# Disc brakes to be allowed for pro teams - test period



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Apr 2015)

"The UCI’s long-time ban on disc brakes in professional racing will be partially lifted in August and September of this year, when all professional teams will be allowed to test discs in two events of their choice.

Testing will continue through 2016, when teams will be allowed to test discs in all professional road events. If testing goes well, discs will be formally introduced to the pro peloton in 2017, with the goal of eventually bringing the technology to all levels of road racing."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2015...i-to-lift-ban-on-disc-brakes-in-august_366590

UCI press release:
http://www.uci.ch/pressreleases/the...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## Yellow Saddle (14 Apr 2015)

This is rather quick actually, if you consider how long it is taking them to get rid of the drug issue.


----------



## HF2300 (14 Apr 2015)

User14044mountain said:


> ......that's 2 years to introduce a reasonably well tired and tested technology. I'm struggling to see why this should take so long.





Velonews said:


> ...concerns over wheel changes, neutral support, crash safety, and overheating have led the UCI to exercise caution ... There are myriad technical concerns ... Axle standards have not yet been agreed upon, and the tight tolerances of a disc system mean that wheel swaps have a higher potential to result in rubbing or noisy brakes ... Safety concerns, particularly surrounding the effect of spinning, sharp rotors in large crashes, could still slow or halt the technology’s implementation ... Many have concerns over the sharp edges on disc rotors, which can easily slice skin when spinning. Others fear the potential for an increase in crashes due a dramatic difference in brake power between those with and without discs ... Some pros ... are worried if you add quicker-stopping disc brakes, it could provoke even more pileups in an ever more nervous peloton...


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2015)

Excellent news


----------



## Keith Oates (15 Apr 2015)

Changing a wheel to replace a puncture won't be as quick as it is now.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Apollonius (15 Apr 2015)

I was having a close look at the Mavic neutral service car before the start at Compeigne on Sunday. One thing that interested me - an surprised me too - was the fact that the spare yellow frames they carry are fitted with old fashioned rat-trap pedals with mountain-bike style nylon toe straps and clips. Since I noticed later that the Sky bikes use a mix of SL, Look and those round ones I don't know the name of (Wiggins that is), I guess they have to meet all eventualities. 
The other issue is that Campagnolo do not make a disc system, and have no plans to do so as far as I know. 
My point is that until there is a universal system which is standardised across all manufacturers and teams, there is going to be a host of difficulties. It is not quite as simple as adopting a new technology. I personally prefer to have an effective quick-release system, and suspect the race teams would prefer this too.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2015)

Apollonius said:


> I was having a close look at the Mavic neutral service car before the start at Compeigne on Sunday. One thing that interested me - an surprised me too - was the fact that the spare yellow frames they carry are fitted with old fashioned rat-trap pedals with mountain-bike style nylon toe straps and clips. Since I noticed later that the Sky bikes use a mix of SL, Look and those round ones I don't know the name of (Wiggins that is), I guess they have to meet all eventualities.
> The other issue is that Campagnolo do not make a disc system, and have no plans to do so as far as I know.
> My point is that until there is a universal system which is standardised across all manufacturers and teams, there is going to be a host of difficulties. It is not quite as simple as adopting a new technology. I personally prefer to have an effective quick-release system, and suspect the race teams would prefer this too.



I think you and Prawn Boy make a good point. Standard is easier to do than to say. Will the discs be 160mm or 140mm? Will QR survive or will Through Axle (TA) take over. The weakest component on ProTour legal bikes we have today is the carbon clincher wheel. It really needs disc brakes to be effective and cheap enough to trickle down to Joe Average the consumer. The other issues with disc brakes such as strong fork blades and heat dissipation on small discs have already been solved by carbon fibre and Shimano's Freeza air-cooled discs/brake pads. I wonder if safety really is an issue? It is worth noting that the Shimano/Campag incompatibity of the 9-speed days was solved by 10-speed becoming universal and AFIK 11-speed Campag and Shimano are also compatible.

We have been future-proofing our bikes for 50 years now with "standard" seatpost sizes (26.4, 26.8, 27.2, 30.X mm) "standard" stem clamps (Italian/metric, 1" and modern 30.X sizes) "Standard" BB threads (Italian, French, Japanese, BSA, threadless, BB30, BB30 Pressfit.....) and still we seem no closer to a standard than when I started way back. I suppose I have to be grateful for standard pedal threads, only two standards for sprocket splines, standard cables, standard drop-out spacing and tyre sizes.

I'm spec'ing a new bike for myself right now and already I'm wondering if it should be Di2 or cable. Where will it end?


----------



## Strathlubnaig (15 Apr 2015)

My cx bike has discs, on my last race I flatted on lap 1, a guy gave me a non disc Campag rear wheel which more or less meshed with my Shimano bits. Finished the race on front brake only. If I can manage then surely the pros can ha ha


----------



## ufkacbln (15 Apr 2015)

The interesting thing will be to see how brakes affect speed... and the effect on the peloton

If (in theory) there is better braking then can those with disc brakes approach a feature faster, brake and power through where those without have to brake earlier and for a longer period have a disadvantage

Will there be collisions between the two ?


----------



## Apollonius (15 Apr 2015)

I suspect, as with cars, it will be the tyres that determine the braking. The other possibility is that they would all have to have disc brakes.


----------



## StuAff (16 Apr 2015)

Apollonius said:


> The other issue is that Campagnolo do not make a disc system, and have no plans to do so as far as I know.


They're coming. Valentino Campagnolo himself said they were working on them back in 2013.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (16 Apr 2015)

Will the introduction of more efficient disc brakes mean the peloton will be able to stop at level crossings more easily...?


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (16 Apr 2015)

Completely stupid idea, driven by Shimano no doubt.


----------



## HF2300 (16 Apr 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> The interesting thing will be to see how brakes affect speed... and the effect on the peloton
> 
> If (in theory) there is better braking then can those with disc brakes approach a feature faster, brake and power through where those without have to brake earlier and for a longer period have a disadvantage
> 
> Will there be collisions between the two ?



This is (sort of) the point some of the pros are worried about; if some have much more efficient brakes, someone in the peloton hitting the brakes to avoid a hazard or another rider is much more likely to cause a big crash due to the difference in braking ability between disc and non-disc equipped bikes.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (16 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> This is (sort of) the point some of the pros are worried about; if some have much more efficient brakes, someone in the peloton hitting the brakes to avoid a hazard or another rider is much more likely to cause a big crash due to the difference in braking ability between disc and non-disc equipped bikes.


Why are disc brakes more likely to cause crashes when there are already plenty with rim brakes?

Bit of a non argument that one, points to the act of braking being the cause, not differences between rim and disc.


----------



## HF2300 (16 Apr 2015)

I don't know, and I'm making no comment personally either way; you'd have to ask the pros that said it - Velonews quotes Gilbert, Phinney and King, for example.

I think their point is that if discs are more effective than rim brakes, the guy with discs can stop quicker than the guy on rim brakes. That could mean a situation in a tight bunch where the guy on discs taps the brakes and inadvertently causes a collision because the guy behind on (less effective) rim brakes can't slow as fast or stop in time.


----------



## Citius (16 Apr 2015)

Interesting fact - brakes don't make bikes quicker. You only have to look at CX to see how much difference the use of discs has made to the racing (ie none).


----------



## just jim (16 Apr 2015)

Does that mean..whole new lines of disc-brake carbon road bikes...will become the next mamil must-have? Yes.


----------



## ianrauk (16 Apr 2015)

just jim said:


> Does that mean..whole new lines of disc-brake carbon road bikes...will become the next mamil must-have? Yes.




They already have.


----------



## just jim (16 Apr 2015)

I'm behind the times - and it's a big behind.


----------



## oldroadman (16 Apr 2015)

It's been noted that the big issue is mixing two systems with different potential power. It HAS to be one or the other. Which means that it's not likely to filter down to the amateur levels for at least a further year. What is a worry when it does is the potential for locking up is higher with greater power, and some amateur racing is twitchy enough already! Then when a change comes (it will), how do you explain to all the riders with rim brake frames that they can't use the thing they spent £3,000 on, in competition any more? There's a lot of mileage in this yet.


----------



## jifdave (16 Apr 2015)

I listen to the velocast and they're biggest concern is a crash on an alpine descent after lots of breaking. 

Riders landing on a Red hot potentially sharpe edge cutting disc


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

jifdave said:


> I listen to the velocast and they're biggest concern is a crash on an alpine descent after lots of breaking.
> 
> Riders landing on a Red hot potentially sharpe edge cutting disc


No mention of the big spinning things called wheels or chainrings then?


----------



## jifdave (17 Apr 2015)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> No mention of the big spinning things called wheels or chainrings then?


No surprisingly, bikes already have them....


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

jifdave said:


> No surprisingly, bikes already have them....


Yeah they do, also capable of doing damage though. Fixating on potentially warm brake discs


----------



## jifdave (17 Apr 2015)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Yeah they do, also capable of doing damage though. Fixating on potentially warm brake discs



The fact is they're already on the bike so can't really be removed. I'm not disputing that they can do damage but adding more potential to do damage? I've never once gone down hill and felt my calipers were failing me. So have no need for discs. 

Your getting a little carried away with 'fixating' I was just adding to the debate.


----------



## 172traindriver (17 Apr 2015)

just jim said:


> Does that mean..whole new lines of disc-brake carbon road bikes...will become the next mamil must-have? Yes.



Loads of them around in Mallorca last month, and mostly groups of Germans on them. 
Seemed to be a lot on Stevens bikes with them.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

jifdave said:


> The fact is they're already on the bike so can't really be removed. I'm not disputing that they can do damage but adding more potential to do damage? I've never once gone down hill and felt my calipers were failing me. So have no need for discs.
> 
> Your getting a little carried away with 'fixating' I was just adding to the debate.


Not really. Every time disc brakes are mentioned the same overdone arguments against them are regurgitated. I'm surprised nobody has tried the "too much force for the spokes" one again.


----------



## 172traindriver (17 Apr 2015)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not really. Every time disc brakes are mentioned the same overdone arguments against them are regurgitated. I'm surprised nobody has tried the "too much force for the spokes" one again.



It's the industry that is pushing for it, and if the pro teams like it it will become the normal just like most things in life. You can understand why the industry wants it as its profits led. 
It would be interesting to fast forward 5 years and have a look at the scene then


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

HIstory is a pretty good predictor of the future. They changed the way MTBs look, and they improved braking in a discipline which relies a LOT more on braking than road cycling does (leaving aside the relatively small number of riders who ride alpine descents while braking heavily).


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

172traindriver said:


> It's the industry that is pushing for it, and if the pro teams like it it will become the normal just like most things in life. You can understand why the industry wants it as its profits led.
> It would be interesting to fast forward 5 years and have a look at the scene then


Indeed. I can't wait until Di2 hydraulic braked bikes reach a slightly more affordable price range  I would have one now if it wasn't for the potential (like in MTB) for standards to change.

i doubt 9mm QR's will remain standard on disc road setups for too long, when 15mm maxle is irrefutably a nicer and stiffer riding experience, but I'm confident there will be another latest and greatest before long.


----------



## w00hoo_kent (17 Apr 2015)

The interesting thing will be what happens in the peloton when it is wet. In the dry the rim brakes are more likely to lock wheels than the disks, riders on disk brakes should have more control to avoid a crashing rim braked bike in front of them. I expect a lot of blaming the new thing. Agreed the neutral spares issue is interesting. Which events does August/September give us?


----------



## 172traindriver (17 Apr 2015)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Indeed. I can't wait until Di2 hydraulic braked bikes reach a slightly more affordable price range  I would have one now if it wasn't for the potential (like in MTB) for standards to change.
> 
> i doubt 9mm QR's will remain standard on disc road setups for too long, when 15mm maxle is irrefutably a nicer and stiffer riding experience, but I'm confident there will be another latest and greatest before long.



Like most things once the early adopters get on board and it starts to become normal prices become realistic. Electronic shifting for example, everyone I know that has it loves it, but then before I go for that, do I wait for disc brakes to become affordable also


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> The interesting thing will be what happens in the peloton when it is wet. In the dry the rim brakes are more likely to lock wheels than the disks, riders on disk brakes should have more control to avoid a crashing rim braked bike in front of them. I expect a lot of blaming the new thing. Agreed the neutral spares issue is interesting. Which events does August/September give us?


In terms of service there would need to be 2 uniform things, disc size and axle standard.

Both mavic and shimano produce disc specific road wheels and both provide neutral servicing.


----------



## Apollonius (17 Apr 2015)

Even the Universal brakes on my 1959 Sid Mottram have the power to send me flying over the handlebars if I get the braking wrong - and I have the scars to prove it, so I doubt tis is all about improving braking. I think this is more to do with reducing the rolling weight of wheels by making carbon rims work properly without the need for a grafted-on alloy braking band.
Cynically, of course, it is an excellent way of making the world's racing bikes obsolete overnight, so we all have to buy new ones.


----------



## w00hoo_kent (17 Apr 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Even the Universal brakes on my 1959 Sid Mottram have the power to send me flying over the handlebars if I get the braking wrong - and I have the scars to prove it, so I doubt tis is all about improving braking. I think this is more to do with reducing the rolling weight of wheels by making carbon rims work properly without the need for a grafted-on alloy braking band.
> Cynically, of course, it is an excellent way of making the world's racing bikes obsolete overnight, so we all have to buy new ones.


Says the man riding a 1959 Sid Mottram! What you may get is another split in classes with classic (i.e. Pre disk, pre electronics) becoming a thing. New stuff doesn't make old stuff stop working.


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Even the Universal brakes on my 1959 Sid Mottram have the power to send me flying over the handlebars if I get the braking wrong - and I have the scars to prove it, so I doubt tis is all about improving braking. I think this is more to do with reducing the rolling weight of wheels by making carbon rims work properly without the need for a grafted-on alloy braking band.
> Cynically, of course, it is an excellent way of making the world's racing bikes obsolete overnight, so we all have to buy new ones.



Nothing to do with wheel weight, because what weight you might lose at the rim is probably replaced at the hub, with the additional weight of disc and hub mounts.


----------



## HF2300 (17 Apr 2015)

Citius said:


> Interesting fact - brakes don't make bikes quicker. You only have to look at CX to see how much difference the use of discs has made to the racing (ie none).



Be interesting to look at whether that's the case, or whether discs haven't made a difference because of other factors. Generally speaking if you can brake harder (decelerate quicker) you can stay at maximum velocity longer and therefore cover a given distance in less time or a greater distance in the same time; so if there isn't another limiting factor you'll be quicker.



T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> No mention of the big spinning things called wheels or chainrings then?



Well ... the fact that there are already hazards isn't a reason to add an extra hazard, if hazard it be...



T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Not really. Every time disc brakes are mentioned the same overdone arguments against them are regurgitated. I'm surprised nobody has tried the "too much force for the spokes" one again.



Funnily enough they have mentioned spoke strength, at least in the Velonews article. Whether the arguments are overdone or correct or not, as with all these things there are some stakeholders who feel one way, and some stakeholders who feel another. Trialling should show the validity of the arguments one way or another. If none of the safety arguments turn out to be valid or deal breakers, the technical issues will be resolved pretty quickly if it's in the industry's interest.



172traindriver said:


> It's the industry that is pushing for it, and if the pro teams like it, it will become the normal just like most things in life. You can understand why the industry wants it as it's profits led....Like most things once the early adopters get on board and it starts to become normal prices become realistic.



That's probably closest to the mark!


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Be interesting to look at whether that's the case, or whether discs haven't made a difference because of other factors. Generally speaking if you can brake harder (decelerate quicker) you can stay at maximum velocity longer and therefore cover a given distance in less time or a greater distance in the same time; so if there isn't another limiting factor you'll be quicker.



The limiting factor has always been the tyre not losing grip on the road surface. Given that it is already possible to lock a wheel (losing that grip) with caliper brakes, I don't personally see that as a huge benefit. The ability to brake harder will just result in more loss of grip, unless tyre technology dramatically improves to compensate. Having said that, the move towards wider tyres will give a wider contact patch, which will offset some of that.


----------



## Crackle (17 Apr 2015)

I recall the arguments when indexed gears came in. A few pro's expressed concern that their rivals would hear the gear click as they changed and know they were preparing to sprint past. Seems disc brakes are causing similar division. The thing I find about disc brakes on road bikes is they're fugly, really fugly. Apart from that...


----------



## w00hoo_kent (17 Apr 2015)

I'd be quite surprised if the pro peloton finds much advantage in going to disk. It would be fair to assume that the top riders are already pretty hot at bike control and so are already braking at the limit of what their tyres can do. As mentioned, disk brakes aren't likely to change that. The kit they are riding is expertly and regularly attended to by their mechanics so will be at the peak of its efficiency and we've all agreed elsewhere a well maintained and set up rim brake is no worse than a disk. As I said above, the only time it'll be interesting is when it gets wet and the vagaries of rim brakes no longer become an issue. It will also allow them to change wheel design, which may be beneficial for carbon rims.

The benefits are going to be lower down the rankings, club racers who are doing all their own maintenance and aren't cycle control gods. Every day riders who are buying what's available and start to get affordable hydraulic road brakes on their bikes. Riders who are riding in all conditions regularly and find they have better braking in poor conditions now.

I get the feeling at the top, it'll all be a bit anti-climatic but some prima donnas will have a new thing to blame poor performances on.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (17 Apr 2015)

Disc brakes don't allow you to brake harder. The maximum stopping deceleration you can achieve on a standard safety bike (i.e. all our bikes) is about 0.6G and that is very adequately achieved with coaster or rim brakes. The limiting factor is NOT the force the brake can apply but the overturning moment of the bike IN other words, the front wheel cannot lock up (n dry asphalt) because the bike will endo before the wheel locks up. We see evidence of that on motorcycles too, where a skilled rider can do a stoppie. If the wheel could lock up, you won't be able to do a stoppie. The back wheel easily locks up with any type of brake as you all know. All a disc adds to the rear is better heat dissipation on long descends and more predictable modulation. Note that increased brake force is actually a very negative thing to have on a rear brake.

A disc brake improves wet weather braking up to a point where traction becomes the limiting factor.

On dry asphalt the tyre is never the weakest link, overturning momentum is.

Spoke strength is more than adequate. At maximu deceleration of 0.6G, spoke tension in a 32-spoke front wheel increases by about 5%. The overall tension remains constant because only very second spoke increases tension. The other spokes all lose tension. IN other words, the trailing spokes gain 5% tension and the pushing spokes lose 5% tension. The wheel sees no increase in tension. The 5% - and that is at maximum - is far, far more than the margin in the spoke's tensile strength. Besides, mountain bikes have been using disc brakes for decades, no-one mentions that?

Hydraulic disc brakes will be the default choice for high-end bikes very shortly. Cable-disc brakes are a very poor choice because the cables are long and full of friction and the experience is awful. Hydraulic is like butter and stays that way through the bike's life.

Discs require a bit more maintenance, care and expertise, but that will come with time.

Shimano may be pushing the trend, but the Shimano solution is very, very good. The calipers are superb, the oil (rather than DOT fluid) makes bleeding a cinch and the small 140mm Freeza discs work like a charm, even with extreme brake dragging down a pass.

My next bike will have hydraulic discs.... Di2 can wait.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Funnily enough they have mentioned spoke strength, at least in the Velonews article. Whether the arguments are overdone or correct or not, as with all these things there are some stakeholders who feel one way, and some stakeholders who feel another. Trialling should show the validity of the arguments one way or another. If none of the safety arguments turn out to be valid or deal breakers, the technical issues will be resolved pretty quickly if it's in the industry's interest.


I don't care if there are stakeholders or marketing teams lining up to cash in on a disc brake boom. Nor do I care if the pros use them or not (besides disc systems inevitably becoming a bit cheaper, which isn't a deal breaker for me)

What I care about as a consumer and ultimately a tech fan, is buying bikes to the spec I desire. And I've desired hydraulic brakes since I first used them many years ago.


----------



## mustang1 (17 Apr 2015)

I love riding my MTB with hydro disks. So smooth, such modulation, so powerful. And they're only bottom if the range shimano.

Any bike I buy from now on will have disks as a minimum. I've even contemplated moving from a drop bar bike to flat bars just so I can have hydro disks (yes I know you can get hydro on drop bars but I'm uncertain how reliable they are and probably expensive too).


----------



## Learnincurve (17 Apr 2015)

This is a unbelievably stupid idea and my partner who is a cycling event medic also rolled his eyes to the heavens and started to stockpile burn medicine when we first heard about it. 

The main worry is the discs getting red hot which will not only burn people in the event of a Peleton crash but there is also a serious risk of bikes catching fire, (it's not a concern when it's a race where riders won't be in a pack like a downhill MTB race,) Not only in the event of a group crash but also if riders make a mistake in the peleton and get the wrong part of their own bike too close to the discs of another in a decent. There are potentially quite a few things on a bike that could go up and go up fast, some chain lubes are flammable, a lot of tyre sealants, degreasers and grease are also. Carbon actually needs to get quite hot before it catches, but that's irrelevant really as the tyres and seat posts will explode long before the frame starts to burn . 

In order for this to work, there needs to be strict regulations on what chemicals people are allowed to use on bikes.


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

Learnincurve said:


> This is a unbelievably stupid idea and my partner who is a cycling event medic also rolled his eyes to the heavens and started to stockpile burn medicine when we first heard about it.
> 
> The main worry is the discs getting red hot which will not only burn people in the event of a Peleton crash but there is also a serious risk of bikes catching fire, (it's not a concern when it's a race where riders won't be in a pack like a downhill MTB race,) Not only in the event of a group crash but also if riders make a mistake in the peleton and get the wrong part of their own bike too close to the discs of another in a decent. There are potentially quite a few things on a bike that could go up and go up fast, some chain lubes are flammable, a lot of tyre sealants, degreasers and grease are also. Carbon actually needs to get quite hot before it catches, but that's irrelevant really as the tyres and seat posts will explode long before the frame starts to burn .
> 
> In order for this to work, there needs to be strict regulations on what chemicals people are allowed to use on bikes.



Not sure if you're being serious or not? Fire risk - really???

How have motorsports - where speeds and disc temperatures are massively higher - managed for all these years?


----------



## ianrauk (17 Apr 2015)

Fire risk?..give over.


----------



## Learnincurve (17 Apr 2015)

Citius said:


> Not sure if you're being serious or not? Fire risk - really???
> 
> How have motorsports - where speeds and disc temperatures are massively higher - managed for all these years?



The disk brakes are not usually as exposed, there are not flammable sealants on the tyres, any other flammable chemicals such as oil or petrol is contained on the inside of the car. it is unlikely that a race car will fall sideways onto a driver with bare legs and arms.


----------



## Learnincurve (17 Apr 2015)

also this is what happens when flammable chain lube catches:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkA2tmLws_M


try that next to tubeless tyres and see what happens next


----------



## Stephen C (17 Apr 2015)

Genuinely interested, what are the likely temperatures reached by a disc brake? Nobody seems to have put a number on it as far as I can see. I also notice from looking at images that the discs are mostly air, I'm assuming for heat dissipation, what cooling rates are achievable?



Learnincurve said:


> also this is what happens when flammable chain lube catches:



The last time I checked, the disc brakes were on the other side of wheel to the chain...


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

Learnincurve said:


> This is a unbelievably stupid idea and my partner who is a cycling event medic also rolled his eyes to the heavens and started to stockpile burn medicine when we first heard about it.
> 
> The main worry is the discs getting red hot which will not only burn people in the event of a Peleton crash but there is also a serious risk of bikes catching fire, (*it's not a concern when it's a race where riders won't be in a pack like a downhill MTB race,*) Not only in the event of a group crash but also if riders make a mistake in the peleton and get the wrong part of their own bike too close to the discs of another in a decent. There are potentially quite a few things on a bike that could go up and go up fast, some chain lubes are flammable, a lot of tyre sealants, degreasers and grease are also. Carbon actually needs to get quite hot before it catches, but that's irrelevant really as the tyres and seat posts will explode long before the frame starts to burn .
> 
> In order for this to work, there needs to be strict regulations on what chemicals people are allowed to use on bikes.


If you're saying that a disc brake will get hot enough to burn someone enough to need treatment then it doesn't matter if it's a bunch race, an enduro or DH because these burns (I ride MTB an awful lot and I've never seen a red hot brake disc... LOL ) will all be the same, a disc brake is a disc brake..

How many people ride with degreasers stuck to their bikes?

So much nonsense spouted


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

Learnincurve said:


> also this is what happens when flammable chain lube catches:
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkA2tmLws_M
> ...




You know the flammable bit in chain lube is the carrier solvent, right? You know that evapourates in a matter of minutes, right? You know that such solvents are only ignited by an open flame, and not simply by heat, right? I can't believe I'm reading this. I must have missed all those chain fires in MotoGP and WSB.

On the positive side though, thanks for giving me the biggest laugh I've had today


----------



## ianrauk (17 Apr 2015)

All us disc braked bike riders are going to burn in hell...,,


----------



## Learnincurve (17 Apr 2015)

Stephen C said:


> The last time I checked, the disc brakes were on the other side of wheel to the chain...



/facepalming

_Your _chain is on the other side, it's the guy next to you that's the problem. 



T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> If you're saying that a disc brake will get hot enough to burn someone enough to need treatment then it doesn't matter if it's a bunch race, an enduro or DH because these burns (I ride MTB an awful lot and I've never seen a red hot brake disc... LOL ) will all be the same, a disc brake is a disc brake..



Lucky you, the scars from the third degree burn on _my_ leg from riding fast downhill, then face planting with my bike on top of me would suggest otherwise. The fact that disc brakes get red hot has never been in question, it's a fact and it's one of the reasons they were never allowed in pro-pelaton's before, it's not you that's going to get burned if a bike goes sideways it's the person underneath your bike and in solo races that isn't an issue.

What I'm asking isn't madness or laughable, I'm not ragging on people commuting with disc brakes or off road riders. This isn't personal and it does not apply to anyone but actual professional road racers. I'm asking that the regulations take into account the fact that these brakes get red hot on fast descents and that there should be additional regulations put in place to control flammable materials on bikes, *especially the highly flammable solvents used in tubeless set ups* they were not needed before as there was never anything glowing with V or canti brakes.


----------



## smutchin (17 Apr 2015)

Lately I've been riding a bike with hydraulic discs and fitted with 160mm rotors front and rear. It's massive overkill in braking power for a road bike but it's a sheer joy to use. You can modulate braking power really easily and it inspires far greater confidence on descents.


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

Learnincurve said:


> I'm asking that the regulations take into account the fact that these brakes get red hot on fast descents and that there should be additional regulations put in place to control flammable materials on bikes, *especially the highly flammable solvents used in tubeless set ups* they were not needed before as there was never anything glowing with V or canti brakes.



The citical point - which you are still missing - is that without an ignition source, none of that will actually happen. Do you have any idea what the auto-ignition temperatures are for most hydrocarbons, in normal atmosphere?


----------



## raindog (17 Apr 2015)

Bloody hell, calm down everyone.....


----------



## ianrauk (17 Apr 2015)

raindog said:


> Bloody hell, calm down everyone.....




It's a hot topic....


----------



## HF2300 (17 Apr 2015)

ianrauk said:


> It's a hot topic....



Groan.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

ianrauk said:


> It's a hot topic....


One that must be disc-ussed


----------



## fossyant (17 Apr 2015)

ianrauk said:


> It's a hot topic....



Cooking. PS Rims get bloody hot too - enough to melt tub glue on big hills !

PS road bikes using discs will burn in hell - fugly as hell.


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

raindog said:


> Bloody hell, calm down everyone.....



If only you'd said _"hey, where's the fire?"_


----------



## Crackle (17 Apr 2015)

There's a reasonable article here, raises the concerns, many already noted and an advantage where it talks about tub glue melting in high heat at Oman due to rim braking

http://www.bicycling.com/racing/bikes-and-gear/uci-test-disc-brakes-road-races-august

I would think that aero, weight and neutral service compatibility may prove decisive but not to say they may not have their occasional applications in racing.


----------



## HF2300 (17 Apr 2015)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I don't care if there are stakeholders or marketing teams lining up to cash in on a disc brake boom. Nor do I care if the pros use them or not (besides disc systems inevitably becoming a bit cheaper, which isn't a deal breaker for me)
> 
> What I care about as a consumer and ultimately a tech fan, is buying bikes to the spec I desire. And I've desired hydraulic brakes since I first used them many years ago.



Sorry old chap, naively I was discussing "Disc brakes to be allowed for pro teams - test period"



Crackle said:


> I would think that ... weight ... may prove decisive but not to say they may not have their occasional applications in racing.



I assume the brake / wheel assembly weight counts towards the minimum weight limit, in which case could they just shave weight elsewhere to compensate?

One thing that is significant is that hopefully it signifies an end to UCI paralysis over (archaic) bike specs.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

HF2300 said:


> Sorry old chap, naively I was discussing "Disc brakes to be allowed for pro teams - test period"


It's all relative


----------



## Citius (17 Apr 2015)

Pro team bikes are already carrying additional weights in order to keep them above the UCI limit. Using discs is not going to make them any heavier than they are now.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Apr 2015)

Citius said:


> Pro team bikes are already carrying additional weights in order to keep them above the UCI limit. Using discs is not going to make them any heavier than they are now.


In clever places inc the centre hole of the crankset(drive side).


----------



## smutchin (17 Apr 2015)

Learnincurve said:


> The fact that disc brakes get red hot has never been in question, it's a fact and it's one of the reasons they were never allowed in pro-pelaton's before



Another fact: carbon rims make a shite braking surface. 

This, for me, is the biggest argument in favour of disc brakes. I mean, rather have too much braking power than none at all, right?


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (17 Apr 2015)

smutchin said:


> Another fact: carbon rims make a shite braking surface.
> 
> This, for me, is the biggest argument in favour of disc brakes. I mean, rather have too much braking power than none at all, right?



This, for me, a sound argument for banning carbon rims.

While they are at it, they can ban carbon frames too.


----------



## andrew_s (17 Apr 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Freeza discs work like a charm, even with extreme brake dragging down a pass.


I have seen photos of one of those discs with the aluminium core of the disc squeezing out from between the steel faces where the heat build up from dragging the brakes on an Alpine descent softened it. (OK, it was on a tandem)


----------



## Yellow Saddle (18 Apr 2015)

Learnincurve said:


> /facepalming
> 
> _Your _chain is on the other side, it's the guy next to you that's the problem.
> 
> ...



I see one can now buy ceramic chain lube. Presumably this is not flammable (my ceramic oven dishes don't seem to burn) and obviously this stuff was produced in anticipation of this severe fire risk.

Apparently asbestos-laced lycra is under development at Du Pont.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (18 Apr 2015)

andrew_s said:


> I have seen photos of one of those discs with the aluminium core of the disc squeezing out from between the steel faces where the heat build up from dragging the brakes on an Alpine descent softened it. (OK, it was on a tandem)


Where?


----------



## w00hoo_kent (18 Apr 2015)

andrew_s said:


> I have seen photos of one of those discs with the aluminium core of the disc squeezing out from between the steel faces where the heat build up from dragging the brakes on an Alpine descent softened it. (OK, it was on a tandem)


Apparently this is the biggest difference, braking method. Disks are better for short heavy periods of braking while rims are often dragged on descents. Those racing disks are going to have to change how they think about braking to get the most out of them. Fortunately they don't descend the long alpine type hills in a bunch.


----------



## smutchin (18 Apr 2015)

Melting point of aluminium is 660°C. My initial thought was: "No way are people achieving that kind of temperature on bike brakes!" But then I looked into it some more...

Current F1 cars use rotors made of something called "carbon-carbon", which apparently performs poorly below 400ºC and only reaches optimum performance above 650ºC. It says here that brake temperatures can reach 1200ºC in an F1 race:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/technology-explained/f1-2014-explained-brake-systems/

I'm no scientist but it sounds plausible to me that you could achieve a high enough temperature on a long alpine descent on a tandem to at least soften an aluminium rotor.

The adoption of disc brakes by the pros will no doubt drive technology forward much quicker and we'll soon start to see rotors made of all sorts of exotic materials designed for higher performance expectations. In the same way that F1 technology trickles down to the consumer market eventually, pros using disc brakes will in the long run be a good thing for the average cyclist.


----------



## smutchin (18 Apr 2015)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> This, for me, a sound argument for banning carbon rims.



Possibly, but it's never going to happen - it's more likely to be a driver for brake pad manufacturers to improve their compounds to work better on carbon rims. 



> While they are at it, they can ban carbon frames too.



LOL


----------



## Yellow Saddle (18 Apr 2015)

smutchin said:


> Melting point of aluminium is 660°C. My initial thought was: "No way are people achieving that kind of temperature on bike brakes!" But then I looked into it some more...
> 
> Current F1 cars use rotors made of something called "carbon-carbon", which apparently performs poorly below 400ºC and only reaches optimum performance above 650ºC. It says here that brake temperatures can reach 1200ºC in an F1 race:
> http://www.racecar-engineering.com/technology-explained/f1-2014-explained-brake-systems/
> ...



Aluminium is extruded at between 350 and 500 Degrees C under pressure of about 100 000 PSI. I would imagine that a tandem's rear brakes could well melt or at least extrude the aluminium but anyone who goes down an Alpine descent on a tandem with aluminium discs need to be taken out of the gene pool. A large 205mm stainless disc is fine though.

Sintered metal pads used on MTBs work better at higher temperatures than resin pads and easily burns the stainless steel disc so that it settles with a blue colour, This happens (depending on the steel composition) at about 350 degrees C. Any hotter and it turns brownish, which we don't see much. However, this colour gives us a reasonable indicator how hot the hottest brakes become.

Thus, to extrude (push alu out of the stainless-alu-stainless) Shimano disc sandwich you have to have heat higher than 350 and pressure extremely high. Unfortunately I don't know what the pressure is but I think it would be reasonably to assume that the molten disc scenario is only likely under the most unlikely scenarios, such as the Darwinian tandem riders.


----------



## HF2300 (18 Apr 2015)

Tests on Velotech see rotor temperatures into the low 400 degrees C, so probably not far out. You'd have to go some to get clamping forces in the 100,000 PSI range given likely line pressures of around 2000 PSI though, so perhaps a test situation with higher non-real world disc temperatures?


----------



## Andrew Br (21 Apr 2015)

I'm a big fan of disc brakes in road bikes so I welcome this as a step forward. What I can't understand is why the UCI are letting the teams choose which events to run discs on.
Surely it'll lead to a mix of rim and disc-braked bikes on the same event ? That will cause a lot of hassle for the neutral service and, should it rain, there will be a vast difference in braking performance in the peleton.


----------



## 172traindriver (21 Apr 2015)

Andrew Br said:


> I'm a big fan of disc brakes in road bikes so I welcome this as a step forward. What I can't understand is why the UCI are letting the teams choose which events to run discs on.
> Surely it'll lead to a mix of rim and disc-braked bikes on the same event ? That will cause a lot of hassle for the neutral service and, should it rain, there will be a vast difference in braking performance in the peleton.



That is a point, but don't forget Campag havent yet released disc brakes, so unless they do any teams running them wont be able to use them anyway.


----------



## zizou (21 Apr 2015)

I can see the advantages for discs on the road for commuters, tourers and winter training, and obviously for mountain biking too (i not only remember what mini v brakes were like compared to discs i still have an old mtb with them alongside a mtb with discs). But for road racing rim brakes already work well and the advantage that discs bring to the table is marginal at best and not worth the downsides - whether it be weight, aero, problems with neutral service etc. If pro riders have a free choice in the matter then most of them will not pick disc brakes IMO. And its not because they are resistant to change, if they thought there was a performance advantage they would jump on the bandwagon pretty damn quick.



w00hoo_kent said:


> Apparently this is the biggest difference, braking method. Disks are better for short heavy periods of braking while rims are often dragged on descents. Those racing disks are going to have to change how they think about braking to get the most out of them. Fortunately they don't descend the long alpine type hills in a bunch.



Pros (actually make that experienced amateur riders too) dont drag their brakes on descents, that is bad practice whether it is rim or disc brakes. 



smutchin said:


> Possibly, but it's never going to happen - it's more likely to be a driver for brake pad manufacturers to improve their compounds to work better on carbon rims.



Decent pad compounds and carbon rims have pretty good braking these days.


----------



## StuAff (21 Apr 2015)

172traindriver said:


> That is a point, but don't forget Campag havent yet released disc brakes, so unless they do any teams running them wont be able to use them anyway.


Actually, they could, assuming Campagnolo didn't object to their teams using third-party products...either cable discs, or TRP Hy/Rd would work.


----------



## jifdave (22 Apr 2015)

campag have been working on them for years apparently.
http://road.cc/content/news/96330-c...-are-working-hydraulic-disc-brakes-road-bikes (14oct 2013)


----------



## oldroadman (22 Apr 2015)

Someone commented that on long mountain descents the race is not bunched. No, it's a long line with close spacing, and if the bloke in front goes down, you have to act fast to avoid hitting him.
That's that, now the business about dragging brakes is spheroids. Braking is done firmly, on the straights, just before the bends. On carbon rims with alloy facings on the braking surface. This works fine. Back in the day all rims were alloy, brakes were not quite so good as today, but still descending speeds were above 80km/hr. I'm amazed we all survived!
Personally I'm not concerned about profis using disc brakes, what worries me is when they are allowed at local level and the numpties panic brake, then the next thing is a big heap of people on the ground. So although pro peloton will likely be 2017, let's hope it takes at least a couple of years to get down to local level. Then it's all or nothing, it's simply mad to have some on rim and some on disc, accident waiting to happen.
Now that wouldn't mean lots of new bikes being sold, by any chance, would it. there's a thought. Bet no-one in the trade ever thought of that....!


----------



## Citius (22 Apr 2015)

I don't see the issue with mixing disc and caliper brakes in amateur races - nobody ever brakes anyway.


----------



## oldroadman (22 Apr 2015)

Citius said:


> I don't see the issue with mixing disc and caliper brakes in amateur races - nobody ever brakes anyway.


They don't go fast enough, don't know how to, can't corner anyway, are you referring to lower category (2/3/4 level) races by the word "amateur" - a classification which does not exist? In fact it seems to be just the opposite, there's far too much braking because of lousy skill levels in a certain percentage, and unwillingness to learn or be told anything. So seriously, it would be mad to mix systems. All or nothing. Still, the manufacturers will do all right, so that's OK then.


----------



## Citius (22 Apr 2015)

Brakes get dabbed in the bunch all the time, but that type of braking is agnostic to either disc or caliper. Short of riding down an alpine col, you rarely slam the anchors on good n proper in any kind of bunch racing (pro or amateur) and most of the braking you do is designed to scrub speed off, not bring yourself to a dead stop.

Skill levels are irrelevant too. Skill is the application of a technique - unskilled riders will still fvck things up, regardless of whether they are on disc or caliper.

So no, I don't think it matters, and I don't think mixing brake types will be anything like the carnage that some people think it will be. In any case, at amateur race level, the two types will have to sit together - because there is no other practical and cost-effective way to introduce them to the membership in a way that they will accept without rioting in the streets of Manchester.


----------



## andrew_s (22 Apr 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Where?


Ventoux (end of post), during a magazine brake test, and again, on a real hill
The last link, on the real hill, is a solo, ballasted to fat bastard territory
just put "ice tech rotor melt" into google for more


----------



## Yellow Saddle (23 Apr 2015)

andrew_s said:


> Ventoux (end of post), during a magazine brake test, and again, on a real hill
> The last link, on the real hill, is a solo, ballasted to fat bastard territory
> just put "ice tech rotor melt" into google for more



Mein Gott!!!


----------



## Yellow Saddle (23 Apr 2015)

oldroadman said:


> They don't go fast enough, don't know how to, can't corner anyway, are you referring to lower category (2/3/4 level) races by the word "amateur" - a classification which does not exist? In fact it seems to be just the opposite, there's far too much braking because of lousy skill levels in a certain percentage, and unwillingness to learn or be told anything. So seriously, it would be mad to mix systems. All or nothing. Still, the manufacturers will do all right, so that's OK then.


This issue is moot. The minimum stopping distance from a given speed is exactly the same for disc and rim brakes. It is a fallacy that disc brakes allow you to stop quicker.


----------



## oldroadman (23 Apr 2015)

Citius said:


> Brakes get dabbed in the bunch all the time, but that type of braking is agnostic to either disc or caliper. Short of riding down an alpine col, you* rarely slam the anchors on good n proper in any kind of bunch racing (pro or amateur)* and most of the braking you do is designed to scrub speed off, not bring yourself to a dead stop.
> 
> Skill levels are irrelevant too. Skill is the application of a technique - unskilled riders will still fvck things up, regardless of whether they are on disc or caliper.
> 
> So no, I don't think it matters, and I don't think mixing brake types will be anything like the carnage that some people think it will be. In any case, at amateur race level, the two types will have to sit together - because there is no other practical and cost-effective way to introduce them to the membership in a way that they will accept without rioting in the streets of Manchester.



I wouldn't be too sure of that, there were plenty of times in the peloton when we came to a dead stop behind crashes (or indeed at the notorious level crossing gates). The limiting factor is as ever grip, and a concern is that over strong application of any brake can cause a slide, which IF the disc is potentially more powerful could be a serious issue. The difference in the wet - already described by users - is possibly a bigger worry, because people WILL start braking faster (and possibly later) on discs and the effect in a big peloton can be easily anticipated!


----------



## oldroadman (23 Apr 2015)

Then again, what do I know? Just an old retired racer. I would be very happy if all the experts on this forum were right and I was proved to be wrong.


----------



## Citius (23 Apr 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Then again, what do I know? Just an old retired racer. I would be very happy if all the experts on this forum were right and I was proved to be wrong.



You're not the only racer on the forum 

The 'braking power' thing has already been addressed (there's naff-all difference). I had to rack my brains to think back to the number of times I have ever needed to come to a 'dead stop' during a race - the answer I came to was = I have never needed to do that.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (23 Apr 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Then again, what do I know? Just an old retired racer. I would be very happy if all the experts on this forum were right and I was proved to be wrong.


Well, here's the challenge. Show us how you skid your front wheel. You do say that the limiting factor is grip, after all.


----------



## MisterStan (23 Apr 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Well, here's the challenge. Show us how you skid your front wheel. You do say that the limiting factor is grip, after all.


Easy, you grab the brakes, you lock up the front wheel, it skids from under you (let's say it's wet at the time for simplicity) you fall on your arse.


----------



## User169 (30 Nov 2015)

More disc brakes in the pro ranks..

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...disc-brakes-use-in-2016-professional-peloton/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Nov 2015)

The debate drags on...
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...d-tunnel-testing-disc-brake-road-bikes_355621


----------



## Citius (30 Nov 2015)

Marmion said:


> The debate drags on...
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...d-tunnel-testing-disc-brake-road-bikes_355621



This article is a year old.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> This article is a year old.


Yes, I know


----------



## Citius (30 Nov 2015)

So how does an article from 12 months ago mean _'the debate drags on'_..??


----------



## oldroadman (2 Dec 2015)

Bottom line, it's going to happen. Nightmare in races for neutral service who already have to carry two kinds of rear wheels, just multiply by at least two again. The only correct way to do this is 100% one system or another, no compromise. And all driven by the need of big money manufacturers who need to sell more kit. Nothing to do with the sport, just money for shareholders. As ever. A bigger worry is what happens when it works down to the lower levels, where mixing is more likely, and if I'm allowed to say this without getting flamed, less experienced or skilled riders are involved. Then if there are a series of incidents, insurers will get involved, and off we go again. Insuring races must be a nightmare anyway, in an age of claim for everything. I hope this does not happen, but it might? Anyone have any idea what BC have to pay in a year for insurance?


----------



## Crackle (2 Dec 2015)

Nibali is in favour with the same two reservations as have surfaced since it was mooted: Braking forces between two disparate systems and discs in a crash. I guess we won't know how big either of these issues are until next season.


----------



## Citius (2 Dec 2015)

Disk and canti mix perfectly well in CX and used to (probably still do) mix perfectly well in MTB. It's a non issue.


----------



## oldroadman (3 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Disk and canti mix perfectly well in CX and used to (probably still do) mix perfectly well in MTB. It's a non issue.


An entirely different discipline, with no packed peloton filling a road within centimetres of each other. A lot of off road races end up with a few small groups and lots of individual riders. Thus whilst the analogy that mixed systems work appears Ok, in fact the context is so different that it's hard to see how it can be valid. In summary, I disagree with the statement "it's a non issue" when applied to road racing.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (3 Dec 2015)

What if a wheel comes off, bounces across the road and the disc slices the arm off a watching child? Or cuts the ear off a passing dog? What then? Is there no end to the horror?


----------



## Hont (4 Dec 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Nightmare in races for neutral service who already have to carry two kinds of rear wheels.


Just have double the amount of neutral service cars. That'll solve the problem because they'll be taking out so many riders that there'll be no chance of a packed peloton.


----------



## oldroadman (4 Dec 2015)

Hont said:


> Just have double the amount of neutral service cars. That'll solve the problem because they'll be taking out so many riders that there'll be no chance of a packed peloton.


----------



## jowwy (4 Dec 2015)

Marmion said:


> What if a wheel comes off, bounces across the road and the disc slices the arm off a watching child? Or cuts the ear off a passing dog? What then? Is there no end to the horror?


you are joking right?? do you know how fast a disc would have to spin to cut through human flesh and bone? and if it can happen with brake discs it can also happen with the rear cassettes, if the rear wheel flie off and approx 100 teeth coming flying towards you on the cassette

and just to add you watch spectator sports at your own risk....the same as when people watch formula 1, rally cross, etc etc etc


----------



## rich p (4 Dec 2015)

jowwy said:


> you are joking right??


I'm pretty sure he's deadly serious


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (4 Dec 2015)

jowwy said:


> do you know how fast a disc would have to spin to cut through human flesh and bone?


I give up.


----------



## rich p (4 Dec 2015)

Marmion said:


> I give up.


Promises, promises!


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

I wonder if the UCI drop their ridiculous weight limit rules would we would see such a big take up of disc brakes?


----------



## Citius (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I wonder if the UCI drop their ridiculous weight limit rules would we would see such a big take up of disc brakes?



Most pro team bikes are already carrying added weight in order hit the minimum weight limit, so I doubt it would make any difference..


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I wonder if the UCI drop their ridiculous weight limit rules would we would see such a big take up of disc brakes?


My disc brake machine is 7.6kg without me putting any effort into shedding weight, I could get it down to 6.8 - 7kg for not much ££, as Citius posted above me, many teams are already adding weight to frames!


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Most pro team bikes are already carrying added weight in order hit the minimum weight limit, so I doubt it would make any difference..



My thoughts were if the UCI lowered or removed the minimum weight rules then maybe teams would stick to the lighter calipers. At the moment, there is no weight penalty in discs because the teams simple require less ballast in the frame.


----------



## Crackle (4 Dec 2015)

I've just added some weight to mine







and yes, I'm being serious.


----------



## smutchin (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> My thoughts were if the UCI lowered or removed the minimum weight rules then maybe teams would stick to the lighter calipers. At the moment, there is no weight penalty in discs because the teams simple require less ballast in the frame.



The Focus Izalco Max Disc is bang on 6.8kg. There are sub-5kg bikes out there and given that disc brakes don't add 1.8kg to the overall weight, it would presumably be easy to go much lower.


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

So if the UCI did away with a minimum weight limit - do you think teams would drops discs in order to create a superlightweight bike?


----------



## Citius (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> So if the UCI did away with a minimum weight limit - do you think teams would drops discs in order to create a superlightweight bike?



Not really.


----------



## Crackle (4 Dec 2015)

Lighter bikes might create some problems in the Netherlands

(50secs)


----------



## jowwy (4 Dec 2015)

i dont see why people think discs are heavier - trp spyres are 159grammes - 105 calipers are 162 grammes so a few gramme savings 

yes there are discs to add to that weight but its around 80 grammes.......lighter wheels would negate that easily


----------



## smutchin (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> So if the UCI did away with a minimum weight limit - do you think teams would drops discs in order to create a superlightweight bike?



Given that the main driver for the adoption of new bike technology is nearly always the industry rather than the racers... what do you think?


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

Well we already have bikes lighter than UCI limits, so I guess at some point theses limits will be reduced to match reality. If it is lowered by say 500g then I see discs here to stay, but if there is no lower limit then personally I could see teams forgoing discs to get the lightest bike they can with none of the problems that wheel changes during a race bring.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (4 Dec 2015)

jowwy said:


> i dont see why people think discs are heavier - trp spyres are 159grammes - 105 calipers are 162 grammes so a few gramme savings
> 
> yes there are discs to add to that weight but its around 80 grammes.......lighter wheels would negate that easily


+ small changes to the hub 6bolt/CL and minus weight of brake tracks. Even with a disc the savings aren't small


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> none of the problems that wheel changes during a race bring.


What problems?


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

As mentioned already I think - neutral compatibility and disc rub/alignment.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> As mentioned already I think - neutral compatibility and disc rub/alignment.


Disc brakes self adjust, I change wheels often enough without any further adjustment.

Neutral compatibility is only an issue while no set standard exists - it will come before 2017 rollout. I would be very surprised if it wasn't a through axle standard over QR across the board.


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Disc brakes self adjust, I change wheels often enough without any further adjustment.
> 
> Neutral compatibility is only an issue while no set standard exists - it will come before 2017 rollout



I only have discs on my MTB but I have to reset caliper positions with a wheel change. OK, a sample of one and not a road bike, but you think there really is no issue?

You are very optimistic on a single standard, I would be very surprised - they cannot even agree on axles at the moment and it's only a few months away before 2017 bikes are finalized.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I only have discs on my MTB but I have to reset caliper positions with a wheel change. OK, a sample of one and not a road bike, but you think there really is no issue?
> 
> You are very optimistic on a single standard, I would be very surprised - they cannot even agree on axles at the moment and it's only a few months away before 2017 bikes are finalized.


I do think there is no issue with disc brakes themselves. The problem as rightly pointed out is neutral servicing which simply cannot support wheels for 3 4 5 6 however many designs of wheel fixing that exist for races of 200 riders. If my mental maths is correct there are 4 current axle standards**** (QR 12mm 15mm and FOCUS R.A.T system which is technically 15mm)

****Which for many wheels is just a matter of swapping a cap on the hub, mostly a tool-free job but no guarantee..


----------



## smutchin (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Well we already have bikes lighter than UCI limits, so I guess at some point theses limits will be reduced to match reality. If it is lowered by say 500g then I see discs here to stay, but if there is no lower limit then personally I could see teams forgoing discs to get the lightest bike they can with none of the problems that wheel changes during a race bring.



Dave Brailsford: Yo, Barry Pinarello, send us a load of Dogmas for the team, would ya?
Barry Pinarello: Sure Dave, we'll ship out a bunch of the ace new disc brake version right away.
Dave Brailsford: Hmmm, thanks, Baz, but the lads reckon them newfangled contraptions are a bit OTT for racing - and heavy too.
Barry Pinarello: Point taken, Dave, but we're really keen to start selling more of the disc version so this is the model we're supplying.
Dave Brailsford: Come on, Barry, I have to put the needs of my boys first. Help a brother out.
Barry Pinarello: Out of my hands, Dave - our marketing guys would kill me. It's bad enough having the fellas from accounts constantly bending my ear about marginal gains...


----------



## Milkfloat (4 Dec 2015)

Add to that different rotor sizes and it gets very complicated indeed.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (4 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Add to that different rotor sizes and it gets very complicated indeed.


A race lost due to shimano/mavic/zipp service only having 180mm fronts with R.A.T and you're on 160mm with QR's

Just won't work


----------



## oldroadman (4 Dec 2015)

Anything that slows wheel changes, one standard or not, will be a massive downside for a team. With a rear change allowing for slowing and restarting about 40-50 seconds is lost. Start messing about with other systems, a change takes longer, longer chase back, more tailgating, more people off the back riding back on, lets hope that it all settles down. For me, the whole thing is simple, like many "improvements", it's simply a matter of someone deciding they need to sell stuff. Not a good sporting reason to change anything. As for the weight limit, it could drop to 6.5kg easily without loss of durability, I guess. Then I have seen some of these sub 5kg bikes and there are some quite frail looking components, so I think a slow and steady approach is best. the biggest weight saver being carbon frames and accessories.


----------



## Citius (5 Dec 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Anything that slows wheel changes, one standard or not, will be a massive downside for a team



Not if the same issue applies to every team though - then it becomes the same for everyone. If everyone is on disks with a standard rotor size and a standard axle size, then everyone is in the same boat. So what if wheel changes become slower? - the important thing from a competition aspect is that they become slower for everyone, so nobody has an advantage.


----------



## lyn1 (5 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Not if the same issue applies to every team though - then it becomes the same for everyone. If everyone is on disks with a standard rotor size and a standard axle size, then everyone is in the same boat. *So what if wheel changes become slower? *- the important thing from a competition aspect is that they become slower for everyone, so nobody has an advantage.



Depends how much slower. If they get too long they change the race dynamic. Depending on the point in the race and Comms attitudes to the use of team cars, it can be difficult to get back to where you were after a puncture. Longer changes would just make it more likely that a puncture would effectively take someone out of the race.


----------



## Citius (5 Dec 2015)

lyn1 said:


> Depends how much slower. If they get too long they change the race dynamic. Depending on the point in the race and Comms attitudes to the use of team cars, it can be difficult to get back to where you were after a puncture. Longer changes would just make it more likely that a puncture would effectively take someone out of the race.



We're talking seconds here - not minutes. The race dynamic would not change any more than it would if the mechanic had fcked up a wheel change on calipers. Just ask CadelEvans in the 2009 Vuelta....


----------



## Crackle (5 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Not if the same issue applies to every team though - then it becomes the same for everyone. If everyone is on disks with a standard rotor size and a standard axle size, then everyone is in the same boat. So what if wheel changes become slower? - the important thing from a competition aspect is that they become slower for everyone, so nobody has an advantage.


It's not equivalent. This isn't formula one where everybody does a wheel change, however I wait to see if it is actually any kind of issue greater than the team car not being in the right place or similar. I'm not sure putting my thru axle wheel on my mtn bike is actually slower than a qr on my road bike, it's just the fiddle is slightly different.


----------



## Citius (5 Dec 2015)

Crackle said:


> It's not equivalent. This isn't formula one where everybody does a wheel change, however I wait to see if it is actually any kind of issue greater than the team car not being in the right place or similar. I'm not sure putting my thru axle wheel on my mtn bike is actually slower than a qr on my road bike, it's just the fiddle is slightly different.



Not really sure what your point is - same as mine, I think. No idea why you are mentioning F1.

Anyway, of course it's going to be a bit slower - but assuming the UCI gets the rule changes right, it will be the same for everyone.


----------



## oldroadman (5 Dec 2015)

The point about possible race dynamic changes is correct - just suppose a change with 10km to go, the race flying. With a quick change and 40 seconds lost, it's just about possible to get back with 2-3km to go. Alter that to a minute and it won't happen unless a bottle is sticky enough (or even "do a Nibali") to court a DQ. It may be the same for everyone, and the same everyone will show the same mercy as today when the race is "on" - zero. Commissaires in major races (not your local race when decisions can be variable!), I found are generally relaxed until 60-90 minutes to go about tailgating, but jump all over holding on to cars, and DQ every time they catch someone. Inside the last hour+ it all gets a bit tighter as that's when it counts. Thus the same for everybody is true, and races may be lost when they may not have been.
Counting on UCI to change rules - which ones and why?


----------



## Citius (5 Dec 2015)

oldroadman said:


> Counting on UCI to change rules - which ones and why?



Rules which will normalise disks in the pro peloton and ensure that everyone is on the same standard. Which will probably involve the effective banning/discontinuing the use of calipers.


----------



## Pedrosanchezo (5 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Rules which will normalise disks in the pro peloton and ensure that everyone is on the same standard. Which will probably involve the effective banning/discontinuing the use of calipers.


In this decade? No. For the better of the sport? No. How many pro's complain about the braking of top line rim brakes? Unless they make disc brakes compulsory, not likely, then there will be a mix of both. I assume depending on how much their sponsor/s push it. Zilch to do with performance. Anyone who thinks disc brakes are similar weight needs to check again!


----------



## Citius (5 Dec 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Unless they make disc brakes compulsory, not likely,



That's exactly what I'm suggesting.


----------



## oldroadman (10 Dec 2015)

Wait for the outcry from certain quarters if BC decide not to allow/not allow them in UK races for a while yet. Remembering that there are some UK based Conti teams who might want to use disks in UCI races, then perhaps not be allowed in domestic events without proper rim brakes. I foresee some big headaches. There needs to be an announcement pronto on exactly what is and is not going to happen.
As has been said, for safety it probably needs to be all or nothing. Who is going to announce that everyone with rim braked bikes will have a useless machine from a certain point onwards? If it does not go that way, and mixing is allowed at amateur levels, watch insurance start creeping up. And all because of marketing! Not one pro/ex-pro I know has ever mentioned modern brakes are no good. It's just a demand created by companies who want to sell everyone more stuff for their own profit, and does nothing to make the sport better.


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (25 Jan 2016)

Nathan Haas appears to be blaming this on a disc brake. Twitter unconvinced.


----------



## Dogtrousers (25 Jan 2016)

Thanks for that pic @Flick of the Elbow I nearly lost my breakfast.


----------



## Citius (25 Jan 2016)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> Nathan Haas appears to be blaming this on a disc brake. Twitter unconvinced.



Attacked by a bear, more like...


----------



## oldroadman (25 Jan 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Wait for the outcry from certain quarters if BC decide not to allow/not allow them in UK races for a while yet. Remembering that there are some UK based Conti teams who might want to use disks in UCI races, then perhaps not be allowed in domestic events without proper rim brakes. I foresee some big headaches. There needs to be an announcement pronto on exactly what is and is not going to happen.
> As has been said, for safety it probably needs to be all or nothing. Who is going to announce that everyone with rim braked bikes will have a useless machine from a certain point onwards? If it does not go that way, and mixing is allowed at amateur levels, watch insurance start creeping up. And all because of marketing!* Not one pro/ex-pro I know has ever mentioned modern brakes are no good. It's just a demand created by companies who want to sell everyone more stuff for their own profit, and does nothing to make the sport better*.


A little bit like the original case made for hard shell helmets, they were "better" (for which read we want to sell stuff!)....stands back and awaits tirades.


----------



## User169 (12 Apr 2016)

P-R disk brake injury.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ven...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Apr 2016)

DP said:


> P-R disk brake injury.
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ven...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


No pics of a blood covered disc to back any of this translated article up.

I read another version where it was "reported" to have been caused by a disc brake but not confirmed.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

So no one has ever reported gashes or injuries due to cassettes, mechs, chainrings etc etc......but they report them for discs. Strange that isn't it


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

i wonder of they will report injuries due to road surface, bikes, team cars etc etc ................i'm guessing a lot more have had injuries due to those issues, than they have to discs


----------



## User169 (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> So no one has ever reported gashes or injuries due to cassettes, mechs, chainrings etc etc......but they report them for discs. Strange that isn't it



Not really surprising at all. It's a pilot where one variable has changed, so it's inevitable that's going to be the focus of reporting.


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> i wonder of they will report injuries due to road surface, bikes, team cars etc etc


They do.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> They do.


Must have missed those then.......


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Must have missed those then.......


Maybe you don't follow it as closely as some people do.
Did you miss all the coverage about accidents due to road furniture, moto bikes, team cars, dogs, wheel failures?


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

Someone was blaming motorbike oil on the cobbles knocking Cancellara off - nope it was the bloody big patch of mud.

I personally don't think discs will make much difference. Rim brakes can stop a road bike quicker than the laws of physics can stop you going over the bars, even lowly Shimano long drop ones with good pads.


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

You race, crashes happen, and sore loser will moan.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Maybe you don't follow it as closely as some people do.
> Did you miss all the coverage about accidents due to road furniture, moto bikes, team cars, dogs, wheel failures?


I dont see them being reported in the same way as this disc one..........


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> I dont see them being reported in the same way as this disc one..........


Well they are on cycling news, and the moto support and camera bike issue is liable to cause a change in procedures


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Well they are on cycling news, and the moto support and camera bike issue is liable to cause a change in procedures


Im talking more about injuries due to crashes........im pretty sure a large 53t chainring will do a lot more damage than a disc inboard of the frame. They just bitching cause its new tech and trying to make a bigger story out of it that what needs to be made


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

Disc or not, it's a nasty injury. Only a couple of weeks ago a female pro had an organ removed due to a crash - that was reported the same.


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

Chain rings generally have the chain on it. The issue is that the discs have very sharp edges and in crashes, you land on wheels and the 160mm rotor is a damn sight bigger than a cassette. Maybe have a rotor with a rounded edge ?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Im talking more about injuries due to crashes........im pretty sure a large 53t chainring will do a lot more damage than a disc inboard of the frame. They just bitching cause its new tech and trying to make a bigger story out of it that what needs to be made


I think you are attaching more to it than most everyone else here; it's reportable, there is no "bitching". Much more coverage has been given to many other incidents over the past few weeks than this one, in fact had you not kept going on about it then it would have remained a "oh look, someone got injured" moment for me. Within all the other stories and happenings it's a minor event in relative terms.


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Must have missed those then.......





jowwy said:


> I dont see them being reported in the same way as this disc one..........


Just wondering if you missed them or saw them reported in a different way?


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

The Moto riders are the issue. My daughter was watching Roubaix with me and was shocked when I said a rider had been killed by a motorbike in a race. 
You see some stupid stuff.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> I think you are attaching more to it than most everyone else here; it's reportable, there is no "bitching". Much more coverage has been given to many other incidents over the past few weeks than this one, in fact had you not kept going on about it then it would have remained a "oh look, someone got injured" moment for me. Within all the other stories and happenings it's a minor event in relative terms.


Think i made one comment and then rich p quoted it and i replied.....maybe i should just ignore people hey


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Think i made one comment and then rich p quoted it and i replied.....maybe i should just ignore people hey


Maybe you need to be open to differing views. And not make sweeping statements. And be accurate.


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Think i made one comment and then rich p quoted it and i replied.....maybe i should just ignore people hey


...or just argue your case and we can agree to disagree like adults. No need to take offence at peoples' different perspective.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> ...or just argue your case and we can agree to disagree like adults. No need to take offence at peoples' different perspective.


No offence was taken........


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

Pro's will moan about stuff, you aren't going to hit the road in a big bunch without injury. Someone could have argued that Campag Delta brakes were so much worse than other brakes as they were dangerous - they were crap, but beautiful, in the late 80's/90's but we didn't have social media hyping stuff.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Maybe you need to be open to differing views. And not make sweeping statements. And be accurate.


What differing views are they.......cant see any posts offering a different view to be honest. Only people quoting my post and saying other injurie have been reported.


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

I remember when aero profiled bladed spokes were complained about.....


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> What differing views are they.......cant see any posts offering a different view to be honest. Only people quoting my post and saying other injurie have been reported.


You can't see the differing views either?


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Must have missed those then.......


Well, you began by saying that you missed other injuries being reported at all.
Then a few disagreed and offered a different view.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> You can't see the differing views either?


How about we agree to disagree and you can go yank somone else's chain.....not in the mood for petty squabling on a forum


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Well, you began by saying that you missed other injuries being reported at all.
> Then a few disagreed and offered a different view.


A few.......you and marmion.......the pro race professionals who know more than others. Go yank someone elses chain if you want to petty squable on a forum


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

It's only Monday folks.....


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Apr 2016)

Still no actual proof a brake disc caused the injury


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> It's only Monday folks.....


Tuesday in my house lol


----------



## rich p (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> A few.......you and marmion.......the pro race professionals who know more than others. Go yank someone elses chain if you want to petty squable on a forum


I thought we were having a sensible discussion about injury reporting but hey ho.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Still no actual proof a brake disc caused the injury


None what so ever......they dont even know if the direct energie rider was even involved in the crash, he just happened to be near by


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> How about we agree to disagree and you can go yank somone else's chain.....not in the mood for petty squabling on a forum


There's nothing to disagree on, your claims are wrong. I'm not "yanking anyone's chain", nor am I engaging in "petty squabbling" - I disagreed with what you posted. Because it was inaccurate. And I provided a contextual response in that the incident would have passed me by as an aside but for you questioning whether other incidents would be reported in a similar manner, which they are (and even more so). And then for you to say that maybe you should ignore people...not really me who's the one who thinks there is a squabble is it?


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Tuesday in my house lol



Whoops, you can tell I'm still off sick... What month, Feb ?


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> Whoops, you can tell I'm still off sick... What month, Feb ?


July dude, Tour De France has just started


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> Whoops, you can tell I'm still off sick... What month, Feb ?


I do believe its may


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> I do believe its may



No, the weather says Feb !!!


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> No, the weather says Feb !!!


Very true.....especially with snow forecast in the valleys of south wales for the weekend


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Very true.....especially with snow forecast in the valleys of south wales for the weekend



Apparently disc brakes freeze solid in zero temps and carbon frames shatter ! Hmm, I'll stick with my Penny Farthing.


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> Apparently disc brakes freeze solid in zero temps and carbon frames shatter ! Hmm, I'll stick with my Penny Farthing.


Time to pull out the balance bike.........


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Time to pull out the balance bike.........



You do know when the Zombie War comes, only old skool steel bikes will work. I'll be OK !!


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> You do know when the Zombie War comes, only old skool steel bikes will work. I'll be OK !!


Hmmmmm goes off to look at old skool steelies...........


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> It's only Monday folks.....


Is the start of the week off limits for highlighting people are wrong and offering alternate views? 

A convenient diversion for @jowwy after yet again alleging people who disagree are "yanking chains".


----------



## jowwy (12 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Is the start of the week off limits for highlighting people are wrong and offering alternate views?
> 
> A convenient diversion for @jowwy after yet again alleging people who disagree are "yanking chains".


Nope.....its just a dont really care. Now let it lie will you.....agree, disagree, yank chains...do what you like im not really bothered. 

I gave my opinion, you gave yours.............now go back to sleep another poster will be along soon for you


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Nope.....its just a dont really care. Now let it lie will you.....agree, disagree, yank chains...do what you like im not really bothered.
> 
> I gave my opinion, you gave yours.............now go back to sleep another poster will be along soon for you


You gave your opinion, it was incorrect. You seem to care enough to make disparaging comments. You seem to have got yourself into a corner. Do you "not care" enough to leave it? You were wrong.


----------



## fossyant (12 Apr 2016)

Keep it on thread please


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (12 Apr 2016)

fossyant said:


> Keep it on thread please


You mean the thread I started? Which has been derailed by inaccuracies? And by disparaging comments?

No problem. For me anyway.


----------



## BalkanExpress (13 Apr 2016)

https://www.facebook.com/fran.ventoso.9/posts/10156809619355611

Fran Ventoso's open letter on the subject. English text beneath the Spanish, nasty pictures at the bottom.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

BalkanExpress said:


> ...nasty pictures at the bottom.



Holy crap


----------



## 400bhp (13 Apr 2016)

Suspended

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...acebook&utm_medium=Social#KfjOHdBjUQK8J1uG.99

I'm sick of hearing about a product that is completely unnecessary for road bikes, so I'm not sorry about this.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

400bhp said:


> Suspended


A clear example of the UCI "bitching" and "yanking chains" if ever there was one...


----------



## User169 (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> A clear example of the UCI "bitching" and "yanking chains" if ever there was one...



I think they only did it to annoy Jowwy.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

DP said:


> I think they only did it to annoy Jowwy.


@jowwy's worst nightmare


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Please can some one explain to me how the outside of your left leg, can come into contact with a disc. Thats on the left side of the bike......without anyone falling to the floor??? In his words he only bumped into the back of his bike and no one fell

Even if he straddled the rear of the bike....the disc would be on the inside of his left leg, not the outside


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Please can some one explain to me...


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


>


So basically you have no clue....

And even lampre marida have questioned the legitamacey of the claim


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Please can some one explain to me...


Or, more helpfully, maybe try this:
http://www.uci.ch/contact/


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> So basically you have no clue....




You have shown yourself to be a 

You're persistent, I'll give you that. When did you give up golf in favour of cycling?


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> You have shown yourself to be a
> 
> You're persistent, I'll give you that. When did you give up golf in favour of cycling?


Maybe you need to engage brain and think for yourself, rather than being a typical media sheep......and have a little think and read his actual statement of events. 

Yes they have suspended temporary use of discs while an investigation takes place, something that doesnt surprise me.......but dont be a complete tool and read the statement and then look at the pictures......


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> You have shown yourself to be a
> 
> You're persistent, I'll give you that. When did you give up golf in favour of cycling?


Oh and well done on the adult post......


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Oh and well done on the adult post......




I think the yoof call that "pwned"


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> I think the yoof call that "pwned"


Even youths can spell and act more grown up than some of you lot........


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Even youths can spell and act more grown up than some of you lot........


Sing along

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Sing along
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU



Your the one that dragged my name back into the thread media sheep............next you'll be saying david caeron is a nice guy and didnt mean to fiddle the tax man


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Your the one that dragged my name back into the thread...


I only thought it fair to tag you, rather than making comments "behind your back" as it were.

What was your golf handicap before you moved to those pesky 15.4 mile TTs?


----------



## jowwy (13 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> I only thought it fair to tag you, rather than making comments "behind your back" as it were.
> 
> What was your golf handicap before you moved to those pesky 15.4 mile TTs?


Single figures.....just like the number of your brain cells


----------



## oldroadman (13 Apr 2016)

I had hoped that this serious matter was being discussed without resort to silly insults. Silly people, both of you.
I could not see what the purpose of introducing discs was, except for commercial reasons, selling a "must have new" device to the easily convinced. Now a serious injury. I'll agree that for CX and MTB, commuting and general riding, they are OK and in some cases better than a mud clogged calliper. But none of these uses has anywhere from 60 to 200 riders close packed at speed. Disc and calliper mixed in a race is a recipe for disaster. The lawyers would have a field day when the inevitable life changing incident happens "how could this be allowed", etc. So for the sake of today's riders at all levels of road races, I hope the ruling against discs sticks.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Single figures.....just like the number of your brain cells


I had hoped my previous Disney link would have cheered you up.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (13 Apr 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Silly people, both of you.


I am cut to the core.


----------



## 400bhp (13 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Even youths can spell ....



Ahem....



> So basically you have no clue....
> 
> And even lampre marida have questioned the legitamacey of the claim


----------



## rich p (13 Apr 2016)

Well that all went well then...


----------



## h0lly1991 (14 Apr 2016)

All getting very aggressive this.....
At the end of the day disc brakes are here, if they are to be included in the pro road ranks who cares.
@jowwy likes them and from his comments has them on his bikes. @Marmion you don't like them and that's your choice.
Personally they have there place that's on mtb. In all my commuting and general riding I've never ever had a problem with regular style calliper brakes. I do however understand some people's dynamics mean discs help you stop when a caliper brake might be a bit slower to stop the built up kinetic energy caused by the forward motion.
I'm sure if you asked at your cycling clubs for a straw poll on discs views would differ,unless of course the committee were to be too scared of you and your question.

Enjoy your riding...


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Apr 2016)

h0lly1991 said:


> @Marmion you don't like them and that's your choice.


I don't like people making inaccurate statements. And golfers, I don't like them either. When both combine I lose all sense of perspective


----------



## Fab Foodie (14 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Well that all went well then...


And nobody's even mentioned that Campagnolo is better than Shimano yet ....


----------



## Banjo (14 Apr 2016)

Cant be arsed to read whole thread now but cant the sharp edges on the discs be rounded off to remove the sharp edge?
The pad grips the flat sides not the edge.


----------



## h0lly1991 (14 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> I don't like people making inaccurate statements. And golfers, I don't like them either. When both combine I lose all sense of perspective



What if the person is an expert in both fields?


----------



## rich p (14 Apr 2016)

h0lly1991 said:


> At the end of the day disc brakes are here, if they are to be included in the pro road ranks *who cares*.


Lots apparently do...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-road-disc-brakes-in-races-after-ventoso-injury/

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-road-disc-brakes-in-races-after-ventoso-injury/


----------



## h0lly1991 (14 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Lots apparently do...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-road-disc-brakes-in-races-after-ventoso-injury/
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-suspends-road-disc-brakes-in-races-after-ventoso-injury/


It's not that I don't care about the injuries, I don't see why the pros need them, for ages they have been against them but they've had to suffer injuries to be heard by the uci.
And don't care for the "my idea is better than yours" argument where people loose all form of understanding. 
Golf anyone?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Apr 2016)

h0lly1991 said:


> What if the person is an expert in both fields?


Even I know it's called a golf course not a golf field.


----------



## roadrash (14 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Even I know it's called a golf course not a golf field.



next you will be trying to convince us that they use clubs as opposed to golf bats


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Apr 2016)

h0lly1991 said:


> It's not that I don't care about the injuries, _*I don't see why the pros need them*_, for ages they have been against them but they've had to suffer injuries to be heard by the uci.
> And don't care for the "my idea is better than yours" argument where people loose all form of understanding.
> Golf anyone?


The pros need them because the industry wants to sell them, and wants the pros to showcase them, and the pros need the industry.


----------



## John the Monkey (14 Apr 2016)

roadrash said:


> next you will be trying to convince us that they use clubs as opposed to golf bats


Golf rackets.

Honestly, you people. It's like you've not even been on a Golf Squad.


----------



## Crackle (14 Apr 2016)

The UCI has been given free reign over rule making, thus we are in this situation, deep in the bunker of discussion and needing a good wedge shot out......


----------



## John the Monkey (14 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> The UCI has been given free reign over rule making, thus we are in this situation, deep in the bunker of discussion and needing a good wedge shot out......


Hopefully the UCI and the teams can *iron* out their differences, perhaps over a nice cup of *tee*.


----------



## Apollonius (14 Apr 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> The pros need them because the industry wants to sell them, and wants the pros to showcase them, and the pros need the industry.



Absolutely. The pros do not need disc brakes as they know very well that their braking performance is down to the tyres. People that do need disc brakes are commuters who want reliable braking in all weathers. 
The problem is, and I am totally one of them, bike buyers are influenced by what the racers use. I freely admit that I was thrilled to see Sep Vanmarcke riding so well in Paris Roubaix on a bike the same as I ride (yes, his gearing was a bit different!). The racers are moving adverts for the bikes. 
The industry would love to sell us nice new bikes with disc brakes and get us to throw away all our sad old ones with rim brakes. This isn't going to happen unless the racers start winning with them. It is no surprise that Merida - a very big bike manufacturer - was showing off their disc bikes on Sunday. 

After 150 years or so of honed refinement, the Darwinian nature of racing bikes means that there is not a gram of unnecessary weight on a race bike. Watch racers throwing away empty bottles at the foot of a climb - 20 grams maybe? The Infinito CV ridden by Vanmarcke on Sunday exists in a disc version. It is one and a half kilos heavier than the rim brake version. Yes, I know that disc brake bikes can be got down to weight, but racers will see that as unnecessary and potentially dangerous weight. 
Hence the dilemma. Pro racing exists to sell (amongst other things) bikes. Yet, the racers do not want to sell what they see as worse bikes.


----------



## John the Monkey (14 Apr 2016)

Apollonius said:


> After 150 years or so of honed refinement, the Darwinian nature of racing bikes means that there is not a gram of unnecessary weight on a race bike. Watch racers throwing away empty bottles at the foot of a climb - 20 grams maybe? The Infinito CV ridden by Vanmarcke on Sunday exists in a disc version. It is one and a half kilos heavier than the rim brake version. Yes, I know that disc brake bikes can be got down to weight, but racers will see that as unnecessary and potentially dangerous weight.


RE: Unnecessary weight - ISTR reading that that's not entirely true - manufacturers can make bikes that come in under the UCI wieght limit, and so, paradoxically, perhaps, have to have weight added to them to pass muster. The article I read on the subject suggested that that explained, in part, the rise of the aero road bike, as manufacturers could add the material needed to form aerodynamic shapes without worrying about giving away their weight advantage to competitors.


----------



## StuAff (14 Apr 2016)

The weight is a non-issue these days. If and when the weight limit imposed by the UCI is lowered, that'll be a different matter.


----------



## jowwy (14 Apr 2016)

ettix quickstep team and rider distance themselves from the argument over disc's causing his injury, because he does not know how it happened or what caused it.......so back too one reported injury that at the moment makes no sense due to were the injury is sustained on the riders body


----------



## Dogtrousers (14 Apr 2016)

I think that one thing we can conclude is that there is probably no (or not much) competitive advantage to be had from disks. If there was, then the teams would be clamouring to use them. But in general the reaction from the teams and riders seems to be floating around somewhere between vague interest and outright hostility. I'm happy to be corrected me on this, but for most innovations where racing led the way there was a racing advantage (tri bars, lightweight everything, deep section rims, brifters, clipless pedals, pointy hats).

Maybe a really good descender could eke out a second or two on a big twisty descent in rainy conditions?

In CX racing, I'd guess there is a competitive advantage, with all that mud getting stuck under callipers.


----------



## Berk on a Bike (14 Apr 2016)

DP said:


> I think they only did it to annoy Jowwy.


Proof!


----------



## John the Monkey (14 Apr 2016)

Berk on a Bike said:


> Proof!
> View attachment 124786


/DRAMATIC MUSIC


----------



## MikeW-71 (14 Apr 2016)

Banjo said:


> Cant be arsed to read whole thread now but cant the sharp edges on the discs be rounded off to remove the sharp edge?
> The pad grips the flat sides not the edge.


The edges are already rounded. I have 3 bikes with discs now and none of their discs have sharp edges.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Apr 2016)

What does Eddy think?
“They work for [consumers], but in racing I think they’re too dangerous in crashes,” Merckx said.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...s-dangerous-racing_402468#Zehht8xGJVSTUITC.99

He also has views on burritos in the pro peloton


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Apr 2016)

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/186146-have-disc-brakes-really-led-injuries-peloton


So basically, none of the riders riding with discs(Lampre-Merida or Direct Energie), crashed or were even in the area when Maes and/or Ventoso's injuries occured.


----------



## jowwy (14 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> http://road.cc/content/tech-news/186146-have-disc-brakes-really-led-injuries-peloton
> 
> 
> So basically, none of the riders riding with discs(Lampre-Merida or Roompot), crashed or were even in the area when Maes and/or Ventoso's injuries occured.


Roompot wasnt using disc it was direct energie.....

But i made this same statement further up thread, questioning the injury. 

And forum experts marmion and rich p levelled abuse at me for thinking the same as road cc........goes to show that the not as clever as they think


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (14 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> Roompot wasnt using disc it was direct energie.....
> 
> But i made this same statement further up thread, questioning the injury.
> 
> And forum experts marmion and rich p levelled abuse at me for thinking the same as road cc........goes to show that the not as clever as they think


Edited  I was sidetracked


----------



## jowwy (14 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Edited  I was sidetracked


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> And forum experts marmion and rich p levelled abuse at me for thinking the same as road cc........goes to show that the not as clever as they think



You are wrong (yet again) - I picked you up for claiming that the disc brake injury/non-injury was being reported in a manner that other incidents were not. 

If you took the time to read my replies then you'd see that I have not offered an opinion regarding whether I think the injuries were caused by a disc brake nor have I offered a view on any decisions taken regarding the suspension of the disc brake trial.

I picked you up for being wrong. You got all flouncey and started on about "yanking chains" etc. I have mentioned this already a few pages ago.


----------



## rich p (14 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> You are wrong (yet again) - I picked you up for claiming that the disc brake injury/non-injury was being reported in a manner that other incidents were not.
> 
> If you took the time to read my replies then you'd see that I have not offered an opinion regarding whether I think the injuries were caused by a disc brake nor have I offered a view on any decisions taken regarding the suspension of the disc brake trial.
> 
> I picked you up for being wrong. You got all flouncey and started on about "yanking chains" etc. I have mentioned this already a few pages ago.


Ditto.
I have no idea, and no expert opinion, as to whether the injuries were caused by discs. I don't know enough about discs to know if they are a boon or a menace.
My disagreement with you originally, was that you said that the disc brake injury was reported, whereas others weren't.
Go back and check before you start getting in a lather again


----------



## rich p (14 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> rich p levelled abuse at me


p.s. I think you should report the abusive posts I've made
Perhaps you could repost them for me?


----------



## Proto (14 Apr 2016)

Is t beyond the wit of man to fabricate some kind of guard /shield to cover the discs outer edge?


----------



## 400bhp (14 Apr 2016)

Proto said:


> Is t beyond the wit of man to fabricate some kind of guard /shield to cover the discs outer edge?



But then they wouldn't be aero innit


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (14 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> p.s. I think you should report the abusive posts I've made
> Perhaps you could repost them for me?


Here you, chappy. Pipe down. Fore!!!!


----------



## CaadX (14 Apr 2016)

Can I just second Rich Ps' point that he has no idea !


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2016)

Proto said:


> Is t beyond the wit of man to fabricate some kind of guard /shield to cover the discs outer edge?


https://goo.gl/photos/q774UhrXAWUTMikp9


----------



## Racing roadkill (15 Apr 2016)

So the UCI have seen sense and banned disc brakes in the pro Peloton then.

*Mod Note*; posts from this point on have been merged in from a separate thread - hopefully not too confusing as there was not much overlap, but the ban is a natural continuation of the discussion of the trial.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> So the UCI have seen sense and banned disc brakes in the pro Peloton then.


Why do you think it makes sense to ban them? Have they given reasons?


----------



## jonny jeez (15 Apr 2016)

Surely universal use makes sense. Granted it would be mad to have limited use.

Sounds like the death of discs on road frames then. I was expecting them to replace calipers as soon as the pros started to wear them.

I'm actually a bit pleased.


----------



## Racing roadkill (15 Apr 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Why do you think it makes sense to ban them? Have they given reasons?


There's an article in cycling weekly, they have made the shout because of the injuries caused in the Paris Roubaix pile up, particularly Fran Ventoso's injury.


----------



## Racing roadkill (15 Apr 2016)

jonny jeez said:


> Surely universal use makes sense. Granted it would be mad to have limited use.
> 
> Sounds like the death of discs on road frames then. I was expecting them to replace calipers as soon as the pros started to wear them.
> 
> I'm actually a bit pleased.



I tried a road bike with disc brakes, earlier this year. I found there was a difference in the feel of the bike, if you leaned against the side with the disc on it, which I've not experienced on a MTB / hybrid. Also, people who are riding too close to you, get a scare, if you have to brake suddenly.. I'm glad we won't be seeing the proliferation of disc brakes on road frames.


----------



## Sharky (15 Apr 2016)

I'm a bit pleased as well.


----------



## jowwy (15 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> I tried a road bike with disc brakes, earlier this year. I found there was a difference in the feel of the bike, if you leaned against the side with the disc on it, which I've not experienced on a MTB / hybrid. Also, people who are riding too close to you, get a scare, if you have to brake suddenly.. I'm glad we won't be seeing the proliferation of disc brakes on road frames.


even though bikes like giant, specialized, canyon, rose, merida, ritchey, look, pinarello....and to name a few others all have disc brake road frames availlable

and why would people get a scare when riding next to you??

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/186146-have-disc-brakes-really-led-injuries-peloton


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> There's an article in cycling weekly, they have made the shout because of the injuries caused in the Paris Roubaix pile up, particularly Fran Ventoso's injury.


Injuries from the disc in the crash?


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> I tried a road bike with disc brakes, earlier this year. I found there was a difference in the feel of the bike, if you leaned against the side with the disc on it, which I've not experienced on a MTB / hybrid. Also, people who are riding too close to you, get a scare, if you have to brake suddenly.. I'm glad we won't be seeing the proliferation of disc brakes on road frames.



What difference in feel when you leaned how? I don't understand. Also, I understand why people get scared if you brake suddenly, especially if they're wheelsucking at the time in a peloton but then, you shouldn't just be braking suddenly. Besides, what has this got to do with discs. With calipers you also freak out when someone brakes for the hell of it. Besides, the fear and panic in the peloton is spread by squealing brakes, which will certainly increase with discs.


----------



## Racing roadkill (15 Apr 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Injuries from the disc in the crash?


I believe that the docs think that the gash on his leg was caused by the rotor on someone's bike.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> I believe that the docs think that the gash on his leg was caused by the rotor on someone's bike.


I see. A bit of forensics could confirm that. However, if the disc is there, sooner or later it will cause some sort of injury. It is one of those risks that needs to be weighed up, I suppose.


----------



## Andrew_P (15 Apr 2016)

Suspends and banned are two different meanings have they released a news item that they have moved form suspended testing and are now banned?


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (15 Apr 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Injuries from the disc in the crash?


He believes so - http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/ventoso-open-letter-disc-brakes-220870
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...injured-disc-brake-paris-roubaix-crash-220593


----------



## John the Monkey (15 Apr 2016)

Most sources seem to say "Suspends", with only the Times' headline saying "Bans" (can't read further because of the paywall).

CX (because those innovations tend to feed into touring, and I'm not a big fan of the other options for drop bar braking) is where I'd be disappointed, personally - once I got decent calipers on my road bike, I've always found them to be good enough.


----------



## Bollo (15 Apr 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I see. A bit of forensics could confirm that. However, if the disc is there, sooner or later it will cause some sort of injury. It is one of those risks that needs to be weighed up, I suppose.


The link that @jowwy posted on road.cc does a bit of digging and comes out extremely skeptical. Worth a read.


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> He believes so - http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/ventoso-open-letter-disc-brakes-220870
> http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news...injured-disc-brake-paris-roubaix-crash-220593


Thanks for the link. Obviously disc injuries are plausible and I think it is important for the riders themselves to influence the rules on these things. It reminds me of F1 in Nikki Lauda's days when safety was not in the interest of the drivers.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2016)

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/186146-have-disc-brakes-really-led-injuries-peloton


----------



## jowwy (15 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> http://road.cc/content/tech-news/186146-have-disc-brakes-really-led-injuries-peloton


i added the same link a little bit further up thread


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Apr 2016)

jowwy said:


> i added the same link a little bit further up thread


Thread merge


----------



## Yellow Saddle (15 Apr 2016)

Who knows whether that accident caused that wound as described by that rider. I don't. But I can foresee that a disc can cause injuries. What troubles me is the misunderstanding that discs can stop quicker and therefore cause pile-ups. In the pile-up in question you can see that the riders have meters to stop or crash and nothing can stop you in meters. Such a stop would pull your eyeballs from their sockets, required G-forces probably in the region of 35 or 40. Bikes overturn at 0.6Gs. Reaction time alone is slower than the distance allows, nevermind braking after seeing the pile-up.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (15 Apr 2016)

rich p said:


> Ditto.



I guess I missed the post apologising for making false statements?


----------



## Apollonius (16 Apr 2016)

Here is the Times piece from last Thursday. Seems fair and balanced to me.
cycling

*Horror injury forces UCI to ban disc brakes*
*Josh Burrows*
April 14 2016, 5:00pm, The Times






Riders have said that disc brakes are effectively blades being carried in the professional pelotonKENZO TRIBOUILLARD/Getty Images
SharefacebooktwittergooglePlus
Save
A gory injury suffered by a rider during Paris-Roubaix last Sunday has forced the UCI to halt its trial of disc brakes in the professional peloton.

Fran Ventoso, the Movistar rider, was taken to hospital during the race with a deep gash to his leg that he claims was caused by crashing into a bike equipped with disc brakes - technology which use a separate metal rotor to provide a braking surface, rather than using the rim of the wheel itself.

Although there have been doubts about whether Ventoso’s wound was caused specifically by a disc brake, in an open letter to the UCI, he wrote: “Was there really anyone who thought things like Sunday’s wouldn’t happen? Really nobody thought they [disc brakes] were dangerous? Nobody realised they can cut, they can become giant knives?”

He added: “I’ve been lucky: I didn’t get my leg chopped off, it’s just some muscle and skin. But can you imagine that disk cutting a jugular or a femoral artery? I would prefer not to.”

Ventoso was supported by riders from other teams who complained that the UCI had sanctioned disc brakes while ignoring concerns about using technology developed for mountain-biking to a road-racing environment, where cyclists ride in close proximity. Equipment manufacturers are keen to use the professional peloton to advertise the technology, which requires consumers to buy an entire new frame.

Luke Rowe, the British rider on Team Sky, tweeted today [Thursday]: “Disc brakes - no need for them. Your wheels (tyres) will slide out before your brakes fail you anyway! Keep them away from the peloton!”

Adam Blythe, who rides for Tinkoff, added: “The one thing disk brakes are doing in the peloton is making it more dangerous. We don’t need them!”


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (16 Apr 2016)

meh


----------



## Apollonius (16 Apr 2016)

Most of the article is quoting professional riders. It is presumably a fair reflection of their views.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (16 Apr 2016)

Their views would make sense if there was a proven incident of disc brake faulted carnage in the pro peloton, or in fact any peloton.

Luke Rowe appears to have forgot that a moto rear ended his team mate, a disc braked moto


----------



## Apollonius (16 Apr 2016)

So, it is the views of the professionals quoted that you are describing as "feces".


----------



## 400bhp (16 Apr 2016)

[


Apollonius said:


> So, it is the views of the professionals quoted that you are describing as "feces".



Well, we all know more here than the pro's


----------



## Andrew_P (16 Apr 2016)

Thought of this thread when I saw this.


----------



## smutchin (16 Apr 2016)

Apollonius said:


> Most of the article is quoting professional riders. It is presumably a fair reflection of their views.



The article is sensationalist nonsense. They've quoted a grand total of three riders. Ventoso's claim that he could have lost a leg is hysterical exaggeration. Adam Blythe's comments are unsubstantiated. Luke Rowe makes a very reasonable point about whether or not disc brakes are necessary but he doesn't suggest that disc brakes were responsible for Ventoso's injuries so his words don't support the headline.

Did the reporter ask anyone from the UCI for a quote? Where's the balance? Shoddy journalism.

The UCI have not been "forced" to "ban" anything; they made the sensible decision (of their own volition) to suspend the trial of disc brakes pending the investigation into Ventoso's crash.

If you want to argue that disc brakes aren't welcome in pro road racing, you can - as per Luke Rowe - make the case without resorting to unfounded claims about supposed dangers.


----------



## Racing roadkill (16 Apr 2016)

Disc brake debates are going to be the new helmet debates.


----------



## smutchin (16 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Luke Rowe appears to have forgot that a moto rear ended his team mate, a disc braked moto



I'd say that incident supports Rowe's comments - the moto appeared to lose traction on a slippery surface under heavy braking.


----------



## Apollonius (16 Apr 2016)

I still await the pro rider quoted saying something like "I can't wait to get disc brakes on my race bike. The performance advantage will speed me to the front of the pack I am sure." Until something like that comes along, I guess the views expressed might be seen as reasonably representative.


----------



## smutchin (16 Apr 2016)

Racing roadkill said:


> Disc brake debates are going to be the new helmet debates.



Yes, and in many ways, the reaction of the pros to the introduction of disc brakes is in many ways similar to their reaction to the introduction of mandatory helmet rules.

Unfortunately, the UCI doesn't have a great track record for listening to the opinions of the riders.


----------



## smutchin (16 Apr 2016)

Apollonius said:


> the views expressed might be seen as reasonably representative.



Yes, representative of the riders' preferences, not representative of an informed expert opinion on the safety of disc brakes. The Times piece is still nonsense even if the views quoted are sincerely held.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Apr 2016)

Velonews reporting that the French have banned disc brakes from all sanctioned events, including sportives.

No link as on my phone and no idea how to copy a link.


----------



## Dogtrousers (20 Apr 2016)

Marmion said:


> Velonews reporting that the French have banned disc brakes from all sanctioned events, including sportives.
> 
> No link as on my phone and no idea how to copy a link.


ici it is
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/the-french-say-non-to-disc-brakes_403092


----------



## Crackle (21 Apr 2016)

Dogtrousers said:


> ici it is
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/the-french-say-non-to-disc-brakes_403092


Even Sportives!


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Apr 2016)

Still no proof Ventosos injury was disc related, wonder how far this can be stretched out


----------



## 2IT (21 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> Even Sportives!


On a local group ride, there was one rider with disc brakes which I was leery of as I didn't want a severed leg or arm or my throat slit.

Asked him why he used disc brakes. He said that he had overcooked his carbon wheels going downhill so he switched to disc brakes. Makes sense.


----------



## smutchin (21 Apr 2016)

I rode a bike with disc brakes on last Sunday's club ride* and somehow managed to avoid slicing any of my clubmates' limbs off. Lucky escape!


*I wasn't planning to but when I got my intended bike out of the garage, it had a flat tyre and I was already running late so just grabbed the other bike instead.


----------



## Crackle (21 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Still no proof Ventosos injury was disc related, wonder how far this can be stretched out


Face it; your bike is now obsolete.


----------



## rich p (21 Apr 2016)

Have some people on here got shares in a Shimano disc factory?


----------



## jowwy (21 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Still no proof Ventosos injury was disc related, wonder how far this can be stretched out


He even lied about the ettix riders injuries in his statement.

Photo evidence on those injuries showed clearly no disc bike involved and knee sliced on damaged cobles.

Even lampre and direcr energie have raised the reliability of his statement


----------



## Dogtrousers (21 Apr 2016)

This is kind of interesting. I was doing a bit of searching around to see what exactly the FFC had said and I found this:

http://www.matosvelo.fr/index.php?p...es-sur-les-cyclosportives-et-competitions-ffc
_Ce communiqué précise que les organisateurs *ne seront pas couverts par leur assurance fédérale *dans le cas où un accident impliquerait un vélo avec freins à disques._

The key bit is that the organisers would not be covered by their "assurance fédérale" in the case of an accident involving a bike with disc brakes.

I'm not entirely sure what "assurance fédérale" is, I'm assuming it's some sort of insurance. So it seems that this may be an insurance issue. That is, the FFC are doing this to avoid possible legal action in future from someone who claims injury from a disc brake.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Apr 2016)

Crackle said:


> Face it; your bike is now obsolete.


All of my bikes are now obselete  I may have to take up golf


----------



## MiK1138 (21 Apr 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> All of my bikes are now obselete  I may have to take up golf


Ah but will you have Carbon Fibre or Steel clubs


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Apr 2016)

MiK1138 said:


> Ah but will you have Carbon Fibre or Steel clubs


Titanium


----------



## roadrash (21 Apr 2016)

And dont forget you will need some silly clothing....


----------



## MiK1138 (21 Apr 2016)

roadrash said:


> And dont forget you will need some silly clothing....


Its not Silly its "Activity Specific"


----------



## oldroadman (22 Apr 2016)

MiK1138 said:


> Its not Silly its "Activity Specific"


Would that be like the strange stuff one American golfer used to wear a few years back? Payne or something similar? Really bizarre kit, I can only suppose he was paid a lot by a manufacturer to use it so they could flog the stuff to other mugs?


----------



## jowwy (24 Apr 2016)

oldroadman said:


> Would that be like the strange stuff one American golfer used to wear a few years back? Payne or something similar? Really bizarre kit, I can only suppose he was paid a lot by a manufacturer to use it so they could flog the stuff to other mugs?


The late payne stewart was paid to wear clothing based on nfl teams his gear was not available for resale.....he was one of the best golfers in the world and died when his private jet crashed


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (2 May 2016)

And the disc brake trial is to re-commence in June:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...ial-in-the-professional-road-peloton-in-june/


----------



## Crackle (3 May 2016)

Marmion said:


> And the disc brake trial is to re-commence in June:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...ial-in-the-professional-road-peloton-in-june/


Inevitable really. Too much manufacturer momentum behind it and a ban based on a speculative account. Wonder if the Sportive ban will go too, probably not. So fugly discs back in the peloton, Netty will be pleased.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (3 May 2016)

Crackle said:


> Inevitable really. Too much manufacturer momentum behind it and a ban based on a speculative account. Wonder if the Sportive ban will go too, probably not. So fugly discs back in the peloton, Netty will be pleased.


Theres a race here where the entrants all receive a bag of potatoes + respective points for positon.

Disc brakes aren't really on the radar here as a big news story


----------



## Crackle (3 May 2016)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Theres a race here where the entrants all receive a bag of potatoes + respective points for positon.
> 
> Disc brakes aren't really on the radar here as a big news story


 I presume they don't race with the potatoes and the potatoes aren't King Eddy's


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Oct 2016)

They're back, and this time they are "dulled"
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/10/news/uci-will-test-dulled-disc-brakes-in-2017_422336


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (22 Oct 2016)

And Ventoso's view now?
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...eluctantly-welcomes-return-disc-brakes_423554


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (22 Oct 2016)

Marmion said:


> And Ventoso's view now?
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2016...eluctantly-welcomes-return-disc-brakes_423554


Sounds like a man who was caught talking bolleaux


----------



## rich p (24 Feb 2017)

Owen Doull maintains that his shoe was sliced through by Kittel's disc yesterday. Could have been a lot worse, if you accept the explanation.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dou...disc-brake-bike-almost-caused-serious-injury/


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Feb 2017)

Froome: _"If a hot blade like that cuts an artery then a rider could be in big trouble," _Froome told Cyclingnews._ "I hope that we don't get to that point before we stop and take stock."_
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-disc-brake-debate-shows-riders-are-not-being-heard/


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

rich p said:


> Owen Doull maintains that his shoe was sliced through by Kittel's disc yesterday. Could have been a lot worse, if you accept the explanation.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dou...disc-brake-bike-almost-caused-serious-injury/


Another disc unrelated injury.


----------



## Crackle (24 Feb 2017)

Another credible explanation for his cut is a spoke but I fear confirmation bias has set in.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

Crackle said:


> Another credible explanation for his cut is a spoke but I fear confirmation bias has set in.


Id think the likely scenario here is that the injury was caused by the rusty leg of a barrier


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Feb 2017)

It does seem that the riders themselves are generally opposed.

I expect the UCI are under commercial pressure to introduce them, so I guess the riders will probably lose this one.

As to what cut Doull's shoe, I'd be inclined to listen to him first. He was, after all, there.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> It does seem that the riders themselves are generally opposed.
> 
> I expect the UCI are under commercial pressure to introduce them, so I guess the riders will probably lose this one.
> 
> As to what cut Doull's shoe, I'd be inclined to listen to him first. He was, after all, there.


So was fran ventoso at paris roubaix and he was caught talking bovine fecal matter.

Being there doesnt mean being in the know


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Feb 2017)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> So was fran ventoso at paris roubaix and he was caught talking bovine fecal matter.
> 
> Being there doesnt mean being in the know


Equally, having seen nothing but a dusty long shot of some riders going down is pretty poor basis for providing an alternative explanation.

I don't know, but it's pretty clear that the many, perhaps the majority, of riders aren't happy about the introduction. The only reason for it seems to be pressure from the UCI which presumably is driven by pressure from manufacturers. 

As it's a commercial pressure my money is not on the riders.


----------



## rich p (24 Feb 2017)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Another disc unrelated injury.


unrelated?
You don't think it was caused by a disc?
Who knows but worth investigating, surely?


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Equally, having seen nothing but a dusty long shot of some riders going down is pretty poor basis for providing an alternative explanation.
> 
> I don't know, but it's pretty clear that the many, perhaps the majority, of riders aren't happy about the introduction. The only reason for it seems to be pressure from the UCI which presumably is driven by pressure from manufacturers.
> 
> As it's a commercial pressure my money is not on the riders.


Yes, commercial want is driving rider "needs" but give those who don't want disc a chance to speak out and they will, of course.

Example: Fran Ventoso blamed his knee injury at PR on a disc, but of two teams running discs at PR none of the 18 riders were near him nor went down.

Ventoso later published a grovelling "If the team wants me to ride discs I will" statement.

He also implicated discs in an injury to a Quicketep rider, where again none of the riders went down, IIRC it was a Greenedge rider on a rim braked scott who catalysed that particular spill


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

rich p said:


> unrelated?
> You don't think it was caused by a disc?
> Who knows but worth investigating, surely?


It wasn't caused by a disc, investigate away


----------



## martint235 (24 Feb 2017)

I'm trying to picture how a disc would cut a shoe without the wheel getting in the way. Or in fact how the sharp edge of a disc can make contact with anything unless you were really unlucky and in some kind of prone position on the ground whereby the wheel went past you but say your shoulder was high enough to be sliced by the passing disc.

If there's a pile up on a down hill and a bike lands on top of you, I can see a nasty burn could be possible.


----------



## rich p (24 Feb 2017)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> It wasn't caused by a disc, investigate away


I admire your certainty from the safety of the keyboard


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Feb 2017)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> but give those who don't want disc a chance to speak out and they will, of course.


Looks like ony 16% of the peloton are happy:

_"All riders were given the opportunity to vote but only at the end of November once the CPA had already agreed to the trial going ahead on our behalf," _Froome pointed out. _"The results of the vote being 16 per cent yes, 41 per cent no and 42 per cent if conditions were met, which they haven't been, I'm amazed the trial was allowed to go ahead. I'm personally not against the disc brake trial, but I would expect a certain level of safety measures to be put in place first._

Personally I don't care either way. It doesn't make any difference to the racing as a spectacle, except we might see more amusing shots riders flapping their arms wildly as mechanics fluff wheel changes.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

rich p said:


> I admire your certainty from the safety of the keyboard


If I'm wrong I can just hit the X top right and never speak of it again


----------



## Racing roadkill (24 Feb 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Froome: _"If a hot blade like that cuts an artery then a rider could be in big trouble," _Froome told Cyclingnews._ "I hope that we don't get to that point before we stop and take stock."_
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-froome-disc-brake-debate-shows-riders-are-not-being-heard/


I spoke to Froome about exactly this last year on a ride. He pretty much said that the riders don't have a completely free say on which bikes they are supplied with, but can raise objections to specific bits / parts, if they feel they aren't safe enough. He wasn't a fan of disc brakes on road bikes, but coming from a mountain bike background, sees the point of them / likes them in that application.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Looks like ony 16% of the peloton are happy:
> 
> _"All riders were given the opportunity to vote but only at the end of November once the CPA had already agreed to the trial going ahead on our behalf," _Froome pointed out. _"The results of the vote being 16 per cent yes, 41 per cent no and 42 per cent if conditions were met, which they haven't been, I'm amazed the trial was allowed to go ahead. I'm personally not against the disc brake trial, but I would expect a certain level of safety measures to be put in place first._
> 
> Personally I don't care either way. It doesn't make any difference to the racing as a spectacle, except we might see more amusing shots riders flapping their arms wildly as mechanics fluff wheel changes.


Ahh but the conditions were largely based on discs having a rounded edge and possibly guards? Shimano discs now have radiused edge and be "round" profiled as per Kittel saying he wouldn't race discs until then.

SRAM though? I dunno


50/50 on topic.

Start of last year on a club run,mate behind me chatting farming and spring lambs with some other eejit along for the ride. Isn't paying attention so ends up riding into the back of me and eating tarmac.

The fall was attributed to me and my disc brake equipped bike. I hadn't used my brakes for miles, and at the time my hands were on the tops.

Just being there on my wheels harmlessly spinning away, minding their own business was enough for anti-disc cries. Apparently the logic flow for an accident where a disc brake might be within a mile is to always blame the disc, who'd have thought?


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

Watch in frames (use the pause button) Doull is in the barrier and heading towards the ground before Kittel falls, his brakes are never anywhere near the barrier or Owain Doull

http://video.eurosport.com/cycling/...jury-in-abu-dhabi_vid960773/video.shtml#t=20s


----------



## jowwy (24 Feb 2017)

None of these scream disc brake issue


----------



## jowwy (24 Feb 2017)

just to add to this - there has been a long discussion about the crash between doull and kittel and there is now a significant amount of doubt around the disc causing the cut on doull's shoe. the reason being, kittels bike was thrown about 15mtrs up the road, away from the crash area and only kittel himself ( not his bike) was near doull during the crash..........................its typical of people to scream one thing in the heat of the moment and then realise later, what they think happened isn't actually the case. especially when admitting on camera that he didn't actually know what happened.

I rest my case for defense of disc's your honour


----------



## Dogtrousers (24 Feb 2017)

Actually I take back my previous comment that it makes no difference to the racing as a spectacle. The post-crash analysis has an added something.

But, as Michael Hutchinson says on Twitter

_*Michael Hutchinson*

The disc brake side will win. They're the people with the giant spinning knives.


The caliper-ists won't stand a chance. All they have to fend them off is essentially a little pair of rubber-tipped pliers.
_​


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Feb 2017)

Spinnning knife


----------



## jowwy (24 Feb 2017)

http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/video/video-can-disc-rotors-actually-cut_431182


----------



## jowwy (24 Feb 2017)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JplymlruPZ8


or this one from approx 2mins 50 onwards


----------



## Crackle (24 Feb 2017)

They should still be banned on fugly grounds though.


----------



## HF2300 (24 Feb 2017)

jowwy said:


> http://www.velonews.com/2017/02/video/video-can-disc-rotors-actually-cut_431182





jowwy said:


> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JplymlruPZ8
> or this one from approx 2mins 50 onwards




None of this is meaningful or vaguely scientific. Though to be fair, Velonews do say theirs is not at all scientific.


----------



## jowwy (24 Feb 2017)

Crackle said:


> They should still be banned on fugly grounds though.


One mans ugly, is another mans beauty


----------



## jowwy (24 Feb 2017)

HF2300 said:


> None of this is meaningful or vaguely scientific. Though to be fair, Velonews do say theirs is not at all scientific.


Of course its meaningful, its showing that discs are not spinning knives as people keep stating


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (24 Feb 2017)

I'm afraid I cannot work myself up to anything other than mild indifference, however others seem to have aligned themselves to one camp. I would like to think I have an open mind on the issue, and cannot see myself giving too much of a toss either way unless someone gets their arm or leg lopped off in circumstances where there can be no other explanation that chainsaw rotor disc mayhem...


----------



## subaqua (24 Feb 2017)

jowwy said:


> Of course its meaningful, its showing that discs are not spinning knives as people keep stating



Imagine a spinning knife with pointy serration being allowed on a bike . Lethal if you ask me . 

Oh hang on that's the chain ring innit and chains never come off revealing the teeth. No never . I certainly don't have a nice ( subjective I know) scar on leg from that no not me !


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (25 Feb 2017)

jowwy said:


> I rest my case for defense of disc's your honour


Yes but you can now be charged with foreign spelling and inappropriate use of the apostrophe


----------



## oldroadman (25 Feb 2017)

I can look back over quite a long period of racing at a reasonable level. When I started, brakes were frankly awful - anyone recall Universal side pulls, Weinmann, Mafac centre pulls (one finger enough - my backside!). Gradually brakes improved until the very efficient dual pivot jobs appeared. Powerful enough to lock up IN THE DRY. This is where we are today, carbon rims have metal facings or use special pads, and they will wear out eventually under constant heavy use.
Discs get hotter and will wear out too.
So, what is the purpose of disc brakes. Well, they are claimed to be even more powerful and this shows in cross and mtb, where people can lock up and slide through corners a bit faster than with mud clogged rim brakes. So that's an advantage.
Whether disc brakes offer an advantage on the road when the limiting factor is grip is another matter.
There is one clear advantage, the manufacturers get to sell a completely new load of frames and wheels, and make more money.

Eventually for safety, if discs come into local level road racing, the rules will have to insist on everyone using them. Mixed peloton = unsafe. Comparing to cross and mtb is daft, they don't have 60-200 people close packed for hours at a time at 40 - 65 kph.

More money for manufacturers as everyone has to re-equip for the start date. Good thing? Loads of perfectly good non-legal road bikes for sale at good prices because they are useless for competition.

So, who benefits? Riders, not really as they all have perfectly good brakes already on bikes which cost loads. So they lose out. Organisers and officials, have to sort out loads of hassle as the change happens, not much fun. Suppliers, do very nicely thank you.

Who is driving the change? The Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association who seem to be pushing UCI as hard as they can to get it through because they know that if the pros go disc eventually everyone else will follow.
How strange - not.


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (25 Feb 2017)

Spoiler: Sweary but amusing Team Sky disc brake nobbery


----------



## Smokin Joe (1 Mar 2017)

Perhaps if bikes were redesigned with greater safety in mind?


----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Mar 2017)

I have heard rumblings that the disc brake trial is to be dropped - "weight" seems to be the reason*

*or is that excuse?


----------



## themosquitoking (21 Mar 2017)

They hide the dissapated heat of a motor too well.


----------



## jowwy (22 Mar 2017)

weight - what a load of absolute nonesense................especially when they are already adding weight to their bikes to bring them up to the UCI limit

also Marcel Kittel and Boonen have both won sprint stages with disc brakes fitted, so how can it be a weight problem. Also cannondale drapac have been using the supersix with disc brakes and the slice with disc brakes and have reported no issues


----------



## Dogtrousers (22 Mar 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> They hide the dissapated heat of a motor too well.


Brakes? Those round things are really circular induction motors. 

Hang on a minute, my hat has blown off. Bloody tin foil.


----------



## themosquitoking (22 Mar 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Brakes? Those round things are really circular induction motors.
> 
> Hang on a minute, my hat has blown off. Bloody tin foil.


Brakes that make you go faster? We'll go 50-50 on it.


----------



## themosquitoking (6 Apr 2017)




----------



## Pro Tour Punditry (6 Apr 2017)

themosquitoking said:


> View attachment 345961


I'd have liked that but it appears they no longer exist.


----------



## User169 (13 Feb 2018)

http://road.cc/content/tech-news/23...reignited-top-cx-racer-katie-compton-cut-bone


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Feb 2018)

So that's 1 confirmed incident


----------



## roadrash (13 Feb 2018)

nope not even 1 confirmed incident , even the article says , apparently caused by a disc brake rotor. We say apparently because we don’t know the full facts of the incident that occurred


----------



## jowwy (13 Feb 2018)

Also if it was from the rotor......were is the slices from the tyres and spokes, cause the would Defo be some with where the slice is on the knee


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (13 Feb 2018)

roadrash said:


> nope not even 1 confirmed incident , even the article says , apparently caused by a disc brake rotor. We say apparently because we don’t know the full facts of the incident that occurred


----------

