# Building muscle strength?



## Boyfrom64 (19 Feb 2013)

What is the census of opinion on doing additional exercises to build strength in my thigh and calf muscles over and above riding?
I realise that technique has a part to play in increasing my speed as does the increase in my aerobic fitness however, the question going through my mind is that if I build more strength in my calf and thigh muscles, this can only be of benefit. Am I right?


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## Rob3rt (19 Feb 2013)

High absolute strength is of very limited use on the bike, short of full on track sprinting etc.

But if you enjoy it, then why not.


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## MrB1obby (19 Feb 2013)

I would expect so personally, but I don't know much. 

Squats (do bodyweight at first so you don't injure yourself), deadlift, calf raises are all good for legs and can be done at home with improvisation.


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## vickster (19 Feb 2013)

But get a trainer to show you how to do these properly so you don't knacker your knees and other body parts!


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## Licramite (19 Feb 2013)

I do 30 squats every morning whilst shaveing
and hit the turbo for at least an hour a week (normally 2 or 3)
- which ain't much but I'm old an knckered.-
work on your leg muscles and getting your weight to a fighting weight can only be a bonus.
I think its a matter of getting your body used to a daily level of exercise.

I do pressups to strengthen my arms as you need arm strength to support you, especially when your out the saddle , so doing arm weights wouldn't go amiss.
After some rides my arms are killing me more than my legs.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (19 Feb 2013)

Just quads and calves? If you wanna look like a T-rex thats your call. 

The benefits to aerobic sport are few.


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## Ningishzidda (19 Feb 2013)

The quads, calves and glutes are only useful if the antagonistic muscles are trained in equality. If you desire to climb a steep hill, you will need some ‘low end torque’. This is achieved by pulling as well as pushing, and will get you more than using bodyweight alone.


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## Andrew_Culture (19 Feb 2013)

Licramite said:


> I do 30 squats every morning whilst shaveing


 
I was going to post a photo of someone with shaving cuts, but the google image search made me feel giddy.


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## ayceejay (19 Feb 2013)

"I do 30 squats every morning whilst shaving"
Am I safe in assuming that you use a cordless shaver as I wouldn't want our OP to try this with an open razor. 

This question regarding leg strength does crop up periodically and we have yet to arrive at a definitive answer.
In this case however when the question appears to be: will adding strength and muscle to my legs increase my speed on the bike, the answer is probably no. More intense work on the bike (via a proper training plan) will no doubt serve you better.


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## User6179 (19 Feb 2013)

Has black n yellow been banned ?


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## Licramite (19 Feb 2013)

- No pain no gain -
a good way of building up your legs is to wear 5lb ankle weights on each leg - all day - it builds up the muscle in a even way as you use all the muscles. instead of just hitting one group. (we used to go running in them - killer)

I can't see how building up your leg muscles can't improve your speed and power as long as its built into a stamina regime as well (I don't just mean muscle pumping)
If your used to picking up 40Lb wieghts you will do it longer than someone who ain't, if your used to pushing a peddle with say a resistance of 20lds your going to burn out long after some one who isn't (I have no idea what the Ld resistance on pedals going up a 25% hill is - its just an example)

But of course coupled with proper tecnique would save a lot of had work and give better results.


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## PK99 (19 Feb 2013)

Boyfrom64 said:


> What is the census of opinion on doing additional exercises to build strength in my thigh and calf muscles over and above riding?
> I realise that technique has a part to play in increasing my speed as does the increase in my aerobic fitness however, the question going through my mind is that if I build more strength in my calf and thigh muscles, this can only be of benefit. Am I right?


 
Over the winter i have done very little on the bike because of the weather, but have done a reasonable amount in the gym: 20 in sessions on a spin bike or 30 on a Concept 2 rowing machine for the cardio stuff, with some leg benefit, plus loads on a variety of leg machines both for cycling and skiing: Calf press, adductor and abductor, leg press (in endurance mode, knees at around 90 degrees extend to 120 degrees: 3 sets of 100 @ 100kg effect is like the old ski exercise of "sittng" against the wall.)

Plus i lost a stone on the 5:2 diet.

I got on the bike last week for my first ride of the year other than a few hours on the towpath and found my climbing is better than *ever* it has been in the past: faster, easier longer, higher gears- no granny ring!!- and 10bpm lower heart rate on Ranmore and Box Hill.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (19 Feb 2013)

PK99 said:


> Over the winter i have done very little on the bike because of the weather, but have done a reasonable amount in the gym:* 20 in sessions on a spin bike or 30 on a Concept 2 rowing machine for the cardio stuff,* with some leg benefit, plus loads on a variety of leg machines both for cycling and skiing: Calf press, adductor and abductor, leg press (in endurance mode, knees at around 90 degrees extend to 120 degrees: 3 sets of 100 @ 100kg effect is like the old ski exercise of "sittng" against the wall.)
> 
> *Plus i lost a stone on the 5:2 diet.*
> 
> I got on the bike last week for my first ride of the year other than a few hours on the towpath and found my climbing is better than *ever* it has been in the past: faster, easier longer, higher gears- no granny ring!!- and 10bpm lower heart rate on Ranmore and Box Hill.


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## amaferanga (19 Feb 2013)

Licramite said:


> I can't see how building up your leg muscles can't improve your speed and power as long as its built into a stamina regime as well (I don't just mean muscle pumping)


 
Well the funny thing is though that's there's not much (any?) research to show that building up your leg muscles through weights does make you a better cyclist, but if someone does what you suggest (i.e. weights to increase muscle mass AND proper training on the bike) then they'll likely get faster and claim it's because they lifted a few weights.

Train properly on the bike and you'll see gains that you'd never see from squats or any other weights you want to lift. Unfortunately there are no short-cuts in cycling and for your moderately trained / unfit cyclist it's riding and training they need, not bigger muscles.


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## Boyfrom64 (19 Feb 2013)

Well it looks like I opened up an old can of worm however, I am grateful for all the replies.
As far as a training plan to help me increase my speed and endurance it appears this the way to go. If anyone has any suggestions they will be greatly received.


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## montage (19 Feb 2013)

Boyfrom64 said:


> Well it looks like I opened up an old can of worm however, I am grateful for all the replies.
> As far as a training plan to help me increase my speed and endurance it appears this the way to go. If anyone has any suggestions they will be greatly received.


 
The jury is still out there on this, anecdotally and scientifically.
My views are that time is better spent cycling rather than lifting weights. If you have an extra hour a day, better to spend it pedaling than squatting. Weights mess with rides the next day as you need to recover a bit. If you are going to do weights, strengthening the core has showed to be beneficial - so this should be your focus. Weights have other health benefits - injury prevention etc, so can be beneficial in that factor.

If you plan to add weight training to what you currently do, then as long as you can plan it well with rest days etc, then go for it. Can't really hurt. Much depends on your aims. If you are planning on racing, I wouldn't be near weights right now with the season soon approaching.


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## Boyfrom64 (19 Feb 2013)

Montage, i have no plan to go racing, firstly because I am to old and secondly I have only been cycling for two years since I had to stop running due to problems with the knee on my left leg.
The reason I raised the question in the first instance is that I want to be able to increase my speed and overall endurance. I can comfortably ride for 40 miles but ultimately I want to do a century ride and secondly I should like to be quicker than a couple of buddies who I ride with and who are heavier than me but quicker than me.


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## Sittingduck (19 Feb 2013)

I would spend your time on the bike doing longer rides and pushing faster speeds, rather than doing weights. Are they quicker uphill too or just on the flatter stuff?


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## Berties (19 Feb 2013)

Time spent in the saddle will increase your anaerobic fitness and interval riding and hills will improve speed and fitness,I spent my earlier days in the gym in a big way,and now am happy with just riding and running,and concentrate on my flexability ,I use a biomechanics expert to coach me and keep a eye on my results,I get tight quads and load my muscles to stretch them,but it has improved my overall flexability and recovery ,just a thought to me flexability is as important as larger muscles!


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## Ningishzidda (19 Feb 2013)

There's a 100 Audax looming on March 10th from Lichfield. Its to Stonehurst Farm in Mountsorrel and back.
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/13-965/


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## Ningishzidda (19 Feb 2013)

Or maybe this,
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/events/details/85472/The-Rawlinson-Bracket


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## Boyfrom64 (19 Feb 2013)

Hi Sittingduck, the answer is both although the hills is where they have the biggest advantage, but I need to clarify that a little further.
My two riding partners ride compact doubles and I ride a triple. One of the issues I have on hills is that I am in between gears - I will either have to drop down to the granny cog on the front chainset with the 4th cog on the rear cassette or I stay in the middle chainring on the front and the 3rd cog on the rear cassette. I have already had a chat about this with my LBS and when the bike goes in to be serviced in the next couple of weeks they are going to have a look at my set up and advise on what set up I can change to going forward to solve the problem.


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## Boyfrom64 (19 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda, thanks for the suggestions, I will take a look at the details and see if my riding buddies fancy entering as well.


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## Sittingduck (19 Feb 2013)

I see 
Gear ratios and stuff like that can be a bit of a faff to get right, for your personal needs. It will require some experimentation and research but you'll get it setup just right, in the end 
RE: the bigboys being even quicker on the hills - this is somewhat unusual. Typically the larger rider will suffer on the climbs but dominate on the downhills. Not always this way though and I can say with certainty that cycling fitness will make a massive difference, in particular to climbing. You will improve, as time goes on (assuming you continue to cycle and try to improve)!


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## Hacienda71 (20 Feb 2013)

Re your triple, it should give you more options than their compacts. I have a triple and a compact, the triple gives you the benefit of a standard double with a granny gear to get you home if required. The compact does neither well, leaving you with a big jump down to the small ring meaning you need to double shift on the rear at the same time to compensate. 
To catch them on the hills improve your aerobic fitness by riding more hills, relax riding up them and weighing less than them will mean you have an added advantage.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (20 Feb 2013)

Berties said:


> *Time spent in the saddle will increase your anaerobic fitness* and interval riding and hills will improve speed and fitness,I spent my earlier days in the gym in a big way,and now am happy with just riding and running,and concentrate on my flexability ,I use a biomechanics expert to coach me and keep a eye on my results,I get tight quads and load my muscles to stretch them,but it has improved my overall flexability and recovery ,just a thought to me flexability is as important as larger muscles!


Care to elaborate on this? Generally the exact opposite is true.



montage said:


> The jury is still out there on this, anecdotally and scientifically.
> My views are that time is better spent cycling rather than lifting weights. If you have an extra hour a day, better to spend it pedaling than squatting. Weights mess with rides the next day as you need to recover a bit. If you are going to do weights, strengthening the core has showed to be beneficial - so this should be your focus. Weights have other health benefits - injury prevention etc, so can be beneficial in that factor.
> 
> If you plan to add weight training to what you currently do, then as long as you can plan it well with rest days etc, then go for it. Can't really hurt. Much depends on your aims. If you are planning on racing, I wouldn't be near weights right now with the season soon approaching.


The science is there, yet so is the anecdote. The latter always seems to be argued to the death more than the former though. There is no harm with weight training, but don't do it for massive cycling gains, really because there are few to be had. Heart and lungs are the important bit, those aren't stressed very much(if at all) during anaerobic weight training.


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## Ningishzidda (20 Feb 2013)

Boyfrom64 said:


> Ningishzidda, thanks for the suggestions, I will take a look at the details and see if my riding buddies fancy entering as well.


 
No, No, No. If your quest is to show your buddies who's fast, don't show them how you train.


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## Arsen Gere (20 Feb 2013)

Boyfrom64 said:


> Montage, i have no plan to go racing, firstly because I am to old and secondly I have only been cycling for two years since I had to stop running due to problems with the knee on my left leg.
> .


 
Too old ? What's that. There were blokes racing in Eilat earlier last year in the 75-79 category. http://www.triathlon.org/results/event/2012_eilat_etu_triathlon_european_championships 

I'm a believer in weights but I'm not willing to get involved in the debate, damn I just have.


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## spock (20 Feb 2013)

i think there a case on both fronts ,do weights or dont do weights ,,which ever helps YOU is the best answer ,,i do em and they help me end of


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## Ningishzidda (20 Feb 2013)

The big problem with doing weights for cycling, is you might become a Chris Hoy lookie-likey.

And who wants that !


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## amaferanga (20 Feb 2013)

spock said:


> i think there a case on both fronts ,do weights or dont do weights ,,which ever helps YOU is the best answer ,,i do em and they help me end of


 
How do you know they help? Claims like this is what misleads people.


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## Ningishzidda (20 Feb 2013)

If you do weights, how much faster would you be if you didn't?
if you didn't do weights, how much faster would you be if you did?


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## Ningishzidda (21 Feb 2013)

In an interview for Men’s Fitness magazine, Bradley Wiggins releases some information on how he trains with weights.
He says he does sets of 50 reps with 10 kg on the stack.
I tried this last night. Judging by how it felt, I think there are some words edited out of Bradley’s statement.
‘Alternate’ before ‘leg press’ would be more apt; and ‘plus bodyweight’ might be another couple of missing words.


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## Boyfrom64 (21 Feb 2013)

The big problem with doing weights for cycling, is you might become a Chris Hoy lookie-likey.

No disrespect to Chris Hoy but I have no desire to look like him and being totally honest I have never been one for going to the gym and pushing weights to build large muscles.
I think the simple answer is that I need to build and improve my aerobic fitness.

Hacienda 71 I can understand your comments about the triple should offer me more options however, I agree with Sittingduck about getting the ratio's right.

Last but not least I think I need to bow my head in shame Ningishzidda you certainly have a point about my age, perhaps I just need to take a more positive attitude and put myself on the line by giving it a go.

Thanks all for your feedback.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

amaferanga said:


> How do you know they help? Claims like this is what misleads people.


Dan Martin has recently said he does less miles on the bike than many pro riders but spends more time in the gym working his legs than most. He says in the end it evens itself out and works well for him. 

To be clear i do not do weights for cycling. I have my own methods for building strength, speed and endurance. I think it works for me. If someone said to me that by doing weights i could become a more complete cyclist, i would respectfully decline. I wouldn't claim weights are not effective in cycling. That's just not proven. In fact the amount of elite racers and pro's who lift weights would point to the opposite.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> If you do weights, how much faster would you be if you didn't?
> if you didn't do weights, how much faster would you be if you did?


Both methods are proven in the world of cycling. I also think a common misconception about doing weights is that you will end up with huge heavy muscles.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Feb 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Both methods are proven in the world of cycling. I also think a common misconception about doing weights is that you will end up with huge heavy muscles.


I'll rephase his question

If I go to the gym and squat/leg press 100kg 10 x for 5 sets. How much faster will that make me directly?

If I don't go to the gym,instead training specifically by riding a bike- how much faster would going to the gym make me?


Neither of these questions will be answerable.



ps: these are long but very much worth viewing if you keep in mind that the comparision is anaerobic vs aerobic.


View: http://youtu.be/nhDH6QDDVvo


View: http://youtu.be/wo4ljwmtqbw


View: http://youtu.be/lKeR_As6E2U


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> I'll rephase his question
> 
> If I go to the gym and squat/leg press 100kg 10 x for 5 sets. How much faster will that make me directly?
> 
> ...


Of course it is impossible to quantify but i hear this argument of weight training in cycling often. End of the day it works for some and might not for others. It is for the individual to try and decide based on their own experience. Some on here have no doubt been told weight training will help no end and others it is pointless. IMO both are incorrect. We, as cyclists, can only offer our opinion. 
It is often stated on here that weight training will offer no gain in terms of cycling. This is not 100% accurate and for that reason i think it is slightly misleading to make such claims. It is also wrong for someone to suggest that weights is the best or only way to increase leg strength.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Feb 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Of course it is impossible to quantify but i hear this argument of weight training in cycling often.


And it'll continue for decades probably.



> End of the day it works for some and might not for others. It is for the individual to try and decide based on their own experience.


That's part of the issue. "Doing X works for me" is anecdotal. A lot of the people who claim weights helped their cycling also admit to increasing their mileage. It's probably not hard to see where the real gains come from.



> Some on here have no doubt been told weight training will help no end and others it is pointless.


 


> IMO both are incorrect. We, as cyclists, can only offer our opinion.


We can also research, and think for ourselves instead of swallowing everything pros print in books and mag editors send to print.



> It is often stated on here that weight training will offer no gain in terms of cycling. This is not 100% accurate and for that reason i think it is slightly misleading to make such claims. It is also wrong for someone to suggest that weights is the best or only way to increase leg strength.


There are always some to rely for various reasons on gym work,prescribed or otherwise. When you look at how and when different muscle fibre types are recruited, how they adapt to stimulation, the energy systems they use, their inherent blood flow, their speed of fatigue. The science alone weighs heavily on strength training having very little effect upon aerobic cycling. The exceptions generally limit themselves to sprinters or track racers,two examples where explosive but limited anaerobic efforts reign.


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## Boyfrom64 (21 Feb 2013)

So the bottom line do what you feel is best for you


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> And it'll continue for decades probably.
> 
> That's part of the issue. "Doing X works for me" is anecdotal. A lot of the people who claim weights helped their cycling also admit to increasing their mileage. It's probably not hard to see where the real gains come from.
> 
> ...


Magazines, papers, books - sure those are a source. Lets discount them then assuming they misquote or mislead. 

Another is the cyclist him/herself. The pro, elite racer or even keen amateur. The cycling coach or the team trainer. 
Point being that all of these positions may tell you that weight training is beneficial for some types of cycling. Perhaps for extra explosiveness in a climb or that sprint at the end of a race. Maybe it is to raise ones power to weight ratio. 
Whatever the reason, some of the best riders in the world do weights. Some of the best cycling coaches in the world tell their riders to do weights. Now you could assume that they have done some research in to the matter and that is one of the reasons they are at the top of their game. Team Sky leave no stone unturned and several of their riders are on weight specific training. 

What i disagree with entirely is the 'what works for one works for all' idea that is sometimes put across. Exactly the same with dieting. Sure there is a starting point that will serve you well but after that it's up to the individual to discover what does and doesn't work for them.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

Boyfrom64 said:


> So the bottom line do what you feel is best for you


Precisely. You just have to realise that it might take a while to figure out what has the best results for you.


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

One should not put too much stock in what pro's or elite riders are doing with their time.


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## Sittingduck (21 Feb 2013)

Bleeergh, it's all a load of old Horlicks anyway, ain't it?! 

Not just the stuff in this thread, I might add... I'm talking about life, in general. Do whatever you feel like!!


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Bleeergh, it's all a load of old Horlicks anyway, ain't it?!
> 
> Not just the stuff in this thread, I might add... I'm talking about life, in general. Do whatever you feel like!!


 
Could do with a Horlicks!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (21 Feb 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Magazines, papers, books - sure those are a source. Lets discount them then assuming they misquote or mislead.
> 
> Another is the cyclist him/herself. The pro, elite racer or even keen amateur. The cycling coach or the team trainer.
> Point being that all of these positions may tell you that weight training is beneficial for some types of cycling. Perhaps for extra explosiveness in a climb or that sprint at the end of a race. Maybe it is to raise ones power to weight ratio.
> ...


You're heading down an anecdotal route there slightly. Don't you think if there was truly a gain to be had, they would all be doing it and not a few? I'd surmise that the pros who aren't track sprinters/sprinters are probably in gyms for rehab/prevention over gains.


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## Boyfrom64 (21 Feb 2013)

Right now my intention is to get out and ride more whilst keeping a note of my performance on each ride to see what gains I get and how quickly or not they take to achieve. Then in 3 months time I will take stock of what my performance is at that time, which may result in me doing some weight training on my legs or I may just continue doing what I have been doing.
I think the important point is, that I have base level to start analysing my performance from and then to measure against this in 3 months time to see what improvements I have gained.


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

How long have you been cycling? It may have been stated in this thread, but I haven't seen it.


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## Boyfrom64 (21 Feb 2013)

Two years although the first 6 months were hit and miss due to work, which i'm sure for most of us gets in the way from time to time.
Generally I try to ride 2 - 3 times a week


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## Hacienda71 (21 Feb 2013)

Do you do intervals?


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

With a couple of years experience, you are probably okay to do some higher intensity bike work, intervals as Chris says. Don't go bonkers though, ease yourself into it.


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## Boyfrom64 (21 Feb 2013)

No but it is something I have been reading up on since starting this thread and making the decision to not go down the weight training route.
Would I be right in thinking this is something you do or have done yourself Hacienda?
Do you have any recommendations to try?


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

I would suggest you add a sweet spot session and a medium duration tempo session to your current riding. Once you have got a good base, you can then move into proper threshold work and higher VO2 max sessions etc. Do not underestimate the difficulty of a proper tempo session, it feels easy at the start, but some way in, you will need considerable presence of mind to keep it going. Sweet spot sessions are very good in terms of return for the time invested, the recovery time is relatively quick but you will increase FTP.


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## Boyfrom64 (21 Feb 2013)

Do I need to get a heart rate monitor?


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

It might help you to gauge effort, but you can do without. You can estimate intensity other ways, very simple one, a tempo ride, you would be able to say 2-3 words at a time, not be able to speak freely, but you won't be gasping for air either. If you can talk freely, you need to STFU and pedal harder.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> You're heading down an anecdotal route there slightly. Don't you think if there was truly a gain to be had, they would all be doing it and not a few? I'd surmise that the pros who aren't track sprinters/sprinters are probably in gyms for rehab/prevention over gains.


Dude you know as well as i do that many cycling coaches and high level racers use weights as part of their training. Not a minority. It is merely a way of acutely working certain muscles that may need strengthening. Going out on the bike may not be the quickest way to achieve that. Core muscles, for example, do not directly lead to cycling performance but play a large part in body balance and overall power. Core muscles cannot be trained, as effectively, purely by riding your bike. Core muscle work is the ONLY work i do, though it is not free weight related in my case.

Cycling alone is not, in every case, the only way to better your cycling performance.

Much the same as footballers and dribbling, runners and running, tennis players playing tennis, rugby players playing rugby, swimmers swimming and so on and so forth. 
Most will do more than just their selected sport to better performance.


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## Hacienda71 (21 Feb 2013)

Find a hill local to you that you know you can cycle up without blowing up, but will push you a bit. Probably no more than half a mile long. Cycle up it, not flat out and then roll back down it, do this four times. As you get fitter you can vary the types of intervals you do which will improve your cycling. As Robert says you need to vary your training with tempo rides and just increasing your mileage, all of which will help your fitness which in turn will result in better climbing and higher speeds. Honest


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> One should not put too much stock in what pro's or elite riders are doing with their time.


Curious so i must ask. Why do you say that?


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

Because they are professional/elite athletes and perform at that level, thus have already achieved a substantial degree of physical and mental development so have different needs to less accomplished and developed athletes. You should train in a way that addresses your needs, not in a way that is developed to address someone else's needs.


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> Because they are professional/elite athletes and perform at that level, thus have already achieved a substantial degree of physical and mental development so have different needs to less accomplished and developed athletes.


It may also have been one of the reason they got where they are. They were once mere mortals too! No cyclist has ever been great without hard training.


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> It may also have been one of the reason they got where they are. They were once mere mortals too! No cyclist has ever been great without hard training.


 
I am not talking about weight training here btw, I am talking generally. I am also not saying one shouldn't work hard. I am saying you should train in a way that addresses your needs at the current time, not in a way that addresses the needs of someone else (like an elite athlete) at a particular point in their timeline.

I am also not saying we can not learn from them, but you should contextualise and evaluate it in your own predicament. You shouldn't assume, " -insert pros name- is doing this, so it must be good, ill do that too".


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## Pedrosanchezo (21 Feb 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> I am not talking about weight training here btw, I am talking generally. I am also not saying one shouldn't work hard. I am saying you should train in a way that addresses your needs at the current time, not in a way that addresses the needs of someone else (like an elite athlete) at a particular point in their timeline.


Could not agree more. My point was merely to show that weight training may work for some. I used several pro's as reference. 
The individual and circumstance are what defines ones requirements.


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## Creakyknee (21 Feb 2013)

Rob3rt said:


> I would suggest you add a sweet spot session and a medium duration tempo session to your current riding.


 
What is a sweet spot session ?


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

It is essentially the overlap area between tempo and threshold work (high tempo/low threshold). It requires less time than tempo work, but also less recovery than threshold work, thus it can be repeated with increased frequency. It is called the sweet spot, because it is the most time efficient training intensity for raising your FTP.

You can train in the sweet spot in the same format as typical threshold training, i.e. blocks of 20 mins with a rest in between, but I prefer to ride one block of 45-60 minutes.


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## 400bhp (21 Feb 2013)

Good here innit


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## 400bhp (21 Feb 2013)

It's not all about physical too. If doing weights means it makes you feel better and or it means you get motivated to ride more or enjoy it more that do it.


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## Rob3rt (21 Feb 2013)

400bhp said:


> Good here innit


 
It's okay when you have nowhere better to be I suppose


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## 400bhp (21 Feb 2013)

I should be out weight training


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (22 Feb 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Could not agree more. My point was merely to show that weight training may work for some. I used several pro's as reference.
> The individual and circumstance are what defines ones requirements.


Well no.You can't show that it "may work" because nobody can quantify how it "may" do so. No matter how many pro names you throw in, you still won't do it. What you have been able to show is that some pros use the gym, but not to what degree,why or indeed how much on the bike specific training they also do.

You're probably looking past rehab/prevention still. "A pro does it" really doesn't support itself or suggest anything.


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## Ningishzidda (22 Feb 2013)

I think it was Loughborough University, a place of dubious repute, who conducted a study into this very argument.
A group of students rode bikes and didn’t do weights. A pre-determined road route was devised and they rode it every two days.
A group of students trained with weights and rode a pre-determined session on a gym bike.
A group of students trained with weights and rode the bikes on the road ‘two weeks about’.
Results were based on a cycle ergometer measuring ultimate power and FTP.

The students who rode the bikes improved. The students who did weights improved better and the third group, guess what, improved in steps following the weights fortnight.

I now train with weights in conjunction with road mileage.

I describe Loughborough University as a place of dubious repute because the dept of Automotive Engineering categorically stated a motor car CANNOT accelerate from 0 – 100 mph in less than 1 second. The Dept Professor was invited to Santa Pod Raceway, and subsequently burned his students’ dissertation.


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## Ningishzidda (22 Feb 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Well no.You can't show that it "may work" because nobody can quantify how it "may" do so. No matter how many pro names you throw in, you still won't do it. What you have been able to show is that some pros use the gym, but not to what degree,why or indeed how much on the bike specific training they also do.
> 
> You're probably looking past rehab/prevention still. "A pro does it" really doesn't support itself or suggest anything.


 
The point here is a point of Human physiology. The cyclist has to ascertain his/her ratio of muscle tissue type. Armed with this information, he/she then specialises in a particular discipline where he/she can excell. ( Its done from DNA analysis and/or intrusive biopsy ).
For the likes of us who can't or won't cough up the several thousand quid for a pukka analysis, its a 'trial or error' situation where one's improvement is measured following a 'do, do-not' training regime. This could take a few years.
It is not healthy for a nine year old to push weights, so the 'do, do-not' regime is started at about age thirteen.


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## Pedrosanchezo (22 Feb 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Well no.You can't show that it "may work" because nobody can quantify how it "may" do so. No matter how many pro names you throw in, you still won't do it. What you have been able to show is that some pros use the gym, but not to what degree,why or indeed how much on the bike specific training they also do.
> 
> You're probably looking past rehab/prevention still. "A pro does it" really doesn't support itself or suggest anything.


I wasn't going into specifics as i had no intention in it becoming a debate. I am not saying because a pro does it then others should. I am saying that some cyclists who are much fitter, stronger and faster than you and i, incorporate weights into their training. This in itself is reason enough to take notice. That's the simplistic version of what i am saying.

Regarding the time they spend, it varies. Ivan Basso uses weights and low cadence sessions (40rpm) to increase climbing power. He says it is about 10% of his training. Dan Martin says about 15% of his training.
Many cycling coaches incorporate weights into their programs. Top level, elite and amateur.

I don't believe we are claiming that all of these people, and there are many experts involved here, are wrong to include weight sessions into a cyclists training??

Just because something can't be quantified, doesn't mean it can't be measured. It is without a doubt part of the cycling scene. I find it hard to believe that you find it's significance immeasurable.

I understand your opinion and as i have said before i don't utilise weights into my training. The reasons are two fold. I personally don't think i recover as quick after weight training and i find it much easier/convenient to jump on my bike rather than travel to, and pay for, the gym.
​


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## Ningishzidda (22 Feb 2013)

The secret of my success.
Drive to gym, take bike out of car and ride 14 miles to work.
Ride from work to gym and do weights. Drive home and eat meat.


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## Boyfrom64 (22 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda, I like your simplicity , it makes it all seem so easy, when we all know this is not the case.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (22 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> The point here is a point of Human physiology. The cyclist has to ascertain his/her ratio of muscle tissue type. Armed with this information, he/she then specialises in a particular discipline where he/she can excell. ( Its done from DNA analysis and/or intrusive biopsy ).
> For the likes of us who can't or won't cough up the several thousand quid for a pukka analysis, its a 'trial or error' situation where one's improvement is measured following a 'do, do-not' training regime. This could take a few years.
> It is not healthy for a nine year old to push weights, so the 'do, do-not' regime is started at about age thirteen.


Relevant but slightly different subject.



Pedrosanchezo said:


> I wasn't going into specifics as i had no intention in it becoming a debate. I am not saying because a pro does it then others should. I am saying that some cyclists who are much fitter, stronger and faster than you and i, incorporate weights into their training. This in itself is reason enough to take notice. That's the simplistic version of what i am saying.


Debate is good, it drives ideas and thinking.

There are fitter and faster cyclists than us, they may also be stronger(muscular). Yet the odds of their muscular strength being the difference are very slim. As you have said, they are fitter and faster which generally means some adaptation, aerobically. If you want to make gains to equal or best those fitter/faster riders - the gains are ultimately going to be within your heart,lungs and growth/adaptation of type1 fibres.



> Regarding the time they spend, it varies. Ivan Basso uses weights and low cadence sessions (40rpm) to increase climbing power. He says it is about 10% of his training. Dan Martin says about 15% of his training.
> Many cycling coaches incorporate weights into their programs. Top level, elite and amateur.


That's perfectly fine of course, their use of the gym isn't an issue but the reason why is. They could be there in the off-season - they could be there for rehab - they could be there for preventative measures - they could be there for gain(perhaps placebo) In training, forcing your body to constantly adapt is the key to gain. That could well be increasing your average speed thus a higher demand on your CV system - adding 10kg onto a leg press or Rory McIlroy hitting 1000balls off the tee instead of 500

But without asking Ivan or Dan, we probably won't know which one it is.. I do agree FWIW, whether it is a gain, a placebo or just an old school coach. There is something in it, not quite sure what that is - but I just can't see (looking from how muscle fibre works) that there is anything to gain from anaerobic training - for aerobic sport.

(I'm doing something I hate) Wiggo stated in A year in yellow he went to the gym and everyone jumped on the "wiggo said it, lets get memberships bandwagon" They totally missed his TDF '11 crash where he broke his collarbone. His gym use was largely core and shoulder based as two areas that would suffer greatly during Dr ordered time off, and two areas of importance to an Olympic TT champ.



> I don't believe we are claiming that all of these people, and there are many experts involved here, are wrong to include weight sessions into a cyclists training??


There is nothing wrong with weight training. But I do have issue with the "pros do it" anecdote(I am not suggesting you are saying this) that often drives these kind of threads. It can almost always be stated that unless you have a diagnosed imbalance/issue/niggle to work out, training of any sort is best done specifically. Whether that is boules,cycling,tennis,swimming.



> Just because something can't be quantified, doesn't mean it can't be measured. It is without a doubt part of the cycling scene. I find it hard to believe that you find it's significance immeasurable.


If it can be measured, the test is probably very expensive.



> I understand your opinion and as i have said before i don't utilise weights into my training. The reasons are two fold. I personally don't think i recover as quick after weight training and i find it much easier/convenient to jump on my bike rather than travel to, and pay for, the gym.
> ​


And I yours. I'm not an advocate of weight training with a view to cycling specific gain. But if looking good in speedos on the beach is your cup of tea, carry on.


ps: off to ride me bike. Specific training you know


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## chqshaitan (22 Feb 2013)

I have been watching this thread with interest as i have recently got back into cycling after spending 3 years in the gym with a personal trainer for 2 hours a week. so thought i would give me view on the benefits / downsides of weight training in the gym on cycling.

Just to clarify that my definition of weight training for legs is to add bulk not tone up, as you can do that on a (stationary) bike far better than lifting some weights.

Where i see the extra strength in your legs coming into its own is if you need a quick burst of speed, ie when you set off. Having really strong legs (different from toned) generally would give you no benefit and depending on the size of your legs, could actually be a detriment, as every extra pound of weight in muscle means that you have to put just that bit more of effort into each turn of the wheel to continue at a steady pace as someone who is not as muscular. Nevermind on hills where the effort becomes significantly more.

With cycling your body requires a really efficient cv system. I know a lot of really massive guys at the gym who could lift very heavy weights, but are out of breath when they get to the top of a single flight of stairs.

So like most things in life, its about all things in moderation. Its no good having a really muscular body if you do not work your cv system.

If i was starting off in a gym now to complement my cycling, I would use the various modes on the bikes/cross trainer to give yourself a good and varied workout, and also do some light weights by high no of reps for upper body toning in conjunction with core workouts, as this will do more for your outdoor cycling than lifting weights alone.

All of this heavily depends on your current level of fitness and muscle tone so each to their own.

my 2 p


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## JoeyB (22 Feb 2013)

I do weights because I enjoy it, if it has an effect on cycling - good or bad - then I'll live with it lol


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## chqshaitan (22 Feb 2013)

i could'nt agree more, end of the day, we all have day jobs, families and other commitments.

Cycling is just something we do for fun, so we will never get to the level of a pro as real life gets in the way.

I am still going to do weights just so dont loose the tone/muscle i have built up over the years, and i appreciate that this will have a negative effect on my cycling, but its a compromise i am willing to make.


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## Ningishzidda (22 Feb 2013)

I do weights because I have a club TT championship to defend.


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## PK99 (22 Feb 2013)

Boyfrom64 said:


> Right now my intention is to get out and ride more *whilst keeping a note of my performance on each ride* to see what gains I get and how quickly or not they take to achieve. Then in 3 months time I will take stock of what my performance is at that time, which may result in me doing some weight training on my legs or I may just continue doing what I have been doing.
> I think the important point is, that I have base level to start analysing my performance from and then to measure against this in 3 months time to see what improvements I have gained.


 
but don't take much notice of ride to ride variations, there are too many non controllable variables. Long term changes are the best measure - there area couple of hills that used to be 165+bpm that now cruise up at 150bpm. That short climb close to home used to be a killer, now I hardly notice it.


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## Ningishzidda (22 Feb 2013)

Ningishzidda said:


> I do weights because I have a club TT championship to defend.


I'll rephrase that.
"I will continue a lifelong weights programme because I have a club TT championship title to defend."


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## Pedrosanchezo (22 Feb 2013)

Just back from a ride. 2 hours 45mins, 45 miles and 4000t+ of climbing. 
On the final climb i bonked. Down into the granny gear. I should know much better as i didn't take any food with me. Just an energy drink. I should be eating hourly but sometimes forget. 

Good session though. Mixture of Cat3 and Cat4 hills, all done at low cadence. Around 50-70rpm.


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## montage (22 Feb 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> It may also have been one of the reason they got where they are. They were once mere mortals too! No cyclist has ever been great without hard training.


 
Many of them would have been faster than 95% of this forum the first time they rode a bike. Think Cav talking about how he used to ride a bmx bike when young then said "if I get a road bike I can win these races" - he was given a road bike and lapped the field. Michael Hutchinson rode a short 23 minute TT or something like that in his first race, wearing baggy shorts on an old bike. He couldn't understand why everyone was so slow. Turns out he has freakishly big lungs.


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## Pedrosanchezo (22 Feb 2013)

montage said:


> Many of them would have been faster than 95% of this forum the first time they rode a bike. Think Cav talking about how he used to ride a bmx bike when young then said "if I get a road bike I can win these races" - he was given a road bike and lapped the field. Michael Hutchinson rode a short 23 minute TT or something like that in his first race, wearing baggy shorts on an old bike. He couldn't understand why everyone was so slow. Turns out he has freakishly big lungs.


True some of these guys are very gifted naturally but they are racing against similarly gifted people. Kind of evens out the field and marginal gains in training will mean everything.


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## Mo1959 (22 Feb 2013)

montage said:


> Turns out he has freakishly big lungs.


 
Could do with some of them........my breathing lets me down before my legs get tired


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## spock (22 Feb 2013)

amaferanga said:


> How do you know they help? Claims like this is what misleads people.


 its people like you who dont read posts,and just reply for the sake of a row that make me dislike forums where in my posts do i say that lifting helps others and im out mislead others ,,i know that they help me for reasons i wont go into ,i dont advise others either way ,,,,, ive followed a few of your bullish replys and they neither impress nor intimidate me ,dont know which you were trying to do ,, but it didnt ,,,,,,, with all your so called knowledge i suggest you become a pt for cycling your a natural ,,,,


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## Rob3rt (23 Feb 2013)

spock said:


> its people like you who dont read posts,and just reply for the sake of a row that make me dislike forums where in my posts do i say that lifting helps others and im out mislead others ,,i know that they help me for reasons i wont go into ,i dont advise others either way ,,,,, ive followed a few of your bullish replys and they neither impress nor intimidate me ,dont know which you were trying to do ,, but it didnt ,,,,,,, with all your so called knowledge i suggest you become a pt for cycling your a natural ,,,,


 
He had a valid point.


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## Hacienda71 (23 Feb 2013)

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/giving-advice.123087/


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## spock (23 Feb 2013)




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## Scoosh (23 Feb 2013)

<Mod hat firmly ON>

Stop the pettiness - now.

Read this, act upon it - or face a thread ban. It's very simple really !


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## amaferanga (24 Feb 2013)

spock said:


> its people like you who dont read posts,and just reply for the sake of a row that make me dislike forums where in my posts do i say that lifting helps others and im out mislead others ,,i know that they help me for reasons i wont go into ,i dont advise others either way ,,,,, ive followed a few of your bullish replys and they neither impress nor intimidate me ,dont know which you were trying to do ,, but it didnt ,,,,,,, with all your so called knowledge i suggest you become a pt for cycling your a natural ,,,,


 
It was a question, no more no less (and certainly not an attempt to intimidate you). The simple fact is that very few people that make claims regarding how good their training is can actually back it up. It's anecdotal and in the grand scheme of things, completely meaningless. I'll leave it there as I don't want to attract the wrath of the mods by derailing a thread through a petty argument, but having looked at the advice in that link I'm not sure what you're getting all upset about.


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