# Tesla self drive car overtaking cyclists



## united4ever (16 Nov 2020)

Coming to a street near you? Didn't change lanes? Too close isn't it? Think this is some beta version car.


View: https://youtu.be/lafFWQNioEs


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## Specialeyes (16 Nov 2020)

I'd be delighted if cars all slowed down and gave me that much room!


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## IaninSheffield (17 Nov 2020)

It was a *pair* of cyclists that the car/sensors/AI detected. Wonder what its/their strategy would have been in the case of a singleton?


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## winjim (17 Nov 2020)

The cyclists did all the hard work there.


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## mustang1 (17 Nov 2020)

The car moved half into the other lane; that seems ok to me.

On another note: impressive piece of software and the way the sensors pick up obstacles. I wish more software was written like that rather than the consumer crap the rest of us get.


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## winjim (17 Nov 2020)

Now do it without the cyclists singling out, and with the outside one suddenly swerving round a drain cover.


Edit: on a winding rough surfaced road, with cars parked either side, in the rain, on a single lane etc etc. Basically do it in anything other than the absolutely ideal conditions which are in that vid.


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## screenman (17 Nov 2020)

Although not self steering my car would have slowed me to the cyclist speed allowing a braking distance, until I had enough clear space in front by going wide to overtake them. Had I been allowing it to do so of course.


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## keithmac (17 Nov 2020)

Specialeyes said:


> I'd be delighted if cars all slowed down and gave me that much room!



Same here, it's like Whacky Races most days on my commute..


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## Mburton1993 (17 Nov 2020)

Well it’s better than those motorists that just won’t overtake until the whole road’s clear and you’re 2 millimetres from the kerb and drive behind you for ages.


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## icowden (17 Nov 2020)

IaninSheffield said:


> It was a *pair* of cyclists that the car/sensors/AI detected. Wonder what its/their strategy would have been in the case of a singleton?



Same strategy I imagine. Autopilot is programmed to be very conservative. Crashing and/or killing people is really bad PR for a car famed for it's self-driving ability.


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## icowden (17 Nov 2020)

winjim said:


> Now do it without the cyclists singling out, and with the outside one suddenly swerving round a drain cover.
> Edit: on a winding rough surfaced road, with cars parked either side, in the rain, on a single lane etc etc. Basically do it in anything other than the absolutely ideal conditions which are in that vid.



Valid points. Autopilot is mostly tested in America which isn't known for its abundance of narrow single lane roads. That said, Tesla's have night vision and all sorts of telemetry which means that its vision should be better than a humans, and decision making (as I mentioned above) tends to be conservative. You would be most likely to have irate motorists behind you honking their horns as the Tesla refuses to overtake until there is sufficient room.


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## Notafettler (17 Nov 2020)

One cyclist has been killed by self drive car, it ploughed into him. Although it was an uber car


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## mjr (17 Nov 2020)

mustang1 said:


> The car moved half into the other lane; that seems ok to me.


If it has to wait for the other lane to be clear, it could and should move completely into the other lane. Passing in lane is wrong on all but the very widest.


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## gzoom (17 Nov 2020)

For all those people who think cyclist some how deserve more rights on the road this video of a Tesla going through a busy street should bring people down to reality. Watch from about 3.30, cyclist running red lights, weaving through busy pedestrian crossing, a scooter rider trying to tailgate a bus....Essentially before cyclist get high and mighty about how cars should pass them, cyclist should learn to follow the rules of the road. 


View: https://youtu.be/bTM-oZJdGZo


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## mjr (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Essentially before cyclist get high and mighty about how cars should pass them, cyclist should learn to follow the rules of the road.


I am not them. I cannot make them behave. I have been part of campaigns for more cyclist training and more traffic policing for many years. I do not deserve to have my life put in danger because some other cyclists break rules (some of which are unjustified bull shoot as I am sure you know) or even the law.

Why do you not hold motorists to this rule? No more toys for drivers until they all stop breaking laws.


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## winjim (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> For all those people who think cyclist some how deserve more rights on the road this video of a Tesla going through a busy street should bring people down to reality. Watch from about 3.30, cyclist running red lights, weaving through busy pedestrian crossing, a scooter rider trying to tailgate a bus....Essentially before cyclist get high and mighty about how cars should pass them, cyclist should learn to follow the rules of the road.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/bTM-oZJdGZo



Did you see the cyclists in the OP literally get out of the way of the car in order to make the overtake easier?


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## Dave Davenport (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> For all those people who think cyclist some how deserve more rights on the road this video of a Tesla going through a busy street should bring people down to reality. Watch from about 3.30, cyclist running red lights, weaving through busy pedestrian crossing, a scooter rider trying to tailgate a bus....Essentially before cyclist get high and mighty about how cars should pass them, cyclist should learn to follow the rules of the road.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/bTM-oZJdGZo



Yeh, and they should pay some bloody road tax too.


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## keithmac (17 Nov 2020)

I see bad cycling and bad driving almost daily.

It's the individual not the vehicle but some tar all cyclists with the same brush unfortunately..


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## Arjimlad (17 Nov 2020)

@gzoom you seem to be suggesting that we and our loved ones should accept close passes & dangerous driving around us, because of the unruly behaviour of some other people on bikes on the other side of the world?


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## icowden (17 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> If it has to wait for the other lane to be clear, it could and should move completely into the other lane. Passing in lane is wrong on all but the very widest.


You are applying UK highway code guidance. This Tesla is not in the UK.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Essentially before cyclist get high and mighty about how cars should pass them, cyclist should learn to follow the rules of the road.


Oh, really? And what training have you had in that regard? Using the medium of being high and mighty to decry others for being high and mighty is pretty crass, even for you.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2020)

icowden said:


> You are applying UK highway code guidance. This Tesla is not in the UK.


no, I'm applying logic and physics. The UK HC rules are pathetic but might improve slightly soon, depending on gov response to a recent consultation.

Decency when driving is decency worldwide.


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## gzoom (17 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> Oh, really? And what training have you had in that regard? Using the medium of being high and mighty to decry others for being high and mighty is pretty crass, even for you.



None, but I don't moan about 'close passes'. If cyclists want to moan about drivers than cyclists need insurance and regulating like driver do. I cycle as much as I drive these days, so lets not pretend cyclists are some how 'more entitled' to be on the road than drivers. Why should a car move all the way over because some cyclists are taking up road space?


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## mjr (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> None, but I don't moan about 'close passes'. If cyclists want to moan about drivers than cyclists need insurance and regulating like driver do.


Grammar fail. Did you mean "then"? If so, how does one logically follow from the other? Do no uninsured or unlicensed drivers moan?



> I cycle as much as I drive these days, so lets not pretend cyclists are some how 'more entitled' to be on the road than drivers.


Who's pretending? Which are there by right and which are there on licence?



> Why should a car move all the way over because some cyclists are taking up road space?


To reduce the risk of colliding with and killing them in unforeseen incidents. Why shouldn't a motorist move over into the next lane when passing?


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## Drago (17 Nov 2020)

A car would have to move fully into the next lane when passing another car, so why should vulnerable road users be given any less countenance?


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## gzoom (17 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Why shouldn't a motorist move over into the next lane when passing?



And that's the kind of attitude why large number of motorists hate cyclists.

If you can program/teach an autonomous driving car to do what you want - move the car 100% into the opposite lane, that realistically is the only way cars will make that much space for cyclists.

I cycle on real roads, not pretend ones, unless a car is literally brushing past me they have given me enough space. 

To expect human drivers to move all way into the opposite lane is just pure fantasy. Actually if legislation said - a car HAS to move into the opposite lane or give 2 meters space to pass a car, than companies like Tesla will alter their autonomous software to comply.

Autonomous cars is potentially the biggest boost for cyclists, but till than there is no point dreaming about the impossible.


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## glasgowcyclist (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> cyclists need insurance and regulating like driver do



Don't you understand why drivers need to be insured and regulated as they are? (And why cyclists don't?)


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## gzoom (17 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> A car would have to move fully into the next lane when passing another car, so why should vulnerable road users be given any less countenance?



And how many times on you're ride today did a car move fully into the next lane when passing? I want world peace, because its how the world should work, but we all know that's not going to happen any time soon.

Wishing for something that will never happen in real life is just wasting effort/breath. 90% of motorist see cyclists some thing to be tolerated, about 1% probably want to run us off the road. Removing human drivers from cars is probably the only way to achieve want you want.


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## newfhouse (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> unless a car is literally brushing past me they have given me enough space.


Ooh, look at you, you’re so brave


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## Drago (17 Nov 2020)

Not just brave - balls of iron. His blatant disregard for danger makes me proud to be on the same forum. You know, I bet he wrestles corcodiles in his spare time.


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## gzoom (17 Nov 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Ooh, look at you, you’re so brave



And how do you control how much space a car is going to give you when they overtake you?? Do you have a magical remote control to make them go into the opposite lane??

The point is as much as people on here pontificate about giving cyclists space 90%+ of motorists don't care. So all your doing talking about passing in the opposite lane is just blowing hot air.

The only way to actually ensure cars go into the opposite lane is by having automated cars using software like Tesla is developing.

So tell me what do you do when a car gives you what you would consider a 'close pass', how do you make sure they don't do the same with the next cyclist??

Its not about what we want motorists to do when passing cyclist, its about been realistic at what factors you can control. 

So again please tell me if you have a magical solution that makes cars you in the opposite lane .


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> And that's the kind of attitude why large number of motorists hate cyclists.



Speak for yourself, most motorists understand they must not go around putting lives in danger as it’s the right thing to do and the sign of competent driver.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> And that's the kind of attitude why large number of motorists hate cyclists.


No, don't deflect: why shouldn't a car use the other lane wholly instead of partly?



> I cycle on real roads, not pretend ones, unless a car is literally brushing past me they have given me enough space.


Why do you hate yourself so? And why do you think all cyclists should share your masochism?



> To expect human drivers to move all way into the opposite lane is just pure fantasy.


Why is it "pure fantasy" or "impossible"? They have to wait for the opposite lane to be clear, else they cannot overtake safely, so why not move all the way into it?



> Actually if legislation said - a car HAS to move into the opposite lane or give 2 meters space to pass a car, than companies like Tesla will alter their autonomous software to comply.


That seems to be where the UK is heading, with the recently-drafted changes to its Highway Code. Minimum distances are already law in some nearby countries: I wonder if self-driving cars obey there, or maybe they're testing in places that still treat their two-wheeled road users as more expendable.


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## gzoom (17 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Why is it "pure fantasy" or "impossible"? They have to wait for the opposite lane to be clear, else they cannot overtake safely, so why not move all the way into it?



So you live in a country where cars only overtake a cyclist if they can go in the opposite lane??

Please tell me where this country is because its certainly not the UK.


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## Mburton1993 (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> So you live in a country where cars only overtake a cyclist if they can go in the opposite lane??
> 
> Please tell me where this country is because its certainly not the UK.



That’s a fair point, I used to commute into Manchester, during rush hour it’s far too busy to reasonably expect a car to move entirely into the opposite lane to overtake.


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## Solocle (17 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> Not just brave - balls of iron. His blatant disregard for danger makes me proud to be on the same forum. You know, I bet he wrestles corcodiles in his spare time.


What, like this?

All look further away than that Tesla.


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## Drago (17 Nov 2020)

Mburton1993 said:


> That’s a fair point, I used to commute into Manchester, during rush hour it’s far too busy to reasonably expect a car to move entirely into the opposite lane to overtake.


Whether you go 1 foot or the whole car into the other lane it requires that the other lane be clear, so that makes no odds - it requires the same conditions to be able to overtake.

If you can't overtake safely and considerately then you simply shouldn't overtake. There's no divine right to do so regardless of how it may endanger or inconvenience those around you. If thats a problem for you then perhaps you should leave 5 minutes earlier... or take the bike.


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## DCBassman (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> And that's the kind of attitude why large number of motorists hate cyclists.


Cyclists are, AFAIK, entitled to the *same space* as cars. What IS your problem?


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## Mburton1993 (17 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> Whether you go 1 foot or the whole car into the other lane it requires that the other lane be clear, so that makes no odds - it requires the same conditions to be able to overtake.
> 
> If you can't overtake safely and considerately then you simply shouldn't overtake. There's no divine right to do so regardless of how it may endanger or inconvenience those around you. If thats a problem for you then perhaps you should leave 5 minutes earlier... or take the bike.



Apologies, I may have not made it clear in my comment, by commute I mean cycle, I'm not a motorist.


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## newfhouse (17 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> And how do you control how much space a car is going to give you when they overtake you?? Do you have a magical remote control to make them go into the opposite lane??


When out on country roads the answer is to encourage them to only pass you when it is safe. Often this can be controlled by riding in a sensibly assertive way, using primary position to ensure you are seen as traffic and denying the opportunity for squeezing past. Equally, I will try to read the road and find a suitable place to allow a safe overtake if drivers behind me have been respectful. I’m fortunate that much of my riding is London commuting so I’m usually passing slower traffic.

In practice 1.5 metres is adequate clearance at reasonable vehicle speeds. Your acceptance of passes that just miss your elbow isn’t right in my view.

Maybe I’m lucky, but I find that most drivers are pretty good most of the time as long as my movements are predictable.


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## mustang1 (18 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> If it has to wait for the other lane to be clear, it could and should move completely into the other lane. Passing in lane is wrong on all but the very widest.


That is a good point but on numerous times, if I am driving on a single lane road (one lane in my direction, one lane in opposite direction) and I overtake cyclists, I also move half into the opposing lane rather than completely in it. As long as I give enough space to the cyclists, I am ok with that. In the case of the Tesla video, just because all the lanes are going in the same direction does not mean the car always has to move completely into the other lane.
Having said that, if I'm driving on a two lane road and I see cyclists in left lane, I do move _completely _onto the right lane to be extra safe. I suppose the Tesla software deemed a half-lane manoeuvre to be safe enough though (which I think it was).


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## icowden (18 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> no, I'm applying logic and physics. The UK HC rules are pathetic but might improve slightly soon, depending on gov response to a recent consultation.
> Decency when driving is decency worldwide.



People don't design things to comply with decency. They design them to comply with laws.
In the US, most states seem to have a law that states that a car shall always leave 3 feet of distance between the right side and the cyclist.
It is therefore likely that the programmers at Tesla have programmed Tesla autopilot to obey those laws.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/transportation/safely-passing-bicyclists.aspx#:~:text=The driver of a vehicle overtaking a bicycle traveling in,clear of the overtaken bicycle.

Of course this is one of the many complications of rolling out Autopilot worldwide. The Tesla AI has to understand and comply with motoring laws in many different countries.

@mjr's point about moving wholly into the other lane is perfectly valid, but without legislation, training and enforcement it's unlikely to happen. Therefore I also side with @gzoom in that we have to deal with what *actually* happens rather than what should happen.

On a 40 mile ride last Sunday I was close passed by 5 vehicles, 1 dangerously so. Most cars however gave me about the same distance as the Tesla - the "half lane" pass. A very few did a whole lane pass. There was no reason for any of the cars not to do a whole lane pass, but from the Driver's perspective it looked lke they gave plenty of room, and from my perspective, I was not concerned that my life was in danger, compared to the close passers (one of which was an utter %&^%&^ - I'd have reported that one if I had a camera on).

On two occasions I was on narrow single track roads where I held up a car. On both of those occasions the motorist was cheerful and waited for me to find a little bit of space where I could pull over and let them past. I didn't have to do that of course, but for me, I'd rather let the motorist past and have a less stressful cycle.


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## mjr (18 Nov 2020)

Do posters here accept that a half lane pass is more risky than a full lane pass?

It may take a bizarre spill for a cyclist on a straight road to fall into the path of a car passing five feet away, but it would be an even rarer one to be in the next lane, so why risk it? It just seems like lazy driving, increasing the risk to the rider because one can't be bothered turning the steering wheel a little more.


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## matticus (18 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> gzoom said:
> "cyclists need insurance and regulating like driver do"
> 
> Don't you understand why drivers need to be insured and regulated as they are? (And why cyclists don't?)


And what about pedestrians @gzoom ? Should they carry full documentation? Is it OK to drive up on the pavement and flatten the odd one if they don't?


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## Jody (18 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> None, but I don't moan about 'close passes'. If cyclists want to moan about drivers than cyclists need insurance and regulating like driver do. I cycle as much as I drive these days, so lets not pretend cyclists are some how 'more entitled' to be on the road than drivers. Why should a car move all the way over because some cyclists are taking up road space?



Are you for real


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## icowden (18 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> It may take a bizarre spill for a cyclist on a straight road to fall into the path of a car passing five feet away, but it would be an even rarer one to be in the next lane, so why risk it? It just seems like lazy driving, increasing the risk to the rider because one can't be bothered turning the steering wheel a little more.



I think it's human nature and perception of risk.

If I am driving on a normal 2 lane road and want to overtake the car in front, then obviously I have to pull into the oncoming traffic lane to complete the overtake. As I plan and execute the maneuver I am acutely aware that I need to have sufficient distance to oncoming traffic to safely complete the overtake and that risk is heightened dependent on the amount of road I can see in front of me. I'm at speed, so covering ground quickly. My natural instinct is to want to get back to "my lane" as quickly as possible.

Now if I apply the same logic to overtaking a cyclist, whilst I could do a whole lane pass (and there are plenty of reasons why I should do this - cyclist is at a slower speed than a car would be etc) the tendency is not to want to do that but to minimise my exposure to the oncoming traffic lane. Thus the more common overtake is the half lane overtake. It minimises exposure to the other lane, reduces the distance that I have to move off line etc. People tend to go with what they feel is right, rather than what might be better.

In my experience, the "whole lane" overtakers tend to be more nervous (e.g. P Plates), or more elderly drivers.


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## Mr Celine (18 Nov 2020)

When I was learning to drive (40 years ago in Perth) one of the local driving examiners cycled to his work every day. If you had him for the test and got within 6 feet of a moving cyclist you failed. 
The local driving instructors knew this and taught their pupils accordingly.

The Tesla in the first post would not have passed its test with that examiner.


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## winjim (18 Nov 2020)

icowden said:


> In my experience, the "whole lane" overtakers tend to be more nervous (e.g. P Plates), or more elderly drivers.


Driving back into Sheffield from watching the Tour of Britain stage out at Strines, I've never seen so many well executed and considerate overtakes. So it's not just the nervous and elderly, it's also people who give a shoot about cyclists.


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## mjr (18 Nov 2020)

winjim said:


> Driving back into Sheffield from watching the Tour of Britain stage out at Strines, I've never seen so many well executed and considerate overtakes. So it's not just the nervous and elderly, it's also people who give a shoot about cyclists.


Yes, but if we don't insult and belittle competent drivers, the inconsiderate ones might start feeling bad(!)


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## rivers (18 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> None, but I don't moan about 'close passes'. If cyclists want to moan about drivers than cyclists need insurance and regulating like driver do. I cycle as much as I drive these days, so lets not pretend cyclists are some how 'more entitled' to be on the road than drivers. Why should a car move all the way over because some cyclists are taking up road space?



I, as well as many other cyclists, have third party liability insurance. Mine is for £15 million cover. How about yours? I am not more entitled than other road users, however, I am just as entitled to use the road as other road users. Cyclists do not "take up road space". It's being a decent human being to pass another road user safely, which includes moving over. Sadly, there are too many people on this planet who don't know what it's like to be a decent human these days.


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## Milkfloat (18 Nov 2020)

icowden said:


> People don't design things to comply with decency. They design them to comply with laws.
> In the US, most states seem to have a law that states that a car shall always leave 3 feet of distance between the right side and the cyclist.
> It is therefore likely that the programmers at Tesla have programmed Tesla autopilot to obey those laws.
> 
> ...



The law is _a minimum_ of x feet. I am not sure how Tesla have done it, but it should be as simple as a minimum x ft distance but use the full lane if possible.


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## glasgowcyclist (18 Nov 2020)

icowden said:


> Thus the more common overtake is the half lane overtake.




My experience of these 'alongsiders' is that when something does come the other way I am forgotten about and the eejit quickly returns to the left while I'm still there.

Treat the lane as fully occupied, as you would with any other vehicle.


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## gzoom (18 Nov 2020)

rivers said:


> Sadly, there are too many people on this planet who don't know what it's like to be a decent human these days.



And as I keep pointing out I live in the real world not a fantasy land. Unless someone tells me they have a way to make cars overtake them on the other lanes all this noise is just that, noise, which most motorists will not care about.

On my commute to work today not a single car moved to the other lane when overtaking me, so what is it you guys want me to do?? 

Removing human drivers is the only way to ensure cars behave according to legislation around cyclists. Incidentally in my Tesla when on Autopilot the car will refuse to go over the set speed limit, so 30 really is 30. If the legislation was you have to pass a cyclist in the opposite lane thats exactly now the car can be programmed to respond.

Till than I still await the magical answer no one here has given me........How to do I ensure cars over take me in the other lane on my commute home tonight?


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## gzoom (18 Nov 2020)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Treat the lane as fully occupied, as you would with any other vehicle.



Are you suggesting I should cycle in the middle of the road all the time???


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## glasgowcyclist (18 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Are you suggesting I should cycle in the middle of the road all the time???



Hardly.

I'm addressing lane-share overtakers and suggesting they treat the lane the cyclist is in as already occupied and move right over to the next one.

If you want to cycle in the middle of your lane, I (as a motorist) will have absolutely no problem with that.


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## CXRAndy (18 Nov 2020)

mustang1 said:


> The car moved half into the other lane; that seems ok to me.
> 
> On another note: impressive piece of software and the way the sensors pick up obstacles. I wish more software was written like that rather than the consumer crap the rest of us get.



Im looking forward to the subsequent release to all Tesla's. I have full FSD awaiting the latest iteration. 

However, its very good already, just not full fat coke. My car picks out pedestrians and cyclists, will slow down and await for me to complete the manoeuvre


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## Arjimlad (19 Nov 2020)

I'm quite thankful really, that drivers who have the attitude displayed in some posts above get corrected when they're reported to the police. 

A close pass is classed as driving without due care and prosecuted as such in most areas of the UK.

Close passes and other dangerous driving habits are the biggest deterrent to would-be cyclists in my experience. Sharing the road with drivers should not be just for the bold & the brave or those willing to risk their necks. My family & I should be able to cycle to work or to school without some impatient clot putting us in danger of death or serious injury. 

The majority of people driving understand the need to give space, and we need to weed out the bad apples where we can, and where practical, provide segregated infra.


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## Tripster (19 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> . 90% of motorist see cyclists some thing to be tolerated, about 1% probably want to run us off the road.


Where did this bullshit statistic come from ?


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## Dave Davenport (19 Nov 2020)

Tripster said:


> Where did this bullshit statistic come from ?


Quite, it's common knowledge that the actual figures are 88.637% and 1.026% (rounded up) respectively.


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## mjr (19 Nov 2020)

Arjimlad said:


> [...] and where practical, provide segregated infra.


Ahhhh you lost my support on the penultimate word there! I want protected infra, not segregated. As cyclist numbers increase (and I get older), it'll become even more important that the faster "brave and bold" can use the carriageway to overtake the likes of me 

...without fear of dud overtakes from self-driving cars, too.


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## Drago (19 Nov 2020)

Gzoom has just contradicted themselves. If so many motorists are looking to run us off the road, then why be so happy to accept close passes? Thats like not being worried about having your head chopped off, then going for a walk in ISIS territory while wearing a Bruce Springsteen T shirt anyway.


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## Dave Davenport (19 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> going for a walk in ISIS territory while wearing a Bruce Springsteen T shirt.


I thought you did that every Friday night for a bit of an adrenalin boost.


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## Drago (19 Nov 2020)

Well, lately ive take to cycling through Texas wearing an 'I Love Hilary Clinton' T shirt, while Billy Brag blasts out the stereo strapped to the handlebars.


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## gzoom (20 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> Gzoom has just contradicted themselves. If so many motorists are looking to run us off the road, then why be so happy to accept close passes?



Its called real life? What do you want me to do about motorists who pass too closely? 

As I keep on asking, and no one seems to be able to answer. Short of NOT cycling on the roads, I cannot see any way I can avoid a 'close' pass, and given I have little control over what a motorist is doing I simply don't waste time or effort worrying about 'close' passes.

I see people suggest reporting drivers to the police, unless someone magics up more hours in the day I simply don't have the time or inclination to do that.


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## gzoom (20 Nov 2020)

Tripster said:


> Where did this bullshit statistic come from ?



Its based on what I experience on the roads, less than 1 in 10 cars overtake me by going into the opposite lane, which appears to be agreed 'safe' overtaking procedure on here for cars passing bikes.

If you guys live in a city where 9 out of 10 cars over take cyclist in the opposite lane than count your selves lucky.


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## Tripster (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Its based on what I experience on the roads, less than 1 in 10 cars overtake me by going into the opposite lane, which appears to be agreed 'safe' overtaking procedure on here for cars passing bikes.
> 
> If you guys live in a city where 9 out of 10 cars over take cyclist in the opposite lane than count your selves lucky.


Sorry, so you meant 90% of motorists don’t overtake on opposite side of road not 90% of motorists hate cyclists and 1% want to kill us


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## Drago (20 Nov 2020)

The good news is that Tesla Model S and Model Y reliabiloty ratings are now so low that they've actually dropped off the bottom of the Consumer Reports league table and are no longer listed. This means the odds of one running long enough to actually close pass you are quite slim.


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## Arjimlad (20 Nov 2020)

@mjr soz - I think that's what I meant !


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## mjr (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Its called real life? What do you want me to do about motorists who pass too closely?


In order of difficulty: not keep suggesting that everyone should be happy with traffic violence; ride centrally in narrow lanes; press for more enforcement of minimum passing distances; report close passers that you catch on camera.



> As I keep on asking, and no one seems to be able to answer. [...] I see people suggest reporting drivers to the police, unless someone magics up more hours in the day I simply don't have the time or inclination to do that.


In other words, people were able to answer but you did not like the answer!

It's not a matter of creating more hours, it's how you allocate them: people like me and @Arjimlad think it worth spending the time helping police find out who needs educating or removing from the roads before they do worse to other cyclists. You feel you have more important things to do with that time and that's fine, but please stop basically suggesting that we should all bend over and accept idiot drivers attempting to mount us.


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## mjr (20 Nov 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> I just checked and no one has said "Space Karen" in this thread yet, so I thought I'd be the first to say it.


Is that Tesla's new SUV?


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## gzoom (20 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> In order of difficulty: not keep suggesting that everyone should be happy with traffic violence; ride centrally in narrow lanes; press for more enforcement of minimum passing distances; report close passers that you catch on camera.



Am sorry again maybe you live in a different world from me, but how does any of that stop 'close' passes when I cycle home tonight? Please do tell me.


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## DCBassman (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Am sorry again maybe you live in a different world from me, but how does any of that stop 'close' passes when I cycle home tonight? Please do tell me.



Well, if you ride centrally in narrow lanes, then during those parts of your ride, you _cannot _be close-passed. So that helps you somewhat when you cycle home tonight.


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## mjr (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Am sorry again maybe you live in a different world from me, but how does any of that stop 'close' passes when I cycle home tonight? Please do tell me.


Rome wasn't built in a day, so it's not an entirely reasonable question, but riding centrally in narrow lanes will usually stop some close passes (no need for the scare quotes: close is close). I find looking behind at the following driver also discourages some, but that's a lot less certain. Beyond that, why won't you take action today to help yourself and others tomorrow? That's what I don't get about you: if it doesn't offer you immediate complete protection, then you seem to dismiss it as not worthwhile.

We can't prevent all of them immediately, of course. If you search on here, you'll probably find me pulling people up for using language that implies we can. Not even riding on a kerb-protected cycleway will stop 100% of bozo drivers because some will still mount the farking kerb (at speed, without looking, let alone yielding to cycleway users) to do stuff like pass a car that's stopped centrally waiting to turn. All you can do is discourage them, both now and in the future.

And yes, I know I live in a different roadscape to you: I cross one 40mph road, then can get almost all the way to my nearest town's central 20mph zones on kerbed cycleways, thanks to past cyclists here having pushed for them. In the other direction, I can take C/U roads to the edges of other nearby towns and their cycleways. Unless I deliberately choose to ride on the rural main roads rather than the back lanes, I'm unlikely to be close-passed at speed - but even on the main roads, it should not happen, of course.


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## matticus (20 Nov 2020)

Dogtrousers said:


> Riding in the gutter/to the left invites close passes (as well as punctures and, depending on parking arrangements, possibly also dooring). Owning the lane discourages passes of any kind, and gives you plenty of room to escape into. Somewhere in between works well, allowing sane drivers to pass, yet still have some escape room from nutters and so you can easily move centrally to block overtakes if there is a pinch point coming up,
> 
> But we all know that.


You would think so, wouldn't you??


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## gzoom (20 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> And yes, I know I live in a different roadscape to you: I cross one 40mph road, then can get almost all the way to my nearest town's central 20mph zones on kerbed cycleways, thanks to past cyclists here having pushed for them. In the other direction, I can take C/U roads to the edges of other nearby towns and their cycleways. Unless I deliberately choose to ride on the rural main roads rather than the back lanes, I'm unlikely to be close-passed at speed - but even on the main roads, it should not happen, of course.



Yeaph you do live in a different world to me. I cross a 3 lane 5 exit round about every day with a HGV depot near by, dual carriageways, and single lane road + inner city roads. 

I've been commuting on/off for the last 10 years on the bike, I've just learnt its utterly pointless to get annoyed/angry at car drivers. I do actually cycle quite defensively around junctions, but I've had people than go around a traffic island (in the opposite lane ironically) so they can get ahead of me before a right turn - I don't care any more, its their car and if they crash into on coming traffic trying to pass me its their fault.

I simply don't see the point of trying to enforce totally unenforcable practices like mandating cars need to pass cyclists in the opposite lane, its just no going to happen. If I tried to report what you guys would judge to be a 'near pass' - less than 1 meter, every day I would be filling in a dozen reports - I have better things to do with my time. 

For me the only solution is the removal humans from the driving seat, if you tell an automated car never to pass a cyclist untill the opposite lane is clear it will do it every time. When on Autopilot my Tesla refuses to go above the posted speed limit in urban zones, so 20 = 20, 30 = 30, how many human driver can actually NEVER break the 20-30mph limit in cities?

Where you cycle sounds lovely though .


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## icowden (20 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> The good news is that Tesla Model S and Model Y reliabiloty ratings are now so low that they've actually dropped off the bottom of the Consumer Reports league table and are no longer listed. This means the odds of one running long enough to actually close pass you are quite slim.



Although if you read "What Car?" apparently you may come to a different conclusion...

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/0...-uk-survey-tesla-model-3-is-reliability-king/


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## mjr (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> I simply don't see the point of trying to enforce totally unenforcable practices like mandating cars need to pass cyclists in the opposite lane, its just no going to happen.


It's not "totally unenforceable", though: the worst close passes are now being enforced using laws banning careless driving by many police forces, under projects like Operation Close Pass and Operation Snap.



> If I tried to report what you guys would judge to be a 'near pass' - less than 1 meter, every day I would be filling in a dozen reports - I have better things to do with my time.


You don't have to report them all, you know? You could start with the worst, if and when you have time. It takes less time than you've probably spent on here 



> For me the only solution is the removal humans from the driving seat, if you tell an automated car never to pass a cyclist untill the opposite lane is clear it will do it every time.


Maybe. Firstly, we need to get the enforcement expectations so that human drivers are being punished for close passes. Then we need to make the automated cars behave well. If we are letting human drivers get away with skimming cyclists, the automated car makers will insist on being allowed to do the same, even if they implement slightly better.



> Where you cycle sounds lovely though .


It's not perfect - some of the cycleways contain design farts and one council keeps trying to turn some of them into car lanes again - but hopefully I'm less likely to be killed by a passing impatient driver than some places I've lived and cycled.

It only got this way because previous generations of cyclists didn't stand for the sort of shoot road conditions that you describe, though. I'm just one of the latest trying to nudge things forwards.


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## matticus (20 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> You don't have to report them all, you know? You could start with the worst, if and when you have time.* It takes less time than you've probably spent on here*


Damn I was going to say that!!!

@gzoom there are plenty of reports + prosecutions on Twitter. If you can't be bothered, please bet me a beer and I will find you 3 by Monday. OK?  

Meanwhile, no excuses - just do what you can. Or do nothing and stop moaning, that's Ok too


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## RoadRider400 (20 Nov 2020)

Autopilots make sense on jets because once up and in a straight line there is not a great deal to get in the way, assuming ATC are doing their job. I think there are far too many variables on land to allow cars going about on autopilot. Whatsmore the average pilot is generally intelligent and able to take back full control in a split second. The thought of some imbeciles I see on the roads having to quickly step in for a defective autopilot scares me silly.

We need to improve the quality of driving, not dilute it even further.


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## All uphill (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Its called real life? What do you want me to do about motorists who pass too closely?
> 
> As I keep on asking, and no one seems to be able to answer. Short of NOT cycling on the roads, I cannot see any way I can avoid a 'close' pass, and given I have little control over what a motorist is doing I simply don't waste time or effort worrying about 'close' passes.
> 
> I see people suggest reporting drivers to the police, unless someone magics up more hours in the day I simply don't have the time or inclination to do that.


It seems to me that you are too willingly accepting the status quo.
You want know what you can do?

Here's what I do:

Active in a local cycling campaign group,
Ride assertively and considerately,
Spread the word.
Report close passes
Above all, not roll over.


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## classic33 (20 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Its called real life? What do you want me to do about motorists who pass too closely?
> 
> As I keep on asking, and no one seems to be able to answer. Short of NOT cycling on the roads, I cannot see any way I can avoid a 'close' pass, and given I have little control over what a motorist is doing I simply don't waste time or effort worrying about 'close' passes.
> 
> I see people suggest reporting drivers to the police, unless someone magics up more hours in the day I simply don't have the time or inclination to do that.


In "real life", I've left a dent in the roof of one car that came too close. Driver decided against stopping, but suddenly gave me more room.

You've two options,

Accept that they, close passes, are going to happen and just carry on cycling.

Report the closest passes, time, date, location, registration if you get it. And accept that you can't report all that will happen.

Don't report them and your grounds for saying you can do nothing aren't as strong. The way you ride can prevent a number of them starting in the first place. Claim the lane, and don't be afraid to hold it


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## gzoom (21 Nov 2020)

classic33 said:


> Accept that they, close passes, are going to happen and just carry on cycling.



In 10 years+ of cycling I've not seen any changes to cyclists on the roads near me. Sadly am firmly in this camp.


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## gzoom (21 Nov 2020)

All uphill said:


> It seems to me that you are too willingly accepting the status quo.



Am glad you guys have more faith in changing the status quo on motorist behaviour to cyclists than me, I've given up on that idea a long time ago.

After a car decided to run a red light at a cycle lane crossing and squash the rear wheel of my bike, the driver proceeded to explain their shock of why I didn't see the them coming and expected them to stop at a red light??!! Seriously, the driver was angry at me for getting in the way of him running a red light. Yes I did see the car, but I also saw the light go red and the little green man/bike light so green so I went, but apparently that isn't how it works!! Since than I've long given up any hope of better driving/road manners from drivers.

No I didn't call the police or report the driver, he showed so little understanding of why cars shouldn't run a red light it would have just been a waste of everyone's time.

Actually at the time I remember I just had to get out of the situation as I was about 5 seconds away from doing something am sure I would have regretted, and almost certainly landed me in more trouble with the law than any punishment the driver would have got for running a red light!!


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## classic33 (21 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> In 10 years+ of cycling I've not seen any changes to cyclists on the roads near me. Sadly am firmly in this camp.


Is that as a driver or as a cyclist?

You appear willing to moan about close passes, but unwilling to do anything other than that. 
_"Don't report them and your grounds for saying you can do nothing aren't as strong."_


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## gzoom (21 Nov 2020)

classic33 said:


> Is that as a driver or as a cyclist?
> 
> You appear willing to moan about close passes, but unwilling to do anything other than that.
> _"Don't report them and your grounds for saying you can do nothing aren't as strong."_



Passed my driving test at 17 so been driving for 20 years +, got into cycling around when I was 20, did the LEJOG a few years back now. 

I have not seen any changes in how close to not close motorist pass me on UK roads since I started cycling, I don't see the point of doing something which will have zero impact on the larger scale. I don't moan about close passing, I have no issues with it - unless someone actually hits me, its the others on here who seem to want cars to pass on the other side of the road etc.


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## Drago (21 Nov 2020)

Been driving 20 uears, and done nothing to maintain, improve, or update anymslills you may have been taught.


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## Drago (21 Nov 2020)

As an olde Dibble Class 1 driver ive been taught the drils to maintain and practice my skills, but im still not where I once was. The difference is that you and I know this and admit it, and doubtless drive accordingly.


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## classic33 (21 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Passed my driving test at 17 so been driving for 20 years +, got into cycling around when I was 20, did the LEJOG a few years back now.
> 
> I have not seen any changes in how close to not close motorist pass me on UK roads since I started cycling, I don't see the point of doing something which will have zero impact on the larger scale. I don't moan about close passing, I have no issues with it - unless someone actually hits me, its the others on here who seem to want cars to pass on the other side of the road etc.
> 
> View attachment 559288


The question was asked as were you answering as a driver or a cyclist. View from within a left-hand drive car, and the way you worded you appeared to be answering as a driver.

That leaves you in the position of not being able to moan/complain as loudly, about close passes.

As for moving into the other lane, drivers should leave as much room passing you as they do any other road user. A reply along that wording has been used more than once by me, when asked how much room I thought I needed. Claim your lane and they'll have to move into the other lane to pass.


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## matticus (21 Nov 2020)

gzoom said:


> Passed my driving test at 17 so been driving for 20 years +, got into cycling around when I was 20, did the LEJOG a few years back now.
> 
> I have not seen any changes in how close to not close motorist pass me on UK roads since I started cycling, I don't see the point of doing something which will have zero impact on the larger scale.


There was a seismic shift in the space and care drivers gave us between Feb and April.
That shows what is possible.


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## gzoom (29 Nov 2020)

View: https://youtu.be/w1ByHwLiJV0


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## Cycling_Samurai (11 Mar 2021)

Wow on my console it just says "speed bumps ahead" when detecting cyclists on the road. Then promptly speeds up.


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## Drago (12 Mar 2021)

Mrs D's T8 has a form if autonomous whatsit that neither of us ever use. It also has a broken down Tesla at the side of the road warning light on the console, that beeps, plays a short clip of Sid James laughing, and then makes the car speed up. I don't do many miles, but even so it still went off twice this week.


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## Archie_tect (12 Mar 2021)

It must be a weird experience to not have control of the car and to get that stomach lurch feeling if the car goes past obstacles that you'd normally slow down earlier for, to anticipate being prepared to stop.


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## icowden (12 Mar 2021)

I had the good fortune to drive a Tesla S for a day (birthday present), and I did try self-driving (what's permitted in the UK anyway). What you describe is easily the most stressful part - at least initially. It feels incredibly stressful because you don't start to generate trust with the car as the points at which you would start to slow, or turn are not those that the Tesla necessarily chooses. I eventually got used to autobraking, but it would take a while to trust auto-steering.


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