# Why be efficient?



## onlyhuman (26 May 2009)

I'm cycling for exercise, to get fit. I understand that clipping your feet to the pedals is supposed to increase your efficiency. But doesn't that mean you will have to ride further to get the same amount of exercise? 

If you are cycling non-competitively, is there any good reason for pedal clips?


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## Dayvo (26 May 2009)

Welcome to the CC forum, onlyhuman!

Watch this for a concise explanation of the benefits of going clipless.

http://www.ehow.com/video_2358284_cycling-shoes-clips.html

Enjoy the forum!


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## onlyhuman (26 May 2009)

Hi Dayvo,

There's some terminological confusion here. The guy in your video about going clipless spends most of his time talking about clips! 

For the sake of clarity, my question is about the reason for using any kind of attachment between the foot and the pedal. I don't use any kind of clip. The guy in the video talks about how clips will increase your efficiency. My question is, why would I want to increase my efficiency, if my goal is exercise?


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## Sittingduck (26 May 2009)

So you can go faster and further for added enjoyment and benefit?


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## Dayvo (26 May 2009)

You get a smoother pedaling action; your foot is fixed at a comfortable spot on the pedal eliminating the risk of your foot slipping off the pedal on downhills or concerted efforts going uphill.

More effort goes into the pedal, as opposed being 'lost' in the soft sole of a shoe/training shoe.

The cycling shoe (whichever your chosen preference for cycling is) is made for that purpose, as opposed to a trainer that is not supportive, and will get very wet in wet conditions. 

Confusingly, the clipless pedal is called so as it refers to the lack of an external toe clip (cage), but not to be confused with platform pedals without toe clips.

Hope that helps a bit.


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## palinurus (26 May 2009)

If your goal is fitness cycling then clipless pedals make a lot of sense.

For shopping and other utility riding around town etc. they are unnecessary.

If you become more efficient you can still get the same amount of exercise in a given time by going faster.

In the UK they are called clipless pedals- since they replaced traditional toe clips and cleats. Americans call them clip-in pedals, which makes a bit more sense to me.


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## fido (26 May 2009)

I cycled clipless for years but these days just wear sturdy trainers with flatties. Admittedly the main reason for this is the fact that most of my riding is commuting/ general transport and it was a pain in the arse carrying spare shoes.There's a point here somewhere...Oh yeah - My daily commute is a 26 mile round trip and I honestly prefer my flat pedals these days to riding clipless. So I guess I'm saying there's probably no need to go clipless unless you wanted to.


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## Jim_Noir (26 May 2009)

I prefer flats and my running shoes to cycle in, that said I have never tried the clipless ones. I know a guy who broke his shin bone coming of his bike with clipless, so it puts me off a bit.


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## Stig-OT-Dump (26 May 2009)

Harking back to your original post, the benefits are that you can use more muscle groups going clipless. 

Without clips your cycling relies largely on your quads, straightening your leg as you push down on the pedal. With clips you can also use hamstrings and glutes as you "pedal in circles" and get benefit from actively contracting your leg. 

So, go clipless, get a more complete workout.


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## onlyhuman (26 May 2009)

Dayvo said:


> You get a smoother pedaling action; your foot is fixed at a comfortable spot on the pedal eliminating the risk of your foot slipping off the pedal on downhills or concerted efforts going uphill.
> 
> More effort goes into the pedal, as opposed being 'lost' in the soft sole of a shoe/training shoe.
> 
> ...



Thanks Dayvo, 

I have been reading a bit about clips, and I see people talking about "if your knee hurts here, move the clip this way" and so on. But my feet and knees are already comfortable. I ride on disused railways and across country, I'm not sure I want to be fastened onto the bike. My feet don't fly off the pedals very often!

If some effort is lost in the soles of my trainers, and in all the other ways I am inefficient, then I am getting more exercise. 

I'm not convinced yet.


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## Stig-OT-Dump (26 May 2009)

Then you need to feel the difference you get when, as you go up a hill, you start to drive your knees towards the handlebars and get that extra spurt of pace. You become more economic because of the range of muscle groups involved and because you spread the work over the full pedal cycle and not just a "chop" stroke - not because you eliminate trainer sole compression.

To be honest though, if you want to maximise your benefit from being on a bike, then you need to think about what you are doing when you rde. Do you chuck in short bursts of really high effort? Research on High Intensity Training suggests this can work wonders (and it's easier clipless). If you do intervals, going clipless will probablu help the quality. Low intensity recovery rides or long slow rides to recruit muscle fibres? Efficient is better.


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## Dan B (26 May 2009)

onlyhuman said:


> If you are cycling non-competitively, is there any good reason for pedal clips?


Because they're more fun. If you're cycling to get fit _and you don't enjoy it_, really, you might as well take up running instead.


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## Banjo (27 May 2009)

onlyhuman said:


> Thanks Dayvo,
> 
> I have been reading a bit about clips, and I see people talking about "if your knee hurts here, move the clip this way" and so on. But my feet and knees are already comfortable. I ride on disused railways and across country, I'm not sure I want to be fastened onto the bike. My feet don't fly off the pedals very often!
> 
> ...



I have had similar thoughts to this concerning choice of bike. My bike is a fairly heavy hybrid with flat pedals panniers and other junk attatched an hours riding on this must burn more calories than an hours riding on a lightweight flier?


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## Joe (27 May 2009)

Light fast bikes with clipless are more fun, fact. 
They also generally have gears which you can use to magically make things harder, negating any extra workout you'd be getting from your tank and at the same time making you faster. Did I mention it's more fun?


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## tyred (27 May 2009)

I don't think they're absolutely necessary. I do ride with toe clips on straps on my SS road bike and I feel they do offer an advantage as I can pedal a very fast cadence in my relatively low gear and keep my feet on the pedals. On my geared bikes, I don't see the need as my normal pedalling style is a relatively low cadence in the higher gears and I have no trouble keeping my feet on the pedals. It also allows you to position the feet wherever you find comfortable and you can ride in any footwear, even wellingtons! I have no imtemtions of changing to clipless. 

Have a look at this: http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse


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## onlyhuman (27 May 2009)

Stig-OT-Dump said:


> Then you need to feel the difference you get when, as you go up a hill, you start to drive your knees towards the handlebars and get that extra spurt of pace. You become more economic because of the range of muscle groups involved and because you spread the work over the full pedal cycle and not just a "chop" stroke - not because you eliminate trainer sole compression.
> 
> To be honest though, if you want to maximise your benefit from being on a bike, then you need to think about what you are doing when you rde. Do you chuck in short bursts of really high effort? Research on High Intensity Training suggests this can work wonders (and it's easier clipless). If you do intervals, going clipless will probablu help the quality. Low intensity recovery rides or long slow rides to recruit muscle fibres? Efficient is better.



Hi Stig,

I found this very persuasive: http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse


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## byegad (27 May 2009)

Welcome onlyhuman.

I suspect your name is inaccurate and quite a few posters will claim to be human too.


Not me you understand.


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## onlyhuman (27 May 2009)

Joe said:


> Light fast bikes with clipless are more fun, fact.
> They also generally have gears which you can use to magically make things harder, negating any extra workout you'd be getting from your tank and at the same time making you faster. Did I mention it's more fun?



It may be a fact that they are more fun for you Joe, but not everybody agrees. 

I don't really see what you are getting at with the rest of your comment. Heavier bikes without clips also generally have gears which you can use to make things harder, mechanically rather than magically. And I am already going pretty much as fast as I can on the disused wagonways and tracks where I cycle, and if my bike was superlight I'd be worrying about damaging it.


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## palinurus (27 May 2009)

Interesting article there. I'd generally say there's no real need for clipless pedals outside of racing and training for same. I've toured on flats, it works fine. Used them on some of my commute bikes too (although now I've gone all clipless, but that's mainly because I train after work a couple of days per week). It's your bike, use the pedals you want.


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## Plax (27 May 2009)

Nobody has mentioned the rain - I found clipless pedals a revelation in the rain. No more did I have to endure the pedal slamming into my shin after my foot had slipped off!


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## Crackle (27 May 2009)

onlyhuman said:


> Hi Stig,
> 
> I found this very persuasive: http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse



Assuming you are not on the wind-up and right now I suspect you are, then the article is a bit rubbish. I'm not a competitive cyclist and I find huge advantages in clipless, though strangely not much advantage over clipped pedals and some disadvantages but I'd take either over flats.


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## fido (27 May 2009)

I totally agree with the point about clipless in the rain - your contact with the bike is for more confidence-inspiring. I always ride clipless when off-roading for the same reason.I still prefer my flatties and trainers for commutes and semi-serious bimbles though, for many of the reasons stated in that article.


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## palinurus (27 May 2009)

I didn't enjoy riding my Brompton in the rain for that very reason, the right hand pedal was dead slippy. I found I adjusted my riding to suit however and never managed to slip my foot off unexpectedly.


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## montage (27 May 2009)

Clipless lets you go faster for a given effort or go for less effort at a given speed. Simple.


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## onlyhuman (28 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> Assuming you are not on the wind-up and right now I suspect you are, then the article is a bit rubbish. I'm not a competitive cyclist and I find huge advantages in clipless, though strangely not much advantage over clipped pedals and some disadvantages but I'd take either over flats.



Would you like to say what you thought was wrong with the article? It made a lot of sense to me. I don't think I need the advantages that clips offer. I found clipped pedals nothing but a nuisance for the kind of cycling I do. I don't see why I have a need for cycling shoes. His argument seems quite persuasive there. I don't experience problems cycling in trainers or sandals. My feet don't feel like they need more support. I like to be able to move the point of contact around like he says, to spread the load around.


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## mickle (28 May 2009)

'Clip-less' is a misnomer. Can we use 'clip-in' instead?


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## Radius (28 May 2009)

It means 'without clips and straps', as I'm sure you're aware; but yes, it is slightly confusing.


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## mickle (28 May 2009)

Innit.


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## jimboalee (28 May 2009)

mickle said:


> 'Clip-less' is a misnomer. Can we use 'clip-in' instead?



Call them 'Cleated pedals & shoes'.

The No. 1 reason for cleated shoes on to the pedals is as Plax implies - STABILITY.

The No. 1 reason for cycling shoes to be stiff is PRESSURE DISTRIBUTION.

The ruling for the X America jaunt was IMHO, to decrease the number of 'slipping' injuries, as mentioned by Plax.

The No. 2 reason for cleated shoes on to the pedals is 'They don't lift off when you agressively pull the shoe up on the upstroke' 

The No. 3 reason for cleated shoes on to the pedals is 'you can operate a smoother action with a little bit of pulling on the upstroke'.


Rant over.


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## jimboalee (28 May 2009)

You can, if you wish, be very INEFFICIENT when using cleated shoes on the pedals.

What you have to do is not push the pedal down on the downstroke and not pull the pedal up on the upstroke.

If you practice this technique long enough, you'll fall over sideways.


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## Joe (28 May 2009)

onlyhuman said:


> It may be a fact that they are more fun for you Joe, but not everybody agrees.
> 
> I don't really see what you are getting at with the rest of your comment. Heavier bikes without clips also generally have gears which you can use to make things harder, mechanically rather than magically. And I am already going pretty much as fast as I can on the disused wagonways and tracks where I cycle, and if my bike was superlight I'd be worrying about damaging it.


All I'm saying is that inneffecieny is not a good thing!
"But doesn't that mean you will have to ride further to get the same amount of exercise?"
Maybe, but you can get the same workout on a nicer bike in the same time, you will have just gone further and faster. A good thing!
I'm guessing you don't load your bike down with bricks for a better workout?


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## Dan B (28 May 2009)

jimboalee said:


> The No. 2 reason for cleated shoes on to the pedals is 'They don't lift off when you agressively pull the shoe up on the upstroke'


That should read "they don't _usuall_y lift off ..."

When they do (low tension, worn cleat, etc) it may come as a big surprise. I accidentally kicked my front wheel hard while pulling away at a roundabout last week, and later that night realised I'd ridden home with a wheel so far out of true it stopped against the brake block on each revolution.

I *thought* it was a fierce headwind ...


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## Bill Gates (30 May 2009)

I started riding with clips and toe straps and shoes with plates that slotted on to the pedal . When I commuted the strap on my left pedal was not tightened so I could lift my shoe off the pedal without bending down to release the strap if I need to stop quickly. 

The effectiveness of riding with clipless and toeclips with straps is exactly the same except there is much less mucking about with clipless pedals, although the cleats of some manufactureres wear out quite quickly compared to others. Certainly if your pedalling technique invloves dragging the foot upwards at the bottom of the stroke then you need the security of fastening your foot on to the pedal. 

Personally I wouldn't want to get out of the saddle and dance on the pedals while worrying if my foot was going to slip off the pedal or not.

The picture shows me racing a 50 mile TT with clips and straps in 1980.


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## jimboalee (30 May 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> I started riding with clips and toe straps and shoes with plates that slotted on to the pedal . When I commuted the strap on my left pedal was not tightened so I could lift my shoe off the pedal without bending down to release the strap if I need to stop quickly.
> 
> The effectiveness of riding with clipless and toeclips with straps is exactly the same except there is much less mucking about with clipless pedals, although the cleats of some manufactureres wear out quite quickly compared to others. Certainly if your pedalling technique invloves dragging the foot upwards at the bottom of the stroke then you need the security of fastening your foot on to the pedal.
> 
> ...



Hey Bill, do you think you could keep up with Steve Jobs?


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## Bill Gates (30 May 2009)

jimboalee said:


> Hey Bill, do you think you could keep up with Steve Jobs?





?


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## montage (30 May 2009)

Onlyhuman .....if you really want to be inefficient to help boost your fitness, then find a long piece of rope and a tyre. Attatch the rope to the tyre, and then to your bike and proceed to drag it round you usual routes.


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## stoatsngroats (30 May 2009)

onlyhuman said:


> I'm not convinced yet.



Me neither....

I cycle for pleasure/fitness, but not competition, so speed and efficiency are not parameters for my cycling enjoyment.

I have a spare pair of SPD pedals, and on a number of occasions, have wondered whether to 'invest' in road-cycling shoes.

2 things stop me.....

The first, unfortunately, is budget....everytime I have a spare £50, the wife, or daughter, or dog, (or a combination of all 3!) have a greater need for the cash!

The second is the question, "Do I really NEED them?", and I've managed to complete rides of 60+ miles on 4 occasions this last year without them. I'm looking to do 100+ very soon; I understand the science which people quote regarding the benefit of clipless, but, still I'm not convinced....

HTH


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## palinurus (31 May 2009)

You don't need them.

I guess few cyclists really need them. Cyclists with the use of only one leg do, track cyclists do (you don't want to be forever slipping your feet off the pedals there), road racers do (similarly, although without the risk of churning pedals whacking the shins'n'ankles) and cyclocross riders find them very useful (slippy mud combined with short steep climbs).


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## jimboalee (1 Jun 2009)

Bill Gates said:


> ?



Steve Jobs, co founder and Cheif Executive Officer of Apple Computer Inc, Infinite Loop, Cupertino, California buys his bikes and kit from Palo Alto Cycles.

He's quite handy on a bike BTW.


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## HLaB (27 Jun 2020)

Rather than create a new thread I thought I'd search the forum after I found this:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Jun 2020)

onlyhuman said:


> If some effort is lost in the soles of my trainers, and in all the other ways I am inefficient, then I am getting more exercise.



Nope just means less of your effort is being translated into forward motion when using flats.


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## MntnMan62 (27 Jun 2020)

onlyhuman said:


> I'm cycling for exercise, to get fit. I understand that clipping your feet to the pedals is supposed to increase your efficiency. But doesn't that mean you will have to ride further to get the same amount of exercise?
> 
> If you are cycling non-competitively, is there any good reason for pedal clips?



Well, it means you will ride faster and you will ride farther. But it also will give you the ability to improve your riding technique and set you up to be able to join group rides, for fitness. Part of the fun is watching your own improvement and clipless pedals will help you enjoy your rides more. But you should do what works best for you.


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## Venod (27 Jun 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Nope just means less of your effort is being translated into forward motion when using flats.


<
He may have figured this out since 2009.


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## HLaB (27 Jun 2020)

Venod said:


> <
> He may have figured this out since 2009.


My fault



HLaB said:


> Rather than create a new thread I thought I'd search the forum after I found this:
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE


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