# Thoughts on a Round Europe Trip



## MacB (27 Oct 2014)

Is this feasible or just crazy?:-

London-Aberdeen-Norway-Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania-Belarus-Poland-Czech Republic-Austria-Italy-Ferry to Southern Spain-Spain-Belgium-Germany-Denmark-Netherlands-UK

Or should I look at just touring North America instead?

Time and/or money wouldn't be an issue


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## Dayvo (27 Oct 2014)

Definitely doable.

And if time and money aren't a problem, do both. 

And in that case you might as well go the whole hog and include Asia, Australia, South/Central America and Africa.

Keep us informed.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

Well I'm guesstimating total cycle distance at about 10k miles and was thinking of allowing 9 months total. That works out at 37 miles per day so should allow for rest days etc. I was thinking of just buggering off and making it up as I went along, the basic kit is straight forward and I can always buy anything I forget.

Biggest decision would be timing re weather and direction of route, maybe go anti clockwise taking in Southern Europe in the colder months and heading North as it warms up. I was thinking of a start date in Feb/Mar 2015 for anti clockwise and May/Jun for clockwise, just go for it and see how far I get?


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

If going clockwise you could start in April for southern Scandinavia (as a reasonable guess): not hot, but dry, sunny and longish hours of daylight.

You're welcome to stay over if you are in/near Oslo.


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## Crankarm (28 Oct 2014)

But I wouldn't start until late Spring next year as winter in Norway, Sweden and Finland is cold .

Would you be planning riding to the Nord Kapp? Sounds like the makings of a great trip. Wild camping or credit card touring?

I would be tempted to do it in reverse start by heading south to Southern Spain, winter there, then as the seasons change next year head north. But you'll need to get a wriggle on to get passed the Pyrenees before the cold weather and snows arrive. That's my 2ps worth.


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

Norway is a long country.

Oslo to Nordkapp is about 2,000 km. And from Kristiansand (ferry from Denmark) is approx. 2,300 km.


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## Crankarm (28 Oct 2014)

Dayvo said:


> Norway is a long country.
> 
> Oslo to Nordkapp is about 2,000 km. And from Kristiansand (ferry from Denmark) is approx. 2,300 km.



And an awful lot of steep but beautiful fjords and hills in the way .


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## slowmotion (28 Oct 2014)

That sounds absolutely fantastic. I know nothing about nearly all of your route but please make sure that you go to Amsterdam at the end of it. You can ride down the LF1 to the Hoek if you want. The Stena overnight ferry to Harwich is a wonderful way to come home.


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## xilios (28 Oct 2014)

Wow if we had 9 months we would be heading for the northeast coast of America ride west to Washington state south to California than east to Florida.
This can be done in just about 9 months. And yes we've already checked it out  its set for a future tour.
For Europe we would do clockwise, some Scandinavian countries then the Iron curtain trail south, as its a land climate and much colder, than work your way around to Spain which is a bit warmer. At least you'll finish in a warmer place.
Check out one of our favorite tours on CGOAB http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=Sh&doc_id=878&v=22N for inspiration.


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

Crankarm said:


> And an awful lot of steep but beautiful fjords and hills in the way .



Yeah, one or two small obstacles to conquer!


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Is this feasible or just crazy?:-
> 
> London-Aberdeen-Norway-Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania-Belarus-Poland-Czech Republic-Austria-Italy-Ferry to Southern Spain-Spain-Belgium-Germany-Denmark-Netherlands-UK
> 
> ...


doable? yes, I've done it.

England, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, England, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia, Macedonia, Greece and Turkey... 

We left our home on the 28th Feb 2011 to do exactly that. We were still getting sharp frosts in the Netherlands in May... but it was definitely worth while. Went up to Nordkapp and then across to Grense Jakobselv (Russian/Norwegain border on the Barent's Sea). Absolutely wonderful. Just go for it and enjoy yourself.


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## Ticktockmy (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Is this feasible or just crazy?:-
> 
> London-Aberdeen-Norway-Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania-Belarus-Poland-Czech Republic-Austria-Italy-Ferry to Southern Spain-Spain-Belgium-Germany-Denmark-Netherlands-UK
> 
> ...



Go for it, Head up to the nordkapp, then follow the iron curtain trail south into Czech Republic


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## GrumpyGregry (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Is this feasible or just crazy?:-
> 
> London-Aberdeen-Norway-Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania-Belarus-Poland-Czech Republic-Austria-Italy-Ferry to Southern Spain-Spain-Belgium-Germany-Denmark-Netherlands-UK
> 
> ...


I know it is a ghastly, and horribly overused phrase, given as an excuse for all manner of recklessness and inappropriate behaviour but...

YOLO. (One of my best friends dropped dead a few weeks ago out on his bike - he had plenty of trips planned)

If time and money are not an issue JFDI!


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## steveindenmark (28 Oct 2014)

People ride bikes round the World. Why do you need to ask if you can ride round Europe? I would have thought the answer was self evident.


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## Crackle (28 Oct 2014)

If you're riding yourself in, I would think a Northern route will be a lot tougher.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

steveindenmark said:


> People ride bikes round the World. Why do you need to ask if you can ride round Europe? I would have thought the answer was self evident.



just a general question and looking for feedback, useful links and information, if I tried to wade through every bike trip journal/book on the web it would take a lot longer than the trip itself. Of course I know it can be done just as I know there will be those on here that will provide invaluable information that I may not have gleaned otherwise.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

Crackle said:


> If you're riding yourself in, I would think a Northern route will be a lot tougher.



yep, was thinking that myself and yep would be riding myself in, so a more gentle start would make sense - it may all be pie in the sky but I'm not sure if I'll ever have the health and opportunity again....leaning towards @GrumpyGregry with the YOLO


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

@MacB don't underestimate how much land there is north of the UK. It will take a while to get up and back down with whatever route you follow and we were very late in the season coming south - everyone we met told us we had left it too late to cycle south from Grense Jakobselv (we left there around mid August!). We covered just under 14,000km in the 12 months we were out. Our average journey was 45 miles a day (for the days we cycled) and do not expect to cycle every single day. You will need to pace yourself and allow your body rest days. We aimed for a rest day once a week, but sometimes had to push for anything up to 11 days before we stopped. Even getting to the Artic circle felt like a major achievement and there was still an awful lot of land above there before Nordkapp.

If you ride up through the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and into Sweden first you will have had plenty of time to get fit before you get to Norway... And Sweden has the advantage of being cheaper than Norway, one reason we (and many other tourers we met) stayed over there for so long before heading over the border just before Mo I Rana and the Artic Circle, and northern Norway is relatively flat (except for that beautiful last bit that has loads and loads of climbing before you get to Nordkapp despite Nordkapp only being at something like 300m!)

PS we set out from Elstead. not that far from you and Sussex was hard work! Norway felt easy by comparison!


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

Unless you particularly wanted to visit Finland (up through Norway, across into Sweden and down through Finland), you don't really need to go there as you can take a ferry from Kapellskär (90 kilometres north of Stockholm) to Paldiski in Estonia.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

Dayvo said:


> Unless you particularly wanted to visit Finland (up through Norway, across into Sweden and down through Finland), you don't really need to go there as you can take a ferry from Kapellskär (90 kilometres north of Stockholm) to Paldiski in Estonia.


I rather enjoyed Finland... directions were really easy. Follow this road for 2 days, when you get to the T junction, turn left and follow the road for 4 days. Navigation was a doddle but rather like Sweden I did get a touch fed up of straight roads and nothing but trees and more trees after a while.... but that was southern Finland, northern Finland was great and you got to see something other than trees that is!


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

Indeed, Finland is great for cycling, but given the OP's 'first' route, it's a lot of miles 'out of the way' IF he's going to do the rest of his proposed tour.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

Dayvo said:


> Unless you particularly wanted to visit Finland (up through Norway, across into Sweden and down through Finland), you don't really need to go there as you can take a ferry from Kapellskär (90 kilometres north of Stockholm) to Paldiski in Estonia.



It's tricky getting it straight in my mind as I want to do it all but I don't want to do it in a 'tickbox' manner, just checking off the places. I'm actually starting to think a better idea would be two separate tours over two years, one for Northern and one for Southern Europe. I suppose it really comes down to how I feel about riding/camping in more severe conditions.

I suspect I'll end up treating it as a see how it goes exercise, just get going and let it develop.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

Dayvo said:


> Indeed, Finland is great for cycling, but given the OP's 'first' route, it's a lot of miles 'out of the way' IF he's going to do the rest of his proposed tour.



I think that'll be the key for me 'proposed', I'm not goal/target orientated so if I ended up cycling around Finland for 6 months, or any other part I really liked then it wouldn't bother me. There is no desire here to achieve anything in particular other than I would like to get up towards the arctic circle. Apart from that I'm just curious to see how I'd get on for a few months on a bike.


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> I think that'll be the key for me 'proposed', I'm not goal/target orientated so if I ended up cycling around Finland for 6 months, or any other part I really liked then it wouldn't bother me. *There is no desire here to achieve anything in particular other than I would like to get up towards the arctic circle*. Apart from that I'm just curious to see how I'd get on for a few months on a bike.



Doing two separate tours (north and south) would make a lot more sense, both in terms of quality over quantity, and time. At a rough guess, I reckon you could do each tour in about three months without having to worry about extreme temperatures or conditions.

Jimmy Doug (of CC fame) cycled from Paris to Oslo (stayed with us for two nights), then plodded up and on towards the Arctic Circle. I think his blog is in his sig. line.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

So a couple of questions of a more practical nature:-

1. Electronics - bike would be a dedicated tourer, rohloff/son combination - looked at the E-werk, PlugIII, B&M Luxus U, additional battery packs and so on. I think minimum would be a smartphone and Bluetooth keyboard - is it worth lugging a laptop or netbook? is a smartphone enough with some paper maps as backup or would a dedicated GPS be better? Or should it be GPS for travel and smartphone/keyboard or smartphone/netbook for evening?

2. Tents - are Hilleburg worth the dosh? would it be smarter to plan on two tents and change part way round? Stand alone or tunnel?

3. Borders/Papers - are there any countries on my list where a standard British Passport wouldn't suffice?

4. Front and rear panniers or rear only?


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## snorri (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> , if I tried to wade through every bike trip journal/book on the web it would take a lot longer than the trip itself..


Precisely, and why would you want to load yourself with information so that you knew what to expect around every corner, it would take much of the excitement and interest out of the adventure.
Just make an outline plan and get on your bike. Bad things can happen to you anywhere, even if you stay at home, so what is there to lose?
The worst that is likely to happen is that you get bored and feel you want to come home, if you don't tell anyone how long you intend being away, you don't have to invent lame excuses for an earlier return.


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> So a couple of questions of a more practical nature:-
> 
> 1. Electronics - bike would be a dedicated tourer, rohloff/son combination - looked at the E-werk, PlugIII, B&M Luxus U, additional battery packs and so on. I think minimum would be a smartphone and Bluetooth keyboard - is it worth lugging a laptop or netbook? is a smartphone enough with some paper maps as backup or would a dedicated GPS be better? Or should it be GPS for travel and smartphone/keyboard or smartphone/netbook for evening?
> 
> ...



Can't offer any advice on the first point as I'm not technical, although a GPS and iPad/notebook/smartphone should be a good combination.

A warm/comfortable sleeping bag and good sleeping mat are, IMO, of the utmost importance. I VERY much recommend an exped mat - a bit dear, but what price a good night's sleep _every_ night?. Vango tents are good for the purpose, as are Hillebergs. Depends, I suppose, on your budget. Also, a 2-man tent, possibly a 3-man tent would be practical and cosy, although I'm not too sure about the extra weight. Style of tent depends on your personal preference.

British passport should suffice everywhere, although I'm not too sure about visas.

I've previously done two long tours and only had rear panniers, but in future I'll go for both front and rear.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> 2. Tents - are Hilleburg worth the dosh? would it be smarter to plan on two tents and change part way round? Stand alone or tunnel?


Hilleberg tents are worth every penny of it and will serve you year round. We went tunnel and have had no issues.
Exped mat - I will second.

As for whether you take a laptop/netbook it is entirely up to you. We took a small 13inch laptop which was invaluable to us for keeping in contact with family (Skype) and updating our journal.

Belarus you will need a visa for... there are details on my journal (signature) on a page called Visas... it is expensive, very expensive to get a visa for Belarus.

Have a look at Voltaic Systems solar battery chargers. We are looking at getting on in the new year. Still haven't decided on 9W or 6W but I have seen them in action on other tourers this year and have heard nothing but good reports about them. We also have the SON28 hub and use it for USM charging with varied success... didn't go down the e-werks route. I prefer solar which works even in cloudy conditions.

Long tour and I mean long, multi month tours you should consider 4 panniers especially in less commonly travelled areas. You will find you need different kit and suddenly those tiny tubes of toothpaste, small bottles of shampoo and single sachets of washing powder are no longer economical. Neither of the smallest jars of coffee (just tip the coffee powder into a plastic bag to save the glass jar weight)... you will need to carry additional kit and not rely on finding a bike shop - so spare spokes, spoke key, eccentric bottom bracket tool, rohloff sprocket removal tool etc will all need to be carried. You will also need to consider sewing kits, repair kits for things like panniers getting holes, tent getting damaged accidentally, clothes getting very holely, waterproofs getting damaged etc.

We travelled using solely paper maps - most of them picked up free of charge... but that is a personal choice.


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> Hilleberg tents are worth every penny of it and will serve you year round. We went tunnel and have had no issues.
> Exped mat - I will second.
> 
> As for whether you take a laptop/netbook it is entirely up to you. We took a small 13inch laptop which was invaluable to us for keeping in contact with family (Skype) and updating our journal.
> ...



Interesting on the solar charger, I'd had a skim of a few sites and sort of dismissed them, I see that they act as a cache battery as well. I'll need to spend a bit of time getting this aspect sorted. Despite my time on here I'm not a big social media user as a rule and my main source of entertainment would be reading. Thw wrost I could do is take too much and end up mailing some of it home.


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## threebikesmcginty (28 Oct 2014)

No offence to the Fins but Finland can be a bit dull, Sweden is lovely and Norway is fantastic, it needs to be money no object though as everything is a million pounds. You're a bastard anyway, mac, but now...


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Interesting on the solar charger, I'd had a skim of a few sites and sort of dismissed them, I see that they act as a cache battery as well. I'll need to spend a bit of time getting this aspect sorted. Despite my time on here I'm not a big social media user as a rule and my main source of entertainment would be reading. Thw wrost I could do is take too much and end up mailing some of it home.



Hmmm, the 10w could be the answer, I've sent them a question, which I guess will be no, to see if the storage battery can accept more than one input at once. Would be nice to be able to input solar panel and generator hub together. Even if the solar panel gets knackered you can still charge up the battery from mains to use as a backup charger. I think maybe a belt and braces approach by having something like the PlugIII or the Luxus U up front plus this out the back.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Interesting on the solar charger, I'd had a skim of a few sites and sort of dismissed them, I see that they act as a cache battery as well. I'll need to spend a bit of time getting this aspect sorted. Despite my time on here I'm not a big social media user as a rule and my main source of entertainment would be reading. Thw wrost I could do is take too much and end up mailing some of it home.


one of the good things about this design is you can mains charge it as well which through all of Scandinavia (when actually using campsites) is a doddle because all but one of the ones we used have kitchens and frequently laundry areas with power as well...


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

threebikesmcginty said:


> No offence to the Fins but Finland can be a bit dull, Sweden is lovely and Norway is fantastic, it needs to be money no object though as everything is a million pounds. You're a bastard anyway, mac, but now...



Due to my own inherent dullness I could have a whale of a time in Finland....and yes I love you too


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## threebikesmcginty (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Due to my own inherent dullness I could have a whale of a time in Finland....and yes I love you too



Oh it's fun, I meant dull as in the 'yet another 1000 miles of trees' bit. You'll have a great time, we'll miss you.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Oh it's fun, I meant dull as in the 'yet another 1000 miles of trees' bit. You'll have a great time, we'll miss you.


I had similar issues through Sweden... took to conducting experiments on ants at lunch time because that was about all there was to do... there weren't enough cars to play licence plate black jack or enough sign posts to play scrabble. My OH held some interesting conversations with himself though, speaking in 2 different voices...


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> I had similar issues through Sweden... took to conducting experiments on ants at lunch time because that was about all there was to do... there weren't enough cars to play licence plate black jack or enough sign posts to play scrabble. My OH held some interesting conversations with himself though, speaking in 2 different voices...



Well I reckon imagining different ways to kill 3BM could occupy me for many thousands of miles of trees, for some reason it's a daydream I never seem to grow tired of.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Well I reckon imagining different ways to kill 3BM could occupy me for many thousands of miles of trees, for some reason it's a daydream I never seem to grow tired of.


after a couple of million trees, you will be happy to see him and thank him for the entertainment he provides


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

Ok carrying on with the kit list, bike:-

frame = fine
guards = yes
wheelset - rohloff/son 700c probably handbuilt 36h on DT Swiss touring rims
tools - I have no shortage, keeping it down will be an issue
spares - spokes, 2 x tubes, repair kit, one tire or go with Marathon Tour or Plus and take no spare, or just a get me to the next place folding spare? chain, brake pads(BB7 discs), cable - that would be it for me
tires - I'd be running big tires, certainly 700x45 or bigger, comfort choice would be Marathon Supreme but would M+/Tour be more sensible?
lights - temptation is for the Luxus U at the front to take care of charging from the hub needs and whatever rack mount taillight matches. Plus one each front and rear emergency battery lights
racks - front and rear

next will be luggage


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (28 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Ok carrying on with the kit list, bike:-
> 
> frame = fine
> guards = yes
> ...


tyres will depend entirely on which country you are in and what roads you plan to do. remember the UK is odd in having all roads as tarmac... a lot of the Scandinavian roads are gravel or dirt roads... also I would carry a spare. We got lucky the day my OH's rear tyre blew out. We could have dealt with the issues ourselves with there being 2 of us... but it would have cost us our ferry (Honningsvåg to Meeham) and they only sail once a day. A folding spare will be fine.
I can't see you will need an emergency light for each... you will need to carry something like a head torch anyway for campsite/wild camping use at night - this can easily double as a spare light (we put it over our barbags when in tunnels and it worked just fine).


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> I can't see you will need an emergency light for each... you will need to carry something like a head torch anyway for campsite/wild camping use at night - this can easily double as a spare light (we put it over our barbags when in tunnels and it worked just fine).



and there's one of those bits of knowledge I was looking for, painfully obvious when pointed out but much appreciated


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## rich p (28 Oct 2014)

I'm envious Mac.
If it were me I'd be heading for the warmer climes from Feb. We're all different and you may have other reasons for heading north (Dayvo is a generous bugger!), but touring and camping in *warm* weather is unbeatable IMO.
France, Portugal, Spain, Italy, the Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia...
SatNav may know better but I've read some pretty dispiriting CGOAB reports from people who have flogged round Latvia, Lithuania etc but hey ho.
I shall read your progress with interest till you set off.
Make sure I get an invite to the pre-launch party!


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## Dayvo (28 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> Make sure I get an invite to the pre-launch party!



Party at my place!


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## MacB (28 Oct 2014)

Well a key aspect will be that nothing's set in stone, I really do plan on making it up as I go along. For starters Belarus is off the menu now as I don't want to mess about with visas. The two 6 month trips over two years option is looking more likely now and probably the Southern loop first. That'll be my training/learning trip for the following Northern loop which I anticipate to be a bit harder.

The only serious prep I'll do is on the kit after that I trust to my inate abilities with cash/credit card to get me by.


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## Crankarm (29 Oct 2014)

Southern Spain would be nice now, far too hot in June July August and Scandinavia far too cold in the winter making it impossible.

Re charging. I'm looking at the Goal Zero Nomad 20 solar panels and their Sherpa 100 battery pack. The solar panels will fit nicely over the rear panniers and the charger can be mains charged and has multiple inputs and outputs. It can charge smartphones, i-pads, AA and dslr batteries, laptops. With your Son 28 front hub I would consider a Tout Terrain head set USB plug as well so you have two different sources of power.

Rohloff hub 36 holes is seriously heavy duty. It is my preferred choice as well. 36H wheels will mean you will be able to carry some serious weight. Maybe worth carrying a spare Rohloff rear sprocket or two or indeed different sizes, for climbing and the flat. Also you'll need to carry the hub oil change kit. You won't have any problems in Germany ……...

Tents - I have looked long and hard and there are many candidates, but the one that stands head and shoulders above the rest is the MSR Hubba Hubba.

If doing Northern countries in winter you need a good sleeping bag at least a 4 season down bag. But the winter cold can be unremitting and you'll have problems staying dry and keeping your clothing dry. I can't think of anything worse than putting on smelly damp/wet cycle clothing on a cold winter's morning with the prospect of a long cold ride ahead.

Exped mats may be comfortable but they are pretty heavy and large. I have a 3.8cm Mountain Equipment one which is very comfortable.

Panniers - 4 all round with a bar bag, either Ortlieb or Vaude. My preference is for Vaude as they are just better.

Tyres and tubes - I would go with a couple of spares of each, tyres folding. But in Europe you are never going to be far from a good bike shop or indeed internet to order some from UK.

Pump - Topeak Road Morph for MTBs as larger volume.

Stove - Trangia 25-6 running on gas. Self contained having everything - you can cook in and eat out of the pots. Butane/propane gas is available in most major European countries even France however a little more difficult to find there as the French prefer Camping Gaz still thinking they are right on everything and the rest of the world will do as them. Also MSR are just about to launch their new WIndbolier stove which is pretty impressive. Similar to a Jetboil but boils water so much more quickly and is resistant to wind as it has a neat convector wind shield.

Don't forget water carrying capacity - 3 bottle cages and separate bladders.

Lights just in case, your usual lights will be fine, no need to get anything special. Definitely a head torch - Petzl.

Clothing - wet weather gear and over shoes as it will rain.

GPS/Phone - MemoryMap have just launched the TX3 unit which is a GPS combined with Smartphone. It comes with 1:50k or 1:25k OS mapping for UK. It uses Seal smartphone which few have heard of but watch this space, as soon as a large manufacturer decides it is the way to go, GPS and Smartphones will seamlessly become one.

Kindle to avoid taking heavy books.

Net book or small lap top for editing pictures, keeping journal/blog , etc.

Camera and or head cam such as a Go-Pro.

An itinery of places you want to go and things you want to do. It would be very dull if all you did was ride from A to B everyday, well it would be for me. For instance maybe you might want to do some walking, hiking at some point, as I am guessing your tour is as much of a holiday as it is a bike ride. Maybe you could have a theme to your ride to make it more interesting?

This is it for now.

HTH.


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## Crackle (29 Oct 2014)

Crankarm makes a good point. Sometimes you want to leave the bike and do something else, maybe not walking but something. A day trip or a longer excursion, so take what you need for that. I personally took boots and a rucksac on one tour and did three days walking. I also played golf once and stayed with someone for a few days. You don't always have to be on the bike and if you don't fancy a bit, well, sling the bike on a train or plane.


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## Bodhbh (29 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> tires - I'd be running big tires, certainly 700x45 or bigger, comfort choice would be Marathon Supreme but would M+/Tour be more sensible?



A few people have had issues with the sidewalls failing on the Supremes, there's a thread about it here on on the CTC forums. I have a pair and have not had any issues, but you may want to give them a pass. Also, personally, I'd want something with at least a little tread - you never know when you might want to take on a bit of the rough stuff. M+ Tours look a bit overkill for Europe tho.

I am not jealous.


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## MacB (29 Oct 2014)

Thanks @Crankarm very comprehensive and excellent info - tentwise I'm leaning towards the Terra Nova Voyager XL with additional footprint. But that's from a shortlist of Hilleburg, MSR and Terra Nova and isn't final yet. Stove sounds good and I'd already decided gas would be my choice. I don't drink tea or coffee so it will be cooking only it's used for and less need to boil water. Muesli/porridge for breakfast, lunch on the hoof and stew/stirfry type evening.

Electronics will continue to haunt me - the SON hub is a definite as is some sort of USB attachment only decision is whether I go with a Luxus U with USB built in or a separate light and USB solution like The PlugIII, I'm leaning to the separate as there's no real weight difference and less likely for two separate things to fail. Got a reply from Voltaic and their battery can accept multiple inputs just needs splicing into the wire. If I give them the details they're happy to make up the connection for me, rather good customer service there. That's looking positive I like the idea of being able to use the solar battery storage even without sunshine. Cameras aren't a concern as I'm not a picture taker so I don't need fancy kit or editing software etc. I'm not trying to create a blog or write a book, I'll probably keep a journal for my own reference but knowing me it could be rarely updated.

Sleeping - I think it will be a decent mat and a pillow, I sleep on my side and I'm large and I'm not good with too little sleep - so the extra weight/bulk would seem like a sensible tradeoff

Tires/tubes - I'm happy to take just one spare tire and two tubes, I'll be able to replace at will, I may go with something like the Marathon Tour, bit of tread not as heavy as the M+ and stronger sidewalls than the Supreme. But the spare would be a folding Supreme only for a get me to the next bike shop purpose. Anything more catastrophic and I can always get a taxi.

General kit/spares - I would plan on setting up a deal/account with an online shop so that I can easily order anything I need and it can be delivered to any destination, I believe SJSC are very good for this though not the cheapest. But that goes for everything, kit, bike, clothes, the lot - if I don't like it or it fails then swap it out, the bike can take derailleurs as well as rohloff so that's covered as well.

Breaks - yes it will be a holiday as well and I'll probably take a full week a few times and just play normal tourist - buy some clothes that I can mail home or give to a charity when I move on. Sounds extravagant but if you think about it for £1k I could probably do this 6 times and spend about £150 on clothes each time.

Camping - this will be the toughest part for me, not the sleeping etc but the actual wild camping bit, have to break down some internal barriers to feel comfortable doing it, but I'm sure I'll manage.

Destinations - I've decided I'll tackle Southern and Central first and leave Northern until the following year. I want to be a more seasoned traveller before I take on more severe conditions. I figure if it gets too hot then I'll just travel less and holiday more on those days/weeks.

Budget - I reckon if I allow £100 per day then that should cover most eventualities.


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Oct 2014)

All I'm going to say is, 
consider the merits of frame bags as beloved of our amer-i-can cousins
-and-
consider the merits of Bobyak trailers, as beloved of, well, ditto.


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## Tigerbiten (29 Oct 2014)

This summer I did a 5 month/ 6,000 mile tour around Europe.
Northampton to Varna via the Danube. 
Then roughly due north to Riga. 
Then back along the Baltic to Home.
I like to cycle for four days and then have one off due to bad knees.
I budgeted around £20 per day and it ended up around £18.

Camped most of the time but did stay in the odd hotel. Either built up and no campsites and/or bad weather.
Wild camping is hard in western Europe because it to built up but it's a lot easier in eastern Europe with more open space.
I now take two sleeping bags, a 2.5 season one and a 3 season one.
Used both together for sub-zero temps in early April, then singly as it warms up.

Maps-route planning. 
I use a Garmin eTrex with a pan-europe map for my day to day navigation.
It runs off a couple of AA batteries which are easy to recharge overnight.
For planning the next 4-7 day leg of the route, I've a Nexus.
This lets me pull up Google maps and Bikehike for longer range planning and looking for campsites.

Power.
My 20 watt solar panel was great while it worked but gave up the ghost after 3 weeks.
After that I just relied on my pair of Power Monkey cache batteries.
Each one would keep my Kindle and eTrex batteries going for around 4 days.
Recharged at campsites and hotels as needed.
I tried not to use the Nexus a lot unless I had easy access to power.


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

@Tigerbiten thanks excellent stuff and may I ask what sort of solar panel it was that failed on you and how?


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> All I'm going to say is,
> consider the merits of frame bags as beloved of our amer-i-can cousins
> -and-
> consider the merits of Bobyak trailers, as beloved of, well, ditto.



It is tempting, trailer, plus racktop bag, plus saddle bag, plus bar bag would be plenty I would think. I'd imagine the trailer would add a little to overall weight but probably not much.

Jeez I thought I had luggage clear in my mind, now I'm off to peruse the site for trailer v pannier tales


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## Crankarm (30 Oct 2014)

A trailer as well ………… wow! What are you planning taking that you need that much space?


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

Crankarm said:


> A trailer as well ………… wow! What are you planning taking that you need that much space?



I don't know yet and the trailer would be instead of panniers - I've been reading all the pros and cons attributed to the two options and I'm still undecided. Well I've decided that if I went trailer I'd be a two wheel person rather than single option. So it's:-

4 panniers, rackpack, dry bag, bar bag
or
rackpack, bar bag and 1 trailer - Burley Nomad or Flatbed or Carry Freedom Y and probably a big Ortlieb waterproof bag or similar.


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## smith4188 (30 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Is this feasible or just crazy?:-
> London-Aberdeen-Norway-Sweden-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-Lithuania-Belarus-Poland-Czech Republic-Austria-Italy-Ferry to Southern Spain-Spain-Belgium-Germany-Denmark-Netherlands-UK



I did a 22,000 mile/3 year tour of Europe recently. It's fantastic. But why the ferry to Spain? France is lovely.

Your only challenge might be the Belarusian visa. I got mine through a lucky contact (an ambassador). Without him it would have been more difficult. Also, they changed the rules recently so that you have to pre-book accommodation for each night of your trip (unless you can convince them you are staying at a local's house), and in pricey official hotels. Chances are none of these will be on your route. But if money is no object, then that's not a problem. But do go to Belarus. Almost no one does. The roads are quiet and the experience is weird rather than enjoyable but you'll see some interesting things. And don't expect Belarusians to start a conversation with you. They're on their guard.

Someone was staying Spain's too hot from June-August. Depends how warm you can take it. I cycled across Spain in August. Started early in the morning and was usually done by 2 pm. It was hot but at least it didn't rain.

But do it. You'll have the time of your life.


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

smith4188 said:


> I did a 22,000 mile/3 year tour of Europe recently. It's fantastic. But why the ferry to Spain? France is lovely.
> 
> Your only challenge might be the Belarusian visa. I got mine through a lucky contact (an ambassador). Without him it would have been more difficult. Also, they changed the rules recently so that you have to pre-book accommodation for each night of your trip (unless you can convince them you are staying at a local's house), and in pricey official hotels. Chances are none of these will be on your route. But if money is no object, then that's not a problem. But do go to Belarus. Almost no one does. The roads are quiet and the experience is weird rather than enjoyable but you'll see some interesting things. And don't expect Belarusians to start a conversation with you. They're on their guard.
> 
> ...



The ferry idea was just a way to hop across from the bottom of Italy but it's already bee deep-sixed as I've explored routes in more detail. France was an oversight it should be included but I've now decided that I will aim for two separate tours starting with Southern and Central. I can then come home and do Northern the following year or, if I'm feeling it, carry on and do the whole thing. My route now would be:-

Londonish - France - Spain - Portugal - Spain - France - Italy - Austria - Hungary - Slovakia - Poland - Czech Republic - Germany - Belgium - Netherlands - Home or North


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## rich p (30 Oct 2014)

The thing about stealth camping is the changes it makes to your day, as far as I can see. I don't do it for a variety of reasons so others will have a more accurate and experienced pov.
From what I've read the reasons are financial, and enabling one to ride longer hours. I doubt either of those will be an issue for MacB.
My MO on tour is an average of 50 miles a day and I aim to finish between 3 and 7 pm but hopefully no later than 5.
I like time to chill, wash, shop and have a gander at the town/village I'm at.
Wild campers usually have to wait till dark before pitching tent and strike camp before they're spotted. What do they do with loaded bike between, say, 5 and 9pm on a southern European tour in June? For a max of 15 euros I'd prefer to lounge around a camp, use the shower and bar etc.
Not trying to start a controversy but genuinely interested.


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## snorri (30 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> Not trying to start a controversy but genuinely interested.


I would just say that of course stealth camping is unnecessary in countries which permit wild camping. There is no need for concealment when wild camping, just a respect for the privacy of others.


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## rich p (30 Oct 2014)

snorri said:


> I would just say that of course stealth camping is unnecessary in countries which permit wild camping. There is no need for concealment when wild camping, just a respect for the privacy of others.


True!


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (30 Oct 2014)

we wild camped a lot. we did not wait around for the light to go dark. Sometimes we stayed and ate our meal before putting up the tent, but we rarely bothered with even that! It wasn't a problem if you find the right place out of sight. All you needed to do was make sure you didn't get seen 'going in' and stayed reasonably quiet if you were in a busy area...

We also called out tour our 9-5 job... we were usually on the road for 9am and off the road for 5pm... until daylight saving changed and then it became an 8-4 job instead!

As for camping wild in countries that permit it, being seen also had its advantages because people would often come over and talk, say hello and offer to fill flasks with hot water, coffee, tea etc and on one occasion resulted in 1/2-1kg of cloudberries that had been freshly picked, taken home, washed and picked over and the guy then drove back to us and gave them to us. They made a very nice addition to our porridge the next morning.


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> The thing about stealth camping is the changes it makes to your day, as far as I can see. I don't do it for a variety of reasons so others will have a more accurate and experienced pov.
> From what I've read the reasons are financial, and enabling one to ride longer hours. I doubt either of those will be an issue for MacB.
> My MO on tour is an average of 50 miles a day and I aim to finish between 3 and 7 pm but hopefully no later than 5.
> I like time to chill, wash, shop and have a gander at the town/village I'm at.
> ...



I'd imagine I'll start on campsites and maybe never stop, just depends but certainly it would be easier to pick 2 or 3 as a potential destination each day and allow that to set my pace. The ability to shower and wash clothes will make a difference...but a bar!!!! oh dear, I might never leave


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> we wild camped a lot. we did not wait around for the light to go dark. Sometimes we stayed and ate our meal before putting up the tent, but we rarely bothered with even that! It wasn't a problem if you find the right place out of sight. All you needed to do was make sure you didn't get seen 'going in' and stayed reasonably quiet if you were in a busy area...
> 
> We also called out tour our 9-5 job... we were usually on the road for 9am and off the road for 5pm... until daylight saving changed and then it became an 8-4 job instead!
> 
> As for camping wild in countries that permit it, being seen also had its advantages because people would often come over and talk, say hello and offer to fill flasks with hot water, coffee, tea etc and on one occasion resulted in 1/2-1kg of cloudberries that had been freshly picked, taken home, washed and picked over and the guy then drove back to us and gave them to us. They made a very nice addition to our porridge the next morning.



I'm on day 174 page 190 of your write up on crazyguyonabike so you'll need to look sharp, there will be questions and possibly a sainthood nomination for Stuart


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## MacB (30 Oct 2014)

Still stuck on the pannier/trailer debate...thanks @GrumpyGregry .....and I've decided to actually go down the route of buying the kit and then seeing how it fits in either option.

Some of the trailer negatives don't apply. in particular getting them on off transport, but the ability to ride where you want is a consideration for the two wheeled options.


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## rich p (30 Oct 2014)

Incidentally, I know you haven't got into the fine detail of kit yet but I'd recommend a chair of some sort. I use a lightweight 3-legged stool but for a fat bastard larger person like yourself you may be better off with a better quality chair.
@Dave Davenport and @jay clock may have better suggestions.​


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## slowmotion (30 Oct 2014)

I would resist a trailer. With one, I suspect there is a tendency to take too much stuff. We used to do long distance mountain walking and got quite obsessed about cutting down weight. We didn't saw off the handles of toothbrushes but we were heading in that direction.
I'm hopelessly envious of your plans! Splendid.


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## rich p (30 Oct 2014)

slowmotion said:


> We didn't saw off the handles of toothbrushes but we were heading in that direction


A bit of salt on a finger is fine!


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## slowmotion (30 Oct 2014)

rich p said:


> A bit of salt on a finger is fine!


 We had already lopped them off.


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## Tigerbiten (30 Oct 2014)

I pull a large Carry Freedom trailer behind my trike.
On tour I use it for four reasons.
1:- Being disabled I'm on a few tablets per day. So it's easier to start the tour with a full load of tablet rather than trying to get some more along the way.
So the trailer is about one quarter full of tablets at the start.
2:- Being disabled means I cannot pack things down really small in stuff sacks. So I need slightly more volume than an able bodied rider.
3:- Packing gear in the trailer means I'm not altering the CoG of the trike. So silly speed downhill corners are still safe-ish. I've only crashed once in almost six years due to the trailer jackknifing.
4:- Pulling the trailer behind the recumbent trike makes mt rig even more strange ..... . So a better WTF factor, so safer overtakes.
Downside is it does add 10 kg to the weight of the rig and there is no way the trike-trailer combo will go on a plane/train/bus.


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## GrumpyGregry (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Still stuck on the pannier/trailer debate...thanks @GrumpyGregry .....and I've decided to actually go down the route of buying the kit and then seeing how it fits in either option.
> 
> Some of the trailer negatives don't apply. in particular getting them on off transport, but the ability to ride where you want is a consideration for the two wheeled options.


Bobyak... go anywhere. I've done the trans-cambria towing one. Loads of US off-road tourers use them (and frame bags) On the trans I fell off in exactly the same places as I do/did without a trailer but of course I blamed the trailer.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> I'm on day 174 page 190 of your write up on crazyguyonabike so you'll need to look sharp, there will be questions and possibly a sainthood nomination for Stuart


I would imagine that anyone reading my journal either needs nominating for a sainthood or should be watching for men in white coats arriving at their door! Have we made it to the top of Norway yet?


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> I would imagine that anyone reading my journal either needs nominating for a sainthood or should be watching for men in white coats arriving at their door! Have we made it to the top of Norway yet?



 and it's done, a pretty decent effort for someone learning to ride distances and tour at the same time, far better than I think I'd be able to manage. But I did say there would be questions so some mechanical to begin with:-

Being a bit of a rohloff fanboy I notice that you lay the bikes down on their sides a lot whereas I've always avoided this, particularly drive side down, as I understood it could create/encourage an oil leak. Even to the point that I try to minimise wheel horizontal time when I change a tire.

I had already decided to run 38x16 as, with big 700c tires this still gives a top gear of 96" at which point, especially laden down, I'd be more than happy to spin out - did you find you used gear 14 much either on the 42x16 or the 38x16 setups?


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> and it's done, a pretty decent effort for someone learning to ride distances and tour at the same time, far better than I think I'd be able to manage. But I did say there would be questions so some mechanical to begin with:-
> 
> Being a bit of a rohloff fanboy I notice that you lay the bikes down on their sides a lot whereas I've always avoided this, particularly drive side down, as I understood it could create/encourage an oil leak. Even to the point that I try to minimise wheel horizontal time when I change a tire.
> 
> I had already decided to run 38x16 as, with big 700c tires this still gives a top gear of 96" at which point, especially laden down, I'd be more than happy to spin out - did you find you used gear 14 much either on the 42x16 or the 38x16 setups?


You are mad! I hope you enjoyed it! 

My bike has never had a issue with oI'll leaks, my Oh's is another matter... His leaks even vertically and is going back next week to be looked at. We always lay them chain up which helped to keep the oil away from the sprocket. That was the theory any how. 

Consider 38x17 or even the 40x19 which I believe rohloff now allow wrt warranty etc. You will never have enough low gears! Yes we span out on downhills but I do that on all bikes. Running out of low gears is much more of a problem than having too many high gears and the rohloff hub is designed so that you should be using 11th on the flat at your cruising speed with whatever weight you are carrying. Also the more teeth at the rear means less wear on the chain, though I got 14,000km from one chain as it was! Gear 14 does get a surprising amount of use on even the slightest downhill in our experience.


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Bobyak... go anywhere. I've done the trans-cambria towing one. Loads of US off-road tourers use them (and frame bags) On the trans I fell off in exactly the same places as I do/did without a trailer but of course I blamed the trailer.



Greg, I keep looking at the Yak, or the Ibis, and I'm uncomfortable with the weight restriction compared to the Carry Freedom, the coupling system, the lack of freestanding ability and, on a theoretical aspect the reports of handling effects in particular shimmy and difficulties for out of saddle riding. All of which aren't a concern for the 2 wheel options but then they have the big drawback of not being anywhere near as happy off the beaten track. They also have the two track footprint which won't help on rougher roads.

Both a positive and negative is the greater on road footprint, not so good for parking/manouvering but better for overtakes. I also like the claims, especially having read @SatNavSaysStraightOn , the idea that dogs tend to go for trailer rather than rider. I think the biggest attraction for me is the ease of packing compared to distributing across panniers and the ability to take on board that bit extra when you need to(cases of beer spring to mind for some reason).

If using a trailer I'd plan on essentials in a bar bag and tools/spares in the rackpack so the bike would be good to go minus trailer at any time.


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> You are mad! I hope you enjoyed it!
> 
> My bike has never had a issue with oI'll leaks, my Oh's is another matter... His leaks even vertically and is going back next week to be looked at. We always lay them chain up which helped to keep the oil away from the sprocket. That was the theory any how.
> 
> Consider 38x17 or even the 40x19 which I believe rohloff now allow wrt warranty etc. You will never have enough low gears! Yes we span out on downhills but I do that on all bikes. Running out of low gears is much more of a problem than having too many high gears and the rohloff hub is designed so that you should be using 11th on the flat at your cruising speed with whatever weight you are carrying. Also the more teeth at the rear means less wear on the chain, though I got 14,000km from one chain as it was! Gear 14 does get a surprising amount of use on even the slightest downhill in our experience.



Hmmm, I know the rohloff changes but I exceed the weight for going down to 38x16, which I've ignored, let alone the new lower permissables. I would expect to ride myself within their weight limits for 38x16 but would worry about voiding warranty or something if I pushed beyond. Also I know that 38x16 gives me my laden cruising gear 11 at 65" which should be about right for me. 38x16 is also the setup I based my custom frame around with regard to chainstay length and tension adjustability(moveable dropouts), it puts a new chain almost at the start of the adjustment range without need for a halflink.

This is a disc brake setup so I think I worry more about oil in either direction.


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

Now here's a good example of the dangers of considering a trailer, it's got me looking at other tents:-

http://www.vango.co.uk/gb/2-person-tent/15-stelvio-200.html

with panniers I don't think I'd consider 6.6kg but the ability to store the bike is very attractive


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (31 Oct 2014)

We have pretty much settled on 38x17 as being what we are happiest with. Weight wise we never met a single person who could lift my oh's bike and that included all the macho males in eastern Europe! Next time i have to buy parts I may drop down one more combination for me but we also off-road on our bikes so sometimes lowers gears are rather useful! But even with only 2 panniers and rack pack the uk inclines made my oh get off and push his bike up a couple of the passes in the lakes recently ...


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Now here's a good example of the dangers of considering a trailer, it's got me looking at other tents:-
> 
> http://www.vango.co.uk/gb/2-person-tent/15-stelvio-200.html
> 
> with panniers I don't think I'd consider 6.6kg but the ability to store the bike is very attractive


You'll know what kind of rider you are but think carefully where you are in the venn diagram of weight weenie or take the kitchen sink. I discovered, the hard way, that I was more weight weenie and ditched most of my load once but that was some time ago now and I think I've moved more towards the kitchen sink. Get it wrong though and it'll marr your tour. often the best way is to do a shakedown tour.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (31 Oct 2014)

Crackle said:


> You'll know what kind of rider you are but think carefully where you are in the venn diagram of weight weenie or take the kitchen sink. I discovered, the hard way, that I was more weight weenie and ditched most of my load once but that was some time ago now and I think I've moved more towards the kitchen sink. Get it wrong though and it'll marr your tour. often the best way is to do a shakedown tour.


That's what the postal service is for! though I know initially we actually carried too little! Useful things such as spare spokes, spanner, torx screwdriver, pannier spares, trangia multi fuel burner spares all embed up being purchased on route when we found out what needed then, not to mention a spare tyre or two


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> We have pretty much settled on 38x17 as being what we are happiest with. Weight wise we never met a single person who could lift my oh's bike and that included all the macho males in eastern Europe! Next time i have to buy parts I may drop down one more combination for me but we also off-road on our bikes so sometimes lowers gears are rather useful! But even with only 2 panniers and rack pack the uk inclines made my oh get off and push his bike up a couple of the passes in the lakes recently ...



Oh I have no macho issues around getting off and pushing, I've done it before and will again many times. I have no plans to try and lift/carry a fully laden touring bike, I've done it half laden at Reading station, up and over to get to another platform. They were heavy full rear panniers and rackpack on a heavy hub gear bike. But even then all up weight was no more than 70lbs and that was a struggle up and down the stairs.


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

Crackle said:


> You'll know what kind of rider you are but think carefully where you are in the venn diagram of weight weenie or take the kitchen sink. I discovered, the hard way, that I was more weight weenie and ditched most of my load once but that was some time ago now and I think I've moved more towards the kitchen sink. Get it wrong though and it'll marr your tour. often the best way is to do a shakedown tour.



So you reckon the deluxe barbecue grill set with half size gas canister is too much then?


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> So you reckon the deluxe barbecue grill set with half size gas canister is too much then?


Joking aside I have seen people get normal washing up bowls, wooden chopping boards, full chef set of knives, metal cheese graters, colanders and the likes out of the back of their trailers and yes I means cycle trailers!


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## GrumpyGregry (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> Greg, I keep looking at the Yak, or the Ibis, and I'm uncomfortable with the weight restriction compared to the Carry Freedom, the coupling system, the lack of freestanding ability and, on a theoretical aspect the reports of handling effects in particular shimmy and difficulties for out of saddle riding. All of which aren't a concern for the 2 wheel options but then they have the big drawback of not being anywhere near as happy off the beaten track. They also have the two track footprint which won't help on rougher roads.


Nearly all the -ve comments about Yak style trailers come from folk who either haven't used one, haven't used on for any length of time, or couldn't be arsed to put the effort in to learn how to ride with one. Never had a problem honking when towing one. Try and read some blogs (or Adventure Cyclist magazine articles) and you'll see they have a place and work fine in practice.

My fave criticism is one you've captured... the lack of freestanding ability. So just like all my bikes then?


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2014)

MacB said:


> So you reckon the deluxe barbecue grill set with half size gas canister is too much then?


I've seen stranger but if you truly want something like that, it does exist in small form. Whether it's worth the effort is another matter.


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

Crackle said:


> I've seen stranger but if you truly want something like that, it does exist in small form. Whether it's worth the effort is another matter.



nah I think I can rely upon being able to buy my BBQ fix en route


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Nearly all the -ve comments about Yak style trailers come from folk who either haven't used one, haven't used on for any length of time, or couldn't be arsed to put the effort in to learn how to ride with one. Never had a problem honking when towing one. Try and read some blogs (or Adventure Cyclist magazine articles) and you'll see they have a place and work fine in practice.
> My fave criticism is one you've captured... the lack of freestanding ability. So just like all my bikes then?



I suspected as much, for starters lots of the Bob/CF/Burley reviews saying potential negatives begin with the immortal 'I've never used a trailer but'. I have tried two wheel rear trailers and didn't find them a problem on road but they were a pain at the shops, never tried offroad. Actually I thought the Bob could be used as a stand if you jacknifed it, that was one of the pluses in my book. When I mentioned freestanding I meant after removal from the bike.

Overall it remains a toughie In my mind and won't be settled until I've done some experimentation. This will initially focus on a pannier solution as I have so much of the kit already. One thing I want to investigate is front/rear weight split and handling. For example I've done many local shopping trips on the BF Tikit with full size panniers on the front and, as long as I packed the shopping right it's been fine. With lighter loads I've also had no trouble with a single front pannier on it. So I intend trying out all the varieties to see how I feel they ride and handle. I suspect the steering geometry of the bike in question will make a difference which is why I don't think reviews/recommendations will give me my ultimate answer. The frame and the forks were custom so unlikely to find a direct comparison.

Unless any combination creates such bad handling that I fear a sudden demise then I plan on giving each one a 50 mile workout including some Surrey Hills type inclines. I will report back on my results.


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## Tigerbiten (31 Oct 2014)

My bent trike is set up .........
53t/38t double chainrings on a Schlumpf HSD on the front.
A 21 tooth sprocket on my Rohloff built into a 20" wheel.
Try 9.5" to 172" in 24 steps.
I've found this setup works the best for me.
I did send the hub back to Rohloff after two years use to be checked over due to the silly low first gear, it came back with a report saying "no problems found with it".
One downside of my rig is weight wise the trike+trailer+camping gear probably comes in close to 60 kg.
But due to the silly low first gear, as long as I keep traction on the back wheel, I can pedal up anything ........


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

Uh oh, now I'm reading how light can you go type stuff, like this:-

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=Sh&page_id=265760&v=77

I'd never get that light, my bike alone will probably top his all up weight, but it's interesting to note that he gets luggage to sub 20lb quite easily. Best I start in with the spreadsheets


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (31 Oct 2014)

Just remember that the aim is to enjoy the tour, not for it to be a trial by torture... Sometimes it is better to have a full length sleeping mat and get a good night's sleep than it is to save 200g in weight. It is often easier to lose the weight off your self!


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> Just remember that the aim is to enjoy the tour, not for it to be a trial by torture... Sometimes it is better to have a full length sleeping mat and get a good night's sleep than it is to save 200g in weight. It is often easier to lose the weight off your self!



Oh how right you are, I could lose the full touring load in weight and still be on the hefty side. There will definitely be no compromises on sleeping comfort, actually quite like that bit of kit that converts your mat to a chair as well.


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## Crackle (31 Oct 2014)

Google Helinox chairs, there's a thread on them here in T&E as well, including alternatives and the ebay copy version. Cotswold normally have some out you can try.


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## Tigerbiten (31 Oct 2014)

I loose over 15 kg in weight every summer on tour ....... 
The only trouble is I put it back on over winter ......


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## MacB (31 Oct 2014)

Tigerbiten said:


> I loose over 15 kg in weight every summer on tour .......
> The only trouble is I put it back on over winter ......



I could 'cough' perhaps lose something in the region of 20-25kg and still be quite well built, I know this is an open goal for founding peanut gallery members RichP, 3BM and Crax but it does need to be out there


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## GrumpyGregry (31 Oct 2014)

The only thing you have to carry on tour at our time of life, is a debit card, a credit card, some cash, and a change of clothes. And the change of clothes is optional.

As you may guess I'd rather eat worms than have to rely on a "sleeping mat", now there is an oxymoron, for a good night's sleep.


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## MacB (1 Nov 2014)

GrumpyGregry said:


> The only thing you have to carry on tour at our time of life, is a debit card, a credit card, some cash, and a change of clothes. And the change of clothes is optional.
> As you may guess I'd rather eat worms than have to rely on a "sleeping mat", now there is an oxymoron, for a good night's sleep.



well you've got me thinking in a variety of ways and I'm going to order an Alpkit Stingray custom frame bag to give it a try. A rough measure of the triangle gives me 37x56x57 and opting for the 6cm width should give quite a bit of storage space. Two zips and a full length horizontal divider would allow tent poles, pegs and pump to go in top section and all my tools and spares in the bottom. I have a third bottle cage mount under the down tube but I also have proper bottle cage mounts on the forks as well.

I'm now wondering if I'll be able to manage:-

frame bag - tent poles/pegs, tools and spares - especially anything heavy
bar bag - documents and essentials - could also use a light Porteur style rack
bottles - x3 2 on the forks and one under DT
pannier 1 - cook stuff, tent and sleeping stuff - minus poles and pegs could this all fit into one 20l pannier? or would it be better to bungy a drysack with sleeping bag and mat across the top? or in front of the bars?
pannier 2 - clothes and electronics - netbook and kindle not sure on solar power yet as will have the front USB solution which is favouring the Luxus U right now
rack pack - Arkel Tailrider for layers, gloves, waterproofs, food/shopping and any odds and sods

I'm currently guesstimating 20kg of weight out the back including weight of rack and panniers/rackpack - so approx. 16kg of kit


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## psmiffy (1 Nov 2014)

You were doing all right - but it is starting to sound a bit exotic - for 6 months you need to keep it simple


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## MacB (1 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> You were doing all right - but it is starting to sound a bit exotic - for 6 months you need to keep it simple



exotic? ah you mistake me, I actually enjoy this sort of toing and froing, I've always enjoyed making lists and spreadsheets - so I'm positively in heaven with the one I'm putting together, not only costs/prices but weights as well, and yes I'll probably weigh every single item. It's just my peculiarity, I'll be happy to make up a route day by day, won't bat an eyelid at that. But I do need to have my kit settled in my mind, even though I'm prepared to swap stuff out as I go along. I also know that quite a bit may change after a few trial runs.


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## psmiffy (1 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> exotic? ah you mistake me,.


Cool -


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## Crankarm (2 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> exotic? ah you mistake me, I actually enjoy this sort of toing and froing, I've always enjoyed making lists and spreadsheets - so I'm positively in heaven with the one I'm putting together, not only costs/prices but weights as well, and yes I'll probably weigh every single item. It's just my peculiarity, I'll be happy to make up a route day by day, won't bat an eyelid at that. But I do need to have my kit settled in my mind, even though I'm prepared to swap stuff out as I go along. I also know that quite a bit may change after a few trial runs.



We need the input of @willem weight weeny. He'll scrutinise your list to make sure you're not carrying more or heavier than you need.


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## HelenD123 (2 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> I'm now wondering if I'll be able to manage:-
> 
> frame bag - tent poles/pegs, tools and spares - especially anything heavy
> bar bag - documents and essentials - could also use a light Porteur style rack
> ...



No way would I put my sleeping stuff and tent together. They need to be separate for the (not so) rare occasions when the tent gets wet, whether from rain or condensation.


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## psmiffy (2 Nov 2014)

HelenD123 said:


> No way would I put my sleeping stuff and tent together. They need to be separate for the (not so) rare occasions when the tent gets wet, whether from rain or condensation.



Top Tip!


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

HelenD123 said:


> No way would I put my sleeping stuff and tent together. They need to be separate for the (not so) rare occasions when the tent gets wet, whether from rain or condensation.



ah, that gives me that slapped round the face by a wet kipper feeling...but in a good way


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> Cool -



Keep it simple I've read your journal and in many ways your style of touring sounds exactly what I intend. But that's one serious amount of baggage you carry.


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

How about tent across bars, minus pegs and poles, in a dry bag setup like this:-

https://www.revelatedesigns.com/index.cfm/store.catalog/Handle-Bar/Sweetroll

plenty of other similar options and maybe ends could be opened to allow evapouration/drying as required? Smartphone for GPS etc in a waterproof handlebar bracket hooked up to the Luxos U. Need to make sure that the Sweetroll style solution didn't interfere with fork crown mounted light. The weight of tent sans pegs and poles, even wet, shouldn't be more than a large bar bag. But as long as it worked with a dry tent that would be fine, could always be bungied out back when wet if that was too heavy.

I am still seriously considering the Vango Stelvio 200 despite the 6.6kg weight, the height and large porch area are especially attractive. So though I'm looking at trimming weight it may only be to ensure that I can carry this tent.


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## theclaud (2 Nov 2014)

When you thinking of setting off, MacB? I have a carry freedom y-frame you can borrow for a test if you like. Not sure I can spare it for the tour itself, as I have no other means of transporting large quantities of beer...


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## Crackle (2 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> I am still seriously considering the Vango Stelvio 200 despite the 6.6kg weight, the height and large porch area are especially attractive. So though I'm looking at trimming weight it may only be to ensure that I can carry this tent.



Never mind the weight but a tent that size will be more awkward to pitch, more susceptible to bad weather and is hardly stealthy if you need it to be and that's before you get to quality and whether it's good enough to be used for extensive touring rather than the odd summer wknd on the motorbike.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (2 Nov 2014)

If you are looking to simply hide or cover the bike, consider a tarp. They will double as somewhere to sit under to cook if the weather is bad (cooking in the tent is not a great move because of all sorts of issues not least of all carbon monoxide and condensation...) and can be used to cover the bike when needed.


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

theclaud said:


> When you thinking of setting off, MacB? I have a carry freedom y-frame you can borrow for a test if you like. Not sure I can spare it for the tour itself, as I have no other means of transporting large quantities of beer...



Ta, will take you up on that if need be, that's one of the trailers I have tried but not on my own bike. Right now going lighter is meaning I'm speccing out minus trailer, the frame bag, when it arrives, will be the key influence on my final decision.

Set off will be next year possibly Apri/May, could be earlier but no later.


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> If you are looking to simply hide or cover the bike, consider a tarp. They will double as somewhere to sit under to cook if the weather is bad (cooking in the tent is not a great move because of all sorts of issues not least of all carbon monoxide and condensation...) and can be used to cover the bike when needed.



Hmmm, had already decided I would need a tarp, on the tent front the other contenders are:- MSR Hubba and the Nallo 3GT, the Nallo looks the easiest to put up and keep the important bits dry.

I think the Stelvio idea is only the luxury idea, able to work/cook and sit up inside but it's a lot of weight to carry. Probably easier just to take a lodge/hotel if I feel the need.


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## psmiffy (2 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> Never mind the weight but a tent that size will be more awkward to pitch, more susceptible to bad weather and is hardly stealthy if you need it to be and that's before you get to quality and whether it's good enough to be used for extensive touring rather than the odd summer wknd on the motorbike.



yup - even by my standards a monster of a tent - could not see it surviving 6months - waking up wondering whether the tent is going to last the night is not a good feeling - for the last ten years ive had the facility to put the bike in the tent - only done it twice - once when i camped in a rather open car park and there was nothing to attach the bike to - and the second time in an exposed layby where I was cowering and was worried that I wouldnt be able to find the bike in the morning in the snow.



SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> If you are looking to simply hide or cover the bike, consider a tarp. They will double as somewhere to sit under to cook if the weather is bad (cooking in the tent is not a great move because of all sorts of issues not least of all carbon monoxide and condensation...) and can be used to cover the bike when needed.



I have always cooked in the tent - chosen so that with two doors and a very large vestible it was well ventilated - never had problems with condensation - but yes if you dont take precautions the CO thing can be nasty - there was a whole spate of deaths as I recall


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## psmiffy (2 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> How about tent across bars, minus pegs and poles, in a dry bag setup like this:-
> 
> https://www.revelatedesigns.com/index.cfm/store.catalog/Handle-Bar/Sweetroll
> 
> plenty of other similar options and maybe ends could be opened to allow evapouration/drying as required? Smartphone for GPS etc in a waterproof handlebar bracket hooked up to the Luxos U. Need to make sure that the Sweetroll style solution didn't interfere with fork crown mounted light. The weight of tent sans pegs and poles, even wet, shouldn't be more than a large bar bag. But as long as it worked with a dry tent that would be fine, could always be bungied out back when wet if that was too heavy.



If it works for you then why not - however - in quite a lot of kms Ive never seen a setup like that - check out fully loaded tourers and you will find there is a common theme - ditto work out the ratio of pannier to trailer setups

As to separating the tent into bits - personally all the tents I have ever bought come in a bag (these days the manufactures seem to be a bit more generous with the dimensions of the bags and it is possible to put the tent back in the bag) - my tent lives on the rear rack - when I come to camp I want the tent up as quickly as possible - 50% of the time its going to be dark soon, its going to rain or it is raining - everything together when I shake it out of the bag - Ive no need to open any other bags - The tent is always the last thing to be packed - everything else gets packed in the protection of the tent

Personally I never worry about the tent outer being wet - it is nice if it is dry but it is designed to be wet - the inner is another story but Im well practiced in getting the tent down in the rain without it getting wet - just fold it so only the groundsheet is exposed - not a big worry for me if the inner does get a bit damp - tent being big enough and well ventilated dries very quickly.


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## snorri (2 Nov 2014)

What psmiffy said regarding tent, pegs, etc all in one bag, and not on the ' bars . The 'bars are crowded enough with computer, gps, bell, hands
I'll never go camping again without my Exped Synmat http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/synmat-ul-7-m
I used to be perfectly comfortable on a cheapo foam mat, but on cooler nights it failed to insulate me from the cold ground. The Exped mat provides insulation and rolls up into a very compact package.
You did say money would not be an issue in which case I would go minimal on the cooking equipment you carry and eat out (a lot!). Eating out saves you time buying and preparing ingredients and washing up afterwards, going indoors for a meal provides a relaxing change after being exposed to the weather all day, even when the weather is fine. You also have a comfortable seat for an hour with a table for writing up notes etc. and often an opportunity for some casual chat with the locals. I happily cook for myself at home but just don't see any thing to commend cooking over a stove with minimal equipment, particularly after a full day in the saddle.


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

snorri said:


> You did say money would not be an issue in which case I would go minimal on the cooking equipment you carry and eat out (a lot!). Eating out saves you time buying and preparing ingredients and washing up afterwards, going indoors for a meal provides a relaxing change after being exposed to the weather all day, even when the weather is fine. You also have a comfortable seat for an hour with a table for writing up notes etc. and often an opportunity for some casual chat with the locals. I happily cook for myself at home but just don't see any thing to commend cooking over a stove with minimal equipment, particularly after a full day in the saddle.



Yep, coming round to that thought myself, happy to rustle something up, but as I don't drink hot drinks, well tea and coffee I will have a hot chocolate once in a while just never made one, too much cooking stuff would be a waste. At the moment I've got an allowance of 2kg in for cooking and cutlery. I'm also not averse to the idea of a longer early cycle, stopping for a meal, shorter trip to campsite/accommodation and then a more liquid/snack evening.

At the moment I've just got a weight allowance in for sleeping stuff, 2.5kg to cover bag, mat and liner - though I quite like the idea of some silk jammies instead of a liner.

Overall I'm currently around 15kg for bike including rear rack, mudguards and dynamo lights but excluding luggage, and 25kg for kit including bags, electrics, chargers and mounts.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (2 Nov 2014)

@MacB we were fortunate enough to be able to view the Nallo 3GT and Nammatj 3GT side by side. We were set on the Nallo right up until we saw it along side the Nammatj. The Nallo had a number of disadvantages over the Nammatj, not least of all the fact that even I could not sit up in it along its entire length (and I am only 5 foot 6), and the fact that the poles have sleeve specific, so the orange one has to go in the orange hole... something the Nammatj does not have an issue with and when you are putting up the tent in the wind, wet and rain, you will be exceptionally grateful for any pole working in any sleeve. There were also a number of other issues, though I think the other main one we disliked has possibly been resolved on new models and that was that the ventilation at the foot end of the tent, could not be adjusted from within the tent - on the Nammatj it can be. Just something to bear in mind if weight is not a huge issue. There was also very little difference in the weight of the Nammatj 2GT and the Nammatj 3GT especially given the 5cm extra head room that the 3GT had over the 2GT (or was it 10cm, I can't remember now) which if you are around the 6foot height mark you will find very useful!


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## jay clock (2 Nov 2014)

rich p said:


> Incidentally, I know you haven't got into the fine detail of kit yet but I'd recommend a chair of some sort. I use a lightweight 3-legged stool but for a fat bastard larger person like yourself you may be better off with a better quality chair.
> @Dave Davenport and @jay clock may have better suggestions.​


I am on tour in Andalusia touring at present and spent the afternoon in my Alite Mantis chair. Fantastic bit of kit


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## MacB (2 Nov 2014)

jay clock said:


> I am on tour in Andalusia touring at present and spent the afternoon in my Alite Mantis chair. Fantastic bit of kit



Hmmm, looks identical to the Helinox Chair One that I've already added to my kit list. I'm hoping that it would also be useable roadside/lunchtime when required. Setup looks the same on both, just rig up the frame and then slot/stretch the mesh over the top, looked to be about 30 seconds of effort to me.


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## Crankarm (2 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Hmmm, looks identical to the Helinox Chair One that I've already added to my kit list. I'm hoping that it would also be useable roadside/lunchtime when required. Setup looks the same on both, just rig up the frame and then slot/stretch the mesh over the top, looked to be about 30 seconds of effort to me.



@MacB the Alite Mantis that JayClock is on about is better than a Helinox - more back support, lighter and more compact packed size, but it is more expensive though, but worth the extra expense imho. I have one. I have tried both along side each other and the Mantis is better.


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## MacB (3 Nov 2014)

Well @snorri got me thinking further last night about tents, if conditions are really carp then I'm most likely to take a hotel. Also the first plan is Southern Europe through the Summer months. Whether I decide to carry on through Winter, or do the Northern bit the following Summer, I can always buy a more suitable tent then. So I've been looking at lighter weight options and ease of pitch, recommendations, etc. I am finding the self supporting dome style more attractive for pitching and internal headroom.

Ultralight - top of range/price seem to be the MSR Hubba Hubba NX or the Big Agnes Copper Spur UL2 - both sub 2kg even when you add in footprint etc - but they are both white and I would worry on durability

Light - MSR Hubba Hubba HP, a little heavier but has a green fly, then lots of options in the 2.5-3.5kg range

Also security, wild camping is self explanatory if I ever do any but campsites re bikes, tent and kit? I'm thinking about when going for a meal etc but also if I did any multi day stays to do some touristy stuff? Clearly valuables would stay with me but I don't really want to be carrying a tone of weight in locks.


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## xilios (3 Nov 2014)

Have you considered a tunnel tent? Check this one out. http://www.jack-wolfskin.co.uk/time-tunnel-ii-rt/3001122-4410.html also look at the video. The main advantage is in the rain you can put up the outer tent first than the ground sheet and once inside you can put up the inner tent nice and dry. It's what we do and has worked perfect.


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## Crackle (3 Nov 2014)

Tent durability, especially on better tents, is probably better than you think. A good tent will last, will be repairable and will be durable in the sense that it will erect easily, something you'll be bloody grateful for in bad weather when you're knackered and will also shed that bad weather. I reckon the worst thing to be in in a tent is high wind. You really want a tent that'll cope with that, especially as you are probably going to rely on this in remoter parts where you can't get other accommodation. 

Geodesics are the most stable and will pitch in most terrains because they are self-standing but the compromise is they normally pitch inner first and weigh more compared to tunnels. Which you go for is personal preference. I camp mostly in the UK, so prefer tunnels because they pitch outer first in the all too frequent rain, if I was doing something like this I may go geodesic.

I've never found a problem finding somewhere to leave gear or bike, nor had a problem leaving it on a campsite. I do take a good u-lock though, again a personal choice. Although I did leave my keys on the ground in France once and ended up carrying a useless lock around for two weeks!


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## MacB (3 Nov 2014)

xilios said:


> Have you considered a tunnel tent? Check this one out. http://www.jack-wolfskin.co.uk/time-tunnel-ii-rt/3001122-4410.html also look at the video. The main advantage is in the rain you can put up the outer tent first than the ground sheet and once inside you can put up the inner tent nice and dry. It's what we do and has worked perfect.



Yep there are a few attractive options especially the ones where inner and outer pitch together. But the freestanding dome style I'm looking at, or at least the MSR and Big Agnes ones can be pitched outer first. It's actually one of the standard pitch options using just fly and footprint for hot conditions. The inners clip to the poles rather than slide through sleeves.


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## MacB (3 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> I've never found a problem finding somewhere to leave gear or bike, nor had a problem leaving it on a campsite. I do take a good u-lock though, again a personal choice. Although I did leave my keys on the ground in France once and ended up carrying a useless lock around for two weeks!



As per previous post the wet pitch was a concern until I realised outer could be pitched first, still be some mopping of footprint I suppose. But how often will I be forced to camp and not able to get a 10 minute window to erect tent?

Locks I'm thinking this might work quite well:-

https://tigrlock.com/product/

The wider one either standard or long - nothing will be perfect but this wouldn't interfere with any of my luggage and puts the weight on the frame, about 1kg. I might throw in a cheapo alarmed padlock with thin cable as well.


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## Crackle (3 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Locks I'm thinking this might work quite well:-
> 
> https://tigrlock.com/product/
> 
> The wider one either standard or long - nothing will be perfect but this wouldn't interfere with any of my luggage and puts the weight on the frame, about 1kg. I might throw in a cheapo alarmed padlock with thin cable as well.



A titanium lock!!

The only time I ever worried about pannier contents was when I went into a caff and the bike was out of sight. My old panniers were/are zip closing so I used a small padlock to lock the zip to the carrier and stop the opportunist thief. It may require some thought but you could probably devise a simple deterrent for any pannier system.


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## psmiffy (3 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> A titanium lock!!
> 
> The only time I ever worried about pannier contents was when I went into a caff and the bike was out of sight. My old panniers were/are zip closing so I used a small padlock to lock the zip to the carrier and stop the opportunist thief. It may require some thought but you could probably devise a simple deterrent for any pannier system.



Will it go round a tree?


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## MacB (3 Nov 2014)

What I really need is a travelling companion...a sort of butler on wheels...who can take car of all of the tedious daily stuff leaving me free to cycle, eat and drink.


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## threebikesmcginty (3 Nov 2014)




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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (3 Nov 2014)

I have found with the Nammatj 3GT that I can get a bike into the extension with it lying down if needed. If that helps you.
But our experience has been that you would not be leaving kit on the site if you did not feel safe, so it is usually not an issue.
that said, we carry 2 D locks and a spiral cable lock between the 2 of us.


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## psmiffy (4 Nov 2014)

Is it too late to consider this?


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## MacB (4 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> Is it too late to consider this?



I don't think so, I know you're getting on a bit but why not, I know many would think the above looks ridiculous but, having seen pics of you set up for touring, I don't think appearances will be an issue


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## psmiffy (4 Nov 2014)

Not me somehow  - posted it as an example of the extreme (and whatever my opinion on his sanity is - im well impressed) - no right way - if you want something enough its possible - everything is a trade off
(The geezer did a trans-am followed by west coat finishing in panama)


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## rich p (4 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> west coat finishing in panama


I wore a Rapha jacket and a homburg


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## HelenD123 (4 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> ah, that gives me that slapped round the face by a wet kipper feeling...but in a good way


Oops, my husband said my reply was rather blunt. Better a wet kipper than a wet sleeping bag though


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## MacB (4 Nov 2014)

HelenD123 said:


> Oops, my husband said my reply was rather blunt. Better a wet kipper than a wet sleeping bag though



Hey, I'm the one that, without someone pointing out the obvious, could well have been dumb enough to learn the hard way.....I much prefer the wet fish effect on a forum


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## rich p (5 Nov 2014)

7 bloody pages and he isn't even going till next year! We're either a very helpful bunch or keen that he doesn't change his mind!


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## snorri (5 Nov 2014)

rich p said:


> 7 bloody pages and he isn't even going till next year! We're either a very helpful bunch or keen that he doesn't change his mind!


I was having similar thoughts but was going to wait until we reached Page 8 before insisting he set a firm departure date and confirmed it with a ferry or flight booking reference.


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

Okay, stage 1 will be home to Brighton where @rich p will warmly accommodate me


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## Crackle (5 Nov 2014)

rich p said:


> 7 bloody pages and he isn't even going till next year! We're either a very helpful bunch or keen that he doesn't change his mind!


Did you not get the pm. You're dangerously close to going off message.


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## rich p (5 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Okay, stage 1 will be home to Brighton where @rich p will warmly accommodate me


 CC launch party at my gaff then!


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

On a slightly more serious note when you see weight claims around what's taken on tour are they counting everything? For example I get to 12kg before I've really packed anything:-

Rear panniers - 1.8kg
Rear rack - 1kg
Frame Bag - 600g
Waterproof stuff sack - 650
Bar bag - 400g
Bum bag wallet - 700g when full
3 x Water bottles and cages - 2.4kg full obviously
Tent, sleeping bag and mat - 4.3kg

are people excluding rack, bag and water weights when they calculate?


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Nov 2014)

I find it more sensible to work on what can I live without and is it worth saving 200grams when that is less than the weight of a cup of coffee... 

When you are going out for a while as you are planning to do, you need one or two little luxuries and more durable kit that will last.


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> I find it more sensible to work on what can I live without and is it worth saving 200grams when that is less than the weight of a cup of coffee...
> 
> When you are going out for a while as you are planning to do, you need one or two little luxuries and more durable kit that will last.


 
I don't disagree it's more just confusion on my part, I see these claims about touring with only 10kg yet they have panniers, racks, water, tents, bags etc and the math just doesn't stack up for me. Just having 4 Ortliebs is going to run you about 3.5kg excluding the racks themselves. I'm assuming people do count these bits when they're working our front/rear distribution


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Nov 2014)

I don't think the count the racks. For me that usually comes under the bike weight. I think a lot of people also don't count the weight of water carried and probably don't taken into account daily food and snacks or the likes of say a litre of milk. 

We personally differentiated the difference with the saying ' full battle weight '. This was enough clean water for 2 of us the camp wild overnight where water was not available and not likely to be available until well into the next day. 

But I know what you mean and I also have my doubts about some of the weight claims!


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## psmiffy (5 Nov 2014)

I do not bother with working out what it all weighs beforehand - I just work out what I want  to take - put it all on the bed - pack it - if it fits in the panniers thats cool - and what I take apart from clothes is pretty standard - one pannier - emphasis for clothes comes down to where im going and in what month - 1 rear panniers full - front panniers half full to leave room for consumables - If I can ride it up a 5-10% hill at around 400m up/hour then im happy - "if it goes up it goes" 

Weight on a bike is really no big deal - The only time ive ever had problems is when Ive had to lift it - stupidly left myself at the bottom of stairs or needed to board a Continental style train - or go down the Liverpool St escalator 

(I do however have a packing list with all the weights on for working out the overall weight for flying - but that is just a transit weight - work out what I can easily buy on landing and will not be distraught to bin on the way home)

I wonder about those weight claims - in the evening ive often got more weight in liquid than some of the totals


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

Well I'm looking at bout 45kg in total, 17kg for the bike including lights, rack and mudguards then 28kg kit including 3 full water bottles and the weight of the various bags and panniers. If I ignore the water and count the bags etc as part of the bike then I'm still looking at 21kg of luggage.

4.5kg - tent and sleeping stuff and that's a pretty darn light tent
2.5kg - electrics, smartphone with bracket, tablet, solar panel, MP3, headtorch and kindle, plus cables/chargers(though sharing these where possible)
1kg - cooking, stove, pots and pan, cutlery, herbs, salt and gas canister
1kg - wash kit including an Ortlieb folding bowl at 400g
1kg - folding chair, not essential but what the hell
3kg - tools and spare parts, half of this number is just a spare tire and spare tubes
7kg - clothes and shoes - though I suppose this includes what I'd be wearing at any given time and it includes waterproofs, hats, gloves etc
1kg - emergency rations and trail food

Some of the above allowances are quite generous and I know the chair isn't an essential but I struggle to see what can really be cut without compromising on comfort. I could also see the numbers climbing if I need to make use of the additional water bladder or drysack for extra food.


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## psmiffy (5 Nov 2014)

I thought i would never do this - criticise a packing list 
ditch the tyre - start on decent ones - tyres are easy to buy in Europe


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> I wonder about those weight claims - in the evening ive often got more weight in liquid than some of the totals



I think that's what had me confused as the weight of water is the easiest to work it, it doesn't change - I'm not a weight weenie but I was curious as I thought some of the weights claimed were remarkably low so I was curious what I could work out on a spreadsheet. Now my numbers are probably too generous in the clothes dept for some of them but the other kit I've specced includes a lot of high end, very pricey, ultralightweight gear.

I can only guess that they ignore the weights of the racks, the bags themselves, the clothes they are wearing and the water they are carrying.

I'm not worried about the bike taking the weight the frame is specced as a touring 29er but is also beefed up enough to take 120mm forks, so it should handle the abuse comfortably...famous last words.

My only weight goal really is I'd like to keep the all up weight to 50kg, including bike, or less, as I know I can carry that ok if need be


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> I thought i would never do this - criticise a packing list
> ditch the tyre - start on decent ones - tyres are easy to buy in Europe



 fair point but it's only 600g a folding emergency one

nothing's final and my actual packing plan will be similar to yours, lay it out and see what fits and trim accordingly


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Nov 2014)

Do yourself a trade between now and seeing out. Every kg you lose in weight allow yourself 1/2kg 'extra' capacity or else don't worry about it.

I know I can not lift my bike even with just 2 rear panniers and rack pack travelling as light as I can when camping (I have to do all my own cooking being allergic to dairy) and I like to carry a book as well, so I usually try to lose a few kgs off me in the weeks leading up to a tour


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## Crackle (5 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> I thought i would never do this - criticise a packing list
> ditch the tyre - start on decent ones - tyres are easy to buy in Europe


He's hoping to lose the spare tyre on tour.


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## MacB (5 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> He's hoping to lose the spare tyre on tour.



I know it's a 29er but even that won't take that big a tyre


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## Dayvo (6 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Still stuck on the pannier/trailer debate...thanks @GrumpyGregry .....and I've decided to actually go down the route of buying the kit and then seeing how it fits in either option.
> 
> Some of the trailer negatives don't apply. in particular getting them on off transport, but the ability to ride where you want is a consideration for the two wheeled options.



As I've mentioned on this forum before, I started a 3-month tour from Nordkapp to Gibraltar with a BOB Yak. On the very first day having just started, I got to about 40kph and the bike developed a wobble which I couldn't control. I was thrown, landed on my head which shattered my helmet and I broke my left collarbone (no other injuries). After a month's rehabilitation, I re-started in southern Sweden on a new bike and panniers. 

I will always use panniers in future: no trailers for me. But, of course, there are a lot of happy trailer users around.


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## steveindenmark (6 Nov 2014)

First of all, I cannot envisage how much gear you intend to take to warrant a trailer. I take panniers all the time. I would research your tent, mat and, sleeping bag as that is what I find takes the most space. Clothing, take less than more as you can always find cheap gesr on the way.

just my opinion


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## rich p (6 Nov 2014)

I'm with smiffy on this in theory apart from the fact I have never weighed my bike or kit.
I pack the bare minimum, as I see it, then fit it into the front and rear panniers. If there is some space left over don't be tempted to fill it with stuff you didn't originally deem necessary.


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## andym (6 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Well I'm looking at bout 45kg in total, 17kg for the bike including lights, rack and mudguards then 28kg kit including 3 full water bottles and the weight of the various bags and panniers. If I ignore the water and count the bags etc as part of the bike then I'm still looking at 21kg of luggage.
> 
> 4.5kg - tent and sleeping stuff and that's a pretty darn light tent



You could get your sleeping kit down to 1225g eg:

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/a100-ultralight-camping-sleeping-mat-blue-id_8029334.html
http://www.decathlon.co.uk/15-light-hiking-sleeping-bag-left-blue-id_8242015.html
http://www.decathlon.co.uk/mummy-silk-liner-for-sleeping-bag-white-id_8242798.html

and a tent that weighs less than 2kgs. (I'm assuming that you'll also have a decent set of thermals and a down jacket you can wear at night for sleeping when it's cold).



MacB said:


> 2.5kg - electrics, smartphone with bracket, tablet, solar panel, MP3, headtorch and kindle, plus cables/chargers(though sharing these where possible)



You can get your devices to double up - eg your phone will play MP3s, and you can read ebooks on a tablet (OK it consumes power faster than a Kindle). Do you need a smartphone and a tablet - as opposed to a tablet and a basic phone? 

You can get chargers with multi-tips so you only need one charger.

You won't power all of that with a solar panel. Personally I wouldn't bother. Although I would carry a euro-standard adapter you use at campsites. 



MacB said:


> 7kg - clothes and shoes - though I suppose this includes what I'd be wearing at any given time and it includes waterproofs, hats, gloves etc



You can cut that if you work at it. The trick is to use layers - for extra flexibility. You only need one set of spare clothes plus thermals. Shop around for a pair of light shoes you can use off the bike - not easy but do-able. Be prepared to invest in teh best quality stuff - if you're travelling for several months you can justify it.

Tyres. What smiffy says: get a pair of whatever Schwalbe are calling their extra-durable tyres at the moment. Swap front and back mid tour they should last you unless you do a really big mileage. Carry a Park Tools Emergency Tyre Boot.


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## psmiffy (6 Nov 2014)

andym said:


> Tyres. What smiffy says: get a pair of whatever Schwalbe are calling their extra-durable tyres at the moment. Swap front and back mid tour they should last you unless you do a really big mileage. Carry a Park Tools Emergency Tyre Boot.



I didn't realise the OP was using a 29er


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## andym (6 Nov 2014)

I think it is worth spending time researching equipment options. Most people refine their equipment choices over several short trips, but in your case you are going to be stuck with your equipment choices for a long trip. There's always Decathlon, but in general if you're looking for specialist lightweight gear it's best to get it here. I don't know what your touring experience is, but it's worth thinking about whether you could do a short shakedown trip to see how it all works. After a few hills you might be less likely to say 'what the hell' about a camping chair (or after sitting on wet ground you might decide it's something you can't live without). 



psmiffy said:


> I didn't realise the OP was using a 29er



¿Que? (Where's the smiley for that went *way* over my head?)


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## psmiffy (6 Nov 2014)

andym said:


> ¿Que? (Where's the smiley for that went *way* over my head?)


My experience in buying tyres on the road on the one occasion that I could not repair an outer was that it is hobsons choice - I suspect that outside of city centre specialist shops* a suitable 29er tyre might be difficult to come by - therefore my criticism was somewhat flawed (the way over my head smilie has a pigeon in it )

*giving city centre specialist shops the benefit of the doubt


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## Crackle (6 Nov 2014)

29er is 700c. I reckon he could manage if push came to shove, so long as he didn't have to shove it too far.

I've never weighed my kit but I've never needed too. I also don't have suitable bike camping kit because i prefer not to camp, so when I do I have a rack full of plastic bags with sleeping bags and mats in. Not much of a weight penalty to it but money buys smaller kit as well as better.


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## psmiffy (6 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> 29er is 700c. I reckon he could manage if push came to shove, so long as he didn't have to shove it too far.


my ignorance of the 29er is resolved - so Im not flawed after all  - awaits response from Mr P 

(I was lucky I pushed for about an hour to a campsite - then an hours walk to the nearest town and back - was easier when the rim on my rear wheel detached - just took tyre off and rode on the bare rim for 25k)

It is prudent tho to have within reason spares for things that may be a bit uncommon in bike shops - I use magura hydraulic rim brakes - generally have 4 sets in lining of one of my rear panniers


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## Ticktockmy (6 Nov 2014)

Seems to me this thread is now just going round and round in circles, for the OP unfortunately it does not matter how much information we post on here to assist him in his planned endeavours, at the end of the day his best bet is to load the bike up with all the kit and go for a practise ride for a few days, this allow him to get a feel of things.


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## fimm (6 Nov 2014)

On the subject of chairs, I have something a bit like this:
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/seating/chair-kits/trekker-chair-kit/product
which I carry on backpacking trips (and carrying all your kit over Munros turns you into a serious weight weenie... in my case, I find sitting on the ground so uncomfortable that I prefer to take the weight penalty and carry the chair kit).


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## snorri (6 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Electronics will continue to haunt me -


Yeah, electronics have been the bane of the 21st century cycle tourist.
How did they manage before?
Food for thought?


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## theclaud (6 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> - I'm not a weight weenie



No sh*t


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## MacB (6 Nov 2014)

snorri said:


> Yeah, electronics have been the bane of the 21st century cycle tourist.
> How did they manage before?
> Food for thought?



most definitely food for thought, as @andym points out I have duplication in the electronics...also, which will be a huge relief to some of you, I have no intention of a fancy blog, book or a gazillion photos. Sacrilege as it may seem to some I can quite happily travel and take no photos whatsoever, I quite often forget a camera. I've also read quite a few of the CGOAB blogs now and there is a repetitive theme of searching for charge points and making sure the 'essential' daily tasks of photo and blog updates are done.

I did a quick list earlier of all the options and realised that the most essential for me is the Kindle, I know that the other options can all act as readers but there's a marked difference in battery life. However I do have a Nexus 7, as well as a Kindle, and have read quite a few books on that and found it perfectly fine. I don't have a smartphone having changed to a really cheap basic clamshell as I found the smartphone I did have, a Nokia 925, was great at everything but phone calls.

I think, though it's hard to verify, that a Luxos U would be able to keep charged a Kindle, 7" tablet and phone/smartphone or any combination of those three. If it can then a Nexus/Kindle/Basic phone combo seems to cover all the bases for me.


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## MacB (6 Nov 2014)

theclaud said:


> No sh*t



I believe you missed out the Sherlock there


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## Pale Rider (6 Nov 2014)

You appear to be wavering between lots of panniers and a trailer.

How about a cargo bike?

This one is steel, ideal for touring in far flung places, and the double length load deck would make mounting your stuff a doddle.

You could probably track down a Rohloff one, but there's something to be said for the wider range of a mountain triple.

Derailleurs can always be bodged/repaired/replaced wherever you are.

http://yubabikes.com/cargo-bikes/mundo/#!prettyPhoto


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## MacB (6 Nov 2014)

Pale Rider said:


> You appear to be wavering between lots of panniers and a trailer.
> 
> How about a cargo bike?
> 
> ...



 I think I can safely say that I won't be going cargo bike, I did try a spin round the block yesterday with 5kg strapped to the handlebars and I didn't find any issue with the handling, and that's nearly double the weight I envisage having if I go down the Sweetroll option:-

https://www.revelatedesigns.com/index.cfm/store.catalog/Handle-Bar/Sweetroll

next step is to mock up a tube the same sort of size to see how I'm going to solve the cabling issues and whether it will still allow for a fork crown mounted light. Though the Sweetroll comes with spacers to push it away from the bars allowing tight cable runs that would seem to work best with flat bars, plus Rohloff cables are more challenging. As I use Mary bars then the cables exit more forwards and it will probably make more sense to lengthen the cables and have them go round and under the front of the bag, avoiding sharp kinks. Loading unloading can be by entire removal via bracket or just using the side access, so it can be fitted snugly and left on. It will accommodate any of the tents I've been looking at.

This may be overthinking but I've ordered bits before that haven't worked as I hoped so I'm trying to assess each as fully as possible before committing the dosh. Frame bag is on order and should be here next week and I hope to order the Sweetroll next week. My actual camping dry runs are going to begin in December.


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## Crackle (7 Nov 2014)

I'm not really sure why you'd favour a Sweetroll over a conventional handlebar bag. I see their use more for off road tours when a handlebar bag and mounts just wouldn't take the abuse. In all ways a conventional handlebar bag is preferable for ease of use, packing, taking on and off the bike and hanging maps and lights off. I'd only consider a sweetroll or similar for a rough tour.


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## MacB (7 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> I'm not really sure why you'd favour a Sweetroll over a conventional handlebar bag. I see their use more for off road tours when a handlebar bag and mounts just wouldn't take the abuse. In all ways a conventional handlebar bag is preferable for ease of use, packing, taking on and off the bike and hanging maps and lights off. I'd only consider a sweetroll or similar for a rough tour.



Which handlebar bags can you put a tent in? I also want the ability to offroad possibly using points I like as basecamps. With tent gone the Sweetroll would take my various clothing options for a ride, tools and spares would be in frame bag and water on the forks.


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## Crackle (7 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Which handlebar bags can you put a tent in? I also want the ability to offroad possibly using points I like as basecamps. With tent gone the Sweetroll would take my various clothing options for a ride, tools and spares would be in frame bag and water on the forks.


OK, I suppose there's more than one way to do it but the thought of stuffing a wet tent into a relatively small bag and then hanging it's sodden weight off my bars does not appeal to me but I accept it may work better for you and your plans.


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## rich p (7 Nov 2014)

psmiffy said:


> awaits response from Mr P


No comment


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## MacB (7 Nov 2014)

Crackle said:


> OK, I suppose there's more than one way to do it but the thought of stuffing a wet tent into a relatively small bag and then hanging it's sodden weight off my bars does not appeal to me but I accept it may work better for you and your plans.



No doubt I'm missing some thing but I don't get it, unless you're just referring to the packed tents location? Otherwise I'd have thought having to stuff a wet tent into a small bag was just part of the packing process. This isn't cast in stone, the bar bag could take sleeping bag and mat and the tent go elsewhere. Or the tent could go elsewhere when wet and bar bag when dry.

Anyway back on tents as I've mocked up some heights etc in the garage and some of my options aren't really going to meet my comfort needs. So I was nosing at this style:-

http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/shelters-1/WF106.html

lots of other similar options but some of the others have no porch area so it's straight in to main inner. The main lack I can see is the ability to pitch standalone but there's the big upside of being able to sit properly and in a chair.


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## Bodhbh (7 Nov 2014)

Here's my opinion - the thing about a tent is it's just lumpen weight and it can get lashed anyplace on the bike it'll fit. The handlebars are an option, but why waste such a handy luggage slot on lumpen weight?

A barbag takes your high utility items - maps/camera/guidebooks/penknife/phone/notebook/whatever else, and on the bars it's all immediately to hand. No opening things, dismounting, undoing straps, reaching round, rummaging thru gear - you stop your bike, pop a press-stud open and it's all there in front of you. You want to go for a walk or grab a coffee with your stuff, push a clip and you're gone.

Personally, I've found them pretty robust off-road (ortlieb barbag + ortlieb or klickfix mount). I've never had one fail or bounce out the bracket, although you have to be careful about delicate contents (i.e. scratched glasses, burst drinks cans, liquidised fruit, mashed sarnies). And if you're fully loaded, I'm pretty sure something else will bounce off or fail first.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (7 Nov 2014)

Bodhbh said:


> Personally, I've found them pretty robust off-road (ortlieb barbag + ortlieb or klickfix mount). I've never had one fail or bounce out the bracket, although you have to be careful about delicate contents


Same here and my ortlieb barbag is on one of the extenders to hold it out of the way of my rohloff hear cables and I am not known for not cramming as much in their as possible (including boxes of raw eggs) or for staying on tarmac... I don't however take mine off the bike, but keep a cotton bag inside it which I just lift out, saves fighting with that damned lock!


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## MacB (7 Nov 2014)

Bodhbh said:


> Here's my opinion - the thing about a tent is it's just lumpen weight and it can get lashed anyplace on the bike it'll fit. The handlebars are an option, but why waste such a handy luggage slot on lumpen weight?
> 
> A barbag takes your high utility items - maps/camera/guidebooks/penknife/phone/notebook/whatever else, and on the bars it's all immediately to hand. No opening things, dismounting, undoing straps, reaching round, rummaging thru gear - you stop your bike, pop a press-stud open and it's all there in front of you. You want to go for a walk or grab a coffee with your stuff, push a clip and you're gone.
> 
> Personally, I've found them pretty robust off-road (ortlieb barbag + ortlieb or klickfix mount). I've never had one fail or bounce out the bracket, although you have to be careful about delicate contents (i.e. scratched glasses, burst drinks cans, liquidised fruit, mashed sarnies). And if you're fully loaded, I'm pretty sure something else will bounce off or fail first.



Nothing to argue with there but I had planned on a small bar bag buckled to the top of the Sweetroll. Probably the Ortlieb Hip/Bum bag and that would be my take with me bag when leaving the bike. As far as I can tell the biggest use of the larger handlebar bags is for cameras and I won't have one, well just whatever the phone has inbuilt. It will take wallet, passport, swiss army knife and any other small essentials. The frame bag will have a map pocket on the side able to take a large map.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (7 Nov 2014)

We personally never kept our main wallets or passports in the barbags simply for security reasons. Photocopies of the passports yes, but the actual passport was safely and snugly stowed away at the bottom of a waterproof bag inside the zip pocket of the rear panniers which when you have the ortlieb rackpack that clips into the classic rollers makes them pretty secure against any casual attempt at theft during the day.


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## MacB (8 Nov 2014)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> We personally never kept our main wallets or passports in the barbags simply for security reasons. Photocopies of the passports yes, but the actual passport was safely and snugly stowed away at the bottom of a waterproof bag inside the zip pocket of the rear panniers which when you have the ortlieb rackpack that clips into the classic rollers makes them pretty secure against any casual attempt at theft during the day.



Interesting, does this meet requirements in countries that expect a passport to be carried liked Spain?


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (8 Nov 2014)

We were still carrying them and could produce the original eventually, but in most countries that wanted our passports when we checked into a hotel or went into a bank we feigned ignorance and it usually worked. It was only in Belarus and at borders where we knew it would be checked (crossing into Serbia, Belarus, Macedonia, Greece, Turkey, Ireland, onto the Netherlands) that we actually had it to our ready. After those individual days they (on our case) went deep back inside our panniers and we just told people they would have to wait whilst we found them etc. It worked everytime.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Nov 2014)

Dayvo said:


> As I've mentioned on this forum before, I started a 3-month tour from Nordkapp to Gibraltar with a BOB Yak. On the very first day having just started, I got to about 40kph and the bike developed a wobble which I couldn't control. I was thrown, landed on my head which shattered my helmet and I broke my left collarbone (no other injuries). After a month's rehabilitation, I re-started in southern Sweden on a new bike and panniers.
> 
> I will always use panniers in future: no trailers for me. But, of course, there are a lot of happy trailer users around.



I'm happy with panniers. I'm happy with a bobyak. But here's the thing...

My current touring bike, new this year, Jamis Aurora Elite... lovely bike... ride it unloaded... wind it up downhill to 50kph... hit a rough patch of road surface... instant TERRIFYING speed wobble.

Put panniers on the back (I've only tried this with them lightly loaded as a test)... same road... same rider... same rough surface... no speed wobble.

Physics is a harsh mistress and her laws are merciless, and there are a lot of variables in the rider, luggage, trailer load, speed wobble equation.


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## threebikesmcginty (11 Nov 2014)

Has he gone yet?


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## Blue Hills (11 Nov 2014)

MacB said:


> Interesting, does this meet requirements in countries that expect a passport to be carried liked Spain?


You are supposed to carry ID at all times in Italy as well.

I never do.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (11 Nov 2014)

Blue Hills said:


> You are supposed to carry ID at all times in Italy as well.
> 
> I never do.


Tis the one thing a photo I'd driving licence is really handy for.. So much easier to replace than a passport


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