# Beware bike insurance loopholes [MoreTh>n]



## mumbo jumbo (13 Aug 2011)

Seriously pissed off. I just had my claim for 2 stolen bikes declined (Trek 4500 and Specialized Hard Rock Sport - both MTBs with front susp). These are not high end bikes but were about £650 new around 2 years ago. Replacements just cost me £850. I was expecting the insurance to cover maybe half of that cost.

What happened? I had a trial run at fitting the 2 bikes plus roofbox and a couple of other bits onto the roof of our car before going on hols. Got it sorted in the end but a phonecall then heavy rain intervened and I ended up leaving them locked onto the car overnight. The car was parked on the drive. So we have:

- a parked car, deadlocked with an immobiliser
- roofbars locked onto the car
- bike carriers locked onto the roofbars
- bikes locked onto the bike carriers

You guessed it. Following morning they were gone. Police were informed and, credit to them, came round and investigated later that morning. Needless to say, nobody saw anything.

Now for the insurance bit. I expect like many of us, I have a specific bikes add-on to my home contents policy. £100 excess. £1500 single bike limit (that's for my bike!). There were 3 reasons my claim was declined:

- Although the bikes were on my property, they were outside the physical building which is my home so the normal contents policy didn't work. If they had been in the building, they would have had to be locked to something immoveable for the insurance to work.
- So my bike specific add-on should cover it (or so I thought). But no. This covers loss whilst outside the home *and the land belonging to the home. *The car and hence the bikes were on my land so I'm not covered. So it seems that locking your bike to a drainpipe or similar on the front of your house will never be covered.
- Even if the car had been parked 5 yards away on the road (off my land), I would still not have been covered because the bikes were *not locked to an immoveable object. *OK - so a car can be driven but this is a deadlocked car with an immobiliser. What this means is that your bike add-on extension to your contents policy will not cover you for any theft of bikes when they are in transit on a vehicle. Like going away on holiday for instance. 

My complaints have fallen on deaf ears. It's true to say that not all policies are the same so I'd be interested to know if others have successfully claimed for theft of bikes in similar circumstances or if there are insurers who are well known for providing better bike insurance.


----------



## User16625 (13 Aug 2011)

This is the reason I absolutlely despise insurance companies. They are 1 notch up from scum of the earth terrorists, pedophiles etc. Its a legal way to steal as far as im concerned. Only ever buy insrance that is absolutely required such as motor insurance and save yourself the bother.


----------



## byegad (13 Aug 2011)

I gave up last year when my then house insurer decided that my trikes had to be:-
a) 'Valued, by an expert.' 
Could they point me towards one? 
No I had to find my own. 
Would a price list help (They were covered new for old.)? 
No! 
If I find one and get them valued will they accept the valuation?
Not necessarily, but they'd only confirm if they accepted the valuation IF there was a claim.
b) 'The lock you use must be from our approved list.'
So weighing a ton!
c) 'The bike must be locked through the frame and a wheel to an immovable object and any other wheels similarly attached to the frame by a lock on the list.'
Another two tons! AND the need to find immovable objects. Given that the earthquake which caused the Japanese tsunami deflected the Earth slightly in its orbit, that one sounded like a catch-all get out clause if ever I heard one. 


I shopped around for house insurance, without bike cover as they all seemed to be allergic to insuring my trikes, and saved nearly £200/annum.

So I thought I'd go to a specialist insurer. For my two trikes they all want approximately £700/annum, and they have lock requirements. Blah! Blah! Blah!

So I didn't insure at all and instead used the money I've not spent on insurance to buy a third trike, delivery due soon.


----------



## MontyVeda (13 Aug 2011)

typical insurance companies, you're only covered until you make a claim!


----------



## Flying Dodo (13 Aug 2011)

More Than should rename themselves as Less Than!*

It's worth paying a bit extra to cover loss of personal items outside of the home.





*[sub]or should than be Fewer Than for the grammar police?[/sub]


----------



## ColinJ (13 Aug 2011)

MontyVeda said:


> typical insurance companies, you're only covered until you make a claim!


I have mine covered on my M&S home and contents insurance. In this thread, tundragumski reports having had his/her(?) unlocked bike nicked when (s)he turned his/her back for a few seconds at a cafe stop and (s)he got a new bike through M&S insurance within 2 weeks - not bad!


----------



## MontyVeda (13 Aug 2011)

ColinJ said:


> I have mine covered on my M&S home and contents insurance. In this thread, tundragumski reports having had his/her(?) unlocked bike nicked when (s)he turned his/her back for a few seconds at a cafe stop and (s)he got a new bike through M&S insurance within 2 weeks - not bad!



interesting... thanks for that. 

I keep considering contents and bike insurance but if i never get burgled and i never get my bike stolen it's money down the drain... so it's a case of finding a policy where the cost is negligible and a company that will pay out in the unlikely event i get robbed


----------



## Red Light (13 Aug 2011)

I've heard of good experiences with M&S from others. But if the insurance is with the same company for bikes and household I would try the insurance ombudsman.	Also have you looked at your car insurance to see if that would cover it. 

I got mine insured through the broker that advertises in the back of the CTC magazine and they seem to be pretty good at finding good home contents policies that include bikes inside and outside the house all risks.


----------



## mumbo jumbo (13 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> Also have you looked at your car insurance to see if that would cover it.


M&S are sounding good just now. I'll also look into a motor insurance claim. Probably should have thought of that before!


----------



## sean8997 (13 Aug 2011)

Be carefull what you tell your car insurance company, I had my bike nicked from inside my car last year, was locked up, coverered outside the hotel I was staying in, found that my car insurance only covered up to £100 worth of contents so i decided not to claim as not worth it. When my renewal quote came through, it had my car being broken into even though I didnt claim!


----------



## ColinJ (13 Aug 2011)

One loophole I've seen is that bikes must be stored locked in buildings of brick or stone construction, so wooden garden sheds would not be covered, no matter how securely your bike was locked inside! It's an absolute nonsense of course, because most brick or stone buildings have wooden doors ... _*Check the small print!*_


----------



## sean8997 (13 Aug 2011)

I now have my new bike insured with british cycling, as I live in an apartment block I leave my bike in the communal cycle stwage area, I provided pictures of the stowage area, the locks used and how I lock my bike up, they were more than happy with that.


----------



## chris-s (13 Aug 2011)

Not much help now, but that's why I moved to
Marks & Spencer home insurance.

Chris


----------



## al-fresco (14 Aug 2011)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. When I added my bike to my household policy I specifically checked that Liverpool Victoria consider that a locked roof-rack on a car counted as an "immovable object" and they advised me that it did. Well done for posting here - I certainly won't consider moving my insurance to Morethan.


----------



## Seigi (14 Aug 2011)

ColinJ said:


> One loophole I've seen is that bikes must be stored locked in buildings of brick or stone construction, so wooden garden sheds would not be covered, no matter how securely your bike was locked inside! It's an absolute nonsense of course, because most brick or stone buildings have wooden doors ... _*Check the small print!*_



I roll a boulder in front of my garage at night to close the door.


----------



## ColinJ (14 Aug 2011)

Seigi said:


> I roll a boulder in front of my garage at night to close the door.


Can't would-be thieves just roll it away again?


----------



## Norm (14 Aug 2011)

I think this thread is a telling reminder that insurance shouldn't be bought on the basis of the lowest quote.



al-fresco said:


> Sorry to hear about your bad experience. When I added my bike to my household policy I specifically checked that Liverpool Victoria consider that a locked roof-rack on a car counted as an "immovable object" and they advised me that it did. Well done for posting here - I certainly won't consider moving my insurance to Morethan.


I'm also with LV (and Frizzells before that) and have been for about 30 years. Which meant that, when my bike got stolen 2 years ago, they paid out even though it wasn't on my policy as I'd only had it a few days.


----------



## Seigi (14 Aug 2011)

ColinJ said:


> Can't would-be thieves just roll it away again?



Then I'll lock it to an immovable objec---oh wait...


----------



## DiddlyDodds (14 Aug 2011)

Never insured mine as they will not cover the shed as its in a yard shared by 5 houses, so 25 years of not paying insurance , 25 years of being careful and no bikes stolen as i installed a 3inch steel tube in the shed that i lock the frame of the bike to, and also lock the wheels to the floor, and as i work for a security door company i have a door and locking system better than most houses, so to nick it out of my super shed they would would have to take the shed to bits.



If i get mine nicked tomorrow i will still be in pocket from all the moneys i could have paid to Insurance companies over 25 years.


----------



## DiddlyDodds (14 Aug 2011)

If i get mine nicked tomorrow i will still be in pocket from all the moneys i could have paid to Insurance companies over 25 years.
[/quote]



Oh dear , that's tempting fate


----------



## Leaway2 (15 Aug 2011)

The Sperminator said:


> This is the reason I absolutlely despise insurance companies. They are 1 notch up from scum of the earth terrorists, pedophiles etc. Its a legal way to steal as far as im concerned. Only ever buy insrance that is absolutely required such as motor insurance and save yourself the bother.




+1


----------



## 400bhp (15 Aug 2011)

The Sperminator said:


> This is the reason I absolutlely despise insurance companies. They are 1 notch up from scum of the earth terrorists, pedophiles etc. Its a legal way to steal as far as im concerned. Only ever buy insrance that is absolutely required such as motor insurance and save yourself the bother.


----------



## 400bhp (15 Aug 2011)

Have you tried your car insurance?

And it's extremely lazy to leave them in the car overnight. Why should I subsidise someone who uses the moral hazard argument.


----------



## Wankelschrauben (15 Aug 2011)

My car insurance increased because my bicycle adds more risk to my car whilst it is parked up at home and not being used. Insurance companies are scum.


----------



## Night Train (15 Aug 2011)

This is why I don't bother insuring my bikes and use very big locks when I have to leave them anywhere.

Also why I have rat/hack bikes for going out locally and leaving where I can't see them.

I don't bother with house contents insurance either, the premiums would cost more then the stuff that would get nicked and I can do all the post break in repairs myself.

Also I have a habit of reading the small print and I know that there are far too many reasons for the insurer to use to avoid paying out in my circumstances.


----------



## leyburnrunner (15 Aug 2011)

The Sperminator said:


> This is the reason I absolutlely despise insurance companies. They are 1 notch up from scum of the earth terrorists, pedophiles etc. Its a legal way to steal as far as im concerned. Only ever buy insrance that is absolutely required such as motor insurance and save yourself the bother.


i work for an insurance company so ergo i'm one step removed from a paedophile, terrorist. i think you really need to re-calibrate your values and perhaps get out a bit more.


----------



## Nebulous (16 Aug 2011)

Insurance companies are not all created equal. A lot of it is about how they position themselves in the market. Many of the cheaper ones will squeeze claims hard. Some of the others will Market their product on service.

I spent a year as a financial adviser. My boss claimed that a man he had sold life insurance to died, the family phoned him and they had a cheque in their hands before the funeral. I visited a family who used another company, whose father had died two years earlier and they were still arguing about the payout. 

My view is - use known names. Stick with them. By all means ask them to match quotes but don't change every year. Read the small print. Declare everything. It's very tempting not to tell them something that you know could end up loading the premium but then you may not be covered. 

At the end of the day you need to remember it is a commercial organisation. Their decisions will be based on what they think is best for the company - not for you.


----------



## cyco2 (16 Aug 2011)

Really sorry about you losing your bikes but when you left them on your car over night were you not advertising them for somebody to pinch them. I think you did. You should have taken much more care over them and put a rain coat and leggings on and brought them inside. How do the insures know or not if you called your mates up and told them what's on offer tonight. I guess you have learnt a lesson on how to protect your bikes now because I do believe you have too much faith in humans. Next time you secure your bikes make sure you do what the insurers advise you to do.
Cafe stops are favourites with thieves and anybody who says they only left it for a minute are in the theft time zone.


----------



## Rebel Ian (16 Aug 2011)

Not cycle related but watch for "accidental cover"on house insurance. I dropped a can of white emulsion on our landing carpet a few years ago and claimed on our house insurance. Apparently we weren't covered for accidental damage!! WTF is insurance for if it's not for accidents?? "OK, I did it on purpose", I sarcastically said to the person at the insurance company.

Apparently our policy covered us for what we dropped but not for what it landed on. Therefore I could claim for a £10 tin of emulsion but not the £300 carpet it redecorated. And this was with CIS who are a big name so I don't go with the stick to the big name suggestion either. I hate them all.

Buy cheap, take care and hope you don't have to use them.


----------



## xpc316e (16 Aug 2011)

Buying insurance is not that different to placing a bet in a bookmaker's shop. The trouble with insurance comapnies is that a lot try to wriggle out of their obligation when the worst happens. I am not a betting man, but whoever heard of a bookie who said, "Oh sorry, we can't pay out on that bet, because when you placed it we thought the horse was going to lose." I am not saying they are one step removed from scum, but a lot of people are rather unhappy with their performance when they have to claim, and rightly so.


----------



## leyburnrunner (16 Aug 2011)

accidental damage tends to be an extra cover and therefore an additional charge. if you are buying household insurance they will always try and sell you the AD cover (it's more money for them so why wouldn't they?) so if you don't take it that's the consumers choice. 
AD coverage rends to be much abused with popular claims being the TV dropped down the stairs, paint on carpet and the annual sitting on your specs. many of these are fortunate and many aren't.


----------



## davefb (16 Aug 2011)

Rebel Ian said:


> Not cycle related but watch for "accidental cover"on house insurance. I dropped a can of white emulsion on our landing carpet a few years ago and claimed on our house insurance. Apparently we weren't covered for accidental damage!! WTF is insurance for if it's not for accidents?? "OK, I did it on purpose", I sarcastically said to the person at the insurance company.
> 
> Apparently our policy covered us for what we dropped but not for what it landed on. Therefore I could claim for a £10 tin of emulsion but not the £300 carpet it redecorated. And this was with CIS who are a big name so I don't go with the stick to the big name suggestion either. I hate them all.
> 
> Buy cheap, take care and hope you don't have to use them.



yeah, just renewed.. i didnt get accidental for the house.. ( just contents)

if i put my foot through the floor in the loft, thats an accident.. if i drill though a pipe, thats an accident..

if the loft collapses due to water, thats NOT, if the pipe fails due to 'age' thats not..

i'll take the risk about the paint ...


i'll have to check the small print about the bike in the shed though, i thought i'd checked it , but the documents that have arrived dont 100% tally with the discussions i had on the phone ( gaaah)...


----------



## Hop3y (16 Aug 2011)

leyburnrunner said:


> i work for an insurance company so ergo i'm one step removed from a paedophile, terrorist. i think you really need to re-calibrate your values and perhaps get out a bit more.



Amen to that. I work for an insurance company also.


----------



## 400bhp (16 Aug 2011)

Rebel Ian said:


> Not cycle related but watch for "accidental cover"on house insurance. I dropped a can of white emulsion on our landing carpet a few years ago and claimed on our house insurance. Apparently we weren't covered for accidental damage!! WTF is insurance for if it's not for accidents?? "OK, I did it on purpose", I sarcastically said to the person at the insurance company.
> 
> Apparently our policy covered us for what we dropped but not for what it landed on. Therefore I could claim for a £10 tin of emulsion but not the £300 carpet it redecorated. And this was with CIS who are a big name so I don't go with the stick to the big name suggestion either. I hate them all.
> 
> Buy cheap, take care and hope you don't have to use them.



If that's the case then why do you buy insurance that is not a legal requirement?


----------



## 400bhp (16 Aug 2011)

xpc316e said:


> Buying insurance is not that different to placing a bet in a bookmaker's shop. The trouble with insurance comapnies is that a lot try to wriggle out of their obligation when the worst happens. I am not a betting man, but whoever heard of a bookie who said, "Oh sorry, we can't pay out on that bet, because when you placed it we thought the horse was going to lose." I am not saying they are one step removed from scum, but a lot of people are rather unhappy with their performance when they have to claim, and rightly so.



The difference between insurance and placing a bet is that the insured has an interest in the risk.

This means, amongst other things, the insured can influence the frequency and severity of a claim. 

Lay people don't understand insurance which leads to the mistrust.


----------



## mumbo jumbo (16 Aug 2011)

cyco2 said:


> Really sorry about you losing your bikes but when you left them on your car over night were you not advertising them for somebody to pinch them. I think you did. You should have taken much more care over them and put a rain coat and leggings on and brought them inside. How do the insures know or not if you called your mates up and told them what's on offer tonight. I guess you have learnt a lesson on how to protect your bikes now because I do believe you have too much faith in humans. Next time you secure your bikes make sure you do what the insurers advise you to do.
> Cafe stops are favourites with thieves and anybody who says they only left it for a minute are in the theft time zone.


It has been a salutory lesson indeed. They were locked up. I thought they'd be OK. Perhaps I was naive. I bought 2 m/cycle security chains for locking up the 2 new bikes on roof and the 4 tow bar mounted ones when we went on holiday proper. I've now got 3 anchor bolts plus another m/cycle chain on order [the bikes hang on the wall in the garage; I'll chain them up in pairs] and have got all the bikes security tagged with bikeshepherd.org 

Re this line in particular "Next time you secure your bikes make sure you do what the insurers advise you to do" there's nothing you can do if you are transporting bikes on a vehicle. If the insurer says a vehicle is not an immoveable object, you're buggered.

I've checked M&S. They're very expensive. But I got a very good quote from the AA. I've been specifically checking bike issues and the AA have checked with the underwriter (Allianz) and they would have covered this loss. Be careful out there!!!


----------



## Rebel Ian (16 Aug 2011)

400bhp said:


> If that's the case then why do you buy insurance that is not a legal requirement?




Now I've learned my lesson I don't.


----------



## subaqua (16 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> I've heard of good experiences with M&S from others. But if the insurance is with the same company for bikes and household I would try the insurance ombudsman. Also have you looked at your car insurance to see if that would cover it.
> 
> I got mine insured through the broker that advertises in the back of the CTC magazine and they seem to be pretty good at finding good home contents policies that include bikes inside and outside the house all risks.




yeah wifey did that for all 6 of our bikes. CTC that is, very reasonable cost too. not had to claim yet and hopefully won't but thats the acid test


----------



## cyco2 (16 Aug 2011)

mumbo jumbo said:


> Re this line in particular "Next time you secure your bikes make sure you do what the insurers advise you to do" there's nothing you can do if you are transporting bikes on a vehicle. If the insurer says a vehicle is not an immoveable object, you're buggered.



At the time you were storing them outside your house on top of your car at night. They were at the most vulnerable point in there lives. God knows what the police must have thought when you told them how you had safely stored them. I doubt very much they will be looking for them.
If you had asked them, the insurers would hardly of told you to lock them up on top of your car for the night, "They'll be ok".
There is a huge difference between transporting your bikes on the car and leaving them on your car over night without security. Locks are not actually secure. They just delay. The theft of locked up bikes is a challenge to thieves and they have become amazingly adapt at it.

I.e. A friends motorcycle was stolen from his locked garage which had a locked car blocking its removal. So, the bike was lifted on to a mattress on the car and slid over the top and popped in to a van.


----------



## jansman (21 Aug 2011)

Flying Dodo said:


> More Than should rename themselves as Less Than!*
> 
> It's worth paying a bit extra to cover loss of personal items outside of the home.
> 
> ...


----------



## Little yellow Brompton (21 Aug 2011)

400bhp said:


> The difference between insurance and placing a bet is that the insured has an interest in the risk.
> 
> This means, amongst other things, the insured can influence the frequency and severity of a claim.
> 
> Lay people don't understand insurance which leads to the mistrust.



When in doubt , blame the customer?


----------



## 400bhp (21 Aug 2011)

No, blame the idiot.


----------



## Little yellow Brompton (21 Aug 2011)

400bhp said:


> No, blame the idiot.




Ahhh, 


Don't explain your product properly ( to your advantage) then blame the customer, and call them an idiot!


----------



## 400bhp (21 Aug 2011)

It was a curt reply to your curt reply.

I CBA to discuss on a cycling forum the intricacies of insurance.


----------



## Little yellow Brompton (21 Aug 2011)

400bhp said:


> It was a curt reply to your curt reply.
> 
> I CBA to discuss on a cycling forum the intricacies of insurance.



Or even reply in the correct format!


----------



## dellzeqq (21 Aug 2011)

it's a harsh tale, and I, for one, am glad that the mumbo-jumbo let us know. Good luck to you if you decide to fight this.


----------

