# Court result after HGV close pass



## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

I'd received a summons to attend for a 10am trial. Attendance required by 0930.

The court ushers seemed surprised when I arrived, but showed me to a witness waiting room.

At about 10 the prosecutor came to see me. The case hadn't been listed for trial today, but for a case management hearing, not at 10 but at noon.

She suggested I went for coffee and she'd see if the bench would proceed directly to trial if the Defendant agreed. He wouldn't arrive until at the earliest, 1130 though. Unlike me, he'd been given the correct time.

I explained a typo in my statement. I also explained that I didn't know/couldn't recall if I'd uploaded rear footage, but I'd mentioned the rear camera in my statement.

She had only seen stills from the front footage. I showed her the rear footage on my phone. It shows again the back of the trailer getting uncomfortably close to me. I told her of the conversation I'd had with the defendant where he couldn't see a problem with the close pass.

She said she'd wait until the Defendant arrived to see if we could get on with the trial today and that she'd explain the mix-up about my attendance to the court. 

I went for a nice stroll around Bath, a coffee & flapjack. 

1144 Defendant still not arrived. He showed up five minutes past twelve and went into court as I waited outside.

After seeing the footage and having legal advice he pleaded guilty. He'd been driving for over 50 years and already had three points for speeding. He was still driving HGVs for the same company. His solicitor explained that he now takes greater care around cyclists and that he'd got his own dashcam. His solicitor offered his apology to me which I accepted.

The magistrates didn't like how close he'd been to me. He was a “professional driver” in charge of a large HGV. They imposed five points and a £200 fine, with £85 costs and £32 victim surcharge. The bench thanked me for attending and I thanked them for dealing with the case today.

The driver seemed to regard it as bad luck I'd reported him, though. Which I suppose it was. I'm certain his driving wouldn't have altered (if indeed it has) without this experience. Ended with a handshake. 

*My learning points:-*

Keep your own records of *exactly what files you've uploaded* and what you said on the initial report, as Avon & Somerset police don't send a copy

You never know when you might be requested to attend court months afterwards. I am now keeping footage for 12 months. Without footage I would not recall enough detail. If it's a very serious case write everything down straightaway, what you were wearing, what lights, what cameras, any other details.

I was most surprised that this one was prosecuted as my previous complaints about FirstBus doing the same thing had only ever resulted in a warning letter to the fleet manager.

Footage :


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## Smudge (11 Mar 2020)

Trucker too impatient not to wait until he's cleared the pinch point before overtaking. 
Us cyclists have to put up with shyte driving like this a lot.


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

Smudge said:


> Trucker too impatient not to wait until he's cleared the pinch point before overtaking.
> Us cyclists have to put up with shyte driving like this a lot.



It's somewhat unusual for any HGV driver to try to get past me here. In fact the vast majority who pass me up & down the A38 are really patient and careful. I'm glad this one was prosecuted.


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## Fab Foodie (11 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> View attachment 507973
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well done Arjimlad, good job!


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## Smudge (11 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> It's somewhat unusual for any HGV driver to try to get past me here. In fact the vast majority who pass me up & down the A38 are really patient and careful. I'm glad this one was prosecuted.



Yes, this pinch point overtaking happens far more commonly with cars i find. On the rare occasions i've had it with a truck, especially an artic, it scares the crap out of you.


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## dave r (11 Mar 2020)

Superb effort


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (11 Mar 2020)

Good on you.


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## ianrauk (11 Mar 2020)

Nice one.
Awful overtake from a supposed professional driver.


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## DCLane (11 Mar 2020)

Well done for seeing this one through.


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## Smudge (11 Mar 2020)

Was the charge undue care & attention ?


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

Smudge said:


> Was the charge undue care & attention ?



Yes, driving without due care & attention. Sentencing band B, higher culpability in an HGV but lesser harm inflicted.


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

I am in the same court on Monday for the trial of one of the nastiest drivers I have ever encountered. Others have had worse experiences but this one was distressing as it was deliberately dangerous rather than just careless/reckless. More later.


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## numbnuts (11 Mar 2020)




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## Pale Rider (11 Mar 2020)

You've nailed your 'learning points'.

CPS administration is, regrettably, less than seamless.

The better records you keep, the more chance you have of being able to sort out one of their foul ups.


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## raleighnut (11 Mar 2020)

He might think again before doing it to someone else.


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## steveindenmark (11 Mar 2020)

Had he waited a couple of seconds to get past the second island. He sould have no problem getting past you safely. 

Well done for seeing this through to its conclusion.


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## lane (11 Mar 2020)

Well done. If I understand correctly he now has 8 points? That's not good for an HGV driver most companies won't employ with more than 6 as far I know.


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## bikingdad90 (11 Mar 2020)

Now he has pleaded guilty I wonder if he will lose his job for having 8 points on his license unless self employed?


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> Now he has pleaded guilty I wonder if he will lose his job for having 8 points on his license unless self employed?



Now he has accrued 8 points, you mean ? It was said he was still driving for Downtons, they are happy with him but I don't know if this means he will keep his job. Even his defence solicitor didn't try to say anything to mitigate the close pass. If he can't be trusted to judge passing a cyclist safely he shouldn't really be driving a huge HGV about.


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## Drago (11 Mar 2020)

Nice work. Shame he's not off to share a bedroom with Harvey Weinstein, but not a bad result all the same.


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## Pale Rider (11 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> Even his defence solicitor didn't try to say anything



You can be sure that if a job loss was even a possibility the solicitor would have used it in mitigation.

"He may be further punished by the loss of his job, your worships."

I'm surprised the solicitor didn't try for the minimum number of points, which is three.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...-without-due-care-and-attention-revised-2017/


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> You can be sure that if a job loss was even a possibility the solicitor would have used it in mitigation.
> 
> "He may be further punished by the loss of his job, your worships."
> 
> ...


It was accepted as category two by CPS and defence due to the size of the vehicle


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

Drago said:


> Nice work. Shame he's not off to share a bedroom with Harvey Weinstein, but not a bad result all the same.


I'm not sure he's Mr Weinstein's type but then again..


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## Pale Rider (11 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> It was accepted as category two by CPS and defence due to the size of the vehicle



The answer to that, if the solicitor is trying hard, is: "They are guidelines, not tramlines, your worships."


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## Milkfloat (11 Mar 2020)

You seem to have far more support from your local Police than I do. I have given up even reporting as my local force don’t even acknowledge videos sent in.


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## Arjimlad (11 Mar 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> You seem to have far more support from your local Police than I do. I have given up even reporting as my local force don’t even acknowledge videos sent in.


All our lot do is say : - 

"Thank you for taking the time to upload your footage which has now been processed (a warning letter or a fixed penalty or a prosecution has been issued). Thank you for helping to keep our roads safe. 
I can confirm that as you are a witness to this offence, you will not receive any further updates."

So you're not permitted to know anything at all unless you get a call asking you to trot along to court next week about something which happened six months ago. Unless you can convince them you are a victim - which I think is the case for the matter due on Monday.


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## HMS_Dave (11 Mar 2020)

What would you expect when you have Alf Garnett behind the wheel....


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## Bazzer (12 Mar 2020)

Good result.
I keep both the full segment (Cheshire Police) and the shortened clip (Greater Manchester Police), until I am told what action has been taken, or 12 months has elapsed, as well as the witness statement I submitted. Cheshire Police do seem more active in bringing crap drivers to account.


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## Arjimlad (12 Mar 2020)

steveindenmark said:


> Had he waited a couple of seconds to get past the second island. He sould have no problem getting past you safely.
> 
> Well done for seeing this through to its conclusion.



Yes, this is the rear view & comparative safe overtake by the following HGV driver who was a lot more patient


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## Pale Rider (12 Mar 2020)

I'm looking forward to hearing about your next court adventure.

The fact that you are getting a good handle on how courts work makes your cases stronger than others.

Shouldn't be so, but it is.

Tactics, and experience which guides you as to what is likely to happen for a given course of action, play an enormous part in achieving your desired result.


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## Arjimlad (15 Mar 2020)

Co-incidentally, my wife overheard a local driver on Friday whining about getting filmed overtaking a cyclist too close and having to pay £165 to go on a driving course as she already had six points for speeding. 

Not her fault there was an oncoming car, apparently. Hope she learns something on the course! 

This was one I'd reported on 4th February for a very dangerous overtake in the face of an oncoming Mitsubishi Shogun. I wonder how she'd have felt if she'd killed the father of one of her daughter's classmates?


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## EltonFrog (15 Mar 2020)

How does one report this sort of incident? Is it done online?


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## Shearwater Missile (15 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> Co-incidentally, my wife overheard a local driver on Friday whining about getting filmed overtaking a cyclist too close and having to pay £165 to go on a driving course as she already had six points for speeding.
> 
> Not her fault there was an oncoming car, apparently. Hope she learns something on the course!
> 
> This was one I'd reported on 4th February for a very dangerous overtake in the face of an oncoming Mitsubishi Shogun. I wonder how she'd have felt if she'd killed the father of one of her daughter's classmates?


Several years ago I had a car written off by a skip lorry that came flying around a corner not realising that the traffic had stopped because of traffic lights and roadworks ( crap in his eyes). As he brakedhe skewed across the road with me coming the other way. I took avoiding action and drove up the bank/verge. I had to go to hospital for lacerations from the broken glass and weeks later I suffered from whiplash injuries ( they did not occur right away). When I phone my insurers to report the accident the skip driver had not even phoned his, he was too busy. I was asked by the police if I wanted to prosecute but was advised by them just to let the driver go on a driver awareness course so this is what I did. I had to phone the driver about his insurance and he whinged to me about having to go on this course and how much it would cost and the money he would loose by not working that 1/2 day. Full of self importance he was. I would`nt do it again, let him take the points and the fine I say.


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## Pale Rider (15 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> Co-incidentally, my wife overheard a local driver on Friday whining about getting filmed overtaking a cyclist too close and having to pay £165 to go on a driving course as she already had six points for speeding.
> 
> Not her fault there was an oncoming car, apparently. Hope she learns something on the course!
> 
> This was one I'd reported on 4th February for a very dangerous overtake in the face of an oncoming Mitsubishi Shogun. I wonder how she'd have felt if she'd killed the father of one of her daughter's classmates?



She didn't 'have to' go on the speed awareness course as she claimed, she could have opted to contest the matter in court, or plead guilty by post and accept the fixed penalty and points.

She opted for the awareness course because it was the best option for her, particularly in light of already having a few points.

Which makes her, as you say, a selfish whining twat.

Just like the lorry driver in @Shearwater Missile's post.

He was fortunate to have the opportunity to get out from under a motoring prosecution, but still moaned about his treatment.

Which makes him another selfish whining twat.

I would probably have taken the same course in their situations.

But I would at least be savvy and gracious enough to accept I'd had a good result.


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## Arjimlad (15 Mar 2020)

Shearwater Missile said:


> Several years ago I had a car written off by a skip lorry that came flying around a corner not realising that the traffic had stopped because of traffic lights and roadworks ( crap in his eyes). As he brakedhe skewed across the road with me coming the other way. I took avoiding action and drove up the bank/verge. I had to go to hospital for lacerations from the broken glass and weeks later I suffered from whiplash injuries ( they did not occur right away). When I phone my insurers to report the accident the skip driver had not even phoned his, he was too busy. I was asked by the police if I wanted to prosecute but was advised by them just to let the driver go on a driver awareness course so this is what I did. I had to phone the driver about his insurance and he whinged to me about having to go on this course and how much it would cost and the money he would loose by not working that 1/2 day. Full of self importance he was. I would`nt do it again, let him take the points and the fine I say.



Agree - but when I file a report of a close pass or dangerous overtake, the Police say I am only a witness & not a victim, therefore they will not update me on any outcomes. I don't get any more information unless the matter ends up in court & I'm called as a witness. The exception to this is Mondays' case where I think they must have classed me as a victim because of the dangerous deliberate motorised bullying involved.

@EltonFrog I upload footage online to a special portal run by Avon & Somerset police. Not sure what might be available in your area though. It doesn't take very long to do. This one appears to cover Oxfordshire https://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/ro/report/rti/rti-b/report-a-road-traffic-incident/


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## Shearwater Missile (15 Mar 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> Agree - but when I file a report of a close pass or dangerous overtake, the Police say I am only a witness & not a victim, therefore they will not update me on any outcomes. I don't get any more information unless the matter ends up in court & I'm called as a witness. The exception to this is Mondays' case where I think they must have classed me as a victim because of the dangerous deliberate motorised bullying involved.
> 
> @EltonFrog I upload footage online to a special portal run by Avon & Somerset police. Not sure what might be available in your area though. It doesn't take very long to do.


When I was asked by the Police what I wanted to do it was when I was in the A&E dept whilst still in a state of shock. I was not updated by the police it was the third party who told me about that he had to do the course. That was July 2002


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## Arjimlad (15 Mar 2020)

@Pale Rider My wife said that she wasn't all that surprised to hear that this person isn't a competent driver.


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## Bazzer (15 Mar 2020)

EltonFrog said:


> How does one report this sort of incident? Is it done online?


As @Arjimlad suggested, check your local police force's web site. It seems to vary from force to force; some have no portal, others appear to use a national portal, whilst others have their own.
The important thing, assuming you have access to a reporting site, is to get any incident reported ASAP. The police have a very limited time to act and some, (I'm looking at you Cheshire and Greater Manchester police), don't seem to act on reports during the weekend. So unless they are lucky, reports made (say) Thursday or Friday will get not get anything other than automated response until at least the following Monday or Tuesday.


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