# Robert Millar or Tom Simpson



## Crackle (8 Jan 2009)

Nearly finished In Search Of Robert Millar. I really didn't follow his career until he was a part of Fagor and always thought of him as a one stage mtn specialist. I always liked him and loved seeing him interviewed but I'd failed completely to understand how successful and good a cyclist he was. Now I can't decide if him or Simpson was the greatest British rider. I'm tending towards Millar now, having read both biographies. What do you think?


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## Dave5N (9 Jan 2009)

Millar


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## Dave5N (9 Jan 2009)

Actually, Sir Chris Hoy is the greatest British rider


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## Keith Oates (9 Jan 2009)

Both were good but for me Millar get's the vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Aint Skeered (9 Jan 2009)

Dave5N said:


> Actually, Sir Chris Hoy is the greatest British rider


According to the rigged SPOTY poll

Has to be Tom, or maybe Millar


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## Chrisz (9 Jan 2009)

Can't be Simpson - how can a sport idolize someone who died whilst competing under the influence of drugs??


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## Bollo (9 Jan 2009)

Chrisz said:


> Can't be Simpson - how can a sport idolize someone who died whilst competing under the influence of drugs??


Oooooh, now that's a can of worms. I've just finished reading Paul Kimmage's 'Rough Ride'. It's not one for the cycling fan boys and he's someone who seems to have made a lot of enemies over the years. However, its difficult to read it and believe anyone was clean in either Millar's or Simpson's eras.


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## Crackle (9 Jan 2009)

Bollo said:


> Oooooh, now that's a can of worms. I've just finished reading Paul Kimmage's 'Rough Ride'. It's not one for the cycling fan boys and he's someone who seems to have made a lot of enemies over the years. However, its difficult to read it and believe anyone was clean in either Millar's or Simpson's eras.




There's more than a hint of bitternes in Kimmage. He couldn't quite believe that anyone could be better than him without drugs, plus a lot of the drugs were not on the level of EPO of latter years.

Despite Millar testing positive, I find it hard to believe he was a drug user, given his attitude to what he would and wouldn't eat but undoubtedly others were. It was a different era where the sport generally thought doping of some sort was necessary to compete through the season.


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## girofan (9 Jan 2009)

Dave5N said:


> Actually, Sir Chris Hoy is the greatest British rider



Good joke!!!! 

You were joking, of course?


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## Smokin Joe (9 Jan 2009)

I would put Simpson ahead be a tyre width.

Chris Hoy?

A couple of rungs below Alf Engers.


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## steve23 (9 Jan 2009)

Simpson by a mile IMO.
just something about him (yea yea he took drugs but everyone did in that era). he just looked classy. whereas Millar didnt, and is a woman now!!!!!! hehe!


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## coco2 (9 Jan 2009)

got to be millar, i raced against him in his early years...fantastic cyclist


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## yello (9 Jan 2009)

Tough tough call, different eras so difficult to compare. Simpson probably had the better palmarès (I'm pretty sure he did but stuck in a "probably" I case I was wrong!) but that's not all there is I guess. 

So, on paper - Simpson. On all factors really - Simpson... by a nose (ho ho).

But, I dunno, there's just something about Millar that makes me really really want to say 'Robert Millar'!


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## Dave5N (9 Jan 2009)

steve23 said:


> Simpson by a mile IMO.
> just something about him (yea yea he took drugs but everyone did in that era). he just looked classy. whereas Millar didnt, and is a woman now!!!!!! hehe!




Kimmage is an arse and Millar was very classy indeed.

Based on your post above, which are you?


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## mondobongo (9 Jan 2009)

Millar for me, yes as Yello says Simpson had the better palmares but Millar was something else when you watch him just ride away.


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## Crackle (9 Jan 2009)

mondobongo said:


> Millar for me, yes as Yello says Simpson had the better palmares but Millar was something else when you watch him just ride away.



Do you remember his last tour (I think) where he kept attacking on a Pyrranean stage and Indurain just kept reeling him back. After, he was interviewed and said he couldn't understand why Indurain was doing that as he, Millar, wasn't a GC threat.


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## Noodley (9 Jan 2009)

Millar oozed class and was the coolest person on earth IMO. 

Right I'm away to watch The High Life again on youtube  

Not that I'm saying he was better then Simpson. Mind you, I reckon these "who is better" things end up with squabbling rather than appreciating individual achievements.


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## yello (10 Jan 2009)

Noodley said:


> Mind you, I reckon these "who is better" things end up with squabbling rather than appreciating individual achievements.



Indeed. As I said elsewhere, you don't have to decide who was better. Appreciate both for what they were as they were both fantastic riders in their own ways.


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## steve23 (10 Jan 2009)

> Originally Posted by steve23
> Simpson by a mile IMO.
> just something about him (yea yea he took drugs but everyone did in that era). he just looked classy. whereas Millar didnt, and is a woman now!!!!!! hehe!
> *
> ...



ok ok, handbags at dawn or what!!?? its my opinion, i prefer Simpson, never really liked Millar!!! the post was made in jest love, lighten up!!!


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## Hilldodger (10 Jan 2009)

*Now I can't decide if him or Simpson was the greatest British rider*

Here we go again

What about Fred Wood, Charlie Barden, AW Harris, Reg Harris, the Linton Borthers?

Or do you mean of the modern post war era?


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## User269 (11 Jan 2009)

I think Beryl Burton was the greatest British rider. Her autobiography "Personal Best" has just gone back into print. 

The Simpson and Millar books are superb, as are the riders themselves. It is of course silly to try and establish who is really the greatest rider without establishing the criteria. Even then, I don't consider it reasonable to make comparisons over a period of historical time, or to compare riders who achieved different goals, or rode in vastly different events. 

Back to the fun though............Simpson v Millar.........well, what are their palmares? Doh! There I go again, getting all boring...........

Dare I mention Chris Boardman? Record breaker, TT rider, track, road, continental team, Tour de France. And he suffers from sinusitus like me.


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## Smokin Joe (11 Jan 2009)

Boardman was strictly a short distance time trialist and a track rider. He was good at what he did, but he doesn't even come close to Hoban, let alone Simpson or Millar.

As good as Burton was, women's racing was nowhere near as competitive as it is now during the period she raced.


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## gemma83 (11 Jan 2009)

Bradley Wiggins is a true british hero, his rides from when he was a juvenile to today have been awesom


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## Chrisz (11 Jan 2009)

User269 said:


> Simpson v Millar.........well, what are their palmares?



OK, stupid question now, but WTF are 'Palmares'??

I've tried googling it and wikipedia - all I can come up with are references to the slave trade and free slaves in Brazil - I'm guessing neither rider was also a slave owner??


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## mondobongo (11 Jan 2009)

Palmares are what races a Rider has won.

Robert Millar Palmares


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## Dave5N (11 Jan 2009)

Don't worry about it, this thread comes up from time to time.

Fortunately, in three years it will be entirely redundant and we will all obsequiate at the throne of King Cav.


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## Chrisz (11 Jan 2009)

mondobongo said:


> Palmares are what races a Rider has won.
> 
> Robert Millar Palmares



Ah ha!! A career record or CV


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## beancounter (11 Jan 2009)

Dave5N said:


> Fortunately, in three years it will be entirely redundant and we will all obsequiate at the throne of King Cav.



Never in a million years.

That muppet isn't fit to pump up Millar's tyres, never will be.

bc


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## HLaB (12 Jan 2009)

Chrisz said:


> Can't be Simpson - how can a sport idolize someone who died whilst competing under the influence of drugs??


+1



Bollo said:


> Oooooh, now that's a can of worms. I've just finished reading Paul Kimmage's 'Rough Ride'. It's not one for the cycling fan boys and he's someone who seems to have made a lot of enemies over the years. However, its difficult to read it and believe anyone was clean in either Millar's or Simpson's eras.




That's my next read,I got the book for Christmas, I'm half way through 'The Hour' and 'Put me Back on the Bike ' at the mo.


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## resal1 (12 Jan 2009)

This is a palmares :
http://www.nicolecooke.com/main/palmares/index.html

I think it eclipses all apart from Burton. But as Smokin Joe correctly describes, Burton had the misfortune to be dominant when Women's racing was just getting going. The World Road champs were 35 to 38 miles long and there was absolutely no supporting calendar, so tactics were virtually non-existent. A good letter in the comic, this week, summed it up with an analogy to the situation in Athletics. Fanny Blankers Koen won 4 golds in the London in 1948. However it was the first time 3 of those events were at the Olympics. Her winning 200 m time was aparently 24.7m. Her winning margin in that event - 0.7 sec still stands as the biggest. I quick check of the last 200m Junior World Champs shows that with that time she would not even get in the final of the Junior 200m let alone win medals. (ok tartan tracks are quicker - but 3 seconds in 20?) However - you can only beat who is in front of you on the day. 

2 Best ever Brit rides I have seen live - Millar - alone on the Bonnette 1993 (after the Izward and Vars) minutes ahead of the next group - Indurain in Yellow, and Cooke winning Flanders 2007 with a fantastic display of both agression, strength and inteligent riding. Best male, best female.


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## Bollo (12 Jan 2009)

HLaB said:


> That's my next read,I got the book for Christmas, I'm half way through 'The Hour' and 'Put me Back on the Bike ' at the mo.


It's an interesting read. Its also well worth reading David Walsh's "Inside the Tour de France" as, even though I believe they're friends and colleagues, he puts some of Kimmage's views in perspective.

As for 'Rough Ride', Kimmage comes across as very bitter (he admits this himself) but pretty honest until the last few chapters, where it does descend into gobshitery at times. It's safe to say he and Matt Rendall don't sit next to each other at any Sports Writers events.


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## User269 (12 Jan 2009)

Dave5N said:


> Don't worry about it, this thread comes up from time to time.
> 
> Fortunately, in three years it will be entirely redundant and we will all obsequiate at the throne of King Cav.



I hope so! Starting next July perhaps?


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## Paulus (14 Jan 2009)

beancounter said:


> Never in a million years.
> 
> That muppet isn't fit to pump up Millar's tyres, never will be.
> 
> bc




A bit harsh I feel, Cav is but a youngster in the sport at this moment in time, and he is a different type of rider to both Millar and Simpson.


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## beancounter (14 Jan 2009)

Paulus said:


> A bit harsh I feel, Cav is but a youngster in the sport at this moment in time, and he is a different type of rider to both Millar and Simpson.



You're right, of course.

I just don't like Cavendish and I don't rate what he does, i.e. sprinting. To me it's just a sideshow.

bc


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## Smokin Joe (14 Jan 2009)

What if he wins the green jersey, Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Tours, Tour of Lombardy, Ghent Welgem and the World Championship? All racers where the sprinters are among the favourites, unless of course you consider being the quickest rider after 160 miles to be just showboating.


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## mondobongo (7 Feb 2009)

Found a good article on Cycling Weekly which lists the Top British Pros.


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## Flying_Monkey (7 Feb 2009)

beancounter said:


> You're right, of course.
> 
> I just don't like Cavendish and I don't rate what he does, i.e. sprinting. To me it's just a sideshow.
> 
> bc



I am big fan of the grimpeurs (MIllar definitely for me BTW), but it is ridiculous to say that sprinters are a side-show. It is not as if they rock up in a car near the end and race for a couple of hundred metres. They have to race the same distances, and make sure they are at the front at the end, and then win. They have to haul themselves over the mountains just the same inside the time limits if they want to win points jerseys... 

I have no doubt that Cav will turn into the most successful British rider ever - and those people calling him a cock, well, yeah, you have got to be utterly focused and not give a shoot to be a top sprinter. It's about time we had a few more utterly self-confident cocks in British road cycling. And of course generally when he's interviewed it is when the adrenaline is still pumping after physical effort the like of which most of us will never understand. He comes across as much more normal and even pleasant outside of the race environment.


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## Dave5N (7 Feb 2009)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I am big fan of the grimpeurs (MIllar definitely for me BTW), but it is ridiculous to say that sprinters are a side-show. It is not as if they rock up in a car near the end and race for a couple of hundred metres. They have to race the same distances, and make sure they are at the front at the end, and then win. They have to haul themselves over the mountains just the same inside the time limits if they want to win points jerseys...
> 
> I have no doubt that Cav will turn into the most successful British rider ever - and those people calling him a cock, well, yeah, you have got to be utterly focused and not give a shoot to be a top sprinter. It's about time we had a few more utterly self-confident cocks in British road cycling. And of course generally when he's interviewed it is when the adrenaline is still pumping after physical effort the like of which most of us will never understand. He comes across as much more normal and even pleasant outside of the race environment.



That's right.


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## Crackle (7 Feb 2009)

mondobongo said:


> Found a good article on Cycling Weekly which lists the Top British Pros.




That's a very good and interesting little article that Mondo.


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## jimboalee (9 Feb 2009)

What are you idiots talking about? 

There was only one Charlie Holland.


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## jimboalee (9 Feb 2009)

Its was a close call between Charlie and Tommy Godwin.


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## Ludwig (9 Feb 2009)

The greatest Bristish cyclist was Tommy Godwin who cycled 76,000 miles in one year - thats nearly 200 miles per day. This was acheived in the 1930's on a basic heavy bike by todays standards. He was a member of stone wheelers in Staffordshire. You cannot compare riders or any athletes from differet eras. Miller was at his peak in the 80's , excelled in the mountains and is without the most consistant big stage rider Britain has ever produced. However there were some incredibly strong riders at the time on the mountains such as the Dutch, Columbians and Lemond, Hinault and Fignon.


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## Dave5N (9 Feb 2009)

Don't think young Tommy's going to be too pleased about you referring to him in the past tense.


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## jimboalee (10 Feb 2009)

Which Tommy Godwin?

b. 1912 , Endurance Cyclist,
or
b. 1920 , President of Solihull Cycling Club.


I know where there is a Tommy Godwin ( b. 1920 ) Track frame.
The owner is a relative of mine and refuses to sell it.


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## Hilldodger (10 Feb 2009)

Joff Summerfield. Rode around the world on a Penny Farthing he built himself and is the first person to do the ride since the 1880's.

And if you've ever ridden a penny you'll know what an achievement that is. None of these soft modern 'safety' bikes for real men

Us Penny riders are 'ard.


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## yello (10 Feb 2009)

Hilldodger said:


> Us Penny riders are 'ard.



Shame about the 'Penny' bit though eh Gladys 

But, yes, perspective and context. I'm sure there are a number of bike riders that deserve the accolade of 'greatest' for one reason or another - and all valid reasons I hasten to add. 

Why, draw the context tight enough and add sufficient conditions and I'm sure I'm the greatest too!


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## Hilldodger (10 Feb 2009)

yello said:


> Shame about the 'Penny' bit though eh Gladys



Just you stand still while I fetch my handbag.


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## Dave5N (10 Feb 2009)

jimboalee said:


> Which Tommy Godwin?
> 
> b. 1912 , Endurance Cyclist,
> or
> ...




You in the Soggywool then Jimbo?


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