# E Bikes-abuse and rhetoric posted about ebikes and their riders



## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

They are not just aimed at beginner, unexperiened, non cyclists. They are ridden by professional, ex professional, cyclists, mtbers all over the world....people need to stop this fascination that they are only ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders.

Its getting boring people, move on....they are the future whether you like it or not and are here to stay.


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## T4tomo (12 Jun 2019)

Ahh because some people disagree with you they are wrong?


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## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

T4tomo said:


> Ahh because some people disagree with you they are wrong?


No its just lies.......simple fact


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## Heltor Chasca (12 Jun 2019)

You have a point and as electric bike sales in the NL are 53% I’m sure you are correct. I’m led to believe the Dutch know their cycling onions. Could be wrong.

BUT I genuinely would love it when electric vehicles are affordable and the norm. 

First dibs on a small/medium van that I can use for work. My diesel pickup has me over a barrel.


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## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> You have a point and as electric bike sales in the NL are 53% I’m sure you are correct. I’m led to believe the Dutch know their cycling onions. Could be wrong.
> 
> BUT I genuinely would love it when electric vehicles are affordable and the norm.
> 
> First dibs on a small/medium van that I can use for work. My diesel pickup has me over a barrel.


I too would love an electric car......but for now, for me, its not a viable option


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (12 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> They are not just aimed at beginner, unexperiened, non cyclists. They are ridden by professional, ex professional, cyclists, mtbers all over the world....people need to stop this fascination that they are only ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders.
> 
> Its getting boring people, move on....they are the future whether you like it or not and are here to stay.



Is this to be another thread where anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? I get that you're passionate about e-bikes but comments like "its [sic] getting boring people, move on" will just wind people up like it did in the other thread. That got so bad the Mods had to lock it to clean it up.

Your post isn't trying to start a discussion, it's just a moan and I don't understand what you're trying to achieve by posting it.


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## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

ABikeCam said:


> Is this to be another thread where anyone who disagrees with you is wrong? I get that you're passionate about e-bikes but comments like "its [sic] getting boring people, move on" will just wind people up like it did in the other thread. That got so bad the Mods had to lock it to clean it up.
> 
> Your post isn't trying to start a discussion, it's just a moan and I don't understand what you're trying to achieve by posting it.


Theres 1000s of posts on here were people just have a moan or rant. Do you say the same to them??? Is this just going to be another post were people disagree with me, makes me wrong??? It works both ways......

If people dont like ebikes i would prefer they just come out and say it. Then your a sound footing to base your argument/debate....if you just make up lies, then for me, they are just wasting mine and your time.


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## Cycleops (12 Jun 2019)

Well that's told 'em hasn't it?


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## Sharky (12 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> They are not just aimed at beginner, unexperiened, non cyclists. They are ridden by professional, ex professional, cyclists, mtbers all over the world....people need to stop this fascination that they are only ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders.
> 
> Its getting boring people, move on....they are the future whether you like it or not and are here to stay.



The confusion is because E bikes have yet to find their niche in the world. It's not that long ago (maybe for some), that mopeds were in a similar position, appealing to cyclists and motorists. In fact Cycling Weekly in those days was called "Cycling and Mopeds". As mopeds advanced, they diverged from bikes and the distinction was clear and separate.


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## Biff600 (12 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Its getting boring .



I agree !!


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## matiz (12 Jun 2019)

The question isn't who's right.You're simply seeing things from different points of view.


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## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

matiz said:


> The question isn't who's right.You're simply seeing things from different points of view.


?????


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## Levo-Lon (12 Jun 2019)

The problem with E-bikes and E - cars is the cost..

Now i have an mtb ebike and commute on it, i sometimes mtb on it.
A good e mtb will set you back 3-7k but so will a good mtb with no motor. But a 3k normal bike will be well specked and the emtb will be cheap parts only.
I still prefer my normal bikes.

I'd love a e-car but its not going to happen as there's no infrastructure..

I dont know why anti ebike posters reply.
They obviously havent had a day out on one.
There fekin brilliant if you need some help up hills and dont have 50 mile ride fitness.

They are the future and in 10 yrs they will be everywhere as we push for a greener future.

Embrace it, its not a fad


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## biggs682 (12 Jun 2019)

I can see the appeal for a lot of people but just not for me yet


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## Mo1959 (12 Jun 2019)

biggs682 said:


> I can see the appeal for a lot of people but just not for me yet


No, I'll try and put it off as long as possible! I'm always amazed by the riders that look younger and fitter than me using them, but I suppose they could have hidden health problems.............other than lazyness. Lol.


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2019)

meta lon said:


> I'd love a e-car but its not going to happen as there's no infrastructure..


Depending on what you are trying to do I'm not sure that is true, I see no issue commuting a reasonable distance, but a long journey is likely to be out if there is a specific time frame. The reason I haven't jumped is price, I have a small Volvo diesel 8 years old only done 37K, cost £4000 if I wanted an electric car I'd have to find another £20k+ I do not have that kind of money & if I did I would have better things to spend it on than a car.


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## Pale Rider (12 Jun 2019)

Mo1959 said:


> No, I'll try and put it off as long as possible! I'm always amazed by the riders that look younger and fitter than me using them, but I suppose they could have hidden health problems.............other than lazyness. Lol.



Many people still seem to think an ebike is a two wheeled invalid carriage, for an old person, or for a feckless individual who is too idle to pedal.

There are such ebike riders, but the majority are ordinary folk like you who simply like getting around on two wheels.

Several posters on here have said they will get an ebike when they are 'old enough'.

This betrays ignorance, ebikes are heavy lumps, an elderly person might struggle to manhandle and balance one.


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Jun 2019)

I haven't seen much anti ebike sentiment on CC at all, overall it seems a great many are supportive of them even if they aren't currently, or likely to be, users themselves.
You seem to be misinterpreting disagreement on the other topic of raising the cut off speed as somehow being against ebikes in general. It's not.


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## Crackle (12 Jun 2019)

It seems to me e-bikes are going to appeal to a different demographic, there may be some overlap but on forums like this, there's probably always going to be some resistance to the idea of using one because we're looking at things in a different way.

If they get more cars off the road, get people out exercising in some form, that's a good thing. I already have friends who've purchased e-bikes as well as their own 'normal' bikes. I see more people on them and their usage seems to vary, from older folk using them to keep active, to people commuting on them and people who seem to be using them as utility transport. I've seen people towing trailers with them and people just riding, they seem like a genuinely good idea to me and the design has come on in leaps and bounds. The shop by me used to sell basic sit up and beg Giants, now they're selling sophisticated looking mtn bikes with Bosch motors.


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## Cycleops (12 Jun 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> Many people still seem to think an ebike is a two wheeled invalid carriage, for an old person, or for a feckless individual who is too idle to pedal.
> 
> There are such ebike riders, but the majority are ordinary folk like you who simply like getting around on two wheels.
> 
> ...


I don't think it betrays ignorance, people on here and elsewhere are aware of the difficulties of handling a bike that weighs rather more than a regular cycle. Who do you class as elderly? I'm nearly seventy and I'm sure I could manage one. If posters are saying they will get one when ' old enough' I assume that to mean they derive pleasure from riding a regular bike and will only transfer to an e-bike until such time as they are forced to to stay on two wheels.


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## Rocky (12 Jun 2019)

I enjoy riding my ordinary bikes and long may that last. I won’t be considering any alternative for the foreseeable future.


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## Pale Rider (12 Jun 2019)

Cycleops said:


> I don't think it betrays ignorance, people on here and elsewhere are aware of the difficulties of handling a bike that weighs rather more than a regular cycle. Who do you class as elderly? I'm nearly seventy and I'm sure I could manage one. If posters are saying they will get one when ' old enough' I assume that to mean they derive pleasure from riding a regular bike and will only transfer to an e-bike until such time as they are forced to to stay on two wheels.



Many commenting on these threads have never ridden an ebike or done so only briefly.

There is widespread ignorance of the capabilities of ebikes and the practicalities of living with one.

I am only aware of these matters because I have done about 3,000 ebike miles a year for the last eight years.


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## roadrash (12 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> people need to stop this fascination that they are only ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders.



when you say people need to stop....are you referring to posters on cyclechat or people you meet generally

I have not seen a single post where anyone has said ebikes are ONLY ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders, I have seen posts in the other thread (you know the one) where someone says it would be a bad idea for an unexperienced rider/idiot to have that speed on tap without learning bike handling skills first. theres a big difference between the two statements.


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## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

roadrash said:


> when you say people need to stop....are you referring to posters on cyclechat or people you meet generally
> 
> I have not seen a single post where anyone has said ebikes are ONLY ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders, I have seen posts in the other thread (you know the one) where someone says it would be a bad idea for an unexperienced rider/idiot to have that speed on tap without learning bike handling skills first. theres a big difference between the two statements.


Both.....especially on the other thread and in life as a general take on it.

And dont get me started on bike handling skills........


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## CXRAndy (12 Jun 2019)

Ive just placed my order for 750W(peak power) centre drive with 52V battery. It will be fully customisable in setting max current or power and top speed. I will give a max assist speed 19mph. The benefit custom firmware is tailoring battery performance over longer rides. Im not interested in max-ing power output and speed


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## gbb (12 Jun 2019)

As an increasing user of my ebike (reluctantly i concede i have to, arthritis is getting the better of me and a ride on my roadie the other week left my hips in ...not agony, but in real pain, for 2 days). But think about this.....
I was out on my ebike last weekend and just minding my own business and a lady on a roadbike passed me on the flat. No biggie, she's doing well, i carried on at my pace, she rode onward.
Then we came to a hill. I passed her with ease as she neared the top, red faced and puffing as you would when you're working hard, respect due.
I felt bad as i eased past , genuinely, because i remember how i prided my fitness, how the slightly competetive element in me would push myself in some unseen, unwitting combat with another rider, who was probably doing the same to me.

She might not have given a monkeys....but you know that competetive element is strong in plenty of people and they're possibly the ones who dare i say 'resent' ebikes on the grounds they've worked frikkin hard to get where they are fitness wise. Its not logical but is it human nature ?

Just a rambling thought.


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## Sharky (12 Jun 2019)

Surly Bruce said:


> I enjoy riding my ordinary bikes and long may that last. I won’t be considering any alternative for the foreseeable future.


Do you mean a Penny Farthing? Always wanted to try one if those.


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## Pale Rider (12 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Ive just placed my order for 750W(peak power) centre drive with 52V battery. It will be fully customisable in setting max current or power and top speed. I will give a max assist speed 19mph. The benefit custom firmware is tailoring battery performance over longer rides. Im not interested in max-ing power output and speed



That's quite a beast of a motor, or could be depending on settings.

You mention longer rides, are you sure that motor/battery combination is best suited to the job?

I reckon 250w/36v would be plenty, and would have the benefit of being nominally road legal, give or take a few mph on the cut off speed.


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## Venod (12 Jun 2019)

gbb said:


> but you know that competetive element is strong in plenty of people and they're possibly the ones who dare i say 'resent' ebikes on the grounds they've worked frikkin hard to get where they are fitness wise. Its not logical but is it human nature ?



I have had this thought too, but then I thought surely not, if someone passes you on an ebike its because they are on an ebike and nothing to do with fitness, but as they say, theres nowt so queer as folk.

I was going up a hill on the CX putting in (for me) quite a bit of effort and a bloke came breezing past on an e MTB, at first I didn't see the motor and thought my fitness needs some work, when I realised it was an ebike I thought good on you mate if its getting you out, I would have liked a go but he was out of site in no time.


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## Mo1959 (12 Jun 2019)

gbb said:


> As an increasing user of my ebike (reluctantly i concede i have to, arthritis is getting the better of me and a ride on my roadie the other week left my hips in ...not agony, but in real pain, for 2 days). But think about this.....
> I was out on my ebike last weekend and just minding my own business and a lady on a roadbike passed me on the flat. No biggie, she's doing well, i carried on at my pace, she rode onward.
> Then we came to a hill. I passed her with ease as she neared the top, red faced and puffing as you would when you're working hard, respect due.
> I felt bad as i eased past , genuinely, because i remember how i prided my fitness, how the slightly competetive element in me would push myself in some unseen, unwitting combat with another rider, who was probably doing the same to me.
> ...


I know what you mean. I was overtaken by a group at the start of a pull up, and the lady actually said “It’s ok, we are cheating!” so she obviously felt a pang of guilt.


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2019)

I pulled out of a junction on Sunday morning, as I turned up the road I saw a Roadie 100 yards in front of me, I was on the MTB & over the next 1/4 mile I closed the gap to less than 30 yards, but at that point he started to move away from me, he hadn't looked round but I was spent, when we got to the top of the hill he stopped & rested on the bench commenting as I passed he was 'knackered', as I rode on I wondered if he'd cheated being on a road bike.


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## CXRAndy (12 Jun 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> That's quite a beast of a motor, or could be depending on settings.
> 
> You mention longer rides, are you sure that motor/battery combination is best suited to the job?
> 
> I reckon 250w/36v would be plenty, and would have the benefit of being nominally road legal, give or take a few mph on the cut off speed.



My understanding, its rated @ 500W 48V motor. Ive speccd a 35AH battery. The controller could if setup allow peak power upto 750W. These are headline numbers and to be taken with a pinch of salt. I will play with current settings and power to achieve a smooth acceleration without overheating the motor. I will fit a temperature sensor to the motor body to limit current and shut off motor if it gets too hot. If Ive read the settings correct I can taper power depending on cadence and torque being applied by the user. This is a torque sensing motor and requires the rider to apply effort to some degree to get the motor to assist


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

Having spent the last few years being passed by everyone, on the flat as well as hills, I must admit a certain evil satisfaction when pulling out and passing other cyclists as they struggle up the hill. I don't do it often now, and certainly not with the group I ride with. I know there are still some who accuse me of 'cheating', even though there are health reasons for my riding my Gain, and I don't want to reinforce their prejudices.


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## CXRAndy (12 Jun 2019)

In Tenerife this year, we were out for a ride. This old fella on his shopper carrying a large bag of compost sailed by on a 1.5 mile climb at 6% average. Over the course of 6 miles we eventually caught him due to downhills and flats. There is no way this old fella could of cycled up that hill on a conventional non assisted bike. These ebikes have many benefits


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## Crackle (12 Jun 2019)

I'll wait until they totally look like a normal bike, then find the steepest hill and breeze up to someone with their arse hanging out and hold a conversation with them.

"Lovely day eh. Love being out on the bike, can't beat it. Anyway gotta go, need to work up a sweat, have fun."


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

You have to look pretty close …


Crackle said:


> I'll wait until they totally look like a normal bike, then find the steepest hill and breeze up to someone with their arse hanging out and hold a conversation with them.
> 
> "Lovely day eh. Love being out on the bike, can't beat it. Anyway gotta go, need to work up a sweat, have fun."


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## Crackle (12 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> View attachment 470439
> 
> 
> You have to look pretty close …


you definitely do, not much to give that away if it breezed past you on the road.


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> you definitely do, not much to give that away if it breezed past you on the road.


Just the IWOC light on the top tube near the stem, a small charging point down near the bottom bracket, and a rather large EBM motor rear hub, more or less hidden by the cassette on one side and the brake disc on the other. All the cables hidden too.


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## Cycleops (12 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> View attachment 470439
> 
> 
> You have to look pretty close …


Bianchi ought to be ashamed of themselves


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

Cycleops said:


> Bianchi ought to be ashamed of themselves


- and Pinarello, Colnago, Willier …….


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## Levo-Lon (12 Jun 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> Many commenting on these threads have never ridden an ebike or done so only briefly.
> 
> There is widespread ignorance of the capabilities of ebikes and the practicalities of living with one.
> 
> I am only aware of these matters because I have done about 3,000 ebike miles a year for the last eight years.




Only issue i have with mine is xc rides.
Where climbing over obstacles is required, my ebike is about 20kg so can be a handful and im physically fit, as for weight when riding its often a plus as it feels planted and sure footed.
Light bikes are skittish, so swings and roundabouts..


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## Pale Rider (12 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> My understanding, its rated @ 500W 48V motor. Ive speccd a 35AH battery. The controller could if setup allow peak power upto 750W. These are headline numbers and to be taken with a pinch of salt. I will play with current settings and power to achieve a smooth acceleration without overheating the motor. I will fit a temperature sensor to the motor body to limit current and shut off motor if it gets too hot. If Ive read the settings correct I can taper power depending on cadence and torque being applied by the user. This is a torque sensing motor and requires the rider to apply effort to some degree to get the motor to assist



Assuming it's the Bafang crank motor, they come in four (nominal) sizes: 250w, 350w. 500w, and 750w.

I thought you were getting a 750w which did not sound ideal for the job.

A 500w running not very aggressively makes a lot more sense.

Nothing is for nothing so it will use a fair bit of juice.

The 35ah battery ought to be good for 100 miles.


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## Heltor Chasca (12 Jun 2019)

I have a Surly Big Dummy which is a long tail cargo bike.

I pass people fairly often on the shared paths, sometimes with my daughter on the back. On numerous occasions people have said things like, ‘Oi you’re cheating on that e-bike!’. 

Little do they know it’s just a bog standard Shimano Deore set up with a triple. But it’s hard work justifying my superior cycling ability so I just keep it to myself


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## jowwy (12 Jun 2019)

I’m lucky enough to own two ebikes and so does my ex semi pro rider work colleague.....I have one set-up with di2, rack and bag, 2.25 slick MTB Tyres and I have the other set-up for purely weekend jaunts around my local road, cycle path and canal network. It’s thoroughly enjoyable riding them and it takes the pain away from my knees when climbing the 1500ft home from the canal network to were I live......before having the E bike I would either had to have parked the car up in the canal car park and just do flat rides, but now the car is parked at home (unused) and I can do the full loop of 37miles and 1509ft climb home with zero pain and full unfettered freedom of the motor vehicle

Win win in my eyes.........


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## Dogtrousers (12 Jun 2019)

I was on a group ride recently and I wasn't feeling too good. One of the riders was on an e-bike and he set a perfect pace for me to draft behind. My own personal Derny. They get my vote just for that!


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## winjim (12 Jun 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I have a Surly Big Dummy which is a long tail cargo bike.
> 
> I pass people fairly often on the shared paths, sometimes with my daughter on the back. On numerous occasions people have said things like, ‘Oi you’re cheating on that e-bike!’.
> 
> Little do they know it’s just a bog standard Shimano Deore set up with a triple. But it’s hard work justifying my superior cycling ability so I just keep it to myself


You'll have seen the Big Easy...


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2019)

winjim said:


> You'll have seen the Big Easy...


It is big but it doesn't look easy to me


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## Pale Rider (12 Jun 2019)

Riese and Muller are active in the ecargobike market.

They make a long tail one like the Surly, and Dutch style cargo bikes with a forward mounted luggage tray/child seat.

https://www.r-m.de/en-gb/


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## Dogtrousers (12 Jun 2019)

I was in Antwerp a few months ago and the streets seemed to be full of gigantic cargo ebikes.

Ok I saw three. Or maybe two. But they were really big ones.


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## Heltor Chasca (12 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> It is big but it doesn't look easy to me



Seriously impressive geometry. It handles like a dream and feels hardly any different to a MTB. Obviously it can’t turn on a dime but at 2 metres long it is staggeringly dexterous. How far are you from Somerset? Welcome to give a go.


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## Andy in Germany (12 Jun 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> Riese and Muller are active in the ecargobike market.
> 
> They make a long tail one like the Surly, and Dutch style cargo bikes with a forward mounted luggage tray/child seat.
> 
> https://www.r-m.de/en-gb/



Looking nice.

I still prefer my very simple Bakfiets though: one reason it still works so well after a decade of use is that it's a simple as possible with no suspension or hydraulics, and no motor to break down or battery to suddenly stop holding a charge.

It's pretty heavy though, so I don't manage to overtake anyone...


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## Andy in Germany (12 Jun 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Seriously impressive geometry. It handles like a dream and feels hardly any different to a MTB. Obviously it can’t turn on a dime but at 2 metres long it is staggeringly dexterous. How far are you from Somerset? Welcome to give a go.



I second that, although mine is a rebuild of an old Raleigh. I keep getting asked if it's an E-bike these days too...


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## CXRAndy (12 Jun 2019)

We have an old rider 80yr+ in our village. He was out several times a week doing upto 70-80milers. A few years ago he suffered a stroke. Struggling with fitness and pace he has just got an Orbea ebike- very nice. He's backup to 65 milers now at a decent 15 mph


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## HobbesOnTour (12 Jun 2019)

Here in NL there are many variations of cargobikes/bakfietsen, some electric, many not. Depending on my shift pattern, I'll regularly draw up behind a woman with 3 kids in her bakfiets, winter & summer. It's electric but I'll catch up with her and there's not a lot of space to overtake. No problem for me - I think it's great to see that.
DHL have just added a very substantial E-bike to their local courier fleet. Pretty impressive. 

On the other hand, the sheer number of (silent) food couriers flying around the city centre is a real nuisance, partly because the bikes are ridden by kids who are in a hurry, partly because they are moving faster than just about any other bike in the centre. Their only redeeming feature are the (very) bright lights they are kitted out with.

Last year I hosted a German chap through Warmshowers and he was telling me about how in his city they (a kind of bike co-op) have bought 2 different types of cargo bike that are available to hire out for what I thought was a very good price. If I remember correctly, the larger of the 2 was electric. I thought it was a fabulous idea. 

I've met a couple who stopped touring when their kids were small, but were busy planning a long tour again with the kids able to match the adult distances by using e-bikes. Again, a great idea.

And I'll never forget an older German couple I met on Lake Konstanz in freezing drizzle (the day after temps in the mid 20s). They had rented Ebikes and had been looking forward to their little tour for 6 months. They never would have attempted it without the comfort of an E-motor. They were totally ill-equipped for the weather but the sheer joy they transmitted was a real pleasure to witness. I'd hate to deny anyone that joy.

There are a lot of uses for Ebikes, some more civic friendly than others. I think there's a real danger that if the unfriendly aspects are not controlled the only option will be very stringent controls.


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## Phaeton (12 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> He's backup to 65 milers now at a decent 15 mph


The magic 15, there really must be something special about it, my average is 10mph fir which I am very happy


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## ozboz (12 Jun 2019)

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B3at3h-yebc&time_continue=109


Just seen this , I looked it up after seeing a post on this thread earlier ,
I like Surly bikes , I like this , but they are $5000 in USA
But ideal for me for work ,


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## winjim (12 Jun 2019)

ozboz said:


> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B3at3h-yebc&time_continue=109
> 
> 
> Just seen this , I looked it up after seeing a post on this thread earlier ,
> ...



One problem with it. With all that frame space, you'd think they could find somewhere better to put the battery. Otherwise yeah, it's nails.


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## ozboz (12 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> We have an old rider 80yr+ in our village. He was out several times a week doing upto 70-80milers. A few years ago he suffered a stroke. Struggling with fitness and pace he has just got an Orbea ebike- very nice. He's backup to 65 milers now at a decent 15 mph



That is a big positive in any ones book , I doff my Cap !


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> We have an old rider 80yr+ in our village. He was out several times a week doing upto 70-80milers. A few years ago he suffered a stroke. Struggling with fitness and pace he has just got an Orbea ebike- very nice. He's backup to 65 milers now at a decent 15 mph


That's great , but sorry to be pedantic, shouldn't that be '_up to_ a decent 15mph'


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## Slick (13 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> They are not just aimed at beginner, unexperiened, non cyclists. They are ridden by professional, ex professional, cyclists, mtbers all over the world....people need to stop this fascination that they are only ridden by idiots and unexperienced riders.
> 
> Its getting boring people, move on....they are the future whether you like it or not and are here to stay.


I'm not entirely sure anyone really disagrees with any of that. I've posted a few times now that I think they are amazing and will have no hesitation in getting one when the time is right.


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## MiK1138 (13 Jun 2019)

I'm all for them, don't feel the need for one yet but will defo be my Retirement Pressie to myself when the time comes


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## Zanelad (13 Jun 2019)

I ride an ebike. I don't care, and I wonder why anyone would care, about what others think about them. Ride the bike that you want to. I tnink that they're fun to ride, get me to work without sweating and you still get a decent amount of exercise especially if you ride over 16mph.

The first decent hill I rode up was worth the cost of the bike alone. A "proper" (read non assisted ) cyclist overtook me about half a mile before the hill. I reeled him in on the hill, and the double take he made as he looked over his shoulder and saw me a couple of feet from his back wheel made me chuckle for the next few miles. I was thinking about overtaking him, but that seemed rude. 

Ride and let ride.


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## Gary E (13 Jun 2019)

I seriously considered this one when I bought my last bike 
There have been days when I’ve regretted not buying it.


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## Profpointy (13 Jun 2019)

Whilst I rarely support banning things nor too much regulations around things, I'm a bit uneasy about an essentially unregulated (no licence, no insurance, etc) small motorcycle that is significantly quicker than the vast majority of pedal cycles. Maybe it is OK, as per traditional european mopeds, but still ... 

If it does get the OK there really is no justification for the mode of power (Petrol vs leci) to have any bearing on the driving test or insurance question for a similarly powered (ie amount of power) vehicle, even if the leci version pays less tax.


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## MiK1138 (13 Jun 2019)

Slick said:


> It probably means they just haven't tried one yet then. The "ebike smile" was how it was explained to me. It didn't take me long to understand why.


The E bike Smile is defo a thing I remember the first time I tried one I just couldn't believe how good it felt, had a shot of an E Cargo bike a couple of weeks ago WOW


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## jowwy (13 Jun 2019)

Profpointy said:


> Whilst I rarely support banning things nor too much regulations around things, I'm a bit uneasy about an essentially unregulated (no licence, no insurance, etc) small motorcycle that is significantly quicker than the vast majority of pedal cycles. Maybe it is OK, as per traditional european mopeds, but still ...
> 
> If it does get the OK there really is no justification for the mode of power (Petrol vs leci) to have any bearing on the driving test or insurance question for a similarly powered (ie amount of power) vehicle, even if the leci version pays less tax.


It’s not a motorcycle and it’s not significantly quicker than a vast majority of pedal cycles


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## johnnyb47 (13 Jun 2019)

I'm not judgmental to Ebikes or the riders of them. My dad has one and uses it regularly. With a replacement hip and arthritis it's a god send for him to keep on cycling as its now impossible for him to cycle on a conventional bike. It means we can still enjoy cycling together which means a lot, to both of us. As for Ebikes being for the so called lazy person, "so what" Its their life and their decision as to what they want or do in life. I would rather see an Ebike on the road to a car any day, and for whatever the reasons the cyclists choose to ride them its there business.
There's an old guy i sometimes cycle with. He's been cycling since i was barely a twinkle in my dads eye and is a very respected veteran of competitive cycling in my area. Age has caught up with him now and his mind is young but his body says no. His road Ebike keeps him going with us relatively younger guy's on good run outs and is a joy to see him enjoying it. He's well in his 80s bless him.
What would he do without his Ebike 
Waste away physically and mentally no doubt. 
We are all lucky to be in a time of technology where we will have the chance to continue to cycle when our bodies start to struggle with conventional bikes.
Judging anybody or Ebikes is not for me. I don't care whether they are lazy or fat, old or young. That goes for conventional cyclists either.
To me, seeing another cyclist is just another person enjoying the freedom it offers and one less car hogging the roads


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## Profpointy (13 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> It’s not a motorcycle and it’s not significantly quicker than a vast majority of pedal cycles



It is a cycle and it has a motor
QEFD


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## jowwy (13 Jun 2019)

Profpointy said:


> It is a cycle and it has a motor
> QEFD


Nope - it’s defiantly called an E Bike...not a motorbike, not a moped, not a scooter......it’s legally named and quite aptly named an E bike

A motorcycle used a combustion engine, an e bike uses an electric motor and also needs to be pedalled in order for it to be used legally in the UK


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jun 2019)

If it exceeds 250W power or is not limited to assist to 15.5mph then it is no longer an e bike and becomes a motorbike. The fact a motor is electric doesn't change that.


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## Mugshot (13 Jun 2019)

What is the topic if it isn't supposed to be a discussion about Ebikes? If you just wanted people to agree with your OP why start a thread, why not just put it as a profile update or ask mod to lock this as soon as you'd made it?


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## jowwy (13 Jun 2019)

Mugshot said:


> What is the topic if it isn't supposed to be a discussion about Ebikes? If you just wanted people to agree with your OP why start a thread, why not just put it as a profile update or ask mod to lock this as soon as you'd made it?


There is already a thread about speed, power......

This is a thread about the abuse and rhetoric posted about ebikes and their riders.....


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## lazybloke (13 Jun 2019)

I followed your survey thread about increasing the limits, even before it got locked and tidied, and what you called 'anti e-bike' people on there were actually very supportive of e-bikes. They just disagreed with you about speed limits, or more specifically about the speed differentials between e-bikes and slower users such as other bikes and pedestrians, eg on shared paths.
And yes, I do know that unpowered bikes can go faster than 15mph. they are also a problem when used at inappropriate speeds in inappropriate places.

For a powered vehicle (e-bike) to be unlicensed, untaxed and uninsured, and still be permitted to mix with pedestrians and slower bikes, there has to be a sensible limit to its speed. If someone disagrees with you about that limit, it does not automatically mean the person is anti e-bike.

The occasional negative post does not equate to anti e-bike rhetoric being 'rife'.


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## Mugshot (13 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> This is a thread about the abuse and rhetoric posted about ebikes and their riders.....


That's what I thought, I wasn't clear in my post I'm sorry. It's not much of a discussion if you want posts from people that aren't on the same page as you moderated though.


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## jowwy (13 Jun 2019)

Mugshot said:


> That's what I thought, I wasn't clear in my post I'm sorry. It's not much of a discussion if you want posts from people that aren't on the same page as you moderated though.


My comments get moderated if people believe I am being uncivil.....so I should have the same right as those, if I feel they are being anti ebike or spreading bile and rhetoric


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## Mugshot (13 Jun 2019)

I think you're going to get some abuse whatever the subject matter may be, Ebikes would certainly not be excluded from that. I see far far more gentle ribbing than out and out disdain though, it's mostly rather tongue in cheek. And if you enjoy it, sod 'em, give them a wave and a cheery hello as you cruise up the hill.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jun 2019)

Being adults it's good that we don't sit in our own personal echo chambers only hearing what we want to hear. Having your viewpoint challenged is good for you.


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## Phaeton (14 Jun 2019)

@jowwy Please take this in the way it was intended, you come over as a somewhat e-bike zealot, I think you will find that some of the comments are being deliberately obtuse to wind you up. I tried to engage with you over the increase in speed, but you weren't having any of it, you're responses were aggressive & very much I am right you are wrong, so much so I walked away from the thread, you seemed to have forgotten I have asked you how good the Cube's are in the past as I was considering buying one. It is only the cost which has put me off.

I think if you go back over the e-bike threads you will find that it is only you that has brought out this reaction in other members, I know you won't like it but I do think you have to consider this is a reaction to the way you post, if you reigned it in slightly so would the naysayers.

Edit:- I know this is a bit personal so please feel free to report, I'm justtrying to help.


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## Heltor Chasca (14 Jun 2019)

I see the benefit and actually think e-bikes are great...


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## Andy in Germany (14 Jun 2019)

Profpointy said:


> Whilst I rarely support banning things nor too much regulations around things, I'm a bit uneasy about an essentially unregulated (no licence, no insurance, etc) small motorcycle that is significantly quicker than the vast majority of pedal cycles. *Maybe it is OK, as per traditional european mopeds, but still ... *
> 
> If it does get the OK there really is no justification for the mode of power (Petrol vs leci) to have any bearing on the driving test or insurance question for a similarly powered (ie amount of power) vehicle, even if the leci version pays less tax.



Can't speak for other European nations but here you need a car or "mofa" licence, and you have to buy a new licence plate every year: the fee for this covers insurance and registration.

An Ebike capable of more than 29km/h (18mph) is officially a Mofa and you need an annual licence plate for it.


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## Gary E (14 Jun 2019)

Seriously, I haven't seen any anti-eBike comments on here. I've seen comments against speed/assist increases and negative comments about individuals on eBikes acting irresponsibly but not heard anyone call for them to be abolished. 

eBikes undoubtedly have their place in the hobby and fill several niches - assisting people who couldn't otherwise manage to ride due to age, injury or disability. Allowing people who could manage a 40 mile ride to do a 60 mile ride. Allowing riders of different abilities to ride together. Allowing commuters to get to work in a state fit to work rather than as a sweaty mess. For those who want to get out and see the scenery but aren't necessarily bothered about the cycling/exercise bit. For nerds (like me) who just love a gadget. To enable people to chose to ride rather than use a car. I could go on but you get the point - anything that makes our hobby more inclusive has to be a good thing right?

Maybe we should have a poll solely asking if eBikes (not their riders, their misuse, the price or whether they think they need regulating/licencing etc.) are a good thing or a bad thing? I bet the vast majority of people, if they stuck solely to these criteria, would struggle to find many negative points?


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## Mugshot (14 Jun 2019)

Gary E said:


> Maybe we should have a poll solely asking if eBikes (not their riders, their misuse, the price or whether they think they need regulating/licencing etc.) are a good thing or a bad thing? I bet the vast majority of people, if they stuck solely to these criteria, would struggle to find many negative points?



Do you mean like this one, started by Jowwy?

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/e-bikes.239642/



jowwy said:


> So it looks the good people of CC are majorly in favour of the ebike..........





jowwy said:


> so a huge yes to ebikes............nice one cc'ers


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## youngoldbloke (14 Jun 2019)

I saw a Cube Agree eroad bike yesterday - can I introduce a new formula? 

*En+1*


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## Gary E (14 Jun 2019)

Mugshot said:


> Do you mean like this one, started by Jowwy?
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/e-bikes.239642/



Thanks, I hadn't seen that. 

So in a poll of 90 (ish) people only 1 came out against eBikes!

That has to be one of the most decisive polls we've had on here


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## Profpointy (14 Jun 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> Can't speak for other European nations but here you need a car or "mofa" licence, and you have to buy a new licence plate every year: the fee for this covers insurance and registration.
> 
> An Ebike capable of more than 29km/h (18mph) is officially a Mofa and you need an annual licence plate for it.



That sounds a reasonably sensible place to draw the line. I would need convincing that any motorised transport that is faster than the majority of cyclists should be exempt. Leci vs petrol is irrelevant in my view.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Jun 2019)

A couple of months ago I saw a guy riding one of these things, a tangerine orange piece of engineering beauty:






I had to look it up when I got home and it turns out it's a Tern. Please post a photo if you've seen one because, after all, one good Tern deserves another.




Edited to add missing word: riding


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## Gary E (14 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> A couple of months ago I saw a guy one of these things, a tangerine orange piece of engineering beauty:
> 
> View attachment 470636
> 
> ...


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## MarkF (14 Jun 2019)

I don't physically need an e-bike to do my commute but I would like a cycle that enables me to do it and arrive at work non-sweaty. The Orbea Gain looks just the thing for me but I have motorcycle license and using a Suzuki Van Van to commute is cheaper than me buying and using an Orbea Gain, my annnual running costs are sub £300 and the residual value is not falling....

I am seriously considering an Orbea Gain (subject to ever riding one) as I'd prefer to cycle rather than ride but for those with a MC license, we can commute faster and more economically.


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## CXRAndy (14 Jun 2019)

MarkF said:


> I don't physically need an e-bike to do my commute but I would like a cycle that enables me to do it and arrive at work non-sweaty



I met a woman on a cycling holiday. She was extremely strong rider, much stronger than I was. In discussion she said she cycled an hour into work most days, but used an ebike so she arrived fresh and not sweaty as you describe. She seemed to have the ideal job/location commuting along the Lake Geneva shore line-heard that line before


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## derrick (14 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> I met a woman on a cycling holiday. She was extremely strong rider, much stronger than I was. In discussion she said she cycled an hour into work most days, but used an ebike so she arrived fresh and not sweaty as you describe. She seemed to have the ideal job/location commuting along the Lake Geneva shore line-heard that line before


That's what they should be used for, Not keeping up with club cyclist's on proper bikes.


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## youngoldbloke (14 Jun 2019)

derrick said:


> That's what they should be used for, Not keeping up with club cyclist's on proper bikes.


I assume this is a wind-up. I can't help thinking this is directed at me, given my previous posts. As I've said before, I feel I've served my cycling apprenticeship, riding 'proper bikes' for well over 50 years. Now by a quirk of fate I am unable to ride those bikes. I have been and still am a member of a cycling club, in fact I still organise the leisure rides programme. Am I wrong to wish to take part and continue riding with those riders? Should I give up doing so? The assistance offered by an Orbea Gain allows me to continue taking part, and fortunately the people I ride with do not have such closed minds as some posters on this forum.


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## CXRAndy (14 Jun 2019)

derrick said:


> That's what they should be used for, Not keeping up with club cyclist's on proper bikes.



I dont see the issue with being used for club runs. We have two or three older riders who like to part of the club run but find it difficult especially on the longer hills. An ebike could provide a solution to them


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## T4tomo (14 Jun 2019)

The are quite a good solution for the age old conundrum of how does a fat lazy downhill mountain biker get to the top of the trail, where there isn't a ski lift style set up to take him up there, apparently.


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## classic33 (14 Jun 2019)

Why only bikes? I'd have had one of these on the ferry back if the limit allowed them at the time.






DHL have e-assist quads in use now. Under the old restrictions they weren't allowed. But for close on two years, I sent the local test station and DVLA office nuts trying to get my quad passed. Started at parlimentary level in 2008, along with a load of others.





The DHL ones appear to be suited for use on/in flat areas when loaded.


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## T4tomo (14 Jun 2019)

All the cycle Rickshaws in London appear to have converted to electric assist now.


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## Phaeton (14 Jun 2019)

T4tomo said:


> All the cycle Rickshaws in London appear to have converted to electric assist now.


Makes sense to me.


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## Scaleyback (14 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> I assume this is a wind-up. I can't help thinking this is directed at me, given my previous posts.



Peter, rise above the people who think the only way is their way. Keep doing what you enjoy doing.


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## Lee_M (14 Jun 2019)

agreed. the chairman fo my ex cycling club had one following a diving accident which meant he could no longer ride a "proper" bike.

what is a proper bike anyway? an aero, a cx, a gravel, a recumbent?

surely its whatever you want to ride, and of that has assistance then fine, just turn off strava


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## youngoldbloke (14 Jun 2019)

Strava? Never used it.


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## derrick (14 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> I dont see the issue with being used for club runs. We have* two or three older riders* who like to part of the club run but find it difficult especially on the longer hills. An ebike could provide a solution to them


If everyone in the club is happy to ride with Ebikes it's not a problem. It's good you encourage the older riders, nothing wrong with that, when i get old i will probably get one but at 67 i have a few years to go before that happens.


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Jun 2019)

*Mod note:
*
I've just had a read through of the latest posts (over the last day) on here and it appears that we have ended up in the same position as the closed thread that spawned it ie with some poor taste personal remarks and unproductive dialogue in evidence.

This thread will now be closed until such time as it can be cleaned up. The previously closed thread took around 1.5 hours to clean up and to take the appropriate action with certain members and tbh I do not have the time or inclination right now to spend the same again on this one. My guess is that one of us (Mods) will get around to it some time over the weekend although this is not a certainty.

This is a sorry state of affairs as the discourse around ebikes is of interest to a number of our members and the actions of a few are spoiling the threads for them.

On a similar note this is a relatively benign area of the forum where problems are few and far between and it is disappointing to note this type of behaviour within this sub-section. 

Further: the threads combined have generated large numbers of reports, all of which have had to be read and have had to be acted upon if required. This has also consumed a large amount of time for several of the Mods which has been onerous amongst all the other forum maintenance tasks that we deal with.

So... the ploy of starting a new thread that, in thinly veiled fashion, merely carries over the argumentative discussions of a closed thread will not be welcome once this thread is closed. If someone decides to go down this route then we will delete the thread and put the OP into moderation ie limiting their access to the forum on a post pre-approval basis.

I'm sorry to have to have made this post this but enough is enough and I hope that we can continue to discuss ebikes and the benefits and issues etc relating to them in a productive and civilised manner.


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Jun 2019)

Mod Note:
After a clean up of personal attacks and quotes thereof, this thread is now reopened.
Some posts have been edited so the thread could still make sense after removing said personal attacks.


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## Phaeton (16 Jun 2019)

It is clear there is a perception that E-bikes are for the old, infirm, overweight or the feckless, where does that perception come from? I'd like to think we could have an adult discussion about it, is it the manufacturers advertisements, is it the press, is it the competitive nature of the sport bearing in mind very few of us compete, but alas I doubt we can have that discussion all sat behind our keyboards in relative anonymity, would be far different if we were all sat in the pub.


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## winjim (16 Jun 2019)

If we had better infrastructure and ebikes were cheaper, my wife would get one and use it instead of the car for many trips. As it is she doesn't want to cycle on roads or struggle up the Sheffield hills on a regular bike.


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Jun 2019)

When I read somewhere that 53% of bike sales in the NL are e bikes that made me sit up. 

The souped up bikes require a licence and there is talk of getting them and mopeds off the fietspads. They are frighteningly fast. Until you have ridden through Den Haag or Utrecht during rush hour, I don’t think you can appreciate that it isn’t an entirely rose-tinted experience. It is surprisingly difficult and you need to be a decent cyclist. If you were hit by a super-e bike you would know all about it. 

Normal E bikes fit perfectly into the flow and have earned their place. They make a lot of sense if you are traveling frequently and far and you won’t arrive in a sweating heap. They aren’t silly fast, so if you are so inclined, Puritans on their road bikes can still pass them. And can I just say, I was passing them on my tourer, 4 bags up and a tent. Had to slip that in for egotistical reasons known only to myself.


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## Turdus philomelos (16 Jun 2019)

Would you use a road bike the on the black run at Glentress?
Would you take a low geared mountain bike on a 50 mile club run?
Would you use a cargo bike to ride a gravel adventure?
Would you use a pedal assist bike on your daily 15 mile commute with 600 meter ascent battling into 60km+ head wind?

Bikes are tools so its all about picking the right one to get _your _job done.


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## Slick (16 Jun 2019)

Turdus philomelos said:


> Would you use a road bike the on the black run at Glentress?
> Would you take a low geared mountain bike on a 50 mile club run?
> Would you use a cargo bike to ride a gravel adventure?
> Would you use a pedal assist bike on your daily 15 mile commute with 600 meter ascent battling into 60km+ head wind?
> ...


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## Jimidh (16 Jun 2019)

I’m not anti e-bikes as i’m still fit and healthy and enjoy the riding up hills under my own steam.

Above is my return commute from work (14miles) - increased e-bike availability (along with better infrastructure) might encourage more people to commute as the hills around here must put off a fair amount of people from hopping on their bikes.


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## Turdus philomelos (17 Jun 2019)

… oh did I mention the *massive* increase in heart. lung, muscle fitness and weight loss since using my pedal assist bike to commute.

Weirdly I now work harder on my ride home after a day at work than I did on my hybrid commuter


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Jun 2019)

*Mod note:*

Thread now closed permanently.


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