# Keto Diet



## Bill Gates (20 Jan 2020)

Might be worth trying keto diet. Low carb high fat after a a couple of weeks body becomes keto adapted and the body uses ketone for fuel and burns fat for energy. No need to feed at all just hydrate. Instead of 2000 calories of stored energy which is used up after 2 hours or so the body has 40000 of calories of stored energy from fat. That's what I'm on and never felt more healthy. Lots of athletes have adopted this method mostly endurance iron man etc. The man who initially wrote the book on carb loading before an endurance event has completely turned about face and admitted he was totally wrong. Used by Australian cricketers David Warner and Shane Watson. I'm getting my son to try and when he finishes his racing season in Oman he will do it. In the first couple of weeks there is performance loss but after that it's all benefit in performance. 
BTW those who said my son should get another coach rather than me should know that within 12 months of riding he won his first TT in a field of 50 riders. I never won my first TT, and I don't know who has.


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## classic33 (20 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> *Might be worth trying keto diet. *Low carb high fat after a a couple of weeks body becomes keto adapted and the body uses ketone for fuel and burns fat for energy. No need to feed at all just hydrate. Instead of 2000 calories of stored energy which is used up after 2 hours or so the body has 40000 of calories of stored energy from fat. That's what I'm on and never felt more healthy. Lots of athletes have adopted this method mostly endurance iron man etc. The man who initially wrote the book on carb loading before an endurance event has completely turned about face and admitted he was totally wrong. Used by Australian cricketers David Warner and Shane Watson. I'm getting my son to try and when he finishes his racing season in Oman he will do it. In the first couple of weeks there is performance loss but after that it's all benefit in performance.
> BTW those who said my son should get another coach rather than me should know that within 12 months of riding he won his first TT in a field of 50 riders. I never won my first TT, and I don't know who has.


Best started with proper medical advice before and monitoring through the first few months.


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## Bill Gates (20 Jan 2020)

classic33 said:


> Best started with proper medical advice before and monitoring through the first few months.


The guy who wrote the book on carbohydrate loading for endurance events is Dr Tim Noakes. If anyone is interested here he is explaining the reasoning behind his U Turn.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWrH2tzVjs



The clincher for me is Jurgen Klopp and Liverpool F.C. at the end of the video. Are they on a Keto diet?


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## Bill Gates (20 Jan 2020)

Actual studies testing low carb and high carb diets for elite athletes. Dr Jeff Volek


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9MAsaW64Io


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## classic33 (20 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> The guy who wrote the book on carbohydrate loading for endurance events is Dr Tim Noakes. If anyone is interested here he is explaining the reasoning behind his U Turn.
> 
> The clincher for me is Jurgen Klopp and Liverpool F.C. at the end of the video. Are they on a Keto diet?


Still not one to start without the proper medical support in place, which Jurgen Klopp had.

Proper Ketogenic Diet may well require supplements, that have to be prescribed by a doctor, in the UK. Which will be determined by blood tests normally.


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## Bill Gates (20 Jan 2020)

classic33 said:


> Still not one to start without the proper medical support in place, which Jurgen Klopp had.
> 
> Proper Ketogenic Diet may well require supplements, that have to be prescribed by a doctor, in the UK. Which will be determined by blood tests normally.



You might need some extra salt. Not table salt but natural salt, like Himalaya salt. Carbohydrates are not essential to a diet. There are no supplements that you need to take at all. I am taking omega 3 fish oil with vitamin D as that is for the lack of sunshine this time of year and also to counter balance theamount of Omega 6. I've read the books about this and viewed lots of presentations by the experts in the field. I wouldn't trust a doctor with anything that contradicts their fatally flawed NICE guidelines. 
The salt will handle what they call keto flu, and that's about it. Please tell me what supplements., you suggest you xhould take and your evidence that you need a doctor for a blood test. What's a blood test going to tell you?


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## classic33 (20 Jan 2020)

What I've posted is based on the fact I was placed on the Ketogenic Diet. Not a modified version.

It didn't work out, for me, which doesn't mean it won't work for someone else.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/should-you-try-the-keto-diet


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## Bill Gates (21 Jan 2020)

It is true that the keto diet requires you to eat fat. For me that is not a problem as I am absolutely of the mind that eating fat does not end up with clogged arteries as followers of previous posts of mine are well aware. The fat I am eating is from avocados, butter, cocount oil, nuts, olive oil, and fatty foods like salami, sausages, bacon cooked in butter. Edit: I also eat lots of dairy like cheese and full fat milk and I'm not holding back on salt either and do you know what my cooked breakfasts at the weekend taste fantastic.

I don't eat bread, pasta, potatoes and rice. I also steer clear of anything to do with seeded oils as they are very bad for you especially fructose oil syrup which is used as cooking oil for KFC and Macdonald and mostly all other fast food outlets. I avoid all sugar as much as possible including fruit (fructose). Definitely no cakes or biscuits as they cause a rise in insulin and blood sugar levels which cause cravings when the bloop sugar drops suddenly.

After 3 months I can easily go for 24 hours and eat nothing at all, which I do once or twice a week because I am no longer hungry. I ate breakfast this morning but only because today I'm doing some training, but could have easily gone without. Some days I drink "bullet proof" coffee, a euphemism for coffee blended with an MCT oil (in my case coconut oil) and butter a not unpleasant drink at all.

I appreciate that for most of us it sounds unpalatable but the benefits are unlimited supply of energy from ketones, better cognitive function (I can remember things now that I couldn't before), not causing inflammation to the body from eating sugary foods,and weight control management.


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## winjim (21 Jan 2020)

You had me up until the magic salt.


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## Bill Gates (21 Jan 2020)

winjim said:


> You had me up until the magic salt.




Too valuable to throw over your shoulder. Comes down from Tibet along the silk road and then paddle steamer to Tilbury docks. I believe if you feel especially lucky it can forecast the draw for the National Lottery by the way the crystals land if you throw them on to a saucer with your left hand, while chanting Hari Krishna


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## Bill Gates (26 Jan 2020)

I lost 3 lbs this week. It's actually a diet that's not only great for athletes but ideal for fat people to lose weight. Mr sceptical out there who is taking a whole list of medication, overweight and feeling like crap, should make a life style change and try this diet. Most lightweights stop after a week or two. 

I'm not taking any meds any more, even ditched the daily aspirin.


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## The Jogger (27 Jan 2020)

I'm on keto and would take magnesium if I was you. The Big Fat Fix is a great film based on low carb eating and exercise. Cardiologist Aseem Malhotra and Donal O'Neill made it.


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## Bill Gates (28 Jan 2020)

The Jogger said:


> I'm on keto and would take magnesium if I was you. The Big Fat Fix is a great film based on low carb eating and exercise. Cardiologist Aseem Malhotra and Donal O'Neill made it.


Here is a link that discusses it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skabAd0e4bI


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/X4FNYj

Looks like some of the pro teams are taking a ketone supplement and it is being questioned as a dubious performance enhancement. I can't see how one drink can put you into ketosis. Basically all it is is MCT oil, which you can buy in supermarkets. Blend it into coffee with butter and hey presto a "bullet Proof" coffee to improve your performance by 2 to 3%. 

The keto adapted athlete maybe but this supplement is probably over rated.

MCT oil (medium chain triglyceride) 6/8 carbon atoms in a line which goes straight to the liver where it is converted into ketones for energy and not fat stores


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

If you want to shift from Primarily carb to primarily fat burning, look at your cycling technique, concentrate on cycling at high power and high cadence ( for arguments sake 150 Watts + at 90 ( ish )rpm) no need for a fad diet.


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

And ‘carb loading’ really doesn’t work particularly well either. Once you’ve got about 2 hours worth ( for an average Joe at average intensity) of Carbs stored in your muscles and liver, that’s as much as you can get in, it’s pointless trying to ‘load’ any more. Far better to make sure your technique engages the fast twitch muscles, at sufficient switching frequency and force that your Carb usage becomes as efficient as possible, for as long as possible ( high cadence high power )


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> If you want to shift from Primarily carb to primarily fat burning, look at your cycling technique, concentrate on cycling at high power and high cadence ( for arguments sake 150 Watts + at 90 ( ish )rpm) no need for a fad diet.


You've missed the point (unsurpisingly not). You don't burn carbs you burn glucose which is obtained from metabolising the carbs. If you are not eating carbs in your diet (keto diet) then there is a turnover of glucose from the glycogen in the muscles but *all* your energy is from ketones and fat burning. So instead of having to load with carbs to prevent the bonk after around 2 hours or so you can keep going without refueling. 

The way you are cycling has no impact whatosever. According to you you don't need to fuel up after 2 hours if you concentrate on cycling at high power and high cadence, because you're fat burning.  Have you ever ridden anywhere for longer than 2 hours let alone raced over 50 miles. Please I would like to know.

The Keto diet is high fat low carbs diet and is not a fad diet at all.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Really this takes the biscuit for the most ill informed posts I have ever read


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## slowfen (30 Jan 2020)

" I also steer clear of anything to do with seeded oils as they are very bad for you especially fructose oil syrup which is used as cooking oil for KFC and Macdonald and mostly all other fast food outlets "

This is worrying. Fructose is a sugar (mono-saccharide) it is not an oil/fat, it would in fact caramalise and burn at frying temperatures, are you mixing it with high fructose corn syrup which is ued in a lot of sugary drinks/ready meals. Also, the majority of oils come from seeds/pits. 
If your posts are indicative of your understanding of the keto diet, ie mixing up of food groups, poor understanding of where ingredients come from, then you may well be in for trouble at a later date.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Incidentally I don't believe Mcdonalds use it any more. apologies for misleading anyone


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> You've missed the point (unsurpisingly not). You don't burn carbs you burn glucose which is obtained from metabolising the carbs. If you are not eating carbs in your diet (keto diet) then there is a turnover of glucose from the glycogen in the muscles but *all* your energy is from ketones and fat burning. So instead of having to load with carbs to prevent the bonk after around 2 hours or so you can keep going without refueling.


You might want to read this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45195474
I do know the difference between carbs and their metabolites thank you 


Bill Gates said:


> The way you are cycling has no impact whatosever. According to you you don't need to fuel up after 2 hours if you concentrate on cycling at high power and high cadence, because you're fat burning.


That’s not what I said at all, and I think you know it, I said you can use the stores more efficiently, not that they won’t run out. Either that’s poor quality trolling, or you really don’t know, either way have another.
Just so you know, here’s a little snippet of actual info and data for you, just to show you how wrong you are there and educate you.
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/why-amateurs-shouldnt-try-to-pedal-like-chris-froome-191779



Bill Gates said:


> Have you ever ridden anywhere for longer than 2 hours let alone raced over 50 miles. Please I would like to know.


No, not me, never
You might want to check who you’re ( mistakenly ) trying to call out in future, and wind your neck in a bit.
I did have another study linked as well, which showed with actual scientific data how the rates of depletion of your glycogen stores vary with varying power and cadence, the reasons why, and the effects of different strategies on fuelling and feeding, but it’s been deleted from my files, which is irritating. But essentially if you pedal at high Cadence, and high power, your stores are used more efficiently, than if you opt for lower cadence high power, and the oxygen demand is also less at high power high cadence because less actual muscle cells are being used.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> I do know the difference between carbs and their metabolites thank you
> 
> either that’s poor quality trolling, or you really don’t know, either way have another.
> Just so you know, here’s a little snippet of actual info and data for you, just to show you how wrong you are there and educate you.
> ...


[/QUOTE]


OK just read your link. So I'm reading Oxygen uptake relative to cadence, and err oxygen uptake and oh whats that - err oxygen uptake. Hmm can't seem to see anything about fat burning anywhere . So what's the relevance because i can't see any. Maybe I'm too dumb to see it please point out the relevance of this link. So who are you then that I should show you the respect you deserve?


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## slowfen (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> err so i missed out the word "corn". Big *ucking Deal


So you resort to swearing and missed the point entirely. You cannot fry in a sugar syrup, this is because it is a syrup, not an oil. This is nutrition 101.


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> OK just read your link. So I'm reading Oxygen uptake relative to cadence, and err oxygen uptake and oh whats that - err oxygen uptake. Hmm can't seem to see anything about fat burning anywhere . So what's the relevance because i can't see any. Maybe I'm too dumb to see it please point out the relevance of this link. So who are you then that I should show you the respect you deserve?


The study I wanted to link to has been deleted from my phone, I will try and find it again, it makes for an interesting read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4314601/
It’s not the one I had before, but this does show that your assertion that various pedalling techniques / cadences / forces, have no effect on fuelling, is completely at odds with the experts.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

slowfen said:


> So you resort to swearing and missed the point entirely. You cannot fry in a sugar syrup, this is because it is a syrup, not an oil. This is nutrition 101.


yeah apologies I was confusing with frying with hydrogenated cooking oils. But still the point about consuming high fructose corn syrup is valid.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> The study I wanted to link to has been deleted from my phone, I will try and find it again, it makes for an interesting read.



OK I concede there may well be an excellent case for the way you are riding to impact on your glycogen levels, but there is still going to be a moment with continual exercise that the body's store of glycogen will get depleted. It might be two hours or even 3 hours. The point I am making is that it doesn't matter as with a keto adapted athlete you will never get the bonk.


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> OK I concede there may well be an excellent case for the way you are riding to impact on your glycogen levels, but there is still going to be a moment with continual exercise that the body's store of glycogen will get depleted. It might be two hours or even 3 hours. The point I am making is that it doesn't matter as with a keto adapted athlete you will never get the bonk.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45195474


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> The study I wanted to link to has been deleted from my phone, I will try and find it again, it makes for an interesting read.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4314601/
> It’s not the one I had before, but this does show that your assertion that various pedalling techniques / cadences / forces, have no effect on fuelling, is completely at odds with the experts.


Yes but that is the rate of glycogen depletion. and is not fat burning


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Yes but that is the rate of glycogen depletion. and is not fat burning


https://www.peakendurancesport.com/...ng-using-body-fat-instead-carbohydrates-fuel/
And

https://www.bicycling.com/training/a20044962/fast-twitch-slow-twitch-muscles-explained/


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45195474


The study relied on the participants remembering over 25 years the carbs they had eaten. Not very scientific is it.


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> The study relied on the participants remembering over 25 years the carbs they had eaten. Not very scientific is it.


https://www.bicycling.com/training/a20044962/fast-twitch-slow-twitch-muscles-explained/


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> https://www.peakendurancesport.com/...ng-using-body-fat-instead-carbohydrates-fuel/
> And
> 
> https://www.bicycling.com/training/a20044962/fast-twitch-slow-twitch-muscles-explained/


Thank you for that it confirms everything I've been saying


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Thank you for that it confirms everything I've been saying


No it doesn’t, you’ve misinterpreted it badly.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> No it doesn’t, you’ve misinterpreted it badly.


Instead of sending me a number links to read, which I have read. Please would you mind copying and pasting anything which says that you are not going to eventually deplete your glycogen energy stores in continual exercise, notwithstanding there is going to be a certain degree of fat oxidation. If you would refer to the study between low carb and high carb athletes I posted 4th post of the thread and you will see the different degrees of fat oxidation between the two groups.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Oh and BTW who are you?


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## Racing roadkill (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Instead of sending me a number links to read, which I have read. Please would you mind copying and pasting anything which says that you are not going to eventually deplete your glycogen energy stores in continual exercise, notwithstanding there is going to be a certain degree of fat oxidation. If you would refer to the study between low carb and high carb athletes I posted 4th post of the thread and you will see the different degrees of fat oxidation between the two groups.


As you can see in my first reply ( if you look ) I said you can help preserve your glycogen reserves, dependant on how you ride, not that they would never run out.


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## Bill Gates (30 Jan 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> As you can see in my first reply ( if you look ) I said you can help preserve your glycogen reserves, dependant on how you ride, not that they would never run out.


OK. Shake hands?


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> After 3 months I can easily go for 24 hours and eat nothing at all, which I do once or twice a week because I am no longer hungry.



err anybody can do this if they want, no special diet required. Same with fat burning you can get the same adaptions through training.


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## SpokeyDokey (30 Jan 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> OK. Shake hands?



*Mod note:* that would be a nice idea as this thread is very close to being locked re the continual sniping going on.


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> https://www.peakendurancesport.com/...ng-using-body-fat-instead-carbohydrates-fuel/
> And
> 
> https://www.bicycling.com/training/a20044962/fast-twitch-slow-twitch-muscles-explained/



Quotes taken from this link that you asked me to read and which you said do not bear out what I was saying.

*Factors affecting fat oxidation*
_Exercise intensity – One of the most important factors that determines the rate of fat oxidation during exercise is the intensity. Although several studies have described the relationship between exercise intensity and fat oxidation, only recently was this relationship studied over a wide range of intensities(2). In absolute terms, carbohydrate oxidation increases proportionally with exercise intensity, whereas the rate of fat oxidation initially increases, but decreases again at higher exercise intensities (see figure 1). So, although it is often claimed that you have to exercise at low intensities to oxidise fat, this is not necessarily true.

Dietary effects – The other important factor is diet. A diet high in carbohydrate will suppress fat oxidation, and a diet low in carbohydrate will result in high fat oxidation rates. Ingesting carbohydrate in the hours before exercise will raise insulin and subsequently suppress fat oxidation by up to 35%(5) or thereabouts. This effect of insulin on fat oxidation may last as long as six to eight hours after a meal, and this means that the highest fat oxidation rates can be achieved after an overnight fast. _

I can imagine the situation in a road race where the pace is getting higher and higher and you ask the riders ahead to ease down because the intensity doesn't suit your optimum level for fat burning.[/QUOTE]


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> err anybody can do this if they want, no special diet required. Same with fat burning you can get the same adaptions through training.


You are right you don't need a special diet to not eat anything for 24 hours. Funny that. Please read the 4th post of this thread for the 2nd part of your post.


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> You are right you don't need a special diet to not eat anything for 24 hours. Funny that. Please read the 4th post of this thread for the 2nd part of your post.



Still true, you can use fat as a primary fuel at high levels of your max aerobic capacity through training. You don’t need a ketogenic diet for that. Diet might assist but it’s not the only way to get the adaptions.


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## Racing roadkill (1 Feb 2020)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/food/articles/protein_versus_carbs


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## Racing roadkill (1 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> .
> 
> What is Fructose Oil Syrup? There is no fructose added.


It’s actually high fructose corn syrup.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-fructose_corn_syrup
It’s not good news, it actually causes the receptors in the brain to which the hormone Ghrelin, produced by the liver, to tell the brain you’ve eaten enough binds, to be blocked, so you still feel hungry when you’re not. I don’t think it’s used much outside of the USA, but they use it to sweeten all sorts of things.


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## Racing roadkill (1 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> I can imagine the situation in a road race where the pace is getting higher and higher and you ask the riders ahead to ease down because the intensity doesn't suit your optimum level for fat burning.


It’s not so much about the fat burning, that’s not the primary concern, the primary concern is that whilst you’ve shifted the feeding equilibrium to fat ( triglyceride ), by using the requisite power at cadence ( high / high ) you’re not depleting the glycogen stores as much. This means when you hit a hill, and you find yourself at high power relative lower cadence, the equilibrium shifts to primarily Glycogen feeding, and you have enough stores left, to get you up the hill. It’s strategy / tactics, and it’s one virtually all top pro’s use, for the reasons I outlined. Also a high / high tactic is more oxygen efficient, because of the number of muscle fibres, and type of muscle fibres engaged ( fast twitch at high force / frequency ).


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## fossyant (1 Feb 2020)

I'm not one for extreme diets, like this - OP I'll refer to your feeling ill after exercise on your other thread. I'd certainly be discussing your current diet with a GP considering your health problems.


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## Racing roadkill (1 Feb 2020)

If you’re producing Ketones, you are actually dying. The Ketones are there to keep the brain fed / functioning / alive, when all the easily metabolised fuel has been depleted. It’s a very bad idea to do it on purpose.


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

I made this statement in a earlier post.

_I also steer clear of anything to do with seeded oils as they are very bad for you especially fructose oil syrup which is used as cooking oil for KFC and Mcdonald and mostly all other fast food outlets. I avoid all sugar as much as possible including fruit (fructose). _

This is totally wrong and I have corrected myself already in later posts. To explain I was getting ahead of myself in that I was trying to get the fact that High Fructose Corn Syrup was to be avoided and substituted it for Hydrogenated Oil in the wrong place. Sometimes you write things that look right but are not. I should have proof read it back because obviously a syrup is not an oil. Sorry Folks


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> I'm not one for exterme diets, like this - OP I'll refer to your feeling ill after exercise on your other thread. I'd certainly be discussing your current diet with a GP considering your health problems.


Could be so. On the other hand it might not be. I've been in ketosis for 3 months and felt great up until today especially during training - slow pull ups and slow lowering with a wide grip best I've ever done. See how it goes for a while before changing anything.


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## fossyant (1 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Could be so. On the other hand it might not be. I've been in ketosis for 3 months and felt great up until today especially during training - slow pull ups and slow lowering with a wide grip best I've ever done. See how it goes for a while before changing anything.



3 months is not long, and it's not a long term sustainable diet. You are likely suffering side effects of the super low carb intake.

If it continues, go see a GP and discuss your diet and training.


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> If you’re producing Ketones, you are actually dying. The Ketones are there to keep the brain fed / functioning / alive, when all the easily metabolised fuel has been depleted. It’s a very bad idea to do it on purpose.


I recently read somewhere that the record for fasting was one year and 17 days, and it must have been the ketones that kept the person alive. Appreciate your concerns though


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> 3 months is not long, and it's not a long term sustainable diet. You are likely suffering side effects of the super low carb intake.
> 
> If it continues, go see a GP and discuss your diet and training.


OK will do


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## Bill Gates (1 Feb 2020)

I've just done some research and dizziness and nausea is normal as the body changes to burning ketones for fuel. Sometimes refered to as keto flu. It should only be temporary


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## classic33 (1 Feb 2020)

_"A ketogenic diet has numerous risks. Top of the list: it's high in saturated fat. McManus recommends that you keep saturated fats to no more than 7% of your daily calories because of the link to heart disease. And indeed, the keto diet is associated with an increase in "bad" LDL cholesterol, which is also linked to heart disease.

Other potential keto risks include these:

Nutrient deficiency. 
"If you're not eating a wide variety of vegetables, fruits, and grains, you may be at risk for deficiencies in micronutrients, including selenium, magnesium, phosphorus, and vitamins B and C," McManus says.

Liver problems. 
With so much fat to metabolize, the diet could make any existing liver conditions worse.

Kidney problems. 
The kidneys help metabolize protein, and McManus says the keto diet may overload them. (The current recommended intake for protein averages 46 grams per day for women, and 56 grams for men).

Constipation. 
The keto diet is low in fibrous foods like grains and legumes.

Fuzzy thinking and mood swings. 
"The brain needs sugar from healthy carbohydrates to function. Low-carb diets may cause confusion and irritability," McManus says.

Those risks add up — so make sure that you talk to a doctor and a registered dietitian before ever attempting a ketogenic diet."_


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> I recently read somewhere that the record for fasting was one year and 17 days, and it must have been the ketones that kept the person alive. Appreciate your concerns though



Here you go. He was 32.5 stone though so had a lot of fat to burn.


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## Bill Gates (3 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> _"A ketogenic diet has numerous risks. Top of the list: it's high in saturated fat. McManus recommends that you keep saturated fats to no more than 7% of your daily calories because of the link to heart disease. And indeed, the keto diet is associated with an increase in "bad" LDL cholesterol, which is also linked to heart disease.
> 
> Other potential keto risks include these:
> 
> ...


I pretty much disagree with all of that. At its heart are the health guidelines that exist regarding what is and what is not a healthy diet, which is still being put forward as being the definitive blueprint to eat by, and that for me is totally discredited as they are based on flawed studies funded by the food companies or pharmaceutical companies. I base what I am eating on totally independent studies and my own experiences of duff dangerous medical advice. But then I would wouldn't I?


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## classic33 (3 Feb 2020)

Keto Flu, as you want to call it, is normally seen when starting the Ketogenic Diet. You claim you're suffering it months after starting it.

I was on it to take me off medication, which isn't what a pharmaceutical company would want. Unless they had a vested interest in the diet.


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## fossyant (3 Feb 2020)

Bill you do worry me a bit. 

You seem to fixate on certain things and refuse to listen to advice - e.g. wouldn't take anyone else's opinion on statins (loads of us on CC are on them with good results and no side effects) - they unfortunately didn't agree with you, and a long term Keto diet isn't good, especially if you've not got much fat to burn, and I no doubt this diet isn't going to help with your heart problems.

It's too extreme, and over time places excess demand on the body. You also mentor other cyclists and you won't find a pro team nutritionist advising a keto diet over anything other than a short time.

I'm seeing some quite 'stuck' opinions so we might as well not respond. You do what you want, but don't preach to us how good a keto diet is. It's not sustainable. 

If you still get dizzy spells, I'd be off to the GP asap given age/heart issues and the diet you are on - hence the 'worry'.


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## Bill Gates (3 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> Bill you do worry me a bit.
> 
> You seem to fixate on certain things and refuse to listen to advice - e.g. wouldn't take anyone else's opinion on statins (loads of us on CC are on them with good results and no side effects) - they unfortunately didn't agree with you, and a long term Keto diet isn't good, especially if you've not got much fat to burn, and I no doubt this diet isn't going to help with your heart problems.
> 
> ...


My blood pressure this morning was 116/63. On Saturday afternoon it was 168/103. I was physically sick 4 times, and I was experiencing loss of balance. On Sunday morning still had some slight symptoms of balance issues but had a raging thirst and I consumed maybe a a litre or so of water over a couple of hours. I've had issues related motion sickness in the past but always felt more ill when I closed my eyes. Not so in this case. You are putting this down to my diet and you may be right, but it might be over exertion or dehydration. I haven't deviated from the keto diet. Tomorrow should be interesting as I'm doing my weight training using the technique I adopted recently regarding slowly lifting and lowering to fatigue. 
I am passionate about life style being the best option re health issues and for me the keto diet is just one part of that. I may be dead after my training tomorrow but I'd rather that than living and feeling like crap all the time. This was never going to be the path to concensus. I've been labeled a nutter ever since I brought up the statins issue way back in the cycling plus days. That's OK I'm a big boy and can take it. If it's all the same to you I won't be going over that old chestnut as I don't want to get banned again at least until after friday.
My son is a big boy and he knows that I'm on a keto diet. He isn't and will be unlikely to do so. So you can sleep easily tonight on that bit.
Seriously thank you for your concern. I am also concerned for you on a list of meds but don't take that as me preaching to you. Just opening the door so you can make a rational decision as have I.


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## The Jogger (4 Feb 2020)

I have to say a keto diet is sustainable but not addictive like a high carb diet.
It keeps the insulin low and this is why it is now used for type 2 diabetics, who often suffer from heart disease. Always a good idea to have issues checked on any diet though


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## AuroraSaab (6 Feb 2020)

I certainly find that a low carb diet works for me in terms of weight loss. But so does intermittent fasting - which if you are fasting for 24hrs twice a week, as you said, means you are bound to lose weight. 

My view these days is that most diets work if you can stick to them for long enough, even the fad diets like Slim Fast. Keto, Paleo, low carb, Atkins, count your macros, can all work if you find them sustainable. Many don't and find the simple healthy eating approach of Slimming World or WW easier to maintain as a lifestyle change long term. 

I read a book call Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes which puts forward the carbs/insulin theory and is a compelling case for eating fewer carbs . Personally, I think sugar is a bigger long term health issue than moderate carb consumption.

I have to say though, Bill, your combative and at times aggressive, posts on this thread don't really help your argument.


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## Bill Gates (6 Feb 2020)

AuroraSaab said:


> I certainly find that a low carb diet works for me in terms of weight loss. But so does intermittent fasting - which if you are fasting for 24hrs twice a week, as you said, means you are bound to lose weight.
> 
> My view these days is that most diets work if you can stick to them for long enough, even the fad diets like Slim Fast. Keto, Paleo, low carb, Atkins, count your macros, can all work if you find them sustainable. Many don't and find the simple healthy eating approach of Slimming World or WW easier to maintain as a lifestyle change long term.
> 
> ...


There is a context that you may not be aware of which goes back to other threads re statins and some aggressive personal attacks against myself. These protagonists can be found and identified as the posters who regularly place a like under any, or even all posts that are in anyway critical of me on any thread you care to mention be it chat or training or whatever. This resulted in me putting up an aggressive defence and resulted in yours truly getting banned.

I don't want to go down the statins route again as I'll be accused of going off topic and get banned again.

Re your post I know you are aware but for the reader carbs are turned into sugar in the body so have the same impact.

I am a lone voice as is Prof Tim Noakes. But the science is on my side. A sort of summary from 35 minutes 10 seconds if you don't want to see it all.

Please watch this. I know its a long clip but its very much worth it.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJf8e2E5TsM


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## AuroraSaab (6 Feb 2020)

Fair enough. I wasn't aware of any previous threads. As a fairly new member I find this site full of so many helpful folk, yet the tone of some of the threads, especially the EU/Brexit/politics ones, is quite depressingly snarky, and that it is very off-putting. It shouldn't be beyond any of us to post in a civil manner without denigrating others.


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## classic33 (6 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> The guy who wrote the book on carbohydrate loading for endurance events is *Dr Tim Noakes*. If anyone is interested here he is explaining the reasoning behind his U Turn.
> 
> The clincher for me is Jurgen Klopp and Liverpool F.C. at the end of the video. Are they on a Keto diet?





Bill Gates said:


> There is a context that you may not be aware of which goes back to other threads re statins and some aggressive personal attacks against myself. These protagonists can be found and identified as the posters who regularly place a like under any, or even all posts that are in anyway critical of me on any thread you care to mention be it chat or training or whatever. This resulted in me putting up an aggressive defence and resulted in yours truly getting banned.
> 
> I don't want to go down the statins route again as I'll be accused of going off topic and get banned again.
> 
> ...


Struck off, by the courts, in South Africa.

The Ketogenic Diet is a set amount, each day, every day. Not one you stop and start as you please. Best started under medical advice, where you can get the support when things go wrong.

It's not a diet suitable for everyone. Books and "Dr google" can only make things worse. From someone who was placed on the proper Ketogenic Diet, to try and get me off medication(away from the hands of "big pharma"), but found it didn't work, for me.

Why would someone promoting a diet, post this?


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## The Jogger (6 Feb 2020)

Moderate carbs? Carbs are sugar, why would you want to moderately poison yourself.

Noakes won his court case in South Africa.


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## Bill Gates (7 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> Struck off, by the courts, in South Africa.
> 
> The Ketogenic Diet is a set amount, each day, every day. Not one you stop and start as you please. Best started under medical advice, where you can get the support when things go wrong.
> 
> ...


How come this Dr Ken D Berry (video below) that you show in your post says this. ??????

"The ketogenic way of eating is the easiest, most sustainable diet I've ever recommended as a family doctor. You can use it to revers obesity, inflammation and other symptoms of chronic disease. It is easy to start, and easy to maintain. You can get started by following these simple steps. Blah Blah"


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5N7x8TQrt8


An bit selective to say that Prof. Tim Noakes was struck off, when he won his court case because the science was accurate.

Notwithstanding the situation about yourself that you can't do the keto diet, which I accept as incontrovertible, Are you questioning the science behind the video link? I don't think you've watched any of it otherwise you would have known that Prof. Tim Noakes won the appeal against him because he says so right at the beginning.


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## classic33 (7 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> How come this Dr Ken D Berry (video below) that you show in your post says this. ??????
> 
> "The ketogenic way of eating is the easiest, most sustainable diet I've ever recommended as a family doctor. You can use it to revers obesity, inflammation and other symptoms of chronic disease. It is easy to start, and easy to maintain. You can get started by following these simple steps. Blah Blah"
> 
> ...



I posted no video. Please don't say I've done something we both know to be false.

There's a difference between the Banting Diet, promoted by Noakes, and the Ketogenic Diet.


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## Bill Gates (7 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> I posted no video. Please don't say I've done something we both know to be false.
> 
> There's a difference between the Banting Diet, promoted by Noakes, and the Ketogenic Diet.



OK. You interpreted what I posted incorrectly. Please read it again. You mentioned Dr Ken D Berry in some sort of screen save headlining Dr says keto diet is the worst one in the world. My post with the " (video below)" was to show what he really thinks.

I give you the benefit of the doubt as you probably read it with tad of red mist.

There is a difference between the Banting Diet and the Keto diet. So ?

Your inference is that Tim Noakes does not promote the Keto diet. This is untrue as there are innumerous references to Prof Tim Noakes promoting the Keto diet. You need look no further than one of the first posts on this thread with the video clip on the keto diet for athletes, which is of course where we came in. One has to ask if you ever bother to watch any of this stuff. It is after all what the thread is all about. I always read or watch stuff presented to me as has been shown earlier here to promote theories etc. and then counter with reasoned argument instead of rolling out the same old entrenched viewpoints. Lets face it we are never going to agree.


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## Bill Gates (7 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> I posted no video. Please don't say I've done something we both know to be false.
> 
> There's a difference between the Banting Diet, promoted by Noakes, and the Ketogenic Diet.


Sorry I've just been watching the video of of Dr Ken D Berry and the idea that you would have posted it in support of anti the keto diet is frankly hilarious. He is much more a believer than I am.


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## Fab Foodie (7 Feb 2020)

Dears, can I clarify something here....

Yes, Carbs are made of sugars. Carbs can be simple or complex, dietary fibre is also carbs and this made of sugars albeit in an indigestible construction.
There is a significant difference between the body’s insulin response to simple sugars compared to the different complexity of various carbs. This is important.
Furthermore, the food matrix in which any carbs form a part also impacts on the body’s uptake of those sugars and therefore insulin response. 
It’s easy to generalise and simplify but that is to miss the point. Insulin response is the prime factor.
Simple sugars(and some starches) have limited value to the average human, but more complex carbs have their place in any healthy ‘diet’....


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## The Jogger (7 Feb 2020)

I beg to differ, you get enough carbs your body needs from green veg.
Whether it's white bread or chunky wholemeal bread your body reacts in the same way. Your insulin rises, which leads to all sorts of problems.
We were fooled for years by the food pyramid, lots of carbs on the bottom rising to less meat and fat, it has now turned upside down. Real food, meat, fish, good fats, avacados, olive oil etc etc. You can eat this and not put on weight, it's more of what people ate before the corrupt findings of Ancel Keyes, that's when people started eating low fat, dangerous oils, trans fats, all to the benefit of the processed food brigade and pill pushers.
Obesity rates since the low fat, high carb way of eating was advised have rocketed. If you look at old news clips and photos, obesity was not as evident as it was now because people ate real food and didn't snack on addictive carbs like they do today.


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## Bill Gates (8 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> I beg to differ, you get enough carbs your body needs from green veg.
> Whether it's white bread or chunky wholemeal bread your body reacts in the same way. Your insulin rises, which leads to all sorts of problems.
> We were fooled for years by the food pyramid, lots of carbs on the bottom rising to less meat and fat, it has now turned upside down. Real food, meat, fish, good fats, avacados, olive oil etc etc. You can eat this and not put on weight, it's more of what people ate before the corrupt findings of Ancel Keyes, that's when people started eating low fat, dangerous oils, trans fats, all to the benefit of the processed food brigade and pill pushers.
> Obesity rates since the low fat, high carb way of eating was advised have rocketed. If you look at old news clips and photos, obesity was not as evident as it was now because people ate real food and didn't snack on addictive carbs like they do today.


For most people who read that their whole life style is based on a false premise that high carb low fat is the way to go it can be very difficult for them to handle.
Health guidelines and the way that meds are given out to deal with symptoms rather than changing what you eat is the normal way society acts.
Once you acknowledge that just maybe what we are being told is wrong, as highlighted by some very brave doctors and journalists, then the scales fall from your eyes; as they did for me one Sunday back in 2005 when I discovered that the side effects of statins had been hidden from me (not deliberately) by my doctors.
When you get a shock like that you cease to place the total trust you had in your doctors ever again.

Edit.
P.S. My Doctor's surgery has its own pharmacy. It is well known that GPs get funding from prescribing drugs like statins, as they are perceived to be preventing CVD by the government. If they have their own pharmacy they are making more on top of that. If there are any GPs out there reading this please tell me where your incentive is to send patients away without a prescription?

Please don't take this as my wanting to start a discussion about statins as this thread is about the keto diet and need to keep on topic (with one eye on the mods). Thank you


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## Fab Foodie (8 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> I beg to differ, you get enough carbs your body needs from green veg.
> Whether it's white bread or chunky wholemeal bread your body reacts in the same way. Your insulin rises, which leads to all sorts of problems.
> We were fooled for years by the food pyramid, lots of carbs on the bottom rising to less meat and fat, it has now turned upside down. Real food, meat, fish, good fats, avacados, olive oil etc etc. You can eat this and not put on weight, it's more of what people ate before the corrupt findings of Ancel Keyes, that's when people started eating low fat, dangerous oils, trans fats, all to the benefit of the processed food brigade and pill pushers.
> Obesity rates since the low fat, high carb way of eating was advised have rocketed. If you look at old news clips and photos, obesity was not as evident as it was now because people ate real food and didn't snack on addictive carbs like they do today.



I mostly agree, you can get enough carbs from green veg, but you need to eat a fair amount, carbs from beans, pulses, whole grains, spuds and squashes are generally fine too as part of a healthy diet.
Nobody should be living-off white bread, white rice, pizza and pastry, but unfortunately millions do, washed down with Coke for good measure.

I completely agree that the switch to the low-fat diet in the late 70s early 80s was completely wrong. Any student of Biochemistry can explain why. The switch to the wrong types of carbs exacerbated the problem.

I disagree with you regarding Insulin response to different foods. Different foods even different carbs produce significantly different insulin responses, this is well documented and understood. White bread differs from wholegrain/wholemeal. Insulin response is generally a good thing! It’s the nature of that response that’s the issue. Rapid spikes due to sudden simple sugar are to be avoided whereas a low-level background activity is a good thing.
Insulin’s ability to store excess calories has kept humans alive for millenia....

Other factors such as the satiating effects of foods also impact on calorie consumption while socio-economic factors influence food choices and consumption....

It’s not so simple.


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## Bill Gates (8 Feb 2020)

The slimming world method (they don't refer to it as a diet, a bit of a touchy subject), involves placing foods that are basically green vegetables (speed food) as a third of the plate. A certain amount of wholemeal bread (2 x slices) can be allowed on a daily basis as healthy extras. Other carbs are given a value also and if you add up the syn value and it is less than 15 for women and 20 for men. It becomes a tolerable method of weight loss. 

I lost 2.5 stones in 4 months on this diet. The science behind it is basically GI or if you prefer GL of the foods you are eating impacting on the raising of insulin levels. If you combine foods of a different GL in the same meal the impact on insulin levels is averaged out. This is why the green vegetables (speed food) should be a third of your plate thereby reducing the overall GL of the meal. 

This is a healthy way to lose weight and one that can be sustained in the long term. Of course where I have veered away is the way that fat is treated. They say to use low fat all the time, due to the calories involved.


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## The Jogger (8 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> I mostly agree, you can get enough carbs from green veg, but you need to eat a fair amount, carbs from beans, pulses, whole grains, spuds and squashes are generally fine too as part of a healthy diet.



FF why do you need to eat insulin spiking carbs like whole grains, spuds etc they are of very little benefit. They don't contain nutrients the body needs if anything they are detrimental to health. Wheat isn't the crop it was hundreds of years ago, hence the problems it causes peoples guts. 
When you go low carb, things like blood pressure drops, glucose drops, your body is getting the fat and cholesterol it needs. 
Unfortunately, money has influenced medical interventions, that's why there are so many people taking medications for diseases that can be sorted out through diet. There is no need for grain in the diet, none whatsoever.


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## Fab Foodie (8 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> FF why do you need to eat insulin spiking carbs like whole grains, spuds etc they are of very little benefit. They don't contain nutrients the body needs if anything they are detrimental to health. Wheat isn't the crop it was hundreds of years ago, hence the problems it causes peoples guts.
> When you go low carb, things like blood pressure drops, glucose drops, your body is getting the fat and cholesterol it needs.
> Unfortunately, money has influenced medical interventions, that's why there are so many people taking medications for diseases that can be sorted out through diet. There is no need for grain in the diet, none whatsoever.


Nonsense.

Wholegrains provide slow release energy, dietary fibre, vitamins and proteins. Potatoes likewise including vitamin C. Grains like wheat and rice (and products thereof) and many carb root crops sustain a large percentage of the global population without obesity or the associated health issues. 

Obesity is primarily a western/first world issue caused by overconsumption (of particularly refined foods) and semi-sedentary lifestyles. 
Keto and other such diets are simply methods to correct or compensate for poor diets or food choices in the first place.


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## classic33 (8 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> Wholegrains provide slow release energy, dietary fibre, vitamins and proteins. Potatoes likewise including vitamin C. Grains like wheat and rice (and products thereof) and many carb root crops sustain a large percentage of the global population without obesity or the associated health issues.
> 
> ...


The Ketogenic Diet was never meant to be a weight loss diet. It was intended to treat where medication had failed, epilepsy.

It's since been hijacked and promoted as the latest weight loss diet. It isn't.


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## Fab Foodie (8 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> The Ketogenic Diet was never meant to be a weight loss diet. It was intended to treat where medication had failed, epilepsy.
> 
> It's since been hijacked and promoted as the latest weight loss diet. It isn't.


At its simplest, Ketogenesis is the body’s survival mechanism when food and specifically carbohydrate is in short or non existent supply. Whilst most of the body’s cells can run on fat directly the brain cannot. The brain requires a lot of energy, really a lot, which it hoovers-up as glucose directly from the bloodstream. When there’s no carb left they switch to Ketone bodies from the breakdown of fat and supplied in the blood instead of glucose. A ketonic diet uses this near starvation adaptation of the human body.


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## classic33 (8 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> At its simplest, Ketogenesis is the body’s survival mechanism when food and specifically carbohydrate is in short or non existent supply. Whilst most of the body’s cells can run on fat directly the brain cannot. The brain requires a lot of energy, really a lot, which it hoovers-up as glucose directly from the bloodstream. When there’s no carb left they switch to Ketone bodies from the breakdown of fat and supplied in the blood instead of glucose. A ketonic diet uses this near starvation adaptation of the human body.


Which is why I said it's one that shouldn't be started without medical advice and supervision in the first few months.

Something that was rubbished, almost straight away.


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## The Jogger (8 Feb 2020)

I'm sorry but you're wrong, you're believing the lies you've been fed (pardon the pun) over the years.
This short clip talks about the carbs you have raised in defence of carbs and explains the problem.


View: https://youtu.be/QlxPAIlElu8


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## classic33 (8 Feb 2020)

I had it explained to me, by more than one person/team, with the chance to read up before trying the Ketogenic Diet.

Were they wrong in what they told me?

Unless "big pharma" has a finger in the system, they stood to loose. I went on it with an open mind, the same as I did with medication used previously, having had the chance to weigh the pro's and con's of each up. It didn't work for me, the same as many medications used. But that doesn't mean neither method won't work for someone else.


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## fossyant (8 Feb 2020)

I have a big issue here - these diets/etc are all over the "t-internet" like above... why... cash.....BLING.... nobody makes money out of eating a balanced diet. Banana man will be along shortly, oh no he wont, as he was banned.

Every week ITV have these 'diets' on TV - costing like £300 month to do... each... the TV programme needs taking off air.

You won't find nutritionalists promoting these diets. I couldn't articulate it better than Fab Foodie and he is a nutritional expert/scientist. 

A keto diet would kill my T1 son quite quickly... we all need a 'balanced' diet - keto (and others) will drop a load of weight quickly, but you can't live on it long term.


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## classic33 (9 Feb 2020)

On the epilepsy side, it's a maybe, when medication hasn't succeeded. No guarantee, just like medication.

This "diet" was intended as treatment for a condition, not a weight loss program. A 25 year study involving 15,000 people, found that it shortened the lifespan of those on it. Similar, smaller scale studies have returned similar results.

Check ...First do no harm  for why there was renewed interest in the diet itself. The story behind it is worth a read on it's own.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> I'm sorry but you're wrong, you're believing the lies you've been fed (pardon the pun) over the years.
> This short clip talks about the carbs you have raised in defence of carbs and explains the problem.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/QlxPAIlElu8




How are you feeling on keto? Personally I've never felt better If you do a search for ketogenic forums it's stacked full of accounts of people getting relief for lists of conditions too numerous to mention here. So where is the downside? For me it's part of my life style to live the rest of my life with energy and good health. Less likely (much less likely) to develop cancer or a heart attack and other conditions because I'm not causing my body inflammation from eating the foods that cause it. For me it's a no brainer..
I intend to be here in 10 years and still doing my spiderman press ups and pull ups that I'm doing now. Our critics can only dream of doing stuff like that.

BTW. you have to have an open mind to watch the video clips that's why they aren't watched. I've had the same with other threads. Instead you get trolled and bullied and name called. It doesn't do the perpetrators any credit but I guess it makes them feel better.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> I'm sorry but you're wrong, you're believing the lies you've been fed (pardon the pun) over the years.
> This short clip talks about the carbs you have raised in defence of carbs and explains the problem.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/QlxPAIlElu8



Thanks for the clip. 
And no, I’m not wrong either.

The first words he utters are referencing his discussion in terms of type 2 diabetes -which most people don’t have.

He also states that most people who develop type 2 diabetes have had diets high in sugar (which is unhealthy) not diets high in carbohydrates. As mentioned, Carbohydrate is a very broad classification that ranges from simple sugars via dextrins, starches (of which there is a huge variety), to plant fibres, gums, pectins etc. So to simply say ‘Carbs’ instead of sugars is misleading.

Agree that cooked starchy foods break down into sugar. That a slice of bread contains X grams of sugar is no surprise either. Brown rice and brown wholemeal bread contain slightly less starch than white versions due to the insoluble fibre content and thus gram for gram break down to slightly less sugar. However, the increased fibre content of brown rice and bread does help slow the breakdown of the starch and absorption of sugars. These are important points and why brown bread for example is NOT equivalent to high sugar. 

Look at the pages of Diabetes UK where the recommendations are not to avoid Carbs, but to switch to more complex and wholegrain types exactly as I’ve suggested. At no point do they suggest a Keto approach.

But that’s w.r.t type 2 Diabetes which again is very much a problem of the west/first world.

Carbs per se are not the devil, but an over-consumption of refined carbs and simple sugars is very problematic.

Again, a diet high in Carbs (but the complex varieties) has sustained and driven the growth of humans for millenia. It’s only in the last 50 years or so that ‘carbs’ as in refined/ simple sugars become an issue and that is because of overconsumption and poor dietary choices.

Eat Carbs in the form of wholegrains, beans pulses etc and you’ll be fine. Carb based foods (which are of course plant based) are the mainstay of the planet. Eating more meat (for high protein), fat or becoming Keto is not the answer either, being more vegetarian, obtaining more protein from plants probably is....

It’s much more complex than youtube clips and magazine articles suggest.


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## The Jogger (9 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> I have a big issue here - these diets/etc are all over the "t-internet" like above... why... cash.....BLING.... nobody makes money out of eating a balanced diet. Banana man will be along shortly, oh no he wont, as he was banned.
> 
> Every week ITV have these 'diets' on TV - costing like £300 month to do... each... the TV programme needs taking off air.
> 
> ...




Let's take your last point first.
Nobody has suggested a T1 diabetic should go on a low carb diet, it is different to a t2 diabetic.
Nobody makes money out of people eating a low carb diet, you cut out carbs like bread, pasta, flour and most people get great results. So called balanced diets are all over the internet too that do make money, WW, SW etc. 
Were as the low carb diet often reduces the need for medications, the loser here is the drug pushers as in big pharmaceuticals. 

Why there is so much opposition to the LCHF diet is down to the brain washing we all received growing up. Our GPs in training get very little education on diet and nutrition. But they are quick to prescribe drugs before looking at other solutions although this is changing, let's not talk about opiates. You may try to say this is a fad diet but scientific evidence is proof that low carb eating is not.


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## The Jogger (9 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> How are you feeling on keto? Personally I've never felt better If you do a search for ketogenic forums it's stacked full of accounts of people getting relief for lists of conditions too numerous to mention here. So where is the downside? For me it's part of my life style to live the rest of my life with energy and good health. Less likely (much less likely) to develop cancer or a heart attack and other conditions because I'm not causing my body inflammation from eating the foods that cause it. For me it's a no brainer..
> I intend to be here in 10 years and still doing my spiderman press ups and pull ups that I'm doing now. Our critics can only dream of doing stuff like that.
> 
> BTW. you have to have an open mind to watch the video clips that's why they aren't watched. I've had the same with other threads. Instead you get trolled and bullied and name called. It doesn't do the perpetrators any credit but I guess it makes them feel better.


Hi Bill
Keto lchf has been good for me, not getting the highs and lows, losing a bit of weight, blood pressure down and not taking any meds as discussed with my GP we monitor it.
Before I had lack of energy, fluctuating bp more weight than I wanted. The evidence was out there and it proved to be correct. Unlike the yoyo dieting and the cut fat rubbish still being rolled out. The government should address the sugar issues in all it's forms but they need the coffers they get from the industry.


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## The Jogger (9 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Thanks for the clip.
> And no, I’m not wrong either.
> 
> The first words he utters are referencing his discussion in terms of type 2 diabetes -which most people don’t have.
> ...



Thanks for your detailed reply but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. It's not just about YouTube clips, for me personally I have done lots of research, including many books by various authors, professors, doctors etc.
IMHO there is a big change to low carb high fat eating, it's good to have an open mind when looking at this way of eating and for me whole grain, lentils etc didn't work from puy lentils, quinoa, chick peas wheaten bread, been there done that but this lchf works.


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## BoldonLad (9 Feb 2020)

I have no idea the "science" behind this diet, but....

My oldest daughter is a serial dieter, over the past 30 years she has done a pretty thorough job of trying them all... weight watchers, red/green days, etc etc etc, none of them work.

The latest, is based on this "Keto" stuff. She started about two years ago. Initially, it "worked", in that weight reduced, but, the weight did not stay off. She is now on another round of "keto dieting", ahead of her daughters wedding.

Although I say supportive things, I do not expect a successful outcome.  A change of lifestyle is required. IMHO.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Hi Bill
> Keto lchf has been good for me, not getting the highs and lows, losing a bit of weight, blood pressure down and not taking any meds as discussed with my GP we monitor it.
> Before I had lack of energy, fluctuating bp more weight than I wanted. The evidence was out there and it proved to be correct. Unlike the yoyo dieting and the cut fat rubbish still being rolled out. The government should address the sugar issues in all it's forms but they need the coffers they get from the industry.


Very pleased to hear it. It might take a few years yet. There would have to be an acknowledgement by the powers that be they had got it wrong for 40 years. You are fortunate that your GP supports you. The evidence shows that the keto diet reduces the small particle LDL part of cholesterol and that is the main cause of atherosclerosis. Yet when my wife had her blood test at our local surgery she was told that they only look at the overall levels of cholesterol these days. WTF you cannot take these people seriously. They just don't know. They have their guidelines and that's the end of it.


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## Magpies (9 Feb 2020)

I'm curious as to whether there is any firm evidence that a ketogenic diet can make 'fatty liver' better or worse. Several health websites claim the diet can improve the condition, but I haven't found any firm evidence one way or the other. I'm talking about the kind of fatty liver disease unconnected with alcohol, of course.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

Magpies said:


> I'm curious as to whether there is any firm evidence that a ketogenic diet can make 'fatty liver' better or worse. Several health websites claim the diet can improve the condition, but I haven't found any firm evidence one way or the other. I'm talking about the kind of fatty liver disease unconnected with alcohol, of course.


There is a ketogenic forum and it might be worth putting your query there as there is every chance a member can give you a qualified answer


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

You know the skin tags you get over the years and moles that appear; well one thing I've noticed recently is that the skin tags are shrivelling up and falling off and likewise the moles. Just a moment ago I felt a spot on my upper lip and scraped my finger nail over it and it popped out. Then I realised it was a mole I've had since whenever I can remember.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Thanks for your detailed reply but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this.


That's OK, everyone is welcome to try what they wish.

I just urge caution. I would say the jury out on Keto at the moment, but that's not to say that it doesn't have some benefits. We ended-up in the 'Low Fat/high Carb' spiral because of some evangelist quoted some 'research' and sold his seemingly obvious story about fat making you fat, to the western world.... As it happens I never agreed with it then nor do I now - at the time I too was arguing against the tide of 'evidence'.

For every pro-something there is much 'evidence' for anti-something, people like to have agendas, Doctors, researchers et al are no different (Vaccines and Autism anyone?)*. There are evangelists on here and elsewherefor x,y,z that whilst enthusiastic, convincing and well-meaning are not qualified to promote or advise others** (antivaxxers on the interwebs) Hell I might be one too... 
There is good research and poor research and anecdata. There are myriad conspiracy theories and I don't buy them either.

Right now I see no wider acceptance of Keto in any community/nation/pro-sport etc. suggesting this is method for improved health and life.
I would rather look at the big/global picture (a kind of meta-experiment) which I think tells an important story about diets, lifestyles and and health.



*For this I recommend the 'Angry Chef' and 'Bad Science'...

**I am not a Doctor, nor a Nutritionist (though my Daughter is). As a Food Technologist with a degree in Biochemistry with some 35 years of working in the global food R&D and industry, I have spent a lot of time watching ideas/trends/diets/hea;lth advice come and go, attended conferences and seminars on health/nutrition, followed eating and lifestyle trends, and now have to listen to my far more learned daughter. One soon starts to realise that many modern health issues are a western/first world illness caused by simple over-consumption of heavily processed food, foods high in simple sugars and empty calories and insufficient diversity of natural foodstuffs and fibres. Restrictive diets in any shape are form are not the answer either (and that includes veganism - shock horror).

Good luck, report back.


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## Milzy (9 Feb 2020)

Diet Diet Diet BS, train hard and you can still eat chocolate, bread drink beers & be lean. Just need fair portions & consistency in training.
Good day.


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## vickster (9 Feb 2020)

Milzy said:


> Diet Diet Diet BS, train hard and you can still eat chocolate, bread drink beers & be lean. Just need fair portions & consistency in training.
> Good day.


What's training got to do with it? For what? The OP has another thread about training, but I don't think it's him doing the racing?
Pretty sure pro athletes in training do monitor what they are eating pretty carefully as part of their preparation


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## Milzy (9 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> What's training got to do with it? For what? The OP has another thread about training, but I don't think it's him doing the racing?
> Pretty sure pro athletes in training do monitor what they are eating pretty carefully as part of their preparation


Who's a pro athlete on here? Regular exercise and a balanced diet is all you need. Think I'll leave these guys to argue about their fad diets and be insulting to one another instead of waking anymore sleeping Giants.


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## vickster (9 Feb 2020)

Milzy said:


> Who's a pro athlete on here? Regular exercise and a balanced diet is all you need. Think I'll leave these guys to argue about their fad diets and be insulting to one another instead of waking anymore sleeping Giants.


You referred specifically to training though and being able to eat and drink anything if train hard enough. That’s very different to having a healthy and balanced lifestyle 
I take regular exercise for example but I’m not ‘training’


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## Milzy (9 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> You referred specifically to training though and being able to eat and drink anything if train hard enough. That’s very different to having a healthy and balanced lifestyle
> I take regular exercise for example but I’m not ‘training’


If you're doing plenty of exercise you don't need to worry as much as a sofa surfer would do.


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## vickster (9 Feb 2020)

Milzy said:


> If you're doing plenty of exercise you don't need to worry as much as a sofa surfer would do.


Indeed, probably true but you didn’t say that


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

Milzy said:


> If you're doing plenty of exercise you don't need to worry as much as a sofa surfer would do.



I’ve never stood on my sofa and struck a surfing pose. Maybe something to try.


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## Milzy (9 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> I’ve never stood on my sofa and struck a surfing pose. Maybe something to try.


Put Beach boys music on very loud, but don't wipe out by falling off.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

Milzy said:


> Put Beach boys music on very loud, but don't wipe out by falling off.



Could open the windows right now and get that sea spray feeling as well.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

Milzy said:


> Diet Diet Diet BS, train hard and you can still eat chocolate, bread drink beers & be lean. Just need fair portions & consistency in training.
> Good day.


You might like to check out the start of this thread. Prof Tim Noakes was an elite marathon runner who wrote the book on loading up on carbs before an endurance event. Decades later he kept up his fitness regime and was still getting fat on high carb diet. It's not the exercise. Now he totally believes he was 100% wrong. Please if you've got time check out the video clips on the first page.


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## srw (9 Feb 2020)

Threads like this advocating unusual restrictive diets always become pseudo-science quickly - and this one's no exception.

So far as I can tell (and I'm no scientist but I've read a fair bit and have a nose for bullshit) there are only three things to remember when it comes to diet.

1. Some physics - the law of the conversation of energy means that the only way to lose weight is to consume fewer calories than you expend and the only way to gain weight is to consume more calories than you expend.

2. Some evolutionary biology - we evolved to consume an opportunistic but omnivorous diet. Our bodies are machines that are optimised to consume more calories than we need when it's available, and from any source at all, so that we can survive what were historically inevitable periods of famine. We also evolved big brains and efficient bodies - so that the bulk of our food energy goes on keeping us alive, and the marginal extra amount we can burn by exercise or training is relatively small.

3. Some psychology - we find it very difficult to resist marketing or cravings and incredibly difficult to change habits - especially when we are voluntarily starving ourselves (which is what a weight-loss diet is trying to do).

By all means try and lose weight by pretending that you're on a keto diet (you're probably not) or go vegan or cut out milk or gluten or use intermittent fasting - but unless you're one of the very small minority of people for whom cutting out a particular kind of food is a medical necessity all you're doing is using restrictive eating as a method of cutting your calorie intake relative to your activity levels. Which is fine until that restrictive eating gets in the way of other things you want to achieve - like cycling, or socialising, or enjoying eating.

As it happens I'm currently having some success losing weight by tracking my food, having no alcohol and no cakes or biscuits - but I'm not going to pretend it's a long-term solution. In fact, when I reach a goal weight I will have a different challenge, of eating the right amount to maintain weight.


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## srw (9 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Prof Tim Noakes was an elite marathon runner who wrote the book on loading up on carbs before an endurance event. Decades later he kept up his fitness regime and was still getting fat on high carb diet. It's not the exercise. Now he totally believes he was 100% wrong. Please if you've got time check out the video clips on the first page.


That's rather like saying you should listen to Nigel Lawson on Climate Change. Noakes isn't an expert on diet, he's an expert on sports science, and particularly on what happens if you drink too much water after a marathon. If he was getting fat on a high carb diet it's because he was eating too much relative to his energy expenditure - unless he's claiming to have discovered a counter-example to the law of the conservation of energy? Which would mean he'd deserve a Nobel prize.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

srw said:


> Threads like this advocating unusual restrictive diets always become pseudo-science quickly - and this one's no exception.
> 
> So far as I can tell (and I'm no scientist but I've read a fair bit and have a nose for bullshit) there are only three things to remember when it comes to diet.
> 
> ...





srw said:


> That's rather like saying you should listen to Nigel Lawson on Climate Change. Noakes isn't an expert on diet, he's an expert on sports science, and particularly on what happens if you drink too much water after a marathon. If he was getting fat on a high carb diet it's because he was eating too much relative to his energy expenditure - unless he's claiming to have discovered a counter-example to the law of the conservation of energy? Which would mean he'd deserve a Nobel prize.


goodness me. Crack on mate. I'm not bothering


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

srw said:


> Threads like this advocating unusual restrictive diets always become pseudo-science quickly - and this one's no exception.
> 
> So far as I can tell (and I'm no scientist but I've read a fair bit and have a nose for bullshit) there are only three things to remember when it comes to diet.
> 
> ...


Too much to bother with Crack on


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

srw said:


> That's rather like saying you should listen to Nigel Lawson on Climate Change. Noakes isn't an expert on diet, he's an expert on sports science, and particularly on what happens if you drink too much water after a marathon. If he was getting fat on a high carb diet it's because he was eating too much relative to his energy expenditure - unless he's claiming to have discovered a counter-example to the law of the conservation of energy? Which would mean he'd deserve a Nobel prize.


Calories in calories out eh? bullshit


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5o0a4p_3U&t=254s


Please watch this and then come back and say the same again. You won't because you won't watch it.

I totally refute everything you posted. Parts of it are such unbelievable nonsense that it's difficult to know where to start. So I'm not bothering. Cravings are psychological WTF. I can see nothing but vitriol ahead so I won't be responding to your posts.


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## The Jogger (9 Feb 2020)

Surely this is a contradiction, is it not?


srw said:


> Threads like this advocating unusual restrictive diets always become pseudo-science quickly - and this one's no exception.





srw said:


> As it happens I'm currently having some success losing weight by tracking my food, having no alcohol and no cakes or biscuits - but I'm not going to pretend it's a long-term solution. In fact, when I reach a goal weight I will have a different challenge, of eating the right amount to maintain weight.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

Q


Bill Gates said:


> Calories in calories out eh? bullshit
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F5o0a4p_3U&t=254s
> ...



Do you ever wonder why you antagonise people?


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Q
> 
> Do you ever wonder why you antagonise people?


SRW coined the bull sh1t phrase in his first post. It's not unreasonable for me to return the compliment. plus you liked his post. what's there to like about it. it's nonsense.
I've tried to behave in a civilised manner on this thread and up until now ive done well. maybe I've let myself down leopard spots and all that
When you're naturally grumpy it will out. I can't help it


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

Anyhow, back to the topic of Keto And diets Obesity and foodstuffs etc....

I watched the video, it was for me 37 mins of my life I won’t get back. Apart from some neat story telling and obfuscation, there was nothing new or revelatory and backs-up my points about not eating refined carbs. The role of insulin is well known and well documented. Nearly 20 years ago I sat through seminars on Syndrome X/Metabolic syndrome. So it’s old-hat.
Furthermore It does not dispel the statement by @srw regarding calories in and out. The laws of thermodynamics still apply, I think if they had been broken it might have made the news - so this aspect was very misleading or unexplained.
Dr Feung is a good (if not irritating imo) presenter. He used some facts and data, always a good thing.

Now it was holocaust week last week. These were people on calorie restricted diets and they lost weight. The prisoners who built the Malay/Burma railways worked hard on restricted calorie diets and they lost weight. I would like to hear his answers.
He offered little in the way of practical solutions but maybe that’s in another lecture or book.

Many traditional societies have eaten carbohydrate-based diets without suffering from rampant obesity. In the 1970s, before the obesity epidemic, the Irish were loving their potatoes. The Asians were loving their white rice. The French were loving their bread.
Many traditional societies have eaten carbohydrate-based diets without suffering from rampant obesity. In the 1970s, before the obesity epidemic, the Irish were loving their potatoes. The Asians were loving their white rice. The French were loving their bread.
Even in America, let’s remember the 1970s. Disco was sweeping the nation. Star Wars and Jaws played to packed theatres. If you looked at an old photograph from that era, perhaps you might be amazed at several things. First, why anybody ever thought bell bottoms were cool. Second, it’s amazing just how little obesity there is. Take a look at some old high school yearbooks from the 1970s. There is virtually no obesity. Perhaps one child in a hundred.
What was the diet of the 1970s? They were eating white bread and jam. They were eating ice cream. They were eating Oreo cookies. There were not eating whole-wheat pasta. They were not eating quinoa. They were not eating kale. They were not counting calories. They were not counting net carbs. They were not even really exercising much. These people were doing everything ‘wrong’ yet, seemingly effortlessly, there was no obesity. Why?
What about the diet of the Chinese in the 1980s? They were eating tons of white rice. On average, over 300 grams per day, compared to a low carb diet of less than 50 grams and all highly refined. Yet they had virtually no obesity. Why?
What about the diet of the Okinawan? Over 80% carbohydrates, and mostly sweet potato, which has some sugar in it. What about the Irish in the 1970s, with their beloved beer and potatoes? They didn’t think twice about what they were eating, but until recently there was almost no obesity. Why?
The answer is simple. When you don’t eat, this is technically known as ‘fasting’. This is the reason there is the English word ‘break fast’ or breakfast, the meal that breaks your fast. During your sleep, you are (presumably) not eating and therefore fasting. This allows time for your body to digest the foods, process the nutrients and burn the rest for energy to power your vital organs and muscles. In order to maintain a stable weight, you must balance feeding and fasting.
During feeding, you store food energy as body fat. During fasting, you burn body fat for energy. If you balance those two, your weight will remain stable. If you are predominantly feeding, you will gain weight. If you are predominantly fasting, you will lose weight. Unfortunately, most nutritional authorities tell you the exact opposite. Instead, it may be better to use intermittent fasting to lose weight.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> SRW coined the bull sh1t phrase in his first post. It's not unreasonable for me to return the compliment. plus you liked his post. what's there to like about it. it's nonsense.
> I've tried to behave in a civilised manner on this thread and up until now ive done well. maybe I've let myself down leopard spots and all that
> When you're naturally grumpy it will out. I can't help it


But @srw was right. The laws of thermodynamics still apply....


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## BoldonLad (9 Feb 2020)

Coul


Fab Foodie said:


> Anyhow, back to the topic of Keto And diets Obesity and foodstuffs etc....
> 
> I watched the video, it was for me 37 mins of my life I won’t get back. Apart from some neat story telling and obfuscation, there was nothing new or revelatory and backs-up my points about not eating refined carbs. The role of insulin is well known and well documented. Nearly 20 years ago I sat through seminars on Syndrome X/Metabolic syndrome. So it’s old-hat.
> Furthermore It does not dispel the statement by @srw regarding calories in and out. The laws of thermodynamics still apply, I think if they had been broken it might have made the news - so this aspect was very misleading or unexplained.
> ...


Couldn’t agree more. I was born in 1947. Some of the things I (and other children) ate, were frightenly fat and carbohydrates laden (chips, cooked in dripping, potatoes, bread, Jam, etc etc). There was very little obesity. I our intake of sweets was severely limited, by money and lack of availability), we walked to school, played in the street, etc etc.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Anyhow, back to the topic of Keto And diets Obesity and foodstuffs etc....
> 
> I watched the video, it was for me 37 mins of my life I won’t get back. Apart from some neat story telling and obfuscation, there was nothing new or revelatory and backs-up my points about not eating refined carbs. The role of insulin is well known and well documented. Nearly 20 years ago I sat through seminars on Syndrome X/Metabolic syndrome. So it’s old-hat.
> Furthermore It does not dispel the statement by @srw regarding calories in and out. The laws of thermodynamics still apply, I think if they had been broken it might have made the news - so this aspect was very misleading or unexplained.
> ...


In the context of the post


Fab Foodie said:


> Anyhow, back to the topic of Keto And diets Obesity and foodstuffs etc....
> 
> I watched the video, it was for me 37 mins of my life I won’t get back. Apart from some neat story telling and obfuscation, there was nothing new or revelatory and backs-up my points about not eating refined carbs. The role of insulin is well known and well documented. Nearly 20 years ago I sat through seminars on Syndrome X/Metabolic syndrome. So it’s old-hat.
> Furthermore It does not dispel the statement by @srw regarding calories in and out. The laws of thermodynamics still apply, I think if they had been broken it might have made the news - so this aspect was very misleading or unexplained.
> ...


All very good. I'm impressed. no I'm very very impressed.

In the context of what we are discussing for this thread re the keto diet, i.e high fat low carb versus low fat high carb -
We should compare a calorie of a a refined carbohydrate ingested to a calorie of an MCT oil.
There is an immediate difference as to how that calorie is metabolised. The carb calorie will go to fat stores and the MCT calorie to instant energy.
If you are not exercising this MCT calorie could be expended as heat, i.e. got rid of without you even noticing. This satisfies your law of thermodynamics. So it's not as simple as calories in same as calories out in relation to how it has an effect on the body. The type of calorie you ingest is the key here.

I had a bullet proof coffee at lunchtime, Butter and Coconut Oil blended in coffee maybe around 300 calories or so. That's gone out in burned energy by now. if I had eaten a bowl of rice 300 calories my insulin levels would have gone up and the calories stored as fat. Plus the body feels satiated from the drink but not from the rice which would cause a craving for more carbs.

OK. Notwithstanding you like his law on thermodynamics what about the rest of what he posted. Do you agree with that?


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Surely this is a contradiction, is it not?


Trust your instincts. My instinct is full steam ahead on keto. Absolutely nothing I've seen, heard, felt, smelt or tasted has influenced me in a negative way whatsoever.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> In the context of the post
> 
> All very good. I'm impressed. no I'm very very impressed.
> 
> ...


Please don’t be impressed, I copied and pasted the bit about traditional societies, fasting for weight control etc. onwards....

I have already explained what I thought. His attempt to dismiss the law of thermodynamics is nonsense and the rest about the impact of Insulin I know and understand.

Now, why don’t you explain to me the benefit of MCT?
I reckon as it’s a fat, when it’s if taken- up by the body then it’s either burned which means it’s calories or it’s used to synthesise other molecules such as membranes, hormones etc (which one might argue contributes to mass). As a fat it will have little impact on Insulin response like other fats.

So what’s the deal with MCT?


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

By the way for the record, and if you read what I have written, I am not and have NEVER EVER been a supporter of a high carb diets for exactly the same reason (insulin response) as proffered by Dr Feung. I have believed this since the early 80s when Dr Feung waa probably in nappies!


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## classic33 (9 Feb 2020)

It's a supplement, and he doesn't do supplements.


_"MCT oil is a dietary supplement that is made up of MCT fats, which are fats that can be found in coconut oil, palm kernel oil, and dairy products."_

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320251.php


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

MCT is an intercellular transport protein involved in transporting lactate across cell membranes. The amount of MCT can be increased through training and is why elites have exceptionally low lactate levels at high intensities.

See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805372/


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Please don’t be impressed, I copied and pasted the bit about traditional societies, fasting for weight control etc. onwards....
> 
> I have already explained what I thought. His attempt to dismiss the law of thermodynamics is nonsense and the rest about the impact of Insulin I know and understand.
> 
> ...


Hi there again. 

My understanding of MCT (Medium Chain Triglyceride) is that it is a fat that is made up of strings of carbon atoms that have a linear link of 6 -8 carbon atoms. When this is ingested it is absorbed like other essential nutrients through the portal vein and then straight into the liver. Within minutes the fat is converted into ketones and transported by the blood to the muscles (mitochondria) for energy. (my science might not be spot on here but should be close enough for this purpose)

I do know that for Coconut Oil 15% is a MCT and the rest is made of Long chain Triglycerides (10/12 atoms) that are treated as normal fat like olive oil. None of it has any impact on insulin as you would know.


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> It's a supplement, and he doesn't do supplements.
> 
> 
> _"MCT oil is a dietary supplement that is made up of MCT fats, which are fats that can be found in coconut oil, palm kernel oil, and dairy products."_
> ...


Coconut oil isn't a supplement. And I do do supplements. As mentioned in one of my first posts I take Omega 3 oil with vitamin D.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

I’m referring to monocarboxylate) transport protein (MCT) so confusingly different based on what you are describing.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> I’m referring to monocarboxylate) transport protein (MCT) so confusingly different based on what you are describing.


Actually more interesting from a quick read!


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> MCT is an intercellular transport protein involved in transporting lactate across cell membranes. The amount of MCT can be increased through training and is why elites have exceptionally low lactate levels at high intensities.
> 
> See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805372/


I don't understand any of that link. Above my pay grade

edit: See its an error. Thank God for that I was worried for a minute


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

Taken from the summary of another peer reviewed scientific article.

“It is now known that lactate traverses the plasma membrane of many tissues, including heart and muscle, via a stereo-specific, pH-dependent monocarboxylate transport (MCT) system. In the past few years a family of MCTs (MCT1–MCT7) has been cloned.

Transcripts of MCT1 and MCT4 are detectable in rat and human skeletal muscle and in the heart. However, only skeletal muscle expresses both the MCT1 and MCT4 proteins, whereas rat heart expresses the MCT1, but not the MCT4 protein. The kinetic activities of MCT1(_K_ m=3.5 mM) and MCT4 (_K_ m=17–34 mM) are quite different.

Among rat muscles, MCT1 expression is highly correlated with the oxidative fiber composition of the muscle, and other indices of oxidative metabolism.

Lactate uptake from the circulation is also highly correlated with the MCT1 content of muscles. MCT4 is confined to fast-twitch (fast glycolytic and fast oxidative glycolytic) muscle fibers, in which MCT4 content is correlated with indices of anaerobic metabolism. Collectively, these data suggest that MCT1 and MCT4 are primarily responsible for lactate uptake from the circulation and lactate extrusion out of muscle, respectively.

Exercise training can increase the expression of both MCT1 and MCT4 in human muscle, although the extent of this up-regulation may be related to the intensity of training. In the rat heart, MCT1 expression is induced more easily by exercise training than in rat skeletal muscle.

It appears that MCT1 and MCT4 expression are regulated in a tissue-specific and isoform-specific manner. Therefore, skeletal muscle lactate concentrations are not only regulated by the rate of glycolysis, but also by the efficiency of trans-sarcolemmal lactate transport, a process that is regulated by the quantity of available MCT proteins.”


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## Bill Gates (9 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> It is now known that lactate traverses the plasma membrane of many tissues, including heart and muscle, via a stereo-specific, pH-dependent monocarboxylate transport (MCT) system. In the past few years a family of MCTs (MCT1–MCT7) has been cloned.
> 
> Transcripts of MCT1 and MCT4 are detectable in rat and human skeletal muscle and in the heart. However, only skeletal muscle expresses both the MCT1 and MCT4 proteins, whereas rat heart expresses the MCT1, but not the MCT4 protein. The kinetic activities of MCT1(_K_ m=3.5 mM) and MCT4 (_K_ m=17–34 mM) are quite different.
> 
> ...


All very interesting I'm sure. I think that you might be a tad off topic with this.

So what does it mean in Layman terms?


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Actually more interesting from a quick read!



It is I discovered it when looking at what changes in physiology different training emphasises and why. It’s quite fascinating what is going on particularly with Glycosis arising from burning glucose and what the full cycle is.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> All very interesting I'm sure. I think that you might be a tad off topic with this.
> 
> So what does it mean in Layman terms?



It is core to physiology of fat vs. carb burning and what is going on including ketones. So I know science isn’t your strong point but give them a read.

There is some interesting discussion and real measurement on what is happening when you train such that your physiology is better able to utilise fats as fuel. All without changing your diet.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> It is I discovered it when looking at what changes in physiology different training emphasises and why. It’s quite fascinating what is going on particularly with Glycosis arising from burning glucose and what the full cycle is.


It’s all a bit beyond me these days! The closest I got to Biochemistry greatness was meeting Hans Krebbs grandaughter :-)


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> It’s all a bit beyond me these days! The closest I got to Biochemistry greatness was meeting Hans Krebbs grandaughter :-)



Was she on her cycle made by her grandad?


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## Fab Foodie (9 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Was she on her cycle made by her grandad?


Ha! She was a Science teacher at Didcot School for girls....


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## HMS_Dave (9 Feb 2020)

If i may. I have been on a weight loss journey for 6 months. I didn't really look too much into Keto, Juicing, Soup or Pillock diets... I just cut out breads, starch and refined breakfast cereals. I eat porridge with a spoon of honey and sultanas every morning and only occasionally eat pasta and increased veggie intake. I never even considered this a fad diet, just i though it was a common sense approach due to what others eat on diets. I first picked up on this thread a few weeks back and i did some reading and wondered. I since ordered some pee sticks that measure Ketones and it turns out there is slight colour on the stick indicating mild Ketosis. Im very surprised at this. I don't eat high fat at all, the opposite in fact. I don't snack at all, i will simple eat a piece of fruit straight after my meal and then gulp a a load of water which fills me up. Having lots of weight to lose im assuming is the reason why im inadvertently in ketosis but i feel alright, saying that i can't necessarily say i have been in Ketosis for 6 months, im probably dipping in and out of it but i will monitor it from now on purely out of interest...


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> If i may. I have been on a weight loss journey for 6 months. I didn't really look too much into Keto, Juicing, Soup or Pillock diets... I just cut out breads, starch and refined breakfast cereals. I eat porridge with a spoon of honey and sultanas every morning and only occasionally eat pasta and increased veggie intake. I never even considered this a fad diet, just i though it was a common sense approach due to what others eat on diets. I first picked up on this thread a few weeks back and i did some reading and wondered. I since ordered some pee sticks that measure Ketones and it turns out there is slight colour on the stick indicating mild Ketosis. Im very surprised at this. I don't eat high fat at all, the opposite in fact. I don't snack at all, i will simple eat a piece of fruit straight after my meal and then gulp a a load of water which fills me up. Having lots of weight to lose im assuming is the reason why im inadvertently in ketosis but i feel alright, saying that i can't necessarily say i have been in Ketosis for 6 months, im probably dipping in and out of it but i will monitor it from now on purely out of interest...


I think that is a very practical and sustainable way forward. 
It still allows you to enjoy a wide range of foodstuffs (for the pleasure of eating) and replacing refined foods with more veggies is a very good thing. I’m not convinced that high fat is a requirement at all, though it does aid satiety and dampens the rate of sugar uptake by the body which reduces insulin spikes -a good thing which everybody agrees.
How is the weight loss going?
How do you feel?


----------



## The Jogger (10 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> If i may. I have been on a weight loss journey for 6 months. I didn't really look too much into Keto, Juicing, Soup or Pillock diets... I just cut out breads, starch and refined breakfast cereals. I eat porridge with a spoon of honey and sultanas every morning and only occasionally eat pasta and increased veggie intake. I never even considered this a fad diet, just i though it was a common sense approach due to what others eat on diets. I first picked up on this thread a few weeks back and i did some reading and wondered. I since ordered some pee sticks that measure Ketones and it turns out there is slight colour on the stick indicating mild Ketosis. Im very surprised at this. I don't eat high fat at all, the opposite in fact. I don't snack at all, i will simple eat a piece of fruit straight after my meal and then gulp a a load of water which fills me up. Having lots of weight to lose im assuming is the reason why im inadvertently in ketosis but i feel alright, saying that i can't necessarily say i have been in Ketosis for 6 months, im probably dipping in and out of it but i will monitor it from now on purely out of interest...


What you seem to have done is cut down a bit on your carbs, although still eating some. If it works for you and you feel good then it's good. How much weight have you dropped?
The problem with this thread is you get some people on here calling other peoples choice of eating , a fad diet.
In reality I choose to cut crap (imo) like bread, pasta, spuds and eat things like cheese, cream, fatty cuts of meat, pork belly, sirloin with fat on and salads or veggies. Because this goes against the so called norm or food pyramid, it's a fad diet or even dangerous.
It's good that people share what works for them without the diet police stepping in. Complicating simple steps, with high brow science when in reality it's simple science. Bullet proof type coffee for example, butter, coconut oil and coffee whipped up, staves off hunger, gives energy without eating or raising insulin, again down to choice.
Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.


No there is no argument unless you can demonstrate an oddity it the laws of thermodynamics. Anything else is semantics and obfuscation.


The Jogger said:


> What you seem to have done is cut down a bit on your carbs, although still eating some. If it works for you and you feel good then it's good. How much weight have you dropped?
> The problem with this thread is you get some people on here calling other peoples choice of eating , a fad diet.
> In reality I choose to cut crap (imo) like bread, pasta, spuds and eat things like cheese, cream, fatty cuts of meat, pork belly, sirloin with fat on and salads or veggies. Because this goes against the so called norm or food pyramid, it's a fad diet or even dangerous.
> It's good that people share what works for them without the diet police stepping in. Complicating simple steps, with high brow science when in reality it's simple science. Bullet proof type coffee for example, butter, coconut oil and coffee whipped up, staves off hunger,* gives energy without eating* or raising insulin, again down to choice.
> Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.


This perfectly demonstrates your point! It has been eaten, it can't give energy otherwise! You can see where confusion reigns....

The other issue regarding 'fad/alternative' diets is that whilst they may well cure one problem i.e weight-loss, they may cause myriad other problems regarding cancer, inflammation, cholesterol, osteoporosis etc. etc. These things take a long time and a lot of research and data to asses. Because somebody plucks some experience or research out of the air, creates a great story and sells it as the next best thing doesn't mean it's healthy in the long term. That's why skepticism should rightly abound - Because A. Celeb feels great on Goji Berries, fag-ends and Colonic irrigation does not make it a basis for anything. That's why diets should be denounced as fads until there is some longer-term and solid 3rd party reviewed evidence to support it.

The role of Insulin which we have been discussing on and off for example has now been studied by sufficient august bodies over a long enough period of time to draw a pretty firm conclusion over it's importance in regulating blood sugar, driving excess towards fat synthesis (and some other effects). Right now I don't think there is much dispute over it having a significant role in Obesity and weight-loss.
It might be the same with Keto. We understand the basic mechanisms of what it does and how, the short-term effects are fairly well documented in terms of weight-loss etc, effect on blood cholesterol etc. etc. What i think is still not known are the longer term effects or impacts of such a diet on wider society.
I can assure you, that if any nation or peoples found a provable long-term magic bullet diet to pitch to its citizens that kept them healthier and reduced the health burden on the state, they would be rushing towards it.

But look around, there are advocates with 'science' for Keto, Vegan, low carb, LCHF, LF, Paleo, Mediterranean, FODMAP, WW, Atkins, The Zone Diet, Food Combining, the 5:2 Diet, The Dukan Diet, the South Beach Diet etc, they can't all be right (except potentially in Insulin management)....but there adherents can 'prove' that they not only work, but are long-term sustainable, healthy and will let you live trouble free until forever....

I simply advocate caution and try to frame the 'Science' in some kind of reality..


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## HMS_Dave (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> I think that is a very practical and sustainable way forward.
> It still allows you to enjoy a wide range of foodstuffs (for the pleasure of eating) and replacing refined foods with more veggies is a very good thing. I’m not convinced that high fat is a requirement at all, though it does aid satiety and dampens the rate of sugar uptake by the body which reduces insulin spikes -a good thing which everybody agrees.
> How is the weight loss going?
> How do you feel?





The Jogger said:


> What you seem to have done is cut down a bit on your carbs, although still eating some. If it works for you and you feel good then it's good. How much weight have you dropped?
> The problem with this thread is you get some people on here calling other peoples choice of eating , a fad diet.
> In reality I choose to cut crap (imo) like bread, pasta, spuds and eat things like cheese, cream, fatty cuts of meat, pork belly, sirloin with fat on and salads or veggies. Because this goes against the so called norm or food pyramid, it's a fad diet or even dangerous.
> It's good that people share what works for them without the diet police stepping in. Complicating simple steps, with high brow science when in reality it's simple science. Bullet proof type coffee for example, butter, coconut oil and coffee whipped up, staves off hunger, gives energy without eating or raising insulin, again down to choice.
> Calories in calories out is another argument, although again I believe that opinion is changing but everyone has their own view.


I am 20 stone 4 now. Started at 27 in August. Still obese of course but I dont feel it. I'm fitter due to exercise but my muscles had clearly adapted to moving a big heavy lump about. I feel extremely well and energetic which encourages me to do more and more. My weight loss has been quite steady and at a pace I'm happy with, naturally it is slowing down but that is to be expected. I went in knowing I was lowering carbs, but I did that also knowing that high Insulin levels and resistance that typically accompany big people slows down weight loss and in fact will do the opposite. Ketosis wasn't even on my radar. But seemingly it has played a factor and I can only say that I feel good, energetic and have a positive state of mind. I wonder if its down to having a large amount of weight to lose. I'm clearly burning body fat for energy. Quite interesting all this and I'm keen to learn more...


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> I am 20 stone 4 now. Started at 27 in August. Still obese of course but I dont feel it. I'm fitter due to exercise but my muscles had clearly adapted to moving a big heavy lump about. I feel extremely well and energetic which encourages me to do more and more. My weight loss has been quite steady and at a pace I'm happy with, naturally it is slowing down but that is to be expected. I went in knowing I was lowering carbs, but I did that also knowing that high Insulin levels and resistance that typically accompany big people slows down weight loss and in fact will do the opposite. Ketosis wasn't even on my radar. But seemingly it has played a factor and I can only say that I feel good, energetic and have a positive state of mind. I wonder if its down to having a large amount of weight to lose. I'm clearly burning body fat for energy. Quite interesting all this and I'm keen to learn more...


Congratulations, that's about a stone a month! Wow, that's good going :-) Feel inspired!


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> No there is no argument unless you can demonstrate an oddity it the laws of thermodynamics. Anything else is semantics and obfuscation.
> 
> This perfectly demonstrates your point! It has been eaten, it can't give energy otherwise! You can see where confusion reigns....
> 
> ...


On that basis we should all do nothing except maintain the status quo and carry on our merry way unless or until we die or there is absolutely no doubt as what we should all do for our diet. That's never going to happen.

The thing that annoys me and Jogger is this label of a fad diet. It implies that we are flakey individuals with some sort of hippy back ground smoking cannabis. let me remind you that the premise of the diet re Prof Time Noakes was tested in a court of law, not once but twice. You are suggesting that some of the diets, including keto, may cause cancer and other conditions. On the contrary by avoiding foods (carbs) that cause inflammation to the body you are preventing cancer and other conditions from developing. How could you face a loved one in 5 years who (heaven forbid) had developed cancer and say if only we had gone wit the keto diet.

These philosophical, wise, all seeing words of wisdom all sound very good but do nothing for me I'm afraid. I'm a pragmatist first and last.


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## Hacienda71 (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> No there is no argument unless you can demonstrate an oddity it the laws of thermodynamics. Anything else is semantics and obfuscation.
> 
> This perfectly demonstrates your point! It has been eaten, it can't give energy otherwise! You can see where confusion reigns....
> 
> ...


I suspect for the average man in the street somewhere in the middle is best as per the findings in the report in The Lancet in 2018.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext


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## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> On that basis we should all do nothing except maintain the status quo and carry on our merry way unless or until we die or there is absolutely no doubt as what we should all do for our diet. That's never going to happen.
> 
> The thing that annoys me and Jogger is this label of a fad diet. It implies that we are flakey individuals with some sort of hippy back ground smoking cannabis. let me remind you that the premise of the diet re Prof Time Noakes was tested in a court of law, not once but twice. You are suggesting that some of the diets, inc_luding keto, may cause cancer and other conditions_. On the contrary by avoiding foods (carbs) that cause inflammation to the body you are preventing cancer and other conditions from developing. How could you face a loved one in 5 years who (heaven forbid) had developed cancer and say if only we had gone wit the keto diet.
> 
> These philosophical, wise, all seeing words of wisdom all sound very good but do nothing for me I'm afraid. I'm a pragmatist first and last.


What about the link between processed meats and cancer? Does keto specifically exclude the consumption of these as a diet that has been "proven" to reduce the risk of cancers?
_The World Health Organization has classified processed meats – including ham, salami, bacon and frankfurts – as a Group 1 carcinogen which means that there is strong evidence that processed meats cause *cancer*. _


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> What about the link between processed meats and cancer? Does keto specifically exclude the consumption of these?
> _The World Health Organization has classified processed meats – including ham, salami, bacon and frankfurts – as a Group 1 carcinogen which means that there is strong evidence that processed meats cause *cancer*. _


Don't believe it as it is a proven flawed study. Bacon salami bring it on. Lovely

edit; you need to delve more deeply into this study as have I


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## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Don't believe it as it is a proven flawed study. Bacon salami bring it on. Lovely


On what basis is it flawed? Or do you simply believe it to be flawed as that justifies you in eating processed meat?


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> On what basis is it flawed? Or do you simply believe it to be flawed as that justifies you in eating processed meat?


sorry you missed my edit. I looked into this study some time ago and read up on how it was perceived by scientists and doctors. I'm not going to bother with it again.


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## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> sorry you missed my edit. I looked into this study some time ago and read up on how it was perceived by scientists and doctors. I'm not going to bother with it again.


According to the WHO, an analysis of 800 studies was done
https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

Have you also done your own thorough meta analysis of these and come to a different conclusion to 22 global experts...interesting


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> According to the WHO, an analysis of 800 studies was done
> https://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/
> 
> Have you also done your own thorough meta analysis of these and come to a different conclusion to 22 global experts...interesting


No further comment


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## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> No further comment


Ah I wrongly assumed your evangelism was supported by your own scientific research and expertise


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Hacienda71 said:


> I suspect for the average man in the street somewhere in the middle is best as per the findings in the report in The Lancet in 2018.
> 
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext


Thank you! Kinda supports my point!


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> Ah I wrongly assumed your evangelism was supported by your own scientific research and expertise


Nitrates are what is used in the processing of bacon and salami and Ham etc.
I have first hand experience of consuming nitrates. When I was in hospital following my heart attack I was prescribed nitrates. When metabolised Nitrates form Nitric Oxide and this dilates the blood vessels reducing blood pressure. We consume substantial amounts of nitrates from vegetables which is where vegetarians get their nitrates from. So we actually consume far more nitrates from vegetables than from bacon et al.

So consuming nitrates is actually very good for us.

Now for the carcinogenic WHO bit. Remember our old friend DR Ken D Berry introduced to us by Classic doo daa.

Right at the end of this video clip (which I watched months ago) he deals with the flaws in the study.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ygs2j0v0sU


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Thank you! Kinda supports my point!


I have already dealt with this study at the bottom of page 2 of the thread. It is very very unscientific.


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> On that basis we should all do nothing except maintain the status quo and carry on our merry way unless or until we die or there is absolutely no doubt as what we should all do for our diet. That's never going to happen.
> 
> The thing that annoys me and Jogger is this label of a fad diet. It implies that we are flakey individuals with some sort of hippy back ground smoking cannabis. let me remind you that the premise of the diet re Prof Time Noakes was tested in a court of law, not once but twice. You are suggesting that some of the diets, including keto, may cause cancer and other conditions. *On the contrary by avoiding foods (carbs) that cause inflammation to the body you are preventing cancer and other conditions from developing. How could you face a loved one in 5 years who (heaven forbid) had developed cancer and say if only we had gone wit the keto diet.*
> 
> These philosophical, wise, all seeing words of wisdom all sound very good but do nothing for me I'm afraid. I'm a pragmatist first and last.


On your first point, I don't believe at all that the status quo should be maintained, having worked in R&D organisations all my working life, my very being demands that we challenge perceived thinking and look for alternatives. I have no issue with that. But before you roll stuff out to the general public or claim any truths you need to be damn sure of the science and any risks and side effects. Unfortunately health-studies take decades to prove. Hell who know, you and Tim Noakes may be right, but unfortunately as a generally marketed health scheme I would suggest it's too early. I am happy for you and other Keto dieters to continue, you are guinea-pigs and I hope we will all something.

On 'Fad diets' where is the dividing line between what is real, proven and without major side effects that might be a method to separate Fad from Valuable. Is the Cabbage diet Fad? Is Gwyneth Paltrow ever wrong? Is belief enough?

I fear however you are taking a blindly obsessive route (I'm trying to avoid the word Zealous) with this (as seen on the Statins thread), latched onto something as the one and only truth and everybody else is wrong. I am very cautious when I read stuff like this (in bold) which is both overly emotional and factually poor. So it concerns me when I see anybody promoting a new 'truth' and encouraging others to do the same. If it's that clear and simple to you, why isn't the NHS/WHO, sports organisations, cancer research and any others you care to name jumping at the chance to exploit this knowledge?


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> No further comment


That's not an answer....


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> On your first point, I don't believe at all that the status quo should be maintained, having worked in R&D organisations all my working life, my very being demands that we challenge perceived thinking and look for alternatives. I have no issue with that. But before you roll stuff out to the general public or claim any truths you need to be damn sure of the science and any risks and side effects. Unfortunately health-studies take decades to prove. Hell who know, you and Tim Noakes may be right, but unfortunately as a generally marketed health scheme I would suggest it's too early. I am happy for you and other Keto dieters to continue, you are guinea-pigs and I hope we will all something.
> 
> On 'Fad diets' where is the dividing line between what is real, proven and without major side effects that might be a method to separate Fad from Valuable. Is the Cabbage diet Fad? Is Gwyneth Paltrow ever wrong? Is belief enough?
> 
> I fear however you are taking a blindly obsessive route (I'm trying to avoid the word Zealous) with this (as seen on the Statins thread), latched onto something as the one and only truth and everybody else is wrong. I am very cautious when I read stuff like this (in bold) which is both overly emotional and factually poor. So it concerns me when I see anybody promoting a new 'truth' and encouraging others to do the same. If it's that clear and simple to you, why isn't the NHS/WHO, sports organisations, cancer research and any others you care to name jumping at the chance to exploit this knowledge?


I've dealt with all the factual stuff to my satisfaction if not yours. You know the answer to why the powers that be aren,t doing anything and that is vested interests keeping control. Again I've dealt with all that to my satisfaction if not yours. The stuff on statins, I would stake my life on that situation. They are poison again backed  up factually with science to my satisfaction and not yours. So what we have here is a subjective point of view based on our own thoughts and experiences. That's fair enough. Let's agree to differ


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> That's not an answer....


I did answer it later post


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> The study relied on the participants remembering over 25 years the carbs they had eaten. Not very scientific is it.


OK, found it. How come the Lancet and their peers made such a mistake, missed that obvious point and published such a shoddy paper? Have you checked the references for the precise methodology and how it was validated?


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> OK, found it. How come the Lancet and their peers made such a mistake, missed that obvious point and published such a shoddy paper? Have you checked the references for the precise methodology and how it was validated?


Not something I felt was worth doing at the time. may be when I've got some spare time (like every day now I'm retired)


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Nitrates are what is used in the processing of bacon and salami and Ham etc.
> I have first hand experience of consuming nitrates. When I was in hospital following my heart attack I was prescribed nitrates. When metabolised Nitrates form Nitric Acid and this dilates the blood vessels reducing blood pressure. We consume substantial amounts of nitrates from vegetables which is where vegetarians get their nitrates from. So we actually consume far more nitrates from vegetables than from bacon et al.
> 
> So consuming nitrates is actually very good for us.
> ...



You see here is more errant nonsense demonstrating poor grasp of a subject that others may take as fact.....

I have taken Nitrates, I have a GTN Glyceryl TriNitrate spray on my desk. The effect of Nitrates in the blood is completely different to the long-term effect of Nitrates from food in your digestive system. Nitrates/Nitrite along with Haem Iron from Red meat have both been long demonstrated to be a major causative factor in Bowl and Colorectal cancer in particular. Again, this is nothing new, research has been bimbling along on this for over 3 decades now.
Cutting down on red meat and cured-meats is recognised as a sensible health precaution....


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> I've dealt with all the factual stuff to my satisfaction if not yours. You know the answer to why the powers that be aren,t doing anything and that is vested interests keeping control. Again I've dealt with all that to my satisfaction if not yours. The stuff on statins, I would stake my life on that situation. They are poison again backed up factually with science to my satisfaction and not yours. So what we have here is a subjective point of view based on our own thoughts and experiences. That's fair enough. Let's agree to differ


That's fine, crack-on. I wish you no ill will. 
But remember just because it satisfies your criteria does not make it fact or a good thing for others to be doing. Accept to have your thinking challenged and just as vehemently refuted.


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> You see here is more errant nonsense demonstrating poor grasp of the subject that others may take as fact.....
> 
> I have taken Nitrates, I have a GTN Glyceryl TriNitrate spray on my desk. The effect of Nitrates in the blood is completely different to the long-term effect of Nitrates from food in your digestive system. Nitrates/Nitrite along with Haem Iron from Red meat have both been long demonstrated to be a major causative factor in Bowl and Colorectal cancer in particular. Again, this is nothing new, research has been bimbling along on this for over 3 decades now.
> Cutting down on red meat and cured-meats is recognised as a sensible health precaution....


Just when I thought we were getting on.

you win I've had enough of all this. yes I'm going to get cancer. now what's this lump I've got better get it checked out by my infallible GP


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Just when I thought we were getting on.
> 
> you win I've had enough of all this. yes I'm going to get cancer. now what's this lump I've got better get it checked out by my infallible GP


There's no winning....


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Nitrates are what is used in the processing of bacon and salami and Ham etc.
> I have first hand experience of consuming nitrates. When I was in hospital following my heart attack I was prescribed nitrates. When metabolised Nitrates form Nitric Oxide and this dilates the blood vessels reducing blood pressure. We consume substantial amounts of nitrates from vegetables which is where vegetarians get their nitrates from. So we actually consume far more nitrates from vegetables than from bacon et al.
> 
> So consuming nitrates is actually very good for us.
> ...


----------



## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Just when I thought we were getting on.
> 
> you win I've had enough of all this. yes I'm going to get cancer. now what's this lump I've got better get it checked out by my infallible GP


I'm not sure anyone would want to know how you've discovered a lump in your own bowel


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Just when I thought we were getting on.
> 
> you win I've had enough of all this. yes I'm going to get cancer. now what's this lump I've got better get it checked out by my infallible GP


Not a nice or funny "joke". 
Cancer doesn't give a monkey's who it gets. Currently living with it again.


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## The Jogger (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> Ah I wrongly assumed your evangelism was supported by your own scientific research and expertise


You wrongly assumed that people on the Keto diet eat processed meat, not necessarily true, a lot of people stick to grass fed meat and or organic. Also people who eat a varied diet also eat processed meats unless they specifically say they don't have it in their diet. So please don't assume that all lchf are processed meat eaters and if they was the case bacon sales would be a lot lower than they are. Saying that I buy bacon from M&S which doesn't contain nitrates but my choice. There are now various research findings saying it's ok to eat processed meats.


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## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Y*ou wrongly assumed that people on the Keto diet eat processed meat*, not necessarily true, a lot of people stick to grass fed meat and or organic. Also people who eat a varied diet also eat processed meats unless they specifically say they don't have it in their diet. So please don't assume that all lchf are processed meat eaters and if they was the case bacon sales would be a lot lower than they are. Saying that I buy bacon from M&S which doesn't contain nitrates but my choice. There are now various research findings saying it's ok to eat processed meats.


The OP says he does however - see first page of thread (post #8) 
He also posted that dietary nitrates are good for the heart or some such, which would appear to be factually incorrect (post #150)?


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

Other than fritters, I'd not had Spam in years, before seeing if the Ketogenic Diet would work for me.

Spam is processed meat isn't it?


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Nitrates are what is used in the processing of bacon and salami and Ham etc.
> I have first hand experience of consuming nitrates. When I was in hospital following my heart attack I was prescribed nitrates. When metabolised Nitrates form Nitric Oxide and this dilates the blood vessels reducing blood pressure. We consume substantial amounts of nitrates from vegetables which is where vegetarians get their nitrates from. So we actually consume far more nitrates from vegetables than from bacon et al.
> 
> So consuming nitrates is actually very good for us.
> ...



Correction required on your part.


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## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> Other than fritters, I'd not had Spam in years, before seeing if the Ketogenic Diet would work for me.
> 
> Spam is processed meat isn't it?


Yep, and very high in fat (and salt):
56g - *Calories:* 180 ; *Total Fat:* 16g (24.62); *Saturated Fat:* 6g (30); *Cholesterol:* 40mg (13.33); *Sodium:* 790mg (32.92); *Total Carbohydrates:* 1g (0.33); *Dietary Fiber:* 0g ; *Sugars:* 0g ; *Protein:* 7g ;


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> Yep, and very high in fat (and salt):
> 56g - *Calories:* 180 ; *Total Fat:* 16g (24.62); *Saturated Fat:* 6g (30); *Cholesterol:* 40mg (13.33); *Sodium:* 790mg (32.92); *Total Carbohydrates:* 1g (0.33); *Dietary Fiber:* 0g ; *Sugars:* 0g ; *Protein:* 7g ;


yummy yummy yum yum


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> Correction required on your part.


You still here where's your mate Dr Berry didn't you see the new video. its' all there. You just have to listen. Swing low sweet chariaarrts coming for to carry me home. Swiiing low.....


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Jogger I source organic meats like you. and yes processed meats aren't part of the keto diet but hey you can eat them so why not? Bring on the Cancer I say. ( very unlikely)

Stand by for Classic Doo Daa to click the report to Mods button. I don;t care anymore


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## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> You still here where's your mate Dr Berry didn't you see the new video. its' all there. You just have to listen. Swing low sweet chariaarrts coming for to carry me home. Swiiing low.....


Why watch a video when the person "presenting it" is only promoting their product. It's like his diet to beat Coronavirus. Self promotion.


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## Bill Gates (10 Feb 2020)

Just do your own thing folks if it goes unchallenged from now on please do not take that as that you are right. Like the man said and I mean "The Man" there are no winners.


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## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

classic33 said:


> Other than fritters, I'd not had Spam in years, before seeing if the Ketogenic Diet would work for me.
> 
> Spam is processed meat isn't it?


I wouldn't rush to call it healthy...but it is delicious!


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> Yep, and very high in fat (and salt):
> 56g - *Calories:* 180 ; *Total Fat:* 16g (24.62); *Saturated Fat:* 6g (30); *Cholesterol:* 40mg (13.33); *Sodium:* 790mg (32.92); *Total Carbohydrates:* 1g (0.33); *Dietary Fiber:* 0g ; *Sugars:* 0g ; *Protein:* 7g ;


...and the Nitrates/Nitrite....


----------



## BoldonLad (10 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> You wrongly assumed that people on the Keto diet eat processed meat, not necessarily true, a lot of people stick to grass fed meat and or organic. Also people who eat a varied diet also eat processed meats unless they specifically say they don't have it in their diet. So please don't assume that all lchf are processed meat eaters and if they was the case bacon sales would be a lot lower than they are. Saying that I buy bacon from M&S which doesn't contain nitrates but my choice. There are now various research findings saying it's ok to eat processed meats.


Having travelled quite extensively in mainland Europe, where eating processed meat (sausage, Salami, Parma ham, chorizo, etc) are common place, I noted a) they have elderly people there b) there are not stacks of bodies in the streets. I am thus suspicious of some (all) of the facts which government and/or experts feed us with.


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> You wrongly assumed that people on the Keto diet eat processed meat, not necessarily true, a lot of people stick to *grass fed meat and or organic*. Also people who eat a varied diet also eat processed meats unless they specifically say they don't have it in their diet. So please don't assume that all lchf are processed meat eaters and if they was the case bacon sales would be a lot lower than they are. Saying that I buy bacon from M&S which doesn't contain nitrates but my choice. There are now various research findings saying it's ok to eat processed meats.


Don't expect a huge health benefit here either, but for a zillion other reasons it's a good call....


----------



## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> Having travelled quite extensively in mainland Europe, where eating processed meat (sausage, Salami, Parma ham, chorizo, etc) are common place, I noted a) they have elderly people there b) there are not stacks of bodies in the streets. I am thus suspicious of some (all) of the facts which government and/or experts feed us with.


Maybe not, but European countries do seem to come quite high up the list when it comes to bowel cancer rates - I doubt it's completely a coincidence
https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/colorectal-cancer-statistics

The introduction is quite interesting too. Being a man doesn't help your cause either (so if you're of the age that you get the test kit through the post, hopefully you've made use of it and returned as instructed  )

Koreans are also big (red) meat eaters


----------



## BoldonLad (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> Maybe not, but European countries do seem to come quite high up the list when it comes to bowel cancer rates - I doubt it's completely a coincidence
> https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/colorectal-cancer-statistics
> 
> The introduction is quite interesting too. Being a man doesn't help your cause either (so if you're of the age that you get the test kit through the post, hopefully you've made use of it and returned as instructed  )
> ...


At 72, I have indeed, reached “that age”.


----------



## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> At 72, I have indeed, reached “that age”.


Keep an eye on your bowel habits  as you're 'that age'


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Feb 2020)

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...bably-not-in-ketosis?utm_source=pocket-newtab


----------



## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...bably-not-in-ketosis?utm_source=pocket-newtab


It's not fun, I agree with that.


----------



## winjim (10 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...bably-not-in-ketosis?utm_source=pocket-newtab


Which answers the question posed on page one of the thread, namely 'what's a blood test going to tell you'.


----------



## BoldonLad (10 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> Keep an eye on your bowel habits  as you're 'that age'



I had a heart attack at age 49. 

Still here to tell the tale.

One certainty in life, we are all going to die eventually  I just hope for a quick end, no lingering in Hospice or Nursing Home or whatever. A ticket to Switzerland would suit me, if necessary, but, hopefully, not for a while yet, having too much fun.


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

Anyhow, what is everybody eating tonight -without analysis!

For 3 portions I ....
Baked 2 peppers and 1 finely diced onion in the oven.
Baked a 5” piece of Chorizo sliced on a griddle to drain the fat.
Griddled 2 chicken breasts with Cumin seeds and diced.
Added all the above to a pan with a tin of tomato and 400 grams of home cooked kidney beans and smoked Paprika.
Finally seasoned with black pepper, soy sauce and green Tabasco.
Washed down with a glass of Pecorino....
:-)
Hic....


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> I had a heart attack at age 49.
> 
> Still here to tell the tale.
> 
> One certainty in life, we are all going to die eventually  I just hope for a quick end, no lingering in Hospice or Nursing Home or whatever. A ticket to Switzerland would suit me, if necessary, but, hopefully, not for a while yet, having too much fun.


I had a mild one at 42....do I win?


----------



## classic33 (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> I had a mild one at 42....do I win?


I "popped mi clogs" on the operating table in '95, does that count?


----------



## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

Glad to report, I have made it to 47 with no dead heart muscle due to a heart attack 
And I eat carbs


----------



## BoldonLad (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> I had a mild one at 42....do I win?



It would appear so, but, I am not sure I will be following your dietary. advice


----------



## HMS_Dave (10 Feb 2020)

I dont wish to pretend I know anything worthy of what would or should be considered nutritional advice, however I note that the maasai tribe in Africa have a diet predominantly of raw meat, milk, cattle blood and fat. They suffer very few ailments and are extremely active and happy peoples. However, their average life expectancy is still only 45 give or take. I'm sure extreme environment takes its toll with a plethora of animals that would like you dead for whatever reasons. Be interesting to know causes of deaths and perhaps that information exists. Again I'm not trying to prove anything. Just an observation. I would be interested to know what role DNA plays in all this, I would imagine quite a large one.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Feb 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> It would appear so, but, I am not sure I will be following your dietary. advice



@Bill Gates Has also had a heart attack. So thread full of a fair proportion of heart attack survivors.


----------



## winjim (10 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> I dont wish to pretend I know anything worthy of what would or should be considered nutritional advice, however I note that the maasai tribe in Africa have a diet predominantly of raw meat, milk, cattle blood and fat. They suffer very few ailments and are extremely active and happy peoples. However, their average life expectancy is still only 45 give or take. I'm sure extreme environment takes its toll with a plethora of animals that would like you dead for whatever reasons. Be interesting to know causes of deaths and perhaps that information exists. Again I'm not trying to prove anything. Just an observation. I would be interested to know what role DNA plays in all this, I would imagine quite a large one.


Some of the Inuit and other Arctic peoples have traditionally survived on a ketogenic diet, high fat from seal blubber and the like, low carb with very little plant material. Interestingly though they also have a high prevalence of a genetic mutation which means they are deficient in a protein called CPT1A, which catalyses the first step of fatty acid oxidation to form ketone bodies. So, counterintuitively it is actually more difficult for them to produce ketones. 

However, it is thought that this particular type of CPT1A deficiency has been selected for, and so must be a beneficial adaptation to either living in the cold or to their high fat diet. One theory is that although CPT1A activity is downregulated overall, it is not entirely switched off when they do eat carbs, as it would be in the 'normal' population, so they are able to maintain ketogenesis even in the fed state, avoiding what I think was referred to upthread as 'keto flu' as the body switches between glucose metabolism and fatty acid oxidation. It's also upregulated by certain types of fats found in their traditional diet. It does mean though that if they start to eat more of a 'Western' diet, they become more susceptible to dangerous episodes of hypoglycaemia when fasting, and they do have higher rates of infant mortality.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Feb 2020)

You also have to remember it’s not a high carb / low carb binary choice. Your diet may be medium carb or any percentage between what is considered high and what is considered low.


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> It would appear so, but, I am not sure I will be following your dietary. advice


Ha! Bad genes, growing- up on clotted cream and cigarettes, stressful job, Simple youthful hedonism and not listening to the Doctor. I was a ticking time-bomb. That’s partly the reason why diet, cholesterol and obesity remain of professional interest, even though it’s not my primary area of food expertise....
And I love cooking and eating :-))))

A recent Angiogram showed an incredibly healthy heart despite it’s earlier abuse, which goes to suggest my dietary approach at least for me has value.


----------



## winjim (10 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> You also have to remember it’s not a high carb / low carb binary choice. Your diet may be medium carb or any percentage between what is considered high and what is considered low.


I guess you'd define low carb as below the threshold to maintain normoglycaemia, that's what matters in terms of ketogenesis. What that threshold is I don't know, that's what dieticians are for.


----------



## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

winjim said:


> I guess you'd define low carb as below the threshold to maintain normoglycaemia, that's what matters in terms of ketogenesis. What that threshold is I don't know, *that's what dieticians are for.*


Or people who make YouTube videos it seems


----------



## vickster (10 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> So thread full of a fair proportion of heart attack survivors.


You don't want to be having too many though, your chances of survival lessen each time!


----------



## winjim (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> I had a mild one at 42....do I win?


I just turned 42, so I guess every day's a bonus from now on.


----------



## Fab Foodie (10 Feb 2020)

winjim said:


> I just turned 42, so I guess every day's a bonus from now on.


....best not plan too much ;-)


----------



## srw (10 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> That's not an answer....


To be fair, it is. It's shorthand for "oops. I don't understand, what you've posted contradicts my worldwide based on a few dodgy videos, so I'll stop engaging."


----------



## winjim (10 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> let me remind you that the premise of the diet re Prof Time Noakes was tested in a court of law, not once but twice


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Noakes was accused of misconduct over a tweet because it was claimed that he was 'undermining breastfeeding'. He was cleared because it was found that twitter is not a medium that should be considered suitable for the dispensing of medical advice and that he wasn't acting in the capacity of a medical doctor. Here's an excerpt from the judgement which may be of interest:

_The respondent’s responding tweet also referred to the very same acronym, LCHF. At no point in the tweeted question or response did either Ms Leenstra or the respondent refer to either low carbs or define LCHF as meaning no carbs or such low carbs as to make the carb content negligible.

Neither did either refer to or define or restrict LCHF to any particular meaning or definition, least of which the so-called ketogenic diet. At least one other tweeter, Dr Gail Ashford, noticed this and ventured the comment as follows: 

“I do not understand where the danger lies. Honest query. Low carb is _not_ NO carb. It is not high protein either.”_

So it explicitly wasn't the premise of the ketogenic diet that was being tested in court, it was his capacity to give advice on breastfeeding. The ruling was basically that he knows bog all about neonatology and paediatrics but really it's up to the mother what she decides to do with information from twitter.


I only skimmed it. If anybody wants to wade through the entire thing and add to or correct what I've written, here it is...

https://www.medicalbrief.co.za/archives/oakes-cleared-misconduct-full-hpcsa-judgment/


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> You wrongly assumed that people on the Keto diet eat processed meat, not necessarily true, a lot of people stick to grass fed meat and or organic. Also people who eat a varied diet also eat processed meats unless they specifically say they don't have it in their diet. So please don't assume that all lchf are processed meat eaters and if they was the case bacon sales would be a lot lower than they are. Saying that I buy bacon from M&S which doesn't contain nitrates but my choice. There are now various research findings saying it's ok to eat processed meats.


Hi Jogger I have placed all the crap coming our way from the trolls on this thread on Ignore mate. I suggest you do the same. It's great


----------



## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Hi Jogger I have placed all the crap coming our way from the trolls on this thread on Ignore mate. I suggest you do the same. It's great


Yes, let’s stifle honest, open and challenging debate with people of differing views. That’ll keep an open mind.
Where exactly is all this ‘crap coming from trolls’?
...that is assuming you can still read this :-)


----------



## winjim (11 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Yes, let’s stifle honest, open and challenging debate with people of differing views. That’ll keep an open mind.
> Where exactly is all this ‘crap coming from trolls’?
> ...that is assuming you can still read this :-)


I don't know if he's including me, but if that's his response to an invitation to 'correct me if I'm wrong', then I'm going to assume that I'm not wrong.


----------



## vickster (11 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Yes, let’s stifle honest, open and challenging debate with people of differing views. That’ll keep an open mind.
> Where exactly is all this ‘crap coming from trolls’?
> ...that is assuming you can still read this :-)


Seemingly he's only interested in discussion with other keto dieters, so why not just use a keto diet forum?


----------



## srw (11 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Surely this is a contradiction, is it not?


No. I'm not excluding a whole class of food, which is generally considered a normal part of a balanced diet. What I'm doing is psychologically easy and explicitly a way to eat fewer calories.


Bill Gates said:


> I had a bullet proof coffee at lunchtime, Butter and Coconut Oil blended in coffee maybe around 300 calories or so. That's gone out in burned energy by now. if I had eaten a bowl of rice 300 calories my insulin levels would have gone up and the calories stored as fat.





Bill Gates said:


> Within minutes the fat is converted into ketones and transported by the blood to the muscles (mitochondria) for energy. (my science might not be spot on here but should be close enough for this purpose


This is hilarious in its wrongness. If 300 calories were really converted into heat within minutes you'd have a fever. 300 calories is an enormous amount - it's half an hour of running or cycling. 



HMS_Dave said:


> Having lots of weight to lose im assuming is the reason why im inadvertently in ketosis



An alternative explanation is that you're not really in ketosis and the tool you're using isn't very effective. Which, to be honest, is more likely - especially as you're eating a healthy balanced diet which includes carbohydrate.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

Here is a keto breakfast I had this morning. Yesterday I had no breakfast at all. I wasn't hungry.A couple of slices of Salami and chunk of full fat cheese with garlic ( predicted text forbids me to write the name) with cherry tomatoes and rocket and avocado with virgin olive oil and Himalayan salt. Very nutritious.


----------



## BoldonLad (11 Feb 2020)

Fab Foodie said:


> Ha! Bad genes, growing- up on clotted cream and cigarettes, stressful job, Simple youthful hedonism and not listening to the Doctor. I was a ticking time-bomb. That’s partly the reason why diet, cholesterol and obesity remain of professional interest, even though it’s not my primary area of food expertise....
> And I love cooking and eating :-))))
> 
> A recent Angiogram showed an incredibly healthy heart despite it’s earlier abuse, which goes to suggest my dietary approach at least for me has value.



well done you

similar story here, genes, plus a bit of assistance from my own, youthful, lifestyle.

now, my fit bit, tells me I have a very healthy heart for my age. Let us hope it is right!


----------



## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Here is a keto breakfast I had this morning. Yesterday I had no breakfast at all. I wasn't hungry.A couple of slices of Salami and chunk of full fat cheese with garlic ( predicted text forbids me to write the name) with cherry tomatoes and rocket and avocado with virgin olive oil and Himalayan salt. Very nutritious.
> View attachment 504075


Mmmmm....loverly :-)


----------



## fossyant (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Here is a keto breakfast I had this morning. Yesterday I had no breakfast at all. I wasn't hungry.A couple of slices of Salami and chunk of full fat cheese with garlic ( predicted text forbids me to write the name) with cherry tomatoes and rocket and avocado with virgin olive oil and Himalayan salt. Very nutritious.
> View attachment 504075



Looks very nice. Didn't have time for breakfast - work called - I don't get time.


----------



## newfhouse (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Himalayan salt.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

newfhouse said:


>









A picture is worth a 1000 words


----------



## newfhouse (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> View attachment 504086
> 
> 
> A picture is worth a 1000 words


Why is it ten times more expensive than this?


----------



## vickster (11 Feb 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Why is it ten times more expensive than this?


Clever marketing by the Dalai Lama?


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Why is it ten times more expensive than this?


it comes on the back of mules from the slopes of Mount Everest along the silk road over many weeks to Constantinople and there by paddle steamer to Tilbury Docks and then by rickshaw to my local supermarket


----------



## newfhouse (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> it comes on the back of mules from the slopes of Mount Everest along the silk road over many weeks to Constantinople and there by paddle steamer to Tilbury Docks and then by rickshaw to my local supermarket


Why?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> View attachment 504086
> 
> 
> A picture is worth a 1000 words



You’ve been had.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> it comes on the back of mules from the slopes of Mount Everest along the silk road over many weeks to Constantinople and there by paddle steamer to Tilbury Docks and then by rickshaw to my local supermarket



No it doesn’t. There is no salt mining on the slopes of Everest.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> You’ve been had.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

are you guys for real. Google Himalayan salt FFS


----------



## Mo1959 (11 Feb 2020)

I just chip a bit off my lamp. Lol.


----------



## newfhouse (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> are you guys for real. Google Himalayan salt FFS


I did. It says it costs ten time more per kilo than bog standard salt. Does it have special properties?


----------



## AndyRM (11 Feb 2020)

To be fair, Himalayan salt does taste different. 

Whether or not that justifies the expense I'm not sure.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

I hear that Big Ben is up for sale at a snip price of £100000. We can wrap it up and deliver it to your door free of charge.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2020)

newfhouse said:


> I did. It says it costs ten time more per kilo than bog standard salt. Does it have special properties?



Nope but it does have impurities causing that pinkish tinge. It has no special health benefits


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

that's made my day thank you very much


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> are you guys for real. Google Himalayan salt FFS



Still doesn’t come from the slopes of Everest.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> No it doesn’t. There is no salt mining on the slopes of Everest.





YukonBoy said:


> Still doesn’t come from the slopes of Everest.


it's a wind up. of course it doesn't Constantinople is now Istanbul 
silk road disappeared hundreds of years ago
paddle steamer? really?
Tilbury Docks. not there any more
could the rickshaw to my local supermarket be true. I leave that for you to work out


----------



## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2020)

BRITISH SALT FOR BRITISH PEOPLE!!!


----------



## classic33 (11 Feb 2020)




----------



## Fab Foodie (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> it's a wind up. of course it doesn't Constantinople is now Istanbul
> silk road disappeared hundreds of years ago
> paddle steamer? really?
> Tilbury Docks. not there any more
> could the rickshaw to my local supermarket be true. I leave that for you to work out


...glad you clarified that....


----------



## fossyant (11 Feb 2020)

How long did the 'tomato pill' supplements last Bill ? Apparently they were 'the dogs' - your words. Expensive is another. Judging from breakfast, you've switched to real tomatoes now. No matter what anyone says, you've got your opinion, others there, so I don't see this thread going anywhere really.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> How long did the 'tomato pill' supplements last Bill ? Apparently they were 'the dogs' - your words. Expensive is another. Judging from breakfast, you've switched to real tomatoes now. No matter what anyone says, you've got your opinion, others there, so I don't see this thread going anywhere really.


saw the light. blimey that's over 10 years ago. is that from memory or been doing some delving?


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> saw the light. blimey that's over 10 years ago. is that from memory or been doing some delving?


you can assume you are not a member of the knights. yet


----------



## HMS_Dave (11 Feb 2020)

srw said:


> An alternative explanation is that you're not really in ketosis and the tool you're using isn't very effective. Which, to be honest, is more likely - especially as you're eating a healthy balanced diet which includes carbohydrate.



Absolutely possible. I do not plan on changing anything about my diet. As i say, i eat carbs, lean protein (usually the breast of a bird or a fish) plenty of veg, oats for breakfast with honey and a dried fruit (usually fat juicy sultanas) and little to no bread, No cakes, Pies be damned and minimal pasta's...


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> How long did the 'tomato pill' supplements last Bill ? Apparently they were 'the dogs' - your words. Expensive is another. Judging from breakfast, you've switched to real tomatoes now. No matter what anyone says, you've got your opinion, others there, so I don't see this thread going anywhere really.


any influence over the mods by any chance. it can only be the knights that are complaining to the mods. are they ever banned for trolling? I doubt it


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

my son tells me that Tilbury Docks is there. that was my deliberate mistake to give it an essence of truth. I can only imagine how this must have been seized on by the knights. heh heh I don't want to know


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

A rickshaw has Just arrived with my Himalayan salt. poor bugger is knackered. it's cheaper going direct. miss out the middleman. cost me a tip though. £2


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> A rickshaw has Just arrived with my Himalayan salt. poor bugger is knackered. it's cheaper going direct. miss out the middleman. cost me a tip though. £2


worthy of a ban that post don't you think I can see the knights reaching for the mod button


----------



## fossyant (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> saw the light. blimey that's over 10 years ago. is that from memory or been doing some delving?



Just three clicks of the mouse (looked at heart threads). Just wondered, as you did actually promote a varied diet and low GI carbs, especially with training. 

I certainly can see a short term benefit of Keto - big carb reduction = weight loss, but longer term, you'll need some carbs for exercise - especially if you've little fat to use up and it can put additional stress on organs.

Not knocking it at all. I do watch my carb intake, mainly since breaking my spine and I'm still not able to exercise as much as I like, but with work, family chores, time is limited. But like many, I have my vices. I like beer/wine and drink far too much milk. Cutting excess carbs out from alcohol and food is a great way of cutting weight, and you feel better. Also lots of arguments for cutting out gluten, or certainly reducing it !

I don't like fatty food - so any fat on meat is trimmed, or only lean bought - more of a taste preference.


----------



## fossyant (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> A rickshaw has Just arrived with my Himalayan salt. poor bugger is knackered. it's cheaper going direct. miss out the middleman. cost me a tip though. £2



In this wind, you task master !


----------



## Ming the Merciless (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Yesterday I had no breakfast at all. I wasn't hungry



I agree, best not to have breakfast if you are not hungry.


----------



## classic33 (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> you can assume you are not a member of the knights. yet


You can't place yourself on ignore, unless you're using another logon name.


----------



## Mugshot (11 Feb 2020)

I suspect this thread may have a visit from a "Rickshaw" before too much longer.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

Mugshot said:


> I suspect this thread may have a visit from a "Rickshaw" before too much longer.


I saw him about an hour ago he was delivering my Himalayan Salt. Nothing about closing the thread though. i did give him £2 so i think I'm in his good books.


----------



## Bill Gates (11 Feb 2020)

Still open. That's good. I want to post more stuff about the keto diet in particular the MCT supplement drink given to the pro team Jumbo Visma


Bill Gates said:


> https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/X4FNYj
> 
> Looks like some of the pro teams are taking a ketone supplement and it is being questioned as a dubious performance enhancement. I can't see how one drink can put you into ketosis. Basically all it is is MCT oil, which you can buy in supermarkets. Blend it into coffee with butter and hey presto a "bullet Proof" coffee to improve your performance by 2 to 3%.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised that more wasn't made of this when it was posted. instant ketones instant energy. MCT within minutes turned into energy.


----------



## classic33 (11 Feb 2020)

https://www.epilepsy.com/article/2007/8/mct-diet


----------



## srw (11 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> MCT within minutes turned into energy.


Well no. That's not what your link says. Depending on which scientific study you believe, Jumbo Visma are paying £1000 a litre for a drink whose side-effects are unknown and which might improve or impair performance.


----------



## Bill Gates (12 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> Just three clicks of the mouse (looked at heart threads). Just wondered, as you did actually promote a varied diet and low GI carbs, especially with training.
> 
> I certainly can see a short term benefit of Keto - big carb reduction = weight loss, but longer term, you'll need some carbs for exercise - especially if you've little fat to use up and it can put additional stress on organs.
> 
> ...


I've found the thread. I hadn't actually tried the tomato pills. I said they looked like the DBs. Blimey wasn't I an aggressive SOB? Can you be retrospectively banned from something you posted over 10 years ago. I guess I'll find out. It's back on the training forum. If the Mods delete it I won't mind.


----------



## Starchivore (12 Feb 2020)

How has this thread been so long and contentious without me even throwing in my contribution, about my vegan starch-based diet?!


----------



## classic33 (12 Feb 2020)

Starchivore said:


> How has this thread been so long and contentious without me even throwing in my contribution, about my vegan starch-based diet?!


You were busy helping others out elsewhere.


----------



## fossyant (12 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> Can you be retrospectively banned from something you posted over 10 years ago.



I think you are safe. Most peeps wouldn't be here if that happened !


----------



## Racing roadkill (17 Feb 2020)

it seems there are yet more reasons to avoid a ‘Keto’ diet.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/11/keto-diet-make-bones-weaker-increase-risk-injury-12219315/


----------



## vickster (17 Feb 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> it seems there are yet more reasons to avoid a ‘Keto’ diet.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/11/keto-diet-make-bones-weaker-increase-risk-injury-12219315/


But but but Dr Ken didn't post it on YouTube so it can't possibly be true


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## winjim (17 Feb 2020)

vickster said:


> But but but Dr Ken didn't post it on YouTube so it can't possibly be true


Yeah, but you've got to love Metro's science reporting. Ketosis as a mild form of DKA, mellow insulin levels...


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## Fab Foodie (17 Feb 2020)

Starchivore said:


> How has this thread been so long and contentious without me even throwing in my contribution, about my vegan starch-based diet?!


Fill yer boots!


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## classic33 (17 Feb 2020)

https://www.maryvancenc.com/the-dark-side-of-keto/


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## The Jogger (18 Feb 2020)

Racing roadkill said:


> it seems there are yet more reasons to avoid a ‘Keto’ diet.
> 
> https://metro.co.uk/2020/02/11/keto-diet-make-bones-weaker-increase-risk-injury-12219315/


Oh yeah, very scientific based on 30 people which may effect bone health but that also means may not.


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## classic33 (18 Feb 2020)

The Jogger said:


> Oh yeah, very scientific based on 30 people which may effect bone health but that also means may not.


Search using epilepsy in the search term. There's a 25,000 person study over 30 years which says similar.


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## The Jogger (19 Feb 2020)

Yes I did that and this is the first link I opened.
https://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/...-effective-in-adults-with-epilepsy-12-04-2016


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## Bill Gates (25 Feb 2020)

The proof of the pudding......... but then that's not part of the keto diet.


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## classic33 (25 Feb 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> The proof of the pudding......... but then that's not part of the keto diet.


In controlling the condition for which is was devised, the control of epilepsy when medication has failed.

As pointed out earlier, it doesn't work for everyone. Just like any medication for the condition.


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## Electric_Andy (26 Feb 2020)

I have read most of these posts. I started the Keto diet 7 days ago. I do not train, it is just because "cutting down" was not working for me and I want to lose weight. I have lost 3lbs this week. It was hard at first - 3 days of headaches, tiredness, serious sugar cravings. But I feel great now, and I still get to eat bacon  I was having 2.5 tsps of sugar in hot drinks, up to 20 tsps per day, so cutting that out is a success in itself for me.

I will start taking vitamins as advised by some, can't hurt.


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## fossyant (26 Feb 2020)

That's a lot of sugar leccy_andy. I never have sugar in coffee, but used to in Tea, but just 1. I'm not surprised you craved it. I've not had sugar in hot drinks for a few years.


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## ianrauk (26 Feb 2020)

fossyant said:


> I never have sugar in coffee, but used to in Tea



The other way for me...coffee is far too bitter without sugar I find.


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## Electric_Andy (26 Feb 2020)

Well I found it horrible without sugar to begin with, but after two days I grew to like it. Now I love black tea


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## fossyant (26 Feb 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> Well I found it horrible without sugar to begin with, but after two days I grew to like it. Now I love black tea



Ohh, that's a step too far


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## Bill Gates (26 Feb 2020)

Electric_Andy said:


> I have read most of these posts. I started the Keto diet 7 days ago. I do not train, it is just because "cutting down" was not working for me and I want to lose weight. I have lost 3lbs this week. It was hard at first - 3 days of headaches, tiredness, serious sugar cravings. But I feel great now, and I still get to eat bacon  I was having 2.5 tsps of sugar in hot drinks, up to 20 tsps per day, so cutting that out is a success in itself for me.
> 
> I will start taking vitamins as advised by some, can't hurt.


good luck. the first 2 weeks are the hardest. athletic performance suffers initially but after that it's ok. avocado pears and virgin olive oil and plenty of butter and coconut oil to up your fat intake. cheese and nuts are good. particularly walnuts and macadamia nuts


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## HMS_Dave (26 Feb 2020)

I get reducing your sugar, pasta's and starches and eliminating breads but it just seems completely bizarre to me to up fat intake. If you're overweight, isn't the idea to burn that fat rather than eating it? Im no nutritionist or whatever first and foremost and am always looking to be educated on nutrition due to my current journey but it just seems bizarre.


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## classic33 (26 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> I get reducing your sugar, pasta's and starches and eliminating breads but it just seems completely bizarre to me to up fat intake. If you're overweight, isn't the idea to burn that fat rather than eating it? Im no nutritionist or whatever first and foremost and am always looking to be educated on nutrition due to my current journey but it just seems bizarre.


That's one problem, assuming you're following the Ketogenic Diet as it should be, set amount each day every day. There are no days when meals are skipped. The body doesn't differentiate between the fats and just goes off the body fat when extra is required.

Taken too far and your brain will lose what it needs to function, long term.


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## Bill Gates (26 Feb 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> I get reducing your sugar, pasta's and starches and eliminating breads but it just seems completely bizarre to me to up fat intake. If you're overweight, isn't the idea to burn that fat rather than eating it? Im no nutritionist or whatever first and foremost and am always looking to be educated on nutrition due to my current journey but it just seems bizarre.


Most of what you are asking is covered on the first page of the thread. Well worth a read


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## Bill Gates (3 Mar 2020)

There was a time 10 years ago when I noticed that I wasn't as happy a person as normal and that was down to the forum. So I withdrew. I seem to remember a forum member called Ravenbait who was really cool, saying that I wouldn't be able to stay away. I notice that she is no longer on here. Maybe she found the same happen to her. Anyway I'm taking a sabbatical to get my mojo back, See ya


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## HMS_Dave (3 Mar 2020)

Bill Gates said:


> There was a time 10 years ago when I noticed that I wasn't as happy a person as normal and that was down to the forum. So I withdrew. I seem to remember a forum member called Ravenbait who was really cool, saying that I wouldn't be able to stay away. I notice that she is no longer on here. Maybe she found the same happen to her. Anyway I'm taking a sabbatical to get my mojo back, See ya


I do wish you the best. I have been reading about the Keto diet and it has taken me to diabetes websites full of people who have been following this diet some for many decades with success. I dont think everyone would get on with it but for those that do I will no longer be ignorant to for sure. Take care.


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## The Jogger (7 Mar 2020)

I'll just leave this here, Dr David Unwin a well respected , experienced GP passing a wonderful message.

https://mol.im/a/8084971


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## wafter (7 Mar 2020)

FWIW I managed to lose around 8-9kg / 10% of my body mass at a rate of about 0.5kg/wk on low carb / keto; along with a further, similar amount through extended water-fasting over a much shorter timescale (which Keto opens the door to as it kills the carb craving and makes it so much easier).

It definitely works for weight loss and while the diet can be pretty difficult to accomodate (everything has carbs in!) it's nice to be able to eat stuff you'd otherwise avoid on a traditional diet (I was eating fried eggs and halloumi for breakfast and the weight was still falling off). Once you've sacked off the carbs suffiicently the cravings subside and you generally find yourself eating a lot less; avoiding the while carb-fuelled blood sugar spikes and deficits that underpin the insatiable urge to eat more.

In the long term though it can be hard to stick to, and I find that I have an "all or nothing" attitude to carbs; I'm OK when off them pretty much completely, but trying to reintroduce them opens the door to the cravings again and soon I'm wanting all the crisps and chocolate. It also helps to be happy and otherwise have a stable, low-stress life (yeah, right!) as eating tends to be an emotional crutch for many (myself included).

Ultimately I think Keto's great for targeting weight loss but I'm less convinced as a long-term strategy due to the practical aspects of such a restrictive diet and lack of long-term data. Once at a decent weight I think a more sensible approach (assuming you can tread that tightrope) is low-carb; sticking only to low-GI foods and avoiding all the nasty high-GI, sugar-laden processed crap.




The Jogger said:


> I'll just leave this here, Dr David Unwin a well respected , experienced GP passing a wonderful message.
> 
> https://mol.im/a/8084971


While I'm dubious of anything presented as fact by the Daily Fail, I do know at least two folks personally who've come off diabetes medication after following a low carb / low GI / Mediterranean diet to control their blood sugar fluctuations


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