# mass produced frames are depressing



## JimmyTheFish (13 Sep 2010)

Hi all,

Been looking round this forum and see loads of posts re single gear and fixed frames but all the talk seems to be of mass produced models coming out of Taiwanese production lines. Its all Specialized this, Genesis that and Charge the other. All very underwhelming and depressing.

Does anyone here share my interest in hand built steel frames? Especially those made in Britiain?

I'm looking for recommendations for a hand built, fillet brazed or lugged, single gear steel frame, built for town use...and preferably made in an independent workshop in the UK.

JimmyTheFish


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## John the Monkey (13 Sep 2010)

Mercian make really lovely bikes, and I'm sure they build for fixed single.

You can even use their frame builder app to paint the machine of your dreams...


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## simon_adams_uk (13 Sep 2010)

I've got a Brian Rourke frame - and it's absolutely lovely!
http://www.brianrourke.co.uk/


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## Canrider (13 Sep 2010)

I think there's actually quite a lot of interest on the forum (or at least there was a while back) in UK-made and/or steel frames.

We could include Cotic, On-One, Bob Jackson, possibly Woodrup Cycles, Chas Roberts, Paul Hewitt, Paul Villiers, maybe Nimbus cycles, Wilson Cycles...

I do realise some of these source their frames overseas, however!

And that's just 30 seconds googling 'british steel bicycle frame'. I know I've heard mention of at least #1, 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 on here.


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## clarion (13 Sep 2010)

I do ride a mass-produced fixed for commuting, but most of my bikes are classic British hand-made steel frames.

I have an Orbit, a Woodrup, a Dawes (and Dawes tandem). And my previous fixed was a Carlton, which I have now given to my son.

I wish I had the money to build up a Bob Jackson or a TJ Cycles Flying Gate, or a Rourke 953, or a Mercian, but I haven't, and I just have to live with that.


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## JimmyTheFish (13 Sep 2010)

Brilliant. Thanks John, Simon, Clarion & Canrider. This is the stuff I'm after.

Have a start budget of £400-£600 for the frame alone for this project build and now have a shortlist of the following:

Bob Jackson
TJ Cycles 
Flying Gate
Rourke
Orbit
Woodrup
Cotic
On-One
Roberts
Villiers
Nimbus
Wilson
Hewitt

I'm pretty keen on getting Reynolds tubing or Columbus as long as the tubes are actually fixed in the UK. 

Call me old fashioned but when I'm cracking open the wallet I prefer keep a fellow skilled countryman in work.

Thanks for all the help, I'll research the above and check their UK hand made credentials.

JtF


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## e-rider (13 Sep 2010)

what about ARGOS?

I'm sure 'on one' don't make handbuilt frames in the UK but I could be wrong.


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## Moodyman (13 Sep 2010)

Also consider Ellis Briggs and Pennine Cycles - both in Bradford.


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## Goldie (13 Sep 2010)

I'm saving harder than I've ever saved for anything bar the x-wing fighter toy when I was about 7 for a handbuilt bike from Wilsons of Sheffield. For the money, there is no way I'd buy something that was built outside the UK.

It is hard for me to get my head round why anyone would get excited about say, a Langster Steel or a Genesis Flyer rather than the British built singlespeeds that they take all of their styling cues from.

I'm not looking for a fixed or singlespeed at the moment, but if I were, I'd be hard pressed not to bid on this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ORBIT-Red-Whi...0450828230?pt=UK_Bikes_GL&hash=item20b3858fc6


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## mike-L (13 Sep 2010)

Are you just going brand new? I've just swopped my old Orbit frame for a 631 Graham Weigh tig welded job, which is lovely. They don't build bikes any more but you can find them pretty cheap second hand. There's also titanium if you can afford it - but again maybe second hand? If so add
Sabbath and Enigma.

*Dave Yates
*Bob Jackson
TJ Cycles 
Flying Gate
Rourke
Orbit
Woodrup
Cotic
On-One
Roberts
Villiers
Nimbus
Wilson
Hewitt


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## Fab Foodie (13 Sep 2010)

Others for the list...

http://www.enigmabikes.com/edge.html

http://www.robinmathercycles.co.uk/ 

I'm Luggin' it! (Well mostly)


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## zimzum42 (13 Sep 2010)

I've got a British built Bob Jackoson - lovely frame, I've just got to stop myself buying new bits for it all the time!


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## Canrider (13 Sep 2010)

Pearson?

http://www.pearsoncy...3/Pearson_Hanzo

I mention because 1) Steel 2) they state it's 'custom built to specification', 'from the frame up'.

edit: Not so much for Jimmy per se, but for general information.


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## Fab Foodie (14 Sep 2010)

Canrider said:


> Pearson?
> 
> http://www.pearsoncy...3/Pearson_Hanzo
> 
> ...



I used to stand outside the workshop and watch the frames being made in the early 80s. The shop would have about 15 gleaming frames hanging from the ceiling in 531 and 753 tubes. Magic.


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## JimmyTheFish (14 Sep 2010)

More good lines of enquiry...

especially Mather he's making some great shapes on one off projects....looks pricey but very interesting.

lets face it you go to a one off craftsman of that quality and it lifts this bike passion to a whole new level..I'm going to mail the boy

thanks all


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## MacB (14 Sep 2010)

I've had a look at most of these and am drawn to Roberts for steel, mainly because they're in Croydon so not too far from me. Also Justin Burls for titanium, again he's not too far from me and I've also had a couple of chats with him. I'd aim for any high end wheelset to be via Harry Rowland in Kent, I believe he does the wheels for Roberts anyway. For general wheelsets I've been impressed with my handbuilts from Spa Cycles in Harrogate.

The only negative I've seen is around the paint job that Roberts provide - does anyone have any further info on this?


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## John the Monkey (14 Sep 2010)

zimzum42 said:


> I've got a British built Bob Jackoson - lovely frame, I've just got to stop myself buying new bits for it all the time!



There's one I see occasionally locked up near work - beautiful frame.

See an elderly Condor steel track bike from time to time as well.

But my dream bike would definitely be a Mercian.


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## threebikesmcginty (14 Sep 2010)

Another for your list is J F Wilson from Sheffield, still going - http://www.wilsoncycles.co.uk/

I've got a 1978 531c hand-built frame from them which I built up into a rather fine road bike, though I say so myself.

The modern mass produced bikes aren't all bad, lots of the 'big' names make some really good bikes in steel, ti, alu and carbon.


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## colinr (14 Sep 2010)

Feather make some fantastic looking bikes http://feathercycles.blogspot.com/


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## John the Monkey (14 Sep 2010)

colinr said:


> Feather make some fantastic looking bikes http://feathercycles.blogspot.com/



Bloody hell, do they ever - nice link Colin.


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## clarion (14 Sep 2010)

TJ Cycles make the Flying Gate. So they're the same thing.

Pearsons don't make their own frames any more. They do spec good bikes, but sadly don't build frames any more. The frames they do use seem to be the same as the ones Hewitt & Byercycles use. And don't, whatever you do, let Pearson's workshop staff near your bike. Sales staff are helpful and knowledgeable.

Wilsons are one of those institutions that just go on and defy logic. Shops like that closed many years ago, but Wilsons have continued to produce beautiful frames. The owner is a bit of a character.

Orbit sadly don't build frames any more, and it's not clear if they are actually trading at the moment or not. The last few years of their previous existence, they imported frames.

Condor source some of their frames overseas, but I think they do still build some of their steel frames. Not sure.

If you visit Bob Jackson's, I bet you would have ordered a frame before you left.


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## brodie (14 Sep 2010)

> Dave Yates
> Bob Jackson
> TJ Cycles
> Flying Gate
> ...



I'm not sure why Orbit, Cotic, Hewitt and On-One are on this list, they're all mass produced frames made in the far east or elsewhere, not that there's anything wrong or depressing about mass produced frames. OK, Orbit might have actually made frames in the past but they don't anymore, otherwise they would say so on their website.


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## brodie (14 Sep 2010)

> Condor source some of their frames overseas, but I think they do still build some of their steel frames. Not sure.


 Condor are not a framebuilder, they're more of a brand. I would say the vast majority of the frames they sell nowadays are mass produced frames made outside the UK. The do offer custom steel frames but I'm sure they are sub-contracted out to a UK framebuilder.


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## clarion (14 Sep 2010)

brodie said:


> I'm not sure why Orbit, Cotic, Hewitt and On-One are on this list, they're all mass produced frames made in the far east or elsewhere, not that there's anything wrong or depressing about mass produced frames. OK, Orbit might have actually made frames in the past but they don't anymore, otherwise they would say so on their website.



Orbit definitely _did_ hand build frames in the UK in the past. I've got one. Built in Peartree, Dudley in about 1995. And it is beautiful.

The firm moved to Yorkshire, and I don't think they made any more themselves after that point. as I say, I'm not clear on their current status. They put up a new website, but didn't answer emails, and it doesn't seem to have been updated in a while.


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## Rob3rt (14 Sep 2010)

colinr said:


> Feather make some fantastic looking bikes http://feathercycles.blogspot.com/



Was just about to link these guys, they make some sweet rides!


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## Domeo (15 Sep 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> Mercian make really lovely bikes, and I'm sure they build for fixed single.
> 
> You can even use their frame builder app to paint the machine of your dreams...



I've got a custom built Mercian that commute into central London pretty much every day for the last 7 years. The frame cost £600 when I got it so god knows how much it would be now, Have no problems with it at all. 

The wheelset was built up by Harry Rowland with a Phil Wood rear hub and Son dynohub at the front.

If you a going down this route don't expect any change from £1300-£1400.


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## John the Monkey (16 Sep 2010)

Domeo said:


> I've got a custom built Mercian that commute into central London pretty much every day for the last 7 years. The frame cost £600 when I got it so god knows how much it would be now, Have no problems with it at all.
> 
> The wheelset was built up by Harry Rowland with a Phil Wood rear hub and Son dynohub at the front.
> 
> If you a going down this route don't expect any change from £1300-£1400.



Sounds like a lovely bike. My lotto winner/dream bike would be something along those lines.


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## jay clock (16 Sep 2010)

am I alone in not liking the look of the fancy old fashioned styled frames. I see one of these http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/bikes/mercian-avt5.jpg and it makes me think of these http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/00-app1/fakecaravan.jpg


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## CopperBrompton (16 Sep 2010)

colinr said:


> Feather make some fantastic looking bikes http://feathercycles.blogspot.com/


Wow, this one is just gorgeous!


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## clarion (16 Sep 2010)

Wow. Not seen them before. Do they have a website, or just the blog?


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## Mad Doug Biker (16 Sep 2010)

Well, my bike might be mass produced, but at least it isn't a very common mass produced one (I've yet to see another one for example), and it does attract a lot of attention from people, so I'm not fussed by all you snobs on here!  , so mwah mwah!! to you lot!      

Ok, so it's an aerodynamic, streamlined, alluminium and carbon TT bike, but still!


On the other hand, have any of you ever read the book 'It's all about the bike'?? I have just started it, and it's about a guy trying to build his own dream bike with all the parts being hand built in the UK.

He's started with a Rourke frame so far, but as I say, I have only just started to read it, so I may be wrong.


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## clarion (16 Sep 2010)

Yeah, but have you seen the colour he ended up with?  

OK, personally, I'm happy that there are mass-produced frames.

Why's that, Clarion?

I'm glad you asked  

It means there are a lot of people getting into cycling. And the mass production we are seeing now is not so much the BSOs of a few years ago (and, yes, still in ASDA etc), but decent bikes that aren't going to get anyone particularly excited, but are going to hold together enough for someone to have fun riding, and come back to it, rather than stuff a heavy, plasticky, uncomfortable piece of rusting junk to the back of the shed.

All those hybrids that are on the market now. Well, they are not exciting, but they'll do. And, of those riders, most will probably be happy to stay with their bikes, but some will want something a bit more fun, a bit faster, maybe, a bit different.

And they'll start looking at the handbuilt bikes, and keep the artisan trade alive and, hopefully, flourishing.

I started riding properly i nthe eighties, when the cycle industry consisted of struggling companies and shops waiting to close. Now I can see a very different outlook for the future. And, in part, that's because mass production makes servicable bikes within the reach of most people.

My commuter is mass produced. OK, so all my other bikes are hand built, and date back to 1971, but that's another matter.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2010)

Clarion +1.


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## John the Monkey (17 Sep 2010)

clarion said:


> OK, personally, I'm happy that there are mass-produced frames.



well, in a way, I am too - I can't afford a handbuild at the moment (or possibly ever), so I get to ride Steel thanks to the chaps at Surly mass producing bikes like the Long Haul Trucker and Pacer.

But by golly, to ride a Mercian...

/sigh


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## threebikesmcginty (17 Sep 2010)

John the Monkey said:


> But by golly, to ride a Mercian...
> 
> /sigh



Used to see this really old chap when I came home early from work on a Friday and his bike was a Mercian, always saw him on the same stretch of road. Looked like a really old bike, bet he'd had it from new.

He's the kind of rider we'd all probably want to end up like (well me anyway), still riding and probably can all day albeit at a glacier speed.


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## SoloRider (8 Oct 2010)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Used to see this really old chap when I came home early from work on a Friday and his bike was a Mercian, always saw him on the same stretch of road. Looked like a really old bike, bet he'd had it from new.
> 
> He's the kind of rider we'd all probably want to end up like (well me anyway), still riding and probably can all day albeit at a glacier speed.



Why not make that the ambition for the present instead of succumbing to the peer pressure of being a pretend racer? Not aimed at you as this is a trap I often fall into. 

That should be my mantra 'ride like a gnarly old wart'.

Anyway, I agree that whilst there are good vfm frames from the far east, the soul of a bike seems to have been lost along the way. Do you feel better riding a Colnago hand-made in Italy or from Taiwan?

I quite like finding old (or NOS) frames from the nineties and early noughties which were some of the last to be handmade in the country of origin e.g. Italy, USA


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## SoloRider (8 Oct 2010)

I will also add this though.

A lot of the frames mentioned by the OP are actually Taiwanese (Cotic, On-One etc.) but they are good bikes.

I have had a recent Bob Jackson which I sold immediately because it didn't feel right and had to be repainted as the paint was too soft. It was still soft the second time around.

I have had a 'classic' Raleigh Record Ace which was a 27" wheeled bike, but appeared to have 700c forks on - apparently that was common practise in the eighties when they were shifting old frames but with only new forks available.

So I'm not too struck on 'British' as being some kind of kite-mark of quality. Some are good, some are bad.

But there is still the hand-made versus mass produced issue.


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## e-rider (8 Oct 2010)

I had a 1967 Mercian Superlight - it was nice but nothing too special. I find the main difference is attention to detail and finishing quality. 

Modern mass produced frames ride just as well as handbilut frames - and the biggest difference will be in geometry - ie. the one that fits best will feel the best, whether mass produced or handbuilt.

However, getting a nice handbuilt bike does make one feel good as one cruises down the road!


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## Hilldodger (8 Oct 2010)

Lee Cooper has just made us another very nice frame - this one a replica 1895 racing bike.

You'd be suprised how many of the firms listed on this thread use his services


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## Firestorm (8 Oct 2010)

Hetchins used to have a shop near me but it has been a "custom" bike shop dealing an all manner of weird and wonderful machines for some years now.

My Mum used to race an old "curly stay" in the 50's


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## alecstilleyedye (17 Oct 2010)

why not try and source a good old 531 steel, lugged, lightweight frame from a classic british builder (see classic lightweights for ideas) and get it resprayed. provided that the frame isn't too badly rusted and not built up with a load of period components, there's no reason, imho, why a classic old frame could not be resurrected with modern kit. that said, there are folk out there who frown upon the "dreaded fixie conversion", and i can see their point of view to a point.


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