# Why do people hate Lance?



## Cathryn (30 Jul 2008)

This is a genuine question.

Being new to the world of pro cycling, I'd always assumed that Lance was the big hero...he'd won the tour seven times, was a cancer hero, has set up a charity thing etc. However the more time I spend with cyclists the more I find people don't like him.

Why is this? 

And who do we like?


----------



## Steve Austin (30 Jul 2008)

His arrogance is difficult to find appealing, but as a Cyclist he was one of the best.


----------



## yenrod (30 Jul 2008)

Cause he's a wise-ass (american speak ) and as Steve says an arrogant bugger too.

LA's a can of spaghetti in an Italian kitchen


----------



## Smokin Joe (30 Jul 2008)

He was a professional Tour de France rider rather than a professional cyclist. Certain parts of the media like to put him forward as a contender for the best ever, but you cannot compare him to the likes of Merckx, Hainault and others who rode full blooded for the whole season. 

Had Merckx followed Armstrongs programme he would still be winning Tours de France now. Armstrong also showed a lack of respect towards his rivals.


----------



## Chuffy (30 Jul 2008)

He's easier to admire than to like. And that's just on the surface impression he creates for himself. Once you start watching him in more detail and reading about him he becomes almost impossible to like. Then you start putting together the (circumstantial) evidence against him and his alleged doping. And his very expensive lawyers. Once you do that, little incidents like the way he blocked a breakaway by Simeoni  and the scrap between him and Greg Lemond assume greater significance. 
Great cyclist, irrespective of the various allegations? Yes.
All round nice guy? Hell no....


----------



## TheDoctor (30 Jul 2008)

Because even in his autobiography he comes across as an arrogant, self-centered pr1ck?


----------



## Losidan (30 Jul 2008)

Smokin Joe said:


> He was a professional Tour de France rider rather than a professional cyclist. Certain parts of the media like to put him forward as a contender for the best ever, but you cannot compare him to the likes of Merckx, Hainault and others who rode full blooded for the whole season.
> 
> Had Merckx followed Armstrongs programme he would still be winning Tours de France now. Armstrong also showed a lack of respect towards his rivals.



That sums it up for me...he rode only for the TDF where as some like an Induarian or Merckx raced all the big races to win.


----------



## mickle (30 Jul 2008)

TheDoctor said:


> Because even in his autobiography he comes across as an arrogant, self-centered pr1ck?



Head. Nail. Hit.


----------



## shooter560 (30 Jul 2008)

Because 99% of those who dislike him in the UK are jealous of his abilities and lets face facts its a UK trait to dislike and put down anyone who achieves anything above being a loser.

I have 100% respect for his riding abilities, and also his dedication to the sport and what was needed to achieve those goals, no where does it say be good but also bow to others, to be the best you have to be dedicated, single minded and willing to stand apart from the rest, he did all this and more and achieved 7 TdFs wins.

Maybe if people in the UK took more from his methods attitudes and drive they could also achieve more.


----------



## mickle (30 Jul 2008)

shooter560 said:


> Because 99% of those who dislike him in the UK are jealous of his abilities and lets face facts its a UK trait to dislike and put down anyone who achieves anything above being a loser.
> 
> I have 100% respect for his riding abilities, and also his dedication to the sport and what was needed to achieve those goals, no where does it say be good but also bow to others, to be the best you have to be dedicated, single minded and willing to stand apart from the rest, he did all this and more and achieved 7 TdFs wins.
> 
> Maybe if people in the UK took more from his methods attitudes and drive they could also achieve more.



Seen dredd.


----------



## simon l& and a half (30 Jul 2008)

TheDoctor said:


> Because even in his autobiography he comes across as an arrogant, self-centered pr1ck?



But...he's not daft. He wrote (or he got somebody else to write) an autobiography that paints a very harsh picture. That doesn't often happen. Most autobiographies are a list of good intentions, if nothing else. 

Then again, it's strikingly obvious that a lot of people stuck by him, even when they had no real reason to. People he admits to having treated poorly. Why would they do that? I suspect there's a lot more to the man than the ruthless and ambitious person he describes in his book. 

And you cannot fault his determination. Remember the cross-country excursion when Beloki crashed. Remember his riding the timetrial stage the year that Ulrich had him on the ropes? - he'd been out the day before and Ulrich had looked at a video. 

I like him. The drug thing doesn't interest me. I like his intelligence, and his wit. I thought he rewrote the book on cadences. Pity about being mates with Robin Williams, tho'....


----------



## Cathryn (30 Jul 2008)

Pity about the Kate Hudson thing too!!

This is really interesting. I completely agree (albeit only on the basis of having read his book) that he sounds pretty full of himself, which isn't very British, is it. And that isn't attractive in a hero. 

But I do wonder, as Shooter said, if it's just a resentment thing because he was so successful? Was it dull when he won year after year after year?

I loved Yenrod's analogy about the spaghetti can, but does that mean that we hold cycling up as this beautiful, European sport of kings and we resented the brash, arrogant American bloke who smashed it to pieces?


----------



## TheDoctor (30 Jul 2008)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking his determination, his commitment or his talent. He's a powerful cyclist and he utterly dominated the Tour for seven years. And he's as hard as titanium nails. That makes him a great athlete, but not a likable person. IMHO.


----------



## Baggy (30 Jul 2008)

Cathryn said:


> Was it dull when he won year after year after year?
> 
> I loved Yenrod's analogy about the spaghetti can, but does that mean that we hold cycling up as this beautiful, European sport of kings and we resented the brash, arrogant American bloke who smashed it to pieces?



In any sport it's a bit boring when someone wins time and time again. He always struck me as being like an automaton, it was as if he didn't find anything particularly difficult and there was an inevitability to him winning. It didn't really bother me that he was American, he wasn't the first arrogant American to win it, Le Mond had already started the trend in the 80's!

I really can't figure out the "99% of people are jealous of him" thing. I think shooter is off the mark as people haven't exactly been putting Cavendish down this year...or Sastre.


----------



## mickle (30 Jul 2008)

As a cyclist and testicular cancer survivor I've felt an affinity with Lance for a long time. I've followed his career, read the book, I have posters on the wall at work and I have a signed World Champs jersey and I admire him immensely. None of which changes the fact that he is an arrogant and self-centered son if a bitch. He is an extraordinary human being. You don't have to like him to admire his achievements.


----------



## Chuffy (31 Jul 2008)

shooter560 said:


> Because 99% of those who dislike him in the UK are jealous of his abilities and lets face facts its a UK trait to dislike and put down anyone who achieves anything above being a loser.
> 
> I have 100% respect for his riding abilities, and also his dedication to the sport and what was needed to achieve those goals, no where does it say be good but also bow to others, to be the best you have to be dedicated, single minded and willing to stand apart from the rest, he did all this and more and achieved 7 TdFs wins.
> 
> Maybe if people in the UK took more from his methods attitudes and drive they could also achieve more.


Yay! 'All u haterz r jus jelous' 
I'd started a virtual countdown in my head, just waiting for this post or one of it's variants. Thanks for not letting me down Shooter...


----------



## Rhythm Thief (31 Jul 2008)

shooter560 said:


> Maybe if people in the UK took more from his methods attitudes and drive they could also achieve more.



Nah. I'd sooner be a pleasant, well - liked, consistent underachiever, thanks.


----------



## shooter560 (31 Jul 2008)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Nah. I'd sooner be a pleasant, well - liked, consistent underachiever, thanks.



That is your choice and I respect you for that, but when I want something and want it bad enough I don't care if I come across as pig headed, arrogant etc as long as I get what I want.

Those who say taking part is what counts are talking utter crap, top level sports people invest time, money, blood, sweat and tears, not for the fun of it but to be the best they possibly can, and not one is bothered about how they come across as long as they get their dream, they are doing it for themselves not anyone else.


----------



## Chuffy (31 Jul 2008)

shooter560 said:


> That is your choice and I respect you for that, but when I want something and want it bad enough I don't care if I come across as pig headed, arrogant etc as long as I get what I want.


Why sir, your charm _quite_ overwhelms me..
<swoons on nearest chaise-longue>


----------



## Christopher (31 Jul 2008)

Actually no-one's mentioned Lance's irritating American fans, who consider him The Greatest Cyclist Ever (dude), when he's not even the most successful American cyclist in terms of total pro wins (that's Davis Phinney). I find the hype about Lance even now more tiresome than the man himself, who I don't really care about

To be fair, Lance would never have won 7 Tours if Jan Ullrich had applied himself a bit more & not fallen off in the rain in that time trial


----------



## zimzum42 (31 Jul 2008)

shooter560 said:


> when I want something and want it bad enough I don't care if I come across as pig headed, arrogant etc as long as I get what I want.


Sir,

I suggest you remove yourself from the country forthwith and relocate to somewhere more appropriate to your character. May I suggest Wall Street, or perhaps Shanghai....


----------



## Tetedelacourse (31 Jul 2008)

Why do people hate Lance?

I think it's mainly his personality!

Hinault had/ has similar popularity for similar reasons.


----------



## kennykool (31 Jul 2008)

I don't hate him!

I've read everything there is to read on LA and he is an inspiration to me in EVERY aspect of life. It annoys me that folks give him a hard time!


----------



## beancounter (31 Jul 2008)

kennykool said:


> I don't hate him!
> 
> I've read everything there is to read on LA and he is an inspiration to me in EVERY aspect of life. It annoys me that folks give him a hard time!



+1

bc


----------



## andy_wrx (31 Jul 2008)

-1 

I find very little likeable about Lance and don't understand anyone who idol-worships him.

He was a very successful cyclist, but not a 'great' in my view because of his personality


----------



## Sh4rkyBloke (31 Jul 2008)

As none of us has ever met him (I assume) it is difficult to actually *hate *him (very strong word).

He does come across as a very focussed individual who happens to be fairly self-centered and arrogant in his approach, but you cannot deny he is/was one of the best at what he did - professional cycling. 

Yes, he only trained for the one race, but does that detract from what he achieved - not at all, it just means he put more effort in to what he deemed to give the biggest reward (and who can blame him - how many people are aware of the 'other tours'?) and was justified in doing so as he reaped the benefits of his intense labour.

Arrogant. Check
Self centred. Check
Egotistical. Check
Bit of an peanut. Check
Motivated. Check
Survivor. Check
Determined. Check
Winner. Check


----------



## spandex (31 Jul 2008)

Frustruck said:


> Actually no-one's mentioned Lance's irritating American fans, who consider him The Greatest Cyclist Ever (dude), when he's not even the most successful American cyclist in terms of total pro wins (that's Davis Phinney). I find the hype about Lance even now more tiresome than the man himself, who I don't really care about
> 
> To be fair, Lance would never have won 7 Tours if Jan Ullrich had applied himself a bit more & not fallen off in the rain in that time trial



That is easy for you to say sat at home watching the TdF but at the time they all did the best they could How could Ullrich of applied his self more. There are not many riders out there that could do what he has done. As for falling off they all fall off even Lance! In the end the best one wins.


----------



## Scoosh (31 Jul 2008)

Sh4rkyBloke said:


> Arrogant. Check
> Self centred. Check
> Egotistical. Check
> Bit of an peanut. Check
> ...


+1 and so well put

I think he is also disliked for being an American (a Texan at that ) in what is largely viewed as a European (Franco/Italian) sport.
He won "their" race too often.

Because he only trained for - and won - the TdF, he is criticised for not doing the other Tours. _He_ says it shows the respect he has for the TdF. _They_ say he is not a real champion.

His recovery from cancer is amazing ... and maybe leads to questions about 'masking' any alleged drug use ... but he himself paid for lots of extra drug testing and never showed up 'non-negative'.

An riddle inside a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma ... or something like that


----------



## yenrod (31 Jul 2008)

And now it seems he's trying to make it 7 Hollywood stars in a row...  as he's split from KateHudson.


----------



## Skip Madness (31 Jul 2008)

Frustruck said:


> To be fair, Lance would never have won 7 Tours if Jan Ullrich had applied himself a bit more & not fallen off in the rain in that time trial



Wasn't Armstrong already taking time out of Ullrich in that time-trial when Ullrich fell? Or rather, he wasn't losing anywhere near enough time to threaten the yellow.


----------



## Christopher (31 Jul 2008)

spandex said:


> That is easy for you to say sat at home watching the TdF but at the time they all did the best they could How could Ullrich of applied his self more. There are not many riders out there that could do what he has done. As for falling off they all fall off even Lance! In the end the best one wins.


Ullrich tended to gain weight, sometimes a lot, over the winter & perhaps could have been fitter at the start of the Tour. Also, it was suggested by Velo Magazine at the time that Ullrich could have tucked up a bit more to be faster in the time trials. I don't think Lance was a better rider than Jan was but he had more focus and determination.


----------



## Smeggers (31 Jul 2008)

He's doing this in a couple of weeks....

http://www.leadvilletrail100.com/merchant.ihtml?id=1425&step=2

I wonder if they have any dope testing?


----------



## yenrod (31 Jul 2008)

Frustuck:

*Its totally filled by actors, which better, Corry any day ! - Yenrod*

Don't understand why you've got this as your sig.line...


----------



## spandex (31 Jul 2008)

scoosh said:


> +1 and so well put
> 
> I think he is also disliked for being an American (a Texan at that ) in what is largely viewed as a European (Franco/Italian) sport.
> He won "their" race too often.
> ...



I could not say it better my self


----------



## Christopher (31 Jul 2008)

Argh! Rumbled by Yenners! Sig sorted...


----------



## spandex (31 Jul 2008)

Frustruck said:


> Ullrich tended to gain weight, sometimes a lot, over the winter & perhaps could have been fitter at the start of the Tour. Also, it was suggested by Velo Magazine at the time that Ullrich could have tucked up a bit more to be faster in the time trials. I don't think Lance was a better rider than Jan was but he had more focus and determination.



So if Ullrich was not ready for the TdF by being over weight (for the TdF) and was not fit for it He did his best but Lance was better. Lance is a better rider then Ullrich (on paper!). I could be a better if at Work, Home life, Riding, With the kids, all the over sports Im into..................... IF I was more focused and determinaton But I just do the best I can at the time and if thats not good enough so be it but I have done the best I can!.


----------



## Tetedelacourse (31 Jul 2008)

aye, focus and determination are part of what makes a good rider. Ergo, all else being equal, Armstrong was a better rider.

Those things manifest themselves differently in different people though. I still maintain, like with Cav, that it's not a pre-requisite of success to be a git.


----------



## yello (31 Jul 2008)

I don't hate him... I just doubt I'd like him!

But since he retired, I don't give him much thought anyway.


----------



## zimzum42 (31 Jul 2008)

One has to respect what he did, and it's impossible to say he wasn't a great bike rider, but none of that detracts from the fact that he was a bit of a knob-end


----------



## spandex (31 Jul 2008)

Come on zimzum a bit of a knob end? NA


The hole Knob maybe


----------



## Chuffy (31 Jul 2008)

scoosh said:


> I think he is also disliked for being an American (a Texan at that ) in what is largely viewed as a European (Franco/Italian) sport.
> He won "their" race too often.


Sorry, but that is a lazy and tired old line which has been trotted out one time too many. I had no axe to grind when I started watching the TdF regarding the nation of the rider who won, I came to my conclusions about him based on what I saw, heard and read. 



> Because he only trained for - and won - the TdF, he is criticised for not doing the other Tours. _He_ says it shows the respect he has for the TdF. _They_ say he is not a real champion.


_They_ would point at other great Tour riders (Merckx being the one most frequently cited) who won many other races, many other Grand Tours and _still _ won the TdF many times. Placing Lance in any 'greatest rider' context is almost impossible because he didn't ride as many other races as the others, he's just not comparable and not in a good way.



> His recovery from cancer is amazing ... and maybe leads to questions about 'masking' any alleged drug use ... but he himself paid for lots of extra drug testing and never showed up 'non-negative'.


Hmm, interesting point. I wonder, if you were being naughty, wouldn't you want to conduct your own testing to see what did and didn't show up? Just a thought...



> An riddle inside a conundrum, wrapped in an enigma ... or something like that


Er no. Not really. What you and his other apologists seem to ignore is that people who dislike him still recognise what a good rider he was. We just have less rosy tinted glasses regarding _how_ good he was. 

Ultimately he is disliked because he is deeply unlikeable. Churn out all the usual excuses (he's from Texas, he won too often, you haterz r all jelous etc) if it makes you feel better, but the bottom line is that he's a nasty git.


----------



## girofan (31 Jul 2008)

What interests me is that all his major opponents have been found to be druggies, yet Lance still beat them in the Tour. How come? They were major talents without drugs. Surely with a little heip from EPO and the like they were better? But he still won! Perhaps his help was more beneficial!!! 
And then we come to his chasing down Simeoni, just because he had the balls to stand up to LA. A stand-up guy, (as long as he gets his way).


----------



## Tim Bennet. (31 Jul 2008)

A then there are his lieutenants: Everyone of them was touted as being a fully paid up member of the squeaky clean club, but somehow they all seem to have had a change of heart after leaving LA's influence and resorted to a major drug habit.

Or did they?


----------



## girofan (31 Jul 2008)

Tim Bennet. said:


> they all seem to have had a change of heart after leaving LA's influence and resorted to a major drug habit.
> 
> Or did they?



It's the Bruyneel Effect.


----------



## Disgruntled Goat (31 Jul 2008)

Anyone mentioned Michele Ferrari yet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Ferrari#Athletes_associated_with_Michele_Ferrari


And because he raced in nothing but the Tour De France which led to people thinking that was the only race there was.

That he dominated for 7 years and it was sooooooooo boring.

And Lance he also started that unfortunate trend of people wearing yellow wristbands without having a clue why ("It's for cancer innit?") and pretending that they are Mother Theresa in the process (all for the £1 - 50p off eBay.)


----------



## Steve Austin (31 Jul 2008)

This photo has a lot to do with why folk don't like Lance







It sort of encapsulates why folk don't like Lance. the swaggering, the posing, being American, the 'we beat and we did good yall' that sort of stuff makes him very unpalatable


----------



## Steve Austin (31 Jul 2008)

I do like the debate about whether Ullrich was as good , or should have been as good as Lance, but the nuts are bolts are this. Team Disco had one objective, to win the Tour and Lance win Yellow. Ullrich's teams never had that, Zabel for eg never put one effort into assisting Ullrich.
Disco (like CSC this year) had one intention to win the tour. Ullrich never had that, thats why he came 2nd


----------



## Scoosh (31 Jul 2008)

> Ultimately he is disliked because he is deeply unlikeable.



I agree totally !
Originally Posted by *scoosh* 

 
_I think he is also disliked for being an American (a Texan at that )_

My comment is confirmed by Steve Austin's pic and my opinions after reading 2 of his books. He's a man who comes across as having major chips on his shoulder(s). He seems to encapsulate what many would consider to be the worst of 'Americanisms' - brash, precocious, flag-waving and successful, with the added quota which comes from being a Texan (bigger, brasher, more precocious and more successful.)

Still not completely convinced about the doping bit, though. I dearly want to believe he was clean but, as _girofan_ says:


> What interests me is that all his major opponents have been found to be druggies, yet Lance still beat them in the Tour. How come? They were major talents without drugs. Surely with a little heip from EPO and the like they were better? But he still won! Perhaps his help was more beneficial!!!


----------



## mickle (31 Jul 2008)

Watched an interview with the Austin Texas bike store owner who sponsored Lance as a 14 triathlete who reckoned he was the most arrogant and obnoxious kid he'd ever encountered. He sponsored him because he was winning every race he entered, against athletes 10 years his senior. Not for his personality. One doesn't have to like the guy to be able to admire his achievements. I have no doubt that his arrogance, self belief and single mindedness were key factors in his success. The TdF isn't a personality contest.


----------



## punkypossum (1 Aug 2008)

I actually quite like him - have read a lot of stuff about him as well as his books (although how much of them he actually wrote himself I don't know), and he is actually really funny and I totally admire his determination. So he is full of himself - at the end of the day he has every reason to be...think some of this might just be people struggling with his very texan attitude.

I'd love to meet him and see what he's like in really life!!!


----------



## Keith Oates (1 Aug 2008)

Armstrong was the best rider around as far as the TdF goes. I think that was due to his dedication to the sport and his single mindedness towards being the best at what he did which was riding and winning the Tour. His personality did not endear him to many people but in my book that doesn't reduce the performances he performed on the bike. Seeing him in full flow on some of the big mountain stages still thrills me when I watch them, even now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tetedelacourse (1 Aug 2008)

I agree with that Keith. What I couldn't stomach was the Simeoni stunt. That was despicable.

Having recently watched the film about some of the other tour greats, Anquetil wasn't well liked, Merckxx understandably wasn't much liked in the peloton, and as for Hinault, well, Michael Hutchinson describes him as a bit of an all round b@astard.

I think it has less to do with his nationality and more to do with his personality.

I think when it comes down to it, I'm a bit of an elitist as far as sport goes. I love to see one sportsman / team rise above the rest and crush everyone else year after year.* I think you need your villains / rivalries for maximum drama and entertainment.



*this does not of course apply to Glasgow Rangers FC


----------



## Chuffy (1 Aug 2008)

Tetedelacourse said:


> Having recently watched the film about some of the other tour greats, Anquetil wasn't well liked, Merckxx understandably wasn't much liked in the peloton, and as for Hinault, well, Michael Hutchinson describes him as a bit of an all round b@astard.


Even the French didn't like Anquetil, which rather shoots down the 'argument' that Armstrong is resented for winning the race too often and not being French. Even the French recognise a true bastard when they see one....

Merckx was feared as much as disliked, because he was so ferocious on the bike and Hinault was a fearsome competitor. Both of them were very hard men, but within the context of the event itself. Armstrong took it way further, to a degree that's hard to stomach.


----------



## beancounter (1 Aug 2008)

Chuffy said:


> Armstrong took it way further, to a degree that's hard to stomach.



Well, absolutely. It's only a BIKE RACE ffs! 

bc


----------



## mangaman (1 Aug 2008)

There's also the Bassons episode
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jul99/jul18.shtml

Basically I don't care if he's American - LeMonde was well liked and respected

It was his attitude to Simeoni / Bassons and his whole "I'm the most tested athlete on the planet and never positive" thing which annoyed me

Especially seeing his whole team blasting away for 3 weeks at the front of the peleton without breaking a sweat, then virtually all testing positive when they left


----------



## Intelligenthamster (2 Aug 2008)

I read his book It's Not About the Bike. "By now I could read an X-ray like any doctor"... ordering the hospitals to get his own special food... he comes across in the book as incredibly arrogant and makes far too many references to his mum. Seems a little oedipal really.... 

And, as others have pointed out, he just concentrated on winning the Tour and didn't do any of the other races.

And as Girofan points out, he was better than anyone on his team who has now been proven to be using drugs


----------



## Cathryn (3 Aug 2008)

He DOES like his Mum, doesn't he!!


----------



## Tim Bennet. (3 Aug 2008)

> He DOES like his Mum, doesn't he!!


He likes all women. 

But at least with his Mum his affections are enduring, whereas his affections for his wives / girlfriends only last until he gets a sniff of the next.


----------



## kennykool (4 Aug 2008)

Cathryn said:


> He DOES like his Mum, doesn't he!!



Doesn't everyone like their Mum tho???

Don't know what you're getting at here folks!!!!!!

maybe some of his team have tested positive since they left

Question....HAS Lance tested Positive??????????? Thats all that really matters

Answer...NO!


----------



## Sh4rkyBloke (4 Aug 2008)

Intelligenthamster said:


> he comes across in the book as incredibly arrogant and makes far too many references to his mum. Seems a little oedipal really....


She is a bit of a hottie though...


----------



## andy_wrx (4 Aug 2008)

Tim Bennet. said:


> But at least with his Mum his affections are enduring, whereas his affections for his wives / girlfriends only last until he gets a sniff of the next.



And isn't it funny that each of his girlfriends look just like his mother ?

'Oedipal' - I suspect a psychiatrist would think so.
I'm not suggesting incest, but Lance's father left when he was about 3, Lance and Mr Armstrong the step-father never got along, his mother kicked him out when Lance was about 10, leaving Lance with no father-figure and acting as his mother's protector.

It was very much 'the pair of them against the world' - Lance and his mother didn't have what could be regarded as a 'normal' relationship.

She's been married, what is it, 5 times ?

Part of who Lance is, is because of his major sense of injustice against the world, his chip on the shoulder, his viewing of so many others as 'enemies' and wanting to take 'revenge' on them.


----------



## asterix (4 Aug 2008)

Isn't 'hate' ather strong in this context? After all, his 'crimes' are completely insignificant for a world figure.

I'm surprised he still arouses such interest now that his competitive career is fading rapidly into the past.


----------



## Cathryn (4 Aug 2008)

I started the thread and yes, 'hate' probably is far too strong a word, but it seemed to fit the bill, based on the general loathing I'd found about him. I'm only interested because I'm new to pro-cycling so have had the media dinning into me how Lance was the best ever cyclist and had been surprised by how differently cyclists seemed to see the situation.


----------



## Dayvo (4 Aug 2008)

Not just 7 consecutive TdeF victories; he won the World Championships in 1993. 

I think a lot of his humour is self-deprecating, which possibly doesn't come across very well as for him being an American.
I like and admire him.


----------



## rich p (4 Aug 2008)

Cathryn said:


> I started the thread and yes, 'hate' probably is far too strong a word, but it seemed to fit the bill, based on the general loathing I'd found about him. I'm only interested because I'm new to pro-cycling so have had the media dinning into me how Lance was the best ever cyclist and had been surprised by how differently cyclists seemed to see the situation.



They're a strange breed these cycling tifosi. You generally find that the ones who 'hate' Armstrong also revere Pantani and Ullrich who both were found to have feet of clay!

They say things like, " I loved the aggressive way Pantani danced on the pedals when he attacked on the hills". Well of course he could - he was stuffed to the coagulating gills with epo

Mind you it is quite easy to dislike LA!


----------



## Chuffy (4 Aug 2008)

rich p said:


> They're a strange breed these cycling tifosi. You generally find that the ones who 'hate' Armstrong also revere Pantani and Ullrich who both were found to have feet of clay!
> 
> They say things like, " I loved the aggressive way Pantani danced on the pedals when he attacked on the hills". Well of course he could - he was stuffed to the coagulating gills with epo
> 
> Mind you it is quite easy to dislike LA!


What confuses me is the way that the likes of Rasmussen and Landis (now Ricco) are absolutely loathed on here while, as you say, the likes of Pantani, Simpson et al are still held up as heroes.


Maybe it's an anti-ginger thing...


----------



## rich p (4 Aug 2008)

Chuffy said:


> What confuses me is the way that the likes of Rasmussen and Landis (now Ricco) are absolutely loathed on here while, as you say, the likes of Pantani, Simpson et al are still held up as heroes.
> 
> 
> Maybe it's an anti-ginger thing...



Quite! Substitute Ricco for Pantani - except that Ricco got caught younger!


----------



## Cathryn (4 Aug 2008)

OOoh I don't like Ricco. Apart from the drug thing, I just think he looks nasty!


----------



## Chuffy (4 Aug 2008)

Cathryn said:


> OOoh I don't like Ricco. Apart from the drug thing, I just think he looks nasty!


See! It's a ginger thing!


----------



## Smokin Joe (4 Aug 2008)

Simpson is regarded as a hero because he wasn't a cheat. He doped, but in those days everybody did so if you wanted to compete on a level playing field you did the same. In fact it would have been hard to be accepted by your fellow pros if you were not prepared to be "One of the boys" at a time when doping was seen to be a harmless nescessity in order to survive in a gruelling sport.

The likes of Landis and Ricco are on a different plane, they doped when there was a genuine attempt in pro cycling to rid the sport of drugs and gave themselves a big advantage over those who were trying to ride clean.


----------



## Cathryn (4 Aug 2008)

Chuffy said:


> See! It's a ginger thing!


----------



## Keith Oates (5 Aug 2008)

I think Ricco didn't win too many friends in the way he 'mouthed off' during the Giro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Blonde (5 Aug 2008)

It's to do with how they come across in interviews and how the press likes to depict them. Press will seize on anything for a good story so any outbursts in the heat of the moment, in an emotional state or when injured (I'm thinking of Cadel Evans being a bit sore when people were tapping his injured shoulder) will be repeated over and over, as well as out of context, for maximum effect. Lance Armstrong never came accross as a 'nice guy', not even in either of his books. But then you have to be a bit odd/eccentric/arrogant/nasty to win the Tour de France that many times. It goes with the job - and it's called focus, or committment or something, and is one reason (of many) why I'd never be any good at racing. No one really knows what L.A. is actually like; only what they have gleaned from the press and from his books which don't paint the most flattering picture. I'm sure his friends and family think he's a lovely chap though. Some are better than others at managing press coverage, and make much better use of the attention (perhaps they actually enjoy the attention, whereas some don't) and therefore come accross better to the general public. I'm also sure that some will deliberately cultivate a 'Mr Nasty' image, or the more elusive 'Mr Enigma' image for career reasons as well as in order to protect their privacy.


----------



## gazzaputt (6 Aug 2008)

As I have never sat down and shared I beer with Lance a can't comment on his personality.

From books and interviews I can see how focused and committed he was to his sport.

I think the guy is inspiring.


----------



## Chuffy (6 Aug 2008)

gazzaputt said:


> As I have never sat down and shared I beer with Lance a can't comment on his personality.
> 
> From books and interviews I can see how focused and committed he was to his sport.
> 
> I think the guy is inspiring.


I too am inspired by him. I aim to be less of an arrogant nob than he is and am sure that I shall succeed.


----------



## rich p (7 Aug 2008)

Chuffy said:


> I too am inspired by him. I aim to be less of an arrogant nob than he is and am sure that I shall succeed.



Don't make rash statements, Chuffy.


----------



## Chuffy (7 Aug 2008)

rich p said:


> Don't make rash statements, Chuffy.


You'll regret saying that. I have time, money and lawyers. I can destroy you. 



















Ooops....


----------



## Tanis8472 (13 Jun 2017)

Look where doing a search for @Smeggers gets me. 

A thread about one of the greatest cyclists cheats  of all time

Sorry to drag this up lol


----------



## dan_bo (13 Jun 2017)

Its like Raiders of the lost ark round here.


----------



## winjim (13 Jun 2017)

Has this question been answered yet?


----------



## Crackle (13 Jun 2017)

winjim said:


> Has this question been answered yet?


Yes, coz he's a cheating bastard of immense proportions.


----------



## Venod (13 Jun 2017)

Crackle said:


> Yes, coz he's a cheating bastard of immense proportions



Along with a lot of others, some mentioned in this thread.


----------



## derrick (13 Jun 2017)

Cathryn said:


> OOoh I don't like Ricco. Apart from the drug thing, I just think he looks nasty!


Judging people on looks Lance is great, i don't know anyone personally who do not like him. a lot of jealousy maybe.


----------



## Beebo (13 Jun 2017)

Dayvo said:


> Not just 7 consecutive TdeF victories; he won the World Championships in 1993.
> 
> I think a lot of his humour is self-deprecating, which possibly doesn't come across very well as for him being an American.
> I like and admire him.


Things you said 9 years ago come back to bite you!


----------



## TheDoctor (13 Jun 2017)

TheDoctor said:


> Because even in his autobiography he comes across as an arrogant, self-centered pr1ck?


I said this 9 years ago. I stand by it.


----------



## Dayvo (13 Jun 2017)

Beebo said:


> Things you said 9 years ago come back to bite you!



I deny all knowledge of that post!


----------



## Beebo (13 Jun 2017)

Dayvo said:


> I deny all knowledge of that post!


Someone hacks my account and writes bollox most days.


----------



## Saluki (13 Jun 2017)

TheDoctor said:


> I said this 9 years ago. I stand by it.



Funny this thread should pop back up. I had a go at Lance-the Prance (No idea why Hubster calls him that but it makes me smile) autobiography. I gave up as I found it so irritating. I am feeling less irritated by reading David Walsh's Seven Deadly Sins, which is a very good read.


----------



## BottomCrank (14 Jun 2017)

Is planned training, having a physio, a nutritionist and a coach an advantage? Something to discuss at a bridge.


----------



## albion (14 Jun 2017)

Surely Lance epitomises America?


----------



## Saluki (14 Jun 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Back in the day I bought "It's not about the Bike" and like you I found it unreadable. As I recall it began "Hi, my name is Lance and I'm a complete nob", and said nothing else for the first twenty pages, after which I gave up. It was even more irritating that David Walsh's "Inside Team Sky". And that was really irritating, but at least I finished it.


I took my copy of Its Not About The Bike to a car boot sale and couldn't give it away. A bloke said that if I gave him a quid that he would take it. I used it to level off some shelves in the shed, in the end so it proved useful eventually


----------



## Dayvo (14 Jun 2017)

Saluki said:


> I took my copy of Its Not About The Bike to a car boot sale and couldn't give it away. A bloke said that if I gave him a quid that he would take it. I used it to level off some shelves in the shed, in the end so it proved useful eventually



They burn quite well, too.


----------



## Saluki (14 Jun 2017)

Dayvo said:


> They burn quite well, too.


I considered that. I just couldn't quite bring myself to burn a book. Political and religious pamphlets are fair game but not a book, even that pile of tosh.


----------



## BottomCrank (14 Jun 2017)

_*Fahrenheit 451 fan?*_


----------



## keithmac (16 Jun 2017)

Ive just started reading this thread, thinking what an odd title, then more odd responses..

Read the date of the posts and it all made sense!.


----------



## Tanis8472 (16 Jun 2017)

I did apologise LOL


----------



## gavroche (16 Jun 2017)

We must stop saying he has won 7 TdF as officially he hasn't as he cheated on every one of them. He was a druggie and a bully. He is not in the same league as Anquetil, Mercks, Hinault, Lemond and Indurrain.
The less said about him, the better.


----------



## Vegan1 (16 Jun 2017)

Big Mig for me was doped


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (16 Jun 2017)

gavroche said:


> We must stop saying he has won 7 TdF as officially he hasn't as he cheated on every one of them. He was a druggie and a bully. He is not in the same league as Anquetil, Mercks, Hinault, Lemond and Indurrain.
> The less said about him, the better.


From that list of riders, only Lemond would pass my "not doped" test.

However, that daffodil Armstrong was/is a daffodil. And should only be remembered as such.


----------



## Crackle (16 Jun 2017)

Vegan1 said:


> Big Mig for me was doped


Kinky; what did you do with him?


----------



## rich p (17 Jun 2017)

Crackle said:


> Kinky; what did you do with him?


Well, he doesn't eat meat, for a start...


----------



## Tanis8472 (17 Jun 2017)

Vegan1 said:


> Big Mig for me was doped










??


----------



## Milzy (17 Jun 2017)

Not everybody dislikes him. In fact he had a huge loyal fan base. The only person who wasn't doping was Chris Boardman and he knew he'd no chance of keeping up so went on to do other things like hill climbing championships.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (17 Jun 2017)

Milzy said:


> The only person who wasn't doping...



There were others.


----------



## TheDoctor (17 Jun 2017)

Milzy said:


> Not everybody dislikes him. In fact he had a huge loyal fan base. The only person who wasn't doping was Chris Boardman and he knew he'd no chance of keeping up so went on to do other things like hill climbing championships.


Had is the operative word there. He was a lying, bullying cheat and, even in his own autobiography, comes across as a self centered manipulative daffodil.
Not the flowery sort.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Jun 2017)

Some people had a great deal of "buy in" to the Lance lie, I recall one (former?) CC member would not be swayed and got a Livestrong tattoo; he did, eventually, realise he had been duped, and I think that the number of people who were let down is the worst thing of all about it.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (18 Jun 2017)

Who is Lance?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (18 Jun 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Who is Lance?


He's a daffodil. Please feel free to share, just in case anyone thinks otherwise.


----------



## Ian193 (18 Jun 2017)

I've not read any of his books and never will hate cheaters with avengance


----------



## Ian H (18 Jun 2017)

Pro cycling has always been a dirty sport. That's part of the fascination. Armstrong's biggest sin was to make it boring.


----------



## suzeworld (5 Jul 2017)

What's a daffodil .. ?

Yesterday, mooching about in local charity shops my nephew kept locating Lance books and waving them at me.
<sigh>


----------



## Disabledcyclist40 (5 Jul 2017)

Lance won a dirty race dirty

He also inspired millions, myself included

Raised millions for charity

And gave the sport a huge boost in following, again, I'm here, in many ways, because of Lance

Do I like he cheated? No, did the majority 9f his time cheat? Hell yes, would they have all pushed it as far if they could have afforded too? No doubt in my mind.

So quite why that makes Lance "worse " is beyond me personally.


----------



## rich p (5 Jul 2017)

Disabledcyclist40 said:


> Lance won a dirty race dirty
> 
> He also inspired millions, myself included
> 
> ...


Oh, FFS, good luck to you but we did these arguments ad nauseam way back when.
Just search for the 100s of pages of threads when it was current and save us the grief all over again.
By the way, WW2 has finished and we won...

...depending on whose side you were on, of course


----------



## Disabledcyclist40 (5 Jul 2017)

rich p said:


> Oh, FFS, good luck to you but we did these arguments ad nauseam way back when.
> Just search for the 100s of pages of threads when it was current and save us the grief all over again.
> By the way, WW2 has finished and we won...
> 
> ...depending on whose side you were on, of course


Couldn't resist a Lance love in  

BTW how's the bore war going?


----------



## suzeworld (6 Jul 2017)

I still want to know what a daffodil is


----------



## Crackle (6 Jul 2017)

suzeworld said:


> I still want to know what a daffodil is


The swear filter transforms the c word into daffodil


----------



## suzeworld (6 Jul 2017)

Thanks - I thought of experimenting with every swear word in turn so you've saved me that job !!


----------



## Tin Pot (6 Jul 2017)

Disabledcyclist40 said:


> Lance won a dirty race dirty




_...Or did he?_

*Lance Armstrong's drug of choice, EPO, 'doesn't work', scientists claim*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...drug-choice-epo-doesnt-work-scientists-claim/


The CHDR and Lancet itself, not the journo translation: 

https://chdr.nl/...oad-race-performance 

"*For well-trained non-professional cyclists, the performance enhancing drug rHuEPO (recombinant human erythropoietin) appears to have a small effect on high intensity laboratory cycling tests, but the performance enhancing effects were mostly undetectable in a laboratory time trial test and an endurance road-race up Mont Ventoux (France), according to a new study. *

The double-blind, randomised trial, published in The Lancet Haematology journal, involved 48 well-trained non-professional male cyclists aged 18-50. While no adverse events were recorded, the drug led to elevated levels of haemoglobin and adhesion molecules which could potentially increase the risk of thrombosis."


----------



## Disabledcyclist40 (6 Jul 2017)

Great, so Lance is innocent, reinstate those 7 TdF jerseys. 

#livestrong


----------



## Tin Pot (6 Jul 2017)

Yeah, it doesn't actually say that EPO doesn't work, but the Telegraph are making the most out of that headline anyway.

I hate science journalism almost as much as advertising.


----------



## KneesUp (6 Jul 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Armstrong also relied on steroids, testosterone and blood bags did he not?


Just wished to point out that the scientific experiment referred to earlier used no professional cyclists for the obvious reason that no professional cyclist could participate in a test of EPO.

I would imagine that a lot of riders use steroids. I know Wiggins did, for his really, really bad hayfever.

The blood-doping was a means of preventing the EPO (which science suggests doesn't work as a perfomance enhancer) from being detected wasn't it? I thought the idea was you stored 'clean' blood, to put back in later. I could be wrong though. Even thinking about bags of blood makes me feel a bit sick - I'm proper squeamish.

I don't know about testosterone, but without doing any research whatsoever, I'd imagine at one plum down he'd be producing less naturally than most riders?

< retires to safe distance >


----------



## Tin Pot (6 Jul 2017)

KneesUp said:


> I don't know about testosterone, but without doing any research whatsoever, I'd imagine at one plum down he'd be producing less naturally than most riders?
> 
> < retires to safe distance >



Love it!


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Jul 2017)

To be a proper Lance fan you need to have a Lance tattoo; 






Which you can then amend to show your love for space exploration






Or Judas Priest


----------



## Saluki (6 Jul 2017)

Crackle said:


> The swear filter transforms the c word into daffodil


We have asked that the c word be translated to Piers Morgan, but no joy so far


----------



## suzeworld (6 Jul 2017)

Saluki said:


> We have asked that the c word be translated to Piers Morgan, but no joy so far


Good Lord - there is plenty of choice for that substitution.


----------

