# Hardtail ...



## BretonM (18 May 2017)

Hello Everyone,
Lately on the trails I've been having this feeling. The feeling that a good hardtail would feel so much nicer and improve my riding so much more than just relying on my Suspension to do all the work. 
After careful consideration, I've come to the conclusion that a hardtail will be perfect for me and the riding I do !!!
I'm looking for : 
• A hardtail made from preferably steel but will consider aluminium also. 
• I love aggressive downhills and need a fork capable of taking big impacts ... so preferably a fork with between 140 and 160 mm of travel. 
• 1x10 / 1x11 Gearing (SRAM or SHIMANO)
• A Dropper seatpost ( Not essential )
• 27.5 or 29" Wheels 
• Good brakes 

And here's the catch ... I'm a man on a budget here. 

My budget for the bike will be £2000. 

Any suggestions, advice or just general conversation is greatly appreciated. 

Thanks, you guys always help and I'm sure you will again !!!


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## Yellow Saddle (18 May 2017)

Your feeling is wrong. Or, you've attributed the right feeling to the wrong premise.


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## BretonM (18 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Your feeling is wrong. Or, you've attributed the right feeling to the wrong premise.


Okay, and you say this why ? 
Completely open to opinions


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## Drago (18 May 2017)

Buy a nice frame and build, build, build your perfect steed.


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## Yellow Saddle (18 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> Okay, and you say this why ?
> Completely open to opinions



Aggressive downhill and hardtail used in same sentence. It is dumb.
Big impacts in front, you need 160mm you say but those same impacts go through the back, which is a hard tail.

What are you trying to achieve and what did this epiphany of yours reveal other than a feeling?


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## Kajjal (18 May 2017)

Hardtails are not the best for really aggressive downhills you will just take a beating. Fast smoother downhills and they fly.

I have an xc hardtail and ride it mainly on natural trails which it is great for. Also red runs in trail parks but anything above that it is not so good and full suspension is really the way forward. I started mountain biking in the very early 1990's when there was no suspension or disc brakes, over anything rough you took a pounding.


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## BretonM (18 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Aggressive downhill and hardtail used in same sentence. It is dumb.
> Big impacts in front, you need 160mm you say but those same impacts go through the back, which is a hard tail.
> 
> What are you trying to achieve and what did this epiphany of yours reveal other than a feeling?


Perhaps my use of the word 'downhills' wasn't right. I meant descents .... as in fast rooty, rocky descents. With mostly fast smooth descents and trails with some jumps. Sorry for the confusion. 
I do mainly XC and trails with some more technical descents and I feel like I'm not truly progressing my skills with a full suspension ? 



Kajjal said:


> Hardtails are not the best for really aggressive downhills you will just take a beating. Fast smoother downhills and they fly.
> 
> I have an xc hardtail and ride it mainly on natural trails which it is great for. Also red runs in trail parks but anything above that it is not so good and full suspension is really the way forward. I started mountain biking in the very early 1990's when there was no suspension or disc brakes, over anything rough you took a pounding.[


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## BretonM (18 May 2017)

Drago said:


> Buy a nice frame and build, build, build your perfect steed.


I've always wanted to build my own bike ! 
Is it a big undertaking ? 
Thanks


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## BretonM (18 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Aggressive downhill and hardtail used in same sentence. It is dumb.
> Big impacts in front, you need 160mm you say but those same impacts go through the back, which is a hard tail.
> 
> What are you trying to achieve and what did this epiphany of yours reveal other than a feeling?


I feel as if I am relying more on my rear shock than actually skill !!!


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## derrick (18 May 2017)

I prefer a hardtail, but then i don't do anything extreme,


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## BretonM (18 May 2017)

derrick said:


> I prefer a hardtail, but then i don't do anything extreme,


What sort of riding do you do ? 
And also does a hardtail mean much less fettling and maintenance ? 
Thanks.


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## derrick (18 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> What sort of riding do you do ?
> And also does a hardtail mean much less fettling and maintenance ?
> Thanks.


Just a few trails,I like a bit of fettling, A hardtail is just nicer to ride, But then i have never ridden a high end full susser.
I mostly ride road bikes, But used to ride in Epping forest on a full suspension bike,But give me a hardtail anyday.


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## I like Skol (18 May 2017)

Trust me, hardtail FTW! I ride a 23yr old hardtail and it is a long time since I have been out ridden on the trail unless I was hanging back for my kids. Having said that, goodness knows what I would do on a full suss?


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

derrick said:


> Just a few trails,I like a bit of fettling, A hardtail is just nicer to ride, But then i have never ridden a high end full susser.
> I mostly ride road bikes, But used to ride in Epping forest on a full suspension bike,But give me a hardtail anyday.


Yeah, does having a hardtail ever hinder you ?


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## derrick (19 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> Yeah, does having a hardtail ever hinder you ?


How can it hinder me?


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## Yellow Saddle (19 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> Perhaps my use of the word 'downhills' wasn't right. I meant descents .... as in fast rooty, rocky descents. With mostly fast smooth descents and trails with some jumps. Sorry for the confusion.
> I do mainly XC and trails with some more technical descents and I feel like I'm not truly progressing my skills with a full suspension ?



You haven't cleared the confusion. You seem to think there's a difference in riding downhill and descending. It is the same and requires the same from a bicycle and the rider. The only extra skill you'll need when descending with a hardtail is how to brake harder so that you don't go as fast. There is no benefit to a hardtail in offroad riding. It can be done, but slower, less safe and less pleasurable. 

It is a hipster thing. Stop reading those magazines and go for a ride on your current bike.


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## FishFright (19 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> You haven't cleared the confusion. You seem to think there's a difference in riding downhill and descending. It is the same and requires the same from a bicycle and the rider. The only extra skill you'll need when descending with a hardtail is how to brake harder so that you don't go as fast. There is no benefit to a hardtail in offroad riding. It can be done, but slower, less safe and less pleasurable.
> 
> It is a hipster thing. Stop reading those magazines and go for a ride on your current bike.




You're not often wrong YS but in this case I think you are. There is loads of fun to be gained riding a hardtail on some trails, It takes more attention and builds your skill set. Also a trail thats boring on a full bouncer is often a lark on a hard tail. The long and slack hardtail thing good fun but won't win you any races of course..

OP 120 - 140mm forks is a sweet spot for these long and slack frames so buy or build yourself one but keep the full bouncer for trial centres and more gnarly (dude) trails.
http://singletrackworld.com forum is a better place to ask about this kind of thing.


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## fossyant (19 May 2017)

What's your current bike ?


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## Yellow Saddle (19 May 2017)

FishFright said:


> You're not often wrong YS but in this case I think you are. There is loads of fun to be gained riding a hardtail on some trails, It takes more attention and builds your skill set. Also a trail thats boring on a full bouncer is often a lark on a hard tail. The long and slack hardtail thing good fun but won't win you any races of course..
> 
> OP 120 - 140mm forks is a sweet spot for these long and slack frames so buy or build yourself one but keep the full bouncer for trial centres and more gnarly (dude) trails.
> http://singletrackworld.com forum is a better place to ask about this kind of thing.



Of course there's lots of fun to be had from a hardtail. I have been riding one for 28 years and raced plenty on it, from short marathons to 9-day stage races. However, the OP wants to swap from a full susser to a hardtail to ride trails that require big impacts and fast descents. So big that he requires 160mm of fork travel and a dropper post. That's just silly. There's no additional skills t be had from doing that other than what I stated. Horses for courses, but that's the wrong horse for the course.
I just don't get it.


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## Flyboy (19 May 2017)

Orange Crush it has to be


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> You haven't cleared the confusion. You seem to think there's a difference in riding downhill and descending. It is the same and requires the same from a bicycle and the rider. The only extra skill you'll need when descending with a hardtail is how to brake harder so that you don't go as fast. There is no benefit to a hardtail in offroad riding. It can be done, but slower, less safe and less pleasurable.
> 
> It is a hipster thing. Stop reading those magazines and go for a ride on your current bike.


That's the whole point of my post ... i am not enjoying my rides on my full suspension as much as i did on my previous hardtails. I didn't come here to have my grammatical flaws pointed out or told that my opinion is wrong. I came here for good advice about hardtails and suggestions of good ones


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

fossyant said:


> What's your current bike ?


Highly upgraded GIANT NRS from about 2005.


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## Crackle (19 May 2017)

Long travel hard tails are all the rage. Check out Whyte, Orange, Cotic, Ragley, On One, Ghost, Bird etc... 2K will pretty much get you any of them. Quite a few have bought Bird's and have been very pleased with them.

https://www.bird.bike/


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

Flyboy said:


> Orange Crush it has to be


Is the crush an aluminium frame ?


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

Crackle said:


> Long travel hard tails are all the rage. Check out Whyte, Orange, Cotic, Ragley, On One, Ghost, Bird etc... 2K will pretty much get you any of them. Quite a few have bought Bird's and have been very pleased with them.
> 
> https://www.bird.bike/


I am surprised you can get a hardtail with SRAM Eagle for little over 2000 !!!


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## Crackle (19 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> I am surprised you can get a hardtail with SRAM Eagle for little over 2000 !!!


Well I did say 'pretty much', that might be the exception.


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## Kajjal (19 May 2017)

To give a comparison my xc hard tail has 100mm air forks and will handle anything I choose to ride such as forestry single track, fireroads, by ways, birdleways, canal towpaths etc. It climbs and descends very well. I am on strava the second fastest on a local off road downhill where I hit about 40mph, this did take a bit of practice to get the hang of. The bike goes over rocky trails fine until they turn into an endless rock garden and then it is no fun.

My Gravel bike is even faster off road on smoother less technical trails as it weighs less and accelerates a lot faster. But again once things get rough you take a real beating and this is when the xc mountain bike flies. on the upside the gravel bike is much faster on the road in between the off road sections.

For jumps taking off and landing a hardtail properly is a lot harder and even when you get it right you still feel it more than a FS bike. I once took a previous xc hardtail down a downhill course and it was really hard work, luckily there were no huge jumps or I would probably not be here now


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## Jason945 (19 May 2017)

I had a Cotic Solaris with Pikes up front and loved it, circumstances forced me to sell it but I would recommend Cotic, Stanton, Bird etc, even Sanderson now have a 29er and there is a lovely Curtis currently for sale on ST, Curtis, more XC than aggressive though.
If your not overly tall Pipedream are doing these cheap and you could have an almost dream build for £2k.


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

Kajjal said:


> To give a comparison my xc hard tail has 100mm air forks and will handle anything I choose to ride such as forestry single track, fireroads, by ways, birdleways, canal towpaths etc. It climbs and descends very well. I am on strava the second fastest on a local off road downhill where I hit about 40mph, this did take a bit of practice to get the hang of. The bike goes over rocky trails fine until they turn into an endless rock garden and then it is no fun.
> 
> My Gravel bike is even faster off road on smoother less technical trails as it weighs less and accelerates a lot faster. But again once things get rough you take a real beating and this is when the xc mountain bike flies. on the upside the gravel bike is much faster on the road in between the off road sections.
> 
> For jumps taking off and landing a hardtail properly is a lot harder and even when you get it right you still feel it more than a FS bike. I once took a previous xc hardtail down a downhill course and it was really hard work, luckily there were no huge jumps or I would probably not be here now


Well if that's the case then I think a hardtail is for me no matter what others say. 
You get a lot more bang for your buck with hardtails and it's seems to me that if a bike with 100mm of travel can just about handle anything you throw at it, then a bike with a 140 + should be more than enough. 
Of course your skill as a rider is much more important than your bike and it sounds to me that you have plenty of skill. 

I mainly ride trails in the local area and at hamsterly Forrest. 

Thanks for the advice man !!!


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## User32269 (19 May 2017)

Rigid 80s & 90s steel is where it's at man.


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

odav said:


> Rigid 80s & 90s steel is where it's at man.


I think that might be a little to hardcore for me  is that what you ride ?!


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## User32269 (19 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> I think that might be a little to hardcore for me  is that what you ride ?!


Yeah, but to be fair all my fillings have gone and my knees and wrists don't really work anymore! I've never ridden anything with suspension on, but don't go down anything approaching extreme these days.


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## BretonM (19 May 2017)

odav said:


> Yeah, but to be fair all my fillings have gone and my knees and wrists don't really work anymore! I've never ridden anything with suspension on, but don't go down anything approaching extreme these days.


Ah I'm not surprised


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## Nigeyy (21 May 2017)

Well... I have a HT and FS. I ride xc, with not a lot of high technical difficulty. Can't recommend a bike as I have a feeling anything over here might not be available over there, and I really don't know the UK market. But while I can't offer advice, hey, this is a forum and I can offer an opinion!

From what little I know, it would seem from your description an FS is the bike for you (btw, I think you'll find recent FS bikes to be vastly different from 2005 designs and personally I'd recommend you give a modern FS a go to see what is different).... but: I totally see it, and I'd venture you are more likely to get a better HT for the price than an FS. There are times when I take my HT over the FS and vice versa, though again, no big jumps or highly technical sections for me. Then again, there are definitely times I take my FS over my HT. I have to say, it's nice having the choice, though I'll be the first to admit if I have a lot of rocks and roots, it's FS all the way and my first choice.

Got to also add: as you get older and those joints start to ache,_ it is_ nicer on an FS. Good luck with whatever you decide on, and what ever you get, if it makes you want to or ride more, then it's worth it!


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## marzjennings (21 May 2017)

BretonM said:


> Highly upgraded GIANT NRS from about 2005.


No wonder you're not enjoying aggressive down hills on your full susser, a GIANT NRS is hardly the right bike for the job. A steep angled short travel XC bike is going to feel twitchy as heck down a rooty/rocky trail. You probably feel perched too high in the saddle and with too much weight over the bars. 

Yea a slack angled 160mm hardtail will feel better than your NRS, but a modern full susser will be even better. Get yourself something like a Specialized Camber 29er and go have fun.


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## BretonM (22 May 2017)

marzjennings said:


> No wonder you're not enjoying aggressive down hills on your full susser, a GIANT NRS is hardly the right bike for the job. A steep angled short travel XC bike is going to feel twitchy as heck down a rooty/rocky trail. You probably feel perched too high in the saddle and with too much weight over the bars.
> 
> Yea a slack angled 160mm hardtail will feel better than your NRS, but a modern full susser will be even better. Get yourself something like a Specialized Camber 29er and go have fun.


Thanks for the advice man !!!!


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## Ciar (26 May 2017)

I switched from an XC HT to the bike in my picture, it's a trail bike running 120 up front and it's lovely, can handle all that i ride and a bit more, the best part is it has a setting on the suspension to allow you to ride trail or fully open or locked to a point, so you can adjust for the terrain at the time.


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## Douggie954 (30 May 2017)

I have just bought one of these. 

www.trekbikes.com/gb/en_GB/bikes/mountain-bikes/cross-country-mountain-bikes/procaliber/procaliber-9-7-2x/p/2077690-2017/

I know it is a carbon frame and not steel but it an absolutely cracking bike and great to ride..


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## Alan Frame (31 May 2017)

If I had a bike that I'd paid £2,200 for, I'm sure I'd be very pleased too. Enjoy.

But never use the words "carbon" and "cracking" in the same sentence.


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## ColinJ (31 May 2017)

Alan Frame said:


> But never use the words "carbon" and "cracking" in the same sentence.


Indeed - the member formerly known as bromptonfb woke up in hospital after the front end of his carbon fibre mountain bike decided to part company with the rest of the bike!


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## Diggs (1 Jun 2017)

odav said:


> Rigid 80s & 90s steel is where it's at man.


or Rigid steel '16


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## gelfy666 (3 Jun 2017)

Love my Bird AM GX..... Great bike


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## Motozulu (8 Jun 2017)

gelfy666 said:


> Love my Bird AM GX..... Great bike



This is the correct answer. I owned a Bird until I went full fat. A fantastic HT - I'd own one tomorrow, if I could. Much more capable bike on the downs that I could ever push it too.


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