# Scotrail.. Kicked of the train for no reason.



## rnscotch (5 Apr 2009)

Yesterday after work i decided it's been a long week and my legs where a bit tender so i decided to get the train halfway and cycle the rest of the journey just over 8 mile.

This will probably be a bit long so my apologies.. 

So i get on my train which was one of the older stock trains where the compartment for bikes can carry 6 bikes the way you rack the bike is by standing the bike upright you then hook the wheel thats off the ground onto a hook. Now usually there is never any other bikes on the train so when it is empty like last night you can get away with parking the bike across 3 slots so it is parallel to the carriage and not in anyones way i prefer parking like this as in the past i have broken spokes parking it the correct way.

For the last 2 years when i have used the train i have parked my bike this way and nothing has been said by the Conductors on the odd occasion when other cyclists have came on i have got up and moved my bike to make more space for them it was not an issue for me to do so.

Ok so now i have explained the scenario i will get to the meat of the story , i have parked my bike as usual and i was waiting on the train to set off when i heard this voice is this your bike i turned round and there was the conductor standing i replied yes.

She says you going to have to move your bike and hang it up the correct way, so i politely ask why as the train is empty and the bike is in no ones way. I then say i have never been asked to do this before it's never been a problem for me to park my bike in this manner to which she retorts what you have been allowed to ride on the train with your bike there i don't think so, I replied yes again she retorted well not on my train.

So i decided ok we have a jobs worth here wanting to throw her weight about so i picked my bike up and hung it up properly obviously i was not happy with her tone and her demeanor so i asked for her name and she barked back "I don't need to take your shoot get off my train" i was flabbergasted.

So after a few more minutes with her refusing to give me her name, refusing to contact a manager and her threatening to get the police i got my stuff off the train and stopped someone in a hi vis vest and asked where could i find the duty manager and he kindly directed me to the office.

I explained the situation to the duty manager and he explained i need to put my complaint in writing, he then asked me to follow him and we went back over to the train where she lied giving the reason for her asking me to leave the train because i was being aggressive and arrogant and refused to let me back on the train - I stayed calm and polite through our whole conversation.

The duty manager came back over and said there was not much he could do as she was in charge of the train and she has the right to remove me if she feels intimidated. I just laughed in his face and walked away as there was no point.

So i had to wait on the next train, i want to complain but i don't know if it is worth it i believe it would be a waste of a stamp.


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## yenrod (5 Apr 2009)

What a class bitch.

A total 'no need'.

Their's got to be someway to find justice in this matter !


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## spandex (5 Apr 2009)

It can not heart you any more then you all ready have been. So I would complain you may get a free ticket to ride on the next train she is on


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## thomas (5 Apr 2009)

rnscotch said:


> So i had to wait on the next train, i want to complain but i don't know if it is worth it i believe it would be a waste of a stamp.



I've complained, do it over the net...you should get some railway vouchers.

I had a friend who was refused his bike on the train, so he refused to get off. This was in rush hour - he just said that he was just sold the ticket with the assumption that his bike could go on.

After about 15 minutes of arguing the police arrived...he then got of the train. Still, probably quite a few unhappy commuters that day .

Knowing him he was probably being a bit silly.


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## gavintc (5 Apr 2009)

Rule 1 - Play by the rules when you encounter jobsworths. It makes the high moral ground easier to occupy. 

Why did you not just hang it up?


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## downfader (5 Apr 2009)

I have complained about something I saw on a train and got the result I wanted so I think its worth it.

You need to outline the events of the day, the reasons why you parked as you did (plus if you have any photo evidence of damage their stands have made so much the better), explain how you were polite.

Sounds to me as if she took exception to you, perhaps having a bad day and decided to take it out on a customer.


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## skrx (5 Apr 2009)

To contrast this, the most recent time I had a conversation with a guard ("train manager"?)

Him: "Can you put your bike in the bike space, please?"
Me: "I'm only going to [three stops, about 12 minutes in London]". It was about midnight, so very quiet.
Him: "Oh, no need to bother then"

Definitely complain. Presumably you know what train it was, so they'll know who the employee was. I'm surprised she wasn't wearing a badge you could read though.


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## bonj2 (5 Apr 2009)

so you weren't chucked off a train for NO reason, you were chucked off a train for a reason that you don't deem justifiable...
You seem to feel you have the right to contravene rules that it doesn't suit you to obey simply because YOU can't see any reason why it makes a difference.

I think there's no problem with putting your bike like that, and she was probably being a bit petty and having a bad day and picked on you 'cos she was feeling a little grumpy - but at the end of the day she was theoretically right, so you're in the wrong to think you can just challenge her. Some people get a buzz out of having power of people and telling them what to do, and if they're feeling a little disaffected then they have a go at telling someone what to do just to see if they can make them do it - you were the victim, but you should have seen that that's what she was doing and realized it was only going to wind her up more to refuse.

I hope the train stopped for you to get off though, she didn't just chuck you off while it was going did she?


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## bonj2 (5 Apr 2009)

You might as well complain, just try and angle for a bit of a discount on future tickets


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## beanzontoast (5 Apr 2009)

Bad publicity brings its own reward - maybe you should write to your local paper / CTC magazine etc about your experience. Hopefully a lot of people will read about what happened.


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## downfader (5 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> so you weren't chucked off a train for NO reason, you were chucked off a train for a reason that you don't deem justifiable...
> You seem to feel you have the right to contravene rules that it doesn't suit you to obey simply because YOU can't see any reason why it makes a difference.
> 
> I think there's no problem with putting your bike like that, and she was probably being a bit petty and having a bad day and picked on you 'cos she was feeling a little grumpy - but at the end of the day she was theoretically right, so you're in the wrong to think you can just challenge her. Some people get a buzz out of having power of people and telling them what to do, and if they're feeling a little disaffected then they have a go at telling someone what to do just to see if they can make them do it - you were the victim, but you should have seen that that's what she was doing and realized it was only going to wind her up more to refuse.
> ...



Bonj, what the hell are you on about..? 

His reason was perfectly justifiable by the sounds of it. Just because someone like her comes across as high-and-mighty doesnt mean you have to take it. As long as your polite and to the point. 

Thats it, definately complain - and tell them Bonj told you to.


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## ufkacbln (5 Apr 2009)

I went down to Bath a little while go withthe Brompton. At one of the stations several bikes got on and one guy was not going to bother, but was invited on by another cyclist - when asked about the Guard and number of bikes he was told "We play "Bike roulette" and if the Guard comes along we simply are very polite to each other and let someone else off first and then help them. They soon realise it is going to cost them time and give up!"

Not sure about the "ethics" and staff / cyclist relationships - but it seems to work!


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## kyuss (5 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> You seem to feel you have the right to contravene rules that it doesn't suit you to obey simply because YOU can't see any reason why it makes a difference.



Haha. You're having a laugh. That's a bit rich coming from you of all people.


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## PashleyPrincess (5 Apr 2009)

This happened to me three years ago when I started commuting. The train manager did exactly the same thing claiming that it was a health a safety matter as if the driver needed to leave his cabin my bike might be in the way. (To be honest I think a greater health and safety issue would be the driver leaving his cabin at all when the rest of us are on the train expecting that he's driving it - but there you are.) Anyway he insisted that i must hang the bike up and I told him that I couldn't as it weighed too much and I am too small. So I asked him to hang it up for me. Which he declined to do. I told him I would report him and he let me stay on the train. Jobsworths - what is that they get off on?

Report her. They have to take your complaint seriously and if you don't she's bound to think she can continue going around swearing at customers.


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## gavintc (5 Apr 2009)

I am with bonj on this. I know it sound ridiculous, but a risk assessment will have been completed which will state that bikes should be secured when in transit. Securing points are provided and she as the train manager (and therefore responsible for train safety) is completely in her power to ask you to hang up your bike. Because you cannot see a good reason is not a good reason.


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## PashleyPrincess (5 Apr 2009)

gavintc said:


> I am with bonj on this. I know it sound ridiculous, but a risk assessment will have been completed which will state that bikes should be secured when in transit. Securing points are provided and she as the train manager (and therefore responsible for train safety) is completely in her power to ask you to hang up your bike. Because you cannot see a good reason is not a good reason.



Doesn't give her the right to swear at him though. I think what's at stake here is not what she asked him to do but rather the manner in which she went about it.


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## snorri (5 Apr 2009)

rnscotch said:


> So i decided ok we have a jobs worth here wanting to throw her weight


When I look at your avatar I wonder a little.


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## yello (5 Apr 2009)

User3143 said:


> How's your appeal for your parking ticket coming along Bonj?



EXACTLY what I though when I read his post!


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## Mr Pig (5 Apr 2009)

These people are used to dealing with d***heads. You think about some of the yobs, drunks and general morons these people have to cope with. I wouldn't want to do it. So when you criticize them at all, even slightly, they go into 'dealing with trouble' mode. Then you're screwed.

What you have to do is be their pal. Be nice to them, joke with them, sympathies with them and you can get them to be more than reasonable. They'll help you.

A few years ago about eight of us were getting the train up to Edinburgh from Croy station. We all got on the train and fitted our bikes in as best we could. The conductor came along and told us that the train only had spaces for two bikes (I think it was) and we'd need to get off. We didn't argue, just started taking our bikes off the train. As we did so we politely explained that we were going on a ride and asked him for his advice on what we should do (This is good as it recognizes their authority and moves them into 'being helpful' mode). Before we'd all finished getting our bikes off the train he'd changed his mind and told us we could all get back on! :0)

People respond better to kindness than criticism. That's all there is to it.


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## lazyfatgit (5 Apr 2009)

Let it slide.

You commute by train, this has been a one-off. Maybe she was just having a bad day. Doesn't excuse her behaviour, but technically she was correct to ask you to hang it up.

for the sake of a couple of vouchers you'll certainly alienate her and will find yourself having to hang the bike everytime she's onboard. If she's popular with other staff they may even make life more awkward.

maybe she's just new and still spouting the rules. I've found most scotrail staff to be reasonable as long as you come and go. They do have to deal with a lot of crap from passengers.

perhaps you're 6ft 4 and she was 4ft 10 and she felt intimidated no matter how polite you were?


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## magnatom (5 Apr 2009)

lazyfatgit,

Would you have let it go if you'd been chucked off the train at the last CC ride because some eegit (moi?) had go the last bike space before you? Eh?


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## lazyfatgit (5 Apr 2009)

magnatom said:


> lazyfatgit,
> 
> Would you have let it go if you'd been chucked off the train at the last CC ride because some eegit (moi?) had go the last bike space before you? Eh?



with my wit and charm i feel you, as a confrontational, incident coreographing camera merchant, would have been disembarking

And i don't need to commute on that train everyday.


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## Bollo (5 Apr 2009)

The ONLY hassle I've ever had off a guard occurred when my usual train was reported 'Full and Standing - No cycles' on its approach, due to a cancelled preceding train. I wasn't worried , because this train empties at my stop as all the students for the 6th form college get off. Sure enough, the train pulls in and _everyone _gets off - there are about 10 people left spread between two carriages. Me and another cyclist now put our bikes into the designated and empty cycle spaces and go and choose a table seat from the 80-odd free spaces.
A few minutes later and the guard rolls up - 

Guard - "Can't you read?" 
Us - "Huh"
Guard - "The board said no cycles - full and standing"
Us - "But the train is empty?!"
Guard - "It said no cycles."
Us - "WTF!?"

I stayed polite but it was a struggle. A little chat with a few of the friendly station staff at Winchester the next day confirmed that the guard was a notorious c0ck.

Its a pity, because most guards I've come across are fine and take a very pragmatic approach to bike storage - I've even sneaked a tandem on once or twice and, as long as it's not completely blocked the passage, they've been cool with it.


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## HJ (5 Apr 2009)

magnatom said:


> lazyfatgit,
> 
> Would you have let it go if you'd been chucked off the train at the last CC ride because some eegit (moi?) had go the last bike space before you? Eh?



Just scratch his bike next, it is far too shiny....


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## hackbike 666 (5 Apr 2009)

*(To be honest I think a greater health and safety issue would be the driver leaving his cabin at all when the rest of us are on the train expecting that he's driving it - but there you are.)*

What about a train fire which happened to me where I had to get out the cab pretty sharpish,the amount of times there are suitcases behind the door to trip over.No bikes though generally.

That's just a basic emergency.What if a passenger is ill or has a fit,derailment.

I have to get out and protect the train in case the passengers decide they want to get out the train pretty sharpish when it goes tits up.

If that was me with the train manager i'd try and play it by the book but then again I have to.I know it's not easy to do especially after a hard day.

Probably not a good idea asking for her name.Im not sure i'd like to give my details to an (*agressive) total stranger.If you have a problem report the train you were on and they can follow it on from there.

* Im not saying you were agressive but we do get it sometimes.


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## Bollo (5 Apr 2009)

hackbike 666 said:


> the passengers decide they want to get out the train pretty sharpish when it goes tits up.



WHEN it goes tits up?! What don't we know hackers? Actually, don't answer that, ignorance is bliss.


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## hackbike 666 (5 Apr 2009)

Bollo said:


> WHEN it goes tits up?! What don't we know hackers? Actually, don't answer that, ignorance is bliss.



Train fire,fatality,passenger illness or fit.Riot or fight on train.Cord pulled.Train failure,breakdown.door trouble.Can't think of any others at the moment.I've had all of those.

Think I have a reason to get out of the cab.


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## HLaB (5 Apr 2009)

I got a similar Jobsworth on the Dunfermline train a year back. I was on the very last train to Edinburgh which was completely empty except for me a student (also cyclist) and two non cyclists. The guard said the same to us; I put my bike upright on the hooks but the student didn't want to, something about that if he did it would cost him £50 to drain the hydraulic forks and he couldn't afford that (being a student). I tried to point out how stupid the guard was being but he put the student off the train too.


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## bonj2 (5 Apr 2009)

downfader said:


> Bonj, what the hell are you on about..?
> 
> His reason was perfectly justifiable by the sounds of it. Just because someone like her comes across as high-and-mighty doesnt mean you have to take it. As long as your polite and to the point.
> 
> Thats it, definately complain - and tell them Bonj told you to.



but the rule is there, and if she wants to enforce it she can enforce it.


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## hackbike 666 (5 Apr 2009)

HLaB said:


> I got a similar Jobsworth on the Dunfermline train a year back. I was on the very last train to Edinburgh which was completely empty except for me a student (also cyclist) and two non cyclists. The guard said the same to us; I put my bike upright on the hooks but the student didn't want to, something about that if he did it would cost him £50 to drain the hydraulic forks and he couldn't afford that (being a student). I tried to point out how stupid the guard was being but he put the student off the train too.





Yes it seems pointless.


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## bonj2 (5 Apr 2009)

User3143 said:


> +1 How's your appeal for your parking ticket coming along Bonj?



they're still navel gazing over it - but i will win it, because i didn't break any rules.


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## Bman (6 Apr 2009)

Having worked in Customer Services for quite a few years : 

Yes, the guard should have given her name! Or at least a firstname, train number etc.

Secondly, the OP did comply with the rules, although only after being prompted by said "guard". He still complied. 

Quite frankly, I would have waited for the police!


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## philr (6 Apr 2009)

complain bitches like that deserve it, besides she may already have a string of complaints and the management are building enough evidence to kick her into touch. what a nice thought that would be !!


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## bonj2 (6 Apr 2009)

philr said:


> complain bitches like that deserve it, besides she may already have a string of complaints and the management are building enough evidence to kick her into touch. what a nice thought that would be !!



I'll send a similar complaint if you like for a tenner.


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## philr (6 Apr 2009)

good point, how many members do we have at this time !! that should ensure she is out of a job by end of the week. 

wicked i know but she deserves it !!


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## hackbike 666 (6 Apr 2009)

*Yes, the guard should have given her name! Or at least a firstname, train number etc.*

I still think im within my rights not to give my name.


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## rnscotch (6 Apr 2009)

Ok a few points to point out... I was travelling from Glasgow Queen Street - Greenfaulds (Cumbernauld)

@ gavintc & Boni - I did hang my bike up, albeit after i POLITELY questioned her reasoning and this was before i asked her name. It was not until i asked for her details that she flipped and ordered me off the train. I had no real problems hanging my bike up apart from maybe breaking a few spokes again but if there is no consistency on this rule and you can travel for nearly 2 years without being asked to hang up your bike then obviously passengers are going to question it when asked. 

I agree everyone has a job to do but she was in my eyes out of order I was not abusive or aggressive and i complied with her request - she on the other hand was abusive, aggressive in her manner, would not give me her name (if you read the Scotrail charter it says guards wear a name tag with there first name) she physically hid her name badge and also would not contact or advise me how to contact a senior manager plus she stood there and lied. I even asked if could go on the train to ask the 2 ladies sitting next to me if they would mind being witnesses as to what happened the Station manager said yes and she refused to let me back on the train.

What makes my laugh is when folk park there prams in the bike aisles which then partiality blocks the aisle and nothing is said and also said folk won't move there prams for bikes when we come on the train and it clearly says FOR BIKES.

@snorri - What's my avatar got to do with anything? Yes i am a big lad about 19 or 20 stone and i have calf's like babies heads but what has that got to do with anything?. I have previously worked in a customer service role i know how to act and i also know how she should have acted.

@hackbike 666 - I can 100% assure you i was not being aggressive or acted in anyway for her to feel intimidated, Trust me when i say if i was being aggressive she would have known. Her saying what she said was simply a get out clause she has abused to justify her actions.


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## snorri (6 Apr 2009)

rnscotch said:


> @snorri - What's my avatar got to do with anything?


I considered it to be confrontational.


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## skwerl (6 Apr 2009)

philr said:


> good point, how many members do we have at this time !! that should ensure she is out of a job by end of the week.
> 
> wicked i know but she deserves it !!



are you for real? she deserves to lose her job? **** off.


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## hackbike 666 (6 Apr 2009)

*@hackbike 666 - I can 100% assure you i was not being aggressive or acted in anyway for her to feel intimidated, Trust me when i say if i was being aggressive she would have known. Her saying what she said was simply a get out clause she has abused to justify her actions.*

I never said that.

I can see it from both sides and although im not supporting her actions,unfortunately this sort of thing happens from time to time.

I should think her managers would know what she is like.By all means complain if you want to.If there are enough complaints against her name then obviously there is a problem.


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## skwerl (6 Apr 2009)

User3143 said:


> +1 Let's all send in bogus letters to get her the sack.



Re-read what I posted please. Maybe also read 'Eats shoots and leaves' as well.


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## Bman (6 Apr 2009)

hackbike 666 said:


> I still think im within my rights not to give my name.




Even working in a customer facing role with a name tag?

How would you feel if an Asda (or other supermarket) member of staff refused to show you their name?

I also believe if the police arrived, they would find it quite acceptable to give the passenger the guards name, before he complied with her wishes and left the train.

However, rnscotch. If you are as big as you say, maybe you were un-intentionally intimidating?


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## skwerl (6 Apr 2009)

User3143 said:


> What?



I'll re-phrase my original post, which was in reply to Philr suggesting we should all write in and complain to get her sacked:

"Are you for real? Are you seriously suggesting that she deserves to be sacked over this? That's a really shoot thing to do to someone over something pretty trivial."

Now, Lee, do you want to +1 that or not?

Punctuation can completely alter the context of a sentence. Hence the suggestion to read 'Eats shoots and leaves' (a book about punctuation)
http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A1f4cf...//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_&_Leaves


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## hackbike 666 (6 Apr 2009)

Bongman said:


> Even working in a customer facing role with a name tag?
> 
> How would you feel if an Asda (or other supermarket) member of staff refused to show you their name?
> 
> ...



What about if member of staff feels threatened?

Why would you have to ask a Guards name as on my region they generally have a name tag.


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## skwerl (6 Apr 2009)

User3143 said:


> Yes +1 to not writing in and getting the guard the sack.
> 
> Did you not see the  at the end of my post-here it is again



Touché! I tend to ignore emoticons. There's nothing about them in 'Eats shoots and leaves' so...  (that one's just for you)


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## hackbike 666 (6 Apr 2009)

I mean really,if you ask for someones name is it to send them a card at Christmas?


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## Bman (6 Apr 2009)

If the situation was really that threatening she should call/wait for the police. But I dont think they were required here.


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## rnscotch (6 Apr 2009)

It is quite hard to get someone's name when they purposely cover it with there jacket i did eventually get her name via the station duty manager it's not as if i was asking for her surname and address and as someone pointed out why wear a name tag if you don't want people to know your name.

If she feels threatened everytime she has a a conversation with a person of ordinary sensibilities then i would see a shrink if i was her.

There was nothing that i did that a normal sane person would construe as threatening or aggressive.

Ten years in the armed forces and 17 years as a door steward i know how to conduct myself as someone said she has saw me as questioning her authority and she did not like it, she knew what she was doing was wrong hence the hiding of her name and the not wanting me to speak with management further to this they have a clause where if they feel intimidated they can chuck people off the train which she quite conveniently used to cover what was going down. 

To quote the station manager i said to him "So guards can misuse this intimidation thing to meet there own ends" and his reply was "That's Unions for you, what can we do".

If i had been violent, aggressive or anything like it i am without doubt the police would have been involved which obviously they where not and this speaks volumes.

Do i think she should be sacked no i don't do i think she should be disciplined yes i do, I've already had offer from friends to write in bogus letters someone even suggested that i say i could smell drink from her but that is not me and i would not act in such a way.

Complaint has now been sent, after a bit of searching i managed to find the email address for the MD of scotrail so i cc'd her as well.


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## hackbike 666 (6 Apr 2009)

*and as someone pointed out why wear a name tag if you don't want people to know your name.*

I think it's in the rules for guards not personal choice.I have heard they can put made up names on their tags if they want to.I wear an I'D tag for security mainly which is not for the purpose of the passengers.The drink thingy is a bit cruel.I have heard that being used before.

Good luck with that hope you get it sorted.


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## domd1979 (7 Apr 2009)

The nearest BTP officer would probably have been 50 miles away anyway were their involvement required, you'd have been there all night waiting.



rnscotch said:


> If i had been violent, aggressive or anything like it i am without doubt the police would have been involved which obviously they where not and this speaks volumes.


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## hackbike 666 (8 Apr 2009)

Bongman said:


> Even working in a customer facing role with a name tag?
> 
> How would you feel if an Asda (or other supermarket) member of staff refused to show you their name?
> 
> ...



I've been thinking about this one and what strikes me was a member of staff being rude to me in a hotel I was staying at and treating me like a thief when I almost skipped a £6 bill for breakfast of which I thought had been paid for and it hadn't.I was incensed,no way would I try a trick like that.Anyway I was so pissed of with this comedian that I was strongly tempted to complain about his attitude.At no time however was I tempted to ask his name.Believe me this really did ruin my holiday being branded as a thief when all it was was a simple mistake.

Also asking for someones name seems to be sort of attention seeking "look at me im going to tell on you".I think it would probably get this woman's back up I think possibly it may with me.

I've never had anyone ask my name in my job which is surprising as I must admit I have got a bit stroppy when a passenger has got a bit stroppy with me.

This is only my opinion so please don't take offence.Cheers.

*Its a pity, because most guards I've come across are fine and take a very pragmatic approach to bike storage - I've even sneaked a tandem on once or twice and, as long as it's not completely blocked the passage, they've been cool with it.*

Yes I must admit as a driver I have my bad days but I have never chucked a cyclist off but have normally turned a blind eye to the proceedings.


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## Cromcruaich (8 Apr 2009)

All depends on your outlook on life. 

You can take every day as a struggle for truth, fairness and justice, but sometimes, on the little things, it pays to know when to keep your trap shut, also more than one way to skin a cat - thought as a doorman you'd be a better judge of character, deflecting people by engaging them as people and not as job functions will often get much better results - you should of told her she had lovely eyes.


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## sw3008 (8 Apr 2009)

You have every right to ask for a name & she has every right to refuse.

As far as I'm aware, there is no legal obligation for any one to give their name out.

The other side of this is that would she have refused if you were going to write to say she was most helpful & understanding & that you wanted her bosses to know about it.

I'd chalk it to experience & let it go.


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## skrx (30 Apr 2009)

I've just sent off a complaint to South West Trains.

I decided during the day to go into central London after work. I was a bit tired, so I decided to take the train from near work to Waterloo -- it's about 40 minutes once on the train.

On the platform, I was near the front of the train. I didn't see the bike carriage (marked with a little yellow pictogram by the door buttons) so I ran down the length of the train -- past the guard -- to the other end. When I got to the other end, the doors started closing as I stopped in front of them, and didn't open when I pressed the button. I looked back and saw the guard, but he just turned away from me and the train moved off.

_This is the second time this has happened_ -- and the previous time was the same station, and probably the same service. I found a phone number for SWT on one of their advertising posters, and called to make a complaint. I was told that my complaint was against a specific member of staff, so had to be made in writing. I asked if this was meant to put me off complaining, but the call centre script didn't have an answer to that. The telephone person did confirm that a time and departure station would be enough to identify the guard on the train.


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## gavintc (30 Apr 2009)

Give the guard a break. We either want Germanic punctuality where trains run to a schedule or the old laissez faire BR style where the timetable was a negotiable document. If we want punctuality, a train must leave to meet its schedule on a fixed time. if you miss the train - that is not the train guard's fault.


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## swee'pea99 (30 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> so you weren't chucked off a train for NO reason, you were chucked off a train for a reason that you don't deem justifiable...
> You seem to feel you have the right to contravene rules that it doesn't suit you to obey simply because YOU can't see any reason why it makes a difference.
> 
> I think there's no problem with putting your bike like that, and she was probably being a bit petty and having a bad day and picked on you 'cos she was feeling a little grumpy - but at the end of the day she was theoretically right, so you're in the wrong to think you can just challenge her. Some people get a buzz out of having power of people and telling them what to do, and if they're feeling a little disaffected then they have a go at telling someone what to do just to see if they can make them do it - you were the victim, but you should have seen that that's what she was doing and realized it was only going to wind her up more to refuse.
> ...



The BS-meister strikes again! If you actually read the account properly, you'll see that he did exactly what he was asked (after having pointed out, as is surely his right, that it didn't seem to him to be necessary), and was then thrown off the train for asking her name, which he has every right to do. 

She was bang out of order. She was rude to a member of the public for no justifiable reason, and she abused her position of authority. Complain.


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## ComedyPilot (30 Apr 2009)

You should have smiled at her, placed your bike on the rack, and quietly whisped how cycling is good for getting rid of cellulite. Then when she explodes, you have the whole carriage as a witness.


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## skrx (30 Apr 2009)

gavintc said:


> if you miss the train - that is not the train guard's fault.



There should be enough slack in the timetable to allow people to get on and off the train. What if someone had wanted to board the train in a wheelchair?

I wasn't running for the train -- I was standing on the platform waiting for it, but I can't predict exactly where the bike carriage will stop (front or back of train?).


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## Greenbank (30 Apr 2009)

skrx said:


> I wasn't running for the train -- I was standing on the platform waiting for it, but I can't predict exactly where the bike carriage will stop (front or back of train?).



I usually stand in the middle of the platform and look at the train as it goes past. If I see the bike section I walk towards the front of the train and jump on. If I don't see it then it's probably at the other end and I can walk towards the back of the train. If there's a chance I won't make it before the doors shut I'll just jump on and get off at the next stop to move further up the train until I've found it.


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## gavintc (30 Apr 2009)

skrx said:


> There should be enough slack in the timetable to allow people to get on and off the train. What if someone had wanted to board the train in a wheelchair?
> 
> I wasn't running for the train -- I was standing on the platform waiting for it, but I can't predict exactly where the bike carriage will stop (front or back of train?).



OK sorry. I had not picked that up in your earlier post. It does seem a little bit over-keen on the guards part.


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## snorri (30 Apr 2009)

skrx said:


> I wasn't running for the train -- I was standing on the platform waiting for it, but I can't predict exactly where the bike carriage will stop (front or back of train?).


I know where the bike carriage will stop at my local stations, but when boarding a train elsewhere I ask the station staff where I should stand before the train comes in. I have always found them helpful in this respect.
I discovered a wonderful system in Germany where you can work out where to stand from information on your travel ticket, maybe we will get there some day.


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## Greenbank (30 Apr 2009)

snorri said:


> I know where the bike carriage will stop at my local stations, but when boarding a train elsewhere I ask the station staff where I should stand before the train comes in. I have always found them helpful in this respect.



Doesn't always work though. I got the train back from the Elenith on Sunday and had to change at Birmingham New St.

I was told to go to the far end of the platform to wait for someone to open the doors for my bike. She was standing with me as the train pulled in.

However, due to someone trespassing on the tracks not far from the station many of the trains out of New St were cancelled and/or rerouted. My train came in the wrong way round (since it was now going to London via a different loop) and we (me and the woman from Virgin trains) had to run the length of the train to get the bike on the other end. Further delays meant that it didn't set off for another 10 minutes anyway.

I had another similar incident coming back from a DIY 300 up to Thorne. Train from Doncaster back to London was due in, I'd asked where to stand and was waiting patiently, but with only 2 minutes warning they changed platforms (luckily just to the other side) and the bike spaces were at the opposite end of the train. Thankfully they waited for us to get the bikes on.


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## skrx (1 May 2009)

I'm about to sound like I have an answer for everything...

- The station is unstaffed

- It's relatively busy, quite a few people get off. That makes running with the bike more difficult, although most people step to the side.

- I stood in the place the bike coach was for the next train, but that one turned out to be 4 coaches rather than 8, and the bike coach was at the opposite end anyway. ½ the trains do a loop (from Waterloo, destination: Waterloo), the others don't. I only go straight from work occasionally anyway.

- I'll get on anywhere if the train is mostly empty, but I feel I should be in the correct place if people are having to stand.
A month ago the same thing happened (same station, about the same time), except that time the guard actually shouted, "you need to go to the back with that!" before shutting the doors while I was running. It happening twice is why I complained.

I cycled home from Waterloo along the route that I would take from work to Waterloo, and it was nicer than I thought it would be (and work-home is OK). Next time I think I'll just cycle all the way, it should take about an hour (the train is ~45 minutes +5-10 wait. And £3.).


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## Black Sheep (1 May 2009)

hackbike 666 said:


> *and as someone pointed out why wear a name tag if you don't want people to know your name.*
> 
> I think it's in the rules for guards not personal choice.I have heard they can put made up names on their tags if they want to.I wear an I'D tag for security mainly which is not for the purpose of the passengers.The drink thingy is a bit cruel.I have heard that being used before.
> 
> Good luck with that hope you get it sorted.



a friend of mine works on the customer service desk of sainsburys and goes by a false name - management know if anyone complains about her by her false name who they are talking about but it makes her feel safer to go about her daily life.


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## Crankarm (1 May 2009)

Forcing customers to write in to complain is a std fobbing off tactic used by many customer service departments. At a large home furnishings company I worked for customers who called to complain could have their complaints resolved over the phone which I tried to do where ever possible, but many colleagues couldn't be bothered and told customers they had to write in knowing that most wouldn't bother.

Back to bikes on trains. If you are having difficulties with your bike on trains then get a Brompton no such worries .


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## Greenbank (1 May 2009)

skrx said:


> I cycled home from Waterloo along the route that I would take from work to Waterloo, and it was nicer than I thought it would be (and work-home is OK). Next time I think I'll just cycle all the way, it should take about an hour (the train is ~45 minutes +5-10 wait. And £3.).



Do it. I do Putney to Southbank and I'm much happier than I was paying £600 a year to SouthWorstTrains.


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## killiekosmos (1 May 2009)

I'd not follow up on the complaint. I use Scotrail Sprinters regularly and I always hand the bike us as directed.

If you do decide to complain ask if the train has CCTV then use your rights under Data Protection Act to see footage. Just tell them date, time, etc to identify the train, but why bother?


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## skrx (1 May 2009)

Greenbank said:


> Do it. I do Putney to Southbank and I'm much happier than I was paying £600 a year to SouthWorstTrains.



That's exactly the route I meant to take home, except I crossed Lambeth bridge and missed the turning to King's Road, so went round the fancy houses to Putney Bridge instead (in both cases because I was following NCR 4 signs rather than thinking about where I was going).

I cycle from Putney to Kew for work. I've cycled from work to the west end a few times, but not as far as the south bank (15km). On Wednesday I didn't want to be late, and as I haven't done Kew-Waterloo before I took the train -- I have a tendancy to get lost if I haven't cycled a route before. I cycled home from Waterloo so I could find the route, so next time I'll probably cycle both ways.

I'm considering getting a cheap (£100) folding bike, but at the moment I don't think I'd use it enough.


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## skrx (4 May 2009)

I had a much better experience with (mostly) Virgin trains this weekend.
I booked a reservation online for a return journey (with bike) from Euston to Stafford. The outward journey was fine -- the staff were polite, the driver joked with me while I was putting my bike in the space (behind his cab).

The return journey wasn't so good -- I got to Stafford station on Sunday, and went to the platforms, but there were yellow diggers everywhere. I showed someone my cycling (and seat) reservation for the 12:25 to Euston, and they got the manager. He apologised, and said they'd cancelled all the trains through Stafford for the weekend, but that one had been missed -- that explained why I'd had no problem booking a ticket on it. He had a word with the rail-replacement bus driver, who said so long as I lifted it in myself, it could go in the coach. Excellent. (Still annoying that they close the railway so much, but my journey was delayed only the same amount as people without bikes.)


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## skrx (7 May 2009)

Crankarm said:


> Forcing customers to write in to complain is a std fobbing off tactic used by many customer service departments.



Having received a reply, I'm not sure it was worth writing in anyway:



> Dear __
> 
> I am very sorry to learn that you had difficulty getting on a train at ___ with your bike recently. I appreciate that the train leaving must have been frustrating for you, however, it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are on the train in time, and the Guard was correct to ensure the doors were closed and the train ready leave on time.
> 
> ...


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## ferret fur (7 May 2009)

This reminds me of a letter received by someone who complained about being bitten by fleas on a sleeper service. They recieved a grovelling letter of apology which said that this was a terribly rare event, that sleeper beds were fumigated regularly, that the complaint was taken very seriously and that there would be a full internal inquiry into why an infested carriage had been used on this service etc etc. 

The effect of this reply was slightly diluted by the inclusion in the envelope of the original complaint to which was attached a Post-It note which read "Just send 'em the standard flea bite letter"


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## John Ponting (7 May 2009)

]I note that you were stood at the end of the platform and would recommend that in future you may find it beneficial to stand nearer to the middle said:


> Binary chop instructions are always welcome from condescending jobs worths at rail companies.


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