# Nissan Leaf - what do we think?



## TheDoctor (18 Apr 2021)

Evenings!
We have had a missive from EDF offering us a deal on an EV tariff and lease of an electric car - probably a Leaf. The Megane dci is getting on a bit, and it's always nice to engage New Toy Mode. We can work with the mileage and range limitations, and we have off-road parking and a convenient place to mount a Dispenser of Sparks.
Anyone had one? Got an opinion?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (18 Apr 2021)

My neighbour has one but has no home electrial pixie transfer box so charges it somewhere? Besides the looks of them (I can't be too harsh as I drive a Juke! ) I'm starting to see the potential in e vehicles.

My sister has a double driveway with a chargepoint that's never used and there's a double charger 30ft away from me on this site I could plug into anytime I like - I'm talking myself into it as I type


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## Archie_tect (18 Apr 2021)

Doc, why would EDF do that out of the blue?

1st or 2nd generation Leaf?

2nd is OK but a friend had one and it just stopped for no reason and had to be recovered by Nissan from Cumbria- they're a few years old now- first gen is probably not worth it.


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## TheDoctor (19 Apr 2021)

We get our electricity from EDF. Probably got something to do with it.
And it would be brand new, so second gen.


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## Bazzer (19 Apr 2021)

A work colleague is on her second.
She had a first gen and last year acquired a second generation. From the conversations with her, the first gen had its limitations. She finds the second generation much better and now sees no reason to go back to an internal combustion engine.
If not part of the deal, I would do some research on delivery of the angry pixies. l have a hybrid, but at least for the time being, leave the charging cable running under the garage door to a standard 3 pin plug. Although this takes longer, it suits my current driving needs, so isn't a problem for me. I had it mind that it was simply a case of contacting a registered charge point installer,who would run a take off point, but I saw a You Tube video a month or so ago which suggested that was not always the case. And, depending upon your circumstance, may want to future proof the installation.


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## Tenkaykev (19 Apr 2021)

Bazzer said:


> A work colleague is on her second.
> She had a first gen and last year acquired a second generation. From the conversations with her, the first gen had its limitations. She finds the second generation much better and now sees no reason to go back to an internal combustion engine.
> If not part of the deal, I would do some research on delivery of the angry pixies. l have a hybrid, but at least for the time being, leave the charging cable running under the garage door to a standard 3 pin plug. Although this takes longer, it suits my current driving needs, so isn't a problem for me. But I had it mind that it was simply a case of contacting a registered charge point installer,who would run a take off point. But I saw a You Tube video a month or so ago which suggested that was not always the case. And, depending upon your circumstance, may want to future proof the installation.



On yesterday’s walk I noticed a terrace of houses, a couple of them had charge points attached to the front wall. They stood out as they were new and white in colour against the red of the brickwork.
A lot of the local newbuilds have them, usually freestanding on a stout wooden post. 
I think the pace of change is going to be faster than most people think.


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## gzoom (19 Apr 2021)

I had 1.5gen Leaf on lease for 2 years as my first EV. That was back in 2015, VW at the time was still trying to convince the world about 'clean diesels', and rapid charging above even 50KW chargers was big news versus the 350KW here with us now....but I digress.

Fantastic family car, bigger than you think, it bought my daughter home from the hospital (her first trip in a car!!).

Despite its tiny M way range of sub 70 miles I took it every where, even on a 350 mile road trip in the Peak District. Its dull compared to our current Model X (what isn't) but it also cost less to own over 2 years compared to just the *SEATS* upgrade in the Tesla!!!

I would happily have one again as our main family car any time .


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## Drago (19 Apr 2021)

The change won't happen. Theres only 40% of the neodymium required to replace every ICE car with a battery one, not to mention the lithium carbonate or hydroxide. It physically cannot ever happen as the dreamers wish.

Getting back to topic, as a lease vehicle its probably ok. Despite the gnashing of teeth most people come up with about range, how often do we do hundreds of miles in one hit? Its Golf sized, hatchbqck, so probably eminently practical for daily life.

I wouldn't purchase one - theyre still using air cooled batteries, which is not conducive with a long life, and its not terribly rare to find mark 1 versions for sale with as little as 30 miles range left jn them - but as a lease deal the risk is someone elses. Id be inclined to go for it.

Who would pay for your charging point? Cheap they are not, and you don't want to be paying for a proproetory item that may not be future proof (there are 4 main standards, and its unclear which will ultimately prevail long term). Volvo paid for ours as part of the deal when buying the car so that was painless, but not sure how that would work with a lease. You can, of course, charge off regular mains, but its a messy ballache with extension leads, which isn't recommended, and takes a loonnngggg time. Questions over aside, that id be inclined to go for it if the lease and fuel cost works out to be competitive over a similar sized ICE car.


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## gzoom (19 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> Who would pay for your charging point? Cheap they are not, and you don't want to be paying for a proproetory item that may not be future proof (there are 4 main standards, and its unclear which will ultimately prevail long term).



Its not 2015 any more, standards are now all set .

EU/UK charge ports are now *ALL* *Type 2 for home/AC and CCS for rapid.

*The Leaf + Lexus UX still uses CHADEMO for rapid charging, but for the charge point at home they are still Type 2 - same as all other EVs.

The charge port on rapid chargers are fixed so you cannot do anything about it, CHADEMO is currently still as popular as CCS due to the number of Leafs around, but over time they will disappear and all rapid chargers in the EU will be CCS only.


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## oldworld (19 Apr 2021)

I like the idea of an EV but every time I come across a thread like this it convinces me my decision to wait a few more years is the correct one. 
The industry is making great strides but a way to go before I feel confident in spending the money to get one.
Once charging points are more common and evolution of new technology has slowed, then I may take the risk.
I keep cars a long time 10+ years and it's something I'd like to keep doing.


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## mustang1 (19 Apr 2021)

As a simple A-to-B car, electric cars are THE way to go. You don't have to warm the engine up to operating temperature, you just get in and go (at full pelt if you want to). There is no noise and as mentioned above, the cars a re more spacious than you think. A Golf size Leaf will have more interior room than the Golf.

Main dealer servicing is a cr4p show. With so few items needing servicing, the dealers still want to charge high prices for not doing much, so look into that. Nissan increased prices of servicing from "very good" to "you're having a laugh" ("...but we gotta make a profit" they complain). Still, waaay cheaper servicing than those pesky German companies, they are REALLY annoying with their service plans costs.

IDK much about the new Leaf, but I read something like they dont have intelligent battery cooling systems on some (or all?) models. For me I dont think it's a big deal as a runabout but you may need the cooling. Again, IDK the details, but I think the more efficient cabin heating is available in the 2nd gen Leaf which was only available on some models of the 1st gen Leaf which you may find worth the cost during winter.


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## byegad (19 Apr 2021)

We have a Toyota Corolla Touring Hybrid 1.8l Atkinson cycle engine. Give that we will likely change cars before 2030, it's likely that a plug in Hybrid will replace it. 
If I'm still driving in 2030 then electric it will be and hopefully the charger for the plug in Hybrid will be the type we can use then. 
However given my then age, and assuming I'm still even around, that's not certain.


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## MontyVeda (19 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> ... You can, of course, charge off regular mains, but its a messy ballache with extension leads, which isn't recommended, and takes a loonnngggg time.
> ...


it's one lead, and can be fully charged over night.. so not really a ballache


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## Andrew_Culture (19 Apr 2021)

I've had a Prius for years and love it. I can't get a plugin electric car as I have no front garden and the cable would trip up pedestrians passing my house!


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## Bazzer (19 Apr 2021)

I know you have mentioned range limitations, but I would definitely be looking into would be real world mileage, not the advertising guff and whether that still suites your anticipated journeys. Driven with care, on a pleasant day (say 15C), with no electrics on such as heating and a journey with little stop/start, I can achieve 93% of what VW claim is the battery range. On a mid winter frosty morning, headlights, heating the cabin, heated seats, heated mirrors and glass, that percentage would bomb to around 43%, were I to have all of that equipment on for whole of the battery charge.
You will find some videos on YouTube about real world mileage. Carwow is one which springs to mind I saw about a month ago.


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## Archie_tect (19 Apr 2021)

We've sold our old Polo and replaced our contracted diesel SEAT Leon estate with a pre-reg e-hybrid Leon estate.

There are some fantastic pre-reg deals if you search for them- we got ours just under 4 months after registration with 2100 miles on it £10,400 cheaper than the cost of ordering a factory build new one. [Pentagon SEAT are running 3 hatchback Leons if you want to check them out on Autotrader.]

Our 'real-world' experience of the plug-in hybrid so far:

It's used just under 3 gallons of petrol to do 350 miles mostly used picking it up from the SEAT garage in Oldham... plugs into a socket in the garage overnight which costs up to £1.80 which gets us over 34 miles [most journeys are less than that so far] before the petrol engine starts to cut in depending on the outside temperature. When it was -1 degC one morning it managed 29 miles.

Once I get the 4G connected to the car it will be possible to programme any longer journeys so that the sat-nav saves electric mode for hold-ups and city centre driving where it's most effective. Looking into an Economy 7 type electric provider when the present provider deal runs out which will make overnight charging cheaper and we can run the heavy electric usage stuff overnight.

Just got approval for workplace charging points with a grant from HMRC so checking out our local registered electrician for cost of installation.

All looks very promising and, being a plug-in hybrid it's a VW DSG automatic which saves my dodgy left knee from all those gear changes on the heavy diesel clutch!


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## gzoom (19 Apr 2021)

oldworld said:


> I like the idea of an EV but every time I come across a thread like this it convinces me my decision to wait a few more years is the correct one.
> The industry is making great strides but a way to go before I feel confident in spending the money to get one.
> Once charging points are more common and evolution of new technology has slowed, then I may take the risk.
> I keep cars a long time 10+ years and it's something I'd like to keep doing.



Our current EV is already coming up to 4 years old 40K, I plan to keep it at least 8 years.

This weekend it took 6 of us + 3 bikes to the local park, once lock down ends properly we have a 750 mile road trip planned fully loaded. 

The EV technology on the whole is good enough already, its the cost that needs to come down.


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## cougie uk (19 Apr 2021)

Love our Leaf. Got it in August and took it on holiday the next day. Charging on the motorway was far easier than I'd thought. 

What is your usage like ? Daily commute ? Miles per month ? Holiday plans ?

I reckon even on a normal tariff our fuel bills are 1/4 of what they would be in petrol. 

I do have a pod point now but pretty sure I could have coped on a normal socket.

If you have off road parking I'd go for it and enjoy cheap motoring. I guess when most cars are EVs then it'll be paying for use of the roads to raise tax so fill your boots whilst you can. 

Ours was 2 years old when we got it and we hope to keep it for another 10 or so. Battery life isn't much of an issue. I think the leaf has an 8 year guarantee on the battery.


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## MontyVeda (19 Apr 2021)

Bazzer said:


> I know you have mentioned range limitations, but I would definitely be looking into would be real world mileage, not the advertising guff and whether that still suites your anticipated journeys. Driven with care, on a pleasant day (say 15C), with no electrics on such as heating and a journey with little stop/start, I can achieve 93% of what VW claim is the battery range. *On a mid winter frosty morning, headlights, heating the cabin, heated seats, heated mirrors and glass, that percentage would bomb to around 43%*, were I to have all of that equipment on for whole of the battery charge.
> You will find some videos on YouTube about real world mileage. Carwow is one which springs to mind I saw about a month ago.


I think that's the only drawback of EV... ICE produce their electricity for heating, lighting, etc. on the fly whereas EV, everything drains the battery. 

A friend has the nissan electric van, but he's the sort who's always running late which means he ends up rushing at 70mph instead of driving at 56 to get maximum efficiency, than has to stop and wait half an hour at the rapid charger, before rushing even more. I think you need a certain mindset and i don't think my friend has it


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## Bazzer (19 Apr 2021)

MontyVeda said:


> I think that's the only drawback of EV... ICE produce their electricity for heating, lighting, etc. on the fly whereas EV, everything drains the battery.
> 
> A friend has the nissan electric van, but he's the sort who's always running late which means he ends up rushing at 70mph instead of driving at 56 to get maximum efficiency, than has to stop and wait half an hour at the rapid charger, before rushing even more. I think you need a certain mindset and i don't think my friend has it


I think may depend upon the vehicle, but certainly with my PHEV Golf, and it may be the same with @Archie_tect 's Leon, as it has the same parent company, it is possible to have the ICE to travel and the battery running everything else. 
I would agree, I think you need a certain mindset to get the best out of them, but to some extent that is the case with an ICE. It is just that the ready availability of petrol and diesel and the speed with which refuelling can take place, hasn't encouraged that mentality.


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## BrumJim (19 Apr 2021)

Bazzer said:


> I think may depend upon the vehicle, but certainly with my PHEV Golf, and it may be the same with @Archie_tect 's Leon, as it has the same parent company, it is possible to have the ICE to travel and the battery running everything else.
> I would agree, I think you need a certain mindset to get the best out of them, but to some extent that is the case with an ICE. It is just that the ready availability of petrol and diesel and the speed with which refuelling can take place, hasn't encouraged that mentality.



Running a Renault Zoe which has a standard 12v car battery. This runs the normal car electrics including lights, radio and fan.

The traction battery runs the motors, but also the heating and ventilation. However the heating is a heat pump rather than resistance heating, and hence much more efficient than using heating elements. Therefore it also has the benefit of pre-conditioning, i.e. I can press a button from my house which will start up the heating/cooling system which will get the interior up to the correct temperature before I get in. For an ICE car you need the engine running for cooling, and running for some time to get space heating. 

In terms of the mindset, there is very much a change. You can charge your car at home every night as you sleep, so no need to waste all that ICE time sitting in a petrol station. Also on longer journeys you can charge the car as you discharge your bladder and recharge your stomach, again very different to looking after yourself first and the car later, as you don't wan't to eat and drink with the smell of petrol / diesel all around you.

The only way electrics really fail is for very long distance driving, where people drive long stints in shifts, eating on the move, and therefore don't take those breaks. But as you see with the SUV trend, people like to buy cars based on what they think they might do one day, rather than what the car will actually be used for.


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## Archie_tect (19 Apr 2021)

Bazzer said:


> I think may depend upon the vehicle, but certainly with my PHEV Golf, and it may be the same with @Archie_tect 's Leon, as it has the same parent company, it is possible to have the ICE to travel and the battery running everything else.
> I would agree, I think you need a certain mindset to get the best out of them, but to some extent that is the case with an ICE. It is just that the ready availability of petrol and diesel and the speed with which refuelling can take place, hasn't encouraged that mentality.


We don't bother with heated seats [or the really odd heated steering wheel?!], we just wear coats when it's cold and open the windows when the sun's blazing in... might need the AC on when it's mid-summer but we can heat or cool the car while it's plugged in to the electric to avoid wasting the battery.


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## midlife (19 Apr 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> We've sold our old Polo and replaced our contracted diesel SEAT Leon estate with a pre-reg e-hybrid Leon estate.
> 
> There are some fantastic pre-reg deals if you search for them- we got ours just under 4 months after registration with 2100 miles on it £10,400 cheaper than the cost of ordering a factory build new one. [Pentagon SEAT are running 3 hatchback Leons if you want to check them out on Autotrader.]
> 
> ...



just out of curiosity how much did you pay after the ten grand was knocked off ?


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## Archie_tect (19 Apr 2021)

midlife said:


> just out of curiosity how much did you pay after the ten grand was knocked off ?


£23,000. a new one of the same spec is £33,600 assuming that you don't add any factory options and get standard paint and wheels! [less the money for the trade-in on our old Polo].

I refuse to spend more on a car than our first house cost in 1984- it's getting close mind now!

I couldn't justify the cost of a new car now- especially not the £35,000-£40,000 for the latest technology family sized EVs.


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## Gunk (19 Apr 2021)

The motoring equivalent of a Beco washing machine.


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## TheDoctor (19 Apr 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Love our Leaf. Got it in August and took it on holiday the next day. Charging on the motorway was far easier than I'd thought.
> 
> What is your usage like ? Daily commute ? Miles per month ? Holiday plans ?
> 
> ...


We don't have a daily commute any more - my last few jobs have been within cycling / e-bike distance, and we do about 5000 miles a year. Long journeys tend to be by train and maybe a hire car at t'other end - I've not driven to the Alps for about five years, and I don't fancy doing it again. We have off-road parking


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## cougie uk (19 Apr 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> We don't have a daily commute any more - my last few jobs have been within cycling / e-bike distance, and we do about 5000 miles a year. Long journeys tend to be by train and maybe a hire car at t'other end - I've not driven to the Alps for about five years, and I don't fancy doing it again. We have off-road parking


Perfect then. Long distance driving isn't much fun now with the traffic. We prefer the train for long stuff too. 

You could even look at a first generation leaf if you don't need much range.


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## gzoom (19 Apr 2021)

@TheDoctor Go for it, I really do have found memories of our Leaf, I remember been super excited to see 3 EVs within 20 meters of each other!






This is the dashcam footage of the 'current' Leaf that I caught sight off around the Midlands years ago, got me excited at the time!!






Its a real shame Nissan didn't have the finances or guts to bring the IDS concept to life, this was suppose to be the car that replaced the Leaf in 2017/18, I would have bought one!


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## TheDoctor (19 Apr 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Perfect then. Long distance driving isn't much fun now with the traffic. We prefer the train for long stuff too.
> 
> You could even look at a first generation leaf if you don't need much range.


I think we're doing a lease this time.


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## cougie uk (19 Apr 2021)

gzoom said:


> @TheDoctor Go for it, I really do have found memories of our Leaf, I remember been super excited to see 3 EVs within 20 meters of each other!
> 
> View attachment 584790
> 
> ...


I can see the influences but concept cars are usually a bit OTT.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Apr 2021)

brother in laws bought a Tesla Model 3, traded in his X5. For me I’ll hang onto my tree killer disco 4 for as long as I can. There is not a EV vehicle that can do all that I need at this moment in time. However that’s not to say I wouldn’t consider it as a second car. The future as I see is not electric , the battery tech needs to change improve and the raw elements needed to make the batteries is hardly a green !!!


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## oldworld (20 Apr 2021)

gzoom said:


> Our current EV is already coming up to 4 years old 40K, I plan to keep it at least 8 years.
> 
> This weekend it took 6 of us + 3 bikes to the local park, once lock down ends properly we have a 750 mile road trip planned fully loaded.
> 
> ...


Please report back in 8 years.. There should be plenty of places to charge available by then.
I may be wrong but feel the industry is about where they were with Ic cars in the twenties. Come the thirties cars things had improved enormously.


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## Archie_tect (20 Apr 2021)

One thing to watch for if travelling longer distances beyond your PHEV's electric range is that it costs about 15p/mile to charge at motorway services compared to 11p/mile to use the petrol engine, so using motorway charging points is more expensive.

Though I haven't worked it out this is probably true of full EV charging too- rapid charging rates per mile at motorway services would be probably be more than the rate per mile for petrol bought at supermarkets... so only charge at home or at work!


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## TheDoctor (20 Apr 2021)

What is this 'work' of which you speak? 
Actually, the job-before-last in Letchworth, I commuted by e-bike and always charged it there as well. I did have enough range to do a round trip and then some, but I preferred to have a full battery. Just in case, like.
Anyways, if it's much more than a hundred miles or so, I'd sooner take the train if possible.


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## Pale Rider (20 Apr 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> What is this 'work' of which you speak?
> Actually, the job-before-last in Letchworth, I commuted by e-bike and always charged it there as well. I did have enough range to do a round trip and then some, but I preferred to have a full battery. Just in case, like.
> Anyways, if it's much more than a hundred miles or so, I'd sooner take the train if possible.



Shame you aren't a real doctor.

The nurse I know who has bought a Tesla tells me there is free to staff charging at the bay in the staff car park.

So she's gone from about thirty quid a week fuel costs for commuting to zero quid a week.

Very handy.


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## cougie uk (20 Apr 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> One thing to watch for if travelling longer distances beyond your PHEV's electric range is that it costs about 15p/mile to charge at motorway services compared to 11p/mile to use the petrol engine, so using motorway charging points is more expensive.
> 
> Though I haven't worked it out this is probably true of full EV charging too- rapid charging rates per mile at motorway services would be probably be more than the rate per mile for petrol bought at supermarkets... so only charge at home or at work!



Just done the sums on ecotricity. 
30p per kWh. 
Under 10p per mile for me. 

If I got my electric from ecotricity then it's half that price. 15p per kWh so under 5p a mile.


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## Bazzer (20 Apr 2021)

My angry pixies are charged at 11.8p per Kwh, so roughly half the cost per mile as the petrol engine.


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## MontyVeda (20 Apr 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> brother in laws bought a Tesla Model 3, traded in his X5. For me I’ll hang onto my tree killer disco 4 for as long as I can. There is not a EV vehicle that can do all that I need at this moment in time. However that’s not to say I wouldn’t consider it as a second car. The future as I see is not electric , *the battery tech needs to change improve* and the raw elements needed to make the batteries is hardly a green !!!


This was the problem when mobile phones first emerged, the batteries were a; huge and b; crap. As a result, battery tech did change and improve.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Apr 2021)

Yep indeed , so I’ll wait for now  . Nothing out there that does all what I need which is not cramped and can tow my twin axle caravan


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## icowden (20 Apr 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep indeed , so I’ll wait for now  . Nothing out there that does all what I need which is not cramped and can tow my twin axle caravan


One word.
Cybertruck

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/cybertruck

Also - just about any Tesla can pull a twin axle caravan.


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## MrGrumpy (20 Apr 2021)

icowden said:


> One word.
> Cybertruck
> 
> https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/cybertruck
> ...


Just not very far without charging


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## icowden (21 Apr 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just not very far without charging



Depends what you call "very far". Cybertruck will get you 500 miles. Possibly more with solar on board. The others between 300-400 miles.


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## MrGrumpy (21 Apr 2021)

Still think I’ll be waiting along time...... if that’s the only option !? Long way to go, fossil fuel will be here for long time yet.


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## cougie uk (21 Apr 2021)

It's quite astonishing how many EVs you see on the road now though. I can't see many petrol stations being around much longer than 2030.


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## icowden (21 Apr 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Still think I’ll be waiting along time...... if that’s the only option !? Long way to go, fossil fuel will be here for long time yet.



True, but most likely in its raw form, in the ground.

Similarly @Drago 's point:-



> The change won't happen. Theres only 40% of the neodymium required to replace every ICE car with a battery one, not to mention the lithium carbonate or hydroxide. It physically cannot ever happen as the dreamers wish.



Is moot as it assumes that the way forward for EV's is 1:1 replacement. Most EV sites think that is unlikely, and we will see fleets of self-driving EVs instead that are far more efficient and in use far more of the time, thus eliminating the need for many (not everybody - but many people) to own an actual car.


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## Pale Rider (22 Apr 2021)

Drago said:


> The change won't happen. Theres only 40% of the neodymium required to replace every ICE car with a battery one, not to mention the lithium carbonate or hydroxide. It physically cannot ever happen as the dreamers wish.



This bold assertion has been made several times, but it's a dangerous one.

There's stuff on the BBC website about mining the materials from the deep seabed.

Those in favour say there's little else down there, so environmental impact is small, those against say different.

Either way, seabed mining may go the same way as most new battery technology - looks good at first blush but doesn't work in practice.

But it might not, so no one can correctly claim conversion to electric vehicles 'physically cannot ever happen as the dreamers wish'.


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## mustang1 (23 Apr 2021)

When you put bikes on the roof rack of an electric car, it's a good idea to ensure they are all aero bikes. I wonder what those dumb bike companies will say about their "aero" claims then, save 50W at a constant 70mph etc...


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## gzoom (23 Apr 2021)

mustang1 said:


> I wonder what those dumb bike companies will say about their "aero" claims then, save 50W at a constant 70mph etc...



Don't give them ideas, I can see the next sales pitch.....

'Our new aero frame will improve range of your electric car by 2 miles at 100mph for 100 miles when going into a head wind compared to last year, that will be £15K please'


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## Pale Rider (23 Apr 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> We've sold our old Polo and replaced our contracted diesel SEAT Leon estate with a pre-reg e-hybrid Leon estate.
> 
> There are some fantastic pre-reg deals if you search for them- we got ours just under 4 months after registration with 2100 miles on it £10,400 cheaper than the cost of ordering a factory build new one. [Pentagon SEAT are running 3 hatchback Leons if you want to check them out on Autotrader.]
> 
> ...



I had a squire at one of these online, not least because it might suit my motoring rather well.

The 'electric premium' is not as much as in some other cases - a comparable nearly new diesel auto Focus estate is about £18k-£19k.

That may be because the Seat has a relatively small battery.

Full electric cars have a 'fuel' cost of around 25% of a diesel.

Not sure where a hybrid stands.

I also wonder about servicing, having both petrol and electric systems to look after is likely to add to the cost.

@Archie_tect won't have had his car serviced yet, but he may be able to assist with the other queries.


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## mustang1 (23 Apr 2021)

gzoom said:


> Don't give them ideas, I can see the next sales pitch.....
> 
> 'Our new aero frame will improve range of your electric car by 2 miles at 100mph for 100 miles when going into a head wind compared to last year, that will be £15K please'


Or or or... better still, increase the capacity of your tesla by having riders on the bikes on the roofrack while you're driving at 100mph for 100 miles. How many can you fit up there, 3 or 4 I reckon. Say, do you use those suction cup roof rack thingies?


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## fossyant (23 Apr 2021)

gzoom said:


> Don't give them ideas, I can see the next sales pitch.....
> 
> 'Our new aero frame will improve range of your electric car by 2 miles at 100mph for 100 miles when going into a head wind compared to last year, that will be £15K please'



Don't put 4 big trail bikes on your roof. Range halves !


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## Archie_tect (23 Apr 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> I had a squire at one of these online, not least because it might suit my motoring rather well.
> 
> The 'electric premium' is not as much as in some other cases - a comparable nearly new diesel auto Focus estate is about £18k-£19k.
> 
> ...


Within 35 miles of home we don't use any petrol at all which is the same across the whole VAG hybrid range [Audi is slightly lower at 29 for some reason] - we are still ridiculously happy about- it costs £1.80 including VAT to recharge the battery to 100% overnight, so only long runs will see any significant petrol use on motorways where it should be doing around 55-60mpg anyway on ECO mode when the engine cuts out coasting or going downhill when it also recharges the battery- offset by the electric motor cutting in in queues.

Having set up SEAST Connect the car will assess satnav journeys to save electric mode for when we start moving, hit hold-ups and in town centres. Averaged 108mpg combined so far including the run back from Oldham so as the local ECO miles build up that will significantly increase. The diesel car averaged 62mpg combined over the 3 years we had it, but our children said I did become a bit of an mpg trip computer obsessive!

Happy so far- we could take out a servicing plan for 2 services for £500+VAT [which I can claim back anyway], and given that they still make a decent profit on their plans to cover any and all situations, I expect servicing will be similar if not cheaper than the diesel overall. I probably won't take out a plan as it only needs an oil change after 10000 miles or a year whichever comes first, and then a service when the car ECU says it needs one- our last diesel only needed one service in 3 years at 23000 miles.

The hybrid was around £3000 more than an equivalent 1.5l TSI petrol Leon ST and £2000 more than a 2.0l diesel... but it was the only hybrid ST in the UK! It should work out £1000 a year cheaper to run if we start to do a similar mileage out of lockdown, and considerably cheaper if we don't!

The review of the Kia e-Niro concluded it was a fantastic car but they are £36000 which is silly money still- that put us off full electric- hoping that next time the R+D on battery manufacture, cost and range together with the fall in prices of full electric will make them a no-brainer choice within five years.


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## cougie uk (23 Apr 2021)

I think the niro does have a fairly big battery. If you don't do long journeys much a smaller battery car would be a cheaper bet. 

You can get a 2 year old leaf for 18k or so.


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## TheDoctor (14 May 2021)

Now widened our scope to look at a Hyundai Ionic too. The full EV version.
We've had Hyundais before and liked them.


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## DRM (16 May 2021)

icowden said:


> Depends what you call "very far". Cybertruck will get you 500 miles. Possibly more with solar on board. The others between 300-400 miles.


I doubt you would get any useful range at all towing an unaerodynamic , 1.7-1.8 tonne twin axle caravan, it’s just not feasible


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## Milzy (16 May 2021)

Electric cars are not the silver bullet that we need.


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## DRM (16 May 2021)

Milzy said:


> Electric cars are not the silver bullet that we need.


It would be more environmentally friendly to just run our existing cars into the ground and then recycle the components, electric vehicles are ok for shorter journeys, but long regular business trips, forget it, you won't get any work done as you'll waste more time stopping to recharge the thing than working.


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## cougie uk (16 May 2021)

DRM said:


> It would be more environmentally friendly to just run our existing cars into the ground and then recycle the components, electric vehicles are ok for shorter journeys, but long regular business trips, forget it, you won't get any work done as you'll waste more time stopping to recharge the thing than working.



The average car does 8700 miles a year. So the average person would need to charge a couple of times a week. 


If you are a sales rep get a Tesla or similar and you can make your phonecalls and catch up on email as you charge. 

It's true that they won't solve congestion. Walking, cycling and public transport should be our first choices.


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## DRM (17 May 2021)

cougie uk said:


> The average car does 8700 miles a year. So the average person would need to charge a couple of times a week.
> 
> 
> If you are a sales rep get a Tesla or similar and you can make your phonecalls and catch up on email as you charge.
> ...


That's not what my work van has done, it's on 11,500 since coming back from new year, I don't think leasing firms would take too kindly to carrying old engine oil and toolboxes in a Tesla, never mind replacing the battery early, the list price is ridiculous too, I reckon I could kill an EV in under 5 years, the range for my job will be hopeless.


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## icowden (17 May 2021)

DRM said:


> I don't think leasing firms would take too kindly to carrying old engine oil and toolboxes in a Tesla, ..., I reckon I could kill an EV in under 5 years, the range for my job will be hopeless.


Sounds like you need a CyberTruck


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## icowden (17 May 2021)

DRM said:


> I doubt you would get any useful range at all towing an unaerodynamic , 1.7-1.8 tonne twin axle caravan, it’s just not feasible



These guys managed 3700 miles towing a caravan with a Tesla X.

https://bensmann.no/towing-caravan-tesla-model-x-europe/


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## cougie uk (17 May 2021)

DRM said:


> That's not what my work van has done, it's on 11,500 since coming back from new year, I don't think leasing firms would take too kindly to carrying old engine oil and toolboxes in a Tesla, never mind replacing the battery early, the list price is ridiculous too, I reckon I could kill an EV in under 5 years, the range for my job will be hopeless.



Thank god that 95% of us aren't doing 35,000 miles a year. You can't spend that much time at jobs with all those hours driving ?


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## MrGrumpy (17 May 2021)

icowden said:


> These guys managed 3700 miles towing a caravan with a Tesla X.
> 
> https://bensmann.no/towing-caravan-tesla-model-x-europe/


Yep a lot more infrastructure in place I bet ? Again, the practicalities of towing with an EV or just not there yet. This switch over to full electric is a false dawn. Its not the panacea that seems to be spouted around. More electric cars more power needed for generation. I`ll wait till I have no choice whatsoever, can see the second hand market doing well on used fossil fuel cars.


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## MrGrumpy (17 May 2021)

DRM said:


> It would be more environmentally friendly to just run our existing cars into the ground and then recycle the components,


I keep my cars quite long, never buy new. I`m a car salesman`s bad dream. My gas guzzling 9yr old Disco 4 will stay with us for as long as its financially viable. Its a workhorse it can carry tonnes of stuff. If i got rid the of the caravan that might change my outlook.


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## icowden (17 May 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep a lot more infrastructure in place I bet ?


A lot more than what? America? UK?

>>Again, the practicalities of towing with an EV or just not there yet.<<

They managed 3700 miles towing with an EV. It's practical.

>> This switch over to full electric is a false dawn. Its not the panacea that seems to be spouted around. <<
It pretty much is.

>>More electric cars more power needed for generation. <<

They tend to be more efficient than gas guzzlers - so no - less power needed:



> Despite more than 100 years of refinements, the internal combustion engine used in cars just isn’t that good at converting fuel into movement. Even in the most efficient petrol engines, only around 12-30 percent of the energy in the fuel ever makes it to the wheels or other useful functions. The rest is wasted as noise and heat.
> 
> Electric motors, by contrast, are more like 77 percent efficient – they get more than twice as many miles out of the same amount of energy. This efficiency gap is so big that even in Poland where most electricity comes from coal-fired power stations, electric cars emit about 25% less carbon than their fossil fuelled equivalents.



>>I`ll wait till I have no choice whatsoever, can see the second hand market doing well on used fossil fuel cars.<<

Fair enough. Personally I can't wait to go greener and cleaner.


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## DRM (17 May 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Yep a lot more infrastructure in place I bet ? Again, the practicalities of towing with an EV or just not there yet. This switch over to full electric is a false dawn. Its not the panacea that seems to be spouted around. More electric cars more power needed for generation. I`ll wait till I have no choice whatsoever, can see the second hand market doing well on used fossil fuel cars.


They only got 125 miles between charges, with no wriggle room,my old 200Tdi Disco could realistically tow a similarly sized caravan from West Yorkshire, to Portsmouth, catch the ferry, and fill up again in France, 2x ex MOD Jerry cans of diesel would get us from Cherbourg to the Southern Vendee without having to fill up till Monday AM when the fuel stations reopened, so around 500 miles with one 20 minute stop to refuel, with diesel left over, the Tesla would need 4x stops at an hour a go, not good if the traffic backs up and it looks like you might miss your crossing, the future? I think not.


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## DRM (17 May 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Thank god that 95% of us aren't doing 35,000 miles a year. You can't spend that much time at jobs with all those hours driving ?


Around 28,000 a year, and yes for my job, careful planning and hitting a post code area means I’m doing around 90 jobs per month, EV in van form would be hopeless


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## DRM (17 May 2021)

icowden said:


> >>Again, the practicalities of towing with an EV or just not there yet.<<
> 
> They managed 3700 miles towing with an EV. It's practical.


But how long did it take to do that, Max range 125 miles, not good enough, and that was at best, Chuck a windy day into the equation and they might as well give up, 3700 miles is 30 stops and 30 hours of refuelling, compare that with 8 stops, and probably 2.5 hours taken to do it with an elderly Disco, as for having to unhitch the caravan, in Britain I’d guarantee it would be stolen, with no comeback from your insurance.


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## MrGrumpy (17 May 2021)

I dare say we are a minority in what we require from our vehicles. However it will need addressed, towing with a EV is a way off. However hybrid might be the option for us. Do the new rules due to come in also mean the end of hybrids ? Talking about the sale of new vehicles of course.


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## MrGrumpy (17 May 2021)

icowden said:


> They managed 3700 miles towing with an EV. It's practical.
> 
> Not in one go did they !?
> 
> ...


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## TheDoctor (17 May 2021)

To answer a few points upthread...
Neodymium reserves are about 8 million tonnes source. A motor needs about 1 kg of neodymium, so we've got enough for everyone in the world to have an EV.
Towing a caravan a few thousand miles strikes me as a bit of an edge case, and certainly not something I'm planning on doing!
As for driving 28000 miles a year for work, that's about 110 miles a day (assuming 253 working days per year), That's easily doable in a Leaf or Ioniq, let alone something with a bigger range. Charge up overnight, and you've saved time going to fill up once a week.


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## DRM (18 May 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> To answer a few points upthread...
> Neodymium reserves are about 8 million tonnes source. A motor needs about 1 kg of neodymium, so we've got enough for everyone in the world to have an EV.
> Towing a caravan a few thousand miles strikes me as a bit of an edge case, and certainly not something I'm planning on doing!
> As for driving 28000 miles a year for work, that's about 110 miles a day (assuming 253 working days per year), That's easily doable in a Leaf or Ioniq, let alone something with a bigger range. Charge up overnight, and you've saved time going to fill up once a week.


Not once you've loaded it up with tools, parts, service kits, sundries, lubricants, waste oil for return, 2x jacks and blocks, lifting slings & shackles, the range would fall off a cliff carrying that lot, then throw a cold, dark winters day in to just to add to the range reduction, so in my case it's pie in the sky, then try charging it up using someone else's electricity, whilst working as the van needs to be near the thing your working on, all companies I've been to that have charging points are provided for their (Directors) vehicles, in the car park, far away from the warehouse round the back, and not anyone else's use so your utterly stuffed.
The other thing is sometimes I'm local, sometimes I can be near the Scottish borders, average miles per day isn't the reality


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## icowden (18 May 2021)

DRM said:


> But how long did it take to do that, Max range 125 miles, not good enough, and that was at best, Chuck a windy day into the equation and they might as well give up, 3700 miles is 30 stops and 30 hours of refuelling, compare that with 8 stops, and probably 2.5 hours taken to do it with an elderly Disco, as for having to unhitch the caravan, in Britain I’d guarantee it would be stolen, with no comeback from your insurance.



I'm impressed that you can drive 7 and 3 quarter hours in a day without stopping. I'd be exhausted. Stopping for 30 minutes after 2 hours drive seems sensible to me, if a little more frequent than one would like. The cost saving on fuel is immense though. Also remember that this was a 2017 Tesla X - Tesla have improved the range a *little* since then (but not a lot).

As I have said before, for the range that you want to do, you need a CyberTruck tri-motor with 500+ miles of range:-

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/tesl...ays the Cybertruck has,will have on the range.


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## TheDoctor (18 May 2021)

DRM said:


> Not once you've loaded it up with tools, parts, service kits, sundries, lubricants, waste oil for return, 2x jacks and blocks, lifting slings & shackles, the range would fall off a cliff carrying that lot, then throw a cold, dark winters day in to just to add to the range reduction, so in my case it's pie in the sky, then try charging it up using someone else's electricity, whilst working as the van needs to be near the thing your working on, all companies I've been to that have charging points are provided for their (Directors) vehicles, in the car park, far away from the warehouse round the back, and not anyone else's use so your utterly stuffed.
> The other thing is sometimes I'm local, sometimes I can be near the Scottish borders, average miles per day isn't the reality


You don't like the limitations of EVs. Yes, we get that 
Seriously, sounds like my usage case is different to yours. I think we'll be fine.


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## icowden (18 May 2021)

DRM said:


> Not once you've loaded it up with tools, parts, service kits, sundries, lubricants, waste oil for return, 2x jacks and blocks, lifting slings & shackles, the range would fall off a cliff carrying that lot, then throw a cold, dark winters day in to just to add to the range reduction, so in my case it's pie in the sky,



Nope - it's not pie in the sky, it's cybertruck tri-motor. 500+ miles can pull 7 tonnes. Large pickup style area for your waste oil etc.


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## Pale Rider (18 May 2021)

As range creeps over 200 miles that ceases to be a genuine problem for more and more drivers.

Recharging en route may require a different mindset, as will the amount of 'fuel' you carry for a journey.

I pulled into a service station a while ago where the electric charge points were next to the cafe/toilet block entrance, but the fuel station was a short distance away along the service road.

Had I been in an EV, it would have been more convenient to plug it in for 30-45mins while I supped my coffee and pratted around on here than it would have been refuelling at the service station.

No stinky smell of diesel, either, which almost always gets on my hands or the soles of my shoes whatever precautions I take.


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## TheDoctor (18 May 2021)

That! I don't like driving for more than three hours without a break anyway, and 200 miles will get me to most places I ever go.


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## Pale Rider (18 May 2021)

Same here.

Enforcing stops every two or three hours would have a positive, but difficult to measure, effect on road safety.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

icowden said:


> Fair enough. Personally I can't wait to go greener and cleaner.


I think it has to be proven that EV vehicle is greener over it's whole lifespan than an ICE vehicle


icowden said:


> Nope - it's not pie in the sky, it's cybertruck tri-motor. 500+ miles can pull 7 tonnes. Large pickup style area for your waste oil etc.


Which the secret cost of is? £100K+? How many contracting firms will be able to afford one, let alone a fleet, that is aimed at the small penis Americans to try to get them out of their 4x4's not a practical option to a Transit, Movano etc.


Pale Rider said:


> As range creeps over 200 miles that ceases to be a genuine problem for more and more drivers.
> 
> Recharging en route may require a different mindset, as will the amount of 'fuel' you carry for a journey.
> 
> ...


Although I agree about the locations, there are differences, potentially the EV drivers are being forced to stop, they have no choice but to wait an hour to charge, similarly the ICE driver, could stop have their brew then get their fuel on the way out.

I would love an EV as most of our driving would be covered by one with occasional OMG moments, I had a 200 mile round trip to rescue my sons partner who is a diabetic the other night, their car broke down & she was short on insulin okay some bad planning on their behalf, but they didn't expect to breakdown. Were also off to Norfolk on Saturday 150 miles each way, presumably it can be done, but any squeaky bum moments about range would not be good for my anxiety.

But for me the biggest drawback is cost, I feel that the current costs of vehicles both ICE & EV are unrealistic, I'm not prepared even if I could afford it to spend a whole years wages on a vehicle,


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## cougie uk (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> I would love an EV as most of our driving would be covered by one with occasional OMG moments, I had a 200 mile round trip to rescue my sons partner who is a diabetic the other night, their car broke down & she was short on insulin okay some bad planning on their behalf, but they didn't expect to breakdown. Were also off to Norfolk on Saturday 150 miles each way, presumably it can be done, but any squeaky bum moments about range would not be good for my anxiety.
> 
> But for me the biggest drawback is cost, I feel that the current costs of vehicles both ICE & EV are unrealistic, I'm not prepared even if I could afford it to spend a whole years wages on a vehicle,



We picked our leaf up on the Thursday and went off on holiday to the lakes 150 miles away the next day. No drama at all. There are chargers at every Mway station and each town has facilities too. We didn't have a charger at home so just slow charged off the mains overnight. 

EVs are more reliable than ICE cars so your 200 mile journey might not have been needed if their car was an EV ?

Cars are expensive but by the time the switch happens there will be plenty of second hand EVs to choose from. I'd not be worrying yet.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Cars are expensive but by the time the switch happens there will be plenty of second hand EVs to choose from. I'd not be worrying yet.


Of which the batteries will already be nowhere near their peak or feasibly replaced, don't get me wrong I would welcome the world to go EV, I just don't think it's the answer.

ps, of the things I do worry about, this is not one of them


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## icowden (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Which the secret cost of is? £100K+? How many contracting firms will be able to afford one, let alone a fleet, that is aimed at the small penis Americans to try to get them out of their 4x4's not a practical option to a Transit, Movano etc.
> 
> But for me the biggest drawback is cost, I feel that the current costs of vehicles both ICE & EV are unrealistic, I'm not prepared even if I could afford it to spend a whole years wages on a vehicle,



I agree with you re cost. Cybertruck is cheaper than you think. In the US it will be *from* $39,900 (I suspect that the trimotor is probably going to be closer to that $100k mark though once you add on all the extras). It looks like it may not come directly to Europe / UK as it's absolutely huge (6m long, 2m wide) and therefore very awkward to drive outside of North America. However a smaller version is mooted.

Personally I'm looking forward to seeing if I can afford a Tesla Y when it comes out in the UK!


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## gzoom (18 May 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> That! I don't like driving for more than three hours without a break anyway, and 200 miles will get me to most places I ever go.



When we bought our EV, I had the choice to pay more for a bigger battery version, but decided not to as we didn't need the range. 

50K+ miles and I still wouldn't pay £££ for more range than 200 miles or so. Last weekend we went to see family in Wales. Driving at the speed limit, even with no traffic it took 2h30min to cover 160 miles with range to spare. With a 5 year old in the car I was actually ready to stop after 2hrs or so!!








For the trip back, we actually did stop to break up the journey. We stopped at Rugby services where *24 *350KW chargers had been installed. Even though our car can 'only' charge at 110KW, it went from 17% charge to near 50% by the time I had walked into the service, had a wee, got an coffee


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## gzoom (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Of which the batteries will already be nowhere near their peak or feasibly replaced, don't get me wrong I would welcome the world to go EV, I just don't think it's the answer.



The Model S Tesla has been onsale since 2013, in the US Tesla now offer owners of older cars a 'new' 90kWh battery for $20K. $20K is alot of money but its ALOT cheaper than buying a brand new EV with a 90kWh pack - You need about £50K+ for that.

We plan to keep our car till my daughter is old enough to drive, so 10 years+ to go, its currently 4 years old and the battery is showing 5% degradation. I plan on replacing the battery in another 4-5 years or so, when I suspect the price of a new pack will be lower than $20k.


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## gzoom (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> But for me the biggest drawback is cost, I feel that the current costs of vehicles both ICE & EV are unrealistic,



You are not wrong, but this is not going to change any time soon. 

Our Model X back in 2016 when we ordered it for £71k. The 'cheapest' same version today is actually over £100K!!!

Given Tesla claims the cost of batteries have fallen significant since 2016, I personally don't understand why EVs still cost so much, and in the case of Tesla *MORE *than in the past .

If brands like Tesla are serious about mass EV adoption getting EV prices down to an affordable level is key, but it seems like prices are actually going the other way .


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> If brands like Tesla are serious about mass EV adoption


That is a very good question, I very much doubt it, why build 10 cars & make £5k on each when you can build 1 car & make £50K Elon Musk is so far up his own ego, he's interested in money, not ecology.


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## DRM (18 May 2021)

icowden said:


> Nope - it's not pie in the sky, it's cybertruck tri-motor. 500+ miles can pull 7 tonnes. Large pickup style area for your waste oil etc.


So if someone has passed their test after 1997, they can’t drive it as it would be classed as a 7.5 tonne truck in the UK, before that you’re ok on grandfather right’s, using it for business will involve a tachograph, drivers hours and breaks, so yes it’s pie in the sky, also it’s as fugly as sin, so no one has come up with a Transit Custom size vehicle with good range, if they did , then no problem


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## DRM (18 May 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> You don't like the limitations of EVs. Yes, we get that
> Seriously, sounds like my usage case is different to yours. I think we'll be fine.


Limitations for businesses, for personal transport, I think it would work for us, everyones needs for a vehicle are different, I’ve just pointed out that it’s not all perfect with an EV


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## Scottish Scrutineer (20 May 2021)

DRM said:


> They only got 125 miles between charges, with no wriggle room,my old 200Tdi Disco could realistically tow a similarly sized caravan from West Yorkshire, to Portsmouth, catch the ferry, and fill up again in France, 2x ex MOD Jerry cans of diesel would get us from Cherbourg to the Southern Vendee without having to fill up till Monday AM when the fuel stations reopened, so around 500 miles with one 20 minute stop to refuel, with diesel left over, the Tesla would need 4x stops at an hour a go, not good if the traffic backs up and it looks like you might miss your crossing, the future? I think not.


How big is your bladder, or do you relieve yourself in a bottle as you trundle down the M-Way? Most of us would follow the advice to take a break every couple of hours, if not to replenish ourselves and stretch our legs, but to check the vehicle. 
With an EV, you'd use that opportunity to recharge the battery. It just needs a change of mindset.
BTW, my background is road haulage where a 800Km (500 mile) day was pretty common. I also used to regularly drive from Bristol or London home near Dundee after a day's work. I'm fairly sure that if I was still doing that sort of work, I could change my travel to accommodate using an EV, especially now as usable ranges are increasing. 



DRM said:


> So if someone has passed their test after 1997, they can’t drive it as it would be classed as a 7.5 tonne truck in the UK, before that you’re ok on grandfather right’s, using it for business will involve a tachograph, drivers hours and breaks, so yes it’s pie in the sky, also it’s as fugly as sin, so no one has come up with a Transit Custom size vehicle with good range, if they did , then no problem


Ford are getting there https://www.ford.co.uk/future-vehicles/new-e-transit


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## Phaeton (20 May 2021)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> How big is your bladder, or do you relieve yourself in a bottle as you trundle down the M-Way?


Never done that


Scottish Scrutineer said:


> Most of us would follow the advice to take a break every couple of hours, if not to replenish ourselves and stretch our legs, but to check the vehicle.


In 40+ years of driving I have never done that unless I felt there was something wrong with the vehicle, including many HGV trips which would often involve setting off & not pulling over until the Tacho insisted I did, which I think is 4.5 hours, but 10 years since I drove one so not 100% confident I remember exactly. I've also driven from South Yorks to Cornwall non stop on several occasions in diesel cars whose range is 600+ miles.


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## DRM (20 May 2021)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> How big is your bladder, or do you relieve yourself in a bottle as you trundle down the M-Way? Most of us would follow the advice to take a break every couple of hours, if not to replenish ourselves and stretch our legs, but to check the vehicle.
> With an EV, you'd use that opportunity to recharge the battery. It just needs a change of mindset.
> BTW, my background is road haulage where a 800Km (500 mile) day was pretty common. I also used to regularly drive from Bristol or London home near Dundee after a day's work. I'm fairly sure that if I was still doing that sort of work, I could change my travel to accommodate using an EV, especially now as usable ranges are increasing.
> 
> ...


At no point did I claim all in one go, it was comparing total stopping time to refuel excluding comfort breaks, as for the use of a bottle, why? In a caravan you have all your own facilities with you, no need to foul the lay-bys , and I also put that for personal use I could just as easily run an EV, for work, in my job,not a cat in hells chance.


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## DRM (20 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Never done that
> In 40+ years of driving I have never done that unless I felt there was something wrong with the vehicle, including many HGV trips which would often involve setting off & not pulling over until the Tacho insisted I did, which I think is 4.5 hours, but 10 years since I drove one so not 100% confident I remember exactly. I've also driven from South Yorks to Cornwall non stop on several occasions in diesel cars whose range is 600+ miles.


Exactly, my understanding is you can basically do 4.5 hours driving, then have a 3/4 hour break, then go do another 4.5 hours, I think you can go up to 10 hours per day occasionally, but I’m not that up on it


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## MrGrumpy (20 May 2021)

As mentioned a change in mindset , is needed and I hold my hands up to that. Still going to wait till I'm forced for now. If the tin tent goes, which In all honesty these days unlikely, then I may consider but until then I'll try and keep my very ungreen Disco on the road.


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## Phaeton (21 May 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I'll try and keep my very ungreen Disco on the road.


Which I believe is more ecological for the earth than making a new vehicle, but I have no proof, it would be an interesting research for somebody


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## Scottish Scrutineer (21 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Which I believe is more ecological for the earth than making a new vehicle, but I have no proof, it would be an interesting research for somebody


I should confess to running a VW Caravelle which is now 10 years old and has over 260k miles on it. EVs are not evil, but for many would be a a far better choice than simply purchasing another gas-guzzler. Too many base their vehicle choice on what they imagine they might do, maybe once a year rather than the real journeys that they do for 50 weeks of the year.


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## TheDoctor (21 May 2021)

I actually went back and checked the milage records since we bought the car, using the MOT database. When I stopped driving to work we went straight down to under 5000 miles pa. The furthest I've driven since then was up to near Penrith and back (long story), which would have been tricky on electricity. I'd have hired a car for that, I think, given that I was hiring one later that day anyway (again, long story).
Apart from that, most places we go are within the parameters of a 180 mile range.


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## gzoom (22 May 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> As mentioned a change in mindset , is needed and I hold my hands up to that. Still going to wait till I'm forced for now. If the tin tent goes, which In all honesty these days unlikely, then I may consider but until then I'll try and keep my very ungreen Disco on the road.



A change of mindset is needed, but not just for EVs but in every part of life. How achievable that is arguable. 

The good thing is no one is going to be forced into EVs, plenty of combustion cars will be around, but anyone thinking of spending ££££ on a brand new combustion would be missing out if they didn't consider an EV.

Even so for every nrw EV sold today 20 new combustion car are sold. So the vast majority of UK car buyers are simply now ready yet to make the mental jump to EVs.


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## Kajjal (22 May 2021)

Another way to look at it is if you have two cars one being EV can work with the other handling longer distances and heavier loads when driving as needed. That gets round the lack of range and charging times but not the price of purchase currently.


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## gzoom (22 May 2021)

Long trips in an EV though is perfectly possible today. We have this trip planned for halfterm coming up. This is over 3-4 days, 6 people in the car, and a couple of bikes on the back, cannot wait .


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## MrGrumpy (22 May 2021)

What vehicle is that in that takes 6 people ?


----------



## MrGrumpy (22 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> A change of mindset is needed, but not just for EVs but in every part of life. How achievable that is arguable.
> 
> The good thing is no one is going to be forced into EVs, plenty of combustion cars will be around, but anyone thinking of spending ££££ on a brand new combustion would be missing out if they didn't consider an EV.
> 
> Even so for every nrw EV sold today 20 new combustion car are sold. So the vast majority of UK car buyers are simply now ready yet to make the mental jump to EVs.


Infrastructure is key and it’s something I’m sure will be addressed.


----------



## gzoom (22 May 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> What vehicle is that in that takes 6 people ?



6 seater Model X, best bit is even with 3rd row of seats up the boot can still take x2 full sized suite cases, plus the space in the frunk.

The alternative is to take x2 combustion cars for the trip......Not only is using the EV for the trip better for the environment its also more practical, and cheaper - I have 'free for life' charging on the car at Tesla chargers, so fuel costs for the trip will be well under £10 as I will be paying the B&B for their electricity I use to charge the car.


----------



## Phaeton (22 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> Not only is using the EV for the trip better for the environment its also more practical, and cheaper


I'm still not convince it's better for the environment, yes the emission from the actual vehicle at the time of the actual journey will be, but after you've taken in the material extraction, material milage, the electricity production, the disposal of the toxic materials at end of life? 

Also with regards to being cheaper, c'mon this is an £82K car (basic) I can make that trip several hundreds of times & still work out cheaper.

It's your choice & works for you, but still not convinced EV in it's present form is the future, you don't ever get something for nothing.


----------



## DRM (22 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> 6 seater Model X, best bit is even with 3rd row of seats up the boot can still take x2 full sized suite cases, plus the space in the frunk.
> 
> The alternative is to take x2 combustion cars for the trip......Not only is using the EV for the trip better for the environment its also more practical, and cheaper - I have 'free for life' charging on the car at Tesla chargers, so fuel costs for the trip will be well under £10 as I will be paying the B&B for their electricity I use to charge the car.
> 
> ...


That's all well and good, there are 2x spec Model X priced at either £90,980 or £110,980, those prices are totally OTT unless your incredibly wealthy, or someone else pays for it, by the same token you can get a 7 seat Ford Tourneo Connect, with an 8 speed auto and most expensive metallic paint option for £27,857, that's why sales are 20:1 in the favour of ice vehicles, and theres no need to take 2 cars to get everyone in plus luggage.


----------



## cougie uk (22 May 2021)

Things will have changed radically by the time the ban is in place. 

Keep an eye out for the green marker on number plates and see how many brand new EVs are out there now.


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## Phaeton (22 May 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Things will have changed radically by the time the ban is in place.


You do realise it's only 9 years don't you? I watched Back to the Future in 1985 I'm still waiting for those ideas to come through


cougie uk said:


> Keep an eye out for the green marker on number plates and see how many brand new EVs are out there now.


Are they put on real EV's or the cheats like the BMW I8,


----------



## MrGrumpy (22 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> 6 seater Model X, best bit is even with 3rd row of seats up the boot can still take x2 full sized suite cases, plus the space in the frunk.
> 
> The alternative is to take x2 combustion cars for the trip......Not only is using the EV for the trip better for the environment its also more practical, and cheaper - I have 'free for life' charging on the car at Tesla chargers, so fuel costs for the trip will be well under £10 as I will be paying the B&B for their electricity I use to charge the car.
> 
> ...


Ok didn’t realise they were 6 seaters. Need more main stream options but fear pricing is just too far for some.
BIL bought a model 3 , get the feeling that he ain’t happy with the build quality . Been back twice for paint issues and something else .


----------



## BrumJim (22 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> I'm still not convince it's better for the environment, yes the emission from the actual vehicle at the time of the actual journey will be, but after you've taken in the material extraction, material milage, the electricity production, the disposal of the toxic materials at end of life?
> 
> Also with regards to being cheaper, c'mon this is an £82K car (basic) I can make that trip several hundreds of times & still work out cheaper.
> 
> It's your choice & works for you, but still not convinced EV in it's present form is the future, you don't ever get something for nothing.


Material extraction for petrol and diesel isn't exactly environmentally neutral either. Nor is the material mileage for the engine and all the consumable parts it gets through in its life.


----------



## Phaeton (22 May 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Material extraction for petrol and diesel isn't exactly environmentally neutral either. Nor is the material mileage for the engine and all the consumable parts it gets through in its life.


No argument from me on that one, why I'd like to see a total environmental study but cars are all used in such a varied way I can't see it being conclusive either way.


----------



## midlife (22 May 2021)

Changing car in July, by chance we have a charging port installed on our drive from the last owner. Just for commuting into work and bi monthly 120 mile round trips to Newcastle with work

Have a soft spot for a Mini so was thinking about £4k for an older used one, anything equivalent for an EV cost wise?


----------



## Phaeton (22 May 2021)

Renault Zoe is probably your only option, but you don't own the battery it's leased in most instances


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## Tenkaykev (22 May 2021)

Something I’ve noticed when out for my evening walk is the growing number of properties with charging points. At first it was the recent new builds where the pattern seems to be House / small piece of garden / parking space with charger. More recently they are popping up on existing properties. A recent newspaper article ( Guardian?) mentioned people renting out parking space on their driveways complete with charging facilities. Interesting times…


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## lane (22 May 2021)

I could easily manage with an EV. If someone buys me one I will be very pleased. Otherwise it is totally not economically viable for me so will stick with fossil fuel when buying my next second hand car.


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## midlife (22 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Renault Zoe is probably your only option, but you don't own the battery it's leased in most instances



Cheapest Zoe on Auto trader is £14k, new is around the £30k mark. Lease is £7k deposit and £200 a month. 

Way over what I want (and can) pay so back to the cheap Mini plan.....


----------



## cougie uk (22 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> You do realise it's only 9 years don't you? I watched Back to the Future in 1985 I'm still waiting for those ideas to come through
> Are they put on real EV's or the cheats like the BMW I8,



Green plates are just for pure EV's - zero emission cars.
9 years back was 2012 - ah things were good back then. Home Olympics - no pandemic. 2030 - who knows what will happen ?


----------



## cougie uk (22 May 2021)

midlife said:


> Changing car in July, by chance we have a charging port installed on our drive from the last owner. Just for commuting into work and bi monthly 120 mile round trips to Newcastle with work
> 
> Have a soft spot for a Mini so was thinking about £4k for an older used one, anything equivalent for an EV cost wise?



4k sadly won't be enough to get you an EV as far as I know. A first series Leaf would be your best bet - you'd need to stop for charge on your 120 mile round trip.


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## lane (22 May 2021)

Exactly but you can get s decent petrol or diesel car for that money


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## lane (22 May 2021)

Got a few people with a Tesla in the village - one house has two parked outside. Good thing as people with that much money would probably have a SUV. But for folks with normal amounts of money EV not a sensible option.


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## cougie uk (22 May 2021)

It is amazing how much people will spend on cars. Plenty of 4x4s around that are more expensive than an EV.


----------



## gzoom (22 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Also with regards to being cheaper, c'mon this is an £82K car (basic) I can make that trip several hundreds of times & still work out cheaper.



The X is expensive but no more so than the endless number of RangRovers I pass eveyday on the commute to work.

Running costs of the X is much lower than any RangeRover, and its undoubtedly better for the environment. Yet more people still buy RangeRovers than EVs.


----------



## gzoom (22 May 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Ok didn’t realise they were 6 seaters. Need more main stream options but fear pricing is just too far for some.



7 seater, £31k OTR.

https://www.vauxhall.co.uk/cars/combo-life/electric.html


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## lane (22 May 2021)

Yes EV is good alternative to expensive SUV but not an option for someone like me who spends £8k and wants the car to last me 10+ years with low costs for maintenance over that period.


----------



## Phaeton (22 May 2021)

midlife said:


> Cheapest Zoe on Auto trader is £14k, new is around the £30k mark. Lease is £7k deposit and £200 a month.
> 
> Way over what I want (and can) pay so back to the cheap Mini plan.....


https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...ivery-option=on&price-from=4000&price-to=5000


cougie uk said:


> It is amazing how much people will spend on cars. Plenty of 4x4s around that are more expensive than an EV.


Not me, most I have ever spent on a car was £12.2k, couldn't be doing with it being sat for 23 hours a day doing nothing, sold it 6 months later for £11.9k, last I bought cost £6.5K 6 years ago, which I still think is way too much.


lane said:


> Yes EV is good alternative to expensive SUV but not an option for someone like me who spends £8k and wants the car to last me 10+ years with low costs for maintenance over that period.


Last car bought 6 years ago, 7 years old, if I want to replace it now with another 7 year old one it's £9K so currently not prepared to buy.


----------



## midlife (22 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-se...ivery-option=on&price-from=4000&price-to=5000
> Not me, most I have ever spent on a car was £12.2k, couldn't be doing with it being sat for 23 hours a day doing nothing, sold it 6 months later for £11.9k, last I bought cost £6.5K 6 years ago, which I still think is way too much.
> Last car bought 6 years ago, 7 years old, if I want to replace it now with another 7 year old one it's £9K so currently not prepared to buy.



Thanks, I think I must have had my auto trader search set to dealers as no private sales copped up.


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## Phaeton (22 May 2021)

midlife said:


> Thanks, I think I must have had my auto trader search set to dealers as no private sales copped up.


I know I looked at them a couple of years ago, the newer version had just come out which had a greater range, there was quite a few that were 3 years old being swapped out on lease. The only concern was the battery wasn't owned on most were on a lease.


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## gzoom (23 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Last car bought 6 years ago, 7 years old, if I want to replace it now with another 7 year old one it's £9K so currently not prepared to buy.



Wasting money on cars had put more than a big dent in my bank account over the years.

But am getting better, the Tesla was bought in 2016 and I have no interest of spending any more £££ on another new car for another 5 years at least...........




........however my wifes car will need replacement at some point, current a Model 3 LR is at the top of her shopping list. Cheap EVs are not .


----------



## vickster (23 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> Wasting money on cars had put more than a big dent in my bank account over the years.
> 
> But am getting better, the Tesla was bought in 2016 and I have no interest of spending any more £££ on another new car for another 5 years at least...........
> 
> ...


Give her your car, and you get a cheap one then


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## gzoom (23 May 2021)

vickster said:


> Give her your car, and you get a cheap one then



That has been suggested when I grumbled at the price of a Model 3


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## Phaeton (23 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> That has been suggested when I grumbled at the price of a Model 3


Who does the school runs, who ferries them around?


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## vickster (23 May 2021)

Do you need two cars?


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## vickster (23 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Who does the school runs, who ferries them around?


Isn’t he in London, why then do they need to drive the kids to school?


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## Phaeton (23 May 2021)

vickster said:


> Isn’t he in London, why then do they need to drive the kids to school?


No idea, I thought the idea of living in Lardun was so as not to have any cars, my nephew has managed it for 20 years.


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## gzoom (23 May 2021)

vickster said:


> Isn’t he in London, why then do they need to drive the kids to school?



I love how eveyone loves to judge, no we are not in London, and yes my daughter walks to school.







However cars to me are much more than just transport, this was my last combustion car, a modified BMW 335i with the fantastic N54 in line 6 engine, tuned to about 400WHP (so around 450BHP at the crank), it kept a RS6 honest from 70mph to about 140mph on the Autobahn .






I PCPed a Leaf to try out EVs after the 335i became increasingly unreliable - including dumping all of its coolant on the driveway. After test driving the Leaf, I pretty much decided that was it for me interms of combustion cars.






If I hadn't bought the Tesla I would have ended up with this.......For me anyways EVs have 100% been the more 'green' option (and cheaper interms of running costs/upkeep).


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## MrGrumpy (23 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> I love how eveyone loves to judge, no we are not in London, and yes my daughter walks to school.
> 
> View attachment 590152
> 
> ...


I wanted a Jag 3.0S sportsback, however not much room in the back for adults so left it and went for something more practical. Looked at EVs and hybrids last year briefly before buying the E Class. Just was not convinced about charging access when out and about for the EV and hybrids just seems pointless.


----------



## Pale Rider (23 May 2021)

midlife said:


> Cheapest Zoe on Auto trader is £14k, new is around the £30k mark. Lease is £7k deposit and £200 a month.



Aye, and a £14k balloon payment after three years if you want to keep it.

That's bordering on irresponsible lending in my view, although it makes a total of about £29,000 so you are not paying a lot of interest.


----------



## vickster (23 May 2021)

gzoom said:


> I love how eveyone loves to judge, no we are not in London, and yes my daughter walks to school.
> 
> View attachment 590152
> 
> ...


But your wife the car she wants if she shares your passion


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## MrGrumpy (23 May 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Aye, and a £14k balloon payment after three years if you want to keep it.
> 
> That's bordering on irresponsible lending in my view, although it makes a total of about £29,000 so you are not paying a lot of interest.


That’s how a lot of folk buy cars now all on PCP deals are just rent. I can see why , however a car salesman said to me once if your putting a big deposit down don’t PCP just HP it, if minimal deposit it makes a bit more sense to PCP. Anyways that’s a discussion for another topic .


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## Phaeton (23 May 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Aye, and a £14k balloon payment after three years if you want to keep it.
> 
> That's bordering on irresponsible lending in my view, although it makes a total of about £29,000 so you are not paying a lot of interest.


The ones I linked to are 7 years old as an outright sale apart from the £49 to £159 a month battery lease, which is more than I spend on diesel which in the end is why I didn't buy one.


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## lane (23 May 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> Aye, and a £14k balloon payment after three years if you want to keep it.
> 
> That's bordering on irresponsible lending in my view, although it makes a total of about £29,000 so you are not paying a lot of interest.



That's the thing. I buy second hand, pay over 5 years then get 5 years with no payments to make.


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## Pale Rider (30 Jun 2021)

What about spares and repair for electric vehicles?

An acquaintance has a new Tesla which was clouted in a staff car park yesterday while on charge.

The car recorded the bump on one of its many cameras, although to be fair the other driver coughed the job to the car park attendant.

New bumper required, the next question being where from and who is going to fit it?

My acquaintance counted at least six sensors, so removal and fitting may not be straightforward.

Neither she nor I know if Tesla has any service dealers, but her's can't be the first one to need repair so hopefully the way forward will become clear.

Makes me wonder if buying an electric car from a traditional ICE maker might be a wise move.

At least you would have a local dealer to go to, even if they are not very familiar with the electron powered cars.


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## midlife (30 Jun 2021)

slightly off topic but had to change the car at the beginning of next month.

Looked at electric vehicles but in the end plumped for a 2014 Ford Ka, £3500. 45,000 miles with one owner in Cockermouth and full service history. Cheap as chips to run and insure. Maybe paid over the odds but the figures add up better than buying electric.


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## Oldhippy (30 Jun 2021)

INTERGRATED FUNCTIONAL FOR ALL FAIRLY PRICED WELL RUN PUBLIC TRANSPORT


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## Drago (30 Jun 2021)

Mrs D was telling me that one of the teachers at school has an early Tesla model S, 2016 IIRC. Used car, no warrantly left. Theres something wrong with it, and they indeed struggled to to find anyone qualifed to wield the hammers.

When they did eventually find someone it transpires that something electronic to do with the motor (this came via Mrs D, who had the mechanical sympathy and knowledge of a tioper truck driver, sp details are scant) is at fault, and it would cost £8000 to fix, but the item is not available to buy. I do not know how, or even if, this was resolved (I'll ask her when she gets home).

Thats about all I know, but was one of the reasons Mrs Has ordered a Polestar rather than a Tesla - any Level 1 Volvo dealer can work on it, and parts supply is assured via the same source.


----------



## gzoom (30 Jun 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> What about spares and repair for electric vehicles?
> 
> An acquaintance has a new Tesla which was clouted in a staff car park yesterday while on charge.
> 
> ...



Quite alot of garages are now getting 'EV certified' I found one local to me (2 miles from my house) whom have just done a service on our Tesla with no issues (first service in 4 years and 50K). They also told me they are more than happy to do repair and order parts directly from Tesla. 

https://www.hevra.org.uk/

EVs are actually very easy to work on, there is no engine in the way of suspension parts etc. I've taken apart the front of our X before, it takes about 5 minutes to get to this level of stripping, you can access the motor, radiator already. Try doing that on a combustion car!!


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## gzoom (30 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Mrs D was telling me that one of the teachers at school has an early Tesla model S, 2016 IIRC. Used car, no warrantly left. Theres something wrong with it, and they indeed struggled to to find anyone qualifed to wield the hammers.
> 
> When they did eventually find someone it transpires that something electronic to do with the motor (this came via Mrs D, who had the mechanical sympathy and knowledge of a tioper truck driver, sp details are scant) is at fault and it would cost £8000 to fix, but the item is not available to buy. I do not know how, or even if, this was resolved.



Are you talking BS again about EVs....What are you trying to wield to a Tesla???

The chassis of the car is aluminium so ofcourse its hard to weld.

As for a problem with the motor *EVERY SINGLE Tesla Model S *sold in the UK is still under the original 8 year battery + motor warranty with unlimited miles - The earliest Model S sold in the UK was in mid 2014. So if its a problem with the motor why haven't they just asked Tesla to replace for *FREE* under warranty???

I get you like to bash EVs for no reason, but as I have stated in the past, please atleast get your facts right before spouting nonsense!!


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (1 Jul 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> What about spares and repair for electric vehicles?
> 
> An acquaintance has a new Tesla which was clouted in a staff car park yesterday while on charge.
> The car recorded the bump on one of its many cameras, although to be fair the other driver coughed the job to the car park attendant.
> ...


Tesla have a number of Service Centres, the same as for any "conventional" ICE car, its just that the Tesla Centres tend not to be big glass and polished showrooms in prime locations, but are located in Industrial areas. 
Many modern cars are festooned with sensors and cameras which need specialist diagnostics to check them and reset/recalibrate them after a shunt, even a minor car park shunt. Its not only Teslas that have lane assist, steering assist, self parking, adaptive cruise control etc. Even modest family car manufacturers like Nissan/Renault, Peugeot/Citroen, Kia/Hyundai etc have a huge number of sensors and electornis/computing stems in their cars. If you recall the reputation that French cars had for dodgy electrics, would you ever consider buying an EV built by one of them? Even FIAT are producing EVs 🙄
In the case of your acquaintance, they should just leave things to the insurers to sort out the repairs.


----------



## Drago (4 Jul 2021)

They currently have 7 in London, 13 for the rest of the British Isles. 

There are more authorised Lamborghini service agents than Tesla service centres.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Jul 2021)

midlife said:


> slightly off topic but had to change the car at the beginning of next month.
> 
> Looked at electric vehicles but in the end plumped for a 2014 Ford Ka, £3500. 45,000 miles with one owner in Cockermouth and full service history. Cheap as chips to run and insure. Maybe paid over the odds but the figures add up better than buying electric.


2nd hand car prices are a bit mad atm. A very good condition 2009 65k Fiesta cost me £3200 a few weeks back, I bought my last 10yr old one for £500


----------



## cougie uk (5 Jul 2021)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> 2nd hand car prices are a bit mad atm. A very good condition 2009 65k Fiesta cost me £3200 a few weeks back, I bought my last 10yr old one for £500


When did you buy the £500 one ?


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Jul 2021)

cougie uk said:


> When did you buy the £500 one ?


End 2010 so the world was slightly different


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## cougie uk (5 Jul 2021)

I guess the 2009 car might have a bit more kit than the 2000 one ?


----------



## icowden (5 Jul 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Ok didn’t realise they were 6 seaters. Need more main stream options but fear pricing is just too far for some.
> BIL bought a model 3 , get the feeling that he ain’t happy with the build quality . Been back twice for paint issues and something else .



The X isn't a 6 seater. It can be a 5 seater, a 6 seater or a 7 seater depending on the configuration you choose (and pay for).

But in terms of cost - that's why the Model Y is coming out. It's the smaller version of the X essentially, just as the 3 is a smaller version of the S. It still won't be *that* cheap (priced from £35,000) but it is more affordable. Of course when you have added 7 seats, a tow hitch and full self drive you will probably be nearer to £50,000.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Jul 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I guess the 2009 car might have a bit more kit than the 2000 one ?


Not a great deal different, aesthetics mostly and the fairly bland yet functional Ford radio


----------



## icowden (5 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> They currently have 7 in London, 13 for the rest of the British Isles.
> 
> There are more authorised Lamborghini service agents than Tesla service centres.



i think they are expanding, but their ethos is that most "problems" can be fixed remotely. Of course that doesn't apply to bodywork issues.


----------



## RoubaixCube (5 Jul 2021)

My dad is rather keen on going PHEV or full on EV but his worry has always been range and how much of an inconvenience it is to wait 2-3hrs for a big charge or 30mins for a partial charge never mind there being charge points near by when he really needs one. (we dont have our own off street parking so cant put our own charge point in)

I keep telling him that the network of charge points is steadily growing and most big supermarkets have charging points in their carparks. So he could leave the car charging for 30mins every time he does his shopping -- his biggest fear is being left stranded somewhere.


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## MrGrumpy (5 Jul 2021)

I’ll be waiting a while before going full EV if I ever do. No charge points at work. If you can make it work great . Personally prefer the freedom of a hybrid if that was the only choice , which looking at things is probably the way. Even Land Rover are now offering mild hybrids now. Soon be the only choice. Also seems to be the only real option for towing a caravan.


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## gzoom (5 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> They currently have 7 in London, 13 for the rest of the British Isles.
> 
> There are more authorised Lamborghini service agents than Tesla service centres.



Good thing any one with buying a Nissan Leaf can go to Nissan dealer .

But on Tesla, you don't need to 'service' them, so the only time you visit a dealership is some thing goes wrong. 50% of warranty claims I've had on our car has been done by a technician coming to my house, Tesla twice came to the house to pick up the car and left me a loaner, once the car was towed to the dealer and than they dropped it off at home. I've physically had to drive the car to a service center roughly 6 times, in return for a loaner. 

Tesla have an awful reliability record, but that shouldn't be 'news' to anyone, is probably similar for any Lambo. 

But an EV from the likes of Nissan/Kia/Hyundai are different story. 

Our old Leaf was one of the most practical family cars we have owned, and one of the cheapest to run/maintain, it was the first car my daughter travelled in.

My personal biggest regret is 6 years on, and despite the news of Canada baking in record temperatures EVs are still some how seen as the 'odd ball' choice. I remember thinking in 2015 why didn't I switch to an EV back in 2013 when the first gen 2 Leafs came to market. Yet even now more people are choosing to buy diesels over EVs .


----------



## Pale Rider (5 Jul 2021)

Scottish Scrutineer said:


> n the case of your acquaintance, they should just leave things to the insurers to sort out the repairs.



It's a no fault claim against the other driver's insurance.

They will pay, but next to nothing would be done if she left it to them.

Happily, it turns out there's Tesla service centre in Newcastle, which is doable, albeit twice as far away as service might have been were it a mainstream maker.

The alternatives to Newcastle are Greater Manchester or Scotland.

That's a vast swathe of the country in which the owner of a crashed Tesla could face a very long journey for crash repair or warranty work requiring the fitting of a part.

None of which is insurmountable, and no doubt coverage will increase.

But service/repair remains a consideration for new buyers until the network is improved.


----------



## gzoom (5 Jul 2021)

RoubaixCube said:


> we dont have our own off street parking so cant put our own charge point in



This is the biggest real problem with EVs, and something the government despite all their talk refuses to address or spend money on.

I love our EV because I can refuel it home overnight on cheap electricity, or if there is enough sun for 'free' via our solar panels. More importantly refueling at home saves me TIME. I have having to drive to the petrol station to fill up my wifes car. 

But take away home charging and you left with having to use public rapid chargers, which are far slower and less convenient than petrol pumps. I don't know what the solution is aside form government putting local councils to task on installing kerb side charge points.


----------



## gzoom (5 Jul 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> That's a vast swathe of the country in which the owner of a crashed Tesla could face a very long journey for crash repair or warranty work requiring the fitting of a part.



No really, you phone the insurance company and get a loan car delivered, and carry on. 

Some idiot did this our Model X when it was 4 months old. 






A interm loan car was arranged that afternoon, and the next day this was delivered to my work address and the other loan car taken away.






Warranty work as I've described is covered by a combination of loan cars, door step delivery/collection, ranger visits. 

Ofcourse why/how Tesla customer service is relevant to someone looking at a Nissan Leaf I have no idea 

Oh and my insurance cost for the Tesla, fully comp, is £350/year, before someone starts worrying about insurance costs.


----------



## gzoom (5 Jul 2021)

Pale Rider said:


> It's a no fault claim against the other driver's insurance.
> 
> They will pay, but next to nothing would be done if she left it to them.



Why are they even dealing with it???

If its a non fault claim, leave to the insurance company surely to sort out??


----------



## icowden (5 Jul 2021)

gzoom said:


> This is the biggest real problem with EVs, and something the government despite all their talk refuses to address or spend money on.



There were some rumours that they were looking at converting street lights to have EV charge sockets. We also need more EV incentives. Norway has the highest EV take up rate around - thanks to 0% purchase tax, 0% VAT etc.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (30 Oct 2021)

Sometimes a newish Leaf parks just in front of my Kodiaq, as the driver visits someone a bit further down the Avenue
It seems rather large, I presume they've grown in size (like most cars have?)

I'm sure the earlier ones were more Micra sized?


----------



## cougie uk (30 Oct 2021)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Sometimes a newish Leaf parks just in front of my Kodiaq, as the driver visits someone a bit further down the Avenue
> It seems rather large, I presume they've grown in size (like most cars have?)
> 
> I'm sure the earlier ones were more Micra sized?


All the cars have got bigger. Is the Kodiaq the new Yeti ? I bet it's bigger than its predecessor.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (30 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> All the cars have got bigger. Is the Kodiaq the new Yeti ? I bet it's bigger than its predecessor.



No, as there's 2 models below mine

Kamiq (Yeti replacement?, but not as characterful)
Karoq
https://www.skoda.co.uk/new-cars/range#activeRangeFilterKey=Outdoor


----------



## MrGrumpy (30 Oct 2021)

cougie uk said:


> All the cars have got bigger. Is the Kodiaq the new Yeti ? I bet it's bigger than its predecessor.


Funny I remember going to Loch Lomand camping when I was nipper. We went in my mums Mini Clubman estate . It was a bit tight for space. I also remember going to Scarborough in another Mini Clubman Van . My sister and I sat on the rear wheel arches in the back .
Think there’s a reason cars have gotten bigger and safer.  

However driving standards may have dropped before anyone piles in


----------



## Grant Fondo (30 Oct 2021)

I actually quite liked the look of the original one but it was 10 years ago





The new one looks like a million other cars, dull.


----------



## TheDoctor (9 Nov 2021)

Well, we actually went for a Pug 308 1.6 hdi SW in the end.
We like it so far, although everything is done via a touchscreen.
It's very unlike our old Megane, where switches appear to have been thrown at the cabin and fitted where they landed.


----------



## CXRAndy (9 Nov 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Well, we actually went for a Pug 308 1.6 hdi SW in the end.
> We like it so far, although everything is done via a touchscreen.
> It's very unlike our old Megane, where switches appear to have been thrown at the cabin and fitted where they landed.


Bit late, 

We have a 40kW Leaf 2018. We use everyday as a workhorse car. 100-120miles per day during the week. It has all the features bar LED lights. Auto steering, heated everything- which is lovely on the cold winter mornings, everything is warm and car defrosted whilst I'm sipping my coffee. Pretty nippy, will out accelerate most cars due to instant torque up to motorway legal speeds. Space is decent, boot ok plenty of room folded seats. 360 cameras and sensors front rear. 

We are moving next year, I've seen a piece of kit which allows car to grid energy supply. There is every chance we will strip the Leaf for its battery to effectively have 3 Tesla power-walls. Solar charge during the day feed back at night. 

I need to way up value of shell and al the bits left or just park the vehicle in a shed and link it that way.


----------



## TheDoctor (9 Nov 2021)

I'd have thought it was worth selling the Leaf and buying batteries?


----------



## CXRAndy (9 Nov 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> I'd have thought it was worth selling the Leaf and buying batteries?


Tesla power-wall 3 13.5kWatt 5-9kWatt peak demand storage circa £10k plus additional wiring up 
Around £30k minimum for equivalent Nissan Leaf 40kW storage. 

Wall box Quasar has an 'indicated' 7.4kwatt capability to run the property from Nissan Leaf 

EDF have teamed up with Nissan too, but I'm still looking for the specifications for their system


On the face of it its looks cheaper to go with vehicle to grid route.


----------



## Archie_tect (9 Nov 2021)

That's a lot of money to invest in technology that will be redundant in a few years Andy- wouldn't you be better just using the Leaf as a car and selling the Tesla?


----------



## CXRAndy (9 Nov 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> That's a lot of money to invest in technology that will be redundant in a few years Andy- wouldn't you be better just using the Leaf as a car and selling the Tesla?



The Nissan will be towards 100K miles next year. I'm not expecting a great resale price. However if battery pack is in good order-I can check with Leaf Spy software. It may be worth investing in a V2G charger box to provide power when Solar stops. I'm also investigating a small wind turbine to help top up battery and keep house running overnight.


----------



## Drago (10 Nov 2021)

I followed a new style Leaf home from Daughters the other night. They were using the same back route I do to avoid rush hour traffic. Despite myself I actually found myself liking the look of it. It didn't hang about either, certainly quicker in the mid range than the average non hot-hatch. The Volvo has 450NM and kept up ok, but I was surprised that I was having to pay attention to stay with it (it was an unlit country road and their headlamps were far better than mine, so I was trying to stay close enough to benefit!)


----------



## CXRAndy (10 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> I followed a new style Leaf home from Daughters the other night. They were using the same back route I do to avoid rush hour traffic. Despite myself I actually found myself liking the look of it. It didn't hang about either, certainly quicker in the mid range than the average non hot-hatch. The Volvo has 450NM and kept up ok, but I was surprised that I was having to pay attention to stay with it (it was an unlit country road and their headlamps were far better than mine, so I was trying to stay close enough to benefit!)



Lots of driver just use ECO mode, but switch it off and yes, from 20 to 70mph the Leaf will match a hot hatch. I once was entering a dual carriageway from a roundabout. I floored it and then noticed a Porsche Boxster just beside me, granted an older model, but he wasn't able to out accelerate me till he carried onto to very high speeds, I backed off at 70, with a little


----------



## cougie uk (10 Nov 2021)

I rarely take it out of eco and I got beeped at lights by another car - presumably for racing away from them. I really wasn't but electric is so much quicker around town. 

Press pedal and you're already gone.


----------



## CXRAndy (10 Nov 2021)

All modern ICE vehicles are programmed/tuned to get into the highest gear as soon as possible, especially the semi flappy paddle autos. This is to maximise fuel economy. However they're almost always way below the power band or spooling turbo. This leaves them floundering for a few seconds against an EV. By times the ICE car has geared down or built boost, the EV has literally gone. 

Only big engines with lots of low down torque are a match for little EVs.

Powerful EVs are now kings of the road in way of performance


----------



## Drago (10 Nov 2021)

My car has the polestar map, and not only sharpens the engine it alters the transmission behaviour - and being a true slush, albeit computer controlled, the torque converter acts as a multiplier. 

As I say, I was keeping with the Leaf ok, but was having to pay very close attention. It was pretty quick but not eye wateringly so. Mrs D's Polestar 2 would have left it for dead.


----------



## MrGrumpy (10 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> All modern ICE vehicles are programmed/tuned to get into the highest gear as soon as possible, especially the semi flappy paddle autos. This is to maximise fuel economy. However they're almost always way below the power band or spooling turbo. This leaves them floundering for a few seconds against an EV. By times the ICE car has geared down or built boost, the EV has literally gone.
> 
> Only big engines with lots of low down torque are a match for little EVs.
> 
> Powerful EVs are now kings of the road in way of performance


So we have replaced speeding fossil fuel cars for speeding EVs ??!! At least with the petrol engines you can hear them coming !! Not so much with your turbo charged milk float


----------



## cougie uk (10 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> So we have replaced speeding fossil fuel cars for speeding EVs ??!! At least with the petrol engines you can hear them coming !! Not so much with your turbo charged milk float


Do you ride a bike ? You can hear EVs just as well as ICE cars. It's the tyre noise that you'll hear more than the engine. Has an EV ever sneaked up on you ?

Ok they're quiet at low speed but most modern cars are.


----------



## gzoom (11 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> It may be worth investing in a V2G charger box to provide power when Solar stops. I'm also investigating a small wind turbine to help top up battery and keep house running overnight.



Our Powerwall is by far the most utilised lithium ion based product we own. Its literally 'working' 24/7, either recharging off solar/cheap E7 rate grid electricity or discharging for the house.

It really taps into making what ever renewable energy generation you have much more effective.

I'll be keen to see how you get on with a wind turbine install, my understanding is you need a decent sized one for any real generation capacity, but anything worth while getting needs alot of planning permission approval .


----------



## Archie_tect (11 Nov 2021)

What's the EV equivalent of 'petrol head'?


----------



## Drago (11 Nov 2021)

Archie_tect said:


> What's the EV equivalent of 'petrol head'?


Dork? 

Fortunately ive never been a car nut of any type.


----------



## CXRAndy (11 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> So we have replaced speeding fossil fuel cars for speeding EVs ??!! At least with the petrol engines you can hear them coming !! Not so much with your turbo charged milk float


You really have a negative approach to EVs.  It was an example to indicate EV performance is no detriment compared to ICE vehicles. Virtually all vehicle noise once over 20mph is tyre noise.

I'm looking for a new EV, what's this new turbo charged version?-Is it better than Plaid


----------



## gzoom (11 Nov 2021)

Ķ


Drago said:


> Dork?
> 
> Fortunately ive never been a car nut of any type.



Whilst Love Island loves to show beautiful people as perfection, the truth is nerds rule the world, certainly for our current generation ...


----------



## MrGrumpy (11 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> You really have a negative approach to EVs.  It was an example to indicate EV performance is no detriment compared to ICE vehicles. Virtually all vehicle noise once over 20mph is tyre noise.
> 
> I'm looking for a new EV, what's this new turbo charged version?-Is it better than Plaid


Not negative , realistic ! An EV is of no use to me currently, absolutely no use. My wife however would manage ok with one . To repeat though EV vehicles are not going to fix todays problem other than emissions in use at the time !! I will still see the same queues of traffic into the city and busy motorways . Something that seems lost to most folk !


----------



## Archie_tect (11 Nov 2021)

We need a global infrastructure network with Governments combining R+D to fund solar power for everyone. This reliance on personal transport and the millions people spend each year isn't doing anything to develop an accessible solar and battery system and just panders to the oil industries muscling to only promote their own private, and therefore expensive, national] network. 6p/kwh is a sensible and affordable charge, 30p+/kwh is profiteering and makes EVs as expensive to operate as diesel powered vehicles. Couple that with the eye-watering prices for new cars and the whole thing just doesn't stack up.


----------



## fossyant (11 Nov 2021)

EV's 'filing up' is subsidised at present though - 6p kwh vs 20p normal electricity consumption, and don't forget the free charge points. There will come a point it's not so cheap/ free.

The cost vs usage makes no sense to my use at present.


----------



## CXRAndy (11 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> todays problem other than emissions in use at the time


Well that's a huge problem currently and if we don't start cutting all forms of emissions, queueing in traffic will be the least of your worries


----------



## cougie uk (11 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> EV's 'filing up' is subsidised at present though - 6p kwh vs 20p normal electricity consumption, and don't forget the free charge points. There will come a point it's not so cheap/ free.
> 
> The cost vs usage makes no sense to my use at present.



https://www.theguardian.com/environ...y-subsidies-of-11m-dollars-a-minute-imf-finds

So your petrol is subsidised. 

I'm sure road pricing will happen too so the earlier you go electric the more you'll have the benefits.


----------



## Scottish Scrutineer (11 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> I followed a new style Leaf home from Daughters the other night. They were using the same back route I do to avoid rush hour traffic. Despite myself I actually found myself liking the look of it. It didn't hang about either, certainly quicker in the mid range than the average non hot-hatch. The Volvo has 450NM and kept up ok, but I was surprised that I was having to pay attention to stay with it (it was an unlit country road and their headlamps were far better than mine, so I was trying to stay close enough to benefit!)


We have a number of BEVs at work as pool cars and I routinely will chose one of those over an ICE car. The current generation Leafs are indeed quite nippy, even with 4 big blokes onboard. Handling is a bit meh, but such are most modern cars with electric power steering which gives little feedback, and the ride is a bit firm. However as Drago says, they can be hustled along the back roads and will leave most things for dead at traffic lights, especially as so many ICE cars have to restart the engine once the driver sees the green lights.

We are considering a power vault of some type, but hadn't really considered that a BEV sitting in our drive connected via a smart charger could be effectively acting as one. I'm working from home mostly and some weeks the Caravelle rarely goes out, so a BEV could be powering our house during the evenings and could be "topped up" on a cheap overnight tariff combined with charge from our PV panels. 

Hmm, i wonder how much a Leaf is second hand, or to lease?


----------



## cougie uk (11 Nov 2021)

18k or so for a two year old Leaf when I last looked.


----------



## MrGrumpy (11 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Well that's a huge problem currently and if we don't start cutting all forms of emissions, queueing in traffic will be the least of your worries


I remember diesel being touted as the best thing to drive , superb fuel economy etc . Now it’s the devil incarnate  . Save me the Greta speech , no matter what we drive it all has an environmental cost . I’m pretty confident that if I want I could be driving a non EV till I retire.


----------



## cougie uk (11 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I remember diesel being touted as the best thing to drive , superb fuel economy etc . Now it’s the devil incarnate  . Save me the Greta speech , no matter what we drive it all has an environmental cost . I’m pretty confident that if I want I could be driving a non EV till I retire.


Depending on when you retire I'm sure you could. 
Not necessarily the sensible decision but it's your choice.


----------



## MrGrumpy (11 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Depending on when you retire I'm sure you could.
> Not necessarily the sensible decision but it's your choice.


Well why would it not be sensible ? If I can keep my current car going for as long as I can, I’m saving money ! Owes me nothing , bought and paid for no monthly payments ? One less car on the road really if you think about it.


----------



## fossyant (11 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well why would it not be sensible ? If I can keep my current car going for as long as I can, I’m saving money ! Owes me nothing , bought and paid for no monthly payments ? One less car on the road really if you think about it.



Same here, although pushing my 20 year old car for another 10-15 would be possible.... EV's might be better by then. 

I'll stick to the bike for commutes, saves me £6 a day in petrol or electric.


----------



## Nebulous (11 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> I remember diesel being touted as the best thing to drive , superb fuel economy etc . Now it’s the devil incarnate  . Save me the Greta speech , no matter what we drive it all has an environmental cost . I’m pretty confident that if I want I could be driving a non EV till I retire.



I did applied mechanics and engineering science at school in the 1970s. My teacher was adamant that diesel wasn't suitable as a fuel for personal vehicles, only bigger commercial ones. The diesel was less refined, came from the heavier components in a barrel of oil with more residue, and didn't burn as well without a spark. 

The car manufacturers really worked on diesel engines, refined them, gave better mileage and I used to reflect on how wrong he was. My father had a 1.9tdi volkswagen, which could shift, and he was always bragging about the mpg he achieved. 

Then the scientists began to question why with all these 'clean' diesels air quality in cities wasn't improving. That led to the whole diesel VW scandal. 

It was about that point that I realised he was in fact right all along.


----------



## CXRAndy (14 Nov 2021)

Ive just done a deal for trading in my 40kW Leaf (70k miles) with a nearly new demonstrator 64kW Leaf. I take delivery next week. 

V2G on the horizon


----------



## Drago (14 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Well why would it not be sensible ? If I can keep my current car going for as long as I can, I’m saving money ! Owes me nothing , bought and paid for no monthly payments ? One less car on the road really if you think about it.


Ironically, its better for the environment in NET terms to keep your old tub going, that to build another to take its place, even an electeic one.

Mrs D has gone the battery route, but when my car dies - or when I can discreetly sell it without earning the ire of my Dad (my Step Mum left it to me) I'll not be replacing it. I wouldn't even be tempted by a nuclear powered car, and you all know how much I love nukes.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

I posted that our 40kW leaf did an average over the cars history of 3.6 miles/kW. I checked this morning and its 3.8 miles/kW. This includes my wife's and mine driving erm styles.

This morning, I thought I would reset the trip for energy usage. Journey was 56 miles return, across country, mostly flat passing through villages with 60mph limits between. I crossed two towns as well.

My average was a very pleasant 4.8 miles/kW 

Now a comparison on costs to do this journey. We are paying 18.29p per kW of electric. I worked out I used 11.6kW of energy from the batteries. That is £2.12 for 56 mile trip.

To compare an internal combustion petrol car with lets say a fair 40mpg

That is 1.4 gallons of petrol. Petrol costs 144.3p per litre. There are 4.54 litres per UK gallon. Usage for trip 6.356 litres used. Costing a whopping
£9.17 in fuel.

In rough figures we saved £7 this morning and will save that again tonight. £14 savings per day £70 for the 5 day week compared to ICE petrol


To recap I would have paid £90 a week for petrol compared to £20 for an EV.

If you have any doubts of the savings running an EV. 

If you were to think about how you could afford to get an EV think there is £280 savings per month which goes a huge way to offsetting the higher price of getting an EV.

Photos of this morning's journey


----------



## cougie uk (16 Nov 2021)

We are averaging about 3.9 KW.

We charge off peak at 5p per KWH so we are saving a fortune over petrol. 

And it's not just fuel costs - maintenance is less, zero tax and you don't have to pass by the M&S concession in the petrol station. 

My Percy Pig savings are huge !


----------



## MrGrumpy (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I posted that our 40kW leaf did an average over the cars history of 3.6 miles/kW. I checked this morning and its 3.8 miles/kW. This includes my wife's and mine driving erm styles.
> 
> This morning, I thought I would reset the trip for energy usage. Journey was 56 miles return, across country, mostly flat passing through villages with 60mph limits between. I crossed two towns as well.
> 
> ...


Nobody is doubting the cost difference in economy ?! However the Leaf is just not going to cut it size wise for some folk . I think. The man maths at work above is why my bro in law justified is Tesla Model 3  . However he didn’t take into account the roof box he had to buy so they could all go away on holiday with the dog


----------



## fossyant (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I posted that our 40kW leaf did an average over the cars history of 3.6 miles/kW. I checked this morning and its 3.8 miles/kW. This includes my wife's and mine driving erm styles.
> 
> This morning, I thought I would reset the trip for energy usage. Journey was 56 miles return, across country, mostly flat passing through villages with 60mph limits between. I crossed two towns as well.
> 
> ...



That's good even at full price leccy. I think leasing's the way to go with leccy cars, more so than infernal combustion. I can fuel for free at work.

It's very tempting on a lease.


----------



## fossyant (16 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Nobody is doubting the cost difference in economy ?! However the Leaf is just not going to cut it size wise for some folk . I think. The man maths at work above is why my bro in law justified is Tesla Model 3  . However he didn’t take into account the roof box he had to buy so they could all go away on holiday with the dog



Leaf's aren't small - it's a medium hatch - probably more practical than my medium/large saloon, only range with 4 bikes on the roof might be a killer, but as a daily driver/commuter would make sense leaving the newer petrol SUV at home and replace the old Saloon.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

fossyant said:


> That's good even at full price leccy. I think leasing's the way to go with leccy cars, more so than infernal combustion. I can fuel for free at work.
> 
> It's very tempting on a lease.



Free electric would be fantastic. Absolute no brainer for savings.


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Nobody is doubting the cost difference in economy ?! However the Leaf is just not going to cut it size wise for some folk . I think. The man maths at work above is why my bro in law justified is Tesla Model 3  . However he didn’t take into account the roof box he had to buy so they could all go away on holiday with the dog


But he made a conscious decision not to keep polluting by using an ICE vehicle


----------



## MrGrumpy (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> But he made a conscious decision not to keep polluting by using an ICE vehicle


 Right ok  .


----------



## Drago (16 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> I posted that our 40kW leaf did an average over the cars history of 3.6 miles/kW. I checked this morning and its 3.8 miles/kW. This includes my wife's and mine driving erm styles.
> 
> This morning, I thought I would reset the trip for energy usage. Journey was 56 miles return, across country, mostly flat passing through villages with 60mph limits between. I crossed two towns as well.
> 
> ...


Mrs D is enjoying the savings. Even better, she charges at work most of the time for free. I told her to enjoy it while it lasts because the government are making no secret of the fact that they're thinking of ways to claw it back.

991 miles between MOTs in my oil burner this year, so the cost of buying a 30+ grand electric car would be a hugely exoensive way to avoid paying £190 a year in diesel, and makes no environmental sense either - it would take 180 years to break even. 

Im thinking after crimbo I may try and discretely sell my car and go without again - its not so much the cost, which is minimal, but the effort of owning and maintaining it is a pain for so little mileage. Mrs D can then chauffeur me around whenever I need to get to the chemists for a tube of piles ointment, which is only fair as I paid for her car 

I was going to drive hers for the first time last night and, despite not really enjoying driving, was actually looking forward to it, but she was late home so I took mine to band practice. Just as well as I got a bit well oiled at the club afterwards and had to leave it there overnight, as did the other 4 band members . Not a problem for an elderly XC90 like mine, no one gives it a 2nd glance, but the Polestar does attract a lot of attention Mrs D would have gone doolally if id left it there


----------



## CXRAndy (16 Nov 2021)

Drago said:


> Mrs D is enjoying the savings. Even better, she charges at work most of the time for free. I told her to enjoy it while it lasts because the government are making no secret of the fact that they're thinking of ways to claw it back.
> 
> 991 miles between MOTs in my oil burner this year, so the cost of buying a 30+ grand electric car would be a hugely exoensive way to avoid paying £190 a year in diesel, and makes no environmental sense either - it would take 180 years to break even.
> 
> ...



If you're doing so little miles, dont really need another car. Yes you dont need an EV or a least another


----------



## Drago (16 Nov 2021)

Indeedy. I don't need a car at all, and didn't own a car...until this one was left to me by my Step Mum when she passed away. If Mrs D didn't have to take a wheelchair wherever she went then she wouldn't have one either.

Most of my mileage is on my ebike these days, which is rather blummen brilliant for integrating into daily life.


----------



## MrGrumpy (17 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> But he made a conscious decision not to keep polluting by using an ICE vehicle


If anyone really gave a flying f…. About the environment they would get rid of all their personal motorised transport  . So don’t give me the conscious decision bollocks  .


----------



## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2021)

This morning not as good this yesterday. This was mostly due to car being stood for nearly 24 hours. I charged it up yesterday morning- wife needed overnight charge for her big drive in her Tesla today. This meant that the Nissan's battery wasnt usually preconditioned by the charge process which finishes at 7am.







So a moderate 4.2 miles/kW costing 31p more than yesterday's £2.12

Now a comparison on e-mpg. Yesterday I used the equivalent of 33% of one gallon. Journey is 56 miles multiplied 3.03= 169 e-mpg 

Today's e-mpg a terrible 146 e-mpg 
Shockingly bad 

Assuming my maths is spot on


----------



## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> If anyone really gave a flying f…. About the environment they would get rid of all their personal motorised transport  . So don’t give me the conscious decision bollocks  .



So he did it to save a small fortune on running costs


----------



## MrGrumpy (17 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> So he did it to save a small fortune on running costs


Greta would approve I’m sure


----------



## Drago (17 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> If anyone really gave a flying f…. About the environment they would get rid of all their personal motorised transport  . So don’t give me the conscious decision bollocks  .


Indeed. The electricity in the UK is far from emissions free, and even the most efficiently electric cars need to cover at least 40,000 miles before the NET lifetime emission draw level with the _average_ ICE car, and significantly higher miles to match an efficient ICE car.

The idea that electric cars is somehow benign, or even good, is utter rubbish. From cradle to grave the atmospheric emissions saving is not great, less than 20% improvement, and the pollution from other aspects of their manufacture (lithium production is one most polluting and freshwater intensive industrial processes known to the human race) are massively worse than an ICE car.

Have an electric car by all means. We do. But people should not delude themselves that its somehow genuinely better for the environment - a minor improvement in lifetime emissions in exchange for much worse depletion of water tables and other forms of chemical and industrial pollution is the reality.

Anyone who really gave a sheet about the environment wouldn't buy a car at all. People who buy a new electric car for which the planet has been ravaged for resources, polluted with the by products, then the car shipped halfway around the world in an oil burning ship in the belief that they're somehow being nice to the environment is an idiot. They're not reducing pollution - theyre creating it elsewhere and smearing it about a lot, but because it hasn't rolled out their own tailpipe it doesnt exist and they feel all smug.


----------



## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2021)

_*He without sin cast the first stone*_

Anyone who owns anything that is operated by any battery type 

*Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you*,

We are all in it together


----------



## cougie uk (17 Nov 2021)

I get your point Drago - but the topic is the Nissan Leaf which is built in the UK ?

Are there many EVs actually built in the UK at present ?


----------



## MrGrumpy (17 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I get your point Drago - but the topic is the Nissan Leaf which is built in the UK ?
> 
> Are there many EVs actually built in the UK at present ?


Honda not planning too? Certainly assembling ?


----------



## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Honda not planning too? Certainly assembling ?


Honda and Toyota are, were against EVs. They wanted to carry on with their successful ICE and develop hydrogen later. 

They made a token vehicle to hoodwink the gormless they're all for BEV


----------



## MrGrumpy (17 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Honda and Toyota are, were against EVs. They wanted to carry on with their successful ICE and develop hydrogen later.
> 
> They made a token vehicle to hoodwink the gormless they're all for BEV


So they aren’t building EVs in the UK ? That was my question ? The rest of your lecture I’m not sure what that was about  .

However a wee bit searching and it would seem there is a bit more detail here and JLR plan to be fully electric in 2025 ?!
https://lovemyev.com/explore/electr...ectric-cars-the-uks-ev-icons-past-and-present


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## CXRAndy (17 Nov 2021)

To my Knowledge Honda is re structuring their worldwide manufacturing, mostly back Japan.

Toyota, dont know, apart from wishing we had gone hydrogen now


----------



## CXRAndy (19 Nov 2021)

New Leaf 62kW is here. Surprisingly not, it drives just like the old one. Little differences, you sit higher, car is raised to accommodate larger battery pack, smoother auto steering and adaptive cruise. Better info-tainment system. Bose sounds beefier. LED full lighting will be nice to use instead of incandescent of the old Leaf.


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> New Leaf 62kW is here. Surprisingly not, it drives just like the old one. Little differences, you sit higher, car is raised to accommodate larger battery pack, smoother auto steering and adaptive cruise. Better info-tainment system. Bose sounds beefier. LED full lighting will be nice to use instead of incandescent of the old Leaf.


Head on the chopping block here  , the new Leaf is nice looker from the outside not seen inside one. Had a shot of the original Leaf as a mate at work had one and it did feel like driving a milk float  ok a quick one  . It’s was just a horrible looking car imo. It each to their own !


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## CXRAndy (19 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Head on the chopping block here  , the new Leaf is nice looker from the outside not seen inside one. Had a shot of the original Leaf as a mate at work had one and it did feel like driving a milk float  ok a quick one  . It’s was just a horrible looking car imo. It each to their own !



Pretty much like all Nissans inside, functional, doesn't set the world on fire, unless its a Tesla 

Comes with leather upholstery, comfy. Wife is out in it now, she'll test performance, range and come back with a list of non likes, even though its pretty much identical to the old one-which she liked


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## MrGrumpy (19 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> Pretty much like all Nissans inside, functional, doesn't set the world on fire, unless its a Tesla



must be just me but the inside of a Tesla does not exactly set my world on fire ?


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## CXRAndy (19 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> must be just me but the inside of a Tesla does not exactly set my world on fire ?



The model 3 is very minimalist. The model S and X are a little more traditional in a high tech way


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## gzoom (20 Nov 2021)

CXRAndy said:


> The model 3 is very minimalist. The model S and X are a little more traditional in a high tech way



For £102,980 before options you would really hope so!!!!

Our old Leaf cost us less to own+run over 2 years than just the seating option in our X .

The Leaf is one of the few 'good value' EVs around.


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## CXRAndy (20 Nov 2021)

This morning Leaf charged to 90% with 209mile range Plenty for our daily needs-even when the wife drives it


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Honda not planning too? Certainly assembling ?


Honda have shut and sold off their factory in Swindon this year.


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## Illaveago (20 Nov 2021)

The sad thing about the Honda closure is that the site has been bought for warehousing and not manufacturing !  It used to be Vickers Supermarine.


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## Phaeton (25 Aug 2022)

So things move on, the more I look at it an EV I feel it would in most instances one would do what we need, I have a Shogun which does the towing of the horse trailer, the car trailer & potentially a caravan if we went back down that route.

I would prefer the 2018+ Leaf due to the increased distance & the fact it looks a lot nicer, but I can't stretch that far, the only ones I can see in my £15K budget have been either Taxi's, Private Hire or they are advertised by scammers. 

With that in mind I'm restricted to a pre 2018 vehicle, so those that have them how to I test the battery, I don't think it's realistic to ask to borrow the car & then drive until it goes flat to see the range, is there some diagnostics that can be done? Enlighten this Luddite


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## cougie uk (25 Aug 2022)

Get in touch with this guy -

https://www.eco-cars.net/aboutecocars.php

I got my leaf two years ago through him and saved thousands.


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## Bazzer (25 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So things move on, the more I look at it an EV I feel it would in most instances one would do what we need, I have a Shogun which does the towing of the horse trailer, the car trailer & potentially a caravan if we went back down that route.
> 
> I would prefer the 2018+ Leaf due to the increased distance & the fact it looks a lot nicer, but I can't stretch that far, the only ones I can see in my £15K budget have been either Taxi's, Private Hire or they are advertised by scammers.
> 
> With that in mind I'm restricted to a pre 2018 vehicle, so those that have them how to I test the battery, I don't think it's realistic to ask to borrow the car & then drive until it goes flat to see the range, is there some diagnostics that can be done? Enlighten this Luddite


I don't have a Leaf but a Golf plug in hybrid. But my starting point would be the car's own diagnostics. They will show the level of charge of the battery and the anticipated range. 
I would also look up on YouTube and other resources, what numbers you might be expecting to see for your proposed vehicle, not the inflated numbers put out by manufacturers. Carwow on You Tube has done some real world driving of EVs, but other channels and resources are available. That way you will have a starting point for what you expect to see. 
The level of battery charge is not likely to be hidden deep in the car's infotainment system, and may even appear directly in front of the driver. Particularly for a non hybrid as this is key information for your journey. The range will definitely be visible So if the car is fully charged it may be showing (say) 200 miles range, but if you know fully charged for a good set of batteries you should be showing 300 miles range, possibly the batteries are on their way out. Anything less than a full charge and it may come down to doing maths.


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## CXRAndy (25 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> So things move on, the more I look at it an EV I feel it would in most instances one would do what we need, I have a Shogun which does the towing of the horse trailer, the car trailer & potentially a caravan if we went back down that route.
> 
> I would prefer the 2018+ Leaf due to the increased distance & the fact it looks a lot nicer, but I can't stretch that far, the only ones I can see in my £15K budget have been either Taxi's, Private Hire or they are advertised by scammers.
> 
> With that in mind I'm restricted to a pre 2018 vehicle, so those that have them how to I test the battery, I don't think it's realistic to ask to borrow the car & then drive until it goes flat to see the range, is there some diagnostics that can be done? Enlighten this Luddite



You could have had ours, if you asked 8 months ago. £15k would have secured the deal.


You drive your regular route, set the trip to work out how many miles per kilowatts. Then just multiply from usable battery capacity. That is pretty accurate.

Or ask me who has owned two generation 2 Leaf's a 40kW and 62kW. 

Real world range 40kW
Winter 105 miles
Summer 165miles. 

Eco driving will be 3.6-4miles per kiloWatt

62kW
Winter 190 miles
Summer 240 miles

Eco driving 3.2-3.6 miles per kW


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