# One thing I don't understand



## simonjohnross (20 Aug 2015)

OK, I'm a new poster on here. I'm a car driver, motorcyclist and cyclist.
I've been on the road now for over 40 years on one form of transport or another and am VERY aware of the dangers we ALL face on the roads.
I must ask one question of the cycling community....
WHY for God's sake does nobody (apart from me it seems) have a rear view mirror on their bicycle?....
I was taught to drive in 1975 and the one thing that my instructor impressed upon me is the need to be absolutely aware of everything going on around me, to the side and to the rear as well as in front.
The thought of riding a bicycle on any road with a 30 ton lorry approaching from behind fills me with dread, not even being able to see it coming is surely insane!
Please don't post a reply about how the sound alerts you, we all see many cyclists riding with stereo's on their heads how would they hear?.... and the amount of cyclists looking over their shoulder is almost negligible.
I just cannot understand why no mirrors.
Simon

PS, I'm very aware as my first post this might be taken by some to be provocative and argumentative...it's not meant to be. If the post draws too many negative, nasty or inflammatory comments, I'll ask admin to pull it.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

What road danger reduction benefit do you believe a mirror confers on you when you're riding a bike? How does it make it less likely you will be involved in a collision?


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## CopperCyclist (20 Aug 2015)

If you want a simple and honest answer, I don't have one because my neck works, and because my rising position varies often enough (on drops, on bars, standing to pedal, sitting to pedal, sitting up straight, going aero) that mirror placement is going to be problematic. 

But the main reason is because I can turn my head to look really enough - and importantly, that very act of looking can often alert the driver behind me of a possible move, and alter their driving.


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## Drago (20 Aug 2015)

I've tried it, and they're so bad as to be useless. Better to not have them and rely on proper observation, than to have them and start to rely on something that vibrates and gives an extremely limited field of view.


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> ..
> WHY for God's sake does nobody (apart from me it seems) have a rear view mirror on their bicycle?....
> ...



sat in a driver's seat, it's not that easy to turn your head and shoulders and have a glance behind you, hence the need for rear view mirrors in motor vehicles. On a bicycle, it's easy to look behind without having to use a mirror. It's not rocking horse science.


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## DRHysted (20 Aug 2015)

Tried a mirror.
It didn't work & was more of problem.
Removed the mirror.

The way I see it is a motorist that hasn't seen me will not be effected by me seeing them.


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## ianrauk (20 Aug 2015)

I have a head which has eyes and ears. The head can move to see what is behind. The ears can hear what is behind.
I have no need for a mirror.


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## w00hoo_kent (20 Aug 2015)

Coming from motorbiking, I do lifesavers quite regularly (hell, I do lifesavers walking) but there are various mirror solutions out there and some people use them. When I was new to cycling I was very tempted by one of the ones that clipped on to the helmet (negating a lot of the issues with handlebar mounted mirrors) but I realised that they'd be a hindrance to looking forwards (the position would annoy me) and I don't really have a need because you have a lot of vision on a bicycle.

It's a valid question though. There is also 'it looks nerdy', 'it's more stuff on the bike' and 'they often don't do what they are supposed to'. But as I say, my big one is after riding for a bit they just don't fill a gap I feel I have.


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## TissoT (20 Aug 2015)

Simple answer for me is : I am to busy looking what obstacles I have in front of me
If a vehicle is going to hit you from behind I don t see how a mirror is going to change it
Being a track rider I turn my head around just like other cyclist do


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## LonesomeWanderer (20 Aug 2015)

Yep, it's much better to turn around and have a good look, on a bike there's no pillars or bodywork blocking the view. Not sure how I would act differently if I saw a 30 ton lorry in a mirror anyway, because holding your line is the best thing you can do....


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

CopperCyclist said:


> ... that very act of looking can often alert the driver behind me of a possible move, and alter their driving.



That's one thing that i find slightly annoying but also refreshing... I shoulder check regularly, but occasionally an approaching driver will read my shoulder check as a right turn signal and hang back.


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## LonesomeWanderer (20 Aug 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Coming from motorbiking, I do lifesavers quite regularly (hell, *I do lifesavers walking*) ....


I'm glad I'm not the only one, when walking with someone they always ask why I keep looking over my shoulder.


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## simonjohnross (20 Aug 2015)

Guys, guys........Please don't talk rubbish....I have a mirror on my bicycle, I use it ALL the time, it's NOT useless, I can see behind me perfectly well.
Origamist.....Surely knowing what's behind you MUST help? A car approaching at speed too close to you.......A tipper lorry swerving....any number of things. Surely ANYTHING that keeps you safer has GOT to be a good thing?
DRYysted......Mirror creating problems? pray tell how?
Drago....Vibrates?...we talking about a motorcycle here?????


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## helston90 (20 Aug 2015)

Rule #66 // No mirrors. Mirrors are allowed on your (aptly named) Surly Big Dummy or your Surly Long Haul Trucker. Not on your road steed. Not on your Mountain bike. Not on your helmet. If someone familiar with The Rules has sold you such an abomination, return the mirror and demand a refund, plus interest and damages

Read more on Velominati: http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/


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## summerdays (20 Aug 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> That's one thing that i find slightly annoying but also refreshing... I shoulder check regularly, but occasionally an approaching driver will read my shoulder check as a right turn signal and hang back.


I find the same, I'll be anticipating I'm going to do a right turn and wanting to gauge when I'm going to do it, but the driver behind assumes I'm going to do it immediately, so if they are hanging back I'll move out earlier than I perhaps intended.

Looking behind allows you a much wider view. I've contemplated a mirror but decided it would probably reduce the number of looks behind I would do.


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## Spinney (20 Aug 2015)

I do have a mirror, but it does not replace the shoulder check.

I find it difficult to turn my head around far enough so that I can see _through_ my glasses at the road behind rather than partly between the gap between my glasses and my face, so don't like doing shoulder checks all the time. Also, esp. when I first started riding, if I did a shoulder check and there _was_ a vehicle there that I had not heard/was not expecting, it could induce a bit of a wobble.

So I use a mirror to keep a general eye on what is behind me while bimbling along, and to check if the road is clear before pulling out/turning right - but the latter is _always_ followed up by a shoulder check before making the manoeuvre.

I think what would really draw flak on here is a suggestion that using a mirror can _replace_ the shoulder check (and you did not say this )

(PS about four messages appeared before this one while I was typing!!)


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## deptfordmarmoset (20 Aug 2015)

Eye contact is also very useful for gaining attention from a vehicle behind when there's some kind of communication to come, e.g. signalling, a lane change. (I rarely wear glasses for this reason.)


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## simonjohnross (20 Aug 2015)

Spinney said:


> I do have a mirror, but it does not replace the shoulder check.
> 
> I find it difficult to turn my head around far enough so that I can see _through_ my glasses at the road behind rather than partly between the gap between my glasses and my face, so don't like doing shoulder checks all the time. Also, esp. when I first started riding, if I did a shoulder check and there _was_ a vehicle there that I had not heard/was not expecting, it could induce a bit of a wobble.
> 
> ...



Absolutely NOT! for those that do indeed check over their shoulder, there's nothing better. I'm NOT suggesting it replaces a proper look over the shoulder, of course not, But just to have a general view of whats going on behind you. Surely it must be safer to take a quick glance in a mirror AS WELL AS looking over your shoulder?


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## simonjohnross (20 Aug 2015)

A week ago I had a cyclist swerve out in front of me around a massive manhole. He didn't know I was there, he was riding slowly in a 40mph limit and I was giving him plenty of space. The fact is he swerved so violently and so very far out (it was almost comical the distance he veered away from the manhole), very nearly caused me to hit an oncoming car. I'm pretty sure if he'd known I was there he would have swerved but probably nowhere near as much. JMHO.

Simon


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> Guys, guys........Please don't talk rubbish....I have a mirror on my bicycle, I use it ALL the time, it's NOT useless, I can see behind me perfectly well.
> *Origamist.....Surely knowing what's behind you MUST help? A car approaching at speed too close to you.......A tipper lorry swerving....any number of things. Surely ANYTHING that keeps you safer has GOT to be a good thing?*
> DRYysted......Mirror creating problems? pray tell how?
> Drago....Vibrates?...we talking about a motorcycle here?????



Well, that's persuaded me. I'm going to get a glasses mirror, bar end mirror, and headtube mirror as that will make me even SAFER - SUPER SAFE!


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## PhilDawson8270 (20 Aug 2015)

Mirrors are useful for checking nothing is coming up behind you when you pull out to overtake something at 30+ mph.

On a bicycle, you don't often pull out to overtake stuff, and you're often not going so fast you can't have a look around first.


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## Globalti (20 Aug 2015)

I actually failed my motorcycle test first time around because I only used my mirrors. You are supposed to ride along with your head swivelling behind every now and again to check traffic but most don't because they trust the mirrors.

Same for cyclists really.


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## simonjohnross (20 Aug 2015)

"Well, that's persuaded me. I'm going to get a glasses mirror, bar end mirror, and headtube mirror as that will make me even SAFER - SUPER SAFE!"

Brilliant, let's take the pi55 out of someone who's concerned about safety! I'm sure the cycling community need someone like you like a hole in the head. I tried to start a constructive discussion asking a genuine question, and it seems to have got your back up. Obviously as you know it all, you will no longer need to contribute to this discussion.

Simon

ps, I have a friend who I ride with, when we see someone acting like a jerk (red lights, inside lorries etc) his first comment is "He'll be dead by Christmas..."


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## Dogtrousers (20 Aug 2015)

I used to have one that attached to the top of the brake lever, where the cable entered. It was, IIRC, excellent. Unfortunately most brake levers have under-tape routing now so that design doesn't work. I've tried a few mirrors but none have been very satisfactory as they all tend to shake loose when riding over rough road surfaces (ie nearly all the time) and end up pointing in weird directions so when you really want to see behind, all you see is your knees, or the sky, so you have to shoulder check anyway. If I discover a really good one, I'll use it.

Edit: 


helston90 said:


> Rule #66 // No mirrors. Mirrors are allowed on your (aptly named) Surly Big Dummy or your Surly Long Haul Trucker. Not on your road steed. Not on your Mountain bike. Not on your helmet. If someone familiar with The Rules has sold you such an abomination, return the mirror and demand a refund, plus interest and damages
> 
> Read more on Velominati: http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/



If the velonobbers say I shouldn't have one, I definitely want one.


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> ...
> Brilliant, let's take the pi55 out of someone who's concerned about safety!
> ...



Whilst your concerns may be genuine... you seem to have dismissed those who don't agree that a rear view mirror is essential on a bicycle. I don't need one. I shoulder check regularly. The view i get using my eyes is bigger than that given by a small convex mirror. Therefore, an RV mirror on a bike is useless in my opinion. That doesn't alter that fact that you prefer a mirror. Good for you. If it works it works... but maybe not for everyone. Happy cycling.


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## Yellow Saddle (20 Aug 2015)

I'm Italian. Therefore nothing that's behind me in the traffic matters. Mirrors are for plucking nose hair.


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## Sharky (20 Aug 2015)

Following a collarbone break, I had difficulty looking over my shoulder and I used a mirror for a while and it did help a little, but never fully trusted it and often had to stop on the left, and turn whole body to check that it was clear behind, before making a right turn. When fully recovered and had the ability to look backwards again, was not needed.


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## Boo (20 Aug 2015)

Simon,

You posted an entirely valid discussion point. Many posters here hold a different view from you. Some of them may have have been slightly sarcastic in putting their point across, many of them weren't.
What I would say is that I suspect that most of them have many, _many _years experience of riding bicycles, and that if adding a mirror was going to make a fundamental difference to their riding safety, they would have done it by now. That fact that the vast majority of cyclists _don't _use a mirror, to me, speaks volumes.
If it works for you though - great! But don't get annoyed with people for disagreeing with you!

Ride safe!


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## simonjohnross (20 Aug 2015)

It seems that common sense is sadly lacking in the cycling community.
Origamist, you're calling me a Troll? Pot....Kettle...Black?
Ok I'm done with this, it's obvious I'm not wanted here, I will depart and leave you to the likes of Origamist...God help you all.
Ride safe everyone (mirrors or not)

Simon


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## martint235 (20 Aug 2015)

Well that was a fun thread to read.

Just my twopenneth. I have a mirror on both my road bikes. I commute on busy London roads where it's far more important that I see what's going on in front of me (I'm thinking South Circular here where lane changing is done at a seconds notice with no indication). Mirrors will not replace a shoulder check but they are a useful *indication* of what is going on behind you.


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## Milkfloat (20 Aug 2015)

@simonjohnross The first post stated you did not want to provocative or argumentative, in your second you accused everyone of talking rubbish. 3rd and 4th fine (although you did open yourself up accusations of not following the highway code). 5th post of the rant really starting and 6th is the strop followed by threats of violence. It is not going too well. I am usually the first to moan about the old timers giving people grief, but in this case I see people having a normal discussion being attacked by someone who does not like other people opinion. You are going to fit in well in the 'Society, Culture and Politics' part of the forum if you stick around.

For what it is worth, I don't use a mirror, I turn my head - usually a couple of times at least when planning a turn.


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## Levo-Lon (20 Aug 2015)

I too have spent my life on motorcycles..and pushbikes.

Mirrors on a MC are to make life easier...you still need to look mind..
i still look over my shoulder when changing lane on duel carriageways in the car and van..i cant help it as i know the roads are full of mindless fookers.so a look avoids the mirror blid spots too..

on a pusbike its all about awareness..a mirror wont prevent te car hitting you and neither will seeing it in a mirror.

If your a guy that whants a mirror on your bike then im happy for you..enjoy


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## Ajay (20 Aug 2015)

A bit extreme perhaps


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## Spinney (20 Aug 2015)

*Mod note*: this isn't the cafe, chaps - (some of the posts in) this thread could be useful for newbies wondering about mirrors - please keep on topic from now on.
Ta!


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## G3CWI (20 Aug 2015)

When I got back into cycling I got a Bike-eye mirror for the road bike. Initially I was quite enthusiastic about it. However after a while, my bike handing skills improved I found turning my head to look was better and more effective. Indeed looking at the bike-eye often felt less safe. A few months back while cleaning the bike I took off the Bike-eye. It never went back and I have never missed it.

It does rather appear that the OP was driving too close to a cyclist and felt that giving the cyclist a mirror would have made his own driving less dangerous.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...plains-how-to-safely-overtake-cyclists-186697


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## shouldbeinbed (20 Aug 2015)

@simonjohnross save your angst, the venom and righteous indignation against the idea from a chunk of the non mirror brigade is utterly baffling.

I'm a huge advocate for mirrors and have regularly posted, advised, suggested on them on here, as do various others.

You aren't alone, just in a small gang who appreciate the benefits either for medical need or having tried them in a spirit of open mindedness & 'what's the worst that can happen' experimentalism and realised they aren't in the same league of wrong as drinking blood or setting fire to kittens.

I've found by trial and error the ones that work best for me on different bar types and tbose which I would never trust.
Unfortunately for the cause of mirrors on bikes being more widely accepted: many of the poorest ones are also the most in your face in shops and people will try some cruddy thing with a weak joint or on a flappy arm from which you can't get a stable image, or the bike-eye frame type and realise the inherent flaws in something that your legs and panniers obstruct, leading them to decide all mirrors are c**p and are happy to claim so, along with those genuises that don't even need to try them to just know they can't possibly offer a functional benefit.

I also find it incomprehensible that so many can't seem to make the logical leap that you can have a mirror AND still use a shoulder check to give a visual clue to those around you, Even if you didn't turn the head(*) it is not like you don't give off other usual clues such as road position & poking out that big long indicator you have dangling off your shoulder to give them a bit of a hint too.

(*) and how come this small act is seemingly the thing that people expect SMIDSY and co to see.


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## theclaud (20 Aug 2015)

Mirrors are useful for recumbents, and people with limited neck and shoulder movement. Otherwise I regard them as a waste of time and yet another unnecessary piece of clutter.


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## theclaud (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> @simonjohnross save your angst, the venom and righteous indignation against the idea from a chunk of the non mirror brigade is utterly baffling..



There was no venom and indignation, just the dismissiveness of those who are being presented for the 100th time as if it were the first an idea that they've considered or explored already and found wanting. The strop is entirely one-sided.


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## Ganymede (20 Aug 2015)

I have a mirror on my recumbent - very useful although I _can_ turn my head, and do so to alert driver to the fact that I know they are there - they can't always see that I have a mirror. I've never felt the need on my hybrid.

Interestingly I saw a chap rowing solo sculls on the Thames at the weekend - he had a rear-view mirror attached to his cap. Other scullers were going without. I didn't get a chance to ask him about it. But the position in a small boat is much more restricted than on a bike, and I guess if the mirror is on your cap it moves with you instead of you having to be in the right riding position to see. But I think I'd find it distracting on the road - the river is not so busy nor so complex and varied an environment.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> @simonjohnross save your angst, the venom and righteous indignation against the idea from a chunk of the non mirror brigade is utterly baffling.
> 
> I'm a huge advocate for mirrors and have regularly posted, advised, suggested on them on here, as do various others.
> 
> ...



Unlike the OP you are not questioning other people's sanity for choosing to ride without a mirror or invoking God to make your post more tub-thumpingly fervent.

If newbies are wondering about mirrors (and they don't know how to use the search facility) they should ask themselves in what circumstances a mirror might help to reduce the danger they face. This is a perfectly reasonable question, but surely the onus is on those that advocate the use of a mirror to make the case?


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## shouldbeinbed (20 Aug 2015)

theclaud said:


> There was no venom and indignation, just the dismissiveness of those who are being presented for the 100th time as if it were the first an idea that they've considered or explored already and found wanting. The strop is entirely one-sided.


Yeah I see how origamist has been the model of decorum in this one sided strop. 

And from page 1 onwards plenty of equally dogmatic, 'no they're useless' presented just as factually as the OPs line. 

Hey ho.


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## Lurpak (20 Aug 2015)

Don't mirrors flip stuff from left to right? Imagine what other lies they're telling us.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> Yeah I see how origamist has been the model of decorum in this one sided strop.
> 
> And from page 1 onwards plenty of equally dogmatic, 'no they're useless' presented just as factually as the OPs line.
> 
> Hey ho.



I don't think they are useless and I'm not dogmatically against the use of mirrors as an aid to observation. However, where possible, I prefer a rational, evidence based approach to testing the validity of claims made for the safety benefits of any cycling accessory. In this case, that is difficult as anecdata rules the day where mirrors are concerned, but I certainly expect a little more than appeals to "common sense" and the OP's confused and het-up ramblings.


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## Milkfloat (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> And from page 1 onwards plenty of equally dogmatic, 'no they're useless' presented just as factually as the OPs line.



By far the majority of people stated that they have tried a mirror and then explained why it did not work for them. For me the reasons against are were summed up in the 3rd post


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## G3CWI (20 Aug 2015)

Lurpak said:


> Don't mirrors flip stuff from left to right? Imagine what other lies they're telling us.



The weird thing is how they don't flip things from top to bottom...


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> ... those geniuses that don't even need to try them [a mirror] ...




I'm not a genius by a long chalk... but I know that i am perfectly able to see what's behind me without using a mirror. If i had a problem, I'd find a solution. but i don't


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## martint235 (20 Aug 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> By far the majority of people stated that they have tried a mirror and then explained why it did not work for them. For me the reasons against are were summed up in the 3rd post


Each to their own really. I don't change position that often and only between hoods and tops when I do. Even the time it takes me to check the mirror can result in nervous moments as cars on my route really do change lane without notice and the mirror lets me see for example if I'm holding up a motorbike for no good reason.


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## Red17 (20 Aug 2015)

Pretty sure when I was a kid (many many years ago - Ok 70's) mirrors were more common on kids bikes - I remember seeing a few with loads of mirrors copying the mod scooters.

Just found a pic of what I remember





Newer used one on a bike myself though


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## GilesM (20 Aug 2015)

User3094 said:


> Mirrors are clearly an affront to style, but then people wear sandals. C'est la vie.



Even sandals with socks don't get anywhere close to the sort of mirror on a bike fashion crime, in all, a very worrying thread, the simple fact is, bikes should not have mirrors unless they have motors aswell.


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## martint235 (20 Aug 2015)

GilesM said:


> Even sandals with socks don't get anywhere close to the sort of mirror on a bike fashion crime, in all, a very worrying thread, the simple fact is, bikes should not have mirrors unless they have motors aswell.


Yebbut I bet you're one of those weirdos that says I can't mix and match groupsets on a bike


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## Ihatehills (20 Aug 2015)

I'm an advocate for mirrors, I have a bar end fitting type and think that for me its fairly essential, if I didn't have it I would constantly be checking over my shoulder on busy roads, I'm fully aware that its more to do with confidence than necessity though. plus it does get in the way at times.


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## theclaud (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> *Yeah I see how origamist has been the model of decorum in this one sided strop. *
> 
> And from page 1 onwards plenty of equally dogmatic, 'no they're useless' presented just as factually as the OPs line.
> 
> Hey ho.



A brusque and to-the-point question in response to an adversarial, vehement and over-emotional OP. Seems entirely reasonably to me. Then Origamist (who is, I should point out for Simon's benefit, not only an asset to 'the cycling community' and a tireless advocate for cyclists' safety, but a cyclist of incomparable grace, swiftness and panache) gets loads of wholly uwarranted abuse. This is usually a sign that the OP was wound up like a top before he started, and just waiting for a cue to go off on one.


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## GilesM (20 Aug 2015)

martint235 said:


> Yebbut I bet you're one of those weirdos that says I can't mix and match groupsets on a bike



I don't see that as a serious crime, as long as the bike looks right.


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## cd365 (20 Aug 2015)

G3CWI said:


> It does rather appear that the OP was driving too close to a cyclist and felt that giving the cyclist a mirror would have made his own driving less dangerous.
> 
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...plains-how-to-safely-overtake-cyclists-186697


That seemed like the case to me as well.

I don't ride with a mirror because I feel like I don't need one, I have a perfectly functioning neck that I can use to see what is behind me!


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## DRHysted (20 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> DRYysted......Mirror creating problems? pray tell how?


I presume you meant me here?

Bar end one, vibrates terribly, needs adjusting with every change in position (tops, hoods, drops, hanging over the bars). 
Frame mount, vibrates terribly, needs adjusting with every change in position (tops, hoods, drops, hanging over the bars), hits my legs when stood on the pedals.
Bar top mounted, vibrates terribly, needs adjusting with every change in position (tops, hoods, drops, hanging over the bars). 

In the end it's quicker, easier, and more reliable to look behind me the old fashioned way by turning my head. I do over 4000 miles a year, mostly commuting, so must be doing something right.


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## G3CWI (20 Aug 2015)

I have noticed that a lot of motorists don't seem to use their mirrors much.


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

G3CWI said:


> I have noticed that a lot of motorists don't seem to use their mirrors much.


ah but they have them... i think that might have been the OPs point... and i'm wondering if the OP really does ride a bike.


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## TheDoctor (20 Aug 2015)

I'm rather hoping he doesn't!


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## theclaud (20 Aug 2015)

TheDoctor said:


> I'm rather hoping he doesn't!


Oh I don't know - I'd rather he was on a bike than behind the wheel of a car.


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## Dayvo (20 Aug 2015)

Can't see the point of having a rear-view mirror: it's not as though you're cycling backwards!

As long as the vehicle behind you can see you, then potentially you're safe. My neck, eyes, ears and common sense have looked after me so far. And having a mirror doesn't make immune to accidents or injuries, in fact, it may even give people a false belief in how safe they are. 

I tried a mirror once (about the size of £2 coin: it lasted about two minutes) before I realised that it was shite.


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## Hip Priest (20 Aug 2015)

I find a Mirror can be useful for shoving down the front of your jersey before descending the alpe at speed.


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## shouldbeinbed (20 Aug 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> By far the majority of people stated that they have tried a mirror and then explained why it did not work for them. For me the reasons against are were summed up in the 3rd post



* A * mirror.

Do we all just test ride A[\b] bike when it comes to purchase time?

I covered this in my original entry to the thread & ad naueum previously. There's a wide variety of mirrors available, many total cr@p, some very good and it is a process of trial & error & elimiation to find the types that do work and don't conform to the prejudice that a bad one can seemingly instil so readily and so deeply.

Unfortunately the bad ones (again read my original post here for the common failings) are the ones most commonly seen for sale and are usually cheap ones. The shops will no doubt shift enough of them to merit re-order without the seller making follow up enquiries to the purchasers how they got on with them. And its often said on here buy chdap buy twice - people don't invest in quality and then assume everything is c**p.

I tried a mirror and didn't like it is hardly a representative statement of the efficacy of all mirrors any more than I got drunk once is a licence to spout teetotalism in the beer thread OR to claim all bikes are rubbish because the one you bought in Asda was.


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## shouldbeinbed (20 Aug 2015)

User said:


> On the assumption that this is sarcastically intended, go back and read @Origamist's first post here. It was a perfectly reasonable invitation to consider what benefits the OP was advocating.


I read them all including the one accusing OP of trolling and the youtube tantrum clip.

The OP IMO did cover what benefits they perceive from mirrors in no less detail than many of the 'tried it didn't like it' & 'I've got a working neck' posts yet none of them were challenged to provide an enhanced burden of proof of opinion, and a degeneration of content (on both sides) from there.


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> * A * mirror.
> 
> Do we all just test ride A[\b] bike when it comes to purchase time?
> 
> ...


The point you seem so keen to miss is.... someone tried 'a' mirror, and decided that it had no real advantage over turning their head to see behind (which is very effective). How many different types of mirrors do you suggest we try before coming to the same conclusion?


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## swee'pea99 (20 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> Please don't post a reply about how the sound alerts you, we all see many cyclists riding with stereo's on their heads how would they hear?


The sound alerts me. I don't wear a stereo, and never would. Mainly because it would prevent the sound from alerting me.


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## Drago (20 Aug 2015)

You could chop your ears off and pour concrete in for the difference they make in heavy urban traffic.


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## w00hoo_kent (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> * A * mirror.
> 
> Do we all just test ride A[\b] bike when it comes to purchase time?
> 
> ...



Stupid question I know, but presuming everyone can refrain from jumping in with 'tried that one and hated it' posts (I know, some hope) having tried a number of mirrors, which one/s did you decide were worth the money?


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## GilesM (20 Aug 2015)

User said:


> The OP was the OP's very first contribution on CC. *I see it as on a par with going into a crowded pub full of locals, getting up on a chair and telling them that they are all wrong about something*.



Although you need big balls to do that, this is the internet, ideal for the not so brave.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> I read them all including the one accusing OP of trolling and the youtube tantrum clip.
> 
> The OP IMO did cover what benefits they perceive from mirrors in no less detail than many of the 'tried it didn't like it' & 'I've got a working neck' posts yet none of them were challenged to provide an enhanced burden of proof of opinion, and a degeneration of content (on both sides) from there.



The thread was on a downward trajectory as a consequence of the OP's opening remarks and tone - which were ill-considered. Who attempts to win people over to their side of an argument by questioning the sanity of others. The OP then managed one line to justify his position - which was weak. If he wants to convince others of the safety benefits of mirrors, that's his prerogative, but he should expect to be challenged if all he can muster are appeals to common sense.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Stupid question I know, but presuming everyone can refrain from jumping in with 'tried that one and hated it' posts (I know, some hope) having tried a number of mirrors, which one/s did you decide were worth the money?



I found the "Take a Look" mirror the best. It fixes to glasses.


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## shouldbeinbed (20 Aug 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> The point you seem so keen to miss is.... someone tried 'a' mirror, and decided that it had no real advantage over turning their head to see behind (which is very effective). How many different types of mirrors do you suggest we try* before coming to the same conclusion?[\b] *



good to see such an open minded approach to variety[\b]


I'm missing no point, if people are fine tuning heads then lovely - I do even with a mirror on my bikes. Like helmets, hi-viz et al, I'm pro do what works for you, but the point I find hard to fathom is why people can be so dismissive and dogmatic on a sample of one or less, it is hardly fair or representative.

I come back to the Asda bike analogy, if someone said they hate cycling because of such a machine, are we all going to agree wirh them and give up? or maybe we'd suggest that a single bad example doesn't tar the whole gamut of bikes as rubbish and they should give other ones a go & they'll eventually find a type & the quality that works for them. It may be the next one they try, it may take them a dozen goes and trying several of each on on drop bars fast flat bars, CXs, hybrids, MTBs.......

I could recommend you the mirrors I find effective if you like. We could turn this thread into something positive but I suspect not.

I shall bid the thread adieu and hide it in the ignore box.


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## swansonj (20 Aug 2015)

I am about to do that thing that always gets me really worried - disagree with @theclaud ...

I use a mirror on all three bikes (tandem, solo, Brompton) and it's the same one, a Mirrycle. I agree that cheaper mirrors I tried before hitting on Mirrycles vibrated too much to be very useful. 90% of my cycling is in one posture and I agree the usefulness would diminish if you swap positions.

I use it
(A) for general awareness of what's behind me. Just cycling along a road, where you probably wouldn't feel the need to look over your shoulder every twenty yards, it's helpful to be aware if a cyclist is drawing near, or if an approaching car seems to be a bit closer than you'd like. It may not make a great deal of difference, but it may affect whether I swerve to avoid a pothole or ride over it, for instance, or save me wobbling because taken by surprise by a close pass. I don't like surprises when cycling.
(B) when changing lane/turning right. You can cycle along the near side, being constantly overtaken by a stream of cars, and be monitoring the traffic flow for a gap, ready, when you see a gap approaching, to shoulder-check and pull smoothly out into it, something not so easy IME to do by shoulder checking.

I do not claim either of those as necessary for safe cycling.


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## Ihatehills (20 Aug 2015)

My bar end mirror is made by mirrcycle ( an atrocious name I accept) but it really does work, the field of vision is great and it doesn't vibrate loose like some reports suggest that the cheaper ones do.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Generic-Mirrycle-Bike-Mirror/dp/B00JQN3J50

I accept that that not everyone, needs , likes, wants or gives a fart about mirrors but some people are denying the fact that they can be useful. Yes they have limitations but when can having an extra awareness about what is behind you possibly be a bad thing.


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## Ihatehills (20 Aug 2015)

Oops @swansonj posted while I was correcting my typos :-)


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## Bianchi boy (20 Aug 2015)

Boo said:


> Simon,
> 
> You posted an entirely valid discussion point. Many posters here hold a different view from you. Some of them may have have been slightly sarcastic in putting their point across, many of them weren't.
> What I would say is that I suspect that most of them have many, _many _years experience of riding bicycles, and that if adding a mirror was going to make a fundamental difference to their riding safety, they would have done it by now. That fact that the vast majority of cyclists _don't _use a mirror, to me, speaks volumes.
> ...


Well said


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## summerdays (20 Aug 2015)

Ihatehills said:


> Oops @swansonj posted while I was correcting my typos :-)


But as you both recommend the same product it's worth knowing


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## Shortmember (20 Aug 2015)

I have a lightweight Cateye mirror with a bar end fitting and it's like having eyes in the back of my head. It does useful things like forewarning me if a car is sliding up too close when overtaking, so I can take evasive action, and it stops me having to swivel my head round like a ventriloquist's dummy every time I need to quickly avoid a suicidal pedestrian or swerve around an opening car door etc.
As far as I'm concerned a good quality mirror is essential kit on a bike.


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## mustang1 (20 Aug 2015)

CopperCyclist said:


> If you want a simple and honest answer, I don't have one because my neck works, and because my rising position varies often enough (on drops, on bars, standing to pedal, sitting to pedal, sitting up straight, going aero) that mirror placement is going to be problematic.
> 
> But the main reason is because I can turn my head to look really enough - and importantly, that very act of looking can often alert the driver behind me of a possible move, and alter their driving.


Blxxdy heck, this answer is just perfect.


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## oldfatfool (20 Aug 2015)

I had one on the trike and tbh it was more dangerous trying to adjust it and tighten it every few minutes than it was to do without, problem mostly caused by our crap roads but still a problem


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## MontyVeda (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> good to see such an open minded approach to variety[\b]
> 
> 
> I'm missing no point, if people are fine tuning heads then lovely - I do even with a mirror on my bikes. Like helmets, hi-viz et al, I'm pro do what works for you, but the point I find hard to fathom is why people can be so dismissive and dogmatic on a sample of one or less, it is hardly fair or representative.
> ...



This thread was asking why 'many' cyclists don't use mirrors. Several of us replied with our reasons for not using a mirror, as that was what the OP wanted, then he got stroppy and flounced. You may not feel that it's fair, but he did ask.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

shouldbeinbed said:


> *
> I shall bid the thread adieu and hide it in the ignore box.*



That's unfortunate as your contributions will be missed.


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## winjim (20 Aug 2015)

CopperCyclist said:


> But the main reason is because I can turn my head to look really enough - and importantly, that very act of looking can often alert the driver behind me of a possible move, and alter their driving.


I think a bit of eye contact also helps to identify you as a human being, and not just an obstruction.


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## Origamist (20 Aug 2015)

Ihatehills said:


> My bar end mirror is made by mirrcycle ( an atrocious name I accept) but it really does work, the field of vision is great and it doesn't vibrate loose like some reports suggest that the cheaper ones do.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Generic-Mirrycle-Bike-Mirror/dp/B00JQN3J50
> 
> I accept that that not everyone, needs , likes, wants or gives a fart about mirrors but some people are denying the fact that they can be useful. *Yes they have limitations but when can having an extra awareness about what is behind you possibly be a bad thing*.



When it can distract you from what is going on in front of you. I found using a mirror really quite addictive - I liked seeing what was going on behind me. At first, I put this down to the novelty factor, but after a few months and a few swerves later, I realised that I was not able to use the mirror effectively. This was most likely a cognitive failure on my part.


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## Dogtrousers (20 Aug 2015)

Another scenario - albeit rather unusual - where a mirror is really useful is when leading another, slower, rider up a long ascent on a busy road. You need to match your speed to theirs, riding in twos is a bit awkward due to the traffic, you don't want to be constantly shoulder checking - and thus appear impatient, and you don't want to ride away from them. In these circs a mirror is just the ticket.


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## stoatsngroats (20 Aug 2015)

Wow, many views, but most opting for no mirror - myself included.

The reason is it counts for nothing that I cannot achieve without a turn of the head, road position,and the use of my ears - (this is an important point, but my personal choice).

Mirrors allow you to see a small portion of what is behind, but a look gives a MUCH better understanding (my opinion), and gives an indication to other (observant) drivers. 

Another point - I don't 'feel' vulnerable on the road, and maybe I'm lucky that where I ride people take the time to consider how they can pass - that's rural/urban Sussex, Hampshire & Guernsey so far, and more historically South London and Surrey.

For all other vehicles, excluding Coach/bus/lorry, a near-side mirror seems to be very little used, yet in larger vehicles they are an important part of driving safely,(generally!!) so mirrors are really horses for courses - if you can't do without a mirror, that's great, but for me, not in any way necessary.


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## Dan B (20 Aug 2015)

It's interesting to read of some uses people have for their mirrors (nobody's mentioned "snorting coke" yet, what's up with that?) but I am still going to side with the "can't see any benefit for my circumstances" crowd. I ride far enough into the road that I don't swerve for potholes or doors and I generally ride at close enough to traffic speed (this is in London) that I have no reluctance to take the lane if I'm going to turn right. Also any sticky out bits are regularly going to get whacked by another bike either in the stack of bikes in my kitchen or the orderly line of bikes in the bike store at work. 

I accept that these circumstances may not be universal


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## ClichéGuevara (20 Aug 2015)

I think they come in handy when reversing the bike into tight spaces.


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## Dan B (20 Aug 2015)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I think they come in handy when reversing the bike into tight spaces.


You don't have parking cameras?


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## EltonFrog (20 Aug 2015)

He did didn't last long did he? That has to be the quickest flounce in history. I bet he woke the internet up when slammed the door on the way out.

I haven't got a mirror 'cos I don't want one. I use "The Force" when I'm out on the bike.


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## ClichéGuevara (20 Aug 2015)

Dan B said:


> You don't have parking cameras?



I used to, but it's a condition of my parole that I can't use them. It's all just a misunderstanding down to my poor fettling skills, and not the scenario painted by the prosecution who reckoned them being so far toward the path and pointing upwards was deliberate on my part. I offered unreserved apologies and a copy of the tape to the young lady too.

I find mirrors leave less evidence.


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## Custom24 (20 Aug 2015)

I have a Take A Look mirror, mounts to helmet or glasses. I tried a handlebar one from Halfords before, and it was pointless.

I decided to get the helmet one after I was nearly taken out by a car that unexpectedly passed within a whisker.

The mirror is good optically and in terms of image stability, but it doesn't really help with close passers. There just isn't enough time to realise that the car behind is going to pass too closely, or at least enough time to be so sure of this that an emergency get out of the way is needed. At least not on the roads I cycle.

I have found it useful in that it adds to my awareness of what's around me, and for that reason, I still wear it.

But at least the idea of a mirror is not as misguided as this https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/into-sports/cycling/varia-rearview-radar/prod518151.html. WTF?


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## growingvegetables (20 Aug 2015)

Custom24 said:


> .... not as misguided as this https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/into-sports/cycling/varia-rearview-radar/prod518151.html. WTF?


Not much use, really. "Processing time is 3–5 weeks." Or ....... have I missed summat?


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## ClichéGuevara (20 Aug 2015)

Custom24 said:


> But at least the idea of a mirror is not as misguided as this https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/into-sports/cycling/varia-rearview-radar/prod518151.html. WTF?



Amazing what technology can do these days.

"indicates the relative speed of approach and threat level" Presumably it recognises madmen with knives or guns?


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## theclaud (21 Aug 2015)

swansonj said:


> *I am about to do that thing that always gets me really worried - disagree with @theclaud ...*
> 
> I use a mirror on all three bikes (tandem, solo, Brompton) and it's the same one, a Mirrycle. I agree that cheaper mirrors I tried before hitting on Mirrycles vibrated too much to be very useful. 90% of my cycling is in one posture and I agree the usefulness would diminish if you swap positions.
> 
> ...



It's good for me - it gives me pause for thought. Anyway I'm not a velonobber and I don't object to people having mirrors if they want them. I just don't want them myself, and it gets on my tits when people barge in shouting that people who don't have mirrors must be insane. But at least we get a good flounce.


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## RichardB (21 Aug 2015)

I dislike clutter on a bike, but I am considering getting a mirror for the commuter. Although nothing can replace a shoulder check, a mirror would reduce the frequency needed. I reckon it's a good idea to have a general awareness of what is going on behind, in order to plan lane changes etc well in advance - so four glances in a mirror and one lifesaver, rather than constantly looking over the shoulder. On my commute (mainly narrow rural roads), I always try to move into a passing space to let following vehicles through, as traffic is light and I have no wish to hold anyone up, but sometimes I don't hear a car until it is close behind me - usually just past a suitable widening of the road, so I have to push on half a mile to the next one with a Range Rover up my chuff. Knowing he was there half a minute earlier would have let me plan better. I'm still undecided, but this thread has been informative and unintentionally very entertaining, at least at the beginning. I do like a good flounce.

Having ridden motorbikes for 40+ years, I can't imagine riding one without a mirror. And yet, logically, a slow vehicle has more need of knowing what is behind than a fast one ("warning - objects in the mirror no longer matter").


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## swansonj (21 Aug 2015)

theclaud said:


> It's good for me - it gives me pause for thought. Anyway I'm not a velonobber and I don't object to people having mirrors if they want them. I just don't want them myself, and it gets on my tits when people barge in shouting that people who don't have mirrors must be insane. But at least we get a good flounce.


I will vouch for the fact that there are several things about my bike that are not to your taste - mirror is just the start, try hub gears and mudguards - but you have never once passed comment. 

You've made me think about "clutter" too. 

There's physical clutter and psychological clutter.

Physical clutter/beauty in a bicycle is personal. Could I claim that, whilst I may have cluttered the bike with a mirror, I've de cluttered it by choosing hub gears and thereby ditching the dérailleurs? But actually, I don't want to claim that, I have (unfortunately) an engineer's instincts, and beauty to me comes from functionality, not just from simplicity. 

Psychological clutter is more significant. Yes, my choice to fit a mirror is, at one level, one further step away from the ideal of just getting on a bike and riding, one further surrender to an anti-cycling culture that tries only to allow us on to the roads if we take this precaution and that precaution and load ourselves up with apparatus ostensibly about safety but more about not inconveniencing motorists. And yet: it works the other way round too. My ideal of cycling is that it should be as simple and natural as possible. No special training, no special clothing, no special footwear, no special protective equipment, just walk out the house, get on the bike, and cycle. For me, a mirror, by making the process of cycling on roads just that little bit easier, counts as psychological "simplification" not "clutter". I think.


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## martint235 (21 Aug 2015)

I'm starting to feel that I'm the only person who rides down the centre line of a busy dual carriageway at speed. I was thinking about it this morning and it would slow me a lot if I didn't have a mirror.


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## Dan B (21 Aug 2015)

martint235 said:


> I'm starting to feel that I'm the only person who rides down the centre line of a busy dual carriageway at speed.


I tried it once but I fell off the Armco


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## martint235 (21 Aug 2015)

Dan B said:


> I tried it once but I fell off the Armco


Ha . Not that centre line obvs.


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## gottogetfit (21 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> Guys, guys........Please don't talk rubbish....I have a mirror on my bicycle, I use it ALL the time, it's NOT useless, I can see behind me perfectly well.
> Origamist.....Surely knowing what's behind you MUST help? A car approaching at speed too close to you.......A tipper lorry swerving....any number of things. Surely ANYTHING that keeps you safer has GOT to be a good thing?
> DRYysted......Mirror creating problems? pray tell how?
> Drago....Vibrates?...we talking about a motorcycle here?????


well said


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## glenn forger (21 Aug 2015)

Looking behind is quicker, think about it, you don't have to refocus.


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## Spinney (21 Aug 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Looking behind is quicker, think about it, you don't have to refocus.


You don't have to refocus to look at _the image_ in the mirror.
If you're focussing on the frame of the mirror, yes, you would have to refocus, but then I think you might just be missing the point of having a mirror...

Looking in the mirror is quicker, think about it, you don't have to turn your head nearly as far.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (21 Aug 2015)

Spinney said:


> Looking in the mirror is quicker, think about it, you don't have to turn your head nearly as far.


I don't (usually) turn my head at all to look in the mirrors on my trike. It is all done by <oh crap I cant spell it> peripheral vision (thank you google), so it is even quicker. BUT most of the time you know automatically if something is there by using hearing! I only use the mirrors on the trike because it came with them and tbh 9 times out of 10 I would rather not know that the car behind me has just slammed on its brakes in an emergency stop (and usually stalled) because they decided they were overtaking me no matter what and the oncoming vehicle (on the blind bend) had other ideas. Its actually really stressful having mirrors as well as really useful!


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## summerdays (21 Aug 2015)

Are the mirrors on the trike further away? And nearer your normal eye line? For me I'd have to look down at the handlebars as well as the other looks to far distance, near distance, side, behind etc. I know when I've looked down to see what speed I'm doing I don't do if I'm going fast or if it's really busy needing my attention on the road.

I ought to give it a go to see if it would be distracting.


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## Spinney (21 Aug 2015)

I have to look down to look at my mirror (fastened in the bar end of drop bars) - but I find that much easier than turning my head around far enough to see behind me.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (21 Aug 2015)

I think these 2 pictures show it better than I can explain. In the 2nd, the centre or 12 o'clock is just off to the left of the picture. But I have never needed to look into the mirror to know if something like a car or bike is in it. Any change to the 'empty' is known to me without having to look into the mirror (same as with driving and the driver's wing mirror or internal mirror). that is the trick behind peripheral vision, you don't look directly at the mirror. It is there in your periphery and you know the change has occurred without needing to divert your attention (until safe to do so).






But don't get me wrong, there are enough for and against points on mirrors that I am neither for or against them. My trike has them so I use them. My other bikes including my tourer do not, so I use other things around me to compensate for that (and compensate fully imo).


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## winjim (21 Aug 2015)

martint235 said:


> I'm starting to feel that I'm the only person who rides down the centre line of a busy dual carriageway at speed. I was thinking about it this morning and it would slow me a lot if I didn't have a mirror.


Every morning, sans mirror. However it is a 30mph limit at rush hour so it's half filtering half sprinting and I'm usually going at a similar speed to the rest of the traffic.


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## martint235 (21 Aug 2015)

winjim said:


> Every morning, sans mirror. However it is a 30mph limit at rush hour so it's half filtering half sprinting and I'm usually going at a similar speed to the rest of the traffic.


I tend to be going quicker than the traffic but they really do have an annoying tendency to switch lanes with no notice. Then there's the motorbikes that share my space, I'm fairly considerate and don't like holding them up unnecessarily and you can't always hear them when you're between two trucks.


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## Salar (21 Aug 2015)

Ihatehills said:


> My bar end mirror is made by mirrcycle ( an atrocious name I accept) but it really does work, the field of vision is great and it doesn't vibrate loose like some reports suggest that the cheaper ones do.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Generic-Mirrycle-Bike-Mirror/dp/B00JQN3J50
> 
> I accept that that not everyone, needs , likes, wants or gives a fart about mirrors but some people are denying the fact that they can be useful. Yes they have limitations but when can having an extra awareness about what is behind you possibly be a bad thing.



I've never used a mirror, however this mirror certainly gets lots of positive comments and good reviews.
I would expect most of the reviews are from casual cyclists, not hardcore riders, although I might be wrong.
But, if it makes them feel safer in traffic and it works, good for them.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Aug 2015)

Incidentally it was a "Mirrcycle" that I used to have that fitted onto the top of ye olde fangled Weinmann brake hoods with top cable entry. That was really good, but I've not managed to get one as good for modern bikes. Not that I've tried terribly hard, but I have used a couple. There was a bar end one that fell off somewhere on its first ride and a rather wobbly one that clamps onto the side of the brake hood that I still sometimes use when riding in company (good for awareness of friends behind, to rein in my incredible speed and power to avoid riding away from them).


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## Lurpak (21 Aug 2015)

I can't look over my shoulder and still cycle in a straight line. Once I veered so much into the middle that I had to style it out by actually indicating right and turning up a sidestreet I didn't want to. I felt a right plum and no mistake. Now I'm trying out a new technique of looking down and back through my armpit. Less veering to report so far.


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## Ihatehills (21 Aug 2015)

Lurpak said:


> I can't look over my shoulder and still cycle in a straight line. Once I veered so much into the middle that I had to style it out by actually indicating right and turning up a sidestreet I didn't want to. I felt a right plum and no mistake. Now I'm trying out a new technique of looking down and back through my armpit. Less veering to report so far.


Lol, I tried the armpit technique and couldn't stay remotely straight plus everything was upside down, I don't have any trouble looking over my shoulder though


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## MontyVeda (21 Aug 2015)

Lurpak said:


> I can't look over my shoulder and still cycle in a straight line. Once I veered so much into the middle that I had to style it out by actually indicating right and turning up a sidestreet I didn't want to. I felt a right plum and no mistake. Now I'm trying out a new technique of looking down and back through my armpit. Less veering to report so far.



Can you 'glance' over your shoulder without inducing a wobble? Most of my shoulder checks are mere glances out of the corner of my eye. When i want to have a proper 'look', i tend to put my right hand on my right lap and look over my right shoulder, thus giving my shoulders much more movement without affecting my steering.


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## Origamist (21 Aug 2015)

Lurpak said:


> I can't look over my shoulder and still cycle in a straight line. Once I veered so much into the middle that I had to style it out by actually indicating right and turning up a sidestreet I didn't want to. I felt a right plum and no mistake. Now I'm trying out a new technique of looking down and back through my armpit. Less veering to report so far.



A bit of deviation is normal, but if you're having real issues, try removing your right hand from the bars and placing it on your thigh when you look back. Keep your left closer to the stem too. It sounds counter intuitive to remove a hand from the bars, but it makes it easier to pivot round, IME, for a good look back. Check ahead for obstacles or crappy surfaces first though! If you still struggle with shoulder checks, try practicing on quiet roads or in a large car park.


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## Smokin Joe (21 Aug 2015)

That's the best flounce we've had for a long time. The only thing he missed was, "And it's no use disagreeing with me because I'm off now and I won't be back".

*Mod note*: fun though it may be to discuss flouncing, it is off topic. Posts are about to be removed.
Please stick to the subject of mirrors.


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## w00hoo_kent (21 Aug 2015)

Glancing over shoulder, one technique that can help is bringing your chin to your shoulder rather than thinking about swinging your whole body round.


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## cd365 (21 Aug 2015)

Mirrors are just ugly on a bike!


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (21 Aug 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Glancing over shoulder, one technique that can help is bringing your chin to your shoulder rather than thinking about swinging your whole body round.


Not all of us can manage that anymore, hence the need for assistance in this matter.


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## Spinney (21 Aug 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Yes you do. Look it up. And stop handing out advice on stuff you know nothing about.


The image in a mirror is the same distance behind the mirror as the object (the car behind you) is in front. If you were looking at the traffic ahead, the distance at which your eyes are focussed will be very similar to the distance they need to focus on cars behind.

Perhaps you can explain _why_ you think I'm wrong?

Or was your 'yes you do' referring to the amount of head turning involved? If so, please explain why a movement of about 30 degrees for me to look into my bar end mirror does not qualify as 'not as far' as a movement of well over 90 degrees to see behind me (allowing for the extra angle I get by moving my eyes as well). Or why you assume that a larger head movement doesn't take longer?

Which of these two things (the physics of images in mirrors or how _I_ look in my own mirror) is it that you think I know nothing about?


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## EltonFrog (21 Aug 2015)

glenn forger said:


> *Mod Edit*: Post Deleted



Why do you have to make unpleasant comments?


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## Racing roadkill (21 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> OK, I'm a new poster on here. I'm a car driver, motorcyclist and cyclist.
> I've been on the road now for over 40 years on one form of transport or another and am VERY aware of the dangers we ALL face on the roads.
> I must ask one question of the cycling community....
> WHY for God's sake does nobody (apart from me it seems) have a rear view mirror on their bicycle?....
> ...


Really?


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## Luddite Joe (21 Aug 2015)

User said:


> You are a bit late to the party.



Yes, he needs to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Aug 2015)

Luddite Joe said:


> Yes, he needs to take a long, hard look at himself in the mirror.


I need time to reflect on this.


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## roadrash (21 Aug 2015)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMu1T_Tg5Fw


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## Slioch (21 Aug 2015)




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## Ihatehills (21 Aug 2015)

glenn forger said:


> They're pretty much pointless. For a start you are fixing something to the bars on a stiff brace that could pierce your eyeball and enter your brain. The shudder from even normal roads renders them useless, they fog and mist, you lose time refocusing, they increase danger because you lose the interaction with drivers that you get when you eyeball them. Making eye contact with drivers can be vitally important and stupid little farty mirrors mean you lose that benefit.



Pretty much pointless except for, you know, seeing what's behind without turning round, bit of a one trick pony I give you but a useful trick nonetheless.
My god you must really hate mirrors to resort to" it'll have your eye out".
Traumatic mirror experience in your youth ? 
I've no problem with people choosing not to use one, its a personal preference thing, but to claim that they are
A: Pointless, and 
B: Dangerous, is completely absurd


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## LonesomeWanderer (21 Aug 2015)

I feel there can be a danger with mirrors in that if you become overly reliant on them you can fail to do a proper shoulder check....


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## gavintc (21 Aug 2015)

Ihatehills said:


> Pretty much pointless except for, you know, seeing what's behind without turning round, bit of a one trick pony I give you but a useful trick nonetheless.
> My god you must really hate mirrors to resort to" it'll have your eye out".
> Traumatic mirror experience in your youth ?
> I've no problem with people choosing not to use one, its a personal preference thing, but to claim that they are
> ...


+1


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## EltonFrog (21 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> OK, I'm a new poster on here. I'm a car driver, motorcyclist and cyclist.



So have quite a few of us. Just 'cos you've got a license doesn't qualify you as having more experience than anyone else.



> I've been on the road now for over 40 years on one form of transport or another and am VERY aware of the dangers we ALL face on the roads.



So what? Some have been on the roads longer.




> I must ask one question of the cycling community....
> WHY for God's sake does nobody (apart from me it seems) have a rear view mirror on their bicycle?....



You've been a road user for 40 years and you don't know? God help you.



> I was taught to drive in 1975 and the one thing that my instructor impressed upon me is the need to be absolutely aware of everything going on around me, to the side and to the rear as well as in front.



Perhaps a re-test is in order?



> The thought of riding a bicycle on any road with a 30 ton lorry approaching from behind fills me with dread, not even being able to see it coming is surely insane!



Don't ride a bicycle then. Simples.



> Please don't post a reply about how the sound alerts you, we all see many cyclists riding with stereo's on their heads how would they hear?.... and the amount of cyclists looking over their shoulder is almost negligible.



That's just your experience, as a vehicle driver it's their, yours , our responsibility to look out for vulnerable road users and idiots.



> I just cannot understand why no mirrors.
> Simon



So you said



> PS, I'm very aware as my first post this might be taken by some to be provocative and argumentative...it's not meant to be.



Then perhaps your first posts should have been more generic then, let us get to know you first before posting inflammatory questions and opinions.




> If the post draws too many negative, nasty or inflammatory comments, I'll ask admin to pull it.



Go on then.


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## welsh dragon (21 Aug 2015)

The bottom line is a mirror is a personal choice. You either want one and use it or you don't. We all have the choice, so use whatever you want. Its the same with what bike to buy. It's a personal choice. What suits one won't suit another.

I have a mirror and use it. I don't give a toss what anyone else thinks.


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## Spinney (21 Aug 2015)

The OP actually flounced off yesterday.
And no, he didn't ask for the post to be 'pulled' - and in any case, showing yourself to be a fixed-minded individual who has not managed to persuade anyone (this is a polite version of my description) is not in itself grounds for closing a thread!


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## ChrisV (21 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> If the post draws too many negative, nasty or inflammatory comments, I'll ask admin to pull it.



That's a bit forward.


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## swansonj (21 Aug 2015)

Specifics of mirrors apart, this thread is thoroughly depressing as a case study in how, faced with an issue with two sides, too many proponents of both sides insist on destroying their case by taking it to ludicrous extremes ("mirrors are no use whatsoever"/"it's essential to have a mirror to safe").


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## oldroadman (21 Aug 2015)

simonjohnross said:


> Guys, guys........Please don't talk rubbish....I have a mirror on my bicycle, I use it ALL the time, it's NOT useless, I can see behind me perfectly well.
> Origamist.....Surely knowing what's behind you MUST help? A car approaching at speed too close to you.......A tipper lorry swerving....any number of things. Surely ANYTHING that keeps you safer has GOT to be a good thing?
> DRYysted......Mirror creating problems? pray tell how?
> Drago....Vibrates?...we talking about a motorcycle here?????


One thing I do understand - if you tell people they are talking rubbish - experienced riders - then asking further advice is going to be challenging. Go ahead and do what you believe is best, but respect others opinions, please.


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## Origamist (22 Aug 2015)

swansonj said:


> Specifics of mirrors apart, this thread is thoroughly depressing as a case study in how, faced with an issue with two sides, too many proponents of both sides insist on destroying their case by taking it to ludicrous extremes ("mirrors are no use whatsoever"/"it's essential to have a mirror to safe").



Quite, but most rational people can see beyond the excitable appeal to extremes as evidenced by a few posters on this thread. A more nuanced debate would certainly have been welcome, but the efficacy of mirrors as a safety measure for cyclists was only ever going to be speculative. However, I agree that this thread is unlikely to assist people making a more informed decision about mirror use and, I accept that my initial approach to dealing with a fundamentalist/troll OP was not likely to help matters.


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## MontyVeda (22 Aug 2015)

Origamist said:


> ... I accept that my initial approach to dealing with a fundamentalist/troll OP was not likely to help matters.



Like me, you probably assumed that the OP wanted to understand why some cyclists don't use a mirror... but it quickly transpired that he wasn't interested in trying to understand anything.


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## Chaz32 (23 Aug 2015)

Only started cycling again recently and I am not that confident on bike yet to turn my head around to look behind. I am not sure about mirrors on bikes. There are times I would like one but that may distract me from looking ahead. Also being on a bike you can hear when a car is approaching behind. In terms of the safety aspect of having mirrors I am not sure having mirrors will make me safer on the road. It could have the total opposite effect. I used to be a driving instructor I always taught car drivers to use mirrors for reasons of safety giving reasons why we should check mirrors and what to do in the case of a situation coming up in the vision of the mirrors. But cycling is different in many ways. I would much prefer cyclists to be looking ahead rather than looking in vibrating mirrors. In a car you can check mirror with a quick glance but but on a bike when the mirror is vibrating badly you will be encouraged to stare in that mirror and that could lead to a lack of awareness of what is ahead of you. The vibration issue could also distort the image you would see and lead to taking action that is not safe.


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## Elswick Cotterpin (23 Aug 2015)

Well... I use mirrors. I like them, I feel safer. There are pro and cons, but we can all make our own decisions and reach our own conclusions. each to his/her own.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (23 Aug 2015)

Chaz32 said:


> Only started cycling again recently and I am not that confident on bike yet to turn my head around to look behind. I am not sure about mirrors on bikes. There are times I would like one but that may distract me from looking ahead. Also being on a bike you can hear when a car is approaching behind. In terms of the safety aspect of having mirrors I am not sure having mirrors will make me safer on the road. It could have the total opposite effect. I used to be a driving instructor I always taught car drivers to use mirrors for reasons of safety giving reasons why we should check mirrors and what to do in the case of a situation coming up in the vision of the mirrors. But cycling is different in many ways. I would much prefer cyclists to be looking ahead rather than looking in vibrating mirrors. In a car you can check mirror with a quick glance but but on a bike when the mirror is vibrating badly you will be encouraged to stare in that mirror and that could lead to a lack of awareness of what is ahead of you. The vibration issue could also distort the image you would see and lead to taking action that is not safe.


there are also plenty of other sources for information on what is going on around you (except for providing information about other cyclists). Reflections in windows, bus stops, other vehicles (it clean enough) all prove enough information to know that there is a vehicle. People seem to forget that you don't need to know that make model or even colour of a vehicle to know that it exists and that is all that is needed in the way of information. That there is a vehicle there. 

Mirrors are no different to the helmet/headphones debate. They are your choice and that's the end of it really. Your choice.


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## Dayvo (23 Aug 2015)

Wonder if the OP wears a helmet/jumps red lights/ etc.


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## winjim (23 Aug 2015)

Are there really cyclists who can't / won't look behind themselves safely? You need to stop riding in traffic, find a nice quiet road and practice. It's such a fundamental and necessary skill for riding a bike.

Excepting those with neck mobility issues etc. They should probably get a mirror.


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## winjim (23 Aug 2015)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> Mirrors are no different to the helmet/headphones debate. They are your choice and that's the end of it really. Your choice.


I have been mentally replacing the word _mirror_ with the word _helmet_ throughout this entire thread.


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## summerdays (23 Aug 2015)

winjim said:


> Are there really cyclists who can't / won't look behind themselves safely? You need to stop riding in traffic, find a nice quiet road and practice. It's such a fundamental and necessary skill for riding a bike.
> 
> Excepting those with neck mobility issues etc. They should probably get a mirror.


It is a skill, just like all the other ones such as signalling, reading the road, cycling in a straight line, track standing cornering at speed etc. some find it easier than others. I imagine if you find it difficult you won't be cycling in central London or other busy cities for example, if you cycle on really quiet roads then you could hear approaching traffic fairly well. Yes you should keep on practising it, trying to improve, but they may have adapted their cycling to suit their skills.


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## jdtate101 (23 Aug 2015)

Evolution gave us a thing called a neck that turns and allows you to look behind you, plus two ears to hear with, so no need for mirrors. Plus you look a complete dork with one of these attached to your helmet. I think perhaps the only time that mirror use is sensible on a bike is perhaps a recumbent due to the fact that it's harder to twist the upper body to look behind.


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## wheresthetorch (23 Aug 2015)

winjim said:


> I have been mentally replacing the word _mirror_ with the word _helmet_ throughout this entire thread.



My helmet isn't shiny enough


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## Chaz32 (23 Aug 2015)

winjim said:


> Are there really cyclists who can't / won't look behind themselves safely? You need to stop riding in traffic, find a nice quiet road and practice. It's such a fundamental and necessary skill for riding a bike.
> 
> Excepting those with neck mobility issues etc. They should probably get a mirror.


I only cycle on quiet country roads. I am practising turning head round while cycling I will not be going in high traffic areas until I feel completely safe doing this.


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## Dayvo (23 Aug 2015)

If you can learn to do this 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO9FD7zI7k0
then you'll be fine.

Keep the volume off to avoid bad language (I think).


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## Pale Rider (23 Aug 2015)

Bar end mirrors on all my bikes.

I like to glance regularly as I trundle along, even on cycle paths.

Particularly handy on my regular group rides to see how far behind some of the others are.

Believe it or not, there are sometimes members of the group behind me.

Shoulder check as well for right turns.


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## swansonj (23 Aug 2015)

winjim said:


> Are there really cyclists who can't / won't look behind themselves safely?


I can, I do, and I still choose to fit a mirror, thanks. I can cycle up Box Hill in a 50" gear, but I choose to cycle up it in a 30" gear - it's easier. God speed to anyone who chooses to cycle up hills in a higher gear than me, or not to fit a mirror. I trust you in turn will wish me God speed, and preferably avoid implying that I fit a mirror because I haven't bothered to acquire the skill of looking behind me.


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## swansonj (23 Aug 2015)

jdtate101 said:


> Evolution gave us a thing called a neck that turns and allows you to look behind you, plus two ears to hear with, so no need for mirrors.


Evolution provided us with two legs that articulate in a way that allows walking from A to B, so no need for bicycles at all?
(Repeat for the avoidance of doubt - I have no objection whatsoever to people not fitting mirrors, just to arguments that appear flawed to support their choices. This really is very like helmets, isn't it...)


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## winjim (23 Aug 2015)

swansonj said:


> I can, I do, and I still choose to fit a mirror, thanks. I can cycle up Box Hill in a 50" gear, but I choose to cycle up it in a 30" gear - it's easier. God speed to anyone who chooses to cycle up hills in a higher gear than me, or not to fit a mirror. I trust you in turn will wish me God speed, and preferably avoid implying that I fit a mirror because I haven't bothered to acquire the skill of looking behind me.


That is not what I was intending to imply. I think it's important that all cyclists develop road skills including looking behind them, but it's absolutely up to you if you choose to augment this skill by also fitting a mirror . So yes, God speed, whatever gear you choose to ride in!

(My comment was aimed at the people who have explicitly said that they can't safely look behind them.)


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## Origamist (23 Aug 2015)

Elswick Cotterpin said:


> *Well... I use mirrors. I like them, I feel safer*. There are pro and cons, but we can all make our own decisions and reach our own conclusions. each to his/her own.



In the understandable absence of objective, robust studies (or any study for that matter), the subjective safety is argument is going to carry a significant amount of weight for people on both sides of the mirror debate, but particularly mirror users. The degree to which behavioural adaptation will play a role in affecting any safety benefit a mirror confers, is anybody's guess, but I'd be surprised if it didn't have an effect.


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## martint235 (23 Aug 2015)

I have a bar end mirror on both road bikes. As said they are useful for just checking what's occurring behind me. I doubt they induce any significant amount of drag on the bike, particularly at the speeds I go, so I don't understand how anyone can be vehemently against them.

Then again I've ridden bikes without them and I don't understand how anyone can be vehemently for them either. A useful tool and that's about it. Can we move on to slagging off helmets again now please?


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## roadrash (23 Aug 2015)

im waiting for someone to come along and say i cycle whilst wearing a helmet coz it once saved my life when i ran a red light while looking in my mirror to see if the chap wearing headphones and team kit had waved at me or not.......


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## Lurpak (23 Aug 2015)

roadrash said:


> im waiting for someone to come along and say i cycle whilst wearing a helmet coz it once saved my life when i ran a red light while looking in my mirror to see if the chap wearing headphones and team kit had waved at me or not.......


Someone did. In 2009 aaaahhhhhh.


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## classic33 (23 Aug 2015)

swansonj said:


> Evolution provided us with two legs that articulate in a way that allows walking from A to B, so no need for bicycles at all?
> (Repeat for the avoidance of doubt - I have no objection whatsoever to people not fitting mirrors, just to arguments that appear flawed to support their choices. This really is very like helmets, isn't it...)


The wheel allowed faster movement from A to B though. At first propelled by the feet on the ground.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (24 Aug 2015)

roadrash said:


> im waiting for someone to come along and say i cycle whilst wearing a helmet coz it once saved my life when i ran a red light while looking in my mirror to see if the chap wearing headphones and team kit had waved at me or not.......


 you missed out the fact they were also wearing a hi-viz jacket and it was raining at the time!


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## Ganymede (24 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE 3868870, member: 259"]I like mirrors and I think they're very useful, but I haven't seen anything that seems as if it will work convincingly on drop bars.
I have Mirrycle ones on the flat barred bikes, which work very well and don't suffer from vibration problems at all.
I wouldn't ride a motorbike without a mirror either.[/QUOTE]
Have you tried one on your cap/helmet? I really want to know if anyone has and if it works well - having seen this bloke sculling with one on the Thames.


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## uclown2002 (24 Aug 2015)

I have as much use for a mirror, as I do for a bell, i.e none.


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## swansonj (24 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE 3868870, member: 259"]I like mirrors and I think they're very useful, but I haven't seen anything that seems as if it will work convincingly on drop bars.
I have Mirrycle ones on the flat barred bikes, which work very well and don't suffer from vibration problems at all.
I wouldn't ride a motorbike without a mirror either.[/QUOTE]
I adapted a Mirrycle for drop bars. I took the variant designed for old-style brake levers where the cable came out of the top of the hood. I filled in the cylindrical end, the bit the hollow bolt goes through, with epoxy, then drilled a smaller (M4 clearance) hole through that. I then drilled and tapped an M4 threaded hole in the solid top of the brake lever, and cut a corresponding hole in the robber hood. It works, though I would assume that a good sharp knock might well beak it.

That was in the days when I had (a) more spare time (b) access to a workshop. It seemed worth it because Mirrycles do seem to be about the only mirror immune to vibration problems.


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## Ganymede (24 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE 3868924, member: 259"]No, I don't wear a helmet any more, and I always supposed they needed something solid to be fixed to.[/QUOTE]
That's why I said "cap/helmet", not knowing in advance what your preference is. This chap in the boat was just wearing an ordinary cap, but if you don't wear anything on your head it's not viable obvs! - just thought I'd mention it as you like mirrors. I want someone to come on this thread and say if it's a good way of using a mirror or not! Hey ho. 

BTW I suspect it's not a brilliant solution as the mirror would be so close to your eye and be distracting and poss block the view of other things on the road. Less of a concern on the river where the traffic is slower and the bends/topography more of a known quantity to a regular club rower.


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## Origamist (24 Aug 2015)

Ganymede said:


> Have you tried one on your cap/helmet? I really want to know if anyone has and if it works well - having seen this bloke sculling with one on the Thames.



A "take a look mirror" will fit to a helmet or glasses - I'm not sure if it would work with a cap - perhaps if the seam/edge was reasonably thick it would grip OK. I found it very good at giving a view behind me, if properly set up (it does need a bit of tweeking). The downside is that it does create a blindspot when you look ahead.


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## MontyVeda (24 Aug 2015)

Ganymede said:


> Have you tried one on your cap/helmet? I really want to know if anyone has and if it works well - having seen this bloke sculling with one on the Thames.


this bloke?


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## oldroadman (24 Aug 2015)

Thanks to all conItributors for giving me a good laugh about nothing in particular on a wet day. We're all different..all have opinions...all think they are probably OK..
But what do I know? It's an amusement to while away the time until it stops raining and I can get out.


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## Lonestar (24 Aug 2015)

Thought of using a mirror loads of times.(come into thread a bit late).My look on mirrors is I would probably panic if I saw something haring up on me when sometimes this isn't the best course of action and I prefer to look round at regular intervals as well.Possibly gives me a better insight of what's going on around me and the risks also.


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## young Ed (24 Aug 2015)

a mirror, my god! have you ever thought of your aerodynamic profile and wind flows over you and your bike? 
joking aside, it is a bit more weight if you are that conscious of weight, it's another part to get damaged and is fairly likely to get damaged, i always do 'life saver checks' over my shoulder (i even do them when just getting out of a chair!) and i am always looking all around
whilst driving tractors on the roads and off road i never use mirrors because most of them are broken or folded back to avoid damage and i am always moving my head to check all round which allows to to see both the areas mirrors can see and those they can't. the only time they are really useful is when reversing a car or reversing larger vehicles (such as tractors) with a trailer especially in confined/tighter spaces
Cheers Ed


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## Ihatehills (24 Aug 2015)

young Ed said:


> a mirror, my god! have you ever thought of your aerodynamic profile and wind flows over you and your bike?



So THAT'S why I'm so slow :-)


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## Banjo (24 Aug 2015)

For a few months after a neck operation i was totally reliant on mirrors.

I survived so they must work but feel better having a proper look behind.


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## wam68 (24 Aug 2015)

Mirrors are bound to cost me an increase in grms. So it's the bin for them. My rubber neck is equally as efficient.


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## Dayvo (24 Aug 2015)

Ganymede said:


> Have you tried one on your cap/helmet? I really want to know if anyone has and if it works well - *having seen this bloke sculling with one on the Thames*.



I reckon it worked *really well* as I doubt he got mowed down by an artic turning left!


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## Ganymede (24 Aug 2015)

Dayvo said:


> I reckon it worked *really well* as I doubt he got mowed down by an artic turning left!


He didn't, you know....


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## JMAG (17 Sep 2015)

LonesomeWanderer said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one, when walking with someone they always ask why I keep looking over my shoulder.





young Ed said:


> i always do 'life saver checks' over my shoulder (i even do them when just getting out of a chair!) and i am always looking all around


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## RichardB (17 Sep 2015)

40 years of motorcycling means that the left and right shoulder checks are totally ingrained. Like others, I even do lifesavers while walking, and it has saved my bacon more than once in the car.


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## Shut Up Legs (17 Sep 2015)

I use a Zefal Spy mirror attached to my right brake hood, and have been using them for years. I still do the occasional head-turn also, though, when necessary. I'm used to using it, just like a competent motorist can use his/her mirrors without losing track of his/her surroundings. I have no issue with those who think they're unnecessary: each to his/her *** own.

*** English badly needs a third-person gender-neutral singular pronoun! Don't even suggest the pronoun 'one', as it's only used in limited contexts, and sounds odd outside those.


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## classic33 (17 Sep 2015)

Shut Up Legs said:


> I use a Zefal Spy mirror attached to my right brake hood, and have been using them for years. I still do the occasional head-turn also, though, when necessary. I'm used to using it, just like a competent motorist can use his/her mirrors without losing track of his/her surroundings. I have no issue with those who think they're unnecessary: each to his/her *** own.
> 
> *** English badly needs a third-person gender-neutral singular pronoun! Don't even suggest the pronoun 'one', as it's only used in limited contexts, and sounds odd outside those.


How about "their" being used?


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## RichardB (17 Sep 2015)

classic33 said:


> How about "their" being used?


To some of us crusties, 'their' is and will always be a plural. Using 'their' to refer to a singular person grates, no matter how widespread its use is.

I'm from the days when schools taught grammar, and we were told that 'the male embraces the female, ho ho', i.e. that if referring to an individual whose gender is unknown, the masculine pronoun is understood to include the feminine. Each to *his* own, as it were. I know I am swimming against the tide here. In the end, usage rules, and whatever people say is what the language is. But I don't have to like it.

I do a lot of report and manual writing, and I am quite happy to use his/her as a gender-neutral pronoun. Not too cumbersome, and upsets no-one.


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## RichardB (18 Sep 2015)

RichardB said:


> I do a lot of report and manual writing, and I am quite happy to use his/her as a gender-neutral pronoun. Not too cumbersome, and upsets no-one.


Just to add ... I once read an article which used his/her and her/his (and their equivalents, such as him/her, her/him) alternately. A Gold Star for gender-neutrality and fairness, but it was a nightmare to read. As George Orwell wrote, "Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous."


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## earlestownflya (18 Sep 2015)

sorry simon,you could never rely on a rear view mirror on a bicycle...it would be suicidal...maybe ok on a canal tow path .never on the public highway


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## earlestownflya (18 Sep 2015)

and don't tell me you can judge speed through it,cause you can't


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## RichardB (19 Sep 2015)

earlestownflya said:


> sorry simon,you could never rely on a rear view mirror on a bicycle...it would be suicidal...maybe ok on a canal tow path .never on the public highway





earlestownflya said:


> and don't tell me you can judge speed through it,cause you can't


I don't think anyone is suggesting that people use a mirror exclusively, to judge the speed of overtaking traffic or whether or not it is safe to turn right. That would be stupid. But as a way of keeping a picture of what is going on behind and planning moves in advance (with confirmation from a proper look behind when needed) I think they are very effective. I wouldn't like to ride a motorbike without at least one mirror, and that's when you are faster than most traffic, not slower. I'm thinking of getting a mirror on the commuter bike, not to rely on but as way of getting advance warning of what is going on in my blind spot. True, in a mirror you can't judge speed accurately, but that's not what they are for. They tell you things are there and approaching you - useful stuff to know. You can get that from a glance behind, but you can check a mirror every few seconds if needs be. Harder to look over your shoulder every few seconds and keep aware of what is going on ahead. I wouldn't rely on one, but I wouldn't dismiss it either.


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## earlestownflya (19 Sep 2015)

certainly use it for a glance,i would agree with that totally,good post,rich


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## RichardB (19 Sep 2015)

*blushes*


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## classic33 (19 Sep 2015)

RichardB said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting that people use a mirror exclusively, to judge the speed of overtaking traffic or whether or not it is safe to turn right. That would be stupid. But as a way of keeping a picture of what is going on behind and planning moves in advance (with confirmation from a proper look behind when needed) I think they are very effective. I wouldn't like to ride a motorbike without at least one mirror, and that's when you are faster than most traffic, not slower. I'm thinking of getting a mirror on the commuter bike, not to rely on but as way of getting advance warning of what is going on in my blind spot. True, in a mirror you can't judge speed accurately, but that's not what they are for. They tell you things are there and approaching you - useful stuff to know. You can get that from a glance behind, but you can check a mirror every few seconds if needs be. Harder to look over your shoulder every few seconds and keep aware of what is going on ahead. I wouldn't rely on one, but I wouldn't dismiss it either.


On motorbike you lose part of your hearing ability, due to an enclosed environment around the head.


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## Salar (19 Sep 2015)

These marmite threads are fascinating.


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## JMAG (19 Sep 2015)

Two of us got buzzed by a motorbike this morning. I can't say exactly how close he came to me, but he came within a gnats hair of my buddy. I have a mirror, but I seldom have it on the bike. I'm not sure how it would have made any difference today, but I may have dived for the grass verge or at least made sure I didn't change my line even if confronted with a pothole.

The motorbike was travelling so fast neither of us even had time for a shoulder check nor able catch the number plate. I wish I'd had a cam though as the Police might take action given video evidence and 2 witnesses, which
which one of our group thought was what's required for them to take action. I've no idea if this is true, but it was only luck that prevented someone getting hurt. He also buzzed the others further back down the road, so there's no doubt it was deliberate.


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## snorri (19 Sep 2015)

earlestownflya said:


> sorry simon,you could never rely on a rear view mirror on a bicycle...it would be suicidal...maybe ok on a canal tow path .never on the public highway


Simon joined CC on the 20th August and flounced later in the day, I doubt he will be back.


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## classic33 (19 Sep 2015)

snorri said:


> Simon joined CC on the 20th August and flounced later in the day, I doubt he will be back.


Think he's still here.


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## RedRider (19 Sep 2015)

Cyclist with a Mirror


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## earlestownflya (19 Sep 2015)

very clever


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## earlestownflya (19 Sep 2015)

no doubt cyclists are not given a wide enough berth by the majority of motorists on british roads.only if they were cyclists themselves would they know about grid covers,potholes and other sh*te in the gutter,had many a close call involving lorries.We need more cams out there to catch these b*stards and get them prosecuted.Unfortunately you're always going to get this happening.That's why you've always gotta be on you're mettle.


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## RichardB (22 Sep 2015)

classic33 said:


> On motorbike you lose part of your hearing ability, due to an enclosed environment around the head.



My motorcycle helmet (a Shoei) was pretty quiet, and the straps on my cycle helmet make a lot of noise in the wind. I am not sure I can hear too much of a difference, to be honest. I certainly don't hear cars approaching from behind unless they rev their engines.



RedRider said:


> Cyclist with a Mirror


Nah, that's a broadsheet. Telegraph, at a minimum!


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## Tin Pot (22 Sep 2015)

The Motorcyclist, the May Fly of humanity, advising on road safety.

Not so much hilarious, as fleeting entertainment whilst the wine is being poured, before something worth paying attention to comes on.

Is the OP dead yet?


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## RichardB (22 Sep 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> The Motorcyclist, the May Fly of humanity, advising on road safety.
> 
> Not so much hilarious, as fleeting entertainment whilst the wine is being poured, before something worth paying attention to comes on.


Was that remark directed at me? I'm trying to work out if it is a serious contribution or just a snide comment.


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## Tin Pot (22 Sep 2015)

RichardB said:


> Was that remark directed at me? I'm trying to work out if it is a serious contribution or just a snide comment.



At simonjohnross, the OP.

And snide or humourous depending on your tastes.


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## RichardB (22 Sep 2015)

OK, thanks for disambiguating


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## mybike (30 Sep 2015)

Custom24 said:


> I have a Take A Look mirror, mounts to helmet or glasses. I tried a handlebar one from Halfords before, and it was pointless.
> 
> I decided to get the helmet one after I was nearly taken out by a car that unexpectedly passed within a whisker.
> 
> ...



Just seen this review https://www.facebook.com/prosapologian/posts/1040686652622853


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## Turdus philomelos (30 Sep 2015)

I have gained a remarkable six sense since I started cycling. I can on most part, also read other road users minds. Sadly many are quite negative thoughts towards me. 

Yes I have tried a mirror, but I much prefer turning my head.


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## Custom24 (30 Sep 2015)

mybike said:


> Just seen this review https://www.facebook.com/prosapologian/posts/1040686652622853


I really don't get it. He says it's a no brainer. Well then it is a very expensive no brainer.

He also says it might just let you know about the guy texting who is about to hit you. Maybe, just maybe, in some specific circumstances, if you were staring at it, you might realise that the dot on it was moving towards you more quickly than it should be. But my guess is that if you were staring at it like that, you would have other problems.


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## Shut Up Legs (30 Sep 2015)

jdtate101 said:


> Evolution gave us a thing called a neck that turns and allows you to look behind you, plus two ears to hear with, so no need for mirrors. Plus you look a complete dork with one of these attached to your helmet. I think perhaps the only time that mirror use is sensible on a bike is perhaps a recumbent due to the fact that it's harder to twist the upper body to look behind.


... and some of us were born with less than ideal hearing, or have trouble turning our necks that far. As for the dork comment, that just reflects (badly) on you.


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## swansonj (1 Oct 2015)

Custom24 said:


> I really don't get it. He says it's a no brainer. Well then it is a very expensive no brainer.
> 
> He also says it might just let you know about the guy texting who is about to hit you. Maybe, just maybe, in some specific circumstances, if you were staring at it, you might realise that the dot on it was moving towards you more quickly than it should be. But my guess is that if you were staring at it like that, you would have other problems.


There's something about the psychology of cycling as well. Part of what I want out of cycling is the same as what I want out of hill walking - the simplicity of being out in the natural world, making progress through that world by my own efforts, as directly connected to that world in as simple a way as possible. Of course, I compromise that desire for simplicity in all sorts of ways, and I would not for a moment defend my choices as objective or consistent. For instance, I choose to cycle on a Rohloff, which in some ways is probably about as complicated as you can get. But I choose a simple, passive, fixed mirror, and have complete sympathy with people who choose not even that. To be cycling along with a radar screen in front of me would feel alien to the spirit of cycling.


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## swansonj (1 Oct 2015)

User said:


> Rohloff, the over thinking man's solution to gearing.


Hmmm. On the other hand, Rohloff, for its user, the most reliable, low input, low hassle solution to wide-range gearing.


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## Drago (1 Oct 2015)

You left out heaviest and mechanically most resistive. There ain't no perfect solution out there.


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## swansonj (1 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> You left out heaviest and mechanically most resistive. There ain't no perfect solution out there.


Heaviest, yes. Mechanically most resistive, well, no, actually. Some of the complexity (and weight and certainly cost) of Rohloffs comes from the efforts they put in to reducing resistance. More resistance than a well-maintained derailleur, yes, certainly. Compared to a poorly maintained, poorly adjusted derailleur? Probably a bit better. Compared to other hub gears? Definitely better. Like you say, there ain't no perfect solution; Rohloff's are, depending on your relative priorities, about the best compromise. If your priorities are different, they won't be. Bit like mirrors. And clipless.


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## Drago (1 Oct 2015)

So more resistance than a well maintained mech? Exactly what I meant.

Heaviest. Yep, no TdF racers clamouring to fit them.

However, low maintenance, the potential for great reliability (although when they do fail you can't bodge your way round it as you might with a mech), so they do have some advantages.

As yet there's no perfect gearing solution. All we can do is move the needle around the dial for the compromise that suits us best, so campaigning any one system is a bit pointless.

PS, I like the username.


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## swansonj (1 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> So more resistance than a well maintained mech? Exactly what I meant.
> 
> Heaviest. Yep, no TdF racers clamouring to fit them.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. There's a delicate line between explaining why I concluded a Rohloff was the least bad compromise for me, and seeming to seek to persuade others it might be the best compromise for them. If I strayed into the latter, I apologise. 

Anyway, back to mirrors, and I think we probably have close to unanimity that, whatever our views on mirrors, radar screens are possibly OTT...


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## Jody (1 Oct 2015)

Serious comment. Whats flouncing?


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## Jody (1 Oct 2015)

Cheers Adrian


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## classic33 (1 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> So more resistance than a well maintained mech? Exactly what I meant.
> 
> Heaviest. Yep, no TdF racers clamouring to fit them.


Use isn't allowed in order to prevent mechanical doping. All parts of the drive train to visible.


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## Drago (1 Oct 2015)

They could fit a plexiglass window to one side of the hub. It they were that good they'd find a way.


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## jonny jeez (1 Oct 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> Mirrors are useful for checking nothing is coming up behind you when you pull out to overtake something at 30+ mph.
> 
> On a bicycle, you don't often pull out to overtake stuff, and you're often not going so fast you can't have a look around first.


You should try cycling in town


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## PhilDawson8270 (1 Oct 2015)

jonny jeez said:


> You should try cycling in town


No thanks.

I much prefer the countryside as the sun is going down


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## biking_fox (1 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> So more resistance than a well maintained mech? Exactly what I meant.
> 
> Heaviest. Yep, no TdF racers clamouring to fit them.
> 
> ...



Yes you can - the most common failure mode is a cable snap/wear/jam. You can still cycle perfectly fine like that you manually adjust it to gear you need and it stays there. Unlike with a mech. 

But I agree they aren't to everyone's set of personal compromises.


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## TreeHuggery (1 Oct 2015)

RedRider said:


> Cyclist with a Mirror







this one's for you ;-) they're usually holding maps, might have to do one with cyclist reading paper too!


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## classic33 (1 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> They could fit a plexiglass window to one side of the hub. It they were that good they'd find a way.


Why use seat tube motors then?


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## Dan B (1 Oct 2015)

classic33 said:


> Why use seat tube motors then?


Because there's not much space inside the rear stays


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## Drago (1 Oct 2015)

Dunno, but seat tube motors aren't Rohloff geared hubs, so I'n not sure how that correlates?


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## classic33 (1 Oct 2015)

Drago said:


> Dunno, but seat tube motors aren't Rohloff geared hubs, so I'n not sure how that correlates?


Two were found in bikes from this years TdF, where you don't see Rohloff geared bikes being used.
Mainly because their(hub gear) use isn't allowed.


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## cd365 (1 Oct 2015)

classic33 said:


> Two were found in bikes from this years TdF, where you don't see Rohloff geared bikes being used.
> Mainly because their(hub gear) use isn't allowed.


Link to a report?


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## classic33 (1 Oct 2015)

cd365 said:


> Link to a report?


No. Small piece in one of the cycling magazines. Checking brings up Froomes' bike being tested.


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## RedRider (1 Oct 2015)

TreeHuggery said:


> View attachment 105441
> 
> this one's for you ;-) they're usually holding maps, might have to do one with cyclist reading paper too!


Really like that, do you sell them and is that one from a recycled tax disc?


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## TreeHuggery (1 Oct 2015)

RedRider said:


> Really like that, do you sell them and is that one from a recycled tax disc?


hi yeah I call them the taxing rides collection ;-) I've only just finished that one today so its not on my website yet ....got a few on the website www.treehuggery.co.uk (as well as a "tickets please" collection which is people waiting at bus stops from old bus tickets (I found the tickets at a car boot sale)
feel free to private message me


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## Sara_H (1 Oct 2015)

Funnily enough, I have been asked three times in the last few weeks by ranty morards why I haven't got mirrors on my bike. When I've explained they've all done that infuriating thing of laughing as if they've been proved right. 
Never expected it on cycling forum though.


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