# Need a proper tourer. What should I get? And can you please all agree...



## TwoInTow (10 Apr 2011)

I need a tourer. I've done two tours on my _very_ nice hybrid/road type bike, but it's not right for a variety of reasons (including carbon front forks, so no front panniers).

I don't buy much for myself usually, so am prepared to treat myself. For me that would mean £500 for a new bike or, if there were _really really_ good reasons, maybe stretching it to £700. I don't need something that goes down rutted tracks in Vietnam - we do on-road/cycle track stuff in first world countries, really. I am lazy and unfit most of the time, so it has to have really good gearing! Apart from that I don't understand the technical component stuff - I can read specs on a website, and it means very little to me.

I have never used drops and only tried them once on my husband's road bike and felt incredibly unsafe - but I was on a bike that was too big, and it was a skitty little road bike and I only tried them once. If you all tell me that I _will_ get used to them and prefer them, I'll get drops.

So, can I please have very precise instructions on what to get?! I really don't feel any desire to think for myself here - I'm happy to do what you tell me.  

Oh, and I have a LBS but I don't think they stock much in the way of tourers. So I'm asking this in preparation so I can go in and ask them to order something in for me...


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## aberal (10 Apr 2011)

For your budget - try Revolution Country Explorer at the top end or its little brother for 500 quid the Country Traveller To be honest, if you can stretch to £700 do so - you would always regret not spending a piddling extra 200. These bikes nearly always get good reviews and are probably as good as you get for the money - so check out some reviews online, there's a few about. As far as I am aware, the rack is generally not the best, but its the kind of thing you can upgrade. As far as drop handlebars are concerned - for a tourer they are streets ahead of flat bars. They will give you 5-6 different riding positions and when you are touring, doing large distances, believe me, the ability to shift your hand position constantly is a major plus. If you have had a bad experience on a bike that was too big, can I offer friendly advice and suggest you forget that? Drops are as safe as a safe thing - you will ride with your hands on the hoods most of the time and brakes are within easy reach. Trust me.






But if I had a further bit of advice it would be to stretch your budget a bit further - to around the £1000 mark and consider something like the Kona Sutra which has a much better frame and wheels than the cheaper options. And a better frame and wheels spells extra comfort and durability, which matters on a tour. Having said that, the Edinburgh Coop bikes have Reynolds Steel frames which to be honest, are the bees knees. Amazing really that they are selling these bikes a these prices.


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## corshamjim (10 Apr 2011)

If it were me I'd go for either the Claud Butler Regent or the Dawes Vantage. I really wouldn't buy it without trying one first though, so if your lbs don't stock anything suitable I'd maybe think about going a bit further to find a shop that does.

I expect you will find drop bars on a touring bike which fits you much more comfortable than a sprightly road bike - but then again you might still dislike them.


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## aberal (10 Apr 2011)

Oh yeah, should have included the Dawes Horizon - just above your budget but a quality bike with years of pedigree, see here Really nice looking bike too. Personally I'd avoid the two mentioned above (no offence mate



) for the simple reason that they have aluminium frames. Cheap and lightweight certainly, but they will give a harsher ride than steel and if they get damaged/bent/broke - can't be fixed. Steel can be bent back into shape or welded. It's slightly heavier but generally more resilient and comfier.


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## HelenD123 (10 Apr 2011)

I'm torn as to what advice to give you about the drops. I have them on my Ultra Galaxy and felt incredibly nervous and unsafe with them to start with. When trying to brake from the hoods going downhill I couldn't press them hard enough to feel able to stop. To get into the drops I'd have to stop at the top of hills and move my hands down before setting off again! I was a bag of nerves on my first tour TBH. I was seriously thinking about converting the bike to straight bars when my boyfriend told me about flared drop bars. I got some On One Midge bars and haven't looked back. How far have you toured on flat bars? If you find them comfortable I wouldn't discount them. It would leave you more to spend on the rest of the bike as STIs are more expensive.


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## mcshroom (10 Apr 2011)

Another vote for the Vantage - as an owner of one. 

Good solid bike which has carried me 2700 miles including a bit of light off-roading and snow riding with nothing needing changing but brake pads, chains and one cassette. Basically it the same as the older Dawes Horizon before the Horizon moved to a steel frame. Also it's available for £420 if you don't mind having a 2010 version (which is as far as i can see the same as the £600 2011 version



)

The 2200 series shifters are efficient enough and the oryx brakes do stop you even if they aren't as strong as v-brakes. 

Drops were a bit scary to start with, but it is amazing how quickly you get used to them. Also a tourer is more upright than a racer so doesn't feel quite like your about to tip yourself over the handlebars all the time 

If you don't want drops, then look for a good, non-suspension hybrid and fit either bar ends or butterfly bars to it. I'd recommend drops but the best bike for you is the one you feel comfortable riding. I have also done a tour on a hybrid with a flat bar and bar ends and it was perfectly ok.


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## snorri (10 Apr 2011)

Drop bars are a personal choice, if you don't like them it doesn't stop the bike being good tourer if you choose something different.
Some of our UK fashionistas throw up their hands in horror at butterfly bars, but these offer a variety of handholds and are probably more popular than drop bars on tour bikes in mainland Europe.


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## andym (10 Apr 2011)

Hmm, I think you've been around on this forum to know that there's very little we all agree on (in fact I'd be a hard-pressed to think of anything, beyond of course that getting out and about on a bike is A Good Thing). 

And even if we all agree that doesn't mean it's right for you.

I think the best place to start would be what you like and don't like about your current bike. Are the problems with it so fundamental that they can't be fixed? You could for example fairly easily buy a pair of steel forks to replace the carbon ones, to take the first problem. You might also be able to buy a new frame and reuse many of your current bits.

Can you list the things that aren't right about your current bike? That should definitely form the basis for the wish-list for the next one - and help people give you advice.


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## TwoInTow (11 Apr 2011)

You're right, andy - I wasn't _really_ expecting anyone to agree! Still, you sometimes get 'another vote' for something, and if I had a few of those it would give me a starting point.

My current bike is just lovely - the only expensive thing I have ever bought myself! It's a Trek hybrid - but really close to the road-bike end of the spectrum, except that it has granny gears. It's light and smooth, and I can go up hills in it that I could only dream about on a less good bike! It has straight bars and bar ends, which have been fine for me, but because of the carbon front forks, I have only ever toured with it using a BOB trailer. Since we are always carrying the kids' gear as well as ours, there's no way at this point I could cut down to just rear panniers, but the number of times I've had to detach the trailer to get through a gate, heave it over the gate etc...  Its wheels have hardly any spokes too (don't ask me how many) so asking for trouble on rougher roads/tracks, I'm sure.

But I'm being spoilt here and I don't want to cannibalise this bike for a tourer. I love just taking it out for a ride in the country, on back lanes etc - I did that yesterday in the sunshine and it was heaven! So I'd rather just keep it as is, and splurge on a tourer.

The longest tour I've done on that bike was 330 miles. I felt comfortable in the upright position, although my bum got sorer than it has ever been and I had to buy a new saddle halfway! I have ordered a B17 to try out already, and will pick it up today. Hopefully that will do the trick. Apart from that there is nothing I don't like about my current bike. But it's not right for touring.

It sounds like it really is worth a try with the drops, and if I can't get over the shakiness, Helen's ideas will get me through.

So I'll go to the LBS today and start asking about Dawes, I think...


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## Barbelier (11 Apr 2011)

+1 for the Revolution Country Explorer.

Bought one for doing JOGLE last year and have done over 4,000 miles on it so far, without a single problem.
A cracking bike for the price.


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## roundisland (11 Apr 2011)

I brought a 2010 dawes galaxy like new condition off ebay for £390, I think its a superb bike. If you go the second user route making sure you get the correct size can be a bit of a problem.

If the dawes had not come along the *Revolution Country Traveller *as recommeneded by others was going to be my choice I have read so many good reviews about them.


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## PpPete (11 Apr 2011)

Galaxy has been the benchmark tourer for decades, but expensive new. Buying second hand, unless you know exactly what to look for, is always going to be a little risky.

Very adaptable bikes though. Love my 1988 model - I've spent as much as the original new price (£400) on updating it with modern componentry, but it's now almost the equal in terms of spec now of a modern Ultra Galaxy. I restored a couple of older ones a couple of years ago, for the my children to do their JoGLE.


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## Bokonon (11 Apr 2011)

I have a ~6 year old Dawes Horizon with an aluminium frame, so it is about equivalent to the current Dawes Vantage. It is a good bike, but after a long day in the saddle the stiffness and harsh ride of the frame does become apparent. If I was buying a cheap touring bike again, I would spend the extra for an entry level steel frame - if buying new then both the Revolution Country Explorer and the current Dawes Horizon look like good options.


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## TwoInTow (11 Apr 2011)

Hmmm... Just rang LBS and they were useless! Apart from not having the saddle that I ordered 8 days ago (and was promised within 2-3 days), the guy on the phone said he couldn't remember the last time they sold a tourer, and he couldn't get a Dawes, Kona, Revolution etc etc.

So now I need a specialist - either online or down south somewhere. I'm in Winchester, so London and Southampton are close enough (Southampton much easier). Online is fine except I'm concerned about fit...

Suggestions welcome!


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## aberal (11 Apr 2011)

Really, you need to try your bike for size before you commit to buy. The Edinburgh Bike Coop only have stores as far south as Sheffield so that probably counts them out. The Dawes website has a dealer locator here so there should be at least a couple of dealers in your vicinity.


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## funnymummy (11 Apr 2011)

I love my Dawes Horizon, Spent ages choosing the right bike, tested all different kinds/styles before finaly settling on her - I was a little terrified first time I rode her, having been used to riding in a much more upright position for years, and it took some getting used to being on the drops too, but once over the initial nerves & wobbles It was fabulous. 
I have covered many miles & loved touring on her - Sadly though I am now selling her & reverting back to a flat barred bike, after an accident last year (sliced my thumb in half & needed surgery to repair it) I have suffered from carpal tunnel & limited use of my left thumb, I can't use the drops for long & spend most of my rides on the cross/flat part of the bars, which means if I need to brake quickly I am kind of stuffed!!


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## jay clock (11 Apr 2011)

I live in Winchester too! The two local LBSs are actually quite good, but agreed they will not go to much effort in getting in models they dont stock.

Having had a Dawes Galaxy equivalent I have moved to a flat barred tourer. Koga Miyata. Now it is well above £700, but you are welcome to have a look/ a chat, to get some ideas. My partner has Specialized Sirrus which she has also used for touring and it was fine.

It is only the Brits who have this "must have drop bars" attitude to tourers. The massive disadvantage is the brakes are feeble compared with v brakes (unless you go for some "clever" solution to allow V brakes with STI levers, or disks)

I am in Orams Arbour. Ping me a PM if you want a chat/ have a look etc

Jay


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## HelenD123 (11 Apr 2011)

TwoInTow said:


> I have ordered a B17 to try out already, and will pick it up today.






TwoInTow said:


> Hmmm... Just rang LBS and they were useless! Apart from not having the saddle that I ordered 8 days ago (and was promised within 2-3 days),



I think you need a B17S, the ladies version. My Ultra Galaxy came with a B17 which was comfortable to start with but really not after I'd changed the set up to stop my wrists hurting. It's now on my commuter and fine for short distances. Maybe you could change your order as they haven't got it in yet?


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## HelenD123 (11 Apr 2011)

Is there an Evans near you? They could probably get you a Dawes to try.


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## TwoInTow (11 Apr 2011)

Helen, you're right. I did order a B17S - I just forgot to type it.

Thanks to aberal's link, I've found a Dawes dealer in Basingstoke, and rang them this afternoon. They just got a whole lot of stuff in and are setting it up, they say, so I'll go in about a week and check it all out.

(Thanks for your experiences, funnymummy - encouraging!)


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## MarkF (11 Apr 2011)

TwoInTow said:


> I need a tourer. I've done two tours on my _very_ nice hybrid/road type bike, but it's not right for a variety of reasons (including carbon front forks, so no front panniers).



What's made you give up on the hybrid? Just asking, mine got me to Barcelona and it also has carbon forks. I bought a Dawes Horizon tourer to replace it but, surprisingly, I found the hybrid more comfortable over long distances. I had a big bag on the front, at least one and a half panniers worth of space and the weight (over the front) helped the handling. 

I'd love another tourer but next time, when I can aford one, it'd be a made-to-measure bike. The Dawes Vantage looks incredible value. Good luck.


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## funnymummy (11 Apr 2011)

TwoInTow said:


> Helen, you're right. I did order a B17S - I just forgot to type it.
> 
> (Thanks for your experiences, funnymummy - encouraging!)



 Can't beat a Brookes, i've had one on my MummyBike for years & it's so comfy, kept moaning that needed to get one for my Dawes, my bubs bought me one for Christmas - it'll be getting moved to my new bike on Friday


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## PpPete (11 Apr 2011)

TwoInTow said:


> Hmmm... Just rang LBS and they were useless! Apart from not having the saddle that I ordered 8 days ago (and was promised within 2-3 days), the guy on the phone said he couldn't remember the last time they sold a tourer, and he couldn't get a Dawes, Kona, Revolution etc etc.
> 
> So now I need a specialist - either online or down south somewhere. I'm in Winchester, so London and Southampton are close enough (Southampton much easier). Online is fine except I'm concerned about fit...
> 
> Suggestions welcome!



IIRC Portswood Cycles are Dawes dealer in Southampton. Walking distance from StDenys station. Although I've heard they can be a snooty if you on limited budget.

IME experience one the most helpful local LBS is CycleWorld in Romsey.


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## TwoInTow (11 Apr 2011)

MarkF said:


> What's made you give up on the hybrid?



It's like a road-bike, basically, but with granny gears. It has about 3 spokes in each wheel, so I figure I'm asking for trouble over the longer term. There are no screwhole things on the front forks for front panniers. For now, I'm carrying most of the children's luggage as well as mine, so there is no possibility of not having front panniers - I need all the carrying space I can get. The wheels are narrow ones, so no possibility of going off-road except in the driest of weather on the smoothest of paths, and I think even some bike tracks would be a problem if they got muddy... But most of all, I love my hybrid the way it is for just going out for a ride, and I'm being precious and don't want to cannibalise it or compromise its lovely feel for now! 

(I know I sound really spoilt, but I really _don't_ spend money on myself - except now I've started cycling!  Bad sign, hey?)


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## TwoInTow (11 Apr 2011)

jay clock said:


> I live in Winchester too!



Yes, I know! If you recall, you were generous enough to map out some rides for me around Winchester last year... Sadly, I've only used one of them because it got wet and dark and cold, and I've been working too hard. But I launched out on one of yours on Sunday - although that particular one was too long for me in my unfit state and I cut it in half! 

Oram's Arbour's just up near the hospital, isn't it? I'd love to have a chat sometime. I'll probably pop out to Basingstoke in a week or two to look at some Dawes, so maybe after that when I have some specifics to discuss? You'll have to talk down to me, though, as I am a total novice and very unfit and non-technical!!


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Apr 2011)

At least do yourself the favour of phoning Edinburgh Bike Co-Op to speak to them about sizing for their steel framed tourer. They are, ime, easy to deal with over the phone, will put your mind at rest over what size you need, etc., etc..

I've bought two bikes from them sight unseen by this method, without problem, and I live in Sussex.

There isn't much wrong with their aluminium framed bikes btw, a modern ali design does not have to be harsh at all, and my ali framed country explorer, which pre-dates the current steel model, is fine for all day every day loaded riding at touring pace.


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## willem (11 Apr 2011)

My personal preference is for drop bars. The best not quite budget drop bar tourer in my view is the Surly Long Haul Trucker, with 26 inch wheels. The Thorn Sherpa is a more expensive version of the same idea. The LHT is a really good bike, with sensible but often neglected things like size specific cranks length, ditto brake levers etc. It is over your budget, but a very good buy.
With kids, I might go for a straight bar tourer, however. Pushing along a young child riding next to you with one arm while you are holding your handlebar with the other (this is what you have to do in real life) is not fun with a drop bar. Been there, done that. Similarly, if you ever want to hitch a trailer bike to your bike, a more upright position and a straight bar will be much better. My advise for a straight bar tourer would be the German Fahrradmanufaktur T400, with 26 inch wheels (get the men's version for a better frame, but make sure it is not too long). It comes in two versions at two price points. The cheaper of the two is in your ballpark, but the more expensive of the two is much more value for money. You can get them in the UK.
I am sorry both suggestions are at the higher end of what you might have in mind. Below a certain price point bikes don't get that much cheaper, but they do get a lot worse, I am afraid
hope this helps a bit.
Willem


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## Fab Foodie (11 Apr 2011)

funnymummy said:


> I love my Dawes Horizon, Spent ages choosing the right bike, tested all different kinds/styles before finaly settling on her - I was a little terrified first time I rode her, having been used to riding in a much more upright position for years, and it took some getting used to being on the drops too, but once over the initial nerves & wobbles It was fabulous.
> I have covered many miles & loved touring on her - Sadly though I am now selling her & reverting back to a flat barred bike, after an accident last year (sliced my thumb in half & needed surgery to repair it) I have suffered from carpal tunnel & limited use of my left thumb, I can't use the drops for long & spend most of my rides on the cross/flat part of the bars, which means if I need to brake quickly I am kind of stuffed!!




NOOOOO
Don't sell.
Just put flat bars on the Horizon, or Butterfly bars ... if you really loved her you would.


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## Baggy (11 Apr 2011)

Fab Foodie said:


> NOOOOO
> Don't sell.
> Just put flat bars on the Horizon, or Butterfly bars ... if you really loved her you would.


Or...you could have a pair of Cane Creek/Tektro Bar Top levers fitted, as pictured here !

I'm another happy Dawes Horizon owner (a 2003 steel version), though I had to change the bars to a narrower pair as i found the frame a little bit long. It's given me over 10,000 miles of reliable, stable riding.


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## TwoInTow (11 Apr 2011)

Right, lots of good advice.

Willem, one of your comments made me think - about the LHT having size-specific components. I am small (5' 1"/156cm) and have small hands and small fingers. I have had trouble in the past in various contexts with my hands being too small to use things that other people find no problem. I know on kids' bikes it's important to have brake levers positioned for little hands etc. Does that apply to bikes too? Should I be thinking about this, or am I imagining problems where there are none?

Truth be told I _could _afford the £1K for a serious tourer, but not without a bit of pain. Most of all, I would have trouble justifying it to myself. It's so much money! And I work long hours 6.5 days of the week most of the year, so don't get out much except when actually on holiday (although I do get good holidays)... On the other hand, I invested in a Hilleberg test which was outrageously expensive, largely on your advice, Willem, and am so glad I did. It makes a real difference comfort-wise, compared to the alternative I got for the kids, so I can be persuaded to spend money.

My youngest is 9 now and just heading into the world of longer rides on a geared bike, so I think I can leave behind the days of pushing them along/pulling the tag-along. So it does sound like drops are worth a try.


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## Baggy (11 Apr 2011)

TwoInTow said:


> Willem, one of your comments made me think - about the LHT having size-specific components. I am small (5' 1"/156cm) and have small hands and small fingers. I have had trouble in the past in various contexts with my hands being too small to use things that other people find no problem. I know on kids' bikes it's important to have brake levers positioned for little hands etc. Does that apply to bikes too? Should I be thinking about this, or am I imagining problems where there are none?


No, you're not imagining it...that was another reason I changed the bars on my bike - to bring the levers closer to my hands. I'm 5'4" and one of my bikes has 165mm cranks, on 700c wheels I definitely get less toe overlap so that's another thing to consider.

I do know of someone about your height who has a Long Haul Trucker and thinks it's incredibly comfortable - and they're very nice frames.


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## corshamjim (11 Apr 2011)

Baggy said:


> I'm 5'4" and one of my bikes has 165mm cranks, on 700c wheels I definitely get less toe overlap so that's another thing to consider.



That's a good point. I've been thinking I'd prefer shorter cranks, and that's another benefit!


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## willem (11 Apr 2011)

Absolutely. My wife has 160 mm cranks. Anyway, I think if you are short, 26 inch wheels are the way to go anyhow.
Willem


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## funnymummy (12 Apr 2011)

Fab Foodie & Baggy... Thnak you for those suggestions,
Baggy - I had brakes like that on my first road bike a couple of decades ago..and they were good , but i would need thicker bars too as I can't close my left hand as tight as needed to hold onto narrow bars
Fab Foodie - My LBS have made several tweaks to the bike already, I did ask about butterfly bars, but they said it would mean my brakes & gear would need altering too.

TBH - I don't get to do much solo touring these days, my children go with me now & I can't tow my sons trailer on the Dawes as it pulls on my bcak too much, so I end up using my MummyBike all the time now. I've ridden in the odd Sportive on her & have a couple more lined up over the summer, but it seemed a shame to alter the Dawes so much for such little use, thought i'd sell her so someone else could have as much fun as I have had with her, I'm getting a Sirrus Elite on Friday for the odd occasions i do get out on my own & just want to ride fast!


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## Baggy (12 Apr 2011)

funnymummy said:


> Fab Foodie & Baggy... Thnak you for those suggestions,
> Baggy - I had brakes like that on my first road bike a couple of decades ago..and they were good , but i would need thicker bars too as I can't close my left hand as tight as needed to hold onto narrow bars


They work more like the brakes on a flat barred bike - they pull in towards you and give much more progressive braking than the old "suicide levers" that you had to pull right up to the bars to feel much effect! 

If you've got a new bike on the way I can see why you might not want to faff round though...


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## andym (13 Apr 2011)

Yikes! what's with the magenta?


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## andym (13 Apr 2011)

jay clock said:


> It is only the Brits who have this "must have drop bars" attitude to tourers. The massive disadvantage is the brakes are feeble compared with v brakes (unless you go for some "clever" solution to allow V brakes with STI levers, or disks)



Yes but it you go for bar end shifters (which you have other advantages) there are levers that work very well with drop bars and v-brakes (there are Dia-Compe 287Vs and another make that are half the price and suppsed to be kust as good, but I can't remember the name).


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## willem (14 Apr 2011)

Tektro, and they are even better than the Diacompe 287V.
Willem


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## jay clock (14 Apr 2011)

horses for courses! I have STI levers on two road bikes, and MTB triggers on my tourer. I could not bear the thought of not having the changers immediately to hand. Bar end levers will rare;y be near my hands as I rarely ride on the drops, and even less so on a tourer when I had one with drop bars. But each to his own.

In terms of comfort for long laden rides I have no problems with my flat bars and ergo bar ends.


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## Iainj837 (15 Apr 2011)

I have 2 touring bikes I have a Raleigh Pioneer Venture with drops handle bars and rear carrier and a Dawes Karakum with butterfly bars and front and rear carriers.

Iain


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## andym (15 Apr 2011)

jay clock said:


> <br>horses for courses!&nbsp;&nbsp;I have STI levers on two road bikes, and MTB triggers on my tourer.&nbsp;&nbsp;I could not bear the thought of not having the changers immediately to hand.&nbsp;&nbsp;Bar end levers will rare;y be near my hands as I rarely ride on the drops, and even less so on a tourer when I had one with drop bars.&nbsp;&nbsp;But each to his own.


<div><br></div><div>I am currently touring with a flat-barred bike with bar end shifters converted to thumbies. So maybe I have &nbsp;a foot in both camps....</div><div><br></div><div>I guess if maintaining a constant cadence is important to you, and you are frequently changing gears then barend shifters would be a pain in the proverbial - but on the other hand if you are like me you probably only change gears at the bottom of hills and at the top (or on the way up if things start getting a bit much).</div><div><br></div><div>I always argue against the people who claim that you can only tour with drop bars, but equally I can't think of any fundamental showstopper reasons why you shouldn't/couldn't ride with drops if that's what you prefer. Each to his own as you say.</div><div><br></div><div>Willem - yep 'Tektro' was the brand name i couldn't remember.<div><div><br><br>

</div></div>

</div>


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## andym (15 Apr 2011)

What happened there?


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## billflat12 (15 Apr 2011)

know they are heavier but a Quality "4bolt" adjustable stem paired with ergo barends gives exrtra options with flat bars, (assuming your handy with an allenkey)


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## TwoInTow (4 Jun 2011)

OK, I'm back on this topic after a bit of a break. Got swamped in work and also had to organise the logistics for the planned summer tour, which is mid-July.

I've decided I'd like to get a Surly LHT, but am having trouble finding somewhere to buy it from! Ideally, I'd like to go there and be fitted, but that may not be possible. I have done some google searches, and tried the Surly website for suppliers, but without much success.

So what's the best way to go about this? I live in Winchester. I leave for this tour on 9 July. Can I get it done in time, do you think?!


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## jags (5 Jun 2011)

jeez you still haven't bought a bike your cutting things very fine as in 
getting used to the feel of the bike loaded and unloaded..
get yourself a thorn tourer of the peg either the sherpa or club tour load her up and enjoy your tour trouble free.


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## Holdsworth (5 Jun 2011)

I haven't had any problems so far with my Revolution Country Traveller, I ideally would've gone for the steel-framed Explorer but my budget wouldn't stretch that far. I have been rather pleased with it up to now and I am slowly adding bits and pieces to it to allow for touring come this summer. I can only imagine that the Explorer is better and is more comfortable but I wouldn't know unless I compared the two side by side.


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## bigjim (6 Jun 2011)

Ever think there is too much choice out there. All this agonising. I remember [being an old git] going to school, out for the day, shopping, taking mums laundry to the Bendix, YHA weekends, 2 week tours etc, all on the same bike.


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