# More war against cyclists.....



## Darius_Jedburgh (15 Jun 2021)

How I learnt to resist the charge of the ‘cyclo-terrorist’

http://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.../0/package/632/pub/632/page/79/article/189103


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## C R (15 Jun 2021)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> How I learnt to resist the charge of the ‘cyclo-terrorist’
> 
> http://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.../0/package/632/pub/632/page/79/article/189103


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## PaulB (15 Jun 2021)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> How I learnt to resist the charge of the ‘cyclo-terrorist’
> 
> http://digitaleditions.telegraph.co.../0/package/632/pub/632/page/79/article/189103


Well he can kiss my ring.


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## Hacienda71 (15 Jun 2021)

Reinforces my view the Telegraph publishes a load of sh1te and I am better off reading just about any other broadsheet.


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## DCBassman (15 Jun 2021)

"Car drivers pay for the roads".
How do these people edit their paper?
Morons.


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## mustang1 (15 Jun 2021)

OK I've had enough of "mamil". How about
MAMIBS: Middle ages men in business suits
MAMIM: in marketing
MAMIT: in taxi
...


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## DCBassman (15 Jun 2021)

I'm an OMIL anyhow...


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## dave r (15 Jun 2021)

What a crock of S**t


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## dave r (15 Jun 2021)

DCBassman said:


> I'm an OMIL anyhow...



I'm a pedaling pensioner.


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## C R (15 Jun 2021)

mustang1 said:


> OK I've had enough of "mamil". How about
> MAMIBS: Middle ages men in business suits
> MAMIM: in marketing
> MAMIT: in taxi
> ...


MAMAAE: middle aged man angry at everything, see also Gammons.


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

Against my better judgement I clicked the link. Saw the byline and closed it again.

Just to save anyone the bother, it's professional peanut Toby Young. He can get to fark.


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## Venod (15 Jun 2021)

He wrote.

"Cycling is predominantly a middle class activity"


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## newfhouse (15 Jun 2021)

Eugenics fan Toby Young, innit? When has he been right about anything?


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

Venod said:


> He wrote.
> 
> "Cycling is predominantly a middle class activity"


'The Hon' Toby Young is concerned about class? He's the embodiment of middle, possibly even upper (although that's debatable) class.


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## snorri (15 Jun 2021)

"I see cyclists jumping in and out of the buses" said Laura Trott, and I'm a cyclist.

Do London buses not have doors nowadays?


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Against my better judgement I clicked the link. Saw the byline and closed it again.
> 
> Just to save anyone the bother, it's professional peanut Toby Young. He can get to fark.



Its no good just scanning things and jumping to conclusions Jim.

That way lies the slippery slope to becoming a reactionary.

_If_ you'd read the article _properly_ you'd discover that some motorists have been even been _confronted_ by 'wooden planters'..!!

Yes !!!

Can you imagine !?!?

What's more (it _is_ more) sometimes even two of the things !!

Next up they'll be planting them up with pansies, and there goes the neighbourhood


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## Mo1959 (15 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Next up they'll be planting them up with pansies, and there goes the neighbourhood


Seems to be plenty pansies around without planting any more!


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Seems to be plenty pansies around without planting any more!



-- Yes but don't they brighten our world..??

🌈❤️💜💚🌸🌺🏵️💮🌻🌼🌺🧡💙💜❤️⭐🌈


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## Arjimlad (15 Jun 2021)

The author is a professional sh** stirrer right wing shock jock type, best ignored.


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Its no good just scanning things and jumping to conclusions Jim.
> 
> That way lies the slippery slope to becoming a reactionary.
> 
> ...


And there'll be another one from Confronted By Planters later on in the programme, now here's The Fall.


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## T4tomo (15 Jun 2021)

Arjimlad said:


> The author is a professional sh** stirrer right wing shock jock type, best ignored.


agree, and his article doesn't actually say anything - just page filly bollox


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## ebikeerwidnes (15 Jun 2021)

I started cycling most days about a year before the pandemic 
during the first lockdown there was an increase in the number of bikes on the road but after that it seems to have gone back to about the same as before.
round here anyway!

Looks like this idiot is taking the existance of a few cycle paths and a few roads being LTNs to stop people like him and his readers using a residential street as a rat run as an excuse to wind up his audience

Standard stuff - using phrases like 'Many places' a lot - which can be justified by saying that there are dozens of them
but gives the impression that the whole country is drowning in them
Wasn;t there another bloke who used to do that??
wasn't he something or other in the USA?
seem to remember a dodgy hair do came into it as well


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## Jody (15 Jun 2021)

Only made it to the first line of the second paragraph. 

What an absolute w*nker.


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## Illaveago (15 Jun 2021)

I looked it up to see who it was.
Just think ! People pay him to write this rubbish! 
What is even worse is that people buy it !


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> And there'll be another one from Confronted By Planters later on in the programme, now here's The Fall.
> 
> View attachment 593934



It all went downhill, with the second album..

I've got high hopes for 

"Apoplectic at Traffic Calming" 

Though.

Some catchy tunes there


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## Oldhippy (15 Jun 2021)

The scary thing is not only do they buy it, a lot believe it. When this is applied to other parts of life history teaches us that bad s*it can happen.


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## tyred (15 Jun 2021)

"Who are these oiks clogging up the roads with their monstrous, turbo-charged status symbols?"

That would be the owners of Audi turbo diesels...


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## Arrowfoot (15 Jun 2021)

I wouldn't bother with what he writes or says. 



> An article by Toby Young for the Daily Telegraph was “*significantly misleading*” when it said that catching a cold could protect people from coronavirus and claimed that London was approaching herd immunity, the press regulator has ruled.
> 
> In a decision published on Thursday, the Independent Press Standards Organisation (Ipso) complaints committee ordered the Telegraph to publish a correction over the column, which was appeared in July last year under the headline: “When we have herd immunity Boris will face a reckoning on this pointless and damaging lockdown.”


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## GuyBoden (15 Jun 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> I wouldn't bother with what he writes or says.




Yes, controversy seems to be Toby Young's approach to a selling his journo articles. It's an old worn out approach.


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## Oldhippy (15 Jun 2021)

Hitler's propaganda used to say some outrageous things too. That turned out well.


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## DCBassman (15 Jun 2021)

The man is plainly a fraudulent, fake-news-spreading stirrer. Off with his fingers!


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## PaulSB (15 Jun 2021)

Is it really worth the energy to get wound up by this type of journalism?

The Daily Telegraph is what it is. Personally I wouldn't even bother going to the website, finding snd reading the article and giving it further publicity.


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> The scary thing is not only do they buy it, a lot believe it. When this is applied to other parts of life history teaches us that bad s*it can happen.



First they came for for the cyclists...



tyred said:


> "Who are these oiks clogging up the roads with their monstrous, turbo-charged status symbols?"
> 
> That would be the owners of Audi turbo diesels...



Trying to compensate for something, possibly.

Quadricep deficiency perhaps ?



PaulSB said:


> Is it really worth the energy to get wound up by this type of journalism?
> 
> The Daily Telegraph is what it is. Personally I wouldn't even bother going to the website, finding snd reading the article and giving it further publicity.



I think you're largely correct.

Most of us were just here for the easy chuckles, rather than being 'wound up' 

OTOH if we don't keep an eye on stuff like this we end up in echo chambers, thinking everyone is roughly aligned thinking-wise.

I mean just look at the increasingly emboldened populist press.

And the 'anti-woke' brigade for example.

If they're 'anti woke' what's their alternative..??


'Half asleep'

So that no-one sees what's actually happening.??


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## Xipe Totec (15 Jun 2021)

This is poor little failed right-wing firebrand & polemicist Toby Young, isn't it? Presumably having a paddy because Andrew Neil hasn't given him a job on GBeebies.


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## GuyBoden (15 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> And the 'anti-woke' brigade for example.
> 
> If they're 'anti woke' what's their alternative..??


"Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice."


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> "Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice."



Indeed,

So the alternative is.??

"Nah, don't give a carp about that stuff"


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> "Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice."


Whereas 'Woking' is a term which refers to standing in the kitchen wondering what you came in here for.


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Whereas 'Woking' is a term which refers to standing in the kitchen wondering what you came in here for.



You were wanting the scissors I think..


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

Xipe Totec said:


> This is poor little failed right-wing firebrand & polemicist Toby Young, isn't it? Presumably having a paddy because Andrew Neil hasn't given him a job on GBeebies.



GBeebies 


I'm stealing that ..


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## Oldhippy (15 Jun 2021)

Please don't under rate the upstarts. Sorry to bang on, but history yet again has many examples of loading the metaphorical gun and standing back to watch the carnage whilst someone else pulls the trigger.


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> You were wanting the scissors I think..


Duck tape actually. But I'm at work trying to remember where I put it so I can tell my wife, who is in the kitchen.


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## Oldhippy (15 Jun 2021)

Did you know Duck tape contains no duck! It's a good thing of course. 😁


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Duck tape actually. But I'm at work trying to remember where I put it so I can tell my wife, who is in the kitchen.



In the fruit bowl.?

Or under a small side plate, currently hosting toast crusts ??


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Did you know Duck tape contains no duck! It's a good thing of course. 😁



This will reassure my vegan friends 🙏🏼


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## GuyBoden (15 Jun 2021)

Is Duct tape, for taping Ducts or Duck Tape for taping ducks.


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## GuyBoden (15 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Indeed,
> 
> So the alternative is.??


Education, cultural integration, wealth sharing, doing something constructive and proper handlebar tape.


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Did you know Duck tape contains no duck! It's a good thing of course. 😁


Proper duck tape is made of duck.


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## winjim (15 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> In the fruit bowl.?
> 
> Or under a small side plate, currently hosting toast crusts ??


In the angry drawer I think. Anyway she's found it and managed to install the new washing machine which is good news as five day old dirty nappies in this heat were beginning to whiff the place out a bit.


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## Oldhippy (15 Jun 2021)

Or taping duck to ducting.


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## C R (15 Jun 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Education, cultural integration, wealth sharing, doing something constructive and proper handlebar tape.


None of which the anti woke brigade are proposing.


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## Pale Rider (15 Jun 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> "Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice."



'Woke' has become a difficult word to use because its meaning is evolving.

As you say, strictly it means no more than 'aware'.

Increasingly, it is acquiring a colloquial meaning of 'wearisomely and pretentiously aware in a meddlesome and interfering way'.

Context ought to tell the reader which meaning the writer is using, but there's still a risk of miscommunication.


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## Scotty55 (15 Jun 2021)

To be fair, there are some absolute bell-ends on bikes.


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## Baldy (15 Jun 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> "Woke (/ˈwoʊk/ WOHK) is a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice."



Is it? I have been wondering what the hell people were on about. A made up word if you ask me.


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## Profpointy (15 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Against my better judgement I clicked the link. Saw the byline and closed it again.
> 
> Just to save anyone the bother, it's professional peanut Toby Young. He can get to fark.



Thanks!
Given that eloquent critique (And I am not being sarcastic) I shall give the article the swerve.

Remember folks, simply by clicking we are literally given them money to encourage killing cyclists


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## HMS_Dave (15 Jun 2021)

Scotty55 said:


> To be fair, there are some absolute bell-ends on bikes.


I choose not to look...


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## matticus (15 Jun 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> 'Woke' has become a difficult word to use because its meaning is evolving.
> 
> As you say, strictly it means no more than 'aware'.
> 
> ...


I don't think it has any fixed meaning beyond the colloquial. A quick google found the earliest citation to be 1938, and it's clearly evolved since then:


> The term was used by blues singer Lead Belly in his 1938 song ‘Scottsboro Boys’ which told the story of a group of black teenagers wrongly accused of raping young white women, saying: ‘I advise everybody, be a little careful when they go along through there – best stay woke, keep their eyes open’ – speaking of the fear in white America of black America.


From Wiki:


> Through the 2000s and early 2010s, woke was used either as a term for not literally falling asleep, or as slang for one's suspicions of being cheated on by a romantic partner



I'd say "_aware_" and "_pretentiously aware_" have pretty equal claims, if there is to be an official meaning.


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## mudsticks (15 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> In the angry drawer I think. Anyway she's found it and managed to install the new washing machine which is good news as five day old dirty nappies in this heat were beginning to whiff the place out a bit.



Is that similar to a 'kibble bowl' which always seems to contain a packet of fun sized sparklers, that no one claims ownership of, plus a selection of keys made to fit no lock ever in existence ??

Yikes yes I remember the pungent aroma of the three-day old nappy bucket , in this heat .



Baldy said:


> Is it? I have been wondering what the hell people were on about. A made up word if you ask me.



Psst Baldy..

Hate to break this to you..

But 

All words are_ made up..

_


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## Juan Kog (15 Jun 2021)

What concerns me .Toby Young allegedly a journalist ,with a very tenuous grasp of truth and facts, Writes for the Daily Telegraph and the Spectator......... 🤔 Remind you of any one else we know , and look where he moved onto after journalism . 😱


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## Joffey (15 Jun 2021)

It's a shame he isn't bright enough to realise that many people won't read to the bottom where he actually makes some sensible comments, or bright enough to realise articles like this make it worst for cyclists, including himself.


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## C R (15 Jun 2021)

Joffey said:


> It's a shame he isn't bright enough to realise that many people won't read to the bottom where he actually makes some sensible comments, or bright enough to realise articles like this make it worst for cyclists, including himself.
> 
> View attachment 594009


In this case I am disinclined to give Mr Young the benefit of the doubt, and would posit that those paragraphs are there for the purpose of plausible deniability.


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## livpoksoc (15 Jun 2021)

Urgh. This should have come with a 'Don't click or it pays Toby Young's mortage' warning. He is in that special category of daffodil who think they know everything, but are nothing more than a provocateur.


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## hatler (15 Jun 2021)

It's a strange world we inhabit where : -
a) The Torygraph think this is worth paying TY for this sort of sh1t which he puts little thought and virtually no effort to ('cos it's all been written/said before)
b) That _anyone_ pays TY for anything
c) That there are apparently people who lap this shite up


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## Andy in Germany (16 Jun 2021)

The only thing that I find surprising about this, is that people are surprised by it.

If as a society we accept one group being marginalised, be they refugees, benefits claimants, disabled people, et c, than it's only a matter of time before other groups start being singled out as well.


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## Legomutton (16 Jun 2021)

It's the sort of article Boris Johnson used to write. He thinks he's being droll. I hate it. Although there's a reasonable point buried there, in what I can only rationalise as an attempt at irony, which is that there is irrational hatred from a strident minority on both 'sides'. It's also boringly London-centric - the terrorist Deliveroo riders and couriers are overdone anyway but just don;y exist in most of the country, or even most of London. 30 years ago the DT was a good paper, but they had journalists then. Now it's irrelevant to me and has been for a long time.


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## Johnno260 (16 Jun 2021)

Scotty55 said:


> To be fair, there are some absolute bell-ends on bikes.



I would choose to say there are some absolute bell end road users as I have seen brain dead stuff from just about every road user.

And in all fairness the ones that are total douche bags on the road are probably numpties off the road too.


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## Badger_Boom (16 Jun 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> If as a society we accept one group being marginalised, be they refugees, benefits claimants, disabled people, et c, than it's only a matter of time before other groups start being singled out as well.


What puzzles me is the popularity of this ‘them and us’ culture - don’t most of its proponents not realise that they are definitely not ‘us’?


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## Andy in Germany (16 Jun 2021)

Badger_Boom said:


> What puzzles me is the popularity of this ‘them and us’ culture - don’t most of its proponents not realise that they are definitely not ‘us’?



I think we create the "us" identity first, and then decide everone else we don't like is 'them', or look for groups to make 'them'. This also explains partly why people vote for politicians that are not working in their interests: they see them as part of the same tribe.

This is the same for Populists on both left and right: both make tribes, it's just the 'them' that is different-


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## bladesman73 (16 Jun 2021)

Ahh Toby Young, the bloke too thick to get into uni so he got daddy to call in a favour from the dean for his dullard son.


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## C R (16 Jun 2021)

bladesman73 said:


> Ahh Toby Young, the bloke too thick to get into uni so he got daddy to call in a favour from the dean for his dullard son.


Do you have a reference for that? I could do with a chuckle this morning.


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## bladesman73 (16 Jun 2021)

Just had bbc suffolk on and some coffin dodger called in saying all cyclists should pay road tax, it went completely unchallenged by the presenter. That's the type of ignorance and idiocy that infects UK society and leads to the 'them and us' culture.


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## bladesman73 (16 Jun 2021)

C R said:


> Do you have a reference for that? I could do with a chuckle this morning.


This provides a brief summary. https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...ust-what-education-doesn-t-need-a3731921.html
He got Bs and Cs and got into Oxford. I got As and Bs and had no chance of Oxford but didnt have daddy make that call for me...not that I would have wanted to go there anyway as I am an oik.


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## C R (16 Jun 2021)

bladesman73 said:


> This provides a brief summary. https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/...ust-what-education-doesn-t-need-a3731921.html
> He got Bs and Cs and got into Oxford. I got As and Bs and had no chance of Oxford but didnt have daddy make that call for me...not that I would have wanted to go there anyway as I am an oik.


Just read his wiki entry, seems to be another specialist on failing upwards.


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## DaveReading (16 Jun 2021)

Johnno260 said:


> And in all fairness the ones that are total douche bags on the road are probably numpties off the road too.



In other words, if you're a moron to start with, then getting on a bike doesn't suddenly turn you into a rational human being.


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## Johnno260 (16 Jun 2021)

DaveReading said:


> In other words, if you're a moron to start with, then getting on a bike doesn't suddenly turn you into a rational human being.



Kind of, a moron is a moron regardless of what mode of transportation they’re using.

I have seen more douchery during the pandemic then before, from pretty much every type of road user.


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## Johnno260 (16 Jun 2021)

bladesman73 said:


> Just had bbc suffolk on and some coffin dodger called in saying all cyclists should pay road tax, it went completely unchallenged by the presenter. That's the type of ignorance and idiocy that infects UK society and leads to the 'them and us' culture.



when the office was open that was a weekly argument, I said EV and low emissions pay zero or very little VED why don’t you have issue with those? That I never got answered.

When the young office oik chipped in, I said road maintenance is from council tax and the main tax income, I said you don’t pay council tax as your at home still, I said I run 3 bikes 2 cars and pay council tax, and said any services I pay for or parts are all subject to VAT, and I pay council tax so according to his system I had more right to the roads, that shut him up for awhile.

Edit: they also don't get that if they want bikes legislated for with VED it will cost the tax payer with no return, as it would be classed as zero emissions, issue being as like with many things people don't think it through to conclusion.


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## Twizit (16 Jun 2021)

C R said:


> Just read his wiki entry, seems to be another specialist on failing upwards.


His Twitter name being "Toadmeister" says it all for me.


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## sheddy (17 Jun 2021)

I gave up buying the DT when they axed the road safety column on Saturday.
That could have been 20 years ago ?


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## SkipdiverJohn (17 Jun 2021)

Venod said:


> He wrote.
> 
> "Cycling is predominantly a middle class activity"



That statement is not actually wrong, the majority of the weekend warrior brigade dressed up in all the gear are not dirty hands manual workers. Ironically, playing golf of a weekend is more of a working class sport than riding bikes, despite the fact that utility cycling was once the predominant working class mass transport mode.


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## Baldy (17 Jun 2021)

Speak for yourself, I certainly identify as working class. There aren't many of us left.

And, I detest golf.


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## Venod (17 Jun 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That statement is not actually wrong, the majority of the weekend warrior brigade dressed up in all the gear are not dirty hands manual workers. Ironically, playing golf of a weekend is more of a working class sport than riding bikes, despite the fact that utility cycling was once the predominant working class mass transport mode.



I suppose it depends on what you define as working class, all the cyclists I know up here in Yorkshire would identify as working class but not all of them are dirty hands manual workers, I am not sure what makes you middle class.


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## Badger_Boom (17 Jun 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That statement is not actually wrong, the majority of the weekend warrior brigade dressed up in all the gear are not dirty hands manual workers. Ironically, playing golf of a weekend is more of a working class sport than riding bikes, despite the fact that utility cycling was once the predominant working class mass transport mode.


One of the two most obsessive cyclist I‘ve ever known worked in a foundry in Sheffield and definitely wasn’t middle class. I’m not even sure he ever owned a car. In the later 20th century I suspect he was an oddity among the recreational riders.


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## snorri (18 Jun 2021)

Venod said:


> I suppose it depends on what you define as working class, all the cyclists I know up here in Yorkshire would identify as working class but not all of them are dirty hands manual workers, I am not sure what makes you middle class.


After defining working class you have to get round to defining 'cyclist' which could be a much more thorny issue.


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## matticus (18 Jun 2021)

I've definitely ridden with cyclists from a wide spectrum. I would say the trend is that newer/younger riders are more likely to be graduates/professionals etc. A couple of older riders that spring to mind (locally) are a gardener and a plasterer. I also know dentists, stockbrokers etc etc ...


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## CanucksTraveller (18 Jun 2021)

Having a quick think about the people I know socially that cycle, there's a landscape gardener and his wife who's a full time Mum, a couple where the man does IT of some sort and the lady is a senior nurse, two retired old guys who were in fairly manual professions, one Police Inspector, one builder and his wife who is a shop worker, and one former city trader who has a garage full of Bianchis. So as I expected before I did the adding up, it's a broad spread with cycling rather than class being the one common thread. Not especially scientific, but certainly no less so than saying "cycling is a middle class activity" and at least I have a data sample. 
So that's another lazy generalisation that disappears in a puff of logic the first time it's examined. Not great at this social commentary lark is he?


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## RoMeR (18 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Proper duck tape is made of duck.


The last time I bought Duck tape I couldn't believe the bill.


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## matticus (18 Jun 2021)

snorri said:


> After defining working class you have to get round to defining 'cyclist' which could be a much more thorny issue.


Perhaps if you cycle to work but not for pleasure, that indicates what class you are in?? :P (or of course vice versa)


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## Andy in Germany (18 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> Perhaps if you cycle to work but not for pleasure, that indicates what class you are in?? :P (or of course vice versa)



But... I cycle for work and pleasure, often _at the same time_....

Now I'm totally confused...


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## C R (18 Jun 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> But... I cycle for work and pleasure, often _at the same time_....
> 
> Now I'm totally confused...


Same here.


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## matticus (18 Jun 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> But... I cycle for work and pleasure, often _at the same time_....
> 
> Now I'm totally confused...


Hmm, tricky. Perhaps it means you are aspirational?


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## Boopop (18 Jun 2021)

Venod said:


> I suppose it depends on what you define as working class, all the cyclists I know up here in Yorkshire would identify as working class but not all of them are dirty hands manual workers, I am not sure what makes you middle class.



I can clear it up for us pretty easily I think.

Majority of *sports *cyclists = probably middle class and upwards. Majority of *utility* cyclists are probably working class. They're the ones that we should be campaigning for, both the existing utility riders and those that are stuck in their car for fear of getting run over due to lack of safe cycle routes for short journeys.

I suspect most people who more easily fall in to working class category sadly would find it more difficult to find the time for a cycling club, which I think is what helps turn a lot of people from bike-curious (South Park reference 😂) to bike-obsessive.

I imagine most sports cyclists can look after themselves other than better law enforcement/highway code. I don't think anyone's expecting hundreds of miles of segregated cycle lane between towns and cities just yet (we can dream). We need to cater for the everyday utility riders within their own sub-urb/town/city with better infrastructure first, and even there we're mostly failing at the moment


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## kingrollo (18 Jun 2021)

Baldy said:


> Speak for yourself, I certainly identify as working class. There aren't many of us left.
> 
> And, I detest golf.


Me to ! (Bald Also) !!!


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## matticus (18 Jun 2021)

I identify as a Proper Cyclist.


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## Venod (18 Jun 2021)

Boopop said:


> Majority of *sports *cyclists = probably middle class and upwards. Majority of *utility* cyclists are probably working class.



This is a too simplistic definition and doesn't match my experience.

In my 1980's club, I would say all the road racers and time trialists were working class, most recent club all the road racers and time trialists are working class, albeit with a bit more spare cash than the 1980's but I am a passionate hater of pigeon holing people into classes, working cyclists is probably a better description.


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## Shortandcrisp (18 Jun 2021)

I really can’t be bothered to listen to all the road tax, red light hopping, insurance dodging, Lycra clad middle class b*llocks anymore when we all know this really only means get out of my way, you’re holding me up for 10 seconds.


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## matticus (18 Jun 2021)

Venod said:


> This is a too simplistic definition and doesn't match my experience.


"The majority of cyclists don't live in Yorkshire."

... is a correct statement, even though it doesn't match your experience. Is it simplistic?? :-)


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## Oldhippy (18 Jun 2021)

I identify as a human being who happens to ride bike for transport. 😁


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## RoMeR (18 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I identify as a human being who happens to ride bike for transport. 😁


+ sheer enjoyment.


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## Boopop (18 Jun 2021)

Venod said:


> This is a too simplistic definition and doesn't match my experience.
> 
> In my 1980's club, I would say all the road racers and time trialists were working class, most recent club all the road racers and time trialists are working class, albeit with a bit more spare cash than the 1980's but I am a passionate hater of pigeon holing people into classes, working cyclists is probably a better description.



Well of course it's an over simplification, I wasn't claiming it was the definitive description 

My local club is mostly middle class I think.

Even in the 80's there were fewer cars than now. I think my deduction is based on the idea that the middle class has been able to switch to driving as the roads have become more crowded with motor vehicles (and thus an increased fear of traffic violence). Those that can't afford a car don't have much choice, especially if public transport is lacking.


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## RoMeR (18 Jun 2021)

I am 71 and in all my years of meeting people both hillwalking & cycling I have never once thought about their class or race, we have all been enjoying the great outdoors, the thing that binds us. Perhaps I'm just a old hippy and proud of it.


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## Oldhippy (18 Jun 2021)

✌


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## Boopop (18 Jun 2021)

RoMeR said:


> I am 71 and in all my years of meeting people both hillwalking & cycling I have never once thought about their class or race, we have all been enjoying the great outdoors, the thing that binds us. Perhaps I'm just a old hippy and proud of it.



I think it's important when talking about infrastucture and advocacy/campaigning work though. I doubt anyone actually cares what mix of social class is in their local cycling club particularly. People who cycle for work, taking children to school, and general errands will sometimes be doing so because they cannot afford a car and have no other option. Safer streets and drivers for sports cycling is important, sure, but not being able to go on a club ride isn't stopping them from going to work, or getting the groceries. I think it's more important for the sake of those that _*have to *_cycle to go about their daily lives.

I'm not trying to minimise the benefits of sport and socialising, just pointing out that I think direct, convenient and above all safe cycling routes benefits the poorest in society the most.

EDIT: Here's a hot take I came up with a few days ago I was quite pleased with:

""I need to educate my child but can't afford private school."
"Send them to state school!"
"I need an operation but can't afford private healthcare."
"Use the NHS!"
"I need to travel 8 miles per day, can't afford a car or taxis. There's no bus route and I don't feel safe cycling on the road."
"Sorry!"
Why isn't affordable, safe and convenient local transport considered as important as all this other stuff? Isn't it just as crucial to being a functioning member of society?""


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## Oldhippy (18 Jun 2021)

Peter Walker says it all in Bike nation. If there was ever a book about doing it right this is it.


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## Andy in Germany (18 Jun 2021)

Boopop said:


> Why isn't affordable, safe and convenient local transport considered as important as all this other stuff? Isn't it just as crucial to being a functioning member of society?""



Especially as affordable, safe and convenient active travel and public transport is a lot cheaper to provide than the other two, and arguably helps efforts in healthcare and education.

I currently travel about 8 miles to work, in a rural area. About 100m of that is on a busy road, the rest is either on traffic free routes or traffic calmed residential streets.


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## RoMeR (18 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Peter Walker says it all in Bike nation. If there was ever a book about doing it right this is it.


Will have a look for it, thanks.


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## Venod (18 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> The majority of cyclists don't live in Yorkshire but those that do are awesome."



Fixed that for you.


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## Lovacott (18 Jun 2021)

Jody said:


> Only made it to the first line of the second paragraph.


It's a brilliant article because I found out that by being a cyclist, I don't pay any road tax or insurance.

So with me being a cyclist and armed with this new information, I'll be on to the DVLA and Churchill in the morning for 42 years worth of tax and insurance refunds.

Nice.


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## Dwn (18 Jun 2021)

Toby’s father was a great man - amongst other things he drafted the Labour Party Manifesto in 1945 and was the driving force behind the creation of a whole range of organisations, not the least of which was the Open University. 

Toby, on the other hand, is an attention seeking clown who has managed to parlay an ability to talk rubbish into a good living. He’s an embarrassment.


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## SkipdiverJohn (19 Jun 2021)

Boopop said:


> Majority of *sports *cyclists = probably middle class and upwards. Majority of *utility* cyclists are probably working class. ....
> 
> I suspect most people who more easily fall in to working class category sadly would find it more difficult to find the time for a cycling club, which I think is what helps turn a lot of people from bike-curious (South Park reference 😂) to bike-obsessive.



I would not disagree with the first two lines in the post above, and it tends to reflect my own observations.

However, I think that to categorise riders into purely sports or utility is a bit over simplistic. There are quite a big chunk who are neither utility or sports riders as such; i.e. they are not obsessed by cycling performance, and they don't necessarily ride to work or to do their daily errands either - but they do still ride when they feel like it, just for a bit of fresh air and pleasant scenery. Probably much of Halfords core customer base in fact!
One of the reasons I suspect road cycling is largely not a working class pastime, is if someone does a physical job all week, and possibly even rides to work, they are unlikely to have the time or energy left to indulge in sports cycling during their free time. They are more likely to want to put their feet up and relax after a week of graft, not go out and tire themselves out even more, then have to get up for work again Monday.


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## Lovacott (19 Jun 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> However, I think that to categorise riders into purely sports or utility is a bit over simplistic. There are quite a big chunk who are neither utility or sports riders as such;


Reality is, I don't know anybody who couldn't be classified as a "cyclist" at some point or another.

Pretty much everybody has a bike in the shed and the moment they dust it off and pump up the tyres for a Sunday afternoon two mile jolly down the canal tow path, they become a "Cyclist".

If they happen to slow a few cars down on the 500 yard section of road to the canal, they become a "Bloody Cyclist". 

If they happen to wear a helmet and a some old cycling gear whilst doing so, they become a "Lycra Lout".

Once back home and with the bike safely tucked away behind the lawn mower ready for next years sunny day trip to the local beer garden, they become normal human beings again.


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