# Carbon repair: what would you do..?



## Monsieur Remings (13 Aug 2014)

Well, after a week or so of pondering I took my Ribble to the LBS with suspected fractures on either side of the bottom chainstay where the stay meets the dropout. The photos below show these fractures on either side in exactly the same place. The response wasn't good with both mechanics - whom I trust implicitly - not being able to say that it wasn't a crack. So I ride home and get onto Ribble who were useless, telling me that my warranty was out; I bought the bike in 2011 and there is a poxy 2 year warranty on the bike/frame.

So, I look at the repair option and both Surrey Carbon Bike Repair and Carbon Bike Solutions (CBS) of Derbyshire seem pretty positive. The Derbyshire chap I spoke to went as far as to say it may only be a paint crack; the Surrey chap, who was very quick to get back via email wrote, and I quote 'The lug (carbon or alloy) is de-bonding from the seat stay. It is not bad at the moment but in time this additional movement will start to damage the chain stay and so on.'

So, first question, has anybody had this issue before in this part of the bike and what was the outcome.I don't think either of the guys are wrong - far from it - but I also know there's a lot of knowledge and experience here and wondered what cyclechatters think..?

If I go through the Surrey chap this is the situation, again I quote from email: 'If we don't see a problem the inspection is £50. If we see a need to restore the stay, and if it is possible then the total fee will be in the region of £150 from experience.' This was after seeing the photos.

So, the most it will cost if either does need work beyond an inspection is around £150 but this is a 3 year old frame - I know that's not old...but worse case scenario and I have to dish that out, is it worth it? In other words what would you do? You could buy a second hand frame for around £250, some new for a bit more. Whilst it seems a waste, the problem really is that in order to inspect the carbon fibre I'm already dishing out money which would seem pointless if I don't go the whole hog...

I know ultimately it's my decision but what would you guys do? The pictures are below.


----------



## TissoT (13 Aug 2014)

I would use the bike/frame on a home turbo trainer only ... And buy a new frame/bike


----------



## MikeW-71 (13 Aug 2014)

Ask yourself the question: "How long should a bicycle frame last?".

Bear in mind that there are loads and loads of people on here with bikes more than 10 years old whose frames have not fallen to bits. 3 years is not acceptable. If the dropout is debonding, that's a manufacturing fault and the frame is not of satisfactory quality.

Keep the email that the Surrey chap sent you and write to Ribble enclosing a printout of that email and ask them what they intend to do about it. Use the term Not Of Satisfactory Quality. If they still don't want to know you can take them to court for either a replacement frame or the cost of repair.

It may be worth sending it for inspection and ask for a written report on the damage and what is causing it. That can be sent to Ribble too.


----------



## Hacienda71 (13 Aug 2014)

I can't comment on your particular crack but you can get cracks that are in the filler around joints in a carbon frame. I have some on my frame that appeared early on, I marked them to monitor if they changed and 10000 miles later no change. 
All that said for peace of mind get it professionally checked. The guy in Derbyshire has a good rep. Friends know him and recommend him.


----------



## Smokin Joe (13 Aug 2014)

The fact that the crack does not join (It seems to be starting to spiral) would make me think it was more likely to be paint than the material itself. Why don't you remove the paint round the area and see what's underneath? White is an easy colour to touch in again.


----------



## Monsieur Remings (13 Aug 2014)

Some great replies already, thanks folks.

MIke, I hear what you're saying but the warranty is two years and in court I'd be asked why I bought a frame that only had a 2 year warranty. I think legally they're covered and whilst I respect your stance, it's difficult until I know what it is. And Smokin Joe may be right, it may be just paint.

Joe, what would I be looking for? Presumably damage to the weave itself?

Hacienda, thanks for the feedback on CBS, I shall bear that in mind when it comes to making a decision.


----------



## Mr Celine (13 Aug 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> ... what would you guys do? The pictures are below.



I'd focus on the frame rather than the doormat.


----------



## User33236 (13 Aug 2014)

What Mike is saying is that you would expect a bike to last a reasonable length of time in a reasonable condition. In the case of a bike you would expect this to be a pretty reasonable number of years. If yours has not you have recourse via the sale of goods act.


----------



## fossyant (13 Aug 2014)

That's just paint surface crack ! SIMPLE It's not like a fracture. Paint is brittle, and with an alloy/carbon bond you may get cracks like this.

Seen it before... a member here had this on a Spesh Roubaix and it's never got worse.

With steel you will get corrosion of the frame/paint , with alloy you will get paint bubbling. Alloy surface stuff looks a damn sight worse than a bit of paint crack. or rust...


----------



## MikeW-71 (13 Aug 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> MIke, I hear what you're saying but the warranty is two years and in court *I'd be asked why I bought a frame that only had a 2 year warranty*. I think legally they're covered and whilst I respect your stance, it's difficult until I know what it is. And Smokin Joe may be right, it may be just paint.


No you wouldn't. You'd only need an expert report stating that it isn't damage that you have caused and it's a defect of manufacture. I'd be expecting a bike frame to last a minimum of 10 years, particularly a carbon frame that doesn't rust or fatigue. If it is a defective frame, Ribble should be paying to get it sorted regardless what the warranty length is.

If the frame was 6 years old, then you no longer have that route, and you would just have to pay for repair or replace it.

If I understand the process correctly, the dropouts are an aluminium piece that is glued into the ends of the seatstays and chainstays. Sometimes there will be a filler applied to smooth the join, then it is painted. The filler may have cracked (not structural, frame is OK) or it may just be a paint crack (also OK), or the glue has let go (not something that should happen, but it's serious).


----------



## Cuchilo (13 Aug 2014)

Ive just had the same problem with a machine for work . I paid for it to be fixed once and its showing signs of breaking again . I took it back to the shop and told them I can get a new machine made to my spec for what has been paid out already . The cost of another repair makes it a machine I need to get rid of as its costing me money .
I would rather cut my losses than throw good money at a bad thing .
I'm not saying your bike is bad but I would be asking Ribble if they could tell me what the cracks are .


----------



## Monsieur Remings (13 Aug 2014)

Thanks again people. 

Fossyant, I hope you're right but both sides?

User33236, thanks, I hear what Mike is saying and if this is bad news (which I'll only know post-inspection) I will take his and your advice. And Mike, thanks again and once decided on which carbon fibre repair place to use - I have now sent pictures to a 3rd company - I will ask them straight whether this is down to a defective frame; they'd have seen this kind of thing before and will probably know more than me about the likely result of any legal action or what chance I stand etc. Your input is much appreciated.

And fossyant, or anyone, I've heard that if you use a pen to go over the existing crack that you can check whether it gets any worse. BUT, surely if it was only a paint crack, then a paint crack could also get worse, or no?


----------



## S.Giles (13 Aug 2014)

Do you know a friendly dentist or vet who could x-ray it for you? I'm not sure what you would see, but if they do it for a reasonable cost, nothing much would be lost. At _very least_, it would be interesting! If it turns out to be a surface paint crack, just ignore it.


----------



## 400bhp (13 Aug 2014)

MikeW-71 said:


> Ask yourself the question: "How long should a bicycle frame last?".
> 
> Bear in mind that there are loads and loads of people on here with bikes more than 10 years old whose frames have not fallen to bits. 3 years is not acceptable. If the dropout is debonding, that's a manufacturing fault and the frame is not of satisfactory quality.
> 
> ...



You could but don't expect to get far.


----------



## cd365 (14 Aug 2014)

Tweet or Facebook the pictures to Ribble, companies tend to react better if lots of people can see how they handle this sort of issue.


----------



## Garethgas (14 Aug 2014)

400bhp said:


> You could but don't expect to get far.



I would...
"There is a close connection between the requirements of merchantable quality and fitness for purpose and the requirement that goods must also be capable of enduring for a reasonable period and must be free from any propensity to deteriorate seriously or break down. To the judge's mind, this means that goods must not unduly break down during their normal life-span and that if they do, the breakdown is often a clear symptom of their inappropriate quality."

The merchantable quality of a product is related to it's cost, the manufacturer, and 'reasonable' time.
As has been shown here, everybody thinks (quite reasonably) that a carbon bike should last longer than 3 years.
I expect a Judge would agree.


----------



## Globalti (14 Aug 2014)

Stop worrying; they are classic witness cracks that form where the flexy carbon chainstay meets the inflexible alloy lug. The paint is thick, brittle and very hard so it cracks. Carry on riding - I carried on riding my 2006 Roubaix for over 5000 miles with these witness cracks and then sold it with a clear description and as far as I know the new owner is also happily riding it:












The crack in the above pic is difficult to see but it comes down from the joint and forks out across the crown in that patch of white reflected light. In evidence of the thickness and brittleness of the paint, look at that area just above the cable stop where the brake hit the tube and a deep flake of paint fell off, which I touched up with nail varnish

I suggest you grab the rear dropouts and bend and twist them as hard as you can while listening for telltale creaks or grating sounds.


----------



## Monsieur Remings (14 Aug 2014)

Here is the reply this morning from Ribble which pretty much backs up what Smokin Joe, fossyant and Globalti above (thanks also for the input globalti) have said:

_Hi Sam,

We fully appreciate your concern.

From the photos, this does not appear to be a structural problem but slight cosmetic damage to the paint coating.

The seatstay and chainstays meet the dropout and are glued and wrapped with carbon to make the joint stronger than the individual components.

To ensure a smooth surface prior to painting, a filler is used which gets sanded down. Sometimes it's a little thick, sometimes a little too thin. With use the joint has to flex with the frame and in rare occasions it can develop a thin cosmetic crack in the paint.

Your bike is unfortunately outside of warranty. However, this is easily repaired by sanding/filling/sanding again before repainting.

Best regards.

_


----------



## Dragonwight (14 Aug 2014)

Is it not possible to simply remove a bit of paint and see if its cracked underneath?


----------



## Rob3rt (14 Aug 2014)

I'd donk off a few kerbs with a crap wheel in the back and then see if it looks worse or smashes, if not, I'd continue riding it. Might even pretend to be an expert and tap it with an allen key and listen to the sound if I was feeling thorough!


----------



## 400bhp (14 Aug 2014)

Garethgas said:


> I would...
> "There is a close connection between the requirements of merchantable quality and fitness for purpose and the requirement that goods must also be capable of enduring for a reasonable period and must be free from any propensity to deteriorate seriously or break down. To the judge's mind, this means that goods must not unduly break down during their normal life-span and that if they do, the breakdown is often a clear symptom of their inappropriate quality."
> 
> The merchantable quality of a product is related to it's cost, the manufacturer, and 'reasonable' time.
> ...


A judge....seriously, get real


----------



## Monsieur Remings (14 Aug 2014)

Sounds like a plan Rob3rt, as I said though,couldn't a cosmetic paint crack also get worse?


----------



## Garethgas (14 Aug 2014)

400bhp said:


> A judge....seriously, get real



Thanks for your valuable contribution.
In case you hadn't noticed, that was a direct quote from a similar case.
As it turns out, it seems that the cracks are just superficial paint cracks rather than structural failure.


----------



## MikeW-71 (14 Aug 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Sounds like a plan Rob3rt, as I said though,couldn't a cosmetic paint crack also get worse?


Possible, but it won't affect the frame structure.


----------



## 400bhp (14 Aug 2014)

Garethgas said:


> Thanks for your valuable contribution.
> In case you hadn't noticed, that was a direct quote from a similar case.
> As it turns out, it seems that the cracks are just superficial paint cracks rather than structural failure.


Really-third person was he.

Youve extrapolated that quote to a concrete solution. In reality its much more complicated.
So, thanks for your unhelpful response yo the op.


----------



## Globalti (14 Aug 2014)

Stop bickering. This is Remings's thread.


----------



## Garethgas (14 Aug 2014)

400bhp said:


> Really-third person was he.
> 
> Youve extrapolated that quote to a concrete solution. In reality its much more complicated.
> So, thanks for your unhelpful response yo the op.



I took the trouble to find a similar problem so that the OP could see that just because it's out of warranty, doesn't mean that the manufacturers have no liability.
I was going to provide a link if he was interested but it seems to be resolved now.
Yet you still see fit to snipe from the sidelines.


----------



## Smokin Joe (14 Aug 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Sounds like a plan Rob3rt, as I said though,couldn't a cosmetic paint crack also get worse?


Smooth it off so the crack is no longer visible and then touch it up with paint (Or just forget about it). Ribble's reply to you and the photos Globalti posted would ease any worries if it was my frame.


----------



## Monsieur Remings (14 Aug 2014)

Many thanks to all of you; I think I'll carry on riding her then.


----------



## S.Giles (14 Aug 2014)

Nothing stays new-looking forever, so given that it's not a structural problem I'd forget about it (which is pretty-much what you've stated in the above post). Personally, I've never been attracted to the sheen that characterises brand-new items.

In the world of old guitars, this sort of thing is known as 'patina', and is considered to add to the character of the item in question. I'd start worrying about my bicycle's cosmetic details when everything else in my life was _absolutely perfect_ (ie, never!)

Steve


----------



## 400bhp (14 Aug 2014)

Garethgas said:


> I took the trouble to find a similar problem so that the OP could see that just because it's out of warranty, doesn't mean that the manufacturers have no liability.
> I was going to provide a link if he was interested but it seems to be resolved now.
> Yet you still see fit to snipe from the sidelines.



Changed tact


----------



## Mattonsea (14 Aug 2014)

User14044mountain said:


> @Mattonsea had a similar problem recently. I think he found someone to repair it. But I'm not sure how much it cost or how successful it was.


It looks exactly like the issue I had , It does look like a paint crack but the carbon has fractured . I took my pride and joy to Spire Cycles in Dorset and Its taken a week and £100 to fix by Matt there. Life in the old dog yet!!


----------



## Monsieur Remings (14 Aug 2014)

Mattonsea said:


> It looks exactly like the issue I had , It does look like a paint crack but the carbon has fractured . I took my pride and joy to Spire Cycles in Dorset and Its taken a week and £100 to fix by Matt there. Life in the old dog yet!!



Okay, difference of opinion then; will check out Spire cycles. Thanks.


----------



## gbb (15 Aug 2014)

MikeW-71 said:


> No you wouldn't. You'd only need an expert report stating that it isn't damage that you have caused and it's a defect of manufacture. I'd be expecting a bike frame to last a minimum of 10 years, particularly a carbon frame that doesn't rust or fatigue. If it is a defective frame, Ribble should be paying to get it sorted regardless what the warranty length is.
> 
> If the frame was 6 years old, then you no longer have that route, and you would just have to pay for repair or replace it.
> 
> If I understand the process correctly, the dropouts are an aluminium piece that is glued into the ends of the seatstays and chainstays. Sometimes there will be a filler applied to smooth the join, then it is painted. The filler may have cracked (not structural, frame is OK) or it may just be a paint crack (also OK), or the glue has let go (not something that should happen, but it's serious).


I suspect the statement 'only need an expert report statement the the damage hadn't been caused by you and was defective manufacture (sp)'...would be impossible to obtain, with any credibility anyway.
Yes, you MAY be able to prove defecrive manufacture, but you could never get someone else to prove it wasnt your fault...why, because no one but the rider knows what conditions you've rode in, what potholes, bumps, drops, hits the bike has been exposed to.

It is a difficult choice to make. I brought my Ribble knowing it only had a two year guarantee. It bugged me, shall I, shall I not take the risk. The alternative is simple...buy a bike with a lifetime guarantee. BUT, you'll probably pay more for it in the frist place.
You pay your money, you take your chance sadly.
Edited to say...TBF, I re read your first line and you are stating it correctly, just from a different angle.


----------



## Globalti (15 Aug 2014)

Carbon fibre bike building is still a new technology even though it's moving fast (unlike metal frame technology) and different manufacturers are learning from their mistakes. Carbon fibre can't yet make good dropouts (or if it can, they would cost too much) and to make a carbon dropout that is an integral part of the frame would be horrendously difficult so for the moment frame manufacturers are forced to join old technology forged alloy fork ends and dropouts with new technology bladder-moulded carbon frame tubes. And there's the problem - carbon chain stays and seat stays are flexy, which is why carbon frames have that magical smooth riding quality, so to join a flexy tube to a rigid forged dropout in a way that transfers the stresses smoothly from flexy to rigid is something they haven't quite got right yet. But they will.

That's why they won't give more than a two-year warranty. We only give two years on our products because experience tells us that after two years the stuff has begun to deteriorate to the point where laymen will be able to tell the difference between old and freshly-made. It doesn't mean the products expire after two years; merely that they will have begun to deteriorate.


----------

