# Just can't get above 16mph average :-(



## Easytigers (10 Aug 2013)

Have been cycling a while now (so sorry for posting in beginners, but still feel like one!). I commute to work when I can...so most days in term-time, about 10 miles each way. I just can't seem to get past the 16mph average, even when I feel like I'm pushing it. It's sooo frustrating! 
I guess the real reason it's frustrating is that it's probably down to my weight. I'm 5'9" and about 13 stone. My thinking was that if I just kept at it then the weight wouldn't matter and I'd just naturally get fitter (and faster!).
I feel a whole lot fitter...just not faster!!!
Any help?
Russ


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## Louch (10 Aug 2013)

Depend on your route Russ. If there's a decent amount of climbing, your average is great at 16 solo


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## Hill Wimp (10 Aug 2013)

Have to agree with @Louch. Could be that you have become stale on your route or that you may need to set yourself courses within your route ie mile blasts, road and traffic allowing of course. What other cycling are you doing outside of your commute.

16mph if that's on the flat is pretty good.


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## Supersuperleeds (10 Aug 2013)

Do you carry panniers / rucksack on the commute? I find that my rucksack really slows me down, on a weekend ride I can comfortably do 16 mph plus, on my commute most rides are nearer 15mph.


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## neil_merseyside (10 Aug 2013)

I've 2500 miles in this year and average 4000 most years and I only ever average 10 -12mph. If you have lots of stops and starts on commute then average plummets, I travel at around 16-18 but traffic brings it down hugely to around 10, and a 'high' as 12 on a less turn intensive route. 

If I put my cycle computer on manual and start and stop recording only while riding then I can creep the numbers up a bit ;-) 

Some of my lack of speed is perhaps me being still a little bit heavy - 6'2" and 13.5 stone but it isn't hilly here so I doubt that is the cause. 

Don't worry about it, that's or Froome and Wiggo et al.


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## SWSteve (10 Aug 2013)

16mph on a commute! Is there much traffic? If yours is anything like mine the first 2 miles kill all speed for the whole journey


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## jim55 (10 Aug 2013)

yeah im the same ,on the flat i can maintain about 18 (in fact i was out on a ride a few weeks ago i done a well known tt road -pretty straight and flat and i rode at max 26 min 22 for the whole rd ,3 mile )so im not the slowest ever (nor fastest)
but on my commute of 7 miles including cycle paths and bumping up pavements and stuff and a fair bit of stopping/slowing for traffic and lights,my average stays around 12.4 mph ,iv had it at 15 once but it was a lot of green lights and hardly any slowing down aproaching lights and junctions


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## Andrew_P (10 Aug 2013)

How long is a while? What sort of bike? What sort of ascent? Loads of things effect your average. I am almost always racing against my best time on the commute. I decided it would be safer to remove the stops so my Garmin autostops now been set like that for two years now. That way I get a fairly even picture about my times and speed over different time periods.


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## HLaB (10 Aug 2013)

Like said it depends on terrain and traffic etc. For instance in the latter (because terrain is not a issue in Peterborough  ), if I go a relatively short way into town my averages on the heavy fixie can be 10-15mph but a longer out of town commute even with climbing is a more consistent 16.5-17mph.


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2013)

Don't worry about the average speed on a commute. Even with auto pause then 16 isn't bad at all.


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## Easytigers (11 Aug 2013)

Thanks for the replies guys. Unfortunately I don't have many excuses! On a road bike and the commute is on country lanes so not much slowing down. I do carry a backpack and it does tend to be reasonable heavy (laptop, books etc)...the problem is that I'm still averaging below 16mph on the weekend rides as well. Could it be that I'm just so used to the speed/cadence that I use everyday that I'm not really pushing it? Thinking of trying to introduce some sprints or high intensity pushes on the flats as part of each ride to mix it up. Would this make a difference?
Also just wanted to say that although this thread is primarily about speed, I do just love getting out and about, enjoying the lanes and putting the world to rights as I cycle! It's just frustrating when I look at people's rides on Strava or read about them in various magazines where everyone seems to be riding about 18-20mph averages over 30+mile rides!!!


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## Louch (11 Aug 2013)

They will likely be riding in groups, cycling is just one of many things where quicker isn't always better .


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## BSRU (11 Aug 2013)

Unless your in to competitive riding why bother comparing yourself to anyone else(complete strangers)?, Why worry about increasing your average?
Just keep enjoying the bike and putting the miles in


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Aug 2013)

Easytigers said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. Unfortunately I don't have many excuses! On a road bike and the commute is on country lanes so not much slowing down. I do carry a backpack and it does tend to be reasonable heavy (laptop, books etc)...the problem is that I'm still averaging below 16mph on the weekend rides as well. Could it be that I'm just so used to the speed/cadence that I use everyday that I'm not really pushing it? Thinking of trying to introduce some sprints or high intensity pushes on the flats as part of each ride to mix it up. Would this make a difference?
> Also just wanted to say that although this thread is primarily about speed, *I do just love getting out and about,* enjoying the lanes and putting the world to rights as I cycle! It's just frustrating when I look at people's rides on Strava or read about them in various magazines where everyone seems to be riding about 18-20mph averages over 30+mile rides!!!


 
I think you are stressing about something that matters very little in the grand scheme of things - just concentrate on the bit that you like.

Many cyclists do like to see their performance improve or not deteriorate or if it is deteriorating for it to be a gentle decline. So that's natural but if you're not getting any faster so what? Life over? There's a whole heap of people who are infirm/disabled who'd love to be able to swap places with you.

Sometimes life's about counting your blessings.


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## Andrew_Culture (11 Aug 2013)

My average is always the same and appears unaffected by which bike I'm on, how awake or fit I feel or how badly I need a poo.


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## Banjo (11 Aug 2013)

You say much of your ride is on country lanes. I allways find country lanes (even well surfaced ones) much slower than A roads.Stopping and starting at junctions really kills your speed.

You are almost exactly the same weight and height as me. I think we would be racing snakes if we dumped the extra stone.I cant get motivated enough at the moment to lose it .


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## numbnuts (11 Aug 2013)

"16mph average" .... only in my dreams


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## Easytigers (11 Aug 2013)

Again, thank you...I'm getting through the fact that it probably doesn't matter that much...guess it's easy to be that 'grass is greener' guy who always wants the new bike, kit, better speeds,longer rides and forget how lucky I am (thanks SpokeyDokey )
BTW - I do want the new bike, kit, better speeds, longer rides still!!! But back in perspective for a little while...

Banjo - We'll lose the weight next month (that's what I keep saying to myself!)


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## vickster (11 Aug 2013)

Spend some money on better wheels and tyres?

My average is around 13-15mph, then I am female, on the heavy side, 41 and constantly ride in traffic on **** roads!


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## Andrew_P (11 Aug 2013)

Easytigers said:


> Again, thank you...I'm getting through the fact that it probably doesn't matter that much...guess it's easy to be that 'grass is greener' guy who always wants the new bike, kit, better speeds,longer rides and forget how lucky I am (thanks SpokeyDokey )
> BTW - I do want the new bike, kit, better speeds, longer rides still!!! But back in perspective for a little while...
> 
> Banjo - We'll lose the weight next month (that's what I keep saying to myself!)


I have found that riding through the winter as consistently as I do in the summer brings on a leap up in average speed come April/May/June I know this won't happen much more but for definite the first three years have shown improvement year on year.


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## Andrew_P (11 Aug 2013)

BSRU said:


> Unless your in to competitive riding why bother comparing yourself to anyone else(complete strangers)?, Why worry about increasing your average?
> Just keep enjoying the bike and putting the miles in


Pretty sure I have seen some erm how can I put this competitive Cams Vids of you racing against complete strangers


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## GrasB (11 Aug 2013)

I think you're just about to find out the difference between riding & training. Depending on the default effort level & natural talent you put in riding most people find that on open roads they'll start to stagnate between 15 & 18mph on a flat route just riding around. At this point you're looking at a 15-20% increase in power level to gain 1mph gain. Unless you've been training properly that 15-20% is a jump from fairly easy to absolutely knackering. If you're commuting during the week to the point you're feeling hot & sweaty when you get to work/home then your longer weekend rides will be when you're fatigued & so will be slower.


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## musa (11 Aug 2013)

Up the mileage and push harder. Simples


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## Andrew_Culture (11 Aug 2013)

Banjo said:


> You say much of your ride is on country lanes. I allways find country lanes (even well surfaced ones) much slower than A roads.Stopping and starting at junctions really kills your speed.
> 
> You are almost exactly the same weight and height as me. I think we would be racing snakes if we dumped the extra stone.I cant get motivated enough at the moment to lose it .



I figured out I could shift the last bit of chunk by quitting beer.


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## Andrew_Culture (11 Aug 2013)

Nah


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## lukesdad (11 Aug 2013)

Andrew_Culture said:


> I figured out I could shift the last bit of chunk by quitting beer.


 What would I use for fuel ?


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## Boon 51 (11 Aug 2013)

Andrew_Culture said:


> My average is always the same and appears unaffected by which bike I'm on, how awake or fit I feel or how badly I need a poo.


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## Boon 51 (11 Aug 2013)

vickster could have a point, have you tried some decent tyres as an upgrade that always helps me?


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## Alien8 (11 Aug 2013)

If you've established a base level of fitness, and you want to increase your speed, you need to add more intensity.

No pain, no gain, and all that.


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## Milzy (11 Aug 2013)

You need Michelin pro service course tires & diet plan, you'll easily average over 16mph. As said it depends on the geography too.


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## BSRU (11 Aug 2013)

Andrew_P said:


> Pretty sure I have seen some erm how can I put this competitive Cams Vids of you racing against complete strangers


Yes but SCR is a different kettle of fish.
Although there was no real racing just me easily overtaking slower cyclists


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## videoman (11 Aug 2013)

Only time I achieve 16mph is going downhill with a tailwind, usually only manage around 10 mph but being old and unfit I have a good excuse!


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## smutchin (11 Aug 2013)

Banjo said:


> You are almost exactly the same weight and height as me. I think we would be racing snakes if we dumped the extra stone.I cant get motivated enough at the moment to lose it .



I'm the same height but under 11 stone but I would consider 16mph a decent average speed on my commute. 

If you want to get faster, you need to put more effort in. There are no shortcuts. If you can't get motivated to put the required level of effort in, that means you don't want it badly enough. That's not a criticism - just the opposite, in fact: it means you have your priorities right.


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## jim55 (11 Aug 2013)

Milzy said:


> You need Michelin pro service course tires & diet plan, you'll easily average over 16mph.


du think tyres are as big a difference as makers say?
(serious question btw)


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## vickster (11 Aug 2013)

Depends what you are using. I think my michelins are smoother rolling that the stock giants


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## ayceejay (11 Aug 2013)

I agree with most here that 16mph is a good average speed over 10 miles, some might even call that a sprint. To take a different perspective: if you want to travel over a particular course faster than previously you need to see where the highs and lows are because your average will have some stretches faster and some slower, right, unless this route is flat and straight and windless? Once you have analyzed your route you can decide which areas to work on: do you try to improve on the slow bits or maximize on the easy bits obviously you can't do much about traffic lights and stop signs but they should fit into your analysis. Is your average the same in both directions, if so why?


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## cyberknight (12 Aug 2013)

Do not worry about it too much, my average for a 10 mile commute can vary by as much as 4 mph average dependant on traffic ,weather,tiredness etc!


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## G3CWI (12 Aug 2013)

Measure your speed in km per hour. Everything seems better. I find country lanes rather poor for getting good averages. My fastest times are always on A roads.


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## SpokeyDokey (12 Aug 2013)

jim55 said:


> du think tyres are as big a difference as makers say?
> (serious question btw)


 

Well, there's a huge difference between say some 2.5" knobblies and a 23mm Conti Latest Must Have but once you are in the realm of slicks/semi-slicks vs different slicks/semi-slicks on a 'racing' bike you are entering the world of small margins.

I have no doubt that some people are so fit and so well tuned that these small differences make a real difference to their performance but it'll still be in the margins which I do accept may well be crucial to them.

There's many a post re tyres and wheels (esp' wheels) making a world of difference. Generally anecdotal with no/little real evidence of performance gains - same with manufacturers blurb.

Maybe if some real like for like data was published It would help make a properly informed decision. For instance if tyre X shaved 30 seconds off of a 30 miler vs tyre Y under exactly the same conditions you might think that is an absolutely wonderful eureka moment in your life or you might regard it in much the same way as a gnat hitting your windscreen on a motorway.

For someone averaging 16mph as per the OP (a tad more than me btw) I can't imagine specific tyre choice from a world of oh so very similar tyres making a significant difference tbh.


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## Mo1959 (12 Aug 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> For someone averaging 16mph as per the OP (a tad more than me btw) I can't imagine specific tyre choice from a world of oh so very similar tyres making a significant difference tbh.


I am slightly tempted just to experiment at some point. Have been running the Schwalbe Durano Plus with the wire beads for the last 6 months. If I remember correctly I think they weigh around or just over 400gms which is double the weight of a lot of the racier tyres. If I have any spare cash at some point..........doesn't often happen  I wouldn't mind trying a lighter tyre to see what difference in speed and how the bike handles.

The Durano Plus have been amazing having covered well over 4000 incident free miles now and it is maybe silly giving that up for maybe a 1mph increase if even that.


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## Andrew_P (12 Aug 2013)

The other factor could be is your cycle computer set correctly, what tyres are you running and what wheel size have you input? I changed wheels to a Mavic that came with a racier tyre than my normal 4 Season Conti and my speed went up a little bit which I was chuffed with, except my commute distance went from 14.80ish to 14.95ish... Racier tyre = small rolling = incorrect speed and distance.

I went 5 months when I started out using my Garmin 705 letting it autoset the wheel size my commute got shorter and shorter went down as low as 14.5, so I just set a 700c 23mm Gator @ 2096


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## IanG1 (12 Aug 2013)

I got all hung up on average speeds and figures etc when one day I was out for a ride and pedaling down a quiet single track road, spot a guy up ahead making good pace on what turned out to be a slick clad MTB. Anyway slowly pulled him in and as I was passing gave him a nod and a "morning" at that precise moment a chap came steaming past me clad in garmin sharp kit like I was standing still. I went around the next bend and he had pulled 50 meters in a few minutes and was soon out of site despite my 20mph best efforts. I then realised I am 45 years old, only been road cycling since April and what does it matter. I am never going to race and cycle for fun and to keep reasonably fit. My average started around 13mph, soon ramped to 16mph and has stuck there and I tell you what as long as I am enjoying it and it gets me out the house and out in the fresh air for a few hours then who cares.


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## SpokeyDokey (12 Aug 2013)

Mo1959 said:


> I am slightly tempted just to experiment at some point. Have been running the Schwalbe Durano Plus with the wire beads for the last 6 months. If I remember correctly I think they weigh around or just over 400gms which is double the weight of a lot of the racier tyres. If I have any spare cash at some point..........doesn't often happen  I wouldn't mind trying a lighter tyre to see what difference in speed and how the bike handles.
> 
> The Durano Plus have been amazing having covered well over 4000 incident free miles now and it is maybe silly giving that up for maybe a 1mph increase if even that.


 

I like puncture protection too Mo - I have Marathon Supreme 32mm and so far not a single puncture.

If you ever perform a test let us know the results!


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## Nomadski (12 Aug 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> Well, there's a hug difference between say some 2.5" knobblies and a 23mm Conti Latest Must Have but once you are in the realm of slicks/semi-slicks vs different slicks/semi-slicks on a 'racing' bike you are entering the world of small margins.
> 
> I have no doubt that some people are so fit and so well tuned that these small differences make a real difference to their performance but it'll still be in the margins which I do accept may well be crucial to them.
> 
> ...


 
I bought some Michelin Pro 4 Service Course tyres and I havent noticed any difference at all between the stock Schwalbes on my Cannondale and these. So your probably right, at a certain level they will make a difference, but for the mere mortal cyclists its a placebo.

Mind they do look nicer!


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## Hacienda71 (12 Aug 2013)

The main way to get faster if you plateau is to ride more miles and train specifically to improve your sustainable power. This should also help with reducing weight which helps in all areas of cycling although hills in particular. Others with more knowledge than me on the subject of training will eloborate I am sure, but a couple of things that will help are intervals to improve your speed and threshold rides to get your body used to riding at higher speeds for sustained periods.
Getting into a better aero position on the bike will help noticeably as well, basically ride on the drops or get low on the hoods. If you ride on the hoods in an upright position improving your aero shape should give you a mile an hour or so on your average, and the faster you go the more important it becomes. Think of your torso as a massive windbreak. 
The bike will help but not a huge amount. If you are already riding 23 tyres, the bike isn't very heavy and your gearing is not holding you back then changing tyres won't make a massive difference. Even the merits of aero wheels are limited at sub 20 mph speeds.
Ultimately fitness is the key.


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## Easytigers (13 Aug 2013)

Well I did it...(albeit on my commute home...which has more downhill sections!). I set off and didn't allow myself the first trundling mile to 'warm up' then focused on keeping the pedals turning and not 'coasting' on the flat and slight downhill sections. Pushed all the way home and averaged 18.2mph. 
Chuffed = slightly (would be happier if I'd managed it on the ride into work!)
Enjoyed the ride = not in the slightest...was mostly head down thinking about what my body was telling me...then ignoring it!
Think I'll take sage advice from IanG1...ride to enjoy...at least for the rest of this week

Next week 18.3 here I come


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## hopless500 (13 Aug 2013)

numbnuts said:


> "16mph average" .... only in my dreams


 
Mine too. I only just manage a tad under 12.....on a good day.


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## User19783 (7 Sep 2013)

Hi Easytiger,
Is there any chance for a update on your average speed, as it's been a while.
I've enjoy this thread, some good points we're made, 
Was any of them helpfully?


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## gbb (7 Sep 2013)

When I was fit and going for it maybe ten years ago...I averaged 16 over 20, 30 50 miles, the distance didnt matter, on rolling terrain at about 45 years old.
I'd worked hard to increase the average and thought perhaps a change in tactics would help.
Bearing in mind the hills here are rolling and not very long or steep, I honked up them, out the saddle, working hard then easing off once id topped them, maintaining a steady but easier pace for maybe a mile, being careful not to lose too much speed.
The idea is not to spend too long going slow up hills..
Also, dont set off too hard. I used to ride the first 5 miles steady. Dont ease back too much but you gain later on in the ride.
Another thing...if my average was 16, I'd set out into the wind and ride as close to 16 average as I could for as long as I could, then inevitably ride the tailwind faster and increase the average overall.
Over that spring and summer (yes, it took that long even with good regular rides) I increaaed my average up to 18 over 50 mile rides.
Truth is, I loved getting there, but didnt like the thought of never ending hard hard work...and slipped bqck to 16 average the next spring.


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## gbb (7 Sep 2013)

And the truth is easytigers, 16 average is very respectable. At that average , not too many riders overtook me, rather it was the other way round.


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## Cuchilo (7 Sep 2013)

I used to get hung up on the times but a few minor injuries have put me on a go slow . Walking into my workshop vice while carrying a cabinet has given me a dead leg for the last two days is the latest 
I still get the Strava devil on my shoulder when I know there is a TT but soon notice im not making a good time so slow up and kick myself for bothering .
Ive started taking the longer way around rather than my long way around  when I have the time to build myself up . As soon as I stop walking into things I will be really fast on my bike


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## rovers1875 (8 Sep 2013)

You need to plan your route better (just go downhill, never go up hill) your average will improve dramatically.


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## HLaB (8 Sep 2013)

rovers1875 said:


> You need to plan your route better (just go downhill, never go up hill) your average will improve dramatically.


Thats a beer advert IIRC


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## Milzy (8 Sep 2013)

Loose weight improve your diet & do some hill repeats. Or just be happy as you are.


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## DooDah (8 Sep 2013)

gbb said:


> And the truth is easytigers, 16 average is very respectable. At that average , not too many riders overtook me, rather it was the other way round.


I agree totally. I am 41 and have been cycling (once a week, it is all I can fit in) for 18 months. My average speed has plateaued at 22-23kmh, but this does vary depending on the route I take, distance cycled (it is very hilly in my area). A couple of rides have been up to 26kmh but that is it. I do still push myself sometimes, but that is normally to get up that hill a bit quicker etc. I have learnt to just enjoy the rides and I guess the fitness and speed will come more easily. 16mph is a very good average speed


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## bozmandb9 (8 Sep 2013)

I think really the only relevance of average speed is to compare how you did last time on the same route.

Even then it can be irrelevant if conditions are very different. I managed to get my average up to 18.7 mph on my circuit today, but Friday struggled to do 18.1, not sure if it was down to conditions or tiredness. But it's not very hilly, and I'm on a carbon road bike.

The main thing for me is to see that average climbing, when I first started riding it was more like 16.5.


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## Easytigers (9 Sep 2013)

Thank you for all of the wise (and wise cracking) advice!!! It's been great hearing about other people's experiences (painful and not). I guess I've looked at what I really want to get out of it and come the following conclusions:
1. I can average above 16mph but I have to really think about it and I don't really enjoy the experience as I can't just relax, which is the main reason for cycling
2. At my age (although I'm not past it yet!), I'm never going to race...and don't really ever want to so I'm not sure why I got so hung-up about it
3. I'm still getting some PBs on Strava, so I must be improving (slightly), the month I don't get any...I might do something about it!!!


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## gbb (10 Sep 2013)

bozmandb9 said:


> I think really the only relevance of average speed is to compare how you did last time on the same route.
> 
> Even then it can be irrelevant if conditions are very different. I managed to get my average up to 18.7 mph on my circuit today, but Friday struggled to do 18.1, not sure if it was down to conditions or tiredness. But it's not very hilly, and I'm on a carbon road bike.
> 
> The main thing for me is to see that average climbing, when I first started riding it was more like 16.5.


 
But even then, things average out pretty much anyway (in my case anyway)
I have four directions I can go out in. 
South, pretty flat, a little lumpy, pretty well sheltered.
East, flat as a pancake, into the fens, very little cover, almost always windy.
North, pretty much the same conditions as going south.
West, really quite hilly in places (for round here).
Hilly or flat, my times don't change very much over say 40 miles...a few minutes.

Weather...wind particually of course, doesn't make any difference on a round trip. 
Windy and slow on the outrun, get a real nice tailwind back...and travel faster than normal of course.
No wind, pretty much the same speed there and back.
Windy or not, my times don't change very much over say 40 miles...a few minutes.

I used to be quite obsessed about my times...my average didn't change by very much on the open road, windy or not, hilly or not.

I suspect your observation re tiredness is probably very right...get on a bike and ride hard, it soon finds any weakness you may be carrying such as tiredness, a virus etc etc. I always knew....better still were those days when you were just zinging...flying along feeling like nothing could stop you. Shame it only happens once in a while


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## SpokeyDokey (10 Sep 2013)

gbb said:


> ....better still were those days when you were just zinging...flying along feeling like nothing could stop you. Shame it only happens once in a while



Yes, does not happen often at all for me - only once this year on a 27-miler.

At about 15/16 miles my little legs gained a life of their own and just started quietly whirring away of their own accord: it was like nothing could stop them and in truth it was a shame to finish the ride.

Is there a physiological explanation to this anybody?


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## Easytigers (10 Sep 2013)

gbb said:


> But even then, things average out pretty much anyway (in my case anyway)
> I have four directions I can go out in.
> South, pretty flat, a little lumpy, pretty well sheltered.
> East, flat as a pancake, into the fens, very little cover, almost always windy.
> ...


Funny what you said about those days when you're zinging...I was talking to a guy at work who used to race. He always says he can tell when he's about to come down with the lurgy as his performance improves...he says that it's his body getting ready to fight the infection and so is on overdrive! Anyone got any thoughts on this? Old wives tale?..although...someone once told me that if you hang a piece of bacon close to your arse, if you have a tape work it will come out and you can then pull it out! Spent many an hour checking that one...never caught anything though...and it did remind me of crabbing on my summer holiday (oh..that sounds even worse!!!!)


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## DooDah (10 Sep 2013)

Easytigers said:


> Funny what you said about those days when you're zinging...I was talking to a guy at work who used to race. He always says he can tell when he's about to come down with the lurgy as his performance improves...he says that it's his body getting ready to fight the infection and so is on overdrive! Anyone got any thoughts on this? Old wives tale?..although...someone once told me that if you hang a piece of bacon close to your arse, if you have a tape work it will come out and you can then pull it out! Spent many an hour checking that one...never caught anything though...and it did remind me of crabbing on my summer holiday (oh..that sounds even worse!!!!)


...............


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## Mo1959 (10 Sep 2013)

Easytigers said:


> Funny what you said about those days when you're zinging...I was talking to a guy at work who used to race. He always says he can tell when he's about to come down with the lurgy as his performance improves...he says that it's his body getting ready to fight the infection and so is on overdrive! Anyone got any thoughts on this? Old wives tale?..although...someone once told me that if you hang a piece of bacon close to your arse, if you have a tape work it will come out and you can then pull it out! Spent many an hour checking that one...never caught anything though...and it did remind me of crabbing on my summer holiday (oh..that sounds even worse!!!!)


That sounds like something my Dad used to kid me about when I was young. He said that if men suffered from baldness, they should rub salt on their heads. The hair got thirsty and came out for a drink and you had to tie a knot in it to stop it from going back in.


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## Louch (10 Sep 2013)

I averaged 18.5 MPH over 13 miles tonight so guess im waking up feeling crap tomorrow by that rule!


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## Louch (11 Sep 2013)

I was right, stomachs in knots today :s


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