# Disc Brakes on touring bikes



## sparkyman (9 Jun 2011)

With Disc Brakes becoming the norm it now days on All mountain bike and many road bikes as well, what effect will that have on long distance touring? how easy are they to maintain and should you go for mechanical over hydraulic.

Does the benifit of disc brakes wheels out weigh the effects of rim wear?

Would hate to be stuck in india with no brakes because I ran out of fluid.




Sparkyman


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## samid (9 Jun 2011)

sparkyman said:


> Does the benifit of disc brakes wheels out weigh the effects of rim wear?


I think one of the main benefits of disk brakes *is* less rim wear, in which case not sure what you meant by your question?

(FWIW, IMHO: for touring I would stick to regular (rim, non-disk) brakes, for their simplicity if nothing else.)


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## hubbike (9 Jun 2011)

Never used them but I think it is the way forward.

If I were to specify a new touring bike now I would have discs and a rohloff. They are both so low maintenance and good.

Your post doesn't quite make sense as disc brakes don't give you any rim wear! win win? well not quite as cheap, easy to repair vee-brakes are probably still a good choice for most tourers.

The main advantage to discs is more powerful braking with less mainentance. The secondary benefit is that if your wheel goes slightly out of true or you rim starts to crack, your braking is unaffected. But you'll still need to sort it out before the spokes break, or the rim implodes...

Cable discs could avoid fluid problems (if you like turning your bike upside down now and then...) In india you probably wont find too many shops selling disc brake pads but they shouldn't be too bad to carry a few with, even a spare disc isn't that heavy.

and failing that there is fedex...


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## andym (9 Jun 2011)

I am currently using Avid BB7s (cable brakes). I'm very happy with the stopping power (but then I should be as I have ridiculously big 203mm discs on it). They are very easy to setup, maintain and adjust. The brake pads last for thousands of kilometres.

Now, to pre-empt the traditionalists, I don't think you *need* disc brakes for road touring, and I wouldn't replace a bike just for the sake of discs (although yes, the Genesis Croix de Fer is quite interesting). However, I do think they have an edge performance-wise which for me outweighs the weight penalty (which is probably of the order of 200g per wheel).

The major downsideof my set-up is compatibility with Tubus racks ( or at least the Tubus racks you'd use for long-distance touring) because the Avids are quite chunky. There are ways round this and an increasing number of frame manufacturers are producing frames with the disc brake mountings inside the rear triangle.

I am currently carrying with me a spare caliper and disc. This is almost certainly over the top - but it does mean that in the very unlikely event of warping the disc or the caliper failing I could replace them. It would also be possible to build/spec a bike with both discs and the bosses for v-brakes (you'd also of course need to spec the wheels with v-brake compatible rims). Definitely belt and braces (or braces and belt loops) but definitely possible.

Hydraulic disc brakes are very low maintenance, and once set up there's almost nothing to go wrong. Almost. On one trip i managed to stress the hose joints when I took off the bar to pack the bike. The brake fluid leaked out on the first day's riding. I then compounded the problem by rounding the allen screws on the reservoir cap. Anyway to cut a long story short I managed for four weeks in the mountains in Corsica with one brake. So even if things go really badly wrong you won't be completely stranded - well unless you manage to lose both brakes. I could of course have avoided these problems by removing the controls from the handlebars to avoid stressing the joints when the bikebwas packed.


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## Andy in Sig (9 Jun 2011)

I've got hydraulic disc brakes on my tourer. They are more efficient than rim brakes i.e. have more stopping power and they work just as well in the wet. If in doubt, get them!


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## sparkyman (9 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> I am currently using Avid BB7s (cable brakes). I'm very happy with the stopping power (but then I should be as I have ridiculously big 203mm discs on it). They are very easy to setup, maintain and adjust. The brake pads last for thousands of kilometres.
> 
> Now, to pre-empt the traditionalists, I don't think you *need* disc brakes for road touring, and I wouldn't replace a bike just for the sake of discs (although yes, the Genesis Croix de Fer is quite interesting). However, I do think they have an edge performance-wise which for me outweighs the weight penalty (which is probably of the order of 200g per wheel).
> 
> ...



Very helpful post thanks.

Sparkyman


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## P.H (9 Jun 2011)

andym said:


> I do think they have an edge performance-wise which for me outweighs the weight penalty (which is probably of the order of 200g per wheel).


Plus the weight of the stronger fork and stays, maybe another 400g, not that I'm counting. It's not so much the weight as what affect it has on comfort. 


I like the idea of disks, I'm watching to see what developments in 700c fork design come about from the change in rules for cyclocross. In the meantime, I don't suffer much rim wear by using Rigida carbide rims.


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## andym (9 Jun 2011)

Yeah I didn't think to say: my bike is an MTB set up for off-road touring. For on-road touring the pros and cons would be different.


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## Nigeyy (10 Jun 2011)

AndyM's comments pretty much mirror my own. I tour with a bike with disc brakes (Avid road BB7s), with a frame and fork that has specific disc brake mounts (Dawes Sardar, old steel style).

Advantages: better braking modulation, better performance in the wet, no rim warping issues
Disadvantages: usually need disc specific racks, more expensive (need disc hubs as well as the brakes!), relatively more complex, less likely to find parts in far flung places

What it all comes down to is a personal choice: I love mine. However, unless you have enough money and just really want them, I'd recommend sticking with traditional brakes -the difference between performance of good quality discs versus good quality traditional brakes is just not worth the price cost IMHO. Touring has been done with traditional brakes for many years quite adequately. Whether or not you are prepared to pay for that improvement (that you could argue might not be needed anyway!) and its associated disadvantages is another matter. However, since I've paid already, I'll never be taking them off and I do find them to be an improvement.

FWIW, I do find some "anti-disc" arguments to be questionable, namely the old chestnut that they are more complex and less reliable. I've never had a disc fail for touring nor mtbing (arguably a different but certainly tough environment) and I still use "complex" derailleur gears. The argument that you may not be able to fix a broken disc brake also doesn't wash with me -to me the same argument can be made of traditional brakes (if the arm brakes, what are you going to do? That's certainly not fixable!). There might be some merit to the fact you may not want to use disc brakes for touring outer Mongolia, but even then, carrying a spare calipre with pads and disc may well be more than adequate and even overkill. I say "might" because I'm not touring far out places, so again discs are more than suitable for me.


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## hubbike (10 Jun 2011)

Outer Mongolia? that's exactly where you WANT disc brakes. 

http://tomsbiketrip.com/adventures/mongolia-2010/


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## Brains (10 Jun 2011)

Personally if I were specing up a tourer today I'd go with discs but I'd ensure the frame/set up was such that conventional brakes could be fitted.

The nature of touring is such that whilst solving even the most serious of disc problems would not be a show stopper almost anywhere in north west Europe or other areas of first world civilisation, a fairly minor disc problem, even in somewhere civilised like eastern or southern Europe could see you on the next flight home. At least the ability to fit a cheap set of conventional brakes that could be obtained from any bike shop or canibilised from another bike would keep you on the road for a indefinite period.


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## lejogger (10 Jun 2011)

Just to add my own experience to the debate, I've returned last week from a short 600 mile road tour around Ireland on my Boardman Cyclo Cross which has the avid BB5 disc brakes. (I know - not a proper touring bike but it handled the trip superbly)

Admittedly this was only a 10 day tour but I was carrying over 17kgs of camping kit and clothing etc, so still a valid test. 

I'll be honest and say that I find the disc brake stopping power exceptional in comparison to the calipers on my road bike which is important when carrying heavy weight - especially when you need the reassurance of being able to stop yourself down steep descents etc of which there are plenty in Ireland.

The additional bar levers came in very handy also, alongside the shifter/brakes on the drops when cycling in traffic.

I used the Tubus Vega rack with the Ortlieb Trunk adapter on top and had absolutely no problems with clearance. Admittedly this is a lightweight rack but could still have comfortably carried more. I think the max load is 25kgs?? To be honest, I would probably reach my own capacity for how much weight I can lug up a hill before the bike or rack failed...


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## GraemeG (10 Jun 2011)

I have disk brakes on my MTB. Excellent performance. But for touring in india do you really need that kind of performance? For touring in these far off places I always stick with the adage; keep it simple so that repairs can more easily be made. For example, I lost the fluid out of one of my brakes due to a loose bolt, this does not mean you have a sub performance brake - you have absolutely no braking power at all. It is a complete fad to refill need the oil and tools, and for somebody who tries to do all his own maintainance, I gave up and went to the shop (didn't have the right syringes). I'd say you don't want any of this hassle in the middle of nowhere. Use simple v brakes is my advice.


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## david1701 (10 Jun 2011)

GraemeG said:


> I have disk brakes on my MTB. Excellent performance. But for touring in india do you really need that kind of performance? For touring in these far off places I always stick with the adage; keep it simple so that repairs can more easily be made. For example, I lost the fluid out of one of my brakes due to a loose bolt, this does not mean you have a sub performance brake - you have absolutely no braking power at all. It is a complete fad to refill need the oil and tools, and for somebody who tries to do all his own maintainance, I gave up and went to the shop (didn't have the right syringes). I'd say you don't want any of this hassle in the middle of nowhere. Use simple v brakes is my advice.



or mechanical disks which work the same way as Vs cable wise but are a lot better (well my mtb stops better than my tricross)


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## MacPanda (10 Jun 2011)

Forget braking performance. The last 2 LEJOGs I did both included broken spokes, and therefore releasing brakes so the wheel would turn. Disc breaks would not suffer binding on a warped wheel, so for touring, a good idea.

I don't use them though


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## paulusat800 (16 Jan 2012)

lejogger said:


> Just to add my own experience to the debate, I've returned last week from a short 600 mile road tour around Ireland on my Boardman Cyclo Cross which has the avid BB5 disc brakes. (I know - not a proper touring bike but it handled the trip superbly)
> 
> Admittedly this was only a 10 day tour but I was carrying over 17kgs of camping kit and clothing etc, so still a valid test.
> 
> ...


Hi,

I am getting a boardman cyclocross soon. What size mudguards did you fit? This is my first road type bike and I don`t know whether to get the SKS P35 or P45 mudguards For touring which tyres did you use?
Thanks for any advice.


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## jjb (16 Jan 2012)

I always end up carrying my bike at some point on tour, on and off a train, up stairs etc, so it's (lighter) rim brakes for me.


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## MacB (16 Jan 2012)

jjb said:


> I always end up carrying my bike at some point on tour, on and off a train, up stairs etc, so it's (lighter) rim brakes for me.


 
what???? sorry but that's a little nonsensical, taken as a %age of the total weight you'd be carrying I seriously doubt the use of rim or disc brakes would be noticeable. We're probably talking a 5% variance tops here.


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## rollinstok (16 Jan 2012)

I,m very impressed with the performance of disc brakes on my sons rather tasty Whyte mountain bike. I,m equally satisfied with decent v-brakes which did the job great over many 1000,s of miles in the past for me and my new bike has them too. I find it a bit odd though that many cyclists will spend a small fortune to save some weight off their bike and accessories and yet desire disc brakes as a replacement ?


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## jjb (16 Jan 2012)

MacB said:


> what???? sorry but that's a little nonsensical, taken as a %age of the total weight you'd be carrying I seriously doubt the use of rim or disc brakes would be noticeable. We're probably talking a 5% variance tops here.


That's true, apart from the bit about it being nonsensical.


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## MacB (16 Jan 2012)

jjb said:


> That's true, apart from the bit about it being nonsensical.


 
Fair enough, my apologies, it's nonsensical to me, I can't imagine that amount making any difference to my ability to lift/carry. Unless of course the weight with rim brakes was at my absolute tolerances. I know there's a cumulative effect with repetition but even then I would take a lot of convincing. Not that I'm about to do back to back tours, identical bar disc/rim brakes, for comparison purposes. I mean we are talking a total weight difference of about 2lbs max here.

But you're quite right it's what works for you.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Jan 2012)

Reasons not to use rim brakes on a touring bike. A radio play.

"Au Revoir, Mr Greg"
"Au Revoir, mes amis"

Pedal. Pedal. Pedal. Slurp. Pedal. Slurp. Pedal. Pant. Pedal. Pant. Pedal. (continues for some hours)

"Thank God! I'm at the top, that's Spain over there."

Whirr, click. Whirr, click. "That's the photo's done, now for the afternoon of free-wheeling"

"Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
"Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!"
Squeal.
"Whoaaaaa!"
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
"Yikes! Oh **** this is sketchy!"
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
"Eek! My hands are starting to hurt...."
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

BANG!

Graunch!
Crunch!
"I'm flying and it isn't going to end well"

A short time later...

Thud.

A long time later ...

"Where am I? Why can't I remember my name? Or address? Ow that hurts!"


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## snailracer (16 Jan 2012)

MacB said:


> Fair enough, my apologies, it's nonsensical to me, I can't imagine that amount making any difference to my ability to lift/carry. Unless of course the weight with rim brakes was at my absolute tolerances. I know there's a cumulative effect with repetition but even then I would take a lot of convincing. Not that I'm about to do back to back tours, identical bar disc/rim brakes, for comparison purposes. I mean we are talking a total weight difference of about 2lbs max here.
> 
> But you're quite right it's what works for you.


MTBer's have been known to complain about the front disc cutting their knees when they shoulder their bikes.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> MTBer's have been known to complain about the front disc cutting their knees when they shoulder their bikes.


only the short ones who can't balance their bikes 

I have burned myself on a front disc twice now though.


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## snailracer (16 Jan 2012)

sparkyman said:


> With Disc Brakes becoming the norm it now days on All mountain bike and many road bikes as well, what effect will that have on long distance touring? how easy are they to maintain and should you go for mechanical over hydraulic.
> 
> Does the benifit of disc brakes wheels out weigh the effects of rim wear?
> 
> ...


OK what about the coaster (hub) brake?
Less likely to be knocked out of shape than discs, and similarly low-maintenance, rim-friendly, weatherproof and immune to spoke breakage/bent rims. And still common on bikes in India/Africa.


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## jjb (16 Jan 2012)

MacB said:


> Fair enough, my apologies, it's nonsensical to me, I can't imagine that amount making any difference to my ability to lift/carry. Unless of course the weight with rim brakes was at my absolute tolerances. I know there's a cumulative effect with repetition but even then I would take a lot of convincing. Not that I'm about to do back to back tours, identical bar disc/rim brakes, for comparison purposes. I mean we are talking a total weight difference of about 2lbs max here.
> 
> But you're quite right it's what works for you.


Aha, no offence caused, no apology required.But I'd say it's not nonsensical in that if I increase *all* my weights by 50% (as with moving from rim to disc brakes) I'll lose all the lightweight advantages I have at the moment. It doesn't make logical sense to single out this one item and disregard the weight in making the component choice.

Horses for courses though. I'm at 18kg all-in (bike, tent, clothes, shoes, etc) and descending in the Pyrenees was fine last summer - hands weary but no problems. If I had 40kg road weight, discs might be just the ticket.


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## MacB (16 Jan 2012)

Hmmm, me at 240lbs, bike about 30lbs and kit whatever it is...as you can see I'm unlikely to notice the extra couple of lbs for the disc brakes.


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## snailracer (16 Jan 2012)

MacB said:


> Hmmm, me at 240lbs, bike about 30lbs and kit whatever it is...as you can see I'm unlikely to notice the extra couple of lbs for the disc brakes.


Ah, but if you double the weight of your brakes, your own body weight will magically double to 480lbs - apparently .


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## MacB (16 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> Ah, but if you double the weight of your brakes, your own body weight will magically double to 480lbs - apparently .


 
That's not magic that's the good honest power of pizza and kebabs


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> OK what about the coaster (hub) brake?
> Less likely to be knocked out of shape than discs, and similarly low-maintenance, rim-friendly, weatherproof and immune to spoke breakage/bent rims. And still common on bikes in India/Africa.


I've tried it. They don't work in that context. Apart from the annoying modulator nonsense "We've fitted a device that makes your brakes rubbish for your safety" here is the short version of my experience of a 'big unit' like myself using hub braked bike to tour in some real mountains.

The grease melts, and in fact burns off, though I liked the smell, and they start to screech and scream. This gets louder. AND LOUDER. Until you notice songbirds dropping dead from out the sky ears bleeding, the sheep in the valley below starting to stampede and the shepherds and farmers peering into the sky to find the dive-bomber their ears tell them is about to attack as the hideous noise your tortured brakes are making echoes from one side of the hitherto tranquil valley.

Then suddenly, at some critical temperature which Shimano don't publish, they fade, they fade quicker than a dimmer switch at a swingers party. If you keep applying them one of two things then happens; they overheat to the extent they self destruct and with a final scream of agony lock up and spit you off the bike or, and to be honest the previous outcome is preferable, you find yourself riding in a sudden silence, broken only by wind noise and a realisation that it is your own voice shouting Anglo-Saxon monosyllables at the universe, towards that nice low wall on the hair pin bend, you know the one, the one with the REALLY HUGE sheer drop on the other side, that you are now heading towards with NO BRAKES AT ALL.

Please don't ask me how I know this. My palms are sweating writing this as it is. I'm going to go and have a lie down now.


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## snailracer (16 Jan 2012)

^^^
That's hilarious (although you probably didn't think so at the time).

Have you tried squirting water from a squeezy water bottle to keep the hub cool during epic descents?
I would also point out that rim brakes (even more catastrophically) and disc brakes can also overheat, although not as easily as hub brakes.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> ^^^
> That's hilarious (although you probably didn't think so at the time).
> 
> Have you tried squirting water from a squeezy water bottle to keep the hub cool during epic descents?
> I would also point out that rim brakes (even more catastrophically) and disc brakes can also overheat, although not as easily as hub brakes.


Rim brakes? Don't talk to me about chuffing rim brakes! (see my radio play above)

I sweat like a 'mare in heat' in heat.  By the time I've climbed a mountain on tour there is no water left in my water bottles....


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## rollinstok (16 Jan 2012)

I wish they would make disc brakes more compact. I can understand making them big so they stand out and make the bike easier to sell to your average punter at JJB sports ( this is our best deal sir..full suspension, 21 speed shimano and da da !!---disc brakes!!..yours for £189 ) Surely shimano can develop high end discs that weigh similar to v-brakes. We,re talking about stopping a maximum ( for most riders ) of 240 lbs including luggage.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Jan 2012)

rollinstok said:


> I wish they would make disc brakes more compact. I can understand making them big so they stand out and make the bike easier to sell to your average punter at JJB sports ( this is our best deal sir..full suspension, 21 speed shimano and da da !!---disc brakes!!..yours for £189 ) Surely shimano can develop high end discs that weigh similar to v-brakes. We,re talking about stopping a maximum ( for most riders ) of 240 lbs including luggage.


Once they get adopted by the weight weenies they will get smaller. At present they are all crossovers from MTB technology where bigger rotors than stock are often better.

(My personal gripe is that a range of frames from XS to XL will ALL come with the same sized front rotor. Plain dumb.)


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## lejogger (16 Jan 2012)

paulusat800 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am getting a boardman cyclocross soon. What size mudguards did you fit? This is my first road type bike and I don`t know whether to get the SKS P35 or P45 mudguards For touring which tyres did you use?
> Thanks for any advice.


 
Hi Paul,
I fitted the P35, but I have 23mm tyres on, not the original off roaders. on the front you'll have to creatively bend the top stay to get it around the disc caliper, or saw it off completely as I did. 3 stays are fine. I've got some photos on some previous posts here - or DM me if you can't find them and I'll send you a link.

For what it's worth, since my original post, while I still very much like the disc brakes, the BB5 have been very tiresome with the amount of adjusting they need. The cables seem to have taken months to bed in, so i have had to take up the slack a few times. Setting them up and dialling them in is simple enough once you've done it a couple of times, but is very fiddly at the same time.
An upgrade to BB7 is imminent.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Jan 2012)

BB7 upgrade? Good lejogger.


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## snailracer (17 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> ...
> (My personal gripe is that a range of frames from XS to XL will ALL come with the same sized front rotor. Plain dumb.)


Next you'll be griping about them all coming with the same size wheels.


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## John the Monkey (17 Jan 2012)

I've not got the money to take advantage of it, but Surly now do the Long Haul Trucker in a disc compatible version.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> Next you'll be griping about them all coming with the same size wheels.


They don't.16" 20" 650c 700c 26" 29-er etc., pack horses for courses innit?

but my point is a serious one. One of my mtb-ing friends is a mere slip of a girl. She weighs about half what I do. Her brakes won't fade on the Les Gets WC Downhill course like mine do.

Physics you see. (I'm off to Wiggle to buy a new rotor!)


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## Crankarm (17 Jan 2012)

John the Monkey said:


> I've not got the money to take advantage of it, but *Surly now do the Long Haul Trucker in a disc compatible version*.


 
Hopefully other touring/expedition bikes will now come with disc brakes or db mounts at least.

Only other thing is Rohloff hub with belt drive.

In the back of beyond you really don't want your wheels failing because the rims are split, worn through, due to wear from rim brakes; mud, crud and grit make a very effective grinding paste.


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## zigzag (17 Jan 2012)

i think the market is ripe for road specific disc brakes. two small discs on both sides of the front hub would spread the reactive force on both fork legs and retain all the benefits of disc brake. new standards will need to be introduced for front hub, fork, discs etc. - i'm already excited!
let's hope road disc brakes will be the next big thing (the progress in bicycle industry seems to be so slow - nothing really new since sti shifters and led dynamo lights).


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## jjb (17 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Once they get adopted by the weight weenies they will get smaller. At present they are all crossovers from MTB technology where bigger rotors than stock are often better.


One thing re rotors - I have dinner plate sized rotors on my 2nd hand mtb - they're stuck on, completely seized, so I have no choice. They're fine offroad but when I have to go on tarmac, they clatter something awful. I'd definitely stick to smaller rotors on a road bike.


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## MacB (17 Jan 2012)

John the Monkey said:


> I've not got the money to take advantage of it, but Surly now do the Long Haul Trucker in a disc compatible version.


 
Bit annoying that, so much chat from some firms about how disc brakes were a no no and then they bring them out. I have a set of the LHT disc forks on back order...I think they should be available late March early April. I fancied the curved blade design, seeing a few now where the disc brake tab is far longer. Spreading the load much further up the fork rather than concentrated below the curve. I just hadn't fancied taking a chance on a smaller builder version. I figured if Surly have got the forks approved for LHT use then I can have faith in them.


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## MacB (17 Jan 2012)

zigzag said:


> i think the market is ripe for road specific disc brakes. two small discs on both sides of the front hub would spread the reactive force on both fork legs and retain all the benefits of disc brake. new standards will need to be introduced for front hub, fork, discs etc. - i'm already excited!
> let's hope road disc brakes will be the next big thing (the progress in bicycle industry seems to be so slow - nothing really new since sti shifters and led dynamo lights).


 
I don't know which way they'll go, see my previous post on the re-design of the disc tabs to spread the load allowing for curved steel forks.

My instinct is that the double rotor design would be more faff, because you're doubling up everything, especially if there's any hope of developing full road hydraulics. It would seem crazy to develop an entirely new setup that wouldn't work with any of the existing stuff, hubs, rotors, calipers, etc. But that doesn't seem to stop the bike industry, so we'll see.


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## Crackle (17 Jan 2012)

http://road.cc/content/news/50510-new-shimano-di2-hydraulic-lever-updated


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## Ajay (17 Jan 2012)

I lurve my BB7s
I've long since had a small bee in my helmet with the fact that most cycling kit is designed with a 65kg Italian in mind, but the BB7s (on my Kona Sutra) actually feel and perform like they were made for me - a "fully grown" 108kg anglo saxon. The control and confidence I get from them is amazing. They really proved themselves on their first tour last summer, a French end to end which included some long long descents eg into the valleys of the Dordogne Lot and Tarn, plus the runs down Mt Aigoual and Le Ventoux. 
Ive had a rim blow mid descent on tour before, so I would never go back to rim brakes on a tourer.
Plus discs have the added benefit of when you've finished your descent off the mountain you can use your rotors as hot plates to cook your dinner.


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## snailracer (17 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Once they get adopted by the weight weenies they will get smaller. At present they are all crossovers from MTB technology where bigger rotors than stock are often better....


Hmmm I can't see why a road bike rotor should be smaller than a MTB rotor, unless a MTB rotor is over-engineered but why should it be?
The all-up mass of rider+bike is similar and while the MTB has wider tyres, they are wider knobbly tyres which presumably have less grip on tarmac. Off-road, grip is poor no matter how wide the MTB tyres are. You could even say a road bike usually goes faster, therefore needs bigger rotors than a MTB, no?


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## jjb (17 Jan 2012)

snailracer said:


> Off-road, grip is poor no matter how wide the MTB tyres are


I think this is the bit to question. On road you need fairly light braking to lock up and slide, so small discs are plenty. On some off road surfaces, grip is much better and the right knobbly tyres won't lock at all eg downhill on dry heather/bracken.


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## john wood (17 Jan 2012)

We've been riding a Cannondale road tandem fitted with BB7's and 203mm rotors for almost three years,its the only tandem we've ever owned that I can stop almost as quick as a solo with only two fingers(one on each lever) wet or dry.Truly awesome braking power.
I also have a Kona Dewdrop with BB7's and 160mm rotors,well powerful enough for any touring load IMO.
Discs and more specificly BB7 cable operated discs are the way forward for touring IMO,the main reasons are no rim wear and predictable very well modulated stopping whatever the weather even if the wheel is out of true.
Yes they're a bit heavier than other braking systems and you do need a substantial front fork to cope with extra loads imposed around the dropouts,its also better if the rear caliper is mounted within the rear triangle but if you want to see bikes made for the job take a look at Salsa Vaya or Fargo or Surly LHT disc.

PS I really can't see a need for hydraulic discs on a bicycle,especially with a caliper like the BB7 on the market.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Jan 2012)

john wood said:


> PS I really can't see a need for hydraulic discs on a bicycle,especially with a caliper like the BB7 on the market.


I have, and prefer hydraulic brakes on my mtb, Avid Elixir R as it happens. Off road on an MTB in the wet in the right 'wrong' terrain I've gone through a pair of pads in a day. Hydraulic disc systems are self adjusting. Cable ones aren't. I don't want to stop to fettle my brakes, with cold wet hands, once ever hour or so. I especially don't want to find out I need to adjust my brakes when travelling at some speed halfway down a mountain! 

I have cable operated disc brakes on my drop bar tourer Avid BB7 Road as it happens. Upgrade from BB5's. Not sure what the point of BB5's are. Awful things. BB7's in the right 'wrong' conditions can eat pads at a similar rate. A wet weekends loaded touring on NCN7 last year saw me rip through a set of pads. Constantly having to stop and fiddle was a PITA but that is offset by the rarity of such events and the delight I take in touring on a drop barred bike.


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## MacB (17 Jan 2012)

Greg, I was reading some comments on bedding in of pads. Seemed to think that proper bedding in, whatever that is exactly, greatly extends pad life, especially if using sintered.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Jan 2012)

MacB said:


> Greg, I was reading some comments on bedding in of pads. Seemed to think that proper bedding in, whatever that is exactly, greatly extends pad life, especially if using sintered.


I've read similar. But could not find consistency as to what constitutes proper bedding in! Usual story, ask 10 cyclists get 13 opinions.

Also, does it not seem slightly counter-intuitive given pads are constantly wearing and all bedding in does is dress the original surface out of the packet.


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## MacB (17 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> I've read similar. But could not find consistency as to what constitutes proper bedding in! Usual story, ask 10 cyclists get 13 opinions.
> 
> Also, does it not seem slightly counter-intuitive given pads are constantly wearing and all bedding in does is dress the original surface out of the packet.


 
Ah, just thought you might have known more, I'm in the same boat as you, read this stuff then read a variety of opinion on what constitutes bedding in. I'm sure it would vary anyway depending on rotor and type of pad.

To be honest I've mainly seen it in terms of a response to a grumble about wearing through a set of pads really quickly. As in, you didn't bed them in right, followed by no detail or a vague anecdote. I'm sure there is some quality info lurking at the root of all this. But, as usual with the net, it's obfuscated by people just repeating what they think makes them sound knowledgeable. I still use that BB7 setup link you gave me, that's the level of quality I like 

So far I've been able to glean that 'dragging' the brakes isn't a good way of bedding them in. You're better with a few well spaced out heavier braking activities. How many, for how long and at what speeds seems to be up in the air though. The logic being that the braking surface heats up and cools and somehow seals??? Whereas dragging them doesn't allow the cooling period and can somehow create a surface that will wear far more rapidly??? This is different to dragging them once they are properly bedded in apparently, then it's ok if you must.

Anyone want to add to this party?


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## jjb (17 Jan 2012)

I read an hour or two on this subject and ended up not bothering with bedding in. I do suppose that if there were an advantage, there'd be a brand of brakes saying "pre-bedded", or there'd at least be instructions on the packaging for bedding them in.


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## john wood (17 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> I have, and prefer hydraulic brakes on my mtb, Avid Elixir R as it happens. Off road on an MTB in the wet in the right 'wrong' terrain I've gone through a pair of pads in a day. Hydraulic disc systems are self adjusting. Cable ones aren't. I don't want to stop to fettle my brakes, with cold wet hands, once ever hour or so. I especially don't want to find out I need to adjust my brakes when travelling at some speed halfway down a mountain!
> 
> I have cable operated disc brakes on my drop bar tourer Avid BB7 Road as it happens. Upgrade from BB5's. Not sure what the point of BB5's are. Awful things. BB7's in the right 'wrong' conditions can eat pads at a similar rate. A wet weekends loaded touring on NCN7 last year saw me rip through a set of pads. Constantly having to stop and fiddle was a PITA but that is offset by the rarity of such events and the delight I take in touring on a drop barred bike.


 The C/dale,which is our winter tandem and so gets the worst of the weather,does see some mucky Cheshire lanes and towpaths and I've never yet needed to adjust pads on the road.In fact its only on its third set of pads since we bought the bike almost three years and 4 to 5,000miles ago.I can understend an MTB would see more muck than our tandem does but it seems very rapid pad wear.
What kind of pads are you using?


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Jan 2012)

^ Avids own, and a couple of other replacement brands whose name escapes me. I don't see 1000 miles from a set of pads.

NCN7 in mucky weather is a little more aggressive than lanes and towpaths, my companion shot his rim brakes over the same weekend.

Avid's published bedding in method

1. Accelerate the bike to a moderate speed
(approximately 19 kilometers or 12 miles per
hour), then firmly apply the brakes until you are
at walking speed. Repeat approximately twenty
times.
2. Accelerate the bike to a faster speed
(approximately 32 kilometers or 20 miles per
hour). Then very firmly and suddenly apply the
brakes until you are at walking speed. Repeat
approximately ten times.
important: do not lock up the wheels at any point
during the bed-in procedure.
3. Allow the brakes to cool prior to any additional
riding.
this concludes the disc brake pad and rotor bed-in
procedure. you did a great job! you are now ready to
ride. enjoy!

You are now ready to ride with badly glazed pads ime. Screeeeeeetch-tastic.

I'm of the bedding in = just ride normally school


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## john wood (18 Jan 2012)

Greg
When I asked what pads,I should've asked what compound?
I'm no expert on different pads as I only ever use Organic but I believe Sintered are harder than Organic so would/should(?) last longer.
Of course that only counts if you're using Organics
when I said the tandem was on its third set of pads,now I've checked the _rear _rear is on the third set (October last year) the front is still on its second.
I'm finding the pads from Superstar Components good kit and @ £18 for three sets good value too.


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## jay clock (18 Jan 2012)

I went from a Galaxy lookalike with cantis (terrible) to a Koga Miyata with v brakes. These are fantastic. But having an MTB with discs, I would definitely be keen to get these an my next tourer. If I ever get one.

It doesn't seem so long since the general word seemed to be that "the laws of science prove that disc brakes on dropped bar bikes mean they are impossible and in any case discs on tourers will cause the forks to snap off if you try and brake even at 1mph"


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## MacB (18 Jan 2012)

jay clock said:


> It doesn't seem so long since the general word seemed to be that "the laws of science prove that disc brakes on dropped bar bikes mean they are impossible and in any case discs on tourers will cause the forks to snap off if you try and brake even at 1mph"


 
It's quite funny to see the attitudes change as more and more manufacturers bring out options. Even the likes of Thorn have now specced disc brakes, though they still insist steel will combust if used as forks for disc brakes, so only offer carbon ones, a material they have been less than complimentary about in the past


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## pkeenan (19 Jan 2012)

I'm wondering if many people here have come across the Andra CSS (Carbide Super Sonic) rims? I have them on my tourer (Thorn Nomad), used with Swisstop Blue brake pad, Shimano XTR M970 V-brakes.
When I was in the market for my tourer (as some may recall), I was really heart-set on disc brakes. Eventually I decided the Nomad was the bike for me, though there was no disc brake option (or at least it was rear wheel only [can't recall] - I think this might have changed now). So I looked at their alternative - let's keep in mind that they designed this bike for hardcore expedition touring, so one would expect a pretty good substitute. I looked these Andras up, read what people thought of them in forums and such - they seemed very highly regarded. Multiple people claiming they've done up to 20000 miles on their original rims and pads.

My own personal verdict of them - they are absolutely brilliant. I have done about 4500/5000 miles since getting my bike in July (about 1500 of which was a very heavy loaded tour) and neither the rim nor the brake pads are showing any signs of wear. My wheels are also still perfectly true. (I've also not yet had a puncture, but that's for a different discussion!)

Of course, if one prefers disc brakes - that is a completely different matter. I would probably have gotten them, had I opted for a different bike. Though I think what my point is is that there *is* an alternative, and if it comes well built, it can (in many ways) be much more advantageous that discs, surprisingly so.

Whoever built my wheels is a very skilled craftsman - I can say that much.

Food for thought!


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jan 2012)

john wood said:


> Greg
> When I asked what pads,I should've asked what compound?
> I'm no expert on different pads as I only ever use Organic but I believe Sintered are harder than Organic so would/should(?) last longer.
> Of course that only counts if you're using Organics
> ...


Organic. Superstar are good value aren't they.
Downside of sintered if your big/heavy is rotor wear.
I fancy a pair of Ashima SOS Dual compound for the mtb.


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## John the Monkey (19 Jan 2012)

jay clock said:


> It doesn't seem so long since the general word seemed to be that "the laws of science prove that disc brakes on dropped bar bikes mean they are impossible and in any case discs on tourers will cause the forks to snap off if you try and brake even at 1mph"


There are problems, and the frame and fork need to be capable of withstanding the forces.

Admittedly, the bike was a tandem, but I've seen reports of a fork bent by the braking force of discs (the disc tabs were brazed onto a fork originally designed for rim brakes, apparently).


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## john wood (19 Jan 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Organic. Superstar are good value aren't they.
> Downside of sintered if your big/heavy is rotor wear.
> I fancy a pair of Ashima SOS Dual compound for the mtb.


 Those look like a good alternative.


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## john wood (19 Jan 2012)

pkeenan said:


> I'm wondering if many people here have come across the Andra CSS (Carbide Super Sonic) rims? I have them on my tourer (Thorn Nomad), used with Swisstop Blue brake pad, Shimano XTR M970 V-brakes.
> When I was in the market for my tourer (as some may recall), I was really heart-set on disc brakes. Eventually I decided the Nomad was the bike for me, though there was no disc brake option (or at least it was rear wheel only [can't recall] - I think this might have changed now). So I looked at their alternative - let's keep in mind that they designed this bike for hardcore expedition touring, so one would expect a pretty good substitute. I looked these Andras up, read what people thought of them in forums and such - they seemed very highly regarded. Multiple people claiming they've done up to 20000 miles on their original rims and pads.
> 
> My own personal verdict of them - they are absolutely brilliant. I have done about 4500/5000 miles since getting my bike in July (about 1500 of which was a very heavy loaded tour) and neither the rim nor the brake pads are showing any signs of wear. My wheels are also still perfectly true. (I've also not yet had a puncture, but that's for a different discussion!)
> ...


 Thats a very good endorsment of ceramic type rims,I have a friend who's run Mavic ceramic rims for the best part of 10 years on his touring bike without any signs of wear.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jan 2012)

John the Monkey said:


> There are problems, and the frame and fork need to be capable of withstanding the forces.
> 
> Admittedly, the bike was a tandem, but I've seen reports of a fork bent by the braking force of discs (the *disc tabs were brazed onto a fork originally designed for rim brakes*, apparently).


dumb dumb dumb move on older designs, decent framebuilders refuse to do it ime.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jan 2012)

john wood said:


> Those look like a good alternative.


until you see the price!


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## gilespargiter (5 Feb 2012)

I have been considering disc brakes on a tourer. For what it is worth, it seems to me that a couple of points emerge in this thread, leaving aside those that dogmatically prefer one or the other.
One point is the quality of components; It seems that neither the qualities of pads, discs, brake blocks or rims are revealed quantitatively by manufacturers or known by users.
The other is that in fact the real weight issue probably comes from needing different fork and stay characteristics rather than the brakes themselves (although them as well).
It appears that many cycle parts manufacturers seem to spend large amounts of money on starting fashions and advertising, but very little on the actual components they wish us to buy. Never mind finding out what actually improves or extends the cycling experience.
Bearing in mind that especially perhaps in this context, motorcycles, have brakes which last far longer, stopping from far faster a much heavier machine, with brakes that relative to the machine and speed probably weigh far less, over a similar range of conditions.
It would seem to me if anyone is interested enough that it might be worth approaching a large brake friction material manufacturer such as; Ferrodo, or Mintex (Anyone here a technician in this industry?) to find out quantified information and any particular difficulties that may be peculiar to bicycles, in order to obtain the best materials.
In my view except possibly in the most extreme of off road conditions, if your brakes don't perform for several thousands of miles, they are not fit for purpose. You can't really over heat rim brake blocks because the tyres will pop first (the only reason I was considering discs).

Wheel rims do not 'suddenly' wear out over one weekend - this is maintenance and servicing in the hands of the user.
If one has hydraulic oil leak problems, cheap vegetable cooking oil can be used without further damaging seals in an emergency. Brake fluid is vegetable oil with (highly toxic) additives to dissolve air and emulsify water (to stop it boiling).
Anywhere their is a motor vehicle there is brake fluid; even in India.


Bearing all this in mind and using the edict of simplest and universally repairable and understandable is best for touring; for the time being discs are out for me. I hope everyone else keeps using them because then they will get better!


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