# Rubbish ability to climb out of the saddle



## Mr_K_Dilkington (30 Mar 2014)

A bit of background on me. I've only been cycling for a couple of months (after years of absolutely no exercise to speak of), but have seen pretty good improvements with the cycling. Just to give an idea of my overall abilities - I can lap Richmond Park in 21:47 (http://www.strava.com/activities/124932137) and today did an 80 mile ride from Reading to West London with 4,203 feet of climbing at an average speed of 14.5mph (http://www.strava.com/activities/125377534).

My question is about climbing using the power of my legs, specifically climbing out of the saddle.

One thing I'm quite aware of at this point is my really shoddy ability to climb when put of the saddle (on longish or fairly steep climbs at least). I can sit down and plug away at climbs no problem, but trying to get some power down out of the saddle, to mix things up using different muscle groups or to emphasise the power in my legs over my cardiovascular system for a while is just not a pretty sight. 

I'll shift up a couple of gears on the rear sprocket as I get out of the saddle to try and give it some, but my legs fade really quickly. Even on the lower gears, I can't maintain much time out of the saddle, whereas I can sit down and plug away at the climb without too much problem.

Even in the saddle, I feel like the strength on my legs holds me back long before my breathing and heart rate is really red lining it.

How would I train to be better at this (and generally to have more strength in the legs when climbing)? 

Simply climb more hills? High resistance, high intensity interval training? Something else?


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## vickster (30 Mar 2014)

Squats apparently help. But learn to do them properly so you don't bugger your knees


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## Mr_K_Dilkington (30 Mar 2014)

vickster said:


> Squats apparently help. But learn to do them properly so you don't bugger your knees



Any idea what I should be going for with squatting? Just bodyweight sqauts with high reps? Heavy weight and low reps bodybuilder or powerlifted style? Or something in between?


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## Hacienda71 (30 Mar 2014)

Ride more hills, lose a bit of weight, make sure you are in the right gear. If you are finding a gear too big when standing on the pedals change down a gear. 
You could do hill reps. Find a hill say half a mile long, ride up it close to full effort and freewheel down, then repeat two or three times.


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## Mr_K_Dilkington (30 Mar 2014)

Hacienda71 said:


> Ride more hills, lose a bit of weight, make sure you are in the right gear. If you are finding a gear too big when standing on the pedals change down a gear.
> You could do hill reps. Find a hill say half a mile long, ride up it close to full effort and freewheel down, then repeat two or three times.



Cool, I'll definitely be riding more hills and doing some hill reps. Gears I don't think are an issue - I've tried with a variety of gears and still been pretty poor at climbing out of the saddle. Don't have too much weight to lose unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) - I'm already sporting the Chris Froome lanky streak of piss look


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## helston90 (30 Mar 2014)

Unfortunately the cycle goes: ride more hills, loose more weight, so you get better at hills, so you ride more hills etc. 
It's hard- it hurts (it'll always hurt) but you've always got the decent to look forward to- short of buying your way to the lightest bike you can find there's not quick and easy cheat for this.


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## Hacienda71 (30 Mar 2014)

Also my experience is out of the saddle is more efficient on steeper bits of climbs say +10% but a bit of a waste of time for me on the draggy 5 to 7% sections where I find myself much faster getting into a good rhythm seated. I suspect each individual finds their own preference though.


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## ColinJ (30 Mar 2014)

If your cardiovascular system is not redlining then you should be able to try harder.

If you are struggling to turn the cranks round then you are overgeared for your current level of fitness.

If you are _not_ struggling to turn the cranks round then what _is_ the problem? Are you sure it isn't really that your _back_ muscles are not up to the job?


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## marzjennings (30 Mar 2014)

Hill or flats, pedaling is pedaling. Just increase you average road speed and therefore your power output. The more power you can produce on the flat, the more you'll have for climbing. E.g. if your of average size and have a average speed of 15.5mph then you're producing about 120watts of power. That 120watts is only going to propel you at walking pace up a 10% incline. (numbers from this power calc... http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm)

Just ride faster, start producing more watts and the climbing will get easier. 

FYI, unless you plan to ride track, leave out the squats.

I


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## Mr_K_Dilkington (31 Mar 2014)

ColinJ said:


> If your cardiovascular system is not redlining then you should be able to try harder.
> 
> If you are struggling to turn the cranks round then you are overgeared for your current level of fitness.
> 
> If you are _not_ struggling to turn the cranks round then what _is_ the problem? Are you sure it isn't really that your _back_ muscles are not up to the job?



I'm not sure tbh. Looking at my heart rate data, I'm getting to the high 170s and 180s over fairly long periods of time on climbs, which is pretty high right (for a 27 year old guy)?

I just always feel like my legs are knackered but my heart/lungs still have more to give and aren't being pushed to the max like they might when I'm running or swimming really hard.


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## Mr_K_Dilkington (31 Mar 2014)

ColinJ said:


> If your cardiovascular system is not redlining then you should be able to try harder.
> 
> If you are struggling to turn the cranks round then you are overgeared for your current level of fitness.
> 
> If you are _not_ struggling to turn the cranks round then what _is_ the problem? Are you sure it isn't really that your _back_ muscles are not up to the job?



I do have quite weak back and core muscles overall (at least lower back) and really bad posture, tensing to slouch a lot and get quite a tired back on longer rides.

Does strengthening your back help climbing?


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## MontyVeda (31 Mar 2014)

vickster said:


> Squats apparently help. But learn to do them properly so you don't bugger your knees


bad advice... the tories outlawed it.


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## ColinJ (31 Mar 2014)

Mr_K_Dilkington said:


> I do have quite weak back and core muscles overall (at least lower back) and really bad posture, tensing to slouch a lot and get quite a tired back on longer rides.


I am the same!


Mr_K_Dilkington said:


> Does strengthening your back help climbing?


TBH - I haven't tried yet, but on yesterday's forum ride my heart, lungs and legs felt ok, but the steep hills were making my back ache. It is nearly always my back that gives up first, so that is what I am going to focus on.

I found in the past that cycling a lot got my legs and CV system fit long before my back did, so I am going to try doing some core/back exercises as well as cycling.


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## nickyboy (31 Mar 2014)

Mr_K_Dilkington said:


> I do have quite weak back and core muscles overall (at least lower back) and really bad posture, tensing to slouch a lot and get quite a tired back on longer rides.
> 
> Does strengthening your back help climbing?


Yes it does, inasmuch as your core strength will help out of the saddle efforts.

@Hacienda71 got it spot on. The most efficient way to climb hills where the cardiovascular system is the limitation is in the saddle. Apparently the issue is the raising and rocking of the pelvis out of the saddle that is the problem. So on longer hills (which for me is more than about 400m) you sit, and maybe temporarily relieve the muscles by getting out of the saddle. On shorter, steep hills get out of the saddle as this allows for more watts but is less efficient and you can't keep it up for long. I can do a couple of minutes out of the saddle then I'm goosed


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## MikeG (31 Mar 2014)

Mr_K_Dilkington said:


> .........One thing I'm quite aware of at this point is my really shoddy ability to climb when put of the saddle (on longish or fairly steep climbs at least). I can sit down and plug away at climbs no problem, but trying to get some power down out of the saddle, to mix things up using different muscle groups or to emphasise the power in my legs over my cardiovascular system for a while is just not a pretty sight...........



Well don't do it then.

There really is no point trying to do something which is of questionable benefit anyway. The pro-riders are sitting more and more, as they finally start listening to the sports scientists who have been telling them for years that sitting is more efficient. I was first home in a hilly audax this weekend without ever standing on the pedals. It just isn't necessary, and nor is it any quicker than sitting down.


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## cyberknight (31 Mar 2014)

Article in cycling mags just now comparing climbing , assuming you get you general fitness/ strength up then contador has a more effecient technique as he dances his body weight on the pedals rather than grinding ala Evans


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## tyred (31 Mar 2014)

Work on your core strength and keep practising.


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## nickyboy (31 Mar 2014)

cyberknight said:


> View attachment 41187
> 
> 
> Article in cycling mags just now comparing climbing , assuming you get you general fitness/ strength up then contador has a more effecient technique as he dances his body weight on the pedals rather than grinding ala Evans



Wouldn't mind seeing the science behind this assessment as research thus far contradicts this finding totally


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## fossyant (31 Mar 2014)

Just keep training. It's simple. Do more of what you struggle with.


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## Doyleyburger (31 Mar 2014)

As above really, just keep on at those hills ! 
I wouldn't get too worried if you've only been cycling 2 months, that's a very short time even tho it seems you are doing very well indeed. I live in west wales where u can't avoid them so I haven't had choice in the matter and even tho I class myself as relatively fit, it's taken me 6-8 months to get used to them. Core exercises will help I'm sure but the best thing you can do is just get out on the bike as much as you can. Otherwise, things can get over technical. 
With the whole getting out the saddle thing....iv found that sometimes when encountering a short steep hill I will almost certainly get off my arse and gun it!
But with the long drawn out ones I don't get out the seat all that often, literally just to change position now and again. So I would say the best thing is to keep practicing those hills


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## cyberknight (31 Mar 2014)

nickyboy said:


> Wouldn't mind seeing the science behind this assessment as research thus far contradicts this finding totally


Fair enough i am only passing on what the mag says , the could be talking turnips


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## park1 (31 Mar 2014)

Regular rides on a single speed really helped my leg strength and out of the saddle efforts. I find now I can get into a decent out of the saddle rhythm and maintain it for some time without blowing up. I find you have to be careful though as it's this sort of high intensity riding that is not sustainable for longer rides. I find 50 miles to be about my limit on a single speed as my legs feel like jelly. On a geared bike you can take the climbs easier but pushing a lower gear, which means I can cycle for longer.

If you watch the pros there is still a lot of variation. Froome seems to do little out of the saddle compared to Contador say. Chris Horner (vuelta 2013 winner) seems to spend all the time in climbs out of the saddle. What I'm trying to say is that you may be a sit down climber compared to some. The best method for you is the one that gets you up the hill quickest.

If you wanted to improve your leg strength for cycling I wouldn't do squats as the number of reps would always be far lower than in a climb. Other than just doing out of the saddle hill climbs I'd do some running up steps (some nice long flights with 50 plus steps at least).


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## Julia9054 (31 Mar 2014)

I stay seated. Shift body weight forwards, concentrate on keeping shoulders absolutely still and visualise all the power going downwards into my legs. Grit teeth and get into a rhythm. If I stand, I feel I am wasting energy on balance and control. My partner stands - he's beats me at short, steep hills. I often beat him on long, grim drags!


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## numbnuts (31 Mar 2014)

Save your knees and sit and spin


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