# First electric car experience



## figbat (30 Jul 2021)

I am currently part-way through a day-long test drive with an electric MINI and I have to say that so far I am pretty impressed. I am considering replacing my MINI Cooper S and have been offered a good deal to chop it in early against the EV. Today is the first time I have driven an EV other than a golf buggy. My thoughts:

It's got all the low-down pep that I was expecting
When underway it feels remarkably similar to my Cooper S
Lift-off regen braking takes a little getting used to but having got the hang of it I love the one pedal driving dynamic
Range - yes, it's not great but >95% of my journeys are easily within range and it'd probably do 2-3 days before needing charging
It's the first 3-door I've driven since my Peugeot 205 XS in the mid-90s - it has less rear legroom than my current 5-door but still enough for the 11-13yo kids and as it is a strict 4-seater rather than 5 they have more width in the rear.
I imagine an order will follow the test drive - just have to configure the body colour, roof/mirror colour and wheel options - there aren't many more options to consider as it is pretty well-specced as standard (the Level 2).

I am a life-long 'petrol-head' although really I am a vehicle enthusiast rather than specifically a petrol engine lover. I love driving anything and everything: motorbikes, cars of all shapes and speeds (from a Fiat 126 to a Lamborghini Aventador), tractors, trucks, go-karts, even an APC. This MINI brings a new driving dynamic to learn and master and I like that.


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## Drago (30 Jul 2021)

Daughter #3 receives her Mini electric in September, the same day Mrs D takes delivery of her Polestar 2.


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## welsh dragon (30 Jul 2021)

I think the battery range of all electric cars is still quite iffy. What they say you get and the reality are quite different. They're claims are based on very strict controlled parameters that are nigh on impossible to achieve in real life . I did hear within the last couple of days that the differance is up to a third of what they claim to achieve.

Glad to hear the experience of actually driving one is good though.


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## midlife (30 Jul 2021)

We have had 4 minis and at the moment we have a Countyryman Cooper so well known to the people at LLoyd Mini Carlisle LOL.

When the time came to hand back the Evoque I looked at an electric Mini but could not make the figures stack up against a cheap £3.5k petrol runabout. Next time maybe.


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## fossyant (30 Jul 2021)

Don't pick the stock wheels, they look like something out of the 80's.


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## vickster (30 Jul 2021)

midlife said:


> We have had 4 minis and at the moment we have a Countyryman Cooper so well known to the people at LLoyd Mini Carlisle LOL.
> 
> *When the time came to hand back the Evoque* I looked at an electric Mini but could not make the figures stack up against a cheap £3.5k petrol runabout. Next time maybe.


Bet you couldn't wait to get rid of the pointless fugly thing


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## figbat (30 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> Don't pick the stock wheels, they look like something out of the 80's.


I know what you mean - they are on the demonstrator I have. No, they do a nice set of diamond-cut wheels as a no-cost option.


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## figbat (30 Jul 2021)

welsh dragon said:


> I think the battery range of all electric cars is still quite iffy. What they say you get and the reality are quite different. They're claims are based on very strict controlled parameters that are nigh on impossible to achieve in real life . I did hear within the last couple of days that the difference is up to a third of what they claim to achieve.


To be fair the same applies to mpg numbers and has done ever since they were required to be quoted. I work alongside the automotive industry and have worked on vehicle efficiency programs so am well-versed in the testing requirements and realities. Even so, when you can refill your car every night and your journeys are almost all well under even the most pessimistic range estimate, it's not a problem.

They reckon it'll do 4 miles/kW.h and at my current, non-EV-specific domestic electricity tariff that means about 4p/mile compared to about 16p/mile on unleaded at today's prices. The car is showing better than 4 miles/kW.h on the dashboard at the moment, based on my experimental driving (so not efficiency-optimised!).


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## Drago (30 Jul 2021)

The standard wheels can be swapped for one of 3 other styles at no cost on the mini electric. I kinda like the stock ones, remnicscent of a 3 pin plug.

Because Daughter #3 was buying ive been poring over the brochures with her, and i have to say they do look rather nice. The range is a little limited compared to some because Mini use a smaller battery, but the upside is that charging times are very quick and what is there is probably sensible for most folk. The Zoe has rather more range, but who wants to sit in a diddy car for 245 miles? Not me for sure.

The Mini electric weighs about 140kg more than the Cooper S, but has a lower C of G so probably is quite sure footed to fling about.


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## figbat (30 Jul 2021)

Deed done - ETA November/December. British Racing Green, body-coloured roof and mirrors, Rail Spoke 17" wheels. Rather like this actually:







Drago said:


> The Mini electric weighs about 140kg more than the Cooper S, but has a lower C of G so probably is quite sure footed to fling about.


I could detect a teensy bit of front-endiness when pushed through a corner, but since the MINI is one of the least understeery cars I have driven in a long time it is barely worth mentioning. Other than that it handled very similarly to the belchy-engined one but with much more responsive pick-up and very handy regen braking.


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## fossyant (30 Jul 2021)

figbat said:


> I know what you mean - they are on the demonstrator I have. No, they do a nice set of diamond-cut wheels as a no-cost option.



Thank god, the originals are gopping.


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## fossyant (30 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> The standard wheels can be swapped for one of 3 other styles at no cost on the mini electric. I kinda like the stock ones, remnicscent of a 3 pin plug.



You are just weird.


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## figbat (30 Jul 2021)

fossyant said:


> Thank god, the originals are gopping.


Chatting to the salesperson they said the demo car had kerbed one but all that colouring is part of the wheel and near-impossible to renovate.


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## fossyant (30 Jul 2021)

At least it doesn't have an un-reliable engine in the new one.


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## cyberknight (30 Jul 2021)

Just a question,as you will not be able to buy a non ev or hybrid new by 2030 how will it affect the second hand market and given the cost of battery replacement will second hand ev cars be useable as the range drops?.Not everyone can afford a new car


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## gzoom (30 Jul 2021)

figbat said:


> I am a life-long 'petrol-head' although really I am a vehicle enthusiast rather than specifically a petrol engine lover.



Am not sure why you waited so long to try an EV. I traded in a 380whp BMW 335i running a Quaife LSD, Bilstein dampers for a Nissan Leaf after a test drive!!

I haven't looked back since, and when our current EV is due for replacement some time near 2030, I cannot wait to try a quad motor, 1000bhp+ machine that will do 0-100mph in sub 4 seconds .


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## gzoom (30 Jul 2021)

cyberknight said:


> given the cost of battery replacement will second hand ev cars be useable



EV battery cost replacements are doing quite nicely now. A brand new 90kWh pack (250miles+ range) use to cost £30-40k, its now down to £20k, and in a few years will be close to £10k.

Still alot of money but its getting there.

Degredation is also not terrible on used EVs, at 40k miles our EV has lost 5% in range and that figure seems pretty static now. Judging by data from older EVs, at 100k miles degradation should still be at roughly 5%.


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## keithmac (30 Jul 2021)

I'm still waiting for an affordable EV motorcycle, it is the future.

I can also see an EV car in our house for wife's work journey etc.

Towing wise though they are pretty useless, a proper diesel is still a necessity if you own a caravan it seems..


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## cyberknight (30 Jul 2021)

gzoom said:


> EV battery cost replacements are doing quite nicely now. A brand new 90kWh pack (250miles+ range) use to cost £30-40k, its now down to £20k, and in a few years will be close to £10k.
> 
> Still alot of money but its getting there.
> 
> Degredation is also not terrible on used EVs, at 40k miles our EV has lost 5% in range and that figure seems pretty static now. Judging by data from older EVs, at 100k miles degradation should still be at roughly 5%.


still above my budget at 10 k for a whole car


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## figbat (30 Jul 2021)

keithmac said:


> Towing wise though they are pretty useless, a proper diesel is still a necessity if you own a caravan it seems..


We comfortably tow a 1,461kg caravan with a petrol-engined Volvo and when it is time to replace it we’ll probably go for a PHEV version. Teslas can tow pretty well, although range takes a dent.


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## Bazzer (30 Jul 2021)

My Golf hybrid was a left field purchase as I had been looking at a Merc SLK, Golf GTI or Golf R. I think it's great. The electric range isn't good compared to a full EV, but it suits me and with hindsight I could have gone full EV.


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## Spiderweb (30 Jul 2021)

My daughter has just got here first car in British racing green, it’s a lovely colour.


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## neil_merseyside (30 Jul 2021)

figbat said:


> Teslas can tow pretty well, although range takes a dent.


At just a 100 miles it isn't what I'd call a dent, more like being cleft in two? (and how much?)


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## midlife (30 Jul 2021)

Yep, our Countryman is BRG too


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## keithmac (31 Jul 2021)

To be fair 100 miles towing is pretty good for a pure EV, probably Tesla is the only one to achieve that for a long time to come.

Would mean 3 long stops to Cornwall though for us..


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## bikingdad90 (31 Jul 2021)

@Spiderweb I’m not sure who is sizzling more, your daughter or the car! Both look ready for many happy miles together with the top down. Bet she is buzzing with it!

Unfortunately for me until they develop a 3isofix rear seat EV car I’ll be sticking to a Renault Scenic, Ford Smax or VW Touran to fit my three and my other half in.


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## JoeyB (31 Jul 2021)

It’ll be a dark day when I have to buy an EV.


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## Bonefish Blues (31 Jul 2021)

Nice colour, but an authentic BRG it ain't


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## figbat (31 Jul 2021)

bikingdad90 said:


> Unfortunately for me until they develop a 3isofix rear seat EV car I’ll be sticking to a Renault Scenic, Ford Smax or VW Touran to fit my three and my other half in.


They won’t be in car seats forever!


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## gzoom (31 Jul 2021)

bikingdad90 said:


> Unfortunately for me until they develop a 3isofix rear seat EV car I’ll be sticking to a Renault Scenic, Ford Smax or VW Touran to fit my three and my other half in.



Our X has 4 isofix points in back, though its hardly an affordable family car, not helped by Tesla putting up the price of a new one by £5000 recently!!!


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## Illaveago (31 Jul 2021)

It is all very nice but they haven't sorted out the charging issues yet. The Hyundai which takes 5 minutes to charge giving 62 miles on a 350KW charger sounds fine but if there were a lot of them charging at the same time then there would be a few blackouts . 
Unless they increase the numbers of charging points vastly people could end up queueing to charge their vehicles.The other thing is will there be charging point hogging ? The people who are charging their vehicles go off shopping and forget that other people might be waiting to use the machine .
Also there will come a point when people will have to start paying. The government will soon discover that they won't be getting the same income that they used to from selling fuel .


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## bikingdad90 (31 Jul 2021)

Ooh @gzoom now that is interesting! Shame it isn’t affordable yet.


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## gzoom (31 Jul 2021)

bikingdad90 said:


> Ooh @gzoom now that is interesting! Shame it isn’t affordable yet.



Its a real shame with all EV pricing these cars really aren't getting any cheaper, because as family cars they are fab. Massive amounts of space, top safety rating, peanuts running costs despite crazy performance.

The starting price of our Tesla was £64k in 2016 its now a mad £95k!!! I persume all these companies need to make ££££ from developing these cars and if people are buying them at inflated prices they feel no need to reduce prices. Its much like bike companies charging crazy amounts for their top end machines.


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## keithmac (1 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Am not sure why you waited so long to try an EV. I traded in a 380whp BMW 335i running a Quaife LSD, Bilstein dampers for a Nissan Leaf after a test drive!!
> 
> I haven't looked back since, and when our current EV is due for replacement some time near 2030, I cannot wait to try a quad motor, 1000bhp+ machine that will do 0-100mph in sub 4 seconds .
> 
> View attachment 601764



Some Teslas are already doing 2.5 second 0 to 60. Instant full torque from standing start.

I'm sure I've seen some Tesla 9 second 1/4 mile runs.

Amazing really!.


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## JhnBssll (3 Aug 2021)

Sounds like an excellent choice, EV's are certainly becoming more and more popular. The Tesla model 3 was the highest selling car in the UK in June. I'm sure this was partly due to supply issues, but even so it's a big swing towards electrification.

I was lucky enough to order a Model 3 a few weeks back. Went for the long range dual motor variant with 19" sport wheels in the standard white, pretty excited! It's a company car so the low BIK made it the only sensible choice. With an achievable real world range of over 300 miles (362 advertised) and 0-60 of 4.2 seconds it should be able to do my 24 mile round trip commute quite comfortably


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## fossyant (3 Aug 2021)

JhnBssll said:


> The Tesla model 3 was the highest selling car in the UK in June


Lease.

Not ownership though is it ! 

I am not paying that silly money for a tin box. Fark that... 

Sorry most of these cars are not* 'owned'. *


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## Ridgeway (3 Aug 2021)

Once the range is there i'll be switching over, that should be at the next car change so in 3yrs approx. Just changed cars and in my investigation there were 2 things that made an EV a non option: 1) no choice of an estate/load lugger and 2) too limited range, i believe both will be resolved over the next 24 months or so, at least enough for my needs

Until then i'll just keep burning some petrol


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## JhnBssll (3 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Lease.
> 
> Not ownership though is it !
> 
> ...



Was it something I said? 

I beg to differ - all of these vehicles are owned, just some not always by the registered keeper. I joined a Model 3 Facebook group recently and they did a quick poll to gauge ownership type and over 60% of those that responded had paid cash for their cars. Its probably not statistically relevant to the wider population, but its interesting none the less.

I paid cash for my last car and I wish I hadn't. When it went catastrophically wrong a few days out of warranty it cost me nearly £5k to repair, then I lost another £2k selling it on at a reduced price with another fault still present. I could have given a lease car back at any point and lost far less money. I won't be buying a car outright for the foreseeable future, I've seen the lease light 

This Tesla as a company car is anything but silly money, it'll cost me £16 a month in BIK and I'll save far more than that in fuel bills, insurance, tyres, servicing etc etc


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## cougie uk (3 Aug 2021)

cyberknight said:


> still above my budget at 10 k for a whole car


You do need to factor in your needs too. If you do regular decent mileage that's within the range of the car then you're paying what 25% of the cost of petrol or diesel. That adds up pretty quickly.


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## Tenkaykev (4 Aug 2021)

For those with a deeper interest in the construction and “ under the bonnet “ engineering of electric vehicles there is the “ Munro Live “ YouTube channel. Sandy Munro is an engineer who worked his way up in Ford Motors to head research departments.The company is an engineering consultancy that purchases Electric vehicles and strips them down to the nuts and bolts, analysing and reporting on the good and not so good aspects of the component and construction choices. A really interesting and deep insight into Electric vehicles.


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## cyberknight (4 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You do need to factor in your needs too. If you do regular decent mileage that's within the range of the car then you're paying what 25% of the cost of petrol or diesel. That adds up pretty quickly.


about 4000 miles a year


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## fossyant (4 Aug 2021)

cyberknight said:


> about 4000 miles a year



Like me, not enough miles.

I've considered one for the commute, but a bit pointless now due to covid, and my commutes will be a couple of times a week, and likely by bike now.

Also I could just squeeze a trip to the caravan in an EV, but not get back, charging points are poor in North Wales, and not so sure a caravan electrics will cope with a charger.

Cost is also an issue. e.g a petrol Corsa is about £10k or more cheaper than the electric one. Bonkers - i'll never get the fuel difference back.


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## figbat (4 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Also I could just squeeze a trip to the caravan in an EV, but not get back, charging points are poor in North Wales, and not so sure a caravan electrics will cope with a charger.


Some caravan sites specifically forbid the charging of EVs from the general EHU network. A limited number provide EV charging capability. I did wonder about charging mine from the caravan on the drive, since it is plugged in to the house and has a convenient spare socket right there next to the car, but as you say even though it is nominally a 13A circuit in the 'van and the car's granny charger is supposedly rated at 10A, I'm not willing to try it.


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## fossyant (4 Aug 2021)

figbat said:


> Some caravan sites specifically forbid the charging of EVs from the general EHU network. A limited number provide EV charging capability. I did wonder about charging mine from the caravan on the drive, since it is plugged in to the house and has a convenient spare socket right there next to the car, but as you say even though it is nominally a 13A circuit in the 'van and the car's granny charger is supposedly rated at 10A, I'm not willing to try it.



Our caravan trips if you have the kettle and microwave on. 3kw is about max.


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## Sittingduck (4 Aug 2021)

What is available in terms of 'hot-swappable' battery packs? I think if this doesn't exist, it needs to be invented.
Not saying they can't have conventional charging and batter packs in there but a supplementary hot swap battery that can be plugged in and would be organised like BBQ gas bottles with instant swap of empty for a full one (offered at all garages) seems to be a good idea, at least to me. The hot swap pack would offer perhaps 100 miles for extended range and remove the time to charge mid trip. Anybody know if this exists yet or if not when?!

I tried to order a PHEV on the company scheme late last year but it didn't work out and for now at least we have a petrol which is likely to become our second car in a few years time. I would like to go to full EV but the range limitations and charging requirements (plus high cost of the car) are off putting.


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## figbat (4 Aug 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Once the range is there i'll be switching over, that should be at the next car change so in 3yrs approx.


An interesting point on range. Some people (maybe you, maybe not) appear to be waiting for range to match or exceed an ICE car. I have a different view - the MINI I have ordered has a range around 1/3 of the ICE one it replaces. However I can't think of a single time I have driven my current MINI through a full tank in one go, or even close to that. I believe that most, if not all of the journeys I have done in it have been within the range of the EV version. What I don't know is whether a recharge option was available at or near the destination if the return journey was further than the range because I wasn't looking for them.

I always fill my car up when I refuel, but this just sits on the drive as stranded capital until it gets used. If I could have a smaller tank and refill at home whenever I wanted then I'd take that if it brought packaging or performance benefits.


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## figbat (4 Aug 2021)

Sittingduck said:


> What is available in terms of 'hot-swappable' battery packs? I think if this doesn't exist, it needs to be invented.
> Not saying they can't have conventional charging and batter packs in there but a supplementary hot swap battery that can be plugged in and would be organised like BBQ gas bottles with instant swap of empty for a full one (offered at all garages) seems to be a good idea, at least to me. The hot swap pack would offer perhaps 100 miles for extended range and remove the time to charge mid trip. Anybody know if this exists yet or if not when?!


This has come up a few times. The batteries are deeply integrated into the car's design making a swappable option near-impossible. Capacities, charging profiles etc will be optimised per vehicle so a hot-swap version will always be a compromise for the car it is in. Plus there is the problem of infrastructure - what battery:car ratio is needed and where? And the connectors will need to be pretty hefty and absolutely solid - swapping in and out presents opportunities for wear and damage. Batteries are generally held low-down in the chassis too - a hot-swap version would have to be accessible so probably higher up, impacting CofG. And a battery with any meaningful capacity will be a pretty hefty lump too.

I have seen some development of this type in electric motorbikes but nothing commercialised yet that I am aware of.

Perhaps better to carry a small suitcase generator with you...


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## figbat (4 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Our caravan trips if you have the kettle and microwave on. 3kw is about max.


So 12.5A then?
I believe that the use of extension cables to plug in EV chargers is largely frowned upon, although this is probably to prevent people using low quality, reeled-up cables and causing "unplanned thermal events". I consider the caravan to essentially be a multi-gang extension, albeit with built-in RCD and fusing. I'm not sure what cabling is used throughout but given the focus on weight I'd imagine it's nothing too chunky.

I am now fussing over how to charge the MINI at home. It comes with a 'granny' charging cable (3-pin plug type) but this is too short to reach the most available plug. I'll probably have a charging pod installed, but this is a minefield too. I am mulling having an external power point fitted on the front of the house, with an internal isolator to prevent anybody simply helping themselves - this will also provide power for garden/DIY machinery which is currently powered, when needed, from an extension reel. In the future Mrs figbat is likely to trade up to a PHEV which will also need access to a plug/charger.


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## mustang1 (4 Aug 2021)

For a daily driver, I will never have an ICE car again.


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## fossyant (4 Aug 2021)

figbat said:


> So 12.5A then?
> I believe that the use of extension cables to plug in EV chargers is largely frowned upon, although this is probably to prevent people using low quality, reeled-up cables and causing "unplanned thermal events". I consider the caravan to essentially be a multi-gang extension, albeit with built-in RCD and fusing. I'm not sure what cabling is used throughout but given the focus on weight I'd imagine it's nothing too chunky.
> 
> I am now fussing over how to charge the MINI at home. It comes with a 'granny' charging cable (3-pin plug type) but this is too short to reach the most available plug. I'll probably have a charging pod installed, but this is a minefield too. I am mulling having an external power point fitted on the front of the house, with an internal isolator to prevent anybody simply helping themselves - this will also provide power for garden/DIY machinery which is currently powered, when needed, from an extension reel. In the future Mrs figbat is likely to trade up to a PHEV which will also need access to a plug/charger.



Outside sockets are pretty useful anyway. Do you have to pay extra for a charging pod ?

We've got loads of charging points at work, and I've looked at an older Zoe as a solution (but still retaining my old petrol car). Only issue now is the 'leased' battery option would be more expensive than my current car as I'll be WFH for 2-3 days a week, and probably cycling the others. Had I been in work then it's about half the cost of petrol to lease a battery - I quite like the look of the Zoe.


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## figbat (4 Aug 2021)

A charging station will cost money, yes, at the benefit of charging faster than a 3-pin plug and having various abilities to control if and when charging happens, for example during low-cost tariff periods or whatever.

For me the choice was not about running costs, it was about just getting the latest type of car. In the past I have moved from carbs to injection, manual to DCT and now from ICE to EV. The fact that it will reduce costs whilst retaining most of the useful performance is a bonus.


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## Sittingduck (4 Aug 2021)

figbat said:


> This has come up a few times. The batteries are deeply integrated into the car's design making a swappable option near-impossible. Capacities, charging profiles etc will be optimised per vehicle so a hot-swap version will always be a compromise for the car it is in. Plus there is the problem of infrastructure - what battery:car ratio is needed and where? And the connectors will need to be pretty hefty and absolutely solid - swapping in and out presents opportunities for wear and damage. Batteries are generally held low-down in the chassis too - a hot-swap version would have to be accessible so probably higher up, impacting CofG. And a battery with any meaningful capacity will be a pretty hefty lump too.
> 
> I have seen some development of this type in electric motorbikes but nothing commercialised yet that I am aware of.
> 
> Perhaps better to carry a small suitcase generator with you...



Well it sounds like the clever engineers need to keep working on my solution in this case. I am sure that something offering a faster way (like almost instant) of getting a charge into an EV will become available one day - can only hope


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## cougie uk (4 Aug 2021)

Sittingduck said:


> Well it sounds like the clever engineers need to keep working on my solution in this case. I am sure that something offering a faster way (like almost instant) of getting a charge into an EV will become available one day - can only hope


No need. There are super fast chargers out there already. You need to get away from the mentality of filling a petrol tank. 

The vast majority of people hardly ever charge away from home. I do on holiday but that's about it. 

The only thing that's stopping most people now is that they don't understand EVs and they're more expensive than ICE. 

Both of these will improve with time. We've had our Leaf for a year now and love it. Wouldn't go back to ICE.


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## figbat (4 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You need to get away from the mentality of filling a petrol tank.


This.

EVs are being compared to ICEs (understandably) and in terms of range and refilling are coming up short. What is missed though is that the range and filling benefits of an ICE are largely more than people need, so the expectations of matching them are unjustified. You have a huge range on your ICE but never use it, so why moan when it's gone?

Another performance difference is top speed. This used to be hailed as a mark of performance and EVs are typically slower at top speed. But again, nobody ever uses the top speed of their car, so it is irrelevant. The MINI Cooper SE will do about 100 mph, so is 30+ mph down on the ICE alternative, however it covers the same _usable_ speed range and over the normal speed range is arguably quicker accelerating.

Just a couple of years ago the thought of having a car that could barely crack 100 mph was unthinkable, but that's because a car that couldn't do 100 mph was also low-powered and slower accelerating. But I can't recall the last time I drove my own car at 100 mph, or even close to it. I can't imagine I'll be doing any track days in the MINI, nor any autobahns, and the Nürburgring is _right _out.


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## Sittingduck (4 Aug 2021)

Noting to do with filling a tank mentality. Everything to do with needed to sometimes do trips that would be in excess of the range. In an ideal world I would never need to venture further than 100 miles from home by car but sadly this is not always the case.


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## neil_merseyside (4 Aug 2021)

Sittingduck said:


> Noting to do with filling a tank mentality. Everything to do with needed to sometimes do trips that would be in excess of the range. In an ideal world I would never need to venture further than 100 miles from home by car but sadly this is not always the case.


Exactly this. 
We never use our car around 'town' as we walk or cycle, big shopping is delivered.
BUT we have to travel 150 miles often (6-10x a year) to a place with no charging available, so would need 300 mile range or have to break the journey, slightly less often we travel 300 miles (2x year) and could maybe use a granny charger to get back, but then we have a caravan to tow occasionally (6xyear). Our car will do 900 on a tank, no need to granny recharge in the middle of a 600 round trip. I may be an edge case but I'm not sure it's a great idea to scrap a working car for a newly created car that can't replace the previous one.


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## cougie uk (4 Aug 2021)

Where do you go to that doesn't have electricity ? 

My wife's bladder is the limiting factor on how long we drive for without a stop - not the EV. 

Quick loo stop and we are almost back to full again.


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## mistyoptic (4 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Where do you go to that doesn't have electricity ?
> 
> My wife's bladder is the limiting factor on how long we drive for without a stop - not the EV.
> 
> Quick loo stop and we are almost back to full again.


Which is fine as long as the charging points are not already in use. We have the same issue that our car is mainly used for long trips, from Staffordshire, to family in Devon or Hampshire. For the last ten years we’ve done a biannual trip across Europe to the algarve. Service areas with only a few points each don’t cut it. 
I recognise that the infrastructure is improving all the time. We just had four points fitted round the corner at our local co-op.


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## gzoom (4 Aug 2021)

Sittingduck said:


> What is available in terms of 'hot-swappable' battery packs? I think if this doesn't exist, it needs to be invented.



Tesla had an operating 'battery swap' station in 2013/14!! It got shut down because no one used it, Supercharging was easier to access and cheaper. Consumers showed what they wanted, technically is been possible to do for nearly a decade. 


View: https://youtu.be/H5V0vL3nnHY


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## gzoom (4 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> BUT we have to travel 150 miles often (6-10x a year) to a place with no charging available.



As already mentioned do you visit places without electricity? 

Our EV has been our main family car since 2015, and we go on plenty of long trips/holidays. Next week we are going on a 900 mile road trip to the Highlands, cannot wait .


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## gzoom (4 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I may be an edge case but I'm not sure it's a great idea to scrap a working car for a newly created car that can't replace the previous one.



Untill you try and EV, you cannot dismiss them as not been as good as combustion cars. For me they are BETTER, and I've had some OK combustion cars. This is the dyno print out for my last combustion car, thats WHP, and notice the odd power curve.....we couldn't stop it from wheel spinning on the dyno. I even took it on a 2000 mile European road trip to the Swiss Alps and coming back via Germany and the Belgium GP, so you could say I was just slight petrol head .

















......can you guess the EV I gave up the 335i for......a Nissan Leaf , and as far as am concerned it was the best car purchase decision I have ever made. You would have to pay me to go back into a combustion car these days, and even than I would just sell that car and get an EV. I'm going to list all the reasons why I love EVs so much more than combustion cars, but if a self proclaimed former petrol head can make the move to EVs, am sure most people can.


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## neil_merseyside (4 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> I'm *(NOT?)* going to list all the reasons why I love EVs so much more than combustion cars, but if a self proclaimed former petrol head can make the move to EVs, am sure most people can.


I like the way they drive, all that torque from the off, but it's just they don't go far enough for our usage pattern, not even the £100K one alien mask sells.


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## JhnBssll (4 Aug 2021)

We've got a petrol car too which we'll be keeping, along with a Diesel van. It will be interesting to see how often I start using the Tesla on longer drives though, I suspect it will be a more pleasant environment than even my wife's Arteon but we shall see  I've got a bit of a wait until I can find out as yet


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## BrumJim (5 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Untill you try and EV, you cannot dismiss them as not been as good as combustion cars. For me they are BETTER, and I've had some OK combustion cars. This is the dyno print out for my last combustion car, thats WHP, and notice the odd power curve.....we couldn't stop it from wheel spinning on the dyno. I even took it on a 2000 mile European road trip to the Swiss Alps and coming back via Germany and the Belgium GP, so you could say I was just slight petrol head .
> 
> View attachment 602687
> 
> ...


Do you live near the mighty metropolis called Great Stretton, then? Or Eau Rouge / Raidillon?


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## cyberknight (5 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> Like me, not enough miles.
> 
> I've considered one for the commute, but a bit pointless now due to covid, and my commutes will be a couple of times a week, and likely by bike now.
> 
> ...


yeah i was looking at the new corsa out of interest for the next car when we get rid of the stepway eventually as the corsa is now a similar size ( 10 less litres boot space ) but they start at £17 k ! for a petrol . Mrs CK wants a duster and i can see us getting a bigger car as the kids get older .If we get either carers allowance or PIP for mrs ck on top of the disabilty allowance for mini ck 1 she would pack up work anyway .


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## fossyant (5 Aug 2021)

cyberknight said:


> yeah i was looking at the new corsa out of interest for the next car when we get rid of the stepway eventually as the corsa is now a similar size ( 10 less litres boot space ) but they start at £17 k ! for a petrol . Mrs CK wants a duster and i can see us getting a bigger car as the kids get older .If we get either carers allowance or PIP for mrs ck on top of the disabilty allowance for mini ck 1 she would pack up work anyway .



Good luck with the PIP - could MrsCK qualify for the 'mobility' allowance - could use that for a leccy motability car !


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## cougie uk (5 Aug 2021)

I'd not be looking at the Duster. Poor safety ratings. They don't mention that in the ads.


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## cyberknight (5 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I'd not be looking at the Duster. Poor safety ratings. They don't mention that in the ads.


Looking at the actual report it is let down by the lack of AEB, the rest of the test read ok .I suppose growing up in the 70s where the boot was used to carry kids anything seems better


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## dave r (5 Aug 2021)

cyberknight said:


> Looking at the actual report it is let down by the lack of AEB, the rest of the test read ok .I suppose growing up in the 70s where the boot was used to carry kids anything seems better



Yes, I read an article about that, just the absence of one system dragged the whole thing down. I remember as a kid traveling in the back of my Uncle's A35 estate when he had a full car and needed to fit a couple of us kids in.


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## tyred (5 Aug 2021)

dave r said:


> Yes, I read an article about that, just the absence of one system dragged the whole thing down. I remember as a kid traveling in the back of my Uncle's A35 estate when when he had a full car and needed to fit a couple of us kids in.


Six kids can be squeezed into the back seat of an Austin Metro and then a further three adults in the front as I recall from a seaside trip from my youth. 

Nowadays it seems to require an enormous SUV just to transport just one child a few hundred yards to school.


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## cyberknight (5 Aug 2021)

tyred said:


> Six kids can be squeezed into the back seat of an Austin Metro and then a further three adults in the front as I recall from a seaside trip from my youth.
> 
> Nowadays it seems to require an enormous SUV just to transport just one child a few hundred yards to school.


we had a micra 2 adults and 4 kids before that a maxi but we didnt even have a car till i was maybe 12-13 ? untill then it was bus or walk with hols being on the train .


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## figbat (5 Aug 2021)

Pffft! Amateurs! My wife was one of 17 women who crammed into a classic Mini Cooper for a Guinness World Record. Admittedly they didn’t drive anywhere.


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## gzoom (6 Aug 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Do you live near the mighty metropolis called Great Stretton, then? Or Eau Rouge / Raidillon?



I would love to live here, but I cannot tolerate the weather.....so instead Leicestershire will do .







JhnBssll said:


> We've got a petrol car too which we'll be keeping, along with a Diesel van. It will be interesting to see how often I start using the Tesla on longer drives though, I suspect it will be a more pleasant environment than even my wife's Arteon but we shall see  I've got a bit of a wait until I can find out as yet



If you are a cheapskate than the EV will get used alot more, its easily 50% cheaper for fuel costs alone.

We are heading out to Fort William this weekend, 900 miles+ summer holiday road trip coming up in our EV (total estimated fuel costs £30), cannot wait.


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## Sittingduck (6 Aug 2021)

Gzoom what real world range do you get with the Leaf and is it s 40 or 62kW version please?
I have seen quoted figures around 270 miles does this bear out in typical conditions though? of course in mid winter I would expect less than in summer but in general…

maybe I will just take the plunge in a cpl of years when the Seat is paid off and likely to become my OH’s, so we would always have something capable of a longer trip without the need to recharge.

thanks


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## cougie uk (6 Aug 2021)

We have the 42kw Leaf and in the summer I reckon you'd get 145 miles on the motorway. 
Different roads and speeds would give you different range. 

The longest normal day for us is about 70 miles so it would be rare for us to need to charge away from home.


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## gzoom (6 Aug 2021)

@Sittingduck A Leaf will do about 3-3.5miles per kWh at 70mph, so you can work out the range from there.

For long range travel the thing to realize is charging speed and efficiency is almost as important at range.

Essentially you can have a car with a massive range, but if it charges slowly and has a big battery it will actually take LONGER to do a long trip than a car with a smaller battery, better efficiency and high charging speeds.

The Leaf unfortunaly doesn't have great charging speed, and also isn't that efficient, it also is hampered by needing a CHADEMO rapid charging port which is now been phased out as everyone else is using CCS. Think VHS versus Betamax, with CHADEMO been Betamax, so in a few years time there is a chance you might struggle to find a rapid charger that works with the Leaf!!

This chap does some interesting 1000km test in Europe using fast chargers (350KW) which aren't that common yet. The results are interesting as it shows its not always the cars with the biggest range that do the trip fastest.


View: https://youtu.be/IX5000aRx5Q


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## icowden (6 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I like the way they drive, all that torque from the off, but it's just they don't go far enough for our usage pattern, not even the £100K one alien mask sells.



How far do you drive per day then? The Tesla S is up to 400 miles of range now. So easily London to Edinburgh without charging. Most people would stop for a wee and a sandwich during that drive, so that gives a chance to charge up some additional miles.


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## neil_merseyside (6 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> How far do you drive per day then? The Tesla S is up to 400 miles of range now. So easily London to Edinburgh without charging. Most people would stop for a wee and a sandwich during that drive, so that gives a chance to charge up some additional miles.


In a previous job I occasionally drove Merseyside to Alps a few times a year, however these days it's maybe 300 a day (*3) getting to holiday destination, but frequent (8 p a.) 300 round trip with no charging available. Is the 400 mile daylight summer range or winter overnight? but perhaps more importantly is that a car that costs £12,000 like my current car did (that has 750+ range) and a shame/waste/crime to scrap a working vehicle - even if the Tesla was free! Even at my age I have a 6hr bladder so a driver swap (and even a wee) doesn't allow enough time for a recharge, and we prefer sandwiches that are homemade, healthy and cheap so food stops wouldn't count. Electric cars will suit 90% of motorists wthout doubt, but then again walking and cycling could probably cover 60% of journeys in any case.


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## gzoom (6 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> In a previous job I occasionally drove Merseyside to Alps a few times a year



If I had £1 every time someone bought up driving to the Alps when EVs get mentioned......At least you haven't said you wanted to tow a caravan at the same time .

What you say is true, if you want to drive to the Alps non stop an EV will take longer, but I suspect the number of people who have driven to the Alps from the UK is tiny, and even more tiny is the number of people who have done it none stop. So you are right for your situation an EV isn't going to work well, and may never do so. But for the vast majority of UK car owners EVs add little to no inconvenience. 

We can easily afford any number of combustion cars, and my family certainly don't like been inconvenienced, yet 6 years on from taking ownership of our first EV we have zero interest or intent to buy another combustion car.


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## neil_merseyside (6 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> If I had £1 every time someone bought up driving to the Alps when EVs get mentioned......At least you haven't said you wanted to tow a caravan at the same time .
> 
> What you say is true, if you want to drive to the Alps non stop an EV will take longer, but I suspect the number of people who have driven to the Alps from the UK is tiny, and even more tiny is the number of people who have done it none stop. So you are right for your situation an EV isn't going to work well, and may never do so. But for the vast majority of UK car owners EVs add little to no inconvenience.
> 
> We can easily afford any number of combustion cars, and my family certainly don't like been inconvenienced, yet 6 years on from taking ownership of our first EV we have zero interest or intent to buy another combustion car.



Lots of people do lots of silly mileages and just in the UK, for them (+me) ICE is only option until EV's improve, for the rest an EV is ideal, as I'm sure walking and cycling don't allow for anywhere near as much posing with your latest credit money pit.
I think if they could move the Alps and the Spanish Med coast a bit nearer the problem would indeed be solved.


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## icowden (6 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> In a previous job I occasionally drove Merseyside to Alps a few times a year, however these days it's maybe 300 a day (*3) getting to holiday destination, but frequent (8 p a.) 300 round trip with no charging available.



So, you have a non-typical journey to the alps, presumably of around 900 miles. And more frequently you can drive 300 miles per day.
A Tesla Model 3 Long Range can manage about 300 miles per day, so you don't need to use superchargers there. Presumably you stop at some point rather than just driving a 300 mile circle, so there should be an opportunity to top-up charge.

For the Alps, you have a 293 mile drive to the Channel Tunnel. You can park at a Tesla Supercharger there whilst you wait for your EuroTunnel slot. It's likely you'll want to be there in good time, so you are going to have at least 30 minutes to charge I'd have thought. Lets assume you set off early, so breakfast during the trip through the Tunnel. AT this point you should be back up to at least the 250 mile mark I'd have thought.

One more stop for a good leg stretch somewhere at a supercharger around Reims and another one further on at Basel (dependent on your route) . Don't forget you are likely to stop twice for petrol or diesel twice unless you have a magnificent MPG.

Bearing in mind that this is around a 16 hour drive (with an hour off for the tunnel), a couple of 30 minute stops for leg stretching before the tunnel and somewhere on the france / switzerland leg doesn't seem unreasonable.

Of course you'll have spend a lot less on recharging than you would have done on petrol / diesel.
And of course you are still basing your usage on 11 trips per year rather than daily use.

What's the "range" of your ICE car?


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## simongt (6 Aug 2021)

Interesting point about charging bays. They seem to invariably be out in the open and unlit, unlike pretty much all normal filling stations. Thus if you need to recharge and it's coming down stair rods, you, your payment card and the electric plug and socket are going to get very wet. 
Go figure.


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## JhnBssll (6 Aug 2021)

The batteries will be perfectly conditioned on a long trip like that too so on v3 superchargers you'll be looking at charge speeds peaking at 1000 miles per hour, from 5 to 95% charge in 37 minutes but you'd hit 80% much quicker as the charge speed ramps down a lot as you reach full capacity. I genuinely don't think people will expect EV's to meet their ICE needs for long, they'll start adapting their usage to suit EV's which have significant benefits elsewhere. With mine I don't expect to need to stop for a charge very regularly at all, and will likely go months on end without having to do more than plug it in overnight. No more over-priced petrol station hot dogs for me


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## neil_merseyside (6 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> So, you have a non-typical journey to the alps, presumably of around 900 miles. And more frequently you can drive 300 miles per day.
> A Tesla Model 3 Long Range can manage about 300 miles per day, so you don't need to use superchargers there. Presumably you stop at some point rather than just driving a 300 mile circle, so there should be an opportunity to top-up charge.
> 
> For the Alps, you have a 293 mile drive to the Channel Tunnel. You can park at a Tesla Supercharger there whilst you wait for your EuroTunnel slot. It's likely you'll want to be there in good time, so you are going to have at least 30 minutes to charge I'd have thought. Lets assume you set off early, so breakfast during the trip through the Tunnel. AT this point you should be back up to at least the 250 mile mark I'd have thought.
> ...



The trip to the Alps is indeed a marathon (950miles), 300 miles to tunnel, refill in Calais (was cheaper) drive to foot of Alp and fill up with winter diesel (if winter season). Stopping excessively just increases the drive time overall, so as long as you have two drivers you can go straight through with only short comfort breaks. If driving for work then overnights and easier days applied. If driving solo you'd want more of a break be it for work or holiday. Indeed arrive on a Saturday in February, you can have an hours kip at the toll boths at both Chambéry  and Albertville. Glad I arrived in November and left in May.
The car has a range in excess of 800 miles, but the 300 mile round trip is to a place with no charging available (a 3rd floor flat on the road) and I'm not going to swap to a £40K car that if it's a bit cold, or I drive too fast might not complete the round trip, and would superchargers at Dover be available for my 30 minute window, do you book them in advance to ensure you can charge when needed?

The recharging saving will disappear into EVIL (Electric Vehicle Income Levy) to recover the fuel duty and VAT that ICE engines currently pay.


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## icowden (7 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> The car has a range in excess of 800 miles, but the 300 mile round trip is to a place with no charging available (a 3rd floor flat on the road) and I'm not going to swap to a £40K car that if it's a bit cold, or I drive too fast might not complete the round trip, and would superchargers at Dover be available for my 30 minute window, do you book them in advance to ensure you can charge when needed?
> 
> The recharging saving will disappear into EVIL (Electric Vehicle Income Levy) to recover the fuel duty and VAT that ICE engines currently pay.



Not heard of EVIL and it doesn't come up on Google. At the moment Governments want people to go electric, so it makes no sense to charge additional taxes (yet).

As for superchargers at Dover, one of the nice things about Tesla is that they are intelligent. They will recommend where to charge and network with each other so they should have some idea of whether the charger you want will be available at around the time you get there.

The cold weather / driving too fast thing is a bit of a red herring. Sure, if you live in Reykjavik then you will get a lot less range, but Merseyside doesn't get *that* cold, *that* often. You'll also probably find a charger of some sort near the flat. It doesn't *have* to be a tesla supercharger. You could even chuck a cable out of the flat if you can park close enough!

Switching to EVs requires learning some new habits and discarding some old ones. The biggest fear is about range, but then you start with a full tank every morning.

At the end of the day, if you don't like the idea then you can stay with Petrol or Diesel. However, as more people switch over that fuel is going to get more expensive, and petrol stations are going to start to close down. Eventually it will be very expensive to run a gas guzzler.


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## neil_merseyside (7 Aug 2021)

EVIL will be along very, very shortly say ICE ban +2years at the latest.
So as I get towards Dover the superchargers say "sorry try Ramsgate"? 
I don't need to chuck a *mains cable* into a public road, or even go hunting for a free charger (and wait x4-6 of a fuel refill) as I have an existing vehicle, in good order, and with a fuel tank that can do the round trip TWICE. 
If I'm still driving 300 mile trips and the range of BEV isn't 400+ (in UK winter using lights and heating, or indeed UK summer and Aircon) then I'll have another newish Diesel just before the ban comes into force as they'll be pennies to buy, unless of course the predictions of power shortages make them expensive as they'll still work for at least the 10 years until LGV go Duracell.

If they made a BEV that could tow a caravan (~1250kg) more than 200 miles, and run solo for 600 I'd get one in a heartbeat, but not new as they are silly money.


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## Daninplymouth (7 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Untill you try and EV, you cannot dismiss them as not been as good as combustion cars. For me they are BETTER, and I've had some OK combustion cars. This is the dyno print out for my last combustion car, thats WHP, and notice the odd power curve.....we couldn't stop it from wheel spinning on the dyno. I even took it on a 2000 mile European road trip to the Swiss Alps and coming back via Germany and the Belgium GP, so you could say I was just slight petrol head .
> 
> View attachment 602687
> 
> ...


No wonder it was wheel spinning that power curve looks pretty shocking, nothing nothing bang then all over within 2000rpm


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## icowden (7 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> If I'm still driving 300 mile trips and the range of BEV isn't 400+ (in UK winter using lights and heating, or indeed UK summer and Aircon) then I'll have another newish Diesel just before the ban comes into force as they'll be pennies to buy, unless of course the predictions of power shortages make them expensive as they'll still work for at least the 10 years until LGV go Duracell.
> If they made a BEV that could tow a caravan (~1250kg) more than 200 miles, and run solo for 600 I'd get one in a heartbeat, but not new as they are silly money.



They might be pennies to buy, but you may find that the Diesel becomes pretty costly.
BEVs have a lot of torque, the Tesla S (1600kg), Tesla X (2268kg) and Cybertruck can all pull that load easily and do 200 miles. The Model 3 is only rated for up to 1000kg. If you don't like the idea of Tesla, Polestar 2 has a similar towing capacity and decent range.

Other than your phobia of driving 600 miles without stopping, these cars already exist. You can regain 200 miles in 15 minutes at a Tesla supercharger. Not only that but your Tesla will know if the chargers are in use or not.


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## neil_merseyside (8 Aug 2021)

Tesla S has a range of 345 so a towing range of ~170, X is 295 so ~150 but you couldn't pay me to drive the tonka toy.
The Polestar2 is 265 so ~130. None of those is 200 miles. 
All are a lot of money than ICE cars so never going to be £12K secondhand at less than three years old, and again it would mean scrapping an already built working vehicle/un-natural resource hog. 
I've no phobia of 600 miles without stopping, other than the waste of time it involves, but this is probably the nub of BEV unsuitability for anyone who has a need to drive more than normal, and it's just that the range is so poor compared to a diesel. I they located the chargers somewhere you'd like to visit and could combine a visit and a recharge seems it might work - but then I'd have to move the car after short/long period. 
I'll wait until have a better range so that home charging allows me to 'runaround/a lot' without factoring visits to a charger. Tesla superchargers are quick, they are intelligent too, but sadly they may be in use, so that begs the question do you stop at the first available one just in case the second/third is busy, how easy is it to get a caravan into a charging bay incidently. 
If my relatives die, we give up caravanning and long distance holidays - so the longer drives aren't needed then a BEV would work, though I doubt I could actually afford one.

figures from ev-database.uk, fuel consumption for towing is generally 50% similar to diesel.


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## icowden (9 Aug 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Tesla superchargers are quick, they are intelligent too, but sadly they may be in use, so that begs the question do you stop at the first available one just in case the second/third is busy, how easy is it to get a caravan into a charging bay incidently.



I think you would have to unhitch the caravan to use the charging bay. Tesla's can now see if superchargers are in use before you get there. Therefore they won't try to navigate you to one that is full, but one that has spaces.

I agree with you about the range issue with towing, but a 360 mile range on an S halved is still 180 miles, so close to the 200 mark. Above all, driving an EV isn't like driving an ICE car. You do it differently, and most people seem to adapt pretty quickly.


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## gzoom (9 Aug 2021)

We did nearly 6hrs in our EV today, traffic, mini floods, road closures, packed services, we had it all!!

But our 4 years old EV worked flawlessly, our EV really is simply the best family car we have ever owned. I absolutely love it!!


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## AuroraSaab (10 Aug 2021)

The sticking point for me is the life of the batteries. If I bought a 3 year old EV, how long till the batteries need replacing? The life of a battery in a Nissan Leaf is apparently ten years and a quick Google suggests £4-5 k to replace. For someone who buys used cars and keeps them a long time, I don't think EV cars add up just yet.


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## JhnBssll (10 Aug 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> The sticking point for me is the life of the batteries. If I bought a 3 year old EV, how long till the batteries need replacing? The life of a battery in a Nissan Leaf is apparently ten years and a quick Google suggests £4-5 k to replace. For someone who buys used cars and keeps them a long time, I don't think EV cars add up just yet.



Battery replacement is a really good point, but its important to remember that the tech is moving quickly and the price will move with it. You need to consider what the price of the replacement battery might be when it needs replacing, not what it's current price is. Four or five years is a long time in battery pricing and prices will continue to fall.


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## Richard A Thackeray (10 Aug 2021)

I recorded the Guy Martin programme about building the fastest accelerating road-legal electric car
I saw the series that 'Mog' was associated with _'Vintage Voltage_' & there was some nice cars in it
But, that Beetle is lovely
The VW pick-up looks scary, with the rolling burnout!



icowden said:


> So, you have a non-typical journey to the alps, presumably of around 900 miles. And more frequently you can drive 300 miles per day.
> 
> A Tesla Model 3 Long Range can manage about 300 miles per day, so you don't need to use superchargers there. Presumably you stop at some point rather than just driving a 300 mile circle, so there should be an opportunity to top-up charge.
> 
> What's the "range" of your ICE car?



Impressive!!

My (previous) Octavia estate 1.6Tdi (remapped) could give an estimated 700miles on a tank, at a 60MPH cruise,

I can't really comment on its replacement (Kodiaq 2.0Tdi/6-speed manual), but after a few m-way trips, it gives an estimated range of 660miles
I'm happy with that, as it's bigger/heavier/more ''draggy'than the Octavia (it's the 4x4 model)
The tank is about a gallon bigger than the Octavia too

It's best average, to East Midlands Airport, brimmed less than a mile from home




That hypothetical 700 miles





And, even better
This one included M62/A63 to Hull
125 miles, plus the range remaining!!!


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## gzoom (11 Aug 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> The sticking point for me is the life of the batteries. If I bought a 3 year old EV, how long till the batteries need replacing? The life of a battery in a Nissan Leaf is apparently ten years and a quick Google suggests £4-5 k to replace. For someone who buys used cars and keeps them a long time, I don't think EV cars add up just yet.



As I've mentioned our EV is already 4 years old and the battery is absolutely fine. I have no intention of swapping cars for another 4 years at the latest. 

The Leaf battery doesn't last well because it has very basic cooling and battery management. All the EVs you can buy new should last long while.

I do expect to replace the battery in our EV at somepoint as I anticipate keeping it 10 years+.


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## cougie uk (11 Aug 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> The sticking point for me is the life of the batteries. If I bought a 3 year old EV, how long till the batteries need replacing? The life of a battery in a Nissan Leaf is apparently ten years and a quick Google suggests £4-5 k to replace. For someone who buys used cars and keeps them a long time, I don't think EV cars add up just yet.



Where did you get 10 years from ?

https://www.zap-map.com/electric-ta...les in Nissan LEAF,single bar of battery life.


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## Richard A Thackeray (11 Aug 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I recorded the Guy Martin programme about building the fastest accelerating road-legal electric car
> I saw the series that 'Mog' was associated with _'Vintage Voltage_' & there was some nice cars in it
> But, that Beetle is lovely
> The VW pick-up looks scary, with the rolling burnout!


Crazy!!

650BHP, & ??? of torque, from that Beetle

Enough to prevent a better than 10.6 1/4 mile. due to wheelspin............... even on that surface (which he was sticking to as he walked on it)


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## gzoom (12 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Where did you get 10 years from ?
> 
> https://www.zap-map.com/electric-taxi-company-clocks-100000-miles-in-nissan-leaf/#:~:text=LEAF - Zap-Map-,Electric Taxi company clocks 100,000 miles in Nissan LEAF,single bar of battery life.



90% battery life after 200k miles.....Which far more millage than most post people keeps their cars for (even after 10 years).

Though I have no doubt someone will be alone soon to say they do 100k miles in a month (whilst towing a caravan across the alps) and hence 90% battery life at 200k is useless .

https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/


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## Tenkaykev (12 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> 90% battery life after 200k miles.....Which far more millage than most post people keeps their cars for (even after 10 years).
> 
> Though I have no doubt someone will be alone soon to say they do 100k miles in a month (whilst towing a caravan across the alps) and hence 90% battery life at 200k is useless .
> 
> https://insideevs.com/news/525820/tesla-battery-capacity-retention-90/


I was reading an article about EV's on Ars Technica, which is mainly US based. There were the usual BTL comments debating the various benefits / limitations of Electric Vehicles. One commenter in particular was very negative about range, stating that in his job as a musical instrument repairer he often had to travel great distances, and quoted a recent instance where he had supposedly had to travel several hundred miles to perform an emergency repair to a trombone😄
This became a bit of a "Meme" with comments on subsequent articles referring to the mythical emergency trombone repair situation.


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## aferris2 (12 Aug 2021)

On the Guy Martin programme he drove a Hyundai to JOG and back. About 1100 miles if I remember correctly. What surprised me was the cost of recharging. Something like £240 which was around twice what the diesel would have cost. Don't know if this was just because he was looking for the fastest chargers, but is this the reality?


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## fossyant (12 Aug 2021)

aferris2 said:


> On the Guy Martin programme he drove a Hyundai to JOG and back. About 1100 miles if I remember correctly. What surprised me was the cost of recharging. Something like £240 which was around twice what the diesel would have cost. Don't know if this was just because he was looking for the fastest chargers, but is this the reality?



The super chargers were near 70p a KWh. Normal on-road charger is about 30p kwh. At home I think you can get a 15p rate for overnight, maybe cheaper. Standary leccy is 20p a kwh currently, and given my leccy bill on the house = Yikes.

I think Guy was just following the map which told him where they (chargers) were. Just the super chargers were the ones working.

It shocked me of the cost, and again, the broken chargers.

TBH I wouldn't splurge £50k on a tin box, EV or planet burning ! I don't have that much money. £25k for a small EV, I wouldn't even spend that. 

My last car cost me £12k at 10 months old, having lost £8k from the new price in 10 months, and I've still got it 19 years later. You can get an old Leaf or a Zoe for under £10k, but most Zoe's have a £70 a month battery rental, which added in with free recharges at work, is only say £50 less than my car costs to fuel, then add in all the depreciation on a newer car. Financially it's a no brainer for me.

They are just too expensive. I'd still need a planet burner to transport the bikes to the caravan and back, until North Wales actually gets a few chargers.


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## icowden (12 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> They are just too expensive. I'd still need a planet burner to transport the bikes to the caravan and back, until North Wales actually gets a few chargers.



EV chargers near Penygroes, Beddgelert, Capel Garmon, COnwy, all over anglesea, near black rock sands, all over North Wales and indeed Wales. Not so many superchargers but lots of Tesla Level 2 destination chargers, podpoints, chargemaster points, geniepoints etc.


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## cougie uk (12 Aug 2021)

aferris2 said:


> On the Guy Martin programme he drove a Hyundai to JOG and back. About 1100 miles if I remember correctly. What surprised me was the cost of recharging. Something like £240 which was around twice what the diesel would have cost. Don't know if this was just because he was looking for the fastest chargers, but is this the reality?



I do know that the instavolt on the motorway are 30p per kWh. 

He was paying 70p per kWh because of the stupid challenge of Leicestershire to John O Groats and back in a day. 

And is nobody mentioning safety ? That was a lot of driving hours for no point. 

I did see a tweet from the EV guy saying that Guy is a bit down on EVs. He bought his girlfriend an EV citycar - but they live out in the middle of nowhere. It'd be great in a city - but not where they are.


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## aferris2 (12 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> And is nobody mentioning safety ? That was a lot of driving hours for no point.


A lot of driving hours with a lot of stops too. We didn't see what sort of speed he was doing but my guess would be that he was stopping every 2 or 3 hours which is comparable to the usual suggestions.
The main things I took from this though was 
1. recharging is not super cheap. You can charge at 30p/kwh but that only puts it slightly cheaper than diesel
2. Range is not even close to the stated numbers
3. Availability of working charge points is an issue at the moment.


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## cougie uk (12 Aug 2021)

aferris2 said:


> A lot of driving hours with a lot of stops too. We didn't see what sort of speed he was doing but my guess would be that he was stopping every 2 or 3 hours which is comparable to the usual suggestions.
> The main things I took from this though was
> 1. recharging is not super cheap. You can charge at 30p/kwh but that only puts it slightly cheaper than diesel
> 2. Range is not even close to the stated numbers
> 3. Availability of working charge points is an issue at the moment.



Most people will charge at home for the vast amount of their journeys. I only need to use chargers on holiday. 
Range is pretty close. Obviously it depends on how you drive. I don't think Guy is the world's most economic driver. 
I've not had issues but rarely use them. There are more dedicated charging stations being built though - so like a garage forecourt with chargers instead of pumps and a coffee and snack bar too.


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## icowden (12 Aug 2021)

aferris2 said:


> 1. recharging is not super cheap. You can charge at 30p/kwh but that only puts it slightly cheaper than diesel
> 2. Range is not even close to the stated numbers
> 3. Availability of working charge points is an issue at the moment.



Recharging is a lot cheaper than diesel. This article is from 2019 but it makes the point:-
drive-electric.co.uk/electric-vehicles-vs-petrol-diesel-hybrid/

Even superchargers are cheaper than Diesel by a fair amount, and Diesel is only going to get more expensive.

Your second point is valid, but the same can be said of fuel consumption figures for ICE cars.

Your third point is a mystery. No one on here driving an EV has reported a problem with working charge points. Maybe Guy should have got a Tesla?


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## AuroraSaab (12 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Where did you get 10 years from?



Various Nissan websites, like this one, say a Leaf battery is good for ten years, probably longer. The warranty is 8 years or 100k. If they were confident it was good for say 15 years surely they'd give a longer warranty than 8 years. 

https://www.pinnaclenissan.com/blog...af-battery-life-expectancy-specs-warranty.htm

The car in your link is certainly impressive though it would still be an issue for me. If I bought a 3 year old Leaf from Nissan at £17k, and kept it for the usual 7 plus years I keep a car (if I like it), what's it worth when I want to sell it? A new battery is around £4-5k. Surely the depreciation will increase faster on an electric car as it gets to the end of the battery life, rather than slowing after initial heavy depreciation as it does with a petrol car.

Some stats on Nissan Leaf battery deterioration here:

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-nissan-leaf-battery-deterioration


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## cougie uk (12 Aug 2021)

So good for at least ten years. Sure the range will drop off a bit but unless you're using the full range often it shouldn't be an issue. 

I bought my Leaf at two years old and will hold on to it for a good few years. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## MrGrumpy (12 Aug 2021)

Doesn’t fill me with confidence when battery’s are only guaranteed for 8yrs or 100k miles. My current car is 9yrs old now. I keep my cars long if I like them.


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## cougie uk (12 Aug 2021)

How long was the guarantee on your existing car ?


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## Richard A Thackeray (13 Aug 2021)

The _'Vintage Voltage_' crew, who appeared on the Guy Martin programmes
The Range Rover is lovely

https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/


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## aferris2 (13 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Recharging is a lot cheaper than diesel. This article is from 2019 but it makes the point:-
> drive-electric.co.uk/electric-vehicles-vs-petrol-diesel-hybrid/
> 
> Even superchargers are cheaper than Diesel by a fair amount, and Diesel is only going to get more expensive.


Not sure that the 70p/KWh that Guy Martin found makes an EV cheaper than a diesel, but this might be an extreme. For myself, EV's might be worth looking at when (if) diesel does get more expensive. I'm quite happy with my 09 plate citroen for the moment.


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## MrGrumpy (13 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> How long was the guarantee on your existing car ?


Ok to put it another way , my previous car is still going as sold to my neighbour. It’s 15yrs old and still running. 160k miles in the clock . Batteries as well all know only have so many recharge cycles. That’s my concern.


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## AuroraSaab (13 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> How long was the guarantee on your existing car ?



6 months, when I bought it used. But what job on a car will cost £5k? Not that many.

Hopefully though the cost of batteries will fall and what is a £5k job when you bought the car might be a £2k job by the time it actually needs doing. Add to which the repair costs of an EV should be lower over a long period, so you'll save there. EV's are definitely something we are keeping an eye on. OH is quite keen and keeps doing the sums.


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## MrGrumpy (13 Aug 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> 6 months, when I bought it used. But what job on a car will cost £5k? Not that many.
> 
> Hopefully though the cost of batteries will fall and what is a £5k job when you bought the car might be a £2k job by the time it actually needs doing. Add to which the repair costs of an EV should be lower over a long period, so you'll save there. EV's are definitely something we are keeping an eye on. OH is quite keen and keeps doing the sums.


Not knocking them just not ticking all the boxes for me. Lack of charge points is the major hurdle. A colleague of mine had a Leaf but only charged it up at his wife’s work as it was free !! The charging and driving revolved around that issue ?! Nuts , my brother in law bought a Tesla , free charging at his work ! They couldn’t even use it to go on holiday, as lacking space . Anyway issues that will resolve over time I’m sure . For me I’ll wait till either something suitable or cost becomes an issue with the oil burner.


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## figbat (13 Aug 2021)

Charging at work is currently not treated as a benefit in kind and so is not taxed or in any way recorded as ‘income’, unlike if you are provided with fuel. Who knows if and when that will change?


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## fossyant (13 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> EV chargers near Penygroes, Beddgelert, Capel Garmon, COnwy, all over anglesea, near black rock sands, all over North Wales and indeed Wales. Not so many superchargers but lots of Tesla Level 2 destination chargers, podpoints, chargemaster points, geniepoints etc.



There are bugger all near my caravan in Prestatyn. Those you 'quoted' are miles away from each other, and Anglesey gets then as 'posh' people go there. Where I am in South Manchester, most supermarkets have chargers, and are only a mile or two apart.


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## Tenkaykev (13 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> There are bugger all near my caravan in Prestatyn. Those you 'quoted' are miles away from each other, and Anglesey gets then as 'posh' people go there. Where I am in South Manchester, most supermarkets have chargers, and are only a mile or two apart.


Our larger Tescos have been installing free charging points. For an analysis of the approaches that various manufacturers are taking to electrification I’d recommend taking a look at Sandy Munro’s YouTube channel “ Munro Live “ . They’re “ proper “ engineers. They purchase new electric vehicles and strip them down to the bare chassis, taking apart the motors/ gearboxes / electronics/ batteries etc and discuss the merits / drawbacks of each approach.


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## icowden (13 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> There are bugger all near my caravan in Prestatyn. Those you 'quoted' are miles away from each other, and Anglesey gets then as 'posh' people go there. Where I am in South Manchester, most supermarkets have chargers, and are only a mile or two apart.



Yep, hardly any except for the ubitricity, geniepoint and ev solutions chargers 5 miles from pontins, and the tesla super charger 19 miles from Pontins.
It's like the wilderness out there. Can you park near your caravan (I'm assuming a static) ? Not sure how expensive your power is, but you could also charge there if you can park near your caravan.


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## fossyant (13 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Yep, hardly any except for the ubitricity, geniepoint and ev solutions chargers 5 miles from pontins, and the tesla super charger 19 miles from Pontins.
> It's like the wilderness out there. Can you park near your caravan (I'm assuming a static) ? Not sure how expensive your power is, but you could also charge there if you can park near your caravan.



Leccy supply at a caravan is really sensitive - trips if you use the kettle and another appliance, so a no to a charger. I've considered a Zoe for commuting, but I'm afraid it would have to be a 'third' car. We get free charging at work, but it's all gone to pot now we are only required 2-3 days in the office, and I'll ride there now as I won't be car sharing ! Greener anyway getting the bike out.


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## gbb (14 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Recharging is a lot cheaper than diesel. This article is from 2019 but it makes the point:-
> drive-electric.co.uk/electric-vehicles-vs-petrol-diesel-hybrid/
> 
> Even superchargers are cheaper than Diesel by a fair amount, and Diesel is only going to get more expensive.
> ...


I watched Guys program last night where as part of it, he drove a considerable distance, attempting (sometimes unsuccessfully) to use just superchargers. At the end of the trip they calculated electric charges were considerably more expensive than had he done it in a diesel.


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## cougie uk (14 Aug 2021)

gbb said:


> I watched Guys program last night where as part of it, he drove a considerable distance, attempting (sometimes unsuccessfully) to use just superchargers. At the end of the trip they calculated electric charges were considerably more expensive than had he done it in a diesel.


He was paying 70p a kWh on the motorway. The normal rate is 30p. 

It's almost like he was doing it deliberately.


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## gbb (14 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> He was paying 70p a kWh on the motorway. The normal rate is 30p.
> 
> It's almost like he was doing it deliberately.


Yes he was, the idea was to do the trip (over 1000 miles) in 24 hours. In the end it took him 27 iirc. Using superchargers was central to the attempt...inevitably, theres a (higher) cost.


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## cougie uk (14 Aug 2021)

gbb said:


> Yes he was, the idea was to do the trip (over 1000 miles) in 24 hours. In the end it took him 27 iirc. Using superchargers was central to the attempt...inevitably, theres a (higher) cost.



But he was paying supercharger prices but not getting the faster charging rates. 

Blooming ridiculous to try 1000 miles in a day when the average annual mileage is about 10,000. 

And so unsafe unless he had a co driver ?


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## gbb (14 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> But he was paying supercharger prices but not getting the faster charging rates.
> 
> Blooming ridiculous to try 1000 miles in a day when the average annual mileage is about 10,000.
> 
> And so unsafe unless he had a co driver ?


I did wonder actually how he / they did it, its not advisable to say the least.


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## Pale Rider (16 Aug 2021)

Martin made a fair attempt at a real world long EV journey.

Not everyone can be bothered to research kw/h prices, particularly because at present they are not displayed on a board near the point.

The number of broken chargers is what it is.

And as regards motorways being more expensive, nothing changes there, does it?

Martin did make his journey, proving that it can be done, but the extra faff over slapping in a few tanks of juice is hardly going to encourage anyone who regularly does long journeys to switch to electric.


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## cougie uk (16 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Martin made a fair attempt at a real world long EV journey.
> 
> Not everyone can be bothered to research kw/h prices, particularly because at present they are not displayed on a board near the point.
> 
> ...



1000 miles in 25 hours ? How many people do that ? Especially in the UK. 

It's 30p per kWh on the motorway. It was only 70p as he was wanting to use the ultra fast charging. (that didn't work anyway).

If you're doing a long drive - you'd stop for food and toilets and rest. Just charge when you're doing that. It's not an additional thing like filling up with petrol - you charge whilst you're doing other things.


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## Sittingduck (16 Aug 2021)

How long does it take to do those things roughly, 20 mins or so? Just curious on the faster chargers how much capacity you can charge in the time, assuming there is a charge point available of course? Is it literally like boosting your phone charge and worth it for short periods, dunno...


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## cougie uk (16 Aug 2021)

Last time I charged away from home it was 27 mins on the M6 whilst going to the loo/having a wee. 

I put in 16kwh (my battery is 40) and it cost me £4.80. 

16 kwh takes me about 64 miles. 

That gave me plenty to get back home and I fill up there for cheaper.


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## Pale Rider (16 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> 1000 miles in 25 hours ? How many people do that ? Especially in the UK.
> 
> It's 30p per kWh on the motorway. It was only 70p as he was wanting to use the ultra fast charging. (that didn't work anyway).



It's just an example of a long journey.

The number of broken chargers he found suggests everything in that garden is not rosy.

In turn, that could force a driver into using an expensive one, even if that driver could be bothered to research the various prices.

Regulation aside, if electric cars are to succeed they will have to appeal to 'ordinary' drivers who are merely looking for convenient and cost effective travel.

The experience of early adopters, prepared to pay a lot of money and work at making an electric car work for them, is not relevant to most of us.


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## gzoom (16 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> The experience of early adopters, prepared to pay a lot of money and work at making an electric car work for them, is not relevant to most of us.



I still find it unbelievable so many people come up with excuses to resist any kind of deviation from the status quo.

After our recent 1000miles trip to Scotland in our EV, I've now had the 'OK' from SWMBO to plan the Norway road trip for next year. The plan is to try and book 10 -12 days of leave and do a road trip to cover the major Fjords in Norway. 

You can now buy a used Model S for a little over £25k that will do this trip tomorrow if needed. EVs work absolutely fine, but some people just choose to ignore that fact.


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## midlife (16 Aug 2021)

My max budget for the last car I bought was £4k. 

£25k was way out of my budget, I think that's a good enough excuse. However unbelievable you might find the excuse.


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## Archie_tect (16 Aug 2021)

We traded in my lease car and our 2008 Polo and bought a 70 reg Seat Leon Estate e-Hybrid, 4 month old ex manager's car, for £10800 less than the £32000 new one in the garage... they were like hen's teeth during lockdown - there were 2 manager's cars in the whole of the UK- both in Pentagon Seat in Bolton.

90%+ of our journeys are local [ie less than the car's electric only range of 31-34 real-time miles [it costs £1.70 to charge fully from flat], anything nearer than [say] 10 miles we use the bike or e-tandem!

When we go on longer journeys the petrol engine will do up to 61mpg but that is offset by using hybrid mode which saves the battery for setting off from 0mph, regenerating under braking/downhill to give an average of 109mpg depending on traffic [and wind direction!] typically driving from Newcastle to Sheffield- Oxfordshire drops that to 72mpg [worst case so far].

I couldn't justify the cost of a full electric yet but by the time this hybrid is 10 years old there'll be a sea-change in infrastructure and new models and options available and the second hand market will have stabilised.


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## Pale Rider (16 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> I still find it unbelievable so many people come up with excuses to resist any kind of deviation from the status quo.



No excuses or resistance, it's simply a matter of assessing the options available.

At present, an electric car is significantly more expensive to buy for which you get compromised real world performance in comparison to a smelly diesel.

The overall environmental benefits are questionable.

Some reports of child labour being used in Africa to mine the precious metals used for batteries, which in themselves are a finite resource, same as oil.

At least oil is taken out of the ground by big beefy blokes who are earning decent money.

Dropping £25K on a second hand electric car makes no sense to me when I can get a better diesel one for a lot less.

Further, given that I'm not especially wealthy, spending that amount could be seen as financially irresponsible.

The carrot just isn't going to work, hence the stick due in 2030.

Which is fine, but let's not kid ourselves as to what's going on here.


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## mikeIow (16 Aug 2021)

A definite element of truth in PRs post there....for so many people, EVs are *way* too expensive and chargepoints still far too inaccessible...

Interesting report in a recent AutoExpress about why (how) Norway because such huge adopters....government removed taxes from EVs which had the impact of making them cost the same. Charging infrastructure is ahead of us too - we are getting there, but still very much work in progress. We can learn from their approach 

All that said: our first experience is now 26 months into a Kona EV - 25k miles. 
It is simply brilliant 
Lucky to already have solar (which helps, but only a bit) & easy parking at our detached house. 
We tend to be doing regular (3-4 times a week) 70-mile round trips. 
We also moved to Octopus Energy & got on a very low cost Go tariff - the net effect being that although our electricity usage has doubled per annum, our monthly payments have remained the same (& we are a few hundred in credit), so technically the fuel has cost us nothing (man maths!). If anyone wants a code to join & share £100 between us from them, msg me 😉

The car is simply astonishing - it feels like driving the future 😎
We are lucky to have my older XC60 for runs where we need more capacity, or indeed longer runs where we don't want the hassle of lots of charging (eg, trip to Scotland to move mucho luggage for our offspring, or trips to the tip, or runs to get to the Alps for skiing).....
....but otherwise our go-to car is the Kona, which makes the 2014 XC60 feel like a dinosaur - astonishing acceleration, heated and cooled seats, brilliant adaptive cruise (& lane control) - the tech is superb!

2030 is some years away....I still think a chunk of people will struggle to move to EVs even then, & yes, today battery tech is far from perfect (but so is burning fossil fuels!), & development is cracking on apace to get better at all these things.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, as a smart philosopher once said!


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## gzoom (16 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Dropping £25K on a second hand electric car makes no sense to me when I can get a better diesel one for a lot less.



Am not sure how anyone can think a diesel car can come close to any EV. I traded in a 400bhp twinturbo inline 6 for a Nissan Leaf and haven't looked back since.

EVs are far superior to any combustion engined car.


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## midlife (16 Aug 2021)

We bought our daughter a diesel Smart Fortwo with £22k to spare from the £25k budget you mention.....


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Am not sure how anyone can think a diesel car can come close to any EV. I traded in a 400bhp twinturbo inline 6 for a Nissan Leaf and haven't looked back since.
> 
> EVs are far superior to any combustion engined car.


Not for towing my twin axle and don’t mention Model X as that’s the only one !  However……. I may get around that with hybrid, although I’m also hearing batteries overheat when towing on these.


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

I am in the motor trade and tbh...I think in ten years diesel/petrol will still be king.
I know the sales guys from my local Citroen garage were in with me last week and they tested the new Citroen ev. Makers claim way over 200 on a charge....best the sales guys could manage was 120 which is dire and they said it handles awful.
I see it as a future flop....like water base car paint was in the 00s.
Local council forced my trade to use it and it's nothing but problematic. Slow to apply and has no lasting quality.
Since we have left the EU...we have been able to go back on solvent paint legally but we have been on compliant solvent now for years with no issues.
I don't think battery technology is just there yet for the ev


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> I am in the motor trade and tbh...I think in ten years diesel/petrol will still be king.
> I know the sales guys from my local Citroen garage were in with me last week and they tested the new Citroen ev. Makers claim way over 200 on a charge....best the sales guys could manage was 120 which is dire and they said it handles awful.
> I see it as a future flop....like water base car paint was in the 00s.
> Local council forced my trade to use it and it's nothing but problematic. Slow to apply and has no lasting quality.
> ...


I fear you maybe right, hydrogen fuel cells ?


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I fear you maybe right, hydrogen fuel cells ?


A safer bet I reckon.
I'd lease an ev for a year first as a trial before I'd make my mind up on buying one


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## dave r (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I fear you maybe right, hydrogen fuel cells ?



But is hydrogen as clean as they say it is? Interesting article .

https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...ogen-more-carbon-intensive-than-gas-and-coal/


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> I am in the motor trade and tbh...I think in ten years diesel/petrol will still be king.
> I know the sales guys from my local Citroen garage were in with me last week and they tested the new Citroen ev. Makers claim way over 200 on a charge....best the sales guys could manage was 120 which is dire and they said it handles awful.
> I see it as a future flop....like water base car paint was in the 00s.
> Local council forced my trade to use it and it's nothing but problematic. Slow to apply and has no lasting quality.
> ...


Have you actually driven an EV yourself ?


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## gzoom (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> I am in the motor trade and tbh...I think in ten years diesel/petrol will still be king.



You do know new EV sales are already higher than diesel sales for the last 2 months running and its looking like to stay that way.

Am actually quite surprised on a pedal bike forum there is so much love for diesel?


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I fear you maybe right, hydrogen fuel cells ?



I find this very unlikely to take off. 
I charge on my drive. 
Why would I go out of my way to pump hydrogen ?


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> You do know new EV sales are already higher than diesel sales for the last 2 months running and its looking like to stay that way.
> 
> Am actually quite surprised on a pedal bike forum there is so much love for diesel?


Not just diesel , petrol as well. EV works for some, but not for all. They are here to stay for a long time. Granted the non compliant non euro 6 engines are going to be a problem driving into cities and towns. I own one so that’s something I’m trying to address soonish.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I find this very unlikely to take off.
> I charge on my drive.
> Why would I go out of my way to pump hydrogen ?


I’ve no idea either but you can’t keep mining battery raw materials either , it’s not exactly enviro friendly !! What’s worse ?!


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> You do know new EV sales are already higher than diesel sales for the last 2 months running and its looking like to stay that way.
> 
> Am actually quite surprised on a pedal bike forum there is so much love for diesel?



People don't like change. There's still people on here afraid of carbon fibre. 

Prices will come down for EVs.
Range will probably increase a bit. 
People need to change their mentality from always comparing battery range to a full tank of petrol. (that 99.9% of people would never use without a stop anyway).


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Dropping £25K on a second hand electric car makes no sense to me when I can get a better diesel one for a lot less.
> Further, given that I'm not especially wealthy, spending that amount could be seen as financially irresponsible.
> The carrot just isn't going to work, hence the stick due in 2030.
> Which is fine, but let's not kid ourselves as to what's going on here.



Define "better". 
I agree with you about cost, but you have to concede that the Government hasn't bothered with the Carrot.

For example in California:



> the price of a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus is now $38,490 — at the time this article was originally written. After the $1,500 California Clean Fuel Reward deduction, the price is then reduced down to $36,999.
> 
> California residents can also apply for a $5,000 grant offered by the Clean Vehicle Assistance Program (CVAP). This program has eligibility criteria based on individual or family income.
> 
> ...



So that's a $25,000 car instead of a $38,490 car (as long as you qualify).
In Norway they have incentivised EV purchases so that they are cheaper than ICE purchases.#

in the UK, the deluded morons who run the country have made it more expensive. Because? God knows.



> the discount for Category 1 cars has shrunk from £4,500 to £2,500.
> Today, the grant covers up to 35 per cent of the car’s purchase price, up to a maximum of £2,500, if the car has a list price below £35,000



I agree that even £25k is too expensive for a lot of people, but the prices will start to come down. The biggest obstacle is to convert those with an ICE mindset, that they need to change their thinking.

It's a bit like going back 100 years or so and saying "well, it'll never catch on. There's nowhere to get that oil stuff. I can feed a horse anywhere, and hitch it to the pub rail. ".

In the same way, motor manufacturers need to stop converting ICE cars to electric and actually design electric cars. That's what makes Tesla better than other EVs. 

Of course, it could be a short lived dead end - if Tesla get level 5 self driving I think we will start to see autonomous fleets and more people deciding they no longer really need to own a car.


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## Pale Rider (17 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Am actually quite surprised on a pedal bike forum there is so much love for diesel?



The love is for personable mobility, which most of us are welded to for work and leisure.

It's merely a matter of achieving that in the most cost effective manner.



icowden said:


> Define "better".



Range, general ease of use, like for like accommodation because the fuel tank is smaller/easier to design in than a couple of pallets of batteries, slightly less savage depreciation because the diesel won't be seen as worthless after six or eight years unlike the electric which will need thousands spent on it to make it anything other than a giant door stop, and easier to fix if it breaks because only a tiny number of garages know anything about electric cars.

But I've obviously got the wrong end of the stick somewhere because:



gzoom said:


> EVs are far superior to any combustion engined car.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

No axe to grind with EVs just its doesn’t fit in for me , however it might be something that I consider for the Mrs. Still bothers me thinking about depreciation in them. Future might well be autonomous vehicles , think “ Jonny Cab”


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Have you actually driven an EV yourself ?


It's not the driving....it's the refuelling.
Looking like a plonker sitting at a charge point for 2 hours .
What if you have 3 EVs in your home and everyone needs charged at the same time?
Also....I hate automatic cars.


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Range, general ease of use, like for like accommodation because the fuel tank is smaller/easier to design in than a couple of pallets of batteries, slightly less savage depreciation because the diesel won't be seen as worthless after six or eight years unlike the electric which will need thousands spent on it to make it anything other than a giant door stop, and easier to fix if it breaks because only a tiny number of garages know anything about electric cars.



Accommodation in an EV is usually roomier as there is no engine. Storage capacity is usually greater as there is no engine. 
Most ICE cars lose 60% of their value over 3 years. For EVs this is less than 50% with tesla usually retaining greater than 60% of their value. They have fewer moving parts and can last a lot longer than ICE cars.

A2016 Tesla S P100D with Ludicrous mode will still cost you 70k in 2021 5 years later, only about 30k less than new. A 2017 Model X P90D with 70,000 miles on the clock? Yep £60,000 - again around 30k cheaper than new. So that,s 66% value retained. My 15k Renault Scenic lost 3k as soon as I drove it off the forecourt. Now with 70,000 miles on the clock 'd be lucky to get 2k for it.

EVs need much less servicing. No engine you see (no oil to change, no radiator to top up, no clutch to break). If there is a major problem the dealer will usually (ahem) deal with it. Garages are starting to train to maintain electric cars.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/do-electric-cars-depreciate#gref


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> No axe to grind with EVs just its doesn’t fit in for me , however it might be something that I consider for the Mrs. Still bothers me thinking about depreciation in them. Future might well be autonomous vehicles , think “ Jonny Cab”



I can help. Electric Cars deprecate *less* than ICE cars.


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> It's not the driving....it's the refuelling.
> Looking like a plonker sitting at a charge point for 2 hours .
> What if you have 3 EVs in your home and everyone needs charged at the same time?
> Also....I hate automatic cars.



If you are sat at a charge point for 2 hours you will look like a plonker. Most cars take 30 mins tops for a top up. Getting quicker all the time.
Can you charge 3 phones at the same time? How about 3 phones, 3 ipads, the fridge, the computer, 3 tvs, the oven and all the lights?
You can install the infrastructure to charge multiple EVs. Obviously you will need a big driveway to park 3 cars on.

Alternatively are you really using 3 separate cars to do 100 miles plus per day?

At the end of the day we can indulge in whatabouttery as much as you like, but EVs are going to replace ICE in fairly short order.
Have you driven a Tesla with ludicrous mode (or even without)? If not, I suggest trying it. You will never want a clutch again!


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## Pale Rider (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Accommodation in an EV is usually roomier as there is no engine. Storage capacity is usually greater as there is no engine.



Doesn't look like it from the pictures of rear and front luggage compartments.



icowden said:


> I can help. Electric Cars deprecate *less* than ICE cars.



Try part exchanging an eight year old electric hatchback.

The car will be priced as needing a £5K or more battery pack and therefore next to worthless.

It's the same with ebikes.

Any buyer sees a five year old one as needing a new battery, up to £800, so there is next to nothing left to pay for the bike.


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Try part exchanging an eight year old electric hatchback.
> The car will be priced as needing a £5K or more battery pack and therefore next to worthless.



Whereas an 8 year old diesel is presumably worth millions?

Clue - my 10 year old Renault Grand Scenic has a value of just a little more than zero. If it was pristine, we buy any car would offer me 3k for it. It isn't. They won't.


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Accommodation in an EV is usually roomier as there is no engine. Storage capacity is usually greater as there is no engine.
> Most ICE cars lose 60% of their value over 3 years. For EVs this is less than 50% with tesla usually retaining greater than 60% of their value. They have fewer moving parts and can last a lot longer than ICE cars.
> 
> A2016 Tesla S P100D with Ludicrous mode will still cost you 70k in 2021 5 years later, only about 30k less than new. A 2017 Model X P90D with 70,000 miles on the clock? Yep £60,000 - again around 30k cheaper than new. So that,s 66% value retained. My 15k Renault Scenic lost 3k as soon as I drove it off the forecourt. Now with 70,000 miles on the clock 'd be lucky to get 2k for it.
> ...


Except unlike you, not everyone can afford / or justify (in my case) a 70-100k Tesla new (so the lower depreciation is utterly irrelevant, ditto the lower 'fuelling' costs) (or indeed the lease/loan costs to get one)

I think you mean depreciate not deprecate in your other post too 

My Skoda cost me around 12k in 2013 (under a year old, 4k on clock...Skoda had in their management fleet and took the 6k loss), still only got 30k on clock (another reason why an EV car is of minimal interest to me), perhaps worth half that now, losing £30k on a Tesla 8 years seems like pretty poor depreciation (even if it is *only* 33%)

Yes a Tesla might make sense compared to a 100k diesel or petrol Audi/RR/BMW/Mercedes behemoth but not against the average family saloon or hatchback...and the behemoth buyer is evidently the market Teslas are currently aimed at it seems given the cost (and the big ones are every bit as ugly imo)


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> If you are sat at a charge point for 2 hours you will look like a plonker. Most cars take 30 mins tops for a top up. Getting quicker all the time.
> Can you charge 3 phones at the same time? How about 3 phones, 3 ipads, the fridge, the computer, 3 tvs, the oven and all the lights?
> You can install the infrastructure to charge multiple EVs. Obviously you will need a big driveway to park 3 cars on.
> 
> ...


We can indulge , how are we going to supply enough power to recharge all these EV vehicles? I agree we cannot go on for ever with emissions but EV is part answer only.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Accommodation in an EV is usually roomier as there is no engine. Storage capacity is usually greater as there is no engine.
> Most ICE cars lose 60% of their value over 3 years. For EVs this is less than 50% with tesla usually retaining greater than 60% of their value. They have fewer moving parts and can last a lot longer than ICE cars.
> 
> A2016 Tesla S P100D with Ludicrous mode will still cost you 70k in 2021 5 years later, only about 30k less than new. A 2017 Model X P90D with 70,000 miles on the clock? Yep £60,000 - again around 30k cheaper than new. So that,s 66% value retained. My 15k Renault Scenic lost 3k as soon as I drove it off the forecourt. Now with 70,000 miles on the clock 'd be lucky to get 2k for it.
> ...


Funny my bro in law had to buy a roof box and then slim down even more what they could carry for a camping weekend in the Tesla. They took the BMW away the second week as not enough room. To be fair probably bought the wrong car. A toyota might have been better but in all seriousness the X5 he had before would have worked out better , cost wise. Anyway digressing .


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> We can indulge , how are we going to supply enough power to recharge all these EV vehicles? I agree we cannot go on for ever with emissions but EV is part answer only.


Burning fossil fuels?


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## gzoom (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> It's not the driving....it's the refuelling.
> Looking like a plonker sitting at a charge point for 2 hours .
> What if you have 3 EVs in your home and everyone needs charged at the same time?
> Also....I hate automatic cars.



I've never sat at a charger for 2 hrs in 5 years of having an EV as our main car. Infact on our recent 1020 mile trip to Scotland I had to move the car from the charger because the humans weren't ready to travel and car was at 100% charge.

Do you think charging EVs requires magic? If you have a spare plug socket at home you can charge an EV, or do you only have 1 plug socket.

As for 'hating' automatics, what more needs to be said when even Porsche and Ferrari sell essentially only automatics these days....may be you are the odd one out? Yet you work in the motor trade?


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Funny my bro in law had to buy a roof box and then slim down even more what they could carry for a camping weekend in the Tesla.



Yes, an X is more practical for things like camping. One reason why I haven't looked at a Model 3. I quite fancy a Y when it is available (unlike @gzoom I can't afford an X <sob>).


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Burning fossil fuels?



Nah. Renewables. Wind and solar.


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Nah. Renewables. Wind and solar.


You think there’ll be enough capacity?


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## gzoom (17 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> The love is for personable mobility, which most of us are welded to for work and leisure.



Why don't you think EVs give you personal freedom? Ours has taken us everywhere around the UK and to France. Next year we will be hitting the Fjords of Norway in it......

How much more personal freedom do you want??


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> You think there’ll be enough capacity?


That’s my point as well no chance ! Solar and heat pumps instead of gas boilers is the other thing touted. Just not practical.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Why don't you think EVs give you personal freedom? Ours has taken us everywhere around the UK and to France. Next year we will be hitting the Fjords of Norway in it......
> 
> How much more personal freedom do you want??


Once we all are driving EVs will there be enough charge points everywhere you go? Infrastructure is miles behind here from what I can see. Unless charging at home.


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Except unlike you, not everyone can afford / or justify (in my case) a 70-100k Tesla new (so the lower depreciation is utterly irrelevant, ditto the lower 'fuelling' costs) (or indeed the lease/loan costs to get one)
> 
> I think you mean depreciate not deprecate in your other post too
> 
> ...



Oh I can't afford one. I'd *like* one. But I can't afford one. I'm hoping to afford the Tesla Y when it comes out in the UK. 
However, the argument was that EVs depreciate more than ICE cars. They just don't. 

A new Skoda Octavia is 22k. A 2013 Skoda Octaia with 30k on the clock seems to be about 8k. A depreciation of nearly 66%. Double the EVs I cited.
In 2019 the Nissan Leaf 2 was 22k on launch in the UK. An 8 year old Nissan Leaf with 30k miles is around 10k.

I agree with you that they are still too expensive, and Tesla is working its way down to the affordable EV, but isn't there yet. The Model 3 was supposed to be affordable but is still at the luxury end of affordable, so there is work to do. However the Government could help (as many other governments do) with incentives rather than disincentives.


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Once we all are driving EVs will there be enough charge points everywhere you go? Infrastructure is miles behind here from what I can see. Unless charging at home.



Again, you are thinking like a petrol car driver. As Gzoom and I have pointed out. You DON'T NEED TO CHARGE EVERYWHERE. You start every day with a *full* tank. Yes, if you live somewhere where you cannot charge at home, they are much more problematic. 

As I have also said, I think soon we will reach a point where car ownership declines. I used to live in London. I had no need to own a car.


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## gzoom (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Once we all are driving EVs will there be enough charge points everywhere you go? Infrastructure is miles behind here from what I can see. Unless charging at home.



Why wouldn't rapid charging site expand in number as EV numbers grow, they have done so already in recent years.

Some people seem to have unfounded fears about EV ownership. We are lucky enough as a family we can afford just about any car on the market (sub 6 figures), and I can tell you I don't like inconvenience nor hassle.

Do you honestly think I wouldn't have sold our EV by now if living with one was some horrific experience some people on here think it is?? Why would I do that?? I once swapped cars 3 times in 10 months, so I can reassure you I have zero issues shifting out of cars I don't enjoy owning.

Instead am now planning a 3000 mile road trip to Norway in our EV. How many people have driven their combustion cars on a 3000 mile road trip??

EVs work, and work fine. The only barrier is cost which is coming down, and fairly quickly.


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Oh I can't afford one. I'd *like* one. But I can't afford one. I'm hoping to afford the Tesla Y when it comes out in the UK.
> However, the argument was that EVs depreciate more than ICE cars. They just don't.
> 
> A new Skoda Octavia is 22k. A 2013 Skoda Octaia with 30k on the clock seems to be about 8k. A depreciation of nearly 66%. Double the EVs I cited.
> ...


I assumed you have a Tesla.

I'm not sure why the % depreciation is relevant, for me it's the actual ££ amount... the % says nothing unless you're comparing two 100k cars maybe and one loses 30k and one 40k.

Why should the Government encourage what are more large cars onto the road? Or indeed any cars onto the road, they should be encouraging active travel not the ferrying of children to school in EVs (as opposed to petrol 4x4)


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## Pale Rider (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Whereas an 8 year old diesel is presumably worth millions?



No, but it will be priced as a viable buy for the next owner, rather than a brick on wheels that needs thousands spending on it.

The 2012 Vauxhall Meriva I part ex-ed a year or so ago was similar to your Scenic.

Close to 100,000 miles, but everything worked and it was about as tidy as could be expected.

It made a couple of grand against a much newer and lower mileage Focus.



gzoom said:


> Why don't you think EVs give you personal freedom?



That is not what I said.

What I did say is we are all welded to on demand personal mobility, so it's about the best way to achieve that.

An electric car could give me the mobility I seek, as can a diesel.

At present, the diesel is a lot cheaper overall and more convenient, so that's what I've bought.

If the electric car was cheaper and more convenient, I'd buy one of those.


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> I've never sat at a charger for 2 hrs in 5 years of having an EV as our main car. Infact on our recent 1020 mile trip to Scotland I had to move the car from the charger because the humans weren't ready to travel and car was at 100% charge.
> 
> Do you think charging EVs requires magic? If you have a spare plug socket at home you can charge an EV, or do you only have 1 plug socket.
> 
> As for 'hating' automatics, what more needs to be said when even Porsche and Ferrari sell essentially only automatics these days....may be you are the odd one out? Yet you work in the motor trade?


Come to northern Ireland and see how you feel about EVs after a month living here.
I'd never have any desire to own a Porsche or Ferrari
Because I'm in the trade does not necessarily mean I am passionate about cars....the opposite in fact.
There are very few EVs in northern Ireland...the diesel still rules supreme here above everything else. 
I think in my home town there are maybe 3 charge points and it's a medium sized town. I'd expect in the mainland to be better.
Personally... If I won an ev....I'd have on auto trader within the week


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> Come to northern Ireland and see how you feel about EVs after a month living here.
> I'd never have any desire to own a Porsche or Ferrari
> Because I'm in the trade does not necessarily mean I am passionate about cars....the opposite in fact.
> There are very few EVs in northern Ireland...the diesel still rules supreme here above everything else.
> ...



Just because you're in the trade doesn't mean you understand EVs either...

If you don't have parking or you tow a caravan everywhere then don't get an electric. 

For the vast majority of us EV works now. 

Every day the car is full when I leave home. I visit charging stations about twice a year. No queuing for petrol - and have you noticed it's always blowing a gale and freezing when you need to refill ?

Less servicing costs. Less to go wrong. Less fuel costs. Great in traffic as no fiddling with gears. Faster acceleration than normal cars. 

No way would I go back.


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> It's not the driving....it's the refuelling.
> Looking like a plonker sitting at a charge point for 2 hours .
> What if you have 3 EVs in your home and everyone needs charged at the same time?
> Also....I hate automatic cars.



This is the whole point. You don't know what you're talking about. 
Nobody is spending two hours sitting at a charge point. 

As to charging multiple cars - all you need is a socket. That's just slower than the EV charging point but presumably people sleep ? Charge up overnight


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> This is the whole point. You don't know what you're talking about.
> Nobody is spending two hours sitting at a charge point.
> 
> As to charging multiple cars - all you need is a socket. That's just slower than the EV charging point but presumably people sleep ? Charge up overnight


And run the cable up the street 50 m to the car?
Yup....great idea


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> And run the cable up the street 50 m to the car?
> Yup....great idea


You've three cars but no space to park them ? You'll be better off when the self driving cabs come around.


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You've three cars but no space to park them ? You'll be better off when the self driving cabs come around.


I don't have 3 cars yet but with two daughters fast approaching 17...I most likley will have 3 cars all parked on the street.
And those that live in flats....just toss the cable out the window and run it down the side of the building? 🤣
I think we have to agree to disagree.
Anyway....I couldn't afford to buy an ev so it will not really apply to me.


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> I don't have 3 cars yet but with two daughters fast approaching 17...I most likley will have 3 cars all parked on the street.
> And those that live in flats....just toss the cable out the window and run it down the side of the building? 🤣
> I think we have to agree to disagree.
> Anyway....I couldn't afford to buy an ev so it will not really apply to me.


Get them bikes not cars


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Get them bikes not cars


I did...lol they used them twice and have lay unused since.
The youth of today !!!!


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> I did...lol they used them twice and have lay unused since.
> The youth of today !!!!


Shanks’s pony then


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## MrGrumpy (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Shanks’s pony then


The issues for some of our young is travel to and from work is not all that straight forward. We do t all live in large towns and cities with cheap public transport, far from it ! A car can be cheaper in the long run?!


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

They're 17...how do they get wherever they're going now?


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> I'm not sure why the % depreciation is relevant, for me it's the actual ££ amount... the % says nothing unless you're comparing two 100k cars maybe and one loses 30k and one 40k.
> 
> Why should the Government encourage what are more large cars onto the road? Or indeed any cars onto the road, they should be encouraging active travel not the ferrying of children to school in EVs (as opposed to petrol 4x4)



Wasn't me that brought up depreciation. That was brought up as a reason not to own an EV - which is erroneous as depreciation is better on EVs than ICE.
The government should be encouraging a move away from fossil fuel powered cars (just as Norway and California are doing). This is about encouraging people to swap their gas guzzler for something hopefully that will help preserve the planet a bit longer by not burning stuff.

Active travel is obviously far better and I would love to see more and better cycling infrastructure. For example cycling to school is forbidden at the school my daughter attends, due to the access being from a very busy and unsafe road. Happily Surrey are supposed to be installing new cycle infrastructure. Hopefully it won't be rubbish, but I have my doubts.


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> The issues for some of our young is travel to and from work is not all that straight forward. We do t all live in large towns and cities with cheap public transport, far from it ! A car can be cheaper in the long run?!


Come to where I live in northern Ireland....3 buses a day and no Sunday service at all.
Public transport here doesn't really exist almost


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> Come to where I live in northern Ireland....3 buses a day and no Sunday service at all.
> Public transport here doesn't really exist almost


There are however quite a few chargers / superchargers about in NI. Which bit are you in?

Incidentally, I think often that people just think there aren't many about. Those that do drive EVs (or who look on a map in my case) are aware that there are probably more about than you think. NI has 337 ESB chargers which are free to use for a start. There aren't many Tesla chargers, that's true.


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## roubaixtuesday (17 Aug 2021)

Are Tesla chargers exclusively for Tesla owners, or can others pay to use them?

Seems absolutely crazy if exclusive.


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Are Tesla chargers exclusively for Tesla owners, or can others pay to use them?
> 
> Seems absolutely crazy if exclusive.


It is currently exclusive, but Musk has announced that they are going to open up to all EVs later this year. The exclusivity was previously due to free charging and the Tesla designed charging cable which doesn't work for other cars.

Non tesla drivers will need a Type 2 or CCS socket or to buy a conversion kit.


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## Peugeotrider (17 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> There are however quite a few chargers / superchargers about in NI. Which bit are you in?
> 
> Incidentally, I think often that people just think there aren't many about. Those that do drive EVs (or who look on a map in my case) are aware that there are probably more about than you think. NI has 337 ESB chargers which are free to use for a start. There aren't many Tesla chargers, that's true.


Dungannon county Tyrone 
I know of 3-4 charge points in the town,one at the petrol station at the end of my road and two at the local shopping centre.
I work in a busy body shop here and of every 40 cars that come through our door, one in forty will either be hybrid or full ev.
Maybe 6 will be petrol and the remainder diesel cars


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## icowden (17 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> Dungannon county Tyrone
> I know of 3-4 charge points in the town,one at the petrol station at the end of my road and two at the local shopping centre.
> I work in a busy body shop here and of every 40 cars that come through our door, one in forty will either be hybrid or full ev.
> Maybe 6 will be petrol and the remainder diesel cars


So that's 6 chargers in your area alone. As I said. Most EVs most of the time won't need to use them.


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## cougie uk (18 Aug 2021)

7 according to Zap Map.


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## Peugeotrider (18 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> 7 according to Zap Map.


Checked the address
3 are within the town's boundaries,the other 4 are in the borough of the dungannon area


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## cougie uk (18 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> Checked the address
> 3 are within the town's boundaries,the other 4 are in the borough of the dungannon area


So that's what - a 2 mile drive to the furthest one ? That's probably more in your area than petrol stations. And it's only going to increase. 

A 36 bay charging station and coffee lounge has just been announced near me. I shall definitely ride down and grab a coffee - I can't see me needing to charge the car there though.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> So that's what - a 2 mile drive to the furthest one ? That's probably more in your area than petrol stations. And it's only going to increase.
> 
> A 36 bay charging station and coffee lounge has just been announced near me. I shall definitely ride down and grab a coffee - I can't see me needing to charge the car there though.


Lucky you its taken 3 months to make a start on an EV charge point at our local supermarket car park and its still not finished ! Just googled EV chargers around my work and there are a few. However much talk about EV cars and the amount on the road apart from the odd Tesla ( silly money ) its really only Nissan leafs round these parts. Hybrids , well thats a different kettle of fish. Plenty of those everywhere you look. Got a long way to go to convince the masses. As said numerous times more EV vehicles is not going to solve the climate crisis !! Less cars will.


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## cougie uk (18 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Lucky you its taken 3 months to make a start on an EV charge point at our local supermarket car park and its still not finished ! Just googled EV chargers around my work and there are a few. However much talk about EV cars and the amount on the road apart from the odd Tesla ( silly money ) its really only Nissan leafs round these parts. Hybrids , well thats a different kettle of fish. Plenty of those everywhere you look. Got a long way to go to convince the masses. As said numerous times more EV vehicles is not going to solve the climate crisis !! Less cars will.


There's loads of EVs on the roads round here. VW, Jag, Volvo, Hyundai, Renault, Mini. Most of them you won't know they are electric unless you see them charging. 

Completely agree with you about the climate crisis. The more facilities we have for walking, cycling and public transport the better.


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## Tenkaykev (18 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> There's loads of EVs on the roads round here. VW, Jag, Volvo, Hyundai, Renault, Mini. Most of them you won't know they are electric unless you see them charging.
> 
> Completely agree with you about the climate crisis. The more facilities we have for walking, cycling and public transport the better.


There’s a small vertical green stripe on the number plates of the non hybrid vehicles.


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## vickster (18 Aug 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> There’s a small vertical green stripe on the number plates of the non hybrid vehicles.


Only seems to be the newest ones? Eg not a 3 year old Tesla as standard


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## icowden (18 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Only seems to be the newest ones? Eg not a 3 year old Tesla as standard


It was announced in June 2020 with plates available from December 2020.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Aug 2021)

That there is part of the problem. Is EV just for those wealthy enough to have their own drive  .


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## Milzy (18 Aug 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I recorded the Guy Martin programme about building the fastest accelerating road-legal electric car
> I saw the series that 'Mog' was associated with _'Vintage Voltage_' & there was some nice cars in it
> But, that Beetle is lovely
> The VW pick-up looks scary, with the rolling burnout!
> ...


Great program worth a watch. However I’d bet if I was driving that Skoda of yours the average mph would be a lot less 🤣


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## cougie uk (18 Aug 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> There’s a small vertical green stripe on the number plates of the non hybrid vehicles.


That's optional - there's no easy way to know if it's an EV or not.


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## geocycle (18 Aug 2021)

Anyone come across the MG ZS. Looks like a useful sized vehicle for family duties and moving bikes when needed. Son is thinking of buying one.


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## gzoom (18 Aug 2021)

geocycle said:


> Anyone come across the MG ZS. Looks like a useful sized vehicle for family duties and moving bikes when needed. Son is thinking of buying one.



All the reviews says its a great value EV.


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## Pale Rider (18 Aug 2021)

Relevant Carwow ad at the top of my page.

The MG ZS is given a headline price of £21,000 compared to the very similar looking Hyundai Kona at £27,500.

But a petrol Kona is £18,500, which makes it a far superior ownership prospect for Kona fans.

Cheap leccy and slightly cheaper servicing (possibly) will never make up for the missing ten grand, and the savage depreciation of both vehicles will, of course, cost the electric Kona owner more in cash terms.


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## Milkfloat (18 Aug 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> I don't have 3 cars yet but with two daughters fast approaching 17...I most likley will have 3 cars all parked on the street.
> And those that live in flats....just toss the cable out the window and run it down the side of the building? 🤣


I am currently working on an infrastructure project which if it goes ahead could see well over a hundred thousands lamposts being converted to EV chargers. That should make quite a dent in the charging needs of the nation.


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## Jenkins (19 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I am currently working on an infrastructure project which if it goes ahead could see well over a hundred thousands lamposts being converted to EV chargers. That should make quite a dent in the charging needs of the nation.


As long as they don't cut the electricity when the light is switched off at midnight, like they are around here


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## gavroche (19 Aug 2021)

Can someone answer this question? When the batteries come to the end of their useful life, what happens to them ?
Also, electric cars cost more than diesel when recharging as Guy Martin demonstrated when he did Lejog with an electric vehicle. Cost of electricity: £204 compared to £140 on diesel .


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## Richard A Thackeray (19 Aug 2021)

Milzy said:


> Great program worth a watch. However I’d bet if I was driving that Skoda of yours the average mph would be a lot less 🤣


It certainly was never that good, when my wife was the primary driver of it


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## gzoom (19 Aug 2021)

gavroche said:


> Can someone answer this question? When the batteries come to the end of their useful life, what happens to them ?



The packs get taken apart and good cells used in all kinds of stuff from DIY EV conversion projects to home battery storage. Even eBike batteries use the same cells as those found in most EV packs.

The world is currently desperate for lithium ion cells, I suspect pretty much every single 'scrapped' EV have had their battery packs opened up and the vast majority of cells recycled for future use.

Lithium ion cells actually last a long long time if not subjected to high discharge and recharge rates, easily decades if not longer. When most packs 'fail' its often just one group of cells out of a dozen, sometimes even just on cell from a pack containing 1000s of cells.

Given the newest EVs are only 10 years old we are probably another decade away from truly having to break down cells to their raw materials and recycling them.

When my last EV was written off in an accident, the battery pack appeared on eBay within 24hrs of the insurance company officially taking ownership of the car, and the pack was 'sold' again within 24hrs for around £17k.


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

gavroche said:


> Also, electric cars cost more than diesel when recharging as Guy Martin demonstrated when he did Lejog with an electric vehicle. Cost of electricity: £204 compared to £140 on diesel .



If you are an utter plonker and only charge at superchargers on the motorway it will cost you more. For most people you will charge at home and find nicer places if you do need to supercharge. Do you fill up with Diesel on the motorway? I know I don't.

Further, he did his "test" in a converted ICE car and not in a properly designed EV. There is a reason that Tesla are best for long journeys, and cheaper, more efficient charging along with longer range is just part of that. They are designed to be electric. 

Then of course, as time goes on Diesel is going to become more expensive as demand drops...


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> The MG ZS is given a headline price of £21,000 compared to the very similar looking Hyundai Kona at £27,500.
> But a petrol Kona is £18,500, which makes it a far superior ownership prospect for Kona fans.
> 
> Cheap leccy and slightly cheaper servicing (possibly) will never make up for the missing ten grand, and the savage depreciation of both vehicles will, of course, cost the electric Kona owner more in cash terms.



Again, EVs do not haver the savage depreciation (yet) that ICE vehicles have. The newer the EV the less the depreciation.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I am currently working on an infrastructure project which if it goes ahead could see well over a hundred thousands lamposts being converted to EV chargers. That should make quite a dent in the charging needs of the nation.


That’s more the sort of thing that needs rolled out. I was also thinking induction charging , similar to your wireless mobile ?


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## MrGrumpy (19 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Again, EVs do not haver the savage depreciation (yet) that ICE vehicles have. The newer the EV the less the depreciation.


Yes but still £10k more !? In that examples . I think we can all agree that we will all move to EV , it’s when !!


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## Tenkaykev (19 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I am currently working on an infrastructure project which if it goes ahead could see well over a hundred thousands lamposts being converted to EV chargers. That should make quite a dent in the charging needs of the nation.


I'd thought about the practicalities of this. With the street lighting being low power, the cabling to them would be quite a small guage as copper is expensive and you size the conductor to the load. Can you shed any light ( no pun intended ) as to what sort of power would be available? ( I'm very much pro schemes such as this, a lamp post could have a connector either side parallel to the road direction allowing two cars per post )


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes but still £10k more !? In that examples . I think we can all agree that we will all move to EV , it’s when !!



Don't forget you need to take the 2.5k UK EV Grant off that price. As I said before, if Boris and his cronies were actually serious they wouldn't have reduced the EV grant from 4.5k to 2.5k. Other countries are actually encouraging people to go greener.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Aug 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> I'd thought about the practicalities of this. With the street lighting being low power, the cabling to them would be quite a small guage as copper is expensive and you size the conductor to the load. Can you shed any light ( no pun intended ) as to what sort of power would be available? ( I'm very much pro schemes such as this, a lamp post could have a connector either side parallel to the road direction allowing two cars per post )


I’m seeing a couple of commando sockets  , however yes I would of thought the current draw would be big on these batteries ? Not sure whatsize of cabling is used on street lighting ?


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## Tenkaykev (19 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> That’s more the sort of thing that needs rolled out. I was also thinking induction charging , similar to your wireless mobile ?


I think induction charging is a dead end as it is comparatively inefficient and maintenance would be an issue. Cars would need to carry round induction coils on the bottom of the vehicle which is extra weight and expense which would affect range, the coils embedded in the charge stations would need cooling, the charge rate would vary depending on the distance between the vehicle charge coils and those in the charge station etc ( inverse square law ) It's trotted out as a solution every so often, but I can't see it as any sort of practical solution.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Aug 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> I think induction charging is a dead end as it is comparatively inefficient and maintenance would be an issue. Cars would need to carry round induction coils on the bottom of the vehicle which is extra weight and expense which would affect range, the coils embedded in the charge stations would need cooling, the charge rate would vary depending on the distance between the vehicle charge coils and those in the charge station etc ( inverse square law ) It's trotted out as a solution every so often, but I can't see it as any sort of practical solution.


What might be better was a standardised battery pack . Slots in and out, you exchange your battery every so often? That might get round the issues of dud batteries .


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## Pale Rider (19 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Again, EVs do not haver the savage depreciation (yet) that ICE vehicles have. The newer the EV the less the depreciation.



You keep on asserting this, but a quick straw poll of online articles suggest EVs depreciate at least as much as ICE cars.

I think @Archie_tect bought a nearly new hybrid which had depreciated by about a third - the same as you would expect with any nearly new car.

Nothing to suggest the EV will somehow magically hold its value thereafter any better than an ICE one.

Further, Archie's car was in short supply, so goodness know what will happen if there is a glut.

Published depreciation figures don't tend to take into account older vehicles because none of the fleet operators are interested in them.

However, many of us will end up selling, if not buying, an older vehicle.

A tidy diesel engined car with 100,000 miles is still seen as having some life in it.

A tidy electric car with the same mileage will, rightly or wrongly, be seen as in need of a new battery pack, particularly if it is eight or 10 years old.

The pack will be thousands, effectively rendering the car worthless, particularly when a buyer can get a similar age and mileage diesel for £3k-£4k.

The motor trade takes no prisoners, so a tired old EV will be marked down just as savagely as an ICE car, or rather more so because of the thousands it will need spending on it.


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## Tenkaykev (19 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> What might be better was a standardised battery pack . Slots in and out, you exchange your battery every so often? That might get round the issues of dud batteries .


That's been looked into too, and the practicalities make it a non starter. Batteries are heavy, several hundred Kg. Each manufacturer has come up with their own design of battery pack and drive motor. The battery packs aren't just cells, they contain coolant channels, interconnects and electronics. For a fascinating look at what is actually inside the various cars, battery packs and electric drive motors / gearboxes, Sandy Munro of Munro Live channel on YouTube takes these apart, all the way down to just the frame of the car. Well worth a look for a deeper understanding of what's happening in Electric vehicle design.


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’m seeing a couple of commando sockets  , however yes I would of thought the current draw would be big on these batteries ? Not sure whatsize of cabling is used on street lighting ?



https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen_3_Wall_Connector_Manual_UK.pdf

This is the installation manual for a tesla home wall charger. With a 230v single phase supply you need an output between 6A and 32A (obviously the higher you can go the faster the charging). A 3 phase supply is better and a 400v supply best (as far as I can see - not an electrician!). 

Presumably as streetlights are being swapped to led, there is surplus power available for tapping.


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> You keep on asserting this, but a quick straw poll of online articles suggest EVs depreciate at least as much as ICE cars.
> I think @Archie_tect bought a nearly new hybrid which had depreciated by about a third - the same as you would expect with any nearly new car.



If you are going to debate about this, you need to get straight in your head that a hybrid is NOT an EV.

EV = Solely electric
ICE = Solely fossil fuel
Hybrid = ICE with an extra battery to get around government regulations and make the company look like they are doing something about emissions.

So yes, Archie's hybrid would have depreciated. A pure EV however :

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/do-electric-cars-depreciate#gref


> In fact, according to our data, electric cars buck the industry trend because on average EVs retain 48.9% of their value after three years or 36,000 miles.


https://www.drive-electric.co.uk/do-electric-cars-depreciate/


> The depreciation of electric vehicles stacks up well compared to petrol cars, which usually depreciate the fastest. Diesels have also seen higher depreciation in recent years, in part due to the controversy surrounding the diesel emissions scandal.


https://fullycharged.show/blog/surprisingly-positive-news-on-electric-vehicle-depreciation/


> On 29th August 2019, This Is Money ran an article that claimed that electric vehicles depreciate up to twice as quickly as petrol or diesel cars. Nothing could be further from the truth.



This one should be entitled cheap badly designed electric cars get hammered on residual values for now but all the good ones don;t.
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a34739112/evs-get-hammered-on-residual-values-for-now/


> Just like everything with electric cars—range, charge speed, market share—we expect residual values to go up in time as these vehicles are more widely adopted and accepted. Check out the Mach-E Club for a few more lines of residual values in the Mach-E’s various trims.


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## Tenkaykev (19 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/support/charging/Gen_3_Wall_Connector_Manual_UK.pdf
> 
> This is the installation manual for a tesla home wall charger. With a 230v single phase supply you need an output between 6A and 32A (obviously the higher you can go the faster the charging). A 3 phase supply is better and a 400v supply best (as far as I can see - not an electrician!).
> 
> Presumably as streetlights are being swapped to led, there is surplus power available for tapping.


Almost all UK homes have a single phase 240 volt supply. LED street lighting is more efficient than High Pressure Sodium, but as High power LED's are used in street lighting and High Pressure Sodium lamps are usually. 250 or 400 Watts there's not a lot of extra power floating around anyway.


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Published depreciation figures don't tend to take into account older vehicles because none of the fleet operators are interested in them.
> However, many of us will end up selling, if not buying, an older vehicle.
> A tidy diesel engined car with 100,000 miles is still seen as having some life in it.
> A tidy electric car with the same mileage will, rightly or wrongly, be seen as in need of a new battery pack, particularly if it is eight or 10 years old.



On this bit we agree mostly. A car with 100,000 miles even driven by a nice old granny in pristine condition is rarely worth very much at all. An EV on the other hand might raise concerns about how long the battery pack will last. However this risk is pretty transient and Tesla are working on their million mile battery which will greatly reduce EV costs and obviously last a *lot* longer.

https://electrek.co/2020/10/18/tesla-battery-test-results-over-2-million-miles/


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## MrGrumpy (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> You keep on asserting this, but a quick straw poll of online articles suggest EVs depreciate at least as much as ICE cars.
> 
> I think @Archie_tect bought a nearly new hybrid which had depreciated by about a third - the same as you would expect with any nearly new car.
> 
> ...


100% with you in that. The ban on fossil fuel powered cars is happening. However that does not mean an end to them. Now you can raise fuel duties and force the change for everyone but before you do that you best have your sh…t together and have charging points etc all readily available. At the moment we are behind and I’m not seeing any need for me to rush out and trade in mine . I would be more inclined to buy a hybrid instead !


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## Pale Rider (19 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> On this bit we agree mostly. A car with 100,000 miles even driven by a nice old granny in pristine condition is rarely worth very much at all. An EV on the other hand might raise concerns about how long the battery pack will last. However this risk is pretty transient and Tesla are working on their million mile battery which will greatly reduce EV costs and obviously last a *lot* longer.
> 
> https://electrek.co/2020/10/18/tesla-battery-test-results-over-2-million-miles/



If you are in the habit of buying a new car and selling it after three or four years then you can fairly reliably predict depreciation.

However, the market for older EVs has yet to be established because there are still relatively few of them.

I suspect there's going to be some very disappointed motorists when they attempt to part exchange their eight year old EV which they bought when it was three years old.

A million mile battery would largely cure that problem, but I am always wary of the speed of implementation of new technology.

If all Teslas had such a battery tomorrow, it would still be another eight or 10 years before the average motorist in the secondhand market would reap the benefit.

It's unclear to me when or if Tesla's million mile battery will reach the market, but I've lost count of the number of promising lab bench battery innovations which are never seen again.

Also worth bearing in mind energy density of lithium ion cells has hardly improved in the last 10 years.

Extra range at present can only be achieved with extra batteries, a situation which is unlikely to change anytime soon.

Unless someone can design a far more efficient motor, but that's another technology which moves forward about as fast as a Tesla with a flat battery.


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Extra range at present can only be achieved with extra batteries, a situation which is unlikely to change anytime soon.



But we have now got really good range in EVs, quite sufficient for most people's day to day use. Very few people need to be able to drive over 300 miles per day in a standard domestic car. My Diesel always *says* it has a range of 550 miles fully fuelled. It doesn't. I have yet to drive more than 150 miles without someone needing a wee / food / drink etc.

My longest journey this year was Surrey to Alton Towers about 160 miles. Not enough range for a short range Tesla to get there and back. But with a 20 minute top up at the services - no problem. In a Leaf - still doable, but might require two stops if not well planned.

I think we can take it for granted that there are people like yourself who remain deeply sceptical and who cannot let go of their ICE mindset, but as prices come down and the push continues, I think we will easily see many more EVs on the road. The biggest spanner in the works is likely to be the Tesla Robotaxi when it comes online. I think at that point more people will start to question whether they need to own a car at all.


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## Tenkaykev (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> If you are in the habit of buying a new car and selling it after three or four years then you can fairly reliably predict depreciation.
> 
> However, the market for older EVs has yet to be established because there are still relatively few of them.
> 
> ...


There are several design factors involved but electric motors are already 80-90% + efficient.


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## icowden (19 Aug 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> There are several design factors involved but electric motors are already 80-90% + efficient.


And of course Diesel / Petrol motors are only about 40% efficient tops.


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## Pale Rider (19 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> I think we can take it for granted that there are people like yourself who remain deeply sceptical and who cannot let go of their ICE mindset,



I do wish you would stop telling me how I think, particularly when your crystal ball is so opaque.

I will buy a car which is most suited to my needs, so in that respect I couldn't give a stuff what powers it.

You seem to accept that range is not going anywhere anytime soon, so we are largely stuck with what it currently available.

About 200 miles sounds OK, but it takes no account of range anxiety.

Even with a diesel, I've had occasional concerns when getting stuck in a big jam on the motorway or when doing unplanned extra miles due to navigation fails, or if my chosen filling station is unexpectedly shut or has no diesel.

Any driver will want to keep some miles/an hour or two of crawling time in hand for such eventualities.

Thus a range of 200 miles is really closer to a comfortable range of 150 miles or less.

Plenty for most fixed commutes or shopping trips, although in my case I can be dispatched elsewhere at short notice so I need to start a working day with plenty of fuel just in case.

Longer journeys which go entirely to plan could be managed, although I'm not very encouraged to learn that faster charging can cost more than diesel.

Paying more for refuelling which takes significantly longer may make sense to you, but it seems daft to me.



icowden said:


> And of course Diesel / Petrol motors are only about 40% efficient tops.



A lot more headroom for development which presumably has stalled due to upcoming legislation.

The battle appears lost, but I wonder if an ever more efficient ICE could make better use of one finite resource - oil - than batteries make of another - precious metals.


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## cougie uk (19 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> What might be better was a standardised battery pack . Slots in and out, you exchange your battery every so often? That might get round the issues of dud batteries .



Batteries are too integral to the design of the car. If you really need to - you can take out the battery pack but it's a big operation - it's not going to happen instead of recharging.


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## cougie uk (19 Aug 2021)

gavroche said:


> Can someone answer this question? When the batteries come to the end of their useful life, what happens to them ?
> Also, electric cars cost more than diesel when recharging as Guy Martin demonstrated when he did Lejog with an electric vehicle. Cost of electricity: £204 compared to £140 on diesel .



When batteries are taken out of their EV's - they haven't reached the end of their useful life. It might be that they don't hold as much charge as they once did - but they can still be used for storage in areas where density of energy isn't as critical - so they can be used as batteries as normal storage in businesses or houses. I know one football stadium is using ex car cells as backup for their lighting.

Electric cars don't cost more than diesel. Most people will charge at home so that's what 15p per kwh if you have no deals. Charging on the motorway is double that cost - 30p per kwh. Guy Martin found a charger for 70p per kwh. It's almost like he wanted to make it expensive...
Some people can charge entirely from solar - so basically free electric. You don't often get free diesel ?


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## cougie uk (19 Aug 2021)

geocycle said:


> Anyone come across the MG ZS. Looks like a useful sized vehicle for family duties and moving bikes when needed. Son is thinking of buying one.



My wife's cousin has the ZS - they seem very happy with it.


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## Milkfloat (19 Aug 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> I'd thought about the practicalities of this. With the street lighting being low power, the cabling to them would be quite a small guage as copper is expensive and you size the conductor to the load. Can you shed any light ( no pun intended ) as to what sort of power would be available? ( I'm very much pro schemes such as this, a lamp post could have a connector either side parallel to the road direction allowing two cars per post )


I believe they are 5.4Kw, so more of use for overnight charging than a quick boost. Residential areas are being targeted for the 60% of homes that do not have a driveway.


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## gzoom (19 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> The battle appears lost, but I wonder if an ever more efficient ICE could make better use of one finite resource - oil - than batteries make of another - precious metals.



Again am utterly amazed how much 'love' for the combustion engine there is on a pedal bike forum!!!

I thought I was a 'petrol head' having previously dragged my wife around the world in pursit of the smell/sound of the best combustion engines around.....







Yet after owning an EV for a few years I couldn't careless about the combustion engine, there isn't one thing I miss about combustion cars and frankly I kick my self for not making the switch to EVs even earlier.

Honestly what is it about combustion engines you love so much?? I've been there, done it and got the T-shirt. Trust me the grass is actually greener on the otherside for once!!


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## cougie uk (20 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I believe they are 5.4Kw, so more of use for overnight charging than a quick boost. Residential areas are being targeted for the 60% of homes that do not have a driveway.


 Lamppost charging is already a thing in Liverpool with https://www.ubitricity.com/


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## geocycle (20 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Lamppost charging is already a thing in Liverpool with https://www.ubitricity.com/



Yes there are quite a few schemes targeting hard to reach areas. Around us we have Charge my Street a community enterprise that works to get facilities into small villages and areas without off street parking.


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## Pale Rider (20 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Again am utterly amazed how much 'love' for the combustion engine there is on a pedal bike forum!!!



I'm getting fed up of repeating this.

There is no 'love' for the petrol engine, but there is some for on demand personal mobility.

It's merely about the best and most cost effective way to achieve that.

Currently (ho-ho) that is undeniably a car with an internal combustion engine.

That could change, proposed legislation suggests it will be a forced change from 2030 for those who buy new cars.

Those of us who buy used will still have the option of petrol/diesel or electric.

I will buy whatever makes the most sense at the time, as I do at present.


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## cougie uk (20 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I'm getting fed up of repeating this.
> 
> There is no 'love' for the petrol engine, but there is some for on demand personal mobility.
> 
> It's merely about the best and most cost effective way to achieve that.



Have you heard of Bicycles ?


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## vickster (20 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Have you heard of Bicycles ?


Not everyone is physically able to cycle (even on an e-bike/trike) especially not long distances with luggage


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## Pale Rider (20 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Not everyone is physically able to cycle (even on an e-bike/trike) especially not long distances with luggage



Which presumably he knows, thereby qualifying the post for dumbest of the day.

But there's still plenty of time for it to be beaten.


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## gzoom (21 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> It's merely about the best and most cost effective way to achieve that.
> 
> ....Those of us who buy used will still have the option of petrol/diesel or electric.



What you should be doing is encouraging everybody who can buy a new car to get an EV, that is the only way used prices will fall!!

The actual ownership and running costs of an EV is pennies compared to combustion cars. My 'luxury' SUV, costs £0 in VED, I have serviced it ONCE in 4 years and 40k+ miles, and despite been able to do 0-60mph in under 5 seconds the 160 mile we did to see family last night cost us under £5 in fuel.

The low running costs and ease of ownership is why used prices of EVs are holding firm, ours has depreciated less than 30% in 4 years and its going to be long long time before it reaches the same price of current used combustion cars. But that isn't anyone's 'fault' its simply supply and demand.


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## mikeIow (21 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> What you should be doing is encouraging everybody who can buy a new car to get an EV, that is the only way used prices will fall!!
> 
> The actual ownership and running costs of an EV is pennies compared to combustion cars. My 'luxury' SUV, costs £0 in VED, I have serviced it ONCE in 4 years and 40k+ miles, and despite been able to do 0-60mph in under 5 seconds the 160 mile we did to see family last night cost us under £5 in fuel.
> 
> ...



Why the quotes around ‘luxury’?
It’s fine to point out the fabulous low running costs, but when those are being applied to a car costing north of £80K, those savings are very much for the few, not the many!
I’ve had a fair number of new cars in my time, but never one costing over 50k, never mind 80 😜

Don’t get me wrong: I’m a *massive* fan of EVs - we got a Kona EV 26K miles ago: love it to bits 👍
Sure, the running costs are low, but right now those savings are still costing upwards of 6-10k more than an ‘equivalent’ ICE.
You may not be aware that everyone but Tesla still suck service costs from punters every year. The newer Kona has a 4th year service change of some fluid that means the service costs over £400 😳

Maybe everyone should buy a Tesla!
Curious how their brand came 3rd in the Auto Express awards this year, and yet over 40% of customers had problems with them. FORTY! Most other brands were below 20%. There remains an element of ”fanboism“ with the brand: they must put something in the a/c….or maybe nobody wants to admit such a massive purchase was slightly flawed 🤣

What is needed to encourage more take-up is government encouragement.
Norway subsidise EVs by removing their taxes paid, which makes them the same cost as an ICE.
Result: more EVs than ICE now being sold there.

Of course more infrastructure - chargepoints - is needed…but that will get there.
Opening up Tesla charging, as promised by Lord Elon later this year, will help….although might hack off Tesla owners a bit, I suspect….


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## gzoom (21 Aug 2021)

mikeIow said:


> Why the quotes around ‘luxury’?
> It’s fine to point out the fabulous low running costs, but when those are being applied to a car costing north of £80K, those savings are very much for the few, not the many!
> I’ve had a fair number of new cars in my time, but never one costing over 50k, never mind 80 😜



But the savings are the same for a used £5K Leaf or a new £20K MG. When I had my Leaf I think I worked out it was cheaper to use a transport than getting x3 different bus passes needed to cover the city....Yes EVs are CHEAPER to OWN+run than getting a bus pass!!!

There are also plenty of combustion cars costing well north of £80K, if I wasn't in a Tesla I would almost certainly be in a BMW M5 o XJR SuperSport, virtually the same purchase price but doing sub 20mpg. Hence why EVs just don't deprecate that much compared to combustion cars .


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## mikeIow (21 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> But the savings are the same for a used £5K Leaf or a new £20K MG. When I had my Leaf I think I worked out it was cheaper to use a transport than getting x3 different bus passes needed to cover the city....Yes EVs are CHEAPER to OWN+run than getting a bus pass!!!
> 
> There are also plenty of combustion cars costing well north of £80K, if I wasn't in a Tesla I would almost certainly be in a BMW M5 o XJR SuperSport, virtually the same purchase price but doing sub 20mpg. Hence why EVs just don't deprecate that much compared to combustion cars .


I guess you missed my point about service costs…..Tesla are an exception with your 1 service in 4 years + 40k miles.

EVs are certainly cheaper to RUN than ICE cars, but I disagree that they are cheaper to OWN at this point in time, comparing like for like.

& infrastructure in the UK is still not yet there for the vast majority. Great for those like us: detached house, fuel pump on driveway, second car for long distance, load carrying, runs to the tip….but not for everyone yet, sadly. My early years were in terraced houses: yes, I know street lights could house chargepoints, but there are a helluva lot of streets to cover!!
The jury remains out on the environmental cost of batteries too: I’m not blind to that, although I hope things improve….


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## gzoom (21 Aug 2021)

mikeIow said:


> Maybe everyone should buy a Tesla!
> Curious how their brand came 3rd in the Auto Express awards this year, and yet over 40% of customers had problems with them. FORTY! Most other brands were below 20%. There remains an element of ”fanboism“ with the brand: they must put something in the a/c….or maybe nobody wants to admit such a massive purchase was slightly flawed 🤣



Actually what Tesla have shown is the importance of software integration customers in the £50k+ price level wants/expects. Tesla is a software company first and car company second, and everything they do reflects that. If you don't get why mobile apps are such big things for companies, or why companies like Amazon and Peloton have completely rewritten the rule book on delivering a totally different customer experience using digital technology than you will never 'get' why Tesla get such loyalty and positive feedback from owners.

I will happily tell everyone I know our Tesla has been the MOST UNRELIABLE car I have ever owned, but at the same time I will tell them its by far THE BEST car I have ever owned and we as a family would swap our ultrareliable Lexus for another Tesla in a heartbeat (finances been not an issues).

Our Tesla isn't just a car, its somewhere to play when whilst waiting out for the rain to stop.






Trying to fiddle with complex sat navs on tiny screen for navigation is just something no one should need to put up with in a car.






The software updates over the our ownership has turned a car that was as 'dumb' as any other to one that essentially is more aware of whats on the road than me!!






Than ofcourse is the 'promise' of autonomy, if you haven't seen the update on developments its worth watching....Ignore the crazy Elon on drugs talk about 'robots' at the end .

The actual software been developed by Tesla is cutting edge and just advanced as anything DeepMind is implementing. But the difference here is the software stacks been written are been designed to be DEPLOYED in real life, in cars like mine which remember was produced in 2017. Which other car made in 2017 has any hope of getting a single software update, let alone having neural network software so advanced been pushed to it over the air without ever visiting a dearship!!

If you have no interest in software, or NeuralNetwork development than don't buy a Tesla, as I've ready pointed out there are loads of other cheaper (and more expensive) EVs around made by traditional car companies. But if you have any vague interest in seeing the bleeding edge of AI NNs development than you will quickly see why Teslas appeal so much over any other car brand.

It really isn't about physical products these days, the growth is in digital technologies and who can best leverage it, and on that front Tesla is leagues ahead of everyone else. Its not for everyone, but for my self this is why Tesla is doing so well.

I have toyed with the idea of a getting a Taycan, is more expensive than a Tesla and you see plenty around these days....But would a £100k+ Taycan get access to the same level of software development as a £40K Model 3?? Not a chance, so inthat regards why would our next car purchase by any other brand apart from Tesla??













View: https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M?t=5070


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## mikeIow (21 Aug 2021)

People need an interest in neural network development to buy a Tesla?
Now I’ve heard it all 🤣
I understand very well how Tesla is a computer company first and car company second. I *love* their vehicles, despite the panel gaps and poor paint. It has taken Elon to shake things up, and the old guard manufacturers are struggling to play catch up. His play on dedicated chargepoints was brilliant.
Hyundai & Kia are perhaps closest on catching up: the Ioniq5 is a brilliant EV.
The OTA updates worry me, especially as I see how shoddy some coding i….but I appreciate is is the future.
I also have a decent understanding of AI/ML/DL, having just left a career in tech!

It gets harder to ignore crazy Elon, mind. 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlO2gcs1YvM
, in case you are wondering how it all ends…..slaughterbots. That’ll be a fun time 😜

It does concern me how the likes of Elon, Bezos and even Branson can harbour such monstrously huge wealth to play with space games, whilst a big chunk of humanity struggles. The inequality gap gets broader every second we are typing….


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## figbat (21 Aug 2021)

On the cost of ownership thing, I am swapping my MINI Cooper S for a MINI Cooper SE - roughly equivalent cars - and I’ll be paying about the same per month on PCP. Take away the VED and servicing costs alone and running it is already cheaper, before we get to the cost of filling with electrons vs petrol.


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## gzoom (21 Aug 2021)

mikeIow said:


> I also have a decent understanding of AI/ML/DL, having just left a career in tech!



Surely you can appreciate even more how cutting edge Tesla is pushing with their software development and more importantly deployment in the real world.

A Model 3 is £40k, an Ionqi 5 is £40k, which do you think will able to take advantage of AI development now and on going into the future??

If you even have a hint of interest in software development Tesla really is the only brand that make sense. This is why Tesla gets industry leading customers loyalty despite not actually been that good at making the cars themselves.


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## mikeIow (21 Aug 2021)

Well, in a relentless drive towards the singularity, I guess it would be great for one IT company to become the vehicle manufacturer of the future....but I prefer to hope for competition. 
If you doubt the capability and desire of the Korean manufacturers to push and drive forward, then regardless of how good Tesla are today, I call "fanboi alert" ! 

A huge number of people prefer some buttons for basic functions: diving through screens to turn the temperature up or down (not all voice systems work well 😉), etc, is not what I call the best solution. A hybrid works very well for us with the Kona. The Koreans appear to be better at getting more miles per kWh at the moment too: something else to admire.

By your logic, we should only be shopping with Amazon (what's not to like about their prime delivery capabilities and ways to beat sellers down on price keen pricing capabilities, not to mention creative tax strategies to help avoid helping the greater society keep pricing low & Bezos getting even more billions
Tesla have a number of business challenges, & whist I don't doubt their abilities today on the IT front, others are also deep into software development. 
DeepMind at google is very heavy computer science that will help with all sort of future things: Tesla don't (yet) own them...

Watch your falcon doors 

Anyway, must go.....a whiff of sport to go and watch live!


----------



## gzoom (21 Aug 2021)

mikeIow said:


> The Koreans appear to be better at getting more miles per kWh at the moment too: something else to admire.



Sadly not ture for the Ionqi 5, it has the same efficiency as our X despite been smaller and slower!! It appears the efficiency of the Kona is all down to smaller size and less powerful motor .

Google is already in direct competition with Tesla on autonomy, Waymo is about the only real competition with Tesla. Both are the only companies really pushing the envelope, and its a good thing. But you cannot access Waymo tech unless you are an employee or working on their team, a £40k Model 3 you can buy today on the other hand has access to all the software developments Tesla are pushing.....though Government regulatory bodies are doing their best to stop that!!

Plenty of people do have £40k+ to spend on new cars, what Tesla have done is redefine what connectivity and software integration should be standard. But most car companies really don't have a clue where to start with software development, because after all they are car companies not tech companies.

As for the doors on our X, some people will always be clueless but I love them!! Infact even the software needed to make them work in tight environments would be a massive headache for most car manufacturers!!


----------



## cougie uk (21 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Not everyone is physically able to cycle (even on an e-bike/trike) especially not long distances with luggage


Not everyone is able to drive either.


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## simongt (22 Aug 2021)

An interesting point ref. charging bays which I hadn't noticed until now. Refilling petrol / diesel, you're invariably in a well lit, sheltered area. Not so charging bays. All the ones I've seen to date, even at service areas are out in the open and either unlit or badly lit. 
Scenario; you need to recharge to be able to continue your journey. It's dark and raining heavily. You have to deal with your payment card and then work out how best to get the ELECTRIC plug connected to the ELECTRIC socket on your car without too much rainwater getting into the connectors. 
Hmm.


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## simongt (22 Aug 2021)

mikeIow said:


> I’ve had a fair number of new cars in my time, but never one costing over 50k, never mind 80 😜


With cars, I agree. However, paying lots of money for things which can cost a lot less is relative. There are folk who blanche at the idea of spending more than £200 on any new bike, but there are those on this community who will happily dole out £5k. for one. 
My niece is a petrolhead and has just forked out nearly £30k. for a used Jag SUV with which she is now obsessed. ( go figure - ! 🤣 )
Depends on your particular preferences.


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## ericmark (22 Aug 2021)

I like the idea the AC can run when engine is stopped, but could only be a second car, will not pull caravan and with a 60 amp total supply to house, charging is an issue, so maximum time I am likely to drive is 30 years, and the electric car uses so much energy, my e-bike has a 12 Ah battery at 48 volt and can take me 20 miles to shops and back, compare that to battery size in a car, clearly some thing wrong.


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## gzoom (22 Aug 2021)

ericmark said:


> The electric car uses so much energy



If you think EVs are inefficiency work out the energy wasted in combustion engines!!

Roughly speaking at most combustion engines has 40% thermal efficiency, older engines closer to 20%. Add in gear box losses you are looking at 1/4 the efficiency of EVs!! 

Than add in the energy needed to extract, refine, transport the fuel, its amazing we are waiting till 2030 to ban the sale of new combustion cars.


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## Tenkaykev (22 Aug 2021)

ericmark said:


> I like the idea the AC can run when engine is stopped, but could only be a second car, will not pull caravan and with a 60 amp total supply to house, charging is an issue, so maximum time I am likely to drive is 30 years, and the electric car uses so much energy, my e-bike has a 12 Ah battery at 48 volt and can take me 20 miles to shops and back, compare that to battery size in a car, clearly some thing wrong.


The car industry has spent over a century making vehicles and the design has evolved usually around a box for the engine, a box for the passengers and a box for the luggage. This has been refined to make the vehicles more “ squishy “ to protect passengers in case of crashes and more aerodynamic to help fuel consumption. This methodology has become embedded in car manufacturing with the traditional manufacturers just substituting an Electric drive train and still keeping construction/ component usage much the same. “ Munro Live “ has stripped down several electric vehicles down to the bare shell and analysed and questioned why certain design decisions/ component choices were made. The latest YouTube video from them even had a design person from Ford answering questions and explaining various choices. Well worth a watch for those interested in the Engineering and construction, both good and bad of various marques.


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## cougie uk (22 Aug 2021)

ericmark said:


> electric car uses so much energy, my e-bike has a 12 Ah battery at 48 volt and can take me 20 miles to shops and back, compare that to battery size in a car, clearly some thing wrong.



Not really. How heavy is your bike ?
Compare that to the car. 
And the ebike is just topping up your efforts too. 

Imagine trying to pedal a 2 tonne car with those wheels on and see how far you'd get. 

My EV is powered entirely on renewable electricity. Far better than an ICE car.


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## ericmark (22 Aug 2021)

The problem is to pass crash tests the car has to be so heavy, Citroen 2 CV was 600 kg (1,323 lb) and carried 4 people, there is no need to have a car weighing over a ton unless using it to tow with.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> What you should be doing is encouraging everybody who can buy a new car to get an EV, that is the only way used prices will fall!!
> 
> The actual ownership and running costs of an EV is pennies compared to combustion cars. My 'luxury' SUV, costs £0 in VED, I have serviced it ONCE in 4 years and 40k+ miles, and despite been able to do 0-60mph in under 5 seconds the 160 mile we did to see family last night cost us under £5 in fuel.
> 
> ...


Not interested in an EV , it does not tick all the boxes , I’m pretty sure I’m not alone neither. So yes combustion engine all the way for now. I’d maybe consider a hybrid next but that’s it. Once all the boxes are ticked then I may jump in.


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## MrGrumpy (22 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> My EV is powered entirely on renewable electricity. Far better than an ICE car.



Do you have your own solar panels ?


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## MrGrumpy (22 Aug 2021)

ericmark said:


> The problem is to pass crash tests the car has to be so heavy, Citroen 2 CV was 600 kg (1,323 lb) and carried 4 people, there is no need to have a car weighing over a ton unless using it to tow with.


Wouldn’t want to be in a 2CV in a crash !


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## cougie uk (22 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Do you have your own solar panels ?


Not yet. Maybe in the future. But in the meanwhile we only use renewable electricity from Octopus. 

https://octopus.energy/blog/what-ma...VHwHPBYKdh5E3PlSZXDXYq_fBcPgjPqxoCgEEQAvD_BwE


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## MrGrumpy (22 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Not yet. Maybe in the future. But in the meanwhile we only use renewable electricity from Octopus.
> 
> https://octopus.energy/blog/what-ma...VHwHPBYKdh5E3PlSZXDXYq_fBcPgjPqxoCgEEQAvD_BwE


Not quite true is it!? What they do is invest in renewables only. One things for sure once EVs become mainstream, they will be taxed to the hilt as well !?


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## cougie uk (22 Aug 2021)

Basically it's the same. Obviously there's no way to separate solar power electrons from the rest...

I don't doubt they will have to tax EVs - but probably technology will have evolved and we can do pay per mile. In the meantime I'm paying 25% of the petrol bill I used to.


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## Drago (22 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Not really. How heavy is your bike ?
> Compare that to the car.
> And the ebike is just topping up your efforts too.
> 
> ...


That's over simplistic. You're talking 30,000-50,000 miles of use before it starts to draw ahead of an ICE powered vehicle. 

For someone like me who does 1000 miles a year or less it would be very disadvantageous to the environment to buy a new electric car, as at my age I'll likely never reach the break CO2 even point.

On the other hand Mrs D, who is disabled, relies on her car much more than I do and does much higher mileage, so he Polestar 2 will quickly go into the black on the pollution balance sheet.

Nevertheless, it's not a panacea. It brings only a moderate reduction in vehicle lifetime CO2 usage, so is merely trimming around the edges and not a cure. Throw in the massive heavy metal soil pollution, use of child labour, and irreversible damage being done to subterranean water sources being caused in the name of extracting the rare earth metals to make the batteries and electronics, and one can see a massive pollution disadvantage that is being all too conveniently overlooked. 

Electric car ownership or aspiration is all well and good, but none of us should be getting smug. Their manufacture and use still inflicts enormous environmental damage. If we really cared we would be working to eradicate unnecessary private car use entirely, not prolonging and justifying that it with specious talk of environmental goodness.


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## cougie uk (22 Aug 2021)

I do think that EV cars will bring self driving vehicles a lot faster than with ICE vehicles. It'll be like Taxis but less racist. 

Obviously I prefer to walk or bike if I can - but cars do have a use.


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## gzoom (22 Aug 2021)

Drago said:


> If we really cared we would be working to eradicate unnecessary private car use entirely, not prolonging and justifying that it with specious talk of environmental goodness.



The reality though given how resistant to change people are to give up the combustion engine (just see the comments in this thread), any demand or mandate to make people cars disappear will gain 0 traction amounts any one. Even though I use my pedal bike to commute to work, there is zero change I would give up our cars, regardless of any global environmental concerns.

Any one can probably see our planet is already pretty much done with us as the dominate species, we'll almost certainly go down in the fossil record as nothing more than a blip.


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## figbat (22 Aug 2021)

Whilst there is a natural and understandable focus on total emissions and if/how and EV benefits, the other factors is emission location. The emissions that power an EV are usually out of town, away from schools and shops and kitten sanctuaries (and possibly even in another country) whereas ICE emissions follow it wherever it goes. And if EV charging is overnight then the emissions are too.

Of course there is the inevitable focus on other emissions which EVs cause - particulates from tyres is one.


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## Pale Rider (25 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> Actually what Tesla have shown is the importance of software integration customers in the £50k+ price level wants/expects. Tesla is a software company first and car company second, and everything they do reflects that. If you don't get why mobile apps are such big things for companies, or why companies like Amazon and Peloton have completely rewritten the rule book on delivering a totally different customer experience using digital technology than you will never 'get' why Tesla get such loyalty and positive feedback from owners.
> 
> I will happily tell everyone I know our Tesla has been the MOST UNRELIABLE car I have ever owned, but at the same time I will tell them its by far THE BEST car I have ever owned and we as a family would swap our ultrareliable Lexus for another Tesla in a heartbeat (finances been not an issues).
> 
> ...




I neither want nor need any of the technology and 'software integration' which you presumably see as a benefit.

If I drive from the north east to the midlands, London, or south Devon I do not need a map to do it.

My first car was a Triumph Herald which realistically would do the job today.

Sure, I appreciate some of the improvements and toys on my newish Ford - air con, better handling, improved economy - but none of the extra gadgetry on an EV would be of any real benefit.

Paying an extra £10k+ for loads of toys I will never use and inferior day to day convenience makes no sense.

I am far from certain the overall environmental impact of an EV is less than an ICE car, and may be more.

Hardly surprising it's taking legislation to drive uptake.


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## cougie uk (25 Aug 2021)

Are you aware of the new technology coming into all cars from next year ? 

It'll make the roads safer for everyone. 

And I'm sure your great grandfather would have been saying the same things about the Model T that you're saying about EVs. 

"I'm happy with my horse me"


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## Pale Rider (25 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Are you aware of the new technology coming into all cars from next year ?
> 
> It'll make the roads safer for everyone.
> 
> ...



I am comparing the difference between a modern ICE car and an EV.

The 'extras' on the EV, essentially a load of technological gadgetry, are of no use - that's the problem.


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## JhnBssll (25 Aug 2021)

The 'Extras' on an EV are largely freebies anyway - you need a certain level of electronics to control the drive and safety systems. Once you've paid for the hardware, why not add some software gimmicks


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## Peugeotrider (25 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> Then of course, as time goes on Diesel is going to become more expensive as demand drops...


Not if you're running on the old ribena 🤣


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## icowden (25 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Sure, I appreciate some of the improvements and toys on my newish Ford - air con, better handling, improved economy - but none of the extra gadgetry on an EV would be of any real benefit.



And there we have the nub of it. You have pre-judged without rationalisation.
Without experiencing and testing the gadgetry, you cannot assess whether the various options available to you would be of benefit.

A bit like my father in law when I follow Google Maps but he "goes the best route" and therefore gets stuck in 20 minutes of traffic that Google knew about and he didn't.


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## MrGrumpy (25 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> And there we have the nub of it. You have pre-judged without rationalisation.
> Without experiencing and testing the gadgetry, you cannot assess whether the various options available to you would be of benefit.


I think maybe a reference to the Tesla`s fart button ! Its cock all use to anyone  .


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## JhnBssll (25 Aug 2021)

Apparently in the latest software update they've removed the voice control to "open butthole" which opened the charge port  Might cancel my order...


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## Pale Rider (25 Aug 2021)

icowden said:


> And there we have the nub of it. You have pre-judged without rationalisation.
> Without experiencing and testing the gadgetry, you cannot assess whether the various options available to you would be of benefit.
> 
> A bit like my father in law when I follow Google Maps but he "goes the best route" and therefore gets stuck in 20 minutes of traffic that Google knew about and he didn't.



Some here seem to think that just because I don't swoon at every new gadget I must be Ned Ludd.

Nothing changes in my motoring orbit when I change the car, only the car itself.

The extra stuff on an EV will do nothing for my journeys, other than make some less convenient.

When or if an EV makes financial and operational sense to me, I will buy one.

That's unlikely to happen without the additional push of regulation, which the government knows, which in turn is why they are going in that direction.

Until then, I and many others will leave you EV emperors to wear your new clothes.


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## gzoom (25 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I neither want nor need any of the technology and 'software integration' which you presumably see as a benefit.



Not everyone wanted the industrial revolution or the Renaissance either .

If you don't want or see the potential of data interoperability than good for you, but luckily progress occurs regardless .


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## Pale Rider (25 Aug 2021)

gzoom said:


> If you don't want or see the potential of data interoperability than good for you, but luckily progress occurs regardless



I doubt 'data interoperability' is high on the list of requirements for very many new car buyers.

Do you feel you might be being played by the big tech companies, just a tiny bit?

Seems to me they are persuading people they want something they didn't know they wanted.

A profitable trick if you can pull it off.

It's just a modern take on snake oil selling - buyers need to be more aware now than ever.


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## MrGrumpy (25 Aug 2021)

Fleet buyers are the key here. How many big fleet buyers are going full EV? The company’s cars my employer offers are hybrid as well as the usual diesel alternatives. Not seen any company EVs. Also the area/ sales reps etc and those others who do big miles every year . EV is just not going to work as the range is rubbish.


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## roubaixtuesday (25 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I neither want nor need any of the technology and 'software integration' which you presumably see as a benefit



Paley. Bad news. I completely agree with you. 

However, to many fresh faced millennials, satnav screen, parking cameras, Bluetooth integration and all that bollox seem, mystifyingly, vital. 




Pale Rider said:


> I am far from certain the overall environmental impact of an EV is less than an ICE car, and may be more.



Normal service is resumed! You're completely wrong. 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change


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## cougie uk (25 Aug 2021)

https://fleetworld.co.uk/4-in-10-uk-car-buyers-would-prefer-to-buy-a-zero-emission-vehicle/

I've seen electric fleets. Local bus company has electric Nissan vans.
Amazon has a huge fleet of electric Mercedes vans. There's an electric company with a fleet of leafs too. 

I don't believe fleet buyers are as big as they used to be ?


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## icowden (26 Aug 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I doubt 'data interoperability' is high on the list of requirements for very many new car buyers.



But if you explain it as "Interoperability mean your car can talk to other cars - it can see traffic patterns to get you where you need to go quickly, you can hook up to all of the different types of charging point. You can use your phone ask your car to check the temperature at 6am and defrost itself and warm the seats up ready for 6.30 when you leave to go to work. You can ask it to reverse into a parking space for you or come and pick you up from the drop off if it's raining. Eventually your car may be able to find a parking space for you by talking to the sensors in car parks for example. Oh and your car can keep itself safe ant notify you if someone is trying to break in or has driven off after reversing into you - it can even provide camera footage."

Do these sound useful to you? To many people these sound like great features.

But I agree - if you just ask them if data interoperability is important they probably won't know what you are talking about. You might as well talk to them about the benefits of dirtbusting in Diesel or octane rating. What? People aren't interested in those things either?


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## Pale Rider (26 Aug 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Normal service is resumed! You're completely wrong.



'Completely wrong' is a misrepresentation of your link.

It concedes the environmental impact of battery production is at least uncertain.

Child labour and generally poor working conditions at the point of mining has no environmental impact, but is just as undesirable as carbon emissions.


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## Rocky (26 Aug 2021)

I'm in total agreement about these unnecessary electrical devices. My starting handle has never let me down......who needs a starter motor?


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## Pale Rider (26 Aug 2021)

At the garage we used the starting handle for the hack Minor pick up for several months until a suitable (customer replacement) battery became available.

Minors have electric fuel pumps so it started first crank every time.

It only took a few seconds, so was hardly any more inconvenient than the self starter.


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## simongt (28 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It'll make the roads safer for everyone.


A car is only as safe as the attitude of the driver of said car.


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## cougie uk (28 Aug 2021)

simongt said:


> A car is only as safe as the attitude of the driver of said car.


True but safety systems that auto brake for example when they detect someone in the way is a help.


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## simongt (28 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> True but safety systems that auto brake for example when they detect someone in the way is a help.


Agree, although any safety system has to be properly maintained to work efficiently. Can we honestly say that EVERYONE has their car fully and correctly maintained - ? 
Just saying - !


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## icowden (28 Aug 2021)

simongt said:


> Agree, although any safety system has to be properly maintained to work efficiently. Can we honestly say that EVERYONE has their car fully and correctly maintained - ?



Well, it's supposed to have an MOT in the UK. Beyond that the power of the Tesla AI *should* be such that the AI knows if there is a problem with the car before you do.


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## simongt (1 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> it's supposed to have an MOT in the UK


An MOT is only a test of the condition of the vehicle at the time of the test. Said vehicle can fail an MOT an hour later. It also depends on the integrity of the testing station. Many of us have known of a testing station who will pass a car for a 'favour'.


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## icowden (1 Sep 2021)

simongt said:


> An MOT is only a test of the condition of the vehicle at the time of the test. Said vehicle can fail an MOT an hour later. It also depends on the integrity of the testing station. Many of us have known of a testing station who will pass a car for a 'favour'.



Whilst that is true, it is still a reasonable test that means the majority of cars will be in a reasonably safe condition. All systems have outliers.


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## nickyboy (3 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Paley. Bad news. I completely agree with you.
> 
> However, to many fresh faced millennials, satnav screen, parking cameras, Bluetooth integration and all that bollox seem, mystifyingly, vital.
> 
> ...


I'm far from being a Millennial, but I regard satnav, parking cameras, bluetooth and plenty of other stuff as essential and if a car doesn't have them I won't buy it. They make driving easier and more enjoyable

FWIW, I'm about to press the button on a PHEV. Very few EVs in the size of vehicle I want and my driving requirements mean that 90% of the mileage will be electric only anyway and the hybrid aspect takes the stress out of family holiday road trips etc


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## roubaixtuesday (3 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> FWIW, I'm about to press the button on a PHEV. Very few EVs in the size of vehicle I want and my driving requirements mean that 90% of the mileage will be electric only anyway and the hybrid aspect takes the stress out of family holiday road trips etc



Was contemplating options like this a while back, but mileage on electric seemed so low as to be not worthwhile - 30 miles runs a bell. What's the electric mileage these days? Our car may need replacement before too long...


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

welsh dragon said:


> I think the battery range of all electric cars is still quite iffy. What they say you get and the reality are quite different. They're claims are based on very strict controlled parameters that are nigh on impossible to achieve in real life . I did hear within the last couple of days that the differance is up to a third of what they claim to achieve.
> 
> Glad to hear the experience of actually driving one is good though.



We have 3 electric cars in the family, Nissan Leaf and Tesla s. 

The Nissan quoted 170 summer miles and 120 winter miles. We get comfortable 150 summer and 100 miles winter. The Teslas do within 20 miles their maximum rated around 300 miles. Teslas can be pre heated before journeys in winter cancelling winter loss of range.

The use of heating has a small detriment to range, not massively. The Nissan drops about 6 miles of overall range.

We got the Nissan 3.5 years ago, its used everyday, upto 150miles. We have only one instance of range issue, this was in the first month of ownership. We are knocking on 70K miles now. Only 1 set of tyres recently changed in that time. Nothing else to pay


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

keithmac said:


> Some Teslas are already doing 2.5 second 0 to 60. Instant full torque from standing start.
> 
> I'm sure I've seen some Tesla 9 second 1/4 mile runs.
> 
> Amazing really!.



Standard Tesla will do 0-60 between 3.7-4.3 seconds. The performance models are about 0.5 faster than standard. 

The new Plaid model S with 1000hp triple motors 0-60 1.99 seconds and 9.1 1/4 mile.


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

Sittingduck said:


> Noting to do with filling a tank mentality. Everything to do with needed to sometimes do trips that would be in excess of the range. In an ideal world I would never need to venture further than 100 miles from home by car but sadly this is not always the case.



But in reality 100+ journeys are quite rare for the vast majority of journeys. 

95% of all western civilization is around 35miles per day driving-even the USA. 

Charging networks are located in convenient locations, especially Tesla.


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

JhnBssll said:


> We've got a petrol car too which we'll be keeping, along with a Diesel van. It will be interesting to see how often I start using the Tesla on longer drives though, I suspect it will be a more pleasant environment than even my wife's Arteon but we shall see  I've got a bit of a wait until I can find out as yet



You quickly adapt, by stopping to charge and eat at those points. We have done 1000mile journeys and it was a breeze using Tesla's charger network. Just stick in your destination let Tesla workout all the points where and how long to stop. You will surprised that some stops are really short, because the car rapidly charges in the early part, so Tesla sometimes recommend like 15mins charges. Its quicker to have two or three short charges than one full charge


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> @Sittingduck A Leaf will do about 3-3.5miles per kWh at 70mph, so you can work out the range from there.



Oir leaf is averaging 3.5 miles per kW. I can easily get 3.8, but the wife ruins it driving like she stole it


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

You dont need to have super charger at your destination. We once stopped at a campsite for a holiday. We fully charged the car on 6Amps supply whilst we didn't use it. Took us completely home on free electric (free on-site electric)


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> At present, an electric car is significantly more expensive to buy for which you get compromised real world performance in comparison to a smelly diesel.



But the running costs are massively cheaper to run. 

We bought our £27k Nissan Leaf.

On the current usage over 5 years we will have saved enough in fuelling/servicing costs to make our original purchase price £9k 

Yes the outlay is significantly more, but if you're doing decent miles huge savings are accessible. 

Dont forget every new EV is one less pumping pollution into the local town or city. Maybe one day visiting a town wont be a health risk


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> You do know new EV sales are already higher than diesel sales for the last 2 months running and its looking like to stay that way.
> 
> Am actually quite surprised on a pedal bike forum there is so much love for diesel?



Model 3 UK's best selling car. I see them all over now. They cant make them fast enough. 

The BIK buying an EV is a no brainer. Virtually nothing compared to a similar priced ICE vehicle


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

Peugeotrider said:


> It's not the driving....it's the refuelling.
> Looking like a plonker sitting at a charge point for 2 hours .
> What if you have 3 EVs in your home and everyone needs charged at the same time?
> Also....I hate automatic cars.



You dont wait more than 40 mins at supercharger.

We have 3 EVs and one 7kW charge point, plus a couple outdoor sockets. We have no problem.

Bear in mind 95% of all western civilization car journeys are 35 miles or less.

You dont need to charge all of them to full charge overnight. Only 1 EV needs to be ready for unforseen journey


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Cheap leccy and slightly cheaper servicing (possibly) will never make up for the missing ten grand



Yes it will


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## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> You may not be aware that everyone but Tesla still suck service costs from punters every year



Ive not had any maintenance on either of our 2 year old Teslas. Tesla said come back in 3 or 4 years when the car suggests


----------



## CXRAndy (3 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Fleet buyers are the key here. How many big fleet buyers are going full EV? The company’s cars my employer offers are hybrid as well as the usual diesel alternatives. Not seen any company EVs. Also the area/ sales reps etc and those others who do big miles every year . EV is just not going to work as the range is rubbish.



BIK is a small on an EV compared to ICE. Im not privy to the exact figures but £30 per month for and EV compared to many hundreds for a poor economy big car. 

That's why Tesla's have proliferated


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## Bazzer (3 Sep 2021)

As I've said elsewhere, I think my PHEV Golf GTE is great. Boot space is down on my previous Golf TDI because of the batteries taking up the spare wheel well, but the times I need that extra space, there are work arounds. 
The average mpg of my TDI at 60 - 65 is destroyed by the GTE. This afternoon I collected Mrs B from overnight childcare duties at one of our daughters. According to the computer, since the last refueling I have done 710 miles at an average of 188mpg. Zero VED and it charges from a 3 pin plug, the lead to which passes through a small gap under one of the garage doors.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> BIK is a small on an EV compared to ICE. Im not privy to the exact figures but £30 per month for and EV compared to many hundreds for a poor economy big car.
> 
> That's why Tesla's have proliferated


I’ve actually heard now that the company car owners at work will be penalised with their mileage cost if they don’t move over to EV. Some are not happy as they are in the middle of leases.


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## MrGrumpy (3 Sep 2021)

Bazzer said:


> As I've said elsewhere, I think my PHEV Golf GTE is great. Boot space is down on my previous Golf TDI because of the batteries taking up the spare wheel well, but the times I need that extra space, there are work arounds.
> The average mpg of my TDI at 60 - 65 is destroyed by the GTE. This afternoon I collected Mrs B from overnight childcare duties at one of our daughters. According to the computer, since the last refueling I have done 710 miles at an average of 188mpg. Zero VED and it charges from a 3 pin plug, the lead to which passes through a small gap under one of the garage doors.


Is that a hybrid ?


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## JhnBssll (3 Sep 2021)

BIK on a £50k Tesla Model 3 is exactly £16/month for a higher rate tax payer  Next year will be £32/month as they're doubling the current 1% rate, meanies...  They've stated they'll then freeze it for 2 years, so it'll be 2% for 3 years in total, after which I'm expecting it to creep up again. These things dont tend to last


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## Bazzer (3 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Is that a hybrid ?


Yes.
Unlike some "mild hybrids" I believe they are called, the electric motor is very capable in its own right. So it will do motorway speed on batteries alone. The computer limits the speed to 80mph if using electricity. A friend's daughter has a hybrid, (I don't know what make), but apparently the electric motor in that cuts out at 20mph. Unless you spend all your driving time in stop/start motoring, I don't see the point of that.
The longest single journey to date was 415 miles. It returned a mpg just very slightly lower than my old TDI.
It will also plug into a supercharger. That's just a different cable I keep in the garage and can put in the boot if necessary. But for the time being I just use the three pin cable and have set the car's computer to charge at the lowest rate, to preserve the batteries.


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## cougie uk (3 Sep 2021)

There's some cars calling themselves hybrids where they just have an extra 12v battery just to get the car moving. What's the point of that ?


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## JhnBssll (3 Sep 2021)

Those 'fake' hybrids with tiny ranges were developed quickly to fill a demand created by rushed government strategy - Hybrids were made very cheap as company cars, so by slinging another battery and small motor in the models became far more enticing to company car drivers. The rules have since changed again to factor in the 'battery only' range so these models are now going away again.


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## keithmac (4 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> There's some cars calling themselves hybrids where they just have an extra 12v battery just to get the car moving. What's the point of that ?



Because they as still classed as an EV and can get into the lower tax bands. Same as those that will only do 20 miles on a charge, absolutely useless just basically a tax dodge.

I could see us with an EV at some point for normal daily duties and just keep our Diesel Kuga for towing/ holidays. Tesla would be 1st choice but they are a bit spendy (you get what you pay for I suppose!.).


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## cyberknight (4 Sep 2021)

Is this what they call "mild" hybrids ?


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## MrGrumpy (4 Sep 2021)

I read something about those type of hybrids over heat batteries when towing? That’s the ones with the bigger batteries ! Not the small 2 mile range ones. 


keithmac said:


> Because they as still classed as an EV and can get into the lower tax bands. Same as those that will only do 20 miles on a charge, absolutely useless just basically a tax dodge.
> 
> I could see us with an EV at some point for normal daily duties and just keep our Diesel Kuga for towing/ holidays. Tesla would be 1st choice but they are a bit spendy (you get what you pay for I suppose!.).


Similar here keep the tree killer disco for now and maybe in the future swap out the E Class Cabriolet… btw Tesla’s seem to get all the press but if I’m honest they don’t do anything for me. There will be nicer cars out there in a few years I’m sure once all are on board. Range anxiety is the issue and it’s been done to death in this convo but it’s a fact that needs to be over come .


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## gzoom (4 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> There will be nicer cars out there in a few years I’m sure once all are on board.



It depends on what you want from a 'car'. The days when cars are just wheels with an engine I suspect is coming to an end very quickly, similar to the idea a mobile phone is designed to just make phone calls.

The amount of $$$$$$$ Tesla on computing hardware and software is giving the likes of IBM, Nvidia, Google a run for their money let alone any established car brands.

https://www.networkworld.com/article/3631502/are-tesla-s-dojo-supercomputer-claims-valid.html

Tesla a tech company that happens to make cars, Elon Musk made his first million in tech not manufacturing. Their USP will always be the use of digital data in the cars. There isn't another car manufacturer who is close to Tesla interms of digital/computer interoperability.

But make no mistake Tesla's approach to development is much higher risk than any one else. For example even the software required to run their new Supercomputer isn't written yet, and there are debates on if current software even has the ability to control/manage the distributed computer power Dojo hardware will offer!! 

Its the ultimate 'Go big or go home' apporach they have used almost since day 1......Its certainly an approach most CEOs will have nightmares about even as a draft strategy plan, let alone one you bet your entire company on time and time again.


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## Sittingduck (4 Sep 2021)

Ok I am sold, Tesla is the way to go - now who’s having a whip round to stump up the 48k I need to buy one? 
not eligible for a company car scheme any more and even when I was Tesla was not available in my bracket…


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## FishFright (4 Sep 2021)

It's good to hear from a nice mix of EV etc owners and their real world experience. Less so from those who have opinions and google .

A couple of my friends who are both petrolheads and classic car owners will be getting EV's next as that's where the fun will be as well as the the tax breaks.

Myself I won't be buying and EV or ICE because I don't do cars but if I do it would have to be an EV going on what all the owners have said.


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## CXRAndy (4 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> There will be nicer cars out there in a few years I’m sure once all are on board



Im sure there will. But its going to have be bloody good

The model 3 is a fantastic vehicle. It handles like a top class sports car, accelerates fast as a hyper car, has virtually no service and over the air firmware updates- without ever needing to go to a dealer.

Has 300+ range

The Tesla supercharger network-absolutely fantastic, as is the app.

The seats are so nice to sit in.

If you like minimalist the Tesla is that. The outside looks are OK. My model S is nicer looking 

There are no other manufacturers who can match all that currently for the price. You need to go much higher to Porsche/Audi to get anywhere near in features, but you will be paying another £40-50k ontop of a model 3

Legacy ICE companies cant figure how Tesla make such a good car for the price they sell it. Its because its a tech company that makes cars.

Oh and they land rockets on platform in the sea too. 

Im all for Tesla, because its driven the others to chase. EV is here and the Osbourne effect will accelerate the take up


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## icowden (4 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> The model 3 is a fantastic vehicle. It handles like a top class sports car, accelerates fast as a hyper car, has virtually no service and over the air firmware updates- without ever needing to go to a dealer.



I'm hoping that the Model Y is going to be available soon as I think I'll need the space.


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## gzoom (4 Sep 2021)

Sittingduck said:


> Ok I am sold, Tesla is the way to go - now who’s having a whip round to stump up the 48k I need to buy one?



Whilst you are at it, see if you can collect enough for me to get a Taycan too .

What interesting to see if how a 8 year Model S with 170K miles on the battery compares with brand new EVs today......Frankly its embarrassing that pretty every other brand new EV on sale today barely beats/matches a 2013 Model S for range at M-way speeds. By the time those cars have 100K miles on the battery the 2013 Model S will have MORE range. 

The current Model 3/Y are another generation ahead.


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## gzoom (4 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> I'm hoping that the Model Y is going to be available soon as I think I'll need the space.



RHD Ys are already been delivered in HK. They should be hitting UK shores within the next 4-6 months.


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## fossyant (4 Sep 2021)

My next car will probably be a planet burner, and I'll keep it. 3.7 V6 VVTL - makes a nice noise with 300 bhp, or a slightly faster 3.5 V6 with a hybrid battery giving 400 bhp (Nissans). Cost will be less than £15k (used). I'd never splurge £30k plus on electric - it needs to come down in price. 2 seats or 4 is the question.

I'll be doing low miles as I do anyway.


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## icowden (4 Sep 2021)

fossyant said:


> Cost will be less than £15k (used). I'd never splurge £30k plus on electric - it needs to come down in price.



You aren't comparing well. Firstly you are comparing a second hand car against a new one. Then you need to add on the extortionate cost of Diesel or Petrol, regular servicing, increased insurance, increased road tax and other charges if you travel into low emission or congestion zones, parking costs etc. Electric is expensive up front thanks to Bozo and his cronies just paying lip service to the environmental lobby, but a lot cheaper over time.

Those Nissan Infiniti seem to cost more than a Model 3 when new.


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## fossyant (4 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> You aren't comparing well. Firstly you are comparing a second hand car against a new one. Then you need to add on the extortionate cost of Diesel or Petrol, regular servicing, increased insurance, increased road tax and other charges if you travel into low emission or congestion zones, parking costs etc. Electric is expensive up front thanks to Bozo and his cronies just paying lip service to the environmental lobby, but a lot cheaper over time.
> 
> Those Nissan Infiniti seem to cost more than a Model 3 when new.



I can't see the new EV's dropping in price like an ICE does though. I can't justify it due to the lack of miles I do, so any environmental impact is low. I'll be hybrid working, and I'll be bike commuting where possible. Also, EV's sound rubbish.


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## cougie uk (4 Sep 2021)

fossyant said:


> I can't see the new EV's dropping in price like an ICE does though. I can't justify it due to the lack of miles I do, so any environmental impact is low. I'll be hybrid working, and I'll be bike commuting where possible. Also, EV's sound rubbish.


By contrast I love mine. Nice and almost silent when coming in late or going out early.


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## CXRAndy (5 Sep 2021)

I can float into our village and leave and no one knows. 

The Rivian and F150 EV are just about to be released, my last fossil burner will go shortly to get a big load carrying EV


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## nickyboy (5 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Was contemplating options like this a while back, but mileage on electric seemed so low as to be not worthwhile - 30 miles runs a bell. What's the electric mileage these days? Our car may need replacement before too long...


A large PHEV (like Audi Q5, Mercedes GEC) will do around 40 miles on battery only depending on how it is driven. It does force a compromise on boot space however as the batteries have to go somewhere. Having said that, these two vehicles have boots around 90% of the Nissan Qashqai for example. 
We don't do too many journeys of more than 40 miles so practically speaking, it's an electric vehicle for us. Going for PHEV does two things:
1. Much bigger choice of vehicles
2. Gets around the issues of recharging on the occasional long distance journeys we do


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## MrGrumpy (5 Sep 2021)

fossyant said:


> My next car will probably be a planet burner, and I'll keep it. 3.7 V6 VVTL - makes a nice noise with 300 bhp, or a slightly faster 3.5 V6 with a hybrid battery giving 400 bhp (Nissans). Cost will be less than £15k (used). I'd never splurge £30k plus on electric - it needs to come down in price. 2 seats or 4 is the question.
> 
> I'll be doing low miles as I do anyway.


Wasn’t even considering an EV for my next car , more a another V6 RRS or a V8 FFRR . Big diesels or petrol engines are not going anywhere and they are not going to tax the hell out of the fuel either. As there will be a huge kick back on that. If it’s hybrid then I’ll probably go for that.


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## Bazzer (5 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> A large PHEV (like Audi Q5, Mercedes GEC) will do around 40 miles on battery only depending on how it is driven. It does force a compromise on boot space however as the batteries have to go somewhere. Having said that, these two vehicles have boots around 90% of the Nissan Qashqai for example.
> We don't do too many journeys of more than 40 miles so practically speaking, it's an electric vehicle for us. Going for PHEV does two things:
> 1. Much bigger choice of vehicles
> 2. Gets around the issues of recharging on the occasional long distance journeys we do


If the Q5 is anything like my Golf and I would expect it to be given it is ultimately from the same company, for journeys longer than the anticipated battery mileage, you put the car into hybrid mode and let the computer do the management. - The default is battery power.
The battery will also charge on longer journeys, (separate from active engine charging), using power from the engine which isn't needed, regen braking and engine braking, all of which puts more angry pixies into the battery, which in turn the computer then uses to help the engine.


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## icowden (5 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Wasn’t even considering an EV for my next car , more a another V6 RRS or a V8 FFRR . Big diesels or petrol engines are not going anywhere and they are not going to tax the hell out of the fuel either. As there will be a huge kick back on that. If it’s hybrid then I’ll probably go for that.



You might be surprised. A lot of people are becoming concerned that they would like their children, grandchildren etc to grow up on a better planet, not a worse one. Remember that the UK is stopping the sales of non-EVs



> Step 1 will see the phase-out date for the sale of new petrol and diesel cars and vans brought forward to 2030.
> Step 2 will see all new cars and vans be fully zero emission at the tailpipe from 2035.



You can't make a diesel or petrol ICE car zero emission so no-one is going to be wanting Hybrids or ICE cars pretty soon. Once you can only buy EVs uptake should increase, and there will be less interest in supplying diesel and petrol and more interest in generating taxes that way.


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## StuAff (5 Sep 2021)

Fat lady hasn't sung for the ICE yet. Research being done on synthetic fuels, no plans as yet for motorcycles, those are still to be decided, and there will be a lot of vehicles still on the road…


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## cougie uk (5 Sep 2021)

They'd best speed up the research on synthetic fuels then seeing as EVs are out already. 

Electric motor bikes are available too.

I think the roads will look a lot different in 2030.


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## CXRAndy (5 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Wasn’t even considering an EV for my next car , more a another V6 RRS or a V8 FFRR . Big diesels or petrol engines are not going anywhere and they are not going to tax the hell out of the fuel either. As there will be a huge kick back on that. If it’s hybrid then I’ll probably go for that.



I think you might be surprised. The likes of Norway now are selling virtually all EVs. The ev market share for Norway is over 70% on the roads now. They are banning ICE 2025.

VW are going big now in the hope to flood the market with EVs.


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## StuAff (5 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> They'd best speed up the research on synthetic fuels then seeing as EVs are out already.
> 
> Electric motor bikes are available too.
> 
> I think the roads will look a lot different in 2030.


No doubt. BMW in particular seems to be making rather excellent progress on electric bikes. But there will still be a lot of petrol and diesel vehicles around, and electric isn't the answer for construction vehicles etc, hydrogen seems more likely for those...


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## cougie uk (5 Sep 2021)

StuAff said:


> No doubt. BMW in particular seems to be making rather excellent progress on electric bikes. But there will still be a lot of petrol and diesel vehicles around, and electric isn't the answer for construction vehicles etc, hydrogen seems more likely for those...


Yes JCB seem to be going down the hydrogen route. 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...uring/jcb-unveils-hydrogen-fuelled-combustion


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## mikeIow (6 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Ive not had any maintenance on either of our 2 year old Teslas. Tesla said come back in 3 or 4 years when the car suggests



er…..I said everyone but Tesla….maybe re-read my post!


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## CXRAndy (6 Sep 2021)

Hydrogen has a future but not when its made from fossil fuels like SMR- stem methane reforming. That method makes 95% currently

Hydrogen electrolysis is the only way


----------



## CXRAndy (6 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> er…..I said everyone but Tesla….maybe re-read my post!



If Tesla can make an EV and all others are pretty much following Tesla's basic design. Then there is very little reason to have regular servicing when most of the systems are not required to.

Audi
VW
Porsche
Nissan-new model Ariya
Rivian
Ford
and more

All these now and will expand their OTA systems. Like Tesla there is no need to have your car taken to a dealer. The car will tell you and the dealer what goes wrong and parts are ordered in before you go to the repair centre.


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## figbat (6 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Hydrogen electrolysis is the only way


Only if it can be powered by sustainable energy, otherwise you’re just burning fuel to power a process that takes more energy input than is returned in the output.

Also, don’t forget that hydrogen is not emission-free - you get water from the ‘tailpipe’ and water is a greenhouse gas. Ok if you can condense it and eject as liquid.


----------



## icowden (6 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> If Tesla can make an EV and all others are pretty much following Tesla's basic design. Then there is very little reason to have regular servicing when most of the systems are not required to. All these now and will expand their OTA systems. Like Tesla there is no need to have your car taken to a dealer. The car will tell you and the dealer what goes wrong and parts are ordered in before you go to the repair centre.



Whilst I agree, I do think that a lot of the rival EVs are just the ICE car refitted rather than being designed from scratch as an EV, which is one reason that Tesla tend to have better vehicles. It's like trying to retrofit a bakelite phone to be a smartphone. You could do it, but...


----------



## Tenkaykev (6 Sep 2021)

A


icowden said:


> Whilst I agree, I do think that a lot of the rival EVs are just the ICE car refitted rather than being designed from scratch as an EV, which is one reason that Tesla tend to have better vehicles. It's like trying to retrofit a bakelite phone to be a smartphone. You could do it, but...


Watching the various “ teardowns” of EV’s on the Munro Live channel, it seems like the traditional car manufacturers are somewhat stuck in the older manufacturing mindsets with regards to component usage. Some cynics say it is deliberate, as Ford for example have a large dealer network in the USA, and streamlining and simplifying the construction would adversely affect the dealers future income.


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## CXRAndy (6 Sep 2021)

That's why Hybrids are being pushed. Its the legacy car manufacturers that have huge plants making engines. They had to think of a way to keep selling engines whilst appearing to look green. Hybrids are a con trick. The vast majority dont charge the battery from electric, they use the engine to charge and its rapidly reduces mpg, increase pollution on the move. My XC90 T8 hybrid was a classic example. I never drove it more than 20miles a day and it was fine, but any further mpg would be 35mpg and into low 20s when recharging on the move. I sold it with only 15K miles after 4 years. .

Went full fat pure electric since then. Not looked back. Well over 100,000 miles from our EV cars in 3 and bit years. Our Nissan Leaf accumulating the majority around 70K miles


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## roubaixtuesday (6 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> Also, don’t forget that hydrogen is not emission-free - you get water from the ‘tailpipe’ and water is a greenhouse gas. Ok if you can condense it and eject as liquid.



This is a misunderstanding of the role of water vapour in the atmosphere.

Co2 is referred to as a "Long lived" or "non condensible" greenhouse gas. Water is condensible.

The water cycle continuously refreshes the water vapour in the atmosphere, it's in dynamic equilibrium through evaporation and rainfall. So adding more from cars makes no difference to the greenhouse effect.

To put it another way, there is an infinite quantity of water vapour available through evaporation from the oceans. Anything else is trivial.

The issues with hydrogen are more how it's made (currently mainly from methane, which generates CO2 as a direct byproduct) and it's overall efficiency, which is far poorer than battery round cycle efficiency, so if hydrogen is to be made from electrolysis using renewable electricity, you need 3x more renewable electricity than if you just charge car batteries directly.


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## gzoom (6 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> Whilst I agree, I do think that a lot of the rival EVs are just the ICE car refitted rather than being designed from scratch as an EV, which is one reason that Tesla tend to have better vehicles. It's like trying to retrofit a bakelite phone to be a smartphone. You could do it, but...



Interestingly the Leaf is essentially a Nissan Pulsar, even in the engine bay is almost identical in 12V, coolant lines, aircon lay out!

But the Leaf was still an OK EV, just with a small battery. Servicing wise the Nissan dealer told me all they did was look at it for a bit with a torch than put a stamp in the book. They was NOTHING to really 'service' but Nissan insists on a stamp in the book to keep the warranty intact.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I think you might be surprised. The likes of Norway now are selling virtually all EVs. The ev market share for Norway is over 70% on the roads now. They are banning ICE 2025.
> 
> VW are going big now in the hope to flood the market with EVs.


I’m sure things will move on here but until then I’ll carry on with my big dirty diesel. No EV out there which can tow my twin yet. However that’s not to say my wife’s car could change to an EV. Any EV cabriolets ? That’s not tiny ?


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> You might be surprised. A lot of people are becoming concerned that they would like their children, grandchildren etc to grow up on a better planet, not a worse one. Remember that the UK is stopping the sales of non-EVs



the process of making these EV cars is not very environmentally friendly either so let’s not make that all cuddly! I agree however that we need to do something , but more cars be it electric is not the answer!!


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> Interestingly the Leaf is essentially a Nissan Pulsar, even in the engine bay is almost identical in 12V, coolant lines, aircon lay out!
> 
> But the Leaf was still an OK EV, just with a small battery. Servicing wise the Nissan dealer told me all they did was look at it for a bit with a torch than put a stamp in the book. They was NOTHING to really 'service' but Nissan insists on a stamp in the book to keep the warranty intact.
> 
> ...


My Leaf had its first service last week. At least they washed and vacuumed it so I got something out of it.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> You can't make a diesel or petrol ICE car zero emission so no-one is going to be wanting Hybrids or ICE cars pretty soon. Once you can only buy EVs uptake should increase, and there will be less interest in supplying diesel and petrol and more interest in generating taxes that way.



Why would they not want an ICE car or hybrid ? Depends on use and if there is nothing suitable EV wise to replace. ? Still 9yrs is along time to see what happens. I’m thinking I might be able to pick up a nice bargain diesel/hybrid that will do me a while !


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## gzoom (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> the process of making these EV cars is not very environmentally friendly either so let’s not make that all cuddly! I agree however that we need to do something , but more cars be it electric is not the answer!!



And how much environmental benefit is to be gained if we STOPPED oil extraction, refining, and transport TODAY!!!

The petrol you are filling up your combustion car with doesn't just appear from no where. Where as electricity can literally be made out of thin air. 






Yes you still have to build infrastructure, but you need to build and maintain infrastructure for oil extraction to the same if not greater extent. Why would you waste so much resource on something like this, when for the same resources you can build machines that supply energy without the need to burn hydrocarbons?


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## CXRAndy (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Why would they not want an ICE car or hybrid ? Depends on use and if there is nothing suitable EV wise to replace. ? Still 9yrs is along time to see what happens. I’m thinking I might be able to pick up a nice bargain diesel/hybrid that will do me a while !



Its called the Osborn effect. People will hold off buying anything current for the next thing-EVs.

Just look at the take up in Norway when they announced that 2025 was their ban on ICE, the take has picked up in pace. The Uk is behind Norway's curve ,but still EV sales are gathering momentum. It only needs to have something like a significant jump in fuel costs, emission VED or an expansion of low emission zones in town and cities for ICE vehicles to become far less desirable.


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Why would they not want an ICE car or hybrid ? Depends on use and if there is nothing suitable EV wise to replace. ? Still 9yrs is along time to see what happens. I’m thinking I might be able to pick up a nice bargain diesel/hybrid that will do me a while !


It'll be interesting to see how many petrol stations stay in business. I guess a lot will change and have less pumps and more charging stations.


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## CXRAndy (6 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It'll be interesting to see how many petrol stations stay in business. I guess a lot will change and have less pumps and more charging stations.



My daughter says a local Shell petrol station in London to her is becoming solely electric. I think she said it was completed last month. More and more of this will happen. Mini food malls will pop up, because you can get a small meal whilst waiting for charging. They will be carefully located competition will be fierce to capture EV drivers. Only the best service both electric and food will win


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## Tenkaykev (6 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> My daughter says a local Shell petrol station in London to her is becoming solely electric. I think she said it was completed last month. More and more of this will happen. Mini food malls will pop up, because you can get a small meal whilst waiting for charging. They will be carefully located competition will be fierce to capture EV drivers. Only the best service both electric and food will win


I’d not be surprised to see some sort of “ valet parking/ charging “ offered at some establishments. Edit : for a suitable charge of course 😉


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2021)

Plans announced for a 36 bay station by me with a cafe and working area attached. With so many people working from home this might be useful for them to actually see their colleagues in person occasionally.


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## Pale Rider (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’m thinking I might be able to pick up a nice bargain diesel/hybrid that will do me a while !



Possible, although there may be some who don't fancy the brave new world chasing their last diesel which would increase prices.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It'll be interesting to see how many petrol stations stay in business. I guess a lot will change and have less pumps and more charging stations.



we shall see I suppose but there are none round here with a charger point !


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> we shall see I suppose but there are none round here with a charger point !


How do you charge your phone if you don't have electricity ?


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## vickster (6 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> How do you charge your phone if you don't have electricity ?


In the house, I don't think I'd even get a small hatchback through the front door 🤷‍♀️


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## icowden (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Why would they not want an ICE car or hybrid ?



Because there are not many people who are going to spend thousands of pounds on something that might quickly become expensive and difficult.

Look at the Diesel boom:



> But what encouraged people to drive diesel cars? Well, in the early 2000s, the government changed road tax to a CO2-based system which favoured diesel cars as they generally emit less CO2 than petrol counterparts. In other words, the government threw its weight behind the sector. As such, British car makers heavily invested in the necessary manufacturing processes and flooded the market with suitable diesel cars.
> 
> It wasn’t all about reducing your car tax bill, though. Diesels were promoted as the environmentally-friendly choice because they use less fuel and more air to get the same performance as a petrol engine. This ‘lean-burn’ was a huge selling point.



Now EVs are being promoted as the environmentally-friendly choice because they use no fossil fuel at all and far better performance. The missing link is that Bojo and chums haven't done as much to encourage people to move to EVs as they did to Diesels. As take up increases, EVs will drop in price.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> How do you charge your phone if you don't have electricity ?


In the house , here’s the thing I’ve just done a 250 mile round trip today averaged nearly 60mpg. If I was in an EV I’d have to think about recharging for the trip back ? No idea where I was going to do that I’d need to plan ahead I suppose.  No charge point at the crematorium nor at the Hotel afterwards . I suppose I would need to go searching for one and hope it was free to use. An unusual problem and not everyday but it’s real !!! Sort out the range to that of a normal ICE car and it’s done deal until then it’s gimmicky and next useless in real world IMO!


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## roubaixtuesday (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> In the house , here’s the thing I’ve just done a 250 mile round trip today averaged nearly 60mpg. If I was in an EV I’d have to think about recharging for the trip back ? No idea where I was going to do that I’d need to plan ahead I suppose.  No charge point at the crematorium nor at the Hotel afterwards . I suppose I would need to go searching for one and hope it was free to use. An unusual problem and not everyday but it’s real !!! Sort out the range to that of a normal ICE car and it’s done deal until then it’s gimmicky and next useless in real world IMO!



It's a good question. 

I'm considering similar. Current EVs seem to be around 200-300 mile range, so I guess you'd want an extra 50 miles or so

Fast chargers run at around 50kw, and you get about 4 miles/kw, I've read. Which is 200 miles per hour. 

So you'd need to plan for a stop of 15 minutes en route to feel secure. On what's probably, what, a 4 hour minimum round trip?

I'm just looking at this myself so may have something wrong here.


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## MrGrumpy (6 Sep 2021)

That’s real world stuff , granted might only happen for the example I gave today or holidaying etc. Fix the range and then you have huge appeal until then forget it.

btw when I said the charger was free to use , I meant nobody parked in it charging !


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> In the house , here’s the thing I’ve just done a 250 mile round trip today averaged nearly 60mpg. If I was in an EV I’d have to think about recharging for the trip back ? No idea where I was going to do that I’d need to plan ahead I suppose.  No charge point at the crematorium nor at the Hotel afterwards . I suppose I would need to go searching for one and hope it was free to use. An unusual problem and not everyday but it’s real !!! Sort out the range to that of a normal ICE car and it’s done deal until then it’s gimmicky and next useless in real world IMO!


If you're doing 250 miles you'll have gone past umpteen chargers but you just don't know. 

I've not found any motorway services without charging - maybe they do exist but I've not been to all of them. 

You don't need the range of an ICE car - you really don't. We've had ours for over a year now with a few 300 mile round trips that were no issue. And our range is only about 150 miles.


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## mikeIow (6 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> If Tesla can make an EV and all others are pretty much following Tesla's basic design. Then there is very little reason to have regular servicing when most of the systems are not required to.
> 
> Audi
> VW
> ...



*sigh*
I don’t disagree…but TODAY, afaik, ALL other EV manufacturers still charge for an annual service. Did I miss a memo?

Norway….gave MASSIVE tax incentives to EVs to make them the same price. Here in the UK, all I see is EV prices rising faster.

The Founder of Extinction a rebellion drives a diesel car. 

& this weekend, we head to Edinburgh to repatriate student son’s gear….in our ICE. Only up Sat, back Mon, can’t be wasting hours waiting to charge up our EV! Plus the ICE vehicle can carry more kit….

I just don’t see the rapid change to EVs that some here might like. They simply do not suit all use cases today, & I doubt they will for some years to come.
The “EV only” dates will include hybrids, so we will still have fuel stations around for my lifetime.

On the bright side, a hot 80k today on the bike…that’s proper eco travelling 🤣


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> I don’t disagree…but TODAY, afaik, ALL other EV manufacturers still charge for an annual service. Did I miss a memo



Not sustainable. 

Tesla are bringing out a £25k model soon. Right in the mainstream of Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe models.

If in the market for an EV which brand would you buy, one that has rip off annual service or Tesla, come back in 3 or so years?

There is no necessity to annually service an EV if doing standard yearly mileage. 

Tesla has completely exposed the legacy manufacturers to their pointless revenue streams. 

I expect to see a few car manufacturers to wither in the next few years-saddled with huge engine and gearbox plants, unable to get out from all the costs of decommissioning


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> In the house , here’s the thing I’ve just done a 250 mile round trip today averaged nearly 60mpg. If I was in an EV I’d have to think about recharging for the trip back ? No idea where I was going to do that I’d need to plan ahead I suppose.  No charge point at the crematorium nor at the Hotel afterwards . I suppose I would need to go searching for one and hope it was free to use. An unusual problem and not everyday but it’s real !!! Sort out the range to that of a normal ICE car and it’s done deal until then it’s gimmicky and next useless in real world IMO!



Firstly 250miles if done on motorway is an average of around 50mph, so 5 hours of travelling. That's not safe, not to stop and take a small break. Lots of EV vehicles can do 200-300 miles. 

Stopping at a charger for 5-15 mins would have easily topped up your distance requirements. Virtually all EV have navigation with all the available chargers. The car will route you and give options to stop an certain chargers. 

Like petrol stations, folk dont hang around after charging and there are more charging places now than petrol stations.

Your journey would have cost ~£25 pumped out 30kg of CO2, NOX and billions of particulates in exhaust emissions.

An EV would have cost half that, zero pollution from non existent exhaust


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## mikeIow (7 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Not sustainable.
> 
> Tesla are bringing out a £25k model soon. Right in the mainstream of Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe models.
> 
> ...



You appear stuck in the “buy Tesla or die” mode. 
I too eagerly await the other manufacturers taking the non-annual path to servicing….but it hasn’t happened yet.

Costs of decommissioning ICE plants?
How about the costs and techniques of decommissioning EV batteries?
Or has Tesla solved that too?

You appear to have a very black and white view on things. 
The world, sadly, is rather more grey.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Firstly 250miles if done on motorway is an average of around 50mph, so 5 hours of travelling. That's not safe, not to stop and take a small break. Lots of EV vehicles can do 200-300 miles.
> 
> Stopping at a charger for 5-15 mins would have easily topped up your distance requirements. Virtually all EV have navigation with all the available chargers. The car will route you and give options to stop an certain chargers.
> 
> ...



two drivers my wife and I to go to a funeral. Plenty safe and easy drive with not a worry about stopping to try and find a charging point. As for the zero pollution of EV sorry don’t buy that at all , there is always a hidden cost .


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> You appear stuck in the “buy Tesla or die” mode.
> I too eagerly await the other manufacturers taking the non-annual path to servicing….but it hasn’t happened yet.
> 
> Costs of decommissioning ICE plants?
> ...



No I'm not, get any EV that meets your daily needs. We have Nissan and Tesla. The Nissan gets the most use locally, it does the job admirably. 

The recycling of batteries will be addressed or EVs wil be finished in less than 10 years.


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> two drivers my wife and I to go to a funeral. Plenty safe and easy drive with not a worry about stopping to try and find a charging point. As for the zero pollution of EV sorry don’t buy that at all , there is always a hidden cost .



We too went to a funeral, took two Teslas, 7 of us travelling. Did an 180 mile round trip, charged both cars night before to 220miles each. We too didn't need to stop or find a charger.


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## figbat (7 Sep 2021)

I'm sure you all know already, but in case you missed it it's World EV Day on Thursday. One thing that caught my interest was the series of panel events you can register to join. Maybe worth a look if you are after some further input (from either side of this debate).


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## figbat (7 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> An EV would have cost half that, zero pollution from non existent exhaust


Whilst I am generally supportive of EVs (evidenced by my order of the MINI), let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Zero pollution _at point of use_ is different from an absolute _zero pollution_. EVs do have an exhaust - it is just a remote one that emits the pollution in bulk alongside all the emissions associated with domestic and industrial power supply. At least the EV's emissions are usually away from population centres, produced by an increasingly renewable energy mix and, where they are created by a fuel-burning station, are done so with an ever-present and constant fettling for efficiency.

And EVs also generate tyre and brake particulates and potentially low level ozone too.


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## gzoom (7 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> And EVs also generate tyre and brake particulates and potentially low level ozone too.



More than combustion cars? I've just checked the tyres on our 2ton+ SUV in preparation for a MOT, 25k miles done still 3mm+ of tread left (4mm on the rear).

Brake pad wear seems to be 50k per set, not bad for a car of its size. Smaller EVs wouldn't need pads till 70k+ miles.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> At least the EV's emissions are usually away from population centres, produced by an increasingly renewable energy mix and, where they are created by a fuel-burning station, are done so with an ever-present and constant fettling for efficiency.



As I understand it, the total efficiency of EVs is such that even if the leccy is generated from fossil fuels, they're still more efficient than ICE cars.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> brake particulates



I wonder how much regenerative braking reduces this by compared to ICE cars?


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I wonder how much regenerative braking reduces this by compared to ICE cars?



I can do a 70 mile journey involving numerous stop points and not touch the brakes once. Thats how good regen is. Both our main use cars come to a full stop using regen alone. It only takes a few drives to perfect regen stopping 

Re tyres. Our first set on the Nissan were changed at 51000 miles. Brakes have virtually no wear at 70K miles


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> We too went to a funeral, took two Teslas, 7 of us travelling. Did an 180 mile round trip, charged both cars night before to 220miles each. We too didn't need to stop or find a charger.


Two Tesla’s now your showing off .


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I can do a 70 mile journey involving numerous stop points and not touch the brakes once. Thats how good regen is. Both our main use cars come to a full stop using regen alone. It only takes a few drives to perfect regen stopping
> 
> Re tyres. Our first set on the Nissan were changed at 51000 miles. Brakes have virtually no wear at 70K miles



Thanks for all the info on this thread, much appreciated.

A few things hold me back ATM.

(1) Tightfisted yorkshireness. I'm not a car person and quite happy with our ancient Galaxy which does everything I need at near zero cost. I do hate unreliable cars though, so if it starts to go wrong I'll replace it.

(2) Tandem transporting. There's no other practical way to get a tandem around other than on a car roof. Getting to the Alps is a 16 hour continuous journey and *just* doable in a day but knackers the fuel efficiency - so will knacker the range on an EV. That makes it at least a 2 day journey I think. Maybe even three...

(3) Charger networks. It sounds a bit of a nightmare at the moment on interconnectivity of various charger networks, apps etc. Someone upthread said you can't use Tesla charger on non-Teslas yet, though planned. I'm guessing a cross Europe journey makes all this yet worse. Certainly possible, but a hassle.

So I think I'll hold off until the Galaxy dies a natural death and take the plunge then. An e-Niro looks to be the job at the moment, but hopefully more choice will come too.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Two Tesla’s now your showing off .



He's John Prescott Jnr


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## icowden (7 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> I too eagerly await the other manufacturers taking the non-annual path to servicing….but it hasn’t happened yet.



Yes. It's almost like the other manufacturers are just converting what they did with their ICE cars to doing the same but sticking some motors in.
They are all starting to wake up to the fact that they have billions of dollars worth of assets that are *very* quickly going to become obsolete. If demand drops for diesels and petrol cars, that's a huge amount of investment that won't sell. 

The reason that Tesla fans tend to be a bit die hard is that a Tesla is not just a diesel / petrol car converted to run on electricity. It is a full design from the ground up with the ultimate aim of producing fully autonomous cars. As I have said before - you can't convert a Nokia 3210 into a smart phone effectively nor a Bakelite rotary dial phone into a Nokia 3210. Starting from scratch has allowed Tesla to absolutely dominate the market, to the point that most owners will say that they have had some issues, but they wouldn't change to another manufacturer.


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## icowden (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> (1) Tightfisted yorkshireness. I'm not a car person and quite happy with our ancient Galaxy which does everything I need at near zero cost. I do hate unreliable cars though, so if it starts to go wrong I'll replace it.
> 
> (2) Tandem transporting. There's no other practical way to get a tandem around other than on a car roof. Getting to the Alps is a 16 hour continuous journey and *just* doable in a day but knackers the fuel efficiency - so will knacker the range on an EV. That makes it at least a 2 day journey I think. Maybe even three...
> 
> (3) Charger networks. It sounds a bit of a nightmare at the moment on interconnectivity of various charger networks, apps etc. Someone upthread said you can't use Tesla charger on non-Teslas yet, though planned. I'm guessing a cross Europe journey makes all this yet worse. Certainly possible, but a hassle.



I agree with all of those. I slightly boggle that anyone can make a 16 hour continuous journey though. Surely you must stop a few times for a wee break? If so, you can pick up a large amount of range in short time on a supercharger (they are designed to charge really fast in the middle bracket of the full range - it's much quicker to get from 50 miles to say 200 miles than from 200 to 250 miles). But yes, at present you would probably need to stop a couple of times to charge depending on which vehicle you had.

If you don't go Tesla then yes, you can't use a Tesla charger yet. Musk has said that this will be changing in the next few months though. There is a small learning curve on the different cable / charger compatibility though. On the other hand most cars will help you find a suitable charger on route. 

Like me, for your use case, the Tesla Y is probably the best option. A Tesla X would be best, but is incredibly expensive. One for the lottery win <sigh>.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> Yes. It's almost like the other manufacturers are just converting what they did with their ICE cars to doing the same but sticking some motors in.
> They are all starting to wake up to the fact that they have billions of dollars worth of assets that are *very* quickly going to become obsolete. If demand drops for diesels and petrol cars, that's a huge amount of investment that won't sell.
> 
> The reason that Tesla fans tend to be a bit die hard is that a Tesla is not just a diesel / petrol car converted to run on electricity. It is a full design from the ground up with the ultimate aim of producing fully autonomous cars. As I have said before - you can't convert a Nokia 3210 into a smart phone effectively nor a Bakelite rotary dial phone into a Nokia 3210. Starting from scratch has allowed Tesla to absolutely dominate the market, to the point that most owners will say that they have had some issues, but they wouldn't change to another manufacturer.


No offence I’ve seen a Tesla in the flesh ( bro in law owns one ) it’s not a Bonny car  . However beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Personally I think he was sucked in and regrets the purchase which evidenced by the fact they use the BMW X1 more now .


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> I agree with all of those. I slightly boggle that anyone can make a 16 hour continuous journey though. Surely you must stop a few times for a wee break?



Sorry, not completely continuous, but more or less - ie drive for a couple of hours, swap, go again, 80mph on French motorways reduces the fuel efficiency by about 2/3 or more, about 30-35mpg rather than 45-50 without the bikes. Need to refuel probably twice with a diesel.

So I'd guess the best you'd get would be, what, 150 miles on an EV, it's about a 900 mile journey, need best part of an hour recharging each time even on a rapid charger I think, maybe 6 charges? Definitely makes it 2 days rather than one, I think.

This is a completely atypical scenario, no other journey I do would be a serious problem. And even this would be OK, a minor inconvenience *if* I was confident about all the availability, interconnectivity etc. As two days is more civilise than one anyway.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2021)

I’m hoping EV development continues at pace. A reliable charging network and vehicles capable of doing what I can do now. However I’m thinking I’ll probably have sold my caravan by then , so my needs might be different.


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## icowden (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> So I'd guess the best you'd get would be, what, 150 miles on an EV, it's about a 900 mile journey, need best part of an hour recharging each time even on a rapid charger I think, maybe 6 charges? Definitely makes it 2 days rather than one, I think.



That seems fair although @gzoom is probably best able to corroborate. I think you would probably get away with a 15 to 20 minute charge if you were using Tesla superchargers. They can deliver a lot of range very quickly. Below is an example of a Model 3 gaining 100 miles in 7 minutes.

https://electrek.co/2019/07/02/tesla-supercharger-v3-range-minutes/



> 2% – 10 miles – 0 mins (126 kW)
> 5% – 16 miles – 1 min (250 kW)
> 20% – 62 miles – 4 mins (250 kW)
> 21% – 65 miles – 4.5 mins (Taper from peak starts – 248 kW)
> ...



So it does taper.

A Tesla Model 3 has about 350 miles of range. The Y would probably be similar. With the tandem on the top that might drop to say 200 miles worst case (just guessing). I'd say more like 250 but I am an optimist. So 5 stops seems reasonable. You might choose to do 6 or 7 20 minute stops or 4 30 minute stops I suppose. Still - 2 days does not seem totally unreasonable for 900 miles . If the drag and speed isn't as costly then obviously you could do fewer stops.


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## MrGrumpy (7 Sep 2021)

Food for thought , I see we had to fire up two coal fired Power Stations due to leccy demand ! You just wonder how we are all going to cope if we all drive about in leccy vehicles!


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Thanks for all the info on this thread, much appreciated.
> 
> A few things hold me back ATM.
> 
> ...



Im Yorkshire man too

There isnt really a problem with charging networks. Government told various supplierd to allow contactless payment. This is happening now and even though i dont use other networks than Tesla's much, Ive found most do contactless. A tandem is a little bit different for transportation


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

More wind and solar


MrGrumpy said:


> Food for thought , I see we had to fire up two coal fired Power Stations due to leccy demand ! You just wonder how we are all going to cope if we all drive about in leccy vehicles!


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

If he wants to sell it let me know, my daughter is looking for a Tesla? 


MrGrumpy said:


> No offence I’ve seen a Tesla in the flesh ( bro in law owns one ) it’s not a Bonny car  . However beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Personally I think he was sucked in and regrets the purchase which evidenced by the fact they use the BMW X1 more now .


----------



## cougie uk (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Sorry, not completely continuous, but more or less - ie drive for a couple of hours, swap, go again, 80mph on French motorways reduces the fuel efficiency by about 2/3 or more, about 30-35mpg rather than 45-50 without the bikes. Need to refuel probably twice with a diesel.
> 
> So I'd guess the best you'd get would be, what, 150 miles on an EV, it's about a 900 mile journey, need best part of an hour recharging each time even on a rapid charger I think, maybe 6 charges? Definitely makes it 2 days rather than one, I think.
> 
> This is a completely atypical scenario, no other journey I do would be a serious problem. And even this would be OK, a minor inconvenience *if* I was confident about all the availability, interconnectivity etc. As two days is more civilise than one anyway.



It's a bit weird to base your car buying around the one long journey you do ?

You'll probably have 1/4 of the fuel bill the rest of the year so you could use the savings to hire a car for the holiday ?

And when you stop and swap drivers - do you not have a comfort break or eat during this 16 hour mammoth drive ? I don't think EVs would slow you as much as you think.


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## roubaixtuesday (7 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It's a bit weird to base your car buying around the one long journey you do ?
> 
> You'll probably have 1/4 of the fuel bill the rest of the year so you could use the savings to hire a car for the holiday ?



You could be right - but that would require getting a tandem carrier set up for a hire car, which could be a total PITA and might scupper the whole thing.

I did try to get S&S couplings to allow dismantling, but the tubes are ovalised...

[edit: I'm going to bow out now as it's rather niche and not a live issue for me and I don't want to derail the very interesting thread. Also to note that we won't base car buying around the one journey - it was more musing about the impact of it. When the current car dies, we'll almost certainly replace with an EV & take any adverse consequences on long journeys for the quid pro quo elsewhere]


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## figbat (7 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> More than combustion cars? I've just checked the tyres on our 2ton+ SUV in preparation for a MOT, 25k miles done still 3mm+ of tread left (4mm on the rear).
> 
> Brake pad wear seems to be 50k per set, not bad for a car of its size. Smaller EVs wouldn't need pads till 70k+ miles.


I wasn’t comparing to an ICE car, just pointing out that an EV is not without its pollution.


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## figbat (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I wonder how much regenerative braking reduces this by compared to ICE cars?


A lot I would imagine, possibly even enough to lead to brake seizing issues through lack of use?


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## figbat (7 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> As I understand it, the total efficiency of EVs is such that even if the leccy is generated from fossil fuels, they're still more efficient than ICE cars.


I think there are data to sway it either way and it depends a lot on the grid, distance from source generation and so on. On the move an EV is still a weighty, draggy thing so the efficiency difference is down to how the energy is converted to mechanical motion, whether at a power station and transmitted down cables or in situ and transmitted through driveshafts. Ultimately though the single biggest efficiency factor of any vehicle, by some margin, is driver behaviour.


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## BrumJim (7 Sep 2021)

figbat said:


> A lot I would imagine, possibly even enough to lead to brake seizing issues through lack of use?



Friction braking is always used, but only for the last part of the stopping. In my car, anything below 6 mile/h is friction only. However majority of pad wear will occur at higher speeds, due to the energy levels being dissipated.


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## All uphill (7 Sep 2021)

I've been following this discussion with interest; our petrol car is old and high miles so it won't be too long before we will need to make some decisions.

It seems to me that the first decision is if car ownership is truly essential; I would love to be free of the parking/maintenance/purchase issues if a good hire or community scheme is available.

If ownership was essential because of unavoidable daily use I would not hesitate to go EV after hearing the experiences of neighbours with plug in hybrids and Teslas.


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## icowden (7 Sep 2021)

All uphill said:


> It seems to me that the first decision is if car ownership is truly essential; I would love to be free of the parking/maintenance/purchase issues if a good hire or community scheme is available.



This is a good point, and the strangest part of Musk's strategy. Once roboTeslas are available, in theory many people will ask whether they need to own a car, if a Tesla can pootle up and take them where they want to go, for less than it would cost to own a car and go yourself. Taxi drivers are people and therefore an additional expense at the moment (if not the main expense). Obviously this will appeal more to those living in relatively well populated areas.


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## Electric_Andy (7 Sep 2021)

I don't own an EV but we drove from Plymouth to Cumbria last week in my parnter's Diesel. We stopped twice for food/wee and I only saw 1 or 2 charging stations in the car parks, but they were empty. If we had an EV I'm sure we could have planned the journey and done it comfortably. I understand that we should adapt our behaviours to newer forms of transport, but some of the alternatives are way too expensive. I suppose we could have driven to Bristol and flown to Newcastle, and then got the train to Penrith. Or paid £200 each to go on the train. I'd have to wait for the EV 2nd hand market to be booming before I consider it.


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## CXRAndy (7 Sep 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Friction braking is always used, but only for the last part of the stopping. In my car, anything below 6 mile/h is friction only. However majority of pad wear will occur at higher speeds, due to the energy levels being dissipated.


Not on Tesla, the Nissan Leaf uses brakes for the last few ft of coming to a full stop. Tesla model 3 use the motors. Model S that dont have the reluctant induction motor cant/wont come to a full stop- say Tesla. BUT, they will stop if using adaptive cruise control.


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## Bazzer (7 Sep 2021)

My Golf PHEV needs the brakes for the final stop on regen, but it will also stop using the ACC. I don't know what combination of regen or brakes it uses on ACC as both will illuminate the brake lights. Having the car stop behind another without my foot on the brake, is still too buttock clenching to be concentrating on quite how the car is dealing with the stop.


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## gzoom (7 Sep 2021)

All uphill said:


> It seems to me that the first decision is if car ownership is truly essential; I would love to be free of the parking/maintenance/purchase issues if a good hire or community scheme is available.



This is exactly why Tesla as a company is currently valued at *DOULBE *the worth of Toyota and VAG combined, despite making only barely more cars than JLR (whom lurches from one survival plan to another).

If we can truly remove the need for human drivers than car ownership will pretty much disappear, you will simply summon an autonomous car to take you some where than forget about it as you arrive at the destination. No more worries about parking, insurance, maintance etc.

Lorries on M-ways could disappear overnight literally, why clog up the M-way network during the day when you can have autonomous lorries run all night long? The potential applications are mind boggling, and the fact its even been discussed as a possibility is simply crazy talk. 

It sounds like Sci-Fi, but Thunderbird 1 was also Sci-Fi till very recently, and Thunderbird 2 is also nearly with us. NASA said is was impossible to land rocket boosters which why the Shuttle was developed at great expense, but here we are.


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## cougie uk (7 Sep 2021)

To be fair to NASA - the space shuttle was designed what 40 plus years ago ?


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## CXRAndy (8 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> To be fair to NASA - the space shuttle was designed what 40 plus years ago ?


Thunderbirds was nearly 60 years ago 

Taken this long to perfect what a tiny British (animator) company did in their shed


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## CXRAndy (8 Sep 2021)

Last month was a milestone, full EVs outsold diesels in the UK. The tide has turned


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## gzoom (8 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Last month was a milestone, full EVs outsold diesels in the UK. The tide has turned



Pretty unthinkable even just last year!!


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## nickyboy (13 Sep 2021)

Was in the Audi and Mercedes dealerships on Saturday and idly chatting with the sales person. 

"EVs and PHEVs are gaining in popularity but they must have a long way to go before they outstrip convention fuel models"

"Not at all. We are currently getting more orders here for EV and PHEV"


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## CXRAndy (13 Sep 2021)

Tesla model 3 is UK's best selling car, currently. This includes petrol cars.


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## nickyboy (13 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Tesla model 3 is UK's best selling car, currently. This includes petrol cars.


You sure about that?

New car registrations August 2021. Tesla isn't even in the top ten

https://www.whatcar.com/best/july-2021-new-car-sales-revealed-who-were-the-winners-and-losers/n17053


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## CXRAndy (13 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> You sure about that?
> 
> New car registrations August 2021. Tesla isn't even in the top ten
> 
> https://www.whatcar.com/best/july-2021-new-car-sales-revealed-who-were-the-winners-and-losers/n17053



According to SMMT yes


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## mikeIow (13 Sep 2021)

That says June.....


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## CXRAndy (14 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> That says June.....



I assume there is a month or May be two lag in data publication. Feel free to have a look


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## matticus (14 Sep 2021)

(I'm just going to drop this in, apologies for diving into a long-running thread.) Just got this email from our site landlords (large science park):

*Subject*: Continuing Issues with the EV Chargers

Good afternoon,
We are experiencing an intermittent fault with the EV charging units, some are working and some are not.
The chargers require a new component to be fitted in each of the units however, due to a global supply chain issue with the required component, it may take several weeks for the matter to be resolved
As the fault is intermittent, we will remove the ‘out of order’ signs so you may attempt to use them but we can’t guarantee that they will be working at present so, you are unable to rely on being able to charge your vehicle on site for the time-being
We apologise for the inconvenience this causes and will be in touch with updates as soon as we can.


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## mikeIow (15 Sep 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I assume there is a month or May be two lag in data publication. Feel free to have a look


Why would I want to?
You were the one claiming the best-selling car thing, I was just pointing out the two set of stats looked to be from different months!

Wouldn't surprise me though, given how Tesla are churning them out and given how popular they are for company car drivers.

Stopped off at a motorway services on run back from Edinburgh on Monday. We had to take the XC60 due to limited time and the capacity we needed....glad we did!
2 cars in the 2 charge bays.
We parked up, & saw the Polestar leave. The Peugeot parked in the other bay then moved over - clearly only 50% chargers working there 👀

Emphasises how the dedicated Tesla charging perhaps still remains the main viable solution to public chargepoints: if we'd have needed a charge there with our Kona, we would have been in for a much longer stop than the 20 minutes we had for a loo and coffee stop!!


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## Bazzer (18 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> Why would I want to?
> You were the one claiming the best-selling car thing, I was just pointing out the two set of stats looked to be from different months!
> 
> Wouldn't surprise me though, given how Tesla are churning them out and given how popular they are for company car drivers.
> ...


Mrs B and I have just returned from a week in Devon. We took her Tiguan, but out of curiosity on each of the two stops we made each way, I looked at the charge points, should we have taken my Golf GTE. Both for availability of the charge points, but also the cost.
On both the journey down, (travelling mid morning to late afternoon) and home, (leaving 5.30am and home 11am), we could have charged an electric car as we parked up. The journey down was particularly surprising, as the service stations we stopped at were very busy.
All of the vacant charge stations appeared to be working. That is to say, the displays indicated they were working.
Perhaps it was just good timing on our part?


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## Archie_tect (18 Sep 2021)

On a long journey the cost of charging at motorway fast charging points is as expensive as buying petrol or diesel at a supermarket. I was really disappointed when I worked it out.

With our plug-in hybrid Seat Leon we gain charging at home but there's no benefit plugging in at motorway services.

When full EVs become cheaper and we can get a small family estate one we will but can't contemplate it until then. Paying out over £13000 more to get an EV was a step too far.


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## cougie uk (18 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> On a long journey the cost of charging at motorway fast charging points is as expensive as buying petrol or diesel at a supermarket. I was really disappointed when I worked it out.
> 
> With our plug-in hybrid Seat Leon we gain charging at home but there's no benefit plugging in at motorway services.
> 
> When full EVs become cheaper and we can get a small family estate one we will but can't contemplate it until then. Paying out over £13000 more to get an EV was a step too far.


The ones I've used are 30p per kWh. 
I think the ultra fast ones are double that but do you really need that speed ?


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## Archie_tect (18 Sep 2021)

Our plug-in hybrid has a capacity of 13.4 kW so costs £4.02 to charge up at 30p/kW. That will take us 34m if I'm careful. which is 11.8p/mile. 

At home on our current domestic supply [not Economy 7] it's just over 6p/mile.

A gallon of petrol on the motorway gets us roughly 55miles and costs £6.04 [£1.34/litre at Tescos up here] which is 10.9p/mile.

Ironically our old diesel Seat estate did 72mpg so worked out at 8.5p/mile.

Full EV cars with sufficient range for longer journeys, charged overnight at home on 6p/kW Economy 7, work out at 2.3p/mile - which means an EV car, costing £13,000 more to buy, than our plug-in hybrid doing 10000 miles a year, breaks even after,15 years. Hopefully the technology will have moved on in the next five to make EVs far more economic.

This is not a compelling argument to spend the extra until second hand EVs come onto the market with [say] better than 250mile range between Economy 7 charges. Factor in commercial charging rates and they will never be economic to run. This does nit take into consideration battery life/ servicing an ICE car etc.

... that's why Shell and BP have invested so heavily in the EV charging infrastructure because they know they have a captive market once the oil runs out. More fool the National Grid and electric suppliers for allowing the oil companies to run the show.


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## mikeIow (19 Sep 2021)

Our Octopus Go Faster tariff gives us 5p/kWh for 4 hours, so 28kWh for £1.40. We get around 4 miles/kWh from the Kona, so that is over 100miles. 1.4p/mile 😇 
Maybe we can break even within the 8yr battery warranty period 🤪

Things will change….energy costs are only going one way, unless you have your own private solar farm 😳 (just roof panels don’t _really_ count - we have them, & on a great day we might get around 20kWh generated, but those are not the UK “normal”…..plus we have other things using that energy too)

So far, it also feels that EV costs are only going up….I feel like we still await a lower cost (£ and environmental - batteries are not perfect)

In the meantime, each human can only do what is right and affordable for them 👍


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## gzoom (19 Sep 2021)

mikeIow said:


> Things will change….energy costs are only going one way



Even with price increase its still pretty cheap, our E7 night rate has gone from 7p per kWh to 12p per kWh over the last 18 months or so. But even with our relative inefficient EV at 12p per kWh its costing us 4p per mile in fuel. At current fuel costs of £1.35/L for unleaded and a true 50mpg, our Lexus hybrid costs 12.2p/mile, so still three times as much.

Not forgetting the lack of servicing costs of the EV, and the fact we actually have 'Free for life Supercharging' on ours with some Supercharger costs now going up to 40p/kWh at some sites over the next few years it may actually save up a reasonable amount of £.

As people have also suggested VED on EVs cannot remain £0 forever, it really is a case of getting in early before everyone else does and the costs go up.


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## CXRAndy (19 Sep 2021)

Dont forget the zero whilst travelling emissions. A big aspect of owning an EV


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

Well at least someone recognises the cost benefit ratio of EVs. A lot of man maths at work  . I think we really ought to stop driving as often !  In any car !


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> Our plug-in hybrid has a capacity of 13.4 kW so costs £4.02 to charge up at 30p/kW. That will take us 34m if I'm careful. which is 11.8p/mile.
> 
> At home on our current domestic supply [not Economy 7] it's just over 6p/mile.
> 
> ...



Excellent effort by @Archie_tect to work out the various pences per mile a lot of us could expect.

Another upward pressure on EV costs, albeit a relatively minor one, is I think it's unrealistic to expect most owners to cover every mile at their cheapest at home tariff.

Inevitably, if I had an EV I would end up suffering some high cost motorway recharges purely out of convenience, not to say necessity.

Several posts on this thread indicate charging away from home - at any tariff - may not be as easy as EV proponents would have us believe.

Too many tales of full EV bays/broken chargers for my liking.

None of which is insurmountable, but once again it comes down to alternative cost.

Recharging uncertainty and possible aggro against refuelling certainty and no aggro.

I know which I'd choose at present, although that situation may change in the coming years.


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## nickyboy (19 Sep 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Excellent effort by @Archie_tect to work out the various pences per mile a lot of us could expect.
> 
> Another upward pressure on EV costs, albeit a relatively minor one, is I think it's unrealistic to expect most owners to cover every mile at their cheapest at home tariff.
> 
> ...


It's interesting that your rationale is entirely based on cost to YOU and aggro to YOU and nothing about potentially reduced emissions which are a benefit for ALL


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## Bazzer (19 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> The ones I've used are 30p per kWh.
> I think the ultra fast ones are double that but do you really need that speed ?


That (30p) was the cost I had noted when I looked at the charging price. Diesel was being sold at £1.58 per litre, with petrol 0.05p per litre cheaper.


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

When EVs are so much more expensive to buy the fact that they are better for the environment has no bearing as people just can't afford them... It;'s like asking everyone to invest in phase change materials to 'store' heat from solar gain during the day to release when it's needed. The idea to preserve energy being lost at source is a no-brainer but the cost is off the scale. [Phase change material technology has been around since the late 70s.]


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

Bazzer said:


> That (30p) was the cost I had noted when I looked at the charging price. Diesel was being sold at £1.58 per litre, with petrol 0.05p per litre cheaper.


No-one buys fuel at motorway services though... so the actual cost is around £1.34 for petrol and £1.39 for diesel at supermarkets... Costco was £1.19/litre for petrol and £1.24/litre for diesel a couple of weeks ago.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> It's interesting that your rationale is entirely based on cost to YOU and aggro to YOU and nothing about potentially reduced emissions which are a benefit for ALL


Pollution from vehicles is a mear drop in the ocean , however we all will need to do our bit I suppose. The way I see it our biggest problem is China, being the largest producer of CO2 into the atmosphere. However whether we like it or not they are that intertwined in everything it’s a hard nut to crack !


----------



## All uphill (19 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Pollution from vehicles is a mear drop in the ocean , however we all will need to do our bit I suppose. The way I see it our biggest problem is China, being the largest producer of CO2 into the atmosphere. However whether we like it or not they are that intertwined in everything it’s a hard nut to crack !


Seems to me we exported our polluting to China along with our manufacturing. I frequently buy bike bits that originate there and am aware that by doing so I am contributing to their polluting.

I guess a big part of the solution is to consume less.


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## roubaixtuesday (19 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Pollution from vehicles is a mear drop in the ocean



Transport emissions are a significant part of overall greenhouse emissions.

Following from US EPA


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## Bazzer (19 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> No-one buys fuel at motorway services though... so the actual cost is around £1.34 for petrol and £1.39 for diesel at supermarkets... Costco was £1.19/litre for petrol and £1.24/litre for diesel a couple of weeks ago.


I appreciate the fuel at the motorway services was around 0.20p per litre than I paid both before we left for Devon and actually in Devon. The figures quoted were so that anyone who wished to disect the figures was comparing like with like. After all, some people do use motorway services both for liquid fuel and recharging batteries.
I'll confess to not knowing how much the angry pixies cost at local charging stations because of charging at home. It was simply that I had the opportunity of a long journey to see what costs were, already knowing liquid fuel was more expensive.


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## Pale Rider (19 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> It's interesting that your rationale is entirely based on cost to YOU and aggro to YOU and nothing about potentially reduced emissions which are a benefit for ALL



Not really, I post honestly what I think, not what might garner a few likes on a cycling forum.

In any case, the overall environmental impact of EVs remains a matter for debate.

Leaving aside propulsion systems, I have long thought it would be a lot greener if we all bought fewer brand new cars.

In other words, trading in something perfectly serviceable at two or three years old to buy a new vehicle, with all its attendant manufacturing costs to the environment.


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## roubaixtuesday (19 Sep 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Leaving aside propulsion systems, I have long thought it would be a lot greener if we all bought fewer brand new cars.
> 
> In other words, trading in something perfectly serviceable at two or three years old to buy a new vehicle, with all its attendant manufacturing costs to the environment.



I agree with this as a general principle but for the specific issue of vehicle greenhouse emissions it's not true, at least on average. 

Replacing an existing ICE car with a brand new EV pays back on emissions in 4 years or so. 

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

What we all need [globally] is a target to generate electricity from PV and then link every country across the globe so that power is no longer a commodity to be bought and sold... there is the means and there certainly is enough insolation from the sun to do it hundreds of thousands of time over... it's currently wasted energy. The next step is to give everyone free electricity to power and heat their homes and their transportation whether it be public or private.

It's not a pipe dream- the technology and the free solar energy already exists... it just takes a few of the hundreds of billionaires and the richest nations across the world to release their funds to do it!

What we must NOT do is allow fossil fuels to be used to power the electricity generating industry... that save s the planet nothing in emissions and compounds the problem. Yes we'd have to use finite resources to produce the PV panels and batteries- but unlike fossil fuels, metal elements can be recycled indefinitely.


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## gzoom (19 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> The way I see it our biggest problem is China, being the largest producer of CO2 into the atmosphere.



So only those living in the west/1st world countries are allowed to consume and waste energy?

What makes us so special we can dictate to others how to behave or strive for interms of living standards?


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## cougie uk (19 Sep 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Excellent effort by @Archie_tect to work out the various pences per mile a lot of us could expect.
> 
> Another upward pressure on EV costs, albeit a relatively minor one, is I think it's unrealistic to expect most owners to cover every mile at their cheapest at home tariff.
> 
> ...



I've had our EV for over a year now. Only charged away from home 
Only paid to charge six times - all on holiday. Tesco has free charging. 
Unless you're doing huge mileages charging stations aren't a big expense.


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I've had our EV for over a year now. Only charged away from home
> Only paid to charge six times - all on holiday. Tesco has free charging.
> Unless you're doing huge mileages charging stations aren't a big expense.


Tescos doesn't have free charging- the customers are paying for the electricity you've acquired for nothing and the Tesco customers are subsidising your travel at whatever £/kwhr Tescos buy their electricity.


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## cougie uk (19 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> Tescos doesn't have free charging- the customers are paying for the electricity used... if your car has a 35kw battery, the Tesco customers are subsidising your travel at whatever £/kwhr Tescos buy their electricity.


Whatever. It'd be silly to drive my petrol car there and pay for fuel when I can drive there and back and have more electric in the car than when I started. 
That's free to me. 😊


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

Of course you use it- you'd be daft not to.

Tescos will treat free electricity as a trade-off, like they do all knock-down offers, to get more EV customers into their shops- thereby generating a higher footfall and therefore more sales... it's just marketing paid for through turnover.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> So only those living in the west/1st world countries are allowed to consume and waste energy?
> 
> What makes us so special we can dictate to others how to behave or strive for interms of living standards?


yes …… we are pissing in the wind if they don’t do f all about it !


----------



## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

The 'rate of increase' in the world's average temperature and the accompanying climate issues have already past their tipping point some years ago. What we are trying to do now is slow that rate of increase down... everyone plays a part however small but if everyone does nothing then the effects will occur quicker... instead of our grandchildren having to deal with massive changes, our children will. [Thanks Dad!]


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Transport emissions are a significant part of overall greenhouse emissions.
> 
> Following from US EPA
> 
> View attachment 610040


👍🏻 Be interesting to see what the breakdown is per country


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> The 'rate of increase' in the world's average temperature and the accompanying climate issues have already past their tipping point some years ago. What we are trying to do now is slow that rate of increase down... everyone plays a part however small but if everyone does nothing then the effects will occur quicker... instead of our grandchildren having to deal with, our children will. [Thanks Dad!]


Absolutely not sure if EV will fit into this . Not with the current energy demand we have just now. Gas and leccy wholesale price rising massively !


----------



## gzoom (19 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> yes …… we are pissing in the wind if they don’t do f all about it !



So screw every other human being on this planet as long as you are comfy??

That's the kind of attitude the world needs more of .


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## MrGrumpy (19 Sep 2021)

Whatever…..


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## roubaixtuesday (19 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> 👍🏻 Be interesting to see what the breakdown is per country



https://lmgtfy.app/?q=carbon+emissions+by+country


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> https://lmgtfy.app/?q=carbon+emissions+by+country


Even more enlightening is the figure per capita which tells a fairer story::






So, even though China's industrial might and output outstrips the rest of the world [which is why it uses the most energy] it is well below the west in terms of waste and harmful impacts.

Makes you think doesn't it? This is where each person's efforts to do something, however small they may appear to be, make a real difference, and having an EV or even better no car at all [when there is a viable public access alternative] will steer us in the right direction providing those in power take the necessary steps to stop using fossil fuels NOW!


----------



## roubaixtuesday (19 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> Even more enlightening is the figure per capita which tells a fairer story::
> View attachment 610056
> 
> 
> ...



It would be even more informative to have a table including embedded carbon from trade.

This gives some indication of the impact of exporting our carbon emissions by globalising trade. 

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/...b=chart&country=Europe~USA~CHN~Africa~GBR~JPN


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## gzoom (19 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> So, even though China's industrial might and output outstrips the rest of the world [which is why it uses the most energy] it is well below the west in terms of waste and harmful impacts.



As some on there would say 'Whatever'

The sad reality is most human beings (my self included) as selfish first and every thing else is a nice to do but only of it doesn't impact on our quality of life.

As a species we are pretty much doomed, the best any of us can hopeful is we don't live long enough to see effects of our actions, though that remains to be seen.


----------



## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> It would be even more informative to have a table including embedded carbon from trade.
> 
> This gives some indication of the impact of exporting our carbon emissions by globalising trade.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the marketing genius of off-setting carbon emissions to make UK companies green!!! Get rich and pile the problems on the third world.


----------



## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> As some on there would say 'Whatever'
> 
> The sad reality is most human beings (my self included) as selfish first and every thing else is a nice to do but only of it doesn't impact on our quality of life.
> 
> As a species we are pretty much doomed, the best any of us can hopeful is we don't live long enough to see effects of our actions, though that remains to be seen.


Just as well this negativity is countered by the people who can see a way forward and are doing whatever it takes to push it through for future generations.

Newton's Third Law!


----------



## neil_merseyside (19 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> It's interesting that your rationale is entirely based on cost to YOU and aggro to YOU and nothing about potentially reduced emissions which are a benefit for ALL


Some of us can't afford to think of the big picture, some of us without kids just don't give a toss, some people mention getting the soon to be very cheap diesels, and 'to hell' with the particulates (or I guess big petrols, CO2?) and all potentially just to annoy the eco evangelists. 
Just some of the comments I know of - and I giggle at a few!


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## Archie_tect (19 Sep 2021)

'Cheap diesels' and 'big patrols' will be heavily taxed to make them less viable with additional incentives to scrap them.

People who like to annoy others for fun will find other outlets as environmental taxation bites into their lifestyles- they might not even be aware of it as it'll be insidious,


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## Archie_tect (20 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Absolutely not sure if EV will fit into this . Not with the current energy demand we have just now. Gas and leccy wholesale price rising massively !


Ten years ago I took part in a study funded by the National Grid with universities providing research which looked at financial incentivised controlled electricity black-outs for businesses midweek between4pm and 8pm so that the National Grid could manage the surge in demand after children get hoe from school.

They also looked at local community battery storage for housing estates where the heat generated in the electric distribution cables was a real problem, and it's going to get worse, when PV electric generated on house roofs being fed back into the grid was overheating the system.


----------



## cougie uk (20 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Absolutely not sure if EV will fit into this . Not with the current energy demand we have just now. Gas and leccy wholesale price rising massively !



Only in the UK strangely. The rest of Europe seem fine. Any idea what the issue is ? 


View: https://twitter.com/mac_puck/status/1439835906609909763?s=19


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## Pale Rider (20 Sep 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> Even more enlightening is the figure per capita which tells a fairer story::
> View attachment 610056
> 
> 
> ...



The Aussies should be allowed to count their sheep to bring their per capita number down a bit.


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## Archie_tect (20 Sep 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> The Aussies should be allowed to count their sheep to bring their per capita number down a bit.


They'd never stay awake long enough to know how many they had.


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## nickyboy (28 Sep 2021)

Button pressed. PHEV now on order. 

It's a lease. Interestingly, the lease cost of the equivalent conventional fuel model was significantly more expensive although the list price is lower. Presumably the expectation is that in four years (length of my lease) the expectation is that EV/PHEV residuals will be stronger than conventional fuel


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## icowden (28 Sep 2021)

nickyboy said:


> It's a lease. Interestingly, the lease cost of the equivalent conventional fuel model was significantly more expensive although the list price is lower.



That's good but it's still a PHEV, so still emitting gasses and burning fossil fuel. What we need is a competent government.
This is what happens in Norway:





So although the import price on the e-golf is 11,000 euros higher, by the time you have paid emissions taxes, weight tax and VAT, the EV is cheaper.
Guess which country is leading the way in converting to EVs?



> The Norwegian Parliament has decided on a national goal that all new cars sold by 2025 should be zero-emission (electric or hydrogen). By the end of 2020, there were more than 330.000 registered battery electric cars (BEVs) in Norway. Battery electric vehicles held a 54 % market share in 2020. *The speed of the transition is closely related to policy instruments and a wide range of incentives.*



It turns out that if you incentivise people to buy electric, and charge them extra to buy ICE / PHEV, they will buy electric!!


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## MrGrumpy (28 Sep 2021)

Sorry to pipe in again but what we really need is a lot less cars . Doesn’t matter what they are fuelled by , they are still clogging up the roads!


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## MrGrumpy (28 Sep 2021)

Sorry Tesla owners thought this quite funny in these strange times ;-)


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## nickyboy (28 Sep 2021)

icowden said:


> That's good but it's still a PHEV, so still emitting gasses and burning fossil fuel. What we need is a competent government.


It is. However, we estimate that approximately 80% of our current conventional fuel driving will be done wholly and exclusively using battery power

Of course Norway is incentivising people heavily to switch to EVs. This level of incentivisation isn't sustainable in the long run. It just makes personal EVs cheaper than they should be. So once the switch has been made, Norway will start to remove the incentives and will start to charge VAT etc on EVs. The interesting question is that, by then, will the importation prices of EVs have come down to conventionally fuelled levels or will they remain fundamentally more expensive to make? If they remain more expensive to make, putting the VAT back on after the switch makes EVs more expensive than the historical prices of conventionally fuelled vehicles going forward

"Great", I hear you say. "It'll reduce the number of cars on the road". That's true. But electorates have long memories


----------



## icowden (28 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Sorry to pipe in again but what we really need is a lot less cars . Doesn’t matter what they are fuelled by , they are still clogging up the roads!



That's the next step. Once Tesla have level 5 autonomous cars, that will fuel the rise of the robots! Many people will find it cheaper to summon a car when they need it (or schedule a car) than to own one. Why own something that does nothing 22-23 hours a day, if it is more expensive than paying for a car when you need it?

The reason this can't happen yet is that humans require paying to drive cars*. When cars can drive themselves then the price can be lowered drastically. Just the electricity cost and a profit margin.


*and we haven't got to level 5 yet despite Elon Musk's optimism


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## cougie uk (28 Sep 2021)

Times change. In fifty years time the idea that people clogged up their drives and roads with cars and spent hundreds each month buying them will be unthinkable. 

EVs first then autonomous EVs. 

Hopefully we will still have a public transport system and bikes unless someone invents the flying bike by then.


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## cougie uk (28 Sep 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> View attachment 611261
> 
> 
> Sorry Tesla owners thought this quite funny in these strange times ;-)



Noooo. You mean it would cost me £4 to fill up ??

Hard times indeed. 

Anyone any idea how expensive petrol is - after the 2 hour queue to get any that is ?


----------



## JhnBssll (28 Sep 2021)

I was quite excited to finally have my Tesla company car order confirmation come through last week - I put the order through in early June so it's taken a while  I've got a Model 3 Long Range dual motor on the way, in white with white interior and 19" sport wheels 😊 Of course I've already made it a project, and have some carbon fibre parts ready to fit as well as a quote incoming for lowering it  To be honest I was fairly surprised I'm allowed to modify it but i have had it confirmed in writing - as long as it's returned to standard before the end of the 4 year lease I can do what I want 😄 I've got a while longer to wait as it's not due to arrive in the country until November but I need that time to finish the drive off


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## gzoom (29 Sep 2021)

JhnBssll said:


> I was quite excited to finally have my Tesla company car order confirmation come through last week



Our current X has just turned 4 years old, whilst its not been fault free am looking forwards the next 4 years. Despite what you see floating around in the media on Tesla 'build quality' they age very well.


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## Tenkaykev (29 Sep 2021)

JhnBssll said:


> I was quite excited to finally have my Tesla company car order confirmation come through last week - I put the order through in early June so it's taken a while  I've got a Model 3 Long Range dual motor on the way, in white with white interior and 19" sport wheels 😊 Of course I've already made it a project, and have some carbon fibre parts ready to fit as well as a quote incoming for lowering it  To be honest I was fairly surprised I'm allowed to modify it but i have had it confirmed in writing - as long as it's returned to standard before the end of the 4 year lease I can do what I want 😄 I've got a while longer to wait as it's not due to arrive in the country until November but I need that time to finish the drive off


Although I’ve never owned a car, and Mrs Tenkaykev gave her car up a couple of years ago making us a no car family, I’m really interested in Electric vehicle technology. The Munro Live YouTube channel provides some insights into what’s actually “ under the hood “ of various vehicles, and the difference between Tesla starting their vehicle design from scratch, and the approach of the traditional ICE vehicle manufacturers who are used to doing things and designing vehicles a certain way.
Weight saving through integrating and simplifying, designing out components etc can really add to a vehicles range. From my time working I’m very familiar with the insides of Electric motors, and mechanical gearboxes, seeing them stripped down to component level is fascinating, and I’m extremely impressed with some of the technological advances.


----------



## mikeIow (30 Sep 2021)

gzoom said:


> Our current X has just turned 4 years old, whilst its not been fault free am looking forwards the next 4 years. Despite what you see floating around in the media on Tesla 'build quality' they age very well.
> 
> View attachment 611388


They do look cool...although I read the rear doors let one get rather damp if entering or exiting in the wet?
What are the faults you've had? Any preventing you driving or causing real grief, or just minor things?

Our Kona EV is now 2¼ years old, no problems (yet!) 
My XC60 has just this year had a sensor fail that cost £250 to replace. Not bad for a 7 year old vehicle!


----------



## gzoom (1 Oct 2021)

mikeIow said:


> They do look cool...although I read the rear doors let one get rather damp if entering or exiting in the wet?
> What are the faults you've had? Any preventing you driving or causing real grief, or just minor things?



No issues at all with the rear doors, in rain they essentially work like umbrellas whilst loading in passengers. I've actually been surprised how often we use all 6 seats in the car, and the fact the doors open to full in spaces where normal doors would be an absolutely nightmare for trying to get people into the 3rd row is just fantastic.






Most of the issues with the car has been minor stuff that should have been picked up at delivery. The one big failure was front control arms, that was an inherent design fault which was sorted new revised parts.

I normal get the 'itch' to change cars very quickly but 4.5 years into owing a X I have zero interest in any other cars. The only car I would replace it with is another X, the newer version does have about 70 miles more real world range and quicker 0-60 times......but its nearly £50k more expensive than ours with a total cost of change coming in at nearly £70k if we were to trade in ours, even my man maths cannot make those figures work!!!







Even if you had the cash spare, look at the delivery date, not till next end of NEXT year. So am more than happy to keep our car longterm. Off to Norway for a 2 week road trip next summer, have started planning already and it'll be a nice 40th birthday present to my self .


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## CXRAndy (1 Oct 2021)

I think I've found my next EV and could be willing to let my Model S go for this. 





Rivian R1T


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## mikeIow (1 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> No issues at all with the rear doors, in rain they essentially work like umbrellas whilst loading in passengers. I've actually been surprised how often we use all 6 seats in the car, and the fact the doors open to full in spaces where normal doors would be an absolutely nightmare for trying to get people into the 3rd row is just fantastic.
> 
> View attachment 611629
> 
> ...


Sounds good: I had read that the doors took enough time for people to get wet, sounds like you experience is not that 

Have to ask: what the heck is a front control arm?
Indicator/light stalk?

As with our Kona & other EVs, I do wonder what happens when the warranty runs out (8 years for Tesla?). They are basically computers that happen to drive: once the manufacturer decides to charge £££s more to support, or indeed stops support, where will we all be!


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## MrGrumpy (1 Oct 2021)

Front control arms are the on the front suspension . Strut attached to that which then attaches to drive shaft . Upper and lower arms are normally in use ! Of course being a Tesla it’s maybe some magic fairy dust made be Elon Musk


----------



## Nebulous (14 Oct 2021)

I'm coming late to this, and haven't read it all, but I've wanted to get an electric car for some time. 

We have a van, bought to carry bikes inside and also tow a caravan.

I retired earlier this year, discovered I wasn't ready to stop and took a part-time job. That is 25 miles from home and leaves my wife without a vehicle. I'm supposed to work two days a week, but have got sucked in to doing more, which tips the balance to getting a second vehicle. 

I saw some good deals on leasing, though stock was an issue, and got some quotes. Then I noticed supply was drying up and prices rising, possibly because of the fuel shortage. Quoted prices have gone up by £30-40 a month in the last couple of weeks. 

I dived in, found a company willing to honour my previous quote (valid for 28 days) and they sourced a car. Taking delivery of a leaf next week. 

It's all happened very quickly, I have no facility to charge at home, so will be subject to public charging, but I'm up for the challenge.


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## biggs682 (14 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> There are bugger all near my caravan in Prestatyn. Those you 'quoted' are miles away from each other, and Anglesey gets then as 'posh' people go there. Where I am in South Manchester, most supermarkets have chargers, and are only a mile or two apart.


Must admit we only saw a haven works van plugged in to what looked like a standard multi plug on the Prestatyn site a couple of weeks ago.

There were some charging points at Bodnant Gardens .

We have talked about ev ownership a few times but the range put's us off i would want a min of 360 miles so i can safely do most journeys without having to risk going hunting for a charge point oh and the price needs to drop like the titanic before we would go any further


----------



## icowden (14 Oct 2021)

biggs682 said:


> We have talked about ev ownership a few times but the range put's us off i would want a min of 360 miles so i can safely do most journeys without having to risk going hunting for a charge point oh and the price needs to drop like the titanic before we would go any further



Fair enough on the price, but how often do you actually drive 360 miles without stopping? That's a heck of a commute!


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## Mo1959 (14 Oct 2021)

They tested a few on The Gadget Show last night and none seemed to get the claimed range. It's improving all the time though.


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## icowden (14 Oct 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> They tested a few on The Gadget Show last night and none seemed to get the claimed range. It's improving all the time though.



And yet people make a big deal about that, but not about the fact that when you buy an ICE car you can never get the advertised MPG...

Plus ca change...


----------



## Mo1959 (14 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> And yet people make a big deal about that, but not about the fact that when you buy an ICE car you can never get the advertised MPG...
> 
> Plus ca change...


There's lots of new houses being built here just now. I'm curious to know if they might have charging points fitted.


----------



## cougie uk (14 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> I'm coming late to this, and haven't read it all, but I've wanted to get an electric car for some time.
> 
> We have a van, bought to carry bikes inside and also tow a caravan.
> 
> ...



We used a socket in the garage to charge ours for a few weeks with no issues. We did get a proper extension cord for it and made sure it wouldn't get wet and kept an eye on it and it was no issue. 
Enjoy the Leaf.


----------



## cougie uk (14 Oct 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> There's lots of new houses being built here just now. I'm curious to know if they might have charging points fitted.


I doubt it.


----------



## biggs682 (14 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> Fair enough on the price, but how often do you actually drive 360 miles without stopping? That's a heck of a commute!


About 3 times a year and then we normally only stop when we really need to .
My current commute is measured in yards not miles


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## stoatsngroats (14 Oct 2021)

I had an interesting day last week, stopping to fill up a small works van with diesel at £1.38/Ltd which works out at around £6.40/Gln. This van will do an average of 45 mpg.
Later, I spoke with a Tesla owner, who said he rarely charges from a low percent to 100%, but when he does (at home) it costs around £6.
His range from 100% with a mix of driving, was reliably 240 miles.
I know there’s a premium for purchasing EVs in the UK, and the Norway tax shown bi @icowden earlier would go some way to improving local air quality and overall co2 emissions which is a good thing to do.
Regarding costs for personal transport, private car ownership costs will increase for everyone over the next 5 to 10 years, in my opinion, and the single most important thing to do is to begin to reduce our own reliance on them.
I used public transport for my commute a couple of weeks ago, and would spend £50 each week to get to work and home again, and took an extra hour and 20 minutes overall, for a 16 miles each way commute.
My fuel cost is the same for 11 days use.
My best alternative is either to find a job more local to me ( not easy) or retire. I have cycled the 16 miles each way, but cannot do this everyday, as I’m weak and feeble minded, and get tired easily.
EVs are an improvement, but we must change our way of life to make sufficient difference.
I really love the Model X in this thread btw!


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## vickster (14 Oct 2021)

stoatsngroats said:


> I had an interesting day last week, stopping to fill up a small works van with diesel at £1.38/Ltd which works out at around £6.40/Gln. This van will do an average of 45 mpg.
> Later, I spoke with a Tesla owner, who said he rarely charges from a low percent to 100%, but when he does (at home) it costs around £6.
> His range from 100% with a mix of driving, was reliably 240 miles.
> I know there’s a premium for purchasing EVs in the UK, and the Norway tax shown bi @icowden earlier would go some way to improving local air quality and overall co2 emissions which is a good thing to do.
> ...


Get an e-bike to commute...rather cheaper than an e car (unless you have 80k burning a hole in your pocket  )
Or retire then you can spend all day cycling which will make you stronger


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## stoatsngroats (14 Oct 2021)

vickster said:


> Get an e-bike to commute...rather cheaper than an e car (unless you have 80k burning a hole in your pocket  )
> Or retire then you can spend all day cycling which will make you stronger


Yes, I have considered this, I was going to do CTW for this, but my company (a charity) declined to enter the higher value scheme.
I would have bought a Cairn e-gravel bike instead of my Genesis at the time, and would have been much better equipped to do the 16 mile each way commute.
My overall issues with health are age related, and time on the bike has decreased a lot over the last 10 years, so cycle to/from work is difficult without some assistance, and I’ll look again at my options.
I have 10 years work life left (less if I can make my pension work better!) and I’m really wanting to reduce my personal car use when I can.
I did a 40+ ride just last weekend, so I can do the distance, just not easily around my work schedule.
But thanks @vickster for the ideas… it’s always good to have others thoughts ! 👍


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## vickster (14 Oct 2021)

If you can afford to buy an E car (£30k+) out of your own pocket, surely you can do so for an e-bike without C2W (£3k)? Or find an e-bike seller than will do part C2W, part cash (Evans used to I think?)
Up to you obviously


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## stoatsngroats (14 Oct 2021)

@vickster , oh, I didn’t mean to imply that I could afford an ev, but have been looking at possibilities and alternatives 😀


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## figbat (14 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> We used a socket in the garage to charge ours for a few weeks with no issues. We did get a proper extension cord for it and made sure it wouldn't get wet and kept an eye on it and it was no issue.
> Enjoy the Leaf.


That’s what I’m doing now - a weather-proof extension lead from the garage to use the “granny charger”, which is fully outdoors capable. The extension cable is 2.5mm^2 core - I made absolutely sure of this before using it!


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## cougie uk (14 Oct 2021)

vickster said:


> If you can afford to buy an E car (£30k+) out of your own pocket, surely you can do so for an e-bike without C2W (£3k)? Or find an e-bike seller than will do part C2W, part cash (Evans used to I think?)
> Up to you obviously


My EV was almost half this cost. Do we assume that all bikes are 12k superbikes too ?


----------



## CXRAndy (14 Oct 2021)

biggs682 said:


> About 3 times a year and then we normally only stop when we really need to .
> My current commute is measured in yards not miles



An EV would be perfect for 99% of the year. We use a Nissan Leaf for local-ish journeys. It does 100+ miles every day of the working week. We use our tesla for weekends or longer journeys. I don't drive more than 150 miles before wanting a break- that's roughly 3 hours of driving in the UK on major roads. There are plenty of chargers available- look at Zap Map. 

Never had range issues. You just plan

We've driven 400 mile trips, camped and was still able to use a 3 pin plug to fully charge our car.

It's just different


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## MrGrumpy (14 Oct 2021)

Interesting news item on yesterdays BBC news. About Norways super reliance on oil . Massive tax incentives for EV vehicles but oil is the massive employer in the country. A conundrum that needs solved !


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## nickyboy (16 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Interesting news item on yesterdays BBC news. About Norways super reliance on oil . Massive tax incentives for EV vehicles but oil is the massive employer in the country. A conundrum that needs solved !


They export their oil to countries that haven't made the transition to EVs and use this money to subsidise their own transition


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## MrGrumpy (16 Oct 2021)

_They export their oil to countries that haven't made the transition to EVs and use this money to subsidise their own transition_

Colombian drug lords anyone.


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## gzoom (20 Oct 2021)

Norway really does have it worked out, am now just starting to look into AirB&B accommodation for road trip next summer there in the EV. 

The views (and cost) of some places are frankly unbelievable, this place comes out at just over £100/person per night. Other places with a slightly worse view are half the price. £100/night in the UK currently gets you a Premier Inn at best usually with a few of the car park .


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## Tenkaykev (20 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Interesting news item on yesterdays BBC news. About Norways super reliance on oil . Massive tax incentives for EV vehicles but oil is the massive employer in the country. A conundrum that needs solved !


There’s a lot of focus on oil as a source of Petrol/ Diesel for vehicular use, often forgetting it’s usefulness as a base for other products.


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## mistyoptic (20 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> The views (and cost) of some places are frankly unbelievable, this place comes out at just over* £100/person* per night. Other places with a slightly worse view are half the price.* £100/night* in the UK currently gets you a Premier Inn at best usually with a few of the car park .
> 
> View attachment 614356


I appreciate your point (and the view). Not like for like comparison though


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> There’s a lot of focus on oil as a source of Petrol/ Diesel for vehicular use, often forgetting it’s usefulness as a base for other products.


Indeed there is , oil is interwoven in nearly all things we don’t even think much about .


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

Was out walking the dog last night and bumped into a couple of fellow dog walkers , we got into the subject of EVs amongst other things. One of them mentioned Tesla has a warehouse of used batteries it hasn’t quite worked out what to do with and a BMW was mentioned owned by someone they knew that was going to cost a small fortune to repair as the battery had packed in, no warranty on it as only guaranteed for 12months?? Can only assume a used car of a certain age ?
Granted probably an isolated case but it does underline the whole issue of used EVs? Fossil fuel engines can be repaired fairly easily , even a chewed 3.0l V6 LR diesel  at a hell of lot less than a battery .


----------



## mistyoptic (20 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Was out walking the dog last night and bumped into a couple of fellow dog walkers , we got into the subject of EVs amongst other things. One of them mentioned Tesla has a warehouse of used batteries it hasn’t quite worked out what to do with and a BMW was mentioned owned by someone they knew that was going to cost a small fortune to repair as the battery had packed in, no warranty on it as only guaranteed for 12months?? Can only assume a used car of a certain age ?
> Granted probably an isolated case but it does underline the whole issue of used EVs? Fossil fuel engines can be repaired fairly easily , even a chewed 3.0l V6 LR diesel  at a hell of lot less than a battery .


Which prompted me to look for information on recycling the Lithium cells. This article is interesting but may now be somewhat dated. Describes some of the challenges in the recycling process.

https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28


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## JhnBssll (20 Oct 2021)

The original CTO of Tesla quit to launch a start-up concentrating on lithium battery recycling. He saw the gap in the market and appears to be making the most of it, winning lucrative contracts with several major brands. The company is called Redwood Materials if anyone is interested in having a Google


----------



## cougie uk (20 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Was out walking the dog last night and bumped into a couple of fellow dog walkers , we got into the subject of EVs amongst other things. One of them mentioned Tesla has a warehouse of used batteries it hasn’t quite worked out what to do with and a BMW was mentioned owned by someone they knew that was going to cost a small fortune to repair as the battery had packed in, no warranty on it as only guaranteed for 12months?? Can only assume a used car of a certain age ?
> Granted probably an isolated case but it does underline the whole issue of used EVs? Fossil fuel engines can be repaired fairly easily , even a chewed 3.0l V6 LR diesel  at a hell of lot less than a battery .


Well this sounds like rubbish. BMW have a 6 year warranty on batteries. 

EV batteries are just a lot of small cells linked together. There are loads of uses for them. Find any duds and replace and you have a reconditioned battery. Or use the battery as storage for home or industrial use. 

Break it down to form a battery for a classic car EV conversion. 

I don't think this bloke knows what he's talking about.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Well this sounds like rubbish. BMW have a 6 year warranty on batteries.



BMW have been making EVs for a while now no ? 6yr ago is only the end of 2015 ? The car I was told cost £18k so I assume second hand so yes it’s credible that the battery could have packed in ? I’d say it very credible but maybe an isolated case but a horrible one to have !!


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

JhnBssll said:


> The original CTO of Tesla quit to launch a start-up concentrating on lithium battery recycling. He saw the gap in the market and appears to be making the most of it, winning lucrative contracts with several major brands. The company is called Redwood Materials if anyone is interested in having a Google


I have and I’m still no further informed in what they actually do ? Fancy website and bollocks about periodic tables  of which I’m familiar with but what are they actually doing with the materials are they doing anything ??


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

mistyoptic said:


> Which prompted me to look for information on recycling the Lithium cells. This article is interesting but may now be somewhat dated. Describes some of the challenges in the recycling process.
> 
> https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28


That just confirms a lot of the thoughts currently being discussed is what to do with all this waste ???


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## cougie uk (20 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> BMW have been making EVs for a while now no ? 6yr ago is only the end of 2015 ? The car I was told cost £18k so I assume second hand so yes it’s credible that the battery could have packed in ? I’d say it very credible but maybe an isolated case but a horrible one to have !!


I remember our three year old Vectra broke. Crankshaft or something. At least two grand to fix. Vauxhall weren't interested. Last Vauxhall we ever bought and I can't imagine buying another ICE car.


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## JhnBssll (20 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I have and I’m still no further informed in what they actually do ? Fancy website and bollocks about periodic tables  of which I’m familiar with but what are they actually doing with the materials are they doing anything ??



I read a Forbes article which states he won't share details of their proprietary methods but they currently profitably recycle 20,000 tons of batteries per year and that the end result of their process is seperated raw materials for resale. They're gaining investment to scale up. What it doesn't mention is the energy usage of their proprietary method and whether that undermines the benefit of the EV 

Anyway, my EV is due by end November so that's pretty exciting 

Regarding cost of repairs, my 5yr old diesel cost me nearly £5k to fix earlier this year and then the DPF failed - I sold it on at a loss knowing it needed another £2k spending on it. A new Tesla battery pack costs £12k now and prices are falling - it won't be long until repair costs are fairly equivalent.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

JhnBssll said:


> I read a Forbes article which states he won't share details of their proprietary methods but they currently profitably recycle 20,000 tons of batteries per year and that the end result of their process is seperated raw materials for resale. They're gaining investment to scale up. What it doesn't mention is the energy usage of their proprietary method and whether that undermines the benefit of the EV
> 
> Anyway, my EV is due by end November so that's pretty exciting
> 
> Regarding cost of repairs, my 5yr old diesel cost me nearly £5k to fix earlier this year and then the DPF failed - I sold it on at a loss knowing it needed another £2k spending on it. A new Tesla battery pack costs £12k now and prices are falling - it won't be long until repair costs are fairly equivalent.


I’m sure costs will come down , which may come in time for me !


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I remember our three year old Vectra broke. Crankshaft or something. At least two grand to fix. Vauxhall weren't interested. Last Vauxhall we ever bought and I can't imagine buying another ICE car.


Yes the current SDV6 3.0 L fitted to the RRS and my current Discovery can go ping as well on the crankshaft. It’s a lot more than £2k to fix !! However it might still be cheaper than a new battery for a Tesla


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## Tenkaykev (20 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Was out walking the dog last night and bumped into a couple of fellow dog walkers , we got into the subject of EVs amongst other things. One of them mentioned Tesla has a warehouse of used batteries it hasn’t quite worked out what to do with and a BMW was mentioned owned by someone they knew that was going to cost a small fortune to repair as the battery had packed in, no warranty on it as only guaranteed for 12months?? Can only assume a used car of a certain age ?
> Granted probably an isolated case but it does underline the whole issue of used EVs? Fossil fuel engines can be repaired fairly easily , even a chewed 3.0l V6 LR diesel  at a hell of lot less than a battery .


There’s electric cars and there are hybrid electric cars. Some hybrids are a “ box ticking “ exercise with a pitifully small battery and are more of a place holder while the traditional manufacturers learn to adapt. A company such as Tesla with no entrenched car manufacturing methodology can start with a clean sheet and doesn’t have the potential “ but we’ve always done it that way “ mindset.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Oct 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> There’s electric cars and there are hybrid electric cars. Some hybrids are a “ box ticking “ exercise with a pitifully small battery and are more of a place holder while the traditional manufacturers learn to adapt. A company such as Tesla with no entrenched car manufacturing methodology can start with a clean sheet and doesn’t have the potential “ but we’ve always done it that way “ mindset.


I’m aware been discussed already , however the example I mention is real. I’m very sceptical of the whole thing to be honest . Sure it will all iron out as they say . Fossil fuel cars are here for a long time yet !


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## Nebulous (22 Oct 2021)

Nissan Leaf arrived at 6:40 yesterday, before I went to work. Unfortunately I was working a long day and didn't get to try it until today. 77 miles took the battery from 84% to 24%. It was a cold day, 7 degrees, and I probably fiddled too much with electrical equipment such as heated seats. It was quite scary to see the gauge go down. 

Very nice to drive though, lots of aids, such as all round cameras.


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## cougie uk (22 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> Nissan Leaf arrived at 6:40 yesterday, before I went to work. Unfortunately I was working a long day and didn't get to try it until today. 77 miles took the battery from 84% to 24%. It was a cold day, 7 degrees, and I probably fiddled too much with electrical equipment such as heated seats. It was quite scary to see the gauge go down.
> 
> Very nice to drive though, lots of aids, such as all round cameras.


Took me a year to find out I had a heated steering wheel...


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## Nebulous (22 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Took me a year to find out I had a heated steering wheel...



I haven't got round to reading the manual yet - how do you switch it on?


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## neil_merseyside (22 Oct 2021)

I wouldn't be using any heating elements if the range drops 60% drop in just 77miles. 
That's is just so poor!


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## figbat (22 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I wouldn't be using any heating elements if the range drops 60% drop in just 77miles.
> That's is just so poor!


The advice I was given was that using the heated seat was less damaging to range than using the climate control.


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## cougie uk (22 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> I haven't got round to reading the manual yet - how do you switch it on?


I've not read the manual either but there's a button by your right knee. 
Ironically the steering wheel blocks me from seeing it.


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## cougie uk (22 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I wouldn't be using any heating elements if the range drops 60% drop in just 77miles.
> That's is just so poor!


Why Neill - where are you going ? 

Nobody bats an eyelid when ICE cars don't return the MPG they're quoted at. 

I reckon I could get quite close to the leaf range if driven carefully. 

We've had ours for over a year and only charged away from home about 4 times. Why buy a car for that one long trip you make when the remaining 99.9% of journeys are well within range ?


----------



## Tenkaykev (22 Oct 2021)

Interesting and predictable that Tesla are transitioning to LiFePo battery chemistry. Although there’s a drop in initial range in the early years, the extended battery life, safer chemistry and ability to cope with harsher charge / discharge cycles will make this the dominant chemistry for the vast majority of vehicles.


----------



## neil_merseyside (22 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Why Neill - where are you going ?
> 
> Nobody bats an eyelid when ICE cars don't return the MPG they're quoted at.
> 
> ...



I regularly do 150 mile journeys with no provision to off street charge before I return.
I could do 77mpg on a gallon if I slip-streamed wagons like the electric cars I see (but that is way too dangerous).
Maybe you live close to everything, have you thought of cycling instead? I could move nearer one destination but then I'd be further from another regular destination so then I'd need to hope to charge on route. Doesn't work for me, not that I could afford to scrap a good car and buy a hugely (and having to be manufactured) expensive beast. 
I cycle lots, I drive relatively few journeys - just that those few are long, I have a caravan but no electric car could get that more than one county away, should I scrap that even though that also is serviceable?


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> Interesting and predictable that Tesla are transitioning to LiFePo battery chemistry. Although there’s a drop in initial range in the early years, the extended battery life, safer chemistry and ability to cope with harsher charge / discharge cycles will make this the dominant chemistry for the vast majority of vehicles.


I expect more developments hence I would not rush in right now .


----------



## icowden (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I regularly do 150 mile journeys with no provision to off street charge before I return.



Leaf 2 plus can do more than that range. So can Tesla 3, VW ID.3 or ID.4, in fact almost all current BEVs have a range well over 150 miles.


----------



## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I expect more developments hence I would not rush in right now .



You do realise LiFePo batteries aren't BETTER!! 

They have less energy density, need more discharge heat management. The reason Tesla is using them more is because they are CHEAPER!! (So higher profit margins for Tesla).

Can you guess the battery technology Tesla is using in their most powerful, £130k+ Plaid cars?? May be latest cells in 4680 format like those found in the 3/Y? Maybe LiFePo chemistry?? Nope but Cells using the same 18650 format and chemistry as the original Model S made in 2011.

So if you want heavier, worse performing batteries interms of thermal discharge performance (but importantly also cheaper) you will be happy with a Model 3/Y using LiFePo cells, but if you want the latest and best Model S/X, for £130k+ Tesla are still using the same battery technology from 2011 .


----------



## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> Leaf 2 plus can do more than that range. So can Tesla 3, VW ID.3 or ID.4, in fact almost all current BEVs have a range well over 150 miles.


 
Infact its hard to think of a brand new EV that does less than 150 miles??


----------



## Bazzer (23 Oct 2021)

figbat said:


> The advice I was given was that using the heated seat was less damaging to range than using the climate control.


That is the case with my hybrid, but the impact on the range on a full electric car should be less, given the greater number of batteries. - Unless of course you keep it on all of the time.


----------



## Nebulous (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I regularly do 150 mile journeys with no provision to off street charge before I return.
> I could do 77mpg on a gallon if I slip-streamed wagons like the electric cars I see (but that is way too dangerous).
> Maybe you live close to everything, have you thought of cycling instead? I could move nearer one destination but then I'd be further from another regular destination so then I'd need to hope to charge on route. Doesn't work for me, not that I could afford to scrap a good car and buy a hugely (and having to be manufactured) expensive beast.
> I cycle lots, I drive relatively few journeys - just that those few are long, I have a caravan but no electric car could get that more than one county away, should I scrap that even though that also is serviceable?



I also tow a caravan with a van to carry bikes. We've flipped between one and two cars repeatedly over the years. 

My life has changed dramatically and I'm doing 12 hour shifts 25 miles away. That leaves my wife without a vehicle. My previous job was 2 miles from my old house and I cycled every day. We needed another vehicle and I wanted to try electric, so got a leaf. I'm confident that my new leaf will do my commute twice on a single charge. 

It has a place in our lives, but certainly isn't a do-it-all vehicle. I reckon the battery usage was a worst case scenario. It was a cold day, I was playing with all the gadgetry and I was showing my father how fast it can accelerate. In normal usage I expect to modify my driving to make the most of battery life.


----------



## cougie uk (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I regularly do 150 mile journeys with no provision to off street charge before I return.
> I could do 77mpg on a gallon if I slip-streamed wagons like the electric cars I see (but that is way too dangerous).
> Maybe you live close to everything, have you thought of cycling instead? I could move nearer one destination but then I'd be further from another regular destination so then I'd need to hope to charge on route. Doesn't work for me, not that I could afford to scrap a good car and buy a hugely (and having to be manufactured) expensive beast.
> I cycle lots, I drive relatively few journeys - just that those few are long, I have a caravan but no electric car could get that more than one county away, should I scrap that even though that also is serviceable?



My wife uses the leaf for work. She probably does about 50-60 miles a day. The EV is perfect for her. Well within range but enough miles to notice the huge savings over Petrol. 

If you regularly do 150 mile trips you'd just need a bigger battery on the EV. 

And I never understood caravans. Isn't it better for the environment to use statics rather than tow things there and back again ?


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## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> Infact its hard to think of a brand new EV that does less than 150 miles??


But how do I get back?


----------



## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> My wife uses the leaf for work. She probably does about 50-60 miles a day. The EV is perfect for her. Well within range but enough miles to notice the huge savings over Petrol.
> 
> If you regularly do 150 mile trips you'd just need a bigger battery on the EV.
> 
> And I never understood caravans. Isn't it better for the environment to use statics rather than tow things there and back again ?



You could of course live nearer wife's work and she walks or cycles...
Yes but I need 350 for regular return trips, (or magic charging overnight in the middle of a residential street) or just 5 minutes in a fuel station just like refuelling is now and then it's nearly working as a plan, so that not happening.
So go on name a second-hand electric car that's £15K like my current one cost, and can that can do that 350 miles?
Better in the same way as if you only go to same self catered apartment every holiday.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> And I never understood caravans. Isn't it better for the environment to use statics rather than tow things there and back again ?



better than flying anywhere surely ?


----------



## cougie uk (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> You could of course live nearer wife's work and she walks or cycles...
> Yes but I need 350 for regular return trips, (or magic charging overnight in the middle of a residential street) or just 5 minutes in a fuel station just like refuelling is now and then it's nearly working as a plan, so that not happening.
> So go on name a second-hand electric car that's £15K like my current one cost, and can that can do that 350 miles?
> Better in the same way as if you only go to same self catered apartment every holiday.



My wife goes to many places of work in one day. Sadly a car is the only easy way to do this. I've not needed a car for work for over 30 years. 

Where are you going that's got no charging stations in 350 miles ?


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

Can nobody see the issue at all in the future if we are all driving EVs ??? We are going to need more Power Stations not friggin wind mills at this rate.


----------



## stoatsngroats (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can nobody see the issue at all in the future if we are all driving EVs ??? We are going to need more Power Stations not friggin wind mills at this rate.



there are interesting things afoot in development which could assist the change towards EVs….UK-Morocco Electricity model


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

Just build some Nuclear Power stations  .


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## Tenkaykev (23 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> You do realise LiFePo batteries aren't BETTER!!
> 
> They have less energy density, need more discharge heat management. The reason Tesla is using them more is because they are CHEAPER!! (So higher profit margins for Tesla).
> 
> ...


Not as straightforward as it first appears, although LiFePo initially has less range its vastly superior lifetime charge holding capacity and inherently better safety soon start to show its advantages.
Here's a link to a comparison, it gets a bit " Sciencey " in places, but it's an interesting and informative analysis of the two chemistries.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdZL8RF3thI


----------



## icowden (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> So go on name a second-hand electric car that's £15K like my current one cost, and can that can do that 350 miles?
> Better in the same way as if you only go to same self catered apartment every holiday.



That's the main problem at the moment. BEVs are expensive. Until the moron Johnson is out of the way, or wakes up and starts subsidising electric / penalising ICE, it will remain expensive. I was excited for the Tesla Model Y but it looks like the UK price is going to be £57,000 😭


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## cougie uk (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can nobody see the issue at all in the future if we are all driving EVs ??? We are going to need more Power Stations not friggin wind mills at this rate.


Not an issue according to the National Grid. 

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted


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## cougie uk (23 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> That's the main problem at the moment. BEVs are expensive. Until the moron Johnson is out of the way, or wakes up and starts subsidising electric / penalising ICE, it will remain expensive. I was excited for the Tesla Model Y but it looks like the UK price is going to be £57,000 😭


It's a 7 seater though isn't it ?

You can pick up 2 year old EVs for under 20k. Not with 350 mile range or 7 seats but second hand prices will make EVs more affordable.


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Not an issue according to the National Grid.
> 
> https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/5-myths-about-electric-vehicles-busted


Add in the Heat Pumps that we will all have to run ?! We are going to be relying on leccy for everything !


----------



## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> My wife goes to many places of work in one day. Sadly a car is the only easy way to do this. I've not needed a car for work for over 30 years.
> 
> Where are you going that's got no charging stations in 350 miles ?


She could change jobs, a big probably costly change, but you seem to expect everyone else to make changes...

I want to go up to 170 miles to several destinations, I can't charge at the destination(s) so ~350 round trip. I really don't want to spend more time travelling to find a vacant/working/compatible charger to sit round for half an hour [1]as I have motorways to do that on. I can't scrap a good car, then commission another that uses more resources - and some of the resources being of questionably provenance.

[1] My current vehicle can do 800 miles between the 10 minutes it takes to fill it up, how long in total does it take to charge your BEV for 800 mile use?


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

Used cars will be around for along time yet. Remember it’s just new cars that will be no longer supplied. The thing with EVs is the need to pre plan journeys. That’s the theme running along here !


----------



## cougie uk (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> She could change jobs, a big probably costly change, but you seem to expect everyone else to make changes...
> 
> I want to go up to 170 miles to several destinations, I can't charge at the destination(s) so ~350 round trip. I really don't want to spend more time travelling to find a vacant/working/compatible charger to sit round for half an hour [1]as I have motorways to do that on. I can't scrap a good car, then commission another that uses more resources - and some of the resources being of questionably provenance.
> 
> [1] My current vehicle can do 800 miles between the 10 minutes it takes to fill it up, how long in total does it take to charge your BEV for 800 mile use?



Hang on. You want me to scrap my EV ?

Our car charges overnight on the drive. We don't need to bother making trips to the petrol station and pumping petrol in the cold. 

And it's not me wanting you to make changes. It's your Government. Go take this up with Johnson and co. I'm just pointing out that EVs will work for most people.


----------



## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> Not as straightforward as it first appears, although LiFePo initially has less range its vastly superior lifetime charge holding capacity and inherently better safety soon start to show its advantages.
> Here's a link to a comparison, it gets a bit " Sciencey " in places, but it's an interesting and informative analysis of the two chemistries.
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdZL8RF3thI




Tesla however are moving to LiFePo for profit, and it looks like Model 3/Y pricing is going up again!!

https://electrek.co/2021/10/22/tesla-hikes-model-3-model-y-prices-again-deliveries-slip/


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## Tenkaykev (23 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> Tesla however are moving to LiFePo for profit, and it looks like Model 3/Y pricing is going up again!!
> 
> https://electrek.co/2021/10/22/tesla-hikes-model-3-model-y-prices-again-deliveries-slip/


A win for everyone then, Tesla make more profit, the customers get safer and longer lasting batteries.


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## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

Tenkaykev said:


> A win for everyone then, Tesla make more profit, the customers get safer and longer lasting batteries.



Higher price and worse technology spun to make it sound like a win for the consumer?....you should become a politician .


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## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2021)

We've got a 40kW Leaf. Summer range is 150 miles, winter 100 miles comfortably. It's all depends how you drive the car, my wife drives fast and can easily return with less than 50 miles left from a 70 mile journey. Eg she burns 100 mile range from 70 mile journey 

I can on the other hand can match range to distance travelled. 

Our leaf is used for school run and local shopping. We are both work from home so we just plug it back in an top up during the day for any driving in the afternoon. We have some 70k miles from 2018 model


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## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Used cars will be around for along time yet. Remember it’s just new cars that will be no longer supplied. The thing with EVs is the need to pre plan journeys. That’s the theme running along here !


Only for cross country trips. The actual process is, Open Google maps, select destination. Share route with car. Car works out any stops and for how long, job done.

Time 30 seconds


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## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> I could do 77mpg on a gallon if I slip-streamed wagons like the electric cars I see (but that is way too dangerous



You won't see my wife doing that, infact, you wont see her for the blurred flash as she passes you


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## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> But how do I get back?


Tell me start point and destination I'll look at the options. Driving 150 miles is roughly 3 hours of driving time. A break is required for safety reason alone. 

If you are stopping at your destination for a period of hours, then plugging into a wall socket will still give you 6-8miles per hour charge.


----------



## Nebulous (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just build some Nuclear Power stations  .



That's the selfish option. Nuclear is insanely expensive, I don't think anyone has ever made it work without government subsidies. 

Then you get 30-40 years of electricity and leave your descendants with a 1000 year clean up bill.


----------



## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Tell me start point and destination I'll look at the options. Driving 150 miles is roughly 3 hours of driving time. A break is required for safety reason alone.
> 
> If you are stopping at your destination for a period of hours, then plugging into a wall socket will still give you 6-8miles per hour charge.



I can't charge at the destination as it's on street and nowhere near a socket. Nor do I want to waste more time sitting for 30minutes whatever while it recharges, assuming a charger is available and of the correct type. 

Driving 3 hrs without a break is fine[1], my car would alert me if I was losing concentration in any case[2] [3]

[1] Bladder capacity/alertness is the limit I use, 3hrs is about right for my dog, my wife is fine for a good bit longer bladder wise (and sleeps more than the dog so always fresh to go), me I'm undoubtedly probably getting to the age where my bladder might limit me, my concentration is still fine [2]. BITD I drove all day with only a short fuel break of maybe 20mins, that's human or vehicle fuel, usually doing both in any case.
[2] Those little ear dangly monitors work well for most people, I did check my first one wasn't broken, my car nags my wife to take a break now just like the ear dangly did 😄.
[3] Do tell the DSA that 3 hours is too much, especially for LGV's as they are driving huge kinetic energy weapons, but you'd think they'd follow stats on concentration though.


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## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> [3] Do tell the DSA that 3 hours is too much, especially for LGV's as they are driving huge kinetic energy weapons, but you'd think they'd follow stats on concentration though



The advice for professional truckers is

_45 minutes break after 4.5 hours driving

After a period of no more than 4.5 hours of driving you must immediately take a break of at least 45 minutes unless you are taking a rest period instead. The driving period can be continuous, or made up of shorter periods totalling 4 hours 30 minutes.

A break can be split into two periods (these are known as split breaks) the first break period being a minimum of 15 minutes and the following break a minimum of 30 minutes. These breaks must be completed after 4.5 hours driving.

Breaks of less than 15 minutes would not qualify as breaks, however they wouldn’t be classed as driving time either. The EU driver’s rules and regulations state that only split breaks that show the secondary period being 30 minutes or over will be allowed._


There are further requirements for trucker drivers to limit overall hours per day, week and bi weekly. So it seems even conditioned long haul drivers are not allowed to go beyond 4.5 hours. 

Yet I see poor driving standards from truckers all the time-so 4.5 hours seems excessive with poor levels of attention/concentration 

Personally 2.5 hours is plenty for me.


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## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> The advice for professional truckers is
> 
> _45 minutes break after 4.5 hours driving
> 
> ...



I knew all of that, it being part of the spiel for a licence I hold. Perhaps self selection has a role? So me and most other of us knuckle draggers (I think we're called?) are better than most motorists (being tested x2-3 more) I concede a driver (not a car operator/motorist) also knows their limits, but most motorists have no clue.
An ordinary motorist (licence holder, but no skill) is the most dangerous beast as they have a lot of kinetic energy, bad bike riders are equally risky but generally only to themselves and vehicle paintwork. 
Don't get me started on the IAM crew (been there, never again) who are just selfish...


----------



## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> [1] My current vehicle can do 800 miles between the 10 minutes it takes to fill it up, how long in total does it take to charge your BEV for 800 mile use?



There are always a few people who seem to have a genuine need to drive for hours non stop all the time, and you might be one of them. Sadly no EVs is going to fit you demands for a while, even the brand new £140k Mercedes EQS will 'only' do a realistic 350-400 miles with its massive 120kWh battery.

But most families don't use the car like the way you are suggesting. We've do 12k per year in our EV, take it on holiday/abroad and a range of 200 miles is more than enough.

Ofcourse the more miles you do the easier it is to justify an EV. Petrol seems to be approaching over £1.40/l and diesel £1.50/l. As much as electricity costs go up fuelling an EV remains cheap, and the more miles you do the better it is.

The biggest issues with EVs at present remains cost. Its sad to see Tesla constantly increasing prices, as other brands will see no doubt follow.


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> That's the selfish option. Nuclear is insanely expensive, I don't think anyone has ever made it work without government subsidies.
> 
> Then you get 30-40 years of electricity and leave your descendants with a 1000 year clean up bill.


The way things are going if gas is also getting the heave , leccy is going to be the only thing going !


----------



## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> The biggest issues with EVs at present remains cost. Its sad to see Tesla constantly increasing prices, as other brands will see no doubt follow.


It’s also the second hand market as well on EVs . Not everyone buys brand new cars unless on a PCP which is where most folk buy them. The battery life span is massive issue and if buying second hand well who knows how long you will get ? Anyone going to buy a 10yr old Tesla for example ?


----------



## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> There are always a few people who seem to have a genuine need to drive for hours non stop all the time, and you might be one of them. Sadly no EVs is going to fit you demands for a while, even the brand new £140k Mercedes EQS will 'only' do a realistic 350-400 miles with its massive 120kWh battery.
> 
> But most families don't use the car like the way you are suggesting. We've do 12k per year in our EV, take it on holiday/abroad and a range of 200 miles is more than enough.
> 
> ...


I think most people use cars as suits, short journey people can EV if they can afford it. Longer journey people use diesel - it was the answer according to the government let's not forget!
I do 12K a year, mostly the regular 350 mile round trips (they'll end when family eventually die off) and holidays, not much other use as we can walk to shops.
EV fuelling is cheap now, indeed it may stay that way but the fossil fuel taxes will be replaced somehow probably by road pricing, so fill your boots while you can.


----------



## neil_merseyside (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> The way things are going if gas is also getting the heave , leccy is going to be the only thing going !


And how is the lecy generated on a windless night?


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> And how is the lecy generated on a windless night?


Exactly !!


----------



## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyone going to buy a 10yr old Tesla for example ?



Nearly 10 year old Model Ss go for $30k in the US, that's about 35-40% of the new price so someone is buying them.

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2012/

The cheapest Model S in the UK is just under £30k, and are 7 years old now. That's roughly 40% price of the price when new, so again someone is buying them.

Our Model X is 4.5 years old, and currently holding 70% of invoice price we paid.

Even used price is biggest issue with EVs.


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## gzoom (23 Oct 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> EV fuelling is cheap now, indeed it may stay that way but the fossil fuel taxes will be replaced somehow probably by road pricing, so fill your boots while you can.



I have been since 2015, and will continue to do so as long as possible.


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## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2021)

Car journeys across the western world 

95% are less than 35 miles per day

50% only do 2 miles a day. 

There is a very small percentage of trips over a 100 miles a day. 

EVs are perfect for the majority


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## MrGrumpy (23 Oct 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Car journeys across the western world
> 
> 95% are less than 35 miles per day
> 
> ...


If you tow a caravan you will need to look elsewhere for now !? It’s a large industry and the last year has seen it grow bigger ! EVs are not the holy grail !


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## midlife (23 Oct 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Car journeys across the western world
> 
> 95% are less than 35 miles per day
> 
> ...



Yep, Don't disagree with that, but the majority can't afford an EV


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## gzoom (24 Oct 2021)

midlife said:


> Yep, Don't disagree with that, but the majority can't afford an EV



And if people keep on insisting they NEED a car that can do 350 miles non stop whilst towing a caravan EVs will never get cheaper.

Part of the reason why EV prices keeps on going up is because there is massive miss match between the perceived versus actual need for range!!

Our EV has effectively a 66kWh usable battery, its more than big enough for our needs, yet even a much smaller EV these days are coming in with 75kWh+ battery packs and the public are still demanding more range/bigger batteries......Hence why the 'cheapest' Tesla Model Y is within £10k of the cost of our Model X!!!


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## gzoom (24 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> EVs are not the holy grail !



Nope, but they are the way the industry is going. So moan as much as you like I suspect £1.50/l for diesel will seem cheap in future. 

There are two ways governments can 'force' people out of combustion cars. Norway did it with a mixture of heavy taxation on petroleum and incentives on EVs.......Sadly we all know which tool our government will use .


----------



## MrGrumpy (24 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> And if people keep on insisting they NEED a car that can do 350 miles non stop whilst towing a caravan EVs will never get cheaper.
> 
> Part of the reason why EV prices keeps on going up is because there is massive miss match between the perceived versus actual need for range!!



This is a real life scenario though, albeit personally I’d take a break when towing. However …….. I’ve not seen any places where you can stop of with your caravan and charge your car without parking up the caravan some where else . You may not understand the issue with this but it’s a problem that’s needs solved. We are miles away from adopting EVs as main mode, you can provide all the tax incentives you like to buy one but there is a lack of available and plentiful charging points!


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## CXRAndy (24 Oct 2021)

What some are missing, individual vehicle transport is changing and will continue to change. EVs are set to be the dominant transport for the immediate future. 

I expect autonomy to be next, where eventually very little will actual own a car but 'call on demand' will be normal. 

The average life of a car is, its sits 99% life on the drive. Actually the most wasteful investment we probably make.


----------



## Nebulous (24 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> This is a real life scenario though, albeit personally I’d take a break when towing. However …….. I’ve not seen any places where you can stop of with your caravan and charge your car without parking up the caravan some where else . You may not understand the issue with this but it’s a problem that’s needs solved. We are miles away from adopting EVs as main mode, you can provide all the tax incentives you like to buy one but there is a lack of available and plentiful charging points!



I've taken a part-time job 25 miles away. Travelling 2-3 days a week. My parents are 18 miles away in the opposite direction. I cycle to their house occasionally, but also drive regularly as I take them out for lunch / coffee. They have both given up driving. The nearest Lidl is 20 miles away and we go there maybe twice a month for shopping. Around our small town we walk / cycle. 

In contrast my caravan has been out 5 times this year. Most recent trip was 50 miles away for 5 nights. Furthest away was 140 miles. 

Caravan club has begun making towcar awards to EVs. It is almost at the point where my caravanning would be possible with an EV. It would if I did my journey in shorter stages - an interim site 70 or 80 miles away. As I'm semi-retired there is no reason why I wouldn't. Caravanning is popular and the new changes in towing rules will increase that, but it is still very much a minority pursuit. 

Renault are making electric vans with a hydrogen fuel cell to add extra range. While I still feel I need my van and the EV, by the time my 3 year lease is up it is quite possible one hydrogen / electric van will do it all. Especially as by then I may well have given up my part-time work and will only need one vehicle. 

This is only going one way. Electric vehicles were available until the recent fuel crisis when uptake took off. An equivalent lease to mine is now about £40 a month more, in little more than a month.


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## MrGrumpy (24 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> I've taken a part-time job 25 miles away. Travelling 2-3 days a week. My parents are 18 miles away in the opposite direction. I cycle to their house occasionally, but also drive regularly as I take them out for lunch / coffee. They have both given up driving. The nearest Lidl is 20 miles away and we go there maybe twice a month for shopping. Around our small town we walk / cycle.
> 
> In contrast my caravan has been out 5 times this year. Most recent trip was 50 miles away for 5 nights. Furthest away was 140 miles.
> 
> ...


Yes we are being pushed that way for new vehicles ! There is however a massive market for 2nd hand cars ! Petrol and diesel is going nowhere fast !

Ps other than model X there are no EVs to tow my van ? 1800kg Not that I’m aware off , hybrids yes but not an EV .


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## figbat (24 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes we are being pushed that way for new vehicles ! There is however a massive market for 2nd hand cars ! Petrol and diesel is going nowhere fast !
> 
> Ps other than model X there are no EVs to tow my van ? 1800kg Not that I’m aware off , hybrids yes but not an EV .


1,800kg is quite a large outfit, plenty of ICE cars won’t tow it either. But anyway, these may do it:
Audi e-Tron 50/55 Quattro
Mercedes EQC 400
BMW iX
Rivian (when they get here)
Ineos Grenadier (ditto).


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## Nebulous (24 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yes we are being pushed that way for new vehicles ! There is however a massive market for 2nd hand cars ! Petrol and diesel is going nowhere fast !
> 
> Ps other than model X there are no EVs to tow my van ? 1800kg Not that I’m aware off , hybrids yes but not an EV .



That's a big van. I've a big twin axle and it is 'only' 1640 kg gross. 

The point I was making earlier is every purchase you ever make is a compromise. Like they say with wheels; price, weight, strength - pick any two. 

I don't think the 2% of my journeys, or 5% of my mileage with the caravan, should be the primary driver for what vehicle I have. 

Maybe by the time you go electric you will get a lighter caravan. We had a Dacia Logan which only towed something like 1100kgs. We struggled to find a caravan but bought a 1990s Swift which was 850kgs net, 1040 gross. We toured France, Spain, much of the UK and did about 10000 miles with it, including some mountain passes in the South of France. 

There are ways of making things work.


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## MrGrumpy (24 Oct 2021)

to be honest I think I’ll either sell the van or put it on a pitch if it comes to it .


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## MrGrumpy (24 Oct 2021)

figbat said:


> 1,800kg is quite a large outfit, plenty of ICE cars won’t tow it either. But anyway, these may do it:
> Audi e-Tron 50/55 Quattro
> Mercedes EQC 400
> BMW iX
> ...


Not looked at those yet quite spendy !!! Caravans will get lighter I’m sure. However this I think will be my last van . It’s obvious that the fun police ( green movement )  don’t want us doing anything that involves driving far .


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## figbat (24 Oct 2021)

We’re looking at going PHEV for our towcar when it is time for replacement, meaning much of the local use can be on battery with the ICE there for the heavy lifting when needed. Our van is just under 1,500kg.


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## MrGrumpy (24 Oct 2021)

Yep PHEV makes sense as a stop gap.


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## icowden (25 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Used cars will be around for along time yet. Remember it’s just new cars that will be no longer supplied. The thing with EVs is the need to pre plan journeys. That’s the theme running along here !



But how are you going to fuel your used car, once demand drops for Diesel / Petrol. Remember that as demand drops, prices at the pumps will rise.
You are also slightly off about BEVs. There is no need to plan journeys. The pre-planning is (at the moment) for *long* journeys. Most people do that to a degree with ICE cars anyway - work out how far they want to go, and where would be a nice place to stop for a break.


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## MrGrumpy (25 Oct 2021)

icowden said:


> But how are you going to fuel your used car, once demand drops for Diesel / Petrol.


 Your getting ahead of yourself , a long time to go yet . The used car market will tick over for a bit past 2030 , hybrids not banned till 5yrs later no ? HGVs ? Where are we with these ?


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## stoatsngroats (25 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Your getting ahead of yourself , a long time to go yet . The used car market will tick over for a bit past 2030 , hybrids not banned till 5yrs later no ? HGVs ? Where are we with these ?



Mercedes Actros. Here with a 250 mile range.


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## MrGrumpy (25 Oct 2021)

stoatsngroats said:


> Mercedes ActrosHere with a 250 mile range.


Interesting indeed ! Merc hope to have all switched by 2039 to electric in EU. ( trucks)


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## stoatsngroats (25 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Interesting indeed ! Merc hope to have all switched by 2039 to electric in EU. ( trucks)


Yes, there are pushing forwards definitely. They have buses at the same stage too.
And In China, BYD have much more actually in use…. Search for BYD, who are also in the US of A.
And also VOLvo trucks too Here

Here in the UK, it seems to me that EV cars have been taken as a good thing, although there are many who consider cost as too high (I agree) but these are the first adopters taking their opportunities.

If we look across the developed world car, truck and bus companies have already nailed their flags to the mast, some (like Ford and VW) are playing catch-up to Tesla, Rivian, and smaller (or less known in the UK) companies.
Banning cars in cities will increase immensely in the next 5 years, not just the capitals, but other conurbations, as the valid and worrying healthcare issues are obvious, and preventable.
Many people will complain or mistrust this development, no doubt, but be sure to understand that before 2028, hpthings will have changed immeasurably compared to today.
Working practices have inevitably changed, and will continue to do so, and as more change occurs, we will all have to look at our own lives to keep up with the change.
Working smarter, more locally, and using the public and community transport that is available (which will increase) and watching hub-to-hub deliveries to outside of towns, with the last mile or so being done by EVs will be more likely and much more beneficial.
All, of course, just my opinion.


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## MrGrumpy (25 Oct 2021)

Take the rose tinted glasses off  . I think we have along long way to go ! I’m pretty sure there will be more twists and turns ! A reliable and value for money public transport system everywhere would accelerate the need to stop driving in some cases but unfortunately in the UK that means privatisation and profits !


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## stoatsngroats (25 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Take the rose tinted glasses off  . I think we have along long way to go ! I’m pretty sure there will be more twists and turns ! A reliable and value for money public transport system everywhere would accelerate the need to stop driving in some cases but unfortunately in the UK that means privatisation and profits !



Mmm, maybe you’re right, but this is what my research indicates to me. We don’t live on our own on this world, and things are happening outside of, (and often not widely reported) our small domain.

Public transport is albeit slowly, changing again….. a recent end of a privatised rail company, and political considerations on emissions charging both announced recently in the UK, indicate this to me.
A long way to go, and a short time to get there, no doubt, but with fuel at £6.60 a gallon, and cars doing 50 miles for this cost is the beginning of unsustainable to me. I predict the cost of fuel to be at £10 a gallon (£2.15/ltr) before 2025…… that’s 3 years away… I believe that many younger people don’t own cars, and already use public transport (I’ve limited evidence, as I’m no longer young!)


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## MrGrumpy (25 Oct 2021)

stoatsngroats said:


> Mmm, maybe you’re right, but this is what my research indicates to me. We don’t live on our own on this world, and things are happening outside of, (and often not widely reported) our small domain.
> 
> Public transport is albeit slowly, changing again….. a recent end of a privatised rail company, and political considerations on emissions charging both announced recently in the UK, indicate this to me.
> A long way to go, and a short time to get there, no doubt, but with fuel at £6.60 a gallon, and cars doing 50 miles for this cost is the beginning of unsustainable to me. I predict the cost of fuel to be at £10 a gallon before 2025…… that’s 3 years away… I believe that many younger people don’t own cars, and already use public transport (I’ve limited evidence, as I’m no longer young!)


Well if fuel goes to that price you better dig deep for everything else will go up in price ! Also be prepared to be taxed even more , taxes and death the only guarantees in life ! The money has to come from somewhere.
Btw the environmental cost of batteries is not lost on me ! EVs are not the panacea in my opinion either ! However we will be kicked and pushed into submission !

Anyway if fuel is up to £10 a gallon as you say this baby below might just come into my budget


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## stoatsngroats (25 Oct 2021)

@MrGrumpy if you’re able, have a watch of THIS.

Richard Symons has some good experience of Tesla and others, it this video will indicate how quickly things have moved…. And includes a Porsche Taycan EV.

Ive just seen Hertz (USA) have placed an order for 100000 Tesla cars for their rental fleet….. Things are moving pretty quickly!


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## cougie uk (25 Oct 2021)

Twaaaang !!


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## stoatsngroats (25 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Twaaaang !!


Edited! 😂😂😂


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## icowden (26 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well if fuel goes to that price you better dig deep for everything else will go up in price !



Why? Logistics companies will be investing in EV tech too. The Tesla convoy will become a reality - saving energy by having autonomous trucks driving like a train.
The Tesla Semi is coming - Tesla think that the fuel savings over two years will pay for the truck. A 500 mile range, 6-mph up a 5% gradient, 0-60 in 20 secs pulling 80k lb.


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## gzoom (26 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Anyway if fuel is up to £10 a gallon as you say this baby below might just come into my budget
> 
> View attachment 615156



Yes it'll look great on the driveway as a static display.

Looking at current petrol prices my last combustion car would be costing me £80 per tank of fuel, which would get me around 250 miles. Our EV even with increased electricity costs is currently costing me £10 to fill up.


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## MrGrumpy (26 Oct 2021)

Your last petrol car must have had very poor mpg !! Even my dirty disco gets near double that mileage !


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## gzoom (26 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Your last petrol car must have had very poor mpg !! Even my dirty disco gets near double that mileage !



380WHP mapped to run on Ron 99 fuel is never going to be cheap to run .


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## MrGrumpy (30 Oct 2021)




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## fossyant (30 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> 380WHP mapped to run on Ron 99 fuel is never going to be cheap to run .


Sounds better than electric though


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## cougie uk (30 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> View attachment 615688



EVs handle water a lot better than ICE cars though. Who needs air intakes ? 


View: https://youtu.be/-Tzdwdso5YM


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## MrGrumpy (30 Oct 2021)

fossyant said:


> Sounds better than electric though


Yep EVs have no soul


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## MrGrumpy (30 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> EVs handle water a lot better than ICE cars though. Who needs air intakes ?
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/-Tzdwdso5YM



Was there an EV in that video ? Was that also some sort of challenge ?

I’m assuming all the LR owners were out of shot laughing away


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## Nebulous (30 Oct 2021)

I've discovered my workplace is further away than I thought. More like 27 miles than 25. With some work miles when I get there two trips in my new leaf are more difficult than I thought. I optimistically assumed three might be possible when I got it.

Anyway I did two shifts in my leaf and made it to the charger near my home with 11 miles / 6% battery to spare. Exactly 120 miles. A bit too close for comfort.

Here is the good part however. £8.01 for my charge. It costs me £9.50 per trip for diesel in my van, so £19 of diesel versus £8 of electric for the two trips.


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## cougie uk (31 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> I've discovered my workplace is further away than I thought. More like 27 miles than 25. With some work miles when I get there two trips in my new leaf are more difficult than I thought. I optimistically assumed three might be possible when I got it.
> 
> Anyway I did two shifts in my leaf and made it to the charger near my home with 11 miles / 6% battery to spare. Exactly 120 miles. A bit too close for comfort.
> 
> Here is the good part however. £8.01 for my charge. It costs me £9.50 per trip for diesel in my van, so £19 of diesel versus £8 of electric for the two trips.


Imagine if you can get cheap off-peak charging sorted. It'd be £2 for a full tank.


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## gzoom (31 Oct 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep EVs have no soul



You are not going to convince anyone on that one.....

Here are some of the combustion cars I've owned, a DC2 Teg, described by EVO magazine as 'The greatest FWD' car ever, and compared to the like of F40 and McLaren F1.

https://www.evo.co.uk/group-tests/14231/honda-integra-honda-integra-type-r







A 350Z, whilst not the last word in handling was good enough for Microsoft to use it as the headline car for Forza when the Xbox360 first appeared....






....and than the N54 335i, that I spend a stupid amount of £££ modifying to essentially make it better than the E90 M3 of the time. EVO don't give out 5 stars reviews that often!

Editorial - Evo 'Hartge Spirit' - E92 335i - April 2007 | Birds (birdsauto.com)






But you know what......I love our EV more than all those car put together......EVs have no 'soul', try again


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## CXRAndy (31 Oct 2021)

Nebulous said:


> I've discovered my workplace is further away than I thought. More like 27 miles than 25. With some work miles when I get there two trips in my new leaf are more difficult than I thought. I optimistically assumed three might be possible when I got it.
> 
> Anyway I did two shifts in my leaf and made it to the charger near my home with 11 miles / 6% battery to spare. Exactly 120 miles. A bit too close for comfort.
> 
> Here is the good part however. £8.01 for my charge. It costs me £9.50 per trip for diesel in my van, so £19 of diesel versus £8 of electric for the two trips.



You can drive on zero miles for about 15 miles. The car goes into snail mode

Ask work to fit an outside 7kW charger or if they are tight fisted a 13A out door socket. You will still get 6miles per hour- easy 40-50 miles in the battery per working day


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## MrGrumpy (31 Oct 2021)

gzoom said:


> You are not going to convince anyone on that one.....
> 
> Here are some of the combustion cars I've owned, a DC2 Teg, described by EVO magazine as 'The greatest FWD' car ever, and compared to the like of F40 and McLaren F1.
> 
> ...


Nice collection of cars , however you cannot beat the sound and note from an engine and exhaust ! Sorry EVs just remind me of Ernie the fastest milkman in the west  .


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## Nebulous (31 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Imagine if you can get cheap off-peak charging sorted. It'd be £2 for a full tank.



I've actually just managed to squeeze it into the side of my house. I couldn't get the door open to get out however. 

Unfortunately I'm on a two year contract at 19.8 p per unit. I'm not sure that I'd get off-peak very readily given the current state of the utility market.


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## Nebulous (31 Oct 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You can drive on zero miles for about 15 miles. The car goes into snail mode
> 
> Ask work to fit an outside 7kW charger or if they are tight fisted a 13A out door socket. You will still get 6miles per hour- easy 40-50 miles in the battery per working day



That's good to know about the snail mode, so my 6% battery wasn't as close to the limit as I thought. 

I'm doing 12 hour shifts, but we are on a temporary site and I'm working for the NHS, so the chance of them spending any money on it is as near zero as makes no difference.


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## CXRAndy (1 Nov 2021)

Nebulous said:


> That's good to know about the snail mode, so my 6% battery wasn't as close to the limit as I thought.
> 
> I'm doing 12 hour shifts, but we are on a temporary site and I'm working for the NHS, so the chance of them spending any money on it is as near zero as makes no difference.


Just throw an extension lead out of window. I charged our tesla on a campsite with an extension lead. No one will worry if you just need a small top up


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## cougie uk (1 Nov 2021)

Have you used Zap Map to look for chargers nearby ? Lidl, M&S, Tesco have them round here. Plus the odd petrol station.


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## Bazzer (1 Nov 2021)

As much as I like my hybrid, last week it set a new level of pleasure. It was convenient to fill it up, albeit there was still an indicated quarter of a tank left. Just before doing so I checked the car's computer as I couldn't remember the last time I filled it. 1,350 miles since the last fill. 
An unusual combination of pleasant weather and journeys which suited its electrical abilities, but I am not complaining.


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## Richard A Thackeray (1 Nov 2021)

This looks lovely

https://morris-commercial.com/

It was featured in that Guy Martin programme, when they tried to grab the drag-strip record with the Beetle


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## cougie uk (1 Nov 2021)

Niiiice.


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## stoatsngroats (1 Nov 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> This looks lovely
> 
> https://morris-commercial.com/
> 
> It was featured in that Guy Martin programme, when they tried to grab the drag-strip record with the Beetle



Thats beautiful! If I had the cash, I’d be happy to preorder!


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## Nebulous (2 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Have you used Zap Map to look for chargers nearby ? Lidl, M&S, Tesco have them round here. Plus the odd petrol station.



Unfortunately I have to make infrequent short trips at short notice once I am there, so I need my vehicle onsite. Its a fairly small town with very few chargers. 

A single return trip is no problem. I decided just to do the one yesterday. It was a more pleasant experience, with heating and heated wheel on in 4 C temperature. Once home I plugged into the public charger and walked a short distance home. I had expected to be able to do two return trips, but a combination of cold weather, darkness and me underestimating the distance combined to make two trips tighter than I expected.


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## Daninplymouth (2 Nov 2021)

Bazzer said:


> As much as I like my hybrid, last week it set a new level of pleasure. It was convenient to fill it up, albeit there was still an indicated quarter of a tank left. Just before doing so I checked the car's computer as I couldn't remember the last time I filled it. 1,350 miles since the last fill.
> An unusual combination of pleasant weather and journeys which suited its electrical abilities, but I am not complaining.


What hybrid are you using?
I keep looking at getting a Toyota self charging one but now looking at the costs may swap to full electric either the leaf or a Hyundai


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## Bazzer (2 Nov 2021)

Daninplymouth said:


> What hybrid are you using?
> I keep looking at getting a Toyota self charging one but now looking at the costs may swap to full electric either the leaf or a Hyundai


VW Golf.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Nov 2021)

Bazzer said:


> VW Golf.


That’s impressive mpg , I’m thinking it’s a good half way house. Mate at work was telling me about someone he met on a campsite , whom was towing a caravan. His hybrid FFRR not towing was getting a fairly impressive 60+mpg combined. 

I need room for elderly parent and MIL plus dogs and my own family. The above example is a stretch but some people need larger vehicles not wee pokey city cars. ( don’t live in the city ) .
I think in the next year , I may need to give some serious consideration to what we do with the caravan and/or the tow vehicle . 

If we start going abroad again regularly I think it will be chopped in .


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## Bazzer (2 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> That’s impressive mpg , I’m thinking it’s a good half way house. Mate at work was telling me about someone he met on a campsite , whom was towing a caravan. His hybrid FFRR not towing was getting a fairly impressive 60+mpg combined.
> 
> I need room for elderly parent and MIL plus dogs and my own family. The above example is a stretch but some people need larger vehicles not wee pokey city cars. ( don’t live in the city ) .
> I think in the next year , I may need to give some serious consideration to what we do with the caravan and/or the tow vehicle .
> ...


It certainly surprised me. I think motoring planets aligned just right with most journeys being electric, or for longer ones use of the ICE was limited. I would be amazed if it is replicated again and certainly not as the colder weather starts to arrive.
As with any car purchase, there are many factors which come into play and batteries are now just another one to consider. Also as I think stated on this this, or another similar thread, you become aware of power use. If there is just you or another front seat passenger, unless the windows need demisting, heated seats use less angry pixies that warming up the whole of the cabin.


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## MrGrumpy (2 Nov 2021)

Bazzer said:


> It certainly surprised me. I think motoring planets aligned just right with most journeys being electric, or for longer ones use of the ICE was limited. I would be amazed if it is replicated again and certainly not as the colder weather starts to arrive.
> As with any car purchase, there are many factors which come into play and batteries are now just another one to consider. Also as I think stated on this this, or another similar thread, you become aware of power use. If there is just you or another front seat passenger, unless the windows need demisting, heated seats use less angry pixies that warming up the whole of the cabin.


Yep the headline figures of range all look good but reduce a lot depending on conditions. A bit like quoted mpg !! I’m goi g to sit and watch how the market unfold I think . My big SUV at 10yr old not worth worrying about cash wise. It’s just running costs which is way cheaper than a £500 a month PCP/HP Tesla Model X or similar.


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## figbat (29 Nov 2021)

If you’re in Oxfordshire this trial is looking for participants (charging for on-road parking).


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## icowden (29 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep the headline figures of range all look good but reduce a lot depending on conditions.



FWIW there is a site that does for Electric what auto reviewers do for ICE cars. They give you the manufacturers range description and then the "real world" range.

https://ev-database.uk/cheatsheet/range-electric-car


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## CXRAndy (29 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep the headline figures of range all look good but reduce a lot depending on conditions


The ICE figures have been pie in the sky fairy tale numbers for years. Its no different with EVs but fortunately there are companies listing all vehicles they can get hold of to show real world usage. I use EV database and EPA figures when looking at alleged figures. 

I can easily attain range numbers, but my wife obliterates these, she has a heavy right foot. Hell she did that with ICE before too


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## Richard A Thackeray (11 Dec 2021)

This was the 'Mortuary Truck'
It replaced a converted milk-float!! (that was over 20 years old!)

For some reason, I recall that this wasn't limited, & would go as fast in reverse as in 'Drive'............ or so I'm told



Spoiler: Description of how it was used



The Mortuary was in a 'stand-alone' building, on the edge of the Stanley Royd site (built about 1820?), in as the 'West Riding Pauper Lunatic Asylum'), so a vehicle was needed to transport the deceased
A covered trolley was used for removal from the wards, & interchangeable trays slid into the back of it, on a set of rollers
(likewise, at the mortuary, the trays slid into the fridges
It was disposed of, when the new Hospital opened in 2010, as the Mortuary is in the basement



Despite the registration, it was an August 2005 image

Given how it looks, it did at intervals, have a black & white (stuffed toy) cat in it


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## Richard A Thackeray (12 Dec 2021)

'Trolley-Trucks' anyone?


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## figbat (26 Jan 2022)

So Tesla are piloting their Supercharger network for non-Tesla use. This all sounds very promising - whenever I have seen a Supercharger hub there are loads of empty bays. However it brings another conflict into play.

We're already seeing EV space conflicts, with them being taken up by ICEs and with PHEVs and BEVs staying far longer than needed for their charging needs. Now the Tesla trial offers a new way for EV pilots to get annoyed and further drive a wedge between "us and them". Tesla cars have their charging port at the rear-left and they are all the same. So the Supercharger network is set up to cater for this - with short charging cables that will reach a Tesla port if reversed into the bay.

However many other EVs have ports in other locations - take my MINI for example, it is rear-right. If I were to reverse into a Tesla bay I would have to use the charger to the right of the car. However that charger is really intended for the next bay over (to the right), so I am stealing that bay's charger, meaning that bay is now unavailable for a Tesla to use - I am effectively removing two bays from use by Teslas.


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## Milkfloat (26 Jan 2022)

EV cars blocking chargers can be solved easily by simply charging the vehicle a parking rate on top of the charging rate. Tesla can retrofit longer cables to their charging stations - all these types of problems are pretty easily solved.


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## figbat (26 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> EV cars blocking chargers can be solved easily by simply charging the vehicle a parking rate on top of the charging rate. Tesla can retrofit longer cables to their charging stations - all these types of problems are pretty easily solved.


Sure, but I assume the reason the cables are short is because copper is not free and the initial need was only to reach one charging port. Tesla do charge a dwell fee too.

Plenty of public chargers require you to bring your own cable, which sort of gets over the problem but means countless tonnes of cable being carried around.


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## Richard A Thackeray (26 Feb 2022)

I was quite taken with the Mini, in _'Vintage Voltage_' a couple of weeks ago, that looked good!!
300BHP, in a Mini


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## cougie uk (12 Mar 2022)

Vintage Voltage is a great show but it's mainly just rich people's playthings there. Did you see the 3 wheeler that they spent 40 grand on ? 
And the Mk2 Land Rover ? It was beautiful but they spent a huuuuge amount on it.


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## icowden (12 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Vintage Voltage is a great show but it's mainly just rich people's playthings there. Did you see the 3 wheeler that they spent 40 grand on ?
> And the Mk2 Land Rover ? It was beautiful but they spent a huuuuge amount on it.



The episode converting a Fiat 500 seems particularly pointless as Fiat have done it themselves. You can just buy one off the shelf. It's still the same size.


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