# Training with Power



## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

So what does knowing your power over a measured time or distance actually do for you?


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## BurningLegs (24 Nov 2019)

It allows me to measure improvement or decline.


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## Heltor Chasca (24 Nov 2019)

It allows you to target threshold, sweet spot, VO2 max, recovery, endurance etc.


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## HLaB (24 Nov 2019)

It establishes more accurately the level you can cycle at and you can use that to train around.


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## Stompier (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> So what does knowing your power over a measured time or distance actually do for you?



In itself - nothing. But establishing/knowing your theoretical FTP does allow you to set target training zones. Think 'HR training' but with more accurate and consistent data.


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## HarryTheDog (24 Nov 2019)

There are a lot of things power meters are useful for if you are of a competitive bent. One thing I found with training with power meters is you knew when you were being a lazy git, ie you think you are in a 1 hr race you think you are flying along, you look at the power meter and realise you could easily go faster as you are nowhere, near your FTP. Or you get dropped and to get back to the pack you decide to make a effort, you can use the power meter to measure your effort to get back on without blowing up. 
Another thing I found was that "peaking isnt a myth" After 3 months of proper training I had a peak and then would continue to decline unless I eased up on training so useful tool.
Now I just use it to monitor my decline really as I stopped racing this year and am oin that declining age I suppose, but still use it doing SCR to sometimes have a "dig" at another rider over a mile etc ( I set a power figure in my head I think I can manage and then try sticking to it) .
Sometimes its just interesting to compare what power you produced to how you felt, sometimes its suprising.
ie I have 3 bikes MTB,CX and Road I average more power typically on the MTB then the CX then the Road as the Road is easier to get up to speed, I try harder on the slower bikes basically.


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

I've never trained with power so I am genuinely interested. When I was setting out my plans and targets for the coming season, which would have been around now, I would aim to reach peak form around early June next year.
December was about maintaining levels of strength and endurance with one long ride at the weekend and commuting.
January was upping the mileage on the commute by going a longer way round or out in the evenings doing bit and bit with a couple of club mates to open the lungs and get the HR up.
February/March was less miles and now long intervals on a stretch of road once a week where you could race without RABs and TL's for 10 minutes and that would be a set of 4 and 5 minutes between each effort easy pedaling .
April /May was racing at weekends and mostly speed work with long intervals again twice a week and once a week sprint training 3 sets of 5 flat out sprints 30 seconds and 30 second rest with 1 minute between sets. I measured HR every morning but tapered training irrespective of this if I wasn't up for it. A couple of weeks before the National 25 TT I would be tapering off. Then bingo the race you've been training for.
On this basis If I was measuring power then surely it would be meaningless to know what it had been because I would performing at a level that i hadn't achieved in training. If i only raced at what I thought was my FTP then I would be under performing. On the other hand, training and racing at RPE and the inherent pace judgment I had experienced and learned would give me my optimum performance.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Nov 2019)

One man or womans 6/10 on an RPE scale is not necessesarily anyone elses 6/10, 250W for example is always 250W but where that is on RPE is variable, where both relate to HR is also variable.

The humble Watt is the only training constant if you have a reliable way of measuring it, knowing what it means and adjusting training to are different ballgames


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## Heltor Chasca (24 Nov 2019)

I would love components to measure my power on the bike but for now that’s not within my disposable income budget. I know my power from my smart trainer. 

I don’t race. My interest is audax and it would be purely to scratch a fascination itch. I love skimming over my rides and watching my improvements.


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## Racing roadkill (24 Nov 2019)

It stops me hitting trouble with feeding and fatigue. If I know what my power is, and at which cadence I’m making that power, I know where my efficiency is, and how long my carb reserves are likely to last, quite accurately. Riding with power, has made riding long, a lot more of a pleasure, I’ve not hit the bonk once, since I moved to riding with actual power readings, which makes it a whole lot better. Before, I was judging how sweet the cake was by tasting it, now I know how sweet it is by measuring the sugar, added to the mix. It’s far better, the power meter pedals I bought, are without doubt the best money I’ve spent ( other than my bikes ).


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> One man or womans 6/10 on an RPE scale is not necessesarily anyone elses 6/10, 250W for example is always 250W but where that is on RPE is variable, where both relate to HR is also variable.
> 
> The humble Watt is the only training constant if you have a reliable way of measuring it, knowing what it means and adjusting training to are different ballgames


Disagree. Pace judgement is a skill you learn from training and racing, and is a constant. I wouldn't be intimidated by a number on a screen to either increase or decrease my effort just because it said so. But I do accept that there are pros and elite amateurs who do use this tool. However when the adrenaline takes over in a race I would be surprised if they stuck to their number so to speak.


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

I've won a few 100 mile TT's in my time and I used to break it down mentally to 4 x 25 mile segments. This involved holding back in the first two segments from the effort produced for a 25 mile TT and then building the effort on the third to a flat out effort as though it was a 25 mile TT on the 4th segment. Knowing wattage practically useless.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Nov 2019)

Ahh I see, you were just spoiling for an argument


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## Racing roadkill (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> I've won a few 100 mile TT's in my time and I used to break it down mentally to 4 x 25 mile segments. This involved holding back in the first two segments from the effort produced for a 25 mile TT and then building the effort on the third to a flat out effort as though it was a 25 mile TT on the 4th segment. Knowing wattage practically useless.


Rather than ‘guessing by feel’ power gives you nailed down numbers, it’s far less likely that you’ll screw it up, because your balls swell above your ability.


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## Racing roadkill (24 Nov 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> It allows you to target threshold, sweet spot, VO2 max, recovery, endurance etc.


That’s a very good point. I don’t really care too much about zones / VO2 max etc etc blah blah blah. They are what they are, they are a curiosity at best for me, nice to know, but a bit ‘meh’ in the grand scheme of things. What I do find very useful, is the recovery times that are generated, and supplied in glorious technicolour, by my cycle computer, far more accurately with power.


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## Racing roadkill (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Disagree. Pace judgement is a skill you learn from training and racing, and is a constant. I wouldn't be intimidated by a number on a screen to either increase or decrease my effort just because it said so. But I do accept that there are pros and elite amateurs who do use this tool. However when the adrenaline takes over in a race I would be surprised if they stuck to their number so to speak.


Quite right, it’s a new skill in its own right, to fight any urges, you’re adrenaline addled brain has, and obey the machine. However, the machine really does know best, and it would be a brave person who thought it didn’t.


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

But your numbers must change as you get fitter stronger etc. That's what RPE is about pace judgement and form. I wonder if you have ever experience that "magic" state called form, that elusive "invincible" thing called form. The time when you are waiting on the line as the countdown reaches 5-4-3-2-1 and you are in the form of your life and you go and nail it, every bend taken perfectly, pushing the limit on the drags knowing that on the downhill coming up you can recover and pick up the pace with a final flourish in the last 200 metres or so. Delicious feeling that stays with you and keeps you awake in bed as you relive every moment again in your head.


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Quite right, it’s a new skill in its own right, to fight any urges, you’re adrenaline addled brain has, and obey the machine. However, the machine really does know best, and it would be a brave person who thought it didn’t.


That's me - brave. You called it right


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Ahh I see, you were just spoiling for an argument


Disappointing reply that. I am coaching my son at the moment from afar. And he is excited about his improvement derived from his figures. He has recently climbed Alp D'Huez on a zwift indoor trainer in a personal best of 51.41 and he has only been riding a few months. he said that he rode each hairpin to what he thought was his FTP 290W, and he felt fitter and stronger then he normally does at the finish when his HR was at max. What would you advise he should do.


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## Racing roadkill (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Disappointing reply that. I am coaching my son at the moment from afar. And he is excited about his improvement derived from his figures. He has recently climbed Alp D'Huez on a zwift indoor trainer in a personal best of 51.41 and he has only been riding a few months. he said that he rode each hairpin to what he thought was his FTP 290W, and he felt fitter and stronger then he normally does at the finish when his HR was at max. What would you advise he should do.


Leave Zwift in the dustbin where it belongs, get out and ride an actual bike in the real world. If he’s only a young’un, careful route planning is key:


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

Racing roadkill said:


> Leave Zwift in the dustbin where it belongs, get out and ride an actual bike in the real world. If he’s only a young’un, careful route planning is key:




He's 43 and he has ridden his first road race a couple of weeks ago. He has been invited to train with a local racing team and is the second best climber in the group. He and my daughter in law are doing a team triathlon next week, and he is doing the 40 km bike leg. Yeah i'm proud. He wishes he had started years ago, but now its total dedication.


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## HLaB (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Disappointing reply that. I am coaching my son at the moment from afar. And he is excited about his improvement derived from his figures. He has recently climbed Alp D'Huez on a zwift indoor trainer in a personal best of 51.41 and he has only been riding a few months. he said that he rode each hairpin to what he thought was his FTP 290W, and he felt fitter and stronger then he normally does at the finish when his HR was at max. What would you advise he should do.


As your son has shown PM's are very good pacing machines, well done the lad (43 is a lad in my book )


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> What would you advise he should do.


Listen to someone else


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Listen to someone else


What's your Cycling CV like then? maybe he should listen to you. And a reply would be appreciated


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

HLaB said:


> As your son has shown PM's are very good pacing machines, well done the lad (43 is a lad in my book )


He didn't use it to pace himself. That's the point


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> What's your Cycling CV like then? maybe he should listen to you. And a reply would be appreciated


How would my experience be relevant? Your sons doing just fine training with power on Zwift, while you're here arguing against it and claiming "practically useless"



Bill Gates said:


> He didn't use it to pace himself. That's the point


Did he not ride each hairpin at 290w? That's pacing,he rode to a number, practically useless?


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> _How would my experience be relevant?_ Your sons doing just fine training with power on Zwift, while you're here arguing against it and claiming "practically useless"
> 
> 
> 
> Did he not ride each hairpin at 290w? That's pacing,he rode to a number, practically useless?



I thought just maybe there was some point of reference you could point to so that you could say that I did this and produced this. If you can't then it must be from reading up on someone else's point of reference that has made you an expert on the subject. Hardly has the same impact does it?
A theoretical armchair cyclist with nothing to show for the knowledge must be a tad frustrating.

Splitting quotes from different posts unworthy.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Nov 2019)

There it is


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> There it is
> 
> View attachment 494125



I think the expression goes. Well you started it and I finished it.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (24 Nov 2019)




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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Listen to someone else


You can't say you didn't ask for it with that comment old chap


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## Ming the Merciless (24 Nov 2019)

It allows you to improve your power over a distance or time through structured training. You can also target how long or how far you can sustain a level of power. You measure your sustainable power through a FTP test every few weeks. You increase your power, you increase your speed. 

You measure that which you wish to improve, in this case power. If you race there are other skills you need to hone, though others may have better natural race instincts.


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## HLaB (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> He didn't use it to pace himself. That's the point


Not going over his FTP limit at hairpins is what I would call pacing


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## Bill Gates (24 Nov 2019)

HLaB said:


> Not going over his FTP limit at hairpins is what I would call pacing


The climb is not a helter skelter.  There are other parts of the climb that are straight you know.


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## Stompier (24 Nov 2019)

Anyone hoping to learn anything from this thread is going to be really disappointed.


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## HLaB (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> The climb is not a helter skelter.  There are other parts of the climb that are straight you know.


I know, I've done the climb a few times in the real world but he still paced himself on the corners


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## Dogtrousers (24 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Anyone hoping to learn anything from this thread is going to be really disappointed.


I dunno. As a course on "How to forment an argument on cyclechat" it has much to recommend it


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## ColinJ (24 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> So what does knowing your power over a measured time or distance actually do for you?


I'll try to let you know next year! 

My cousin gave me his old powercranks so I will see what the numbers do for me. I have a long-standing target of doing the 8 km Cragg Vale climb in 20 minutes but have so far never got close to it. 

There is often an unfavourable cross-headwind for the exposed second half of the climb so it is hard to get a clear indication of progress by comparing times - most favourable to least favourable wind conditions have made > 15 minutes difference in the past! 

I think that if I knew I could average (say) 200 Watts, I could probably push myself to do 205 W. If I did that often enough, then maybe I would raise my target to 210 W, and so on until it was obvious that I had got close to what is left of any original genetic potential. 

It will be interesting to see how I get on.


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## Bill Gates (25 Nov 2019)

HLaB said:


> I know, I've done the climb a few times in the real world but he still paced himself on the corners


Exchanged texts with my son and have get a better grip on what he did now. I stand corrected and humbled. The program gives out a live average power output on the hairpins during the ride. He had kept a mental note of his previous FTP and knew that if his average FTP on the hairpins was up to what is his current FTP then he would be ahead. Plus he knew the times at various points on the climbs and kept ahead. His aim was to keep within his FTP figure so as not to burn out. 
That's the sort of information I was seeking. The thing is a straight TT up Alpe D'Huez isn't replicated in every day cycling real world either in training or racing but as a training tool certainly a bit of fun.


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## Bill Gates (25 Nov 2019)

Bloody Hell. He has just taken delivery of his new bike. £3800 Bianchi plus Zipp wheels £1400.


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## Stompier (25 Nov 2019)

Any money left for a power meter?


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## Bill Gates (25 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Any money left for a power meter?


He won't use a power meter for racing. His choice not mine


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Came across this.
https://thesufferfest.com/blogs/tra...rning-off-the-power-meter-can-make-you-faster

*"KNOW THYSELF: WHY RPE IMPROVES YOUR TRAINING*
_The best athletes in the world aren’t the ones with the most accurate power meters, they’re the ones that are most in tune with their bodies. They’re able to assess how they are feeling for a given power output, compare that to how they know they usually feel for that output, and then adjust their effort accordingly to get the most out of the training session. If they’re feeling great, they can dial up the intensity and squeeze every last bit of benefit out of the interval instead of letting a number on a screen limit them. More importantly, they know when to dial things back if they’re having an off day, allowing them to recover more effectively so they can smash the next workout."_

A bit like statins this one. The lone voice in the wilderness for years and years and finally support appears for your point of view.

https://tailwind-coaching.com/2017/11/09/importance-of-rpe-cycling-training/

https://datadrivenathlete.com/2018/02/25/using-rpe-to-get-stronger-on-the-bike/


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

The introduction of any sort of ‘structure’ into a training regime will provably improve it. RPE is a perfectly valid training metric, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. But other metrics like HR and power are also perfectly valid and they all have their uses. As ever, a lot will depend on your training objectives or preferences.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Anyone hoping to learn anything from this thread is going to be really disappointed.


maybe you should change "disappointed" to "pleased"


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> maybe you should change "disappointed" to "pleased"


Because?


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## Dogtrousers (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> maybe you should change "disappointed" to "pleased"


Why so?


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Because?


and
_RPE is a perfectly valid training metric, I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. _

Earlier in the thread, before I produced evidence, I repeat evidence by reputable sports scientists, of RPE as an accurate and even superior means of training and racing you were playing to the gallery with your remark. So* if you were of an open mind, *then for the the train by numbers brigade they would have learned not to restrict their horizons by using RPE. Then you come on with your not very magnanimous comment above as the all seeing wise guru, _well of course no one would disagree._ All you are getting is likes from sycophantic posters whose life exists around liking each others posts which they seem to think adds weight to their own weak position. When I give a like I mean it.
If you wish to get a like from me then contribute something constructive rather than weak meaningless comments. I may not agree with you but I will respect you.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Why so?


I think I've covered that just now.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

So Stompier how about changing disappointed to pleased?


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> If you wish to get a like from me then contribute something constructive rather than weak meaningless comments. I may not agree with you but I will respect you.



I'm not after 'likes' or 'respect' here - not yours or anyone else's. I'm just here to contribute to discussions on topics where I either have an interest, or relevant experience - or sometimes both.

You seem to be using a thread titled 'training with power' to outline how you 'don't like the idea of training with power' - which seems a bit odd to me. So on that basis, I'll stick by my earlier comment that 'anyone expecting to learn anything here will be disappointed'.

RPE, power, HR - all are valid training metrics. All have their place and I won't be dismissing any of them anytime soon. Ironically, you seem to think that because I am not dismissing the concept of training with power, therefore I am not open-minded. Which is also a bit odd.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> I'm not after 'likes' or 'respect' here - not yours or anyone else's. I'm just here to contribute to discussions on topics where I either have an interest, or relevant experience - or sometimes both.
> 
> You seem to be using a thread titled 'training with power' to outline how you 'don't like the idea of training with power' - which seems a bit odd to me. So on that basis, I'll stick by my earlier comment that 'anyone expecting to learn anything here will be disappointed'.
> 
> RPE, power, HR - all are valid training metrics. All have their place and I won't be dismissing any of them anytime soon. Ironically, you seem to think that because I am not dismissing the concept of training with power, therefore I am not open-minded. Which is also a bit odd.



Let me correct your strawmans arguments, nice try though. I do not think what you think I seem to think. Better to use actual quotes for accuracy.

As for changing disappointed to pleased I'll take that as a No then.


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Let me correct your strawmans arguments, nice try though



Feel free to point out the 'strawmen' along with any corrections. I'll read your responses and then respond myself.



Bill Gates said:


> As for changing disappointed to pleased I'll take that as a No then



For someone who was earlier disparaging the 'sycophantic' process of 'liking' posts, you seem strangely focused on gaining my tacit approval.


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Nov 2019)

So a thread about power has become a thread about .... That’s right folks: Power. 

A shame, it could have been a useful resource.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Feel free to point out the 'strawmen' along with any corrections. I'll read your responses and then respond myself.
> 
> 
> 
> For someone who was earlier disparaging the 'sycophantic' process of 'liking' posts, you seem strangely focused on gaining my tacit approval.


Oh Noooo!! Not another "seem to think". Straw man after Straw man. Do you honestly think I want your approval? FFS I am very sorry if I gave you that impression. Why am I bothering with this? Last word from me of I might or might not think. Use quotes FFS


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> So a thread about power has become a thread about .... That’s right folks: Power.
> 
> A shame, it could have been a useful resource.


Be my guest. Please contribute a constructive post on trainING with power. What's stopping you?


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## Dogtrousers (26 Nov 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> So a thread about power has become a thread about .... That’s right folks: Power.
> 
> A shame, it could have been a useful resource.


Fear not. There are threads in which such things are discussed sensibly - as we both know. 

For now I think we can leave this one as it is just a trolling match.


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Straw man after Straw man



If you think I am using a strawman argument, then it would be useful to know what this was, so I could counter it - no?



Bill Gates said:


> Use quotes FFS



I am using quotes. You can tell, because I am quoting you, above.

On the other hand, this seems to be causing you significant stress, so I will understand if you don't want to reply.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Feel free to point out the 'strawmen' along with any corrections. I'll read your responses and then respond myself.
> 
> 
> 
> For someone who was earlier disparaging the 'sycophantic' process of 'liking' posts, you seem strangely focused on gaining my tacit approval.


Look up strawman argument. If you don't understand then that's your problem. I'm no longer replying in any depth. When I see strawman I point it out and never respond to spurious nonsense


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Fear not. There are threads in which such things are discussed sensibly - as we both know.
> 
> For now I think we can leave this one as it is just a trolling match.


And you are the troll.


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Be my guest. Please contribute a constructive post on trainING with power. What's stopping you?



I did much earlier on when things were sensible but now it’s drowning in ego gravy.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I did much earlier on when things were sensible but now it’s drowning in ego gravy.


Play the ball and not the man. Cheap remark playING to the gallery. No respect


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## fossyant (26 Nov 2019)

Power meters are another useful tool especially if racing. Back in the day, I used to go off HR, we didn't have power meters, and I'd be able to judge how well I was doing with perceived effort against heart rate (not particularly scientific).

It's just another useful tool if racing and if your average power and FTP is increasing then the training plan is going well.

I don't race any more, so it's not much use to us 'recreational' cyclists - just more kit I don't need. 

Was I still racing, hell, yeh, I'd get one.

Thinks like Zwift are quite useful for gauging progress. You ride the 'same course' in the 'same conditions' each time you do a said route - if you are going better over the various sections, it let's you know. But, riding in groups affects the results with virtual drafting, so you'd have to ride solo on training runs. The training programmes within the software are also good visual ways of training.

So many more tools out there these days to help with training if you are competing.


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## Milkfloat (26 Nov 2019)

Well I opened this thread to hopefully learn something more about how other people are using power, as for me it is a key tool along with HR and RPE. I am a bit disappointed that someone with no power meter experience starts a thread asking about them and then tries to trash the concept without actually trying it.

Personally, I use power inside (Tacx Neo) and outside (failed Avio and successful Garmin Vector). If I could chose only one metric for my training then without doubt it would be Power as the numbers are absolute (within reason). In reality a combination is needed. Power alone only tells me what I am achieving, it tells me nothing about how I am feeling. I have had session where I only put out an average of 250 watts which feel like the hardest sessions ever and others sessions where I can churn out 330 watts and feel as fresh as daisy. By knowing both my Power and HR (and to a certain extent RPE) I know what I am achieving, can pace myself but most of all can track longer term trends.

Power also opens up all sorts of other useful metrics like stress score.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> I am a bit disappointed that someone with no power meter experience starts a thread asking about them and then tries to trash the concept without actually trying it.
> 
> Power also opens up all sorts of other useful metrics like stress score.



Another falsehood. Please point out any quote showing I'm trashing the concept of training with power. My own son uses it. The best stress score is how you feel. Just an opinion mind.


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Nov 2019)

Yup TSS (Training Stress Score) is a winner for me @Milkfloat I have built up a pattern over 2 years and I think I might have my winter and summer riding a bit cock a hoop. How to invert? I seem to be fittest around February and March.

I remember another metric I trained with when I sailed at a high level (2 x world championships)....DSS (Dad stress score)


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> The best stress score is how you feel


Which simply underlines the fact that you don't understand what TSS is.


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## Milkfloat (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Another falsehood. Please point out any quote showing I'm trashing the concept of training with power. My own son uses it. The best stress score is how you feel. Just an opinion mind.





Bill Gates said:


> I've won a few 100 mile TT's in my time and I used to break it down mentally to 4 x 25 mile segments. This involved holding back in the first two segments from the effort produced for a 25 mile TT and then building the effort on the third to a flat out effort as though it was a 25 mile TT on the 4th segment. *Knowing wattage practically useless.*


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

That's not disparaging power for training. so does not count (strawman again). This is a 100 mile TT race, and I would be enlightened if you could tell me, knowing your FTP, how I should use a power meter in this event.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Which simply underlines the fact that you don't understand what TSS is.


No need


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Stompier said:


> Which simply underlines the fact that you don't understand what TSS is.


And yet another meaningless throwaway comment for the gallery


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## Stompier (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> No need



Earlier you were talking about the need to be open-minded.


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## Milkfloat (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> That's not disparaging power for training. so does not count (strawman again). This is a 100 mile TT race, and I would be enlightened if you could tell me, knowing your FTP, how I should use a power meter in this event.


A power meter would allow you to ride within yourself and not under or over cook it too early. Despite knowing your body it is easy to get this wrong as no matter how experinced you are your body can and does fool you. You would have the ability to keep a relatively constant power output (given the terrain) which would be the most efficient over that distance. However, power alone would not help as you also need to work out your feel (including HR in that) to make sure that you can adjust for having a good day or a bad day. Your example of negative splits is most likely not the most efficient.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> A power meter would allow you to ride within yourself and not under or over cook it too early. Despite knowing your body it is easy to get this wrong as no matter how experinced you are your body can and does fool you. You would have the ability to keep a relatively constant power output (given the terrain) which would be the most efficient over that distance. However, power alone would not help as you also need to work out your feel (including HR in that) to make sure that you can adjust for having a good day or a bad day. Your example of negative splits is most likely not the most efficient.


Good answer. At last somebody playing the ball.
I'm not sure if you've raced a 100 mile TT. You didn't say whether you had or not. When you get the start sheet you look to see where your competition is and develop a strategy based on if you think another rider or riders are a danger to you. If you want to win then you don't want to leave any energy back out on the course. Going around any course there are going to be hills somewhere. My strategy was to hold back on the climbs and give it welly on the downhill to gain momentum and save energy for later. Feeding early and keeping hydrated important obviously. Then getting time checks from helpers on the other riders helped to decide on whether to increase or decrease the pace accordingly.
Noting that other riders were receiving information on me they would also be reacting to that information.
In the last 25 miles I would treat it like a 25 mile TT. I remember a club mate remarking to me in 100 mile TT who saw me as he was going the opposite direction on the road that I looked as though as I was suffering. He was right but not from fatigue but from the effort. You never know for real if it is a negative split because of terrain and weather conditions. But in terms of eye balls effort is was definitely a negative split.

There might have been a case for using a power meter in the first 50 miles but the realities of a racing strategy involve different efforts over different terrain and into or with the wind on you back.


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## ColinJ (26 Nov 2019)

Bill Gates said:


> Going around any course there are going to be hills somewhere. My strategy was to hold back on the climbs and give it welly on the downhill to gain momentum and save energy for later.


I have never competed, but I do ride an awful lot of long and/or steep hills and descents. I am fairly sure that this is not the best strategy!

Climbs are where you are going slowest and will lose a lot of time so making an effort there will save quite a lot of time. Descents are where you are going fast anyway so there is little time to save. It takes a huge effort to go even faster than very fast and you won't gain a lot of extra time for the effort. 

For example, I could save 5 minutes on the Cragg Vale climb by trying hard. I do the descent off that at up to 90 km/hr with little effort so I could not save more than a few seconds no matter how hard I tried. Better to save the energy for the flat or the climbs.


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## Bill Gates (26 Nov 2019)

ColinJ said:


> I have never competed, but I do ride an awful lot of long and/or steep hills and descents. I am fairly sure that this is not the best strategy!
> 
> Climbs are where you are going slowest and will lose a lot of time so making an effort there will save quite a lot of time. Descents are where you are going fast anyway so there is little time to save. It takes a huge effort to go even faster than very fast and you won't gain a lot of extra time for the effort.
> 
> For example, I could save 5 minutes on the Cragg Vale climb by trying hard. I do the descent off that at up to 90 km/hr with little effort so I could not save more than a few seconds no matter how hard I tried. Better to save the energy for the flat or the climbs.


Thanks for the reply. This was a strategy for racing 100 miles. And this was about conserving energy and not time. For sure a short distance TT and then you would attack a power climb. There are no big climbs on a normal TTs that might appear in a road race so you are not going to be losing that much time anyway. In the last 25 miles then time is all
Running out of energy on a 100 is very painful and I learnt the hard way, when I had no helpers and no race experience


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## Rickshaw Phil (26 Nov 2019)

Given how bad tempered this thread has become, it is best if it comes to a close. We are happy to have sensible discussion about the merits or otherwise of powermeters and other training devices - this isn't it though.

No more to see here folks.


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