# A wheel-sucker rant! (Thanet RC take note!)



## Chrisz (28 Oct 2013)

I am usually quite tollerant of people who want to "grab a lift" off my wheel when I'm out and about (flattered that they'd bother!) but I/we had a serious wheel-sucker incident this weekend that has left me feeling somewhat pissed-off!

We were riding in a small group on Sunday, completing the KCA 100 reliability trial (Ashford, Kent) - at around the 70m mark a group of three (Thanet RC riders) hooked on to the back of us for a lift - no problems - happy to work together.

However, after a while (10m) it became quite apparent that they had no intention of taking a turn at the front, even when we eased off the pace a little they remained steadfastly at the back.

OK, thought I, perhaps they aren't aware of the usual ettiquette, so I dropped back and cordially invited them to have a go up front for a while - nothing happened 

10m from the finish I again invited them up to do a bit of work, - another refusal 

Eventually I started to get the hump and said outright to one of the riders "Are you guys gonna do some work or what? You've been passengers for the last 25 miles!" - absolute refusal was the reply 

We had a muttering between our group (Ashford Wheelers) and decided to ignore them, then, 500 meters from the finish the cheeky buggers decided to sprint past - they then completely blanked us at the finish control.

Normally this would not have bothered me - we would simply have pulled over and ushered them past - but we were getting close to our time limit and needed to push on.

Next time I will be taking some more assertive action (someone may have a close encounter whith a hedge!!!)

Thanet RC - you boys know who you are!!!


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## cd365 (28 Oct 2013)

What can you realistically do in this situation?


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## glasgowcyclist (28 Oct 2013)

Brake and drop in behind them?

GC


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## DiddlyDodds (28 Oct 2013)

Rise above them , people like that are just parasites and leeches, you know you did the right thing and they are work shy toads..

So rise above them , or if that does not satisfy then a stick through the spokes when out next time will suffice.


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## Booyaa (28 Oct 2013)

Was the refusal a verbal one or did they just not speak to you and not go to the front? How incredibly rude either way.

In another world I would like to just ride of the front away from them but in reality I would probably be dying after 70 miles so there is no chance that would happen. Whatever the deal it is very rude.


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## Tommy2 (28 Oct 2013)

Does it hinder your performance having someone drafting off you?


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## dellzeqq (28 Oct 2013)

holy cow! That's just crass! Will the Thanet crew offer an explanation?


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## ianrauk (28 Oct 2013)

Why do something like that? Pig ignorance and very anti social. 
Drop a line to the club secretary.


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## Sittingduck (28 Oct 2013)

Tommy2 said:


> Does it hinder your performance having someone drafting off you?


 
I have read that, infact it may (marginally) improve it. But that's really not the point is it. A question of manners...
Sadly some folk are lacking.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (28 Oct 2013)

It happens at events,you aren't unique. On the open road/training rides is a different matter.

What was the issue again?


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## Tommy2 (28 Oct 2013)

I wasn't having a pop, it was a genuine question (just to clarify).
I had seen something that suggested it helps but that was wind tunnel testing so not necessarily the same as real life conditions.


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## Chrisz (28 Oct 2013)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Brake and drop in behind them?
> 
> GC


We would have done that but we were pressed for time and couldn't really afford to stop! We did slow down to around 10mph and they remained where they were


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## Chrisz (28 Oct 2013)

Booyaa said:


> Was the refusal a verbal one or did they just not speak to you and not go to the front? How incredibly rude either way.



Both - no doubt that they were invited, requested and outright told to help out/do some work/take the front for a little while


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## Chrisz (28 Oct 2013)

Tommy2 said:


> Does it hinder your performance having someone drafting off you?



Not at all mate - it's just generally seen as rude/ignorant! Also, we were working as a team - why should they benefit from our hard work without even offering to contribute?


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## fossyant (28 Oct 2013)

Down right rude.


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## Hill Wimp (28 Oct 2013)

Chrisz said:


> Not at all mate - it's just generally seen as rude/ignorant! Also, we were working as a* team* - why should they benefit from our hard work without even offering to contribute?



The word Team always confuses people that have never been part of one.


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## Bryony (28 Oct 2013)

Thanet RC is my local club was thinking if joining but this has out me off!!


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## ColinJ (28 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> The word Team always confuses people that have never been part of one.


Well, imagine you are having a party and some strangers walk in and start drinking your wine. They don't say hello to you or the other guests, and don't answer when you ask who they are. You ask them if they brought some booze with them, and they turn their backs on you and refuse to talk to you. How would you feel!


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## Hill Wimp (28 Oct 2013)

The OP said he was working as part of a team which i totally support being a pretty big team player myself, however the wheel suckers have obviously never been part of a team which as i say obviously confused the selfish so and so's.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (28 Oct 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> The OP said he was working as part of a team which i totally support being a pretty big team player myself, however the wheel suckers have obviously never been part of a team which as i say obviously confused the selfish so and so's.


There was a car behind me earlier, no matter what I did, the driver refused to pass me and "share the work". We're sharing a public place so we're a team right?


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## steve52 (28 Oct 2013)

well either it desends to fisticuffs, or treat then as an oppsesing team as you would have to in a team race,make a game of it and breakthem.its good fun and you soon find out who is the stronger riders,


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## Tommy2 (28 Oct 2013)

Bryony said:


> Thanet RC is my local club was thinking if joining but this has out me off!!


Maybe you should join and try to teach them some manners.


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## uclown2002 (28 Oct 2013)

If I was that bothered I'd pull over for a few seconds and let them pass. I hear you about time limit but a few seconds shouldn't hurt.


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## Dusty Bin (28 Oct 2013)

I can't see the issue. Bit rude, maybe, but I don't think they're breaking any laws. I think writing to the club is a bit extreme. Move on. If it happens again, pick the pace up and drop them.


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## Cuchilo (28 Oct 2013)

Maybe they didn't want to do the pace you where doing or thought they couldn't keep up the pace to overtake ? I draft and get drafted lots of times but there is no point in me overtaking someone that's on a TT as I will just get in the way and wont be able to keep the pace once im in front .


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## Crankarm (28 Oct 2013)

Next time drop a series of long loud smelly farts if that doesn't work then snot. Mind you they were probably thinking the likelihood was very high that if they did pass you that you would draft them for 30 miles. Or why didn't you just ride your team away from them, break them.


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## Trickedem (28 Oct 2013)

Chrisz said:


> I am usually quite tollerant of people who want to "grab a lift" off my wheel when I'm out and about (flattered that they'd bother!) but I/we had a serious wheel-sucker incident this weekend that has left me feeling somewhat ****ed-off!
> !!!


Chrisz I was on the same ride. I got left behind by my group when I got a puncture and never managed to find another group slow enough for me to keep up with!! Great ride, but the headwind was probably the worst I've every ridden into.


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## Globalti (29 Oct 2013)

Maybe the Thanet riders were simply ignorant?


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## screenman (29 Oct 2013)

If they had helped then your time would have been achieved by cheating, maybe they were on the limit riding on your wheel and could not come through. Think of it as some macho thing and enjoy the boost to your ego, take it that you personally ground them down.

Not forgetting that a reliability is not a race, do not want them governed or banned do we. Never ceases to amaze me though how many would be pretend racers treat both sportives and reliabilities as races, why not do a proper one. Not saying that the OP fits this bracket.


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## Leodis (29 Oct 2013)

I would have pulled back and politely told them to either do some work or fark off. Simples.

Sound like a bunch of nobbers and the club much practice this a lot.


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## Chrisz (29 Oct 2013)

I totally agree that it's not a race but a test of a team's (a collection of individuals working together to achieve a pre-determined goal or outcome *T.M.H.N.E.T.!*) ability to complete a set distance within a specified time bracket, with points being awarded for the number of club riders/teams able to achieve this goal.

So, not a race but there is still a competitive element involved.

The group who leeched on to us WERE made aware (several times) that we did not appreciate dragging them around without them taking a turn - there was no symbiotic relationship - purely parasitical. Had they had the manners to ask if they could latch on because they were knackered it would have been considered (bearing in mind the competitive element!). No such request was made, in fact a point-blank refusal to get on the front for a while was made.

If I am out on my own or even out on a club run I would have no issue with someone cadging a lift but this is, IMHO, different.

Final point - I could not have slmply lifted the pace to drop them as at least one of our guys was on his chin-strap anyway and would have risked being dropped as well (and therefore not making the time limit and so not geting the points for the club!).


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## totallyfixed (29 Oct 2013)

I would probably have had a quiet word with my mates and at a predetermined place or signal, do two quick u-turns and come in behind them.


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## Crankarm (29 Oct 2013)

totallyfixed said:


> I would probably have had a quiet word with my mates and at a predetermined place or signal, do two quick u-turns and come in behind them.



And caused a crash .........


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## Crankarm (29 Oct 2013)

Chrisz said:


> I totally agree that it's not a race but a test of a team's (a collection of individuals working together to achieve a pre-determined goal or outcome *T.M.H.N.E.T.!*) ability to complete a set distance within a specified time bracket, with points being awarded for the number of club riders/teams able to achieve this goal.
> 
> So, not a race but there is still a competitive element involved.
> 
> ...



Maybe you should have dropped your team mate who was holding you back? This is what a team would have done if racing. He could have hung onto the back of the Thanet riders when you dropped them. SImples.


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## Hill Wimp (29 Oct 2013)

Crankarm said:


> Maybe you should have dropped your team mate who was holding you back? This is what a team would have done if racing. He could have hung onto the back of the Thanet riders when you dropped them. SImples.



Get you point if the team were racing but OP says they weren't. I was always taught andalways practice with my team ( not cycling but profession) that no one gets left behind.


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## gaz (29 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I can't see the issue. Bit rude, maybe, but I don't think they're breaking any laws. I think writing to the club is a bit extreme. Move on. If it happens again, pick the pace up and drop them.


Pick up the pace to drop some other riders on a 100 mile ride whilst you are 70 miles in. Sure thing.

Writing to the club is not extreme, I'm sure the security will appreciate being contacted about such matters as it makes the club look bad.


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## Dusty Bin (29 Oct 2013)

gaz said:


> Pick up the pace to drop some other riders on a 100 mile ride whilst you are 70 miles in. Sure thing.



Perfectly possible if you've got the legs. Difficult if you haven't, obviously.


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## mcshroom (29 Oct 2013)

Considering the OP was worrying about a cut-off time, I'd suggest they probably didn't have the legs.


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## gaz (29 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Perfectly possible if you've got the legs. Difficult if you haven't, obviously.


When you're riding in a group, you must go as fast as the slowest, otherwise you will leave them behind. The option to speed up may not have been available even if most of them had the legs.


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## subaqua (29 Oct 2013)

they could obviously see the laydees knickers through your lycra . it does say in your sig once a bootie always a bootie 

bad form whatever


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## HLaB (29 Oct 2013)

If somebody admits they don't have the strength to come through I don't mind too much (its a pretty insignificant saving but at the front you save circa 0.5% with somebody on your wheel) but your drafters sound arrogant pr1cks. I must admit though a few times when I've had uninvited drafters Ive upped the pace


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## Leodis (29 Oct 2013)

I draft anyone on the commute, I pretend to be puffin and huffin and when we get to a hill... I get off and push.


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## lukasran (29 Oct 2013)

wheres the rest of the story? the bit with the serious wheel sucker incident.


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## Hip Priest (29 Oct 2013)

Well it was a reliability trial, so they were relying on you to drag 'em round.


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## ColinW (29 Oct 2013)

I was riding with Chris on Sunday. I didn't really care that they were sat on our tail for 30 miles, letting us do all the work, until that last 1/2 mile to the final time check when they put in a little spurt of effort to ride past on a little hill. That, I thought was so cheap


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## Mark D (30 Oct 2013)

Sounds like bad form from the Thanet guys, shame you didn't drop them. Apparently it's neck and neck between Thanet and San Fairy Ann as to which club wins the Reliability Trial this year (results to be announced on 3 November...). Though, of course, as a member of San Fairy Ann myself (and second-claim Ashford Wheeler), perhaps I am a bit biased...


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## Chrisz (30 Oct 2013)

Mark D said:


> Sounds like bad form from the Thanet guys, shame you didn't drop them. Apparently it's neck and neck between Thanet and San Fairy Ann as to which club wins the Reliability Trial this year (results to be announced on 3 November...). Though, of course, as a member of San Fairy Ann myself (and second-claim Ashford Wheeler), perhaps I am a bit biased...



Perhaps Thanet RC should "share" the win if they come out on top LOL


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## Booyaa (30 Oct 2013)

ColinW said:


> I was riding with Chris on Sunday. I didn't really care that they were sat on our tail for 30 miles, letting us do all the work, until that last 1/2 mile to the final time check when they put in a little spurt of effort to ride past on a little hill. That, I thought was so cheap


That's the bit I found most out of order. Very cheeky of them.


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## boydj (30 Oct 2013)

I can understand the annoyance. On the Liverpool-Chester-Liverpool a couple of years ago we had a guy sit in on a small group heading back to Liverpool - never took a turn at the front in well over 10 miles. As we came through Birkenhead to the tunnel, he jumped a red light to get away from the group. The surge of adrenaline did get me up the long drag in the tunnel in double-quick time as I tried to chase him down. Very cheeky of him.


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## 400bhp (30 Oct 2013)

Sounds like a normal club run at a certain club near me. Half of the buggers not taking turns at the front.


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## Hacienda71 (30 Oct 2013)

400bhp said:


> Sounds like a normal club run at a certain club near me. Half of the buggers not taking turns at the front.


One of the fekkers draughted me all the way from Tatton to Ashley 6 inches off my rear wheel. I wasn't even riding with the turd.


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## 7SecondBetty (4 Nov 2013)

Chrisz said:


> I am usually quite tollerant of people who want to "grab a lift" off my wheel when I'm out and about (flattered that they'd bother!) but I/we had a serious wheel-sucker incident this weekend that has left me feeling somewhat ****ed-off!
> 
> We were riding in a small group on Sunday, completing the KCA 100 reliability trial (Ashford, Kent) - at around the 70m mark a group of three (Thanet RC riders) hooked on to the back of us for a lift - no problems - happy to work together.
> 
> ...




Hi Chrisz,

I was one of the wheelsuckers, firstly apologies I did talk to a couple of your guys but I had some nasty stomach cramps going on so was a bit quiet and just hanging on at points. The main reason we were at the back was our navigators Garmin went tits up at about 80 miles so we didn't really know where we were going. Sorry if this didn't get communicated, I personally didn't hear you ask us to take a turn, although I usually would have done anyway. As for going past at the end, I didn't but I think the other 2 thought we were running out of time and had set off before you not as it turns out 5 mins after. I had spent the whole time trying to convince them it wasn't a race... although with the wind and the punctures it was a bit close to the cut off in the end. I think we might owe you a draft and a coffee on the next one. Matt


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## Mark D (5 Nov 2013)

For the record, I have heard that Thanet won the Reliability Trial, 18pts ahead of San Fairy Ann, who came second. For the purposes of this event, San Fairy Ann's racing team, i.e. Abellio-SFA, counted as a separate team and not part of San Fairy Ann.


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## Kent2013 (5 Nov 2013)

I was one of the three wheelsuckers as described in the original post , or at least i think it was directed at us.(some of the details differ to what i can remember from the day) 
As a group of three riders we had ridden at least 70miles taking it in turn to be at the front , therefore we had each spent a considerable amount of time at the front.
Earlier in the event we supported a group of riders who were struggling with the headwinds, we moved to the front when they were struggling (they were completing a shorter distance) and remained at the front until the group split. 
I personally was not aware that any requests had been made to go to the front and would have moved to the front if it had been requested. Especially as we were now in the stage of the event where we were benefiting from a strong tail wind.
As mentioned by7secondbetty we had chosen to sit in with this group as my Garmin had failed. If it was working we would have probably ridden past this group and finished earlier.
It was not a race , so i am struggling to understand why people would be so concerned about other riders tagging on to the group. We didn't tag along with any thoughts of causing a problem / frustration to those riders.
I know what motivates me to ride to work during the week and participate in group rides at weekends. Other than dangerous riding by another rider , i don't know why anybody should become so concerned about another riders behaviour. To become so upset and not deal with it on the day is a concern. When you get on your bike , enjoy the moment. Take in the fresh air and enjoy the scenery and unwind. Life is too short to become wound up by silly events. 
Apologies to those in the group that took any offence from our actions on the day. If we meet again on another ride I will be happy to cycle at the front for as long as you would like me to stay at the front (its good resistance training)


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## 400bhp (5 Nov 2013)

Your post doesn't tie up with the OP's version.


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## Chrisz (6 Nov 2013)

Kent2013 said:


> As mentioned by7secondbetty we had chosen to sit in with this group as my Garmin had failed. If it was working we would have probably ridden past this group and finished earlier.
> It was not a race , so i am struggling to understand why people would be so concerned about other riders tagging on to the group. We didn't tag along with any thoughts of causing a problem / frustration to those riders.



You seem to have missed the points mate - (a) it was plain rude - you guys latched on, without even the courtesy of asking, (b) despite several "invites" to take a turn on the front you guys refused - particularly the guy in the BMC jersey who point-blank refused when asked, (c) it was a competitive event - in efffect we helped your club to win! (d) after having sat in for the last 20-odd miles you guys then decided to sprint past us in the last 500m - making no significant difference to your time - again plain rude!

On a club run, social ride, commute etc. it's a completely different matter - had you approached us and asked if you could tag along we would have been more than happy to help out!


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## Chrisz (6 Nov 2013)

7SecondBetty said:


> Hi Chrisz,
> 
> I was one of the wheelsuckers, firstly apologies I did talk to a couple of your guys but I had some nasty stomach cramps going on so was a bit quiet and just hanging on at points. The main reason we were at the back was our navigators Garmin went tits up at about 80 miles so we didn't really know where we were going. Sorry if this didn't get communicated, I personally didn't hear you ask us to take a turn, although I usually would have done anyway. As for going past at the end, I didn't but I think the other 2 thought we were running out of time and had set off before you not as it turns out 5 mins after. I had spent the whole time trying to convince them it wasn't a race... although with the wind and the punctures it was a bit close to the cut off in the end. I think we might owe you a draft and a coffee on the next one. Matt



Cheers Matt, much appreciated. For future reference a little more communication would be a good thing


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## Buzzinonbikes (6 Nov 2013)

It's all falling apart. The charade is up. The "wheel suckers" have turned up to offer their side of events and it sounds fairly harmless.


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## Chrisz (6 Nov 2013)

Buzzinonbikes said:


> It's all falling apart. The charade is up. The "wheel suckers" have turned up to offer their side of events and it sounds fairly harmless.


Harmless but still feckin rude!


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## Crankarm (6 Nov 2013)




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## Dave Davenport (6 Nov 2013)

Not wanting to get in the way of a good row; but how do your reliability trials work re times & 'winners'? We stopped publishing finishing times for ours a few years ago due to insurance issues if they could be perceived as 'races' in any way (as did most sportives I think), we now just have gold, silver, bronze time bands and lots of references to it NOT being a race on the signing on sheets and web site.


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## VamP (6 Nov 2013)

Four pages of moaning about getting beaten by sportsmanship in a non-race? Awesome!


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## Mark D (6 Nov 2013)

Dave Davenport said:


> Not wanting to get in the way of a good row; but how do your reliability trials work re times & 'winners'? We stopped publishing finishing times for ours a few years ago due to insurance issues if they could be perceived as 'races' in any way (as did most sportives I think), we now just have gold, silver, bronze time bands and lots of references to it NOT being a race on the signing on sheets and web site.


 
You have to finish your chosen distance (50km, 100km or 100miles) within a prescribed time, to earn either 1pt, 2pts or 4pts for your club respectively. As far as I know, individual rider times are not published, only the points totals of the various clubs.


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## Dave Davenport (6 Nov 2013)

Mark D said:


> You have to finish your chosen distance (50km, 100km or 100miles) within a prescribed time, to earn either 1pt, 2pts or 4pts for your club respectively. As far as I know, individual rider times are not published, only the points totals of the various clubs.



I see, cheers.


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## Kent2013 (6 Nov 2013)

Chrisz said:


> You seem to have missed the points mate - (a) it was plain rude - you guys latched on, without even the courtesy of asking, (b) despite several "invites" to take a turn on the front you guys refused - particularly the guy in the BMC jersey who point-blank refused when asked, (c) it was a competitive event - in efffect we helped your club to win! (d) after having sat in for the last 20-odd miles you guys then decided to sprint past us in the last 500m - making no significant difference to your time - again plain rude!
> 
> On a club run, social ride, commute etc. it's a completely different matter - had you approached us and asked if you could tag along we would have been more than happy to help out!




I must have been on a different ride. I was taking part in the reliability trial , cycling for Thanet , cyling 100 miles on Sunday.
I was also wearing a BMC top.
Now we have a problem , It appears to me that i am the person been talked about in the post , however , the details are wrong. 
Do people use this forum to vent thinking that nobody will reply or challenge the accuracy of the statements.
Nobody said a word to me about cycling at the front , other than in the last section when i cycled past on an small uphill section. At that point a comment was thrown in my directions. 
From your comments above , that was in the last 500m. (i think it was more.........however , lets not ruin the story with facts)
So one comment in the last 500m and i am been crticised for not taking a slot at the front. I cycled past you and stayed in front for some time (approx 500m) so at least it can be said i took the final slot at cycling at the front.
Do me a favour , if you see me on the road , make it clear that you don't want me to cycle with your group and i will happily find an alternative route or if it is an organised event , i will cycle past you.


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## Chrisz (6 Nov 2013)

Kent2013 said:


> I was also wearing a BMC top.
> N
> Do me a favour , if you see me on the road , make it clear that you don't want me to cycle with your group and i will happily find an alternative route or if it is an organised event , i will cycle past you.



Not a problem - I'll be more than happy with that - I was the guy in the Royal Marines kit who didn't drop back and ask you three guys to take a turn! You are obvioulsy the guy who didn't point blank refuse and didn't mutter something about wind etc.??

Since the two other members of Thanet RC have already apologised and explained themselves you must be a different BMC wearing rider who didn't drop in and hang off the back for 20 miles eh?


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## 400bhp (6 Nov 2013)




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## Hip Priest (6 Nov 2013)

This is a glorious thread.

May it run and run!


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## Cuchilo (6 Nov 2013)

and if you want a better reason for not joining a club then read this thread .


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## screenman (7 Nov 2013)

Cuchilo said:


> and if you want a better reason for not joining a club then read this thread .



That is absolute rubbish, come please come up with your reasoning behind you statement.


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## screenman (7 Nov 2013)

I see the OP as a bit of a look how good we were going when another club could not do their bit on the front, take it as a ego boost.


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## Hip Priest (7 Nov 2013)

Cuchilo said:


> and if you want a better reason for not joining a club then read this thread .



And if you want a better reason for joining a club, go on a sportive.


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## Chrisz (7 Nov 2013)

screenman said:


> I see the OP as a bit of a look how good we were going when another club could not do their bit on the front, take it as a ego boost.



LOL - far from it mate - as I have already pointed out, a couple of our guys were already on their chinstrap (I wasn't far off myself)! Perhaps you should re-read the first page of this thread and see if you can get the actual point I was trying to make?


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## Aperitif (7 Nov 2013)

Nice thread, Chris. I think the Royal Marines and the Bicycle Manufacturing Company should pm each other, get out for an easy 'couple of hours' and hunker down in a pub where the bikes are safe, exchange a bit of history, let it rest and write it up as the supreme happy ending to an interesting story.
And you know what they say on here? "Photos, or it didn't happen!" 
Good luck to everyone.


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## Origamist (7 Nov 2013)

Hip Priest said:


> And if you want a better reason for joining a club, go on a sportive.


 
And if you want an even better reason for joining a club, commute along London's Cycle Superhighway 7 in the summer.


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## Pale Rider (7 Nov 2013)

We now have five or six eye-witness accounts, all of which appear credible - in isolation.

But they are contradictory, so cannot all be true.

It illustrates the problem a jury has when trying to judge a cycling crash.


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## Arjimlad (7 Nov 2013)

Aperitif said:


> Nice thread, Chris. I think the Royal Marines and the Bicycle Manufacturing Company should pm each other, get out for an easy 'couple of hours' and hunker down in a pub where the bikes are safe, exchange a bit of history, let it rest and write it up as the supreme happy ending to an interesting story.
> And you know what they say on here? "Photos, or it didn't happen!"
> Good luck to everyone.


 
Perhaps even a Rendezvous with Janet, if they know their Blockheads ? Anyway, happy cycling to all!


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## 400bhp (7 Nov 2013)

Aperitif said:


> Nice thread, Chris. I think the Royal Marines and the Bicycle Manufacturing Company should pm each other, get out for an easy 'couple of hours' and hunker down in a pub where the bikes are safe, exchange a bit of history, let it rest and write it up as the supreme happy ending to an interesting story.
> And you know what they say on here? "Photos, or it didn't happen!"
> Good luck to everyone.




MAN LOVE :00:


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