# Hills on a recumbent



## Tim O (5 Mar 2015)

A friend of mine and I have decided we would like to give recumbents a go. He's undecided yet as to whether to go for a two wheeler or a trike. I am pretty certain I would go for two wheels. We're both 67. I've done a lot of searching and I'm still worried about just one thing: hills. We live on the Isle of Wight which, as any of you will know who have ever cycled here (perhaps on the randonee), is very hilly. I've always been useless on hills even in my time trialling and racing days (a 100 years ago)!

I would really value any thoughts you have on recumbents and hills. I'm assuming, on a two wheeler, you can get a really low, granny gear (far lower than I've got on my Specialized road bike)? Any advice on makes and models? I'm not particularly concerned about touring - something that might just be able to carry enough for a day or an overnight at most. I suppose my main question is, I don't want to have to get off and push but I don't mind how slowly I go up. I'm looking for encouragement! Doable on the Island (on a 2 wheel 'bent)?

Many thanks.


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## Pale Rider (5 Mar 2015)

I have no practical experience of recumbents, but can give you a bit of encouragement until those that do post.

When I volunteered at the Barnard Castle control of the London Edinburgh London audax, the first UK based rider to arrive from London was on a recumbent.

He was fifth into the control.

The first four guys - all Europeans - were hardcore distance men, but the recumbent rider was only about 15 minutes behind and they left together.

It proves recumbents are capable machines and can 'compete' with uprights.


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## classic33 (5 Mar 2015)

Three wheels allow you to go as slow as you want, without the fear of falling over.
How low a gear are you looking for. Getting up roads at 40 degrees on four wheels & pedal power, at present easily enough.

ICE springs to mind for a trike.


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## andytheflyer (5 Mar 2015)

Hi Tim,

I came to a 'bent 2 wheeler last autumn. TW Bents Amigo, 2006 vintage. 20" front, 26" rear, 52/42/30 front rings, 11-34 cassette.

My average over the last 500 miles has been about 2 to 2.5mph slower than my Giant Defy road bike, and about the same as my Ridgeback hybrid. They are definitely slower uphill, but my max speed is consistently a bit higher than the max on my road bike, over the same general roads.







These are similar to the Nazca Fuego I think.

I'm 60 and no lightweight, but I've found (after considerable tweaking to get it the way I want it) it to be very comfortable, quite exhilarating downhill, and although it seems slow when you are spinning away uphill, it really does make up for it both on the flat and downhill, because the drag from wind resistance is much less than on an upright. To date, I can get up any of the hills I can get up on my road bike. The challenge is going slowly and still feeling in control, the slower you go the wobblier you get - and a 2 wheeler will spit you off - but it's not far to fall! I can now ride uphill at 2mph, whereas when I started 5mph was plenty slow enough. I can easily now bimble along in traffic at 2mph and feel in control. It's all about practice and learning to ride a bike all over again. The trike would be easier, but heavier and slower.

They take some getting used to - after 500 miles I'm beginning to feel at home on it. Even been shopping on it - but in the early weeks I thought I'd never get the hang of it. Now I'm wondering what bike to do the Way of the Roses on this year - 'bent, hybrid or road bike?

Give one a go! You won't know until you try one!

Andy


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## stuee147 (5 Mar 2015)

i have a trike and i find it great for up hills there are hills that i always walked up with standard bikes but iv been able to ride up on my trike mainly because even at 2 or 3mph there is no chance of me falling so all my energy and thought just has peadeling to think about and as i have done on some big hills i can stop put the brake on and have a rest half way up if i need to. 
i have said before on other threads that to be honest i dont find recumbents much different to standard bikes when it comes down to effort you need to get up hills its just eisier to put the power in with a recumbent and you will end up with mussels you didnt even know you had after riding a recumbent for a day lol


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## steveindenmark (5 Mar 2015)

Tim, if you look at any recumbent advertising film, you will probably not see them going uphills. They are alwayszzooming downhills.

That is because recumbents are not very exciting uphills. You basically just relax and spin.


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## CopperBrompton (5 Mar 2015)

+1 for just twiddle your way up on a trike. Granny gear, and go as slow as you like. Up Ditchling Beacon, I was overtaken by several pedestrians, but I was one of the few to cycle all the way up.


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## windmiller (5 Mar 2015)

Are recumbents slower uphills - well yes and no.
During 2009/12 Ive cycled on a two wheel recumbent many 40/60 mile hilly routes with other DF riders who were quite competitive and heard the phrase " who said recumbents can't climb?" from them more than a few times. Firstly dodgy knees aside, spinning like a dervish is not the most economic way to tackle steep short hills. Even longer monsters can be attacked at speed and it is surprising how far up the hill you can get before you need to hit the zen zone spinning gears.

A fully laden trike on a multi day camping adventure will be far less exhausting on the body as a whole than its conventional diamond framed counterpart whatever the road throws at you.

A two wheeled recumbent requires a higher skill level to ride, beginners will find this tiring at first and people with limited leg power would fare better with 3 wheels.


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## Ganymede (6 Mar 2015)

Agree with a lot of what's been said. You can give yourself grief in the knees by trying to go up a hill as fast as you would on a road bike - the muscles you use are definitely different and you need to take a while to get used to it, not having the ability to get out of the saddle and use gravity. However the sheer fun and comfort of a 'bent outweigh these things if you persevere. I have to say, I use a hybrid as well and recently did a new route with a beeeeeg hill - I'm planning to try it on the 'bent but I'm glad I got it's measure on the hybrid first!


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## Tim O (6 Mar 2015)

Thank you all so much for all your replies - that's exactly what I wanted to hear! You've made me think twice about a trike though. I'll just have to give them both a go. I often do a bit of work in London, has anyone had any dealings with 'bikefix'? Or maybe I should call the chap in Ely that people talk well of. I'll let you know what happens on my voyage of discovery. Thanks again for taking the trouble to reply - all very useful.


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## byegad (6 Mar 2015)

I own three trikes, having owned a two wheel recumbent prior to my first trike. Forget about speed uphill, make sure you have a low enough bottom gear for the biggest hill you are likely to climb when tired at the end of a long day and enjoy the views while spinning up hill. My North Yorks Moors/Yorkshire Dales 'Trail' has a bottom gear of 12" and a top of 84". This gets me up 33% hills, slowly and with an occasional stop. For comparison my 'QNT' has 14-100" gearing and the Kettwiesel 15-94". 

I have ridden Durham's 'Big Ride' a few times on both the QNT and the Trail. The 'Big Ride' has a particularly steep section and last time I did the ride a group of roadies passed me on this stretch, they were out of the saddle and breathing hard as they went by. At the top of the climb the same group were laid out on the grass getting there breath back. As I passed them, I had more than enough breath to shout 'Get a move on you lazy lot' I didn't see them again until the end of the ride. 

All three of my trikes have descended at 50+mph and that is a real thrill. Tracking well and on the tadpoles (Two front wheels.) very safe as they have two front brakes and will comfortably out-brake any upright bike meaning you can really let the trike go on descents knowing that you can lose a lot of speed very quickly and safely, so long as you don't touch the front brake just after you've stopped!


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## starhawk (6 Mar 2015)

I bought the standard set up of gears (3x9) and I found that there was enough to go up even steep hills. For me it was enough to go one gear lower than on the mountainbike for most hills. Going on three wheels up is a real relief compared to two wheels, you can go as slow as you like with no wobble at all. But I got annoyed by the slow uphill speed, I don't like to crawl like a caterpiller. So I upgraded my trike to an e-trike, now I can go uphill at almost the same speed as on the flat. With it you can also do the little trick at trafficlights when you outrun even cars, not bad for a 62-years old guy on a trike. The question of a trike or a twowheel recumbent never arised for me, it was the trike, period.


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## Pale Rider (6 Mar 2015)

byegad said:


> I have ridden Durham's 'Big Ride' a few times on both the QNT and the Trail. The 'Big Ride' has a particularly steep section and last time I did the ride a group of roadies passed me on this stretch, they were out of the saddle and breathing hard as they went by. At the top of the climb the same group were laid out on the grass getting there breath back. As I passed them, I had more than enough breath to shout 'Get a move on you lazy lot' I didn't see them again until the end of the ride.



That wouldn't be Iveston Bank would it?

If so, you would have passed me half way up, laid out, trying to get my breath back.


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## byegad (6 Mar 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> That wouldn't be Iveston Bank would it?
> 
> If so, you would have passed me half way up, laid out, trying to get my breath back.


Using 12" gearing and take it steady is eventually faster than 30" gearing and half killing yourself. Especially when you get to my age of 21, 21, 21.


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## classic33 (6 Mar 2015)

Tim O said:


> Thank you all so much for all your replies - that's exactly what I wanted to hear! You've made me think twice about a trike though. I'll just have to give them both a go. I often do a bit of work in London, has anyone had any dealings with 'bikefix'? Or maybe I should call the chap in Ely that people talk well of. I'll let you know what happens on my voyage of discovery. Thanks again for taking the trouble to reply - all very useful.


Travelled down for a test ride if two I was interested in at Bikefix. Got there and neither of the trial cycles were present to try, even though they'd picked the day. 
Result was less than impressive, within ten minutes of entering the shop, I was leaving. A wasted journey down for me & a lost sale for them. Later bought one of the two I'd gone down to see from a private seller closer to home.

As for hills on a recumbent. It reduced the staff to tears of laugher when I said I'd be crossing the Pennine on one.


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## Tim O (7 Mar 2015)

Again, thank you to all. Every reply has something that is whetting my appetite! Bikefix sounds a bit unimpressive... I've just come across a second hand Kettwiesel for sale at what looks a reasonable price. It doesn't appear to have a triple though, but I assume a triple can be put on? I've taken on board the fact that, with a trike, you spin up steep hills in a granny gear but it's trickier (until you get the hang of it) on 2 wheeler. The Kettwiesel is cromoly. Any thoughts on them? Thanks again.


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## Ganymede (7 Mar 2015)

I did once topple over going up a steep bit on my 2-wheeler, but I've only done it once! I realised then that you have to keep low and keep spinning. My little moment was on a hump-backed railway bridge that has a steeper bit just at the top - exactly where, on my hybrid, I would stand up to get that extra bit of oomph, if I wasn't already in a low enough gear. I'd cycled over that bridge a thousand times on the hybrid so it took me well by surprise! No harm done and lesson learned!


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## ufkacbln (7 Mar 2015)

Tim O said:


> Again, thank you to all. Every reply has something that is whetting my appetite! Bikefix sounds a bit unimpressive... I've just come across a second hand Kettwiesel for sale at what looks a reasonable price. It doesn't appear to have a triple though, but I assume a triple can be put on? I've taken on board the fact that, with a trike, you spin up steep hills in a granny gear but it's trickier (until you get the hang of it) on 2 wheeler. The Kettwiesel is cromoly. Any thoughts on them? Thanks again.




The Kettweisel has no front dérailleur stem

You would need to by the dérailleur fitting first

Link here


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2015)

@Tim O. Surname Glock by any chance. The Irish racing driver?


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## Recycle (7 Mar 2015)

Dave McCraw has an excellent article on recumbent effieciency, including a bit on hills: http://mccraw.co.uk/recumbent-efficiency/
Personally I struggle up hills because I have a heavy over engineered speedmachine. On a two wheeler ability to handle hills boils down to weight. Less of an issue with a trike because you don't have to worry about stability so you can crank your way up a cliff as long as your gears go low enough.


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## Ganymede (8 Mar 2015)

Recycle said:


> Dave McCraw has an excellent article on recumbent effieciency, including a bit on hills: http://mccraw.co.uk/recumbent-efficiency/
> Personally I struggle up hills because I have a heavy over engineered speedmachine. On a two wheeler ability to handle hills boils down to weight. Less of an issue with a trike because you don't have to worry about stability so you can crank your way up a cliff as long as your gears go low enough.


This is why I am upgrading this Spring to a lighter machine! Mine weighs a ton!


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## Tim O (8 Mar 2015)

Thank you Cunobelin. I see you live just across the water from me. I used to do the Rowlands Castle loop on road races and time trials at Lee-on-Solent airfield circuit way back in the sixties (I was brought up in Pompey). Do you ever come over to the Island for the randonee? If (when) I get one perhaps we could get together and you could give me a few tips on trikes... Cheers and thanks to all.


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## Tim O (8 Mar 2015)

Recycle, that's a fascinating article. Food for thought and more encouragement to me to buy a 'bent!


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## ufkacbln (8 Mar 2015)

Tim O said:


> Thank you Cunobelin. I see you live just across the water from me. I used to do the Rowlands Castle loop on road races and time trials at Lee-on-Solent airfield circuit way back in the sixties (I was brought up in Pompey). Do you ever come over to the Island for the randonee? If (when) I get one perhaps we could get together and you could give me a few tips on trikes... Cheers and thanks to all.




I used to, but unfortunately an argument with tree many years ago resulted in a fractured hip / pelvis which is now beginning to play up so will not be doing this year unless things improve


The Kettwiesel is a lot of fun and would be recommended. I love it

You can mount more easily than a lower trike, but luggage is restricted to proprietary luggage as there is no rack

I have used Carradice saddlebags and a CF Trailer successfully along with the Radical Design and Hase luggage systems

Single wheel drive has an issue (for some) on gravel, and a lightly loaded front wheel can also cause issues.

I have a differential and Rohloff on mine which seems to have solved the drive issue, and have yet to lift the front wheel 

Where is the one for sale - if you can ride it and make sure that it is for you

Finally - check the year of the frame as there is a  drive bolt recall for trikes from Jan 2010 to Dec 2011  to consider


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## recumbentpanda (8 Mar 2015)

How low a gear you can put on a two wheel bent is largely governed by your ability to keep it going in a straight line as your speed drops lower and lower. This depends somewhat on the particular bike, and a lot on the amount of skill and practice you have. My long wheelbase two wheeler I can keep under control on the level at less than walking pace, but when struggling up a steep hill there is a speed below which steering corrections become very difficult or impossible. A clue that it's time to get off and walk.

You also have to allow for the development, over at least a couple of years steady riding of recumbent specific muscle groups. I put the lowest gearing my drivetrain set up would allow on when I first built up my bent. Now, I have gone up a couple of teeth on my lowest gear option and rarely find myself wanting lower. 

As with all bents, spinning not mashing is the key to efficiency for most people. Also, when you want to increase power, emphasise 'unweighting' the non-drive foot rather than pushing the driving foot.


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## Recycle (8 Mar 2015)

recumbentpanda said:


> As with all bents, spinning not mashing is the key to efficiency for most people. Also, when you want to increase power, emphasise 'unweighting' the non-drive foot rather than pushing the driving foot.


Yup. I think that most bent riders will agree that they use more gears on a recumbent than they would on an upright. Your legs will find a sweet spot and any change in the gradient or wind will quickly result in a change to stay in the sweet spot. Fixies are the fashion with uprights but a recumbent can never have too many gears. You will use them all.

I also think that clipless pedals are essential. They allow a push/pull pedal stroke which is more efficient. They also needed to allow your legs to fully relax without falling off the pedals when coasting.


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## ufkacbln (8 Mar 2015)

Recycle said:


> Yup. I think that most bent riders will agree that they use more gears on a recumbent than they would on an upright. Your legs will find a sweet spot and any change in the gradient or wind will quickly result in a change to stay in the sweet spot. Fixies are the fashion with uprights but a recumbent can never have too many gears. You will use them all.
> 
> I also think that clipless pedals are essential. They allow a push/pull pedal stroke which is more efficient. They also needed to allow your legs to fully relax without falling off the pedals when coasting.




Also if you lose grip on a pedal catching your leg between road and frame on a trike is not advisable


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## Tim O (9 Mar 2015)

Thank you again to all. I agree about clipless pedals - I have them on my road and MTB and I can see it makes even more sense on a 'bent.

Unfortunately, the Kettwiesel has gone (the seller hadn't updated his website) so I think a communication with Kevin at D-TEK and a visit to Ely is the next thing on the cards. I'll keep you posted.


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## starhawk (11 Mar 2015)

Recycle said:


> I also think that clipless pedals are essential. They allow a push/pull pedal stroke which is more efficient. They also needed to allow your legs to fully relax without falling off the pedals when coasting.



Experiments done in that field show that push/pull pedal stroke is not more efficient, moreover some people can't learn to use that technique and are therefore more efficient in traditionell push only pedal stroke


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## paul fellows (11 Mar 2015)

I’m no expert [at anything] but with regards to the balance question! I have seen a program about mountain unicycling, if they can go up hill on 1 wheel you should manage on 2.

how do they manage this? Practice, and there centre of mass is high which means they fall over more slowly.


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## arallsopp (11 Mar 2015)

I've tackled a fair number of hills on my 'bents.

£ for lb, a 'bent is likely to weigh more than a comparatively priced upright, so physics alone will dictate that lugging it up hills is harder than a 'normal' bike. Harder doesn't make it prohibitive, of course. For me, hills come at two speeds.

1. Momentum powered rocket ship. Top gear, burst up, hit the top before I run out of oomph (surprisingly effective)
2. Winching myself up on the cranks. Bottom gear, overtaken by snails, ladybirds, etc...

You'd think after 7 years I'd have developed a better technique, but all I'm really doing is holding onto approach one for longer.

After the first 6 months, I found my legs had adapted and I could climb better on the 'bent than I'd ever done on an upright.


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## classic33 (12 Mar 2015)

paul fellows said:


> I’m no expert [at anything] but with regards to the balance question! I have seen a program about mountain unicycling, if they can go up hill on 1 wheel you should manage on 2.
> 
> how do they manage this? Practice, and there centre of mass is high which means they fall over more slowly.


Practice


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## paul fellows (15 Mar 2015)

An Automatic Constant Load Variable Transition for Bikes

ACLVT

The idea is that you are speeding along at a pedalling load that is right for you. As the road gets steeper, the force needed to turn the pedals stays the same as the gear ratio changes smoothly.

To make this work will require a belt and pulley drive, rather than chain drive.


Any interest?


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## classic33 (16 Mar 2015)

paul fellows said:


> An Automatic Constant Load Variable Transition for Bikes
> 
> ACLVT
> 
> ...


What does it cost and what are its limitations?


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## Encephrich (16 Mar 2015)

Must admit I was initially daunted by the prospect of Triking uphill, with the extra frame weight over the DF, until I developed my strategy thru experience.

Approach hill change to suitable gear & ratio,
start climb, then-
spin,
rest,
spin,
tea break,
spin,
finish book,
spin,
more tea,
spin,
succeed...


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## Rickshaw Phil (16 Mar 2015)

paul fellows said:


> An Automatic Constant Load Variable Transition for Bikes
> 
> ACLVT
> 
> ...


Sounds like the NuVinci Harmony to me: http://www.fallbrooktech.com/cycling/harmony


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## paul fellows (16 Mar 2015)

Phill that look a lot better than what i was thinking.
i had in mind to use two deep V pulleys, both of have been cut in half such that the gap between the two faces can be adjusted, there by changing the radius around witch the belt has to travel.

as to the cost
1 belts are less efficant than chains.
2 in it automatic version its acceleration would be SLUGish
3 you would have to build it your self, i am selling nothing.


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## voyager (24 Mar 2015)

After 2 years or more on three wheels I don't know a lot of difference ,
3 wheels on a hill is slower but all the concentration can be put into climbing and not trying not to fall off !!

I remember the pain of doing the IOW randonee 3 or 4 years in a row about 1986 on a DF road bike . 

Some guy did two laps one year .with an hours break between !!!!!
I found the weather change in such a small island was also a challenge - rain and wind one side and sun the other .
The military road with a headwind . then waiting for the ferry in brilliant sunshine 

After buying a Trex trike that I was not satisfied with, I built my own trikes and having passed 21 (three times ) I have gone the e-assist route ( with a built-in freewheel unit ) , now with gears from 18" to 88 " I don't have a problem with hills even without the assist .I haven't ridden around the IOW for almost 30 year years - might be time to come over with the trikes . Black gang chine watch out !!!!!!

regards emma


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## starhawk (25 Mar 2015)

I can do a hill without e-assist, have done it once with my tires not properly inflated, that was tough! But the problem for me was that you have to gear down which gives a very slow "creeping up hill" experience, I don't like that  So I bought the e-assist kit and the problem was solved. But if I run out of "juice" in the battery I can do it "the old way", but I much rather do it on three wheels then on two!


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## JimN (13 Apr 2015)

Tim O said:


> Unfortunately, the Kettwiesel has gone (the seller hadn't updated his website) so I think a communication with Kevin at D-TEK and a visit to Ely is the next thing on the cards. I'll keep you posted.


Kevin is indeed a great guy - IF you can get hold of him! If you do, please remind him that Jim (from Bradford) has been trying to get hold of him for a while. 
For the last five years I have had the choice of doing a 25 mile round commute on a DF or a Trice. I much prefer the Trice. Partly because I feel so much safer on it (two leg #'s, left femur and left hip, off DFs - both my fault), but also because it is so much more enjoyable and relaxing. The longer the trip the better. On a short journey timing on the road is about the same overall as a heavy expedition bike - but 10% slower than a road bike but this gets better the greater the mileage as you don't have the same compulsion to get off and have a break. As others have said, hills give you time to read a book or chat on the phone, but then you need to put them away to really enjoy the downhill. I have also passed 21 almost three times and am looking forward to putting even more miles in. Best memory? Trying to beat a Reliant Robin to the top of a hill on an ice covered road with neither of us being able to get any real traction.


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## henshaw11 (19 Apr 2015)

Not sure I'm adding that much to what's been written before, but a little more 2-wheel perspective. As arallsop wrote, there's keeping momentum on the downs to get you up most of the following climb, powering up the last bit - this works well on rolling terrain, and typically stuff that's less steep or v short. Longer and/or steeper climbs and you quickly drop down the gears to find one that's manageable - obviously riding with a bunch of roadies is a problem 'cos they often do neither. The more problematic bit is on 2-wheelers you need a minimum speed to keep stable, and at some combination of incline/leg strength/gearing one runs out of spin speed, and have to winch up. My lowest gear on the (35-40 lbs) Speedmachine is 30 (f)-32(r) with a 26" wheel (I forget the gear-inches) I can just about get up 18%-ers on that (and we've a few in the Surrey hills) - at some point I'll try swapping for a 26 granny but it probably needs to be a little lower still to spin up smoothly. With a trike you've the luxury of stability, with various combinations of triples, wheel sizes, Schlumph (?) mountain drives etc you should be able to get up anything albeit v. slowly.

It's worth adding that some use short cranks on 'bents - the 140-155 range- there's less leverage but for some makes spinning quickly easier... obviously you need a low enough gear for that.

Some of my riding is with my local road club at the gym, keeping up with roadies in a group is a bit more important, even shallow climbs were killing me trying to keep up with a 10 kg difference. So to that extent I've just ordered a 9-10kg (20-22lb) Fujin SL2 lowracer from Laidback- I'll probably have to play with the gearing but at least puts me in the same weight/gearing range as my hardtail mtbs, and I used to get up most stuff seated with that.


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