# Who else uses flat pedals?



## lulubel (17 Mar 2012)

And I mean just flat pedals, not toe clips!

After nearly 3 years of "going to go clipless when I have some spare cash for the pedals and shoes," I've finally realised the reason I haven't done it is because I like my flat pedals. It's a good thing because I'm building a new bike, and have spent the last couple of evenings looking at SPD pedals online and trying to decide which ones to buy. After my ride today, I realised there's nothing wrong with flat pedals, I don't ride in the wet and my feet don't slip, I like riding in normal shoes, and I like being able to get a foot down very quickly if I need to.

I wonder if I've been bowing to (imagined) peer pressure and thinking I'm not a proper cyclist if I don't go clipless.

So, who else uses flats all/some of the time? And why?


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## asterix (17 Mar 2012)

My new town bike, a Trek Soho has flat pedals. I'm reasonably happy with them because they let me cycle in ordinary shoes, however it's quite possible I will put some toeclip pedals on as these will also let me cycle in ordinary shoes and I have a pair sitting around. 

I wouldn't want to use anything but clipless on my distance bikes as I like hilly regions and these pedals make a big difference.


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## Bluenite (17 Mar 2012)

I like flat pedals as well, my feet don't slip off them, i can wear any trainer i want and i can put my feet down with out thinking about clipping in or out.
I have a hybrid and a road bike and both have flats i'm happy with them and as long as i'm happy that's all that matters.

PS and they last a life time unlike STD's.


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## CopperCyclist (17 Mar 2012)

Bluenite said:


> I like flat pedals as well, my feet don't slip off them, i can wear any trainer i want and i can put my feet down with out thinking about clipping in or out.
> I have a hybrid and a road bike and both have flats i'm happy with them and as long as i'm happy that's all that matters.
> 
> PS and they last a life time unlike STD's.



Depends on the STD. Some sexually transmitted diseases can last a very long time.


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## snorri (17 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> I wonder if I've been bowing to (imagined) peer pressure and thinking I'm not a proper cyclist if I don't go clipless. So, who else uses flats all/some of the time? And why?


 
Stand firm lulubel, you are not alone. 
Two of my bikes have flats, but the tourer has plastic toe clip things which I still find adequate even after the straps wore through and fell off.
The convenience of cycling in whichever boots or shoes I happen to be wearing at the time influences my choice.


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## Nearly there (17 Mar 2012)

Ived had my bike about a month or so and have been using flats until I got used to shifting etc but my feet slip sometimes so im putting spd pedals on ive got the pedals alreadyhttp://www.highonbikes.com/drivetrain/pedals-clipless-mtb/shimano-pd-m520-spd-clipless-pedals.html but no shoes as yet cant make up my mind on which ones


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## smokeysmoo (17 Mar 2012)

I always used flats when I had MTB's, then I went clipless a few years ago and was loving it, then I had a big off and broke my ankle! While I was in plaster I put flats back on and sold the SPD's. Then when I got back on the bike I absolutely hated it, so much to Mrs S's dismay I bought new SPD's and have never looked back.
If it 'aint broke don't fix I guess would be the message, but there is an unquestionable benefit to be gained from going clipless IMO.


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## skudupnorth (17 Mar 2012)

I have flats on all my bikes with Zefal strapless toe clips so i can wear what i want,can even have my hikers on whilst riding the Boardman  !


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## MacB (17 Mar 2012)

I think I fall into the prefer flats camp  or rather I don't fall

It's something only you can decide and, whichever way you decide only you can really tell what, if any, difference it makes to you.

I have tried clips and straps, clipless, toe clips, powergrips and velcro straps, and none of them gave me enough return to be worth the effort. I did notice a difference on steep hills but the rest of the time nothing. With SPDs I found the negatives of specific shoes, not so easy to walk, getting clipped in and out, falling over, knee and foot pain, outweighed the positives for my type of riding....fitness, fun and utility. 

But it's one of those things that seems to exert pressure on a rider and you're not deemed a 'proper' cyclist without. I can guarantee that if I go on a ride someone will comment on my choice of pedals. I felt much happier with my riding, and almost like a weight was lifted, when I finally decided that I really did prefer flats and was just going to go with it. Without that 'pressure' from other riders, in real life or online, I doubt I would ever have bother trying pedals with foot attachment.

As for some of the claims about statospheric gains over flat pedals, I almost feel I should be billing those people for a share of the money I spent on trying other pedals.


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## lulubel (17 Mar 2012)

I'm glad to see I'm not alone.



asterix said:


> I wouldn't want to use anything but clipless on my distance bikes as I like hilly regions and these pedals make a big difference.


 


smokeysmoo said:


> If it 'aint broke don't fix I guess would be the message, but there is an unquestionable benefit to be gained from going clipless IMO.


 
So, what's the difference/benefit? Everything I've read says it's something to do with smoother power delivery and getting the benefit of the up-stroke as well as the down, and all this leading to going faster?



skudupnorth said:


> I have flats on all my bikes with Zefal strapless toe clips so i can wear what i want,can even have my hikers on whilst riding the Boardman  !


 
I love it! And those Zefal toe clips look clever. (I had straps on my road bike when I first bought it, and they came off after I nearly fell off on my first "test ride" up the road while I was trying to turn the pedals up the right way!)


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## terry_gardener (17 Mar 2012)

i like flat pedals also, same reason as already mentioned choice of footwear


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## Paul J (17 Mar 2012)

I think it comes down to what you feel happy with as everyone will have an opinion what is best to use. It's not like you have to share so have what you like or prefer. 

I am using flats but I am always worried of my feet slipping off and going in the front wheel. Happened to me many years ago with a headbutt to the granite kerbstone and you can guess who won. I will be buying clips when I can afford it.


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## lulubel (17 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> With SPDs I found the negatives of specific shoes, not so easy to walk, getting clipped in and out, falling over, knee and foot pain, outweighed the positives for my type of riding....fitness, fun and utility.


 
Yes, I've read about a lot of the negatives too, and I already have knee problems (not just from the recent crash - I had an accident in my teens that damaged my knees), so I suspect I'd really struggle to get them set up.

Those are the reasons I ride too. It became very much about speed for a while, but I didn't realise I'd stopped enjoying it until I was forced onto a slower bike, and I'm loving every minute of my rides now I'm not trying to complete the next mile within a certain time.


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## Rickshaw Phil (17 Mar 2012)

Flat pedals here too. I find flats perfectly adequate for the kind of riding I do and not needing to use specific shoes is useful, especially in winter when I can wear boots to keep my toes from freezing.


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## MacB (17 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> Yes, I've read about a lot of the negatives too, and I already have knee problems (not just from the recent crash - I had an accident in my teens that damaged my knees), so I suspect I'd really struggle to get them set up.
> 
> Those are the reasons I ride too. *It became very much about speed for a while*, but I didn't realise I'd stopped enjoying it until I was forced onto a slower bike, and I'm loving every minute of my rides now I'm not trying to complete the next mile within a certain time.


 
I'm honest with myself it was speed I was after as well, when I had my serious try at clipless I was about as fit as I've been and doing a lot of miles. Strangely the bit that is meant to take time to learn...pedalling in circles...seemed pretty straight forward to me. It felt quite powerful but I was trying this on my regular commute so I knew my normal speeds and the reality of my computer told me it was mainly in my mind.

Changing back to flats was due to a combination of factors....my first ever fall in which I was lucky not to be hurt and I didn't find it hilarious like clipless afficionados would have you believe. Nagging knee pains as I hadn't got the cleats quite right. I also didn't like the sensation of being attached to the pedals. I was doing everything by bike at that point and a biggie, for me, was grabbing a bike to pop to the shops then realising I needed to go and change shoes.

I don't doubt that over time I would get used to clipless and then flats would feel strange, just as the opposite is true.


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## Bluenite (17 Mar 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Depends on the STD. Some sexually transmitted diseases can last a very long time.


 
In my defence, i was eating cake at the time.


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## HovR (17 Mar 2012)

I use clips and straps on the road bike, however my slicked up mountain bike (which I use for short distances around the city) has flat pedals, and wouldn't change it. I can definitely see the advantage that being attached to the pedals gives you, but on certain trips the drawbacks outweigh the disadvantages.


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## Blue Steel (17 Mar 2012)

I've been using clipless pedals and shoes for many years, and for me it wouldn't feel right without them. That's probably because I ride for what you could losely (very losely!) describe as 'sport'. i.e. I step outside my front door, ride my bike and some hours later arrive back, usually without having stopped or had to remove my foot from the pedal. If I were commuting in an urban area, or popping down to the shops I can see how clipless could be a lot of faff, and the shoes are a right pain to walk in.
Different strokes for different folks. If it works for you then it's the right choice. I wouldn't worry too much what anyone else says. Us cyclists seem to be a very mixed bag. There is always going to be someone who disagrees with your choices, from the type of bike you ride to the colour of your bar tape!


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## skudupnorth (17 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> I'm glad to see I'm not alone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
They are very comfy and you still get the forward push without feeling too attached to the bike and they are pretty cheap.I use the larger ones as i find the small ones pinch your toes a bit if you are wearing anything bigger than cycle specific shoes.


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## smokeysmoo (17 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> So, what's the difference/benefit? Everything I've read says it's something to do with smoother power delivery and getting the benefit of the up-stroke as well as the down, and all this leading to going faster?


 
That's it in a nutshell. Efficient power transfer due to stiff soles, and the benefit of being able to pull up on the pedal as well. It might sound like baffling with bull to be honest, but it does work. There's a reason the pro guys don't use flats, but if you're happy on flats then leave them alone


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## MacB (17 Mar 2012)

smokeysmoo said:


> There's a reason the pro guys don't use flats


 
Don't forget sponsorship...but there's also a reason why comparison between recereational cyclists and pro cyclists is pretty bloody pointless


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## smokeysmoo (17 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> Don't forget sponsorship...but there's also a reason why comparison between recereational cyclists and pro cyclists is pretty bloody pointless


Fair enoughski.


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## I like Skol (17 Mar 2012)

I have been using SPDs (just the bog standard M520's) since my early 20's and can't think of any situation where the control and attachment doesn't give an advantage. I am now approaching 40 and recently bought a combined double sided SPD/flat pedal (M324's?) for my hybrid so I could nip to the shops or go out with the family without donning my 'special' shoes because, although they are as comfy and easy to walk in as trainers, they do look a bit dorkish. I soon found I hate riding without the clipped in feel as my foot would move around on the pedal, especially during the return upstroke when I must be pulling up on the pedal with the spd's to give a more even powerstroke. This also means that on the down stroke my foot isn't always quite in the right place to give the best push, it's not that my foot is at risk of slipping off, it just isn't optimal. I suspect the fact that I am clipped in allows for a more efficient power transfer and also allows additional effort to be added to the upstroke. This extra 'pull' during the upstroke might not be much, maybe 5-10%, but it's better than nothing.

I reckon anyone who uses SPDs sucessfully would not be keen to return to flats once the initial strangeness has been overcome.


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## Bluenite (17 Mar 2012)

I don't have any problems getting up hills in my Nike's and pedals. Is it just a question of psychology, like Dumbo with the feather.


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## MacB (17 Mar 2012)

I like Skol said:


> I soon found I hate riding without the clipped in feel as my foot would move around on the pedal, especially during the return upstroke when I must be pulling up on the pedal with the spd's to give a more even powerstroke.


 
give it time and you'll learn to pedal properly without losing your footing...try watching some kids they all manage just fine


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## rollinstok (17 Mar 2012)

+1 for combi pedals
spd side is great for long rides
flat for casual stuff


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## Pat "5mph" (17 Mar 2012)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> Flat pedals here too. I find flats perfectly adequate for the kind of riding I do and not needing to use specific shoes is useful, especially in winter when I can wear boots to keep my toes from freezing.


 




Lulubel said:


> I like being able to get a foot down very quickly if I need to.


 
Me too, in town there is a lot of obstacles.


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## smokeysmoo (17 Mar 2012)

I like Skol said:


> I reckon anyone who uses SPDs sucessfully would not be keen to return to flats once the initial strangeness has been overcome.


+1


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## mickle (17 Mar 2012)

Me too. My clip-in pedals and shoes are gathering dust, unused since I sold my road bike. Im sure that if I ever get my Mtb back together or buy another road bike I'll use them again. Theyd look a bit out of place on my cargo bike...


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Mar 2012)

shopping/pub bike has flats as does the brommie (though on theB they can be swapped for spds in 10 seconds)


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## theclaud (17 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> *if I go on a ride *someone will comment on my choice of pedals.



You're pretty much safe on that score, then


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## Bman (17 Mar 2012)

Flats on the MTB, SPD's on the road bike.


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## MacB (17 Mar 2012)

theclaud said:


> You're pretty much safe on that score, then


 
Ooooh, that elicits a feeling akin to being slapped round the face with a wet kipper...TC enters the little black book


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## youngoldbloke (17 Mar 2012)

I really like the feeling of being attached to the bike, why ever not? - and the advantages of clipless far outweigh the disadvantages - for me. I have used clips and straps and shoe plates, and then SPD/SL style pedals for 50 years or so. I even feel uncomfortable on a gym exercise bike with loose straps! But each to his /her own. However, a friend who used strapless clips and swore they would never use clipless pedals has recently become a total SPD convert, and no - not peer group pressure, just greater efficiency - their verdict.

PS - really interesting website covering the history of pedals - all varieties


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## Crackle (17 Mar 2012)

Flats, mtb, clips on my road bike for the last few years and toeclips for about ..... yonks, before that. I simply prefer the feeling of being clipped in, I'm uncertain I gain any advantage from it, except on steep pulls. I dare say if I learnt to pedal in circles I might but life's too short. I've even contemplated going back to toeclips, means I don't have to worry about shoe choice.


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## zigzag (17 Mar 2012)

i use flats on my runabout bike mainly because i can cycle in any shoes, even flip flops


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## I like Skol (17 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> and I like being able to get a foot down very quickly if I need to.





Pat "5mph" said:


> Me too, in town there is a lot of obstacles.


Once you are used to SPDs then you find your feet pop out without even thinking about it, at just the right moment, just when you need it (except for my right foot which has been a bit stubborn recently, I think the cleats are getting worn and I have had a spare set sat in a drawer for years )




zigzag said:


> i use flats on my runabout bike mainly because i can cycle in any shoes, even flip flops


I have been sooooooo tempted to get some of THESE in the last couple of years


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## Brandane (17 Mar 2012)

I like having the double sided option too, and have these fitted to my 3 bikes:







I go through phases of using the SPD's but I would say that 99% of the time I don't bother with them. I am no TDF rider and any efficiency advantage I might get from being clipped in would be negligible (if any). The pins on the flat side of the pedal are very grippy and I have never even come close to slipping off the pedals. Plus the advantages others have mentioned re being able to cycle in any shoes, get your foot down in a hurry etc..


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## Banjo (17 Mar 2012)

I have double sided Shimano 530 pedals and have drilled the rim of the flat side and inserted short bits of stainless steel mtb spokes to provide pins similar to those on Brandanes Wellgo pedals have. Since then I have discovered riding on the flats is equally as fast and no foot slip whatsoever so rarely bother with clipping in now.

I have a very light pair of rubber soled trainers that have proved comfortable on several 100 mile plus rides. To be honest I think I may use flats and trainers all the time now.Also the bit of knee pain I used to experience has dissapeared since going for flats.

I am never going to be a fast rider so the comfortable easy option does me fine.


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## dave r (17 Mar 2012)

I haven't used flats for many years, I have clips and straps on the fixed and clipless on the geared bike, of the two systems I prefer clips and straps, I don't like being as well attached to the bike as I am on clipless, I also like being able to use any boot or shoe I like with the clips and straps, on performance I get no advantage from the clipless.


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## TheDoctor (17 Mar 2012)

Flat pedals on the Brommie (unless I'm taking it on a tour), flat/SPD double sided pedals on the SS, flat pedals on the hack. SPDs on the Carbon Uberbike.


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## MacB (17 Mar 2012)

zigzag said:


> i use flats on my runabout bike mainly because i can cycle in any shoes, even flip flops


 
Very good Rimas


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## RAYMOND (18 Mar 2012)

I think its a personal choice like the helmut debate.
Neither are right or wrong,its what feels comfortable to you.
Personally i think normal peddles are just fine and safer/easier with no hassle.
I have been dithering over getting SPDs for a while but have decided not to bother
for this year at least.
Sure they might give you a extra few minutes in a race but were not professionals are we.
Some cyclists just like to look the part which is fine,even i like the pro's jerseys and am in
danger of going overboard on all the gear but the main thing is to get out there and cycle as often as you like.


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## summerdays (18 Mar 2012)

I got as fitting the pedals that are one sided ... but to be honest I cycle in a whole range of footware from big boots in the depths of winter, through converses, sandles and yes flip flops!!! (well Birkenstock's). I don't want to have to change footware to cycle. 

I do find hills aren't easy but I don't think changing pedals would solve it ... just might help a little - just not a natural climber - or too lazy!


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## palinurus (18 Mar 2012)

I don't have a bike with flats currently, but I wish I did.

When I had my Brompton I always had a bike I could jump on in any clothing. Might get a cheap old folder for these sort of journeys, I'll lock it rather than fold and carry.


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## Maylian (18 Mar 2012)

I have flats on my cube hybrid and I love them but I'm currently having the same issues deciding if I go down the cleats on my road bike. Problem I have is that should I go down the cleat route I would have to carry another pair of shoes for going to the gym unless I get a double sided pedal, lots to think about but I may just stay with cages on the roadie.


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## lulubel (18 Mar 2012)

Thanks for all the feedback. This has turned into a really interesting discussion, and I'm quite surprised there are so many people out there using flats.

I'm going to stick to mine - well, get some for my new bike. It feels like quite a relief to have stopped pressurising myself to go clipless!


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## col (18 Mar 2012)

Always do since oo years ago now. didnt really make much difference to me as Im not a sportive, so flats on all bikes and feels good for me. If I need to put the hammer down I can, depends how stiff my soles are to how comfortable hammering is, but still fine for me


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## pepecat (18 Mar 2012)

I use toe clips, and think i'm sticking to them for the time being. I tried clipless last year, and didn't much like it - i got so worried about not being able to put my foot down before falling over, that i didn't want to go out cycling, which is not really the point! So i went back to toe clips and and much happier. Heck, i managed 65 miles over dartmoor with toeclips and it was fine. And i saw people cycling that sportive with flats as well - each to their own i guess!


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## Hip Priest (18 Mar 2012)

I have flats on my commuting bike and prefer it that way. I've recently got SPD-SL pedals and shoes for the road bike and really enjoy them when out in the lanes, but I am nervy when I'm back in civilisation - junctions...etc Hopefully I'll get used to it.

Ultimately, it's up to the individual. I can perfectly understand why some people would prefer flats and wouldn't criticise anyone for their choice.


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## Deanno1dad (18 Mar 2012)

I upgraded the Scott sub hybrid to DMR v12 flat pedals.
best flat pedals I've used,the pins have great grip on the trainers,cannot see a need for others with these.


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## Doug. (18 Mar 2012)

CopperCyclist said:


> Depends on the STD. Some sexually transmitted diseases can last a very long time.


 

Presumably the voice of experience.


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## ShinyDave (18 Mar 2012)

I'm probably going to be getting flats fitted to the Boardman CX Team I'm planning to get. Given my coordination issues, the last thing I need is being unable to plonk my foot on the road at a junction easily.


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## bucksgill (18 Mar 2012)

Up until Sunday afternoon I had flats with toe clips (no straps) on my road bike however I have just joined a club and a guy there has leant me some clipless pedals and shoes. I personally see a massive difference on the hills but that may be down the the shoes; on the flats I was wearing worn out plimpsolls which flexed like mad and now I have a hard sole which means power is put down more efficiently.

I'm glad I have gone clipless, but its just personal preference. However when I get a new bike later this year I will move clipless to that one and put the flats back on my current bike to make it better for a city runaround bike. All depends on the individual situation of the rider, but at the end of the day do whatever the damn you want! If you enjoy it then why care what other people think?


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## Doug. (18 Mar 2012)

I use "flat" light weight pedals having changed from the "S.P.D" type.
I was not happy with the being "clipped on" feeling.
Tried the "clip less" pedals for over a year and I generally never felt comfortable.
Could just be me as I have friends who consider them excellent with no problems or concern of rapid "unclipping".
I tend to sympathise with your observation re.S.P.D pedals etc.
Is it possible you may consider spending your spare cash on a different cycle "up grade" ?
Yours
Doug.


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## GetAGrip (18 Mar 2012)

Always used flat pedals prior to getting the new Dash, which have clips and straps. I get on well with the clips, but would not like the feeling of being attached to the bike with clipless. So I'll stick with flats on the runaround/shopper and keep the clips on the Dash. Whatever your comfortable with I say.


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## lulubel (18 Mar 2012)

Doug. said:


> Is it possible you may consider spending your spare cash on a different cycle "up grade" ?


 
I've managed to spend lots of not-spare cash on lots of cycle related things recently, so there are definitely no worries there


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## youngoldbloke (19 Mar 2012)

RAYMOND said:


> Sure they might give you a extra few minutes in a race but were not professionals are we.
> Some cyclists just like to look the part which is fine,even i like the pro's jerseys and am in
> danger of going overboard on all the gear .........


 
Please not this 'fashion' argument (again). If you look at the Pedal Museum website I linked to earlier, you will see people have been inventing ways of linking their feet more firmly to their pedals almost since the invention of the bicycle. It is a personal thing. If you don't like/get on with/feel trapped by/ etc etc don't use them. Your choice.


Maylian said:


> Problem I have is that should I go down the cleat route I would have to carry another pair of shoes for going to the gym ......


I always carry my gym kit and shoes separately anyway. Change when I get there. Different shoes for different activities. You don't go to play football wearing your boots do you? Wear your climbing shoes on the journey to the hills?


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## mickle (19 Mar 2012)

Contrary to the myth of clip-in (and clips and straps pedals before them) even pro cyclists struggle to 'lift' the rising pedal. The best that can be acheived in practice is a slight reduction in the weight of the rising leg, which gives the falling leg less to do. There is a slight benefit at the bottom of the stroke, an ability to claw the pedal back which allows for a longer power stroke. It's easier to 'pedal in circles', the stroke becomes less of an up/down treadle action. Clip-ins allow you to spin faster, and more spinny = more aerobic. The real benefit of clips and clip-in pedals is that they reduce the amount of energy required to keep the foot on the pedal, automatically align the foot in the optimal location and prevent the foot from slipping off.

The limit to the amount of power we can deliver to the pedals is limited by our ability to process oxygen._ Even if we could_ pull up on the pedals at every stroke, it wouldn't be free energy. Clip-in pedals just allow us to be more efficient.


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## Maylian (19 Mar 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> Please not this 'fashion' argument (again). If you look at the Pedal Museum website I linked to earlier, you will see people have been inventing ways of linking their feet more firmly to their pedals almost since the invention of the bicycle. It is a personal thing. If you don't like/get on with/feel trapped by/ etc etc don't use them. Your choice.
> 
> I always carry my gym kit and shoes separately anyway. Change when I get there. Different shoes for different activities. You don't go to play football wearing your boots do you? Wear your climbing shoes on the journey to the hills?


 
Well the issue that I have is that I don't use panniers and since I do a lot of running and swimming my backpack is full with pull buoys, goggles, towels and there just wouldn't be space for my running shoes. Hence me preferring to use cages, that's why I'm thinking of going down the double sided so can get proper cycle shoes for long rides and use trainers for my gym ride / commute.


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## Paulus (19 Mar 2012)

I have a range of pedals on my bikes, SPD's on my Condor and Audax, Toe straps on my tourer, although I always have the straps on the loose side so that I can wear any type of shoe/boot when I go shopping or to the pub, or of course touring. Finally I have flats on my Brommie for my work shoes/boots.


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## threebikesmcginty (19 Mar 2012)

Got to be flats if you just want to hop on a bike and ride.

I've got Eggbeaters on my PX but I don't know that they make things better/faster/more efficient, etc., but then I'm not a serious cyclist anyway.


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## fossyant (19 Mar 2012)

One thing I can't do without is clipless - on all of my bikes. Everyday shoes aren't good for cycling as they flex too much and put pressure on the wrong part of your foot (especially in the arch area). The other issue is standard shoes can damage your knee more as your foot may not be correctly aligned, causing mechanical inefficiencies.

If you don't ever intend a flat out sprint, or climb steep hills then stick to flats. I would however recommend cycle touring type shoes if you stick with flats as the soles will be more rigid = comfortable over long distances. 

If you are going to spend a lot of the time in the saddle, then correct shoes are just as important as a correct bike fit.


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> Please not this 'fashion' argument (again). If you look at the Pedal Museum website I linked to earlier, you will see people have been inventing ways of linking their feet more firmly to their pedals almost since the invention of the bicycle. It is a personal thing. If you don't like/get on with/feel trapped by/ etc etc don't use them. Your choice.


 
Actually, the impression I got from the site you linked to was that being attached to the bike is a relatively recent idea. For a long time, there were just various different designs and shapes of flat pedals, then toe clips and straps were introduced. It's only in relatively recent years that being attached to the bike has become "the thing".



youngoldbloke said:


> I always carry my gym kit and shoes separately anyway. Change when I get there. Different shoes for different activities. You don't go to play football wearing your boots do you? Wear your climbing shoes on the journey to the hills?


 
If no-one was allowed to participate in an activity unless they were wearing the "correct" clothing, we'd have even more of a problem with obesity than we currently do.


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## RecordAceFromNew (19 Mar 2012)

mickle said:


> Contrary to the myth of clip-in (and clips and straps pedals before them) even pro cyclists struggle to 'lift' the rising pedal. The best that can be acheived in practice is a slight reduction in the weight of the rising leg, which gives the falling leg less to do. There is a slight benefit at the bottom of the stroke, an ability to claw the pedal back which allows for a longer power stroke. It's easier to 'pedal in circles', the stroke becomes less of an up/down treadle action.


 
Hear, hear!

And none of that can not be achieved by half clips imo. Those Zefal plastic ones are perfectly functional, but I believe the bees knees are these currently. They look great with these. Some such clips come in different sizes, so it is worthwhile picking the right one.

This is probably worth reading too.


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

fossyant said:


> Everyday shoes aren't good for cycling as they flex too much and put pressure on the wrong part of your foot (especially in the arch area). The other issue is standard shoes can damage your knee more as your foot may not be correctly aligned, causing mechanical inefficiencies.
> 
> If you don't ever intend a flat out sprint, or climb steep hills then stick to flats


 
Hmm ... not sure I agree, to be honest. I've been riding 100+ miles a week for the last 9 months in a pair of old running shoes, including lots of steep climbs (it's hard to avoid them around here) and I haven't had any knee problems. One of my biggest concerns about going clipless was how I'd get them set up to not put any strain on my knees, since I do have old injuries to contend with.


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Those Zefal plastic ones are perfectly functional, but I believe the bees knees are these currently. They look great with these.


 
And even better on a steel framed tourer in British racing green with a brown leather saddle and bar tape


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## Francesca (19 Mar 2012)

I ride with flats - theres no way I would be "attached" clipped whatever you call it onto any bike - my personal opinion and Iam sure alot of you will think differently, thats fine. I do MTB and occasional cycle toe path stuff, and just weat my MTB shoes whilst on my bike..prefer it that way, but hey we are all different. I am only in foot harness when Iam in my spinning class.


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## fossyant (19 Mar 2012)

I wouldn't want 2 or more hours in the saddle with running shoes on. Depends upon how serious you want to be - if your going for say 60 miles in 3 hours and battering yourself, then the proper shoes come into their own. Runners don't use everyday walking shoes to run in do they ?

If you are just happy to cycle about then trainers might do.

Flats don't look right on road bikes anyway


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## Edwards80 (19 Mar 2012)

I "went clipless" this weekend on my road bike/commuter and I'm already considering sticking some onto my MTB too. I've found it far more comfortable and weirdly I feel safer than I did with the flats / mini clips. Horses for courses I guess!

Very glad I read this thread! The pedals below will be perfect for an old racer that I'm restoring for my Father-in-law - its a 30+ yr old 9 speed and plastic would just look wrong 



RecordAceFromNew said:


> Those Zefal plastic ones are perfectly functional, but I believe the bees knees are these currently.


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## RecordAceFromNew (19 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> And even better on a steel framed tourer in British racing green with a brown leather saddle and bar tape


 
Wot? Does your Cross Check know you are contemplating N+1 already?


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

fossyant said:


> I wouldn't want 2 or more hours in the saddle with running shoes on. Depends upon how serious you want to be - if your going for say 60 miles in 3 hours and battering yourself, then the proper shoes come into their own.


 
I think the longest I've done is 3:30 in the saddle. And it depends what you mean by serious. If serious means racing (or at least going as fast as possible), then I'm not at all serious. I don't mind doing some fast - for me - rides, but distance is really what interests me.



fossyant said:


> Runners don't use everyday walking shoes to run in do they?


 
Barefoot running seems to be the thing at the moment, which doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't fancy getting all kinds of rubbish stuck in my feet.

When I started running, I had terrible knee pain running in a pair of "fashion" trainers, and it wasn't until I had my gait analysed and was fitted for a pair of support shoes that the knee pain stopped. I took to wearing the support shoes for hiking as well, when long walks made my knees ache. I started wearing them for cycling after trying a few pairs of other shoes and getting painful knees, so I'm not so sure that footwear should be sport specific as much as it should be individual person specific. The same shoes seem to work for me regardless of what sport I'm doing.


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Wot? Does your Cross Check know you are contemplating N+1 already?


 
I'm a girl. We call it window shopping


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## Bluenite (19 Mar 2012)

SPD's and Brook saddles are the work of the devil......


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

Bluenite said:


> SPD's and Brook saddles are the work of the devil......


 
Two things that polarise the cycling community. Someone just needs to mention helmets and then we'll really have a discussion


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## youngoldbloke (19 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> Actually, the impression I got from the site you linked to was that being attached to the bike is a relatively recent idea. For a long time, there were just various different designs and shapes of flat pedals, then toe clips and straps were introduced. It's only in relatively recent years that being attached to the bike has become "the thing".
> 
> 
> Sager patented 1896 - recent years?? "This is but one of the many early designs of toe clips from this period. Fortunately, this example is one of the lucky few that survived the last 110 years."
> ...


 
- depends how serious you are about the activity. I wouldnt like to go walking in the Cairngorms in flip-flops.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (19 Mar 2012)

I'm on flats and Specialized Rockhopper shoes.
I tried Eggbeaters on the MTB and was too duck-footed, could never get one cleat right.
When I start back on the 1980's roadie I'm gonna whip out the SPD's and Shimano shoes and have another go. Currently stored with flats on too.


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> - depends how serious you are about the activity.


 
Well, this discussion is taking place in the beginners forum. Most people don't know if they're going to be serious about an activity when they're just starting out, so someone implying that you shouldn't take part unless you're wearing the "proper gear" could put people off who would otherwise go on to become serious.

Anyway, I don't wear the "proper gear" for cycling, and have no plans to when a lot of it is so overpriced, but I think 5000 miles a year would count as serious enough for most people.



youngoldbloke said:


> I wouldnt like to go walking in the Cairngorms in flip-flops.


 
You might not, and neither would I - I'd be wearing my running shoes - but if someone else did want to, that would be up to them, and I certainly wouldn't criticise them for not wearing "activity specific" footwear.


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## fossyant (19 Mar 2012)

Ah, you said you had gait analysis done for running - see - same can be done for cycling and the likes of Specialized do adaptable foot beds. Best tool for the job.


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## Bman (19 Mar 2012)

When I went clipless, the first benefit I noticed was with the footwear. The vents provided much needed (and missed ventilation) my feet felt much better. Then I found out I could put much more power into the pedal stroke. Queue exercise of leg muscles that didn't normally get that much use


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## MacB (19 Mar 2012)

fossyant said:


> Ah, you said you had gait analysis done for running - see - same can be done for cycling and the likes of Specialized do adaptable foot beds. *Best tool for the job*.


 
Best tool for which job is really the point...best tool for road racing then clipless pedals without a doubt...everything else is debateable and a lot depends on how you view, and how seriously you take, your hobby. When it's a case of utility first and hobby second then things become even more debateable.


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## lulubel (19 Mar 2012)

fossyant said:


> Ah, you said you had gait analysis done for running - see - same can be done for cycling and the likes of Specialized do adaptable foot beds. Best tool for the job.


 
Maybe. Shockingly expensive at $50 a pair, though. How long do they last?


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## youngoldbloke (19 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> Well, this discussion is taking place in the beginners forum. Most people don't know if they're going to be serious about an activity when they're just starting out, so someone implying that you shouldn't take part unless you're wearing the "proper gear" could put people off who would otherwise go on to become serious.
> 
> Anyway, I don't wear the "proper gear" for cycling, and have no plans to when a lot of it is so overpriced, but I think 5000 miles a year would count as serious enough for most people.
> 
> ...


 
I have already said it is the individuals choice. As beginners become more serious about the activity they _may_ wish to try clipless pedals, which offer both advantages and disadvantages, just as studded football boots, running spikes, or climbing shoes offer advantages to participants in those sports, but are unsuitable for everyday wear.

The mountain rescue service might criticise them ..... anyway - freedom to wear whatever footwear and clothing you like doesn't seem to be having a very positive effect on obesity .


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## threebikesmcginty (19 Mar 2012)

Bongman said:


> When I went clipless, the first benefit I noticed was with the footwear. The vents provided much needed (and missed ventilation) my feet felt much better.


 
You can get added ventilation using zigzag's flip flop method.


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## MacB (19 Mar 2012)

threebikesmcginty said:


> You can get added ventilation using zigzag's flip flop method.


 
 it makes you wonder doesn't it, did he only cycle in wellies before...how about some good old fashioned sandals with some black calf length socks


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## Nosaj (19 Mar 2012)

I detest mushrooms amongst other things but I only found out that I detest mushrooms after trying them in various guises (i.e. in a soup, on their own, with a fried breakfast). There is a moral in that statement somewhere I am sure.

My own humble opinion I started off with flats and toe clips/straps, got into cycling and swtiched to clipless admittedly as everyone in my club was clipless and took great pleasure in extolling the benefits to me at every and any opportunity. I recently bought an entry level hard tail mountain bike. It came with flat pedals and I cannot get used to the damn things now, my feet keep slipping off. One of the first mods aside from adding a water bottle cage and tweaking the seat height will be to add clipless pedals. So I must like them or perceive that they give me some benefit over flats or maybe I am just marketing mutton.

If clipless pedals scare you witless but flat pedals mean that you get out enjoy your bike and cyle miles and miles then flat pedals are the way to go. If the reverse then clipless are the way to go.

Cancellara would whoop my backside in a race if he rode with flat pedals (and one legged most probably) and I rode clipless so the gear does not necessarily maketh the man.

Try em and go with your own personal preference.

ps not that it really matters a jot but I have not had a clipless moment going clipless but I did with toe clips and straps.
EDIT: Also I can see the benefit to using flats if you are going on a short hop with numerous stops eg out with your kids my riding involves riding with minimal stopping


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## Bluenite (19 Mar 2012)

Jesus uses flats.







The internet says so...


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## Nosaj (19 Mar 2012)

Bluenite said:


> Jesus uses flats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ahhh yes but how many I pay road tax arguments did he get into


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## Tim (19 Mar 2012)

Hi, I have one bike with spd's and another, my tourer, with double sided pedals, and probably ride in 'normal shoes' on my tourer more often than than my spds. What I do notice is how my feet naturally adopt a narrower angle of gait (closer together) in my normal shoes than in the spds, and it feels more comfortable. Both bikes are set up with the same chainsets and bottom bracket widths and I can't get adjust the cleats on my SPDs any more to narrow the angle. Putting a washer under the medial side of the spd cleat helped but I wondered if anyone had tried the Ergon PC2 pedals that invert the forefoot a bit, has anyone found them anymore comfortable than 'flat' flats IYSWIM.


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## SpokeyDokey (19 Mar 2012)

Popular thread!

I have been giving (too much) thought to this subject for my new bike (returning rider).

In the past I have always used toe clips and straps and been 100% happy with them as a recreational rider. I think I may stay that way too.

One thing that bothers me is the almost macho humour that surrounds the rite of passage of falling off the bike when first using clipless pedals - there are lots of short anecdotes on cycling forums about this.

I am not keen on emulating this. Two reasons; 1) a long time ago I came off of a mountain bike on black ice and it hurt - big time and 2) I would be truly *issed if my nice new bike was damaged in any way.

***

In terms of performance advantages no doubt clipless are more efficient. But in reality for how many people (esp' in the beginners section) does this really matter? Same camp as paying oodles for lighter wheels, lighter components etc. All gets a bit nth degree.

My other passions are watches, hi-fi and hiking. All involve 'gear' of some description and performance improvements but in the end for the vast majority that final few percentages of improvement really doesn't matter a jot.


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## dave r (19 Mar 2012)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Popular thread!
> 
> I have been giving (too much) thought to this subject for my new bike (returning rider).
> 
> ...


The clipless moment is treated as something trivial and a right of passage, but I have heard stories about people hurting themselves badly due to clipless moments, now this is anecdotal evidence and the only one that stuck in my mind was a broken hip, and I don't remember the details now. The thing I don't like about clipless is how securely you are attached to the bike, I'm 60 years old now and I don't bounce like I used to, going down still attached to the bike and hurting myself is something I don't need. I've been on clips and straps since the mid eighties and have them largely sussed out, I'm unlikely to have the equivalent moment to a clipless one with those, though I had one or two when I first used them, I was a lot younger then and wasn't bothered, I would be now though. On performance I have clips and straps on the fixed, the bike that gets the most use, and clipless on the geared bike, the bike that only comes out on sunny Sundays, and find I get no performance advantage with clipless, If I hadn't spent so much on shoes and pedals I would go back to clips and straps on the geared bike.


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## asterix (20 Mar 2012)

mickle said:


> *Contrary to the myth of clip-in (and clips and straps pedals before them) even pro cyclists struggle to 'lift' the rising pedal.* The best that can be acheived in practice is a slight reduction in the weight of the rising leg, which gives the falling leg less to do. There is a slight benefit at the bottom of the stroke, an ability to claw the pedal back which allows for a longer power stroke. It's easier to 'pedal in circles', the stroke becomes less of an up/down treadle action. Clip-ins allow you to spin faster, and more spinny = more aerobic. The real benefit of clips and clip-in pedals is that they reduce the amount of energy required to keep the foot on the pedal, automatically align the foot in the optimal location and prevent the foot from slipping off.
> 
> The limit to the amount of power we can deliver to the pedals is limited by our ability to process oxygen._ Even if we could_ pull up on the pedals at every stroke, it wouldn't be free energy. Clip-in pedals just allow us to be more efficient.


 
That can't be right! I can pull my foot off the clipless pedal on the up stroke if the pressure isn't done up tight enough. Happened half way round the 5 Dales sportive just after a rest station on a steep hill. Not being able to pull up was like being crippled.


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## sparkyman (20 Mar 2012)

I Like flats because I can adjust my footing when changing riding postion. if i was clipped in i would find it anoying not being able to move my feet on the peddle when i felt the need.


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## Nebulous (20 Mar 2012)

[QUOTE 1772985, member: 45"]I've never had a clipless moment.[/quote]

I had quite a few - just shy of double figures I would say. I learned to roll to minimise damage to the bike. I had one torn pair of longs and some road rash on one occasion, but fortunately that was the only injury. I think I probably made a bad beginner choice by going spd-sl and full road shoes. I've been commuting on an old MTB with work shoes and flats, and have now just started on an old steel bike also with flats. I couldn't imagine using my road bike with anything other than clipless though.

I suppose what that says is that humans are pretty adaptable!


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## fossyant (20 Mar 2012)

sparkyman said:


> I Like flats because I can adjust my footing when changing riding postion. if i was clipped in i would find it anoying not being able to move my feet on the peddle when i felt the need.


 
Clipless have 'float' - i.e. you can rotate the heal in and out.- if you mean fore/aft then the best position for the foot is the 'ball' of your foot over the axel.

TBH I'd never be without clipless - even use them towing my daughter on the tag along. So easy to clip and unclip from MTB SPD's. On my road bikes I have the older Looks but both have very strong spring settings - the last thing I want attacking a hill or accellerating away from traffic lights is my foot to come out.

If you want more 'spirited' cycling, then clipless is the best way forward. I'd hate to ride flat out, out of the saddle sprinting without being properly retained. Disaster waiting to happen - Now if you aren't interested in riding fast and just want to pootle about, then the choice is yours.

As for not unclipping in a fall/crash, they do indeed come undone, and are slightly safer than straps if using cleated shoes as you don't always come out of them if the straps are done tight. Clipless just pings out as soon as you or the bike start to take a different direction.


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## lulubel (20 Mar 2012)

SpokeyDokey said:


> One thing that bothers me is the almost macho humour that surrounds the rite of passage of falling off the bike when first using clipless pedals - there are lots of short anecdotes on cycling forums about this.
> 
> I am not keen on emulating this. Two reasons; 1) a long time ago I came off of a mountain bike on black ice and it hurt - big time and 2) I would be truly *issed if my nice new bike was damaged in any way.


 
This is also a part of it for me, although there are some people (my OH, who is otherwise one of the clumsiest people in the world, being one of them) who seem to avoid that particular rite of passage.

The reality, I know, is that the vast majority of clipless falls are slow topples sideways, and you can just put your arm out and catch yourself. I experienced a fall like this when I first raised my saddle above the point where I could get both feet firmly on the floor, and my only injuries were some rather nasty stings from the big patch of nettles that broke my fall! After a big crash recently, and finding I'm still here to tell the tale, I find worrying about the prospect of a slow topple rather silly, but I still do it. But the first scratch on my shiny new bike will definitely be a cause for much distress.

In any case, I've ordered myself some lightweight flat pedals now, and also some Zefal strapless toeclips to try. I may even find I like them.


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## ianrauk (20 Mar 2012)

[QUOTE 1772985, member: 45"]I've never had a clipless moment.[/quote]


You and me both..


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## buddha (20 Mar 2012)

I mainly use 2 bikes.

One, gets used only on country lanes and never in ice and snow - its has SPD-SL's.

The other gets used for everything else, including shopping - and has flat DX-30 pedals. I used to use SPD's on that but after almost landing on my backside walking down stairs, use flats and Specialized Samona shoes. Sometimes my foot does slip a little, or is not aligned perfectly on the pedal, but I can live with that.

Also, in my quest to make this bike look even more ugly (as it gets locked outside a south London Lidl on occasion) I've been able to fit pedal reflectors to the flats.


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## Brandane (21 Mar 2012)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> This is probably worth reading too.


 
The information in that link makes a lot of sense to me, and echoes my thoughts on the use of clipless pedals.


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## tyred (21 Mar 2012)

I overtook a group of weekend warrior types a few weeks ago on a pretty serious climb which lasts for about 5 miles. They had all the gear and fancy carbon bikes. I was riding an ancient steel Peugeot touring bike, in tracksuit bottoms, trainers and flat pedals. 

The reason? They had to get of and walk. I had taken the trouble to equip my bike with a range of gears which allow me, a 15 stone slob, to climb steep hills. The sight of them trying to push their bikes while wearing road cleats on a damp, greasy road surface was hilarious. I couldn't resist shouting "nice day for a walk!" while I passed them.

Obviously clipless pedals make little difference if you don't know how to choose your gear ratios for the terrain you're going to ride.


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## abo (22 Mar 2012)

I'm 100% clipless just because I only have one bike. When I get my second bike I'll have flats on one and SPD's on the other. Oddly I'm not sure which one to put the SPD's on because there are arguements for both bikes being on flats, and both bikes being on SPD's if you get me? I'll probably put the flats back on my current bike and swap the SPD's to the new one I guess


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## VamP (22 Mar 2012)

Bluenite said:


> Jesus uses flats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, but he also wears a helmet... 


As for the flats discussion - my beloved and I keep 1 bike between us that has flats on. Call it a convenience bike, if you like. The thought of riding it like that any more than about 5 miles brings tears to my eyes. In fact I have been know to put eggbeaters on when circumstances dictated that I had to go somewhere more distant.


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## MacB (22 Mar 2012)

VamP said:


> As for the flats discussion - my beloved and I keep 1 bike between us that has flats on. Call it a convenience bike, if you like. *The thought of riding it like that any more than about 5 miles brings tears to my eyes*. In fact I have been know to put eggbeaters on when circumstances dictated that I had to go somewhere more distant.


 
Really, do you think you'd actually cry or just tear up a bit?

Sorry Vam but this is the sort of garbage that gets posted around pedal choices...I've managed plenty of long rides and suffered various types of ride induced discomfort and pain, the latter being related to saddle position novice errors...but my feet have never been a problem.


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## VamP (22 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> Really, do you think you'd actually cry or just tear up a bit?
> 
> Sorry Vam but this is the sort of garbage that gets posted around pedal choices...I've managed plenty of long rides and suffered various types of ride induced discomfort and pain, the latter being related to saddle position novice errors...but my feet have never been a problem.


 
I wouldn't probably truly cry. But I would (and have) change the pedals. I am not really sure why that should be considered garbage. I am not forcing my choices on you.

Flats do feel very inefficient to me. You may have a different experience.

But so far that's just a feeling. Nothing much to separate our differing opinions.


Last year I was training for a duathlon. For various reasons, mainly to do with not wanting to invest in a pair of tri cycling shoes, I decided to do the whole race in trainers and fitted flats (with clips) to my road bike. I have a 10 mile route that I use as my benchmark, which I was training on, with both kind of pedals. I have direct comparisons of the same route on same day, same bike, same weather, clipless and flat. About 1 mph difference. Enough to annoy the hell out of me.

I also race cyclocross. I have tried flats, but found them very insecure AND slower. No one else races flats, despite the obvious advantage they confer on dismounts.

Again, specialist choices. For me clipless are better. You can do what you like... ...you won't catch me describing your choice as garbage.


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## Herzog (22 Mar 2012)

[QUOTE 1776753, member: 45"]I cycled from London to Amsterdam on flats. I'd have preferred spds, but the flats did me no harm.[/quote]

Yep, I've done Brighton - Brussels on flats, no problems. However, this means very little when extrapolated to the general population as we have vastly different muscular structures, fitness levels, bike positions etc. 

I'm pretty sure there's no universal maxim regarding flats vs SPDs...


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## MacB (22 Mar 2012)

VamP said:


> Again, specialist choices. For me clipless are better. You can do what you like... ...you won't catch me describing your choice as garbage.


 
I didn't describe your choices as garbage I described your level of hyperbole as garbage...I'm quite happy with your choice of pedals when it enters my concious at all...what I'm not happy with is the intimation that death and destruction, or at least never ending pain, awaits the users of flat pedals...and yes that is exagerrated for effect. I also have a sneaking suspicion that many denigrating flat pedal use for anything other than short shopping jaunts, probably don't have the level of specific experience, or the pedalling technique, to be able to comment accurately. In other words they are guessing and colouring those guesses with a huge dollop of personal bias.

In fact for such a serious cyclist as yourself I'd probably suggest that flat pedals probably aren't the best choice.


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## lulubel (22 Mar 2012)

Going back to that very interesting link posted a few days ago ..... Here it is again, for the sake of reference:



RecordAceFromNew said:


> This is probably worth reading too.


 
For most people who feel like they can't (or at least really, really hate to) use anything other than clipless, I suspect there's an element of loss of confidence and feeling less secure on the bike in flats, which would explain VamP's loss of speed when using them.



VamP said:


> I have a 10 mile route that I use as my benchmark, which I was training on, with both kind of pedals. I have direct comparisons of the same route on same day, same bike, same weather, clipless and flat. About 1 mph difference. Enough to annoy the hell out of me.


 
If you're used to being clipped in, I can imagine how unsafe it must feel if you're trying to really go for it with flats, and how you'd probably unconsciously hold back a little. I'm certainly not going to argue that flats can be slippery in the wet, and the first time I thought about going clipless was after a particularly unpleasant commute in the rain when my foot slipped off at a particularly dangerous and scary moment. (At the time, I wasn't aware of strapless toeclips, and I'd tried the type with straps, and didn't get on with them at all.) So, I can understand the benefit of clipless when going flat out, or riding in less than dry conditions - like commuting in the rain, or cyclocross.

But, for those of us who are "just" leisure riders, and don't have any goals or challenges other than riding for pleasure, whether to use clipless, clips or flats is entirely personal choice because the only difference is going to be how it makes us feel (since that's the only thing that matters to us).


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## youngoldbloke (22 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> But, for those of us who are "just" leisure riders, and don't have any goals or challenges other than riding for pleasure, whether to use clipless, clips or flats is entirely personal choice because the only difference is going to be how it makes us feel (since that's the only thing that matters to us).


 
It doesn't prove or disprove anything but the (experienced) leisure riders on the club leisure rides that ride on flats are the ones we always have to wait for at the top of the hill - and the one who has recently embraced clipless pedals now waits for them too.


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## Psyclist (22 Mar 2012)

I'm using cage pedals at the moment, not clips or straps on them, they feel okay for what I do...

On the note of flat/caged pedals, what would you say are the best flats to ride in for grip and durability? as I won't be having clipless until later on....


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## MacB (23 Mar 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> It doesn't prove or disprove anything but the (experienced) leisure riders on the club leisure rides that ride on flats are the ones we always have to wait for at the top of the hill - and the one who has recently embraced clipless pedals now waits for them too.


 
too many variables, if you're talking steep out of the saddle climbing then there are definite benefits to being attached to the pedal, I noticed them myself when using them. I didn't notice the same differences for seated climbing, but I believe there's also a difference when hammering or sprinting...I don't really do either so can't tell on that front.

On an anecdotal level I have been on leisure rides where most people waited for me and where few people waited for me and I waited for others...the main difference being my weight and personal fitness. I don't enjoy the experience of having others wait on me and generally try to get my fitness to the required standard or arrange bail out options for myself...I'm pretty self sufficient. But if it ever comes to the point where it's a matter of equipment then I'll make a judgement call then.


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## Banjo (23 Mar 2012)

Use whatever your happy with but don't write off flat pedals as only suitable for short rides. People do Paris Brest Paris on them which is 1200 kms. Personally I do regular 200 km rides quite happilly on them and haven't noticed any overall loss of speed. For touring it avoids the need to carry extra shoes.on Audax rides I would say most but certainly not all riders are using clipped in pedals,some prefer toestraps and some are on flats. Use what U like not what fashion and marketting tells you is best.


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## youngoldbloke (23 Mar 2012)

Banjo said:


> Use what U like not what fashion and marketting tells you is best.


 
The triumph of fashion and marketing since the 1890s - the development of clips and straps, evolving into clipless in the 1970s! Gullible cyclists fooled for over 100 years!
Use whatever you are comfortable with, but don't dismiss them without trying them, and don't accuse those who use them of being fashion slaves.


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## VamP (23 Mar 2012)

lulubel said:


> But, for those of us who are "just" leisure riders, and don't have any goals or challenges other than riding for pleasure, whether to use clipless, clips or flats is entirely personal choice because the only difference is going to be how it makes us feel (since that's the only thing that matters to us).


 
Sure. And to be fair, my beloved doesn't suffer the same degree of flat aversion that I do, although she rides clipless and flats in equal measure.

I would like to set in context that I have 30 odd years of flat riding behind me, and only converted to clipless about a year ago. No going back for me though.


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## VamP (23 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> I didn't describe your choices as garbage I described your level of hyperbole as garbage...I'm quite happy with your choice of pedals when it enters my concious at all...what I'm not happy with is the intimation that death and destruction, or at least never ending pain, awaits the users of flat pedals...and yes that is exagerrated for effect. I also have a sneaking suspicion that many denigrating flat pedal use for anything other than short shopping jaunts, probably don't have the level of specific experience, or the pedalling technique, to be able to comment accurately. In other words they are guessing and colouring those guesses with a huge dollop of personal bias.
> 
> In fact for such a serious cyclist as yourself I'd probably suggest that flat pedals probably aren't the best choice.


 
I've been riding flats (with AND without various straps contraptions for over 30 years). Is describing my feelings at the prospect of riding the slow bike in the house any further than 5 miles really hyperbole? Oh and it's slow for a number of reasons, not just the fact it has flats


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## MacB (23 Mar 2012)

VamP said:


> I've been riding flats (with AND without various straps contraptions for over 30 years). Is describing my feelings at the prospect of riding the slow bike in the house any further than 5 miles really hyperbole? Oh and it's slow for a number of reasons, not just the fact it has flats


 
Yes it is hyperbole as the level of anguish was directed at the flats rather than a group of variables. The intimation being that the 'wonderdrug' was the only thing that could make a poor bike bearable.

Look you're clearly in the born again evangelical phase and my naturally cynical instincts are to add a large pinch of salt. For example you indicated that you did the same local 10 mile ride with the variables ironed out bar the use of flat v clipless pedals. For you this made a 1mph difference which was enough 'to annoy the hell out of you'. Yet reading more closely indicates that they weren't plain flats but flats with clips, so your feet were still attached. So that rings alarm bells, though I accept that it could simply be a case of not having all the info. I can see 1mph(or more) clipless v flats, depending on riding style and pedalling technique, but struggle to see 1mph clipless v toeclips.

I realise that I come across as some evangelical flatty myself but that's not the case, It rarely crosses my mind when I'm riding and I rarely notice what other people are wearing on their feet. However my personal experience has indicated that the pros and cons, as generally expressed via web and anecdata, are inaccurate with heavy bias. I've never noticed, or suffered from, the list of negatives associated with flat pedals and trotted out like some sort of absolute truth:-

feet will slip - mine don't
shins will be gashed - mine are scar free
feet will get sore - nope
long distances are impossible or highly uncomfortable - nonsense
you can't pedal properly - I feel fine
you can't climb hills - I can

I also call bullshit on some of the claims around clipless systems:-

it's night and day difference - not really or at least not for me
once tried you'll never go back - sorry not true
the feeling of being attached to the bike is fantastic - again not my experience I didn't like it
clipless moments are funny - I didn't think so and a cursory net search will turn up some rather serious injuries
pros use them so they must be the best - pros are a different species and shouldn't be used for comparative purposes by any other than those seeking to emulate what they do
pedal attachment has been around for 100+ years so it's not fad or fashion - no-one ever said it was, what was actually said was that it can be fad/fashion for riders that will never be able to extract the full level of benefit they offer

Now I freely acknowledge the climbing superiority out of the saddle and am happy to admit the hard riding/sprint capabilities. I also happily admit that I may use clipless if my riding needs alter. I just feel that pedal 'threads' tend to lack a level of honesty when weighing up the pros and cons and analysing someones needs. There is a strong undercurrent of mockery towards non clipless users with a dollop of inadequacy if they didn't like clipless or are loathe to try them.

Yes the threads on Cyclechat tend to be more balanced but would they be if people like me didn't chime in? Or would they be the free marketing fest for the sellers of pedal systems and shoes that you see elsewhere on the net?


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## youngoldbloke (23 Mar 2012)

"pedal attachment has been around for 100+ years so it's not fad or fashion - no-one ever said it was,* what was actually said was that it can be fad/fashion for riders that will never be able to extract the full level of benefit they offer"*
Where was that? I think a number of flat pedaller posters have put forward the fashion-victim view of clipless users. Personally I need all the help I can get - even if I can't "extract the full level of benefit they offer"


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## MacB (23 Mar 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> "pedal attachment has been around for 100+ years so it's not fad or fashion - no-one ever said it was,* what was actually said was that it can be fad/fashion for riders that will never be able to extract the full level of benefit they offer"*
> Where was that? I think a number of flat pedaller posters have put forward the fashion-victim view of clipless users. Personally I need all the help I can get - even if I can't "extract the full level of benefit they offer"


 
I'm not digging back through but I accept that it may have been implied rather than baldly stated. Plus, whatever works for you is good and I'm happy for you. A question though, would you accept that the 'power', and other, benefits will vary depending on rider and style?

You see this is the crux of my argument, if you're not, or have no future plans to, extracting the full benefits then the 'clipless are better' point starts to lose traction. Don't get me wrong there's absolutely nothing wrong with someone using clipless even if they get no tangible benefit. They may well just prefer the sensation and the pedalling technique it allows...nowt wrong with that. In the same way there's nothing wrong with someone using clipless just because it makes them feel more like a cyclist.

We all apply some level of weighting to our decision making process around our choices. Few of us like to admit to the amount of weight marketing and image can add to that process. That the marketing blurb is freely reinforced by others doesn't make it any less marketing blurb. Hence why I'm so disparaging about 'night and day' difference type claims as they say nothing and take no other factors into account, or dismiss them as irrelevant.


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## VamP (23 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> Yet reading more closely indicates that they weren't plain flats but flats with clips, so your feet were still attached. So that rings alarm bells, though I accept that it could simply be a case of not having all the info. I can see 1mph(or more) clipless v flats, depending on riding style and pedalling technique, but struggle to see 1mph clipless v toeclips.


 
This is clearly a big subject for you 

Do you really struggle to see a difference between rigid soled cycling shoe firmly attached to a pedal and a soft soled trainer vaguely held in place with a bit of nylon? Really?


Oh and my pedant alert tells me that I cannot possibly be 'born-again' with regard to some 'fashion' I had not tried before 


You make some good points, and I respect your (and numerous other cyclists - my soon to be wife's included) preferences with regards to flats. Personally I am hardly a clipless evangelist, but I prefer clipless. To the extent of changing the pedals for longer rides. After all, it only takes a couple of minutes.


Is that still garbage?


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## MacB (23 Mar 2012)

VamP said:


> This is clearly a big subject for you
> 
> Is that still garbage?


 
 nope it's an alltogether more fragrant affair now....it's really not the big subject it seems for me, more of a hobby like some get interested in climate change scientists


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## abo (23 Mar 2012)

youngoldbloke said:


> I always carry my gym kit and shoes separately anyway. Change when I get there. Different shoes for different activities. You don't go to play football wearing your boots do you? Wear your climbing shoes on the journey to the hills?


 
I *have* driven to my spinning class a couple of times in my SPD shoes


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## zizou (23 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> I just feel that pedal 'threads' tend to lack a level of honesty when weighing up the pros and cons and analysing someones needs. There is a strong undercurrent of mockery towards non clipless users with a dollop of inadequacy if they didn't like clipless or are loathe to try them.
> 
> Yes the threads on Cyclechat tend to be more balanced but would they be if people like me didn't chime in? Or would they be the free marketing fest for the sellers of pedal systems and shoes that you see elsewhere on the net?


 

The mockery seems to go both ways with comments directed towards those who prefer clipless over flats as being blinded by fashion and suckered by marketing. If someone says they feel a real, tangible benefit it gets dismissed because they are not a serious enough cyclist capable of being able to exploit the benefits!

If someone doesn't get on with clipless pedals then there should be no shame in that (some riders do look down their nose at those with road bikes and flat pedals, but these are the sort of people who will look down their nose at other things too...if it isn't the pedals they will find something else to be snobbish about like a saddle bag or spacers in the stem etc thats just how some people are unfortunately). However if someone is clipless-curious then I would always encourage them to try them out and see if they get the benefit too that I and many other riders genuinely feel when they made the switch themself. I dont feel the benefit because of fashion either - i'm wearing lycra shorts, a colour clashing top with rear pockets stuffed with bananas and flapback, a helmet that makes my head look like a mushroom and sunglasses that only Bono would choose to wear....what my shoes look like when im cycling is the least of my worries!


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## MacB (23 Mar 2012)

zizou said:


> The mockery seems to go both ways with comments directed towards those who prefer clipless over flats as being blinded by fashion and suckered by marketing. If someone says they feel a real, tangible benefit it gets dismissed because they are not a serious enough cyclist capable of being able to exploit the benefits!
> 
> If someone doesn't get on with clipless pedals then there should be no shame in that (some riders do look down their nose at those with road bikes and flat pedals, but these are the sort of people who will look down their nose at other things too...if it isn't the pedals they will find something else to be snobbish about like a saddle bag or spacers in the stem etc thats just how some people are unfortunately). However if someone is clipless-curious then I would always encourage them to try them out and see if they get the benefit too that I and many other riders genuinely feel when they made the switch themself. I dont feel the benefit because of fashion either - i'm wearing lycra shorts, a colour clashing top with rear pockets stuffed with bananas and flapback, a helmet that makes my head look like a mushroom and sunglasses that only Bono would choose to wear....what my shoes look like when im cycling is the least of my worries!


 
and that's a perfect example of CC balance 

In my defence I'd like to claim that the 'counter mockery' is only ever retaliatory but I'd be lying


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## VamP (23 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> ...like some get interested in climate change scientists


 
Or even just one in particular


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## Crackle (23 Mar 2012)

MacB said:


> .......
> feet will get sore - nope....


 
The only time I ever got sore feet was when I borrowed a bike in Germany and belted off down the local cycle path. The next day, I had sore arches and had to hobble through the airport. Now I put this down to a couple of things

1) the soft shoes I was wearing
2) Using soft shoes after using stiff soled cycling shoes
3) being pretty fit at the time and putting a lot of power through my soft soled shoes
4) shoot flat pedals on the borrowed bike

It's never happened again but it was sore for a few days, so I choose my pedals and shoes carefully now.


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## threebikesmcginty (23 Mar 2012)

Has anyone tried a bike with clip system on one pedal and a flat on the other?

Go around in circles?


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## MacB (23 Mar 2012)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Has anyone tried a bike with clip system on one pedal and a flat on the other?
> 
> Go around in circles?


 
You really have no idea do you? this is how you train properly, it allows you to work on each leg seperately and overcome any inherent imbalance. Yes you may end up with one huge and one skinny leg but your pedalling motion will be perfectly balanced.


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## tyred (23 Mar 2012)

All you need to do is to use some super glue to glue your pedals to the shoes. Much cheaper than buying clipless pedals.

Makes walking up the stairs at bed time a bit difficult though with a bike stuck on your feet.


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## Mr. Jaggers (25 Mar 2013)

lulubel said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. This has turned into a really interesting discussion, and I'm quite surprised there are so many people out there using flats.
> 
> I'm going to stick to mine - well, get some for my new bike. It feels like quite a relief to have stopped pressurising myself to go clipless!


I have just bought a Boardman CX Team. I am new to cycling and didn't know what to do about pedals. At present I have flats with pins, which are very grippy and seem fine off road, which is where I have mostly been. My question is - for a cx bike, which is on the road as much as in the woods, what kind of clipless would i go for? Road or MTB. Can anyone advise? Is this just down to personal choice in my circumstance?


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## raindog (26 Mar 2013)

Seven pages to say that some people like flat pedals, and some people like clipless.


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## mickle (26 Mar 2013)

Mr. Jaggers said:


> I have just bought a Boardman CX Team. I am new to cycling and didn't know what to do about pedals. At present I have flats with pins, which are very grippy and seem fine off road, which is where I have mostly been. My question is - for a cx bike, which is on the road as much as in the woods, what kind of clipless would i go for? Road or MTB. Can anyone advise? Is this just down to personal choice in my circumstance?


Seek and ye shall find.


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## Christopher (26 Mar 2013)

Useful post, mickle. Not.

Jaggers, it depends if your off-road is going to be very muddy, but I would recommend some form of MTB pedal with stiff shoes, like Specialised MTB shoes and Shimano M520 pedals - I use that combination on- and off-road and it works great. However, if you are going to do muddy off-road then it might be worth looking at Eggbeater pedals or Time MTB pedals as they both have a repuatation for not easily clogging with mud, but are also more expensive than the 520's. The 520's are excellent pedals but do have a tendancy to clog in mud - that's only a factor if you do muddy off road though.


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## wilko (26 Mar 2013)

It's flats for me now. DMR V8's. When I had my road bike I started with flats and then went to clipless. All was fine until I had a bit of a clipless moment. Bashed my elbow and bent my bike! That probably wouldn't have happened if I was using flats. I don't ride so much on the road now, sold my roady and bought a 29er and I mostly ride along the local towpath. I wouldn't want another clipless moment as I would probably end up in the drink. But for my type of riding I find the flats more than adequate


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## RiflemanSmith (26 Mar 2013)

What are those pedals that are flat on one side and have cleats on the other?


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## wilko (26 Mar 2013)

Shimano do some. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shimano-Pdm324-Single-Sided-Spd/dp/B000NORMU4?SubscriptionId=AKIAIMQHVMQOCODBLBWQ&tag=foxstart6-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B000NORMU4

Cheaper on Wiggle! http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-m324-combination-pedals/


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## RiflemanSmith (26 Mar 2013)

Cheers for that.
So I would have to buy the cleats and a pair of shoes and the cleats go on the shoe like you would put studs on a rugby boot?


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## mickle (26 Mar 2013)

Christopher said:


> Useful post, mickle. Not.


Yah. Thanks Christopher. Frankly, it's the less than useful answer that such a stupid question deserves TBF. Why would someone post a question on a thread (which has all the information one could possibly need on the subject) without first reading the thread?


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## mickle (26 Mar 2013)

Christopher said:


> Useful post, mickle. Not.
> 
> Jaggers, it depends if your off-road is going to be very muddy, but I would recommend some form of MTB pedal with stiff shoes, like Specialised MTB shoes and Shimano M520 pedals - I use that combination on- and off-road and it works great. However, if you are going to do muddy off-road then it might be worth looking at Eggbeater pedals or Time MTB pedals as they both have a repuatation for not easily clogging with mud, but are also more expensive than the 520's. The 520's are excellent pedals but do have a tendancy to clog in mud - that's only a factor if you do muddy off road though.


 
And your post, Mr Clever, _didn't answer the question_ - which was 'Do I need clipless pedals and if so should I use a road or off-road system'.

To which the answer is, obviously, no. But if you do - an off-road set up is more versatile and easier to live with.

And anyway, it's illegal to wear road pedals and shoes in combination with flat bars.


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## Christopher (26 Mar 2013)

Mickle, the bit I was replying to was in judder's post: "My question is - for a cx bike, which is on the road as much as in the woods, what kind of clipless would i go for?" rather than the OP by lulubel. In any case I at least _tried_ to answer the question rather than just posting an obscure remark. We should be encourtaging peeps to cycle, not sniping.


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## MontyVeda (26 Mar 2013)

i use flat pedals, and i wouldn't have it any other way.


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## wilko (26 Mar 2013)

RiflemanSmith said:


> Cheers for that.
> So I would have to buy the cleats and a pair of shoes and the cleats go on the shoe like you would put studs on a rugby boot?


Most shoes come with cleats. You would have to make sure your shoes/cleats are compatible with your pedals. The cleats just screw into the soles of your shoes.


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## MacB (26 Mar 2013)

as part of making your choice you should head on over and read Gregs thread about how many falls people have had in the last year or so. Apart from the usual stuff we all face on the roads there are two that stand out:-

1. persisting in cycling on normal tyres when there's ice around
2. failure to unclip or unclip correctly


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## youngoldbloke (26 Mar 2013)

wilko said:


> Most shoes *pedals* come with cleats. You would have to make sure your shoes/cleats are compatible with your pedals*/cleats*. The cleats just screw into the soles of your shoes, *as long as they are compatible with them*


ftfy


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## wilko (26 Mar 2013)

Ah, well I got that arse about face didn't I!!....ftfy?


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## mickle (26 Mar 2013)

wilko said:


> Most shoes come with cleats. You would have to make sure your shoes/cleats are compatible with your pedals. The cleats just screw into the soles of your shoes.


Noope. The cleats come with the pedals (or may be purchased separately), they do not come with the shoes.


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## wilko (26 Mar 2013)

mickle said:


> Noope. The cleats come with the pedals (or may be purchased separately), they do not come with the shoes.


See my post above!


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## mickle (26 Mar 2013)

wilko said:


> See my post above!


Damn!

:-)


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## youngoldbloke (26 Mar 2013)

wilko said:


> See my post above!


- and mine!


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## Nigelnaturist (28 Mar 2013)

I have just started using clipless (I had clips) I am faster, though there are other factors involved there, weight and fitness, tyres, tyre pressure, gearing.
I struggled getting into them initially, and whilst still not first time its getting better, never had a problem unclipping (again I think due to using clips) the one thing I have notice and this goes back to being more connected to the bike, is you can feel any transmission faults ect. through the pedals, I built my own cassette from two different ones, and you can tell the difference between the gears.


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## flatflr (28 Mar 2013)

I have flat on the MTB as I like to be able to put my feet down without thinking, and A530 single sided on the road bike as I have quite a few junctions and traffic lights in town before I get to some open roads, and will clip in one foot and keep the other on the flat side until I'm clear of town. Plan is that when I'm more used to cleats I'll swap the A530s over to the MTB and go fully clipless on the road bike.


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## Nomadski (28 Mar 2013)

I seriously cant decide. One day I'm sure I'm going to go for SPD's, the next I'm looking for Gore Tex trainers for my V12 pedals... I have so many reservations about SPD's yet everyone I speak to says they tried them and would go without now.

How much is this just a myth being perpetuated? I know there are various articles out there claiming all performance increases to be a placebo effect, but so many cyclists cant be wrong, can they?

What worries me the most is getting the angle wrong and doing my knees in. I stand naturally with my toes pointing slightly outwards, but paying close attention to my feet position on my pedals today as I rode I found my feet to be almost completely straight forward? Is it normal for your riding position to be different to your standing position regarding feet angle?

Also, Im eventually going to be upping my mileage to take part in a charity 100 mile ride, are SPD's (and their shoes) going to offer me more comfort and performance than my V12s?


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## RhythMick (28 Mar 2013)

I tried SPDs, but realised I just wasn't enjoying my rides as much because I was clipped in. Gave it 5 months too. 

I now use light, grippy Wellgo MG1s on both my bikes and enjoy the whole thing much more.


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## matthat (28 Mar 2013)

I would like to try spd's but don't really fancy buying 3 sets of peddles! I currently use flats with toe clips on but i've taken the straps off so i've just got rubber clips that are open sided which means i can where different trainers and get feet out with ease!! my other problem with cycling shoes is that i'm size 13 feet and struggle to buy normal shoes and trainers so can't be bothered trying to buy specialist sports shoes!! Steelys for work is bad enough!!!!


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## themosquitoking (28 Mar 2013)

matthat said:


> I would like to try spd's but don't really fancy buying 3 sets of peddles! I currently use flats with toe clips on but i've taken the straps off so i've just got rubber clips that are open sided which means i can where different trainers and get feet out with ease!! my other problem with cycling shoes is that i'm size 13 feet and struggle to buy normal shoes and trainers so can't be bothered trying to buy specialist sports shoes!! Steelys for work is bad enough!!!!


 
Chop your toes off and you'll be alright.


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## matthat (28 Mar 2013)

themosquitoking said:


> Chop your toes off and you'll be alright.


Trust me i've come close to that many a time!!


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## spooks (28 Mar 2013)

I can't decide whether to buy some flats or not. I'm perfectly happy with my SPDs but have a feeling that when I do the London-Brighton ride they'll just be a pain, especially on the snarled up Ditchling Beacon. Don't really want to fork out for something I'm only going to use once or twice a year though.


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## Nigelnaturist (28 Mar 2013)

To be honest I thought about going clipless for a long time, I dont have the problems I thought I might, I do find them easier than clips.


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## Typhon (28 Mar 2013)

I have a love hate relationship with my SPDs. It feels so much better to cycle with them, you feel so much more connected with the bike and pedalling just feels easier. However I don't feel safe in them, knowing if I have to stop suddenly I can't just put my foot down. They're also a massive pain in town, at traffic lights or junctions. Every time I get on my MTB, which has flat pedals with toe clips I think "oh this is so much easier" when I'm setting off and having to stop at the first junction. Then a mile down the road I start thinking "this is rubbish, I don't feel connected to the bike at all".


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## themosquitoking (28 Mar 2013)

matthat said:


> Trust me i've come close to that many a time!!


 
Do it, it'll be funny.


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## Mr. Jaggers (30 Mar 2013)

Christopher said:


> Useful post, mickle. Not.
> 
> Jaggers, it depends if your off-road is going to be very muddy, but I would recommend some form of MTB pedal with stiff shoes, like Specialised MTB shoes and Shimano M520 pedals - I use that combination on- and off-road and it works great. However, if you are going to do muddy off-road then it might be worth looking at Eggbeater pedals or Time MTB pedals as they both have a repuatation for not easily clogging with mud, but are also more expensive than the 520's. The 520's are excellent pedals but do have a tendancy to clog in mud - that's only a factor if you do muddy off road though.


Thanks Christopher, much appreciated.


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## Mr. Jaggers (30 Mar 2013)

WAC


mickle said:


> Yah. Thanks Christopher. Frankly, it's the less than useful answer that such a stupid question deserves TBF. Why would someone post a question on a thread (which has all the information one could possibly need on the subject) without first reading the thread?


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## Phoenix Lincs (31 Mar 2013)

Happy Easter everybody 

I've only been cycling since May and have been using toe clips. I'm trying to take my training up a gear (so to speak) to take part in London100, so have just ordered a clipless system to try. I may change them back to flat if I don't get on with them but want to give them a try. 

I've had my shoes for a while and they DID come with cleats to fit if I wanted to, but I'm also expecting the pedals to have them too. 

On another note, the sun is out today - YAY.


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## SpokeyDokey (31 Mar 2013)

It does get repeated on here every now and again but it does not seem to fuel too many riders imagination. There really is an answer to all the clip-less moment problems I'm going to type it big this time as the world will be a safer place if:you buy some of these...

*Shimano Multi-release Cleats - you will not even be aware you are riding clip-less!*


There, nice and big.

I had the standard cleats for a few weeks and they were *loody awful. Whilst not experiencing the "Full Clippie" I had a few close shaves and that was enough for me.

Here they are - if you are worried about or having trouble with clip-less just go get!

http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-SH5...aign=Adwords&gclid=CJjxq97KprYCFW_KtAod6B4AIw


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## mickle (31 Mar 2013)

Worth repeating;

THE SHOES RUSE
In this extract from his book JUST RIDE, Grant Petersen of Rivendell Bicycle Works explodes some of the myths surrounding clip-in pedals

The shoes ruse. 

A firm attachment to the pedals was helpful and almost necessary in the early days of bike racing, when all bikes had fixed gears (no freewheel, no coasting), and the gears were low by today’s standards. Then, once the racers got up to 18 miles per hour or so, they were spinning the pedals like human roadrunners, and if a foot came off the pedal, it was harder to slow the bike down and find the pedals again. Toe clips, straps, and cleats evolved to secure the foot and reduce the danger of runaway pedals, and eventually the freewheel eliminated that danger altogether. But by then, the clips and straps were entrenched, and there was no going back. By 1980, if you rode a bike and didn’t use toe clips, straps, and cleats, you weren’t serious.
Then, in the mid ’80s, LOOK—a ski boot and binding maker—introduced ski-binding technology to bikes, with the first popular clipless pedal-and-shoe system. Pro racers took to it, other manufacturers followed, and within three years virtually every road racer in the First World had converted. It spilled over to mountain-bike racing, and today even a few gullible commuters have adopted them. When I see ten-year-olds riding with clipless shoes and pedals, I fear for the future.
Proponents say:
With clipless, there’s more power to the pedal because it’s not being absorbed by a soft and flexible shoe sole.
With clipless, it’s easier to apply power all around the circular pedal stroke.
Neither is true, though.
As long as your pedals aren’t dinky - say, as long as they’re 2.5 x 3.5 inches, or about the size of a compact digital camera - any shoe does the job without flexing, because the shoe is supported by the pedal. If the pedal can’t flex, the shoe can’t - no matter how flexy it may be just out of the box. Besides, the part of your foot that’s behind the pedal can’t flex while you’re pedaling, because your foot mechanics won’t allow it.
The only riders who benefit from clipless pedals are racers, and only because their pedals are so small and slippery. If you don’t ride tiny, slippery pedals, you don’t need stiff, cleated shoes.
And the 360-degrees-of-power argument is just as weak. In studies where efficient, pro pedal-ers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us that nobody pulls up on the backstroke. The most efficient pedalers just push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do. (They still push down on the upward-moving pedal - not a good thing, because effectively one leg is fighting the other - but the best pedalers push down less.) Now, if they don’t pull up, you don’t pull up, and if you don’t pull up, there’s no 360 degrees of power, and no biomechanical/physiological reason to lock your foot to the pedal. 
The benefits of pedaling free far outweigh any real or imagined benefits of being locked in. They are as follows:
You can wear any casual shoe in your closet - whatever your mood, your outfit, and the weather calls for. You don’t have to go find your “cycling shoes” because you won’t have invested in techie two-hundred-dollar pedals that require them.
Your muscles last longer. Moving your foot about the pedal shifts the load, even if slightly, to different muscles, and spreads the load around. Sprint up hills on the balls of your feet and, on long-seated climbs, push with the pedal centered almost under your arch. It’s not a turbocharged, magic sweet spot, but it feels better and more natural, and you can’t do it if you’re locked in.
You reduce the chance of a repetitive stress injury, because your feet naturally move around more, changing your biomechanics.
You get off and on easier at stoplights; there’s no twisting to get out of your pedals, no fussing to get back in.
You can walk in stores without walking on your heels. You can run! You aren’t handicapped by expensive and weird-looking shoes.
Riding “free” isn’t new or revolutionary, and it’s not just a grumpy stab at the established order. It’s normal, it’s natural - it’s the way you rode as a kid, the way most of the planet rides, and the way you’d ride if you weren’t under the racing influence. Can you imagine yourself - after years or decades of perfectly uneventful happy riding in regular shoes and pedals - concluding that you’d be better off riding in shoes that didn’t work as well off the bike, or on pedals that required special shoes?
I know - of course - that it helps to be firmly attached to the pedal when you’re sprinting in the rain (your foot may slip off the pedals without a fixed connection), or hopping over a dead raccoon, or hiking the bike up over a curb without getting off. But giving up normal shoes for a few rare circumstances like these doesn’t make sense.
From JUST RIDE by Grant Petersen ISBN-13: 978-0761155584

Grant Petersen is founder and chief honcho at Rivendell Bike Works - www.rivbike.com


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## Trail Child (31 Mar 2013)

City/cruiser bike - flats
MTB - flats
Road bike - Speedplays


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## GetAGrip (31 Mar 2013)

I use toe clips + straps on my bikes and feel comfortable most of the time, except for long climbs. Sometimes on long hills/climbs, I take my feet out and push down more about the arch area of the foot. This gives me more comfort and seemingly more power. I have however, felt slightly ashamed when doing this, as I always feel it to be a bit of a cycling no no.
I don't think I would want to even try clipless, as just thinking about them brings on a claustrophobic type panic feeling being so physically attached to the bike.


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## Nomadski (31 Mar 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> It does get repeated on here every now and again but it does not seem to fuel too many riders imagination. There really is an answer to all the clip-less moment problems I'm going to type it big this time as the world will be a safer place if:you buy some of these...
> 
> *Shimano Multi-release Cleats - you will not even be aware you are riding clip-less!*
> 
> ...


 
I think you may have just quelled my hesitation. Thank you.

SPD shoes - any recommendations anyone?


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## SpokeyDokey (31 Mar 2013)

Nomadski said:


> I think you may have just quelled my hesitation. Thank you.
> 
> SPD shoes - any recommendations anyone?


 
Budget?

I have these and they are spot on - I like the velcro tab as it battens down the laces nice and secure.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=70096

Good luck with whatever you get.

These pedals are good and you can get them for under £20 if you shop around:

http://www.probikekit.com/uk/shiman...gle_base_gbp&gclid=CJqygeb4p7YCFUbMtAodPT4A1Q


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## Nomadski (31 Mar 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Budget?
> 
> I have these and they are spot on - I like the velcro tab as it battens down the laces nice and secure.
> 
> ...


 
Cheers for that, I'm already decided on the m540 pedals, think they are very similar to the m520's you linked to.

Going to be trying shoes on before I order anything online but will check yours out, am also looking at these - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-rt82-touring-shoes/

As for budget, am prepared to pay whatever for a damn good shoe as they will have to serve me well.

Last thing, Im gauging overshoes based on other replies in the past, but does anyone wear anything like this for those rainy days - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-mw81-gore-tex-winter-mountain-bike-boots/


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## SpokeyDokey (1 Apr 2013)

Nomadski said:


> Cheers for that, I'm already decided on the m540 pedals, think they are very similar to the m520's you linked to.
> 
> Going to be trying shoes on before I order anything online but will check yours out, am also looking at these - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-rt82-touring-shoes/
> 
> ...


 
I had a look at some of the smooth soled SPD shoes too but was not keen on the lack of a tread - I have to walk my bike up a rough tracked hill back to the house and it can be slippery at times! If I am to be perfectly honest I was also not keen on the look of them either - although logically that doesn't matter as they are bike shoes not fashion items.


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## rovers1875 (1 Apr 2013)

All my bike have flats. And the reason is "I like them" have never felt the need to change. They work just fine, I can wear what ever footwear I want. And unless I have worn my leather soled brogues (for the office) I've never had any feet slipping problems


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## RhythMick (15 Apr 2013)

rovers1875 said:


> All my bike have flats. And the reason is "I like them" have never felt the need to change. They work just fine, I can wear what ever footwear I want. And unless I have worn my leather soled brogues (for the office) I've never had any feet slipping problems



+1. When I took up cycling I went SPD because I didn't know much and was led by the experts. For me, they just ruined my rides. All the fun went out. I now have Wellgo MG1 on both my bikes, my wife too.


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## Shut Up Legs (15 Apr 2013)

RE: _The Shoes Ruse_, the extract mickle quoted above failed to mention something: when you're using platform pedals, your ankles are working to keep your feet on the pedals. I was developing Achilles tendon issues when using platform pedals, because I was averaging over 15,000km per year cycling. As soon as I switched to SPD pedals, the developing tendonitis disappeared, because my ankles could now relax. I'm no podiatrist, but this seems to me to be more than just coincidence. Of course, if any of you have another explanation for why my tendon issues suddenly disappeared, I'm ready to listen.


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## albion (15 Apr 2013)

Am sure it can happen.

Got to agree with much of what the Shoe Ruse says.
In all my years using cleats and shoes I can't say I ever did any work on the up-stroke.


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## Banjo (15 Apr 2013)

victor said:


> RE: _The Shoes Ruse_, the extract mickle quoted above failed to mention something: when you're using platform pedals, your ankles are working to keep your feet on the pedals. I was developing Achilles tendon issues when using platform pedals, because I was averaging over 15,000km per year cycling. As soon as I switched to SPD pedals, the developing tendonitis disappeared, because my ankles could now relax. I'm no podiatrist, but this seems to me to be more than just coincidence. Of course, if any of you have another explanation for why my tendon issues suddenly disappeared, I'm ready to listen.


 
If the flat platforms are slippery you will be using energy tensing up to keep your feet in place. If the pedals are spiky enough to eliminate any slipping you can relax again. I have been using flat platform pedals for about a year now after several years with SPD and havent suffered any ill efects.

If SPDs works for you then fine, dont fix what isnt broke but I had multiple reasons for changing to flat pedals and despite initial concerns have not had any problems or noticeable drop in average speed.


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## Gravity Aided (17 Apr 2013)

If this were the States, and you just quoted Grant Petersen in a forum, this thread would have about 20 pages going for it before the controversy died down, only to awaken like some sleeping dragon the next time his name is mentioned. I think he does a nice job of defining a certain lifestyle and bicycle culture. I prefer flat pedals, sometimes with toe clips. Cleats seem to exacerbate foot problems, not the least of which is American size 14.


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## MacB (17 Apr 2013)

Oh I've read a few of those and they are quite amusing, I found Grant and his perspective quite refreshing. I don't agree with all of his ideas but it's easy to see why he can get under peoples skin so much. There are things that people hate to hear as they think they undermine their own decisions around spending and perceived value.

I wonder if there's been any statistical work done, I know they did in golf a few years ago. Comparing equipment advances against ability and found that average handicaps were actually slightly higher now. Clearly it was far from scientifically accurate as there were variables that were impossible to monitor or even take into account. But it showed that the biggest gains were in golf ball technology which you could maybe equate to bicycle tyres. It also showed that gains were far from universal with the pros and elite amateurs seeing far greater differences than the average club amateur.

Still I find it quite believable that the better you are, and the better your physical condition/dedication, then the more you can get out of equipment improvements.


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## albion (17 Apr 2013)

" but it's easy to see why he can get under peoples skin so much. "

Yeh, uniformity develops cohesion so the group aspire to be 'same'.
I'd go with 'you don't look professional if you are not using them.


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## Hitchington (17 Apr 2013)

Flats for my commute and journeys during work and clipless for long distance rides/touring.


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## LomoMark (24 Apr 2013)

I'm the only one of a group of six of us who uses flats. Everyone else is on SPDs. I just cant bring myself to have my feet tethered and frequently have enjoyed the ability to put a foot down when I need to without thinking about it (Usually when crashing out of control). They do seem to pull away from me on the long hill climbs though, even the ones who are less fit. They laugh at me.... then, later when they forget they are clipped in and fall over I get to laugh back.... I guess there are pro's and cons to them.


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## threebikesmcginty (24 Apr 2013)

rovers1875 said:


> All my bike have flats. And the reason is "I like them" have never felt the need to change. They work just fine, I can wear what ever footwear I want. And unless I have worn my leather soled brogues (for the office) I've never had any feet slipping problems


 
I can't even walk in leather soled shoes let alone cycle.


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## MaxInc (24 Apr 2013)

Idea of SPDs frightens me especially after witnessing a biker falling on his side in front of me at the traffic light ... he must have really hated them at that time too. Don't think I'll be trying them anytime soon.


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## John-Ellis (24 Apr 2013)

I have always had flats, my mate is doing his best to convince me that cleats are much better, he may be right in what he says about better pedalling up hills but I like wearing my normal trainers, my feet dont slip and if im struggling up a hill I drop a gear or two, so I cant see myself investing in cleats.


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## flatflr (28 Apr 2013)

Fitted my first pair of SPD-SL peddles on the road bike (after using SPD which will go on the MTB), took a bit of time getting used to clipping in as quite different from the SPDs. I had cleats fitted to the shoes by the LBS, legs (knees in particular) are feeling the best they even have after a 56 mile ride. I could have got the peddles cheaper from Wiggle but the personal service from the LBS was well worth it


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## themosquitoking (28 Apr 2013)

What made you go for those spd sl over spd?


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## flatflr (28 Apr 2013)

Just to up-spec, SPDs were M530 so I could get used to the whole clip in & out thing but have a flat to be able to fall back on if I didn't get the cleat engaged first time. The plan was always to move those to the MTB as I like to be able to choose to ride clipped in or flat depending on conditions.


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## themosquitoking (28 Apr 2013)

Just bought my first pair of clipless and they're m530's so glad to hear you got on with them. I've bought them for the same reasons you did. In what way exactly though have you up-specced? I only ask because i don't understand what the real difference is between spd and spd sl, why would you deliberiteky choose a shoe you can't walk in over one you can when you're still attached to the pedal?


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## themosquitoking (28 Apr 2013)

themosquitoking said:


> Just bought my first pair of clipless and they're m530's so glad to hear you got on with them. I've bought them for the same reasons you did. In what way exactly though have you up-specced? I only ask because i don't understand what the real difference is between spd and spd sl, why would you *deliberiteky* choose a shoe you can't walk in over one you can when you're still attached to the pedal?


 
Not sure what happened there.


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## flatflr (28 Apr 2013)

I found that I get a bit more sideways movement (float) with the SPD-SL peddles which feels good when on a longer ride (only done one ride so far and it did feel good), with the SPD it's totally locked in. Walking with the SPD-SL cleat is a little awkward but not all that bad.


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## themosquitoking (28 Apr 2013)

flatflr said:


> I found that I get a bit more sideways movement (float) with the SPD-SL peddles which feels good when on a longer ride (only done one ride so far and it did feel good), with the SPD it's totally locked in. Walking with the SPD-SL cleat is a little awkward but not all that bad.


Ok i didn't know that, does the amount of float you get depend on how tight the spd release is done up?


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## Herbie (28 Apr 2013)

lulubel said:


> And I mean just flat pedals, not toe clips!
> 
> After nearly 3 years of "going to go clipless when I have some spare cash for the pedals and shoes," I've finally realised the reason I haven't done it is because I like my flat pedals. It's a good thing because I'm building a new bike, and have spent the last couple of evenings looking at SPD pedals online and trying to decide which ones to buy. After my ride today, I realised there's nothing wrong with flat pedals, I don't ride in the wet and my feet don't slip, I like riding in normal shoes, and I like being able to get a foot down very quickly if I need to.
> 
> ...


 
My pedals swing both ways but i prefer the flat side...have had a few mishaps with the clipless but they are good when its wet and slippy


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## buggi (28 Apr 2013)

reason to use flats... coz you don't like being attached to your bike.

reason to go clipless:
1. more effective pedalling
2. stops the chance of slipping off pedals when standing up (eg if going up hill)
3. the shoes are stiff and therefore, you don't get strain on the bottom half of your foot which can cause problems later on in life if you cycle a lot. 
4. NICE shoes 

i rode on flats for 3 years before i went clipless (SPDs because they are double sided) and although i was crapping myself for the first month, i wouldn't change them now, they are second nature.


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## flatflr (29 Apr 2013)

themosquitoking said:


> Ok i didn't know that, does the amount of float you get depend on how tight the spd release is done up?


Yellow cleats give some float, red have no float.


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## kedab (29 Apr 2013)

flatflr said:


> Yellow cleats give some float, red have no float.


 i didn't know that. you learn something new every day - I've been riding with yellow cleats for well over a year. I knew they had float but not that red cleats did not. note to self: must pay more attention to bike shop staff when they explain stuff, rather than drooling over shiny bikes.


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## Venod (29 Apr 2013)

Used to use Look clip-less on the road bike for years, but now I run MTB SPD's on all my bikes I like the ability to walk easily in MTB shoes, I had a brief try of flats on the MTB, but couldn't get on with them off road, too much slipping & bouncing about on the pedals for my liking, I have some of those plate inserts that turn the SPDs into normal pedals but never use them.


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## MacB (29 Apr 2013)

buggi said:


> reason to use flats... coz you don't like being attached to your bike.
> 
> reason to go clipless:
> 1. more effective pedalling
> ...


 
WARNING - the above post may contain nuts some subjective opinion masquerading as fact


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## youngoldbloke (29 Apr 2013)

MacB said:


> WARNING - the above post may contain nuts some subjective opinion masquerading as fact


- you mean this bit - _reason to use flats... coz you don't like being attached to your bike._?


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## malcermie (29 Apr 2013)

Finally made the leap to clip-on spd-sl's wouldn't go back to flats now, rides of 50+ miles feel so much more comfortable.


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## Ian H (29 Apr 2013)

I'm puzzled by the difficulty some people have releasing from clipless pedals. I use single release cleats the lowest tension. They're secure enough for fixed (and I can assure you that climbing on fixed you _do_ pull up on the pedals), and yet, coming to a halt, I can put my foot down without even having to think about it.


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## buggi (30 Apr 2013)

Ian H said:


> I'm puzzled by the difficulty some people have releasing from clipless pedals. I use single release cleats the lowest tension. They're secure enough for fixed (and I can assure you that climbing on fixed you _do_ pull up on the pedals), and yet, coming to a halt, I can put my foot down without even having to think about it.


 
its very simple. it's more natural to release the foot in the 6 o'clock position, but to balance the bike, it's more natural to put the foot down that's in the 12 o'clock position. therefore, people release the wrong foot, and then try to put the foot down that's still attached to the pedal. 

that did *not* happen to me 3 times before i sussed it.


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## ukbikes (1 May 2013)

I started out using clips on my MTB but then changed to DMR V12 Magnesium pedals, beautiful beasts and I'll never go back!


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## Nomadski (1 May 2013)

Bikes.org.uk said:


> I started out using clips on my MTB but then changed to DMR V12 Magnesium pedals, beautiful beasts and I'll never go back!


 
V12's are awesome. However mine are soon to be retired as I will one day finally attach the clipless pedals I bought some 3 weeks ago!


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## Nebulous (2 May 2013)

I use both. Roadbike for training/leisure/competing with spd-sls. I had approaching double figures of clipless moments before I mastered them, I'm not proud to say. Mostly slow or no speed topples. Touring bike commuting / work use and when roadbike is awaiting parts for repair. Flats that came as standard. I've argued before that there isn't a great deal of difference. I've achieved some decent strava times on both bikes, despite tourer being about 5 kgs heavier, more if you count the panniers.

However I've been fed up of the weather and have been going to the gym and using a wattbike. For the first time ever I'm able to measure my output accurately. I started with my trainers that I use with my flats and used toeclips on the wattbike. I then found you can remove the plastic platform that comes with the bike and clip-in so started taking my road shoes. It has made 8-10 watts of difference for me, in favour of being clipped on. Not a great deal, but enough to convince me that being clipped in is worth it.


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