# Do clip in shoes really give that much of an advantage?



## Blowfish (25 Feb 2012)

Took my first new road bike (alllez elite specialized) out for its first ride today with a friend of mine that is a few years younger and fitter than me.

We both have very similar bikes yet I was unexpectantly so much faster than him. Over 25 miles I must have stopped 6 times to wait for him to catch up.

Could the advantage be down to me having clip in shoes/pedals and him not?


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## StuAff (25 Feb 2012)

Perhaps he's not actually that fit- at least on a bike. Clipless would undoubtedly help, but I wouldn't have thought by that much....


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## gbb (25 Feb 2012)

There's so many variables Blowfish, but i doubt the pedals made that much difference.
The variables ?
Is he already a road bike rider ? Its just a normal ride to him perhaps, some days you're on it, some days its just not there, perhaps this was one of his off days.
You however have the advantage and 'zing' that you're pumped up, excited etc on your first ride. That will give you an advantage (in theory). But, if he was on an off day (and we all have them), your day will come unfortunately .

Then perhaps there's the scenario he rides a roadbike, so he's fast..yes ?. Not neccessarily so. Ive ridden roadbikes for 10 to 15 years now. I'm faster than a lot of younger guys, but occasionally you meet a guy who's older, faster and fitter then yourself. Its a bit of a come down, and then you think, sod it, i'm still fitter than 90% of people i know, (cyclists or not)...i'm happy with that.


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## oldfatfool (25 Feb 2012)

The biggest advantage is for comically falling over outside your own front gate


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## Thomk (25 Feb 2012)

Were you faster on the hills? Maybe you have stronger legs.


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## Blowfish (25 Feb 2012)

He is also new to cycling and today was his first outing. He is a bit of a fitness fanatic whereas I am not so I automatically assumed he would be fitter and faster than me and now he is not I thought maybe it was my pedal/shoes that gave me the advantage. Great feeling if it's not down to the pedals!
Got the cycling bug in a big way now can't wait to get out again!


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## Blowfish (25 Feb 2012)

?



oldfatfool said:


> The biggest advantage is for comically falling over outside your own front gate


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## Blowfish (25 Feb 2012)

Yes on the hills and straights by a big margin!



Thomk said:


> Were you faster on the hills? Maybe you have stronger legs.


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## fossyant (25 Feb 2012)

Ah cycling is very specific fitness. Don't let the gym addicts tell you they are super fit. Cycle fit is very different.

Clipless help in climbing and sprinting. Just means you can put full power into the leg stroke. It's only an advantage once you know how to use the full leg stroke, it's 360 pedalling. I don't ride a bike without clipless, even towing my daughter on a tag a long


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## oldfatfool (25 Feb 2012)

Blowfish said:


> ?


 
After riding over 300km since going clipless and never having a clipless moment I was bedding in some new pads this afternoon ..........


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## uberguru (25 Feb 2012)

I think Fossyant hit the nail on the head. It depends upon "fit for what"!, I am a seasoned elite squash player who is considered to be fit, however when I was forced to extend my cross training portfolio in cross country running and cycling I was certainly not fit for the purpose. The benefit in having a wide portfolio of discplines does enhance my squash and its far better scenery than the same four walls all the time!


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## MattHB (25 Feb 2012)

For me the benefits of being clipless aren't performance gains. Once set up right (this took me a little while), and once you've learned to pedal in a circle it's hugely comfy, and extremely nice not to have to fiddle with foot position. I adore the feeling of being connected to the bike as well. It's a cliche but it's a real 'man and machine' feeling.

I am sure tho that circular pedaling (power on all 4 strokes) increases endurance as your using different muscles for some of them.

I'd never go back now, and I've never fallen.


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## Graham1426 (25 Feb 2012)

Agree with above poster, clips make you "feel part of the bike" would never go back, but i doubt thay would give you that margin of advantage over your cycling buddy.


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## MontyVeda (25 Feb 2012)

ah this is refreshing... I've heard a fair bit of bull regarding clips over the years, including "_50% more pedal power_!"


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## PaulSecteur (25 Feb 2012)

I rode my brothers bike with normal flat pedals the other day... HORRIBLE!!!

As fossy said, cycle fitness is very specific. Ther have been a few posts where decent runners have decided to try cycling and found it hard going.


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## TonyEnjoyD (25 Feb 2012)

I personally would say that they would give you some advantages...
Firstly clip less shoes have minimal sole flex so maximum transfer of power to the pedal, as well as that improved pedalling technique (heel drop, pulling on the upstroke etc) will help a rider toward 360 degree pedalling.
Added to this is the confidence that fast climbing, over rough surfaces etc that your Pete will stay fixed to the pedal so more chance of you not easing off the pressure in case of an slip.

Again, this is my personal thought based on my experiences and that of my cycling buddies and not necessarily those of the other forum members.

Tony


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## HLaB (26 Feb 2012)

MontyVeda said:


> ah this is refreshing... I've heard a fair bit of bull regarding clips over the years, including "_50% more pedal power_!"


Clipless IMO do give some advantage but whoever said that is talking Bull indeed.


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## Holdsworth (26 Feb 2012)

I do think that clipless pedals do give an advantage if you know how to use them correctly and exploit their potential. Me, well I simply prefer the feeling of being clipped in over being on a flat pedal. I do tend to pull up slightly more but I have still not got the hang of 360 degree pedalling even after nearly a year of using SPD pedals and shoes. Maybe I should learn how to but I do not know how it will benefit my riding in general.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (26 Feb 2012)

I would say certainly that they do.
To start off with consider where throughout the 360 degrees of pedal rotation on 'normal' pedals can you put power, from the top of the stroke to the bottom, so for 1 leg your getting 180 degrees of drive through the crank. Add clipless to the mix and your can follow that drive through the upstroke too, its not the equivalent power of the down stroke as you don't have gravity, bodyweight and your strongest muscles there, but its definitely significant. I would be interested to see the power ratio of upstroke and down stroke.

Secondly clipless pedals require special shoes, these shoes have rigid soles, the lack of flex in the rigid soles means that you dont lose as much power through the flex as in an ordinary trainer.

Tired legs will utilize a clipless pedal really well, if your quads start lagging you will find that your trying harder on the upstroke to compensate for this (or at least I do), it can be bad practice, but when your riding 80 miles it can be comforting to know that you can always use the upstrokes to get you up those final hills when your quads refuse to work any more.

I wouldnt consider riding a road bike without clipless ever again. the first time I went out with a cycling club i was without clipless, they lost me so quick they hadnt even realised the dropped me. i went back the following week with clipless and although difficult, i managed to hold their tail.

You must realise though that if you invest in clipless, you need to spend time learning to use them properly.


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## HLaB (26 Feb 2012)

Their biggest advantage to me isn't a mechanical efficiency one; its feet not slipping off the pedals and having a nice bruise in mu shin.


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## slowmotion (26 Feb 2012)

I went clipless 5000 miles ago and I'm still rubbish. Maybe I'd be even more rubbish without them. Dunno.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (26 Feb 2012)

I would say there is a big difference in high end clipless and low end clipless pedals too though. I have 2 sets of pedals, one set is campagnolo pro fit and the other is the most basic shimano. My Campag cleats are bust and ive been riding with my shimanos for a while, and the difference is staggering, too much side to side float in cheap pedals, also some up and down movement on the pedal which would reduce the amount of upwards torque on the crank, the bearings in them are a bit cheaper and stiffer too. Only benefit is the cheap pedals clip in and out easier so are great for newbies to clipless.... I know it wasnt the question, but thought i would chuck it in anyways. I feel more sturdy and more comfortable running the pro fits, especially for out of the saddle uphill work.


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## guitarpete247 (26 Feb 2012)

I went out a couple of days ago. On some of the up hill sections I found myself slowing and made a concious effort to pull up as well as push down. I found myself speeding up and the pedalling getting easier. I always did with toe clips and straps years ago. So yes at an advantage .


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## Speedywheelsjeans (26 Feb 2012)

Alembicbassman said:


> I have the basic SPD M520 on my MTB and the older SPD M505 on my tourer, they're fine for stop start riding and pootling, you can walk in the shoes properly too. I have the SPD SL5650 on my road bike, single sided with the wider platform.They are more efficient, better bearings, the Specialized BG road shoes are also very stiff compared to the lace-up touring shoes I have, but you can't walk in them very easily. So it's horses for courses really. I never got on with toe straps, made the change to SPD in 1997 when I started commuting to Heathrow Airport, still remember the day I had my first clipless moment on the Heathrow Perimeter Road.


 
Gotta love your first clipless moment...

thought process goes like this...

'oh dear need to put foot on solid ground'
*panic*
'lift leg off pedal?'
*panic some more*
'foot wont come loose.. pull harder'
* you and bike are now 45 degrees closer to the floor*
'how the hell do I get my foot out now'
*45 degrees later you hit the deck and your foot comes loose*
'im freee '
'Oh yea.. twist'


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## BrumJim (26 Feb 2012)

I'd say that there are two advantages.
The first is that moment muscling your way up a small incline or very short hill, when the strength of two legs beats that of one.
Secondly, with flat pedals, you are always having to put some force (if only a little) into keeping the upward moving foot on the pedal. With clipless, you don't have to waste any force resisting your own efforts.

But it is still fitness that makes the biggest difference - either general or how you are feeling on the day.


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## Psyclist (26 Feb 2012)

Blowfish said:


> Took my first new road bike (alllez elite specialized) out for its first ride today with a friend of mine that is a few years younger and fitter than me.
> 
> We both have very similar bikes yet I was unexpectantly so much faster than him. Over 25 miles I must have stopped 6 times to wait for him to catch up.
> 
> Could the advantage be down to me having clip in shoes/pedals and him not?


 
Didn't read through the posts but clipless pedals make a big difference as foot retention over clips and straps and even more over flat pedals.

They increase power transfer by a big amount, so yes clipless pedals help a lot.


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## Norm (27 Feb 2012)

My first ride with clipless was around 2 minutes faster on a 45 minute mixed off-road / road route than the previous ride without clipless pedals. How much was down to just wearing new shoes / pedals, how much was down to enthusiasm and how much was down to being clipped to the bike, I have no idea.


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## rollinstok (27 Feb 2012)

When I first tried clipless on my touring bike they helped a great deal towards increasing the distance covered on a daily basis. They are definitely faster on hill climbs, I also believe that when you are spinning correctly they will cover more ground than if you were using the same set up without clipless. On long rides i even used to rest a leg at a time while letting the other one do most of the work. I,ve no idea of the statistics but I would be very surprised if ANY of the TDF riders dont use clipless and there is a good reason for that.


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## screenman (27 Feb 2012)

Dr Auriel Forrester of Scientiﬁc Coaching: “Pulling up on the pedals decreases power output as it interferes with the all-important downstroke on the other side – speciﬁcally, you can’t pull up against gravity at the same rate or same force as you can push down with gravity!”

I use SPD on all my bikes but there is some interesting reading about pulling up etc.


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## GrasB (27 Feb 2012)

To put some figures on it.

After many 1000s of miles of riding on clipless in a flat cruise on my nominal power output about 1% of my power is produced on the upstroke. However I'm exerting up to .14N of downwards force on the pedal during the upstroke, that's not enough force to actually keep my foot placed properly on the pedal, even with 'spikes' in the pedal, when on an ergo trainer let alone out on the road where there are bumps. From there I utilize more & more upstroke as the power increases until in a flat out sprint about 20-25% of my power when sprinting is made on the upstroke. Put this in perspective, a typical cyclist who hasn't used clipless or tight toe-clips for a reasonable period is typically reducing their nominal power by 5% +/-2% on the upstroke.


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## GrasB (27 Feb 2012)

screenman said:


> Dr Auriel Forrester of Scientiﬁc Coaching: “Pulling up on the pedals decreases power output as it interferes with the all-important downstroke on the other side – speciﬁcally, you can’t pull up against gravity at the same rate or same force as you can push down with gravity!”


I'd suggest he actually starts to look at pedal load plots. I've got a lot of plots from not only me but a number of national & international pro cyclists which make this statement laughable.


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## Norm (27 Feb 2012)

GrasB said:


> I'd suggest he actually starts to look at pedal load plots. I've got a lot of plots from not only me but a number of national & international pro cyclists which make this statement laughable.


I know little to nothing on the details, but the quote did make me wonder whether Dr Auriel Forrester had ever climbed any stairs.


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## colly (27 Feb 2012)

Not just more efficient. Safer too.
With clips and straps, in the event of an accident, you might be dragged by your tied in feet to wherever your bike ends up. With clipless you do magically separate from the pedals. I know, and so do many others. My bike was a twisted mass under the car, I was on the other side of the car, sore but otherwise OK.
On bumpy roads too. No clips and straps and no clipless means your foot is always bobbling about on the face of the pedal. I have had my foot bounce right off when on a hire bike on holiday. Also in the wet your foot easily slips.


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## RAYMOND (27 Feb 2012)

Was he fitter than you or did he just look fitter, ie more muscular,defined.
Just because a guy looks big and muscular doesn't mean he as the cardio muscular fitness needed to cycle/run.
Also you could be fitter in one sport/discipline and not so in another.


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

I'm impressed by the level of 'anecdata' on this thread, it has surpassed other clipless threads in short order. The one coming closest to accuracy is GrasB but his level of cycling, and those he references, is so far beyond most of us, and always will be, that comparisons don't mean much. If that's the sort of cyclist you are, or have ambitions to become, then you need all the kit. As usual Norm gives some realworld data and admits that it's not possible to refine the exact contribution from the pedals.

But then we have the real gems - I was particularly taken by the explanation of clipless shoes having stiffer soles, then road shoes stiffer again but, but best of all, road specific pedals having a larger platform. Hmmm, for pedal efficiency you need a larger platform that is a rigid as possible...now what does that bring to mind???

I also love the idea that clipless aren't just more efficient but they are SAFER as well, that actually made me chuckle.

Most of us, definitely including me, have nothing like the physical attributes or mental dedication to maximise the potential of even the most basic equipment. This is pretty much true across all sports/hobbies and the lower down the food chain you are the less performance you are able to extract from kit.

Use whatever you want, spend whatever you want(I do), but give the marketing nonsense a rest as a means of self justification.


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## screenman (27 Feb 2012)

Have you actually tried any of the so called marketing nonsense products?


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

screenman said:


> Have you actually tried any of the so called marketing nonsense products?


 
plenty and not just in cycling - I disliked clipless pedals(I've also had powergrips, regular clips and Holdfast) for a variety of reasons. but the main two were not enough return for the hassle and not being able to jump on my bike in whatever I had on my feet.

I can go fast enough and far enough, 'safely', as I am, if that situation changes then I may need to revisit pedals...keep an open mind and all that.


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## pepecat (27 Feb 2012)

I ride with toe clips and straps and MUCH prefer it to clipless. Tried going clipless for a while last year and didn't like it really. Don't the feeling of being 'attached' to the bike by the sole of my foot. It is very different from being 'attached' to the bike by having my toes in a clip. I've never had my feet slipping off the pedals in wet conditions, or had my feet bobbling about all over the pedals on a bumpy road.... that's just never happened.
If i need to put in a bit more effort to get up hills than those going clipless, then fine. I'll ultimately end up fitter than you lot, so ner!! 

But seriously, i think it's whatever suits you and what you like. I've tried clipless, i don't think it's for me. I probably will try again at some point, but it got me so anxious the first few times that i didn't want to go out cycling for fear of falling off, which kinda defeats the whole point of enjoying cycling.


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## pepecat (27 Feb 2012)

Question though, is it possible to try out various clips and stuff at bike shops? I have look keo cleats / pedals and don't much like them, but i might be better suited to shimano spds, or those eggbeater ones from crank brothers. I don't really want to spend money on various sets of cleats and pedals though. Maybe we could have a 'cleat and pedal library' here, like the saddle one.


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## normskirus (27 Feb 2012)

Hi

Went clipless October 2011 and had first clipless moment within 5 minutes of leaving the house - much to the amusement of mother and daughter in the car behind me.
So what has clipless done for me. I like the positive feel of being clipped in and not having think of keeping my foot square on the pedal. Spinning the pedals seems easier and I would say my cadence has improved. Has it made my 20 mile round trip commute faster? - no. It still takes me 40 to 45 minutes each way with an average speed of about 22km/hr. Im also a bit wary of the pull up idea. Im not a doctor but it seems to me that our leg joints (ankles/knees) are designed have evolved to handle compression rather than be under tension.
So to answer the original posters question - clipless may have made a small difference but being more bike fit makes the most in my opinion. Do more miles, more often with hills will make you faster - simple.

Normskirus


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## Norm (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> The one coming closest to accuracy is GrasB but his level of cycling, and those he references, is so far beyond most of us, and always will be, that comparisons don't mean much. If that's the sort of cyclist you are, or have ambitions to become, then you need all the kit. As usual Norm gives some realworld data and admits that it's not possible to refine the exact contribution from the pedals.


GrasB is more accurate than me? I'm disappointed. 

Mac has tried them all, and didn't like them, so I don't think the luddite comments are really applicable.

People are quick to laugh off the clipless moments, maybe I should introduce them to a friend of mine who was hospitalised for months after shattering his **either tibia or fibula, it's not really relevant and it could have been both** falling off and catching his shin on the edge of a pavement.

I like the SPD's on my road bike as I'm happy wearing cycling shoes when all I'm doing is going out for a ride. However, I'm even happier that my MTB and hacks have flats so I can just jump on and ride them.

How does that mark out my mental dedication?


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

Alembicbassman said:


> Above all if you find it too technical you could always play golf instead - using hickory shaft clubs and feather balls of course, as the modern stuff is all marketing nonsense and that most golfers don't have the physical attributes or mental dedication to maximise the potential of even the most basic equipment.


 
Some of that is true, give me a cheap, but functional, set of clubs and I'll beat most of you on a golf course regardless of how much you spend on kit and fitting. Why? because I put in the practice...or at least I would have done prior to the elbow surgeries, I'd probably struggle to get better than about 12 over now....but that's still good enough to beat most golfers in the world. Was I ever any where near pro level? - not even remotely, most people could have reached my level by putting in the practice, but most people will never get within sniffing distance of pro standards, even if they put in the practice.

A bit of golfing marketing nonsense - since I first played 40 years ago every 'technological' step forward has been 'guaranteed' to add distance and accuracy over previous improvements. If you added them all together then your modern golfer should be driving the ball 3000+ yards with pinpoint precision. Average handicaps would have improved beyond recognition, they haven't.

Interestingly, or not, a pro, or just decent low handicap amateur, could use old hickory shafted clubs and beat you, as long as they could use a modern golf ball. My Dad used to make his own clubs from components and he played off 1. My brother used to need all the latest and greatest kit, decades in advance of the kit my Dad used, and his best handicap was 3. But they both snapped up the latest advances in golf ball technology.


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## GrasB (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> I'm impressed by the level of 'anecdata' on this thread, it has surpassed other clipless threads in short order. The one coming closest to accuracy is GrasB but his level of cycling, and those he references, is so far beyond most of us, and always will be, that comparisons don't mean much. If that's the sort of cyclist you are, or have ambitions to become, then you need all the kit. As usual Norm gives some realworld data and admits that it's not possible to refine the exact contribution from the pedals.


The thing is would the likes of norm likely go out & get per-pedal plots of their power production?



> But then we have the real gems - I was particularly taken by the explanation of clipless shoes having stiffer soles, then road shoes stiffer again but, but best of all, road specific pedals having a larger platform. Hmmm, for pedal efficiency you need a larger platform that is a rigid as possible...now what does that bring to mind???


Flat pedals, but hey you've missed something. With flat pedals if you're actually pedaling efficiently enough for the large platform to be of use you'll find you feet are being kicked off the pedals by road vibration etc.


> I also love the idea that clipless aren't just more efficient but they are SAFER as well, that actually made me chuckle.


Safer than toe-clips. IME clipless are easier to get out of quickly when you're hassled & tend to let your feet go when you hit the ground.


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

GrasB said:


> The this is would the likes of norm likely go out & get per-pedal plots of their power production?
> 
> 
> Flat pedals, but hey you've missed something. With flat pedals if you're actually pedaling efficiently enough for the large platform to be of use you'll find you feet are being kicked off the pedals by road vibration etc.
> ...


 
I never claimed to be pedalling efficiently or to have desires to improve my efficiency in this area - as I said I will revisit those thoughts if I get those desires. What I did say was that my feet didn't fly off the pedals and that I was satisfied with the speeds and distances I was able to achieve. I cycle for utility, exercise or socially and my current needs are being met by flat pedals.

So if clipless are safer than clips are flats safer than both of them?


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## GrasB (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> So if clipless are safer than clips are flats safer than both of them?


Different risk set so hard to say. I still have marks on my legs from trying to ride with flat pedals on my MTB but then again I'm a fairly hard core road rider. I'm aware of people who have fallen off their bikes when they've become unfooted riding with flat pedals on bumps etc & one person sustained serious injuries. Though it wouldn't surprise me to find these people riding with totally inappropriate shoes like my leather sole boating shoes (they have almost 0 grip on any wet metal or plastic, including soft rubber).


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## tyred (27 Feb 2012)

Perhaps it's time for the shoe ruse

I have seen many threads on this and other cycling forums about cleat setup and the pain/problems caused by incorrect setup. I have seen many threads about clipless moments. I have seen occasional threads about people wondering how to get their feet into toe clips but that is easy with a little practice. I have never seen any threads about people unable to set their flat pedals up correctly! I have also seen many threads about people with cold feet in the winter. Clipless shoes seem to have gaps in the soles. I can ride with hiking boots in winter and have never experienced cold feet.

Of course there are advantages to clipless pedals, the pros wouldn't use them otherwise. But to me, and I suspect most riders of average ability, we will never be able to extract any real benefit. Besides, the flat pedals fitted to most bikes as standard are usually horrible hard plastic things which offer little grip. I have never had a problem with my feet slipping off quality pedals. I do ride with toe clips on both my fixed gear bikes for a little extra security but I never feel the need to pull them tight. I know that donning a pair of clipless pedals will not allow me to sprint past Lance Armstrong.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> But then we have the real gems - I was particularly taken by the explanation of clipless shoes having stiffer soles, then road shoes stiffer again but, but best of all, road specific pedals having a larger platform. Hmmm, for pedal efficiency you need a larger platform that is a rigid as possible...now what does that bring to mind???


 
So if you push a crank with a flexible foam tube it creates the same force as pushing a crank with a rigid I section beam? The I section beam will transfer more of its potential energy through the crank than the foam which will lose a lot of it through flex. Thats the idea behind rigid soles being more efficient than a flexible trainer. The difference between rigid soles and trainers isnt super human, but certainly enough to create a better pedaling efficiency and an increase in power transfer, any small edge you can get is important in my opinion. It depends what your aim is, if your just doing it as a hobby then you can probably ignore clipless as it doesnt actually have any effect on fitness or enjoyment. but if your trying to be competitive then I would say going without clipless isnt a good idea if you want to stay with the pack. But you MUST learn to use them for them to make the difference!

I dont run them on my MTB's unless I am doing some serious cross country, but I wouldnt ride a road bike without them, I dont think clipless users should assume they are any better than those who dont use them though.

The larger platform stuff is rubbish! I agree there.


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

GrasB said:


> Different risk set so hard to say. I still have marks on my legs from trying to ride with flat pedals on my MTB but then again I'm a fairly hard core road rider. I'm aware of people who have fallen off their bikes when they've become unfooted riding with flat pedals on bumps etc & one person sustained serious injuries. Though it wouldn't surprise me to find these people riding with totally inappropriate shoes like my leather sole boating shoes (they have almost 0 grip on any wet metal or plastic, including soft rubber).


 
 It was tongue in cheek but you've got me going now. Next argument - nearly all solo falls are due to poor rider risk assessment. If it's been frosty overnight then falling on black ice is your own fault, if you ride over stuff that causes you to lose your feet, or fall off, then that's your own fault. if you ride at speeds that exceed your skills level then the consequences are your own fault.

So my feet stay on the pedals because I am risk averse - I can live with that  Perhaps that's where people go wrong, they think people like me would be less risk averse with the right equipment, thus underestimating my natural cowardice.

for example, the distance you could put over me on the flat or going uphill would be considerable. But it would be dwarfed by the distance you could sting me for going downhill. Even as a kid I was always the last one down the hills and it's not changed


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## Speedywheelsjeans (27 Feb 2012)

tyred said:


> Perhaps it's time for the shoe ruse
> 
> I have seen many threads on this and other cycling forums about cleat setup and the pain/problems caused by incorrect setup. I have seen many threads about clipless moments. I have seen occasional threads about people wondering how to get their feet into toe clips but that is easy with a little practice. I have never seen any threads about people unable to set their flat pedals up correctly! I have also seen many threads about people with cold feet in the winter. Clipless shoes seem to have gaps in the soles. I can ride with hiking boots in winter and have never experienced cold feet.
> 
> Of course there are advantages to clipless pedals, the pros wouldn't use them otherwise. But to me, and I suspect most riders of average ability, we will never be able to extract any real benefit. Besides, the flat pedals fitted to most bikes as standard are usually horrible hard plastic things which offer little grip. I have never had a problem with my feet slipping off quality pedals. I do ride with toe clips on both my fixed gear bikes for a little extra security but I never feel the need to pull them tight. I know that donning a pair of clipless pedals will not allow me to sprint past Lance Armstrong.


 
The good thing is that they do make clipless with a lot of float for those who cannot setup correctly. Personally I ride with a fair amount of float just because I like my knees and I dont want to risk damaging them.

The biggest thing to stress to those using clipless is that if your going to invest £100-£300 in pedals and shoes... SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO USE THEM! When I got mine I rode the same 1 mile stretch for hours getting a feel for them, trying to extract power through the whole cycle, watching videos on foot position and trying to replicate how it works, climbing hills using only spinning techniques. Im still learning to pedal efficiently even now,
so the question asked by the OP was do they make a difference, undeniably yes.. if your using them correctly. But it takes 100's of miles work to get in a position where your actually making a difference to your cycling as you need to build new pulling muscles in your legs too that have probably never done any cycling work before, this alone takes months.. if not years.


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

Speedywheelsjeans said:


> The good thing is that they do make clipless with a lot of float for those who cannot setup correctly. Personally I ride with a fair amount of float just because I like my knees and I dont want to risk damaging them.
> 
> The biggest thing to stress to those using clipless is that if your going to invest £100-£300 in pedals and shoes... SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO USE THEM! When I got mine I rode the same 1 mile stretch for hours getting a feel for them, trying to extract power through the whole cycle, watching videos on foot position and trying to replicate how it works, climbing hills using only spinning techniques. Im still learning to pedal efficiently even now,
> so the question asked by the OP was do they make a difference, undeniably yes.. if your using them correctly. But it takes 100's of miles work to get in a position where your actually making a difference to your cycling as you need to build new pulling muscles in your legs too that have probably never done any cycling work before, this alone takes months.. if not years.


 
But this and your last post kind of proves my point...it takes far more effort than most will ever give to get the potential out of this equipment.

I have read so many of these threads on the net and I almost never see people of my sort of viewpoint claiming there are no benefits to be had. What we do claim is that the benefits aren't that clearcut for your average non-racing cyclist.

Yet I see ludicrous claims from the 'clipless are best' camp, things as crazy as it's impossible to ride a long way on flat pedals. But the general thrust is one of 'night and day' difference and that once on clipless you'll never go back. Both of these statements are patently untrue and statistically nonsense. They also support their viewpoint with all sort of dire warnings about using flat pedals, none of which have come true for me. My knees are fine, my feet stay where I put them, my shins are unscarred, I can get up hills, I enjoy my cycling, I don't get sore feet and I feel safe.

As I've posted before one thing I won't do again is ride in flip-flops, that didn't work out too well and I did feel unsafe


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## 400bhp (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> I'm impressed by the level of 'anecdata' on this thread, it has surpassed other clipless threads in short order. The one coming closest to accuracy is GrasB but his level of cycling, and those he references, is so far beyond most of us, and always will be, that comparisons don't mean much. If that's the sort of cyclist you are, or have ambitions to become, then you need all the kit. As usual Norm gives some realworld data and admits that it's not possible to refine the exact contribution from the pedals.
> 
> But then we have the real gems - I was particularly taken by the explanation of clipless shoes having stiffer soles, then road shoes stiffer again but, but best of all, road specific pedals having a larger platform. Hmmm, for pedal efficiency you need a larger platform that is a rigid as possible...now what does that bring to mind???
> 
> ...


 
The voice of sense.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> But this and your last post kind of proves my point...it takes far more effort than most will ever give to get the potential out of this equipment.
> 
> I have read so many of these threads on the net and I almost never see people of my sort of viewpoint claiming there are no benefits to be had. What we do claim is that the benefits aren't that clearcut for your average non-racing cyclist.
> 
> ...


 
Im quite a cycling fanatic, I ride hard rides regularly, race etc so for me I sing the praises of clipless, i genuinely feel I am getting added benefits from my clipless as opposed to flats.
But what you've said is pretty much on the ball, if your just a general commuter or ride for pleasure then why bother. Some people like to run them in those circumstances, and there's nothing wrong with that either, I use them on commutes too, but its force of habit... I have had shin bashes and feet slips with flats (mainly MTB though on wet and rough terrain).. but also clipless moments, plus ive had a cleat wear right out to the extent that when i got out of the saddle to sprint up a short hill my foot pulled clean out and I went scraping across the floor, so none are any safer or any more dangerous than the other for sure.

So ultimately it does come down to what your first said saying use whatever you want and feel comfortable with... But as to my original reply to you I was just highlighting that stiff soles do make a difference IF you learn to use the pedals properly, otherwise if your comfortable in trainers and flats who's to say your doing it wrong.


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

Speedywheelsjeans said:


> Im quite a cycling fanatic, I ride hard rides regularly, race etc so for me I sing the praises of clipless, i genuinely feel I am getting added benefits from my clipless as opposed to flats.
> But what you've said is pretty much on the ball, if your just a general commuter or ride for pleasure then why bother. Some people like to run them in those circumstances, and there's nothing wrong with that either, I use them on commutes too, but its force of habit... I have had shin bashes and feet slips with flats (mainly MTB though on wet and rough terrain).. but also clipless moments, plus ive had a cleat wear right out to the extent that when i got out of the saddle to sprint up a short hill my foot pulled clean out and I went scraping across the floor, so none are any safer or any more dangerous than the other for sure.
> 
> So ultimately it does come down to what your first said saying use whatever you want and feel comfortable with... But as to my original reply to you I was just highlighting that stiff soles do make a difference IF you learn to use the pedals properly, otherwise if your comfortable in trainers and flats who's to say your doing it wrong.


 
Which all makes perfect sense to me


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## Norm (27 Feb 2012)

GrasB said:


> The thing is would the likes of norm likely go out & get per-pedal plots of their power production?


I think we can probably knock that one on the head with a "No chuffing way", just in case anyone was wondering. 



MacB said:


> As I've posted before one thing I won't do again is ride in flip-flops, that didn't work out too well and I did feel unsafe


Now there's a dangling hook, fully baited with a wriggling worm, just waiting for me to come along and say "TELL ME MORE!!!"


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

Norm said:


> I think we can probably knock that one on the head with a "No chuffing way", just in case anyone was wondering.
> 
> 
> Now there's a dangling hook, fully baited with a wriggling worm, just waiting for me to come along and say "TELL ME MORE!!!"


 
It's really not that interesting Norm, I just popped to the corner shop and happened to have been slouching around in flip-flops at the time. I can vouch for the fact that a flip-flop will stick to a pinned pedal but your foot won't necessarily stay with the the two of them. Nothing dramatic just a half arsed attempt to relocate my foot and I managed to kick the flip-flop off the pedal and under a passing car, I also had a bit of a wobble at the same time.

Entirely foreseeable and entirely my fault and I felt an arse having to scamper on to the road to retrieve my flip-flop.


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## Norm (27 Feb 2012)

MacB said:


> It's really not that interesting Norm...


Oh, any opportunity to call you a plum has a degree of interest, Mr Mac.


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## MacB (27 Feb 2012)

Norm said:


> Oh, any opportunity to call you a plum has a degree of interest, Mr Mac.


 
duly noted and, for a change, I'm unable to argue


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## youngoldbloke (27 Feb 2012)

In my youth we used clips with straps AND shoeplates - only this offered the kind of pedaling efficiency and security that you get with SPD/SL or Look style pedals and cleats. It was definitely more difficult to get your foot out than with today's cleats, having to reach down to flick the quick release on the straps. Clipless works for me. Especially when 'honking', can't see how you could keep your feet on the pedals otherwise.


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## Hacienda71 (27 Feb 2012)

I prefer being attached because as mentioned by others slipping of the pedals isn't fun. I have cut my shins more than once slipping off flats in the past. The added efficiency derived from clipless is not huge though. I suppose it is like a lot of cycling kit, I don't think more expensive groupsets will make a massive difference to overall speed. They weigh a little less and cost a lot more, but any advantage however small will be grabbed by some in the pursuit of speed. The most important factor is the engine on the bike.


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## ianrauk (27 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1741575, member: 76"]Well, having read the whole thread, and taken on board all the data it seems that most of the clipless riders have toppled over at some point.

Which I think leads to the rather obvious conclusion that it is completely reckless to engage in cycling clipless without a helmet.[/quote]


indeed Maggot. We must all remember, Helmet's saves lives.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (27 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1741575, member: 76"]Well, having read the whole thread, and taken on board all the data it seems that most of the clipless riders have toppled over at some point.

Which I think leads to the rather obvious conclusion that it is completely reckless to engage in cycling clipless without a helmet.[/quote]

In my personal opinion it is completely reckless to ride a bike without a helmet. And before anyone jumps on my back about them 'not being all that protective' I plowed into the back of a mini bus that slammed its brakes on at around 25 MPH, I smashed my lid to pieces, cracks and dents all over. My head 'except for an excruciating headache' was fine. I guarantee if my skull took the whole impact it would have been a different story. If something has the potential to protect me from brain damage or death from head first impact with the floor then its certainly worth wearing, my fiance wont let me ride without it anymore. Makes you look the part aswell.

However, most clipless moments happen at low speeds where you no longer have bike control, but saying that too nothing stopping you from landing head first on a clipless moment. You'll find the more you use clipless the less moments you'll have, I have not had one for a very long time .... *touch wood*


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## GrasB (27 Feb 2012)

ianrauk said:


> We must all remember, Helmet's saves lives give you concussions.


^^ corrected to be consistent with my experience of wearing & not wearing helmets having offs.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (27 Feb 2012)

GrasB said:


> ^^ corrected to be consistent with my experience of wearing & not wearing helmets having offs.


 
haha.. I like that!


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## Herbie (27 Feb 2012)

oldfatfool said:


> The biggest advantage is for comically falling over outside your own front gate


 
Been there done that too and in front of 6 people...caused much amusement for them and a red face for me


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## BrumJim (27 Feb 2012)

ianrauk said:


> indeed Maggot. We must all remember, Helmet's saves lives.


 
That's going to cause a lot of controversy.



Misusing an apostrophe like that.


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## dellzeqq (27 Feb 2012)

Blowfish said:


> Could the advantage be down to me having clip in shoes/pedals and him not?


yes


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## Hip Priest (27 Feb 2012)

I'm the man to ask. I went out for 35 miles this morning with toe clips (sans straps). It was muddy and wet in the lanes and my feet were slipping about on the pedals. Then when I got home my SPD-SL pedals and shoes had arrived so I fitted them and went for a ride round the block and noticed I was putting out an extra 255 kilohertz of torques per minute.

It's actually much easier to unclip than I imagined.


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## Speedywheelsjeans (27 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1741806, member: 76"]Tee hee hee, mentioning helmets works every time doesn't it?  Is it the touchiest subject in cycling?[/quote]

I seem to have suffered a relapse there! ... Tried to control myself from submitting a reply... but a black mist descended and it just happened.


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## ianrauk (27 Feb 2012)

[QUOTE 1741806, member: 76"]Tee hee hee, mentioning helmets works every time doesn't it?  Is it the touchiest subject in cycling?[/quote]


I know... it was very naughty of me... I should know better..


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## rollinstok (27 Feb 2012)

I have the best of both with those Shimano one sided clipless. On casual rides I wear my jodhpurs, brogues and a cardigan thrown over my shoulders. When I,m all serious I adopt lycra, a steely grin, 1000 yard stare, spd shoes, and ignore any other cyclist who passes by ( unless they are as serious as me )


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## briantrumpet (27 Feb 2012)

ianrauk said:


> We must all remember, Helmet's saves lives.


I think I've traced the source of this belief.

On 16 Feb 2007, a poster called 'aiyo' posted this question*:


> I know there has been a number of inquiries regarding using a value from a Mail Merge record to dynamically name an output file. My objective is to create 'x' number of documents using the same template, but save each on using a distinct filename from a value within each record. I've come close by referencing the ActiveDocument.MailMerge.DataSource.DataFields(i).Value This works successfully for the first record. However, subsequent records retain the value from the first record, essentially overwritting the original file. Any ideas?


Someone called Helmut Weber responded:


> Hi, maybe an additional .DataSource.ActiveRecord = i will help.


And, response, aiya wrote:


> Helmut, you are a life saver!


 
And from there, it is but a small step, and a case of casual pronunciation and dodgy grammar, to the conclusion that "helmets save lives".

So there you are. A mystery solved. Entire books and beliefs have been known to have been derived from such minor misunderstandings.

*source


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## KateK (28 Feb 2012)

briantrumpet said:


> I think I've traced the source of this belief.
> 
> On 16 Feb 2007, a poster called 'aiyo' posted this question*:
> 
> ...


 I like my helmet, I wear it all the time. I think it makes me look cerebral and trendy.


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## KateK (28 Feb 2012)

In fact I even wear it when I'm not cycling,
Actually that's only true when i forget to take it off... that's what the medication does to you.
Oh Slartibartfast...I just remembered I'm not supposed to mention the H word. Oh, just think of cake or something much more controversial till you forget I said anything...


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## BigSteev (28 Feb 2012)

rollinstok said:


> I have the best of both with those Shimano one sided clipless.


 
No, you have a pedal that is a "jack of all trades, master of none". Neither side could even be close to being described as being "the best".


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