# A return to rim brakes and surprised how poor they are



## Ridgeway (14 Mar 2021)

Not ridden on rim brakes for around 5yrs or so, since then all my bikes have been disc, 1 cable and 2 hydraulic. Certainly have had some disc brake challenges and overall they can at times be a pain but overall i've been happy with then on my road and CX bikes. However i've just rebuilt an insurance salvaged rim brake road bike and have ridden it quite a few times now and i'm shocked at how poor the brakes are vs the discs i've become accustomed to:

Brakes need much more pressure to be applied on the callipers 
In the dry my stopping distance (same speed, same conditions, same road) increases by about 25-35%
In the wet they much more affected 
They are very quiet, easy to take wheels on and off and are less sensitive to the "buggeration" factor, but as far as do they stop me they are less effective vs discs, no two ways about it.

These are good brakes (Campag Super Record) that are well adjusted and with good and well worn in brake pads being used on alloy wheels so no carbon shenanigans going on.

I guess i'll have to get used to pulling the brakes on earlier and as this is going to be my summer climbing bike it needs descent brakes as what goes up, must come down, preferably in a controlled way

I have some new carbon hoops arriving for the bike any day so i can only see things getting worse, but hopefully as they are supposed to have a good brake track and paired up with some Swisstop pads i do hope they'll "work"

So far i can only say that's like jumping in a car with crap brakes when you're used to driving your own with good brakes, you adapt but you always know that your braking is poor.

This is just my experience but i thought it worth noting as i hear so many people defending rim brake over discs saying that as long as they can lock up your back wheel then they can stop you as well as discs and rim brakes look nicer (i agree) plus discs can be a pain (i agree). But can they stop you as well, in this recent experience for me = no.


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## gzoom (14 Mar 2021)

I have no issues with dual pivot Ultegra rim brakes on my road bike. In the dry they are as good as the hydraulic disc brakes on my eBike.

In the wet disc brakes in my eBike are much better.


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## HMS_Dave (14 Mar 2021)

I have disc brakes on my fat bike. 160mm ones. It was second hand and they needed a lot of truing to stop them catching the pads. But since then I've had little issues with them other than occasional normal caliper adjustment...


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## Smokin Joe (14 Mar 2021)

My only experience with disc brakes has been on a recumbent trike. When I went back to two wheels and caliper brakes I was surprised just how poor they felt, taking more effort to bring the 9Kg machine to a halt than was required by the discs to stop the trike which weighed twice as much. I never had to use more than two fingers on the levers for the disc which led to much better feel and control.

I have no idea how discs would compare with direct mount calipers (Which do look like they transmit power more easily), but whatever the problems with disc brakes they will surely be ironed out in time and be as little fuss as they are on their motorised cousins.


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## Ridgeway (14 Mar 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> My only experience with disc brakes has been on a recumbent trike. When I went back to two wheels and caliper brakes I was surprised just how poor they felt, taking more effort to bring the 9Kg machine to a halt than was required by the discs to stop the trike which weighed twice as much. I never had to use more than two fingers on the levers for the disc which led to much better feel and control.
> 
> I have no idea how discs would compare with direct mount calipers (Which do look like they transmit power more easily), but whatever the problems with disc brakes they will surely be ironed out in time and the as little fuss as they are on their motorised cousins,



This was also my comparison ie light 2 finger braking = full stoppage with discs that i'd used where as the rim brakes didn't stop me in as short a distance and that was with a full hand (4 fingers) applying much more pressure.


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## itboffin (14 Mar 2021)

Dual pivot campag super record brakes have more stopping power than my discs in fact too much so that I did an endo on a descent a few years back, that’s not something I’d recommend


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## Drago (14 Mar 2021)

Learn to set them up properly. I can endo on my road bike on rim brakes, and they haul me up very smartly in all conditions, and I'm a very heavy rider.

Sure, not terribly refined, wear problems, all the rest of it, but in terms of actual grunt they can be extremely effective. None of my hydro disc bikes can pull me up as hard.

Lets face it, there are plenty of sheet discs systems out there, even hydro ones. Theres a spectrum, and while hydro disc systems tend to be towards the upper end they don't have a monopoly and don't exclusively occupy those rarified heights of performance.


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## itboffin (14 Mar 2021)

Drago said:


> Learn to set them up properly. I can endo on my road bike on rim brakes, and they haul me up very smartly in all conditions, and I'm a very heaby rider.
> 
> Sure, not terribly refined, wear problems, all the rest of it, but in terms of actual grunt they can be extremely effective. None of my hydro disc bikes can pull me up as hard.



yeah sub 6kg bike with brakes like that need very careful modulation although I’ve swapped out the groupset for R8000 ultegra


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## Kajjal (14 Mar 2021)

My other mountain bike a 1996 Orange c16r stored with relatives abroad has xt v brakes and 3 x 8 gearing. Taking it into the mountains nearby the gearing means it will climb up walls. The brakes take a little adjustment to compared to good quality disc brakes but are perfectly rideable. The most obvious difference is the reduction in braking power and control. As a 100KG bronzed, ripped Adonis of mountain biking only real brakes will stop me properly as I power through the trails 

It is the same on my gravel bike, good quality hydraulic disc brakes stop me faster with more control compared to the previous bikes ultegra on or off road. In the end just use what suits you and get out on the road or trails. And think yourself lucky you don’t have very early 1990’s mountain bike brakes which had little effect on steep, Rocky downhills


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## gzoom (14 Mar 2021)

Disc brakes doesn't appear to offer any performance advantage in the dry on a road bike. Though the latest hydraulic disc brakes road bikes are under 7kgs and some under 6kgs, so if there is no weight penalty why not have better wet performance? 


View: https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4


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## Eziemnaik (14 Mar 2021)

It has been a long time since the last rim vs hrd thread. List of things I am looking forward to seeing here:
-riding without discs is guaranteed highway to hell
-riding with cable discs is guaranteed highway to hell
-HRD discs are overkill for road bikes
-discs are just a way for greedy companies to suck our money away
-back in my days I used to stop my bike with two fingers, while carrying me Grama and weekly shopping
-my rim brake wheels were continuosly exploding untill I changed to disc
-ever since the purchase of the disc brake bike neighbors' dog stopped chasing me, I got a payrise, my sexlife has never been so good and I lost 17kg


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## Ridgeway (14 Mar 2021)

itboffin said:


> Dual pivot campag super record brakes have more stopping power than my discs in fact too much so that I did an endo on a descent a few years back, that’s not something I’d recommend



I think that's a good example, the endo is the front wheel equivalent to a rear wheel lock up and my point is that from the experience i've had the discs would have done the same but about 20-25m earlier, perhaps more.


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## chris-suffolk (14 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Not ridden on rim brakes for around 5yrs or so, since then all my bikes have been disc, 1 cable and 2 hydraulic. Certainly have had some disc brake challenges and overall they can at times be a pain but overall i've been happy with then on my road and CX bikes. However i've just rebuilt an insurance salvaged rim brake road bike and have ridden it quite a few times now and i'm shocked at how poor the brakes are vs the discs i've become accustomed to:
> 
> Brakes need much more pressure to be applied on the callipers
> In the dry my stopping distance (same speed, same conditions, same road) increases by about 25-35%
> ...



What pads are you using? Some are a lot better than others wet or dry!


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## Ridgeway (14 Mar 2021)

Drago said:


> Learn to set them up properly. I can endo on my road bike on rim brakes, and they haul me up very smartly in all conditions, and I'm a very heavy rider.
> 
> Sure, not terribly refined, wear problems, all the rest of it, but in terms of actual grunt they can be extremely effective. None of my hydro disc bikes can pull me up as hard.
> 
> Lets face it, there are plenty of sheet discs systems out there, even hydro ones. Theres a spectrum, and while hydro disc systems tend to be towards the upper end they don't have a monopoly and don't exclusively occupy those rarified heights of performance.



I believe they are correctly set up:

Pads used (not new) and are only say 25% worn, decent set of SRAM pads
Callipers well centred 
Wheels are alloy, super true and have good brake tracks
Cables are new on both front and rear
I'll try to compare to them to a ride buddy once the club kicks off again, maybe there is something not right and that they could indeed stop as well as discs but i have something set up wrong


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## Ridgeway (14 Mar 2021)

chris-suffolk said:


> What pads are you using? Some are a lot better than others wet or dry!



SRAM


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## Ridgeway (14 Mar 2021)

chris-suffolk said:


> What pads are you using? Some are a lot better than others wet or dry!



Another acid test will be the new wheels and new pads (Swisstop) in a week or 2


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## Gunk (14 Mar 2021)

All my road bikes have rim brakes but my MTB has hydraulic disk brakes (Sram Level TLM) and in comparison they are amazing, really powerful compared with rim brakes.


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## roley poley (14 Mar 2021)

The splosh of your rim braked wheels through a mud filled puddle ..the scuffing scrubbing sound of a grinding paste being formed as the levers are squeezed always makes me wince ...but if you keep their contact surfaces clean and adjusted they are fine ....shame they wear your rims down though


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## Gunk (14 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Another acid test will be the new wheels and new pads (Swisstop) in a week or 2



I’ve just fitted some SwissStop shoes and I’ve been impressed with them. A big improvement over basic Shimano pads.


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## PapaZita (14 Mar 2021)

I‘ve one bike with DA 9000 rim brakes (Kool Stop Salmon, Stan‘s rims), and another with SRAM Red HRD discs. In the wet there’s no doubt that the discs are better (initial bite, modulation, lack of grindy noises). In the dry they’re much closer, and I think I marginally prefer the rim brakes. They need a little more force at the lever, but have a bite and positive feel that inspires confidence. 

Ultimately, stopping distance should be limited by tyres and centre of gravity. In the dry, either set of brakes is more than good enough that the underlying technology is not the limiting factor. People talk of locking wheels, endos, etc. These are generally bad things, and it’s possible that the light action and modulation of disc brakes allow such perilous situations to be more easily avoided. However, one also needs some feedback to know when to modulate. The SRAM hydraulic brakes have rather dead feeling levers, whereas I believe the rim brakes allow me to feel what’s going on with my finger tips. I prefer that.


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## mjr (15 Mar 2021)

gzoom said:


> Disc brakes doesn't appear to offer any performance advantage in the dry on a road bike. Though the latest hydraulic disc brakes road bikes are under 7kgs and some under 6kgs, so if there is no weight penalty why not have better wet performance?
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/t0hKMgUEku4



Because fiddlier setup, more difficult diagnostics, slower wheel changes and that infernal metallic whine any time they get shoot on the pads, which is pretty much every wet ride in England.


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## mjr (15 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> I believe they are correctly set up:
> 
> Pads used (not new) and are only say 25% worn, decent set of SRAM pads
> Callipers well centred
> ...


I don't remember anyone ever recommending SRAM pads. Chains yes. I didn't even know they made caliper pads.

Lovely about the centering and fresh cable, but how far from the rim are the pads and are the levers compatible with the caliper?


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## Ridgeway (15 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> I don't remember anyone ever recommending SRAM pads. Chains yes. I didn't even know they made caliper pads.
> 
> Lovely about the centering and fresh cable, but how far from the rim are the pads and are the levers compatible with the caliper?



They callipers and levers are the same, Campag SR. The pads are set at approx 2mm from the rims so as soon as you touch the lever you get some braking.

Maybe you've hit on a good point about the SRAM pads and perhaps some others would perform better, it's clear that most here seem to be getting good stopping with their rim brake set up. Having gone through my set up and thinking it should perform well it was that surprise when i came to a stop and realised i needed another 20-25m vs my other bike. I'll see how it changes when i swap over rims and pads very soon


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## rogerzilla (15 Mar 2021)

I only have two bikes that sometimes feel underbraked. The tourer, which can be hard to stop in the wet with a full load on (cantilevers) and my commuting fixie, again in the wet (long-reach centrepull, front only). None of the others could use any more power.


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## Blue Hills (15 Mar 2021)

I find Cantis quite often problematical, especially with a big load.
V brakes just fine and dandy - all the stopping I need - only for flat bars though.
There are things called miniVs for drop bar bikes I think but I have no experience of them.


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## Drago (15 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> I believe they are correctly set up:
> 
> Pads used (not new) and are only say 25% worn, decent set of SRAM pads
> Callipers well centred
> ...


Clearly something isn't optimum if theyre not pulling you up very sharply.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Because fiddlier setup, more difficult diagnostics, slower wheel changes and that infernal metallic whine any time they get shoot on the pads, which is pretty much every wet ride in England.



I don’t know where you get slower wheel changes from. You drop the wheel in and out like a good un rather than needing to undo a QR brake release like with rim brakes. You also don’t get that horrible grinding noise of rim brakes.


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> I find Cantis quite often problematical, especially with a big load.
> V brakes just fine and dandy - all the stopping I need - only for flat bars though.
> There are things called miniVs for drop bar bikes I think but I have no experience of them.



Mini V's are the work of the devil, a lazy compromise for those that can't set up Canti's, but want fat tyres on a drop bar bike. They can be a bit of fiddle to set up, I accept that, but are great once you understand how to get it right.

Canti brakes (and road calipers) have better mechanical advantage than V brakes, not that V-brakes aren't fine for MTBs etc where the speeds are lower.
Direct pull V brakes came about because of the difficulty of fitting Canti's to suspension forks, they made a very good compromise, almost as effective, easier to set up and got around the suspension issue, and the issue of needed a "safety catcher" for the old style canti's to prevent the yoke cable snagging the tyre if the main cable snapped.

A good modern Canti is a thing of beauty, the yoke cable issue has been solved, they have a greater mud clearance for CX / offroad stuff than mini and regular V's. The other criticism aimed at canti's - fork judder - is easily solved by using an up hanger off the fork bridge rather than a stem mount of old.


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I don’t know where you get slower wheel changes from. You drop the wheel in and out like a good un rather than needing to undo a QR brake release like with rim brakes. You also don’t get that horrible grinding noise of rim brakes.


You have to undo a thru axle which takes longer that a QR. Team cars now seem to prefer a full bike change and sort out the wheel at their leisure, rather than undo a Thu axle at the side of the road. 

The bigger issue for Pro's is the neutral service bike doesn't carry disc wheels despite the majority of pro teams now using them. I've seen a few inopportune punctures cost time and are chances of (stage or outright) wins for guys running discs, where a quick wheel change off the service bike would have allowed them to stay in the breakaway group.


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## FrankCrank (15 Mar 2021)

Who needs brakes anyway - all they do is slow you down


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## fossyant (15 Mar 2021)

You've obviously got some crap brakes then. Change the pads as a minimum. I'm even using old Single pivot (OK Dura Ace and Shimano 600) but they stop on a sixpence, and I'm only using clarkes pads.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> You have to undo a thru axle which takes longer that a QR. Team cars now seem to prefer a full bike change and sort out the wheel at their leisure, rather than undo a Thu axle at the side of the road.



Not all disc brakes are thru axle. QR disc brake wheels are quicker to take out and put back than rim brakes.


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## Eziemnaik (15 Mar 2021)

Yeah, but not a single team is using qr


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Not all disc brakes are thru axle. QR disc brake wheels are quicker to take out and put back than rim brakes.


*There are no teams at all in the pro-peloton running QR disc brakes*, which is what the post you've selectively quoted from was about. Frames produced for QR disc brakes were a relatively short lived thing (I know i've got one on a gravel bike) before the Thru axle was "invented" and became standard (although there are different standards of TA which is another thing stopping a universal solution on the service bike).

I'd be very surprised if you can link to a bike on sale today that has disc brakes and QR skewers......

OP I'd defo change brake pads, something is wrong.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Mar 2021)

Also not every thru axle standard or thread is equal.. The industry slipped


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## Teamfixed (15 Mar 2021)

Call me a luddite but discs just look wrong and in the words of CB during last years TDF ... "disc brakes are trying to solve a problem that does not exist"


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> *There are no teams at all in the pro-peloton running QR disc brakes*, which is what the post you've selectively quoted from was about. Frames produced for QR disc brakes were a relatively short lived thing (I know i've got one on a gravel bike) before the Thru axle was "invented" and became standard (although there are different standards of TA which is another thing stopping a universal solution on the service bike).
> 
> I'd be very surprised if you can link to a bike on sale today that has disc brakes and QR skewers......
> 
> OP I'd defo change brake pads, something is wrong.



Where did pro teams suddenly come in to it? They have about as much relevance to the everyday as F1 does to changing wheels on a car.


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Where did pro teams suddenly come in to it? They have about as much relevance to the everyday as F1 does to changing wheels on a car.


err that's what was being referred to in my post and others.... I'm not sure if you are being deliberately pedantic, or just don't read posts before replying. I agree speed of wheel change is only an issue in pro cycling, hence the discussion, where disc brakes are causing a real issue , due to speed of change and differing TA standard between manufacturers.

you also see to contradict yourself:


Ming the Merciless said:


> You drop the wheel in and out like a good un rather than needing to undo a QR brake release like with rim brakes. You also don’t get that horrible grinding noise of rim brakes.





Ming the Merciless said:


> Not all disc brakes are thru axle. QR disc brake wheels are quicker to take out and put back than rim brakes.


you seem to have found a bike that has disc brakes and neither QR or TA's but is very quick to change wheel.  I'd contact a few pro teams immediately, you could make a quick buck...


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## rogerzilla (15 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Where did pro teams suddenly come in to it? They have about as much relevance to the everyday as F1 does to changing wheels on a car.


Because, as well as selling chemicals, Israel, cooker hoods and bathroom fittings, they are there to sell bike gear.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> err that's what was being referred to in my post and others.... I'm not sure if you are being deliberately pedantic, or just don't read posts before replying. I agree speed of wheel change is only an issue in pro cycling, hence the discussion, where disc brakes are causing a real issue , due to speed of change and differing TA standard between manufacturers.
> 
> you also see to contradict yourself:
> 
> ...



Eh, I specifically said a QR disc brake wheel. Dropping out the wheel and putting it back is quicker than a rim brakes wheel. The experiences of pros in a race with team mechanics and cars are not relevant to your or my experience out in the road.

You clearly do not know what a QR brake release is, which is not the QR that goes through the axle.


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## roubaixtuesday (15 Mar 2021)

Teamfixed said:


> Call me a luddite but discs just look wrong



Discs are fugly is an undeniable truth (takes cover behind sofa).

Otherwise, is it acceptable to say that modern disc and rim brakes are both very good and there are pros and cons either way?

Personally I'd prefer rims on a day bike, could go either way on a commuter but probably discs, and discs on a MTB. 

And there are other brakes too - I would not have anything other than a drum brake as third brake on the tandem.


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## PapaZita (15 Mar 2021)

It’s interesting that all three Grand Tours last year were won on rim brakes. Despite that, and despite my previously stated slight preference for rim brakes, if I were wanting to ride carbon rims down mountains, possibly in the rain, I’d choose disc brakes in a flash.

I’m not convinced that CF is a good material for rims, but people seem to like it. Rim brakes on carbon braking surfaces is a recipe for disaster. I suspect that has been a major driver for disc brake adoption amongst pro teams.


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> One day, if my bike gets nicked, I'll consider replacing it with one with discs. But as my frame won't take discs it's a subject I can remain aloof from. In the meantime, my rim brakes stop me just fine  And they eat my rims


Sadly, the way its going is that trying to buy a decent road bike with rim brakes is getting harder and harder. In the dry weather I prefer my rim braked road bike (s). in the wet, the disc are more reliable but disc aren't noiseless in the wet, they grate as a much as rims when they get splashed with road grit and debris, except its only wearing down a cheaper rotor rather than an expensive wheel.. 

That said a rim isn't that expensive, if using handbuilt wheels rather than stock factory stuff with fancy spokes, then replacing a rim onto an existing hub, isnt too much of an expense. but with fancy carbon wheels, whether will alu or carbon braking surface, then I can see the attraction of disc brakes.


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## MrGrumpy (15 Mar 2021)

swiss stop pads on my rim braked bike and I have no issues stopping in the dry, very smartish! In the wet a different matter but you just have to allow for that. Even worse is carbon rims in the wet !


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## DCBassman (15 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> They are very quiet, easy to take wheels on and off and are less sensitive to the "buggeration" factor, but as far as do they stop me they are less effective vs discs, no two ways about it.


I improved my rim brakes by 50% just by taking the wheels off and giving the rims and pads a good going-over with IPA (no, not the beer...). Surprised how big it difference it made and continues to make. At the time, I'd also a hydraulic disc-ed mtb to play with, and there really wasn't a lot in it.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

Seems like a lot of faff when with disc brakes you won't ever need to replace the rims.


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## PapaZita (15 Mar 2021)

I’m never sure whether making a vital structural part of the bicycle also a wear item was extremely foolish, or, a genius bit of lightweight design. 😁


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## matticus (15 Mar 2021)

PapaZita said:


> I’m never sure whether making a vital structural part of the bicycle also a wear item was extremely foolish, or, a genius bit of lightweight design. 😁


DIsc pads are pretty vital, no? I've observed several people forced to replace those mid-ride - never seen it with rim-brakes. (and getting The Right pads for a rim-brake at a high street shop is a loooot easier than with disks, I can tell you ... ) 

Then there's the_ thru-axle compatibility tango,_ have we mentioned that yet?

It all balances out in the long run.


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## matticus (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Sadly, the way its going is that trying to buy a decent road bike with rim brakes is getting harder and harder



Just wait until everyone is on discs. You can bet that rim-brakes will be The! New! Must! Have! Thing!


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## Eziemnaik (15 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Just wait until everyone is on discs. You can bet that rim-brakes will be The! New! Must! Have! Thing!


Unlikely.
They will go the way of friction shifters, threaded headsets, 36 spoke lightweight rims etc. Will continue to be produced for the lower market, maybe the likes of VeloOrange and Paul's will provide better quality equipment...


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## Teamfixed (15 Mar 2021)

Friction shifters? Mine are ratchet


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## matticus (15 Mar 2021)

Eziemnaik said:


> Unlikely.
> They will go the way of friction shifters, threaded headsets, 36 spoke lightweight rims etc.


And single chain-rings??
Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it .... but actually, if you gave me long enough odds ...


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> It's not actually really a lot of faff or expense. A pair of wheels built maybe every three* years or so.
> 
> * Number pulled out of the air. Could well be more.


Indeed, particularly when re using a quality hub, the actual cost of the spokes (you probably go with new but could reuse) rim and building it isn't actually that much. Particularly compared to disc calipers that have a limited life and rotors and pads being more expensive and quicker wearing than pads for rim brakes. 

I might have convinced myself to go that route when my rim brake wheels, which are still going strong after 5 years of summer use) do need replacing (I have had new bearings on the rear).


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## Eziemnaik (15 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> And single chain-rings??
> Yeah, I wouldn't bet on it .... but actually, if you gave me long enough odds ...


Only had to wait 40 years for them to reappear


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## mjr (15 Mar 2021)

Teamfixed said:


> Call me a luddite but discs just look wrong and in the words of CB during last years TDF ... "disc brakes are trying to solve a problem that does not exist"


But as usual, CB won't put his money where his mouth is and disc brakes bikes are sold with his name on.



T4tomo said:


> I agree speed of wheel change is only an issue in pro cycling, hence the discussion, where disc brakes are causing a real issue , due to speed of change and differing TA standard between manufacturers.


Says someone who's never needed to repair a puncture quickly in cold cold rain.

Also, neutral service does now carry disc wheels, but only for one standard rotor and axle combination so I've yet to spot it being used. Bike swaps remain more common.



Dogtrousers said:


> This is true. I haven't done the sums and my record keeping isn't good enough anyway, but I generally feel that it's OK to treat rims as consumables. Not very consumable, but consumable in the long term. But as you note, my opinion might be different if I used fancier rims.


I've replaced more wheels due to crocked hubs than worn rims — but only just.


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## mjr (15 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I don’t know where you get slower wheel changes from.


Watching people.



Ming the Merciless said:


> You drop the wheel in and out like a good un rather than needing to undo a QR brake release like with rim brakes.


Firstly, a QR brake release is a small lever, so hardly a lengthy step.

Secondly, I see from later posts that you assume a simple QR disc wheel, but the vast majority I've seen have been "thru axle".

And thirdly, do disc brakes no longer need a spacer inserting when the wheel is removed to avoid farking up if someone breathes on the brake lever?



Ming the Merciless said:


> You also don’t get that horrible grinding noise of rim brakes.


No, you get the horrible grinding noise of disc brakes, which is a far more annoying whistle or shing-shing-shing-shing... and grit can often be cleared from the rim brake with a squirt of water from a bidon but I'm told that's a no-no with discs that can result in the hot rotor warping.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (15 Mar 2021)

Some doth protest too much


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## gcogger (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> *There are no teams at all in the pro-peloton running QR disc brakes*, which is what the post you've selectively quoted from was about. Frames produced for QR disc brakes were a relatively short lived thing (I know i've got one on a gravel bike) before the Thru axle was "invented" and became standard (although there are different standards of TA which is another thing stopping a universal solution on the service bike).
> 
> *I'd be very surprised if you can link to a bike on sale today that has disc brakes and QR skewers......*


Not trying to make any particular point, but my bike is like that:
Trek FX3


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Says someone who's never needed to repair a puncture quickly in cold cold rain.


My point was mjr, speed of the _"wheel change"_ part of the process was only applicable for Pro cycling. 

I.e that comparing the few seconds to remove (and replace) a rim brake wheel with QR skewer (not forgetting the micro second to undo the brake quick release) or the marginally longer (but still short) time to unscrew (and replace) a Thru axle, is neither here nor there compared with the time for tyre removal fixing the puncture / replacing the inner tube and replacing the tyre. For Pro riders its everything as they just swap the wheel over, 
For recreational riders, that difference is insignificant as the rest of the process will take much longer.


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## matticus (15 Mar 2021)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Some doth protest too much


Did they create a new thread on a well-worn* subject?

*god I'm good.


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## mjr (15 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Did they create a new thread on a well-worn* subject?
> 
> *god I'm good.


Please, stop padding the thread out. Let us have a quick release.


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## T4tomo (15 Mar 2021)

gcogger said:


> Not trying to make any particular point, but my bike is like that:
> Trek FX3


Fair dos  you got me!
still be a minority though and rarer than hens teeth on high end road bikes, which was what I was discussing at the time


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## matticus (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> ... still be a minority though and rarer than hens teeth on high end road bikes, which was what I was discussing at the time


You don't buy your bikes _off the shelf_ do you?

It seems some people don't care _what _they ride <tut>


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## mjr (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> For recreational riders, that difference is insignificant as the rest of the process will take much longer.


For transport riders, the difference is minor, but it's yet another minor nuisance that can easily be avoided with a less finicky brake system.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Watching people.
> 
> 
> Firstly, a QR brake release is a small lever, so hardly a lengthy step.
> ...



erm no, I’m speaking from experience so QR disc brake it is. As to grinding noise experienced it many times with rim brakes but not with disc. Plus I’ve experienced how slow rim brake wheels can be to get out and back in.

Which QR disc brakes did you have that took ages to get out and back in and squealed like a pig?


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Did they create a new thread on a well-worn* subject?
> 
> *god I'm good.



Don’t you mean a very tyred subject? 😂


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Give me a brake.



You'd have some leverage with that


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## Eziemnaik (15 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Please, stop padding the thread out. Let us have a quick release.


It all laughs untill someone losses a lease on their flat


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

The rim brakes have been applied but they have failed to stop this thread.


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## Smokin Joe (15 Mar 2021)

It has certainly drummed up some replies.


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## matticus (15 Mar 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> It has certainly drummed up some replies.


Oh I say!!!


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Mar 2021)

Quick, release me from it


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## roubaixtuesday (15 Mar 2021)

Rim brakes work best in dry climates.

In Alicanti, just for instance.

I'll get my coat.


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## itboffin (15 Mar 2021)

I rode my mechanical disc bike today and whilst braking is okay it’s not as good as dual pivot rim brakes with swissstop pads and million miles from my hydro disc bikes


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## itboffin (15 Mar 2021)

My front brake on that bike now has an interesting hum which I quite like


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## Gunk (15 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> A good modern Canti is a thing of beauty



I agree!


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## davelincs (16 Mar 2021)

I must say I still prefer rim over disc , I have always had bikes with rim brakes and probably just Used to them, I have a winter bike with Ultegra hydraulic discs , and let’s say I would not buy another bike with discs


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## Blue Hills (16 Mar 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Seems like a lot of faff when with disc brakes you won't ever need to replace the rims.


rims don't just go because of rims wearing down though do they?
I have a Mavic that needs rebuilding because the spokehole/eyelet went - still plenty of life in the braking surface.
edited for typo/illiteracy/sloppiness.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Mar 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> rims don't just go because of rims wearing down though do they?
> I have a Mavic that needs rebuilding because the spokehole/eyelet went - still plenty of life in the breaking surface.



There is your problem right there. It has a breaking surface rather than a braking surface.😂


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## mjr (16 Mar 2021)

Gunk said:


> I agree!
> 
> View attachment 578847


Looks like a farking spaniel. Should shape the arms into aerofoils for lift.


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## T4tomo (17 Mar 2021)

Gunk said:


> I agree!
> 
> View attachment 578847


Old ones and moderns ones right back at you Gunk. The Peugeot could do with a clean I think, looking at that 🤔


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## contadino (17 Mar 2021)

Eziemnaik said:


> It has been a long time since the last rim vs hrd thread. List of things I am looking forward to seeing here:
> -riding without discs is guaranteed highway to hell
> -riding with cable discs is guaranteed highway to hell
> -HRD discs are overkill for road bikes
> ...



"After a day with old rim brakes in the Peaks I had forearms like Popeye.."

"... and my hands were so tired I couldn't hold a pen"


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## Ridgeway (17 Mar 2021)

Swapped over rims today and added the new pads. On initial feel they seem to have instantaneous stopping power (not ridden yet) so hopefully it was just a poor set up previously, having said that the pads i took off were in fact Swissstop, just branded as SRAM.






Weekend weather looks crap but hopefully we get out and dodge the snow.


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## mjr (18 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Swapped over rims today and added the new pads. On initial feel they seem to have instantaneous stopping power (not ridden yet) so hopefully it was just a poor set up previously, having said that the pads i took off were in fact Swissstop, just branded as SRAM.
> 
> View attachment 579140
> 
> ...


I think those shoes are on the wrong sides and braking will try to push the pads out, arrested only by the tiny bolt. Check and fix if needed. Chain spotted by others.


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## T4tomo (18 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> I think those shoes are on the wrong sides and braking will try to push the pads out, arrested only by the tiny bolt. Check and fix if needed.


only if (s)he's travelling backwards . That's the rear wheel pictured, you can see the chain...


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## mjr (18 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> only if (s)he's travelling backwards . That's the rear wheel pictured, you can see the chain...


Not with my eyesight, I couldn't! Pinarello brand the back of the rear bridge? Nobbers.

As you were.


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## houblon (18 Mar 2021)

Personally I agree that it's a solution for a non-problem. I have discs on my mtbs and they were the solution to two very real problems (rim destruction by grinding paste and lack of forearm strength). But dual pivot Dura Ace or Chorus rim brakes have never let me down in the rain or elsewhere, and my Mavic Reflex Ceramic rims have lasted longer than I can remember. Which is probably why they stopped making them. 

Each to his own. I don't like that *The Industry *appears to be quietly deciding that rim brakes are obsolete, though. If I want to add a kg to my bike I'll fill my water bottles. Wonder what will happen when the technically illiterate UCI drop the pointless weight limit...


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## fossyant (18 Mar 2021)

Disc brakes don't look as nice as these.


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## T4tomo (18 Mar 2021)

fossyant said:


> Disc brakes don't look as nice as these.
> 
> View attachment 579190


indeed - and full marks for cleanliness & shininess too!


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## fossyant (18 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> indeed - and full marks for cleanliness & shininess too!



It had just had a full respray and strip down !


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## Gunk (18 Mar 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Swapped over rims today and added the new pads. On initial feel they seem to have instantaneous stopping power (not ridden yet) so hopefully it was just a poor set up previously, having said that the pads i took off were in fact Swissstop, just branded as SRAM.
> 
> View attachment 579140
> 
> ...



They have been fitted the wrong way around


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## Ridgeway (18 Mar 2021)

fossyant said:


> It had just had a full respray and strip down !



That's just cheating  but in a nice way


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## Ridgeway (18 Mar 2021)

Gunk said:


> They have been fitted the wrong way around



Not for the direction i ride


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## houblon (18 Mar 2021)

Gunk said:


> They have been fitted the wrong way around


no, that's the rear wheel. You can see the chain.


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## Colin Grigson (19 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> Pinarello brand the back of the rear bridge? *Nobbers.*


Why’s that ?


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## mjr (19 Mar 2021)

Colin Grigson said:


> Why’s that ?


It helps people mistake it for the head tube in photos...

I was looking at the brakes, not for soft-focus chains in the background, OK?


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## T4tomo (19 Mar 2021)

Are we sure pinarello are the nobbers here?


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## matticus (19 Mar 2021)

mjr said:


> It helps people mistake it for the head tube in photos...
> 
> I was looking at the brakes, not for soft-focus chains in the background, OK?


And the chain-stays.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Mar 2021)

Are these rim brakes still dragging on but the thread refuses to stop?


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## Ridgeway (21 Mar 2021)

So some quick feedback after a bit of a test run this morning. Keeping in mind these are new pads and new rims so i expect a bit of bedding in. Much better than the previous set up once they settled and wore in so there were fully flat on the braking surface face, you can still feel some compression (i assume cables and pads) but very minimal and overall performed well. I expect them to improve over the next ride or 2. Still not as instant as the discs i've been used to much a marked improvement vs previous experience


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## Johnno260 (21 Mar 2021)

I find my rim 105 R7000 to stop me nicely if needs be, and that bikes only used in the dry.

My Ribble with campag rim brakes in the wet stops really well.

Disc brakes are ok, my Spyres were really good, but both BB type brakes I had were just awful I hated them and they wailed like a banshee with the slightest piece of dirt.


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## jowwy (22 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Fair dos  you got me!
> still be a minority though and rarer than hens teeth on high end road bikes, which was what I was discussing at the time


both my Ebikes are hydraulic disc brakes and QR skewers.......they arent that rare


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## T4tomo (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> both my Ebikes are hydraulic disc brakes and QR skewers.......they aren't that rare


obviously more common than I thought on lower end frames


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## jowwy (22 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> obviously more common than I thought on lower end frames


cube ebikes are not lower end mate..........but bike snobs may think so


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## Ridgeway (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> both my Ebikes are hydraulic disc brakes and QR skewers.......they arent that rare



Same here on Mrs Ridgeways CUBE ebike


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## T4tomo (22 Mar 2021)

The fish are biting this morning


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## jowwy (22 Mar 2021)

i wonder if my Custom Built titanium disc would be classed as a low end frame by the snobs, cause it had QR dropouts and not through axles.......or are they just trolling again rather than adding anything to threads existence and usefulness


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## si_c (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> i wonder if my Custom Built titanium disc would be classed as a low end frame by the snobs, cause it had QR dropouts and not through axles.......or are they just trolling again rather than adding anything to threads existence and usefulness


Both of the disc braked road bikes I've had have been QR, including the current Racelight, I've had no problems with the QR, certainly easier to get the wheel on and off than a through axle. Aside from consistent rotor alignment at the front I can't see any advantages to the latter.


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> obviously more common than I thought on lower end frames



Nah you’ll find it’s rim brakes supplied on lower end frames.😂


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## T4tomo (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> i wonder if my Custom Built titanium disc would be classed as a low end frame by the snobs, cause it had QR dropouts and not through axles.......or are they just trolling again rather than adding anything to threads existence and usefulness


Ah bless a double bite.

Joking aside, whilst there has been period when QR dropouts and disc brakes was standard, I thought (and i've yet to see much evidence to the contrary) that the vast majority of *new* frames being sold now for Disc brakes are Thru Axles (although not a universal standard of thru axles annoyingly, but that's big bike brands for you)

My gravel bike has disc brakes & QR dropouts, and its a relatively low end aluminium jobby from Pinnacle. but then it is from "that" period before TA's were dreamt up (as does my rarely ridden old MTB for that matter)

@Ming - its very difficult to find a *new *road bike frame with calliper mounts at all, be that high end or bog standard. I'm glad I've got one that should last me many years to come.


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## matticus (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> i wonder if my Custom Built titanium disc would be classed as a low end frame by the snobs, cause it had QR dropouts and not through axles.......or are they just trolling again rather than adding anything to threads existence and usefulness


I guess if it was custom, you had the choice to go as cheap as you like!


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## Smokin Joe (22 Mar 2021)

I've never used direct mount brakes, but I'd be interested to hear how they compare to traditional calipers.


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## si_c (22 Mar 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> I've never used direct mount brakes, but I'd be interested to hear how they compare to traditional calipers.



Slightly better than regular calipers - the arms pivot about fixed points rather than floating which means they feel as though they bite quicker and you have slightly more control over how much of your lever pull translates into braking activity. They're much closer to disc brakes in how they perform than my experience with centre mounted dual pivots, although this is on good quality alloy rims I wouldn't want to comment on carbon rim braking performance.

Generally I'm quite pleased and don't feel I'm losing much vs my hydraulic disc braked bike except in the wettest conditions. Both bikes run full Shimano R7000 groupsets for reference.


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Mar 2021)

roley poley said:


> The splosh of your rim braked wheels through a mud filled puddle ..the scuffing scrubbing sound of a grinding paste being formed as the levers are squeezed always makes me wince



I just treat that as an incentive to make minimal use of the brakes and rely on anticipation and reading the road conditions ahead. If you don't ride in a fast/aggressive manner it's perfectly possible to go miles and hardly touch the brakes apart from descents and finally coming to a complete halt at traffic lights. Most of the time I can keep my speed within safe limits for the conditions merely by freewheeling or sitting more upright to increase the aerodynamic drag. My brake pads last absolutely ages.


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## jowwy (22 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> I guess if it was custom, you had the choice to go as cheap as you like!


Custom 7yrs ago was quick release only as that was the standard back then, doesnt make it cheap and thru axles on forks or rear triangle isnt more expensive. What would be expensive is replacing 4 Wheelsets from QR to thru axle.........i’d prefer not to waste money replacing wheelsets for absolute zero gain, other than lowering my bank balance.

There really are some snobs cropping up on this thread indeed or should i say Trolls.....maybe rather than fishing for bites from members, maybe posters could add something to the thread instead.


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## matticus (22 Mar 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Ah bless a double bite.


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## jowwy (22 Mar 2021)

Im surprised anybody makes threads or posts these days, with the amount of trolls that have invaded CC........


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## matticus (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> Im surprised anybody makes threads or posts these days, with the amount of trolls that have invaded CC........


Trust me, this is nothing like real Trolling!
If it makes you feel better my bestest bike is Ti with "Plebs" dual-pivots. And 8sp :-O 
Matty x


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## jowwy (22 Mar 2021)

matticus said:


> Trust me, this is nothing like real Trolling!
> If it makes you feel better my bestest bike is Ti with "Plebs" dual-pivots. And 8sp :-O
> Matty x


But trolling all the same......


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## matticus (22 Mar 2021)

jowwy said:


> But trolling all the same......


Have you seen the title of the thread??

As a rimbrake fan, I've spent 2 years wondering if the World of Cycling is trolling ME!


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## BalkanExpress (22 Mar 2021)

Bought a bike fitted with Campag deltas: what is this thing you call “stopping “


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## Gunk (22 Mar 2021)

BalkanExpress said:


> Bought a bike fitted with Campag deltas: what is this thing you call “stopping “



For some reason all Campag calipers seem to have special powers, both my Campag equipped bikes seem to stop on a sixpence


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## houblon (22 Mar 2021)

BalkanExpress said:


> Bought a bike fitted with Campag deltas: what is this thing you call “stopping “



It's what other cyclists do so they can admire their beauty.

Regarding quick release and discs, maybe not such an issue with road bikes but there were stories of hard braking on mountain bikes (where of course discs are entirely appropriate) pushing the front wheel out. I don't think you can buy an mtb fork with QR nowadays.


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## Johnno260 (22 Mar 2021)

Gunk said:


> For some reason all Campag calipers seem to have special powers, both my Campag equipped bikes seem to stop on a sixpence



Same Campag Veloce on my Ribble used mainly in the wet it’s less a question on stopping or if I can hang on! haha

Also people saying about price, surely that’s subjective as what I spent on my Merida to me was a lot, to others it would be budget probably.


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## si_c (22 Mar 2021)

houblon said:


> It's what other cyclists do so they can admire their beauty.
> 
> Regarding quick release and discs, maybe not such an issue with road bikes but there were stories of hard braking on mountain bikes (where of course discs are entirely appropriate) pushing the front wheel out. I don't think you can buy an mtb fork with QR nowadays.


I doubt that was QR failure, more user error. QRs are more than capable of putting sufficient clamping force laterally to keep the wheel in place, if you don't put the wheel in properly, there is no QR which could fix that.


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## Smokin Joe (22 Mar 2021)

si_c said:


> Slightly better than regular calipers - the arms pivot about fixed points rather than floating which means they feel as though they bite quicker and you have slightly more control over how much of your lever pull translates into braking activity. They're much closer to disc brakes in how they perform than my experience with centre mounted dual pivots, although this is on good quality alloy rims I wouldn't want to comment on carbon rim braking performance.
> 
> Generally I'm quite pleased and don't feel I'm losing much vs my hydraulic disc braked bike except in the wettest conditions. Both bikes run full Shimano R7000 groupsets for reference.


Another advantage of direct mounts must that you don't knock the brake out of line when removing and replacing a wheel.


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## si_c (22 Mar 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> Another advantage of direct mounts must that you don't knock the brake out of line when removing and replacing a wheel.


Nope, that's true, hadn't thought of that, but you could argue that's a failure of centre mounted calipers rather than an advantage of direct mount. Users of cantilevers rarely complain of such issues.


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## houblon (22 Mar 2021)

si_c said:


> I doubt that was QR failure, more user error. QRs are more than capable of putting sufficient clamping force laterally to keep the wheel in place, if you don't put the wheel in properly, there is no QR which could fix that.



Maybe. I don't know anyone it actually happened to but a fast, heavy bike on rough ground with powerful brake pushing the axle in exactly the right direction...it only takes a small amount of user error.


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## Ridgeway (16 Apr 2021)

managed to give the brakes a better test yesterday evening on a reasonable descent, road surface was wet for the most part so neededto keep my speed low, hence braking most of the way.Have to say they worked very well and every bit as good as the discs, once the rims dried out.







Plenty of hairpins to slow down for😬


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