# Are we being forced to go electric?



## gavroche (14 Nov 2021)

With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre, I wonder if it is a conspiracy by the automotive industry and the government to force us to buy electric cars?
Mrs G wants to go to Bideford soon to visit our daughter and it is going to cost me £100 just on petrol !!  This is mad. Many families are going to be price out of motoring as electric cars are far too expensive for most of us.
A simple Clio is around £28000 !! 
I despair for the future.


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## winjim (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> I despair for the future


Me too.


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## numbnuts (14 Nov 2021)

I don't think duracells are going to cut it ............


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## Milzy (14 Nov 2021)

I believe so. I understand the supply & demand issue of before but it should have levelled back off now. The government have their green targets to meet. Sadly the poor will end up feeling the extra costs the most as the middle classes buy their swanky model 3’s etc.


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## HMS_Dave (14 Nov 2021)

You'd be pushing the range on that electric car, im not sure you'd make it...


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## cougie uk (14 Nov 2021)

It's not a conspiracy. Some car manufacturers haven't even got EV's in their range.
It's not from the government either - this lot can't plan anything. 

It's more to do with Covid and supply issues and possibly Brexit. And that oil companies always want the best bang for their buck and they see the well is starting to run dry. 

And if you can't afford a new EV - you can buy a second hand one for almost half of that Clio. Prices will come down with supply though - I'm sure petrol cars were expensive to begin.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2021)

Wait until they up the cost of electricity to fill the gap from the lack of fuel tax.


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## gavroche (14 Nov 2021)

At the moment, the Chancellor is on a big winner with lots of extra revenues on fuel duties. The worrying bit though is inflation will also go through the roof with many price increases due to the cost of fuel.
As usual, the rich will benefit the most from all of this and the rest of us will have to survive the best we can.


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## Smokin Joe (14 Nov 2021)

When production volumes of EVs match that of petrol and diesel vehicles prices will fall considerably. They will be far cheaper to produce than vehicles with IC engines, hardly any moving parts compared to IC engines with their hundreds of bits of steel banging and rubbing together to drive pistons that have to headbutt an explosion several thousand times a minute.

No need for a gearbox and clutch and no complicated fuel delivery and exhaust system festooned with gadgets to make sure environment standards are met. All the problems of range and recharging points will be addressed in time. Remember their were no petrol stations till a few years after the first cars were on the road.


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## Slick (14 Nov 2021)

I must admit, I have been holding off changing my car until electric became a realistic option. It's not happened yet and at the current rate of progress, it will be some time yet before they are so I may have one purchase left in me of a petrol car before taking the plunge on electric.


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## Baldy (14 Nov 2021)

I'm afraid the age of mass car ownership has got to come to an end. Everyone wants a great big shiny new car, there are more and more people so there are more and more cars and their screwing the world up. Soon there will just not be enough room for all the cars and roads. Get used to it, you're being priced off the road.


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## slowmotion (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> At the moment, the Chancellor is on a big winner with lots of extra revenues on fuel duties. The worrying bit though is inflation will also go through the roof with many price increases due to the cost of fuel.
> As usual, the rich will benefit the most from all of this and the rest of us will have to survive the best we can.


They won't "benefit", just suffer less than ordinary people, which is the way it's always been. That's why people want to be wealthy, isn't it?


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## Gunk (14 Nov 2021)

We’ll end up like Cuba, the masses will all be driving 40 year old cars. Cars are just not a priority for myself and Mrs Gunk (motorcycles are for me!) we just run older cheaper cars and try and keep them well maintained so they’re reliable (I’ve just spent £1300 on servicing my 100,000 mile 6 year old Golf GTD). I’m buggered if I’m spending £30,000 plus on an electric car.


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## Cycleops (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> I despair for the future.


Never mind, think how you'll be saving the earth as you zoom around in your Super Thunberg Deluxe.


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## gavroche (14 Nov 2021)

Cycleops said:


> Never mind, think how you'll be *saving the earth* as you zoom around in your Super Thunberg Deluxe.


Like I said many times before. the earth is no danger, only its inhabitants are.


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## Cycleops (14 Nov 2021)

Don't despair @gavroche Citroen, your favourite car company, are bringing out the Ami soon, an electric car for €6000.


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## TheDoctor (14 Nov 2021)

It's not quite that bad.
Our last car cost £6000 to buy. We spent £1400 on repairs over 4 years, and we got £1650 as a trade in. That car therefore cost us £120 a month in depreciation and repairs, and another £50 a month in fuel.
I can lease a brand new Nissan Leaf for £210, with no repairs, no road tax (yes, I know) and powered off overnight cheap electricity.


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## Chris S (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre, I wonder if it is a conspiracy by the automotive industry and the government to force us to buy electric cars?


I can remember the outrage when petrol reached £1 a litre in the 1990s. Some garages had to change their pumps because they could only cope with a 2-digit price. I don't drive anymore so if it is a conspiracy to get people out of petrol cars then it's working.


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## midlife (14 Nov 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> It's not quite that bad.
> Our last car cost £6000 to buy. We spent £1400 on repairs over 4 years, and we got £1650 as a trade in. That car therefore cost us £120 a month in depreciation and repairs, and another £50 a month in fuel.
> I can lease a brand new Nissan Leaf for £210, with no repairs, no road tax (yes, I know) and powered off overnight cheap electricity.



There's also the £2200 first payment.


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## gavroche (14 Nov 2021)

Cycleops said:


> Don't despair @gavroche Citroen, your favourite car company, are bringing out the Ami soon, an electric car for €6000.
> 
> View attachment 617818


With a maximum speed of 29 mph and a range of 40 miles, not for me.


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## gzoom (14 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> Sadly the poor will end up feeling the extra costs the most as the middle classes buy their swanky model 3’s etc.



This is a real issue that's been coming for a while. The assumption was EVs would get cheaper over time so priced would fall to a similar level of combustion cars.......

But the reality is the opposite, our very expensive Model X costs us £72k in 2017, to get the same spec car today is going to cost us £113k!!!

The Model Y when it was first introduced in the US cost $50k last year, now its close to $60k.

Its not just Tesla either, even Hyundai/Kia brands you normally associate with value are cashing in on EVs. You need £45k for one in decent spec.

But prices are driven by demand and currently there is no shortage of cash flying around. Tesla has a 1 year wait for the £113k Model X, Porsche cannot build their £120k Taycan fast enough, and Hyundai/Kia have similar demand for EVs.

The 'free market' is currently doing its thing, so unless you can access all the fake money the banks have been printing you are pretty much out of luck.


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## TheDoctor (14 Nov 2021)

midlife said:


> There's also the £2200 first payment.


6 months first payment, so more like £1300.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> With a maximum speed of 29 mph and a range of 40 miles, not for me.



Perfect for 95% of all UK car journeys


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## Gillstay (14 Nov 2021)

You could just react and make your car more economical and thus save the £'s and reduce your footprint.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2021)

To answer the thread title...

No.

No one is being forced to do anything. No one is forced to drive a car. The "need" to drive a car is usually not a genuine need at all, but rather simple excuse by way of justification.

Cars of any type are an environmental nightmare. If youre unhappy paying the (relatively low considering the environmental toll) price to own and drive one, then I have some advice for you - Don't


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## All uphill (14 Nov 2021)

Baldy said:


> I'm afraid the age of mass car ownership has got to come to an end. Everyone wants a great big shiny new car, there are more and more people so there are more and more cars and their screwing the world up. Soon there will just not be enough room for all the cars and roads. Get used to it, you're being priced off the road.


We've come to the conclusion that we'd prefer to manage without owning a car when our current one dies. We are fortunate that we live within walking/cycling distance of all amenities.

Methinks the current rush to buy houses in the country may soon be reversed!


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## Landsurfer (14 Nov 2021)

Volvo has admitted that the production of their all electric cars (Polestar) produces 70% more carbon than their petrol range. 
The carbon payback for their electric cars is 13 years.
The carbon payback for their petrol cars is 8 years.
The continuing world of "Emperors New Clothes” .... continues ....


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## newfhouse (14 Nov 2021)

All that’s happening is that the effective subsidy of your habit is being slightly reduced.


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## gavroche (14 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> To answer the thread title...
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


I totally disagree with you on this instance.Most people need a car for various reasons. In my case, it is to see our children with a range from 12 miles to 300 miles. The other is that my wife can't walk far hence the car is necessary for shopping so our car is used for essential journeys really where public transport is not practical or viable.
I don't think driving about 3000 miles a year is that detrimental to the environment compared to aeroplanes, lorries, big tanker ships and other large vehicles used daily all over the world.
I walk a lot or cycle when on my own to save using the car too so I have a clear conscience.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2021)

Rubbish.

Few people genuinely "need" a car. Few will die if suddenly forced to give them up. Try not driving your car tomorrow - I bet you make it through the day alive, as will your loved ones, so where is this "need"?

We _need_ food. We _need_ water. We _need_ air. Vitrually_ no one_ needs to drive.

Indeed, 17 million households in the UK do not have a car and manage just fine. What makes you a more deserving or special case than them? Nothing. You drive solely for the massive convenience it brings you

Not a single person is born needing to drive a car. Most peoples own life choices dictate this later "need" to drive. As aforementioned, 17 million households either cannot or do not want to, so any "need" you may have is purely a fiction to allow you to carry on without bothering to do anything differently.

The truth is you drive because it is incredibly convenient, and you want to keep it that way. Sadly, you can't even be honest with yourself.


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## Alex321 (14 Nov 2021)

gzoom said:


> This is a real issue that's been coming for a while. The assumption was EVs would get cheaper over time so priced would fall to a similar level of combustion cars.......


Which will almost certainly happen.



> But the reality is the opposite, our very expensive Model X costs us £72k in 2017, to get the same spec car today is going to cost us £113k!!!


"The reality" hasn't come close to happening yet.

Don't expect EVs to be competitive on price until at least 20% of new cars are EVs, maybe more. And that is a few years away yet.

But manufacturers have to keep selling reasonable numbers of cars t stay in business. Their main profit drivers are mass market cars. And when new pure IC cars are no longer allowed to be sold (less than 10 years away), EVs will be priced to fit that market.


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## CXRAndy (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> I don't think driving about 3000 miles a year is that detrimental to the environment compared to aeroplanes, lorries, big tanker ships and other large vehicles used daily all over the world.


That's is a misplaced opinion of your own use is not creating much if anything to the problem of owning an ICE vehicle. 

We all need to reduce our carbon footprint, pollution, waste etc


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## Alex321 (14 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Few people genuinely "need" a car. Few will die if suddenly forced to give them up. Try not driving your car tomorrow - I bet you make it through the day alive, as will your loved ones, so where is this "need"?
> 
> ...


Unlike you, most people do not consider "need" to mean the absolute "will die without it".

Technically, of course that is correct, but in real life terms, it isn't.


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## fossyant (14 Nov 2021)

There will be a large number of older vans worth next to nothing in Greater Manchester as of May next year. My BIL is getting rid of his that they use for work, and just using the car instead. £10 a day. Gone are any plans of converting an older small van into a day van as I'm in the zone


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## gavroche (14 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Few people genuinely "need" a car. Few will die if suddenly forced to give them up. Try not driving your car tomorrow - I bet you make it through the day alive, as will your loved ones, so where is this "need"?
> 
> ...


You seem to have double standards. On one hand, you criticize others for having a car and on the other, you have motorbikes and a petrol guzzling Volvo. 
Yes, my car is incredibly convenient for the reasons I gave earlier and that is why I am not prepared to give it up yet, but I don't abuse the use of it.


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## Landsurfer (14 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Few people genuinely "need" a car. Few will die if suddenly forced to give them up. Try not driving your car tomorrow - I bet you make it through the day alive, as will your loved ones, so where is this "need"?
> 
> ...


I assume you have divested yourself of the Volvo’s .. or ... Your going for your Troll Gold Medal ...


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## Nebulous (14 Nov 2021)

Chris S said:


> I can remember the outrage when petrol reached £1 a litre in the 1990s. Some garages had to change their pumps because they could only cope with a 2-digit price. I don't drive anymore so if it is a conspiracy to get people out of petrol cars then it's working.



I passed my test just as petrol reached £1 a gallon. The papers were claiming people would stop driving rather than pay it, but I never met any of them.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Unlike you, most people do not consider "need" to mean the absolute "will die without it".
> 
> Technically, of course that is correct, but in real life terms, it isn't.


Last time I checked I was living real life... This is the different between need and want. You, like Gavroche, appear not to be able to tell the difference.

But seeing as youre in youre typically contrary mood, why don't you explain why 17 million households don't need to, but you and Gavroche do need to?

Just be honest. You _want_ to, because the alternative is an inconvenient pain in the backside.




Landsurfer said:


> I assume you have divested yourself of the Volvo’s .. or ... Your going for your Troll Gold Medal ...


Wakey wakey! I ain't the one claiming a need to drive a car. 

I own a car, I drive it a bit, and I absolutely, positively, do not _need_ to drive it anywhere. I make no bones about that at all.

In Mrs D's case she uses a wheelchair. Disability, and the need to access stuff like daily radiotherapy etc, is a real need, perhaps the few genuine justifications for using that word in this context


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## Landsurfer (14 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> Last time I checked I was living real life... This is the diffenrent between need and want. You, like Gavroche, appear not to be able to tell the difference.
> 
> But seeing as youre in youre typically contrary mood, why don't you explain why 17 million households don't need to, but you and Gavroche do need to?
> 
> Just be honest. You _want_ to, because the alternative is an inconvenient pain in the backside.


Drago ... Have you been drinking alcohol ??? ....


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## fossyant (14 Nov 2021)

Gav has said his Mrs can't walk far so they need a car.


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## Tenkaykev (14 Nov 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Volvo has admitted that the production of their all electric cars (Polestar) produces 70% more carbon than their petrol range.
> The carbon payback for their electric cars is 13 years.
> The carbon payback for their petrol cars is 8 years.
> The continuing world of "Emperors New Clothes” .... continues ....


But Volvo said as an EV the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint than its comparable petrol version during the 'use phase', though suggests it would take a prolonged period of ownership before it offsets its higher emissions from production.

When charged with clean energy, such as wind power, the lifecycle CO2 footprint of the new electric SUV comes down to approximately 27 tonnes of CO2, compared with 59 tonnes for an XC40 compact SUV powered by a combustion engine
The Swedish car maker said that over a car's lifetime the electric version will become greener overall, though this will only be achieved after covering between 30,000 and 68,400 miles - taking between four and nine years for the average UK motorist.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> But Volvo said as an EV the C40 Recharge has a far lower carbon footprint than its comparable petrol version during the 'use phase', though suggests it would take a prolonged period of ownership before it offsets its higher emissions from production.
> 
> When charged with clean energy, such as wind power, the lifecycle CO2 footprint of the new electric SUV comes down to approximately 27 tonnes of CO2, compared with 59 tonnes for an XC40 compact SUV powered by a combustion engine
> The Swedish car maker said that over a car's lifetime the electric version will become greener overall, though this will only be achieved after covering between 30,000 and 68,400 miles - taking between four and nine years for the average UK motorist.



That rather depends how they choose to calculate the CO2, and ignores other emissions as a consequence of the overall production. It also assumes that sufficient 'green' energy is available, and is actually as 'green' as is claimed.


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## Mike_P (14 Nov 2021)

The battery plays a big part in the cost and battery prices are predicted to tumble. The lack of emissions from the vehicle is a big advantage and their are distinct health benefits in reducing exhaust emissions. I'm trusting my 8 year old tax free Ford Fiesta will last until EVs become afforable.


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## ChangFai (14 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre



Which means it is back to 2009 levels.

In that time, public transport in my area has more than doubled.


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## cougie uk (14 Nov 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Volvo has admitted that the production of their all electric cars (Polestar) produces 70% more carbon than their petrol range.
> The carbon payback for their electric cars is 13 years.
> The carbon payback for their petrol cars is 8 years.
> The continuing world of "Emperors New Clothes” .... continues ....


Your figures are the wrong way round. 
The electric is about 50% less carbon footprint than the petrol version. 

There's no way that drilling petrol, moving it across the world and then burning it in a car is going to be lower carbon than electricity. 

https://www.electrive.com/2021/11/04/volvo-reveals-the-co2-footprint-of-the-c40-recharge/


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## fossyant (14 Nov 2021)

ChangFai said:


> Which means it is back to 2009 levels.
> 
> In that time, public transport in my area has more than doubled.



Public transport is shocking where I live.


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## cougie uk (14 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> Gav has said his Mrs can't walk far so they need a car.


Taxis ? Maybe the family could visit them rather than the other way round. 

Cars are definitely very convenient but if you lost your licence or couldn't afford a car - there's ways around it. What's the average price of a car? That'd pay for a lot of taxis. 

In the future we will probably be in self driving taxis - so private car ownership will probably decline. No idea when though.


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## HMS_Dave (14 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> Public transport is shocking where I live.


Same. In 2009 I had a bus service on a Sunday and bank holiday. I had a bus earlier in the morning. I had a bus later at night. I also had a choice of 2 routes. Now I don't. The service is wnak.


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## Baldy (14 Nov 2021)

Mike_P said:


> The battery plays a big part in the cost and battery prices are predicted to tumble.



I read only last week that Congolese miners are earning as little as 30p an hour. Mining lithium is a very dangerous occupation.


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## shep (14 Nov 2021)

I honestly couldn't see how I could do my job without being able to drive, I visit different sites around the country carrying a load of kit. 
Obviously I wouldn't die if I didn't have a job but I guess not having one wouldn't be very nice.


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## Scoosh (14 Nov 2021)

*MOD NOTE:*
OK thus far (with 1 post Edited) but keep it nice, don't encroach into NACA/NCAP territory and we'll all be .

Thank you.


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## classic33 (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Taxis ? Maybe the family could visit them rather than the other way round.
> 
> Cars are definitely very convenient but if you lost your licence or couldn't afford a car - there's ways around it. What's the average price of a car? That'd pay for a lot of taxis.
> 
> In the future we will probably be in self driving taxis - so private car ownership will probably decline. No idea when though.


Taxi from North Wales to Devon?


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## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> Last time I checked I was living real life... This is the different between need and want. You, like Gavroche, appear not to be able to tell the difference.
> 
> But seeing as youre in youre typically contrary mood, why don't you explain why 17 million households don't need to, but you and Gavroche do need to?
> 
> Just be honest. You _want_ to, because the alternative is an inconvenient pain in the backside.



Any chance you could consider *reading* my post before responding, then perhaps responding to what I actually wrote rather than what you wanted me to write to make your point?


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Taxi from North Wales to Devon?


That's literally what taxi drivers do. You pay them to take you places. In my old job we used to have chauffeur cars to collect us from the airport. They need do driving jobs all over the country. 

Pricey but so is owning a car.


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## Joffey (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre, I wonder if it is a conspiracy by the automotive industry and the government to force us to buy electric cars?
> Mrs G wants to go to Bideford soon to visit our daughter and it is going to cost me £100 just on petrol !!  This is mad. Many families are going to be price out of motoring as electric cars are far too expensive for most of us.
> A simple Clio is around £28000 !!
> I despair for the future.



When we were looking you could get a VW ID3 for £28,500 after the Gov grant and the VW finance contribution. That Clio might reduce when you factor the various incentives in.


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## Tenkaykev (15 Nov 2021)

Baldy said:


> I read only last week that Congolese miners are earning as little as 30p an hour. Mining lithium is a very dangerous occupation.


They’ve been test drilling and evaluating Lithium mining in Cornwall for a few years.
https://britishlithium.co.uk/


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## yello (15 Nov 2021)

All uphill said:


> Methinks the current rush to buy houses in the country may soon be reversed!


Indeedy. Rural life has its many benefits but it does lack, amongst other things, anything remotely resembling an integrated public transport system.

I could catch the school bus to town, take the train to the closest big town... but I'll not be getting home the same day!

Define 'necessary' but owning a car when living in the sticks would fit into many a definition of it.


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## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> Indeedy. Rural life has its many benefits but it does lack, amongst other things, anything remotely resembling an integrated public transport system.
> 
> I could catch the school bus to town, take the train to the closest big town... but I'll not be getting home the same day!
> 
> Define 'necessary' but owning a car when living in the sticks would fit into many a definition of it.


It would, but Drago's argument would be "It is your choice to live in the sticks, you could move to somewhere with decent Public Transport, so it is not necessary".

But his argument is based on people not "needing" anything more than the basics to keep them alive. Which is not considered to be correct by most people, and hasn't been since biblical times - the statement "Man does not live by bread alone" comes from the Old Testament.


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## Landsurfer (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Your figures are the wrong way round.
> The electric is about 50% less carbon footprint than the petrol version.
> 
> There's no way that drilling petrol, moving it across the world and then burning it in a car is going to be lower carbon than electricity.
> ...


Where does the electricity come from ? Wind power ? Diesel gensets ...........and more diesel gensets ....... and even more diesel gensets .... or green electricity as EON call it ...... 
If your happy with children mining the essential minerals for batteries in the Congo ....... ?????


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## yello (15 Nov 2021)

And of course, living rurally, it would be better all around if I didn't need to travel to the nearest big town at all. If I could get my 'necessities' (however one defines that) more locally, within cycling range even.

Would be nice if people didn't need to be 'forced' into buying electric even.


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Where does the electricity come from ? Wind power ? Diesel gensets ...........and more diesel gensets ....... and even more diesel gensets .... or green electricity as EON call it ......
> If your happy with children mining the essential minerals for batteries in the Congo ....... ?????


To help you get your figures right in future - I'll summarise for you.

According to the life cycle assessment, the C40 Recharge has a CO2 footprint of around 27 tonnes over its entire life cycle if the charging current comes exclusively from clean energy sources. If, on the other hand, the vehicle owner uses the average global energy mix, in which about 60 per cent of electricity is generated from fossil fuels, emissions rise to as much as 50 tonnes of CO2 – with the EU-28 electricity mix, the figure is still 42 tonnes of CO2.

The Volvo XC40 with combustion engine, for example, has 59 tonnes of CO2 over its life cycle. The so-called “end-of-life” emissions and the share of production in the Volvo factories are the same regardless of the type of drive.

So it does depend on the mix of electricity. I'm on a renewables only tariff - so if that was my Volvo - it would be less than 50% of the carbon footprint of the ICE version.

And nobody should be happy about kids mining - but where's your outrage for laptops, phones, bike torches ? It's the same battery technology.

Don't forget - petrol isn't nice for kids either - not when its oil or when it's burnt and clogging their lungs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42168902

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...fumes-children-health-air-pollution-emissions


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## ClichéGuevara (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> To help you get your figures right in future - I'll summarise for you.
> 
> According to the life cycle assessment, the C40 Recharge has a CO2 footprint of around 27 tonnes over its entire life cycle if the charging current comes exclusively from clean energy sources. If, on the other hand, the vehicle owner uses the average global energy mix, in which about 60 per cent of electricity is generated from fossil fuels, emissions rise to as much as 50 tonnes of CO2 – with the EU-28 electricity mix, the figure is still 42 tonnes of CO2.
> 
> ...



If you're looking at full balance, 'green' energy, on top of the environmental and social damage in areas where the raw materials are extracted, rely on back from localised generators around the Country to cope with fluctuations, and you'd also need to account for the improvements in technology and lifestyles, as well as the massive reductions in the impacts of environmental disasters that fossil fuels have brought about.


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## classic33 (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> That's literally what taxi drivers do. You pay them to take you places. In my old job we used to have chauffeur cars to collect us from the airport. They need do driving jobs all over the country.
> 
> Pricey but so is owning a car.


Many will take you for a ride.

At roughly £2.50 a mile* it'd be one expensive taxi ride.

*Quite probably more given the journey length, and the fact it'd be one way only for the taxi driver.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

I think we are being _encouraged_ to buy electric.

But the whole idea that EVs are a 1:1 environmentally friendly replacement for fossil fueled vehicles is flawed. Of course the automotive industry want it to be that way because they will be able to continue existing in a similar form. And people at large want it to be that way because they will be able to continue to have the convenience of a personal vehicle for every trip, no matter how trivial.

But the only effective environmental impact will be for people to dial down their "need/want" meter, and for levels private ownership of vehicles to be reduced enabling fewer, more intensively used, vehicles out there to provide transport services as needed.

I'm sceptical whether that will happen. People are too darn lazy and entitled. (Is this getting too NACA-ish)?


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Many will take you for a ride.
> 
> At roughly £2.50 a mile* it'd be one expensive taxi ride.
> 
> *Quite probably more given the journey length, and the fact it'd be one way only for the taxi driver.


If you had any sense - you'll book ahead and arrange a fee first. You'd not do it on the spur of the moment. 

The point is - having a private car isn't the only way to live. I'll bet most of us had a lot less access to cars in our parents time. Life went on. People got around.


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## classic33 (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> If you had any sense - you'll book ahead and arrange a fee first. You'd not do it on the spur of the moment.
> 
> The point is - having a private car isn't the only way to live. I'll bet most of us had a lot less access to cars in our parents time. Life went on. People got around.


Emergencies can't be planned for. And some folk have vehicles adapted to suit disabilities. There's more wheelchairs visible today than there were thirty years ago. I doubt the number of people requiring one has increased, more that they're getting out more.

I can't drive, so no car to worry about.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

Baldy said:


> I'm afraid the age of mass car ownership has got to come to an end. Everyone wants a great big shiny new car, there are more and more people so there are more and more cars and their screwing the world up. Soon there will just not be enough room for all the cars and roads. Get used to it, you're being priced off the road.


Would not mind so much but with an awful public transport system currently , it’s still cheaper to drive into the city than get the train . Bus is cheaper mind but I need two buses to get to my work and it would take me twice as long. That their is why folk are still driving vehicles added to the fact that workers have to commute further for jobs. I know plenty driving from one side of the central belt to the other, just for work.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> If you had any sense - you'll book ahead and arrange a fee first. You'd not do it on the spur of the moment.
> 
> The point is - having a private car isn't the only way to live. I'll bet most of us had a lot less access to cars in our parents time. Life went on. People got around.


That will be a time when everyone worked locally. We live in a totally different world now !


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## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

Oh and quell surprise  . We did have conversation about chopping in the cabriolet e class as trade ins are good just now, and maybe choosing something else hybrid or maybe an EV. However needs enough room for dogs as well. EQC maybe


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## SpokeyDokey (15 Nov 2021)

Reading through the thread I am wondering how on Earth wind energy is clean energy. Surely, at best, it can only be_ relatively_ clean energy with all the construction materials and human activity needed to build the whirly things.


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## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Reading through the thread I am wondering how on Earth wind energy is clean energy. Surely, at best, it can only be_ relatively_ clean energy with all the construction materials and human activity needed to build the whirly things.


This is very true. There is no such thing as completely clean usable energy, it is all relative.


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## yello (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> That will be a time when everyone worked locally. We live in a totally different world now !



Times do change, we've certainly become more centralised in our approach over the years; jobs, shopping, etc. It's one of the things any 'solution' needs to address. That is, a decentralising or spreading out. Car ownership, and the 'need' thereof', has to be seen in a broader context and that context (and indeed the numerous contexts/layers) addressed.

I see Paris's mayor (Anne Hidalgo) is talking of a '15 minute city'. That is, everything needed being within 15 minutes walk/cycle... or was it helicopter? Whatever. Anyways, that's cool to aim for and address it in a urban environment but my rural environment sees the deemed necessary local bakers closing down in high numbers in the last 10 years. There's many things I can get to in a 15 minute walk but a bakery, shop, doctor, school, whatever, is not one of them. That said, there's a brave little shoe shop battling on in our closest village. I think she's long since past retirement age and must be selling off old stock. Something to do rather than a business per se.

Point is, there needs to be encouragement for businesses relocating, providing jobs and stimulus to local economies.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> That will be a time when everyone worked locally. We live in a totally different world now !


We made this different world. And we made it over a relatively short period of time. So we are likely to have to un-make it, and make a new one. Or suffer the consequences.


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## yello (15 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> And we made it over a relatively short period of time.



George Monbiot touched on that point recently in an article. I think he actually classes it amongst the 'only hopes' (I'd have to reread the article) Basically, we've brought this situation on ourselves quite quickly so we can just as quickly unmake it.


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## mistyoptic (15 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> George Monbiot touched on that point recently in an article. I think he actually classes it amongst the 'only hopes' (I'd have to reread the article) Basically, we've brought this situation on ourselves quite quickly so we can just as quickly unmake it.


That pre supposes that the entitled masses will willingly give up their vehicle enabled autonomy. Looking around me at the large number of X5, Q7, Defender, and other behemoths, mostly being single occupied, I hold out very little hope for the “unmaking”


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## SydZ (15 Nov 2021)

I’ve moved home twice in my life to cut down on commuting. I have either walked or cycled to work for close on two decades. We have gone from a two car family to a one car family and ever that car sees less than a quarter of the annual average mileage.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> George Monbiot touched on that point recently in an article. I think he actually classes it amongst the 'only hopes' (I'd have to reread the article) Basically, we've brought this situation on ourselves *quite quickly *so we can just as quickly unmake it.


It's my lifetime really. I think the huge "whoosh" of people all owning cars, jobs not necessarily being local really happened over the 60s and 70s, maybe the 80s a bit too. 

My dad's working life: Started working in a factory that was a major local employer (50s) cycled to work and got a car as soon as he could afford. Moved to an aspirational suburb, owned car, drove 20 miles or so to work, raised family (60s, 70s). Heavy manufacturing collapsed. Ended up as a consultant driving all over the place or working abroad (80s, 90s).

Problem is that it was a change that made life nicer. It's nice to own a car and drive around in it. It was all juicy carrot and no stick. The reverse needs to have a degree of niceness or change will be sporadic at best. Or there needs to be a big stick (and maybe a small, shrivelled carrot)


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## byegad (15 Nov 2021)

When I was born*, the street where I lived, some 50 houses had three car owning houses. twenty years later it had nearly 50. 

It's an uncomfortable fact that in the future many of us will no longer be able to afford a car. 

How will we be able to travel, you ask? Well car hire, pedal power and vastly improved public transport will take up some of the slack and for the rest people will have to travel less.

This will go down with the general public with all of the aerodynamic qualities as a lead balloon. Which is why we have not made, as a planet, the progress in fighting climate change that we could/should have made.


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## HMS_Dave (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> If you had any sense - you'll book ahead and arrange a fee first. You'd not do it on the spur of the moment.
> 
> The point is - having a private car isn't the only way to live. I'll bet most of us had a lot less access to cars in our parents time. Life went on. People got around.


I agree, private cars are not the only way to live. But a taxi would be an exceptionally expensive way to travel. A quick look on a taxi price comparison website and a taxi from N.Wales to Bideford would cost £326 at the cheapest, one way, which is a small car... A larger car could cost nearer £500, punishing for wheelchair users. You may be able to wrangle a cheaper price if arranged in advance, but then you still have to get back. I get the point you were making however.

Council planners and businesses still build with the car in mind. Retail parks on the fringes of a town, business parks on greenbelt, new housing developments in villages in the middle of nowhere... They seem to be banking on the future being largely the same as it is now with personal car usage, maybe they are right...


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## Landsurfer (15 Nov 2021)

Just don't get the taxi to hospital ...... that won’t work out well.


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## Milzy (15 Nov 2021)

I hope fuel goes higher as it will pi$$ off the pick up truck owner next door.


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## IanSmithCSE (15 Nov 2021)

Good morning,

I recently heard about ZipCharge, it is a horrible idea as it stands, it's an 8kWh battery that you charge up at home/in the office then plug into your car to charge it up.

https://www.zipcharge.global/

It is sort of targeted at replacing today's use, say 20-40 miles, by people who have an electric car, do few miles and do not have access to street charging points or off road parking.

Although; _Electricity into the national grid->charge battery->discharge battery into another battery to charge that one_ is not exactly the most eco-friendly route.

If the functionality became a factory option, a small battery pack that is removeable and portable then it could help EV adoption in many cases. However it may be that what is portable to a 21 year old body builder may not be so portable for other potential users, thinking 10 flights of stairs as the lift is broken.

Bye

Ian


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## FishFright (15 Nov 2021)

mistyoptic said:


> That pre supposes that the entitled masses will willingly give up their vehicle enabled autonomy. Looking around me at the large number of X5, Q7, Defender, and other behemoths, mostly being single occupied, I hold out very little hope for the “unmaking”



Which also pre supposes that car owners will get a choice. At some point it won't be left to the market or our descendants will have to suffer the consequence.


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## Sharky (15 Nov 2021)

One thing that worries me, will be the availability of petrol stations in the future. If you notice, most car registrations are less then 10yrs old. So if this trend continues, electric cares will soon become the majority.

But spare a thought for those that buy a car and keep it until it dies. Our run around is now almost 20yrs old and good for a few more. Will probably scrap it when it fails the mot, but anybody buying a car today, could easily still have it in 20 yrs time - 2040 onwards. Will they still be able to buy petrol or will service stations be shut down?

Won't affect me, as I will not be driving (possibly) when I am in my 90's.


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## Biking mum (15 Nov 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good morning,
> 
> I recently heard about ZipCharge, it is a horrible idea as it stands, it's an 8kWh battery that you charge up at home/in the office then plug into your car to charge it up.
> 
> ...



I have been looking for things like this. We dropped to a one-car family last year, with my husband and I using our bikes to get around as we work from home. We would swap to electric but nowhere to recharge at work or home so I'm clueless as to how to make a swap to electrics.


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## Landsurfer (15 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> I hope fuel goes higher as it will pi$$ off the pick up truck owner next door.


And everyone on a low income that eats food ...... but i’m sure you’ll be fine ...!!!


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## gavroche (15 Nov 2021)

Personally, I think car ownership is here to stay, simply because of the freedom it gives you. Many may cut down to just one car and the method of propulsion will be electric or hydrogen. Motoring is massive business so the country cannot afford to lose it. 
Public transport is just not happening as it prices itself out in the UK. Unless it becomes more affordable and concentrates on providing a service rather than money driven, it won't happen.


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## gbb (15 Nov 2021)

Sadly, i suspect higher fuel prices have little or no effect on those that flaunt..or chose, or may e have to have big SUVs, cars, trucks etc. I suspect many are company owned, fuel is paid for by the company so the driver doesnt often give a whatnot....it never ceases to amaze me how many expensive cars being driven in a way that orobably doesnt return 20 or 30 mpg...but the above perhaps explains it.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> Personally, I think car ownership is here to stay, simply because of the freedom it gives you. Many may cut down to just one car and the method of propulsion will be electric or hydrogen. Motoring is massive business so the country cannot afford to lose it.
> Public transport is just not happening as it prices itself out in the UK. Unless it becomes more affordable and concentrates on providing a service rather than money driven, it won't happen.


Even without considering carbon emissions, I suspect that is an impossible dream. There just aren't enough of the necessary elements required to build all the batteries and fuel cells and magnets and motors so on to replace all the existing cars with electric/hydrogen cars.

Motoring may be a massive business but we may not be able to afford to keep it.

It was nice while it lasted. As was the horse industry which was pretty ginormous.


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## gbb (15 Nov 2021)

One condender for the hoi polloi would be rental of EVs. I could see my local shopping centre having 10/20 cars on it, chargdd, ready to go, rent for the day, the hour, wharever, take it back when youre done. Multiply that up and down the country in car parks, it might suit many people who only occasionally need a car.


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## Baldy (15 Nov 2021)

Sharky said:


> One thing that worries me, will be the availability of petrol stations in the future. If you notice, most car registrations are less then 10yrs old. So if this trend continues, electric cares will soon become the majority.
> 
> But spare a thought for those that buy a car and keep it until it dies. Our run around is now almost 20yrs old and good for a few more. Will probably scrap it when it fails the mot, but anybody buying a car today, could easily still have it in 20 yrs time - 2040 onwards. Will they still be able to buy petrol or will service stations be shut down?
> 
> Won't affect me, as I will not be driving (possibly) when I am in my 90's.



I may be reading it wrong or remembering it wrong, but I think 2030 is the cut off date for petrol/desal cars. So, service stations will be charging stations long before that date.


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## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

The OP appeared to suggest that fuel prices are going up as a way to "force" people into EVs. The reality is that the oil price has rocketed in the last year through a combination of factors, and the recent run on the fuel stations driven by media scaremongering has given suppliers an opportunity to capitalise. Fuel duty is fixed per litre although VAT increases with purchase price. Given the three-fold increase in oil prices you can see how little the fuel price is driven by input costs, since the overall increase is nothing like that. Let's not forget that gas prices are also high, which is driving electricity prices up too. This is a global economy situation, not some clandestine conspiracy to sell more EVs.


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## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

Baldy said:


> I may be reading it wrong or remembering it wrong, but I think 2030 is the cut off date for petrol/desal cars. So, service stations will be charging stations long before that date.


That is the cut off date for the sale of new wholly IC cars. Existing ones on the road will still be usable, and hybrids will still be allowed to be sold new until 2035. The aim is to have all cars & vans on the road be zero tailpipe emission by 2050. 

But as you say, we can expect filling stations to move away from stocking petrol & diesel for cars & vans well before that final 2050 date. 

How many will go out of business, vs how many will become charging stations, remains to be seen, but I would personally expect most to go out of business, on the basis that most people will charge their cars at home or the office, or will want to charge them somewhere they can do something else while it is charging (such as having a meal or doing some shopping).


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

This just popped up on my twitter and it seems relevant so I'll throw it in.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...c-car-revolution-and-embed-chinas-lead-report

_The electric car revolution will stall in the West if supplies of crucial battery elements like lithium fail to keep up with the forecast huge increase in demand. This will drive battery prices higher, decimate profit margins, and the coveted $100 per kWh battery, which would have signaled the arrival of affordable green vehicles, will remain on the launch pad._​​_“Western weaknesses in lithium-ion supply chains will slow electric vehicle adoption and demonstrate China’s dominance of the EV (electric vehicle) market,” according to a report from GlobalData. a leading data and analytics company._​​_This kind of pressure might also delay Tesla’s long promised “affordable” $25,000 electric car._​


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## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

Why would or should petrol stations become charging stations? You go to a petrol station because they have a bulk stock of a dangerous product and can dispense it safely in small quantities. You can get electricity in other ways without needing to go to a place that has only this purpose. I don't go to a special place to charge my phone, or drills, or anything else. Yes, scale is different but if charging takes so much longer than refuelling then I want to be doing something else whilst it's happening. Charging has to become a secondary objective of going somewhere - like shopping, eating out, cinema, whatever. I don't want to have to go to a centralised charging station and then make use of whatever facilities they have there whilst I wait.


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## Pale Rider (15 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> To answer the thread title...
> 
> No.
> 
> ...



I don't want to get into a game of genuine need top trumps, but the only person entitled to lecture others on car use is the person who does without one.

Which, I'm guessing, disqualifies about 99% of contributors to this thread.


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## IanSmithCSE (15 Nov 2021)

gbb said:


> One condender for the hoi polloi would be rental of EVs. I could see my local shopping centre having 10/20 cars on it, chargdd, ready to go, rent for the day, the hour, wharever, take it back when youre done. Multiply that up and down the country in car parks, it might suit many people who only occasionally need a car.


I can see this working for a while, as long as it is a new idea or the only option ....

In the mid 1990s I used to rent a car as there was hire company 10 minutes walk away and a Ford dealer that did hires even closer, but I moved to owning one for cost and time reasons.

The £500, or whatever the hire company chooses, accident damage that they will reserve on your credit card, assuming that you have one to cover a broken wing mirror etc. If you have a 3 year old car you may very well get a new mirror off eBay and fit it yourself, the hire company may charge you the main dealer parts and labour rate, it's the same for that scratch that you didn't notice.

Even if these costs get built into the standard hire price but as they haven't been on ICE hire cars why would they on EVs, you still have to get to/from the collection/return point, fine for me I can cycle but I am not 75 with two dodgy hips.


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## Baldy (15 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> That is the cut off date for the sale of new wholly IC cars. Existing ones on the road will still be usable, and hybrids will still be allowed to be sold new until 2035. The aim is to have all cars & vans on the road be zero tailpipe emission by 2050.



2050, that's no good we'll all be toast by then.


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## figbat (15 Nov 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I don't want to get into a game of genuine need top trumps, but the only person entitled to lecture others on car use is the person does without one.
> 
> Which, I'm guessing, disqualifies about 99% of contributors to this thread.


Indeed. I have continuously owned at least one car for 33 years; I know no different. Some good friends of ours are the same age and approximate social standing as my wife and I, a married couple with a child at secondary school, both with jobs that entail domestic and international travel, with elderly and ill relatives and neither has a driving licence. They appear to have managed so far.


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## Dogtrousers (15 Nov 2021)

gbb said:


> One condender for the hoi polloi would be rental of EVs. I could see my local shopping centre having 10/20 cars on it, chargdd, ready to go, rent for the day, the hour, wharever, take it back when youre done. Multiply that up and down the country in car parks, it might suit many people who only occasionally need a car.


Like Zip cars (but all electric).

I was all set to move over to Zip car use when it became clear that my car was headed for the knacker's yard. 

It was only the fact that someone I know happened to have a little city runaround car up for sale that saved me from being able to lecture people on how well I was doing without a car.


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## byegad (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> Personally, I think car ownership is here to stay, simply because of the freedom it gives you. Many may cut down to just one car and the method of propulsion will be electric or hydrogen. Motoring is massive business so the country cannot afford to lose it.
> Public transport is just not happening as it prices itself out in the UK. Unless it becomes more affordable and concentrates on providing a service rather than money driven, it won't happen.


Back in the 50s buses and trains were indeed a viable means of transport. You could get a bus from our house into town for 2d (remember them?), and parking was 6d, but only if you couldn't park on the street, which most did, for free. The relative cost of owning a car to go shopping was much more then than now in terms of income. Only the well off could buy a car. 

As fewer people can afford to drive in the future I'd hope the cost and frequency of public transport will again make it viable choices for many. I've been retired 15 years, but in my working life I lived in a village and always needed a car or motorbike to get to work, until in my last two jobs, cycling became a viable choice.


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## Cycleops (15 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Which is not considered to be correct by most people, and hasn't been since biblical times - the statement "Man does not live by bread alone" comes from the Old Testament.


But they had camels and donkeys back then


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Nov 2021)

Cycleops said:


> But they had camels and donkeys back then



Still do in Yorkshire


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## tyred (15 Nov 2021)

Cycleops said:


> But they had camels and donkeys back then


There was nothing worse back in the day than coming out to go to work on a cold morning and finding your camel dying off if you applied too much choke.


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## tyred (15 Nov 2021)

Until such time as people are giving their unloved electric cars away for free I will have to stick to petrol. 

Pay money for a car?


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## pawl (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> If you had any sense - you'll book ahead and arrange a fee first. You'd not do it on the spur of the moment.
> 
> The point is - having a private car isn't the only way to live. I'll bet most of us had a lot less access to cars in our parents time. Life went on. People got around.



Back then there used to be good local bus services and loca rail services The only place I can get to from my village is Leicester If I want to visit the out of town shopping complex would mean a bus out of Leicester 
Hinckley or Coalville which we visited for the the weekly shop has no direct service.
We have solved the problem by using Tesco home deliveries.On line cycle stores for parts and consumables .Amazon for clothing ,paint etc etc So have reduced my car usage considerably also my spending in the local community I suppose I can now be criticised for not supporting local shops we don’t have 

The car has only been used for various hospital visits to the three Leicester hospitals for various cancer treatments and follow up. Scan results Mrs p was given the option of hospital visit or a telephone consultations She chose telephone.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

byegad said:


> Back in the 50s buses and trains were indeed a viable means of transport. You could get a bus from our house into town for 2d (remember them?), and parking was 6d, but only if you couldn't park on the street, which most did, for free. The relative cost of owning a car to go shopping was much more then than now in terms of income. Only the well off could buy a car.
> 
> As fewer people can afford to drive in the future I'd hope the cost and frequency of public transport will again make it viable choices for many. I've been retired 15 years, but in my working life I lived in a village and always needed a car or motorbike to get to work, until in my last two jobs, cycling became a viable choice.


Unfortunately successive governments have gone out of their way to sell of all these public services to their rich pals. So now these services need to turn a profit .
My experience of transport services in Spain and France is that it’s all quite joined up and cheap.
I agree with the message coming through in some of these posts , the reliance on cars needs to reduce however to do that I’m not sure, other than banning them from town/city centres .

Just as a side not my middle son has just got some seasonal work , however he is on a 50 mile round trip approximately . About 35/40 min car travel each way. Public transport would take him , double that nearly each way .
Got to be able to travel to where the work these days.


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## All uphill (15 Nov 2021)

We've been telling our neighbours that we won't be replacing our old car; we'll rely on walking, cycling and the occasional hire car. It will be a relief to be free of all the headaches involved in car ownership when we already drive it less than we cycle.

I'm loving the looks of pity from neighbours who cannot imagine going without a car unless absolutely penniless. One person responded with anger - he has just bought a new hybrid for his 3000 miles per year.

The point I'm trying to make is that car ownership has become the default, even for people living in congested small towns.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

Very true, we went down to one car about 12 yrs ago . My cycle commute took of from then. It was a way to save money ( spent it on bike parts ) . It was hard at times , used the train quite a bit . So I could get back sharpish for school pick ups etc . Wife finished uni started up her own business, we had lots more money. Inevitable that we needed another car , to ferry kids to clubs etc . It made things easier but it also brought along hassles. I’d give up all my cars if it was doable but it’s just impossible at the moment . Wife needs a car for business , however an EV would work for that. I don’t strictly need a car to get to work but I can’t also rely on cycling alone especially in winter. As bridge gets closed a lot.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Nov 2021)

Congested by that very car ownership.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

Just another thought, you know if the trains ran earlier in the morning ,I would be tempted to more by that ? Don’t know why we can’t have a 24hr service ?


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## BrumJim (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just another thought, you know if the trains ran earlier in the morning ,I would be tempted to more by that ? Don’t know why we can’t have a 24hr service ?


Maintenance.


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> Personally, I think car ownership is here to stay, simply because of the freedom it gives you. Many may cut down to just one car and the method of propulsion will be electric or hydrogen. Motoring is massive business so the country cannot afford to lose it.
> Public transport is just not happening as it prices itself out in the UK. Unless it becomes more affordable and concentrates on providing a service rather than money driven, it won't happen.



It's getting a bit rubbish though isn't it ? Congested roads. Nowhere to park ? Driving isn't as much fun as it used to be. It's definitely on the wane.


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Nov 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Congested by that very car ownership.




Yep. In 1960 there were about 5 million cars on UK roads, now it's around 36.5 million. That's just unsustainable in terms of road space that has to be allocated (or stolen from peds and cyclists), pollution and road deaths.


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Unfortunately successive governments have gone out of their way to sell of all these public services to their rich pals. So now these services need to turn a profit .
> My experience of transport services in Spain and France is that it’s all quite joined up and cheap.
> I agree with the message coming through in some of these posts , the reliance on cars needs to reduce however to do that I’m not sure, other than banning them from town/city centres .
> 
> ...



50 miles a day ? Has he worked out how much that's costing him ? 

Let's hope business becomes more local after Covid. Silly traveling into a city to do something you can do at your kitchen table.


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## dave r (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Unfortunately successive governments have gone out of their way to sell of all these public services to their rich pals. So now these services need to turn a profit .
> My experience of transport services in Spain and France is that it’s all quite joined up and cheap.
> I agree with the message coming through in some of these posts , the reliance on cars needs to reduce however to do that I’m not sure, other than banning them from town/city centres .
> 
> ...



For rerasons I won't go into here I've had to swap I lot of tourneys onto the bus, i don't want to but I've had to, what I'm finding is most journeys are taking twice as long compared to the car, something that takes half an hourt in the car will take an hour on the bus, we're also very retricted in where we can go, a lot of places we'd go in the car we can't get to by bus. We were car free up until 2012 and managed OK, but now we've got used to the convenience of the car we would be reluctant to go back to being car free, but that is the problem with trying to get people to move away from their cars.


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## All uphill (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It's getting a bit rubbish though isn't it ? Congested roads. Nowhere to park ? Driving isn't as much fun as it used to be. It's definitely on the wane.


It dawned on me about 20 years ago that I no longer enjoyed driving. I'm ashamed to say that I still wanted a shiny car (often a Saab) as some kind of identity thing.


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## BrumJim (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It's getting a bit rubbish though isn't it ? Congested roads. Nowhere to park ? Driving isn't as much fun as it used to be. It's definitely on the wane.


I'd like to agree. However I have been to far too many places where city congestion is worse than the UK, and people still chose private transport over public.


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## Chap sur le velo (15 Nov 2021)

I was reading about a tipping point allowing Governments to ban things. E.g. when I was growing up Smokers were very vociferous about their right to smoke and they weren't going to have it taken away. Smokers were often seen as fun loving types and associated with entertainment, seduction and yes even sportsmen were often seen having a drag.
Meanwhile a large proportion of the population gave the habit up and moved to the anti smoking side and the government were able to impose a ban in public places with little real opposition, something that surprised me at the time. Of course it seems perfectly sane today but I recall not predicting that even though I've never been a smoker.

The numbers of Electric and Hybrid cars grow every year. And a bit like the anti smokers the owners are often evangelical about it. (EG Tesla cars are both one of the least reliable vehicles on the road, and the most popular brand with their owners!). When the moment is right a law can be passed that looks surprisingly draconian to some of us today. But I'm sure we will look back and wonder what took so long?


----------



## Cycleops (15 Nov 2021)

Considering that personal motorised transport has only been available for the great unwashed for about the last hundred years it's a amazing that so many now find it indispensable. What did people do before when travel was much more arduous? 
Now there are very good fast transport links, apart maybe for some rural areas and home grocery delivery is available. Plus there's Uber.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (15 Nov 2021)

Cycleops said:


> Plus there's Uber.



And car clubs, where you only pay for what you use. Massive annual savings over owning a car that spends 95% of its time on the driveway.


----------



## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> 50 miles a day ? Has he worked out how much that's costing him ?
> 
> Let's hope business becomes more local after Covid. Silly traveling into a city to do something you can do at your kitchen table.


It’s temporary and we may see if I can get him closer to home but he will still need to drive ! PS not everyone works can work from home /sigh


----------



## yello (15 Nov 2021)

I was going to mention car clubs and the like. Car sharing, official or otherwise. They can be a part of any solution.

I had a friend in Berlin who, along with a group of friends, started their own car share scheme and, yes, it ended in tears BUT it didn't need to have. It was started with the best of intentions, and genuine buy-in . Maybe it just needed a little more acceptance and understanding, give and take... and praps a little less selfishness on the part of some. Dunno. Point is, it could have worked!


----------



## gavroche (15 Nov 2021)

Cycleops said:


> Considering that personal motorised transport has only been available for the great unwashed for about the last hundred years it's a amazing that so many now find it indispensable.* What did people do before when travel was much more arduous?*
> Now there are very good fast transport links, apart maybe for some rural areas and home grocery delivery is available. Plus there's Uber.


Before the advent of the motorcar, most people only travelled within 10 miles of their homes as methods of traveling were slow ( horses) and the roads were awful. Then came the bicycle which made it easier and faster but roads were still pretty bad until the car came along and the authorities had to make better roads eventually.


----------



## Gillstay (15 Nov 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Where does the electricity come from ? Wind power ? Diesel gensets ...........and more diesel gensets ....... and even more diesel gensets .... or green electricity as EON call it ......
> If your happy with children mining the essential minerals for batteries in the Congo ....... ?????


As your driving around have you missed the wind and solar farms, the panels on houses ?


----------



## shep (15 Nov 2021)

Any of you given any thought to the service industry?
We all want mobile phones, electricity etc who fixes and maintains the infrastructure do you think?

Maintenance engineers that's who, how do you think they get from site to site and what alternative is there, an engineer employed local to every site on standby?

Some lads I know will take 2 days travelling to the Highlands to fix a fault but that's the world we live in, can't have it all.


----------



## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

Gillstay said:


> As your driving around have you missed the wind and solar farms, the panels on houses ?


Plenty wind turbines round my way but from what I’ve gleaned there is still not enough !!


----------



## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Any of you given any thought to the service industry?
> We all want mobile phones, electricity etc who fixes and maintains the infrastructure do you think?
> 
> Maintenance engineers that's who, how do you think they get from site to site and what alternative is there, an engineer employed local to every site on standby?
> ...


Apparently we can all work from home


----------



## shep (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Apparently we can all work from home


Yeah right, who looks after the cons or the school kids or fixes your phone transmitters, that's just the people in my house and up until recently patients (wife now retired).


----------



## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Yeah right, who looks after the cons or the school kids or fixes your phone transmitters, that's just the people in my house and up until recently patients (wife now retired).


 Not disagreeing with you as maintenance engineer myself I know where your coming from !


----------



## shep (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not disagreeing with you as maintenance engineer myself I know where your coming from !


I realise that and agree with you.


----------



## classic33 (15 Nov 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I don't want to get into a game of genuine need top trumps, but the only person entitled to lecture others on car use is the person who does without one.
> 
> Which, I'm guessing, disqualifies about 99% of contributors to this thread.


Don't own a car, can't drive and I'd not lecture anyone on their others on car use.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> Before the advent of the motorcar, most people only travelled within 10 miles of their homes as methods of traveling were slow ( horses) and the roads were awful. Then came the bicycle which made it easier and faster but* roads were still pretty bad until the car came along *and the authorities had to make better roads eventually.



It was actually the cycling lobby that pushed for better road surfaces first.

It's ironic that if they hadn't, the motor car would probably have never become as popular as it was useless on the old cart tracks.


----------



## Cycleops (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> Before the advent of the motorcar, most people only travelled within 10 miles of their homes as methods of traveling were slow ( horses) and the roads were awful.


Maybe around 200 years ago but before Mr Beeching swung his axe branch lines served a huge amount of even villages.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (15 Nov 2021)

glasgowcyclist said:


> And car clubs, where you only pay for what you use. Massive annual savings over owning a car that spends 95% of its time on the driveway.



More likely obstructing a road


----------



## Gunk (15 Nov 2021)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Reading through the thread I am wondering how on Earth wind energy is clean energy. Surely, at best, it can only be_ relatively_ clean energy with all the construction materials and human activity needed to build the whirly things.



The irony is that it’s not clean, most people are unaware that there a number of huge gas powered generators across the country which trip in when the solar and wind power do not produce enough electricity at peak times.


----------



## Gunk (15 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Any of you given any thought to the service industry?
> We all want mobile phones, electricity etc who fixes and maintains the infrastructure do you think?
> 
> Maintenance engineers that's who, how do you think they get from site to site and what alternative is there, an engineer employed local to every site on standby?
> ...



I can’t do my job without a car.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (15 Nov 2021)

Gunk said:


> The irony is that it’s not clean, most people are unaware that there a number of huge gas powered generators across the country which trip in when the solar and wind power do not produce enough electricity at peak times.



It's worse, as they're not all gas, some are diesel. They're effectively old train engines parked near a sub station. I doubt they get counted in any CO2 inventory.

You can add in the lost farmland, and infrastructure for cables and haul roads to that too. I also doubt many have the decommissioning factored in.


----------



## Gunk (15 Nov 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's worse, as they're not all gas, some are diesel. They're effectively old train engines parked near a sub station. I doubt they get counted in any CO2 inventory.



You’re right, some are train engines converted to run on gas, I know a chap who maintains them.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (15 Nov 2021)

Gunk said:


> You’re right, some are train engines converted to run on gas, I know a chap who maintains them.



Not all run on gas, some are still diesel, or worse.


----------



## MrGrumpy (15 Nov 2021)

I’ve said elsewhere just build some more nuclear power stations and be done with it


----------



## mistyoptic (15 Nov 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Not all run on gas, some are still diesel, or worse.


Remember going on a tour of Trawsfynnydd nuclear power station years ago. They showed us the power plant from an HS125 which was their backup


----------



## Arrowfoot (15 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre, I wonder if it is a conspiracy by the automotive industry and the government to force us to buy electric cars?


It more to do with market forces. The fossil fuel industry are less likely to invest on new reserves and extraction methods when the agenda around the World is on renewables and penalties are high on carbon emission.

There will come a time when petrol stations are few and far between, prices become higher. Still early though but when the momentum picks up, it will move fast. For the time being, it will go up and down with cartel movements but overall, it will slowly trend upwards.

Btw the recent fuel delivery / driver shortage issue is not driving fuel cost. Fuel prices are going up around the world.


----------



## Arrowfoot (15 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’ve said elsewhere just build some more nuclear power stations and be done with it


It will come to that.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (15 Nov 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> It will come to that.



Or better still Fusion - once that's solved I can't imagine a world short of power.

Edited as I had typed Fission instead of Fusion - dopey me!


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (15 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Taxi from North Wales to Devon?


How about
taxi to main line train station
train to Devon on a decent rail system
taxi to accommodation - or a hired electric car if you need to be mobile??


----------



## Ming the Merciless (15 Nov 2021)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Or better still Fission - once that's solved I can't imagine a world short of power.



Fission is what we currently have. Think you mean fusion.


----------



## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Or better still Fission - once that's solved I can't imagine a world short of power.


You mean Fusion. Fission is what we have now for nuclear power stations.


----------



## classic33 (15 Nov 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> How about
> taxi to main line train station
> train to Devon on a decent rail system
> taxi to accommodation - or a hired electric car if you need to be mobile??


Possible, but how many trains in the early hours?


----------



## cougie uk (15 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Possible, but how many trains in the early hours?


What would have happened 50 years ago ? 
What would happen if you'd had a drink that night ?

Yes yes we all know cars are convenient but we've managed to live without for centuries without them. Times change. Humans can adapt.


----------



## classic33 (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What would have happened 50 years ago ?
> What would happen if you'd had a drink that night ?
> 
> Yes yes we all know cars are convenient but we've managed to live without for centuries without them. Times change. Humans can adapt.


Fifty years ago, it'd have been possible to walk home from the pub. Four within an 1/8 mile, now 1/2 a mile to the nearest, which shuts around 11pm not 1:30am.


----------



## Gillstay (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What would have happened 50 years ago ?
> What would happen if you'd had a drink that night ?
> 
> Yes yes we all know cars are convenient but we've managed to live without for centuries without them. Times change. Humans can adapt.


Correct, we have to change as doing nothing will result in change anyway, and doing badly will just accelerate the poor outcome that awaits us.


----------



## Alex321 (15 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What would have happened 50 years ago ?
> What would happen if you'd had a drink that night ?
> 
> Yes yes we all know cars are convenient but we've managed to live without for centuries without them. Times change. Humans can adapt.


50 years ago - 1971. Almost half of households owned a car.

But people just didn't travel as much as they do now, most people lived within walking distance or an easy bus ride of their work, even small villages had regular buses to the nearest town, most shopping was in town centres, "retail parks" just didn't exist.

Yes, many managed without cars then, but society was set up for that to be the norm. We can't go back to that by changing individual behaviour, it will need massive changes to society as a whole, and the necessary changes will be very strongly resisted, as people have got used to the current normal, and businesses like the large retail units they can have in the out of town retail centres, they won't want to revert to much smaller high street shops.

Having said which, COVID has shown how much it is possible to work from home for many office type jobs, and hybrid working is likely to become the norm for those jobs, which could lead to a significant reduction in car use, if not in ownership.


----------



## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, many managed without cars then, but society was set up for that to be the norm. We can't go back to that by changing individual behaviour, it will need massive changes to society as a whole, and the necessary changes will be very strongly resisted, as people have got used to the current normal, and businesses like the large retail units they can have in the out of town retail centres, they won't want to revert to much smaller high street shops.
> 
> Having said which, COVID has shown how much it is possible to work from home for many office type jobs, and hybrid working is likely to become the norm for those jobs, which could lead to a significant reduction in car use, if not in ownership.


Which puts us kind of between a rock and a hard place. Fossil fuels need to be phased out. Simple 1:1 replacement of private vehicles with EVs for use as at present isn't feasible because they will be too expensive (shortages of lithium or neodymium or whatever). So something has to give.

As you say, a change in working patterns with increased working from home for office jobs, increased home delivery and reduced visits to physical shops may decrease car _use_, but they don't decrease _ownership_. 

And that's the problem: Moving everyone to EVs (or possibly hydrogen), and also having them used less would be a rosy solution because it would allow people to continue to own and cherish their private cars as status symbols. But they will be bloody expensive. So some sort of increased shared use, or public transport, or transport-as-a-service or whatever may need to be part of the solution.


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## cougie uk (16 Nov 2021)

Self driving electric cars. Like bigger versions of your Roomba.


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## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Self driving electric cars. Like bigger versions of your Roomba.


Will clean the roads too. See recent thread on hedge clippings.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

I wouldn't say forced but encouragex by the huge financial savings of running, buying an EV currently. Thrn there is all the pollution savings from no tailpipe emissions.

See my post here of this morning's journey. 

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/nissan-leaf-what-do-we-think.274306/post-6587573


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## Landsurfer (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I wouldn't say forced but encouragex by the huge financial savings of running, buying an EV currently. Thrn there is all the pollution savings from no tailpipe emissions.
> 
> See my post here of this morning's journey.
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/nissan-leaf-what-do-we-think.274306/post-6587573


Thats fine Andy but it was almost no wind yesterday and non overnight so your electricity for your journey probably came from a Carbon source .. Coal, Diesel or Gas ... so no pollution savings at all really ...


----------



## SpokeyDokey (16 Nov 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Fission is what we currently have. Think you mean fusion.



Thank you. 

Yes, you are correct. I thought I had typed fusion. Must be going mad!


----------



## cougie uk (16 Nov 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Thats fine Andy but it was almost no wind yesterday and non overnight so your electricity for your journey probably came from a Carbon source .. Coal, Diesel or Gas ... so no pollution savings at all really ...


This is a useful resource. It's about 23% renewables at the moment.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

But look how far we have come since 2012 ! It's no point saying don't bother with electric as some of its from coal or whatever.

Petrol is always 100 % from fossil resources. 
Electric increasingly isn't.


----------



## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

UK baseload is predominantly gas, with some nuclear and dwindling coal.

Even if there are no carbon benefits from powering vehicles by electricity from gas turbines, there are some benefits or potential benefits from switching the pollution away from tailpipes (improved urban air quality, the opportunity for centralised carbon sequestration). Not to mention the fact that the % if renewables can always be increased.

Hanging around waiting for fusion power is a fools game. Even the reactors that promise to get more energy out of the reactor than is put in tend to be fudging the figures. They tend to refer to the in/out of the plasma itself and ignore all the energy consumption of the flipping great machine that sustains the plasma*. It needs a dramatic breakthrough of some sort as the existing incremental research is not leading anywhere. The best fusion reactor we have to rely on is the big one in the sky.

Fission reactors were developed off the back of arms technology, which needed plutonium. That's why they produce so much shitty waste. If they had been designed purely for power production then maybe they would be cleaner. But there would be decades of research needed there. All the same, I still think they are our best bet for low carbon baseload production but they do have a slightly bad rep what with Chernobyl and all.

* Ref http://news.newenergytimes.net/2021...-needed-for-the-joint-european-torus-reactor/


----------



## SpokeyDokey (16 Nov 2021)

Cars are here to stay imo - it's the power source that needs sorting out. 

Little cars like the Citroën earlier in the thread raise a laugh but really the likes of these have to be the future surely? 

The battery powered solution is already being exploited by manufacturers who cannot drag themselves away from performance in the 0-62mph stakes.

Who really needs Teslas/Polestars/Range Rovers etc with 0-62mph times of sub 5, 4 and even 3 second sprint times to this speed. 

I have one friend who proudly boasts of his green purchase of a 400bhp RR Sport Hybrid!

Ditto another with a Porsche Taycan Cross X boasting 750bhp - ludicrous.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (16 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> UK baseload is predominantly gas, with some nuclear and dwindling coal.
> 
> Even if there are no carbon benefits from powering vehicles by electricity from gas turbines, there are some benefits or potential benefits from switching the pollution away from tailpipes (improved urban air quality, the opportunity for centralised carbon sequestration).
> 
> ...



The 'small' Rolls Royce reactors look like an interesting solution as, I agree, fusion is some way off albeit I think longer term solutions are what needs developing rather than short-term knee jerk responses.


----------



## FishFright (16 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’ve said elsewhere just build some more nuclear power stations and be done with it



I can see that being the solution chosen with a bit of renewables on the side. Mainly because it will allow energy use to continue rising.


----------



## BrumJim (16 Nov 2021)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Cars are here to stay imo - it's the power source that needs sorting out.
> 
> Little cars like the Citroën earlier in the thread raise a laugh but really the likes of these have to be the future surely?
> 
> ...



It is the anomaly, where in order to get general acceptance of electric vehicles, the manufacturers believe that Jo(e) Public needs to be enthused by "halo" models. Largely the reason why cars such as the Golf GTI and Peugeot 205GTi were built, and why a lot of car manufacturers support a racing program. There are many who really couldn't give a toss about this lot, but are expected to look to those a bit more enthusiastic for advice on what car to go for, and therefore they get their leads from the exciting models rather than the dull ones. 

The big hope from car manufacturers is that people stop associating electric vehicles with the humble milk float, and more with Teslas, Polestars and electric SUVs. One of the advantages of electric vehicles are that they have good acceleration in the sensible zone (up to 70 for high-performance vehicles, up to 40 for city cars), and less so in the silly zone (e.g. 70-150). Which is a selling point.

Of course all this perpetuates the resource-grabbing energy-wasting trajectory we are on at the moment.


----------



## FishFright (16 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> UK baseload is predominantly gas, with some nuclear and dwindling coal.
> 
> Even if there are no carbon benefits from powering vehicles by electricity from gas turbines, there are some benefits or potential benefits from switching the pollution away from tailpipes (improved urban air quality, the opportunity for centralised carbon sequestration). Not to mention the fact that the % if renewables can always be increased.
> 
> ...



I hear fusion power is still 'just 20 years away' ...


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

I am aware of that but my tariff is guaranteed renewable source. I pay more than I need, if I chose the cheaper tariffs I wouldn't be able to ensure where the energy came from.

We are moving next year, the site will have scope for solar, possibly wind. I will be taking maximum advantage of this, to try and become almost solely off-grid capable


----------



## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> We are moving next year, the site will have scope for solar, possibly wind. I will be taking maximum advantage of this, to try and become almost solely off-grid capable


Good luck. But from the bit of research I did years ago, wind is something you need to build BIG, otherwise it's not worth it. Stick to solar. But I could be wrong.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Good luck. But from the bit of research I did years ago, wind is something you need to build BIG, otherwise it's not worth it. Stick to solar. But I could be wrong.


Big can bring nimby issues


----------



## Alex321 (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I am aware of that but my tariff is guaranteed renewable source. I pay more than I need, if I chose the cheaper tariffs I wouldn't be able to ensure where the energy came from.
> 
> We are moving next year, the site will have scope for solar, possibly wind. I will be taking maximum advantage of this, to try and become almost solely off-grid capable


We are just in the middle of ordering Solar. 

Getting a good big installation (10.4Kw), so that if/when we replace the cars with EV there should be enough to charge them, as well as enough to run all the heating (which is currently on a gas boiler).


----------



## BrumJim (16 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> I hear fusion power is still 'just 20 years away' ...


I'm sure that is what they said 20 years ago.


----------



## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

BrumJim said:


> I'm sure that is what they said 20 years ago.


Longer than that. It's been 20 years away certainly since 40 years ago. Maybe longer


----------



## Oldhippy (16 Nov 2021)

Once I get my narrow boat I will run an electric motor on that and hope to be entirely off grid via solar on one half of the roof.


----------



## All uphill (16 Nov 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Once I get my narrow boat I will run an electric motor on that and hope to be entirely off grid via solar on one half of the roof.


I imagine a heat pump would work well in a canal? A ready source of 10 degrees c water year round.


----------



## Fergs (16 Nov 2021)

I’m late to the thread and I haven’t read back but - based on the thread title - can I just say shout…

JUDAS!


----------



## Alex321 (16 Nov 2021)

Fergs said:


> I’m late to the thread and I haven’t read back but - based on the thread title - can I just say shout…
> 
> JUDAS!


You can, but I shouldn't think many will have a clue what you are on about.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

Fergs said:


> I’m late to the thread and I haven’t read back but - based on the thread title - can I just say shout…
> 
> JUDAS!




Priest or Iscariot ? 

Give us a kiss


----------



## Fergs (16 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> You can, but I shouldn't think many will have a clue what you are on about.



Fair point. It was intended to be a light hearted riff on Bob Dylan being heckled by folkies in Manchester when he ‘went electric’.

I’ll get me harmonica….


----------



## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

Fergs said:


> Fair point. It was intended to be a light hearted riff on Bob Dylan being heckled by folkies in Manchester when he ‘went electric’.
> 
> I’ll get me harmonica….


Armed with the explanation ... I get it!

A tad obscure though.


----------



## Stephenite (16 Nov 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Once I get my narrow boat I will run an electric motor on that and hope to be entirely off grid via solar on one half of the roof.


Port or starboard half?


----------



## Oldhippy (16 Nov 2021)

Bow end.


----------



## cougie uk (16 Nov 2021)

Can you really get enough power to move the boat as well as all your onboard electric demands ?


----------



## Oldhippy (16 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Can you really get enough power to move the boat as well as all your onboard electric demands ?


I only have a laptop to power and a phone to charge so in theory yes.


----------



## shep (17 Nov 2021)

Stephenite said:


> Port or starboard half?


Get a good size battery bank and a log burner and a top quality controller, you'll harvest next to nothing in the Winter months so just be aware. I've a 100w panel and 110 leisure in my camper and you'll be surprised how short a time it lasts.


----------



## shep (17 Nov 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I only have a laptop to power and a phone to charge so in theory yes.


Fridge? gas I guess, heating? Log burner and radiators? Lights, TV? Water pump?


----------



## Oldhippy (17 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Fridge? gas I guess, heating? Log burner and radiators? Lights, TV? Water pump?


Log burner will heat water, no radiators, no TV, candles only, no fridge needed. Water pump tba.


----------



## Pale Rider (17 Nov 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> candles only



Don't forget to budget for a good fire extinguisher.


----------



## Cerdic (19 Nov 2021)

Sounds a bit 'hair shirt' for most, but if it works for you...


----------



## Oldhippy (19 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Sounds a bit 'hair shirt' for most, but if it works for you...


Not as much as you'd expect.


----------



## cougie uk (19 Nov 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Log burner will heat water, no radiators, no TV, candles only, no fridge needed. Water pump tba.


How long is the boat ? How will the heat get into the bedroom ?

Lots of narrow boats already have solar just to keep their batteries topped up. 

I can't see you'll be traveling in winter.


----------



## CXRAndy (19 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> How long is the boat ? How will the heat get into the bedroom ?
> 
> Lots of narrow boats already have solar just to keep their batteries topped up.
> 
> I can't see you'll be traveling in winter.


A simple air circulation system piped heat small fan distributing a the heat from the flue pipe would work extremely well. Vast majority of heat just goes out of the chimney. Heating a an exchanger then blowing warmed air is at least scavenging some of this heat.


----------



## Pale Rider (21 Nov 2021)

Any of the Tesla fan boys on here unable to start to their cars recently?

Some owners were left stranded after the app messed up.

Looks like there is a key which would get the contraption moving, but many owners are not in the habit of carrying it.

I can forgive a car almost anything provided it gets me where I want to go when I want to go there, which does make me wonder if this is an example of technology taken too far.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306


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## MrGrumpy (21 Nov 2021)

Yes I read about that as well and my first thought was wtf do you need an app to open a car ?! Utterly stupid and pointless. Software tech gone too far imo. My caravan has an app based control system as well, biggest pile of sh…t going. I stopped using it !


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## Pale Rider (21 Nov 2021)

My humble Ford has 'keyless go', but there is a key blade inside the fob.

This means that with a bit of fiddling I should always be able to get inside, although once in there's nowhere to stuff the key blade, so I think I'm still reliant on the remote fob telling the car it can start.


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## CXRAndy (21 Nov 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> My humble Ford has 'keyless go'



So old hat 

Its all done with a swipe of a credit card these days


----------



## CXRAndy (21 Nov 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> My humble Ford has 'keyless go'



So old hat 

Its all done with a swipe of a credit card these days


----------



## MrGrumpy (21 Nov 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> My humble Ford has 'keyless go', but there is a key blade inside the fob.
> 
> This means that with a bit of fiddling I should always be able to get inside, although once in there's nowhere to stuff the key blade, so I think I'm still reliant on the remote fob telling the car it can start.


Same here , keyless entry . Still need the key fob on you. The Merc has an app and I can open lock the doors etc remotely . See tyre pressures etc . However other than that it’s still quite gimmicky !


----------



## Smokin Joe (21 Nov 2021)

I had a Capri with keyless entry.

Nail file, screwdriver, hair clip, you name it and it would open it.


----------



## Mike_P (21 Nov 2021)

And if you had none of those a number of keys borrowed from other Ford* drivers later would undo the lock.

* insert make of any car of the period as applicable


----------



## neil_merseyside (22 Nov 2021)

Easier BITD with 1/2 tennis ball for xr3i's (wasn't it?)


----------



## All uphill (22 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> So old hat
> 
> Its all done with a swipe of a credit card these days


Everything to do with cars seems to require an expensive swipe of a credit card!


----------



## DRM (22 Nov 2021)

Mike_P said:


> And if you had none of those a number of keys borrowed from other Ford* drivers later would undo the lock.
> 
> * insert make of any car of the period as applicable


This was true, one place I worked at had 2x Cortina’s you didn’t bother picking up the correct keys for the car as one would unlock/start the others, it was pointless


----------



## MrGrumpy (22 Nov 2021)

Dispatches on CH4 , all about EVs. We have a long way to go with charger reliability out in the wild ! That’s the message !


----------



## slowmotion (22 Nov 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> I had a Capri with keyless entry.
> 
> Nail file, screwdriver, hair clip, you name it and it would open it.


I once managed to get into my Fiat Panda with a bent coat hanger. My garage man told me how to. It was surprisingly easy. I don't know how to hot wire cars though.


----------



## cougie uk (22 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Dispatches on CH4 , all about EVs. We have a long way to go with charger reliability out in the wild ! That’s the message !


I've not needed a charger in the wild since June I think ?


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Dispatches on CH4 , all about EVs. We have a long way to go with charger reliability out in the wild ! That’s the message !



My last actually need to charge away from home was a couple of years ago. My visit to my sister involves a 200 mile journey. Tesla does it without a thought of needing to stop. 

You seem to missing the fact that any power source as low as 2A will charge a car. Albeit slowly. We charged 100kW Tesla whilst on a campsite, all with an extension lead. We weren't using the car for a couple of days, just left it trickle charging. 

Cars spend 99% of their life parked up, why not spend that time trickle charging?


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

I made a comment on the dispatches program , the charging network needs to improve rapidly online with EV roll out if this going to work properly. That was the key message. It seems to be lagging somewhat. Also battery optimisation is to keep it charged between 20% and 80% . Don’t plug ii in every night to take it 100% .


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I've not needed a charger in the wild since June I think ?


Not everyone has a drive or charge point to charge their vehicle at their house. That’s the point but we have done that conversation.

Top gear also did their thing with EVs and towing . Ok the usual light entertainment with that however it did show up the downsides of where we are with that subject.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not everyone has a drive or charge point to charge their vehicle at their house. That’s the point but we have done that conversation.
> 
> Top gear also did their thing with EVs and towing . Ok the usual light entertainment with that however it did show up the downsides of where we are with that subject.


I saw Top Gear. Nobody's going to be ragging their cars round a field and up a hill on a caravan holiday. 

And real people would plan for a recharge just like they'd do if it was a petrol car.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I saw Top Gear. Nobody's going to be ragging their cars round a field and up a hill on a caravan holiday.
> 
> And real people would plan for a recharge just like they'd do if it was a petrol car.


Well aware it was Top Gear and that’s what they do but your missing the point being made underneath. You will be recharging frequently however maybe battery tech will have vastly improved by then .


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

There is so much opposition propoganda being bandied about. 

Evs are here now and from my daily journeys more and more each week. 

The path has been laid, the internal combustion engine is destined to the history museum- not before time


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Propaganda ??  Conspiracy theories more like . The point being made on CH4 last night is it’s about time they got their finger out and sorted the charger networks out. If the gov want wide spread uptake of EV vehicles.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well aware it was Top Gear and that’s what they do but your missing the point being made underneath. You will be recharging frequently however maybe battery tech will have vastly improved by then .


The average car in the UK does about 140 miles a week. Just about any EV would do that off one charge now.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> The average car in the UK does about 140 miles a week. Just about any EV would do that off one charge now.


Towing you may not !? Also battery optimisation, apparently to get the best they need to be kept between 20-80% . So don’t run them flat and don’t over charge when not needed . Ensures a longer life ? So range is now less than whats advertised!


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

How many people tow caravans ? 1% ?


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Or tow trailers or have roof boxes on their cars ? All will have an effect in range with a battery powered car. By how much I don’t know. Right now the only advantage EVs have are running costs that’s it everything else is a compromise. However that’s where we are heading isn’t it. The more I read up on EVs the more I need to keep the Death Star running for as long as I can


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Or tow trailers or have roof boxes on their cars ? All will have an effect in range with a battery powered car. By how much I don’t know. *Right now the only advantage EVs have are running costs* that’s it everything else is a compromise. However that’s where we are heading isn’t it. The more I read up on EVs the more I need to keep the Death Star running for as long as I can



Well no, the *main* advantage is zero emissions. And that is the reason they are being mandated by law in the future. Hopefully, by the time we are all using Evs, the electricity generation will also all be renewables.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Well no, the *main* advantage is zero emissions. And that is the reason they are being mandated by law in the future. Hopefully, by the time we are all using Evs, the electricity generation will also all be renewables.


I disagree , there is nothing zero emission about an EV. That’s already been pointed out and as for renewables , well I’d like it to be a future to look forward to but I’m just not seeing it. Going to be larger demand for electricity.


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre, I wonder if it is a conspiracy by the automotive industry and the government to force us to buy electric cars?
> Mrs G wants to go to Bideford soon to visit our daughter and it is going to cost me £100 just on petrol !!  This is mad. Many families are going to be price out of motoring as electric cars are far too expensive for most of us.
> A simple Clio is around £28000 !!
> I despair for the future.


Lets hope hydrogen comes available for cars who would buy a used electric car .


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> Lets hope hydrogen comes available for cars who would buy a used electric car .


PCP or lease , after all that’s what most folk are doing these days . Not many have £90k to splash down on a Tesla .


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I disagree , there is nothing zero emission about an EV.


False, of course.

The fact that the production (and decommissioning) produce emissions does not in any way mean "there is nothing zero emission". They are absolutely zero emission in terms of polluting the air in our cities.



> That’s already been pointed out and as for renewables , well I’d like it to be a future to look forward to but I’m just not seeing it. Going to be larger demand for electricity.



Yes, there is an awful lot of "hope" in that, rather than any properly justified plans.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> Lets hope hydrogen comes available for cars who would buy a used electric car .


In a few years, everybody. 

Because there won't be anything else available.


----------



## Threevok (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> PCP or lease , after all that’s what most folk are doing these days . Not many have £90k to splash down on a Tesla .



The Boss has an E-Pace. When it was in for a repair, they gave him a 90k Tesla as a courtesy car. 

He hated it and said it felt cheap and the interior was nasty and plastic, not a patch on the Jag


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Threevok said:


> The Boss has an E-Pace. When it was in for a repair, they gave him a 90k Tesla as a courtesy car.
> 
> He hated it and said it felt cheap and the interior was nasty and plastic, not a patch on the Jag


Shhhh you will get hung drawn and quartered for saying stuff like that in here ! ? Ps I’ve heard similar mentioned !


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> False, of course.
> 
> The fact that the production (and decommissioning) produce emissions does not in any way mean "there is nothing zero emission". They are absolutely zero emission in terms of polluting the air in our cities.


Absolutely zero at tail pipe , well they don’t have one  ! However everything else with them has a huge environmental cost .


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> In a few years, everybody.
> 
> Because there won't be anything else available.


I still think hydrogen will come through if everyone gets a electric car I don't think the National grid would cope with every one charging up



Alex321 said:


> In a few years, everybody.
> 
> Because there won't be anything else available.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> I still think hydrogen will come through if everyone gets a electric car I don't think the National grid would cope with every one charging up


Apparently it takes a lot of energy to produce. JCB are apparently working on this , read about in here somewhere. Have to think that hydrogen will be used in HGVs etc . Going to be an awful lot of lorries sitting recharging, however I’m sure the boffins will be looking at as we speak !


----------



## Oldhippy (23 Nov 2021)

Or we could all just use cars less, buy locally, transport more by rail and campaign seriously for better public transport.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> I still think hydrogen will come through if everyone gets a electric car I don't think the National grid would cope with every one charging up


I doubt hydrogen will ever become commonplace for private cars. It may do for goods vehicles and PSVs.

I'm not sure the National Grid *as it is now* would cope, but it will be at least 15 years before almost everybody is driving electric cars.

You have to remember, EVs at the moment are still a fairly niche product. As they become more mainstream over the next few years, things will change to handle them.


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

Might this go some way to alleviating the "not everybody has offroad parking" conundrum? Or the principle of it at least. I think it's a neat (although not new) idea and whilst it has some challenges (it's no doubt heavy, expensive and introduces another efficiency loss in the power supply chain) it does at least improve operating flexibility.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Might this go some way to alleviating the "not everybody has offroad parking" conundrum? Or the principle of it at least. I think it's a neat (although not new) idea and whilst it has some challenges (it's no doubt heavy, expensive and introduces another efficiency loss in the power supply chain) it does at least improve operating flexibility.


May do thats assuming nobody steals your charger .


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> I still think hydrogen will come through if everyone gets a electric car I don't think the National grid would cope with every one charging up


You use less electricity per mile in an EV than you do using the electric to make hydrogen to put into a car.

Plus why would I queue for hydrogen when I can start each day off with a full tank of electric?

Toyota have bet on hydrogen and it's going to be a huge mistake for them I think.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Propaganda ??  Conspiracy theories more like . The point being made on CH4 last night is it’s about time they got their finger out and sorted the charger networks out. If the gov want wide spread uptake of EV vehicles.


All new builds from next year are now required to install 7kW charging. I've agreed to add a charger to my newbuild sale.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Absolutely zero at tail pipe , well they don’t have one  ! However everything else with them has a huge environmental cost .


Would you like to give us EV converts a breakdown of in terms of CO2, and other pollutants from oil exploration, extraction, transportation, refining, storage, transportation of refined fuels to fuel stations and subsequent emissions per ICE vehicle whilst moving around?


----------



## Baldy (23 Nov 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Or we could all just use cars less, buy locally, transport more by rail and campaign seriously for better public transport.


Rail freight is already struggling with the volume of stuff being sent on it. Before you can transport more by rail you'll need to rebuild your rail network.


----------



## FishFright (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Absolutely zero at tail pipe , well they don’t have one  ! However everything else with them has a huge environmental cost .



Unlike ICE vehicles where every part is simply wished into existence without any environmental consequence....


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> PCP or lease , after all that’s what most folk are doing these days . Not many have £90k to splash down on a Tesla .


way off the mark best selling Tesla


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Apparently it takes a lot of energy to produce. JCB are apparently working on this , read about in here somewhere. Have to think that hydrogen will be used in HGVs etc . Going to be an awful lot of lorries sitting recharging, however I’m sure the boffins will be looking at as we speak !


Talking of electrifying the main arterial routes to charge trucks whilst driving


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> but it will be at least 15 years before almost everybody is driving electric cars.



There is a tipping point, snowball effect, whatever metaphor you care to use, when suddenly the transition to a new system has taken over. Just go and look at the EV take over the last 5 years. This is the change this year, you can see percentage wise EVs are making huge gains at the expense of ICE


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You use less electricity per mile in an EV than you do using the electric to make hydrogen to put into a car.
> 
> Plus why would I queue for hydrogen when I can start each day off with a full tank of electric?
> 
> Toyota have bet on hydrogen and it's going to be a huge mistake for them I think.


Don't think so.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> way off the mark best selling Tesla
> View attachment 619005


that is still a lot of cash !


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> Don't think so.


Inciteful.

Thermodynamics is against you with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that although there's lots of it about, it is all connected to something else. Put two hydrogens with an oxygen and we have water - well there's plenty of that about so great, we have all the hydrogen we need! Ah, but wait - _why _is there so much water about? Might it be because it is so chemically stable that it just hangs about a lot? Well yes, it is. It takes a great deal of energy to separate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule - that's what makes water so stable and abundant. It takes even _more _energy to strip the second hydrogen off.

But, we can do it so if we do now we have two Hs and an O - brilliant, we can simply burn the hydrogen in the oxygen and get energy! Well, yes you can, but you get less energy back from that reaction than you used to strip the hydrogens off in the first place, notwithstanding any yield and efficiency losses. Burning hydrogen to get energy will get you the most energy out of your hydrogen; running it through a fuel cell effectively does the same thing - the transfer of electrons from the hydrogen to the oxygen but through an intermediary so the energy score will be the same at best - a net loss. If you can power this process by solar/wind/waves/whatever then you can start winning, but to do this at scale requires a lot of energy in the right place for a predictable and sustainable time.

Perhaps there is another source of hydrogen? Yes, we can use ammonia (NH3) as a hydrogen source which is a better thermodynamic story but where do you get the ammonia from? It doesn't hang around in nature much so for large scale amounts we'd need to make it. Ammonia is a large chemical business already and feeds all sort of processes, but it needs energy to work and ammonia is not the nicest stuff to have around the place - toxic and flammable, plus not very nice smelling.

How about hydrocarbons? We could strip the hydrogen from those! Yes, we could, but then you have two problems: (1) you need a hydrocarbon to start with and (2) you're left with a big pile of carbon-rich output to deal with. Not as CO2 (yay!) but as a coke-type residue (boo!!).

The reason hydrocarbons work so well for us over the short time period we have been using it is that the energy input to create the molecules has already happened, millions of years ago, powered by the solar system. The energy has been stored for us and we're releasing it. Sustainable alternatives like hydrogen require us to shortcut the process by aeons, which is the tricky bit and which thermodynamics has put some limits on.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

I must admit, Its one of nice benefits where I haven't needed to go to a petrol station in such a long time,

Queue-what's that.


MrGrumpy said:


> that is still a lot of cash !



It maybe and you're one of the unlucky folk who cant or wont pay that for a vehicle. However I see far more new Tesla model 3 than any other BEV on the road. This is backed up by the fact they have been topping UK sales figures. 

Have you seen the market share OCT month comparison from 2020 to '21 for BEV its jumped from 6.6% to 15.2%. That huge growth. 

86% growth year on year. In just a few years more than 50% will be BEV on UK roads. Now the UK is actually lagging way behind other countries in take up. 

Slightly skewed, but remember when apple tried to stop the proliferation of Android phones taking over the market. In just 5 years Android had crushed apple in market share and still control 75%. 

That is what I expect BEV to do to ICE sales in a similar time frame. 

for anyone thinking of a BEV, get one soon, the tax breaks, and cheap running will fade when government starts losing revenue from cars


----------



## ianrauk (23 Nov 2021)

We've just had a Vauxhall Mokka E for a long weekend whilst our car was in their garage.
We went to Ikea on sunday knowing there were charging points there. 6 spaces. Each space with an electric vehicle in. But only one vehicle being charged.
Went to Tescos after. 8 places. All 8 taken, 5 not charging their vehicle. Local high street. 2 places, both taken by cars, this time both being charged.
In the end we went to my partners work at a garden center. Where there was space.

So, what's the protocol for electric vehicle charging spaces. It seems that electric vehicle drivers view them as a parking space whether you are charging or not.
There's going to be a heck of a lot more charging points needed sooner rather than later to alleviate that problem.

We had to go to a charging point as we live in a flat so no can charge from home.

Apart from that, my partner absolutely loved the drive of the car. But.. if she was to change her car to an electric one, it would be a hybrid rather then a fully electric, due to the charging problems we have/had.


----------



## BrumJim (23 Nov 2021)

Other big problem with hydrogen is storage. It has a very high energy density, but a very low density.

In order to squeeze it into a cylinder that is practical to have on a car, lorry, train, etc, you need to consume a lot of energy, and hence overall efficiency drops.

Yes, practically battery is far easier to implement. There is already an electricity distribution system around, although it may take a few tweaks to make it practical and accessible. However it wasn't that long ago that all our pavements were being dug up for cable TV, and so glad now that we have a fibre network almost to the front door. There is an option for Murphys to be seen around here again digging up multiple trenches from houses to kerb stones with integrated charging points. Maybe not the best idea, but there will be something else suitable along soon.

Hydrogen distribution? They either feed it through the gas main (sounds like a bigger change than from town to natural gas) or at filling stations, but again the changes required for storing such a volatile gas at high pressures and low temperatures isn't going to be that easy.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

ianrauk said:


> Went to Tescos after. 8 places. All 8 taken, 5 not charging their vehicle. Local high street. 2 places, both taken by cars, this time both being charged.
> In the end we went to my partners work at a garden center. Where there was space.


This is called Ice-ing or ICE'd. Its highly ignorant of non BEV owners to take an EV charging point. I never park in an EV charging station if I'm not charging. Even hybrids its also poor courtesy.

I took my wife to a nice hotel. It had 3 allocated charging stations. We charged first night, went out next day and a big ICE car had taken one of the charging bays. Fortunately the leads were long enough for me to connect to my vehicle if I left my car in front of this ICE car. Because we were driving a long way home I needed a big charge. The driver had to wait whilst I had my breakfast and showered to go home. He may think about it in future.

When there are literally hundred at supermarkets, the issue fades away


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

My own experience of public charging is limited but here goes:

I have only charged in public 4 times and three of those were simply to test the concept and for novelty's sake. So far I have spent precisely £0.00 on public charging since all of them have been free. The one time I really needed a charge to get home was in Oxford - they have 50 EV charging spaces in the Westgate centre car park and they are free; of course you pay for parking but then you would anyway, regardless of your car type. I parked up in one of the numerous available spaces, plugged in and walked away - no app, no card, no button, just plug and play. I went to see Deacon Blue at the New Theatre (fantastic gig by the way) then walked back to my car which was almost full, unplugged it, packed the cable away and drove off. And the car was nicely warmed-up to boot.

The other charging occasions have been in either a Tesco or town centre shopping car park - these were Pod Point units which require you to confirm your charge via their (free to use) app within 15 minutes of plugging in. Again, no fuss and spaces were available. To be honest, if there's free charging to be had anywhere I will take it, regardless of how much battery I have left - it's like getting free fuel so why wouldn't you? Of course I know it is costing somebody/everybody along the line but I'm happy to take advantage.

In terms of etiquette, my car will signal to me via its own app when it is expecting to be full and again when it is full. If I am able I will then go back to the car and move it.

So far the only small gripe I have is having to deal with a wet cable and put it under the boot floor, which requires the boot to be largely empty to access.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> but it will be at least 15 years before almost everybody is driving electric cars.





CXRAndy said:


> There is a tipping point, snowball effect, whatever metaphor you care to use, when suddenly the transition to a new system has taken over. Just go and look at the EV take over the last 5 years. This is the change this year, you can see percentage wise EVs are making huge gains at the expense of ICE



They are. But that is new car sales. Most of the cars on the road are a few years old, and it will still take a few years before BEV sales actually overtake ICE sales. That is why I suggested about 15 years before it is almost entirely Electric cars on the road. In 8 years time, it will be almost entirely BEVs sold new - hybrids will still be allowed for a few years, but knowing that won't be long, I can't see many manufacturers putting much effort into those for the UK market.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

FishFright said:


> Unlike ICE vehicles where every part is simply wished into existence without any environmental consequence....
> [/QUOTE





ianrauk said:


> We've just had a Vauxhall Mokka E for a long weekend whilst our car was in their garage.
> We went to Ikea on sunday knowing there were charging points there. 6 spaces. Each space with an electric vehicle in. But only one vehicle being charged.
> Went to Tescos after. 8 places. All 8 taken, 5 not charging their vehicle. Local high street. 2 places, both taken by cars, this time both being charged.
> In the end we went to my partners work at a garden center. Where there was space.
> ...


these were some of the issues raised in the Dispatches program. Hybrid seems like a better stop gap for now.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Because we were driving a long way home I needed a big charge. The driver had to wait whilst I had my breakfast and showered to go home. He may think about it in future.


I just drove home on the half tank of fuel I still had left 

ok I’m jesting but that’s probably quite common at the moment. I’ve seen it myself in car parks. EVs parked up some not on charge. Worse still are Tesla drivers whom have their own network slumming it with the riff raff and using those chargers  . Long way to go but I’m sure they will get there.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I just drove home on the half tank of fuel I still had left
> 
> ok I’m jesting but that’s probably quite common at the moment. I’ve seen it myself in car parks. EVs parked up some not on charge. Worse still are Tesla drivers whom have their own network slumming it with the riff raff and using those chargers  . Long way to go but I’m sure they will get there.


Money I saved on fuel we had a slap up meal. Swings and roundabouts


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Inciteful.
> 
> Thermodynamics is against you with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that although there's lots of it about, it is all connected to something else. Put two hydrogens with an oxygen and we have water - well there's plenty of that about so great, we have all the hydrogen we need! Ah, but wait - _why _is there so much water about? Might it be because it is so chemically stable that it just hangs about a lot? Well yes, it is. It takes a great deal of energy to separate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule - that's what makes water so stable and abundant. It takes even _more _energy to strip the second hydrogen off.
> 
> ...


In fact I did the maths a few years ago during a similar online debate. Here's what I wrote then (tweaked for current context):


> The average dissociation energy of the H-O bond in water is 458.9 kJ/mol. This means that to strip the *hydrogen* atoms from the oxygen atom takes 458.9 kJ of energy for one mole of water. 1 mole of water is around 18 grams.
> 
> So, 1 g of water needs 27.4 kJ energy to strip apart.
> 
> ...


This was a fag packet calculation so please feel free to check my workings. If I'm right, even at the first stage, look how much energy we need to get hydrogen out of water. For a kilogram of water we need 27.4 _mega_joules. Scale up to a tonne are we are in gigajoule territory, with no Mr Fusion or lightning strikes to power it.


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Inciteful.
> 
> Thermodynamics is against you with hydrogen. The problem with hydrogen is that although there's lots of it about, it is all connected to something else. Put two hydrogens with an oxygen and we have water - well there's plenty of that about so great, we have all the hydrogen we need! Ah, but wait - _why _is there so much water about? Might it be because it is so chemically stable that it just hangs about a lot? Well yes, it is. It takes a great deal of energy to separate a hydrogen atom from a water molecule - that's what makes water so stable and abundant. It takes even _more _energy to strip the second hydrogen off.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt what you say is correct but I think with luck ways to overcome these problems ,if all vehicles were electric you would need a awful lot of electric to charge them up and what will the power stations use.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> I have no doubt what you say is correct but I think with luck ways to overcome these problems ,if all vehicles were electric you would need a awful lot of electric to charge them up and what will the power stations use.



It would take a lot more electricity to extract sufficient hydrogen. There really is no realistic chance we will be going down that route for private cars.


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> It would take a lot more electricity to extract sufficient hydrogen. There really is no realistic chance we will be going down that route for private cars.


Think Toyota disagrees with you.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> Think Toyota disagrees with you.


As said above, they have probably got that wrong. Other car manufacturers don't seem to be in agreement with them.

There really doesn't seem to be any good reason at the moment to put a lot of effort into hydrogen power when EVs are improving all the time. Remember, it would need a critical mass of cars being powered that way before it becomes viable, and that just isn't going to happen in the near future.

That could change in future of course, if we start running out of materials to make batteries with.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> That could change in future of course, if we start running out of materials to make batteries with.




that is a real possibility!


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> As said above, they have probably got that wrong. Other car manufacturers don't seem to be in agreement with them.
> 
> There really doesn't seem to be any good reason at the moment to put a lot of effort into hydrogen power when EVs are improving all the time. Remember, it would need a critical mass of cars being powered that way before it becomes viable, and that just isn't going to happen in the near future.
> 
> That could change in future of course, if we start running out of materials to make batteries with.


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

The laws of thermodynamics won't change. Toyota can't ignore them just like VW couldn't when they got caught with the NOx issue. At the moment the car OEMs are not held accountable for the upstream emissions of their cars, just the manufacturing and use emissions. So all Toyota need is a ready source of hydrogen with the hope that it has come from a sustainably-powered source. Even this doesn't overcome the issue of the hydrogen infrastructure mentioned above, and we haven't even gone near safety yet.


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> The laws of thermodynamics won't change. Toyota can't ignore them just like VW couldn't when they got caught with the NOx issue. At the moment the car OEMs are not held accountable for the upstream emissions of their cars, just the manufacturing and use emissions. So all Toyota need is a ready source of hydrogen with the hope that it has come from a sustainably-powered source. Even this doesn't overcome the issue of the hydrogen infrastructure mentioned above, and we haven't even gone near safety yet.


They are confident that the problems will be overcome.


----------



## DRM (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> False, of course.
> 
> The fact that the production (and decommissioning) produce emissions does not in any way mean "there is nothing zero emission". They are absolutely zero emission in terms of polluting the air in our cities.
> 
> ...


Where does the electric come from? Wouldn’t happen to be a power station would it, that burns wood and rubbish


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

DRM said:


> Where does the electric come from? Wouldn’t happen to be a power station would it, that burns wood and rubbish


Oh dear. Not heard of renewable energy? I chose an energy supplier that only uses renewable. 

UK nudging 40% for renewable electricity


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Oh dear. Not heard of renewable energy? I chose an energy supplier that only uses renewable.
> 
> UK nudging 40% for renewable electricity


Show me an energy provider that only supplies you with renewable energy ? 

I might have some magic beans that may interest you ?


----------



## DRM (23 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Oh dear. Not heard of renewable energy? I chose an energy supplier that only uses renewable.
> 
> UK nudging 40% for renewable electricity


That’s 60% that isn’t then, you’ve chosen a billing company that can’t make that claim as you can’t pick and choose which electrons get sent to your house


----------



## DRM (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> As said above, they have probably got that wrong. Other car manufacturers don't seem to be in agreement with them.
> 
> There really doesn't seem to be any good reason at the moment to put a lot of effort into hydrogen power when EVs are improving all the time. Remember, it would need a critical mass of cars being powered that way before it becomes viable, and that just isn't going to happen in the near future.
> 
> That could change in future of course, if we start running out of materials to make batteries with.








they can afford to look into hydrogen power as they worked out how to make a/c motor powered EV’s over 20 years ago, the thing above is exactly the same technology, just different voltage available with li-ion battery power too


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Show me an energy provider that only supplies you with renewable energy ?
> 
> I might have some magic beans that may interest you ?



Octopus for one. I'm on a renewable tariff and it's 5p /kWh to fill my car.


----------



## DRM (23 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Octopus for one. I'm on a renewable tariff and it's 5p /kWh to fill my car.


Doesn’t mean that every bit of electricity going to your home is from renewable sources though does it


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> They are confident that the problems will be overcome.


Who are confident? What is the basis of their confidence? Are they confident that _all_ problems will be overcome? That would be a miracle, as they haven’t come close to solving all the problems associated with ICEs and they’ve had over a century and countless billions of investment thrown at them.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

DRM said:


> Doesn’t mean that every bit of electricity going to your home is from renewable sources though does it


Well you can't split electricity like that but they do guarantee that my total electric use is generated from renewable energy. 

https://octopus.energy/blog/100-green-what-does-it-mean/


----------



## Gillstay (23 Nov 2021)

DRM said:


> Doesn’t mean that every bit of electricity going to your home is from renewable sources though does it


No, but you can be sure all your fuel is from oil. These discussions are almost the same as the ones 25 yrs ago, when you would have been saying `solar panels wont work as there is not enough sun in the UK.'
Your just practicing avoidance as you don't want your life to change. Same as the global warning denial and now the fatalism of if the USA does nothing then we should do nothing.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

DRM said:


> Where does the electric come from? Wouldn’t happen to be a power station would it, that burns wood and rubbish


Some does. Some comes from, renewables. More will come from renewables in future. 

If and when we get an EV, all our home charging will be, since we have just ordered a solar system for home. And that is becoming more an more common, quite apart from the renewable energy going into the national grid.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Show me an energy provider that only supplies you with renewable energy ?
> 
> I might have some magic beans that may interest you ?


Quite a few do now.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

DRM said:


> That’s 60% that isn’t then, you’ve chosen a billing company that can’t make that claim as you can’t pick and choose which electrons get sent to your house


The claim they make is that they purchase enough energy from renewable sources to supply all those on the renewable tariff.

Which is a perfectly reasonable claim.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Nov 2021)

Ive just swapped today to 5.5p for 5 hours of overnight electric. Ive setup timers to charge at this time


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

Biker man said:


> They are confident that the problems will be overcome.


Funny how other car manufacturers don't seem to believe that.

I have no doubt they can make a working hydrogen engined car. I do not for one moment believe they will be able to make it competitive with regular EVs, nor do I think it likely that the costs of creating, transporting and storing the hydrogen will be competitive with charging regular EVs.

Hydrogen Fuel-cell EVs are slightly more likely and some are already in production), but will still have the fuel supply chain issues.

Unless they can persuade other manufacturers to go down the same route, and all of them produce enough vehicles, there will simply be no incentive for anybody to set up hydrogen filling stations.

It isn't impossible, but IMO it is very unlikely to happen.


----------



## Biker man (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Funny how other car manufacturers don't seem to believe that.
> 
> I have no doubt they can make a working hydrogen engined car. I do not for one moment believe they will be able to make it competitive with regular EVs, nor do I think it likely that the costs of creating, transporting and storing the hydrogen will be competitive with charging regular EVs.
> 
> ...


TIme will tell.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

I think it's told already. I'm already seeing plans for EV charging stations around here. 
Nothing about hydrogen garages for the one (?) Toyota car that could use it.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (23 Nov 2021)

It all sounds rather unfortunate for motorcyclists. The announcement has also meant that for the next few decades, cars won't have the improvements that would have otherwise come in emissions, so emissions won't decline as fast as they may have done.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

Apart from the switch to electric cars you mean ?

Petrol cars have had 100 years to improve so why would there be much improvement left to be had ?


----------



## Alex321 (23 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Apart from the switch to electric cars you mean ?
> 
> Petrol cars have had 100 years to improve so why would there be much improvement left to be had ?


Because it is only in the last few years that they have really been paying serious attention to emissions.

Most of that 100 years was devoted to improving power, with some attention to improving fuel consumption. The latter will have indirectly improved emissions of course, but not as much as might have been.


----------



## gavroche (23 Nov 2021)

I thought the catalytic converter was meant to cut down emissions ? Nobody mentions that anymore, could someone tell why?


----------



## Archie_tect (23 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Ive just swapped today to 5.5p for 5 hours of overnight electric. Ive setup timers to charge at this time


Our cheaper economy 7 tariff runs from 1:30 to 5am now... it used to be 11-7 when I were a lad!


----------



## figbat (23 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> I thought the catalytic converter was meant to cut down emissions ? Nobody mentions that anymore, could someone tell why?


Because they are not new. They are passé, but they are still an important factor in minimising emissions. They can only do so much though.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Some does. Some comes from, renewables. More will come from renewables in future.
> 
> If and when we get an EV, all our home charging will be, since we have just ordered a solar system for home. And that is becoming more an more common, quite apart from the renewable energy going into the national grid.



Long way to go I’d say https://grid.iamkate.com/


----------



## cougie uk (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Long way to go I’d say https://grid.iamkate.com/


Just look how far we have come since 2012 though ?


----------



## classic33 (23 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Or tow trailers or have roof boxes on their cars ? *All will have an effect in range with a battery powered car. By how much I don’t know*. Right now the only advantage EVs have are running costs that’s it everything else is a compromise. However that’s where we are heading isn’t it. The more I read up on EVs the more I need to keep the Death Star running for as long as I can


The rack alone: 3.6%.
With a roof box: 16% - 29%*

https://electrek.co/2020/03/24/tesla-model-3-roof-rack-box-range-efficiency/


*Latter figure given on another site.


----------



## All uphill (23 Nov 2021)

gavroche said:


> I thought the catalytic converter was meant to cut down emissions ? Nobody mentions that anymore, could someone tell why?


Catalytic convertors reduce emissions, but do not eliminate them. They are part of the work done to reduce the harmful effects of the ICE.


----------



## Alex321 (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Long way to go I’d say https://grid.iamkate.com/


It is. But over 25% of generation coming from renewables now, and that is only going to increase. It was about 4% in 2012.


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> Our cheaper economy 7 tariff runs from 1:30 to 5am now... it used to be 11-7 when I were a lad!


Yes they were. In fact the economy 7 tariffs are quite poor to the EV overnight pricing. You can get a 6 hour tariff but only for Tesla, need a certain type of charger and only an apple phone  Next year android app and hopefully other vehicles.


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Long way to go I’d say https://grid.iamkate.com/


Did you see the big drop in power demand overnight on the graphs' you supplied. This is where most EV owners charge and why its cheap electric because there is excess energy that needs to be used.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Yes they were. In fact the economy 7 tariffs are quite poor to the EV overnight pricing. You can get a 6 hour tariff but only for Tesla, need a certain type of charger and only an apple phone  Next year android app and hopefully other vehicles.


Hence regulation needs to get sorted out proper, another thing mentioned in Dispatches. Still come across as quite niche owning an EV. It will change , has to certainly with in a decade.


----------



## cougie uk (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Hence regulation needs to get sorted out proper, another thing mentioned in Dispatches. Still come across as quite niche owning an EV. It will change , has to certainly with in a decade.


It's not that niche even now. There's two in my close of 9 houses, they're in every car park I visit now. And that's probably underestimating. If it hasn't got a green plate or I don't recognise the model then I wouldn't even know if a car is electric.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Nov 2021)

3 in my street of 64 houses of which there are probably 120 cars in total  . That’s quite low ! One Model 3 and purely for the tax break as they have a business and then two Audi E Trons . That’s is it . My old street there are none whatsoever not even a hybrid. In my place of work there are none in this mornings shift. However I do know off two staff whom have an EV of some sort .


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> 3 in my street of 64 houses of which there are probably 120 cars in total  . That’s quite low ! One Model 3 and purely for the tax break as they have a business and then two Audi E Trons . That’s is it . My old street there are none whatsoever not even a hybrid. In my place of work there are none in this mornings shift. However I do know off two staff whom have an EV of some sort .


No, it means you live in a deprived neighbourhood


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> No, it means you live in a deprived neighbourhood


Roflol if only you knew


----------



## figbat (24 Nov 2021)

Since getting mine I notice them everywhere, they are more than just niche now, and have moved beyond early adoption, they are verging on mainstream. Almost all OEMs offer them now. With mine, if you didn't see the green rectangle you might not take it for an EV - there are some very subtle badges on it which differentiate it from an ICE version but many people would probably miss these details. That said, in my road I believe I am the only EV owner - there are a couple of PHEVs nearby and a Tesla around the corner. My village has quite an elderly demographic though.


----------



## Alex321 (24 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> My village has quite an elderly demographic though.



The only person I know personally who I know has an EV is one of my Morris dancing friends - who is 83!


----------



## Milzy (24 Nov 2021)

Volvo are saying you need to drive an E.V for 9 years before you off set the CO2 foot print? 
Can’t be true. They still make E.V’s & will phase out IC engines though.


----------



## cougie uk (24 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> Volvo are saying you need to drive an E.V for 9 years before you off set the CO2 foot print?
> Can’t be true. They still make E.V’s & will phase out IC engines though.


Depends on how the Electric is generated. 
According to the life cycle assessment, the C40 Recharge has a CO2 footprint of around *27 tonnes* over its entire life cycle if the charging current comes exclusively from clean energy sources. If, on the other hand, the vehicle owner uses the average global energy mix, in which about 60 per cent of electricity is generated from fossil fuels, emissions rise to as much as 50 tonnes of CO2 – with the EU-28 electricity mix, the figure is still 42 tonnes of CO2.

The Volvo XC40 with combustion engine, for example, has *59 tonnes of CO2* over its life cycle. The so-called “end-of-life” emissions and the share of production in the Volvo factories are the same regardless of the type of drive.

So it does depend on the mix of electricity. I'm on a renewables only tariff - s*o if that was my Volvo - it would be less than 50% of the carbon footprint of the ICE version.*


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Depends on how the Electric is generated.
> According to the life cycle assessment, the C40 Recharge has a CO2 footprint of around *27 tonnes* over its entire life cycle if the charging current comes exclusively from clean energy sources. If, on the other hand, the vehicle owner uses the average global energy mix, in which about 60 per cent of electricity is generated from fossil fuels, emissions rise to as much as 50 tonnes of CO2 – with the EU-28 electricity mix, the figure is still 42 tonnes of CO2.
> 
> The Volvo XC40 with combustion engine, for example, has *59 tonnes of CO2* over its life cycle. The so-called “end-of-life” emissions and the share of production in the Volvo factories are the same regardless of the type of drive.
> ...



Also factor the distance covered. I've added up our EV mileage from our cars. In the last 3 years we've done over 100,000 miles on electric. The emissions saved are huge from tailpipe to using renewable electric supplies.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Also factor the distance covered. I've added up our EV mileage from our cars. In the last 3 years we've done over 100,000 miles on electric. The emissions saved are huge from tailpipe to using renewable electric supplies.


We have done half that mileage in the same period maybe even less  . Some of us are reducing our car usage quite a bit  , that’s the key not what you drive !


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> We have done half that mileage in the same period maybe even less  . Some of us are reducing our car usage quite a bit  , that’s the key not what you drive !


I agree, but we need to take our kids to school. By far the better option to use an EV.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I agree, but we need to take our kids to school. By far the better option to use an EV.


Can they not walk


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## figbat (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can they not walk


My EV does the school run exclusively now - the petrol car we also have sits idle for long periods until it is needed for longer journeys, larger capacity, shifting loads (bicycles, caravan etc) and/or separate concurrent journeys. The school is 8 miles away, so a bit too far to walk and there is no safe cycling route (even if the kids were up for that, which they're not).


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can they not walk



They can walk, but it would make an African's kids school walk seem like a 5 min stroll 

They'd arrive after school had finished. Reminds me when I used to work 25hours a day, get up before I went to bed Monty sketch


----------



## cougie uk (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> They can walk, but it would make an African's kids school walk seem like a 5 min stroll
> 
> They'd arrive after school had finished. Reminds me when I used to work 25hours a day, get up before I went to bed Monty sketch



We need to think about this in the future - if the kids are to have a future. Local jobs, local schools. I loved my walks to school - well tbh the walks HOME were better - but making a rod for our own backs so we need to have a car to take the kids to school, and then need a job to pay for the car that takes the kids to school etc....

No housing estates should be built unless they have bike paths to schools/shops.


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> We need to think about this in the future - if the kids are to have a future. Local jobs, local schools. I loved my walks to school - well tbh the walks HOME were better - but making a rod for our own backs so we need to have a car to take the kids to school, and then need a job to pay for the car that takes the kids to school etc....
> 
> No housing estates should be built unless they have bike paths to schools/shops.


I remember walking to school at 5-6yrs old, 












about 1 mile on my own-I was not loved


----------



## Alex321 (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> They can walk, but it would make an African's kids school walk seem like a 5 min stroll
> 
> They'd arrive after school had finished. Reminds me when I used to work 25hours a day, get up before I went to bed Monty sketch


When I was a kid, the "school run" simply didn't exist. 

If you lived more than 3 miles from the school, you got a free bus. If less than 3 miles, you were expected to walk or cycle (I used to cycle, it was about 2.5 miles to my grammar school after the first two years, before that it was bus.).

It really should not be necessary now. One day last year, I happened to be cycling through Cowbridge when the local comp was finishing, and I counted 14 school buses between the traffic lights and the school, so why does any parent need to drive their kids to school?


----------



## figbat (24 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> When I was a kid, the "school run" simply didn't exist.
> 
> If you lived more than 3 miles from the school, you got a free bus. If less than 3 miles, you were expected to walk or cycle (I used to cycle, it was about 2.5 miles to my grammar school after the first two years, before that it was bus.).
> 
> It really should not be necessary now. One day last year, I happened to be cycling through Cowbridge when the local comp was finishing, and I counted 14 school buses between the traffic lights and the school, so why does any parent need to drive their kids to school?


I live in a rural area. The school my kids go to is also in a rural village. The catchment area is very wide and covers many similar villages and small towns. The school operates a network of minibuses but they can only realistically cover certain routes without the journeys being convoluted and long. Besides, the school is on a direct line on my way to work, where I am going anyway.

When I were a kid I went to the school in my town, which was a 15 minute walk or 5 minute cycle (assuming straight there and back again ).


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Nov 2021)

Tonight on bbc, there is a slag fest of Tesla. If you want an anti electric program- fill your boots


----------



## Archie_tect (24 Nov 2021)

I doubt anyone would object to a rural school requiring farm children to be bussed or driven to school- car sharing is a great idea too. It's the urban school runs where the homes are a mile or less from school who need to make alternative arrangements- like a 'walking bus'. Our children all met up on the street each morning and walked together.

The reduction in delays [and savings*] from half an hour's standing traffic in the morning and in the evening would be incredible... [* unless everyone has an EV or a hybrid] but then some second cars wouldn't even be needed at all- comes down to priorities and lifestyle choices.


----------



## farfromtheland (24 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> We need to think about this in the future - if the kids are to have a future. Local jobs, local schools.



Yes! But it isn't simply lifestyle choices - options are set by the lack of strategic planning. Housing developments are still being built with commuting in mind. All the electic cars, carbon offsetting or green roofs imaginable won't mitigate this quick profit driven model.

It is more of a choice to send your children to the local school though. Unfortunately privately rented housing is so tenuous you might not stay there for long.


----------



## DRM (24 Nov 2021)

Gillstay said:


> No, but you can be sure all your fuel is from oil. These discussions are almost the same as the ones 25 yrs ago, when you would have been saying `solar panels wont work as there is not enough sun in the UK.'
> Your just practicing avoidance as you don't want your life to change. Same as the global warning denial and now the fatalism of if the USA does nothing then we should do nothing.


Not practicing avoidance, just stating the obvious, yet once all the ice cars have gone, let’s see how the EV’s get taxed to replace lost revenue from petrol & diesel


----------



## cougie uk (24 Nov 2021)

Road pricing I guess. 
So it pays to go EV asap and reap the benefits for as long as possible.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Road pricing I guess.
> So it pays to go EV asap and reap the benefits for as long as possible.


A bit of man maths going on here  . Priced up a Tesla today as our company offers lease options for cars. Scary biscuits  , defo cash positive keeping my Death Star running. The leaf however was a lot closer to breaking even but still costs more per month. I’m holding off for now


----------



## Beebo (24 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Did you see the big drop in power demand overnight on the graphs' you supplied. This is where most EV owners charge and why its cheap electric because there is excess energy that needs to be used.


No solar at night though. 
Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


----------



## dave r (24 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> No solar at night though.
> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.



I did wonder what had happened to that, a long time ago there was a lot of talk about it but thats just faded into the background now.


----------



## Archie_tect (24 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> No solar at night though.
> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


There's solar 24 hours a day somewhere- which is entirely the point of a global solution...


----------



## cougie uk (25 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> No solar at night though.
> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


I guess putting stuff in the sea needs more work than stuff out of salt water. But I'm sure we will get it sorted eventually. Wind turbines improve each year - huuuuge blades on them now.


----------



## CXRAndy (25 Nov 2021)

You should look up Viking and Triton knoll links for energy. Energy can and does come from various countries. My high jump photo


----------



## BrumJim (25 Nov 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> There's solar 24 hours a day somewhere- which is entirely the point of a global solution...


Not easy getting it from there to here though.

But the demand for electricity at night is much lower than during the day, so charging at night uses a much greater percentage of renewables than during the day.


----------



## figbat (25 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


Hydroelectric power in the UK is mostly from pumped storage reservoirs, as well as some unpumped (naturally-filled) and small amounts of river-flow turbines. Wave/tide capture energy is still a small blip on the chart.

We are not as topographically endowed with hydroelectric capability as some countries.


----------



## figbat (25 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> Hydroelectric power in the UK is mostly from pumped storage reservoirs, as well as some unpumped (naturally-filled) and small amounts of river-flow turbines. Wave/tide capture energy is still a small blip on the chart.
> 
> We are not as topographically endowed with hydroelectric capability as some countries.


Which makes me wonder if the hydroelectric capacity being claimed is gross or net? In other words, do they take out the energy used to pump the water into the reservoir in off-peak times? Or does that simply show up in one of the other power source figures?


----------



## cougie uk (25 Nov 2021)

Considering we had our first hydroelectric scheme in 1878 - it's not really caught on in the UK. Wish I had a river running through my garden - I'd be sorted !

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/features/hydropower-returns-to-cragside


----------



## CXRAndy (25 Nov 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Not easy getting it from there to here though.


Speed of light fast


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (25 Nov 2021)

They - whoever 'they' are - keep coming up with plans for tidal power in the Mersey

I was reading about the newest version a few weeks ago

Given the power and flow rate there has to be a possibility of doing something but nothing ever happens
I presume it just turns out to be too expensive to build and maintain - and the ecological costs always turn out to be a problem


----------



## farfromtheland (25 Nov 2021)

figbat said:


> We are not as topographically endowed with hydroelectric capability as some countries.



Well, bits of us are, but the wrong bits these days. Wales and Scotland are the ideal centres of future industry. Both sides of the Pennines can work. London and the south east need to be put out to pasture.

Small scale hydro and tidal power work fine - there just isn't big money profit in it. 

Battery power storage of any kind is deeply regressive in terms of global resources - but for a little while it gives us the illusion of consumer comfort. Scrap that! We are pampered stupid.


----------



## mustang1 (25 Nov 2021)

Chris S said:


> I can remember the outrage when petrol reached £1 a litre in the 1990s. Some garages had to change their pumps because they could only cope with a 2-digit price. I don't drive anymore so if it is a conspiracy to get people out of petrol cars then it's working.



I remember when it changed from gallons to litres. I'm sure there was a massive price hike in there somewhere. People generally don't like numbers so the oil companies got away with it.


----------



## cyberknight (25 Nov 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> There's solar 24 hours a day somewhere- which is entirely the point of a global solution...


there on about satellite solar arrays beaming energy via microwave to stations


----------



## farfromtheland (25 Nov 2021)

I would rather have local windmills or watermills pumping water into storage towers running turbines - even with a 30% mechanical energy loss both ways. This is clean and fixable by ordinary competent people.

Less washing, less heating and less rubbish and ditching commuter culture would be the price. I'll buy that.


----------



## oldwheels (25 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> No solar at night though.
> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


A lot of tidal energy schemes on the go around northern Scotland and Orkney.
There is little political support as the Westminster lot do not favour it. Most practical around northern coasts so out of sight and far away.


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## Gillstay (25 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> No solar at night though.
> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


Yes, many of the best schemes got destroyed by big storms. Perhaps we should have done the work sooner .


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## Baldy (25 Nov 2021)

Beebo said:


> No solar at night though.
> Im amazed that hydro is so low. It must be much harder to capture tidal energy than we were led to believe, as no one seems to be doing it.


Hydro is bigger in Scotland than England, we have the right terrain. In fact all the major rivers up here are tamed. Down south is basically "Flatonia" you need water and height to make hydro work. 
As for tidal, there was a company in Fife making tidal water generators but they went bust through lack of investment.


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## roubaixtuesday (25 Nov 2021)

Pumped storage isn't really hydro, just storage for other generating capacity. 

Hydro potential for a country depends on
1. Rainfall
2. Land area
3. Elevation. 
We've got lots of 1, not so much 2 and bugger all 3 compared to say, Norway or even France. There's little potential for more in the UK and certainly not in England. 

Tidal at scale generally relies on the construction of humongous lagoons eg Swansea Bay, with accompanying costs and environmental impacts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_Lagoon_Swansea_Bay

Micro schemes, whether hydro or wind, whilst good of themselves, don't have the potential to impact at UK wide scale. 

Solar gives minimum output when demand peaks, so you either need backups for winter or massive redundancy. 

The good news is we've got lots of wind, and, that leccy cars are so efficient they use less than petrol cars even if their leccy is generated from fossil fuels and that smart charging of them can help level demand.


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## roubaixtuesday (25 Nov 2021)

Centre for alternative technology has a rather good (though it's a while since I read it) report on zero carbon. They're anti nuclear, mind. 

As I recall, you need everyone to go vegan, ditch private cars and store lots of biomass gas for winter. I may be exaggerating, but not by much. 

https://en.cat.org.uk/info-resource...rbon-britain-rising-to-the-climate-emergency/


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## Gillstay (25 Nov 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Centre for alternative technology has a rather good (though it's a while since I read it) report on zero carbon. They're anti nuclear, mind.
> 
> As I recall, you need everyone to go vegan, ditch private cars and store lots of biomass gas for winter. I may be exaggerating, but not by much.
> 
> https://en.cat.org.uk/info-resource...rbon-britain-rising-to-the-climate-emergency/


They also give good advice on how to power your home. Changed us on how we did it, and saved a small fortune on heating oil.


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## MrGrumpy (26 Nov 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/thealiceroberts/status/1464307897836482560?s=21


Just stumbled upon this , some real life feedback on an EV. Pitfalls abound. When it works it’s great but when it’s not……..


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## Mike_P (26 Nov 2021)

Presumably just using a basic EV charger; mode 3 charging on a minimum 16amp circuit is typically specified for new domestic installations.


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## cougie uk (26 Nov 2021)

She's sorted now.


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## cougie uk (26 Nov 2021)

I suspect it's user error. Using the wrong cable. A bit like forgetting your car is diesel and putting petrol in but a lot less catastrophic.


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## MrGrumpy (26 Nov 2021)

Seems like we need a standard charger fitment ?


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## MrGrumpy (27 Nov 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779

Mentioned already in this thread.


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## gzoom (27 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Seems like we need a standard charger fitment ?



There is rapid charging standards and protocols have been in place since around 2013 - Type 2 for AC charging, and CCS for DC charging.


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

gzoom said:


> There is rapid charging standards and protocols have been in place since around 2013 - Type 2 for AC charging, and CCS for DC charging.


And chademo-Nissan. People are really thick, they dont seem to do any research of the vehicle they own.

Bleat on social media, look even thicker after their error has been pointed out. 

Its akin, to not knowing how to change a wheel


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

Mike_P said:


> Presumably just using a basic EV charger; mode 3 charging on a minimum 16amp circuit is typically specified for new domestic installations.


I was under impression all would have 7kWatts. Developers were complaining they would have to pay for substation upgrades or higher capacity


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## Cerdic (27 Nov 2021)

gzoom said:


> There is rapid charging standards and protocols have been in place since around 2013 - Type 2 for AC charging, and CCS for DC charging.



This is exactly why everything about electric cars needs simplifying. To the average blob on the street this is just a jumble of random initials. Then there is all the stuff about 'kilowatt hours'. It's all far too technical for most people. 

And don't even start on public charging networks. This one you need to have an account for, this one is just for owners of a particular brand, etc, etc. Too complex! If I want petrol I can get it at any petrol station and pay cash. You don't have to have an account with them before Shell will let you fill up! You're not going to find special pumps on the forecourt that are reserved for Peugeot owners...

I like electric cars. I've driven some. I suggested to my wife she should look at one last time she changed her car. After looking at some of this stuff she was 'nope, too complicated, my life is too busy and stressful without trying to figure all this out'. So she ended up with a hybrid. I doubt she is the only person who has done this!


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## cougie uk (27 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> This is exactly why everything about electric cars needs simplifying. To the average blob on the street this is just a jumble of random initials. Then there is all the stuff about 'kilowatt hours'. It's all far too technical for most people.
> 
> And don't even start on public charging networks. This one you need to have an account for, this one is just for owners of a particular brand, etc, etc. Too complex! If I want petrol I can get it at any petrol station and pay cash. You don't have to have an account with them before Shell will let you fill up! You're not going to find special pumps on the forecourt that are reserved for Peugeot owners...
> 
> I like electric cars. I've driven some. I suggested to my wife she should look at one last time she changed her car. After looking at some of this stuff she was 'nope, too complicated, my life is too busy and stressful without trying to figure all this out'. So she ended up with a hybrid. I doubt she is the only person who has done this!


People are dumb. 
They manage to put the wrong fuel in their tanks. 

I'm just not sure what you'd need to do to make it easier for those guys. 

Meanwhile - a small bit of reading and you're good to go.


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> This is exactly why everything about electric cars needs simplifying. To the average blob on the street this is just a jumble of random initials. Then there is all the stuff about 'kilowatt hours'. It's all far too technical for most people.
> 
> And don't even start on public charging networks. This one you need to have an account for, this one is just for owners of a particular brand, etc, etc. Too complex! If I want petrol I can get it at any petrol station and pay cash. You don't have to have an account with them before Shell will let you fill up! You're not going to find special pumps on the forecourt that are reserved for Peugeot owners...
> 
> I like electric cars. I've driven some. I suggested to my wife she should look at one last time she changed her car. After looking at some of this stuff she was 'nope, too complicated, my life is too busy and stressful without trying to figure all this out'. So she ended up with a hybrid. I doubt she is the only person who has done this!



You really dont need to worry about most of it. Electricity is the same. Connection type ( virtually all are or will be type 2/CCS ). Its all part of the same connection on the car. 

Charging a car is either slow, fast or rapid. Slow and fast for homes. Fast and rapid for when charging away from home. 

Thats it. You roll up with a credit card and or phone, swipe and away you go charging


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Its akin, to not knowing how to change a wheel


Many folk can't even do that.


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## Cerdic (27 Nov 2021)

Surely the point is to encourage people to make the switch?

Calling them dumb and encouraging them to read stuff they don't want to and don't have time to is not really helping, is it?

Also, Alice Roberts isn't dumb. She was a surgeon and is now a professor at Birmingham University. My wife isn't dumb. She is an English teacher and deputy principal of a secondary school. It should seem simple to them and yet it isn't. I would say that is the fault of the manufacturers.


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## Cerdic (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You really dont need to worry about most of it. Electricity is the same. Connection type ( virtually all are or will be type 2/CCS ). Its all part of the same connection on the car.
> 
> Charging a car is either slow, fast or rapid. Slow and fast for homes. Fast and rapid for when charging away from home.
> 
> Thats it. You roll up with a credit card and or phone, swipe and away you go charging



That's interesting. When I looked into it a couple of years ago there were several charging networks and they all required an account with its own card and/or app. Have they made it easier in the meantime?


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Surely the point is to encourage people to make the switch?
> 
> Calling them dumb and encouraging them to read stuff they don't want to and don't have time to is not really helping, is it?
> 
> Also, Alice Roberts isn't dumb. She was a surgeon and is now a professor at Birmingham University. My wife isn't dumb. She is an English teacher and deputy principal of a secondary school. It should seem simple to them and yet it isn't. I would say that is the fault of the manufacturers.


It's fear to change, so folk come up with irrational arguments. I read up online, showed my wife how to charge at a supercharger. Job done, she would never go back to a ICE vehicle


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> Many folk can't even do that.


Before my daughter and son were allowed to start driving, I got them to change a wheel on the car, learn where the oil, coolant, washer fluids were. How to check brake fluid and braking system.

Its part of the driving test, well some of it is. Pity it doesn't fail the learner if you know naff all about basic car maintenance


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## Cerdic (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> It's fear to change, so folk come up with irrational arguments. I read up online, showed my wife how to charge at a supercharger. Job done, she would never go back to a ICE vehicle



Yes, I agree that charging is ridiculously simple. We had some EVs at work. Open the flap, plug in, wait till car says its full. No worries.

That simplicity should be a selling point. But somehow we have a situation where well-known academics are using the wrong type of plug! Not great PR for a technology that needs to overcome a fair bit of resistance from a lot of people.

I feel the manufacturers should have thought it through a bit more...


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Before my daughter and son were allowed to start driving, I got them to change a wheel on the car, learn where the oil, coolant, washer fluids were. How to check brake fluid and braking system.
> 
> Its part of the driving test, well some of it is. Pity it doesn't fail the learner if you know naff all about basic car maintenance



My son can swap engines, without formal training. Should be fun teaching my daughter to change a wheel...


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## MrGrumpy (27 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Surely the point is to encourage people to make the switch?
> 
> Calling them dumb and encouraging them to read stuff they don't want to and don't have time to is not really helping, is it?
> 
> Also, Alice Roberts isn't dumb. She was a surgeon and is now a professor at Birmingham University. My wife isn't dumb. She is an English teacher and deputy principal of a secondary school. It should seem simple to them and yet it isn't. I would say that is the fault of the manufacturers.


Yep I did find that funny , she’s not what I would describe as dumb.


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## cougie uk (27 Nov 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Surely the point is to encourage people to make the switch?
> 
> Calling them dumb and encouraging them to read stuff they don't want to and don't have time to is not really helping, is it?
> 
> Also, Alice Roberts isn't dumb. She was a surgeon and is now a professor at Birmingham University. My wife isn't dumb. She is an English teacher and deputy principal of a secondary school. It should seem simple to them and yet it isn't. I would say that is the fault of the manufacturers.



But people are dumb. You can see this every day. 
I don't know what happened in Alice's case. Maybe she used the wrong cable or maybe there was an issue with the charger. 

My wife absolutely hated the EV to begin with. She hates change. Now she's used to it she loves it. 

You need to learn stuff to drive. You need to learn new stuff to drive a new car. It's the same with EVs. 

Nobody's born with the innate knowledge of what charger to use. You have to read up.


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## classic33 (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You really dont need to worry about most of it. Electricity is the same. Connection type ( virtually all are or will be type 2/CCS ). Its all part of the same connection on the car.
> 
> Charging a car is either slow, fast or rapid. Slow and fast for homes. Fast and rapid for when charging away from home.
> 
> Thats it. You roll up with a credit card and or phone, swipe and away you go charging


Being picky I know, but how would the system know how much you were charging up by before you started charging?

You pay for petrol/diesel after filling up, unless you pay for a set amount. Will that be carried over to charging points.


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

The cost of EV's are outside most peoples budget. Sorry but unless they get cheaper. I do 'ownership' not lease - maybe it needs to be lease for leccy cars only. Lovely on your company car scheme......

Cars generally are a waste of money. Electric, even a bigger cost.


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## vickster (27 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> My son can swap engines, without formal training. Should be fun teaching my daughter to change a wheel...


Not very successfully it seems…how many has he destroyed now?


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

vickster said:


> Not very successfully it seems…how many has he destroyed now?



Well he can swap them, it's what goes on after with tuning ...... On number three engine, two down - it's what the tuners do. If he didn't insist on the mapping, then I'm sure all would be OK. We said you are allowed to use the Aygo, but you aren't touching it...

He's not got number 3 engine working as he's working 6 days a week, long hours too, so it's Sunday only. He's got use of the Aygo, but I've said don't you dare touch it.  Plan is for daughter to learn, then maybe she has it. Or sell at some point.


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Being picky I know, but how would the system know how much you were charging up by before you started charging?
> 
> You pay for petrol/diesel after filling up, unless you pay for a set amount. Will that be carried over to charging points.


You can set charge limits on lots of EVs or you can work out speed of charge by the kWatts being fed into the car.

I know my Nissan will charge at 20 miles per hour from a 7kW home charger. My Tesla 3 will do 27miles per hour. When supercharging I go by time, around 30-60 mins will raise charge to around 80%- vehicle dependant. You give your card details first and pay for only what you use in electric at public charging stations.

In the USA and parts of Europe you pay up front an amount and fill up (petrol). If you dont reach the price your card is refunded the difference


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

We need more city electric cars... The Zoe is a nice car, but doesn't seem to sell like the city ICE cars. If a manufacturer could give us an Aygo leccy car for £15k new, then it would sell. 

I've really considered a used Renault Zoe for work, free leccy. But... Cost was £7k, battery rental £70pm. Used ICE car much cheaper and 'fuel' worked out cheaper - even more so now with WFH. Leccy would have been OK for 5 days a week in work.


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I know my Nissan will charge at 20 miles per hour from a 7kW home charger. My Tesla 3 will do 27miles per hour.



So with a Nissan and a Tesla, that's £100k in tin box's that rusts eventually ? I won't spend that much on transport - I'll use my bike.

It's madness money. Leasing etc, massive outlay on a tin box ?


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> So with a Nissan and a Tesla, that's £100k in tin box's that rusts eventually ? I won't spend that much on transport - I'll use my bike.
> 
> It's madness money. Leasing etc, massive outlay on a tin box ?


Oh I didnt include my model S too, so factor £200k


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## vickster (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Oh I didnt include my model S too, so factor £200k


Company cars or self funded though?


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Oh I didnt include my model S too, so factor £200k



There you go then.... waste of earth resources....


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## CXRAndy (27 Nov 2021)

vickster said:


> Company cars or self funded though?


Cash


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## vickster (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Cash


Lucky you. Most people don’t have 200k to spend on cars!


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## midlife (27 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> The cost of EV's are outside most peoples budget. Sorry but unless they get cheaper. I do 'ownership' not lease - maybe it needs to be lease for leccy cars only. Lovely on your company car scheme......
> 
> Cars generally are a waste of money. Electric, even a bigger cost.



The government say that EV and ICE vehicles will reach equivalent costs in 7 years. Using the analogy that microwave ovens were very expensive at the start but with manufacturers using economies of scale they will become cheap utility items in the end.


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## midlife (27 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Cash



Last car I bought this year cost under £4k which was all I could afford.....


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

Take my sister. One little kid, they have a saloon and a middle sized SUV. She was consiering the bigger model next...WTF, only one kid. We manged fine with yaris for the kids and my old Primera for big trips.... Cars now are consumable bling items, and electric ones are the new 'trend'.

I convinced my wife I'd get back to commuting into the city centre by bike twice a week as we've got back from covid. I got my spine broke 6 years ago doing it by bike. That's the way forward, not leccy cars. So I do... the days I'm in, I cycle the canal network to work.


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## fossyant (27 Nov 2021)

midlife said:


> Last car I bought this year cost under £4k which was all I could afford.....



We just bought a nice 65mpg plus run about for £2k.... just to save the cost of us running my son to work as his car is busted - saved me driving my old car in traffic when I could ride, and this cheapo is 3x more fuel efficient (6x more when you consider the return trips.


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## FishFright (27 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> We just bought a nice 65mpg plus run about for £2k.... just to save the cost of us running my son to work as his car is busted - saved me driving my old car in traffic when I could ride, and this cheapo is 3x more fuel efficient (6x more when you consider the return trips.



You could buy a decent bike or 2 for that and its even more efficient.


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## midlife (27 Nov 2021)

“there’s the rub” as Shakespeare wrote. It’s the cost of EV which is the main factor for most folk. I’m sure must on CC would swap to an EV if they could. I would, the people I bought this house off had an EV and there’s a charger point on the drive.


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## farfromtheland (3 Dec 2021)

"...a joy propos'd: behind, a dream. All this the world well knows..."

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...lectric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/
...or, out of the frying pan into the fire - battery storage is hugely costly to the environment and looks to remain so.


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## cougie uk (3 Dec 2021)

farfromtheland said:


> "...a joy propos'd: behind, a dream. All this the world well knows..."
> 
> https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...lectric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/
> ...or, out of the frying pan into the fire - battery storage is hugely costly to the environment and looks to remain so.


That's four years ago though ? Recycling of batteries is becoming better and more common. Once a car battery doesn't hold the range needed - after many years - it can be used for home storage. Hook it up to your solar and you could even be self sufficient.


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## Gillstay (3 Dec 2021)

farfromtheland said:


> "...a joy propos'd: behind, a dream. All this the world well knows..."
> 
> https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017...lectric-cars-carbon-sustainable-power-energy/
> ...or, out of the frying pan into the fire - battery storage is hugely costly to the environment and looks to remain so.


Where was the HUGELY costly ? It does'nt seem to say that.


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## Time Waster (3 Dec 2021)

Article in the news recently said raw materials used in car batteries are going up in price and it will make buying EVs even more out of the range of most people. In another article there's a really big development made in battery tech that will make EVs a whole lot cheaper. 

Conflicting stories, which is right?


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## farfromtheland (3 Dec 2021)

Gillstay, for a start the World Economics Forum page I posted has a meta-tagline 'Producing batteries for green technology harms the environment...'

Then the piece links to this article -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/graphite-mining-pollution-in-china/

Then it says this -
" Firstly, producing an electric vehicle contributes, on average, twice as much to global warming potential and uses double the amount of energy than producing a combustion engine car. This is mainly because of its battery. Battery production uses a lot of energy, from the extraction of raw materials to the electricity consumed in manufacture. "

Then it links to this -
https://www.somo.nl/cobalt-blues/
- which describes the impact of cobalt mining on the Congo which is the main source of Cobalt for battery manufacture, saying,
" This research reveals new evidence of human rights violations and environmental negligence and argues that abuses caused by Katangas industrial mining industry are not only serious, but also structural. " and giving a link to the full report.

Then it discusses the problems of recycling lithion batteries, saying, amongst other things,
" Recycling lithium costs five times as much as extracting virgin material. Hence, only 5% of lithium-ion batteries are recycled in Europe. " As Cougie says, this was 5 years ago. Perhaps recycling is improving? I'd like to see by how much.

If you would like to find out more, please do share.


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## Tenkaykev (4 Dec 2021)

`


farfromtheland said:


> Gillstay, for a start the World Economics Forum page I posted has a meta-tagline 'Producing batteries for green technology harms the environment...'
> 
> Then the piece links to this article -
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/graphite-mining-pollution-in-china/
> ...


I’m of the understanding that LiFePo ( Lithium Ferrous Phosphate ) batteries will be used in the vast majority of batteries. It has several advantages including double the predicted lifetime of Li ion and the ability to withstand a more rugged charge / discharge cycle.
While it doesn’t have quite the range of Li ion, it’s ideal for most people and uses none of the more exotic materials such as cobalt. 
With regards to the report, it’s interesting to see who is funding the World Economic Forum.


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## CXRAndy (4 Dec 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> `
> 
> I’m of the understanding that LiFePo ( Lithium Ferrous Phosphate ) batteries will be used in the vast majority of batteries. It has several advantages including double the predicted lifetime of Li ion and the ability to withstand a more rugged charge / discharge cycle.
> While it doesn’t have quite the range of Li ion, it’s ideal for most people and uses none of the more exotic materials such as cobalt.
> With regards to the report, it’s interesting to see who is funding the World Economic Forum.



Lets sweep under the rug, the environmental cost of extracting crude oil. transportation, refining, more transportation, burning of fuel 

Most of the anti electric propaganda originates from fossil fuel companies or ICE manufacturers 
There are many cherry picking data twisting anti electric data

An example https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/02/aston-martin-pr-firm-anti-electric-vehicle-study


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## Gillstay (4 Dec 2021)

farfromtheland said:


> Gillstay, for a start the World Economics Forum page I posted has a meta-tagline 'Producing batteries for green technology harms the environment...'
> 
> Then the piece links to this article -
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/graphite-mining-pollution-in-china/
> ...


Sorry, still don't see where you go from the hugely costly to the environment, then talk about human rights violations and structural abuses.
You seem to have gone off topic a bit. Its looking like the batteries after they have been in cars can be used power storage where as your stating as though they are used and then thrown away. Years ago a friend put solar panels on his roof. 10 years to pay back. This looked like a poor deal, until 3 months on electric prices rose and it paid off in 7 years. Things are moving forward, what is there to gain from holding back.


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## gzoom (4 Dec 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> I’m of the understanding that LiFePo ( Lithium Ferrous Phosphate ) batteries will be used in the vast majority of batteries.



LiFePo has some serious real world limitations, 50 minutes spent sat at a SC and DC charging rates never get above 30KW.


View: https://youtu.be/fgxOWmHCK8E


Imgaine you have no home charger, and assume you can charge at 150KW at a DC rapid chargers but as soon as winter comes you cannot even charge at 30KW!!! This isn't progress, its going backwards .


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## MrGrumpy (7 Dec 2021)

EVs more likely to suffer tyre damage and wheel damage due to weight . Also damaging the roads more due to excess weight  

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...wheel-tyre-breakdowns-petrol-diesel-cars.html


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## BrumJim (7 Dec 2021)

Not convinced by the statistics on this.

There isn't much to go wrong on an electric car, so would naturally expect non-motor related failures to comprise a much higher proportion of call-outs. Would need to see the %age of electric clients having tyre damage compared with the %age of ICE drivers doing the same.

Insurance companies are not known for rigorous statistical analysis, particularly where it upsets their carefully crafted press-release.


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## cougie uk (7 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> EVs more likely to suffer tyre damage and wheel damage due to weight . Also damaging the roads more due to excess weight
> 
> http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...wheel-tyre-breakdowns-petrol-diesel-cars.html


That's rubbish.

They do point out that EVs have less mechanical breakdowns compared to ICE cars - so it stands to reason that a greater percentage of EV breakdowns are flat tyres. 

I bought my EV in 2020. According to "we buy any car" it's gone up in value. Not had that before !


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## MrGrumpy (7 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I bought my EV in 2020. According to "we buy any car" it's gone up in value. Not had that before !


plenty ICE cars have also gone up in value !


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## CXRAndy (7 Dec 2021)

A little bit of anecdotal evidence. We have driven over 100000 miles in a little over 3 years. No punctures. Best life 48000 miles for a set of tyres, worst 24000 miles. 

We have saved literally thousands of pounds in fuel costs, hundreds in VED. 

Then there is literally thousands of tonnes saved in C02, not to mention exhaust particulates, and NOX.


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## Electric_Andy (7 Dec 2021)

I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as some are making out, regarding school runs. Many more cars on the road now, too dangerous for anyone of primary school age to walk alone. There are no walking buses at mine. More common for both parents to work now, compared to when we were at school.

Walking my son to school would make me 45 minutes late for work every morning. Sometimes there's no way around it. An electric vehicle would not make any difference to safety or congestion, and the green credentials are questionable


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## cougie uk (7 Dec 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as some are making out, regarding school runs. Many more cars on the road now, too dangerous for anyone of primary school age to walk alone. There are no walking buses at mine. More common for both parents to work now, compared to when we were at school.
> 
> Walking my son to school would make me 45 minutes late for work every morning. Sometimes there's no way around it. An electric vehicle would not make any difference to safety or congestion, and the green credentials are questionable


Not that questionable Andy. 

My EV charges off renewables. 

Would you rather that or me burn oil ? 

I agree that electric is no solution to congestion - but maybe Covid has helped that a bit by showing firms that not everyone has to be in a city centre office at the same time.


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## Electric_Andy (8 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> My EV charges off renewables


Ok, in that case I stand corrected!


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## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> , and the green credentials are questionable



Well I'd suggest you leave your diesel idling outside the school gates, watching your son's physical and mental development stunted by the millions of particulates belching out of your exhaust. 


That would be great laugh wouldn't it-not


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Well I'd suggest you leave your diesel idling outside the school gates, watching your son's physical and mental development stunted by the millions of particulates belching out of your exhaust.
> 
> 
> That would be great laugh wouldn't it-not



Far better to send a little lad down a mine in Africa to get stuff for your battery.

Out of sight, out of mind.


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## Electric_Andy (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Well I'd suggest you leave your diesel idling outside the school gates, watching your son's physical and mental development stunted by the millions of particulates belching out of your exhaust.
> 
> 
> That would be great laugh wouldn't it-not


I always park a good distance away from the school and switch my engine off. You should do headlines for the Sun


----------



## Tenkaykev (8 Dec 2021)




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## Illaveago (8 Dec 2021)

What people seem to be forgetting is that in the rush to do away with fossil fuels they are not thinking of the chemicals , plastics and lubricants which are derived from them . Electric vehicles vehicles and even cycles will still need grease for bearings , plastic for components and insulation .
If the oil companies can't sell their petrol and diesel fuel then the prices for other commodities will surely rise .


----------



## figbat (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> What people seem to be forgetting is that in the rush to do away with fossil fuels they are not thinking of the chemicals , plastics and lubricants which are derived from them . Electric vehicles vehicles and even cycles will still need grease for bearings , plastic for components and insulation .
> If the oil companies can't sell their petrol and diesel fuel then the prices for other commodities will surely ride .


Just to add, EVs also need oil for the transmission(s) and new designs of EV with direct-cooled batteries will use an oil-type coolant. Plus there’s brake fluid. Volumes of these are much less than fuel of course, and oil change intervals are much longer than for ICE oil, but there is still demand for oily substances.

There will also be hydrocarbon needs for the energy supply, whether coal/oil/gas for burning, oil for the gas/steam turbines, gearbox lubricants for wind etc.


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## All uphill (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> What people seem to be forgetting is that in the rush to do away with fossil fuels they are not thinking of the chemicals , plastics and lubricants which are derived from them . Electric vehicles vehicles and even cycles will still need grease for bearings , plastic for components and insulation .
> If the oil companies can't sell their petrol and diesel fuel then the prices for other commodities will surely ride .


Less demand for oil-based products surely equates to lower prices?

Yes there will be a hydrocarbon industry for decades, but stopping burning the stuff will make an enormous difference.


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## MrGrumpy (8 Dec 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> View attachment 621192


Says the man who sells cars  . Any car for that matter ?! Maybe he is not shifting enough of them !


----------



## MrGrumpy (8 Dec 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Far better to send a little lad down a mine in Africa to get stuff for your battery.
> 
> Out of sight, out of mind.


Yep it’s lost on some in this thread .


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## Illaveago (8 Dec 2021)

All uphill said:


> Less demand for oil-based products surely equates to lower prices?
> 
> Yes there will be a hydrocarbon industry for decades, but stopping burning the stuff will make an enormous difference.


If their exploration and manufacturing costs are part of their pricing structure then losing sales of certain products will surely be put onto other products .


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## Pale Rider (8 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Says the man who sells cars  . Any car for that matter ?! Maybe he is not shifting enough of them !



At least he can't fiddle the tail pipe emissions on an electric car.


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## cougie uk (8 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Says the man who sells cars  . Any car for that matter ?! Maybe he is not shifting enough of them !



View: https://youtu.be/nkA3Oi7Tztg


Fifth Gear have no cars to sell.


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## cougie uk (8 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Just to add, EVs also need oil for the transmission(s) and new designs of EV with direct-cooled batteries will use an oil-type coolant. Plus there’s brake fluid. Volumes of these are much less than fuel of course, and oil change intervals are much longer than for ICE oil, but there is still demand for oily substances.
> 
> There will also be hydrocarbon needs for the energy supply, whether coal/oil/gas for burning, oil for the gas/steam turbines, gearbox lubricants for wind etc.



I'm pretty sure my bikes use more oil than my EV.


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## Illaveago (8 Dec 2021)

I was a bit surprised by a Top Gear programme I watched yesterday . It was a repeat so it was a year or so ago .
The 3 peeps each had a different car , a BMW hybrid, Volvo hybrid and a Tesla 3. I don't know how many miles they covered but when they filled up I think it was £13 of petrol for the Volvo and 25 minutes charge for the Tesla . My question is is how public charging points are going to operate if and when more electric vehicles become more common ? It is one of the questions my wife and I ask . We sometimes visit her sister in Yorkshire, 180 miles. If we had an electric vehicle we would probably have to recharge at Leicester Forrest, range reduced due to heating , lights , wipers, etc. So as more electric vehicle become more common place the chances are that charging points will be occupied . They would have to operate a queueing system otherwise it would be a free for all .


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I was a bit surprised by a Top Gear programme I watched yesterday . It was a repeat so it was a year or so ago .
> The 3 peeps each had a different car , a BMW hybrid, Volvo hybrid and a Tesla 3. I don't know how many miles they covered but when they filled up I think it was £13 of petrol for the Volvo and 25 minutes charge for the Tesla . My question is is how public charging points are going to operate if and when more electric vehicles become more common ? It is one of the questions my wife and I ask . We sometimes visit her sister in Yorkshire, 180 miles. If we had an electric vehicle we would probably have to recharge at Leicester Forrest, range reduced due to heating , lights , wipers, etc. So as more electric vehicle become more common place the chances are that charging points will be occupied . They would have to operate a queueing system otherwise it would be a free for all .




Infrastructure will improve. However most folk who are buying EVs currently have a drive and charge to full at home if they're doing a long journey the night before. There is going to be an adjustment going forward. 

If you're expecting exactly the same process you now do filling your ICE- you're going to be disappointed.


----------



## cougie uk (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> I was a bit surprised by a Top Gear programme I watched yesterday . It was a repeat so it was a year or so ago .
> The 3 peeps each had a different car , a BMW hybrid, Volvo hybrid and a Tesla 3. I don't know how many miles they covered but when they filled up I think it was £13 of petrol for the Volvo and 25 minutes charge for the Tesla . My question is is how public charging points are going to operate if and when more electric vehicles become more common ? It is one of the questions my wife and I ask . We sometimes visit her sister in Yorkshire, 180 miles. If we had an electric vehicle we would probably have to recharge at Leicester Forrest, range reduced due to heating , lights , wipers, etc. So as more electric vehicle become more common place the chances are that charging points will be occupied . They would have to operate a queueing system otherwise it would be a free for all .



1. I think most EV's will be charged at home. I've had mine for over a year and only charged away from home when on holiday - so not every EV will be fighting for chargers.
2. Motorway rechargers seem to have two bays and often near the entrance to the restaurants - so the worst possible place really. Poorly thought out.
3. New charging stations are now out there that look a lot like petrol stations - 8 bays, 16 bays, - less chance of needing to queue. 
https://www.gridserve.com/2020/12/06/gridserve-opens-uks-first-electric-forecourt/


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## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Far better to send a little lad down a mine in Africa to get stuff for your battery.
> 
> Out of sight, out of mind.


And you don't think these poor kids wouldn't be abused if it was gold, diamonds, stripping circuit boards for precious metals contained in processors. There are many abuses around the world- yet let's all blame it all on lithium mining for all the atrocities -get real. 

You'd better give up your Ebikes then


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> I always park a good distance away from the school and switch my engine off. You should do headlines for the Sun


You drove there in a diesel, it matters not that you park down the road. The area will be polluted. You have openly admitted not wanting to walk your kid to school.


----------



## MrGrumpy (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> And you don't think these poor kids wouldn't be abused if it was gold, diamonds, stripping circuit boards for precious metals contained in processors. There are many abuses around the world- yet let's all blame it all on lithium mining for all the atrocities -get real.
> 
> You'd better give up your Ebikes then


Well thats alright then ! As you were !


----------



## Electric_Andy (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You drove there in a diesel, it matters not that you park down the road. The area will be polluted. You have openly admitted not wanting to walk your kid to school.


incorrect; I want to walk my child to school but I work full time, so if I had to walk back I'd be late for work every day and so lose my job. Maybe stop judging others and lumping everyone in with "too lazy to walk" and maybe consider that some single parent families have problems that you've been lucky enough to avoid


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> incorrect; I want to walk my child to school but I work full time, so if I had to walk back I'd be late for work every day and so lose my job. Maybe stop judging others and lumping everyone in with "too lazy to walk" and maybe consider that some single parent families have problems that you've been lucky enough to avoid


If you live within 2 miles of your kids school. Then walking or cycling is eminently doable. My kids cycled to school 2 miles from the age of 7. Bus when they went to secondary school. Take them earlier let them play in the school grounds or wait patiently


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## cougie uk (8 Dec 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> incorrect; I want to walk my child to school but I work full time, so if I had to walk back I'd be late for work every day and so lose my job. Maybe stop judging others and lumping everyone in with "too lazy to walk" and maybe consider that some single parent families have problems that you've been lucky enough to avoid


Maybe speak to your employer and shift your work hours ? Bike your kids to work ? Different house ? Different school ? There's lots of options available if you wanted to take them. Nobody drove to school back in my day.


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well thats alright then ! As you were !


You're being obtuse in understanding. The world is changing re vehicle transport. 

Blaming aspects that virtually all of use take benefits from, then hypocritically sniping because its in a car doesn't wash


----------



## figbat (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> We sometimes visit her sister in Yorkshire, 180 miles. If we had an electric vehicle we would probably have to recharge at Leicester Forrest, range reduced due to heating , lights , wipers, etc.


Plenty of EVs will do 180 miles without a recharge - you'd probably have to arrange charging whilst you are there though, or on the return journey.


----------



## fossyant (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You'd better give up your Ebikes then




What's an e-bike.... 🍿


----------



## fossyant (8 Dec 2021)

It's OK, Boris will get his marching orders, his missus won't be leading the Government, and you'll all be back to dirty diesels again next year


----------



## Illaveago (8 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Plenty of EVs will do 180 miles without a recharge - you'd probably have to arrange charging whilst you are there though, or on the return journey.


The Guy Martin programme showed that the quoted mileages don't work out in reality . I can remember reading a post on another thread by an owner that in the winter the range could drop to 60% so that would be Leicester for a recharge.


----------



## mustang1 (8 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> Which will almost certainly happen.
> 
> 
> "The reality" hasn't come close to happening yet.
> ...


Uhm, but fossil fuel car prices have been steadily, and plrapidly, going up and they have been around for decades and decades. 
A Nbottom of the rang enissan micra cost £5k in the late 80s. Today it's £14k. Sure, it has more tech and a more powerful engine, but shouldn't the prices have gone down? I think once people get accustomed to paying higher prices, why would any company want to reduce prices?


----------



## cougie uk (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> The Guy Martin programme showed that the quoted mileages don't work out in reality . I can remember reading a post on another thread by an owner that in the winter the range could drop to 60% so that would be Leicester for a recharge.


Guy Martin's program was stupid. Lets drive an EV for 24 hours and see how far we can get. Who drives like that ? 
You do have to learn a different way to drive and recharge though. You don't drain the battery and then charge - it takes longer. Charge when you're 30% or so. Grab a coffee. Go for a wee. It's more relaxed.


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> The Guy Martin programme showed that the quoted mileages don't work out in reality . I can remember reading a post on another thread by an owner that in the winter the range could drop to 60% so that would be Leicester for a recharge.


What would be wrong with that. 180 mile journey is 3 to 3.5 hours. A couple of hours into the journey, stop, have cup of tea, pop to the loo. Car ready and more importantly you're refreshed to be alert


----------



## figbat (8 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> The Guy Martin programme showed that the quoted mileages don't work out in reality . I can remember reading a post on another thread by an owner that in the winter the range could drop to 60% so that would be Leicester for a recharge.


What you haven't read is all the people who have far better range than that, or at least far lower range loss, who aren't posting on forums about it. A 60% dent in range would, I suspect, be atypical and would require a number of factors to align.


----------



## Electric_Andy (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> If you live within 2 miles of your kids school. Then walking or cycling is eminently doable. My kids cycled to school 2 miles from the age of 7. Bus when they went to secondary school. Take them earlier let them play in the school grounds or wait patiently


 Anything is "doable" but doesn't mean to say it's sensible or even remotely convenient. It is not safe for a youngster to cycle to school in my area, end of story. The school also do not allow bikes to be stored on site. And I can't take him in earlier becasue they are not allowed on-site any earlier, so no they can't play on site. Suggesting I'm inpatient by not doing things things you know nothing about is just silly


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## Electric_Andy (8 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Maybe speak to your employer and shift your work hours ? Bike your kids to work ? Different house ? Different school ? There's lots of options available if you wanted to take them. Nobody drove to school back in my day.


 BIking not an option (see above). So you're suggesting that anyone who takes their kids to school in car should move house or move schools just so they can walk


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## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> BIking not an option (see above). So you're suggesting that anyone who takes their kids to school in car should move house or move schools just so they can walk


Well you maybe either priced off the road or barred due to emissions into certain areas in the future. Best to plan ahead


----------



## Pale Rider (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> And you don't think these poor kids wouldn't be abused if it was gold, diamonds, stripping circuit boards for precious metals contained in processors. There are many abuses around the world- yet let's all blame it all on lithium mining for all the atrocities -get real.
> 
> You'd better give up your Ebikes then



Two wrongs, of course, don't make a right.

I could give up my ebikes, but I'm not making claims to be super environmentally friendly.

It's a perfectly fair point that building any car damages the environment, and in the case of a battery car, actively harms children.

There's no way to compare kids in mines to kids breathing particulates.

For what it's worth, I reckon the particulates may cause wider harm, but that doesn't lessen the more concentrated harm done by mining.

I wonder how far electric cars would get if they were not being forced on us by legislation.

Very few of us can afford to add £10k - to £15k for a car to do the same job.


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## Alex321 (8 Dec 2021)

mustang1 said:


> Uhm, but fossil fuel car prices have been steadily, and plrapidly, going up and they have been around for decades and decades.
> A Nbottom of the rang enissan micra cost £5k in the late 80s. Today it's £14k. Sure, it has more tech and a more powerful engine, but shouldn't the prices have gone down? I think once people get accustomed to paying higher prices, why would any company want to reduce prices?


That isn't all that much a of a change in real terms.

Taking 1988 as "late 80's", allowing for inflation, that £5,000 would now be £11,650


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## farfromtheland (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You're being obtuse in understanding. The world is changing re vehicle transport.
> 
> Blaming aspects that virtually all of use take benefits from, then hypocritically sniping because its in a car doesn't wash



I think there is a point to be made that we are all obtuse if we think short term benefits from filthy technology are ok. E-bikes and scooters are small scale. The rare earth mining for magnet components and the aluminium smelting for giant wind turbines are more significant, as is the comparison between the environmental manufacturing costs of new cars versus the retro-fitting of better filters to old ones as they are phased out and even the return to train-based transport planning.

Consumer car use itself is a huge waste of resources, rationally considered, but we come from a society where luxury has become normal. 40 years ago Beijing was saturated with bicycles - a better model surely? 
Perhaps the recycling of lithion batteries is improving, as some posters say, but perhaps this is wishful thinking... Please post the information, I'd like to know.


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## MrGrumpy (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Well you maybe either priced off the road or barred due to emissions into certain areas in the future. Best to plan ahead


Not for a long time and hopefully by then there will be better choice than what’s currently on offer. If not there are going to be an awful lot of older cars still going around on the roads.


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## Milzy (8 Dec 2021)

I thought I’d like a model 3 but no. The new Cupra born looks amazing & does 325 miles a charge.


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## MrGrumpy (8 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You drove there in a diesel, it matters not that you park down the road. The area will be polluted. You have openly admitted not wanting to walk your kid to school.


It’s now big bad diesel ?! Maybe EVs will be big and bad as well ! ? Nothing worse than the self righteous now telling us we are all evil because we choose to keep driving an ICE vehicle  .


----------



## MrGrumpy (8 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Maybe speak to your employer and shift your work hours ? Bike your kids to work ? Different house ? Different school ? There's lots of options available if you wanted to take them. Nobody drove to school back in my day.


Back in the day generally both parents didn’t work . Didn’t need too I’m guessing. That came later once everyone was encouraged to be their house. So now we have people driving and dropping off at school before work. All of my work colleagues partners all work full time. All drive , all have more than one car .


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## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2021)

Milzy said:


> I thought I’d like a model 3 but no. The new Cupra born looks amazing & does 325 miles a charge.


Its based on the VW id3 platform. Different dress. I'd wait till its has an EPA rating for range. 325 could be WLTP, ve ry much like the NEDC for ICE-no relationship to real driving.

Looks better than the ID3, more mainstream


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## icowden (8 Dec 2021)

Milzy said:


> I thought I’d like a model 3 but no. The new Cupra born looks amazing & does 325 miles a charge.



Looks good but hasn't got half of the functionality of a Tesla as far as I can see.


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## farfromtheland (9 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Back in the day generally both parents didn’t work . Didn’t need too I’m guessing. That came later once everyone was encouraged to be their house. So now we have people driving and dropping off at school before work. All of my work colleagues partners all work full time. All drive , all have more than one car .


There is almost nothing that makes me grumpier than the over-cooked mortgage economy.

Don't know the age range here, but do you remember 'Tomorrow's World' with James Burke? Early evening 1970s BBC. The 3 day week was seen as a boon of future technology! Bring it on!

Capitalist-enabling-style feminism left me out - I am a strong believer in bringing up your own children. 'Childcare' became the main demand rather than egalitarian parenthood sharing. Meanwhile, though, schools can have breakfast clubs, employers less inflexible working and working from home is now a big thing.

I do drive - but am trying to do a lot less of it. At least 50% less. But I wouldn't get an electric car or van even if I could afford one - seems like out of the frying pan into the fire all things considered.


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## farfromtheland (9 Dec 2021)

If methane gas could be cleanly harvested from farms and polar ice melts and rubbish dumps I think we could convert most petrol engines very easily. Intake through the air system and a relatively clean burn.

I'm not suggesting this on a large scale at this late stage! As a sort of mini-mad-max rural contingency it has a certain charm.


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## figbat (9 Dec 2021)

farfromtheland said:


> If methane gas could be cleanly harvested from farms and polar ice melts and rubbish dumps I think we could convert most petrol engines very easily. Intake through the air system and a relatively clean burn.
> 
> I'm not suggesting this on a large scale! But as a sort of mini-mad-max rural contingency it has a certain charm.


This is already done for power generation - landfill sites are mined for flammable gases which are fed into large engines which run generators. It is easier to do on-site as you don't need to compress/liquify and transport the gas - for mobility use you would have to, which all adds to the energy demand of the infrastructure.


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## cougie uk (9 Dec 2021)

There are a lot of people having to work to pay off huge mortgages and flashy car loans. Long commutes to get the big wages and long hours. 
A simpler life with less frills might not be fashionable but it's a healthier way to go. For the planet and the person involved.


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## Tenkaykev (9 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> This is already done for power generation - landfill sites are mined for flammable gases which are fed into large engines which run generators. It is easier to do on-site as you don't need to compress/liquify and transport the gas - for mobility use you would have to, which all adds to the energy demand of the infrastructure.


Yes indeed, locally there’s a waste disposal centre that was once a quarry and is now a hill! They generate electricity from methane capture. A bridleway runs past it and you hear the occasional hiss as the anti odour sprays discharge. There’s also a small trading estate built on reclaimed land. The car parks and verges have ventilation poles that go deep into the ground and have stainless steel spinners mounted on the top to create negative pressure and draw the methane out.


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## farfromtheland (10 Dec 2021)

Even Boris Johnson was caught in soundbite saying that commuting was now off. Perhaps a PR faux-pas, but Radio London reported it and I wish I'd remembered his exact words.

Seems landfill might be rather greener than refuse burning for energy generation in the long run!


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## mustang1 (11 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> That isn't all that much a of a change in real terms.
> 
> Taking 1988 as "late 80's", allowing for inflation, that £5,000 would now be £11,650


That's why I'm an advocate of don't save for anything. By the time you can save enough money, the price has gone up.


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## CXRAndy (16 Dec 2021)

EV Government rebate has been reduced yesterday to £1500, down from £2500. .

Government surprised by the speed of EV take-up, so cost cuttings are being made.

My first EV I got £5000
Subsequent one all been £3.5k 

Hurry hurry before its all gone


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## icowden (16 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> EV Government rebate has been reduced yesterday to £1500, down from £2500. .
> Government surprised by the speed of EV take-up, so cost cuttings are being made.



That thing we wanted you to do... we didn't think you would actually do it....


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## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> What would be wrong with that. 180 mile journey is 3 to 3.5 hours. A couple of hours into the journey, stop, have cup of tea, pop to the loo. Car ready and more importantly you're refreshed to be alert


A journey up to Yorkshire in a petrol drive car takes 4.5 hrs with a stop at Leicester Forrest . 
The new presenter on Fifth Gear gave some interesting figures . I think she was driving a Kia or Hyundai EV range over 300molrs yet she was saying that you have your eye constantly on the charge gauge . She went on to cover domestic charging times . A conventional charge from home on a flat battery to full would take 28hours. The programme featured some electric city cars . An electric Mini . I think the range was 100+ , not sure of exact figures . Charging time from 20% to 80% charge 36 minutes . Now if we were to go for a car like that we would get to Gloucester and charge . 36 mins . Leicester charge ,36 mins . Sheffield 36 mins + 4.5 hours minimum . That is if the charging points were free.


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## figbat (16 Dec 2021)

Also the £350 grant for home charger installation stops in March ‘22. Even if you don’t have an EV now it may be worth thinking about getting one now for the future.


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## CXRAndy (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> A journey up to Yorkshire in a petrol drive car takes 4.5 hrs with a stop at Leicester Forrest .
> The new presenter on Fifth Gear gave some interesting figures . I think she was driving a Kia or Hyundai EV range over 300molrs yet she was saying that you have your eye constantly on the charge gauge . She went on to cover domestic charging times . A conventional charge from home on a flat battery to full would take 28hours. The programme featured some electric city cars . An electric Mini . I think the range was 100+ , not sure of exact figures . Charging time from 20% to 80% charge 36 minutes . Now if we were to go for a car like that we would get to Gloucester and charge . 36 mins . Leicester charge ,36 mins . Sheffield 36 mins + 4.5 hours minimum . That is if the charging points were free.



My daughter has gone to Edinburgh from our home. One way journey 360 miles. She set off in the Model 3, stopped around Darlington on the A1. 25mins charging to 90%. They went sightseeing in Durham Arrived in Edinburgh later in the afternoon. They popped into Tesla Dealer, charge up to 90% 20mins and then parked car in hotel. The first stop was a chance to have a coffee, loo and stretch legs. 

So one additional stop of 20 mins- however they will be ready to drive home at the end of their stay with a circa 90% charge, Probably stop at Darlington on return.


----------



## Illaveago (16 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> My daughter has gone to Edinburgh from our home. One way journey 360 miles. She set off in the Model 3, stopped around Darlington on the A1. 25mins charging to 90%. They went sightseeing in Durham Arrived in Edinburgh later in the afternoon. They popped into Tesla Dealer, charge up to 90% 20mins and then parked car in hotel. The first stop was a chance to have a coffee, loo and stretch legs.
> 
> So one additional stop of 20 mins- however they will be ready to drive home at the end of their stay with a circa 90% charge, Probably stop at Darlington on return.


Not everyone can afford £43,000 for a used Tesla 3 . That is about all I can find price wise . I do not see new prices .


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## icowden (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Not everyone can afford £43,000 for a used Tesla 3 . That is about all I can find price wise . I do not see new prices .



A new one will cost you £42,990 for the single motor model. That used Model 3 is likely to be the Long Range version which starts at £49,990.
You can achieve similar distance and stops with other BEVS. You might need to stop a bit longer, or plan an extra stop if you pick something with very short range but most models achieve 200+ miles. So starting from home fully charged, one stop.

You don't need to constantly have your eye on the charge gauge any more than you need to be constantly looking at the fuel gauge on an ICE car. The Fifth Gear presenter clearly wasn't used to electric cars. Almost all models will tell you when you are getting low and will help route you to an available charge point.

A conventional charge from home would take you 28 hours *but only if you were plugging into a 240v socket*. If you have a charge port fitted, then charging will be considerably quicker. In any event a "full" charge isn't necessarily needed. EVs charge in a graded manner with the middle part of the charge being the quickest. They then downscale the charging pace as they get closer to full.

Yes, if you go for a Mini they aren't designed to go long range. They have about 100 miles of range in normal use. A petrol Mini has about 200 miles of range. A VW ID3 or leaf E+ is probably a better car for longer journeys whilst still being affordable compared to a Model 3.

Prices will drop over time


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## figbat (16 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> A new one will cost you £42,990 for the single motor model. That used Model 3 is likely to be the Long Range version which starts at £49,990.
> You can achieve similar distance and stops with other BEVS. You might need to stop a bit longer, or plan an extra stop if you pick something with very short range but most models achieve 200+ miles. So starting from home fully charged, one stop.
> 
> You don't need to constantly have your eye on the charge gauge any more than you need to be constantly looking at the fuel gauge on an ICE car. The Fifth Gear presenter clearly wasn't used to electric cars. Almost all models will tell you when you are getting low and will help route you to an available charge point.
> ...


I’m normally in agreement with your analyses but I can say from experience that my petrol MINI got 350-380 miles from a ‘charge’ (my electric MINI gets the 100 you state). But the point is that I rarely drove my petrol MINI over 100 miles in one go and so far my electric one has taken me everywhere I have needed it to.


----------



## icowden (16 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> I’m normally in agreement with your analyses but I can say from experience that my petrol MINI got 350-380 miles from a ‘charge’ (my electric MINI gets the 100 you state). But the point is that I rarely drove my petrol MINI over 100 miles in one go and so far my electric one has taken me everywhere I have needed it to.



Fair enough :-) I was just going by some stats from Mr Google. It probably depends on the model of Mini and the age of the Mini.


----------



## figbat (16 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> Fair enough :-) I was just going by some stats from Mr Google. It probably depends on the model of Mini and the age of the Mini.


Indeed. My case is quasi-scientific since the petrol one and electric one are almost the same power and general performance and I drive them over the same roads at the same times And have done so back-to-back.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> Not everyone can afford £43,000 for a used Tesla 3 . That is about all I can find price wise . I do not see new prices .


There are other makes Kia, Hyundai, Nissan, and others that are much cheaper, will do well into the 200+ range even 250+ miles in summer. We have a Nissan Leaf+ and Id planned to go and collect a dog from Leeds around 220 mile round trip I was going to stop at knottingley services for a rapid charge. This would take approx. 35mins


----------



## cougie uk (16 Dec 2021)

Illaveago said:


> A journey up to Yorkshire in a petrol drive car takes 4.5 hrs with a stop at Leicester Forrest .
> The new presenter on Fifth Gear gave some interesting figures . I think she was driving a Kia or Hyundai EV range over 300molrs yet she was saying that you have your eye constantly on the charge gauge . She went on to cover domestic charging times . A conventional charge from home on a flat battery to full would take 28hours. The programme featured some electric city cars . An electric Mini . I think the range was 100+ , not sure of exact figures . Charging time from 20% to 80% charge 36 minutes . Now if we were to go for a car like that we would get to Gloucester and charge . 36 mins . Leicester charge ,36 mins . Sheffield 36 mins + 4.5 hours minimum . That is if the charging points were free.



That Fifth Gear had some interesting things but then the final selection for their city car - was which one was fastest round a track. 

In what way was that relevant to a city car ? Just lazy program making. 
I've never raced my car round a track in all my years - absolutely pointless.


----------



## Jenkins (16 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> That Fifth Gear had some interesting things but then the final selection for their city car - was which one was fastest round a track.
> 
> In what way was that relevant to a city car ? Just lazy program making.
> I've never raced my car round a track in all my years - absolutely pointless.


I think it was also in the top two for cost, shortest range, size and weight (the Honda e)


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (17 Dec 2021)

This.......... thing......... just cropped up on the YouTube homepage

It's tiny!!!
But monstrously fast


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yN4lFpvYz0

https://mcmurtry.com
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...ng-how-warp-speed-ev-could-redefine-supercars

Less than 1000kg
0-300kph (186MPH) in less that 9 seconds (estimated; computer simulations?)
1 BHP/Kg
350 mile road-range (?)


----------



## cyberknight (17 Dec 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> This.......... thing......... just cropped up on the YouTube homepage
> 
> It's tiny!!!
> But monstrously fast
> ...



never get that over a speed bump


----------



## gzoom (19 Dec 2021)

Just came home from a 200 miles weekend break in the peak district. We stayed in a lovely nearly 300 years old cottage with no off road parking, but thanks the ubiquity of electricity, a simple 3 pin plug + extension cable sorted any charging issues out. 

Coming up to 5 years in this car soon, 50K+ miles on the clock, its getting easier and easier to live with an EV.


----------



## Electric_Andy (19 Dec 2021)

My local Morrison's has just got an EV charging station in the car park. Only one, but I can see more of them being put in in future. It must be a good incentive for people to charge their car whilst they shop


----------



## CXRAndy (19 Dec 2021)

Daughter has returned from 720 mile trip in our Model 3. Absolutely loved the way it drives, simplicity of charging. She said that if she'd done the journey in her old Polo, she would have stopped for the same time to refuel, eat and stretch legs. She loves adaptive auto cruise


----------



## gbb (19 Dec 2021)

Been thinking about this, no desire, need or reason to have an electric car, but i wouldn't object if it became affordable, and more importantly for me personally, I had access to a charging point ( my car has to be parked on road with no current access to electricity)
Biggest journeys are generally a 120 mile round trip, 3 maybe 4 times a year, commute 15 miles each day so perfectly do-able day today...and lets face it, many affordable ICE cars have no character anymore its just a change In mindset and a very occasionally change in routine or planning on a long distance trip.
I could see myself with one but currently have no access to charging equipment of any sort. 
Still not convinced batteries are the future mind, no current recycling, availability of materials etc etc.


----------



## cougie uk (19 Dec 2021)

Batteries are being recycled now. Old car packs into home electric storage and lots of other uses.

Affordability will come with time and number of cars on the road.


----------



## MrGrumpy (20 Dec 2021)

gbb said:


> Been thinking about this, no desire, need or reason to have an electric car, but i wouldn't object if it became affordable, and more importantly for me personally, I had access to a charging point ( my car has to be parked on road with no current access to electricity)



you have a while yet , contrary to what you read on here petrol and diesel will be around along time yet. Brand new hybrids will be banned from 2035 remember ! EVs Will I hope anyway become a bit more affordable and by then also we will see what like a 10yr old EV residually and the nick of the batteries.


----------



## Alex321 (20 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> you have a while yet , contrary to what you read on here petrol and diesel will be around along time yet. Brand new hybrids will be banned from 2035 remember ! EVs Will I hope anyway become a bit more affordable and by then also we will see what like a 10yr old EV residually and the nick of the batteries.


I reckon between 15 and 20 years before it becomes unviable to keep running a petrol car, possibly a little longer for diesel. That being mainly due to all the filling stations that sell petrol closing as demand drops to the point they aren't financially viable. Diesel will probably last a bit longer because of goods vehicles, although the filling stations for those would have to keep providing the lower volume pumps that cars need.


----------



## MrGrumpy (20 Dec 2021)

That’s a fair assumption, hence no rush yet , the market is young.


----------



## CXRAndy (20 Dec 2021)

Daughter has now taken our Leaf for a 260 mile round trip. They will charge for 35-45 mins whilst eating their Maccy Ds. Lots of them have installed EV charge stations. This will allow them to return without any charging.


----------



## nickyboy (21 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> Also the £350 grant for home charger installation stops in March ‘22. Even if you don’t have an EV now it may be worth thinking about getting one now for the future.


You must either have an EV/PHEV on order or own one to qualify for the grant


----------



## Svendo (21 Dec 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> My humble Ford has 'keyless go', but there is a key blade inside the fob.
> 
> This means that with a bit of fiddling I should always be able to get inside, although once in there's nowhere to stuff the key blade, so I think I'm still reliant on the remote fob telling the car it can start.


Our Ford is the same, if Fob’s battery is flat there’s a spot in the centre console where the car detects the fob with, I guess, NFC. Had to use it when I’d put a pound shop battery in the Fob and it went from ‘battery low’ warning to dead within in a day.


----------



## figbat (21 Dec 2021)

nickyboy said:


> You must either have an EV/PHEV on order or own one to qualify for the grant


Good point. Best get on and order those EVs then!


----------



## CXRAndy (22 Dec 2021)

I was going to go out and fill up the car on this chilly morning


Then I remembered, Id done it when I parked in the drive


----------



## Pale Rider (22 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Affordability will come with time and number of cars on the road.



This is often asserted, but I doubt it's realistic.

Greater demand usually means higher prices.

Have new petrol cars ever reduced in price?

At present, used EVs are fetching strong money.

Their prices might soften a little as more come on the market.


----------



## Alex321 (22 Dec 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> This is often asserted, but I doubt it's realistic.
> 
> Greater demand usually means higher prices.


Only if supply is fixed.

The more commoditised things become, the lower the price tends to be.



> Have new petrol cars ever reduced in price?


Allowing for inflation, yes I think they have.

Base level Mondeo in 1993 was £14,600. That would be about £30,000 today allowing for inflation, while the current base level model is actually £21,315



> At present, used EVs are fetching strong money.
> 
> Their prices might soften a little as more come on the market.


Indeed, I would expect so.


----------



## CXRAndy (22 Dec 2021)

Has any Tesla owner received the Christmas Holiday update 2021.44.25

With light show 🎄


----------



## cougie uk (22 Dec 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> This is often asserted, but I doubt it's realistic.
> 
> Greater demand usually means higher prices.
> 
> ...


Ah yes. 

This famously happened with VHS, stereos, TVs, computers, laptops, smartphones etc.

If you didn't get them in the first few months then all the prices went through the roof...


----------



## icowden (22 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Has any Tesla owner received the Christmas Holiday update 2021.44.25
> With light show 🎄



When you get it, we will expect a video...


----------



## CXRAndy (22 Dec 2021)

Both ends of the emission spectrum Our leaf and


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (22 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I was going to go out and fill up the car on this chilly morning
> 
> Then I remembered, Id done it when I parked in the drive


Pity you forgot to enable the pre-heat


----------



## Fab Foodie (22 Dec 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Both ends of the emission spectrum Our leaf and
> 
> View attachment 623199


LOOK LOOK - Dr Who has landed outside that house!


----------



## CXRAndy (22 Dec 2021)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Pity you forgot to enable the pre-heat


Didn't need it, weren't going anywhere till afternoon. Used 5p/kW overnight electric **


----------



## CXRAndy (25 Dec 2021)

We got the V11 user interface on the Model 3. It comes with the Christmas party entertainment, a light show with music from the sound system. 

Not quite as good as the Model X with the falcon doors opening/closing, nevertheless a nice show off piece


----------



## farfromtheland (25 Dec 2021)




----------



## oldwheels (26 Dec 2021)

Baldy said:


> Hydro is bigger in Scotland than England, we have the right terrain. In fact all the major rivers up here are tamed. Down south is basically "Flatonia" you need water and height to make hydro work.
> As for tidal, there was a company in Fife making tidal water generators but they went bust through lack of investment.


There was a floating tidal generator moored at Connel near Oban for a while to harness the Falls of Lora. Seems to have worked ok as it was only there for testing and was towed away to get transported to Indonesia. The large generator propellors could be raised up out of the water for maintenance.


----------



## Slick (26 Dec 2021)

oldwheels said:


> There was a floating tidal generator moored at Connel near Oban for a while to harness the Falls of Lora. Seems to have worked ok as it was only there for testing and was towed away to get transported to Indonesia. The large generator propellors could be raised up out of the water for maintenance.


Similar thing at the opposite end of Argyll between the Mull of Kintyre and Isle of Sanda. Well known stretch of water called the barrels. Worked well in testing but never really heard much more about it.


----------



## oldwheels (26 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Similar thing at the opposite end of Argyll between the Mull of Kintyre and Isle of Sanda. Well known stretch of water called the barrels. Worked well in testing but never really heard much more about it.


May well have been like the one at Connel and was destined for overseas.
Since the Westminster lot are not interested in them they offer no support and charge extortionate transmission charges on all Scottish renewables. 
Scotland is apparently exporting a lot of electricity from wind and wave to England.


----------



## TheCheapBikeMan (26 Dec 2021)

gavroche said:


> With the cost of petrol/diesel going up by the day and now teaching £1.50 a litre, I wonder if it is a conspiracy by the automotive industry and the government to force us to buy electric cars?
> Mrs G wants to go to Bideford soon to visit our daughter and it is going to cost me £100 just on petrol !!  This is mad. Many families are going to be price out of motoring as electric cars are far too expensive for most of us.
> A simple Clio is around £28000 !!
> I despair for the future.


Might be worth looking into setting up your own business / becoming a freelancer - then the majority of car costs - petrol or electric, could be registered as expenses, and would be taxed less than wages.


----------



## mistyoptic (27 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Similar thing at the opposite end of Argyll between the Mull of Kintyre and Isle of Sanda. Well known stretch of water called the barrels. Worked well in testing but never really heard much more about it.


Orbital Marine have a rig up in that part of the world. More information on their website here
https://orbitalmarine.com/


----------



## rogerzilla (27 Dec 2021)

People will be forced to drive electric cars when petrol stations become so sparse that there is a 50 mile round trip to the nearest one, unless you live in a large town or near a MSA. This will happen very quickly, as petrol retailing is not very profitable anyway and a small drop in volumes means overheads will no longer be covered.

There may well be fewer cars on the road. That isn't a bad thing.


----------



## CXRAndy (27 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> People will be forced to drive electric cars when petrol stations become so sparse that there is a 50 mile round trip to the nearest one, unless you live in a large town or near a MSA. This will happen very quickly, as petrol retailing is not very profitable anyway and a small drop in volumes means overheads will no longer be covered.
> 
> There may well be fewer cars on the road. That isn't a bad thing.


My daughter tried out Shell's first totally EV station. They converted an existing petrol station. This is in Fulham. Shell did a discrete launch to gauge demand. Half the 12 stalls were being used when my daughter used it in 2nd day after opening. Quite a few ICE drove in, parked up then realised. 

A few van drivers dumped their vehicles and rushed to get a coffe from Costa.

There will be enforcement fines for blocking bays


----------



## MrGrumpy (28 Dec 2021)

icowden said:


> When you get it, we will expect a video...


Ahh so that’s what my BIL sent on WhatsApp ?! Anything else that was actually useful or just a stupid light show ?


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (28 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Ahh so that’s what my BIL sent on WhatsApp ?! Anything else that was actually useful or just a stupid light show ?


A mate posted a video of his Model 3 with lights flashing all over the place. I thought it had developed a fault. 

Made more sense with the audio on....


----------



## Pale Rider (29 Dec 2021)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTGDZdl6_Ts


----------



## MrGrumpy (29 Dec 2021)

Yes my BIL showed me it yesterday. It does look like it gone and done a flakey with the electrics ?! Each to their own mind.


----------



## MrGrumpy (29 Dec 2021)

Back on topic however , read a reply to a thread on electric charging soon to be going in at the shops in my town. It was from a blind gentleman, whom then told us about a couple of accidents involving guide dogs and electric cars recently in the area. It would seem out lovely guide dogs training g has not taken in to account the reduced noise for leccy cars !


----------



## CXRAndy (30 Dec 2021)

Electric cars are no quieter than ICE at 30mph. If guide dog association hasn't made a recall, then its probably best they did to retrain their dogs.


----------



## cougie uk (30 Dec 2021)

There was an awful incident where a woman reversed her range rover over an OAP as she came out of her drive. 
Clearly these octogenarians are speedy buggers - or else she'd surely have gone down for killing him. 

Cars kill no matter what the power source. Rolls Royces aare famously quiet - I've never heard of any guide dog problems and I sponsor a dog each year.


----------



## MrGrumpy (31 Dec 2021)

Well a quick google and there is certainly an issue around quiet vehicles and blind/partial sighted individuals with guide dogs .

https://www.itv.com/news/central/20...-walking-into-path-of-silent-electric-vehicle

Just an Example but if you google you can find more examples .


----------



## cougie uk (31 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well a quick google and there is certainly an issue around quiet vehicles and blind/partial sighted individuals with guide dogs .
> 
> https://www.itv.com/news/central/20...-walking-into-path-of-silent-electric-vehicle
> 
> Just an Example but if you google you can find more examples .



You've missed the bit where the UK government did research into this and didn't find any increase in risk from EV or hybrid vehicles compared to normal cars.

If there was a risk then I'm sure they would have acted.

As it is my EV will brake if it detects someone.
Will a five year old Corsa ?


----------



## figbat (31 Dec 2021)

I have to say I have not noticed any different behaviour from pedestrians or any other road user in my EV. As stated above, at higher speeds the tyre and aerodynamic noise dominates most cars and at lower speed my car makes an artificial noise (albeit not very loud).


----------



## cyberknight (31 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You've missed the bit where the UK government did research into this and didn't find any increase in risk from EV or hybrid vehicles compared to normal cars.
> 
> If there was a risk then I'm sure they would have acted.
> 
> ...


after a boy racer has stuck a boombox in it im sure the next town will hear it electric or not


----------



## MrGrumpy (31 Dec 2021)

cyberknight said:


> after a boy racer has stuck a boombox in it im sure the next town will hear it electric or not


Not many boy racers running about in EVs  no self respecting boy racer would dare


----------



## MrGrumpy (31 Dec 2021)

figbat said:


> I have to say I have not noticed any different behaviour from pedestrians or any other road user in my EV. As stated above, at higher speeds the tyre and aerodynamic noise dominates most cars and at lower speed my car makes an artificial noise (albeit not very loud).


It was really about blind/partial sighted folks to be honest . A serious point I was trying to make.


----------



## MrGrumpy (31 Dec 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You've missed the bit where the UK government did research into this and didn't find any increase in risk from EV or hybrid vehicles compared to normal cars.
> 
> If there was a risk then I'm sure they would have acted.
> 
> ...


And you missed this bit 


_*As of July 2019, all new electric vehicles must have a noise-emitting device which sounds like a traditional engine when travelling below 12mph. This was introduced by the EU to address concerns that pedestrians’ lives were being put at risk due to electric cars and vans being too quiet.*_

So there was an issue otherwise they would not have bothered . However what about all the quiet EVs made before 2019 !?


----------



## Svendo (31 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not many boy racers running about in EVs  no self respecting boy racer would dare


There is this one though!


----------



## figbat (31 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> And you missed this bit
> 
> 
> _*As of July 2019, all new electric vehicles must have a noise-emitting device which sounds like a traditional engine when travelling below 12mph. This was introduced by the EU to address concerns that pedestrians’ lives were being put at risk due to electric cars and vans being too quiet.*_
> ...


Mine makes a noise, but not “like a traditional engine”, more like a futuristic movie sound effect of an electric vehicle.


----------



## FishFright (31 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not many boy racers running about in EVs  no self respecting boy racer would dare



There are loads on the drag strips in the US , brilliant on the 1/8th mile.


----------



## rogerzilla (31 Dec 2021)

Most EVs seem to have a reversing beep which the neighbours must love, if you have early starts or late finishes.


----------



## cougie uk (31 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Most EVs seem to have a reversing beep which the neighbours must love, if you have early starts or late finishes.



What would be worse - a rattly diesel engine starting up or a beep ? 
My EV doesn't have a beep but does have a camera and sensors and I look where I'm going.


----------



## CXRAndy (31 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Most EVs seem to have a reversing beep which the neighbours must love, if you have early starts or late finishes.


That'll be the Amazon Rivian delivery van 


Tonight, my Tesla when on auto cruise in our village detected a group of revellers crossing the road in the dark. I saw them but the cars safety systems decided at 100 yds away at 30mph it warranted the car to slow down to 20mph from 30mph. 

Little people appeared on the cars display crossing.


----------



## cyberknight (31 Dec 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not many boy racers running about in EVs  no self respecting boy racer would dare


yebbut its will be mums hand me down in a few years, i wonder if they will put bits underneath to make sparks like a scalectrix ?


----------



## figbat (31 Dec 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Most EVs seem to have a reversing beep which the neighbours must love, if you have early starts or late finishes.


In which country? I’ve never heard an EV beep.


----------



## CXRAndy (1 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> However what about all the quiet EVs made before 2019 !?


My 2018 Nissan Leaf made a futuristic sound below 20mph. I think the Leafs have done this way before any concern. 

What ever happened to taking personal responsibility? You know, when we were taught as kids to look and listen twice before crossing roads. 

Every other f****r these days just needs to blame somebody/something else for their own ineptitude


----------



## Illaveago (1 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not many boy racers running about in EVs  no self respecting boy racer would dare


The batteries wouldn't last long .


----------



## gbb (1 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> My 2018 Nissan Leaf made a futuristic sound below 20mph. I think the Leafs have done this way before any concern.
> 
> What ever happened to taking personal responsibility? You know, when we were taught as kids to look and listen twice before crossing roads.
> 
> Every other f****r these days just needs to blame somebody/something else for their own ineptitude


While i generally agree (taking responsibility) i have once or twice had occasions in supermarket carparks where a silent car has moved off near me and quite surprised me. Its a very sensible thing to have them alert people as they move off tbf., kids and all that.


----------



## DRM (1 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> The batteries wouldn't last long .


They wouldn't but, kids are much more computer savvy than us and with each generation, they'll work out how to get into the cars locked parameters and up the speed and acceleration off the scale, electronic tuning without getting dirty is what they'll be up to


----------



## Illaveago (1 Jan 2022)

Nobody seems to have addressed the revenues that the government is going to lose out on as more electric vehicles become more common . It is fine at the moment running tax free and cheap electric bit as revenues drop they will have to be replaced by something . Will domestic use be taxed more as we are at the moment for the change to renewable energy ? Filling stations may be converted into charging stations but they will want to charge people for the time they are using the charging points . Filling a fuel tank takes less time than charging so more customers could have used that space in the same time .
Diesel fuel will still have to be made as not all of the rail network has been electrified, the majority of busses still run on it and many are old vehicles passed down from other areas . There have also been an increase of small generating plants built which run on diesel . They may say that coal fired power stations are declining but they haven't mentioned the increase in diesel powered ones .
There is also the question of training mechanics to work on the electric vehicles ? It seems as though this hasn't been properly addressed yet, there seems to some private companies involved in the training but it seems to be very limited .


----------



## Illaveago (1 Jan 2022)

DRM said:


> They wouldn't but, kids are much more computer savvy than us and with each generation, they'll work out how to get into the cars locked parameters and up the speed and acceleration off the scale, electronic tuning without getting dirty is what they'll be up to


I was thinking more about their sound systems pumping out watts of sound .


----------



## DRM (1 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was thinking more about their sound systems pumping out watts of sound .


They'll suss that out too, there's always been a market for aftermarket car bits of all types


----------



## DRM (1 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Nobody seems to have addressed the revenues that the government is going to lose out on as more electric vehicles become more common . It is fine at the moment running tax free and cheap electric bit as revenues drop they will have to be replaced by something . Will domestic use be taxed more as we are at the moment for the change to renewable energy ? Filling stations may be converted into charging stations but they will want to charge people for the time they are using the charging points . Filling a fuel tank takes less time than charging so more customers could have used that space in the same time .
> Diesel fuel will still have to be made as not all of the rail network has been electrified, the majority of busses still run on it and many are old vehicles passed down from other areas . There have also been an increase of small generating plants built which run on diesel . They may say that coal fired power stations are declining but they haven't mentioned the increase in diesel powered ones .
> There is also the question of training mechanics to work on the electric vehicles ? It seems as though this hasn't been properly addressed yet, there seems to some private companies involved in the training but it seems to be very limited .


I've pointed it out loads of times, about the loss of revenue from taxation, but as well as the other things, how will our armed forces fight wars, will they all stop at a pre arranged time to recharge their vehicle batteries?
As for training mechanics, it'll happen naturally, but hopefully wages will increase, and conditions will start to improve in the materials handling industry in order to keep staff, as there's already huge amounts of mechanics trained on electric & i/c vehicles ready to go, who are, quite frankly sick of being treated like cr*p.


----------



## Illaveago (1 Jan 2022)

DRM said:


> I've pointed it out loads of times, about the loss of revenue from taxation, but as well as the other things, how will our armed forces fight wars, will they all stop at a pre arranged time to recharge their vehicle batteries?
> As for training mechanics, it'll happen naturally, but hopefully wages will increase, and conditions will start to improve in the materials handling industry in order to keep staff, as there's already huge amounts of mechanics trained on electric & i/c vehicles ready to go, who are, quite frankly sick of being treated like cr*p.


I was in the motor industry for most of my working life . Bodywork . What I found over the years is that information gradually trickles down . The Manufacturers release things before informing people at the coal face . Basecoat and clear was on cars before it was acknowledged and so were high strength steels .


----------



## DRM (1 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was in the motor industry for most of my working life . Bodywork . What I found over the years is that information gradually trickles down . The Manufacturers release things before informing people at the coal face . Basecoat and clear was on cars before it was acknowledged and so were high strength steels .


Yes it does, new fork trucks are designed and sold, you might get training on it 2 years after it's released, as for other manufacturers kit, well the engineers all speak to each other and will help each other out.


----------



## Alex321 (1 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> My 2018 Nissan Leaf made a futuristic sound below 20mph. I think the Leafs have done this way before any concern.
> 
> What ever happened to taking personal responsibility? You know, when we were taught as kids to look and listen twice before crossing roads.
> 
> Every other f****r these days just needs to blame somebody/something else for their own ineptitude


And how many blind people can look? 

That is the whole point of this thing about them making noise.


----------



## CXRAndy (1 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> And how many blind people can look?
> 
> That is the whole point of this thing about them making noise.


But they generally have the best enhanced hearing. A known physical phenomenon when a person is devoid of one/more of the five sensory inputs. 

I've not seen many unaided blind people wandering the streets, bashing into those silent lamp-posts


----------



## cougie uk (1 Jan 2022)

DRM said:


> I've pointed it out loads of times, about the loss of revenue from taxation, but as well as the other things, how will our armed forces fight wars, will they all stop at a pre arranged time to recharge their vehicle batteries?
> As for training mechanics, it'll happen naturally, but hopefully wages will increase, and conditions will start to improve in the materials handling industry in order to keep staff, as there's already huge amounts of mechanics trained on electric & i/c vehicles ready to go, who are, quite frankly sick of being treated like cr*p.


Hang on not being able to go to war because we have electric cars seems to be a plus...


----------



## DRM (1 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Hang on not being able to go to war because we have electric cars seems to be a plus...


Not if we can’t defend the UK, as all our fighting vehicles are charging up!


----------



## Alex321 (1 Jan 2022)

DRM said:


> I've pointed it out loads of times, about the loss of revenue from taxation, but as well as the other things, how will our armed forces fight wars, will they all stop at a pre arranged time to recharge their vehicle batteries?


Why would they need to? 

Most armed forces vehicles run on diesel, and are likely to continue doing so for many years. 

They aren't going to have electric tanks in main army use until there have been sufficient improvements in the technology that their downtime will be little more than current diesel powered ones.


----------



## DRM (1 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Why would they need to?
> 
> Most armed forces vehicles run on diesel, and are likely to continue doing so for many years.
> 
> They aren't going to have electric tanks in main army use until there have been sufficient improvements in the technology that their downtime will be little more than current diesel powered ones.


That’s my point, they all use diesel, and are set up with with fuel bowsers, Jerry cans etc, they will not go electric, ever imho


----------



## Baldy (1 Jan 2022)

Tanks are a thing of the past, they'll be drones from now on. They refuel mid-air and the operators just change shift so they can stay up indefinitely.


----------



## cougie uk (1 Jan 2022)

DRM said:


> Not if we can’t defend the UK, as all our fighting vehicles are charging up!


I'm pretty sure our drones and the largest subs don't run on diesel. 

Good job we don't buy our gas from Russia eh ? They'd have us over a barrel literally. 
Oh.


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> My 2018 Nissan Leaf made a futuristic sound below 20mph. I think the Leafs have done this way before any concern.
> 
> What ever happened to taking personal responsibility? You know, when we were taught as kids to look and listen twice before crossing roads.
> 
> Every other f****r these days just needs to blame somebody/something else for their own ineptitude





CXRAndy said:


> My 2018 Nissan Leaf made a futuristic sound below 20mph. I think the Leafs have done this way before any concern.
> 
> What ever happened to taking personal responsibility? You know, when we were taught as kids to look and listen twice before crossing roads.
> 
> Every other f****r these days just needs to blame somebody/something else for their own ineptitude


I was talking about guide dogs , you know the ones the blind people use ???


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

Dogs have amazing hearing-far superior to any human. They tend to come with working eyes too, several years of training


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Dogs have amazing hearing-far superior to any human. They tend to come with working eyes too, several years of training


I’m well aware of that however they are trained to certain sounds etc . It was obviously a problem hence the change from 2019 as quoted above ?!


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## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

No, its not a problem

What it is, is a contrived problem by anti change lobbyists. 


If you dig a bit deeper, you may find some oil or ICE manufacturer is a sponsor of this fictitious news


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> No, its not a problem
> 
> What it is, is a contrived problem by anti change lobbyists.
> 
> ...


Oh ffs  . I’m outa here


----------



## simongt (2 Jan 2022)

Recent 'report' by whoever is now saying that there's currently not enough of the metals around to make all the batteries that the world's electric cars will need.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Recent 'report' by whoever is now saying that there's currently not enough of the metals around to make all the batteries that the world's electric cars will need.


Really !!?? Never surely not ….


----------



## figbat (2 Jan 2022)

We’ve been running out of oil for as long as I can remember. Still plenty left though.


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## simongt (2 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> We’ve been running out of oil for as long as I can remember. Still plenty left though.


Like the North Sea gas that was going to keep the UK going for however long and now we're buying gas from Russia - !


----------



## newfhouse (2 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Recent 'report' by whoever is now saying that there's currently not enough of the metals around to make all the batteries that the world's electric cars will need.


Build fewer cars.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Like the North Sea gas that was going to keep the UK going for however long and now we're buying gas from Russia - !


Plenty gas I believe the problem was storing it , well storage needed upgraded so rather than spend the money they just didn’t bother  

Edit plenty oil as well just a bit expensive to get out of the seabed !


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## Slick (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Plenty gas I believe the problem was storing it , well storage needed upgraded so rather than spend the money they just didn’t bother
> 
> Edit plenty oil as well just a bit expensive to get out of the seabed !


Probably still not enough but Ineos at Grangemouth spent rather a lot of cash upgrading their facilities to store more Gas. Agree about the oil, I think it is now widely accepted that we will run out of the need for oil long before we actually run out if oil.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Slick said:


> Probably still not enough but Ineos at Grangemouth spent rather a lot of cash upgrading their facilities to store more Gas. Agree about the oil, I think it is now widely accepted that we will run out of the need for oil long before we actually run out if oil.


Shale gas was it not at Grangemouth ?


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## Slick (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Shale gas was it not at Grangemouth ?


Ah, it was.


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## Slick (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Shale gas was it not at Grangemouth ?


Kinnell for the gas via Cruden Bay and St Fergus, obviously.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Slick said:


> Kinnell for the gas via Cruden Bay and St Fergus, obviously.


Just recall that Jim Ratcliffe was threatening to shut the hole thing down if he didn’t get to build his storage facilities and process the shale gas!? SNP gov not happy but what choice would they have !


----------



## Slick (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just recall that Jim Ratcliffe was threatening to shut the hole thing down if he didn’t get to build his storage facilities and process the shale gas!? SNP gov not happy but what choice would they have !


None really but Jim Ratcliffe is definitely a marmite type of guy.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (4 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> What ever happened to taking personal responsibility? You know, when we were taught as kids to look and listen twice before crossing roads.
> 
> Every other f****r these days just needs to blame somebody/something else for their own ineptitude


Also in addition to @MrGrumpy's comment, not every visually impaired person has a guide dog, nor enhanced hearing. Almost all drivers do have the ability to look (even though as cyclists we know they often don't), and could help everyone by reversing into parking spaces so they can drive out with increased visibility


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## TheDoctor (4 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Recent 'report' by whoever is now saying that there's currently not enough of the metals around to make all the batteries that the world's electric cars will need.


I assume they're talking about cobalt? That's the usual one.
There's about a billion cars in use worldwide - source
Assuming they're all replaced by EVs, we need a billion battery packs, each of which contains about 18kg of cobalt - source
That's 18 million tonnes of cobalt. Given that current reserves of cobalt are about half that - source - there would seem to be a problem.
However...
All this assumes that :
No car batteries will be recycled, ever. Which isn't the case.
Batteries will continue to need this much cobalt. Which isn't the case.
We won't ever find new supplies of cobalt. Which is* absolutely* not the case.
Without getting technical, for something to count as a *reserve*, someone's evaluated pretty precisely how much material is there, in what quality, and has worked out that it can be extracted, processed and sold, using current technology and pricing, and proven that to various legal and financial standards. If you can't do every step of that, it's a *resource* and doesn't count in the same way. Do your analysis, prove your working and resources become reserves. It's a costly and long winded process, and you don't do it till you need to. That's why we've always had 20 years reserves of oil as long as I can remember, and we probably always will.
The important point is that people tend to use resource and reserve as if they mean the same thing, and the same as 'total amount of stuff there is' - which is again, absolutely not the case
The Earths lithosphere - the layer of rock we live on, the crust - is about 0.003% cobalt, and it weighs about 23 000 *10^15 tonnes.
Do the sums, and there's over a billion times more cobalt than we've actually found. We're not going to run out.


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## icowden (5 Jan 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> I assume they're talking about cobalt? That's the usual one.
> There's about a billion cars in use worldwide - source
> Assuming they're all replaced by EVs, we need a billion battery packs, each of which contains about 18kg of cobalt - source
> That's 18 million tonnes of cobalt. Given that current reserves of cobalt are about half that - source - there would seem to be a problem.
> ...



You missed out that we don't need to replace a billion cars. People will reduce car ownership once Level 5 automation is achieved. That said, there are a couple of houses in this street where they seem to have more cars than people. I have more driveway than car...


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## fossyant (5 Jan 2022)

Or the fact that cobalt mining 'currently', excusing the ethical/humanitarian issues in DRC, is very toxic.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/20/world/china-congo-cobalt.html

Not so green !

People will reduce car ownership once Level 5 automation is achieved - I'm not so sure folk will reduce car ownership - they are a consumer item.


----------



## fossyant (5 Jan 2022)

Little interesting fact:-

My BIL works in car insurance, He said there is a fair number of new 'electric car drivers' who crash their cars within the first few days as they aren't used to the power delivery - it's very high compared to ICE. He also said they don't like to insure Teslas, as they 'the cars' attract a particular 'type' of driver, and it's not one type they like to do business with (risk). Not the car's fault though !


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## MrGrumpy (5 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> You missed out that we don't need to replace a billion cars. People will reduce car ownership once Level 5 automation is achieved. That said, there are a couple of houses in this street where they seem to have more cars than people. I have more driveway than car...


I doubt very much level 5 automation is going to reduce the amount of vehicles on the road !? Not round here not anywhere near me at all !


----------



## MrGrumpy (5 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Little interesting fact:-
> 
> My BIL works in car insurance, He said there is a fair number of new 'electric car drivers' who crash their cars within the first few days as they aren't used to the power delivery - it's very high compared to ICE. He also said they don't like to insure Teslas, as they 'the cars' attract a particular 'type' of driver, and it's not one type they like to do business with (risk). Not the car's fault though !


Haha a certain type of driver  I can imagine……


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## Alex321 (5 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> People will reduce car ownership once Level 5 automation is achieved.


Why?

What about level 5 automation will reduce the "need" for a car. It will doubtless reduce *slightly* among those who drive for the "thrill" of it, but those are a very small proportion of car users.


----------



## CXRAndy (5 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Why?
> 
> What about level 5 automation will reduce the "need" for a car. It will doubtless reduce *slightly* among those who drive for the "thrill" of it, but those are a very small proportion of car users.


Because we are all guilty of owning vehicles which spend 99% of the life parked up. Extremely wasteful.

In the future automated driverless vehicles will be called for transport via app.

There will be far less vehicles all pooled waiting to go from one trip onto the next. A bit like taxi's now except driverless.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Because we are all guilty of owning vehicles which spend 99% of the life parked up. Extremely wasteful.
> 
> In the future automated driverless vehicles will be called for transport via app.
> 
> There will be far less vehicles all pooled waiting to go from one trip onto the next. A bit like taxi's now except driverless



Don’t need any of that just a proper round the clock public transport service . Reliable and value for money. However out with the large towns cities it’s garbage ….


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## cougie uk (5 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Don’t need any of that just a proper round the clock public transport service . Reliable and value for money. However out with the large towns cities it’s garbage ….


London probably has the best public transport system in the world - yet Uber, Black cabs and taxis all prosper.


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## cyberknight (5 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Little interesting fact:-
> 
> My BIL works in car insurance, He said there is a fair number of new 'electric car drivers' who crash their cars within the first few days as they aren't used to the power delivery - it's very high compared to ICE. He also said they don't like to insure Teslas, as they 'the cars' attract a particular 'type' of driver, and it's not one type they like to do business with (risk). Not the car's fault though !


ex bmw drivers?


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## MrGrumpy (5 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> London probably has the best public transport system in the world - yet Uber, Black cabs and taxis all prosper.


Forgive me , we don’t all stay in London !!  .


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## Alex321 (5 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Because we are all guilty of owning vehicles which spend 99% of the life parked up. Extremely wasteful.
> 
> In the future automated driverless vehicles will be called for transport via app.
> 
> There will be far less vehicles all pooled waiting to go from one trip onto the next. A bit like taxi's now except driverless.


Right. So not because of level 5 automation, but because of a change in habits.

I'm not convinced those habits will change easily.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

cyberknight said:


> ex bmw drivers?



He didn't say, but they have a 'profile' of the types of people they 'prefer' to insure. Says a lot as it's all based on claims history. Tesla drivers seem to 'crash' rather a lot.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> London probably has the best public transport system in the world - yet Uber, Black cabs and taxis all prosper.



Yet the rest of the UK it's shoot.... Two trains an hour at peak times into Manchester City centre. Only 9 miles, but the cost is approaching £1500 a year, and the Northern Fail put on two carriages - I certainly would not pay that to stand up and be treated like cattle every morning - so car or pedal bike for me - most other folk it's car. Electric cars aren't the answer.


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## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Forgive me , we don’t all stay in London !!  .


Neither do I. That wasn't the point.


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## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

Good old petrol. They wouldn't take advantage of you eh ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59886270


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## icowden (6 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Right. So not because of level 5 automation, but because of a change in habits.
> 
> I'm not convinced those habits will change easily.



Maybe not, but if we get to the point where summoning a self driving car is really cheap, much cheaper than owning a car that does nothing but sit on your drive 23 hours a day, it starts to become very appealing. There might even be a point where we decide whether we want our cars to earn some money for us by letting them go out and be pooled...


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## MrGrumpy (6 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Maybe not, but if we get to the point where summoning a self driving car is really cheap, much cheaper than owning a car that does nothing but sit on your drive 23 hours a day, it starts to become very appealing. There might even be a point where we decide whether we want our cars to earn some money for us by letting them go out and be



Self driving car to my door ??!! Nope won’t happen not anytime soon . A frequent , decent value for money public transport , that runs 24/7 now that can be here now !!


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Maybe not, but if we get to the point where summoning a self driving car is really cheap, much cheaper than owning a car that does nothing but sit on your drive 23 hours a day, it starts to become very appealing. There might even be a point where we decide whether we want our cars to earn some money for us by letting them go out and be pooled...



That's not going to happen any time soon. Self driving cars on highways where there are other users. We need to improve public transport and active travel options.


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## icowden (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's not going to happen any time soon. Self driving cars on highways where there are other users. We need to improve public transport and active travel options.


Yeah. Probably decades away..

Oh wait...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology-news/driverless-cars-hit-public-roads-milton-keynes

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56906145


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Yeah. Probably decades away..
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology-news/driverless-cars-hit-public-roads-milton-keynes



The odd car maybe, but anything that's been said above - i.e. dial a robo-car, no chance.

Who will foot the bill when I get knocked off my bike by a robot car - it will happen - that alone will delay robo-cars by decades. Almost happened yesterday when a learner driver pulled out on me, neither he nor the driving instructor, with a set of brakes himself, saw me. Fortunately I was able to use the 'wrong side' of the road to avoid injury.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Yeah. Probably decades away..
> 
> Oh wait...
> 
> ...


That BBC article does not refer to driverless cars ! So yes I’ll wait …….. long time before I can summon a driverless car to my front door to take me to work or wherever !!!


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## icowden (6 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> That BBC article does not refer to driverless cars ! So yes I’ll wait …….. long time before I can summon a driverless car to my front door to take me to work or wherever !!!



From JustAuto:-



> What Musk means by “basic functionality” is unclear but it’s likely that the system will require a lengthy testing and refining period before it can be used in customers’ cars. As a result, GlobalData doesn’t expect the deployment of level 5 fully self-driving vehicles to deviate from its current timeline. Currently, forecasts show level 5 vehicles beginning to appear in very low volumes in 2024 with an equally slow ramp-up to around half-a-million level 5 vehicles produced in 2030. It is likely that these vehicles won’t be consumer-owned but, instead, will be part of large robotaxi fleets because they are more easily able to absorb the high purchase price of level 5 vehicles.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

2030 for robo cabs - doubt it.


----------



## vickster (6 Jan 2022)

Didn't some Tesla taxis just get banned in Paris after an accident? Can't recall the details...here...not shown that it was in self-drive mode but not good nonetheless in a crowded city which is where we need to get people out of cars first
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59647069
Autopiliot crashes also being investigated in US


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Didn't some Tesla taxis just get banned in Paris after an accident? Can't recall the details...here...not shown that it was in self-drive mode but not good nonetheless in a crowded city which is where we need to get people out of cars first
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59647069



Sounds like driver error, rather than the car.


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Jan 2022)

Anytime folk keep going in about driverless cars I’ve got Arnie in his Johnny Cab , Total Recall style  .


----------



## vickster (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Sounds like driver error, rather than the car.


Still doesn't bode well. The thought of an automated car on crowded roads sounds like a utopian nightmare to me


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Still doesn't bode well. The thought of an automated car on crowded roads sounds like a utopian nightmare to me



Quite, it just won't happen, not from a technical point of view, but a legal one.


----------



## Alex321 (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Still doesn't bode well. The thought of an automated car on crowded roads sounds like a utopian nightmare to me


It is going to happen though. Pretty well inevitable now.

And I think that timeline above is also probably fairly realistic, though remember, that half a million vehicles is worldwide - and most will initially probably be in the USA, particularly the robo-taxis.


----------



## Alex321 (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Quite, it just won't happen, not from a technical point of view, but a legal one.


I don't think there is any realistic chance of it NOT happening.


----------



## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is going to happen though. Pretty well inevitable now.
> 
> And I think that timeline above is also probably fairly realistic, though remember, that half a million vehicles is worldwide - and most will initially probably be in the USA, particularly the robo-taxis.



It's not though. Technology aside, legally it won't, certainly not in the UK. 

Who is responsible for injuring another road user ? Computers can't be programmed to deal with every eventuality.


----------



## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I don't think there is any realistic chance of it NOT happening.



You or I, and I doubt my children will see robo-cars replacing everything. Sorry, humans are selfish, we'll be tearing round in our 2000HP equivalent Teslas rather than get a robo car, or, god forbid, walk.  Don't even mention pedaling a bike.


----------



## vickster (6 Jan 2022)

The cab firms? They'd need enormous levels of 3rd party indemnity (which probably only Elon Musk could afford )


----------



## Alex321 (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> You or I, and I doubt my children will see robo-cars replacing everything. Sorry, humans are selfish, we'll be tearing round in our 2000HP equivalent Teslas rather than get a robo car, or, god forbid, walk.  Don't even mention pedaling a bike.


It will certainly take time - and quite a lot of it.

And yes, I very much doubt it will be entirely robo-cars in our lifetimes (depending on how old you are  ).

But legal in many places within the next few years, I think WILL happen. Significant numbers, particularly in things like taxis, within the next 10 years or so, not certain, but I don't think unrealistic.

I think by the time the 22nd century rolls around, it is not unrealistic to be mainly, and even possibly entirely robo-cars. It wouldn't surprise me to see laws brought in *requiring* cars to be automated in large urban areas. Whether that will happen in my lifetime is more doubtful.


----------



## Alex321 (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> The cab firms? They'd need enormous levels of 3rd party indemnity (which probably only Elon Musk could afford )


Why would they need any higher levels than they do now?

By the time these things are legally allowed in general use, they will have undergone very vigorous testing to ensure hey are at least as safe as human drivers, and probably more so.

While it is true that you really can't develop computer code to cover every possible eventuality, you *can* build in failsafes, and they will not be susceptible to human failings such as tiredness or distraction.


----------



## vickster (6 Jan 2022)

Hopefully I'll be long dead before such things hit the roads!


----------



## Svendo (6 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anytime folk keep going in about driverless cars I’ve got Arnie in his Johnny Cab , Total Recall style  .


It’s Bruce Willis’s taxi ride in Fifth Element with Milla Jovovich dropping in for me.


----------



## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

I don't wan't robo-cabs, I'm all for hover cars !


----------



## cyberknight (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> He didn't say, but they have a 'profile' of the types of people they 'prefer' to insure. Says a lot as it's all based on claims history. Tesla drivers seem to 'crash' rather a lot.


i was jesting given the sterotype of drivers of certain brands of cars being known for being numpties


----------



## figbat (6 Jan 2022)

It’s happening now. This is on my doorstep and whilst it is on a controlled campus, the roads are used by regular cars, buses, bicycles etc.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-59473598


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## cyberknight (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I don't wan't robo-cabs, I'm all for hover cars !



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQMGq8gk6QM


----------



## cyberknight (6 Jan 2022)

3 .19 in 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sUqJ9bId70


----------



## icowden (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Didn't some Tesla taxis just get banned in Paris after an accident? Can't recall the details...here...not shown that it was in self-drive mode but not good nonetheless in a crowded city which is where we need to get people out of cars first
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59647069
> Autopiliot crashes also being investigated in US



Classic crap news used to scare people about Tesla. 

Summary: Man crashes car whilst **not* *using advanced safety features.


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Jan 2022)

Surely if it’s safety features , then they are turned on by default and cannot be overridden?


----------



## icowden (6 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Surely if it’s safety features , then they are turned on by default and cannot be overridden?


Unfortunately due to a small number of idiots and a large number of paranoid conspiracy theorists, Full Self Drive always has to be engaged manually for the moment. Robots are dangerous you see, whereas Humans aren't.


----------



## vickster (6 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Classic crap news used to scare people about Tesla.
> 
> Summary: Man crashes car whilst **not* *using advanced safety features.


Clearly the company felt it necessary to suspend the fleet after someone died and a number of further injuries while they actually investigate what happened.

Tesla themselves also seem to be prepared to recall cars with potential faults (before accidents happen?)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59818800
Not sure why anyone really needs a rear camera in a car (not like a Tesla is a huge arctic with massive blind spots )
And why does anyone need to play games on a car's touchscreen?


----------



## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Clearly the company felt it necessary to suspend the fleet after someone died and a number of further injuries while they actually investigate what happened.
> 
> Tesla themselves also seem to be prepared to recall cars with potential faults (before accidents happen?)
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59818800
> ...


I love the cameras in my car - I get a 360 view which is great for parking in tight spots. I still have all of the mirrors but it's a nice extra. 

No problem with offering games on a cars screen so long as you can only use it when parked. Madness otherwise.


----------



## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Surely if it’s safety features , then they are turned on by default and cannot be overridden?


You mean like seat belt warnings, air bags, fog lights, and god knows what else that people still manage to get around ?


----------



## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I don't wan't robo-cabs, I'm all for hover cars !


Imagine that - we can be close passed from the sides and above !


----------



## CXRAndy (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's not going to happen any time soon. Self driving cars on highways where there are other users. We need to improve public transport and active travel options.


UK is granting license to several manufacturers to trial driverless vehicles, I believe this year. Public transport will go driverless too in the future


----------



## CXRAndy (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Still doesn't bode well. The thought of an automated car on crowded roads sounds like a utopian nightmare to me


There was an alleged spate of crashes involving Tesla's allegedly speeding up all on their own.

The NHTSA found no evidence other than driver error. 

The conspiracy began when a trader on the stock market was trying to short sell Tesla stock. He created a complaints page. All crashes, Tesla collects all telemetry from the cars systems. The cars were found to be blameless.


----------



## vickster (6 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I love the cameras in my car - I get a 360 view which is great for parking in tight spots. I still have all of the mirrors but it's a nice extra.
> 
> No problem with offering games on a cars screen so long as you can only use it when parked. Madness otherwise.


How did you manage to park before cameras assuming you’ve been driving more than a few years?


----------



## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> How did you manage to park before cameras assuming you’ve been driving more than a few years?


Same way as I changed gear on the downtube before STI came along. It's just easier - I can see exactly what is behind me and low down and easily see the white lines that disappear out of the bottom of the wing mirrors so I don't need to angle them down and then back up again when I drive off. How close am I to that hedge or post - you can't see without getting out - but sensors and cameras help.


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> UK is granting license to several manufacturers to trial driverless vehicles, I believe this year. Public transport will go driverless too in the future


Futures bright , less jobs .


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

That new Dacia Spring looks interesting ! Pretty cheap - assuming it does make it here.


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## Alex321 (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> How did you manage to park before cameras assuming you’ve been driving more than a few years?


Being able to manage without something doesn't mean that isn't nice to have.

I have always driven estate cars as my main vehicle, and (surprisingly) it can be quite tricky to judge just where the rear is. I have often ended up thinking I was inches away from a wall or other vehicle when it was actually a foot or more. I've never had rear cameras, but the introduction of parking sensors has made a big difference to ease of parking.

Yes, I can park without them, but I strongly prefer to have them.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Same way as I changed gear on the downtube before STI came along. It's just easier - I can see exactly what is behind me and low down and easily see the white lines that disappear out of the bottom of the wing mirrors so I don't need to angle them down and then back up again when I drive off. How close am I to that hedge or post - you can't see without getting out - but sensors and cameras help.



So two decades ago - I have a reversing camera (factory fit) on my car and it's 20 years old. The issue is I can't see about 4-5 foot of my car at the back, and even more at the front. MrsF's has 360 degree cameras. That said she has reversed both cars into something before


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## cougie uk (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> So two decades ago - I have a reversing camera (factory fit) on my car and it's 20 years old. The issue is I can't see about 4-5 foot of my car at the back, and even more at the front. MrsF's has 360 degree cameras. That said she has reversed both cars into something before


Is that a problem with the user then ? 

Bring on the self driving cars !


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Is that a problem with the user then ?
> 
> Bring on the self driving cars !



I'll let you tell her


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## farfromtheland (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I don't wan't robo-cabs, I'm all for hover cars !


We'd need them here - narrow road, parking both sides, on 2 bus routes. Fairly frequent jams back 50-100 yards when buses can't get past other vehicles. Drivers then have to use the pavement to clear the way.

As someone who can't use a car pool due to a disability and who carries heavy kit for work I will be very hard pushed if I can't have a car sometimes. What matter if it sits unused for weeks? That is not an environmental problem.

Commuting culture and lack of rural public transport are the problems. Building for commuting has to stop.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> How did you manage to park before cameras assuming you’ve been driving more than a few years?


Older cars had far better visibility, "city" cars were far smaller. You used to be able to see where the front of the bonnet on most cars ended, now, they are curved; blame aerodynamic efficiency and (ironically) collision protection, and invisible from the driver's seat. Hence one reason for so many scrapes in car parks as people drive in head first. Windscreen pillars are thicker for strength and more raked for aerodynamics, both factors reducing visibility. Similarly, the rear of cars are shaped for aerodynamic efficiency and styling has thicker pillars and higher window lines.

Old proper Minis, you could practically touch each corner. Proper Land Rovers had straight sides and ends so you could position them within inches without any driver aids.


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## Jenkins (6 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> How did you manage to park before cameras assuming you’ve been driving more than a few years?


Rear window visibility is a problem in may modern cars which is where the cameras help. We've got a fleet of Hyundai Ioniq plug-in hybrids at work and you might as well throw out the interior rear view mirror for all you can see out the back.


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## Richard A Thackeray (7 Jan 2022)

I think l’ve mentioned before in this thread that someone l know at work has just got an electric VW
I saw it again yesterday, for the first time since he got it

I believe it’s a ‘NHS Staff Lease Car’?

He’s not in the slightest bit precocious, but he did tell me that the most difficult decision on Wednesday, when it was frosty around here, was how long in advance should he set the heating to
It can be set remotely, apparently, so he could get into a warm car!

This is a lad, who had 400BHP Imprezas, a few years ago (& 1000cc superbikes(


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## Illaveago (7 Jan 2022)

Fifth Gear Recharged was interesting last night . They tried out two electric vans . A VW and a Mercedes . The range of the VW on a full charge was 85 miles I think . When they filled the vans with washing machines the range was halved . I had a job as a parts delivery driver years ago and I was doing over 200 miles a day and that was without having to spend extra time refueling .


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## figbat (7 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> ...he did tell me that the most difficult decision on Wednesday, when it was frosty around here, was how long in advance should he set the heating to
> It can be set remotely, apparently, so he could get into a warm car!


My MINI does this as, I assume a lot of EVs do. I simply tell it what time I plan to leave in the morning and it decides when to start preconditioning the car - this is not only the cabin (where it switches on the heater, fan, heated rear window, heated mirrors and heated seats) but also the battery, which operates best when warm so is preconditioned for departure. I assume that in the summer it will chill the car before departure too (I haven't had it long enough to test this).

That said, my wife's Volvo (an ICE) can be remote started for warming up too, although this comes at the expense of £1.5/litre petrol and emissions on my doorstep.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Jan 2022)

My LR has fuel burner, can be remotely controlled to defrost windscreen and provide a bit of heat in the car. I don’t bother as it’s hardly worth the effort. Heated windscreens and mirrors has it cleared in no time anyway! The only thing I’d never not have now is heated seats and front windscreen the rest is not important. Even the Merc we have can self park . Used it once and thought what a complete waste of money . Utter pointless unless your sh..t at parking. In which case stop driving


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## nickyboy (7 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Maybe not, but if we get to the point where summoning a self driving car is really cheap, much cheaper than owning a car that does nothing but sit on your drive 23 hours a day, it starts to become very appealing. There might even be a point where we decide whether we want our cars to earn some money for us by letting them go out and be pooled...


You're describing taxis today. You ring up or order one online, it arrives and takes you where you want to go and you pay for the service. Except taxis have been around the entire time the car ownership has exploded.

For sure, there are arguments such as self driving can be cheaper (no driver to pay) and may become more saturated than taxis. But we shouldn't underestimate the desire to have your own self driving vehicle, parked on the drive. That desire isn't going to go away, people don't always consider personal transport in a logical, rational, cost/benefit approach


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## Richard A Thackeray (7 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> My LR has fuel burner, can be remotely controlled to defrost windscreen and provide a bit of heat in the car. I don’t bother as it’s hardly worth the effort. Heated windscreens and mirrors has it cleared in no time anyway! The only thing I’d never not have now is heated seats and front windscreen the rest is not important. Even the Merc we have can self park . Used it once and thought what a complete waste of money . Utter pointless unless your sh..t at parking. In which case stop driving



I considered one of those for my 110CSW, when l had that (a Webasto?)


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## MrGrumpy (7 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I considered one of those for my 110CSW, when l had that (a Webasto?)


Yep a webasto , Think it’s standard on LR4


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## cougie uk (7 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Fifth Gear Recharged was interesting last night . They tried out two electric vans . A VW and a Mercedes . The range of the VW on a full charge was 85 miles I think . When they filled the vans with washing machines the range was halved . I had a job as a parts delivery driver years ago and I was doing over 200 miles a day and that was without having to spend extra time refueling .


All the Amazon delivery vans in my area are Mercedes electric ones. 
Amazon tend to know what they're doing.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> All the Amazon delivery vans in my area are Mercedes electric ones.
> Amazon tend to know what they're



Not spotted any in my area and their rather large hub is 6 miles up the road . DPD have one , a local delivery van other than that it’s white van man and they ain’t electric.


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## midlife (7 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I think l’ve mentioned before in this thread that someone l know at work has just got an electric VW
> I saw it again yesterday, for the first time since he got it
> 
> I believe it’s a ‘NHS Staff Lease Car’?
> ...



Our NHS Trust does both Tesla and VW ID3 electric vehicles on a salary sacrifice / lease type basis. I think the Tesla works out about £450 a month for a model 3. At my age I need my full salary as it's what my pension is based on lol


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## icowden (7 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Fifth Gear Recharged was interesting last night . They tried out two electric vans . A VW and a Mercedes . The range of the VW on a full charge was 85 miles I think . When they filled the vans with washing machines the range was halved . I had a job as a parts delivery driver years ago and I was doing over 200 miles a day and that was without having to spend extra time refueling .


Haven't seen it but I am guessing they loaded an e-sprinter with washing machines, even though those are usually delivered by Luton sized vehicles due to the mass and then pretended to be surprised by the loss of range?


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## CXRAndy (7 Jan 2022)

Some good news

Tesla topped all new car sales in the UK for December. 

Tesla is number 1 in Norway. When the model Y is readily available, there will be another surge in ownership. 

Talk of the £25k baby Tesla is coming


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## icowden (7 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> You're describing taxis today. You ring up or order one online, it arrives and takes you where you want to go and you pay for the service. Except taxis have been around the entire time the car ownership has exploded.
> 
> For sure, there are arguments such as self driving can be cheaper (no driver to pay) and may become more saturated than taxis. But we shouldn't underestimate the desire to have your own self driving vehicle, parked on the drive. That desire isn't going to go away, people don't always consider personal transport in a logical, rational, cost/benefit approach


I totally agree, but once you eliminate the driver you eliminate a lot of the cost of a taxi, thus it becomes more appealing and owning your own car becomes much more of a luxury decision than a necessity, thus driving down ownership.


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## icowden (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Tesla themselves also seem to be prepared to recall cars with potential faults (before accidents happen?)
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59818800
> Not sure why anyone really needs a rear camera in a car (not like a Tesla is a huge arctic with massive blind spots )
> And why does anyone need to play games on a car's touchscreen?


Yes, Tesla are very proactive (usually). Almost all cars have rear cameras. In the Tesla's case I believe the rear camera forms part of the self drive array - the car needs to be able to see what is coming up behind, as much as it does what's in front to guide steering, lane changing and braking. 

No-one *needs* to be able to play games on the touchscreen. Tesla isn't about providing a bog standard experience - it's about pushing the envelope so that a car journey becomes something different, and sustainable. The vision is for cars to drive themselves whilst passengers relax.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (7 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> He’s not in the slightest bit precocious, but he did tell me that the most difficult decision on Wednesday, when it was frosty around here, was how long in advance should he set the heating to
> It can be set remotely, apparently, so he could get into a warm car!
> 
> This is a lad, who had 400BHP Imprezas, a few years ago (& 1000cc superbikes(
> ...


I must say I quite like the iD3 in that colour, it looks smart. Most that I've seen have been grey/silver theme. I think that if we were looking at EVs now, the iD3 would be on the short list. There seems to be decent permutations of range/performance/costs.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (7 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Some good news
> 
> Talk of the £25k baby Tesla is coming


That surely is where they need to be heading with their market. Sub-£28k, with a range of 200+miles to reduce the range anxiety that many perceive to be an issue, small enough to drive and park in towns.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Some good news
> 
> Tesla topped all new car sales in the UK for December.
> 
> ...



Never been a huge fanboy of any car but geez 
you take the Tesla Flag sh…. ger medal 

Better grab these


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## MrGrumpy (7 Jan 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> That surely is where they need to be heading with their market. Sub-£28k, with a range of 200+miles to reduce the range anxiety that many perceive to be an issue, small enough to drive and park in towns.


£28k is a shed load of cash . Comes back once more to used car prices. What they going to look like in future, right now EVs are unaffordable for the many .


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## Illaveago (7 Jan 2022)

So we are going to have electric self drive vehicles which won't be employing anyone to drive them , not paying road tax , made in a factory which is mainly operated by robots and used by an online business which is hardly paying any tax ! 
So how is the economy going to run ?


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## MrGrumpy (7 Jan 2022)

It would seem that’s what some folk want !?


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## Alex321 (7 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> £28k is a shed load of cash . Comes back once more to used car prices. What they going to look like in future, right now EVs are unaffordable for the many .


£28K is a lot to most of us, but in terms of new car prices, it is what you would pay for many mid-range family cars.

Of course, most of us never buy a new car in our lives, the majority of them are bought initially as fleet cars. But for fleet buyers, or those who do buy (or lease) new cars, £28K is not a vastly expensive car.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Never been a huge fanboy of any car but geez
> you take the Tesla Flag sh…. ger medal
> 
> Better grab these
> ...


Until you've owned or had a long term usage, your not in a position to comment


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Never been a huge fanboy of any car but geez
> you take the Tesla Flag sh…. ger medal
> 
> Better grab these
> ...



Having driven and been in a few different makes, I think it's fair to say Tesla are very good at marketing.


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## All uphill (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Ul doesn't bode well. The thought of an automated car on crowded roads sounds like a utopian nightmare to me


We are all speculating, of course. None of us can be sure what will happen.

I'd rather entrust my safety to a well-programmed robot than the average uk human!


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## Tenkaykev (7 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> So we are going to have electric self drive vehicles which won't be employing anyone to drive them , not paying road tax , made in a factory which is mainly operated by robots and used by an online business which is hardly paying any tax !
> So how is the economy going to run ?


Nobody pays road tax, at least not since its abolition in 1937. There is Vehicle Excise Duty which varies depending on vehicle emissions. Plenty of vehicles available with little or no VED.


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## gzoom (7 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> So we are going to have electric self drive vehicles which won't be employing anyone to drive them , not paying road tax , made in a factory which is mainly operated by robots and used by an online business which is hardly paying any tax !
> So how is the economy going to run ?



Massively increased productivity, huge reductions in errors (usually human related), opens up true 24/7 logistics/usage of things like roads/trucks etc.

The potential for such technology to change the world is unimaginable, the difference between you and me versus the next Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, is they can see/realise the potential of change not just be scared by it.

It is still a BIG IF, but who ever can achieve true autonomy will literally have the world as their oyster.


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## Electric_Andy (7 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> You're describing taxis today. You ring up or order one online, it arrives and takes you where you want to go and you pay for the service. Except taxis have been around the entire time the car ownership has exploded.
> 
> For sure, there are arguments such as self driving can be cheaper (no driver to pay) and may become more saturated than taxis. But we shouldn't underestimate the desire to have your own self driving vehicle, parked on the drive. That desire isn't going to go away, people don't always consider personal transport in a logical, rational, cost/benefit approach


These are my thoughts as well. I'd like to think that a car sitting in my drive is not being wasted, as someone else said. I'm paying VED and Insurance yearly anyway. And if it's not in use then it's not polluting or costing me any money in fuel. As Taxis stand at the moment, I wouldn't want to rely on one for every time I wanted to use the car. And at £14 for a return trip into town, a self-drive Johnny Cab would have to be at least half that to make it attractive. Actually the bus would be £4.80 return and they are never full, so perhaps the option to go carless has been here the whole time but with few takers.


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## Illaveago (7 Jan 2022)

gzoom said:


> Massively increased productivity, huge reductions in errors (usually human related), opens up true 24/7 logistics/usage of things like roads/trucks etc.
> 
> The potential for such technology to change the world is unimaginable, the difference between you and me versus the next Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, is they can see/realise the potential of change not just be scared by it.
> 
> It is still a BIG IF, but who ever can achieve true autonomy will literally have the world as their oyster.


You have forgotten one crucial point !
For any business to survive you need customers ! If you pay workers they can spend money on things .
It was either the Greeks or the Romans that discovered that it was far better to employ people rather than keep slaves . They were more productive and lived longer , plus the money they earned helped to drive the economy .


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## figbat (7 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> These are my thoughts as well. I'd like to think that a car sitting in my drive is not being wasted, as someone else said. I'm paying VED and Insurance yearly anyway. And if it's not in use then it's not polluting or costing me any money in fuel. As Taxis stand at the moment, I wouldn't want to rely on one for every time I wanted to use the car. And at £14 for a return trip into town, a self-drive Johnny Cab would have to be at least half that to make it attractive. Actually the bus would be £4.80 return and they are never full, so perhaps the option to go carless has been here the whole time but with few takers.


This assumes a model of pay-per-use - it might be that a carpooling or subscription service becomes normalised so that you can hail a ride whenever you need it with no further cost.

Additionally, if you give up the need for a personal car then you don't need a house with a driveway, so may be able to live nearer to places you want to get to. You may also not need a garage. You also save yourself the cost of owning a vehicle, which funds a lot of taxi rides.

As stated above, for most domestic users a car spends most of the time being an ornament. In a commercial context you'd never have a machine with such low utilisation rates and it represents a big depreciating asset.


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## icowden (7 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> As Taxis stand at the moment, I wouldn't want to rely on one for every time I wanted to use the car. And at £14 for a return trip into town, a self-drive Johnny Cab would have to be at least half that to make it attractive. Actually the bus would be £4.80 return and they are never full, so perhaps the option to go carless has been here the whole time but with few takers.


And the problem with the bus is that I have to walk 15 mins to the bus stop, wait up to half an hour for the bus to complete a journey that could have taken 10 minutes in an Uber. In fact it would be quicker for me to do the 30 minute walk to town than get the bus (and better for me too!). But the way back - I now have shopping to get to the bus stop and a long walk with heavy bags...

Thus if I can call an auto-cab and get a ten minute lift to town each way for £2.50 the bus becomes redundant.


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## gzoom (7 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> It was either the Greeks or the Romans that discovered that it was far better to employ people rather than keep slaves . They were more productive and lived longer , plus the money they earned helped to drive the economy .



Yet both of those cultures viewed slavery as normal .

Am not sure how the link between autonomy and slavery can even exist? But time is the biggest commodity around, its actually worth far more than money. Jobs essentially swap time for money, the difference been you never get time back, ever, and money, well that is a purely human abstract.

Autonomy for personal travel has the potential to release so much time for everyone that is current trapped by essentially the logistics for getting people/things from A to B. When/if the technology arrives, who ever can work out how best to monazites that free time will become the next billionaire.

Tesla gets all the press on 'Full Self Driving' but Waymo (Google) has been at it for far longer and spent much much more $$$$$$$. One thing am sure everyone realizes with Google is they never do anything for 'free', Google already has so much personal data on everyone, imagine their 'worth' if they now controlled personal transportation!!

Am genuinely fascinated to see how all this develops.


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> And the problem with the bus is that I have to walk 15 mins to the bus stop, wait up to half an hour for the bus to complete a journey that could have taken 10 minutes in an Uber. In fact it would be quicker for me to do the 30 minute walk to town than get the bus (and better for me too!). But the way back - I now have shopping to get to the bus stop and a long walk with heavy bags...
> 
> *Thus if I can call an auto-cab and get a ten minute lift to town each way for £2.50 the bus becomes redundant.*


Not for long, once you spend hours in traffic if everyone did the same.


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## cougie uk (7 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> And the problem with the bus is that I have to walk 15 mins to the bus stop, wait up to half an hour for the bus to complete a journey that could have taken 10 minutes in an Uber. In fact it would be quicker for me to do the 30 minute walk to town than get the bus (and better for me too!). But the way back - I now have shopping to get to the bus stop and a long walk with heavy bags...
> 
> Thus if I can call an auto-cab and get a ten minute lift to town each way for £2.50 the bus becomes redundant.


Unless you had a bike....


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> This assumes a model of pay-per-use - it might be that a carpooling or subscription service becomes normalised so that you can hail a ride whenever you need it with no further cost.
> 
> Additionally, if you give up the need for a personal car then you don't need a house with a driveway, so may be able to live nearer to places you want to get to. You may also not need a garage. You also save yourself the cost of owning a vehicle, which funds a lot of taxi rides.
> 
> As stated above, for most domestic users a car spends most of the time being an ornament. In a commercial context you'd never have a machine with such low utilisation rates and it represents a big depreciating asset.



Will uber get my boat in and out of the lake?


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## cougie uk (7 Jan 2022)

Illaveago said:


> So we are going to have electric self drive vehicles which won't be employing anyone to drive them , not paying road tax , made in a factory which is mainly operated by robots and used by an online business which is hardly paying any tax !
> So how is the economy going to run ?


Quick ! Throw your clogs into the machines !


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## cougie uk (7 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Will uber get my boat in and out of the lake?


Did I miss the bit where all personal vehicles were outlawed ?


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## nickyboy (7 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> This assumes a model of pay-per-use - it might be that a carpooling or subscription service becomes normalised so that you can hail a ride whenever you need it with no further cost.
> 
> Additionally, if you give up the need for a personal car then you don't need a house with a driveway, so may be able to live nearer to places you want to get to. You may also not need a garage. You also save yourself the cost of owning a vehicle, which funds a lot of taxi rides.
> 
> As stated above, for most domestic users a car spends most of the time being an ornament. In a commercial context you'd never have a machine with such low utilisation rates and it represents a big depreciating asset.


History shows that these huge shifts do occur. But they never happen as quickly as people expect based on rational analysis. Inevitably, younger people, maybe never having owned their own vehicle will be easily persuaded to just use a subscription/pooling model. But older folk, with decades of personal car ownership? They are going to take a huge amount of shifting. 

My guess would be this: If a reliable self driving, ride hailing system became available today it would be decades before it became the prevailing method that people used for personal transport


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## Tenkaykev (7 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Will uber get my boat in and out of the lake?


That's a separate App, UBoat 😉


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## figbat (7 Jan 2022)

The shift is already underway. Uptake of driving lessons has been down in young'uns for a while; these are the Uber/Lyft generation who will likely catalyse the revolution. But yes, it will take time to become mainstream. That said, EVs have taken off quicker than forecasted even a handful of years ago.

I sometimes feel sad that my kids may never do 'proper' driving, with clutches and gearsticks and such.


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## Milkfloat (7 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Not for long, once you spend hours in traffic if everyone did the same.


There won't be traffic - the road will be utilised better. With no need for traffic lights, give ways and stop signs together with cars that can cross within inches of each other the road capacity will be significantly greater.


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> There won't be traffic - the road will be utilised better. With no need for traffic lights, give ways and stop signs together with cars that can cross within inches of each other the road capacity will be significantly greater.



I hope they don't frighten the unicorns.


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## cougie uk (7 Jan 2022)

There's always going to be traffic. 

The next generation will struggle to buy houses. They are not going to have the spare cash to spend on expensive cars. 

Self driving cabs will be perfect for them. They'll need all the cash they can to get a roof over their heads.


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## All uphill (7 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> History shows that these huge shifts do occur. But they never happen as quickly as people expect based on rational analysis. Inevitably, younger people, maybe never having owned their own vehicle will be easily persuaded to just use a subscription/pooling model. But older folk, with decades of personal car ownership? They are going to take a huge amount of shifting.
> 
> My guess would be this: If a reliable self driving, ride hailing system became available today it would be decades before it became the prevailing method that people used for personal transport


I, for one, have owned cars for nearly 50 years and can't wait to move to a ride hailing option.

I hate the depreciation, maintenance, taxes and use of space and precious capital.

Let's go!


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

All uphill said:


> I, for one, have owned cars for nearly 50 years and can't wait to move to a ride hailing option.
> 
> I hate the depreciation, maintenance, taxes and use of space and precious capital.
> 
> Let's go!



I don't enjoy driving any more, it's crap. We'd be better served by better public transport, not individual vehicles. Even short term, we need manufacturers to produce more cheaper city 'electric cars' cars. One of those would be ideal for many people's commutes. Under 30 miles return, plug in at home/work, don't need any more than 100 mile range (to keep costs down), doesn't really need to go faster than 70 mph, and doesn't need to do 0.60 in 3 seconds.

That Dacia looks ideal. Even those little mini city bug things that are on the horizon, but at least the Dacia is super mini sized without the 'super' premium.


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## Electric_Andy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> manufacturers to produce more cheaper city 'electric cars' cars


I don't think you could have one as a do-it-all car. There's the Renault Twizy which looks ideal for commuting and short runs, easy to park, could probably fit some shopping in too. But you wouldn't want to take it on holiday. If public transport was better outside of the biggest cities then maybe take a train or hire a car, but for many I'd think that a very small electric would be useful for a 2 car family, but not on it's own.

To have a sole car per family, you're into a mid-sized family electric car which is I think what most of them are now


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I don't think you could have one as a do-it-all car. There's the Renault Twizy which looks ideal for commuting and short runs, easy to park, could probably fit some shopping in too. But you wouldn't want to take it on holiday. If public transport was better outside of the biggest cities then maybe take a train or hire a car, but for many I'd think that a very small electric would be useful for a 2 car family, but not on it's own.
> 
> To have a sole car per family, you're into a mid-sized family electric car which is I think what most of them are now



I'd have one in a shot as a 'run around'. We've got two bigish family planet burners, which you could replace with a cheap electric run around. I'm not one for spending £35k on a tin box though


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## Electric_Andy (7 Jan 2022)

yeah saftey would be a bit of a concern! Also you'd need to wear a coat if it was raining


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## Milkfloat (7 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I hope they don't frighten the unicorns.


Frighten them, they will mow them all down. I work in the industry, all this is a long, long way off.


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## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I'd have one in a shot as a 'run around'. We've got two bigish family planet burners, which you could replace with a cheap electric run around. I'm not one for spending £35k on a tin box though


Your son would need to give up his car too (if it's actually working  ...those millennials need to embrace this, future for them not us (slightly) oldies


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Your son would need to give up his car too (if it's actually working  ...those millennials need to embrace this, future for them not us (slightly) oldies


I can't see him and his mates giving up their fart boxes. PS It's still broken.


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## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I can't see him and his mates giving up their fart boxes. PS It's still broken.


And that's where the issue will lie...cyclists are probably more open to non-car based transport...the majority of non cyclists who have cars or access to cars are less open


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## gzoom (8 Jan 2022)

Tesla is about to put the price of their 'Full Self Driving' Software in the US up to $12K - Bare in mind the Model 3 originally was targeting $35K base price. There is also the suggestion that the 'final' price will go even higher......So either Musk has totally lost it (which is always possible) or they are more confident of achieving autonomy than before!


View: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1479590995595517958?s=20

If this was anyone else I would say they are nuts, but than again this is the same person who proved Thunderbirds was already a reality in 2021!!


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## oldwheels (8 Jan 2022)

The comments I have seen all seem to be city based. Rural transport is a different ball game and I could not manage without personal transport. In any case public transport is no use to me as I cannot walk more than a few hundred yards.
I live in an area with a lot of steep hills so cycling is not really viable. With no motorised transport I might as well be dead.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jan 2022)

oldwheels said:


> The comments I have seen all seem to be city based. Rural transport is a different ball game and I could not manage without personal transport. In any case public transport is no use to me as I cannot walk more than a few hundred yards.
> I live in an area with a lot of steep hills so cycling is not really viable. With no motorised transport I might as well be dead.


Are you able to cycle at all? I'd suggest a powerful e-bike if you have any difficulty cycling


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## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

Nobody's banning personal transport. But in cities - having your own car often doesn't make a lot of sense. 

Electric bikes are brilliant. You should definitely try one out if you can't cycle.


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## cyberknight (8 Jan 2022)

oldwheels said:


> The comments I have seen all seem to be city based. Rural transport is a different ball game and I could not manage without personal transport. In any case public transport is no use to me as I cannot walk more than a few hundred yards.
> I live in an area with a lot of steep hills so cycling is not really viable. With no motorised transport I might as well be dead.





CXRAndy said:


> Are you able to cycle at all? I'd suggest a powerful e-bike if you have any difficulty cycling


indeed i work shifts with no set finish time and the nearest bus stop is at least 2 miles away assuming there was even a service at the times i need one (no chance )

luckily i am able bodied so i manage to cycle , otherwise it would be no choice but to use a vehicle


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## FishFright (8 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Still doesn't bode well. The thought of an automated car on crowded roads sounds like a utopian nightmare to me



More or less scary than some of the morons who are in charge of 2 tons of vehicle already ?


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## oldwheels (8 Jan 2022)

Replying to CXRAndy. An ebike is no use to me as I also have balance problems which stops me cycling. An e-assist trike is possible but the storage for this would up a couple of flights of steps tho' not an insurmountable problem. 
My current trike lives in my car but I am the only motor and there are no dealers anywhere near me. I am not sure I could justify the amount of money I would need to spend to give the power and range required so long as I have a car.
Given the problems caused by the selfish tourist industry I would probably be forced out of my home of 50 years anyway and move to the mainland but in my lifetime I do not think this is possible.


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## oldwheels (8 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Are you able to cycle at all? I'd suggest a powerful e-bike if you have any difficulty cycling


Bit of a mix up with my posts so duplicating this bit. I have balance problems so two wheels are out. An e-assist trike is possible but range could be a limiting factor. To be realistic and give some leeway 100 miles would be needed. I do have some past experience with an ebike and I would give the realistic range as possibly half to two thirds of that claimed.


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## gbb (8 Jan 2022)

Just rambling thoughts ive had over the last few months...
Will millions of people lose the need/ability/ possibility to own a car in say 30 years when ICE vehicles are by then largely scrapped or totally uneconomical to drive. Millions if cars off the road, im sure there are sectors if society that would welcome that, damned proles n all that.
Will car pooling / rental cars become the norm ? Will cars go like rental cycles in towns etc, a pool of cars at given points, available to anyone thats subscribed.
I still dont buy that EVs (purely battery tech) are the future, not if they simply want to replace billions of cars around the world, is it even remotely likely they could, is car ownership as we know it going to be a thing of the past ?

Personally , im not very hopefull for the future of peoples freedom of choice, i think things are going to be very different in 20, 30 years.but maybe there will be a shift for the good, one that will still enable the masses to move around with the same freedom we have now without all / most of the negatives cars produce right now.
Ultimately, im not convinced full battery tech is the answer, i think we have a long long way to go, weve only just started the journey perhaps.


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## Richard A Thackeray (8 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> All the Amazon delivery vans in my area are Mercedes electric ones.
> Amazon tend to know what they're doing.


I saw one this morning, whilst going to pick a family friend up


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## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

gbb said:


> Just rambling thoughts ive had over the last few months...
> Will millions of people lose the need/ability/ possibility to own a car in say 30 years when ICE vehicles are by then largely scrapped or totally uneconomical to drive. Millions if cars off the road, im sure there are sectors if society that would welcome that, damned proles n all that.
> Will car pooling / rental cars become the norm ? Will cars go like rental cycles in towns etc, a pool of cars at given points, available to anyone thats subscribed.
> I still dont buy that EVs (purely battery tech) are the future, not if they simply want to replace billions of cars around the world, is it even remotely likely they could, is car ownership as we know it going to be a thing of the past ?
> ...


Your avatar seems well chosen.
40 years ago having a car was a sign you were doing well. Remember how nice the streets were without being cluttered up by cars on the pavement ? Heck we could play out in the street when I was little. Couldn't do that now - too many cars and too much traffic.

Cars are crap. But if you have to have one - get an electric.


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## FishFright (8 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not spotted any in my area and their rather large hub is 6 miles up the road . DPD have one , a local delivery van other than that it’s white van man and they ain’t electric.



Both Amazon and DPD have a mix around here , driver for DPD told me they won't be buying any more diesels.


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## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

It's surprisingly hard to spot an EV tbh. The green plates have not long come in, and not every one chooses to have them. 
You can't really keep track of all of the EV models now - there's so many. 
Out on the road you're unlikely to hear much difference given how quiet engines can be and the fact that most of the noise is road noise anyway.
Best bet is to go for a walk round the neighbourhood and see how many charge points there are now.


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## gbb (8 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Your avatar seems well chosen.
> 40 years ago having a car was a sign you were doing well. Remember how nice the streets were without being cluttered up by cars on the pavement ? Heck we could play out in the street when I was little. Couldn't do that now - too many cars and too much traffic.
> 
> Cars are crap. But if you have to have one - get an electric.


Oh I want the freedom a car brings, had it since those 1970s but accept those days were simpler, better in many ways...and we have fooked things up . As i suggested, perhaps pool / rental cars are the future, i don't see it continuing as it is...but we will have to adapt to new ways


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## Tenkaykev (8 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's surprisingly hard to spot an EV tbh. The green plates have not long come in, and not every one chooses to have them.
> You can't really keep track of all of the EV models now - there's so many.
> Out on the road you're unlikely to hear much difference given how quiet engines can be and the fact that most of the noise is road noise anyway.
> Best bet is to go for a walk round the neighbourhood and see how many charge points there are now.


I've been doing this ( charging point spotting )for a little while now, ever since a couple of new builds had them fitted. The front of the houses have a smallish garden, then a parking area with block paviers and a central freestanding wooden post with the charging point fitted. I've seen a couple of vehicles parked at the kerb with a charging cable under a rubber anti trip strip.


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## FishFright (8 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Not for long, once you spend hours in traffic if everyone did the same.



As opposed to sitting in traffic now of course


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## Richard A Thackeray (8 Jan 2022)

Just seen this on the 'B3TA' pages


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## MrGrumpy (8 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Best bet is to go for a walk round the neighbourhood and see how many charge points there are now.



Public or at home ? If public there is grand total of 3


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## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Public or at home ? If public there is grand total of 3


I was talking about home. As I've said I've only ever used public chargers about 6 times. 

Went to visit an elderly relative in deepest Wales last weekend. Just charged up on her drive overnight. No drama.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jan 2022)

Virtually every house in our village has an available charge point.


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## MrGrumpy (8 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Virtually every house in our village has an available charge point.


Do they leave their front doors open for you ?


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## farfromtheland (9 Jan 2022)

This is an interesting read - the second half particularly, as I feel the reports on 'investment' under privatisation don't give the bigger picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_the_privatisation_of_British_Rail

This too - I thought London School of Economics before I looked but it turned out to be US Mid-west focused.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2014/02/24/commuting-time-city-maturity/
The idea of city maturity to me would imply the old school garden city model with work within walking distance.

We need to make public transport better and cheaper than driving, and/or driving worse and more expensive. Electric cars achieve the expense but not the other benefits. The one-off environmental costs of manufacture are heavier than cleaning up older cars.


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## CXRAndy (9 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Do they leave their front doors open for you ?


Pretty much, no crime in our area


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## cougie uk (9 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Do they leave their front doors open for you ?


Why would you need to charge in your home village away from the house ?


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## MrGrumpy (9 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Why would you need to charge in your home village away from the house ?


Maybe because you don’t have a drive or on street parking  ?!


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## classic33 (9 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Your avatar seems well chosen.
> 40 years ago having a car was a sign you were doing well. Remember how nice the streets were without being cluttered up by cars on the pavement ? Heck we could play out in the street when I was little. Couldn't do that now - too many cars and too much traffic.
> *
> Cars are crap. But if you have to have one - get an electric.*


Why would anyone want to spend money on a crap electric car?


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## Scottish Scrutineer (10 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> £28k is a shed load of cash . Comes back once more to used car prices. What they going to look like in future, right now EVs are unaffordable for the many .


It is, but less than buying a new 4x4 which could also be described as unaffordable for many. Used car prices in general are holding firm, caused by the shortages of chips for the many ECUs in modern cars.


Electric_Andy said:


> yeah safety would be a bit of a concern! Also you'd need to wear a coat if it was raining


As cyclists, ar we not used to dressing for the weather conditions?


MrGrumpy said:


> Public or at home ? If public there is grand total of 3


More coming https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/ne...arging-hub-installed-hillend-industrial-park/ plus 2 in the town centre car park outside the chemists/LBs


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## icowden (10 Jan 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> More coming https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/ne...arging-hub-installed-hillend-industrial-park/ plus 2 in the town centre car park outside the chemists/LBs


And it's worth saying that most of the time you don't need to use a public charger. Most of the time you are charging at home.


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## CXRAndy (10 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> And it's worth saying that most of the time you don't need to use a public charger. Most of the time you are charging at home.


Spot on. 99% of our charging is from home.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> And it's worth saying that most of the time you don't need to use a public charger. Most of the time you are charging at home.


It’s just as well because it’s taking them an age to put the two in so far round our neck of the woods. I’m sure there will be a ramp up as EVs become main stream…….


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## Tenkaykev (10 Jan 2022)

There’s a walk I do on a semi regular basis, it goes along a disused railway line and then there’s a ramp up to pass a pub car park. Several months ago a charging point was installed in the car park, just the one, but it seems to be used on quite a regular basis.


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## ClichéGuevara (10 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s just as well because it’s taking them an age to put the two in so far round our neck of the woods. I’m sure there will be a ramp up as EVs become main stream…….



There is an argument within government on whether _they_ should be creating community charging points at all, offering the fact _they_ never built petrol filling stations as justification.


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## figbat (10 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> There is an argument within government on whether _they_ should be creating community charging points at all, offering the fact _they_ never built petrol filling stations as justification.


But _they_ are pushing for reduced emissions to meet _their_ international (and societal) commitments. _They_ are not the only ones putting charging points in either.


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## ClichéGuevara (10 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> But _they_ are pushing for reduced emissions to meet* their international (and societal) commitments.* _They_ are not the only ones putting charging points in either.


They're our representatives, so are (arguably) pushing the public mandate not theirs.


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## figbat (10 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> They're our representatives, so are (arguably) pushing the public mandate not theirs.


Indeed, but are they pushing it at the public's expected rate of change? The deployment of grants and investments in infrastructure suggests that the public is being pushed, rather than the government being pulled.


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## ClichéGuevara (10 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Indeed, but are they pushing it at the public's expected rate of change? The deployment of grants and investments in infrastructure suggests that the public is being pushed, rather than the government being pulled.



I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to say, but it looks to be heading in a direction that's not appropriate for here, so I'll leave it now.


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## MrGrumpy (10 Jan 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> It is, but less than buying a new 4x4 which could also be described as unaffordable for many. Used car prices in general are holding firm, caused by the shortages of chips for the many ECUs in modern cars.
> 
> As cyclists, ar we not used to dressing for the weather conditions?
> 
> More coming https://www.dunfermlinepress.com/ne...arging-hub-installed-hillend-industrial-park/ plus 2 in the town centre car park outside the chemists/LBs


Just spotted some more going in for planning.  BP garage is putting charging points in! Looks like I need to back track  . So handy anyway for Those whom cannot charge at home , of which there are plenty round my way !!


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## icowden (10 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just spotted some more going in for planning.  BP garage is putting charging points in! Looks like I need to back track  . So handy anyway for Those whom cannot charge at home , of which there are plenty round my way !!


Yep. They are already starting to think about the future of forecourts...


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## CXRAndy (10 Jan 2022)

I mentioned about Shell had fully converted a petrol station on Fulham road, a week or two back. Daughter used it with our Leaf.

I believe it was the first, but expect hundreds in the coming years.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (11 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just spotted some more going in for planning.  BP garage is putting charging points in! Looks like I need to back track  . So handy anyway for Those whom cannot charge at home , of which there are plenty round my way !!


However, don't be surprised if that BP/M&S charges 10% more than elsewhere and they are blocked by people (with ICE vehicles) doing their shopping. Lets wait on the DB Billboard warriors


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## Tenkaykev (11 Jan 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> However, don't be surprised if that BP/M&S charges 10% more than elsewhere and they are blocked by people (with ICE vehicles) doing their shopping. Lets wait on the DB Billboard warriors


As I've mentioned previously, these aren't just Electrons, these are M+S Electrons...


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## fossyant (11 Jan 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> However, don't be surprised if that BP/M&S charges 10% more than elsewhere and they are blocked by people (with ICE vehicles) doing their shopping. Lets wait on the DB Billboard warriors



I recon you'll find chargers blocked by fully charged leccy cars - people are lazy ! They won't come back after an hour and move their charged car, believe me.


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## figbat (11 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I recon you'll find chargers blocked by fully charged leccy cars - people are lazy ! They won't come back after an hour and move their charged car, believe me.


This is an etiquette that is new to EVs vs ICEs. With an ICE we are used to parking and then leaving it parked until we want to leave. With an EV you are not only parking, but also charging - many still essentially consider the EV charging space as a convenient, priority parking space (rather like a disabled or parent & child one) which they qualify for because they are in an EV (or even worse, a PHEV). The idea that the space should be vacated when the car is charged is an inconvenience and I have never seen any charging locations that monitor or punish 'overstayers' - this could come though.

Ultimately, if all parking spaces offered charging then no problem, park where you like as long as you like.


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## fossyant (11 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> This is an etiquette that is new to EVs vs ICEs. With an ICE we are used to parking and then leaving it parked until we want to leave. With an EV you are not only parking, but also charging - many still essentially consider the EV charging space as a convenient, priority parking space (rather like a disabled or parent & child one) which they qualify for because they are in an EV (or even worse, a PHEV). The idea that the space should be vacated when the car is charged is an inconvenience and I have never seen any charging locations that monitor or punish 'overstayers' - this could come though.
> 
> Ultimately, if all parking spaces offered charging then no problem, park where you like as long as you like.



Happens at work, EV's, and god forbid, PHEV's parked all day at the leccy pump !


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## figbat (11 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Happens at work, EV's, and god forbid, PHEV's parked all day at the leccy pump !


Same here. You just know that the PHEV is full in an hour but it stays there all day - and we have more (PH)EVs than spaces, so an informal network of users has formed to contact for charging time, although not all (PH)EV drivers are in it.

My car lets me know when it is full through the connected app, so I can go and move it when it's done - at work I can see my car park from my office so if there are EV spaces still free I'll leave mine where it is, but if they are full and mine is charged I'll move it. Out and about when shopping, I won't necessarily rush back the moment it is charged but will return to it if I am nearby and/or have a load of stuff I want to dump in the boot.


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## Richard A Thackeray (13 Jan 2022)

America?

“Vorsprung Durch Electronik”?


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## figbat (13 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> America?
> 
> View attachment 626190


Austria


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## cougie uk (13 Jan 2022)

Nothing to stop it from being an electric car with a recycled battery pack towed behind it in the future though.


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## cougie uk (13 Jan 2022)

I was wrong. No need to tow it. You can use a suitcase size battery. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...rm-launches-portable-ev-charger-urban-drivers


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## ClichéGuevara (13 Jan 2022)

If the manufacturers standardised the batteries, and made them more readily removable, a battery exchange system would get around many problems.


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## cougie uk (13 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> If the manufacturers standardised the batteries, and made them more readily removable, a battery exchange system would get around many problems.


We've been through this. The battery is a big bulky item. 
It would need automation or a fork lift to take it out assuming that it was easily removable. 
And then why would you swap say a newish battery for an older one ?

I've had my ev for 18 months now and easily more than 99% of charging is on the driveway.


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## ClichéGuevara (13 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> We've been through this. The battery is a big bulky item.
> It would need automation or a fork lift to take it out assuming that it was easily removable.
> And then why would you swap say a newish battery for an older one ?
> 
> *I've had my ev for 18 months now and easily more than 99% of charging is on the driveway.*



An option that's not available to a big percentage of users. The logistical changes needed could be part of the uniform design. It could make a smaller range more palatable, if quick top up's were readily available.


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## cougie uk (13 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> An option that's not available to a big percentage of users. The logistical changes needed could be part of the uniform design. It could make a smaller range more palatable, if quick top up's were readily available.


It's called fast charging.


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## ClichéGuevara (13 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's called fast charging.



Which requires a huge infrastructure to be developed as the power isn't often available to be delivered at the places it's liable to be needed.


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## Tenkaykev (13 Jan 2022)

Although I don't own a vehicle of any description ( apart from my Brommies ) I do keep a keen eye on the technology as it progresses. I subscribe to the " Munro Live " YouTube channel. Sandy Munro is in his 70's and has been in the motor trade most of his working life and it's interesting to get an insight into what technology and manufacturing decisions lie underneath the various vehicles they strip down all the way to the individual components, even down to the dismantling the battery packs and electronic modules.
The latest video is quite long at about an hour, and is a "talking heads" with another highly respected senior engineer. Among the snippets that found particularly interesting was that back in the 1910's there were over fifty electric vehicle manufacturing companies in the USA, and electric vehicles outsold IC engined cars at a ratio of 4-1. They were simpler and easier to start It was only after the invention of the electric starter that petrol engined vehicles started to gain traction. He stresses how rapidly things can change and references the switch from horse drawn vehicles to cars. A very interesting channel with highly qualified engineers / analysts and well worth a look. One image that stood out:


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## cougie uk (13 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Which requires a huge infrastructure to be developed as the power isn't often available to be delivered at the places it's liable to be needed.


If there's no electricity - there's no petrol stations either.


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## ClichéGuevara (13 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If there's no electricity - there's no petrol stations either.



I think I can see a teeny flaw in your argument there, but I'll leave you to it.


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## Alex321 (13 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If there's no electricity - there's no petrol stations either.


While that is true, charging EVs requires rather more of the stuff than is needed to operate petrol pumps and the shop.

Each charge point will need to be at least 7Kw - and preferably 22KW which requires 3-pohase electicity. I have no idea how many forecourts currently have a 3-phase supply


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## Electric_Andy (13 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I mentioned about Shell had fully converted a petrol station on Fulham road, a week or two back. Daughter used it with our Leaf.
> 
> I believe it was the first, but expect hundreds in the coming years.


Just out of interest, are these charging points in forecourts in the same place as the petrol pumps, or are they in parking areas at the front/side? And how much do they charge..and how? There are charging spaces in my hospital multi storey car park, but I've never had a close look at them to see if you have to pay for charging. How does it work? Surely you can't pre-pay becasue you don't know how long you'll need. Or do you put your card details in first and then it charges you for whatever you've used?


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> While that is true, charging EVs requires rather more of the stuff than is needed to operate petrol pumps and the shop.
> 
> Each charge point will need to be at least 7Kw - and preferably 22KW which requires 3-pohase electicity. I have no idea how many forecourts currently have a 3-phase supply


They will have 3 phase I’m sure ? Many have car washes beside them and air compressors. However getting back to the point of exchange batteries . Why not ? I think it’s a great idea


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Just out of interest, are these charging points in forecourts in the same place as the petrol pumps, or are they in parking areas at the front/side? And how much do they charge..and how? There are charging spaces in my hospital multi storey car park, but I've never had a close look at them to see if you have to pay for charging. How does it work? Surely you can't pre-pay becasue you don't know how long you'll need. Or do you put your card details in first and then it charges you for whatever you've used?



Looking at the planning for the ones that will go in beside me it’s off to the side which has already got car parking .


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## Tenkaykev (13 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> They will have 3 phase I’m sure ? Many have car washes beside them and air compressors. However getting back to the point of exchange batteries . Why not ? I think it’s a great idea


There's this article that goes into some of the issues:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/ev-battery-swapping-how-is-this-a-good-idea


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## Alex321 (13 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> They will have 3 phase I’m sure ? Many have car washes beside them and air compressors. However getting back to the point of exchange batteries . Why not ? I think it’s a great idea


It would need massive improvements in battery technology for it to be practical.

With current batteries, removing and replacing would take more time than a regular fast charge because of the size and weight. As said previously, you are talking fork lifts here. And probably pretty major redesign of vehicles to make them easily removable.

And standardisation across manufacturers - charging/changeover stations would not be wanting to carry stocks of a dozen different battery types.

And then you have the question of replacing like-for-like - you may have only charged the battery in your car a dozen times from new, using your home charger, then go on a long journey, replace the battery part way through that, and get one that has been cycled 5000 times.

In principle, it sounds like a good idea. But the practicalities make it unlikely t happen any time soon IMO.


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## vickster (13 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Just out of interest, are these charging points in forecourts in the same place as the petrol pumps, or are they in parking areas at the front/side? And how much do they charge..and how? There are charging spaces in my hospital multi storey car park, but I've never had a close look at them to see if you have to pay for charging. How does it work? Surely you can't pre-pay becasue you don't know how long you'll need. Or do you put your card details in first and then it charges you for whatever you've used?


Credit/debit card presumably like pay at pump petrol stations?


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## Alex321 (13 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Credit/debit card presumably like pay at pump petrol stations?


I was just about to say the same.

I would imagine they will work exactly the same way pay at pump does for current petrol/diesel filling.

Put your card details in, and it then says "Now lift nozzle and begin fuelling. Maximum £99". They will just need to modify the wording slightly.


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## BrumJim (13 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Just out of interest, are these charging points in forecourts in the same place as the petrol pumps, or are they in parking areas at the front/side? And how much do they charge..and how? There are charging spaces in my hospital multi storey car park, but I've never had a close look at them to see if you have to pay for charging. How does it work? Surely you can't pre-pay becasue you don't know how long you'll need. Or do you put your card details in first and then it charges you for whatever you've used?


Some charging points are free, as an encouragement to use their services, e.g. Tesco, Co-op and some restaurants, pubs, etc. Charge rate for some of these can be quite low.

Normally it is through an App (what isn't, these days) which takes care of the control and charging. Just log in to the App, confirm, and it will send a message to the charger to start. Some give you 15mins of charge before it needs confirmation. Some use a pre-pay RFID card, and some may use a credit card reader, but an App is by far the most common method.

Charging can be what they want. Seen prices of up to 45p/kWh. Fast chargers may be even more, to the point where they are no longer competitive with fuel. At home rates, though, I am saving roughly 1/4 of the price compared to my last car. As a guide, it costs me roughly £5 to get 150 miles of range.


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## BrumJim (13 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> America?
> 
> “Vorsprung Durch Electronik”?
> 
> View attachment 626190


Are you sure its a generator? Normally it is a battery pack that gives enough charge for the car to get to the nearest charging point.


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## Tenkaykev (13 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Are you sure its a generator? Normally it is a battery pack that gives enough charge for the car to get to the nearest charging point.


The RAC use the patrol vehicles diesel engine to power the generator.
https://www.rac.co.uk/innovation/ev-boost


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## CXRAndy (13 Jan 2022)

The government instructed all EV charging networks to swap over to contactless payment. From what Ive seen this has been adopted and roll out all contactless for new charge stations. 

Roll up flash your card, plug in and decide how much range you want. Couldn't be easier. Well it can, if you use Tesla's network. They have all your payment details preloaded. Its know your car, just pull up, press a button on the lead, charge socket auto opens, away you go. In the case of my car totally free for life of ownership


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jan 2022)

Better wipe again


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## CXRAndy (13 Jan 2022)

There are 7 homes with EVs in our village of around 60 properties. Quite surprising for such a sleepy little hollow


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

There is a brand new housing estate on the site of the local hospital. This has an extraordinary number of electric cars. Is it because:
a) These houses have drives, and so electric or potential electric car owners will buy one in preference to a more traditional Bournville house?
b) People who buy new houses are less tied to tradition and therefore more likely to accept electric vehicles as the future?
c) People in new housing estates are all new to the area, and therefore more likely to follow herd instinct, and it took just one person to get an electric car for lots to follow?
d) People who have the money to buy a new house also have the money to buy a new car. And just taking a cross-section of the UK new car sales, a greater proportion of those new cars are electric?


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

Keeping up with the joneses


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## cougie uk (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> There is a brand new housing estate on the site of the local hospital. This has an extraordinary number of electric cars. Is it because:
> a) These houses have drives, and so electric or potential electric car owners will buy one in preference to a more traditional Bournville house?
> b) People who buy new houses are less tied to tradition and therefore more likely to accept electric vehicles as the future?
> c) People in new housing estates are all new to the area, and therefore more likely to follow herd instinct, and it took just one person to get an electric car for lots to follow?
> d) People who have the money to buy a new house also have the money to buy a new car. And just taking a cross-section of the UK new car sales, a greater proportion of those new cars are electric?


You can save a fortune with an electric car if you have to drive a fair bit.


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> There is a brand new housing estate on the site of the local hospital. This has an extraordinary number of electric cars. Is it because:
> a) These houses have drives, and so electric or potential electric car owners will buy one in preference to a more traditional Bournville house?
> b) People who buy new houses are less tied to tradition and therefore more likely to accept electric vehicles as the future?
> c) People in new housing estates are all new to the area, and therefore more likely to follow herd instinct, and it took just one person to get an electric car for lots to follow?
> d) People who have the money to buy a new house also have the money to buy a new car. And just taking a cross-section of the UK new car sales, a greater proportion of those new cars are electric?


Probably mostly a combination of A & B. I doubt c has much validity yet, it takes a lot more than one or two for that behaviour to kick in. And d is very unlikely to be true, you are much more likely to be skint after buying a new house than at most other times.


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## CXRAndy (14 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> You can save a fortune with an electric car if you have to drive a fair bit.


You certainly can. My mate is putting nearly a £100 a week in his performance Audi. I on the other £20 for same distances. My car is faster


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

Yes but your one sounds like a milk float  . His on the other hand doesn’t


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## CXRAndy (14 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes but your one sounds like a milk float  . His on the other hand doesn’t


I cant do with your asinine comments anymore-ignored


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## midlife (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> There is a brand new housing estate on the site of the local hospital. This has an extraordinary number of electric cars. Is it because:
> a) These houses have drives, and so electric or potential electric car owners will buy one in preference to a more traditional Bournville house?
> b) People who buy new houses are less tied to tradition and therefore more likely to accept electric vehicles as the future?
> c) People in new housing estates are all new to the area, and therefore more likely to follow herd instinct, and it took just one person to get an electric car for lots to follow?
> d) People who have the money to buy a new house also have the money to buy a new car. And just taking a cross-section of the UK new car sales, a greater proportion of those new cars are electric?



There's a lot of building going on around me including some at £625,000 which for Cumbria makes them mansions lol.

I don't think any of them have any car charging points. I have one though but no EV


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## Scaleyback (14 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes but your one sounds like a milk float  . His on the other hand doesn’t


I cant do with your asinine comments anymore-ignored.

At the risk of being ignored, I thought it was funny


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## harlechjoe (14 Jan 2022)

Batteries for an e-bike cost quite a few quid and my owners guide claims it it good for 600 charges. Whilst the use of e-cars help stop air pollution I question whether the e-battery on a car will last as long as conventional engines. I guess the replacement cost of an e-battery for a car will run into thousands of pounds. If this is the case will people will simply change their e-car rather than the battery which is great for the manufacturers but not so great for saving the earth.


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I cant do with your asinine comments anymore-ignored.
> 
> At the risk of being ignored, I thought it was funny



So did I ! Leccy cars need a Tie Fighter noise, then they would be cool.


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

harlechjoe said:


> Batteries for an e-bike cost quite a few quid and my owners guide claims it it good for 600 charges. Whilst the use of e-cars help stop air pollution I question whether the e-battery on a car will last as long as conventional engines. I guess the replacement cost of an e-battery for a car will run into thousands of pounds. If this is the case will people will simply change their e-car rather than the battery which is great for the manufacturers but not so great for saving the earth.


This is what what was touched on way back , Who will want to run about in a 10yr old used car that’s battery has been abused whilst charging !


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2022)

harlechjoe said:


> Batteries for an e-bike cost quite a few quid and my owners guide claims it it good for 600 charges. Whilst the use of e-cars help stop air pollution I question whether the e-battery on a car will last as long as conventional engines. I guess the replacement cost of an e-battery for a car will run into thousands of pounds. If this is the case will people will simply change their e-car rather than the battery which is great for the manufacturers but not so great for saving the earth.



I think the car manufacturers guarantee a battery for about 8 years. Tesla wanted £17k for a new battery for a chap recently, so he blew his car up instead. 

The batteries are very expensive. I'm sure there will be aftermarket batteries available at some point. standardisation of batteries would be a good idea depending upon 'size' - cheaper for all.


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> I cant do with your asinine comments anymore-ignored.
> 
> At the risk of being ignored, I thought it was funny


Apparently not everyone thought it funny  oh well


----------



## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I think the car manufacturers guarantee a battery for about 8 years. Tesla wanted £17k for a new battery for a chap recently, so he blew his car up instead.
> 
> The batteries are very expensive. I'm sure there will be aftermarket batteries available at some point. standardisation of batteries would be a good idea depending upon 'size' - cheaper for all.


It’s utter madness really to think that at 8yrs if your battery goes kaput that’s it . Now granted car engines can go the same way but potentially you could repair it fairly straightforward. Repairing these batteries will not be as straight forward !


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## cougie uk (14 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes but your one sounds like a milk float  . His on the other hand doesn’t


We all LOVE noise pollution and smog eh kids ?

And on a related note. Don't cycle in London today as the pollution is too high for you...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-physical-activity-on-friday-due-to-pollution


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## Electric_Andy (14 Jan 2022)

Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


It’s possible a bit like us all buying diesel cars !


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## cougie uk (14 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s utter madness really to think that at 8yrs if your battery goes kaput that’s it . Now granted car engines can go the same way but potentially you could repair it fairly straightforward. Repairing these batteries will not be as straight forward !


It's utter madness to believe that the battery only lasts for 8 years. 

What's the standard warranty on say a BMW ? Oh it's three years. 

Imagine buying a BMW and having to throw it away after three years ? These ICE cars are a con. 

Please educate yourself on electric cars. You're making yourself look very silly.


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## icowden (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


Nope. I can't see hydrogen power being better than electric power personally. Returning to putting something massively explosive into a car seems counterproductive.


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


I'm not really convinced that hydrogen powered cars ever will be the norm. If they ever are, it will be fuel cells which are still EVs from a motive power POV.


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## cougie uk (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


1. You use more electric getting the hydrogen to put into the car than you would by just charging the battery. 
2. Who is building the hydrogen network ? I only know of one hydrogen car - the Toyota one ?
3. Over 99% of my charging is on my drive for a pittance. Why would I pay more to drive somewhere to wait around to fill up ?


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## byegad (14 Jan 2022)

harlechjoe said:


> Batteries for an e-bike cost quite a few quid and my owners guide claims it it good for 600 charges. Whilst the use of e-cars help stop air pollution I question whether the e-battery on a car will last as long as conventional engines. I guess the replacement cost of an e-battery for a car will run into thousands of pounds. If this is the case will people will simply change their e-car rather than the battery which is great for the manufacturers but not so great for saving the earth.


I drive a Toyota hybrid. Picking the car up after service one day I asked about battery life. They know I change my car every three years or so, so I trust their answer.
They say they have changed one battery on a hybrid since the Prius came out and that battery was 12 yrs old. They give a 5 yrs warranty on the battery, increasing to 10 years if you have the car serviced by them.

This is practical experience so any worries about battery life is a red herring. The Prius came out in 1997.


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's utter madness to believe that the battery only lasts for 8 years.
> 
> What's the standard warranty on say a BMW ? Oh it's three years.
> 
> ...


Not really he wasn't.

The point isn't that they WILL go after 8 years, any more than that the ICE will die after 3.

The point was that when they do, it is a complete replacement. You can't replace the parts of the battery that have died, like you can with an ICE. And replacing the battery will cost more than replacing the whole engine would have done.


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

Thank you


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> 1. You use more electric getting the hydrogen to put into the car than you would by just charging the battery.
> 2. Who is building the hydrogen network ? I only know of one hydrogen car - the Toyota one ?
> 3. Over 99% of my charging is on my drive for a pittance. Why would I pay more to drive somewhere to wait around to fill up ?



1. Yes, any and every form of fuelling a car will have used more energy to create the "fuel" than the car gets from it. That is inevitable since we will never have 100% conversion of energy. But I would tend to agree this is more so than with conventional EVs. There are more conversion stages with hydrogen fuel-cell power than with "regular" EV power - and you can't "fuel" using your own solar power.

2. There are others than just the Toyota one.
https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo

3. Most people do that now. Hydrogen fill ups if they become widespread will be just the same as current petrol fill ups.

As I just said, I'm not convinced they will be the future, but it isn't impossible. There are still many obstacles to be overcome for all domestic vehicles to be electric, and there would similarly be obstacles to be overcome for hydrogen power.


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## cougie uk (14 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Not really he wasn't.
> 
> The point isn't that they WILL go after 8 years, any more than that the ICE will die after 3.
> 
> The point was that when they do, it is a complete replacement. You can't replace the parts of the battery that have died, like you can with an ICE. And replacing the battery will cost more than replacing the whole engine would have done.


Electric cars will outlast the lifespan of ICE cars. There's so much to go wrong with engines. 


Let's look at some examples - a taxi company. That's hard miles. 

However, Tesloop, a taxi service in California that maintains a fleet of Teslas and really packs on the mileage, has reported that a Model X in their fleet has only lost around 10% of capacity over 300,000 miles. 90% capacity is well within Tesla’s battery warranty terms for degradation

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/

Even if you did want to replace the battery you will be spoiled for choice. Cars get crashed and written off. You can buy a reconditioned battery from companies now for a fraction of the crazy price you're quoting.


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


Effectively that's what they are. The problem is producing enough hydrogen, it pretty costly presently, but it's certainly a better option for bigger vehicles.

Batteries probably here to stay for personal transport, but trucks/buses and long distance will move to hydrogen.


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## cougie uk (14 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> 1. Yes, any and every form of fuelling a car will have used more energy to create the "fuel" than the car gets from it. That is inevitable since we will never have 100% conversion of energy. But I would tend to agree this is more so than with conventional EVs. There are more conversion stages with hydrogen fuel-cell power than with "regular" EV power - and you can't "fuel" using your own solar power.
> 
> 2. There are others than just the Toyota one.
> https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo
> ...


So there's two hydrogen car models now as opposed to the 300 plus EV models ? Well thanks for clearing that up. 

And there's 12 hydrogen stations. 

I know what I would bet on being the more successful solution for cars.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Effectively that's what they are. The problem is producing enough hydrogen, it pretty costly presently, but it's certainly a better option for bigger vehicles.
> 
> Batteries probably here to stay for personal transport, but trucks/buses and long distance will move to hydrogen.



A big win would be to progress the current studies aimed at producing energy from CO2.

I think part of the problem is that politicians and issue groups are driving measures, rather than scientists and engineers.


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Electric cars will outlast the lifespan of ICE cars. There's so much to go wrong with engines.
> 
> 
> Let's look at some examples - a taxi company. That's hard miles.
> ...


That’s assuming the battery is looked after if it doesn’t matter then that’s good news !


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> 1. Yes, any and every form of fuelling a car will have used more energy to create the "fuel" than the car gets from it. That is inevitable since we will never have 100% conversion of energy. But I would tend to agree this is more so than with conventional EVs. There are more conversion stages with hydrogen fuel-cell power than with "regular" EV power - and you can't "fuel" using your own solar power.
> 
> 2. There are others than just the Toyota one.
> https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo
> ...


The real problem with hydrogen is that it is so light. It is energy dense, but very, very low physical density. Hence to get it to a volume where it is storable in a car you need to squash and cool it an awful lot, and this is energy you never get back.

We are looking at hydrogen for the rail industry (mostly for fuel cells, although someone needs to address the large number of diesel units running around), and the problem areas are storage and efficiency. Hyrdrogen is simple to make using spare energy (e.g. at nights or from on-site solar and wind-power), but putting it somewhere is going to take up space that isn't normally available on a depot, but looking at the system efficiency, it looks like a big waste of power. However this will have to be balanced against the cost of putting up lots of overhead wires, particularly on very lightly used routes.


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> A big win would be to progress the current studies aimed at producing energy from CO2.
> 
> I think part of the problem is that politicians and issue groups are driving measures, rather than scientists and engineers.


Energy from CO2? That sounds like one of those perpetual machine inventions. Where does the O2 go2?


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Energy from CO2? That sounds like one of those perpetual machine inventions. Where does the O2 go2?


https://technology.nasa.gov/patent/TOP2-160

https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/waste-co2-could-be-source-of-power

https://www.anl.gov/article/turning-carbon-dioxide-into-liquid-fuel

https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-i...co2-helping-turn-renewable-energy-liquid-fuel


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> https://technology.nasa.gov/patent/TOP2-160
> 
> https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/waste-co2-could-be-source-of-power
> 
> ...


We're not getting energy from CO2, are we? All the above look fascinating, but they are just mechaisms for using renewable energy to generate a portable fuel source.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> We're not getting energy from CO2, are we? All the above look fascinating, but they are just mechaisms for using renewable energy to generate a portable fuel source.



Even if it's only forming part of the process, it's still producing energy from CO2.


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Even if it's only forming part of the process, it's still producing energy from CO2.



Can't agree with you there. To claim that you are getting energy from the CO2 is misleading. The energy is coming from somewhere else. If anything, the CO2 is 'destroying' some of the energy, because you will never get back what you have put in to split it.


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Can't agree with you there. To claim that you are getting energy from the CO2 is misleading. The energy is coming from somewhere else. If anything, the CO2 is 'destroying' some of the energy, because you will never get back what you have put in to split it.



It's not quite like that, but I'll leave it there, as I really can't be bothered.


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Even if it's only forming part of the process, it's still producing energy from CO2.


Not really.

CO2 is being used as a way of (inefficiently) temporarily storing some of the energy created by other means, until it is released back.

You are no more producing energy from CO2 than you are producing energy from a battery.


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## figbat (14 Jan 2022)

Chemistry and thermodynamics are against you. The reason why hydrocarbons end up as CO2 is because CO2 is the most energetically stable compound that forms in oxidation. Hence to 'undo' CO2 requires a huge energy input, more than you will ever recover from using whatever fuel you generate from it. In most schemes like this, CO2 is being used as a carbon source, as an alternative to hydrocarbon, in order to rebuild hydrocarbon molecules for use as combustion fuel. The energy used to do this is usually solar or some other sustainable source, reducing the overall carbon impact of the process but ultimately you are still cycling CO2 through the atmosphere and CO2 is still emitted at the point of use.


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## harlechjoe (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car


I think you make a really good point and its got me thinking - do bear in mind though that my thoughts and knowledge about this are not well informed; perhaps the commercial benefits of charging an e-car provide revenues for lots of people so businesses that can profiteer want to promote them. I am led to understand that hydrogen powered motors just need a garden tap but may be wrong. Regardless of the rights and wrongs I would much prefer a hydrogen vehicle as this avoids waiting for hours for a battery to recharge.


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## nickyboy (14 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> There's a lot of building going on around me including some at £625,000 which for Cumbria makes them mansions lol.
> 
> I don't think any of them have any car charging points. I have one though but no EV


All new builds must come with an EV charging point


----------



## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

harlechjoe said:


> I think you make a really good point and its got me thinking - do bear in mind though that my thoughts and knowledge about this are not well informed; perhaps the commercial benefits of charging an e-car provide revenues for lots of people so businesses that can profiteer want to promote them. I am led to understand that hydrogen powered motors just need a garden tap but may be wrong. Regardless of the rights and wrongs I would much prefer a hydrogen vehicle as this avoids waiting for hours for a battery to recharge.


Just a garden tap? Storing hydrogen in the form of water is probably the safest thing you can do, but as soon as you split it from water, you have a massive hazard that needs great care and attention. More so than your current gas supply, car fuel tank or garden shed with paint brush cleaner, etc. Much more so.

Electricity, on the other hand, is already sufficiently well controlled for the moment, and with a process for improving safety as we get more picky.


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## harlechjoe (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Just a garden tap? Storing hydrogen in the form of water is probably the safest thing you can do, but as soon as you split it from water, you have a massive hazard that needs great care and attention. More so than your current gas supply, car fuel tank or garden shed with paint brush cleaner, etc. Much more so.
> 
> Electricity, on the other hand, is already sufficiently well controlled for the moment, and with a process for improving safety as we get more picky.


Looking at the photo that appears above your name I can see Edward Elgar with his Sunbeam Bicycle. In its day the Sunbeam was arguably the best bike around and had an enclosure/oil bath encasing the chain. The Sunbeam factory still stands - although repurposed - on the Wolverhampton Ring Road and Elgar's sculpture was made by Jemma Pearson who produced an equally impressive one of Charles Darwin that stands inside the grounds of Shrewsbury school. Bon Velo BrumJim


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## roubaixtuesday (14 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Does anyone here think that EVs are just a stop gap? Just a theory, but if/when hydrogen powered cars are the norm, all these people with old batteries will be scrapping the car and getting a hydrogen one, rather than paying £7k to put a new battery in an already 10 year old car



You can never be sure, but hydrogen cars are probably a dead end for a few reasons. Most tellingly, it's a hugely inefficient technology compared to battery electric, so you need factors more electricity generation. 

From a renewable generator (eg wind turbine), you need to compress the hydrogen to very high pressure for storage (very high pressure to overcome the very low density). Big losses.

Then you need to transport around the country. 

Then you need to convert either to electricity (fuel cell) or in a hydrogen ICE direct to mechanical power. More losses - huge if via ICE.

From the VW summary:
"_a hydrogen car consumes two to three times more electricity for the same distance than a battery car_"

https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/new...tery-or-fuel-cell--that-is-the-question.html#


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

harlechjoe said:


> Looking at the photo that appears above your name I can see Edward Elgar with his Sunbeam Bicycle. In its day the Sunbeam was arguably the best bike around and had an enclosure/oil bath encasing the chain. The Sunbeam factory still stands - although repurposed - on the Wolverhampton Ring Road and Elgar's sculpture was made by Jemma Pearson who produced an equally impressive one of Charles Darwin that stands inside the grounds of Shrewsbury school. Bon Velo BrumJim


Thank you. Appropriately for this thread, the photo was taken in Hereford on the day that I went to pick up my second-hand electric car.


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## midlife (14 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> All new builds must come with an EV charging point



I think that only came into building regs 2022


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## classic33 (14 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Nope. I can't see hydrogen power being better than electric power personally. Returning to putting something massively explosive into a car seems counterproductive.


What about filling your (pressurised) tank with propane, or just swapping cylinders?


----------



## farfromtheland (15 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think part of the problem is that politicians and issue groups are driving measures, rather than scientists and engineers.


I think the best way to go for now, and perhaps for the foreseeable, is methane. It is a much cleaner burn than propane/butane 'autogas' and is available from landfill emissions, if we harvest it as we should.

Fiat made a few methane versions of production models in the 90s. A petrol to methane conversion on an existing ICE is probably easier than an autogas install. Methane can enter a combustion engine through the air intake, and doesn't corrode the exhaust valves, as far as I know.


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## ClichéGuevara (15 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I think the best way to go for now, and perhaps for the foreseeable, is methane. It is a much cleaner burn than propane or butane 'autogas' and is available from landfill emissions, if we harvest it as we should.
> 
> Fiat made a few methane versions of production models in the 90s. A petrol to methane conversion on an existing ICE is probably easier than an autogas install. Methane can enter a combustion engine through the air intake, and doesn't corrode the exhaust valves, as far as I know.



I think propane is the cleaner of those you mention, but non-are deemed as climate suitable.


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## farfromtheland (15 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think propane is the cleaner of those you mention, but non-are deemed as climate suitable.


"Compared to other hydrocarbon fuels, methane produces less carbon dioxide for each unit of heat released."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

Also, as a practical example, here it is being used directly by farms. Methane emissions are an environmental problem but burning it can be more of a solution.
https://produceprocessing.net/article/Vegetable-fruit-waste-can-produce-electricity/


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## classic33 (15 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> "Compared to other hydrocarbon fuels, methane produces less carbon dioxide for each unit of heat released."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane
> 
> Also, as a practical example, here it is being used directly by farms. Methane emissions are an environmental problem but burning it can be more of a solution.
> https://produceprocessing.net/article/Vegetable-fruit-waste-can-produce-electricity/


For a small farm one
_"...a plant treating slurries and manure that includes a simple digester and CHP unit could cost in the region of £750,000 – £1m."_

https://birchsolutions.co.uk/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-biogas-plant/

They don't come cheap, and you do not want it siting too close to your house. Especially in warmer weather.


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## farfromtheland (15 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> For a small farm one
> _"...a plant treating slurries and manure that includes a simple digester and CHP unit could cost in the region of £750,000 – £1m."_
> 
> https://birchsolutions.co.uk/how-much-does-it-cost-to-build-a-biogas-plant/
> ...


Well maybe not, but not too far either, for transport costs, and there are worse things. The good side is they can be funded on a scale affordable by communities rather than governments or massive business interests. Methane is a by product of farming whether we like it or not, unlike bio-ethanol which needs crops grown specifically, though its burn is cleaner.

The environmental costs of raw materials are minimal too, compared to wind or solar. Even recycling batteries for power storage and aluminium for wind farms has a carbon footprint that is not costed in by most industrial scale advocates.


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## classic33 (15 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> Well maybe not, but not too far either, for transport costs and there are worse things. The good side is they can be funded on a scale affordable by communities rather than governments or massive business interests.
> 
> The environmental costs of raw materials are minimal too, compared to wind or solar. Even recycling batteries for power storage and aluminium for wind farms has a carbon footprint that is not costed in by most industrial scale advocates.


You've not been near one then?

Do you ever cycle when they're out spreading it? The slurry is free, so long as you have a sufficient herd nearby. If you're keeping them solely for the methane, then factor in the feed, vets fees and where you'll be keeping them.


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2022)

The mould is cast. ICE will be reduced to very special usage. Battery tech is here now, people are literally buying into the technology. 

It would take a monumental announcement, that scientists have sorted the conversion of all ICE to some other cheap, readily available fuel. And its available now.

Apart from diehard petrol heads, electric cars are far nicer, easier to drive than ICE.


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## farfromtheland (15 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> You've not been near one then?
> 
> Do you ever cycle when they're out spreading it? The slurry is free, so long as you have a sufficient herd nearby. If you're keeping them solely for the methane, then factor in the feed, vets fees and where you'll be keeping them.


I am against factory livestock farming for many reasons. Plant waste is also a source of methane, as in the article I linked, as is landfill.

Where livestock is already farmed indoors methane could be produced, but I would be against this on ethical and environmental grounds. I was specifically looking at methane as a byproduct of more sustainable processes.


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## DRM (15 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The mould is cast. ICE will be reduced to very special usage. Battery tech is here now, people are literally buying into the technology.
> 
> It would take a monumental announcement, that scientists have sorted the conversion of all ICE to some other cheap, readily available fuel. And its available now.
> 
> Apart from diehard petrol heads, electric cars are far nicer, easier to drive than ICE.


The general public aren’t buying into EV’s they’re mainly leased company vehicles that the drivers are issued/ordered to save BIK payments, the price is la la land for the ordinary motorists right now


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## cougie uk (15 Jan 2022)

Aren't most new cars leased anyway ? We bought our EV second hand and it wasn't that much more expensive than ICE. 
I reckon our fuel bills are about 1/10th of what they used to be. 



DRM said:


> The general public aren’t buying into EV’s they’re mainly leased company vehicles that the drivers are issued/ordered to save BIK payments, the price is la la land for the ordinary motorists right now


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## DRM (15 Jan 2022)

All the ones I’ve seen pounding the motorways are less than 3 year old repmobiles


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## classic33 (15 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Aren't most new cars leased anyway ? We bought our EV second hand and it wasn't that much more expensive than ICE.
> I reckon our fuel bills are about 1/10th of what they used to be.


What does it cost to charge the car, compared to filling up with petrol?
Assuming you only charge the vehicle where you pay for it.

Bear in mind, the possible difference in mileage from two seperate power systems.


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## cougie uk (15 Jan 2022)

Just over £2 for a full charge (that we hardly ever do - we rarely get that low or need to charge that high).

The range on that is probably 1/3 to 1/4 of the range of our ICE car that has a 55 litre tank. That costs over £80 to fill. 

Our electric tariff is cheap hours after midnight and we can do all our normal recharging then.


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## MrGrumpy (16 Jan 2022)

Reading another thread over on another car forum I frequent . I Pace battery pack if needing replaced is £42k  . Another member had their BMW ( don’t know the model ) 18 month old have the battery replaced under warranty £19k. Scary stuff and im aware these are outliers but geez , as someone mentioned further up , if you can you would lease or PCP as long as in warranty. Scares the life out of me if these batteries jacked in out of warranty . Here’s hoping they get down to cheap as chips.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Aren't most new cars leased anyway ?


Something like over 90% of all car purchases are leased whether private or company


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Jan 2022)

Last night I topped up our Model 3. With cheape electric. Total cost £1.92


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## fossyant (16 Jan 2022)

I've no real need for a car these days - I'm back to cycling to work when in the office, so no need to waste a chunk of cash on a car (purchased or leased) I don't use much. That's the way forward, not more cars. I'll stick with my 20 year old car I've owned since nearly new.

Cycling to work and low use of car is far beter than any electric car. Simple. Electric cars aren't the answer

Leasing a small EV is over £300 and a Tesla nearer £700 per month. That's a lot of money for what ? No need.


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## fossyant (16 Jan 2022)

Here is another, google sent me a summary of my time line for last year. I've actually not travelled outside the North West - furthest was North Wales. At least with lockdown it made us think where and when we sould be making wasteful journies.


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## cougie uk (16 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I've no real need for a car these days - I'm back to cycling to work when in the office, so no need to waste a chunk of cash on a car (purchased or leased) I don't use much. That's the way forward, not more cars. I'll stick with my 20 year old car I've owned since nearly new.
> 
> Cycling to work and low use of car is far beter than any electric car. Simple. Electric cars aren't the answer
> 
> Leasing a small EV is over £300 and a Tesla nearer £700 per month. That's a lot of money for what ? No need.


Oh I completely agree. My work was just over a mile away from home for decades so I walked or ran or cycled. 
My wife's job is all over the place so it would be hard for her to do without. 

Much better without a car if you can !


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## CXRAndy (16 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Here is another, google sent me a summary of my time line for last year. I've actually not travelled outside the North West - furthest was North Wales. At least with lockdown it made us think where and when we sould be making wasteful journies.


You're right regarding car use. We all need to use our vehicles far less, especially for local journeys. Im fortunate not to need to leave my house to conduct business. I do cycle upto the local coop for basics regularly. When we move ove nearest coop will be 8 miles away on flat terrain. Again I or the wife will try and cycle. However when we do go out in our car, we wont be polluting, others from tailpipe emissions. The savings currently are amazing, but these wont last. This is part of our reason to move home. More space to have solar and possibly wind energy


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## Noodle Legs (16 Jan 2022)

I love how they pioneer this as new technology and the future however as a child born in the late 70s and growing up in the 80s I’m pretty sure I can recall milk being delivered in glass bottles on milk floats powered by big chloride bardic batteries…..

I’m not quite convinced by it all just yet as I don’t think the technology is quite there but very curious going forward as to how it pans out. As a worker in one of the electricity distribution companies I’m very curious as to how the infrastructure to support all the charging points and heat pumps is going to be beefed up. I’d be very keen to see how a lot of these houses on terraced streets in large towns and cities with no off road parking are going to go on, particularly when a lot of these streets run on single phase (240v) cables….. and let’s not get started on commercial vehicles! 

I can’t help but think that hydrogen may be a better option if they can get around issues like storing it safely and finding a cheaper and more viable way of extracting it from water as opposed to carbon based gases like methane. If they crack this then it would be a game changer. There would be no environmental impact mining the lithium or what have you for the batteries, I would imagine that the byproduct of burning hydrogen would be water vapour which can then be used to create more hydrogen.

A bit pie in the sky maybe but food for thought.


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## simongt (16 Jan 2022)

Saw a Telsa saloon parked up today and as far as I could make out, there were no 'normal instruments', just a large computer type screen in the centre of the dashboard area. Do I understand that is the new trendy type of instrument panel - ?


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## MrGrumpy (16 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Saw a Telsa saloon parked up today and as far as I could make out, there were no 'normal instruments', just a large computer type screen in the centre of the dashboard area. Do I understand that is the new trendy type of instrument panel - ?


it’s a Tesla thing , some what marmite


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## midlife (16 Jan 2022)

Our petrol mini has no dials, just an lcd screen. I think all new minis are the same.


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## figbat (16 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Our petrol mini has no dials, just an lcd screen. I think all new minis are the same.


Except the ‘screen’ in front of the steering wheel comprises a conventional needle dial on one side, a fixed set of lights on the other with only the speedometer bit in the middle being an actual screen, with (low resolution) graphics on it. It is really quite the disappointment compared to other cars.


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## midlife (16 Jan 2022)

Looks like this.....


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## CXRAndy (16 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Saw a Telsa saloon parked up today and as far as I could make out, there were no 'normal instruments', just a large computer type screen in the centre of the dashboard area. Do I understand that is the new trendy type of instrument panel - ?


It will have been a model 3. In the UK since 2019. It has one large landscape screen to control vast majority of features. The steering wheel has voice control and rotary thumb, toggle controls. It has conventional indicator, drive stalks incorporating wash/wipe features.

Model S has two screens, a very large portrait screen and a LCD driver display.

The 2022 Model S will come with a yoke steering wheel with more features from touch control in the steering wheel.


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## fossyant (16 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> it’s a Tesla thing , some what marmite


You'll find many cars manufacturers are doing this now.


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## figbat (16 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Looks like this.....
> 
> View attachment 626883


Yes, only the central bit is an LCD screen.


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## cougie uk (16 Jan 2022)

Much prefer switches and knobs but this isn't just an electric thing.


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## midlife (16 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Yes, only the central bit is an LCD screen.


 There are 3 lcd panels, the left and right are conventional instruments in design but are simply lit lcd pixels. The whole display is about 5 mm thick and looks a bit odd as it sits where an analogue binnacle should be.


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## figbat (16 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> There are 3 lcd panels, the left and right are conventional instruments in design but are simply lit lcd pixels. The whole display is about 5 mm thick and looks a bit odd as it sits where an analogue binnacle should be.


Nope. The left panel is a real needle. The right panel is fixed elements. Only the central part is a colour LCD.


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## gzoom (17 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Much prefer switches and knobs but this isn't just an electric thing.



The problem with switches and knobs is they can really only have one function and than is limited by factory setup/layout.

Touch screens however offer you pretty much infinite design/usage possibilities. Its like a Pandoras box, once opened you cannot go back.







* “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”*

Tesla started in 2012 with their approach to interior design it was dismissed by many, yet 10 years on Mercedes, the older car manufacturer is all but playing catch up.


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## cougie uk (17 Jan 2022)

gzoom said:


> The problem with switches and knobs is they can really only have one function and than is limited by factory setup/layout.
> 
> Touch screens however offer you pretty much infinite design/usage possibilities. Its like a Pandoras box, once opened you cannot go back.
> 
> ...


It's a lot easier to use a knob or switch without taking your eyes off the road though. Impossible to do that on a touch screen. 

I guess they're using voice control though ?


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## figbat (17 Jan 2022)

gzoom said:


> The problem with switches and knobs is they can really only have one function and than is limited by factory setup/layout.
> 
> Touch screens however offer you pretty much infinite design/usage possibilities. Its like a Pandoras box, once opened you cannot go back.


Agreed, but there are some functions that deserve a switch or button as you want to positively activate them without having to look and without the risk of selecting some other function as the road surface bumps your finger to a different setting. BMW have a decent setup with a touch screen and ALSO a physical input device; you can do all inputs using either input - the iDrive wheel/buttons is far easier to use than the touchscreen if you are familiar with menu layouts etc.

Our Volvo XC40 has a large central touchscreen and even adjusting the cabin temperature requires some well-aimed touches, which can be tricky. Of course the other alternative is voice control, but this is still a bit clunky on most cars I have tried.


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## fossyant (17 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's a lot easier to use a knob or switch without taking your eyes off the road though. Impossible to do that on a touch screen.
> 
> I guess they're using voice control though ?



This - far easier to find stuff by touch than by a screen - touch screens are much more distracting vs buttons. Main controls need to be buttons, other stuff then OK.

SIL is looking to get rid of their small van (used for business so going to be charged £10 a day next year) and looking at new cars. They fancy an electric but looking at deals, it's going to be very expensive for them given that they don't really drive far - one car would be enough.


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## Electric_Andy (17 Jan 2022)

My Passat has a mullti-function screen which I really dislike. It is quite slow. Luckily there are physical knobs for most of the main things, but it displays pictures of the seat when you put the seat warmers on, and pictures of which way you've directed the air when you've put the blowers on. Utterly pointless I think; who needs to look at a screen whilst driving to see which settings you've changed?

What would worry me about higher end EV (and other cars to be honest) is all this voice control; what happens when the system crashes or stops working completely? With a leased car I guess it's not so much of a worry but I'd guess it's easier to fix a switch than it is a whole voice recognitino system. Funny, because haven't they just brought in a law for consumer appliances that requires them to be repaired easier?


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## CXRAndy (17 Jan 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> what happens when the system crashes or stops working completely?


The driving systems are separate from the entertainment, user interface systems. I have for interest, soft booted the Tesla whilst driving. The car drove fine, performed normally, whilst infotainment rebooted.


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## fossyant (17 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The driving systems are separate from the entertainment, user interface systems. I have for interest, soft booted the Tesla whilst driving. The car drove fine, performed normally, whilst infotainment rebooted.



Sounds like the Alfa 147 Selespeed I had. You'd get a system failure, so had to pull over, switch off, switch back on.  All Bosch electrical components, put together with dodgy wires.


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## midlife (17 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Nope. The left panel is a real needle. The right panel is fixed elements. Only the central part is a colour LCD.



I think you are right, Cheeky beggers sold it to us as the same "digital dash" that's on the electric version. !!


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## figbat (17 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> I think you are right, Cheeky beggers sold it to us as the same "digital dash" that's on the electric version. !!


The electric version is the same - I have one! The only difference is that the left-hand (physical) needle is a 'power gauge' rather than a rev counter and the right hand side is remaining battery charge rather than fuel gauge. Only the central part is TFT.


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## icowden (17 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> This - far easier to find stuff by touch than by a screen - touch screens are much more distracting vs buttons. Main controls need to be buttons, other stuff then OK.
> 
> SIL is looking to get rid of their small van (used for business so going to be charged £10 a day next year) and looking at new cars. They fancy an electric but looking at deals, it's going to be very expensive for them given that they don't really drive far - one car would be enough.


I think you may be missing a bit. If you are driving you can just ask the car to do it for you. In the ID4 for example "Hello ID - Make it warmer". Tesla does the same.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> The electric version is the same - I have one! The only difference is that the left-hand (physical) needle is a 'power gauge' rather than a rev counter and the right hand side is remaining battery charge rather than fuel gauge. Only the central part is TFT.


The wife’s E Class Cab has the option to switch displays. It’s got an EV option which I use when I wear my sandals


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## fossyant (17 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> I think you may be missing a bit. If you are driving you can just ask the car to do it for you. In the ID4 for example "Hello ID - Make it warmer". Tesla does the same.


It's quicker to twiddle the heater button.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (18 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> It's quicker to twiddle the heater button.


I generally just leave the heating set at 21 degrees on Auto setting on both our cars, and the previous Discovery. First thing, I may have to have it on defrost, but one button press and it goes back to the normal setting. If really cold in the wife's MINI (car not skirt), I may prod the heater seat button a couple of times to switch it to medium toasting level. The Caravelle doesn't have heated seats, and the heater control valve on the Elise is very sticky, so maybe I'm just not as picky as some about temperature?


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## fossyant (18 Jan 2022)

If you've a nephew like mine, or a young child, they soon get the hang of Alexa. My nephew seems to like Smooth Radio, so he's always telling Alexa to play that station or other music, and he's only 3. Now letting a 3 year old control the car, or even play Baby Shark is way too much.


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## cougie uk (18 Jan 2022)

What 3 year olds like smooth radio ? Old before his time.


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## BrumJim (18 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What 3 year olds like smooth radio ? Old before his time.


3 year olds like the strangest things. Mine was really into Johnny Cash.


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## icowden (18 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> If you've a nephew like mine, or a young child, they soon get the hang of Alexa. My nephew seems to like Smooth Radio, so he's always telling Alexa to play that station or other music, and he's only 3. Now letting a 3 year old control the car, or even play Baby Shark is way too much.


I set up my in-laws Alexa on my last visit amidst some "i'll never work out how to use it".
My 6 year old niece gave them a tutorial... !


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## KnittyNorah (18 Jan 2022)

Can I ask what is probably a very simple Q? If a vehicle has voice control for certain functions, does it only respond to the driver's voice - or does it respond to whoever in the car speaks first, or loudest, or with the most-easily-recognised accent?


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## icowden (18 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Can I ask what is probably a very simple Q? If a vehicle has voice control for certain functions, does it only respond to the driver's voice - or does it respond to whoever in the car speaks first, or loudest, or with the most-easily-recognised accent?


For the ID3 and 4, there is a button on the steering wheel to activate voice assist, or you say "Hello ID". If speaking, then the car will show lighting by the person who it is going to take the command from. So if the passenger says it, they will get some subtle mood lighting and then be able to issue the command.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Can I ask what is probably a very simple Q? If a vehicle has voice control for certain functions, does it only respond to the driver's voice - or does it respond to whoever in the car speaks first, or loudest, or with the most-easily-recognised accent?


It’s bit like this for me  I absolutely detest voice recognition, horrible .


View: https://youtu.be/sAz_UvnUeuU


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## KnittyNorah (18 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s bit like this for me  I absolutely detest voice recognition, horrible .
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/sAz_UvnUeuU



I totally understand! 
When I lived in Australia, in the first decade of this century, there was voice recognition for directory enquiries and WHO or WHAT accent it was supposed to understand, I never did find out. Not did anyone else I knew, be they born Aussie, Kiwi, Indian, Zimbabwean, Bangladeshi, Irish, Tongan ...


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## cougie uk (18 Jan 2022)

Voice recognition is really good now. Alexa is excellent in our house.


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## figbat (18 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Voice recognition is really good now. Alexa is excellent in our house.


Agreed…. for Google, Apple, Amazon etc but car systems that don’t use these are still tricky, not only in terms of their recognition but in terms of their interpretation of requests. With Alexa you can be quite vague and she’ll get your gist. The car demands that you say the right thing, addressing the correct radio name or contact line number or whatever, and use only the commands it specified.

Example in my car, you can’t “stop navigation” or “cancel sat nav”, you have to call it “route guidance”. Alexa would figure it out.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Jan 2022)

it’s just something else to concentrate on whilst driving along. It’s far easier to press a button or turn a dial IMO. I don’t even use Siri on my phone. I just find it weird taking to a machine/computer . Never had myself down as a Luddite  but maybe I am


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## icowden (18 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> it’s just something else to concentrate on whilst driving along. It’s far easier to press a button or turn a dial IMO. I don’t even use Siri on my phone. I just find it weird taking to a machine/computer . Never had myself down as a Luddite  but maybe I am


The flip side is that currently I have to take my hand off the wheel and press a button to choose radio station, or turn 3 different dials to adjust the heating.
I don't need to do that if I can ask the car to play Magic Radio or set the air to 24 degrees and aim it at my feet etc...


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## MrGrumpy (18 Jan 2022)

I set temp and let climate control do it’s thing  . Helps having auto heated windscreen and rear as well . I rarely have to touch anything other than change radio station


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## simongt (19 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> it’s a Tesla thing , some what marmite


What seemed offputting was that the driver has to look at the centre of the console to see the screen thus taking their eyes off the road for longer than if the dials are directly in front.


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## icowden (19 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> What seemed offputting was that the driver has to look at the centre of the console to see the screen thus taking their eyes off the road for longer than if the dials are directly in front.


You still have a small amount of key info in front of you (speed, camera sensors view etc) if you are in an S or X. The 3 and Y don't get an instrument cluster. This is apparently due to Elon's target that these cars will be driving themselves rather than being driven. Some say that it is less distracting and gives better road vision as there is no instrument cluster glare. There are some aftermarket solutions but they tend to be in an arms race with tesla software releases as they are not officially supported.


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## CXRAndy (19 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> You still have a small amount of key info in front of you (speed, camera sensors view etc) if you are in an S or X


The S/X have quite a lot of information in the driver display. It can be altered to display different features. You can if you want scroll for phone numbers with the buttons or just press voice prompt key.


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## cougie uk (19 Jan 2022)

When are we getting the alerts that go off when you're over the speed limit anyway ? I'm looking forward to that.


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## CXRAndy (19 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> When are we getting the alerts that go off when you're over the speed limit anyway ? I'm looking forward to that.


You can set speed limit on Tesla.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (20 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> You can set speed limit on Tesla.


I can set the speed limit on the F54 MINI Clubman. It does limit the speed and provides a warning. I'm using it increasingly in town and in roadworks areas with 50mph limits.


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## figbat (20 Jan 2022)

I’ve had a few cars with speed limiters but they have all been optional and user-programmable (ie, you set the speed limit rather than it being the speed limit of the road you are on). My current car has “speed limit assist” where it reads speed limit signs and, if enabled, will warn you if you are exceeding it.


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## CXRAndy (20 Jan 2022)

I mean I can log into a moving car and limit its top speed, whilst sat at home


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## Alex321 (20 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> You can set speed limit on Tesla.


Every car I have had with cruise control also has a speed limit option - but not tied to the road, you set it yourself.


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## fossyant (20 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Every car I have had with cruise control also has a speed limit option - but not tied to the road, you set it yourself.



All cars have speed limiters, even Model T's, it's called your right foot.  You shouldn't need a computer to do that.


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## Alex321 (20 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> All cars have speed limiters, even Model T's, it's called your right foot.  You shouldn't need a computer to do that.


True. And I never actually use it.


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## Milkfloat (20 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> All cars have speed limiters, even Model T's, it's called your right foot.  You shouldn't need a computer to do that.


Slightly pedantic I know, but, the Model T has a hand throttle, you don't use your foot


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## fossyant (20 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Slightly pedantic I know, but, the Model T has a hand throttle, you don't use your foot



There is always one.


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## mistyoptic (20 Jan 2022)

This seems a suitable point for this


View: https://youtu.be/0HugGCoK7m0


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## Gillstay (20 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Slightly pedantic I know, but, the Model T has a hand throttle, you don't use your foot


I rode in one with Bud Ekins and his had a foot throttle !


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## simongt (21 Jan 2022)

Speed limit controllers - ? 
Back in t'day, we were taught to pay regular attention to a thing called a speedometer - !


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## cougie uk (21 Jan 2022)

simongt said:


> Speed limit controllers - ?
> Back in t'day, we were taught to pay regular attention to a thing called a speedometer - !


Never worked then either ?


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## simongt (21 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Never worked then either ?


Yup. The number of times I've heard the excuse when someone is nabbed for speeding being 'I didn't realise how fast I was going' or 'I didn't know the car was that powerful' etc., etc.. 
One can be forgiven for inferring that the offenders cars didn't have speedometers fitted - !
I check my speedometer probably about once a minute depending on driving condidtions. Eyes down, eyes back up; must take at least a second - !


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## Milkfloat (21 Jan 2022)

Gillstay said:


> I rode in one with Bud Ekins and his had a foot throttle !


I have never seen one that does, the 3 pedals are for brake, reverse and change high/low gear.


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## Chromatic (24 Jan 2022)

VW engineers prepare for 2030.


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## CXRAndy (24 Jan 2022)

Most legacy car manufacturers aren't really designing new EVs. They are using traditional chassis design with motor mounted where an ICE was. Wasting the opportunity for a flat floor instead of having a central tunnel.


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## icowden (25 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Most legacy car manufacturers aren't really designing new EVs. They are using traditional chassis design with motor mounted where an ICE was. Wasting the opportunity for a flat floor instead of having a central tunnel.


To be fair, most of them are using this-





The MEB is used by VW, Skoda, Audi, Seat and a new deal has Ford possibly using it too. I agree with you that many BEVs are just the ICE car with a battery shoved in.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (25 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> To be fair, most of them are using this-
> 
> View attachment 628105
> 
> The MEB is used by VW, Skoda, Audi, Seat and a new deal has Ford possibly using it too. I agree with you that many BEVs are just the ICE car with a battery shoved in.


I think the Ford use may be for the Ford variant of the VW Transporter/Caravelle/Microbus replacement which will be a BEV


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## Richard A Thackeray (27 Jan 2022)

One of the letters in the new edition of ‘Viz’
Issue 312 (February)


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## Richard A Thackeray (27 Jan 2022)

There’s a novel idea in this months _’Viz’_


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> There’s a novel idea in this months _’Viz’_
> 
> View attachment 628478


Not far off what they're experimenting with.


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## Richard A Thackeray (28 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Not far off what they're experimenting with


As in an 'induction' system?

Plus there's the 'Trolley Bus' (style) HGV trials on sections of the M180


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## Richard A Thackeray (28 Jan 2022)

@cougie uk 

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/classic-trucks-wagons.253943/page-14#post-6610161
https://www.csrf.ac.uk/events/virtual-tour-of-elisa-ehighway-project/


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

Yes I've seen that. Can't see that being a goer. 

There are charging pads available that can charge a car parked overhead. No cables needed. Not sure how efficient they are at present but they could be part of the solution.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

Still think hydrogen fuel cells have big part to play in the future it’s pretty clear right now that EVs are limited due to range. Anyone I’ve spoken too who has one mentions it. It’s a fact and it’s not going away anytime soon. This will be played out as we move forward over the next few years.


View: https://youtu.be/O6QGfmgPWFM


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Still think hydrogen fuel cells have big part to play in the future it’s pretty clear right now that EVs are limited due to range. Anyone I’ve spoken too who has one mentions it. It’s a fact and it’s not going away anytime soon. This will be played out as we move forward over the next few years.


How many times do we need to explain this ?
You use far more electric getting the hydrogen. So it's going to be more expensive than charging your car. 
Then on top of that you have to set up a network of hydrogen filling stations. 
How much range do you need ? 
We do need more chargers at service stations - but that's easier than creating a hydrogen garage network. 

Just plug the car in when you go for a wee on a journey - come back and your range has increased. Fraction of the cost of petrol. No hanging around in the cold pumping petrol.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How many times do we need to explain this ?
> You use far more electric getting the hydrogen. So it's going to be more expensive than charging your car.
> Then on top of that you have to set up a network of hydrogen filling stations.
> How much range do you need ?
> ...


Don’t tell me tell the auto industry. EVs are a half way house. Everything about an EV is a compromise the only good thing is the fuel cost saving to the end user . That’s it !!!


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## roubaixtuesday (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> the only good thing is the fuel cost saving to the end user



Well, there's the end of air pollution from vehicles. But other than that, what have EVs done for us [series to run....]


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Well, there's the end of air pollution from vehicles. But other than that, what have EVs done for us [series to run....]


Tail pipe emissions for EVs of course are clean , however hydrogen might be even cleaner still if using renewables ?! All to play for


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Don’t tell me tell the auto industry. EVs are a half way house. Everything about an EV is a compromise the only good thing is the fuel cost saving to the end user . That’s it !!!


So why aren't the auto industry churning out dozens of models of hydrogen cars ??

Range is not an issue for the vast majority of users. How far is your commute ?


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Tail pipe emissions for EVs of course are clean , however hydrogen might be even cleaner still if using renewables ?! All to play for


How can hydrogen be cleaner ? It uses lots more energy than electric. You use energy to go to the garage to refuel. What transports the gas around the country ? Tankers presumably ?


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## icowden (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Still think hydrogen fuel cells have big part to play in the future it’s pretty clear right now that EVs are limited due to range.


ICE cars are limited due to range. Mine will only do about 400 miles on a full tank. I'm anxious. I have to drive around looking for these things called petrol stations. My car doesn't even tell me where they are!!

Luckily soon I'll be getting an EV that does close to 300 miles in range, is always full every morning that I am at home, and tells me where the nearest charger is. Plus I'm not riding round on a huge amount of explosive liquid and I'm not emitting harmful gasses.

Can't wait!


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Don’t tell me tell the auto industry. EVs are a half way house. Everything about an EV is a compromise the only good thing is the fuel cost saving to the end user . That’s it !!!


The stations/filling points are there. Not many, but they do exist.
https://www.drivingelectric.com/hyd...-where-is-my-nearest-hydrogen-filling-station


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> The stations/filling points are there. Not many, but they do exist.
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/hyd...-where-is-my-nearest-hydrogen-filling-station


Yep not many yet for sure !


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## Illaveago (28 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How can hydrogen be cleaner ? It uses lots more energy than electric. You use energy to go to the garage to refuel. What transports the gas around the country ? Tankers presumably ?


How do you get your electricity ? Not all is green . Some are nuclear , some are diesel powered , some are even made from burning waste . There are waste disposal power generating sites being built in this area to get rid of waste generated in London ! All of the contractor vehicles are burning fossil fuels . How does the waste get to those sites? Most likely by an internal combustion engines vehicle !


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## icowden (28 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> The stations/filling points are there. Not many, but they do exist.
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/hyd...-where-is-my-nearest-hydrogen-filling-station


So lets compare...

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/

There are now 29,000 devices in 18000 locations.

Now hydrogen. I couldn't find anything about growth. I did find this article from 2021 which states there are 14 places to refuel on hydrogen, all in the South of England.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/why-more-uk-drivers-could-soon-be-choosing-hydrogen-powered-cars/n23385

Of course there are now over 1000 hydrogen powered cars across Europe, where as 800,000 electric vehicles were registered in the last year alone.

So - who is betting on Hydrogen here? I'm thinking it's the betamax of cars...


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep not many yet for sure !


And you fill up in a similar manner to petrol or diesel.
There's a few manufacturers with hydrogen power on the drawing board.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

yep  let’s see what the future brings , it’s not all battery powered!


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> So lets compare...
> 
> https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
> 
> ...


If hydrogen is the betamax, are electric cars the VHS2000?
Plenty poured into them, but where did it go?

A similar point was made about electric powered vehicles, years ago. Lack of charging points, against the ease of filling a petrol tank.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> So lets compare...
> 
> https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
> 
> ...


Cost is high for sure but so were EVs comparatively in the early days. Put it this way fuel cells have not gone away from what I can see on the net.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> ICE cars are limited due to range. Mine will only do about 400 miles on a full tank. I'm anxious. I have to drive around looking for these things called petrol stations. My car doesn't even tell me where they are!!



You have sh..t car if it doesn’t even guide you to a fuel station  . Even my old bus can do that 


icowden said:


> Luckily soon I'll be getting an EV that does close to 300 miles in range, is always full every morning that I am at home, and tells me where the nearest charger is. Plus I'm not riding round on a huge amount of explosive liquid and I'm not emitting harmful gasses.
> 
> Can't wait!


It either does 300 miles or it doesn’t !


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## TheDoctor (28 Jan 2022)

I expect the range will vary according to how you drive it, headwinds, hills, weather etc. Just like any other car...


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## icowden (28 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> You have sh..t car if it doesn’t even guide you to a fuel station  . Even my old bus can do that


So your bus, as soon as it is nearing empty, calculates how much range you have left and directs you to the nearest station with an available pump?
Very impressive!

Mine just makes a warning sound. You can spend 5 minutes tinkering with the satnav to try and find a petrol station and hope it is still there I suppose. But it's not the same.


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> The stations/filling points are there. Not many, but they do exist.
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/hyd...-where-is-my-nearest-hydrogen-filling-station


There's more ev chargers in walking distance of my house than there are hydrogen filling stations in the country.


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## cougie uk (28 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> If hydrogen is the betamax, are electric cars the VHS2000?
> Plenty poured into them, but where did it go?
> 
> A similar point was made about electric powered vehicles, years ago. Lack of charging points, against the ease of filling a petrol tank.


I don't recall anyone I knew having a VHS2000 back in the day. I do know of three EVs in the family now and I've only bought one.


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## KnittyNorah (28 Jan 2022)

Well given that the navy has nuclear powered submarines, I think I'll put my name on the waiting list for a nuclear-powered car ...


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> There's more ev chargers in walking distance of my house than there are hydrogen filling stations in the country.


Nothing new there. Charging points* were scarce at one point.

According to zap-map there's two, on a street that doesn't exist. Others are doubled up depending on which direction you approach them from. Using the street postcode.

All just outside the three mile range, with some private dealerships, not accessible once they close. 

I'm glad I don't drive. 


*Public accessible charging points.


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Well given that the navy has nuclear powered submarines, I think I'll put my name on the waiting list for a nuclear-powered car ...


This one?
https://eurasiantimes.com/inside-a-...ould-travel-a-whopping-8000-km-at-one-go/?amp


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## figbat (28 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Well given that the navy has nuclear powered submarines, I think I'll put my name on the waiting list for a nuclear-powered car ...


Nuclear submarines are electrically driven. They just take the power station with them.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Nuclear submarines are electrically driven. They just take the power station with them.


Range is decent


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## KnittyNorah (28 Jan 2022)

I rather fancy the Astral; I like the gyroscope concept and I could drive it along the canal as well as on the roads. 

I was thinking today, as I pedalled along the canal towpath and watched the swan gliding serenely along knowing that under the water its legs and feet were going like billy-oh, why aren't there more efficient ways of travelling on water using human power? 
Yes I know there is rowing your boat and paddling your own canoe (or kayak!) - sailing being impractical on a canal - but those are rather wet, splashy and primitive. I picture something vaguely like a recumbent but in a boat, and while you sit in comfort, warm and dry in a nice enclosed capsule/cockpit, coffee by your side, you are cranking quite gently on pedals which drive a paddlewheel or propeller (or something else - I know very little about efficient propulsion in water), well-shielded from the driver/rider/boater so there's no chance of getting wet.


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## KnittyNorah (28 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Nuclear submarines are electrically driven. They just take the power station with them.


Yes I know, I worked in radiation physics almost all of my professional life. I want a desktop sized reactor then I can take MY power station with ME, none of that daft plugging in and waiting for the batteries to charge. In fact, I would offer plug-in-and-charge facilities (at an exorbitant rate, of course) for those unfortunates whose bog-standard EVs run out of charge in the middle of their journey; after all I'll have to do _something_ with all that excess energy I'm generating from my uranium pellets ...


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## classic33 (28 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I rather fancy the Astral; I like the gyroscope concept and I could drive it along the canal as well as on the roads.
> 
> I was thinking today, as I pedalled along the canal towpath and watched the swan gliding serenely along knowing that under the water its legs and feet were going like billy-oh, why aren't there more efficient ways of travelling on water using human power?
> Yes I know there is rowing your boat and paddling your own canoe (or kayak!) - sailing being impractical on a canal - but those are rather wet, splashy and primitive. I picture something vaguely like a recumbent but in a boat, and while you sit in comfort, warm and dry in a nice enclosed capsule/cockpit, coffee by your side, you are cranking quite gently on pedals which drive a paddlewheel or propeller (or something else - I know very little about efficient propulsion in water), well-shielded from the driver/rider/boater so there's no chance of getting wet.





KnittyNorah said:


> I rather fancy the Astral; I like the gyroscope concept and I could drive it along the canal as well as on the roads.
> 
> I was thinking today, as I pedalled along the canal towpath and watched the swan gliding serenely along knowing that under the water its legs and feet were going like billy-oh, why aren't there more efficient ways of travelling on water using human power?
> Yes I know there is rowing your boat and paddling your own canoe (or kayak!) - sailing being impractical on a canal - but those are rather wet, splashy and primitive. I picture something vaguely like a recumbent but in a boat, and while you sit in comfort, warm and dry in a nice enclosed capsule/cockpit, coffee by your side, you are cranking quite gently on pedals which drive a paddlewheel or propeller (or something else - I know very little about efficient propulsion in water), well-shielded from the driver/rider/boater so there's no chance of getting wet.


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## KnittyNorah (28 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> View attachment 628656


What's that? A Cataracycle? Or a Pedalamaran? I think we've gone off track from EVs here and maybe should start a new thread or we'll get our wrists slapped!


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## classic33 (29 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> What's that? A Cataracycle? Or a Pedalamaran? I think we've gone off track from EVs here and maybe should start a new thread or we'll get our wrists slapped!


He put all his batteries in the right hand canoe, it's why he's leaning.


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## gzoom (29 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> The stations/filling points are there. Not many, but they do exist.
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/hyd...-where-is-my-nearest-hydrogen-filling-station



Your link is not useful as it doesn't tell you about access or supply. The reality is there is around 6(six) hydrogen fuel stations open to the public in the whole of the UK. That number is currently DROPPING as there are hardly any hydrogen cars around.

http://www.ukh2mobility.co.uk/stations/


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## gzoom (29 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> A similar point was made about electric powered vehicles, years ago. Lack of charging points, against the ease of filling a petrol tank.



California has the largest functioning hydrogen fuel stations in the world along with the largest number of hydrogen cars. 

Read about how things are going.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2021-08-10/hydrogen-highway-or-highway-to-nowhere

The reason EV charge points are relatively easy to install is because electricity is literally everywhere. Even a petrol stations needs a electricity supply to work, so adding chargers is more an issue of grid access than anything else.

Hydrogen however has zero infrastructure. Each stations costs roughly £1 million to build due to the high pressure (5000-10,000PSI) the fuel is stored at, and all the safety gear needed. You than have to fund the transport of hydrogen to the site and maintenance of the equipment.

EV rapid chargers on the other hand cost £50k each, and once connected to the grid has no on going logestic costs. There is some maintenance costs but compared a hydrogen fuel stations its peanuts.

Hydrogen as a fuel for passenger cars is already dead, it died a long time ago. The only real hope was the likes of Shell/BP would invest massively in developing a hydrogen network to save their own business plans.......but it looks like the numbers are showing something very different. BP is already making a profit from EV charging, and Shell has just built its first EV only service station. If in the next 12 months Shell and BP can make the numbers balance on a big scale for EV charging, it really is game over for hydrogen fuel cell passenger cars.

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...overtake-pumps-profitability-race-2022-01-14/


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## Richard A Thackeray (29 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Just plug the car in when you go for a wee on a journey - come back and your range has increased. Fraction of the cost of petrol. No hanging around in the cold pumping petrol.


 Fractions for now

As duty revenue from petrol/diesel drops, pricing has to increase to replace those losses 

The duty on a litre of diesel/petrol is just under 57p/litre (then there's the VAT too at 20%)

The rebate on 'red diesel' stops soon too! (currently 19p/litre duty), so there's a race to get hauliers onto electric fridge units to save the fuel costs


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## MrGrumpy (29 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Fractions for now
> 
> As duty revenue from petrol/diesel drops, pricing has to increase to replace those losses
> 
> ...



Taxes and death two guarantees in life


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## cougie uk (29 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Fractions for now
> 
> As duty revenue from petrol/diesel drops, pricing has to increase to replace those losses
> 
> ...



I'd be mad to pay 10 times the fuel cost though now. 
We all know it will cost more in the future but in the meantime...


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## cougie uk (29 Jan 2022)

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...and-energy/why-hydrogen-no-longer-fuel-future

Come on hydrogen fans - put your money where your mouth is. A whole 12 hydrogen cars bought last year - you could make a significant improvement on the figures if you all bought one.


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## gzoom (29 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...and-energy/why-hydrogen-no-longer-fuel-future
> 
> Come on hydrogen fans - put your money where your mouth is. A whole 12 hydrogen cars bought last year - you could make a significant improvement on the figures if you all bought one.



That says it all really doesn't it. If people love hydrogen so much, and its so much better than battery EVs why aren't people buying them.

12 cars sold for a whole 12 months, its more than dead end technology, Toyota must be losing £££££££ on each on sold!


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## Richard A Thackeray (29 Jan 2022)

Catch 22

No infrastructure for hydrogen, so no-one buys a car
No building of a hydrogen infrastructure, until enough vehicles bought?


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## cougie uk (29 Jan 2022)

But SO many fans on here that say they're the future ??


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## icowden (29 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> If hydrogen is the betamax, are electric cars the VHS2000?
> Plenty poured into them, but where did it go?


Nobody bought them. They were too busy buying Betamax and VHS. You only have to look at the speed of growth of BEV purchases to see that they are not a flash in the pan.


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## FishFright (29 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Still think hydrogen fuel cells have big part to play in the future it’s pretty clear right now that EVs are limited due to range. Anyone I’ve spoken too who has one mentions it. It’s a fact and it’s not going away anytime soon. This will be played out as we move forward over the next few years.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/O6QGfmgPWFM




The main problem with hydrogen is the amount of energy required to produce and transport it .


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## icowden (29 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> The main problem with hydrogen is the amount of energy required to produce and transport it .


Not to mention hydrogen goes boom... 🔥🔥🔥🔥


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## classic33 (29 Jan 2022)

icowden said:


> Not to mention hydrogen goes boom... 🔥🔥🔥🔥


As does petrol and LPG/FuelGas. 
Petrol seems to have caught on though


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## gzoom (29 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> The main problem with hydrogen is the amount of energy required to produce and transport it .



Then to compress it to a crazy level and finally use it. 

Its dead end tech, am not sure why anyone even mentions it any more given the total lack of consumer demand for it or usage?


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## nickyboy (29 Jan 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Fractions for now
> 
> As duty revenue from petrol/diesel drops, pricing has to increase to replace those losses
> 
> ...


This is why I'm a relatively early adopter, PHEV is on order and my charging point was installed this week.

I anticipate the costs of running an EV will increase as the tax take lost on conventional fuela will be moved to electric. But I expect this will take a number of years and in the meantime the costs of running electric will be cheap


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## midlife (29 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> This is why I'm a relatively early adopter, PHEV is on order and my charging point was installed this week.
> 
> I anticipate the costs of running an EV will increase as the tax take lost on conventional fuela will be moved to electric. But I expect this will take a number of years and in the meantime the costs of running electric will be cheap



Just curious why you went for something with an internal combustion engine in it?


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## CXRAndy (29 Jan 2022)

As others have said, it takes 50kW of electricity to make 1kg of liquid hydrogen from electrolysis. This is presumably from green electricity. There is very little 'green' Hydrogen currently.

The vast majority of Hydrogen is split from Steam Methane Reforming. A process which releases massive amounts of C02 and is reliant on fossil fuel supplies 

Hardly a green solution. 

Until green methods that are significantly cheaper to produce Hydrogen it's a non goner.

The ship has sailed and BEV are now the transport for the immediate future. 

Like I've said before, it will take a monumental discovery to shipwreck the BEV adoption


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## roubaixtuesday (29 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> As others have said, it takes 50kW of electricity to make 1kg of liquid hydrogen from electrolysis. This is presumably from green electricity. There is very little 'green' Hydrogen currently.
> 
> The vast majority of Hydrogen is split from Steam Methane Reforming. A process which releases massive amounts of C02 and is reliant on fossil fuel supplies
> 
> ...



Fully agree, just an observation to add that hydrogen in cars is AIUI, used as a compressed gas, not a liquid. Avoiding cryogenics. 

Not sure about transport from central generation facilities, is that liquid?


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## nickyboy (29 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Just curious why you went for something with an internal combustion engine in it?


About 80% of the mileage we do will be covered by the EV part. For the other 20% the charging infrastructure isn't sufficiently welll developed yet to make these miles as convenient as a conventionally fuelled vehicle. When it is (probably when my 4 year lease expires) I'll get an EV rather than PHEV


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## midlife (29 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> About 80% of the mileage we do will be covered by the EV part. For the other 20% the charging infrastructure isn't sufficiently welll developed yet to make these miles as convenient as a conventionally fuelled vehicle. When it is (probably when my 4 year lease expires) I'll get an EV rather than PHEV



Tesla model S, BMW jobbies and others do 300 miles plus so why not just get an EV?


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## CXRAndy (30 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Tesla model S, BMW jobbies and others do 300 miles plus so why not just get an EV?


So does Model 3 long range, Model Y long range. 

There is no inconvenience to running an EV. The only issue for those who can afford is reluctance to change.

For anyone who are driving 200+ mile trips, that is a 4+hour drive. Its not clever or physically good to drive that far and not have a break.

Here is a perfect example why EVs are no barrier to long trips.

My daughter has never driven our Model 3 LR. She wanted to travel to Edinburgh, a trip of around 300 miles from where we live. Having never used the Tesla supercharging network, she drove approx 150 miles to first supercharger, had a break and let the car fill back up to 90%. She then visited a sightseeing spot on the way up, arrived in Edinburgh late afternoon. They popped in Tesla, filled again and went to their hotel for a week. They didn't use the car at all whilst there. On their return, they collected a relative from Newcastle, charged to 95% and completed the return home without needing to charge. They did have small comfort break part way. 

As far as I can see that would be the same for a ICE vehicle. 

I've made half a dozen 200+ mile trips since Christmas, I've charged from home before and not needed to charge during the trips.


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## MrGrumpy (30 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Tesla model S, BMW jobbies and others do 300 miles plus so why not just get an EV?



There are options but some are silly prices . 

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/longest-range-electric-cars-ev/


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## figbat (30 Jan 2022)

Whilst I am an EV advocate, I will concede that unlike ICE cars, with EVs you have to pay extra for more range. An ICE car’s ‘range’ is not really a selling feature so is not a chargeable upgrade. With ICEs though you pay extra for acceleration - EVs generally already have acceleration.


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## nickyboy (30 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Tesla model S, BMW jobbies and others do 300 miles plus so why not just get an EV?


The type of vehicle I wanted did not have a high range EV option. Whilst the ranges were OK it would have impacted the 20% longer distance driving mileage we do. 
For example we have two Airbnb breaks booked in rural locations. No meaningful charging infrastructure there so I would have to hope to charge at the residence with conventional non 7kwhr source and that is not acceptable.


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## ClichéGuevara (30 Jan 2022)

I think that rather than the range, for many people, the cost of the vehicle is the limiting factor, and will remain so until the fleet market vehicles become more prominent in the second hand market, which should then push the third, fourth hand and beyond towards the price bracket of most people.

Reading comments on various topics, and I don't think some posters realise that they are among quite a wealthy elite.


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## midlife (30 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> The type of vehicle I wanted did not have a high range EV option. Whilst the ranges were OK it would have impacted the 20% longer distance driving mileage we do.
> For example we have two Airbnb breaks booked in rural locations. No meaningful charging infrastructure there so I would have to hope to charge at the residence with conventional non 7kwhr source and that is not acceptable.



I presume its something like a mitsubishi outlander? Just seems counter intuitive to drive a hybrid on electric for 80% of the time lugging a heavy ICE engine and fuel tank.


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## icowden (30 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think that rather than the range, for many people, the cost of the vehicle is the limiting factor, and will remain so until the fleet market vehicles become more prominent in the second hand market, which should then push the third, fourth hand and beyond towards the price bracket of most people.
> 
> Reading comments on various topics, and I don't think some posters realise that they are among quite a wealthy elite.


Nope - I entirely agree with you. They are *very* expensive at the moment unless you want something very small with limited range. The BiL has a Rav4 , and is about to switch to a new car on his PCP plan. Of course Toyota's BEV isn't out yet, and it's unclear just how much more expensive it will be - plus the best part of a grand on the home charger....


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## CXRAndy (30 Jan 2022)

nickyboy said:


> No meaningful charging infrastructure there so I would have to hope to charge at the residence with conventional non 7kwhr source and that is not acceptable.


Why not use an extension cord. Its around 6-8 miles per hour charge on a 8-10 Amp supply. 10 hours 80 mile range whilst the vehicle is parked. 

I charged my Model S with 100kW battery on a tent camp site. We didn't use the car for a couple of days whilst we cycled and visited the local sites. We then went further a field in the car. Parked again for a couple more days and drove home fully charged. All from a tent site.


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## cyberknight (30 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think that rather than the range, for many people, the cost of the vehicle is the limiting factor, and will remain so until the fleet market vehicles become more prominent in the second hand market, which should then push the third, fourth hand and beyond towards the price bracket of most people.
> 
> Reading comments on various topics, and I don't think some posters realise that they are among quite a wealthy elite.


indeed 64 plate car here and cant afford to replace it with a newer second hand car let alone an EV


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## cougie uk (30 Jan 2022)

cyberknight said:


> indeed 64 plate car here and cant afford to replace it with a newer second hand car let alone an EV


We do have a good few years before they won't be allowed to sell new petrol cars though. Plenty of time for EVs to get cheaper and for more to be available second hand. 

With advances in self driving cars it might even make sense for some households to be without a car completely and just hire a self driving car in the next ten years or so.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (31 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Tail pipe emissions for EVs of course are clean , however hydrogen might be even cleaner still if using renewables ?! All to play for


The Green Energy project at Methil has never produced sufficient hydrogen for the small fleet of dual-fuel vehicles that Fife Council invested in.


MrGrumpy said:


> Range is decent


However, the residual waste is problematic. There's a load of it sitting rusting away in Rosyth by all accounts



icowden said:


> Not to mention hydrogen goes boom... 🔥🔥🔥🔥


Not as readily as petrol. If hydrogen escapes, it rises upwards very rapidly, mixing with the atmosphere. If petrol escapes it flows down, and releases flammable vapour.


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## figbat (31 Jan 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Not as readily as petrol. If hydrogen escapes, it rises upwards very rapidly, mixing with the atmosphere. If petrol escapes it flows down, and releases flammable vapour.


...and sits as a reservoir of continually-available flammable material until it is all gone, whereas hydrogen will go off with a squeaky pop (chemistry nerds will know) once it has popped it's gone.


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## icowden (31 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> ...and sits as a reservoir of continually-available flammable material until it is all gone, whereas hydrogen will go off with a squeaky pop (chemistry nerds will know) once it has popped it's gone.


Yeah - but the pop can be quite something...


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## roubaixtuesday (31 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> ...and sits as a reservoir of continually-available flammable material until it is all gone, whereas hydrogen will go off with a squeaky pop (chemistry nerds will know) once it has popped it's gone.



Hydrogen detonates readily, has a very wide flammable range and is so sensitive to ignition it requires special precautions to handle safely, over and above normally flammable substance like petrol. It also needs to be handled in very high pressure systems to compress it sufficient to get the energy density required for storage 

A detonation is *not* merely a squeaky pop. Detonation is *far* more damaging than deflagration.

As others posted above, some of the characteristics of petrol are also highly hazardous, but for different reasons.


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## icowden (31 Jan 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> As others posted above, some of the characteristics of petrol are also highly hazardous, but for different reasons.


It's worth saying of course, that BEV batteries can also catch fire, but it seems to be fairly rare and the burn is slow rather than explosive. BEVs don't explode.

The NHSTA in the USA concluded that :


> Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, [this] report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation



Useful reader here for those worried:
https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/goverment-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/


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## MrGrumpy (31 Jan 2022)

Toyoto are not letting it go it would seem.

https://techcrunch.com/2021/05/10/t...eos-to-explore-a-hydrogen-powered-woven-city/

I also read somewhere else about large plant machinery being powered by fuel cells. Fairly recent development . Batteries just ain’t going to cut the mustard in that respect. 

Also read about a trial with Tesco and HGV EVs but range being only 100miles . Much work to do in that respect .


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## icowden (31 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Also read about a trial with Tesco and HGV EVs but range being only 100miles . Much work to do in that respect .


Ya think?

Coming soon in 2023ish. 2000 pre-orders (that's about 30 million spondulicks) . Does 300 or 500 miles fully loaded. £140,000 (£110,000 for the 300 mile version) - pays for itself in 2 years.






Scania are also working on electric trucks. And they could be better than diesel...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56678669


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## MrGrumpy (31 Jan 2022)

_While there have been reservations about the use of electric trucks, there has been a lot of noise about the potential for hydrogen-powered vehicles at the heavier end of the market._

"_The key is the price of the hydrogen fuel cell, that price has been going down, but not as fast as the price of batteries," says Dr Liimatainen.

If they come down, they will be quite competitive in the largest trucks, but it all depends on price." _

All to play for at the moment !


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## cougie uk (31 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> _While there have been reservations about the use of electric trucks, there has been a lot of noise about the potential for hydrogen-powered vehicles at the heavier end of the market._
> 
> "_The key is the price of the hydrogen fuel cell, that price has been going down, but not as fast as the price of batteries," says Dr Liimatainen.
> 
> ...


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## MrGrumpy (31 Jan 2022)

Just quoting from the article that was posted  .


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## icowden (1 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just quoting from the article that was posted  .


Yes - we get that. The problem is that as an article it is massively flawed in that it is written by a guy who has a massive vested interest in Hydrogen. It isn't therefore a very good argument as to why hydrogen is viable.


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## nickyboy (1 Feb 2022)

midlife said:


> I presume its something like a mitsubishi outlander? Just seems counter intuitive to drive a hybrid on electric for 80% of the time lugging a heavy ICE engine and fuel tank.


No, an SUV with 4WD capability (we live on a very steep hill in the Peak District so snow can be an issue; we have been snowed in for days when we have 2WD vehicles). The only EV that met my spec was the Audi Etron which was more than I wanted to pay. So best option was Mercedes GLC. As mentioned, as a PHEV it also gets around the range and recharging constraints when we go away somewhere. Yes it costs me money to lug around the ICE engine (not so much the tank as I'll keep it v low on diesel most of the time) but run costs per mile are small so it's not a big cost


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## MrGrumpy (1 Feb 2022)

Saw this meme it about sums up the holier than thou views of EV owners  .






All in jest ladies and gents


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## BrumJim (1 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Saw this meme it about sums up the holier than thou views of EV owners  .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Also utterly wrong:

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Currently just 3% generated by coal.


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## cougie uk (1 Feb 2022)

nickyboy said:


> No, an SUV with 4WD capability (we live on a very steep hill in the Peak District so snow can be an issue; we have been snowed in for days when we have 2WD vehicles). The only EV that met my spec was the Audi Etron which was more than I wanted to pay. So best option was Mercedes GLC. As mentioned, as a PHEV it also gets around the range and recharging constraints when we go away somewhere. Yes it costs me money to lug around the ICE engine (not so much the tank as I'll keep it v low on diesel most of the time) but run costs per mile are small so it's not a big cost


Do you use winter tyres ? I keep seeing that it makes a huge difference but we rarely get snow on the coast so I've never invested.


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## Alex321 (1 Feb 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Do you use winter tyres ? I keep seeing that it makes a huge difference but we rarely get snow on the coast so I've never invested.


I always put winter tyres on my cars when I lived in the Brecon Beacons, and yes they do make a huge difference.

It really brought it home to me one day when we had far too much snow to be able to get out even with those tyres (we lived at the bottom of a steep dead-end hill that never got ploughed, but had a grit bunker at the top which we could use). I spent the morning shovelling and gritting to get it semi-clear, then drove my car up the hill as if there were no snow at all. Then tried my wife's car (without winter tyres), and while I managed to get it up, it was slithering all over the place, and was very much only *just* making it up the hill.


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## gzoom (1 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes - we get that. The problem is that as an article it is massively flawed in that it is written by a guy who has a massive vested interest in Hydrogen. It isn't therefore a very good argument as to why hydrogen is viable.



For a product to be 'viable' it actually has to be close to scalable in the real word, so that pretty much excludes anything that has the word 'hydrogen' in it apart from taking about the sun .


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## MrGrumpy (1 Feb 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Also utterly wrong:
> 
> https://grid.iamkate.com/
> 
> Currently just 3% generated by coal.



 Wind your neck in ! Interesting looking at the charts further down. I assume the reliance on less renewables is down to the quiet weather . Ie no wind !!


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## farfromtheland (2 Feb 2022)

Illaveago said:


> How do you get your electricity ? Not all is green . Some are nuclear , some are diesel powered , some are even made from burning waste . There are waste disposal power generating sites being built in this area to get rid of waste generated in London ! All of the contractor vehicles are burning fossil fuels . How does the waste get to those sites? Most likely by an internal combustion engines vehicle !


Vast amounts of London garbage goes by barge convoys to the Veolia waste transfer station downriver - most of it is then burnt for power unfortunately, but more is being used for methane generation I believe. Since we have a methane surplus and hydrogen is processed via an intensive methane burn it makes more sense to burn methane in cars directly. I am not satisfied that enough research is going into disposable exhaust filters that could catch half of the CO2 or perhaps more. They would at least be a cheap stopgap for petrol/methane engines, but would be ugly and need replensishing every 2 weeks. Cheap is a dirty word where business innovation is concerned.


KnittyNorah said:


> I rather fancy the Astral; I like the gyroscope concept and I could drive it along the canal as well as on the roads.
> 
> I was thinking today, as I pedalled along the canal towpath and watched the swan gliding serenely along knowing that under the water its legs and feet were going like billy-oh, why aren't there more efficient ways of travelling on water using human power?
> Yes I know there is rowing your boat and paddling your own canoe (or kayak!) - sailing being impractical on a canal - but those are rather wet, splashy and primitive. I picture something vaguely like a recumbent but in a boat, and while you sit in comfort, warm and dry in a nice enclosed capsule/cockpit, coffee by your side, you are cranking quite gently on pedals which drive a paddlewheel or propeller (or something else - I know very little about efficient propulsion in water), well-shielded from the driver/rider/boater so there's no chance of getting wet.


Sailing is a good thing - but inland waterways can work for freight if we revamp and upgrade the canal network. Minimal energy required once done and the work involved is not impractical if the will is there. The Victorians did it and there are still various ship canals operating over vast distances worldwide. Railways also make sense. A lighter weight container system could do for both - less development cost than electric vehicle infastructure I'd bet, but needs strategic planning rather than business enterprise.


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## ClichéGuevara (2 Feb 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I rather fancy the Astral; I like the gyroscope concept and I could drive it along the canal as well as on the roads.
> 
> I was thinking today, as I pedalled along the canal towpath and watched the swan gliding serenely along knowing that under the water its legs and feet were going like billy-oh, why aren't there more efficient ways of travelling on water using human power?
> Yes I know there is rowing your boat and paddling your own canoe (or kayak!) - sailing being impractical on a canal - but those are rather wet, splashy and primitive.* I picture something vaguely like a recumbent but in a boat,* and while you sit in comfort, warm and dry in a nice enclosed capsule/cockpit, coffee by your side, you are cranking quite gently on pedals which drive a paddlewheel or propeller (or something else - I know very little about efficient propulsion in water), well-shielded from the driver/rider/boater so there's no chance of getting wet.


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## BrumJim (3 Feb 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> Vast amounts of London garbage goes by barge convoys to the Veolia waste transfer station downriver - most of it is then burnt for power unfortunately, but more is being used for methane generation I believe. Since we have a methane surplus and hydrogen is processed via an intensive methane burn it makes more sense to burn methane in cars directly. I am not satisfied that enough research is going into disposable exhaust filters that could catch half of the CO2 or perhaps more. They would at least be a cheap stopgap for petrol/methane engines, but would be ugly and need replensishing every 2 weeks. Cheap is a dirty word where business innovation is concerned.



I'm working on a job that involves changing diesel power to gas power. At the moment it is based on an economic argument, but with the flexibilty to run on green gas too. However the practical problems are that the gas produced from bio-digestion is quite dirty, and it takes a lot of technology to clean it up to the point where it is of any use to either domestic gas consumption or internal combustion engines. Currently it is much easier (and therefore economic) to use this gas to generate electricity through a gas turbine. This is what happends to great chunks of London waste at the massive Calvert facility in Buckinghamshire.

I would love to see green gas enter the gas supply system, but this would take more than a cheap ugly project, but more of a large coordinated effort across industries.

Not convinced there is anything that can capture the CO2 from an engine from a reasonable size that would allow it to be fitted to a highways vehicle or train. Then we have the big question as to what to do with that CO2. I think that carbon capture is part of the answer, but only a small part of it, and will continue to do so until the twin problems of capturing and storing are solved.


farfromtheland said:


> Sailing is a good thing - but inland waterways can work for freight if we revamp and upgrade the canal network. Minimal energy required once done and the work involved is not impractical if the will is there. The Victorians did it and there are still various ship canals operating over vast distances worldwide. Railways also make sense. A lighter weight container system could do for both - less development cost than electric vehicle infastructure I'd bet, but needs strategic planning rather than business enterprise.


I too would like to see the canal network brought back into use. But the restriction here is time and costs. Lightweight containers sounds like a blind alley there. The containers are designed to be robust and cheap, so lighter containers are likely to require more frequent replacement or repair, and I guess that the major weight is in the contents, not the structure.

There seem to be a few straw men in your argument. Business enterprise will find a more favourable solution whether it is either cheap and dirty or big and strategic. Countrywide strategic planning needs government support, and here there is a balance between vested interests from lobbying organisations, economic effects of unilateral actions (e.g. carbon tax on high-energy industries such as steel) and the (I believe) genuine desire of those in power to reduce the carbon output of this country.


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## presta (3 Feb 2022)

Electric car owners drive more:

_"Compared to non-EV users, the EV users in the sample used the car for a larger percentage of their total travel"_


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## MrGrumpy (3 Feb 2022)

Yep I get that, it’s cheap currently ! The world doesn’t need more new cars!


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## MrGrumpy (3 Feb 2022)

I was also thinking about emergency vehicles and electrification. It seems some Police forces are trialing Tesla Model 3s currently. Noted hydrogen powered cars also on trial  down in London. 

Stand down Tesla fanboys no need to all jump in at once  

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/355282/tesla-model-3-gains-favour-police


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## ClichéGuevara (3 Feb 2022)

presta said:


> Electric car owners drive more:
> 
> _"Compared to non-EV users, the EV users in the sample used the car for a larger percentage of their total travel"_



That doesn't bode well for congestion.


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## SpokeyDokey (3 Feb 2022)

Cars are great imo. Having come from an era when there were no cars in our 60's street it was very restricting. 

Cars were so liberating socially and opened up a world of possibilities re careers. 

I'm ok with EV but I think we have got it wrong. 

We don't need Teslas with <3 second 0-62mph times, hoofing great EV Range Rovers and insane electric Porshes that could pull the side of a house off. 

Most people need 1 or 2 seaters with some luggage space and maybe occasional access to a larger vehicle. 

Much smaller, adequate performance EV vehicles surely must be the way forward.


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## ClichéGuevara (3 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Cars are great imo. Having come from an era when there were no cars in our 60's street it was very restricting.
> 
> Cars were so liberating socially and opened up a world of possibilities re careers.
> 
> ...



I would argue that an integrated public transport system that operated on more convenient routes at appropriate times would be a better way forward for the long term than changing how we rely on private transport.


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## SpokeyDokey (3 Feb 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I would argue that an integrated public transport system that operated on more convenient routes at appropriate times would be a better way forward for the long term than changing how we rely on private transport.



Too restrictive for me and real pie in the sky in the sticks. Can't imagine any such system that would work economically and conveniently for my travels in and around Cumbria ie into the wilds.

I can see the benefits in denser urban spaces though.

We have a small car these days (not EV) and it suits our sub 2500 miles pa lifestyle. 

On the other hand I am wondering whether a little EV Quad bike (do they exist?) would be handy to have for my forays into the mountains. 

I favour a more pragmatic horses for courses approach tbh.


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## fossyant (3 Feb 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I would argue that an integrated public transport system that operated on more convenient routes at appropriate times would be a better way forward for the long term than changing how we rely on private transport.



Exactly, better public transport and less car traffic. And don't suggest people use their bikes !


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## BrumJim (3 Feb 2022)

presta said:


> Electric car owners drive more:
> 
> _"Compared to non-EV users, the EV users in the sample used the car for a larger percentage of their total travel"_


I can believe that. My wife has said to me "take the car, it's electric" several times. Each time I've opted to walk or ride, because it is not really solving the problem.


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## BrumJim (3 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Cars are great imo. Having come from an era when there were no cars in our 60's street it was very restricting.
> 
> Cars were so liberating socially and opened up a world of possibilities re careers.
> 
> ...


I agree. Problem is the halo effect. It is more desireable to buy an electric car related to the Tesla, rather than an up-graded Twizzy, even if they were of exactly the same spec.


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## icowden (3 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Too restrictive for me and real pie in the sky in the sticks. Can't imagine any such system that would work economically and conveniently for my travels in and around Cumbria ie into the wilds.


Kendal to Carlisle is 45 miles. I can't imagine any return journey in Cumbria is going to be much over 100 miles and there are loads of public charging points. So why is your use case exceptional?


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## icowden (3 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Most people need 1 or 2 seaters with some luggage space and maybe occasional access to a larger vehicle.
> Much smaller, adequate performance EV vehicles surely must be the way forward.


That's why self driving is the future. Need a mahoosive car to go to the airport - done. Need a small car to nip to the shops or pick the kids up from school? No problem. In the meantime, people will buy cars that match their use cases. For the majority of us that's an SUV or family type car.


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## Milkfloat (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Kendal to Carlisle is 45 miles. I can't imagine any return journey in Cumbria is going to be much over 100 miles and there are loads of public charging points. So why is your use case exceptional?


It was a comment about public transport, not about EV viability.


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## Alex321 (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Kendal to Carlisle is 45 miles. I can't imagine any return journey in Cumbria is going to be much over 100 miles and there are loads of public charging points. So why is your use case exceptional?


He was talking about using public transport, not about going electric.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Exactly, better public transport and less car traffic. And don't suggest people use their bikes !


Provision for carriage of bikes (and other wheeled human-powered vehicles) needs to be improved on and around the improved public transport. Then using bikes(etc) for those final (or first) few miles will be a much more practical prospect.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Feb 2022)

Northern Rail is great about bikes, and I can take a folding bike on the bus. 
Without the ability to take my bike with me on public transport, though, I would be very, very, restricted in where I can go and what I can do.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> That's why self driving is the future. Need a mahoosive car to go to the airport - done. Need a small car to nip to the shops or pick the kids up from school? No problem. In the meantime, people will buy cars that match their use cases. For the majority of us that's an SUV or family type car.


I admire your optimism but take the rose tinted glasses off. Long long way off What you envisage as being the norm !


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## cougie uk (3 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I admire your optimism but take the rose tinted glasses off. Long long way off What you envisage as being the norm !


It'll probably come quicker than you think. 
Roads are getting silly for congestion now. 
Parking is a nightmare. 
The next generation won't be able to afford their own cars - not with the price of housing. 
It'll make more sense for them to use self driving Ubers rather than have a car of their own sitting doing nothing for 99% of the time.


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## SpokeyDokey (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Kendal to Carlisle is 45 miles. I can't imagine any return journey in Cumbria is going to be much over 100 miles and there are loads of public charging points. So why is your use case exceptional?



Firstly: we were talking about a properly integrated public transport system not EV point to point use. 

Secondly, Kendal to Carlisle is a simple journey. Try: a bit North of Kendal to say Wasdale Head (something I do 3 or 4 times a year plus other similar journeys) and give me a public transport option that works - or even sketch out an integrated solution for me.


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## cougie uk (3 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Firstly: we were talking about a properly integrated public transport system not EV point to point use.
> 
> Secondly, Kendal to Carlisle is a simple journey. Try: a bit North of Kendal to say Wasdale Head (something I do 3 or 4 times a year plus other similar journeys) and give me a public transport option that works - or even sketch out an integrated solution for me.


What would you have done 50 years ago ? I'm afraid you'll always struggle for public transport out in the countryside.


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## Cerdic (3 Feb 2022)

presta said:


> Electric car owners drive more:
> 
> _"Compared to non-EV users, the EV users in the sample used the car for a larger percentage of their total travel"_



This might be because the people who can afford, and are attracted to, electric cars are the demographic who would use their car more irrespective of its motive power.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Feb 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It'll probably come quicker than you think.
> Roads are getting silly for congestion now.
> Parking is a nightmare.
> The next generation won't be able to afford their own cars - not with the price of housing.
> It'll make more sense for them to use self driving Ubers rather than have a car of their own sitting doing nothing for 99% of the time.


Self driving cars do nothing for congestion. It’s going to get more and more congested. I really don’t see the obsession with self driving vehicles ?? That’s less jobs , what’s good about that ??


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## icowden (3 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Self driving cars do nothing for congestion. It’s going to get more and more congested. I really don’t see the obsession with self driving vehicles ?? That’s less jobs , what’s good about that ??


"They're closing ;t pits - that's fewer jobs, what's good about that?"
"They've got motorized carriages - the grooms and breeders are going to be put out of jobs - what's good about that?"
"These new automated exchanges- the operators'll be out of work - what's good about that?"
"These new harvesting machines - the pickers'll be out of work - what's good about that?"

and so on...

Jobs are obsoleted all the time.

Self driving cars reduce congestion as *fewer *people need to buy cars.


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## icowden (3 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Firstly: we were talking about a properly integrated public transport system not EV point to point use.
> 
> Secondly, Kendal to Carlisle is a simple journey. Try: a bit North of Kendal to say Wasdale Head (something I do 3 or 4 times a year plus other similar journeys) and give me a public transport option that works - or even sketch out an integrated solution for me.


Yep - sorry - apologies - didn't read properly and I entirely agree with you. Whilst you might get clusters of self driving cars in Carlisle and Kendall, you'd have to plan ahead a lot to go off the beaten track , and other public transport just wouldn't be viable.


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## classic33 (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> "They're closing ;t pits - that's fewer jobs, what's good about that?"
> "They've got motorized carriages - the grooms and breeders are going to be put out of jobs - what's good about that?"
> "These new automated exchanges- the operators'll be out of work - what's good about that?"
> "These new harvesting machines - the pickers'll be out of work - what's good about that?"
> ...


If self driving/automated cars start appearing in large numbers, then expect the number of them on the road to increase.

A major selling point is that you'll have fewer stops, due in part to the fact that they'll follow the lead vehicle at a given distance at a similar speed, at a closer spacing than "would be safe" with a driver in control. Their speed being limited to the type of road they are on. You end up with more cars taking up less space on the roads. That "empty space" will be taken up by other vehicles.


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## icowden (3 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> If self driving/automated cars start appearing in large numbers, then expect the number of them on the road to increase.


And if they are more affordable than owning a car, expect people to purchase fewer cars...


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## classic33 (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> And if they are more affordable than owning a car, expect people to purchase fewer cars...


Who's saying that automated/self driving cars won't be owned by private individuals.
You seem to feel that they'll be fleet vehicles only.


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## icowden (3 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Who's saying that automated/self driving cars won't be owned by private individuals.
> You seem to feel that they'll be fleet vehicles only.


Nope. I am saying that I think a large number of people will stop purchasing cars if it is more economic to summon one.


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## classic33 (3 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Nope. I am saying that I think a large number of people will stop purchasing cars if it is more economic to summon one.


No chance!
Just have a gander at the number of taxi/private hire companies are in your area. They've failed to cut private car ownership. How will any other form of summoning a car, that you don't own, cut private ownership?

This applies to whatever is powering the vehicle.


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## cougie uk (3 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> No chance!
> Just have a gander at the number of taxi/private hire companies are in your area. They've failed to cut private car ownership. How will any other form of summoning a car, that you don't own, cut private ownership?
> 
> This applies to whatever is powering the vehicle.



Cars have probably just about peaked in affordability. Look at the price of property now compared to what it was 25 years ago. 
My mortgage repayments were less than the price you'd pay for a new car now. 
Look at Uber. 

Pensioners and us older folks (40 plus?) Are probably ok. Cheaper housing that will be paid off. We can afford cars. 

Next generation ? Will they have the spare cash for cars after paying the rent or mortgage ? I'm not so sure. 

Times change. There's no way we can keep on adding cars to the roads like we have. Who knows - perhaps we might have a better country for the changes ?


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## icowden (4 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> Just have a gander at the number of taxi/private hire companies are in your area. They've failed to cut private car ownership. How will any other form of summoning a car, that you don't own, cut private ownership?


Have you seen the price of hiring a taxi? People don't get taxis everywhere because they are expensive. £5.60 to go three miles in an uber - that gives £1.86 per mile. Lets say I drive on average 12,000 miles in a year. To go every where by taxi would cost me £22,400. If I am buying a car on PCP for £300 per month, and buying insurance, that's going to cost me about £4000 per year (not including any maintenance and assuming a VED of 0). So we need to be achieving rates of around 30p per mile to make a self-driving fleet appealing to the masses. If we set the calculation at £400 per month spend, that rises to 44p per mile.

A taxi driver needs to earn a living, and only works a certain number of hours per day. A self-driving BEV doesn't need to earn a living, just make enough money to pay for fuel, cleaning and maintenance, and company profits.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Feb 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What would you have done 50 years ago ? I'm afraid you'll always struggle for public transport out in the countryside.



But it is not 50 years ago it is 2022 - I already mentioned that the mobility afforded by cars improved people's lives immensely. The vast majority of people do not want to let that go. And an increasing number of people (self included) want to continue in the same vein albeit more responsibly.

I agree, rural public transport is always going to be pants - so rather than the bloated waffle re integrated rural public transport solutions trotted out by faceless committees and picked up by the media why not accept that cars are a wonderful form of transportation BUT let's go EV or hydrogen but make them smaller, less powerful and more relevant to their use - if you are a 1 person household you most of the time could get by with a little 1 person car imo.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Yep - sorry - apologies - didn't read properly and I entirely agree with you. Whilst you might get clusters of self driving cars in Carlisle and Kendall, you'd have to plan ahead a lot to go off the beaten track , and other public transport just wouldn't be viable.


Cool - thanks.


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## cougie uk (4 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> But it is not 50 years ago it is 2022 - I already mentioned that the mobility afforded by cars improved people's lives immensely. The vast majority of people do not want to let that go. And an increasing number of people (self included) want to continue iin the same vein more responsibly.
> 
> I agree, rural public transport is always going to be pants - so rather than the bloated waffle re integrated rural public transport solutions trotted out by faceless committees and picked up by the media why not accept that cars are a wonderful form of transportation BUT let's go EV or hydrogen but make them smaller, less powerful and more relevant to their use - if you are a 1 person household you most of the time could get by with a little 1 person car imo.


https://news.sky.com/story/bank-of-england-raises-interest-rate-to-0-5-12531683

I'm afraid we are going back in our standards of living - largely thanks to foolish populist governments who just want to be in power without any skills whatsoever. God knows how long it will take to bounce back from this mess.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Feb 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Cars have probably just about peaked in affordability. Look at the price of property now compared to what it was 25 years ago.
> My mortgage repayments were less than the price you'd pay for a new car now.
> Look at Uber.
> 
> ...


I see no sign of any slowdown in the post-school, college, uni stampede to buy the latest shiny iPhone, iMac, driving lessons (followed by a car) and travel to far flung places by the younger members of our family and friendship groups - which also span a very wide demographic.

Fair play - I'd be doing the same if I was their age.

Good amusement value too - one younger member of our extended family (26 years old) will happily and unwantedly castigate all and sundry re eating meat, keeping your CH temp too high and how 'oldies' (including his parents who gave him a great start in life) have "stuffed his planet" etc...

... he recently proudly announced that his first ever company car (small petrol BMW) is due shortly - this follows on from sharing his intentions to visit Canada, Cape Town and Australia over the next 15 months or so - and he will! He also lives in a small apartment that looks like a cross between a fashion emporium and the Starship Enterprise's bridge - he is a Graphics Designer and heavy duty gamer.

Enough of this I'm off to turn the CH down by 5C and shiver and not spoil 'his' planet any more than I have to.

😂


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Feb 2022)

cougie uk said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/bank-of-england-raises-interest-rate-to-0-5-12531683
> 
> I'm afraid we are going back in our standards of living - largely thanks to foolish populist governments who just want to be in power without any skills whatsoever. God knows how long it will take to bounce back from this mess.


Sorry, that's too far towards a NACA post for me to comment on.


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## Milkfloat (4 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Sorry, that's too far towards a NACA post for me to comment on.


To be fair the whole thread and many others also meet that criteria.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Feb 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> To be fair the whole thread and many others also meet that criteria.


I thought we'd done well to steer clear tbh.


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## vickster (4 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> That's why self driving is the future. Need a mahoosive car to go to the airport - done. Need a small car to nip to the shops or pick the kids up from school? No problem. In the meantime, people will buy cars that match their use cases. For the majority of us that's an SUV or family type car.


Why can't most people in sub/urban areas do that on foot or by bike?


SpokeyDokey said:


> I see no sign of any slowdown in the post-school, college, uni stampede to buy the latest shiny iPhone, iMac, driving lessons (followed by a car) and travel to far flung places by the younger members of our family and friendship groups - which also span a very wide demographic.
> 
> Fair play - I'd be doing the same if I was their age.
> 
> ...


Have you pointed out the irony of his behaviour...what did he say?


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## fossyant (4 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I see no sign of any slowdown in the post-school, college, uni stampede to buy the latest shiny iPhone, iMac, driving lessons (followed by a car) and travel to far flung places by the younger members of our family and friendship groups - which also span a very wide demographic.
> 
> Fair play - I'd be doing the same if I was their age.
> 
> ...



Lots of double standards isn't there, especially with the youngsters. God forbid I suggest those that live about 3 miles from work actually cycle or walk. They all drive in and moan they can't find a car parking space (they can't get one on Uni property as they live too close). They also benefit from great public transport where they live. 

We need better public transport, not even self driving cars as that's yet another vehicle clogging the roads.

Ideally we'd all have a small EV for the local stuff and going to work, then maybe an ICE vehicle for long distances. Win win here, the ICE vehicle isn't used much and only where it's as efficient as it can be.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Feb 2022)

vickster said:


> Why can't most people in sub/urban areas do that on foot or by bike?
> 
> Have you pointed out the irony of his behaviour...what did he say?


Waste of time - arrogant little bugger; won't listen. 

Both him and his lady are cut from the same cloth. 

She is earning well too (which I love to see in the young) and works very hard in the legal sector but waxes lyrical on all things eco but when I last heard she had booked a 'girly bash' (her words) for a party of 10 for 2 weeks in Dubai. Eco-impact probably offset by the Vegan Dr Martens she bought last year whilst moaning about all her mum's leather shoes.


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## icowden (4 Feb 2022)

vickster said:


> Why can't most people in sub/urban areas do that on foot or by bike?


Oh they probably can. It depends how sub your urban is and what your mobility is like. For example I frequently drive to the co-op. But it's only a 15 minute walk or 5 minute cycle. Just convenience and storage space. If you moved to a summoned self-drive fleet more people would walk those sorts of distances instead of driving.


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## MrGrumpy (4 Feb 2022)

icowden said:


> Oh they probably can. It depends how sub your urban is and what your mobility is like. For example I frequently drive to the co-op. But it's only a 15 minute walk or 5 minute cycle. Just convenience and storage space. If you moved to a summoned self-drive fleet more people would walk those sorts of distances instead of driving.


Or just have an exclusion zone for vehicles in town centres ? Why the need for a summoned self driving vehicle ? It’s not fixing what we are talking about here ? I’d probably hate it but I’d get used it !


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## Milkfloat (4 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I thought we'd done well to steer clear tbh.


I guess it depends on your definition of News and Current Affairs. I would argue that the energy situation we are in now is both. However, seeing as toys are remaining in prams perhaps it is not the NACA of old.


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## MrGrumpy (4 Feb 2022)

Fuel and excise duty must be replaced with new tax, MPs say https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60251046

It’s funny , in about 20yrs we will no doubt be in the same position if not worse but it’s not the price of diesel or petrol but the price of kW hrs


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## ClichéGuevara (4 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> Lots of double standards isn't there, especially with the youngsters. God forbid I suggest those that live about 3 miles from work actually cycle or walk. They all drive in and moan they can't find a car parking space (they can't get one on Uni property as they live too close). They also benefit from great public transport where they live.
> 
> We need better public transport, not even self driving cars as that's yet another vehicle clogging the roads.
> 
> Ideally we'd all have a small EV for the local stuff and going to work, then maybe an ICE vehicle for long distances. Win win here, the ICE vehicle isn't used much and only where it's as efficient as it can be.


The announcement of the move to EV's meant that emission reductions that were planned, are simply not being pushed through to the user, as there is no point for the manufacturers. 

The end result is that until we're all electric, tail pipe emissions are liable to be higher than they could have been, and the move to EV's is liable to result in higher levels of other atmospheric gasses due to the overall interactions, replacing one problem with another. All at quite a cost to the economy and household budgets.


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## BrumJim (4 Feb 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Waste of time - arrogant little bugger; won't listen.
> 
> Both him and his lady are cut from the same cloth.
> 
> She is earning well too (which I love to see in the young) and works very hard in the legal sector but waxes lyrical on all things eco but when I last heard she had booked a 'girly bash' (her words) for a party of 10 for 2 weeks in Dubai. Eco-impact probably offset by the Vegan Dr Martens she bought last year whilst moaning about all her mum's leather shoes.


I'm all for travel broading the mind, but not convinced that a girly party of 10 in Dubai really fits that description.


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## fossyant (4 Feb 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The announcement of the move to EV's meant that emission reductions that were planned, are simply not being pushed through to the user, as there is no point for the manufacturers.
> 
> The end result is that until we're all electric, tail pipe emissions are liable to be higher than they could have been, and the move to EV's is liable to result in higher levels of other atmospheric gasses due to the overall interactions, replacing one problem with another. All at quite a cost to the economy and household budgets.



And don't mention the Yanks, EV sales aren't great as a percentage.


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## ClichéGuevara (4 Feb 2022)

fossyant said:


> And don't mention the Yanks, EV sales aren't great as a percentage.



It gets worse when you look at how the figures are calculated. A change in a couple of the factors or a correction to the original estimates pretty much drawn from google maps, and a region can show they've achieved a reduction even if nothing actually changes.


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## Alex321 (4 Feb 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Self driving cars do nothing for congestion. It’s going to get more and more congested. I really don’t see the obsession with self driving vehicles ?? That’s less jobs , what’s good about that ??


I don't understand why you believe either that they will do nothing for congestion, or that it will mean fewer jobs.

Assuming we are talking about rentable self-driving cars, people will undoubtedly take fewer journeys with them than they would if they had a car sat permanently on their drive. They are never going to be quite as convenient for spur of the moment short trips.

And it will only reduce jobs if the people using them would otherwise have used a human driven taxi.


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## Alex321 (4 Feb 2022)

classic33 said:


> No chance!
> Just have a gander at the number of taxi/private hire companies are in your area. They've failed to cut private car ownership. How will any other form of summoning a car, that you don't own, cut private ownership?
> 
> This applies to whatever is powering the vehicle.


 They will almost certainly be cheaper to summon and use than human driven taxis.


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## Alex321 (4 Feb 2022)

vickster said:


> Why can't most people in sub/urban areas do that on foot or by bike?


Because most people aren't prepared to forgo the speed and comfort of doing it by car.

We on this forum are a very unusual demographic.


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## cougie uk (4 Feb 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The announcement of the move to EV's meant that emission reductions that were planned, are simply not being pushed through to the user, as there is no point for the manufacturers.
> 
> The end result is that until we're all electric, tail pipe emissions are liable to be higher than they could have been, and the move to EV's is liable to result in higher levels of other atmospheric gasses due to the overall interactions, replacing one problem with another. All at quite a cost to the economy and household budgets.


Is there an English version of this ?

All petrol and diesel gives off nasty exhaust fumes. We know that not all electric is generated cleanly - but this can increase and has done massively over the last few years. Already you are getting people charging their car off their own solar panels - and using renewable energy tariffs.


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## ClichéGuevara (4 Feb 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Is there an English version of this ?
> 
> All petrol and diesel gives off nasty exhaust fumes. We know that not all electric is generated cleanly - but this can increase and has done massively over the last few years. Already you are getting people charging their car off their own solar panels - and using renewable energy tariffs.



If you struggled with that, I'm not sure there's much point going too deeply into it, but as just one example.

NO2 concentrations were on average −20.1% [13.7–30.4%] lower during the lockdown. However, this benefit was offset by amplified O3 pollution of +8.5% [3.7–11.0%] in the same period. The consistency in the direction of change indicates that the NO2 reductions and O3 increases were ubiquitous over Vienna. Ox concentrations increased slightly by +4.3% [1.8–6.4%], suggesting that a significant part of the drops in NO2 was compensated by gains in O3. Accordingly, 82% of lockdown days with lowered NO2 were accompanied by 81% of days with amplified O3

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749121007351


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## gzoom (5 Feb 2022)

vickster said:


> Why can't most people in sub/urban areas do that on foot or by bike?



Why don't we have world peace? Why do people break the law? Why cannot I stop eating cake when I'm trying to lose weight?

The pursit of perfection is often the biggest hinderance to real progress.


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## ClichéGuevara (5 Feb 2022)

vickster said:


> Why can't most people in sub/urban areas do that on foot or by bike?



An argument I have heard, and I can see the reasoning, is why should people in the urban area pay Council Tax for roads they don't use, and travel by bike so that there is more space for those that choose to live out of town to drive on? I guess you could argue both sides are being selfish.

I think it's also worth contemplating _why _people are being pushed in the direction they are, as sometimes focusing on one issue can miss the whole bigger picture. 

In my view, the whole strategy is flawed as especially in the case of CO2 it is based on data that is far from robust, as any examination of the methodology quickly shows. There is also an argument that greater gains can be made if the focus was on other emissions.

There is no doubt the climate is changing, it always has, and always will, and there is no doubt we need to use finite resources with extreme care, but the current focus creates areas for doubt and confusion, as despite the claims that will undoubtedly follow this and are for another thread, or more likely NACA, the figures for emissions are very rough and ready, and extremely unlikely to ever show a clear causal link to any monitored values. A tweak of a few factors in that estimate can solve it, or make it appear much worse, without anything actually changing in reality.

In my view, a more robust and less arguable and therefore more readily acceptable approach would have been to focus heavily on the need for sustainable living and lifestyles, and incorporating planning for resilience to the changes and not get dragged in to the 'science' especially if the information pushed out can be challenged, and the historic claims have almost all shown to be very wide of the mark.

I think in the future, many will look at the cost of living, and the other health and societal impacts they have, and look back bemused at how it came about.

Like it or not, and without down playing the harm, fossil fuels have helped many areas of the world improve their life expectancy, health and quality of life tremendously since its wider use, and it has also helped make the world far, far safer from natural disasters, and that often gets ignored in the estimates and plans, which is a big risk to the large numbers of people that have yet to see the full benefits.


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## vickster (5 Feb 2022)

gzoom said:


> Why don't we have world peace?


Because 50% of the world’s population is male


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## MrGrumpy (1 Mar 2022)

Anyone got more than one EV charger at home ? Son No1 is looking at a new car an EV . Thinking ahead , that’s going to be a PITA if more than one wants to use the charger ?


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## fossyant (1 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyone got more than one EV charger at home ? Son No1 is looking at a new car an EV . Thinking ahead , that’s going to be a PITA if more than one wants to use the charger ?



 Third world problems. Driveway shuffle I can see.


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## SpokeyDokey (1 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Third world problems. Driveway shuffle I can see.



Lots of shuffling on roads too where families have more than one car but no drive.

Charging rage anyone?


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## FishFright (1 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Cars are great imo. Having come from an era when there were no cars in our 60's street it was very restricting.
> 
> Cars were so liberating socially and opened up a world of possibilities re careers.
> 
> ...



The needs for smaller vehicles has been known and talked about for decades and as we can see that's going very well /S


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## Scottish Scrutineer (1 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyone got more than one EV charger at home ? Son No1 is looking at a new car an EV . Thinking ahead , that’s going to be a PITA if more than one wants to use the charger ?


The issue may be concurrent use overloading the supply to the property and the chargers. It may be that charge rates need to be restricted if both are charging together. Having charger with a long enough charging lead to reach both vehicles may be the most appropriate (and cost effective) solution


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## figbat (1 Mar 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> The issue may be concurrent use overloading the supply to the property and the chargers. It may be that charge rates need to be restricted if both are charging together. Having charger with a long enough charging lead to reach both vehicles may be the most appropriate (and cost effective) solution


Yeah - I believe you can get twin chargers that intelligently manage current load. Or you could plug the bigger batteried car into your posh charger and granny-charge t'other one.


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## MrGrumpy (1 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Yeah - I believe you can get twin chargers that intelligently manage current load. Or you could plug the bigger batteried car into your posh charger and granny-charge t'other one.


don’t think it’s been given this level of thought ! However it’s going to be an issue for a lot of people. Family of 5 here with 4 vehicles .


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## MrGrumpy (1 Mar 2022)

Anyone got info on whether the interest free loans are stopping for EVs with the Scottish Government? The website suggests loans referrals must be in by this Friday ?


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## gzoom (1 Mar 2022)

^Most EV incentives are disappearing quickly, 0% government backed loans are very expensive to maintain when inflation is heading to 7%+.


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## FishFright (1 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Because 50% of the world’s population is male



With the other half egging them on


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> don’t think it’s been given this level of thought ! However it’s going to be an issue for a lot of people. Family of 5 here with 4 vehicles .


Perhaps the next thought is do you really need 4 vehicles for 5 people? We are a family of 4 with one vehicle...


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Perhaps the next thought is do you really need 4 vehicles for 5 people? We are a family of 4 with one vehicle...


Knew you would come back with that, could we do without all 4 , Short answer no, maybe in the future  we will see .


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Perhaps the next thought is do you really need 4 vehicles for 5 people? We are a family of 4 with one vehicle...


It does seem a lot especially if any sit on the drive for prolonged periods.
Are all 4 in your family able to drive so comparing like for like?
You also maybe live in a rather more built up area, better served by public transport?


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> It does seem a lot especially if any sit on the drive for prolonged periods.
> Are all 4 in your family able to drive so comparing like for like?
> You also maybe live in a rather more built up area, better served by public transport?


None sit on the drive , we all have to drive to work. I dare say it could be cut down but cars are not just used for work journeys , two eldest need them for other more pleasure activities outside of that . One volunteers in scouting the other kayaks during summer months . Wife need transport for her job even locally ! 

As for public transport ! Train this morning was cancelled short notice , two days on the bounce . I’d maybe get that train and cycle home . But best laid plans and all that, public transport is mince unless you live in a large city round here . 

Anyway EV chargers was the question , I suspect I would not be alone  in this scenario .


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## Scottish Scrutineer (2 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyone got info on whether the interest free loans are stopping for EVs with the Scottish Government? The website suggests loans referrals must be in by this Friday ?


You usually find that the Govt interest free loans pause in March until the next financial year.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyway EV chargers was the question , I suspect I would not be alone  in this scenario .


Do they all need to be charged every day? I thought some had a range of hundreds of miles which presumably you're not all doing every day?


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> You usually find that the Govt interest free loans pause in March until the next financial year.


Yep further reading it’s this Friday for referrals and following Friday for applications


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Do they all need to be charged every day? I thought some had a range of hundreds of miles which presumably you're not all doing every day?


I’m guessing not ! Don’t have any just now but the future will involve charging . Fingers crossed by the time we all have an EV , they will have moved out


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## figbat (2 Mar 2022)

I did wonder if daisy-chaining EVs would become possible, with the charger and cars intelligently managing and sharing the charge current. Some cars have peer-to-peer charging capability so maybe it is already possible?


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyway EV chargers was the question , I suspect I would not be alone  in this scenario .


Oh, I know you aren't alone. There are two families in my street that have 5+ cars. I just think it's insane. I have never seen their driveways empty of cars. This to me suggests that they have cars they don't need. How they afford to run them all I just don't know.

We used to have two cars - one was only really ever used to go to the station. So I started cycling instead. I suspect that once my children become of driving age, we may return to two cars, but there is no way we are going down the one car per person route. With two cars, you can just alternate the charging as needed - it's unlikely that two cars will be doing most of their mileage each day. I'd have thought it even less likely with four cars.

These days, it would be useful occasionally to have a second car but for the most part, we just adapt our schedules. I drop the kids and my wife at school / work, then come home to do my work, then go and pick them all up again, except on days when my wife does the picking up and dropping off. If she needs the car, I use the bike. I can get to most places (including the train station) by bike, so I don't really need the car.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

Why can’t the kids get themselves to school? Are they tiny (ie someway off driving?)


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Oh, I know you aren't alone. There are two families in my street that have 5+ cars. I just think it's insane. I have never seen their driveways empty of cars. This to me suggests that they have cars they don't need. How they afford to run them all I just don't know.


only one car on the drive just now and he doesn’t start till this afternoon . If work was different and I worked from home of course I would rethink things . I’m hoping to get back on my bike after nearly a year off not really cycling . My car will stay though on the drive  . Unfortunately work these days involves travel for a lot of people and quite frankly public transport integration is just not good enough. An hour or more using a bus for me each way or 20-25 mins by car…. Or……… 60 mins by bike. Trains quicker than the bus but that’s it !


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## Alex321 (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Oh, I know you aren't alone. There are two families in my street that have 5+ cars. I just think it's insane. I have never seen their driveways empty of cars. This to me suggests that they have cars they don't need. How they afford to run them all I just don't know.


As of last week, we now have three vehicles for the two of us.

The third is a motor caravan, which will only be used probably a dozen or so times a year (even though it cost a fair bit more than either of the cars).

We are thinking about whether we can use that instead of my car, but it would be tricky, as it is too tall for multi-storey car parks, or any others with a height restriction. And it really wouldn't be good to use my wife's Micra for things like trips to Scotland to see our daughter, so we would have to use it for that sort of drive.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

I had a look at current EVs...not one of them appealed to me in terms of practicality or more importantly aesthetics! They're all huge, fugly or both!!  Once there is a small, good looking estate with decent range at a sensible price, I may consider!


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> As of last week, we now have three vehicles for the two of us.
> 
> The third is a motor caravan, which will only be used probably a dozen or so times a year (even though it cost a fair bit more than either of the cars).
> 
> We are thinking about whether we can use that instead of my car, but it would be tricky, as it is too tall for multi-storey car parks, or any others with a height restriction. And it really wouldn't be good to use my wife's Micra for things like trips to Scotland to see our daughter, so we would have to use it for that sort of drive.


I wonder what will happen to the value of Motorhomes nearer to cut off time?

Many are low mileage and have historically held their value well.


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## tyred (2 Mar 2022)

My local national park has always had a bus service between the car park and the castle and gardens which is the main attraction. 

In 2020 a big fuss was made about them getting some electric minibuses and all the good it would do. 

In the past month or so I have gone there a lot for walks while I recover from injury and I don't use the bus service but can't help noticing that the fancy new electric buses sit there and rarely seem to be used while the ancient Mercedes minibuses that they always had to do all the work. 

It just seems strange to me. The electric bus must be either horrible to drive or unreliable. Why else would the drivers shun a nice shiny new bus for a rattling, smokey, diesel-drinking old Merc?


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I wonder what will happen to the value of Motorhomes nearer to cut off time?
> 
> Many are low mileage and have historically held their value well.


Well considering they are based on base vans , they will carry on building them but with batteries ? However the value of existing stock I think will be fine . Fuel is going to be around for a long time yet …….. well assuming current issues are addressed.


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## Alex321 (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I wonder what will happen to the value of Motorhomes nearer to cut off time?
> 
> Many are low mileage and have historically held their value well.


I suspect it won't make all that much difference at first, since you will still be able to drive them. 

But once fuel stations selling diesel start to disappear, then it will make a big difference. I'm not sure how many of them can use the truck pumps.


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## cougie uk (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I had a look at current EVs...not one of them appealed to me in terms of practicality or more importantly aesthetics! They're all huge, fugly or both!!  Once there is a small, good looking estate with decent range at a sensible price, I may consider!


 Are you sure you have seen them all - quite a few are just EV versions of existing cars ?
Mini, Fiat 500, Corsa, Peugot 208, Zoe, Honda E - they're all small.

Small and estate car is an interesting choice too. Have you seen the MG estate ? Its about what you'd expect for an estate.

There are huge EVs I agree - they are copying the ICE fashion and I'll be avoiding those like the plague.


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## cougie uk (2 Mar 2022)

tyred said:


> My local national park has always had a bus service between the car park and the castle and gardens which is the main attraction.
> 
> In 2020 a big fuss was made about them getting some electric minibuses and all the good it would do.
> 
> ...


Maybe ask a driver ? There are quite a few electric Mercedes vans from Amazon round here making a lot of deliveries.


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## Alex321 (2 Mar 2022)

tyred said:


> My local national park has always had a bus service between the car park and the castle and gardens which is the main attraction.
> 
> In 2020 a big fuss was made about them getting some electric minibuses and all the good it would do.
> 
> ...


Possibly they have been told to wear out the old ones first?


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Are you sure you have seen them all - quite a few are just EV versions of existing cars ?
> Mini, Fiat 500, Corsa, Peugot 208, Zoe, Honda E - they're all small.
> 
> Small and estate car is an interesting choice too. Have you seen the MG estate ? Its about what you'd expect for an estate.
> ...


Rather big. I have a Fabia estate which is perfect size for me (maybe Skoda will oblige in the not too distant future, I won't be changing for at least 5 years my 2012 has only done 31k miles). The MG is more Octavia sized, too big for one person with a bike 
You could argue I don't really need a car but I have elderly parents that need me to be able to get to them easily (and having had a car for nigh on 30 years it's a hard habit to break!)


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Why can’t the kids get themselves to school? Are they tiny (ie someway off driving?)


It's slightly complicated. The access to the school is from a road that's not particularly cycling safe (I know lots of cyclists who avoid it). It's a fast narrow busy 40mph road . As a result the school have banned cycling to school. It's a 15 minute drive (on a good day), but probably an hours walk - again up a long country road which no-one really walks down. The school does have coaches and minibusses from various locations but the cost of those is quite prohibitive compared to just driving to the school.

So although they are 13 and 15, the only way to get them there really is the car. 
Now the *good* news is that the council have *finally *agreed funding to update the road in question to have dedicated cycle infrastructure. Quite how they will do it, and whether it will be any good is another matter. By the time it gets built they are likely to be doing A-Levels. The downside to cycling at the moment is also that they keep all their school books at home (covid decision) and thus have to travel in with several tonnes of stuff every day.


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I had a look at current EVs...not one of them appealed to me in terms of practicality or more importantly aesthetics! They're all huge, fugly or both!!  Once there is a small, good looking estate with decent range at a sensible price, I may consider!


For the moment I think you can only manage two of those criteria. The Tesla Y isn't huge and isn't *that* ugly but is expensive. Similar for the VW ID4. And then you get into the "massive" territory...


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> For the moment I think you can only manage two of those criteria. The Tesla Y isn't huge and isn't *that* ugly but is expensive. Similar for the VW ID4. And then you get into the "massive" territory...


Is the Y the hideous SUV with the fugly gullwing doors  (imo)

I've never liked saloons so that's Tesla's other models out


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## gzoom (2 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyone got more than one EV charger at home ? Son No1 is looking at a new car an EV . Thinking ahead , that’s going to be a PITA if more than one wants to use the charger ?



I barely charge our EV twice a week in day to day use. We actually have x2 32 commando sockets already installed so if needed to we can charge x2 EVs at once - The amp load will be around 70amps so well below the 100amp main fuse limit. 

The only thing stopping us getting x2 EVs is ££££, and the fact our 2nd car only does 3000 miles a year so hardly worth changing till it breaks.


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I suspect it won't make all that much difference at first, since you will still be able to drive them.
> 
> But once fuel stations selling diesel start to disappear, then it will make a big difference. I'm not sure how many of them can use the truck pumps.



I can forsee the eventual cut off becoming much more draconian the nearer we get to 2030 - especially if EV's are substantially in the majority by then. 

And if the cut off point does linger on then conventional fuel taxes will go (further) through the roof imo.


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## gzoom (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Is the Y the hideous SUV with the fugly gullwing doors  (imo)
> 
> I've never liked saloons so that's Tesla's other models out



No the Y is a 3 on stilts, its only the X that has powered doors all round. You cannot actually order a X at the moment as Tesla aren't producing them due to complexity/components. In fact in the UK there isn't even a price for the new X, last time there was a price Tesla wanted about £100K for base spec with decent seating arrangement.

Looking at Tesla 'approved' sales you need about £65K for a 2017 Model X today.........we paid £71K for ours in 2017, £6K depreciation over 5 years of ownership, so even though you might not like them plenty of people seem to (my self included). Conventional unpowered doors seem just that these days, conventional


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> No the Y is a 3 on stilts, its only the X that has powered doors all round. You cannot actually order a X at the moment as Tesla aren't producing them due to complexity/components.
> 
> Looking at Tesla wants £65K for a 2017 Model X today.........we paid £71K for ours in 2017, £6K depreciation over 5 years of ownership, so even though you might not like them plenty of people seem to (my self included). Conventional unpowered doors seem just that these days, conventional
> 
> View attachment 633511


Yuk  especially as it’s white bleurgh…(each to their own  )


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Are you sure you have seen them all - quite a few are just EV versions of existing cars ?
> Mini, Fiat 500, Corsa, Peugot 208, Zoe, Honda E - they're all small.
> 
> Small and estate car is an interesting choice too. Have you seen the MG estate ? Its about what you'd expect for an estate.
> ...



I think we should be taking the proverbial bull by the horns by banning big EV SUV's now.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I think we should be taking the proverbial bull by the horns by banning big EV SUV's now.


Ahhh but it’s ok cos they run on leccy so are completely clean and have no impact on the environment, roads etc


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Ahhh but it’s ok cos they run on leccy so are completely clean


Yup - size matters to some people. 

We've had people take the proverbial out of our small car choice despite knowing that we could easily afford to buy/run a big SUV. 

They just cannot get their head around downsizing their cars and their EV purchases, sadly, show no sign of this abating. 

****wits the lot of them.


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Yuk  especially as it’s white bleurgh…(each to their own  )


Other colours are available (for a cost). The Y looks like this. It has a decent amount of space in it though.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

Yuk..still a saloon and looks like one. The colour is the only acceptable aesthetic
I’ve sat in the back of a Tesla cab in Amsterdam. Complete lack of legroom and headroom, and struggled to actually get out of it with my non bending knee.
never be one for me


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## gzoom (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> never be one for me



I think we all get that message .

There are plenty of other EVs around, pretty much every brand how has EVs in saloon all the way through to SUV format. MG does options if you want to save money, if money is no object the BMW iX is actually quite an accomplished SUV beating the X in the 'mosse' test which is no mean feat. Ofcourse if you want the 'best' EV saloon, Porsche will happily sell you a Taycan - but there is a 6 months waiting list.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> I think we all get that message .
> 
> There are plenty of other EVs around, pretty much every brand how has EVs in saloon all the way through to SUV format. MG does options if you want to save money, if money is no object the BMW iX is actually quite an accomplished SUV beating the X in the 'mosse' test which is no mean feat. Ofcourse if you want the 'best' EV saloon, Porsche will happily sell you a Taycan - but there is a 6 months waiting list.


There’s no small estate similar to my Skoda though as I stated…. All the MGs are huge (there’s one over the road) and still north of 30k. I have no desire or need for an SUV or a saloon


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> I think we all get that message .
> 
> There are plenty of other EVs around, pretty much every brand how has EVs in saloon all the way through to SUV format. MG does options if you want to save money, if money is no object the BMW iX is actually quite an accomplished SUV beating the X in the 'mosse' test which is no mean feat. Ofcourse if you want the 'best' EV saloon, Porsche will happily sell you a Taycan - but there is a 6 months waiting list.


We have a friend with an iX (500bhp +) that is due for delivery very shortly and another with a 700bhp + Taycan Cross due in May.

Absolutely bonkers - and I am far from anti-car.

Laughably, the soon to be Taycan owners wears their eco-credentials with pride. Has a 4 car garage and never turns all the lights off in there as it is so inconvenient as well as an all year round heated outdoor swimming pool.

Apologies for last para' being a bit of a rant aside but it does illustrate the rank hypocrisy of some EV buyers.

PS: not having a dig at you @gzoom 👍


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## gzoom (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> There’s no small estate similar to my Skoda though as I stated…. All the MGs are huge (there’s one over the road) and still north of 30k. I have no desire or need for an SUV or a saloon


 Have you actually seen the MGs?? They aren't 'Huge' at 4.3m long, 1.8m wide they are pretty much the same size as Ford Focus.....if you want think a Ford Focus is 'Huge' than we have to disagree on your definition of 'huge' .


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## gzoom (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Apologies for last para' being a bit of a rant aside but it does illustrate the rank hypocrisy of some EV buyers.



Am not sure anyone pretends EVs are 'green', I went EV because of the running costs. In many ways EV SUVs are 'perfect'. A conventional petrol SUV that can do 0-60 in 5 seconds will do at best 25mpg, along with eating through brake pads. I don't care how much ££££ you have, 25mpg is very noticeable as are £1000 brake pad/disc changes every 10K miles. An EV SUV costs barely any more to run than a smaller EVs.

Our Model X has done through only 1 set of front discs/pads in 50K miles, and costs roughly 3.5p/mile in fuel (even with current high electricity costs). Its probably why depreciation are so low, SUV body style, crazy performance, AND cheap running costs.....whats not to like


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

^^^
But the whole ethos of EV's is being at the forefront of the green revolution.

And in what world does producing oversized cars with 'crazy performance' make any sense?


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## fossyant (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> cheap running costs.....whats not to like



Stupidly high purchase prices !  And that goes for all EV's. You can buy a lot of fuel for the price difference. As a low mileage driver, they make no sense financially.


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## fossyant (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> But the whole ethos of EV's is part of the green revolution.
> 
> And in what world does oversized cars with 'crazy performance' make any sense?



When a 4 seater city ICE car/city EV will do !

You'd buy a city car and 'hire' a bigger car when needed. Most big cars contain just the driver. But that's way too sensible.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> ^^^
> But the whole ethos of EV's is being at the forefront of the green revolution.
> 
> And in what world does producing oversized cars with 'crazy performance' make any sense?


Some even have a green stripe on the number plates


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## nickyboy (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Yup - size matters to some people.
> 
> We've had people take the proverbial out of our small car choice despite knowing that we could easily afford to buy/run a big SUV.
> 
> ...


Except they aren't ****wits, they're rational people responding to the financial metrics they are presented with in choosing a car. 

If you want to stop people choosing to run large SUVs you have to change the financial metrics of ownership. At the moment it isn't sufficiently expensive to deter a significant cohort of the car owning public


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> Have you actually seen the MGs?? They aren't 'Huge' at 4.3m long, 1.8m wide they are pretty much the same size as Ford Focus.....if you want think a Ford Focus is 'Huge' than we have to disagree on your definition of 'huge' .


Yes, they have the SUV one over the road, it’s a big car for one person.
I expect the Focus has got bigger since I had one. I couldn't fit anything wider or longer than the Skoda on my drive and I don’t believe in parking on the street when I have a driveway. Is there an electric Focus estate that size...not a hatchback? Those dimesions are longer and wider than the Skoda estate. According to the Ford UK site there's no electric Focus yet anyhow (only a mild hybrid whatever that is)


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## cougie uk (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I think we should be taking the proverbial bull by the horns by banning big EV SUV's now.


And ban these ridiculous monster trucks that tradesmen have started to use. Whatever the fuel.


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## cougie uk (2 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Stupidly high purchase prices !  And that goes for all EV's. You can buy a lot of fuel for the price difference. As a low mileage driver, they make no sense financially.


I paid less for my second hand leaf than my pal paid for her mini of the same age. 

And fuel 1/10th the price. Makes a big difference if you have to drive a lot.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I paid less for my second hand leaf than my pal paid for her mini of the same age.
> 
> And fuel 1/10th the price. Makes a big difference if you have to drive a lot.


How much are replacement batteries?


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## SpokeyDokey (2 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Except they aren't ****wits, they're rational people responding to the financial metrics they are presented with in choosing a car.
> 
> If you want to stop people choosing to run large SUVs you have to change the financial metrics of ownership. At the moment it isn't sufficiently expensive to deter a significant cohort of the car owning public


I fully understand your financial rationale but imo large ESUV buyers are still ****wits for sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world albeit possibly unwittingly. 

I think we will have to agree to differ. 🙂


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## nickyboy (2 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I fully understand your financial rationale but imo large ESUV buyers are still ****wits for sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world albeit possibly unwittingly.
> 
> I think we will have to agree to differ. 🙂


History has shown that people generally make choices based on what's good for them, not the greater good. SUVs are just a very small part of this

If we want people out of SUVs, calling them ****wits isn't the answer. Governments have to surcharge certain vehicle types.

To give you a practical example I've ordered a PHEV. It's a medium SUV. It costs about £200 more per month to run that (incl lease costs) than say, a Nissan Leaf. That is a premium I'm willing to pay. Now if the premium was much higher I wouldn't have order it


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## figbat (2 Mar 2022)

I have been seeing the Hyundai Ioniq 5 around and find it quite compelling, so I took a look at their online configurator. You'd think that OEMs would take the opportunity of a brave new world to have a bit of fun with their cars, but no - here is the UK colour palette selection:





It looks more like a greyscale printer test sheet than a car paint selector.


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Yuk..still a saloon and looks like one. The colour is the only acceptable aesthetic
> I’ve sat in the back of a Tesla cab in Amsterdam. Complete lack of legroom and headroom, and struggled to actually get out of it with my non bending knee.
> never be one for me


I'm getting one of these (eventually), which I think look nice. Goodish boot space too.


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I'm getting one of these (eventually), which I think look nice. Goodish boot space too.
> 
> View attachment 633529


Nope ugly lights I’m afraid (I’m pretty fussy) and looks like the rear visibility would be poor with a bike in the back.
If you like it, that’s the key
I really do have no need for a new car. Petrol would need to increase even more and electricity to be free for me to recoup any outlay before my death! I don’t have a company car allowance for example.
My current car has depreciated about £6K in 10 years and doesn’t cost much in insurance, tax, upkeep


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> If you like it, that’s the key
> I really do have no need for a new car. Petrol would need to increase even more and electricity to be free for me to recoup any outlay before my death! I don’t have a company car allowance for example.


To be fair, Company car allowance is the sole reason I'm able to get one. Too expensive otherwise. But prices will go down*.

*unless Russia starts a nuclear war, in which case we won't be worrying about the price of cars


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> To be fair, Company car allowance is the sole reason I'm able to get one. Too expensive otherwise. But prices will go down*.
> 
> *unless Russia starts a nuclear war, in which case we won't be worrying about the price of cars


I could afford one, but I have no need or justification to change my car (especially as there's nothing I would want to own!). IF the perfect EV came along, I might consider, but I can't see that being the case for a while yet/if ever!


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> I barely charge our EV twice a week in day to day use. We actually have x2 32 commando sockets already installed so if needed to we can charge x2 EVs at once - The amp load will be around 70amps so well below the 100amp main fuse limit.
> 
> The only thing stopping us getting x2 EVs is ££££, and the fact our 2nd car only does 3000 miles a year so hardly worth changing till it breaks.



Still think it will be musical chairs moving cars around on the drive ! 2 chargers might not be an issue albeit I may need a new fuse board as well  . New kitchen going in hopefully this year and with only 2 spare ways I’m gonna run out !


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## icowden (2 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Still think it will be musical chairs moving cars around on the drive ! 2 chargers might not be an issue albeit I may need a new fuse board as well  . New kitchen going in hopefully this year and with only 2 spare ways I’m gonna run out !


You can always go back to the strategic solution of getting your kids to move out... !


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## Cerdic (2 Mar 2022)

I see vickster’s problem. The Skoda Fabia is basically a small hatchback similar to Fiestas, Corsas, Polos etc. Very few manufacturers make an estate version of this size of car anymore as the market for them seems to have died. It’s unlikely that an electric option will be a thing anytime soon.

Cars are getting bigger and bigger. It’s partly better crash protection, partly more gizmos squeezed in, and partly marketing. Todays VW Polo is bigger and heavier than a Mark 1 Golf for example!

And did I read it right? Somebody paid a grand for new brakes!!! How the hell can you pay that much for brakes? Pads and discs for all four wheels about £150 for parts and a mechanic with a whizzy gun can get them all swapped in under an hour. A bag my arse…


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## cougie uk (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> How much are replacement batteries?


How much are replacement engines ?


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> I see vickster’s problem. The Skoda Fabia is basically a small hatchback similar to Fiestas, Corsas, Polos etc. Very few manufacturers make an estate version of this size of car anymore as the market for them seems to have died. It’s unlikely that an electric option will be a thing anytime soon.
> 
> Cars are getting bigger and bigger. It’s partly better crash protection, partly more gizmos squeezed in, and partly marketing. Todays VW Polo is bigger and heavier than a Mark 1 Golf for example!
> 
> And did I read it right? Somebody paid a grand for new brakes!!! How the hell can you pay that much for brakes? Pads and discs for all four wheels about £150 for parts and a mechanic with a whizzy gun can get them all swapped in under an hour. A bag my arse…


Indeed, I don’t think there’s even a Golf or Focus estate any more, let alone an electric one (in fact it looks like VW have even done away with the e-golf, I had a Mk 5 Golf hatchback that got nicked, a similar length to the Fabia)
The Kia xCeed looks ok as a car but the electric Kia Nero is huge! I don’t want a small hatch or city car as I like to get the bike in with seats down and wheels on, but I don’t want an SUV either!


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How much are replacement engines ?


No idea, I’ve never had to replace one (a few k?), but I believe batteries have a finite lifespan and do need to be replaced? Whether that is age or mileage related, let me know, and also the cost? Not all IcE cars will ever need a new engine, but do all EVs eventually need a new battery?


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## cougie uk (2 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> No idea, I’ve never had to replace one (a few k?), but I believe batteries have a finite lifespan and do need to be replaced? Whether that is age or mileage related, let me know, and also the cost? Not all IcE cars will ever need a new engine, but do all EVs eventually need a new battery?


Nope. The batteries will likely last longer than the car. And even then they can be repurposed for storage.


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## gzoom (2 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> And did I read it right? Somebody paid a grand for new brakes!!! How the hell can you pay that much for brakes? Pads and discs for all four wheels about £150 for parts and a mechanic with a whizzy gun can get them all swapped in under an hour. A bag my arse…



I think you might want to realign your expectations how much modern brakes/suspension costs.

The 'real life' weight of something like a X5/Q7 is near 3 tons. Our Model X is closer to 3.5 tons. These cars can accelerate as fast as Ferraris from the 1990s, so stopping them is not an easy task.

Our X is essentially using the same Brembo brake setup as a Ferraris from the 1990s, and there is no way you are getting 4 discs and pads for £150......Whilst Ferrari (and BMW/Porsche etc) are now on to carbon-ceramic stuff, which makes £1k for pads + discs look cheap!!!

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17510598


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## MrGrumpy (2 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> You can always go back to the strategic solution of getting your kids to move out... !


Believe me I’m trying !!!


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## Cerdic (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> I think you might want to realign your expectations how much modern brakes/suspension costs.
> 
> The 'real life' weight of something like a X5/Q7 is near 3 tons. Our Model X is closer to 3.5 tons. These cars can accelerate as fast as Ferraris from the 1990s, so stopping them is not an easy task.
> 
> ...



Well, if you will drive a lorry!

’Normal’ cars don’t cost a bag for brakes! Parts for posh German stuff are notorious for being overpriced…


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## CXRAndy (2 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Parts for posh German stuff are notorious for being overpriced…


Only if you pay Stealer/Dealer prices. I saved £700 notes buying the same parts from Eurocarparts instead of Audi . This is going back many years ago.


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## FishFright (2 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How much are replacement engines ?





vickster said:


> No idea, I’ve never had to replace one (a few k?), but I believe batteries have a finite lifespan and do need to be replaced? Whether that is age or mileage related, let me know, and also the cost? Not all IcE cars will ever need a new engine, but do all EVs eventually need a new battery?



How much is 10 years of engine services , filters and parts ? I've no idea


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## Alex321 (2 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> I think you might want to realign your expectations how much modern brakes/suspension costs.
> 
> The 'real life' weight of something like a X5/Q7 is near 3 tons. Our Model X is closer to 3.5 tons. These cars can accelerate as fast as Ferraris from the 1990s, so stopping them is not an easy task.
> 
> ...


Well if you will drive something so big and expensive, you can expect expensive parts.

For a more average car, they may be more than @gzoom was suggesting, but still nowhere near £1000. 

For my Vauxhall Insignia, you can get rear brake & pad set for £92 , and front for £120, so £212 for all four wheels. Fitting will probably add an hour's labour charge.


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## Cerdic (2 Mar 2022)

Battery life is an interesting question. Experience of other batteries, from the old Evereadys to the ones in your phone and stuff, suggests that batteries will die at some point. So far, however, the ones in electric cars seem to be holding up remarkably well.

A couple of years back, Renault had some scheme that suggested that you would need new batteries after seven years at a cost of six grand. It didn’t go down well. Nobody wants to spend six bags to keep a seven year old hatchback on the road!

Really it’s still early days for older EVs, there aren’t enough about to make a proper judgement yet…


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## vickster (2 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> How much is 10 years of engine services , filters and parts ? I've no idea


Much less than the 30k at least it would cost me to change to an EV right now (even if there was one I wanted)
... I reckon I spend maybe £150-300 a year on servicing (last year was an exception as I needed a new water pump, didn't spend anything in 2020).

Insurance on a 30k+ EV would likely be somewhat more too than my £7k Skoda


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## midlife (2 Mar 2022)

Was thinking about what youngest son will do for transport in the future. 

Wants to learn to drive in an automatic / electric car next year, not many driving schools around our area that fits the bill. 

What to get if he passes his test? Maybe the government should start manufacturing a "peoples car".... Cheap, electric and suitable for local commuting. A sort of modern Trabant?


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## gzoom (3 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Well if you will drive something so big and expensive, you can expect expensive parts.



That is why EVs are so amazing, you can have crazy performance with hardly any more cost than 'normal' cars. Our 3ton+ SUV, with a 0-60 time of sub 5 seconds costs me £0 VED, 3.5p/mile in fuel, apart from brakes only 1 air con service in 5 years, and only used one set of brake pads in 50k miles. Even insurance is cheap at £350/year.

The full fat 'plaid' version will do 0-60 in 2.4 seconds, outrun most hypercars and have the same running costs as my car.

In comparison a Porsch Cayenne turbo with similar performance will be doing sub 20mpg which is 30p+/mile in fuel, get through at least twice the number of brakes due to a lack of regenerative braking, and need yearly servicing.

EVs are the holy grill of performance cars, fast, but also cheap to run .


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## Cerdic (3 Mar 2022)

midlife said:


> Was thinking about what youngest son will do for transport in the future.
> 
> Wants to learn to drive in an automatic / electric car next year, not many driving schools around our area that fits the bill.
> 
> What to get if he passes his test? Maybe the government should start manufacturing a "peoples car".... Cheap, electric and suitable for local commuting. A sort of modern Trabant?



Looks like help is on its way…

https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/...-vehicles-and-they-have-their-sights-on-europ

The one pictured in the article sells for about £4 K in China. 

I thought this bit from the article was interesting…

“Current European Union regulations greatly favour the profitability of heavier and pricier EV’s, leaving almost no room for smaller European cars to make a decent profit.”

…the power of vested interests at work?


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> That is why EVs are so amazing, you can have crazy performance with hardly any more cost than 'normal' cars. Our 3ton+ SUV, with a 0-60 time of sub 5 seconds costs me £0 VED, 3.5p/mile in fuel, apart from brakes only 1 air con service in 5 years, and only used one set of brake pads in 50k miles. Even insurance is cheap at £350/year.
> 
> The full fat 'plaid' version will do 0-60 in 2.4 seconds, outrun most hypercars and have the same running costs as my car.
> 
> ...


If your car is so fast and heavy why is it much easier on brakes than the equivalent petrol car?

I know nothing about Electric vehicles as my interests lie firmly with old classic stuff so I'm not trying to be argumentative. I assume this car of yours is quite expensive to buy in the first place?


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## CXRAndy (3 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> Really it’s still early days for older EVs, there aren’t enough about to make a proper judgement yet…


Just like the early combustion engine vehicles. Didn't stop those being made and sold by the millions


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## CXRAndy (3 Mar 2022)

Talking about mutli EV chargers at home. They work in a Master Slave setup, sharing the available power. I have 3 22kW 3 phase Zappi going in at our new home this month. They will share 32A 3 phase supply.


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## figbat (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> If your car is so fast and heavy why is it much easier on brakes than the equivalent petrol car?
> 
> I know nothing about Electric vehicles as my interests lie firmly with old classic stuff so I'm not trying to be argumentative. I assume this car of yours is quite expensive to buy in the first place?


Because an EV does most of its retardation through regenerative braking, using the motor as a generator which slows the car down as it puts energy back into the battery. Under most conditions you can drive without touching the brake pedal as the motor will bring the car to a complete stop just by lifting off. I rarely use the brake pedal although the car does sometimes blend in real brakes with regenerative braking, particularly if regen is not available (eg the battery is already full) and also to balance front/rear wheel braking (mine is only FWD).


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## cougie uk (3 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Much less than the 30k at least it would cost me to change to an EV right now (even if there was one I wanted)
> ... I reckon I spend maybe £150-300 a year on servicing (last year was an exception as I needed a new water pump, didn't spend anything in 2020).
> 
> Insurance on a 30k+ EV would likely be somewhat more too than my £7k Skoda


Do you always buy brand new ? That's a huge cost there then.


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## vickster (3 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Do you always buy brand new ? That's a huge cost there then.


Not bought a brand new car for many years (only once actually in 1997), but used they don't seem much off the list price (I'd want one no more than a couple of years old). I certainly wouldn't do on a lease or the never never


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## icowden (3 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Do you always buy brand new ? That's a huge cost there then.


To be fair to @vickster the second hand EV market is both limited and expensive at the moment compared to the second hand ICE market. There's also probably a higher level of worry due to the repeated mantras that somehow the battery is going to stop working as soon as a car is second hand.


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## vickster (3 Mar 2022)

If I can get a new car with fully warranty for say 30k, but a year or two old used for 27k say, I'd go new.
I expect if I am in the market for a new car in 5 years say, I may well go electric (if there's something appealing)... if I needed to in a year, probably not


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## Cerdic (3 Mar 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Just like the early combustion engine vehicles. Didn't stop those being made and sold by the millions



Well I was talking about battery life. EVs haven’t been sold in reasonable numbers for very long. It will be a while before the average person will be confidant buying an older EV because his mate Dave has a twelve year old Leaf and his batteries are still good.

The analogy with early internal combustion powered cars doesn’t really hold up; their competition was the horse! Even then, it was still forty-odd years before ‘ordinary’ people started having cars.

EVs should be an easier sell because people are already using something very similar! EVs are simpler to drive, cheaper to run and maintain, ranges before recharging are much better now, and the recharging network is starting to be very visible giving more confidence to the worriers.

The big thing holding back sales, in my view, is the initial purchase price. Even a Fiat 500 is thirty grand! That’s insane money! The Chinese can make a little city commuter for £4000.


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## lazybloke (3 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyone got more than one EV charger at home ? Son No1 is looking at a new car an EV . Thinking ahead , that’s going to be a PITA if more than one wants to use the charger ?


Get a 2nd fast charging point fitted. A typical domestic supply can cope with 3 of these being used simultaneously.
Feel free to subsidise your son's motoring costs if you wish - but better if he factors in the charger installation costs when he budgets to purchase his EV. 

Or he could save money and trickle-charge from any 13amp socket. It's a simple and quick DIY job to fit a waterproof 13amp box on the outside of a house - Amazon sell them as extension leads, so no need to involve an electrician.

Otherwise, I imagine there are EV owners who have no driveway or dedicated parking space, and cope by using public chargers. 




Or, simply share the existing charger at home. Stepping outside the front door to swap charging cables doesn't sound onerous.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (3 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I had a look at current EVs...not one of them appealed to me in terms of practicality or more importantly aesthetics! They're all huge, fugly or both!!  Once there is a small, good looking estate with decent range at a sensible price, I may consider!


My friend has just ordered a MG EV5 which is an estate with 200+miles. I haven't seen it yet but his comment was large enough boot for golf clubs etc


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## Scottish Scrutineer (3 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Yes, they have the SUV one over the road, it’s a big car for one person.
> I expect the Focus has got bigger since I had one. I couldn't fit anything wider or longer than the Skoda on my drive and I don’t believe in parking on the street when I have a driveway. Is there an electric Focus estate that size...not a hatchback? Those dimesions are longer and wider than the Skoda estate. According to the Ford UK site there's no electric Focus yet anyhow (only a mild hybrid whatever that is)


https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/puma
EV, about Focus size, but an SUV. BTH Estates are very much a niche segment these days


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## vickster (3 Mar 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> https://www.ford.co.uk/cars/puma
> EV, about Focus size, but an SUV. BTH Estates are very much a niche segment these days


So I'll be sticking with ICE for now (until the market sees the error of its ways )


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## Electric_Andy (3 Mar 2022)

I watch a Youtube guy called ChrisFix. He made a video about reconditioning a Prius (hybrid?) battery. I'm sure it would be a similar task on any EV, would just depend on whether you can get hold of the correct battery pack from a crashed car or something, or if you're willing to buy new battery internals (if that's a thing). I suspect that this sort of job is not well known throughout our network of privateer garages but in time it might be run of the mill stuff. It certianly doesn't look as labour intensive or tech-dependant as replacing a modern ICE.

View: https://youtu.be/Q3RCdrh666w


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## MrGrumpy (3 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Get a 2nd fast charging point fitted. A typical domestic supply can cope with 3 of these being used simultaneously.
> Feel free to subsidise your son's motoring costs if you wish - but better if he factors in the charger installation costs when he budgets to purchase his EV.


what makes you think I’m paying ! Believe me I ain’t a cash cow ! If he does indeed go ahead it’s his cost to bare . However I’m trying my best to convince him not too !


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## gzoom (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> If your car is so fast and heavy why is it much easier on brakes than the equivalent petrol car?
> 
> I know nothing about Electric vehicles as my interests lie firmly with old classic stuff so I'm not trying to be argumentative. I assume this car of yours is quite expensive to buy in the first place?



As others have said its because most of the slowing down is done by the motor as it uses the kinetic energy to recharge the battery. Actually if driven 'sensibly' the brake pads/discs on any EV can last 100K miles, but equally even just a half a dozen hard stops from high speeds will be enough to wear out the brake pads on modern SUVs.

The other surprising thing is how good traction control systems are on EVs. I use to get through a set of tyres quite easily on a higher powered combustion car after 10-15K, with our current EV tyres are lasting 25K+ miles. I think its because its actually very hard to get wheel spin in an EV with a decent traction control system.

Cost of our car was high, but thats not different from any other higher performance combustion cars. All 'fast' fully sized SUVs seem to start at around £70K these days regardless of powertrain .


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## fossyant (3 Mar 2022)

Which car survey shows leccy cars almost twice as likely to break down, and Tesla's being the worse.  Apparently things like motors and batteries are good, but the software is an issue.


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## icowden (3 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Which car survey shows leccy cars almost twice as likely to break down, and Tesla's being the worse.  Apparently things like motors and batteries are good, but the software is an issue.


I think it's either a flawed survey (although a link to it would be useful) or you have misinterpreted relaibility as "breaks down". EVs have very little that can break down and seldom do. Breakdowns will usually be due to tyres (punctures). Reliability on the other hand is different. It's well known that Tesla have issues with quality control and minor fixes being needed. But they still seem to rate the highest for satisfaction...


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## fossyant (3 Mar 2022)

OK break down, as "not going" - twice as likely to 'not work'. Survey is in the press. Tesla being worse out of all leccy models. Software seems to be a big issue.

It's why JRL cars are crap, they 'break' too often. God, an electric JRL car will be a nightmare.


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## Alex321 (3 Mar 2022)

This is the Which press release of the survey
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2022/0...-suv-you-can-buy-is-electric-and-made-by-kia/

One thing to note though in the accompanying text is that they say the results are heavily influenced by Tesla being by far the most unreliable, but also the most popular - accounting for a quarter of all Electric cars.


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## shep (3 Mar 2022)

Not that it really matters to me but, if you want an electric car then have one and if you don't, well don't. 

Why argue the t*ss if you're not interested in owning one?


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## gzoom (3 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> OK break down, as "not going" - twice as likely to 'not work'. Survey is in the press. Tesla being worse out of all leccy models. Software seems to be a big issue.



Humm.......You might want to check 'facts' on that survey. Tesla actually doesn't have great mechanical reliability as the initial engineering of some suspension parts are now on version 5-6 (the latest versions are actually very reliable).

Software is where Tesla is heads and shoulders above everyone else, want to depress your self watching the latest news on the BBC whilst waiting for after school club to finish, why not? 







Want to see how much £ you have spent on charging the last over the last month from the phone app....why not.






Karaoke for the passengers to keep everyone happy in the car.....again why not? There are lots of sticks you can use to beat up Tesla, but software, nope that is one area Tesla is in a totally different league.


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## cougie uk (3 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> Humm.......You might want to check 'facts' on that survey. Tesla actually doesn't have great mechanical reliability as the initial engineering of some suspension parts are now on version 5-6 (the latest versions are actually very reliable).
> 
> Software is where Tesla is heads and shoulders above everyone else, want to depress your self watching the latest news on the BBC whilst waiting for after school club to finish, why not?
> 
> ...


You spendthrift ! 

My wife would normally fill her tank each week - used to be £40 or so but that's a lot more now.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Mar 2022)

Can I presume the videos etc only play whilst parked ? Other than that I see that as a major distraction ? I can play Films through the system on my car , I’ve never ever done it ever ! Each to their own . The really good thing that I like with Tesla is the security cameras and probably the drive . The rest is gimmicky !


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## SpokeyDokey (3 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can I presume the videos etc only play whilst parked ? Other than that I see that as a major distraction ? I can play Films through the system on my car , I’ve never ever done it ever ! Each to their own . The really good thing that I like with Tesla is the security cameras and probably the drive . The rest is gimmicky !


Wnat do you think of the Tesla fart noises? 

AFAIK it is in emissions testing mode and a variety of schoolboy humour noises are available.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Mar 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Wnat do you think of the Tesla fart noises?
> 
> AFAIK it is in emissions testing mode and a variety of schoolboy humour noises are available.


Yes my bro in law played the fart noises and the Christmas flashy light bollocks . Anyway each to their one that fact that my boys liked it says it all !


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## classic33 (3 Mar 2022)

If electric cars were to replace every car the estimated power requirements would be another six, at least, of the Hinckley Power station currently under construction.
Can we afford those extra power stations, and where will they be built?
If all vehicles, vans & lorries, were to be replaced add another three.


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## Cerdic (3 Mar 2022)

I’ve just had a little browse of that Which survey.

Not much of a surprise in it. Most faults on cars these days, irrespective of motive power, is the electronics. Tesla sell a big percentage of all electric cars sold. Tesla is American. American cars are notorious for shonky build quality!

We‘ve got Kias at work. Very high quality feel and excellent reliability, almost as good as Toyota these days.


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## lazybloke (3 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> Humm.......You might want to check 'facts' on that survey. Tesla actually doesn't have great mechanical reliability as the initial engineering of some suspension parts are now on version 5-6 (the latest versions are actually very reliable).
> 
> Software is where Tesla is heads and shoulders above everyone else, want to depress your self watching the latest news on the BBC whilst waiting for after school club to finish, why not?
> 
> ...


Impressive, but those are entertainment and information apps - surely irrelevant to the ability of the vehicle to drive, or to it's reliability. Likely a different computer too.


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## icowden (3 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Impressive, but those are entertainment and information apps - surely irrelevant to the ability of the vehicle to drive, or to it's reliability. Likely a different computer too.


I think the Tesla computer unit is a single unit controlling the whole car. A Tesla is more akin to a smartphone with wheels than it is to a car. This is why they are vastly outselling their rivals who are still trying to fit computers into a car, rather than wheels on a smartphone.


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## Alex321 (3 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> Humm.......You might want to check 'facts' on that survey. Tesla actually doesn't have great mechanical reliability as the initial engineering of some suspension parts are now on version 5-6 (the latest versions are actually very reliable).
> 
> Software is where Tesla is heads and shoulders above everyone else, want to depress your self watching the latest news on the BBC whilst waiting for after school club to finish, why not?
> 
> ...



None of that is the software which keeps the car going.


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## Alex321 (3 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Not that it really matters to me but, if you want an electric car then have one and if you don't, well don't.
> 
> Why argue the t*ss if you're not interested in owning one?


Because if we want a car at all, we will not have the choice in a few years - as per the title of the thread.


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> None of that is the software which keeps the car going.


It kind of is. The Tegra 3 (or Intel Atom) powered smart screen in the Tesla is fully integrated with the various processors and chipsets that control all car operations, including the incredibly powerful AI chips for Full Self Drive (if you have them fitted). 

https://venturebeat.com/2019/04/22/...p-is-six-times-more-powerful-than-its-rivals/

All of the software has to work together with the hardware for the car to work. It's not just a battery and some electric motors.


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## cougie uk (4 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> If electric cars were to replace every car the estimated power requirements would be another six, at least, of the Hinckley Power station currently under construction.
> Can we afford those extra power stations, and where will they be built?
> If all vehicles, vans & lorries, were to be replaced add another three.


That's rubbish though isn't it. 

Does it assume every electric car would be charging at the same time ?

Please show your sources.


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## lazybloke (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I think the Tesla computer unit is a single unit controlling the whole car. A Tesla is more akin to a smartphone with wheels than it is to a car. This is why they are vastly outselling their rivals who are still trying to fit computers into a car, rather than wheels on a smartphone.


Fair enough about thendesign approach, but I'd rather have safety critical software running on different silicon than the blingy entertainment sh#t


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## gzoom (4 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Impressive, but those are entertainment and information apps - surely irrelevant to the ability of the vehicle to drive, or to it's reliability. Likely a different computer too.



The amount of software Tesla deploy to run the cars is mind-boggling, however I've literally never heard of a 'software' issues making a Tesla 'undrivable'.

The CPUs needed for driving is 100% independent of the infotainment. You can 'reset" the infotainment computer whilst driving and all the mission critical stuff like brakes, lights, accelerator etc all still work.


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## CXRAndy (4 Mar 2022)

For minor niggles they're on par with the best of German/Japanese vehicles. The running cost and service is where they win by a country mile. Our Nissan Leaf 40kW used one set of set of tyres around 48,000 miles. No brakes pads or discs, no fluid to change in the 3 years we owned it sold with over 70,000 miles. 

New Nissan 62kW bought with 3000 miles in late Nov 21 now with 12,000 miles on the clock.


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Because if we want a car at all, we will not have the choice in a few years - as per the title of the thread.


A NEW one maybe, I doubt every car on the road in the country will need to be electric any time soon.


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## cougie uk (4 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Because if we want a car at all, we will not have the choice in a few years - as per the title of the thread.


Should you have the right to throw out noxious fumes as you drive past kids ?


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## Alex321 (4 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> A NEW one maybe, I doubt every car on the road in the country will need to be electric any time soon.


I suspect it may not take as long after the new rules come in as some people think.

As EVs become the more common type of vehicle, petrol stations will become uneconomic to run - they already struggle without attached shops. And if it starts to become difficult to refuel, ICE cars will quite quickly become unattractive.


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## Alex321 (4 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Should you have the right to throw out noxious fumes as you drive past kids ?


Can you think of any possible reason for posting that as a response to what I wrote?

It is a p[art of the argument for going electric, but nothing to do with what you responded to.


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I suspect it may not take as long after the new rules come in as some people think.
> 
> As EVs become the more common type of vehicle, petrol stations will become uneconomic to run - they already struggle without attached shops. And if it starts to become difficult to refuel, ICE cars will quite quickly become unattractive.


Well let's hope you're wrong as there are plenty of people out there that either can't afford an electric car or don't want one, also what about motorcycles or classic vehicles?

Will it just be a case of f**k you, too bad!


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

Cerdic said:


> I’ve just had a little browse of that Which survey.
> 
> Not much of a surprise in it. Most faults on cars these days, irrespective of motive power, is the electronics. Tesla sell a big percentage of all electric cars sold. Tesla is American. American cars are notorious for shonky build quality!
> 
> We‘ve got Kias at work. Very high quality feel and excellent reliability, almost as good as Toyota these days.



Yeh, but don't diss the Tesla fanboys, nor JRL drivers. 

I'll stick to commuting by BIKE - yeh, stick that up your non-existant tail pipes, you planet burning leccy car drivers (via the gas power station).


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Should you have the right to throw out noxious fumes as you drive past kids ?



Erm, leccy car drivers just throw the fumes out via the power station. Get a bike !


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Erm, leccy car drivers just throw the fumes out via the power station. Get a bike !


Or exploit the people mining the stuff to make them batteries.


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Or exploit the people mining the stuff to make them batteries.



Especially those leccy bike riders !  OK we're getting silly !!! 👅


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## figbat (4 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Or exploit the people mining the stuff to make them batteries.


This gets mentioned a lot, but what's the truth? Got a source? There are certainly challenges associated with the local environmental impact of lithium and rare earth metal mining, but my (limited) experience of commercial mining is that is it highly professional and significantly mechanised. This idea that children are slaving away down a mine picking out nuggets of neodymium with their teeth is somewhat over-used and probably unrealistic (but it serves the point though, right?).

That said, there are also local impacts of extracting hydrocarbons too (and we don't hear about kids down the oil wells slopping crude out with a bucket).


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## fossyant (4 Mar 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> For minor niggles they're on par with the best of German/Japanese vehicles. The running cost and service is where they win by a country mile. Our Nissan Leaf 40kW used one set of set of tyres around 48,000 miles. No brakes pads or discs, no fluid to change in the 3 years we owned it sold with over 70,000 miles.
> 
> New Nissan 62kW bought with 3000 miles in late Nov 21 now with 11,000 miles on the clock.



That's cos it's a Nissan. We own two ICE Nissans and they are trouble free. Mine has just had it's first set of rear discs, and I'll probably do the fronts this year - 140,000 miles...


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## figbat (4 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> ...I've literally never heard of a 'software' issues making a Tesla 'undrivable'.


Ahem... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306


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## figbat (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> A Tesla is more akin to a smartphone with wheels than it is to a car. This is why they are vastly outselling their rivals who are still trying to fit computers into a car, rather than wheels on a smartphone.


And this is why it's a great smart device wrapped in a flaky car - build quality etc is not up to 'traditional' car standards (some panel gaps, for example, are comical). However, people are buying the device for its smart capabilities, which it does well. Traditional OEMs are great at making cars and aligning panels but playing catch-up on the digital infrastructure.


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## shep (4 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> This gets mentioned a lot, but what's the truth? Got a source? There are certainly challenges associated with the local environmental impact of lithium and rare earth metal mining, but my (limited) experience of commercial mining is that is it highly professional and significantly mechanised. This idea that children are slaving away down a mine picking out nuggets of neodymium with their teeth is somewhat over-used and probably unrealistic (but it serves the point though, right?).
> 
> That said, there are also local impacts of extracting hydrocarbons too (and we don't hear about kids down the oil wells slopping crude out with a bucket).


https://amp.theguardian.com/environ...s-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future


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## vickster (4 Mar 2022)

I know what's important to me when choosing a car over say a mobile phone! My car still has a CD player, no built in sat nav and proper dials and knobs


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## gzoom (4 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Ahem... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306



You don't need the Tesla 'app' to 'drive' the car. Infact relying on the 'app' which required internet connectivity to start/drive the car is simply a bit silly, how would you get into the car if you lost internet connectivity to the car??

Pretty much every Tesla owner has either a key or key card or phone-key (which is different from the app).

I think its good that Tesla allows you 'drive' the car via the App, essentially in theory you can drive/start any Tesla just by downloading the App and knowing the owners login details, however relying on it day to day is like leaving your locked house without a key and counting on your neighbour been in with a spare key when you get home.

This is the app function that went down a short period in the article you linked.....So right now if you can guess my Tesla login/password you can find my car (because the car reports its locations), unlock it, and 'remote start' to drive it away. As I've said, Tesla's software integration is beyond what anyone else can do right now and by a fair margin.

What more amazing is if you take the car in to a Tesla dealer, the dealers can do the same but *WITHOUT *needing your password/login!! No need to give the dealer the key card either, these cars are constant reporting back to the main Tesla network. If you like to wear tin hats you might want to consider the implications of this level of 'connectivity'.

Bare in mind the back ground software needed to 'summon' the car remotely to your location from any where is already written. If/when 'autonomy' is achieved these cars already have the pre-requisite software base to move from A to B without any human physical interaction! Bash Tesla on any other areas, but software is what differentiates Tesla from everyone else that make cars.


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## classic33 (4 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> You don't need the Tesla 'app' to 'drive' the car. Infact relying on the 'app' which required internet connectivity to start/drive the car is simply a bit silly, how would you get into the car if you lost internet connectivity to the car??
> 
> Pretty much every Tesla owner has either a key or key card or phone-key (which is different from the app).
> 
> ...


The full self drive is optional, at cost, and requires a monthly subscription to use.

Tesla have been promising self driving cars for a while now.


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## potsy (4 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I know what's important to me when choosing a car over say a mobile phone! My car still has a CD player, no built in sat nav and proper dials and knobs


Got to admit the lack of traditional dials and nobs puts me off too.. 

Unlike you I actually do like the look of the VW id3, but the gimmicky controls and touch/swipe style dashboard controls really doesn't appeal.. 

I have a 3 year old petrol car and have no real need for change, will be 2 or 3 years before I consider replacing it, and even then it might only be for another more economical petrol/diesel..


----------



## gzoom (4 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> The full self drive is optional, at cost, and requires a monthly subscription to use.
> 
> Tesla have been promising self driving cars for a while now.



Ofcourse, but you still need the ability to put in the software backbone that can enable things such as remote start etc.

As far as I know no other car manufacturer is even close interms of this level of software integration/connectivity.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I know what's important to me when choosing a car over say a mobile phone! My car still has a CD player, no built in sat nav and proper dials and knobs


All the big SUV's squeezing walkers and cyclists into the hedgerows on our skinny local lanes have knobs in too. 😁


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## midlife (4 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> The full self drive is optional, at cost, and requires a monthly subscription to use.
> 
> Tesla have been promising self driving cars for a while now.



I didn't think Tesla had a fully autonomous vehicle, just their version of it's "Autopilot" ?


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## classic33 (4 Mar 2022)

midlife said:


> I didn't think Tesla had a fully autonomous vehicle, just their version of it's "Autopilot" ?


They don't. It's "driver assistance" which still requires a driver behind the wheel.
It's part of a larger package, but the main selling point. Even if it can't be used.


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## cougie uk (4 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Erm, leccy car drivers just throw the fumes out via the power station. Get a bike !


I pay for a renewable electric tariff. Some people even charge off their own solar panels.


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Ahem... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59357306


Nope. Sorry - you'll need to try harder. That was an app issue affecting a relatively small number of users where Tesla drivers couldn't unlock / start their cars with their smartphones. They had to use the key-fob instead. Hardly undriveable. Slightly problematic for people away from home without their keyfob, and a lesson in over reliance on their smartphone.


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

midlife said:


> I didn't think Tesla had a fully autonomous vehicle, just their version of it's "Autopilot" ?


They have a car with the potential to be fully autonomous. Their FSD chip is a fully AI driven and years ahead of any of its rivals.
Unfortunately it can only be used fully in the USA at the moment.


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## vickster (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> They have a car with the potential to be fully autonomous. Their FSD chip is a fully AI driven and years ahead of any of its rivals.
> Fortunately it can only be used fully in the USA at the moment.


FTFY  (IMO)


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> FTFY  (IMO)


It is quite impressive though:-


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQG2IynmRf8


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## MrGrumpy (4 Mar 2022)

https://news.sky.com/story/electric-car-prices-are-about-to-plummet-heres-why-12536407


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## Milkfloat (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> It is quite impressive though:-
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQG2IynmRf8



Yeah - really impressive.
25mins 30secs.


View: https://youtu.be/N_iQSRMzmRQ?t=1527


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## classic33 (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> They have a car with the potential to be fully autonomous. Their FSD chip is a fully AI driven and years ahead of any of its rivals.
> Unfortunately it can only be used fully in the USA at the moment.


Not even in the US. As they,Tesla, don't class it as a Class 4 vehicle. Including their Beta version.


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> Not even in the US. As they,Tesla, don't class it as a Class 4 vehicle. Including their Beta version.


They can use it fully. With a subscription. It has not yet reached level 4, but they can use the current functionality fully.


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> Yeah - really impressive.
> 25mins 30secs.


I said pretty impressive, not perfect. And you are comparing different software versions.
Show me another model of car that can drive from San Francisco to LA without any intervention and deal with complex intersections, without needing driver input.


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## classic33 (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> They can use it fully. With a subscription. It has not yet reached level 4, but they can use the current functionality fully.


The only way you can use it is to buy it as an "extra" with a monthly charge, currently sitting at $199, soon to be raised.

_"Tesla's Full-Self Driving option, also known as FSD, is a premium package that includes the Autopilot functions, and more sophisticated features like automatic lane-changing, stop light recognition, and "smart summon" which lets drivers call their car from a parking spot to come pick them up, using their smartphone and the Tesla app like a remote control. *Despite the name, it does not today allow cars to drive themselves automatically with no driver intervention."*_

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/07/elon-musk-says-tesla-will-raise-price-of-fsd-to-12000-in-us.html


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## icowden (4 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> The only way you can use it is to buy it as an "extra" with a monthly charge, currently sitting at $199, soon to be raised.
> 
> _"Tesla's Full-Self Driving option, also known as FSD, is a premium package that includes the Autopilot functions, and more sophisticated features like automatic lane-changing, stop light recognition, and "smart summon" which lets drivers call their car from a parking spot to come pick them up, using their smartphone and the Tesla app like a remote control. *Despite the name, it does not today allow cars to drive themselves automatically with no driver intervention."*_



Then we are agreed. Customers in the USA can use the power of Full Self Drive to its fullest extent permitted by the existing software, but not in the UK. The car has the potential to be fully autonomous as Musk has ensured that the technology built in and the power of the FSD chips will permit that. In the US people are able to have FSD enabled. They then receive OTA updates regularly enhancing the experience and improving (usually!) FSD Autopilot. At the moment, although the car can drive itself and deal with a huge number of situations, the driver must have their hand on the wheel and be prepared to disengage FSD / Autopilot. 

The subscription issue is a bit more complex.

If you have purchased FSD for $10,000 then you need no subscription.
If you want FSD but can't afford $10,000 then you can have it on subscription intead:-
If you have a model with enhanced autopilot then you can take out a subscription to upgrade to FSD for $99 per month
If you have a model with basic autopilot then you can take out a subscription to upgrade to FSD for $199 per month
If you don't have the FSD V3 chips then you can pay $1500 to install the hardware, and a subscription thereafter.


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## classic33 (4 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> *Then we are agreed.* Customers in the USA can use the power of Full Self Drive to its fullest extent permitted by the existing software, but not in the UK. The car has the potential to be fully autonomous as Musk has ensured that the technology built in and the power of the FSD chips will permit that. In the US people are able to have FSD enabled. They then receive OTA updates regularly enhancing the experience and improving (usually!) FSD Autopilot. At the moment, although the car can drive itself and deal with a huge number of situations, the driver must have their hand on the wheel and be prepared to disengage FSD / Autopilot.
> 
> The subscription issue is a bit more complex.
> 
> ...


No.
The owners allowed to purchase the option aren't allowed to use it to it fullest extent as the law doesn't allow it. It isn't a Class 4 vehicle.


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## icowden (5 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> No.
> The owners allowed to purchase the option aren't allowed to use it to it fullest extent as the law doesn't allow it. It isn't a Class 4 vehicle.


Yes. They are allowed to use it to the fullest extent as allowed by the software in the vehicle. It doesn't matter what class it is. The vehicle software requires you to drive it as a class 2 autonomous vehicle. It has the potential however, if the software AI learns enough, to become a Class 3, 4 or 5 vehicle.

You can't use features that the software hasn't been programmed to let you use.


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## classic33 (5 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes. They are allowed to use it to the fullest extent as allowed by the software in the vehicle. It doesn't matter what class it is. The vehicle software requires you to drive it as a class 2 autonomous vehicle. It has the potential however, if the software AI learns enough, to become a Class 3, 4 or 5 vehicle.
> 
> You can't use features that the software hasn't been programmed to let you use.


The law says no!
As does Elon Musk. The vehicles are Class 2, not Class 4.


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## gzoom (5 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> The law says no!
> As does Elon Musk. The vehicles are Class 2, not Class 4.



I love AP 'discussions', all of this surely confirms just how far ahead Tesla is with software versus any other car brand.

To suggest Tesla has a software reliability issue is like saying cycling is bad for the environment. Some people will argue about everything and anything, it doesn't make them correct.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Mar 2022)

Just to change direction slightly from Tesla……. 


Went to the local Peugeot garage to look at a 208 EV . My lad has 2013 208 , it’s been a fairly reliable car it’s needing some work done this year but trade in value is nuts considering what we paid for it. Anyway here is the problem for those trying to get on to the bandwagon £28k for an eff…in 208 !!!! The petrol one is £10k cheaper !!! That is absolutely stupid. It’s not even top spec trim and range is rubbish but probably fine for him .


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## cougie uk (5 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just to change direction slightly from Tesla…….
> 
> 
> Went to the local Peugeot garage to look at a 208 EV . My lad has 2013 208 , it’s been a fairly reliable car it’s needing some work done this year but trade in value is nuts considering what we paid for it. Anyway here is the problem for those trying to get on to the bandwagon £28k for an eff…in 208 !!!! The petrol one is £10k cheaper !!! That is absolutely stupid. It’s not even top spec trim and range is rubbish but probably fine for him .


Resale of the Petrol one will be buttons in a few years though.
1/10 the cost in fuel, less maintenance, zero emissions tax.

Depending on your mileages that ten k difference will come down with time.


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## icowden (5 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> The law says no!
> As does Elon Musk. The vehicles are Class 2, not Class 4.


I think you are arguing a point that hasn't been made.

I'll try again.

The cars have the *technology *to reach class 4
The cars have *software* that enables class 2
Users can use the full power of FSD Self Driving *as permitted by the Tesla software, *in conjunction with local laws. This means at present, FSD Self drive is only available to drivers in the USA. But they can use if *fully* as *permitted by the software*.

Only the *developers* can unleash the power to reach class 4 and that is dependent on the AI learning enough.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Resale of the Petrol one will be buttons in a few years though.
> 1/10 the cost in fuel, less maintenance, zero emissions tax.
> 
> Depending on your mileages that ten k difference will come down with time.


Resale values is a guess right now I did put up a link that costs may come down for EVs but that’s a stumbling block right now !! I just could not believe the price though it’s silly .


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## lazybloke (5 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> The amount of software Tesla deploy to run the cars is mind-boggling, however I've literally never heard of a 'software' issues making a Tesla 'undrivable'.


Apparently Which? think otherwise. If I owned a Tesla I'd read that report pretty quickly. 

I'd love a Tesla, they are truly ground-breaking, and represent a massive (and overdue) paradigm shift in the car industry. 
But the various stories of paint issues, rust, poor assembly quality and poor reliability need to be addressed. All those things will improve, every new model will be better, but some of the press reports are absolutely shocking for a premium brand.

And is it true that many driver controls are only accessible via touch-screen menus? WTAF? 


And as for self-driving... Yes, it has promise. It reacts faster than a human, it well never fall asleep at the wheel, it will never deliberately break the law, never suffer from road rage. All good things.

Doesn't mean it's perfect. Far from it, as can be seen when one kills people by driving itself into a tree/barrier/pedestrian/lorry/parked car, etc. 
We all know software isn't perfect, and neither is the underlying hardware.


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## icowden (5 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> I'd love a Tesla, they are truly ground-breaking, and represent a massive (and overdue) paradigm shift in the car industry.
> But the various stories of paint issues, rust, poor assembly quality and poor reliability need to be addressed. All those things will improve, every new model will be better, but some of the press reports are absolutely shocking for a premium brand.


The issues are constantly being ironed out and many of the key issues tend to be with older cars (but by no means all).



lazybloke said:


> And is it true that many driver controls are only accessible via touch-screen menus? WTAF?


Yes Pretty much every driver control is accessed via the touch screen. The Tesla has no need of buttons. When you have driven one, you will understand why. The only buttons (I think) are for the windows. The driver has a wheel and stalks for indicator, windscreen washer and high / low beam. There are two scroll wheels on the steering wheel. 



lazybloke said:


> And as for self-driving... Yes, it has promise. It reacts faster than a human, it well never fall asleep at the wheel, it will never deliberately break the law, never suffer from road rage. All good things. Doesn't mean it's perfect.


I don't think anyone suggested it was. Just that it was leagues ahead of its rivals.


lazybloke said:


> Far from it, as can be seen when one kills people by driving itself into a tree/barrier/pedestrian/lorry/parked car, etc.


Although these are mostly ID10T errors, and caused by the driver not being vigilant.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Mar 2022)

I had a drive of my mother‘s ID3 this week. Very weird not having a gear stick and the way you select drive, neutral, reverse. Disappointed it had manual seat adjustments and not electric. Certainly has plenty of torque.


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## CXRAndy (5 Mar 2022)

My Model S has all the hardware including HW3 computer for FSD. Its fully paid up, way cheaper than $10k 
Just awaiting government approval


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## CXRAndy (5 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I had a drive of my mother‘s ID3 this week. Very weird not having a gear stick and the way you select drive, neutral, reverse. Disappointed it had manual seat adjustments and not electric. Certainly has plenty of torque.



Different, I agree. The butter like acceleration and regen are a delight.

I would never ever buy an ICE car again.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Apparently Which? think otherwise. If I owned a Tesla I'd read that report pretty quickly.
> 
> I'd love a Tesla, they are truly ground-breaking, and represent a massive (and overdue) paradigm shift in the car industry.
> But the various stories of paint issues, rust, poor assembly quality and poor reliability need to be addressed. All those things will improve, every new model will be better, but some of the press reports are absolutely shocking for a premium brand.


read a news article on that , software seems to the the biggest gripe. Ctrl alt del in most cases! Unsurprising really considering the amount of guff going on , some of it I’m sure is nothing to do with the actual driving of the car and more to do with the user “ experience” I’d be pretty pissed at spending a load of cash for software to be a wrecking ball !


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## lazybloke (6 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> read a news article on that , software seems to the the biggest gripe. Ctrl alt del in most cases! Unsurprising really considering the amount of guff going on , some of it I’m sure is nothing to do with the actual driving of the car and more to do with the user “ experience” I’d be pretty pissed at spending a load of cash for software to be a wrecking ball !


Some manufacturers have been looking at a subscription model for car features.
How are the features enabled - over the air update?
Fine, but what if the model you bought is replaced a year later - how long will the manufacture keep the backend infrastructure running to support the older model? 

And what will the insurers think of you running an obsolete car. Higher premiums to begin with, then a refusal to cover? 

Long-term use of an obsolete car could become impossible when software goes out of date.
Just try using Windows 7; you can't even open a Google search page.


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## cougie uk (6 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Some manufacturers have been looking at a subscription model for car features.
> How are the features enabled - over the air update?
> Fine, but what if the model you bought is replaced a year later - how long will the manufacture keep the backend infrastructure running to support the older model?
> 
> ...


Just don't buy from anyone who tries that then. A car should last a long time. It's not a reason to avoid EVs - have you seen how many ICE cars have stopped production due to lack of chips already ?


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## lazybloke (6 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Just don't buy from anyone who tries that then. A car should last a long time. It's not a reason to avoid EVs - have you seen how many ICE cars have stopped production due to lack of chips already ?


Have you see that EV production is also affected by chip shortages? Not sure what your point is.




Anyway, I never said "don't buy an EV" - I'm probably in the market for one myself in the next 6 months. And yes, I'd look to buy/activate features outright, not by subscription. Let's hope the manufacturers don't all go to subscription plans only, eh?

The point I was making is that the increasing computerisation of cars (which especially applies to EVs) has potential pitfalls. Yes, a car should last a long time, but it's in the manufacturer's interest to artificially reduce that time in as many ways as possible.


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## vickster (6 Mar 2022)

I looked at the MG Estate today…the thing is huuugggeeee


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## CXRAndy (6 Mar 2022)

Considering legacy manufacturers never offered upgrades for any model of car they sold- 

Until Tesla appeared offering OTA service and feature updates -free of charge.

Yes their premium features are payable, but at least the car is fully equipped from day one of manufacture to run the extra driving aids.


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## Milzy (6 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I looked at the MG Estate today…the thing is huuugggeeee


And very ugly.


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## vickster (6 Mar 2022)

Milzy said:


> And very ugly.


Yep many cars are these days, it looks better from the side than the front!
Not as ugly as those hideous Polestars though


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## Rusty Nails (6 Mar 2022)

A friend of mine ordered an electric MG about five/six months ago and was given an April delivery date but was contacted by the dealer on Friday and told that because of supply problems with silicon chips (I believe) delivery would be delayed to September.

He said he has gone off the idea and told them to stuff it, so sticking with his three year old car for another couple of years.


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## vickster (6 Mar 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> A friend of mine ordered an electric MG about five/six months ago and was given an April delivery date but was contacted by the dealer on Friday and told that because of supply problems with silicon chips (I believe) delivery would be delayed to September.
> 
> He said he has gone off the idea and told them to stuff it, so sticking with his three year old car for another couple of years.


They had a few at the local dealer. Still don’t want one though


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## gzoom (7 Mar 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> He said he has gone off the idea and told them to stuff it, so sticking with his three year old car for another couple of years.



Financially that decision makes little sense. We are on the edge of a massive inflation jump but its very unlikely we'll see wages/spending power keep up.

Consumers goods (like cars) will also remain supply-constrained for the foreseeable future. Governments are now building tanks again and global trade is very fragile.

All of this means only one thing for prices going ahead. If you need/have the means to make a big purchase, now is the time to do it. Otherwise things may well become totally unaffordable going fowards.

Remember money has no real value, its worth is decided by politics and human actions. Stuff/things (commodities) have real value and are not subject to the potential of becoming 'worthless' overnight like money can (Look at the Rubble). 

On the whole consumer goods prices haven't seen their costs rise in line with everything else......yet, but you can be sure its coming. Its a matter of when not if.


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## icowden (7 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Apparently Which? think otherwise. If I owned a Tesla I'd read that report pretty quickly.


Or you could look into it in a little more detail...

In a nutshell, this was a survey of 57000 cars of which 2184 were actually electric. A poll of actual EV users showed 83% considered their EV more reliable than their previous ICE cars.


View: https://twitter.com/FullyChargedDan/status/1499647447718670336?s=20&t=Tq-lRy1t4mJKxNAFXl-HXA


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## Scottish Scrutineer (7 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Resale values is a guess right now I did put up a link that costs may come down for EVs but that’s a stumbling block right now !! I just could not believe the price though it’s silly .


That's one of the reasons we just went for ICE when we last purchased a new car, just over 2 years ago. The cost, and specifications of the available EVs was limited; this was prior to the likes of the iD3, Polestar, Corsa/208 etc. Tesla M3 is a saloon not hatch (and over the self-imposed £40k limit), eGolf was off the market, Leaf was not great for seats. BMWi3 was a possible option, but we ended up with the MINI Clubman which was delivered March 2 years ago. I happened to look at the mileage over the weekend an we've only done 8k miles in 2 years.
Hopefully when we look to change it in about 3 years, there will be more choice of EVs.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (7 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I had a drive of my mother‘s ID3 this week. Very weird not having a gear stick and the way you select drive, neutral, reverse. Disappointed it had manual seat adjustments and not electric. Certainly has plenty of torque.


I don't see electric seat adjustment as a deal breaker. We've had it on cars, but its not really a hardship to adjust the seat by lifting a lever and turning a wheel for the amount of times we swap over drivers. Once you get into the way of driving most automatics, all you tend to do is tell it whether you want to go Forwards, Reverse or Park.
As long as they're not in battleship/primer grey, the iD3 looks quite nice too.


CXRAndy said:


> Different, I agree. The butter like acceleration and regen are a delight.
> 
> I would never ever buy an ICE car again.


For smoothness and low noise EVs are in a different league


vickster said:


> They had a few at the local dealer. Still don’t want one though


I've not yet seem one in the metal. My mate should get his fairly soon, so will make judgement then. Mind you, his last 2 cars have been Dacia Sanderos, so he is into fairly basic motoring needs.


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## vickster (7 Mar 2022)

Apparently Skoda were going to make a new Fabia estate, including an electric version...now they aren't as they are going to focus on SUVs and just do the Fabia hatch


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## bonzobanana (7 Mar 2022)

Milzy said:


> And very ugly.



I actually like the look of it very much but then I'm an estate car fan so perhaps I'm more forgiving. Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder though. I detest the looks of many Alfa Romeos but others say they look very stylish. Maybe again I'm thinking subconsciously about their appalling quality and reliability that is putting me off. I wouldn't buy one but love the look of many of the new Peugeots. I used to dislike their styling in the past but really like the look of them now. Styling is only a small factor for me though, I'm more interested in engineering quality and reliability and dependability so tend to look more towards Japanese brands like Honda, Toyota and Mazda.


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## Rusty Nails (7 Mar 2022)

gzoom said:


> Financially that decision makes little sense. We are on the edge of a massive inflation jump but its very unlikely we'll see wages/spending power keep up.
> 
> Consumers goods (like cars) will also remain supply-constrained for the foreseeable future. Governments are now building tanks again and global trade is very fragile.
> 
> ...


He is not worried by the financial aspect, nor about green issues. He likes gadgets and fancied trying out an electric car, as long as it was not a Tesla, and liked the look of the MG.

He will have an itch to try one out in the future, possibly as a replacement for his wife's car, and will go for something smaller for use on local journeys.


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## lazybloke (7 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Or you could look into it in a little more detail...
> 
> In a nutshell, this was a survey of 57000 cars of which 2184 were actually electric. A poll of actual EV users showed 83% considered their EV more reliable than their previous ICE cars.


I think EVs are fantastic, so much better than ICEs, but when I buy a new car I damn well expect several years of trouble-free motoring.
Yet you're telling me that 17% of EV owners concluded their OLD cars were more reliable. Oh dear....


Do you remember the JD Power reliability surveys about the turn of the millenium? I don't know the sample size, but one year the Honda Accord topped the table with not a single breakdown reported by their owners!


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## Scottish Scrutineer (7 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> Do you remember the JD Power reliability surveys about the turn of the millenium? I don't know the sample size, but one year the Honda Accord topped the table with not a single breakdown reported by their owners!


Probably find that those owners never even realised what it was that they were driving, or just zoned out travelling from A to B in the Accord. So many cars are just anonymous "white goods" that move people from one place to another with little involvement in the driving process. Ideal candidates for autonomous vehicles, or car clubs.


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## FishFright (7 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Apparently Skoda were going to make a new Fabia estate, including an electric version...now they aren't as they are going to focus on SUVs and just do the Fabia hatch



Ford in the US stopped making saloons/hatches etc a couple of years back as they didn't sell , not even the Police editions as they have moved over to SUV's too.


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## vickster (7 Mar 2022)

SUVs make a bit more sense in the US though, big roads, big spaces in carparks, most people at least outside the downtown areas have off street parking...and petrol is still much cheaper (even in California).
Don't they still make Mustangs though?


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## FishFright (7 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> SUVs make a bit more sense in the US though, big roads, big spaces in carparks, most people at least outside the downtown areas have off street parking...and petrol is still much cheaper (even in California).
> Don't they still make Mustangs though?



I forgot about the Mustang ! doh


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## yello (7 Mar 2022)

We can get a grant of around €5000 from the govt for scrapping our old diesel 2005 Renault Scenic against a 2nd hand EV. It's very tempting, I must say, but I've no idea what we'd get.


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## figbat (7 Mar 2022)

FishFright said:


> I forgot about the Mustang ! doh


And the GT...?


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## FishFright (7 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> And the GT...?



Damn you all with your facts ! lol


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## icowden (7 Mar 2022)

yello said:


> We can get a grant of around €5000 from the govt for scrapping our old diesel 2005 Renault Scenic against a 2nd hand EV. It's very tempting, I must say, but I've no idea what we'd get.


The ID4 is a not dissimilar size if you don't need 7 seats. If you need 7 seats, then I think it's the Enyak or the Tesla Y (or X)


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## icowden (7 Mar 2022)

lazybloke said:


> I think EVs are fantastic, so much better than ICEs, but when I buy a new car I damn well expect several years of trouble-free motoring.
> Yet you're telling me that 17% of EV owners concluded their OLD cars were more reliable. Oh dear....


No I am telling you that 3% of those surveyed concluded that their old cars were more reliable. 14% felt reliability was the same. Which isn't the same as being unreliable. If my ICE car was very reliable and my EV is very reliable then "about the same" is a reasonable response.


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## yello (7 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> The ID4 is a not dissimilar size if you don't need 7 seats. If you need 7 seats, then I think it's the Enyak or the Tesla Y (or X)


Thanks. We can't run to that sort of price but there's a Peugeot Partner TP that looks as though it might work for us.


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## icowden (7 Mar 2022)

yello said:


> Thanks. We can't run to that sort of price but there's a Peugeot Partner TP that looks as though it might work for us.


Cool. That's where the Govt could really help by taking a leaf out of Norway's book and providing incentives - drop VAT on EVs for example. That would make the baseline ID4 28k instead of 34k and the ID4 family 37k instead of 44k.

Is that a second hand Partner Teepee? I can't see that they are making them any more? I'm getting the e-2008, e3008 or e-Rifter?


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## yello (7 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Is that a second hand Partner Teepee? I can't see that they are making them any more?


We can only afford 2nd hand. If it wasn't for the fact that the grant is more then our current car is worth, I'm not sure we'd even be looking at it.


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## lazybloke (7 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> No I am telling you that 3% of those surveyed concluded that their old cars were more reliable. 14% felt reliability was the same. Which isn't the same as being unreliable. If my ICE car was very reliable and my EV is very reliable then "about the same" is a reasonable response.


Ah, the perils of commenting on a headline. It never gives enough info.


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## CXRAndy (19 Mar 2022)

Yesterday, I got two of my three, Zappi 22kW chargers connected. I was drawing 18kW simultaneously, max draw will be 34kW when all vehicles are charging from a low point. That's most never likely, but possible. 


Speaking with electrician about his imminent 11kW solar array install. I think I'll follow up and see what pit falls he has, if any and get a similar setup-probably slightly larger 😄


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## icowden (19 Mar 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Yesterday, I got two of my three, Zappi 22kW chargers connected. I was drawing 18kW simultaneously, max draw will be 34kW when all vehicles are charging from a low point. That's most never likely, but possible.
> 
> 
> Speaking with electrician about his imminent 11kW solar array install. I think I'll follow up and see what pit falls he has, if any and get a similar setup-probably slightly larger 😄


Just had my Zappi installed. Only another 7 months until I have a car to plug into it!!


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## Alex321 (19 Mar 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Speaking with electrician about his imminent 11kW solar array install. I think I'll follow up and see what pit falls he has, if any and get a similar setup-probably slightly larger 😄


You'll struggle to get a bigger one unless you have a mansion house.

We have a fairly large 4 bed house with a double garage, and had the whole of the rear roof of both house & garage fitted with solar panels last month, which is a 10.14 KW system.

Today we generated 55.1KwH.


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## CXRAndy (20 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> You'll struggle to get a bigger one unless you have a mansion house.
> 
> We have a fairly large 4 bed house with a double garage, and had the whole of the rear roof of both house & garage fitted with solar panels last month, which is a 10.14 KW system.
> 
> Today we generated 55.1KwH.



I will be trying to get 50kW minimum. I have 3 phase with 100 Amp per phase. in fact our new place has 3 meters all 3 phase.


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## Alex321 (21 Mar 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I will be trying to get 50kW minimum. I have 3 phase with 100 Amp per phase. in fact our new place has 3 meters all 3 phase.


It isn't your current supply that matters, it is how much space you have for the array of PV panels.

50kW will need much more space than any normal house will have on the roof.


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## MrGrumpy (21 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> You'll struggle to get a bigger one unless you have a mansion house.
> 
> We have a fairly large 4 bed house with a double garage, and had the whole of the rear roof of both house & garage fitted with solar panels last month, which is a 10.14 KW system.
> 
> Today we generated 55.1KwH.


We have large 5 bed south facing roof, perfect for panels but I think I’d need batteries as well ! Bro in law told me he did quotation online £12k for 7Kw ? That seems quite expensive.


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## Alex321 (21 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> We have large 5 bed south facing roof, perfect for panels but I think I’d need batteries as well ! Bro in law told me he did quotation online £12k for 7Kw ? That seems quite expensive.


We just paid around £20K for a 10.14kW system with a 16kWh battery.

So that sounds about right.


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## CXRAndy (21 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It isn't your current supply that matters, it is how much space you have for the array of PV panels.
> 
> 50kW will need much more space than any normal house will have on the roof.


I have enough real estate to accommodate 1.21 jiggy Watts


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## shep (21 Mar 2022)

Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?

I mean, opening the bonnet of a big engined motor or listening to the growl of a powerful car is surely important?

The power delivery of certain engine configurations for example being different to others etc. 

If cars are just an AtoB experience to people then I guess go for the greenest thing out there but I personally think the day the only vehicles available are electric will be a sad one. 

We haven't even mentioned Motorcycles!


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## Alex321 (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?
> 
> I mean, opening the bonnet of a big engined motor or listening to the growl of a powerful car is surely important?
> 
> ...


I haven't ever owned or driven an EV yet, but probably will in the future.

But I have never felt the sound of the engine to be in the slightest bit important, nor have I ever felt a car has any "soul". Character, maybe, but that hasn't been dependent on the engine.

I know there are plenty of people around who feel more as you do, but I think for the majority of drivers, the car is mainly just a tool for getting from A to B while carrying x.


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## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?
> I mean, opening the bonnet of a big engined motor or listening to the growl of a powerful car is surely important?


It is to some people. I imagine for most it's not a consideration. I've never opened the bonnet of my Renault Scenic to have a listen.
If I owned a Ferrari or a Lamborgini, it might be a different matter. To be honest, whenever I hear the roar of an engine around here I tend to think rude and negative thoughts about the small nether regions attached to the person revving their engines or driving their backfiring idiot-mobile, or deliberately unsilenced crap motorbike.



shep said:


> If cars are just an AtoB experience to people then I guess go for the greenest thing out there but I personally think the day the only vehicles available are electric will be a sad one.


I think there will always be a certain number of petrol vehicles, but they will very much be a novelty and expensive to run. A bit like when you see the vintage cars heading to Brooklands.

As for motorbikes, how about an electric Harley? 146 miles range, 0-60 in 3 seconds..., 0-80 in 5, 0-110 in 11.2 secs.





https://www.harley-davidson.com/gb/en/motorcycles/2021/livewire.html


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## shep (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> I've never opened the bonnet of my Renault Scenic to have a listen.
> 
> View attachment 636324
> 
> https://www.harley-davidson.com/gb/en/motorcycles/2021/livewire.html


Not being funny but the fact you drive a Renault scenic suggests you won't be interested in cars other than to provide transport, again suggesting an electric Harley and thinking it's the speed that is somehow impressive proves you would never understand what I'm talking about. 

It's of no consequence what I see in a car/bike but it's interesting (although obvious really) that people who want electric cars seem to have no real interest in what a car is.

Classic cars for example, hold any interest to you?


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## nickyboy (21 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Just had my Zappi installed. Only another 7 months until I have a car to plug into it!!


Talk to me about it. Ordered the car end September and I haven't even got a delivery date yet. At least every month I'm saving the lease cost I guess


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## MrGrumpy (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?
> 
> I mean, opening the bonnet of a big engined motor or listening to the growl of a powerful car is surely important?
> 
> ...


I do !! Been their way back in this thread  ! Synthetic fuel will hopefully be a saviour in keeping the petrol engines running for a long time .


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## gzoom (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?



Use to spend ££££ on making my old combustion cars sound 'nice', don't miss it one bit.

Now when I come across a combustion car making a racket I just think, all that noise and where is performance  


View: https://youtu.be/j-uf9hf0jBk


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## roubaixtuesday (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Not being funny but the fact you drive a Renault scenic suggests you won't be interested in cars other than to provide transport, again suggesting an electric Harley and thinking it's the speed that is somehow impressive proves you would never understand what I'm talking about.
> 
> It's of no consequence what I see in a car/bike but it's interesting (although obvious really) that people who want electric cars seem to have no real interest in what a car is.
> 
> Classic cars for example, hold any interest to you?



Not being funny but you could write the exact same stuff about steam engines, and it hasn't stopped them becoming museum pieces.


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## BrumJim (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?
> 
> I mean, opening the bonnet of a big engined motor or listening to the growl of a powerful car is surely important?
> 
> ...


I think that cars no longer have the soul or character that they had when I was young.

OK, by soul or character, I mean being unreliable, difficult to drive, inadequately designed, etc, etc.

I'm a petrol head. My weekly read was Autocar, taking care to grab it when it dropped through the letter box before my Dad came home. I have spent far too much of my life going round car museums and car shows. Before family commitments arrived I got the car of my dreams (OK, the one within my budget), would love to own a Jaguar XK, have been given a ride in a Ferrari 348, and drove an Aston Martin on a driving day as a birthday present. In terms of different power configurations, I would love to hear the famous V16 1.5l BRM F1 engine for real, and the sound of an old-school F1 engine at full chat gets the hair on the back of my neck standing up.

But I have an electric car that I love. The power delivery makes much more sense than an IC car. I love that my brake pedal recharges the battery rather than heats up a block of metal. And in the same way that steam engines give a very audible and visual visceral impact on the observer, as ways of getting large numbers of people across the country efficiently they are an engineer's worst nightmare. Dangerous, inefficient and with very poor delivery of tractive effort, they are everything a train traction system should not be.

Will I miss ICE cars? I'll miss the joy of driving around on days like today with bright sunshine but cold temperatures with the windows wide open and the fan on full, blasting tons of waste heat into the car so I don't freeze. But why is there so much waste heat anyway? I shall miss visiting fuel stations, and standing in a line with a cross section of society, looking at the lines of sweets and crisps conveniently located just where I stop and wait. I shall be nostalgic, but I won't miss the dirt and noise, and certainly won't miss the polution on my lungs and buildings, and the effect on the health of those around me.


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## figbat (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Do any of you EV drivers think these cars have no soul or character?
> 
> I mean, opening the bonnet of a big engined motor or listening to the growl of a powerful car is surely important?
> 
> ...


Funny isn’t it, that the characteristics of an engine that give it “character” are the very inefficiencies and compromises that EVs overcome. It’s like we celebrate failures.

“They sound great” - noise is a wasted energy that has to be muffled and controlled.
”You can’t beat a manual gearbox” - a clutch is required because an engine has to idle (wasting energy) and a gearbox is needed because and engine has such a limited rev range and torque curve.

Engines are such a flawed design when considering efficiency - a 4-stroke engine spends more than 75% of the time trying to slow down, they rarely top 40% thermal efficiency, there is a complicated drivetrain to convert the crankshaft speed to useful motion - even steam engines are better in this regard. But by gawd do we luv ‘em!


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## shep (21 Mar 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Not being funny but you could write the exact same stuff about steam engines, and it hasn't stopped them becoming museum pieces.


Or old fashioned push bikes but some on here like those?


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## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

shep said:


> Not being funny but the fact you drive a Renault scenic suggests you won't be interested in cars other than to provide transport, again suggesting an electric Harley and thinking it's the speed that is somehow impressive proves you would never understand what I'm talking about.


The fact that I drive a Renault scenic suggests that I have a family who have not yet left home. 

Personally one of the most enjoyable things I have done (several times) is a track day in a single seater. In fact I have another one at Silverstone that I need to book as Covid delayed it quite considerably. But no, I don't yearn to own a Porsche, Lamborghini or Ferrari - although I've had fun driving two of those on a track day. All of those cars I'd prefer to drive fast than listen to the engine.

I'll admit I know nothing about motorbikes. That's my other brother in law's thing - but he is a specialist mechanic. I do know that Harley Davidson are a famous brand, and that they have made an electric motorbike. 

They aren't the only brand to have done so.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...ic-motorbikes-sale-now-and-ones-worth-waiting

You asked about motorbikes - you can go electric.


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## icowden (21 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Funny isn’t it, that the characteristics of an engine that give it “character” are the very inefficiencies and compromises that EVs overcome. It’s like we celebrate failures.



Indeed. I did once find an article written from the point of view of an ICE inventor in an EV world trying to explain to an investor why a combustion engine would be great - along the line of " yes - then we want to put a tank full of explosive liquid at the bottom. Why? well to propel the car via a series of controlled explosions... what do you mean it sounds dangerous..."


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## CXRAndy (22 Mar 2022)

I have arranged an appointment with the DNO to assess what capacity I can have if I feed into the network. 

If its not sufficient I may consider an off grid only solar. 

However from my initial research the latest Inverter systems can actually limit the amount of power thats fed back to grid so pretty much negating DNO concerns re over capacity


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## MrGrumpy (22 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Indeed. I did once find an article written from the point of view of an ICE inventor in an EV world trying to explain to an investor why a combustion engine would be great - along the line of " yes - then we want to put a tank full of explosive liquid at the bottom. Why? well to propel the car via a series of controlled explosions... what do you mean it sounds dangerous..."


Funny nobody questioned any of this until fairly recently. Now all of sudden it’s evil ? Everyone driving around in their EVs patting themselves in the back , saving the environment ! Utter bollocks  . My sister and bro in law came over with the family at the weekend. My Lads 21st . Tesla nowhere to be seen. Had to bring the dirty diesel instead as not enough room for 5 and a dog ! That’s what happens when you get sucked into buying the wrong car !


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## Alex321 (22 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Funny nobody questioned any of this until fairly recently. Now all of sudden it’s evil ? Everyone driving around in their EVs patting themselves in the back , saving the environment ! Utter bollocks  .


Only bollocks while the electricity generation in this country relies on fossil fuels.

And it really isn't "all of a sudden" either, it has been moving that way for years, ever since the realisation of the effect burning fossil fuels was having on the environment.



MrGrumpy said:


> My sister and bro in law came over with the family at the weekend. My Lads 21st . Tesla nowhere to be seen. Had to bring the dirty diesel instead as not enough room for 5 and a dog ! That’s what happens when you get sucked into buying the wrong car !


True but not relevant to any debate about ICE vs EV.

It isn't wrong because of the motive power, but because of the size of car.


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## oldwheels (22 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It isn't your current supply that matters, it is how much space you have for the array of PV panels.
> 
> 50kW will need much more space than any normal house will have on the roof.


The panels do not need to be on the roof as I have seen several mainly around Aberdeen with ground based panels. Need a big enough clear garden space obviously.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Only bollocks while the electricity generation in this country relies on fossil fuels.
> 
> And it really isn't "all of a sudden" either, it has been moving that way for years, ever since the realisation of the effect burning fossil fuels was having on the environment.



EVs are far from environmentally friendly as has been repeated several times in this thread early on.


Alex321 said:


> True but not relevant to any debate about ICE vs EV.
> 
> It isn't wrong because of the motive power, but because of the size of car.


That’s true but when you get hooked in by the sales patter you can make the wrong choices.


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## roubaixtuesday (22 Mar 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Only bollocks while the electricity generation in this country relies on fossil fuels.



EVs are so much more efficient than ICE they pay back their embedded carbon even if powered by fossil fuel generated leccy. Even if you scrap an ICE car to buy one.


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## cougie uk (22 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> EVs are far from environmentally friendly as has been repeated several times in this thread early on.
> 
> That’s true but when you get hooked in by the sales patter you can make the wrong choices.


Bikes or walking is best. Public transport is great. If you have to drive get an EV.

EVs won't fix congestion though so we need to work on bike paths and buses etc.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Bikes or walking is best. Public transport is great. If you have to drive get an EV.
> 
> EVs won't fix congestion though so we need to work on bike paths and buses etc.


Noted today in the news that the Gov is looking once again at road tolls . That zero road tax isn’t going to pay for much !


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## cougie uk (22 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Noted today in the news that the Gov is looking once again at road tolls . That zero road tax isn’t going to pay for much !


I don't doubt that road tolls will be the way it goes - pay per mile used. 
Although remember how long it took them and how many millions to decide that they couldn't do the national identity card ?

Probably decades away !


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## icowden (22 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Funny nobody questioned any of this until fairly recently. Now all of sudden it’s evil ? Everyone driving around in their EVs patting themselves in the back , saving the environment ! Utter bollocks  . My sister and bro in law came over with the family at the weekend. My Lads 21st . Tesla nowhere to be seen. Had to bring the dirty diesel instead as not enough room for 5 and a dog ! That’s what happens when you get sucked into buying the wrong car !


I didn't say it was evil. What I said is that the article highlighted that in an EV world, the idea of a combustion engine would be ludicrous, dangerous and inefficient.

You can get 5 people in a Tesla easily, and the dog. Although the dog would be in the boot space which it probably wouldn't like. They would have been better with a Tesla Y or X.

And yes, EVs do help save the environment:



> EVs are responsible for considerably lower emissions over their lifetime than conventional (internal combustion engine) vehicles across Europe as a whole.
> In countries with coal-intensive electricity generation, the benefits of EVs are smaller and they can have similar lifetime emissions to the most efficient conventional vehicles – such as hybrid-electric models.
> However, as countries decarbonise electricity generation to meet their climate targets, driving emissions will fall for existing EVs and manufacturing emissions will fall for new EVs.
> In the UK in 2019, the lifetime emissions per kilometre of driving a Nissan Leaf EV were about three times lower than for the average conventional car, even before accounting for the falling carbon intensity of electricity generation during the car’s lifetime.
> Comparisons between electric vehicles and conventional vehicles are complex. They depend on the size of the vehicles, the accuracy of the fuel-economy estimates used, how electricity emissions are calculated, what driving patterns are assumed, and even the weather in regions where the vehicles are used. There is no single estimate that applies everywhere.


https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

In a nutshell, manufacturing is about the same, creating the battery is not terribly environmentally friendly at the moment, but over the life of the vehicle emissions from tailpipe and fuel cycle are much much higher in an ICE vehicle than an electric. Obviously this is tempered by where the country you are in gets its electricity. If the electricity is from renewable or Nuclear sources (e.g. Norway or France) , than EVs make much more sense than in countries still burning coal.


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## figbat (22 Mar 2022)

There is also the consideration of where and when emissions are generated. Of course there are carbon emissions associated with EV charging, but these emissions are disconnected from the car in both time and place. They are coming out of a power plant that is being constantly fettled and managed for efficiency and running at or near peak efficiency much of the time, compared to an ICE which rarely operates at peak efficiency and puts its emissions out wherever it goes. On a global scale this make little difference but for local emissions it is important. And an ICE's emissions are pretty fixed whereas the energy mix for charging an EV is variable, with the portion of renewable generation constantly changing and generally trending upwards, meaning over a 3 year ownership period, the EV power source can become cleaner whereas the ICE will be stuck on hydrocarbons for its whole life.

Reading this back I sound like an EV evangelist but I'm not really - I have an EV and it has proven perfectly capable of meeting my daily transport needs. But then I also have a motorbike and my wife has a ICE car and they all have their role to play. The bike is a toy which I don't need but it's a source of enjoyment. The ICE pulls the caravan and does the heavy lifting when needed - this will probably be replaced by a PHEV next time around. So rather than being an evangelist, I am being a realist. We can't do everything we want to with an EV, but we can do most of it.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I don't doubt that road tolls will be the way it goes - pay per mile used.
> Although remember how long it took them and how many millions to decide that they couldn't do the national identity card ?
> 
> Probably decades away !


Won’t be decades though this time ! It’s hard cash that’s not going to be coming in due to their own rules !! They will have to stick VED on EVs or tax the by the mile you drive !


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## figbat (22 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Won’t be decades though this time ! It’s hard cash that’s not going to be coming in due to their own rules !! They will have to stick VED on EVs or tax the by the mile you drive !


Or put duty on electricity.


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## Alex321 (22 Mar 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Won’t be decades though this time ! It’s hard cash that’s not going to be coming in due to their own rules !! They will have to stick VED on EVs or tax the by the mile you drive !


Not necessarily.

They will need to raise money from *somewhere* to cover the lost revenue, but it doesn't have to be from somewhere similar.

They could put VAT back up to 25%, for instance. Or various other options.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Or put duty on electricity.


That will be very popular indeed .


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## simongt (22 Mar 2022)

This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads. 
Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
Might make a difference you think - ?


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## cougie uk (22 Mar 2022)

simongt said:


> This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
> Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
> Might make a difference you think - ?


It's no different from the ICE vehicles though is it ? Did anyone ever get the MPG that manufacturers promised from that ?

When choosing your EV you need to think about the every day mileages you do. If your commute is 20 miles round trip do you really need a 300 mile battery to lug around every trip ?


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## Gillstay (22 Mar 2022)

simongt said:


> This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
> Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
> Might make a difference you think - ?


That's the same for any vehicle, my petrol Toyota will do 56mpg on a sunny day, but only 48 on a wet winters day. Even a wheel barrow is harder to push on a wet day !


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## icowden (22 Mar 2022)

simongt said:


> This may have already been mentioned, but in the so called EV range tests that pop up occasionally, they always seem to be done on dry, sunny days on generally 'flattish' roads.
> Yet to see ones done in the winter at night, in the rain driving around Scotland, Yorkshire or north Wales.
> Might make a difference you think - ?


Yep. That's why the EV Database exists.
Take the Tesla Model 3 long range for example:-

https://ev-database.uk/car/1591/Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

Real world range is between 215 and 435 miles depending on weather and type of driving. 
Or take the car I've ordered (ish - it's actually the pure but the 2022 model which has a longer range so I've gone with the Pro as an example):-

https://ev-database.uk/car/1627/Volkswagen-ID4-Pro

Between 180 miles and 370 miles.

Now my Renault Grand Scenic *can* do 55 miles to the gallon and holds 11.5 gallons of diesel. So that's a range of 600 miles. 
I fill it up roughly every two weeks. 

So, why would I choose to get a car with (on average) a third of the range of my current car? 

The headline figure for the scenic isn't real world. I actually get around 38 to 42mpg depending on how much I'm sitting in traffic. So about 500 miles on a good day.
The reason that the Scenic can do about 500 miles is that owners of ICE cars don't want to visit a petrol station every day to fill up.
When I'm stuck in traffic, my Scenic is still burning diesel. An EV will be using enough battery to power the in car entertainment - so not very much.
95% of my journeys in the car are less than 20 miles. Sometimes I take the car on longer journeys - the New Forest (80 miles), Alton Towers (144 miles), Worcester (103 miles) Lake District (282 miles), Isle of Wight (75 miles).

So, as long as I can find somewhere to charge when I get there, the ID4 will get me pretty much anywhere I need to go without needing to stop for a charge. If I visit the Lake District again, then I'll need a stop. Last time we stopped at Alton Towers for the night and yes, they don't have any chargers (yet - they say they are looking into it), but there are places to charge nearby, and we did stop at the services on the way there and again between Alton Towers and the Lake District - so plenty of opportunities to top up.

But that's a real outlier of a journey.

I don't need an EV that can go 500 miles because most of the time, it will be at home, and fully charged when it needs to be. 
The whole "you need more range in an EV before they are viable" is complete rubbish. It's like trying to compare a landline with a mobile and complaining that the mobile is just going to run out of charge, so a land line is better.

They are different. So comparing them on range is pointless.
Finally - if you are really worried about the real world impact of weather, this is a good article:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38883045/electric-cars-snow-cold-fact-check/

There was a blizzard in Wisonsin with people stuck for up to 16 hours.


> Then an actual Tesla driver who was caught in that very same massive 16-hour traffic jam on I-95 weighed in. "I'm grateful that I was driving my EV when I got stuck on I-95," wrote Model 3 driver Dan Kanninen on the Zero Emission Transportation Association (ZETA) website. He spent 14 hours in his base Model 3, the shortest-range version of that car. He stayed warm (with no engine running, obviously) and was able to stream videos on the car's 15-inch display. Kanninen had 50 miles of range left after 14 hours.


Yep. In an EV he stayed warm, and watched some movies for *14 hours * and still had enough range to get to a supercharger, avoiding the huge queues for gasoline.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Mar 2022)

Zero % vat on solar panels has about made my mind up now I reckon. Was going to replace my windows but think it would be best spent on panels now. Just thinking of the future!


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## byegad (23 Mar 2022)

Our petrol Toyota Yaris did about 45mpg, and carried enough fuel to do 370 miles before it was on reserve. ie. needle reading Empty but it's still running, from experience it would run for about 55 more miles, but you would be pulling dregs out of the bottom of the tank and not doing it much good. 
Our Hybrid Yaris had a smaller tank, using some of that space for battery. It did 56 mpg and had a range from full to reserve of 385 miles or so. 
Out Corolla Touring Sport Hybrid does about 61mpg, it has a bigger battery than the Yaris and from full tank, will do 580 miles or so to reserve.

As I tend to fill up once I get to 150 miles range is left (A legacy of having lived a decent distance from a variety of increasingly frail relatives) I merely notice that I fill up about half as often as I used to.


If I had an EV, it would be topped up most nights so I'd always have the full range available. 

Having a son who works all over the country, often driving 400+ miles from job to home than another 400+ miles returning to the job when he has a weekend off, I fully understand that some people really will have issues with EV range, but for most of us this worry is illusionary.


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## cougie uk (23 Mar 2022)

icowden said:


> Yep. That's why the EV Database exists.
> Take the Tesla Model 3 long range for example:-
> 
> https://ev-database.uk/car/1591/Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-Dual-Motor
> ...



Not forgetting those guys who asphyxiated themselves running their car engine in a blizzard the other month in Pakistan I think ? Deaded.


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Apr 2022)

All signed off DNO happy with load demand from my Zappis. I've set the ball rolling for solar, planning consultant given initial brief.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (10 Apr 2022)

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...z5YRI4ci_m3uRkYm5HhAh5TNXukAscljh7C18UtjzLUAM


----------



## cougie uk (10 Apr 2022)

Behind a paywall


----------



## MrGrumpy (28 May 2022)

Just popping back in here , interesting that the Tesla charging network is about to be opened up to every EV on the road . It’s the one brilliant thing about Tesla and it’s the charging. Public charging network is dire in places I’m told by a colleague. Reason why he ditched his his Nissan Leaf .


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## icowden (28 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just popping back in here , interesting that the Tesla charging network is about to be opened up to every EV on the road . It’s the one brilliant thing about Tesla and it’s the charging. Public charging network is dire in places I’m told by a colleague. Reason why he ditched his his Nissan Leaf .


True, there is one major issue with the Tesla chargers for other cars though, and that is that they are designed for Teslas and have relatively short cables. This means that the cables are sited to reach the driver side tail light which is roughly where the charging port on a Tesla is. If you have an EV which has the charging port on the left, you may have difficulty using a Tesla Supercharger!


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## DRM (28 May 2022)

icowden said:


> True, there is one major issue with the Tesla chargers for other cars though, and that is that they are designed for Teslas and have relatively short cables. This means that the cables are sited to reach the driver side tail light which is roughly where the charging port on a Tesla is. If you have an EV which has the charging port on the left, you may have difficulty using a Tesla Supercharger!



Business opportunity there for someone to market a fly lead to extend the chargers reach


----------



## cougie uk (28 May 2022)

I know there's about 15 on trial opened up now. 
I think I'd need an adapter for my leaf. If you do your homework and plan your journey you won't have too many problems in the UK.


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## MrGrumpy (28 May 2022)

icowden said:


> True, there is one major issue with the Tesla chargers for other cars though, and that is that they are designed for Teslas and have relatively short cables. This means that the cables are sited to reach the driver side tail light which is roughly where the charging port on a Tesla is. If you have an EV which has the charging port on the left, you may have difficulty using a Tesla Supercharger!



Yes we did have that discussion about chargers cables !


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## mistyoptic (29 May 2022)

Took the opportunity to test drive a Kia EV6 yesterday. Very nice, comfortable, spacious. Placid, hard ride, undramatic.

The thing is, if I could afford to drop that kind of money on a new car, my existing BMW diesel would still be out there, driven by someone else, polluting the planet and I would have added yet another car to the overloaded UK road. Not happening


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## gzoom (30 May 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think I'd need an adapter for my leaf. If you do your homework and plan your journey you won't have too many problems in the UK.



Sadly no one is going to make an CCS to CHAdeMO adaptor, even though Tesla does make a CHAdeMO to Type 2 DC adaptor!

But you are right, in some parts of the UK the DC rapid charging network is getting there without needing the Tesla SC network.

We are currently in France, on holiday with friends, we drove in convoy from the EastMidlands in a pair of EVs. The ID4 actually charges faster and has more range than our 5 year old+ Tesla, but nethier took any longer to do the trip compared to a combustion car given the numbers of kids what were been ferried around.

It's now very hard to buy a 'bad' EV .


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## Gunk (30 May 2022)

Well I’m not going electric, I’ve just bought a 3.0 Diesel!


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## MrGrumpy (30 May 2022)

Gunk said:


> Well I’m not going electric, I’ve just bought a 3.0 Diesel!
> 
> View attachment 646842



Currently contemplating chopping in the twin axle and buying something more sensible to swap the Discovery with. That a 335 D ?


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## icowden (30 May 2022)

Gunk said:


> Well I’m not going electric, I’ve just bought a 3.0 Diesel!


You must be minted! 💰💰💰


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## MrGrumpy (30 May 2022)

icowden said:


> You must be minted! 💰💰💰



Similar sized EV would set you back a fortune just now ! My son was contemplating buying a brand new EV. The petrol version was £10k cheaper !! Didn’t buy either and plopped for a 3yr old car instead. Took some explaining about how he would never see the saving switching to electric for the mileage he does .


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## icowden (30 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Similar sized EV would set you back a fortune just now ! My son was contemplating buying a brand new EV. The petrol version was £10k cheaper !! Didn’t buy either and plopped for a 3yr old car instead. Took some explaining about how he would never see the saving switching to electric for the mileage he does .



Absolutely and as we said previously it's just so lucky that the price of Diesel and Petrol is so stable and will be so long into the future, and that there are no world events precipitating a mass abandonment of fossil fuels. Personally I'm going for swallowing the cost up front.

Out of interest how much did the BMW cost? I'm finding 3 year old BMW 3 series to be around £20k. About the same as an MG MG5 Estate - fully electric.


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## Profpointy (30 May 2022)

icowden said:


> You must be minted! 💰💰💰



not any more presumably


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## MrGrumpy (30 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Absolutely and as we said previously it's just so lucky that the price of Diesel and Petrol is so stable and will be so long into the future, and that there are no world events precipitating a mass abandonment of fossil fuels. Personally I'm going for swallowing the cost up front.
> 
> Out of interest how much did the BMW cost? I'm finding 3 year old BMW 3 series to be around £20k. About the same as an MG MG5 Estate - fully electric.



No idea how much they cost these days. However , again it maybe simpler decision to make once charging networks are sorted out . Which I’m sure they will . Just not there yet ! ( not everyone’s experience I know )


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## Gunk (30 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Currently contemplating chopping in the twin axle and buying something more sensible to swap the Discovery with. That a 335 D ?



330d xdrive


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## gzoom (31 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> No idea how much they cost these days. However , again it maybe simpler decision to make once charging networks are sorted out . Which I’m sure they will . Just not there yet ! ( not everyone’s experience I know )



We been touring the local beachs in France. Right now the ID4 is currently at 100% SOC, the Tesla 79%.

Honestly I struggle to understand what issues people are still concerned about?

EVs arent some future technology waiting for mass deployment, they work really well right now for most families.


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## MrGrumpy (31 May 2022)

gzoom said:


> We been touring the local beachs in France. Right now the ID4 is currently at 100% SOC, the Tesla 79%.
> 
> Honestly I struggle to understand what issues people are still concerned about?
> 
> ...



But so do Petrol and diesel vehicles? Tell you one thing the price of fuel maybe high just now but so is the cost to actually buy a replacement car be it an EV or not, used or new. I can see folk hanging onto their cars for a lot longer than normal ! Not sure that’s a bad thing or not ?


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## Alex321 (31 May 2022)

gzoom said:


> We been touring the local beachs in France. Right now the ID4 is currently at 100% SOC, the Tesla 79%.
> 
> Honestly I struggle to understand what issues people are still concerned about?
> 
> EVs arent some future technology waiting for mass deployment, they work really well right now for most families.



There are two main issues slowing the take up. First is the *perceived* limitations on range. I know and you know that it isn't going to be a problem for most, but getting that message across isn't easy.

Second is the up front cost. Most families aren't buying new, and can't afford a premium of a few thousand pounds on their next 2nd hand car. Just to show one example, where there are petrol & electric versions of the same car. A 2020 Vauxhall Corsa comes in at around £13000 on Cinch. A 2020 Corsa-e is £24,000. Both with between 10k and 11K on the clock. There are cheaper deals on Autotrader, but they are still all several thousand more than the similar petrol models.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> But so do Petrol and diesel vehicles? Tell you one thing the price of fuel maybe high just now but so is the cost to actually buy a replacement car be it an EV or not, used or new.


All of the above is true. What is also true is that the price of fuel is probably going to get worse, and continue to do so. The net effect of the death of the ICE industry is going to be higher diesel and petrol prices followed by a decrease in the number of places where you can buy diesel and petrol. 7 years until no more petrol or diesel cars being sold in the UK, and other countries doing the same.


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Absolutely and as we said previously it's just so lucky that the price of Diesel and Petrol is so stable and will be so long into the future, and that there are no world events precipitating a mass abandonment of fossil fuels. Personally I'm going for swallowing the cost up front.
> 
> Out of interest how much did the BMW cost? I'm finding 3 year old BMW 3 series to be around £20k. About the same as an MG MG5 Estate - fully electric.



Where is the MG 20k with decent spec?


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Where is the MG 20k with decent spec?



This one looks decent:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-de...o=2022&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true

13,000 miles on the clock, lots of nice luxuries inside.


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## simongt (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> lots of nice luxuries inside.


Luxuries, luxuries, lad - ? 
Eeh, back in't day, a luxury was a heater in the car - !


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> This one looks decent:
> 
> https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205306306042?onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=Used&sort=price-asc&postcode=kt122ya&include-delivery-option=on&radius=1500&advertising-location=at_cars&model=MG5&make=MG&year-to=2022&page=1&percentVehiclePriceDeposit=true
> 
> 13,000 miles on the clock, lots of nice luxuries inside.



Very Boring colour 

And a private seller…I’d never spend what is closer to 22k on a private sale with no comeback or warranty 👎
And miles away!


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## simongt (31 May 2022)

On the subject of heaters, back in't day, I owned two VW Beetles. They were reknown for the cables to the heating shutoff panels to rust through. On one, they had rusted open; great in the winter, but in the summer, cor - ! T'other they'd rusted closed, so in the winter, we froze our a***s off - !


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## byegad (31 May 2022)

simongt said:


> Luxuries, luxuries, lad - ?
> Eeh, back in't day, a luxury was a heater in the car - !



Heater? My dad's first car, bought in the late 1940s was an Austin 7 reg XG3 it came with only rear brakes as standard. He bought the kit to fit front brakes after failing to come to a halt behind a United bus which had pulled into a bus stop in front of him!


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## MrGrumpy (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> All of the above is true. What is also true is that the price of fuel is probably going to get worse, and continue to do so. The net effect of the death of the ICE industry is going to be higher diesel and petrol prices followed by a decrease in the number of places where you can buy diesel and petrol. 7 years until no more petrol or diesel cars being sold in the UK, and other countries doing the same.



Well that might be the break even point ! As I’ve said in other threads My big guzzle 4x4 is getting to the point of maybe moving it on. However I need to sell my caravan first as that will decide what we do next . However that still won’t be an EV , at this present time .


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> Very Boring colour
> And a private seller…I’d never spend what is closer to 22k on a private sale with no comeback or warranty 👎
> And miles away!


Agree with all of your points except the last one, cos that depends where you are... !!
Most cheaper second hand EVs are Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe - EVs retain a lot of their value at the moment.


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Agree with all of your points except the last one, cos that depends where you are... !!
> Most cheaper second hand EVs are Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe - EVs retain a lot of their value at the moment.



True of course!
But those wouldn’t suit my needs. I like a small estate to take a bike easily in the boot (indeed the MG is too big, I did go to a local dealer to look at it).
All being well, I can’t see me switching car for 10 years…after all my 10 year old ICE has only done 32k if that 
There appears to be no desire in the industry to produce a small E estate (Seat might have a hybrid Leon but still bigger than I need). I do not want an SUV!


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## Alex321 (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> True of course!
> But those wouldn’t suit my needs. I like a small estate to take a bike easily in the boot (indeed the MG is too big, I did go to a local dealer to look at it).
> All being well, I can’t see me switching car for 10 years…after all my 10 year old ICE has only done 32k if that
> There appears to be no desire in the industry to produce a small E estate (Seat might have a hybrid Leon but still bigger than I need). I do not want an SUV!



I would call the Skoda Enyaq a small e-estate, although they call it an SUV.


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I would call the Skoda Enyaq a small e-estate, although they call it an SUV.



They look like a huge box!


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## midlife (31 May 2022)

gzoom said:


> Honestly I struggle to understand what issues people are still concerned about?


Couldn't buy an EV on my circa £3.5k budget so bought a Ford Ka...


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> There appears to be no desire in the industry to produce a small E estate (Seat might have a hybrid Leon but still bigger than I need). I do not want an SUV!



Seat are behind the curve and don't have an EV available. The ID4 is a reasonably sized estate, although not cheap. Skoda Enyak is bigger but a lot more expensive.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

midlife said:


> Couldn't buy an EV on my circa £3.5k budget so bought a Ford Ka...



Fair enough. It'll be a while before you can get a second hand EV for 3.5k unfortunately.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> They look like a huge box!



They aren't quite as big as they look in the pictures. But they are big.


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> They aren't quite as big as they look in the pictures. But they are big.



They look huge on the road.
ID4 looks vast too, Passat sized?!


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Seat are behind the curve and don't have an EV available. The ID4 is a reasonably sized estate, although not cheap. Skoda Enyak is bigger but a lot more expensive.



Indeed that’s why I noted hybrid.
Something like an E Golf might have worked but they’ve stopped those and the new gen are fugly as


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> They look huge on the road.
> ID4 looks vast too, Passat sized?!



Passat is 4.7m, ID4 4.5m


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Passat is 4.7m, ID4 4.5m



So yes then give or take 20cm 
My Fabia is under 4.3m and I don't need anything longer and certainly not wider (car is under 1.5m)


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> So yes then give or take 20cm
> My Fabia is under 4.3m and I don't need anything longer and certainly not wider (car is under 1.5m)



Maybe the ID3 then ? That's about that size. Or the Kia E-Nero, or Peugeot e2008?


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## CharlesF (31 May 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There are two main issues slowing the take up. First is the *perceived* limitations on range. I know and you know that it isn't going to be a problem for most, but getting that message across isn't easy.
> 
> Second is the up front cost. Most families aren't buying new, and can't afford a premium of a few thousand pounds on their next 2nd hand car. Just to show one example, where there are petrol & electric versions of the same car. A 2020 Vauxhall Corsa comes in at around £13000 on Cinch. A 2020 Corsa-e is £24,000. Both with between 10k and 11K on the clock. There are cheaper deals on Autotrader, but they are still all several thousand more than the similar petrol models.


I would add a third reason:
Charging anxiety - will there be working charges on my long trip; will they be hogged by ICE or an EV that has finished charging; and how much extra time is added to my long trip.


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Maybe the ID3 then ? That's about that size. Or the Kia E-Nero, or Peugeot e2008?



None of those are estates though. Two are small hatchbacks, one a large SUV. I seek practicality but not size
Hopefully in 10 years find what I want exists…or my wants have changed


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## Alex321 (31 May 2022)

CharlesF said:


> I would add a third reason:
> Charging anxiety - will there be working charges on my long trip; will they be hogged by ICE or an EV that has finished charging; and how much extra time is added to my long trip.



That is really what the first of my points is mainly about I think.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> None of those are estates though. Two are small hatchbacks, one a large SUV. I seek practicality but not size
> Hopefully in 10 years find what I want exists…or my wants have changed


Unfortunately if you want an estate that usually comes with length these days. Isn't the Fabia just a hatchback?


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## Alex321 (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Unfortunately if you want an estate that usually comes with length these days. Isn't the Fabia just a hatchback?



It has an estate version (The Skoda Fabia Wagon in their terminology).


----------



## presta (31 May 2022)

Fiat are withdrawing all their petrol & diesel cars from sale in 31 days:
https://news.motors.co.uk/fiat-announces-its-full-range-will-be-electrified-from-july/


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Unfortunately if you want an estate that usually comes with length these days. Isn't the Fabia just a hatchback?



No, has a proper sized boot


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

vickster said:


> No, has a proper sized boot


OK, so Skoda Fabia Estate boot capacity is 530 / 1395 litres and is 4.3m long
ID4 is 4.5m long and has 543 / 1665 litres
That's probably the closest match. Unfortunately as soon as you go less than 4.5m long the boot space reduces significantly.
The Enyaq has huge boot space but is 4.6m long. 

I went (am going eventually if it ever gets delivered?) ID4 as it's only a little less than my Renault grand scenic which has 596l of space and is 4.6m long. It's a decent family car size without being a chelsea tractor style vehicle IMHO.


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## figbat (31 May 2022)

In this report* it states that there are three critical tipping points for consumer EV mass adoption in the UK (there are different numbers and different priorities for fleet managers):

Price below ~£23,700
Range above 455 km/283 miles
Charge time of 30 minutes

* a commercially-sponsored report - take it as you find it


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## figbat (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> Seat are behind the curve and don't have an EV available.


SEAT handed EV off to the Cupra brand - there's now the Cupra Born EV. No doubt there will be full EV SEAT-branded models in future but this is where it starts. A bit like Volvo carving Polestar off as the electrified brand, then electrifying the Volvos too.


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## vickster (31 May 2022)

icowden said:


> OK, so Skoda Fabia Estate boot capacity is 530 / 1395 litres and is 4.3m long
> ID4 is 4.5m long and has 543 / 1665 litres
> That's probably the closest match. Unfortunately as soon as you go less than 4.5m long the boot space reduces significantly.
> The Enyaq has huge boot space but is 4.6m long.
> ...



The boot is plenty big enough for me, seats down no need to take the front wheel off. I don’t need anything bigger  Just me and my bikes


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## tyred (31 May 2022)

presta said:


> Fiat are withdrawing all their petrol & diesel cars from sale in 31 days:
> https://news.motors.co.uk/fiat-announces-its-full-range-will-be-electrified-from-july/



Given their reputation for dodgy electrics, in the immortal words of Sgt. Wilson - "Do you think that's wise, sir?"


----------



## icowden (31 May 2022)

presta said:


> Fiat are withdrawing all their petrol & diesel cars from sale in 31 days:
> https://news.motors.co.uk/fiat-announces-its-full-range-will-be-electrified-from-july/



Let me fix that for you.



> Fiat are ensuring that all of their current petrol & diesel cars will be fitted with their mild hybrid technology that replaces the starter motor and alternator. The cars will not be able to run on electrical power alone and will still require diesel or petrol. But it's great PR.


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## cougie uk (31 May 2022)

figbat said:


> In this report* it states that there are three critical tipping points for consumer EV mass adoption in the UK (there are different numbers and different priorities for fleet managers):
> 
> Price below ~£23,700
> Range above 455 km/283 miles
> ...



I'll probably only get a charge away from home 6 days out of 365. Charge time isn't an issue for me and my range is only 145 or so.


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## icowden (31 May 2022)

figbat said:


> In this report* it states that there are three critical tipping points for consumer EV mass adoption in the UK (there are different numbers and different priorities for fleet managers):
> 
> Price below ~£23,700
> Range above 455 km/283 miles
> Charge time of 30 minutes


Really the first one is the tipping point. At the moment it's very expensive to buy most EVs - particularly the family size ones.


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## MrGrumpy (31 May 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I would call the Skoda Enyaq a small e-estate, although they call it an SUV.



Don’t tell this pesky lentil chomping tyre extinguishers about the Skoda . It will be on their hit list .


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## gzoom (31 May 2022)

midlife said:


> Couldn't buy an EV on my circa £3.5k budget so bought a Ford Ka...



You also cannot buy a new Ford Ka for £3.5k. If no one buys new EVs, there is zero change you will ever be able to buy an used EV for £3.5k.


----------



## Gunk (31 May 2022)

Profpointy said:


> not any more presumably



A mere bagatelle


----------



## Gunk (31 May 2022)

simongt said:


> On the subject of heaters, back in't day, I owned two VW Beetles. They were reknown for the cables to the heating shutoff panels to rust through. On one, they had rusted open; great in the winter, but in the summer, cor - ! T'other they'd rusted closed, so in the winter, we froze our a***s off - !



The heater channels also rust through, the heating on air cooled beetles is completely useless


----------



## midlife (31 May 2022)

gzoom said:


> You also cannot buy a new Ford Ka for £3.5k. If no one buys new EVs, there is zero change you will ever be able to buy an used EV for £3.5k.



There are people buying new EVs but still couldn't buy a used EV for my budget. 

There are many buyers who would buy a used EV if they were within their budget.... Me for one.


----------



## cyberknight (31 May 2022)

My employer is working toward a car sharing/ use on demand future where you dont own a vehicle permanently but lease when needed .


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

midlife said:


> There are people buying new EVs but still couldn't buy a used EV for my budget.
> There are many buyers who would buy a used EV if they were within their budget.... Me for one.


You need at least 5.5K. That will get you an older, high mileage Nissan Leaf. Although you will need the best part of £1000 to fit a home charger unless you are good with the leccy like @gzoom (I think it was @gzoom who had installed his own charging point).


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## vickster (1 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> You need at least 5.5K. That will get you an older, high mileage Nissan Leaf. Although you will need the best part of £1000 to fit a home charger unless you are good with the leccy like @gzoom (I think it was @gzoom who had installed his own charging point).



What's the situation with the batteries on one of those though, ie the cost of replacement? I've never personally bought a car with more than 50k miles on the clock and don't intend doing so in the future


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> What's the situation with the batteries on one of those though, ie the cost of replacement? I've never personally bought a car with more than 50k miles on the clock and don't intend doing so in the future


Replacing a battery on a leaf costs about £2000 now for a refabricated battery. It used to cost £20,000. Those 5-6k leafs will likely be first generation where the battery lasts about 100,000 to 150,000 miles. If it's second gen it's worth 200,000-300,000 miles. Although age degradation is also a thing. For newer cars, the battery is likely to last longer than the Car. 

That doesn't mean that the battery stops working, it just means that the range gets pretty short. For the original leaf (2011/12), it only started at about 73 or 109 miles tops (depending on how measured), so if 50% of the battery is gone, that does make your range short - although fine for a runabout. 

Looking on Autotrader I can see a 2011 leaf with 20,000 miles on the clock for 5k, but also one with 112,000 miles for 4.7k.


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## vickster (1 Jun 2022)

An old Leaf still doesn't meet my small estate practicality non-negotiable criteria though 
There was an MG estate parked around the corner, simply too big for me, not sure it would fit on my drive for starters!


----------



## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> An old Leaf still doesn't meet my small estate practicality non-negotiable criteria though
> There was an MG estate parked around the corner, simply too big for me, not sure it would fit on my drive for starters!


Nope - and I totally agree with you that there isn't really an EV small estate that isn't extremely expensive. Closest match is an ID4 and the cheapest second hand one I can find is £38,000, which is only about 5k cheaper than new.


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## vickster (1 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Nope - and I totally agree with you that there isn't really an EV small estate that isn't extremely expensive. Closest match is an ID4 and the cheapest second hand one I can find is £38,000, which is only about 5k cheaper than new.



Which is an utterly ridiculous amount of money for a car imo!


----------



## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Which is an utterly ridiculous amount of money for a car imo!


I'll not disagree. The only reason I am able to get one is that it is a company car, so I am not paying for about half of it. The down side is that I don't own it at the end of the lease either 😢

Although you do have to factor in:

Over 50% less cost in fuel (at the moment) - over 80% less if only home charging. Over 4 years at current rates, Diesel will cost me about £10,000. Leccy about £2,000
Almost no maintenance required.
No ULEZ or Congestion charge fees
No road tax (at the moment)


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## vickster (1 Jun 2022)

I do under 3k miles a year, the petrol costs aren't a burden for me even at around 180p a litre for super UL.
(my car is probably worth more than a year ago, VED is about £15 a month, insurance £400, no idea what a £30k EV would cost to insure, MOT £50, I've done so few miles since the last service I won't bother with anything more than an oil change this year, large service was last year)

I would never ever break even on a £30k EV - even if it never depreciated as I would lose the interest on the money to buy the thing
Presumably you have some level of tax burden on a Company car, even an electric one?

I expect the next battery powered mode of transport I buy (if any) would have 2 wheels and pedals that go round


----------



## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> I would never ever break even on a £30k EV - even if it never depreciated as I would lose the interest on the money to buy the thing
> Presumably you have some level of tax burden on a Company car, even an electric one?


The benefit in kind tax is 1% at the moment - so not much :-)

I spend about £200 per month on diesel, so that's about 800-900 miles in a month. That should reduce to about £20-£30 on leccy. So of the £425 lease, £150 is diesel savings. So cost wise it's about the same as I used to pay when I was buying the scenic but without the need for a deposit or to buy insurance. 

So yes, it is money down the drain but it means we have a nice new electric car for when we need a car (which is most days). 

But I agree that everyone has their own use case, and for many if not most people, it's difficult to justify the cash on electric. The best way to change it over is to learn from Norway where EVs are cheaper than ICE cars thanks to punitive taxes on ICE cars and incentives on EVs.


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## vickster (1 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> The benefit in kind tax is 1% at the moment - so not much :-)
> 
> I spend about £200 per month on diesel, so that's about 800-900 miles in a month. That should reduce to about £20-£30 on leccy. So of the £425 lease, £150 is diesel savings. So cost wise it's about the same as I used to pay when I was buying the scenic but without the need for a deposit or to buy insurance.
> 
> ...



Norway has bucket loads of money from selling oil to other countries and then subsidising EVs for its tiny 4m population. Not really comparable to the U.K. 

What’s the French or Italian stance on EVs for example of countries with a comparable population to here?


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## cougie uk (1 Jun 2022)

It's about the same in France I think. We are a bit bigger ? Germany in the lead in Europe. 
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-as-europe-second-largest-electric-car-market


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## MrGrumpy (1 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Norway has bucket loads of money from selling oil to other countries and then subsidising EVs for its tiny 4m population. Not really comparable to the U.K.
> 
> What’s the French or Italian stance on EVs for example of countries with a comparable population to here?



Well my holiday to said countries last month would suggest they run their cars into the ground  . Jokes aside , never saw many charging points in the towns/cities I visited. Did see the odd EV and some buses were EV as well .


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's about the same in France I think. We are a bit bigger ? Germany in the lead in Europe.
> https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-as-europe-second-largest-electric-car-market


Germany offers a 9000 euro incentive for BEVs. France a 7000 euro incentive. .
Norway does not levy VAT on BEVs giving a 25% discount on all vehicles (so for a £45,000 ID4 that would be about £12,000 off the price). In the meantime they levy an extra 25% on ICE vehicles. They have a ban on new ICE cars from 2025. 

Boris is paving the way by offering £1500 if your BEV costs less than £32k. Whoop!


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well my holiday to said countries last month would suggest they run their cars into the ground  . Jokes aside , never saw many charging points in the towns/cities I visited. Did see the odd EV and some buses were EV as well .



Norway’s excellent charge point network has also aided EV uptake – easing range anxiety and enabling drivers to visit most points of interest in the country without concern. Given the mountainous and often isolated terrain, this is particularly important. To support a network of more than 480,000 EVs there are now almost 17,000 charging stations across Norway, including more than 3,000 fast chargers. And you wont need to travel more than 30 miles to find your nearest rapid charge point.

France is getting there with about 37000 charge points although most are normal slow chargers. They have work to do.
Germany is aiming for a million charging points by 2030, and had 45,000 in 2020.

The UK has 32,000 devices with 53,000 connectors across 20,000 locations.

That said, companies like BP can smell the change in the wind and are investing a lot of money in EV infrastructure - they have announced a 1 billion pound investment in EV charging in anticipation of the reduction in demand for petrol and diesel.


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## simongt (1 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Passat sized?!


I had a Passat estate back in the late 80's Lovely car and looked stylishly functional. Then the bling monsters took over the VW design dept. - !


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## wiggydiggy (1 Jun 2022)

figbat said:


> In this report* it states that there are three critical tipping points for consumer EV mass adoption in the UK (there are different numbers and different priorities for fleet managers):
> 
> Price below ~£23,700
> Range above 455 km/283 miles
> ...



£23k is 10x what I've paid for each one of my cars, I accept next time I change there is a good reason to buy electric but if that's out of my or anyones affordability what then? (Not a personal question👍)

I'd really like an electric cat instead of my petrol but they're completely priced out of my range.

Edit: I miss spelled and am not changing it🐈‍⬛


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> £23k is 10x what I've paid for each one of my cars, I accept next time I change there is a good reason to buy electric but if that's out of my or anyones affordability what then? (Not a personal question👍)


The "what then" is to wait for one of more of the following:

The Government to provide better incentives
EV tech to become cheaper to create as adoption becomes more widespread
EV second hand car market grows such that cars depreciate much more
Personally we chose to buy a new Grand Scenic when we had kids, for a small deposit and £290 per month over about 5 years (15k total plus interest). Many people now don't buy the car at all but effectively "hire" it using PCP or lease. The bigger EVs will work out expensive on PCP, but the smaller ones aren't *that* pricey. For 6 grand down you could buy a top of the range Nissan Leaf for about £350 a month, which isn't *too* bad for many middle class families.

Obviously work needs to be done. If we killed the VAT like Norway, the prices would be able to really shift and EV take up would rocket.


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## MrGrumpy (1 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> The "what then" is to wait for one of more of the following:
> 
> The Government to provide better incentives
> EV tech to become cheaper to create as adoption becomes more widespread
> ...



It’s a no brainer killing VAT but the money would have to come from somewhere else ? Norway uses their oil income that WE pay for  . Things will move we know that , just feel with the current world climate it’s slowed down a bit .


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## icowden (1 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s a no brainer killing VAT but the money would have to come from somewhere else ? Norway uses their oil income that WE pay for  .


Actually I think the initial offset for the VAT was to apply a corresponding tax on ICE cars. I agree about the Oil though.


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## gzoom (2 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> never saw many charging points in the towns/cities I visited.



We are in France right now with 2 EVs, loads of 22KW chargers pretty much in very small village car park. Both EV right now are at 90%+ charge status, its actually easier to own/charge an EV in France than the UK.

We are driving through Holland, Germany for a final destination of Norway in 6 weeks again, I suspect we will find the same. UK lags far behind Europe in EV infrastructure.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> We are in France right now with 2 EVs, loads of 22KW chargers pretty much in very small village car park. Both EV right now are at 90%+ charge status, its actually easier to own/charge an EV in France than the UK.


well I think you have just reinforced the point made in here numerous times. As to why EV owning is lagging in the UK.


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## gzoom (2 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> As to why EV owning is lagging in the UK.



I've had an EV for 7 years in the UK with no issues. Came across an twin RHD Model X when in a French Supermarket today.

Clearly the majority of EV owners have little issue with range anxiety .


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## cougie uk (2 Jun 2022)

All depends on your usage. As I've said 359 days out of 365 I have no need to charge away from home.


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## CXRAndy (4 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> All depends on your usage. As I've said 359 days out of 365 I have no need to charge away from home.



This true for me too. Naysayers always go one about travelling distance whilst the vast majority rarely do it more than a couple of times a year.


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## icowden (4 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> This true for me too. Naysayers always go one about travelling distance whilst the vast majority rarely do it more than a couple of times a year.


One of my checks when I was considering going electric was about distance and whether it was important. I worked out that in a given year:

Multiple trips to the new forest to visit the in-laws - 83 miles.
A couple of trips to Worcester to see my mum - 120 miles
Possibly a trip to the Isle of Wight - 78 miles.
Other than that all trips probably less than 10 miles(School runs, shopping etc).

Any long driving trip is going to be an exception, not the rule. It's possible that one year we might drive to France and go skiing, travelling the best part of 700 miles. It's unlikely though. The longest journey we have ever done was to the Lake district, 311 miles. But we stayed at my mum's on the way up and at Alton Towers on the way back. The Towers *still* doesn't have any chargers, so we would probably have had to do at least one rapid charge on the motorway. BUt again it's an exception and just needs a little planning.

The ID4 is going to have plenty of range for me. I can trickle some charge at the in-laws from a 240v plug, or drive 15 minutes up to Lymington for a rapid charge. At my mum's there's plenty of charging points in Worcester (probably not there long enough to warrant a trickle charge).

The Isle of Wight is probably the trickiest as not many charging points and a lot of the ones that are there don't work!


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## CXRAndy (5 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> One of my checks when I was considering going electric was about distance and whether it was important. I worked out that in a given year:
> 
> Multiple trips to the new forest to visit the in-laws - 83 miles.
> A couple of trips to Worcester to see my mum - 120 miles
> ...



We stayed on a campsite with our Model S. I trickle charged it to 95% whilst we cycled and walked around the New Forest. I noted there weren't many convenient charge places on the IOW, so having plenty of range from the campsite to go down and visit all the places was easy.


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## gzoom (5 Jun 2022)

Just got back from the first foreign holiday since COVID. Our 5 year + old Tesla held up very well compared to a brand new larger battery ID4, travel times very pretty much identical in convoy.

All the kids were just wanted to ride in the X, and absolutely zero issue with public charging in the UK or France for either the Tesla or the ID4.

This trip only totalled 750miles, cost of fuel was £25 spends on public charging in France and me trying out a none Tesla charger in the UK. The trip is a preparation for Norway in a few weeks....We'll be covering 780 miles in the first 24hrs of that trip!! Cannot wait.


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## icowden (5 Jun 2022)

gzoom said:


> All the kids were just wanted to ride in the X, and absolutely zero issue with public charging in the UK or France for either the Tesla or the ID4.


Can you blame them? I mean the X is just *cool. *Those doors! Double the price of the ID4 though :-(


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## icowden (14 Jun 2022)

More winning from the Government:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61795693


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## MrGrumpy (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> More winning from the Government:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61795693


The price needs to come down . However it’s not exactly going to do the shift to EV much good. I believe also the charger grant is gone as well .


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## vickster (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> More winning from the Government:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61795693


Winning?


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## CXRAndy (14 Jun 2022)

The sales of EVs battery only has really taken off in the UK.

There are 480,000 BEV and 390k plug in hybrids. 

Hybrids sales are falling, whilst BEV is still showing very big year on year growth.


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## icowden (14 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Hybrids sales are falling, whilst BEV is still showing very big year on year growth.


It's all the people who listened to the Government and bought Diesels now frantically trying to get rid of them!


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## Electric_Andy (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> It's all the people who listened to the Government and bought Diesels now frantically trying to get rid of them!



Not sure about that. It's common to see 2.0L Diesel VW's with 120k on the clock with dealers asking 6k


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## fossyant (14 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Winning?



Subsidising wealthy people to buy a leccy car. I'm not paying those prices for a boring tin box.


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## fossyant (14 Jun 2022)

icowden said:


> Can you blame them? I mean the X is just *cool. *Those doors! Double the price of the ID4 though :-(



Specsavers !


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## classic33 (14 Jun 2022)

Sales of new electric vehicles was down by 8.7%, to the end of May, compared to the same period last year.


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## fossyant (14 Jun 2022)

Sales - defined by low crazy low BIK for company car leases etc - that's how the Gov't sold deisels to all company car drivers with the low CO2 tax, us petrol lot got hit. I don't regret the 2.5 V6 Vectra or the Alfa 147 2.0 Selespeed - very fun cars, but lots of issues. Went sensibe and got Nissan.

Sales are being driven by the company car lot and the crazy BIK on £70k leccy 'trucks' - they aren't cars...


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## CXRAndy (14 Jun 2022)

classic33 said:


> Sales of new electric vehicles was down by 8.7%, to the end of May, compared to the same period last year.



Overall sales continue to be very strong year on year. 






ICE vehicles are seeing drop off in new sales, especially diesel. Also petrol seeing big decline


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## MrGrumpy (15 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> Sales - defined by low crazy low BIK for company car leases etc - that's how the Gov't sold deisels to all company car drivers with the low CO2 tax, us petrol lot got hit. I don't regret the 2.5 V6 Vectra or the Alfa 147 2.0 Selespeed - very fun cars, but lots of issues. Went sensibe and got Nissan.
> 
> Sales are being driven by the company car lot and the crazy BIK on £70k leccy 'trucks' - they aren't cars...



Certainly our company now only allow EVs. Company car users are having to ditch their diesel or petrol motors . Mileage as well is being hammered , so for us whom use our own cars for business trips , the mileage claim is vastly reduced.


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## figbat (15 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Mileage as well is being hammered , so for us whom use our own cars for business trips , the mileage claim is vastly reduced.



I thought this was set by HMRC? 45p/mile regardless of fuel type for the first 10,000 miles and 25p/mile after that.


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## Alex321 (15 Jun 2022)

figbat said:


> I thought this was set by HMRC? 45p/mile regardless of fuel type for the first 10,000 miles and 25p/mile after that.



No, that is just the maximum that can be claimed without being subject to tax.

There is no statutory amount which employers have to give.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Jun 2022)

figbat said:


> I thought this was set by HMRC? 45p/mile regardless of fuel type for the first 10,000 miles and 25p/mile after that.



The green agenda at work has slashed it. I’d need to go dig out the email . However it’s grim even for EVs.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (17 Jun 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The green agenda at work has slashed it. I’d need to go dig out the email . However it’s grim even for EVs.



Really not good for many who are reliant on using their own cars for their employers business needs. The Care Industry in particular are struggling with recruitment and retention as the costs for carers to travel between clients is outweighing the remuneration.
I'm in the fortunate position of mainly working from home these days.


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## cougie uk (17 Jun 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Really not good for many who are reliant on using their own cars for their employers business needs. The Care Industry in particular are struggling with recruitment and retention as the costs for carers to travel between clients is outweighing the remuneration.
> I'm in the fortunate position of mainly working from home these days.



I see a lot of very nice cars used by carers ? Some kind of leasing agreement ?


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I see a lot of very nice cars used by carers ? Some kind of leasing agreement ?




What’s a nice car ?


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jun 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Really not good for many who are reliant on using their own cars for their employers business needs. The Care Industry in particular are struggling with recruitment and retention as the costs for carers to travel between clients is outweighing the remuneration.
> I'm in the fortunate position of mainly working from home these days.



Indeed , its only going to get worse as costs increase. Energy costs, food , fearful for the Autumn/Winter with the vulnerable .


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## Phaeton (22 Jun 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Really not good for many who are reliant on using their own cars for their employers business needs. The Care Industry in particular are struggling with recruitment and retention as the costs for carers to travel between clients is outweighing the remuneration.
> I'm in the fortunate position of mainly working from home these days.


Yes my daughter only gets 27p per mile between clients, the cynic in me believes the employer is claiming the full 46p & not passing it on. It really is a shitty industry, she often has to be at the first call at 7am & doesn't leave the last one until 21:30 then gets paid 8 hours, it would not be accepted in any other industry, it's not like they don't charge ridiculous amounts to the patients.


cougie uk said:


> I see a lot of very nice cars used by carers ? Some kind of leasing agreement ?


I think the issue is they need a reliable car, this unfortunately provide them it

I get sidetracked, what I came here to put was son works for a company delivering medical equipment, they have just taken delivery of a couple of Mercedes Sprinters EV's the first was delivered left over the weekend then had to be dragged back onto the low loader as the battery had gone flat & they were not able to get into it. He's gone out in the replacement today, it was 100% charged when he got in it, he did 3.5 miles & it's now showing 90% 







His average milage is 110 a day, if I read that right it says he's only got 75 miles left & that's in economy mode.


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## cougie uk (22 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes my daughter only gets 27p per mile between clients, the cynic in me believes the employer is claiming the full 46p & not passing it on. It really is a shitty industry, she often has to be at the first call at 7am & doesn't leave the last one until 21:30 then gets paid 8 hours, it would not be accepted in any other industry, it's not like they don't charge ridiculous amounts to the patients.
> 
> I think the issue is they need a reliable car, this unfortunately provide them it
> 
> ...



Amazon have been using electric vans for a few years now - I think they are Mercedes so I wonder what your son's company is doing to their fleet ?


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## CXRAndy (22 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes my daughter only gets 27p per mile between clients, the cynic in me believes the employer is claiming the full 46p & not passing it on. It really is a shitty industry, she often has to be at the first call at 7am & doesn't leave the last one until 21:30 then gets paid 8 hours, it would not be accepted in any other industry, it's not like they don't charge ridiculous amounts to the patients.
> 
> I think the issue is they need a reliable car, this unfortunately provide them it
> 
> ...



Some manufacturers have very poor range o meters. Nissan's famously was called guessometer. Tesla are far the best for accuracy. 

Now it looks on the face of it your son's company has not done their research on vehicle capabilities for range. If your son is doing 110 most days and the Merc E Sprinter is returning 75-90 miles. There will be a charging stop required. Not a problem if the delivery schedule is not filled each and every day. 

The Ford Transit would have been a better choice with around 160 miles genuine range.


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## Phaeton (22 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Amazon have been using electric vans for a few years now - I think they are Mercedes so I wonder what your son's company is doing to their fleet ?


No idea as far as I know they are just charging & using, looks like it's only done 272 miles from new


CXRAndy said:


> The Ford Transit would have been a better choice with around 160 miles genuine range.


No idea again, they are a National company so maybe it works in other depots where the mileage isn't as high, but agreed maybe it's just bad research, or maybe Mercedes are giving better discounts, so the fact they won't do the work was ignored.


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## CXRAndy (22 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Mercedes are giving better discounts, so the fact they won't do the work was ignored.



That could well be the case. 

Accounting has overlooked or overruled procurement department. Or there are loyalties to certain brands blinding practicalities


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## Phaeton (22 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That could well be the case.
> 
> Accounting has overlooked or overruled procurement department. Or there are loyalties to certain brands blinding practicalities



They do normally drive Sprinters so maybe it's part of an existing deal, not sure if they are permanent or on trial, but they have fitted chargers in the yard, although they have 9 vans & only space to charge 2 vans, son normally takes his home as he's on call, but he has no facility to charge it as it's on street parking


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## byegad (22 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Amazon have been using electric vans for a few years now - I think they are Mercedes so I wonder what your son's company is doing to their fleet ?



Range depends on driving technique to a great extent. Lifting early and regenerating as you coast up to a stop adds many a mile to range. Drive it so you are either using the throttle or the brake and never coasting will eat range.


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## Phaeton (22 Jun 2022)

byegad said:


> Range depends on driving technique to a great extent. Lifting early and regenerating as you coast up to a stop adds many a mile to range. Drive it so you are either using the throttle or the brake and never coasting will eat range.



Boss who lives in the US is currently over here he has a couple of EV's & was saying exactly that, his aim to only ever drive with 1 pedal


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## Alex321 (22 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Yes my daughter only gets 27p per mile between clients, the cynic in me believes the employer is claiming the full 46p & not passing it on.


I don't think you understand how this works.

There is no "full 46p" to claim and not pass on.

The employer can pay whatever mileage allowance they like. 

The *employee* can claim up to 45p/mile for the first 10,000 miles in a year, then 25p/mile after that without it being subject to tax. So long as the amount is within those limits, it doesn't even have to be declared on the tax forms. If it goes beyond those limits, it has to be declared, and you will be taxed at your highest marginal rate on the "excess".


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## CXRAndy (22 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Boss who lives in the US is currently over here he has a couple of EV's & was saying exactly that, his aim to only ever drive with 1 pedal



Having driven EVs for 4 years now, it is so alien to have to apply the brakes to slow down a car.


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## Phaeton (22 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I don't think you understand how this works.


I suspect you are correct, when I used to work for a very large national company, on the rare occasions I used my own vehicle they paid me the highest HMRC rate available. When I was self employed I just advised the accountant of the mileage, the servicing costs & handed over the receipts for fuel I have no idea what e did with the information. 

But in this instance 'she' the employer has told the staff not worry about the mileage, she calculates the distance between the calls then pays them 27p as stated I would not be surprised if 'she' was not then submitting a claim on each employees behalf claiming the mileage from the HMRC & not passing the actual amount on, I trust her as far as I could throw Geoff Capes, she was a nice person until she worked out how much money she could make out of this caper.


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## Alex321 (22 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I suspect you are correct, when I used to work for a very large national company, on the rare occasions I used my own vehicle they paid me the highest HMRC rate available. When I was self employed I just advised the accountant of the mileage, the servicing costs & handed over the receipts for fuel I have no idea what e did with the information.
> 
> But in this instance 'she' the employer has told the staff not worry about the mileage, she calculates the distance between the calls then pays them 27p as stated I would not be surprised if 'she' was not then submitting a claim on each employees behalf claiming the mileage from the HMRC & not passing the actual amount on, I trust her as far as I could throw Geoff Capes, she was a nice person until she worked out how much money she could make out of this caper.



HMRC don't pay you anything. There is nothing she can "claim and then not pass on".

HMRC don't even need to be told about any mileage payments that are less than or equal to the 45p/25p per mile. No claim is made. The employer simply cannot make any money out of paying one rate but claiming another.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Jun 2022)

byegad said:


> Range depends on driving technique to a great extent. Lifting early and regenerating as you coast up to a stop adds many a mile to range. Drive it so you are either using the throttle or the brake and never coasting will eat range.



Got stuck behind one of those !! Was rather annoying . Ended up having to go round them .


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## Richard A Thackeray (26 Jun 2022)

I've just watched a bit of the Goodwood Festival, when I got home from work

Heck!!, that McMurty, wow.............


Oh!. & the Ford Supervan 4
Electric, & stated to be the equivilant of 2,000BHP


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## CharlesF (27 Jun 2022)

And the McMurtry is road legal, according to Alex in the interview after his run.


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## Phaeton (27 Jun 2022)

CharlesF said:


> And the McMurtry is road legal, according to Alex in the interview after his run.



Or designed with the intention of after modification being road legal


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Perfect for nipping down to the shops. If the shop is on top of a hill accessed by an unrestricted speed road. 
Or if you're Batman.


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## Phaeton (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Perfect for nipping down to the shops. If the shop is on top of a hill accessed by an unrestricted speed road.
> Or if you're Batman.



They claim or at least the driver was suggesting you would be able to live in London with it, drive up to Silverstone spend a day howling around the track, then charge it up for the journey back, seems a little optimistic to me, but who knows.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgL8_1GDI0


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## Richard A Thackeray (27 Jun 2022)

It's so small as well
Which as they stated was an advantage on the track, due to the narrow width


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## SpokeyDokey (27 Jun 2022)

The Gov' subsidies only made sense as a kickstart measure to boost initial uptake of EV's.

To continue them is absurd - someone in the £50-150k car purchasing ballpark hardly needs subsidising imo.


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## icowden (27 Jun 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> The Gov' subsidies only made sense as a kivkstart measure to boost initial uptake of EV's.
> To continue them is absurd - someone in the £50-150k car purchasing ballpark hardly needs subsidising imo.


I agree to a point. There was a subsidy for EVs under £35,000. What the subsidy failed to do though was look at the price of EVs. If a family sized EV costs £40k-£50k , you need the subsidy to bring that cost down so that families can afford to go electric. That's the point of the subsidy. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we subsidise people buying a brand new Tesla S or X.

Norway did this very effectively whilst also putting a 25% tax on ICE cars to make EVs more appealing. It's cheaper to buy an EV than an ICE in Norway. End of.


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They claim or at least the driver was suggesting you would be able to live in London with it, drive up to Silverstone spend a day howling around the track, then charge it up for the journey back, seems a little optimistic to me, but who knows.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgL8_1GDI0




That's a niche market there.


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## Phaeton (27 Jun 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That's a niche market there.



It is, even more so as a single seater, make me wonder why, unless the space down either side is used for the ducting to the rear


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## cougie uk (27 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It is, even more so as a single seater, make me wonder why, unless the space down either side is used for the ducting to the rear



Incredible that this is a viable market for some manufacturers.


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## Richard A Thackeray (27 Jun 2022)

Just watched a bit of last nights _Top Gear_
I'm partway through the_ Rivian_ section

If they were given the correct figures, from (essentially) $0, to $127 billion, in days

That's going to be a company with big expectations of it now!
The *R1S* looks damned good!!
($72,000!!)

https://rivian.com/


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## CXRAndy (27 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It is, even more so as a single seater, make me wonder why, unless the space down either side is used for the ducting to the rear



Only proper EVs have a frunk and trunk👍


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## DRM (27 Jun 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Just watched a bit of last nights _Top Gear_
> I'm partway through the_ Rivian_ section
> 
> If they were given the correct figures, from (essentially) $0, to $127 billion, in days
> ...



And the driver of the Dodge Viper drag racer must be absolutely gutted


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## CXRAndy (28 Jun 2022)

The Mcgurty squirty has truly made EVs the future kings of Goodwood. Just watched the video, ICE supercars prototypes are history


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## Richard A Thackeray (28 Jun 2022)

Phaeton said:


> They claim or at least the driver was suggesting you would be able to live in London with it, drive up to Silverstone spend a day howling around the track, then charge it up for the journey back, seems a little optimistic to me, but who knows.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTgL8_1GDI0




It's also a way of making the name known, & maybe some form of research vehicle?
Make it less outlandish, convert the performance factor to a better range (same range, from lighter batteries?)

Personally, I'd love to see the Morgan Life-Car technology filter to other vehicles
From what I've read of it, Morgan seemed to have taken onboard Colin Chapmans phrase;


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## Richard A Thackeray (28 Jun 2022)

Going back to Goodwood, & the McMurtry

The hill-climb course is stated as being 1,890m long

The record for an internal combustion engined vehicle is; 41.6 seconds
(set by a McLaren Formula 1)
That puts the McMurtry run into some perspective!!!!............. 39.08 


*EDIT @ 14:40*
Look how small it is too!!








Rear-wheel drive only, barely any slip/wheel-spin due to the massive downforce (from 0 MPH)
0-186MPH (300kph) in 'under 9 seconds'


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yN4lFpvYz0


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## fossyant (28 Jun 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Going back to Goodwood, & the McMurty
> 
> The hill-climb course is stated as being 1,890m long
> 
> ...



Its only a couple of seconds and sounds like a screaming milk float. No vroom . No v12 noise.


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## Richard A Thackeray (28 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> Its only a couple of seconds and sounds like a screaming milk float. No vroom . No v12 noise.


True, but the seconds (& 1/10ths) count
I'd sooner hear a NASCAR V8, than a V12, or Bob Riggle & the '_Hemi Under Glass_'
(462ci & 2,500 HP)


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZKsaPk5wtg


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## Alex321 (28 Jun 2022)

fossyant said:


> Its only a couple of seconds and sounds like a screaming milk float. No vroom . No v12 noise.



A couple of seconds is 5% in that context.


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## CXRAndy (28 Jun 2022)

Alex321 said:


> A couple of seconds is 5% in that context.



In terms of performance, it crushed the previous best ICE by a country mile. Only the VW IDR EV got into the sub 40sec bracket. 

Like I've mentioned before, even my modest Nissan Leaf out performs all but the higher performance vehicles currently on the road. My Model S is a country mile more powerful.


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## figbat (28 Jun 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Just watched a bit of last nights _Top Gear_
> I'm partway through the_ Rivian_ section
> 
> If they were given the correct figures, from (essentially) $0, to $127 billion, in days
> ...



I’d love an R1T but they are big things and would struggle to fit on our drive!


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## Richard A Thackeray (28 Jun 2022)

figbat said:


> I’d love an R1T but they are big things and would struggle to fit on our drive!


Circa 3 tons too, Flintoff stated!
Still, that's not too much heavier than a Discovery 3 (or 4)

Max height; 77.3 in (with antenna)
Length; 200.8 in
Wheelbase; 121.1 in
Width; 81.8 in (side mirrors folded)


The Q7, as a comparison, as it's one of the bigger 'SUV's (cm - inches - feet)


Length506.4199.3716.60Width19777.566.46Height170.367.055.58Wheelbase299.9118.079.83


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## Phaeton (28 Jun 2022)

figbat said:


> I’d love an R1T but they are big things and would struggle to fit on our drive!



I was wondering what you were on about having watched TG last night, but then realised we only watched Ep2


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## Richard A Thackeray (3 Jul 2022)

Re; the electric Defender on tonights _Top Gear_


From seeing it elsewhere, I think (not certain) that the '_Vintage Voltage_' lot were involved; https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/

*EDIT@ 21:20*
Yes, it was that company
V B-H liked it too

450BHP/498Ib/ft of torque
0-60; 3.8 seconds!!

Standing start, at about 2:00

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifIdJ9G7Sxw


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## fossyant (3 Jul 2022)

Daft question for Tesla owners. The adaptive driving, or what it's called where the car responds to throttle, and slows when you let off. Sounds great in practice, but not good when you've a Tesla driver in front of you on a motorway, and he suddenly lets off the go pedal on a clear motorway, the car slows quickly without a brake light coming on, and it's like braking - I had to brake. He nearly got a Range Rover in his back at one point (not us).


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## figbat (3 Jul 2022)

EVs have to show brake lights if they decelerate above a certain threshold. Mine shows brake lights for ANY regen deceleration. So whilst I rarely touch the brake pedal, the brake lights come on frequently.

The same is not true for motorbikes though - my last V-twin would almost stand on its nose when I rolled off but no brake lights shown. It was something I had to be wary of.


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## cougie uk (4 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Daft question for Tesla owners. The adaptive driving, or what it's called where the car responds to throttle, and slows when you let off. Sounds great in practice, but not good when you've a Tesla driver in front of you on a motorway, and he suddenly lets off the go pedal on a clear motorway, the car slows quickly without a brake light coming on, and it's like braking - I had to brake. He nearly got a Range Rover in his back at one point (not us).



That shouldn't happen. My leaf shows brake lights when I take my foot off the pedal. 
It's a lovely way to drive. Hardly have to touch the brakes at all.


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## fossyant (4 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That shouldn't happen. My leaf shows brake lights when I take my foot off the pedal.
> It's a lovely way to drive. Hardly have to touch the brakes at all.



I know it probably shouldn't, but his brake lights didn't come on until he actually braked - so they did work, but my word it suddenly slowed when taking off the gas.


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## DRM (4 Jul 2022)

Even electric forklifts that are fitted with road going lights show brake lights as soon as you take your foot off the accelerator pedal and it regen brakes, as well as when you press the brake pedal to stop the thing


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2022)

Just been talking to the lady in our accounts department, she got in her husbands E-Pace on Saturday to go somewhere, started to reverse it off the drive & a tortoise symbol appeared on the dash. She did try to drive up the road & it topped out at 5mph, she had to come back & jump in her own 15 year old diesel Toyota to make the journey. This is not the first time they've been let down with the E-Pace & feel like there always has to be another car on standby for it.

Jaguar tech came out yesterday, advised it needed a software update, spent 10 minutes doing it & all is now right again. But how can Jaguar think it acceptable to do that? They were lucky they were at home with alternative transport, what if they hadn't been at home? Surely the updates could be installed automatically via WiFi or installed SIM (if it has one)


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## DRM (4 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> I know it probably shouldn't, but his brake lights didn't come on until he actually braked - so they did work, but my word it suddenly slowed when taking off the gas.


I think someone has been tinkering around with the settings for the regenerative braking, it should not slow that rapidly and the brake lights should come on too


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## fossyant (4 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Just been talking to the lady in our accounts department, she got in her husbands E-Pace on Saturday to go somewhere, started to reverse it off the drive & a tortoise symbol appeared on the dash. She did try to drive up the road & it topped out at 5mph, she had to come back & jump in her own 15 year old diesel Toyota to make the journey. This is not the first time they've been let down with the E-Pace & feel like there always has to be another car on standby for it.
> 
> Jaguar tech came out yesterday, advised it needed a software update, spent 10 minutes doing it & all is now right again. But how can Jaguar think it acceptable to do that? They were lucky they were at home with alternative transport, what if they hadn't been at home? Surely the updates could be installed automatically via WiFi or installed SIM (if it has one)




It's a Jag, leccy or oil burner, they are all shoot. JRL cars need to be avoided, as the electronics in them are messed up. Colleague is on first mane terms with the Landrover Technicians with his Evoque. It's always faulty - usually an electrical issue.


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## icowden (4 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Jaguar tech came out yesterday, advised it needed a software update, spent 10 minutes doing it & all is now right again. But how can Jaguar think it acceptable to do that? They were lucky they were at home with alternative transport, what if they hadn't been at home? Surely the updates could be installed automatically via WiFi or installed SIM (if it has one)


Yep, but Jag are an ICE manufacturer dabbling in EV. If you want a proper EV go to an EV manufacturer that has put in the work.


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> If you want a proper EV


No thank you.


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## SpokeyDokey (4 Jul 2022)

What's the position now, or even thoughts for the future, re taxation on electricity used to charge cars? 

Clearly the loss of current ICE fuel taxation will need to be recouped somewhere.


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Daft question for Tesla owners. The adaptive driving, or what it's called where the car responds to throttle, and slows when you let off. Sounds great in practice, but not good when you've a Tesla driver in front of you on a motorway, and he suddenly lets off the go pedal on a clear motorway, the car slows quickly without a brake light coming on, and it's like braking - I had to brake. He nearly got a Range Rover in his back at one point (not us).



It's called regenerative braking (regen). Brake lights do come on automatically when you lift off quickly. If you ease off power the car slows down, a bit quicker than an ICE, but it's controllable.

For the range rover, obviously wasn't driving with the sensible 2 sec gap which at 70mph is a minimum of 205ft or 68yds.

To summarize the range rover driver was a complete dickhead. Trying to blame the guy in front


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

The Jaguar E pace isn't electric its low emission ICE

I presume she means I Pace which is a full EV, however still designed around an ICE platform. 

Buy once buy Tesla


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## roubaixtuesday (4 Jul 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> What's the position now, or even thoughts for the future, re taxation on electricity used to charge cars?
> 
> Clearly the loss of current ICE fuel taxation will need to be recouped somewhere.



This is an issue being studiously ignored by the political class. 

Road pricing seems the only way.


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## roubaixtuesday (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> To summarize the range rover driver was a complete dickhead.



Never. Just not possible.


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I presume she means I Pace which is a full EV, however still designed around an ICE platform.
> 
> Buy once buy Tesla


That was me, I have no idea the difference between them, but I do know it's a 100% EV I just assumes E for 'Electric'

But just like Apple I'm not sure Tesla is the answer.


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But just like Apple I'm not sure Tesla is the answer.



I don't want Tesla's to be the only EV company, others have to catch up, I can't honestly recommend anything else - yet


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## gzoom (4 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Daft question for Tesla owners. The adaptive driving, or what it's called where the car responds to throttle, and slows when you let off. Sounds great in practice, but not good when you've a Tesla driver in front of you on a motorway, and he suddenly lets off the go pedal on a clear motorway, the car slows quickly without a brake light coming on, and it's like braking - I had to brake. He nearly got a Range Rover in his back at one point (not us).



As mentioned this is why people shouldn't tail gate for any kind of reason.

The brake lights in ALL evs follow very clear regulations set out by the EU. I belive its based on deceleration rates detected, essentially once the car starts slowing down significantly the brake lights WILL come on.


If the brake lights don't come on, than the rate of deceleration is pretty minor and not far off what engine braking does in a combustion car, if someone runs into some else because they were following so closely behind they couldn't anticipate/manage engine braking the fault is pretty clearly with the following driver.


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## Phaeton (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I don't want Tesla's to be the only EV company, others have to catch up, I can't honestly recommend anything else - yet



It's not the technology, it's the ethos I object to, although I can almost guarantee I will never own a Tesla as they want to control everything about the vehicle. 

Unless they have changed their views, there was a guy in the US he bought one that was written off in an accident & another written off in a flood. He wanted to take the good battery out of the accident damaged one & put it in the flood damaged one, they wouldn't even sell him plastic door clips for either vehicle as they knew both vehicles were written off. No manufacturer should have that much power.


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## figbat (4 Jul 2022)

I've found various sources (although nothing primary) that seem to agree that according to regulations in the UK, for a deceleration rate...

less than or equal to 0.7 m/s/s the signal shall not be generated
greater than 0.7 m/s/s and less than or equal to 1.3 m/s/s the signal may be generated
greater than 1.3 m/s/s the signal shall be generated.
For context, a decel rate of 9.8 m/s/s is "one G" and is around the hardest braking that most people will ever do.

If a Tesla or any other electric car is not doing this then it is defective or interfered with. Just like any of the countless ICE cars I have followed over the years whose brake light switch was either jammed on or not working meaning no brake light warning when the vehicle was slowing.


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Unless they have changed their views, there was a guy in the US he bought one that was written off in an accident & another written off in a flood. He wanted to take the good battery out of the accident damaged one & put it in the flood damaged one, they wouldn't even sell him plastic door clips for either vehicle as they knew both vehicles were written off. No manufacturer should have that much power



lm fully aware of Rich Rebuilds YouTube channel. He has done quite a lot to bring Tesla's less savoury attitudes to the media. Tesla have changed their ways off the back of his campaigns. He did build one good model S out of two write-off vehicles. To this day his daughter still drives it. Tesla locked down their supercharger network to non certified repaired vehicles on the premise of safety -which you can't argue with. Partly the reason Tesla locked out repaired vehicles was the huge negative publicity Rich Rebuilds was creating. Until his campaign he was able to supercharge his own rebuilt model S.

What Rich did was force Tesla to allow non authorised repairers full access to Tesla service data and diagnostics. You can repair Tesla's,it's just not as easy


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## DRM (4 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> I think someone has been tinkering around with the settings for the regenerative braking, it should not slow that rapidly and the brake lights should come on too





CXRAndy said:


> It's called regenerative braking (regen). Brake lights do come on automatically when you lift off quickly. If you ease off power the car slows down, a bit quicker than an ICE, but it's controllable.
> 
> For the range rover, obviously wasn't driving with the sensible 2 sec gap which at 70mph is a minimum of 205ft or 68yds.
> 
> To summarize the range rover driver was a complete dickhead. Trying to blame the guy in front


Not necessarily, to me the owner of the Tesla has been tinkering with the settings that adjust the regen braking, or the car is faulty, it should slow in a similar fashion to an ice car on over run not brake check the car behind without displaying brake lights!


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

I beg to differ, various vehicles have different levels of deceleration depending on engine type.

I love the way EVs rapidly decelerate. Reminds me of riding torquey V twin motorcycles. 

Also means I never need to use the cars brakes -except emergency situations.

If you need to brake aggressively for the vehicle in front, you're far too close to it whilst moving


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## Richard A Thackeray (4 Jul 2022)

I emailed _Top Gear _earlier, with the suggestion that, for the new series, they try to get the McMurtry onto the track
If they could, that will be_ very_ interesting..............


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## DRM (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I beg to differ, various vehicles have different levels of deceleration depending on engine type.
> 
> I love the way EVs rapidly decelerate. Reminds me of riding torquey V twin motorcycles.
> 
> ...



Not always, if the brake lights of the vehicle in front don’t work, then the driver following can find themselves having to brake aggressively as there’s no clue that they’re braking till you realise you’re getting very close, very quickly


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Not always, if the brake lights of the vehicle in front don’t work, then the driver following can find themselves having to brake aggressively as there’s no clue that they’re braking till you realise you’re getting very close, very quickly



It comes down to having the necessary thinking and braking time from the vehicle in front. I reckon 80% of drivers flagrantly disregard the 2 sec rule and literally drive a cars length or less tailgating. It's always possible the car in front has defective brake lights. That is why the safe driving guidance is to give yourself space to react to the unexpected.

It has nothing to do whether it's an EV, torquey V twin bike or any other vehicle. 

If you can't perceive a change in pace stay further back.

.


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## classic33 (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> It's called regenerative braking (regen). Brake lights do come on automatically when you lift off quickly. If you ease off power the car slows down, a bit quicker than an ICE, but it's controllable.
> 
> For the range rover, obviously wasn't driving with the sensible 2 sec gap which at 70mph is a minimum of 205ft or 68yds.
> 
> To summarize the range rover driver was a complete dickhead. Trying to blame the guy in front


_"The Highway Code tells drivers to allow at least a two-second gap between you and the vehicle in front on roads carrying faster-moving traffic and in tunnels where visibility is reduced. The gap should be wider as speeds increase. It rises to 2.4 seconds – about 53 metres – when driving at 50mph* and 3.1 seconds – or 96 metres – at 70mph.*_


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...rs-to-use-the-two-second-rule-in-new-campaign


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## ClichéGuevara (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> It comes down to having the necessary thinking and braking time from the vehicle in front. I reckon 80% of drivers flagrantly disregard the 2 sec rule and literally drive a cars length or less tailgating. It's always possible the car in front has defective brake lights. *That is why the safe driving guidance is to give yourself space to react to the unexpected.*
> 
> It has nothing to do whether it's an EV, torquey V twin bike or any other vehicle.
> 
> ...



What if you're trying to stay 2 seconds away from the car _behind_ you?


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## CXRAndy (4 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> What if you're trying to stay 2 seconds away from the car _behind_ you?



Then you're not paying most of youtr attention to the vehicle or hazard in front.

If someone is hassling you, keep a steady pace and maintain your frontal gap. Then the impatient driver will overtake and use your space in front. You then ease off and re establish the minimum 2 sec gap


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## DRM (4 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> It comes down to having the necessary thinking and braking time from the vehicle in front. I reckon 80% of drivers flagrantly disregard the 2 sec rule and literally drive a cars length or less tailgating. It's always possible the car in front has defective brake lights. That is why the safe driving guidance is to give yourself space to react to the unexpected.
> 
> It has nothing to do whether it's an EV, torquey V twin bike or any other vehicle.
> 
> ...



Never said anything about not being able to perceive distance or tailgating , I’m thinking about driving on a fast A road/Motorway, I’ll put it simply, you are following a vehicle at a safe distance, something occurs in front of that vehicle that leads to traffic slowing quickly, the vehicle in front of you has inoperative brake lights, you get the oh shoot moment and have to brake very hard due to a lack of brake lights, on a rapidly decelerating vehicle, yet you have done nothing wrong, I also said that I suspect that the EV mentioned was either faulty, or had been messed about with in order to make it regen brake much harsher than it’s set to in the factory, the lack of brake lights making a bad situation worse, doesn’t matter what is propelling the thing, it’s another unsafe vehicle that’s not fit to be on the road until it’s repaired


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## cougie uk (4 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Never said anything about not being able to perceive distance or tailgating , I’m thinking about driving on a fast A road/Motorway, I’ll put it simply, you are following a vehicle at a safe distance, something occurs in front of that vehicle that leads to traffic slowing quickly, the vehicle in front of you has inoperative brake lights, you get the oh shoot moment and have to brake very hard due to a lack of brake lights, on a rapidly decelerating vehicle, yet you have done nothing wrong, I also said that I suspect that the EV mentioned was either faulty, or had been messed about with in order to make it regen brake much harsher than it’s set to in the factory, the lack of brake lights making a bad situation worse, doesn’t matter what is propelling the thing, it’s another unsafe vehicle that’s not fit to be on the road until it’s repaired



Surely you can see when something is getting closer to you ? Bikes don't have brake lights but people are able to ride in a bunch safely?

It's definitely not safe to be that closeto the car in front to have to rely on brake lights.


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## gzoom (5 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> I also said that I suspect that the EV mentioned was either faulty, or had been messed about with in order to make it regen brake much harsher than it’s set to in the factory



Why?? You cannot just 'mess' with the regen settings interms of changing when the brake lights come on, as already stated its related to deceleration rates.

As for a fault, why would it be faulty? The brakes and lights are integral safety systems which will have multiple self checks.

I've done 75k miles in all kinds of EVs now, I've never once been rammed by any other car due to what you are describing. 

Following too closely the one of the most common causes of any accident, along with speeding.


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## CXRAndy (5 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> Following too closely the one of the most common causes of any accident, along with speeding



True 

Also believing its always someone else's fault for their poor driving


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## Alex321 (5 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Surely you can see when something is getting closer to you ? Bikes don't have brake lights but people are able to ride in a bunch safely?
> 
> It's definitely not safe to be that closeto the car in front to have to rely on brake lights.



He didn't say he has to rely on brake lights, he said he had to brake harder as a result of no brake lights.

Yes, you can see when something is getting closer, but it takes time to notice that when it has been a constant distance, then suddenly starts getting closer quickly with no indication. It will take a large fraction of a second longer to realise he is getting closer than it would to react to his brake lights.


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## Alex321 (5 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> Why?? You cannot just 'mess' with the regen settings interms of changing when the brake lights come on, as already stated its related to deceleration rates.
> 
> As for a fault, why would it be faulty? The brakes and lights are integral safety systems which will have multiple self checks.


Every car can have faults. ICE cars sometimes have faulty brake lights, why should Evs be any different?


gzoom said:


> I've done 75k miles in all kinds of EVs now, I've never once been rammed by any other car due to what you are describing.



Nor have I ever been rammed from behind due to faulty brake lights on my car, having driven MANY different cars over what must be over a million miles by now. I have been. Hit from behind a few times, but not due to faulty lights.

You aren't often going to get one with faulty brake lights, but it does happen.


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## DRM (5 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> Why?? You cannot just 'mess' with the regen settings interms of changing when the brake lights come on, as already stated its related to deceleration rates.
> 
> As for a fault, why would it be faulty? The brakes and lights are integral safety systems which will have multiple self checks.
> 
> ...



I wish you’d read correctly what I had written, I didn’t say anything at all about tailgating, following too close or speeding, what I did say say was I suspect the brake lights had failed, therefore the first clue about it slowing has been removed, it then means you have less time to react to the car braking, increasing the required braking distance, it doesn’t matter how many warnings come up on the dash, people will still drive the bl**dy thing without giving two hoots about the people following them, as for altering the parameters of the cars software, I’d put money on it somebody has worked out how to get into the software and start altering parameter settings of a Tesla, I know of someone who has done just that on a Prius.


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## DRM (5 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Every car can have faults. ICE cars sometimes have faulty brake lights, why should Evs be any different?
> 
> 
> Nor have I ever been rammed from behind due to faulty brake lights on my car, having driven MANY different cars over what must be over a million miles by now. I have been. Hit from behind a few times, but not due to faulty lights.
> ...



Thanks, I thought it was only me that thought any car ever made could go faulty at some point in its life


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## FishFright (5 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> Why?? You cannot just 'mess' with the regen settings interms of changing when the brake lights come on, as already stated its related to deceleration rates.
> 
> As for a fault, why would it be faulty? The brakes and lights are integral safety systems which will have multiple self checks.
> 
> ...



I think many of these stories are what one could charitably call apocryphal.


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## gzoom (6 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> I’d put money on it somebody has worked out how to get into the software and start altering parameter settings of a Tesla, I know of someone who has done just that on a Prius.



So you are suggesting the Tesla driver is somekind of master hackers, and decided to disable the link between regen and brake lights......Why would they do this even if they could? Or is it a case of the RangRover driver just tailgating too closely. 

In my experience, the simplier answer is usually the truth.


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## icowden (6 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Thanks, I thought it was only me that thought any car ever made could go faulty at some point in its life



It's possible, just unlikely. Tesla is the car *most* likely to activate brake lights when regen braking kicks in. At higher speeds the brake lights will flash briefly rather than coming on steadily so the car behind doesn't slam on the brakes. If the car is maxed out and regenerative braking doesn't need to kick in, but the car slows due to inertia then the brake lights won't come on.

Interestingly other EVs have different results depending on the level of regenerative braking that has been set up. lower levels won't trigger the brake light.


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## vickster (6 Jul 2022)

good grief


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## cougie uk (6 Jul 2022)

Has Jordan gone electric ?


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## Phaeton (6 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> good grief



It even looks angry


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## icowden (6 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> good grief



And someone paid extra for that at a chop shop.


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

An internet pop up today says Alfa's next all electric car (due by 2026) will have a range of close to 500 mile. Obviously as Alfa is part of the group that owns Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall etc one would think this would apply to all the makes.

Once the range does hit circa 500 miles that is when electric cars would become an option for me.


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> An internet pop up today says Alfa's next all electric car (due by 2026) will have a range of close to 500 mile. Obviously as Alfa is part of the group that owns Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall etc one would think this would apply to all the makes.
> 
> Once the range does hit circa 500 miles that is when electric cars would become an option for me.



The thought of Alpha Romeo & batteries is just a frightening thought with their history of electrics


----------



## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> An internet pop up today says Alfa's next all electric car (due by 2026) will have a range of close to 500 mile. Obviously as Alfa is part of the group that owns Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall etc one would think this would apply to all the makes.
> 
> Once the range does hit circa 500 miles that is when electric cars would become an option for me.



It's not the same as petrol though. How often would you drive 400 miles in one stretch ?

The rest of the time you've paid for that battery and lugging it round with you.


----------



## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> An internet pop up today says Alfa's next all electric car (due by 2026) will have a range of close to 500 mile. Obviously as Alfa is part of the group that owns Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall etc one would think this would apply to all the makes.
> 
> Once the range does hit circa 500 miles that is when electric cars would become an option for me.



Its clickbait headline numbers. No way will it have 500 mile range. 

Why do you need a vehicle that can have that much range? 

Its not safe or clever to do more than a couple of hours driving non stop. 

The best average speed you are likely to attain in the UK door to door is around 55-60mph. So 120miles is plenty then have comfort/drink stop. Recharge at that point


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## icowden (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Why do you need a vehicle that can have that much range?


100% this.

The reason we have cars with large petrol tanks and long range is because we have to drive somewhere to fill them up. It's about the convenience of not having to do that too often. With EVs you fill up at home 99% of the time. You don't need to carry all that extra capacity around.

Average car journey length in the UK is 9 miles (if you have passengers). Even assuming that that is going somewhere, and you have to go back again, that's 18 miles before you can recharge. Of course, occasionally we all make longer journeys but most people take rest breaks (and everyone should be taking rest breaks!!)


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> 100% this.
> 
> The reason we have cars with large petrol tanks and long range is because we have to drive somewhere to fill them up. It's about the convenience of not having to do that too often. With EVs you fill up at home 99% of the time. You don't need to carry all that extra capacity around.
> 
> Average car journey length in the UK is 9 miles (if you have passengers). Even assuming that that is going somewhere, and you have to go back again, that's 18 miles before you can recharge. Of course, occasionally we all make longer journeys but most people take rest breaks (and everyone should be taking rest breaks!!)



Some of us don't do average journeys!


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> The reason we have cars with large petrol tanks and long range is because we have to drive somewhere to fill them up.



Do you honestly believe that?

Sorry just to add, isn't that the same as only charging your battery up to 20%?


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## Alex321 (7 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> 100% this.
> 
> The reason we have cars with large petrol tanks and long range is because we have to drive somewhere to fill them up. It's about the convenience of not having to do that too often. With EVs you fill up at home 99% of the time. You don't need to carry all that extra capacity around.
> 
> Average car journey length in the UK is 9 miles (if you have passengers). Even assuming that that is going somewhere, and you have to go back again, that's 18 miles before you can recharge. Of course, occasionally we all make longer journeys but most people take rest breaks (and everyone should be taking rest breaks!!)



We do, but we don't usually expect to refuel when taking such a break (particularly when a long journey is mostly on motorways with ridiculous fuel prices in services).

It will require sufficient FAST charging facilities in all motorway services (and other common stopping places) to really make it practical to only have a range of 2-3 hours driving. 

There will need to be enough for everybody who is stopping there to be able to plug in at the same time, and they will need to be able to charge enough for another 2-3 hours driving in about 20 minutes.


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Evs require a different mindset to combustion engines.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> We do, but we don't usually expect to refuel when taking such a break (particularly when a long journey is mostly on motorways with ridiculous fuel prices in services). *Its no inconvenience to plug in before eating/comfort break *
> 
> It will require sufficient FAST charging facilities in all motorway services (and other common stopping places) to really make it practical to only have a range of 2-3 hours driving. *Like in the very early days of ICE, they were few places to refuel, but infrastructure has grown. Personally I've never needed to do an emergency electric top up on long journeys. I have over 100K miles of driving EV's over 4 years*
> 
> There will need to be enough for everybody who is stopping there to be able to plug in at the same time, and they will need to be able to charge enough for another 2-3 hours driving in about 20 minutes. *If you arrive at a supercharger(Tesla) with 20% in the battery, in 25mins you will be back up to 80-85% of SOC. Good enough for another 150miles easily*



in bold


----------



## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

At present once a week I drive down to see my mother who is now in a care home.

Journey distance is 140 miles each way, just shy of three hours each way.

I am by no means an expert but I don't believe there is a mass market electric car (at the moment) that could do this journey without me having to stop and recharge adding time to my journey and consequently curtailing the time I spend with my mother. (There are no charging facilities at the care home)

I did last week have to dash into a service station en route for a call of nature and there sat playing on his phone idling away time was an EV owner waiting for one of the three points to become available. So not only does this chap have to sit there bored to tears whilst his car charges he has to do it waiting for one to become free.

As I said previously we don't all do "average journeys" people travel all over the country for work etc.

Until these vehicles have a decent range and a decent infrastructure is put in place then they are not for me.

However I accept that for people who only go to the local shops etc then they are viable.


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## icowden (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Some of us don't do average journeys!


True, but policy and planning tends to focus on average usage not on outliers. 

That said, as EV take up increases heavy investment is being made in battery tech - it's the new gold rush. Who can produce the best and most cost effective battery. Tesla introduced the 4680 battery which increased range by over 50% and halved costs. That's going to keep happening. If you plot the below in Excel and draw out a linear trend, you get to 500 miles median range by 2030. However in 2016 median range jumped hugely but remained pretty static until 2019 when it started increasing again. SO we may well get there sooner.

_From the Energy.gov website:_


*Model Year**Median Range**Maximum Range*2011689420127626520138226520148426520159027020162183152017194335201821333520192393702020259402


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## icowden (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Journey distance is 140 miles each way, just shy of three hours each way.
> I am by no means an expert but I don't believe there is a mass market electric car (at the moment) that could do this journey without me having to stop and recharge adding time to my journey and consequently curtailing the time I spend with my mother. (There are no charging facilities at the care home)


Tesla Model 3 long range will do this.


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Tesla Model 3 long range will do this.



From £56,500, it's hardly mass market, i.e. affordable for the masses!


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## CharlesF (7 Jul 2022)

[QUOTE="Chislenko, post: 6765202, member: 109999"

there sat playing on his phone idling away time was an EV owner waiting for one of the three points to become available. 

[/QUOTE]

This highlights the need for plentiful, working charging points spread evenly throughout the country, rather than 500 mile range in an EV,


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## Alex321 (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> in bold



At some point that may become true. When the rest of what I said does.


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## vickster (7 Jul 2022)

CharlesF said:


> [QUOTE="Chislenko, post: 6765202, member: 109999"
> 
> there sat playing on his phone idling away time was an EV owner waiting for one of the three points to become available.



This highlights the need for plentiful, working charging points spread evenly throughout the country, rather than 500 mile range in an EV,
[/QUOTE]

They need to be quick charging and affordable too


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I am by no means an expert but I don't believe there is a mass market electric car (at the moment) that could do this journey without me having to stop and recharge adding time to my journey and consequently curtailing the time I spend with my mother. (There are no charging facilities at the care home)



There is, there is in fact a plethora vehicles that could do the 140 round trip on less than 75% charge, however you are going to probably have to spend North of £60K to get one, whereas you could pick up an ICE for less than £600 which would also do it.

Just another case of the haves & have nots


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> There is, there is in fact a plethora vehicles that could do the 140 round trip on less than 75% charge, however you are going to probably have to spend North of £60K to get one, whereas you could pick up an ICE for less than £600 which would also do it.
> 
> Just another case of the haves & have nots



140 Each Way!


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> 140 Each Way!


Apologies, there are still a couple but increase the budget to over £100K


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Another option could be to charge on someone else's drive near the care home. 
That's the secret. Charge when the car's not being used.


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Another option could be to charge on someone else's drive near the care home.
> That's the secret. Charge when the car's not being used.



Is that a thing, is there an App for it, what's the legal standing of selling your electricity to somebody else? I suppose if you have an off grid PV system, but what if you are on the grid?


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## Alex321 (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Is that a thing, is there an App for it, what's the legal standing of selling your electricity to somebody else? I suppose if you have an off grid PV system, but what if you are on the grid?



I can't see there being any issue with the legality of selling on your electricity - unless your contract forbids it. Every charging station will be doing that.


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## icowden (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> From £56,500, it's hardly mass market, i.e. affordable for the masses!



and yet...

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/0...d-best-selling-car-of-any-kind-in-uk-in-2021/


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> 140 Each Way!



There are probably 10 Models capable of return trip of 140 each way without charging. But who drives 140miles and then turns around almost instantly. Surely if you drive 140 you're going to be stopping for several hours before returning. Charge whilst parked up even with a 3 pin plug you would get 6 miles per hour charge. A dedicated 7kW charger would give 25-30miles per hour charge rate


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Is that a thing, is there an App for it, what's the legal standing of selling your electricity to somebody else? I suppose if you have an off grid PV system, but what if you are on the grid?



You can charge at low rates. You can do what you like with your electric. When staying with relatives who don't have an EV charging. I plug in on an extension lead. Give them £15 to fully charge my car. But we don't do visits less than a day


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There are probably 10 Models capable of return trip of 140 each way without charging. But who drives 140miles and then turns around almost instantly. Surely if you drive 140 you're going to be stopping for several hours before returning. Charge whilst parked up even with a 3 pin plug you would get 6 miles per hour charge. A dedicated 7kW charger would give 25-30miles per hour charge rate



I missed it was 140 each way, but I did read that he was visiting his mother in a care home where there are no charging facilities, but I used to regularly drive 100-150 miles, put what I bought in the car & drive home, never stopped in either direction.


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Is that a thing, is there an App for it, what's the legal standing of selling your electricity to somebody else? I suppose if you have an off grid PV system, but what if you are on the grid?



Zap Map will find charging places for you. People also rent out their drives as parking spaces - it's similar to that.
I can't see any electricity company having an issue with you selling a few Kw on.


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There are probably 10 Models capable of return trip of 140 each way without charging. But who drives 140miles and then turns around almost instantly. Surely if you drive 140 you're going to be stopping for several hours before returning. Charge whilst parked up even with a 3 pin plug you would get 6 miles per hour charge. A dedicated 7kW charger would give 25-30miles per hour charge rate



As I stated in my original post there are no charging facilities at the care home.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> They need to be quick charging and affordable too



Why affordable, using superchargers has now reached the pricing of petrol. Charging at home on low tariffs is where EVs crush petrol cars for cost.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> As I stated in my original post there are no charging facilities at the care home.



Tell me the general location and I will find a charger


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Zap Map will find charging places for you. People also rent out their drives as parking spaces - it's similar to that.
> I can't see any electricity company having an issue with you selling a few Kw on.



Wasn't arguing I was asking as it's not something I'd heard of, I wonder if it's an option, I have a drive I could put a charge point on, (but which one) then add myself to the App I presume.


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Tell me the general location and I will find a charger



But then how does he get from the charger to the home?


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But then how does he get from the charger to the home?



Legs ? Brompton ? Taxi ? Do we have to spoonfeed you here ?


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## vickster (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Why affordable, using superchargers has now reached the pricing of petrol. Charging at home on low tariffs is where EVs crush petrol cars for cost.



Because EVs cost much more in the first place and for many who don’t have 50-100k sat in the bank requires a lease, finance package or loan with significant monthly repayment 
(There’s no affordable used, let’s say sub 10k, market currently. The most I have ever spent on a car is 12k and don’t intend to ever spend much more).

Clearly not a concern for you as you’re evidently wealthy but it is for the majority 

Does a supercharger complete from empty in less than 10 minutes like a petrol pump out of interest?


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Tell me the general location and I will find a charger



The general location is in the middle of the countryside, unless you want me to park up in town and walk a few miles, or is the extra exercise another "benefit" of an electric car!


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Legs ? Brompton ? Taxi ? Do we have to spoonfeed you here ?





cougie uk said:


> Legs ? Brompton ? Taxi ? Do we have to spoonfeed you here ?



Not an option with my wife who struggles to walk. Unless of course we use the taxi option which would probably add a further £30 to the cost of the trip.

I really am not seeing the "advantages" here.


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

Looks like somebody has stole your idea 57 Colsterdale is a private house, I wonder if they know they are on this map


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Legs ? Brompton ? Taxi ? Do we have to spoonfeed you here ?



I appreciate you are a convert so the insults are not required, you also must have the disposable income to purchase or guidable enough to PCP, I am not in the position, nor I suspect is the majority of the population. (no facts total guesswork before you ask)


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Not an option with my wife who struggles to walk. Unless of course we use the taxi option which would probably add a further £30 to the cost of the trip.
> 
> I really am not seeing the "advantages" here.



Well there is the Global Warming aspect and not polluting the places we drive through ? Lets face it - we have been lucky to have almost zero restrictions on our transport requirements for many decades. A 280 mile journey is not going to be cheap in the future.


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## Alex321 (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There are probably 10 Models capable of return trip of 140 each way without charging. But who drives 140miles and then turns around almost instantly. Surely if you drive 140 you're going to be stopping for several hours before returning. Charge whilst parked up even with a 3 pin plug you would get 6 miles per hour charge. A dedicated 7kW charger would give 25-30miles per hour charge rate



He'd already stated that there are no charging facilities at his destination (a care home).


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Well there is the Global Warming aspect and not polluting the places we drive through ? Lets face it - we have been lucky to have almost zero restrictions on our transport requirements for many decades. A 280 mile journey is not going to be cheap in the future.


We're your proof that your 'new' EV is going to do less damage to the environment over it's lifespan then my 15 year old diesel, the production of your vehicle caused far more then mine did.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> We're your proof that your 'new' EV is going to do less damage to the environment over it's lifespan then my 15 year old diesel, the production of your vehicle caused far more then mine did.



But your vehicle is pumping billions of particulates into the atmosphere when ever you drive


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## All uphill (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> An internet pop up today says Alfa's next all electric car (due by 2026) will have a range of close to 500 mile. Obviously as Alfa is part of the group that owns Fiat, Peugeot, Vauxhall etc one would think this would apply to all the makes.
> 
> Once the range does hit circa 500 miles that is when electric cars would become an option for me.



A range of 500m between charges or breakdowns?


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> But your vehicle is pumping billions of particulates into the atmosphere when ever you drive



So did the machines & the boats that dragged the precious metals in your batteries twice around the world before you got it


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## vickster (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So did the machines & the boats that dragged the precious metals in your batteries twice around the world before you got it



Ah but that wasn’t in ‘Middle England’ affecting the locals so it doesn’t count


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So did the machines & the boats that dragged the precious metals in your batteries twice around the world before you got it



Well let's all not bother trying to improve the atmosphere, nature, wildlife. Hell it might even benefit the odd human


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Jul 2022)

Life cycle analysis clearly shows that the overall impact of EVs is substantially lower than ICE cars.

I've previously posted links; perhaps those who are claiming otherwise could substantiate their position?


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Well let's all not bother trying to improve the atmosphere, nature, wildlife. Hell it might even benefit the odd human


i would love to & try where I can, I only drive if I have to, but I think you are under some illusion that because you are driving an EV that you are doing less damage that I. When asked a question about the damage your vehicle has done before ownership you avoid answering as it's not convenient.


roubaixtuesday said:


> Life cycle analysis clearly shows that the overall impact of EVs is substantially lower than ICE cars.
> 
> I've previously posted links; perhaps those who are claiming otherwise could substantiate their position?


Post them again as I've not seen them, so far I have not seen any evidence (not marketing) that an apple EV over it's life time will be better than an apple ICE. Seen a couple of marketing apple EV to an orange ICE after production which of course was skewed highly in EV favour.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> i would love to & try where I can, I only drive if I have to, but I think you are under some illusion that because you are driving an EV that you are doing less damage that I. When asked a question about the damage your vehicle has done before ownership you avoid answering as it's not convenient.
> 
> Post them again as I've not seen them, so far I have not seen any evidence (not marketing) that an apple EV over it's life time will be better than an apple ICE. Seen a couple of marketing apple EV to an orange ICE after production which of course was skewed highly in EV favour.



So, you don't have any evidence for your opinions. Interesting. I'll do a search of my own posts to find the links. Perhaps read them.


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So did the machines & the boats that dragged the precious metals in your batteries twice around the world before you got it



And every time you fill up god knows how many tankers and boats have sailed and driven thousands of miles to deliver your petrol. Plus they use lithium in the refining of it. 
Whereas I'm on a renewables tariff - I'm happy to pay a bit more for clean energy.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Jul 2022)

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> And every time you fill up god knows how many tankers and boats have sailed and driven thousands of miles to deliver your petrol. Plus they use lithium in the refining of it.
> Whereas I'm on a renewables tariff - I'm happy to pay a bit more for clean energy.


You seem to be very defensive, I have no issue with you using your EV if you are in a position to use one, but please don't preach to us who are not in your position, as I said earlier if you have the disposable income or gullible enough to go PCP then good luck to you. Others do not have that option, however you still haven't address the total life of the vehicle & the environmental impact it has.


roubaixtuesday said:


> https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change/


That's great it talks about emmisions however it fails to reflect on the total life of the vehicle & the environmental impact it has.

But they at least have the decency to admit.


Comparisons between electric vehicles and conventional vehicles are complex. They depend on the size of the vehicles, the accuracy of the fuel-economy estimates used, how electricity emissions are calculated, what driving patterns are assumed, and even the weather in regions where the vehicles are used. There is no single estimate that applies everywhere.
But the question is also who are the car manufacturers doing this for you & the environment or their profit margin, I'm an old cynic but I know the answer to that one.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You seem to be very defensive, I have no issue with you using your EV if you are in a position to use one, but please don't preach to us who are not in your position, as I said earlier if you have the disposable income or gullible enough to go PCP then good luck to you. Others do not have that option, however you still haven't address the total life of the vehicle & the environmental impact it has.
> 
> That's great it talks about emmisions however it fails to reflect on the total life of the vehicle & the environmental impact it has.
> 
> ...



Your reply is laced with conspiratorial thinking and devoid of facts. 

You have strong opinions on the subject. 

Back then up with facts, or others will see them as mere prejudice.


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Your reply is laced with conspiratorial thinking and devoid of facts.
> 
> You have strong opinions on the subject.
> 
> Back then up with facts, or others will see them as mere prejudice.



LIGF what others think of my opinions, but at least I am open minded, but I do believe in it's current form EV is not the answer, if anything it is a distraction, it ticks the boxes for a few in middle England, but they will not solve the real world wide problem, EV drivers are the deckchair arrangers on the Titanic.


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## classic33 (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Another option could be to charge on someone else's drive near the care home.
> That's the secret.* Charge when the car's not being used.*


Can any of them be plugged into a charging point and be driven (used) whilst charging?


----------



## Gillstay (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> LIGF what others think of my opinions, but at least I am open minded, but I do believe in it's current form EV is not the answer, if anything it is a distraction, it ticks the boxes for a few in middle England, but they will not solve the real world wide problem, EV drivers are the deckchair arrangers on the Titanic.



Deckchair arrangers would be the end of the line as the ship sunk but hoefully EV's are a staging post to where ever we end up next. We dont know what may come next but Ev's have merit as they are a step forward. The regular car of today is going backward as they get bigger and heavier. The mpg figures and no longer improving, if anything the faux SUV fad is making matters worse.


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## vickster (7 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Can any of them be plugged into a charging point and be driven (used) whilst charging?



Only with a really really long cable 

There don't appear to be cars with a dynamo type arrangement (ie charge while moving). Plug in hybrids presumably can use petrol if the battery is flat?


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Can any of them be plugged into a charging point and be driven (used) whilst charging?



It's the mindset again. People are used to filling up when you're out. With the EV 99.9% of my journeys will be with no stops as I've charged at home. 

It's only an electric socket you need to charge. And electric is a fraction of petrol or diesel cost.


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jul 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Deckchair arrangers would be the end of the line as the ship sunk but hoefully EV's are a staging post to where ever we end up next. We dont know what may come next but Ev's have merit as they are a step forward. *The regular car of today is going backward* as they get bigger and heavier. The mpg figures and no longer improving, if anything the faux SUV fad is making matters worse.



The irony of that is that ICE emissions would have reduced considerably by now if they hadn't announced the future ban. The minute they did, the manufacturers understandably stopped the roll out of pending improvement and shelved research into further improvements.

Emissions are higher now than they would have been had the ban not been announced, and it will take decades for current ice cars to drop out of the market, so we end up with the emissions associated with the production, use of EV's, on top of the increases from the existing fleet.

There isn't enough 'green' (it's not) energy to fuel the industries that have signed up for green fuel, never mind the EV's to come.

Oh, and it's all socially divisive, as it's only an option for the wealthy, who end up paying less fuel tax and VED, so the poor fund the roads that they can't afford to use.


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The irony of that is that ICE emissions would have reduced considerably by now if they hadn't announced the future ban. The minute they did, the manufacturers understandably stopped the roll out of pending improvement and shelved research into further improvements.
> 
> Emissions are higher now than they would have been had the ban not been announced, and it will take decades for current ice cars to drop out of the market, so we end up with the emissions associated with the production, use of EV's, on top of the increases from the existing fleet.
> 
> There isn't enough 'green' (it's not) energy to fuel the industries that have signed up for green fuel, never mind the EV's to come.



I doubt that is true.
ICE cars have been around for 100 years - but somehow there's a magic improvement thats been cancelled by the announcement of EVs ?
Who told you that ? 

And as the sales of EVs increase - what would have been an ICE car with magically lower emissions - well an increasing proportion of those are now EVs with zero emissions.


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I doubt that is true.
> ICE cars have been around for 100 years - but somehow there's a magic improvement thats been cancelled by the announcement of EVs ?
> *Who told you that ?*
> 
> And as the sales of EVs increase - what would have been an ICE car with magically lower emissions - well an increasing proportion of those are now EVs with zero emissions.



Several car manufacturers and other experts in the field. EV's do not have zero emissions, far from it.


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## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Several car manufacturers and other experts in the field. EV's do not have zero emissions, far from it.



EV's do have zero emissions - certainly at the vehicle level. I know some people even manage to run their EV's off of their own solar panels - so it's clearly the future. Despute what unnamed car manufacturers and 'other experts' in the field told you down the pub.


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's the mindset again. People are used to filling up when you're out. With the EV 99.9% of my journeys will be with no stops as I've charged at home.



As I have said before cougie, it is horses for courses and depends on personal circumstances. I think we all understand that it suits your life but may not suit others.

In my last year at work I did 40k miles. Under no circumstances could I have done that in an EV, some of my trips just to my first port of call would have drained the battery.

Obviously I don't know your circumstances, you may be very fortunate and have a short commute. I would have loved to commute by bike but my nearest branch was 52 miles each way and my furthest 163 miles each way.

Then of course there is the issue of company cars. 

Do any companies have a system yet for reimbursing employees for the electric to charge at home, I don't know, perhaps in the public sector but I can't see it in many owner driver companies.

Then as I have mentioned before, availability of at home charging, is there off road parking, how many occupants of the house own a car and want to get on the drive and charge etc.

Obviously you are a convert and it would appear have the circumstances to be able to make the switch, not everybody is in such a position so I think a bit of give and take from both sides is called for.

I don't hate EV's they are just not practical for me at present.


----------



## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> un their EV's off of their own solar panels



This will be me soon. Application has gone in for 80kW array ☀️☀️


----------



## roubaixtuesday (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> but at least I am open minded



On the contrary, you've made your mind up, despite, by your own account, not knowing any of the facts


----------



## cougie uk (7 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> As I have said before cougie, it is horses for courses and depends on personal circumstances. I think we all understand that it suits your life but may not suit others.
> 
> In my last year at work I did 40k miles. Under no circumstances could I have done that in an EV, some of my trips just to my first port of call would have drained the battery.
> 
> ...



40k a year is a huge distance - you're making up the average for me not driving to work at all for the last 30 odd years. 
Things will change though - your job wouldn't have existed without the motor car - it'd be good if the future involved less travel for everyone - I think the pandemic already shows that people don't always need to be in an office to work. 

EVs will get a bit more range and a bit more affordable but a 40k year in any vehicle can't be easy surely ? 

As has been said - ICE cars will be around for a good few years yet.


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> *EV's do have zero emissions* - certainly at the vehicle level. I know some people even manage to run their EV's off of their own solar panels - so it's clearly the future. Despute what unnamed car manufacturers and 'other experts' in the field told you down the pub.




Nope. They don't, not even at the point of use. 

I very much doubt you'd meet any of the people I've spoken to, and certainly not in a pub, and they are experts in a variety of associated fields, which you, quite clearly, are not.


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## Chislenko (7 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> but a 40k year in any vehicle can't be easy surely ?



The main driver (pardon the pun) in me taking early retirement!


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## icowden (7 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Nope. They don't, not even at the point of use.


Go on then. What do they emit, and where do they emit it from? Does your mobile phone also emit greenhouse gasses? How about your TV? Your kettle?


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Go on then. What do they emit, and where do they emit it from? Does your mobile phone also emit greenhouse gasses? How about your TV? Your kettle?



Particulate for one. They also contribute to an increase in ground level ozone, due to the reduction on other gasses that normally react to reduce it. Both are more harmful than the emissions they replace. 

Indirectly, the list is much longer. They are not 'green'. 

The rest of your post is too ridiculous to answer.

I notice few have responded to the socially divisive aspect of the push to EV's, which leaves the wealthy contributing far less to the upkeep of the roads that the poor will be unable to afford to use. That money is going to have to be found from somewhere.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> They also contribute to an increase in ground level ozone


Based on the assumption that electric generated is from fossil fuelled power stations

However nearly 50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.


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## ClichéGuevara (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Based on the assumption that electric generated is from fossil fuelled power stations
> 
> However nearly 50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.



Nope. Not based on that at all. Based on the point I made in the reply.


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## mistyoptic (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> This will be me soon. Application has gone in for 80kW array ☀️☀️


Well, that’s lovely for you to:
1. Have the money for an 80kW array
2. To have the SPACE for an 80kW array
3. To have the money/employment/whatever to allow you to have a posh EV

There are many out there, including in this discussion, who, I suspect, are not as fortunate.

There is still also the fact that, if I spend a good chunk of my retirement fund on an EV that meets my needs, the powerful diesel, which I would trade in, will still be out there using fossil fuels and generating emissions and taking up road space. Not really a benefit to the environment then. Perhaps I’ll keep it.

Seems to me that there are some fortunate or wealthy evangelists on this thread who have little empathy with other motorists of more modest means


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## FishFright (7 Jul 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> Well, that’s lovely for you to:
> 1. Have the money for an 80kW array
> 2. To have the SPACE for an 80kW array
> 3. To have the money/employment/whatever to allow you to have a posh EV
> ...



Why not be happy that someone is doing something good for the earth and themselves ? No one is making you do anything like that.


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Based on the assumption that electric generated is from fossil fuelled power stations
> 
> However nearly 50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.


Which is a converts way of saying over 50% isn't


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> On the contrary, you've made your mind up, despite, by your own account, not knowing any of the facts



That's because they (the facts) aren't out there yet, even the article admits that, EV in it's current form is not the answer for the masses,


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Can any of them be plugged into a charging point and be driven (used) whilst charging?



I'm pretty sure they'll be a youtube video somewhere of somebody doing it


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## Phaeton (7 Jul 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Deckchair arrangers would be the end of the line as the ship sunk but hoefully EV's are a staging post to where ever we end up next. We dont know what may come next but Ev's have merit as they are a step forward. The regular car of today is going backward as they get bigger and heavier. The mpg figures and no longer improving, if anything the faux SUV fad is making matters worse.



Stop talking sense, you have no right to do that in the thread!


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## figbat (7 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Which is a converts way of saying over 50% isn't



100% of ICE cars are fossil-fueled.


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## roubaixtuesday (8 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> 100% of ICE cars are fossil-fueled.



And even if leccy is fossil fuel generated, EVs use much less because they're so much more efficient.


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## cougie uk (8 Jul 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> Well, that’s lovely for you to:
> 1. Have the money for an 80kW array
> 2. To have the SPACE for an 80kW array
> 3. To have the money/employment/whatever to allow you to have a posh EV
> ...



Having and running any car isn't cheap these days. But I did the sums and calculated that it was cheaper to buy and run an EV than a petrol car. And I hadn't even allowed for the huge increase in petrol price.


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## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Particulate for one. They also contribute to an increase in ground level ozone, due to the reduction on other gasses that normally react to reduce it. Both are more harmful than the emissions they replace.


Well lets get the ozone issue out of the way. EVs don't emit it. The ozone contribution is about the methods of creating the electricity that charge the car. Switch to greener electricity generation - less ozone. The secondary aspect is that nitrous oxides which are emitted from ICE cars have a suppressant effect on ground level ozone. By eliminating one greenhouse gas, it allows another greenhouse gas to be more prevalent. That isn't the fault of the cars.

Non exhaust particulate emissions are worse in EVs that's true but *all *cars produce them as all cars have tyres and brakes. Yes, EVs are heavier than ICE cars, but much of the research into this area is somewhat statistically driven and often overlooks that EVs use their brakes less. 

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www...particulate-pollution-myths-busted-rac-report

So in summary, EVs are much less polluting than ICE cars. The amount that they are better in terms of fuel is driven by your country's energy production system. They are also better than ICE cars when it comes to non-emission pollution such as particulates.


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## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> There is still also the fact that, if I spend a good chunk of my retirement fund on an EV that meets my needs, the powerful diesel, which I would trade in, will still be out there using fossil fuels and generating emissions and taking up road space. Not really a benefit to the environment then. Perhaps I’ll keep it.


True, but not for very long as Diesel will rapidly become unaffordable. It's getting close now.


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## Chislenko (8 Jul 2022)

My electric toothbrush is more polluting than my manual one which uses no energy 🙂


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## CXRAndy (8 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Having and running any car isn't cheap these days. But I did the sums and calculated that it was cheaper to buy and run an EV than a petrol car. And I hadn't even allowed for the huge increase in petrol price.



That was the surprising part, how much you could save in money using an EV. Then there is the fantastic part of zero tailpipe emissions, finally super smooth cars to drive.

I probably wouldn't have gone for solar in our previous home, but since we moved to a farm and are wanting to do lots of nature re-establishment to increase bees, insects, wildlife, flower diversity, bird conservation. We wanted to cut down on grid usage (given huge jump in energy costs) We put our life savings into it, to give something back for our children and hopefully grandchildren, so they can have an environment which is sustainable, with clean air and thriving nature .


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## tyred (8 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> My electric toothbrush is more polluting than my manual one which uses no energy 🙂



I'm thinking of converting my toothbrush to run one of those tiny two stroke engines🤔


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## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Well lets get the ozone issue out of the way. EVs don't emit it. The ozone contribution is about the methods of creating the electricity that charge the car. Switch to greener electricity generation - less ozone. The secondary aspect is that nitrous oxides which are emitted from ICE cars have a suppressant effect on ground level ozone. By eliminating one greenhouse gas, it allows another greenhouse gas to be more prevalent. That isn't the fault of the cars.
> 
> Non exhaust particulate emissions are worse in EVs that's true but *all *cars produce them as all cars have tyres and brakes. Yes, EVs are heavier than ICE cars, but much of the research into this area is somewhat statistically driven and often overlooks that EVs use their brakes less.
> 
> ...



You're still wrong about the issue with ozone, and the rest of your post misses quite a bit, which means your summary doesn't altogether hold up either, especially with the reduction in emission reduction research due to the pending ban on production and sale.


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## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That was the surprising part, how much you could save in money using an EV.


How much did you spend on your EV to get you into this position?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> 100% of ICE cars are fossil-fueled.



Fossil fuels have saved many millions of lives, and improved the lives of many millions more, as well as preventing the extinction of several species, and reducing the impact of extreme weather events.

Gathering the components for wind, solar and EV's is causing environmental damage and impacting heavily on communities in poorer areas of the world.

I actually support protecting the environment, but some of the arguments and 'solutions' proposed are grossly oversimplified, and risk simply changing one problem for another, while people feel good about doing it.

Few of those people feeling good have addressed the very real issue that the wealthy will save money by going along with it, at the expense of the poorer sections of society and the world at large.


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## Time Waster (8 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> And even if leccy is fossil fuel generated, EVs use much less because they're so much more efficient.


Something about that sounds wrong. The EV isn't efficient but the PS supplying energy through the electricity supply through burning fossil fuels is more efficient than ICE supplying the energy from fossil fuels directly. Significantly more efficient which counteracts losses in distribution and other losses. I'm not sure you can say EVs in themselves are more efficient just the energy supply is probably more efficient. 

I stand to be corrected, but I doubt very much the EVs are significantly more efficient in and of themselves.

I don't think anyone serious thinks EV s are the solution just like hybrids weren't. They're perhaps less obviously a stage on the journey to some than hybrids but they're just as much a step in the journey to something better that truly works for society and the environment.

My view is how long before the next step in that journey comes? I think it might be possible to skip EVs as they are now and get the next tech along if it comes in early enough.


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## Time Waster (8 Jul 2022)

I just think safe energy conversion without electricity storage will be better than battery storage systems like EVs.


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## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> I don't think anyone serious thinks EV s are the solution just like hybrids weren't. They're perhaps less obviously a stage on the journey to some than hybrids but they're just as much a step in the journey to something better that truly works for society and the environment.
> 
> My view is how long before the next step in that journey comes? I think it might be possible to skip EVs as they are now and get the next tech along if it comes in early enough.


What is your view on what that next step might be?

We aren't skipping the EV step unless whatever comes next is ready for mass usage within the next 10 years, and that is unlikely unless we already have a good idea what it will be.


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## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> I stand to be corrected, but I doubt very much the EVs are significantly more efficient in and of themselves.


The most fuel efficient combustion engines currently on the market are 40% efficient. So only 40% of what you put in can be converted to power to drive the car forward. The remaining 60% is heat and friction - that's why car engines are hot. 

In an EV 80% of the energy put in is converted to power. Minimal heat and friction. Obviously, detractors point out that if your electricity supply is from coal fired power stations then the "inefficiency" is just moved from the car to the electricity producer. If however you live somewhere like Norway that has almost 100% green energy, then you are way more efficient.

In the UK we are about 50% renewable. We need to do more and get rid of monsters like Drax that just pretend to be green. But if we do generate more power from solar, wind and hydro, things will only get better.


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## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> You're still wrong about the issue with ozone, and the rest of your post misses quite a bit, which means your summary doesn't altogether hold up either, especially with the reduction in emission reduction research due to the pending ban on production and sale.



Thanks for the detailed response rebutting what I have posted and citing studies an articles to support your argument.
You'll have to excuse me if at the moment I don't immediately take your side of the discussion as you don't seem to have one.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> How much did you spend on your EV to get you into this position?



I will use our Nissan Leaf as the example, being an average price EV. We paid £26k for it. The mileage covered and saving from cheap overnight electric compared to an equivalent petrol car, equated to buying the Leaf new for £9k. 

Now savings are still to be had, but less so due to electric price increases. However fossil fuel prices are at a all time high.

Get a leased EV, the money saved in fuel will offset the payments to near or equal petrol car.


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## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Get a leased EV,.


That has to be the worst advice given in over 100 pages, anybody who rents a car on PCP needs to examine their motives, why you would encourage anyone to throw money at an asset, only not to have any asset at the end of the term.

If EV works for yourself then that's good, it won't work for me purely & simply on a financial footing, I do not have the £30K to buy one


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## CXRAndy (8 Jul 2022)

This is on the presumption you were going to be changing your vehicle in the near future. Going from ICE to EV. 

The best option for the World is we all do away with vehicular transport and go and live in wattle and daub huts


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## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That has to be the worst advice given in over 100 pages, anybody who rents a car on PCP needs to examine their motives, why you would encourage anyone to throw money at an asset, only not to have any asset at the end of the term.


Simple. It's the motoring equivalent of renting vs buying. It's nice to be in the position to buy, but rental carries a lot of benefits too.


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## cougie uk (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That has to be the worst advice given in over 100 pages, anybody who rents a car on PCP needs to examine their motives, why you would encourage anyone to throw money at an asset, only not to have any asset at the end of the term.
> 
> If EV works for yourself then that's good, it won't work for me purely & simply on a financial footing, I do not have the £30K to buy one



Mine was 17k. Two years old. Saving at least £100 a month on fuel. Zero tax. Cheap services.


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## cougie uk (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> My view is how long before the next step in that journey comes? I think it might be possible to skip EVs as they are now and get the next tech along if it comes in early enough.



So to summarize your strategy - do nothing. Keep burning fossil fuels and increase the rate of climate change but cross your fingers and hope for some pixie dust idea to sort things out ?

Interesting.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jul 2022)

Those doing nothing or waiting for something different to an EV are going to be in for a big surprise. 

Surprise will be massive increase in using their ICE, emissions zones charging, excise duty loaded onto those delaying the adoption of EVs

Those waiting for something like hydrogen will be waiting 20-50 years.

EV is now the flavour of manufacturing for the foreseeable future.


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## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That has to be the worst advice given in over 100 pages, anybody who rents a car on PCP needs to examine their motives, why you would encourage anyone to throw money at an asset, only not to have any asset at the end of the term.


It is just rental as opposed to purchase. 

Some people actually prefer rental both for housing and for transport. Others don't, for either.



Phaeton said:


> If EV works for yourself then that's good, it won't work for me purely & simply on a financial footing, I do not have the £30K to buy one


Neither do I (though in theory I could just about). But when I'm next changing one of our cars (probably 2-3 years time), I fully expect to be able to get a decent 2nd hand one for more like £10K. And with a good big solar system, it will be cheap to run.


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## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I will use our Nissan Leaf as the example, being an average price EV. We paid £26k for it. The mileage covered and saving from cheap overnight electric compared to an equivalent petrol car, equated to buying the Leaf new for £9k.
> 
> Now savings are still to be had, but less so due to electric price increases. However fossil fuel prices are at a all time high.
> 
> Get a leased EV, the money saved in fuel will offset the payments to near or equal petrol car.



Got my Ford Ka a year ago and all up costs to buy and run for a year is about £4,400.

This year will just be running costs as I own it outright.

Leasing a EV Zoe is about £350 a month so after 2 years I am maybe £2500 richer that the Zoe owner.

The previous owner of the house had an EV and I have a charger on the drive and looked at getting an EV and would like one but at the moment I can't get owning an EV a lot cheaper than running my Ka.


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## FishFright (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> That has to be the worst advice given in over 100 pages, anybody who rents a car on PCP needs to examine their motives, why you would encourage anyone to throw money at an asset, only not to have any asset at the end of the term.
> 
> If EV works for yourself then that's good, it won't work for me purely & simply on a financial footing, I do not have the £30K to buy one



A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately.


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## Time Waster (8 Jul 2022)

@icowdeni I stand corrected. However you have got your data a bit out. 80% is for conversion of electrical power into useful work. It's about 60% overall efficiency of EVs, still still higher than ICE.

One thing I will point out is the sources of information on such matters out there. There's so much propaganda from all sides. I googled things and depending on what I typed I got various companies making money from EV industry making out that EVs are the greatest, exaggerating data like efficiency (using the wrong data like I mentioned above) then using the worst possible data on ICE. If you get companies benefiting from ICE sector arguing with data skewed the other way.

I think you need to consider the lowest efficiency for both not the highest. Choose the highest I think you're looking at the propaganda figures.

My big issue with EVs , the reason why I'm hanging off in the hope something else better comes along, is the cost and batteries. Batteries are not great things to be at the centre of your energy supply IMHO. They're a weakness. I think hydrogen cells are supposed to be a better longterm option but it's not there yet. Until it is EVs are the only option. They do need to drop in price and there needs to be a trust built in how the industry deals with batteries and its raw materials.


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## Milkfloat (8 Jul 2022)

I have leased cars for years and up until the chip shortage, leasing has been significantly cheaper for me than buying cars. Lease versus buy is a tricky decision for many.


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## vickster (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> This is on the presumption you were going to be changing your vehicle in the near future. Going from ICE to EV.
> 
> The best option for the World is we all do away with vehicular transport and go and live in wattle and daub huts



But he may not be in a position to choose between a 20k+ EV and a 20k+ ICE
There aren’t any sub 5k say EVs (or even sub 10k currently)


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## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> I think you need to consider the lowest efficiency for both not the highest. Choose the highest I think you're looking at the propaganda figures.


Fair point.


Time Waster said:


> My big issue with EVs , the reason why I'm hanging off in the hope something else better comes along, is the cost and batteries. Batteries are not great things to be at the centre of your energy supply IMHO. They're a weakness. I think hydrogen cells are supposed to be a better longterm option but it's not there yet.


Again I agree, but i think Hydrogen will end up as the Betamax of car fuels. Battery tech is going to improve quickly and get a lot greener as we find better ways of storing electrical energy. There is research in to solid state batteries, wireless charging, roads that can charge cars - all sorts is coming but the investment is in electric.


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## vickster (8 Jul 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> I have leased cars for years and up until the chip shortage, leasing has been significantly cheaper for me than buying cars. Lease versus buy is a tricky decision for many.



Being able to lease (without the benefit of a company car allowance for example) simply isn’t an option for many (how much are your monthly lease fees for example)?
Not everyone needs or wants a car that is less than 5 years old.
For me to spend say £400 a month on a lease would be utterly ridiculous for the miles I do! Yes I could afford it (although I’d rather pay it into my retirement fund). I spent 12k on a car 9 years ago, I’ve done 30k miles in that time. I plan to keep it for another 9 years at least!
I could also buy a 50k Tesla tomorrow but that would be even more ridiculous for dozens of reasons!


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## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately.



Here is a standard PCP quote from last year APR 4.9 % Not sure how you would make money ?


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## FishFright (8 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> Here is a standard PCP quote from last year APR 4.9 % Not sure how you would make money ?
> 
> View attachment 651954



Re-read what I said and google that instead.


----------



## Time Waster (8 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> So to summarize your strategy - do nothing. Keep burning fossil fuels and increase the rate of climate change but cross your fingers and hope for some pixie dust idea to sort things out ?
> 
> Interesting.



Hardly doing nothing. We work from home or use public transport / bikes for most of our journeys. We use more efficient food delivery than joining the masses in their steel boxes to travel 20 minutes and travel to the supermarket. We're insulating the house above recommended levels. Plus we've got solar panels that right now supplies all our daylight hours electricity needs and then some. 

As for pixie dust. Is that what you call hydrogen cells? Not quite there but it's got a similar distribution system as petrol and diesel. Its fill and go without a long wait. It's cleaner than battery powered EVs too. It's not ready but I think we're not far off. AIUI there's a few pilot scale hydrogen generating sites. Even read something about it being a bye product of some other industry. Also, it won't need a completely new distribution network like EVs and their charging site.


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## FishFright (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> Hardly doing nothing. We work from home or use public transport / bikes for most of our journeys. We use more efficient food delivery than joining the masses in their steel boxes to travel 20 minutes and travel to the supermarket. We're insulating the house above recommended levels. Plus we've got solar panels that right now supplies all our daylight hours electricity needs and then some.
> 
> As for pixie dust. Is that what you call hydrogen cells? Not quite there but it's got a similar distribution system as petrol and diesel. Its fill and go without a long wait. It's cleaner than battery powered EVs too. It's not ready but I think we're not far off. AIUI there's a few pilot scale hydrogen generating sites. Even read something about it being a bye product of some other industry. *Also, it won't need a completely new distribution network like EVs and their charging site.*



I t will and a load of new tech is needed to make it work as a mass market fuel. 

In addition cryogenic transport of hydrogen will cost a fortune compared to liquid fuels


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## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> Re-read what I said and google that instead.



This is what you said

_A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately_

To sell the car privately you have to own it and pay the final payment (so you have legal title over it). Not sure you would recoup the total cost on selling it?


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## Milzy (8 Jul 2022)

We should have modern nuclear power stations built. Germany are going back to coal because of the Russia problem. In the U.K. we have bio mass poo/wood pellets which cause as much pollution as coal fired & we import those from South America & other places far away. 
What’s the point of riding around in these cars which are indirectly powered by fossil fuels anyway? Talk about kicking the can down the road. Electric car owners are so smug but what about the children on 1 penny a day mining lithium in awful conditions for 12 hours plus a day?


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## SpokeyDokey (8 Jul 2022)

Tangential to the main debate in this thread but the amount of copper that needs to be mined, refined, transported and converted into a usable object of power production is hideous:

https://resourcecapitalfunds.com/a-lower-carbon-world-requires-more-copper/

I'm not anti-EV but the upstream downsides of some of the sources of electricity used to power EV's seem to be glossed over. Ditto onboard battery production requirements. 

I've yet to see a persuasive analysis, in one direction or the other, of all costs of EV's vs all costs of ICE vehicles over an average vehicle lifespan.


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## CXRAndy (8 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> We should have modern nuclear power stations built. Germany are going back to coal because of the Russia problem. In the U.K. we have bio mass poo/wood pellets which cause as much pollution as coal fired & we import those from South America & other places far away.
> What’s the point of riding around in these cars which are indirectly powered by fossil fuels anyway? Talk about kicking the can down the road. Electric car owners are so smug but what about the children on 1 penny a day mining lithium in awful conditions for 12 hours plus a day?



What device you have just posted on this forum will have lithium power. 

50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.

I suggest you go around your home total up all the lithium based energy devices. I bet you weren't concerned upto the point of objecting to the smug EV owners


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## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> What device you have just posted on this forum will have lithium power.
> 
> *50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.*
> 
> I suggest you go around your home total up all the lithium based energy devices. I bet you weren't concerned upto the point of objecting to the smug EV owners



That's debatable, as that requires back up from other sources, and it includes biomass, and is under 50%.


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## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> But he may not be in a position to choose between a 20k+ EV and a 20k+ ICE
> There aren’t any sub 5k say EVs (or even sub 10k currently)



That seems to pass a lot of people by. As I mentioned, those that can afford to buy such things end up paying less fuel and excise duty, which is liable to be recovered from the poorer people that are less able to afford to use the roads in the first place.

One consequence will be that older cars will be kept on the roads longer, and adding to emissions.

It's a 'solution' that sounds good, but changes one problem for others that are liable to be more immediate, wider reaching and worse.

Sadly, any comments not in praise of EV's, seem to result in comments questioning the understanding, and implications of not caring, or climate denial etc. They're just ways of putting fingers in ears and singing lah lah lah.


----------



## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> One consequence will be that older cars will be kept on the roads longer, and adding to emissions.


Not for long. They will likely be too expensive to run by 2040. 



ClichéGuevara said:


> Sadly, any comments not in praise of EV's, seem to result in comments questioning the understanding, and implications of not caring, or climate denial etc. They're just ways of putting fingers in ears and singing lah lah lah.


Not true. However many on hear will rebut the assertion that EVs are less good for the environment than ICE cars.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> 50% of UK energy is from renewable sources



Have they commissioned some more windmills today? A few hours ago it was almost 50% now we're hit the magic number


----------



## FishFright (8 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> This is what you said
> 
> _A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately_
> 
> To sell the car privately you have to own it and pay the final payment (so you have legal title over it). Not sure you would recoup the total cost on selling it?



What are you on about now ?


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Not true. However many on hear will rebut the assertion that EVs are less good for the environment than ICE cars.



Problem with that is nobody actually knows, even the scientist disagree as there are so many variables.


----------



## FishFright (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> Have they commissioned some more windmills today? A few hours ago it was almost 50% now we're hit the magic number



Or it got a bit more windy ... No magic needed.


----------



## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That's debatable, as that requires back up from other sources, and it includes biomass, and is under 50%.


At the time of typing. 28.7% of energy was fully renewable. 15.2% Nuclear, 2.5% other. That's 46.4% and doesn't include biomass.
Over the past week 33.6% has been renewable 18.9% nuclear - so 52.5%.
Over the past year 27.2% has been renewable, 17.6% nuclear - so 44.8%.

Yes we need to do more. We need to get rid of our dependency on gas by building more renewables and probably a nuke. Biomass doesn't contribute much (about 6% on a daily basis) and again should be got rid of.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Not for long. They will likely be too expensive to run by 2040.
> 
> 
> *Not true*. However many on hear will rebut the assertion that EVs are less good for the environment than ICE cars.



Erm, it is true, based on my own experience and watching the responses to others. 

As for your second point, have a look at the vehicles limping around in Countries with a high percentage of poverty and a lack of available vehicles. That aside, your glib response is saying that you don't care about the immediate issues of health or how it's liable to impact people for over 20 years.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> I have leased cars for years and up until the chip shortage, leasing has been significantly cheaper for me than buying cars. Lease versus buy is a tricky decision for many.



I can't see how this can be true, I paid £6,500 for our car 8 years ago, it's still worth £2,000 so over the 8 years it's cost me £4,000 if I'd leased at £400 per month, £4,800 a year, total cost £38,400 with no asset.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> Or it got a bit more windy ... No magic needed.



Ironically, one problem they're wrestling with is that if the climate estimates are correct, they'll get less of a return from wind and solar. Too much wind is a significant issue.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately.



But you've paid money for 3 years with no asset to show for it.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> I stand to be corrected, but I doubt very much the EVs are significantly more efficient in and of themselves



Yes, they are. The conversion of input energy to output motive power is far higher than ICE vehicles.


----------



## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That aside, your glib response is saying that you don't care about the immediate issues of health or how it's liable to impact people for over 20 years.


Um how?

https://www.blf.org.uk/your-stories...t diesel,caused from particulate matter alone.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords...7E58D2CF0B71/Children’SHealthVehicleEmissions

When you are on your bike would you rather be stuck in a slow moving line of:

Diesel fuelled cars and vans
Petrol fuelled cars and vans
Electric cars and vans
?

Personally I'd go for number 3. There are times when I have to use my inhaler if the traffic is bad. Not an issue if the traffic is made up of EVs. Plus you can hear the birds singing.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Yes, they are. The conversion of input energy to output motive power is far higher than ICE vehicles.



That depends on where you start and finish the energy chain.


----------



## Landsurfer (8 Jul 2022)

We have 3 diesel genset farms within 2 miles of our house .... barely a day goes by without the roar of them starting up ... as i cycle north of Doncaster the steam rising from the most heavily subsidised power plant on the planet, DRAX, is seen most days. 
The “Green “ power station in the heart of Rotherham has a constant stream of bulk carriers lined up with wood pellets from the Americas and Lithuania, shipped by ships burning bunker fuel and transported by diesel trucks ....
Green energy is the ultimate “Emperors new clothes” falsehood ....


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Um how?
> 
> https://www.blf.org.uk/your-stories/diesel-cars-are-damaging-our-lungs#:~:text=We now know that diesel,caused from particulate matter alone.
> 
> ...



Have a think about what I posted, and whether your response confirms my comment about people ignoring the immediate harm.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> We have 3 diesel genset farms within 2 miles of our house .... barely a day goes by without the roar of them starting up ... as i cycle north of Doncaster the steam rising from the most heavily subsidised power plant on the planet, DRAX, is seen most days.
> The “Green “ power station in the heart of Rotherham has a constant stream of bulk carriers lined up with wood pellets from the Americas and Lithuania, shipped by ships burning bunker fuel and transported by diesel trucks ....
> Green energy is the ultimate “Emperors new clothes” falsehood ....



It's even worse when you look at the damage done in acquiring those pellets, directly and indirectly. The land taken up for 'renewables' is impacting on farming availability and cost.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (8 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That depends on where you start and finish the energy chain.



No, however you define that, they're still more efficient.


----------



## figbat (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't see how this can be true, I paid £6,500 for our car 8 years ago, it's still worth £2,000 so over the 8 years it's cost me £4,000 if I'd leased at £400 per month, £4,800 a year, total cost £38,400 with no asset.



You wouldn’t be paying £400/month for 8 years for a car worth £6,500. They would look at the predicted depreciation, look at the contract length, divide it up, add a bit of interest and charge you that per month.


----------



## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But you've paid money for 3 years with no asset to show for it.


Yep. I spent 12 years renting accommodation before I could afford a house. Now that I have a house I have to spend a lot of time and money on maintenance. The plus side is that I am now putting money into an asset. The negative side is that I have to spend a lot of time looking after that asset.

I bought my car from new 10 years ago. I have spent a lot of money on maintenance, insurance, MOTs, services etc. I spent £6000 as a down payment and then spent 5 years paying for the remaining balance monthly and invested more than the £15,000 that the car cost due to interest etc. I now own the car. It is worth around £3,000. The upholstery is splitting, many of the plastic fittings have broken, it squeaks like nobodies business and can't handle speed bumps very well. It still works. 

My new car is leased (via my company) I no longer have to spend money on maintenance, insurance, MOTs, Services etc. So yes, I won't have an asset, but I can change that car in 4 years for a different new car. I just have to pay the lease costs.


----------



## cougie uk (8 Jul 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> We have 3 diesel genset farms within 2 miles of our house .... barely a day goes by without the roar of them starting up ... as i cycle north of Doncaster the steam rising from the most heavily subsidised power plant on the planet, DRAX, is seen most days.
> The “Green “ power station in the heart of Rotherham has a constant stream of bulk carriers lined up with wood pellets from the Americas and Lithuania, shipped by ships burning bunker fuel and transported by diesel trucks ....
> Green energy is the ultimate “Emperors new clothes” falsehood ....



Have you heard of solar and wind power ? I'd not be calling that plant green at all.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> No, however you define that, they're still more efficient.



There are many experts that would have a long debate with you on that. Me? I'm just happy to let you believe which version you like, as it's pretty meaningless for here.


----------



## cougie uk (8 Jul 2022)

Time Waster said:


> Hardly doing nothing. We work from home or use public transport / bikes for most of our journeys. We use more efficient food delivery than joining the masses in their steel boxes to travel 20 minutes and travel to the supermarket. We're insulating the house above recommended levels. Plus we've got solar panels that right now supplies all our daylight hours electricity needs and then some.
> 
> As for pixie dust. Is that what you call hydrogen cells? Not quite there but it's got a similar distribution system as petrol and diesel. Its fill and go without a long wait. It's cleaner than battery powered EVs too. It's not ready but I think we're not far off. AIUI there's a few pilot scale hydrogen generating sites. Even read something about it being a bye product of some other industry. Also, it won't need a completely new distribution network like EVs and their charging site.



Hydrogen might be a by product of a few processes but that's not enough to fill a nations cars. 

You use more electric to create the hydrogen to fill a car to drive it x miles than you could otherwise just charge the car with. 

And then you have to transport the hydrogen around the nation. 

EV - charge at any plug. Its so simple. Start the day off with your full tank.


----------



## Milzy (8 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> What device you have just posted on this forum will have lithium power.
> 
> 50% of UK energy is from renewable sources.
> 
> I suggest you go around your home total up all the lithium based energy devices. I bet you weren't concerned upto the point of objecting to the smug EV owners



See post below yours.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Hydrogen might be a by product of a few processes but that's not enough to fill a nations cars.
> 
> You use more electric to create the hydrogen to fill a car to drive it x miles than you could otherwise just charge the car with.
> 
> ...



1. They have invested millions into checking the existing gas pipeline, which prior to natural gas, carried towns gas, which is around 50% hydrogen.
2. They have invested heavily in on site production, using renewable energy produced at times it's not needed. That throws in massive issues on how 'efficiency' is calculated.


----------



## FishFright (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But you've paid money for 3 years with no asset to show for it.



Yes, because its a lease.


----------



## Landsurfer (8 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Have you heard of solar and wind power ? I'd not be calling that plant green at all.



Solar panels manufactured in China, India and Vietnam using Brown coal for power production. Just what is the carbon footprint of a single off shore wind turbine ??? 
Answers on a postcard please. ( post card must be manufactured from recycled products using power from hamsters in wheels and assembled by Rotherham Taxi Drivers ....).


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> assembled by Rotherham Taxi Drivers ....).


How will it be decontamintaed?


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> I bought my car from new 10 years ago. I have spent a lot of money on maintenance, insurance, MOTs, services etc. I spent £6000 as a down payment and then spent 5 years paying for the remaining balance monthly and invested more than the £15,000 that the car cost due to interest etc. I now own the car. It is worth around £3,000. The upholstery is splitting, many of the plastic fittings have broken, it squeaks like nobodies business and can't handle speed bumps very well. It still works.


You've been robbed or you drive with no regards to mechanical parts, not sure how you can say you spent a lot of money on maintenance yet all those things are wrong with it, our 15 year old car is still in good condition, even though it now has over 145K on it. There are no ripped seats, the aircon still works, the only fly in the ointment is somebody whilst in a car park has put something on the bonnet & then dragged it off, in our 8 years of ownership it's only had an alternator, 4 new tyres, a full set of discs & pads & the usual oil & filter changes. It still does 55mpg on a run & 48mpg around the village & town.

We have reduced our milage from 20K a year across 2 cars to under 6K in 1, but it still does not make either economic or environmental sense to go down the EV route, assuming we could afford it which we can't so in some ways the question is mute


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> When you are on your bike would you rather be stuck in a slow moving line of:
> 
> Diesel fuelled cars and vans
> Petrol fuelled cars and vans
> Electric cars and vans



It's a trick question isn't it? If I was on my bike I wouldn't be stuck in a line of traffic, that's one of the beauties of them, when was the last time you went out, maybe you should ditch your EV & use your bike once in a while.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You've been robbed or you drive with no regards to mechanical parts, not sure how you can say you spent a lot of money on maintenance yet all those things are wrong with it, our 15 year old car is still in good condition, even though it now has over 145K on it. There are no ripped seats, the aircon still works, the only fly in the ointment is somebody whilst in a car park has put something on the bonnet & then dragged it off, in our 8 years of ownership it's only had an alternator, 4 new tyres, a full set of discs & pads & the usual oil & filter changes. It still does 55mpg on a run & 48mpg around the village & town.
> 
> We have reduced our milage from 20K a year across 2 cars to under 6K in 1, but it still does not make either economic or environmental sense to go down the EV route, assuming we could afford it which we can't so in some ways the question is mute



And if you did change to EV, there's every likelihood someone else would then still be driving your current one, so a net increase overall.


----------



## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's a trick question isn't it? If I was on my bike I wouldn't be stuck in a line of traffic, that's one of the beauties of them, when was the last time you went out, maybe you should ditch your EV & use your bike once in a while.


Wow. You must have some amazing roads by you. 

Sadly I have some roads where there are loads of cars and lorries going past, and some that are narrow and have traffic lights so I have to sit behind vehicles - especially if with a group. Are you one of those suicidal cyclists that cuts between lorries and busses and runs red lights or do you just live somewhere really really quiet?


----------



## icowden (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> You've been robbed or you drive with no regards to mechanical parts, not sure how you can say you spent a lot of money on maintenance yet all those things are wrong with it,


Easy, I pay for the car to be serviced. The brake pads have been done several times, I have to pay for an annual MOT, for minor fixes, oil changes etc. Renault use cheap plastic and their upholstery isn't exactly long lasting. It's not a top of the range car. 

That's besides the point though. Your point was that I now have an asset. My point is that it isn't much of an asset and I'd rather be renting a car and having a new one every few years. Both my father in law and brother in law have replaced their cars twice in the period that I have owned mine. They now have hybrid petrol cars whilst mine guzzles diesel. Buying it was a poor choice in retrospect. PHP or lease would have been much better.


----------



## Chislenko (8 Jul 2022)

So my conclusions so far in this debate.

Those with an EV can't see the viewpoint of those without.

Those with an EV think we all live within easy commuting distance of our place of work.

Those with an EV have not considered that some people do not have off street parking and the ability to charge from home.

Those with an EV have not considered that some people may live on the tenth floor of a block of flats with the same problem as those in the last category.

Those with an EV (as an example was quoted earlier) think £56,500 is the price of a mass market car.

And to me this is the point that is being missed.

As @ClicheGuevara and others keep trying to point out at this point in time an EV is not for the poor, in pretty much the same way when cars were first made. Those able to afford them could and eventually as they became more affordable they came within the reach of the less well off.

However, this did not happen overnight.


----------



## cougie uk (8 Jul 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Solar panels manufactured in China, India and Vietnam using Brown coal for power production. Just what is the carbon footprint of a single off shore wind turbine ???
> Answers on a postcard please. ( post card must be manufactured from recycled products using power from hamsters in wheels and assembled by Rotherham Taxi Drivers ....).



Do you think all the petrol comes from deep wells at each BP station ?


----------



## SpokeyDokey (8 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Yep. I spent 12 years renting accommodation before I could afford a house. Now that I have a house I have to spend a lot of time and money on maintenance. The plus side is that I am now putting money into an asset. The negative side is that I have to spend a lot of time looking after that asset.
> 
> I bought my car from new 10 years ago. I have spent a lot of money on maintenance, insurance, MOTs, services etc. I spent £6000 as a down payment and then spent 5 years paying for the remaining balance monthly and invested more than the £15,000 that the car cost due to interest etc. I now own the car. It is worth around £3,000. The upholstery is splitting, many of the plastic fittings have broken, it squeaks like nobodies business and can't handle speed bumps very well. It still works.
> 
> My new car is leased (via my company) I no longer have to spend money on maintenance, insurance, MOTs, Services etc. So yes, I won't have an asset, but I can change that car in 4 years for a different new car. I just have to pay the lease costs.



A main residence generating costs is technically a liability not an asset.


----------



## Milzy (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't see how this can be true, I paid £6,500 for our car 8 years ago, it's still worth £2,000 so over the 8 years it's cost me £4,000 if I'd leased at £400 per month, £4,800 a year, total cost £38,400 with no asset.



Yeah but it was a cheap car to start with. We can 
lease 50 grand plus cars on our rubbish wages for a decent price with insurance & repairs all in. 
We could have a Polestar for £270 p/m and change it for a brand new car every 3 years. Our insurance alone would be that. 
It all depends on what you want.


----------



## vickster (8 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yeah but it was a cheap car to start with. We can
> lease 50 grand plus cars on our rubbish wages for a decent price with insurance & repairs all in.
> We could have a Polestar for £270 p/m and change it for a brand new car every 3 years. Our insurance alone would be that.
> It all depends on what you want.



You pay £270 a month for insurance…how bad is your driving history?!


----------



## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yeah but it was a cheap car to start with. We can
> lease 50 grand plus cars on our rubbish wages for a decent price with insurance & repairs all in.
> We could have a Polestar for £270 p/m and change it for a brand new car every 3 years. Our insurance alone would be that.
> It all depends on what you want.


 That's cheap to lease a Polestar? 

https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/polestar/2/hatchback


----------



## vickster (8 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> That's cheap to lease a Polestar?
> 
> https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/polestar/2/hatchback



Some sort of preferential rate through an employer?
(which clearly not everyone can access, just like a company car…)


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> This is what you said
> 
> _A well priced PCP is often not too far off the depreciation over the 3 years of the lease, especial if you tried to sell it privately_
> 
> To sell the car privately you have to own it and pay the final payment (so you have legal title over it). Not sure you would recoup the total cost on selling it?



What he was saying is that if you pay the deposit plus 3 years of PCP payments then hand the car back, the total cost to you isn't that far different from the total cost to you if you bought the car brand new then sold it after three years. The loss due to depreciation isn't much less than the cost of the PCP.

Of course, most of us wouldn't consider buying a car new, but that is a different point.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> You pay £270 a month for insurance…how bad is your driving history?!





midlife said:


> That's cheap to lease a Polestar?
> 
> https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/polestar/2/hatchback


Think the tongue was in the cheek


----------



## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> What he was saying is that if you pay the deposit plus 3 years of PCP payments then hand the car back, the total cost to you isn't that far different from the total cost to you if you bought the car brand new then sold it after three years. The loss due to depreciation isn't much less than the cost of the PCP.
> 
> Of course, most of us wouldn't consider buying a car new, but that is a different point.



Yep, I get that now. It's just that it was one sentence and the selling part pertains to the sentence content which is the PCP car. Should have typed something like you did above


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't see how this can be true, I paid £6,500 for our car 8 years ago, it's still worth £2,000 so over the 8 years it's cost me £4,000 if I'd leased at £400 per month, £4,800 a year, total cost £38,400 with no asset.



Apples and oranges.

Most of us (obviously including you) wouldn't buy new. Milkfloat clearly would, if he weren't leasing.

Cost comparisons between purchasing and PCP are only valid for buying new, because AFAIK, you cannot get a 2nd hand vehicle on PCP. And one which is leased at £400/month is one which would have cost north of £35,000 to buy.


----------



## Milzy (8 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> You pay £270 a month for insurance…how bad is your driving history?!


So pedantic obviously it’s for the year.


----------



## Milzy (8 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> That's cheap to lease a Polestar?
> 
> https://www.selectcarleasing.co.uk/car-leasing/polestar/2/hatchback



That’s a rip off you may as well buy one if you don’t have company or NHS lease.


----------



## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Apples and oranges.
> 
> Most of us (obviously including you) wouldn't buy new. Milkfloat clearly would, if he weren't leasing.
> 
> Cost comparisons between purchasing and PCP are only valid for buying new, because AFAIK, you cannot get a 2nd hand vehicle on PCP. And one which is leased at £400/month is one which would have cost north of £35,000 to buy.



Our Mini dealer I'm sure does PCP on their used cars. Was looking at an electric mini and sure I came across some used ICE car PCP.


----------



## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> That’s a rip off you may as well buy one if you don’t have company or NHS lease.



Is your £270 a month Polestar salary sacrifice?


----------



## Milzy (8 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> Is your £270 a month Polestar salary sacrifice?



Yeah it’s about £125 more on the other level.


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> But you've paid money for 3 years with no asset to show for it.



His point was that you would be in very close to the same position if you had bought new then sold after three years. The difference between what you pay new and what you can sell for after three years isn't far off what you would have paid for the lease over that period.


----------



## midlife (8 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yeah it’s about £125 more on the other level.



NHS salary sacrifice reduces my pension and at my age I'd rather have the £135 quid a month as pension for the rest of my life lol


----------



## vickster (8 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> So pedantic obviously it’s for the year.



Not really as you said per month in your post…which would be £3240 for the year


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> We have 3 diesel genset farms within 2 miles of our house .... barely a day goes by without the roar of them starting up ... as i cycle north of Doncaster the steam rising from the most heavily subsidised power plant on the planet, DRAX, is seen most days.
> The “Green “ power station in the heart of Rotherham has a constant stream of bulk carriers lined up with wood pellets from the Americas and Lithuania, shipped by ships burning bunker fuel and transported by diesel trucks ....



All reasonable points.



Landsurfer said:


> Green energy is the ultimate “Emperors new clothes” falsehood ....



But this has nothing to do with those points. I have no idea why anybody would call that Rotherham power station "green". No power source that relies on burning fuel is "green" even if what is being burned is "renewable".


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> It's a trick question isn't it? If I was on my bike I wouldn't be stuck in a line of traffic, that's one of the beauties of them, when was the last time you went out, maybe you should ditch your EV & use your bike once in a while.



And perhaps you should answer the clear and obvious intent of the question rather than nitpicking an irrelevance to deflect from the point.

Whether you are "stuck" in the sense of not moving, or whether you are cycling past them makes no difference to the point, which was about which air you would rather be breathing.


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> So my conclusions so far in this debate.
> 
> Those with an EV can't see the viewpoint of those without.
> 
> ...



I don't think anybody here with an EV has suggested any of those things, so I have no idea where you get your "conclusions" from, except maybe the first.
BTW, I don't have an EV, but will be seriously looking at one the next time we change either of our cars - provided the price of 2nd hand ones is reasonable by that time ( which for us means under £10K).


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jul 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> A main residence generating costs is technically a liability not an asset.



No it isn't, because it has a value for which you can sell it (and that will usually be far more than the maintenance costs have been unless you have been unlucky regarding just when you buy and sell).


----------



## DRM (8 Jul 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> We have 3 diesel genset farms within 2 miles of our house .... barely a day goes by without the roar of them starting up ... as i cycle north of Doncaster the steam rising from the most heavily subsidised power plant on the planet, DRAX, is seen most days.
> The “Green “ power station in the heart of Rotherham has a constant stream of bulk carriers lined up with wood pellets from the Americas and Lithuania, shipped by ships burning bunker fuel and transported by diesel trucks ....
> Green energy is the ultimate “Emperors new clothes” falsehood ....



And don’t forget Ferrybridge is doing the same, except they now have a second power station on site burning biomass, all brought in by HGV’s


----------



## SpokeyDokey (9 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> No it isn't, because it has a value for which you can sell it (and that will usually be far more than the maintenance costs have been unless you have been unlucky regarding just when you buy and sell).



I prefer the Rich Dad Poor Dad definition. it's worth a Google and there are plenty of arguments either way.

An asset is something that produces an income - our home produces no income (and worse than that it comes with costs) so is a liability.

Our various investments produce a passive income and are our real assets.

We've certainly got a fair chunk of wealth tied up in our (mortgage free) property but it does nothing for us from an income perspective. This is one of the reasons why we resisted buying the biggest and most expensive house that we could have afforded back in the 90's (when we purchased the house that we live in now).


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## gzoom (9 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> As @ClicheGuevara and others keep trying to point out at this point in time an EV is not for the poor



Actually one of my biggest 'worries' about EVs is the potential (and reality) of worsening the gap between those who have and those who haven't in society interms of personal transportation.

We live in unprecedented times of increased energy costs and fuel costs right?? Here is my total house hold bills including doing roughly 1400 miles in our EV in the last months........£44 all in, for home gas, electricity, EV charging including standing charge.












Someone mentioned about lease/purchase costs etc, well looking at used values we can probably get £60k for our car today, we paid £71k back in 2017, so thats roughly £120/month depreciation (no loan taken).

As for running costs, essentially no/little fuel costs, no annual service (I've paid for one service in 4 years), and no VED.

So the combined depreciation and running costs of our overly massive, unnecessary fast, gadget laden EV doing 10k/miles per hear is almost certainly less than even a used diesel people carrier. 

But the only reason we can access this level of 'cheap' yet very comfortable motoring is because we had/have the means to spend stupid ££££ on a car.......But is it our 'fault' society is setup to enable those who have to have more?? At least I pay my taxes, if you the 'accounting' advice on the Tesla forums from a few years ago, its clear many many people taking home obscene amounts of £££££ pay virtually no tax, quite legally too - just see our former chancellor.....

However given the recent 'concern' the head of the FBI and Mi5 have about the C word, ensuring the status quo of how wealth is gathered and grown in our society is a matter of national security and goes far beyond if EVs are just toys for rich versus a serious means of affordable personal transportation.


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## Phaeton (9 Jul 2022)

The thread has died, there is nothing useful coming out of it, time to put it on ignore


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## Illaveago (9 Jul 2022)

There was an interesting bit on the Beeb 6 o'clock news the other night .
They showed a graph of of the revenue expected by the government from tax and fuel duty with a blue line which ran horizontal . The actual income raised was in red and plummeted to the bottom . It seems that at some point the governments are going to have to charge EV's in a similar way to combustion engined vehicles to keep the country running .


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

It was mentioned further up about the rising number of new EV registrations, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of these, particularly Tesla models are leased company cars, not private purchases, due to the huge cost of them, obviously they will end up on the used car forecourt’s in 3 to 5 years time,but if the residual value is strong, they’re still going to be a pipe dream for most people


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## Chislenko (9 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> It was mentioned further up about the rising number of new EV registrations, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of these, particularly Tesla models are leased company cars, not private purchases, due to the huge cost of them, obviously they will end up on the used car forecourt’s in 3 to 5 years time,but if the residual value is strong, they’re still going to be a pipe dream for most people



Yes, here is a used one at £100k.

I don't know if Ludicrous in the description refers to the model or the price!!

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207087611174?atmobcid=soc5


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## roubaixtuesday (9 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> There are many experts that would have a long debate with you on that



Cool. Link them.


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## midlife (9 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Yes, here is a used one at £100k.
> 
> I don't know if Ludicrous in the description refers to the model or the price!!
> 
> https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207087611174?atmobcid=soc5



Quick check on the US sites say a new model X as above rolls off the production line starting $161,000


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## gzoom (9 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Yes, here is a used one at £100k.
> 
> I don't know if Ludicrous in the description refers to the model or the price!!
> 
> https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202207087611174?atmobcid=soc5



Well the top spec X in the link is actually quicker than an Aventrador, the difference been the Aventrador is strict 2 seater vs up to 7 in the X, and the running costs of the top spec Model X is no different to my base spec car - so essentially almost nothing on fuel and very little maintenance. I have no idea how much an Aventrador cost to buy and run......but in many ways the X is a 'bargain' depending on what you are after in a car.

Believe it or not £100K isn't all that much to spend on a car for some, our ex chancellor for example will be able to tell you how you could actually use that £100K purchase price to reduce your tax bill by that amount all within the current UK legal frame work. 


View: https://youtu.be/sZ7Jlq9mQrY


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-x
Auto Express review above states the cost new is between £101,000 and £116,000 obviously depending on the specifications so, in that case I’m guessing the one in the Autotrader ad in 2 years has lost £16,000 in value, or 13.8% from new, which isn’t bad, but how much would the dealer give as a trade in, at a guess somewhere between £95,000 to £98,000, so it’s still way out of most peoples price range, at the point it becomes less expensive the battery will be shot and it’ll end as an economic write off


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> Well the top spec X in the link is actually quicker than an Aventrador, the difference been the Aventrador is strict 2 seater vs up to 7 in the X, and the running costs of the top spec Model X is no different to my base spec car - so essentially almost nothing on fuel and very little maintenance. I have no idea how much an Aventrador cost to buy and run......but in many ways the X is a 'bargain' depending on what you are after in a car.
> 
> Believe it or not £100K isn't all that much to spend on a car for some, our ex chancellor for example will be able to tell you how you could actually use that £100K purchase price to reduce your tax bill by that amount all within the current UK legal frame work.
> 
> ...



Ah I get it, it’s a tax fiddle for company directors, now we are getting to nub of the matter


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## gzoom (9 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Ah I get it, it’s a tax fiddle for company directors, now we are getting to nub of the matter



If you actually look into the UK tax system, the whole thing is setup to help keep the rich richer.....but as I say, that is accepted norm for society, so don't blame best players of the game, they simply understand the rules of the game much better than everyone else.


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> If you actually look into the UK tax system, the whole thing is setup to help keep the rich richer.....but as I say, that is accepted norm for society, so don't blame best players of the game, they simply understand the rules of the game much better than everyone else.



Not necessarily the best players of any game, if Daddy’s money sets you up in business, and the system keeps you there, then the ordinary Joe doesn’t stand a chance and never has


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## Chislenko (9 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Not necessarily the best players of any game, if Daddy’s money sets you up in business, and the system keeps you there, then the ordinary Joe doesn’t stand a chance and never has



Euan Blair MBE springs to mind!


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## CXRAndy (9 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-x
> Auto Express review above states the cost new is between £101,000 and £116,000 obviously depending on the specifications so, in that case I’m guessing the one in the Autotrader ad in 2 years has lost £16,000 in value, or 13.8% from new, which isn’t bad, but how much would the dealer give as a trade in, at a guess somewhere between £95,000 to £98,000, so it’s still way out of most peoples price range, at the point it becomes less expensive the battery will be shot and it’ll end as an economic write off



There are already Tesla's with a million miles of use. Longevity of batteries is not a concern with 8 yr manufacturers warranty.


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There are already Tesla's with a million miles of use. Longevity of batteries is not a concern with 8 yr manufacturers warranty.



Even at 8 to 10 years old, these cars will be too expensive, your also taking a risk on not just cells starting to fail but also ECU’s another item that won’t come cheaply


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## vickster (9 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There are already Tesla's with a million miles of use. Longevity of batteries is not a concern with 8 yr manufacturers warranty.



Some people do a million miles in 8 years…they need to find something else to do beyond driving a Tesla


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## cougie uk (9 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The thread has died, there is nothing useful coming out of it, time to put it on ignore



I'm not sure you've paid attention to anything anyway so...


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## cougie uk (9 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> There was an interesting bit on the Beeb 6 o'clock news the other night .
> They showed a graph of of the revenue expected by the government from tax and fuel duty with a blue line which ran horizontal . The actual income raised was in red and plummeted to the bottom . It seems that at some point the governments are going to have to charge EV's in a similar way to combustion engined vehicles to keep the country running .



Oh definitely. 
I assume it'll be road pricing. The more miles you do the more you have to pay - which makes sense to me. 

It'll probably focus people more on the actual cost of a trip rather than the tax being hidden in the fuel price.


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## Milzy (9 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Not really as you said per month in your post…which would be £3240 for the year



Ohhh yeah because that’s not unusual. 🙄


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## Milzy (9 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> NHS salary sacrifice reduces my pension and at my age I'd rather have the £135 quid a month as pension for the rest of my life lol



Tomorrow is promised to nobody. Also loads of people retire with good pensions & don’t spend half of it so just spoil the grand kids, give it away to their children as early inheritance. Go on boring unnecessary cruises, spend too much at the garden centres & tea rooms etc.


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## vickster (9 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> Ohhh yeah because that’s not unusual. 🙄



You may have kids who are new drivers? 
Less than perfect financial or insurance history
9 points on your licence
All of the above...
No idea


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## Milzy (9 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> You may have kids who are new drivers?
> Less than perfect financial or insurance history
> 9 points on your licence
> All of the above...
> No idea



Crikey!!!!! Then it really would be worth leasing.


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## CXRAndy (9 Jul 2022)

Bath, Birmingham, Bristol, Portsmouth are soon to introduce clean air zones. Expect many more in the next few years


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## CXRAndy (9 Jul 2022)

My Tesla is updating currently. Just checked the features. This one is interesting

*Regenerative Braking*
Tesla Regenerative Braking feature in update 2022.16.2
Only For Specific Hardware
Models:
3
Y
Availability TBD
Your vehicle can now automatically apply regular brakes for consistent deceleration when regenerative braking is limited due to battery temperature or state of charge. To enable, tap Controls > Pedals & Steering > Apply Brakes When Regenerative Braking Is Limited.

I won't be activating this feature, prefer to save brake material.


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Bath, Birmingham, Bristol, Portsmouth are soon to introduce clean air zones. Expect many more in the next few years



Along with Bradford, yet guess what, they’re not charging car drivers, oh no it’s tradesman and couriers/delivery drivers being penalised, not the huge amount of cars blocking every road for miles around, small businesses being priced off the road because they can’t afford a Euro 6 compliant van, let alone an electric powered van with not enough range to complete their deliveries or work load, but clapped out old diesel cars can drive round with impunity polluting the city all day long


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## CXRAndy (9 Jul 2022)

Soon as the pollution levels are not falling-then private car/motorcycles that emit exhaust pollution will be added to the daily billing. At that point, expect a huge decline in ICE and another jump in EV users


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## midlife (9 Jul 2022)

Just checked and my Ka is Euro 4 petrol so might avoid the Newcastle charge if it comes in


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## Chislenko (9 Jul 2022)

I have a Euro 6 Diesel and every charging zone I have entered my reg into it is exempt from charges.


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## classic33 (9 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I have a Euro 6 Diesel and every charging zone I have entered my reg into it is exempt from charges.


Which shows they daren't apply too harsh a "penalty" on petrol and diesel vehicles, at local level.


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## roubaixtuesday (9 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> at the point it becomes less expensive the battery will be shot and it’ll end as an economic write off



You seem to have a very strange view of what happens to batteries. 

AIUI, their performance decays gradually, but over a realistic car lifetime (say 1000 charges, 200,000 miles) they're not going to be "shot" but perhaps lose a % of range.

Whereas the complicated drive trains of ICE cars have all sorts of expensive failure modes. 

Happy to see any facts that contradict this view.


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## Gillstay (9 Jul 2022)

Used my first electric chainsaw on a tree job last month. Could not believe how good it was. Plus the secondary advantage's of not having to pull start it all day, etc, made up for the shortcomings. Roll on the future !


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## classic33 (9 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> You seem to have a very strange view of what happens to batteries.
> 
> AIUI, their performance decays gradually, but over a realistic car lifetime (say 1000 charges, *200,000 miles*) they're not going to be "shot" but perhaps lose a % of range.
> 
> ...


Is that really a realistic life time, for a car these days?


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> You seem to have a very strange view of what happens to batteries.
> 
> AIUI, their performance decays gradually, but over a realistic car lifetime (say 1000 charges, 200,000 miles) they're not going to be "shot" but perhaps lose a % of range.
> 
> ...



No I don’t have a very strange view of what happens to either lead acid or Li-ion batteries, you can expect between 500 to 1000 full charges from a Li-ion battery, now if that EV has been a company car doing high mileage with let’s say a range of 180 miles real world driving as an average through winter & summer with heating or a/c on as required , along with lighting and in car entertainment being used, at 100,000 miles it’s had 555 full charges, so it will have started to degrade in available range, so consequently it has to be recharged more often, at lets say 4 years old when the car is returned to lease company and ends up on the used car forecourt you can see at best it’s used over half it’s expected life span, possibly even more, so as the range becomes less and less your using up the remaining lifespan even quicker, now as for complicated drive train on ICE’s , EV’s also have a reduction gear between the traction motor and the wheels, which can and do break, the car, particularly in the 4WD variants won’t have a differential, instead they rely on electronics to slow the drive to the inside wheel when cornering, the speed sensors and control ECU’s can fail, speed sensor bearings in traction motors can fail, resulting in the vehicle driving slowly and feeling like it’s literally shaking itself to bits, as can heat sensors, so the car thinks the motor is overheating, the A/C chopper box (the bit that turns DC battery power to A/C) can fail, generally losing one of the three phases to the motor is most common, it’s not fault free running electrical vehicles, all of the above will lead to huge repair bills, both in time consuming labour and expensive replacement parts


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## roubaixtuesday (9 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Is that really a realistic life time, for a car these days?



Are you suggesting too long or too short?


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## roubaixtuesday (9 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> No I don’t have a very strange view of what happens to either lead acid or Li-ion batteries, you can expect between 500 to 1000 full charges from a Li-ion battery, now if that EV has been a company car doing high mileage with let’s say a range of 180 miles real world driving as an average through winter & summer with heating or a/c on as required , along with lighting and in car entertainment being used, at 100,000 miles it’s had 555 full charges, so it will have started to degrade in available range, so consequently it has to be recharged more often, at lets say 4 years old when the car is returned to lease company and ends up on the used car forecourt you can see at best it’s used over half it’s expected life span, possibly even more, so as the range becomes less and less your using up the remaining lifespan even quicker, now as for complicated drive train on ICE’s , EV’s also have a reduction gear between the traction motor and the wheels, which can and do break, the car, particularly in the 4WD variants won’t have a differential, instead they rely on electronics to slow the drive to the inside wheel when cornering, the speed sensors and control ECU’s can fail, speed sensor bearings in traction motors can fail, resulting in the vehicle driving slowly and feeling like it’s literally shaking itself to bits, as can heat sensors, so the car thinks the motor is overheating, the A/C chopper box (the bit that turns DC battery power to A/C) can fail, generally losing one of the three phases to the motor is most common, it’s not fault free running electrical vehicles, all of the above will lead to huge repair bills, both in time consuming labour and expensive replacement parts



Ranty style aside, you seem to agree with me AFAICT; no issue with batteries up to 100k miles, and no significant issue to 200k miles.


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## Alex321 (9 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Is that really a realistic life time, for a car these days?



For a diesel or an EV, yes. My last 3 diesel estates have al done between 230K and 250K before I got rid of them


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## classic33 (9 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Are you suggesting too long or too short?


Having been in one car that clocked a 1,000,000 miles, and was still in use a year later...

Uneconomic repair required, after being hit by a bull, took it off the road.


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## classic33 (9 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> For a diesel or an EV, yes. My last 3 diesel estates have al done between 230K and 250K before I got rid of them


You wanting to swap isn't the same thing as a realistic lifetime.


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## roubaixtuesday (9 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Having been in one car that clocked a 1,000,000 miles, and was still in use a year later...
> 
> Uneconomic repair required, after being hit by a bull, took it off the road.



Sure, but that's completely irrelevant to the question of what's an average lifetime mileage. 

According to this, only a quarter of cars on the road have mileage >100k. Which would suggest there's no way the average lifetime can be >200k?


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## classic33 (9 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Sure, but that's completely irrelevant to the question of what's an average lifetime mileage.
> 
> According to this, only a quarter of cars on the road have mileage >100k. Which would suggest there's no way the average lifetime can be >200k?


Other than it "clocking over", there was nothing great about the mileage according to the owner.


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## roubaixtuesday (9 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Other than it "clocking over", there was nothing great about the mileage according to the owner.



Sure, but again, how is this relevant to how long an average car is run?


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## DRM (9 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Ranty style aside, you seem to agree with me AFAICT; no issue with batteries up to 100k miles, and no significant issue to 200k miles.



Also don’t forget that a Li-ion battery can be ruined by not being charged, as can happen when off lease vehicles are collected , then put into storage prior to going to auction, many ex fleet vehicles will be dropped off at the place of work, swapped for the replacement, then can stand for a quite a while until collection is arranged, then they are taken to an auction site, valeted and put through a sale, then taken off to be sold by the dealer, this whole process can take a fair while to go through, I’ll put money on it nobody will charge it whist it’s between owners


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## icowden (10 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Also don’t forget that a Li-ion battery can be ruined by not being charged, as can happen when off lease vehicles are collected ,


You do know that EV batteries aren't just bigger versions of laptop batteries right? There is quite a lot of tech that manages the battery to try to make sure it doesn't just stop working. Most experts seem to agree that if you are putting an EV in storage it should be charged between 50% and 80%. Many EV's also have a deep sleep or power save mode that will stop the car from going too flat if it is in long term use.


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## Alex321 (10 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> You wanting to swap isn't the same thing as a realistic lifetime.



It means a realistic lifetime is at least that long.


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## CXRAndy (10 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Also don’t forget that a Li-ion battery can be ruined by not being charged, as can happen when off lease vehicles are collected , then put into storage prior to going to auction, many ex fleet vehicles will be dropped off at the place of work, swapped for the replacement, then can stand for a quite a while until collection is arranged, then they are taken to an auction site, valeted and put through a sale, then taken off to be sold by the dealer, this whole process can take a fair while to go through, I’ll put money on it nobody will charge it whist it’s between owners



Lithium battery can be stored for a very long time with around 50% of capacity. It's when they're allowed to fully drain ageing or failure occurs. I store my Tesla in winter around 50%. It remains connected to the charger all the time. The cars electronics periodically charge and discharge a small amount to test the batteries


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## DRM (10 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Which shows they daren't apply too harsh a "penalty" on petrol and diesel vehicles, at local level.


Exactly, terrified of upsetting the people who vote for them, it's a complete waste of time as a scheme, as private cars are the biggest cause of pollution there, every day at peak times traffic is nose to tail, it even backs up on the M62 onto the M606, which at time is at a standstill, these should be the target of a pollution charge as well, as a city, Bradford has no easy access in or out in any direction, not helped by the car culture there where it's cool to have a high performance, usually german car, that gets driven appallingly


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## DRM (10 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> You do know that EV batteries aren't just bigger versions of laptop batteries right? There is quite a lot of tech that manages the battery to try to make sure it doesn't just stop working. Most experts seem to agree that if you are putting an EV in storage it should be charged between 50% and 80%. Many EV's also have a deep sleep or power save mode that will stop the car from going too flat if it is in long term use.




I know all about Lead/Acid and Li-ion batteries, when they get put into sleep mode by the control system, you need to go in with the manufacturers software to get it going again, usually at great expense, hence why I said up thread that when the cars are returned, if the person returning it thinks sod that, I'm not paying to charge it if there's enough charge to get back to the office to collect their new car, then it goes on a car transporter to storage, sits around for a while before being auctioned, hey presto the perfect situation for a battery that will shut itself down.
Actually they are exactly the same as a laptop battery, just more of them, connected in such a manner to give the correct voltage and current output to make car move for the required range in the design spec, if you want more range, you need more cells connected in parallel to give the required current, off the top of my head I believe EV's have batteries that are around 400 to 600 volts, and current output of between 30 to 90 Kwh's, making the current consumption less, and it also charges faster.


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## cougie uk (10 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Is that really a realistic life time, for a car these days?



How many 200,000 mile cars do you see ? I'd say that's gonna be less than 5% of vehicles.


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## Milkfloat (10 Jul 2022)

Phaeton said:


> I can't see how this can be true, I paid £6,500 for our car 8 years ago, it's still worth £2,000 so over the 8 years it's cost me £4,000 if I'd leased at £400 per month, £4,800 a year, total cost £38,400 with no asset.



I pay £122 per month on a BMW, including the deposit this is amortised at £179 a month. The company I work for demand a car that is a maximum of 3 years old, so normally the depreciation would totally kill me, leasing it is someone else's problem. The trick is to go for the cheapest deal and not be fussy in the exact car you want and stay away from the options. Having said that, at the moment there are no good deals on leasing due to the chip shortage.


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## Alex321 (10 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How many 200,000 mile cars do you see ? I'd say that's gonna be less than 5% of vehicles.



If you mean cars currently on the road which have done 200,000+ miles, then yes, you are probably right.

If you mean cars that will reach 200,000+ miles, then I think you are way out. Probably closer to 10 times that, even allowing for the fact that petrol cars tend to have a lower lifespan than diesel.


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## roubaixtuesday (11 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If you mean cars currently on the road which have done 200,000+ miles, then yes, you are probably right.
> 
> If you mean cars that will reach 200,000+ miles, then I think you are way out. Probably closer to 10 times that, even allowing for the fact that petrol cars tend to have a lower lifespan than diesel.



Currently, according to the link I posted earlier, only 25% of cars on the road are above 100,000 miles. That strongly suggests the average car lasts far less than 200,000 miles and maybe even less than 100,000.

Nothing radical has changed in ICE cars over the last couple of decades, so to go from average total mileage around 100,000 to more than 200,000 seems very unlikely, to put it mildly. 

Of course, it may be that electric cars are so much longer lasted that they change that figure, but if so, it makes the supposed battery lifetime issue somewhat irrelevant!


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## Alex321 (11 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Currently, according to the link I posted earlier, only 25% of cars on the road are above 100,000 miles. That strongly suggests the average car lasts far less than 200,000 miles and maybe even less than 100,000.
> 
> Nothing radical has changed in ICE cars over the last couple of decades, so to go from average total mileage around 100,000 to more than 200,000 seems very unlikely, to put it mildly.
> 
> Of course, it may be that electric cars are so much longer lasted that they change that figure, but if so, it makes the supposed battery lifetime issue somewhat irrelevant!



I'm not suggesting that the average car lifespan is as much as 200,000 miles.

I'm saying that I think a lot more than your suggested 5% will reach that.

Most diesel engined cars for at least the last 30 years have been capable of doing significantly more than that, and I think quite a high proportion will have done so. Fewer with petrol engined cars, but even those, I would think probably a bit more than 5%.


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## roubaixtuesday (11 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I'm not suggesting that the average car lifespan is as much as 200,000 miles.
> 
> I'm saying that I think a lot more than your suggested 5% will reach that.



I didn't say 5% (I didn't quote any figure)

All I said was that for a lifespan of 200,000 miles, battery performance is unlikely to me a major issue, and then that *current* average lifespan of cars seems to be around 100,000 ish miles. So battery lifespan is a non-issue, relative to the real lifespan of current cars.

That's using what I could uncover from a noddy google search, so very happy to be corrected if there are reputable sources showing otherwise.


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## Illaveago (11 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Bath, Birmingham, Bristol, Portsmouth are soon to introduce clean air zones. Expect many more in the next few years



It's all very well for them but it only increases the pollution for other people . . HGV's aren't allowed through Bath and are directed down the A350 increasing traffic and pollution .


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## Alex321 (11 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I didn't say 5% (I didn't quote any figure)
> 
> All I said was that for a lifespan of 200,000 miles, battery performance is unlikely to me a major issue, and then that *current* average lifespan of cars seems to be around 100,000 ish miles. So battery lifespan is a non-issue, relative to the real lifespan of current cars.
> 
> That's using what I could uncover from a noddy google search, so very happy to be corrected if there are reputable sources showing otherwise.



Sorry, that was Cougie_uk who suggested 5%, not you.


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## CXRAndy (11 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> It's all very well for them but it only increases the pollution for other people . . HGV's aren't allowed through Bath and are directed down the A350 increasing traffic and pollution .



Electrification or hydrogen for HGV is here now. Amazon has ordered something like 100,000 EV delivery vans from Rivian. The whole transport system will need to be overhauled completely if we are to help reverse global climate and pollution.

Change isn't going to happen in parallel across all transport types, would be wonderous if it did. Piecemeal approach, as there are so many NIMBYs, Neo Luddites.


----------



## Illaveago (11 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Electrification or hydrogen for HGV is here now. Amazon has ordered something like 100,000 EV delivery vans from Rivian. The whole transport system will need to be overhauled completely if we are to help reverse global climate and pollution.
> 
> Change isn't going to happen in parallel across all transport types, would be wonderous if it did. Piecemeal approach, as there are so many NIMBYs, Neo Luddites.



In the meantime whilst the motorist is having to carry the can flying is exempt and is on the increase with expansion of airports planned .


----------



## CXRAndy (11 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> In the meantime whilst the motorist is having to carry the can flying is exempt and is on the increase with expansion of airports planned .



Since COVID and the current lack of flights. Ideal opportunity to stop flying and collapse airline companies. We don't need to fly on holiday every year


----------



## roubaixtuesday (11 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> In the meantime whilst the motorist is having to carry the can flying is exempt and is on the increase with expansion of airports planned .



The relative subsidy of flying, mainly used by the wealthy, over other forms of transport is a scandal entirely regardless of climate change. Taking the co2 into account as well makes it absolutely absurd.


----------



## Gillstay (11 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> In the meantime whilst the motorist is having to carry the can flying is exempt and is on the increase with expansion of airports planned .



I feel the motorist is not doing enough as they sit around with engines running to charge mobile phones, or to justify being parked in the wrong place. They are buying foolishly large vehicles that are becoming less efficient at a time we need them to be more so.


----------



## icowden (11 Jul 2022)

Gillstay said:


> I feel the motorist is not doing enough as they sit around with engines running to charge mobile phones, or to justify being parked in the wrong place. They are buying foolishly large vehicles that are becoming less efficient at a time we need them to be more so.


I'd agree with you except that vehicles cars are becoming more efficient not less.


----------



## Gillstay (11 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> I'd agree with you except that vehicles cars are becoming more efficient not less.



Not quite so as large tyres, weight and SUV type cars is making the average mpg less rather than more. USA had gone 14% in the wrong direction last time I checked, which is mind you a couple of years ago. I wonder if the engines efficiency is peaking and market trends are ruining any gains.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (11 Jul 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Not quite so as large tyres, weight and SUV type cars is making the average mpg less rather than more. USA had gone 14% in the wrong direction last time I checked, which is mind you a couple of years ago. I wonder if the engines efficiency is peaking and market trends are ruining any gains.



Exactly this. Size and power output of cars has increased massively in recent years IMO, based on the number of mahoosive obscenely overpowered Chelsea tractors on the road. 

... checks for evidence... ... can't find anything... ... Will stick to my prejudices unless anyone can disabuse me...


----------



## mistyoptic (11 Jul 2022)

Gillstay said:


> I feel the motorist is not doing enough *as they sit around with engines running *to charge mobile phones, or to justify being parked in the wrong place. They are buying foolishly large vehicles that are becoming less efficient at a time we need them to be more so.


This!

In car parks

while collecting their children from nursery (suffocating the other parents in the process)

etc. etc.

makes me wonder how many of them pay for their own fuel


----------



## roubaixtuesday (11 Jul 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> This!
> 
> In car parks
> 
> ...



It's apparently illegal to sit with your engine idling. 

https://www.webuyanycar.com/guides/car-ownership/leave-your-car-running-idling/

As well as stupid.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (11 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> It's apparently illegal to sit with your engine idling.
> 
> https://www.webuyanycar.com/guides/car-ownership/leave-your-car-running-idling/
> 
> As well as stupid.



That article is incorrect. Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says no such thing, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations of 2002 only apply if they have designated the area.


----------



## DRM (11 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Electrification or hydrogen for HGV is here now. Amazon has ordered something like 100,000 EV delivery vans from Rivian. The whole transport system will need to be overhauled completely if we are to help reverse global climate and pollution.
> 
> Change isn't going to happen in parallel across all transport types, would be wonderous if it did. Piecemeal approach, as there are so many NIMBYs, Neo Luddites.



Yes a load of electric Mercedes Sprinters, with 95 miles range at best, I believe real world range is around 80 miles, absolutely hopeless for a van, no good for Couriers or Service Technicians, with a miserly 731 kg payload, in my case it would be overloaded, where my current van would be well within load capacity, and I’d spend more time charging it than working, it wouldn’t even get me to my first job tomorrow


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That article is incorrect. Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says no such thing, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations of 2002 only apply if they have designated the area.



It is sort of correct, although in a roundabout way.

Section 42 of the RTA says it is an offence to breach construction and use regulations, and Construction & Use Regulation 98 says:

"Stopping of engine when stationary​98.—(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), the driver of a vehicle shall, when the vehicle is stationary, stop the action of any machinery attached to or forming part of the vehicle so far as may be necessary for the prevention of noise.

(2) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply—

(a)when the vehicle is stationary owing to the necessities of traffic;

(b)so as to prevent the examination or working of the machinery where the examination is necessitated by any failure or derangement of the machinery or where the machinery is required to be worked for a purpose other than driving the vehicle; or

(c)in respect of a vehicle propelled by gas produced in plant carried on the vehicle, to such plant."


----------



## roubaixtuesday (11 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That article is incorrect. Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 says no such thing, and the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) Regulations of 2002 only apply if they have designated the area.



AIUI that section makes the highest code enforceable.

The code states

Rule 123. The Driver and the Environment. *You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road*.

Happy to be corrected. 

[I see @Alex321 beat me to it]


----------



## ClichéGuevara (11 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> AIUI that section makes the highest code enforceable.
> 
> The code states
> 
> ...



Only if the local authority have applied for a designation under other legislation.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (11 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is sort of correct, although in a roundabout way.
> 
> Section 42 of the RTA says it is an offence to breach construction and use regulations, and Construction & Use Regulation 98 says:
> 
> ...



It's unenforceable unless the local authority have applied for a designation, or the vehicle is unattended.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's unenforceable unless the local authority have applied for a designation, or the vehicle is unattended.



Any reason for that belief?

Section 42 of the RTA says nothing about any designation, and nor does regulation 98.

The "designation" you are talking about is completely separate legislation, applying to completely separate regulations.

The "unattended" bit is CUR 107. CUR 98 is the one which matters here when the vehicle is occupied.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (11 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Any reason for that belief?
> 
> Section 42 of the RTA says nothing about any designation, and nor does regulation 98.
> 
> ...



It's not a belief, it's a fact, but feel free to pay the fines if you doubt me.


----------



## icowden (11 Jul 2022)

Gillstay said:


> Not quite so as large tyres, weight and SUV type cars is making the average mpg less rather than more. USA had gone 14% in the wrong direction last time I checked, which is mind you a couple of years ago. I wonder if the engines efficiency is peaking and market trends are ruining any gains.


But now we are seeing the switch to EVs - so mpg becomes irrelevant and efficiency more than doubles. So whilst thy might have much more weight, the motor efficiency more than makes up for it. To make them better we need more investment in renewables. Norway is 99% renewable energy so their EVs are the cleanest in the world.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's not a belief, it's a fact, but feel free to pay the fines if you doubt me.



So how do you explain away the actual regulations I quoted, turning them into your "fact" that they don't apply?

I won't be paying any fines, because it is just not something I would do anyhow. But fine would be payable and enforceable. I have no idea why you believe otherwise.


----------



## classic33 (12 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> AIUI that section makes the highest code enforceable.
> 
> The code states
> 
> ...


Slightly different wording in the current Highway Code, plus exclusions.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> So how do you explain away the actual regulations I quoted, turning them into your "fact" that they don't apply?
> 
> I won't be paying any fines, because it is just not something I would do anyhow. But fine would be payable and enforceable. I have no idea why you believe otherwise.



https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1808/contents/made


3.—(1) Where any part of the area of a local authority is for the time being designated as an air quality management area in accordance with section 83, that authority may apply to the Secretary of State to be a designated local authority.

(2) An application under paragraph (1) shall be in writing and shall be accompanied by a copy of each of the following documents—

(a)the latest review it has conducted, and the latest assessment it has made pursuant to section 82; and

(b)the order designating its air quality management area pursuant to section 83.


----------



## Alex321 (12 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1808/contents/made
> 
> 
> 3.—(1) Where any part of the area of a local authority is for the time being designated as an air quality management area in accordance with section 83, that authority may apply to the Secretary of State to be a designated local authority.
> ...



Different legislation.

Have you even looked at the legislation I referred to?

Construction and Use regulations
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/98/made


> Stopping of engine when stationary​98.—(1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), the driver of a vehicle shall, when the vehicle is stationary, stop the action of any machinery attached to or forming part of the vehicle so far as may be necessary for the prevention of noise.
> 
> (2) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply—
> 
> ...




And this part of the Road Traffic Act makes it an offence to breach the CUR.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/42


> [F142Breach of other construction and use requirements.​A person who—
> 
> (a)contravenes or fails to comply with any construction or use requirement other than one within section 41A(a) or 41B(1)(a) [F2or 41D] of this Act, or
> 
> ...



Now, if you can explain why the above does not apply (or needs designation), please do.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Different legislation.
> 
> Have you even looked at the legislation I referred to?
> 
> ...



Full circle, because the legislation doesn't stand alone. It needs to be designated before the local authority has the right to issue penalties.


----------



## mistyoptic (12 Jul 2022)

Surely we’re all agreed it’s a bad idea. Why does it have to turn into yet another bickering match?


----------



## cougie uk (12 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Exactly this. Size and power output of cars has increased massively in recent years IMO, based on the number of mahoosive obscenely overpowered Chelsea tractors on the road.
> 
> ... checks for evidence... ... can't find anything... ... Will stick to my prejudices unless anyone can disabuse me...



It seems like an arms race. Cars get bigger so people buy even bigger cars to get one up. 

I'd like the next trend to be efficiency but not seeing much sign of that as yet.


----------



## cougie uk (12 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Yes a load of electric Mercedes Sprinters, with 95 miles range at best, I believe real world range is around 80 miles, absolutely hopeless for a van, no good for Couriers or Service Technicians, with a miserly 731 kg payload, in my case it would be overloaded, where my current van would be well within load capacity, and I’d spend more time charging it than working, it wouldn’t even get me to my first job tomorrow



So why would Amazon of all people buy 1800 electric vans if they're hopeless ? I'm sure they've trialled first and found them suitable for their needs.


----------



## Alex321 (12 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Full circle, because the legislation doesn't stand alone. It needs to be designated before the local authority has the right to issue penalties.



False.

The construction and Use Regulations do stand alone. And the section of the RTA which makes it an offence to breach them makes no mention of "designation".

If you think otherwise, please find the part of either the Construction and Use regulations, or the Road Traffic Act which restricts those clauses to designated places.

Oh, and I don't think it is the local authority that would issue penalties for this, since it is listed in the RTA as an offence.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> False.
> 
> The construction and Use Regulations do stand alone. And the section of the RTA which makes it an offence to breach them makes no mention of "designation".
> 
> ...



It really isn't false, but I'm bored of pointing you at the information, and you choosing to ignore it.


----------



## vickster (12 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> So why would Amazon of all people buy 1800 electric vans if they're hopeless ? I'm sure they've trialled first and found them suitable for their needs.



Different brand/model of van?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> But now we are seeing the switch to EVs - so mpg becomes irrelevant and efficiency more than doubles. So whilst thy might have much more weight, the motor efficiency more than makes up for it. To make them better we need more investment in renewables. Norway is 99% renewable energy so their EVs are the cleanest in the world.



That's somewhat misleading, as Norway has a larger carbon footprint per capita, as they basically fund the hydroelectric schemes using money they gain from selling as much oil as they can, and in a Country where the longest motorway is probably 30 miles, range concerns aren't as much of an issue.


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## cougie uk (12 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Different brand/model of van?



Mercedes electric Sprinters.


----------



## Alex321 (12 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It really isn't false, but I'm bored of pointing you at the information, and you choosing to ignore it.



You haven't pointed me at the information.

You keep pointing at information about *different* legislation.

I know perfectly well that the Vehicle emissions legislation requires designation of the area.

But the Construction & Use regulations regulation 98 needs no such designation, and you have provided no evidence whatsoever to show otherwise. That regulation is NOT part of the emissions control legislation - it is in fact about noise control.

[EDIT]
I note that the emissions legislation (only in the explanatory note) does in fact mention regulation 98, but only insofar as it pertains to prevention of exhaust emissions. Which seems a little odd, since regulation 98 doesn't mention exhaust emissions.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> You haven't pointed me at the information.
> 
> You keep pointing at information about *different* legislation.
> 
> ...


----------



## SpokeyDokey (12 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> That's somewhat misleading, as Norway has a larger carbon footprint per capita, as they basically fund the hydroelectric schemes using money they gain from selling as much oil as they can, and in a Country where the longest motorway is probably 30 miles, range concerns aren't as much of an issue.



The Norwegian saintly green halo is a myth - no one really likes to talk about it as they are held up to be a beacon of environmentalism in the dark rest of the world.

Their whole economy has been pretty much built upon oil and gas exports and still is AFAIK.

They are also huge investors in oil and gas production industries elsewhere on the planet.

Kill their fossil fuel production and they have a heck of a set of problems to address (see key revenue, GDP and employment numbers further down the thread).

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...MQFnoECAwQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3rL-xXsjlwDWq2BT8iIK4_

As ever, with this knee jerk switch to EV's and renewables per se, much still needs to be thought through - or at least we need to see more honesty from the key stakeholders.


----------



## FishFright (12 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> No I don’t have a very strange view of what happens to either lead acid or Li-ion batteries, you can expect between 500 to 1000 full charges from a Li-ion battery, now if that EV has been a company car doing high mileage with let’s say a range of 180 miles real world driving as an average through winter & summer with heating or a/c on as required , along with lighting and in car entertainment being used, at 100,000 miles it’s had 555 full charges, so it will have started to degrade in available range, so consequently it has to be recharged more often, at lets say 4 years old when the car is returned to lease company and ends up on the used car forecourt you can see at best it’s used over half it’s expected life span, possibly even more, so as the range becomes less and less your using up the remaining lifespan even quicker, now as for complicated drive train on ICE’s , EV’s also have a reduction gear between the traction motor and the wheels, which can and do break, the car, particularly in the 4WD variants won’t have a differential, instead they rely on electronics to slow the drive to the inside wheel when cornering, the speed sensors and control ECU’s can fail, speed sensor bearings in traction motors can fail, resulting in the vehicle driving slowly and feeling like it’s literally shaking itself to bits, as can heat sensors, so the car thinks the motor is overheating, the A/C chopper box (the bit that turns DC battery power to A/C) can fail, generally losing one of the three phases to the motor is most common, it’s not fault free running electrical vehicles, all of the above will lead to huge repair bills, both in time consuming labour and expensive replacement parts



Unlike ICE cars that run for a million miles with barely a service or spare part .

But on a serious note ask someone who runs a scrapyard what the average mileage of a scrapped car is , you will be seriously shocked .


----------



## DRM (12 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> Unlike ICE cars that run for a million miles with barely a service or spare part .
> 
> But on a serious note ask someone who runs a scrapyard what the average mileage of a scrapped car is , you will be seriously shocked .



Not really, my old Disco was sold on at 240,000 miles, I reckon that if my patch at work stays the same and I keep my current van for the full 5 years, it’ll have around 150,000 miles on it.


----------



## Gillstay (12 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> But now we are seeing the switch to EVs - so mpg becomes irrelevant and efficiency more than doubles. So whilst thy might have much more weight, the motor efficiency more than makes up for it. To make them better we need more investment in renewables. Norway is 99% renewable energy so their EVs are the cleanest in the world.



Mpg doesn't really become irrelevant as those cars are still polluting needlessly. If you recall people used to be able 25 years ago to get 65 mpg out of a mini and now how many cars can do that ? So where is the progress. Your correct about countries like Norway but we need to do much better.


----------



## Chislenko (12 Jul 2022)

@cougie uk

Green Lane Park & Ride Update.

Cycled past today, circa 3.30.

Six cars parked in the normal bays, two in the electric charging bays although neither of them were plugged in.

Small shuttle bus waiting to ferry people so it appears some people are using the Park And Ride.

However as an EV owner you can educate me here.

Let's say Dave parks his EV there at 8.00 a.m. plugs in and gets the shuttle bus to work.

Does he then have to come back an hour or so later and unplug it?


----------



## cougie uk (13 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> @cougie uk
> 
> Green Lane Park & Ride Update.
> 
> ...



Good question. 
As far as I can see those chargers aren't on any map that I can see so not sure how fast they are. 

If they have been sensible at least a few should be slow chargers - cheaper to buy and a full shift should fill up any car. I'll have a nosey next time I go past.


----------



## icowden (13 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> However as an EV owner you can educate me here.
> Let's say Dave parks his EV there at 8.00 a.m. plugs in and gets the shuttle bus to work.
> Does he then have to come back an hour or so later and unplug it?


I think it depends on who owns the EV charger and what their administration rules are. Some chargers limit the number of hours that you can be there and charge you penalties for overstaying. I'd imaging as this is a park and ride, you are permitted to stay on charge all day.


----------



## icowden (13 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Different brand/model of van?



1200 eSprinters and 600 longer range eVitos. This suggests to me that they know that the mileage that a delivery van does is often quite small, with the longest part of the journey being from the depot to the residential area they are servicing.

For example there are two Amazon warehouses within 10 miles drive of my house. So 20 miles to get to/ from my area and the rest is driving 200 yards, then deliver around an area of 10 square km max. So for Urban and Suburban delivery they are ideal and probably far more cost effective than constantly starting and stopping a diesel engine.


----------



## CXRAndy (13 Jul 2022)

The eVito has a decent range.
https://ev-database.uk/car/1615/Mercedes-eVito-Tourer-L2-90-kWh

The e Vito van is OK too, the Sprinter has the shortest range. So the use and allocation within a delivery company needs to be resourced carefully. https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/electric-vans

A van for each job


----------



## icowden (13 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The eVito has a decent range.
> https://ev-database.uk/car/1615/Mercedes-eVito-Tourer-L2-90-kWh
> 
> The e Vito van is OK too, the Sprinter has the shortest range. So the use and allocation within a delivery company needs to be resourced carefully. https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/electric-vans
> ...



Indeed. A good example would be where my mum is in Worcester which is very rural. The local warehouse is in Redditch about 20 miles away but distances between villages can be 2 or 3 miles. A sprinter probably isn't going to have enough range to do very much. The eVito on the other hand has enough to roam the worcestershire countryside and get back to base.


----------



## DRM (13 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> So why would Amazon of all people buy 1800 electric vans if they're hopeless ? I'm sure they've trialled first and found them suitable for their needs.



I think you’ll find Amazon haven’t bought anything, the courier company contracted to deliver for Amazon have ordered them, now Amazon are opening huge warehouses all over Britain, I’ve seen personally in Yorkshire and the North East there are 2 in Leeds, 1 at Bowburn, Co Durham, Darlington, Doncaster, along with others strategically built to service large conurbations so they don’t travel that far, and the amount of load weight wise isn’t going to be huge, whereas the couriers that will turn up at the drop of a hat and take that pallet of goods from one place to another won’t touch these with a barge pole, the range and load capacity is just nowhere near good enough


----------



## cougie uk (13 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> I think you’ll find Amazon haven’t bought anything, the courier company contracted to deliver for Amazon have ordered them, now Amazon are opening huge warehouses all over Britain, I’ve seen personally in Yorkshire and the North East there are 2 in Leeds, 1 at Bowburn, Co Durham, Darlington, Doncaster, along with others strategically built to service large conurbations so they don’t travel that far, and the amount of load weight wise isn’t going to be huge, whereas the couriers that will turn up at the drop of a hat and take that pallet of goods from one place to another won’t touch these with a barge pole, the range and load capacity is just nowhere near good enough



Hence why I said they're suitable for their needs. 

Great that there's 1800 less diesels being bought eh ?


----------



## DRM (13 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The eVito has a decent range.
> https://ev-database.uk/car/1615/Mercedes-eVito-Tourer-L2-90-kWh
> 
> The e Vito van is OK too, the Sprinter has the shortest range. So the use and allocation within a delivery company needs to be resourced carefully. https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/electric-vans
> ...



E-Vito can only carry 807 kg, and will go for 162 miles, real world probably 120 miles, in contrast the comparable sized Toyota Proace with a Diesel engine will carry 1400 kg, and with a 69 litre tank will go 600 miles, it seems the E-Proace can carry 1200 kg and has a max range of 205 miles, real world I should think will be about 160, how Mercedes can make vans like that is beyond me.


----------



## DRM (13 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Hence why I said they're suitable for their needs.
> 
> Great that there's 1800 less diesels being bought eh ?



Not really when they after the lease is up they can’t sell them on due to the lack of range, so they end up getting crushed, seem to be very environmentally unfriendly in comparison


----------



## Alex321 (13 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Not really when they after the lease is up they can’t sell them on due to the lack of range, so they end up getting crushed, seem to be very environmentally unfriendly in comparison



Why do you think they won't be able to sell them?

There are MANY vans of that sort of size out there which very rarely, if ever, need more range than that in a day.


----------



## DRM (13 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Why do you think they won't be able to sell them?
> 
> There are MANY vans of that sort of size out there which very rarely, if ever, need more range than that in a day.



By the time the drivers have done with them, there won’t be a straight panel left, plus Sprinters dissolve into rust quite rapidly, not only that the range could well be down to 30 to 40 miles by then, there’s also the rubbish carrying capacity, all adds up to a not very attractive prospect


----------



## Jenkins (13 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The eVito has a decent range.
> https://ev-database.uk/car/1615/Mercedes-eVito-Tourer-L2-90-kWh
> 
> The e Vito van is OK too, the Sprinter has the shortest range. So the use and allocation within a delivery company needs to be resourced carefully. https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/electric-vans
> ...



Fifth Gear did a test of the eVito against the electric VW Transporter when fully loaded with very poor results

However, I'd have thought that the Amazon electric vans would be much more lightly loaded and therefore ideal for the frequent stop-start nature of urban home delivery when in range of one of the distribution warehouses


----------



## cougie uk (14 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> By the time the drivers have done with them, there won’t be a straight panel left, plus Sprinters dissolve into rust quite rapidly, not only that the range could well be down to 30 to 40 miles by then, there’s also the rubbish carrying capacity, all adds up to a not very attractive prospect



Are petrol sprinters made out of stainless steel or do they rust away too?

And where are you getting that range from ? You're just guessing. 

I would have thought that if range was an issue it's worth servicing the battery packs for that many vehicles. 

I don't know why you're not a billionaire what with knowing more about delivery fleets than Amazon do.


----------



## Alex321 (14 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Are petrol sprinters made out of stainless steel or do they rust away too?
> 
> And where are you getting that range from ? You're just guessing.
> 
> ...



He wasn't suggesting Amazon are wrong (economically), he was suggesting that because of his (total guess) final range, they would be unsellable, and would therefore be scrapped after just a few years in the Amazon fleet.

I have no idea which piece of thin air that range guess was plucked from. But it was a necessary guess to validate his theory thath they will be unsellable.


----------



## gzoom (14 Jul 2022)

Whilst people here 'debate' about delivery vans, we've just arrived in Norway after a 1500km trip from Leicester .

Am speechless at the beauty of this place, and I've been lucky enough to travel around quite a bit. 

Our EV is 5 years old already, but I feel like I've only just found it's calling.....transcontinental road trips across Europe. EVs are expensive, but if you enjoy road trips than an expensive car is probably justified, and an EV will work just as well as any combustion car for European holidays.


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## CXRAndy (14 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> E-Vito can only carry 807 kg, and will go for 162 miles, real world probably 120 miles, in contrast the comparable sized Toyota Proace with a Diesel engine will carry 1400 kg, and with a 69 litre tank will go 600 miles, it seems the E-Proace can carry 1200 kg and has a max range of 205 miles, real world I should think will be about 160, how Mercedes can make vans like that is beyond me.



But it's a diesel, they emit pollutants into people's lungs. 

EV database for the Vito car are pretty accurate real world numbers. I never pay attention to wltp figure. EPA has reasobly reliable reported in numbers .


----------



## mustang1 (14 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> But it's a diesel, they emit pollutants into people's lungs.
> 
> EV database for the Vito car are pretty accurate real world numbers. I never pay attention to wltp figure. EPA has reasobly reliable reported in numbers .



I get the WLTP figure and multiply it by 0.67 to get a low figure mileage, and 0.75 to get a high figure.


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## CXRAndy (14 Jul 2022)

mustang1 said:


> I get the WLTP figure and multiply it by 0.67 to get a low figure mileage, and 0.75 to get a high figure.



Good advice, pretty much like ICE with their pie in the sky drive cycle laboratory 20 min test for real world MPG.  My friends went to an event down south, they had luxury type cars. All were bleating that they only got 25-28mpg for a 200 mile trip.

I got 107e-mpg in my luxury Tesla


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## Chislenko (14 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I got 107e-mpg in my luxury Tesla




View: https://youtu.be/FUX_6zIMVhQ


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## DRM (14 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Are petrol sprinters made out of stainless steel or do they rust away too?
> 
> And where are you getting that range from ? You're just guessing.
> 
> ...


All Sprinters rust for fun, as vans go they are rubbish, it’s no good replacing a battery pack in a van that’s battered and rotten , hence they will not sell and end up as scrap, the reason why they get battered is because drivers are issued a different van everyday, they will as likely as such have around up to 200 parcels to deliver, the van isn’t important getting those deliveries done is, I DO know this because I’ve seen it put into practice, even worse treatment of the vehicles when they get temps in as well, those people really don’t care, so what’s your experience of transport and warehousing, seen as I know nothing?


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## DRM (14 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> But it's a diesel, they emit pollutants into people's lungs.
> 
> EV database for the Vito car are pretty accurate real world numbers. I never pay attention to wltp figure. EPA has reasobly reliable reported in numbers .



If you read what I wrote properly, the E-Proace has far superior carrying capacity and range, also has galvanized bodywork, so don’t dissolve like Merc vans do, for some industries the electric versions are no good and will have to stick with diesel vans, it’s as simple as that


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## icowden (15 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> All Sprinters rust for fun, as vans go they are rubbish, it’s no good replacing a battery pack in a van that’s battered and rotten , hence they will not sell and end up as scrap,


But you don't think that the battery will get re-used?


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## gzoom (15 Jul 2022)

As 'interesting' as arguing about vans are, I was out at 6am today in my PJs driving literally over the Atlantic, in our 5 year old EV.....


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## Chislenko (15 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> As 'interesting' as arguing about vans are, I was out at 6am today in my PJs driving literally over the Atlantic, in our EV.....
> 
> View attachment 652845
> 
> ...



Do you have to drive round with that big solar panel on the roof 😀😀


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## gzoom (15 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Do you have to drive round with that big solar panel on the roof 😀😀



It's part of the advanced Autopilot feature, when the car detects some one is trying to take a photo, the doors open automatically .


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## Chislenko (15 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> It's part of the advanced Autopilot feature, when the car detects some one is trying to take a photo, the doors open automatically .
> 
> View attachment 652847



Not knowing much about Tesla cars is it just the rear doors that open like that? Do the front ones open in a conventional way or do they go up and over?

Must admit after nigh on 50 years working in the motor trade I have very little interest in cars nowadays.


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Good advice, pretty much like ICE with their pie in the sky drive cycle laboratory 20 min test for real world MPG.  My friends went to an event down south, they had luxury type cars. All were bleating that they only got 25-28mpg for a 200 mile trip.
> 
> I got 107e-mpg in my luxury Tesla



All idiots spending that much on a tin box, sorry ! Fools and money.


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Not knowing much about Tesla cars is it just the rear doors that open like that? Do the front ones open in a conventional way or do they go up and over?
> 
> Must admit after nigh on 50 years working in the motor trade I have very little interest in cars nowadays.



Just the SUV (aka stupid tank) has the gul wing doors. The other's normal doors. SUV, gul wing rears, normal front.


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## vickster (15 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> All idiots spending that much on a tin box, sorry ! Fools and money.



Bragging rights down the golf club 
(And on a cycling forum  )


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## ClichéGuevara (15 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> But you don't think that the battery will get re-used?



There's a few businesses that I have been to 'recycling' batteries. They crush them and then separate out the rarer metals for scrap, in a very crude, unenvironmentally friendly process.


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## icowden (15 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just the SUV (aka stupid tank) has the gul wing doors. The other's normal doors. SUV, gul wing rears, normal front.



Two points of order. 

The Tesla X does not have gull wing doors, it has falcon wing doors.
The Texla X and S are the most intelligent cars that money can buy. They have two AI chips which independently assess traffic and danger before combining their knowledge to choose the most appropriate action.


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## icowden (15 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> There's a few businesses that I have been to 'recycling' batteries. They crush them and then separate out the rarer metals for scrap, in a very crude, unenvironmentally friendly process.



Recycling batteries or recycling EV batteries?

https://www.drivingelectric.com/you...ic-car-battery-recycling-all-you-need-to-know


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## Gunk (15 Jul 2022)

Personally I think the Tesla bubble will burst, the X is now 10 years old and the big global manufacturers are producing better built, better looking alternatives.


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## ClichéGuevara (15 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Recycling batteries or recycling EV batteries?
> 
> https://www.drivingelectric.com/you...ic-car-battery-recycling-all-you-need-to-know



EV batteries.


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## icowden (15 Jul 2022)

Gunk said:


> Personally I think the Tesla bubble will burst, the X is now 10 years old and the big global manufacturers are producing better built, better looking alternatives.


True but they are still light years behind what Tesla is trying to achieve, and most of the EVs I have seen fail to be innovative. Many have copied Tesla's ideas but they are still essentially ICE cars with a battery. Tesla sell more than double the number of EVs of their nearest rival.

In the USA in 2022 Q1Tesla sold over 110,000 cars. Their nearest rival is Kia with 8,000 sales and Ford with 7,000 sales.
https://electrek.co/2022/05/16/tesla-top-3-electric-cars-us/

Tesla has between 1.25 million and 3 million pre-orders for the Cybertruck.

There must be something special about a Tesla that a converted Audi just doesn't have...


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Two points of order.
> 
> The Tesla X does not have gull wing doors, it has falcon wing doors.
> The Texla X and S are the most intelligent cars that money can buy. They have two AI chips which independently assess traffic and danger before combining their knowledge to choose the most appropriate action.



More marketing bollix. Falcon wings... jesus wept. AI chips, to make up for idiot drivers who can't drive a bloody car - it's why some cars have great NCAP test scores as a computer is there to make up for the idiot behind the wheel.

Still an overpriced tin box. Give me a pedal bike anyday.


----------



## fossyant (15 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> True but they are still light years behind what Tesla is trying to achieve, and most of the EVs I have seen fail to be innovative. Many have copied Tesla's ideas but they are still essentially ICE cars with a battery. Tesla sell more than double the number of EVs of their nearest rival.
> 
> In the USA in 2022 Q1Tesla sold over 110,000 cars. Their nearest rival is Kia with 8,000 sales and Ford with 7,000 sales.
> https://electrek.co/2022/05/16/tesla-top-3-electric-cars-us/
> ...



'Sell' is another word for lease ! And 3m orders for a truck - this is why the world is going to ruin, why do we need to drive round in pick up trucks - ICE included ! Only farmers need one.


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## Alex321 (15 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> 'Sell' is another word for lease ! And 3m orders for a truck - this is why the world is going to ruin, why do we need to drive round in pick up trucks - ICE included ! Only farmers need one.



And builders, and tree surgeons, and various other trades which often need to carry significant but not massive loads.

And that three million is worldwide, with most of them being in North America. In fact you can no longer order it outside of the USA, Canada and Mexico.


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## fossyant (15 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> And builders, and tree surgeons, and various other trades which often need to carry significant but not massive loads.
> 
> And that three million is worldwide, with most of them being in North America. In fact you can no longer order it outside of the USA, Canada and Mexico.



That's Americans for you, no taste and iust destroy the planet.


----------



## FishFright (15 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> There's a few businesses that I have been to 'recycling' batteries. They crush them and then separate out the rarer metals for scrap, in a very crude, unenvironmentally friendly process.



There's loads of companies recycling the packs by either the replacing the cells which are down and by reselling the good cells for other purposes. Now it's only a multi million pound industry but soon it will be in billions.


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## DRM (15 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> But you don't think that the battery will get re-used?



They may well get recycled, there’s a few companies that buy Lead Acid traction batteries, they scrap the dud cells, the good ones are used to refurbish batteries for older equipment where it’s not economically viable to fit a new battery, but stops a perfectly usable machine getting scrapped because of a worn out battery, it doesn’t take much to imagine that someone will do the same with Li-ion cells, which will give older EV’s a longer life span, I also think that there’ll be a viable aftermarket trade in upgrading batteries to more Kw/h’s just as there are companies that specialize in tune ICE vehicles


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## DRM (15 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> There's a few businesses that I have been to 'recycling' batteries. They crush them and then separate out the rarer metals for scrap, in a very crude, unenvironmentally friendly process.



Got to agree, there was one a couple of miles from me, they basically drain the electrolyte, break open the casing, separated the lead plates from the separator plates, crushed the plastic and the lead went to be melted down to ingots, the staff were regularly tested for lead poisoning, 3 lots of lead poisoning and you were gone, as they said it was then past a safe exposure level!


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## CXRAndy (15 Jul 2022)

Older Lithium car cells have a long afterlife being used as solar backup systems. The rapid load demands are not required for inverters. 

Vehicle to grid will be standard feature of EVs in the coming years . My Leaf has the capability now😉


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## Illaveago (16 Jul 2022)

I was having a think the other day . I was on a trip over to the Dartford area and on the way stopped off at several motorway services . Membury on the M4 had 2 charging points which were in use . The cars were still there after my pit stop . I can't remember seeing any places at the other services on the way . On the way back we stopped off at Newbury on the M3 . Here there were 12 Tesla charging points which will be put into use in the future . 
I'm wondering as more petrol filling stations start to put charging points in will they gradually replace fuel pumps ? 
My next thought was surely this will become uneconomical for the filling stations ? Filling up an ICE fuel tank with fuel takes less than 5 minutes . So on a busy day the filling station can serve a lot of customers . Now EV's take longer to charge , so the number of customers during a day will be a lot lower and so turnover will be lower . The filling stations won't be able to charge too much as people can charge at home . The idea that people will be able to spend their time shopping or doing leisure activities whilst charging seems to be pie in the sky! If queues are forming with people waiting to charge their vehicles whilst other people are swanning around staying longer than necessary this will lead to frustration and anger .
To me it just seems that the whole thing hasn't been thoroughly thought through !


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## figbat (16 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was having a think the other day . I was on a trip over to the Dartford area and on the way stopped off at several motorway services . Membury on the M4 had 2 charging points which were in use . The cars were still there after my pit stop . I can't remember seeing any places at the other services on the way . On the way back we stopped off at Newbury on the M3 . Here there were 12 Tesla charging points which will be put into use in the future .
> I'm wondering as more petrol filling stations start to put charging points in will they gradually replace fuel pumps ?
> My next thought was surely this will become uneconomical for the filling stations ? Filling up an ICE fuel tank with fuel takes less than 5 minutes . So on a busy day the filling station can serve a lot of customers . Now EV's take longer to charge , so the number of customers during a day will be a lot lower and so turnover will be lower . The filling stations won't be able to charge too much as people can charge at home . The idea that people will be able to spend their time shopping or doing leisure activities whilst charging seems to be pie in the sky! If queues are forming with people waiting to charge their vehicles whilst other people are swanning around staying longer than necessary this will lead to frustration and anger .
> To me it just seems that the whole thing hasn't been thoroughly thought through !



Newbury isn’t on the M3…??

Anyway, the economics will change. Whilst the income from charging may differ compared to from fuel, there will be more income from co-located businesses and franchises such as coffee and food outlets, because charging a car is something you ideally do whilst doing something else (generally spending money). And just like fuel on motorways, I see no reason why they can’t charge more for power on major routes regardless of home charging - if you need power you’ll pay for it. There are also a lot more subscription models for charging, meaning the suppliers are making a steady monthly income even if you don’t charge.


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## DRM (16 Jul 2022)

As I’ve said before, a lot of companies have charging points, not loads of them, but invariably they have a Tesla, BMW, Audi or other top end cars plugged in all day as they’re for the exclusive use of managements company cars, if a visitor turned up on business that was in need of a boost I’d put money on it the answer would be no, after all if a site has bunkered diesel for the delivery vehicles you wouldn’t dream of trying to scrounge a few litres to get you to a fuel station.
@Illaveago has a valid point, the petrol stations will have to have a huge change in design in order to accommodate as many EV’s as possible, even then your likely to be disappointed, someone on business doesn’t have time to be hanging about while their vehicle charges, they have things to do, places to go, this is also where EV’s fall down, they do work for private owners with a bit of forward planning, and taking the opportunity for a break, but even then a planned stop can turn into a long wait, especially when motorway services fine you for overstaying


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was having a think the other day . I was on a trip over to the Dartford area and on the way stopped off at several motorway services . Membury on the M4 had 2 charging points which were in use . The cars were still there after my pit stop . I can't remember seeing any places at the other services on the way . On the way back we stopped off at Newbury on the M3 . Here there were 12 Tesla charging points which will be put into use in the future .
> I'm wondering as more petrol filling stations start to put charging points in will they gradually replace fuel pumps ?
> My next thought was surely this will become uneconomical for the filling stations ? Filling up an ICE fuel tank with fuel takes less than 5 minutes . So on a busy day the filling station can serve a lot of customers . Now EV's take longer to charge , so the number of customers during a day will be a lot lower and so turnover will be lower . The filling stations won't be able to charge too much as people can charge at home . The idea that people will be able to spend their time shopping or doing leisure activities whilst charging seems to be pie in the sky! If queues are forming with people waiting to charge their vehicles whilst other people are swanning around staying longer than necessary this will lead to frustration and anger .
> To me it just seems that the whole thing hasn't been thoroughly thought through !



Charging at home, reduces chance you will need to charge whilst shopping. Shopping is usually a local trip.

Rapid chargers can add hundreds of miles in less than one hour. If you went shopping or to a leisure area, you're unlikely need to charge, see above.

If on a longer journey, rapid chargers are required. If you overstay after your car is topped up, bay blocking fees are added. These excess stay fees are extremely expensive.

Tesla for example will limit the charge to 80% at busy sites. Charging above 80% is where the rate of charge is much lower. I get a notification saying my car is nearing this level, please return to remove your vehicle. 

No one is going to leave their car racking up huge fees blocking others from charging. At non Tesla charging stations, you can't charge unless you have a validated payment via contactless or in Tesla's case a valid card on their system.

As more EVs are bought, more charging points will be installed, eventually I expect every parking bay will have a charge point. Most will be 7kw for those drivers who are adding 20-30 miles whilst shopping etc. Work places again will have chargers installed for their driving workforce. 

My wife installed two chargers for her staff, which back then had hybrids and for her to charge her Tesla when in the office. They would happily swap vehicles once a car had been topped up. Please don't suggest it's wasting work time, smokers get several breaks a day to have a cancer stick, so time it takes to move a vehicle is far less. Her system had NFC dongles for those authorised to charge from work. 

There is a shift already taking place to EV transport. Once you have an EV, the adaption to the way you use it, charging etc, is a doddle. 

I've had full EVs a relatively short period, 4 years maybe. At one point we had three EVs in the family with only one 7kW dedicated chargers and an 13amp socket. It was no issue keep these vehicles charged for their uses. We have well over 100k miles of use now, drive 120miles a day mostly with our Nissan Leaf. 

Every morning it's ready to go charged up for its daily drives.


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## Chislenko (16 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> there will be more income from co-located businesses and franchises such as coffee and food outlets, because charging a car is something you ideally do whilst doing something else (generally spending money).



So one should factor in the price of an overpriced Costa coffee and a dried up sausage roll when thinking about buying an EV!


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## FishFright (16 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> So one should factor in the price of an overpriced Costa coffee and a dried up sausage roll when thinking about buying an EV!



Take a flask and a cake. There you go factored in without a multiple.


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## youngoldbloke (16 Jul 2022)

- does anyone actually look forward to a time when a long stay at a hell-hole of a motorway services becomes the norm on a long journey? I've always made a point of avoiding them like the plague.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> So one should factor in the price of an overpriced Costa coffee and a dried up sausage roll when thinking about buying an EV!



There is no obligation to buy anything other than electric if you don't want to.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> - does anyone actually look forward to a time when a long stay at a hell-hole of a motorway services becomes the norm on a long journey? I've always made a point of avoiding them like the plague.



They're only a hell hole if you enter the facilities from than carpark.


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## FishFright (16 Jul 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> - does anyone actually look forward to a time when a long stay at a hell-hole of a motorway services becomes the norm on a long journey? I've always made a point of avoiding them like the plague.



Carry on avoiding them by using off motorway charging . My driving friends never fill up on motorway service station but google the nearest normal petrol station.


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## cougie uk (16 Jul 2022)

Illaveago said:


> I was having a think the other day . I was on a trip over to the Dartford area and on the way stopped off at several motorway services . Membury on the M4 had 2 charging points which were in use . The cars were still there after my pit stop . I can't remember seeing any places at the other services on the way . On the way back we stopped off at Newbury on the M3 . Here there were 12 Tesla charging points which will be put into use in the future .
> I'm wondering as more petrol filling stations start to put charging points in will they gradually replace fuel pumps ?
> My next thought was surely this will become uneconomical for the filling stations ? Filling up an ICE fuel tank with fuel takes less than 5 minutes . So on a busy day the filling station can serve a lot of customers . Now EV's take longer to charge , so the number of customers during a day will be a lot lower and so turnover will be lower . The filling stations won't be able to charge too much as people can charge at home . The idea that people will be able to spend their time shopping or doing leisure activities whilst charging seems to be pie in the sky! If queues are forming with people waiting to charge their vehicles whilst other people are swanning around staying longer than necessary this will lead to frustration and anger .
> To me it just seems that the whole thing hasn't been thoroughly thought through !



Every services that I know has EV chargers. You've just not noticed.

I believe shopping at petrol stations is very profitable for the forecourt - that's why so many of them have a shop. 

Looking at the layout of the petrol pumps it's a bit inefficienct compared to parking bays. You'd fit in more spaces for charging than you would filling with petrol. 

Depending on the speeds of the charger and how big your battery is - it's not that much longer than filling with petrol now. 

Last time I charged away from home I think it was about 20 minutes to get enough charge in. 
By the time you've been for a wee, and grabbed a coffee it's almost time to go again. 


I don't think you've thought this through.


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## cougie uk (16 Jul 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> - does anyone actually look forward to a time when a long stay at a hell-hole of a motorway services becomes the norm on a long journey? I've always made a point of avoiding them like the plague.



It won't be that long and there will be plenty of options off the motorway - businesses offering charging to lure you in for breakfast or a coffee or whatever.


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## cougie uk (16 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> As I’ve said before, a lot of companies have charging points, not loads of them, but invariably they have a Tesla, BMW, Audi or other top end cars plugged in all day as they’re for the exclusive use of managements company cars, if a visitor turned up on business that was in need of a boost I’d put money on it the answer would be no, after all if a site has bunkered diesel for the delivery vehicles you wouldn’t dream of trying to scrounge a few litres to get you to a fuel station.
> @Illaveago has a valid point, the petrol stations will have to have a huge change in design in order to accommodate as many EV’s as possible, even then your likely to be disappointed, someone on business doesn’t have time to be hanging about while their vehicle charges, they have things to do, places to go, this is also where EV’s fall down, they do work for private owners with a bit of forward planning, and taking the opportunity for a break, but even then a planned stop can turn into a long wait, especially when motorway services fine you for overstaying



It'd be a short sighted company that wouldn't put a charger in - especially if you sell things or don't want to look like a stick in the mud. 

When I was working we would provide coffees and sometimes lunches for our suppliers. We'd not charge them for this. Why would a bit of electric be an issue?


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## Illaveago (16 Jul 2022)

At the moment the government gets duty on fuel from filling stations . This is going to reduce as more EV's become common .
Some people talk about road pricing but I see this as an expensive way of collecting duty . It would be better if they came up with a system of taxing electric for road use only . Perhaps a designated plug which would be standardised for all vehicles . For home use it would have to be taxed or leased so that you couldn't charge it at domestic rates . We can't make our own petrol so why should EV's not pay tax ?


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## Illaveago (16 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Every services that I know has EV chargers. You've just not noticed.
> 
> I believe shopping at petrol stations is very profitable for the forecourt - that's why so many of them have a shop.
> 
> ...



The service stations I have visited have very few charging points . I was surprised to see 12 at one on the M3. You may be well served with charging points where you live but down here there are few .
They are there as an additional source of income . The station only gets a few pennies per litre . For them to just sell electric they will need to sell it at a higher rate to make up for the loss of income . A simple way that accountant's would look at it would be to say that each square foot of charging space needs to make a certain amount of £s per hour .
I am thinking this through !


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## midlife (16 Jul 2022)

Thinking of chargers, there is one on my drive. I'll take a pic and maybe someone can tell me what sort it is. Just curious.


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## Illaveago (16 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Newbury isn’t on the M3…??
> 
> Anyway, the economics will change. Whilst the income from charging may differ compared to from fuel, there will be more income from co-located businesses and franchises such as coffee and food outlets, because charging a car is something you ideally do whilst doing something else (generally spending money). And just like fuel on motorways, I see no reason why they can’t charge more for power on major routes regardless of home charging - if you need power you’ll pay for it. There are also a lot more subscription models for charging, meaning the suppliers are making a steady monthly income even if you don’t charge.



Sorry ! It was Fleet Services .


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## midlife (16 Jul 2022)

It’s this charger. Any ideas on what it will charge just out of curiosity.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> It’s this charger. Any ideas on what it will charge just out of curiosity.



Rolec, type 2 connection. Most likely 7kW. but could be 3.6kW.

Type 2 is the most common charger connection, pretty much every car now use type 2 for home use. 



https://www.rolecserv.com/home-charging

Based near Boston Lincs.


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## Chislenko (16 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> There are also a lot more subscription models for charging, meaning the suppliers are making a steady monthly income *even if you don’t charge.*



You're not selling this very well!!


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## Chislenko (16 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There is no obligation to buy anything other than electric if you don't want to.



So what do you do, stand around like one of Burton's?


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## cougie uk (16 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> You're not selling this very well!!



I'll be darned if I'm signing up to anything like that. Charging away from home is incredibly rare. 

On holiday I was just charging with any debit card. No hassle. This is the way it will go.


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## DRM (16 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It'd be a short sighted company that wouldn't put a charger in - especially if you sell things or don't want to look like a stick in the mud.
> 
> When I was working we would provide coffees and sometimes lunches for our suppliers. We'd not charge them for this. Why would a bit of electric be an issue?



These places aren’t shops/cafes that are open to the general public, I’m referring to factories and manufacturing plants, you are getting nothing from them, yet they still get visitors


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## DRM (16 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It'd be a short sighted company that wouldn't put a charger in - especially if you sell things or don't want to look like a stick in the mud.
> 
> When I was working we would provide coffees and sometimes lunches for our suppliers. We'd not charge them for this. Why would a bit of electric be an issue?



Most work places don’t even have a canteen these days, the chargers are for company vehicles only, those run by management or directors, no one else , not staff let alone visitors, it’s an attitude that will get worse as more EV’s are in use


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> So what do you do, stand around like one of Burton's?



Longest charging I've done is 40 mins. I wander to the loos, stroll back, play on internet for a little while. Hell I might push the boat out and get a black tea or coffee. 

My Tesla has lifetime free supercharging so I can afford to splash out on refreshments


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## cougie uk (16 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> These places aren’t shops/cafes that are open to the general public, I’m referring to factories and manufacturing plants, you are getting nothing from them, yet they still get visitors



I was talking about a very large group of factories in my example.


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## midlife (16 Jul 2022)

Trying to think if there are any at my hospital, don't remember seeing any but might be at the back of a car park somewhere. There are three at the RVI multi story in Newcastle where I park. 

Car parking there has gone from £7.20 for 5 hours to £18 for 5 hours. I wonder if they are thinking of charging less for EV?


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## Milzy (16 Jul 2022)

Richard Hamster Hammond has basically said you need to be doing mass above average mileage in an EV for 10 years to offset the overall carbon footprint. Yet he has just bought a top of the range Merc E.V costing more than some houses.


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## icowden (16 Jul 2022)

For the concerned, here is what BP is doing:
https://www.bp.com/en/global/corpor...magining-energy/electric-vehicles-update.html

and Shell
https://www.shell.co.uk/a-cleaner-energy-future/cleaner-transport/electric-mobility/ev-hub.html


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## classic33 (16 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Two points of order.
> 
> The Tesla X does not have gull wing doors, it has falcon wing doors.
> The Texla X and S are the most intelligent cars that money can buy. They have two AI chips which independently assess traffic and danger before combining their knowledge to choose the most appropriate action.


Involved in nearly 70% of crashes in vehicles with advanced driver-assistance systems.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/06/15/tesla-autopilot-crashes/


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> Involved in nearly 70% of crashes in vehicles with advanced driver-assistance systems.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/06/15/tesla-autopilot-crashes/



That's because Tesla are way out in front of vehicles on the road with advanced safety features compared to anyone else. 

Tesla safety record is better with safety systems engaged.

As one safety engineer phrased. 

Autonomous vehicles don't need to be perfect, just better than Humans driving


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> Richard Hamster Hammond has basically said you need to be doing mass above average mileage in an EV for 10 years to offset the overall carbon footprint. Yet he has just bought a top of the range Merc E.V costing more than some houses.



He is talktout of his arse. He doesn't have a clue, just headline clickbait comments. There is more to running an EV. For me no emissions and significant cheaper to run are right up there


----------



## classic33 (16 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That's because Tesla are way out in front of vehicles on the road with advanced safety features compared to anyone else.
> 
> Tesla safety record is better with safety systems engaged.
> 
> ...


If their safety systems are better, why are they involved in more incidents. 

They are not the only EV manufacturer in the US.


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## Alex321 (16 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> Most work places don’t even have a canteen these days, the chargers are for company vehicles only, those run by management or directors, no one else , not staff let alone visitors, it’s an attitude that will get worse as more EV’s are in use



IMO it is an "attitude" that is almost certain to get so much better it will disappear. I have no idea why you think it likely to get worse.

At the moment the charging points are not yet commonplace, and the cars are so expensive that not many outside management can afford them. So that attitude isn't really a problem. As EVs become the norm, and many more people will be looking to charge up, provision of charging points will become expected for all staff allowed to use the company car park - though I expect there will be a fee to be allowed to use them.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jul 2022)

classic33 said:


> If their safety systems are better, why are they involved in more incidents.
> 
> They are not the only EV manufacturer in the US.


70% of vehicles with advanced drivers aids. Tesla have far more vehicles of this type compared to other manufacturers, so will have more incidents compared to those with fewer vehicles. The numbers were only in the hundreds. Tesla must have hundreds of thousands of cars on the road in the USA. 

Edit I believe the numbers of Tesla in the USA is around 300,000 in 2021.


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## Alex321 (16 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> 70% of vehicles with advanced drivers aids. Tesla have far more vehicles of this type compared to other manufacturers, so will have more incidents compared to those with fewer vehicles. The numbers were only in the hundreds. Tesla must have hundreds of thousands of cars on the road in the USA



Going by the number I see day to day, they probably have hundreds of thousands in the UK.


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## classic33 (16 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> 70% of vehicles with advanced drivers aids. Tesla have far more vehicles of this type compared to other manufacturers, so will have more incidents compared to those with fewer vehicles. The numbers were only in the hundreds. Tesla must have hundreds of thousands of cars on the road in the USA


Still more than the rest combined though. For the same type of incident(s).


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## Jenkins (17 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> He is talktout of his arse. He doesn't have a clue, just headline clickbait comments. There is more to running an EV. For me no emissions and significant cheaper to run are right up there


Points of order: No emissions while in use and very much more expensive to buy.


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## gzoom (17 Jul 2022)

What else is there to say about EVs....


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## CXRAndy (17 Jul 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Points of order: No emissions while in use and very much more expensive to buy.



I've already explained how I made our Nissan Leaf effectively cost only £9K to buy with the running cost savings. The original forecourt price was mid twenties £26k


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## gbb (17 Jul 2022)

Theres no doubt EVs can be made really cheap to run in some peoples circumstances, if you have solar panels and the possibility to charge at home..which inevitably means you have to have your own drive.
I live in an average estate, many many people here cant even park next to the house, Peterboroughs estate are mostly that way. Most people cant afford solar panels, according to recent statistics, most people (80%) havnt even got £500 in savings which illustrates the dire situation most people are in, i could buy solar panels tomorrow, cash, but i still couldnt charge a car without paying more to do so.
I can see a situation where say a part of a supermarket carpark could be taken over by rental EVs, walk there, take a car, return it later and pay, it may be a good option for irregular users but i dont feel confident for the future of most peoples affordable car ownership.



Alex321 said:


> IMO it is an "attitude" that is almost certain to get so much better it will disappear. I have no idea why you think it likely to get worse.
> 
> At the moment the charging points are not yet commonplace, and the cars are so expensive that not many outside management can afford them. So that attitude isn't really a problem. As EVs become the norm, and many more people will be looking to charge up, provision of charging points will become expected for all staff allowed to use the company car park - though I expect there will be a fee to be allowed to use them.



TBF our company which has in the last 5 years spent possibly £100 million in new factories is currently coming up to a bit of speed with EVs and solar panels. Its spending in excess of £1 million in our factory alone installing solar panels and more charge points...but the driver for the panels is energy cost saving, not charging EVs . The costs are very very considerable, if it rolled out more and more charge points (we currenly have only 4 chargers with maybe 300 parking spaces, those considerable costs just keep rising.
Those costs in industry alone will be passed on somehow...


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## midlife (17 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I've already explained how I made our Nissan Leaf effectively cost only £9K to buy with the running cost savings. The original forecourt price was mid twenties £26k



I think I missed the post where I can buy a £26k car for £9k


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## icowden (17 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> I think I missed the post where I can buy a £26k car for £9k


There wasn't one. There was a post which you misunderstood.

Allow me to explain. When @crxandy said his £26k leaf effectively cost £9k what he mean was that the other £17k was what he would have spent on running costs such as petrol / diesel / tyres / brakes / servicing / ULEZ / congestion charges etc if he had purchased an ICE car.

Perhaps an analogy would help. You can buy an inkjet printer for £50 but the ink costs £100 a set. There was a time when you could buy a printer for £400 but the ink was £10 a set. So the cost is up front rather than ongoing. The inkjet seems cheap but you have spent more than it would have cost to buy the more expensive printer after you have used up 5 sets of ink. You then start to make substantial savings over the cheap printer if you purchased the more expensive printer.


----------



## Gillstay (17 Jul 2022)

Just used a Makita cordless hedge cutter. Fantastic, so much better than petrol. Instant start, no fume breathing and very powerful.
Roll on the future . Soon cars will be a just as great leap forward as well.


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## Chislenko (17 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> There wasn't one. There was a post which you misunderstood.
> 
> Allow me to explain. When @crxandy said his £26k leaf effectively cost £9k what he mean was that the other £17k was what he would have spent on running costs such as petrol / diesel / tyres / brakes / servicing / ULEZ / congestion charges etc if he had purchased an ICE car.
> 
> Perhaps an analogy would help. You can buy an inkjet printer for £50 but the ink costs £100 a set. There was a time when you could buy a printer for £400 but the ink was £10 a set. So the cost is up front rather than ongoing. The inkjet seems cheap but you have spent more than it would have cost to buy the more expensive printer after you have used up 5 sets of ink. You then start to make substantial savings over the cheap printer if you purchased the more expensive printer.



I'm even more confused now, apparently EV's don't have brakes and tyres!!


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## CXRAndy (17 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I'm even more confused now, apparently EV's don't have brakes and tyres!!



Regarding brakes on EVs. I hardly ever use them, the regen is so good at dealing with traffic flow speed fluctuations. Coming upto junctions too, I just lift off regen kicks in, and I feather the throttle to arrive without touching the brakes. I had to take a wheel off the wife's Tesla this week for a nail had got in it. The brakes pads look new, hardly any wear. The discs had no lip, on the outer edge-clear indicator on very little wear.






Re tyres. I would say that the rate of wear is no worse than any other car I have ever owned. 

To say mileage is nearly 35k miles


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## cougie uk (17 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I'm even more confused now, apparently EV's don't have brakes and tyres!!



You need to drive one. You hardly brake at all as the motor brakes and regenerates electric for you. 
.
Sadly you still need tyres but every car does.


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## CXRAndy (17 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I'm even more confused now, apparently EV's don't have brakes and tyres!!





cougie uk said:


> You need to drive one.



I very much doubt that would happen. The Neo Luddite is strong in this one😁


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## CXRAndy (17 Jul 2022)

Even my neighbour who was a sceptic re EVs until I took him out. He was blown away by the performance, regen and quietness. 

He even accepts our Nissan Leaf will pretty much out accelerate most Ice vehicles of 2.5litre or less.


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## midlife (17 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> There wasn't one. There was a post which you misunderstood.
> 
> Allow me to explain. When @crxandy said his £26k leaf effectively cost £9k what he mean was that the other £17k was what he would have spent on running costs such as petrol / diesel / tyres / brakes / servicing / ULEZ / congestion charges etc if he had purchased an ICE car.
> 
> Perhaps an analogy would help. You can buy an inkjet printer for £50 but the ink costs £100 a set. There was a time when you could buy a printer for £400 but the ink was £10 a set. So the cost is up front rather than ongoing. The inkjet seems cheap but you have spent more than it would have cost to buy the more expensive printer after you have used up 5 sets of ink. You then start to make substantial savings over the cheap printer if you purchased the more expensive printer.


Didn't misunderstand the post. There was a post that said EVs are expensive to buy and the reply was that they are not expensive to buy and that the effective cost was £9k. 

It still means that the cost to take it off the forecourt was £25k so not cheap as chips to buy....


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## cougie uk (17 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Even my neighbour who was a sceptic re EVs until I took him out. He was blown away by the performance, regen and quietness.
> 
> He even accepts our Nissan Leaf will pretty much out accelerate most Ice vehicles of 2.5litre or less.



I never take mine out of eco. 
The acceleration is too fast for my liking ! I'm definitely no boy racer.


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## CXRAndy (17 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I never take mine out of eco.
> The acceleration is too fast for my liking ! I'm definitely no boy racer.



I generally use eco, but it's useful to have instant extra punch.


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## icowden (17 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I'm even more confused now, apparently EV's don't have brakes and tyres!!


They have them but they last much longer. As others have pointed out - regenerative braking means you hardly use the brake pads, and because EV tyres are engineered for the weight of EVs they tend to be much more durable and EVs have much better traction control.


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## Jenkins (17 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I've already explained how I made our Nissan Leaf effectively cost only £9K to buy with the running cost savings. The original forecourt price was mid twenties £26k


Your original comment was "no emissions and significant cheaper to run", nothing about offsetting that against the original purchase price - I will agree that once purchased they are cheaper to run, it's that original purchase price that is the barrier to most private buyers.

To put your figures into perspective, I've owned my current car (a Mazda 6 Estate 2.2litre diesel) for just over 6 years. In that time it's done around 45,000 miles at around 50mpg so using around 900 gallons of diesel. I don't know the exact average price per gallon over the 6 years but, as it was well below £1.40 per litre up to September last year (info) I'll use the £1.40 mark = £6.36 per gallon which means that I've used approximately £5725 of diesel in 6 years. Add in aroud £3000 for 6 x £500 MOT/services and 6 x £130 VED payments to give a total of £9500 of in use costs. Add that to the £18,000 purchase cost of the car and it's set me back a total of £27,500 - just £1500 more that the £26,000 of your car *alone *without the installation costs of the charger and electric costs (another £5000?).


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## Jenkins (17 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> There wasn't one. There was a post which you misunderstood.
> 
> Allow me to explain. When @crxandy said his £26k leaf effectively cost £9k what he mean was that the other £17k was what he would have spent on running costs such as petrol / diesel / tyres / brakes / servicing / ULEZ / congestion charges etc if he had purchased an ICE car.
> 
> Perhaps an analogy would help. You can buy an inkjet printer for £50 but the ink costs £100 a set. There was a time when you could buy a printer for £400 but the ink was £10 a set. So the cost is up front rather than ongoing. The inkjet seems cheap but you have spent more than it would have cost to buy the more expensive printer after you have used up 5 sets of ink. You then start to make substantial savings over the cheap printer if you purchased the more expensive printer.


Where do you get the £17,000 from - see my figures above which exclude tyres & brakes which are consumables on ALL cars, but includes servicing as I don't know how much/often electric vehicles need doing. They'll still need to be MOT'd.


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## CXRAndy (18 Jul 2022)

I was comparing the savings compared to running an petrol car of similar size with around 35 mpg. 

We are doing hell of a lot of miles. Easily in excess 100k over 3-4 years. 

The savings in fuel costs compared to petrol alone were calculated. Others costs apart from 4 tyres are zero, no Mot(<3yr), no VED, servicing costs zero, free for 3 years. No mechanical issues at all

The charger was free too including installation. Electric costs were £2k
Compared to fuelling a petrol car at over £20k. I've rounded because I'm not working it out again 

Obviously fuel prices have gone up, so has electric. We are now going solar to run our property and vehicles. Again costs are all up front, but huge savings ongoing


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## gbb (18 Jul 2022)

I make no bones about my reservations re EVs for the masses (based on my personal location, access to electric etc) but i was prompted to look at second hand EV prices.
TBF, you can buy a 2012/2013 Leaf for instance with say 40k miles on it, for around £6 or £7k Thats actually not bad and affordable for many....but, i still am nowhere near being able to charge one from my house...or even anywhere to leave it overnight charging locally (tell a lie, there's a Costa nearby with chargepoints, just one or two though) 
It states 30 amp DC charging, i assume it can still use 240v 13 amp power if people wanted to just charge it slow overnight. Were i to buy one, i'd want to make the most of cheap overnight charging.
Some are contract batteries, £48 per month but replaced once the capacity drops below 70% iirc. Or you take your chance and accept lower achievable mileage with whatever battery condition happens to be on the particular one you buy secondhand. 

I'd almost certainly buy one for commuting, what could be better but then i'd almost certainly have to compromise when carrying three kids and two adults, which i often do. No easy answers for many many people


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## fossyant (18 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> I'd almost certainly buy one for commuting, what could be better but then i'd almost certainly have to compromise



That's when you use a bike !

I can't justify an electric car, we just don't do enough miles to make any economic sense ! Wife commutes one day a week, me 2-3 days, but via bike.


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## icowden (18 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> I'd almost certainly buy one for commuting, what could be better but then i'd almost certainly have to compromise when carrying three kids and two adults, which i often do. No easy answers for many many people


I think all of your points are good ones. You can charge from a normal 240v socket, but it is slow, and the larger family cars are still very expensive up front. There are definitely improvements to be made. Thinks like lamp-post chargers will help, as will the growing second hand car market as time goes on. The easiest way of improving take up would still be to get someone vaguely competent in the job of Prime Minister. You boost take up by making EVs cheaper (subsidy) and ICE more expensive (to pay for the subsidy).

Those of us with EVs (or about to get EVs) on this post I think recognise that they are in a somewhat lucky position to be able to afford one at this stage. I'd really like the £29,000 Tesla to make it over to the UK as I think that starts to make them affordable for a lot of people. That said, you can get a Mazda MX-30 for 3 grand down and then £244 a month on a lease. SImilar price for the Nissan Leaf. Even the Vauxhall Corsa-e is 4k down £300 a month on a lease. ALl of those would be within the reach of my retired in laws who have just changed their car for a Toyota Corolla.


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## gbb (18 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> That's when you use a bike !
> 
> I can't justify an electric car, we just don't do enough miles to make any economic sense ! Wife commutes one day a week, me 2-3 days, but via bike.



Been there done that, sadly health issues make 15 miles each way commuting out of the question. Hips and knees just wouldnt take it.


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Those of us with EVs (or about to get EVs) on this post I think recognise that they are in a somewhat lucky position to be able to afford one at this stage. I



It doesn't come across that way on this thread at all to me...mostly it seems like bragging and belittling of those who do not have an EV...


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## Electric_Andy (18 Jul 2022)

I'm not sure it comes across as bragging, to me anyway. It is a fact though that you can't really save money and help save the planet unless you can afford the intitial outlay for an EV. That is, if you believe they are greener than ICE vehicles, which is still up for debate


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## mistyoptic (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> It doesn't come across that way on this thread at all to me...mostly it seems like bragging and belittling of those who do not have an EV...


Yeah. Sometimes with overtones of this


View: https://youtu.be/U8Kum8OUTuk


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I'm not sure it comes across as bragging, to me anyway. It is a fact though that you can't really save money and help save the planet unless you can afford the intitial outlay for an EV. That is, if you believe they are greener than ICE vehicles, which is still up for debate


Constantly posting photos of your 80k car definitely comes across that way…


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## Electric_Andy (18 Jul 2022)

It's a bit like Microwaves or any other new technology from yesteryear; people rave about them becasue it saves time/money/effort but us average earners have to wait years until the price comes down. But to those who can afford them, I'm happy for them and wish them all the best


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## fossyant (18 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> Been there done that, sadly health issues make 15 miles each way commuting out of the question. Hips and knees just wouldnt take it.



WD40 and a splashing of titanium joints and you'll be reet !


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> It's a bit like Microwaves or any other new technology from yesteryear; people rave about them becasue it saves time/money/effort but us average earners have to wait years until the price comes down. But to those who can afford them, I'm happy for them and wish them all the best



Gawd please don't start posting pictures of your high-end microwave 

Although it's probably better looking than a Tesla with stupid doors


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## Electric_Andy (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Gawd please don't start posting pictures of your high-end microwave


Haha, it's only a cheapy but does the job and only has one dial for power and one for time. It is a fetching gloss black though


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## CXRAndy (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Constantly posting photos of your 80k car definitely comes across that way…





vickster said:


> Gawd please don't start posting pictures of your high-end microwave
> 
> Although it's probably better looking than a Tesla with stupid doors



Then there are the postings with an ever so over the top, sniping envy tone. 

If someone wants to post photos of their pride and joy, good for them. 

Plenty of threads for ICE vehicles.


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## Alex321 (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> It doesn't come across that way on this thread at all to me...mostly it seems like bragging and belittling of those who do not have an EV...



I haven't seen any belittling of those who don't have an EV (and I am one of those who don't). Bragging, maybe one or two, but not most of them I think.


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## cougie uk (18 Jul 2022)

One plus of the EVs are that you could go and sit in them on the drive with the aircon running if it does get too hot in the house.
I'm planning on going to the cinema tomorrow though to take advantage of their aircon in the heat.


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Then there are the postings with an ever so over the top, sniping envy tone.
> 
> If someone wants to post photos of their pride and joy, good for them.
> 
> Plenty of threads for ICE vehicles.



This isn’t a post a picture of your Tesla thread though 

Not envious at all either..,


----------



## icowden (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> This isn’t a post a picture of your Tesla thread though


True, but I do love to see a Tesla in the wild, flapping it's wings as it soars to freedom..


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I haven't seen any belittling of those who don't have an EV (and I am one of those who don't). Bragging, maybe one or two, but not most of them I think.



Do you not think accusing people of not caring about the environment because they drive an ICE car rather than an EV because they can’t /won’t spend say £25k+ or £400 a month on a lease (or aren’t in a position to have an EV car) is belittling?


----------



## cougie uk (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Do you not think accusing people of not caring about the environment because they drive an ICE car rather than an EV because they can’t /won’t spend say £25k+ or £400 a month on a lease (or aren’t in a position to have an EV car) is belittling?



Mine was two years old and 17k. I'm not rich but I do understand not everyone can even afford to run a banger.


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Mine was two years old and 17k. I'm not rich but I do understand not everyone can even afford to run a banger.



It wasn’t you quoting ‘cheap’  lease prices


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## roubaixtuesday (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> It doesn't come across that way on this thread at all to me...mostly it seems like bragging and belittling of those who do not have an EV...



I think there are huge problems with EVs, particularly in enabling a motor vehicle dependent society with all the problems that entails. 

But the thread comes across to me as anti-EV posters making arguments not based on facts. 

Just because EVs are better from a resource perspective that ICE cars - and all the evidence shows that they are - doesn't mean they're actually a good thing. At least not to prioritise over more important modes of transport. Like cycling.


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## Alex321 (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Do you not think accusing people of not caring about the environment because they drive an ICE car rather than an EV because they can’t /won’t spend say £25k+ or £400 a month on a lease (or aren’t in a position to have an EV car) is belittling?



I must have missed that post (and I'm not going to go back thriugh 1800+ posts to look for it now).


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## ClichéGuevara (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Do you not think accusing people of not caring about the environment because they drive an ICE car rather than an EV because they can’t /won’t spend say £25k+ or £400 a month on a lease (or aren’t in a position to have an EV car) is belittling?



I think the Uyghurs in Xinjiang may have a slightly interesting view of the impact of EV's.


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## cougie uk (18 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I think there are huge problems with EVs, particularly in enabling a motor vehicle dependent society with all the problems that entails.
> 
> But the thread comes across to me as anti-EV posters making arguments not based on facts.
> 
> Just because EVs are better from a resource perspective that ICE cars - and all the evidence shows that they are - doesn't mean they're actually a good thing. At least not to prioritise over more important modes of transport. Like cycling.



Quite. I walk or cycle most places and I'd love to live in Denmark or the Netherlands where cycling is more widespread. There's some roads round here I won't ride and I've been riding for decades. No wonder people are put off.


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## DRM (18 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> I make no bones about my reservations re EVs for the masses (based on my personal location, access to electric etc) but i was prompted to look at second hand EV prices.
> TBF, you can buy a 2012/2013 Leaf for instance with say 40k miles on it, for around £6 or £7k Thats actually not bad and affordable for many....but, i still am nowhere near being able to charge one from my house...or even anywhere to leave it overnight charging locally (tell a lie, there's a Costa nearby with chargepoints, just one or two though)
> It states 30 amp DC charging, i assume it can still use 240v 13 amp power if people wanted to just charge it slow overnight. Were i to buy one, i'd want to make the most of cheap overnight charging.
> Some are contract batteries, £48 per month but replaced once the capacity drops below 70% iirc. Or you take your chance and accept lower achievable mileage with whatever battery condition happens to be on the particular one you buy secondhand.
> ...



The 30 Amp DC bit of the charger refers to the output, the input will still be 230v AC, with a stated current draw in the spec for the power supply into the charger, for a car it’s going to be a step up charger, ie 240v AC input with 400 to 600 volt DC out put depending what voltage the battery in the car is, different cars have different size batteries in them, the ones I deal with at work at 240v AC input, with either 24, 48, 72 or 80 Volt DC output, so they are a step down charger


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## roubaixtuesday (18 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think the Uyghurs in Xinjiang may have a slightly interesting view of the impact of EV's.



Thanks, not nearly enough vacuous moral posturing on this thread yet


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## FishFright (18 Jul 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> It's a bit like Microwaves or any other new technology from yesteryear; people rave about them becasue it saves time/money/effort but us average earners have to wait years until the price comes down. But to those who can afford them, I'm happy for them and wish them all the best



One of the downsides of this place is the amount of ire pilled on to anyone who spends "too much money" . Look at every thread about DI2 if you want example outside of this one.


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## CXRAndy (18 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> One of the downsides of this place is the amount of ire pilled on to anyone who spends "too much money" . Look at every thread about DI2 if you want example outside of this one.



oh dear, nearly all my bikes I got with or upgraded to Di2


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## gzoom (18 Jul 2022)

@vickster 

Just for you, how many Teslas can you spot 







For balance here is another EV brands...






....finally we should meet up at this place, I'll be in my EV .


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## CXRAndy (18 Jul 2022)

gbb said:


> TBF, you can buy a 2012/2013 Leaf for instance with say 40k miles on it, for around £6 or £7k



Only a couple of years ago, you could pick up an early Leaf for literally peanuts. People shunned them, but as a local commuter they're perfect.


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## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> @vickster
> 
> Just for you, how many Teslas can you spot
> 
> ...



Here’s one just for you, reckon it’ll match your eyes


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## gzoom (18 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Here’s one just for you, reckon it’ll match your eyes



Pink isn't my colour, see you tomorrow at the top of Trollstigen to have a friendly meet up? I'll be there around 7am


----------



## vickster (18 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> Pink isn't my colour, see you tomorrow at the top of Trollstigen to have a friendly meet up? I'll be there around 7am



Huh


----------



## ClichéGuevara (18 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Thanks, not nearly enough vacuous moral posturing on this thread yet



I'm sure those people and others like them appreciate your virtuous position.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (18 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'm sure those people and others like them appreciate your virtuous position.



That's the spirit. Empty posturing is where the cool kids are at in the blazing summer of '23


----------



## ClichéGuevara (18 Jul 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> That's the spirit. Empty posturing is where the cool kids are at in the blazing summer of '23



As long as you're alright and feel good about yourself, that's the main.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (18 Jul 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> As long as you're alright and feel good about yourself, that's the main.



Well said, and very pleased you're so satisfied with yourself. Good on you.


----------



## cougie uk (18 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> @vickster
> 
> Just for you, how many Teslas can you spot
> 
> ...



What the heck is that monstrosity whose owner can't park ? Not even it's mother could love that surely?


----------



## icowden (18 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What the heck is that monstrosity whose owner can't park ? Not even it's mother could love that surely?


Well... {takes deerstalker off]...

That plate is in Norway. A quick search of the Norweigian vehicle register reveals that it is the
FAW EHS9 or Hongqi EHS9. Costs £50,000 to £63,000 (in Norway - £75k to £92k elsewhere). That one is pretty much brand new having been registered in April 2022.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hongqi_E-HS9


----------



## Chislenko (18 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> What the heck is that monstrosity whose owner can't park ? Not even it's mother could love that surely?



Looks like a poor man's Bentley copy, does 300 mile on a charge, allegedly!


----------



## Gillstay (18 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Looks like a poor man's Bentley copy, does 300 mile on a charge, allegedly!



I guess if it costs upward of 50k its going to be quite correct. Would not want to be pissing customers off.


----------



## Chislenko (18 Jul 2022)

I see Audi have entered an electric vehicle in the Paris - Dakar rally.

Unfortunately due to the distance of each stage it can't complete a stage.

However, they have overcome this by going back to old technology whereby they have a petrol engine fitted to the car running all the time and recharging the batteries.

Apparently though, although quite low on emissions this is not an acceptable solution for governments.


----------



## Jenkins (18 Jul 2022)

That's roughly the same size as the latest model long wheelbase Range Rover and slightly heavier!


----------



## Jenkins (18 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I see Audi have entered an electric vehicle in the Paris - Dakar rally.
> 
> Unfortunately due to the distance of each stage it can't complete a stage.
> 
> ...



Same as GM did with the Chevrolet Volt/Vauxhall Ampera of about 10 years ago.


----------



## Chislenko (18 Jul 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Same as GM did with the Chevrolet Volt/Vauxhall Ampera of about 10 years ago.



Yes, they are the cars they have apparently modelled this on, but the technology is not acceptable apparently, even if it is more practical, not having to stop to charge.


----------



## Jenkins (18 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Yes, they are the cars they have apparently modelled this on, but the technology is not acceptable apparently, even if it is more practical, not having to stop to charge.



And, if I remember correctcly, Audi were also adding to their environmentally freindly credentials by recycling their old 2 litre DTM engines to do the battery charging for the Dakar earlier this year


----------



## Chislenko (18 Jul 2022)

Jenkins said:


> And, if I remember correctcly, Audi were also adding to their environmentally freindly credentials by recycling their old 2 litre DTM engines to do the battery charging for the Dakar earlier this year



So, is the morale of the story, if you want to go electric get one with a petrol engine to charge it 😊


----------



## DRM (19 Jul 2022)

https://levc.com/technology/ecity-technology/
These vans use the same principle, 64 miles battery range, with a 1.5 litre petrol engine to charge the battery, giving 319 miles range, they call it a range extender, marketing BS for an on board generator
https://levc.com/technology/ecity-technology/
The Taxi appears to have the option of a petrol or diesel generator


----------



## icowden (19 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> they call it a range extender, marketing BS for an on board generator


Whereas everyone else calls it pointless - hence the marketing shoot about "eliminate range anxiety". How about - get a vehicle suitable for you and change your mindset?

It's like these people have never worried that they will run out of petrol before they got to a petrol station.


----------



## icowden (19 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Yes, they are the cars they have apparently modelled this on, but the technology is not acceptable apparently, even if it is more practical, not having to stop to charge.


Because it is still emitting gasses and messing up the planet - the one that is currently cooking.


----------



## CXRAndy (19 Jul 2022)

DRM said:


> https://levc.com/technology/ecity-technology/
> These vans use the same principle, 64 miles battery range, with a 1.5 litre petrol engine to charge the battery, giving 319 miles range, they call it a range extender, marketing BS for an on board generator
> https://levc.com/technology/ecity-technology/
> The Taxi appears to have the option of a petrol or diesel generator



Hybrid-bag of crap re emissions


----------



## figbat (19 Jul 2022)

Range extenders are nothing new - the BMW i3 offered this years ago - and RE cars are generally classified as hybrids, although the most extreme form of hybrid, given that the engine can’t drive the wheels. Not a pure BEV and not zero emissions, so not qualified for entry to ZE zones (ie Oxford).


----------



## icowden (19 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Hybrid-bag of crap re emissions



My favourite bit is this about the LEVC TX (electric taxi):-



> Our battery has been chosen because it is an appropriate size to cover most taxi driver’s daily usage. Bigger batteries are required in high-performance passenger vehicles to ensure adequate real-world range is maintained when the power available is utilised. However, in a commercial vehicle, bigger batteries mean more cost and more weight, reducing the efficiency and running cost advantages of the electric taxi. TX is backed up by a petrol range-extender to reduce range-anxiety and provide greater usability and flexibility.


This is a £55,000 vehicle before options. My translation is "we wanted to try and make an e-taxi quickly and cheaply, but rather than partner with existing manufacturers we've screwed it up badly and ended up with a car that has 64 miles of range when new.. so we've bunged a diesel generator in the boot. "


----------



## CXRAndy (19 Jul 2022)

figbat said:


> Range extenders are nothing new - the BMW i3 offered this years ago - and RE cars are generally classified as hybrids, although the most extreme form of hybrid, given that the engine can’t drive the wheels. Not a pure BEV and not zero emissions, so not qualified for entry to ZE zones (ie Oxford).



Do they think people are fooled by calling it a range extender? Its a hybrid. Not quite as crap as a the self charging hybrids with less than 10 mile range, still crap


----------



## FishFright (19 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I see Audi have entered an electric vehicle in the Paris - Dakar rally.
> 
> Unfortunately due to the distance of each stage it can't complete a stage.
> 
> ...



Aren't you 12 months late ?


----------



## CXRAndy (20 Jul 2022)

Had my arm twisted to get this vehicle. Great fun and has already become favourite with the wife. New wheels and tyres for winter field work


----------



## cougie uk (21 Jul 2022)

Good article here. 

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/opinion/robert-llewellyn-my-petrol-car-hell/


----------



## midlife (21 Jul 2022)

Is it me or is the article above comparing a. £50k Tesla (plus the cost of home solar) against say a £17k Ford Fiesta ?


----------



## icowden (21 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> Is it me or is the article above comparing a. £50k Tesla (plus the cost of home solar) against say a £17k Ford Fiesta ?



It's comparing a family EV against a family ICE vehicle. We have discussed at length that there is a significant price discrepancy. If you purchased the Tesla in the US it would cost you £29,000. Does that make it better?

The fact is that the Tesla 3 is the lower end "affrordable" family Tesla (or the Y which is more of a family SUV). If you read the start, Bobby did say that he could have compared at a similar price bracket but that didn't seem fair. He also takes great pains to compare costs *without* the benefit of solar or even home charging.

Did you also find the Adam Kay article unfair and wonder why he's whinging about buying a poor quality EV and failing to do any preparation?
https://archive.ph/20220709172345/h...ticle/adam-kay-my-electric-car-hell-5jchf3sms


----------



## CXRAndy (21 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> Is it me or is the article above comparing a. £50k Tesla (plus the cost of home solar) against say a £17k Ford Fiesta ?


It's about running cost and emissions 
He was being fair by comparing an 'economical' petrol car against a Tesla. 

A fairer comparison if looking at performance the RS6 would be suitable. But for highlighting the running costs of an EV it would not be fair to use a gas guzzler Audi


----------



## cougie uk (21 Jul 2022)

midlife said:


> Is it me or is the article above comparing a. £50k Tesla (plus the cost of home solar) against say a £17k Ford Fiesta ?



It's you. He was going to use a car that compares in performance to the Tesla. 

"It’s nowhere near in terms of cost, though. The Tesla Model 3 starts at around £50,000 which is eye-wateringly expensive until you consider that the RRP of the Audi RS 6 Avant starts at £95,080."

In the end he decided to use a cheaper and not named car. 

FWIW my EV was 17k at two years old and fuel costs are 1/10 of the Fiesta.


----------



## Chislenko (21 Jul 2022)

I suppose a lot depends on the viewpoint of the person writing the article.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...les-are-a-risk-not-worth-assuming-193848.html


----------



## Electric_Andy (21 Jul 2022)

The article looks to be the same thing we have concluded in this thread. Basically if you are in a position to own an EV then it certianly makes sense. If you can charge it at home and/or fit solar panels then you are laughing. But few people I know are, so have to put up with gas guzzlers


----------



## fossyant (21 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> It's you. He was going to use a car that compares in performance to the Tesla.
> 
> "It’s nowhere near in terms of cost, though. The Tesla Model 3 starts at around £50,000 which is eye-wateringly expensive until you consider that the RRP of the Audi RS 6 Avant starts at £95,080."
> 
> ...



At least the RS6 sounds incredible, rather than like a washing machine on spin !


----------



## mistyoptic (21 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Good article here.
> 
> https://www.driving.co.uk/news/opinion/robert-llewellyn-my-petrol-car-hell/


He could have chosen an automatic ICE vehicle, which would have removed one of his whinges. The article would have been more persuasive that way IMHO. Interesting article otherwise


----------



## CXRAndy (21 Jul 2022)

Small engines ICE have pretty poor autoboxes


----------



## MrGrumpy (21 Jul 2022)

mistyoptic said:


> He could have chosen an automatic ICE vehicle, which would have removed one of his whinges. The article would have been more persuasive that way IMHO. Interesting article otherwise



All these articles are utter bollocks, no matter what side of the divide you sit . I take the view that whomever is the author has some axe to grind or is being paid for a certain outcome.


----------



## gzoom (23 Jul 2022)

We are coming to the end of our Pan-european road trip to Norway inour EV. In the last 24hrs we've been to Oslo, Copenhagen, Hamburg, and tomorrow will be in Amsterdam. 

Our 5 years old EV, hasn't set a foot wrong, I enjoy cycling, but the personal freedom offered by a car is just unrivalled.

Honestly is there a more beautiful country in Europe?


----------



## wiggydiggy (23 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> We are coming to the end of our Pan-european road trip to Norway inour EV. In the last 24hrs we've been to Oslo, Copenhagen, Hamburg, and tomorrow will be in Amsterdam.
> 
> Our 5 years old EV, hasn't set a foot wrong, I enjoy cycling, but the personal freedom offered by a car is just unrivalled.
> 
> Honestly is there a more beautiful country in Europe?


 
Nothing an ICE couldn't do.


----------



## Alex321 (23 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Nothing an ICE couldn't do.



Has anybody suggested otherwise?

The *point* is that it HAS done as well as an ICE would have. In what looks like quite a demanding trip.


----------



## gzoom (24 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Nothing an ICE couldn't do.



Amazing isn't it, we have gone from seeing EVs as nothing but milk floats to now having to comment on combustion cars been able to 'match' what an EV can do on a 3000 mile road trip across Europe, including doing 170km/h+ on the Autobahn and climbing up some of the tallest passes in Norway .

Ofcourse for me one of the big incentives is fuel savings, yes it's not life changing amounts of money, am not sure anyone here would turn down free for fuel.


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Jul 2022)

MY MS has the same lifetime deal. We are into Germany next month.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Jul 2022)

Did you use free charging stations ?


----------



## icowden (24 Jul 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Did you use free charging stations ?


Back in the day before Tesla went mass market, Elon included lifetime free charging at Tesla superchargers - so yes @gzoom will have been able to use free charging.

If @gzoom had had to pay and only charged at Tesla superchargers, and the rate was 48p per kwh (current UK rate), he would have spent £502 on electricity.- so £133 less than petrol according to his estimate.

He was in Norway though for a large part of the journey, so the rate there is 22p per kwh - if he had only been in Norway that would reduce the cost to £230. Out of Norway, Denmark and Germany, Denmark is the most expensive at 30p per kwh which gives a total spend using tesla superchargers only of £313.80

It is likely however that @gzoom will have had access to a variety of charging. Some hotels will have free charging for guests, or if using AirB&B then probably included in tariff. Even if he was paying for electricity it is likely that it would have cost him less than half what it would have cost for Petrol.

The above is also an illustration of how countries with green incentives make owning an EV even more desirable.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Back in the day before Tesla went mass market, Elon included lifetime free charging at Tesla superchargers - so yes @gzoom will have been able to use free charging.
> 
> If @gzoom had had to pay and only charged at Tesla superchargers, and the rate was 48p per kwh (current UK rate), he would have spent £502 on electricity.- so £133 less than petrol according to his estimate.
> 
> ...



Thanks that’s made things clearer, just like comparing apples with apples .  Maybe we should all move to Norway ?! Utopia


----------



## classic33 (24 Jul 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Thanks that’s made things clearer, just like comparing apples with apples .  Maybe we should all move to Norway ?! Utopia


Charging may be free, for some Tesla owners, but they have charged for idle time since 2016. 
Park and charge, in a car park, but you're expected to move it once charged or pay them for parking in someone else's car park.

https://www.businessinsider.in/thel...at-charging-stations/articleshow/84018927.cms


----------



## Chislenko (24 Jul 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Thanks that’s made things clearer, just like comparing apples with apples .  Maybe we should all move to Norway ?! Utopia



Have you seen the price of beer in Norway!!

Went to Stavanger on a trip to watch my team play Viking a good 15 years back. One of our older supporters went into the bar and enquired the price. It was something rediculous like £6.00 a pint (Krona equivalent) back then. He then told the bar owner there was circa 100 of us and he would get all our custom if he did a discounted price. I think we got it for £4.00 a pint. I don't even pay that nowadays in UK.


----------



## wiggydiggy (24 Jul 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Has anybody suggested otherwise?
> 
> The *point* is that it HAS done as well as an ICE would have. In what looks like quite a demanding trip.



I missed that point, I just saw more 'I am considerably richer than you' posing.


----------



## icowden (24 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Have you seen the price of beer in Norway!!


Norway is very expensive for lots of things, Norway protect their farmers so milk and butter tends to be expensive. Anything that is imported has a high duty, so is expensive - particularly alcohol. Eating out is expensive as restaurants pay their staff very well. Beer is expensive due to taxes. The cheapest is around £6 rising to £8 or so in airports. So a bit like drinking in London...


----------



## gzoom (24 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I missed that point, I just saw more 'I am considerably richer than you' posing.



I have to say am not sure where you are getting this from?? Less than 20 years ago I owned nothing but a £500 Micra and the clothes on my back, 30 years ago I couldn't speak a word of English.....Is your issue that no one should strive to better themselves in life??

Even you do have an issue with me personally for some bizzar reason wanting to improve the quality of life of me and my family, am not sure why you think EVs are bad.


----------



## cougie uk (24 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I missed that point, I just saw more 'I am considerably richer than you' posing.



You sound bitter.


----------



## Gillstay (24 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I missed that point, I just saw more 'I am considerably richer than you' posing.



Oh, I just thought they were a better photographer !


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Have you seen the price of beer in Norway!!
> 
> Went to Stavanger on a trip to watch my team play Viking a good 15 years back. One of our older supporters went into the bar and enquired the price. It was something rediculous like £6.00 a pint (Krona equivalent) back then. He then told the bar owner there was circa 100 of us and he would get all our custom if he did a discounted price. I think we got it for £4.00 a pint. I don't even pay that nowadays in UK.



I know how expensive it is, I’ve been before . It’s swings and roundabouts . What they take from one hand you get in the other I suppose.


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> Norway is very expensive for lots of things, Norway protect their farmers so milk and butter tends to be expensive. Anything that is imported has a high duty, so is expensive - particularly alcohol. Eating out is expensive as restaurants pay their staff very well. Beer is expensive due to taxes. The cheapest is around £6 rising to £8 or so in airports. So a bit like drinking in London...



So As I asked earlier was there some free charging in that trip ? Surely not a 3000 mile trip that cost £22 in leccy ? If so then yes I’m rather taken aback !!


----------



## wiggydiggy (24 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> You sound bitter.



I prefer Stout.


----------



## wiggydiggy (24 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> I have to say am not sure where you are getting this from?? Less than 20 years ago I owned nothing but a £500 Micra and the clothes on my back, 30 years ago I couldn't speak a word of English.....Is your issue that no one should strive to better themselves in life??
> 
> Even you do have an issue with me personally for some bizzar reason wanting to improve the quality of life of me and my family, am not sure why you think EVs are


I'm sorry.

Nothing against you personally but this thread (to me) has a undertone from some that if you can afford an EV then you are entitled to look down on those that cannot.

I like your pictures, they remind me of Milford Sound in New Zealand.


----------



## icowden (24 Jul 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> So As I asked earlier was there some free charging in that trip ? Surely not a 3000 mile trip that cost £22 in leccy ? If so then yes I’m rather taken aback !!


Ye- @gzoom has free charging at any Tesla supercharger, the lucky blighter.


----------



## icowden (24 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> Nothing against you personally but this thread (to me) has a undertone from some that if you can afford an EV then you are entitled to look down on those that cannot.


I don't see that at all. I just see people showing the joys and benefits of EV ownership. Those that have one know that they are lucky to be able to afford one, but they are getting better and cheaper all the time.


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Jul 2022)

I'm was lucky when I got my nearly new Tesla, that free lifetime supercharger facility was included, that was late 2019


----------



## wiggydiggy (24 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> I don't see that at all. I just see people showing the joys and benefits of EV ownership. Those that have one know that they are lucky to be able to afford one, but they are getting better and cheaper all the time.



My view is that some EV owners are self righteous know alls.


----------



## Alex321 (25 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> My view is that some EV owners are self righteous know alls.



Of course. As are some in almost any situation. AFAIK, the proportion isn't particularly higher among EV owners, certainly it isn't among the few I know perosnally, and I haven't seen much evidence of it in this thread.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (25 Jul 2022)

127 pages of, now mostly circular, argument with the main thrust of the OP lost in the mists of time; maybe it's time for closing statements? 😁😁😁


----------



## FishFright (25 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> I missed that point, I just saw more 'I am considerably richer than you' posing.



Tough day ?


----------



## Electric_Andy (25 Jul 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> 127 pages of, now mostly circular, argument with the main thrust of the OP lost in the mists of time; maybe it's time for closing statements? 😁😁😁



Yes it's not really answering any new questions now. My closing statements are that yes, I think we are being forced to go EV (or no V at all) which is a good thing. We're also being forced (priced out) of unecessary jouneys which is also good. By the time the now new EVs are 5 yeras old and on the used market, hopefully affordable and hopefully still reliable in terms of battery longevity. The rich are the guinea pigs I suppose and the less well-off will follow suit when confidence has been gained.

I don't think anyone is bragging, at least not any more than on any other thread about new bikes, cars or hobbies.


----------



## FishFright (25 Jul 2022)

In answer to the title question yes we are being forced to go electric and it's a good thing. This of course means change and that's too scary for some but they will have to change too .

"But I don't want to change" isn't a reason it's an excuse.


----------



## wiggydiggy (25 Jul 2022)

FishFright said:


> Tough day ?



No.


----------



## FishFright (25 Jul 2022)

wiggydiggy said:


> No.



Is imagining things that aren't there part of a good day ?


----------



## CXRAndy (27 Jul 2022)

Today, my Tesla service experience. My car needed a few parts upgraded or replacing under warranty. 

I arranged the service via the phone app.

A series of messages and a few photos sent. Confirmed appointment with suspect spares ordered to be there on the day.

I dropped my car off- walked away from dealer. There is no need to talk to anyone, Tesla knows the car is there, they have full access in service mode. 

Messages throughout the service would appear regularly on the app any queries too. Then a final message car is ready. I returned got in car and drove away without any further communication with any Tesla personnel.

Easy peasy


----------



## SpokeyDokey (28 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Today, my Tesla service experience. My car needed a few parts upgraded or replacing under warranty.
> 
> I arranged the service via the phone app.
> 
> ...



Should appeal to green sociopaths. 😁


----------



## fossyant (28 Jul 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Today, my Tesla service experience. My car needed a few parts upgraded or replacing under warranty.
> 
> I arranged the service via the phone app.
> 
> ...



Or, bought a Nissan and it's not needed to see a garage for replacement bits !


----------



## All uphill (28 Jul 2022)

My opening and closing statement.

No, we are not being forced to go electric; it is possible for many, but not all, people to organise a lifestyle and home location that does not require a personally owned motorised vehicle at all. Train stations, ebikes, living in a 20 minute town, work near home, car share schemes can all be part of a car ownership free life, but it does require change, which some will find painful.


----------



## CXRAndy (28 Jul 2022)

All uphill said:


> but it does require change, which some will find painful



And extremely reluctant to change to a not so different way


----------



## gzoom (28 Jul 2022)

So 3 weeks, 4 countries, and 2800 mile road trip done in our 5 year old EV. We had 6 people on board + luggage for Norway, hit about 180km/hr before I bottled it on the Autobahn (family in the car), and one spent 5.5hrs going up and down the mountains.

Regardless of what you think of Elon Musk or Tesla, no one can deny the ability of EV to take you (or your entire family) any where you like. The newer much cheaper Model 3s have MORE range and FASTER charging speeds than our car, and ANY new EV on sale today can pretty much do what we did.

Life is short, and cars are there to provide personal freedom of movement no other forms of transport can do. At one stage on this the trip we were in Oslo on a Friday, Copenhagen on Saturday, and Amsterdam on Sunday, yes we all like pedal bikes but no other form of transport could have delivered our amazing road trip, regardless of fuel method.


----------



## cougie uk (28 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> So 3 weeks, 4 countries, and 2800 mile road trip done in our 5 year old EV. We had 6 people on board + luggage for Norway, hit about 180km/hr before I bottled it on the Autobahn (family in the car), and one spent 5.5hrs going up and down the mountains.
> 
> Regardless of what you think of Elon Musk or Tesla, no one can deny the ability of EV to take you (or your entire family) any where you like. The newer much cheaper Model 3s have MORE range and FASTER charging speeds than our car, and ANY new EV on sale today can pretty much do what we did.
> 
> ...



Stunning photos.


----------



## Chislenko (30 Jul 2022)

gzoom said:


> We had 6 people on board + luggage for Norway.



Must have been horrendous if somebody dropped one!


----------



## icowden (30 Jul 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Must have been horrendous if somebody dropped one!


@gzoom has a Tesla X.

The Tesla X (and S) has a bioweapon grade air filtration system that can clean the car air in two minutes.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/putting-tesla-hepa-filter-and-bioweapon-defense-mode-to-the-test


----------



## CXRAndy (30 Jul 2022)

The size of the airfilter on the model S and X is huge, like, nearly 3ft wide


----------



## fossyant (30 Jul 2022)

icowden said:


> @gzoom has a Tesla X.
> 
> The Tesla X (and S) has a bioweapon grade ait filtration system that can clean the car air in two minutes.
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/putting-tesla-hepa-filter-and-bioweapon-defense-mode-to-the-test



I've smelt farts that would defeat any bio-weapon filters. Not mine though, honest !


----------



## CXRAndy (30 Jul 2022)

fossyant said:


> I've smelt farts that would defeat any bio-weapon filters. Not mine though, honest !



They should try low carb diet 👍


----------



## Chislenko (30 Jul 2022)

To be fair I think we have a HEPA filter on our vacuum cleaner!


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Aug 2022)

Into Europe next week in the Model S. It will cost absolutely nothing to drive around Europe. Not a big trip maybe 1000miles.


----------



## TheDoctor (9 Aug 2022)

Spat deleted.
Let's keep it civil, please.


----------



## CXRAndy (12 Aug 2022)

Day 1 Ypres. Charged twice in the UK. Once at lunch when we got to Stansted services and Eurotunnel. Though I needed had bothered to get to Ypres. The hotel has charging, but don't need it to get into Germany today.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (12 Aug 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> Spat deleted.
> Let's keep it civil, please.



Too much gaslighting?


----------



## the_mikey (12 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> My opening and closing statement.
> 
> No, we are not being forced to go electric; it is possible for many, but not all, people to organise a lifestyle and home location that does not require a personally owned motorised vehicle at all. Train stations, ebikes, living in a 20 minute town, work near home, car share schemes can all be part of a car ownership free life, but it does require change, which some will find painful.



Absolutely this, I own a vehicle and I know the reason for owning that vehicle is not to get me around but simply to appease other people in my family, but I have it firmly in my sight to rid myself of the parasitic machine so I can get back to enjoying life and not doing dumb stuff to keep other people happy.


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## CXRAndy (12 Aug 2022)

Spotted this in a carpark


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## TheDoctor (12 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Spotted this in a carpark
> 
> View attachment 656922



Obvious photoshop is obvious


----------



## CXRAndy (12 Aug 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> Obvious photoshop is obvious



I was doing it whilst car was self driving


----------



## icowden (12 Aug 2022)

This is worth a read if you really want to understand Elon Musk's intentions with Tesla.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/09/elon-musk-reveals-tesla-master-plan-part-3/

Particularly parts one and two.


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## CXRAndy (12 Aug 2022)

Entered Germany now, came across a stretch of autobahn, so stretched the Tesla's legs @125mph, was effortless.


----------



## TheDoctor (12 Aug 2022)

I recently had a lowly 208 electric as a courtesy car.
Once I'd got used to it, did the obligatory standing start foot-to-the-floor in Sport mode.
OMFG.
It just kept accelerating! It pulled better than our old 150bhp tdi, and carried on pulling. No gear change, no let up. Highly impressive.


----------



## gzoom (12 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Entered Germany now, came across a stretch of autobahn, so stretched the Tesla's legs @125mph, was effortless.



.....and its a good thing too Tesla seem to have SCs every 50-60 miles along most of the Autobahn


----------



## gzoom (12 Aug 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> I recently had a lowly 208 electric as a courtesy car.
> Once I'd got used to it, did the obligatory standing start foot-to-the-floor in Sport mode.
> OMFG.
> It just kept accelerating! It pulled better than our old 150bhp tdi, and carried on pulling. No gear change, no let up. Highly impressive.



Imagine whats its like a 'ludicrous' Tesla. I was really excited at been given one a loan car, but after just one full throttle launch it felt like I gave my self concussion, spent the rest of the time with the car been worried that I would accidentally crash it into a bush/house/tree etc.


----------



## cougie uk (12 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> Imagine whats its like a 'ludicrous' Tesla. I was really excited at been given one a loan car, but after just one full throttle launch it felt like I gave my self concussion, spent the rest of the time with the car been worried that I would accidentally crash it into a bush/house/tree etc.



I don't even take my leaf out of eco mode. Too fast for my liking.


----------



## CXRAndy (13 Aug 2022)

Today's fossil fuel price near Cologne


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Today's fossil fuel price near Cologne
> 
> View attachment 657113



They've got to get the tax revenue lost from those wealthy enough to afford an EV back from somewhere.


----------



## youngoldbloke (13 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Today's fossil fuel price near Cologne
> 
> View attachment 657113



If that's euros it's equal to £1.59 here - 19p cheaper than my last fill!


----------



## CXRAndy (13 Aug 2022)

Yes Euros


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## CXRAndy (13 Aug 2022)

Elon has been paying my electric charges this trip


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Elon has been paying my electric charges this trip



Strictly speaking, all of those that can't afford an EV have been funding your trip, along with pensioners liable to freeze to death this winter when they can't afford the extra fuel costs.


----------



## midlife (13 Aug 2022)

Just filled up the Ka for the holiday near the Pendle Witch Trail. £1.61 litre and put in 40 quid which will do me.

Probably more than an EV in electric but I saved about £47000 buying the Ka and not a Tesla 3. Not as big or as flash but should get me there, pootle around for a week and get me back


----------



## cyberknight (13 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Just filled up the Ka for the holiday near the Pendle Witch Trail. £1.61 litre and put in 40 quid which will do me.
> 
> Probably more than an EV in electric but I saved about £47000 buying the Ka and not a Tesla 3. Not as big or as flash but should get me there, pootle around for a week and get me back



cheapest here is still 172.7


----------



## midlife (13 Aug 2022)

cyberknight said:


> cheapest here is still 172.7



Surprised me too, just our local garage, can't even remember the brand they sell. I wondered why it was busy. 

Had a word with the lady at the till and that is the price they have been told to sell it for. Cheaper than the supermarkets.

Edit. Checked and its BP


----------



## Phaeton (13 Aug 2022)

Found this quite interesting, 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpiH-Y-HOvE
okay it won't suit a lot of families, but it will suit a lot of city dwellers, TBF for 80% of the time we could live with it, I'm sure it won't be sub £20K by the time it gets to the UK if it ever does,


----------



## icowden (13 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Strictly speaking, all of those that can't afford an EV have been funding your trip, along with pensioners liable to freeze to death this winter when they can't afford the extra fuel costs.



Strictly speaking, that's nonsense. Tesla pay for the electricity they don't magic it up.


----------



## midlife (13 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Strictly speaking, that's nonsense. Tesla pay for the electricity they don't magic it up.



True, they don't magic it up. Comes out of the profits they make from doing things like selling cars........ I guess Tesla car owners have paid something towards it somewhere.


----------



## cougie uk (13 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Strictly speaking, all of those that can't afford an EV have been funding your trip, along with pensioners liable to freeze to death this winter when they can't afford the extra fuel costs.



Why would pensioners be paying for the costs of filling a Tesla. How do you figure that out ?

And let's gloss over the people who've died from pollution in cities from good old petrol and diesel engines going past their homes.


----------



## midlife (13 Aug 2022)

Just had a quick check, might not be totally correct but I guess Tesla make enough profit per vehicle to splash a bit of free electric about lol

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla...-reports-envious-profit-margins.596747.0.html


----------



## midlife (13 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Why would pensioners be paying for the costs of filling a Tesla. How do you figure that out ?
> 
> And let's gloss over the people who've died from pollution in cities from good old petrol and diesel engines going past their homes.



Have you never driven an ICE car?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (13 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Strictly speaking, that's nonsense. Tesla pay for the electricity they don't magic it up.



And do they donate the tax that's not being received from the fuel sales?


----------



## cougie uk (13 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Have you never driven an ICE car?



Of course I have. But very rarely in circumstances where I could get a train or bike or walk.


----------



## CXRAndy (13 Aug 2022)

Where we are staying, if it wasn't for the love of cycling, the locals would have died from pollution. Hardly any EVs.

All driving German diesels.


We decided to walk into the town across the fields from the farm we are staying at. We had a lovely meal , got pissed up, walk the local park, then remembered we had a 3.5 mile walk in 35°C heat back. I think we have notched up 8 miles. We should have used some form of EV. The take up of rental E scooters is big here. Same as Ypres. Doubt they would have coped with rough track's


----------



## Gunk (13 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That's because Tesla are way out in front of vehicles on the road with advanced safety features compared to anyone else.
> 
> Tesla safety record is better with safety systems engaged.
> 
> ...




Shame the build quality is so poor, the finish reminds of a 1980’s Hyundai


----------



## classic33 (13 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Strictly speaking, that's nonsense. Tesla pay for the electricity they don't magic it up.


So there's a few steps between where the electric is generated (quite possibly fossil fuel used for this) and the charging point. The point where the pollution is produced isn't the car itself, it's somewhere unseen.

The the part I can't get my head round. Just because the vehicle isn't the production point, it's a "clean vehicle".
Any one know what the "tipping point" will be. There'll come a point when the number of vehicles requiring charging points will be beyond the capacity of the grid. They've matched output to major events, in the past. What about the power cuts being talked about at present, for the start of next year. Will people stop charging their cars, or do the electric equivalent of a petrol shortage, drive round looking for a working, suitable, charging point?


----------



## CXRAndy (13 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> Shame the build quality is so poor, the finish reminds of a 1980’s Hyundai



That was in the early years back in 2014/5. Ever since the the model 3 quality is excellent. No worse than any other vehicle. 

Model Y is anticipated to be the as popular as the Toyota Corolla. Daughter and son will be ordering a Y for their next vehicles.


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## midlife (13 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That was in the early years back in 2014/5. Ever since the the model 3 quality is excellent. No worse than any other vehicle.
> 
> Model Y is anticipated to be the as popular as the Toyota Corolla. Daughter and son will be ordering a Y for their next vehicles.



Blimey 44 million Model Y times 57 plus grand each is a lot of pocket money for Musk


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## Gunk (13 Aug 2022)

I looked at a friend's Model 3, no where near as good as my BMW. They’ve got a long was to go to get anywhere the premium German brands.

look at the steering wheel looks like it’s been lifted from a 1990’s Astra. It may be a very competent electric car, but IMO It s just devoid of any character or soul. They’re the motoring equivalent of white goods. taken mainly as company cars because of the low BIK.


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## gzoom (13 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> It may be a very competent electric car, but IMO It s just devoid of any character or soul. They’re the motoring equivalent of white goods. taken mainly as company cars because of the low BIK.



I love when this come up ....

As one who has owned a car that is mentioned in the same sentence as McLaren F1, F40....






....the poster boy for the FF generation...






....and modified the life out of the first turbo charged inline 6 BMW for decades (N54)....






I feel I have some credibility when it comes to what gives a car 'soul', 'character' .

Guss what, our soon to be 7 year old EV betters every single of my previous cars interms of 'character', 'soul', what ever you want to call. Having just come back from a pan European road trip, there isn't another car I would swap our Tesla for, none at all.











As for build quality, here is what the interior and paint work of near 7 year old Tesla looks like. (I've given the link to the hires file if you want to examine in detail ).

Having owned a string over nice combustion cars, IMO your comments on 'white goods' motoring couldn't be further away from the truth for these cars.


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## CXRAndy (14 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> I looked at a friend's Model 3, no where near as good as my BMW. They’ve got a long was to go to get anywhere the premium German brands.
> 
> look at the steering wheel looks like it’s been lifted from a 1990’s Astra. It may be a very competent electric car, but IMO It s just devoid of any character or soul. They’re the motoring equivalent of white goods. taken mainly as company cars because of the low BIK.
> 
> View attachment 657176



That's it, it's just your opinion which is biased against EVs mainly Tesla.

The market doesn't agree with you, despite rising prices Tesla continue to grow with huge demand.

If you like German vehicles buy a Porsche taycan, Audi Etron or Merc EQ. You will pay far more, equivalent to model S .

The model 3 and Y offer everything the models above but for far less cost. If Tesla continue on their current sales growth. They will release a £25k EV, that will crush the lower end competition. But considering the Model 3 and Y are so popular, Tesla doesn't need to rush into a cheaper car


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## Gunk (14 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That's it, it's just your opinion which is biased against EVs mainly Tesla.
> 
> The market doesn't agree with you, despite rising prices Tesla continue to grow with huge demand.
> 
> ...



Isn’t everything an opinion? That’s what I was doing, expressing a personal opinion


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## CXRAndy (14 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> Isn’t everything an opinion? That’s what I was doing, expressing a personal opinion



I'm all for opinions, I was highlighting that your opinion seems at odds with the demand for Tesla vehicles. . 

Each to their own as they say


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## CXRAndy (14 Aug 2022)

Off to see a Schloss today. Very quiet at Tesla supercharger


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## figbat (14 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> I love when this come up ....
> 
> As one who has owned a car that is mentioned in the same sentence as McLaren F1, F40....
> 
> ...



Much as I am an EV convert and agree with much of what you write, in this case your own post has shown (to me) one example of the build quality challenges that Tesla face. Panel shut lines are a common measure of build quality and Tesla don’t seem to either care or be able to do it the same as traditional car makers. Many’s the time I have sat behind a Tesla and noticed the inconsistent shut lines around the boot. Your picture shows one too…




It’s not going to affect how the car works but just jumps out to me as wonky. But, as I said, maybe Tesla don’t care about traditional measures like this, if it makes no difference to performance or practicality or range or whatever. It’s perhaps another example of having to think about Teslas differently than ‘old-fashioned’ cars - focus on what is important rather than what is perceived to be important.


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## Cletus Van Damme (14 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> I love when this come up ....
> 
> As one who has owned a car that is mentioned in the same sentence as McLaren F1, F40....
> 
> ...



Love that DC2 Teg, my brother used to have a championship white one. Can see why they're stupid money now. Just the driving experience and connection to the road really that most modern cars simply don't have, not the ones I've driven anyway. Hardly any tech and a 90's Rover interior, lovely. Awesome suspension, gearbox and a screaming B18C out of the box.


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## FishFright (14 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> I looked at a friend's Model 3, no where near as good as my BMW. They’ve got a long was to go to get anywhere the premium German brands.
> 
> look at the steering wheel looks like it’s been lifted from a 1990’s Astra. It may be a very competent electric car, but IMO It s just devoid of any character or soul. They’re the motoring equivalent of white goods. taken mainly as company cars because of the low BIK.
> 
> View attachment 657176



BMW fit premium plastics to give an air of build quality.


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## gzoom (14 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> Panel shut lines are a common measure of build quality and Tesla don’t seem to either care or be able to do it the same as traditional car makers.



There are whole YouTube channels and websites dedicated people with measuring taped and calipers going around different Tesla cars on this .

But as you say they make zero difference to anything. Our Lexus has perfect shut lines and has all the other traditional hall marks of 'quality' you would associate with a Lexus , but its so DULL compared to our Tesla. 

We've bought new in 2015 (so 7.5 years old now), does 45 mpg, but we've do barely 5000 miles a year in it, versus well over 10k per year in the Tesla, and that says it all about which car we perfer to use as a family.






I normally don't do dumper stickers, but Norway really was exceptional and I need a bit of colour on our 'white goods' car .


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## gzoom (14 Aug 2022)

Cletus Van Damme said:


> Love that DC2 Teg



The DC2 is the only car I regert selling....it was also the car that nearly killed me, you had to drive it at 10/10 everywhere, which meant some stupid risk taking on my part when I was in my 20s.

The one I had came with no aircon, or even radio!!! I was the 8th owner in 5 years, and I sold it after just 9 months as it was my only car. Sitting in a traffic jam on the M25, in nearly 30 degree heat listening to headphones wasn't exactly 'fun'.

If my wife would allow, I would have another one as a weekend toy tomorrow. They do need alot work given their age these days.....and to be honest the pedal bike is a far more sensible way to push the limits of grip on the roads .


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## CXRAndy (16 Aug 2022)

How dare they 







Tesla did promise other EV owners access to their unparalleled charging network. It was also a UK registered Renault. I think they are paying 60-65p/kW.

I've used 360kW so far and maybe another 80kW to get home @ zero cost. 

If I had to pay Tesla fees it would be around £150 for 1500 miles 

Circa £450 if I still ran an ICE vehicle, plus emission pollutants


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## midlife (16 Aug 2022)

Yep, it's uneconomical to be poor.....


----------



## fossyant (16 Aug 2022)

Someone is paying for the leccy !  I think it will no longer be cheap/free very soon.


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## icowden (16 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Someone is paying for the leccy !  I think it will no longer be cheap/free very soon.



Tesla pay for the supercharging leccy. Lifetime free charging was part of the purchase with the S and X models up until 2020. First buyers of the 3 also got free supercharging but only for the first owner.

It seems like a daft idea, but remember that *most* of the time a Tesla is charged at home.


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## CXRAndy (16 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Someone is paying for the leccy !  I think it will no longer be cheap/free very soon.



I have lifetime free supercharging for my car. 

Tesla is paying for me funded from their profits


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## CXRAndy (16 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Tesla pay for the supercharging leccy. Lifetime free charging was part of the purchase with the S and X models up until 2020. First buyers of the 3 also got free supercharging but only for the first owner.
> 
> It seems like a daft idea, but remember that *most* of the time a Tesla is charged at home.



Wife got 12 months free. Again overall supercharger use is very rarely utilised. No brainer for Tesla to offer a year or lifetime for early adopters of their cars


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## Alex321 (16 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> Yep, it's uneconomical to be poor.....



Unfortunately, that is very true in many ways 

The better off you are, the easier it is to make use of economies of scale and take the up front costs that end up saving you money in the longer term.

Both EVs and solar panels are just further examples of that.


----------



## CXRAndy (17 Aug 2022)

Trying out my extended lead with 2 pin euro plug😁


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Unfortunately, that is very true in many ways
> 
> The better off you are, the easier it is to make use of economies of scale and take the up front costs that end up saving you money in the longer term.
> 
> Both EVs and solar panels are just further examples of that.



And boots of course !


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## byegad (17 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> And boots of course !



Yes, the Commander Vines law of boots. Pay 5AM$ for your boots, replace them every two years, pay 50AM$ for a pair and your grandson will be wearing them after you've gone.


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## CXRAndy (17 Aug 2022)

All home now, 340 miles today, left Belgium 9.30 

Glad to be back


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## CXRAndy (21 Aug 2022)

Real world example of how simple and easy it is to travel in an EV. The vehicle used is almost identical to mine


View: https://youtu.be/bM5hYkEXOVM


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## Sallar55 (22 Aug 2022)

The electric car has just moved the local environmental problems elsewhere. Lithium recycling at the moment is too costly, they might have a change of mind according to VW. And with global temps rising water is an issue. Quick Google search below

The extraction process of lithium is very resource demanding and specifically uses a lot of water in the extraction process. It is estimated that 500,000 gallons of water is used to mine one metric ton of lithium.[9] With the world's leading country in production of lithium being Chile,[10] the lithium mines are in rural areas with an extremely diverse ecosystem.[11] In Chile’s Salar de Atacama, one of the driest places on earth, about 65% of the water is used to mine lithium; leaving many of the local farmers and members of the community to find water elsewhere.[12][13] Along with physical implications on the environment, working conditions can violate the standards of sustainable development goals. The work is in very dangerous conditions with children as young as seven participating.[14] Additionally, it is common for locals to be in conflict with the surrounding lithium mines. There have been many accounts of dead animals and ruined farms in the surrounding areas of many of these mines. In Tagong, a small town in Garzê Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture China, there are records of dead fish and large animals floating down some of the rivers near the Tibetan mines. After further investigation, researchers found that this may have been caused by leakage of evaporation pools that sit for months and sometimes even years.[15]

Finite resourceEdit​While lithium ion batteries can be used as a part of sustainable solution, shifting all fossil fuel-powered devices to lithium based batteries might not be the Earth's best option. There is no scarcity yet, but it is a natural resource that can be depleted.[16] According to researchers at Volkswagen, there are about 14 million tons of lithium left, which corresponds to 165 times the production volume in 2018.[17]


Recycling​


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## CXRAndy (22 Aug 2022)

Just to remind you Crude Oil is running out, the easy reserves are fewer and it contributes massively to global warming. We need to get off fossil fuels asap


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## Sallar55 (22 Aug 2022)

No more fossil fuels? A lot of byproducts are required for today's products.


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## Chislenko (22 Aug 2022)

I bet that bloke in a Tesla that got wiped out by a Range Rover last night wishes he had not gone to the charging station at 3.40 a.m.


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## SpokeyDokey (22 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> The electric car has just moved the local environmental problems elsewhere. Lithium recycling at the moment is too costly, they might have a change of mind according to VW. And with global temps rising water is an issue. Quick Google search below
> 
> The extraction process of lithium is very resource demanding and specifically uses a lot of water in the extraction process. It is estimated that 500,000 gallons of water is used to mine one metric ton of lithium.[9] With the world's leading country in production of lithium being Chile,[10] the lithium mines are in rural areas with an extremely diverse ecosystem.[11] In Chile’s Salar de Atacama, one of the driest places on earth, about 65% of the water is used to mine lithium; leaving many of the local farmers and members of the community to find water elsewhere.[12][13] Along with physical implications on the environment, working conditions can violate the standards of sustainable development goals. The work is in very dangerous conditions with children as young as seven participating.[14] Additionally, it is common for locals to be in conflict with the surrounding lithium mines. There have been many accounts of dead animals and ruined farms in the surrounding areas of many of these mines. In Tagong, a small town in Garzê Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture China, there are records of dead fish and large animals floating down some of the rivers near the Tibetan mines. After further investigation, researchers found that this may have been caused by leakage of evaporation pools that sit for months and sometimes even years.[15]
> 
> ...



Lithium production for batteries and also the huge amount of copper needed for wind turbines etc doesn't seem to get much press re the transition to EV's.

As you say the problem is simply being moved elsewhere. Saying that, we clearly need different ways of propelling transport as oil will eventually run out - but whether EV's are the right answer is a moot point.

Are their any overall gains/losses figures re environmental damage available that express the totality of the impact by shifting from ICE to EV that you are aware of?

I've struggled to find any.

I'm not anti-EV by any stretch but we do seem to have knee-jerked in a particular direction without understanding the full impact of the switch.

Same with wind turbines - 3 tons of copper in the generator, 15 tons copper (average) to route to grid, 10 tons of epoxy/kevlar/carbon fibre per blade so 30 tons in total, another 15 tons of non-recyclable plastic, 2500 tons of concrete and 900 tons of steel.

Hardly a green alternative and millions are being thrown up across the globe.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

The Guardian view on rare earths: mining them can’t cost the Earth


"Climate solutions – such as solar energy, wind energy and electric vehicles – depend on rare earth elements, which have unique magnetic and luminescent properties. The trouble is that their production and disposal is environmentally destructive. It is worrying, therefore, that the European Union this week said that it wants lower regulatory barriers to mining raw materials needed for a green transition.

To get to net zero, Europe will require up to 26 times the amount of rare earth metals in 2050 compared with today.

Mining for rare earth minerals generates large volumes of toxic and radioactive material.

Over the next three decades “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”."


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...pc=U531&cvid=f905f20fb7914fed8784affebb74af76


----------



## SpokeyDokey (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The Guardian view on rare earths: mining them can’t cost the Earth
> 
> 
> "Climate solutions – such as solar energy, wind energy and electric vehicles – depend on rare earth elements, which have unique magnetic and luminescent properties. The trouble is that their production and disposal is environmentally destructive. It is worrying, therefore, that the European Union this week said that it wants lower regulatory barriers to mining raw materials needed for a green transition.
> ...



All gets filed under inconvenient truths. 

Couple of months ago a friend described his BMW iX as 100% green to run - he was being serious too. 

The car itself was quite nice, apart from the fugly grill, and felt far more luxurious than the Teslas I have been in (two performance 3's and the chubby little one just down the road from us not sure what the model is). 

Just countering the Tesla love-fest on here.


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## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Same with wind turbines - 3 tons of copper in the generator, 15 tons copper (average) to route to grid, 10 tons of epoxy/kevlar/carbon fibre per blade so 30 tons in total, another 15 tons of non-recyclable plastic, 2500 tons of concrete and 900 tons of steel.



Whilst not directly for those materials, ALL power generation requires these sorts of inputs. 

I can't immediately find a comparison, but I would guess that the material inputs are roughly proportional to the capital costs, attached from Wiki






And of course, the extraction of fossil fuels also required huge material inputs; oil rigs, mining equipment, pipelines etc etc 

So whilst the issues you quote are real, there's no reason to believe they're any worse than for other power generation options - and the high value items like copper are readily recyclable at end of life.

EVs are for sure not the answer, but they are also undoubtedly far more environmentally friendly than ICE cars.

Cycling is best of all, of course.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> rare earth metals



Rare earth metals, interestingly, aren't actually rare in the common meaning of the word.

From Wiki, my bold.


_Despite their name, *rare-earth elements are relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, more abundant than copper.* All isotopes of promethium are radioactive, and it does not occur naturally in the earth's crust, except for a trace amount generated by spontaneous fission of uranium 238. They are often found in minerals with thorium, and less commonly uranium. Because of their geochemical properties, rare-earth elements are typically dispersed and not often found concentrated in rare-earth minerals. Consequently, economically exploitable ore deposits are sparse (i.e. "rare").[6] The first rare-earth mineral discovered (1787) was gadolinite, a black mineral composed of cerium, yttrium, iron, silicon, and other elements. This mineral was extracted from a mine in the village of Ytterby in Sweden; four of the rare-earth elements bear names derived from this single location._

Just out of interest, not to minimise the entirely valid point you're making.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Whilst not directly for those materials, ALL power generation requires these sorts of inputs.
> 
> I can't immediately find a comparison, but I would guess that the material inputs are roughly proportional to the capital costs, attached from Wiki
> 
> ...



I think the 'undoubtedly' aspect of your post is debatable, especially if ALL issues are taken in to account. “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”. 


One example could be improvements to ICE fuel, which like the engine modifications, just about stopped dead the minute the ban was announced, which means emissions will be worse for decades while the changeover occurs, and EV's risk replacing current problems for future ones. Some manufacturers currently claim even lower emissions from ICE cars, which makes the lead in for the EV effects to kick in even longer.

There are also the consequences of the impact on emerging nations, both environmentally, economically and on individual health.

As others have mentioned, the current situation means that those fortunate enough to be able to afford an EV, are being subsidised by those that can't as prices rise to make up the short fall in fuel tax, and money for road improvements. That too has a variety of social and environmental impacts.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (22 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> *Finite resource *
> While lithium ion batteries can be used as a part of sustainable solution, shifting all fossil fuel-powered devices to lithium based batteries might not be the Earth's best option. There is no scarcity yet, but it is a natural resource that can be depleted.[16] According to researchers at Volkswagen, there are about 14 million tons of lithium left, which corresponds to 165 times the production volume in 2018.[17]





CXRAndy said:


> Just to remind you Crude Oil is running out, the easy reserves are fewer and it contributes massively to global warming. We need to get off fossil fuels asap


At least lithium and the other metals used in the production of EV batteries can be recycled. As @CRXAndy points out crude oil based fuels, once burnt in a ICE are gone; absolutely unsustainable. Never mind the pollution released into already polluted urban environments.

EVs will not be the *only *solution, but at the moment, they are one available means of reducing urban pollution. However encouraging and supporting cycling infrastructure and culture are things we can all do.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> At least lithium and the other metals used in the production of EV batteries can be recycled. As @CRXAndy points out crude oil based fuels, once burnt in a ICE are gone; absolutely unsustainable. Never mind the pollution released into already polluted urban environments.
> 
> EVs will not be the *only *solution, but at the moment, they are one available means of reducing urban pollution. However encouraging and supporting cycling infrastructure and culture are things we can all do.



They can be recylced in theory, but in practice that doesn't happen in anything like the quantities quoted in much of the literature, and it takes energy to do it.

They are not 'reducing' urban pollution, they are changing the pollutants of concern, as demonstrated during lock down, where ozone increased as a consequence of the reductions in oxy radicals and particualte matter didn't decrease relative to vehicle numbers due to primary and other reactions.


----------



## FishFright (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> They can be recylced in theory, but in practice that doesn't happen in anything like the quantities quoted in much of the literature, and it takes energy to do it.
> 
> They are not 'reducing' urban pollution, they are changing the pollutants of concern, as demonstrated during lock down, where ozone increased as a consequence of the reductions in oxy radicals and particualte matter didn't decrease relative to vehicle numbers due to primary and other reactions.



But the amount recycled is increasing very quickly as the market demands more of the elements used in EV's. In the US it's picking up really quickly as there is a lot of money to be made. 

How's recycling burned the hydrocarbons doing in comparison ?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> But the amount recycled is increasing very quickly as the market demands more of the elements used in EV's. In the US it's picking up really quickly as there is a lot of money to be made.
> 
> How's recycling burned the hydrocarbons doing in comparison ?



As I said, it doesn't happen in quantities anything like claimed in much of the literature, and still doesn't make them 'green' even compared to ICE, and it's still the poor subsidising the wealthier.


----------



## cougie uk (22 Aug 2022)

I'm sure recycled EV batteries will be great for using as household batteries to charge from Solar Panels. They don't need to be as energy dense as they do in the car.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think the 'undoubtedly' aspect of your post is debatable, especially if ALL issues are taken in to account. “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”.



I expect the same 70,000 years factoid could be applied to fossil fuel extraction *without* a renewables transition...


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I expect the same 70,000 years factoid could be applied to fossil fuel extraction *without* a renewables transition...



Possibly, but the fossil fuels would now be able to offer the multitude of benefits it brought, including most if not all of the products we use on a daily basis, improvements in health, and life expectancy, 90%+ decline in the impacts of natural disasters such as hurricanes etc, land reclaimed from the sea, creatures save from extinction etc etc etc. They'd need to be balanced against the lower living standards, less food availability and potential lack of growth from not having a compact, portable supply of energy. 

I'm not pro ICE, or anti EV, I just think that there is a lot of one eyed logic being pushed to support a mad dash for EV's and against fossil fuels, that doesn't take full account of all of the issues. That is quite liable to lead to a poor solution, and ignores the financial reality of many people.


----------



## cougie uk (22 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I bet that bloke in a Tesla that got wiped out by a Range Rover last night wishes he had not gone to the charging station at 3.40 a.m.



Awful stuff but I believe the fatality was in the Range Rover and the passenger is in a critical condition. How bloody fast was the RR driving ?


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## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> As I said, it doesn't happen in quantities anything like claimed in much of the literature,


Please quote the literature you say is claiming false levels of recycling


ClichéGuevara said:


> and still doesn't make them 'green' even compared to ICE,


Opinion posited as fact


ClichéGuevara said:


> and it's still the poor subsidising the wealthier.


Yes, a very valid criticism


----------



## Chislenko (22 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Awful stuff but I believe the fatality was in the Range Rover and the passenger is in a critical condition. How bloody fast was the RR driving ?



Yes, you have to have been going at some speed to end up where they did. Just goes to show how vulnerable we are on a bike when there are people like this driving two ton killing machines!!


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Please quote the literature you say is claiming false levels of recycling
> 
> Opinion posited as fact
> 
> Yes, a very valid criticism



Do you really think I'm going to dig out articles for you to claim they're not representative? I've played this game too many times to fall for that old gag. 

No more than your reply is exactly the same. 

Of course.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'm not pro ICE, or anti EV, I just think that there is a lot of one eyed logic being pushed to support a mad dash for EV's and against fossil fuels, that doesn't take full account of all of the issues. That is quite liable to lead to a poor solution, and ignores the financial reality of many people.



Yes, I agree.

I also see many people in this thread who make their argument against EVs which are, frankly, not factual.

Arguments against EVs are, IMO, (i) Equity - the subsidy of the rich you refer to; (2) embedding infrastructure which is not sustainable - doing everything by car; (3) Embedding a culture which mitigates against health and wellbeing - active transport.

The argument is NOT that EVs net emit more than ICE cars. They don't.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Do you really think I'm going to dig out articles for you to claim they're not representative? I've played this game too many times to fall for that old gag.



It's not a gag.

You're claiming something here, but actually it's not true at all. Now you're hiding from that fact.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Yes, I agree.
> 
> I also see many people in this thread who make their argument against EVs which are, frankly, not factual.
> 
> ...



I agree right up to your last point, which is a bit of a play on words, as it's about the total environmental impact rather than simply emissions (which themselves are debatable if you consider the issues with ozone and particulate) and that should include even the impact of the infrastructure required, such as the new trenches and cables to get the power from the sea turbines to places it can be used.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> It's not a gag.
> 
> You're claiming something here, but actually it's not true at all. Now you're hiding from that fact.



Did someone mention opinion dressed as fact?


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Awful stuff but I believe the fatality was in the Range Rover and the passenger is in a critical condition. How bloody fast was the RR driving ?



What happened? Fatality cause by an ICE car? BAN THEM!!!

[this is a joke, lest anyone take me seriously, god forbid]


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I agree right up to your last point, which is a bit of a play on words, as it's about the total environmental impact rather than simply emissions (which themselves are debatable if you consider the issues with ozone and particulate) and that should include even the impact of the infrastructure required, such as the new trenches and cables to get the power from the sea turbines to places it can be used.



Of course, the lifecycle impact should be considered.

Everything I've seen on this is clear that the lifecycle impact of EVs from an emissions perspective is far less than ICE cars.

From a "total environmental impact", such analyses are far harder to do - how do you define such? But I've seen nothing which suggests anything other than a net positive. If you have something reputable, please post it.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Did someone mention opinion dressed as fact?



You're avoiding the issue: You made a very specific claim that the literature on recycling rates is false. Unless you just made it up, you *must* have a source for it.

You obfuscate rather than respond.

Anyone would conclude you're just making things up to suit your preferred conclusion.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> You're avoiding the issue: You made a very specific claim that the literature on recycling rates is false. Unless you just made it up, you *must* have a source for it.
> 
> You obfuscate rather than respond.
> 
> Anyone would conclude you're just making things up to suit your preferred conclusion.



'The literature' 

I'm happy to have a conversation, but I just smile and walk away from silly things shoddily dressed up as meaningful questions. They smack of someone that doesn't actually want to know. 

You will no doubt claim this as a 'success', so enjoy.


----------



## FishFright (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> 'The literature'
> 
> I'm happy to have a conversation, but I just smile and walk away from silly things shoddily dressed up as meaningful questions. They smack of someone that doesn't actually want to know.
> 
> You will no doubt claim this as a 'success', so enjoy.



Am I correct that you offer zero evidence for the recycling rates ?


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> Am I correct that you offer zero evidence for the recycling rates ?



Asked and answered.


----------



## cougie uk (22 Aug 2022)

I do wonder how much petrol money is put into rubbishing renewables. 
Just look at how neat it is - solar panels on the roof and an EV. 

According to the calculator from just an average solar panel installation - I could power my EV for about 10,000 miles. 

That's more than the average mileage in the UK ! 

I really must get my finger out and look into this.


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## Sallar55 (22 Aug 2022)

Still have diesel vans one is 17 years old and it is serviced, only time it smoked was starting up when it was - 18° off the A9 at Dalwhinnie. Remember when the UK was in Artic mode. That spell of weather had weeks of no wind or it was very light, not good news for turbine power. If Toyota produce a cheaper version of the Mira and the Hydrogen network is nation wide I would have one.


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## cougie uk (22 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> Still have diesel vans one is 17 years old and it is serviced, only time it smoked was starting up when it was - 18° off the A9 at Dalwhinnie. Remember when the UK was in Artic mode. That spell of weather had weeks of no wind or it was very light, not good news for turbine power. If Toyota produce a cheaper version of the Mira and the Hydrogen network is nation wide I would have one.



That's a huge if though. 
And you use more electric to create the hydrogen than you'd use to charge a battery. So it's pricier than electric even before you pay for attendants and transporting the hydrogen around the country and building the garages etc etc.


----------



## Sallar55 (22 Aug 2022)

So who is paying for all the electric chargers, same difference. How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> *So who is paying for all the electric chargers,* same difference. How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.



We all are, even if we're never liable to use one. It's interesting how the expectation is for many of them to be provided by the Government, yet petrol stations are somehow different. It's not as if you HAVE to charge up at your home, in the same way you don't fill up with petrol on your drive.

On site generation of hydrogen is being trialed, where it is a way of storing solar and wind energy when it's generated when it is surplus to demand, making it effectively free.


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## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> So who is paying for all the electric chargers, same difference. How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.



Hydrogen isn't really possible for large scale use. All of the other issues aside, you need about 3x the electricity generation to make the hydrogen, simply due to the efficiency losses in (1) electrolysis (2) compression (3) transmission (4) fuel cell. Cycle efficiency in batteries is much higher.


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## Alex321 (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> We all are, even if we're never liable to use one. It's interesting how the expectation is for many of them to be provided by the Government, yet petrol stations are somehow different. It's not as if you HAVE to charge up at your home, in the same way you don't fill up with petrol on your drive.


I haven't seen any sign of such an expectation. I don't know of anybody who expects the government to provide charging stations, nor have I seen it suggested anywhere other than that post by you.

And no, of course you don't have to charge up at home. But most people who will have an EV would prefer to do so if they can, since that can be done while they are not using the car for several hours.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (22 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I haven't seen any sign of such an expectation. I don't know of anybody who expects the government to provide charging stations, nor have I seen it suggested anywhere other than that post by you.
> 
> And no, of course you don't have to charge up at home. But most people who will have an EV would prefer to do so if they can, since that can be done while they are not using the car for several hours.



You haven't looked very far then.

PS, in answer to the question you were thinking of typing, no, I'm not posting examples.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (22 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Whilst not directly for those materials, ALL power generation requires these sorts of inputs.
> 
> I can't immediately find a comparison, but I would guess that the material inputs are roughly proportional to the capital costs, attached from Wiki
> 
> ...



Sorry, but nothing in that post convinces me that the battery powered EV and renewables energy sources have less environmental impact overall. 

I am wanting to be convinced, and am happy to be convinced, but it's looking to me like we are just shifting the problems of ICE elsewhere. 

NB: walking is even better than cycling of course - far less use of the planets resources. 😁


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## roubaixtuesday (22 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> NB: walking is even better than cycling of course - far less use of the planets resources. 😁



Nah. Cycling is the most efficient mode of transport there is bar none 

_Compared with walking, a 64 kg (140 lb) cyclist riding at 16 km/h (10 mph) requires about half the food energy per unit distance: _


----------



## cougie uk (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> We all are, even if we're never liable to use one. It's interesting how the expectation is for many of them to be provided by the Government, yet petrol stations are somehow different. It's not as if you HAVE to charge up at your home, in the same way you don't fill up with petrol on your drive.



Have you not seen all of the charging stations ? There's dozens of private companies operating them. 

And why wouldn't you want to fill up at home ? Cheaper and takes zero time. 

I use public charging maybe 4 times a year and my EV range isn't huge.


----------



## Alex321 (22 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> You haven't looked very far then.
> 
> PS, in answer to the question you were thinking of typing, no, I'm not posting examples.



I wouldn't expect you to. Your speciality seems to be making sweeping statements that you are unwilling to (or can't) back up. That's why I didn't even bother asking for any cites.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Have you not seen all of the charging stations ? There's dozens of private companies operating them.
> 
> And why wouldn't you want to fill up at home ? Cheaper and takes zero time.
> 
> I use public charging maybe 4 times a year and my EV range isn't huge.





Alex321 said:


> I wouldn't expect you to. Your speciality seems to be making sweeping statements that you are unwilling to (or can't) back up. That's why I didn't even bother asking for any cites.



*sigh*

How many of the private ones are in conjunction with local authorities, or get a central government grant?

I don't tend to bother posting articles, as these things tend to be spread across several areas, as some posters will simply argue the minutia, but just to humour you, and give you something to claim it doesn't support what I said...

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news...ance-holding-back-local-authority-ev-rollouts


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## Alex321 (23 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> *sigh*
> 
> How many of the private ones are in conjunction with local authorities, or get a central government grant?
> 
> ...



Interesting. And I se no reason to nitpick. That is clearly an expectation that the government will be doing so.

I genuinely wasn't aware that local authorities (whether funded by them or centrally) were actually going to be responsible for the installation of charge points an infrastructure. I had thought it was all going to be private initiatives, similar to cable TV & internet services.

I'm not sure whether that is a good thing or not (which I know is completely irrelevant to your point).


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> *sigh*
> 
> How many of the private ones are in conjunction with local authorities, or get a central government grant?
> 
> ...



Usual, local government waiting for central government to fund it. councils know best their local areas, spend money on pointless fluffy projects. Best leave it private companies to drive the initiative. Of the 11 million households, how many are in cities and towns? They should be walking or cycling, their decision to live in cities.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Usual, local government waiting for central government to fund it. councils know best their local areas, spend money on pointless fluffy projects. Best leave it private companies to drive the initiative. Of the 11 million households, how many are in cities and towns? They should be walking or cycling, their decision to live in cities.



Hmm, so in your scenario, the inner Cities, which tend to compromise most of the deprived areas, should use local taxes to fund roads for the benefit of the wealthier that live outside and don't pay taxes to the City, and to not use them themselves. Aye, that seems fair.


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## CXRAndy (23 Aug 2022)

You're Joking my daughter and boyfriend are buying a 4 bed detached house in the countryside for less than half the price of rent in London. Everyone is not deprived.


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## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> You're Joking my daughter and boyfriend are buying a 4 bed detached house in the countryside for less than half the price of rent in London. Everyone is not deprived.



Goo job I never said _everyone_ was then. Presumably your daughter has factored in being able to live without private transport in her life choice.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Goo job I never said _everyone_ was then. Presumably your daughter has factored in being able to live without private transport in her life choice.



They like to cycle


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## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> They like to cycle



Excellent, so hopefully they'll be great advocates for a totally car free life among their new neighbours. It'll be interesting to see how they get on.


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## CXRAndy (23 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Excellent, so hopefully they'll be great advocates for a totally car free life among their new neighbours. It'll be interesting to see how they get on.



Oh no, they will have car, from the money saved on rent, a model Y will sit nicely on the drive.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (23 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Oh no, they will have car, from the money saved on rent, a model Y will sit nicely on the drive.



It was rather obvious that they would. Which goes nicely back to my initial point.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (23 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Nah. Cycling is the most efficient mode of transport there is bar none
> 
> _Compared with walking, a 64 kg (140 lb) cyclist riding at 16 km/h (10 mph) requires about half the food energy per unit distance: _



😁 More efficient certainly but not as green. All that steel, carbon, plastic, rubber...


----------



## Chislenko (23 Aug 2022)

Just going back to the Range Rover wiping out the Tesla Charging Point.

Reading the story a bit more in depth it says one of the chaps charging his Tesla was an UBER driver.

If he has one of the "Free Charging For Life" Tesla's and uses it as an UBER he must be making a killing. (I realise still wear and tear and his wages etc) but he has removed one of the biggest costs, the fuel to run his Uber.

Brilliant piece of thinking that man.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> If he has one of the "Free Charging For Life" Tesla's and uses it as an UBER he must be making a killing.



It looked like a model 3 or Y. Tesla stopped offering free lifetime charging on Model S and X late 2019/20. Model 3 got one year free, but Im not sure this has continued into 2022 and beyond.

Edit these were the years where you either got one free year or lifetime

Model 3: 2018-2019
Tesla Model: Year(s)
Model S: 2012-2020
Model X: 2016-2020


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## cougie uk (23 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Just going back to the Range Rover wiping out the Tesla Charging Point.
> 
> Reading the story a bit more in depth it says one of the chaps charging his Tesla was an UBER driver.
> 
> ...



I've seen a Tesla private hire taxi round here. If he's charging at home he's probably paying 1/10 the cost of petrol.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (24 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I'm sure recycled EV batteries will be great for using as household batteries to charge from Solar Panels. They don't need to be as energy dense as they do in the car.



I'm going to revisit this possibility with the increasing fuel charges. We have PV panels and only use a small amount of the generated during the day, even when I'm working from home.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (24 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.


There are already publicly accessible charging points which can be used by people who don't have off-street parking at their home. As an example, I was chatting with a friend who has recently switched from a ICE car to an EV. He recently had a journey from Fife to York and return the following day, a trip beyond the range of his MG. He parked overnight in a public car park with charging points and recharged whilst asleep. He also said he routinely plugs in to recharge when he goes shopping at the local Tesco supermarket, even if he is only there for a short period, he is effectively 'topping up' (for free) his car's range. It's just a change of mindset.

Yes commercial use will need either longer range of faster top-up. Hydrogen fits that requirement, but the distribution network is sparse, similar for CNG or other gas fuels.


----------



## Jameshow (24 Aug 2022)

I rode 400k on a:- 
cooked breakfast (ok some fossil fuel used!)
1 pack of wine gums
half a bar of chocolate (till it melted!)
A meal deal,
and a pint of Churchill cider and bowl of chips ...

No Tesla has ever traveled so far on such meagre rations!! 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## CXRAndy (24 Aug 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> It's just a change of mindset.


That's all it is to easily use an EV


Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Yes commercial use will need either longer range of faster top-up. Hydrogen fits that requirement, but the distribution network is sparse, similar for CNG or other gas fuels.


Tesla are just about to go live with their 'semi' haulage truck. Capable of either (battery capacity) 300 or 500 miles per day with fully loaded towing trailer. Out accelerates all other haulage trucks and will cost one tenth in fuel costs compared to a diesel alone to run. 

Once the USA truckers see this, diesel haulage will die. They spend literally many many tens of thousands of $ per year fuelling each truck

https://topelectricsuv.com/news/tesla/tesla-semi-all-we-know-feb-2022/


----------



## youngoldbloke (24 Aug 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> There are already publicly accessible charging points which can be used by people who don't have off-street parking at their home. As an example, I was chatting with a friend who has recently switched from a ICE car to an EV. He recently had a journey from Fife to York and return the following day, a trip beyond the range of his MG. He parked overnight in a public car park with charging points and recharged whilst asleep. He also said he routinely plugs in to recharge when he goes shopping at the local Tesco supermarket, even if he is only there for a short period, he is effectively 'topping up' (for free) his car's range. It's just a change of mindset.
> 
> Yes commercial use will need either longer range of faster top-up. Hydrogen fits that requirement, but the distribution network is sparse, similar for CNG or other gas fuels.



That's fine but what percentage of cars are EVs at the moment? What happens when the majority of cars on a street of terraced houses is electric, majority of vehicles visiting a motorway services is an EV? Will we have enough charging points. 2 or 3 in a Tesco car park is all very well, but I remain to be convinced the number of charging points will match the demand.


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## FishFright (24 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> That's fine but what percentage of cars are EVs at the moment? What happens when the majority of cars on a street of terraced houses is electric, majority of vehicles visiting a motorway services is an EV? Will we have enough charging points. 2 or 3 in a Tesco car park is all very well, but I remain to be convinced the number of charging points will match the demand.



In the same way the lack of petrol stations meant that the ICE never really caught on....


----------



## FishFright (24 Aug 2022)

On a serious note this thread shows well why the UK economy won't be on the up anytime soon.

There's not enough public charge points so we best give up now where as in an expanding economy it's a huge investment opportunity.
Batteries need recycling ditto. Better batteries , ditto. etc etc etc


----------



## youngoldbloke (24 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> In the same way the lack of petrol stations meant that the ICE never really caught on....


So the market will provide?


----------



## vickster (24 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> In the same way the lack of petrol stations meant that the ICE never really caught on....



Can you charge an EV from empty or even half empty in 10 minutes now?


----------



## FishFright (24 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Can you charge an EV from empty or even half empty in 10 minutes now?



Pretty soon you will. 

Can you drive yours without the filth pouring out the back ?


----------



## vickster (24 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> Pretty soon you will.
> 
> Can you drive yours without the filth pouring out the back ?



It was a genuine question


----------



## FishFright (24 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> It was a genuine question



Really ?


----------



## vickster (24 Aug 2022)

FishFright said:


> Really ?



Yep 

I wanted to know if charging an EV is comparable to an ICE timewise as if the points are going to be on the street or at petrol stations, they need to be quick so they can be used by everyone who will be driving EV in the future. The few ones at my local Tesco for example always seem to be occupied, presumably by people there for longer than 5-10 minutes unlike the petrol station. I think you can park for free for up to 3 hours which further limits the number of people who can use in any given day. If usage was limited to 10 minutes, then the access becomes much more universal.
Not everyone has access to charging at home / work as has been discussed before


----------



## DRM (24 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Can you charge an EV from empty or even half empty in 10 minutes now?



In a word, no, you’re looking at around 6 to 8 hours from empty to full, depending on the battery capacity, possibly a bit quicker with a high KWh charger, I think most drivers will make use of opportunity charging in order to gain extra miles, without doing a full charge, this is where you need to plan your journey ahead, get yourself to a charger with a bit of range left and go for a cuppa and a loo break whilst topping up, this is one huge advantage of a Li-ion battery that you can top up the charge without damaging the battery, unlike a lead acid battery.


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## cougie uk (24 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> Can you charge an EV from empty or even half empty in 10 minutes now?



Can you have a petrol car filled with fuel at home whilst you sleep or whilst you work ?

It's a different life with an EV. All you need is an electric socket. 

I normally charge mine to 80% overnight and that lasts me a day or two. 

I only charge away from home on long journeys so very rarely. 

Adding an extra 50% range is about 20 minutes on a fast charger so by the time you've grabbed a coffee and been for a wee- you're good to go.


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## cougie uk (24 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> That's fine but what percentage of cars are EVs at the moment? What happens when the majority of cars on a street of terraced houses is electric, majority of vehicles visiting a motorway services is an EV? Will we have enough charging points. 2 or 3 in a Tesco car park is all very well, but I remain to be convinced the number of charging points will match the demand.



Things change oldbloke. 
As the numbers increase - there's more charging available. It'd be ludicrous to put in dozens of charging points now when the demand doesn't require it. 

We all know that cars spend most of their lives parked up. 
It's not beyond science to put electric sockets by where they park.


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## vickster (24 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Can you have a petrol car filled with fuel at home whilst you sleep or whilst you work ?
> 
> It's a different life with an EV. All you need is an electric socket.
> 
> ...



You presumably live in a house with a driveway. Or the ability to park right outside?
I do too, but I have plenty of friends who don’t, they live upstairs in rented flats and can’t park a car close by. What’s the solution there? Do you need a special socket? or just a standard 3 pin job and a cable? I don’t know!
it‘s not yet a solution for the masses imo, a poster upthread said soon you’ll be able to charge in 10 minutes, from all chargers? This year, next year, 5, 10? What‘s the cost? Who’s paying for the infrastructure? Where are all these things going? Car parks? Petrol stations?
Unlike Norway, we don’t have billions spare in the bank from the sale of oil to fund, and a population 15x the size to service. Surely without (as much) fuel duty in the treasury, there’s going to be less money for infrastructure projects?

It only takes 10 minutes to fill up a car, don’t need to do while asleep. I just do it when I need to while out, after shopping, whatever


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## Gunk (24 Aug 2022)

Don’t worry the electric “achievers“ will have their very own numberplates soon. The same green as Waitrose.


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## cougie uk (25 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> You presumably live in a house with a driveway. Or the ability to park right outside?
> I do too, but I have plenty of friends who don’t, they live upstairs in rented flats and can’t park a car close by. What’s the solution there? Do you need a special socket? or just a standard 3 pin job and a cable? I don’t know!
> it‘s not yet a solution for the masses imo, a poster upthread said soon you’ll be able to charge in 10 minutes, from all chargers? This year, next year, 5, 10? What‘s the cost? Who’s paying for the infrastructure? Where are all these things going? Car parks? Petrol stations?
> Unlike Norway, we don’t have billions spare in the bank from the sale of oil to fund, and a population 15x the size to service. Surely without (as much) fuel duty in the treasury, there’s going to be less money for infrastructure projects?
> ...



Yes it's as simple as an electric socket. 
If you want fast charging then you need more kit - but just about every car is sitting somewhere overnight. 
These are going to be the bulk of chargers. People needing to fill up in 10 minutes are a tiny percentage and those chargers are far more expensive than a normal socket. 

Already local councils are putting charging points in lamp posts. 

And yes chargers are in petrol stations and car parks already. Just look around. 

I'm sure we will have to pay for Road use. That'll replace the income from petrol tax. Makes sense - the more you drive the more you pay.


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## CXRAndy (25 Aug 2022)

Battery charging will never be as fast as petrol filling. That is the trade off for clean emission free driving. 

If you're not even prepared for a small time penalty for having vastly cleaner air quality where you live, maybe you should reconsider your use of the type transportation.


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## youngoldbloke (25 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Yes it's as simple as an electric socket.
> If you want fast charging then you need more kit - but just about every car is sitting somewhere overnight.
> These are going to be the bulk of chargers. People needing to fill up in 10 minutes are a tiny percentage and those chargers are far more expensive than a normal socket.
> 
> ...



Won't we need chargers in every lamp post in every street? Cables draped across pavement where terraced houses have no gardens? Liability for pedestrian injuries? Councils installing, council tax increases? There are one or two chargers in some petrol stations and some car parks. Look around, consider when every vehicle you see parked needs charging. There is a long long way to go, and it is going to cost us all a lot. I'll probably not be around to enjoy the undoubted benefits. I hope it all works out.


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## Scottish Scrutineer (25 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> Don’t worry the electric “achievers“ will have their very own numberplates soon. The same green as Waitrose.


They already do
https://www.number1plates.com/plate-type/electric-car-number-plates/
Other suppliers are available...


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## cougie uk (25 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Won't we need chargers in every lamp post in every street? Cables draped across pavement where terraced houses have no gardens? Liability for pedestrian injuries? Councils installing, council tax increases? There are one or two chargers in some petrol stations and some car parks. Look around, consider when every vehicle you see parked needs charging. There is a long long way to go, and it is going to cost us all a lot. I'll probably not be around to enjoy the undoubted benefits. I hope it all works out.



These cars must be going somewhere ? Work places can put chargers in. Shops already have. Cafes too. 

I guess this will be a new business opportunity. Car charging at attractions or the shops or whatever. Petrol stations will go and these places will thrive.


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## DRM (25 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> You presumably live in a house with a driveway. Or the ability to park right outside?
> I do too, but I have plenty of friends who don’t, they live upstairs in rented flats and can’t park a car close by. What’s the solution there? Do you need a special socket? or just a standard 3 pin job and a cable? I don’t know!
> it‘s not yet a solution for the masses imo, a poster upthread said soon you’ll be able to charge in 10 minutes, from all chargers? This year, next year, 5, 10? What‘s the cost? Who’s paying for the infrastructure? Where are all these things going? Car parks? Petrol stations?
> Unlike Norway, we don’t have billions spare in the bank from the sale of oil to fund, and a population 15x the size to service. Surely without (as much) fuel duty in the treasury, there’s going to be less money for infrastructure projects?
> ...



I’ve seen a system whereby you have a pad fixed to the floor, with another pad underneath the vehicle, the one on the floor is connected to a charger, all you do is park over the charger pad and the the vehicle is charged using induction, just like an Oral B electric tooth brush, or wireless mobile phone charging, it’s not beyond the wit of man to place a charger at the roadside on a post, park over the pad and charge the car wirelessly, any data communication between the charger and vehicle could be done using Bluetooth or Ant+ or even a newly developed system of a similar type, there’s no need to have cables trailing all over the floor


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## vickster (25 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> I’ve seen a system whereby you have a pad fixed to the floor, with another pad underneath the vehicle, the one on the floor is connected to a charger, all you do is park over the charger pad and the the vehicle is charged using induction, just like an Oral B electric tooth brush, or wireless mobile phone charging, it’s not beyond the wit of man to place a charger at the roadside on a post, park over the pad and charge the car wirelessly, any data communication between the charger and vehicle could be done using Bluetooth or Ant+ or even a newly developed system of a similar type, there’s no need to have cables trailing all over the floor



To use on a public street?


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## DRM (25 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> To use on a public street?



Yes, why not, the idea was being developed for fork trucks, but it could work for cars, and it would work as other schemes seem to, where you have a contract, or pay as you go model, the car would still have a charging socket, but would make things easier for those with no drive to run an EV


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## gzoom (26 Aug 2022)

I did some interesting man maths yesterday, my eBike is coming up to needing a 'big' service. At 3500 miles the bike needs new chain, brake pads, brake bleed, gone through one rear wheel = £120 at Halfords, not too bad. 

The battery is showing 5% degredation and I guess it'll last 500 charge cycles if am lucky, so 10k miles. Electricity is so cheap on the eBike its negligible. So the rough cost of the eBike per 10k miles = £860, or 8.5p per mile.

Compare that to our EV. New tires every 25k miles at £120/per corner, new front brake pads every 50k miles at around £300, and fuel costs of 3p/mile (even at current electricity prices). So roughly running costs of £3000 for every 50,000, or 6p per mile.

Even if I include insurance on the EV at £500/year, doing 15k per year = and additional 3p per mile, totaling 9p per mile.

So quite unbelievably our 'luxury' EV, that comes with space for 6, air con, Netflix on a 17inch screen, leather seats, a roof, does 0-60 in under 5 seconds, costs at most the same to run per mile as my eBike, and if you take insurance away it's CHEAPER to run!!!

This is why used EV prices aren't going to crash anytime soon. Buying a car and owning/running a car has always been considered two separate costs, with latter the one people often get stung by as its an 'unseen' cost. But with EVs the later is almost negligible, to the point of making me now think twice about using my eBike for commuting as using the EV is CHEAPER, not to mention safer for me, and more comfortable


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## CXRAndy (26 Aug 2022)

View: https://youtu.be/S5lCvznzi8s


The comments pretty much cover it. Legacy car makers have a long way to go to catchup Tesla


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## ClichéGuevara (26 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> These cars must be going somewhere ? Work places can put chargers in. Shops already have. Cafes too.
> 
> I guess this will be a new business opportunity. Car charging at attractions or the shops or whatever. Petrol stations will go and these places will thrive.



That's assuming they can get sufficient power to the places it's needed. Talking to people tasked with doing that, and it's far from as clear cut as some press releases would have you believe.


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## Gunk (26 Aug 2022)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> They already do
> https://www.number1plates.com/plate-type/electric-car-number-plates/
> Other suppliers are available...



The latest government wheeze is that they will be all green front and back, not just a small green strip


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## shep (26 Aug 2022)

Now this might sound a little controversial but how about the people who don't want an electric car because they have little interest in new cars?

I prefer older, classic vehicles that I feel have more character and are more of a hobby than a simple 'mode of transport '.

What sort of time frame do people think I have before I won't be able to use my classic bikes and cars?

As it stands I have 3 bikes/scooter that are MOT/TAX exempt and my camper van will be in 2 yrs time so passing emission tests won't be an issue. 

When is it we're going to be unable to buy a normal car from 2030? so in theory I could buy a 10 yr old one in 2040 and it would still have a few good yrs left in it, not going to panic just yet.


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## Sharky (26 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> so in theory I could buy a 10 yr old one in 2040


Not sure that I will be buying a new or any car in 2040!

But I have had similar thoughts. One of our cars is a 20 yo Zafira and will keep it running for as long as possible. Anyone buying a petrol of hybrid car in the next few years, could keep it going until 2040 easily and beyond. Will there still be petrol stations nearby?

Might still be looking for a new bike in 2040 - will only be 90 yo.


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## roubaixtuesday (26 Aug 2022)

gzoom said:


> using the EV is CHEAPER, not to mention safer for me, and more comfortable



The sleight of hand of ignoring the ginormous depreciation aside, driving is *not* "safer" than cycling.

Driving imposes huge health downsides both physical and mental which far outweigh the superior collision performance.


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## roubaixtuesday (26 Aug 2022)

At danger of being on topic, a comment on the thread title:

"Are we being forced to go electric?"​
Ultimately, yes; fossil fuels are a finite resource, so we will be forced to go electric or stop driving.

The only question is when, not if.


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## shep (26 Aug 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> At danger of being on topic, a comment on the thread title:
> 
> "Are we being forced to go electric?"​
> Ultimately, yes; fossil fuels are a finite resource, so we will be forced to go electric or stop driving.
> ...



So as I stated earlier, probably no one actually reading this thread will be but our kids might be?


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## Alex321 (26 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> What sort of time frame do people think I have before I won't be able to use my classic bikes and cars?
> 
> As it stands I have 3 bikes/scooter that are MOT/TAX exempt and my camper van will be in 2 yrs time so passing emission tests won't be an issue.
> 
> When is it we're going to be unable to buy a normal car from 2030? so in theory I could buy a 10 yr old one in 2040 and it would still have a few good yrs left in it, not going to panic just yet.



Well no new ICE vehicles can be sold from 2030, so the numbers on the road wil, decline fairly rapidly after that. And as numbers decline, it will no longer bee onomical to run filling stations. I suspect it will be fairly hard to get fuel for them after about 2035 and very hard by about 2040.


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## shep (26 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Well no new ICE vehicles can be sold from 2030, so the numbers on the road wil, decline fairly rapidly after that. And as numbers decline, it will no longer bee onomical to run filling stations. I suspect it will be fairly hard to get fuel for them after about 2035 and very hard by about 2040.



Oh, OK.


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## DRM (26 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Well no new ICE vehicles can be sold from 2030, so the numbers on the road wil, decline fairly rapidly after that. And as numbers decline, it will no longer bee onomical to run filling stations. I suspect it will be fairly hard to get fuel for them after about 2035 and very hard by about 2040.



I actually think petrol and diesel will be around for a long while, it’ll be needed for HGV’s, Vans & all the different types of Plant machinery and agricultural vehicles, there’s still perfectly mechanically serviceable vehicles out there now that are quite elderly, so the last few ICE vehicles sold in 2030 could well be still in use in 2050, and research is on going into replacement fuels for ICE vehicles, iirc F1 will be on fully synthetic fuel from 2026


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## Chislenko (26 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> I actually think petrol and diesel will be around for a long while, it’ll be needed for HGV’s, Vans & all the different types of Plant machinery and agricultural vehicles, there’s still perfectly mechanically serviceable vehicles out there now that are quite elderly, so the last few ICE vehicles sold in 2030 could well be still in use in 2050



I think we also have to remember that what Governments say and what Governments do are two entirely different things!


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## DRM (26 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I think we also have to remember that what Governments say and what Governments do are two entirely different things!



Quite, although I think it‘s a Europe wide thing to stop the manufacturer of ICE vehicles, but I do think synthetic fuels will be available to run the ones left on the road


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## shep (26 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> I actually think petrol and diesel will be around for a long while, it’ll be needed for HGV’s, Vans & all the different types of Plant machinery and agricultural vehicles, there’s still perfectly mechanically serviceable vehicles out there now that are quite elderly, so the last few ICE vehicles sold in 2030 could well be still in use in 2050, and research is on going into replacement fuels for ICE vehicles, iirc F1 will be on fully synthetic fuel from 2026



Of course it will, when was the last 2 stroke vehicle made yet you can still buy oil and they still pass MOT'S.


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## Alex321 (26 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> Of course it will, when was the last 2 stroke vehicle made yet you can still buy oil and they still pass MOT'S.



Quite a lot of garden equipment is still 2-stroke.


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## shep (26 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Quite a lot of garden equipment is still 2-stroke.



Your strimmer need an MOT?


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## Gunk (27 Aug 2022)

You can still buy a brand new 2 stroke motorcycle

https://www.langenmotorcycles.co.uk/product/langen-two-stroke


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## Chislenko (27 Aug 2022)

EV's. Practical Questions.

As someone who has never been in an EV far less driven one how do they operate.

Do they all have an auto box thus just two pedals?

Or do some have like a conventional clutch system?

With them being a good deal heavier are the recommended stopping distances greater?


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## figbat (27 Aug 2022)

No clutch, no gears. Just two pedals, accelerator and brake. Most will drive on just one pedal, because when you lift off the accelerator it goes into regen mode where the motor works as a generator and puts some charge back into the battery. This offers a fairly strong ‘engine braking’ effect and will drop you all the way to a stop (since the motor does not have to keep spinning like an engine does).

Mine has a lever for selecting D, N, R or P.

Braking can feel a bit different to a conventional car but with regen and brakes together the distances are comparable.


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## youngoldbloke (27 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> No clutch, no gears. Just two pedals, accelerator and brake. Most will drive on just one pedal, because when you lift off the accelerator it goes into regen mode where the motor works as a generator and puts some charge back into the battery. This offers a fairly strong ‘engine braking’ effect and will drop you all the way to a stop (since the motor does not have to keep spinning like an engine does).
> 
> Mine has a lever for selecting D, N, R or P.
> 
> Braking can feel a bit different to a conventional car but with regen and brakes together the distances are comparable.



Why are they so much more expensive than ICE cars? Given that a lot of complicated bits - IC engines, gear boxes etc - are no longer required? I know that batteries are very expensive but ...


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

Electronics, to put it simply, the controller and a/c chopper box aren’t cheap, batteries are expensive as are traction motors, you still have a gearbox in the form of a reduction gear in there, all of this mounts up


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> EV's. Practical Questions.
> 
> As someone who has never been in an EV far less driven one how do they operate.
> 
> ...



There's no auto box. The motor has a huge range. 
I basically drive mine like a gi kart. One pedal driving 99% of the time. 
Once you lift off the accelerator it starts to slow down and will stop. 
Actually using the brake pedal is quite rare. Who wants to wear out their discs ?

I don't think the stopping distance is any different to any other car. 

Do range rovers have twice the distance of say a fiesta?


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Why are they so much more expensive than ICE cars? Given that a lot of complicated bits - IC engines, gear boxes etc - are no longer required? I know that batteries are very expensive but ...



Probably economies of scale play a part. Comparatively new tech is going to be more expensive than stuff that's been refined over decades. 
Plus I think people are prepared to pay a bit of a premium for them.


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## Gunk (27 Aug 2022)

EV’s are expensive as the batteries need rare earth metals such as lithium, cobalt, and nickel, which are not readily available. As consumers demand more range, the cars need more batteries. The issue which we haven’t seen yet is the longevity of these cars, the batteries loose efficiency every time they’re charged, so fine of you are the first user for three years, but some Tesla Model X’s are coming up for 10 years old. They are a brave buy.


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## Chislenko (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> There's no auto box. The motor has a huge range.
> I basically drive mine like a gi kart. One pedal driving 99% of the time.
> Once you lift off the accelerator it starts to slow down and will stop.
> Actually using the brake pedal is quite rare. Who wants to wear out their discs ?
> ...



Cheers, a bit like a twist and go electric scooter then really.

Presumably Cruise Control is compatible with these motors?


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Probably economies of scale play a part. Comparatively new tech is going to be more expensive than stuff that's been refined over decades.
> Plus I think people are prepared to pay a bit of a premium for them.



That’s the thing it’s not new tech at all, the materials handling industry have been building trucks with this technology in it for at least the last 30 years, it’s well proven that it works, the only difference being a forklift will run on either24, 48, or 80 volts, cars are on 600 to 800 volt batteries, all the electronics are really quite old hat now.


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Cheers, a bit like a twist and go electric scooter then really.
> 
> Presumably Cruise Control is compatible with these motors?



Yes and adaptive CC too - so you set your max speed and it will drive in traffic - if there's a car ahead of you it will slow down and when you change lanes or the car exits - it will get back up to your maximum speed. Definitely not self driving but it's a bit of an aid.


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> That’s the thing it’s not new tech at all, the materials handling industry have been building trucks with this technology in it for at least the last 30 years, it’s well proven that it works, the only difference being a forklift will run on either24, 48, or 80 volts, cars are on 600 to 800 volt batteries, all the electronics are really quite old hat now.



Probably a bit different for a high speed long distance car compared to a slow and heavy forklift where bulk and weight aren't really an issue though ?


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Cheers, a bit like a twist and go electric scooter then really.
> 
> Presumably Cruise Control is compatible with these motors?



Yes very easily, the controller can be rigged to have cruise control, much simpler than on an ice car, with the controller also being easily programmed to keep to speed limits, using gps, & a camera that recognises speed limit signs


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Probably a bit different for a high speed long distance car compared to a slow and heavy forklift where bulk and weight aren't really an issue though ?



No it’s exactly the same technology, had a look at a Tesla years ago and the salesman was waffling on, he was most deflated when I could recognise, and tell him exactly how it works in more detail, the a/c chopper box and traction motors are exactly the same, just the operating voltage is different, it’s basic ohm’s law increase the voltage, decrease the current draw.
Also they will spec the reduction gear to suit the vehicles use, ie in a fork truck it doesn’t need to go above 18 mph, but needs to set off with a full load, where as a car needs to accelerate from stand still and run up to motorway speeds.


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## shep (27 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> You can still buy a brand new 2 stroke motorcycle
> 
> https://www.langenmotorcycles.co.uk/product/langen-two-stroke



28k, be seeing plenty of those on the roads.


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

Also regarding cost, the car has a built in battery charger too, the price of Li-ion charger is eye watering


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## Chislenko (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Yes and adaptive CC too - so you set your max speed and it will drive in traffic - if there's a car ahead of you it will slow down and when you change lanes or the car exits - it will get back up to your maximum speed. Definitely not self driving but it's a bit of an aid.



I suppose my reluctance to buying an EV is the limited driving I do nowadays and the initial outlay. When I bought my present car it was my "retirement car" that was going to last me basically unti I stop driving.

It is now seven years old and has done 31k. If you factor in following Wales all over France at Euro 2016 (5000 miles) four trips to Portugal at circa 4000 miles each that is obviously 21k.

So my "normal" mileage is less than 1500 a year so the initial outlay hardly seems worth it. (Our place in Portugal is under offer so we will not be making those trips anymore) 

So for 1500 miles a year that is barely three fills of the tank (70 litre tank at circa 50 mph) even at £1.70 a litre it doesn't even work out to £400 a year.

Like a few on here I do more miles a year pedal power than in the car!

So for me financially it just doesn't seem worth it.

The wife's car is however now coming on 15 years old so when / if it gives up the ghost we will probably go electric for her (basically goes shopping in it, similar annual mileage to myself)


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## figbat (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Actually using the brake pedal is quite rare. Who wants to wear out their discs ?



Same here for using the brakes, very rare, but since my car is FWD it blends in rear brakes on regen deceleration to maintain vehicle stability - this is obvious when cleaning the car as the rear wheels are far dirtier than the fronts - total opposite to ICE cars.


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I suppose my reluctance to buying an EV is the limited driving I do nowadays and the initial outlay. When I bought my present car it was my "retirement car" that was going to last me basically unti I stop driving.
> 
> It is now seven years old and has done 31k. If you factor in following Wales all over France at Euro 2016 (5000 miles) four trips to Portugal at circa 4000 miles each that is obviously 21k.
> 
> ...



It might be worth looking into a really old EV you know. Like the first Leaf - 24kwh. You won't have a huge range but it'd cover your weekly range very easily - and if you got solar - you'd never need to pay for fuel !


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

Chislenko said:


> I suppose my reluctance to buying an EV is the limited driving I do nowadays and the initial outlay. When I bought my present car it was my "retirement car" that was going to last me basically unti I stop driving.
> 
> It is now seven years old and has done 31k. If you factor in following Wales all over France at Euro 2016 (5000 miles) four trips to Portugal at circa 4000 miles each that is obviously 21k.
> 
> ...



Same with us, our car is 5 years old, only done 22,300 miles and it’s going to be still perfectly usable in 8 years time, by which time I don’t think I’d be wanting to buy a new car anyway


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## Gunk (27 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> 28k, be seeing plenty of those on the roads.



I’d rather buy a good restored RD400 for £9000


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## midlife (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> There's no auto box. The motor has a huge range.
> I basically drive mine like a gi kart. One pedal driving 99% of the time.
> Once you lift off the accelerator it starts to slow down and will stop.
> Actually using the brake pedal is quite rare. Who wants to wear out their discs ?
> ...


There is no conventional gearbox as in ICE cars but I thought EVs had reduction gears in the drive?


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## cougie uk (27 Aug 2022)

midlife said:


> There is no conventional gearbox as in ICE cars but I thought EVs had reduction gears in the drive?



Possibly. I'm not a real mechanic. I just drive one.


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## CXRAndy (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> One pedal driving *99.9*% of the time



I hardly touch the brake pedal on the Nissan Leaf or Model 3.


midlife said:


> There is no conventional gearbox as in ICE cars but I thought EVs had reduction gears in the drive?



There is usually a single reduction gear on most EVs, the torque of the motor in conjunction with gearing, allows for zero to maximum speed within the max motor rpm.

Now Audi and Porsche have gone with two gears, to maximise acceleration and top speed. This shows where the Taycan begins to pull away from the likes of a Tesla once you get above 120mph. This maybe to satisfy the German sales rep, smashing it up the autobahn


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## youngoldbloke (27 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I hardly touch the brake pedal on the Nissan Leaf or Model 3.
> 
> 
> There is usually a single reduction gear on most EVs, the torque of the motor in conjunction with gearing, allows for zero to maximum speed within the max motor rpm.
> ...



What a useful feature! 👎


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## figbat (27 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I hardly touch the brake pedal on the Nissan Leaf or Model 3.
> 
> 
> There is usually a single reduction gear on most EVs, the torque of the motor in conjunction with gearing, allows for zero to maximum speed within the max motor rpm.
> ...



Yep. And the reduction gears still need oil, so the idea that pervades that EVs are somehow dry is dispelled. They need transmission oil, coolant, greases and brake fluid to name a few.


----------



## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I hardly touch the brake pedal on the Nissan Leaf or Model 3.
> 
> 
> There is usually a single reduction gear on most EVs, the torque of the motor in conjunction with gearing, allows for zero to maximum speed within the max motor rpm.
> ...



And they wonder why BMW’s & Audi’s are the bane of everybody’s driving experiences when they do stupid things like that, the Tesla is more than fast enough, the speed limit is 70mph in the UK, what a disaster letting someone loose in a leased company car like that, one they couldn’t care less about, other then getting from A to B as fast as possible, and stuff everyone else


----------



## SpokeyDokey (27 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> And they wonder why BMW’s & Audi’s are the bane of everybody’s driving experiences when they do stupid things like that, the Tesla is more than fast enough, the speed limit is 70mph in the UK, what a disaster letting someone loose in a leased company car like that, one they couldn’t care less about, other then getting from A to B as fast as possible, and stuff everyone else



Tesla are no paragons of virtue on the performance front.

Model S Plaid / 1020 hp / 0-60 1.99 seconds / top speed 200mph.

Figures from their website.

Re company cars - I had a lot over the years and looked after them properly. To the best of my knowledge most of my colleagues did too.

One company I worked for with over 2000 vehicles leased from Avis had punitive charges for any of the rare occasions when abused cars were returned at lease-end - the company picked up the tab and the costs were then charged back to the individual's cost centre which would thereby affect that individual's bonus.


----------



## icowden (27 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Awful stuff but I believe the fatality was in the Range Rover and the passenger is in a critical condition. How bloody fast was the RR driving ?



It's now thought to be about 100mph I think. I thought it was a great testament to the Tesla that it survived the impact of a Range Rover doing the best part of 100mph landing on top of it. Kudos to Tesla on the safety and strength of the car.


----------



## icowden (27 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> Yep. And the reduction gears still need oil, so the idea that pervades that EVs are somehow dry is dispelled. They need transmission oil, coolant, greases and brake fluid to name a few.



But they use that brake fluid rarely and the other oils almost never need replacing. What they don't need is engine oil which requires replacing every few years.


----------



## icowden (27 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Won't we need chargers in every lamp post in every street? Cables draped across pavement where terraced houses have no gardens? Liability for pedestrian injuries? Councils installing, council tax increases? There are one or two chargers in some petrol stations and some car parks. Look around, consider when every vehicle you see parked needs charging. There is a long long way to go, and it is going to cost us all a lot. I'll probably not be around to enjoy the undoubted benefits. I hope it all works out.



Nope, nope and nope. Go and read Elon Musk's mission statement. There will never be a need for everyone to own an EV. In fact car ownership will *drop*. Once EVs are autonomous, if you can afford one, it can go out and help other people when you aren't using it. Self drive fleets will kill the taxi trade and provide a replacement for car ownership. That's Musk's plan. To put his own company potentially out of business.


----------



## youngoldbloke (27 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Nope, nope and nope. Go and read Elon Musk's mission statement. There will never be a need for everyone to own an EV. In fact car ownership will *drop*. Once EVs are autonomous, if you can afford one, it can go out and help other people when you aren't using it. Self drive fleets will kill the taxi trade and provide a replacement for car ownership. That's Musk's plan. To put his own company potentially out of business.



- a utopian dream?


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## CXRAndy (27 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> - a utopian dream?



A definite vehicle ownership revolution. Why own a vehicle when one is available almost instantly for use


----------



## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Tesla are no paragons of virtue on the performance front.
> 
> Model S Plaid / 1020 hp / 0-60 1.99 seconds / top speed 200mph.
> 
> ...



That’s exactly what I’m saying, a Tesla is more than fast enough, adding a 2 speed gear box into a German c*ck mobile just to get even more speed out of it is, frankly ridiculous, abusing a car doesn’t mean crashing it, scratching it or putting dents in it, just thrashing the backside off it because you haven’t paid for it and couldn’t care less what happens to it mechanically, I know full well how lease companies go over the body work when cars and vans are returned, but on the whole you can guarantee that if something comes tearing up behind you at warp factor 9, it’s a rep in BMW or an Audi


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## DRM (27 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> But they use that brake fluid rarely and the other oils almost never need replacing. What they don't need is engine oil which requires replacing every few years.



Brake fluid will need changing every 2 years, just like an ICE car, it’s hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere, then if left and you have to brake hard, or whilst travelling down hill can cause the absorbed water to boil, causing the brake pedal to go to the floor and then you aren’t stopping any more.
the drive train will also need to have the oil changed, at intervals specced by the manufacturer


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## CXRAndy (28 Aug 2022)

I reckon the Germans added the extra ratio, so could have bragging rights, their car is faster on the fast motorways. something to differentiate their cars from Tesla. 

What I found apart from one Audi rep mobile, I was pretty much the fastest vehicle on the autobahn traveling at 125mph. 

Since my last Germany trip, the German drivers have slowed considerably-maybe fuel costs impinging their fun


----------



## ClichéGuevara (28 Aug 2022)

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1563465903273943040


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## Chislenko (28 Aug 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1563465903273943040




Is every car in China white?


----------



## Gunk (28 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I reckon the Germans added the extra ratio, so could have bragging rights, their car is faster on the fast motorways. something to differentiate their cars from Tesla.
> 
> What I found apart from one Audi rep mobile, I was pretty much the fastest vehicle on the autobahn traveling at 125mph.
> 
> Since my last Germany trip, the German drivers have slowed considerably-maybe fuel costs impinging their fun



Last time I went on the Autobahn most cars seem to be driving between 85 and 90 mph max, very few were driving that fast.


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## MrGrumpy (28 Aug 2022)

Gunk said:


> Last time I went on the Autobahn most cars seem to be driving between 85 and 90 mph max, very few were driving that fast.



Try Berlin city , the young team seem to be driving their AMGs, M3s and occasional Ferrari and Lambo at full pelt ! Well sounds like it


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## DRM (28 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Try Berlin city , the young team seem to be driving their AMGs, M3s and occasional Ferrari and Lambo at full pelt ! Well sounds like it



Same as Bradford when there’s a wedding going on


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## icowden (29 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> Brake fluid will need changing every 2 years, just like an ICE car, it’s hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere, then if left and you have to brake hard, or whilst travelling down hill can cause the absorbed water to boil, causing the brake pedal to go to the floor and then you aren’t stopping any more.


The eNiro EV recommends changing the brake fluid every 30,000 miles. Tesla recommend testing the fluid every two years but only replacing as needed.



DRM said:


> the drive train will also need to have the oil changed, at intervals specced by the manufacturer



Er... what drive train?

This is from Tesla:



> Tesla engineers continuously review maintenance recommendations to optimize the performance, reliability, durability, safety and resale value of your Tesla.
> 
> Unlike gasoline cars, Tesla cars require no traditional oil changes, fuel filters, spark plug replacements or emission checks. As electric cars, even brake pad replacements are rare because regenerative braking returns energy to the battery, significantly reducing wear on brakes.



The only maintenance items on a Tesla are:

Hepa filter every 2 or 3 years (model dependent - more expensive models have a better filter which only needs changing every 3 years)
Tire rotation / balance / alignment as needed
Brake fluid test every 2 years
Air conditioning service every 6 years
That's it. No other oil changes, no emissions tests, no nothing. Other models differ. FOr example a Nissan Leaf uses reduction gear oil which should be inspected, and they inspect a lot of other bits too. But the only replacements routinely are the air con filter and the brake fluid.

Mind you, for what it's worth the only oil I have ever changed on an ICE vehicle is the engine oil and the brake fluid. But you enjoy oiling your drivetrain by all means...


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## CXRAndy (29 Aug 2022)

Toyota playing silly anti EV games.


View: https://youtu.be/0WtaE1Vj-fM?t=722


----------



## shep (29 Aug 2022)

I can understand the 'pro electric' but not so much the 'anti'?

I wouldn't want one because in my opinion they have no 'soul' or character and do nothing for me but if people want one then fill yer boots, just don't have a go at those that don't. 

I'm sure at some point my kids will be forced to have them (they may want them) but I doubt anyone on this forum will be 'forced' to have one unless they want a brand new car once normal ones have stopped being produced.

As a matter of interest (I can't be bothered googling it) are all countries going to stop selling petrol/diesel cars at the same time and would you still be able to import a car from a country that hadn't banned them?


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## cougie uk (29 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> I can understand the 'pro electric' but not so much the 'anti'?
> 
> I wouldn't want one because in my opinion they have no 'soul' or character and do nothing for me but if people want one then fill yer boots, just don't have a go at those that don't.
> 
> ...



I don't need soul or character from a car. It just has to get me from point a to b.

When you import cars don't they have to pass standards? I don't know if they'll change the standards by then but it'd be an expensive way to do things and you may struggle with getting petrol.


----------



## CXRAndy (29 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> I can understand the 'pro electric' but not so much the 'anti'?
> 
> I wouldn't want one because in my opinion they have no 'soul' or character and do nothing for me but if people want one then fill yer boots, just don't have a go at those that don't.
> 
> ...



Most in Europe are within 5 or so years. Norway being the first in 2025. I very much doubt you will be able to import a ICE vehicle past the sales ban date. Who knows maybe individual imports may still be allowed. The issue is where could you drive it, towns and cities will have greater and greater zones for clean vehicles and larger and larger penalties for non compliant vehicles.

Subject to change-snowball picking up pace

Norway............................... 2025
UK, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, India 2030
France, Canada, China California, Spain, Portugal 2040
Colorado 2050
See here https://www.greencitytimes.com/global-ice-vehicle-phase-out/


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## shep (29 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I don't need soul or character from a car. It just has to get me from point a to b.
> 
> When you import cars don't they have to pass standards? I don't know if they'll change the standards by then but it'd be an expensive way to do things and you may struggle with getting petrol.



I understand people just have a car for practical reasons and that's great but we're not all the same are we?

I doubt you'll have trouble getting petrol for a while though, do you? 

Imagine the last day you can buy a petrol car arrives how long after that do you think demand for petrol will continue 20yrs? 30yrs, so that's 2060 already.

I may be wrong but I doubt many of us on here will be around to find out.


----------



## figbat (29 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> The eNiro EV recommends changing the brake fluid every 30,000 miles. Tesla recommend testing the fluid every two years but only replacing as needed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Teslas do have a reduction transmission and it does have oil in it. In fact different models use different technologies. My job includes developing oils for EV transmissions and whilst I don’t claim credit for the Tesla oil(s) I am aware of their needs.


----------



## DRM (29 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Mind you, for what it's worth the only oil I have ever changed on an ICE vehicle is the engine oil and the brake fluid. But you enjoy oiling your drivetrain by all means...


Reduction gearbox MUST have oil in it, if not it‘s going to seize up
So as for your Er ….What drive train, all EV’s have a reduction gear to join the drive motor to the wheels, that drive train is what I’m referring to, so go and have a look and see if the gearbox is sealed for life.
so they also test the brake fluid every two years and recommend changing if the water content is too high, that’s standard practice, most manufacturers usually specifying a change every two years, but you know what, why not replace the dot brake fluid with silicon brake fluid, then it’ll never need changing.


----------



## icowden (29 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> Reduction gearbox MUST have oil in it, if not it‘s going to seize up
> So as for your Er ….What drive train, all EV’s have a reduction gear to join the drive motor to the wheels, that drive train is what I’m referring to


Fair point. It's just not the one you were making, which was about the need to regularly replace that oil.



DRM said:


> , so go and have a look and see if the gearbox is sealed for life.


Why? Tesla say that it does not require regular maintenance. Therefore it doesn't. Are are you suggesting that they are actively sabotaging their own cars by telling you not to do something that needs doing?


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## Jameshow (29 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Most in Europe are within 5 or so years. Norway being the first in 2025. I very much doubt you will be able to import a ICE vehicle past the sales ban date. Who knows maybe individual imports may still be allowed. The issue is where could you drive it, towns and cities will have greater and greater zones for clean vehicles and larger and larger penalties for non compliant vehicles.
> 
> Subject to change-snowball picking up pace
> 
> ...



I'm moving to Colorado! 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## icowden (29 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> I understand people just have a car for practical reasons and that's great but we're not all the same are we?
> I doubt you'll have trouble getting petrol for a while though, do you?
> Imagine the last day you can buy a petrol car arrives how long after that do you think demand for petrol will continue 20yrs? 30yrs, so that's 2060 already.
> I may be wrong but I doubt many of us on here will be around to find out.


All good points. The question though may be more nuanced. As demand for petrol / diesel decreases, the price is likely to go up. So although you will almost certainly be able to buy both in 2060, there is somewhat of a gamble as to the point at which it becomes unaffordable for the average person to use for daily tasks.


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## icowden (29 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I'm moving to Colorado! 🤣🤣🤣


Good luck - let us know how the gun crime and health care go for you...


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## shep (29 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> All good points. The question though may be more nuanced. As demand for petrol / diesel decreases, the price is likely to go up. So although you will almost certainly be able to buy both in 2060, there is somewhat of a gamble as to the point at which it becomes unaffordable for the average person to use for daily tasks.



Good point and something we'll have to wait and see what happens. 


I suppose though unless electric cars become a lot cheaper there's always the money saved by not buying one that can be spent on fuel?


----------



## DRM (29 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> Fair point. It's just not the one you were making, which was about the need to regularly replace that oil.
> 
> 
> Why? Tesla say that it does not require regular maintenance. Therefore it doesn't. Are are you suggesting that they are actively sabotaging their own cars by telling you not to do something that needs doing?


No, not what I’m saying at all, Tesla will specify the lubricant for the reduction gear, in consultation with the gearbox manufacturer, if they deem it doesn’t need changing, it’s sealed for life, if they specify a change after x miles, or x years, that’s what you do.


----------



## figbat (29 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> No, not what I’m saying at all, Tesla will specify the lubricant for the reduction gear, in consultation with the gearbox manufacturer, if they deem it doesn’t need changing, it’s sealed for life, if they specify a change after x miles, or x years, that’s what you do.



And to be clear, ‘fill for life’ does not equal ‘fill forever’. ICE cars have had supposedly unserviceable transmissions for years, and yet they also have their oils changed but since it is not routine, it is not really discussed.


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## FishFright (29 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I'm moving to Colorado! 🤣🤣🤣



For the legal weed ?


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## DRM (29 Aug 2022)

figbat said:


> And to be clear, ‘fill for life’ does not equal ‘fill forever’. ICE cars have had supposedly unserviceable transmissions for years, and yet they also have their oils changed but since it is not routine, it is not really discussed.



Exactly, I’ve had many a discussion at work over transmission fluid & when it should be changed, firmly believe that 4 litres of oil and a filter are cheaper than a transmission repair.


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## Alex321 (30 Aug 2022)

shep said:


> I understand people just have a car for practical reasons and that's great but we're not all the same are we?
> 
> I doubt you'll have trouble getting petrol for a while though, do you?
> 
> ...



How old do you think most on this forum are?

I know there are a fair few wrinklies, and at 63 I include myself in that. But I would hope to still be around in 20 years time, and wouldn't be overly surprised at 30. And I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who are much younger than that.

And I think that demand for petrol will have dropped enough to make it uneconomic to continue running petrol stations within about 10-15 years of the ban coming into force. There wil still eb some petrol stations around, but they will need much bigger margins per litre than they currently operate on (and even now most make their main profits from ancillary sales, not from the actual fuel sales).


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## shep (30 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> How old do you think most on this forum are?
> 
> I know there are a fair few wrinklies, and at 63 I include myself in that. But I would hope to still be around in 20 years time, and wouldn't be overly surprised at 30. And I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who are much younger than that.
> 
> And I think that demand for petrol will have dropped enough to make it uneconomic to continue running petrol stations within about 10-15 years of the ban coming into force. There wil still eb some petrol stations around, but they will need much bigger margins per litre than they currently operate on (and even now most make their main profits from ancillary sales, not from the actual fuel sales).



Exactly the age you suggest, around 50 odd, so therefore probably not really driving that much in 30 yrs time. 

As pointed out already, in my opinion only of course, if the option to buy a petrol car stopped in 2030 I'll be 65 so I buy a brand new one. 

If that car lasts 20 yrs I'll be 85 and not really driving too much I would imagine so I don't think I'll be 'forced to go electric ' which is what the thread is asking I believe?

Obviously people who don't want older cars will have to buy electric because there is no option after 2030 but that's pretty obvious really so not really worth asking.


----------



## GuyBoden (30 Aug 2022)

My worry is that as these electric car get older, the DIY home car fixers can easily kill themselves will the huge electric shock from an electric car's battery pack.


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## icowden (30 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> No, not what I’m saying at all, Tesla will specify the lubricant for the reduction gear, in consultation with the gearbox manufacturer, if they deem it doesn’t need changing, it’s sealed for life, if they specify a change after x miles, or x years, that’s what you do.


This is at odds with your previous statement that EVs would need their drive train oil changed regularly. 
So now you agree with me that it doesn't need changing at all as part of regular maintenance?


----------



## cougie uk (30 Aug 2022)

GuyBoden said:


> My worry is that as these electric car get older, the DIY home car fixers can easily kill themselves will the huge electric shock from an electric car's battery pack.



Well if people are stupid enough to ignore all of the warnings about doing dangerous things - do you really want them driving cars on public roads ?


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## vickster (30 Aug 2022)

The roads will be so gridlocked by 2024, I don't think my 70 odd year old self will want to be driving, EV or ICE!


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## Alex321 (30 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> The roads will be so gridlocked by 2024, I don't think my 70 odd year old self will want to be driving, EV or ICE!



What makes you think traffic will increase so much in 2 years?

Or was 2024 a typo?


----------



## vickster (30 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> What makes you think traffic will increase so much in 2 years?
> 
> Or was 2024 a typo?



errr I meant to type 2040...updated  I'm nowhere near 70 yet


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## cougie uk (30 Aug 2022)

vickster said:


> The roads will be so gridlocked by 2024, I don't think my 70 odd year old self will want to be driving, EV or ICE!



Ah we will have loads of bike paths by then so the roads will be almost empty as everyone realises how brilliant cycling is...


----------



## vickster (30 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Ah we will have loads of bike paths by then so the roads will be almost empty as everyone realises how brilliant cycling is...
> 
> Or Truss tanks the economy and nobody can afford anything more than a basic Chinese bike.



That’s ok, I’ve got 5 lovely bikes already (although I doubt I'll be able to ride any of them at 70). 
She’ll be long gone by 2040 (as hopefully will Putin!)


----------



## cyberknight (30 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Ah we will have loads of bike paths by then so the roads will be almost empty as everyone realises how brilliant cycling is...
> 
> Or Truss tanks the economy and nobody can afford anything more than a basic Chinese bike.



lol i cant afford a new bike now , as i have whinged about elsewhere  .Until at least my kids are older and i have less outgoings but by then i doubt i will be working anyway .I worry given the high energy usage of the products we make will make it unviable to continue production .


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## Sallar55 (30 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> What makes you think traffic will increase so much in 2 years?
> 
> Or was 2024 a typo?


People are living longer and are not going to give up personal transport. All the young ones want a car after passing test. . That's why


----------



## cougie uk (30 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> People are living longer and are not going to give up personal transport. All the young ones want a car after passing test. . That's why



I think things will change. 

Energy costs have sky rocketed and that increases everything. 
WFH has become more acceptable for office jobs. 
Self driving cars aren't that long off now. 
It'll be a lot cheaper to use those rather than pay for a car that you might not use for days.


----------



## icowden (30 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> All the young ones want a car after passing test. . That's why


I think that might be changing. A lot of them support extinction rebellion, and want to have a planet to grow up on.


----------



## Alex321 (30 Aug 2022)

Sallar55 said:


> People are living longer and are not going to give up personal transport. All the young ones want a car after passing test. . That's why



No it isn't.

"Why" was that it was a typo. It was meant to be 2040, not 2024.


----------



## MrGrumpy (30 Aug 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think things will change.
> 
> Energy costs have sky rocketed and that increases everything.
> WFH has become more acceptable for office jobs.
> ...



WFH is going to cost people a bleedin fortune due to high energy costs !!

Still waiting on the self driving buses along the M8 up my way. Built the lane but never seen a bus yet ! We are a long way off seeing that up and down the country !


----------



## SpokeyDokey (30 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> I think that might be changing. A lot of them support extinction rebellion, and want to have a planet to grow up on.



ER might find vocal support in the 18-24 age group (and lower) but none of the youngsters in this age group that we know personally have not got a car or desperately want one.

Most of them go on/want to go abroad for holidays.

They all own iPhones, they all have laptops (mainly Apple).

We don't know any who are not "on-trend" re their clothing & footwear. 

There are a good number of veggies though.

The latter is an easy win for them but once they enter the realms of transport/pleasure/connectivity/image then their principles are soon compromised.


----------



## MrGrumpy (30 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> ER might find vocal support in the 18-24 age group (and lower) but none of the youngsters in this age group that we know personally have not got a car or desperately want one.
> 
> Most of them go on/want to go abroad for holidays.
> 
> ...




Depends where kids are living and how they have grown up using transport . It’s funny I was daft on cycling but none of my boys ever wanted to use it as form of transport. Maybe seeing me killing myself cycling to work in all weathers back when I was trying to save a few bob has put them off lol .

Kids living in large cities have no need to own a car so you will find those using public transport more and don’t even think about owning a car. 

However once you go further out you start to find a car is necessity due to the poor public transport options out-with cities . You find a car is a far easier option even if costly because it’s the only way to get to work college etc .


----------



## shep (30 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> I think that might be changing. A lot of them support extinction rebellion, and want to have a planet to grow up on.



You may be right but you may also be wrong, my Daughter has a car and my Son has 2 motorcycles, a car and a campervan so I guess they're all different.


----------



## CXRAndy (30 Aug 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> once they enter the realms of transport/pleasure/connectivity/image then their principles are soon compromised.



We have an eco warrior in our family, swore blind never to get a car. Then realised the hassle of public transport. Now own a car 

I like to be green, but do accept practicalities of modern life

Unless we all decided to live in mud huts again. You first though


----------



## SpokeyDokey (30 Aug 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Kids living in large cities have no need to own a car so you will find those using public transport more and don’t even think about owning a car.



We obviously have different experiences.

I do agree that youngsters living in cities will use public transport more but ime my previous comments about owning/wanting a car apply.

Most of our family live in London/Greater London, we have friends that live in London/Manchester etc and their youngsters are very car-centric.


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## All uphill (30 Aug 2022)

Our son passed his driving test at 18 and has never sat behind the wheel of a car in the ten years since.

That proves no more or less than the pro- car examples above.


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## MrGrumpy (30 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> Our son passed his driving test at 18 and has never sat behind the wheel of a car in the ten years since.
> 
> That proves no more or less than the pro- car examples above.



He can at least get a driving job !


----------



## CXRAndy (30 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> Our son passed his driving test at 18 and has never sat behind the wheel of a car in the ten years since.
> 
> That proves no more or less than the pro- car examples above.



Does he live in a big city, London, Manchester?


----------



## shep (30 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> Our son passed his driving test at 18 and has never sat behind the wheel of a car in the ten years since.
> 
> That proves no more or less than the pro- car examples above.



You're absolutely right but in this instance my reply was to someone who reckons times are changing with regards to the 'younger generation ' and I pointed out that probably some do and some don't. 

I dare say City dwellers throughout the ages have driven less because there was less need to do so and certainly not a pleasure whereas in more remote areas people would have relied more on personal transport. 

Either way who really knows how much petrol/diesel will cost in 30yrs time and most on here will be too old to care I would imagine.


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## All uphill (30 Aug 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Does he live in a big city, London, Manchester?



The big city of Taunton  He had 5 years in Manchester and saw just how much of that great city is dedicated to motor vehicles.


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## CXRAndy (30 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> The big city of Taunton  He had 5 years in Manchester and saw just how much of that great city is dedicated to motor vehicles.



Cities could be so nice if vehicles were banned. walking and cycling. 

Manchester asked to delay the congestion zone charge.


----------



## DRM (30 Aug 2022)

icowden said:


> This is at odds with your previous statement that EVs would need their drive train oil changed regularly.
> So now you agree with me that it doesn't need changing at all as part of regular maintenance?



If you go back and read what I said, it was to be changed at intervals set by the manufacturer, nowhere are the words changed regularly in the post
in fact


DRM said:


> Brake fluid will need changing every 2 years, just like an ICE car, it’s hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere, then if left and you have to brake hard, or whilst travelling down hill can cause the absorbed water to boil, causing the brake pedal to go to the floor and then you aren’t stopping any more.
> the drive train will also need to have the oil changed, at intervals specced by the manufacturer


----------



## icowden (30 Aug 2022)

DRM said:


> If you go back and read what I said, it was to be changed at intervals set by the manufacturer, nowhere are the words changed regularly in the post
> in fact



Yes, and my point is that no EV manufacturer that I am aware of has specified that "drive train" or "reduction gear" oil has to be changed at all, let alone on any sort of regular schedule - hence this is not present in the routine maintenance specifications of any EV. Your implication is that the customer has to have this oil changed at regular intervals.

Spoiler - not on EVs you don't.


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## roubaixtuesday (1 Sep 2022)

Electric buses recharging in Gothenburg tonight


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## vickster (2 Sep 2022)

My bus route has leccy buses too 
There‘s even a geeky YouTube vid  shows lots of the roads I cycle and walk often!

View: https://youtu.be/_DQXvJ8pojQ


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## gbb (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes, and my point is that no EV manufacturer that I am aware of has specified that "drive train" or "reduction gear" oil has to be changed at all, let alone on any sort of regular schedule - hence this is not present in the routine maintenance specifications of any EV. Your implication is that the customer has to have this oil changed at regular intervals.
> 
> Spoiler - not on EVs you don't.



It [perhaps depends on which maintenance instructions you're reading. There's an awful lot of maintenance required for any vehicle, most of which is not printed in the maintenance section of an owners handbook, that just covers basic requirements.
Look at proper tech docs (such as servicing docs used by garages / dealerships, they will state intervals and requirements waaaay beyond anything you see in aforesaid owners manual.
Personally,I don't see why EVs would be any different .


----------



## gbb (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> I think that might be changing. A lot of them support extinction rebellion, and want to have a planet to grow up on.



I've not seen any evidence of it with my kids, grandkids and young colleagues. Not a big example of course but with a caveat. Most kids i do know do worry about the future....but at the same time they're running a ton of electronic devices, still wanting and learning to drive and want all the accoutrements that come with modern life we live now.


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## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> It [perhaps depends on which maintenance instructions you're reading. There's an awful lot of maintenance required for any vehicle, most of which is not printed in the maintenance section of an owners handbook, that just covers basic requirements.


And yet Tesla say:


> Your Tesla does not require annual maintenance or regular fluid changes. Check your Owner’s Manual for latest maintenance recommendations for your Tesla.


Essentially the OTA diagnostic capability means that a Tesla is only "serviced" when there is a problem. As stated before, the only items that require routine maintenance in terms of replacement are the air filter, A/C and tyres. They suggest that you clean and lubricate brake calipers if you live in an area where roads a regularly salted in the winter).

https://www.thedrive.com/news/27109...fter-realizing-its-cars-are-just-too-reliable

EVs just don't require as much maintenance as ICE cars because they are not powered by controlled explosions. Not only that but maintenance requirements have decreased over time. Tesla used to require that battery coolant was changed - now they don't as it will last for the lifetime of the battery.
​


----------



## Milzy (2 Sep 2022)

I was going to order a Polestar 2 but with electric prices going silly high, should I just buy a small petrol engine car?


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## youngoldbloke (2 Sep 2022)

I was going to buy a new Berlingo SL, but they no longer make petrol or diesel versions, and the electric versions have limited range and cost getting on for 50% more . We need a Berlingo size/shape vehicle to get an unfolded wheelchair in the boot with back seats left unfolded. I can't find an equivalent affordable EV with adequate sized boot and good range. I'll just have to keep the existing diesel Peugeot 5008 going as long as possible.


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## midlife (2 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> I was going to order a Polestar 2 but with electric prices going silly high, should I just buy a small petrol engine car?



A Polestar II is £40k to £50k whilst a second hand small car is £3-4K

If you can afford the Polestar I don't think the cost of electric will be a problem ?


----------



## cougie uk (2 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> I was going to order a Polestar 2 but with electric prices going silly high, should I just buy a small petrol engine car?



What's your tariff? I was paying 1/10 the price of petrol per mile but with the new increase it will be more like 1/7th the cost. 

If you're looking at making financial sense you'll never break even if you order a brand new expensive EV though.


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## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I was going to buy a new Berlingo SL, but they no longer make petrol or diesel versions, and the electric versions have limited range and cost getting on for 50% more .


The range isn't *that* limited - how far are you needing to go usually?


youngoldbloke said:


> We need a Berlingo size/shape vehicle to get an unfolded wheelchair in the boot with back seats left unfolded. I can't find an equivalent affordable EV with adequate sized boot and good range.


Nope. At this point in time that would be impossible. EVs aren't routinely affordable by any stretch. If your existing vehicle has a few more years left in it, I'd stick with it. The prices will drop as uptake increases and efficiencies are found. At the moment the cheapest EVs are around £22,000. That said, a new Berlingo used to cost about £27,000 to £33,000 depending on model and before accessories and the EV appears to be priced the same. "Affordable" is thus doing a lot of heavy lifting here...

All of the box mpv EVs that I have looked up (VW e-Caddy, VW combo life EV, Peugeot e-Rifter and the eBerlingo have about the same range (circa 180 miles). Ford Torneo Connect EV is apparently coming out next year.


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## youngoldbloke (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> The range isn't *that* limited - how far are you needing to go usually?
> 
> Nope. At this point in time that would be impossible. EVs aren't routinely affordable by any stretch. If your existing vehicle has a few more years left in it, I'd stick with it. The prices will drop as uptake increases and efficiencies are found. At the moment the cheapest EVs are around £22,000. That said, a new Berlingo used to cost about £27,000 to £33,000 depending on model and before accessories and the EV appears to be priced the same. "Affordable" is thus doing a lot of heavy lifting here...
> 
> All of the box mpv EVs that I have looked up (VW e-Caddy, VW combo life EV, Peugeot e-Rifter and the eBerlingo have about the same range (circa 180 miles). Ford Torneo Connect EV is apparently coming out next year.



I was being quoted a lot less. I need a real life winter range of over 180 miles, for non-stop door to door trips. I could easily install a home charger, but my destination does not have one at the moment. Currently we make the 360 mile return trip in one day - 6+ hrs driving . Having to recharge on the journey would probably increase time so as to require us to staying overnight which would make the journey impractical.


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## cougie uk (2 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I was being quoted a lot less. I need a real life winter range of over 180 miles, for non-stop door to door trips. I could easily install a home charger, but my destination does not have one at the moment. Currently we make the 360 mile return trip in one day - 6+ hrs driving . Having to recharge on the journey would probably increase time so as to require us to staying overnight which would make the journey impractical.



Are you not stopping during your 3hour plus drive ? Motorway services have fast chargers so by the time you've had a wee and got a coffee you'll be almost back to full.


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## twentysix by twentyfive (2 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> you've had a wee and got a coffee you'll be almost back to full.



yep - the never ending cycle of wee, coffee, wee.......


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## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I was being quoted a lot less. I need a real life winter range of over 180 miles, for non-stop door to door trips. I could easily install a home charger, but my destination does not have one at the moment. Currently we make the 360 mile return trip in one day - 6+ hrs driving . Having to recharge on the journey would probably increase time so as to require us to staying overnight which would make the journey impractical.



SO this is what the EV Database has to say about the e-Berlingo..



> Real Range Estimation between 85 - 190 mi​
> City - Cold Weather *130 miHighway - Cold Weather *85 miCombined - Cold Weather *105 mi
> 
> 
> City - Mild Weather *190 miHighway - Mild Weather *105 miCombined - Mild Weather *140 mi


So yes, you are right that you would need a 30 minute wee break en-route in each direction.


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## BrumJim (2 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> It [perhaps depends on which maintenance instructions you're reading. There's an awful lot of maintenance required for any vehicle, most of which is not printed in the maintenance section of an owners handbook, that just covers basic requirements.
> Look at proper tech docs (such as servicing docs used by garages / dealerships, they will state intervals and requirements waaaay beyond anything you see in aforesaid owners manual.
> Personally,I don't see why EVs would be any different .



There is a whole load of difference between the oil change requirements on an engine, a gearbox (lots of gears) and a reducer (single/multiple pairs of gears permanently connected to the shafts). In the former ones, contaminants from combustion and wearing from components will degrade the oil. For a simple gear pair, the only wear components can be captured using a magnetic plug.

I'll check what we can run train reducers to without oil changes, but it could be around 0.5 - 1 million miles between oil changes with synthetics.


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## Gunk (2 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> A Polestar II is £40k to £50k whilst a second hand small car is £3-4K
> 
> If you can afford the Polestar I don't think the cost of electric will be a problem ?



Many are company cars driven by young powerfully built execs living the dream in their help to buy new builds. For them cost of electricity may well be a problem, they’re the generation that spend what they earn.


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## Milzy (2 Sep 2022)

midlife said:


> A Polestar II is £40k to £50k whilst a second hand small car is £3-4K
> 
> If you can afford the Polestar I don't think the cost of electric will be a problem ?



Polestar will be a company car…. Obviously 🙄


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## gbb (2 Sep 2022)

BrumJim said:


> There is a whole load of difference between the oil change requirements on an engine, a gearbox (lots of gears) and a reducer (single/multiple pairs of gears permanently connected to the shafts). In the former ones, contaminants from combustion and wearing from components will degrade the oil. For a simple gear pair, the only wear components can be captured using a magnetic plug.
> 
> I'll check what we can run train reducers to without oil changes, but it could be around 0.5 - 1 million miles between oil changes with synthetics.



Of course, that goes without saying but...theres going to be less to maintain but nevertheless, its not unreasonable to expect there to be dealer specific maintenance , longer term stuff. Reduction gear, brakes, fluids, general wear and tear etc. Its lots less than an Ice car, definately a positive in that respect.
That brings another question, servicing vs battery warranty, are you stuck with dealer servicing to maintain your battery warranty ?

I have no leanings particually for or against EVs BTW, , but have heard some people think they are effectively maintenance free...which of course is wholly wrong. Just a pedantic point of course.


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## icowden (2 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> but have heard some people think they are effectively maintenance free...which of course is wholly wrong.


So Tesla have got rid of their maintenance plan and any regular servicing because???


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## CXRAndy (2 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> Polestar will be a company car…. Obviously 🙄



If I had the option I would get a Tesla over a Polestar. Model Y would be my first choice


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## CXRAndy (2 Sep 2022)

180 miles is easily 3.5 hours non stop. I would never drive that far without a break. 20 to 30 minute rest around 120 miles would make the journey much safer for you and others road users


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## gbb (2 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> So Tesla have got rid of their maintenance plan and any regular servicing because???



So nothing wears out on a Tesla ?
Nissan i read regularly inspect brake and suspension, fluids, etc...add in any other consumables, wipers etc, seems quite prudent for safety reasons if nothing else. Not all EVs are Teslas, perhaps they use the very best parts that are virtually indestructible, Nissan at least think its prudent, perhaps most others do too


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## Gunk (2 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> So nothing wears out on a Tesla ?



The MOT tester will be the judge of that


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> So nothing wears out on a Tesla ?
> Nissan i read regularly inspect brake and suspension, fluids, etc...add in any other consumables, wipers etc, seems quite prudent for safety reasons if nothing else. Not all EVs are Teslas, perhaps they use the very best parts that are virtually indestructible, Nissan at least think its prudent, perhaps most others do too



Nissan kick the tyres, put some fluids in and charge you £250 for the honour. 

Yes you keep your warranty, but really there is very little to do. 

The brakes will be hardly worn from new. Maybe a brake fluid change around 3 years. 

Other than faults under warranty everything else is consumables that any tyre place could easily do. 

I had Kwik fit put a new set of hoops on our Nissan. Wouldn't dream of going to Nissan for tyres far too expensive as are Tesla. Kwik fit for both our cars for tyres 

Wipers and fluids should be really done by the owners, they're simple tasks any ham fisted ape could complete


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## BrumJim (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> Of course, that goes without saying but...theres going to be less to maintain but nevertheless, its not unreasonable to expect there to be dealer specific maintenance , longer term stuff. Reduction gear, brakes, fluids, general wear and tear etc. Its lots less than an Ice car, definately a positive in that respect.
> That brings another question, servicing vs battery warranty, are you stuck with dealer servicing to maintain your battery warranty ?
> 
> I have no leanings particually for or against EVs BTW, , but have heard some people think they are effectively maintenance free...which of course is wholly wrong. Just a pedantic point of course.



No. 

There is much less servicing required, but the main dealers still seem to be able to charge the same. Suspension and steering bushes wear / degrade quicker. We should see improved non-OEM parts for these for most electric cars. They are a bit more tetchy about brake fluid, and the 22v battery needs changing before it goes pop.

Generally electric vehicles should be much more reliable, although that does depend on the electronics being up to scratch.


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## gbb (3 Sep 2022)

I wonder how many people (like me) who casually considered the benefits of a cheap second hand EV (say £6 to 7k) now simply don't see it as a viable option. These high electric costs aren't helping people make what might have been a good move. I'm not poo poo'ing EVs BTW, for some (perhaps many) of us, EVs simply aren't a convenient option, maybe were a good cost option, a few months ago but even that seems to be evaporating for some of us.


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## Buck (3 Sep 2022)

Excluding company EVs where the BIK makes for cheap motoring, I see EVs being very much about a lifestyle change either because you want to “go green” or are in the position to have an EV and solar (and batteries).
Then the system is optimised and the benefits of greener transport, fuel efficiency and lower overall costs come together.


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## cougie uk (3 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> I wonder how many people (like me) who casually considered the benefits of a cheap second hand EV (say £6 to 7k) now simply don't see it as a viable option. These high electric costs aren't helping people make what might have been a good move. I'm not poo poo'ing EVs BTW, for some (perhaps many) of us, EVs simply aren't a convenient option, maybe were a good cost option, a few months ago but even that seems to be evaporating for some of us.



Even with higher electric it's still many times cheaper to charge at home than buy Petrol. 

If you were only charging at superchargers then it's a different proposition.


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## Gunk (3 Sep 2022)

Buck said:


> Excluding company EVs where the BIK makes for cheap motoring, I see EVs being very much about a lifestyle change either because you want to “go green” or are in the position to have an EV and solar (and batteries).
> Then the system is optimised and the benefits of greener transport, fuel efficiency and lower overall costs come together.



And in some cases chargers at the workplace.


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## Milzy (3 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> If I had the option I would get a Tesla over a Polestar. Model Y would be my first choice



Out of budget. Plus they look horrible & people are starting to hate on them. 
Polestar 2 is better without been better & 10 grand cheaper.


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> Out of budget. Plus they look horrible & people are starting to hate on them.
> Polestar 2 is better without been better & 10 grand cheaper.



Fair enough, each to the own taste, budget etc👍


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## icowden (4 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> Out of budget. Plus they look horrible & people are starting to hate on them.
> Polestar 2 is better without been better & 10 grand cheaper.



I don't see them as being competitors really. If you wanted a Y, the Polestar would hardly tick your boxes.
The Polestar 2 has a 446L boot (1095L with seats down).
Tesla Y boasts of 854L boot 2158L seats down (the Y doesn't have a parcel shelf which accounts for some of that). 

To me the competitor for Polestar 2 is the Tesla 3, although it has a very slightly smaller boot, isn't quite as fast off the line, and doesn't go quite as far. That said, apparently the Polestar's pilot software is good and it's a very comfy ride. It's 5k cheaper than the 3.

The Polestar 3 is going to be the competitor to the Y, but at the moment looks like being a lot more expensive. Apparently is due to make an appearance in October.

I'd have any of the above cars if offered though!!


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## mustang1 (4 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> Personally I think the Tesla bubble will burst, the X is now 10 years old and the big global manufacturers are producing better built, better looking alternatives.



Tesla is my favourite of all electric cars: its not specifically the car i like but the combination of car and tesla's electric charging infrastructure. 

The only car that's technically superior is a Taycan because it has two gears and works off 800V. But i think the two gears are purely for performance (it is a porsche afterall and they ain't gonna screw around) but they still don't have Tesla's network.


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## CXRAndy (5 Sep 2022)

I agree it's the overall package which results in Tesla being a country mile ahead. I also like the app, which is super convenient for all sorts of functions. 

Here is a simple example how far behind other manufacturers are. I can see real time the location,speed of our car from the app. 
My mate has got a 2022 Audi, they can see where the car was last parked as the location, soon as it's on the move, you only see where it was last parked. Why?

The Tesla, allows you to control climate, charging rates, times of charging, cheap rate etc, book service, open and close windows, boot, playback remotely security clips from its cameras.

The integration between user is so far ahead of anyone other manufacturer. This is why Tesla being a software company who make cars will be ahead for quite a long while. Over the last 3 years of ownership, the software/firmware upgrades has been continuously coming through. I can't count maybe half a dozen major improvements. All without leaving our home. 
I'd wager that many other manufacturers still require you to take the car into dealer, probably pay to have for maps updates.


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## shep (5 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I agree it's the overall package which results in Tesla being a country mile ahead. I also like the app, which is super convenient for all sorts of functions.
> 
> Here is a simple example how far behind other manufacturers are. I can see real time the location,speed of our car from the app.
> My mate has got a 2022 Audi, they can see where the car was last parked as the location, soon as it's on the move, you only see where it was last parked. Why?
> ...



I think someone needs to get out a bit more if you find software updates and watching your car on an APP exciting!


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## CXRAndy (5 Sep 2022)

Y'all Luddites


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## FishFright (5 Sep 2022)

mustang1 said:


> Tesla is my favourite of all electric cars: its not specifically the car i like but the combination of car and tesla's electric charging infrastructure.
> 
> The only car that's technically superior is a Taycan because it has two gears and works off 800V. But i think the two gears are purely for performance (it is a porsche afterall and they ain't gonna screw around) but they still don't have Tesla's network.



IIRC the 2 gears on the Porsche are there to make it seem sportier and adds nothing to the speed or range


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## mustang1 (6 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> IIRC the 2 gears on the Porsche are there to make it seem sportier and adds nothing to the speed or range



Yeah that's right: improves acceleration and top speed.


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## figbat (6 Sep 2022)

mustang1 said:


> Yeah that's right: improves acceleration and top speed.



But can do it with a smaller motor - this is what shifting e-transmissions allow.


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## CXRAndy (6 Sep 2022)

We have a EV ATV, it has a 48V battery to power its drive motor. Because its impractical to have long cables to do work around our place. I don't really like petrol tools, avoid where possible.

I decided to kit out the little ATV with a invertor to run my electric power tools and charge the battery handheld drills etc. So with some 100A flexi DC cable, fuses and big eyelets, I've knocked up a rig for me to be able to plug in and remove the invertor with 100A DC connector 

I trialled the system last night, I can run up-to 2000W continuous and peak at 4kW. I don't have anything that powerful to run, the most power hungry is a hedge cutter at 1800W. 

I used a heat gun to test current draw, measured with a DC clamp-drawing around 32Amps. So quite safe on the 60A rated fuses.

Off into the field we go


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## JhnBssll (7 Sep 2022)

MrsBssll and I are just back from a friends wedding in Portugal. We thought we'd mix it up a little and undertake a european roadtrip in our leccy car with minimal planning, and I must say it went rather well 

We left home at 4am last Wednesday with a fully charged battery and headed for Folkestone then Calais via the Eurotunnel. Once in Calais we topped the battery up and headed south towards our first overnight stop in Poitiers. Day two had us heading further south, eventually crossing the Pyrenese in to Spain with some stunning scenery. We stopped off in Bilbao to eat and sleep. Day 3 was a slog - bits of central spain were fairly flat and monotonous but once in to Portugal it got super pretty again and eventually we ended up in Sintra. We stayed here a couple of nights for the wedding before heading home again, stopping off in Bilbao and Le Mans on the way.

In total we drove a little over 3,000 miles in 7 days, stopping to charge 19 times in the process  We used around £385 of electricity, using the Supercharger network for every stop. The car told us when to stop, where to stop and how long to stop for and it was spot on every time. From a cost perspective I guess this is similar to what it would have cost in a petrol car but frugality was not the aim of the game with this trip  All in all a great experience and, now we have the toll tags etc set up, one we will likely repeat in future.


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## Buck (7 Sep 2022)

Sounds good John. If we had driven in our diesel car that would have been ~5-6 tank fulls so around £550 based on local prices.


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## Gunk (7 Sep 2022)

Just had my tolls bill from our Alps trip €195 

Worth it though fabulous holiday and an epic road trip.


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## Jameshow (7 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> We have a EV ATV, it has a 48V battery to power its drive motor. Because its impractical to have long cables to do work around our place. I don't really like petrol tools, avoid where possible.
> 
> I decided to kit out the little ATV with a invertor to run my electric power tools and charge the battery handheld drills etc. So with some 100A flexi DC cable, fuses and big eyelets, I've knocked up a rig for me to be able to plug in and remove the invertor with 100A DC connector
> 
> ...



What inverter did you get? 

PSW or a cheap one?


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> What inverter did you get?
> 
> PSW or a cheap one?



This one.







RS components had it advertised for £450. https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/power-inverters/1793339

I got direct from China wholesaler £180 delivered.


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## Milzy (9 Sep 2022)

Seriously though what if we all go electric in good faith & then they ‘charge’ high for power & petrol prices drop low? Then we are stuck with the silent money guzzling lumps out of pocket.


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## vickster (9 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> Seriously though what if we all go electric in good faith & then they ‘charge’ high for power & petrol prices drop low? Then we are stuck with the silent money guzzling lumps out of pocket.



Depends on your reasons for choosing EV. Greener or in an expectation you’ll save money, bit of both?
if only in the expectation of saving money, maybe wait if you currently have a perfectly usable ICE car which costs you less than payments on a new EV would? If you need a new car and are prepared to pay EV prices and see them as greener, then get one…although electricity prices are only going one way at present if having to pay yourself


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## cougie uk (9 Sep 2022)

Milzy said:


> Seriously though what if we all go electric in good faith & then they ‘charge’ high for power & petrol prices drop low? Then we are stuck with the silent money guzzling lumps out of pocket.


Well my tariff works out at 1/10 the price of petrol per mile. 
Even when it increases its going to be 1/7th. 
No greenhouse gases. 
No poisonous fumes. 
No bother with petrol stations. 

We can charge them using solar panels. 
Good luck digging for your own petrol.


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## Gunk (9 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Good luck digging for your own petrol.



what nonsense


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## Alex321 (9 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> what nonsense



I presume you can tell us which part of what he said is in any way incorrect, if you think it "nonsense"?


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## CXRAndy (9 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> what nonsense



Growing a field of corn maybe. Got a few acres spare? 


cougie uk said:


> Good luck digging for your own petrol.


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## midlife (9 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> I presume you can tell us which part of what he said is in any way incorrect, if you think it "nonsense"?



Not incorrect, but way out of most people's budget to buy an EV and then buy the solar panels / kit required to run it.

The comment about digging for petrol was simply rubbing our noses in it.


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## neil_merseyside (9 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Well my tariff works out at 1/10 the price of petrol per mile.
> Even when it increases its going to be 1/7th.
> No greenhouse gases.
> No poisonous fumes.
> ...



No *LOCAL* greenhouse gasses
No* LOCAL* poisonous fumes
No quick refill of range

Do solar panels need the same rare earths that need 12 year old miners, or is that minors


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## cougie uk (9 Sep 2022)

And yet there's loads of people Peeing away their money on big flash 4 x 4s or expensive German cars - rather than sensible stuff like this that will save you money. Go figure. 


midlife said:


> Not incorrect, but way out of most people's budget to buy an EV and then buy the solar panels / kit required to run it.
> 
> The comment about digging for petrol was simply rubbing our noses in it.


----------



## cougie uk (9 Sep 2022)

And yet there's loads of people Peeing away their money on big flash 4 x 4s or expensive German cars - rather than sensible stuff like this that will save you money. Go figure. 


midlife said:


> Not incorrect, but way out of most people's budget to buy an EV and then buy the solar panels / kit required to run it.
> 
> The comment about digging for petrol was simply rubbing our noses in it.


----------



## Mike_P (9 Sep 2022)

There is some 45 years+ worth of oil left, unless unknown reserves are found or consumption increases noticeably. Not sure if that is a pre Covid fact because if it judging by the amount of vehicles post lockdown there will be a few years less left.


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## CXRAndy (9 Sep 2022)

neil_merseyside said:


> No *LOCAL* greenhouse gasses
> No* LOCAL* poisonous fumes
> No quick refill of range



Surely this is a desirable feature. Not polluting densely populated areas. 

20-30 mins to rapid charge or overnight. It takes me longer to go and get fuel from local petrol station than it would to supercharge. 

Btw. Not all electricity come from fossil fuels, Around 50% is from renewable energy, like solar, wind, hydro.


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## Gunk (9 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> And yet there's loads of people Peeing away their money on big flash 4 x 4s or expensive German cars - rather than sensible stuff like this that will save you money. Go figure.



It’s called personal choice, people are free to spend their money on any car they like. If it’s not electric or a hybrid, so be it.


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## Jenkins (9 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Surely this is a desirable feature. Not polluting densely populated areas.
> 
> 20-30 mins to rapid charge or overnight. It takes me longer to go and get fuel from local petrol station than it would to supercharge.
> 
> Btw. Not all electricity come from fossil fuels, Around 50% is from *renewable energy, like solar, wind, hydro*.


And burning wood pellets shipped in from abroad


----------



## cougie uk (9 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> It’s called personal choice, people are free to spend their money on any car they like. If it’s not electric or a hybrid, so be it.



Aren't they rubbing your nose in it ?


----------



## icowden (9 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> And burning wood pellets shipped in from abroad



That's a small amount and will be done away with. The future is not in oil or gas. It's nukes and renewables - fission if we can get there.
The point is that with an EV we remove end user pollutants and they get "greener" as we improve our grid power sources.


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## Alex321 (10 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> It’s called personal choice, people are free to spend their money on any car they like. If it’s not electric or a hybrid, so be it.



They are, but won't be in 8 years time.

But so what? That wasn't the point. The point was that people are saying it is unaffordable, while choosing to spend MORE on other cars.


----------



## figbat (10 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> There is some 45 years+ worth of oil left, unless unknown reserves are found or consumption increases noticeably. Not sure if that is a pre Covid fact because if it judging by the amount of vehicles post lockdown there will be a few years less left.


There’s a lot of oil left. The main issue is the cost of recovery. An oil field is usually shut down when the cost of recovery becomes uneconomical, but it means there’s a lot left in it. A field is only usually 40-50% depleted when it is abandoned. With improving recovery methods and oil price fluctuations the effort needed to get the oil is constantly reconsidered and sometimes a field is reopened. Plus the methods of finding new reserves are improving too.

There may be an amount of ‘proven’ reserves left with a number years associated with it, but there’s a LOT more down there.


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## Gunk (10 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> They are, but won't be in 8 years time.



Of there will be choice in 8 years time, not everyone has the resources to buy a new car. There will be plenty of decent serviceable used ICE cars available for at least another 15 years.


----------



## cougie uk (10 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> Of there will be choice in 8 years time, not everyone has the resources to buy a new car. There will be plenty of decent serviceable used ICE cars available for at least another 15 years.



Maybe not so many. EV car sales have increased by 48% compared to this year. 
I'd imagine that this is only going to increase and there's not going to be many people buying ICE cars leading up to the cut off.


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## vickster (10 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Maybe not so many. EV car sales have increased by 48% compared to this year.
> I'd imagine that this is only going to increase and there's not going to be many people buying ICE cars leading up to the cut off.



Do you mean last year? And sales or leases? There don’t appear to be many cars to actually buy if you want one this year at any rate! 🤷‍♀️


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## Gunk (10 Sep 2022)

In 2021 only 16% of cars sold were EV’s


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## cougie uk (10 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> Do you mean last year? And sales or leases? There don’t appear to be many cars to actually buy if you want one this year at any rate! 🤷‍♀️



Yes 2022 vs 2021. 
No idea on leases. I know a few people who have bought new cars this year and they've been delivered ahead of schedule.


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## cougie uk (10 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> In 2021 only 16% of cars sold were EV’s



So in 2022 it's going to be about 25% and you'd expect 2023 would be 37% etc etc etc


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## Mike_P (10 Sep 2022)

At some point the numbers of ICEs will have fallen such that large numbers of filling stations will have closed and prices will no doubt increase at those left. The price difference between EVs and ICEs is predicted to drop as production and hence economies of scale increase.


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## Jameshow (10 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> At some point the numbers of ICEs will have fallen such that large numbers of filling stations will have closed and prices will no doubt increase at those left. The price difference between EVs and ICEs is predicted to drop as production and hence economies of scale increase.



I think they will be replaced by EV charging tbh. 

Ones that do close will be like old independent petrol stations - marginal businesses who are in the wrong way.


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## figbat (10 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I think they will be replaced by EV charging tbh.
> 
> Ones that do close will be like old independent petrol stations - marginal businesses who are in the wrong way.



There is no point having “EV charging stations” in the same way you have fuel stations. You ideally charge a car when doing something else, so chargers should be where people dwell - shopping, dining, cinema, theatre, sleeping etc. Chargers on main routes yes, for those long journeys on motorways and trunk roads but many petrol stations are urban or suburban and not well placed for EV charging.

It’s been said a lot before - a change of mindset is needed.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> There is no point having “EV charging stations” in the same way you have fuel stations. You ideally charge a car when doing something else, so chargers should be where people dwell - shopping, dining, cinema, theatre, sleeping etc. Chargers on main routes yes, for those long journeys on motorways and trunk roads but many petrol stations are urban or suburban and not well placed for EV charging.
> 
> It’s been said a lot before - a change of mindset is needed.



So you believe there will be thousands and thousands of chargers available in supermarket car parks. cinema complexes, and not just the 2 or 3 you sometimes find currently? Thousands and thousands more, not just 10 or twenty, but hundreds, available at each motorway services? And even more thousands and thousands of on-street chargers. I do wonder what this brave new world will look like. A change of mindset will certainly be needed.


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## icowden (10 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> So you believe there will be thousands and thousands of chargers available in supermarket car parks. cinema complexes, and not just the 2 or 3 you sometimes find currently? Thousands and thousands more, not just 10 or twenty, but hundreds, available at each motorway services? And even more thousands and thousands of on-street chargers. I do wonder what this brave new world will look like. A change of mindset will certainly be needed.



No - thousands of chargers are not needed. Most people only need to charge at home. It's not petrol.


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## CXRAndy (10 Sep 2022)

Yesterday I saw 4 model 3s in a row passing me at a junction. 

The town where my daughter goes to school, has seen a massive upsurge in EV, Tesla, VW, Pugs, Honda Es, Volvo.


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## CXRAndy (10 Sep 2022)

There will be far fewer stations. Some will transition to EV charging, mostly due to location. The rest will close.


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## Jameshow (10 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> There will be far fewer stations. Some will transition to EV charging, mostly due to location. The rest will close.



Many though are convenience stores. 

Those which are purely petrol stations will struggle.


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## cougie uk (10 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> So you believe there will be thousands and thousands of chargers available in supermarket car parks. cinema complexes, and not just the 2 or 3 you sometimes find currently? Thousands and thousands more, not just 10 or twenty, but hundreds, available at each motorway services? And even more thousands and thousands of on-street chargers. I do wonder what this brave new world will look like. A change of mindset will certainly be needed.



The vast majority of people won't need to recharge at the cinema or the shops. 

If you're on holiday - perhaps. 
If you have no home charging perhaps. 

I'm not going to the cinema if it's that far away from home!
.


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## vickster (10 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> No - thousands of chargers are not needed. Most people only need to charge at home. It's not petrol.



How will people who live in flats or don’t have off street parking at their residence do that conveniently, cheaply and safely overnight?


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## gbb (10 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> No - thousands of chargers are not needed. Most people only need to charge at home. It's not petrol.



But we're back to a modern problem, millions of people don't have the benefit of a drive.
Peterborough for instance has many many 'modern' estates , some built in the 60s, some being built now, where communal parking areas are the norm.
If I think up my street of around 50 houses (and that is a short street) I'm not sure a single one can park outside their front door. You could theoretically run an extension out but thats simply not desirable...or safe. 
Scale that across the estate, just my estate and I suspect 90% of people can't charge a car from their house (in a safe or appropriate way)
The street, if you placed charging points along its length you would struggle to accommodate all the cars, some houses (HMOs have three or more cars . Lots and lots of Pboro is like that, no reason to think many other modern towns are the same.


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## icowden (10 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> How will people who live in flats or don’t have off street parking at their residence do that conveniently, cheaply and safely overnight?


That's why I said "most" and not "all". Those who live in flats or don't have off street parking do tend to live in areas with good public transport and where a car isn't a necessity. There will be an increase in on-street charging points - lamp posts have been one mooted solution.


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## cougie uk (10 Sep 2022)

Most people don't live in flats.
Some people in flats won't have cars but even flats have car parks? 
I'd suggest it's an issue for the landlords and tenants to sort.

That's if the cars don't go anywhere else where there is charging. 

Like work, supermarkets, zoos, tourist attractions, various streetlamps, cafes, charging stations etc etc etc.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> That's why I said "most" and not "all". Those who live in flats or don't have off street parking do tend to live in areas with good public transport and where a car isn't a necessity. There will be an increase in on-street charging points - lamp posts have been one mooted solution.



I live in a village with no streetlights, some houses have no off-street parking, draping cables across pavements in the dark not a good idea. Cars really are a necessity. I suppose residents will have to drive to the nearest town to charge. I suspect there are many, many people in many places that will find at-home charging difficult if not impossible with current technology. There will also be an issue regarding chargers in conservation areas - I used to live in a conserved village which was mostly a single long terraced street, with street lighting fixed on the houses themselves, at eaves level. Many of those cottages had no rear access. Almost none-existent public transport.


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## Mike_P (10 Sep 2022)

One make of cars in Scandinavia has swoppable batteries so the battery is exchanged rather than being charged Obvious issues of where that would take place but who knows how the EV market and servicing will evolve.


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## Gunk (10 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> But we're back to a modern problem, millions of people don't have the benefit of a drive.



And may want to do a road trip further than the range of the batteries.

There is no way we will be ready for 2030, I would guess it will end up being pushed back. Especially now the government are spending 150 Billion on the energy crisis, they may need to provide even more support in 2 years time so I can’t imagine that the EV roll out will be at the top of the list of policy priorities. The 2030 date was just plucked out of the air with out much thought on how it was realistically going to be delivered.


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## vickster (10 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> That's why I said "most" and not "all". Those who live in flats or don't have off street parking do tend to live in areas with good public transport and where a car isn't a necessity. There will be an increase in on-street charging points - lamp posts have been one mooted solution.



Not necessarily and even so doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to have a car. As ever one rule for the middle aged and middle classed 
Many of the houses around here don’t have OSP, there aren’t enough lampposts for all the cars to be charged overnight 
You live in a built up area with public transport, in Walton…why do you need a car if others don’t? 🤷‍♀️


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## CXRAndy (10 Sep 2022)

Owning an EV will be different and a price to pay for zero tailpipe pollution.


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## icowden (11 Sep 2022)

vickster said:


> You live in a built up area with public transport, in Walton…why do you need a car if others don’t? 🤷‍♀️


It really isn't. The vast majority of houses in Walton have driveways. There are some blocks of flats where ev charging could easily be installed. And public transport here is pretty awful. The trains are good but there a very few busses to speak of. It would be next to impossible to make simple journeys to the supermarket etc.

I have lived in Kingston, Putney, Southfields, Wandsworth and never needed a car.


> Not necessarily and even so doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be able to have a car. As ever one rule for the middle aged and middle classed


No-one has said that they shouldn't own a car. What was said is that people don't need to own a car if they have good transport links, and as more chargers appear, those who cannot self charge from their house will also have solutions.


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## MrGrumpy (11 Sep 2022)

Was in the local Honda dealer looking for Honda Jazz for my mother. Noticed their EV offering , a small city car £36k !!!! Even the salesman said who in their right mind would spend that . A new hybrid CRV was £4k cheaper !


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## FishFright (11 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> So you believe there will be thousands and thousands of chargers available in supermarket car parks. cinema complexes, and not just the 2 or 3 you sometimes find currently? Thousands and thousands more, not just 10 or twenty, but hundreds, available at each motorway services? And even more thousands and thousands of on-street chargers. I do wonder what this brave new world will look like. A change of mindset will certainly be needed.



Obviously there will be , it's a huge investment opportunity.


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## rockyroller (11 Sep 2022)

let's go back to horses!


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Was in the local Honda dealer looking for Honda Jazz for my mother. Noticed their EV offering , a small city car £36k !!!! Even the salesman said who in their right mind would spend that . A new hybrid CRV was £4k cheaper !



Hideous little thing. That's the one with cameras not wing mirrors? 

The local dealer in Kendal has a very smart looking HRV EV in a sort of combat green colour on display.


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## icowden (11 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Was in the local Honda dealer looking for Honda Jazz for my mother. Noticed their EV offering , a small city car £36k !!!! Even the salesman said who in their right mind would spend that . A new hybrid CRV was £4k cheaper !



It's certainly odd - in that the Honda e was £28k OTR (24k list price) in 2021. They seem to have put up their prices a lot for 2022.
They seem to be a bit clueless. You could have an ID3 for 11k less.

It's an odd looking thing. I rather liked a comment I saw in one review that compared the interior to a 1980s cctv control centre.


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## cougie uk (11 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I live in a village with no streetlights, some houses have no off-street parking, draping cables across pavements in the dark not a good idea. Cars really are a necessity. I suppose residents will have to drive to the nearest town to charge. I suspect there are many, many people in many places that will find at-home charging difficult if not impossible with current technology. There will also be an issue regarding chargers in conservation areas - I used to live in a conserved village which was mostly a single long terraced street, with street lighting fixed on the houses themselves, at eaves level. Many of those cottages had no rear access. Almost none-existent public transport.



You can get hi Viz ramps/mats to cover any trailing cables. It's not that difficult to manage.


MrGrumpy said:


> Was in the local Honda dealer looking for Honda Jazz for my mother. Noticed their EV offering , a small city car £36k !!!! Even the salesman said who in their right mind would spend that . A new hybrid CRV was £4k cheaper !



Explains why I've only seen a few of them around. 
Meanwhile just about every other car round there is an EV - just not Honda. 
Plenty of far cheaper EVs.


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## youngoldbloke (11 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> You can get hi Viz ramps/mats to cover any trailing cables. It's not that difficult to manage.



That's really going to enhance the beauty of our historic towns and villages


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## cougie uk (11 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> That's really going to enhance the beauty of our historic towns and villages



Compared to the 2 tonne chunks of metal outside the lovely houses - you'd not even see the mats.


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## jowwy (11 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> *WFH is going to cost people a bleedin fortune due to high energy costs !!*
> 
> Still waiting on the self driving buses along the M8 up my way. Built the lane but never seen a bus yet ! We are a long way off seeing that up and down the country !



Working from home is way cheaper than travelling by car do to fuel costs……..even if you live 1 or 2 miles from work.

it costs me around 20p a day to work from home, but around £4.50 for me to drive to work, as i posted in the energy bills thread


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## MrGrumpy (11 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Explains why I've only seen a few of them around.
> Meanwhile just about every other car round there is an EV - just not Honda.
> Plenty of far cheaper EVs.



It was just an example and chatting to the salesman he was sceptical about EV take up on the scale planned. Considering the energy crisis we are in right now ! 

It’s funny I see EVs round my way as well but still the minority !


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## cougie uk (11 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> Working from home is way cheaper than travelling by car do to fuel costs……..even if you live 1 or 2 miles from work.
> 
> it costs me around 20p a day to work from home, but around £4.50 for me to drive to work, as i posted in the energy bills thread



I lived a mile away from work. Never drove. Walked or cycled. 
WFH just cost me a fortune in biscuits...


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## jowwy (11 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I lived a mile away from work. Never drove. Walked or cycled.
> WFH just cost me a fortune in biscuits...



I factored biscuits into my costs, it was only the fair thing to do lol


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## MrGrumpy (12 Sep 2022)

jowwy said:


> I factored biscuits into my costs, it was only the fair thing to do lol



You must eat crap biscuits


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## figbat (12 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It was just an example and chatting to the salesman he was sceptical about EV take up on the scale planned. Considering the energy crisis we are in right now !


He obviously missed the bit where the energy crisis also impacts fuel prices. Expensive electricity is still cheaper than expensive fuel.


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## cougie uk (12 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It was just an example and chatting to the salesman he was sceptical about EV take up on the scale planned. Considering the energy crisis we are in right now !
> 
> It’s funny I see EVs round my way as well but still the minority !



If I was trying to sell cars and my franchise had only one overpriced EV in the range - I'd be trying to put people off Electric too. 
I don't think a salesman with such a vested interest is going to be a good source of information.


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## MrGrumpy (12 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If I was trying to sell cars and my franchise had only one overpriced EV in the range - I'd be trying to put people off Electric too.
> I don't think a salesman with such a vested interest is going to be a good source of information.



maybe he’s wrong maybe your right ? Fact is that the infra is not their and working properly! That I’m sure will change but in my world round here it’s lacking !


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## gbb (15 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> maybe he’s wrong maybe your right ? Fact is that the infra is not their and working properly! That I’m sure will change but in my world round here it’s lacking !



And that brings another thought...
Asda have charging points for 4 cars (2x stations) Neither have been working for months, both look vandlaised.

Moving that onto on street charging, using lamposts perhaps. How in the world are they not going to get vandalised, tampered with etc etc ? Round here, some scum have been habitually vandalising rental ebikes...i suspect the urge to unplug a car at the very least will be too much to bear


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## cougie uk (15 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> And that brings another thought...
> Asda have charging points for 4 cars (2x stations) Neither have been working for months, both look vandlaised.
> 
> Moving that onto on street charging, using lamposts perhaps. How in the world are they not going to get vandalised, tampered with etc etc ? Round here, some scum have been habitually vandalising rental ebikes...i suspect the urge to unplug a car at the very least will be too much to bear



You can't unplug my charger without keys. It locks into the car.


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## Mike_P (15 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> You can't unplug my charger without keys. It locks into the car.



What about the charging point end?


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## cougie uk (15 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> What about the charging point end?



Dunno. Never needed to charge on the street like that in the two years I've had electric.


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## icowden (15 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> What about the charging point end?



Depends on the charger design. Many have a built in lead.


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## CXRAndy (15 Sep 2022)

Street chargers are usually tethered at the charger. I have used a Tesco free charger and had to use my lead in the boot. Again the lead is locked at the car, so if someone were to unplug it from the charger end, they couldn't just walk off with the lead. 

There will always be scum, who destroy anything. It's not a reason not to install EV charging points


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## figbat (15 Sep 2022)

I'm aware that the bp Pulse units (7kW) where I work lock at the charger end as well as the car end. Superchargers tend to have tethered leads. Some chargers have a big red 'emergency stop' button which will stop the charge and release the cable, which I'm sure will be irresistible to passing oiks on the way home from the pub. I've even heard that fellow EV drivers might emergency stop a charger that someone else is using so that can get access to it.


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## Mike_P (15 Sep 2022)

A solution could be wireless charging, EVs with a "contact" surface underneath with a triggering system to activate a charger buried in a parking space; only visible requirement would be the marking out of parking spaces.


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## CXRAndy (15 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> A solution could be wireless charging, EVs with a "contact" surface underneath with a triggering system to activate a charger buried in a parking space; only visible requirement would be the marking out of parking spaces.



The rate of power transfer is limited. Unless you have enough power to pin your wife's ears with the power. 


View: https://youtu.be/s9Ir95ThAv8


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## cougie uk (15 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> The rate of power transfer is limited. Unless you have enough power to pin your wife's ears with the power.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/s9Ir95ThAv8




I hate it when that happens...


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## DRM (15 Sep 2022)

Mike_P said:


> A solution could be wireless charging, EVs with a "contact" surface underneath with a triggering system to activate a charger buried in a parking space; only visible requirement would be the marking out of parking spaces.



Already here, induction charging is not new, used for materials handling, but could be adapted for parking spots


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## CXRAndy (18 Sep 2022)

A bit of costings re EV compared to owning a ICE vehicle. 

Extreme usage 300,000 miles of ownership. 

$10,000 to maintain an EV

$55,000 to maintain a ICE


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## icowden (18 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> A bit of costings re EV compared to owning a ICE vehicle.


And for those concerned that the battery makes an EV as bad is ( if not worse than) an ICE car, this is a great thread explaining why batteries are "greener" than they are sometimes made out to be.


View: https://twitter.com/MusingsEv/status/1570033033763295232?s=20&t=jNpCV6EUL7GLKwsHuhuzzw


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## MrGrumpy (18 Sep 2022)

Better add in the extra to buy an Electric vehicle over a normal vehicle .


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## Gunk (18 Sep 2022)

I still can’t see how going green means buying a two-tonne-plus electric car with its Congo cobalt and its Chinese-mined lithium and its Chinese-made battery cells and a likely carbon manufacturing footprint of circa 20 tonnes, often higher.


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## cougie uk (18 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I still can’t see how going green means buying a two-tonne-plus electric car with its Congo cobalt and its Chinese-mined lithium and its Chinese-made battery cells and a likely carbon manufacturing footprint of circa 20 tonnes, often higher.



You do know that the petrol at the garage doesn't just flow freely out of the ground there ?


----------



## Gillstay (18 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I still can’t see how going green means buying a two-tonne-plus electric car with its Congo cobalt and its Chinese-mined lithium and its Chinese-made battery cells and a likely carbon manufacturing footprint of circa 20 tonnes, often higher.



So nothing in petrol cars comes from China then .


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## fossyant (18 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> A bit of costings re EV compared to owning a ICE vehicle.
> 
> Extreme usage 300,000 miles of ownership.
> 
> ...



Total bollix. Owned ICE Nissans and over 100k it's been less than £5k.


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## KnittyNorah (18 Sep 2022)

Gillstay said:


> So nothing in petrol cars comes from China then .



I can't see how ANYTHING which uses rare earths and/or is manufactured thousands of miles away, can be called 'green'. Green*ER *than some other things, certainly, but not _free_ of damage to the environment.


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## Gillstay (18 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I can't see how ANYTHING which uses rare earths and/or is manufactured thousands of miles away, can be called 'green'. Green*ER *than some other things, certainly, but not _free_ of damage to the environment.



But that's the route we are taking. We want to get greener and that is a path that will gradually be taken and there will be some false starts and miss steps on the way. Almost nothing we do is free of damage to the environment, even putting your shoes on.


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## icowden (18 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I still can’t see how going green means buying a two-tonne-plus electric car with its Congo cobalt and its Chinese-mined lithium and its Chinese-made battery cells and a likely carbon manufacturing footprint of circa 20 tonnes, often higher.


You didn't read the twitter thread then? Or any of the posts in this thread?

I can summarise if you like...

CO2 emissions from manufacturing ICE vs EV: Manufacturing the car - pretty much the same. Manufacturing the battery about 27g/km extra.
CO2 emissions from fuel ICE vs EV: By the time the cars have driven 17,000 miles, the ICE car has caught up to the EV with CO2 emissions due to tail pipe gasses mostly. By the time you get to 100,000 miles the ICE car has spewed 260g/km whilst the EV is still on 150g/km, and nearly half of that is due to electricity production. If production becomes greener then that actually reduces. Countries are trying to reduce dependence on fossil fuels. This means that as an EV ages it is likely to become even more green. An ICE will always be polluting.
Cobalt and lithium are mined for all sorts of purposes, EV construction is a very small part of that - plus research into batter tech is driven by the update of EVs, meaning that Cobalt and Lithium usage will be reduced if not eliminated for *all* batteries not just EVs. That includes your laptop, mobile phone, etc. 
Manufacture in China. This is not an EV issue. The world manufactures in China due to cheap labour and lax safety laws. You want to change that? Start lobbying your MP, stop buying anything made in CHina - you'll find it tricky.


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## icowden (18 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I can't see how ANYTHING which uses rare earths and/or is manufactured thousands of miles away, can be called 'green'. Green*ER *than some other things, certainly, but not _free_ of damage to the environment.



Yes. That's the point. If you want to buy a Car, then an EV is Greener than buying a Hybrid which is greener than buying an ICE car. 
ICE is on the way out. The new technology has arrived.


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## KnittyNorah (18 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes. That's the point. If you want to buy a Car, then an EV is Greener than buying a Hybrid which is greener than buying an ICE car.
> ICE is on the way out. The new technology has arrived.



Surely what you meant to say was that if you *NEED* to buy a car ... 
Choosing to buy a car because you _want_ one, rather than because you _need_ one, is never going to be any sort of green option, regardless the type of propulsion system and fuel you select.


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## DRM (18 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> Total bollix. Owned ICE Nissans and over 100k it's been less than £5k.



Got to agree, average price of £250 to £300 per service on an ICE vehicle, 10 years worth of servicing is going to be £2500 to £3000 over the cars life time, even my van which is doing starship mileage each month won’t rack up 300,000 miles, that’s not quite ten years of constant use if it’s kept, which it won’t be, but the service interval is 25,000 miles or yearly, which ever comes first, so that’s 12 services, up to 300,000 miles probably cost £4200 to £4500


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## Alex321 (18 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> A bit of costings re EV compared to owning a ICE vehicle.
> 
> Extreme usage 300,000 miles of ownership.
> 
> ...



That will be with servicing at main dealers, at recommended intervals. And given the prices are in $, probably US ICE vehicles - which tend to have far shorter service intervals than UK/European cars. Though also with less expected to be done at a "service".

Most people don't get their cars serviced at main dealers, and often go beyond recommended intervals, so will rarely pay anything like that much in maintenance.


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## CXRAndy (19 Sep 2022)

You have to compare like with like.

Skipping service just increases likelihood of earlier failure.

It's a fair comparison, highlighting ~ 82% less to own an EV for maintenance costs alone. 

Then there is the huge, I mean huge fuel savings. If you invest in solar, then in absolute no time , solar has paid itself off and free electric travel thereon in


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## fossyant (19 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I still can’t see how going green means buying a two-tonne-plus electric car with its Congo cobalt and its Chinese-mined lithium and its Chinese-made battery cells and a likely carbon manufacturing footprint of circa 20 tonnes, often higher.



And our leccy car drivers are using leccy bikes too. Check out user profiles ! My horrible gas burning car hasn't moved in a month....I've used the bike or used the iccle Aygo we have. My horrible car, is a 1.8 saloon. 

My old 30 year old MTB tank is in use for the commute....


CXRAndy said:


> You have to compare like with like.
> 
> Skipping service just increases likelihood of earlier failure.
> 
> ...



Huge fuel savings but also a huge capital increase in outlay - possibly equal each other out if you keep the vehicle a long time, not if you like to change them.

I also think you are more likely tied to the stealership network should the car need work, hopefully independants will be able to do stuff at some point, otherwise they will be out of business.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2022)

DRM said:


> Got to agree, average price of £250 to £300 per service on an ICE vehicle, 10 years worth of servicing is going to be £2500 to £3000 over the cars life time, even my van which is doing starship mileage each month won’t rack up 300,000 miles, that’s not quite ten years of constant use if it’s kept, which it won’t be, but the service interval is 25,000 miles or yearly, which ever comes first, so that’s 12 services, up to 300,000 miles probably cost £4200 to £4500



add in the price difference buying an EV as well . Take that over the way folk buy cars . So over the 3/4yr PCP . How much of a saving ?


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## CXRAndy (20 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I still can’t see how going green means buying a two-tonne-plus electric car with its Congo cobalt and its Chinese-mined lithium and its Chinese-made battery cells and a likely carbon manufacturing footprint of circa 20 tonnes, often higher.



You wont either, blinkered to the need to change, ignoring the basic facts. Go and read the twitter points, if you dont believe them go and do further research instead of rolling out the usual Congo, Chinese this rubbish


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2022)

Above member has me on ignore but for the rest go back to the beginning of the thread and read some of the answers again. Nothing has changed really apart from the price of leccy  . It costs even more now to run an electric car. Pricing is even more stupid and getting one is also not quite so easy !  

The best thing you could do for the environment is drive less and/or keep your current car going !


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## cougie uk (20 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Above member has me on ignore but for the rest go back to the beginning of the thread and read some of the answers again. Nothing has changed really apart from the price of leccy  . It costs even more now to run an electric car. Pricing is even more stupid and getting one is also not quite so easy !
> 
> The best thing you could do for the environment is drive less and/or keep your current car going !



I think everyone gets that the best thing is to not drive at all. I'm all for that. 

But if you are buying your next car - an EV can make a lot of sense. 

Sure electric has gone up - for me it's 7.5p per kWh so that's £3.15 for a 140 mile fill. 

I reckon my yeti would cost about £30 for that distance.

We do about 13000 miles in the EV so it adds up. 

So maybe £300 a year electric Vs £2800 a year petrol. 

A couple of charges on the mway will add a bit to the electric bill but it's the thick end of £2500 a year on fuel. 

Now to see about getting solar....


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2022)

If you can make it work the fine , it’s just not quite there for all the reasons given already. 

As for solar it’s a minefield , with an awful lot of chancers  . Not found anyone yet that comes across as trustworthy.


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## Alex321 (20 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Above member has me on ignore but for the rest go back to the beginning of the thread and read some of the answers again. Nothing has changed really apart from the price of leccy  . It costs even more now to run an electric car. Pricing is even more stupid and getting one is also not quite so easy !
> 
> The best thing you could do for the environment is drive less and/or keep your current car going !



Straw man.

Nobody has argued otherwise.

There are arguments that some of us don't really have much choice, but I think we all agree that the best thing for the planet is for us all to drive les, and have fewer vehicles per person.


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## Gunk (20 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> You wont either, blinkered to the need to change, ignoring the basic facts. Go and read the twitter points, if you dont believe them go and do further research instead of rolling out the usual Congo, Chinese this rubbish



I’m not blinkered to need to change, I’m just reluctant to change, I drive 20,000 business miles a year so with the current infrastructure it doesn’t quite work and colleagues who have made the change are finding it challenging, especially longer trips.

however with the expanding ULEZ zone in Oxford we are thinking of swapping Mrs Gunks Golf GTD for an eGolf or BMW i3, as it will be perfect for short trips. However I’m still not convinced that EV’s are quite the planet saver they claim to be, but that just my suburban, narrow minded view.


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## JhnBssll (20 Sep 2022)

EV's are a small step in the right direction, nothing more. It'll take significant development of infrastructure and a step change in global lifestyles to make a real difference.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Sep 2022)

JhnBssll said:


> EV's are a small step in the right direction, nothing more. It'll take significant development of infrastructure and a step change in global lifestyles to make a real difference.



Again I look at the joined up transport links in Germany and how easy and quick to get from a to b and then look at what has happened here . I’d love to get rid of my car but I cannot rely on the public transport !


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## mjr (20 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Above member has me on ignore but for the rest go back to the beginning of the thread and read some of the answers again. Nothing has changed really apart from the price of leccy  . It costs even more now to run an electric car.


Hasn't the price of petrol also increased?


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## FishFright (21 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I can't see how ANYTHING which uses rare earths and/or is manufactured thousands of miles away, can be called 'green'. Green*ER *than some other things, certainly, but not _free_ of damage to the environment.



So that's ICE cars out , their electronics are full of them . As is whatever device you posted this from.


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## Alex321 (21 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> So that's ICE cars out , their electronics are full of them . As is whatever device you posted this from.



Of course.

Not sure what your point is, since he accepted they were greenER than ICE cars.


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## roubaixtuesday (21 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The best thing you could do for the environment is drive less and/or keep your current car going !



I think it's important to be clear about what such statements mean. 

In carbon emissions terms, even scrapping a perfectly good ICE car pays back in 4 years. So unless your car will be scrapped anyway within 4 years, its better for climate change to scrap it now. I've previously posted the source for this.

The overall environmental impact is much harder to judge, but it's far from clear to me that the mining of materials for electric cars is more damaging than the extraction of (far larger) volumes of oil to run ICE cars. And in the long term, electric cars are far more recyclable than ice cars, if you include the fuel. 

I absolutely agree that owning less cars and driving less (and actually, driving smaller and slower cars) is more important than what you drive if and when you do drive.

It would be nice if this thread reflected these nuances more, rather than the very black and white views often expressed.


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## FishFright (21 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Of course.
> 
> Not sure what your point is, since he accepted they were greenER than ICE cars.



It was the rare earths things that prompted my reply


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## fossyant (21 Sep 2022)

I still got to work without complaints, in record time, on my zero emission vehicle this morning - you should hear the moans about traffic (EV and ICE)


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## figbat (21 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I can't see how ANYTHING which uses rare earths and/or is manufactured thousands of miles away, can be called 'green'. Green*ER *than some other things, certainly, but not _free_ of damage to the environment.



Out of interest, which rare earth elements are we talking about? The focus is usually on lithium, nickel, cobalt and manganese but none of these are rare earths (not to say that they don't have their mining and production issues but then so does the extraction and refining of crude oil). Perhaps there are some RE elements I am not aware of used as catalysts, or in trace amounts?


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## cougie uk (21 Sep 2022)

There's a program on R4 next week about rare earth elements and it's mining. Might be worth a listen. I think it's Monday to Friday.


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## Alex321 (21 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> Out of interest, which rare earth elements are we talking about? The focus is usually on lithium, nickel, cobalt and manganese but none of these are rare earths (not to say that they don't have their mining and production issues but then so does the extraction and refining of crude oil). Perhaps there are some RE elements I am not aware of used as catalysts, or in trace amounts?



Many current EVs with permanent magnets use things like neodymium and dysprosium as part of those.

There are some around which use induction motors instead, which don't use RE, and attempts are being made to reduce the reliance on them for the permanent magnet versions.

https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/rare-earths-in-evs-problems-solutions-and-what-is-actually-happening/25071


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## figbat (21 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Many current EVs with permanent magnets use things like neodymium and dysprosium as part of those.
> 
> There are some around which use induction motors instead, which don't use RE, and attempts are being made to reduce the reliance on them for the permanent magnet versions.
> 
> https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/rare-earths-in-evs-problems-solutions-and-what-is-actually-happening/25071



Good steer - I was blinkered on batteries and forgot about the magnets in the motors.


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## KnittyNorah (21 Sep 2022)

FishFright said:


> So that's ICE cars out , their electronics are full of them . As is whatever device you posted this from.



Yes, I know. I wouldn't say they are _full_ of them - but there are other common minerals there, and everywhere, that concern me too. That is the nature of much of technology, unfortunately.

I don't claim that anything I currently do is 'green'. Significantly green*ER *than the common everyday practices of many people in both my peer group and others, perhaps, is the most I feel I can claim. I try to remain _aware _at all times, though, which usually enables me to take what I hope is the greener option when a choice is available.


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## KnittyNorah (21 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> Out of interest, which rare earth elements are we talking about? The focus is usually on lithium, nickel, cobalt and manganese but none of these are rare earths (not to say that they don't have their mining and production issues but then so does the extraction and refining of crude oil). Perhaps there are some RE elements I am not aware of used as catalysts, or in trace amounts?



@Alex321 answered. 
Concern is widely acknowledged and expressed about current mining practices for cobalt and the like; much less widely expressed is concern about rare earth extraction, production and consumption. I try to remain aware - even if it's only a very general awareness - of all areas of concern. Rare earths (which aren't _necessarily_ particularly rare ...) are classed as 'critical materials' so recycling is of definite interest : https://energyindustryreview.com/metals-mining/rare-earth-recycling/


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## CXRAndy (21 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> @Alex321 answered.
> Concern is widely acknowledged and expressed about current mining practices for cobalt and the like; much less widely expressed is concern about rare earth extraction, production and consumption. I try to remain aware - even if it's only a very general awareness - of all areas of concern. Rare earths (which aren't _necessarily_ particularly rare ...) are classed as 'critical materials' so recycling is of definite interest : https://energyindustryreview.com/metals-mining/rare-earth-recycling/



Because posters on this forum typing on a device which most probably has minerals mined, rare metals in the electronics. By doing this you're tacitly accepting the mining of said elements. 

To gripe about one product that has them and not hold up your hands to possessing others is hypocrisy


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## Alex321 (21 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Because posters on this forum typing on a device which most probably has minerals mined, rare metals in the electronics. By doing this you're tacitly accepting the mining of said elements.
> 
> To gripe about one product that has them and not hold up your hands to possessing others is hypocrisy



Not really, when the question is being raised about whether the product is "green".

Whether other products you may own are any better isn't really relevant to that question.


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## KnittyNorah (21 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> To gripe about one product that has them and not hold up your hands to possessing others is hypocrisy



I am perfectly open about owning and using a device - several devices in fact - which uses what might be termed 'dodgy' minerals. Which is why I take an interest in the extraction, production and recycling of such minerals/metals. I try to buy 2nd hand/refurbished if at all possible and dispose of as responsibly as I can, when the time comes. 

My gripe is with people who merely _want_, rather than those who actually_ need_, electronic devices in their widest senses, and especially large. grossly- and multiply-polluting devices such as cars, as I thought I made clear in this post. 

WRT cars, if a person _needs_ a new car, then, if they can afford one, a new e-vehicle will (currently) be a greener option than a new ICE vehicle. 
If they don't need a _new_ car, the greenest option will probably be to keep the one they already have, look after it well and drive it less. If an existing car is not available, or not suitable for use, then - again if they can afford it - the greener option would probably be to buy a second-hand e-vehicle, if they can find an appropriate one. 
If they don't actually _need_ a car at all, but merely _want_ one, there is no green option for them. 
If they have only very occasional need of one, the greenest option would be to hire one, but that may not be convenient. 
Convenient and green (or even green-ish) are not always happy bed-fellows ...
In all cases, whether or not one truly needs a car, or merely wants a car, and whatever the type of vehicle that is being driven, be it a brand spanking new latest-version e-car or an old ICE banger, driving as little, as considerately and as carefully as possible will improve the driver's green credentials. However, I fear that some - even many - people will consider a new e-vehicle gives them carte blanche to drive more, and faster, than they ever did before ... which rather defeats the purpose of 'being green'.


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## All uphill (21 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I am perfectly open about owning and using a device - several devices in fact - which uses what might be termed 'dodgy' minerals. Which is why I take an interest in the extraction, production and recycling of such minerals/metals. I try to buy 2nd hand/refurbished if at all possible and dispose of as responsibly as I can, when the time comes.
> 
> My gripe is with people who merely _want_, rather than those who actually_ need_, electronic devices in their widest senses, and especially large. grossly- and multiply-polluting devices such as cars, as I thought I made clear in this post.
> 
> ...



You say it so well @KnittyNorah 

Spot on.


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## CXRAndy (21 Sep 2022)

I wasn't suggesting folk turn in their ICE vehicles if they are perfectly serviceable. 

Those thinking of get a new, nearly new car. EV should be right up there for choice. 

Not everyone can have an EV at first due to logistics. That doesn't stop many people transitioning to EV. 

In the early days of cars, not everyone could afford or cater for a car, but times and prices will alter to cover the majority.

I know EVs work, we do nearly 40,000 miles every year with them in 4 years of ownership


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## figbat (21 Sep 2022)

Whilst buying a used car may offer an environmental benefit to the new owner, since the environmental cost of production is effectively written off, used cars are only possible as a consequence of people selling them on, usually for a newer replacement. You don't get a healthy supply of used cars, or anything for that matter, without someone further up the chain buying a new replacement. If nobody's buying new cars then nobody gets used ones (save for the small number that become available through death or giving up cars). Can the person passing on a used car claim some of the environmental benefit of doing that to offset the new one, rather than scrapping it?


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## icowden (21 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> WRT cars, if a person _needs_ a new car, then, if they can afford one, a new e-vehicle will (currently) be a greener option than a new ICE vehicle.
> If they don't need a _new_ car, the greenest option will probably be to keep the one they already have, look after it well and drive it less.


It's the second part that's a bit difficult. Depending on how much they drive it may well still be greener to get an EV than continue driving an ICE vehicle if they can afford to do so. Those tail pipe emissions add up quickly.


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## ClichéGuevara (21 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> It's the second part that's a bit difficult. Depending on how much they drive it may well still be greener to get an EV than continue driving an ICE vehicle if they can afford to do so. Those tail pipe emissions add up quickly.



The tail pipe emissions still exist, they're just being produced by the person who bought the 2nd hand car that the EV person traded in.


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## icowden (21 Sep 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The tail pipe emissions still exist, they're just being produced by the person who bought the 2nd hand car that the EV person traded in.


Unless it was scrapped. But ultimately the usual way this works is that the person who bought the 2nd hand car is getting rid of an even worse car. So an ICE car is going to the scrapyard somewhere along the line, more often than not.

When I get my EV I will be selling my 10 year old scenic. It is close to being uneconomical to repair, thus I suspect that whoever buys it will be turning it into spare parts.


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## KnittyNorah (21 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> It's the second part that's a bit difficult. Depending on how much they drive it may well still be greener to get an EV than continue driving an ICE vehicle if they can afford to do so. Those tail pipe emissions add up quickly.



What @ClichéGuevara says, wrt trading it in, and why 'driving it less' has to be an essential part of the equation.


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## Buck (21 Sep 2022)

A lot of the discussion on here is very binary. It is rather more complex than ICE=Bad. EV=Good. More a case of EV better (looking at the lifespan of the vehicle) and I agree with those that say it’s all about reducing use of all things that are more polluting. 

If I buy a new EV, yes there will be an environmental cost but I am confident it will be less than if I were to buy a new ICE car. I read that an EV becomes environmentally “better” than an ICE after around 2 years of ownership offsetting the relatively higher environmental impact to build. 

My current car will be bought by someone and down the chain there will be a car that is no longer viable that is taken off the road. 

Ultimately, we will be forced to go electric but it will not be a short transition. Let’s revisit this thread in a few years and see how far we have gone on the journey.


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## ClichéGuevara (21 Sep 2022)

I think a key question is, is the aim to get people out of cars, or in to electric vehicles? If it's the former, then the public transport and cycling systems need massive improvements and investment. If it's the latter, then the problems associated with vehicles and road building will also need massive investment, and both will have to be done with less tax coming in from the motorist, as well as both having environmental consequences, as will any variations in between.

Presently, the poorer sections of society that can't afford to save money by getting an electric car will pay a disproportionate percentage of the financial and social costs.


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## MrGrumpy (21 Sep 2022)

Well as luck would have it, the wife’s E Class Coupe is in for a recall and service. General manager brought a replacement EQC400 for running about in till it’s ready to be picked up. It’s quite nippy and could see myself in one. I’d need to check the price


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## icowden (21 Sep 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think a key question is, is the aim to get people out of cars, or in to electric vehicles? If it's the former, then the public transport and cycling systems need massive improvements and investment. If it's the latter, then the problems associated with vehicles and road building will also need massive investment, and both will have to be done with less tax coming in from the motorist, as well as both having environmental consequences, as will any variations in between.
> 
> Presently, the poorer sections of society that can't afford to save money by getting an electric car will pay a disproportionate percentage of the financial and social costs.


Yep, can't disagree with anything there. Unfortunately our government has no interest in improving public transport nor investing in green tech. 
When I lived in that there London I didn't need a car. Busses, trains and tubes everywhere. Now I live in Surrey, not so far away, and without a car you are pretty much stuffed.


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## CXRAndy (22 Sep 2022)

This morning, I saw a whole range of full EVs all 22 plates Hyundai, Kia, Skoda, BMW, Audi, Renault and the usual swarm of Tesla's Y X 3 

The uptake is really picking up


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## mjr (22 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> When I lived in that there London I didn't need a car. Busses, trains and tubes everywhere. Now I live in Surrey, not so far away, and without a car you are pretty much stuffed.


I'm reading elsewhere that the much-vaunted new power granted by gov.uk to let other areas take over control of public transport and run it under Transport-for-London-style operator contracts hasn't actually been accompanied by enough funding to do that. There was some competitive bidding process and more than half of areas got no funding, says https://www.route-one.net/news/under-half-of-bsip-submissions-are-funded-in-1-1bn-award/ — and I don't know how many of the 31 funded areas are actually taking back control and how many are just fiddling around the edges by subsidising day passes or electric buses.

So a related question is are we being forced to keep driving instead of enabled to switch to electric public transport?


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## icowden (22 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> So a related question is are we being forced to keep driving instead of enabled to switch to electric public transport?


I'd say yes. There is absolutely no sign that the Government want to do anything to improve public transport. If anything it gets worse and worse. They need to get rid of train and bus franchises, nationalise both and simplify the system. Simple cheaper fares and far less money spaffed to shareholders.


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## Jameshow (22 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I am perfectly open about owning and using a device - several devices in fact - which uses what might be termed 'dodgy' minerals. Which is why I take an interest in the extraction, production and recycling of such minerals/metals. I try to buy 2nd hand/refurbished if at all possible and dispose of as responsibly as I can, when the time comes.
> 
> My gripe is with people who merely _want_, rather than those who actually_ need_, electronic devices in their widest senses, and especially large. grossly- and multiply-polluting devices such as cars, as I thought I made clear in this post.
> 
> ...



Don't forget that ev have a long tailpipe. 

Only less than 50% of electric is green ( as much as carbon fibre wind turbines are!) The rest is gas and occasionally coal!😭😭😭


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## mjr (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Don't forget that ev have a long tailpipe.
> 
> Only less than 50% of electric is green ( as much as carbon fibre wind turbines are!) The rest is gas and occasionally coal!😭😭😭


But green and gas are both better than oil and EVs are much easier to convert to green fuel.


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## mjr (22 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> I'd say yes. There is absolutely no sign that the Government want to do anything to improve public transport. If anything it gets worse and worse. They need to get rid of train and bus franchises, nationalise both and simplify the system. Simple cheaper fares and far less money spaffed to shareholders.


I think nowhere has bus franchises lately and rail franchises have gone. It's still not nationalisation, though. Why would nationalising work any better this time than last? Sort of worked for a while, then cash-starved then sold off as soon as a party thinks they can get away with it.


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## FishFright (22 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> I'm reading elsewhere that the much-vaunted new power granted by gov.uk to let other areas take over control of public transport and run it under Transport-for-London-style operator contracts hasn't actually been accompanied by enough funding to do that. There was some competitive bidding process and more than half of areas got no funding, says https://www.route-one.net/news/under-half-of-bsip-submissions-are-funded-in-1-1bn-award/ — and I don't know how many of the 31 funded areas are actually taking back control and how many are just fiddling around the edges by subsidising day passes or electric buses.
> 
> So a related question is are we being forced to keep driving instead of enabled to switch to electric public transport?



Not quite as bad as their 'levelling up' proposals which come with no funding what so ever.


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## icowden (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Only less than 50% of electric is green ( as much as carbon fibre wind turbines are!) The rest is gas and occasionally coal!😭😭😭


But that is out of the control of the EV owner. That is down to Government to address. Germany has a target of 80% renewable by 2030. China is investing heavily in renewables. New Zealand and Norway are nearly at 100% renewable.

Instead we have a bunch of clowns who want to start fracking and extracting more north sea oil.


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## figbat (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Don't forget that ev have a long tailpipe.
> 
> Only less than 50% of electric is green ( as much as carbon fibre wind turbines are!) The rest is gas and occasionally coal!😭😭😭



As has been said a couple of times upthread, the energy mix for EV is gradually changing in favour of cleaner and more sustainable sources, so over time an EV will become 'greener'. An ICE car will always use 100% hydrocarbon fuel.


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## ClichéGuevara (22 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> As has been said a couple of times upthread, the energy mix for EV is gradually changing in favour of cleaner and more sustainable sources, so over time an EV will become 'greener'. *An ICE car will always use 100% hydrocarbon fuel.*



That's not strictly correct, as there were a number of alternative fuels being investigated prior to the ban, some of which are still progressing. There are also biofuels which alter the timeframe for EV's being less harmful than other types of power.


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## cougie uk (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Don't forget that ev have a long tailpipe.
> 
> Only less than 50% of electric is green ( as much as carbon fibre wind turbines are!) The rest is gas and occasionally coal!😭😭😭



How much of petrol is generated by the sun or wind ? I'd be very surprised if it's not zero...

And as has been said - renewables are increasing year on year. A good thing - no ?


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## Alex321 (22 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How much of petrol is generated by the sun or wind ? I'd be very surprised if it's not zero...


It is fractionally more than zero due to used cooking oil being recycled as biodiesel.

And arguably vegetable oil is generated by the sun 

But of course, you are still burning hydrocarbons there, even if renewable, so still adding the harmful byproducts to the atmosphere.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well as luck would have it, the wife’s E Class Coupe is in for a recall and service. General manager brought a replacement EQC400 for running about in till it’s ready to be picked up. It’s quite nippy and could see myself in one. I’d need to check the price



So not probably what your average punter is buying. However the EQC is based on the GLC , price difference between the two , is approx £20k . From what I can see  . Maybe that differential will come down as time moves on.


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## KnittyNorah (22 Sep 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Don't forget that ev have a long tailpipe.
> 
> Only less than 50% of electric is green ( as much as carbon fibre wind turbines are!) The rest is gas and occasionally coal!😭😭😭



Yes I know. All the more reason for minimising one's usage of EVs along with ICE vehicles, regardless of their supposed green credentials.


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## Gunk (22 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> I'd say yes. There is absolutely no sign that the Government want to do anything to improve public transport. If anything it gets worse and worse. They need to get rid of train and bus franchises, nationalise both and simplify the system. Simple cheaper fares and far less money spaffed to shareholders.



I’m in London all day tomorrow with work, £80 return from Oxford to Paddington (including the Tube) no wonder people use their car.


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## DRM (23 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I’m in London all day tomorrow with work, £80 return from Oxford to Paddington (including the Tube) no wonder people use their car.



But have you seen how much railway staff get paid, it’s no wonder tickets are so expensive


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I’m in London all day tomorrow with work, £80 return from Oxford to Paddington (including the Tube) no wonder people use their car.


You say that but by the time you have paid for petrol / diesel, the ULEZ, the congestion charge and a days parking in Central London, that train ticket is looking like a bargain!!

On a more serious note, if you try doing that trip as a family of 4, then the car is a no-brainer.


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

Incidentally, today there is a really good example of the way that the media seems to report in a way that makes EVs look bad.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62996103


> Tesla ordered to recall more than a million US cars​


What? This must be a major problem right?


> *Tesla is recalling nearly 1.1 million cars in the US because the windows might close too fast and pinch people's fingers.*


Oh, ok - minor problem but that's a lot of cars to bring into service centres, not to mention compensating people whilst their cars are off the road.

Oh hang on...


> Tesla chief executive Elon Musk criticised the use of the term "recall", tweeting: "The terminology is outdated & inaccurate. This is a tiny over-the-air software update. To the best of our knowledge, there have been no injuries." Tesla discovered the problem with the automatic windows during production testing in August.



So wouldn't a better headline / article have been:



> Tesla ordered to roll out a minor software update to more than a million cars, even though they were planning to do it having discovered the problem themselves during routine testing.​


_Unusually in the USA when a car company discovers a fault, they report it to the American regulators who then order them to fix it, even if they were going to do so anyway. Previous recalls have been for rear-view cameras, bonnet latches, seat belt reminders and sound system software. However unlike old fashioned ICE cars, nearly all of the faults have been dealt with seamlessly by providing free over the air software updates, thus demonstrating how quickly and safely EVs can be adjusted._


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## Buck (23 Sep 2022)

But then that wouldn’t be a “good” news story. The press feed on sensationalist rubbish a lot of the time. The next headline could equally be “Petrol and Diesel cars are killing our children” or “Man washing his new Tesla car electrocuted !”


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## figbat (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Incidentally, today there is a really good example of the way that the media seems to report in a way that makes EVs look bad.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62996103
> 
> What? This must be a major problem right?
> ...



Agreed. Typical sensationalism for click-baiting. My EV has an outstanding software update which needs it to go to the dealers. It could either be:

ALL MINI EVs IN SAFETY RECALL DUE TO CRASH FIRE RISK

or

MINI SERVICE BULLETIN ISSUED TO UPDATE HOW CARS REPORT WHAT THEY ARE TO EMERGENCY SERVICES

The crux of it is that the onboard SOS system is not set to flag that it's an EV. It's a service bulletin and has no bearing on every day use, so I'm waiting until it needs to go in for another reason to get it updated, since it means several hours in the dealer and will reset my user profiles. Anybody can find out what car it is from its registration number. I'd love it to happen OTA but most EVs are way behind Tesla on that front.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> You say that but by the time you have paid for petrol / diesel, the ULEZ, the congestion charge and a days parking in Central London, that train ticket is looking like a bargain!!


Lowest fare is £30 day return, bought on the day, if one can travel off peak. It can be slightly cheaper bought in advance and locked to particular trains, but those sell out.



> On a more serious note, if you try doing that trip as a family of 4, then the car is a no-brainer.


Family tickets (2adult+2children) start from £42 day return, on the day. No-brainer comparisons often assume the price for 4 is 4 times the individual price but it often isn't. I hoped the way EV charging cost varies massively might make people more familiar with price ranges for a journey, but it's not happened yet!


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Family tickets (2adult+2children) start from £42 day return, on the day. No-brainer comparisons often assume the price for 4 is 4 times the individual price but it often isn't. I hoped the way EV charging cost varies massively might make people more familiar with price ranges for a journey, but it's not happened yet!



Unfortunately that isn't reliable. At time of looking the Trainline has tickets for £102 peak morning and £89.70 off peak if I wanted to go on Monday.
Yes, if you can plan a month in advance, go off peak, and cross your fingers that the train won't be cancelled, you can get cheaper fares.

Ulez and Congestion = £27.50. Diesel = about £10-£15 each way. So £57.50. JustPark can find me parking in London for between £11 and £16. So £73.
I don't have to cross my fingers, change train, sit with people who might have Covid etc. Just drive and sit in traffic.

If I have an EV, than Ulez and congestion = £0. Electricity = £5 each way tops unless I need to use a supercharger. So it would cost me about £20-£25


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## mjr (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Unfortunately that isn't reliable. At time of looking the Trainline has tickets for £102 peak morning and £89.70 off peak if I wanted to go on Monday.


Never ever trust Trainline. Even when they do deign to sell the correct cheapest ticket, they normally add a booking fee. Use train companies or honest sites like https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ but often a ticket office is best, if yours hasn't been cut back yet.


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Never ever trust Trainline. Even when they do deign to sell the correct cheapest ticket, they normally add a booking fee. Use train companies or honest sites like https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/ but often a ticket office is best, if yours hasn't been cut back yet.



But regardless, the difference just generally isn't that great. Now an example of where it does work...

My parents in law are now a pensioners, but my Mother in Law still works one or two days a week and my Father In Law still attends home games at Chelsea. They live in the New Forest. They used to drive up and stay with my brother in law when needing to be in this area. They now tend to get the train - because their freedom passes make it much more economical to do so.

On the other hand if we visit them, it's cheaper and easier to drive. I didn't mention previously the cost and hassle involved of just getting to the train station also needs to be factored in.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> On the other hand if we visit them, it's cheaper and easier to drive.


That's only universally true if the driver's time is worthless and driving a road vehicle is considered somehow easier than sitting on a seat. Sometimes driving may still be cheaper, but rarely easier. There seems to be huge societal blind spots about the difficulty of driving, where it's almost taboo to say it's not simple.


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## cougie uk (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> That's only universally true if the driver's time is worthless and driving a road vehicle is considered somehow easier than sitting on a seat. Sometimes driving may still be cheaper, but rarely easier. There seems to be huge societal blind spots about the difficulty of driving, where it's almost taboo to say it's not simple.



Also the cost. If you haven't got a car in the first place...


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## KnittyNorah (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Lowest fare is £30 day return, bought on the day, if one can travel off peak. It can be slightly cheaper bought in advance and locked to particular trains, but those sell out.
> 
> 
> Family tickets (2adult+2children) start from £42 day return, on the day. No-brainer comparisons often assume the price for 4 is 4 times the individual price but it often isn't. I hoped the way EV charging cost varies massively might make people more familiar with price ranges for a journey, but it's not happened yet!



Yes, 'standard' individual-journey rail pricing is very misleading. 
I organise 'eco day trips and visits' for a local group (eco because we use public transport LOL!). Every visit I've planned so far, I've found worthwhile discounts are available on train services. Even on a service where very few discounts were available, and no advance fares at all, by buying two off-peak returns at a time, I got a 'duo' discount ...


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Yes, 'standard' individual-journey rail pricing is very misleading.
> I organise 'eco day trips and visits' for a local group (eco because we use public transport LOL!). Every visit I've planned so far, I've found worthwhile discounts are available on train services. Even on a service where very few discounts were available, and no advance fares at all, by buying two off-peak returns at a time, I got a 'duo' discount ...



I'm not sure that a public transport model where you only get the best price if you have a degree of expertise is the way forward though...


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> That's only universally true if the driver's time is worthless and driving a road vehicle is considered somehow easier than sitting on a seat.


So my time is better spent driving 20 mins to the station, walking 5 mins from the car park to the platform, waiting on the platform for 15 mins, then sitting on the train for 66 mins (total 101mins) rather than walking out of my front door, putting the bags and kids in the car and driving for an hour and 20 mins (off peak) or a likely max of 120 mins during rush hour.

I don't find driving particularly stressful or difficult and an EV makes it even easier. Lane keeping, car following etc.


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## cougie uk (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> So my time is better spent driving 20 mins to the station, walking 5 mins from the car park to the platform, waiting on the platform for 15 mins, then sitting on the train for 66 mins (total 101mins) rather than walking out of my front door, putting the bags and kids in the car and driving for an hour and 20 mins (off peak) or a likely max of 120 mins during rush hour.
> 
> I don't find driving particularly stressful or difficult and an EV makes it even easier. Lane keeping, car following etc.



All that waiting adds up. You could be working remotely.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> All that waiting adds up. You could be working remotely.


Or I can work for most of that waiting, so my time actually spent on travelling is maybe the 20 minutes cycling to the station, not the 1h20 spent concentrating on driving where I could pretty easily kill someone, possibly myself, if I make mistakes. Hey, is it easier to kill someone with an EV because they're usually heavier and the motor won't stall?


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## mjr (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> I'm not sure that a public transport model where you only get the best price if you have a degree of expertise is the way forward though...


It's not great, but the greater degree of expertise to get the best price from motoring doesn't seem to be a barrier.


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> It's not great, but the greater degree of expertise to get the best price from motoring doesn't seem to be a barrier.


Eh? You either have a car or you don't. Then you drive it from A to B usually using google to tell you where to drive. Petrol and Diesel prices are pretty uniform (or electricity if you have an EV). Your car takes 5 or 7 people. Where is the complexity?


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> All that waiting adds up. You could be working remotely.


But in this scenario we have to get from Oxford to Paddington. You could also be living your best life on a luxury yacht but that doesn't add to the discussion either...


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## CXRAndy (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Or I can work for most of that waiting, so my time actually spent on travelling is maybe the 20 minutes cycling to the station, not the 1h20 spent concentrating on driving where I could pretty easily kill someone, possibly myself, if I make mistakes. Hey, is it easier to kill someone with an EV because they're usually heavier and the motor won't stall?



EVs don't usually roll when you aren't pressing any pedals. They auto hold on the steepest slopes. EVs invariably come with active anti collision features.

So unless you're a jihadi nutjob looking to wipe out a pedestrian, EVs are extremely safe.


I find driving so relaxing in an EV, lots of safety built-in with lane centering, active auto cruise, steering and anti collision. 

A newish feature I noticed on my Model S when on autocruise, the car actively slows down for twisty road sections and then speeds up when the road straightens. If there is a car in front it will of course follow at a safe distance, but again will adapt to road layout automatically


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## classic33 (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Incidentally, today there is a really good example of the way that the media seems to report in a way that makes EVs look bad.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-62996103
> 
> What? This must be a major problem right?
> ...


A problem with electric Windows isn't just something that can happen on an electric vehicle. It can happen on any vehicle fitted with them.

On the other hand, it's the first vehicle safety recall I've seen due to windows closing too fast.


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## Baldy (23 Sep 2022)

Parachuting, did a lot in my youth but haven't jumped in thirty years.

Get married, still single after sixty-five years why break the habit of a lifetime.

Grow long hair.


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## All uphill (23 Sep 2022)

Baldy said:


> Parachuting, did a lot in my youth but haven't jumped in thirty years.
> 
> Get married, still single after sixty-five years why break the habit of a lifetime.
> 
> Grow long hair.



I think you may have parachuted into the wrong thread.


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## KnittyNorah (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> I'm not sure that a public transport model where you only get the best price if you have a degree of expertise is the way forward though...



No it clearly isn't. And neither is any transport model which requires a person to be able to afford and to drive a car, whatever their abilities or wishes, the way forward, either. 

However, showing a person how to best use a ticketing system is somewhat cheaper, easier and safer than is providing a severely visually impaired person (such as I was for several years), or a convicted drunk driver, or someone living with active epilepsy, with a car and the ability to drive it ... 

A good, comprehensive and affordable public transport system enables everyone to travel more easily and enjoyably, whatever their restraints or requirements may be.


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## classic33 (23 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> No it clearly isn't. And neither is any transport model which requires a person to be able to afford and to drive a car, whatever their abilities or wishes, the way forward, either.
> 
> However, showing a person how to best use a ticketing system is somewhat cheaper, easier and safer than is providing a severely visually impaired person (such as I was for several years), or a convicted drunk driver, *or someone living with active epilepsy*, with a car and the ability to drive it ...
> 
> A good, comprehensive and affordable public transport system enables everyone to travel more easily and enjoyably, whatever their restraints or requirements may be.


The car is only one part, the license to drive is another. The latter requires a doctors approval/certification that the person applying has been seizure free for a year.

Or they could do what more seem to be doing across the board, and ignore the rules just so they can drive, illegally.


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> A good, comprehensive and affordable public transport system enables everyone to travel more easily and enjoyably, whatever their restraints or requirements may be.


I entirely agree. Unfortunately the Government isn't interested in doing this. Thus for most people who own a car it is cheaper and more effective to use the car. Once we get a proper Government this might change. As it stands, an EV is an absolute no brainer if you can afford one.


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> However, showing a person how to best use a ticketing system is somewhat cheaper, easier and safer than is providing a severely visually impaired person (such as I was for several years), or a convicted drunk driver, or someone living with active epilepsy, with a car and the ability to drive it ...


But we aren't interested in exceptions.

If we are comparing public transport with cars, at the moment for the majority of people the car tends to win. The fault of this lies squarely with Government who have made public transport measurably worse whilst making it cheaper and easier to drive.


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## classic33 (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> I entirely agree. Unfortunately the Government isn't interested in doing this. Thus for most people who own a car it is cheaper and more effective to use the car. Once we get a proper Government this might change. As it stands, an EV is an absolute no brainer if you can afford one.


You're at odds with yourself in this answer.
_"Thus for most people who own a car it is cheaper and more effective to use the car."_
_"an EV is an absolute no brainer if you can afford one."_


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## Baldy (23 Sep 2022)

All uphill said:


> I think you may have parachuted into the wrong thread.



Woops!!


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## icowden (23 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> You're at odds with yourself in this answer.
> _"Thus for most people who own a car it is cheaper and more effective to use the car."
> "an EV is an absolute no brainer if you can afford one."_



How so?


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Or I can work for most of that waiting,


To use your own phrase "That is not niversal".

We all have different needs and possibilities. Some of us can work on the train, many can't.

And when we are talking about journeys for other purposes, being able to work is irrelevant, though of course many people will find the train more comfortable, and can indulge in more pleasurable activities like reading.


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## Alex321 (23 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> You're at odds with yourself in this answer.
> _"Thus for most people who own a car it is cheaper and more effective to use the car."
> "an EV is an absolute no brainer if you can afford one."_



How is that being at odds with himself.

An EV is one more of those examples of something that is cheaper if you can afford it. Over the lifetime of the vehicle, the total cost of ownership will usually be less than owning a similar ICE vehicle. But you have to be able to afford the up-front cost, which is quite a bit higher.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Sep 2022)

Alex321 said:


> How is that being at odds with himself.
> 
> An EV is one more of those examples of something that is cheaper if you can afford it. Over the lifetime of the vehicle, the total cost of ownership will usually be less than owning a similar ICE vehicle. But you have to be able to afford the up-front cost, which is quite a bit higher.



See my post further up on our loner Merc , not your run of the mill purchase but none the less £20k difference in book price ! EVs need to drop in price something that is not happening right now.


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## mjr (23 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> Eh? You either have a car or you don't. Then you drive it from A to B usually using google to tell you where to drive. Petrol and Diesel prices are pretty uniform (or electricity if you have an EV). Your car takes 5 or 7 people. Where is the complexity?


Settings and driving style makes a difference to the energy consumption, and recharging prices vary a lot from 5p/kWh (Octopus Go lowest) to £1/kWh (Osprey). If you call that simple to manage, well!


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## Chislenko (24 Sep 2022)

Gunk said:


> I’m not blinkered to need to change, I’m just reluctant to change, I drive 20,000 business miles a year so with the current infrastructure it doesn’t quite work and colleagues who have made the change are finding it challenging, especially longer trips.
> 
> however with the expanding ULEZ zone in Oxford we are thinking of swapping Mrs Gunks Golf GTD for an eGolf or BMW i3, as it will be perfect for short trips. However I’m still not convinced that EV’s are quite the planet saver they claim to be, but that just my suburban, narrow minded view.



Just out of interest Gunk, my Euro 6 Diesel is ULEZ exempt, if you can find such an animal.


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## KnittyNorah (24 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> The car is only one part, the license to drive is another. The latter requires a doctors approval/certification that the person applying has been seizure free for a year.
> 
> Or they could do what more seem to be doing across the board, and ignore the rules just so they can drive, illegally.



Yes. I know - a friend has just got her licence back after an isolated seizure (brought on by a short period of exceptionally severe stress, everyone was certain) following years of perfect seizure control. 
If technology hadn't advanced, I would still be not only forbidden to drive, but unable to cycle either. eyesight - or lack thereof - being a very effective barrier to getting a licence, as well as to even starting the car, never mind steering!. 
And of course there are the people who, despite passing their test and legally being permitted to drive, know full well they are not good drivers, however hard they try, and would really prefer not to need to drive - it is made much too difficult for those folk to take what they know is the responsible decision.


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## CXRAndy (24 Sep 2022)

When EVs become autonomous driving, then those shite and infirm drivers will be more able to get about


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## Gunk (24 Sep 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Just out of interest Gunk, my Euro 6 Diesel is ULEZ exempt, if you can find such an animal.



Both my cars are Diesel and Euro 6 and both are driven in to London regularly, however for work I prefer the train, gives me time to prepare for meetings.


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## Jameshow (24 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> When EVs become autonomous driving, then those shite and infirm drivers will be more able to get about



Hopefully the voice will say don't be a Richard and put on the brakes!!


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## KnittyNorah (24 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> When EVs become autonomous driving, then those shite and infirm drivers will be more able to get about



Only if autonomous EVs become available either at bargain rates which all can easily afford, and/or on production of the equivalent of a senior or disabled person's bus pass or rail card ...


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## cougie uk (24 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Only if autonomous EVs become available either at bargain rates which all can easily afford, and/or on production of the equivalent of a senior or disabled person's bus pass or rail card ...



Should be as cheap as taxis at least ? Able to run almost 24/7 ?


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## DRM (24 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Only if autonomous EVs become available either at bargain rates which all can easily afford, and/or on production of the equivalent of a senior or disabled person's bus pass or rail card ...



Motability?


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## KnittyNorah (24 Sep 2022)

DRM said:


> Motability?



Motability's requirements are ... onerous, to say the least. 
It requires that you are awarded at least the higher or enhanced rate mobility component of DLA or (nowadays) PIP or (in Scotland) ADP, so that would be of no use to anyone who is not entitled (as 'assessed' by the liars and rotters at whichever scam artist business is conducting the judgements nowadays) and is not something one can apply for past State Pension Age. So it is no use to anyone suffering any of the (sadly-common) independent-mobility-limiting conditions of older age ...


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## KnittyNorah (24 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Should be as cheap as taxis at least ? Able to run almost 24/7 ?



Cheaper than taxis, and _much_ more reliable/accessible. 'Taxis' is a very low level of provision to aim for.

The frequency with which just people who use guide dogs are refused service or - literally - thrown out of taxis, demonstrates this and who is to say that a fleet of autonomous vehicles would be any better. They'd probably be worse, as they could be maliciously programmed to slam the door shut on a guide dog's head or tip people out of wheelchairs.

All that said, we really have no idea what these fleets of autonomous vehicles will be like or how they will be operated, but if the past few hundred years of provision for the differently-abled and those with any sort of deterioration or disability associated with illness, injury, or age are anything to go by, anyone who deviates from what society deems to be 'healthy and normal' will continue to be disadvantaged and discriminated against - a mere afterthought in society who must be catered for reluctantly, minimally and with irritation and the expectation that they will be eternally grateful ...


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## Buck (24 Sep 2022)

I don’t think this has been posted before but it extended charging for those without a driveway. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-62714543


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## icowden (25 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Cheaper than taxis, and _much_ more reliable/accessible. 'Taxis' is a very low level of provision to aim for.
> 
> The frequency with which just people who use guide dogs are refused service or - literally - thrown out of taxis, demonstrates this and who is to say that a fleet of autonomous vehicles would be any better. They'd probably be worse, as they could be maliciously programmed to slam the door shut on a guide dog's head or tip people out of wheelchairs.


 It's people that are rude, impatient, intolerant etc. An AI will just wait for you to get in. Malicious programming to that level is very difficult. Of course they *could* form a collective, run everyone over and take over the planet, but it does seem quite unlikely.


> All that said, we really have no idea what these fleets of autonomous vehicles will be like or how they will be operated, but if the past few hundred years of provision for the differently-abled and those with any sort of deterioration or disability associated with illness, injury, or age are anything to go by, anyone who deviates from what society deems to be 'healthy and normal' will continue to be disadvantaged and discriminated against


So we shouldn't bother? Is that what you are suggesting? I'm more of a glass half full sort of person.


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## DRM (25 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Motability's requirements are ... onerous, to say the least.
> It requires that you are awarded at least the higher or enhanced rate mobility component of DLA or (nowadays) PIP or (in Scotland) ADP, so that would be of no use to anyone who is not entitled (as 'assessed' by the liars and rotters at whichever scam artist business is conducting the judgements nowadays) and is not something one can apply for past State Pension Age. So it is no use to anyone suffering any of the (sadly-common) independent-mobility-limiting conditions of older age ...



But it’s not stopping anyone with motability getting an EV at renewal time, there’s still a lot of them out there, and it’s probably one thing that’s kept car dealerships going


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## CXRAndy (25 Sep 2022)

The demand for EV is incredibly high. When I traded in our Nissan Leaf 40kW with 70,000 miles 

. It sold in a flash from the dealer.


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## KnittyNorah (25 Sep 2022)

DRM said:


> But it’s not stopping anyone with motability getting an EV at renewal time, there’s still a lot of them out there, and it’s probably one thing that’s kept car dealerships going



It's also not in any way _whatsoever_, a replacement or substitute for a decent public transport system as it is so very, very restricted.


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## DRM (25 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> It's also not in any way _whatsoever_, a replacement or substitute for a decent public transport system as it is so very, very restricted.



In some ways it’s better for a person with a disability to at least have a blue badge, it means you can park on a double yellow for 3 hours, use spaces placed to make life easier etc, even if you can’t drive, you can have a friend/relative drive you, but public transport in the UK is a joke, unless you live in London, who use our money to pay for public transport funding and everyone else can go to hell in a handcart


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## icowden (25 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> It's also not in any way _whatsoever_, a replacement or substitute for a decent public transport system as it is so very, very restricted.


I'm not sure that anyone suggested that. The original point was that public transport was very expensive when compared to the car. We all agree that public transport is poorly run, over priced and generally failing (partly due to the pandemic, but mostly due to longstanding lack of funding).

However, as it stands the car is often a cheaper choice. In the future there is a possibility that networked fleets of robocars will be cheaper to use than public transport. It may be that a robotaxi is a cheap way to get to the train station or airport as part of a longer journey. Whether we like it or not, EVs are the future and Musk has been a key catalyst in transforming the world from burning fossil fuels to a greener alternative. 

There is still a long way to go.


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## KnittyNorah (25 Sep 2022)

DRM said:


> In some ways it’s better for a person with a disability to at least have a blue badge, it means you can park on a double yellow for 3 hours, use spaces placed to make life easier etc, even if you can’t drive, you can have a friend/relative drive you, but public transport in the UK is a joke, unless you live in London, who use our money to pay for public transport funding and everyone else can go to hell in a handcart


I disagree, people with disabilities want to do things _independently_ like everyone else does - at least I did when I was severely visually impaired - and not forever rely on friends or relatives if they are unable to drive. And what about people who don't have friends or relatives who are able to drive, or willing to drop things at a moment's notice and take their disabled relative to wherever they want or need to go? 

In any case, the advantages of a blue badge vary somewhat according to where you live and according to where you travel (even within a constituent nation of the UK) as different councils and organisations offer different 'perks', and, depending again on where you live, may be either easy, or very difficult, to acquire.

The Great Wen and many of its surrounding areas have forever drained the rest of the country of money and investment, and I foresee nothing changing. Some retired Londoners came on a walking holiday to the little village where I used to live and when they got on the bus from the village at 9:20am to go to the start of that day's walk, they were all most indignant at having to pay for it.


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## icowden (25 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I disagree, people with disabilities want to do things _independently_ like everyone else does - at least I did when I was severely visually impaired - and not forever rely on friends or relatives if they are unable to drive... In any case, the advantages of a blue badge vary somewhat according to where you live and according to where you travel (even within a constituent nation of the UK) as different councils and organisations offer different 'perks', and, depending again on where you live, may be either easy, or very difficult, to acquire.


So essentially very cheap self-driving cars would be a godsend to those with mobility issues.


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## Buck (25 Sep 2022)

Perhaps it’s just me but I do feel we have gone a little off topic from electric cars to public transport; blue badges etc.


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## KnittyNorah (25 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> So essentially very cheap self-driving cars would be a godsend to those with mobility issues.



Yes they would. Don't forget, though, that people with mobility issues are each just as different in their requirements as everyone else in the world, with the addition of different requirements for different mobility issues. As long as these cheap autonomous vehicles are _accessible_ to the majority of people with mobility issues, as well as affordable, they'll be an excellent solution for many people, but the accessibility might well be the sticking point.


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## gbb (25 Sep 2022)

I just watched an advert for some EV or other and in that moment, I realised why I, and as an extension of that, why perhaps many are dubious, anti, suspicious...because there's a massive inequality with them. I will never, ever be able to charge one from my house, as is the case for millions. And as such, I will always and forever be denied a cheap way of operating them. Solar panels, even if I had them would be useless, I cannot use it to charge a car
That creates such a deep inequality that I don't see how it can be overcome. I would always have to pay more to run a car....as would millions.


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## icowden (25 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> I just watched an advert for some EV or other and in that moment, I realised why I, and as an extension of that, why perhaps many are dubious, anti, suspicious...because there's a massive inequality with them. I will never, ever be able to charge one from my house, as is the case for millions. And as such, I will always and forever be denied a cheap way of operating them.


This is the next problem to solve. Companies are already working at it. This is Pod-point's take:
https://pod-point.com/electric-car-news/electric-car-no-driveway

SO you *can* own an EV without a driveway.


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## icowden (25 Sep 2022)

Buck said:


> Perhaps it’s just me but I do feel we have gone a little off topic from electric cars to public transport; blue badges etc.


The topic is "are we being forced to go electric". Public transport is part of that argument. If we don't have good public transport we need a car, and if we need a car...


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## cougie uk (25 Sep 2022)

gbb said:


> I just watched an advert for some EV or other and in that moment, I realised why I, and as an extension of that, why perhaps many are dubious, anti, suspicious...because there's a massive inequality with them. I will never, ever be able to charge one from my house, as is the case for millions. And as such, I will always and forever be denied a cheap way of operating them. Solar panels, even if I had them would be useless, I cannot use it to charge a car
> That creates such a deep inequality that I don't see how it can be overcome. I would always have to pay more to run a car....as would millions.



Unless your employer had low cost charging? 

My local authority has lampost charging. It's not fast but it's free. 
Tesco has free charging too. 

Let's face it though we are never going to get everyone on the same footing. 

I'm sure there's lots of people who can't afford a car of any description.


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## Jameshow (25 Sep 2022)

I have a client with a electric mobility car who parks in Aldi and puts in 14kwh over the two hours he's in the car park. Has a number of free charging places he does it!


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## classic33 (25 Sep 2022)

icowden said:


> The topic is "are we being forced to go electric". Public transport is part of that argument. If we don't have good public transport we need a car, and if we need a car...


You have the option of walking, or maybe even cycling.

Cars are not "the" only option in all of this.


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## gbb (25 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Unless your employer had low cost charging?
> 
> My local authority has lampost charging. It's not fast but it's free.
> Tesco has free charging too.
> ...



You'd (I'd) be hopefully that such schemes extend.
No, my employer doesn't.
Asda here for instance have charging points, they've been taped up for months, out of use. 
Everyone who can afford a ICE car atm is on more or less the same footing, we all buy fuel at more or less the same price, the future with EVs could threaten that status quo. That should never be allowed to happen 

There is a monumentally long way to go yet tbf.


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## fossyant (25 Sep 2022)

I've said this before, we need more city cars that are leccy, and affordable.

Took the Aygo into Manchester today. On a SUNDAY ! Parked up in a little space ! Our normal sized cars would have been an ass to park in the surface car park, and I am an anti door ding owner. My wife spotted two spaces that said 'small cars only' and said - 'who would park there - I said 'this'.... we parked in a normal space as the Merc driver missed the lines.... 

If someone can give us a leccy Aygo/C1 equivalent, at not stupid money, I'd buy.... Please Toyota/Pug/Citroen......


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## KnittyNorah (26 Sep 2022)

classic33 said:


> You have the option of walking, or maybe even cycling.
> 
> Cars are not "the" only option in all of this.



but not everyone who can't - for whatever reason - drive a car, can cycle or walk. Public transport is needed more than ever before if we are to seriously attempt to reduce the risk to the planet in a timely manner.


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> but not everyone who can't - for whatever reason - drive a car, can cycle or walk. Public transport is needed more than ever before if we are to seriously attempt to reduce the risk to the planet in a timely manner.



That isnt going to happen anytime soon from central government. 

Reduce car use, use the least polluting transport available for your needs, actively reduce your carbon footprint, insualtion, renewables etc. walk or cycle.


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## youngoldbloke (26 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Unless your employer had low cost charging?
> 
> My local authority has lampost charging. It's not fast but it's free.
> Tesco has free charging too.
> ...


How long is free (or subsidised) charging going to continue? You cannot count on a parking space outside your own property - you have no right to anyway. Street lighting in my last village was at eaves level. A conservation area, hard enough to put in double glazing let alone 'pod-points'. I'm not against EVs but issues around charging need to be resolved.


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> How long is free (or subsidised) charging going to continue? You cannot count on a parking space outside your own property - you have no right to anyway. Street lighting in my last village was at eaves level. A conservation area, hard enough to put in double glazing let alone 'pod-points'. I'm not against EVs but issues around charging need to be resolved.



If the car doesn't ever move then it doesn't need charging. 
If it's used then we just need to ensure it goes past or to charging points. 
Workplaces. Shops. Attractions. Coffee shops. 

It shouldn't be too difficult. 


If you don't have an EV you probably won't have even noticed the numbers of chargers already here.


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## Chislenko (26 Sep 2022)

Some mixed reactions here about a trip to Anglesey.

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowT...arging_points-Anglesey_North_Wales_Wales.html


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## MrGrumpy (26 Sep 2022)

Heard on the radio this morning , that running an EV could be more expensive than running ICE vehicle at the moment if using public charging !

Express was the only recent link I could find 

https://www.express.co.uk/life-styl...ts-petrol-diesel-record-prices-more-expensive


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Some mixed reactions here about a trip to Anglesey.
> 
> https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowT...arging_points-Anglesey_North_Wales_Wales.html



Without looking into it deeply - it doesn't look that bad from Zap Map.


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## youngoldbloke (26 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If the car doesn't ever move then it doesn't need charging.
> If it's used then we just need to ensure it goes past or to charging points.
> Workplaces. Shops. Attractions. Coffee shops.
> 
> ...



I've noticed very few chargers generally, and only 2 or 3 in supermarket carparks, when they have them. Fine with the relatively few EVs on the road at the moment. I also think it's very naive to imagine that charging will continue to be free or subsidised, especially with energy prices increasing and the inevitable increase in demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of energy for running an EV increased to match or even exceed the fuel costs of running an ICE vehicle when EVs are widely adopted. Then there is the question of the Government's income from VED, and taxes on petrol and diesel sales.


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Heard on the radio this morning , that running an EV could be more expensive than running ICE vehicle at the moment if using public charging !
> 
> Express was the only recent link I could find
> 
> https://www.express.co.uk/life-styl...ts-petrol-diesel-record-prices-more-expensive



That's because they've found the fastest and most expensive chargers to fill up from. 
My electric is less than 1/10th of the price.


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> I've noticed very few chargers generally, and only 2 or 3 in supermarket carparks, when they have them. Fine with the relatively few EVs on the road at the moment. I also think it's very naive to imagine that charging will continue to be free or subsidised, especially with energy prices increasing and the inevitable increase in demand. I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of energy for running an EV increased to match or even exceed the fuel costs of running an ICE vehicle when EVs are widely adopted. Then there is the question of the Government's income from VED, and taxes on petrol and diesel sales.



If electric costs rise to the price of petrol then charging cars will be the least of our worries. Nobody will be able to pay their utility bills. 

I'm sure ved will come in somehow but that's chicken feed compared to anything else.


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## fossyant (26 Sep 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Some mixed reactions here about a trip to Anglesey.
> 
> https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowT...arging_points-Anglesey_North_Wales_Wales.html



North Wales is pretty poor for charging. I was asking one of the chaps on our caravan site about charging, and he said he doesn't. Drives there and back on a charge - doesn't use the car much whilst in North Wales though, which we would do.


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> North Wales is pretty poor for charging. I was asking one of the chaps on our caravan site about charging, and he said he doesn't. Drives there and back on a charge - doesn't use the car much whilst in North Wales though, which we would do.



Don't you have electric hookups for the caravans anyway ? Can't you charge there ?


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## fossyant (26 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Don't you have electric hookups for the caravans anyway ? Can't you charge there ?



You'd blow the circuit breaker - very sensitive to load. A kettle and a microwave on will trip it - this is in a static.


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> How long is free (or subsidised) charging going to continue?


Free charging is a perk, not a right. Supermarkets are doing it, in the knowledge users will buy their produce. Charge at home if you have off street parking.


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> You'd blow the circuit breaker - very sensitive to load. A kettle and a microwave on will trip it - this is in a static.



It all depends on the quality of the site. I've taken 100kW via a plug on a static caravan sight. All drawn at 8 Amps- parked up whilst we walked and cycled around


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## roubaixtuesday (26 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Express was the only recent link I could find



I've no idea on the veracity of the claim, other than if it's in an Express headline it's almost certainly either untrue or highly misleading.


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## classic33 (26 Sep 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I've no idea on the veracity of the claim, other than if it's in an Express headline it's almost certainly either untrue or highly misleading.


It's available in different places.
https://www.share-talk.com/electric-cars-will-cost-more-to-operate-than-petrol/


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## Jameshow (26 Sep 2022)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I've no idea on the veracity of the claim, other than if it's in an Express headline it's almost certainly either untrue or highly misleading.



The Express had the headline the Queen has died I believe ...?


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

The point is on a day to day basis 95% of all car journeys are less than 35 miles per day.

Vast majority will rarely do long drives and will charge at home, where it is anything between 5p to 25p per kWatt to charge . 

Also these doom and gloom headlines grabbers

The huge amount of zero C02 emissions savings using an EV compared to C02, NOX particulates being pumped out by an ICE 

So another negative, when it only effect a few driver's


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

If you want to know locations of just about every charge point, the power capacity in the UK


Zap Map
They're literally everywhere 








This doesn't include every household with a plug socket


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## figbat (26 Sep 2022)

Yes, although anybody solely using public fast chargers is doing it wrong!


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## Jody (26 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Vast majority will rarely do long drives and will charge at home, where it is anything between 5p to 25p per kWatt to charge .



5p per KWH?

Mine has just been increased to 33p per KWH (27p before the increase)


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## figbat (26 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> 5p per KWH?
> 
> Mine has just been increased to 33p per KWH (27p before the increase)



34.22 p/kWh for me from next month. ☹️


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## Jody (26 Sep 2022)

figbat said:


> 34.22 p/kWh for me from next month. ☹️



We'll have to run an extension from @cougie uk 's house


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> We'll have to run an extension from @cougie uk 's house



Going up to 7.5p next week damnit


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## Jody (26 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Going up to 7.5p next week damnit


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## MrGrumpy (26 Sep 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If electric costs rise to the price of petrol then charging cars will be the least of our worries. Nobody will be able to pay their utility bills.
> 
> I'm sure ved will come in somehow but that's chicken feed compared to anything else.



Were have you been we were heading there !! Until the recent announcements on another friggen cap !! Heading to a £1 kilowatt ! So yes charging/ driving a car would have been a moot point , it was never leaving its parking spot !


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## SpokeyDokey (26 Sep 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Were have you been we were heading there !! Until the recent announcements on another friggen cap !! Heading to a £1 kilowatt ! So yes charging/ driving a car would have been a moot point , it was never leaving its parking spot !



Re: another announcement re cap.

Which one was this? Wondering if I have missed something.

Our daytime rate is due to go up to 34.8p shortly.


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

Jody said:


> 5p per KWH?
> 
> Mine has just been increased to 33p per KWH (27p before the increase)



I'm still on Octopus go till November 5.5p per kW for 5 hours overnight. I can charge in 4 hours having 3 phase


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## icowden (26 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I'm still on Octopus go till November 5.5p per kW for 5 hours overnight. I can charge in 4 hours having 3 phase


Show off!


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## mjr (26 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> If you want to know locations of just about every charge point, the power capacity in the UK
> 
> 
> Zap Map
> ...


But does include chargers awaiting fixes for days?


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> But does include chargers awaiting fixes for days?



If you look at the live page, it will tell you when a charger was last used and whether the users successful in a charge. 

Zap Map encourage users to leave reviews, so to help others and shame networks to sort out their faulty charge stations . When we only had the Nissan, I would always leave a positive or negative review on Zap map


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## icowden (26 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> But does include chargers awaiting fixes for days?


Yep. And as the number of EVs on the road increases, the more pressure will be put on those providers who don't fix their chargers. They will also lose money as people will prefer to use points from reliable providers.


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

*I tend to go for chargers that only accept contactless with no registration or app*


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## mjr (26 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> If you look at the live page, it will tell you when a charger was last used and whether the users successful in a charge.


Four of the first five I clicked were unsuccessful chargers, so I don't think the map pins give a realistic impression of availability. 

Also, it doesn't seem like public shame is getting chargers fixed very well.


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## MrGrumpy (26 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Four of the first five I clicked were unsuccessful chargers, so I don't think the map pins give a realistic impression of availability.
> 
> Also, it doesn't seem like public shame is getting chargers fixed very well.



Same folk who only charge at home , vehemently defend the public charging network which seeks rotten and expensive. All I get told is if you drive a Tesla no probs , anything else and you’re at the mercy of the rest !


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

mjr said:


> Four of the first five I clicked were unsuccessful chargers, so I don't think the map pins give a realistic impression of availability.
> 
> Also, it doesn't seem like public shame is getting chargers fixed very well.



I agree it doesn't look good. The only company I tend to use outside of Tesla is the Instavolt network.

This is why Tesla are a country mile in front of the others. Most of their popular sites have 10 or more working chargers. You will be lucky to get two from any other charger company. Tesla(UK) as of April 2022, has 880 superchargers, I dont know how many destination chargers they have-probably thousands, due to individual destinations investing to attract customers. 

That said I don't stay at accommodations that do not provide a minimum at 7kW facilities if I'm driving.


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## Jenkins (26 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> If you want to know locations of just about every charge point, the power capacity in the UK
> 
> 
> Zap Map
> ...



I've just looked at the map for my local town of Felixstowe and there are a total of 6 charge points. 2 of these are domestic chargers fitted to the owner's property so can be excluded. 1 is on Felixstowe Dock so of no use to the general public. Another is at the Morrisons supermarket, but shows both charge points out of use. This leave a single public charger in the car park of the town centre Co-Op and another (which I think has 2 charge points not the 1 shown) on a public car park near the seafront. Nothing in the 3 town centre car parks, or any of the other seafront car parks at all.

That's a maximum of 3 publically available charge points for the main town and the surrounding villages.


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## CXRAndy (26 Sep 2022)

For nearby villages, charging at home is the most desirable. The public will be mostly and likely used by visiting folk to Felixstowe. Slightly wider view reveals quite a few more available 

Felixstowe is by my definition is rural area albeit small conurbation


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## cougie uk (26 Sep 2022)

I do wonder if the feedbacks are slightly skewed on chargers. I think people are more likely to leave a message if the charger isn't working than if it is ?


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## DRM (27 Sep 2022)

fossyant said:


> You'd blow the circuit breaker - very sensitive to load. A kettle and a microwave on will trip it - this is in a static.



This is very much so on caravan sites, the 2 big clubs sites are a 16 amp supply, some privately owned sites can be as little as 5 to 6 amps, barely enough to run the fridge and the charger for the leisure battery, and can trip even with a very low wattage kettle, this is with a touring pitch mind you


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## MrGrumpy (27 Sep 2022)

Well the loaner Merc EQC was taken to the public charge point today and ……… well it wasn’t working ….. the other user parked up charging had said it’s been like that for a few days now.


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## Chislenko (30 Sep 2022)

Must be more money in Rhyl than people think..

https://www.rhyljournal.co.uk/news/...ctric-vehicle-charging-hub-rhyl-taking-shape/


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## BrumJim (30 Sep 2022)

Jenkins said:


> I've just looked at the map for my local town of Felixstowe and there are a total of 6 charge points. 2 of these are domestic chargers fitted to the owner's property so can be excluded. 1 is on Felixstowe Dock so of no use to the general public. Another is at the Morrisons supermarket, but shows both charge points out of use. This leave a single public charger in the car park of the town centre Co-Op and another (which I think has 2 charge points not the 1 shown) on a public car park near the seafront. Nothing in the 3 town centre car parks, or any of the other seafront car parks at all.
> 
> That's a maximum of 3 publically available charge points for the main town and the surrounding villages.
> View attachment 662517



I would have thought that Felixstowe and other seaside places would be ideal for electric charging. Drive to the town, spend the day at the seaside, and get back into a fully charged car. Don't need super speedy chargers, and even 7kW should be enough for most people.


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## CXRAndy (30 Sep 2022)

We used to go to Hunstanton a fair bit. It was within range of our little Leaf. We wanted to try the only available charger at the time. Stupidily it placed in a carpark that wants to charge you whilst you charged. Never heard of this company and it never worked. Down the road in Kings Lynn was plenty of chargers from Instavolt and others 

Some of these sea side towns are missing an opportunity by not offering


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## youngoldbloke (30 Sep 2022)

BrumJim said:


> I would have thought that Felixstowe and other seaside places would be ideal for electric charging. Drive to the town, spend the day at the seaside, and get back into a fully charged car. Don't need super speedy chargers, and even 7kW should be enough for most people.



You're going to need a hell of a lot of chargers if everyone leaves their cars charging all day while they enjoy themselves!


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## FishFright (30 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> You're going to need a hell of a lot of chargers if everyone leaves their cars charging all day while they enjoy themselves!



That's why there is so much incoming investment in that area . Because it's obvious really.


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## Gunk (30 Sep 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> For nearby villages, charging at home is the most desirable. The public will be mostly and likely used by visiting folk to Felixstowe. Slightly wider view reveals quite a few more available
> 
> Felixstowe is by my definition is rural area albeit small conurbation
> 
> ...



There’s not quite that many here in West Oxfordshire


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## Leedsbusdriver (30 Sep 2022)

I charge my car for free at one of the three Leeds P&R sites. Everyone could too, you just need to know the hack.


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## cougie uk (30 Sep 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> You're going to need a hell of a lot of chargers if everyone leaves their cars charging all day while they enjoy themselves!



But not everyone would. 
For most it would be within range of home. How far would you drive to the beach?


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## StuAff (30 Sep 2022)

For a biker, the glittering future remains tantalisingly out of reach. The infrastructure problem's worse (if it's cold and wet and there's no building to sit in, you stay wet) and both range & charging time are issues even on new bikes. Zero have just launched an electric adventure bike, £24k before options. 115 mile combined range (assuming 50/50 stop-start/70 mph riding), 85 miles motorway. You can have an extended range battery (about 25% more range), or fast charging module- 95% in an hour if the charger has the power- but not both. Bruce Smart (YouTuber Teapot One) just did a 'full monty' (start-Lands End -JOG-Lowestoft-St Davids, in any order, then back to start) on an Energica. Usual time for that ride on a petrol bike, 48 hours or less. Bruce has done it on a Sinnis 125 in 72. Electric: he aimed for, and managed, under 96. Charging cost a lot less than fuel would have done, but he spent more on coffee, food, etc, apart from the time. And he of course had problems finding working chargers, actually getting them to charge…

As for me: my Xmax 400 will do 190 miles on a 13L tank going up and down the motorway at 70, easily over 200 mile range if you knock the speed down a bit (I've done 75-80 mpg or so when the M27 smart motorway works were on). Its 300cc brother is getting just under 100mpg at the moment, best I've done (again when the works were on) 109. Nearest electric scoot equivalent, the BMW CE 04, costs £12k upwards, 85 mile range and nearly two hour charge time with the fast charger option. I've been to Cornwall & Coventry (overnighters), multiple there-and-back trips to London, and Dungeness and back, and I simply couldn't have done those trips on electric. Well, I could, but I'd have spent an awful lot of time sitting around, and had a lot of very, very late nights…


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## cyberknight (13 Nov 2022)

Looks like EVs will be facing VED in a year or two 
https://www.ft.com/content/405467f9-c3cd-4b4d-bc48-2582890e7820


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## DRM (13 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> Looks like EVs will be facing VED in a year or two
> https://www.ft.com/content/405467f9-c3cd-4b4d-bc48-2582890e7820



Can’t read the article unless you’re a subscriber


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## classic33 (13 Nov 2022)

DRM said:


> Can’t read the article unless you’re a subscriber


Some councils to start charging for charging points.
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/electric-car-owners-hit-road-28472652


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## cyberknight (13 Nov 2022)

DRM said:


> Can’t read the article unless you’re a subscriber



sorry i got it via the road cc and search i manahed to read it 1st time
https://road.cc/content/news/road-tax-coming-not-cyclists-297323
try this ?
https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-car-buyers-could-face-car-tax-within-three-years/n25130


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## DRM (13 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Some councils to start charging for charging points.
> https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/electric-car-owners-hit-road-28472652



That’s a very badly written article, it says under the photo that South Lanarkshire to charge for using charging points, then the article says Jeremy Hunt to change the rules to make EV owners pay “road tax” most peculiar as we all know nobody has paid road tax for a long, long time, but it does state the obvious that as EV take up increases, taxation on vehicles drops as the inland revenue are losing out on petrol/diesel taxation as well as the yearly tax on it’s emissions


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## DRM (13 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> sorry i got it via the road cc and search i manahed to read it 1st time
> https://road.cc/content/news/road-tax-coming-not-cyclists-297323
> try this ?
> https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-car-buyers-could-face-car-tax-within-three-years/n25130



Cheers, the thing I read in there is “Could pay VED” “May change the rules” it seems like a lot of what if’s really


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## Jameshow (13 Nov 2022)

I hope they get taxed as ATM it's a tax break for the wealthy. 
I don't think it will put off the uptake of electric vehicles as there is still a discount for electricity over petrol / diesel.


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## icowden (13 Nov 2022)

DRM said:


> Cheers, the thing I read in there is “Could pay VED” “May change the rules” it seems like a lot of what if’s really



I'm guessing it's largely this:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/electric-car-buyers-could-face-car-tax-within-three-years/n25130

Summary: Hunt can see that VED receipts are going down, needs to find a solution to plug the gap, so probably some form of road charging will be implemented at some point.


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## Alex321 (13 Nov 2022)

Jameshow said:


> I hope they get taxed as ATM it's a tax break for the wealthy.
> I don't think it will put off the uptake of electric vehicles as there is still a discount for electricity over petrol / diesel.



At the moment, with tax based on emissions, even some quite large ICE cars pay very little VED.

My diesel Insignia estate is only £20 per year, my wife's Micra is £30 per year. The difference between that sort of amount (after collection costs) and zero for EVs is very little really.


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## cougie uk (13 Nov 2022)

VED really needs to go up. Pointless charging people £20 a year. It probably costs more than that to administer it. 

I'm sure road pricing will be the way forward but that'll be a few years away.


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## classic33 (13 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> VED really needs to go up. Pointless charging people £20 a year. It probably costs more than that to administer it.
> 
> I'm sure road pricing will be the way forward but that'll be a few years away.


I'd say every motorised vehicle on the roads will have a set amount, to be paid yearly.

With it possibly extending to e-assist and electric bicycles.


----------



## cougie uk (13 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> I'd say every motorised vehicle on the roads will have a set amount, to be paid yearly.
> 
> With it possibly extending to e-assist and electric bicycles.



How would it work with bicycles ? No number plates. Are you really going to tie the police up stopping cyclists for their papers to see if they have paid their £10 a year or whatever ?


----------



## classic33 (13 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How would it work with bicycles ? No number plates. Are you really going to tie the police up stopping cyclists for their papers to see if they have paid their £10 a year or whatever ?


One scheme I've heard was along the lines all the details taken at point of sale, similar to how TV sales were done. And these forwarded on. An annual reminder sent out on the basis that you still have the bike, unless you inform them otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent, or you prove that you don't have the bike.


----------



## cougie uk (13 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> One scheme I've heard was along the lines all the details taken at point of sale, similar to how TV sales were done. And these forwarded on. An annual reminder sent out on the basis that you still have the bike, unless you inform them otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent, or you prove that you don't have the bike.



Interesting idea, perhaps that would work but I'd be happier with the extra taxes coming from the huge vehicles that still seem so popular these days.


----------



## Alex321 (14 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> I'd say every motorised vehicle on the roads will have a set amount, to be paid yearly.


That is hat it used to be (each Class of vehicle having a different amount though - so Motorbikes, cars, buses, LGV, HGV etc. Each havaing one amount).

They changed that a good few years ago to encourage "cleaner" vehicles.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> That is hat it used to be (each Class of vehicle having a different amount though - so Motorbikes, cars, buses, LGV, HGV etc. Each havaing one amount).
> 
> They changed that a good few years ago to encourage "cleaner" vehicles.


When it became emission based, it spread the amounts payable. So in effect they'll be going back to the system you give.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (14 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Some councils to start charging for charging points.
> https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/electric-car-owners-hit-road-28472652



That's already the case in Fife. There is a connection fee plus charge for the electricity used. Quite fair


----------



## CXRAndy (14 Nov 2022)

It was always the case, that government would want to charge EVs for travelling. Those of us who got in early have saved many hundreds in initial fees plus much larger incentives to buy.

Next stage for Ev owners is to get as much solar of their own to cancel out rising electricity costs. This will also mitigate road charging costs.


----------



## youngoldbloke (14 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> I'd say every motorised vehicle on the roads will have a set amount, to be paid yearly.
> 
> *With it possibly extending to e-assist and electric bicycles.*



Why? - and then how?


----------



## cyberknight (14 Nov 2022)

From what I read the grant incentive to buy one is also being scrapped


----------



## Milzy (14 Nov 2022)

How can they tax EV’s when our system is VED based? It will never happen. 
Makes you laugh though with all these Tesla’s half coal powered in the world.


----------



## vickster (14 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> How can they tax EV’s when our system is VED based? It will never happen.
> Makes you laugh though with all these Tesla’s half coal powered in the world.



The system can be changed or a new one introduced


----------



## Alex321 (14 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> How can they tax EV’s when our system is VED based? It will never happen.
> Makes you laugh though with all these Tesla’s half coal powered in the world.



Why would that make it any more difficult to tax EVs?

VED - Vehicle Excise Duty. Nothing to do with what powers the vehicle, although they have used emissions in recent years to define the level of VED due for any given vehicle. But that is a fairly recent introduction, and can easily be changed.

And technically, they are subject to VED, just at zero rate.


----------



## KnittyNorah (14 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Why would that make it any more difficult to tax EVs?
> 
> VED - Vehicle Excise Duty. Nothing to do with what powers the vehicle, although they have used emissions in recent years to define the level of VED due for any given vehicle. But that is a fairly recent introduction, and can easily be changed.
> 
> And technically, they are subject to VED, just at zero rate.



Some people are (mis)understanding VED as Vehicle *Emissions* Duty, so that might be one source of confusion leading to idea that the VED system can't be applied to EVs.


----------



## icowden (14 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Makes you laugh though with all these Tesla’s half coal powered in the world.


Why? One change by a government and they become completely cleanly fuelled. It moves the pressure from the automobile to the Government. Build more wind, hydro and solar. End of.


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## Chislenko (14 Nov 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Some people are (mis)understanding VED as Vehicle *Emissions* Duty, so that might be one source of confusion leading to idea that the VED system can't be applied to EVs.



It would appear inevitable, due to diminishing traditional revenue, that the government will introduce some sort of EV taxation.


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## vickster (14 Nov 2022)

Chislenko said:


> It would appear inevitable, due to diminishing traditional revenue, that the government will introduce some sort of EV taxation.



And rightly so. They still use the infrastructure (roads, lighting, signage, policing etc) and are still involved in accidents which impact wider society and resources


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## ClichéGuevara (14 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> And rightly so. They still use the infrastructure (roads, lighting, signage, policing etc) and are still involved in accidents which impact wider society and resources



I think most if not all of those are paid for from local rates rather then general VED.


----------



## vickster (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think most if not all of those are paid for from local rates rather then general VED.



Motorways? Trunk Roads?

VED more importantly goes into the big treasury pot…


----------



## Alex321 (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think most if not all of those are paid for from local rates rather then general VED.



VED has never been ring-fenced anyhow - that stopped when it was still road tax, which ended in 1937.

But whether paid locally or out of general taxation depends on the type of road. If a road is part of the "Strategic Road Network", then it will be the Highways Agency responsible for maintenance and signage. For other Trunk Roads, it will be Highways England, Transport Scotland or the Welsh Government.

All lesser roads are the responsibility of local authorities.


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## KnittyNorah (14 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think most if not all of those are paid for from local rates rather then general VED.



They' re paid for by different agencies, depending on the type of road are. All these agencies are funded by local and general taxation, into which VED goes.
Road tax - which started in 1909 - only ever paid for some _repairs_ to the existing roads, never for their construction, and ceased being ring-fenced when Churchill started 'raiding' it in the mid 1920s, a full decade before the thing was abolished.


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## Milzy (14 Nov 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Some people are (mis)understanding VED as Vehicle *Emissions* Duty, so that might be one source of confusion leading to idea that the VED system can't be applied to EVs.



Yeah I know this but it’s all over the news & social media. So they’d have to change the system which will be hard. Maybe they’ll just keep going on with their click bait story. The thing is the nonsense bad media will put people off.


----------



## Milzy (14 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> And rightly so. They still use the infrastructure (roads, lighting, signage, policing etc) and are still involved in accidents which impact wider society and resources



So are you saying us cyclists should pay ‘something’ then?


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## vickster (14 Nov 2022)

We do, we pay VAT on everything we buy for our bikes, clothing etc. not to mention VAT on cake 

Bikes don’t cause damage to infrastructure in tut same way that much larger heavier vehicles do. Road infrastructure is designed for large fast vehicles. Without motorised vehicles, much of it and its maintenance would be unnecessary surely?


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## Milzy (14 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> We do, we pay VAT on everything we buy for our bikes, clothing etc. not to mention VAT on cake
> 
> Bikes don’t cause damage to infrastructure in tut same way that much larger heavier vehicles do. Road infrastructure is designed for large fast vehicles. Without motorised vehicles, much of it and its maintenance would be unnecessary surely?



I’ve said that to the cycling haters before but they just don’t get it.


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## vickster (14 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’ve said that to the cycling haters before but they just don’t get it.



That’s because they’re thick numpties


----------



## KnittyNorah (14 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> So are you saying us cyclists should pay ‘something’ then?



All residents of the UK - not omitting cyclists - pay _something_, and usually quite a considerable something - towards the maintenance of the Public Highway (don't forget that word 'Public') through various forms of taxation which will catch _everyone _at some point. Of course we all accrue some benefit from these roads - if only to be able to catch the bus along them, or to rely on their ability to allow the bin men and the fire engines to travel along them.


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## Alex321 (14 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yeah I know this but it’s all over the news & social media. So they’d have to change the system which will be hard. Maybe they’ll just keep going on with their click bait story.


There is no real change need to the system, they just revert back to what they had before trying to encourage lower emissions by varying the rate.

It will be absolutely trivial to do not "hard" at all.

What will be harder will be selling it to the public. But even that shouldn't be super-hard.



Milzy said:


> The thing is the nonsense bad media will put people off.



That is true, and is part of the reason selling it to the public will be harder.


----------



## classic33 (14 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There is no real change need to the system, they just revert back to what they had before trying to encourage lower emissions by varying the rate.
> 
> It will be absolutely trivial to do not "hard" at all.
> 
> ...


There'd be no need to "sell it to the public". If you want to take a motorised vehicle on UK roads, legally, you'll have to pay.


----------



## CXRAndy (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> VED more importantly goes into the big treasury pot…



Gets p!ssed away like most of our taxed money.


----------



## vickster (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Gets p!ssed away like most of our taxed money.



On the NHS, social care, education, childcare, defence, state pension, other benefits you mean?


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## gbb (15 Nov 2022)

Tbf, no government has to 'sell' to us any future changes in legislation re VED. As that time comes, they will do what they have to do, some of the public will grumble and groan but will pay up.
Thats the inevitable way it will be. Social media will tell us how people are 'outraged and 'disgusted' and sadly, some idiots read it, believe it and react to it. A bit like 'McDonald's customers are 'heartbroken' as blah blah product is no longer available'
No they're not,a few might be disappointed but will live, its just media hype to feed the stupid minority of the masses.


----------



## Jameshow (15 Nov 2022)

gbb said:


> Tbf, no government has to 'sell' to us any future changes in legislation re VED. As that time comes, they will do what they have to do, some of the public will grumble and groan but will pay up.
> Thats the inevitable way it will be. Social media will tell us how people are 'outraged and 'disgusted' and sadly, some idiots read it, believe it and react to it. A bit like 'McDonald's customers are 'heartbroken' as blah blah product is no longer available'
> No they're not,a few might be disappointed but will live, its just media hype to feed the stupid minority of the masses.



My mcds was closed the other day... Ruined my year - had to have a Aldi chicken salad sandwich!!😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣


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## Alex321 (15 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> There'd be no need to "sell it to the public". If you want to take a motorised vehicle on UK roads, legally, you'll have to pay.



There will be a need to "sell it to the public" because if it is too unpopular then it is likely to result in losing an election.


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## gbb (15 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There will be a need to "sell it to the public" because if it is too unpopular then it is likely to result in losing an election.



Not necessarily. The subject matter are EVs in essence and should they pay? As revenues fall from increased EV usage, I think most people are grown up enough to know they will inevitably be 'taxed ' in one form or another in the near or far future. As the majority of owners atm dont have EVs, the majority of people will support the measure you could argue ?
In essence, you're right, everything a government does risks alienating the public, but history tells me, people have very short memories.


----------



## gbb (15 Nov 2022)

Jameshow said:


> My mcds was closed the other day... Ruined my year - had to have a Aldi chicken salad sandwich!!😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣



Yeah, but were you devastated ?
Answer Yes...Millennial
Answer No....Boomer


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## SpokeyDokey (15 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There will be a need to "sell it to the public" because if it is too unpopular then it is likely to result in losing an election.



I doubt that very much.

Very few major policy changes seem to affect actual voting choices - let alone ones a notch or two down.

Vehicle taxation is hardly a 'biggie' in the grand scheme of personal taxation.


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## CXRAndy (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> On the NHS, social care, education, childcare, defence, state pension, other benefits you mean?



Having experienced first or observed through family members how most of these are administered , yes vast sums of our money wasted. Most need privatising.


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Having experienced first or observed through family members how most of these are administered , yes vast sums of our money wasted. Most need privatising.



Yes because Privatising the railways is working out superbly.

There's always going to be waste in anything the size of the NHS. There's waste in private companies too. I do not want the NHS privatised.


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## vickster (15 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Yes because Privatising the railways is working out superbly.
> 
> There's always going to be waste in anything the size of the NHS. There's waste in private companies too. I do not want the NHS privatised.



Indeed, although personally I have no issue with private healthcare running alongside the NHS.

Privatising the state pension? How would that work?
Or defence?
Or child and adult social care?


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> Privatising the state pension? How would that work?
> 
> Or child and adult social care?



I think it's Victorian workhouses. 

I'm sure JRM has something ready to go. From his offices in Dublin.


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## vickster (15 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I think it's Victorian workhouses.
> 
> I'm sure JRM has something ready to go. From his offices in Dublin.



And conscription to maximise profit on defence, cheaper than professional armed forces


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> And conscription to maximise profit on defence, cheaper than professional armed forces



I think we are doing his job here.


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## CXRAndy (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> Indeed, although personally I have no issue with private healthcare running alongside the NHS.
> 
> Privatising the state pension? How would that work?
> Or defence?
> Or child and adult social care?



Private pensions, noval idea. Or just save your own money, invest in what you choose to.

Child care/ adult care plenty of private nurseries and private nurses. Doing a far superior job.

Defence is nothing like it was 30-40 years ago. Kids with good gaming skills are more valuable than squaddie.


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Private pensions, noval idea. Or just save your own money, invest in what you choose to.
> 
> Child care/ adult care plenty of private nurseries and private nurses. Doing a far superior job.
> 
> Defence is nothing like it was 30-40 years ago. Kids with good gaming skills are more valuable than squaddie.



I think there is a lot to go wrong with people investing in what they choose to. So many people are not blessed with good financial knowledge or ability. 
I lost my dad last year to cancer and the NHS were fantastic for him. I can't imagine how or why a private nursing system could have been better. Maybe better for the shareholders ? 
Defence is definitely evolving - but look at Ukraine - plenty of squaddies on the front line. Drone pilots have a use but they aren't retaking villages without troops on the ground.


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## CXRAndy (15 Nov 2022)

Sorry for your loss re father, I've lost several relatives, seen them through their last days. It's very much a lottery who are doing the caring. I've been in hospital NHS and private. I can tell you I'd pay every time to go private. Speedy service, scans with results in less than an hour from consultant, not junior, care comes promptly when needed. Food top notch.

I even pay for my own blood tests privately. Trying to see a GP is virtually impossible


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## cyberknight (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Sorry for your loss re father, I've lost several relatives, seen them through their last days. It's very much a lottery who are doing the caring. I've been in hospital NHS and private. I can tell you I'd pay every time to go private. Speedy service, scans with results in less than an hour from consultant, not junior, care comes promptly when needed. Food top notch.
> 
> I even pay for my own blood tests privately. Trying to see a GP is virtually impossible



i wont argue with that , i get private care through work as a benefit in kind so family cover for less than £30 a month.
When i did my collarbone im glad i had it as the nhs although doing the best they can within their time constraints and budget kept telling me to come back in a few weeks to see how i was doing rather than further investigation that showed my bones hadnt reconnected and needed surgery.
Mrs CK just booked in to see a consultant that may require an operation at the same place i had mine done .It will cost me £200 excess but its worth it to be seen quicker and get sorted on way or another rather than waiting months just to see one then months for the operation ,


----------



## Jameshow (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Private pensions, noval idea. Or just save your own money, invest in what you choose to.
> 
> Child care/ adult care plenty of private nurseries and private nurses. Doing a far superior job.
> 
> Defence is nothing like it was 30-40 years ago. Kids with good gaming skills are more valuable than squaddie.



Hardly private nursing care isn't doing its job but is rather blocking up the NHS! 

Both the social services and private patients aren't paying enough and private companies are taking too great a profit margin.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (15 Nov 2022)

Mod Note:
Isn't this thread a wee bit off topic lately?


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## vickster (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Private pensions, noval idea. Or just save your own money, invest in what you choose to.
> 
> Child care/ adult care plenty of private nurseries and private nurses. Doing a far superior job.
> 
> Defence is nothing like it was 30-40 years ago. Kids with good gaming skills are more valuable than squaddie.



All well and good for evidently wealthy people like yourself…for the majority however

Presumably you’re educating your children privately too from the age of 5?


----------



## vickster (15 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> i wont argue with that , i get private care through work as a benefit in kind so family cover for less than £30 a month.
> When i did my collarbone im glad i had it as the nhs although doing the best they can within their time constraints and budget kept telling me to come back in a few weeks to see how i was doing rather than further investigation that showed my bones hadnt reconnected and needed surgery.
> Mrs CK just booked in to see a consultant that may require an operation at the same place i had mine done .It will cost me £200 excess but its worth it to be seen quicker and get sorted on way or another rather than waiting months just to see one then months for the operation ,



Don’t you have a child and wife with chronic conditions?
Does your private healthcare cover all of their care or the NHS? 
Would you be able to cover their care and treatment if the NHS didn’t?
That’s what would happen with a private healthcare system like the US so be a bit careful what you wish for 

Anyhow this is certainly off topic from taxing the owners of EVs


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## cyberknight (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> Don’t you have a child and wife with chronic conditions. Does your private healthcare cover all of that or the NHS? Would you be able to cover their care if the NHS didn’t?
> That’s what would happen with a private healthcare system like the US



mini ck 1 condition is genetic so isnt covered , which is why i originally joined the scheme in the 1st place .But overnight stays in hospitals are covered so i can get a cash sum per night .Mrs CK current requirements could be met by the nhs but given the waiting lists for procedures .
We are goign off topic from electric cars arent we  . Final word i would rather have paid more in tax and had an nhs that works but we have to deal with what we are dealt


----------



## CXRAndy (15 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> Presumably you’re educating your children privately too from the age of 5?



Yes, why not


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## Jameshow (15 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Yes, why not



Not paying VED so he can afford too!!


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## cougie uk (15 Nov 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Not paying VED so he can afford too!!



How much is your VED ?


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## Jameshow (15 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> How much is your VED ?



£265 iirc! 

Just about pay for a day trip to private school!🤣🤣🤣


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## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2022)

Ad4m said:


> Private providers only do the easy and the profitable procedures. 3 years ago my mother received a pulmonary endarterectomy at Papworth hospital. Pioneering heart/lung surgery. Try getting that privately.
> 
> Without it she’d likely be dead now; she’d certainly be housebound on oxygen. She’s now independent and able to do most things someone of her age could do.
> 
> The NHS is amongst the most efficient health service in the world in terms of what it delivers for the cost. However it has dropped from the best in the world in 2017 to the 4th best in 2021. Partially due to COVID backlogs but mostly due to underfunding



The NHS is shockingly bad, people take the mick, especially in A&E. So many are there for trivial ailments, they could easily sort either via GP or self treatment. But maybe that's why they're there because getting to see a GP is nigh on impossible. Our GP service, you must ring bang on 8.00AM to get an appointment that week. Only if you pretend to be dying will they see you that day. However our GP service will bombard you with texts asking you to come in for flu jabs, covid jabs. Because they get paid extra for injections and screening. 

If you cant see a doctor in a few days, you might as well treat yourself-lets face it most day to day issues are trivial


----------



## Profpointy (16 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> One scheme I've heard was along the lines all the details taken at point of sale, similar to how TV sales were done. And these forwarded on. An annual reminder sent out on the basis that you still have the bike, unless you inform them otherwise. Guilty until proven innocent, or you prove that you don't have the bike.



That'll stop them pesky children from learning to ride bikes


----------



## Profpointy (16 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Gets p!ssed away like most of our taxed money.



My dad used to say that. He's a retired teacher so where he thought his wages came from I don't know


----------



## classic33 (16 Nov 2022)

Profpointy said:


> That'll stop them pesky children from learning to ride bikes


Aren't they legally excluded from e-assist until they're 14 anyway?


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## Profpointy (16 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Aren't they legally excluded from e-assist until they're 14 anyway?



Dunno, but I was thinking about push bikes


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## Alex321 (16 Nov 2022)

Profpointy said:


> Dunno, but I was thinking about push bikes



The initial post in the chain you were responding to only mentioned e-bikes as something that might be taxed, not regular pedal bikes (something that has always puzzled me is why they are commonly called "push bikes").


----------



## classic33 (16 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The initial post in the chain you were responding to only mentioned e-bikes as something that might be taxed, not regular pedal bikes (something that has always puzzled me is why they are commonly called "push bikes").


You "Push Off" to get going.


----------



## Milzy (16 Nov 2022)

Yes but are we been forced to go electric? 
No there’s loads of good hybrids coming out now & they will continue for a “LONG” time.


----------



## Profpointy (16 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The initial post in the chain you were responding to only mentioned e-bikes as something that might be taxed, not regular pedal bikes (something that has always puzzled me is why they are commonly called "push bikes").



You have to push 'em up steep hills


----------



## cougie uk (16 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yes but are we been forced to go electric?
> No there’s loads of good hybrids coming out now & they will continue for a “LONG” time.



Depends on your usage really. 
We can charge on the drive. 
The EV does 13k a year - so over the average use. 
We only need to charge away from home if we go on holiday or long trips. 
Hybrid makes no sense for us.


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## Milzy (16 Nov 2022)

Budget tomorrow. I wonder if they’ll ever start charging us per mile?


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## cougie uk (16 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Budget tomorrow. I wonder if they’ll ever start charging us per mile?



I'm sure they will eventually but is the tech there yet ?


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I'm sure they will eventually but is the tech there yet ?



Tech is here, deployment hasn't yet begun. Either every road will need to be monitored or every car will need to transmit mileage data. Then comes privacy concerns over tracking. Also most cars aren't capable, yet black boxes could be issued


----------



## classic33 (16 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I'm sure they will eventually but is the tech there yet ?


The technology to block that technology is available on the market.


----------



## Jameshow (16 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Budget tomorrow. I wonder if they’ll ever start charging us per mile?



Anyone think that's the ultimate aim of smart motorway gantrys?!


----------



## cougie uk (16 Nov 2022)

Do we know if any countries charge by the miles driven ? Does make a lot of sense to me.


----------



## Alex321 (16 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Do we know if any countries charge by the miles driven ? Does make a lot of sense to me.



Some toll motorways do, in some countries.


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## cougie uk (16 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Some toll motorways do, in some countries.



Well even we do that.


----------



## classic33 (16 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Do we know if any countries charge by the miles driven ? Does make a lot of sense to me.


Mainly for the heavier vehicles on the road. However, it's being/been looked at in the UK.
https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/nat...ooking-road-pricing-sales-electric-cars-rise/


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## Dadam (16 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> The technology to block that technology is available on the market.



And the tech to overcome the blocking tech is also available. Plus they could simply have random stops, have a blocking device fitted = you’re nicked sonny. First offence = your road price per mile is the default for your vehicle x 2. Next offence it’s x 4 and so on.


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## classic33 (16 Nov 2022)

Ad4m said:


> And the tech to overcome the blocking tech is also available. Plus they could simply have random stops, have a blocking device fitted = you’re nicked sonny. First offence = your road price per mile is the default for your vehicle x 2. Next offence it’s x 4 and so on.


With the amount of information your car is giving away, the little being blocked isn't much.


----------



## Chislenko (16 Nov 2022)

Reading today, apparently after "road rage" there is now a new thing raising it's ugly head "charge rage" with people arguing over charging points.


----------



## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2022)

Just to jump back to government, NHS, social waste. In an article today

I copied this section

'Huge amounts of waste associated with the pandemic, with the Department for Health and Social Care spending more than £4 billion on PPE – of which £2.6 billion was unsuitable, £670 million defective, and £750 million surplus to requirements. It then paid £436 million in fines for leaving mountains of PPE in storage too long, and agreed to pay £35 million for the destruction of PPE it cannot use.'

These aren't isolated events, our money is being squandered year on year by every major service that we pay for. 

It doesn't matter whether this is labour or conservatives governing. The public's sector have no concept of care re our money

They literally p!ss it away. SOME folk still think it's ok


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## ianrauk (17 Nov 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Reading today, apparently after "road rage" there is now a new thing raising it's ugly head "charge rage" with people arguing over charging points.



We had an EV on borrow for the weekend from the car showroom last year. Out and about doing chores, we needed to charge it. Ikea was local so popped in there. 8 chargers, all full. All EV's. 5 Out of the 8 not charging, just parked.
Went to Tesco's. 6 spaces, all full, 3 out of 6 just parked, not charging.
It seemed to us that EV drivers think because its a charging point, they can park there anyway.
Pretty annoying and selfish behaviour.


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## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2022)

ianrauk said:


> We had an EV on borrow for the weekend from the car showroom last year. Out and about doing chores, we needed to charge it. Ikea was local so popped in there. 8 chargers, all full. All EV's. 5 Out of the 8 not charging, just parked.
> Went to Tesco's. 6 spaces, all full, 3 out of 6 just parked, not charging.
> It seemed to us that EV drivers think because its a charging point, they can park there anyway.
> Pretty annoying and selfish behaviour.



That's not the norm, going forward people are going to be premium excess overstay in charging bays. 

Tesla already do this, it varies from 50p to £1 per minute once charged up. Tesla will also limit max capacity if the site is busy.


----------



## icowden (17 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> Yes but are we been forced to go electric?
> No there’s loads of good hybrids coming out now & they will continue for a “LONG” time.



But you still have to put Diesel and Petrol in them. There will be a tipping point in the relatively near future where the volume of new ICE cars sold decreases to the point that Petrol and Diesel sales start to drop off a cliff. At that point, producing Diesel and Petrol becomes less desirable and the price goes up.

So sure, you can buy a hybrid. Will you still be able to afford the fuel in 10 years time?


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## youngoldbloke (17 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> That's not the norm, going forward people are going to be premium excess overstay in charging bays.
> 
> Tesla already do this, it varies from 50p to £1 per minute once charged up. Tesla will also limit max capacity if the site is busy.



So the days of shops offering free or discounted charging to attract customers to browse their stores are numbered, as duration of your visit will be limited due to the fear of overstay penalties.


----------



## gbb (17 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Just to jump back to government, NHS, social waste. In an article today
> 
> I copied this section
> 
> ...



Personally, i tend to think the whole world had an unprecedented situation to deal with...and fast. No doubt mistakes were made, huge ones.
But we always look at this in isolation, did any other country make the same mistakes ?
There is a feeling the container shortage that impacted the supply chain so badly was due to countries having unused, unuseble, excess PPE locked up in hundreds of thousands of containers around the world.
I suspect human nature being what it is....it may well have happened in many / most countries, we just don't get to hear what happened there.


----------



## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Just to jump back to government, NHS, social waste. In an article today
> 
> I copied this section
> 
> ...



So because Matt Hancock gave millions to his mate the pub landlord to get some PPE - we should privatise the NHS ? 

Hmmm. Not convinced.


----------



## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

ianrauk said:


> We had an EV on borrow for the weekend from the car showroom last year. Out and about doing chores, we needed to charge it. Ikea was local so popped in there. 8 chargers, all full. All EV's. 5 Out of the 8 not charging, just parked.
> Went to Tesco's. 6 spaces, all full, 3 out of 6 just parked, not charging.
> It seemed to us that EV drivers think because its a charging point, they can park there anyway.
> Pretty annoying and selfish behaviour.



That is annoying. But if the EV were yours presumably you'd have just charged before going out and had no inconvenience ?

I've never seen that but I hardly ever charge away from home.


----------



## vickster (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That is annoying. But if the EV were yours presumably you'd have just charged before going out and had no inconvenience ?
> 
> I've never seen that but I hardly ever charge away from home.



What about the many people who simply aren’t able to charge at home as they don’t have (off street) parking right outside their home?
There’s one of those charging post thingies nearby. There is pretty much always a non EV parked next to it as it’s on a residential street


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## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> So the days of shops offering free or discounted charging to attract customers to browse their stores are numbered, as duration of your visit will be limited due to the fear of overstay penalties.



It's already happened, Tesco no longer offer free charging. Round by us it lasted maybe a year after installation of the chargers. Most carparks have a 2hr max stay with big £60-100 fine if you do. It's no different.

It's simple really, don't hog a charging bay, use and move on


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## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> What about the many people who simply aren’t able to charge at home as they don’t have (off street) parking right outside their home?
> There’s one of those charging post thingies nearby. There is pretty much always a non EV parked next to it as it’s on a residential street



My mum's next door neighbour hasn't off street parking. He runs a cable to it covered in a hi Viz Cover thing. No drama. 

The demand for charging will go up so there will be more charging stations. 

There's one 200 yards from me with another one being built half a mile away.


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## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> So because Matt Hancock gave millions to his mate the pub landlord to get some PPE - we should privatise the NHS ?
> 
> Hmmm. Not convinced.



COVID cockup was one incident. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of wasted projects, purchases going on every year. Not just NHS, but that is a huge money pit, which could do with ground up reorganization. Eg if people were charged for not turning up to appointments, scans etc. Bet your bottom dollar they would be there on time every time.

Another waste of money which increases in cost every month just about HS2,. WTF is it for. To make travelling into London 20mins faster. 

Then you have local government doing smaller wasteful projects.

I'm sure if folk did a cursory look in their area, there will be news articles, reports on what money has been stupidly wasted.


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## vickster (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> My mum's next door neighbour hasn't off street parking. He runs a cable to it covered in a hi Viz Cover thing. No drama.
> 
> The demand for charging will go up so there will be more charging stations.
> 
> There's one 200 yards from me with another one being built half a mile away.



What about people who live in flats or can’t run a cable to wherever they have to park as they can’t park directly outside. Does he have permission to run the cable across the pavement?

Having more charging stations might be a solution if not abused by people just parking or staying for hours on end. Who’ll ‘police’ it and who’ll pay for enforcement?


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## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> What about people who live in flats or can’t run a cable to wherever they have to park as they can’t park directly outside. Does he have permission to run the cable across the pavement?
> 
> Having more charging stations might be a solution if not abused by people just parking or staying for hours on end. Who’ll ‘police’ it and who’ll pay for enforcement?



If they have a car - presumably they have somewhere to park. 
All you need is a charger put in. It's not rocket science. 

Overstaying chargers can be easily fixed by increasing the payment hugely after an hour or whatever. Simple.


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## vickster (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> If they have a car - presumably they have somewhere to park.
> All you need is a charger put in. It's not rocket science.
> 
> Overstaying chargers can be easily fixed by increasing the payment hugely after an hour or whatever. Simple.



But not necessarily close to where they live. A friend of mine for example lives in an upstairs maisonette, she’d need a very long cable to reach her car that she cannot park directly outside and it would even need to run over the road as well as the payment. She has a parking permit to park on the street but no designated space. 
What would she do if no chargers on the street.
I’m just saying it’s not as simple (or cost effective) as for people who have OSP.
That’s before taking the far higher cost of EVs into account which will be a barrier for millions


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## Dadam (17 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> COVID cockup was one incident. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of wasted projects, purchases going on every year. Not just NHS, but that is a huge money pit, which could do with ground up reorganization. Eg if people were charged for not turning up to appointments, scans etc. Bet your bottom dollar they would be there on time every time.
> 
> Another waste of money which increases in cost every month just about HS2,. WTF is it for. To make travelling into London 20mins faster.
> 
> ...



As I posted earlier with sources, pound for pound, for what it provides the NHS is still amongst the top performing health services in the world. Study after study has borne this out. However it's not without its problems, primarily because its funding is being stripped to the bone relative to the escalating demand. One huge problem it has, which has a massive impact on A&E waiting times, is the inability to clear beds of people who don't need to be in hospital but cannot be discharged due to lack of social care provision. The reason for that is social care is in an even worse position of underfunding. At the same time it's drastically understaffed because the pay is rock bottom and the main source of people willing and able to work in the sector was cut off a few years ago, largely due to small-minded xenophobia.

By far the biggest problem in government, and actually pretty much all large organisations, the private sector included*, is simply not thinking things through. Having too narrow a view, and too short-term a view.

*This fact isn't widely reported as it doesn't fit the inaccurate "bloated management" trope beloved by those who seek to run it down. The NHS in fact compares favourably with the majority of large private companies in the amount it spends on management costs as a proportion of its budget.

[Agree with you about HS2 though, vanity project and totally reinforcing the London-centric attitude that has blighted the rest of the country]


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## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> What about people who live in flats or can’t run a cable to wherever they have to park as they can’t park directly outside. Does he have permission to run the cable across the pavement?
> 
> Having more charging stations might be a solution if not abused by people just parking or staying for hours on end. Who’ll ‘police’ it and who’ll pay for enforcement?



Tesla's is fully automated, it knows when your car is charged. Owning a Tesla you use their fantastic app. It keeps you informed when you need to return to your car to move it. 

It really isn't difficult as a non Tesla owner to understand how long you need to charge your EV . 

Once the charging current drops to a low amount, the charger could then start billing for overstay at an increased price . 

You need to either swipe your card or have a cars logged to an app to use chargers. So there is no cheating. 

For those who park in a charge bay and don't even use the charger, clamp or better still tow away.


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## FishFright (17 Nov 2022)

Just stop buying cars , because of the magnitude of upcoming climate change maintaining your lifestyle is irrelevant.


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## Chislenko (17 Nov 2022)

Must admit Mrs. C's little old diesel, mostly local trips, whilst still reliable is showing signs of wear and tear and I anticipate it needing a lot of money spent on it at next MOT plus it is due a cam belt **

We are in the fortunate position of having OSP and we are toying with the idea of going electric for her whilst still keeping my big old diesel workhorse for longer journeys.

I have raised in the past the problems for people with no OSP and sympathise with them. I would not consider electric if we didn't have OSP.

** The one advantage I had of working in the motor trade all my life was that previously I never worried about car repair bills! They just used to evaporate into the system 😊


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## icowden (17 Nov 2022)

vickster said:


> What would she do if no chargers on the street.


Not charge the car.


vickster said:


> I’m just saying it’s not as simple (or cost effective) as for people who have OSP.
> That’s before taking the far higher cost of EVs into account which will be a barrier for millions


The more EVs that are produced, the cheaper they will become. Battery tech will become better and better etc. You do know that petrol stations in abundance happend *well* after motor cars became popular?



> But back in the pioneering days of the motor car, there were no petrol stations. Keeping your horseless carriage fed would have required a trip to the local chemist where, between the soap and the hair tonic, you’d have pointed at a two-gallon tin of the stuff.
> 
> With the end of the First World War, things began to change. Russian-made petrol had been widely available, but in an effort to promote British-made ‘motor spirit’ or benzole – a by-product of burning coal – the AA opened the first filling station in Aldermaston, beside what is now the A4.
> 
> ...


And:-


> *It wasn’t until the 1960s that self-service stations began to appear in appreciable numbers*, one of the earliest being at Southwark Bridge, London, opening in November 1961. This ushered in the era of the covered forecourt, with many stations nestling their pumps under outlandishly-designed canopies that looked more like an impending alien invasion.


And yet people purchased the motor car in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s etc. AT peak there were 40,000 filling stations in the UK, we are now down to around 8,300. 
As this article points out:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57416829

Electricity is everywhere, it's just about adding some plug sockets.


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Nov 2022)

VED exemption for EV's gone for 2025.

EV BIK tax to rise by 1%.


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## Alex321 (17 Nov 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> VED exemption for EV's gone for 2025.



Just a bald announcement of that in the Autumn Statement, without explanation of what the rates will be for zero-emission cars.

Actually, having just gone back to check, it is only emission-based for the 2nd and subsequent years for vehicles registered before 2017. Later vehicles are at a fixed rate from the 2nd year, with electric currently being zero (petrol or diesel £165).


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Just a bald announcement of that in the Autumn Statement, without explanation of what the rates will be for zero-emission cars.
> 
> Actually, having just gone back to check, it is only emission-based for the 2nd and subsequent years for vehicles registered before 2017. Later vehicles are at a fixed rate from the 2nd year, with electric currently being zero (petrol or diesel £165).



Re finer details:

The Scotsman is reporting that from 2025 all vehicles registered from 2017 will pay £10 first year and subsequent years at the lowest petrol/diesel band which is £165

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ch-because-of-other-cost-benefits-rac-3922123


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## Milzy (17 Nov 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> VED exemption for EV's gone for 2025.
> 
> EV BIK tax to rise by 1%.



They still pollute with brake dust, tyre wear etc, still make a huge noise, still kill and maim more vulnerable road users. Still cause queues, still need huge infrastructure investments. 
Only thing they don’t really do, as a petrol/diesel engine does, is engine noise and spew fumes out of the exhaust.


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> They still pollute with brake dust, tyre wear etc, still make a huge noise, still kill and maim more vulnerable road users. Still cause queues, still need huge infrastructure investments.
> Only thing they don’t really do, as a petrol/diesel engine does, is engine noise and spew fumes out of the exhaust.



I wasn't crying about it - I see it as a correct and fair decision.


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## youngoldbloke (17 Nov 2022)

It's not going to stop at VED. How will the income from the duty on petrol and diesel of 52.95p litre be replaced?


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Nov 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> It's not going to stop at VED. How will the income from the duty on petrol and diesel of 52.95p litre be replaced?



I'm in favour of something like the 1696 Window Tax.

The Solar Panels tax? 😁


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## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I'm in favour of something like the 1696 Window Tax.
> 
> The Solar Panels tax? 😁



So you'd tax something to make us more reliant on Russian gas ? Why ?


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> So you'd tax something to make us more reliant on Russian gas ? Why ?


There was less than 5%, of the total used, imported from Russia last year.


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## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> There was less than 5%, of the total used, imported from Russia last year.



Even so. Imagine if we had been more pro renewables - its got to be the future.


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Even so. Imagine if we had been more pro renewables - its got to be the future.


And if they have to change the final approach to airports due to windfarms, what's the cost to the airline industry?
Factor in air corridor restructuring for the same reason, wind farms, and their effect on radar.
What price safety?


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## ianrauk (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> That is annoying. But if the EV were yours presumably you'd have just charged before going out and had no inconvenience ?
> 
> I've never seen that but I hardly ever charge away from home.



We live in a flat, so no charger.


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## ianrauk (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Overstaying chargers can be easily fixed by increasing the payment hugely after an hour or whatever. Simple.


No so easy. The parkers wernt plugged in. Just parked there.


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## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> And if they have to change the final approach to airports due to windfarms, what's the cost to the airline industry?
> Factor in air corridor restructuring for the same reason, wind farms, and their effect on radar.
> What price safety?



Got to be a good thing, reducing flights. They're a massive contribution to C02 emissions


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## midlife (17 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> COVID cockup was one incident. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of wasted projects, purchases going on every year. Not just NHS, but that is a huge money pit, which could do with ground up reorganization. Eg if people were charged for not turning up to appointments, scans etc. Bet your bottom dollar they would be there on time every time.
> 
> Another waste of money which increases in cost every month just about HS2,. WTF is it for. To make travelling into London 20mins faster.
> 
> ...



I have a mirror person who did the same training as me, he works on private practice and I work exclusively for the NHS

Here are Finlays prices 

https://www.garstangdental.co.uk/our-fees

My work is perhaps a bit more complicated as I deal with mouths disfigured by oral cancer but I turn our the same work for about £650 a pop and not £10000.

How many of my cancer patients can afford ten grand? 

Not just me but private versus NHS cost for anything slightly complicated is unaffordable for many. which is the nub of why the NHS will continue for a while yet as the fully private alternative would simply leave a whole mass of individuals without treatment.


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Got to be a good thing, reducing flights. They're a massive contribution to C02 emissions


That's just it, they were increasing year on year, taking a longer final approach. Which costs more because more fuel is used.


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## icowden (17 Nov 2022)

ianrauk said:


> We live in a flat, so no charger.



https://www.motorbiscuit.com/can-you-own-an-ev-without-a-home-charger-setup/

No charger, no problem.


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## icowden (17 Nov 2022)

Milzy said:


> They still pollute with brake dust, tyre wear etc, still make a huge noise, still kill and maim more vulnerable road users. Still cause queues, still need huge infrastructure investments.
> Only thing they don’t really do, as a petrol/diesel engine does, is engine noise and spew fumes out of the exhaust.



wow. Always look on the bright side and all that.

They have much less brake dust due to regen braking, they kill fewer people by having advanced AI and collision avoidance technology, huge infrastructure investments nowhere near as huge as gas and oil. As you point out - no emissions and increasingly moron proof.


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## Milzy (17 Nov 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I wasn't crying about it - I see it as a correct and fair decision.



I completely agree 100% 
Only horses and push irons should be tax free. They pay enough taxes already .


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## ianrauk (17 Nov 2022)

But it was a problem. Not enough chargers and people parking in charging places.


icowden said:


> https://www.motorbiscuit.com/can-you-own-an-ev-without-a-home-charger-setup/
> 
> No charger, no problem


----------



## ianrauk (17 Nov 2022)

Behind a paywall


SpokeyDokey said:


> Re finer details:
> 
> The Scotsman is reporting that from 2025 all vehicles registered from 2017 will pay £10 first year and subsequent years at the lowest petrol/diesel band which is £165
> 
> https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ch-because-of-other-cost-benefits-rac-3922123


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Nov 2022)

ianrauk said:


> Behind a paywall



Damn - it wasn't when I first looked at it.

BBC instead...

BBC News - Electric car drivers must pay tax from 2025
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63660321


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## gbb (17 Nov 2022)

icowden said:


> https://www.motorbiscuit.com/can-you-own-an-ev-without-a-home-charger-setup/
> 
> No charger, no problem.





ianrauk said:


> But it was a problem. Not enough chargers and people parking in charging places.


Its not a very good article tbf.
I have no home charger, no ability to park outside my house, even if you attached a street charger to every lampost In the street, there's not enough space for all the cars, even if they had discipline and moved once charged....which trust me, will NOT happen, people are incredibly lazy.
So if I had an EV, the only public charge points atm are about 1/4 mile away at a Costa. I don't drink coffee so would drive there, put it on charge, trudge home in any assortment of weather then trudge back...in any assortment of weather to get it home.
The infrastructure might as well be eons away for many of us.
Of course its do-able, but at what cost, not monetary but inconvenience.


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## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> And if they have to change the final approach to airports due to windfarms, what's the cost to the airline industry?
> Factor in air corridor restructuring for the same reason, wind farms, and their effect on radar.
> What price safety?



Seriously - that is the issue you're making up ? Turbines in front of runways ? 

There's a LOT of the country that isn't runways luckily. 

Anyway I'm sure a good pilot could dodge the turbine blade on less windy days. LIke a good old computer game.


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Seriously - that is the issue you're making up ? Turbines in front of runways ?
> 
> There's a LOT of the country that isn't runways luckily.
> 
> Anyway I'm sure a good pilot could dodge the turbine blade on less windy days. LIke a good old computer game.


Genuine issues in the airline industry.
And easy enough check for yourself. And more time in the air, costs more.

Then ask yourself, who has the "louder voice", you or the airline industry.


----------



## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> Genuine issues in the airline industry.
> And easy enough check for yourself. And more time in the air, costs more.
> 
> Then ask yourself, who has the "louder voice", you or the airline industry.



Are you saying that wind farms have been built and now planes have to fly round them ? 
Why would they have been given planning permission ?


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## classic33 (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Are you saying that wind farms have been built and now planes have to fly round them ?
> Why would they have been given planning permission ?


I'd say the promise of "green energy" outweighed the objections. The result in most cases was a change to the final approach. And planes do have to avoid them, by flying miles out of the way.


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## cougie uk (17 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> I'd say the promise of "green energy" outweighed the objections. The result in most cases was a change to the final approach. And planes do have to avoid them, by flying miles out of the way.



Windfarm and flightpath diversion is not bringing up any relevant hits for me ?


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## Chislenko (17 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Windfarm and flightpath diversion is not bringing up any relevant hits for me ?



"Windfarms diverting aircraft" brought up a few for me, must admit it was something I knew nothing about.


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## Chislenko (18 Nov 2022)

Obviously they will have lots of external help / support team along the way, don't think I would like to try it unaided just yet.

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/new...atar-welsh-fans-look-to-spark-climate-action/


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## FishFright (18 Nov 2022)

classic33 said:


> And if they have to change the final approach to airports due to windfarms, what's the cost to the airline industry?
> Factor in air corridor restructuring for the same reason, wind farms, and their effect on radar.
> What price safety?



Anything that reduces the ease of flying is a good thing.


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## CXRAndy (18 Nov 2022)

messages re radar interference created by anti wind farms campaigners


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## ClichéGuevara (18 Nov 2022)

I'm just wondering if those happy for travel to be less available and more expensive, will be equally happy to pay more for a lower choice of food, given that according to some figures the production of hydrogen for use by the fertiliser industry contributes a similar amount to global warming as flying does.


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## cougie uk (18 Nov 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'm just wondering if those happy for travel to be less available and more expensive, will be equally happy to pay more for a lower choice of food, given that according to some figures the production of hydrogen for use by the fertiliser industry contributes a similar amount to global warming as flying does.



Brexit saw to it that we pay more for food anyway. (and most other things too)

Cheap flights don't sound like an essential anyway. You can still be opposed to them amd pro fertilizer.


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## ClichéGuevara (18 Nov 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Brexit saw to it that we pay more for food anyway. (and most other things too)
> 
> Cheap flights don't sound like an essential anyway. You can still be opposed to them amd pro fertilizer.



That first claim is very, very debatable, especially given the global situation and covid etc, but it's nothing to do with this thread so I'll leave it there.

The second is simply conveniently selective.


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## Chislenko (19 Nov 2022)

I posted upthread about four Welsh fans driving to Qatar for the world cup in an EV. They have got as far as Jordan but are not allowed into Saudi Arabia.

Not because the car is an EV, not for lack of charging points but something you wouldn't have even thought about....

Saudi Arabia do not allow right hand drive cars!!!

So if anyone wants an EV there is one sitting at the border of Jordan and Saudi Arabia as they have abandoned it and caught a plane!!


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## CXRAndy (19 Nov 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Saudi Arabia do not allow right hand drive cars!!!



. What a stupid rule. 

The only issue I have driving a LHD vehicle in the UK is overtaking. Easily remedied by being much further back to open up the visibility splay before attempting an overtake


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## SpokeyDokey (19 Nov 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> . What a stupid rule.
> 
> The only issue I have driving a LHD vehicle in the UK is overtaking. Easily remedied by being much further back to open up the visibility splay before attempting an overtake



Really good for undertaking though. 😁


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## CXRAndy (4 Dec 2022)

Pepsi to take first delivery of Tesla artic semi truck

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-semi-truck-finally-ready-and-pepsi-gets-first-ones


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## CXRAndy (5 Dec 2022)

Toyota the main proponent of hydrogen for fuelling cars has effectively cancelled the project. 

They have announced six new battery EVs for 2025.


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## cougie uk (5 Dec 2022)

I've not seen that. Toyota have been barking up the wrong tree for so long now.


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## classic33 (5 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Toyota the main proponent of hydrogen for fuelling cars has effectively cancelled the project.
> 
> They have announced six new battery EVs for 2025.


Doesn't seem as though they are giving up, 
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/02/toy...elop-hydrogen-fuel-cell-version-of-hilux.html


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## Jameshow (5 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Obviously they will have lots of external help / support team along the way, don't think I would like to try it unaided just yet.
> 
> https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/new...atar-welsh-fans-look-to-spark-climate-action/



Better to watch on the Tele tbh.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (5 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Pepsi to take first delivery of Tesla artic semi truck
> 
> https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-semi-truck-finally-ready-and-pepsi-gets-first-ones



The need for a 1MW charger is going to limit its options.


----------



## icowden (6 Dec 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The need for a 1MW charger is going to limit its options.



At the moment they will be charged at the Depot. Pepsi has planning permission to install Tesla Megachargers. As with Tesla cars, Megachargers will start to appear as Semis are rolled out.


----------



## CXRAndy (6 Dec 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> The need for a 1MW charger is going to limit its options.



Don't need 1000kW charger, a 13a plug would do. Just desirable to be fully charged the next day

I expect a roll out at all the major trucking stops and major distribution hubs like Pepsi's in the near future. Tesla have from their car section, laid out an extensive supercharger network. Wouldn't think they would a half assed job for the semi's


----------



## icowden (6 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Don't need 1000kW charger, a 13a plug would do. Just desirable to be fully charged the next day
> 
> I expect a roll out at all the major trucking stops and major distribution hubs like Pepsi's in the near future. Tesla have from their car section, laid out an extensive supercharger network. Wouldn't think they would a half assed job for the semi's



Plus they have already designed the chargers. So it's a matter of rolling them out where and when needed.


----------



## CXRAndy (6 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I've not seen that. Toyota have been barking up the wrong tree for so long now.



It's tacitly implied by the fact they are producing 6 new models of BEV 

If they were wedded to Hydrogen, you might have thought 6 Hydrogen fuel cell cars to be announced


----------



## gavroche (7 Dec 2022)

I read today that, apparently, it is going more expensive to run an EV car now than a ICE. I am quite happy to stick to my petrol car and will probably get another ICE when the time comes as IV cars are not as clean as they want us to believe.


----------



## cougie uk (7 Dec 2022)

gavroche said:


> I read today that, apparently, it is going more expensive to run an EV car now than a ICE. I am quite happy to stick to my petrol car and will probably get another ICE when the time comes as IV cars are not as clean as they want us to believe.



Where did you read that ?
Cost me £85 to fill my petrol car yesterday. 

It would be less than £16 to charge my EV to do the same distance. 

My EV will be able to use electric from my solar panels too (when they're fitted). Much cleaner than petrol.


----------



## CXRAndy (7 Dec 2022)

On an economic basis, EVs cost about the same as petrol if you solely charge from rapid charging at sites away from home. Once you start charging at home they become vastly cheaper.

Then you. Talk about pollution too 

Couple adding solar and cost of running, payback is much faster


----------



## SpokeyDokey (7 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Toyota the main proponent of hydrogen for fuelling cars has effectively cancelled the project.
> 
> They have announced six new battery EVs for 2025.



AFAIK BMW have set up a small division exploring hydrogen. Based on some of the current iX platforms albeit heavily modified.

Can't remember where I read it but it was a recent article.


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Dec 2022)

SpokeyDokey said:


> AFAIK BMW have set up a small division exploring hydrogen. Based on some of the current iX platforms albeit heavily modified.
> 
> Can't remember where I read it but it was a recent article.



Again given BMW have and are releasing various BEV models, so I can only take that EV are the future

Until somebody invents a cheap way to make hydrogen, so much so that it will persuade users to switch from BEV

Its the VHS/Betamax rivalry, BEV being VHS. Swamped the market, that's the direction its going.

VHS released 1976, DVD released 1996. Lets see what the boffins will come up with in 20 years


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## Dadam (8 Dec 2022)

Hydrogen has some advantages and thus is superficially attractive, but it has many downsides too. It has however been heavily pushed by vested interests who already have shipping and distribution networks for various other gas and liquid fuels. 

First you've got to make it (extract it from other materials), this takes energy of course. The cleanest way to make it is by electrolysis from water using renewable energy. However most hydrogen available today is actually extracted from fossil fuels.

Then you have to put it into a portable form that can be moved around reasonably efficiently. This is either compressed to high pressures (so you need a heavy high pressure cylinder), and the compression takes more energy. Or it's supercooled so less pressure is needed to liquify. This cooling takes energy and also refrigeration equipment to transfer and store.

Then you have to get it into the car. So high pressure fuel lines and couplers at a filling station.

Finally of course your car needs a suitable storage tank. Cryogenic probably isn't the right way here, so you need high pressure: 350-700 bar, much more than scuba tanks, and they are dangerous enough if misused. There are other means such as interstitial storage, where the atoms are physically stored inside the atomic structure of other materials and chemical storage where it is reacted with another substance. This reaction needs to be easily reversible.

One massive issue with hydrogen storage is the fact the hydrogen atom is tiny. It's the smallest atom in the universe: one proton and one electron. So it tends to leak through just about anything; not just bypassing seals but physically permeating between the atoms/molecules of whatever you put it in! If you choose steel, then this can cause the steel to become brittle and crack.

Compared with BEVs, the issues are much bigger. For BEVs they are availability of lithium and other minerals, weight of the cells and potential thermal runaway with damaged cells. But a 700 bar pressurised hydrogen tank exploding in a car isn't a great prospect either!

It doesn't really stack up except for large commercial vehicles in organisations who can run much of their own infrastructure.


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## MrGrumpy (12 Dec 2022)

gavroche said:


> I read today that, apparently, it is going more expensive to run an EV car now than a ICE. I am quite happy to stick to my petrol car and will probably get another ICE when the time comes as IV cars are not as clean as they want us to believe.



With the cost of cars these days , I think it will be a while yet before I’m in an EV . Still cheaper running my big bus and extortionate VED over the year . I’d love to get rid but nothing close around at the moment . 
EVs might be cheaper to run , however I wouldn’t jump in unless the maths works out! 
As has been repeatedly said Tesla has the best charging network and that’s another reason to hold off.


----------



## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> As has been repeatedly said Tesla has the best charging network and that’s another reason to hold off.


Eh?


----------



## Chislenko (12 Dec 2022)

Just a technical question.

If you charge at home on your drive do the connections "lock in" to your car or can scallies come along and unplug them "just for a laugh"


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## CXRAndy (12 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Just a technical question.
> 
> If you charge at home on your drive do the connections "lock in" to your car or can scallies come along and unplug them "just for a laugh"



Yes they lock onto the car. If you get a tethered lead, this is hard wired into the charger end. You can get Chargers with keys to turn off the power when not in use, so no one sneaks a quick charge. Sophisticated chargers have NFC or keycodes to limit access to authorised users. 

Obviously best situation is inside a building or behind a gated drive


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## cougie uk (12 Dec 2022)

Yes my lead locks into the car and I have to blip the car to get the lead out. 
Tethered chargers are the best for me - especially if you're charging the car most nights. 
I just have a timer on my lead so even if anyone was cheeky enough to park on my drive for a charge - they wouldn't get anything unless they were waiting til half past midnight.


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## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Just a technical question.
> If you charge at home on your drive do the connections "lock in" to your car or can scallies come along and unplug them "just for a laugh"


As @cougie uk said they lock. The other myth that comes up is that you can drive off and forget to unplug. You can't. The car won't go anywhere with a charger attached. It will just tell you and make a disappointed noise.

I have a Zappi charger and a ring doorbell. I can lock the Zappi using my mobile, or put a pin code on it, and my Ring would show anyone reversing onto my driveway.


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## cougie uk (12 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> As @gzoom said they lock. The other myth that comes up is that you can drive off and forget to unplug. You can't. The car won't go anywhere with a charger attached. It will just tell you and make a disappointed noise.



Just as well as we have seen YouTube clips of muppets driving away from petrol stations and dragging the pump with them...
Another plus for EV's over ICE !


----------



## MrGrumpy (12 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> Eh?



It’s the only reason to buy a Tesla , the charging network is second to none . The others are Gladys knight!


----------



## MrGrumpy (12 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Just as well as we have seen YouTube clips of muppets driving away from petrol stations and dragging the pump with them...
> Another plus for EV's over ICE !



You make it sound like an every day thing ? Seriously I’ve never seen it in my 30 odd years of driving ? Miss fuelling , for sure as I’m guilty of it once but not driving off with the pump connected ?? How can that be possible , even pay at the pump ??


----------



## figbat (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> You make it sound like an every day thing ? Seriously I’ve never seen it in my 30 odd years of driving ? Miss fuelling , for sure as I’m guilty of it once but not driving off with the pump connected ?? How can that be possible , even pay at the pump ??



It’s mostly an American thing where they can still put the pump in, click the lever to start pumping and then walk away, expecting the auto cut-off to do its thing. You used to be able to do it here but not for yonks.


----------



## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> It’s the only reason to buy a Tesla , the charging network is second to none . The others are Gladys knight!


Ah - I misread your post. I thought that you were saying that there was no point going EV as Tesla has the best network and you didn't want a Tesla!

Not sure it's the only reason to buy a Tesla though. They are miles ahead of other EVs. I love my ID4 but the UI is slow and quite annoying compared to the beauty and simplicity of the Tesla interface, and it lacks in sophistication. For example, the ID4 will give me animated lights and unlock itself when I approach which is cool, but if I get out and walk away, it won't lock itself. It has cameras all round but can't use them to protect the car or record dashcam footage. I can't even balance the audio between the in car radio and bluetooth audio - if i switch to in car from android auto my eardrums get blasted.


----------



## MrGrumpy (12 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> Ah - I misread your post. I thought that you were saying that there was no point going EV as Tesla has the best network and you didn't want a Tesla!
> 
> Not sure it's the only reason to buy a Tesla though. They are miles ahead of other EVs. I love my ID4 but the UI is slow and quite annoying compared to the beauty and simplicity of the Tesla interface, and it lacks in sophistication. For example, the ID4 will give me animated lights and unlock itself when I approach which is cool, but if I get out and walk away, it won't lock itself. It has cameras all round but can't use them to protect the car or record dashcam footage. I can't even balance the audio between the in car radio and bluetooth audio - if i switch to in car from android auto my eardrums get blasted.



The network is the selling point , possibly the range but I’ve seen nicer looking EVs , eg the Kia Evo but it might be junk who knows ?! 

On the same subject of chargers, someone in the flats in our estate has asked the committee to consider fitting a charging point in one of the private parking bays !! Not possible ! Should have thought of that before buying an EV !!


----------



## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The network is the selling point , possibly the range but I’ve seen nicer looking EVs , eg the Kia Evo but it might be junk who knows ?!


It's about the way you use them more than the looks IMHO. 



MrGrumpy said:


> On the same subject of chargers, someone in the flats in our estate has asked the committee to consider fitting a charging point in one of the private parking bays !! Not possible !


I doubt that it is "not possible" - it's more likely that it's not something they want to do (yet).


----------



## Dadam (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> The network is the selling point , possibly the range but I’ve seen nicer looking EVs , eg the Kia Evo but it might be junk who knows ?!
> 
> On the same subject of chargers, someone in the flats in our estate has asked the committee to consider fitting a charging point in one of the private parking bays !! Not possible ! Should have thought of that before buying an EV !!



Well yes it does indicate some lack of planning!  
However I'd challenge "not possible". They're going to have to fit them sooner or later or they'll struggle to sell/rent those flats!


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## CXRAndy (12 Dec 2022)

Tesla-software company that makes EVs 

VW until recently ICE car manufacturer


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## CXRAndy (12 Dec 2022)

I heard a very interesting statistic. 

Tesla has 8 times the profit of Toyota. Which you think wow, but when you read this, it really makes you understand how Tesla have used vertical integration, streamlined their models and used OTA software to upgrade vehicles without massive dealer networks 

*Tesla reported $3.29 billion in net profit last quarter compared to Toyota earning 434.2 billion yen (roughly $3.15 billion USD). That’s despite Toyota delivering almost eight times more cars than Tesla during the same time.*


----------



## Alex321 (12 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I heard a very interesting statistic.
> 
> Tesla has 8 times the profit of Toyota. Which you think wow, but when you read this, it really makes you understand how Tesla have used vertical integration, streamlined their models and used OTA software to upgrade vehicles without massive dealer networks
> 
> *Tesla reported $3.29 billion in net profit last quarter compared to Toyota earning 434.2 billion yen (roughly $3.15 billion USD). That’s despite Toyota delivering almost eight times more cars than Tesla during the same time.*



That is 8 times the profit *per car sold*, not 8 times the profit overall.


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## cougie uk (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> You make it sound like an every day thing ? Seriously I’ve never seen it in my 30 odd years of driving ? Miss fuelling , for sure as I’m guilty of it once but not driving off with the pump connected ?? How can that be possible , even pay at the pump ??



Happens enough for a compilation clip of it. 
Never underestimate how dumb people are. 


View: https://youtu.be/ZTxn44xPgtM


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## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Tesla-software company that makes EVs
> VW until recently ICE car manufacturer


Exactly that. VW are trying hard to catch up (along with all the other ICE manufacturers), but they are still way behind.


----------



## icowden (12 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Happens enough for a compilation clip of it.
> Never underestimate how dumb people are.


They will all be American rather than British as we take off the little clips that allow you to leave the pump nozzle fuelling, and we don't do pay in advance like many US gas stations do.

I well remember the first time I hired a car in the US and went to fill it up. Just looking at the pump and wondering why the cashier wasn't switching it on...
"Sir - you need to pay for your fuel first".


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## Alex321 (12 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> They will all be American rather than British as we take off the little clips that allow you to leave the pump nozzle fuelling, and we don't do pay in advance like many US gas stations do.
> 
> I well remember the first time I hired a car in the US and went to fill it up. Just looking at the pump and wondering why the cashier wasn't switching it on...
> "Sir - you need to pay for your fuel first".



If you actually watched the clip, most of them weren't American (though also not British). Where there were voices, they were speaking "foreign".

I suspect it happens quite a bit in those countries which do still have that clip, because people will leave it filling and go to the cashier, so they can pay as soon as it stops, then get distracted in the way back to the car, and forget they haven't removed it.


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## CXRAndy (12 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> That is 8 times the profit *per car sold*, not 8 times the profit overall.



Yes realised missing few words


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## MrGrumpy (12 Dec 2022)

_Well yes it does indicate some lack of planning!  
However I'd challenge "not possible". They're going to have to fit them sooner or later or they'll struggle to sell/rent those flats!_

It’s going to be an interesting point but as all House holders in the estate pay a fee for upkeep of grounds etc , this would be an added cost and presume contract for maintenance. Don’t think I’ll be voting it in, not my problem !


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## Chislenko (12 Dec 2022)

icowden said:


> They will all be American rather than British as we take off the little clips that allow you to leave the pump nozzle fuelling, and we don't do pay in advance like many US gas stations do.
> 
> I well remember the first time I hired a car in the US and went to fill it up. Just looking at the pump and wondering why the cashier wasn't switching it on...
> "Sir - you need to pay for your fuel first".



Pay in advance at Costco in the UK and I think at quite a few petrol stations at night when they become"Pay At Machine " only.


----------



## cougie uk (12 Dec 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> _Well yes it does indicate some lack of planning!
> However I'd challenge "not possible". They're going to have to fit them sooner or later or they'll struggle to sell/rent those flats!_
> 
> It’s going to be an interesting point but as all House holders in the estate pay a fee for upkeep of grounds etc , this would be an added cost and presume contract for maintenance. Don’t think I’ll be voting it in, not my problem !



Might be in a few years though?


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## Alex321 (12 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Pay in advance at Costco in the UK and I think at quite a few petrol stations at night when they become"Pay At Machine " only.



Those aren't actually pay in advance, you are just authorising your card in advance. The payment isn't taken until you stop filling. It doesn't know in advance how much to charge unless you choose one of the preset amount options that some pumps have.


----------



## icowden (13 Dec 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Pay in advance at Costco in the UK and I think at quite a few petrol stations at night when they become"Pay At Machine " only.



What @Alex321 said. In the US you have to actually give them the money. If you want a full tank you hand over $100 or whatever then get re-credited if you don't spend the $100. Totally different to here. But they do get the little catch that allows you to leave the pump uncontrollably filling your car whereas we decided that was dangerous.


----------



## vickster (13 Dec 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Those aren't actually pay in advance, you are just authorising your card in advance. The payment isn't taken until you stop filling. It doesn't know in advance how much to charge unless* you choose one of the preset amount options that some pumps have.*



And even then the full amount that could have been charged will show as pending on CC (at least with Amex at local Tesco)


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## Richard A Thackeray (17 Dec 2022)

0-60 MPH; 1.4 seconds (in 75 feet!!!)
0-100MPH; 2.6 seconds
0-145MPH; 4.9 seconds
1/4 mile; 8.35 seconds



View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TptzkkbC1vE


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## CXRAndy (18 Dec 2022)

Absolutely love fantastic technology.

Just imagine in a few years road cars with fan driven down force 😅


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## cougie uk (18 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Absolutely love fantastic technology.
> 
> Just imagine in a few years road cars with fan driven down force 😅



Someone needs to test it on our current icy conditions!


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (18 Dec 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Someone needs to test it on our current icy conditions!


What time would it post on the _Top Gear Test-Track_, or at the Nurburgring?


----------



## gbb (18 Dec 2022)

Just a passing comment but I'd be a bit miffed were I driving to my local shopping centre...to find 3 of 4 charging points filled with cars...not actually on charge. One was a DPD e transit van , one i couldn't tell was even an ev, one was an ev but not on charge.
Its not as though the carpark was even anywhere near full.


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## CXRAndy (18 Dec 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> What time would it post on the _Top Gear Test-Track_, or at the Nurburgring?



I'd suspect it would take the lap record. It would need the top speed lifting from current Goodwood settings of 150mph

*Porsche 919 Hybrid Evo – 5:19.546 – 2018 is the current fastest time.*


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## CXRAndy (18 Dec 2022)

gbb said:


> Just a passing comment but I'd be a bit miffed were I driving to my local shopping centre...to find 3 of 4 charging points filled with cars...not actually on charge. One was a DPD e transit van , one i couldn't tell was even an ev, one was an ev but not on charge.
> Its not as though the carpark was even anywhere near full.



So would I, 

I went to a service station where there were 18 Tesla chargers. I wasn't there to charge, so didn't take any of the free bays available. 

Its not really difficult to add surveillance and charge non users on electric charge bays. log and link the time to the charger usage. Send out fixed penalty-say £150, instantly problem solved


----------



## figbat (18 Dec 2022)

We’re already seeing the same sort of entitlement that some people with grown up kids - “I am a parent with child so I’ll use those spaces”. “I am driving an EV (or worse, a PHEV) so I can park in these EV priority spaces”.

ICE cars parking in EV spaces is akin to the able-bodied using disabled spaces.


----------



## Jameshow (18 Dec 2022)

Verwood Lidl OAP parking across the road whilst kiddies park next to store!! 😡😡


----------



## Illaveago (30 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Absolutely love fantastic technology.
> 
> Just imagine in a few years road cars with fan driven down force 😅



Ooh! That would sound nice on the roads that they put fresh gravel on in the summer !


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (30 Dec 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Its not really difficult to add surveillance and charge non users on electric charge bays. log and link the time to the charger usage. Send out fixed penalty-say £150, instantly problem solved


A simple ANPR camera system incorporated into each charging point would suffice. Captures the VRN and if not used for charging, or if a significant overstay after charging, issues a penalty charge.

If only people had morals, then that wouldn't be required.


----------



## CXRAndy (Saturday at 22:02)

Electric cars outsold diesel's in 2022 claiming 16% of the market. Emissions overall falling from vehicles


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## DRM (Sunday at 09:33)

CXRAndy said:


> Electric cars outsold diesel's in 2022 claiming 16% of the market. Emissions overall falling from vehicles



Yet nowhere near Petrol car sales, at 56% of sales, Diesel sales have plummeted due to the faff, & faults from Ad-Blue & DPF systems, and increasing clean air zones up & down the country.


----------



## MrGrumpy (Sunday at 10:52)

DRM said:


> Yet nowhere near Petrol car sales, at 56% of sales, Diesel sales have plummeted due to the faff, & faults from Ad-Blue & DPF systems, and increasing clean air zones up & down the country.



Indeed I’d agree with that , many have switched to petrol/hybrid instead . To be honest , it’s where my head would be currently ?!


----------



## cougie uk (Sunday at 15:48)

MrGrumpy said:


> Indeed I’d agree with that , many have switched to petrol/hybrid instead . To be honest , it’s where my head would be currently ?!



With petrol prices today? Nooo. Full electric for me please.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (Sunday at 16:01)




----------



## midlife (Sunday at 16:14)

Looking at the website for the above chart. The interactive regional map is interesting.

https://newautomotive.org/ecc


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## Joey Shabadoo (Sunday at 17:01)

midlife said:


> Looking at the website for the above chart. The interactive regional map is interesting.
> 
> https://newautomotive.org/ecc



Loads of interesting data there


----------



## cyberknight (Sunday at 17:04)

Jameshow said:


> Verwood Lidl OAP parking across the road whilst kiddies park next to store!! 😡😡



same everywhere, self entitled folk who cant be assed to walk an extra 20 feet taking disabled/ kiddy spaces forcing those in need to struggle


----------



## CXRAndy (Sunday at 19:12)

DRM said:


> Yet nowhere near Petrol car sales, at 56% of sales, Diesel sales have plummeted due to the faff, & faults from Ad-Blue & DPF systems, and increasing clean air zones up & down the country.



Petrol will be next to be squeezed on emissions. Towns and cities will introduce further charges to dissuade drivers. This will lead to more EV sales.


----------



## DRM (Sunday at 19:35)

CXRAndy said:


> Petrol will be next to be squeezed on emissions. Towns and cities will introduce further charges to dissuade drivers. This will lead to more EV sales.



I don’t think they will, local example of Bradford, they’re clamping down on vans/HGV’s, penalising those who deliver services & goods, whilst ignoring all the clapped out diesel cars clogging up the roads, terrified of losing people’s votes imho


----------



## midlife (Sunday at 19:38)

Even if the government extended the London style ULEZ zone to the whole of the UK that would only mean petrol cars before 2005 (ish) would be fined or excluded

The government will look at taxing EVs first to keep up revenue.


----------



## fossyant (Sunday at 19:39)

DRM said:


> I don’t think they will, local example of Bradford, they’re clamping down on vans/HGV’s, penalising those who deliver services & goods, whilst ignoring all the clapped out diesel cars clogging up the roads, terrified of losing people’s votes imho



Electric cars are out of most people's reach in terms of cost. Unless the prices come down, people will keep their fossil burners.


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## DRM (Sunday at 19:46)

fossyant said:


> Electric cars are out of most people's reach in terms of cost. Unless the prices come down, people will keep their fossil burners.



That’s right, I certainly can’t afford one, and intend to keep our car going as long as possible


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## CXRAndy (Sunday at 19:53)

DRM said:


> That’s right, I certainly can’t afford one, and intend to keep our car going as long as possible



As seen from the continued acceleration of EV ownership, many folk can and are swapping out their ICE vehicles


----------



## Jameshow (Sunday at 19:56)

CXRAndy said:


> As seen from the continued acceleration of EV ownership, many folk can and are swapping out their ICE vehicles



Only those who can afford to or need to. 

I don't think people are swapping to EV just because it's an ev esp in the cost of living crisis.


----------



## DRM (Sunday at 19:58)

CXRAndy said:


> As seen from the continued acceleration of EV ownership, many folk can and are swapping out their ICE vehicles



Many of these are company cars, due to the tax situation, same as when company car drivers found out that you could get a double cab pick up with BIK tax same as a van, all they did was wreck the one benefit company van drivers had, then went on the next tax fiddle


----------



## midlife (Sunday at 20:19)

Most cars are bought used, interesting stats from the smmt.

Never knew that so many changed hands, over 7 million in 2021.! Mostly ICE

https://www.smmt.co.uk/category/vehicle-data/used-car-sales-data/


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## figbat (Sunday at 20:25)

DRM said:


> I don’t think they will, local example of Bradford, they’re clamping down on vans/HGV’s, penalising those who deliver services & goods, whilst ignoring all the clapped out diesel cars clogging up the roads, terrified of losing people’s votes imho



Oxford have a small ZEZ which is expanding soon - no emitters allowed.


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## classic33 (Sunday at 20:37)

DRM said:


> I don’t think they will, local example of Bradford, they’re clamping down on vans/HGV’s, penalising those who deliver services & goods, whilst ignoring all the clapped out diesel cars clogging up the roads, terrified of losing people’s votes imho


Local "clean air zone" at Godley Bank from the roundabout on the same side of North Bridge, on the A58, may soon be subject to similar charges. 

Heavy vehicles only way of avoiding it would be to head to Queensbury, or skirting the town centre and heading out to Elland. But the council will have been seen as taking action.


----------



## midlife (Sunday at 20:54)

figbat said:


> Oxford have a small ZEZ which is expanding soon - no emitters allowed.



Not heard of that so had a look. Reminds me of a 70's pedestrianised precinct with silent EVs to run you over lol

Seriously though, would be better if town centres simply banned private cars.


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## Alex321 (Sunday at 21:16)

fossyant said:


> Electric cars are out of most people's reach in terms of cost. Unless the prices come down, people will keep their fossil burners.



Prices will come down, of course.

From the chart above, more pure electric cars sold that petrol in December. And electric + hybrid make up over half the total sales.

And as those cars start to feed through into the 2nd hand market, prices are bound to fall to more reasonable levels.


----------



## Alex321 (Sunday at 21:19)

Jameshow said:


> Only those who can afford to or need to.
> 
> I don't think people are swapping to EV just because it's an ev esp in the cost of living crisis.



I would imagine almost everybody who buys an EV are doing so mainly because it is an EV. The cost of living crisis may make people less likely to swap their car at all, but will have no impact on the reason why those who buy an EV do so.


----------



## CXRAndy (Sunday at 21:21)

This year there are many new small EVs coming, fiat, Renault, Citroen


----------



## presta (Sunday at 21:52)

Giles is not a happy bunny:
Why I've Pulled the Plug on my Electric Car
The best quote of the piece is is "I'm just a car mechanic. And this is not a car, it's a laptop on wheels.".


----------



## Jameshow (Sunday at 22:07)

Alex321 said:


> I would imagine almost everybody who buys an EV are doing so mainly because it is an EV. The cost of living crisis may make people less likely to swap their car at all, but will have no impact on the reason why those who buy an EV do so.



What I meant was that people are buying an ev because they need or want a new car, not oh carp my fossil fuel car isn't ev I must swap it for an ev! 

£50000 of ev will pay for alot of Dino juice!


----------



## cougie uk (Sunday at 23:16)

Jameshow said:


> What I meant was that people are buying an ev because they need or want a new car, not oh carp my fossil fuel car isn't ev I must swap it for an ev!
> 
> £50000 of ev will pay for alot of Dino juice!



My ev was about 1/3 of that and saves over £100 a month on petrol costs at least.


----------



## Alex321 (Monday at 01:09)

Jameshow said:


> What I meant was that people are buying an ev because they need or want a new car, not oh carp my fossil fuel car isn't ev I must swap it for an ev!


That I would agree with. 



Jameshow said:


> £50000 of ev will pay for alot of Dino juice!



It will, but there are a good number of EV's around now for around half that new.

The price IS coming down, and fairly quickly.


----------



## Arrowfoot (Monday at 01:55)

My sense is that nearly everyone is aware that EV is the future and the need to protect the environment. The current challenge is the price and charging infrastructure. So no need to repeat the climate mantra. 

Slightly more than 3 years ago Tesla said they expect to see prices for EV halved in 3 years time and it did not take place. In fact it increased.


----------



## CXRAndy (Monday at 06:27)

Arrowfoot said:


> My sense is that nearly everyone is aware that EV is the future and the need to protect the environment. The current challenge is the price and charging infrastructure. So no need to repeat the climate mantra.
> 
> Slightly more than 3 years ago Tesla said they expect to see prices for EV halved in 3 years time and it did not take place. In fact it increased.



For many the charging infrastructure is already there. The vast majority charge at home overnight. 

95% of driving each day is no more than 35miles. So there is no necessity to visit superchargers away from home.

The same comments were made when internal combustion engine cars started to increase in the early 1900's. Infrastructures will improve, but with electricity at every home, the network is already in place mostly

I think a global pandemic had a big impact on supply chains, creating supply demand backlogs, effecting prices


----------



## BrumJim (Monday at 08:28)

presta said:


> Giles is not a happy bunny:
> Why I've Pulled the Plug on my Electric Car
> The best quote of the piece is is "I'm just a car mechanic. And this is not a car, it's a laptop on wheels.".



I like Giles, but he is a self-confessed ****-hole at times.

The "laptop on wheels" is a line that has been trotted out all of my life, right back when electronics were first introduced into cars. It will only get worse (/better) whatever you drive.

In terms of reliability, electric cars are inherently more reliable than diesel or petrol ones, by comparison to trains. Novelty and numbers means that there may be a problem with electric cars at the start, which may or may not be tied to specific manufacturers. As volumes and experience increase, I expect to see electric cars get a lot more reliable and need much less maintenance than their predecessors.


----------



## Alex321 (Monday at 08:58)

BrumJim said:


> In terms of reliability, *electric cars are inherently more reliable than diesel or electric ones*, by comparison to trains. Novelty and numbers means that there may be a problem with electric cars at the start, which may or may not be tied to specific manufacturers.



2nd "electric" a mis-type?


----------



## CXRAndy (Monday at 09:05)

Alex321 said:


> 2nd "electric" a mis-type?



I think he possibly meant Petrol cars


----------



## BrumJim (Monday at 10:37)

Alex321 said:


> 2nd "electric" a mis-type?



Corrected. Sorry!


----------



## cougie uk (Monday at 11:10)

presta said:


> Giles is not a happy bunny:
> Why I've Pulled the Plug on my Electric Car
> The best quote of the piece is is "I'm just a car mechanic. And this is not a car, it's a laptop on wheels.".



He's an awful human being so I'll never read any of his rubbish.


----------



## icowden (Monday at 11:26)

BrumJim said:


> I like Giles, but he is a self-confessed ****-hole at times.


It's interesting that he is having a rant about his Jaguar i-Pace. The same newspaper carried a very similar rant from Adam Kay about his Jaguar i-Pace.
I'm starting to think the issue is ****-holes from the Times buying Jags instead of a really good EV designed as such from the bottom up and not taking the time to plan journeys or learn how to use Zap Map.

Assuming he was staying in St Ives and going back to Kentish town, he would be travelling 315 miles. Yet he couldn't plan to find a single turbo charger once.
The gearbox fault seems to be a known issue with the i-Pace caused by "no retention to the front electric drive unit causing strain on the wiring going to the EDU parking lock actuator connector". Which sounds like crap design to me.

Should have got a Tesla...


----------



## CXRAndy (Monday at 11:59)

Our friends bought a BMW EV. She seems to be having usage issues. Ran it flat in Birmingham 🤔

The two obvious issues are she really hasn't embraced the EV concept, learning your cars range, using the likes of ZapMap and other rapid charger apps. And the biggest issue. 

She has a very heavy right foot. I mean everywhere is fast like 90 on a motorway. This will ruin the predicted range, just like in a ICE car.

I know from doing 130mph on the Autobahns in my Model S how much the range drops down.🤣

Doesn't even have a dedicated charger at home. Yes they have facilities to install

I can see her selling it, because
'its faulty'

They do like their stupid German cars🤪


----------



## matticus (Monday at 12:14)

icowden said:


> The same newspaper carried a very similar rant from Adam Kay about his Jaguar i-Pace.
> I'm starting to think the issue is ****-holes from the Times buying


Interesting that you think Coren AND Adam Kay are ****-holes. I hope to meet your friends one day, they must be all saints!


----------



## KnittyNorah (Monday at 12:57)

As a now-non-driver (for a range of reasons) looking from the outside into the world of electric vehicles, I wonder if reviving the old motorail services might be a consideration - useful for those who will be buying 2nd hand cars with reduced range, and those buying the smaller, lighter e-cars with reduced range which will suitable for many people's normal everyday usage and will surely be available at lower prices in the next 5 - 10 years.

Put your car on the train in Birmingham and get off with it in Lyons, Verona or Warsaw ... Closer to home, put your car on the train in London, get off in Dundee. Car on train on Carlisle, get off in Cornwall ... 
Once you are in the area of your destination, you can 'top up' in your normal way. Of course it wouldn't work for a touring holiday, but for a destination holiday, it would seem ideal.


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (Monday at 13:27)

Where I live there are no EV charging points in the car parking area. There are a few publicly accessible ones about a mile away. 

There are also no EV charging points on the site I am based despite the health board pushing EVs as leased vehicles where possible. 

A company engineer told me recently that he got range anxiety coming to us and the cold weather hammered his range and there was no EV charging close to us. 

Until these problems get sorted I’m afraid I’ll being sticking to the internal combustion engine.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (Monday at 13:40)

KnittyNorah said:


> As a now-non-driver (for a range of reasons) looking from the outside into the world of electric vehicles, I wonder if reviving the old motorail services might be a consideration - useful for those who will be buying 2nd hand cars with reduced range, and those buying the smaller, lighter e-cars with reduced range which will suitable for many people's normal everyday usage and will surely be available at lower prices in the next 5 - 10 years.
> 
> Put your car on the train in Birmingham and get off with it in Lyons, Verona or Warsaw ... Closer to home, put your car on the train in London, get off in Dundee. Car on train on Carlisle, get off in Cornwall ...
> Once you are in the area of your destination, you can 'top up' in your normal way. Of course it wouldn't work for a touring holiday, but for a destination holiday, it would seem ideal.



Have you tried travelling by rail in UK recently? It is almost impossible to get a seat on the train you intended to travel on, usually because it isn't running, doesn't have enough carriages/seats, doesn't bother to stop at your station because it is already full, and for longer (domestic) journeys, is more expensive than flying or even driving, or takes longer than other options..

I've twice considered rail for longer journeys to an attempt to avoid flying. One trip from near Edinburgh to NEC Birmingham to attend a trade show (which I used to be able to do n a day by flying); 5+hrs each way, inconvenient times, very costly and would involve an overnight stay.
The other was to Girona in Spain for a holiday; the longest and most expensive section was travel to London to catch the the Eurostar. The time, costs and distances from there on were quite manageable


----------



## KnittyNorah (Monday at 13:54)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Have you tried travelling by rail in UK recently? It is almost impossible to get a seat on the train you intended to travel on, usually because it isn't running, doesn't have enough carriages/seats, doesn't bother to stop at your station because it is already full, and for longer (domestic) journeys, is more expensive than flying or even driving, or takes longer than other options..
> 
> I've twice considered rail for longer journeys to an attempt to avoid flying. One trip from near Edinburgh to NEC Birmingham to attend a trade show (which I used to be able to do n a day by flying); 5+hrs each way, inconvenient times, very costly and would involve an overnight stay.
> The other was to Girona in Spain for a holiday; the longest and most expensive section was travel to London to catch the the Eurostar. The time, costs and distances from there on were quite manageable



Motorrail is (or rather, _was_, in the main) a very different service 'normal' rail services. International and long-distance. Maybe you don't remember it? the last motorrail services ran in the UK in 1995. See here for a brief explanation and description of remaining and former routes
Obviously I don't expect any rail service in the UK to be reliable at this point in time, but it is certain that big changes must come in the way that we travel - IF we are to continue travelling. 
There are still (a very few) motorrail services in Europe and it seems to me it is something that could/should be looked into expanding rather than contracting - motorrail services would be a great boon to those who have evs with a shorter 'commuting' type of range.


----------



## matticus (Monday at 13:55)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> The other was *to Girona in Spain* for a holiday; the longest and most expensive section was travel to London to catch the the Eurostar. The time, costs and distances from there on were quite manageable



So that shows these things are possible.

(I've never used the service - or even seen it! - but didn't the French run a motorail-type service from Paris-to-Med quite recently?


----------



## KnittyNorah (Monday at 14:07)

matticus said:


> So that shows these things are possible.
> 
> (I've never used the service - or even seen it! - but didn't the French run a motorail-type service from Paris-to-Med quite recently?



SNCF (French Railways) used to offer an all-year-round Auto-train service from Paris to Avignon, Marseille, Toulon, St Raphael, Nice. However, Auto-Train was discontinued completely from December 2019. From The man in seat 61
.


----------



## Alex321 (Monday at 14:07)

matticus said:


> So that shows these things are possible.
> 
> (I've never used the service - or even seen it! - but didn't the French run a motorail-type service from Paris-to-Med quite recently?



Depends what you mean by quite recently, but yes, I remember looking into it as a possibility when we were thinking of going to Italy for a holiday one year. That holiday never actually happened, so I didn't use it, but they were definitely running it then, about 20 years ago.


----------



## matticus (Monday at 14:21)

Alex321 said:


> Depends what you mean by quite recently



I'll take "December 2019" as corroborating my anecdote! :P


----------



## icowden (Monday at 14:32)

matticus said:


> Interesting that you think Coren AND Adam Kay are ****-holes. I hope to meet your friends one day, they must be all saints!



I was paraphrasing @BrumJim. I think Giles Coren is a bit of a nobber and Adam Kay is quite funny. I think both of them are idiots for choosing the i-pace out of all the cars they could have had. Quite why anyone would choose it over a Tesla, Polestar, Ioniq, or ID4/5 is beyond me.


----------



## MrGrumpy (Monday at 18:55)

think we will be waiting a while before we move to an EV. Probably go hybrid route next. Should allow more choice in the second hand market eventually .


----------



## Rusty Nails (Monday at 20:00)

MrGrumpy said:


> think we will be waiting a while before we move to an EV. Probably go hybrid route next. Should allow more choice in the second hand market eventually .



I will be taking delivery of my new ICE Karoq this week. I seriously thought about and looked into, buying an electric car, and I will one day, but I want my driving to be as hassle free as possible; short holiday breaks around the country, frequent trips to London, without the need for planning journey breaks and lengths of stops or looking for convenient charging points in cities. I am not at all a lover of cars for anything other than safe, hassle free motoring, and am quite happy to wait until the number of early adopters have led to the inevitable improvements in the charging infrastructure, plus further improvement in the range supplied by batteries...and until the prices come down further.
If my new car is anything like my old Yeti I should be able to get around 500 miles between refills which covers most of my trips without a refill, or at the most one ten minute stop.


----------



## Arrowfoot (Monday at 23:18)

CXRAndy said:


> The same comments were made when internal combustion engine cars started to increase in the early 1900's. Infrastructures will improve, but with electricity at every home, the network is already in place mostly


Any documented source to this early 1900s claim as none of us were born then? I would have thought that most could not afford it then.

Charging infrastructure as in network across travel routes and the availability of superchargers similar to refuelling at a garage in quick time. Currently there is no reasonable comparison to ICE when it comes to convenience and peace of mind. Range anxiety is not an issue and you do not work around the car but the car works for you.

EV is certainly the future and I explained in my post the mantra is well understood.


----------



## cougie uk (Monday at 23:23)

The first Porsche was electric. 
They've gone full circle.


----------



## icowden (Monday at 23:56)

Arrowfoot said:


> Range anxiety is not an issue and you do not work around the car but the car works for you.


You are describing an EV there once you have owned it for a few months.


----------



## Jameshow (Tuesday at 07:42)

Arrowfoot said:


> Any documented source to this early 1900s claim as none of us were born then? I would have thought that most could not afford it then.
> 
> Charging infrastructure as in network across travel routes and the availability of superchargers similar to refuelling at a garage in quick time. Currently there is no reasonable comparison to ICE when it comes to convenience and peace of mind. Range anxiety is not an issue and you do not work around the car but the car works for you.
> 
> EV is certainly the future and I explained in my post the mantra is well understood.



Inn 1900 they had rutted roads 

Buy 1960 they had the M1???


----------



## fossyant (Tuesday at 08:25)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Have you tried travelling by rail in UK recently?



I've given up even trying to use rail locally, binned off the idea of an evening out with a nice Meal and entertainment a few times the last few months. I'll just ride to work and stay home !


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## nickyboy (Tuesday at 10:05)

Bit of an update...took delivery of the PHEV a couple of months ago. Does all the things you expect a new car to do and we have got into the habit of sticking it on charge when we get home unless it is more than 3/4 charged. Electric range is about 35 miles which covers almost all our day to day driving. I think the only time it went onto full petrol was a day over Xmas when I had to go to Manchester and back twice and didn't have enough time between to recharge
Interesting that when on automatic hybrid engine management it uses a reasonable amount of petrol which presumably is when accelerating 

It has a calculator which estimates the mpg obtained based on charging history, driving style etc. Having done about 1000 miles it is 90mpg. Regularly on electric only, smooth drives it will record 160mpg and this is quite a large car


----------



## figbat (Tuesday at 12:04)

nickyboy said:


> Bit of an update...took delivery of the PHEV a couple of months ago. Does all the things you expect a new car to do and we have got into the habit of sticking it on charge when we get home unless it is more than 3/4 charged. Electric range is about 35 miles which covers almost all our day to day driving. I think the only time it went onto full petrol was a day over Xmas when I had to go to Manchester and back twice and didn't have enough time between to recharge
> Interesting that when on automatic hybrid engine management it uses a reasonable amount of petrol which presumably is when accelerating
> 
> It has a calculator which estimates the mpg obtained based on charging history, driving style etc. Having done about 1000 miles it is 90mpg. Regularly on electric only, smooth drives it will record 160mpg and this is quite a large car



My one reservation about this scenario is that you are using the EV traction almost exclusively, so you are carrying around a redundant engine, gearbox and fuel tank almost all the time. Yes, it's nice when you get to use it but your EV miles will be compromised by it. It would be nice if you could keep the engine in the garage and only attach it when you know you'll need it. I had an idea once (which no doubt is not original) of a range extending trailer for EVs - an engine-driven generator that you hitch up as needed for range extension.


----------



## CXRAndy (Tuesday at 12:11)

Arrowfoot said:


> Any documented source to this early 1900s claim as none of us were born then? I would have thought that most could not afford it then



Here is a little post about the early days of ICE ownership, lack of fuel availablity and what owners did when wanting longer journeys

https://americacomesalive.com/when-...-were-first-used-where-did-they-get-gasoline/


----------



## CXRAndy (Tuesday at 12:18)

Hybrids are a con, they are sold to keep the ICE from being tossed on the scrapheap of history. 

I bought one, but soon realised I should have gone straight to full electric. My Hydrid was chopped in for a Tesla model S. 

Not looked back since. 

We run 3 full EVs in our family now, soon to 4 and maybe 5 in few years time.

We do a cumulative 40-50k miles a year, which 99% is done from home charging


----------



## nickyboy (Tuesday at 13:34)

figbat said:


> My one reservation about this scenario is that you are using the EV traction almost exclusively, so you are carrying around a redundant engine, gearbox and fuel tank almost all the time. Yes, it's nice when you get to use it but your EV miles will be compromised by it. It would be nice if you could keep the engine in the garage and only attach it when you know you'll need it. I had an idea once (which no doubt is not original) of a range extending trailer for EVs - an engine-driven generator that you hitch up as needed for range extension.



Yes I recognise this and mitigate the impact by only carrying less than a 1/4 tank of petrol for emergencies. The reasons are two fold:

1) Mrs N was worrying quite a lot about the logistics of, say, a holiday in a cottage in Devon with no charging facility
2) For the type of vehicle we wanted (4WD SUV) the only EV was/is the Audi Etron and that was too expensive. There is a reasonable selection of PHEVs. Before anyone moans, we live in an area prone to snow and are on a 16% hill and have been stuck at home for days with just a 2WD vehicle


----------



## midlife (Tuesday at 13:50)

Section at the end of this article on EV costs..
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64222643


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 13:52)

nickyboy said:


> 2) For the type of vehicle we wanted (4WD SUV) the only EV was/is the Audi Etron and that was too expensive. There is a reasonable selection of PHEVs. Before anyone moans, we live in an area prone to snow and are on a 16% hill and have been stuck at home for days with just a 2WD vehicle


Yes - a lot more choice now on the 4WD front. I think when you were looking there were other 4WDs (e.g. Tesla X) but again at the very expensive end of the range. You now have the Enyaq, Tesla Y, Ioniq 5 to name but a few in the mid-range.


----------



## midlife (Tuesday at 13:56)

icowden said:


> Yes - a lot more choice now on the 4WD front. I think when you were looking there were other 4WDs (e.g. Tesla X) but again at the very expensive end of the range. You now have the Enyaq, Tesla Y, Ioniq 5 to name but a few in the mid-range.



Not sure I'd class the Tesla Y at £52000 to £65000 as mid range.


----------



## shep (Tuesday at 14:01)

midlife said:


> Not sure I'd class the Tesla Y at £52000 to £65000 as mid range.



C'mon now, doesn't everybody have a 'mid range' car on their drive?

Talk about 'out of touch'!


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 14:29)

midlife said:


> Not sure I'd class the Tesla Y at £52000 to £65000 as mid range.



Elon Musk would. Don't forget that that price is a little bit due to the Government. In the US it starts at £47000 and many states have a tax incentive to reduce it further. Get one in Norway and it's £35,000. That's the difference between a Government with vision, and one without.


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 14:30)

shep said:


> C'mon now, doesn't everybody have a 'mid range' car on their drive?


Mid range for EVs obviously. At the moment for new cars, cheap = £20k to £40k. Mid=£40k to £60k and Luxury=over £60k (banding is a guess and approximate).

Even with ICE, cars aren't cheap. Average Hatchback is £21k which isn't that far off the smaller EVs. Average SUV is £38k which isn't that far off the lower end of the SUV type EVs. When I bought my Grand Scenic in 2012 it was 13k (reduced from 15k due to dealer registration) new. The same car now is between 23k and 31k.


----------



## Jameshow (Tuesday at 15:01)

icowden said:


> Elon Musk would. Don't forget that that price is a little bit due to the Government. In the US it starts at £47000 and many states have a tax incentive to reduce it further. Get one in Norway and it's £35,000. That's the difference between a Government with vision, and one without.



Norway renewable energy percentage 98% 

UK 36% 

Therefore 64% of EV energy are just as poluting as ice cars... 

Also take drax and simalar generators out which aren't green and are ruining masses of Canadian forest and I bet its below 30%....


----------



## All uphill (Tuesday at 15:04)

KnittyNorah said:


> As a now-non-driver (for a range of reasons) looking from the outside into the world of electric vehicles, I wonder if reviving the old motorail services might be a consideration - useful for those who will be buying 2nd hand cars with reduced range, and those buying the smaller, lighter e-cars with reduced range which will suitable for many people's normal everyday usage and will surely be available at lower prices in the next 5 - 10 years.
> 
> Put your car on the train in Birmingham and get off with it in Lyons, Verona or Warsaw ... Closer to home, put your car on the train in London, get off in Dundee. Car on train on Carlisle, get off in Cornwall ...
> Once you are in the area of your destination, you can 'top up' in your normal way. Of course it wouldn't work for a touring holiday, but for a destination holiday, it would seem ideal.



Or just leave the car at home?

Hire one at your destination if you have to.


----------



## FishFright (Tuesday at 15:14)

Jameshow said:


> Norway renewable energy percentage 98%
> 
> UK 36%
> 
> ...



Sorry to burst your bubble but petrol is 100% non renewable and always will be. 

I find it's handy to remember that kind of thing before you post.


----------



## KnittyNorah (Tuesday at 15:24)

All uphill said:


> Or just leave the car at home?
> 
> Hire one at your destination if you have to.



That will only work for some people, depending on what they need to carry with them on the first segment of their journey. 
It would work for me, if I still drove, and has worked for me in the past. 

With a partner, a couple of children, a tent and all the other camping stuff for two weeks, the dog, the kitchen sink, Uncle Tom Cobley and all - not a hope!


----------



## Alex321 (Tuesday at 15:24)

FishFright said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but petrol is 100% non renewable and always will be.
> 
> I find it's handy to remember that kind of thing before you post.



Not sure just what "bubble" of his you think you are bursting, or why you think he might not have remembered that.

He did say "Therefore 64% of EV energy are just as poluting as ice cars".

Although that was a rather awkward way of putting it, in that it isn't 64% of the vehicles but 64% of the usage.

But of course, what he failed to mention is that the proportion of renewable fuel used in UK electricity generation is rising every year, so that 64% will be reducing as it does.

What is also not accounted for in that crude 64% is how efficient the energy conversions involved are - I don't know the answers to this, but it probably is not an insignificant factor in any calculations as to how much "better" (or not) EVs are.


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 15:25)

Jameshow said:


> Norway renewable energy percentage 98%
> UK 36%
> Therefore 64% of EV energy are just as poluting as ice cars...
> Also take drax and simalar generators out which aren't green and are ruining masses of Canadian forest and I bet its below 30%....


So because our government is crap and hasn't invested in renewables this will never change so we shouldn't bother with EVs. Is that really your argument?

If we all have EVs then yes - at the moment our energy generates some pollution BUT (and here's the magic bit). If we change how we generate electricity THEY ALL BECOME NON POLLUTING!! It's MAGIC!!

PS - Your figures are also inaccurate. AT the time of writing, 54.1% of Electricity was coming from renewables and 13% from Nuclear. 15% was imported energy. At 2am this morning nearly all of it was coming from Nuclear and wind. So only 15% was coming from burning gas (fairly clean) and burning wood pellets (not clean at all).


----------



## cougie uk (Tuesday at 15:31)

I'm on a green tariff with octopus and getting solar next week so almost 100% of my miles are green. 
And 1/4 the cost of petrol miles.


----------



## midlife (Tuesday at 15:32)

shep said:


> C'mon now, doesn't everybody have a 'mid range' car on their drive?
> 
> Talk about 'out of touch'!



Got a £3k Ford Ka on the drive...........so obviously I'm a prol.


----------



## shep (Tuesday at 15:33)

midlife said:


> Got a £3k Ford Ka on the drive...........so obviously I'm a prol.



Show off!


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 15:33)

Alex321 said:


> Not sure just what "bubble" of his you think you are bursting, or why you think he might not have remembered that.
> He did say "Therefore 64% of EV energy are just as poluting as ice cars".
> Although that was a rather awkward way of putting it, in that it isn't 64% of the vehicles but 64% of the usage.


It's not even that. Burning gas en-masse for example is still cleaner than burning diesel and petrol in individual engines.


----------



## Jameshow (Tuesday at 15:33)

icowden said:


> So because our government is crap and hasn't invested in renewables this will never change so we shouldn't bother with EVs. Is that really your argument?
> 
> If we all have EVs then yes - at the moment our energy generates some pollution BUT (and here's the magic bit). If we change how we generate electricity THEY ALL BECOME NON POLLUTING!! It's MAGIC!!
> 
> PS - Your figures are also inaccurate. AT the time of writing, 54.1% of Electricity was coming from renewables and 13% from Nuclear. 15% was imported energy. At 2am this morning nearly all of it was coming from Nuclear and wind. So only 15% was coming from burning gas (fairly clean) and burning wood pellets (not clean at all).



I used last years figures so they are accurate. 

I just wanted to show the EV isn't as clean as everybody makes out.


shep said:


> Show off!



I got a £600 polo!! Beat that!!


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 15:39)

midlife said:


> Got a £3k Ford Ka on the drive...........so obviously I'm a prol.


Not really. But if you only drive it locally you can get a second hand Nissan Leaf for not much more. As we have said. There isn't really a second hand market at the moment for EVs as they are almost all new in relative terms. A 3K Ford Ka is from about 2012 / 2013. You won't find many EVs about from 2012/2013 as global EV sales mean there were only about 400,000 EVs in the world. In 2021 we bought almost 7 million EVs. In 2022 it is expected the figure will increase to 10 million. 

The second hand market will start to grow and in another 5 years will probably be thriving.


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## Alex321 (Tuesday at 15:40)

icowden said:


> It's not even that. Burning gas en-masse for example is still cleaner than burning diesel and petrol in individual engines.



Which is part of what I was getting at with my comment about efficiency of energy conversions.

But there are multiple conversions involved in each case, and working out which is actually more efficient overall when the EV is using electricity generated by fossil fuels from the grid is difficult.


----------



## FishFright (Tuesday at 15:40)

Alex321 said:


> Not sure just what "bubble" of his you think you are bursting, or why you think he might not have remembered that.
> 
> He did say "Therefore 64% of EV energy are just as poluting as ice cars".
> 
> ...



It was a jokey post but that's not polluting works so doubling down on incorrect things isn't good either.


----------



## Alex321 (Tuesday at 15:41)

icowden said:


> So because our government is crap and hasn't invested in renewables this will never change so we shouldn't bother with EVs. Is that really your argument?
> 
> If we all have EVs then yes - at the moment our energy generates some pollution BUT (and here's the magic bit). If we change how we generate electricity THEY ALL BECOME NON POLLUTING!! It's MAGIC!!
> 
> PS - Your figures are also inaccurate. AT the time of writing, 54.1% of Electricity was coming from renewables and 13% from Nuclear. 15% was imported energy. At 2am this morning nearly all of it was coming from Nuclear and wind. So only 15% was coming from burning gas (fairly clean) and burning wood pellets (not clean at all).



Burning wood pellets counts as "renewables" even though as you say, it is not clean. That was James' point about Drax & similar.


----------



## Alex321 (Tuesday at 15:42)

FishFright said:


> It was a jokey post but that's not polluting works so doubling down on incorrect things isn't good either.



What isn't how polluting works?


----------



## Sallar55 (Tuesday at 15:42)

In the 1st world we have passed over the pollution to the source, example lithium extraction. https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...s-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 15:44)

Jameshow said:


> I used last years figures so they are accurate.


Then I don't know where you got them from. National Grid say:-



> Here is the National Grid ESO’s breakdown of the 2022 electricity generation mix by technology:
> 
> Gas: 38.5%
> Wind: 26.8%
> ...


So I make that 33% from solar, hydro and wind. 5.5% imported. 15.5% Nuclear. That adds up to 53.5%. I know Nuclear isn't 100% clean, but it is a lot cleaner than Diesel. The worst offenders in that list are coal and biomass. Gas emits 30% less CO2 than oil. However we clearly need to reduce gas and build more renewables.


----------



## All uphill (Tuesday at 15:45)

When oldies start grumbling and nay-saying, isn't that the best indicator that change is happening?


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 15:45)

Sallar55 said:


> In the 1st world we have passed over the pollution to the source, example lithium extraction. https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...s-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future



Different kind of pollution and battery research is trying to move away from LIthium.


----------



## icowden (Tuesday at 15:46)

Alex321 said:


> Burning wood pellets counts as "renewables" even though as you say, it is not clean. That was James' point about Drax & similar.



And why I didn't count it. Wood pellets are obscene.


----------



## biggs682 (Tuesday at 15:59)

shep said:


> C'mon now, doesn't everybody have a 'mid range' car on their drive?
> 
> Talk about 'out of touch'!



12 year old Nissan Note hear


----------



## FishFright (Tuesday at 16:01)

Alex321 said:


> What isn't how polluting works?



See above


----------



## vickster (Tuesday at 16:13)

icowden said:


> Not really. But if you only drive it locally you can get a second hand Nissan Leaf for not much more. As we have said. There isn't really a second hand market at the moment for EVs as they are almost all new in relative terms. A 3K Ford Ka is from about 2012 / 2013. You won't find many EVs about from 2012/2013 as global EV sales mean there were only about 400,000 EVs in the world. In 2021 we bought almost 7 million EVs. In 2022 it is expected the figure will increase to 10 million.
> 
> The second hand market will start to grow and in another 5 years will probably be thriving.



Could you have afforded your EV if wasn't a company car? I.e. been in a situation comparable to much of the population who don't have access to essentially subsidised EVs?

Norway might have lots of EVs which are cheaper...however there are only around 5m Norwegians and much of their immense wealth to be able to provide cheaper EVs and infrastructure comes from oil to the tune of approx $540bn in 2022 (ironic?)...

Interested to know how does the UK compares on the EV front to other EU countries with a similar population (France, Italy, Germany, Spain?) or GDP per capita (Norway USD 89k, UK 46k, France 43k, Germany 51k)


----------



## Sallar55 (Tuesday at 16:18)

icowden said:


> Different kind of pollution and battery research is trying to move away from LIthium.


Let's hope that all of today's EV drivers are forced to pay for the clean up of that different pollution. ( it's not in my back yard so who cares attitude) . 🤔


----------



## MrGrumpy (Tuesday at 17:21)

vickster said:


> Could you have afforded your EV if wasn't a company car? I.e. been in a situation comparable to much of the population who don't have access to essentially subsidised EVs?


not many driving any new cars could afford them unless a company car !


----------



## vickster (Tuesday at 18:18)

MrGrumpy said:


> not many driving any new cars could afford them unless a company car !



Or on the never never or subsidised in some other way by an employer


----------



## MrGrumpy (Tuesday at 18:38)

Just read this on twitter “ EVs were designed to save the car industry not the planet “  

Probably fair comment really !


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (Tuesday at 19:24)

Strictly speaking, petrol is a renewable.

Just a question of timescales.


----------



## Alex321 (Tuesday at 21:05)

FishFright said:


> See above



So do I presume from that you don't have an answer, or just that you are too rude to provide one?

Because that most certainly isn't remotely close to answering my question.


----------



## Alex321 (Tuesday at 21:11)

vickster said:


> Interested to know how does the UK compares on the EV front to other EU countries with a similar population (France, Italy, Germany, Spain?) or GDP per capita (Norway USD 89k, UK 46k, France 43k, Germany 51k)


https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/electric-vehicles/chart-which-countries-buy-the-most-evs

According to that, France are almost identical to the UK at 19% of new vehicle sales, Germany are higher at 26%, Italy & Spain much lower at 9% and 8%.

Only Norway and Iceland are above 50%.


----------



## classic33 (Tuesday at 21:15)

Sallar55 said:


> In the 1st world we have passed over the pollution to the source, example lithium extraction. https://www.euronews.com/green/2022...s-reveal-the-dark-side-of-our-electric-future


They're not the cause of that, therefore it doesn't count as EV pollution


----------



## Jameshow (Tuesday at 22:08)

classic33 said:


> They're not the cause of that, therefore it doesn't count as EV pollution



If they didn't have massive lithium batteries there would be the lithium pollution or child exploitation..


----------



## CXRAndy (Tuesday at 23:21)

Lithium is used more in other industries by a factor of 200% compared to EV batteries.

Australia is the biggest lithium supplier in the world

Lithium comprises a tiny percentage of the chemistry make of a EV battery


----------



## Arrowfoot (Yesterday at 02:24)

vickster said:


> Could you have afforded your EV if wasn't a company car? I.e. been in a situation comparable to much of the population who don't have access to essentially subsidised EVs?
> 
> Norway might have lots of EVs which are cheaper...however there are only around 5m Norwegians and much of their immense wealth to be able to provide cheaper EVs and infrastructure comes from oil to the tune of approx $540bn in 2022 (ironic?)...
> 
> Interested to know how does the UK compares on the EV front to other EU countries with a similar population (France, Italy, Germany, Spain?) or GDP per capita (Norway USD 89k, UK 46k, France 43k, Germany 51k)



This the point that some are struggling to grasp. I am sure people are aware of EV and its pluses but price and affordability are issues in comparison to ICE. So pointless to say that Norway is big on it and my family has 3 EV cars and we have been using it for the last 7 years.


----------



## Alex321 (Yesterday at 09:01)

Arrowfoot said:


> This the point that some are struggling to grasp. I am sure people are aware of EV and its pluses but price and affordability are issues in comparison to ICE. So pointless to say that Norway is big on it and my family has 3 EV cars and we have been using it for the last 7 years.



They are currently issues, but won't be for long. New prices for EVs are getting much closer to the equivalent ICE cars, and second hand prices are bound to folow suit in a few years.


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 09:06)

Alex321 said:


> They are currently issues, but won't be for long. New prices for EVs are getting much closer to the equivalent ICE cars, and second hand prices are bound to folow suit in a few years.



So there’ll be good EV cars like an e-golf for £5k and less in 5 years without astronomical mileages and fully functioning batteries etc? I’ll look forward to it


----------



## icowden (Yesterday at 09:27)

vickster said:


> So there’ll be good EV cars like an e-golf for £5k and less in 5 years without astronomical mileages and fully functioning batteries etc? I’ll look forward to it


I'm not sure you can find a normal Golf for 5k with low mileages unless you get one that's 20 years old.


----------



## icowden (Yesterday at 09:33)

vickster said:


> Could you have afforded your EV if wasn't a company car? I.e. been in a situation comparable to much of the population who don't have access to essentially subsidised EVs?
> Norway might have lots of EVs which are cheaper...however there are only around 5m Norwegians and much of their immense wealth to be able to provide cheaper EVs and infrastructure comes from oil to the tune of approx $540bn in 2022 (ironic?)...


Nope. I would have had to get a different EV. I'd probably have been looking at a Nissan Leaf Accenta on PCP.

And yes, I know that the Norwegian subsidy on EVs is due to oil sales. But the USA have decent subsidies also. Until very recently there was a $7.5k federal grant. On top of that California offer up to $7,000 rebate. There can also be city or county incentives, home air district funding and incentives from local energy companies.

Our illustrious government managed a grant that was available for almost no cars, and £350 of home charger installation (now removed).


----------



## Alex321 (Yesterday at 09:39)

vickster said:


> So there’ll be good EV cars like an e-golf for £5k and less in 5 years without astronomical mileages and fully functioning batteries etc? I’ll look forward to it



Why would that happen?
If you are looking at an ICE golf no more than 10 years old and no more than 60K miles, you are looking at £10K plus.

I would expect similar EV to be not much more (if any) when there are a reasonable number around of similar age & mileage.


----------



## FishFright (Yesterday at 10:19)

Alex321 said:


> So do I presume from that you don't have an answer, or just that you are too rude to provide one?
> 
> Because that most certainly isn't remotely close to answering my question.



original response removed due to me being a bit of an idiot... again.


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 10:25)

Alex321 said:


> Why would that happen?
> If you are looking at an ICE golf no more than 10 years old and no more than 60K miles, you are looking at £10K plus.
> 
> I would expect similar EV to be not much more (if any) when there are a reasonable number around of similar age & mileage.



Blimmin heck…well I’ll be waiting a while longer. Even the Golf doesn’t appeal much esp the dull as dishwater colours.
There’s no current EV that mirrors my Skoda Fabia estate anyhow. It’s done 35k miles, is 10 years old, full history, very good condition. Basic but I’m not interested in sound systems, big touch screens, software, mapping, heated seats etc.


----------



## Alex321 (Yesterday at 10:53)

FishFright said:


> The answer to your question was a couple of posts above . But if you can't be bothered to read who am I to run after you with a nappy ?



The answer to my question was nowhere.

You said, in response to a post of mine "That isn't (how) pollution works".

I asked what you meant by "that". It isn't possible to look at another post to work out what you meant by "that" in this case. I don't know what it was in my post that you were referring to, and looking at other posts is not going to make nay difference to that.


----------



## Alex321 (Yesterday at 10:55)

vickster said:


> Blimmin heck…well I’ll be waiting a while longer. Even the Golf doesn’t appeal much esp the dull as dishwater colours.
> There’s no current EV that mirrors my Skoda Fabia estate anyhow. It’s done 35k miles, is 10 years old, full history, very good condition. Basic but I’m not interested in sound systems, big touch screens, software, mapping, heated seats etc.



Yeah, I don't think you are going to get an EV without the touch screens & mapping stuff. Even many quite basic modern ICE cars such as my wife's Nissan Micra have those - like you she wasn't interested in having them, but wanted another Micra when she last replaced her car, and that is what they came with by 2015.


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 10:58)

Alex321 said:


> Yeah, I don't think you are going to get an EV without the touch screens & mapping stuff. Even many quite basic modern ICE cars such as my wife's Nissan Micra have those - like you she wasn't interested in having them, but wanted another Micra when she last replaced her car, and that is what they came with by 2015.



I want a simple to use, good looking (to me), safe, fun car…not a laptop on wheels. Those Tesla screens are awful as an example


----------



## FishFright (Yesterday at 11:03)

Alex321 said:


> The answer to my question was nowhere.
> 
> You said, in response to a post of mine "That isn't (how) pollution works".
> 
> I asked what you meant by "that". It isn't possible to look at another post to work out what you meant by "that" in this case. I don't know what it was in my post that you were referring to, and looking at other posts is not going to make nay difference to that.



Apologies , I was the one not reading properly.

Basically you can't work out which is the most polluting by simple percentages the poster had used. If you want accurate numbers the process would be a hell of a lot more involved than a bit of middle school maths.


----------



## Alex321 (Yesterday at 12:56)

FishFright said:


> Apologies , I was the one not reading properly.
> 
> Basically you can't work out which is the most polluting by simple percentages the poster had used. If you want accurate numbers the process would be a hell of a lot more involved than a bit of middle school maths.



Fair enough. Thanks.

And I agree with that. As I said in another post, you also have to take account of how many times the energy gets converted, and the efficiency of each conversion. And I won't pretend to have any idea what those numbers are, I just know they are needed to get any properly accurate comparison.


----------



## icowden (Yesterday at 14:02)

vickster said:


> I want a simple to use, good looking (to me), safe, fun car…not a laptop on wheels. Those Tesla screens are awful as an example


Have you used one? If not - how do you know?

Also the Tesla is a safe, fun car. How many other cars can you turn into santa's sleigh or James Bond's underwater car...? How many other cars can guard themselves, but drive to meet you? That's fun! As for safety, there was a story in the news last week where a guy drove off a cliff to try to kill his family. he was in a tesla, the family all survived with relatively minor injuries. They are pretty tough vehicles.

As we have said before, the issue at the moment for most people is price. Designs have changed so estate cars are getting pretty rare. In fact other than the Porsche Taycan which IMHO doesn't really count, you only have the MG5 (you can get one from 18k second hand).


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 14:10)

icowden said:


> Have you used one? If not - how do you know?
> 
> Also the Tesla is a safe, fun car. How many other cars can you turn into santa's sleigh or James Bond's underwater car...? How many other cars can guard themselves, but drive to meet you? That's fun! As for safety, there was a story in the news last week where a guy drove off a cliff to try to kill his family. he was in a tesla, the family all survived with relatively minor injuries. They are pretty tough vehicles.
> 
> ...



Because I see no need at all to have a big touchscreen in my car for any purpose. My phone is fine for sat nav, knobs and buttons are fine for adjusting heat, ac, etc. they are unnecessary and a potential distraction.
Frankly, I don’t need a marketing department to take me in with blokey gimmicks to buy a car, I need straightforward reliable transport in a colour that isn’t grey, black, white, dark blue, the colour is the only positive of the car above. I have legs, why on earth do I need a car to come to meet me?! What’s wrong with locks and alarms to protect a car?! 
YMMV

Teslas don’t meet my needs and are fugly in my view, especially the SUV with the stupid doors.

I also don’t want a car from a company underpinned by the Chinese regime… not to mention they are also all too big.


----------



## shep (Yesterday at 14:10)

Alex321 said:


> Why would that happen?
> If you are looking at an ICE golf no more than 10 years old and no more than 60K miles, you are looking at £10K plus.
> 
> I would expect similar EV to be not much more (if any) when there are a reasonable number around of similar age & mileage.



You're quite right but go for one a couple of years older with a few more miles on the clock and there's plenty around for 5K depending on which model you go for.

I suppose it all depends on what people want or are used to from a car as some I know wouldn't dream of having a car more than 3 or 4 yrs old and budget accordingly so when the next upgrade comes along it probably makes sense to go electric.

I doubt many buy them outright they either have them through work, a loan or that rental scenario whereas I wouldn't entertain spunking hundreds of pounds per month just to drive around in a new car.

If I had an option to blow 100k on any car going I still wouldn't have anything new I would have something like a late '80's 911 Porsche as that would hold an interest for me.

Lads at work pay between £300 and £500 per month to hire these modern cars which I just couldn't comprehend but there you go.


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 14:11)

vickster said:


> *I want a simple to use, good looking (to me), safe, fun car*…not a laptop on wheels. Those Tesla screens are awful as an example



if thats really what you want, why do you own a skodia fabia estate??


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 14:17)

jowwy said:


> if thats really what you want, why do you own a skodia fabia estate??



Huh?


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 14:22)

vickster said:


> Huh?



well, you said you want a simple to use, good looking, fun car to drive..... Also in another post, you stated you didnt want something too big

So i was confused based on what you have said. Why do you drive skoda fabia estate??


----------



## Dadam (Yesterday at 14:26)

Any car made in the last 10-15 years, regardless of power unit, is essentially a laptop on wheels. They all are basically computer controlled for engine management, braking, climate control, airbags, traction etc etc. 

I do agree about touch controls though, an increasing number of studies are being done that show they are demonstrably less safe than tactile buttons. There's less of an issue with screens as long as they're close to driver's eye line but they should be controlled by physical buttons and switches. For clarity I'm not talking about changing music tracks but stuff you have to do while driving. You wouldn't want to have to hit a touch area on a screen to adjust the speed (or sensitivity) of your wipers for instance. I'm glad my 2014 BMW has the iDrive wheel system and it's one reason I want to hang onto it for now.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/featu...r-touchscreens-do-they-help-or-hinder-drivers


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 14:36)

jowwy said:


> well, you said you want a simple to use, good looking, fun car to drive..... Also in another post, you stated you didnt want something too big
> 
> So i was confused based on what you have said. Why do you drive skoda fabia estate??


For all the reasons above. It’s not a big car, no longer than the Golf it replaced and narrower. Fits on my driveway, in any car parking space, has great visibility, very comfortable seats , and practical. 4 adults plus luggage, or two adults, two bikes in boot plus luggage. Doesn’t cost too much to insure, maintain, VED acceptable. Perfectly economical for the relatively few miles I do.

It’s DSG so simple to drive and comfortable for my knackered left knee, VRS spec so quick and fun, good looking to me (as stated, Ymmv)


----------



## All uphill (Yesterday at 14:39)

vickster said:


> For all the reasons above. It’s not a big car, no longer than the Golf it replaced and narrower. Fits on my driveway, in any car parking space, has great visibility, very comfortable seats , and practical. 4 adults plus luggage, or two adults, two bikes in boot plus luggage. Doesn’t cost too much to insure, maintain, VED acceptable. Perfectly economical for the relatively few miles I do.
> 
> It’s DSG so simple to drive and comfortable for my knackered left knee, VRS spec so quick and fun, good looking to me (as stated, Ymmv)



Ah @vickster that's such a sensible and grown up attitude towards a car.


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 14:44)

All uphill said:


> Ah @vickster that's such a sensible and grown up attitude towards a car.



Best of all it belongs to me and not some employer, lease or finance company


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 14:46)

vickster said:


> Best of all it belongs to me and not some *employer, lease or finance company*



Not everyones car's are owned by the groups stated above either.....my manager has an electric car, fully owned and bought by herself and a few other friends too, along with me and my own car.


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 15:03)

jowwy said:


> Not everyones car's are owned by the groups stated above either.....my manager has an electric car, fully owned and bought by herself and a few other friends too, along with me and my own car.



I don’t want to spend £20k or more on an electric car I have no need for especially as there is not one current model I would actually choose to own and I’ve said numerous times.

I have friends with fancy cars too, that’s their choice. Mine is not to. Happy for the money to sit in my savings finally earning some interest rather than having a costly depreciating asset sitting on my drive


----------



## BrumJim (Yesterday at 16:04)

vickster said:


> For all the reasons above. It’s not a big car, no longer than the Golf it replaced and narrower. Fits on my driveway, in any car parking space, has great visibility, very comfortable seats , and practical. 4 adults plus luggage, or two adults, two bikes in boot plus luggage. Doesn’t cost too much to insure, maintain, VED acceptable. Perfectly economical for the relatively few miles I do.
> 
> It’s DSG so simple to drive and comfortable for my knackered left knee, VRS spec so quick and fun, good looking to me (as stated, Ymmv)



You should get yourself a second hand Fiat Coupe. Sounds like just the car for you.


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 16:08)

BrumJim said:


> You should get yourself a second hand Fiat Coupe. Sounds like just the car for you.



 I've had 3 in the past...unfortunately I can't drive a manual car in the past...or get a bike in the back with the wheels on


----------



## MrGrumpy (Yesterday at 16:47)

This is funny couldn’t make it up for the company I work for . Senior managers and above have the option of a company car . The only choice now is an EV. It will cost you money to drive one now , as the mileage rate is practically nil . So my Dept Head whom travels all over the North region, at this time leaves his company car at home for the Mrs to drive to the shops etc . That’s as far as it goes ! For all his long journeys he either trains it or hires a normal car.


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 17:00)

MrGrumpy said:


> This is funny couldn’t make it up for the company I work for . Senior managers and above have the option of a company car . The only choice now is an EV. It will cost you money to drive one now , as the mileage rate is practically nil . So my Dept Head whom travels all over the North region, at this time leaves his company car at home for the Mrs to drive to the shops etc . That’s as far as it goes ! For all his long journeys he either trains it or hires a normal car.



I thought the mileage rate for electric company cars is 8p after dec 2022


----------



## MrGrumpy (Yesterday at 17:56)

jowwy said:


> I thought the mileage rate for electric company cars is 8p after dec 2022



Not for our company 4p !! And for normal cars it’s being halved as well . We occasionally use our own cars for work , can see that stopping !


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 18:19)

MrGrumpy said:


> Not for our company 4p !! And for normal cars it’s being halved as well . We occasionally use our own cars for work , can see that stopping !



It was 4p, but hmrc now advise 8p….id have a word with your company


----------



## Jameshow (Yesterday at 19:04)

jowwy said:


> well, you said you want a simple to use, good looking, fun car to drive..... Also in another post, you stated you didnt want something too big
> 
> So i was confused based on what you have said. Why do you drive skoda fabia estate??



Skoda is simple good looking, and fun. 

I have an 02 polo which is much the same, except the Skoda has a better boot.


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 19:06)

Jameshow said:


> Skoda is simple good looking, and fun.
> 
> I have an 02 polo which is much the same, except the Skoda has a better boot.



First time i have heard a skoda called good looking and fun…


----------



## vickster (Yesterday at 19:10)

jowwy said:


> First time i have heard a skoda called good looking and fun…



Maybe try one.
Mine is far more fun than many of the cars that preceded it…
Golf GTI
Mini Cooper Works
Focus ST170
Merc SLK

I did enjoy my Fiat Coupes and they are still head turners…but I can’t drive a manual now


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 19:28)

vickster said:


> Maybe try one.
> Mine is far more fun than many of the cars that preceded it…
> Golf GTI
> Mini Cooper Works
> ...



A skoda fabia doesnt float my boat sorry…


----------



## tyred (Yesterday at 19:55)

jowwy said:


> A skoda fabia doesnt float my boat sorry…



I have one and don't think much of it all. There always seems to be something wrong with it and it's just not nice to drive.


----------



## Alex321 (Yesterday at 20:33)

jowwy said:


> It was 4p, but hmrc now advise 8p….id have a word with your company



The comp0any can pay you whatever they choose.

The HMRC rate is just the most you can claim tax relief on.


----------



## jowwy (Yesterday at 20:35)

Alex321 said:


> The comp0any can pay you whatever they choose.
> 
> The HMRC rate is just the most you can claim tax relief on.



I know, but i said the advice is 8p…..our company pays higher


----------



## MrGrumpy (Yesterday at 20:40)

jowwy said:


> I know, but i said the advice is 8p…..our company pays



I would need to check HR but I think the normal mileage rate for non company car was 45p , think that’s going down to 20p a mile . Might be less !!


----------



## icowden (Yesterday at 20:46)

vickster said:


> Because I see no need at all to have a big touchscreen in my car for any purpose. My phone is fine for sat nav, knobs and buttons are fine for adjusting heat, ac, etc. they are unnecessary and a potential distraction.


Knobs and buttons are a potential distraction. You constantly have to move your hands off the wheel to use them. In most EVs you just ask the car. The Tesla is particularly good at being asked.



vickster said:


> Frankly, I don’t need a marketing department to take me in with blokey gimmicks to buy a car,


That's good. Tesla don't have one. Nor dealerships. 



vickster said:


> I need straightforward reliable transport in a colour that isn’t grey, black, white, dark blue, the colour is the only positive of the car above.


Almost all vehicles come in multiple colours, you just have to pay extra.



vickster said:


> What’s wrong with locks and alarms to protect a car?!


They are old fashioned and easy to break or pick.



vickster said:


> Teslas don’t meet my needs and are fugly in my view, especially the SUV with the stupid doors.


The beauty is on the inside. They have been designed to be electric cars. The looks are about aero and range.



vickster said:


> I also don’t want a car from a company underpinned by the Chinese regime…


That rules out all cars.

So essentially your dream is either to keep the car you have or walk? There is nothing wrong with the car you have and nothing wrong in buying older and older Skoda Fabias as they gradually become uneconomical, but the reality is that your next car made in 2022 is going to have a touch screen, lots of driver assists and probably a battery. Even if it is a Skoda Fabia Estate:


> The new SKODA Fabia Estate ensures that the driver and passengers are entertained throughout city or motorway journeys. Every Fabia trim comes with a* 6.5” touchscreen *in the centre of the dashboard which allows you to connect your smartphone (through Apple CarPlay and Android Auto) and access apps which are compatible. This allows you to access applications such as maps, music, address book and more!
> 
> Whether you’re travelling in the summer or winter months, the *Climate Control Air Conditioning* will ensure you’re driving in comfort with its cool and heat settings. It’s also fitted with a humidity sensor which reduces windscreen misting. Further to comfort, the front seats are height adjustable and there’s plenty of leg-room and space for the back seat passenger.


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## jowwy (Yesterday at 20:51)

MrGrumpy said:


> I would need to check HR but I think the normal mileage rate for non company car was 45p , think that’s going down to 20p a mile . Might be less !!



your company is dropping it to 20p or hmrc are??


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## Jameshow (Yesterday at 21:14)

tyred said:


> I have one and don't think much of it all. There always seems to be something wrong with it and it's just not nice to drive.



Funny that we have two VW not had problems. 
Sisters had a tourans and they have been trouble exhaust gases in cabin, springs breaking etc etc. 

My polo is idea town car quick to warm up, just nippy enough, handles ok, just needs a 6th gear tbh which I guess later models have.


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## MrGrumpy (Yesterday at 21:18)

C


jowwy said:


> your company is dropping it to 20p or hmrc are??



Company !!


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## Rusty Nails (Yesterday at 21:25)

What a surprise this thread has been.

It seems that people have different personal reasons for choosing which particular lump of metal they drive in and that not all choices are based just on logic.

The world is a strange place!


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## jowwy (Yesterday at 21:30)

MrGrumpy said:


> C
> 
> 
> Company !!



I honestly think there would be a riot at our place if they tried to do that lol


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## icowden (Yesterday at 23:07)

Chislenko said:


> Tesla have a dealership in our city
> https://www.tesla.com/findus/location/store/chester



That's not a dealership, it's a store. You can't buy a car there.


> Instead of selling you a car, Tesla Stores simply exist to give customers a place to see sample vehicles and get more information. This format entirely removes the stereotypical sales-pitch that often comes with a car dealership; the people working in the Tesla stores are not trying to sell you a vehicle. They’re there to educate you. And that’s a completely different mindset.
> 
> Having a place to educate consumers about Tesla vehicles is useful, especially in an ever-changing auto industry. With hybrid and electric vehicles moving toward the forefront, more and more people are seeking information on how they work and the benefits to driving one. These stores are working to educate the public, even if they don’t pick out a Tesla for themselves.
> 
> I went into a Tesla store to see it for myself. The Product Specialist explained to me that their goal is not to sell you a vehicle. To paraphrase his words, “We know that most of the people who walk in that door don’t plan on buying a car,” he said. “Our goal is to inform people that these are the kinds of cars that are out there, and they are becoming cars that everyday drivers can afford.” The specialist, of course, was referencing the new, more affordable Tesla Model 3.


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## icowden (Yesterday at 23:52)

Chislenko said:


> But you can go for a test drive, and be fed all the speel. The only difference being once you have been "sold" the product you go online to order it rather than deal face to face.
> You can also get your car serviced there and buy parts and accessories.
> It is a dealership by another name.


No it isn't. You *cannot* buy a car. Staff are also told not to try to sell the cars. They will give you information, let you see the cars and take a test drive. But there is no sales incentive for staff. No discounts. No wheeler-dealing. It is not a dealership. You buy the car online, in your own time. No pressure or creepy sales tactics. No ignoring you if you obviously aren't buying, or shmoozing you if you look loaded.



> A *car dealership*, or *car dealer*, is a business that sells new or used cars, at the retail level, based on a dealership contract with an automaker or its sales subsidiary. Car dealerships also often sell spare parts and automotive maintenance services.



Tesla stores do not have dealership contracts as they are not dealerships. They are not independent of Tesla. They do not sell cars.


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## CXRAndy (Today at 18:05)

That's right, you order your Tesla from their website.


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