# Back pain, wrong bike, give up?



## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

UPDATE: PAGE 3
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With an office move nearer to my home I embraced the idea of cycling to work and bought a bike. Being overweight, in my forties and living in the Chiltern Hills, I bought an electric bike (after consulting with the man in the local shop).

Two months in and I keep feeling unwell, then a coule of migraines sed me to the physio with very tight neck muscles. These are common in cycling, but will bet better as I get used to it she says. She loosens me up, I feel the tension across my back and neck after I go riding again. Another physio appointment and I don't go on the bike again until an appointment at a bike shop to check positioning (not the shop where I bought the bike).

Bike guy says position I am riding is putting strain on my lower back which is likely spreading up my spine. Because I am short, I am having to stretch for the handle bars. The upright position of the bike (Dutch style) is not good for back outside of flat Dutch countryside. Unfortunately, my bike is not very adjustable and he can't change my position. He would have sold me a road bike instead -- I have a quick try on one (leaning forward like they do on Tour de France) and I *think* I feel no strain on my back, but I only go round the carpark.

Do I believe him? I'm now scared to ride my bike because it appears it's making me ill. I've had some migraines would have caused me to go off sick at work over the last couple of months if I wasn't on a late shift and could dose up with painkillers before going in. I thought it was stress of the move, then I thought it was a bit of ordinary muscle tension, then I thought I had a bug, but maybe it's the bike.

Don't know what to do now. Sell the bike, I guess. Then try a road bike? Or just give up and go back to the gym? I'm not someone who wants to be a cycling trailblaser. I just want to get fit by incorporating exercise into my life.

Sorry this is so long. Any help welcome.


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## cyberknight (16 Aug 2015)

Is it upper or lower back pain , what bike and what size is it if you know and what height are you ?


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## screenman (16 Aug 2015)

Do you do a daily stretching regime, have you done anything about the weight, which is more of a problem than the bike.


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## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

Forgot to say what bike I have. I have a Freego Wren. It is upper back pain. I am five feet tall.

I am doing something about my weight -- I took up cycling!


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## cyberknight (16 Aug 2015)

ooph 22 kg weight !
You would probably have been better with a lighter hybrid as your lugging a lot of bike weight when the motor is not assisting , as far as the back ache goes it sounds like you need a shorter , higher stem
The stem on that bike looks like and adjustable quill stem, have you got the handle bars raised as high as they can go and has the LBS raised the height of the bars by making the stem stick out more from the frame ?
If so you can still get shorter , angled stems or convert the bike with a ahead set adapter to change the stem to the newer design so you can fit a shorter , angled stem to reduce reach as it sounds to me like your overreaching to the bars and the bike shop doesnt sound like he wants to help besides selling you another bike.
Of course this is all conjecture based on what you have said so far.


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## marzjennings (16 Aug 2015)

Short_Lass said:


> Bike guy says position I am riding is putting strain on my lower back which is likely spreading up my spine. Because I am short, I am having to stretch for the handle bars. The upright position of the bike (Dutch style) is not good for back outside of flat Dutch countryside. Unfortunately, my bike is not very adjustable and he can't change my position. He would have sold me a road bike instead -- I have a quick try on one (leaning forward like they do on Tour de France) and I *think* I feel no strain on my back, but I only go round the carpark.
> 
> Do I believe him? I'm now scared to ride my bike because it appears it's making me ill. I've had some migraines would have caused me to go off sick at work over the last couple of months if I wasn't on a late shift and could dose up with painkillers before going in. I thought it was stress of the move, then I thought it was a bit of ordinary muscle tension, then I thought I had a bug, but maybe it's the bike.
> 
> ...



I'm struggling to understand why the bike is not adjustable. Surely handle bar and seat height are adjustable. Also if you're going electric then there are plenty of dutch style upright bikes available and dutch style bikes, if appropriately geared, are fine up and down hills. 
I've never heard of a road bike helping with back issues, usually they exacerbate existing back issues.

So this guy at the bike shop initially sold you an e-bike that didn't fit you and is now attempting to sell you a drop bar road bike to solve back pain issues. Is there another shop you can go to?


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## screenman (16 Aug 2015)

Short_Lass said:


> Forgot to say what bike I have. I have a Freego Wren. It is upper back pain. I am five feet tall.
> 
> I am doing something about my weight -- I took up cycling!



So no stretching, which really can help. A good diet is a better way to lose weight that a little cycling.

But all credit to you for recognizing there may be a problem and wanting to do something about it.

I was obese fir a while until I realised it took 2 minutes to eat a mars bar and an hour to work it off.

I have no idea how much you need to lose, but try finding something that weighs the same and see what it feels like, it can be a huge wake up call. I had to find a 25 litre container of water.


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## screenman (16 Aug 2015)

After suffering a non cycling related back injury many years ago, lowering the stem and stretching out was more comfortable to me, as it spread the load more. Or so it seemed.


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## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

marzjennings said:


> I'm struggling to understand why the bike is not adjustable. Surely handle bar and seat height are adjustable. Also if you're going electric then there are plenty of dutch style upright bikes available and dutch style bikes, if appropriately geared, are fine up and down hills.
> I've never heard of a road bike helping with back issues, usually they exacerbate existing back issues.
> 
> So this guy at the bike shop initially sold you an e-bike that didn't fit you and is now attempting to sell you a drop bar road bike to solve back pain issues. Is there another shop you can go to?


Shop 1 sold me the bike, I went for positioning to shop 2 because they offer the service. He wasn't really trying to sell me a bike, just saying that a road bike would be more adjustable.
The saddle on my bike will adjust up and down. The handlebars will go up or down. But that's it.

I thought the same about the leaning forward position and back strain, so I wanted to be upright. Physio also says be upright, but maybe that's wrong. I'm not an expert.


screenman said:


> So no stretching, which really can help. A good diet is a better way to lose weight that a little cycling.er.


I stretch. It doesn't help.
A diet can help with weight loss? Who'd have thought?

I am about a stone overweight, I am not enormous. I was just saying I'm not exactly athletic


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## screenman (16 Aug 2015)

I apologise, you could soon turn that little bit into athletic. People often take up cycling to lose weight which to be fair is not the most effective way to shed the pounds, which is why I mentioned diet.

I am glad you stretch as most people do not. I have a 30 minute session 7 days a week, I feel it the next day if for some reason I miss a day.


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## cyberknight (16 Aug 2015)

The angle of your back is only a part of a comfy fit .


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## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

The plan was to watch my diet with the new cycling regime. It makes it more difficult to stop off at the takeaway on the way home! Besides, when I'm in the exercise groove, I tend not to over eat in the same way. I may get hungry, but because I've burned calories rather than craving chocolate! But I've been unwell a lot recently and this plan hasn't quite worked out.

Of all the things I thiught might go wrong with cycling -- falling off, rude motorists, gettimg rained on -- I never anticipated back strain leading to migraine and queasiness. Assuming that's the problem, which I am starting to suspect is the case. I just don't know who to believe now and what to do about it. One needs willpower not to get in the car and drive to work and to eat sensibly and that willpower has somewhat been worn down.


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## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

cyberknight said:


> The angle of your back is only a part of a comfy fit .



Bike guy said as he couldn't make many adjustments there was little he could do about a comfy fit. I may have been preoccupied with my back. But he's a cycling purist and the shop doesn't sell electric bikes, he was a bit shocked to see one. And he charged me £30 just for putting the handlebars down a few inches. So I'm not going back to that shop, but I remain confused.

Thank you everyone for replying. I will chat with physio again when I see her on Wednesday. Maybe she'll have some ideas.


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## velovoice (16 Aug 2015)

You mention the Chilterns - where abouts do you live? I could maybe recommend a few therapists who really understand what the body goes through from cycling. I also suffer from migraines. Those can be real b*st*rds. Hope you feel better soon.


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## ayceejay (16 Aug 2015)

Their are several pictures of your bike below Short Lass, the girl at the top looks comfortable on the bike as does the man below.but the woman does not look comfortable - which one are you?
A common cause of migraine is stress, are you a little bit repetitious whenyou go out as a new comer?


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## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

Velovoice: I cansee Whipsnade Zoo from my window. I see Laura Dent, a sports therapist in Berkhamsted.


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## Short_Lass (16 Aug 2015)

Aceejay: i would say I am leaning further forward than all of those pictures. Less upright. But I've never seen myself! Maybe I will ask a family member to take a pic so I can see. But when it's not dark (like it is now)

I thiught stress with the office move, but I think that may havebeen just a contributing factor. Physio said my neck was solid when I saw her. I had two hour sessions, the first sorted out the outer muscles and she got deeper on the second appointment.


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## annedonnelly (16 Aug 2015)

In your office move have you ended up sitting in a different type of chair? It could be that. A lot of things have changed for you all at once - it might not be the bike, or it might be the bike combined with other things.


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## ayceejay (16 Aug 2015)

Short_Lass said:


> Aceejay: i would say I am leaning further forward than all of those pictures. Less upright. But I've never seen myself! Maybe I will ask a family member to take a pic so I can see. But when it's not dark (like it is now)
> 
> I thiught stress with the office move, but I think that may havebeen just a contributing factor. Physio said my neck was solid when I saw her. I had two hour sessions, the first sorted out the outer muscles and she got deeper on the second appointment.


\

Post that picture here. put a bag over your head to maintain your privacy


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## mjr (17 Aug 2015)

You might want to lower the gearing, but Dutch bikes should be fine unless you're scaling the Dunstable downs often, but then there's the electric.

I don't like the sound of the fitter who can't adjust a Dutch bike! As a minimum, the saddle should move forwards/backwards as well as up/down, although that might not help as it changes your position over the pedals. If you're at the full extent of an adjustable stem, to bring the handlebars towards you probably means replacing the stem with a shorter one or replacing the bars with some that sweep or stretch further back (velo Orange probably have some if mainstream brands like Raleigh don't go far enough for you). If it's a road bike sort of shop, they might only have parts for aheadsets in stock and maybe don't know about or don't want to order in some quill stems and bars that are unlikely ever to be put on a road bike!

Don't be scared, maybe take a trip to Cambridge or Oxford to a practical bike shop for tips on how to set up an upright bike and deal with the other stresses when you can. Good luck!


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## Short_Lass (17 Aug 2015)

Mjray: That sounds like a plan.

It really appears that the seat / handlebars will only go up and down (not forwards or backwards). The guy seems to think that they are too far apart for me to reach comfortably. It's partly because the stem which holds the seat also holds the battery and this is fixed. I'm not going up and down Dunstable Downs, there is just a few steady inclines that go on for a mile on the way to work to negotiate. My legs have got a little used to it now, however.

But the interesting thing is that no one here seemed to endorse what he said about this position causing back pain. It does mean I am left a little confused. I'm going to call bike shop #3 today, I think.


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## Aunty Tyke (17 Aug 2015)

ayceejay said:


> Their are several pictures of your bike below Short Lass, the girl at the top looks comfortable on the bike as does the man below.but the woman does not look comfortable - which one are you?
> A common cause of migraine is stress, are you a little bit repetitious whenyou go out as a new comer?
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect illustration of the importance of getting your bike set up for you,the woman at the bottom looks like cycling round the block would cause a problem. Heaps of good independant bike shops in Oxfordshire,good luck


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## Short_Lass (17 Aug 2015)

A horrible picture of me on my bike. It's on the stand, so I'm not actually riding it here. I feels like I am leaning more forward than I actually am. Apparently I lean a bit more forward very slightly when riding but not much. I appear to look like that uncomfortable woman pictured above. The only adjustment the bike guy made was putting the handlebars down by about three inches. They don't go lower. Saddle is about at the right height for leg length.

I got this bike because: "The Freego Wren is a specifically designed electric bike for those of a slighter stature, with its 24" wheels and smaller frame it is perfectly built with that regard whilst still maintaining elegance, style, power and comfort."


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## mjr (17 Aug 2015)

I agree, you're leant forwards too much for an upright bike. If you've a bad back, I suspect it would be straining back, shoulders and neck - or if you lean onto the handlebars, it'll strain the shoulders, arms and usually wrists. I'd expect the same would happen if there's not enough core strength to hold such a lean for long, but a bad back would hinder building core strength, so who knows? I'm no physio 

At a glance, that looks an OK handlebar height. You don't need them any further down: you need them aft. I can't zoom in on the picture to see, but that looks like quite a long stem between the steerer and the bars. Does it have a hex head on one side of the bend to allow you to bring the bars further towards you? And then you'll need to undo the bolts around the bar clamp a bit to get them horizontalish again. Take note of how much you undo any bolt so you can do them up the same amount. Probably measure how much you move them, if you can. Adjustable stems sometimes have markings around the joint.

If that can't come towards you enough, you could replace the stem (or have it replaced by a shop) with a "short reach" one like this which I've got on one of my uprights: http://www.freemanscycles.co.uk/raleigh-short-reach-stem.html

And if that's still not enough, you could replace the bars with some that come further back, like this which I've got on another upright: http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/handlebars/vo-montmartre-handlebar.html

But all this is guesswork and fiddling based on incomplete experience really. I've been setting my own bikes up for decades and I still get it wrong sometimes. It would be best to go to some shop that knows upright bikes and e-bikes. That should have been the first shop  Any reason not to take it back to them to see if they can adjust it? Sadly, because I fiddle with my own setups, I'm not sure which shops are any good 

I'm surprised if there's no bolt(s) under the saddle to let it move forwards/backwards, but the saddle position doesn't look seriously wrong to me so I'm not going to worry about it further now


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## jonny jeez (17 Aug 2015)

I believe the guy in the shop believes he is right.

Whetet he is or not is really hard to know.

Why not consider renting a road bike for a week, put the same miles under the wheels and see how you feel, it'll probably cost less than £50.

If he is right, then part ex the existing bike for a road bike.


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## cyberknight (17 Aug 2015)

TMN to me  regarding handle bar adjustment


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## velovoice (17 Aug 2015)

Short_Lass said:


> Velovoice: I cansee Whipsnade Zoo from my window. I see Laura Dent, a sports therapist in Berkhamsted.


Okay. I see David McGill, a sports therapist who specialises in corrective exercise. He's particularly good at alignment and muscle balance issues and a genius at soft tissue release. He's also a keen cyclist. He has others on his team who do the same thing. I see him in Harpenden but I believe they offer appointments in Berkhamsted and maybe Hemel too.

Whatever the cause, it does sound like something is stressing your upper back and neck -- which is a frequent migraine trigger for me, too. Targeted exercises would almost certainly help. Hope you find a solution soon!


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## mjr (17 Aug 2015)

I've been pondering a bit more. Looked at the photos on the end of page 1 on a larger screen and the photo of your position. Thought about the road bike comments and my own riding on different bikes. Riding upright probably does put more demands on the lower back to keep you balanced. When riding long distances on my comfy roadster, I mix it up a bit by holding the U-shaped bar near the stem and leaning forwards sometimes (which is also good for aerodynamics).

The other way to go with a bike is to aim for a more athletic position by moving the saddle back (and probably slightly down to keep the pedal-seat distance constant) until you find a possible sweet spot where there's almost no weight on your hands on the bars - maybe start with the bars in the position that bike shop 2 left them. But then we're worrying about the bolt under the saddle again and possibly spinning the saddle clamp through 180° or swapping the seatpost for one with more setback if it doesn't have any.

I think leaning forwards more and making an effort not to hunch the back reduces the direct weight on the lower back but places more demands on the muscles. It seems like it would become uncomfortable sooner but the muscles should slowly adapt and strengthen, allowing riding a bit further or the bars to go a bit more forwards and down and so on and so on... which I think is how I ended up able to ride road bikes with the bars below the saddle. http://sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#back and its links to posture and "hands up!"


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## fossyant (17 Aug 2015)

Not too much wrong with the position. I feel it's because you aren't used to riding. Don't even consider a road bike just yet as this will knacker your back and neck if you are struggling with your current position.


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## velovoice (17 Aug 2015)

@mjray I see where you're going with this, and for a lot of people who are in basically good shape in terms of balanced strength and flexibility, this makes a great deal of sense. However...



mjray said:


> ... aim for a more athletic position by moving the saddle back...


Saddle fore/aft position is the very first step in bike fit and is dictated by the knees. You cannot then shift the saddle fore or aft to try and address reach issues or 'too much weight on hands' issues or any of the other problems commonly encountered for which people often go straight to saddle fore/aft.

If the saddle is in the right fore/aft position for the knees and, following from that, at the correct height (or within a tolerable window or range) for correct knee extension - then set it there and don't mess with it. Issues with the back, neck, shoulders, etc have their solutions elsewhere on the bike.

Please let's not lose sight of the possibility that, if the bike is not _causing _the problem, it may well be _aggravating _it. The cause needs to be identified and sort out, off the bike first, and then some muscle re-conditioning may be needed to ensure painfree cycling as well.

I've dealt with _*a lot* _of cycling pain from poor fit, now resolved thankfully, but have in the process realised that what you do when you're _*not* _engaged in a particular sport or physical activity is often key to being able to partake in that sport/activity without pain, which is a necessary stage to reach if you wish to get stronger/faster or in any other way progress in a way that makes you feel happy and proud, not discouraged and miserable.


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## ayceejay (17 Aug 2015)

Your position on the bike looks pretty good to me, perhaps more of a bend in the arms and maybe turn the handlebars down so that the grips are not flat. Loosen the bolts holding the handlebars slightly then hold the grips and pull them towards you and down = just a bit. You will note the girl in the white skirt - the top of her head is in line with her coccyx her arms slightly bent and wrists straight = in other words she looks relaxed, this is what you should aim for.


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## mjr (17 Aug 2015)

velovoice said:


> Saddle fore/aft position is the very first step in bike fit and is dictated by the knees.


In the words of Mencken, "There is always an easy solution to every human problem–neat, plausible, and wrong."

While it forms the basis of many bike fit methods and I'd agree it's a constraint, knees do not _dictate_ the saddle position completely. Why would it? Your knee isn't part of the saddle! See http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html for another view but surely you've noticed that how far back you want your bum varies with the counterbalancing needed as you lean forwards more? If there was One True Saddle Position for you, you'd be either sitting on the saddle nose on upright bikes (ow!) or flopping over the back on full-speed road bikes (chafe away!). This may be more obvious for riders who often switch between completely different styles of bike.

There are limits and note I was _assuming_ that the bike fitter put the handlebars in a sensible position for an athletic fit (based on the description and attempt to recommend a road bike) which may not be the case and so it may all not work because I'd agree you can't completely vary the position to reduce the weight on the hands.


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## velovoice (17 Aug 2015)

mjray said:


> In the words of Mencken, "There is always an easy solution to every human problem–neat, plausible, and wrong."
> 
> While it forms the basis of many bike fit methods and I'd agree it's a constraint, knees do not _dictate_ the saddle position completely. Why would it? Your knee isn't part of the saddle! See http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html for another view but surely you've noticed that how far back you want your bum varies with the counterbalancing needed as you lean forwards more? If there was One True Saddle Position for you, you'd be either sitting on the saddle nose on upright bikes (ow!) or flopping over the back on full-speed road bikes (chafe away!). This may be more obvious for riders who often switch between completely different styles of bike.
> 
> There are limits and note I was _assuming_ that the bike fitter put the handlebars in a sensible position for an athletic fit (based on the description and attempt to recommend a road bike) which may not be the case and so it may all not work because I'd agree you can't completely vary the position to reduce the weight on the hands.


Oh good, we are talking about the same thing, just approaching from opposite ends. Will respond after work, so we can target the info to help @Short_Lass.


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## Short_Lass (17 Aug 2015)

LATEST!
Cycling colleagues at work say man from shop #2 was talking twaddle and there must be a way to adjust the bike more than he claimed. So I rang the second shop again and asked to speak to their top bike expert. They agree with the twaddle analysis and say there are loads of ways to adjust the bike I have including moving seat or handlebars backwards or forwards. Or even mounting different handlebars on the stem. So I feel very let down by the "expert" at the second shop who charged me £30 and told me my bike was unsuitable.
I can't get to the shop until next week (as he's only working when I'm at work this week), but will definitely be going in on Monday. Much relieved that this cycling thing maybe ok after all.
Thanks for all responses. It was interesting that no one seemed to agree with the "expert" I saw that the upright position was a problem, so that encouraged me to find another solution.
Will try to update you again next week.


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