# Bike Innovations you don't need



## Blue Hills (1 Dec 2017)

1:

A water bottle with a light in it FFS


https://www.rosebikes.com/article/elite-candea-led-drinks-bottle/aid:2668898/fromtopoffers:1


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## dave r (1 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> 1:
> 
> A water bottle with a light in it FFS
> 
> ...



One question? why?


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## winjim (1 Dec 2017)

It's for hurling at drivers who claim not to have seen you.


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## Phaeton (1 Dec 2017)

dave r said:


> One question? why?


Is the question why would you want one, or why would you not want one? I see it possibly has an advantage of being an extra light which may have usefulness of being seen from the side, although I would never buy one.


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## Slick (1 Dec 2017)

I see your bottle.......

https://www.rosewholesale.com/cheap...Pm5pQ8ymDSO60zZpllRcI_i8cxgIjV-IaAgDZEALw_wcB


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## Phaeton (1 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> I see your bottle.......


Good that's the whole point


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## dave r (1 Dec 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Is the question why would you want one, or why would you not want one? I see it possibly has an advantage of being an extra light which may have usefulness of being seen from the side, although I would never buy one.



I think perhaps what is the point of this might have been a better response.


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## Slick (1 Dec 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Good that's the whole point


There's a whole other thread that suggests it matters not.


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## mjr (1 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> There's a whole other thread that suggests it matters not.


And what's more, I've even ridden with an illuminated bottle. Naff all difference AFAICT.


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## mjr (1 Dec 2017)

Anyway, if you hate it that much, file an ASA complaint alleging that the "increased safety" claim in the advert is unsubstantiated and see what happens.


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## Drago (1 Dec 2017)

Anything Bluetooth, wireless, or with "e" in the title.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (1 Dec 2017)

Total misuse of electricity. But if it was keeping your tea warm...


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## AndyRM (1 Dec 2017)

Tannus Tyres.

Not so much an innovation as a pointless step backwards.


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## Slick (1 Dec 2017)

mjr said:


> And what's more, I've even ridden with an illuminated bottle. Naff all difference AFAICT.


You never really know though. 

Just stirring the pot, sorry.


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## Threevok (1 Dec 2017)

Floating BBs


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## Colin_P (1 Dec 2017)

And why not have a water bottle with a light on it.

If you build it, they will come.

I'm on the lookout for a minature Christmas tree (with lights) for my bike if anyone knows where to get one.....


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## Cycleops (1 Dec 2017)

For leisure cyclists Di2 has got to be The biggest con perpetrated by so called cycling innovators as a whole and Shimano in particular.


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## Colin_P (1 Dec 2017)

As for innovations.

10 or 11 speed rear ends and first dumping triples for 'compacts' and then dumping compacts for a single cog up front. The masterstroke is whilst cost cutting and making things worse, less gear choice and more fragile, component makers have conned the bike buying public into thinking the opposite.


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## mjr (1 Dec 2017)

Colin_P said:


> I'm on the lookout for a minature Christmas tree (with lights) for my bike if anyone knows where to get one.....


I think Copenhagen Tiger had some last year, if you've a branch near you still. Other than that, look in the local bucket shops like QD.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Dec 2017)

Cycleops said:


> For leisure cyclists Di2 has got to be The biggest con perpetrated by so called cycling innovators as a whole and Shimano in particular.


It isn't a con, it's a choice.


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## Cycleops (1 Dec 2017)

Perhaps the wrong word but still an innovation you certainly don’t need.


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## Banjo (1 Dec 2017)

My water bottles have an added lights feature when I pee it back out it doesn't matter if I haven't seen a car all night at least two will illuminate me in the headlights full stream.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Dec 2017)

Cycleops said:


> Perhaps the wrong word but still an innovation you certainly don’t need.


You could apply that to any product development both in and out of cycling. Electronic is faster and easier to use, so it's a case of you pays your money...


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## Slick (1 Dec 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> You could apply that to any product development both in and out of cycling. Electronic is faster and easier to use, so it's a case of you pays your money...


How much faster and easier can it be? Not being obtuse, never even seen it let alone try it.


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## Cycleops (1 Dec 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> You could apply that to any product development both in and out of cycling. Electronic is faster and easier to use, so it's a case of you pays your money...


Like diesel cars perhaps?


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## jay clock (1 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> How much faster and easier can it be? Not being obtuse, never even seen it let alone try it.


Not much but my Di2 requires a hell of a lot less effort than my 105* (at the end of a long ride the 105 has knackered my hands). And in 4 years of Di2 the only problem was when I accidentally trapped/cut a cable under my tribar mount.

I would def go for Di2 on a decent bike, and I think it helps resale too.

*105 much worse than manual Ultegra


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## Slick (1 Dec 2017)

jay clock said:


> Not much but my Di2 requires a hell of a lot less effort than my 105* (at the end of a long ride the 105 has knackered my hands). And in 4 years of Di2 the only problem was when I accidentally trapped/cut a cable under my tribar mount.
> 
> I would def go for Di2 on a decent bike, and I think it helps resale too.
> 
> *105 much worse than manual Ultegra


Fair enough. Have you issues with your hands? I struggle a bit to get my head round the whole concept as even on a long ride my fingers and hands are about the only thing that isn't aching. Different strokes though.


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## jay clock (1 Dec 2017)

Colin_P said:


> As for innovations.
> 
> 10 or 11 speed rear ends and first dumping triples for 'compacts' and then dumping compacts for a single cog up front. The masterstroke is whilst cost cutting and making things worse, less gear choice and more fragile, component makers have conned the bike buying public into thinking the opposite.


I tend to agree about 10/11 speed. 9 was fine. A bit like Windows XP which they insisted on changing. As for compact versus triple, I am a crap climber and chunky but much happier with a compact.


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## jay clock (1 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> Fair enough. Have you issues with your hands? I struggle a bit to get my head round the whole concept as even on a long ride my fingers and hands are about the only thing that isn't aching. Different strokes though.


not particularly but the 105 has a very stiff lever movement of a few cm. As I say, noticeably harder than Ultegra.. The Di2 is effortless.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Dec 2017)

Slick said:


> How much faster and easier can it be? Not being obtuse, never even seen it let alone try it.


I've never used it either. But many cyclists, including an increasing number on Cycle Chat do and report positively so they must feel it gives an advantage. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, but that applies to anything you could name.


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## Kestevan (1 Dec 2017)

It's easy really..... 

Any technology developed before you were 20 is old fashioned and obsolete. 

Any technology developed after you are 40 is unnecessary, and overcomplicated.


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## Slick (1 Dec 2017)

Not all.


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## mjr (1 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Now, let me see ... Indexed gears. What a waste of time. Brifters - stupid word, stupid bodge, what was wrong with down tube shifters? And don't get me started on those bloody stupid fancy QR hubs. I mean what's the point? Freehubs, threadless headsets, more than 5 gears at the back ...


I resemble that remark!

Never had tired hands at the end of a ride. But I can understand why racers want the ability to change gears without taking their hands far from the brakes.


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## xzenonuk (1 Dec 2017)

shimano biopace..... had one on my trusty 80's bike and i do not miss it


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## HLaB (1 Dec 2017)

I was going to say indicators but I suppose they were only an innovation the first time the last zillion time have just been a rehash so I'm not sure they count


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## Blue Hills (2 Dec 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> I've never used it either. But many cyclists, including an increasing number on Cycle Chat do and report positively so they must feel it gives an advantage. e.


Cyclops did say LEISURE cyclists. Ie, in truth, if truth be told, the vast majority of us.


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## Cycleops (2 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Cyclops did say LEISURE cyclists. Ie, in truth, if truth be told, the vast majority of us.


I can understand it in the competitive world where every fraction of a second has to be taken advantage of but if you’re just out with your local CC trying to catch up with fit Fred it does seem rather pointless.


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## Blue Hills (2 Dec 2017)

Yes, agree totally. Pretty much anything, for even the tiniest advantage, makes sense in the competitive world.

If car drivers would only start fitting formula 1 bits to their cars en masse, oh how entertaining the roads would be 

Tho the highways agency might have to add pit stops to roads.


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## Siclo (2 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> If car drivers would only start fitting formula 1 bits to their cars en masse, oh how entertaining the roads would be
> .



What? Like turbo's, dual speed gearboxes, aerodynamics, active suspension, electronic engine mapping.
￼


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## SuperHans123 (2 Dec 2017)

Drop handelbars


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## jefmcg (2 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Cyclops did say LEISURE cyclists. Ie, in truth, if truth be told, the vast majority of us.


Well, I remember a few years ago (when Di2 was pretty rare noticing it on a bike at the start of a 600k audax. Spoke to the rider - late 60s, I'd guess , who had arthritis in his hands and without it wouldn't be able to ride such distances.

On the flip side, on the 2013 LEL, there was a rider who didn't bother to recharge the battery before the start, and ran out of juice!


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## Blue Hills (2 Dec 2017)

Yes of course there are special applications for everything.


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## Tim Hall (2 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Tho the highways agency might have to add pit stops to roads.


That must be where they got the idea for smart motorways, with their refuge lay bys. I fancy pulling in to one of them and getting a 10 second tyre change.


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## bpsmith (2 Dec 2017)

Tim Hall said:


> That must be where they got the idea for smart motorways, with their refuge lay bys. I fancy pulling in to one of them and getting a 10 second tyre change.


Then driving off with someone else picking up the tab too. Sounds bliss compared to spending hours in ATS whilst the only guy they have in decides who is next.


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## mustang1 (2 Dec 2017)

Cycleops said:


> For leisure cyclists Di2 has got to be The biggest con perpetrated by so called cycling innovators as a whole and Shimano in particular.


I think it's the other way round: it's the leisure cyclists who need e-gears and the pro teams should use mechanical. Why? Because pro cyclists have their bikes adjusted for them whereas leisure cyclists need to pay a mechanic. That reminds me, must place an order for one...


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## topcat1 (2 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> 1:
> 
> A water bottle with a light ffs



I have a bottle cage that lights up my water bottle, I find it amusing at 5am when I cycle to work. And I've 2 bikes with Di2


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## classic33 (4 Dec 2017)

Colin_P said:


> And why not have a water bottle with a light on it.
> 
> If you build it, they will come.
> 
> I'm on the lookout for a minature Christmas tree (with lights) for my bike if anyone knows where to get one.....


Wilkinsons/Wilco, battery powered.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Dec 2017)

mustang1 said:


> I think it's the other way round: it's the leisure cyclists who need e-gears and the pro teams should use mechanical. Why? Because pro cyclists have their bikes adjusted for them whereas leisure cyclists need to pay a mechanic. That reminds me, must place an order for one...



A lot of leisure cyclists are perfectly capable of doing their own maintenance, and plenty of people still service their own cars.
Given how weight-obsessed a lot of cyclists are, it seems really bizarre to add the weight and failure risk of a battery, just to avoid doing manual gear changes!. I'd suggest anyone who is unable to master gearchanging on whatever sort of vehicle they ride on or drive in, is not really cut out to be in control of any mechanically-propelled object in the first place.


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## bpsmith (4 Dec 2017)

So anyone driving an automatic car should be banned from driving then @SkipdiverJohn ?


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## jefmcg (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'd suggest anyone who is unable to master gearchanging on whatever sort of vehicle they ride on or drive in, is not really cut out to be in control of any mechanically-propelled object in the first place.


What a mean spirited sentence.

And nonsensical as mechanically propelled means "A motor vehicle driven by petrol, oil, steam, or electricity", so is irrelevant to a discussion of bikes.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Dec 2017)

I suppose Indexed gearing was designed to be essentially "idiot-proof" - and makes some sense on a mountain bike being used in anger where the rider is mainly concerned with staying on the bike. However, if you've ever noticed the number of cheap road-going MTB's with Shimano Indexed gears that are ridden along clattering and grinding, they are worse than friction shifters if maladjusted. If you don't set up indexed gears properly the changes don't align the chain correctly, whereas a friction shifter is infinitely adjustable to achieve silent operation. Friction changers need mechanically sympathetic riders though, who will actually notice the clattering chain and adjust the lever accordingly!.


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## Colin_P (4 Dec 2017)

Friction shifters are never worse, they just need to be used correctly to obtain blissful silence or at most a gentle whir of the cogs.

As Swiss Toni once said, "Riding a friction setup, is like being a pilot and also like making love to a beautiful woman; trim the flaps and make sure it all lines up until it purrs along."

I of course have no idea what that actually means.


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## r04DiE (4 Dec 2017)

Cycleops said:


> Perhaps the wrong word but still an innovation you certainly don’t need.


Well, you can say that about many things. I wanted to change my Garmin Edge 810 (has been working very well with only a couple of hiccups) for a Wahoo ELEMNT. I was discussing this with my wife and she asked "Do you really _need_ it (the ELEMNT)?" I said "No, I don't _need_ it, I _want it_, just the same way that you want to buy new clothes, or new shoes, new pictures for the walls or a thousand other things that we don't really _need_."


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## r04DiE (4 Dec 2017)

Drago said:


> Anything Bluetooth, wireless, or with "e" in the title.


Does this include wireless radios, envelopes, elastic and E=mc^2?


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Dec 2017)

A mechanical numpty rider who ignores maladjusted Indexed gears and just grinds along in ignorance with the chain misaligned halfway between cogs is no different to a mechanical numpty rider who doesn't use their friction shifters properly and achieves the same result. Both systems require proper adjustment, in one case when the bike is assembled, the other as an ongoing thing by the rider when in motion. Chain clatter on bikes is one of my pet hates though, I couldn't live with that racket everywhere I went. How so many cyclists do put up with it is beyond me. They must be deaf as well as stupid.


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## jefmcg (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> They must be deaf as well as stupid.


What is your problem??????


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## Phaeton (4 Dec 2017)

mustang1 said:


> a mechanic. That reminds me, must place an order for one...


Where do you buy mechanics?


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## Cycleops (4 Dec 2017)

r04DiE said:


> Well, you can say that about many things. I wanted to change my Garmin Edge 810 (has been working very well with only a couple of hiccups) for a Wahoo ELEMNT. I was discussing this with my wife and she asked "Do you really _need_ it (the ELEMNT)?" I said "No, I don't _need_ it, I _want it_, just the same way that you want to buy new clothes, or new shoes, new pictures for the walls or a thousand other things that we don't really _need_."


Yes, why do we do this, I guess to do with the consumer society we live in. Built in obsolescence, new gadgets coming along all the time. Changing fashions. Garmin was the greatest until Wahoo came along, now it’s decried almost universally.
The only answer may be to embrace minimalism for a simple life.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Dec 2017)

jefmcg said:


> What is your problem??????



I'd say stupid is a pretty accurate description of someone that will ride around perpetually on a maladjusted machine! Would you ride around with a flat tyre for a month without fixing it, or keep driving a car with grinding brakes until they fail totally? It's exactly the same thing.


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## Phaeton (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'd say stupid is a pretty accurate description of someone that will ride around perpetually on a maladjusted machine!


How do you know they are perpetually riding the bike around, do you use a TV, a computer, a smartphone, are you 100% conversant with all the working of those?


SkipdiverJohn said:


> Would you ride around with a flat tyre for a month without fixing it, or keep driving a car with grinding brakes until they fail totally? It's exactly the same thing.


I would disagree, it's more like a gearbox grinding wouldn't you agree, maybe one that has lost some oil, it still works not as efficiently & will shorten it's designed life.


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## jefmcg (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'd say stupid is a pretty accurate description of someone that will ride around perpetually on a maladjusted machine! Would you ride around with a flat tyre for a month without fixing it, or keep driving a car with grinding brakes until they fail totally? It's exactly the same thing.


You can't drive on a flat tyre for a month, it will be ripped to shreds in a kilometre or two. Grinding brakes could be unsafe. So completely different examples. 


Someone riding a couple of miles on a skip rescued SD special with grindy gears. That might make sense to them. They are probably not going to get to their destination any faster if they fix it, and it it's a cheap bike, it will go bad again. I don't have any problems if they don't care to fix it - and as for the noise? Where I live we have lots of cars, so the noisiest bike is quieter than almost anything else on the road. Do you live in the land of hybrids and Telsas?


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Dec 2017)

What's the point of headsets that don't have an expander bolt that allows infinite handlebar height adjustment with a simple allen key or spanner? The whole idea seems totally odd. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## r04DiE (4 Dec 2017)

Cycleops said:


> The only answer may be to embrace minimalism for a simple life.


I think you're right - its all just trinkets, little more...


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## r04DiE (4 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> And if I want a luminous water bottle, I'll damn well have one.


You're damn well right, too!


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## jefmcg (4 Dec 2017)

I dropped a water bottle on the A308 approaching Legoland at around 7pm in February. I wish it had a light in it


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## Tim Hall (4 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Ah - this is one for @Yellow Saddle Something to do with water ingress into the bearings, the top of the stem being unsupported and a long way from the attachment point, and so forth, propensity to seize inside the steerer. Engineering stuff. There's also the point that there are manufacturing benefits, as the steerers no longer have to be threaded, can be made of material other than steel, and cutting the steerer is left to the end user.
> 
> Me, I just think quill stems are prettier.


Adjusting the bearings on a threadless headset is done with just an Allen key. Adjusting the bearings on a quill stem needs two v big spanners.

I quite agree with you about the prettyness aspect.


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## Yellow Saddle (4 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Ah - this is one for @Yellow Saddle Something to do with water ingress into the bearings, the top of the stem being unsupported and a long way from the attachment point, and so forth, propensity to seize inside the steerer. Engineering stuff. There's also the point that there are manufacturing benefits, as the steerers no longer have to be threaded, can be made of material other than steel, and cutting the steerer is left to the end user.
> 
> Me, I just think quill stems are prettier.


https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-did-headsets-change-from-1-to-1-1-8.220129/#post-4851226


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## davidphilips (4 Dec 2017)

I was told my bike would be a lot better of without the old nut on the saddle?


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## Blue Hills (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Given how weight-obsessed a lot of cyclists are, it seems really bizarre to add the weight ...... of a battery, .



This is a great point  Next time you encounter an amateur TDF wanabee do please ask them about this. I can imagine their heads spinning as they try to compute the contradiction.


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## jefmcg (4 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> This is a great point  Next time you encounter an amateur TDF wanabee do please ask them about this. I can imagine their heads spinning as they try to compute the contradiction.


Oh, wow. It's 4kg. That's twice my ridiculously heavy U-lock.


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## r04DiE (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Given how weight-obsessed a lot of cyclists are


Weight is 80s, nobody cares about it so much anymore. Aero is the thing now.


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## Blue Hills (4 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Actually you could try asking a TdF actually-is rather than a wanna-be. I think the vast majority of the teams run DI2 with the remainder running Campag EPS or SRAM Etap, so they're all running electronic groupsets. Now, they are probably more concerned about weight than anyone. I don't think there is any contradiction as I think (but I'm quite happy for someone else to do the research as I can't be arsed) they weigh pretty much the same, the additional battery and servo weight being offset by reduction in weight of cabling and the mechanism inside the shifters.


I realise that the world class racers use it - understandable.


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## andrew_s (4 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Actually you could try asking a TdF actually-is rather than a wanna-be. ... Now, they are probably more concerned about weight than anyone.


They aren't very concerned about weight, because of the UCI minimum weight limit.
If they can't bring their bike up to the limit with power meters, video cameras and radios, they have to add lumps of lead.


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## jefmcg (4 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Good point.
> 
> Anyhoo, my point was the weight excess of the battery of an electronic unit is the square root of f-all.


Yup, and even if it wasn't - expensive kit on TdF trickles down to club riders. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bung involved to make sure they always have the most expensive groupset.


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## LeetleGreyCells (4 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Tho the highways agency might have to add pit stops to roads.



We used to have them on motorways before they became so-called _smart_. They were called hard shoulders....


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## Smokin Joe (4 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> A lot of leisure cyclists are perfectly capable of doing their own maintenance, and plenty of people still service their own cars.
> Given how weight-obsessed a lot of cyclists are, it seems really bizarre to add the weight and failure risk of a battery, just to avoid doing manual gear changes!. I'd suggest anyone who is unable to master gearchanging on whatever sort of vehicle they ride on or drive in, is not really cut out to be in control of any mechanically-propelled object in the first place.


I mastered friction (In about two minutes), indexing, and then brifters (Both on the first gear change I made on either system). I know how to strip my bike to the last nut and bolt, but I'd have electronic tomorrow if I were upgrading my bike or drive train. Certain people seem to be under the impression that there is something macho about using the most basic system going and sneering at anything new or anyone who uses it. I find that rather amusing. Each innovation on gears that I've experienced has made bicycles more pleasant to ride, I want to concentrate on turning the pedals and any necessary chore (Like changing gear) that can be made a bit easier is for me.


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## arch684 (4 Dec 2017)

The truth is we don't need any of these innovations but it's nice to have them


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## bpsmith (4 Dec 2017)

I would love to have SRAM Etap. The thought of never having to change a gear cable again, along with the simplicity of the gear change has a lot of appeal.

My mechanical Ultegra functions and sounds sweet as a nut btw. All done by my own hands. Still fancy Etap nonetheless.

I also like the idea of Di2 shifting up 2 sprockets when I shift down a chainring. That’s clever.

Finally, a minor one, but I also think having the gear you’re in shown on your Garmin appealing too. Not sure whether it stores this for your whole ride, but would be very cool to analyse. I’m sad like that, but not ashamed in the slightest.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Dec 2017)

r04DiE said:


> Weight is 80s, nobody cares about it so much anymore. Aero is the thing now.



If they were concerned about aero they would go recumbent. A road bike is about as aero as a 100kg brick the way most riders sit on them.


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## Tim Hall (4 Dec 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> If they were concerned about aero they would go recumbent. A road bike is about as aero as a 100kg brick the way most riders sit on them.


The UCI doesn't allow recumbents though.


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## mjr (5 Dec 2017)

bpsmith said:


> I would love to have SRAM Etap. The thought of never having to change a gear cable again, along with the simplicity of the gear change has a lot of appeal.
> 
> My mechanical Ultegra functions and sounds sweet as a nut btw. All done by my own hands. Still fancy Etap nonetheless.
> 
> ...


So Di2 is an electronic solution to two problems created by brifters? First that it's harder to shift rear and front simultaneously because you can't work both levers with one hand so it does that programmatically, and secondly that you can't just glance at the lever position to see which gear you're in, so it displays that on a bike computer.  So eventually, they might get to the point of fully replicating down tube shifter functionality...


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## Blue Hills (5 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> What we _*need*_ is electronic down tube shifters with gesture detection, Put your hand to the down tube and make a lever forward gesture and it will detect it and change up, and so on. For current gear setting it can project a hologram of a lever and move its position according to the currently selected gear, or perhaps augmented-reality goggles can include that.
> 
> I think I'm on to something, off to Crowdfunder I go.


Far too complicated.
And requires you to move your hands, thus taking more time and wasting calories that should be thrust straight into your sprint.
The obvious solution, with maybe different versions for men and women, is for riders to twitch their groin muscles.
These twitches will be picked up by new generation saddles which will transmit the signals to front and rear mechs. This would also allow lightweight signal cables to be fed through the frame.
Not only will it significantly improve cycling performance, and give neck and neck riders no warning of a competitor's gear shift and speed boost, but it will allow the price of saddles to be boosted still further.
After all, with careful selection, i can still quite easily find good saddles for £15 to £20.
And we can't be havin' that.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (5 Dec 2017)

Bikes for people faster than me that are made out of solid iron.

EDIT: Sorry - That's an innovation I do need!


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## Sixmile (5 Dec 2017)

I haven't read every post but did a quick skim and search but...

I've seen a bike brake light appearing on my FB feed over the last number of days. As usual, the comments beneath a public post regarding anything to do with cycling is entertainment on its own. Most, if not all the people who bought the brake light, have said how it has broken before even leaving the house and about how cheap and useless that it needs. What surprises me is that so many people seem to have purchased the thing before finding this out.


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## arch684 (5 Dec 2017)

Have all these innovations turned us all into softies? sti's/electronic shifting compact chain sets with dinner plate size cassettes carbon/light alloy frames and now we have e bikes.For over 20 years my only bike was a steel frame raleigh with 52/42 chain set and a 12/25 block,i don't remember having to walk up any hill


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## bpsmith (5 Dec 2017)

mjr said:


> So Di2 is an electronic solution to two problems created by brifters? First that it's harder to shift rear and front simultaneously because you can't work both levers with one hand so it does that programmatically, and secondly that you can't just glance at the lever position to see which gear you're in, so it displays that on a bike computer.  So eventually, they might get to the point of fully replicating down tube shifter functionality...


Did downtube shifting allow you t change front and back simultaneously with one hand then?

I can glance at the rear cassette and see just as easily as the downtube tbh. What I want to know is whether Di2 records the gear your in at every point of the ride. Downtube shifting never included that unless I am mistaken?


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## bpsmith (5 Dec 2017)

arch684 said:


> Have all these innovations turned us all into softies? sti's/electronic shifting compact chain sets with dinner plate size cassettes carbon/light alloy frames and now we have e bikes.For over 20 years my only bike was a steel frame raleigh with 52/42 chain set and a 12/25 block,i don't remember having to walk up any hill


Do you have a leather chamois too and rigid tyres?


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## ColinJ (5 Dec 2017)

arch684 said:


> Have all these innovations turned us all into softies? sti's/electronic shifting compact chain sets with dinner plate size cassettes carbon/light alloy frames and now we have e bikes.For over 20 years my only bike was a steel frame raleigh with 52/42 chain set and a 12/25 block,i don't remember having to walk up any hill









Maybe you are strong enough to enjoy riding up 25% slopes in a 42/25 gear but I'm not, so I'll stick to my 28/30, ta very much!


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## davidphilips (5 Dec 2017)

arch684 said:


> Have all these innovations turned us all into softies? sti's/electronic shifting compact chain sets with dinner plate size cassettes carbon/light alloy frames and now we have e bikes.For over 20 years my only bike was a steel frame raleigh with 52/42 chain set and a 12/25 block,i don't remember having to walk up any hill



Just back from a club ride and when on a coffee brake i took up the subject of Have all these innovations turned us all into softies? Any way most of the replies where of the nature of better bikes and faster speeds, LOL then i asked how many of us could cycle 872 miles in 2 days 11 hours and 7 minutes?

All the cyclists that i was with thought it could not be done and none of them would believe that a girl (Eileen Sheriden) done just that in 1954 on a hercules bike,
So dont know if everyone is a lot softer but both myself and my friends are not just up there with some of yesterdays cyclists even with there out of date bikes and kit.


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## Blue Hills (5 Dec 2017)

bpsmith said:


> Did downtube shifting allow you t change front and back simultaneously with one hand then?
> 
> I can glance at the rear cassette and see just as easily as the downtube tbh. What I want to know is whether Di2 records the gear your in at every point of the ride. Downtube shifting never included that unless I am mistaken?


Sorry, you worry me profoundly, unless you are a pro, for even wanting to post-ride analyse what gears you were in for every metre of your ride. Smell the roses, even the cow shoot.


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## Colin_P (5 Dec 2017)

arch684 said:


> Have all these innovations turned us all into softies? sti's/electronic shifting compact chain sets with dinner plate size cassettes carbon/light alloy frames and now we have e bikes.For over 20 years my only bike was a steel frame raleigh with 52/42 chain set and a 12/25 block,i don't remember having to walk up any hill



I was the same when I was young, on the flat I'd be in top and flying along on the 52/12 and the 42/24 always seemed low enough for any hill.

The problem is we get old and some of us suffer health issues. That is why I recently ditched the 52/42 and 12/24 for an mtb triple up front and a 11/34 at the back. The small one on the triple is a 22! Hills are do-able but can be slower than getting off and walking, but that is not the point for me. All done on an early 80's steel framed racer with downyube shifters. It works perfectly.


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## jefmcg (5 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> none of them would believe that a girl (Eileen Sheriden)


She was in her 30s. Try repeating after me: "wo-man; woman"


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## jefmcg (5 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> even the cow shoot.


I've learnt something from country cycling: I can differentiate cattle and sheep by smell alone. 

(many spring school holidays on the farm)


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## bpsmith (5 Dec 2017)

Blue Hills said:


> Sorry, you worry me profoundly, unless you are a pro, for even wanting to post-ride analyse what gears you were in for every metre of your ride. Smell the roses, even the cow shoot.


Nothing wrong with being into figures. I clearly wouldn't want to look at every part of the ride, but would like to use the information to compare spinning vs grinding for example.


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## davidphilips (5 Dec 2017)

jefmcg said:


> She was in her 30s. Try repeating after me: "wo-man; woman"




LOL, Ok smart ass now try cycling 872 miles in 2 days 11 hours and 7 minutes?


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## arch684 (5 Dec 2017)

ColinJ said:


> View attachment 386035
> 
> 
> Maybe you are strong enough to enjoy riding up 25% slopes in a 42/25 gear but I'm not, so I'll stick to my 28/30, ta very much!


@ColinJ I will be 67 next month my days of riding up hills like this are long gone,but every bike shop i visit every road bike has compact chain set with a 11/30 or 32 cassette. My neighbor who is in his late 20s borrowed a bike from me and brought it back after half an hour saying f*** that,that was got me thinking


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## jefmcg (5 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> LOL, Ok smart ass now try cycling 872 miles in 2 days 11 hours and 7 minutes?


I can't. Not close. But I'm not the one belittling the record of one of the greatest mid century athletes as "a girl" and thinking that men old enough to know what a Hercules bicycle is can compare themselves to her.

For the record, I've tried to cycle that distance
View: https://www.strava.com/activities/71705930/embed/fcbf84e25b856fe8ba3ab2af21717d3b78fde192


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## davidphilips (5 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Eileen Sheridan was an _amazing top level competitive cyclist _ with a phenomenal palmares of all the records available to her.
> 
> To compare like with like you'd have to ask if one of today's top female athetes (Jasmijn Muller perhaps) have much trouble performing phenomenal feats on a Hercules bicycle? I doubt it.
> 
> ...



You are perhaps putting a very different emphasis on what i wrote, Point i was making was that in 1954 a cyclist cycled 872 miles in a time that very few even with modern bikes and kit could do, this thread is about bike innovations you dont need? 

It was yourself that referred to Eileen Sheridan as merely "a girl" ? All i wrote was a girl not (merely "a girl") ?

Weather the bike was a Hercules bike or another bike rebadged it was still in 1954 even with a modern bike how many of us could even come close to that? For me any way there was nothing merely a girl or Merely about EIleen Sheridan.


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## davidphilips (5 Dec 2017)

jefmcg said:


> I can't. Not close. But I'm not the one belittling the record of one of the greatest mid century athletes as "a girl" and thinking that men old enough to know what a Hercules bicycle is can compare themselves to her.
> 
> For the record, I've tried to cycle that distance
> View: https://www.strava.com/activities/71705930/embed/fcbf84e25b856fe8ba3ab2af21717d3b78fde192




No i am not belittling one of the greatest mid century athletes but praising her, Try reading what i wrote instead of instead of posting ( She was in her 30s. Try repeating after me: "wo-man; woman") now that was a bit belittling and not very nice.

Where does this come from (and thinking that men old enough to know what a Hercules bicycle is can compare themselves to her) If you ever change your job dont go into mind reading as thats not what i thought.

But to praise you a bit and try to restore some harmony to this thread That was a good cycle you done in 2013 better than any i have done so well done, are you going to do it again?


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## Smokin Joe (5 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> Weather the bike was a Hercules bike or another bike rebadged it was still in 1954 even with a modern bike how many of us could even come close to that?


All the riders with the same ability as Eileen Sheridan could do it, and almost certainly improve on it with superior modern equipment. Sheridan rode the best kit available to her at the time, as did all top class riders. Were she alive today she'd run a mile from what she used back then, only a minority of people have a religious desire to live in some long forgotten golden era.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Dec 2017)

I hate the ashtray for bikes you can get now. Bloody useless.


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## ColinJ (5 Dec 2017)

arch684 said:


> @ColinJ I will be 67 next month my days of riding up hills like this are long gone,but every bike shop i visit every road bike has compact chain set with a 11/30 or 32 cassette. My neighbor who is in his late 20s borrowed a bike from me and brought it back after half an hour saying f*** that,that was got me thinking


I will be 62 in January and I am still riding up that hill and others like it (very slowly, and sometimes having to hop off and walk!) with the aid of my trusty 28/30 grovelling gear! 

I agree that people living in less hilly areas shouldn't need those tiny gears. I have actually ridden 1,500 miles in the last year on a home-built singlespeed bike which has a 52/19 gear, but I avoid the really steep climbs on that bike.


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## mjr (5 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Our hands might hurt a bit from riding narrower diameter handlebars.


Handlebar grip diameter hasn't changed much since the 1970s or probably earlier. Still either ⅞" or 15/16". Mainly the clamp diameter has gotten bigger.


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## SuperHans123 (5 Dec 2017)

Cycling clothes that make roadies look like highlighter pens.


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## jessand (5 Dec 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> Were she alive today she'd run a mile from what she used back then, only a minority of people have a religious desire to live in some long forgotten golden era.



She is alive today, although I'm not sure if she's still using the same bike.


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## mjr (5 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> I mentioned that because hand discomfort on long rides is something I experience when riding my old bike which has markedly thinner bars. Also noticeable in that gadget clamps won't fit both because of the size difference. I had to Dremel out the old Garmin mount to fit the new bars.


Don't most Garmin mounts fit near the clamp and not on the grip?

Anyway: Garmins. There's an innovation 49% don't need, as discussed on several threads


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## Blue Hills (5 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> What we really wouldn't like would probably be clothing that won't dry easily and utterly crap lights.


+1 to that.


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## SkipdiverJohn (6 Dec 2017)

[QUOTE 5067623, member: 9609"]I think it would aid concentration which would be a good thing for safety - being little more than a steering wheel attendant is not enough to fully engage with the task in hand and is likely the cause of some drivers drifting off into their own little dream worlds or playing with their mobile phones.[/QUOTE]

A lot of really useless drivers take their driving test in an automatic not for any genuine medical reason. but because they simply lack the hand/eye co-ordination to be able to steer a vehicle, control it's speed, change gear, and observe what is going on around them - all at the same time. User9609 is absolutely right - modern cars are dead easy to drive really badly and fast with virtually no effort or road awareness. That encourages people to let their attention drift away from their driving and do dumb things like texting, updating their facebook, reading papers, staring at the laptop they've got open on the passenger seat etc. Driving old vehicles with no idiot-proof features means you have to be really sharp, really on the ball, and concentrating on what you are doing. You have got too many things to co-ordinate to be able to let your attention wander. I drive enough miles to regularly witness the aftermath of high speed motorway shunts where the impact damage is so severe it's obvious the following driver didn't even notice that the vehicle in front had braked and they slammed full-tilt into the back of it. You can easily drive a modern automatic car at 100+ mph with your shoes off just in your socks and with only one finger on the steering wheel. What you can't do is change the laws of physics.


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## mjr (7 Dec 2017)

So, who'll be the first to try wireless brakes?


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## Tim Hall (7 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Failing that, those lights that project a not very visible image of a bike on the road in front of you. I was intruiged by the novelty value* when I first saw them, but now that has worn off there is nothing left but pointlessless.
> 
> * They'd receive a brief novelty boost if you could put your own, custom images of rude words and so on in them.


I used a Sadiq Cycle yesterday that, as many of them are, was fitted with frikkin lasers projecting "a not very visible image of a bike on the road in front of you". As I pootled slowly through Borough Market on the shared use bit, I came up behind a bunch of pedestrians. One of them made to side step right, which would put him in my path. I was already covering the brakes anyway, but the not very visible image of a bike was in his field of view. Whether this was what caused him to check his step and not fling himself under my wheels, I don't know , but it's nice to think it might have done.


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## LeetleGreyCells (7 Dec 2017)

Tim Hall said:


> I used a Sadiq Cycle yesterday that, as many of them are, was fitted with frikkin lasers projecting "a not very visible image of a bike on the road in front of you". As I pootled slowly through Borough Market on the shared use bit, I came up behind a bunch of pedestrians. One of them made to side step right, which would put him in my path. I was already covering the brakes anyway, but the not very visible image of a bike was in his field of view. Whether this was what caused him to check his step and not fling himself under my wheels, I don't know , but it's nice to think it might have done.



Perhaps it was the movement of the image that caught his attention and made him look for its source.


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## Tim Hall (7 Dec 2017)

RealLeeHimself said:


> Perhaps it was the movement of the image that caught his attention and made him look for its source.


That sounds entirely plausible.


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## Tim Hall (7 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> I take it all back. Far from being pointless, the not very visible images of bikes are very pointy indeed.


I think their point could do with being sharpened.

Here's my invention: Frikkin laser projects an arrow onto the ground in front of you. By the magic of SCIENCE it points the direction you need to go, as you've chosen the docking station that is your destination when you set off.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Dec 2017)

Head up display navigation glasses are not needed.


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## Smokin Joe (7 Dec 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> "A lot of really useless drivers ...". Where are you getting your facts from? Not just making them up perchance?


Sadly true in some cases though. 

That is the last resort of an instructor who is getting nowhere with someone who just can't hack it. Slide them over to someone teaching in an automatic before you start tearing your hair out.


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## jefmcg (7 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> A lot of really useless drivers take their driving test in an automatic not for any genuine medical reason. but because they simply lack the hand/eye co-ordination to be able to steer a vehicle, control it's speed, change gear, and observe what is going on around them - all at the same time. User9609 is absolutely right - modern cars are dead easy to drive really badly and fast with virtually no effort or road awareness. That encourages people to let their attention drift away from their driving and do dumb things like texting, updating their facebook, reading papers, staring at the laptop they've got open on the passenger seat etc. Driving old vehicles with no idiot-proof features means you have to be really sharp, really on the ball, and concentrating on what you are doing. You have got too many things to co-ordinate to be able to let your attention wander. I drive enough miles to regularly witness the aftermath of high speed motorway shunts where the impact damage is so severe it's obvious the following driver didn't even notice that the vehicle in front had braked and they slammed full-tilt into the back of it. You can easily drive a modern automatic car at 100+ mph with your shoes off just in your socks and with only one finger on the steering wheel. What you can't do is change the laws of physics.



So when were these halcyon days when drivers weren't killing themselves and other road users in the thousands?


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## davidphilips (7 Dec 2017)

mjr said:


> So, who'll be the first to try wireless brakes?



LOL, Already there hydralic. Have a nice day.


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## Blue Hills (7 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> LOL, Already there hydralic. Have a nice day.


Mine are starting to leak - though after years of good service. Am taking them off and going back to cables on that bike. I like simplicity these days.


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## jefmcg (7 Dec 2017)

davidphilips said:


> It was yourself that referred to Eileen Sheridan as merely "a girl" ? All i wrote was a girl not (merely "a girl") ?



You might not have typed the actual letters, but we can all read it nevertheless 


davidphilips said:


> none of them would believe that a girl (Eileen Sheriden)


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## Randy Butternubs (7 Dec 2017)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You can easily drive a modern automatic car at 100+ mph with your shoes off just in your socks and with only one finger on the steering wheel. What you can't do is change the laws of physics.



That's nothing to do with it being an automatic.

Also, I don't know what some people have against driving without shoes. If anything it gives you better feel of the pedals.


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## davidphilips (7 Dec 2017)

jefmcg said:


> You might not have typed the actual letters, but we can all read it nevertheless



Right thats it i am out of this thread i no longer care what your problem is what you think or write i am not going to get into a silly pointless debate with yourself or any one, I have tried to be nice, laugh of your comments, attempted reason all to no avail even praised you up when you put me down, but enough is enough i mean no disrespect but i really think you have a problem and wish you well and hope you can get yourself sorted. 
I will not reply to any thing on this thread or subject.


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## classic33 (7 Dec 2017)

Thought controlled gears. 

Thought controlled brakes could be a nightmare.


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## classic33 (8 Dec 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Head up display navigation glasses are not needed.


http://www.solos-wearables.com/


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## r04DiE (9 Dec 2017)

User said:


> How's the divorce going?


Ha ha, no - I was just saying that it is fine for _both of us_ to buy things that we don't need. Divorce averted.


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## Ming the Merciless (9 Dec 2017)

Passed a guy riding in shorts at -4C this morning. Maybe the long trouser innovation is not needed?


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## screenman (9 Dec 2017)

jefmcg said:


> So when were these halcyon days when drivers weren't killing themselves and other road users in the thousands?



Certainly not 1966.


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## screenman (9 Dec 2017)

My son is a blue light driver of a large red thing with a ladder on top, his first hgv test that enabled him to drive this vehicle was in an auto.


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## screenman (9 Dec 2017)

There is it seems a difference between, needing, wanting it in many cases affording. The latter seems to bring out the green eyes monster.


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## bpsmith (9 Dec 2017)

Never did understand the whole green eyed monster thing tbh.

Have had times of zero cash, and times of being reasonably flush, but never did really care what others have.

It’s the only way best to be!


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