# Police comment on HiViz



## snorri (2 Oct 2016)

I rather like CMPG





*CMPG - Road Policing* ‏@Trafficwmp  23h23 hours ago
See that cyclist in the hi viz jacket? 2 drivers stopped on today's #closepass operation didn't at all apparently! Full results/piccies soon

117 retweets170 likes


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## Drago (2 Oct 2016)

Shows what a waste of time hi vis is.


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## mjr (2 Oct 2016)

Urban camo now, innit? If you ever want to remove an obstruction from a cycle route (barrier, bollard...), wear hi viz and no one will notice you.


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## dim (2 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> Shows what a waste of time hi vis is.



not really .... I have one of these:






I feel like Moses .... cars slow right down and pass several feet away from me. 

When you approach a red traffic light with cars stopped, women throw their mobiles phones on the floor whilst they are facebooking as they think I'm a copper .... works really well in the day and is amazing at night.... well worth the money I spent as I feel a lot safer


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## Drago (2 Oct 2016)

From my experience of wearing real police hi vis you're more likely to find drivers deliberately having you off.

You're on questionable legal ground wearing them. If you're ever stopped by the Feds and asked about it be very careful how you reply.


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## dim (2 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> From my experience of wearing real police hi vis you're more likely to find drivers deliberately having you off.
> 
> You're on questionable legal ground wearing them. If you're ever stopped by the Feds and asked about it be very careful how you reply.



they are 100% legal .... they tried to ban them when they were first launched .... these are the best hi-viz jackets that you can buy for day or night .... get yourself one, they are cheap and will protect you

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2013/june/jun1413-polite/

the 2nd best are Proviz switch .... wear the yellow side during the day, and the silvery side at night (amazing jackets and well worth the £80) ... you look like Casper the ghost at night



I saw cyclists wearing them last year during the dark and could see them half a mile away, so I bought one

I commute 40+km per day most days and travel on very dark roads right throughout summer and winter .... good lights and hi-viz jackets are my priority


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2016)

@snorri remember when I was stopped by the Glasgow polis on a cycist safety campaign, on the cycle path, on a light, sunny morning, berated for not wearing a H and hi-viz?
When I told the officer, what about my bright red jacket and yellow panniers? He said: Ah! but the drivers won't see you ... Meh!


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## winjim (2 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> not really .... I have one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not polite though is it? It needs to at least say _please_, otherwise the joke doesn't work.


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## classic33 (2 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> not really .... I have one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Drago said:


> From my experience of wearing real police hi vis you're more likely to find drivers deliberately having you off.
> 
> You're on questionable legal ground wearing them. If you're ever stopped by the Feds and asked about it be very careful how you reply.


Sold as equestrian safety wear! 


If you can't tell a horse from a bike, you've problems.


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## Drago (2 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4494254, member: 9609"]what should you not say ?[/QUOTE]

You should not say anything like "I wear it because I want people to think I'm a copper and give me more room/treat me with more respect on the road", because it is an offence by 'word or deed' to impersonate a Bow Street Runner. 

You should say "I wear it because it's very comfortable" or some meaningless reason like that. A lot of law comes down to mens rea, or intent, and intending to make someone think you're a copper at first glance is very very naughty, no matter how laudable the reason. To actually own or use the garment is not an offence itself, but to don it_ intending_ to have people mistake you for a copper is a problem.


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## Drago (2 Oct 2016)

[MOD EDIT: Refers to Deleted post]

If you wear them with the _intention_ of making people believe you are a police officer you commit the offence. If you wear them because they are comfortable, or waterproof, or just like the cut of their jib, you don't. 

Whether that is right, wrong, stupid or daft is completely irrelevant - it's still the way it is.


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## classic33 (2 Oct 2016)

[MOD EDIT: Refers to Deleted post]


It's not the wording in use/being used on the back, given that it's equestrian safety wear in the first place, it's the reason why you wear it with that wording.


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## fossyant (2 Oct 2016)

High viz is no good if the driver doesn't look. Even with 3 high power LED lights on in daylight, coming towards a driver, if they don't look properly, they will hit you. As happened to me !!


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## Rickshaw Phil (2 Oct 2016)

I've given up on hi-viz during the daytime and now get fewer close passes than I did before. My impression is that being very noticable from further away makes drivers more confident to come closer.


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## mjr (2 Oct 2016)

Rickshaw Phil said:


> My impression is that being very noticable from further away makes drivers more confident to come closer.


My theory is that they see you TOO far away and have forgotten about you or dismiss you as already-dealt-with by the time they get to you.


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## mjr (2 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> they are 100% legal .... they tried to ban them when they were first launched .... these are the best hi-viz jackets that you can buy for day or night .... get yourself one, they are cheap and will protect you


They will protect you? Cars bounce off them, do they?


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## Tim Hall (2 Oct 2016)

mjr said:


> They will protect you? Cars bounce off them, do they?


It's the hidden St Christopher that does the trick.


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## subaqua (2 Oct 2016)

fossyant said:


> High viz is no good if the driver doesn't look. Even with 3 high power LED lights on in daylight, coming towards a driver, if they don't look properly, they will hit you. As happened to me !!



Agreed . I was in full railway orange when the cocksocket drove into me, although I think that was deliberate.


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## Tin Pot (2 Oct 2016)

I can't stand hi viz

Del and Rodney finally foisted off that paint on to clothes manufacturers.
http://foolsandhorses.wikia.com/wiki/The_Yellow_Peril


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## Pat "5mph" (2 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4494736, member: 9609"]Even if high viz does not help with crap drivers, it is just good manners to wear it for the careful and considerate drivers. And you never know, it may just help with those drivers on the border between crap and good[/QUOTE]
Opening ones eyes when at the wheel, never mind texting and/or facebook-ing, will also help the cause.


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## snorri (2 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4494736, member: 9609"]. Even if high viz does not help with crap drivers, it is just good manners to wear it for the careful and considerate drivers. And you never know, it may just help with those drivers on the border between crap and good[/QUOTE]
I don't see it as good manners at all, drivers eyes are drawn to this explosion of colour some distance ahead and can be distracted from spotting less distant hazards.


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## mjr (2 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4494736, member: 9609"]So on these two theories is it best to surprise drivers at the very last moment ?l[/QUOTE]
No, it's best to appear in context with the rest of the scene. Being seen before a motorist can see what other constraints are present doesn't help anyone: at best, it's just visual noise and they'll reprocess you when things around you are visible; at worst, they'll ignore you on the second pass.


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## mjr (2 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4494763, member: 9609"]as selfish as it may be - when I'm cycling I want drivers to be focussing on me.
(this is one of those statements on CC that could go either way, I could be public enemy no1 by the morn) [/QUOTE]
You realise people tend to steer at what they're focusing on? It's worse than being ignored.


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## classic33 (3 Oct 2016)

snorri said:


> I don't see it as good manners at all, drivers eyes are drawn to this explosion of colour some distance ahead and can be distracted from spotting less distant hazards.


And you'll often get lost if the background colour is something close. Why do railway workers have two colours?


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## mcshroom (3 Oct 2016)

As I've had it pointed out to me by a french friend, no one seems to miss the Gendarmes when driving there. Perhaps we need navy blue high viz like them?


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## Tim Hall (3 Oct 2016)

classic33 said:


> And you'll often get lost if the background colour is something close. Why do railway workers have two colours?


Two? Orange and which other?


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## swansonj (3 Oct 2016)

The official colour for Highways workers is changing from yellow to orange. This is because psychological research has shown that yellow is associated with an obstacle but orange is more associated with a human being, and if motorists identify the blob of colour they have registered as a human, they will be more careful. It is therefore part of the same coordinated approach to improving safety as the "let my mummy come home to me" signs. 

I learnt this at the safety induction before doing some work on the M40 hard shoulder. Apparently it cost £2M to instigate the new colours for the first big contract on the new system, on the M1.


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## Cubist (3 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE="mjr, post: 4494766, member: 34410] it's just visual noise and they'll reprocess you when things around you are visible; .[/QUOTE]

Visual noise. Excellent analogy. Up it a notch, and my theory is that so many things nowadays are hi-viz that it simply becomes a form of urban cammo. I may change urban cammo to visual Muzak.


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## Drago (3 Oct 2016)

Lowland Rescue and Mountain Rescue have been studying the effectiveness of yellow hi vis over the last few years and are finding it quite a poor performer , particularly in the natural environment. They now use orange or dual orange and yellow.


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## Drago (3 Oct 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Two? Orange and which other?


Tobacco stains.


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## Milkfloat (3 Oct 2016)

swansonj said:


> The official colour for Highways workers is changing from yellow to orange. This is because psychological research has shown that yellow is associated with an obstacle but orange is more associated with a human being, and if motorists identify the blob of colour they have registered as a human, they will be more careful. It is therefore part of the same coordinated approach to improving safety as the "let my mummy come home to me" signs.
> 
> I learnt this at the safety induction before doing some work on the M40 hard shoulder. Apparently it cost £2M to instigate the new colours for the first big contract on the new system, on the M1.



They should get their money back.


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## mjr (3 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> Tobacco stains.


That ain't tobacco. That's the result of one close pass too many...


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## classic33 (3 Oct 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Two? Orange and which other?


Saturn Yellow & Fire Orange.


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## numbnuts (3 Oct 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Two? Orange and which other?


Grease “ staying alive ” OK I'll get me coat........


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## mickle (3 Oct 2016)

If anyone ever sees me wearing HiViz yellow would they please shoot me in the face because I'll have been possessed by a evil spirit or been replicated like off of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Thanks.


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## Drago (3 Oct 2016)

Then only reason I bother is cos it's one less stick for an insurer to beat me with when their client runs me over.


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## Tim Hall (3 Oct 2016)

classic33 said:


> Saturn Yellow & Fire Orange.


No, railway in the UK is orange only.


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## classic33 (3 Oct 2016)

mickle said:


> If anyone ever sees me wearing HiViz yellow would they please shoot me in the face because I'll have been possessed by a evil spirit or been replicated like off of Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Thanks.


Or leave "The Ball" on top of you.


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## User6179 (3 Oct 2016)

I am colour blind as are 5% of the population and Orange Hi-Viz does not stand out to me , in the countryside you might as well be in full camouflage as I cant see the difference between orange and some shades of green.


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## Rickshaw Phil (3 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4494736, member: 9609"]*So on these two theories is it best to surprise drivers at the very last moment ?*

From my perspective as a driver I welcome as much notice as possible, this allows me to slow gently without using my brakes and to be able to time the pass correctly so as to give the cyclist as much room as possible. Even if high viz does not help with crap drivers, it is just good manners to wear it for the careful and considerate drivers. And you never know, it may just help with those drivers on the border between crap and good[/QUOTE]
No not at all - you are being obtuse. I generally wear light colours on top and on busy roads have my back lights on to make sure I'm visible.

What I mean is that from my completely unscientific observations there appears to be something going on when they see flourescent colours that makes them think they don't need to leave as much room. I still get annoyed by the odd close pass but it's quite a while since I had one I considered scarily close.


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## Drago (3 Oct 2016)

Eddy said:


> I am colour blind as are 5% of the population and Orange Hi-Viz does not stand out to me , in the countryside you might as well be in full camouflage as I cant see the difference between orange and some shades of green.


Whereas the other 95% will struggle with yellow in the countryside.


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## User6179 (3 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> Whereas the other 95% will struggle with yellow in the countryside.




Never knew folk struggled with yellow , It is one of the few colours I dont have a problem recognising .


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## Rickshaw Phil (3 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4495809, member: 9609"]Sorry I wasn't meaning to be obtuse, I just find the argument against hi-viz to be bizarre. I don't actually wear hi-viz myself but from a driving point of view I think it is wonderful, I've spotted cyclist through hedgerows from half a mile back[/QUOTE]
I find it bizarre too. I agree with you on liking it a lot when I'm driving and I used to be very keen on wearing high-viz because of this, but being ultra visible when cycling doesn't seem to translate into getting treated well by drivers.

I still like the high viz for night use when the reflectives do seem to make a difference.


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## machew (3 Oct 2016)

mjr said:


> Urban camo now, innit? If you ever want to remove an obstruction from a cycle route (barrier, bollard...), wear hi viz and no one will notice you.


Banksy has been quoted in saying, if you want to paint any wall wear hi-vis, have heart FM on the radio, a red top newspaper on the dashboard of you white van and if any one talks to you complain about your hourly rate or rant about them "Coming over here and doing our Jobs"


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## gavgav (3 Oct 2016)

For what it's worth, I do sometimes wear a yellow or orange top, and to be quite honest I find no difference in driver behaviour whatever I wear. I.e some rides are absolutely fine and drivers all behave and other rides they are idiots. I think it has more to do with the general level of idiots on the road and the unfortunate chance that I will encounter them on some rides.


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## mjr (3 Oct 2016)

Eddy said:


> Never knew folk struggled with yellow , It is one of the few colours I dont have a problem recognising .


It's a contrast problem: the countryside fills first with fields of yellow daffodils, then tulips, then yellow rapeseed flowers and finally yellow sunflowers. Wearing yellow out here ain't clever. Blue (intense ones, not cornflower blue) or black/white patterns are probably best for contrast, but really motorists should look properly and we should be demanding they look. Ultimately, we cannot force ourselves seen, especially when they're looking at the phone in their lap.

[QUOTE 4495917, member: 9609"]I am getting more and more paranoid about cars and trucks passing, I now look over my shoulder and make sure everyone about to pass is doing it properly.[/QUOTE]
I look over my shoulder, partly to see how they're behaving but mostly because I think showing a face seems to trigger something subconscious in motorists' minds to recognise you as human instead of a backside on a bike.


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## steve292 (5 Oct 2016)

> II look over my shoulder, partly to see how they're behaving but mostly because I think showing a face seems to trigger something subconscious in motorists' minds to recognise you as human instead of a backside on a bike.


^^^^^^^
This. I always look around at the cars by me when at lights, for this very reason. my PERSONAL opinion, which I wouldn't foist on anyone as gospel, is that reflective accents on the mobile bits of you are best in low visibility, and block colours, including black are best in daylight.
I ride a lot between WSM and Bristol/ Portishead which is as busy as old buggery and this strategy seems to work for me.


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## raleighnut (5 Oct 2016)

I've got one of these,




Drivers seem to notice it.


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## Lonestar (5 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> the 2nd best are Proviz switch .... wear the yellow side during the day, and the silvery side at night (amazing jackets and well worth the £80) ... you look like Casper the ghost at night
> 
> 
> I saw cyclists wearing them last year during the dark and could see them half a mile away, so I bought one
> ...



Yes I've got one and worn it during the night but wont wear it during the day.Not on the bike anyway.


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## Drago (5 Oct 2016)

Eddy said:


> Never knew folk struggled with yellow , It is one of the few colours I dont have a problem recognising .


It shows up very poorly against a green rural background. In some settings we're finding it acts like a camouflage.


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## Lonestar (5 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> It shows up very poorly against a green rural background. In some settings we're finding it acts like a camouflage.



Yes I can understand that...just like the ninja and no lights brigade at night.


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## I like Skol (5 Oct 2016)

Black is what you need. I normally commute in baggy black shorts and have a choice of colours for my cycle tops and fleeces. Thinking about it I am beginning to see a pattern of stupid pull-outs and close passes matching the days that I am not wearing the ninja gear!


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## mjr (5 Oct 2016)

Lonestar said:


> Yes I can understand that...just like the ninja and no lights brigade at night.


Slightly worse because at least at night, your headlights will reveal the true colour of the background, which often isn't black. Your headlights don't help see a yellow peril in a country scene.


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## dim (5 Oct 2016)

I like Skol said:


> Black is what you need. I normally commute in baggy black shorts and have a choice of colours for my cycle tops and fleeces. Thinking about it I am beginning to see a pattern of stupid pull-outs and close passes matching the days that I am not wearing the ninja gear!



yea ... black sounds like an excellent choice, especially in winter when most people commute to work at 8am (when it's dark) and 5 pm (when it's dark)


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## I like Skol (5 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> yea ... black sounds like an excellent choice, especially in winter when most people commute to work at 8am (when it's dark) and 5 pm (when it's dark)


I commute at around 5.30-6.15am and 7.15-8.00pm all year round so I have a rough idea what I am talking about. Black actually stands out remarkably well in a lit urban environment, often much better than pale colours like hi-viz yellow which tend to merge into the pale grey background under the bleaching street lights.


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## Pat "5mph" (5 Oct 2016)

Imo most cycling gear so called HI-Viz is not so at all: dirty yellow can't substitute good lights and good reflectives. It's the reflective bits that are lacking in some cycling jackets and in some workwear.
Bright red, shocking pink in daylight are much better than yellow, even black is better on a sunny day.
In darkness, I think a reflective belt and reflective ankle straps make one stand out more than wearing a builder's HiViz.


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## classic33 (5 Oct 2016)

Ten washes and they say it requires replacing anyway, because the colour no longer stands out at it did when new. How old for 10 washes?


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## Lonestar (6 Oct 2016)

No not convinced.Still using Hi-Viz as I have been for years and it's not going to change however many billions of anti hi-viz threads there are.Close passes are because twats drive cars.Some prove to me they can pass perfectly reasonably.

No excuses.

Why people go into a frenzy with how I should dress out there is really baffling.I'm sure I can make my own mind up what works for me and my own eyes tell me what others wear,whether it is good or bad,I don't particularly like lycra or dark clothing at night(or day) but i'm not posting a thread up about it every five seconds.

No arguments nothing has changed I'm still wearing the same hi-viz stuff on my next commute the same stuff I've worn on my last 1000's of commutes.

It's not a batman outfit so I don't expect people to see me,because if they aren't looking or concentrating/are bad drivers or don't give a toss then it doesn't work.


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## mjr (6 Oct 2016)

classic33 said:


> Ten washes and they say it requires replacing anyway, because the colour no longer stands out at it did when new. How old for 10 washes?


Depends how much you sweat into it, probably. Also, most hi-viz wear seems to be synthetic, so each of those 10 washes is polluting more than natural fabrics.


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## Lonestar (6 Oct 2016)

Well respect to you guys and gals.

All I say is you do what works for you just as I do what works for me.


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## T4tomo (6 Oct 2016)

classic33 said:


> Sold as equestrian safety wear!
> View attachment 146340
> 
> If you can't tell a horse from a bike, you've problems.


Just because she's got a pony tail doesn't make it equestrian wear


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