# After a touring bike thats not just a tourer



## mish4444 (18 May 2011)

my friend an i are going to do our first tour at the begging of september we were planning on going from london -> Portsmouth -> Cherbourg down the west cost and along the top of spain and fly back from santander. we are after bikes up to the job but not only that we would like something that isnt just hybrid to cycle through out the rest of the season. We both own a hybrid that are defiantly not up to the job. what we were looking at is a bike you can fit paniers to that is very much a road bike with out them. is this something people would recommend. we have looked at what a shop called a winter trainer like a scott s55 or s50 or the daws audex range like the clubman.

any advice on bikes or general first time tours would be great

cheers


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## Brommyboy (18 May 2011)

An Audax bike is ideal for light touring, ie carrying little luggage; to carry more than light luggage you would need a proper touring cycle which is definitely NOT a hybrid! A touring cycle is also ideal for commuting and shopping, so is an all-round bike. There are not so many made these days as cycle dealers specialise in 'road' or 'off-road' bikes. Take a look at the Dawes Galaxy ( or Super G or Ultra G for more expensive models) or the Thorn Club or Expedition bikes.


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## Crackle (18 May 2011)

mish4444 said:


> my friend an i are going to do our first tour at the begging of september we were planning on going from london -> Portsmouth -> Cherbourg down the west cost and along the top of spain and fly back from santander. we are after bikes up to the job but not only that we would like something that isnt just hybrid to cycle through out the rest of the season. We both own a hybrid that are defiantly not up to the job. what we were looking at is a bike you can fit paniers to that is very much a road bike with out them. is this something people would recommend. we have looked at what a shop called a winter trainer like a scott s55 or s50 or the daws audex range like the clubman.
> 
> any advice on bikes or general first time tours would be great
> 
> cheers



The Clubman would do it and definetly fulfil the decent road bike criteria. There's a review of it's bigger brother on roadcc, written by one of our members. Spa cycles often have good offers on the Dawes range.

I have an earlier Dawes Audax and I will tour on that. I'd keep my kit light'ish and ride with a bit more feel but for occasional touring an Audax is ideal, especially if your primary need is for a roadbike first and tourer 2nd. In fact an Audax is a good allround bike. If I had to have just one road bike it would be an Audax bike.


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## aberal (18 May 2011)

It really depends on whether you are taking a tent/camping gear with you. If you are, then the only bike which will really handle that load in panniers is a full blown tourer. If you are staying in B&B's youth hostels and the like then it is less critical and Audax or even some cyclo cross bikes e.g. - Crox de Fer will do the business and be great for training rides/commuting etc.


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## Davidc (18 May 2011)

What Crackle says is good, but I have one reservation. The gearing on Audax bikes is generally higher than on touring bikes. That's fine if you're fit and strong, and many years ago I did what Crackle says - used what is now called an Audax bike for touring, and I didn't keep it particularly light.

One thing I never did when using the lighter bike for touring was to put front panniers on it - the forks just weren't specified for that, and it would still be an issue to be careful of.

Once I got into my mid forties I found that for any touring I had to put lower gears on the bike, the strength to push a load uphill at low cadence just wasn't there any more. I also had a heavier built bike and did put front panniers on it. (Now, in late fifties I need a proper granny gear but that's another issue).

Enjoy the tour. The west coast of France, from the Loire to Bearritz, was great for touring when I did it (40 years ago!) and probably still is. It's one tour I wish I'd repeated but didn't.


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## mish4444 (18 May 2011)

thanks for all the responses. I have just turn 20 and am not wonderfully fit bu i have been training a lot over the lst few weeks and getting there we are planning on cycling around 80 to 90 miles a day. and we were going to camp my friend is a big outdoors guy and have a really good two man tent that all pack ways just under 1.5kg and we are going to take that and camp. and we arent planning on taking anything more than a change of cycling clothes 2 small pots change of non cycling clothes ande a small stove with sleeping bags. as we are both students we have near enough perfected the one pot meal. Also being new to cycling and down at the bike shops does a bike with 24 gear differ in ratios to another bike with 24 gears?

thanks again for all the help.


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## jags (18 May 2011)

take a look a thorn's club tour these guys know how to build a bike, and it will do exactly what you want it to do.


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## vernon (18 May 2011)

mish4444 said:


> thanks for all the responses. I have just turn 20 and am not wonderfully fit bu i have been training a lot over the lst few weeks and getting there we are planning on cycling around 80 to 90 miles a day. and we were going to camp my friend is a big outdoors guy and have a really good two man tent that all pack ways just under 1.5kg and we are going to take that and camp. and we arent planning on taking anything more than a change of cycling clothes 2 small pots change of non cycling clothes ande a small stove with sleeping bags. as we are both students we have near enough perfected the one pot meal. Also being new to cycling and down at the bike shops does a bike with 24 gear differ in ratios to another bike with 24 gears?
> 
> thanks again for all the help.



The answer to your last question is yes.

It's not the number of gears that makes the difference but the number of teeth on the granny ring and the largest sprocket on the rear cassette that makes all the difference.

Quite a few road bikes will have a 30 tooth granny ring and a 26 tooth large rear sprocket.

This does not compete for ease of pedalling against a 24 tooth granny ring and a 34 tooth large rear sprocket.

You need to do some research on the bikes that you are considering. If you are young, light and fit then you'll probably get away with the first combination. If one of the afore mentioned properties is missing then consider the latter combination of gears.

To be honest, if your hybrid is half decent I'd explore the cost of kitting it out for touring.


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## aberal (18 May 2011)

vernon said:


> To be honest, if your hybrid is half decent I'd explore the cost of kitting it out for touring.



Me too. Apart from anything is else, half the fun happens when the bike breaks down in the rain, in the dark, 20 miles from camp.


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## vernon (18 May 2011)

There is a common misconception that a road bike or road bike style cycle is the bike to have for touring. Nothing could be further from the truth. On the continent a dropped barred touring bike normally indicates that the owner is British. Most other tourers are flat or butterfly barred hybrids, MTBs and sit up and beg styles bikes with the occasional recumbent thrown into the mix.

I was originally of the opinion that nothing other than a Dawes Galaxy or something similar would serve as a tourer for me. My opinion was formed by the Galaxy community and, to be fair, the Galaxy did it's job well until the frame snapped, twice. Once on a LEJOG and once in Orleans. In Orleans I purchased a Decathlon hybrid styled tourer and have used it for the past two and half years for touring and 60 mile day rides and found it to be as fast and as comfortable as the Galaxy ever was.

Too many people rubbish their own bikes with the misbegotten notion that significant expenditure on 'something better' will make life easier on the road. Your hybrid just might work out a lot cheaper if upgraded than buying a new bike.

On the other hand. Owning a new bike is a very nice feeling.


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## tbtb (19 May 2011)

You're probably lighter with all your gear (even camping gear if carefully chosen) than many of us are without anything, if you're young and thin. If this is the case, your major concerns with a road-bike-as-tourer might be gearing and comfort, rather than notions of the bike not being able to cope.

As well as bikes with a winter trainer tag, look out for ones saying Audax or Sportive as these are aimed at long day rides and so often have characteristics that might suit you.

I have a Genesis Aether for light camping touring. It can take 28mm tyres w/ mudguards - good for comfort on country roads (the mudguards help if I'm pedalling behind cattle too!). The angles of the frame are quite relaxed so it's not too jumpy to ride. The wheels have 32 spokes (more being better than fewer in touring spokeland). I flipped the stem so it's comfy for me. The bike weighs 20 or 21 lbs. Its only failing is the gearing. It uses a compact double chainset and so to get gears for mountain passes I had to buy a new derailleur, cassette, chain. I recommend you get a bike with a triple chainset to avoid this cost. Many models are available in both triple and double. 

You can get a rack onto most bikes by using p-clips. The thing is to make your load as light as possible to avoid mechanical issues and to get the advantage of the light bike. If you envisage touring with laptops and pots and pans, and a big tent, consider using the hybrids and getting some really racy bikes on your return.


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## samid (19 May 2011)

I don't want to pimp my own bike but just to give you an idea, my Riv (I was lucky to get it second hand for a reasonable sum a few years back) works quite well as a touring bike - while taking racks off turns it into a good enough road bike:




(I do like drop bar bikes)...


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## Kirstie (19 May 2011)

I would recommend a specialized tricross as an all rounder. My husband and also one of my female friends both have them. I've seen a tricross do light touring, fully loaded touring, proper CX off road and also act as a winter training bike without too much trouble. They are not the lightest, but they are extremely versatile and comfortable too.


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## david1701 (19 May 2011)

Kirstie said:


> I would recommend a specialized tricross as an all rounder. My husband and also one of my female friends both have them. I've seen a tricross do light touring, fully loaded touring, proper CX off road and also act as a winter training bike without too much trouble. They are not the lightest, but they are extremely versatile and comfortable too.



I'd be more helpful here, but I haven't been touring on mine yet, thats next year  It is light and fast and comfortable compared to a non road frame


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## mish4444 (19 May 2011)

they all look like great bikes thanks for all the help. The specialised looks like what i have been looking at and seems nice. unfortunately the only way to make my hybrid capable of touring is to replace everything on it as it is extremely budget belonged to my brother who bought it new for £200 and so has dodge gear breaks. I envisage us taking around 10KG of stuff at the very most as we really dont need a lot of kit most of that i think will be my camera to document everything. does anyone have any places they would stop at or add to the trip? 

also which airline is best for taking a bike on and what is the protocol take the panniers off and check them in and then bubble rap the frame?


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

I toured a lot in the mid 90's on a steel framed rigid forked spesh rockhopper mtb because it was all I had and I couldn't afford n+1 bikes. 

Bar ends, a wider saddle, a change of tyres, a rear rack, a front rack, 4 panniers and camping gear. It wasn't fast uphill but it went everywhere I pointed it and when unloaded, and sometimes when loaded, it was a genuine go-anywhere all terrain bike. Still in use locally by the guy I sold it too a couple of years ago.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

Kirstie said:


> I would recommend a specialized tricross as an all rounder. My husband and also one of my female friends both have them. I've seen a tricross do light touring, fully loaded touring, proper CX off road and also act as a winter training bike without too much trouble. They are not the lightest, but they are extremely versatile and comfortable too.




The spring cycling world has an account of a tour to the North Cape aboard a tricross.


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## Christkd (19 May 2011)

Me and a mate did LEJOG on specialized secteur comps and found them to be very comfortable and fast when needed! Another of our team was on a secteur elite which was also very good according to the rider!

Chris


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## Dave Davenport (19 May 2011)

Just a thought, but getting the ferry back would be a lot less hassle (and much nicer IMO) than flying.


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## tbtb (19 May 2011)

I agree re ferry, if the costs work. Much less effort and a great sense of travelling.


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## Zoiders (19 May 2011)

vernon said:


> There is a common misconception that a road bike or road bike style cycle is the bike to have for touring. Nothing could be further from the truth. On the continent a dropped barred touring bike normally indicates that the owner is British. Most other tourers are flat or butterfly barred hybrids, MTBs and sit up and beg styles bikes with the occasional recumbent thrown into the mix.
> 
> I was originally of the opinion that nothing other than a Dawes Galaxy or something similar would serve as a tourer for me. My opinion was formed by the Galaxy community and, to be fair, the Galaxy did it's job well until the frame snapped, twice. Once on a LEJOG and once in Orleans. In Orleans I purchased a Decathlon hybrid styled tourer and have used it for the past two and half years for touring and 60 mile day rides and found it to be as fast and as comfortable as the Galaxy ever was.
> 
> ...


This ^.

The lack of drops does not make a bike unsuitable for touring, hybrids (not flat barred road bikes) tend have all the same features as you will find on a bog standard tourer, braze on's, fairly relaxed geometry, high spoke count wheels, a welded plain gauge steel frame is also going to be easier to get fixed in a pinch as well than a lugged one.

Ignore the labels people put on each and every type of bike and look at what the frame will actualy do if you want it to.


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## andym (19 May 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Ignore the labels people put on each and every type of bike and look at what the frame will actualy do if you want it to.



There are lots of different marketing niches - which can simply be a cause for confusion. 

You can tour on just about any bike and nothing bad will happen to you, but if you are choosing a new bike (or at least new to you) the major issues really come down to:

- fixings for pannier racks (but you can get by without them)
- having sufficient clearance for bigger tyres (but you can tour with say 25mm tyres. I'd suggest making sure the chainstays are at least 415mm long;
- wheels. 28 or more spokes if poss.
- gearing - probably a triple chainset. Unless you are very fit you'll probably appreciate those extra gears every now and again.

Avoid a frame that's very light - or indeed one that's very heavy.

And that's pretty much it really.


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## tbtb (19 May 2011)

Colour is an issue too. My bike is white and I'm currently tussling with the issue of keeping it secure while I sleep in a tent in a campsite. Black would disappear nicely in the night. White may be more visible and so more likely to disappear not nicely!


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## Brandane (22 May 2011)

Kirstie said:


> I would recommend a specialized tricross as an all rounder. My husband and also one of my female friends both have them. I've seen a tricross do light touring, fully loaded touring, proper CX off road and also act as a winter training bike without too much trouble. They are not the lightest, but they are extremely versatile and comfortable too.



+1 for the Tricross! I find flat bars quite uncomfortable over any sort of distance. My Tricross now has a Brooks B17 saddle which helps with the comfort too. Only thing that might mark it down is it has carbon front forks, which might be an issue for some types of front racks (if you plan on fitting them). I bought mine in November 2009, since then it's done over 4000 miles including touring in France, the Way of the Roses, my first and only century, and as Kirstie says winter use, light off road work and general dogsbody are what it was built for .


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## bigjim (26 May 2011)

I have just returned from a 2 week 700+ mile tour on the Danube and up into the Czech Republic using this bike. Ali frame with carbon fork. I was B&B so weight was not too much. But also carried flight bag. However the ride from Munich to the Danube was very hilly and also leaving the Danube into Czech involved some mean climbs. I used P clips for the front of the rack. Standard Sora Double 14 speed. I changed the rear 23c tyre for a 25c cheap michelin. Much of the surfaces we encountered were rough with a fair amount of gravel. I weigh 14 stone. I had no problems with the bike.


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## mish4444 (26 May 2011)

I have just bought the Scott S55 waiting for it to arrive cant wait for it to arrive. its got a a panier rack aswell would you recomend larger tyres and what type for touring i dont eed one with much tred as will be almost entirely on roads?


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## tbtb (26 May 2011)

What tyres are on it just now, Mish?


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## Crackle (26 May 2011)

Nice bike Mish, not quite sure about it's touring credentials, you might find it a bit uncomfortable towards the end of the day but as has been said you can tour on any bike and I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy it's other qualities.

It comes with 25c tyres, if you're keeping it light, these will do and you might find you don't have the frame clearance to fit larger tyres on it. You could keep the same size tyre but buy one more suitable for touring with a good reputation for puncture resistance. There's a few tyre threads running which I recomend you have a quick search for, I'm not good on tyres. I run Schwalbe Blizzards and have never had a punture on them but I don't think they are a popular tyre.


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## tbtb (26 May 2011)

The 2011 s55 comes with 23mm tyres I think, Crackle - though I just looked at one shop listing so may be wrong. Googling the rim will provide info on how wide a tyre can be swapped in if desired.

One thing I did with my Aether to get relaxed tourer position is to flip the handlebar stem over. Then bought a shorter stem (£20 or so). That gave me 4 positions to try out. Good to know you're not stuck with how the bike arrives if it feels too "head down sporty". You could have the stem up for touring, down for racy use.


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## mish4444 (31 May 2011)

yeah the scott has got 23mm tyres but the are continental ultra sports which i have had terrible experiences with in the past. so i think i will be upgrading these to 25 or 28 schwalbe marathon plus. 


when it comes to backs what do you guys recommend? once again i will not be taking much will probably fit it into two rear paniers is this a good move? heard good things about saddle bags and bar bags instead? i have never cycled properly with either which combo gives least drag effort?
*
*


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## samid (31 May 2011)

If you can fit all your stuff in a saddle and a bar bag I would suggest that as a "sportier" way to go. And a bar bag is handy for often used items (camera etc).


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## willem (31 May 2011)

Avoid Marathon Plus on a bike like this. What is the point of getting a fast bike and then spoiling it with a slow and uncomfortable tyre?
W


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## mish4444 (31 May 2011)

willem what tyres would you recommend then?


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## jags (31 May 2011)

panaracer ribmo 700x28.


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## Headgardener (2 Jun 2011)

Should you decide to go for N+1 at some point I recomend the Dawes Horizion for touring.


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## willem (4 Jun 2011)

For a fast and light tour I would fit the Panaracer Pasela TG, in the widest possible size that will fit your frame. Use Schwalbe extralight inner tubes.

Willem


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## Yellow7 (4 Jun 2011)

oh come on, extra light inner tubes are gonna make a noticable difference?! 

How about pumping the tubes up with helium and wearing flip-flops instead of shoes, that should loose another few grams...

Mark.


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## MacB (4 Jun 2011)

Yellow7 said:


> oh come on, extra light inner tubes are gonna make a noticable difference?!
> 
> How about pumping the tubes up with helium and wearing flip-flops instead of shoes, that should loose another few grams...
> 
> Mark.



I think it's about 45g per tube, 105g versus 150g, in the touring 700x28 to 700x45ish bracket and they are about double the price of the regular tubes. So there is a distinct weight saving, whether the 90g is worth the extra money is down to the individual.

I wouldn't bother


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## tbtb (4 Jun 2011)

Yellow7 said:


> How about pumping the tubes up with helium and wearing flip-flops instead of shoes, that should loose another few grams...


Good ideas re the flip flops and helium but it's not just about weight.

You'll notice that Willem's suggesting wider rather than narrower tyres - wider tyres are heavier, not lighter, but are argued by some to be easier rolling. It's all about the rolling resistance. When he mentions light inner tubes, it's about rolling resistance primarily, I believe, not weight.


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## Yellow7 (4 Jun 2011)

tbtb said:


> Good ideas re the flip flops and helium but it's not just about weight.
> 
> You'll notice that Willem's suggesting wider rather than narrower tyres - wider tyres are heavier, not lighter, but are argued by some to be easier rolling. It's all about the rolling resistance. When he mentions light inner tubes, it's about rolling resistance primarily, I believe, not weight.




But it's the tyres that are in contact with the road, not the tubes, so tubes being lightweight or not would not affect the rolling resistance.

Mark.


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## willem (4 Jun 2011)

It is both about weight and about flexibility. Weight saving is some 50-100 gram per tyre, depending on the size (it is 95 grams in 26x2.0). On longer and more remote trips I always take two spares, so in my case it is 4x95 grams = 380 grams. The greater flexibility is what reduces rolling resistance. The difference is measurable. It is the same as with the tyres themselves: stiff casings are what slows you down. The weight reduction comes form tighter production tolerances rather than from more fragility. Even the xxlight have been very reliable in my experience, including rough trips such as loaded off road touring in Norway. Whether you want to bother is entirely up to you, of course.
Willem


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## MacB (4 Jun 2011)

willem said:


> It is both about weight and about flexibility. Weight saving is some 50-100 gram per tyre, depending on the size (it is 95 grams in 26x2.0). On longer and more remote trips I always take two spares, so in my case it is 4x95 grams = 380 grams. The greater flexibility is what reduces rolling resistance. The difference is measurable. It is the same as with the tyres themselves: stiff casings are what slows you down. The weight reduction comes form tighter production tolerances rather than from more fragility. Even the xxlight have been very reliable in my experience, including rough trips such as loaded off road touring in Norway. Whether you want to bother is entirely up to you, of course.
> Willem



Interesting Willem, I always read your posts with pleasure as they are well written and informative. I hadn't considered the increased flexibility and can understand how that would make a difference. As to the additional weight when multiplied by 4, yep that's another valid point. For touring I might be tempted to go with the lighter options as the additional expense would be small scale compared to the rest of the trip. 

On the flexibility bit would you also opt for folding as opposed to rigid tyres? If so do you also carry a spare folding tyre and have you found you can fit it immediately or do you have to leave it unfolded for a while first?


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## HelenD123 (4 Jun 2011)

MacB said:


> On the flexibility bit would you also opt for folding as opposed to rigid tyres? If so do you also carry a spare folding tyre and have you found you can fit it immediately or do you have to leave it unfolded for a while first?



I've seen a folding tyre fitted from the pannier straight onto the bike.


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## willem (4 Jun 2011)

Thanks for that response. As for folding tyres, I don't think there should be a difference, as it is the bead that is different rather than the sidewall. However, I have seen some tests where the one or the other was actually faster. The conclusion in those cases was that the tyres were also different in other respects. I sometimes take a spare, and sometimes I don't. Last summer I was cycling in Norway with a bunch of friends. I had fitted brand new Extremes, and I calculated that they were unlikely to fail, and that if one did, I was with friends. When I ride with my wife and kids I normally take a spare, and I have needed one in the past. But then, 600 grams divided by four is rather less than divided by one. It is true that folding tyres are perhaps a bit easier to mount nicely if you leave them unfolded for an hour or so. However, if you do not have that time there is no real problem.

Willem


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## MacB (4 Jun 2011)

Thanks Helen and Willem, I have a couple of Marathon Supreme folders in 700x32 in the garage, they were on offer(so I couldn't resist  ) and they are my next planned tyre on my road/ish bike. But it'll probably be months, maybe even this time next year, before they get used, as the tyres on the bike already are new as well. I know about storing spare tyres in a cool dark place but would I be better to unfold or just leave them in their boxes? I'm leaning towards leaving them as that's how they'd sit in a shop/warehouse anyway. Then just unpack them a few days before I plan to fit them.


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## samid (5 Jun 2011)

I installed a pair of Marathon Supremes on my bike two weeks ago, they went straight from their boxes onto the rims, no problems whatsoever.


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