# More electrical shenanigans - any thoughts?



## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

I'm wondering if I can pick the brains of the CC DIY-savvy collective, as I'm a touch out of my depth when it comes to electrics, and the friend who normally helps me out with things is currently shielding again due to Omicron.

Anyways, the last few days, the lights in the house have been running on the dim side. The best way to explain it is that I've taken all the bulbs out and replaced them with ones of a lower wattage. This applies to ceiling lights as well as lights that are plugged in via sockets. And the kitchen strip light is taking an age to start.

I've three circuits for lights and a separate one for sockets, so whatever it is, it's affecting everything, not just a single circuit.

A light bulb failed in the sitting room on Thursday, but I believe this to be coincidental.

I live out in the boonies, and some days the electric isn't great - usually at times of peak demand. But it's never gone on for this long. I've chatted with my above mentioned friend via messenger, and he suggests either an issue with the fuse box itself or an external supply issue.

The fuse box in the house is one of the old style ones, btw. There's one small box where the supply cable comes into the house with an on-off switch, and then a cable goes from there into two separate boxes, each also with an on-off switch. One, I'm not sure what it does as I've never opened it, the other has the fuses for the three light circuits, the cooker, the sockets and one other thing I can't remember.

I'm also convinced the lights in the garage and utility room aren't running at full capacity either - and they have their own separate supply and fuse box. The latter is one of the newer types. Or maybe I'm just really being paranoid and seeing things...

Anyways, what do you folks think? What should be my next port of call - UK Power Networks, the bods I pay the bills to (Eon) or an electrician?


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## Cycleops (1 Jan 2022)

Sounds like low voltage coming into the house. Get it down here quite a lot but I'm surprised you're having problems there. I should call your supplier first and see what they have to say. What about other appliances?


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Sounds like low voltage coming into the house. Get it down here quite a lot but I'm surprised you're having problems there. I should call your supplier first and see what they have to say. What about other appliances?



I haven't used any appliances as I don't need to cook right now LOL... The fridge is full of snacky things. So I can't say's I've noticed anything with that. Laptops are running fine when plugged in though.

Just been on the supplier's website, and their customer service dept is shut until Tuesday (4th), what with all the bank holidays.


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## I like Skol (1 Jan 2022)

Do you have a multimeter that can measure 240V AC? My first thing would be to check the voltage somewhere around the house as it does sound like it is an incoming supply issue and your property is not getting the 230/240V it is supposed to.


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## DCLane (1 Jan 2022)

Daft thought; if you're out in the back end of beyond could it be one of your neighbours taking up a lot of the supply?

Not that I have a clue about electrics.


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## DaveReading (1 Jan 2022)

Next door growing cannabis in the roof space ...


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

Unfortunately, I don't have a multimeter 

I was wondering about that @DCLane - but beyond basic principles, I'm just as clueless...


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

DaveReading said:


> Next door growing cannabis in the roof space ...



Next door (on the same side of the road) is about half a mile away...


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## midlife (1 Jan 2022)

I can't think of anything inside the house that would make all the lights dim, sounds like a supply issue?


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## BianchiVirgin (1 Jan 2022)

As mentioned above, you've a slightly lower voltage supply to the house than would be normal. It's relatively common in rural areas and especially at times of peak demand on the network, such as at Christmas and New year. I whitish be too concerned but if you know someone with a meter it would be worth checking it. The allowable tolerance is huge (as per Ofreg) so unless it's mentally low there's bugger all you can do about it. I'd say it'll improve early next week as people had back to work etc.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

BianchiVirgin said:


> As mentioned above, you've a slightly lower voltage supply to the house than would be normal. It's relatively common in rural areas and especially at times of peak demand on the network, such as at Christmas and New year. I whitish be too concerned but if you know someone with a meter it would be worth checking it. The allowable tolerance is huge (as per Ofreg) so unless it's mentally low there's bugger all you can do about it. I'd say it'll improve early next week as people had back to work etc.



I've lived here for donkeys, and it's never been this bad, and certainly never for this long. 

It's like the 100 watt equivalent bulb in my sitting room has been replaced by a 60 watt or something, and the yellow colour cast is truly godawful. I normally have a 60 watt in my dining room, which gets good daylight, and that's plenty, but I've had to put a 100 watt in just to see what I'm doing...


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## 13 rider (1 Jan 2022)

Take your sunglasses off 
Sounds like a supply issue rather than anything inside the house


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

13 rider said:


> Take your sunglasses off
> Sounds like a supply issue rather than anything inside the house



So *that's* why I've been tripping over the cats...


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## BianchiVirgin (1 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I've lived here for donkeys, and it's never been this bad, and certainly never for this long.
> 
> It's like the 100 watt equivalent bulb in my sitting room has been replaced by a 60 watt or something, and the yellow colour cast is truly godawful. I normally have a 60 watt in my dining room, which gets good daylight, and that's plenty, but I've had to put a 100 watt in just to see what I'm doing...


The networks are creaking at the seams but there could be other network issues and switching going on so your normal lines could be of of commission and supplied via an alternative route. 
Give it a few days and then report back.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

BianchiVirgin said:


> The networks are creaking at the seams but there could be other network issues and switching going on so your normal lines could be of of commission and supplied via an alternative route.
> Give it a few days and then report back.



Well, I've got to sit tight till Tuesday, as my supplier's customer services dept is shut till then anyways...

I didn't think is was anything in the house - well, I've checked for all the obvious things, but it's always at the back of your mind. And it's stressy, because outside of replacing a fuse, I'm out of my depth with things electrical*

* electrics and plumbing I leave to the experts. My late father's attempts at DIY have taught me to know when to say "I don't know"


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## figbat (1 Jan 2022)

Might be worth reporting to your supplier anyway, at least it logs the issue in case of future changes, or might alert them to a potential failure.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

figbat said:


> Might be worth reporting to your supplier anyway, at least it logs the issue in case of future changes, or might alert them to a potential failure.



Good point... I'll see if there's a facility on the E-on website for logging faults.

UK Power Networks are on the Book of Faces, so I can go that way.


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## lazybloke (1 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Good point... I'll see if there's a facility on the E-on website for logging faults.
> 
> UK Power Networks are on the Book of Faces, so I can go that way.


Uk power networks should have a 24 hr phone line.


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## Johnsco (1 Jan 2022)

Maybe it's all the people charging the new electric cars that they got for Christmas.
Seriously though - The most likely cause of low supply is the supplier network - External to your house.
I wouldn't expect New Years Day to be a time of high power demand.
The industrial and commercial level of demand will be low.
It's affecting all your lighting and power circuits, so it's unlikely to be a problem with your house distribution board.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

Johnsco said:


> Maybe it's all the people charging the new electric cars that they got for Christmas.
> Seriously though - The most likely cause of low supply is the supplier network - External to your house.
> I wouldn't expect New Years Day to be a time of high power demand.
> The industrial and commercial level of demand will be low.
> Can you plug a portable lamp into a socket outlet to see if this is affected in the same way.



Yep, things like my desk lamp and the free-standing lamp in the sitting room are also affected. They're plugged into the sockets, which run on a different circuit to the ceiling lights.

It's been like this since Thursday.


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## aferris2 (1 Jan 2022)

Any neighbours who would be on the same feed? Assume it's overhead cables so follow the wires and ask if they are experiencing the same thing...


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

Yes, overhead cables here. I'm the first house on the road and the electric pole is just the other side of my hedge. As far as I am aware, the line for my house comes down the pole, under the verge, under my path and into the house.

The feed here is complicated, because there are far fewer houses on this side of the road than on the other, so I'm not entirely sure who gets what and from where.


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## Kingfisher101 (1 Jan 2022)

I suggest you get a qualified electrician in to find out what the problem is and then proceed accordingly.People on here cant properly diagnose the problem. You just have to bite the bullet and get someone in.


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## presta (1 Jan 2022)

Having the same fault arise in multiple places simultaneously isn't a plausible scenario, so you're always looking for the parts of the system that are common to all faults. If you're sure it's affecting all circuits then it has to be upstream of the consumer unit(s). It's worth looking around the CU and its connection to the meter for signs/smells of overheating, but failing that, it's most likely to be a fault in the line to the house. Neighbours with the same problem would be a dead giveaway. Don't leave it till Tuesday if you find anything overheating, https://www.eonenergy.com/emergencies.html.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

presta said:


> Having the same fault arise in multiple places simultaneously isn't a plausible scenario, so you're always looking for the parts of the system that are common to all faults. If you're sure it's affecting all circuits then it has to be upstream of the consumer unit(s). It's worth looking around the CU and its connection to the meter for signs/smells of overheating, but failing that, it's most likely to be a fault in the line to the house. Neighbours with the same problem would be a dead giveaway. Don't leave it till Tuesday if you find anything overheating, https://www.eonenergy.com/emergencies.html.



Sorry, what's the CU?


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## fossyant (1 Jan 2022)

Look, you need to pay the cats more in Felix AGAIL to power the treadmill properly !


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## fossyant (1 Jan 2022)

CU = Consumer Unit = fuse box !


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

The fuse box in the house is fine as best I can tell. I had a poke and prod at that yesterday evening, it's not been tripped or anything, and I've checked, cleaned and replaced the breakers. Not that it made any difference.

Can't smell anything funny either. The fuse box is in the broom cupboard next to my habitual armchair in the sitting room, so I'd notice pretty quickly if there was anything awry.

I'm also convinced the lights in the garage / utility room are running dim, and that has a completely separate feed to the house. Each half of that building has its own fuse box, btw.


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## fossyant (1 Jan 2022)

I think it's down to the supply coming in, not the house side.


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## matticus (1 Jan 2022)

Did someone "helpfully" replace all your bulbs with low-energy equivalents?

Cos your symptoms fit with my experience of the bloody things here ...


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

matticus said:


> Did someone "helpfully" replace all your bulbs with low-energy equivalents?
> 
> Cos your symptoms fit with my experience of the bloody things here ...



Bless, but no... I wish...

I'm running mostly LED lights, with the odd incandescent bulb still clinging on in little-used fixtures.

I furkled out some incandescent bulbs from the garage this morning and swapped out the LED lights in the ceiling fixtures for ones of equivalent wattage, but they were actually worse...


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## bikingdad90 (1 Jan 2022)

Go to your meter box where the electric comes in to the property and turn off the switch to cut the electric to your house in full and then wait 5 seconds before turning it back on…. Bound to work…. It’s what IT always suggest first 😂😂😂


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

bikingdad90 said:


> Go to your meter box where the electric comes in to the property and turn off the switch to cut the electric to your house in full and then wait 5 seconds before turning it back on…. Bound to work…. It’s what IT always suggest first 😂😂😂



I have already tried that, you know


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## Arrowfoot (1 Jan 2022)

Don't call any electrician until you call the supplier first and rule out network supply issue. They will fit a device to measure incoming for a few days. Either the distribution has reached capacity with a neighbour having installed a new appliance or a business that has opened up recently. 

Failing that it is likely a corroded wire, likely the neutral in view of age of wiring. If it near the entry, the supplier would spot it as they would need to fit the measuring device. And it is likely to be near the entry as the whole house is affected and you have more than one circuit.


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## slowmotion (1 Jan 2022)

Are the lights dim all the time or do they vary at different times of day?


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

slowmotion said:


> Are the lights dim all the time or do they vary at different times of day?



Dim all the time, no fluctuation that I can discern.

Of course, it's less noticeable in daylight hours, but you can tell by the godawful colour cast.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> Don't call any electrician until you call the supplier first and rule out network supply issue. They will fit a device to measure incoming for a few days. Either the distribution has reached capacity with a neighbour having installed a new appliance or a business that has opened up recently.
> 
> Failing that it is likely a corroded wire, likely the neutral in view of age of wiring. If it near the entry, the supplier would spot it as they would need to fit the measuring device. And it is likely to be near the entry as the whole house is affected and you have more than one circuit.



Thanks for the advice.  

There are a couple of new builds on the other side of the road that have recently been completed, so maybe that could be it - if it's not the cable itself.


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## johnnyb47 (1 Jan 2022)

Hmmm , Maybe a neighbour is growing some exotic plants in there loft for recreational use.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> Hmmm , Maybe a neighbour is growing some exotic plants in there loft for recreational use.



Do keep up!  I'm surprised it took as far as post #6 to be suggested...


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## johnnyb47 (1 Jan 2022)

Doh, it's been a long day :-)))


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> Doh, it's been a long day :-)))



It's ok  Laughter is what keeps the stress at manageable levels.


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## slowmotion (1 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Dim all the time, no fluctuation that I can discern.
> 
> Of course, it's less noticeable in daylight hours, but you can tell by the godawful colour cast.


In that case, it's unlikely to be excessive demand from other buildings. Even dope growers tend not to have their Growlights on 24 hours a day for various reasons. 

It could be a high impedance fault that wouldn't blow a fuse but I don't know enough about the fusing of the electricity distribution network. Maybe a fault at a substation or a pole-mounted transformer. As others have suggested, contact your electricity supplier and tell them that you think there's a problem but it probably isn't in your house.


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

When you gents say supplier, I'm assuming you're all talking about the people who maintain the infrastructure...

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but my brain is goo.


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## Low Gear Guy (1 Jan 2022)

The supplier is the company you pay for electricity. It sounds like the voltage going into the house has dropped due to a nearby user adding a big load or some issue with the distribution system.


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## aferris2 (1 Jan 2022)

Our last house had overhead cables and we kept on getting power drop outs one year. Lights would dim for normally short periods especially if it was windy. Turned out to be loose connections between lengths of cable on the overhead supply.

If some other neighbours are also affected then it's likely to be overhead line or sub-station fault (may not be all neighbours if they are on a different phase). If it's just your house, could be the underground cable from the pole.

Either way, to you it seems like a fault so it's worth reporting. UK power network (Freephone 105) could be a good starting point if you can't contact your supplier before Tuesday.


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## slowmotion (1 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> When you gents say supplier, I'm assuming you're all talking about the people who maintain the infrastructure...
> 
> Sorry if it's a stupid question, but my brain is goo.


I don't know how to contact the people who maintain the transmission and distribution network but ideally, those are the peeps. You could try UK Power Networks but I suspect the only route to them will be via the people you send money to when you get an electricity bill.

You need the Witchita Lineman.......

[media]
]View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxSarBcsKLU[/media]


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## Reynard (1 Jan 2022)

I'll try both then... Doesn't hurt to try. 

UK Power Networks are the folks who maintain the kit out here. If memory serves, there should be a code on the pole to quote when reporting a fault...


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## sleuthey (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm wondering if I can pick the brains of the CC DIY-savvy collective, as I'm a touch out of my depth when it comes to electrics, and the friend who normally helps me out with things is currently shielding again due to Omicron.
> 
> Anyways, the last few days, the lights in the house have been running on the dim side. The best way to explain it is that I've taken all the bulbs out and replaced them with ones of a lower wattage. This applies to ceiling lights as well as lights that are plugged in via sockets. And the kitchen strip light is taking an age to start.
> 
> ...


Iv not read through the 4 pages of replies so this may have been said already. I would guess it’s an issue with the power supply to your house and nothing to do with your fuse box, wiring or lights. Sounds like there could be I2R losses in the power lines due to a peak in demand (everyone on at home boiling kettles and cooking things). This results in a volt drop (more so with old cables and transformers etc). I would contact who ever maintains the electricity supply so for example my provider is British Gas but I would be contacting Western Power Distribution.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> The fuse box in the house is fine as best I can tell. I had a poke and prod at that yesterday evening, it's not been tripped or anything, and I've checked, cleaned and replaced the breakers. Not that it made any difference.
> 
> Can't smell anything funny either. The fuse box is in the broom cupboard next to my habitual armchair in the sitting room, so I'd notice pretty quickly if there was anything awry.
> 
> I'm also convinced the lights in the garage / utility room are running dim, and that has a completely separate feed to the house. Each half of that building has its own fuse box, btw.


That certainly does change things, I was going to suggest isolating each circuit at the fuse board and turn on one by one and see what the lights were like then. However if the two buildings are electrically separate then it is more likely the incoming supply. Network guys need to come look first and if that’s ok ?? I’m afraid you will need a sparky to come look.


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## Lozz360 (2 Jan 2022)

Retired electrical engineer here. As others have said, it all points to a drop in the voltage on the supply to your house. You say there are new builds near you? These new properties will be putting extra demand on your local infrastructure. However, the supplier is obliged to maintain your power supply to a voltage within a determined level.

The company to contact will be your District Network Operator. In your case, this is UK Power Networks. The company you pay your electric bill to are effectively just brokers and won’t be able to help.


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## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'm wondering if I can pick the brains of the CC DIY-savvy collective, as I'm a touch out of my depth when it comes to electrics, and the friend who normally helps me out with things is currently shielding again due to Omicron.
> 
> Anyways, the last few days, the lights in the house have been running on the dim side. The best way to explain it is that I've taken all the bulbs out and replaced them with ones of a lower wattage. This applies to ceiling lights as well as lights that are plugged in via sockets. And the kitchen strip light is taking an age to start.
> 
> ...



Simple check, stick multi meter in one of the sockets to test live and neutral. It should be 230V AC. Then stick the black lead in the earth and see if you have 230V too. finally measure between neutral and earth. There should be virtually zero voltage in AC. An electrician does this with a mega testing meter. But the same principles apply by looking for voltage drop across L-N, L-E and N-E


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## Noodle Legs (2 Jan 2022)

You said that you replaced your bulb with lower wattage ones which may be contributing to the fact that they’re running dim.

As others have said, it could also be a network issue with low volts coming into the property. If that’s the case then I’d check with neighbours to see if they’re having similar issues.

As an employee of one of the distribution network operators (DNOs) who works on the underground cables I can say that the voltage coming in can vary due to other factors such as load on the network or faults on the network where your supply could be fed from an alternative source to keep it on during repairs, though it should always be in the +10%/ -6% of 230v parameters or in layman’s terms 216-253v. You could always call your DNO, explain your situation and ask if there is (or has been) a fault in the area, and they may even send out an engineer to investigate this for you and install a voltage monitor for a short period to check for abnormalities in the supply. Just call 105 and give them your postcode if you’re unsure who your DNO is and they’ll put you through.


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## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> Retired electrical engineer here. As others have said, it all points to a drop in the voltage on the supply to your house. You say there are new builds near you? These new properties will be putting extra demand on your local infrastructure. However, the supplier is obliged to maintain your power supply to a voltage within a determined level.
> 
> The company to contact will be your District Network Operator. In your case, this is UK Power Networks. The company you pay your electric bill to are effectively just brokers and won’t be able to help.



For over a decade when my heat source pump starts up with over 70 Amps surge, my neighbour says his lights dim. In recent years the Electric board have upgraded all the cable in the village. He no longer mentions a voltage dip from his lights.

If his voltage is down and there are poor services to the area this points to the likely issue


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## Noodle Legs (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> For over a decade when my heat source pump starts up with over 70 Amps surge, my neighbour says his lights dim. In recent years the Electric board have upgraded all the cable in the village. He no longer mentions a voltage dip from his lights.
> 
> If his voltage is down and there are poor services to the area this points to the likely issue


Yeah, with the advent of heat pumps and car chargers etc, our DNO is actively upgrading the network in anticipation of this. All new supplies that we do (in new builds at least) are three phase as a minimum now. 

It’ll be quite a lot of work to upgrade it all as some of the areas we cover are run on bits of wet string and often single phase!


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## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Simple check, stick multi meter in one of the sockets to test live and neutral. It should be 230V AC. Then stick the black lead in the earth and see if you have 230V too. finally measure between neutral and earth. There should be virtually zero voltage in AC. An electrician does this with a mega testing meter. But the same principles apply by looking for voltage drop across L-N, L-E and N-E



It would help if this girl actually *had* a multimeter...


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> It would help if this girl actually *had* a multimeter...


Personally I would not stick anything in any socket , plus you will have a hard job as they are blanked off until an earth pin is pushed in. Leave it to the pros! Get the supply checked first and then get the electrician in if required if supply is ok .


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## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> You said that you replaced your bulb with lower wattage ones which may be contributing to the fact that they’re running dim.
> 
> As others have said, it could also be a network issue with low volts coming into the property. If that’s the case then I’d check with neighbours to see if they’re having similar issues.
> 
> As an employee of one of the distribution network operators (DNOs) who works on the underground cables I can say that the voltage coming in can vary due to other factors such as load on the network or faults on the network where your supply could be fed from an alternative source to keep it on during repairs, though it should always be in the +10%/ -6% of 230v parameters or in layman’s terms 216-253v. You could always call your DNO, explain your situation and ask if there is (or has been) a fault in the area, and they may even send out an engineer to investigate this for you and install a voltage monitor for a short period to check for abnormalities in the supply. Just call 105 and give them your postcode if you’re unsure who your DNO is and they’ll put you through.



Actually re the bulbs, I dug out some old incandescent ones I had knocking around yesterday just to see, and they ended up being dimmer than the LEDs.

The voltage can be variable out here in the boonies - you can usually tell by the brownness of the toast. Sometimes it's a little noticeable on the lights, but nothing like this.

The cabling here is overhead. The only underground bit is the section that runs from the base of the pole to the house, which is all of about 12 feet.


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## Noodle Legs (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Actually re the bulbs, I dug out some old incandescent ones I had knocking around yesterday just to see, and they ended up being dimmer than the LEDs.
> 
> The voltage can be variable out here in the boonies - you can usually tell by the brownness of the toast. Sometimes it's a little noticeable on the lights, but nothing like this.
> 
> The cabling here is overhead. The only underground bit is the section that runs from the base of the pole to the house, which is all of about 12 feet.


At the very least I’d be calling your DNO and get them to send a overhead lines team out to check connections on the terminal pole and check volts/earth fault loop impedance on the main line, check with neighbours etc. Give them a bell on 105 (free) and they will send someone out to check (also free).


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## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I was going to suggest isolating each circuit at the fuse board and turn on one by one and see what the lights were like then. However if the two buildings are electrically separate then it is more likely the incoming supply.



I have just done that (it's the one thing I didn't think of yesterday), as it doesn't cost me to check. No difference to anything. So it all does point (as best I can tell) to an external fault.


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## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> At the very least I’d be calling your DNO and get them to send a overhead lines team out to check connections on the terminal pole and check volts/earth fault loop impedance on the main line, check with neighbours etc. Give them a bell on 105 (free) and they will send someone out to check (also free).



Mine also do a live chat, so will have a go that route. I've already made a note of the number on the pole.

Neighbours is a bit more problematic, as we're all pretty far flung here. And I'm on a "spur" as the next house on this side of the road is nearly a mile away.


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## Noodle Legs (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mine also do a live chat, so will have a go that route. I've already made a note of the number on the pole.
> 
> Neighbours is a bit more problematic, as we're all pretty far flung here. And I'm on a "spur" as the next house on this side of the road is nearly a mile away.


Low voltage overhead lines do tend to span a lot farther than on the underground and as such can end up with lower volts at their remotest points but they can still check the connections at your cutout and meter, on the terminal pole, the feeding substation (or pole transformer) and still enquire with others connected on the same bit of network (if any). If they determine the supply volts to be a little low then they may make adjustments to the transformer output (known as tapping up) although if you’re on a spur it may mean a short outage while they do so, hard to say for sure not knowing the exact feeding arrangements of your particular section of network.


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## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

Just did a rough and ready test with my daylight balanced craft lamp, as it's usually eye-wateringly bright. But it's equally dim when plugged in to the garage supply as it is in the house. It's not mega scientific, but it more or less proves it's not a domestic fault.

At least that is (hopefully) my arse covered in that respect.


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## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Low voltage overhead lines do tend to span a lot farther than on the underground and as such can end up with lower volts at their remotest points but they can still check the connections at your cutout and meter, on the terminal pole, the feeding substation (or pole transformer) and still enquire with others connected on the same bit of network (if any). If they determine the supply volts to be a little low then they may make adjustments to the transformer output (known as tapping up) although if you’re on a spur it may mean a short outage while they do so, hard to say for sure not knowing the exact feeding arrangements of your particular section of network.



Thanks, really appreciate the explanations 

Most of the houses along here are on the other side of the road, and ergo most of the poles are on the other side of the road. Well, when I say road, it's a gravel track for much of its length.


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## Poacher (2 Jan 2022)

There's No Lights On The Christmas Tree Mother, They're Burning Big Louie Tonight?​
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O71jKCqpnU



May also apply to @Dave7 's problem?


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## Noodle Legs (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Thanks, really appreciate the explanations


No problem, it’s bread and butter stuff for me! I’m on call myself tomorrow so may find myself being called out dealing with something similar (albeit underground- I’m not one of them linesman pole monkeys!)


----------



## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

Anyways, at least I do have a plan of action. 

I hope I can get sorted soon, because I'd really appreciate being able to see what I'm doing again. It's funny, how we take good lighting for granted, and how much it's missed when you don't have it.


----------



## Ridgeway (2 Jan 2022)

if you were really bored and good at maths then you could isolate everything but a few known outlets and count the draw over 1hr, that is of course if the meter counts its units based on a full 230v dose, does any know if it does ?

i feel a rebate coing on


----------



## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

I have a PhD in engineering, so yeah, I can do maths. I am not quite that bored, however... 

And in any case, the meter is in an outside cabinet which I don't have the key for.


----------



## Arrowfoot (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I have a PhD in engineering, so yeah, I can do maths. I am not quite that bored, however...


You solved a massive dilemma that was in my head for yonks. And it has nothing to do with gender. Your attention to details, your ability to articulate technical stuff clearly including the first opening post of this thread, your posts on racing among other things. I can sleep tonite.


----------



## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> You solved a massive dilemma that was in my head for yonks. And it has nothing to do with gender. Your attention to details, your ability to articulate technical stuff clearly including the first opening post of this thread, your posts on racing among other things. I can sleep tonite.



Oops, I didn't realise I was such an enigma...


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Personally I would not stick anything in any socket , plus you will have a hard job as they are blanked off until an earth pin is pushed in. Leave it to the pros! Get the supply checked first and then get the electrician in if required if supply is ok .


Stick insulated screwdriver in earth socket, releases pin guards. Then as with all multi-meters, the leads are insulated. The pins are far enough apart not to be a concern of shorting together.

Better still for electric shock, undo face plate from wall, measure behind or take shroud from consumer unit and access terminals there. 

If the OP hasnt a meter or a friend with a meter, hasnt/doesnt have the confidence to test the voltages. Call in an electrician. Who will in seconds determine whether its the incoming supply to the home or another issue.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Stick insulated screwdriver in earth socket, releases pin guards. Then as with all multi-meters, the leads are insulated. The pins are far enough apart not to be a concern of shorting together.
> 
> Better still for electric shock, undo face plate from wall, measure behind or take shroud from consumer unit and access terminals there.
> 
> If the OP hasnt a meter or a friend with a meter, hasnt/doesnt have the confidence to test the voltages. Call in an electrician. Who will in seconds determine whether its the incoming supply to the home or another issue.



Seriously  i think the OP with Phd in Engineering is not going to take that advice !


----------



## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Stick insulated screwdriver in earth socket, releases pin guards. Then as with all multi-meters, the leads are insulated. The pins are far enough apart not to be a concern of shorting together.
> 
> Better still for electric shock, undo face plate from wall, measure behind or take shroud from consumer unit and access terminals there.
> 
> If the OP hasnt a meter or a friend with a meter, hasnt/doesnt have the confidence to test the voltages. Call in an electrician. Who will in seconds determine whether its the incoming supply to the home or another issue.



Hmm, I'd rather not end up with hair like Hermione Granger... 

On a more serious note, I've near enough ascertained that it is a supply issue, because I have the same problem in the garage / utility room, which is a separate building and has its own supply and fuse boxes.

I ran a test with a plug-in lamp and a light meter, and it runs equally dim in the garage as it does in the house.


----------



## slowmotion (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Seriously  i think the OP with Phd in Engineering is not going to take that advice !


Quite so. After all, engineering should be interesting and fun.


----------



## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

slowmotion said:


> Quite so. After all, engineering should be interesting and fun.



Oh, I had a smashing time alright... 

Got to the point no one would book lab time same time as me, because I always conveniently "forgot" to tell people that when carbon fibre composite shatters, it sounds like a gun going off...


----------



## Profpointy (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Seriously  i think the OP with Phd in Engineering is not going to take that advice !



Why not? The advice seems sound to
me and a PhD engineer would be able to confirm that it's sound


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

You lot crack me up. There is nothing unsafe with sticking an insulated screwdriver into an Earth pin on a wall socket. You could easily do the same for each of the pins and be totally safe. 

If you know what you're doing.

Ive got over 30 years of electrical/ electronic trade experience. Everyone is so timid of trying to sort problems out for themselves these days. 

Like I said if you dont have the confidence get someone who has


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> Why not? The advice seems sound to
> me and a PhD engineer would be able to confirm that it's sound



i worry sometimes I really do ?


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## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> You lot crack me up. There is nothing unsafe with sticking an insulated screwdriver into an Earth pin on a wall socket. You could easily do the same for each of the pins and be totally safe.
> 
> If you know what you're doing.
> 
> ...


Same here dafty but I’d never suggest to someone on the internet to go and take that risk ?! That’s just stupid !!


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Same here dafty but I’d never suggest to someone on the internet to go and take that risk ?! That’s just stupid !!


Im sorry its neither stupid ir risky. Coupled with the fact this person has a high level of 'engineering' qualifications. He can surely understand the simple process with *insulated* tools.

I highlighted insulated because its key to ensure safety


----------



## Reynard (2 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Im sorry its neither stupid ir risky. Coupled with the fact this person has a high level of 'engineering' qualifications. He can surely understand the simple process with *insulated* tools.
> 
> I highlighted insulated because its key to ensure safety



I don't have the right (i.e. insulated) tools. Ergo I'm not going to try.

My area of expertise is in strength of materials and vehicle impact. And I'm female, btw...


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I don't have the right (i.e. insulated) tools. Ergo I'm not going to try.
> 
> My area of expertise is in strength of materials and vehicle impact. And I'm female, btw...


----------



## Profpointy (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> i worry sometimes I really do ?



How would you measure the voltage then ?


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> How would you measure the voltage then



I know do you  

However I wouldn’t be sticking screwdrivers in socket holes to do it !!! You know there’s a reason for all these safety features !!


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I don't have the right (i.e. insulated) tools. Ergo I'm not going to try.
> 
> My area of expertise is in strength of materials and vehicle impact. And I'm female, btw...


Apologies not knowing you're a girly. . Its fine if you dont possess the tools.


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> How would you measure the voltage then ?


It reminds me, in my day when diagnosing microwave oven problems. I would regularly tap into the magnatrons HV circuit to test current draw whilst running the oven and also HV output. AlI done using an analogue AVO meter. Fluke digital meters back then weren't able to measure the peak HV 
-too high.

Some years later we had a warranty claim for our home microwave. The technician would replace a suspect part, without any circuit testing, put the case back on and test.

I asked him why he didn't circuit test to diagnose the problem instead of parts swapping. He said they weren't allowed to test live equipment.


----------



## Profpointy (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> I know do you
> 
> However I wouldn’t be sticking screwdrivers in socket holes to do it !!! You know there’s a reason for all these safety features !!



Yes but you do need access to the conductors, and I'd not see it as any worse than taking the front off the socket, or similar at the consumer unit. I'd want a pukka meter, and especially the leads though - which my Fluke hopefully is.

I'm not advocating the screwdriver in the earth trick for avoiding a plug on an appliance or anything like that - but have seen it done


----------



## CXRAndy (2 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Depending on the fault , you don’t need to do any testing ?! My rather spendy built in microwave stopped heating, did everything bar heat the food ! Easy fault to diagnose ,no need to measure anything , magnetron goosed ! New one bought and hey presto hot food once more .


But it could have been short/open circuit rectifier or capacitor gone open circuit or low capacitance.

You could just throw parts at it. Obviously magnetrons are an obvious suspect, but not always the case. Also other components can damage good replaced parts if you dont know how to test components


----------



## MrGrumpy (2 Jan 2022)

well to be fair I did test the diodes  come to think of it and the scorched magnetron was major clue  . However I’m confident of my abilities and have access to testing equipment at work and at home. However I’ve also come a cropper once or twice so wary !


----------



## Lozz360 (3 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Im sorry its neither stupid ir risky. Coupled with the fact this person has a high level of 'engineering' qualifications. He can surely understand the simple process with *insulated* tools.
> 
> I highlighted insulated because its key to ensure safety


Seriously? You’re advising the OP, who in her first post said “I’m out of my depth when it comes to electrics” to stick multi-meter prongs into a live socket! Apart from the possible contact with live parts, someone unfamiliar with the kit might have the meter set to read current instead of voltage. The result would be disastrous. 

OP has, later on in the thread, stated that she has a PhD in Engineering, so will be familiar in the use of a multi-meter, so the risk as described above is minimal in her case. It’s still risky advice to give on a public forum.


----------



## Lozz360 (3 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> How would you measure the voltage then ?


I would use a plug-in energy monitor with voltage selected. They are about £15 to buy. Better than sticking multi-meter prongs into a live socket!


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

Right, that's UK Power Networks called, a fault logged and a job number received. They can't guarantee they'll come out today, but right now, I'll take what I can get.

There haven't been any other faults logged in the area according to the chap I spoke to, so I would imagine the fault probably has to lie somewhere between the house and the transformer box on the corner of the next field some three poles down.

I did go out this morning to have a gander and can't see anything untoward. Although - and this is a guess - the line does run through some fairly large trees, so maybe something's been rubbing away at the insulation...


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> Seriously? You’re advising the OP, who in her first post said “I’m out of my depth when it comes to electrics” to stick multi-meter prongs into a live socket! Apart from the possible contact with live parts, someone unfamiliar with the kit might have the meter set to read current instead of voltage. The result would be disastrous.
> 
> OP has, later on in the thread, stated that she has a PhD in Engineering, so will be familiar in the use of a multi-meter, so the risk as described above is minimal in her case. It’s still risky advice to give on a public forum.



I'm familiar with the use of a multi-meter, but I've no experience with electrics beyond what I did for A-level Physics, and that was nearly 30 years ago... 

That plug in energy meter thing sounds like a good thing to have, though.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

Just had a phone call. The power company people will be here in about an hour to have a gander.

Fingers crossed...


----------



## Arrowfoot (3 Jan 2022)

Got the kettle and the popcorn out. Waiting patiently.


----------



## MrGrumpy (3 Jan 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> Got the kettle and the popcorn out. Waiting patiently.


Kettle night take a while to boil


----------



## Chromatic (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Just had a phone call. The power company people will be here in about an hour to have a gander.
> 
> Fingers crossed...


This is getting exciting now! Wonder what they will find?


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

They've been and gone... It's not the supply - I'm getting the full 240 volts coming in at the meter.

So likely it's the bit between the meter and the fuse box. Great, I'll need to get a sparky in for that, except I don't know one. 

The guys from the power company were lovely though. I have a data sheet with all their readings, and I also have a serious case of chain saw envy.


----------



## MrGrumpy (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> They've been and gone... It's not the supply - I'm getting the full 240 volts coming in at the meter.
> 
> So likely it's the bit between the meter and the fuse box. Great, I'll need to get a sparky in for that, except I don't know one.
> 
> The guys from the power company were lovely though. I have a data sheet with all their readings, and I also have a serious case of chain saw envy.


Both buildings the same ? Supply from meter splits and goes to two separate fuse boards ?


----------



## Lozz360 (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> They've been and gone... It's not the supply - I'm getting the full 240 volts coming in at the meter.
> 
> So likely it's the bit between the meter and the fuse box. Great, I'll need to get a sparky in for that, except I don't know one.
> 
> The guys from the power company were lovely though. I have a data sheet with all their readings, and I also have a serious case of chain saw envy.


I take it that the lights were still dim while 240V was being measured at the meter?


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## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

MrGrumpy said:


> Both buildings the same ? Supply from meter splits and goes to two separate fuse boards ?



Yes. Indeed.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> I take it that the lights were still dim while 240V was being measured at the meter?



Yes, they were. No fluctuations while they were doing the measurements.


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## midlife (3 Jan 2022)

If there are two feeds from the meter and both low on volts does that mean there's something wrong with the meter?


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## Ridgeway (3 Jan 2022)

Process of illumination, step one done !

Here on my "fuse board" if one of my cartridge fuses goes then we get a reduced output to that particular circuit (or circuits). Can also happen if one of the RCBO's trips out. This happens about once or twice a year here.


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## Milzy (3 Jan 2022)

What does it mean when your lights are on a dimmer switch but the lights flicker like mad at certain levels? Poor wiring? Bad switch?


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## Noodle Legs (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> They've been and gone... It's not the supply - I'm getting the full 240 volts coming in at the meter.
> 
> So likely it's the bit between the meter and the fuse box. Great, I'll need to get a sparky in for that, except I don't know one.
> 
> The guys from the power company were lovely though. I have a data sheet with all their readings, and I also have a serious case of chain saw envy.


Good news but no less frustrating for you- it was always worth checking out though. So do you have an isolator (or a switch fuse isolator) in between the meter and the consumer unit then? Sounds like maybe a bad connection?

In the meantime, I’m out on call myself disconnecting a dodgy supply to one of those “Moroccan Herb” farms……


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## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Good news but no less frustrating for you- it was always worth checking out though. So do you have an isolator (or a switch fuse isolator) in between the meter and the consumer unit then? Sounds like maybe a bad connection?
> 
> In the meantime, I’m out on call myself disconnecting a dodgy supply to one of those “Moroccan Herb” farms……



Well, a negative result is sometimes just as useful as a positive one. At least I now know what it is not.

If by an "isolator" you mean a small box with an on-off switch and removable cover that the cable coming into the house feeds into at the bottom, and then has wires coming out of it at the top which then go into the two fuse boxes, then yes.

Good luck in untangling that mess. I hear these guys can get pretty Heath Robinson with their wiring.


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## Profpointy (3 Jan 2022)

Milzy said:


> What does it mean when your lights are on a dimmer switch but the lights flicker like mad at certain levels? Poor wiring? Bad switch?



If the bulbs aren't traditional incandescent bulbs, and hardly any are these days, then many of them simply don't work properly on the reduced power of the dimmer but flicker instead. You can get specifically labelled "dimmable" LED bulbs which are presumably OK. I don't like dim lights so have never tried them - I want the light on or off


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## bruce1530 (3 Jan 2022)

Ridgeway said:


> Here on my "fuse board" if one of my cartridge fuses goes then we get a reduced output to that particular circuit (or circuits). Can also happen if one of the RCBO's trips out. This happens about once or twice a year here.




That's worrying.

If a fuse fails, it should isolate the circuit. That's the whole purpose of a fuse.

If it's failing, and you're still getting a (reduced) supply on that circuit, then something is seriously amiss with your wiring.


----------



## Milzy (3 Jan 2022)

Profpointy said:


> If the bulbs aren't traditional incandescent bulbs, and hardly any are these days, then many of them simply don't work properly on the reduced power of the dimmer but flicker instead. You can get specifically labelled "dimmable" LED bulbs which are presumably OK. I don't like dim lights so have never tried them - I want the light on or off


I might have to buy standard switches & swap them out. I am the same on or off. If you want ambience there’s lamps & special lights for that.


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## aferris2 (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> They've been and gone... It's not the supply - I'm getting the full 240 volts coming in at the meter.
> 
> So likely it's the bit between the meter and the fuse box. Great, I'll need to get a sparky in for that, except I don't know one.
> 
> The guys from the power company were lovely though. I have a data sheet with all their readings, and I also have a serious case of chain saw envy.


That's narrowed the fault down a bit which is good news. Did they say what the voltage was at the fuse box?

This sounds like it's something to keep a close eye on because it could be a fire risk. Get recommendations from people you know in the area. It shouldn't take long to narrow down where the fault is, even if it then takes a bit longer (and expense) to fix it.

Good luck!


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

aferris2 said:


> That's narrowed the fault down a bit which is good news. Did they say what the voltage was at the fuse box?
> 
> This sounds like it's something to keep a close eye on because it could be a fire risk. Get recommendations from people you know in the area. It shouldn't take long to narrow down where the fault is, even if it then takes a bit longer (and expense) to fix it.
> 
> Good luck!



They weren't authorized to measure that, and I don't have the right kit.

I checked the fuse box itself yesterday, testing to see whether the fault was in any particular circuit - easy enough to do, taking each breaker out in turn. But it doesn't appear to be. I think @Noodle Legs and the guys who came earlier are probably right - that it's likely a duff connection between the meter and the fuse box.


----------



## aferris2 (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> They weren't authorized to measure that


I'm surprised because it would be so easy for them to do. But as it's not part of the power supply, maybe...



Reynard said:


> I think @Noodle Legs and the guys who came earlier are probably right - that it's likely a duff connection between the meter and the fuse box.


... and that could be a fire risk.


----------



## Noodle Legs (3 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> If by an "isolator" you mean a small box with an on-off switch and removable cover that the cable coming into the house feeds into at the bottom, and then has wires coming out of it at the top which then go into the two fuse boxes, then yes.


That’s exactly what I mean yes. There’s a good chance that it’s a connection that’s a bit dicky or at one of the con units (although if both con units have lighting circuits that are dim then it’s something common to both of them like an isolator or “Henley” type 2 way connector block.) As already mentioned earlier we as DNOs whether yours (UKPN), mine (WPD) or the others are not authorised to work on installations beyond the meter as these then belong to the property owner and thus fall under the scope of BS7671 wiring regs. The plot thickens…….


----------



## Reynard (3 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> That’s exactly what I mean yes. There’s a good chance that it’s a connection that’s a bit dicky or at one of the con units (although if both con units have lighting circuits that are dim then it’s something common to both of them like an isolator or “Henley” type 2 way connector block.) As already mentioned earlier we as DNOs whether yours (UKPN), mine (WPD) or the others are not authorised to work on installations beyond the meter as these then belong to the property owner and thus fall under the scope of BS7671 wiring regs. The plot thickens…….



That does narrow it down significantly.

One fuse box is definitely for the house - three lighting circuits, one for the cooker, one for the sockets and one for the water heater. The other fuse box has four breakers in it but they're not labelled, so I'm not sure what they do. I wonder if that's the box that takes the supply from the meter to the garage...

The fuse boxes are the old type, btw, with the large chunky breakers that you pull out and have to unscrew to put a standard fuse of the required amperage in.

There's a sparky based in the village apparently. I can ask around to see if he's any good.


----------



## slowmotion (3 Jan 2022)

This is intriguing. I'm apologise because my suggestion that it's almost certainly a supply problem has turned out to be utter poop!
Please keep telling the parishioners how the mystery unfolds.......and Happy New Year.


----------



## Noodle Legs (4 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> The fuse boxes are the old type, btw, with the large chunky breakers that you pull out and have to unscrew to put a standard fuse of the required amperage in.


Ah, the Wylex… sometimes with rewireable fuses, sometimes with the cartridge type, some with the BS3871 type MCBs in. Memories…. 

They were a pleasure to work on back in the day as there was loads of room inside to dress the cables in neatly (unlike today’s bird nests) but the MCBs (trips) were (and still are) notoriously dodgy. It may also be worth checking the connections at the main switch on them as they had a habit of overheating, as did the busbar. A good spark would check all that in any case.


----------



## Reynard (4 Jan 2022)

Yep, Wylex - them's the ones.  I'll make a note of that. The more info I have, the better. Some of what's come up in this thread has been eminently useful so far. Every day is a school day. 

Sounds like you see the Wylex boxes much in the same way that I see manual drafting compared to CAD... There's something very rewarding (and relaxing) about sitting at a drawing board with a sheet of paper and a freshly-sharpened 2H pencil...


----------



## classic33 (4 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Ah, the Wylex… sometimes with rewireable fuses, sometimes with the cartridge type, some with the BS3871 type MCBs in. Memories….
> 
> They were a pleasure to work on back in the day as there was loads of room inside to dress the cables in neatly (unlike today’s bird nests) but the MCBs (trips) were (and still are) notoriously dodgy. It may also be worth checking the connections at the main switch on them as they had a habit of overheating, as did the busbar. A good spark would check all that in any case.


Do you come across DIAZED fuses any more?


----------



## Reynard (4 Jan 2022)

slowmotion said:


> This is intriguing. I'm apologise because my suggestion that it's almost certainly a supply problem has turned out to be utter poop!
> Please keep telling the parishioners how the mystery unfolds.......and Happy New Year.



Well, it was the logical assumption, wasn't it?

Mind, collectively, we've narrowed it down a fair bit.


----------



## Lozz360 (4 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Do you come across DIAZED fuses any more?


Never in domestic installations. Occasionally in utility company’s supply equipment. Circuit breakers have become generally preferred to any type of fuse in just about all applications nowadays.


----------



## Noodle Legs (4 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Do you come across DIAZED fuses any more?


Are they those bottle shaped ones? If so I haven’t seen them in years, and certainly not in consumer units or dist boards. Last I saw of them was in a control panel for a machine I used to maintain in my apprentice days.


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## Lozz360 (4 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Are they those bottle shaped ones? If so I haven’t seen them in years, and certainly not in consumer units or dist boards. Last I saw of them was in a control panel for a machine I used to maintain in my apprentice days.


Yes. White porcelain bottle shaped fuses.


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## Noodle Legs (4 Jan 2022)

Well everyday’s a school day. Never knew they were called that! I’ve known them simply as bottle fuses

It’s possible we may have them in our control circuit panels at our primary substations but I’ve never seen them personally and I’m not a substation fitter, just someone who sticks live wires together……


----------



## Ridgeway (4 Jan 2022)

Lozz360 said:


> Yes. White porcelain bottle shaped fuses.



those are the type we have here,







coloured ends according to fuse rating that conveniently pop off to show that the fuse has blown


----------



## Milkfloat (13 Jan 2022)

@Reynard Did you ever get a resolution?


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## Reynard (13 Jan 2022)

I would if I could find a sparky... The ones listed in the parish magazine were a waste of time - job too small, says they.

In the mean time, I've just replaced as many bulbs as I can with ones of higher wattage.

Might just turn everything off myself and check the breaker. Wouldn't hurt to take it out, clean all the contacts and put it back...


----------



## CXRAndy (14 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I would if I could find a sparky... The ones listed in the parish magazine were a waste of time - job too small, says they.
> 
> In the mean time, I've just replaced as many bulbs as I can with ones of higher wattage.
> 
> Might just turn everything off myself and check the breaker. Wouldn't hurt to take it out, clean all the contacts and put it back...


You don't need to take it out. Get a digital multi ( borrow one) measure across the breaker for voltage drop. This will tell you if poor connection is there without dismantling anything.


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

Surely even a humble mechanical engineer can work out how to install something like this: 





Here.


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## newfhouse (14 Jan 2022)

Do the lights dim even further when you turn on high current appliances?


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## Reynard (14 Jan 2022)

A meter is on the shopping list. 

And no, turning additional stuff on like oven / oil radiator / kettle etc makes no difference whatsoever.


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## lazybloke (14 Jan 2022)

There's a website where you put in your requirements and Trades-folk contact you if they're interested. Worth a go, maybe.
They'll probably say you need a new consumer unit, to bump up the price


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## BrumJim (14 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> A meter is on the shopping list.
> 
> And no, turning additional stuff on like oven / oil radiator / kettle etc makes no difference whatsoever.


Hmm - maybe just a problem with the lighting circuit, then. Ditch the plug-in meter, and bite the bullet and go for a proper multimeter with red and black wires. You know you want to!


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## Reynard (14 Jan 2022)

BrumJim said:


> Hmm - maybe just a problem with the lighting circuit, then. Ditch the plug-in meter, and bite the bullet and go for a proper multimeter with red and black wires. You know you want to!



Not, as far as I can tell. Because some of the lights plug into wall sockets, which are on a different circuit. And I've taken the breakers out of the box individually, trying to ascertain whether one of the circuits in the house was causing the issue. But they're not.

Oddly though, it doesn't seem quite so bad now that a neighbour's xmas lights have been taken down... 

But rest assured I will be buying a multi meter next time my path takes me to Screwfix.


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## newfhouse (14 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> A meter is on the shopping list.
> 
> And no, turning additional stuff on like oven / oil radiator / kettle etc makes no difference whatsoever.


Less likely to be high resistance in the main breaker in that case.

Another vote for a meter. Engineering is nothing without measurements.


----------



## slowmotion (14 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> A meter is on the shopping list.
> 
> And no, turning additional stuff on like oven / oil radiator / kettle etc makes no difference whatsoever.


For poking around, Screwfix does something for £8.24.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-ac-d...0v/75337#product_additional_details_container


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## gbb (14 Jan 2022)

Ridgeway said:


> those are the type we have here,
> 
> View attachment 624927
> 
> ...


We used to use them in a former factory, in control panels, fuses sat in a screw in holder iirc. For the life of me i couldnt remember what we called them when we ordered them, then i saw Gl/Gg, that was it.
Biggest ones we had were 600 amps, not bottle fuses but bladed ones, size of a housebrick 

Sorry for the thread diversion.

Back on topic, it'd be easy to suspect voltage drop. Beyond many peoples scope, id be checking the security of the connections feeding the light circuits, a loose wire perhaps. Any odd smells, odd sounds, fizzing or anything, ?
Or it could be external, supply problems etc


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## fossyant (14 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> A meter is on the shopping list.
> 
> And no, turning additional stuff on like oven / oil radiator / kettle etc makes no difference whatsoever.



I'm sorry to break this too you, it's probably age.


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## Reynard (14 Jan 2022)

gbb said:


> We used to use them in a former factory, in control panels, fuses sat in a screw in holder iirc. For the life of me i couldnt remember what we called them when we ordered them, then i saw Gl/Gg, that was it.
> Biggest ones we had were 600 amps, not bottle fuses but bladed ones, size of a housebrick
> 
> Sorry for the thread diversion.
> ...



I've checked as much as I can. And as I mentioned upthread, my armchair is next to the cupboard that houses the fuse box. I'd notice it pretty quickly if the thing had suddenly developed language skills or strange smells.


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## Mr Celine (15 Jan 2022)

Is your kettle taking longer to boil?
You could measure the temperature of a known quantity of cold water and work out how much power the kettle is getting from the time it takes to boil.


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## irw (15 Jan 2022)

Mr Celine said:


> Is your kettle taking longer to boil?
> You could measure the temperature of a known quantity of cold water and work out how much power the kettle is getting from the time it takes to boil.


Blimey…that’s getting a bit technical! Not to mention the fact that the theory is that there is a lack of voltage rather than a lack of power ;p


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## newfhouse (15 Jan 2022)

irw said:


> Blimey…that’s getting a bit technical! Not to mention the fact that the theory is that there is a lack of voltage rather than a lack of power ;p


Power is volts x amps. Low volts means low power.

The boiling time measurement would only be useful if the OP knew how long the kettle took to boil normally.


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## CXRAndy (15 Jan 2022)

Mr Celine said:


> Is your kettle taking longer to boil?
> You could measure the temperature of a known quantity of cold water and work out how much power the kettle is getting from the time it takes to boil.


Just measure resistance of element. Power = V^2 x R. 

Or put amp clamp around live or neutral


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## bruce1530 (15 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Just measure resistance of element. Power = V^2 x R.



If resistance was constant, that'd be straightforward. But resistance varies with temperature.
And how do you propose to measure the resistance, bearing in mind that the reason for this circular discussion was that the original poster didn't have a multimeter!


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## Reynard (15 Jan 2022)

And I've got a knackered, scaled-up kettle cos you can cut the water out this way with a carving knife...


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## Reynard (19 Jan 2022)

Bollocks...

Whether this is related or not, goodness knows, but I now have no power in the garage / utility room. Was fine yesterday evening when I went to fill the wood bins in the house, but when I went for an armful of extra logs this afternoon, zilch. Ordinarily it wouldn't be a biggie, but that's where the freezer and the main fridge are. (The joys of only having a galley kitchen) I do have a bit of grace, what with it being so cold right now, but it is a pain.

Have tried resetting the main switch, but nada. Mind, it's cold and dark, I'm up a ladder and I can't see what I'm doing. I will leave it till the morning and good daylight.

But the only things that are always on and running are the fridge and the freezer. So the obvious culprit is the circuit for the sockets and those things connected to them. The other one is the light circuit, but I'm less certain about that.

It's the new style fuse box in there btw, not the Wylex that's in the house.

N.B. Supply to the house isn't affected in any way. Lights actually seem to be OK at the moment, btw. It's been a lot better since some of the neighbours cleared up their outdoor Xmas lights.


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## 13 rider (19 Jan 2022)

Can you run an extension lead from the house to garage to plug the freezer in to save it's contents for now


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## aferris2 (19 Jan 2022)

Have you got a long extension cable? One end to a socket somewhere in the house (where there is power). Other end to fridge and or freezer.


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## Reynard (19 Jan 2022)

Unfortunately not. I don't have any external power sockets and I don't have a cable that's long enough. I've got a couple of days' grace, because it's cold and the garage is unheated. The freezer is also full, so it will hold its temperature for a while as long as the door isn't opened.


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## Noodle Legs (19 Jan 2022)

13 rider said:


> Can you run an extension lead from the house to garage to plug the freezer in to save it's contents for now


The problem with that is if the appliances are faulty then it’ll trip the power inside the rest of the house. 

If you suspect it’s the socket circuit then Unplug everything in the garage and try resetting the trip. If it doesn’t hold in then it could be a wiring fault. If it holds in then plug in your appliances one at a time and see if it trips and with what appliance. If it does then try again in case it’s just nuisance tripping and holds in the next time. If it persists in tripping out then that appliance could be faulty, or maybe damp. Hard to say for sure when I can’t see it.


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## Reynard (19 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> The problem with that is if the appliances are faulty then it’ll trip the power inside the rest of the house.
> 
> If you suspect it’s the socket circuit then Unplug everything in the garage and try resetting the trip. If it doesn’t hold in then it could be a wiring fault. If it holds in then plug in your appliances one at a time and see if it trips and with what appliance. If it does then try again in case it’s just nuisance tripping and holds in the next time. If it persists in tripping out then that appliance could be faulty, or maybe damp. Hard to say for sure when I can’t see it.



That's much what I planned on doing. 

The house is fine, it's just the garage / utility room.

Everything seemed fine yesterday teatime when I went to the garage to get some logs. Lights turned on fine. So between then and early afternoon, something's gone awry. The only things that were physically turned on and working at that time were the fridge and freezer.

When I tried a reset of the box, I heard a klunk, and then straight after, a second clunk.

I suspect the culprit is either the fridge, the freezer or the multi socket they're connected to. It's a double power point, but the washing machine is plugged into the other side.


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## Noodle Legs (19 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> That's much what I planned on doing.
> 
> The house is fine, it's just the garage / utility room.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you’ve got it all in hand, I’ll get the popcorn


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## Reynard (19 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Sounds like you’ve got it all in hand, I’ll get the popcorn



I've got a stash of Tesco sweet & salty. Can always trebuchet a bag over.  (It is horribly addictive, btw...)

I'll update as and when.


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## Noodle Legs (19 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> I've got a stash of Tesco sweet & salty.


Perfect- my favourite!


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## Reynard (19 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Perfect- my favourite!



*incoming*

Although with this brisk nor'westerly blowing, it'll probably end up raining popcorn in Stowmarket...


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## fossyant (19 Jan 2022)

Just to say, sockets can go faulty too - but unplug the lot, maybe test the sockets with another known electrical item - e.g. lamp, then plug in and test each garage electrical item, one at a time. The dryer tripped everything recently - caused by a bit decorative chain that had gotten through the vents onto the heating element and shorted it. Took the back off and the offending item fell out.


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## Reynard (19 Jan 2022)

Yes, of course, the socket itself too... I hope not, though. Likewise, I really hope it's not the freezer. 

If it is the fridge that's gone t*ts up, I can at least move stuff to the kitchen fridge, plus I have a spare diddy little one I can get going again. The fridge in question is rather long in the tooth, so it is the prime candidate.

Hey ho, I'll find out in the morning.


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## Profpointy (19 Jan 2022)

It's
probably already been suggested but my guess is you've got a bad connection in thr fusebox - one of the brass screws not done up tight. It's a while since I've connected anything up to the main board but presumably you can get at it - power off first obviously - and nip up all the screws tight. If you see an obviously scorched one that'll be it


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## Noodle Legs (20 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Just to say, sockets can go faulty too - but unplug the lot, maybe test the sockets with another known electrical item


Yeah that’s a possibility, but if the socket itself is faulty you probably wouldn’t need to plug anything in as it would still trip out anyway even when everything is unplugged. Then I’d be doing a visual inspection on the sockets in that circuit to look for obvious signs of burning, cracking etc. If nothing obvious then we’re getting into the realms of maybe getting an electrician out to unscrew and check the backs of them for poor connections etc. Personally though if it’s just started happening then 9 times out of 10 it’s something obvious.


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## Reynard (20 Jan 2022)

Sorted. I think. Fingers crossed.

Turned everything off. Unplugged the fridge and freezer. Reset the box. Then only turned on the circuit for the lights, as that seemed the least likely to be the problem. And I had power.

Then I turned on the circuit for the sockets. That didn't trip anything. 

Plugged my craft lamp into the socket concerned, and that was fine. So plugged the the fridge and freezer back in, and got them going again. So far, no problems, although paranoid little me will go and check again in a little while. You know how it is.

The only thing that I can think of, is that somehow, (and I'm not sure how) the plugs weren't seated properly in the multi-socket. Otherwise, it might just have been one of those random things.


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## Noodle Legs (20 Jan 2022)

Reynard said:


> Sorted. I think. Fingers crossed.
> 
> Turned everything off. Unplugged the fridge and freezer. Reset the box. Then only turned on the circuit for the lights, as that seemed the least likely to be the problem. And I had power.
> 
> ...


Probably just nuisance tripping.


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## Reynard (20 Jan 2022)

Noodle Legs said:


> Probably just nuisance tripping.



Fingers crossed it is just that. 

Good job I waited till daylight to troubleshoot, as last night I couldn't see the little coloured markers below the switches.


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## fossyant (20 Jan 2022)

Glad it's sorted. Could indeed be a poorly seated plug that can cause a trip.

We found out the plug socket for the fridge/freezer was faulty - caused all sorts of random trips. Stupidly, it wasn't on the downstairs circuit. The builders had fitted it to the upstairs circuit to complicate matters. Oh and they labeled the oven and shower trips wrongly - blooming good job I checked the shower didn't come on when I was changing the unit.... why is the oven off ?


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## Reynard (20 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Glad it's sorted. Could indeed be a poorly seated plug that can cause a trip.
> 
> We found out the plug socket for the fridge/freezer was faulty - caused all sorts of random trips. Stupidly, it wasn't on the downstairs circuit. The builders had fitted it to the upstairs circuit to complicate matters. Oh and they labeled the oven and shower trips wrongly - blooming good job I checked the shower didn't come on when I was changing the unit.... why is the oven off ?



Crikey, that's just bonkers!


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## CXRAndy (20 Jan 2022)

Just throw a spanner of additional test equipment. Was it the rcd that tripped? Maybe worth testing the offending circuit to see the earth leakage figure. It should be less than 20mA as they can trip out above this figure even though specified to trip at 30mA. 

We had random tripping. I diagnosed excessive earth leakage due to so many pieces of equipment. I got my electrician to replace the single rcd with individual RCBO for each circuit. Since then no more random tripping


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## Noodle Legs (21 Jan 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Maybe worth testing the offending circuit to see the earth leakage figure.


As well as an ins res test. Low insulation resistance can also give way to rising earth leakage currents.


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## Reynard (21 Jan 2022)

You guys have lost me.  

But the power is still on.


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## Solocle (20 May 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> It reminds me, in my day when diagnosing microwave oven problems. I would regularly tap into the magnatrons HV circuit to test current draw whilst running the oven and also HV output. AlI done using an analogue AVO meter. Fluke digital meters back then weren't able to measure the peak HV
> -too high.
> 
> Some years later we had a warranty claim for our home microwave. The technician would replace a suspect part, without any circuit testing, put the case back on and test.
> ...


With good reason. The internals of a microwave oven are about the scariest thing in an average home.

I had a fiddle with a scavenged microwave transformer this week, but I took significant precautions. Mainly a 2 metre social distance.

Here's it generating some nice big sparks when I turned it *off -* the flyback of the magnetic field collapsing. The spark gap was obviously too big for the >2000V output to jump.

And then I moved the ends closer together.


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