# Which touring bike?



## steveindenmark (13 Oct 2012)

I am looking for a long distance touring bike. I am about 11 stones and will be carrying about 20kg of gear. The bike must be able to go on a plane.

Ideally, I would like it with front and rear pannier racks and at least 2 bottle holders. The bike will be used for non speedy Golazez touring.

The budget is about £1500 but can be taken up a notch at a push.

I have just started searching and the Koga bikes look appealing.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Steve


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## stumpy66 (13 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I am looking for a long distance touring bike. I am about 11 stones and will be carrying about 20kg of gear. The bike must be able to go on a plane.
> 
> Ideally, I would like it with front and rear pannier racks and at least 2 bottle holders. The bike will be used for non speedy Golazez touring.
> 
> ...


I have a hewitt chevoit se and its been faultless, you can spec whatever you like on the bike and Paul Hewitt is well known for building great wheels. He also offers a fitting service and is useful to chat through with him about the options. the chevoit se has stainless steel dropouts, 3 sets of bottle mounts. I went for tubus racks and have been great, think the cheviot se can be had for around 1500. My mate has a thorn sherpa which he loves, there is also the dawes galaxy, but im sure there will be others along with more knowledge of other bikes.


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## jakegil (13 Oct 2012)

Hi Steve

I fancy this if I was going to get a new tourer

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/disc_trucker

Can be had for £1078. I have heard good things about Koga though. I do like steel though

Jake


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## stumpy66 (13 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I am looking for a long distance touring bike. I am about 11 stones and will be carrying about 20kg of gear. The bike must be able to go on a plane.
> 
> Ideally, I would like it with front and rear pannier racks and at least 2 bottle holders. The bike will be used for non speedy Golazez touring.
> 
> ...


My preference is for a steel frame, more comfortable than alu and easier to repair, titanium would be great but more expensive


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## HelenD123 (13 Oct 2012)

I'd second Stumpy's suggestion of a Paul Hewitt bike. It would definitely be top of my list for a new tourer. I've got a Dawes Ultra Galaxy but don't think they're great value.

I don't know what the Spa Cycles tourers are like but I'd also have a look at one of those. They know they're stuff and are usually good value.


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## middleagecyclist (13 Oct 2012)

Primarily sealed or unsealed roads and where in the World will you be touring? What is Golazez touring please?


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## numbnuts (13 Oct 2012)

Not the prettiest bike in the rack, but the Thorn Club Tour is a nice bike to ride


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## Aushiker (13 Oct 2012)

I am probably biased but I am pretty happy with my Surly Long Haul Trucker. Another option is the Vivente Randonneur but I am not sure that you can get these in the UK.







Thorn bikes are seem to get favourable mentions.

Andrew


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## oldfatfool (13 Oct 2012)

I am happy with my Ridgeback Panorama,


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## Danny (13 Oct 2012)

I also have a Hewitt Cheviot and would definitely recommend one. It is a good touring bike and Paul will fit it out with any combination of components you want - and if you are not sure what you need he can offer good advice.

Even more importantly I would recommend that you buy from somewhere with the sort of bike fitting service that Paul Hewitt offers as you really want a machine that fits you well if you are going to be doing long distance touring.


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## middleagecyclist (13 Oct 2012)

I'm getting a Hewitt for Audaxing. Great bikes and service.


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## steveindenmark (13 Oct 2012)

I will pour through your suggestions and come back with questions. Thanks a lot for sending them.

I just had to say to middleagecyclist "Do you not know who Speedy Gonzalez is?"

Being middleaged, you must do. That is unless I am very old 

I am 54.

By the way guys, as my name suggests, I am in Denmark and even though a trip to a bespoke British bike builder sounds appealing. It would add a bit too much onto the cost of the bike. Any off the peg bike suggestions would be good.

Steve


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## middleagecyclist (13 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I will pour through your suggestions and come back with questions. Thanks a lot for sending them.
> 
> I just had to say to middleagecyclist "Do you not know who Speedy Gonzalez is?"
> 
> ...


Ahh! The fastest mouse in all of Mexico. Now i comprende!


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## steveindenmark (13 Oct 2012)

and I don`t want to be riding like him,


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## Milo (13 Oct 2012)

oldfatfool said:


> I am happy with my Ridgeback Panorama,


I have a Ridgeback romany which looks similar to this. Much older though I would guess. Athough I have struggled to find out much about it. I'm assuming the op wants new though so wont start recommending anything second hand.


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## Erudin (13 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I am looking for a long distance touring bike. I am about 11 stones and will be carrying about 20kg of gear. The bike must be able to go on a plane....
> 
> Steve


 
A bike with S&S Couplers would pack smaller.

http://surlybikes.com/bikes/trucker_deluxe

http://salsacycles.com/culture/new_for_2013_introducing_vaya_travel

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/413699-Putting-my-bike-in-a-suitcase


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## hoopdriver (15 Oct 2012)

I've got an old Thorn eXp with better than 80,000 miles on it. It has been ridden all over the world over the past 13 years and is still going strong, now as a winter bike. I love it and would recommend Thorn highly.


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## doog (15 Oct 2012)

hoopdriver said:


> I've got an old Thorn eXp with better than *80,000 moles* on it..


 
let the buggers walk


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## hoopdriver (15 Oct 2012)

doog said:


> let the buggers walk


I agree.

In the meantime I fixed my keystroke error!

It's 80,000 MILES on the Thorn...


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## Soltydog (15 Oct 2012)

oldfatfool said:


> I am happy with my Ridgeback Panorama,


Ditto
I was going for a LHT but delivery kept getting put back, but I ended up getting £200 discount on the Panorama & quicker delivery  the Panorama comes with STI type shifters which was a big plus for me over the bar ends & comes fully kitted with front & rear racks, mudguards & 3 bottle cages.


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## clarion (16 Oct 2012)

It depends. I like my touring bikes a bit nippier, so I loved my Orbit Silver Medal (no longer made). I've now got a Ridgeback Romany (like milo, it seems), which is a great bike, and very steady, but not so quick, really. I like the look of the new Ridgebacks. But if I were speccing a new touring bike (and I hope I am very soon), I would go for a hub gear - Alfine or Rohloff. And I'd mate that to a good quality frame like a Bob Jackson, rather than the very stodgy Thorns. Ideally with disc brakes.

Disc brakes and hub gears also points in the direction of the Genesis Day One Alfine, which is very attractive.

All that said, I do like the look of the Singular Peregrine.


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## Blue Hills (16 Oct 2012)

Just scanned the thread so apologies if I've missed something.

Is the OP looking for flat or drop bars?


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## Brains (16 Oct 2012)

hoopdriver said:


> I've got an old Thorn eXp with better than 80,000 miles on it. It has been ridden all over the world over the past 13 years and is still going strong, now as a winter bike. I love it and would recommend Thorn highly.


I have a Thorn Nomad with a mear 22,000 'moles' on the clock, so I would also suggest that thorn are worth a very close look. They do supply bikes with S&S couplings, and more importantly they sell most of their bikes by mail order, they ask lot of questions about your size and riding styles and then build a bike to your size and spec. So the fact that you are in Denmark will make no difference to them


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## cnb (16 Oct 2012)

I have a surly LHT and love it..Bit of a tank though...


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## biped (16 Oct 2012)

Another vote for the 631 Hewitt Cheviot. The same frame/bike can also be had from Ghyllside Cycles in Ambleside, who are enthusiastic and helpful (as are Hewitt). I have a 26" wheeled version, and it's been great, though I wish I'd gone for the 700c version in retrospect (It's a 58cm frame). Thorn are very much worth a look and great for advice.
20 kg carrying weight and 11stones is lighter than me and my load, so if you want to go cheaper and lighter a Surly Crosscheck may be the answer.
I wouldn't touch Spa with my worst enemy's bargepole no matter how good their bikes are.
Re going on a plane, do a search, there are threads about this. Flying with a full sized bike is _generally_ no problem if you pack it appropriately.


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## Brains (16 Oct 2012)

biped said:


> I wouldn't touch Spa with my worst enemy's bargepole no matter how good their bikes are.
> .


 
Pray tell why


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## jay clock (16 Oct 2012)

I know most Brits go for a drop barred bike with 700c wheels, but I have the option taken by lots of German/Dutch cyclists with 26" wheels and flat bars. Rock solid, just done 2400km with one broken spoke only. Mine is Koga Miyata Worl Traveller


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## Alberto (16 Oct 2012)

I built a surly LHT over the winter, with new and second-hand parts, all well under £1000, including tubus racks front and back. It is very nice indeed, very stable when loaded. Nothing too fancy, just reliable stuff. I did look at the S & S couplers option, but I very much doubt you are going to find a complete bike for under £1500...but if you do travel with it a lot, it may be worth it?


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## clarion (16 Oct 2012)

I forgot to add that I've tried out a few other tourers lately, courtesy of Brixton Cycles and other friends. I liked the feel of the Disc Trucker, and had an extended ride on a mate's LHT. Very comfortable, if a bit soggy. I really liked the Cross Check, and would happily tour on one. Very responsive machine, not heavy, but you know you can rely on it absolutely. I also rode a Salsa Vaya. Very very pretty bike. Sadly, it was very disappointing in action, and took a while to get going when I put the power in. Also felt a bit wobbly in the bends. Not recommended, though YMMV of course.


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## BigonaBianchi (16 Oct 2012)

On the trans american tour this summer i met several long haul trucker riders...i rode one around th eblock...it was heavy compared to my dawes galaxy 2007 ...and felt sluggish by comparison..it was also a smaller frame so i was expecting it to be lighter and faster but it wasnt. This was unloaded by the way.

Cant recommend the galaxy enough...solid reliable..fast...good on the climbs, stable downhill, carries weight very well etc


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## cnb (17 Oct 2012)

I recently treated myself to a Dawes ultra galaxy, courtesy of picton cycles..2011 model..huge discount...So i couldnt resist it...It seems a great bike..Only been to work on it a few times so far, but feels a good ride.If picton still has them its a good price.


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## biped (17 Oct 2012)

Brains said:


> Pray tell why


 

Poor and lazy mail order service which compromised a planned tour and a staggeringly disinterested and verbally aggressive response when I rang to say that I would be returning the items and why.
There are plenty of threads on various fora about Spa's attitude. Lets not hijack this thread and keep on topic. I'll happily expand if you want ether by pm or on another thread.


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## steveindenmark (17 Oct 2012)

It is really good to get so many replies.

My current bike is Trek lexa SL. Yes I know it is a ladys bike  Said the ex army welterweight boxing champion. 

I use it for light touring and it is an excellent bike for me. It feels to be a fraction shorter than bikes I have had in the past and so I sit up more and I like that position. The reason I think I need a dedicated touring bike is that I will be pulling a trailer on our trips before long.

We are buying a whippet and need a trailer for it to ride in. Not the heaviest dog in the world but I don`t think my Trek is up to dragging a trailer.

It will be 90% tarmac riding and the other 10% will be hard packed level surfaces, all in europe, and so I do not think that a steel frame is paramount. I am leaning towards the Koga Miyata World Traveller as I have only read good reports about it.

Unless someone knows different?

Steve


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## BigonaBianchi (17 Oct 2012)

Erm..shouldn't the dog be pulling you mate


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## steveindenmark (17 Oct 2012)

BigonaBianchi said:


> Erm..shouldn't the dog be pulling you mate


 
Its a whippet...I can`t pedal that fast 

My girlfriend says it is a dog that will suit me "Build for speed, not distance".

What is she referring to, I wonder? 

Steve


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## Nigeyy (21 Oct 2012)

Surly LHTs are fine bikes -however, since this is a board, I've got some opinions on them:


LHTs -at least over here in the USA -pretty much were the only option for touring bikes for quite a time at the touring entry price point, and you could also add in the fact you could buy a frame only (which, on the face of it, means you can seemingly get a purpose touring frame at an even lower price point -unless of course, you actually added up the real costs -but at least it _felt_ like you could). Add to this Surly is owned by QBP -which meant they could market the bikes through their own sales channels -QBP is _the_ really big time supplier/distributor for almost all local bike shops, and it meant you could go down to almost any bike shop and order one (this at a time when you were lucky to even find a touring bike in a shop). So the sales channel was really excellent, and then the marketing chaps at Surly gave you the idea that Surlys were being knocked out by some tattoo grunged gnarly American iron worker in the back streets of some gritty American metropolis (stroke of marketing genius!).

Anyway, this meant, in my opinion, they became the de facto touring bike in the States. And, I have to say, for good reason: the frame, though not fancy, was touring specific and well built. Given all this, and with the internet forum boards, I think the LHT gained a little bit of a touring legend status -a status I can't help but feel is not entirely deserved.

But here's the rub; I'm convinced it wasn't so much it was_ that good_, it was just that there wasn't any other reasonable competition within the same price point, let alone having the marketing or sales outlet power or the jazzed up image generated by Surly marketing machine. The mantra became "get an LHT" whenever someone asked "what touring bike" (assuming they were on the lower end of the price spectrum).

The truth of the matter is that LHTs (at least the ones I've seen) have in my opinion, at best, mediocre paint finishes (admittedly they could have improved since I last saw one), are heavy, use (in relative terms) lower specced steel and are knocked up in some factory in Taiwan (Surly Bikes, by the way, is based not in some gritty metropolis, but in the safe middle class suburb of Bloomington, Minnesota, home of America's largest shopping mall, and I'll bet the executive management wears ties, too  Ordinarily I wouldn't put this sort of stuff in a post, but if you visit the Surly web site, the image it tries to depict is so far off reality and so full of marketing [insert whatever word you want here] seemingly aimed at adolescent boys, I just can't resist.

Finally, I do want to reiterate LHTs are good and worthy bikes (I'd recommend one for the price point it occupies over here in the States), just that I think they really aren't that great. I can't help but think there has to be better options over there in the UK. Maybe it's the fact they aren't that common in the UK it gives them a bit of cachet?


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## avalon (21 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I am looking for a long distance touring bike. I am about 11 stones and will be carrying about 20kg of gear. The bike must be able to go on a plane.
> 
> Ideally, I would like it with front and rear pannier racks and at least 2 bottle holders. The bike will be used for non speedy Golazez touring.
> 
> ...


Are you beginning to wish you hadn't asked for suggestions?


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## Bodhbh (21 Oct 2012)

Nigeyy said:


> Finally, I do want to reiterate LHTs are good and worthy bikes (I'd recommend one for the price point it occupies over here in the States), just that I think they really aren't that great. I can't help but think there has to be better options over there in the UK. Maybe it's the fact they aren't that common in the UK it gives them a bit of cachet?


 
I'm not sure. I've seen a one or two proped up against walls when about. I don't keep too much of an eye on the market but they seem reasonably priced too, coming in at under £1000.


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## Herbie (21 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I am looking for a long distance touring bike. I am about 11 stones and will be carrying about 20kg of gear. The bike must be able to go on a plane.
> 
> Ideally, I would like it with front and rear pannier racks and at least 2 bottle holders. The bike will be used for non speedy Golazez touring.
> 
> ...


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## snorri (21 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I am leaning towards the Koga Miyata World Traveller


 with a Rohloff hub.


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## steveindenmark (21 Oct 2012)

Avalon the more suggestions the better. It is good to have options. By the way, what they sell in the UK does not apply to me as I am in Denmark.

Steve


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## Alberto (21 Oct 2012)

Nigeyy said:


> Surly LHTs are fine bikes -however, since this is a board, I've got some opinions on them:
> 
> 
> LHTs -at least over here in the USA -pretty much were the only option for touring bikes for quite a time at the touring entry price point, and you could also add in the fact you could buy a frame only (which, on the face of it, means you can seemingly get a purpose touring frame at an even lower price point -unless of course, you actually added up the real costs -but at least it _felt_ like you could). Add to this Surly is owned by QBP -which meant they could market the bikes through their own sales channels -QBP is _the_ really big time supplier/distributor for almost all local bike shops, and it meant you could go down to almost any bike shop and order one (this at a time when you were lucky to even find a touring bike in a shop). So the sales channel was really excellent, and then the marketing chaps at Surly gave you the idea that Surlys were being knocked out by some tattoo grunged gnarly American iron worker in the back streets of some gritty American metropolis (stroke of marketing genius!).
> ...


 
That's is a very interesting reply, which I totally agree with. They do have great marketing (which I often find silly), and produce some unusual bikes for which there's (or there was!) a market gap. I very much doubt there's other competitors, other than Dawes over here, at the same price range. Surely in the UK there's plenty of other touring options, most of which I did consider when I built mine. However, they all come at a higher price, some from companies that I do not particularly like either. I went for the good-value for money tag, rather than cachet or cool looks that Surly have. After all, unless you are planning on going on a very very epic tour, I cannot justify spending all the money than the other companies involve. And even then, there seems to be plenty of people who have done plenty of touring on LHTs, more than I will probably ever do, without a problem.


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## cnb (21 Oct 2012)

The most important thing about Surly LHTs and Surly cross checks, is that everyone that owns one seems to like them..Pretty much sums it up really...


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## Nigeyy (22 Oct 2012)

Yes, most people do (though my friend who had one didn't care for it, and ended up selling it and getting the Salsa Vaya which I think is a great bike). Still, I think my point is that it's a lot easier to like something when it may be the only thing available within your price point and works for what it is intended for. 

For full disclosure, I have a Dawes Sardar (old steel model) which I love and much prefer to the LHT. And yes, if I was looking for an entry level touring bike (at least over here in the States) I'd more than likely end up with an LHT given the only other new option is likely to be a Fuji touring or Windsor touring bike (though again, that's not exactly superlative praise, more like just settling isn't it?).

If I was in the UK however, I'd definitely check out the Dawes models, and the Hewitt Cheviot. I'm not a big fan of Thorns -but only from an aesthetic perspective -and I'd check them out too. Course, now I think we're moving into a different price range.

Anyway, for the OP -within reason, it's not so much about the bike, more about the ability to get out there (plenty of people have toured on touring or even non-touring specific bikes and still made it! I toured on a $4 frame I bought from a scrap yard quite nicely, thanks). I think any of the models mentioned will make great touring bikes. The best touring bike is the bike out on tour.



cnb said:


> The most important thing about Surly LHTs and Surly cross checks, is that everyone that owns one seems to like them..Pretty much sums it up really...


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## middleagecyclist (22 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> I have just started searching and the Koga bikes look appealing.


I looked at the Koga World Traveller but ended up getting a Rohloff equipped Santos Travelmaster which I love. They are both more of an expedition bike than a typical touring bike though - heavy, very strong, stable under big loads and low maintenance. It handles well on and off road and is very comfy. The weight does reduce the average speed but that is hardly a problem if doing a fully loaded type of tour or for my all weather work commute.

This is it when I got it a couple of years ago. Not changed much but I now have a SON hub and Schmidt Edelux on it.


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## Crankarm (22 Oct 2012)

I looked at the Santos but it doesn't have disc brakes and Santos have no plans to make one. They prefer hydraulic rim brakes.


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## steveindenmark (22 Oct 2012)

Probably because if you are out in the bush and disc brakes go wrong they are harder to fix.

Your Santos is a lovely looking bike.

Another one on the list


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## cnb (22 Oct 2012)

Have to say,Thats a nice looking bike...I also have a Dawes ultra Galaxy(courtesy picton cycles who were selling them discounted)..Havent used it that much yet,But it seems a good bike..


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## middleagecyclist (22 Oct 2012)

Crankarm said:


> I looked at the Santos but it doesn't have disc brakes and Santos have no plans to make one. They prefer hydraulic rim brakes.


I've no probs with disc brakes...they are great on my MTB and the way they are going I would certainly not dismiss them on a road bike in the future as well.

I bought the Santos with an eye on a possible future extended tour of several weeks through Europe and possibly into Asia or Africa. I wanted the bike to be as easy to maintain as possible so for me the availability of parts as well as ease of mechanical fiddling were paramount, hence the heavy duty frame, 26" wheels, Schwalbe Marathon tyres, etc. The Shimono XT rim brakes (non hydraulic) are easy to manage and stop the fully loaded bike with nae probs at all. In fact, the only 'complicated' essential bit on the bike is the Rohloff hub and that has such a good reputation I am willing to risk its possible failure balanced against the ease of maintaining it compared to standard gear set up. Just my thoughts and not to everyones taste i'm sure.


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## P.H (23 Oct 2012)

cnb said:


> The most important thing about Surly LHTs and Surly cross checks, is that everyone that owns one seems to like them..Pretty much sums it up really...


That would be easier to accept if they didn't so regularly appear in the classifieds.


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## P.H (23 Oct 2012)

I have a Hewitt Cheviot SE, IMO probably one of the best off the peg steel tourers available. Though I think it's better suited to tarmac touring that expedition roughstuff. It's also a decent ride unloaded, I've done a few 200 and 300k Audax on mine and it was fine.
However, I bought mine eight years ago and things have moved on. Frame materials have moved on, Titanium has become more readily available and the price has dropped to the same or sometimes cheaper than quality steel. Both Spa's own tourer and the Sabbath Silk Route are available for just a little over your budget. The CTC mag review of the Spa tourer gave it a big thumbs up, the reviewer liked it so much he bought it!
http://beta.ctc.org.uk/file/member/201107062_0.pdf


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## Crankarm (24 Oct 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> Probably because if you are out in the bush and disc brakes go wrong they are harder to fix.
> 
> Your Santos is a lovely looking bike.
> 
> Another one on the list


 
And how do disc brakes go wrong? It is far easier replacing pads or rotors than trying to get a new wheel built. Doh!

I would suggest worn out or split rims using rim brakes are much more likely than disc brakes failing. But then again car and motorcycle manufacturers have got it totally wrong by changing from cable operated brakes to drum brakes to disc brakes ....................

The Santos above would look even nicer with disc brakes.


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## Yellow7 (24 Oct 2012)

Crankarm said:


> And how do disc brakes go wrong? It is far easier replacing pads or rotors than trying to get a new wheel built. Doh!
> 
> I would suggest worn out or split rims using rim brakes are much more likely than disc brakes failing. But then again car and motorcycle manufacturers have got it totally wrong by changing from cable operated brakes to drum brakes to disc brakes ....................
> 
> The Santos above would look even nicer with disc brakes.


 
Surely it’s not about ‘looks’ but performance, reliability & servicability, especially when in the middle of nowhere. Simplicity is the best design, disc brakes not being the case, especially hydraulic ones.

A car’s ‘braking-power to weight’ ratio is far greater than a mere loaded bicycle, so from an engineering point of view that’s an irrelevant comparison.

Today I've just collected my wheels after having new rims fitted (DRC MT19's again) of which after 18,000 miles (with rims brakes) were still running fine & never had a problem with them, although to minimise the possibility of wheel problems on the next big tour decided it time to have new rims.


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## middleagecyclist (24 Oct 2012)

Crankarm said:


> The Santos above would look even nicer with disc brakes.


I think it's just dandy as it is. It does the job i want it to do with minimal fuss and is easy to maintain. If others want disc brakes on such a bike that's fine by me but it's not something i regret deciding against.


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## Crankarm (24 Oct 2012)

Yellow7 said:


> Surely it’s not about ‘looks’ but performance, reliability & servicability, especially when in the middle of nowhere. Simplicity is the best design, disc brakes not being the case, especially hydraulic ones.
> 
> A car’s ‘braking-power to weight’ ratio is far greater than a mere loaded bicycle, so from an engineering point of view that’s an irrelevant comparison.
> 
> Today I've just collected my wheels after having new rims fitted (DRC MT19's again) of which after 18,000 miles (with rims brakes) were still running fine & never had a problem with them, although to minimise the possibility of wheel problems on the next big tour decided it time to have new rims.


 
I guess you must be a Luddite.


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## Crankarm (24 Oct 2012)

middleagecyclist said:


> I think it's just dandy as it is. It does the job i want it to do with minimal fuss and is easy to maintain. If others want disc brakes on such a bike that's fine by me but it's not something i regret deciding against.


 
A fair enough explanation.

I ride 12,000 miles a year. For the past 6 months I have been riding to work on my Kona Kula MTB kitted out for touring so full mudguards, rack and panniers. It has hydraulic disc brakes. I ride this MTB as my commuter bike, a rim braked Specialised Sirrus with 700C wheels was damaged beyond repair when I was knocked down jan 2011. On reflection I would not go back to riding a rim braked bike if riding a high mileage everyday unless I s'pose it was a road bike as the maintenance required is so much higher not to mention all the crud and muck generated by brake blocks helping to wear down rims. I have not had a single issue with disc brakes in just under 6k miles of riding except for whining/rubbing when I first started riding but which disappeared after a little thoughtful fettling. I stop just as quickly in the wet as the dry irrespective of load. The Kona's wheel rims are still like new.


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## Nigeyy (24 Oct 2012)

I'll chime in: being _reliable enough_.

I'll grant that disc brakes by comparison are relatively more complex, but that shouldn't really be the issue to focus on. STI's and Ergos, RapidFire, GripShift are all arguably more complex than the good old downtube friction shifter, but you won't see those shifters on any average road bike. That's because all of them are _reliable enough_ to be used day to day (as well as offering other benefits, but let's not go there). Want another example? Goodness knows what cyclists in the 20th Century were saying about derailleurs ("far too complex, less reliable......" etc etc yet who would advise against using a derailleur now? Or even give it a second thought? And exactly how serviceable is a blown apart rear derailleur anyway? Taking this a step further, how serviceable is a broken rim brake anyway? And we haven't even touched upon an internally geared hub (now we can talk about complex!  

FWIW, I've had more problems with traditional rim brakes than my disc brakes. I can see the point of saying a disc brake is more complex, but given other bicycle components and my own personal experience with them, I have a hard time agreeing to the old chestnut of saying they have meaningful disadvantages (assuming you have a good quality disc brake setup). It really depends. Yes, simplicity is a great design factor, but at the same time, it doesn't mean to say other more complex designs can't be reliable enough or offer their own advantages.

Anyway, you pays your money, you takes your choice!



Yellow7 said:


> Surely it’s not about ‘looks’ but performance, reliability & servicability, especially when in the middle of nowhere. Simplicity is the best design, disc brakes not being the case, especially hydraulic ones.


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## middleagecyclist (24 Oct 2012)

Nigeyy said:


> I'll chime in: being _reliable enough_.
> 
> I'll grant that disc brakes by comparison are relatively more complex, but that shouldn't really be the issue to focus on. STI's and Ergos, RapidFire, GripShift are all arguably more complex than the good old downtube friction shifter, but you won't see those shifters on any average road bike. That's because all of them are _reliable enough_ to be used day to day (as well as offering other benefits, but let's not go there). Want another example? Goodness knows what cyclists in the 20th Century were saying about derailleurs ("far too complex, less reliable......" etc etc yet who would advise against using a derailleur now? Or even give it a second thought? And exactly how serviceable is a blown apart rear derailleur anyway? Taking this a step further, how serviceable is a broken rim brake anyway? And we haven't even touched upon an internally geared hub (now we can talk about complex!
> 
> ...


That's my feeling with the Rohloff - complex but pretty reliable. On the other hand i think why use something more complex/harder to source parts for for when the simple stuff does the job fine? Saying that i am now considering disc brakes on my soon to be ordered Audax bike...


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## cnb (24 Oct 2012)

P.H said:


> That would be easier to accept if they didn't so regularly appear in the classifieds.


 I didnt know they appeared in the classified adds on a regular basis..When i first became interested in the LHTs and read up about them, all the information and feedback was positive.Ps Ebays full of Boardman bikes,specialized, trek etc and they are good bikes (some)..Horses for courses...


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## Yellow7 (25 Oct 2012)

Crankarm said:


> I guess you must be a Luddite.


 
Guess / Guessing: To assume, presume, or assert (a fact) without sufficient information.


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## antnee (25 Oct 2012)

What about the Trek Range as my one as lots of fittings for front panniers and has two bottle fixing places though it is an ali frame. But in the end you will have to mike up your own mind.I had all the kit apart from front panniers for just under £500.00


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## Recycle (25 Oct 2012)

I have done many miles on my Dawes ultra galaxy and I'm generally happy with it. The components are robust and the bike has never let me down. One caveat. If you stand on the pedals when the bike is under a heavy touring load there is noticeable frame flex. I have never toured with front panniers so I don't know if a more balanced load will resolve the problem.


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## Bodhbh (26 Oct 2012)

Nigeyy said:


> being _reliable enough_.


 
I think this is the key and my feeling. Most systems that get endlessly chewed over on forums are "reliable enough".

The only two issues I've had that became showstoppers in the field are: broken spokes, and a alu frame snapping (these things always seem to go wrong pretty much right at the end, thank god). So, I like steel and handbuilt rear wheels. After that, pretty much anything goes at least for touring in Europe.

It does mystify my why say Thorn are so evangelical about the Rohloff on one hand, and so absolutely dead against hydraulic discs on another - both seem to me the height of fit and forget and both difficult to repair in the field. What's the difference?

Steve, to stop the thread derail and ask a question to yourself - are their any brands of tourers popular in over there you're also considering? Just wonder if there's some other brands/options that are not well known over here.


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## Avro (28 Oct 2012)

Hello

Have a look at Rose.de Pro Activa touring bikes and VSF bikes.
Unlike British bikes they come complete with all equipment ready to tour, also if they have XT ALL the
associated equipment is also XT NOT a cheaper mix like UK bike companies.

Cheers,
Robert


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## lulubel (3 Nov 2012)

steveindenmark said:


> My current bike is Trek lexa SL. Yes I know it is a ladys bike  Said the ex army welterweight boxing champion.
> 
> I use it for light touring and it is an excellent bike for me. It feels to be a fraction shorter than bikes I have had in the past and so I sit up more and I like that position. The reason I think I need a dedicated touring bike is that I will be pulling a trailer on our trips before long.


 
I've come a bit late to this, and I'll admit to only having skimmed some of the thread, but as an ex-Trek owner (1.2 WSD, which later became the Lexa) and a current Surly Crosscheck owner, I think I can confidently say you'd be very happy with a Crosscheck. The frame geometry is very similar to the Trek, apart from the bottom bracket being higher and the option to create longer chainstays by putting the wheel right back in the horizontal dropouts - basically, it's very easy to create the same pedals/saddle/bars relationship. The steel makes for a more forgiving ride than the aluminium of the Trek (and my Trek did have carbon forks), and it's also tough enough to handle heavier touring loads. I bought mine as an "everyday" bike that I could tour on in the future, and I couldn't be happier.


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## Alun (4 Nov 2012)

Have a look at trackstermans experiences if you want an "expedition" style bike rather than a "touring" bike

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1&doc_id=3525&v=6l


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## psmiffy (4 Nov 2012)

Bodhbh said:


> It does mystify my why say Thorn are so evangelical about the Rohloff on one hand, and so absolutely dead against hydraulic discs on another - both seem to me the height of fit and forget and both difficult to repair in the field. What's the difference?


 
I dont think thorn are against disc brakes per se - just against them on the from forks from a strength point of view - I ve never tried them - but almost every long distance tourer ive met on the road with them has when I have admired their disc brake setup replied that they wish that they had not gone for that option - spend too much time fiddling with them and getting spares mailed to them.


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## Blue Hills (5 Nov 2012)

My tupensthworth, really just passing on the expertise of someone else. I fairly recently bought a tourer from Paul Hewitt - I asked about disc brakes and was leaning towards them but he advised against them because of the apparent fork issues. I did have one or two very slight issues with some of his spec advice on the bike but have no reason to think he wasn't giving me anything but his best advice on the disc issue. I have no particular personal insights on the matter - I'm not that technical.


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## lulubel (10 Nov 2012)

psmiffy said:


> I dont think thorn are against disc brakes per se - just against them on the from forks from a strength point of view


 


Blue Hills said:


> I fairly recently bought a tourer from Paul Hewitt - I asked about disc brakes and was leaning towards them but he advised against them because of the apparent fork issues.


 
What are the fork issues? I'm asking because I'll probably be in the market for a tourer at some point, and a Surly Disc Trucker is right at the top of my list at the moment.


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## psmiffy (10 Nov 2012)

lulubel said:


> What are the fork issues? I'm asking because I'll probably be in the market for a tourer at some point, and a Surly Disc Trucker is right at the top of my list at the moment.


 
I have never seen a detailed explanation - just statements that "the forces from disc brakes are _different _from that from 'V's" - as an engineer I have difficulty coming to terms with these statements - however, unlike those who make these statements I am not a frame builder of many years experience so at present I must take it as the gospel

(it would seem it is to do with the rake of the conventional touring fork - no idea why that should be - some builders have tried to get around the issue by using straight forks - I suppose ala the old Kona sort of thing -(the argument against being - how much do you value the use of your hands after riding a bike equipped with one) others by beefing up one blade of the fork (the argument against being if you hit an obstruction the wheel is going to veer off line due to the difference in elasticity of the fork blades))


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## Crankarm (11 Nov 2012)

Well Surly use over size tubing for their solid front disc forks. Have you seen the Surly Troll front fork? It's extremely robust. The LHT fork is similar I think. I looked at the Kona solid disc fork, P2 I think, I wasn't impressed as it looked too weedy for my liking. Alternatively go for a quality sus fork with lock out which is what I have. I was going to swap it for a solid Surly Troll disc fork but have never bothered. I nearly did but the LBS in Cambridge who do Surly refused to accept cycling club discount so they lost the sale and I left it at that. I would have thought a standard road bike fork with a disc mount welded on would be rather too thin. But this is just a common sense approach rather than applying maths or mechanics to the various types of fork. I am more than happy with my susser fork on lock out which can be unlocked for really rough terrain. Also it can more than handle a low loader front rack and panniers.


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## willem (11 Nov 2012)

It really is quite simple: the braking forces are applied at the hub rather than close to the steerer. So the fork has to cope with rather more. An ordinary fork will not be strong enough for this. Make it stronger, and you have an uncomfortably stiff fork.
Willem


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## lulubel (11 Nov 2012)

Crankarm said:


> Well Surly use over size tubing for their solid front disc forks. Have you seen the Surly Troll front fork? It's extremely robust. The LHT fork is similar I think.


 
I haven't seen one in real life, but judging from the pictures I don't think I'd be concerned about the strength of the Troll fork. The Troll is also on my shortlist of touring bikes, and might actually be better than the Trucker in some respects. I've just compared the Disc Trucker and the LHT side by side, and the Disc Trucker fork might be a bit heftier, but it's hard to tell when they're in different colours and have different components on them.

I wouldn't really be concerned about anything from Surly, to be honest. They're not known for making delicate bikes. And I weigh so little that even me plus a heavy touring load would be less weight to stop than a lot of blokes!


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## Blue Hills (11 Nov 2012)

Question from lulubel above - Paul Hewitt did say it was something to do with braking forces and the strength of fork needed. I know there is the P2 fork though as referred to above.

As psmiffy says, I bowed to his expertise.

I know that Paul Hewitt has built tourers with discs for folk who asked - maybe with the P2? Maybe he did it after cautioning them.

I don't pretend to have enough expertise to really offer a comment/judgement on the issue.
(edited for typo)


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## P.H (11 Nov 2012)

willem said:


> Make it stronger, and you have an uncomfortably stiff fork.
> Willem


 
That doesn't seem to be the opinion of people who have used them. The last two round the world record holders used disks, 200 miles a day on an uncomfortable fork, I don't think so. Has anyone actually tested these things to see just how much flex is lost? I'd be surprised if it was as much as would be gained by going up a tyre size and lowering pressure 5psi.


> It really is quite simple: the braking forces are applied at the hub rather than close to the steerer. So the fork has to cope with rather more. An ordinary fork will not be strong enough for this.


The larger problem is that the force is only applied to one fork blade, it's the twisting affect that requires most of the extra strength. There are some prototype disks which operate on both sides of the wheel, the extra strength needed would be minimal.


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## Crankarm (12 Nov 2012)

Well all I can say is that I have NEVER EVER had to grapple with the handle bars on my disc forks under hard braking due to the bars trying to twist out from my grip even when they were loaded with panniers. I think there is a lot of scare mongering going on here. Basically use common sense and a robust fork and you will be fine. Using a skinny fork something like was fitted to a 1970s Peugeot racer with a disc mount attached would be asking for trouble as there would be far too much flex. IMHO the issue is not twisting by having only one disc brake on one arm of the fork but having a fork with a strong enough crown / head tube as with a disc brake it is possible to stop so much more quickly than rim brakes. It is period. So Luddites and trolls don't start another pointless argument that rim brakes are on a par with disc brakes. They are not. Disc brakes are far more powerful. Period.


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## rich p (12 Nov 2012)

Recycle said:


> I have done many miles on my Dawes ultra galaxy and I'm generally happy with it. The components are robust and the bike has never let me down. One caveat. If you stand on the pedals when the bike is under a heavy touring load there is noticeable frame flex. I have never toured with front panniers so I don't know if a more balanced load will resolve the problem.


 It does still flex with front panniers and is disconcerting for about 15 minutes at the start of each tour! After that I never think about it again and I'd happily agree that the Dawes UG has never let me down either over thousands of loaded miles.


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## pinnacleadventure (16 Nov 2012)

I've got a Hewitt too, done lots of miles, would probably choose straight bars, but that's just personal - no complaints about the bike!


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## samid (16 Nov 2012)

Crankarm said:


> IMHO the issue is not twisting by having only one disc brake on one arm of the fork but having a fork with a strong enough crown / head tube as with a disc brake it is possible to stop so much more quickly than rim brakes. It is period. So Luddites and trolls don't start another pointless argument that rim brakes are on a par with disc brakes. They are not. Disc brakes are far more powerful. Period.


I can easily lift the rear wheel of my Riv with double pivot Shimano front rim brake - you cannot stop faster than that regardless of the brake type. So I don't see how a disc brake would require stronger crown/head tube, at least not for the reason you suggested.
(I also think disc brakes look ugly on a traditional road bike but that's beside the point.)


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## Yellow7 (17 Nov 2012)

Crankarm said:


> . They are not. Disc brakes are far more powerful. Period.


??? I thought the initial post subject was concerning TOURING bikes??? Having travelled various types of roads & routes I’ve never found a situation, or the desire for the braking power requirement to stop-on-a-penny, unless you're riding like Danny MacAskill that is. So to maintain the trend of thread diversion check Danny MacAskill here, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj6ho1-G6tw Woops, nearly forgot: “Period”

Mark.


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## Pottsy (17 Nov 2012)

Surly LHT here. Tektro CR720 cantis with decent pads. Absolutely enough stopping power fully loaded.

If people want disc brakes, fine. Can't say that there's a performance reason for them though. I like to keep stuff simple so this works for me.


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## lulubel (17 Nov 2012)

Pottsy said:


> Surly LHT here. Tektro CR720 cantis with decent pads. Absolutely enough stopping power fully loaded.
> 
> If people want disc brakes, fine. Can't say that there's a performance reason for them though. I like to keep stuff simple so this works for me.


 
I've got CR720s on my Crosscheck, and they do a perfectly good job, and I can see how they would continue to do a good job with a touring load. If I got caught out in torrential rain like my partner did today, however, I wouldn't much fancy descending a steep hill with them (or any other rim brakes) on a fully loaded tourer. Even on my old MTB, I had the levers pulled tight against the bars before it stopped in heavy rain, and I can remember one terrifying incident on my old road bike when I crossed the A30 at 20mph because I couldn't stop in the wet.

I always thought it was just one of those things, that bike brakes don't work very well in the wet, and you just have to deal with it. That was until I got a MTB with disc brakes. Now, having tried them, I wouldn't want to be without them if I was carrying a load and couldn't be sure of the conditions.

And that's just my personal opinion, based on my own experience.


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## clarion (17 Nov 2012)

The Singular Peregrine has a disc on a curved front fork, as does the Surly Disc Trucker. I've seen similar from Hollowed Velo and Bob Jackson (though they were keen to dissuade anyone from having it)

Disc brakes on front forks for touring are commonplace now. Personally, I like the Genesis Day One range, and Croix de Fer. I know they're meant as soft CX-ers, but I've long been an advocate of such frames for all but the harshest of expedition conditions.


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## P.H (19 Nov 2012)

clarion said:


> The Singular Peregrine has a disc on a curved front fork, as does the Surly Disc Trucker. I've seen similar from Hollowed Velo and Bob Jackson (though they were keen to dissuade anyone from having it)


I'm not sure there's much of a relationship between shape and strength, maybe if all other things were equal, but they're not. Surly and Singular use heavier tubing than in the rim brake equivalents and Reynolds don't make a fork blade they consider compatible with disks. The twisting force of a single brake at the end on one fork/lever is well documented. As are the instances of wheels forcing their way out of the dropouts in extreme circumstances. That's why we're seeing through axles, forward facing dropouts and other ways to counteract it. 
I'm not against disks, I haven't yet used one, I am against the notion that you can have something for nothing. A stronger brake, placed at the end of a single fork will require that fork to be stronger than one for a brake applying less force to both sides at the crown, that isn't a matter of opinion Whether that matters to an individual, or in which direction the pros outweigh the cons, is nothing but opinion.


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## daytonatwin (20 Nov 2012)

I decided to try a front wheel disc brake system when I built a set of stronger wheels for my Dawes Sardar, which is disc compatable front and rear, well I can say without doubt that the disc on the front is much stronger and can easily lock the front wheel if desired. The pads are lasting quite well. I have just returned with this set up riding from the UK to France, Spain and Portugal with a lot of hills and mountains in Spain and Porugal, plenty of down hill braking as you would expect the front disc brake worked very well, and therefore I can recommend discs for touring bikes. Reliable, good in the wet and they seem to wear much better than rim brakes, plus no squealing just a slight scraping sound.
I used the cable operated Avid BB7 disc brake on the front, but I might consider changing to a hydraulic system, as I think they might be more controllable and progressive, especially when moving at a slower pace.


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