# Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?



## Fab Foodie (20 Mar 2020)

Anyone know what their spin on CV19 is?


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## Andy in Germany (20 Mar 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Anyone know what their spin on CV19 is?



Probably that it's a government conspiracy to force people to accept vaccination.


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## marinyork (20 Mar 2020)

Vaccines are great. Unfortunately even the fastest produced vaccine in history is probably still a long way off. The other two or three technological solutions (which some on this board got very angry about) are probably the way before. Testing kit innovations and scaling up and medicines (which are more likely to be used on those in the early stages of hospitalisation) seem better cross your fingers hopes at the moment.


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## fossyant (20 Mar 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Anyone know what their spin on CV19 is?



Don't use paracetamol


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## Fab Foodie (20 Mar 2020)

fossyant said:


> Don't use paracetamol


Naughty fossy....


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## vickster (20 Mar 2020)

fossyant said:


> Don't use paracetamol


Maybe statins hold the key to a cure?


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## byegad (20 Mar 2020)

Some of them may be in line for the Darwin Award by the end of this.


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## twentysix by twentyfive (20 Mar 2020)

For a moment there I wondered whether this was a vacuum cleaner thread 

But got it now  - vaxxers has now been added to my dictionary


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## marinyork (20 Mar 2020)

Build up immunity going into wetherspoons.


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## perplexed (20 Mar 2020)

marinyork said:


> Build up immunity going into wetherspoons.



Hell no - they're already on my boycott list due to Martin's Brexit twattery. In fact I wish I could boycott 'em twice.


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## Mugshot (21 Mar 2020)

Here's one


View: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/449525268529815552?s=20


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## nickyboy (21 Mar 2020)

I've got a feeling that the aromatherapy crowd may be onto something. Remember where you heard it first


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## PK99 (21 Mar 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Anyone know what their spin on CV19 is?




*JUST FOR CLARITY THESE ARE NOT MY VIEWS THEY ARE EXTRACTS FROM A FB PAGE IN RESPOSE TO THE ABOVE QUESTION*

From the FB page of a local AntiVaxx homeopath: Quiclky skimmed
They are in full denial mode


_Am I hearing this right, if you had a flu vax you are more susceptible to CV19? _


_Since Merck/Vioxx, Vaxxed & Monsanto, they are truly panicking._
_We are finally waking up._
_#Plandemic_


_ For anyone feeling intense fear of catching a virus, get a bottle of Arsenicum 30c from the health shop. _


_How clever of this group to have predicted this "Pandemic"_
_FFS it has been orchestrated _<Linking to a video of a Table top pandemic-response exercise>












https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...p5S4I3DZk-7cjNsyKSvxvfYrE58Gi1cY8UjOlpuTFIErg


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## Andy_R (22 Mar 2020)

PK99 said:


> *JUST FOR CLARITY THESE ARE NOT MY VIEWS THEY ARE EXTRACTS FROM A FB PAGE IN RESPOSE TO THE ABOVE QUESTION*
> 
> From the FB page of a local AntiVaxx homeopath: Quiclky skimmed
> They are in full denial mode
> ...


Thinking like that requires a special kind of stupid....


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## randynewmanscat (22 Mar 2020)

PK99 said:


> *JUST FOR CLARITY THESE ARE NOT MY VIEWS THEY ARE EXTRACTS FROM A FB PAGE IN RESPOSE TO THE ABOVE QUESTION*
> 
> From the FB page of a local AntiVaxx homeopath: Quiclky skimmed
> They are in full denial mode
> ...


This was originally pumped up by Russia a long time before the coronavirus made the news, same narrative though. You will not have seen the last of it as the weeks draw by.


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## randynewmanscat (22 Mar 2020)

Andy_R said:


> Thinking like that requires a special kind of stupid....


....and a good shepherd to steer you into the rabbit hole, a Russian shepherd.


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## PK99 (22 Mar 2020)

randynewmanscat said:


> This was originally pumped up by Russia a long time before the coronavirus made the news, same narrative though. You will not have seen the last of it as the weeks draw by.



Sadly, you are correct.

The FB page the various comments are from is that of a RABBIDLY anti-vaxx homeopath who espouses CEASE therapy for autistic children, thinks Chemtrails are real. think 9/11 was an Israeli/US conspiracy. She is a profoundly dangerous and disturbed lady


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## randynewmanscat (23 Mar 2020)

PK99 said:


> Sadly, you are correct.
> 
> The FB page the various comments are from is that of a RABBIDLY anti-vaxx homeopath who espouses CEASE therapy for autistic children, thinks Chemtrails are real. think 9/11 was an Israeli/US conspiracy. She is a profoundly dangerous and disturbed lady


She sounds like recruitment material if she, if she is a she, is not already a shining star at the IRA.


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## Fab Foodie (23 Mar 2020)

PK99 said:


> Sadly, you are correct.
> 
> The FB page the various comments are from is that of a RABBIDLY anti-vaxx homeopath who espouses CEASE therapy for autistic children, thinks Chemtrails are real. think 9/11 was an Israeli/US conspiracy. She is a profoundly dangerous and disturbed lady


...sounds a complete Tim Martin....


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## randynewmanscat (10 May 2021)

Well Fab I think I found them. They are currently filling the BTL section of any Covid vaccine related story in the Daily Excess. The DE being a helpful news outlet is sensationalising the vaccine stories to garner more clicks, the editors are steering a course just about unlikely to be censured.
*"AstraZeneca vaccine latest: Five worrying side effects to spot - urgent warning issued"*

The comments are pretty much the same as any flat earth youtube video comments, same deflections, misquotes and citing of bogus source materials but vaccine related rather than the shape of our planet.


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## Chris S (10 May 2021)

RE: "Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?"
Perhaps they're all dead?


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## randynewmanscat (10 May 2021)

Chris S said:


> RE: "Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?"
> Perhaps they're all dead?


Don't tempt me to make the obvious retort that they should be, oh I just did. 
My reasonable friends tell me I am too hard on the flat earth and anti vax folk, if only they knew my true feelings. 
Brian Cox said that the moon landing truthers should all be run over by a bus (moderate paraphrase).


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## Unkraut (10 May 2021)

Let's have a song now, shall we?!

Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the anti-vaxxers gone?
The doctors pricked them every one.
Oh, When will you ever learn?
Oh, When will you ever learn?


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## mustang1 (10 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Anyone know what their spin on CV19 is?



I lured them all off the edge of the earth.


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## slowmotion (10 May 2021)

The anti-vaxxers have seen the error of their ways and are getting all boozed-up in Buffalo, New York.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/10/buffalo-free-beer-program-overcome-vaccine-hesitancy


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## HMS_Dave (11 May 2021)

Perhaps they've all been fried by 5G signals?


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## captain nemo1701 (11 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Anyone know what their spin on CV19 is?


Its all a govt conspiracy to inject us with mind-control nanoprobes to make us all vote Tory & forget that the Earth is really flat, Elvis is alive & well etc.


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## classic33 (11 May 2021)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Its all a govt conspiracy to inject us with mind-control nanoprobes to make us all vote Tory & forget that the Earth is really flat, Elvis is alive & well etc.


Well the vaccines were developed under "Operation Warp Speed", in the US, you might get Klingon DNA.


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## PeteXXX (11 May 2021)

They're listening to ~UKColumn~


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## steve292 (11 May 2021)

I had a glimpse at that. Hard to believe these people exist isn't it?


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## winjim (11 May 2021)

The more the vaccines are used for Tory propaganda, the more anti-vaxx I become.


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## captain nemo1701 (11 May 2021)

classic33 said:


> Well the vaccines were developed under "Operation Warp Speed", in the US, you might get Klingon DNA.


Don't you just love it when old tv shows have penetrated culture so deeply.


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## classic33 (11 May 2021)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Don't you just love it when old tv shows have penetrated culture so deeply.


Wonder if this is the "fight back"?





Live long and prosper


Less than 24 hours old.


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## All uphill (11 May 2021)

The anti vaxxers always remind me some people feel better believing "they" are persecuting me, than believing "they" don't care.

Also that it feels better to be reviled than ignored.

Personally the only time I don't like being invisible is when I am cycling in traffic .😁


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## SpokeyDokey (11 May 2021)

captain nemo1701 said:


> Its all a govt conspiracy *to inject us with mind-control nanoprobes to make us all vote Tory* & forget that the Earth is really flat, Elvis is alive & well etc.



To be fair to the AV's, that initiative does appear to be working.


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## randynewmanscat (12 May 2021)

slowmotion said:


> The anti-vaxxers have seen the error of their ways and are getting all boozed-up in Buffalo, New York.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/10/buffalo-free-beer-program-overcome-vaccine-hesitancy


It's like something from South Park or the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. 
I'm surprised they weren't offering free weed and recreational drugs too.


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## randynewmanscat (12 May 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> They're listening to ~UKColumn~


Ah Brian Gerrish, we met online a long time ago.
Another who I would not cross the street to wee on him if he was on fire. 
An archetypal snake oil vendor.


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## PeteXXX (12 May 2021)

randynewmanscat said:


> Ah Brian Gerrish, we met online a long time ago.
> Another who I would not cross the street to wee on him if he was on fire.
> An archetypal snake oil vendor.


Apparently, they do a lunchtime broadcast on the site. Someone I work with was trying to get me to listen to it. I don't think I'll bother..


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## randynewmanscat (12 May 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> Apparently, they do a lunchtime broadcast on the site. Someone I work with was trying to get me to listen to it. I don't think I'll bother.


No, not the most productive use of time.


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## randynewmanscat (12 May 2021)

Eudravigilance and the MHRA yellow card scheme are currently the most misquoted, out of context quotes, totally fabricated stats victims of the mischief makers. 
Up to and including made up screen shots with not inconsiderable mortality numbers due to vaccination. 
The battle for your vaccine decision is being fought with some effort by people who want you to fear vaccines.


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## winjim (13 May 2021)

Antivaxxers now suggesting they might need to protect themselves from the vaccinated, by... wearing masks and practising social distancing.

Edit: forgot link.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/88n...kingto-protect-themselves-from-the-vaccinated


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## Unkraut (13 May 2021)

winjim said:


> The more the vaccines are used for Tory propaganda, the more anti-vaxx I become.


I would have thought you would have supported a vaccine against Tory propaganda ...


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## Unkraut (13 May 2021)

Anyway what I was going to say was I heard an epidemiologist last night saying that there are two choices with regards to covid - either get vaccintated or be infected. The virus will in the end spread across the entire population, so those who refuse to be vaccinated will be infected, and will have the same experience as all those who have done so so far have, namely symptomless, bad flu or serious hospitalisation and sometimes a fatal outcome. 10% of those seriously infected will suffer longer-term consequences. 

It is the virus that determines this, not the YT footage seen or sundry conspiracy theories.


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## Ajax Bay (9 Jun 2021)

Persuading the vaccine hesitant (rather than trying to 'turn' the anti-vaxxers) was the topic of this OCEANS study.

For the one in ten# who say they won’t take a COVID-19 vaccine, messaging that focuses on personal rather than collective benefits is more effective.
University of Oxford research
representative group of 18,885 UK adults
responses to a variety of COVID-19 vaccine messaging
published 13 May in _The Lancet Public Health_.
The OCEANS III study revealed that the most effective way of encouraging strongly vaccine-hesitant individuals to consider vaccination was to emphasise the personal benefit of the jab, highlighting the fact that you can’t be sure, even if you’re relatively young and fit, that you won’t get seriously ill or struggle with long-term COVID-related problems. This group was also receptive to information that directly addressed fears that the vaccines have been developed too fast to be safe and effective.
‘Much of the official messaging around COVID-19 vaccination draws on the idea of collective responsibility – that it benefits all of us to get the jab. For most that's fine but for those who remain sceptical about COVID-19 vaccination, the best approach now may be putting personal benefits front and centre in media campaigns.
‘There may be two things going on here. First, if you don’t trust the safety of the vaccines, you’ll be worried about what getting the jab will do to you. The decision-making process gets dominated by personal risk concerns. The best way to counter those concerns, therefore, is to highlight the opposite: personal benefits. Second, we know that people who are vaccine hesitant are more likely to feel marginalised. People who feel that society does not care about them may be less likely to be receptive to messaging that relies for its effectiveness on a sense of belonging.’
Since the start of the COVID-19 vaccination programme in the UK, acceptance rates in the population have increased substantially. In December half of people taking part in OCEANS-II said that they would get the vaccine as soon as possible, where now in OCEANS-III almost three quarters of participants said they’d get the vaccine as soon as possible. Nevertheless, nearly one in ten people remain strongly vaccine hesitant.
'Vaccine-hesitancy has not disappeared. The effectiveness of the COVID-19 vaccination programme depends on mass participation: the greater the number of people vaccinated, the less risk to us all. It is therefore crucial that as many people as possible are willing to get the jab. We must remember too that COVID-19 in all its variant forms is unlikely to vanish. It will most likely be necessary to vaccinate the population on a regular and continuing basis. This high-stakes communications challenge will confront us for many years to come.’

# A month on, ONS data found 6% of adults reporting vaccine hesitancy. This was higher in 16 to 29-year-olds, Black or Black British adults and in deprived areas.


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## randynewmanscat (9 Jun 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> This high-stakes communications challenge will confront us for many years to come.’


So far so good with the UK, the tinfoil hat (mainly re vaccination) is not strong there. I drove past Rue Louis Pasteur today, grinned and recalled how many times I have seen that name on a street sign many times, hero of France.
Meanwhile Bill Gates and its unproven and changes your genetics like, and it was rushed still grip a good chalk of the population of France.


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## ebikeerwidnes (9 Jun 2021)

Where have they gone

Well here is one

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/09/sherri-tenpenny-magnetized-vaccine-ohio/

Honestly - do you get a doctorate with a correspondence course in the US
p.s. apparently she is an Osteopath - so maybe they are more lax about that than I would expect


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## Beebo (10 Jun 2021)

Naomi Wolf too. 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57374241
She’s another non medical doctor with odd views.


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## ebikeerwidnes (10 Jun 2021)

Beebo said:


> Naomi Wolf too.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57374241
> She’s another non medical doctor with odd views.


I like the idea that the faeces and urine of vacinated people should be seperated and stored until etc etc etc 
so it does not get into the drinking water

So - I wonder - where does she think (I use the word loosely there) that DRINKING water comes from???
ours comes from a reservoir - filled by rain and streams which are filled by rain
not from the sewers

anyway

people


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## rockyroller (10 Jun 2021)

Unkraut said:


> sometimes a fatal outcome


6,000 ppl died from covid in India in just 1 day, yesterday. so yeah, sometimes a fatal outcome


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## classic33 (11 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I like the idea that the faeces and urine of vacinated people should be seperated and stored until etc etc etc
> so it does not get into the drinking water
> 
> So - I wonder - where does she think (I use the word loosely there) that DRINKING water comes from???
> ...


Where do you think the water from water treatment works ends up?


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## Beebo (11 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I like the idea that the faeces and urine of vacinated people should be seperated and stored until etc etc etc
> so it does not get into the drinking water
> 
> So - I wonder - where does she think (I use the word loosely there) that DRINKING water comes from???
> ...


For a clever woman she is very silly. How does she think it would be possible to separate one person’s urine from another in a district sewage treatment plant?


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## winjim (11 Jun 2021)

Beebo said:


> For a clever woman she is very silly. How does she think it would be possible to separate one person’s urine from another in a district sewage treatment plant?


For a clever woman, yes. But she is not a clever woman.


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## oldwheels (11 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I like the idea that the faeces and urine of vacinated people should be seperated and stored until etc etc etc
> so it does not get into the drinking water
> 
> So - I wonder - where does she think (I use the word loosely there) that DRINKING water comes from???
> ...


I am given to understand that London tap water is recycled and not necessarily by rain falling from the sky.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2021)

oldwheels said:


> I am given to understand that London tap water is recycled and not necessarily by rain falling from the sky.



Quite a few times, waste not....


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## neil_merseyside (12 Jun 2021)

London water (through everyone x times?) is miraculous in that it disproves homeopathy theory completely in 7 I think 'iterations' (so Kevin Bacon iterated in the Thames the dirty bar steward?).


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## Unkraut (12 Jun 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> London water (through everyone x times?) ...


When drinking a glass of water in London, then, I assume this is the origin of the saying 'Here we go again'! ...


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## newfhouse (20 Jun 2021)

Where have they gone? To Telegram apparently.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...rity-after-anti-vaxxer-death-threats-to-staff


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## captain nemo1701 (24 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Where have they gone
> 
> Well here is one
> 
> ...


 It still should cover basic science 101: Humans aren't magnetic even if we have iron in our blood.

Here's another mentally challenged anti vax nutter:
Van Tam gets hassled by anti vax lunatic


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## AuroraSaab (24 Jun 2021)

I found out yesterday that the elderly couple next door but one are not having the jab. They have grandchildren whom they frequently look after. My friends middle aged black work colleague won't have it either. All perfectly normal, intelligent folk, not at all anti-science in other matters. I can understand some initial worry, but enough of the population have had it now to ease these fears surely.


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## Craig the cyclist (24 Jun 2021)

They are all still out there.

Increasing reports of issues at vaccination centres, also most schools and hospitals have been served with various crackpot legal notices to stop vaccinating or educating about the benefits of vaccination against Covid.


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## GetFatty (24 Jun 2021)

fossyant said:


> Quite a few times, waste not....


It's been said that London water is the cleanest in the world. Any water that has passed through so many kidneys must be clean by now


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## MrGrumpy (25 Jun 2021)

Living up in the frozen North does have some benefits. The water straight from the tap tastes good ! Anyway as you were, back to the anti vax tin pot discussion.


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## shep (25 Jun 2021)

Fella at work won't have it, purely because "no-ones telling me to have something that I don't know what's in it". 

Thing is he's pretty fit so probably wouldn't be affected too much, his elderly parents, his kids and Missus have all had it and from what I can gather all his friends Inc us work colleagues have had it so not really an issue in my eyes, he's just being a c**k.

It is however an issue when 20,000 people like him all live in the same community, are of all ages and live in each others pockets, that's where it becomes a problem. 

They knacker it up for everyone else.


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## GetFatty (25 Jun 2021)




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## shep (25 Jun 2021)

Dunno, why do the Bame lot seem loath to get done? Apparently anyway.


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## Craig the cyclist (25 Jun 2021)

shep said:


> Dunno, why do the Bame lot seem loath to get done? Apparently anyway.



'Cultural issues', seriously, that is the most often stated reason I hear.

Which is weird, because the mother countries for lots of these communities are crying out for vaccine and are jabbing anyone they can get their hands on, with queues at clinics and not a 'cultural issue' in sight!


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## AuroraSaab (25 Jun 2021)

Rumours that it contains pork/meat probably affected the low Muslim and Hindu uptake. In the US there's a bit of a history of testing stuff on the black community before whites, so that might come into it over there. Possibly just less trust in science generally.

Hopefully as more people get the jab without effects, these concerns will go.


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## Craig the cyclist (25 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> Rumours that it contains pork/meat probably affected the low Muslim and Hindu uptake. In the US there's a bit of a history of testing stuff on the black community before whites, so that might come into it over there. Possibly just less trust in science generally.
> 
> Hopefully as more people get the jab without effects, these concerns will go.



It is just peculiar that those rumours, which were worldwide do not seem to have the same impact in Delhi as in towns in the UK with large Asian populations. I wonder if people literally dieing in the street in front of you somewhat focuses your mind?


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## AuroraSaab (25 Jun 2021)

It is odd. You would think in a close community, like many Asian communities are, that they would all know someone who has died from covid by now, or at least been seriously ill. We live near a care home and last year there were frequently ambulances and funeral vans arriving. It's very sobering.

I think you're right about India itself though - when you see it tearing through the population, and you know that there are no hospital beds for you unless you are wealthy, it probably makes having the vaccination less of a decision.

There's also a sense of fate that you often get in religious communities that there is less of in western culture. 

I wonder how much the heartbreaking scenes in India have affected the current UK take up rate.


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## classic33 (25 Jun 2021)

shep said:


> Dunno, why do the Bame lot seem loath to get done? Apparently anyway.


The Irish over here seem to just as keen as any other group, as do the Polish.
Both Minority Ethnic groups.


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## shep (25 Jun 2021)

classic33 said:


> The Irish over here seem to just as keen as any other group, as do the Polish.
> Both Minority Ethnic groups.


Can't really make sense of what you're saying to be honest?


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## Cirrus (29 Jun 2021)

Harassing Chris Whitty by the looks of it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57648608 Hopefully the police can find something to prosecute them for.


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## vickster (29 Jun 2021)

Cirrus said:


> Harassing Chris Whitty by the looks of it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57648608 Hopefully the police can find something to prosecute them for.


Assault would be a start

_The video shows two men laughing and jeering as they grab hold of Prof Whitty, who struggles to free himself._

3 months at Belmarsh would be too good for the morons


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## Johnno260 (29 Jun 2021)

vickster said:


> Assault would be a start
> 
> _The video shows two men laughing and jeering as they grab hold of Prof Whitty, who struggles to free himself._
> 
> 3 months at Belmarsh would be too good for the morons



Its disgusting behaviour, I hope they get caught and the book thrown at them.


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## AuroraSaab (29 Jun 2021)

Saw earlier that Whitty doesn't wish to press charges. I can see that he wouldn't want the stress of a court case, but I hope the police pursue it regardless. Also saw the photos of people outside his flat shouting 'murderer'. Shameful.

On a brighter note, it was moving to see the crowd at Wimbledon giving a standing ovation to vaccine developer Sarah Gilbert.


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## welsh dragon (29 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> Saw earlier that Whitty doesn't wish to press charges. I can see that he wouldn't want the stress of a court case, but I hope the police pursue it regardless. Also saw the photos of people outside his flat shouting 'murderer'. Shameful.
> 
> On a brighter note, it was moving to see the crowd at Wimbledon giving a standing ovation to vaccine developer Sarah Gilbert.


I thought that was such a nice thing to do. She deserved it.


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## Craig the cyclist (29 Jun 2021)

classic33 said:


> The Irish over here seem to just as keen as any other group, *as do the Polish.*



Interesting you have written that, I think I would have said that too.. 

However, there are special materials being developed, in Polish, due to the low take up in Polish communities.


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## Bromptonaut (29 Jun 2021)

shep said:


> Can't really make sense of what you're saying to be honest?



Probably because your original post was unclear; which part of BAME exactly were you getting at?


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## Fab Foodie (30 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> On a brighter note, it was moving to see the crowd at Wimbledon giving a standing ovation to vaccine developer Sarah Gilbert.


She plays pro-tennis as well?


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## Craig the cyclist (30 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> She plays pro-tennis as well?



Not at all, but with the vaccine all sorted now she is heading up the team covering Number One court if it rains. She was going to be on the Centre Court, but Jonathon vanTam is doing that team because Chris Witty has been called back up to press conferencing.


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## shep (30 Jun 2021)

Bromptonaut said:


> Probably because your original post was unclear; which part of BAME exactly were you getting at?


Whichever one's that get reported on the News about for not taking up the vaccine, I don't know who they are?


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## Cirrus (30 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> Saw earlier that Whitty doesn't wish to press charges. I can see that he wouldn't want the stress of a court case, but I hope the police pursue it regardless. Also saw the photos of people outside his flat shouting 'murderer'. Shameful.
> 
> On a brighter note, it was moving to see the crowd at Wimbledon giving a standing ovation to vaccine developer Sarah Gilbert.


It must have been particularly unnerving for him as his diplomat father was sought out and murdered by terrorists in Athens when, I believe, Chris was 17 years old.


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## Landsurfer (30 Jun 2021)

shep said:


> Whichever one's that get reported on the News about for not taking up the vaccine, I don't know who they are?


Lets see, South Asian indigenous people living in non integrated parts of the UK.
Or even, people of Pakistani / Indian heritage.


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## shep (30 Jun 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Lets see, South Asian indigenous people living in non integrated parts of the UK.
> Or even, people of Pakistani / Indian heritage.


Them's the one's.


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## winjim (30 Jun 2021)

Cirrus said:


> Harassing Chris Whitty by the looks of it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57648608 Hopefully the police can find something to prosecute them for.


What makes you think they are antivaxxers?


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## GetFatty (30 Jun 2021)

The CMO used to be provided with an official car which would have prevented Whitty being harassed in public but the Tories withdrew it (probably cos they couldn't see a way to make a profit from it)


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## Cirrus (30 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> What makes you think they are antivaxxers?


True enough, you necessarilly have to be an antivaxxer to be a knobber I suppose...


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## Johnno260 (30 Jun 2021)

There is a lot of anti vax on facebook I see less now since I had to block the worst offenders in my friends for comments made to my wife.

The Freedom march at the weekend was pretty large, I made some comments and made one of the expose that he was a chem trail believer and a flat earther which didn't help his case.

I have a special kind of contempt for these people, I don't like what some have called me wife, she is a nurse, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say what's she has been compared to.






A relative posted the above, then messaged me directly, calling my wife a murderer. 

I feel the miss-information they spread is dangerous, it’s why I go out of my way to expose their lies.


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## welsh dragon (30 Jun 2021)

There were a lot of antivaxers on tiktok all proclaiming all sorts of psueodo babble rubbish including showing people how magnets stuck to people's arms after some have had the jab, not to mention how it changes people's DNA. It was amazing how people that looked relatively normal and sane could believe such garbage. 

Most have disappeared now as so many people told them to go forth and that enough is enough. 

There are only 1 or 2 left now. So I would say most have just shut up as people are not interested or care if they have the vacination or not.


----------



## KnittyNorah (30 Jun 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I feel the miss-information they spread is dangerous,


It most certainly is. Life-threateningly dangerous. 



Johnno260 said:


> it’s why I go out of my way to expose their lies.


GOOD FOR YOU. Carry on doing it; even if you sow a seed of doubt - that all the propaganda might not be quite what it seems - in just one anti-vaxxer's or prospective anti-vaxxer's mind, it is worthwhile.


----------



## AuroraSaab (30 Jun 2021)

I didn't particularly get the impression the idiots harassing Chris Whitty were anti-vaxxers. They looked more like the kind of oiks who would harass anybody they saw who they didn't like, or who was mildly famous, simply because they found it amusing.

At the very least I hope they are named and shamed.

I wonder if the reduced take up amongst the Polish community is because they are a younger demographic than most, and thus don't feel as worried about catching it, or if it's just language problems or not being registered at a GP. Younger people are a lot more blasé about it I have found. They don't seem as concerned about catching it or killing grandma.


----------



## MrGrumpy (1 Jul 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> I didn't particularly get the impression the idiots harassing Chris Whitty were anti-vaxxers. They looked more like the kind of oiks who would harass anybody they saw who they didn't like, or who was mildly famous, simply because they found it amusing.
> 
> At the very least I hope they are named and shamed.
> 
> I wonder if the reduced take up amongst the Polish community is because they are a younger demographic than most, and thus don't feel as worried about catching it, or if it's just language problems or not being registered at a GP. Younger people are a lot more blasé about it I have found. They don't seem as concerned about catching it or killing grandma.


They have been named and shamed, idiots of the highest order. An utter disgrace dregs of society .


----------



## vickster (1 Jul 2021)

Numpties have been identified and one of them has lost his job. Claimed they meant no harm and were just having a larf wanting a selfie  and have apologised (bit late, nobbers)
One report said they had been to the anti vax march, so either anti vaxxers, complete muppets or both

Man apologises over Prof Chris Whitty park footage https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57675176


----------



## vickster (1 Jul 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> They have been named and shamed, idiots of the highest order. An utter disgrace dregs of society .


Not sure they are utter dregs (there are plenty worse) but rather thick, inconsiderate, unthinking young white men (and probably women) of which there seem to be more and more these days 

hopefully they've learnt a lesson about what is acceptable and not actually funny


----------



## Mugshot (1 Jul 2021)

Now this I can get behind! 


View: https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1410401013425590272?s=19


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (1 Jul 2021)

The people who assaulted Chris Whittey seemed to think that as he is a known person then they were perfectly entitled to get a selfie with him
and that he should co-operate - they were in fact entitled to his co-operation


total numpties

One has lost his job as an Estate Agent - although I suspect 'assistant in an Estate Agent shop' may be a better description
Anyway - hope he likes stacking shelves in ASDA or delivering pizzas on a bike


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (1 Jul 2021)

Mugshot said:


> Now this I can get behind!
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1410401013425590272?s=19



I have trouble believing this 'movement' is real - more like a comedy thing to show how dumb conspiracy theories can be

EXCEPT

that in the current climate people seem to grab hold of something and go 'all in' on it and the next thing you know the whole thing has become a real movement of true believers 
I really can't tell where on that slippery slope this thing is up to

If it is all satire - it is really well done!


----------



## Profpointy (1 Jul 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I have trouble believing this 'movement' is real - more like a comedy thing to show how dumb conspiracy theories can be
> 
> EXCEPT
> 
> ...



I suspect many of these things started as satire. At one point Patrick Moore joined the Flat Earth Society and was talking about it on TV as it appealed to his sense of whimsy and silliness. He left soon after when he was doubtless horrified to discover they actually believed it.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (1 Jul 2021)

It all seems very convincing

Unless you look carefully rather than just read it - oh - and you need to think a bit
not much - just a bit

I can see how the 'hard of thinking' can really start to believe this stuff


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Jul 2021)

Profpointy said:


> I suspect many of these things started as satire. At one point Patrick Moore joined the Flat Earth Society and was talking about it on TV as it appealed to his sense of whimsy and silliness. He left soon after when he was doubtless horrified to discover they actually believed it.



Some Flat earthers use him joining as proof it's true, then ignore the fact he left and thinking it was people having a laugh.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

Saw many posting these yesterday.
















My Uncle sent this one to my mother. 






So yea they’re around. 

Edit had to blue out a bad word on first image.


----------



## Beebo (6 Jul 2021)

I was at Kings Hospital yesterday. 
There was a group of about 4 people with drums and megaphones giving it large. 
It really was pathetic seeing them shouting at the Doctors and Nurses as they arrived for work.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> I was at Kings Hospital yesterday.
> There was a group of about 4 people with drums and megaphones giving it large.
> It really was pathetic seeing them shouting at the Doctors and Nurses as they arrived for work.



When I had my 2nd Pfizer shot as I left the premises there were anti vax’ers handing out leaflets at the exit!

I said it kinda shows there mentality the leaflet got thrown in the bin in full view which triggered them.


----------



## Pale Rider (6 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> When I had my 2nd Pfizer shot as I left the premises there were anti vax’ers handing out leaflets at the exit!
> 
> I said it kinda shows there mentality the leaflet got thrown in the bin in full view which triggered them.
> 
> View attachment 597591



You should produce a counter leaflet urging people to protect themselves from those who cannot spell.


----------



## fossyant (6 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> When I had my 2nd Pfizer shot as I left the premises there were anti vax’ers handing out leaflets at the exit!
> 
> I said it kinda shows there mentality the leaflet got thrown in the bin in full view which triggered them.
> 
> View attachment 597591



You should have eaten it ! Then coughed on them


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> You should have eaten it ! Then coughed on them


 
He did follow me to the car spouting total nonsense, when he stood behind me I said l’m reversing and I won’t stop, when he laughed I said I will probably get a medal for it. 

These people are total idiots, told me I was virtue signalling for wearing a mask, I said anyone can copy fancy phrases and use them in the wrong context.


----------



## fossyant (6 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> He did follow me to the car spouting total nonsense, when he stood behind me I said l’m reversing and I won’t stop, when he laughed I said I will probably get a medal for it.
> 
> These people are total idiots, told me I was virtue signalling for wearing a mask, I said anyone can copy fancy phrases and use them in the wrong context.



It's strange how this tiny minority don't think and say, 'hmm maybe all these other people must be right ?. Oh no, these hundreds of people walking past us 'four' are all idiot 'sheep'.


----------



## vickster (6 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> It's strange how this tiny minority don't think and say, 'hmm maybe all these other people must be right ?. Oh no, these hundreds of people walking past us 'four' are all idiot 'sheep'.


FTFY


----------



## newfhouse (6 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> View attachment 597586


Fortunately my immune system is attuned to the telltale signature carried by harmful messages such as this. If most or every word is Capitalised it is easily recognised and doesn't get past my defences.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Fortunately my immune system is attuned to the telltale signature carried by harmful messages such as this. If most or every word is Capitalised it is easily recognised and doesn't get past my defences.



Mate he is a qualified Dr if you google him he actually goes against what he got his doctorate in!

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/mar/13/measles-sceptic-must-pay-doctor-100000


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

vickster said:


> FTFY



Vickster nailed it as always


----------



## newfhouse (6 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> if you google him


I won't be doing that.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

newfhouse said:


> I won't be doing that.



Let's just say he is qualified as in he has a piece of paper that says he has a doctorate, but he has spent time and effort trying to disprove what he has a doctorate in, and he has been sued multiple times for harm caused by his beliefs that he as printed.

Just as he has Dr in front of his name doesn't mean he is in anyway mentally stable, he is like that Dr Vernon Coleman a certifiable nut.


----------



## newfhouse (6 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Let's just say he is qualified as in he has a piece of paper that says he has a doctorate, but he has spent time and effort trying to disprove what he has a doctorate in, and he has been sued multiple times for harm caused by his beliefs that he as printed.
> 
> Just as he has Dr in front of his name doesn't mean he is in anyway mentally stable.


Don't give him the oxygen he craves. You'll feel happier.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Don't give him the oxygen he craves. You'll feel happier.



True but I take a very dim view on people spouting off false claims like these that put others at risk.

Also I take it personally as a few members of my family have gone so far down the conspiracy rabbit hole they're permanent residents in WonderLand.

These same family members have said some very horrific things to my wife who is a nurse, she has been called a government puppet, actress, murderer, compared to Shipman and an SS Nazi, these people are blocked now, but it was a shocking experience from people I would never think this of, when I called them out for their vile rhetoric all I got back was oh one of the vaccine side effects is it makes people angry, they didn't even see the total abhorrence in what they wrote.

Also comments like don't worry when the vaccine kills you I hope you have good insurance to invest in your child's future with a don't worry we will look after them when you die, this actually prompted us to re-word our wills, I have it in stone that this could never happen now.

You're right and in some ways, many ways it's wasted effort, but I have managed to sway some people back from the edge and I got a few facebook accounts and groups banned and some youtube channels de-platformed, I know you can't save the diehards, but it's the people they can influence.

One anti masker was raging on facebook about masks and he mentioned chem trails, all I said was next you will tell me you're a flat earther, he then went off on a huge rant about that and 10 people said I'm out not following you, win 1 for me, the next bread crumb exposed his anti Semitic beliefs and he got banned within 10mins, people like this shouldn't have a platform.

Sorry for the wall! lol

Edit: my next target is a guy who is claiming ultrasounds are retardation devices, yes you read that right..


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> It's strange how this tiny minority don't think and say, 'hmm maybe all these other people must be right ?. Oh no, these hundreds of people walking past us 'four' are all idiot 'sheep'.



The anti-vaxx idiots are just displaying their profound and disrespectful ignorance by persisting in this ridiculous mythology that sheep are stupid creatures moping about on mountains and doing what they're told. In reality, sheep are complex and sociable, building and maintaining long-term friendships and relationships when given the opportunity, and _far_ more intelligent than most people imagine. 

So the anti-vaxxers might want to think again about using the term 'sheep' as an insult to ordinary normal people ... I bet any sheep on a mountainside has more sense of social responsibility than does a typical anti-vaxxer.


----------



## PeteXXX (6 Jul 2021)

They taste nice, too... (Not the anti-vaxxers)


----------



## AuroraSaab (6 Jul 2021)

I think it's worth remembering that it doesn't take much to sway some people. It only took one poorly researched article in The Lancet to kick off the autism/vaccination scare. 

Most people who've declined the vaccine aren't uneducated, gullible, or raving conspiracy theorists. They are ordinary people who have seen a lot of media stuff and thought 'There must be something in it if so many people are making a fuss'. Whereas most of us have read it and enquired further, and then made a decision on the balance of probability that the jab is safe, they didn't. 

I do think most of them will come around eventually.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Jul 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> They taste nice, too... (Not the anti-vaxxers)


And make nice clothes and simply delicious cheese and yoghurt.

Unlike anti-vaxxers, who are of no current or future practical use, as far as I can see.


----------



## neil_merseyside (6 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> And make nice clothes and simply delicious cheese and yoghurt.
> 
> Unlike anti-vaxxers, who are of no current or future practical use, as far as I can see.


Soylent green anyone? Would they taste as distasteful as all the spouting is?


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Jul 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> I think it's worth remembering that it doesn't take much to sway some people. It only took one poorly researched article in The Lancet to kick off the autism/vaccination scare.
> 
> Most people who've declined the vaccine aren't uneducated, gullible, or raving conspiracy theorists. They are ordinary people who have seen a lot of media stuff and thought 'There must be something in it if so many people are making a fuss'. Whereas most of us have read it and enquired further, and then made a decision on the balance of probability that the jab is safe, they didn't.
> 
> I do think most of them will come around eventually.



For sure some will be hesitant due to all the information out there, but these aren't the vocal ones in fact these are the exact people that need to have a sensible chat with someone, but I can respect their point if view.

Its the loons screaming total nonsense and filling an already overflowing information pool with total nonsense, I take issue with.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Jul 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Soylent green anyone? Would they taste as distasteful as all the spouting is?



I wouldn't know, , I'm (mainly) vegetarian! But I don't have to taste something to know that it'd leave a bad taste in my mouth ...


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Jul 2021)

lol I had a great discussion on a science forum, there is some douche in the USA called Stew Peters total trash fear monger show.

His guest claimed the Pfizer vaccine was 99.99% Graphene Oxide, the guys I was talking to took the mass density of GO, worked used the vial size and worked out that the show was talking utter dribble as the base density of the material was way way lower than what was in the bottle it was funny watching the anti vaxers crumble to maths.

Seeing actual science maths and reason crush these fools was glorious.


----------



## Johnno260 (22 Jul 2021)

Anti Vax logic


----------



## Johnno260 (23 Jul 2021)

haha oh dear, I stirred up too many anti vax on Facebook, I posted the actual results to a false claim about the Covid vaccines, and I got multiple spam reports and banned for 7 days, for posting the correct information to counter a false claim! haha


----------



## fossyant (23 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> haha oh dear, I stirred up to many anti vax on Facebook, I posted the actual results to a false claim about the Covid vaccines, and I got multiple spam reports and banned for 7 days, for posting the correct information to counter a false claim! haha



Don't worry, there are quite a few reports of them being very ill or dying of covid now, or was it covid ? Heard one person was rather poorly, but still denied it was Covid, yet tested positive.


----------



## Johnno260 (23 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> Don't worry, there are quite a few reports of them being very ill or dying of covid now, or was it covid ? Heard one person was rather poorly, but still denied it was Covid, yet tested positive.



If you follow some which I did, the claim it's the other way around, and pull figures from thin air on the subject.

I have been following anti 5G as well, a guy called Mark Steele now there is a total psycho, with unfortunately a rather large following, he "claims" as in his words he is "a very very expert" that 5G and the mobile controllers we see on street lighting is a "phased array kill grid" that will sync with the Graphene in our bodies from the vaccines.

I won't even go into the depopulation theorists those guys are off the charts insane and need urgent help.


----------



## welsh dragon (23 Jul 2021)

The internet is a wonderful thing. However in the wrong hands armchair prowlers suddenly become experts and then pass they're new found expertise onto others.

It's a bit like Chinese whispers. The story turns more and more into a fantasy of absolute twaddle that is so far beyond believable as to be more than a bit of a joke, from it changes your DNA to the government can track you (even more so than you're phone already can) to magnets will stick to you're arm..and the list goes on and on. And don't forget that the jab is killing hundreds of thousands not this non existent virus.

It's only after so many millions of people have had the jab, and so many of the anti vaxers have gone onto getting Covid19 and becoming seriously ill or dying and many people telling them to shut up as we are tired of the same old song being played that they finally stopped and faded away Into the background. 

There were hundreds on Tiktok, now just about all of them have shut up and gone away. People were taking the Mick out of them and they're magnet truth . It beggars belief just how many incredibly stupid people there are especially on social media platforms.

They can be good for a laugh for about 30 seconds. Then they are booed off the platform in no uncertain terms.

Simply, they have faded away as they're claims have been debunked and they have been made to look and tad foolish.

The bottom line is, have the jab or not. No one cares if you don't believe it and don't have the jab. If you then get Covid19, then take responsibility for that.


----------



## Johnno260 (23 Jul 2021)

welsh dragon said:


> The internet is a wonderful thing. However in the wrong hands armchair prowlers suddenly become experts and then pass they're new found expertise onto others.
> 
> It's a bit like Chinese whispers. The story turns more and more into a fantasy of absolute twaddle that is so far beyond believable as to be more than a bit of a joke, from it changes your DNA to the government can track you (even more so than you're phone already can) to magnets will stick to you're arm..and the list goes on and on. And don't forget that the jab is killing hundreds of thousands not this non existent virus.
> 
> ...



Issue is, it's never their fault, and many take zero responsibility for their actions if they get sick then they blame it on something else. 

I had an example of one claiming no one who is young and fit is dying, the guy was also an avid fitness buff he titled it the post "The inconvenient truth" when I pointed out and said hey these are all young people, several where youtuber fitness channels and the The inconvenient truth is they all died from Covid complications, he straight away said well it's chem trails they died from! like seriously it's 2021 and people are still using this?


----------



## C R (23 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Issue is, it's never their fault, and many take zero responsibility for their actions if they get sick then they blame it on something else.
> 
> I had an example of one claiming no one who is young and fit is dying, the guy was also an avid fitness buff he titled it the post "The inconvenient truth" when I pointed out and said hey these are all young people, several where youtuber fitness channels and the The inconvenient truth is they all died from Covid complications, he straight away said well it's chem trails they died from! like seriously it's 2021 and people are still using this?


Well, chemtrails are mostly dihydrogen oxide, which is very dangerous when inhaled in significant amounts, .


----------



## fossyant (23 Jul 2021)

Just catching up with a school mate today, and one of our mates hadn't had the jab (didn't want it), who is a fit postie, wound up in high dependency with Covid and it was touch and go. He's got to wait a while now before getting the jab.


----------



## welsh dragon (23 Jul 2021)

There was a newbie on Tiktok a couple of weeks ago. Def late for the party put up a video about being an anti vaxer. I called him out on it and for missing the boat and he swore at me then blocked me


----------



## Johnno260 (23 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> Just catching up with a school mate today, and one of our mates hadn't had the jab (didn't want it), who is a fit postie, wound up in high dependency with Covid and it was touch and go. He's got to wait a while now before getting the jab.



Least he is ok now, no lasting issues? he is all ok now?


----------



## Johnno260 (24 Jul 2021)

Total and utter disgrace, everyone at that rally who clapped and cheers should be ashamed.


View: https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1418907451190038533?s=21


----------



## HMS_Dave (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Total and utter disgrace, everyone at that rally who clapped and cheers should be ashamed.
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1418907451190038533?s=21



"Science is NOT Science Without Discussion"

Interesting to stand there with that mouth of dirt standing in front of that banner...

When i was jabbed i was handed some literature. In it contained the exact list of ingredients...

You can't fix stooopid...


----------



## welsh dragon (25 Jul 2021)

I do have to wonder how many of those people that attend the rallies without masks will in fact end up with Covid19 and will then be Interviewed to tell others to get the jab.


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> "Science is NOT Science Without Discussion"
> 
> Interesting to stand there with that mouth of dirt standing in front of that banner...
> 
> ...



It’s just vile, the wheeled out Katie Hopkins as well who I can’t stand she is just a horrible person full stop, they had Mark Steele the 5G network is a phased array kill grid.

but that comment about doctors and nurses hanging left a sour taste in my mouth, I had relatives there as well.

To them science isn’t science if it doesn’t fit their narrative.


----------



## MrGrumpy (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> It’s just vile, the wheeled out Katie Hopkins as well who I can’t stand she is just a horrible person full stop, they had Mark Steele the 5G network is a phased array kill grid.
> 
> but that comment about doctors and nurses hanging left a sour taste in my mouth, I had relatives there as well.
> 
> To them science isn’t science if it doesn’t fit their narrative.


They are nothing but a bunch of fraudsters! Asking the gullible to donate money to the cause ! All this bullocks about vaccine killing people off ! Everyone in the workd is having these vaccine by that narrative there will be nobody on the is earth. If you go by the anti vax thinking ?! Nutters the lot of them .


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> They are nothing but a bunch of fraudsters! Asking the gullible to donate money to the cause ! All this bullocks about vaccine killing people off ! Everyone in the workd is having these vaccine by that narrative there will be nobody on the is earth. If you go by the anti vax thinking ?! Nutters the lot of them .



By their numbers people should be dropping dead in the streets, especially when some of them claim the vaccine is 99.9% Graphene Oxide, not that those percentages work in any reality anyway.

If we see attacks start on NHS staff now, this vile creature is directly responsible for inciting hatred towards them, I would class this as incitement and hate speech she should be in cuffs, people are welcome to free speech but this isn’t free speech it’s a rally to do harm.

I went to sleep mad as hell about this, and woke up even madder, this is modern Britain not the dark ages.


----------



## Cirrus (25 Jul 2021)

Well, this anti vaxxer has exited stage left.... 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57958358


----------



## MontyVeda (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> lol I had a great discussion on a science forum, there is some douche in the USA called Stew Peters total trash fear monger show.
> 
> *His guest claimed the Pfizer vaccine was 99.99% Graphene Oxide,* the guys I was talking to took the mass density of GO, worked used the vial size and worked out that the show was talking utter dribble as the base density of the material was way way lower than what was in the bottle it was funny watching the anti vaxers crumble to maths.
> 
> Seeing actual science maths and reason crush these fools was glorious.


Only the other day, my downstairs neighbour told me that the vaccine was Graphene. 

Last year he deduced that the manky yellow splashes of soya milk in his fridge were a result of chemtrails.


----------



## Milzy (25 Jul 2021)

My mother in law is old & frail. She has bad heart problems & can’t where a mask due to anxiety & panic related feelings. She is an anti vaxer & regularly cuts around supermarkets where people don’t use masks or social distance. I’ve always thought if she catches Covid-19 it would take her life. After 2 years of exposure to the world she hasn’t caught a cold even though she feels rough from high blood pressure & has a lowered immunity to the rest of us. 
I’m amazed she’s not scared to carry on living like normal but it’s her choice & it’s working out so far.


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> this is modern Britain not the dark ages.



You'd think and hope so, wouldn't you? 

But no, many, many people - and not just in Britain either - are _frighteningly _ignorant (and frightened of what they do not know and cannot/do not understand, which maintains and increases their ignorance) and actually prefer to keep themselves that way, being fearful of knowledge itself.

I simply don't know why or how that works as I'm no psychologist, but I think it might be that if someone who is scared of something denies hard enough and long enough to themselves and to others that it doesn't exist that makes them feel that it _actually _doesn't exist ...


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Milzy said:


> My mother in law is old & frail. She has bad heart problems & can’t where a mask due to anxiety & panic related feelings. She is an anti vaxer & regularly cuts around supermarkets where people don’t use masks or social distance. I’ve always thought if she catches Covid-19 it would take her life. After 2 years of exposure to the world she hasn’t caught a cold even though she feels rough from high blood pressure & has a lowered immunity to the rest of us.
> I’m amazed she’s not scared to carry on living like normal but it’s her choice & it’s working out so far.



Unfortunately, if she _does_ get C-19, in those few days that she's walking round the supermarkets unmasked, asymptomatic and _infectious_, she's not offering _other people _the same privilege of choice which she has been enjoying for so long ...


----------



## Mo1959 (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Unfortunately, if she _does_ get C-19, in those few days that she's walking round the supermarkets unmasked, asymptomatic and _infectious_, she's not offering _other people _the same privilege of choice which she has been enjoying for so long ...


Likewise the double vaxxed now wander round like they are invincible and are probably the ones in the supermarket wandering near her without masks and still able to spread the virus.


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

MontyVeda said:


> Only the other day, my downstairs neighbour told me that the vaccine was Graphene.
> 
> Last year he deduced that the manky yellow splashes of soya milk in his fridge were a result of chemtrails.



From an actual PHD ask them to refute that, they can read the guys entire dissertation if they please.

If they deny it they’re an anti science nut.


View: https://twitter.com/matscimatt/status/1414018907900366858?s=21


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Likewise the double vaxxed now wander round like they are invincible and are probably the ones in the supermarket wandering near her without masks and still able to spread the virus.



I’m lucky many here still use masks, I do out of common courtesy.

Still had an anti masker say how cute want me to remove the mask princess? I quite happily told him the damage I would inflict upon him if he tried to do so, I can’t be polite to these fools anymore.


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Likewise the double vaxxed now wander round like they are invincible and are probably the ones in the supermarket wandering near her without masks and still able to spread the virus.



SOME double vaxxed might; I am double vaxxed, so are most of my friends and we are all still wearing our masks as we are fully aware of the risk of both catching and transmitting C-19 when double vaxxed. 

People can put themselves at risk if they want to - but have no right whatsoever to put others at risk while doing so.


----------



## Milzy (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> SOME double vaxxed might; I am double vaxxed, so are most of my friends and we are all still wearing our masks as we are fully aware of the risk of both catching and transmitting C-19 when double vaxxed.
> 
> People can put themselves at risk if they want to - but have no right whatsoever to put others at risk while doing so.


According to our government they do have a right to put others at risk by dropping the law.


----------



## fossyant (25 Jul 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Likewise the double vaxxed now wander round like they are invincible and are probably the ones in the supermarket wandering near her without masks and still able to spread the virus.



Not from what I've seen. Most folks still wearing masks, only those 'self important' ones not doing.


----------



## fossyant (25 Jul 2021)

Mate of mine wasn't bothered about the vax. He's now waiting to be allowed it as CV19 nearly killed him recently


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Milzy said:


> According to our government they do have a right to put others at risk by dropping the law.


Does anyone with any sense believe everything - or even _any_thing, without first double and triple checking! - this shower says?


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Does anyone with any sense believe everything - or even _any_thing, without first double and triple checking! - this shower says?



that’s the thing many of these people don’t check anything they listen to what Kate Shemirani or Vernon Coleman say and take it at face value.

like those stupid claims about Graphene and the vaccine being 99.9% composed from it.

I said to someone how can a vial be 99.9% composed of a solid, yet be liquid?

their response: it’s really really small.

I get that but it’s not the size that’s relevant here it’s the %

Their response: it’s really really small are you thick?

that’s the level of utter stupidity we are dealing with.


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> many of these people don’t check anything they listen to what Kate Shemirani or Vernon Coleman say and take it at face value.



That ... subhuman specimen of the female gender. Words can't express how I feel after her words in Trafalgar Square today.


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That ... subhuman specimen of the female gender. Words can't express how I feel after her words in Trafalgar Square today.



I can’t see how she can’t get done for hate speech, people are actually defending her on social media.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (25 Jul 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Likewise the double vaxxed now wander round like they are invincible and are probably the ones in the supermarket wandering near her without masks and still able to spread the virus.


Another mask wearer who dislikes being characterised thus.


----------



## Milzy (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Does anyone with any sense believe everything - or even _any_thing, without first double and triple checking! - this shower says?


Well how come they have some of the best scientists in the world advising them but they just ignore them & say what they like then U turn straight away. It’s sending out very confusing messages which won’t save lives. As shambolic as they are still nobody wants to vote Labour or lib dems. We are stuck been lead by imbeciles for the fear of even worse imbeciles. As long as the 1% can keep the £’s rolling in that’s all that matters.


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

Seems the Met are investigating.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57962675


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Seems the Met are investigating.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57962675


And so they damned well should. I feel for her kids, the one of whom I've heard who seems like a really pleasant young adult. (Link on the page you posted)


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> And so they damned well should. I feel for her kids, the one of whom I've heard who seems like a really pleasant young adult. (Link on the page you posted)



To be honest I think from her point of view she made a huge mistake with that comment.

People in general don’t care about these nutters but she kinda has lite a spark against their claims, people on Twitter went nuts about this comment.

To normal people she will now always be that nutter who called for Nuremberg type trials for healthcare workers.


----------



## KnittyNorah (25 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> To normal people she will now always be that nutter who called for Nuremberg type trials for healthcare workers.



It's certainly something that won't - shouldn't! - be forgotten easily.


----------



## Johnno260 (25 Jul 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> It's certainly something that won't - shouldn't! - be forgotten easily.



I certainly hope so, I think most Brits actually appreciate the NHS, especially when you look around and see the situation elsewhere currently.

USA is a prime example, people will have horrific Medicare premiums after this or they are left with medical debt they will never clear.

From what I have seen on Tweeter it was on fire condemning her comments, also now the main platforms like the BBC, Sky etc are also reporting on this and it’s in a very poor light for them, let’s hope people close ranks and shut this nonsense down.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (31 Jul 2021)

View: https://youtu.be/u34rnwBnll4


Corbyn caught out


----------



## shep (31 Jul 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I’m lucky many here still use masks, I do out of common courtesy.
> 
> Still had an anti masker say how cute want me to remove the mask princess? I quite happily told him the damage I would inflict upon him if he tried to do so, I can’t be polite to these fools anymore.


I hope you extend the same courtesy to people (fools) who don't want to wear a mask?

Would you tell someone to put a mask on for example I wonder?

Maybe someone would 'inflict some damage ' on you if the roles were reversed.


----------



## KnittyNorah (31 Jul 2021)

Not wearing a mask is - IMO - in and of itself discourteous (I could use other words ...) when the unmasked are in the close proximity of those who are strangers, as it is impossible to know whether or not an unmasked person might be exhaling highly infectious doses of virus-laden air in the shared environment.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> I hope you extend the same courtesy to people (fools) who don't want to wear a mask?
> 
> Would you tell someone to put a mask on for example I wonder?
> 
> Maybe someone would 'inflict some damage ' on you if the roles were reversed.



I don’t challenge anyone, but you think someone getting in my face and laying a hand on me, and threatening to remove something from me is acceptable behaviour?

Once he lays hands on me I’m within my rights to respond, but I didn’t as if I want to hurt someone I can, that’s not an idle comment I know what I’m doing 

And sorry unless someone is exempt then in my opinion they’re a fool who could learn common social skills from a hive insect.

It’s funny as I never see anyone getting agressive to un-masked people, yet I see plenty of anti maskers being loud rude and agressive, and spouting false information.

I have also had anti Covid people approach me while with my children forcing their views upon others and scaring my kids while saying they are coming for my kids and they will kill them, you think I owe this people any kind of respect scaring kids?

like I said a hive insects has more social responsibility than some people.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> View: https://youtu.be/u34rnwBnll4
> 
> 
> Corbyn caught out




Yea follow the money the anti’s say…


----------



## Arrowfoot (1 Aug 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> View: https://youtu.be/u34rnwBnll4
> 
> 
> Corbyn caught out



I like the way he convinced himself that he was not doing anything wrong - yes I will take your money but I won't changes any policies.


----------



## shep (1 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I don’t challenge anyone, but you think someone getting in my face and laying a hand on me, and threatening to remove something from me is acceptable behaviour?
> 
> Once he lays hands on me I’m within my rights to respond, but I didn’t as if I want to hurt someone I can, that’s not an idle comment I know what I’m doing
> 
> ...


Where do you go to receive all this attention?

People laying hands on you and approaching you and your kids?

No wonder you have a problem with people who don't wear masks!

Of course this behaviour isn't acceptable and I would kick off if someone did the same to me but I don't spout on about being a fool or an insect either.

I'm sure you do 'know what you're doing '.


----------



## shep (1 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Not wearing a mask is - IMO - in and of itself discourteous (I could use other words ...) when the unmasked are in the close proximity of those who are strangers, as it is impossible to know whether or not an unmasked person might be exhaling highly infectious doses of virus-laden air in the shared environment.


When, in your opinion, would you be happy for people to stop wearing them?

It now appears another wedge has been created amongst people, those who wear a mask and those that don't.


----------



## Pale Rider (1 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I can’t see how she can’t get done for hate speech, people are actually defending her on social media.



Just because you and I disagree with her doesn't mean it's hate speech.

It's the same muddle headed thinking which calls a poster a 'troll' on here purely because they disagree with the majority view.

'Doctors', or at least a loose interpretation of the term, were tried at Nuremburg and subsequently, so it's hardly hateful to remake that observation.

Were we to have an offence of 'shite patter', Ms Shemerani would be a shoo-in.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> When, in your opinion, would you be happy for people to stop wearing them?
> 
> It now appears another wedge has been created amongst people, those who wear a mask and those that don't.



a wedge? Seriously over a mask? You may as well get upset over people wearing an item of clothing.

If a store asks you to wear one that’s their choice as a private business, if you don’t like it shop else where.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Just because you and I disagree with her doesn't mean it's hate speech.
> 
> It's the same muddle headed thinking which calls a poster a 'troll' on here purely because they disagree with the majority view.
> 
> ...



True to honest I think she is a total whacko, my main concern is if someone takes her words too literally and does something daft.

The bit I didn’t like about her speech was when she said doctors and nurses were hung get off that bus while you can.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> Where do you go to receive all this attention?
> 
> People laying hands on you and approaching you and your kids?
> 
> ...



l happen to have many anti maskers near where I live as a prominent anti Covid campaigner lives near me unfortunately, but minding my own business in a car park while I was with my kids.

And some guy who was asked to leave the local Tesco said about removing my mask himself while he grabbed my arm, I’m not saying all are like this but it’s not exactly going to endear my to their claims either is it.

I don’t have issue with people not wearing them and I haven’t reacted unless they instigate it.

I’m also allowed to think someone is a fool for not wearing one, if they want to put others at risk that says more about them than me.

As for my credentials for looking after my self, it’s one of the few things in life I’m actually totally comfortable about, I honestly don’t give a rats what you think about it.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (1 Aug 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/Shayan86/status/1421499327164334081


----------



## steve292 (1 Aug 2021)

That twitter feed is gold.


----------



## shep (1 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I honestly don’t give a rats what you think about it.


Same here my friend.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> Same here my friend.



Then why come into a thread that’s obviously pro mask and get bent out of shape about it?

it’s not my fault anti vax is basically anti science, these people are obviously just on the take anyway as they will sell their morales for the right price.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

steve292 said:


> That twitter feed is gold.



I have been following that guy for a while, he makes very good points.

The whole Piers Corbyn is the icing on the cake


----------



## shep (1 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Then why come into a thread that’s obviously pro mask and get bent out of shape about it?


I'm not anti vax at all, I had both jabs a while ago, what I am is anti being called a fool and being referred to as an insect because I no longer want to wear a mask.

So I can only comment on this forum if I agree with what you say?


----------



## Rusty Nails (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> Where do you go to receive all this attention?
> 
> People laying hands on you and approaching you and your kids?
> 
> ...


He talked about _one_ instance not a series of them, but don’t let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

Perhaps he actually mixes with people who are not all of the same opinion as him. Some people do.


----------



## Milzy (1 Aug 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> He talked about _one_ instance not a series of them, but don’t let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
> 
> Perhaps he actually mixes with people who are not all of the same opinion as him. Some people do.


We have to mix with people with other opinions don’t we? We are told that Christians Jews & Muslims can all live together happily instead of having ghettos of different races after all. 
The human race needs more tolerance.


----------



## shep (1 Aug 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> He talked about _one_ instance not a series of them, but don’t let the facts get in the way of a good argument.
> 
> Perhaps he actually mixes with people who are not all of the same opinion as him. Some people do.


Not quite sure why you are concerned but what facts have I got wrong?

The fella clearly thinks people who don't wear masks are fools and has referred to them as insects.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> I'm not anti vax at all, I had both jabs a while ago, what I am is anti being called a fool and being referred to as an insect because I no longer want to wear a mask.
> 
> So I can only comment on this forum if I agree with what you say?



I never said don’t comment.

With masks there is credible science that says they’re helpful and it’s still recommended.

People think I’m a fool for wearing one that’s their opinion, and I’m welcome to my own, I’m not the one being vocal in a public place about it and challenging others though.

As for the insect comment, I said people could learn from hive insects, I didn’t say they were one, so nice cherry picking there.


----------



## Milzy (1 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I never said don’t comment.
> 
> With masks there is credible science that says they’re helpful and it’s still recommended.
> 
> ...


Some people believe in God & others don’t it’s the same for masks. Why can’t people be as tolerant to mask beliefs as they are to religious beliefs?


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> Some people believe in God & others don’t it’s the same for masks. Why can’t people be as tolerant to mask beliefs as they are to religious beliefs?



I did say I personally don’t care, it’s people’s opinion but like I said I have been called a fool and I’m allowed my opinion doesn’t mean I don’t tolerate others choices.

I just happen to have had naff experiences with anti maskers so it’s not like I’m going to be warm at fuzzy towards them, you don’t see me getting in someone’s face saying hey I’m going to force this mask over your face.


----------



## Punkawallah (1 Aug 2021)

You crack on, sunshine. It's your life, so you decide.


----------



## purpan (1 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> Some people believe in God & others don’t it’s the same for masks. Why can’t people be as tolerant to mask beliefs as they are to religious beliefs?


I’d say the key difference is that it doesn’t affect other people (usually) if someone chooses to believe in a god. If someone chooses to not wear a mask, however, and still mixes with other people, the majority of scientists and doctors would say that person is potentially putting other people at risk. It’s not about the mask non-wearer, but about those in their proximity, a proximity that may include very vulnerable people.


----------



## Rusty Nails (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> Not quite sure why you are concerned but what facts have I got wrong?
> 
> The fella clearly thinks people who don't wear masks are fools and has referred to them as insects.



I am not that concerned, just amused. The facts that I was referring to are that it was one person who approached him in the supermarket, not _people, _but hyperbole is clearly much more attractive to your argument.

For the record I think that people who don't wear masks are not so much fools as rather selfish, but that is just an opinion and may or may not be proved right in the long term. They are not the same as anti-vaxxers who quite definitely are fools _and_ selfish.


----------



## KnittyNorah (1 Aug 2021)

shep said:


> When, in your opinion, would you be happy for people to stop wearing them?



When there's some form of reasonably accessible, affordable and effective treatment/prevention - such as is offered by Tamiflu against influenzas A and B - available for the clinically highly vulnerable who are at extreme risk from C-19 and/or those who are unable to receive, or who fail to mount an immune response to, C-19 vaccination.

Until that pharmaceutical is available, a person who does not wear a mask when in close proximity indoors with others, especially those who are strangers, may well be acting, in effect, as a 21stC version of Typhoid Mary. Of course they may well _not _be, but unfortunately we have no way of foretelling, or of being instantly informed of, our change in infectious status in real time. 

An infectious person who wears a mask correctly, however, will reduce - not eliminate - the amount of virus which enters the environment on each exhalation, and the distance it is able to travel. These two factors serve to reduce the number of people infected by the mask wearer if that person becomes infectious through the course of an outing, a day at work or a bus journey, and is the responsible, courteous and socially-aware thing to do.


----------



## Ajax Bay (1 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Not wearing a mask is - IMO - in and of itself discourteous ( ...) when the unmasked are in the close proximity of those who are strangers, as it is impossible to know whether or not an unmasked person might be exhaling highly infectious doses of virus-laden air in the shared environment.


This is a 'chances' thing though, @Norah. At present in UK the prevalence means mask wearing in close indoors locations and where eg shops ask is a sensible and reasonable behaviour: for the benefit of others. But once prevalence is lower there must be a point where it tips and it's a personal choice issue, and non-wearing should not attract opprobium.


Pale Rider said:


> 'Doctors', or at least a loose interpretation of the term, were tried at Nuremburg and subsequently, so it's hardly hateful to remake that observation.


'Fraid I disagree, Paley. Those Nazi doctors were tried (and some convicted) because on evidence their actions contributed to inhuman deaths, or their inaction failed to prevent deaths which reasonably it was their duty to prevent. There is no equivalence to current medical behaviours: comparison is hateful.
Medically trained people can be anti-vaxxers if they so decide: but they are not directly causing harm to other individuals.

@shep said: "When, in your opinion, would you be happy for people to stop wearing them?"


KnittyNorah said:


> When there's some form of reasonably accessible, affordable and effective treatment/prevention . . . available for the clinically highly vulnerable who are at extreme risk from C-19 and/or those who are unable to receive, or who fail to mount an immune response to, C-19 vaccination.
> Until that pharmaceutical is available, a person who does not wear a mask when in close proximity indoors with others, especially those who are strangers, may well be acting, in effect, as a 21stC version of Typhoid Mary. Of course they may well _not _be, but unfortunately we have no way of foretelling, or of being instantly informed of, our change in infectious status in real time.


I suggest that your conditions will never be met. So either you will become unhappy for life, or you'll recognise that life for some people (such as those in your examples) have greater risks and will need to moderate their behaviours accordingly, to mitigate the risk to their health, and stay away from risky situations, just as cyclists mostly avoid dual carriageways. Soon, in UK, prevalence will be down at lower levels and more than three quarters will be fully vaccinated.


----------



## SteveF (1 Aug 2021)

Popped into the Leigh-on-Sea Brewery yesterday, I thought they had their messaging pretty much spot on...


----------



## fossyant (5 Aug 2021)

I've seen a few news articles of folk fit and healthy, not jabbed for various reasons, dying from it. One today, so called educated person, posted video of him with the virus, not bad at all, it's just flu, then died just over a week later - wife also seriously ill. She's now going to get the jab. Another guy, 40, fit, climber/walker, not jabbed, dead. It's a lottery whether you will be fine or not. The issue lies in how the body handles the virus and it's well known it messes up the autoimmune system, which in turn goes into overdrive and destroys your key organs.


----------



## vickster (5 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> I've seen a few news articles of folk fit and healthy, not jabbed for various reasons, dying from it. One today, so called educated person, posted video of him with the virus, not bad at all, it's just flu, then died just over a week later - wife also seriously ill. She's now going to get the jab. Another guy, 40, fit, climber/walker, not jabbed, dead. It's a lottery whether you will be fine or not. The issue lies in how the body handles the virus and it's well known it messes up the autoimmune system, which in turn goes into overdrive and destroys your key organs.


Plenty of stories like this appearing
https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...sister-issues-misinformation-warning-12373389


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> I've seen a few news articles of folk fit and healthy, not jabbed for various reasons, dying from it. One today, so called educated person, posted video of him with the virus, not bad at all, it's just flu, then died just over a week later - wife also seriously ill. She's now going to get the jab. Another guy, 40, fit, climber/walker, not jabbed, dead. It's a lottery whether you will be fine or not. The issue lies in how the body handles the virus and it's well known it messes up the autoimmune system, which in turn goes into overdrive and destroys your key organs.



There was on recent story with an Eastern European YouTube fitness guy, he was very anti vaccine etc, it tore him to pieces as well guy was young and obviously fit and healthy no underlying health issues. 

it’s totally indiscriminate.

Also the misinformation sources are churning out more tripe at the moment, they’re back on the virus hasn’t been isolated etc etc now.

One of the main tripe channel from the USA the one that previously claimed the vaccine is 99.9% Graphene is also saying almost all hospital admissions and deaths are vaccinated.

People fall for it as they make the studio look real, and they get people with dubious qualifications to make the claims.


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Aug 2021)

I have a friend - much younger than me, early 40s - who I encouraged, several years ago, to 'live her dream'. She was a schoolteacher in a nice suburban school who loved her cycling, rock-climbing, marathon running etc etc to distraction and had always dreamed of working as an outdoor activities instructor.
So off she went, got her qualifications and got a job. Sold her nice suburban house and bought a little old cottage in very Welsh Wales and just LOVED her new life, learning Welsh and being accepted.

Fast forward to April 2020 and she caught Covid while furloughed. She was ill, but not so ill as to be admitted to hospital, and after a few weeks - although feeling 'hit by a hammer' by the virus - thought she'd start to 'pick up'. Just before Christmas, she emailed me to say that over six months post-covid, she could now manage to walk half a mile to the village shop with only one stop to sit and rest. 

Make of that anecdote what you will. No doubt anti-vaxxers will claim - oh I don't know what! But my pal never had the opportunity to get a vaccine before she caught C-19 - and now look what she'd probably have missed if she _had_ had the vaccine ...


----------



## Mugshot (5 Aug 2021)

Can i just say, in answer to the thread title, they're blooming everywhere!!
And I blame @Fab Foodie because he started the thread


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> One of the main tripe channel from the USA the one that previously claimed the vaccine is 99.9% Graphene is also saying almost all hospital admissions and deaths are vaccinated.



There's a grain of truth in that bizarre claim. 
As no-one has ever claimed that any vaccine - not the oldest, smallpox, nor the newest, C-19 - gives 100% of the people 100% protection 100% of the time, it's simple arithmetic that the higher the % of the population who have been vaccinated, the higher the % of patients in hospital who will have been vaccinated. 
In an imaginary scenario, if 100% of people were vaccinated, all of the people in hospital with C-19 and dying of it, would have been vaccinated - and those tripemongers would _still_ try to twist logic like a snake twists itself round its prey.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Aug 2021)

Mugshot said:


> Can i just say, in answer to the thread title, they're blooming everywhere!!
> And I blame @Fab Foodie because he started the thread



I have a few in the family, they even went so far as to uninvite vaccinated family members from a wedding.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> There's a grain of truth in that bizarre claim.
> As no-one has ever claimed that any vaccine - not the oldest, smallpox, nor the newest, C-19 - gives 100% of the people 100% protection 100% of the time, it's simple arithmetic that the higher the % of the population who have been vaccinated, the higher the % of patients in hospital who will have been vaccinated.
> In an imaginary scenario, if 100% of people were vaccinated, all of the people in hospital with C-19 and dying of it, would have been vaccinated - and those tripemongers would _still_ try to twist logic like a snake twists itself round its prey.



Yes I suppose and also age and health status is never mentioned.

The main thing with anti vax is they seem to think, vaccines should or do offer 100% immunity, the amount of times I have seen “This is the first vaccine in history that doesn’t protect you” is a joke.


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> they even went so far as to uninvite vaccinated family members from a wedding.


That's just plain nasty and hurtful - what were they scared of, being magnetised or 'catching' stray DNA? 
I'm not sure I'd've wanted to go though; being around all those unvaxxed petri dishes would seem like a risky venture.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That's just plain nasty and hurtful - what were they scared of, being magnetised or 'catching' stray DNA?
> I'm not sure I'd've wanted to go though; being around all those unvaxxed petri dishes would seem like a risky venture.



Shedding was the reason they gave.

I did say most vaccines that shed its in the persons waste is my understanding haha also the Covid vaccines or especially MRNA type ones I believe the chances of shedding is low to none.

I was going to drive my Mum but not attend as I wasn’t invited anyway and Mum can’t drive, I was told not to come anywhere near them though as I made them angry on a Zoom call, they subscribe to many theories and the one being discussed was the Queens a hologram haha I blurted out least we know where Rimmers hardlight drive went.

It didn’t go down well haha


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Shedding was the reason they gave.
> ...
> the Queens a hologram



WHAT?
That's just plain bizarre.

It would be comical were it not so dangerously ignorant; you have my sympathy. Your family members clearly need help of some sort.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> WHAT?
> That's just plain bizarre.
> 
> It would be comical were it not so dangerously ignorant; you have my sympathy. Your family members clearly need help of some sort.



We fell out quite spectacularly, Mainly due to their views on healthcare workers which I just can’t abide especially as my wife’s a nurse.

I would imagine it’s quite common, I know an ex work colleague who has fallen down the rabbit hole and rubbed friends and family the wrong way.


----------



## Profpointy (5 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I have a few in the family, they even went so far as to uninvite vaccinated family members from a wedding.



To be fair that was probably a great relief


----------



## Fab Foodie (6 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Shedding was the reason they gave.
> 
> I did say most vaccines that shed its in the persons waste is my understanding haha also the Covid vaccines or especially MRNA type ones I believe the chances of shedding is low to none.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a family you need to get out of!


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That's just plain nasty and hurtful - what were they scared of, being magnetised or 'catching' stray DNA?
> I'm not sure I'd've wanted to go though; being around all those unvaxxed petri dishes would seem like a risky venture.



Better 5g reception I reccon and the ability to record everything that goes on. I didn't get the upgrade, still stuck on 4g with AZ.


----------



## C R (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Better 5g reception I reccon and the ability to record everything that goes on. I didn't get the upgrade, still stuck on 4g with AZ.


Same here.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> I didn't get the upgrade, still stuck on 4g with AZ.


Same here - but I'm waiting eagerly for the added functionality of a Pfizer booster in a couple of months; if I ask for the jab in my bum instead of my arm, I won't even need to consider getting an electric conversion for my bike - it'll connect seamlessly and silently every time I sit on the saddle!


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

We've a 'Department' at work, full of very educated people, that have a high proportion of unvaccinated. Next to them, the 'other' Department, again full of highly educated people (same floor, no physical barriers between the two Departments) the will be fully vaccinated. Flipping madness.

Reason, one is full of Nursing Lecturing staff, the other Psychologists. Apparently Psychologists are better placed to say if vaccination is safe or not. Oh and our Physio Department will be fully vaxxed to. 

For me, the biggest issue is avoiding long covid - it must be devastating for someone previously active. Why aren't anti-vaxxers ignoring all those hundreds of thousands in the UK with long covid - it's not a conspiracy for them! 

I just don't get the stupidity. Lad on TV yesterday, really ill, ventilated, even whilst still in hospital he was saying he's not made his mind up, has it been tested properly. Erm 100m vaccinations to date just in the UK is 'tested'. He looked fit and healthy but was floored by Covid.

It's a true gamble waiting to see when you'll catch it. It is not flu.


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

C R said:


> Same here.



I've still got my £40 phone bill every month. I was expecting free ! Do you think AZ saved a few bob with omitting the 5g chips - it is the cheapest vaccine


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> I've still got my £40 phone bill every month. I was expecting free ! Do you think AZ saved a few bob with omitting the 5g chips - it is the cheapest vaccine



This is the sort of madness the anti-vaxxers are quoting.


----------



## winjim (6 Aug 2021)

My twitter feed is filling up with stories of sick and dead anti-vaxxers. Some repentant and urging others to take the vaccine, some of them steadfast.


View: https://twitter.com/brikeilarcnn/status/1423260524637298689?s=19



View: https://twitter.com/fascinatorfun/status/1423417815630028801?s=19


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> I've still got my £40 phone bill every month. I was expecting free ! Do you think AZ saved a few bob with omitting the 5g chips - it is the cheapest vaccine



Don't worry - with the planned boosters, if you're over 50 you'll be getting the super-charger upgrade soon enough and then you'll leave all the 'mere' 5G folks in the dust with your special powers, just as I plan to. Think about it in advance though - it's a little-known fact that _where_ in your body you get the jab will affect the powers you acquire ... believe me because I KNOW about such things - Norah Knitty, M.Sc.(D), MSPCP(FD)*


*Master of Scientific Drivel, Member of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants(Foliage Division).


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

Madness. Guy in my feed from North Wales press, 42, Muscles from Brussels type, very active, climber etc etc, tragically died from it. Just hadn't 'got round to it'.

Very sad.

To be honest, I've not met one anti vaxxer, only a mate who 'hadn't bothered' but then nearly died recently - I suspect he's still ill as he hasn't been delivering post to my house. They are few and far between but very though, hence why it appears there are many.

The slow uptake of youngsters is possibly down to personal risk of being ill, and the biggest, the rubbish spouted on social media. There is also the snowflake effect.

The blood clot risk is actually 'less' than occurs naturally - just that I'd assume it triggers one earlier than you would likely have had one. Many of the youngsters may not have had other vaccinations. I've had the lot over the years. Wonder if any have had tetanus injections, I'd say that's as equally important if you are active, even just gardening. I'm probably due a booster TBH.

So sad that we are seeing people like this now die from it. It's there folks, it's not going away.


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Don't worry - with the planned boosters, if you're over 50 you'll be getting the super-charger upgrade soon enough and then you'll leave all the 'mere' 5G folks in the dust with your special powers, just as I plan to. Think about it in advance though - it's a little-known fact that _where_ in your body you get the jab will affect the powers you acquire ... believe me because I KNOW about such things - Norah Knitty, M.Sc.(D), MSPCP(FD)*
> 
> 
> *Master of Scientific Drivel, Member of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Plants(Foliage Division).



Is it a bit like the 'green light' serum they talk about in 'Black Lightning' series on telly. I'm in - new meta human. So long as Skolly doesn't go for the upgrade, I might be able to keep up with him. If he get's it, no chance.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Is it a bit like the 'green light' serum they talk about in 'Black Lightning' series on telly.


Ummm I don't know, not got a telly and not had one for many years ... but yes there is definitely a connection with Green Light and it will give those of use who are 4G/AZ-ers absolutely incredible superpowers. Where that power will reside, what form it will take and its duration is to a large extent currently unknown, except that it will depend on where you consent to have the jab and the use you decide make of it. 
This has already been _proven_ by research that I have done _myself _on the internet.
So I've already decided mine will be in connection with my bike so I'll have it in my bum to distribute its effects throughout the bike. It might mean it will magnetise me to the bikes saddle firmly no matter the skid or swerve, or the tyres to the tarmac in any wet or icy conditions. It might give my legs super-pedalling strength or it might spread through the whole bike to give the entire thing automatic electric powers ... until I have it done and I activate it in my chosen way I won't know for sure its final effects but I know it will be simply WONDERFUL! Subscribe for only £999/month to find out more and get PERSONAL assistance and suggestions from ME!


----------



## fossyant (6 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Ummm I don't know, not got a telly and not had one for many years ... but yes there is definitely a connection with Green Light and it will give those of use who are 4G/AZ-ers absolutely incredible superpowers. Where that power will reside, what form it will take and its duration is to a large extent currently unknown, except that it will depend on where you consent to have the jab and the use you decide make of it.
> This has already been _proven_ by research that I have done _myself _on the internet.
> So I've already decided mine will be in connection with my bike so I'll have it in my bum to distribute its effects throughout the bike. It might mean it will magnetise me to the bikes saddle firmly no matter the skid or swerve, or the tyres to the tarmac in any wet or icy conditions. It might give my legs super-pedalling strength or it might spread through the whole bike to give the entire thing automatic electric powers ... until I have it done and I activate it in my chosen way I won't know for sure its final effects but I know it will be simply WONDERFUL! Subscribe for only £999/month to find out more and get PERSONAL assistance and suggestions from ME!



What about those poor buggers that ride plastic and alloy bikes. Fortunately 3 of the 4 I have can be magnetised with my bum, so I'll be OK.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> What about those poor buggers that ride plastic and alloy bikes.



That's why they need the information which is exclusive to my website - subscribe for only £99/month or £999 for a full year!
Being unable to magnetise one's bike (or horse, or in-line skates, or other non-magnetisable form of travel, be it for leisure or business/work) is not a problem at all once you learn the secrets which I have unearthed by long years of research, recently validated by certain unique items found in the Ancient Roman warehouse of Menorca, hidden for millennia behind cursed doors. 

However, remember that you MUST have had BOTH AZ (or other viral vector) vaccines in order to unleash the full powers of the Pfizer/Moderna or similar 'booster'. This truly is a booster just as journeys to the ISS use boosters. GET YOUR AZ NOW in preparation for this super-booster!


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> We've a 'Department' at work, full of very educated people, that have a high proportion of unvaccinated. Next to them, the 'other' Department, again full of highly educated people (same floor, no physical barriers between the two Departments) the will be fully vaccinated. Flipping madness.
> 
> Reason, one is full of Nursing Lecturing staff, the other Psychologists. Apparently Psychologists are better placed to say if vaccination is safe or not. Oh and our Physio Department will be fully vaxxed to.
> 
> ...



My wife and sister have a friend with long Covid, it’s not something to take light heartedly, young active and now she has to be wheel chaired to the car and has zero stamina.

I have heard the usual conspiracy bs regarding long Covid and it’s psychological etc it’s the usual shoehorning things to fit a narrative.


----------



## AuroraSaab (6 Aug 2021)

It's been a few months since my jab and I'm still non the wiser about what Bill Gates wants me to do.

The Mail especially seems to be picking up all the stories about anti-vaxers getting ill or passing away. I'm not a Mail fan in general but they are doing a public service in publicising this stuff as there is still this myth that covid is only deadly for the elderly and those with underlying conditions.

Heartbreaking stuff to read but hopefully will push the reticent folk into reconsidering having the jab.


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Aug 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> Heartbreaking stuff to read but hopefully will push the reticent folk into reconsidering having the jab.



I read something somewhere - either in a medical journal, or else in 'Nature' - a few months ago, about effective ways of encouraging/persuading the 'unwilling' (of various sorts) to be vaccinated when the time came for them. The different 'reasons' (in an individual's mind) for not being vaccinated has a huge bearing on what method of persuasion/encouragement actually works, with some methods appearing to affirm and consolidate their opposition.

The stuff the DM is pushing will work on some people - probably quite well on a significant percentage of those who have the simplistic excuse of 'oh I'm too busy, it's not convenient _and anyway _it won't affect me badly, it only affects the unfit/immigrants/'the poor'/people who don't look like me/someone else and I'm not one of _them' - _until they see someone who looks and sounds _exactly _like them right there in front of them, dead, in their favourite newspaper.

However, it will need, and has needed many more, different, and carefully-thought-out, perspectives, persuasion and publicity to get those with more ... what's the word, I don't want to be insulting to anyone .. _convoluted _trains of thought and reasoning. Certainly leadership from 'people like them' has persuaded many BAME folk to go ahead with vaccination - and it doesn't necessarily need nationally high profile people, in fact I think it probably comes better from local ones who are actually _known_ by the people who might be concerned. Trust, feet on the ground and all that.

There appears to be a great deal of assistance available (in at least some areas) for those who are severely needle-phobic - but of course it has to be asked for, which might itself be a problem - and the 'walk-in' centres conveniently positioned near areas of high foot traffic will pick up a large number of people who are thinking 'I'll organise it tomorrow/at the weekend/when I'm not running late'.

An excellent 'think outside the box' example which I love is the thinking of the teens who took over the anti-vaxx hashtag Leave Our Kids Alone:


> A hashtag used by anti-vaxxers on social media to protest against the inclusion of 16 & 17 yos in the vaccine rollout scheme has been taken over by teenagers who say they cannot wait to get a Covid-19 jab ... “Maybe the anti-vaxxers in #LeaveOurKidsAlone should listen to their own advice and leave us alone?? i’ve been waiting for this vaccine to help protect my high risk parents for ages and i’m excited to get it over and done with,” wrote one user.


 (from msn news here)
ETA actually from inews.
Then we're left with the low-numbers but high-visibility, high-publicity conspiracy theorists with their thousands of noisy followers. I suppose these followers vary from the merely-doubtful and worried who are likely to be dissuaded at least a little by common-sense and logical, kindly - not disparaging - discourse with loved ones, to those who've fully bought into the magnetic paedophile lizardmen theory. It strikes me that the latter are more like fully-involved cult members than anything else ... so where do we go from here?

Again, the takeover of the Leave Our Kids Alone hashtag by teens themselves seems to point, if not THE way, at least A way to mitigate some of the harm. Perhaps the best thing we can do is 'manage the damage' ...



-


----------



## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I read something somewhere - either in a medical journal, or else in 'Nature' - a few months ago, about effective ways of encouraging/persuading the 'unwilling' (of various sorts) to be vaccinated when the time came for them. The different 'reasons' (in an individual's mind) for not being vaccinated has a huge bearing on what method of persuasion/encouragement actually works, with some methods appearing to affirm and consolidate their opposition.
> 
> The stuff the DM is pushing will work on some people - probably quite well on a significant percentage of those who have the simplistic excuse of 'oh I'm too busy, it's not convenient _and anyway _it won't affect me badly, it only affects the unfit/immigrants/'the poor'/people who don't look like me/someone else and I'm not one of _them' - _until they see someone who looks and sounds _exactly _like them right there in front of them, dead, in their favourite newspaper.
> 
> ...


You trust Bill Gates!


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> You trust Bill Gates!


See my edit - it was actually in the i. And yes, I trust BG a damned sight more than I'd ever trust KS, DI or PC!


----------



## CXRAndy (7 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> My wife and sister have a friend with long Covid, it’s not something to take light heartedly, young active and now she has to be wheel chaired to the car and has zero stamina.
> 
> I have heard the usual conspiracy bs regarding long Covid and it’s psychological etc it’s the usual shoehorning things to fit a narrative.



I don't know whether my Covid turned into long C, but I had tiredness, breathlessness for 6-8 weeks. I was still positive with a PCR test 6 weeks after initial infection. Thankfully I've got over it now and back to riding (albeit from low level)


----------



## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> See my edit - it was actually in the i. And yes, I trust BG a damned sight more than I'd ever trust KS, DI or PC!


He's taking control already!
Resist, you must...


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Aug 2021)

Looking back down this thread I am surprised about the people saying they are being hassled about wearing a mask.
Mask wearing around here has dropped quite a lot - as expected - but it does depend on the time and demographics in the shop at the time

Tesco has varied from 50:50 to 70:30 - the first number being wearers - most people over about 40 seem to be wearing a mask - but no where near all

But at no point have I come across anyone saying or doing anything to anyone who either wears - or doesn;t.

Maybe people are just more polite around here

not the way the local big estates are described - but whatever!!


----------



## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Looking back down this thread I am surprised about the people saying they are being hassled about wearing a mask.
> Mask wearing around here has dropped quite a lot - as expected - but it does depend on the time and demographics in the shop at the time
> 
> Tesco has varied from 50:50 to 70:30 - the first number being wearers - most people over about 40 seem to be wearing a mask - but no where near all
> ...


I'm toying with the idea of going in with a full biohazard suit. The full facemask and filtered air supply got me a wide berth last year.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Tesco But at no point have I come across anyone saying or doing anything to anyone who either wears - or doesn;t.
> 
> Maybe people are just more polite around here
> 
> not the way the local big estates are described - but whatever!!



For me it was a combination of a prominent anti vaxer living in the area and having a strong local following who are very vocal and some are known thugs anyway, just a case of poor timing and bad luck on my part. 



CXRAndy said:


> I don't know whether my Covid turned into long C, but I had tiredness, breathlessness for 6-8 weeks. I was still positive with a PCR test 6 weeks after initial infection. Thankfully I've got over it now and back to riding (albeit from low level)



Your doing well to be active it’s really knocking some people for 6.

also the 9/11 conspiracy nonsense will start ramping up soon as it’s the 20yr anniversary soon.


----------



## AuroraSaab (7 Aug 2021)

I spent yesterday evening in a pub. First time since the restrictions eased. There were only a handful of us wearing masks when we moved around the place. Younger people (under 30's) seem to be the ones who gave up on them immediately. I haven't had any aggro, but you get the odd funny look.

On the bright side, 4 fabric masks were 99p in Costco last week and shops are practically giving away the sanitiser. Bought some spares for the glove box.


----------



## Rusty Nails (7 Aug 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> I spent yesterday evening in a pub. First time since the restrictions eased. There were only a handful of us wearing masks when we moved around the place. Younger people (under 30's) seem to be the ones who gave up on them immediately. I haven't had any aggro, but you get the odd funny look.
> 
> On the bright side, 4 fabric masks were 99p in Costco last week and shops are practically giving away the sanitiser. Bought some spares for the glove box.



I've been around long enough not to get bothered by funny looks. I'll continue wearing them in crowded situations for a while yet. No great hassle to me.


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## Johnno260 (7 Aug 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> I've been around long enough not to get bothered by funny looks. I'll continue wearing them in crowded situations for a while yet. No great hassle to me.



My mothers the same she said she is fine wearing them still and will 100% wear one during flu season.

Myself and the wife still wear one in crowded indoor places it’s no hassle it it doesn’t hurt.

My work colleagues in Singapore find all the anti mask stuff highly amusing.


----------



## Rusty Nails (7 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> My mothers the same she said she is fine wearing them still and will 100% wear one during flu season.
> 
> Myself and the wife still wear one in crowded indoor places it’s no hassle it it doesn’t hurt.
> 
> My work colleagues in Singapore find all the anti mask stuff highly amusing.



All that strange mask-wearing is fine for foreigners from exotic parts, but we are British and made of sterner stuff.


----------



## slowmotion (7 Aug 2021)

SNCF takes a robust approach to stroppy passengers......

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...r-face-mask-refuses-coronavirus-a9675641.html

_Chapeau!_


----------



## Unkraut (7 Aug 2021)

slowmotion said:


> _Chapeau!_


Chapeau is the French for castle. 

You're welcome.


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Aug 2021)

slowmotion said:


> SNCF takes a robust approach to stroppy passengers......


Excellent. An idiot who appears to either not care about or not understand the risk that a non-masker poses to _everyone else who shares their air _doesn't deserve to be allowed to travel in a civilised fashion aboard a train.


----------



## Milzy (7 Aug 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I don't know whether my Covid turned into long C, but I had tiredness, breathlessness for 6-8 weeks. I was still positive with a PCR test 6 weeks after initial infection. Thankfully I've got over it now and back to riding (albeit from low level)


I’m sorry you had it so harsh. You’re most unlucky to suffer for such a long time. At least you’re still alive like 99.9% of victims.


----------



## Ajax Bay (7 Aug 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I was still positive with a PCR test 6 weeks after initial infection.


Andy - this may offer you an insight:
Are you infectious if you have a positive PCR test result for COVID-19?


----------



## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

Unkraut said:


> Chapeau is the French for castle.
> 
> You're welcome.


Not the mass of grape solids that floats on the surface during the fermentation of wine.


----------



## slowmotion (7 Aug 2021)

Unkraut said:


> Chapeau is the French for castle.
> 
> You're welcome.


Exactly which grade did you get in O level French, mon ami ????


----------



## Unkraut (7 Aug 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Exactly which grade did you get in O level French, mon ami ????


Now this information is no longer embargoed under the 30 year rule, I am pleased to reveal I got an E pass overall, with F for the spoken part. I had to read something out with 50 in it, and *I didn't know what the French for fifty was. 

*I still don't.


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Aug 2021)

In the US, yet another sad case of an anti-vaxxer who changed his mind too late - but his family were so determined that he should not have died in vain that they offered testing and vaccinations to attendees _at his funeral_ and during the wake, strongly supported by the church. The Independent.


----------



## winjim (9 Aug 2021)

Went for a walk with the kids round Derwent reservoir yesterday. Above the dam there's a single house tucked away in the trees. I don't know if it has or had any connection to the building or operation of the dam. Anyway, what sort of person might live in a house like that? Secluded, tucked away, removed from society with no surrounding community or contact with the outside world?

Someone with a noticeboard and access to a printer, that's who:


Spoiler: CW: conspiracy theory, miscarriage












Yep, fully down the conspiracy theory whackjob rabbit hole. But... maybe they're right, maybe you don't need a vaccine if you live in a house in the woods in the middle of bloody nowhere* and never go out.

_You've already isolated yourself you plum!_

Still, it gave us an opportunity to talk to the 6yo about scientific skepticism and cynicism and not believing every wacky thing you read on the internet. TBH I think she was more interested in picking the wild raspberries.


*I may be projecting. It's isolated but a very popular place for walkers and cyclists. Hence the noticeboard I guess.


----------



## Craig the cyclist (9 Aug 2021)

On Saturday evening I was in Sainsburys, walking down the 'World Foods' aisle I was confronted by a drunk bloke, with no mask, but with a £20 note. 

He came up to me and started showing me the note and explaining how the symbols etc meant that the virus was known and that the secret sign of the person wearing a mask when you folded the note in a certain way etc etc. A full on drunk explanation of the way that people who had £20 notes were warned about the virus through the notes


----------



## Fab Foodie (9 Aug 2021)

Unkraut said:


> Now this information is no longer embargoed under the 30 year rule, I am pleased to reveal I got an E pass overall, with F for the spoken part. I had to read something out with 50 in it, and *I didn't know what the French for fifty was.
> 
> *I still don't.


Sankontay... HTH.


----------



## fossyant (9 Aug 2021)

Craig the cyclist said:


> On Saturday evening I was in Sainsburys, walking down the 'World Foods' aisle I was confronted by a drunk bloke, with no mask, but with a £20 note.
> 
> He came up to me and started showing me the note and explaining how the symbols etc meant that the virus was known and that the secret sign of the person wearing a mask when you folded the note in a certain way etc etc. A full on drunk explanation of the way that people who had £20 notes were warned about the virus through the notes



Where do you live - you seem to attract them - I shall avoid ! You've got more patience than I would have.


----------



## Fab Foodie (9 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> In the US, yet another sad case of an anti-vaxxer who changed his mind too late - but his family were so determined that he should not have died in vain that they offered testing and vaccinations to attendees _at his funeral_ and during the wake, strongly supported by the church. The Independent.


Natural selection at work.... 
Apologies for the empathy bypass, but I have little sadness for Anti-Vaxxers who die as a result of their stupidity. Their actions have led DIRECTLY to the deaths of many others and sadly will continue to do so. 
There are conspiracy theories and rank stupidity, alternative opinions but not alternative facts.


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> Went for a walk with the kids round Derwent reservoir yesterday. Above the dam there's a single house tucked away in the trees. I don't know if it has or had any connection to the building or operation of the dam. Anyway, what sort of person might live in a house like that? Secluded, tucked away, removed from society with no surrounding community or contact with the outside world?
> 
> Someone with a noticeboard and access to a printer, that's who:
> 
> ...



Hmmm if it's that isolated I might be tempted to apply some mild vandalism or light graffiti to said noticeboard ... I peeled off a few stickers from noticeboards in the local park when I was out on my bike the other day, who needs to read about how 5G will get you or mask-wearers are conniving with the lizardmen, if they're interested in the information board about the reproduction of Black Poplars or where the Victorian bandstand used to be and the famous conductors who had been there?


----------



## Edwardoka (9 Aug 2021)

Apparently they are currently protesting and trying to storm BBC Television Centre in London despite it having been turned into luxury flats years ago.

I guess they "did their research"


----------



## winjim (9 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Hmmm if it's that isolated I might be tempted to apply some mild vandalism or light graffiti to said noticeboard ... I peeled off a few stickers from noticeboards in the local park when I was out on my bike the other day, who needs to read about how 5G will get you or mask-wearers are conniving with the lizardmen, if they're interested in the information board about the reproduction of Black Poplars or where the Victorian bandstand used to be and the famous conductors who had been there?


If it was in a public area or just flyposted you might have a point but it's actually on their property. And to be perfectly frank, I'm not sure I want to mess with someone who takes this sort of stuff seriously enough to have a glass fronted noticeboard next to their front gate.


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> If it was in a public area or just flyposted you might have a point but it's actually on their property. And to be perfectly frank, I'm not sure I want to mess with someone who takes this sort of stuff seriously enough to have a glass fronted noticeboard next to their front gate.


Oh, now you describe it like that, I agree with you!


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Aug 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Natural selection at work....
> Apologies for the empathy bypass, but I have little sadness for Anti-Vaxxers who die as a result of their stupidity. Their actions have led DIRECTLY to the deaths of many others and sadly will continue to do so.
> There are conspiracy theories and rank stupidity, alternative opinions but not alternative facts.



same I take a dim view of people purposely posting false information, some conspiracy’s can be laughed off flat earth as an example.

my relatives post false information and hate against NHS staff so they get the full wrath treatment I don’t care if they get offended as they don’t care.


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Aug 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Natural selection at work....
> Apologies for the empathy bypass, but I have little sadness for Anti-Vaxxers who die as a result of their stupidity. Their actions have led DIRECTLY to the deaths of many others and sadly will continue to do so.
> There are conspiracy theories and rank stupidity, alternative opinions but not alternative facts.


I agree; my sympathy lay entirely with the family who had apparently tried - and failed - to persuade him, and I greatly admired their decision to make his wake and funeral focussed on vaccination - a memorial to someone they doubtless loved very much, who might so very easily been saved. Perhaps by his family's actions, a number of people who might not otherwise have been vaccinated, now have been.


----------



## Rusty Nails (9 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> If it was in a public area or just flyposted you might have a point but it's actually on their property. And to be perfectly frank, *I'm not sure I want to mess with someone who takes this sort of stuff seriously *enough to have a glass fronted noticeboard next to their front gate.


Did you hear banjo playing coming from inside the house?


----------



## winjim (9 Aug 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> Did you hear banjo playing coming from inside the house?


You're thinking of the next valley across.

https://www.strava.com/segments/7246519


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## Johnno260 (12 Aug 2021)

I’m not sure how to approach this golden nugget of information that landed in my feed.


“virology is a lie. Germs are not the cause of disease. This lie has cost us everything. But we should forgive them because surgery?
Wow”


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Germs are not the cause of disease.



W-e-e-e-l-l-l-l .. 'germs' - by which I presume is meant bacteria and viruses, maybe fungus as well - are not *THE* cause of disease overall or universally, but they are certainly *A* cause of many diseases, and an important one at that ...

That's the thing with these weirdos - they grab one thing which has a certain, limited, degree of truth about it, and then apply it to everything else. 

To what _do_ they ascribe the cause of infectious diseases in general, if not 'germs'? The usual 5G perhaps? Or a collaboration between the royal family, Bill Gates and other members of the lizard illuminati?


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Aug 2021)

Well the way a mortician explained it to me, you don’t die of Covid, you don’t technically die from any pathogens but you die from the damage they cause so in the case of Covid its respiratory or organ failure, and due to how death certificates are written organ failure will be the primary with Covid further down.

It’s semantics that Covid deniers used early on as they realised this was something that could be exploited.

The idiot who wrote that, I asked him for a Citation, so he referenced a Dr Thomas Cowan, this guy was an MD who said the heart doesn’t pump blood, I gave him the chance to change his source for the viral claim but he insisted so I linked the video of his source saying that about the heart.

He then used the death certificate issue so I linked the story from the mortician, and said it was semantics and he was using a loophole in the death certificate system. 

Now I don’t agree with censorship but I do firmly agree that if you make a claim or use a source that reputable then I’m allowed to call them out.


----------



## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Well the way a mortician explained it to me, you don’t die of Covid, you don’t technically die from any pathogens but you die from the damage they cause so in the case of Covid its respiratory or organ failure, and due to how death certificates are written organ failure will be the primary with Covid further down.
> 
> It’s semantics that Covid deniers used early on as they realised this was something that could be exploited.
> 
> ...


This "doctor"?
https://calmatters.org/health/2021/02/conspiracy-theory-doctor-surrenders-medical-license/


----------



## Edwardoka (12 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> W-e-e-e-l-l-l-l .. 'germs' - by which I presume is meant bacteria and viruses, maybe fungus as well - are not *THE* cause of disease overall or universally, but they are certainly *A* cause of many diseases, and an important one at that ...
> 
> That's the thing with these weirdos - they grab one thing which has a certain, limited, degree of truth about it, and then apply it to everything else.
> 
> To what _do_ they ascribe the cause of infectious diseases in general, if not 'germs'? The usual 5G perhaps? Or a collaboration between the royal family, Bill Gates and other members of the lizard illuminati?


Can you edit your post to make it clear that you're quoting a quote, and not @Johnno260 directly? I'm a bit crap at reading comprehension and it took me longer than I'm happy about to realise that this isn't a direct quote.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> This "doctor"?
> https://calmatters.org/health/2021/02/conspiracy-theory-doctor-surrenders-medical-license/



Thats him haha

For true 5G insanity look up Mark Steele, the mobile connection in street lighting it’s a direct energy weapon that can vaporise people.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Aug 2021)

Oh if you see this circling on Facebook feeds it’s fake as well.


View: https://www.facebook.com/100055523434986/posts/342185684308877/


The guys media profile list reality TV shows so he was a contestant not an actor, the main show being Lads Army, which I know well as we signed a friend up to it for a laugh, and he got in haha


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> For true 5G insanity look up Mark Steele, the mobile connection in street lighting it’s a direct energy weapon that can vaporise people.



  Is he able to explain why it hasn't vaporised _him_? _Yet._


----------



## Edwardoka (13 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Is he able to explain why it hasn't vaporised _him_? _Yet._


Unfortunately I know a full-blown conspiracy theorist and I can tell you that they spin webs of lies around themselves, cutting themselves off from reality. If one of their justifications (I can't in all sincerity call them _rationalisations_) for why they believe a given theory fails, they just move seamlessly to another.

With dozens or hundreds of cases where their theories or predictions have collapsed, at no point, in my experience, do they ever stop to reflect that _maybe it's all bollocks. _


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Aug 2021)

I hope people saw the news with Piers Corbyn and his cronies raiding the BBC, but the site they vacated in 2013?


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Aug 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> Unfortunately I know a full-blown conspiracy theorist and I can tell you that they spin webs of lies around themselves, cutting themselves off from reality. If one of their justifications (I can't in all sincerity call them _rationalisations_) for why they believe a given theory fails, they just move seamlessly to another.
> 
> With dozens or hundreds of cases where their theories or predictions have collapsed, *at no point, in my experience, do they ever stop to reflect that *_*maybe it's all bollocks. *_



They are not able to, otherwise their whole belief system would crumble.


----------



## Edwardoka (13 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I hope people saw the news with Piers Corbyn and his cronies raiding the BBC, but the site they vacated in 2013?


Yeah, it would be hilarious if it wasn't also a wee bit sinister. People had told the protesters that the BBC TV Centre had been mostly converted to luxury flats (with a couple of smaller studio spaces kept) but they didn't believe what they were told. You'd think being proven so emphatically wrong would give them a moment's pause... but no.

Piers Corbyn was also caught in a sting taking a bribe in exchange for downplaying his rhetoric against AZ.
Grifters and the easily led, in perfect harmony.


----------



## purpan (13 Aug 2021)

I was reading a story this morning in a French paper about a retired soldier who tried to raise an insurrection against the government because he was stirred up by conspiracies. He sent emails to former colleagures and then started visiting gendarmerie barracks (the gendarmerie is part of the military), taking boxes of chocolates to try and persuade them to join his rebellion. The report didn’t say what chocolates he was offering.

https://www.ladepeche.fr/2021/08/13...gendarme-interpelle-dans-la-loire-9730331.php


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Aug 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> Yeah, it would be hilarious if it wasn't also a wee bit sinister. People had told the protesters that the BBC TV Centre had been mostly converted to luxury flats (with a couple of smaller studio spaces kept) but they didn't believe what they were told. You'd think being proven so emphatically wrong would give them a moment's pause... but no.
> 
> Piers Corbyn was also caught in a sting taking a bribe in exchange for downplaying his rhetoric against AZ.
> Grifters and the easily led, in perfect harmony.



Is that the one when they switched the real 10k for Monopoly money?

I got banned from a conspiracy forum when someone said follow the money, so I linked that story and video.

Edit: The worrying and sinister part were those guys were ex paras the regiment confirmed this and wasn’t happy about the situation.


----------



## Craig the cyclist (13 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Oh if you see this circling on Facebook feeds it’s fake as well.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.facebook.com/100055523434986/posts/342185684308877/
> ...




That Hugo bloke has a point though. He genuinely does. I hadn't realised up until he pointed it out that actually he is right, we haven't ever seen an interview from someone who has recently died from Covid. I hadn't thought about it.

Maybe it doesn't exist or we would have heard from people who were recently deceased from it wouldn't we?


----------



## fossyant (13 Aug 2021)

There was an anti-vaxxer on another cycling forum the other day. Refused to have it as 'you don't know what's in it' and was angry with his parents for having jabs. Despite being given the evidence by other members, including a full ingredients list, he still wouldn't see the facts, and got all hissed off when people explained it fully.


----------



## fossyant (13 Aug 2021)

I even said, I hope you've had Tetanus jabs as an active MTB'er or even a sedate gardener.


----------



## Rusty Nails (13 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> There was an anti-vaxxer on another cycling forum the other day. Refused to have it as 'you don't know what's in it' and was angry with his parents for having jabs. Despite being given the evidence by other members, including a full ingredients list, he still wouldn't see the facts, and got all hissed off when people explained it fully.


Does he know what's in every tablet/medicine he takes or every prepared meal he eats, or pint of beer he drinks? It is not worth arguing with such people.


----------



## Johnno260 (16 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> There was an anti-vaxxer on another cycling forum the other day. Refused to have it as 'you don't know what's in it' and was angry with his parents for having jabs. Despite being given the evidence by other members, including a full ingredients list, he still wouldn't see the facts, and got all hissed off when people explained it fully.



All the ingredients are easy to find.

Like someone else said does he check every ingredient for every med he has ever taken?

Ask him to check the Yellowcard for household over the counter meds 



Craig the cyclist said:


> That Hugo bloke has a point though. He genuinely does. I hadn't realised up until he pointed it out that actually he is right, we haven't ever seen an interview from someone who has recently died from Covid. I hadn't thought about it.
> 
> Maybe it doesn't exist or we would have heard from people who were recently deceased from it wouldn't we?



Yea damn he has me there, who has a ouji board?


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (16 Aug 2021)

I wonder if any of the anti-vaxxers saying "you don;t know what is in it" have ever had a kebab 

I mean - what exactly IS in one of those 'probably meat' things they have turning slowly at 2 a.m. after the clubs kick out???


----------



## KnittyNorah (16 Aug 2021)

There are some interesting articles and links in Nature about 'how to talk to science sceptics' and I think they are well worth perusing if someone in your family has gone down the rabbit hole either fully or in part.
Talking to Science Deniers and Sceptics is not hopeless
and scroll down to the bottom for more useful links.

In essence it amounts to don't start - or finish - by arguing. Listen, chat, learn what the person thinks. Answer their questions as honestly as you can and try to leave them with something - however small, in fact small is better as it isn't as overtly threatening - that piques their curiousity or gives them pause for thought. You won't 'convert' them with your facts so why antagonise them?

Yes I know I know - they annoy me too and are the direct and indirect cause of so much suffering and death - BUT it really does seem that the more they are mocked or ridiculed, the more entrenched they become in their ridiculous beliefs so ...


----------



## Milkfloat (16 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I wonder if any of the anti-vaxxers saying "you don;t know what is in it" have ever had a kebab
> 
> I mean - what exactly IS in one of those 'probably meat' things they have turning slowly at 2 a.m. after the clubs kick out???


That’s an easy question - it’s an elephant leg. Not sure how they get hold of themselves seeing as elephants are protected in most of the world.


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I wonder if any of the anti-vaxxers saying "you don;t know what is in it" have ever had a kebab
> 
> I mean - what exactly IS in one of those 'probably meat' things they have turning slowly at 2 a.m. after the clubs kick out???


You’re certainly being inoculated with something!


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> That’s an easy question - it’s an elephant leg. Not sure how they get hold of themselves seeing as elephants are protected in most of the world.


----------



## PeteXXX (17 Aug 2021)

For some interesting / dangerous reading, take a look through David Icke's  site!
Some people actually think he's not a nutter..

Edit to correct link


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> For some interesting / dangerous reading, take a look through David Icke's site!
> Some people actually think he's not a nutter..


Your link may not be correct.


----------



## PeteXXX (17 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> Your link may not be correct.
> View attachment 604741


Thanks.. Clipboard oopsie! 😂


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> Thanks.. Clipboard oopsie! 😂


Not a case of seeing the wood for the tree's then?


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Aug 2021)

Talking to Science deniers....

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41...9373-13115e4795-46004806&utm_content=deeplink


----------



## winjim (17 Aug 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Talking to Science deniers....
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/d41...9373-13115e4795-46004806&utm_content=deeplink


It's the same with any discussion. Science, religion, politics. The heart rules the head, every time. We see it in discussions on this very forum. You'd think all those scientists wouldn't be averse to applying a little psychology, or even dare I say it, some basic empathy.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening,

We are still here!






50 plus blood donations yet still a vaccine sceptic and extremely stupid according to this thread!

How many here are anywhere close?

Bye

Ian

p.s.

This is quite quite funny as according the NHS I don't actually exist yet I can donate and about 20 years ago they sent me a letter saying thank you for your blood donation but it failed a test. Don't worry about this but if you are concerned here is a direct line to a Senior Consultant (12345,67890)!


----------



## purpan (17 Aug 2021)

Vaccination centre south of Toulouse attacked last night and 3,500 vaccine doses destroyed. Also computer equipment smashed.


----------



## C R (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening,
> 
> We are still here!
> 
> ...


?


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening,
> 
> We are still here!
> 
> ...


You can be Vaccine stupid and still give blood, they're not mutually exclusive....


----------



## Craig the cyclist (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening,
> 
> We are still here!
> 
> ...


So, have you had your jab?


----------



## Edwardoka (17 Aug 2021)

Oh no, @IanSmithCSE has been compromised, otherwise he'd also be posting his anti troll link so that we can see reviews of him from other websites to make sure he's not a troll


----------



## newfhouse (17 Aug 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> Thanks.. Clipboard oopsie! 😂


Could have been considerably worse….


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening


Craig the cyclist said:


> So, have you had your jab?



None of your businesss

Kind regards

Ian


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening

Wow, the bitterness here is staggering;



Edwardoka said:


> Oh no, @IanSmithCSE has been compromised, otherwise he'd also be posting his anti troll link so that we can see reviews of him from other websites to make sure he's not a troll




Kind regards

Ian


----------



## Edwardoka (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening
> 
> Wow, the bitterness here is staggering;
> 
> ...


This has been a most unseemly reply, please provide an anti-troll token that I may leave a review


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening,



Edwardoka said:


> This has been a most unseemly reply, please provide an anti-troll token that I may leave a review



You have misunderstood, the idea was to ensure that the posts were genuine not that they may offend some one, that is none of my business but as you want a code it is

1981 validate code at http://www.IanSmithCSE.co.uk/AntiTroll/LookupCode.aspx

It is very easy to be smug, clever but is much harder to actually do something.

Kind regards

Ian Smith


----------



## Fab Foodie (17 Aug 2021)

Conundrum. Will anti-vaxers accept blood from vaccinated donors?


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Validate you on your own site!


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Conundrum. Will anti-vaxers accept blood from vaccinated donors?


Thought they didn't know who had donated the blood.


----------



## PaulB (17 Aug 2021)

Another conundrum. We find lots of people on the website of my football team - fans who ADORE them, are in a real dilemma. It's been announced that after October 7th, all match-going fans need to show proof of having had two vaccines or their season tickets will be invalid. The anti-vaxxers are stating quite categorically they will NOT be poisoning their bodies but as we get nearer the time, the need to see the club will most definitely swing some of them over to the other side.

It will be fascinating to see how some of them deal with this situation.


----------



## KnittyNorah (17 Aug 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Conundrum. Will anti-vaxers accept blood from vaccinated donors?


Definitely an interesting one, that! I imagine they'd prefer it to be unvaccinated so as not to be infused with any of that 'changed DNA'. magnetism, microchips or 'unknown ingredients' - but I suppose the reluctance to accept blood from a vaccinated donor is fairly easily overcome when it's a life and death situation, as blood transfusion often is. 

Funny how all sorts of things which were unpalatable can suddenly become acceptable when it's your own life on the line and not someone else's ...


----------



## Edwardoka (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Moment of sincerity: you are absolutely correct, it is a lot easier to be snarky than to do something. I find that I get into a lot more online arguments when my mental health is poor. I apologise for being a nobber.

With the sincerity out of the way, I have left a facetious report that you can disregard, but thank you for humouring me
Ed


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening,


classic33 said:


> Validate you on your own site!


I have noticed that you are completely hostile to me trying to do anything useful or helpful, why is this?

I know that you are not alone, @Edwardoka is also hostile.

I have also seen many other posters being abused for making suggestions.

You could have said that site doesn't work on xyx browser on xyz O/S but you didn't.

Kind regards

Ian


----------



## Johnno260 (17 Aug 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Conundrum. Will anti-vaxers accept blood from vaccinated donors?



put that on Twitter and see how it explodes, I mean many of them think doctors are parrots.


----------



## Craig the cyclist (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening
> 
> 
> None of your businesss
> ...


Fair enough.

It's just we were helping you get booked in for your jab a few months ago. At the time you were saying were not an anti-vaxxer. You were obviously just wasting our time and lying.

All the best with whatever decision you made.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening,



Edwardoka said:


> Moment of sincerity: you are absolutely correct, it is a lot easier to be snarky than to do something. I find that I get into a lot more online arguments when my mental health is poor. I apologise for being a nobber.
> 
> With the sincerity out of the way, I have left a facetious report that you can disregard, but thank you for humouring me
> Ed


Thanks for the update. :-)

Kind regards

Ian


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good evening,
> 
> I have noticed that you are completely hostile to me trying to do anything useful or helpful, why is this?
> 
> ...


It's not hostile.
You provided a link to your own site, to validate your actions. Basically backing yourself up, via a website you run.

If the only "evidence" any person can provide is their own, I'll be dubious of such evidence. And not just "evidence" on a website.

It's interesting to note that the site says not to report the code given here on the site linked to.

Below added in edit.
The site works on the current browser and operating system, why should I then say it doesn't. It makes no sense.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening,



Craig the cyclist said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> It's just we were helping you get booked in for your jab a few months ago. At the time you were saying were not an anti-vaxxer. You were obviously just wasting our time and lying.
> 
> All the best with whatever decision you made.


Oh dear,

You have swallowed the official Kool-Aid. 

I was never that interested but I did have my first jab about six weeks ago, despite the best efforts of most of the NHS Staff to ensure that I didn't. I got this from NHSE Customer Contact Centre <england.contactus@nhs.net>

_ A practice cannot refuse to register you unless it has reasonable grounds for doing so. These must not relate to race, gender, social class, age, religion, sexual orientation, appearance, disability, or a medical condition. However, you may be refused if you are living outside the practice’s catchment area or the practice is generally not accepting new patients at the time because its list is closed. You do not need proof of ID, address or immigration status to register with a GP. Registering with a GP will in due course allocate you an NHS number
outlook_

Try telling this to a GP Practice, despite this I went to a walk in centre and someone said, "oh you are odd, I need to go that screen." and I think that I had an injection, I was given a receipt, but it didn't hurt. :=)

Despite having the first trying arrange a second has also been an issue.

Kind regards

Ian


----------



## Edwardoka (17 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> It's not hostile.
> You provided a link to your own site, to validate your actions. Basically backing yourself up, via a website you run.
> 
> If the only "evidence" any person can provide is their own, I'll be dubious of such evidence. And not just "evidence" on a website.


In Ian's defence, he provided a link to his own site only when I specifically requested it.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

Good evening.


classic33 said:


> It's not hostile.
> You provided a link to your own site, to validate your actions. Basically backing yourself up, via a website you run.
> 
> If the only "evidence" any person can provide is their own, I'll be dubious of such evidence. And not just "evidence" on a website.
> ...


It's only on a domain that I obviously own because it was an idea.

It's about £10 a year to register and put it on another domain, such as HardCoreDodgyAdultAction.xxxx.xxxx and as GDPR/PECR has made it much harder to track domains and I was hoping for the idea to been good or bad regardless of the domain.

Quite a few years ago I ran into the expression "Naïve cynicism" it basically meant mistrusting everyone, a wave over my avatar says member since Sep 2012 so bouncing a forum related idea of a forum didn't seem that bad.

Kind regards

Ian


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 Aug 2021)

err

just looked at this thread
you 'think' you got an injection???

don;t you know - it is kinda obvious even for a wimp like me who looks the other way
you got a receipt??
why would you think the vaccine card is 'a receipt'??
and you would also get some paperwork about what vaccine it was and when you need the second dose
and about possible side effects
and been asked several question before being jabbed
and maybe being told to hang around for 15 minutes just in case

how can you not know all this????

all seems kinda weird


----------



## IanSmithCSE (17 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> err
> 
> just looked at this thread
> you 'think' you got an injection???
> ...


There are certain joke elements that are no obvious at first glance if you are just scanning the forums.

Back in the 1970s blood donation involved quite large needles.
They were often inserted by retired doctors who I am sure blunted them deliberately, :-).
Nurses who could see where the needle was going weren't allowed to insert needles
You need to read my previous threads to appreciate the light hearted nature of these posts and not take them literally.

It is very common here and on other forums to look at a single post and not look at the poster's history to try and understand what the poster is actually saying.

The feeling of an injection needle into the muscle in the upper arm and a blood extraction needle into a vein around the inside of the elbow are very different, especially if a pint is taken and you ride 30 miles.

Bye

Ian


----------



## mjr (20 Aug 2021)

purpan said:


> Vaccination centre south of Toulouse attacked last night and 3,500 vaccine doses destroyed. Also computer equipment smashed.


They're a bit more mellow in Norfolk. Even in Downham Market, which is pretty close to frothing right-wing and the only place I've seen shops put up big "masks optional - we respect your rights" signs (which mean I don't shop there...), no-one has yet trashed the Town Hall vaccination centre. But they have peppered the town liberally with "LIZ TRUSS OUT - Child vaccination supporter - For the rich, not the people" stickers. Even NCN11 had about half a dozen on lampposts:


----------



## winjim (20 Aug 2021)

So apparently they're eating dog food now?


View: https://twitter.com/BillyVacant/status/1428608865050968064?s=19


And another one from my walks out with the kids, this time Lathkill Dale*.






*A very nice little valley which I'd cycled past many times but never visited. Quite rocky and fairly hard going with a six and a two year old. Both were absolute troupers though.


----------



## Ajax Bay (20 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> So apparently they're eating dog food now?
> Ivermectin for canines doses


@winjim - do you know Ivermectin has NOT got beneficial therapeutic effects against COVID-19?
Not dog food - please keep up!
Ivermectin is a cheap antiparasitic drug widely used for nearly 50 years in animals and humans. It is a treatment used for adults suffering from bad Scabies and people with intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms, so in human medicine form in UK it's approved by NICE, on prescription.
Some studies (reputation uncertain) have reported benefits eg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
Others have been widely discredited. No trials have results which suggest adverse effect.
The BBC reported this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57570377
I am not recommending consumption of animal level assurance medicine: people can consume more or less what they like: some people smoke: and that's been proven to be bad for you: uncertainly worse than consuming canine ivermectin tablets.
But this not 'anti-vaxx' (see thread title): it's an earnest search for medicine when we still have none, certainly outside hospital.
However groups with an anti-vaccination agenda seem also to suggest ivermectin is sufficient as a prophylactic, and the messaging often comes mixed in with conspiracy theories. Any support for 'anti-vaccination' is a bad thing.
You'll be poo-pooing the idea that it's a good idea to keep Vitamin D levels up next! UK levels of Vitamin D (derivative) in UK are particularly poor in those communities which seem to suffer the worst effects of COVID-19. No causative effect has been shown.


----------



## Milzy (20 Aug 2021)

I’ve had a common cold with a terrible sore throat which has knocked me for six. Three days later still not right. I haven’t been able to sleep properly with the pain. I’d happily have boosters to stop that kind of thing. I won’t be having a third Pfizer c19 vaccination though.


----------



## winjim (20 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> @winjim - do you know Ivermectin has NOT got beneficial therapeutic effects against COVID-19?
> Not dog food - please keep up!
> Ivermectin is a cheap antiparasitic drug widely used for nearly 50 years in animals and humans. It is a treatment used for adults suffering from bad Scabies and people with intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms, so in human medicine form in UK it's approved by NICE, on prescription.
> Some studies (reputation uncertain) have reported benefits eg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
> ...


Yeah but it's funnier to say they're eating dog food.


----------



## HMS_Dave (20 Aug 2021)

Through all the fluff and guff it is still a choice. What is also a choice is whether those business owners and privately owned public events etc want to have non-vaccinated people frequent their property and gatherings. Freedom of choice works both ways. You can't be pro-choice then not at the same time...


----------



## Rusty Nails (20 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> @winjim - do you know Ivermectin has NOT got beneficial therapeutic effects against COVID-19?
> Not dog food - please keep up!
> Ivermectin is a cheap antiparasitic drug widely used for nearly 50 years in animals and humans. It is a treatment used for adults suffering from bad Scabies and people with intestinal strongyloidiasis and onchocerciasis, two conditions caused by parasitic worms, so in human medicine form in UK it's approved by NICE, on prescription.
> Some studies (reputation uncertain) have reported benefits eg: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
> ...


I've used Ivermectin cream to treat a patch of rosacea and it seems to have helped a lot.

The only downside is I can't pass a lamp-post without cocking my leg for a pee.


----------



## KnittyNorah (20 Aug 2021)

Re Ivermectin

One of the most effective drug campaigns of all time was (and still is) the campaign against onchocerciasis, or River Blindness, caused by a parasitic worm transmitted by the bite of a river-breeding black fly. As recently as 1981, it was discovered, through clinical trials in Senegal, that ivermectin was stunningly effective against River Blindness - a disease that had blinded millions in sub-Saharan Africa (and a few countries elsewhere) and devastated many formerly reasonably-prosperous communities. 
A simple ivermectin tablet every year for several years stops the damage caused by these worms in their tracks. The act of Merck Sharpe and Dohme in pledging to provide this (low cost but still expensive when used by the million) drug, free of charge to organisations and countries who need it to prevent River Blindness was, I believe, without precedent at that time. I never used to mind paying what often seemed like a high price for a horse wormer when I thought about what at least some of the profits were subsidising ...
Its two main 'discoverers' - an American of Irish heritage and a Japanese biologist, who was a keen golfer (an essential part of the story of ivermectin!) - received the Nobel prize. 
THIS is a good pdf of the story of its discovery; I was working in the Middle East when I first heard about it as a treatment for River Blindness and we had patients from Yemen, one of the few non-sub-Saharan countries which has issues with River Blindness.


----------



## Johnno260 (20 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Re Ivermectin
> 
> One of the most effective drug campaigns of all time was (and still is) the campaign against onchocerciasis, or River Blindness, caused by a parasitic worm transmitted by the bite of a river-breeding black fly. As recently as 1981, it was discovered, through clinical trials in Senegal, that ivermectin was stunningly effective against River Blindness - a disease that had blinded millions in sub-Saharan Africa (and a few countries elsewhere) and devastated many formerly reasonably-prosperous communities.
> A simple ivermectin tablet every year for several years stops the damage caused by these worms in their tracks. The act of Merck Sharpe and Dohme in pledging to provide this (low cost but still expensive when used by the million) drug, free of charge to organisations and countries who need it to prevent River Blindness was, I believe, without precedent at that time. I never used to mind paying what often seemed like a high price for a horse wormer when I thought about what at least some of the profits were subsidising ...
> ...



that can’t be true big pharma being nice and working for free!!!

remember they’re trying to kill us all! haha.

sarcasm mode off.

It’s Friday night and the crazies are out this is from a mutual friend.

“they want 80% of population dead by 2030 to reach a sustainable level, its going to be interesting to see long term effects of the drugs you are all taking and I guess somebody was going to part take in the live trials, thank f%$# it isnt me”

When I called out his depopulation bull.

“its government policy ffs. Its in public domain, not hidden. In plain sight, all the more soppy you dont read this stuff”

Yes these crazies walk among us haha


----------



## KnittyNorah (20 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> they want 80% of population dead by 2030 to reach a sustainable level, its going to be interesting to see long term effects of the drugs you are all taking



Where DO they make it up? Is there a Fairy Story Factory somewhere in the lands of rainbow dust and unicorns which specialises in its production? Or is it a subset of the Fantasy Fiction genre, and found in 'alternative' bookshops?

We're already seeing the long-term effects of the drugs which _they've_ taken! Chronic nonsensicality and terminal gullibility!


----------



## Edwardoka (20 Aug 2021)

It is clear that there are two viruses doing the rounds, one which affects the respiratory system and another that affects the ability to think rationally. The volume of people who have completely lost touch with reality appears to be growing exponentially.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Where DO they make it up? Is there a Fairy Story Factory somewhere in the lands of rainbow dust and unicorns which specialises in its production? Or is it a subset of the Fantasy Fiction genre, and found in 'alternative' bookshops?
> 
> We're already seeing the long-term effects of the drugs which _they've_ taken! Chronic nonsensicality and terminal gullibility!



It’s a comment he made on a mutual friends post, I called him out and he is spamming like crazy it’s 100% Friday night I think he mistook the antifreeze for the kool aid as this guys certifiable.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (21 Aug 2021)

It is quite clear that the governments all want to kill off huge numbers of their population

Why wouldn't they???


Unless, of course, these are the people who pay tax and keep the government going
I not exactly sure how the government is planning to keep the country running if the tax payers all start dying
which - at least for a time - is actually a massive charge on the government - because they have to deal with the hospitals needing extra funding
and - it seems - most the the staff at the hospitals were the first to get the vaccine - so will be the first to die from it

sooooo
why would 'they' want the vaccine to kill us all???

honestly - maybe the gene is too shallow - but the idea that NOT taking the vaccine is the way to cure it is kinda inverted

Unless the government is made of of morons

Oh

hang on


hmmmmmmmm


----------



## mjr (21 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> It is quite clear that the governments all want to kill off huge numbers of their population
> [...]
> Unless the government is made of of morons
> 
> ...


No need to  if the government are morons, then they'll also fail at killing us!


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## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

Also just saying maths and statistics are all lies used to deceive us.






seems like an excuse to ignore hard facts when you don’t like them to me.


----------



## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Also just saying maths and statistics are all lies used to deceive us.
> View attachment 605261
> 
> 
> seems like an excuse to ignore hard facts when you don’t like them to me.


That's so close to getting it though.


----------



## Ajax Bay (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Also just saying maths and statistics are all lies used to deceive us.
> Seems like an excuse to ignore hard facts when you don’t like them to me.


Johnno - But this can be true, as @winjim says. Maths and statistics *aren't* *all* lies used to deceive us, but *can* be used mendaciously or to mislead. The quote "Lies, damn lies and statistics" comes to mind.
If a claim is made, you surely support checking it referring to reliable 'facts' using transparent maths as needed.


----------



## Milzy (21 Aug 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Through all the fluff and guff it is still a choice. What is also a choice is whether those business owners and privately owned public events etc want to have non-vaccinated people frequent their property and gatherings. Freedom of choice works both ways. You can't be pro-choice then not at the same time...


The businesses that choose to only have in jibbies will be the first to feel the pain I suspect look at Moscow jibby pxssport lasted 3 weeks as everyone including the jibbies boycotted places that went with the narrative?! You think it’s about your health and the nation’s health??


----------



## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> Johnno - But this can be true, as @winjim says. Maths and statistics *aren't* *all* lies used to deceive us, but *can* be used mendaciously or to mislead.
> If a claim is made, you surely support checking it referring to reliable 'facts' using transparent maths as needed.


Theoretical propositions do need to be demonstrated empirically and sometimes complex maths is required to analyse the data. What we need is a culture where we can allow the experts to interpret and explain the maths in a way that a lay person can understand and importantly, trust. Which is fine, and things can be simplified to a certain extent, but how do you do that while trying to overcome the biases of someone in the entrenched position of a fundamentalist antivaxxer?

Personally I think you can't, which is why you should target the undecideds and not the fundies.


----------



## mjr (21 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> The quote "Lies, damn lies and statistics" comes to mind.


Or more accurately, "Figures won't lie, but liars will figure" (attributed to Twain)


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## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Wrong said Fred.

https://metro.co.uk/2021/08/20/righ...ith-covid-but-still-refuses-vaccine-15126800/


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## Bazzer (21 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> Wrong said Fred.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2021/08/20/righ...ith-covid-but-still-refuses-vaccine-15126800/


"I've had a bit of Covid...." The anti vaxxer's word play. Would he say "I've had a bit of syphilis", or "A bit of plague."?


----------



## Ajax Bay (21 Aug 2021)

Bazzer said:


> "I've had a bit of Covid...." The anti vaxxer's word play. Would he say "I've had a bit of syphilis", or "A bit of plague."?


Can you vaccinate against syphillis? Just asking; for a friend.
(Is raining here, otherwise I would enjoying a long ride. Hoping it will clear by this afternoon.)


----------



## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Bazzer said:


> "I've had a bit of Covid...." The anti vaxxer's word play. Would he say "I've had a bit of syphilis", or "A bit of plague."?


I noticed the caption reading 'Richard has achieved chart success over a number of decades with Right Said Fred' and was going to make a joke about the number of decades being one. Then I looked it up and saw that they reached No18 in 2001 so they've actually had chart success over two decades. Who knew?


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

@winjim @Ajax Bay oh for sure but this guy as an example is a flat earther and Covid denier, if you use maths to explain anything he basically says uh oh maths is a lie, or he makes the claim all Covid deaths are exclusively vaccinated, but if you give him actually numbers and evidence it’s a lie.

also gravity is a lie to him.


----------



## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> @winjim @Ajax Bay oh for sure but this guy as an example is a flat earther and Covid denier, if you use maths to explain anything he basically says uh oh maths is a lie, or he makes the claim all Covid deaths are exclusively vaccinated, but if you give him actually numbers and evidence it’s a lie.
> 
> also gravity is a lie to him.


Was he dropped on his head as a baby?


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## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> Was he dropped on his head as a baby?


Best reason I heard yet for many of these people I’m going with that!!

I should’ve explained the story of that post more but like I said he said that after some Covid claims and flat earth stuff, but I had time for a longer bike ride and wanted out the door ASAP haha






But you can’t use gravity to explain it as that’s for kids, and while the linear speed at the equator is 1000mph it’s scale, a better measure is 15 degree per hour, now to scale that down, sit on a kids Merry go round that rotates once every 24hrs and tell me that’s fast haha


----------



## Milzy (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Best reason I heard yet for many of these people I’m going with that!!
> 
> I should’ve explained the story of that post more but like I said he said that after some Covid claims and flat earth stuff, but I had time for a longer bike ride and wanted out the door ASAP haha
> 
> ...


I still find it fascinating that mass pulls things towards it. Learn all the science you want it’s just bizarre but the wonders of the universe are really strange.


----------



## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Best reason I heard yet for many of these people I’m going with that!!
> 
> I should’ve explained the story of that post more but like I said he said that after some Covid claims and flat earth stuff, but I had time for a longer bike ride and wanted out the door ASAP haha
> 
> ...


I agree that just saying 'it's gravity' is insufficient as knowing the name of a thing is not the same as knowing the thing. But, you'll find that five year olds have fertile imaginations and are able to grasp the Einsteinian model of curved space-time pretty well.


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## winjim (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> I still find it fascinating that mass pulls things towards it. Learn all the science you want it’s just bizarre but the wonders of the universe are really strange.


Five year olds believe in fairies and magic and unicorns and talking steam locomotives and all kinds of weird stuff. Gravity is mundane in comparison.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> I agree that just saying 'it's gravity' is insufficient as knowing the name of a thing is not the same as knowing the thing. But, you'll find that five year olds have fertile imaginations and are able to grasp the Einsteinian model of curved space-time pretty well.



true but it’s how satellites work, the ISS is a classic example of speed and gravity.

There is a fantastic test in a vacuum chamber with a bowling ball and a feather, what hits the ground first.

Flat earthers can never answer simple questions:

1) why can’t I see Polaris from the Southern Hemisphere.
2) why can’t I see the Southern cross from the northern hemisphere.
3) why can I view container ships disappear over the the horizon bottom first.
4) why can I view celestial objects that are globe looking and have observable rotation (looking at you Jupiter)

Also asking someone to demonstrate gravity or how water sticks to a globe is kinda hard with a practical test, how can something within earths sphere of influence compete against the mass of the planet, it’s kind of a straw man argument.


----------



## fossyant (21 Aug 2021)

Remember when I posted about a mate who hadn't been jabbed, but was fit as a fiddle (postie). He very nearly died with covid. Well, asked one of his colleagues yesterday and he's still not well enough to return to work.

Poison my aris. He's desperate to get the jab now. 

Anti vaxxers will go the way of the dodo.


----------



## HMS_Dave (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> The businesses that choose to only have in jibbies will be the first to feel the pain I suspect look at Moscow jibby pxssport lasted 3 weeks as everyone including the jibbies boycotted places that went with the narrative?! You think it’s about your health and the nation’s health??


Well you can talk about Russia if you wish, you're clearly the expert. But here in the UK where 90% of the UK over 16 have received at least 1 dose and over 75% have been double jabbed and increasing, i would would wager businesses can make their decision on who they allow on their premises with confidence.


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## Fab Foodie (21 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Anti vaxxers will go the way of the dodo.


We can hope...


----------



## classic33 (21 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Anti vaxxers will go the way of the dodo.


Hunted to extinction!


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## Stephenite (21 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> Hunted to extinction!


Eaten?!


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## classic33 (21 Aug 2021)

Stephenite said:


> Eaten?!


I know there's talk of food supply problems, but I feel eating anti vaxxers is going a bit too far.


----------



## Milzy (21 Aug 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Well you can talk about Russia if you wish, you're clearly the expert. But here in the UK where 90% of the UK over 16 have received at least 1 dose and over 75% have been double jabbed and increasing, i would would wager businesses can make their decision on who they allow on their premises with confidence.


Yes I do see your point. The minority unvaccinated are panicking a bit now. Personally I don’t think it will come down to this. If it did I’d laugh at the guys who’ve declined. 
I don’t want a 3rd so let’s hope they don’t make everyone have boosters.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Remember when I posted about a mate who hadn't been jabbed, but was fit as a fiddle (postie). He very nearly died with covid. Well, asked one of his colleagues yesterday and he's still not well enough to return to work.
> 
> Poison my aris. He's desperate to get the jab now.
> 
> Anti vaxxers will go the way of the dodo.



True but they still claim most ICU and deaths are vaccinated it’s total fabrication.

We know someone with long Covid and it’s destroyed their fitness, she needs a wheelchair to get from the front door to the car and it’s not a long walk it’s within 10 meters.

The fact is the chances of getting Myocarditis and long Covid outweigh the risks of Myocarditis from the vaccine, even if you’re one of the unlucky one from vaccination it’s treatable.

Below is a good read for numbers etc, he is an MD as well so not a tweeter/YouTube graduate.


View: https://twitter.com/jcedernaes/status/1428751008604299274?s=21


My wife’s frequently in tears from people in ICU who fell into this vaccine denial hole and now regret their choices, in some cases when it’s too late.

The people who influence these people have blood on their hands.


----------



## fossyant (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> Yes I do see your point. The minority unvaccinated are panicking a bit now. Personally I don’t think it will come down to this. If it did I’d laugh at the guys who’ve declined.
> I don’t want a 3rd so let’s hope they don’t make everyone have boosters.



I'm already booked in for the flu jab next month. A third covid nab is no issue. Working near students, I deffo don't want flu again. Two doses in autumn 2019 (one may have been covid). Its the 6 weeks lost cycling, nothing else.


----------



## Edwardoka (21 Aug 2021)

I found this comment elsewhere about the tagnuts who tried to "seize" Edinburgh Castle, but it's too good not to share here.
"This lot would better spend their time walking to the edge of the world and jumping off."

As for Right Said Fred:






LIAR
THAT'S A LIE


----------



## Stephenite (21 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> I know there's talk of food supply problems, but I feel eating anti vaxxers is going a bit too far.


If the anti-vaxxers are right and we’ve been poisoned by the ‘deep state/super rich’ maybe eating the unvaccinated is a cure. Just putting it out there.

I ought to make a utube video backed with wild off the cuff made up references and some graphs. See if it takes off.


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## Edwardoka (21 Aug 2021)

Stephenite said:


> If the anti-vaxxers are right and we’ve been poisoned by the ‘deep state/super rich’ maybe eating the unvaccinated is a cure. Just putting it out there.
> 
> I ought to make a utube video backed with wild off the cuff made up references and some graphs. See if it takes off.


If you need help with a tacky, terrible-looking thumbnail that says things like FACTS and LOGIC hit me up


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## Stephenite (21 Aug 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> If you need help with a tacky, terrible-looking thumbnail that says things like FACTS and LOGIC hit me up


Can you do misspelling?


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## Milzy (21 Aug 2021)

This is about all of us wether jabbed or not..! You want to live your live by wether your’re jibbed or not? You want a data trail on what you do day in day out? Some say it won’t come in but look at NY, Southern Ireland, Israel France, Australia, Denmark , Belgium we have to keep fighting so they don’t come in. The anti’s are saying losing this passport battle is not an option.


----------



## KnittyNorah (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> The people who influence these people have blood on their hands.


Ain't that the truth - about the only true thing in their entire existence.


----------



## classic33 (21 Aug 2021)

Stephenite said:


> If the anti-vaxxers are right and we’ve been poisoned by the ‘deep state/super rich’ maybe eating the unvaccinated is a cure. Just putting it out there.
> 
> I ought to make a utube video backed with wild off the cuff made up references and some graphs. See if it takes off.


How about "roasting an arm" for dinner on your video. 
I'm sure you'd be able to get a small leg of lamb to look like an arm.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> This is about all of us wether jabbed or not..! You want to live your live by wether your’re jibbed or not? You want a data trail on what you do day in day out? Some say it won’t come in but look at NY, Southern Ireland, Israel France, Australia, Denmark , Belgium we have to keep fighting so they don’t come in. The anti’s are saying losing this passport battle is not an option.



If they want to track what I do it’s all on the smartphone in my pocket, it would make pretty boring reading.

Monday to Friday 5am goes on bike ride2-3 different routes, 9am to sometimes 10pm sits at a desk in his housing working.

Saturday - Sunday longer bike routes with family walks/trips thrown in.


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## Milzy (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> If they want to track what I do it’s all on the smartphone in my pocket, it would make pretty boring reading.
> 
> Monday to Friday 5am goes on bike ride2-3 different routes, 9am to sometimes 10pm sits at a desk in his housing working.
> 
> Saturday - Sunday longer bike routes with family walks/trips thrown in.


I said a similar thing to my mate.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/alistaircoleman/status/1428994629790228481?s=21

Again with the disinformation and people using stuff for animals.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> I said a similar thing to my mate.



Same conversation with my crazy aunt, the vaccine has tracking chips, I said really what’s powering it, where is the antenna it requires, I said considering the pet ones only work with a wand at close range. 

Also your using a smartphone did you turn off location services? Did you think about what GPS means on the smart watch you were showing off actually does.

Did you think about all the times you paid for something using a card etc etc

Oh the irony right? haha


----------



## KnittyNorah (21 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Same conversation with my crazy aunt, the vaccine has tracking chips,



Any of that nonsense and I just say calmly that I don't believe it has tracking chips as I have seen real tracking chips and the physical size of them. I then say that the best way to avoid tracking - which desire I totally sympathise with - is to get rid of your smartphone and that's why I still have a dumbphone... (which I do, but that's not 'why' ...).


----------



## markemark (21 Aug 2021)

I think it’s also worth celebrating that we’ve managed to get 90% of the U.K. adult population to do something. We can’t get close to that to vote, complete a census, take exercise, eat properly….


----------



## alicat (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> This is about all of us wether jabbed or not..! You want to live your live by wether your’re jibbed or not? You want a data trail on what you do day in day out? Some say it won’t come in but look at NY, Southern Ireland, Israel France, Australia, Densmark , Belgium we have to keep fighting so they don’t come in. The anti’s are saying losing this passport battle is not an option.


Sorry, could you say that again in plain English?


----------



## Edwardoka (21 Aug 2021)

alicat said:


> Sorry, could you say that again in plain English?


They're suggesting that the requirement to show proof of vaccination is a snooper's charter that has terrifying consequences for the privacy of all individuals, ignoring that we already live in one of the most surveilled states in the world and that plenty of mechanisms for spying on citizens are already freely available.

The actual reason why anti-vaxxers can't afford to lose the vaccine passport battle is because if they do, they will come to be openly recognised as the selfish, lackwitted cretins that they are, who have decided that they deserve all of the benefits of belonging to society and none of the responsibilities.

Not that I'm opinionated or anything.


----------



## alicat (21 Aug 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> They're suggesting that the requirement to show proof of vaccination is a snooper's charter that has terrifying consequences for the privacy of all individuals, ignoring that we already live in one of the most surveilled states in the world and that plenty of mechanisms for spying on citizens are already freely available.
> 
> The actual reason why anti-vaxxers can't afford to lose the vaccine passport battle is because if they do, they will come to be openly recognised as the selfish, lackwitted cretins that they are, who have decided that they deserve all of the benefits of belonging to society and none of the responsibilities.
> 
> Not that I'm opinionated or anything.


Thanks for the explanation for those of us who aren't keeping up at the back.


----------



## Milzy (21 Aug 2021)

alicat said:


> Sorry, could you say that again in plain English?


I’m just trying to say what my mate Dave said. He’s in cloud cuckoo land.


----------



## mjr (21 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> I’m just trying to say what my mate Dave said. He’s in cloud cuckoo land.


Is Cloud Cuckoo Land the one ruled by the lizard people or the aliens who want to eat humans on sticks? I always get those two muddled.

I rode into Wisbech today and saw no antivaxx shoot but I was in a tourist venue and I suspect they're making an effort to clean that shoot off on sight before it scares away paying customers like the Londoners at the next table! Other people's freedom to speak conspiracy theories comes a poor second to £££ in these difficult times.


----------



## KnittyNorah (22 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> Is Cloud Cuckoo Land the one ruled by the lizard people or the aliens who want to eat humans on sticks? I always get those two muddled.


I thought it was the Illuminati ... did you know that there is a network of _sooper-seekrit _Illuminati tunnels in Blackpool????
But what do I know ...?


----------



## Johnno260 (22 Aug 2021)

no anti vax are saying London 2012 opening ceremony was a satanic ritual to hail the coming of Covid.

















I hope these people never have the cheek to use the NHS again.


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## Edwardoka (22 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> no anti vax are saying London 2012 opening ceremony was a satanic ritual to hail the coming of Covid.
> 
> View attachment 605402
> 
> ...


Indeed. Waste of perfectly good oxygen.


----------



## Arrowfoot (22 Aug 2021)

Part of the problem is we have became politically correct and call them ill informed. We actually attempt to rationalise with science when they don't believe in it. In the past we ignored them completely. They were already there in ancient times with the likes of Shamans and druids. 

By engaging them in person or via social media, we give them a platform, we give them oxygen and eventually a standing in society.

Don't circulate anything from them for a start. That will help to reduce their profile and presence.


----------



## Milzy (22 Aug 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Part of the problem is we have became politically correct and call them ill informed. We actually attempt to rationalise with science when they don't believe in it. In the past we ignored them completely. They were already there in ancient times with the likes of Shamans and druids.
> 
> By engaging them in person or via social media, we give them a platform, we give them oxygen and eventually a standing in society.
> 
> Don't circulate anything from them for a start. That will help to reduce their profile and presence.


They say we are the ill informed because nearly every media outlet is deep state controlled. Sure politics can effect it to a certain degree. If you argue with a fool then there’s two.


----------



## Johnno260 (22 Aug 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Part of the problem is we have became politically correct and call them ill informed. We actually attempt to rationalise with science when they don't believe in it. In the past we ignored them completely. They were already there in ancient times with the likes of Shamans and druids.
> 
> By engaging them in person or via social media, we give them a platform, we give them oxygen and eventually a standing in society.
> 
> Don't circulate anything from them for a start. That will help to reduce their profile and presence.



Issue being by engaging with them for example via social media you may stop someone on the fence falling down the rabbit hole.

I had a relative who believed the whole conspiracy about the vaccine being 99.9% Graphene, using maths and some materials science PhD information I made them at least agree that claim was false. If a public admission is seen it could help?

Edit: they are still totally cuckoo but they did at least agree on that one claim.


----------



## mjr (22 Aug 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> Part of the problem is we have became politically correct and call them ill informed. We actually attempt to rationalise with science when they don't believe in it. In the past we ignored them completely.


I am pretty sure we called them delusional farking nobber shoot spreading daffodil daffodil daffodil.

I wonder if the filters are ready for that


----------



## Arrowfoot (22 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> I am pretty sure we called them delusional farking nobber shoot spreading daffodil daffodil daffodil.
> 
> I wonder if the filters are ready for that


Thats exactly what they are.


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## Milzy (23 Aug 2021)

https://rumble.com/vlhkwe-irrefutab...d-all-who-knowingly-cooperated-to-prison.html


----------



## icowden (23 Aug 2021)

I rather liked this one:


View: https://twitter.com/tundeolaniran/status/1425097018666532880


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## Johnno260 (23 Aug 2021)

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

anti vax are losing it on social media.


----------



## Milzy (23 Aug 2021)

My jabs we’re placebos apparently.


----------



## Ajax Bay (23 Aug 2021)

So we're (sic) your apostrophes (or autocorrect).


----------



## Fab Foodie (23 Aug 2021)

mjr said:


> Is Cloud Cuckoo Land the one ruled by the lizard people or the aliens who want to eat humans on sticks? I always get those two muddled.
> 
> I rode into Wisbech today and saw no antivaxx shoot but I was in a tourist venue and I suspect they're making an effort to clean that shoot off on sight before it scares away paying customers like the Londoners at the next table! Other people's freedom to speak conspiracy theories comes a poor second to £££ in these difficult times.


There’s no vaccine against Wisbech....


----------



## Profpointy (23 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> I know there's talk of food supply problems, but I feel eating anti vaxxers is going a bit too far.



Quite. You might catch a nasty disease


----------



## newfhouse (23 Aug 2021)

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...y-itv-nnews-and-channel-4-london-headquarters

Sooner or later someone is going to be hurt by these deranged people.


----------



## Johnno260 (23 Aug 2021)

newfhouse said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...y-itv-nnews-and-channel-4-london-headquarters
> 
> Sooner or later someone is going to be hurt by these deranged people.



Well plenty in the hospitals who listened to this narrative. 

These rallies seem to attract a certain type of person and it’s more than likely a ticking bomb until they hurt someone.


----------



## Edwardoka (24 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Issue being by engaging with them for example via social media you may stop someone on the fence falling down the rabbit hole.
> 
> I had a relative who believed the whole conspiracy about the vaccine being 99.9% Graphene, using maths and some materials science PhD information I made them at least agree that claim was false. If a public admission is seen it could help?
> 
> Edit: they are still totally cuckoo but they did at least agree on that one claim.


Conversely in my experience I find that by engaging someone who is on the fence all that ends up happening is that they go down the rabbit hole more quickly. Maybe that's just because it's me doing the talking, though.


----------



## Low Gear Guy (25 Aug 2021)

I thought that I had missed out on this as I am not on Facebook. I have only seen a few lamppost stickers around town.
We have recently had a leaflet through the door with list of websites where one can learn the 'truth'. There is also an invitation to a meet up. I won't be able to make this as I was planning on more time with my bike at the weekend.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Aug 2021)




----------



## ebikeerwidnes (29 Aug 2021)

we may end up with the new guy having bigger numbers!


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Aug 2021)

A few jems from a prominent anti vax/flat earther I comment on, the comments got me.













Be safe people.




Some grade A research “pfeizer and skin to skin inhalation” on an official document.

I don’t know wether to laugh or cry about the last comment.


----------



## KnittyNorah (31 Aug 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Some grade A research “pfeizer and skin to skin inhalation” on an official document.
> 
> I don’t know wether to laugh or cry about the last comment.



Oh wow. Just wow. 
What alternate reality are they in? 
HIV? Skin to skin inhalation? Poison?

Don't they know that the devices they are using to spread this ... this ... _turdism _are tracking them all the time ...? And constantly exposing them to different sorts of radiation! Heck - they can probably inhale the radiation through their skin!


----------



## Ajax Bay (31 Aug 2021)

"I don't want Injected bodily fluids"! Sexless marriage then?


----------



## Ajax Bay (31 Aug 2021)

Don't think inhalation of radiation is a thing, is it?


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> Don't think inhalation of radiation is a thing, is it?



I'm still stuck on skin to skin inhalation..... on the official documentation.

I know engaging with these people is pointless, but if it stops one person teetering on the edge of the rabbit hole I will take that as a win.


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Oh wow. Just wow.
> What alternate reality are they in?
> HIV? Skin to skin inhalation? Poison?
> 
> Don't they know that the devices they are using to spread this ... this ... _turdism _are tracking them all the time ...? And constantly exposing them to different sorts of radiation! Heck - they can probably inhale the radiation through their skin!



My aunt on a family Zoom call starting speaking about vaccine trackers, I said you have an iphone in your hand, and a GPS smart watch, she didn't see the irony.

She mentioned the pet chips, I said those are a larger needle, and I said the range is pitiful the receiver the vet uses is basically point blank, I said the antenna and power needed for something to be a proper tracker would make it far far larger, but that little piece of science doesn't matter.


----------



## C R (31 Aug 2021)

Now they would rather take horse doses of ivermectin than have the vaccine. 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...estock-drug-sweeping-america-covid-ivermectin

There's no hope for humanity.


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Aug 2021)

C R said:


> Now they would rather take horse doses of ivermectin than have the vaccine.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/comment...estock-drug-sweeping-america-covid-ivermectin
> 
> There's no hope for humanity.



I can’t decide if I want to laugh or cry at that.

I have seen people defending Shemirani today as well after her antics in Brighton.


----------



## Milzy (31 Aug 2021)

They think HCQ kills cancer cells but the deep state don’t want you to know that because they get too much money from other drugs & let the population die off.


----------



## KnittyNorah (31 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> Don't think inhalation of radiation is a thing, is it?



Inhalation of radioactive gases, vapours and particles - and hence irradiation resulting in the lungs - certainly is a thing ... 
In fact, inhalation of naturally-occurring radon gas is one of the main sources of natural radiation exposure. 
But you're quite right - you don't actually inhale 'radiation' as such!


----------



## cougie uk (31 Aug 2021)

I can't wait to see them trying to poo the virus out. 
And now a judge in the States has ruled that a sick patient can have dewormer if he wants it. 
That'll probably finish him off.


----------



## Edwardoka (31 Aug 2021)

Pity that the horse dewormer can't get at the worms infesting their brains.


----------



## KnittyNorah (31 Aug 2021)

W- e-e- l - l .... being honest and factual, ivermectin is an almost miraculous preventive, when administered correctly, of River Blindness. 
So maybe - just maybe - it will act similarly against metaphorical blindness ...

No, I didn't think so. Pity.


----------



## Ajax Bay (31 Aug 2021)

You're all being rather negative about Ivermectin. Are there studies which show it is harmful if taken in human dose quantities? Clearly it would be sensible to use medicine designed and produced for human consumption but that can only be obtained on prescription, hence people reaching out for product designed for animals (assumed to be at lower quality and certainly low assurance).
Are there studies which show it has prophylactic benefit (ie Norah's "preventive" (sic)) against COVID-19? None of any quality - because people have been refused funding to do any, probably because there seems no likelihood that there would be benefit (so would be difficult to get through the ethics committee (for human testing).
There are many other 'anti-vaxx static targets to fire at: no need to fire at moving ones. Providing people don't overdose themselves there is little harm other than levels of side effect similar to many other regularly consumed medical drugs. There might be a placebo effect.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (31 Aug 2021)

Problem is they are taking pills designed for sheep and horses
doses vary a lot between different species - so a sheep may look about the size of a man but as they systems are different the doses may be totally different

but people are taking pills for Horses - a way bigger animal - and in this case it requires a much bigger does but they are just taking the pill as is

so - Yes - they could take the human pills - but there is a shortage so they are finding a supplier from the good old WWW
hence the potential problems
and actual problems - lots of cases of poisoning reported by A&E departments


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> You're all being rather negative about Ivermectin. Are there studies which show it is harmful if taken in human dose quantities? Clearly it would be sensible to use medicine designed and produced for human consumption but that can only be obtained on prescription, hence people reaching out for product designed for animals (assumed to be at lower quality and certainly low assurance).
> Are there studies which show it has prophylactic benefit (ie Norah's "preventive" (sic)) against COVID-19? None of any quality - because people have been refused funding to do any, probably because there seems no likelihood that there would be benefit (so would be difficult to get through the ethics committee (for human testing).
> There are many other 'anti-vaxx static targets to fire at: no need to fire at moving ones. Providing people don't overdose themselves there is little harm other than levels of side effect similar to many other regularly consumed medical drugs. There might be a placebo effect.



The only one I’m aware of was found wanting, It was withdrawn with serious concerns:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....vid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

My main issue with what I found today was the post I linked, it’s basically blackmailing someone to make choices that suit themselves, I don’t even think it’s an education issue, I don’t know how people can think those kind of things and claim it’s research.

It carries a weight of shame as I know family members who spread this kind of junk.


----------



## classic33 (31 Aug 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Problem is they are taking pills designed for sheep and horses
> doses vary a lot between different species - so a sheep may look about the size of a man but as they systems are different the doses may be totally different
> 
> but people are taking pills for Horses - a way bigger animal - and in this case it requires a much bigger does but they are just taking the pill as is
> ...


The way they are taken/administered are different as well. It tends to be daily dose for a human, a one-off dose for an animal.


----------



## KnittyNorah (31 Aug 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> You're all being rather negative about Ivermectin. Are there studies which show it is harmful if taken in human dose quantities? Clearly it would be sensible to use medicine designed and produced for human consumption but that can only be obtained on prescription, hence people reaching out for product designed for animals (assumed to be at lower quality and certainly low assurance).
> Are there studies which show it has prophylactic benefit (ie Norah's "preventive" (sic)) against COVID-19? None of any quality - because people have been refused funding to do any, probably because there seems no likelihood that there would be benefit (so would be difficult to get through the ethics committee (for human testing).
> There are many other 'anti-vaxx static targets to fire at: no need to fire at moving ones. Providing people don't overdose themselves there is little harm other than levels of side effect similar to many other regularly consumed medical drugs. There might be a placebo effect.



I do agree with you, really - but I also think that fact that fervent belief in what we know as 'horse wormer', 'sheep wormer' and the like makes the devotion of anti-vaxxers an even easier target to poke fun at. 
Ivermectin is a very important medical and veterinary pharmaceutical, which I hope I have made clear, but I'm sorry, it is a black comedy that desperate unvaccinated people, sometimes _in extremis, _should be demanding, and buying up, _horse wormer_ in such quantities as to apparently affect availability for its approved - and very necessary - use, at least in some areas. 
I can only hope - for their own wellbeing - that they are buying the 'right' type of wormer - and not some of the others which are used for animals, and that they can do the fairly simple maths to work out a non-dangerous dosage for themselves. 

I actually think that poking fun directly at anti-vaxxers is counter-productive - we should be inviting them to explain themselves (which IME they can't), asking them rational questions (to which IME they can't give rational answers) and providing them with very simple and irrefutable logical answers and reasons _why - _I've done this previously elsewhere on t'interwebz and by gum it's like swimming through treacle and I have little patience for it any more! Lizards and tunnels ...


----------



## Johnno260 (31 Aug 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I do agree with you, really - but I also think that fact that fervent belief in what we know as 'horse wormer', 'sheep wormer' and the like makes the devotion of anti-vaxxers an even easier target to poke fun at.
> Ivermectin is a very important medical and veterinary pharmaceutical, which I hope I have made clear, but I'm sorry, it is a black comedy that desperate unvaccinated people, sometimes _in extremis, _should be demanding, and buying up, _horse wormer_ in such quantities as to apparently affect availability for its approved - and very necessary - use, at least in some areas.
> I can only hope - for their own wellbeing - that they are buying the 'right' type of wormer - and not some of the others which are used for animals, and that they can do the fairly simple maths to work out a non-dangerous dosage for themselves.
> 
> I actually think that poking fun directly at anti-vaxxers is counter-productive - we should be inviting them to explain themselves (which IME they can't), asking them rational questions (to which IME they can't give rational answers) and providing them with very simple and irrefutable logical answers and reasons _why - _I've done this previously elsewhere on t'interwebz and by gum it's like swimming through treacle and I have little patience for it any more! Lizards and tunnels ...



Well it must be bad in the USA if the FDA are having to release articles about it:

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consu...-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

like you said trying to engage people and explain things can be difficult, especially when they maintain some random source on bitchute is legitimate, making claims like the vaccine is 99.9% Graphene, or it’s HIV, to its fetal material.

Many are also saying all medical trained people are nothing more than indoctrinated puppets so can’t be trusted, Kate Shemirani’s last few speeches echo this and people like her have thousands who hang off her every word.

I have used peer reviewed articles and proper resources and get called a clown and an idiot, it’s why I will miss threads like the Covid Vaccine and Outbreak it grounded sensible information in an age of misinformation.


----------



## Edwardoka (1 Sep 2021)

Ajax Bay said:


> You're all being rather negative about Ivermectin. Are there studies which show it is harmful if taken in human dose quantities? Clearly it would be sensible to use medicine designed and produced for human consumption but that can only be obtained on prescription, hence people reaching out for product designed for animals (assumed to be at lower quality and certainly low assurance).
> Are there studies which show it has prophylactic benefit (ie Norah's "preventive" (sic)) against COVID-19? None of any quality - because people have been refused funding to do any, probably because there seems no likelihood that there would be benefit (so would be difficult to get through the ethics committee (for human testing).
> There are many other 'anti-vaxx static targets to fire at: no need to fire at moving ones. Providing people don't overdose themselves there is little harm other than levels of side effect similar to many other regularly consumed medical drugs. *There might be a placebo effect.*


I heard that injecting UV light and bleach kills it dead in a minute. Under a minute. Can you believe that? We should get onto that.
Also we should investigate the properties of hydrochloroquine as a treatment.

Back here in reality where most of us live, there's a word for alternative medicine that actually works; that word is "medicine".

As for the placebo effect... the placebo effect is *significantly worse than neutral *where transmittable diseases are involved.
Someone eats a sugar pill/bleach/horse dewormer, declares "I feel better already" then goes around infecting everyone they come into contact with.

No. Just, no.

Edit: removed statistical term from a statement that does not involve quantities


----------



## slowmotion (1 Sep 2021)

I think it's got past the stage where there is any point indulging or trying to persuade them. Even after 20 months they are still fervently embracing wilful stupidity. Thin out the herd by culling yourselves....by all means, but people's patience has worn thin. Here's a recent article from the Atlantic. Grotesque irresponsibility towards your fellow citizens should come at a price.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...refusers-hesitancy-mandates-fda-delta/619918/


----------



## cookiemonster (1 Sep 2021)

http://uk.yahoo.com/news/anti-vaxxer-nonsense-rant-171033909.html


*sigh*


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> I think it's got past the stage where there is any point indulging or trying to persuade them. Even after 20 months they are still fervently embracing wilful stupidity. Thin out the herd by culling yourselves....by all means, but people's patience has worn thin. Here's a recent article from the Atlantic. Grotesque irresponsibility towards your fellow citizens should come at a price.
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...refusers-hesitancy-mandates-fda-delta/619918/



Thing is they can’t see their own behaviour, and blame vaccinated people for their woes.

From a personal perspective I was uninvited from a wedding for being vaccinated, they didn’t want to be infected via viral shedding, this same relative is now complaining daily that the epidemic is being divisive, when in fact the only person who has created divides is themselves, but as usual they take no accountability.

Also calling my wife vile names as she is a nurse hasn’t helped their case with me, they have compared her to everything from Harold Shipman to certain bad guys in WW2, they can’t see what’s wrong with their words and it’s acceptable to speak this way in their mind

It’s the same with many of these people it’s the governments fault, it’s big pharmas fault and of course it’s always Bill Gates fault.

The other theme I see is anyone with a degree of wealth seems to be somehow responsible, it comes across as petty jealousy.



cookiemonster said:


> http://uk.yahoo.com/news/anti-vaxxer-nonsense-rant-171033909.html
> *sigh*



She gets many views, and again people hang off her every word yet in many cases she gets things wrong and reads documents wrong.

I’m not saying I understand medical documentation all the time but I’m in a lucky and privileged position to have friends/family I can ask, also people here on this forum do fantastic breakdowns of information.

She falls into the category of the person I linked above who claims “skin to skin inhalation” if all else fails lie and make things up.


----------



## stowie (1 Sep 2021)

I saw my first anti-vax stickers on the way to the tube yesterday. 

I cannot remember the exact wording, but it was along the lines of "Wear a mask - Do what they say and be controlled".

I wondered who "they" were. And how wearing a mask allowed "them" to control me. If "they" are the government then they have far easier and more direct methods of control. Doing it via some psy-ops involving masks seems unnecessarily complicated and rather prone to failure.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Sep 2021)

stowie said:


> I saw my first anti-vax stickers on the way to the tube yesterday.
> 
> I cannot remember the exact wording, but it was along the lines of "Wear a mask - Do what they say and be controlled".
> 
> I wondered who "they" were. And how wearing a mask allowed "them" to control me. If "they" are the government then they have far easier and more direct methods of control. Doing it via some psy-ops involving masks seems unnecessarily complicated and rather prone to failure.



Spot on, they don't recognize convoluted and complex is usually a total failure.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (1 Sep 2021)

I did see a post somewhere where someone had some pre made stickers which said
"There was an anti mask poster here but I have covered it with this nice picture of a dog" or something like that
there was also a cat one

I was thinking ot trying to get hold of some - but I have only seen on 'plan demic' poster around here - and it peeled of the seat without too much trouble


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Sep 2021)

These are the ones people tried to hand to me, I have seen them on walls etc so I pull them down and throw them in a bin.


----------



## fossyant (1 Sep 2021)

Well yesterday, someone asking for a non-vaxxer if they needed to be in work as they were higher risk. I just smiled. Fark off, get into work, you don't believe in vax, so why should you be worried about a bug that doesn't exist !  

There will, unfortunately, be quite a few less of them around in the next 12 months. I say 'unfortunately' as it's not a nice way to die, getting covid, or poisoning yourself.


----------



## Edwardoka (1 Sep 2021)

fossyant said:


> Well yesterday, someone asking for a non-vaxxer if they needed to be in work as they were higher risk. I just smiled. Fark off, get into work, you don't believe in vax, so why should you be worried about a bug that doesn't exist !
> 
> There will, unfortunately, be quite a few less of them around in the next 12 months. I say 'unfortunately' as it's not a nice way to die, getting covid, or poisoning yourself.


It's quite sad really, recently there's been several prominent anti-vax covid truthers catching it and then dying.

If, prior to dying, they recant, they are cast into the abyss and disowned by the anti-vax covid truther movement.

If they don't recant, the true believers instead pivot to believing that there's a very sinister and wide-ranging conspiracy to kill all the prominent anti-vax covid truthers, rather than it being them dying of a highly transmissable disease that has been running rampant for a year and a half now.

At some point, you'd think that a glimmer of introspection would occur, or that Occam's Razor would kick in, but no.

I genuinely fear what the future holds. Not for me, but for my nieces and nephew. It really does feel like we're entering a dark age.


----------



## Johnno260 (1 Sep 2021)

fossyant said:


> Well yesterday, someone asking for a non-vaxxer if they needed to be in work as they were higher risk. I just smiled. Fark off, get into work, you don't believe in vax, so why should you be worried about a bug that doesn't exist !
> 
> There will, unfortunately, be quite a few less of them around in the next 12 months. I say 'unfortunately' as it's not a nice way to die, getting covid, or poisoning yourself.



Pretty much drowning is how it's been described to me from medical friends, they said it's not a nice way to go by any stretch of the imagination.

Taking out the symptoms survivors will have from long Covid as well, which can be utterly destructive.



Edwardoka said:


> It's quite sad really, recently there's been several prominent anti-vax covid truthers catching it and then dying.
> 
> If, prior to dying, they recant, they are cast into the abyss and disowned by the anti-vax covid truther movement.
> 
> ...



I have seen people refer to covid deniers who died as crisis actors, a recent example is a poor guy called Marcus Birks, as he had a IMDB profile it was claimed he was an actor, when in fact all the things listed were reality TV shows mainly Bad Lads Army and TV game shows, it just shows the lengths and dishonesty these people will stoop to.


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

So anti vax are now calling vaccinated or pro vaccination “pro tox”

They still haven’t put the pieces together yet, the hard data is against them but it doesn’t fit their narrative.


----------



## newfhouse (3 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> So anti vax are now calling vaccinated or pro vaccination “pro tox”
> 
> They still haven’t put the pieces together yet, the hard data is against them but it doesn’t fit their narrative.
> View attachment 607341



That has to be parody, surely.


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

newfhouse said:


> That has to be parody, surely.



I would hope so, but this was a tweet that was found on my other interest which is astronomy it has a sub section which de-bunks flat earth and other conspiracies.

If you want me to be honest I have seen more outlandish claims than this from family members, the classic was the Queen is a hologram.

Lots of 9/11 denial is cropping up as well sadly due to the upcoming 20th anniversary of the tragedy.


----------



## newfhouse (3 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I would hope so


It really is hard to tell sometimes. That's the appeal of a community like CC, over time you develop an instinct about the various characters and can usually (but not always!) react appropriately to what is said.


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

newfhouse said:


> It really is hard to tell sometimes. That's the appeal of a community like CC, over time you develop an instinct about the various characters and can usually (but not always!) react appropriately to what is said.



I'm currently debating an anti vax who says asbestosis is a conspiracy, his one metric for it being false is he worked with asbestos and never got ill, while ignoring the 5000+ deaths a year in the UK from it.

These people are in a world of their own I think.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (3 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> the Queen is a hologram.



Bullshit. 

She's an AI avatar.


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> She's an AI avatar.



AI Avatar controlled by a Lizard person?


----------



## KnittyNorah (3 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> AI Avatar controlled by a Lizard person?


Nonsense - she IS a lizard person; she emerged, fully formed and ready-trained, from the tunnels used by the Illuminati to secretly criss-cross Blackpool.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (3 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Nonsense - she IS a lizard person; she emerged, fully formed and ready-trained, from the tunnels used by the Illuminati to secretly criss-cross Blackpool.


Ahhhh!!!

Yes - now I understand
The Illuminati secretly control Blackpool - hence the Illuminations!!!!

Of Course

How could I have lived so long and not realised!!!!!!


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Ahhhh!!!
> 
> Yes - now I understand
> The Illuminati secretly control Blackpool - hence the Illuminations!!!!
> ...



ahhh so we enlightened and illuminated you! our work here is done!


----------



## Bonefish Blues (3 Sep 2021)

I had that Queen on my tram the other day.


----------



## Jody (3 Sep 2021)

I went to see a friend yesterday who I haven't seen for a while. The subject moved on to CV and how he isn't allowed on site unless vaccinated, which prompted the question about his vaccine status. Apparently it's still too early for him to have it and he is seeing how things pan out. He's in his mid 40's and hasn't got the best of respiratory systems. 

The conversation soon moved onto the Royals, Epstein the CIA and a few other "theories" of his. 

It's like banging your head against a brick wall


----------



## KnittyNorah (3 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Ahhhh!!!
> 
> Yes - now I understand
> The Illuminati secretly control Blackpool - hence the Illuminations!!!!
> ...



Oh dear, have you _really _only just realised? I thought you would have understood the clear significance of many of the designs, especially their interplay with the parallel tramlines on which run the famous 'Blackpool Trams' (what a clever way to disguise ley lines in full sight!) and I am surprised that so few people realise the _direct connection_ between the new multi-million pound 'tram terminus' (well that's what they like to call it, haha) and Glastonbury Tor. It is a demonstration of ley lines _in action, _transferring stored power for safekeeping for use by those who would have those they think of as the sheep, kept within their thrall.

Ho Hum YAWN.


----------



## C R (3 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Oh dear, have you _really _only just realised? I thought you would have understood the clear significance of many of the designs, especially their interplay with the parallel tramlines on which run the famous 'Blackpool Trams' (what a clever way to disguise ley lines in full sight!) and I am surprised that so few people realise the _direct connection_ between the new multi-million pound 'tram terminus' (well that's what they like to call it, haha) and Glastonbury Tor. It is a demonstration of ley lines _in action, _transferring stored power for safekeeping for use by those who would have those they think of as the sheep, and in their thrall.
> 
> Ho Hum YAWN.


Do you have a newsletter I could subscribe to?


----------



## KnittyNorah (3 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> Do you have a newsletter I could subscribe to?



Yes but it'll cost you - such nuggets of information don't come cheap! I wonder what that Shemirani woman's going rate is?

Seriously, SOMEONE is making big money out of all these anti-vaxxers. If it wouldn't make me despise myself so much, I'd be tempted to have a go myself trying to convince people of kr@p, just to demonstrate how easy it is.


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Yes but it'll cost you - such nuggets of information don't come cheap! I wonder what that Shemirani woman's going rate is?
> 
> Seriously, SOMEONE is making big money out of all these anti-vaxxers. If it wouldn't make me despise myself so much, I'd be tempted to have a go myself trying to convince people of kr@p, just to demonstrate how easy it is.



Last time I checked her legal fee go fund me was up near 60k


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (3 Sep 2021)

Does this newsletter come with special offers for tin foil hats???


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Does this newsletter come with special offers for tin foil hats???



You get a full set of tinfoil armour


----------



## Profpointy (3 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> You get a full set of tinfoil armour
> View attachment 607378



To be fair that should stop low energy alpha and beta radiation


----------



## C R (3 Sep 2021)

Profpointy said:


> To be fair that should stop low energy alpha and beta radiation


It also stops the infrared radiation from the wearer, so it reduces the chance of personalised heat signature tracking by the lizard people. Anyone interested in any more insights dm me for details, I accept cc payment as well as direct debit.


----------



## Johnno260 (3 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> It also stops the infrared radiation from the wearer, so it reduces the chance of personalised heat signature tracking by the lizard people. Anyone interested in any more insights dm me for details, I accept cc payment as well as direct debit.



So Arnie should’ve just used this in Predator?


----------



## KnittyNorah (3 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Does this newsletter come with special offers for tin foil hats???



No - even better, it comes with a multi-use, multi-size pattern for tinfoil linings for your and your family's entire wardrobe - AND as a bonus extra, a tinfoil lining for your dog's coat and a similar cover for your budgie's cage. This means that you can buy your tinfoil from any trusted source - we recommend FoilsRUz who will deliver to your door by guaranteed unvaccinated drivers - and stay safely at home until all the linings are made!

This pattern is available for a small, very affordable, cost if you are not already a subscriber to my newsletter. I accept credit card, debit card, standing order, direct debit, BACS transfers, Paypal, Google Pay, Apple Pay, cheques, postal orders, bitcoin and cash-in-a-brown-paper-envelope.


----------



## C R (3 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> No - even better, it comes with a multi-use, multi-size pattern for tinfoil linings for your and your family's entire wardrobe - AND as a bonus extra, a tinfoil lining for your dog's coat and a similar cover for your budgie's cage. This means that you can buy your tinfoil from any trusted source - we recommend FoilsRUz who will deliver to your door by guaranteed unvaccinated drivers - and stay safely at home until all the linings are made!


You need to include more spilling and grammer errors to look the part.


----------



## Edwardoka (3 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> It also stops the infrared radiation from the wearer, so it reduces the chance of personalised heat signature tracking by the lizard people. Anyone interested in any more insights dm me for details, I accept cc payment as well as direct debit.


Nice try to get my card and bank details, but we all know you only take western union or crypto. I know, it's not because no reputable payment processor will do business with you, you just haven't gotten round to it yet.


----------



## C R (4 Sep 2021)

Some californian antivaxxer posted a whine in the general cycling forum about a bike shop that required them to wear a mask. Just now I saw this, and thought it was rather suited, but that thread seems gone, so I will leave it here.


----------



## shep (4 Sep 2021)

I came across a small anti vax demonstration on Sunday last week, unfortunately for them they chose to set up on a small Central reservation on the main route from Wolves football ground on matchday where we had just been mugged 1-0 by Man Utd. 

As you can imagine, being ascended on by 1000's of p****d up angry footy fans didn't help their cause, a few altercations later they quickly disappeared. 

That's the only real contact I've had with any, I don't do Twitter, only have people I personally know on FB and to be honest apart from on here stick to conversation with real people. 

I think that's why I keep getting banned on here because I say it how I see it and people don't like that.


----------



## Johnno260 (4 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> I came across a small anti vax demonstration on Sunday last week, unfortunately for them they chose to set up on a small Central reservation on the main route from Wolves football ground on matchday where we had just been mugged 1-0 by Man Utd.
> 
> As you can imagine, being ascended on by 1000's of p****d up angry footy fans didn't help their cause, a few altercations later they quickly disappeared.
> 
> ...



So they “researched” a great spot and day to set up camp! haha

It’s almost as good as when they thought they were breaking into the BBC HQ, but it was the building they vacated in 2013.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Sep 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/natsknapp/status/1434560952448471045?s=21


Seems people lost a sense of humour.


----------



## Fab Foodie (6 Sep 2021)

Scary on several levels….
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ctin-covid-coronavirus?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The USA is one farked-up country….


----------



## captain nemo1701 (6 Sep 2021)

I've noticed anti-vax stickers appearing on bus stops here in Bristol, beginning usually with 'if the vaccine works then why...(Insert dubious science/co-incidence). Dutifully removing them when I spot 'em.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Sep 2021)

captain nemo1701 said:


> I've noticed anti-vax stickers appearing on bus stops ...



I've noticed them on bus-stops and 'innocent' noticeboards (in the park, outside the church etc) for a while now. I used to peel them off but they're using a much stronger glue now, at least round here. However, in the park recently I noticed that someone had made them illegible by using a Sharpie all over them. I must start taking one out with me ...


----------



## Ajax Bay (6 Sep 2021)

Pfiverday?


----------



## Milzy (6 Sep 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Scary on several levels….
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ctin-covid-coronavirus?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
> 
> The USA is one farked-up country….


Yeah but the conspiracy guys will tell you don’t listen to that guardian as it’s deep state.

what do you think of this one then?


----------



## Ajax Bay (6 Sep 2021)

Well to be fair the Calpol and hay fever medication thing is a bit weird too. But I'm not a teacher (and teachers are no' medics) - and I'm sure there's 'risk reduction' in the mix, somewhere.


----------



## Archie_tect (6 Sep 2021)

Presumably the number of anti-vaxxers is slowly reducing.


----------



## captain nemo1701 (6 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Yeah but the conspiracy guys will tell you don’t listen to that guardian as it’s deep state.
> 
> what do you think of this one then?


It's rubbish - you'd need consent for a jab too. Plus the vaccinne isn't 'experimental', which is just propaganda by the anti-vaxxers designed to scare people.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Sep 2021)

captain nemo1701 said:


> It's rubbish - you'd need consent for a jab too. Plus the vaccinne isn't 'experimental', which is just propaganda by the anti-vaxxers designed to scare people.



That's something I find totally contradictory with part of their argument, they claim the state is trying to control them with fear, yet their whole argument is based on total fear mongering.

They can't even see the irony either.


----------



## LCpl Boiled Egg (6 Sep 2021)

captain nemo1701 said:


> I've noticed anti-vax stickers appearing on bus stops here in Bristol, beginning usually with 'if the vaccine works then why...(Insert dubious science/co-incidence). Dutifully removing them when I spot 'em.



I also carry a black sharpie for the ones that don't peel off easily.


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Sep 2021)

Weirdest thing about that is the kid actually looking at the needle - I carefully study the wall on the far side on the relevant arm.


----------



## vickster (6 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Yeah but the conspiracy guys will tell you don’t listen to that guardian as it’s deep state.
> 
> what do you think of this one then?


Utter load of shite obviously 

Which guardian... of the galaxy? But they ain't real


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## Milzy (6 Sep 2021)

Hey this is supposed to be hard evidence that it is experimental after all


----------



## roubaixtuesday (6 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Hey this is supposed to be hard evidence that it is experimental after all
> View attachment 607975



What's your point?

Many, perhaps most, medicines are approved on the basis of trials which continue beyond registration. 

Many, perhaps most medicines have new studies started after registration.


----------



## Saluki (6 Sep 2021)

Spoke to one today.
No vaccines, refuses to wear a mask or take distancing precautions. Would I care to go on a date with him? 
Let me think....... No.


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Sep 2021)

I administer a forum on a completely different matter/interest. It is _very _international as it is a very niche interest using equipment that is in the main no longer made, so most of us are buying and using - as well as maintaining and repairing - machinery that is simple to complex - and anything from 150 to 20-odd years old. 

There has been virtually no mention of anti-vax or conspiracy theories except in the most light-hearted and brief ways; the general impression is of pro-vax and pro-mask which, as the great majority of us on the forum are 'of a certain age', both male and female, seems to be about right for the demographic. 
The subject simply wouldn't come up in on-topic discussions, anyway, and we have a formal policy of not talking politics or religion in the off-topic chat sections, except brief, in-passing mentions, or if someone genuinely asks for an explanation of something that is common practice in the other member's country but not in their own. 

Yesterday my nice group's peace was disrupted by a member describing how she likes to taunt mask wearers in the supermarket - compounded by commands to DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH! I think lots of us on the forum were shocked by her sudden interjection into a light-hearted off-topic discussion of 'gassy foodstuffs'! Talk about 'hot air'!

Anyway she has been told the facts as they are and if it happens again she will be banned.


----------



## Milzy (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> What's your point?
> 
> Many, perhaps most, medicines are approved on the basis of trials which continue beyond registration.
> 
> Many, perhaps most medicines have new studies started after registration.


 what’s the emergency to get these out then??.. oh yeah vXc pass and totalitarianism.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> what’s the emergency to get these out then??.. oh yeah vXc pass and totalitarianism.



I have no idea what point you're trying to make, beyond alluding to some ill defined suspicion of a controlling conspiracy. 

Perhaps lay it out rather than Just Asking Questions might help.


----------



## Milzy (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I have no idea what point you're trying to make, beyond alluding to some ill defined suspicion of a controlling conspiracy.
> 
> Perhaps lay it out rather than Just Asking Questions might help.


I’m just trying to find someone clever enough to debunk the ridiculous said theory going around. They are trying to prove to us but failing. We try to prove to them but fail. It just goes on and on like saying Allah is the one true God to a Catholic.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> I’m just trying to find someone clever enough to debunk the ridiculous said theory going around. They are trying to prove to us but failing. We try to prove to them but fail. It just goes on and on like saying Allah is the one true God to a Catholic.



Ah, ok, so you're playing the rôle of an anti vaxxer?

That wasn't evident, sorry. 

You can't debunk their theories, they're not based on fact.


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Sep 2021)

I know I'm not the only one here who peels off anti-vax and conspiracy-theory posters and labels when I see them.
I saw this today on the bbc news website - a report and warning about anti-mask posters with razor blades on the back.
The first report was back in July, by someone who apparently thought rumours of razorblades behind anti-mask posters were themselves part of some sort of weird conspiracy theory.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (9 Sep 2021)

Checked out the local Facebook group

It's been a months or so since I had a look - seems to have attracted a load of anti-vax and '5G is killing us' types
including one 'person' who reckons the virus was made by aliens in Area 54 (???) and released by the AMericans to interact with the 5g

WTF!!


----------



## icowden (9 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Yeah but the conspiracy guys will tell you don’t listen to that guardian as it’s deep state.
> what do you think of this one then?



I'll take this. Schools administer vaccinations with consent. Just as they do for calpol, and hay fever medication. Any medicines that a child takes are usually kept in the school office at primary. At secondary I think they are trusted a little bit more.

I'd say that this "meme" is junk from America.

Also note that it refers to the vaccine as "experimental". It isn't. It was researched, tested and approved. It is no more experimental than any other vaccine. There are some studies that cannot yet be done such as long term risk measurement, but very stringent levels of testing were carried out.

However when you circulate this misinformation intending that other human beings will suffer and die as a result of believing it - then you know something is seriously wrong with the person posting it.


----------



## icowden (9 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Hey this is supposed to be hard evidence that it is experimental after all



And yet that is purporting to be from a US website. If you search that site you will find that the study doesn't exist. 
Even if it did, it is not unusual to run more studies on a virus or its treatment.

As it is, it is made up. Stop believing rubbish.

If you have any doubt that Covid is real, ask a doctor or nurse. They are the ones treating it, and trying to stop people who could have helped themselves, from dying.


----------



## roubaixtuesday (9 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> If you search that site you will find that the study doesn't exist



Google reveals

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Of course, you're right in everything else.


----------



## icowden (10 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Google reveals
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728
> Of course, you're right in everything else.



Nice find. Weirdly when you use the site search on the title none of the official title comes up!
Of course if you search for varicella or DTaP or MMR you will find currently running immunogenicity studies as well.
These vaccines are also not experimental.


----------



## Mugshot (14 Sep 2021)




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## C R (14 Sep 2021)

Mugshot said:


> View attachment 609170


----------



## winjim (14 Sep 2021)

The world has taken even more of a turn for the peculiar. Now there's beef between Boris Johnson, Prof Whitty and Nicki Minaj because of vaccination and somebody's alleged swollen testicles.


Edit: linky

https://www.theguardian.com/society...th-spreaders-ashamed-chris-whitty-nicki-minaj


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> The world has taken even more of a turn for the peculiar. Now there's beef between Boris Johnson, Prof Whitty and Nicki Minaj because of vaccination and somebody's alleged swollen testicles.



Is that Buster Gonads come out of retirement?


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## icowden (14 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Is that Buster Gonads come out of retirement?



Oh yes -


View: https://twitter.com/vizcomic/status/1437713574600888322?s=20


----------



## Mugshot (18 Sep 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/taysump/status/1438924390520041475?s=20


----------



## Johnno260 (18 Sep 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/theondrakguy/status/1439245258299224069?s=21


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## MartinQ (18 Sep 2021)

Mugshot said:


> View attachment 609170



Ahh the fake protestor (but still funny)
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/09...e-in-support-of-science-at-hospital-protests/


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## ebikeerwidnes (18 Sep 2021)

MartinQ said:


> Ahh the fake protestor (but still funny)
> https://toronto.citynews.ca/2021/09...e-in-support-of-science-at-hospital-protests/


Problem with that is how do you tell he is anti anti and not just anti

The stupidity is strong on the anti-vax side

I worry that a lot of them will be saying "Yea Brother" to him and telling people "Look there is another of our people"


----------



## MartinQ (18 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Problem with that is how do you tell he is anti anti and not just anti
> 
> The stupidity is strong on the anti-vax side
> 
> I worry that a lot of them will be saying "Yea Brother" to him and telling people "Look there is another of our people"



I guess the reverse of the sign was a give away for me, but you do your own research ...


----------



## Svendo (19 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> View: https://twitter.com/theondrakguy/status/1439245258299224069?s=21




James Randi used to debunk ‘Magnetic Body’ types with the simple application of talcum powder.

Article and Video here

So the answer to the lady is “yes, it’s warm and you’re sweaty.”


----------



## Milzy (19 Sep 2021)

Why do healthy children need a vaccine for something that’s about 0.1% dangerous to them? 
Why have they taken the choice away from their parents?


----------



## markemark (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Why do healthy children need a vaccine for something that’s about 0.1% dangerous to them?
> Why have they taken the choice away from their parents?


Because without it they become dangerous to more vulnerable people - their grand parents, older teachers, imunocomprised fellow classmates etc.


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## Milzy (19 Sep 2021)

markemark said:


> Because without it they become dangerous to more vulnerable people - their grand parents, older teachers, imunocomprised fellow classmates etc.


I don’t understand how. They can still spread it around even after double jabs. Also these vulnerable people should already be vaccinated.


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Why do healthy children need a vaccine for something that’s about 0.1% dangerous to them?
> Why have they taken the choice away from their parents?


I’m on the fence with this , my youngest is 15, his choice would be to have it . I cannot stop him I can advise him. However the disruption in schools and those effected in the same house holds of a positive case also need to be considered.
Still an awful lot if young adults not bothering with the vaccine. My wife’s friends husband is a deputy manager in a jewellers shop . It’s been shut for 10 days due to the young folks bringing COVID into it. He was not very well even after two jags . Guess what they now all feel guilty as f……. For making him ill.
So if it stops and/or cuts down the infection rate effects then that’s a good thing right ?


----------



## Milzy (19 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’m on the fence with this , my youngest is 15, his choice would be to have it . I cannot stop him I can advise him. However the disruption in schools and those effected in the same house holds of a positive case also need to be considered.
> Still an awful lot if young adults not bothering with the vaccine. My wife’s friends husband is a deputy manager in a jewellers shop . It’s been shut for 10 days due to the young folks bringing COVID into it. He was not very well even after two jags . Guess what they now all feel guilty as f……. For making him ill.
> So if it stops and/or cuts down the infection rate effects then that’s a good thing right ?


I’m no conspiracy theorist but I’m very open minded. You’d have thought the government would have had a major education programme on this but it feels like they’re just using coercive behaviour. The pharma companies are making billions for nothing IMO.


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> I’m no conspiracy theorist but I’m very open minded. You’d have thought the government would have had a major education programme on this but it feels like they’re just using coercive behaviour. The pharma companies are making billions for nothing IMO.


Slowly but surely we are all going back to a new normal… hence boosters and then that’s it ! We are all going to get infected at some point. I’m amazed out youngest hasn’t ? Good few of his pals have all tested positive. Yet his regular LFT are all neg. 
big pharma is making billions! Absolutely


----------



## markemark (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> I don’t understand how. They can still spread it around even after double jabs. Also these vulnerable people should already be vaccinated.


It reduces the risk. Wearing a seatbelt doesn’t stop you dying but it reduces the risk. Wearing a condom doesn’t stop you getting pregnant but it reduces the risk. Having the vaccine doesn’t stop you catching covid but it reduces the chances.


----------



## KnittyNorah (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> Why have they taken the choice away from their parents?


Who is 'they', and what choice has been taken away from whose parents? 
Covid vaccination is NOT compulsory for children - at least not in this country - and there are no plans to make it so.


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## Milzy (19 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Who is 'they', and what choice has been taken away from whose parents?
> Covid vaccination is NOT compulsory for children - at least not in this country - and there are no plans to make it so.


You know who they are. And it’s not compulsory but the children can have their choice even if the parents don’t want them to have it


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> I don’t understand how. They can still spread it around even after double jabs. Also these vulnerable people should already be vaccinated.



Double jabs significantly reduces the likelihood someone will become infectious even if they do catch it. If they do become infectious it reduces the period of time they are infectious.

Not every vulnerable person can have the vaccine and not every vulnerable person generates good immunity from two jabs. Their vulnerability might be a weak / suppressed immune system.


----------



## KnittyNorah (19 Sep 2021)

Milzy said:


> You know who they are. And it’s not compulsory but the children can have their choice even if the parents don’t want them to have it


No I don't know who 'they' are. Please tell me. 
And the children can have their choice when they are old enough to make informed decisions about such things, go to the doctor alone and so on. 
It is very, _very_ far from compulsory. 
If a child doesn't want the same as its parents want for it, then past a certain age and level of reasoning/understanding, the child's wishes must be listened to alongside the parents. 
No health professional who wishes to stay registered for their profession is going to hold down a teenager who doesn't want the vaccine to jab the kid on the instructions of the parent, and a teenager who presents themselves eagerly for vaccination will not be sent away with a flea in their ear because their parents say they can't have it.
I am well over 75 years old and when I was a teenager our GP was perfectly happy to see me alone and let me make decisions about my own health, such as were available 'back in the day'. This is nothing new.


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## neil_merseyside (19 Sep 2021)

All the parents that don't want their kids to have a jab are pretty much ensuring the kids will actually insist they have it, or so I'd have thought...


----------



## C R (21 Sep 2021)

German covid sceptic shoots dead a petrol station attendant who had asked him to wear a mask as per the rules.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-worker-killed-in-germany-after-face-mask-row


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> German covid sceptic shoots dead a petrol station attendant who had asked him to wear a mask as per the rules.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-worker-killed-in-germany-after-face-mask-row



This is a worry I have here, but with violence directed at a healthcare worker.


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## KnittyNorah (21 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> This is a worry I have here, but with violence directed at a healthcare worker.


Agreed - I have never been so glad to be retired - and to have been retired so long as to have given up all my registrations! 
There has been plenty of verbal violence directed at healthcare workers all over the world including here, but for this sort of thing to happen in Germany is getting very close to home ...


----------



## mjr (21 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I know I'm not the only one here who peels off anti-vax and conspiracy-theory posters and labels when I see them.
> I saw this today on the bbc news website - a report and warning about anti-mask posters with razor blades on the back.


That old chestnut returns every time there is a disinformation campaign. I've been warned several times over several topics, kept removing them and still yet to find any razor blades. It's just as well I buy my own to shave, as I'd have a long beard before I find a free one on a poster!

If you pull and hold a high edge, and don't slide your fingers up the back (why would you?), then the risk seems minimal. Just look at the back of it as or after you remove it and not just try to fold or scrunch it, which seems to have been Layla Stokes's mistake. Or just black pen the farker, as mentioned.

And let's be realistic: it would need a thicker and better-quality sticker than most (or laminated like the one report from Cardiff) for a blade not to be obvious, especially when stuck to a rounded signpost or lamppost.

I think it is so rare that the relentless pumping of the story is itself disinformation, mostly by anti-vaxxers trying to discourage removal of their lies. I think it was shared here honestly but it's still horse shoot.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Sep 2021)

I have a sharpie and just colour over any anti vax flyers/stickers.


----------



## C R (21 Sep 2021)

Somewhat macabre, so open at your own risk, this site tracks news of antivaxxers/antimaskers/deniers who are seriously ill, dying, or dead from covid, mostly US, but some from Europe too
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/


----------



## lazybloke (21 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> Somewhat macabre, so open at your own risk, this site tracks news of antivaxxers/antimaskers/deniers who are seriously ill, dying, or dead from covid, mostly US, but some from Europe too
> https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/



Apparently I don't have a heart, as I've been incapable of finding any sympathy for those featured in the link.

Supporters of Luis Ewing say he's detained in intensive care "against his will" FFS.
Etc etc


----------



## KnittyNorah (21 Sep 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Supporters of Luis Ewing say he's detained in intensive care "against his will" FFS.



Probably a good thing that I let all my registrations lapse as I'd've been be sorely tempted to say, ok unplug him and let him go off home under his own steam ...BYEEEEEEEE!!! 

 < that's me


----------



## gzoom (21 Sep 2021)

Had my first booster/third dosage today. Am not entirely sure how/why any one still wouldn't want the vaccine. 

Having spent the best part of Jan-March this year watching pretty helplessness people I the pleasure to look after pass away from COVID, the vaccines have made a massive difference to outcomes.

A few weekends ago I gave Tocilizumab to three people whom had been vaccinated but still got COVID, followed by conversations with ITU and their respective families. Amazingly all of them pulled through without the need for ITU (unlike in Jan-March).

Its looking like the virus is almost certainly going to stay, but if the vaccine becomes rolled into one with the Flu jab than life can carry on as normal to a large degree.

I've some how have made this long without even needing a PCR COVID test despite almost 100% certain exposure to the virus in reasonable concentrations during the last 18 months. I *might* an asymptomatic carrier, or just not be affected badly, but I've seen enough of what this virus can do to the unvaccinated, and I'll happily have as many booster jabs from any company at any interval for the foresable future.


----------



## MartinQ (22 Sep 2021)

To answer the original question, they appear to be hassling kids/parents at our kids school
https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/19598255.anti-vaccination-campaigners-approach-wirral-schoolkids/
I can partailly understand people not getting vaccinated, but ffs this isnt on.


----------



## newfhouse (22 Sep 2021)

I rode through the middle of a protest outside a primary school beside the A23 last week. There were groups of people on both sides of the road with “Stop experimenting on our kids” and similar banners. A lot of car horns were honked as they passed but I have no way of knowing if it was agreement or derision.

I pity the kids with parents that took part.


----------



## MartinQ (22 Sep 2021)

newfhouse said:


> I rode through the middle of a protest outside a primary school beside the A23 last week. There were groups of people on both sides of the road with “Stop experimenting on our kids” and similar banners. A lot of car horns were honked as they passed but I have no way of knowing if it was agreement or derision.
> 
> I pity the kids with parents that took part.



Ive suggested ours make the v sign to show they support vaccination .
Well something like that ...


----------



## newfhouse (22 Sep 2021)

MartinQ said:


> Ive suggested ours make the v sign to show they support vaccination .
> Well something like that ...


I used two fingers to signify that I’ve had two jabs.


----------



## MartinQ (22 Sep 2021)

newfhouse said:


> I used two fingers to signify that I’ve had two jabs.



Only 1 jab for kids ... middle finger comes to mind.


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## newfhouse (22 Sep 2021)

MartinQ said:


> Only 1 jab for kids ... middle finger comes to mind.


It’s not even one jab for primary school ages, so maybe a zero shape made with thumb and fingers is most appropriate, perhaps moved to and fro to enhance visibility..


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Sep 2021)




----------



## C R (28 Sep 2021)

I saw this earlier, apparently antivaxxers are booking vaccination appointments and not turning up, hoping that vaccines will be wasted.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/facebook-users-ploy-waste-thousands-vaccines-050313429.html


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> View attachment 611332



Worst photoshop ever


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (28 Sep 2021)

MartinQ said:


> To answer the original question, they appear to be hassling kids/parents at our kids school
> https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/19598255.anti-vaccination-campaigners-approach-wirral-schoolkids/
> I can partailly understand people not getting vaccinated, but ffs this isnt on.


I grew up around there
I go onto the paper's website at time to keep up with what is happening

I am horriifed about how some moron conspiracy theorists are hijacking the comments section

it even went into total full on homophobia anti LGBT rubbish based on $whatever

I have just gone though and reported a load of comments

hopefully it will help


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (28 Sep 2021)

C R said:


> I saw this earlier, apparently antivaxxers are booking vaccination appointments and not turning up, hoping that vaccines will be wasted.
> https://au.news.yahoo.com/facebook-users-ploy-waste-thousands-vaccines-050313429.html


Yeah - so you have your research and have told others to 'do your own research'
so they have
and have booked an appointment to get a vaccine

but NOOOOOOOO

I want to take your appointment and waste the vaccine

so - hopefully from their point of view - now you cannot get a vaccine and it goes to waste

so - tell me again how you are pro choice and freedom of $anything


----------



## Johnno260 (29 Sep 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Worst photoshop ever



possibly but still it’s like the paper clip lady at Downing Street haha


----------



## winjim (29 Sep 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> possibly but still it’s like the paper clip lady at Downing Street haha


At least paperclips are actually magnetic though.


----------



## Johnno260 (29 Sep 2021)

winjim said:


> At least paperclips are actually magnetic though.



haha yup but that’s the only thing she got correct.


----------



## mjr (29 Sep 2021)

Antivaxxers sending hoax NHS emails to con schools into distributing their lies https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-58713266

How low will they go?


----------



## DCBassman (29 Sep 2021)

Lucky for anti-vaxxers that Sars-Cov-2 is not particularly virulent. There'd not be many of them left if this was as bad as Sars-Cov-1...


----------



## KnittyNorah (29 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> How low will they go?



Very clearly, they'll go right to the bottom of the barrel and out through the holes in the bottom. They'll go as low as they can, and if they go so low as to attract the attention of the law enforcement authorities in a serious, ie imprisonable, way, they'll cry 'martyrdom' for as loud and as long as they can. 
I am loathe to say it, but perhaps some of the bizarre punishments used for anti-maskers, quarantine breakers and covid deniers in Indonesia might have a salutary effect on a few of our home-grown deniers ...


----------



## KnittyNorah (29 Sep 2021)

I think another of the issues is that the 'big names' of the anti-vaxxers/maskers, ivermectin promoters etc etc must clearly be being funded - and I would like to know BY WHOM ...


----------



## MartinQ (29 Sep 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I think another of the issues is that the 'big names' of the anti-vaxxers/maskers, ivermectin promoters etc etc must clearly be being funded - and I would like to know BY WHOM ...



Part of it is apparently Russian / influencers
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-58167339
But a bit like some of the original fake news bloggers, some will be just interested in making money from clicks/merchandise ....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/the_godfather_of_fake_news


----------



## fossyant (30 Sep 2021)

Another friend of mine knows how bad this virus is. Caught it October 20, hospitalised 1st November, and didn't come out until March 21. Put in a coma, 30 days high dependency, 45 days Intensive Care.

He's still not well and is on oxygen therapy 18 hours a day. He's 51.


----------



## Johnno260 (4 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> Another friend of mine knows how bad this virus is. Caught it October 20, hospitalised 1st November, and didn't come out until March 21. Put in a coma, 30 days high dependency, 45 days Intensive Care.
> 
> He's still not well and is on oxygen therapy 18 hours a day. He's 51.



My wife knows someone sub 40, fit and healthy, they had C19 and the initial illness was horrible yet not hospitalized, the after effects have been far far worse 1yr later and she can't walk long distances without aid and their stamina is like that of someone far older.

This illness and it's effects are so far reaching it's scary, it's why I have particular venomous attitude to denialists.


----------



## icowden (5 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> This illness and it's effects are so far reaching it's scary, it's why I have particular venomous attitude to denialists.



Anyone who works in or for any kind of health setting knows how damaging this virus is and how much has been done to reconfigure hospitals to cope with it. It makes my mind boggle that there are people who will come out with "mask wearing doesn't work" or "mask wearing makes you ill" but don't get that all medical staff are routinely wearing masks, day in and day out. So the people who are trained in medicine think it is best to wear a mask.

But no, Keith from Armchair knows better cos QAnon says they don't work and George Soros is funding them all etc
And then all the Keiths and Karens turn around ands say that we are not thinking it through


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Oct 2021)

From BBC news


> A 15-year-old girl and her mum say they were intimidated by anti-vax protesters outside a Covid vaccination centre ...
> South Wales Police said officers attended a protest in the area at 10:50 BST and remained in attendance.



Poor kid's in a _wheelchair_ FFS, a volunteer steward had to come over to check they were OK after they were surrounded by a crowd of protesters. South Wales Police said they had made no arrests ... HUMPH!

I suppose the mum didn't want to make it any more stressful for her daughter which I can understand but by golly I'd've been tempted to scream my head off 'GET AWAAAAY FROM ME!! STOP TOUCHING ME!!' and at least got those lowlife scum protesters a flea in the ear from the cops ...


----------



## Johnno260 (10 Oct 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> From BBC news
> 
> 
> Poor kid's in a _wheelchair_ FFS, a volunteer steward had to come over to check they were OK after they were surrounded by a crowd of protesters. South Wales Police said they had made no arrests ... HUMPH!
> ...



Yet these imbeciles claim they’re pro choice.

We have people handing out leaflets all the time here, If they approach me I can’t repeat what I say to them now, I did ask them how does it feel to be accountable for so many deaths and how do they wash that much blood off their hands.

I won’t be nice or entertain science/medical denial morons anymore, I don’t care if I offend them, they deserve all the grief they get.


----------



## Oldhippy (10 Oct 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> From BBC news
> 
> 
> Poor kid's in a _wheelchair_ FFS, a volunteer steward had to come over to check they were OK after they were surrounded by a crowd of protesters. South Wales Police said they had made no arrests ... HUMPH!
> ...


I would have placed their signs where it would have made them very uncomfortable walking myself.


----------



## KnittyNorah (10 Oct 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I would have placed their signs where it would have made them very uncomfortable walking myself.



But no doubt it would then be YOU who'd be 'done' for attempted assault ...  ... instead of the _real _criminals.


----------



## Johnno260 (11 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> Anyone who works in or for any kind of health setting knows how damaging this virus is and how much has been done to reconfigure hospitals to cope with it. It makes my mind boggle that there are people who will come out with "mask wearing doesn't work" or "mask wearing makes you ill" but don't get that all medical staff are routinely wearing masks, day in and day out. So the people who are trained in medicine think it is best to wear a mask.
> 
> But no, Keith from Armchair knows better cos QAnon says they don't work and George Soros is funding them all etc
> And then all the Keiths and Karens turn around ands say that we are not thinking it through



I keep seeing people say masks are dangerous, the virus doesn't exist it's never been isolated etc these people have a serious issue.

I commented on one group and got called out as British Intelligence lol they're totally paranoid.


----------



## Johnno260 (11 Oct 2021)

For those that need a laugh.


View: https://www.facebook.com/100065177645315/posts/236123201903600/?d=n


And a screenshot.






The link makes funny watching, these people are lunatics.


----------



## Milzy (11 Oct 2021)

That angers me, Jeramy Vine & his brother for that matter are both National treasures in my eyes. That is a group of full on doughnuts 🍩


----------



## Johnno260 (11 Oct 2021)

Milzy said:


> That angers me, Jeramy Vine & his brother for that matter are both National treasures in my eyes. That is a group of full on doughnuts 🍩


 
No they're the resistance! haha it goes to show the mentality of these people, and I'm sure that notice of liability is a rock hard legal document.


----------



## Oldhippy (11 Oct 2021)

They are bonkers.


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Oct 2021)

I think the events of the past several months have sent many, many people not just over the edge, but into the abyss.


----------



## Johnno260 (11 Oct 2021)

I can’t stop laughing, the rabbit hole is strong with this one.


----------



## classic33 (11 Oct 2021)

Why even give them any recognition, you're doing as good a job as they are.
Only they know what they're doing with their "messages".

Edited to replace forward slash after "messages" with a full stop


----------



## Milzy (11 Oct 2021)

People have died because of the vaccine though. The government don’t want it all over MSM for obvious reasons.


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Oct 2021)

Milzy said:


> People have died because of the vaccine though. The government don’t want it all over MSM for obvious reasons.



Yes indeed - and any death is a tragedy, especially when as a result of something that is intended to save lives. However, many many more people would have died without the vaccine, and the actual risk of any of the vaccines is miniscule, by any calculation.

To use 'people have died because of the vaccine' as an excuse for this appallingly-irresponsible and plain stupid behaviour is like saying 'Most accidents happen in the home. Leave your home NOW to stay safe!'
Simply ridiculous.

ETA stats relating to deaths as a result of the vaccine are widely available; no-one is trying to keep them secret.


----------



## Landsurfer (11 Oct 2021)

"Any death is a tragedy" ... well it’s not, is it ... lets be honest ... my mum died 3 years ago ... aged 94 .. fully in control of all her needs and desires ...it wasn’t a tragedy, she was worn out, tired after a life of war, love, more war, children and loads of happiness ....
In our society few deaths are a tragedy .. the rest are ok ...


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Oct 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> "Any death is a tragedy" ... well it’s not, is it ... lets be honest ... my mum died 3 years ago ... aged 94 .. fully in control of all her needs and desires ...it wasn’t a tragedy, she was worn out, tired after a life of war, love, more war, children and loads of happiness ....
> In our society few deaths are a tragedy .. the rest are ok ...



OK most _unexpected_ deaths are a tragedy and many others are, too. A death as a result of something that is only intended to prevent death or disease is even more of a tragedy for all involved.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

Preventable deaths are a tragedy, in the case of all the unvaccinated clogging hospitals those were preventable, and then there is the knock on effect of hospitals cancelling other appointments as they’re clogged with COVID patients who are unvaccinated.

The fact remains the Covid vaccine is safer than other vaccines released or updated since 2011, last time I checked the numbers it was 0.013% of death from the Covid vaccine compared to 0.047 from the others.


----------



## fossyant (12 Oct 2021)

This is where the anti mob latch on. Oh xx deaths after the jab. XXXXXXX deaths after Covid, not interested.


----------



## Mo1959 (12 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> This is where the anti mob latch on. Oh xx deaths after the jab. XXXXXXX deaths after Covid, not interested.


Not just deaths though. Rare I know, but there have been other problems. One local guy I know. Fit and healthy. Absolutely no history of epilepsy/seizures took a bad seizure shortly after the jab and another while in hospital. Currently not allowed to drive until they are sure he is fit to drive again. Don't suppose he will ever know for sure if it was a reaction, but sounds mighty likely.


----------



## fossyant (12 Oct 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Not just deaths though. Rare I know, but there have been other problems. One local guy I know. Fit and healthy. Absolutely no history of epilepsy/seizures took a bad seizure shortly after the jab and another while in hospital. Currently not allowed to drive until they are sure he is fit to drive again. Don't suppose he will ever know for sure if it was a reaction, but sounds mighty likely.



But what might have been the reaction of full blown covid, death ?

Mate of mine is still on 18 hours a day oxygen therapy - got covid 12 months ago.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> But what might have been the reaction of full blown covid, death ?
> 
> Mate of mine is still on 18 hours a day oxygen therapy - got covid 12 months ago.



And that's the point they always dodge, yes bad reactions will happen it's a given with any medication, even things over the shelf can have reaction Ibuprofen as an example, it's pro vs con.

Like you we know people who were fit none of the at risk category's had very mild Covid, one is in a wheel chair as they have zero stamina now their health just degraded after the inital illness, lung and heart scar tissue etc, I had a relative say it's psychological and they just need to stand up and get out the chair, RIP another relative.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (12 Oct 2021)

Saw a link on a local newspaper comments section yesterday

I decided to see what it said

Yea Gods

total full on anti vax and pretty much everything else

but very well done - decent healines and started off telling people all about the problems with the vaccine
then started explaining why
LOTS of very small writing in large paragraphs - difficult to read
then some actual data

basically an increase in deaths of children 10-16 (I think) occurring at the same time as the vaccine started to be given to 12-15 year olds
49% increase and a 700% increase in one week
percentages are wonderful
start with a small number - then it increase by a little and the percentage increase can be huge
linked to ONS documents for the real data
VERY long clinical document giving full details of the vaccine including how to store and use it
relevant data came MUCH later and showed the actual numbers were very small - but in percentages it looked amazing if you presented it right

someone had spent a lot of time getting that data to look like the vaccines were bad - I cannot believe that it was done with 'good intent' by a real believer - it was too well fiddled to look bad - must have been done deliberatly to give a false impression

I'm not mentioning the site so as to not give it any publicity or hits
and I reported the comment on the newspaper site - I checked later and it was gone - which is good

Make me even more sure that a lot of this anti-vax 'data' and articles are produced with deliberate bad intent rather than true believers trying to 'inform' people
They fiddle the data and provide link to it then lets people spread the headlines on social media

there is proper evil going on here!


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> people who were fit none of the at risk category's had very mild Covid, one is in a wheel chair as they have zero stamina now their health just degraded after the inital illness, lung and heart scar tissue etc,



I have a much younger friend who was an outdoor pursuits instructor, ran supermarathons, did Ironwoman competitions, sea swimming etc. 
Her 'bout' with C-19 was fairly early last year; it wasn't too bad in that she wasn't hospitalised at any stage; she felt utterly rotten and washed out after 3 weeks of coughing, being short of breath and ten days or so of fever, but from the time she 'should' have started to recover, she was simply 'static'. 
Concerted efforts by a very good GP and an excellent physio team saw her very pleased that by last November she had improved to the standard of being able to walk 500 yards to the village shop with only one short break to sit down and rest. Now - over a year after getting it - she can manage to walk to the village shop without the rest break. She is having hydrotherapy and cannot yet manage to swim the length of the small, warm pool in which the sessions are held. The damage done to her body by this virus appears to be permanent.

Anti-vaxxers can make of that what they will.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

@KnittyNorah That mirrors our friends symptoms they weren't hospitalized and the initial illness was mild but her health and stamina just collapsed, like you said she is happy if she can walk to the car from her house now.


----------



## Rusty Nails (12 Oct 2021)

Milzy said:


> People have died because of the vaccine though. The government don’t want it all over MSM for obvious reasons.


Any vaccine has a tiny risk of reaction, including, in the most extreme cases, death. Read the instructions in many drugs, which also have a similar risk. I had a heart operation last week in which I had to sign a form accepting death as a possibility.

What number or percentage of those having been jabbed died _because of _the vaccine, and not just died after having it? There is a difference. A reputable source would be helpful. You jab a million people and a number of those would have died anyway in that period, especially the older they are.

How does this compare with percentage of people with other jabs dying _as_ _a_ _result_, e.g. measles, flu, or people without the jab dying?

Without accurate figures for this all anti-vax stuff is just primitive mumbo-jumbo. You obviously know those accurate figures so what figures exactly do the government want to keep from us?


----------



## DCBassman (12 Oct 2021)

Vaccines work. These are as safe as any others. Why question what so demonstrably is a life-saving practice?
Much, much safer than walking out of your front door.


----------



## classic33 (12 Oct 2021)

DCBassman said:


> Vaccines work. These are as safe as any others. Why question what so demonstrably is a life-saving practice?
> Much, much safer than walking out of your front door.


What about walking in through the front door.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> What about walking in through the front door.



MUCH safer than that. The home is one of the most dangerous places to be, according to ROSPA.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> @KnittyNorah That mirrors our friends symptoms they weren't hospitalized and the initial illness was mild but her health and stamina just collapsed, like you said she is happy if she can walk to the car from her house now.



I understand that was also largely similar to what happened to the young lass I mentioned above, and why she was in a wheelchair at the age of 15 ... 

That is just one of the many tragedies of C-19 which will be with us for decades, in the same way that polio left us with folks wearing calipers and hobbling about for years. Polio also left us with the much later, and nasty, 'surprise' of post-polio syndrome which develops 15 to 40 years after the infection. I wonder what - if any - nasty surprise there might be in store for those who apparently 'recovered' from C-19?

Anti-vaxxers are, IMO, _criminals _as well as stupid.


----------



## DCBassman (12 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> What about walking in through the front door.





KnittyNorah said:


> MUCH safer than that. The home is one of the most dangerous places to be, according to ROSPA.


Perzakkly.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Anti-vaxxers are, IMO, _criminals _as well as stupid.



This I whole heartedly believe as well, if you do anything else dangerous in society and cause harm or death there is a consequence for those actions, people who have willingly spread this anti vax nonsense I feel should be accountable for their actions.

1/2 the issues with this pandemic has been people thinking being inconvenienced is being repressed, the other 1/2 is people being selfish, many people have shown their true colours during this whole episode, and not nearly enough will be held accountable.


----------



## Rusty Nails (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> This I whole heartedly believe as well, if you do anything else dangerous in society and cause harm or death there is a consequence for those actions, people who have willingly spread this anti vax nonsense I feel should be accountable for their actions.
> 
> 1/2 the issues with this pandemic has been people thinking being inconvenienced is being repressed, the other 1/2 is people being selfish, many people have shown their true colours during this whole episode, and not nearly enough will be held accountable.


And the 1/2 being stupid ... and no good at arithmetic.


----------



## icowden (12 Oct 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> And the 1/2 being stupid ... and no good at arithmetic.



Hang on sheeple...



> I just read that NINE IN TEN PEOPLE who have DIED in CAR ACCIDENTS have been VACCINATED AGAINST COVID 19... !!!
> This is what the MSM DON@T WNAT YOU TO KNOW...!


(satire)


----------



## slowmotion (12 Oct 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> MUCH safer than that. The home is one of the most dangerous places to be, according to ROSPA.


That's probably because people tend to spend a large percentage of their lives at home. Most people tend to die in a bed but it doesn't make them inherently dangerous.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

slowmotion said:


> That's probably because people tend to spend a large percentage of their lives at home. Most people tend to die in a bed but it doesn't make them inherently dangerous.



I think it’s stairs that are the killer in homes I would need to check but they’re lethal, so remove all stairs?


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

Rusty Nails said:


> And the 1/2 being stupid ... and no good at arithmetic.



I could’ve maybe split those up a little better haha. 

But there are certainly people who have miss read a lot of details and percentages, etc, I have but have asked questions when I need to.


----------



## slowmotion (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I think it’s stairs that are the killer in homes I would need to check but they’re lethal, so remove all stairs?


I'm surprised that double-decker buses are still allowed. Utterly deadly.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

slowmotion said:


> I'm surprised that double-decker buses are still allowed. Utterly deadly.



How about Audi and BMW drivers? Remove them as well while we’re at it?


----------



## Archie_tect (12 Oct 2021)

Every day the Darwin Effect reduces the remaining number of anti-vaccers.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> Every day the Darwin Effect reduces the remaining number of anti-vaccers.



No the virus has been engineered to only attack the unvaccinated, I have seen that on Twitter haha.


----------



## Landsurfer (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> No the virus has been engineered to only attack the unvaccinated, I have seen that on Twitter haha.


I wonder ... how many of those that state they are anti Covid “vaccine” .. have actually had it .... Human factors will out ........


----------



## classic33 (12 Oct 2021)

mjr said:


> That old chestnut returns every time there is a disinformation campaign. I've been warned several times over several topics, kept removing them and still yet to find any razor blades. It's just as well I buy my own to shave, as I'd have a long beard before I find a free one on a poster!
> 
> If you pull and hold a high edge, and don't slide your fingers up the back (why would you?), then the risk seems minimal. Just look at the back of it as or after you remove it and not just try to fold or scrunch it, which seems to have been Layla Stokes's mistake. Or just black pen the farker, as mentioned.
> 
> ...


Removed one from a steel lamppost just outside The Interchange, Bradford, last Wednesday. Blades were of a size that made it seem as though they had come from a multi bladed razor. 
Small, thin and very flexible. Placed on the edge of the sticker that wasn't quite stuck down, making it the obvious side to grab to remove it. I'd caught it in the centre, missing the two blades on the reverse of the sticker.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Removed one from a steel lamppost just outside The Interchange, Bradford, last Wednesday. Blades were of a size that made it seem as though they had come from a multi bladed razor.
> Small, thin and very flexible. Placed on the edge of the sticker that wasn't quite stuck down, making it the obvious side to grab to remove it. I'd caught it in the centre, missing the two blades on the reverse of the sticker.



It’s why I carry a sharpie, it’s better than getting sliced.

But to the point, it tells you a lot about the person who placed that sticker, have to essentially booby trap it with blades.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Oct 2021)

classic33 said:


> Removed one from a steel lamppost just outside The Interchange, Bradford, last Wednesday. Blades were of a size that made it seem as though they had come from a multi bladed razor.
> Small, thin and very flexible. Placed on the edge of the sticker that wasn't quite stuck down, making it the obvious side to grab to remove it. I'd caught it in the centre, missing the two blades on the reverse of the sticker.



Brain-dead criminal scum. 
Hoped you reported it to whoever seemed appropriate.


----------



## Milzy (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Preventable deaths are a tragedy, in the case of all the unvaccinated clogging hospitals those were preventable, and then there is the knock on effect of hospitals cancelling other appointments as they’re clogged with COVID patients who are unvaccinated.
> 
> The fact remains the Covid vaccine is safer than other vaccines released or updated since 2011, last time I checked the numbers it was 0.013% of death from the Covid vaccine compared to 0.047 from the others.


You may think I’m harsh but I’d enjoy taking the pee out of someone suffering but not dying of Covid when they’ve constantly refused the jab.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (12 Oct 2021)

For those saying that anti vax people are stupid and/or don;t understand numbers

I have found, over the years, that a lot of people don;t understand numbers properly

especially big numbers and how stats works
and small numbers and percentages

we just don't have experience of using numbers in these circumstances - but we use numbers all day every day with money and stuff so we think we can 'do' them

and the people who publish the anti vax base stuff know all this and use it to persuade people using 'true facts'
yea - they are true - but they are manipulated by experts to give a totlaly false impression


----------



## classic33 (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> It’s why I carry a sharpie, it’s better than getting sliced.
> 
> But to the point, it tells you a lot about the person who placed that sticker, have to essentially booby trap it with blades.


Placed a little above head height, out of reach of young 'uns. But someone took the time to break down a multi bladed razor.


KnittyNorah said:


> Brain-dead criminal scum.
> Hoped you reported it to whoever seemed appropriate.


No, if it had been inside The Interchange, the BTP would be involved. Never reported it to the police, 101 on hold.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> For those saying that anti vax people are stupid and/or don;t understand numbers
> 
> I have found, over the years, that a lot of people don;t understand numbers properly
> 
> ...



Oh the people who click and share many articles don’t have a clue.

But like you said there are people who manipulate actual numbers from good sources to fit their narrative, I have seen one Twitter account cherry pick information and make it look very very different, when they get called out they get aggressive instantly but these people are far from stupid.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

Milzy said:


> You may think I’m harsh but I’d enjoy taking the pee out of someone suffering but not dying of Covid when they’ve constantly refused the jab.



Well the Finnancial cost is harsh in the USA.






So much for not lining big pharma’s pocket.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

On a serious note I need to become a ECG operator haha


----------



## Milzy (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Well the Finnancial cost is harsh in the USA.
> View attachment 613385
> 
> 
> So much for not lining big pharma’s pocket.


Rip off. I need my cats teeth cleaning but I’d get a bill like that from the vets.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Well the Finnancial cost is harsh in the USA.
> View attachment 613385
> 
> 
> So much for not lining big pharma’s pocket.



Especially with a total pharmacy/drugs bill of over $16,000. And they don't want to 'put unknown chemicals into their bodies'? 
What have they just paid $16,000 for if not for 'chemicals'?


----------



## slowmotion (12 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Well the Finnancial cost is harsh in the USA.
> View attachment 613385
> 
> 
> So much for not lining big pharma’s pocket.


Twenty six thousand dollars for lab tests?????? What are they doing down there, creating Frankenstein's monster?


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Oct 2021)

Milzy said:


> Rip off. I need my cats teeth cleaning but I’d get a bill like that from the vets.



Vets bills seem a license to print money these days.


----------



## icowden (13 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> But like you said there are people who manipulate actual numbers from good sources to fit their narrative, I have seen one Twitter account cherry pick information and make it look very very different, when they get called out they get aggressive instantly but these people are far from stupid.



See this guy:-








> *'We now have the fastest growth in the G7'*



A fine example of manipulating numbers to make yourself look good.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Oct 2021)

The anti vax sovereign citizen who served Colchester Hospital with "legal notice" was a tad amusing yesterday. I can link the video from twitter if people want to laugh at them?

It all turned a little sinister when David Baddiel commented and the peaceful protestors said the only thing coming home is your head in a box, all this a week after an MP was murdered.

The gallows setup in parliament square was extreme poor taste.


----------



## KnittyNorah (22 Oct 2021)

In Florida, a 'school' is telling parents who get their kids vaccinated to keep them out of and away from school premises for a month because of fear that they’ll infect others. School officials said the “policy was enacted ... after much thoughtful deliberation”.

An infectious disease expert responded “What kind of nonsense is this?” ... That’s not even science fiction because it’s pure fiction.”

This is the same school which announced in April this year that they would not employ teachers who had received a Covid vaccine.

Huh? 
Is this fear borne out of ignorance, misinformation and profound gullibility, are they 'just' crackpots - or is it something more malevolent? If the last, to what purpose?
Edited to add LINK to The Independent, where I found this gem.


----------



## icowden (22 Oct 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> In Florida, a 'school' is telling parents who get their kids vaccinated to keep them out of and away from school premises for a month because of fear that they’ll infect others. School officials said the “policy was enacted ... after much thoughtful deliberation”.



If 'twer me I'd keep them out of that school permanently. Clearly staffed by morons of the highest order.


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2021)

This is only linked for comedy purposes. 


View: https://twitter.com/cjsnowdon/status/1450948659881947138?s=21


This person was a candidate for Congress, her Twitter took a direct hit from the ban hammer after this post


View: https://twitter.com/badvaccinetakes/status/1451240867767980032?s=21


----------



## icowden (27 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> This person was a candidate for Congress, her Twitter took a direct hit from the ban hammer after this post



To be fair, she does say that she has lost all of her senses. Not sure that that was Covid related though as it sounds like she lost them quite some time ago...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ris-coons-lauren-witzke-abortion-b512770.html


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> To be fair, she does say that she has lost all of her senses. Not sure that that was Covid related though as it sounds like she lost them quite some time ago...
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ris-coons-lauren-witzke-abortion-b512770.html



haha oh for sure she is a vile bigot there is no debating that, the fact she is now a producer for Stew Peters who hosts a totally ridiculous "truth" broadcast says a lot, also that tweet was just a tick box for anti vax claims.

Least the Twitter mods were on point with her posts and hit her with the atomic ban hammer, issue is these people then put their I'm being censored card.


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2021)

Some bright spark tried to pass this off as an ONS graph, yup I can’t find any graph with that title on that site.


----------



## MartinQ (27 Oct 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Some bright spark tried to pass this off as an ONS graph, yup I can’t find any graph with that title on that site.
> View attachment 615369


Surely a 42% increase in 2020 compared to 2021 would mean the vaccine was good?

I realise it's all bullocks though.


----------



## Johnno260 (27 Oct 2021)

MartinQ said:


> Surely a 42% increase in 2020 compared to 2021 would mean the vaccine was good?
> 
> I realise it's all bullocks though.



I would need to check the actual numbers from ONS, but when this was taken from the daily expose a horrific website dedicated to misinformation, and it claims this graph is from the ONS site with a title like that hmmm

Some of what I see is miss reading data, I had a relative claim 70% of all virus deaths are vaccinated, and they linked this from ONS which is an actual table from the ONS






I said please explain how 51281 total deaths with the unvaccinated deaths being 38964 leaves 70%

They miss read the last column and didn’t check the numbers, all I got back was your a indoctrinated idiot who believes the BBC, simple retort this is the data you gave me lol


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Nov 2021)

Lost for words on this one.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Nov 2021)

This one made me chuckle.


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> View attachment 616580
> 
> 
> Lost for words on this one.



I wonder why so many of us who've had the Kill Jab are still alive? I've had _two_ different types of the Kill Jab and I'm STILL alive! 
It must be very irritating - and disappointing! - for the poor dears who expected those of us who've undergone such massive modification of our DNA to be dead by now ...


----------



## newfhouse (5 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I've had _two_ different types of the Kill Jab


A sceptic - not me - might ask how you know they are different.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> A sceptic - not me - might ask how you know they are different.



Probably like my wife, she has 2 doses of AZ with a Pfizer booster.


----------



## newfhouse (5 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Probably like my wife, she has 2 doses of AZ with a Pfizer booster.


Yes, but if you believe it’s a hoax / lizard plot / NWO population control, why would there be genuinely different versions?


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Yes, but if you believe it’s a hoax / lizard plot / NWO population control, why would there be genuinely different versions?



different vaccines?

both are quite different, AZ is a traditional vaccine, where as the Pfizer is MRNA.

I don’t believe it’s a hoax, I just post these to make people have a little laugh.


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> A sceptic - not me - might ask how you know they are different.


I'm enough of a medical scientist to know that there are indeed teensy, weensy differences between an mRNA vaccine and a viral vector vaccine, _and_ - perhaps more tellingly, given that I don't actually have samples from each bottle to play with and test _personally_ - the facilities required for their manufacture, storage and prior-to-use preparation are very different. 
Of course it _could _ all be an absolutely massive act of deception, and tomorrow 40 million (or however many it is) pre-prepared Brits could wake up with scaly skin and forked tongues ... but somehow, I doubt it. 
How I would love it if Dr Jenner were to be reincarnated tomorrow and - after being told that Smallpox had been declared extinct more than 40 years ago - he were to be offered a tour around a mass vaccination centre. I wonder what _his _reaction would be to the anti-vaxx stickers on lampposts and the protestors outside schools?


----------



## vickster (5 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> different vaccines?
> 
> both are quite different, AZ is a traditional vaccine, where as the Pfizer is MRNA.
> 
> I don’t believe it’s a hoax, I just post these to make people have a little laugh.


And you can tell that by looking at the stuff in the vials? Who’s to say given it’s a conspiracy that the conspirators have just put different labels on the same stuff 🤷‍♀️


----------



## KnittyNorah (5 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Yes, but if you believe it’s a hoax / lizard plot / NWO population control, why would there be genuinely different versions?



If you (not you personally, but a generic you) believe the above, why are you not asking your co-conspiricists how come people are still getting ill/recovering/breeding etc etc?


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Nov 2021)

vickster said:


> And you can tell that by looking at the stuff in the vials? Who’s to say given it’s a conspiracy that the conspirators have just put different labels on the same stuff 🤷‍♀️



You have to use “they” or “them” Vickster come on!!! you have to give it a them and us vibe for it to work, different sides and all that.


It makes it more sinister as well.


----------



## newfhouse (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> If you (not you personally, but a generic you) believe the above, why are you not asking your co-conspiricists how come people are still getting ill/recovering/breeding etc etc?


Well obviously not everyone is within range of the 5G kill switch.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Well obviously not everyone is within range of the 5G kill switch.



that’s comedy gold thanks.


----------



## SydZ (6 Nov 2021)

My daughter finally caved and got her first dose last week.

I received a bit of a rant in a WhatsApp message about why she didn’t need it and being ‘terrified and crying’ as well as being bullied into it by some venues needing the Covid Passport.

Kids eh?!


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Nov 2021)

SydZ said:


> My daughter finally caved and got her first dose last week.
> 
> I received a bit of a rant in a WhatsApp message about why she didn’t need it and being ‘terrified and crying’ as well as being bullied into it by some venues needing the Covid Passport.
> 
> Kids eh?!



I mean least she got it, it’s not like kids are immune from effects of this illness.

Someone we know their child has had his school life upturned as he has bouts of high fevers for no apparent reason since he had Covid, he than has to get tested usually losing 24-48hrs off school.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

SydZ said:


> My daughter finally caved and got her first dose last week.
> 
> I received a bit of a rant in a WhatsApp message about why she didn’t need it and being ‘terrified and crying’ as well as being bullied into it by some venues needing the Covid Passport.
> 
> Kids eh?!



Well, if a barely-palpable needle has her 'terrified and crying' she is a very, very lucky girl indeed to (a) live in a place that offers that as a reliable alternative to the possibility of being induced into a coma and put on a ventilator and to (b) _not _live in a place where being assaulted and harmed by far, _far _more terrifying and damaging things than a mini-needle wielded by a kind and competent professional is a daily occurrence.


----------



## Punkawallah (6 Nov 2021)

Sympathy, much? :-)


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Well obviously not everyone is within range of the 5G kill switch.



Please explain more about this/these switch/es.
Is there just the one, or are there several positioned around the country? Where are they, and when do they come into operation - it is on a regular basis, or is it intermittently/randomly? 
If I wear tinfoil underwear, will that protect me sufficiently, or do I need to wear an entire bodysuit of tinfoil? And does it need to be tinfoil or will aluminium foil do instead?


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Please explain more about this/these switch/es.
> Is there just the one, or are there several positioned around the country? Where are they, and when do they come into operation - it is on a regular basis, or is it intermittently/randomly?
> If I wear tinfoil underwear, will that protect me sufficiently, or do I need to wear an entire bodysuit of tinfoil? And does it need to be tinfoil or will aluminium foil do instead?



I would imagine the 5G kill switch theory will be as effective as Magneto 2.0 below.


View: https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1454217459704242177?s=21


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I would imagine the 5G kill switch theory will be as effective as Magneto 2.0 below.
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/patriottakes/status/1454217459704242177?s=21




Possibly, that guy doesn't understand about _polarity. _He just put the key on his forehead _the wrong way round. _An easy mistake to make if you're flustered about being on TV. 
Alternatively, if the 5gG used for the video connection was doing what it should've been doing, his internal magnetism could've been _cyclical._ In that case, if the video'd've run a bit longer we'd have seen the key being pulled _back _to the magnetic subject. Just the cynical MSM again, only showing what they want you to see ... /sarcasm font _off_


----------



## SydZ (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Well, if a barely-palpable needle has her 'terrified and crying' she is a very, very lucky girl indeed to (a) live in a place that offers that as a reliable alternative to the possibility of being induced into a coma and put on a ventilator and to (b) _not _live in a place where being assaulted and harmed by far, _far _more terrifying and damaging things than a mini-needle wielded by a kind and competent professional is a daily occurrence.


Her fear is nothing at all to do with a needle.

Her head has been filled with all the nonsense that the vaccine wasn’t properly tested and is going to do all sorts of nasty things to her. That is the root cause of her fear.


----------



## fossyant (6 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Well obviously not everyone is within range of the 5G kill switch.



I've still not got 5g, does the fizzer boster come with it.


----------



## fossyant (6 Nov 2021)

SydZ said:


> My daughter finally caved and got her first dose last week.
> 
> I received a bit of a rant in a WhatsApp message about why she didn’t need it and being ‘terrified and crying’ as well as being bullied into it by some venues needing the Covid Passport.
> 
> Kids eh?!



The pressure is from the idiots on social media. My daughter was physically sick before both, even though she was fine to get it, the crap out there causes the anxiety.

I couldn't give a hoot about injections now. Used to have to get a massive needle every two weeks, massive enough that when in the spinal unit, the nurses took one look and asked the matron to do it. It never hurt.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

SydZ said:


> Her fear is nothing at all to do with a needle.
> 
> Her head has been filled with all the nonsense that the vaccine wasn’t properly tested and is going to do all sorts of nasty things to her. That is the root cause of her fear.



That was not mentioned as the causation of her terror AT ALL in your initial post. 
I am surprised that young people are so gullible as to believe such crap; it is always 'the old folk' who are so designated and thought to be 'vulnerable to scammers' - and usually by those much younger than themselves.


----------



## SydZ (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That was not mentioned as the causation of her terror AT ALL in your initial post.
> I am surprised that young people are so gullible as to believe such crap; it is always 'the old folk' who are so designated and thought to be 'vulnerable to scammers' - and usually by those much younger than themselves.


I didn’t state the cause of her fear in my initial post as, to me, it wasn’t relevant. It only became relevant when an assumption of a fear of needles was the cause.

I’ll leave things at that.


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Nov 2021)

The Tweet.







The epic response.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

Of course, if the apparently-real fear is ALL ABOUT (or at least, related to) mRNA technology (or rather, the ignorance about it ...) why are these oh-so-fearful people not clamouring for viral vector vaccines instead?


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Nov 2021)

I’ve said before all the young ones , heads turned by all the crap on social media, believing all the scare stories . Riddle me this wife’s cousin refused to get the vaccine , 25yr old however quite happy to smoke a bit of hash and snort some of the Colombian marching powder no questions asked  . @rseholes everywhere unfortunately


----------



## Johnno260 (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Of course, if the apparently-real fear is ALL ABOUT (or at least, related to) mRNA technology (or rather, the ignorance about it ...) why are these oh-so-fearful people not clamouring for viral vector vaccines instead?



They don’t understand they seem to think all Covid vaccines are MRNA based. 

Let’s see how they feel if the progress with MRNA based treatments and cancer goes well, I bet they would change their minds then.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> they seem to think ...


The issue is more that they don't seem able to actually think at all.



Johnno260 said:


> Let’s see how they feel if the progress with MRNA based treatments and cancer goes well, I bet they would change their minds then.


I'm not too sure about that. After all 'young people don't get cancer' is what too many - even of the supposedly-educated - think, and the minds of the mRNA-obsessed-ignorant-and-phobic will probably not be deflected from their purpose that easily, when there are so many of the vile Shemiranis and her ilk to 'guide them down the path of true health' or some such drivel.

Honestly I am sick of them. I had black sharpies in my bag the other day when I was in town and stopped to help a young man who was peeling off a sticker from the lit-up man on a pelican crossing. He had got quite a lot of it off and I scribbled over the rest. He was spitting in rage and said he had almost lost his gran this time last year. I told him to be careful of razor blades in them and he said he knew but the ones on the lights were easy to check, once the coloured light glowed through the paper.


----------



## Rusty Nails (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That was not mentioned as the causation of her terror AT ALL in your initial post.
> I am surprised that young people are so gullible as to believe such crap; it is always 'the old folk' who are so designated and thought to be 'vulnerable to scammers' - and usually by those much younger than themselves.


Young people are much more avid users of the internet as a news and current affairs source, possibly including conspiracy theories, than older people, so it is no surprise that a large number give some credence to those theories.


----------



## shep (6 Nov 2021)

Call me naive but if all these anti vaxers bother you so much why do you go out of your way to expose yourself to them ( not literally) I picked up on martial art man 'handing out leaflets ' for example, it seems a lot of you read their posts on social media also?

They're idiots, let them get on with it.


----------



## mistyoptic (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Please explain more about this/these switch/es.
> Is there just the one, or are there several positioned around the country? Where are they, and when do they come into operation - it is on a regular basis, or is it intermittently/randomly?
> If I wear tinfoil underwear, will that protect me sufficiently, or do I need to wear an entire bodysuit of tinfoil? And does it need to be tinfoil or will aluminium foil do instead?


As I understand it, you *can* use aluminium foil instead but you *must* make sure to wrap it three times around your heels to be certain you’re earthed at all times


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

mistyoptic said:


> As I understand it, you *can* use aluminium foil instead but you *must* make sure to wrap it three times around your heels to be certain you’re earthed at all times



Yes, that makes sense. I think I'll use the extra-thick turkey foil to ensure effective protection AND earthing. The problem is, though, that if I'm on my bike, the rubber tyres will prevent effective earthing, won't they? Should I drag a chain at all times, just in case I pass a live 5G switching station? Or is that only effective at Hallowe'en?


----------



## newfhouse (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Please explain more about this/these switch/es.


Word on the street is that it’s all linked to the rollout of Windows 11. Apparently it modifies your WiFi signal so that you don’t need to be close to a 5G mast any more. All it will take is for you to receive a carefully crafted email - even deleting it won’t protect you - and boom, your DNA will twisted out of shape forever. Be afraid.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Word on the street is that it’s all linked to the rollout of Windows 11. Apparently it modifies your WiFi signal so that you don’t need to be close to a 5G mast any more. All it will take is for you to receive a carefully crafted email - even deleting it won’t protect you - and boom, your DNA will twisted out of shape forever. Be afraid.


 
But surely if I'm wearing my tinfoil body suit with three layers to ensure earthing, I get some measure of protection at least?


----------



## newfhouse (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> But surely if I'm wearing my tinfoil body suit with three layers to ensure earthing, I get some measure of protection at least?


The Powers That Be have thought of that I’m afraid. The same upgrade allows them to make your screen flicker in such a way that a subliminal reaction occurs in your brain and that triggers the implanted nano chips. Did you really think their carefully crafted plan could be so easily… ahem… foiled?


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> The Powers That Be have thought of that I’m afraid. The same upgrade allows them to make your screen flicker in such a way that a subliminal reaction occurs in your brain and that triggers the implanted nano chips. Did you really think their carefully crafted plan could be so easily… ahem… foiled?



Ah, but I believe that when I had the lenses implanted in my eyes last year, my surgeon used a new material which offers protection so I _think _that as long as I look at the screen through lead glass, I will remain protected. Toxic heavy metals are really the only way to go.


----------



## newfhouse (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Toxic heavy metals are really the only way to go.


To be fair, toxic heavy metal is a cure for pretty much everything except hearing loss.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

newfhouse said:


> To be fair, toxic heavy metal is a cure for pretty much everything except hearing loss.


Indeed, a much underused therapy for all sorts of acute and chronic conditions. I'm just wondering if depleted uranium might be more effective than the lead? Hmmmm ...


----------



## Milzy (6 Nov 2021)

A School in Rotherham I know of has only 30% of the kids willing to accept the jibby jabby.


----------



## KnittyNorah (6 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> A School in Rotherham I know of has only 30% of the kids willing to accept the jibby jabby.



Any reasons given?


----------



## Milzy (6 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Any reasons given?


I’m sure it’s because Mr Hancock said: "This vaccine will not be used for children. It hasn't been tested on children. And the reason is that the likelihood of children having significant detriment if they catch Covid-19 is very, very low.” On top of all the misinformation on social media.


----------



## C R (6 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> I’m sure it’s because Mr Hancock said: "This vaccine will not be used for children. It hasn't been tested on children. And the reason is that the likelihood of children having significant detriment if they catch Covid-19 is very, very low.” On top of all the misinformation on social media.


One of mini CR2's classmates is type 1 diabetic, but will not get vaccinated because who knows what it might do to her in 40 or 50 years time . Being type 1 and refusing vaccination is monumentally stupid, because it seems that covid and whatever causes the type 1 auto immune response work really well together to really do a number on you.


----------



## Milzy (6 Nov 2021)

C R said:


> One of mini CR2's classmates is type 1 diabetic, but will not get vaccinated because who knows what it might do to her in 40 or 50 years time . Being type 1 and refusing vaccination is monumentally stupid, because it seems that covid and whatever causes the type 1 auto immune response work really well together to really do a number on you.


Well a lot of the poor end of society will put unknown fillers in their heads, unknown drugs into their bodies but are scared the vaccines could harm them in some way or won’t have them because millions of people don’t know anyone personally who’s died from it.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Nov 2021)

Social media has a lot to answer for.


----------



## twentysix by twentyfive (7 Nov 2021)

Informed insider tells me that of all the patients in a local hospital and their ICU who are being treated for Covid none have had a Jab.


----------



## C R (7 Nov 2021)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> Informed insider tells me that of all the patients in a local hospital and their ICU who are being treated for Covid none have had a Jab.


Sounds about right.


----------



## fossyant (7 Nov 2021)

C R said:


> One of mini CR2's classmates is type 1 diabetic, but will not get vaccinated because who knows what it might do to her in 40 or 50 years time . Being type 1 and refusing vaccination is monumentally stupid, because it seems that covid and whatever causes the type 1 auto immune response work really well together to really do a number on you.



My son is T1 and despite hating needles, got his Vax asap.


----------



## C R (7 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> My son is T1 and despite hating needles, got his Vax asap.


I'm T1 too, and couldn't wait to get it. Our daughter is gobsmacked by the stupidity of her classmate's parents. Our two girls got theirs as soon as we managed to get appointments for them. Only our son is unvaccinated as he is 10, I myself am counting the days to get my booster.


----------



## markemark (7 Nov 2021)

My daughters class, just had the hpv. It was apparently quite painful so half didn’t want the covid jab the following week.


----------



## MartinQ (7 Nov 2021)

This guy gave a good response at the end of the article
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/filippo-pozzato-in-hospital-with-covid-19/
"Why hadn't I been vaccinated before? Because I have always felt strong, I have been among people who had COVID and nothing had ever happened to me. I was an idiot, and I have taken a good beating


----------



## classic33 (7 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Social media has a lot to answer for.
> View attachment 616808
> 
> 
> View attachment 616809


Kids don't have heart attacks?
https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...amed-for-death-of-gaa-youngster-28062867.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...-arrest-after-sliotar-hit-his-chest-1.3928497

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Heart...ds-year-dies-cardiac-arrest/story?id=13000983


----------



## winjim (7 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Kids don't have heart attacks?
> https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...amed-for-death-of-gaa-youngster-28062867.html
> 
> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...-arrest-after-sliotar-hit-his-chest-1.3928497
> ...


"The first important distinction to make is between a heart attack and cardiac arrest, says Dr. Amy Peterson, a pediatric cardiologist from American Family Children's Hospital in Madison, Wisc."


None of those cases look like what you'd traditionally call a 'heart attack'.


----------



## Oldhippy (7 Nov 2021)

Saw some demonstrating in Whitstable today. Loonies the lot of them.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Kids don't have heart attacks?
> https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...amed-for-death-of-gaa-youngster-28062867.html
> 
> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/hea...-arrest-after-sliotar-hit-his-chest-1.3928497
> ...



Seems they don’t unless vaccinated. 

It’s like Fabrice Muamba never happened, also there has been cardiac issues with soldiers while training going back as long as I can remember.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Nov 2021)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> Informed insider tells me that of all the patients in a local hospital and their ICU who are being treated for Covid none have had a Jab.



I see the numbers from my wife’s hospital and they make scary reading if you aren’t vaccinated.


----------



## winjim (7 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Seems they don’t unless vaccinated.
> 
> It’s like Fabrice Muamba never happened, also there has been cardiac issues with soldiers while training going back as long as I can remember.


"Cardiac arrest, which is what Muamba suffered, is significantly different from a heart attack."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/mar/25/muamba-collapse-minute-by-minute


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> "Cardiac arrest, which is what Muamba suffered, is significantly different from a heart attack."
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/mar/25/muamba-collapse-minute-by-minute



Oh sure, but any cardiac issue is being used by anti vax as a misinfo opportunity


----------



## winjim (7 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Oh sure, but any cardiac issue is being used by anti vax as a misinfo opportunity


If you're going to call out misinformation though, it helps to do it accurately or you become a bearer of misinformation yourself. Cardiac arrest and heart attack are not the same thing, and heart attack in children is very rare indeed.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> If you're going to call out misinformation though, it helps to do it accurately or you become a bearer of misinformation yourself. Cardiac arrest and heart attack are not the same thing, and heart attack in children is very rare indeed.



I think I just get caught up in the moment, but you're very correct, I did go back and check my posts, thankfully mine all referred to cardiac issues stemming in the case of that concert crush injuries.

The guy making the claims he is specifically saying heart attacks in all the victims.

If you see me make mistakes please call me out on them, I want to be correcting misinfo not making the issue worse and muddying the water more as such, and I wont take offence.


----------



## fossyant (7 Nov 2021)

C R said:


> I'm T1 too, and couldn't wait to get it. Our daughter is gobsmacked by the stupidity of her classmate's parents. Our two girls got theirs as soon as we managed to get appointments for them. Only our son is unvaccinated as he is 10, I myself am counting the days to get my booster.



Booked in for booster 5th December. All those vaxxed 5 months ago can log in now. Even though its officially tomorrow.


----------



## C R (9 Nov 2021)

Singapore will start charging covid patients who chose not to be vaccinated

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...covid-patients-who-are-unvaccinated-by-choice


----------



## icowden (9 Nov 2021)

C R said:


> Singapore will start charging covid patients who chose not to be vaccinated
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...covid-patients-who-are-unvaccinated-by-choice



And it looks like the Saj is going to make it compulsory for front line NHS workers to be vaccinated unless they have a medical exemption. Not before time IMHO.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

I've never understood how you can work in a clinical setting but not want to keep your patients as safe as possible. If you think vaccines are going to make you magnetic or that Bill Gates is going to control you, you really shouldn't be treating patients.

I rather liked this bit:



> Some countries have already introduced compulsory vaccination - including France, which had to suspend 3,000 unvaccinated healthcare workers in September.
> But the French government said most suspensions were only temporary, with staff ultimately agreeing to get the jab.



"We don't want ze vaccination!"
"OK - do you want your job?"
"Hmmm.. we 'ave reconsidered... vive la vaccination!"


----------



## winjim (9 Nov 2021)

icowden said:


> And it looks like the Saj is going to make it compulsory for front line NHS workers to be vaccinated unless they have a medical exemption. Not before time IMHO.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282
> 
> I've never understood how you can work in a clinical setting but not want to keep your patients as safe as possible. If you think vaccines are going to make you magnetic or that Bill Gates is going to control you, you really shouldn't be treating patients.
> ...


After the pictures of the Prime Minister visiting an NHS hospital without wearing a mask, they can eff right off with vaccine compulsion.


----------



## Mo1959 (9 Nov 2021)

Personally, I don't like the idea of any medical treatment being compulsory.


----------



## vickster (9 Nov 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Personally, I don't like the idea of any medical treatment being compulsory.


Even if you have a duty of care to your vulnerable patients? A vaccine is not a treatment, it’s a preventative measure


----------



## icowden (9 Nov 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Personally, I don't like the idea of any medical treatment being compulsory.



I agree with you on general principle. However if your work setting is such that you might cause harm, then this overrides any personal preference. If you work in a care home - you should be vaccinated. If you work on wards, in a hospital, in theatres (medical), visit patients at home etc, you should be vaccinated.

I also think that if you work in a setting where you have mass exposure, you should be vaccinated. My local Sainsbury's annoys me. The staff manning the self checkouts and smart checkouts don't wear masks but have the greatest exposure to Covid of almost any location given the volumes of people passing through that area and the proximity that they have to maintain to approve and fix the checkouts.


----------



## DCBassman (9 Nov 2021)

Anyone in healthcare without medical exemption should be vaccinated, no exceptions. As a healthcare worker, how stupid would you have to be to refuse?


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Nov 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Personally, I don't like the idea of any medical treatment being compulsory.



You may not like it, but would you - if you were pregnant - like to be exposed to rubella and its potentially devastating consequences for your unborn baby?

Or would you have been happy for me to have been kept on in my research post in ultrasound despite my posting a clear and ever-present possible threat to my early-pregnant patients because I had no immunity to rubella, and could very easily have carried it to any of them who had low or waning immunity, with possibly-disastrous results to their unborn baby? Or is that somehow 'different' because it involves _baybeez? _

Does _anybody _in their right mind think I should still have been kept on to potentially devastate a family and their future hopes? Or aren't there enough possibilities for tragedy already that we need to add some deliberate ones? I most certainly don't, and any disappointment I felt was at my own body for not responding as expected to the rubella vaccine, not for the regulations around my job.

I emphasise that in my case I simply did not respond to the rubella vaccination with a measurable antibody titre. I forget how many rubella vaxx I had in total - four, I think. So I changed my direction of work. I was not so irresponsible or self-centred as to think that I should be allowed to continue in post. 

On a personal basis, for the patient, I don't believe _in principle_ that treatment - be it medical, surgical, pharmaceutical, psychological or any other - should ever be made actually _compulsory._ 
HOWEVER that is a decision which is impossible to carry out, as it presupposes that there are facilities and legislation available which can - if someone's untreated illness causes them to be a danger to others or to themselves - swiftly and efficiently remove and safely and humanely contain them, while still complying with their wished for non-treatment. And it is abundantly clear that is rarely, if ever, possible, and frequently _entirely_ the wrong thing to do. 

Now I will grant you that C-19 vaccination is a very different kettle of fish to eg smallpox or rubella vaxx. It isn't a sterilising vaccine, for one (probably the main!) thing, if we to compare it to the 'transmission STOPPED' effect of the aforementioned vaccines. However, along with regular lateral flow tests and appropriate masking, it is a very large contributor indeed to maintaining the health of NHS and social services staff, and the continuity and safety of its services and functions.

And as someone has already stated, a vaccination isn't treatment, it is prevention and protection. There are precedents for making certain vaccinations compulsory in certain medical and caring professions and and if you, as a member of one of those professions, or associated directly with them, don't like it, the answer is very simple ...


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Call me naive but if all these anti vaxers bother you so much why do you go out of your way to expose yourself to them ( not literally) I picked up on martial art man 'handing out leaflets ' for example, it seems a lot of you read their posts on social media also?
> 
> They're idiots, let them get on with it.



I don't always go out of my way but for example I was asked to pick my nephew up from school when I was finishing work early, anti vax outside the school, but no issue just ignore them.

but and here is the kicker once they bring out the phones and cameras and start grilling minors and livestreaming it, I and any other sane adult is then allowed to challenge them, being told to f off when the questions been asked isn't a valid answer and neither is this is public ground I can film, fact is without parental consent you can't.

All I did was stand in front of them filming, they got aggressive not me, my only reply was it's public ground I can stand where I want, and I repeated it whenever they got angry and shouted something.

Edit: I'm glad I have confronted them previously, it equipped me with knowing their likely responses would be, and also with regards to the school how to block them without being overly aggressive, it's not the first time they appeared at this school either.


----------



## Bazzer (9 Nov 2021)

I went for my booster yesterday, booked to a pharmacy about 10 miles away as it was the earliest date I could secure and at 72 hours notice, was pleased to get the appointment. The vaccination centre was a temporary building such as you might see on a building site, but in the pharmacy car park.
At 8am there were only 3 or 4 of us being jabbed and we were chatting to the healthcare worker administering the jab. Among other things, she said the pharmacy hadn't been used for the original mass vaccinations, but the siting of the temporary building for the booster programme had apparently been deliberate. - Anti vaxxers had been active in a couple of settlements, each within a less than 5 miles radius of the pharmacy.
Which may also account for the very large Covid vaccination centre signs outside the pharmacy.


----------



## lazybloke (9 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> After the pictures of the Prime Minister visiting an NHS hospital without wearing a mask, they can eff right off with vaccine compulsion.


That seems uncharacteristically negative.
If you disregard the lack of leadership from Boris for a moment, what are your objections to vaccinating frontline health workers?

To a certain extent I think that hand-washing, mask-wearing and daily testing are more important, but if there is evidence to suggest vaccination also helps, then why not? Would be good to see that evidence, and whether the expected difference would be trivial or non-trivial.

My 12 year old is at increased risk of covid complications, yet due to medical history is also at risk of severe/fatal reaction to vaccination, so I can see both side of the argument - yet I have no objection to mandating vaccinations as long as medical exemptions can be accommodated.


----------



## Profpointy (9 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> View attachment 616580
> 
> 
> Lost for words on this one.



Surely that's a viz comic style joke ... isn't it? But it's increasingly hard to tell


----------



## Profpointy (9 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> After the pictures of the Prime Minister visiting an NHS hospital without wearing a mask, they can eff right off with vaccine compulsion.


"If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, is it meet, think you, that we should also, look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, in your own conscience, now?"


----------



## FishFright (9 Nov 2021)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> Informed insider tells me that of all the patients in a local hospital and their ICU who are being treated for Covid none have had a Jab.



A similar informed insider has told me the vast majority in ICU/HD are not vaccinated but there are a few vaccinated in lower dependency beds too. He is no more surprised than I am .


----------



## winjim (9 Nov 2021)

Profpointy said:


> "If the enemy is an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, is it meet, think you, that we should also, look you, be an ass and a fool and a prating coxcomb, in your own conscience, now?"


I get your point but I wasn't exactly in favour of compulsion anyway.


----------



## Alex321 (9 Nov 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Personally, I don't like the idea of any medical treatment being compulsory.


It isn't being made compulsory.

It is being made a condition of employment in certain positions. While I am still not entirely comfortable with even that level of requirement, I can understand it, and I really don't understand why anybody working in those positions who is medically fit to have the vaccination would not do so.


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## Electric_Andy (9 Nov 2021)

NHS workers are required to be fully up to date with training, competencies etc. Having a jab should be no different. It's part of safeguarding patients against harm.


----------



## Profpointy (9 Nov 2021)

Electric_Andy said:


> NHS workers are required to be fully up to date with training, competencies etc. Having a jab should be no different. It's part of safeguarding patients against harm.



Quite - an anti vax health worker is in effect someone who doesn't believe in modern medicine. A view completely incompatible with the role surely. It's equivalent to not believing in germs, or cancer, or not doing the treatment the doctor asks for because they don't believe in it


----------



## Punkawallah (9 Nov 2021)

Health service workers joined knowing that vaccinations were a requirement. Goal posts are being moved after they have performed their jobs ‘heroically’. If your contract of work was changed without your consent and you were sacked it would be a case for ‘constructive/unfair dismissal’. I can see a few tribunals if push cones to shove.


----------



## winjim (9 Nov 2021)

lazybloke said:


> That seems uncharacteristically negative.
> If you disregard the lack of leadership from Boris for a moment, what are your objections to vaccinating frontline health workers?
> 
> To a certain extent I think that hand-washing, mask-wearing and daily testing are more important, but if there is evidence to suggest vaccination also helps, then why not? Would be good to see that evidence, and whether the expected difference would be trivial or non-trivial.
> ...


There are those who might take issue with your description of that post as 'uncharacteristically negative'.

Who are you describing as a 'frontline health worker'?


----------



## vickster (9 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> Who are you describing as a 'frontline health worker'?


I'd personally say anyone who is employed in an NHS or private hospital, GP surgery, clinic, pharmacy... who could conceivably come into contact with a patient/member of the public? So would also include porters, lab workers, cleaners, maintenance staff, secretaries, reception staff, managers and so on as well as HCPs/ACPs.

That said, I don't get why anyone able to be safely vaccinated against Covid (and any other nasties they may be exposed to) would choose not to be


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (9 Nov 2021)

I presume people who champion the 'rights' of NHS frontline workers to refuse the vaccine

are also happy for the surgeon that next operates on them to not wear gloves or a mask - because I have been told of MANY MANY health problems caused by mask wearing
and over washing hands can cause rashes and all sorts
so - their choice???


----------



## shep (9 Nov 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I presume people who champion the 'rights' of NHS frontline workers to refuse the vaccine
> 
> are also happy for the surgeon that next operates on them to not wear gloves or a mask - because I have been told of MANY MANY health problems caused by mask wearing
> and over washing hands can cause rashes and all sorts
> so - their choice???


My missus was a Theatre Nurse for over 30yrs and her hands were always sore for that very reason.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (9 Nov 2021)

Good afternoon,

The BBC is reporting the policy as _There will be exemptions for the Covid vaccine requirement for medical reasons, _

At first glance this may sound reasonable however I do not understand the logic of a medical exemption in this context.

What is the difference in the risk to the patient from a person who has not been vaccinated because they don't want to be and a person who had not been vaccinated because the vaccine is potentially harmful to them?

If as seems likely the risk to the patient is identical then I don't understand why two people who present an identical risk to patients should be treated differently because of the reason they chose for presenting that identical risk.

Sure it may seem unfair to say to someone with 20 years experience who is unable to safely receive the vaccine _sorry but you can no longer due the job_ but I don't see any other option unless you admit that certain classes of employee are at a higher risk of infecting patients and this is an acceptable risk, undermining the case for the vaccine requirement in the first place. 

Once you say that this is the policy then you seem to be creating a policy that is destined to end up in court; When one individual is forced to change role/leave and another individual performing exactly the same action or in this case inactions is not.

Bye

Ian


----------



## lazybloke (9 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> There are those who might take issue with your description of that post as 'uncharacteristically negative'.
> 
> Who are you describing as a 'frontline health worker'?


I have a lot of time for your posts - usually, but I responded to that one because your comment about Boris didn't explain your position. 

"Frontline health worker" was a misquote from a new report I read or heard earlier. I assume it refers to staff who have regular contact with vulnerable patients (like my youngest).

The Beeb used the phrase "Frontline NHS staff"​The Evening standard said "Frontline NHS workers"​
In principle I support the concept of vaccination being a condition of employment (the precedent of Hep B vaccination has been discussed previously) - although my worry would be the unintended impact of staff leaving an already-stretched profession.


----------



## vickster (9 Nov 2021)

As someone was saying on the news (Unison medical lead?), it's crucial to understand why workers in healthcare/care settings aren't being vaccinated - education needed, misinformation, distrust of pharma...or...? And then address those concerns/misunderstandings etc


----------



## winjim (9 Nov 2021)

lazybloke said:


> I have a lot of time for your posts - usually, but I responded to that one because your comment about Boris didn't explain your position.
> 
> "Frontline health worker" was a misquote from a new report I read or heard earlier. I assume it refers to staff who have regular contact with vulnerable patients (like my youngest).
> ​The Beeb used the phrase "Frontline NHS staff"​The Evening standard said "Frontline NHS workers"​
> In principle I support the concept of vaccination being a condition of employment (the precedent of Hep B vaccination has been discussed previously) - although my worry would be the unintended impact of staff leaving an already-stretched profession.


I'll let the Boris comment speak for itself as much as it can, my full opinions are not for consumption on this forum.

Is 'frontline' a misquote? Many seem to use it yet few seem to define it. (With the honourable exception of @vickster above)

It's interesting how the focus has shifted from trying to avoid overwhelming the NHS to seemingly trying to protect the patients. For example, as lab staff we have very little patient contact yet the service could not run without us. So in terms of service continuity we could be considered 'frontline' but in terms of patient protection from infection, maybe not.

I dislike the term as you may be able to tell. It seems to have been coined in order to imply that we are fighting some sort of war, along with the portrayal of NHS staff as 'heroes'. It's disingenuous undefined rhetoric.


----------



## Alex321 (9 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> Health service workers joined knowing that vaccinations were a requirement. Goal posts are being moved after they have performed their jobs ‘heroically’. If your contract of work was changed without your consent and you were sacked it would be a case for ‘constructive/unfair dismissal’. I can see a few tribunals if push cones to shove.


If the contract is changed in the same way for everybody, and only a few refuse, then they are unlikely to win at the tribunal.


----------



## fossyant (9 Nov 2021)

The risk for my MIL in 'care' is contracting the virus from un-vaxxed staff. My wife can't see her mum, even now, without regular testing, and then only in PPE, yet she's vaxxed as well. The longer this continues, the longer my MIL lives in a prison. Get the jab, let's get this virus beaten.


----------



## KnittyNorah (9 Nov 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good afternoon,
> 
> The BBC is reporting the policy as _There will be exemptions for the Covid vaccine requirement for medical reasons, _
> 
> ...



I was directly involved in a very similar issue many years ago.

I see no reason why it should end up in court. 

If a person already in a permanent position is willing to fulfil new requirements of the job - and this happens all the time in the caring professions - which involve vaccination against a 'new' disease, but is unable to do so for _genuine clinical reasons, _then it is incumbent on their employer to find them a suitable alternative position and/or manage the employee's condition in such a way that safety for both employee and patient is maintained. 

It may well be that an employee who cannot safely be vaccinated against C-19 will have to change their duties significantly; there should be no financial loss to the employee in this case and any further training must be provided FOC at full salary. It may be that onerous testing regimes must be undertaken and if so the employee must be paid for the time they are doing this. Developments in vaccine technologies will no doubt arrive, and persons unable to take the current vaccinations may be able to take a new one in total safety. 

However if a person in a permanent position is merely unwilling - rather than clinically unable - to fulfil new requirements, such as being vaccinated, they should be sacked. 
Medicine and healthcare _depends _on new technology, change in practices and upgrading of knowledge. Otherwise women would still be dying of puerperal fever and smallpox controlled by variolation ...


----------



## classic33 (9 Nov 2021)

What about those health care workers that are agency employed, working in the persons home. There's some that have already been finished because they couldn't manipulate the system in order to get their vaccinations, due to the age range system being used. Not a work related system. 

The system covering them isn't as good as that covering health care workers in health care facilities. But they're expected to carry on as normal.


----------



## lazybloke (10 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> I'll let the Boris comment speak for itself as much as it can, my full opinions are not for consumption on this forum.
> 
> Is 'frontline' a misquote? Many seem to use it yet few seem to define it. (With the honourable exception of @vickster above)
> 
> ...


I see no shift in focus.

Demand for NHS services has spiked alarmingly at various points during the pandemic. Covid has been a tragedy for patients, but a collapse of the NHS would have been unimaginably worse. The government was slow to react to those spikes (causing outcomes that should be discussed in NACA), but thankfully a collapse of the NHS was avoided. Arguably this saved many lives.

It's nonsense to suggest there's a been a shift of focus (from protecting the NHS to protecting patients), because the goal was always to protect patients. Protecting the NHS was only ever an intermediate step, not the goal.


----------



## lazybloke (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> What about those health care workers that are agency employed, working in the persons home. There's some that have already been finished because they couldn't manipulate the system in order to get their vaccinations, due to the age range system being used. Not a work related system.
> 
> The system covering them isn't as good as that covering health care workers in health care facilities. But they're expected to carry on as normal.


Is there a specific scenario you're thinking off, because I'm failing to see any reason why a jab is impossible for an adult worker.

The deadline for carers to be jabbed is months away, and they've been able to get jabs for months now.
In fact, many carers were included in JCVI group 2 so would have qualified for jabs very early in the vaccination programme, no manipulation of the system necessary.

If a 12 yr old can get a jab at a GP, pharmacy or vaccination centre, then I can think of no reason why an adult in the care profession can't do the same - and make themself employable again.


----------



## classic33 (10 Nov 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Is there a specific scenario you're thinking off, because I'm failing to see any reason why a jab is impossible for an adult worker.
> 
> The deadline for carers to be jabbed is months away, and they've been able to get jabs for months now.
> In fact, many carers were included in JCVI group 2 so would have qualified for jabs very early in the vaccination programme, no manipulation of the system necessary.
> ...


Well aware that getting the jab now is very different to March/April this year. But when your job has already gone, what point is there in pointing out the current situation?


----------



## KnittyNorah (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Well aware that getting the jab now is very different to March/April this year. But when your job has already gone, what point is there in pointing out the current situation?



But the current situation is that there is massive shortage of the type of home carer workers you describe, so -_ if _they wished - they could easily return to their previous profession. Except they've probably find working in Aldi to pay better and be less stressful in just about every way ...


----------



## lazybloke (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Well aware that getting the jab now is very different to March/April this year. But when your job has already gone, what point is there in pointing out the current situation?


Because they could get jabbed now and apply for another job? 
I'm beginning to think you're talking about an anti-vaxxer. 


A person needing covid jabs to do their care job should have been in cohort 2. 
If by some accident they were excluded, they could have worked with their employer, GP or local authority to correct the problem.

If they failed to do that, even at threat of losing their job, then the subsequent sacking would appear to be self-inflicted and avoidable.


----------



## DCBassman (10 Nov 2021)

Anyone who is medically exempt from vaccination will likely have problems that mean they shouldn't be near patients in any case.
Barring the exempt, it's a bit like military personnel suddenly deciding not to go to war when required.
If you can't take a joke, you shouldn't have joined....


----------



## classic33 (10 Nov 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Because they could get jabbed now and apply for another job?
> I'm beginning to think you're talking about an anti-vaxxer.
> 
> 
> ...


They were given the choice, get their two jabs in March/April this year or goodbye.

Remind me, what was the time period between the first and second jabs at that time. I don't think it would have been possible to have both in that time period.

Upshot was the agency employing them let them go. How do you stop that happening with other agency workers, if they're waiting for their third?


----------



## Alex321 (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> They were given the choice, get their two jabs in March/April this year or goodbye.
> 
> Remind me, what was the time period between the first and second jabs at that time. I don't think it would have been possible to have both in that time period.


I don't believe that happened at all.

I do not think anybody was told out of the blue that they now had to get both jabs within a time period which would not allow them to do so.

There will have been people who didn't get the first jab when they could have done, who for some reason did not believe it would apply to them and who would then be caught in that type of situation, but that was due to them not facing up to the reality that they would need to be jabbed.



> Upshot was the agency employing them let them go. How do you stop that happening with other agency workers, if they're waiting for their third?


You can't. But that would be very short sighted of the agency, given the extreme shortage of available staff. They would walk into another job after getting the booster, if they wanted to.


----------



## IanSmithCSE (10 Nov 2021)

Good morning,


KnittyNorah said:


> I was directly involved in a very similar issue many years ago.....
> 
> If a person already in a permanent position is willing to fulfil new requirements of the job - and this happens all the time in the caring professions - which involve vaccination against a 'new' disease, but is unable to do so for _genuine clinical reasons, _then it is incumbent on their employer to find them a suitable alternative position and/or manage the employee's condition in such a way that safety for both employee and patient is maintained.
> ......


Thanks, that is a very clear and easy to understand statement of the position.

I have always worked as a self employed person, or as a director or employee of small/start up businesses and this will no doubt have affected my world view.

I genuinely do not understand why _genuine clinical reasons _should be treated differently to _I don't want to. _

That I am confused by why you consider them different is quite possibly as odd to you as it is odd to me that you do.

Bye

Ian


----------



## Alex321 (10 Nov 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Good morning,
> 
> Thanks, that is a very clear and easy to understand statement of the position.
> 
> ...



They should be treated differently in the response of the employer. 

In the first case, the employer should take whatever steps they can to continue employing the person in a role which does not bring them into such close contact with vulnerable people. Or if absolutely necessary, allow them to continue if sufficient additional mitigation measures can be implemented.

In the second case, the employer has no such responsibility, and can basically just sack the employee.


----------



## classic33 (10 Nov 2021)

Alex321 said:


> *I don't believe that happened at all.*
> 
> I do not think anybody was told out of the blue that they now had to get both jabs within a time period which would not allow them to do so.
> 
> ...


You can believe what you want.


----------



## KnittyNorah (10 Nov 2021)

IanSmithCSE said:


> I genuinely do not understand why _genuine clinical reasons _should be treated differently to _I don't want to._


Lets put the genuine clinical reasons and I don't want to into a different situation.

If someone is born with no legs, or loses them or the use of them after an accident or illness, they will be provided with, at the very least, a power or self-propelled wheelchair by the NHS or similar funding body.
If someone merely doesn't _want _to walk - is too bone idle to do so - should they, too, be provided with a power wheelchair free of charge?

A person who has an epileptic seizure is banned from driving forthwith until certain tests have been carried out and a certain period of time (months or years rather than weeks) has elapsed since the last seizure. They are able to obtain a disabled person's bus pass during this time, and access all the local bus services within their UK country of residence, free of charge. Should someone who is banned from driving by reason of judicial disqualification be granted a free bus pass, too? Their driving ban is just as onerous and inconvenient as that of the person who has a mysterious epileptic seizure, so why should they not be treated in the same way by TPTB?


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## Alex321 (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> You can believe what you want.


Of course.

So can you.

I have seen no evidence to support your suggestion that people were told *with no advance knowledge*, that they would have to get both injections within a period where that would not be possible.


----------



## lazybloke (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> They were given the choice, get their two jabs in March/April this year or goodbye.
> 
> Remind me, what was the time period between the first and second jabs at that time. I don't think it would have been possible to have both in that time period.
> 
> Upshot was the agency employing them let them go. How do you stop that happening with other agency workers, if they're waiting for their third?


Sorry Classic33, but I was in cohort 9 and fully vaccinated in May, so a cohort 2 carer should have had ample time to be vaccinated in April.

This looks increasingly like an antivaxxer being unwilling to accept responsibility for the consequences of refusing jabs. 
Agency workers have always had few rights (for example it's not possible for the self-employed to be unfairly dismissed) , so perhaps such people need not to rock the boat?

Their way back into work is to have both jabs at the earliest opportunity; they will then be employable again - although I should think many employers would be extremely wary. That's another consequence they should have considered.

And when they do become eligble for a booster 6 months later, maybe act promptly? Otherwise..


----------



## classic33 (10 Nov 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Sorry Classic33, but I was in cohort 9 and fully vaccinated in May, so a cohort 2 carer should have had ample time to be vaccinated in April.
> 
> This looks increasingly like an antivaxxer being unwilling to accept responsibility for the consequences of refusing jabs.
> Agency workers have always had few rights (for example it's not possible for the self-employed to be unfairly dismissed) , so perhaps such people need not to rock the boat?
> ...


Remind me, in March this year, what was the gap between 1st & 2nd jabs.

Both by May would have been outside the time limit set. Which is why I said manipulate the system.

I was in CEV group/cohort, with the first in mid March. June would have been the second one, if the gap between 1st & 2nd was what I thought it was. Twelve weeks, the same for them.


----------



## Alex321 (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Remind me, in March this year, what was the gap between 1st & 2nd jabs.
> 
> Both by May would have been outside the time limit set. Which is why I said manipulate the system.
> 
> I was in CEV group/cohort, with the first in mid March. June would have been the second one, if the gap between 1st & 2nd was what I thought it was. Twelve weeks, the same for them.


I think you are wrong about that. The standard gap at that time was 11 weeks, and it could be done as little as 8 weeks after the first.

I had my first on 10th March, and my second on 26th May (11 weeks and 1 day between them). I'm expecting to be contacted for my booster in a couple of weeks. I think I was cohort 7 (age 62, no vulnerabilities or other priority such as health workers).


----------



## lazybloke (10 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Remind me, in March this year, what was the gap between 1st & 2nd jabs.
> 
> Both by May would have been outside the time limit set. Which is why I said manipulate the system.
> 
> I was in CEV group/cohort, with the first in mid March. June would have been the second one, if the gap between 1st & 2nd was what I thought it was. Twelve weeks, the same for them.


Sorry, but we were discussing JCVI Group 2 carers being sacked because they were unjabbed. 
I can only assume this was by choice, because vaccines were offered to that cohort from circa 11th January 2021, so 2nd jabs would have been from circa 5th April. Double-jabbed in April; that's within the timescale you suggested was impossible.

Not sure of the relevant of you being in the CEV cohort (Group 4) but it's interesting to see that this group were eligible from week starting 18th January. It suggests that you delayed a considerable TWO MONTHS before accepting your first jab.

One wonders why you waited so long, possibly some scepticism about new vaccines? I had my own concerns too, but the risk from the disease was far far higher than the real world risks such as the very rare clotting problem. Vaccination was the only logical conclusion, even though I'm in great health with no known underlying health conditions.

So who are these carers that lost their jobs; are they vaccinated now?


----------



## classic33 (10 Nov 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Sorry, but we were discussing JCVI Group 2 carers being sacked because they were unjabbed.
> I can only assume this was by choice, because vaccines were offered to that cohort from circa 11th January 2021, so 2nd jabs would have been from circa 5th April. Double-jabbed in April; that's within the timescale you suggested was impossible.
> 
> Not sure of the relevant of you being in the CEV cohort (Group 4) but it's interesting to see that this group were eligible from week starting 18th January. It suggests that you delayed a considerable TWO MONTHS before accepting your first jab.
> ...


My being in the CEV group was given as an example. I got the time, date and location sent to me repeatedly. The decision wasn't mine. If I was two months late, is it not fair to assume others were as well. Through no fault if theirs?

How one area performed, doesn't mean all were the same.

Two of those I know lost their jobs, one after 15 years the other after six, never went back into similar work. One now works in a shop, the other has a cleaning job in the local DWP offices.


----------



## Punkawallah (11 Nov 2021)

I’ve read these posts, and I t tickles me that people are so ready to group into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Not as bad as the NZ premier, who happily confirms their ‘two tier society’, but not exactly a beacon of tolerance.


----------



## C R (11 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> I’ve read these posts, and I t tickles me that people are so ready to group into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Not as bad as the NZ premier, who happily confirms their ‘two tier society’, but not exactly a beacon of tolerance.


The anti vaxxers are consciously and deliberately refusing to take a simple measure that benefits the whole of society at a fairly negligible cost to themselves for no rational reason.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> I’ve read these posts, and I t tickles me that people are so ready to group into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Not as bad as the NZ premier, who happily confirms their ‘two tier society’, but not exactly a beacon of tolerance.


Quite right it is not a "beacon of tolerance". Nor should it be IMO.

This isn't about deeply held religious beliefs, or colour of skin or other inherent characteristic.

This is about people who are too *selfish* (or too gullible in some cases) to do a very tiny amount to help protect society and their fellow man.

Are you a "Beacon of tolerance" for those who choose to vandalise other people's property? Or even government property (such as the council bike rentals that have had to be shut down due to vandalism & theft)?


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> I’ve read these posts, and I t tickles me that people are so ready to group into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Not as bad as the NZ premier, who happily confirms their ‘two tier society’, but not exactly a beacon of tolerance.



Do you not realise that an infectious disease is somewhat different to a person and their characteristics?

There are legal, as well as medical, obligations and regulations around a great many diseases, especially dangerous infectious diseases, in every country which lays any claim to civilisation and a health service. C-19 is just one - the newest one, and currently one of the most common ones, at least in this country - among these diseases.

But if you don't realise, or accept, that an infectious disease is somewhat different to a person and their characteristics, you probably don't realise, either, that what is now generically known as vaccination is a centuries-old practice which has been protecting both humans and animals from the worst ravages of various infectious illnesses with significant degrees of success, all around the world.

It is (almost) entirely a person's own choice to get vaccinated, or not. That is not so in the case of a person's ethnic heritage, religion, gender, intellectual capacity etc and I take _*great offence *_at your comparison ......


----------



## Punkawallah (11 Nov 2021)

You missed out the mentally ill - one of the first sections of the community to suffer.


----------



## C R (11 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> You missed out the mentally ill - one of the first sections of the community to suffer.


Sorry, you've lost me. To suffer from what, COVID or antivax disinformation.


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> You missed out the mentally ill - one of the first sections of the community to suffer.



If you had read my post, you would have seen that I said AND OTHER VICTIMS, so as to miss out NO-ONE. Not the mentally ill, the developmentally-delayed, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deaf, Communists, those with physical deformities and disabilities, political dissidents .... in fact the five million dead out of the total of eleven million. 

And - if you insist on arguing about who was first in line for the concentration camps - I have been led to understand that the first concentration camp to be established, Dachau, was populated initially by Communists, and in later years, various experiments with mass killing machines culminated in 500 Soviet POWs being 'successfully' gassed to death with the pesticide Zyklon-B, which resulted in huge orders being placed for the chemical and the gassing apparatus. 

My dad was sent into Bergen-Belsen just a day or two after its liberation, as an interpreter as he spoke both Yiddish and German fluently; the horrors he witnessed remained with him until the day of his (premature) death.

Attempting to equate the restrictions and inconveniences which may affect a person who refuses vaccination with the treatment afforded by the Nazis to one of their victims is nothing more or less than _*despicable*_.


----------



## TheDoctor (12 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> I’ve read these posts, and I t tickles me that people are so ready to group into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Not as bad as the NZ premier, who happily confirms their ‘two tier society’, but not exactly a beacon of tolerance.


There's a big difference between.'happily confirming' something and acknowledging it. The Maori population are generally poorer, less likely to be employed and more likely to have difficulties accessing healthcare. Should the NZ Premier ignore that?


----------



## Punkawallah (12 Nov 2021)

The NZ president was answering a question on whether her policy to exclude non-vaccinated people would create a two-tier society. She smilingly acknowledged this.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Nov 2021)

It is not the NZ premiere's policy which creates a two-tier society.

As long as those who cannot take the vaccine, or who do not respond to the vaccine, have suitable provisions made, any 'second tier' in society caused by voluntary non-vaccination is entirely the responsibility of the non-vaxxers themselves.


----------



## fossyant (12 Nov 2021)

You lose sympathy with the anti brigade when you've got vulnerable relatives who you can't see due to additional restrictions to protect them, or indeed, friends either long term ill with it, or can't mix with others due to their own health conditions. They can't risk even catching it after the jab.


----------



## FishFright (12 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> I’ve read these posts, and I t tickles me that people are so ready to group into ‘them’ and ‘us’. Not as bad as the NZ premier, who happily confirms their ‘two tier society’, but not exactly a beacon of tolerance.



Did you copy that from a jpeg on Facebook ?


----------



## fossyant (12 Nov 2021)

There is going to be many without jobs shortly, and indeed Uni courses. we're expecting drop outs from NHS related courses when mandatory jabs come in. As a Uni we won't enforce the rules, but if a Nurse/Physio want's to go on placement, then they will have to be jabbed. No placement, no qualification.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> There is going to be many without jobs shortly, and indeed Uni courses. we're expecting drop outs from NHS related courses when mandatory jabs come in. As a Uni we won't enforce the rules, but if a Nurse/Physio want's to go on placement, then they will have to be jabbed. No placement, no qualification.



I fully expect there'll be an upsurge in 'private' courses which lead to quack registrations with dodgy 'regulatory bodies' - probably further funding the antics of the Kate Shemiranis and Piers Corbyns of this world.


----------



## fossyant (12 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I fully expect there'll be an upsurge in 'private' courses which lead to quack registrations with dodgy 'regulatory bodies' - probably further funding the antics of the Kate Shemiranis and Piers Corbyns of this world.



You can't have dodgy bodies - it's NMC only for Nursing.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> You can't have dodgy bodies - it's NMC only for Nursing.



I know it is and you know it is, but there are - and I believe will be a growth in - dodgy bodies which claim to offer 'qualifications' and 'registrations' in _non-protected _professional titles, and in quasi-professions with names that sound very similar/closely related to regulated ones ...


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Nov 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> The NZ president was answering a question on whether her policy to exclude non-vaccinated people would create a two-tier society. She smilingly acknowledged this.



The people refusing the vaccine are creating a 2 tier system, they think choices don't have consequences, or basically don't want to be accountable for their choices and pass the buck.

People who can't be vaccinated on medical grounds I don't count in the above sentence.


----------



## shep (12 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> People who can't be vaccinated on medical grounds I don't count in the above sentence.


Totally agree.


----------



## C R (12 Nov 2021)

“You are not allowed to infect anybody just because you think you’ve got rights that are delusional,”
Gene Simmons, bassist of Kiss gives the libertarian antivax arguments both barrels 
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/gene-simmons-vs-anti-vaxxers_n_618de918e4b0c621c5cb33d1


----------



## slowmotion (12 Nov 2021)

Seven hours ago, I had a flu jab in my left arm and a COVID booster in the other. The flu arm is considerably more tender than the other one. So far, my testicles have not swollen up to the size of watermelons and the microchip implanted by the sinister forces of the Deep State appears not to have been activated. 
I expect I'll be abducted by aliens tonight.


----------



## classic33 (12 Nov 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Seven hours ago, I had a flu jab in my left arm and a COVID booster in the other. The flu arm is considerably more tender than the other one. So far, my testicles have not swollen up to the size of watermelons and the microchip implanted by the sinister forces of the Deep State appears not to have been activated.
> *I expect I'll be abducted by aliens tonight.*


Just in case, where will you be leaving the key for your WDC, and your pilchard supplies?


----------



## slowmotion (12 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Just in case, where will you be leaving the key for your WDC, and your pilchard supplies?


The aliens will be taking the pilchards. They are not stupid. The World Domination Centre will be going too, soon to be studied when they get back home (about 3 nanoseconds). They need some ideas about how to go about it.


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Seven hours ago, I had a flu jab in my left arm and a COVID booster in the other. The flu arm is considerably more tender than the other one. So far, my testicles have not swollen up to the size of watermelons and the microchip implanted by the sinister forces of the Deep State appears not to have been activated.
> I expect I'll be abducted by aliens tonight.



I'm sorry to have to inform you of this, but the aliens have already taken over your body and you are now merely a tool for the furtherance of their plans ...


----------



## slowmotion (13 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I'm sorry to have to inform you of this, but the aliens have already taken over your body and you are now merely a tool for the furtherance of their plans ...



That's cool. As long as Piers Corbyn doesn't come and ring my doorbell and put his megaphone in my face, I think I'll go quietly with the friendly little green men.


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Nov 2021)

slowmotion said:


> That's cool. As long as Piers Corbyn doesn't come and ring my doorbell and put his megaphone in my face, I think I'll go quietly with the friendly little green men.



Piers is in Scotland telling everyone CO2 is the gas of life.


----------



## slowmotion (13 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Piers is in Scotland telling everyone CO2 is the gas of life.
> View attachment 617502


His climate views are not mainstream, but I don't have a problem with them. It's the anti-vaxxer stuff that seems positively dangerous.


----------



## Mike Ayling (13 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> The people refusing the vaccine are creating a 2 tier system, they think choices don't have consequences, or basically don't want to be accountable for their choices and pass the buck.
> 
> People who can't be vaccinated on medical grounds I don't count in the above sentence.





Punkawallah said:


> The NZ president was answering a question on whether her policy to exclude non-vaccinated people would create a two-tier society. She smilingly acknowledged this.


Lat time I looked Jacinda was Prime Minister of New Zealand and HRH Queen Elizabeth was at the top of the organisation chart!


----------



## Mike Ayling (13 Nov 2021)

Here in Victoria Oz we are required to scan the gummint QR which identifies each venue that we enter using the gummint app on our phones. The app also has details of our vaccination status and if un vaccinated the venue is supposed to refuse admission.
A very embarrased cyclist was refused entry to a coffee shop on a local ride last Saturday. The demographic was seniors/retirees.
He was not vocal about his status so we never knew!

Mike


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

Hmmm. I thought that anti-vaxxers here in the UK were dangerous primarily because of their malign influence on others, and the resulting reduction in vaccination rates leading to an increase in both transmission and infection rates and a greater risk of severe illness especially in the unvaccinated, but it would appear there are other dangers if they're around ... Covid conspiracists jailed for buying pistol (BBC website).


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Hmmm. I thought that anti-vaxxers here in the UK were dangerous primarily because of their malign influence on others, and the resulting reduction in vaccination rates leading to an increase in both transmission and infection rates and a greater risk of severe illness especially in the unvaccinated, but it would appear there are other dangers if they're around ... Covid conspiracists jailed for buying pistol (BBC website).



Also I have frequently seen them saying to send people to the gallows, I have had one say to me there is a special place in hell for people like me, and a noose waiting at the gallows. 

It just takes one unhinged individual to do something daft.


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Nov 2021)

This is in response to myself posting ONS numbers, statista numbers, and other corroborating numbers from other countries. 

And this is just one case of someone saying this to me. 






I have never seen pro vax saying stuff like this to the anti side.


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I have never seen pro vax saying stuff like this to the anti side.



You are correct. 
Were there not also anti-vaxxers threatening a 'Nuremburg trial' scenario for medical and nursing staff?
I will continue to assert that they are gullible and/or stupid, and that I don't want to associate with them, but I wish nothing else on them other than an attack of common sense!


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

Oh, and I'll mock them, too.
Particularly the latest - an 'osteopathic physician' who listed ingredients for a bath she claimed to “detox the vaxx” for those who obtained a Covid-19 vaccine under the vaccine mandate in the US. Now at first I thought, good for her, she's playing them at their own game - but then I realised that no, she is one of them and _deep_ into being one of them when this so-called physician claimed she saw a “self-aware organism point at her from a sterile Covid-19 vaccine sample.” 

WT merry F... ...east of Stephen is _that_ about? Sea Monkeys?


----------



## Oldhippy (13 Nov 2021)

Nutcases one and all.


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Oh, and I'll mock them, too.
> Particularly the latest - an 'osteopathic physician' who listed ingredients for a bath she claimed to “detox the vaxx” for those who obtained a Covid-19 vaccine under the vaccine mandate in the US. Now at first I thought, good for her, she's playing them at their own game - but then I realised that no, she is one of them and _deep_ into being one of them when this so-called physician claimed she saw a “self-aware organism point at her from a sterile Covid-19 vaccine sample.”
> 
> WT merry F... ...east of Stephen is _that_ about? Sea Monkeys?



If that was Carrie Madej? She is loco. 

She has appeared on the Stew Peters show, it’s online show that is basically professional misinformation spreading.


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> If that was Carrie Madej? She is loco.
> 
> She has appeared on the Stew Peters show, it’s online show that is basically professional misinformation spreading.


Yes I believe it was. An utter nutcase. She's got less sense than a sea monkey!


----------



## winjim (13 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> If you had read my post, you would have seen that I said AND OTHER VICTIMS, so as to miss out NO-ONE. Not the mentally ill, the developmentally-delayed, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the deaf, Communists, those with physical deformities and disabilities, political dissidents .... in fact the five million dead out of the total of eleven million.
> 
> And - if you insist on arguing about who was first in line for the concentration camps - I have been led to understand that the first concentration camp to be established, Dachau, was populated initially by Communists, and in later years, various experiments with mass killing machines culminated in 500 Soviet POWs being 'successfully' gassed to death with the pesticide Zyklon-B, which resulted in huge orders being placed for the chemical and the gassing apparatus.
> 
> ...


I had a grandfather involved in the liberation of Bergen-Belsen. I've long believed that the only thing that should be compared with the Holocaust is actual literal genocide and that comparisons should not be made lightly.

Rather disgustingly though, this appears to be happening:


View: https://twitter.com/chadloder/status/1459224417645457408?t=nbxtCDrsPq6t0AeHKDnotg&s=19


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> I had a grandfather involved in the liberation of Bergen-Belsen. I've long believed that the only thing that should be compared with the Holocaust is actual literal genocide and that comparisons should not be made lightly.
> 
> Rather disgustingly though, this appears to be happening:
> 
> ...




I agree wholeheartedly with you, wrt comparisons. Those ignorant bags of brainless slime disgust me.


----------



## Johnno260 (13 Nov 2021)

winjim said:


> I had a grandfather involved in the liberation of Bergen-Belsen. I've long believed that the only thing that should be compared with the Holocaust is actual literal genocide and that comparisons should not be made lightly.
> 
> Rather disgustingly though, this appears to be happening:
> 
> ...




The comedian David Baddiel ripped into these people earlier, there is no comparison it’s utterly horrific they have no comprehension of real adversity and persecution. 

Also David Baddiel was threatened by the group called Peaceful protests in their telegram group for being pro vax, they said the only thing coming home was his head in a box.

Edit: the guy in the top right in the red t shirt is a piece of work as well.


----------



## shep (13 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> This is in response to myself posting ONS numbers, statista numbers, and other corroborating numbers from other countries.
> 
> And this is just one case of someone saying this to me.
> 
> ...


Still sounds like you go out of your way to interact with these people, even though you say you don't, why engage and then complain about the response you get?
You people baffle me, you really do.


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Still sounds like you go out of your way to interact with these people, even though you say you don't, why engage and then complain about the response you get?
> You baffle me, you really do.



I don't think he was complaining, as such, about the response - merely posting it as an example of how anti-vaxxers respond to their opposition - with threats of bloody violence and gruesome fates, which they offer to personally mete out, whereas the opposition merely says 'you are so stupid you don't have the brains of a brine shrimp'.


----------



## KnittyNorah (13 Nov 2021)

Well, in a few days I am off to the K&S show in Harrogate, where we must show proof of vaccination to enter the conference centre and attend workshops, and are 'strongly encouraged' to wear masks. I am not only more than happy to do so, I wouldn't have bought my tickets if there had not been these precautions in place. 
I wonder if there will be any anti-vaxxers protesting outside? If there are, I shall tell them not to be so very silly and to get out of my way.


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Still sounds like you go out of your way to interact with these people, even though you say you don't, why engage and then complain about the response you get?
> You people baffle me, you really do.



This was a case of showing how they tend to react, it was an associate of a friend who commented. 

My response to the friend was hey, this reaction is one of my issues with some people who take the anti vax stance. 

If I see people posting blatant lies I tend to say something.


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Yes I believe it was. An utter nutcase. She's got less sense than a sea monkey!



If you have Twitter you will like this, it’s satire towards the Borax lady, but also the person is quite qualified. 


View: https://twitter.com/scitimetracy/status/1459761057702899714?s=21


----------



## KnittyNorah (14 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> If you have Twitter you will like this, it’s satire towards the Borax lady, but also the person is quite qualified.
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/scitimetracy/status/1459761057702899714?s=21



Thanks - she's good is scitimetracy - a clear, pleasant, easy-listening voice with non-aggressive, eminently-straightforward responses to the frankly-stupid (but scary if you're that way inclined) arguments put forward by the anti-vaxxer crowd's 'leaders'. 
She bears listening to and making notes from, for anyone who encounters anti-vaxxer types on a regular basis, perhaps at work or in the family. I've said all along that listening to the concerned anti-vaxxer, especially if they are a friend or relative, is almost certainly much more effective than just telling them they are stupid and to shut up and go away, but she appears to have listened to their concerns (with far more patience than I'd have!) empathised with them, agreed to at least some of the principles which they espouse - and then countered them with devastatingly-sensible, reasoned arguments. 

I don't suppose for a minute that anyone deep in the quagmire would hoik themselves out of the soggy mess on hearing her but I do think that her arguments may well be useful for those who are 'fearful and wondering'.


----------



## mjr (15 Nov 2021)

shep said:


> Still sounds like you go out of your way to interact with these people, even though you say you don't, why engage and then complain about the response you get?
> You people baffle me, you really do.


Nah, someone has to be related to them and suffer fools ooppinh up on their social media.


----------



## Johnno260 (15 Nov 2021)

That’s the great thing about social media, if I have anti vax propaganda pop up on my feed I can give them actual facts, if they want to react in a bigoted or in this case dubious way I can hit unfollow.

I have said it before if I see people making misinformation claims I will post a retort with something factual from a proper source.

I have had to unfollow and unfriend more than one person who has fallen into the QAnon rabbit hole, having their every other post claiming that X person has inclinations towards minors isn’t a nice thing to see.


----------



## C R (21 Nov 2021)

Respiratory consultant talks about ICU covid cases being mostly unvaccinated, and how their patience is wearing thin with vaccine hesitancy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin


----------



## KnittyNorah (21 Nov 2021)

I am pleased to say that at the Knitting and Stitching Show I've been enjoying, every exhibitor and every visitor had to show either evidence of vaccination or a -ve LFT every time they entered the premises. 

There is also much greater encouragement - and therefore, take-up - of masking around here in this part of Yorkshire than there is at home in Lancashire. The very 'mixed' nature of attendees at the K&S Show had a lower % of mask wearers than there appears to be among the locals.
Seeing more people masking, and requiring evidence of vaccination or -ve test makes me _happy._
We need _more_ of those requirements. In those very requirements lies freedom.


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Nov 2021)

And someone took a bite even though it’s a blantant troll.


----------



## classic33 (21 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> And someone took a bite even though it’s a blantant troll.
> View attachment 618813


Preston in Yorkshire!!

And it's a 747-400, based in America.


----------



## KnittyNorah (21 Nov 2021)

Jeez how very VERY stupid can you get! 
Preston Yorkshire!!!!! 
And how even MORE stupid to take such daft bait. Less sense than a bloomin' _fish - _certainly takes the bait easier!


----------



## Johnno260 (21 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> Preston in Yorkshire!!
> 
> And it's a 747-400, based in America.
> View attachment 618814



Yup but people still fell for it. 

Also Canberra was retired in 2006.


----------



## MartinQ (21 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Jeez how very VERY stupid can you get!
> Preston Yorkshire!!!!!
> And how even MORE stupid to take such daft bait. Less sense than a bloomin' _fish - _certainly takes the bait easier!



8008135, 80085
You just know it was written by a man


----------



## classic33 (21 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Yup but people still fell for it.
> 
> Also Canberra was retired in 2006.


NASA still use them, albeit the Canadian built version.


----------



## classic33 (21 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> And someone took a bite even though it’s a blantant troll.
> View attachment 618813


I'm in favour of a similar mission over Lancashire though.


----------



## classic33 (21 Nov 2021)

There's low flying, and there's low flying!


----------



## mjr (21 Nov 2021)

Double or quits:

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/RAF_Luton/status/1461651280875687936


----------



## MartinQ (22 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> Double or quits:
> 
> View: https://mobile.twitter.com/RAF_Luton/status/1461651280875687936



Geordies in Sunderland


----------



## Ming the Merciless (22 Nov 2021)

Did you read the comment that it was a scare as they thought it was about dropping soapy water over Glasgow?


----------



## Johnno260 (22 Nov 2021)

I’m following that account now it’s hilarious.


----------



## Johnno260 (22 Nov 2021)

MartinQ said:


> Geordies in Sunderland



Some of the comments are just as funny.


----------



## Johnno260 (22 Nov 2021)

classic33 said:


> There's low flying, and there's low flying!
> View attachment 618868



Hey it’s how we mow the lawns around Duxford. 


View: https://youtu.be/4iOoiEbtf2w


Language alert if you have the sound on.


----------



## MartinQ (22 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Some of the comments are just as funny.


Not very funny then


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2021)

I don’t know why I bother with my uncle, he was blathering about how Myocarditis is only a thing from the Covid Vaccines, so I linked some papers about how it’s actually a possible issue stemming from the virus and your more likely to have it from the virus than the vaccine. 

He said all the vaccines have adreno in them, I said my understanding is only vector based vaccines would use that, he then claimed all the Covid vaccines are MRNA based….

Then as the new variants anagram is moronic he bases his whole argument it’s the “elites” rubbing the noses of the woke in the dirt. 

I don’t know why I bother trying to pull him out of wonderland as his reasoning is not really reasonable anymore. 

He also kicked off about masks and CO2 poisoning, I quite flippantly said but your hero Piers Corbyn said CO2 is the gas of life what’s your issue, you were sharing that junk the other week.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2021)

He is now comparing mask mandates to a two tier society and used Rosa Parks as an example, how you get from being asked to wear a mask to it’s discrimination and segregation to wear a mask is beyond me. 

I’m assuming not seeing the connection is a good thing.


----------



## mjr (28 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> He is now comparing mask mandates to a two tier society and used Rosa Parks as an example, how you get from being asked to wear a mask to it’s discrimination and segregation to wear a mask is beyond me.
> 
> I’m assuming not seeing the connection is a good thing.


I'd love to know whether he thinks skin colour is a personal choice like face covering!


----------



## KnittyNorah (28 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> He is now comparing mask mandates to a two tier society and used Rosa Parks as an example, how you get from being asked to wear a mask to it’s discrimination and segregation to wear a mask is beyond me.
> 
> I’m assuming not seeing the connection is a good thing.


People like that - who can't, or won't, understand the difference between an inherent characteristic and certain non-onerous personal actions which are expected of people who wish to participate fully in the society in which they choose to live - are impossible.
Perhaps you might ask him if it is acceptable that persons who are faecally incontinent be allowed to walk around in food shops, public places, lake shores, sit on seats on buses, etc, without wearing undergarments? If so, should that behaviour be permitted to continue in the presence of a typhoid or cholera epidemic?


----------



## FishFright (28 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I’m following that account now it’s hilarious.



Me too , loads of fun.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> People like that - who can't, or won't, understand the difference between an inherent characteristic and certain non-onerous personal actions which are expected of people who wish to participate fully in the society in which they choose to live - are impossible.
> Perhaps you might ask him if it is acceptable that persons who are faecally incontinent be allowed to walk around in food shops, public places, lake shores, sit on seats on buses, etc, without wearing undergarments? If so, should that behaviour be permitted to continue in the presence of a typhoid or cholera epidemic?



I can’t make him see the difference, he sees mask wearing and say racial segregation as the same thing, I don’t know even how to tackle that except to say they’re totally different things. 

I attached my tutu analogy, I know it’s not great bear in mind this is someone who also thinks unvaccinated wearing stars of David is acceptable. 

I don’t know why I bother trying to drag him back from the rabbit hole. 



mjr said:


> I'd love to know whether he thinks skin colour is a personal choice like face covering!



lol I could ask! I’m scared of what the reply will be.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2021)

This is just for fun. 

The Tweet. 






And the brutal response.


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2021)




----------



## MartinQ (28 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> This is just for fun.
> 
> The Tweet.
> View attachment 619812
> ...



I read that as unwaxed :-).
It is her body, her choice, ...


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Nov 2021)

MartinQ said:


> I read that as unwaxed :-).
> It is her body, her choice, ...



It is her choice, but they can’t cry about segregation if they’re doing it themselves. 

Choices also have consequences.


----------



## MartinQ (29 Nov 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> It is her choice, but they can’t cry about segregation if they’re doing it themselves.
> 
> Choices also have consequences.



Id cry if I waxed myself.


----------



## C R (29 Nov 2021)

Our oldest daughter is 14. Among her friends everyone is or soon will be vaccinated, except once girl, who wants to get the vaccine, but her anti vaxxer mum will not allow it. Being 14, the poor girl doesn't even have the choice of going behind her mother's back 😢.


----------



## Johnno260 (10 Dec 2021)

I watched the C4 Qanon documentary, at the end when they left Kate Shemirani's home I almost cried! lol I knew she was local to me, just not that local!!!


----------



## MartinQ (10 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I watched the C4 Qanon documentary, at the end when they left Kate Shemirani's home I almost cried! lol I knew she was local to me, just not that local!!!



Well we've answered the question in the thread's title then


----------



## Johnno260 (18 Dec 2021)

Nice to see the pseudoscience cultists descended upon London again today to ruin the last Saturday shopping day for some.

also this made me smile.


View: https://twitter.com/gavmacn/status/1472222688185880582?s=21


----------



## cougie uk (18 Dec 2021)

Absolute nobheads !


----------



## vickster (18 Dec 2021)

Indeed, they really are as thick as pig shite pillocks


----------



## KnittyNorah (18 Dec 2021)

As thick as it indeed - and _far_ less use.


----------



## Johnno260 (18 Dec 2021)

vickster said:


> Indeed, they really are as thick as pig shite pillocks



I think you just managed to insult pig shite haha


----------



## mjr (18 Dec 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> As thick as it indeed - and _far_ less use.


How do you know? Have you tried spreading them on your allotment?

There was a cluster of them by a roundabout on the A361 at lunchtime. They had signs up saying "honk if you agree" which was annoying because it's more difficult to flick Vs over the roof while steering but many were managing!


----------



## KnittyNorah (18 Dec 2021)

mjr said:


> How do you know? Have you tried spreading them on your allotment?
> 
> There was a cluster of them by a roundabout on the A361 at lunchtime. They had signs up saying "honk if you agree" which was annoying because it's more difficult to flick Vs over the roof while steering but many were managing!


I wouldn't _want_ to spread them on my allotment - why would I contaminate the good earth with such toxic junk? Pig muck, now - there's a tonic for the earth!


----------



## Landsurfer (18 Dec 2021)

Anti- Vaxxers .... Is that anyone that disagrees with the Government we have at this time ?
Why is this thread not in the NCAP .... 
Double standard MODS ?


----------



## cougie uk (18 Dec 2021)

Vaccines aren't restricted to the government. 
This is anti science. Half of them would'nt be here if their ancestors were as dumb as they are.


----------



## Rusty Nails (18 Dec 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Anti- Vaxxers .... Is that anyone that disagrees with the Government we have at this time ?
> Why is this thread not in the NCAP ....
> Double standard MODS ?


They seem to be all over the World, disagreeing with all governments.

Based on nothing more than ignorance, paranoia, gullibility and some mischief-making.


----------



## Alex321 (18 Dec 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Anti- Vaxxers .... Is that anyone that disagrees with the Government we have at this time ?
> Why is this thread not in the NCAP ....
> Double standard MODS ?


It is nothing to do with the government.

It isn't politics.


----------



## Johnno260 (18 Dec 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Anti- Vaxxers .... Is that anyone that disagrees with the Government we have at this time ?
> Why is this thread not in the NCAP ....
> Double standard MODS ?



I mean do you agree with threatening arson and violence on people?

Piers certainly does.


----------



## Johnno260 (19 Dec 2021)

Jail it seems.

https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/19/pier...axxers-to-burn-mps-offices-down-15793248/amp/

Said all vaccinated will have AIDS by March, then said get a list and hammer MP’s who voted for restrictions to death, and recommended burning down their offices, so a classy guy.


----------



## MartinQ (19 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Jail it seems.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/19/pier...axxers-to-burn-mps-offices-down-15793248/amp/
> 
> Said all vaccinated will have AIDS by March, then said get a list and hammer MP’s who voted for restrictions to death, and recommended burning down their offices, so a classy guy.



There was a similar case in Germany a few days ago
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59664076


----------



## ClichéGuevara (19 Dec 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1472207261976178694


----------



## MartinQ (19 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1472207261976178694




I guess thats "Truth" just like North Korea is a "Democratic Republic"?


----------



## C R (19 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1472207261976178694


----------



## mistyoptic (19 Dec 2021)

What was it Frazer used to say on Dad’s Army? “We’re all doomed”


----------



## Johnno260 (19 Dec 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1472207261976178694




is that meant to be music? My ears are bleeding.


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Jail it seems.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/19/pier...axxers-to-burn-mps-offices-down-15793248/amp/
> 
> Said all vaccinated will have AIDS by March, then said get a list and hammer MP’s who voted for restrictions to death, and recommended burning down their offices, so a classy guy.


Some times wonder if these sorts of types would be better ignored by press etc .


----------



## winjim (19 Dec 2021)

MartinQ said:


> I guess thats "Truth" just like North Korea is a "Democratic Republic"?


They must be furious that some zero tweet five follower nothing account has bagsied the Sikh*The*Truth twitter handle.


----------



## MartinQ (19 Dec 2021)

C R said:


>



Think you pretty much nailed it. 
Had a quick look though some of the posts and while they pretty much all lie in the absolute bonkers category, I can see how some people will be sucked in.


----------



## Landsurfer (19 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> I mean do you agree with threatening arson and violence on people?
> 
> Piers certainly does.


Piers Corbyn is a fruitcake !


----------



## mistyoptic (19 Dec 2021)

and the logical progression

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59717571


----------



## C R (19 Dec 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Piers Corbyn is a fruitcake !


And a swivel eyed lunatic.


----------



## Landsurfer (19 Dec 2021)

He’s not a swivel eyed lunatic.......
He’s a very naughty boy .......!


----------



## Johnno260 (19 Dec 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Piers Corbyn is a fruitcake !



haha 100%


----------



## Johnno260 (28 Dec 2021)

Language alert.


View: https://twitter.com/jimmycarr/status/1465288659473678339?s=21


----------



## mustang1 (30 Dec 2021)

Me: So, why haven't you taken your booster jab?
Anti-Vaxxer: the moon landings were fake.
Me: errr, what's that got to do with the jab?
AV: you're the kind of person who says light takes 8 minutes to travel from the sun.
Me: well, it does.
AV: you see, you're all the same. The government wants to put microchips in me and control me.
Me: you blxxdy need controlling mate, i'm outta here.
AV: where are you going?... did you hear about the flouride in the water? I read that flouride is poisonous! And they wash diesel truck engines with Diet Coke. Did you ever think about that? Come back, where are you going? I read it on the internet. You can google it yourself! You give me a headache. Where's my aspirin....


----------



## Johnno260 (30 Dec 2021)

mustang1 said:


> Me: So, why haven't you taken your booster jab?
> Anti-Vaxxer: the moon landings were fake.
> Me: errr, what's that got to do with the jab?
> AV: you're the kind of person who says light takes 8 minutes to travel from the sun.
> ...



lol this is literally how my uncle speaks, and yes he is a flat earther as well! haha man this made me smile haha


----------



## Johnno260 (30 Dec 2021)

Common law court, the guy says he is a constable of the common law court! lol do we have any ex law enforcement here to tell us wtf they're talking about haha.


View: https://twitter.com/mohamme09073545/status/1476364418090999817?s=21


----------



## vickster (30 Dec 2021)

A regular accordance?


----------



## Johnno260 (30 Dec 2021)

vickster said:


> A regular accordance?



haha well it's a typo and Twitter doesn't allow you to edit a post for typos which is annoying.


----------



## Alex321 (30 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> Common law court, the guy says he is a constable of the common law court! lol do we have any ex law enforcement here to tell us wtf they're talking about haha.
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/mohamme09073545/status/1476364418090999817?s=21



I thought the "Soveriegn Citizen" nonsense was just a US thing. Didn't realise we had morons trying it over here as well. 

But it is even less viable here than it is there. And it really doesn't work over there.


----------



## C R (30 Dec 2021)

A bit of background on sovereign batshittery here: https://rainbow.chard.org/2011/11/10/sovereign-citizens-in-the-uk-a-study-in-nonsense/
With further references within.


----------



## mustang1 (30 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> lol this is literally how my uncle speaks, and yes he is a flat earther as well! haha man this made me smile haha


Yeah, that's my SO right there.


----------



## winjim (30 Dec 2021)

C R said:


> A bit of background on sovereign batshittery here: https://rainbow.chard.org/2011/11/10/sovereign-citizens-in-the-uk-a-study-in-nonsense/
> With further references within.


Something something Magna Carta something something.


----------



## Johnno260 (30 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> I thought the "Soveriegn Citizen" nonsense was just a US thing. Didn't realise we had morons trying it over here as well.
> 
> But it is even less viable here than it is there. And it really doesn't work over there.



The best part in that tweet is when he goes on about he isn't contracted to obey the police, and they're common law constables! 

They can scream I don't consent all the way to a cell, but their opinions don't mean squat.


----------



## Landsurfer (30 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> The best part in that tweet is when he goes on about he isn't contracted to obey the police, and they're common law constables!
> 
> They can scream I don't consent all the way to a cell, but their opinions don't mean squat.


Never lose sight of the fact that the police are civilians and are there to uphold the law ... not make it up as they go along.
If you want to see and hear about some great policing find the Ben Pearson podcasts. Sad and hilarious at the same time .... The truck driver dressed as a schoolgirl is mad .....


----------



## Johnno260 (30 Dec 2021)

Landsurfer said:


> Never lose sight of the fact that the police are civilians and are there to uphold the law ... not make it up as they go along.
> If you want to see and hear about some great policing find the Ben Pearson podcasts. Sad and hilarious at the same time .... The truck driver dressed as a schoolgirl is mad .....



True but screaming I don’t consent to a law doesn’t make them exempt as they seem to think, also bear in mind these people tend to avoid taxes, they won’t tax/insure cars etc


----------



## MichaelW2 (30 Dec 2021)

Alex321 said:


> I thought the "Soveriegn Citizen" nonsense was just a US thing. Didn't realise we had morons trying it over here as well.
> 
> But it is even less viable here than it is there. And it really doesn't work over there.


There is only one "sovereign citizen" in the United Kingdom


----------



## Landsurfer (30 Dec 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> True but screaming I don’t consent to a law doesn’t make them exempt as they seem to think, also bear in mind these people tend to avoid taxes, they won’t tax/insure cars etc


WOW ..... where did you get that data ..... !!


----------



## sheddy (30 Dec 2021)

Milton Keynes 29 Dec
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...centre-in-freedom-march-through-milton-keynes


----------



## MartinQ (30 Dec 2021)

And they protested at the panto.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (30 Dec 2021)

Oh no they didn’t !


----------



## MartinQ (30 Dec 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Oh no they didn’t !



Too easy. Thought it would have been something along the lines of Dick**** Whittington or ...


----------



## matticus (30 Dec 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Oh no they didn’t !


You see, they're not stupid. Protest at a panto and you are GUARANTEED coverage on the internet!


----------



## Ming the Merciless (30 Dec 2021)

MartinQ said:


> Too easy. Thought it would have been something along the lines of Dick**** Whittington or ...



No it would have been Snow White and the Severn dwarfs weren’t


----------



## mjr (30 Dec 2021)

sheddy said:


> Milton Keynes 29 Dec
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...centre-in-freedom-march-through-milton-keynes


Anti-vaxxers are too incompetent to find Boris's visit to a Milton Keynes vaccination centre? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/29/up-90-covid-patients-icu-unboosted-boris-johnson


----------



## mpemburn (30 Dec 2021)

If you’re feeling a lack of anti-vaxxers—or the “vaccine hesitant”—come visit Idaho, Wyoming, or any number of regions in the United States that are over-filled with “independent thinkers”. Hospital ICUs and wards are full of them. 

The two hospitals nearest us have been forced into a “crisis standard of care”. Sincerely hoping we never have to go there. In my not-so-humble opinion (and that of our Surgeon General), unvaccinated people who show up for COVID treatment should go to the back of the line.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (30 Dec 2021)

mjr said:


> Anti-vaxxers are too incompetent to find Boris's visit to a Milton Keynes vaccination centre? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/29/up-90-covid-patients-icu-unboosted-boris-johnson


well they are not the brightest sparks in the bonfire are they?

Which is why the troll sites present their evidence with links to official documents that are many many pages long with a lot of long words (i.e. more than 1 syllable)
I have followed some of the links and the 'evidence' often contradicts what they say it says - but you have to READ a lot to get there


----------



## KnittyNorah (30 Dec 2021)

The anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists certainly have a history of 'mistaking' their destinations, don't they?! Just thinking back to the time they thought they were going to the main BBC studios, but it was a block of flats - or was that when they went to ITV instead? - and several others that I remember with amusement!


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (30 Dec 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> The anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists certainly have a history of 'mistaking' their destinations, don't they?! Just thinking back to the time they thought they were going to the main BBC studios, but it was a block of flats - or was that when they went to ITV instead? - and several others that I remember with amusement!


It is quite amusing

but then you have to remember that they are literally causing people to die needlessly


----------



## KnittyNorah (30 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> It is quite amusing
> 
> but then you have to remember that they are literally causing people to die needlessly



And causing widespread fear and alarm when they turn up with their dire threats and warnings on the doorsteps of people who are just going about their perfectly normal daily business, whether that be people doing a very necessary job, as in the Testing unit, or people just wanting to live peacefully in their own homes


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (30 Dec 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> And causing widespread fear and alarm when they turn up with their dire threats and warnings on the doorsteps of people who are just going about their perfectly normal daily business, whether that be people doing a very necessary job, as in the Testing unit, or people just wanting to live peacefully in their own homes


Yes but you have to balance that against their FREEDOM

not yours - obviously - because they are infringing that themselves


----------



## KnittyNorah (30 Dec 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Yes but you have to balance that against their FREEDOM
> 
> not yours - obviously - because they are infringing that themselves



You maid a spelin missteak they're. It's FREE -DUMB.


----------



## mjr (30 Dec 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> or people just wanting to live peacefully in their own homes


...in the ITV studios(!)


----------



## C R (31 Dec 2021)

A government scientific advisor gives a flavour of the kind of correspondence he gets.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ntist-heres-a-sample-of-the-abuse-in-my-inbox


----------



## Johnno260 (2 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> WOW ..... where did you get that data ..... !!


The numpty ones who tried to remove a dementia patient from hospital told the police we don’t consent to you and have no contract with you, all typical sovereign citizen phrases.

They also called themselves common law constables. lol

Jamie “Freemen” always posts nonsense like this as well, it’s a common theme amoung Sov Citz.


View: https://twitter.com/shayan86/status/1450847697892696086?s=21


View: https://twitter.com/mohamme09073545/status/1476364418090999817?s=21


----------



## Johnno260 (2 Jan 2022)

Seems they are meeting in the woods now! 

Alpha Men Assemble! 


View: https://twitter.com/sfinn80/status/1477266309201207298?s=21


----------



## Landsurfer (2 Jan 2022)

Sorry my mistake .... I meant how do you know they haven’t taxed / insured their cars .... is there a web site ?


----------



## Johnno260 (2 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Sorry my mistake .... I meant how do you know they haven’t taxed / insured their cars .... is there a web site ?


Many of them brag about it on social media and then get fines from the DVLA as they have uploaded the evidence incriminating them selves haha


----------



## ianrauk (2 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Sorry my mistake .... I meant how do you know they haven’t taxed / insured their cars .... is there a web site ?


Checking if a car is taxed is easy to do on the government website


----------



## Johnno260 (2 Jan 2022)

ianrauk said:


> Checking if a car is taxed is easy to do on the government website


I’m evil I shopped some boy racers using my road as a race track a few months back using that website.


----------



## Landsurfer (2 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> I’m evil I shopped some boy racers using my road as a race track a few months back using that website.


I’m sure it made a pleasant change from reporting people for going jogging during lockdown .......


----------



## Johnno260 (2 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> I’m sure it made a pleasant change from reporting people for going jogging during lockdown .......



I reported no one for jogging.

So you think reporting oiks for doing well over the speed limit is a bad thing? If they kill them selves fine, but how is it fair if they turn someone else into a grease stain?

The same idiots who had no MOT or tax, so it’s not a bad assumption to make that they had no insurance either.

Edit: bear in mind I have had someone almost T-bone my car as they were speeding on the same road, and I had children in the car so I take a dim view, he swerved across the road, mounted the curb and crossed a verge and pathway before mullering a telegraph pole and a hedge. 

I have also been a victim of a serious accident due to a speeding driver.


----------



## Landsurfer (2 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> I reported no one for jogging.
> 
> So you think reporting oiks for doing well over the speed limit is a bad thing? If they kill them selves fine, but how is it fair if they turn someone else into a grease stain?
> 
> ...


I was joking ... hence the laughing emoji ..... humour .... try it some time ..... 
I have been the “victim” of 6 RTA’s in my 63 years .... all of those involved have been licensed, taxed, mot’d and insured ...... 
Lighten up Chap .....


----------



## Jenkins (3 Jan 2022)

There was one of those stickers directing people to a "WhiteRose" conspiracy website on the hole in the wall machine I used in Felixstowe this morning. It wasn't there when I left.


----------



## LCpl Boiled Egg (4 Jan 2022)

Jenkins said:


> There was one of those stickers directing people to a "WhiteRose" conspiracy website on the hole in the wall machine I used in Felixstowe this morning. It wasn't there when I left.



I saw one the other day that said something like "This sticker is removeable but the brain damaging chemicals in the vaccine aren't" - and do you know what? They were right - the sticker WAS removeable!


----------



## fossyant (4 Jan 2022)

Overheard a young lass (staff member in a local restaurant) saying 'you don't know what's in the booster'... 

Yes we do, it's the same vaccination you've already had, possibly a different make due to supplies.

Really... I give up.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (4 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> I’m sure it made a pleasant change from reporting people for going jogging during lockdown .......



Do you live in Derbyshire? No one was ever prevented from jogging during the lockdowns.


----------



## KnittyNorah (4 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Overheard a young lass (staff member in a local restaurant) saying 'you don't know what's in the booster'...
> 
> Yes we do, it's the same vaccination you've already had, possibly a different make due to supplies.
> 
> Really... I give up.


What's the betting she doesn't know 'what's in' half the stuff served up in the restaurant either - still less 'what's in' the products she uses every single day to cleanse, titivate and beautify herself ...


----------



## vickster (4 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> What's the betting she doesn't know 'what's in' half the stuff served up in the restaurant either - still less 'what's in' the products she uses every single day to cleanse, titivate and beautify herself ...


or that she'd be prepared to have injected into her lips and forehead ... botulinum toxin anyone


----------



## ClichéGuevara (4 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> or that she'd be prepared to have injected into her lips and forehead ... botulinum toxin anyone









France's Bogdanoff TV twins die of Covid six days apart​
Aged 72, the brothers had not been vaccinated against Covid-19.
Their friends said they were convinced their healthy lifestyle would protect them and they were admitted to hospital in mid-December.
Although their families did not specify the cause of their deaths, their lawyer Edouard de Lamaze confirmed they had both contracted the virus.
Family friend Pierre-Jean Chalençon said they had left it too late to seek hospital treatment, deciding it was similar to flu. "People have said they were anti-vaxxers but they absolutely weren't," he told BFMTV. "Several friends told them to get themselves vaccinated but they felt because of their lifestyle and their [lack of] comorbidity, they weren't at risk of Covid."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59867046


----------



## vickster (4 Jan 2022)

Grooms of Wildenstein? #
Modelled themselves on Mick Jagger?


----------



## sheddy (5 Jan 2022)

Essential listening (50mins) 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0012b15/the-richard-dimbleby-lecture-dame-sarah-gilbert


----------



## Fab Foodie (5 Jan 2022)

Maron's not taking any merde it seems....
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ovid-strategy-is-to-piss-off-the-unvaccinated

The 'eaumarcron' varient is rife in France apparently.....


----------



## matticus (5 Jan 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> The 'eaumarcron' varient is rife in France apparently.....


Now do the Irish variant joke. Go on, you know you want to!


----------



## C R (5 Jan 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> Maron's not taking any merde it seems....
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ovid-strategy-is-to-piss-off-the-unvaccinated
> 
> The 'eaumarcron' varient is rife in France apparently.....


I love this quote

“When my freedoms threaten those of others, I become someone irresponsible. Someone irresponsible is not a citizen.”


----------



## fossyant (5 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> I love this quote
> 
> “When my freedoms threaten those of others, I become someone irresponsible. Someone irresponsible is not a citizen.”



Just had to chuck this in...

“When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.”
-- Eric Cantona


----------



## matticus (5 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just had to chuck this in...
> 
> “When the seagulls follow the trawler, it is because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.”
> -- Eric Cantona


Of the two frenchmen being quoted, guess which publicly kicked someone in the head.


----------



## Johnno260 (5 Jan 2022)

matticus said:


> Of the two frenchmen being quoted, guess which publicly kicked someone in the head.



In all fairness it was a really good kick, he cleared the boarding around the edge of the pitch as well.


----------



## Fab Foodie (5 Jan 2022)

matticus said:


> Now do the Irish variant joke. Go on, you know you want to!


Shan't!


----------



## Milkfloat (5 Jan 2022)

matticus said:


> Of the two frenchmen being quoted, guess which publicly kicked someone in the head.


IIRC the other one had his bodyguard do it.


----------



## matticus (5 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> IIRC the other one had his bodyguard do it.


Touché!


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

Good grief, these people are nutters 
'Crisis actor' conspiracy theory: How anti-vax activists targeted a Covid patient https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-59896688


----------



## C R (7 Jan 2022)

The way Djocovic is made out to be some kind of martyr in Serbia is actually quite scary.


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> The way Djocovic is made out to be some kind of martyr in Serbia is actually quite scary.


What’s odd is they restrict the entry of unvaccinated too


----------



## Ajax Bay (7 Jan 2022)

I sense some plural mispronounciation being a regular feature of tennis commentaries 'for a while'.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2022)

Australia it seems


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Good grief, these people are nutters
> 'Crisis actor' conspiracy theory: How anti-vax activists targeted a Covid patient https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-59896688



They have done that a lot, there was a guy who had a IMDB profile and they said he was a crisis actor for the BBC as well:

(Actual news report)
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-58376709

(Nutters united news report)
https://www.visionnews.online/post/bbc-employ-actor-to-fake-vaccine-refusenik-report

His only shows listed were things like Lads Army and other reality TV shows, he was a Covid skeptic as well, but they still threw him under the bus, it's totally disgusting behavior.

But then what do you expect when you have people who think marching healthcare to the gallows, violence, death by hammers and arson is acceptable?


----------



## Fab Foodie (7 Jan 2022)

I know where this antivaxer's gone....
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/06/kelly-ernby-california-prosecutor-dies-covid
Tragic really.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> I know where this antivaxer's gone....
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/06/kelly-ernby-california-prosecutor-dies-covid
> Tragic really.



That’s the thing it was probably a totally preventable death, the people who really spread this nonsense like Piers Corbyn really need to be held to account.


----------



## Ajax Bay (7 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> the people who really spread this nonsense . . . really need to be held to account.


What do you recommend and what law are they breaking? It is nonsense: society needs to apply sufficient effort to overmatch the considerable efforts of these people (it seems unwilling to mobilise that counter-force). Unlike in a fair few countries around the world, we live in a liberal society.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> `[CODE][/CODE]`Good grief, these people are nutters
> 'Crisis actor' conspiracy theory: How anti-vax activists targeted a Covid patient https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-59896688





C R said:


> The way Djocovic is made out to be some kind of martyr in Serbia is actually quite scary.


It’s their rules so fair enough but it’s still like Nazi Germany. He’s not an anti vaxer he’s had vaccines before he has had polio & TB etc.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...irus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

Steve James is a genuine hero & professional.


----------



## midlife (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...irus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224
> 
> Steve James is a genuine hero & professional.



Pound to a penny he has had his mandatory Hep B vaccine..


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s their rules so fair enough but it’s still like Nazi Germany. He’s not an anti vaxer he’s had vaccines before he has had polio & TB etc.


What is like Nazi Germany?


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> What is like Nazi Germany?


People have a right as to what they put inside their bodies. If a country says sorry you can’t be here unless you’re jabbed up to date it’s Nazi like. And all for what? A form of flu you have a 99% chance of surviving. Why are people been coerced into it so much? There’s thousands of top doctors saying that our vaccines only work short term & the pros & cons need weighing up more.


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

A country can choose who it admits or not. No one forced him to go, he knows the rules…there’s a thread already discussing anyhow.

Ref the top Drs…thousands, really…go on post a list with actual evidence of what they’ve said and their qualifications as top doctors


----------



## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> I know where this antivaxer's gone....
> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/06/kelly-ernby-california-prosecutor-dies-covid
> Tragic really.


Oof, way too young.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> Pound to a penny he has had his mandatory Hep B vaccine..


Yeah I agree he will be aware that it’s more important in his line of work.


----------



## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> People have a right as to what they put inside their bodies. If a country says sorry you can’t be here unless you’re jabbed up to date it’s Nazi like. And all for what? A form of flu you have a 99% chance of surviving. Why are people been coerced into it so much? There’s thousands of top doctors saying that our vaccines only work short term & the pros & cons need weighing up more.



Oh dear, oh dear....

1% is quite a lot of people that didn't need to die.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> A country can choose who it admits or not. No one forced him to go, he knows the rules…there’s a thread already discussing anyhow


And I agree. Some countries chop the hands of petty thieves & have child brides but it’s not right.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Oh dear, oh dear....
> 
> 1% is quite a lot of people that didn't need to die.


More are going to die in other ways now though. Cancer not been found early, heart attacks, more suicides. Why have they found that children born in Covid age have lower developmental skills?


----------



## Rocky (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> More are going to die in other ways now though. Cancer not been found early, heart attacks, more suicides.


But as we are seeing, Covid is causing NHS staff sickness. People are seriously ill with Covid in hospital and taking up beds that would normally be used for other conditions.

The reason that people aren't getting diagnosed early with cancer etc isn't because of policy decisions but because of the direct impact of Covid.

Now, if only people were to get vaccinated and take other preventative measures we could all get back to normal. So actually Novax must shoulder some of the blame for the problems that people are having accessing health services. He is sending out at very selfish message.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> People have a right as to what they put inside their bodies. If a country says sorry you can’t be here unless you’re jabbed up to date it’s Nazi like. And all for what? A form of flu you have a 99% chance of surviving. Why are people been coerced into it so much? There’s thousands of top doctors saying that our vaccines only work short term & the pros & cons need weighing up more.


Death rate is actually 1.4 % - although this is probably lower with Omicron - so 1% is reasonable
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-rate/

but

hospitialisation rate is 18.41 per 100,000 people
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...es/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/hospitals

today'sUK infection rate is about 200,000 - therefore there are 17 (ish) extra people in hospital due to Covid 
and the vast majority of the people with Covid in hospital are unvainated
and this is just today

as the infection rate is rising rapidly it will be higher tomorrow
hence more people in hospital tomorrow

and each person stays in hospital for a while

it is all stacking up - and at a time when the hospitals would be pushed anyway

This is the main problem 
the hospitals can only take so many people
they were over loaded already - due to Covid and everything else

and - I'll say it again - nearly all Covid patients in UK hospitals are not vaccinated - and would therefore not be in hospital if they were vacinated

just get the jab


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

Novax wont struggle to get medical attention with his many millions


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s their rules so fair enough but it’s still like Nazi Germany. He’s not an anti vaxer he’s had vaccines before he has had polio & TB etc.


So a vaccination requirement for arrivals - who, let us not forget, are making a totally-voluntary journey to their destination country - makes that country 'like Nazi Germany'?

Angola Burkina Faso Benin Burundi Cameroon C.A.R Congo Cote D'Ivoire DR Congo Gabon Ghana Guinea-Bissau Mali Niger Nigeria Pakistan Sierra Leone Somalia South Sudan Syria Togo and Uganda, have all been mandating a specific vaccination for _all_ arrivals , or a different specific vaccination for _all _arrivals (and/or departures), for several - or even a great many - years, without any fuss, international or otherwise. Although there are many legitimate criticisms of the above-mentioned criticisms countries, no comparisons with Nazi Germany are heard about their vaccination requirements.

I do think this entire mess has been handled somewhat clumsily by both the Australian Federal Govt _and_ by Tennis Australia - but since when did clumsiness become a crime worthy of comparison with the crimes of Nazi Germany? And it has been handled - IMO - in a way that befits the most arrogant and temperamental of operatic divas by the main protagonist!


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> More are going to die in other ways now though. Cancer not been found early, heart attacks, more suicides. Why have they found that children born in Covid age have lower developmental skills?



Because they are less than two years old.


----------



## cougie uk (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> People have a right as to what they put inside their bodies. If a country says sorry you can’t be here unless you’re jabbed up to date it’s Nazi like. And all for what? A form of flu you have a 99% chance of surviving. Why are people been coerced into it so much? There’s thousands of top doctors saying that our vaccines only work short term & the pros & cons need weighing up more.


So that would be 680,000 deaths in the UK alone assuming we just gave up on virus precautions completely. 

That's COVID alone. 
We would also have broken our health care system due to the huge influx of patients and losing so many health care professionals to the virus. 

So god knows how many other diseases and injuries that we could have treated but health care has broken down completely. 

Complete madness.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> But as we are seeing, Covid is causing NHS staff sickness. People are seriously ill with Covid in hospital and taking up beds that would normally be used for other conditions.
> 
> The reason that people aren't getting diagnosed early with cancer etc isn't because of policy decisions but because of the direct impact of Covid.
> 
> Now, if only people were to get vaccinated and take other preventative measures we could all get back to normal. So actually Novax must shoulder some of the blame for the problems that people are having accessing health services. He is sending out at very selfish message.


It’s his human right to make that choice. I think abortion is wrong & is murder yet it’s legal in many countries, the women has a choice.
So the unvaxed doctors are part of the problem also. We could all chip in some charity money & save millions from starving to death also.


----------



## Rocky (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s his human right to make that choice. I think abortion is wrong & is murder yet it’s legal in many countries, the women has a choice.
> So the unvaxed doctors are part of the problem also. We could all chip in some charity money & save millions from starving to death also.


It's also a human right that I don't get infected with a serious illness from someone who couldn't be arsed to get vaccinated.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> So that would be 680,000 deaths in the UK alone assuming we just gave up on virus precautions completely.
> 
> That's COVID alone.
> We would also have broken our health care system due to the huge influx of patients and losing so many health care professionals to the virus.
> ...


In theory yes but the doctor & specialist on sky news believes something different & he’s a very intelligent man.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> It's also a human right that I don't get infected with a serious illness from someone who couldn't be arsed to get vaccinated.


That isn’t true. People can pass flu on to me if they don’t want a flu jab. Also I can have 6 shots & still pass it onto you no matter how many you’ve had.
More to add, if you had faith in your own vax & trusted it well then you wouldn’t care about unvaxed would you?


----------



## Rocky (7 Jan 2022)

@Milzy ..... worth reading John Rawls A Theory of Justice ..... 'society should be structured so that the greatest possible amount of liberty is given to its members, limited only by the notion that the liberty of any one member shall not infringe upon that of any other member'


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> In theory yes but the doctor & specialist on sky news believes something different & he’s a very intelligent man.


Is he thousands of top doctors then? How’s that list coming?


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s his human right to make that choice. I think abortion is wrong & is murder yet it’s legal in many countries, the women has a choice.
> So the unvaxed doctors are part of the problem also. *We could all chip in some charity money & save millions from starving to death also.*


Yup
and people who can afford to do so should consider it
whether or not they do is up to them


----------



## classic33 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> More are going to die in other ways now though. Cancer not been found early, heart attacks, more suicides. Why have they found that children born in Covid age have lower developmental skills?


I have epilepsy, currently not fully controlled, breast cancer and a heart condition. Two heart attacks since December 2018. Any of those three could "finish me off" at any time. 

It's 22 months since treatment for those ceased. Longer still since I was last seen in a hospital for them(routine appointment). I'll wait until the routine appointments restart.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> It's also a human right that I don't get infected with a serious illness from someone who couldn't be arsed to get vaccinated.


I was thinking the other day that if I was dating (my wife would moan - so I'm not!!!!)

and I was starting to see someone and it looks like it was "going well"

and I discovered that someone I had been 'sleeping with' a few months ago had been also 'sleeping with' several people
some of whom had come down with STIs
then I would probably be criticised if I didn;t bother to check I was OK and wouldn;t pass anything on if we did 'go better'

If I did pass something on I would not be totally shocked if she (in my case) became rather annoyed that I had just exercised my rights to not bother checking I was safe before hand

In spite of knowing there was a - possibly slight - possibility that I had something but was not showing symptoms

seems similar to me


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Because they are less than two years old.





vickster said:


> Is he thousands of top doctors then? How’s that list coming?





classic33 said:


> I have epilepsy, currently not fully controlled, breast cancer and a heart condition. Two heart attacks since December 2018. Any of those three could "finish me off" at any time.
> 
> It's 22 months since treatment for those ceased. Longer still since I was last seen in a hospital for them(routine appointment). I'll wait until the routine appointments restart.


I’m saddened about this & hope you get the treatment you need soon. My mother in law has a bad heart condition so had decided not to get vaccinated. She feels more damned if she does than doesn’t. Luckily she hasn’t caught Covid. Have you had 3 Covid jabs?


----------



## classic33 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m saddened about this & hope you get the treatment you need soon. My mother in law has a bad heart condition so had decided not to get vaccinated. She feels more damned if she does than doesn’t. Luckily she hasn’t caught Covid. Have you had 3 Covid jabs?


I went against medical advise and had one. I ended up in A&E via ambulance, from the surgery.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Is he thousands of top doctors then? How’s that list coming?


Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct. 
There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX. 

Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
Dr. Robert Malone (mRNA inventor)
Dr. Peter McCullough (most published on CV)
Dr. Vladimir Zelenko (Nobel PP Nominee)
Dr. Rima Laibow
Dr. Naomi Wolf
Dr. David Martin
Dr. Luc Montainger
Dr. Roger Hodkinson
Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche
Dr. Sherri Tenpenny
Dr. Judy Mitkovitz
Dr. Carrie Madej
Dr. Vernon Coleman
Dr. Ben Tapper
Dr. Michael Lake
Dr. Christiane Northrop
Dr. Simone Gold
Dr. Sean Brooks
Dr. Shiva Ayyadurai
Dr. Jane Ruby
Dr. Ryan Cole
Dr. Kevin Stillwagon
Dr. Afzal Niaz
Dr. Rashid A.Buttar
Dr. Paul Thomas
Dr. Vanessa Passov
Dr. Jessica Rose
Dr. Christopher Rake
Dr. Charles Hoffe
Dr. Mark Mcdonald
Dr. Jeff Barke
Dr. Andrew Kaufman
Dr. Manuel Alonso
Dr. Amir Shahar
Dr. Patrick Phillips
Dr. Bryan Ardis
Dr. Franc Zalewski
Dr. Daniel Griffin
Dr. Zandra Botha
Dr. Rochagné Kilian
Dr. Joseph Mercola
Dr. James Lyons-Weiler
Dr. Henry Ealy
Dr. Jay Bhattacharya
Dr. Michael Palmer
Dr. Eddy Bettermann MD
Dr. Harvey Risch
Dr. Steven Hotze
Dr. Dan Stock
Dr. Sam Duby
Dr. Francis Christian
Dr. Chris Milburn
Dr. John Carpay
Dr. Richard Fleming
Dr. Gina Gold
Dr. Kevin Corbett
Dr. Michael Mcdowell
Dr. John Witcher
Dr. Jim Meehan
Dr. Chris Shaw
Dr. Anne McCloskey
Dr. Reiner Fuellmich
Dr. Christiana Parks
Dr. Robert Young
Dr. Amandha Vollmer
Dr. Judy Wilyman
Dr. Michael McConville
Dr. Stella Immanuel
Dr. James Nellenschwander
Dr. Julie Ponesse
Dr. Sucharit Bhakdi
Dr. Paul Cottrell
Dr. Lee Merritt
Dr. Rochagne Killian
Dr. Larry Palevsky
Dr. Natalia Prego Cancelo
Dr. Hilde de Smet
Dr. Elizabeth Evans
Dr. Brian Hooker
Dr. Joel Hirschhorn
Dr. R. Zac Cox
Dr. Mohammed Adil
Dr. Ralph ER Sundberg
Dr. Johan Denis
Dr. Daniel Cullum
Dr. Anne Fierlafijin
Dr. Kevin Corbett
Dr. Pior Rubis
Dr. Pascal Sacre
Dr. Nicole Delepine
Dr. Lorraine Day
Dr. Yoav Yehezkelli
Dr. Nour De San
Dr. Kelly Brogan
Dr. Hervé Seligmann
Dr. Annie Bukacek
Dr. Mark Brody
Dr. Steven LaTulippe
Dr. Mark Trozzi
Dr. Scott Jensen
Dr. Byram W. Bridle
Dr. Andrew Wakefield
Dr. Larry Palevsky
Dr. Tom Cowan 
Dr. Dan Erickson
Dr. James Todaro
Dr. Joe Lapado
Dr. Richard Bartlett
Dr. Ben Edwards
Dr. Pierre Kory
Dr. Heather Gessling
Dr. Bryan Tyson
Dr. Richard Urso
Dr. John Littell
Dr. Scott Jensen
Dr. Ben Carson
Dr. Peter Schirmacher
Dr. Zandra Botha
Dr. Pamela Popper
Dr. Tom Barnett
Dr. Theresa Long
Dr. Nancy Burks
Dr. Russel Blaylock
Dr. Shiv Chopra
Dr. Suzanne Humphries
Dr. Tori Bark
Dr. Meryl Nass
Dr. Raymond Obamsawin
Dr. Ghislaine Lanctot
Dr. Robert Rowen
Dr. David Ayoub
Dr. Boyd Hailey
Dr. Roby Mitchell
Dr. Ken Stoller
Dr. Mayer Eiesenstien
Dr. Frank Engley
Dr. David Davis
Dr. Tetyana Obukhanych
Dr. Harold Butram
Dr. Kelly Brogan
Dr. RC Tent
Dr. Rebecca Carley
Dr. Andrew Moulden
Dr. Jack Wolfson
Dr. Michael Elice
Dr. Terry Wahls
Dr. Paul Thomas
Dr. Stephanie Seneff
Dr. Richard Moskowitz
Dr. Jane Orient
Dr. Richard Deth
Dr. Lucija Tomljenovic
Dr. Chris Shaw
Dr. Susan McCreadie
Dr. May Ann Block
Dr. David Brownstein
Dr. Jayne Donegan
Dr. Troy Ross
Dr. Phillip Incao
Dr. Robert Mendelson
Dr. Theressa Deisher
Dr. Sam Eggertsen
Dr. Peter Doshi
Dr. Shankara Chetty
Dr. Elizabeth Eads
Dr. Kurt Malhom
Dr. Carolyn Bosack
Dr. Heiko Shoning
Dr. Aseem Malhotra
Dr. Patricia Lee
Dr. Daniel Nagase
Dr. Mobeen Syed
Dr. Bruce Patterson
Dr. Randi Juanta
Dr. Phillip McMillan
Dr. Peter Gotzche
Dr. Kurt Malholm
Dr. Sam Sigoloff
Dr. Suzanne Humphries
Dr. Ariyana Love
Dr. Pierre Gilbert
Dr. Nathan Thompson
Dr. Scott Youngblood
Dr. Peterson Pierre
Dr. Darell Wolfe
Dr. Mary Tally Bowden
Dr. Thomas Ynges
Dr. Guido Hofmann
Dr. Anne Mcclosky
Dr. James Grundvig
Dr. Amanda Vollmer
Dr. Kevin Stillwagon
Dr. Luis Miguel de Benito
Dr. Bruce Boros
Dr. Steven Gundry
Dr. Ray Page
Dr. Tess Lawrie 
Dr. Andreas Noack
Dr. Mark Hobart
Dr. Peter Campbell
Dr. Peter Johnston
Dr. Eric Nepute 
Dr. Bradley Campbell 
Dr. Joseph Yi
Dr Robert Morse ND
Dr Piotr Witczak (biolog)
Dr Jerzy Jaskowski 
Dr H.Czerniak 
Dr. Anna Martynowska
Prof. Dolores Cahill
Prof. Retsif Levi
Prof. Maria Majewska- neurobiology


----------



## winjim (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...


Tenpenny? Mercola? Wolf?

Jesus Christ, if I get a chance I'll look up some of the other names on the list but if they're of the calibre of those three then it's a list of quacks and charlatans.


----------



## Rocky (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...


Andrew Wakefield.........mmmm I don't think we need to discuss this any further.


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

As they said ^^

i don’t think top doctors get struck off 🤣
https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2803

do the others have such auspicious qualifications that mark them out as ’top’ doctors?


----------



## Alex321 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> More are going to die in other ways now though. Cancer not been found early, heart attacks, more suicides. Why have they found that children born in Covid age have lower developmental skills?


And the main reason for that is additional pressure on the NHS from (mainly unvaccinated) people needing treatment for COVID.



Milzy said:


> It’s his human right to make that choice. I think abortion is wrong & is murder yet it’s legal in many countries, the women has a choice.
> So the unvaxed doctors are part of the problem also. We could all chip in some charity money & save millions from starving to death also.


Of course it is his human right to make that choice. But he doesn't have any "right" to enter Australia. They have the right to refuse entry to anybody who doesn't meet their entry criteria - as does any country, and I'm not aware of any which do not have some form of requirements which must be met for entry to be permitted.


----------



## Arrowfoot (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> People have a right as to what they put inside their bodies. If a country says sorry you can’t be here unless you’re jabbed up to date it’s Nazi like. And all for what? A form of flu you have a 99% chance of surviving. Why are people been coerced into it so much? There’s thousands of top doctors saying that our vaccines only work short term & the pros & cons need weighing up more.


149,000 died in the UK. 14M were infected. Yes it indeed 99% survival rate. After all its only 149,000 who died. I wondered how many would have died without the vaccine.


----------



## classic33 (7 Jan 2022)

Dr. Ken Stoller, the name I know for some reason. The link below gives a varied account, rather than just one example.

_"Kenneth Stoller’s medical license in California was revoked on February 16, 2021."_

https://vaxopedia.org/2019/06/12/who-is-kenneth-stoller/


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> 149,000 died in the UK. 14M were infected. Yes it indeed 99% survival rate. After all its only 149,000 who died. I wondered how many would have died without the vaccine.


We will never scientifically know for sure. I doubt those figures are accurate. Many have died from flu/pneumonia & been recorded for Covid.


----------



## KnittyNorah (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...


A fair proportion of that lot 
(a) aren't doctors of conventional medicine and/or
(b) are well-recognised quacks
and as a consequence, all members of any alliance of medicinal or scientific professionals which includes them is irretrievably - for me at any rate - tainted. And very badly so.


----------



## PK99 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...



One picked at random.

Simone Melissa Gold is an American physician, attorney, author, and the founder of America's Frontline Doctors, an American right-wing political organization known for spreading misinformation about the COVID-19 pandemic. Wikipedia
Known for: Founding America's Frontline Doctors, participating in the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol
Books: I Do Not Consent: My Fight Against Medical Cancel Culture


----------



## winjim (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> As they said ^^
> 
> i don’t think top doctors get struck off 🤣
> https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2803
> ...


I just picked a random name from the list that I hadn't heard of and... it wasn't good. They weren't even a doctor of any kind, let alone medicine. A crank lawyer setting up some weirdo right wing thinktank.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (7 Jan 2022)

View: https://twitter.com/DrHoenderkamp/status/1479546423817367552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1479546423817367552%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.waccoe.com%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fdrhoenderkamp%2Fstatus%2F1479546423817367552%3Fs%3D21


----------



## sheddy (7 Jan 2022)

The Difficult XXXXXXX Hotline

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPcFk4OAsn4


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2022)

62 pages of ground hog day.


----------



## classic33 (7 Jan 2022)

Word for word from twitter.

View: https://mobile.twitter.com/AntzWeb/status/1470520942392750093

Or an easier read list here,
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1470520942392750093.html


----------



## vickster (7 Jan 2022)

What makes a Nobel peace prize winner (or nominee, who apparently isn’t) a top doctor in virology, immunology or another relevant medical science?
Unless they are of course, those appear not to be (although the actual winners aren’t labelled @Milzy )


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> What makes a Nobel peace prize winner (or nominee, who apparently isn’t) a top doctor in virology, immunology or another relevant medical science?
> Unless they are of course, those appear not to be (although the actual winners aren’t labelled @Milzy )


I haven’t researched every single doctor but obviously the one recently on Sky news talking to Mr.Javid is an imbecile. I was shocked it was even on Sky with their pro government narrative to be fair in all honesty.


----------



## Ajax Bay (7 Jan 2022)

What gave his imbecility away so it was obvious?


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19...irus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224
> 
> Steve James is a genuine hero & professional.


Not really he is an idiot.


----------



## Milzy (7 Jan 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> What gave his imbecility away so it was obvious?





Johnno260 said:


> Not really he is an idiot.


Wonder how he slipped through the net. I bet his exam results were flawless.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> What do you recommend and what law are they breaking? It is nonsense: society needs to apply sufficient effort to overmatch the considerable efforts of these people (it seems unwilling to mobilise that counter-force). Unlike in a fair few countries around the world, we live in a liberal society.



I believe in beating pseudoscience with facts and science, but to be honest I don’t think it would help die hard anti vaxers as they aren’t interested in facts. 

Bear in mind you also have people like Piers Corbyn on video threatening violence and arson which I would say is inciting violence.


----------



## Rusty Nails (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I haven’t researched every single doctor but obviously the one recently on Sky news talking to Mr.Javid is an imbecile. I was shocked it was even on Sky with their pro government narrative to be fair in all honesty.


How many of the doctors on your list have you researched?

I suspect that the fact they are on the list is more important to you than the credibility of those on it.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...



Vernon Coleman: he denies AIDS exists! Masks will make people suffer dementia, and the vaccine will give everyone AIDS, he also handed his license in before it was revoked.

Robert Malone: Inflated self worth and didn’t contribute 1/2 of what he claims, also spent months slamming the vaccines, then turns out he is working with India to developed one, he also didn’t invent the MRNA vaccines, he did a small amount of work with lipids, in actuality it was 100’s if not 1000’s of doctors working together to bring that to use.

Sherri Tenpenny: The Vaccine makes you magnetic, I don’t really need to add more.

Kaufman: Germ theory doesn’t exist.

Carrie Madej: is an Osteopath that claims she found aluminium life forms in a vaccine vial.

Tom Cowan: famously quoted as saying “the heart doesn’t pump blood”

Jane Ruby: The vaccines are 99.9% Graphene Oxide.

Wakefield! lol you actually think someone who lost his medical license for falsifying results is a good source! he also had investments in a vaccine that was going up against the MMR one.

Judy Mitkovitz, wow you used her, she lied about results and then stole her falsified documents and hid on a boat thinking she couldn’t be arrested.

Naomi Wolf: The vaccine has 5G nanobots.


View: https://twitter.com/matscimatt/status/1414018907900366858?s=21
That tweet contains what a very small amount of GO looks like in a clear liquid, as the guys a materials scientist and his details and dissertation are linked as well.

Tenpenny looking like a douche in court

View: https://youtu.be/MH8zPY1CsYY

Cowan the heart isn’t a pump:

View: https://youtu.be/ZFUomLdn9aQ

Robert Malone:

View: https://twitter.com/realivermectin/status/1477729517657640962?s=21

I would go on but seriously that took me a few mins to parse through laugh uncontrollably and type this.

If these are the people you hold in some regard please look up what their claims are, tbh much of what they say is total horse excrement. If I could be bothered I could probably destroy many of the others on that list but I really cba.

Anyone who doesn’t get vaccinated can’t complain when their naff life choices have a consequence, like freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequence, if you slander someone they can take you to court.

As for the whole Australia and Novak thing, that country is notoriously strict with immigration laws, what did he expect! just because they’re strict doesn’t make them a Nazi and tbh mentioning that to try and make a damming statement is a little reductio ad hitlerum, to me it’s just you can’t make a coherent point so I will throw out a slur to get peoples back up.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> We will never scientifically know for sure. I doubt those figures are accurate. Many have died from flu/pneumonia & been recorded for Covid.



Except the PCR test can tell the difference. 

Also bear in mind a positive test can have the genome tested for the variant as well. 

Your positive claim “ many have died from flu/pneumonia” prove it, it’s called the burden of proof.


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2022)

Gone to grave yards everyone, when will they ever learn, when will they ever learn.


----------



## Johnno260 (7 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> A fair proportion of that lot
> (a) aren't doctors of conventional medicine and/or
> (b) are well-recognised quacks
> and as a consequence, all members of any alliance of medicinal or scientific professionals which includes them is irretrievably - for me at any rate - tainted. And very badly so.



Many are nutritionists, chiropractors, and osteopaths, some have doctorates in things like economics as well (Jane Ruby).

Basically some are total cranks, some aren’t practising as they are liars and dangerous hence why I don’t use the title Dr in my other post.


----------



## Arrowfoot (8 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Word for word from twitter.
> 
> View: https://mobile.twitter.com/AntzWeb/status/1470520942392750093
> 
> ...



I genuinely thought it came from some research, some doubts and some concerns and views formed. Then your post. 

Yes word for word. We are no longer in the realm of a debate or discussion.


----------



## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...


NAOMI WOLF? 
LOL !!

I suSpEcT ResT Of Your LDt MighT ALSO bE FUll OF CRAckPoTS.

SOrRY ABoUT THe CapS BUt MY PHoNE HAtES ThE FoRUM UPgRAdE


----------



## Milzy (8 Jan 2022)

It’s funny how our PM tells lie after lie, his party are always breaking their own rules yet you lot nod your heads to everything they publish. What ever though, I’ll enjoy my Covid week off work even though it’s a mild winter sniffle that makes 2 lines appear on a horse $h1t LFT. Free money for riding on Zwift & going for country walks. Nice.


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s funny how our PM tells lie after lie, his party are always breaking their own rules yet you lot nod your heads to everything they publish. What ever though, I’ll enjoy my Covid week off work even though it’s a mild winter sniffle that makes 2 lines appear on a horse $h1t LFT. Free money for riding on Zwift & going for country walks. Nice.


You realise you’re meant to isolate, not go out walking 

if you’re symptomatic at all, you’re also meant to get a PCR, if that’s negative, hi ho, hi ho, it’s back to work you go


----------



## Milzy (8 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> You realise you’re meant to isolate, not go out walking
> 
> if you’re symptomatic at all, you’re also meant to get a PCR, if that’s negative, hi ho, hi ho, it’s back to work you go


Who would know? My work policy is LFT positive you are out with pay & if the PCR comes back negative you can return the week after. Bear in mind it’s taking 2 days special delivery & 4 days for the results around here. Haha 😂


----------



## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s funny how our PM tells lie after lie, his party are always breaking their own rules yet you lot nod your heads to everything they publish. What ever though, I’ll enjoy my Covid week off work even though it’s a mild winter sniffle that makes 2 lines appear on a horse $h1t LFT. Free money for riding on Zwift & going for country walks. Nice.


I don't believe a word Johnson says. I do trust the medical advisers though. Not watched one of his bumbling press conferences. 
In a pandemic you look to the doctors. Not a self serving politician.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (8 Jan 2022)

I looked at this thread this morning and saw 'the list'
I thought "Damn - now I'll have to pick some and check them out and post why they are not what he said"


so - I see I was not the only one and 'the list' has been shown for what it is

many thanks to those who have taken the trouble!


----------



## Ajax Bay (8 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> I genuinely thought it came from some research


Immunonaïve?


----------



## Milzy (8 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I don't believe a word Johnson says. I do trust the medical advisers though. Not watched one of his bumbling press conferences.
> In a pandemic you look to the doctors. Not a self serving politician.


I’m sure he can get people in his pocket if he wants to though.


----------



## Arrowfoot (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m sure he can get people in his pocket if he wants to though.


If the whole World went in one direction and Johnson went the other way, you might have a case.


----------



## classic33 (8 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> I genuinely thought it came from some research, some doubts and some concerns and views formed. Then your post.
> 
> Yes word for word. We are no longer in the realm of a debate or discussion.


That name that I know on that list, Dr. Ken Stoller. I now know why I knew it, he advocated the use of liver salts in treating epilepsy.


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s funny how our PM tells lie after lie, his party are always breaking their own rules yet you lot nod your heads to everything they publish. What ever though, I’ll enjoy my Covid week off work even though it’s a mild winter sniffle that makes 2 lines appear on a horse $h1t LFT. Free money for riding on Zwift & going for country walks. Nice.


You make the mistake of mixing politics with a healthcare issue. 

So as Boris and others have done dubious things it’s ok for others to? so 2 wrongs make a right?

There are reasons I follow the data and not the politicians, read some of @Ajax Bay posts they are extremely well put together and are lead by the data.


----------



## Fab Foodie (8 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Andrew Wakefield.........mmmm I don't think we need to discuss this any further.


Nor Vernon Colrman.....


----------



## Rocky (8 Jan 2022)

Fab Foodie said:


> Nor Vernon Colrman.....


Now, if it were Vernon Levy, that would be different


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

I see he seems to have been excised from the list as posted above, but the list as posted on twitter has Kary Mullis listed as 'inventor of PCR and Nobel peace prize winner'.

The late Kary Mullis did win the Nobel Prize for inventing PCR but it was chemistry, not peace. However, he subsequently gained a reputation for AIDS denialism (and climate change IIRC), and really importantly in the context of his alleged views regarding the Covid-19 vaccine, died of pneumonia in August 2019.


----------



## newfhouse (8 Jan 2022)

I was disappointed to see "Dr." Gillian McKeith was not on the list.


----------



## Fab Foodie (8 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Now, if it were Vernon Levy, that would be different


A true man of science for whom 3.142 was a constant.....


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

newfhouse said:


> I was disappointed to see "Dr." Gillian McKeith was not on the list.


I seem to remember a similar list a few years ago regarding climate change deniers, easily debunked due to the inclusion of Piers Effing Corbyn.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (8 Jan 2022)

One of the problems comes when someone who an expect in 1 specific field start commenting on a different field

especially if the second field is similar to his/her expertise - or looks that way to an outsider - so they look genuine but actually are not an expert at all in the new field


----------



## lazybloke (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> We will never scientifically know for sure. I doubt those figures are accurate. Many have died from *flu/pneumonia *& been recorded for Covid.


It is scientific fact when a death is recorded as being "within x days of a positive Covid test".
A positive PCR test is scientific fact. We can argue about accuracy of figures and test results- no measure is perfect - but they have been shown to be highly accurate.

You fail to realise that pneumonia is _the _most common mechanism by which Covid progresses, and indeed is responsible for those familiar symptoms of cough, fever, inflamed lungs and reduced oxygen saturation.
Other infections can also cause pneumonia, but if a highly accurate test shows that covid is present, what is your motivation to look for fanciful other reasons? 

As for flu, just take a glance at the historical record and you'll see that covid deaths are far greater than flu deaths in recent years. You can also see the very significant benefit from when flu jabs commenced. Bear in mind that flu jabs have been offered to a much wider age range in the last two winters; flu is not the bogeyman that you suggest.

Covid causes massive issues for countries around the world. Yes, it's often mild, but significant percentages suffer stronger symptoms.
Staff absence affects all workplaces, particularly medical settings. Recovery can take weeks.
Long Covid can last months or be permanent.
Death is fairly permanent!
Also consider the impact on other NHS treatments, the extending waiting lists, the long waits for an ambulance. 

All of these problems are *significantly reduced *by taking simple precautions and accepting occasional jabs.
All of these problems are *exacerbated* by the idiotic opinions of nutters who deny Covid.


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> One of the problems comes when someone who an expect in 1 specific field start commenting on a different field
> 
> especially if the second field is similar to his/her expertise - or looks that way to an outsider - so they look genuine but actually are not an expert at all in the new field



Some people see Dr and assume medical Dr. 

I have seen people with doctorates in economics comment on virology issues, or in the USA some chiropractors have Dr in their title.


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2022)

newfhouse said:


> I was disappointed to see "Dr." Gillian McKeith was not on the list.


No Dr Who, Dr Seuss or Dr No either


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> I seem to remember a similar list a few years ago regarding climate change deniers, easily debunked due to the inclusion of Piers Effing Corbyn.



Piers we need more CO2 Corbyn!


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> One of the problems comes when someone who an expect in 1 specific field start commenting on a different field
> 
> especially if the second field is similar to his/her expertise - or looks that way to an outsider - so they look genuine but actually are not an expert at all in the new field


The more qualified I get, the less confident I am commenting on matters within my own field, never mind without it.


(I passed my MSc by the way, for anyone who's been following, and supportive. I guess I can now call myself a clinical biochemist, although not yet a clinical scientist, that's a protected title and should come later in the year)


----------



## FishFright (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> And I agree. Some countries chop the hands of petty thieves & have child brides but it’s not right.



And some countries will follow the US into pointless or illegal invasions which is not right either.


----------



## KnittyNorah (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s his human right to make that choice.


Along with rights come both responsibilities and consequences upon exercising them.

What we are seeing here is a toddler in adult form having a tantrum because the exercising of _what the toddler perceives_ as his rights, has had unexpected and unwanted (to the toddler) consequences.


vickster said:


> No Dr Who, Dr Seuss or Dr No either


I think the advice on C-19 from any of those three would be significantly more useful than that from many of those titled 'Dr' on the list we're talking of! At least the advice from Dr Seuss'd be in rhyme and entertaining ...


----------



## FishFright (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Here you go & you can cross check all the information is correct.
> There are two Nobel Peace Prize winners and one nominee on this list who are against the vaX.
> 
> Dr. Michael Yeadon (Former Pfizer VP)
> ...


Have you checked those all names for actually being against the vaccinations or copy and pasted a list you found on a social media post ?


----------



## Rocky (8 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> The more qualified I get, the less confident I am commenting on matters within my own field, never mind without it.
> 
> 
> (I passed my MSc by the way, for anyone who's been following, and supportive. I guess I can now call myself a clinical biochemist, although not yet a clinical scientist, that's a protected title and should come later in the year)


Many congratulations!! That’s great news


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2022)

FishFright said:


> copy and pasted a list you found on a social media post ?


Nail
On
Head


----------



## Mr Celine (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s funny how our PM tells lie after lie, his party are always breaking their own rules yet you lot nod your heads to everything they publish. What ever though, I’ll enjoy my Covid week off work even though it’s a mild winter sniffle that makes 2 lines appear on a horse $h1t LFT. Free money for riding on Zwift & going for country walks. Nice.


Our PM is completely amoral, unlike the vast majority of medical doctors.
There are of course rogue members of all professions and your list includes many rogue or discredited medics. I'm only surprised Harold Shipman isn't on it.


----------



## Profpointy (8 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> What’s odd is they restrict the entry of unvaccinated too



Be even funnier if they won't let him back in


----------



## Profpointy (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> And I agree. Some countries chop the hands of petty thieves & have child brides but it’s not right.



Fair enough for bicycle thieves though.


----------



## kapelmuur (8 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Some people see Dr and assume medical Dr.
> 
> I have seen people with doctorates in economics comment on virology issues, or in the USA some chiropractors have Dr in their title.


My daughter has a PhD in English and uses the title Dr when she is travelling because it sometimes results in her being upgraded.

She is reconsidering her policy since there was a medical emergency on a train she was a passenger on and the train manager came to ask for her assistance. She was able to quote some comforting lines of poetry though.


----------



## Bazzer (8 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Some people see Dr and assume medical Dr.
> 
> I have seen people with doctorates in economics comment on virology issues, or in the USA some chiropractors have Dr in their title.


Indeed. A former colleague of mine had a doctorate in C 19th literature. He didn't usually use it, but it came in handy when a group of us were at a social event and his car broke down and he had to call the AA.


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Many congratulations!! That’s great news


That's the easy part. Now I've got to put together a portfolio of evidence saying why I is a good scientist, which is the bit I really struggle with. Reflective practice and all that.


----------



## MartinQ (8 Jan 2022)

lazybloke said:


> It is scientific fact when a death is recorded as being "within x days of a positive Covid test".
> A positive PCR test is scientific fact. We can argue about accuracy of figures and test results- no measure is perfect - but they have been shown to be highly accurate.
> 
> You fail to realise that pneumonia is _the _most common mechanism by which Covid progresses, and indeed is responsible for those familiar symptoms of cough, fever, inflamed lungs and reduced oxygen saturation.
> ...


Spiegelhalter has done a fair bit of analysis simply looking at excess deaths over the past couple of years. In the uk, we've probably overcounted the covid deaths a bit (~15%), but they're significantly under counted in other parts of the world. A couple of months ago, I think the reported world figures were ~5million, but he was saying its more like 3 times that.
https://www.theguardian.com/theobse...ave-been-far-more-than-5-million-covid-deaths


----------



## Speicher (8 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Now, if it were Vernon Levy, that would be different


He was highly rated in the making of pie charts.


----------



## Ajax Bay (8 Jan 2022)

RIP @vernon


----------



## vickster (8 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Coleman? I mean lol what else can be said


No, presumably means a popular forum member and lover of pies who suddenly passed away a number of years back


----------



## presta (8 Jan 2022)

This one's doing the rounds on Twitter at the moment:


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> No, presumably means a popular forum member and lover of pies who suddenly passed away a number of years back



ah ok sorry I thought it was in reference to the list.

I will delete my other comment. 

I’m now thinking I want a pie as well, chicken and leek would be nice.


----------



## Milzy (8 Jan 2022)

kapelmuur said:


> My daughter has a PhD in English and uses the title Dr when she is travelling because it sometimes results in her being upgraded.
> 
> She is reconsidering her policy since there was a medical emergency on a train she was a passenger on and the train manager came to ask for her assistance. She was able to quote some comforting lines of poetry though.


It’s the same for Doctor Oliver Bridgwood from the GCN show. He can name all the elements of the periodic table as they’re having a seizure.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Jan 2022)

kapelmuur said:


> My daughter has a PhD in English and uses the title Dr when she is travelling because it sometimes results in her being upgraded.
> 
> She is reconsidering her policy since there was a medical emergency on a train she was a passenger on and the train manager came to ask for her assistance. She was able to quote some comforting lines of poetry though.



I use emperor and am usually upgraded


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

I was looking through my RSC membership details and noticed that DrQuim is a real qualification. I have no idea what you need to do in order to earn it.


----------



## DRM (8 Jan 2022)

PK99 said:


> One picked at random.
> 
> Simone Melissa Gold is an American physician, attorney, author, and the founder of America's Frontline Doctors, an American right-wing political organization known for spreading misinformation about the COVID-19 pandemic. Wikipedia
> Known for: Founding America's Frontline Doctors, participating in the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol
> Books: I Do Not Consent: My Fight Against Medical Cancel Culture


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m001324r
For anyone who is interested in how such conspiracy theories start and gather momentum, the above podcast is a very good listen, and there's even a bit of a twist at the end regarding the coming storm, it revolves around Donald Trump & the storming of the Whitehouse


----------



## Rocky (8 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> I was looking through my RSC membership details and noticed that DrQuim is a real qualification. I have no idea what you need to do in order to earn it.


If you have a degree and doctorate from Oxford you put MA DPhil after your name….but who is mad Phil?


----------



## Milzy (8 Jan 2022)

We must remain friends no matter our stances & I have seen the list of those doctors are a joke now. However I truly believe the risks out weigh the benefits for jabbing children.


----------



## Rocky (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> We must remain friends no matter our stances & I have seen the list of those doctors are a joke now. However I truly believe the risks out weigh the benefits for jabbing children.


What are the risks? Could you quantify them? Can you also let us know how many young children have died of Covid and how many have suffered serious side effects from Covid. It would be very helpful if you could provide some robust evidence to support your views.

(I suggest you look at US figures as the UK isn't vaccinating 5-11 year olds at the moment).


----------



## cougie uk (8 Jan 2022)

presta said:


> This one's doing the rounds on Twitter at the moment:
> View attachment 625493


Absolute fkwits. Some people are just too awful.


----------



## Rocky (8 Jan 2022)

The New England Journal of Medicine has just published an evaluation of vaccinating children (5-11) against Covid.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116298?query=featured_home

Its conclusion: '_A Covid-19 vaccination regimen consisting of two 10-μg doses of BNT162b2 administered 21 days apart was found to be safe, immunogenic, and efficacious in children 5 to 11 years of age_'.

Why would you vaccinate these children?

_Although Covid-19 is generally milder in children than in adults, severe illness and long-term complications, including multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children (MIS-C), can occur after the primary infection. School-age children represent a high proportion of Covid-19 cases, and they may play an important role in the transmission of SARS-CoV-2, including spread of the highly transmissible B.1.617.2 (or delta) variant. At the end of September 2021, persons younger than 18 years of age represented more than a quarter of weekly U.S. cases and 1.6 to 4.2% of cumulative hospitalizations. Covid-19–associated hospitalizations among children have increased steadily since early July 2021 in the United States; prevalence among 5-to-11-year-old children reached an all-time high of 1.1 per 100,000 population in late September. The pandemic has also interrupted education and has adversely affected children’s social and emotional development and mental health. Therefore, the availability of safe and efficacious vaccines for school-age children is critical._

TLDR - yes it's safe to vaccinate 5-11 year olds and it is a good idea to do this


----------



## KnittyNorah (8 Jan 2022)

presta said:


> This one's doing the rounds on Twitter at the moment:
> View attachment 625493


That's disgusting. Utter lowlife, sewage slime puts that sort of thing up.


----------



## classic33 (8 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> The New England Journal of Medicine has just published an evaluation of vaccinating children (5-11) against Covid.
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116298?query=featured_home
> 
> ...


Ireland started vaccinating 5 - 12 year olds this week.


----------



## Alex321 (8 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It’s the same for Doctor Oliver Bridgwood from the GCN show. He can name all the elements of the periodic table as they’re having a seizure.


Indeed. But unlike many of the doctors in your list, he doesn't pretend to be a medical doctor or to have any "special" insight into COVID or the vaccines.
[EDIT] Just seen your post above accepting that the list is a joke. Thank you.


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> The New England Journal of Medicine has just published an evaluation of vaccinating children (5-11) against Covid.
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116298?query=featured_home
> 
> ...


When my wife came home from her first vaccine over a year ago our five year old asked when she could have hers and it was absolutely heartbreaking. It still is.


----------



## Landsurfer (8 Jan 2022)

Our friends and their children have all tested positive this afternoon ..... for a cold ..... we’ve all just had a barbie in the rain at ours ,,, no doubt our lot will also test positive for a cold in due course ....
Wish there was a daily test for heart disease ..... then maybe I would not be staring at the end of my life ...
But you just all enjoy your Covid obsession and forget about the 1500 that die every day ... without covid ... every day ...


----------



## glasgowcyclist (8 Jan 2022)

A bunch of them have appeared in Glasgow today. Although quite how the report can describe it as an unplanned march when they have brought so many placards and banners I don’t know.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...anti-lockdown-protest-sparks-police-response/

_Police have been called to manage an “unplanned” anti-lockdown demonstration in Scotland’s largest city._​​_The protest is believed to have been organised by Scotland Against Lockdown, a group that runs campaigns against mandatory facemasks, the Scottish and UK Governments’ Coronavirus Act 2020, social distancing and mandatory vaccines, according to its social media pages._​​_The event mainly focused on protesting against the vaccine pass scheme in place across the UK._​​_




_​​


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Absolute fkwits. Some people are just too awful.


I have seen that image shared a lot, one by an anti vax relative.

Anti vaxers are really playing the victim card at the moment, some are even putting yellow stars on and comparing themselves to Jews during the holocaust which is beyond disgusting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ndate-holocaust-republicans-b1957233.html?amp


----------



## Arrowfoot (8 Jan 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I use emperor and am usually upgraded


Nobody gets upgraded because of a title at the least a doctor. It's a long held myth. 

Upgrading works on algorithm even if someone has more points than someone else that has been upgraded. The exception is an incident on board and there is space up front and chief steward and Captain can make a decision. It is done as a service recovery. 

If medical help is needed an announcement is made for a medical doctor or nurse to assist. 20 years ago Phd grew rapidly in grievous studies, bible colleges and degree mills. No airline worth its salt will take that salutation seriously.


----------



## Johnno260 (8 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Our friends and their children have all tested positive this afternoon ..... for a cold ..... we’ve all just had a barbie in the rain at ours ,,, no doubt our lot will also test positive for a cold in due course ....
> Wish there was a daily test for heart disease ..... then maybe I would not be staring at the end of my life ...
> But you just all enjoy your Covid obsession and forget about the 1500 that die every day ... without covid ... every day ...


Just as something shares initial symptoms with a cold, that doesn’t make it a cold, your incredulity doesn’t make it a cold either. 

The latest variant may hopefully be less severe than delta but it could still hold long term implications for many. 

I personally know a few people with long Covid and it’s no laughing matter, one is still having to use a wheelchair due to fatigue issues and heart/lung damage. 

No one is saying other deaths are to be ignored, but hey the longer restrictions are put in place and the longer people don’t work together to beat this, means more hospital appointments delayed for other illnesses, my daughter who is 6 is still waiting to see a cardiologist due to a condition pre Covid, but you don’t see me whining about it.


----------



## winjim (8 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> But you just all forget about the [people] that die every day ... without covid ... every day ...


Nobody I work with is doing that and it's disrespectful to suggest that they are.


----------



## classic33 (8 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Our friends and their children have all tested positive this afternoon ..... for a cold ..... we’ve all just had a barbie in the rain at ours ,,, no doubt our lot will also test positive for a cold in due course ....
> Wish there was a daily test for heart disease ..... then maybe I would not be staring at the end of my life ...
> But you just all enjoy your Covid obsession and forget about the 1500 that die every day ... without covid ... every day ...


There's around 1,200 die every year in the UK due to epilepsy.

I don't have an obsession with covid, but the last two years I've considered a minor inconvenience. If people want to ignore the rules, as they are, can I claim against them for extending the time I've to wait until there's sufficient slack, and staff, in the system to allow the routine appointments to restart.


----------



## DCBassman (9 Jan 2022)

One thing to be clear about: it does not matter who you are, or what your qualifications are. None of it guarantees 'intelligence'. So opinions backed by "I know, I'm trained and qualified" are never the final say-so. A good pointer, maybe. Track records count fir a lot here, to a point.
Personally, there's no downside to vacs as far as I can see. And, as previously mentioned, almost all health workers in the NHS are required to have certain vacs in order to be employed. Why is this any different?


----------



## C R (9 Jan 2022)

DCBassman said:


> ...
> Personally, there's no downside to vacs as far as I can see. And, as previously mentioned, almost all health workers in the NHS are required to have certain vacs in order to be employed. Why is this any different?



Because something something ma freedoms something the nazis something something.


----------



## DCBassman (9 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Because something something ma freedoms something the nazis something something.


Exactly...


----------



## MartinQ (9 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Because something something ma freedoms something the nazis something something.


3/10. Far too coherent. Make sure you watch 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59853848
.... or maybe not ...


----------



## cougie uk (9 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Just as something shares initial symptoms with a cold, that doesn’t make it a cold, your incredulity doesn’t make it a cold either.
> 
> The latest variant may hopefully be less severe than delta but it could still hold long term implications for many.
> 
> ...





Landsurfer said:


> Our friends and their children have all tested positive this afternoon ..... for a cold ..... we’ve all just had a barbie in the rain at ours ,,, no doubt our lot will also test positive for a cold in due course ....
> Wish there was a daily test for heart disease ..... then maybe I would not be staring at the end of my life ...
> But you just all enjoy your Covid obsession and forget about the 1500 that die every day ... without covid ... every day ...


Sorry - weren't you hospitalised for COVID not so long ago ?
You know that virus you didn't take seriously with ignoring the rules in work and seeing family etc ?
Why didn't you refuse their assistance and tell them to get on with their normal work instead ?

Meanwhile the rest of us that have been sensible and taken precautions miss out on seeing family. 
Because we are trying to reduce demand on the NHS caused by more ignorant members of society.


----------



## Mo1959 (9 Jan 2022)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlEYcd1nyI


----------



## winjim (9 Jan 2022)

DCBassman said:


> One thing to be clear about: it does not matter who you are, or what your qualifications are. None of it guarantees 'intelligence'. So opinions backed by "I know, I'm trained and qualified" are never the final say-so. A good pointer, maybe. Track records count fir a lot here, to a point.
> Personally, there's no downside to vacs as far as I can see. And, as previously mentioned, almost all health workers in the NHS are required to have certain vacs in order to be employed. Why is this any different?


Hopefully somebody who's trained and qualified should be able to explain how and why they've come to a particular conclusion, and to cite the sources and evidence they've used.

Public engagement and communication is an important part of clinical practice these days. And although specific expertise in any field may be limited, many skills are transferable between disciplines. How to read a paper, evaluate the reliability of sources, assess evidence, know which guidelines to follow etc.

But 'I am trained and qualified' is not a good argument in and of itself.


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Jan 2022)

DCBassman said:


> One thing to be clear about: it does not matter who you are, or what your qualifications are. None of it guarantees 'intelligence'. So opinions backed by "I know, I'm trained and qualified" are never the final say-so. A good pointer, maybe. Track records count fir a lot here, to a point.
> Personally, there's no downside to vacs as far as I can see. And, as previously mentioned, almost all health workers in the NHS are required to have certain vacs in order to be employed. Why is this any different?


I’m pretty sure the armed forces have mandatory vaccinations as well? Yet you don’t see people complaining about those.


----------



## winjim (9 Jan 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlEYcd1nyI



And in today's episode of 'men talk over women'...


----------



## midlife (9 Jan 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOlEYcd1nyI




That was covered a few pages back in this thread.


----------



## Mo1959 (9 Jan 2022)

midlife said:


> That was covered a few pages back in this thread.


Another one that wants to stop mass vaccination and start to live with it and look for other methods. Sounds sensible to me.


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Jan 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> Another one that wants to stop mass vaccination and start to live with it and look for other methods. Sounds sensible to me.
> 
> 
> View attachment 625606



Why would you end a vaccination programme that’s been shown to reduce deaths? There is clear evidence showing deaths tailing off when the vaccination programme kicked in, that’s the last thing that should be halted. 

Covid is also more deadly than the flu, if anything it will hopefully just become an annual vaccination like the Flu.


----------



## Profpointy (9 Jan 2022)

kapelmuur said:


> My daughter has a PhD in English and uses the title Dr when she is travelling because it sometimes results in her being upgraded.
> 
> She is reconsidering her policy since there was a medical emergency on a train she was a passenger on and the train manager came to ask for her assistance. She was able to quote some comforting lines of poetry though.



A pal of mine with a PhD had heard the same thing about free upgrades, but foresaw being asked for assistance and being rumbled when he asked " what seems to be the trouble with your laser?"


----------



## MontyVeda (9 Jan 2022)

I'm thinking about becoming an anti-vaxxer... just to give the other two some company. 

Where do i start?


----------



## FishFright (9 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I'm thinking about becoming an anti-vaxxer... just to give the other two some company.
> 
> Where do i start?



Just make stuff up as you go along, you'll soon fit in .


----------



## MartinQ (9 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I'm thinking about becoming an anti-vaxxer... just to give the other two some company.
> 
> Where do i start?


Remember you have to think for yourself ... work it out for yourself ....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbzSif78qQ&ab_channel=lucasbeer


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (9 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I'm thinking about becoming an anti-vaxxer... just to give the other two some company.
> 
> Where do i start?


Study the assembled works of Piers Corbyn and David Icke maybe?

They should point you to some 'interesting' things you can research on the WWW
make certain not to look at any stuff done by proper science people - they can;t be trusted

May as well have a go at Flat Earth while you are at it.

Naturally - before you start - ensure that there are no wifi or mobile phone signals in your house
and get a shield to mount in front of you screen to protect from the radiation from that
(note - be careful after dark - light bulbs are know to emit radiation between IR and UV frequancies!)
in fact better move house to somewhere away from the masts
Not sure how you stop Radio 1 or Radio 2 signals?? Have they been properly tested for safety around people???? Radio 4 is probably OK

Let us know how you get on - if you think it is safe to use you computer
In fact maybe stop using electricity at all - those electromagnetic waves can;t be doing you any good!!!


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Study the assembled works of Piers Corbyn and David Icke maybe?
> 
> They should point you to some 'interesting' things you can research on the WWW
> make certain not to look at any stuff done by proper science people - they can;t be trusted
> ...


 
Mark Steele sells wifi shields haha


----------



## MartinQ (9 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Mark Steele sells wifi shields haha


These ones
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59703523
Or you could get a £340 "anti" 5G usb stick


----------



## C R (9 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I'm thinking about becoming an anti-vaxxer... just to give the other two some company.
> 
> Where do i start?


What all the others have said, but also, don't use punctuation, and make sure to add random all caps words and apostrophes to your online musings.


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Jan 2022)

MartinQ said:


> These ones
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-59703523
> Or you could get a £340 "anti" 5G usb stick



haha saw that medallion thing that was nuts, and yea £340 for the anti 5G USB. 

Follow the money as they say. 

Just remember Steele is a very very expert. 


View: https://youtu.be/zzxFBZl4UaM


----------



## MontyVeda (9 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> ...
> Not sure how you stop Radio 1 or Radio 2 signals?? Have they been properly tested for safety around people???? Radio 4 is probably OK
> ...


I listen to BBC 6music and have it on good authority that both Radio1 and Radio2 were closed down years ago. Shame really as I used to enjoy a bit of DLT 

I've been listening to a lot of R4 but I reckon that's a bit too pro-vax for the new me... so will probably avoid that. It's just a Govt properganda machine anyhoo.


----------



## C R (9 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I listen to BBC 6music and have it on good authority that both Radio1 and Radio2 were closed down years ago. Shame really as I used to enjoy a bit of DLT
> 
> I've been listening to a lot of R4 but I reckon that's a bit too pro-vax for the new me... so will probably avoid that. It's just a Govt properganda machine anyhoo.


Your getin their but two many punturations in you're post


----------



## farfromtheland (9 Jan 2022)

King’s College Hospital...
https://www.ladbible.com/news/sajid...nated-icu-doctor-over-mandatory-jabs-20220108


----------



## vickster (9 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> King’s College Hospital...
> https://www.ladbible.com/news/sajid...nated-icu-doctor-over-mandatory-jabs-20220108


Not again


----------



## farfromtheland (9 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Not again


Sorry, repeat post. Does give some background though.

I work with 2 people on the NHS front line. Should they really be sacked if they show immunity?


----------



## Johnno260 (9 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> Sorry, repeat post. Does give some background though.
> 
> I work with 2 people on the NHS front line. Should they really be sacked if they show immunity?



Recovery from infection doesn’t guarantee protection, in fact 1 in 5 may not get anything. 

https://covid.joinzoe.com/post/covid-infection-antibodies-protection

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...tural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know?amp=true


----------



## Ajax Bay (9 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> There is clear evidence showing deaths tailing off when the vaccination programme kicked in, that’s the last thing that should be halted.
> Covid is also more deadly than the flu, if anything it will hopefully just become an annual vaccination like the Flu.


Johnno - on your first point, don't confuse correlation with causation (as @mjr is wont to say). It could just as likely be that a combination of natural immunity (by previous infection) plus the effect of mass vaccination (over 12s) has curtailed the increase in cases: the susceptible population has shrunk. Recall that 10M cases have been recorded since July and the relationship between recorded cases and ONS infected data suggests this is likely 20M with some natural immunity (waned to a greater or lesser extent).
Dix is arguing that continued MASS vaccination should be halted (and JCVI is with him on that, at present). The national annual flu vaccination programme is not 'mass vaccination'. In autumn 2019 it was 65s and over (I think) and that threshold has "temporarily" dropped to 50, plus children 11-16 and a list of other special cases (see link).
I suggest that it's entirely reasonable to plan for a COVID-19 booster programme to operate for (say) all over 50 (plus CEV et al), starting some time in 2022 when we have better data on waning rates.
If more people die of flu each year than die of COVID-19 from now on does that mean that "Covid is more deadly than flu"? Someone way more qualified than I will be able to let us know.


----------



## Johnno260 (10 Jan 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> Johnno - on your first point, don't confuse correlation with causation (as @mjr is wont to say). It could just as likely be that a combination of natural immunity (by previous infection) plus the effect of mass vaccination (over 12s) has curtailed the increase in cases: the susceptible population has shrunk. Recall that 10M cases have been recorded since July and the relationship between recorded cases and ONS infected data suggests this is likely 20M with some natural immunity (waned to a greater or lesser extent).
> Dix is arguing that continued MASS vaccination should be halted (and JCVI is with him on that, at present). The national annual flu vaccination programme is not 'mass vaccination'. In autumn 2019 it was 65s and over (I think) and that threshold has "temporarily" dropped to 50, plus children 11-16 and a list of other special cases (see link).
> I suggest that it's entirely reasonable to plan for a COVID-19 booster programme to operate for (say) all over 50 (plus CEV et al), starting some time in 2022 when we have better data on waning rates.
> If more people die of flu each year than die of COVID-19 from now on does that mean that "Covid is more deadly than flu"? Someone way more qualified than I will be able to let us know.



Thanks Ajax your posts are always informative. 

I misread and replied badly to Dix, obviously mass vaccination can’t continue forever, we just need to boost people annually who require it, and offer vaccination to those who decide to take it, but only if the data says it’s required. 

I would like them to post some more information about natural protection as I have seen some articles suggest it can wane quickly and one from John Hopkins said 1-5 may not receive anything. 

I would also like to see better communication in the future, I think that’s a huge lesson to be learnt from this whole situation, posts like yours and some others have been more helpful and informative.


----------



## KnittyNorah (10 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Thanks Ajax your posts are always informative.
> 
> I misread and replied badly to Dix, obviously mass vaccination can’t continue forever, we just need to boost people annually who require it, and offer vaccination to those who decide to take it, but only if the data says it’s required.
> 
> ...


There's a v. interesting article on the Zoe study here website about the duration, level etc of naturally-acquired immunity compared with vaccine-induced; it's dated last October so there might be changes due to it soon ...


----------



## Arrowfoot (10 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I work with 2 people on the NHS front line. Should they really be sacked if they show immunity?


Emotive words - "front line" but it does not advance the argument. There should not be 2 sets of rules. Unless there is an underlying medical condition that allows exemption, it should not be an option. It is also about patient safety. Immunity has recently sprung up and Djokovic is running along those lines. Well his first infection did not stop his second. Where do we go from here? We need to stop clutching at straws.

If they feel strongly, ask them to find a job where they are not in contact with people. 90% of Kings College Hospital staff have been vaccinated. Surely the 90% are not meeks or lambs to the slaughter, many for them are doctors and nurses.

We are all at the mercy of qualified experts. And many of us do so for the benefit of society as well as for us.


----------



## Johnno260 (10 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> There's a v. interesting article on the Zoe study here website about the duration, level etc of naturally-acquired immunity compared with vaccine-induced; it's dated last October so there might be changes due to it soon ...



ah I’m glad you said ZOE as that’s one of the articles I had read, along with this John Hopkins one:

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea.../covid-natural-immunity-what-you-need-to-know

To me it’s seems as if natural protection was risky and the results seemed a little inconsistent.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Wish there was a daily test for heart disease ..... then maybe I would not be staring at the end of my life ...


Not daily, but there are tests for some types of heart problem. Some of them are incurable at present, so the main effect is you too can stare at the end of your life from the age of 8


----------



## farfromtheland (10 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> Emotive words - "front line" but it does not advance the argument. There should not be 2 sets of rules. Unless there is an underlying medical condition that allows exemption, it should not be an option. It is also about patient safety. Immunity has recently sprung up and Djokovic is running along those lines. Well his first infection did not stop his second. Where do we go from here? We need to stop clutching at straws.
> 
> If they feel strongly, ask them to find a job where they are not in contact with people. 90% of Kings College Hospital staff have been vaccinated. Surely the 90% are not meeks or lambs to the slaughter, many for them are doctors and nurses.
> 
> We are all at the mercy of qualified experts. And many of us do so for the benefit of society as well as for us.


That means yes, you think they should be sacked. A nurse in Accident and Emergencies can't exactly get a desk job. I think this is the front line by any standard. Adequate PPE is now in use there. I would rather ask why immunity testing is not offered? This is a question of good sense.

I am also more worried about the unqualified experts. Government advice on boosters, admittedly a different issue, is based on information from _September_, before Omicron.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...latestinsights/vaccines#vaccine-effectiveness

"Vaccination reduced the risk of infection during both the Alpha and Delta period. Two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine were more effective than one dose at preventing symptomatic infection. _The booster vaccine provided over 90% protection against symptomatic infection in adults aged 50 years and over."_

This is the September research the Government then cites for boosters,
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.15.21266341v1

I decided the Astra-Zeneca vaccine was well researched enough to rely on back in the spring. A Pfizer booster available now for a changed situation does not have this provenance.

I am not 'clutching at straws' to question the effectiveness of existing vaccines against Omicron. Pfizer themselves are researching a new vaccine expected to be tested by March. In the meantime long term T cell immunity from A-Z and/or resistance after infection have as good a chance of protecting us as anything else.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I am not 'clutching at straws' to question the effectiveness of existing vaccines against Omicron. Pfizer themselves are researching a new vaccine expected to be tested by March.


Development and testing of more vaccines only tells you that Pfizer develops vaccines, not anything about the current ones.

You appear to be clutching so many straws, it's difficult to see you over the bale.


> In the meantime long term T cell immunity from A-Z and/or resistance after infection have as good a chance of protecting us as anything else.


I do hope not, at least past infection, because that seems to be pretty limited.


----------



## winjim (10 Jan 2022)

Please what is NHS front line?


----------



## Alex321 (10 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> Please what is NHS front line?


The doctors and nurses treating people on a day-to-day basis.


----------



## Time Waster (10 Jan 2022)

They've gone to Australia now that they let them in. Only criteria is a tennis racket and arrogance!


----------



## Cirrus (10 Jan 2022)

Well, it appears IKEA have decided to only give statutory sick pay to those who have ti self isolate if they are un vaccinated and don't have a medical reason:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206


----------



## Alex321 (10 Jan 2022)

Cirrus said:


> Well, it appears IKEA have decided to only give statutory sick pay to those who have ti self isolate if they are un vaccinated and don't have a medical reason:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206


Seems reasonable to me.

On another topic (from that article), when did "workers" become "co-workers". I can sort of understand retail employers using the term "colleagues", but I really don't understand why that one.


----------



## farfromtheland (10 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> Development and testing of more vaccines only tells you that Pfizer develops vaccines, not anything about the current ones.
> You appear to be clutching so many straws, it's difficult to see you over the bale.


I'm doing my best to read the source research carefully.

The importance of the body's T cell response as contrasted with in vitro antibody production is under-reported
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-...n-why-immunity-is-about-more-than-antibodies/
"Potential for long-term immunity
Early research suggests that the antibodies in people infected with SARS-CoV-2 dropped significantly within 2 to 3 months [21,22], causing concern that humoral immunity against the virus may decline rapidly. However, it is a normal part of the immune response that antibody levels fall after an infection has resolved [23]. For example, in seasonal coronavirus infections, antibodies start to decline at about a week after infection and typically only last for about a year [24]. It should also be noted that memory T and B cells are formed after infection [25,26]; these can be reactivated when another infection with the same virus occurs and could provide long-lasting immunity. A preliminary study that has not yet undergone peer review has shown that memory T and B cells were found in patients with mild COVID-19 symptoms who had recovered and that these cells persisted, suggesting the potential for longer-term immunity."

Omicron is new territory. The research is not in yet.


----------



## winjim (10 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The doctors and nurses treating people on a day-to-day basis.


Nobody else? Just doctors and nurses?



Edit: listing things which belong in a category is not defining that category. Anyway carry on.


----------



## farfromtheland (10 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> Nobody else? Just doctors and nurses?
> Edit: listing things which belong in a category is not defining that category. Anyway carry on.


I used the phrase, to mean all NHS workers in direct contact with patients needing urgent treatment, especially in Accident and Emergency departments of hospitals.

There is also an implication of being more vulnerable in that work to the risks of infection (not the spread because of PPE) and of being those we need most when we as patients are most in need and also of being likely to have access to in depth information about covid, whether from experience or research.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (10 Jan 2022)

Cirrus said:


> Well, it appears IKEA have decided to only give statutory sick pay to those who have ti self isolate if they are un vaccinated and don't have a medical reason:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59930206


I originally misunderstood this post
I thought it was saying only the unvaccinated would get sick pay
It actually says they vaccinated get the normal sick pay of £400-450 (depending on location) and the UNvaccinated get the minimum - which is SSP at £96.35

just to be clear in case someone else does what I did!
My wife says several other firms have announced this

I presume people with genuine medical reasons to be unvaccinated get a pass out for this!


----------



## vickster (10 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I originally misunderstood this post
> I thought it was saying only the unvaccinated would get sick pay
> It actually says they vaccinated get the normal sick pay of £400-450 (depending on location) and the UNvaccinated get the minimum - which is SSP at £96.35
> 
> ...


It says unvaccinated without a medical reason for being unvaccinated


----------



## winjim (10 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I used the phrase, to mean all NHS workers in direct contact with patients needing urgent treatment, especially in Accident and Emergency departments of hospitals.
> 
> There is also an implication of being more vulnerable in that work to the risks of infection (not the spread because of PPE) and of being those we need most when we as patients are most in need and also of being likely to have access to in depth information about covid, whether from experience or research.


What is meant by 'direct contact' and what is the purpose of vaccination?

Also 'urgent care' if you want to go there...


----------



## Landsurfer (10 Jan 2022)

Over 50% of NHS paid staff have no clinical contact ...... why exactly are they “front Line” or “NHS Hero's” ....
My experiences with the local hospital in Rotherham over the last 10 months have shown 2 groups .... Clinicians ... who have saved my life .. .
And Administrators and Managers that left me with out food and toilets for over 24 hours while supposedly in A&E ...
In March 2020 there was a surge of administrators waving their NHS cards to get to the front of the queue in Aldi .... not clinicians .....


----------



## farfromtheland (10 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> What is meant by 'direct contact' and what is the purpose of vaccination?
> 
> Also 'urgent care' if you want to go there...


Direct contact is being close enough to touch or communicate face to face.

The purpose of vaccination is to reduce the likelihood of a person or animal suffering symptoms of an infectious disease.


----------



## winjim (10 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> Direct contact is being close enough to touch or communicate face to face.
> 
> The purpose of vaccination is to reduce the likelihood of a person or animal suffering symptoms of an infectious disease.


OK I can only really discuss acute trusts since that's where my experience is, but we've widened our definition of front line from doctors and nurses to literally every member of staff. That's fine by me but it's a massive leap.

My question about vaccination was not meaning to ask what a vaccine does, but rather what is the purpose, the goal, the reason for vaccinating specifically front line members of staff? The strategic aim if you like. I can think of several possibilities but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Although the points may be kind of moot now that we're using a definition of 'front line' that includes everybody.


----------



## MontyVeda (10 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Over 50% of NHS paid staff have no clinical contact ...... why exactly are they “front Line” or “NHS Hero's” ....
> ...


what has that statement got to do with anything stated in this thread?


----------



## lazybloke (10 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Over 50% of NHS paid staff have no clinical contact ...... why exactly are they “front Line” or “NHS Hero's” ....
> My experiences with the local hospital in Rotherham over the last 10 months have shown 2 groups .... Clinicians ... who have saved my life .. .
> And Administrators and Managers that left me with out food and toilets for over 24 hours while supposedly in A&E ...
> In March 2020 there was a surge of administrators waving their NHS cards to get to the front of the queue in Aldi .... not clinicians .....


Some would argue there are too many administrators and managers, but every organisation needs support staff; they play a *vital *role and many of them are well respected. 
They may have faced similar pressures during the pandemic as the front-line staff, they may even have worked temporarily on the front line, worked extra shifts, pitched-in, and for a short few weeks were thanked by an occasional one-minute round applause.

How quickly the public have forgotten to be grateful.


I've done plenty of public service work but have never held a blue light card. If I qualified for one, why would i not use it?


----------



## farfromtheland (10 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> OK I can only really discuss acute trusts since that's where my experience is, but we've widened our definition of front line from doctors and nurses to literally every member of staff. That's fine by me but it's a massive leap.
> 
> My question about vaccination was not meaning to ask what a vaccine does, but rather what is the purpose, the goal, the reason for vaccinating specifically front line members of staff? The strategic aim if you like. I can think of several possibilities but I don't want to put words in your mouth. Although the points may be kind of moot now that we're using a definition of 'front line' that includes everybody.


I think vaccination provides a measure of individual protection, or at least did pre-Omicron, but the purpose of vaccination on a workplace basis beyond that could only practically be for there to be less time taken off sick, since vaccinated people can still spread infection, without excellent PPE anyway.

Having said that there should be no punitive IKEA-style consequences in terms of sick pay. Self isolation is needed to prevent spreading covid. To make isolation more expensive is downright counterproductive, apart from the ethical issues.


----------



## MrGrumpy (10 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Why would you end a vaccination programme that’s been shown to reduce deaths? There is clear evidence showing deaths tailing off when the vaccination programme kicked in, that’s the last thing that should be halted.
> 
> Covid is also more deadly than the flu, if anything it will hopefully just become an annual vaccination like the Flu.


The poster is anti vax if I recall ? So if it’s stopped , there is no pressure to have it . Apologies if I got that wrong


----------



## Alex321 (10 Jan 2022)

Landsurfer said:


> Over 50% of NHS paid staff have no clinical contact ...... why exactly are they “front Line” or “NHS Hero's” ....


Straw man, since nobody has suggested they are.


----------



## mjr (10 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> To make isolation more expensive is downright counterproductive, apart from the ethical issues.


How about making people pay for all tests, then? Is that counterproductive? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-as-country-told-to-live-with-covid-3bpz8lnqf


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## Alex321 (10 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> How about making people pay for all tests, then? Is that counterproductive? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-as-country-told-to-live-with-covid-3bpz8lnqf


In the short term, yes.

In the longer term, both mass free tests and self-isolation will have to go. We can't live with either of those forever.


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## mjr (11 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> In the longer term, both mass free tests and self-isolation will have to go. We can't live with either of those forever.


Why the heck not? It is only free at the point of use and paid for by our health taxes in the interest of public health. The NHS provides loads of free screening tests. Will they also be charged for? It's basically a financial penalty for taking care of your health and benefitting the nation, isn't it?


----------



## winjim (11 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I think vaccination provides a measure of individual protection, or at least did pre-Omicron, but the purpose of vaccination on a workplace basis beyond that could only practically be for there to be less time taken off sick, since vaccinated people can still spread infection, without excellent PPE anyway.


So the aim of vaccinating front line NHS staff is to reduce sickness absence and maintain service continuity. In our example of an acute trust that kind of works since we've established that every single member of staff is front line but that's not by design, it's by default since they all work in the same building in which it is possible they will come into contact with patients. I don't think that staff falling into the front line category by default is really acceptable though when you're planning a strategic vaccination program.

What we haven't done is define as front line the staff who, regardless of patient contact, are essential to the running of the service. If the aim of vaccination is service continuity then these people also need to be defined as front line since without them the entire service grinds to a halt. And that's a lot of people in a lot of professions. We are way, way past just doctors and nurses as suggested upthread.


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## ebikeerwidnes (11 Jan 2022)

So - Prime Minister's Question tomorrow and last week Starmer had to back out due to a positive Covid test

So whether or not he has to miss tomorrow as well depends on the results of tests today and tomorrow

Or can he just turn up anyway as long as he brings a bottle???

(personally I would anyway and just put the bottle by the side of teh dispatch bottle with no comment - let someone ask about it)


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## vickster (11 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> So - Prime Minister's Question tomorrow and last week Starmer had to back out due to a positive Covid test
> 
> So whether or not he has to miss tomorrow as well depends on the results of tests today and tomorrow
> 
> ...


What’s that got to do with a thread on anti vaxxers?


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (11 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> What’s that got to do with a thread on anti vaxxers?


Good point - bit off topic - apologies


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Good point - bit off topic - apologies


Sort of comment that should be in NACA too


----------



## farfromtheland (11 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> So the aim of vaccinating front line NHS staff is to reduce sickness absence and maintain service continuity. In our example of an acute trust that kind of works since we've established that every single member of staff is front line but that's not by design, it's by default since they all work in the same building in which it is possible they will come into contact with patients. I don't think that staff falling into the front line category by default is really acceptable though when you're planning a strategic vaccination program.
> 
> What we haven't done is define as front line the staff who, regardless of patient contact, are essential to the running of the service. If the aim of vaccination is service continuity then these people also need to be defined as front line since without them the entire service grinds to a halt. And that's a lot of people in a lot of professions. We are way, way past just doctors and nurses as suggested upthread.


If we take a military analogy, which 'front line' lends itself to, then the other essential staff are still support staff, however essential, so we need a more nuanced approach to strategy.

Part of that, in my opinion (and a bit off topic) is giving practical workers more direction as to admin and its priorities.

Bringing it back to planning a strategic vaccination programme, public enthusiasm for vaccination has to be tempered by developments and informed by good research. The research for first wave vaccination was rushed but thorough enough and well debated. Then we sat back and assumed it was done and dusted, despite virus mutation always having been inevitable.

It seems from widespread observation and research that covid vaccination does not prevent infection, it moderates symptoms, and as things stand its effectiveness against the new Omicron is at best 'not proven'. So a thinking person, and I hope I am one, can reasonably decide that though vaccination last spring and summer was highly desirable with caution to study patients' allergic and other negative reactions, the situation has now changed with regard to booster shots of the original vaccines. Fortunately, consistent with informed predictions, the mutation we face now seems to be less virulent.

In this view makes me 'anti-vax' in the popular view so be it, but I hope not, because it's not a simple yes/no issue.


----------



## winjim (11 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> If we take a military analogy, which 'front line' lends itself to, then the other essential staff are still support staff, however essential, so we need a more nuanced approach to strategy.


That's one reason why I think we should not use the term. NHS staff are not fighting a war and they shouldn't be considered as 'heroes'. They are workers doing a job and should be properly resourced and supported, not fetishised and expected to go above and beyond what they're paid to do.


farfromtheland said:


> Part of that, in my opinion (and a bit off topic) is giving practical workers more direction as to admin and its priorities


It's not a terribly good use of resources to have staff performing tasks that could be better undertaken by experienced staff on a lower pay grade.



farfromtheland said:


> The research for first wave vaccination was rushed but thorough enough and well debated. Then we sat back and assumed it was done and dusted, despite virus mutation always having been inevitable.


Really? Because I'm about to attend my final clinic appointment in an immunogenicity trial for a booster against the beta variant, which is what was concerning scientists back in the summer.


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## ClichéGuevara (11 Jan 2022)

Are shopworkers etc front line staff?


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> Are shopworkers etc front line staff?


In the retail industry, arguably yes.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> If we take a military analogy, which 'front line' lends itself to, then the other essential staff are still support staff, however essential, so we need a more nuanced approach to strategy.
> 
> Part of that, in my opinion (and a bit off topic) is giving practical workers more direction as to admin and its priorities.
> 
> Bringing it back to planning a strategic vaccination programme, public enthusiasm for vaccination has to be tempered by developments and informed by good research. The research for first wave vaccination was rushed but thorough enough and well debated. Then we , despite virus mutation always having been inevitable.


Who "sat back and assumed it was done and dusted"?

I'm not aware of anybody who thought that.




farfromtheland said:


> It seems from widespread observation and research that covid vaccination does not prevent infection, it moderates symptoms, and as things stand its effectiveness against the new Omicron is at best 'not proven'.



It doesn't completely prevent transmission, any more than it completely prevents infection, but it most certainly very significantly reduces both.

And it appears to be still significantly reducing symptoms with Omicron, although it may not be having as much effect on transmission. Almost everybody needing intensive care with Omicron is not fully vaccinated.




farfromtheland said:


> So a thinking person, and I hope I am one, can reasonably decide that though vaccination last spring and summer was highly desirable with caution to study patients' allergic and other negative reactions, the situation has now changed with regard to booster shots of the original vaccines. Fortunately, consistent with informed predictions, the mutation we face now seems to be less virulent.
> 
> In this view makes me 'anti-vax' in the popular view so be it, but I hope not, because it's not a simple yes/no issue.



It isn't that simlpe, but you appear to be bending the facts slightly above.


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> What are the risks? Could you quantify them? Can you also let us know how many young children have died of Covid and how many have suffered serious side effects from Covid. It would be very helpful if you could provide some robust evidence to support your views.
> 
> (I suggest you look at US figures as the UK isn't vaccinating 5-11 year olds at the moment).


It seems by definition there are no trials what so ever on children so young. They do not need it, they have good enough immune systems. The vaccines are just not safe enough.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It seems by definition there are no trials what so ever on children so young. They do not need it, they have good enough immune systems. The vaccines are just not safe enough.


"It seems" you are posting complete rubbish here.
Why would it be "by definition" there are no trials. Some countries *are* vaccinating children that young - which effectively produces a trial, but even if not, there is no definition saying you can't carry out such a trial.

And where is your evidence that "The vaccines are just not safe enough."?

I have seen ZERO evidence to suggest that in anybody without some underlying medical condition that adversely affects vaccine safety, the vaccines are nearly as "unsafe" as catching COVID.


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It seems by definition there are no trials what so ever on children so young. They do not need it, they have good enough immune systems. The vaccines are just not safe enough.


 In the US, 4.8 million five to 11-year-olds had received a dose of the vaccine by 5 December, and it is certainly 'safe enough' for children in this country who are considered/known to be clinically extremely vulnerable i, to whom offers of the vaccine have already been extended. It is also being offered to those children aged 5 - 11 and living with the immunosuppressed. 

Russell Viner, professor of child and adolescent health at University College London, a member of the Government’s Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) and a past president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, said “We can be fairly sure that this is really a very safe vaccination for the five to 11-year-olds.” 
Professor Viner added. the “medical balance of risks” of giving younger children a jab would be “even more marginal than for teenagers”, HOWEVER he also said he thought that, given the broader picture, that he thinks "the balance of risks is towards vaccination”
and pointed out that current data suggested the risk of myocarditis – an inflammation of the heart which is an extremely rare side effect of some Covid jabs – was far lower in primary-school-age children compared to older teens.
It's all reported in The I so have a look there.


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## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It seems by definition there are no trials what so ever on children so young. They do not need it, they have good enough immune systems. The vaccines are just not safe enough.


But you liked this post (which summarises just such a trial and explained the harms of covid and benefits of vaccinating 5-11 year olds.



Rocky said:


> The New England Journal of Medicine has just published an evaluation of vaccinating children (5-11) against Covid.
> 
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116298?query=featured_home
> 
> ...



Surely you can’t forget liking it? Or have you got covid brain fog  ?


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## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> But you liked this post (which summarises just such a trial and explained the harms of covid and benefits of vaccinating 5-11 year olds.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely you can’t forget liking it? Or have you got covid brain fog  ?


LOL I like stuff as a respectable sign of acknowledgment even if I disagree sometimes.


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## MontyVeda (11 Jan 2022)

So... @Milzy... you acknowledged that your list of 'top' doctors was as much use as a chocolate fireguard, and your claim that no trials have been done regarding vaccinating 5-11 years olds appears to be complete hokum too, plus countless other claims throughout this thread have been debunked... are you any closer to changing your stance?


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> So... @Milzy... you acknowledged that your list of 'top' doctors was as much use as a chocolate fireguard, and your claim that no trials have been done regarding vaccinating 5-11 years olds appears to be complete hokum too, plus countless other claims throughout this thread have been debunked... are you any closer to changing your stance?


We don’t have enough studies in children.


MontyVeda said:


> So... @Milzy... you acknowledged that your list of 'top' doctors was as much use as a chocolate fireguard, and your claim that no trials have been done regarding vaccinating 5-11 years olds appears to be complete hokum too, plus countless other claims throughout this thread have been debunked... are you any closer to changing your stance?


We don’t have enough studies in children. 
What about this? 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ew-scientist-helped-invent-MRNA-vaccines.html
Do you realise the brains that man has? Why are they going after him? Because you’ve got to follow the money trail.


----------



## lazybloke (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> It seems by definition there are no trials what so ever on children so young. They do not need it, they have good enough immune systems. *The vaccines are just not safe enough.*



Without context, your statement looks alarmist.

You could add stats to reinforce your point.
Similarly, I might use stats to argue a different point of view.

I don't have those stats, but the MHRA and JCVI do have access to data, and they have determined age groups where the benefits of vaccination outweigh risks. They may use additional information from rollouts to younger children in other countries, and follow suit.. Edit: in other words, they disagree with you.

I vaccinated my children because I hoped it would protect my oldies. My oldies have escaped Covid so far; touch wood.
I also vaccinated my children so they might have some immunity/resistance if a nastier variant pops up in the near future.


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## Johnno260 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> We don’t have enough studies in children.
> 
> We don’t have enough studies in children.
> What about this?
> ...



Ah Robert Malone, he was on that list and I replied regarding him, he didn't invent the MRNA technology he did some work on lipids, this same guy spent the last few months saying about the dangers of the Covid vaccines and we should stop taking them, now here is where he went full Wakefield 1) He totally lied about his work. 2) after slamming the vaccines it comes out he is working with Indian pharma companies to manufacture a competitor.

It's all in my reply to the "list" so as they say follow the money..

Please actually do some back ground research as that list has proven you wrong a few times now.

Edit: Also in that interview and others he throws out the Nazi word left right and center, it's a pathetic attempt at discrediting anyone you see counter to you position, there is a thing called Godwins law or Reductio ad hitlerum it's basically a sad attempt to throw shade on people when you have no coherent argument against their position


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## MontyVeda (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> We don’t have enough studies in children.
> 
> We don’t have enough studies in children.
> What about this?
> ...


4.8 million not enough?

as for your DM link...


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## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Ah Robert Malone, he was on that list and I replied regarding him, he didn't invent the MRNA technology he did some work on lipids, this same guy spent the last few months saying about the dangers of the Covid vaccines and we should stop taking them, now here is where he went full Wakefield 1) He totally lied about his work. 2) after slamming the vaccines it comes out he is working with Indian pharma companies to manufacture a competitor.
> 
> It's all in my reply to the "list" so as they say follow the money..
> 
> ...


This doesn’t look good on Joe Rogan either.


----------



## farfromtheland (11 Jan 2022)

winjim said:


> It's not a terribly good use of resources to have staff performing tasks that could be better undertaken by experienced staff on a lower pay grade.


What I'd like is to have more voice for clinical staff in the running of health care.


winjim said:


> [re. research on first vaccines being rushes but thorough enough]
> Really? Because I'm about to attend my final clinic appointment in an immunogenicity trial for a booster against the beta variant, which is what was concerning scientists back in the summer.


Well they were evaluated and reported in medical journals with fair effectiveness rates. Side effects emerged later, admittedly. Astra-Zeneca at least then picked up on these. Alpha beta and delta variants were examined and found similar in the spike proteins. Omicron is significantly different.


Alex321 said:


> Who "sat back and assumed it was done and dusted"?
> 
> I'm not aware of anybody who thought that.


Youtube, for one. My observation is that boosters are being promoted as effective against Omicron. This is not proven.


Alex321 said:


> It doesn't completely prevent transmission, any more than it completely prevents infection, but it most certainly very significantly reduces both.


It significantly reduces the symptoms of infection. I think your claims on the other counts are unproven, based on source research.


Alex321 said:


> And it appears to be still significantly reducing symptoms with Omicron, although it may not be having as much effect on transmission. Almost everybody needing intensive care with Omicron is not fully vaccinated.


The mechanisms for this reduction in severity are not known. T cells are thought more significant than antibodies that are specific to earlier variants -
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-...n-why-immunity-is-about-more-than-antibodies/


Alex321 said:


> It isn't that simlpe, but you appear to be bending the facts slightly above.


Everything I have said is either my opinion, in which case i have said so, or else from medical and research papers which I have referenced. The particular one I referenced re Omicron and boosters is this one from September that the government references as of 7th January.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.15.21266341v1

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...les/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/vaccines


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## Johnno260 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> This doesn’t look good on Joe Rogan either.



Joe Rogan show does nothing but push anti vax agenda items, if you look why it was removed it was due to the guy comparing everything he didn’t agree with to the Nazi. 

Also as a side before going into that interview it broke he was working to develop a competitor vaccine, and he had spent months slamming them.


----------



## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

@Milzy ….. there are plenty of good studies on children (and I linked you to one in the New England Journal of Medicine) and covid vaccines.

Just for information, I sit on a Research Ethics Committee and we routinely get asked to review studies which involve young children. There’s a whole process of assent and consent that ensures children are not enrolled in research which is against their interests and/or they don’t want to participate in.


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## Johnno260 (11 Jan 2022)

@Milzy Also as a side note, instead of taking something like what Malone said at face value, ask an opinion, I'm sure people here are glad to help.

like I said if you look at many posts in the other Covid posts people have done great work at putting some really good information out there, people would rather equip you with good information to base things off of then you take something from a dubious source.

I can come across as a little short as to be honest I'm tired of friends and family taking the anti vaccine route or believing in something a con man said, I can spot the dishonest douche bags as I have been forced to with stuff that's been thrown around friend and family groups, like the "list" I saw so many red flag names on that straight away.

Just ask if you aren't sure.

Edit: or do a simple search, I listened to some of that podcast and it should’ve been taken down it wasn’t pleasant listening, even the Mail article says it’s was his ranting about everything being Nazi that got it taken down.


----------



## Arrowfoot (11 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> What I'd like is to have more voice for clinical staff in the running of health care.


Steve James, the consultant anaesthetist at Kings College Hospital who approached Javid could make his points to a layperson such as Javid but could not do so in front of his medical colleagues. He also can’t front the Medical ruling body as it is not his area of expertise or qualification. He also could not publish a scientific papers in peer review journal on the subject for the same reason. Hence the approach to Javid.

The naive naturally assume that he is qualified to speak on the subJect as he is medical doctor.

The Govt acts on the advice of medically qualified panel of experts hence Javid‘s retort to him which was spot on. So its clinical staff that have voice on health care. Not my mechanic or my golf coach or some politician. Politicians allocate resources and they are particularly bad at it. Why would we allow politicians to make decision on a medical course of action.

I have seen soccer mums in the US, religious zealots, alternative and pseudo science and medical individuals constantly cherry picking research to convince themselves. So what you are doing is not a surprise. So why not take your own advice and let the voice of clinical staff make the important decisions for us and society


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## KnittyNorah (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> What about this?
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ew-scientist-helped-invent-MRNA-vaccines.html
> Do you realise the brains that man has? Why are they going after him? Because you’ve got to follow the money trail.


Oh dear oh dear. I wonder what you find to _admire_ in the brain of someone who many might describe as a conman....


----------



## MontyVeda (11 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Oh dear oh dear. I wonder what you find to _admire_ in the brain of someone who many might describe as a conman....


I'm still wondering how that link answers my question regarding whether or not Milzy's stance has changed


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Don’t agree with jabbing young children. 
My QC manager triple jabbed and in hospital, he can’t breathe. We need a new vax.


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## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Don’t agree with jabbing young children.
> My QC manager triple jabbed and in hospital, he can’t breathe. We need a new vax.


Luckily you aren't in charge of the health of our children. I've provided you with evidence of the efficacy and safety of Covid vaccination for 5-11 year olds. You've ignored that evidence, preferring to base your opinions on conspiracy theories and theorists (just look at that long list of individuals you provided us with).

I'm sorry about your QC manager and I hope he/she gets better. Two questions - are we to base all our international vaccination programmes (which have been shown to be safe and effective in the vast vast majority of cases) on what allegedly has happened to one person? What would have happened to the manager, had he/she not been vaxed?

By spreading your anti-vax views on social media and amongst your friends, you are part of the problem and certainly not a solution. Sorry to be blunt, but you are ignoring the strong evidence I have provided you with.


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Don’t agree with jabbing young children.
> My QC manager triple jabbed and in hospital, he can’t breathe. We need a new vax.


So would you be willing and able to go head to head in a discussion with Prof Russell Viner? And if so, what would your main premise be against the vaccination? 
Remember he believes that it is a very fine balance in favour of vaccinations for children, and I have no doubt that the 'right evidence' would tip him the other way. 

I hope your QC manager recovers both soon and completely. Of course neither you nor we can have any idea whatsoever of any underlying co-morbidities he may have, nor if there is some previously-unknown problem with his immune response which means that he has not had any response to the vaccinations. Neither do we know whether he may have already died if he had had no vaccination. 
I never had any response to the rubella vaccination, despite having 4 (or perhaps 5) almost 40 years ago, in order to follow a certain career path. I am sure I am not unique in the world wrt lack of response to a vaccination, despite being otherwise totally healthy.


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## MontyVeda (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Don’t agree with jabbing young children.
> My QC manager triple jabbed and in hospital, he can’t breathe. We need a new vax.


I don't know if they still routinely jab young children for things like polio, measles, etc... but i certainly was and it didn't do me any harm*

How many people do you know that have had the three jabs and aren't in hospital and can breathe quite normally?? Is it more than one?

*unless of course it made me gullible to certain 'facts' regarding vaccines.


----------



## classic33 (11 Jan 2022)

Speaking as the only person to have posted a large negative result to the one of the vaccines. I'd still not be willing to say that it's unsafe for everyone based on what happened to me. That'd be plain daft.

I've heard of no-one else having the same reaction. Here, or anywhere else for that matter. I took a chance, the same sort of chance(my opinion) that someone who decided they didn't want anything injecting into them takes. How many of those take painkillers or cold remedies? Not everything is listed in a way that the average wo/man can understand on the packaging.


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## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I don't know if they still routinely jab young children for things like polio, measles, etc... but i certainly was and it didn't do me any harm*
> 
> How many people do you know that have had the three jabs and aren't in hospital and can breathe quite normally?? Is it more than one?
> 
> *unless of course it made me gullible to certain 'facts' regarding vaccines.


Vaccination of children routinely starts at 8 weeks and goes on until 14 years of age

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/nhs-vaccinations-and-when-to-have-them/

All of this is evidence based and shown to be effective and safe.


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## vickster (11 Jan 2022)

@Milzy have your children been vaccinated? If yes, why did you not object to them being jabbed?


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## FishFright (11 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> In the short term, yes.
> 
> In the longer term, both mass free tests and self-isolation will have to go. We can't live with either of those forever.



Not if we want to keep up these first class infection rates.


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> @Milzy have your children been vaccinated? If yes, why did you not object to them being jabbed?


I’m not having a 6 year old been jabbed. My wife is a paediatric community nurse & won’t have her jabbed either.


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## FishFright (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> This doesn’t look good on Joe Rogan either.



Poor Joe is suffering really badly from cannabis psychosis. Seen it too many times with people who can't manage their intake.


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m not having a 6 year old been jabbed. My wife is a paediatric community nurse & won’t have her jabbed either.


So you and your wife haven’t had any of your children vaccinated against anything?


----------



## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m not having a 6 year old been jabbed. My wife is a paediatric community nurse & won’t have her jabbed either.


And part of your wife’s job is to vaccinate children……make mine a double standard


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> So you and your wife haven’t had any of your children vaccinated against anything?


we are not antivaxers. Of course they have vaccines. Just not for Covid.


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> And part of your wife’s job is to vaccinate children……make mine a double standard


Loads of people in the NHS don’t recommend it. It’s as if they know something.


----------



## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Loads of people in the NHS don’t recommend it. It’s as if they know something.


Loads of people?? Even if that’s true, it’s as if they don’t know the current evidence. I and others have provided you with it. Your response is to come back with a list of cranks and nut cases. I think we can draw our conclusions


----------



## KnittyNorah (11 Jan 2022)

Given that homeopathy used to be available 'on the NHS' I think that what _a few _(very few, NOT 'loads of') 'people in the NHS' recommend can't _always_ be taken as 'best practice' ...


----------



## MrGrumpy (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Loads of people in the NHS don’t recommend it. It’s as if they know something.


Loads of people like how many ??!! I smell sh..te


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Loads of people?? Even if that’s true, it’s as if they don’t know the current evidence. I and others have provided you with it. Your response is to come back with a list of cranks and nut cases. I think we can draw our conclusions


Is the world really so black & white? I wish it was. Keep believing the tripe on google & Twitter where censorship constantly takes place. My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now. Maybe he needed a 4th?


----------



## Rocky (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Is the world really so black & white? I wish it was. Keep believing the tripe on google & Twitter where censorship constantly takes place. My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now. Maybe he needed a 4th?


I posted a link to the New England Journal of Medicine. It’s one of the most reputable medical journals. I’ll believe that (as will others who have a scientific training). 

Don’t try and put words in my mouth about your manager. If you want to know what I think, why not read what I posted


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> I posted a link to the New England Journal of Medicine. It’s one of the most reputable medical journals. I’ll believe that (as will others who have a scientific training).
> 
> Don’t try and put words in my mouth about your manager. If you want to know what I think, why not read what I posted


It’s a great journal. I believe the vaccines are going to be tweaked for the better in time.


----------



## classic33 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Is the world really so black & white? I wish it was. Keep believing the tripe on google & Twitter where censorship constantly takes place. My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now. Maybe he needed a 4th?


Lidocaine/Lignocaine* caused my heart to stop, within seconds of it being given, on more than one occasion. Ten years ago, the end of this month, it nearly cost two people their jobs. The A&E consultant and the nurse who used it. It was on the full records not to be used, but the A&E records were on a seperate system.

Should we now stop the use of this medication based on the reactions of one person.

*Used daily as a local, by dentists and A&E departments throughout the country. Pull teeth with no local?


----------



## Profpointy (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Is the world really so black & white? I wish it was. Keep believing the tripe on google & Twitter where censorship constantly takes place. My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now. Maybe he needed a 4th?



So we're to understand the jabs, sadly, didn't work for him, rather than the jabs made him seriously ill. I'd previously thought you were saying toe jabs had caused the illness, but I evidently misunderstood. Whilst it's really bad luck, and hope he gets away with it that's not a reason not to take the jabs

Washing your hands before preparing food / eating or after having a crap doesn't guarantee you won't get a stomach upset - but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it surely?


----------



## Johnno260 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Is the world really so black & white? I wish it was. Keep believing the tripe on google & Twitter where censorship constantly takes place. My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now. Maybe he needed a 4th?



You can use google scholar for proper peer reviewed documents, that way you avoid random people with an opinion. 

Or you can use decent sources. 

Vaccines aren’t 100% effective they never will be for any vaccine ever, but did your co-worker have underlying issues or were they in a at risk category? There are many factors in play.


----------



## farfromtheland (11 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Loads of people?? Even if that’s true, it’s as if they don’t know the current evidence. I and others have provided you with it. Your response is to come back with a list of cranks and nut cases. I think we can draw our conclusions


I have twice linked to the evidence the government rely on for recommending covid boosters for Omicron. The research they cite was published in September - before Omicron - yet their advice is that boosters are effective for Omicron.

There is no current evidence. It takes at least three months to analyse effectiveness.


----------



## Ajax Bay (11 Jan 2022)

"The MHRA and JCVI do have access to data, and they have determined age groups where the benefits of vaccination outweigh risks."
Note that this is true (thobut for under 16s) these two bodies fulfill different functions. JCVI said the benefits of vaccination did not outweigh the risks. Their current statement is here. Back in the autumn they recognised there were other benefits which might tip the balance against the (minimal) medical risks and it was passed to the 4 home nations CMOs to decide. Continuity of already adversely affected education was one key benefit, and the decision was taken to extend vaccination to that cohort. I guess the same argument can be mobilised for the under 12s.
"My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now."
Your QC work friend is unhappily suffering because they caught COVID-19; not "because the 3 jabs haven't worked".
Noone is saying "he'd be dead now if it wasn't for the 3 jabs." This is your strawman, well stuffed.
Vaccination in its various make, dose number, combination and variant encountered offers protection against infection to a percentage: say 70% (with a CI of +- 10%). It has protected twice as many as it has not. The Omicron variant is able to infect a higher percentage of vaccinated/boosted than Delta could _ceteris paribus_. Against serious illness the protection offered by 3 jabs is way higher (say 90+%). How about these for some simple real world figures:
Case peaked at 192k per day. From ONS data the number of infections is reasonably estimated at twice the cases reported - so say 400k (keeping figures simple). 80% are at least doubly vaccinated.
Admissions peaked at 2277 per day on 1 Jan. I'd use that as a proxy for serious illness (and ignore the with/for argument).
[All figures from Coronavirus.data.gov.uk and 7 day averages, case by specimen date.]
You do the maths.
Hope your co-worker makes it through.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Don’t agree with jabbing young children.


Doing so has saved many millions of lives over the last few decades, and saved many more from being crippled.

By the time they reach the age of 4, most children in the UK will have had 16 vaccinations.

Yet you "don't agree with it". Presumably you would rather those millions had died?



Milzy said:


> My QC manager triple jabbed and in hospital, he can’t breathe. We need a new vax.



Nobody has ever said the COVID vaccines are 100% effective. But there is absolutely no doubtr whatsoever that they have very significantly reduced the numbers of people with severe COVID.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I’m not having a 6 year old been jabbed. My wife is a paediatric community nurse & won’t have her jabbed either.


If your child has reached the age of 6 without any vaccinations, and there is no underlying medical reason for that, then you are not fit to be a parent. And your wife should not be in that job if that is her attitude.


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> If your child has reached the age of 6 without any vaccinations, and there is no underlying medical reason for that, then you are not fit to be a parent. And your wife should not be in that job if that is her attitude.


see his subsequent posts, only opposed to Covid (but hasn’t provided reasoning)


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Loads of people in the NHS don’t recommend it. It’s as if they know something.


I know of nobody in the NHS who actually knows anything about it who recommends against it.

And given your record to date, don't bother trying to find samples, they aren't likely to be any more valid than the previous lists you have unquestioningly posted up.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> see his subsequent posts, only opposed to Covid (but hasn’t provided reasoning)


Not surprising, since there isn't actually any valid reasoning.

But while I've seen his subsequent posts since, that wasn't what he was actually saying.

If he thinks the COVID vaccine is for some reason less safe than the other 16 his hid will have had, then perhaps he needs to find out rather more about the subject than he seems to know.


----------



## Ajax Bay (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> we are not antivaxers. Of course they have vaccines. Just not for Covid.





Alex321 said:


> If your child has reached the age of 6 without any vaccinations, and there is no underlying medical reason for that, then you are not fit to be a parent. And your wife should not be in that job if that is her attitude.


Alex - please read the thread and avoid attacking people (parental fitness, disqualification from job). Everyone's entitled to their choice, particularly regarding marginal (according to JCVI negligible) benefit vaccines for healthy juniors. Or do you think all vaccines should be mandatory by law? In which case, emigrate to live in a society than follows that approach.


----------



## lazybloke (11 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> So we're to understand the jabs, sadly, didn't work for him, rather than the jabs made him seriously ill. I'd previously thought you were saying *toe jabs* had caused the illness, but I evidently misunderstood. Whilst it's really bad luck, and hope he gets away with it that's not a reason not to take the jabs
> 
> Washing your hands before preparing food / eating or after having a crap doesn't guarantee you won't get a stomach upset - but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it surely?


Toe jabs!!!!! 

sorry...


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> You can use google scholar for proper peer reviewed documents, that way you avoid random people with an opinion.
> 
> Or you can use decent sources.
> 
> Vaccines aren’t 100% effective they never will be for any vaccine ever, but did your co-worker have underlying issues or were they in a at risk category? There are many factors in play.


He seemed slim & healthy but a 50 year old smoker.


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> Alex - please read the thread and avoid attacking people (parental fitness, disqualification from job). Everyone's entitled to their choice, particularly regarding marginal (according to JCVI negligible) benefit vaccines for healthy juniors. Or do you think all vaccines should be mandatory by law? In which case, emigrate to live in a society than follows that approach.


Who is that nut job? Alex read properly, the child has had every vaccine going apart from Covid. A child who eats a lot of fruit & veg. Has her own swimming coach. Cycles, goes to park run. I’d say is more privileged than millions of other children in this country. Also millions don’t take vaccines for religious reasons. So you can rant about how bad religion is if it makes one feel better.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> He seemed slim & healthy but a 50 year old smoker.



Fit and healthy is often used to describe people when a better phrase for many would be “Not ill but not healthy“.


----------



## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Not surprising, since there isn't actually any valid reasoning.
> 
> But while I've seen his subsequent posts since, that wasn't what he was actually saying.
> 
> If he thinks the COVID vaccine is for some reason less safe than the other 16 his hid will have had, then perhaps he needs to find out rather more about the subject than he seems to know.





Ming the Merciless said:


> Fit and healthy is often used to describe people when a better phrase for many would be “Not ill but not healthy“.


I get that. You never expect it to be them, but that’s the way it goes. Seems to be a trend of office staff becoming the most ill. The shop floor people are the ones who smoke & drink too much but have shrugged it off like a common cold. It doesn’t discriminate.


----------



## vickster (11 Jan 2022)

50? Been smoking a long time? And a decent number of death sticks? Probably got COPD and cardiovascular disease unfortunately. Neither helpful alongside Covid


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## Milzy (11 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> 50? Been smoking a long time? And a decent number of death sticks? Probably got COPD and cardiovascular disease unfortunately. Neither helpful alongside Covid


I agree. I think others will fall victim too before the summer burn out.


----------



## Johnno260 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> He seemed slim & healthy but a 50 year old smoker.



No offence intended but a 50yr old smoker vs a potentially nasty respiratory illness, you must see this puts him potentially at massive risk. 

I know someone fit young and healthy who caught Covid pre vaccine and she is in wheel chair due to fatigue and heart/lung damage, not a smoker and no underlying issues. 

A vaccine isn’t a cure all or magic shield, other measures help.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> Alex - please read the thread and avoid attacking people (parental fitness, disqualification from job). Everyone's entitled to their choice, particularly regarding marginal (according to JCVI negligible) benefit vaccines for healthy juniors. Or do you think all vaccines should be mandatory by law? In which case, emigrate to live in a society than follows that approach.


At that point, I thought he was talking about all vaccines, since he didn't mention the COVID one specifically in either that or his previous post.

I hadn't read further on to see that in fact he only meant the COVID vaccine - though why he thinks that is any different to the rest I don't know.


----------



## Alex321 (11 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Who is that nut job?



The "nut job(s)" would be most of the people you have referred to as experts 




Milzy said:


> Alex read properly,



I don't read the whole thread before responding, I start at the last place I read, and usually respond to posts as I reach them. And that post by you (and your previous one) appeared to just be a blanket "no vaccination" of 6 year olds.

Apologies for not reading ahead to find you had later said you didn't mean what it seemed.



Milzy said:


> the child has had every vaccine going apart from Covid. A child who eats a lot of fruit & veg. Has her own swimming coach. Cycles, goes to park run. I’d say is more privileged than millions of other children in this country. Also millions don’t take vaccines for religious reasons. So you can rant about how bad religion is if it makes one feel better.



Ok, That is good.

But just what is it about the COVID vaccine that makes it so different from all the others you have quite reasonably agreed to give.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Also millions don’t take vaccines for religious reasons.


Could you tell me, please, what religion these millions follow, which instructs them, among all the other rules and tenets, to decline vaccines?


----------



## Milzy (12 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Could you tell me, please, what religion these millions follow, which instructs them, among all the other rules and tenets, to decline vaccines?


Our Muslim community won’t take it. Could be other religions too as there’s so many. 

Please tell me this document is fake.


----------



## MontyVeda (12 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> ... My work friend can’t breathe because the 3 jabs haven’t worked. Next you’ll tell me if it wasn’t for the 3 jabs he’d be dead now. Maybe he needed a 4th?





MontyVeda said:


> ...
> 
> *How many people do you know that have had the three jabs and aren't in hospital and can breathe quite normally?? Is it more than one?*
> 
> ...


it's a very straight forward question.


----------



## MontyVeda (12 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Our Muslim community won’t take it. Could be other religions too as there’s so many.
> 
> ...


In other news, when i went to get my three jabs, plenty of my Muslim neighbours were there too.

*[edit]*
I've just read that (half a) document. I thought it was going to be a religious doctrine or something, telling Muslims that Sharia Law is anti-vax... but it's got nothing to do with Islam.

You don't half have a 'scatter gun' approach to debating. Say one thing, then throw up some 'evidence' for something completely different... it's all a bit bizarre.


----------



## Alex321 (12 Jan 2022)

Reply


Milzy said:


> Our Muslim community won’t take it. Could be other religions too as there’s so many.


"Your" Muslim community is as VERY tiny fraction of the Muslim community of the UK. I have no idea why they won't take it, but it isn't for religious reasons.

The vast majority have been taking it, as there is absolutely NO part of their religion preventing them doing so. When I went for my booster, late November, there were plenty of Muslims there getting their jabs.

The Muslim Council of Britain are happy to recommend all three vaccines
https://mcb.org.uk/resources/coronavirus/

And the Muslim countries of the world have similar vaccination rates to other countries in those parts.



Milzy said:


> Please tell me this document is fake.


Why would we tell you a completely meaningless document is "fake"?


----------



## FishFright (12 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Our Muslim community won’t take it. Could be other religions too as there’s so many.
> 
> Please tell me this document is fake.



Do you know who sent that letter ? If it's an official communication it should have senders details and document reference numbers etc .

Or was it just another jpeg on social media?


----------



## MontyVeda (12 Jan 2022)

Can i ask you one last time... How many people do you know that have had the three jabs and aren't in hospital and can breathe quite normally?? Is it more than one?


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Our Muslim community won’t take it.


I know nothing about 'your' Muslim community, but the Muslim community round here most certainly WILL 'take it'. When I went for my very first vac back in February last year, it was held in a cathedral and many Muslims were present and looking around very interested. There were vac clinic held in mosques and gurdwaras too and many people not of those religions chose to go to those out of a sense of interest too. Why would a religion offer their own houses of worship for vac clinics if they were opposed to said vaccination? 

Some people who follow the Islamic faith won't take it - for a range of reasons, nothing to do with Islam itself - just as there are some people of the various Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, Parsi, Bahai, Zoroastrian, and other faith groups, and none, who refuse to take it for a range of reasons. The leaders (where such persons exist) and top advisors of ALL major, and minor, faiths, and their various 'divisions' which are generally at odds with each other, are - as far as I know - of one voice here and that is in instructing their followers that the vaccines are perfectly permissible and indeed to be encouraged.

Of course there may well be a religion of which I am unaware and which has millions of followers who refuse vaccination, as you claim, so I would like to know which one it is. 

BTW the document you posted in the same post as the above quote has no connection with ANY religion still less with Islam, and none with this country (UK) either.


----------



## KnittyNorah (12 Jan 2022)

What relevance do its origins - whatever they may be, be they a lab in China, pangolin stew or little green men from Mars - have wrt those who promote anti-vax beliefs?


----------



## vickster (12 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> What relevance do its origins - whatever they may be, be they a lab in China, pangolin stew or little green men from Mars - have wrt those who promote anti-vax beliefs?


Don't forget the bat chow mein


----------



## C R (12 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> What relevance do its origins - whatever they may be, be they a lab in China, pangolin stew or little green men from Mars - have wrt those who promote anti-vax beliefs?


I think the poster in question is furiously gish galloping.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (12 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> I think the poster in question is furiously gish galloping.



Well I’d never heard that term before. Time for a gallop


----------



## mjr (12 Jan 2022)

Quebec to tax anti-vaxxers to reflect the increased cost of healthcare for them. https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...-quebec-as-health-system-struggles/ar-AASGP25


----------



## farfromtheland (12 Jan 2022)

I have now found the UK government advice on Myocarditis and Pericarditis after covid vaccination - I searched via a search engine after missing it on the govt website.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
This was updated on December 7th and says
"In those aged under 18 years, the reported rate for heart inflammation (myocarditis and pericarditis) is 10 per million doses (first dose or unknown dose) of the Pfizer vaccine."
This is apparently for all cases of reported adverse reaction.

The two US studies it references are this,
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2783052
from August,
and this,
https://publications.aap.org/pediat...ated-Myocarditis-in?autologincheck=redirected
from November.

The November study involves 63 adolescents hospitalised between March and June in 16 institutions following Pfizer or Moderna vaccination, so I did some arithmetic.

Official statistics for US vaccination rates give this,
"As of July 16, 2021, approximately 8.9 million *U.S*. *adolescents* aged 12-17 years had received Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine."
- from
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e1.htm




So I have divided 8.9 million by 63 (which is not necessarily a total figure, but a figure from 1 study) and I get very close to 1 hospitalised case per 141 thousand adolescents vaccinated, which is 10 per 1.4 million.

Is this acceptable for serious adverse reaction? I don't know. I think we need more and better research, preferably in the UK where hospitalisation rates are likely to be higher as we have free healthcare.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

It’s starting point is kinda irrelevant, we just need to react and treat people.

Also man isn’t as good as Mother Nature at creating things, I would argue if it was man made then there would be markers in the genome which has been mapped that would show it had been tampered with.


----------



## Rocky (12 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I have now found the UK government advice on Myocarditis and Pericarditis after covid vaccination - I searched via a search engine after missing it on the govt website.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
> This was updated on December 7th and says
> "In those aged under 18 years, the reported rate for heart inflammation (myocarditis and pericarditis) is 10 per million doses (first dose or unknown dose) of the Pfizer vaccine."
> ...


Interesting, thanks for doing the maths.

One question - how many of those adolescents died from the myocarditis? Is that something you’ve got figures for?


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I have now found the UK government advice on Myocarditis and Pericarditis after covid vaccination - I searched via a search engine after missing it on the govt website.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ination-guidance-for-healthcare-professionals
> This was updated on December 7th and says
> "In those aged under 18 years, the reported rate for heart inflammation (myocarditis and pericarditis) is 10 per million doses (first dose or unknown dose) of the Pfizer vaccine."
> ...


Ignoring the fact it’s a higher risk from the infection. 

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...fter-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/amp/


----------



## farfromtheland (12 Jan 2022)

Rocky said:


> Interesting, thanks for doing the maths.
> 
> One question - how many of those adolescents died from the myocarditis? Is that something you’ve got figures for?


No I haven't. Such heart problems are one of the effects of long term covid though, and their seriousness can have implications for future fitness, especially in sports.


Johnno260 said:


> Ignoring the fact it’s a higher risk from the infection.
> 
> https://www.newscientist.com/articl...fter-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/amp/


I wasn't ignoring anything, but my calculations were conservative whereas the UK govt website information doesn't quite add up, unless a very high proportion of adverse reactions were serious enough to be hospitalised.
The big question for me is how can we improve our health overall - treatments and risk factors are under-researched, and not much in the public domain.

Parents, and I am one, have ethical responsibilities to their children. Vaccination is a conscious decision, and deserves to have full information for it to be made.


----------



## farfromtheland (12 Jan 2022)

With respect, search engine optimisation happens, and relying on one particular search engine for fact checking is not optimal.

I also read quite a few questions from Milzy.


----------



## MontyVeda (12 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> With respect, search engine optimisation happens, and relying on one particular search engine for fact checking is not optimal.
> 
> I also read quite a few questions from Milzy.


 You seem to have a similar grasp of what SEO is and does as Milzy's grasp of vaccinology.


----------



## Alex321 (12 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> With respect, search engine optimisation happens, and relying on one particular search engine for fact checking is not optimal.


Relying on ANY search engine for fact checking is way off optimal.

You use the search engine to find the things you then use to fact check.



farfromtheland said:


> I also read quite a few questions from Milzy.



He has posted a significant number of things recently as being evidence for his views, then they have been found to be of very dubious value at best as soon as people start looking at them.

And I did say "rarely", not never.


----------



## Alex321 (12 Jan 2022)

I think it very possible it escaped from the lab, even probable. But not proven.

And also completely and utterly irrelevant to this thread. Just posted above as a diversionary tactic.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

Ah for the people using the guy questioning Javid…. Follow the money, follow the money. 

https://inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs...hour-at-private-breathlessness-clinic-1393143

Conflict of interest much? Going a little Wakefield there lol.


----------



## Milzy (12 Jan 2022)

Sorry for going off topic & thanks for keeping the debate going. There is a lot of misinformation out there but there’s nothing wrong with talking to people about it.


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'm sure it's just a coincidence that it started in a city which also contained one of the world’s leading labs on coronaviruses.


I'm also sure genetic markers in the genome would indicate if this was so.

Time will tell.


----------



## Rocky (12 Jan 2022)

Please can we keep the discussions focused on anti-vaxers, as per the title.......if anyone want to start a discussion about the origins of Covid, then start another thread.


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## C R (12 Jan 2022)

Not the furin cleavage canard again, only conspiracy sites talk about that as evidence of the virus being engineered. Furin cleavage is a natural feature of coronaviruses:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165


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## Alex321 (12 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> I'm sure it's just a coincidence that it started in a city which also contained one of the world’s leading labs on coronaviruses.


Why do you believe that?

And if you were being sarcastic, then why, given I had said it was probable?


----------



## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Not the furin cleavage canard again, only conspiracy sites talk about that as evidence of the virus being engineered. Furin cleavage is a natural feature of coronaviruses:
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165



A CSPAN from 2016 has been doing to rounds (AGAIN) with Peter Daszak, they claim if proves this whole thing was a setup, but it's conspiracy theorists clutching at straws.

I can link the tweet if people want a 30s out of context clip.


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## ClichéGuevara (12 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> I'm also sure genetic markers in the genome would indicate if this was so.
> 
> Time will tell.



According to the researchers, they already have, and more.


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## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> According to the researchers, they already have, and more.



That's a positive claim, so lets see the evidence then.

Edit: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


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## Fat Lars (12 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Not the furin cleavage canard again, only conspiracy sites talk about that as evidence of the virus being engineered. Furin cleavage is a natural feature of coronaviruses:
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1873506120304165


From the Lancet October 2021 
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00174-9/fulltext

For coronaviruses, furin cleavage sites at the interface of the S1 and S2 domain are not unusual, being found widely in betacoronaviruses in the embeco lineage (which are considered to be of rodent origin) as well as in avian-origin gammacoronaviruses and certain feline and canine alphacoronaviruses (with an unknown origin). Furin cleavage sites are also found in certain bat-origin MERS-like merbecovirises, but not—with the exception of SARS-CoV-2—in the sarbecovirus lineage. *The presence of a furin cleavage motif at the SARS-CoV-2 S1–S2 interface is therefore highly unusual, leading to the smoking gun hypothesis of manipulation that has recently gained considerable attention as a possible origin of SARS-CoV-2.*

I'm not saying that's proof mind.


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## ClichéGuevara (12 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> That's a positive claim, so lets see the evidence then.
> 
> Edit: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.



It's not an extraordinary claim, but I'm damned if I'm digging out the stuff I've read, which you will no doubt claim as a victory, so enjoy.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Jan 2022)

I thought Furin Cleavage sites was a play on a foreign page 3 websites. From above looks like proper spelling!


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## Fat Lars (12 Jan 2022)

As a general observation it is sometimes worth *listening *to people you disagree with. You can very often learn something.


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## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

ClichéGuevara said:


> It's not an extraordinary claim, but I'm damned if I'm digging out the stuff I've read, which you will no doubt claim as a victory, so enjoy.


I knew you would say that, classic conspiracy response, “do your own research”

A claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


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## ClichéGuevara (12 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> I knew you would say that, classic conspiracy response, “do your own research”
> 
> A claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



Okey doke.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Jan 2022)

View: https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ


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## C R (12 Jan 2022)

We do need facepalm and head banging on the wall reaction emojis.


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## Johnno260 (12 Jan 2022)

So you picked big pharma, ok go and check and see if you can find say a car manufacturer that lied about statistics and fixed their vehicles to dupe MOT tests... so don't buy or use a car as some have lied?

You say people have told you they have higher blood pressure now, so there are no other external pressures that could cause stress and high blood pressure like a global pandemic? and other pressures related to the current situation.

Any medication has a risk, the fact is these are actually worth the risk, you have a far greater risk of clots, cardiovascular damage etc than you risk from the vaccine.


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## Scoosh (12 Jan 2022)

*MOD NOTE:*
OK, this Thread is being Locked while the Mods Delete a whole heap of OT posts.

It might Unlock if you all promise to behave and keep to the topic – not wandering off into conspiracy/truth/anti-government/deliberate Chinese release stuff.


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## Speicher (13 Jan 2022)

This thread is now unlocked. As @Scoosh says please keep to the topic.


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## Fat Lars (13 Jan 2022)

I have been vaccinated twice (AstraZeneca) and had the booster (Pfizer), and believe that everyone should get vaccinated.

On the other hand the situation with Pfizer is that they have been prevaricating on releasing their data from a freedom of information request, so much so that the trickle of documents would at their pace of release take 70 years. A judge in the USA Texas Fort Worth on the 6th January ordered Pfizer to release the first 12000 pages by the 31st January and thereafter 55000 pages every 30 days the first due by date of 1st March 2022, (possible heavily redacted citing privilege, exemption or exclusion).
I have a problem with understanding what numbers really mean so I investigated a bit. You would think that with an efficacy of 90% that if 100 people get the virus then 10% won't get sick. Errr No.
(apologies if this has been covered earlier in the thread)
The Pfizer data is from 43444 participants, half controlled (placebo) and the other half (intervention)
Of - 21769 there were 9 cases of sick patients (intervention), Case rate 0.04%
Of - 21769 there were 85 cases of sick patients (placebo), Case rate 0.39%
The figure of 90% efficacy is calculated as the difference between the cases i.e., 85 minus 9 divided by 85 = 90%. 
The number of people needed to treat (NNT) is in this case is calculated as the absolute difference between these two numbers is 0.39% minus 0.04% = 0.35%. The NNT is calculated as 100 divided by the absolute difference. In this example that is 100 divided by 0.35% = 286. At the time of the first Pfizer press release, it was known that 286 people would need to be treated for 1 person to avoid being a Covid-19 case. 

If you take into account those people who suffered reactions and became ill then this will impact on the figures adversely. Therefore I fully respect the right of an individual to refuse to take the jab. Especially with the Omicron variant and if they are not in a vulnerable group. The chances of getting sick are very very slim.

You can see why excessive administrative secrecy feeds conspiracy theories and reduces public confidence. On the other hand It should also be remembered that at the beginning of the pandemic the bar was just 50% efficacy required by the FDA.


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## mjr (13 Jan 2022)

A local councillor has just posted an image claiming to be "Allison Coleman, aged 7" and called it a "tragedy". While they didn't mention it, searching for the name online finds similar images from anti-vaxxers claiming that the girl has died after being given the Pfizer vaccine in Australia. No reputable news service has confirmed it and even some dodgy news sites are reporting it while saying they cannot confirm it, which seems rather unusual.

I asked the councillor how they verified it before reposting and they asked more or less "verified what". So I asked how they'd verified the age and name matched the photo and was met with more evasion, saying that no-one had denied it  so now I've asked if they can find any denial that they themselves have died as a result of the Pfizer vaccine  ... but this feels like another one lost down the rabbit hole, which is a shame because I thought they were a good councillor, but this shakes my faith in their ability to evaluate evidence logically. Does anyone have any tips for bringing them back to reality?

Edit to add: Oh and at least one scammer is enthusiastically promoting Rob Malone in the comments on the post and pictures of scrunched-up leaflets with some of the most incorrect and misleading claims about vaccination that I've seen yet. It says mRNA vaccines had never been used before, so I guess everyone imagined the 2017 rabies vaccine and 2019 flu one, or maybe the Big Pharma Conspiracy has been frantically making news articles and journal papers about them that look like they were published in the past.


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## Johnno260 (13 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> I asked the councillor how they verified it before reposting and they asked more or less "verified what". So I asked how they'd verified the age and name matched the photo and was met with more evasion, saying that no-one had denied it  so now I've asked if they can find any denial that they themselves have died as a result of the Pfizer vaccine  ... but this feels like another one lost down the rabbit hole, which is a shame because I thought they were a good councillor, but this shakes my faith in their ability to evaluate evidence logically. Does anyone have any tips for bringing them back to reality?



I have found no method that works, I have my uncle and 3 friends now all believing what conmen pedal as the truth, using facts or data doesn't work as all I get back is it's false data even if it's a solid source, or I get the experts are all indoctrinated and only the anti vax doctors have the truth... either getting mad with them, or using facts just seems to push them down the anti vax rabbit hole further.

I suppose hope they end up seeing these liars and conmen for what they are at some point on their own terms is the only way.

Fact is if you dig, there are always usually dubious things in said anti vax doctors past, Robert Malone as you mentioned has flat out lied on occasion, he spent months slamming the current batch of vaccines for it to become apparent he is working with Indian pharma to produce a vaccine.

And the guy who was held up in high esteem earlier for speaking the the health sec, has a £500 an hour private clinic for breathing issues, so again follow the money.

Edit: Sorry I brought my mother back from the brink of going full anti vax, my aunt and uncle got their hooks into her and I was able to talk sense into her, it was easier as they had used some really quite bad lies, like the vaccine was full or mercury and graphene oxide.


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## Alex321 (13 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> I have been vaccinated twice (AstraZeneca) and had the booster (Pfizer), and believe that everyone should get vaccinated.
> 
> On the other hand the situation with Pfizer is that they have been prevaricating on releasing their data from a freedom of information request, so much so that the trickle of documents would at their pace of release take 70 years. A judge in the USA Texas Fort Worth on the 6th January ordered Pfizer to release the first 12000 pages by the 31st January and thereafter 55000 pages every 30 days the first due by date of 1st March 2022, (possible heavily redacted citing privilege, exemption or exclusion).
> I have a problem with understanding what numbers really mean so I investigated a bit. You would think that with an efficacy of 90% that if 100 people get the virus then 10% won't get sick. Errr No.
> ...



Which makes complete sense. Of those who would have caught the disease, only 10% do so.




Fat Lars said:


> The number of people needed to treat (NNT) is in this case is calculated as the absolute difference between these two numbers is 0.39% minus 0.04% = 0.35%. The NNT is calculated as 100 divided by the absolute difference. In this example that is 100 divided by 0.35% = 286. At the time of the first Pfizer press release, it was known that 286 people would need to be treated for 1 person to avoid being a Covid-19 case.


This makes little sense in terms of useful information.

That number is only so high because the base rate of infection during the study period was so low.

Here "treated" means "given either the placebo or vaccine", so effectively means "exist in the population".

And of course assuming the placebo infection rate is the true *current* infection rate. That has varied considerably through the different variants.

So basically it is saying that for every 286 people vaccinated, one person who *would have caught the disease during that period* will not do so.

But for every 286 people not vaccinated only about 1.1 people would get infected during that same period.



Fat Lars said:


> If you take into account those people who suffered reactions and became ill then this will impact on the figures adversely. Therefore I fully respect the right of an individual to refuse to take the jab. Especially with the Omicron variant and if they are not in a vulnerable group. The chances of getting sick are very very slim.


While I do respect the right of individuals to refuse, you do have to remember that from the POV of society the vaccines are not mainly about protecting you as an individual. Getting mass uptake is mainly about reducing the overall number of people needing medical intervention, and thus reducing the pressure on the health service.




Fat Lars said:


> *You can see why excessive administrative secrecy feeds conspiracy theories and reduces public confidence*. On the other hand It should also be remembered that at the beginning of the pandemic the bar was just 50% efficacy required by the FDA.


Absolutely you can. Secrecy is what feeds conspiracy theories, even when there hasn't really been any. As soon as you get any actual secrecy, that is meat & drink to them.


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## Arrowfoot (13 Jan 2022)

It's the other way around. Claims of secrecy, authorities not being transparent, missing data is the bread and butter of conspiracy theories. They will outright dismiss published data from highly regarded and well respected sources and continue to claim true data has not been released. 

You don't have to go far, you will see these claims in this thread.


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## farfromtheland (13 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Here "treated" means "given either the placebo or vaccine", so effectively means "exist in the population".
> 
> And of course assuming the placebo infection rate is the true *current* infection rate. That has varied considerably through the different variants.


Yes - As I read the summary, 'treated' meant the whole population of the study, half of whom were given the vaccine and half a placebo, and No - which means there was no untreated 'control group' as such.

And it is frustrating that too many social media posts mean it's so hard to find good research.


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## Johnno260 (13 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> It's the other way around. Claims of secrecy, authorities not being transparent, missing data is the bread and butter of conspiracy theories. They will outright dismiss published data from highly regarded and well respected sources and continue to claim true data has not been released.
> 
> You don't have to go far, you will see these claims in this thread.



My uncle will twist ONS data to say something entirely different, when it's explained to him and his errors corrected he will then say it's all false anyway.

Or he quote mines something from an article and again when the correct context is applied he throws it out, it's a very high level of dishonesty for sure, I then get called every name under the sun, and asked if my will and guardianship details for my kids is up to date, it's always totally toxic with him, no matter how cordial I keep things on my end.

He is also supporting things like the Alpha Men Assemble group as the time for talking is over...


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## KnittyNorah (13 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> It's the other way around. Claims of secrecy, authorities not being transparent, missing data is the bread and butter of conspiracy theories. They will outright dismiss published data from highly regarded and well respected sources and continue to claim true data has not been released.
> 
> You don't have to go far, you will see these claims in this thread.


Yes, THIS. 
'_They_' are keeping the 'TROOFAX' away from '_you_' - and if you say calmly, 'no they're not, I can show you ...' you are literally _screamed_ at, told to do 'your own research like I did' and walked away from. 

Of course their idea of 'research' is reading innumerable crank websites and watching hours of weird you-tube videos ... catch them doing any _actual _genuine research - be it hard-grind number-collection-and-crunching or thankless monotonous repetitive lab work - now that's the most unlikely thing imaginable, they have neither the skills nor the fortitude and just want to be entertained by a snake-oil salesman who will manage to convince them that 2+2 = twenty four and three quarters ...


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## Fat Lars (13 Jan 2022)

I'm sensing that the simple broad brush messages for getting the population fully vaccinated are slowly reducing now the Omicron Covid19 is taking over from Delta as the main variant. The NHS staff are still under threat of a loss of deployment or the sack if they are not vaccinated by April. IMO this will be dropped as there are as many as 10% unvaxxed and the NHS cannot afford to lose that number of staff. I don't agree that to force them to face the loss of their job or having a jab is the government's finest hour.
If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories. As individuals they can see first hand the risk profile of very sick and dying patients in ICU. OK 70% are unvaccinated but they are also elderly, obese, and have co morbidities. And the vaccinated in ICU are elderly, obese and have co morbidities. There are risks in taking the vaccine even if very low. If you are a doctor that has had covid that was asymptomatic and have a high number of antibodies you are not at risk from the virus and less likely to catch it at all and pass it on.
Lets suppose that come April I am wrong and there are multiple sackings guess what? All they have to do is move to Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland as it only applies to NHS England.
BTW as I have previously declared I am very pro vaccine and have had 3 jabs. But I'm not sure about any more.


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## mjr (13 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> [...] if you say calmly, 'no they're not, I can show you ...' you are literally _screamed_ at, told to do 'your own research like I did' and walked away from.


Yes, I literally had exactly the same phrase directed at me today. It appears to be a suggestion that if I use the same search terms as them on the same search engine then I will find the same spin and draw the same conclusions, which rather ignores that search engines show different things to different people at different times. Effectively, they learn who likes to be scammed and help to scam them, similar to how facebook's algorithm puts people into bubbles more and more.


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## mjr (13 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> [...]The NHS staff are still under threat of a loss of deployment or the sack if they are not vaccinated by April. IMO this will be dropped as there are as many as 10% unvaxxed and the NHS cannot afford to lose that number of staff.


I suspect you may be correct, but it's not a good outcome.



> I don't agree that to force them to face the loss of their job or having a jab is the government's finest hour.


As has been pointed out repeatedly, they already face this with other vaccinations required for other jobs.



> If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories.


I think you have put a "not" in there by mistake. If they choose to be fired instead of vaccinated, then they are a victim of the ridiculous scare stores about the vaccines.



> As individuals they can see first hand the risk profile of very sick and dying patients in ICU. OK 70% are unvaccinated but they are also elderly, obese, and have co morbidities. And the vaccinated in ICU are elderly, obese and have co morbidities.


I am pretty sure you should put "and/or" there and it is suspected that one of the "comorbidities" may be a genetic factor which causes few other problems and hasn't been widely screened for: so how does anyone know they haven't got that?


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jan 2022)

If this was something as deadly as say Ebola Im willing to bet all these anti vax people would be rolling up their sleeves and we would not be having these conversations.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> I have been vaccinated twice (AstraZeneca) and had the booster (Pfizer), and believe that everyone should get vaccinated.
> 
> On the other hand the situation with Pfizer is that they have been prevaricating on releasing their data from a freedom of information request, so much so that the trickle of documents would at their pace of release take 70 years. A judge in the USA Texas Fort Worth on the 6th January ordered Pfizer to release the first 12000 pages by the 31st January and thereafter 55000 pages every 30 days the first due by date of 1st March 2022, (possible heavily redacted citing privilege, exemption or exclusion).
> I have a problem with understanding what numbers really mean so I investigated a bit. You would think that with an efficacy of 90% that if 100 people get the virus then 10% won't get sick. Errr No.
> ...



Hardly, the efficacy as well as side effect data was in the information published by the UK MHA after the Pfizer vaccine was approved over a year ago. Published December 2020.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...tion_HCP_Information_BNT162_19_0_UK_Clean.pdf


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## Arrowfoot (13 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> My uncle will twist ONS data to say something entirely different, when it's explained to him and his errors corrected he will then say it's all false anyway.
> 
> Or he quote mines something from an article and again when the correct context is applied he throws it out, it's a very high level of dishonesty for sure, I then get called every name under the sun, and asked if my will and guardianship details for my kids is up to date, it's always totally toxic with him, no matter how cordial I keep things on my end.
> 
> He is also supporting things like the Alpha Men Assemble group as the time for talking is over...


The hardest is when your kin is right in it. I had my share and it sad and painful.


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## C R (13 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories


I am not sure I would trust the judgement of a doctor or nurse that refuses the vaccination without an underlying medical cause.


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## Milzy (13 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> I'm sensing that the simple broad brush messages for getting the population fully vaccinated are slowly reducing now the Omicron Covid19 is taking over from Delta as the main variant. The NHS staff are still under threat of a loss of deployment or the sack if they are not vaccinated by April. IMO this will be dropped as there are as many as 10% unvaxxed and the NHS cannot afford to lose that number of staff. I don't agree that to force them to face the loss of their job or having a jab is the government's finest hour.
> If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories. As individuals they can see first hand the risk profile of very sick and dying patients in ICU. OK 70% are unvaccinated but they are also elderly, obese, and have co morbidities. And the vaccinated in ICU are elderly, obese and have co morbidities. There are risks in taking the vaccine even if very low. If you are a doctor that has had covid that was asymptomatic and have a high number of antibodies you are not at risk from the virus and less likely to catch it at all and pass it on.
> Lets suppose that come April I am wrong and there are multiple sackings guess what? All they have to do is move to Scotland or Wales or Northern Ireland as it only applies to NHS England.
> BTW as I have previously declared I am very pro vaccine and have had 3 jabs. But I'm not sure about any more.


Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.


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## C R (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.




Respiratory doctor about how his patience is wearing thin with the unvaxxed
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...cinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

Oncologist about being asked to allow one of her patients to be removed from the ICU to make way for an unvaxxed patient needing a ventilator
ttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/13/my-bile-rises-as-im-asked-to-move-my-dying-cancer-patient-out-of-icu-to-make-room-for-an-unvaccinated-man-with-covid

Edited to add context to the links.


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## Johnno260 (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.



Not that being top of your class protects you.

https://www.sportbible.com/mma/antivaxxer-kickboxing-champion-dies-from-covid19-20211227.amp.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...ss-influencer-ukraine-sofia-b1130533.html?amp

Also as an elite athlete your cardiovascular function is important right?

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...navirus/heart-problems-after-covid19?amp=true

Oh and if this is Novak you’re talking about people can take the morale high ground as he attended events days after testing positive, thats disgusting behaviour.

Edit: Also what makes Novak exempt from rules? Rules that the general public has to adhere to? He isn’t a special case, I don’t care who he is.


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## DCBassman (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.


Unless you have underlying medical issues, there are no reasons to be unvaccinated, full stop. Elite athletes are not even slightly less susceptible than the average as far as I can see, but then no-one has checked...
There's no issue with any of the vaccines, they have had as much testing, maybe more, than any other vaccines have had before introduction, and they are proven to work. Vaccine-aversion is dumb, pure and simple. Vaccines are among the safest medicines, not the dodgiest.


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## MontyVeda (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.


What's really sad is the fact that you think you're being rational and logical.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.



You are confusing fitness with health. Being an elite athlete doesn’t confer any extra health benefits over someone who exercises regularly. If you want the health benefits of exercise you don’t need to train like an elite 30 hours a week etc. Performance != health.


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## Johnno260 (13 Jan 2022)

I have work colleagues in the New York and New Jersey area, I think these figures speak volumes. 

Again it says a lot about the vaccinated vs unvaccinated rates of hospitalisations. 

https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data


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## MrGrumpy (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.


Your going to need a JCB with the hole your digging


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## Alex321 (13 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Agreed. What bugs me is when unhealthy vaccinated people taking up the morale high ground against fitter groups of people like unvaccinated elite athletes for one example.


Is there any actually reasoning behind that?

Those people are absolutely right. It disgusts me that those elite athletes have been taken in by the silly scare stories. There is even less reason for them to not get vaccinated than there is for the rest of us. Many of them are involved in sports where social distancing is simply impossible. It is completely irresponsible for them to continue playing those sports without getting vaccinated.


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## mjr (13 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> If this was something as deadly as say Ebola Im willing to bet all these anti vax twats would be rolling up their sleeves and we would not be having these conversations.


When they get covid, most of them stop demanding to know what's in all the medications that are saving their lives.

Maybe Quebec has the right idea with a higher health tax for the unvaccinated-by-choice?


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## Alex321 (13 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> If a doctor or nurse in ICU consciously chooses to lose their job I have to assume that they of all the professions must have weighed up the risk versus benefits carefully and are not a victim of ridiculous scare stories.



For some reason you feel you "have to assume" something which is certainly the opposite of the truth. Why do you feel you have to assume this?





Fat Lars said:


> As individuals they can see first hand the risk profile of very sick and dying patients in ICU. OK 70% are unvaccinated but they are also elderly, obese, and have co morbidities. And the vaccinated in ICU are elderly, obese and have co morbidities.



Well according to this doctor in a Welsh hospital, at that hospital it is ALL patients in ICU are unvaccinated. And they are not "elderly, obese and have co-morbidities".
"All the Covid patients on ITU are unvaccinated at present, and we’ve had several deaths this week. None of them had significant comorbidities and were people you would usually expect to live another 30-plus years," he said"
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/health/two-top-doctors-explain-whats-22699578






Fat Lars said:


> There are risks in taking the vaccine even if very low.



Those risks are orders of magnitude less than the risk associated with NOT taking them.


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## classic33 (13 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> When they get covid, most of them stop demanding to know what's in all the medications that are saving their lives.
> 
> Maybe Quebec has the right idea with a higher health tax for the unvaccinated?


I'm not entirely certain of the complete make up of the current anti-epilepsy medication, that's "keeping me alive" at present.


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## FishFright (13 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Your going to need a JCB with the hole your digging



As Bamford has been allowing his premises to be used as vaccination centres free of charge he may have to put up with an imported digger.


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## Johnno260 (13 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> When they get covid, most of them stop demanding to know what's in all the medications that are saving their lives.
> 
> Maybe Quebec has the right idea with a higher health tax for the unvaccinated?



Also bear in mind they also claim they don’t want to line big pharmas pockets with the vaccine, now I know for certain some of the drugs used in critical care have huge cost, and looking at some of the numbers what vaccination status is mostly clogging ICU beds.


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## KnittyNorah (14 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Also bear in mind they also claim they don’t want to line big pharmas pockets with the vaccine, now I know for certain some of the drugs used in critical care have huge cost, and looking at some of the numbers what vaccination status is mostly clogging ICU beds.


Yes, indeed; they should be clamouring for the vaccine at (a few £ per shot) x 3 instead of risking the expense of HDU or ICU at (several £K daily + drugs, in the pocket of both big pharma & medical technology) x duration of stay. Even if their magic tinfoil hats protect them from that, you don't need a particularly severe infection to get long covid ... and the present level of knowledge about Omicron seems to be that it is no ticket of freedom from long covid. 

However, logic cannot be described as the strongpoint of the anti-vaxx crowd; it will be interesting to see what effect Quebec's increased tax charge has, and its fallout. 

The problem is that it's a slippery slope and could well be seen - and rightly condemned - as the first step on the road to laying the blame directly on people for literally _thousands_ of conditions and diseases which are, or might be, attributable in some way to an individual lifestyle choice. The idea of making life very inconvenient if unvaccinated, is, I think, a much better one.


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## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2022)

Here is an observation that I noticed in the past that's appearing in spadeful now. Anti Vaxxers claiming to have taken the vaccination and even describing what type and what doses but casting doubts repeatedly on data and research. Even boldly claiming they are for vaccination.

Maybe hoping for an audience. One recently joined this thread.

Btw our good doctor Steve James is now shape shifting after BBC fact checked on his claims and called it out. And his Medical colleagues questioned his ethics. The man is now pro-vaccine but claims questionable science.
https://www.bbc.com/news/59929638
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


----------



## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Is there any actually reasoning behind that?
> 
> Those people are absolutely right. It disgusts me that those elite athletes have been taken in by the silly scare stories. There is even less reason for them to not get vaccinated than there is for the rest of us. Many of them are involved in sports where social distancing is simply impossible. It is completely irresponsible for them to continue playing those sports without getting vaccinated.


They won’t end up in hospital though & there’s at least two other drugs available to clear up Covid in its early stages. Those drugs are very cheap to make.


----------



## C R (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> They won’t end up in hospital though & there’s at least two other drugs available to clear up Covid in its early stages. Those drugs are very cheap to make.


Like ivermectin?


----------



## newfhouse (14 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Like ivermectin?


Bleach.


----------



## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

Furthermore an elite athlete can brush off Covid like a child so the they may as well rely on their antibodies as the vaccine is more likely to be a higher risk than the disease.


----------



## toffee (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Furthermore an elite athlete can brush off Covid like a child so the they may as well rely on their antibodies as the vaccine is more likely to be a higher risk than the disease.


Where did you read that?


----------



## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

toffee said:


> Where did you read that?


it’s made up bollocks that’s why !!

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/bay...ne-after-suffering-coronavirus-related-injury

Footballers might polarise peoples opinion but the point is proven in the link. It’s matters not a jot whom you are.


----------



## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> They won’t end up in hospital though & there’s at least two other drugs available to clear up Covid in its early stages. Those drugs are very cheap to make.


Some WILL end up in hospital.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...t-madi-wilson-admitted-to-hospital-with-covid
https://www.skysports.com/football/...keeper-being-treated-in-hospital-for-covid-19


----------



## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Furthermore an elite athlete can brush off Covid like a child so the they may as well rely on their antibodies as the vaccine is more likely to be a higher risk than the disease.


There are NO people without pre-existing conditions making the vaccines inadvisable whose risk from taking the vaccine is anywhere near as high as the risk from not taking it.

The risk of death from taking the vaccines is one in tens of millions. Even the risk of serious negative side effects is WAY less than the risk of death from the disease, and hundreds of times less likely than having long term effects from the disease.


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Furthermore an elite athlete can brush off Covid like a child so the they may as well rely on their antibodies as the vaccine is more likely to be a higher risk than the disease.


Ignoring cases like the MMA and kickboxing world champ who died to it.

Also ignoring the fact it can cause long term cardiovascular damage, with that comprised career is over.


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> it’s made up bollocks that’s why !!
> 
> https://www.espn.co.uk/football/bay...ne-after-suffering-coronavirus-related-injury
> 
> Footballers might polarise peoples opinion but the point is proven in the link. It’s matters not a jot whom you are.



Like the fact with footballers suffering from cardiac events, the reports anti vaxers use don’t include the status of the player with regard to prior infection, and that infection has a much higher risk of adverse cardiac issues.


----------



## Fat Lars (14 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Like ivermectin?



There's an interesting story from the US about Ivermectin. The Health insurance companies have sent communications to the doctors on their panels to cease from prescribing Ivermectin even off label, which means unathourised use but remains perfectly legal if safe to use. Now this breaches the terms and conditions that the Health Insurance have with the doctors. Their licence and agreement with the doctors states that they will not interfere with the doctor patient relationship including the prescribing of drugs. They have unilaterally altered the terms and condtions to say "except for the prescription of ivermectin". If they find out that the doctor has subsequently prescribed Ivermectin then they risk sanctions including exclusion.

Now the new kid on the block is Pfizer's Paxlovid, which is two drugs, nirmatrelvir and ritonavir, The dose is 3 pills for 5 days. The eye watering costs is 700 dollars a dose. Paxlovid is a protease inhibitor and is patented by Pfizer which will last 20 years. Its been rushed through approval by the FDA. Its use is for those suffering symptoms but before hospitilisation within 5 days.

Ivermectin is cheap. The patent from Pfizer has run out. There is so much misinformation about this drug. E.g. anti parasite for animals but it has been used millions of times in humans for treatment of scabies.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/
Conclusion​Developing an effective therapeutic against COVID-19 is currently the utmost interest to the scientific communities. The present study depicts comparative binding efficacy of a promising FDA-approved drug, ivermectin, against major pathogenic proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and their human counterparts involved in host–pathogen interaction. *Herein, our in silico data have indicated that ivermectin efficiently utilizes viral spike protein, main protease, replicase and human TMPRSS2 receptors as the most possible targets for executing its antiviral efficiency.* Therefore, ivermectin exploits protein targets from both virus and human, which could be the reason behind its excellent _in vitro_ efficacy against SARS-CoV-2 as reported by Caly _et al._ [13]. Ivermectin B1b isomers have been found to be the more efficacious molecule out of the two homologs. Intriguingly, comparison of the _in silico_ efficiency of ivermectin with currently used anticorona drugs, such as hydroxychloroquine and remdesivir, indicated toward the potential of ivermectin to target the major pathogenic proteins of SARS-CoV-2. Ivermectin is a popular antiparasitic drug and is also safe in children, younger adults, pregnant and lactating ladies. Development of pulmonary delivery of ivermectin through synthesis of better ivermectin formulation has been reported recently and this is expected to shorten the treatment duration and lead to better outcomes [33]. It is noteworthy to mention that many anti-SARS-CoV-2s are now being tested for their efficacy in shaping the immune response of humans, through targeting the cell surface as well as intracellular toll-like receptors [34,35]. In this context, ivermectin could be an effective option as well. Considering all these facts, the present study explores the therapeutic targets of ivermectin against SARS-CoV-2 and enlightens the possibility of using this drug in COVID-19 clinical trials shortly.

Now that is what I call a conspiracy.


----------



## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

Please check this meme


----------



## vickster (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Please check this meme


what about it to check...why don't you offer your opinion rather than just posting something?
Read da roolz about debate especially the bit about posting stuff 
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/rules-for-appropriate-debate.213537/
Is it more cr@p off Twitter?


----------



## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Please check this meme


Check it for what?

Relevance?

OK, checked, it doesn't really have any


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Please check this meme


It's rather stupid, as people change jobs and many stay within their area of knowledge or expertise.

For example we employed a former employee of an approval body to manage our certification and approval, reason being he knew what we needed to do, to pass audits the first time and with the correct processes, it was cheaper to employ an expert than to keep paying for re-audits which can cost 10's of thousands, and we have to have certification from 5-6 approval bodies to trade.


----------



## DCBassman (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Please check this meme


And this comes from...?


----------



## icowden (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Please check this meme


Will do.

So lets start with Scott Gottlieb. I presume the meme is trying to make out a conspiracy. Scott is an *independent* member of the Pfizer board. This means that 


> Independent outside directors are *members of a firm's board of directors who are unaffiliated with the company itself*. In contrast to insiders, outside directors are thought to be more objective and bring a different perspective to the management of a firm.


So although he can advise Pfizer he stands to gain no benefit and has no control over the firm. He has a good reputation for health initiatives and is someone who would be of interest to Pfizer due to his reputation. 

Stephen Hahn is less transparent and a good example of how the revolving doors of politics and public life work. You work for the government, a company will employ you because they want that insight into Government. However as Moderna had been around for about 10 years before he joined them and specialised in vaccines it is hardly surprising that they created a vaccine. It's what they do. It is likely however that he was of help in trying to work with the US Government. 

As for James C Smith, this is the exciting story "man leaves job to take another job". This happens regularly. People see a better job, or more interesting job, or better paid job, they take the job. 

Re James Fauci, that one is *really grasping at straws. It hinges on the idea that as Fauci is a director of NIAID, he was somehow instrumental in agreeing funding to EcoHealth who funded a project in Wuhan to study newly discovered Coronaviruses in bats. Even if you accept that bit, the study significantly pre-dated the Covid19 pandemic and looked at strains unrelated to Covid19 *precisely to gain more information about the risks of cros-species transmission*. In particular the funding was conditional on no Change of Function research being carried out (i.e. no genetic manipulation).

The meme of course seeks to suggest that these men know each other and are working together in some sort of vast conspiracy.

It is, like most memes of this type, utter nonsense.


----------



## icowden (14 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> It's rather stupid, as people change jobs and many stay within their area of knowledge or expertise.
> 
> For example we employed a former employee of an approval body to manage our certification and approval, reason being he knew what we needed to do, to pass audits the first time and with the correct processes, it was cheaper to employ an expert than to keep paying for audits which can cost 10's of thousands, and we have to have certification from 5-6 approval bodies to trade.


Just wait until @Milzy discovers what happens to UK policiticans when they leave office (unless they are called Hancock)...


----------



## markemark (14 Jan 2022)

Relaxing to watch if nothing else


View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1481706063271505932


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## mjr (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> The Health insurance companies [...] have unilaterally altered the terms and condtions to say "except for the prescription of ivermectin". If they find out that the doctor has subsequently prescribed Ivermectin then they risk sanctions including exclusion.


There are no hits on Startpage, Duckduckgo, Bing or Google for this claim.

Edited to add: on one of the "News" tabs, this article published yesterday says that the latest data says US health insurers are still paying out for ivermectin and this is highly unusual because "Insurers usually don't cover ineffective treatments, or at least make patients pay for most of the cost," https://medicalxpress.com/news/2022-01-ivermectin-prescriptions-covid-coverage-doesnt.html

Also, even the makers of branded ivermectin, Merck, say there's "No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19". https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/



> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7996102/
> Conclusion​[...] *Herein, our in silico data have indicated that ivermectin efficiently utilizes viral spike protein, main protease, replicase and human TMPRSS2 receptors as the most possible targets for executing its antiviral efficiency.* [...]


Just in case anyone else's pseudo-latin isn't up to speed, "in silico" means these are computer simulation results, not petri-dish stuff and not real patients.



> Now that is what I call a conspiracy.


What, making shoot up about health insurance, or extrapolating computer simulations to humans?


----------



## Fat Lars (14 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> There are no hits on Startpage, Duckduckgo, Bing or Google for this claim.
> 
> Also, even the makers of branded ivermectin, Merck, say there's "No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19". https://www.merck.com/news/merck-statement-on-ivermectin-use-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/
> 
> ...


1) This video of a doctor shows an actual letter on the screen. To save you some time the relevant bit starts after 1 minute

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75VN1aFXwZw&t=958s

Reading the comments below the video of those people who have used Ivermectin might be worth a look. Or are they not real patients? 


2) Actually the point that I was making is that it is safe to prescribe and in theory beneficial to use as a treatment. The conclusion certainly confirms this and recommends a randomised controlled clinical trial.
One clinical trial I've found is this one. The efficacy of the drug towards Covid 19 has been completed and the results are pending publication

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05076253

3) Isn't Life Great?


----------



## mjr (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> 1) This video of a doctor shows an actual letter on the screen.


Well, that's me convinced: there's no way that anyone could fake "an actual letter" well enough to withstand being held up to a camera(!)



> Reading the comments below the video of those people who have used Ivermectin might be worth a look. Or are they not real patients?


Well, that's me convinced: every commenter on youtube is a completely trustworthy medical expert and there are no bots on there(!)



> 2) Actually the point that I was making is that it is safe to prescribe and in theory beneficial to use as a treatment.


Long way from theory to practice and it's strange that despite all the people taking it, including those youtube commenters, that we're still waiting for any solid evidence for it after almost two years.



> One clinical trial I've found is this one. The efficacy of the drug towards Covid 19 has been completed and the results are pending publication
> 
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05076253


I look forward to its publication, although I am slightly concerned by its reference to "November 20211" which makes me wonder about the care and attention to detail.


----------



## vickster (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> 2) Actually the point that I was making is that it is safe to prescribe and in theory beneficial to use as a treatment. The conclusion certainly confirms this and recommends a randomised controlled clinical trial.
> One clinical trial I've found is this one. The efficacy of the drug towards Covid 19 has been completed and the results are pending publication
> 
> https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05076253


Wow a whole 72 participants in the trial in one whole hospital


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## Fat Lars (14 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> Well, that's me convinced: there's no way that anyone could fake "an actual letter" well enough to withstand being held up to a camera(!)
> 
> 
> Well, that's me convinced: every commenter on youtube is a completely trustworthy medical expert and there are no bots on there(!)
> ...


Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye


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## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Please check this meme


These memes are click baits and wet dreams to conspiracy theorist. Its done very well as they want the gullible to think they worked the connections by themselves. And therefore it has to be true. 

That meme is exactly how the economy of the World and big corporations run. They look for people who have proven track record in a related field, proven leadership or expertise or have great influence in the market place or in Government or in Parliament. You do not want a retired star performer from Cirque du Soleil, a pastor or a retired Policeman on the Board. By the way for listed companies the regulators can reject the appointment.


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## DCBassman (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye


Serious debate also includes understanding when your point of view has been radically dismembered, and why. Entrenched position is not debate.


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## mjr (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye


You shouldn't knock it before you try it! When were you going to get involved in a serious debate?

New scam spotted: some anti-vaxxer delivered a ream of spam to Hammersmith Police Station and has now an image has started spreading that there is an investigation by "Hammersmith CID" into "Misconduct in a Public Office" over the vaccines, with a case number. There isn't. See https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/1191d0b5

On the same site, there is also a factcheck of one way that people have been taking the micturate out of anti-vaxxers: https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/d8c6e47e


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## Arrowfoot (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye


First you claimed that you took the vaccine and are pro vaccine. Then you put out a supposedly profound statement about listening to those one disagrees with. 

Followed by links to research that won't pass basic muster and all slanted against the vaccine. Then comments about secrecy, research not completed, data not clear, etc. 

And you are looking for serious debate?


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## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

mjr said:


> You shouldn't knock it before you try it! When were you going to get involved in a serious debate?
> 
> New scam spotted: some anti-vaxxer delivered a ream of spam to Hammersmith Police Station and has now an image has started spreading that there is an investigation by "Hammersmith CID" into "Misconduct in a Public Office" over the vaccines, with a case number. There isn't. See https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/1191d0b5
> 
> On the same site, there is also a factcheck of one way that people have been taking the micturate out of anti-vaxxers: https://www.logically.ai/factchecks/library/d8c6e47e



Is that the same claim where they delivered the "papers" and the case got closed? some of the anti vaxers seriously lost their minds over that.

Bear in mind these are now the people who think they have common law constables.


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## C R (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye


You got serious debate with people actually taking the time to check what you posted. If you think the points raised are not valid you can counter them, that's what debate is.


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## MontyVeda (14 Jan 2022)

I know I've not been the best anti-vaxxer... but with Fat Lars gone... does that mean there's only two of us left?


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

MontyVeda said:


> I know I've not been the best anti-vaxxer... but with Fat Lars gone... does that mean there's only two of us left?


Hope so


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## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye



So people refute your claims with sound evidence, and your response is "this isn't a serious debate, bye" proves you just wanted people to confirm a bias.


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## Alex321 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> View: https://www.facebook.com/100045139651558/posts/472114224303229/?d=n



Utterly meaningless.

Anecdotal evidence of people who have had things happen to them fairly soon after vaccination means nothing at all. I'm sure you could find just as many regarding people who have been killed in road accidents within 30 days of vaccination. That would mean just as much.

What does mean something is where studies have been carried out showing whether the incidence of such things is any greater among those vaccinated than among a similar cohort normally (or who have not been vaccinated in current times).


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## vickster (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> View: https://www.facebook.com/100045139651558/posts/472114224303229/?d=n



Facebook is hardly a validated source


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## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> View: https://www.facebook.com/100045139651558/posts/472114224303229/?d=n




Copying and pasting memes and nonsense from Twitter just proves you aren't interested in anything except propagating total nonsense, and lies.

Like I said ignoring the fact cardiovascular damage from the virus is a thing.

Nothing posted thus far from you has lead to anything credible, you do know by spreading this nonsense means you have some responsibility towards preventable deaths right?

Also nice to see the Australians blocked Novax again, they have some sense I see.

Derailing the thread again? I assume at this point you want it locked.


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## C R (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> View: https://www.facebook.com/100045139651558/posts/472114224303229/?d=n



Correlation does not imply causation.


----------



## PK99 (14 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> I am not sure I would trust the judgement of a doctor or nurse that refuses the vaccination without an underlying medical cause.



I am sure I would not.


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## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

C R said:


> Correlation does not imply causation.


Such a weak deflection. Some people are having health issues from the vaccine. You can’t deny it. Apparently though it’s so rare it’s worth it.


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## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Such a weak deflection. Some people are having health issues from the vaccine. You can’t deny it. Apparently though it’s so rare it’s worth it.



No it was a weak claim on your part, all medicines and all drugs have potential side effects and possible reactions.

If the reactions from the vaccines were as wide spread as some people claim then we would have major issues, the fact is they're isolated cases, it's also a fact the vaccines work.







You can be as incredulous as you like but anti vaxers are a dying breed rather literally as well.

Edit: just so you are aware also, all the vaccine adverse reactions, clots myocarditis etc, all of these carry a much higher risk from the actual virus.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...ases/coronavirus/heart-problems-after-covid19

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea.../coronavirus/what-does-covid-do-to-your-blood

Those are articles from an actual medical source, not from social media.


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## mjr (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Such a weak deflection. Some people are having health issues from the vaccine. You can’t deny it. Apparently though it’s so rare it’s worth it.


If you want to talk about weak deflections, look in the mirror! No-one is trying to deny that there are some adverse reactions (implying otherwise is a weak deflection), but that facebook question is going to get loads of reports while being impossible to figure out if it's more or less than normal. It's completely useless horse shoot, yet you repost it here saying we should "smell the coffee". I've a particularly nice batch of Java Caffe on the go right now and it helps me realise that you've reposted misinformation. Maybe you need another snort of coffee before your next post?


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## markemark (14 Jan 2022)

There an awful lot of effort here to convince 1 or 2 people to take the vaccine who I guarantee never will.


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## mjr (14 Jan 2022)

markemark said:


> There an awful lot of effort here to convince 1 or 2 people to take the vaccine who I guarantee never will.


There are fringe benefits: once a scam is posted here, the rebuttals show up quite high on search engines.


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## farfromtheland (14 Jan 2022)

I am very happy to discount all social media posts and even opinions of individual doctors for the sake of using solid research to evaluate vaccine effectiveness.

I think it is useful to scrutinise statistics thoroughly though, so I looked at these, cited earlier, of New York State's vaccinated and unvaccinated covid hospital admissions.
https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data

The graphs presented are concerning, in more than one respect, and the methodology used and described here,
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037a7.htm?s_cid=mm7037a7_w
is interesting too.

The first thing that struck me about the graph of 'New daily cases over time by vaccination status' was the large upswing in cases for December, because it reminded me that hospitalisations for many vulnerable people are likely to rise in winter.

So I got thinking about the methodology, and checked if the figures were raw data or whether they had been balanced by consideration of pre-existing health conditions, particularly to take into account what percentage of the unvaccinated were people with exemption for health reasons, such as cancer treatment or other immunity weaknesses for example. This had not been done.

I don't know how much difference this would make, but it is good practice in data analysis.


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I am very happy to discount all social media posts and even opinions of individual doctors for the sake of using solid research to evaluate vaccine effectiveness.
> 
> I think it is useful to scrutinise statistics thoroughly though, so I looked at these, cited earlier, of New York State's vaccinated and unvaccinated covid hospital admissions.
> https://coronavirus.health.ny.gov/covid-19-breakthrough-data
> ...



You could also argue that many of the vaccinated could be elderly or people with underlaying health issues, it goes both ways.


----------



## MrGrumpy (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Such a weak deflection. Some people are having health issues from the vaccine. You can’t deny it. Apparently though it’s so rare it’s worth it.


have you looked at the side effects written in the leaflets handed out with all medication dispensed ?


----------



## MontyVeda (14 Jan 2022)

vickster said:


> Facebook is hardly a validated source


It's valid for us anti-vaxxers who need all the help evidence we can get 


Milzy said:


> Such a weak deflection. Some people are having health issues from the vaccine. You can’t deny it. Apparently though it’s so rare it’s worth it.


Deaths from Covid19 are rare too... I'm thinking about doing a Boris and going to an ICU to shake everyone's hand... after all... I've survived three vaccination jabs... I'm sure I'll survive a few handshakes


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> have you looked at the side effects written in the leaflets handed out with all medication dispensed ?



Even over the counter items, check Ibuprofen as an example.


----------



## farfromtheland (14 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> You could also argue that many of the vaccinated could be elderly or people with underlaying health issues, it goes both ways.


I realise that - it was why I wondered about the number of people unvaccinated for health reasons. Such health reasons as cancer treatment or immune deficiency would skew the findings more than something that would occur in both vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, particularly as the total percentage of people in hospital with covid is a very low fraction of the total healthy population.


----------



## FishFright (14 Jan 2022)

Fat Lars said:


> Well that shows that any serious debate here is a waste of time. Bye



If you'd waited until the research was published it may have helped .


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## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

farfromtheland said:


> I realise that - it was why I wondered about the number of people unvaccinated for health reasons. Such health reasons as cancer treatment or immune deficiency would skew the findings more than something that would occur in both vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, particularly as the total percentage of people in hospital with covid is a very low fraction of the total healthy population.



That’s why people use excess mortality rates.


----------



## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

byegad said:


> Some of them may be in line for the Darwin Award by the end of this.


Like the ones who died from complications from the vaccines? If people make the wrong choice it’s unlucky,I wouldn’t go as far as a Darwin Award that’s way too harsh.


----------



## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Like the ones who died from complications from the vaccines? If people make the wrong choice it’s unlucky,I wouldn’t go as far as a Darwin Award that’s way too harsh.



Ignoring the 5 million dead from the virus.

You forget the viral body count far outweighs anything the vaccine has done.


----------



## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

Johnno260 said:


> Ignoring the 5 million dead from a virus.


I am hoping the truth is much less.


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## Johnno260 (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> I am hoping the truth is much less.



Yet the truth is it’s 5 million. If anything it’s been under reported.


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## vickster (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Furthermore an elite athlete can brush off Covid like a child so the they may as well rely on their antibodies as the vaccine is more likely to be a higher risk than the disease.


Yes of course they can 
Afcon 2021: Gabon's Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang out of game against Ghana with 'heart lesions'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60003289


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## Rusty Nails (14 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> Like the ones who died from complications from the vaccines? If people make the wrong choice it’s unlucky,I wouldn’t go as far as a Darwin Award that’s way too harsh.


How many have died of complications from the vaccine? Reputable sources please.

And not just died within 28 days of having the vaccination. If you vaccinate 30 million people a lot of them would have died anyway within 28 days.


----------



## Milzy (14 Jan 2022)

Rusty Nails said:


> How many have died of complications from the vaccine? Reputable sources please.
> 
> And not just died within 28 days of having the vaccination. If you vaccinate 30 million people a lot of them would have died anyway within 28 days.


You may have a point there but the true hardcore antis won’t listen because they believe all kinds of other things linked to it like been about control. Every time you challenge their laughable memes they say do your own research. We are discussing anti vaxers and there’s blurred lines in information on both sides. A lot of people still are not sure what to think. They antis are not dying out there’s many of them out there & they’re all here to stay.


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## TheDoctor (14 Jan 2022)

Enough. Locked pending a possible cleanup.


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