# Positioning on dual carriageways



## Dirk (19 Mar 2016)

Living in North Devon, we only have one dual carriageway and that is only about a mile long (A361 from Barnstaple towards Braunton).
I've tried an experiment a few times when riding down it and have
noticed a marked difference in driver behaviour.
When riding in the 'normal' primary position, virtually every overtaking vehicle will encroach in my lane. I've even had a couple of what I would consider 'close passes', despite lane 2 being empty.
If I take up a position just a couple of inches to the left of the centre of lane 1 ie. 'own the lane', every single overtaking vehicle positions fully in lane 2.
This happens every time - never had anyone encroach.
Has anyone else tried this and does it work in other areas of the country?


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## Racing roadkill (19 Mar 2016)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Living in North Devon, we only have one dual carriageway and that is only about a mile long (A361 from Barnstaple towards Braunton).
> I've tried an experiment a few times when riding down it and have
> noticed a marked difference in driver behaviour.
> When riding in the 'normal' primary position, virtually every overtaking vehicle will encroach in my lane. I've even had a couple of what I would consider 'close passes', despite lane 2 being empty.
> ...


Yes this works, until you get a HGV approaching. There usually isn't enough room for them to do the move cleanly. Side draughts from HGVs are. I frequently ride sections of dual carriageway, and just ride in standard primary. Riding as you describe also opens you up to passes on the left, from motorcycles, and the occasional 'city car', it's happened to me before.


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## Dirk (19 Mar 2016)

I've found that even the LGVs and buses move entirely into lane 2 - not so much as a wheel into my lane. Must be a Devon thing. Or could it be that this only happens on quiet roads?


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## Racing roadkill (19 Mar 2016)

Dirk Thrust said:


> I've found that even the LGVs and buses move entirely into lane 2 - not so much as a wheel into my lane. Must be a Devon thing. LOL


You've been lucky, the problem is that if the truck gives you enough room, when you're in primary, you are far enough away from the side, as to not be affected by the side draught. If you're close to the centre line, the truck moving into lane 2 is a whole lot closer ( I.M.E. ) particularly on a narrower D.C. like the A303, or bits of the A34, for example.


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## Andrew_P (19 Mar 2016)

I get loads of grief if I "own the lane" cars tooting, tailgating. Probably works on a not so busy road but rush hour SE London not so much so. That said I get loads of close passes in primary two cars plus me normally the cupid stunt in lane one undertaking lane two while overtaking me :-(


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## hatless (19 Mar 2016)

"A couple of inches to the left of lane 1" is exactly what I understand by primary position. So I'm confused.


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## Dirk (19 Mar 2016)

Maybe I should have said that it is an 'exaggerated' primary position. ie. Further out to the right than you would consider to be a normal position on a single carriageway.


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## raleighnut (19 Mar 2016)

That position would be fine at 50mph, any slower and I'd say it was a bit OTT.


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## mjr (19 Mar 2016)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Maybe I should have said that it is an 'exaggerated' primary position. ie. Further out to the right than you would consider to be a normal position on a single carriageway.


Primary doesn't change on a dual carriageway but I am more likely to use it. If nobber motorists have a problem with it, they have another lane they can use. On a typical wide rural single carriageway, I'm more likely to ride secondary but will ride primary if it is too narrow.

So in short, yes, I find taking the whole left lane works better on dual carriageways up to about 40mph. Beyond that, I try to avoid anything more than short stretches because there are far too many bad motorists for me to be happy.


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## Ian H (19 Mar 2016)

If there is a reasonable paved width left of the 'fog line' then I tend to ride fairly close to the left. Otherwise I will stay far enough out that vehicles have to cross the white lines to pass. Once they realise they have to cross the line, it seems some kind of psychological barrier is broken and they nearly always give a decent amount of space.
I do think drivers are getting better with cyclists.


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## steveindenmark (19 Mar 2016)

On a Dual carrigeway there should be plenty of room for a car or van to overtake you in your Lane without causing you any bother. 

Do you want all the other vehicles to move totally into the other Lane to overtake you? If that is the case, be brave enough to sit yourself in the middle of the Lane as if you were a motorbike. At the moment it sounds you are dangling on the fringes of being a bike and a motorbike.

Having said that. Sitting in the middle Lane is OTT in my opinion.


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## Spinney (19 Mar 2016)

User13710 said:


> There is no middle lane. It's a dual carriageway.



Dual carriageway refers to the separation of the traffic in each direction, not to the number of lanes.

A dual carriageway can have 1, 2 or 3 lanes (1 lanes only for very short stretches usually).

HTH


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## Spinney (19 Mar 2016)

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-hig...-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158


User13710 said:


> Read the OP.


I did.

But your statement implied that there was no middle lane because it was a dual carriageway. Not that that particular dual carriageway had no middle lane.

HTH


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## Dirk (19 Mar 2016)

[QUOTE 4201479, member: 9609"]That sounds completely barking, you sound as though you're pretty much riding down the white line, it wouldn't suprise me if folk didn't undertake you with horn fully engaged. I have this vision of cars undertaking at 60 and large vans overtaking at 80.

I think I have only ever once been on an urban (40) dual and ever again. As for NSL twin lane dual, I think I once had to do half a mile and I stopped and got off when I seen a group of trucks and cars approacing from behind. I know many will disagree with me but I don't think these roads are for cyclists.[/QUOTE]
You have obviously completely misunderstood the description of my position on the road.


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## jefmcg (19 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> On a Dual carrigeway there should be plenty of room for a car or van to overtake you in your Lane without causing you any bother.
> 
> Do you want all the other vehicles to move totally into the other Lane to overtake you? If that is the case, be brave enough to sit yourself in the middle of the Lane as if you were a motorbike.



^^^ This. Though sometimes you have to move to what I call "strong primary" to really take the lane.



Ian H said:


> If there is a reasonable paved width left of the 'fog line' then I tend to ride fairly close to the left.


I'm not sure why that makes a difference. Is it so you have an escape route? There's usually a lot of crap in there including parts of vehicles, swept off the roads by the cars, so if you need to move into it in an emergency situation it could easily not be a safe move.



> Otherwise I will stay far enough out that vehicles have to cross the white lines to pass. Once they realise they have to cross the line, it seems some kind of psychological barrier is broken and they nearly always give a decent amount of space.



Yes. Once drivers have to cross the line (this goes for single carriageways too) then they tend to move properly across the line and give you room.

Not just just in the UK, of course. I went for a Sunday morning solo ride in Melbourne and even though the traffic was much quieter even than in this streetview, strong secondary positioning still got me close. But moving towards the right of the lane ironically gets you more space to your right.


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## jefmcg (19 Mar 2016)

Dirk Thrust said:


> You have obviously completely misunderstood the description of my position on the road.





Dirk Thrust said:


> If I take up a position just a couple of inches to the left of the centre of lane 1 ie. 'own the lane',



The standard width of a traffic lane on a DC in the UK is something like 3.5 or 3.65 metres (thank you google). That's more than 11 feet. I suspect you are really riding a couple of feet, rather than inches from the centre line. The former is often necessary; the latter, I wouldn't do.


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## jefmcg (19 Mar 2016)

User13710 said:


> Not the centre line though. The centre of the lane.


No, sometimes I ride closer to the the line of the right tyre position of a sedan. Still well away from the line, but not in the middle of the lane. Only if primary isn't "working". I call it "strong primary"**. 

It's strange how roads seem to have personalities. Usually primary works, in that cars move to the next lane. But it seems if one driver doesn't bother moving completely out of my lane and passes too closely, another driver a few minutes later will do the same thing, like the behaviour is somehow coming from the road, not the drivers.

In the 3 lane DC above, I had to move as far right as I ever had in the left lane, despite the motorists having 2 more lanes on an effectively empty road with great visibility so somewhere between 500m and a kilometre to move over one lane.

Edit @User9609 usage is nice "passive primary to a dominant primary"


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## Ian H (19 Mar 2016)

jefmcg said:


> ^^^ This. Though sometimes you have to move to what I call "strong primary" to really take the lane.
> I'm not sure why that makes a difference. Is it so you have an escape route? There's usually a lot of crap in there including parts of vehicles, swept off the roads by the cars, so if you need to move into it in an emergency situation it could easily not be a safe move.



To be clear, I'm on the carriageway, right of the fog line.


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## MichaelW2 (19 Mar 2016)

It is always important to use road position to affect the psychology of overtaking drivers, even if you work on a subconscious level.
Yesterday I was approaching on single-lane downhill, towards 2 lines of traffic backed up behind a red light. A big bus was stopped and going nowhere, so I cruised from 20m away to a halt. 
The BMW driver behind me was having none of this and accelerated towards the big bus, half-overtaking me, crossing a foot into the opposing lane, then as he drew alongside, he steered back into my lane.
I obviously failed to manage his overtaking fetish with a primary position. maybe a primary plus would have worked better.


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## sidevalve (19 Mar 2016)

Ok I give in - why are you in the primary position anyway ? Unless making a manoeuvre - turning right / left or approaching a junction at which you wish to do so or a hazard of some kind what's the point - just to p- - s people off ? I'm not saying ride in the gutter [before the 'all cyclists are perfect and have a right to rule the road' crew get involved] but a dual carriageway - as far as a cycle is concerned is just a lane like any other with another one going in the same direction beside it [usually] why in effect do you want to block one lane off and force overtakers over into the other lane when they could overtake quite safely without if you were in the normal position ? Why do you want to 'take control' of the lane ? What is the reason or is it just another 'Ohh look at me I'm a cyclist and I can block the road' thing.


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## oldstrath (19 Mar 2016)

sidevalve said:


> Ok I give in - why are you in the primary position anyway ? Unless making a manoeuvre - turning right / left or approaching a junction at which you wish to do so or a hazard of some kind what's the point - just to p- - s people off ? I'm not saying ride in the gutter [before the 'all cyclists are perfect and have a right to rule the road' crew get involved] but a dual carriageway - as far as a cycle is concerned is just a lane like any other with another one going in the same direction beside it [usually] why in effect do you want to block one lane off and force overtakers over into the other lane when they could overtake quite safely without if you were in the normal position ? Why do you want to 'take control' of the lane ? What is the reason or is it just another 'Ohh look at me I'm a cyclist and I can block the road' thing.


Generally I would prefer motor vehicles to move into another lane to overtake, just like they would a car. This is easier on a dual carriageway, because they do indeed have another lane all of their own for the purpose.

I don't want this because 'cyclists are perfect and have a right to rule the road', but because neither I, nor the road surface, nor the drivers, is perfect, so the more space the better. What's the big deal, apart from the general dickhead 'I must drive at or above the speed limit at all times and no evil cyclist may impede my divine passage' thing?


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## theclaud (19 Mar 2016)

sidevalve said:


> I'm not saying ride in the gutter


Yeah - you are.


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## mjr (20 Mar 2016)

Take primary more often because dual carriageway lanes are often narrower than single ones (S2W ones).


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## Drago (20 Mar 2016)

Ride firmly in the primary and take control of your lane. It's a 2 lane road (I presume) and needs.to be treated as such. If you don't take your lane then other road users will treat it as a 3 lane road when dealing with you, and that's gonna get you squashed.

I'm never entirely comfortable cycling in fast roads, ie, those with a speed limit above 40MPH. We are of course permitted to do it, and I do often do it myself, but the design of most of such roads and the behaviour of a significant minority of motorists is counter to safe passage by bike.


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## Dirk (20 Mar 2016)

jefmcg said:


> ....... I suspect you are really riding a couple of feet, rather than inches from the centre line........


Then you suspect wrongly.
My position, as previously stated, is a few inches to the left of the centre of the lane I am riding in.


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## steveindenmark (20 Mar 2016)

Im not being funny but that sounds like you are taking up all of a Lane on a Dual carrigeway.

Draw us a picture.


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## Sea of vapours (20 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Im not being funny but that sounds like you are taking up all of a Lane on a Dual carrigeway.



Assuming that is what is meant - and that is certainly a reasonable assumption - what is wrong with that? 

I don't ride on dual carriageways, precisely since I think the above is what a cyclist should do; they _should_ take up the whole lane and oblige cars to overtake properly in lane 2, lane 3, etc. Unfortunately, I don't trust all vehicle drivers to recognise that they need to change lanes to overtake so I'd be uncomfortable doing that and I therefore don't ride on them other than very briefly for short distances when essential. 

The alternative (to taking the lane) is to cycle such that a vehicle traveling (legally) at up to 70mph can pass within the same lane whilst being overtaken by another vehicle. That is, to say the least, not an appealing situation for the cyclist but is bound to arise unless the cyclist has emphatically 'taken the lane'. If I'm on a bike I want vehicles traveling at that relative velocity to be in their own lane, hence the strong primary position is required, but since most cyclists will hug the edge, most motorists will in turn assume that they can overtake any cyclist within lane 1 and will not be anticipating the possibility of a) moving out in good time into lane 2, b) slowing to the speed of the cyclist if they cannot move into lane 2 due to traffic approaching them from behind which is already in lane 2. 

Given the standard of anticipation of at least some drivers (not considering the road far enough ahead), combined with the lack of familiarity with the idea of a cyclist 'taking the whole lane' on a dual carriageway, I don't see a safe solution, which is why I avoid them. That's relatively easy to do around here, but clearly isn't in many places. 

This is yet another of those things that needs behavioural change on both sides: 
- drivers need to recognise that they should change lanes, not merely shuffle out slightly, to pass cyclists, especially at high relative speeds;
- cyclists need to 'take the lane' to compel this behaviour.
I can't see either of those happening in a hurry though 

On the OP's original point: I agree that there definitely does seem to be a psychological reticence in some drivers to crossing the white line at all, and if they are forced to then they are more likely to completely change lane. That's a definite advantage of 'strong primary', but fails to address the issue of those drivers not paying attention to the potential need to do so.


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## steveindenmark (20 Mar 2016)

This is just my opinion but if I rode a bike down the centre of a lane on a Dual carrigeway. I would expect at some stage to be abused or undertaken by a moped or motorbike. Being just right of primary should make other traffic move out. Some Dual carrigeway lanes are very wide and you can certainly get a car to overtake you safely while staying in your lane.

Drivers do not necessarily have to change lanes to pass cyclists but they need to give them plenty of space. Which they can do on most Dual carriageways.


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## Sea of vapours (20 Mar 2016)

I agree on the moped/motorcycle issue and - were I on a dual carriageway in primary - would move over if one approached in order to allow them to stay in lane. 

On your 'plenty of space' thing though, with respect to cars, lorries and vans: 
- The key here is whether the car can stay wholly in lane 1. If they can't then they might just as well move into lane 2 (since no other vehicle can overtake them in lane 2 anyway because they are partially in lane 2 to avoid driving into the cyclist). It 'costs' the vehicle nothing to make that lane change and it's overall safer / nicer.
- Looking at lane widths (UK, which are quite wide internationally), the standard is 3.65 metres. A car is about 2m wide (some a bit less, some a fair bit more, including mirrors) and lorries are even bigger. So, that's 1.65m left for the cyclist and the space around the cyclist. Let's say the cyclist has 42cm bars, so they'll be about 50cm wide overall if totally stable. That leaves 1.65m minus 0.5m for 'space either side of bike, i.e. 1.15m. Just over a metre is not much if a vehicle is passing at 50mph (relative speed to the cyclist), and that also assumes the cyclist is right on the outer edge of the carriageway, on the white line, but not in the gutter part. Even if we assume that the cyclist should ride right at the edge - which I don't - one metre is not enough, given the relative speeds. It's OK-ish when passing speeds are, say, 15-20mph, around towns, but really not enough for my liking at dual carriageway speeds. 

Personally, I don't pass cyclists on dual carriageways without changing lanes. I instead imagine the result of them hitting, or swerving to avoid, a pothole or other hazard and ameliorating that event requires a three metre margin, at least, which means I'm in lane 2. This also means that any vehicle behind cannot imagine that it can get past in 'half of lane 2', were I to merely move out a bit to pass the bike and only therefore only slightly encroach on lane 2. And if I've messed up and can't get into lane 2 then I'll slow 'til I can. Many people don't drive like that which is why I try to avoid cycling on dual carriageways.


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## Dirk (20 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> Im not being funny but that sounds like you are taking up all of a Lane on a Dual carrigeway.
> 
> Draw us a picture.


I'm finding it difficult to understand which part of - 'a few inches to the left of the centre of lane 1'- that people are having trouble comprehending.


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## jefmcg (20 Mar 2016)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Then you suspect wrongly.
> My position, as previously stated, is a few inches to the left of the centre of the lane I am riding in.


apologies. I seem to have wilfully misread this several times. To the extent I thought you had edited your original posting when you posted this. 

However, if you measure a point exactly in the middle of a 12' carriage way, then moved a few inches to the left of that point, you would still look to be dead in the middle of the lane to an observer without a tape measure or (giant) protractors. Unless "a few" is 15+ to you.

That said, a little to left of the centre of the lane sounds like exactly where I would place myself on a dual carriageway, and in my experience it's close to the sweet spot for reducing close passes.

You have my permission to carry on. (yes, I know you don't need my permission, and apologies again for the misread).


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## steveindenmark (20 Mar 2016)

So here we have a Dual carriageway.

What you are saying is that you position yourself to the right of where the Grey car on the left is. Is that correct?

I am just trying to clarifiy for those having trouble understanding.


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## jefmcg (20 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> So here we have a Dual carriageway.
> 
> What you are saying is that you position yourself to the right of where the Grey car on the left is. Is that correct?
> 
> I am just trying to clarifiy for those having trouble understanding.


I'm not sure what your point is, but if I was on that road in that traffic, I would position myself well out from the edge, so any driver would see me, and have plenty of time to use the mostly empty outside lane. Probably at about the number plate of the sports car. Which I think is where @Dirk Thrust would be, too. An alert driver would not be held up, and I'd rather be right in the centre of vision of an unalert driver.


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## steveindenmark (20 Mar 2016)

I am not trying to make a point just clarifying the position.

There are plenty of unalert drivers on that road. Its the A30.


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## jefmcg (20 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> There are plenty of unalert drivers on that road. Its the A30.


Yeah, so don't cling to the side of the road where they probably won't notice you. 

I once took a wrong turn near Staines and ended up on the A30. I trudged back on the embankment to the roundabout. If I'd stayed on the road, I would have taken the lane. A dangerous A road is not less dangerous if you cling to the side.


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## GetAGrip (20 Mar 2016)

https://goo.gl/maps/v2a4kMqREAx to be fair, it's a very narrow and occasionally cambered rural stretch of dual carriage way. Definitely not a road to be ridden in a shy and unassuming fashion!


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## GetAGrip (20 Mar 2016)

User13710 said:


> The words are clear enough, no need for pictures.


Well I beg your pardon I'm sure


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## winjim (20 Mar 2016)

We discussed this a while ago in a different context. There's a bit of dual carriageway on my commute where I ride straight down the centreline dividing the two lanes. I honestly feel it's the safest thing to do at that point. Here's my post from last year:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/courteous-use-of-cycle-lane.188937/#post-3943109


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## Andrew_P (20 Mar 2016)

I have ridden a 40mph and 60mpg dual carriageway 400-500 times the latter is the arse end of the M23 - although classified as the A23 and the furthest I dare to go out is the nearside car wheel channel and in 5 years I have never, ever seen any other cyclist do anything different. In fact now I think about it in 30+ years of driving I have never seen a solo cyclist in the middle of the road on a dual carriageway.

I do however have plenty of close passes to complain about so might try sticking myself in the middle tomorrow afternoon, and pray.


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## midlife (20 Mar 2016)

Andrew_P said:


> I have ridden a 40mph and 60mpg dual carriageway 400-500 times the latter is the arse end of the M23 - although classified as the A23 and the furthest I dare to go out is the nearside car wheel channel and in 5 years I have never, ever seen any other cyclist do anything different. In fact now I think about it in 30+ years of driving I have never seen a solo cyclist in the middle of the road on a dual carriageway.
> 
> I do however have plenty of close passes to complain about so might try sticking myself in the middle tomorrow afternoon, and pray.



Seen TT riders riding in the middle of the A1 on the 'Boro course in the 1970's .....

Shaun


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## steveindenmark (20 Mar 2016)

midlife said:


> Seen TT riders riding in the middle of the A1 on the 'Boro course in the 1970's .....
> 
> Shaun



But not travelling at 8 mph :0)


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## Tim Hall (20 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I am not trying to make a point just clarifying the position.
> 
> There are plenty of unalert drivers on that road. Its the A30.





> I'm finding it difficult to understand which part of - 'a few inches to the left of the centre of lane 1'- that people are having trouble comprehending.


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## Dirk (20 Mar 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> What you are saying is that you position yourself to the right of where the Grey car on the left is. Is that correct?



......No


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## hatless (20 Mar 2016)

User13710 said:


> The original post said "a couple of inches to the left of *the centre of* lane 1". HTH


You're quite right. It's very hard to read accurately. For me, at least.

I avoid dual carriageways. One I used to use had a two foot space to the left of the white line (which was also a rumble strip), and I used to cycle there, but some enormous lorries would pass me at 50mph just a few inches beyond the white line.


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## steveindenmark (21 Mar 2016)

Dirk Thrust said:


> ......No



Ive got you 

Between the number plate and nearside wheel.


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## jarlrmai (21 Mar 2016)

I always ride upside down on the inside of the outside lane and couple of nanometers to right of the leftmost side of the right inside upper lane just by the dead hedgehog but 36 degrees SSW to the crushed frog, this is known as Escher Position.

This generally confuses drivers so much they stop to try and work out if they need to get their eyes tested.


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## hatless (23 Mar 2016)

It does feel, to me, as if a few inches this way or that make a difference, not so much on dual carriageways, but on roads in general.

I started a regular commute a few years ago and had unpleasant close passes often. As time passed they reduced and reduced to a much lower level. Partly down to route selection, partly down to cycling at a speed nearer to that of the traffic, but mainly, I think, down to positioning at key points, basically moving further out from the kerb at the right moment. It's far more subtle than switching from secondary to primary; I feel as if I have a dozen degrees of primary in my repertoire, and timing is as important as position, as is listening to engine note and judging how close the car behind is - usually without looking.

And I'm still learning. My cycling is still developing and I'm tending to cycle further out more often and earlier, and to make myself more visible and, by positioning and indicating, to make sure I'm seen.

A fast dual carriageway would be beyond my skill set. Primary or secondary, I would just have to choose one and trust in the other drivers, and that doesn't appeal. I would try very hard to avoid it, perhaps set off earlier and have a longer, more pleasant ride.


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