# Where are the Brit Bikes?



## Randochap (18 Apr 2009)

I figured this is the best place to start this thread, as it's the place new people come looking for advice on bikes.

I've been hanging around this forum for a bit now and I'm constantly amazed when anyone comes asking what kind of bike they should get, inevitably they are presented with links to online "shops" selling the usual bunch of US branded bikes (made in Taiwan, Vietnam, China, etc.).

Also, the last time I was in the UK, I noticed how many people were gallumphing around on the road on full-suspension MTBs. Where were all the beautiful road bikes of my youth?

I know that British bike manufacturing went south (or east) many years ago. Before everything moved to Japan in the '70s, the British bike industry was already cannibalizing itself (see the British Cycle Corporation, swept up in the Tube Investments merger of 1960). British builders actually tutored some of the Japanese builders.

Now, Japan is only left with the remnants of that boom -- such as the brilliant i-Cycle/Grand Bois builders.

The second thing I see (and I've belaboured the point endlessly) is that, at least here, there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of what a decent utility bicycle looks like and everyone thinks the cookie-cutter racer boy bikes offered up by the aforementioned brands are too cool for words, even when the user actually would be better served by a touring or utility bike.

So, anyway, why don't I hear more here about Roberts, Dave Yates, Bob Jackson, Mercian, Stephen Shand, et al.?

You may note that half my present in-use stable consists of Canadian-built bikes. I believe in supporting my country's bike industry.

I know that, say, Wolverhampton (my hometown) will probably never boast the bicycle industry it once did, but surely you'll agree that supporting your local builder where possible is a good thing?

I'm not saying there is no excuse to buy a foreign bike (my beautiful Bleriot frame was made in the big Taiwanese factory that spits out most frames these days -- regardless of the brand label), but surely, if you can afford it and you want your dream bike, why not shop locally? Some of these custom and semi-custom options are actually competitive with the dross offered en masse.

This CC member did, and the results prove beyond a doubt the UK still knows what a real bike looks like.


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## Black Sheep (18 Apr 2009)

my mountain bike is an On-One which is a british company, 

however i think they are actually built abroad 

my playbike was an Orange made in halifax 

my road bike is a 1960's carlton


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## col (18 Apr 2009)

Is Raleigh still british? Im not sure but would like to think it is.


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## Randochap (18 Apr 2009)

col said:


> Is Raleigh still british? Im not sure but would like to think it is.



Nope. Just another brand ... and now decidedly "department store quality."


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## col (18 Apr 2009)

Randochap said:


> Nope. Just another brand ... and now decidedly "department store quality."




Pity, would have been nice if it was.


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## Randochap (18 Apr 2009)

A bit of Raleigh history.


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## col (18 Apr 2009)

Interesting link thanks.


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## Baggy (19 Apr 2009)

A lot of people who are looking for their dream bike do go down the custom build route, and will buy in the UK from Roberts et al. The problem is that there just aren't that many local builders left in the UK - although they do seem to be fighting back a bit more these days as steel is becoming more popular again.

People who look in beginners aren't necessarily looking for their dream bike though. When people are starting out or getting back into cycling after a long break they usually want something that won't cost a fortune, can be ridden away without waiting and will do the job until they decide whether they really enjoy cycling again.

That's the position I was in six years ago. My local bike shop tried to persuade me a hybrid was the way to go, but I wanted a drop barred bike that was practical (like my old Carlton). I ended up with a Dawes touring bike, which was perfect for me at the time (although not exactly British). People who sell bikes often have no idea of what a utility or practical bike is, which is why hybrids are so popular. MTBs are also popular because the cheap ones are cheaper than cheap road bikes and you can buy them everywhere. Drop bars also seem to scare people off. 

Giant, Trek et al make the bikes that sell to mass markets - and the UK industry doesn't really have an industry that does that any more, though we do have some excellent builders if you want something special and are willing to wait a wee while. 

My second bike is a UK built frame, though not custom. Ended up with that because I wanted something a little more unusual, and I wanted it to be from the UK. If I ever have my dream bike, it will be from the UK, and hopefully from Robin Mather because he makes the most beautiful lugs.


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## Alembicbassman (19 Apr 2009)

Dave Marsh, who runs my LBS custom builds frames.

I have a Raleigh. Nicole Cook rode Raleighs to victory in many races, their HQ is still in Nottingham, England. Warranty registration is via their HQ, which I like better than via some importer as with Giant, Trek, Specialized et al...

Pashley still build in Stratford on Avon and supply Royal Mail with 15'000 delivery bikes. They also make the Moulton TSRs. Airnimal also build niche folders.


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## mickle (19 Apr 2009)

Raleigh are just an importer these days. At least Giant, Trek, Specialized et al import decent bikes.


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## amnesia (19 Apr 2009)

AFAIK Boardman is a British brand... presumably made in some far away land though :-/


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## youngoldbloke (19 Apr 2009)

Quoting Randochaps' OP:_
Also, the last time I was in the UK, I noticed how many people were gallumphing around on the road on full-suspension MTBs. Where were all the beautiful road bikes of my youth?
_
Where are all the _road_ bikes? - drop bar or flat - or hybrids? I took a ride along the Bristol Bath cycle path last weekend, and on that bank holiday afternoon, of the 100s of bikes that passed I saw only half a dozen or so 'proper' road bikes (like my own!), and not many more flat bars or hybrids. The vast majority appeared to be 'MTBs' , mostly of the BSO variety, their nobbly tyres slopping and slurping along the well paved trail. While it is commendable that so many were out enjoying the spring afternoon on their bikes I couldn't help feeling most would have been getting a lot more out of the experience if they had been riding something a bit more appropriate. Why is the heavy, knobbly clad MTB the bike of choice for the vast majority? Is it just a triumph of marketing?


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## Ant (19 Apr 2009)

I just got my custom built 'British' bike a few weeks ago from here http://www.kinetic-one.co.uk/ and couldn't be more pleased.

However, as Baggy said, you don't really know about these sort of places until you've gotten in to it a bit and taken more of an interest.

The bicycle business has gone the exact same way virtually every other business has gone. 30 odd years ago all the shops and stores in a town would be small unique privately owned businesses. Now it's all large corporation brand names for everything. The cloning of the British high street began a long time ago and bicycle shops weren't any more immune to it that any other business.

Of course you could argue that there's no such thing as a British bike anyway. How many of the components that make up the bike are actually made here? British 'assembled' bike is probably the best you can hope for.


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## dodgy (19 Apr 2009)

Dolan bikes? I know that some of the frames are made in Taiwan, but aren't some of them made in the UK, too?


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## bonj2 (19 Apr 2009)

One of the reasons people 'gallumph' around (or whatever the term was) on 'full suspension MTBs' is they are cheap, and less of a disaster if it got nicked.

Now, that may be because they can't be bothered to take the necessary security precautions, or because with their busy lives they want to just abandon it somewhere and take off into a shop or whatever. But I think fear of theft is a large reason.

FWIW, I'm not in the market for a new 'best' bike, but I think if I was I would seriously consider going down the custom-made-in-england route. And also FWIW I do also have a raleigh.


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## TimP (19 Apr 2009)

Considers the contents of our garage -

Thorn
Roberts
On-One
Windcheetah
Claud Butler
Saracen

Some of those are completely built in the UK, from bits of metal pipe, others are assembled and Saracen is I think still a UK brand, albeit the bike was built in Eastern Europe.

The other machines in the garage can't really claim any UK heritage.


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## gavintc (19 Apr 2009)

Rando your post makes interesting reading. IMO, British bikes have suffered like its motor industry with a failure to move with the times. The short list of bike makers are lost in the steel generation and have failed to move forward to accept change and innovate to keep up. Alu and more latterly carbon dominates the market. As dodgy has proposed Dolan is a good example. There are others; Ribble, Planet X and Kinesis.


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## bonj2 (19 Apr 2009)

gavintc said:


> Rando your post makes interesting reading. IMO, British bikes have suffered like its motor industry with a failure to move with the times. The short list of bike makers are lost in the steel generation and have failed to move forward to accept change and innovate to keep up. Alu and more latterly carbon dominates the market. As dodgy has proposed Dolan is a good example. *There are others; Ribble, Planet X and Kinesis*.



they don't actually build the frames in england though do they?


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## gavintc (19 Apr 2009)

No, but neither does Giant, Spec etc. The carbon industry is Taiwanese. Short list produced by Rando seems stuck in the 50's and seems resolutely unable or unwilling to move forward. You can still value add, by designing a carbon frame getting it tooled and manufactured in Taiwan and make money selling the product. Look at Cervelo a new and innovative company, pushing forward with carbon design, None of their frames (to my knowledge) are actually made in Canada.


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## bonj2 (19 Apr 2009)

I think a lot of the time when people buy a bike they don't _think_ where it's built, or necessarily care.
I think the quintessential 'all british' bike today is one that's hand built to custom spec from steel by an expert framebuilder. You visit his premises, do a fitting session with him, imbibe his 'master craftsman' surroundings, probably have a natter about bikes in general, and possibly even watch him at work - all this probably instills a certain pride in the finished bike permanently, and I think this nobility is a worthwhile USP but also probably a fairly attractive one if it can be publicized enough, that it'd be nice to see more people made aware of/sold to.


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## Alembicbassman (19 Apr 2009)

mickle said:


> Raleigh are just an importer these days. At least Giant, Trek, Specialized et al import decent bikes.



You'll find many more posts of 'customer disatisfaction' regarding the big name bikes on this forum than for Raleigh.

Essentially you're buying a few aluminium tubes welded together or a few carbon tubes glued together (monocoque excepted). There's minor differences in geometery for best fit for an individual rider.

All are computer designed and CNC manufactured to conform to stafety standards (BS EN 14764). Most frames carry at least 5 years warranty against defects (not abuse) some have lifetime warranties.

All the components are identical, Shimano, Truvative, SRAM, FSA, Campagnolo etc...

I'd rather have my 105 kitted Raleigh than a Sora/2200 Giant/Trek/Spesh.

'Decent Bike' is subjective, one bad experience with any manufacturer can put you off their products forever.

So far I've done over 500 miles on my U6 Pro since March and no problems to report.


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## trsleigh (19 Apr 2009)

Manufactured two miles fom my front door, lets hear it for BROMPTON of Brentford.


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## gavintc (19 Apr 2009)

They serve a specific purpose, but they are supremely ugly.


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## Steve Austin (19 Apr 2009)

I ride a Dialled Bikes Love Hate which is a British Company, but they're not made in the UK, but then again what is?


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## palinurus (19 Apr 2009)

I tend to buy what my LBS has in, which is Specialized and Trek. I've bought bikes in London before but I do prefer some local support where I can be at the shop with the bike inside of two minutes (it really is local for me).

I once bought a 'cross frame and had it built up at the LBS, so I might go down that route for my next road bike and get something a little different from the stuff the large manufacturers offer.

Only british bike I've had recently was a Brompton. Does Airnimal count? I had one of those too.


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## Auntie Helen (19 Apr 2009)

I ride an ICE Trice that is designed and built in the UK.


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## fossyant (19 Apr 2009)

My best bike was built about 2 miles from where I live. The Ribble, about 60 miles (it's a steel one built by Terry Dolan).

TBH most UK built bikes aren't cheap - folk much prefer 'off the peg' these days. If you wanted a 'good bike' before the mid 90's, you'd generally go custom, or off peg handbuilt..... the market's changed. There are plenty of bike builders about, but they are 'expensive' - not something you'd usually point a beginner at.


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## Randochap (19 Apr 2009)

Ant hits the nail on the head, and it isn't just the UK that suffers from this unpleasant side-effect of "globalization."

As for the fact that "British bikes" use the same components as all others so there isn't a true Brit bike; that's a bit disingenuous. 

When I was drooling over the bright red Hetchins leaned against the bike shed at my high school in Wednesfield, in 1964, it sported a Campagnolo gruppo. (And, incedentally, I still buy Campagnolo -- so this supports the theory that excellence is a powerful branding tool).

My Canadian-built Marinoni was built by a French-Canadian welder at a company established by an ex-pat Italian. It has the aforementioned Italian components.

But this does add an interesting "component" to the discussion. Why shouldn't/couldn't the UK produce some good bicycle components that at least occupy a solid place in the niche market? Has it been so long since British manufacturing collapsed that there are no good machinists around?

I own several of the US brands of hubs, including Phil Wood and White Industries. These are absolutely beautiful! I also have Chris King headsets on 2 of my bikes. I own a pair of Phil hubs that I used for 20+ years. The new ones incl. cassette R hub that can be disassembled w/ 2 5mm allen wrenches.

The UK meanwhile hasn't to my knowledge built a derailleur since Benelux (originally a French-English collaboration) and Sturmy-Archer is in Taiwan.

Brooks, cast adrift when parent Sturmey-Archer collapsed, was gobbled up by Selle Royal.

Why is this? At the risk of being provocative, did the highly centralized/unionized (no, I'm not anti-union) factory culture of the UK discourage innovation and individual enterprise?

I'm imagining here one of those little derelict factory buildings springing to life as a high bling-factor producer of bicycle components. Put those on yer bike and ride it.

Lastly (for now) the problem in all constituencies is the cost of producing a bike for Everyman in today's market. "Stuck in the 50s" isn't an issue when it comes to this sort of machine. I have been pondering the question: How does one produce a practical bike today -- for, say, around £250-500?

Raleigh was indeed the British flagship. Too bad it sank.


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## dodgy (19 Apr 2009)

Randochap said:


> But this does add an interesting "component" to the discussion. Why shouldn't/couldn't the UK produce some good bicycle components that at least occupy a solid place in the niche market? Has it been so long since British manufacturing collapsed that there are no good machinists around?
> 
> I own several of the US brands of hubs, including Phil Wood and White Industries. These are absolutely beautiful! I also have Chris King headsets on 2 of my bikes. I own a pair of Phil hubs that I used for 20+ years. The new ones incl. cassette R hub that can be disassembled w/ 2 5mm allen wrenches.



Ahem - http://www.hopegb.com/


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## jayce (19 Apr 2009)

I got told that my dolan is british built ,but i dont know so is it ?


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## dodgy (19 Apr 2009)

jayce said:


> I got told that my dolan is british built ,but i dont know so is it ?



Many of the dealers will tell you that if that's what you want to hear. My Dolan is from Taiwan.


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## gavintc (19 Apr 2009)

I would say - depends on how you describe British. I would guarantee that if you have a carbon Dolan, that the actual manufacture of the frame was in Taiwan, but the design and development was from a British team. So, if you are content to know that it was conceived in Britain then you can relax.


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## Randochap (19 Apr 2009)

dodgy said:


> Ahem - http://www.hopegb.com/



Ah, yes. Me bad! I should've remembered Hope ... but not too tuned to the MTB scene. Some of my MTB riding colleagues at the last shop I worked at used Hope brakes. I'll have to get their assessment.


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## bonj2 (19 Apr 2009)

hope also make the Pro 3 - a road wheel/(or just hub - not sure if the rim is also hope).


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## Randochap (19 Apr 2009)

Word from my MTB colleagues is very positive on Hope gear. They're especially impressed with the new lightweight brake rotor that attaches w/ chainring bolts or something.


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## snorri (19 Apr 2009)

youngoldbloke said:


> Why is the heavy, knobbly clad MTB the bike of choice for the vast majority? Is it just a triumph of marketing?


I think people believe a mountain bike is built for climbing mountains, so minimal effort will be required in order to carry them around the flat roads in their locality. There has also been a marketing triumph in the clothing that would be cyclists have been convinced is essential for a short run around town on a bike.


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## oxford_guy (20 Apr 2009)

It depends what you mean by "British" - for example my bike (a Hewitt Cheviot SE tourer) is on the surface is "British", though the frame is built in Taiwan, the derailleurs (and rear hub, cranks, chain, chainset and cassette) and brakes are Japanese (Shimano and Tektro respectively), the gear shifters/brake levers Italian (Campagnalo), as is the saddle (San Marco), the headset American (Cane Creek), the rack (Tubus), hub dynamo (schmidt), lights (Busch & Müller) and panniers (Vaude) are German...

Of course it was put together (with much care) in Britain by Paul Hewitt and the paint job was done here too, but the bike itself is "international" really.


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## summerdays (20 Apr 2009)

The idea of a beginner going to a frame builder I think is very unlikely. I would like to go down that route at some point but at this stage don't feel I have rode enough bikes to have fully developed an idea of what I want. 

Beginners already feel like a kid in a sweetie shop ... so many to choose from. The place most beginners might see a bike in a shop is also going to be the supermarket, toy shop or motor store. If they impulse buy they end up with a (BSO) mountain bike as that is mostly what they stock - or a BMX type bike.


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## Randochap (20 Apr 2009)

summerdays said:


> The place most beginners might see a bike in a shop is also going to be the supermarket, toy shop or motor store. If they impulse buy they end up with a (BSO) mountain bike as that is mostly what they stock - or a BMX type bike.



If that's the case, then we may be closing in on the reason for the dearth of proper road bikes on UK roads.

There was a similar issue here for a couple of decades, when shops stocked mountain bikes to the exclusion of all other designs, but recently there has been an explosion of road bikes and hybrids, cruisers, "comfort" bikes, etc.

Any decent shop will now have a selection of all kinds, unless they've decided to specialize in one area.

There are still enough MTBs out there however (I mean, Canada is still one of the world capitals of mountain biking) only used on road, so we sell a lot of 26" slicks!

I didn't poke my head in too many bike stores in the UK in '07, but maybe you can report/concur here what most shops stock.


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## mickle (20 Apr 2009)

Alembicbassman said:


> You'll find many more posts of 'customer disatisfaction' regarding the big name bikes on this forum than for Raleigh.
> 
> Essentially you're buying a few aluminium tubes welded together or a few carbon tubes glued together (monocoque excepted). There's minor differences in geometery for best fit for an individual rider.
> 
> ...




Excuse me but that's utter bollocks, we have a large number of Raleighs finest and they are utter utter shoot. So shoot in fact that I'd rather scrap them than sell them to some poor unsuspecting sap who still thinks Raleigh are a decent brand. Honestly do you have a fricking clue? Have you ever actually parked a £x Raleigh next to its £x Giant to compare the spec? Giant, Trek, Spez et al are manufactured in Taiwan, easily the finest mass-produced bike producing nation on the planet. Raleighs are produced in whichever factory will spew them out at the lowest price; Indonesia, Singapore, wherever, and to hell with quality assurance. I know this to be a fact because it's my job to maintain the frickers. Abominations all, Sir Walter would be spinning in his grave.


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## mickle (20 Apr 2009)

Randochap said:


> Ant hits the nail on the head, and it isn't just the UK that suffers from this unpleasant side-effect of "globalization."
> 
> As for the fact that "British bikes" use the same components as all others so there isn't a true Brit bike; that's a bit disingenuous.
> 
> ...



Honestly who gives a sh!t? We're all happy to buy electronics, white goods, cuddly toys, motorbikes, cars etc from the far east. Why should we be precious about where we get our bikes from? The Taiwanese do a brilliant job producing bikes for us. Would I rather my hard earned went to Mrs Woo of Taiwan or Mr Bloggs of Nottingham? Mrs Woo actually, she needs it more and she works harder and produces a better product.


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## col (20 Apr 2009)

mickle said:


> Excuse me but that's utter bollocks, we have a large number of Raleighs finest and they are utter utter shoot. So shoot in fact that I'd rather scrap them than sell them to some poor unsuspecting sap who still thinks Raleigh are a decent brand. Honestly do you have a fricking clue? Have you ever actually parked a £x Raleigh next to its £x Giant to compare the spec? Giant, Trek, Spez et al are manufactured in Taiwan, easily the finest mass-produced bike producing nation on the planet. Raleighs are produced in whichever factory will spew them out at the lowest price; Indonesia, Singapore, wherever, and to hell with quality assurance. I know this to be a fact because it's my job to maintain the frickers. Abominations all, Sir Walter would be spinning in his grave.




I dont doubt your knowledge in this area, but did find it disheartening for just a second, as Im very happy with my raleigh. Now I dont know if its just my expectations are not as high or that my largest outlay in the passed has been about £200, but my Royal is very comfortable, smooth in rolling and gear selection, and feels very right to me. Longevity is yet to be seen as Iv only done about 100 miles on it as yet, but it seems like it will pass that test too, as everything about it feels good.
The quality seems good to me also, but then Im not an expert, it just seems that way, with looks and feel. Im guessing that my feelings about it are relative, as it is the best bike I have had in all my years with bikes, and am very happy with it, it just seemed harsh and a shock to read your comments on Raliegh in general, and wonder if this is just for certain models, or most or are there exceptions?
I can understand different likes and dislikes, everyone has a different bias to something, but wonder what can be that bad in raleigh?


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## mickle (20 Apr 2009)

gavintc said:


> I would say - depends on how you describe British. I would guarantee that if you have a carbon Dolan, that the actual manufacture of the frame was in Taiwan, but the design and development was from a British team. So, if you are content to know that it was conceived in Britain then you can relax.



Not. Dolan carbon frames are neither conceived nor developed in the UK. The Taiwanese have done all the work and they should be acknowledged for doing so.


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## gavintc (20 Apr 2009)

Well that has exploded that myth. I always thought of Dolan as a good British bike. Thanks for your insider view.


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## mickle (20 Apr 2009)

col said:


> I dont doubt your knowledge in this area, but did find it disheartening for just a second, as Im very happy with my raleigh. Now I dont know if its just my expectations are not as high or that my largest outlay in the passed has been about £200, but my Royal is very comfortable, smooth in rolling and gear selection, and feels very right to me. Longevity is yet to be seen as Iv only done about 100 miles on it as yet, but it seems like it will pass that test too, as everything about it feels good.
> The quality seems good to me also, but then Im not an expert, it just seems that way, with looks and feel. Im guessing that my feelings about it are relative, as it is the best bike I have had in all my years with bikes, and am very happy with it, it just seemed harsh and a shock to read your comments on Raliegh in general, and wonder if this is just for certain models, or most or are there exceptions?
> I can understand different likes and dislikes, everyone has a different bias to something, but wonder what can be that bad in raleigh?



To be fair they have improved their quality control this year but those who still hold Raleigh in high esteem are living in the dim and distant past. They have been living off their reputation for years. Some of their bikes are ok and their VFM has improved but they're so effing 'corporate' and arrogant that Ill never ever see them in a good light. What they did to Sturmey workers will never be forgiven.


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## spandex (20 Apr 2009)

Col 
I do have to say I will be the one of the first to say that Mickle is wrong BUT I will hold my hands up and say that Mickles knowledge in this area is the best I have known and I think will ever know.


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## bonj2 (20 Apr 2009)

mickle said:


> Honestly who gives a sh!t? We're all happy to buy electronics, white goods, cuddly toys, motorbikes, cars etc from the far east. Why should we be precious about where we get our bikes from? The Taiwanese do a brilliant job producing bikes for us. Would I rather my hard earned went to Mrs Woo of Taiwan or Mr Bloggs of Nottingham? Mrs Woo actually, she needs it more and she works harder and produces a better product.



Because people in britain LIKE BRITAIN. It's not because of the fact that they've analyzed all the countries in the world and they have come to the rational conclusion that, yes, actually - Britain _is the best_. It's for the, justifiably unapologetic, bias that we favour it _because it's the country we live in_.
It's for the same reason that most english football fans will _generally_ tend to support england at football, and the scottish scotland, etc.
They don't cheer on brazil because actually, those brazilians do a damn fine job of kicking the ball into the net and why should we be precious about where we get our football from?

I can't speak for anybody else, but also, for me, personally - it's for the same reason that I couldn't give THAT much of a toss WHAT goes on abroad. News articles, TV programmes, books, etc. are immediately diminished to at most 50% the interest level they would have been otherwise if they are solely about something going off in some other country, than if they are in britain about somebody I can relate to.

People can't identify with Mrs Woo in a far off land with her weird life. She'd probably rather be out in the sun anyway, picking rice and mudpacking and living the simple life like she used to before she was rounded up and sent to a bike factory. Imagine it - one minute you're tending to the farm with all your lovely hand reared chickens fluttering around the place enjoying the sunshine, the next you're sitting on a production line being bollocked because some silly bit of carbon isn't in precisely the right place.


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## bonj2 (20 Apr 2009)

mickle said:


> To be fair they have improved their quality control this year but those who still hold Raleigh in high esteem are living in the dim and distant past. They have been living off their reputation for years. Some of their bikes are ok and their VFM has improved but they're so effing 'corporate' and arrogant that Ill never ever see them in a good light. What they did to Sturmey workers will never be forgiven.



sturmey archer produced hub gears, they should never be forgiven for that.


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## col (20 Apr 2009)

mickle said:


> To be fair they have improved their quality control this year but those who still hold Raleigh in high esteem are living in the dim and distant past. They have been living off their reputation for years. Some of their bikes are ok and their VFM has improved but they're so effing 'corporate' and arrogant that Ill never ever see them in a good light. What they did to Sturmey workers will never be forgiven.



I can see your point, but my knowledge is very limited when it comes to the nuts and bolts, and just go on feel and if it works for me, and going on it costing more than any other bike Iv had, hoped it would be good.



spandex said:


> Col
> I do have to say I will be the one of the first to say that Mickle is wrong BUT I will hold my hands up and say that Mickles knowledge in this area is the best I have known and I think will ever know.



I also have the feeling he knows his onions, thats why I asked the question, and I suppose was hoping he would answer the way he did for my own benefit.


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## spandex (21 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> sturmey archer produced hub gears, *they should never be forgiven for that.*


*
* 


You are right They should never be forgiven for that 

BECAUSE 

They will will be thanked for it.


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## Ant (21 Apr 2009)

Hub gears were the best thing ever if you were a 10 year old boy on a Raleigh in the 70s. 

They were absolutely bomb proof. You could spend the entire day riding around in the woods getting bits of foliage and small furry animals stuck in them and they just kept working. The only maintenance they ever needed was the occasional squirt of oil in when you could remember. You never had to adjust them, or clean them (much) they just kept on doing what they were supposed to do.

I think I must have had my first proper 'racer' for about a year before I bent the rear derailleur and had to replace it, it seemed to constantly need attention compared to my old Sturmey Archers.


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## mickle (21 Apr 2009)

I know a thing or two about shallots, but onions? Don't have a clue.


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## summerdays (21 Apr 2009)

Randochap said:


> If that's the case, then we may be closing in on the reason for the dearth of proper road bikes on UK roads.
> 
> There was a similar issue here for a couple of decades, when shops stocked mountain bikes to the exclusion of all other designs, but recently there has been an explosion of road bikes and hybrids, cruisers, "comfort" bikes, etc.
> 
> ...



I was talking about the person with very limited knowledge about bikes and how they might go about buying bikes. 

I was talking to friends recently who had just bought themselves bikes. But they couldn't even tell me the make, what sort of brakes they had etc, but they had bought them in the LBS in Chepstow (so at least they went to an LBS rather than a supermarket). They just went into the shop, explained they just wanted it for leisure riding and left it to the shop to guide them.

Equally I was talking to my brother in law at the weekend who could only name one bike shop near-ish to him. Bike shops are often tucked away from the main road or major shopping areas. You have to go looking for them rather than just stumble across them.

As to what any individual bike shop stock ... seems to depend on what brand allegiances they have and what presumably sells.



mickle said:


> I know a thing or two about shallots, but onions? Don't have a clue.



I can tell you this much ... they all taste yuk!


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## spandex (21 Apr 2009)

mickle said:


> I know a thing or two about shallots, but onions? Don't have a clue.




What about all the cooking lessons I gave you


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## Amanda P (21 Apr 2009)

No-one has mentioned Moulton.

Moultons of both flavours (Moulton Moultons and Pashley Moultons) have always been built and assembled in Britain (with, it's true Shimano or Campag or SRAM components). You can go to Bradford on Avon and watch the guys doing it. Both of them. (Actually I think there are four or five at BoA).

Moulton's latest incarnation combines the manufacture and marketing of both types of bike. 

Thoroughly British, in design and construction. Quirky and innovative, like all the best British stuff.


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## ChrisKH (21 Apr 2009)

Uncle Phil said:


> No-one has mentioned Moulton.
> 
> Moultons of both flavours (Moulton Moultons and Pashley Moultons) have always been built and assembled in Britain (with, it's true Shimano or Campag or SRAM components). You can go to Bradford on Avon and watch the guys doing it. Both of them. (Actually I think there are four or five at BoA).
> 
> ...



And expensive. 

But I do like 'em.

Not sure where Brompton's source their frames and parts (some from Far East surely) , but fairly certain they're assembled in the UK.


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## skwerl (21 Apr 2009)

Randochap said:


> Ah, yes. Me bad! I should've remembered Hope ... but not too tuned to the MTB scene. Some of my MTB riding colleagues at the last shop I worked at used Hope brakes. I'll have to get their assessment.




You also forgot Royce
http://www.genisysconsulting.co.uk/royce-uk/


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## skwerl (21 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> Because people in britain LIKE BRITAIN. It's not because of the fact that they've analyzed all the countries in the world and they have come to the rational conclusion that, yes, actually - Britain _is the best_. It's for the, justifiably unapologetic, bias that we favour it _because it's the country we live in_.
> It's for the same reason that most english football fans will _generally_ tend to support england at football, and the scottish scotland, etc.
> They don't cheer on brazil because actually, those brazilians do a damn fine job of kicking the ball into the net and why should we be precious about where we get our football from?
> 
> ...



yep. living hand to mouth in poverty with no knowledge of anything beyond the next hill, no healthcare or schooling and no chance of improving your lot. Sounds great. Apply your argument to the rest of us and we'd all still be digging around in the mud.


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## bonj2 (21 Apr 2009)

skwerl said:


> yep. living hand to mouth in poverty with no knowledge of anything beyond the next hill, no healthcare or schooling and no chance of improving your lot. Sounds great. Apply your argument to the rest of us and we'd all still be digging around in the mud.



The bike manufacturers don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts to give a better life to the workers in these far off eastern lands, they do it to make the same bike for a cheaper overhead than what they could in britain.


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## skwerl (21 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> The bike manufacturers don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts to give a better life to the workers in these far off eastern lands, they do it to make the same bike for a cheaper overhead than what they could in britain.



Correct. Do you think employers in the UK (or elsewhere) exist out of a philanthropic desire? No. They exist to turn a profit, which is why more and more production (for Western companies) is being off-shored to the East.
I'm fairly sure that the Taiwanese aren't forced to work for the likes of Giant. They're still free to roam the mudflats with their chickens if they so desire. Maybe they'd don't get paid what they should/could (who does?) but they are there by choice.


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## Landslide (21 Apr 2009)

ChrisKH said:


> Not sure where Brompton's source their frames and parts (some from Far East surely) , but fairly certain they're assembled in the UK.



Made in London. Apparently the MD there can tell which member of staff has built a frame just by looking at the brazing.


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## Randochap (21 Apr 2009)

Now we're getting somewhere. Carry on.


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## bonj2 (21 Apr 2009)

skwerl said:


> Correct. Do you think employers in the UK (or elsewhere) exist out of a philanthropic desire? No. They exist to turn a profit, which is why more and more production (for Western companies) is being off-shored to the East.
> I'm fairly sure that the Taiwanese aren't forced to work for the likes of Giant. They're still free to roam the mudflats with their chickens if they so desire. Maybe they'd don't get paid what they should/could (who does?) but they are there by choice.



no employers exist out of philanthropy, so it's a null argument either way.
i.e. the argument can't validly be used to support the idea of buying British, but it can't be used to explicitly support buying taiwanese either, as the employer will pay the market rate, which is largely dependent on what other jobs are around in that area which the workers could alternatively get if they so desired.

In other words, philanthropy argument isn't a valid argument against people's desire to buy british for the purely irrational, solely emotional, but entirely valid, reason that they _identify_ with people in britain, in a way that they don't with people from taiwan.

In other words, mickle's argument of supporting Mrs Woo is trying to be FAR TOO rational simply for rational's sake, when in fact the rationale behind it is basically just philanthropic - which going by my market rates argument applies no more to Mrs Woo than it does to Mr Bloggs of nottingham. So you might as well look to some other argument - given that it doesn't really matter to someone where their bike is made, they might as well therefore just support what they feel like supporting.


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## Watt-O (21 Apr 2009)

We appear to be suffering from short term memory loss here. When I was a kid (cotter pin days), a local bike builder may have provided a nice Reynolds 531 double butted frame with fancy lugs or lugless (as I preferred), but we couldn't wait to get hold Cinelli bars, Campag gears and Weimann 500s. I don't recall any decent British groupsets back then , as now. Guess we're just crap a mass production.


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## bonj2 (22 Apr 2009)

We're crap at mass production because intelligent people don't want to work in factories.
It may not be politically correct to say so, but in developing countries most people are not as intelligent as people are in britain.
You need somewhere where the (relatively) lower standard of education means there is a whole community of people who are quite content to work in a factory.
(Granted we do have a minimum wage here, but it is only set at a level the market will support - i.e. it only exists to prevent charlatans and chancers taking advantage.)
Maybe in such time when global levels of education are a sea change from what they are now, then there will be a lot more automation technology.


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## jimboalee (22 Apr 2009)

Phone Scott's Cycles in Hall Green, Birmingham; and ask them about their 'British' bike.


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## swee'pea99 (22 Apr 2009)

"It may not be politically correct to say so, but in developing countries most people are not as intelligent as people are in britain."
Nothing to do with political correctness - that's just nonsense.


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## bonj2 (22 Apr 2009)

swee said:


> It isn't - they don't have as much education as we do in this country. The stats speak for themselves - the school attendance rate is lower, the quality of education is lower. They're not _genetically_ less intelligent, they're just less educated.


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## swee'pea99 (22 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> It isn't - they don't have as much education as we do in this country. The stats speak for themselves - the school attendance rate is lower, the quality of education is lower. They're not _genetically_ less intelligent, they're just less educated.


But that's the point. You're confusing education with intelligence. They may be less educated (I say 'may' - even that is arguable), but that has absolutely buger all to do with comparative levels of intelligence, which is a totally different matter. 

(Indeed, without wishing to get into too much of a racial quagmire, comparing the achievement levels of, say, Asian against white kids in, say, US schools, might lead you to the conclusion that levels of _intelligence_ (as distinct from education) may well be significantly higher in places like Malaysia, Thailand and India than they are in the UK.)


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## gavintc (22 Apr 2009)

My last job was working with young men and women who had recently left school. Innate intelligence is there, but there is very low educational standard or competence. Our school system does not produce educated individuals.


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## asterix (22 Apr 2009)

Where are the Brit bikes? I have most of 'em:

2 Bromptons
1 British Eagle (1987, just been re-enamelled as part of its update)
1 Bob Jackson (1999, nearly as new, good load carrier, used for raid Pyrenean and other French tours Ellis Briggs did some important mods on it tho.)
1 Roberts (2003, awesomely comfortable and ergonomic, done some very hilly audaxes, now used in France)
1 Ellis Briggs (2009, used for Spring into the Dales, superb descender with sharp handling)


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## Randochap (22 Apr 2009)

asterix said:


> Where are the Brit bikes? I have most of 'em:
> 
> 2 Bromptons
> 1 British Eagle (1987, just been re-enamelled as part of its update)
> ...



Sounds like a nice stable.

Anyone got a classic Hetchins?


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## jimboalee (23 Apr 2009)

Got a Moulton 'Mini'.
Alas, it has a Sachs Torpedo coaster brake.


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## jimboalee (23 Apr 2009)

Got a Peugeot.
Alas, the frame tubes are British.


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## asterix (23 Apr 2009)

Must admit, one bike I'd love to have a go on would be the legendary Peugeot PX10.


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## bonj2 (23 Apr 2009)

swee said:


> educated[/i].


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## youngoldbloke (23 Apr 2009)

Watt-O said:


> We appear to be suffering from short term memory loss here. When I was a kid (cotter pin days), a local bike builder may have provided a nice Reynolds 531 double butted frame with fancy lugs or lugless (as I preferred), but we couldn't wait to get hold Cinelli bars, Campag gears and Weimann 500s. I don't recall any decent British groupsets back then , as now. Guess we're just crap a mass production.



I think you've got it spot on. My first 'proper' bike was built on a Stallard frame (remember them Randochap), but virtually everything on that frame - other than the Brooks saddle (and aren't Brooks now Italian owned?) was Italiian (mostly Campag) or French. Most of the other good bikes around were the same. Maybe _GB_ was the only UK maker of components that was considered otherwise. The British bicycle industry has gone the way of much of UK industry - motorcycles, cars, electronics etc, but there are still a number of independant frame makers out there, catering to a relatively small group of enthusiasts.


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## Amanda P (23 Apr 2009)

Are Orbit still going? Mrs Uncle Phil has an Orbit, boldly labelled "HANDBUILT IN SHEFFIELD". 

Of course, it has Taiwanese gears, French or Dutch rims, Swiss spokes, Italian handlebars....


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## swee'pea99 (23 Apr 2009)

bonj said:


> alright, to escape from the nitpicking of thedifference between education and intelligence, developed countries don't have much factory output because their population is more _educated_.


'nitpicking'? 

Your new revised position, by the by, is also a crock of BS.


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## Hont (23 Apr 2009)

TimP said:


> Saracen is I think still a UK brand, albeit the bike was built in Eastern Europe.


I have a Saracen road bike and it says "designed in Great Britain" on it. Clearly not built in the UK, though, otherwise they'd mention it.


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## Randochap (23 Apr 2009)

youngoldbloke said:


> My first 'proper' bike was built on a Stallard frame (remember them Randochap)



I sure do! I hung out at Percy's shop before I could see over the counter! Mick was my local hero. He put us kids through the paces on Friday night's, on the way to the Aldersley track, and gave me my first experience of suffering on the bike!

I dreamed of one day owning a Stallard custom frame.

Here's serendipity: A couple of years ago, our eldest club member, an octogenarian ex-pat from London, who had told me previously he once owned a Stallard, was culling his old Kodachromes, when came across something he thought would interest me: A photo of Mick Stallard he'd taken winning the cyclocross nationals in Calais, 1964.

I now have a scan of my childhood mentor taken the very year he became the toast of the town and my tormentor on the bike! Cool, huh?


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## Fab Foodie (23 Apr 2009)

I have a Holdsworth.
I have an Evans/Saracen 531 MTB
I owned a Nivachrome Omega
I have a British Eagle restoration project.

All British built.

I also have a Giant TCR1


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## asterix (23 Apr 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> I have a *British Eagle restoration project*.



Would that be a 'Touristique'? As mentioned above I have a 1987 British Eagle but it's being updated as well as renovated. Very pleasant bike to ride IMO. 

The new wheels (courtesy of Spa Cycles) are in place, tomorrow it gets the shifters, then the drive stuff; for the moment I'm sticking to the Stronglight double. No brakes yet, it had Modolo frog-leg style but I want something more adjustable. Tektro's won't do because the front clearance is too narrow so maybe Avids.


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## Fab Foodie (23 Apr 2009)

asterix said:


> Would that be a 'Touristique'? As mentioned above I have a 1987 British Eagle but it's being updated as well as renovated. Very pleasant bike to ride IMO.
> 
> The new wheels (courtesy of Spa Cycles) are in place, tomorrow it gets the shifters, then the drive stuff; for the moment I'm sticking to the Stronglight double. No brakes yet, it had Modolo frog-leg style but I want something more adjustable. Tektro's won't do because the front clearance is too narrow so maybe Avids.




Yep!
Needs re-spraying. There are a few around, andyoxon rides one.
Brakes are probably re-usable, drive-train needs complete replacing (I had to cut the cranks off!), will go with DT shifters, use winter wheels off TCR (CXP22's on Ultegra + Krylions), New Brooks, Look pedals yee-haa.
Nice Touristique restoration job here...

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17.1410


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## asterix (23 Apr 2009)

Thanks for the very interesting link. Lee has made a fantastic job of it! Mine will be plainer although Ellis Briggs have done me a fine re-paint as requested. I'm looking forward to the re-launch very soon!


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## Fab Foodie (23 Apr 2009)

asterix said:


> Thanks for the very interesting link. Lee has made a fantastic job of it! Mine will be plainer although Ellis Briggs have done me a fine re-paint as requested. I'm looking forward to the re-launch very soon!


I've never ridden mine, I hauled it away from the tip. It's kinda gunmetal coloured with knackered plastic stickers. I think I'll use Mercian, but go for something plain... (though |I might enquire about a LEE stylee job as well, it's good isn't it? Too many tourers/audaxy bikes are plainish, I might do something similar in another color, say light blue, who knows... It needs to go with my bright red Karrimor panniers.
Colour card!
http://www.merciancycles.co.uk/finishes.asp

Anybody got any good colour scheme suggestions?


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## Black Sheep (24 Apr 2009)

youngoldbloke said:


> Quoting Randochaps' OP:_
> Also, the last time I was in the UK, I noticed how many people were gallumphing around on the road on full-suspension MTBs. Where were all the beautiful road bikes of my youth?
> _
> Where are all the _road_ bikes? - drop bar or flat - or hybrids? I took a ride along the Bristol Bath cycle path last weekend, and on that bank holiday afternoon, of the 100s of bikes that passed I saw only half a dozen or so 'proper' road bikes (like my own!), and not many more flat bars or hybrids. The vast majority appeared to be 'MTBs' , mostly of the BSO variety,



biking about in coventry today, most of the bikes i saw were drop bar road bikes except for a couple of city bikes (almost a modern version of the ladies looped frame kind) 

was quite amusing overtaking them all


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## jay clock (24 Apr 2009)

The original posting seems to assume that anyone would like the aesthetics of the bikes he showed. I simply don't and am not going to spend a fortune on something like a Mercian which seems to be stylistic modelled on the horse drawn caravan in the Enid Blyton books. As an idea, compare this http://www.gypsyhorsesource.com/othersaleitems/wagon-7-medium.jpg 
with this 
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bikes/mercian-avt5.jpg 
for example . My tourer is a Koga Miyata World Traveller - just my preference in style and look, and it works well too. And if anyone tries the old "repairing steel frames in Timbuktoo" story, would you really want your super alloy special steel frame hacked about by an African blacksmith?


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## bonj2 (24 Apr 2009)

now you mention it i can see the similarity...it's all the swirly bits


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## asterix (24 Apr 2009)

jay clock said:


> The original posting seems to assume that anyone would like the aesthetics of the bikes he showed. I simply don't and am not going to spend a fortune on something like a Mercian which seems to be stylistic modelled on the horse drawn caravan in the Enid Blyton books. As an idea, compare this http://www.gypsyhorsesource.com/othersaleitems/wagon-7-medium.jpg
> with this
> http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bikes/mercian-avt5.jpg
> for example . My tourer is a Koga Miyata World Traveller - just my preference in style and look, and it works well too. And if anyone tries the old "repairing steel frames in Timbuktoo" story, would you really want your super alloy special steel frame hacked about by an African blacksmith?



Jayclock, you're being a bit of a politician here I think, picking out all the extremes of the argument in an attempt to rubbish it.

It's not a matter of fancy fretted lugs, in fact my steel Roberts is a lug-free compact frame and the others have simple modern lugs. I too, find fretted lugs a little over-stated! 

If you prefer your version of a tourer, I prefer mine:





not least because it can and has been repaired (replaced top tube) and modified with added/moved braze-ons but also because it is an elegant and tough bike.

To me the oversized tubes essential to give aluminium frames strength is unattractive and unnecessary when it is possible to get a steel frame better suited for the purpose. But that of course is _my _opinion.


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## mickle (24 Apr 2009)

I used to have a 1939 Hetchins with Vibrant rear/ fancy lugs and a 1952 Claude Butler Shortbase tandem, wish I'd never got rid of either now.


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