# Theft on trains



## swansonj (22 Dec 2017)

I see Paul Tuohy (CTC boss) had his Brompton stolen while stashed behind his seat on a train. I am an occasional not regular Brompton train user but I have wondered about the security of leaving a Brompton in the door area of commuter stock while seated, or even more so in the luggage areas at the ends of intercity carriages. 

What do you more frequent users do?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (22 Dec 2017)

Cheap lock through the luggage bars


----------



## ianrauk (22 Dec 2017)

Cafe lock everytime


----------



## jay clock (22 Dec 2017)

My neighbour had his nicked on the Winchester to Waterloo line. Only stops at Woking. The fast trains only have the option of leaving them in the bike area/door area - no space behind the seats in the main carriages. I keep an avid eye open and usually get up and stand by the bike in any stations. I will think about a light lock though


----------



## GrumpyGregry (22 Dec 2017)

When I did, cable lock to part of train structure.

BTP tell our local cycling forum such thefts are commonplace on the London - Brighton and London - Arun Valley lines.


----------



## Racing roadkill (22 Dec 2017)

If I ever have to ‘train’ the bike, I sit somewhere near it, and make sure I’m looking at it, when the train is stopped, at whichever station we’re at. I’ve never had one nicked yet. It would be very easy to stop anyone at most train stations, because of the ticket barriers, at most stations.


----------



## NorthernDave (22 Dec 2017)

Just an occasional train user with the bike, but I always stay with it. Seldom do a journey of more than 40 minutes to an hour and Northern or TPX trains normally make it easy to stand with the bike.


----------



## robjh (22 Dec 2017)

User said:


> In clear view at all times.


I no longer know if we're just talking about folders, but supposing we've moved onto all bikes, then watching them gets harder when you have to store them in things like this, at the end of a carriage





In cases like this I try and sit within view of the nearest exit onto the platform, and check at each station that no-one is wheeling my bike away. I would have to react quickly if they were though. Not a perfect system, but I haven't had any losses so far.


----------



## mjr (22 Dec 2017)

Lock it to the train (and fark any train company that says it's against their rules, but don't block any exits) or stand/sit by it.

No comment on this being a metaphor for CTC leadership, then?


----------



## swansonj (22 Dec 2017)

mjr said:


> ...
> 
> No comment on this being a metaphor for CTC leadership, then?


I am grudgingly forced to admit that I was moderately impressed that he uses a Brompton.


----------



## alicat (22 Dec 2017)

Used to use, I think you mean.

I'll get me coat...


----------



## CopperBrompton (23 Dec 2017)

If not next to me, then cafe lock and within sight, being alert at stations.


----------



## theclaud (23 Dec 2017)

CopperBrompton said:


> If not next to me, then cafe lock and within sight, being alert at stations.


Yours is a bit more eye-catching than the average Brompton, mind.


----------



## srw (24 Dec 2017)

swansonj said:


> What do you more frequent users do?


Live in a more honest part of the country.


----------



## srw (24 Dec 2017)

Chiltern class 165 stock has a useful between-seat space in its quiet zone - always assuming it's not full of Brompton from further out. On class 168 stock (on the rare occasions I have to use it) it gets left in the lobby. On the underground it sits next to my seat. When I used to use SWT regularly I either had it next to my seat (on the suburban trains) or sat right next to the lobby (on the long-distance train).

I've managed 21 years without a theft, and I've never carried a lock of any kind on my Brompton, so I must be doing something right.


----------



## ianrauk (24 Dec 2017)

Paul Tuohy's Brompton returned


----------



## Tim Hall (24 Dec 2017)

srw said:


> Live in a more honest part of the country.


"Travel through" a more honest part part of the country would be a better bet.


----------



## Bromptonaut (2 Jan 2018)

Travelled from Milton Keynes or Northampton to Euston for 14+ years with no issues. Preference was to stow bike between seat backs but failing that left it in door lobby. If it wasn't in sight locked it to stanchion with a cable lock but under no illusion that would deter a professional.


----------



## Kell (3 Jan 2018)

I've often wondered how it doesn't happen more frequently. 

I'm on the Chiltern line and my train journey is <40 minutes, so I just stand with my bike.


----------



## chris folder (3 Jan 2018)

What do you guys think about train fairs going up


----------



## mjr (3 Jan 2018)

chris folder said:


> What do you guys think about train fairs going up


See https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/should-motorists-subsidise-the-railways.228786/


----------



## jefmcg (3 Jan 2018)

Bromptonaut said:


> . If it wasn't in sight locked it to stanchion with a cable lock but under no illusion that would deter a professional.


I think that is plenty. These seem to be crimes of opportunity**. There are no stories of tooled up professionals roaming trains looking for Bromptons, and if there were, they would not find many. Also, it would be very risky to take wire cutters out and hope no one would notice. It would only take a slightly loud question from someone noticing if for the owner - who will only be a few meters away - to hear and respond.

**the fact that the Brompton that started this thread was found abandoned suggests that it wasn't a professional theif, but just someone who saw an opportunity.


----------



## Kell (4 Jan 2018)

jefmcg said:


> I think that is plenty. These seem to be crimes of opportunity**. There are no stories of tooled up professionals roaming trains looking for Bromptons, and if there were, they would not find many. Also, it would be very risky to take wire cutters out and hope no one would notice. It would only take a slightly loud question from someone noticing if for the owner - who will only be a few meters away - to hear and respond.



I think this is true, but be under no illusion that tooled-up professionals are NOT roaming the trains.

A friend of mine had his Brompton stolen from his destination station. Obviously he normally takes it on the train with him, ut had a dental appointment that morning and locked it at the train station while he went to the dentists. When he came back, it was gone. CCTV footage showed a gang of people dressed 'as cyclists' getting off the train, going to the cycle racks, cutting free several bikes and then getting on another train with 'their' bikes back to London.

It seems like a lot of effort to me, but I guess outlying stations are a prime target as the bikes are left there all day.

So I guess they might take advantage of an opportunity to nick a bike from under your nose if you're not paying attention, but they're more likely to pick on those people locking them up for the day.


----------



## Mile195 (4 Jan 2018)

I travelled from Cornwall back to Paddington with my bike last summer. It goes in a separate area that you can't get to through the train. The guard was rushing me to get in the passenger section, as the train had to leave and I didn't feel I had time to lock it so I left it. At each stop I ended up leaving my bag to hold my seat, and leaning out of the door looking up to the back of the train until it was ready to leave each station.
My bike was safe as a result, but there was every opportunity my bag could have got nicked instead!..

However, I think in your position I would almost certainly tether it to a luggage rack or hand rail if it couldn't be sat with me. I wouldn't leave any other item worth a thousand pounds on a train in a place where I couldn't see it, and it could easily be picked up by someone else.


----------



## Ajax Bay (4 Jan 2018)

ianrauk said:


> Paul Tuohy's Brompton returned


Lucky, lucky man.


----------



## Randombiker9 (4 Jan 2018)

i've never taken my bike on a train but i assume if it happens don't the BTP deal with this (British Transport Police) because here whenever crime happens on trains or in a train station there the ones that tend to deal with it.?


----------



## mjr (5 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> It's not always a good idea to lock a bike on a train though. Not that long ago I was on a train on which a guy locked his bike up to a rail in the non-opening side of the vestibule, and went away and sat down. At East Croydon the doors opened on that side, and chaos and bad-tempered exchanges ensued. He did rescue his bike from being pulled out of the door, but he didn't have time to unlock it and move it. There are good reasons why locking bikes is usually not allowed by train operators.


Someone being stupid when leaving their bike in a vestibule isn't a good reason against locking up in the racks, though.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (5 Jan 2018)

Randombiker9 said:


> i've never taken my bike on a train but i assume if it happens don't the BTP deal with this (British Transport Police) because here whenever crime happens on trains or in a train station there the ones that tend to deal with it.?


Yes. Our cycle forum works with BTB regarding bike theft from railway property/trains. Sussex plod not interested.

BTPs advice can be summarised as "get a clunker for each end and stop leaving valuable kit unattended". Plenty of scrotes ride the rails locally looking for opportunistic targets.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (5 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> At East Croydon the doors opened on that side, and chaos and bad-tempered exchanges ensued.


Peak hours, a completely normal situation at East Croydon, bike or no bike.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (5 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> Yes, I know. He obviously didnt.


East Croydon also seems to be home to "yoof in the luggage rack" even when seats are free.


----------



## mjr (5 Jan 2018)

User13710 said:


> The point about locking bikes to trains is that if something goes wrong, say you lose or mislay the key to your lock, the whole train is held up, which can be incredibly disruptive in so many respects. I can see why it is not allowed.


I don't see why the train would be held up by a bike locked to a rack. You'd miss your stop but it's only you that you'd inconvenience, except for those stupid companies which use racks where later arrivals block earlier bikes (Greater Anglia Ely-Ipswich) but they cause holdups without locks anyway.


----------



## theclaud (5 Jan 2018)

User said:


> If you have the guard's van door open, and are inside looking for your key, what do you think they are going to do, shut the door and drive off with you in there. It is a sad consequence of the current structure but the train operators get fined for delays they cause, and they don't want cyclists giving them a load of bother.


Guard's van and luggage racks are different prospects, though. In the guard's van, your non-foldy bike can have a lock securing the wheel to the frame (without locking it to the train), which should be a reasonably effective deterrent, because the thief is not going to want to attract attention to himself in a station by having to carry a bike on his shoulder. If you can't find your key you can just lift the bike off and panic on the platform, and it doesn't matter if you draw a small puzzled crowd. Not much use locking a Brompton to itself in a luggage rack by the door, though, as it doesn't look any more odd carrying someone else's Brompton off the train than your own.


----------



## theclaud (5 Jan 2018)

Anyway, the wider point is that it's a shame, although (as Adrian implies) an entirely predictable outcome of the political structure of the railways, that the response of TOCs to increased demand for integrated bike-rail transport is to discourage and obstruct people who wish to travel with a bicycle, and to provoke conflict between users, rather than changing the way they operate to accommodate a benign and socially desirable development.


----------



## mjr (5 Jan 2018)

User said:


> If you have the guard's van door open, and are inside looking for your key, what do you think they are going to do, shut the door and drive off with you in there.


I rarely use a train with a guard's van. I was thinking more of the in-carriage racks. Guard's vans are more secure anyway so a lock to itself as @theclaud suggests seems like it would be enough, plus you can then futz with keys and bags on the platform at your leisure.



User said:


> It is a sad consequence of the current structure but the train operators get fined for delays they cause, and they don't want cyclists giving them a load of bother.


Good: anyone whose bike gets nicked while unlocked because of their stupid rules should claim the money back off them and give them a load of bother.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (5 Jan 2018)

User said:


> If you have the guard's van door open, and are inside looking for your key, what do you think they are going to do, shut the door and drive off with you in there. It is a sad consequence of the current structure but the train operators get fined for delays they cause, and they don't want cyclists giving them a load of bother.


ime, yes, twice, with GWR, and then you get an "Oi, mate!" bollocking off the platform staff at the next stop.


----------



## bonker (10 Jan 2018)

In my area you don't have the option of being very far from your Brompton. Certainly no chance of a rack for the bike and a seat for the rider.
The whole original story sounds fishy, who goes to the trouble of nicking a Brompton then abandons it?


----------



## MiK1138 (10 Jan 2018)

robjh said:


> I no longer know if we're just talking about folders, but supposing we've moved onto all bikes, then watching them gets harder when you have to store them in things like this, at the end of a carriage
> View attachment 388100
> 
> In cases like this I try and sit within view of the nearest exit onto the platform, and check at each station that no-one is wheeling my bike away. I would have to react quickly if they were though. Not a perfect system, but I haven't had any losses so far.


D lock through the back wheel = stress free train journey


----------



## jefmcg (10 Jan 2018)

bonker said:


> In my area you don't have the option of being very far from your Brompton. Certainly no chance of a rack for the bike and a seat for the rider.
> The whole original story sounds fishy, who goes to the trouble of nicking a Brompton then abandons it?


An opportunist "amateur", who sees a bike he can take while the owner is distracted. He finds it's hot, being written up in the local press, and realises his friends will be suspicious if he rides it, and if he puts it on gumtree, a thousand junior detectives will be ringing the police to let them know.

I would have no idea how to dispose of such a bike, except abandoning it.


----------

