# Holding cars up...



## magnatom (13 Nov 2011)

I don't post here much these days, I'm too busy with family, my blog, writing a book etc. But I still pop in from time to time.

One thing I don't do now is post videos here. I don't have the time to explain in minute detail why I did this, why I did that...

However, I think this one is worth it. Really shows how illogical some drivers are when it comes to cyclists.

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQdijWFAIns[/media]


Enjoy!


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## Origamist (13 Nov 2011)

Anger displacement at its finest.


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## Poacher (13 Nov 2011)

Priceless!!! Thanks for that - you've made my day!


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## SurlyNomad (13 Nov 2011)

Well i enjoyed it mate! Sometimes it is just better to let them get on with there boring lives and say nothing, but on the other hand sometimes its nice to have a bit of fun with drivers, especially ones who clearly deserve it. She was probably still upset when she got to work and spoiled her whole day.


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## baldycyclist (13 Nov 2011)

Nice
Crikey you were shifting through that traffic magna
Braver than me


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## Red Light (13 Nov 2011)

Fantastic!!!


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Nov 2011)

Absolutely classic!

There seemed to be very few other cyclists or motorbikers on the road. Maybe this makes you an easier scapegoat to target - some people will always blame the outsider for a problem caused inside the system.


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## gbb (13 Nov 2011)

You dealt with that beautifully, laugh at them. She probably went to work and gave everyone rock all


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## Hip Priest (13 Nov 2011)

Incredible stuff - laughter is the only appropriate response. Good riding and well dealt with.


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## Cal (13 Nov 2011)

I found the first part quite funny, but when it shows exactly what the route was like beforehand it just makes it so much better!


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## jonathanw (13 Nov 2011)

Looks like Glasgow???. 
Nice attitude, I am starting to get less angry/ frustrated with drivers, but you did exactly the right thing to stay calm and have a laugh at her expense. I shall be taking a leaf out of your book.
I hope to be able to use the VED/ road tax argument one day and remain calm as well.
Fab vid


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

Anyone who has ever worked in a role dealing with the general public knows that there are people out there who are borderline mentally unwell. It's insecurity, or resentment at something going on in their personal lives, so they lash out at an out-group, they kick the cat, they phone up the gas board or council and say they are utterly disgusted that something or other has happened and have a right go at the person who answers the phone. I think there was even a tremor in that driver's voice,she was so emotionally unstable. What sort of live must she have?


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## Crankarm (13 Nov 2011)

You do wind 'em up Magnatom ...............

What would you now say your average speed is - 40mph?


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## 2Loose (13 Nov 2011)

Can't agree more with Lee's (AFS) sig.


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## Hip Priest (13 Nov 2011)

dawesome said:


> Anyone who has ever worked in a role dealing with the general public knows that there are people out there who are borderline mentally unwell. It's insecurity, or resentment at something going on in their personal lives, so they lash out at an out-group, they kick the cat, they phone up the gas board or council and say they are utterly disgusted that something or other has happened and have a right go at the person who answers the phone. I think there was even a tremor in that driver's voice,she was so emotionally unstable. What sort of live must she have?



Probably a similar life to many other residents of the UK. An insanely complex world of working long hours in an unfulling job in order to pay for things the TV and magazines tell her she needs, whilst juggling family responsibilties, rising debts and a nagging sense of dis-satisfaction and existential despair.

So she turns to drink, prescription drugs, mouthing off at cyclists or call centre operatives for no reason, or all of the above. 

Or maybe she's just a total div.


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## 400bhp (13 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Or maybe she's just a total div.



The answer.


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## Bicycle (13 Nov 2011)

I was greatly amused by the 'prequel' section showing just how snarled up the traffic was. It was a good touch.

However, I and many other cyclists are the recipients of bizarre, ill-judged comments and gestures on a regular basis.
It's not a big deal. I'd say that the driver in the clip was having a lousy day and wanted/needed to take it out on someone. 

I don't think it's particularly big or clever to film your own *'Aren't I Clever' Show* and put in online.

I realise she 'started it' with her supposed gesture and words of admonishment, but if you'd heard her you wouldn't have had to ask what it was she said.

There was a little too much glee in it all for me.

If someone is having a truly awful time, why bang on and on at them at a red light for your own amusement and to entertain others. There was something a little gratuitous and self-congratulatory about the dialogue section of the clip.

Yes, she was being ghastly... but people are. It's highly unlikely you altered her mood for the better or altered her future behaviour. 

People who bang on online that there's no such thing as Road Tax are dull enough, but people who film themselves giving mini-lectures about it in rush-hour traffic might need to read some more interesting books.

Funny clip in some ways, but disturbing in others.


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Probably a similar life to many other residents of the UK. An insanely complex world of working long hours in an unfulling job in order to pay for things the TV and magazines tell her she needs, whilst juggling family responsibilties, rising debts and a nagging sense of dis-satisfaction and existential despair.
> 
> So she turns to drink, prescription drugs, mouthing off at cyclists or call centre operatives for no reason, or all of the above.
> 
> Or maybe she's just a total div.



The next driver that behaves like that to me, I won't say a word about road tax, I'll shout:

_"Don't you take out your existential despair on me!"_

Or, I'll just keep saying "It's not your fault" as the driver's rage mounts until they fall in to my arms sobbing.


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## Hip Priest (13 Nov 2011)

Funnily enough, if Magnatom had just knocked on the window and said 'Do you need a hug?' he might have got a laugh and an apology. Or she might have gone mental at him. It's difficult to say.


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## classic33 (13 Nov 2011)

magnatom said:


> I don't post here much these days, I'm too busy with family, my blog, *writing a book* etc. But I still pop in from time to time.
> 
> Enjoy!



So is the book medical or cycling themed?


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## Hip Priest (13 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I don't think it's particularly big or clever to film your own *'Aren't I Clever' Show* and put in online.



Whilst I disagree with some aspects of your post, I do share similar doubts about the merit of putting videos like this online. Road rage incidents are very unedifying, and I'd imagine many people would find it quite distressing to discover a video of such an incident had posted on the internet, and commented upon by tens or hundreds of people.


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## Crankarm (13 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Funnily enough, *if Magnatom had just knocked on the window and said 'Do you need a hug?*' he might have got a laugh and an apology. Or she might have gone mental at him. It's difficult to say.




No, this would have got him arrested and a night in the cells  .


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Whilst I disagree with some aspects of your post, I do share similar doubts about the merit of putting videos like this online. Road rage incidents are very unedifying, and I'd imagine many people would find it quite distressing to discover a video of such an incident had posted on the internet, and commented upon by tens or hundreds of people.



Then they shouldn't act like knobs on the roads, wave gestures at other road users, put cats in bins, or swing cats by the tail.


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## Hip Priest (13 Nov 2011)

dawesome said:


> Then they shouldn't act like knobs on the roads, wave gestures at other road users, put cats in bins, or swing cats by the tail.



True.

But do we not all do things that we'd be embarrassed about if they were recorded and broadcast against our wishes?


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## boydj (13 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Whilst I disagree with some aspects of your post, I do share similar doubts about the merit of putting videos like this online. Road rage incidents are very unedifying, and I'd imagine many people would find it quite distressing to discover a video of such an incident had posted on the internet, and commented upon by tens or hundreds of people.



Get a life guys. The vid is an excellent example of the illogicality of motorists and deserves a wide showing - particularly to motorists, to get them thinking about who holds who up on busy roads.


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## skudupnorth (13 Nov 2011)

Top vid that proves how stupid and ill-informed a lot of motorists are ! When i worked in the motortrade even my workmates thought there was such a thing called "Road Tax",i used to reply that i don't pay "Road Tax" on my car and i would find out who is taking this money off them for this non-existant tax  That normally got the look from them of cogs grinding to a halt


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> True.
> 
> But do we not all do things that we'd be embarrassed about if they were recorded and broadcast against our wishes?



Not in public.


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## MrHappyCyclist (13 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> However, I and many other cyclists are the recipients of bizarre, ill-judged comments and gestures on a regular basis. It's not a big deal. I'd say that the driver in the clip was having a lousy day and wanted/needed to take it out on someone.
> 
> I don't think it's particularly big or clever to film your own *'Aren't I Clever' Show* and put in online.
> 
> ...


first, it *is* a big deal. Angry people behind the wheels of cars are dangerous. Just because it happens a lot does not make it trivial. If people started gesticulating and shouting abuse at other pedestrians when walking. they would be dealt with. I see no reason why road rage behind the wheel is not considered far worse.

Second, I think you missed the poiint. The woman was too thick to see that the cyclist caused her no problem or delay whatsoever, she was held up behind the motor traffic. The editing of the video brought out that all-too-common stupidity extremely well. It is common for motorists to think in this way about cyclists; the fact that you are prepared to put up with it does not make it wrong for others to try to do something about it.


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2011)

Why is it OK to behave like she did just because she's in a car? I hope she does find the video and is shamed by it.

By the way, one of Traffic Droid's videos was found by the driver recently, it's the one where a small white van has a driver on the phone, and the driver tries to knock him off a couple of times.


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> Why is it OK to behave like she did just because she's in a car? I hope she does find the video and is shamed by it.
> 
> By the way, one of Traffic Droid's videos was found by the driver recently, it's the one where a small white van has a driver on the phone, and the driver tries to knock him off a couple of times.



His SMH clip where the driver gets out is scary!


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## 400bhp (13 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> By the way, one of Traffic Droid's videos was found by the driver recently, it's the one where a small white van has a driver on the phone, and the driver tries to knock him off a couple of times.



Am I missing something??


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/user/SonofthewindsInc

Is the one I mean.


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2011)

I'll link it...


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUp2skyQmNg


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## 400bhp (13 Nov 2011)

Does he [Traffic Droid] go around berating motorists on a regular basis?


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## doog (13 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> Does he [Traffic Droid] go around berating motorists on a regular basis?



looks like he cycles around looking for a scrap.

As for the OP's post what did she do to make you confront her?..a gesture? You should have just left it. Would you have done the same if a transit full of pissed up Celtic fans had gestured at you...unlikely.


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## Bicycle (13 Nov 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> first, it *is* a big deal. Angry people behind the wheels of cars are dangerous. Just because it happens a lot does not make it trivial. If people started gesticulating and shouting abuse at other pedestrians when walking. they would be dealt with. I see no reason why road rage behind the wheel is not considered far worse.
> 
> *We can disagree. I understand why some people might see the initial behaviour by the driver in this vid as a big deal. I don't. I do see road rage as a big deal, but this was just a hand gesture and muttered words inaudible to the cyclist. I know something of rage and that is not rage in my book. *
> 
> ...


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## 400bhp (13 Nov 2011)

Good post Bicycle


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## MrHappyCyclist (13 Nov 2011)

*


bicycle said:



I don't think it's wrong for people to do something about poor driving. I do not disagree entirely with what the poster of this clip is doing. I am explicit about that in my earlier post. That doesn't stop me from finding it a little crass, artless and self-regarding. The OP put it up and invited comment. I am in the minority on this forum, but that is my view.

Click to expand...

OK, understood, though I don't think magnatom is someone who posts every little minor incident. I think he was making a point rather than being self-regarding. 

The real thing that concerns me about the view you have presented is that it suggests the issue is only about the extreme cases and lesser issues should be ignored. in fact, the extreme examples exist in the context of a much wider culture of antipathy towards cyclists, and that is the root of the problem. (And I do think there is a problem.). If we ignore the small things and pretend they don't matter, then the big things will never go away.*


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## magnatom (13 Nov 2011)

....and there we have it This thread is heading the way that multitudes of threads about my videos, or me went in the past that I just got tired of replying to.

I have never ever have a problem with people with people disagreeing with me, but I hate it when people start to explain how I am thinking and explaining the reasoning of why I do this, or why I do that.

Let me dispel the myth. I did not post this video to try and come across clever. In fact, when editing this video I didn't think it was anything special. I didn't think it would make a big impact. Let me explain what led up to me posting the video from the moment of the video. After that you can project your own prejudices into my mind all you like.

Incident happened. First in probably a month. I was actually shocked my her reaction and what struck me most was the contempt that she displayed when she first spoke to me. So I decided to publish it.

When editing it I initially was going to publish only the incident only. It was only when I looked further at the footage that I realised the relevance of the heavy traffic. So I decided to add it. Mmm. If I add it at the start no-one will watch until the incident, so I decided to edit it the way I did.

My focus on the video was the contempt she displayed the lack of logic was secondary. The clue is in the video title. So when I published it it was only after the reactions I was getting that I had unintentionally changed the focus from the contempt to the 'held in traffic issue'. It wasn't my intention, but as a video it worked, and I feel it is a very good illustration of the issue. 

As for lecturing about Road Tax, mmm. I think you'll find she was attempting to lecture me on tax and my road position holding her up, whilst being abusive about it. I just tried to correct her vitriol.


Anyway thanks for reminding me why I took a step back from here. There are some great posters on here (and I don't always agree with them, and they don't always agree with me), but there is a lot of negativity for negativity sake, which is IMO a shame.

I'm off to write some of my book. Yes it will be about cycling, and a lot more. Plenty has happened to me over the last few years, some of it as yet unpublished. It'll be a fabulous read (blatant plug!!) Perhaps those who think they know how I think would like to write it for me.....


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## mcshroom (13 Nov 2011)

I can't believe that's you Maggers, the voice is nowhere near squeaky enough






Nice to see you back on here, and good luck with your book. 

It's a bit of a nothing incident compared to some, but I agree the prequel bit does show how ridiculous her arguement was. Whether I'd bother asking her questions at the light at all I don't know, but then again i don't see as many cars as were in your vid in a week of commuting, so I have a rather different perspective.


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## Crackle (13 Nov 2011)

Feck me! you're not subjecting us to a book as well are you?


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

lee's a twat waffle but I agree with him here. Re-dub the video with Charlie Brown's teacher's voice instead of the voice of the driver then dub the scalping with the Benny Hill music.


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## Crankarm (13 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> Feck me! you're not subjecting us to a book as well are you?



You don't have to buy it.

Trailer for his book ...............His name is Magnatom, Dave Magnatom.

Ingore the sniping trolls maggers. I saw the irony in her contempt of you. You have been away too long letting your guard down getting sucked in again.


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## Crankarm (13 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611363"]
Come off it, the above is a load of bollox and you know it. ****ing hell, did anyone else not see the irony and sense of humour in the OP's vid? Driver complains how cyclist holds her up yet has just been stuck in traffic for gawd knows how long. No more, no less, Mag don't need some sort of psyche assessment on a cycling forum. No wonder he don't come on here no more and who can blame him.
[/quote]

+1.

Come back maggers .................. don't go!


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## Crackle (13 Nov 2011)

Crankarm said:


> You don't have to buy it.
> 
> Trailer for his book ...............His name is Magnatom, Dave Magnatom.
> 
> Ingore the sniping trolls maggers. I saw the irony in her contempt of you. You have been away too long letting your guard down getting sucked in again.




I was joking Cranky.

Hopefully Maggers knows me well enough to realize that.


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## dawesome (13 Nov 2011)

Will we get the full story on the Intriguing Pulled Video Maggers?


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## John the Monkey (13 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611363"]
Come off it, the above is a load of bollox and you know it.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.


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## magnatom (13 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> I was joking Cranky.
> 
> Hopefully Maggers knows me well enough to realize that.



 Of course I do Crackle. 

I'll send to a signed copy....of course I need to write the damn thing, get it published etc....

As for coming back more, I honestly don't have the time. Lots on at work, at home, and at my damn fine blog......oh wait that's self promotion again.....perhaps I paid that lady driver......


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## lukesdad (13 Nov 2011)

Crankarm said:


> +1.
> 
> Come back maggers .................. don't go!




Dont listen to him .


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## magnatom (13 Nov 2011)

dawesome said:


> Will we get the full story on the Intriguing Pulled Video Maggers?



Yes. It's quite a story!


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## potsy (13 Nov 2011)

Great vid mags, keep 'em coming. 
I hope for the drivers sake it was just a bad day for her and she's not like that all the time


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## Crankarm (13 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> *I find myself baffled sometimes how some road users seem to find discord and anger where I find only the joy of cycling or driving. I may just be extraordinarily lucky in having hardly ever seen anything that infuriates me in 40 years of cycling and 30 as a driver.*



Really .............. 40 years you say you've been cycling and 30 years driving and hardly seen anything that has remotely infuriated you. Blimey. You should go to Specsavers or perhaps leave your village in the sleepy Welsh borders  ? What are you drinking?


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## Origamist (13 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I don't think it's wrong for people to do something about poor driving. I do not disagree entirely with what the poster of this clip is doing. I am explicit about that in my earlier post. That doesn't stop me from finding it a little crass, artless and self-regarding. The OP put it up and invited comment. I am in the minority on this forum, but that is my view.
> 
> I find myself baffled sometimes how some road users seem to find discord and anger where I find only the joy of cycling or driving. I may just be extraordinarily lucky in having hardly ever seen anything that infuriates me in 40 years of cycling and 30 as a driver.
> 
> ...




For someone who attests to find only joy in cycling and driving, you're easily aerated and disturbed by Mag's video. You're also very quick to detect crassness, artlessness and self-regard in the behaviour of others on a cycling forum. I'm adducing from this incongruity that your self-styled maverick status is little more than interweb posturing and quarrelsomeness.

It's also a bit rich that you, Mr Prolixity, would admonish someone else for indulging in a "mini-lecture"!


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## classic33 (13 Nov 2011)

magnatom said:


> Of course I do Crackle.
> 
> I'll send to a signed copy....of course I need to write the damn thing, get it published etc....
> 
> As for coming back more, I honestly don't have the time. Lots on at work, at home, and at my damn fine blog......oh wait that's self promotion again.....*perhaps I paid that lady driver*......



Is the book going to be in hard print or electronic print? 
The latter may give the chance to include some of your more (in)famous videos. If the latter how are you going sed a signed copy? 

What for!!


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## TwickenhamCyclist (13 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611363"]
Come off it, the above is a load of bollox and you know it. ****ing hell, did anyone else not see the irony and sense of humour in the OP's vid? Driver complains how cyclist holds her up yet has just been stuck in traffic for gawd knows how long. No more, no less, Mag don't need some sort of psyche assessment on a cycling forum. No wonder he don't come on here no more and who can blame him.
[/quote]

+ another 1


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## Bicycle (13 Nov 2011)

Crankarm said:


> Really .............. 40 years you say you've been cycling and 30 years driving and hardly seen anything that has remotely infuriated you. Blimey. You should go to Specsavers or perhaps leave your village in the sleepy Welsh borders  ? What are you drinking?



Tee Hee... I'm a Londoner really and cycle a lot there. I spend most of my time here in the Marches because it's more peaceful here... 

As to Specsavers, I had an eye test recently because my eyes were getting tired. To my astonishment it turned out I had perfect vision. 

These days I'm particularly fond of Rioja and the occasional glass of Gaillac, a white from the South of France.


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## beastie (13 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611377"]
*The above is a great example of why you never ever, ever, ever........ever split a lane - ever. With all due respect what a moron riding the way he did in that position. The van was a close pass but he had nowhere to go because of the undertake on the n/s

*
[/quote]

Exactly right


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## doog (13 Nov 2011)

Ive been watching some of the OP's youtube vids




. This helmet cam thing is getting out of hand.

The guy is something else and my self exile from commuting forums since my bike radar days has thankfully saved me from this comedy show.

Picking on lone female drivers at traffic lights for actually doing nothing other than offering a hand gesture is quite low down on his list of achievements.

One highlight for me is the "you spat at me, you spat at me" incident with the taxi driver



who clearly passed him with over 3 feet to spare (wasnt enough apparently).

It makes me feel like throttling the next cyclist with a helmet cam who sticks it in my direction in an effort to justify having the damn thing on his head.


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## Sara_H (13 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611363"]
Come off it, the above is a load of bollox and you know it. ****ing hell, did anyone else not see the irony and sense of humour in the OP's vid? Driver complains how cyclist holds her up yet has just been stuck in traffic for gawd knows how long. No more, no less, Mag don't need some sort of psyche assessment on a cycling forum. No wonder he don't come on here no more and who can blame him.
[/quote]

What he said ^.


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2011)

I must admit I'm quite sceptical of Bicycle's cycling credentials after rather too many posts like that one. He really does seem remarkably anti-bicycle, and I say that as a little bit of a petrolhead.

It's a load of old tosh anyway, Magnatom. Your video was great, I loved it, I loved how you were so calm and happy, and had a laugh, and how she was so remarkably angry with no justification whatsoever.


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## skudupnorth (13 Nov 2011)

Crankarm said:


> +1.
> 
> Come back maggers .................. don't go!



Feel the love,come back to the dark side !!!


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## Bicycle (13 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> For someone who attests to find only joy in cycling and driving, you're easily aerated and disturbed by Mag's video. You're also very quick to detect crassness, artlessness and self-regard in the behaviour of others on a cycling forum. I'm adducing from this incongruity that your self-styled maverick status is little more than interweb posturing and quarrelsomeness.
> 
> It's also a bit rich that you, Mr Prolixity, would admonish someone else for indulging in a "mini-lecture"!




Tee Hee... No aerating or disturbance going on. My heart rate and blood pressure remain low. I do detect all those things (artlessness etc) but also had positive comments.

As to Interweb posturing, I fear you have a point. But if I'm going to be hanged for that we'll be building gallows until Doomsday.

Mr prolixity? Yes... I am about as verbose a bastard as you'll find on any forum, but there's a difference between splashing a few sentences on a forum where comment is invited and offering sermons in rush-hour traffic.

I fear my comments have offended many. I apologise for any anger caused. At the same time, I find I still agree with all that I've written on this thread. I don't claim to be right. It's just a matter of opinion, but mine seems to put people's noses out.

It would be much easier for all if I were able to take Helmetcammery more seriously... but nine times out of ten it strikes me as a Fast Show sketch that wasn't quite funny enough for the final edit. 

I apologise for thinking that, too.


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## Poacher (13 Nov 2011)

Welcome back Dave. Just ignore Bicycle, Luke's Dad and a few more - I'm sure you can recognise trolls by now!


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## thnurg (13 Nov 2011)

This is pure guess work but I have an inkling as to what is going through her head. She has been stuck in traffic for ages and is getting stressed about it. No sooner has she jumped off the front of one queue than she is at the back of another.

A rare opportunity to go at a speed that is not a crawl presents itself, but what should be in the way but a cyclist. A bleedin' cyclist. She's watched this git filter past her earlier and now he is in front and preventing her from doing the speed she wants to do. And he doesn't even pay road tax, so has no right to be in the way. Cue hull breach. Every car that has been in her way is it least a peer and is suffering the same problems, not so with the cyclist.

While the above train of thought has more holes than Rab C. Nesbit's vest I reckon that she was riding a train very similar to this. I pity her for the level of stress that builds up to this irrational and inappropriate outburst.


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## gaz (13 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> Ive been watching some of the OP's youtube vids
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that is exactly why i rarely post on bike radar.


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## Poacher (13 Nov 2011)

PS Thumbs up to Crankarm; I don't often agree with you since you gave up cycling, but you seem to be back on message now!!


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## Brahan (13 Nov 2011)

Crap video. Waste of internet space and time. That's the main problem with the internet, it gives a free, unlimited platform, onto which anyone can upload sh1te that will waste your time.

There's nothing good, interesting, informative or useful here. Get back to your book.


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## Crankarm (13 Nov 2011)

Brahan said:


> Crap video. Waste of internet space and time. That's the main problem with the internet, it gives a free, unlimited platform, onto which anyone can upload sh1te that will waste your time.
> 
> There's nothing good, interesting, informative or useful here. Get back to your book.



Don't sit on the fence why not come off and say what you really feel  .


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## mr_hippo (13 Nov 2011)

Poacher said:


> Welcome back Dave. Just ignore Bicycle, Luke's Dad and a few more - I'm sure you can recognise trolls proper cyclists by now!



Corrected it for you


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## growingvegetables (13 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> Your video was great, I loved it, I loved how you were so calm and happy, and had a laugh, and how she was so remarkably angry with no justification whatsoever.


+ 1

(+ others from my cycling kids)


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## upsidedown (14 Nov 2011)

Well I loved it. She's a nasty unhinged piece of work that needs to take look at her attitude to others.


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## BentMikey (14 Nov 2011)

doog + brahan = oxygen thieves.


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Tee Hee... No aerating or disturbance going on. My heart rate and blood pressure remain low. I do detect all those things (artlessness etc) but also had positive comments.



By your own admission you were disturbed and your continued posts lead me to adduce a moderate to serious level of aeration.




Bicycle said:


> As to Interweb posturing, I fear you have a point. But if I'm going to be hanged for that we'll be building gallows until Doomsday.
> 
> Mr prolixity? Yes... I am about as verbose a bastard as you'll find on any forum, but there's a difference between splashing a few sentences on a forum where comment is invited and offering sermons in rush-hour traffic.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone is angry, perhaps a little perplexed at your stance on this and numerous cycling related issues. 

I'm reductively blaming the disjunction between your user name and your posts. You seem far more fluent and knowledgeable when talking about motoring than cycling, nothing wrong with that _per se_, but as this is a cycling forum it's going to garner attention. If you resided under the nom de plume, "Mondeoman", it would be more apposite and I'd be much happier.  Can you you speak to Admin - think of my blood pressure....

Finally, I think your problem with helmetcammery, is that you take it far too seriously and you're in denial (hence your inability to ignore Youtube fanatics such as Magnaton and Mr_Hippo).


----------



## Dan B (14 Nov 2011)

1611399 said:


> I'd have to agree. I don't think of Luke'sDad as a troll. Bit of a wind up on a good day maybe but not a troll.


If that's how you tell a good day, I don't think I've ever seen him post on a bad day


----------



## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> By your own admission you were disturbed and your continued posts lead me to adduce a moderate to serious level of aeration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Origamist,

That's a very balanced reply and I thank you for it. Fair point about the name, but I call myself Bicycle on anything bike-related. Also, I simply _couldn't_ drive a Ford. You could choose to see my name as some sort of poor attempt at irony if it would help your BP, but in truth it isn't. My Wiggle reviews are also under 'bicycle'. 

Most of my posts here (fixie stuff etc) have no whiff of the car about them, but I do take a fairly mellow line about traffic transgressions that seem to upset some riders. Sometimes (only sometimes) I have a sense of latent car-bashing in some posts and I try to give the balancing view. I may push this farther than is prudent on occasion, but I'm no troll. I ride daily. I still have limited movement in my right shoulder after a SMIDSY a year ago (although it was a lovely little old lady who insisted on calling an ambulance and rang the next day because she hadn't slept for worrying about me).

I take your point about HelmetCammery. I don't take it seriously (or have a problem with it), but my posts may make it appear that I do. As to being in denial, I think I might at times choose not to take in some of the more dangerous behaviours I witness on the roads. I hope that isn't denial, but that's the thing about denial... How would I recognise it?

Again, thank you for not just ranting and calling me a troll. I appreciate that. I am a very keen cyclist and the progenitor of three more. 

Bleak is the day when autumn rain and wind put me off going for a ride... but I think I accept the current hegemony of the motor vehicle on our roads and choose to ride around that. That may mark me out as the outsider more than anything else.


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## John the Monkey (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> ....but I do take a fairly mellow line about traffic transgressions that seem to upset some riders. Sometimes (only sometimes) I have a sense of latent car-bashing in some posts and I try to give the balancing view.



Upset? No. Mystify? Yes.

Virtually any incident posted here seems to have a post from you somewhere in the thread exculpating the driver, whilst suggesting (with varying degreess of insistence) that the cyclist involved has been the author of their own misfortune. 

Whether this is due to the cycling history you've outlined in other posts, and as a result, a degree of acclimitisation to bad behaviour that is somewhat uncanny, or a deliberate desire to provoke, I have no idea, and would not venture to say.


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## lukesdad (14 Nov 2011)

Dan B said:


> If that's how you tell a good day, I don't think I've ever seen him post on a bad day


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

John the Monkey said:


> Virtually any incident posted here seems to have a post from you somewhere in the thread exculpating the driver, whilst suggesting (with varying degreess of insistence) that the cyclist involved has been the author of their own misfortune.




I'm not sure that's the case. I'm happy to be wrong on this, but I'd be surprised if I were.

Five examples (you hint at many more) would satisfy me that you're on the money.

I was critical of a cyclist who assumed primary because a car was parked in the opposite carriageway some distance ahead, but I think many road users would have found that slightly eccentric.

Five examples will have me eating humble pie (with chutney, of course).


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## Leaway2 (14 Nov 2011)

Excellent!


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## John the Monkey (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I'm not sure that's the case. I'm happy to be wrong on this, but I'd be surprised if I were.



Actually, that's a fair criticism, and I revise what I said to limit it to the incident threads in which we've both posted, rather than "any" incident thread - I'm sorry.


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## mr_hippo (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> Finally, I think your problem with helmetcammery, is that you take it far too seriously and you're in denial (hence your inability to ignore Youtube fanatics such as Magnaton and Mr_Hippo).



Sorry, how does just over 20 videos in 4 years on youtube qualify me as a fanatic?


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## 400bhp (14 Nov 2011)

This thread is a very good example of people (3 in particular) able to disagree but debate, rather than the usual argument & name slanging.

Good stuff.


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> Sorry, how does just over 20 videos in 4 years on youtube qualify me as a fanatic?



I'll retract "fanatic" and replace it with "zealot" - happy now, Mr_H?

You helmet cam users are all the same - defensive and blinkered!


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## Matthew_T (14 Nov 2011)

I can easily manage 20 videos in 4 days with no problem. (some are pretty minor though)


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## snorri (14 Nov 2011)

Matthew_T said:


> I can easily manage 20 videos in 4 days with no problem. (some are pretty minor though)



No one cares about how many videos you make, just as long as you don't go public with them.


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## gaz (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> I'll retract "fanatic" and replace it with "zealot" - happy now, Mr_H?
> 
> You helmet cam users are all the same - defensive and blinkered!



you stem cam users are all the same as well! 



Matthew_T said:


> I can easily manage 20 videos in 4 days with no problem. (some are pretty minor though)



I could manage 20 videos a day. But what is the point? Most of it is fairly minor and not worth uploading. I just learn from it and move on.


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2011)

snorri said:


> No one cares about how many videos you make, just as long as you don't go public with them.



Does Matthew upload videos? Well I never!

@Gaz stem-cam users want nothing to do with helmet camera wearers. We are a totally different breed: far more refined, better looking and with a great sense of humour. I can just about tolerate bar mounted cammers, but once they start strapping these HD gizmos to their helmets they instantly become borg-like loons. 

Is that knee-jerk and tribal enough for Doog and the like?


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## gaz (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> Does Matthew upload videos? Well I never!
> 
> @Gaz stem-cam users want nothing to do with helmet camera wearers. We are a totally different breed: far more refined, better looking and with a great sense of humour. I can just about tolerate bar mounted cammers, but once they start strapping these HD gizmos to their helmets they instantly become borg-like loons.
> 
> Is that knee-jerk and tribal enough for Doog and the like?



 One of us, one of us!


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611414"]
LOL! A pissing contest between helmet cam wearers - brillant.
[/quote]

I thought this thread was truly amazing and unique in the CycleChat cosmos as Lee, Spinners and Cranky were all in agreement (for only a short time, admittedly). In recognition of this stupendously unlikely alignment of views, I have asked Admin (aka Nostradamus) to make sure this thread is either a) properly backed up on pedal powered servers in the North East, or b) nuked off the face of the web in case it bodes ill...


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

It breaks my heart to say it, but some HelmetCammery is good, entertaining or even helpful. Silly Cyclists is often all three. If quoted, I will deny having said that.

However... I thought I'd broaden my mind by watching some Magnatom, the cause of this thread.

I was left slightly startled and a little unnerved. One of them is called 'Out of my way!'. Take a peep, but sit down before viewing.

Certainly the woman driving the Freelander shows poor manners, but Magnatom has filtered past her and then stayed put as the lights changed. 

I was a motorcycle courier in London in the 80s and still commute there sometimes on a bicycle. Elbows are (partly) for keeping door mirrors and wide loads away from your vital organs. Filtering between vehicles requires the filtering party to take some responsibility and show some manners. 

Having been mildly brushed by the Freelander he'd just filtered past and then blocked, Magnatom inexplicably catches up and unleashes a mouthful of expletives. By the yelling and squawking you'd think a weapon had been drawn. 

Magnatom, it is not polite to pass a vehilcle in traffic and then remain stationary when that vehicle has only your presence preventing it from moving forward. Whether the road offers 20m, 200m or 20km of space for the driver to occupy, good manners require that you don't move in front of someone and then block their progress. I am amused that you think that a reasonable position...

The tirade of abusive language (both for the driver's ears and just yelled into the traffic) is indicative of quite an angry soul. It was also rather horrid to be personally abusive to the driver. Martial arts can be helpful if you have anger issues.

Yes, she passed you more closely than I find appropriate later in the tape. There is no excuse for that. 

But there is plenty of mitigation. 

Why do people feel the need to post online clips that I'd delete out of embarrassment in the unlikely event that I'd filmed them?

Magnatom, you're not the Lone Ranger, it's not the Wild West and if you are horrid to other road users they might be horrid back. It doesn't excuse their behaviour, but it can explain it a little.

The Freelander driver was bad, naughty and not good in the final close pass.

You, on the other hand....


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## thnurg (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> It breaks my heart to say it, but some HelmetCammery is good, entertaining or even helpful. Silly Cyclists is often all three. If quoted, I will deny having said that.
> 
> However... I thought I'd broaden my mind by watching some Magnatom, the cause of this thread.
> 
> ...



I feel the need to stick up for magnatom on this one.

Where he was wrong:


(Possibly) bad road position. Not enough of a view is available to see this but it looks like a more defensive position could have been taken behind the freelander.
Aggressive reaction. It's better to remain calm, but can be difficult when you've had a scare and the adrenalin is pumping.
Bad language. He states that he regretted it later, but again, adrenalin.
Where she was wrong:

No matter how annoyed you may be at another road user, using your car as a weapon against them is totally inappropriate, dangerous and downright stupid.
Looking at the traffic ahead she gains nothing by being so quick off the lights, and would have lost nothing by letting him stay in front.
While she may be justified at being a little annoyed, magnatom is justified at being outraged. That's the point of the video.


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## mr_hippo (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> I'll retract "fanatic" and replace it with "zealot" - happy now, Mr_H?
> 
> You helmet cam users are all the same - defensive and blinkered!


Happy - no! I think I have had a camera on my head twice. i have only given a couple of links to my videos on this site. I never post traffic incidents because they are a fleeting moment in my ride - if they hapoen at all. 

I have just started a website, just three videos on at the moment,Videos will be linked with route maps and directions/notes. The site is in its infancy at the moment, if anyone wants the address please pm me.


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## MrHappyCyclist (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Magnatom, it is not polite to pass a vehilcle in traffic and then remain stationary when that vehicle has only your presence preventing it from moving forward. Whether the road offers 20m, 200m or 20km of space for the driver to occupy, good manners require that you don't move in front of someone and then block their progress. I am amused that you think that a reasonable position...


I can see why you hold this belief, but it shows that you are applying the same cock-eyed logic that many motorists unthinkingly apply. If you watch the whole video, you can see very well that the woman's progress in her journey has not been impeded by even a microsecond because of the cyclist.

It is no more sensible for a motorist to be annoyed at a cyclist's using his/her narrow width to get past them and then temporarily get in front than it is for a cyclist to be annoyed at a motorist's using his/her superior power-to-weight ratio to get past them and then temporarily get in front. In fact, I'm pretty sure I am delayed far more by motorists who have overtaken me than the other way round, probably by at least an order of magnitude, but I certainly don't get annoyed by that. It's just swings and roundabouts.

I believe her attitude (and possibly yours) is determined wholly by an ingrained belief in the supremacy of the motor car over all other road users.

What is totally unacceptable is this woman's deliberately ("you put yourself there") colliding with a cyclist because she disagrees with his road position.


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

thnurg said:


> I feel the need to stick up for magnatom on this one.
> 
> Where he was wrong:
> 
> ...



I agree with you. You have a more succinct way of putting it than I do. 

I did say in my post that her behaviour later in the clip was inexcusable. It was.No question.

Nonetheless, I think Magnatom displays very poor manners and by filtering past her and then stopping in a position that meant she had to brush past him... and not moving when the lights changed..... he was poking a venomous snake with a stick.

She didn't move across to brush past him; she just moved forward. It is clear from his camera view that he moves to the left (into her lane) before putting a foot down. 

That was bad manners and not the sort of thing I'd advertise online about my own riding or driving.

Nonetheless, your mitigation of Magnatom's fairly extreme and abusive reaction is well put and well argued.


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> Happy - no! I think I have had a camera on my head twice. i have only given a couple of links to my videos on this site. I never post traffic incidents because they are a fleeting moment in my ride - if they hapoen at all.
> 
> I have just started a website, just three videos on at the moment,Videos will be linked with route maps and directions/notes. The site is in its infancy at the moment, if anyone wants the address please pm me.



I'm teasing you Mr_H! 

That said, over the years you have zealously regularly made a bee-line for threads that contain film shot by cyclists in order to give us the benefit of your cycling wisdom, which usually consists of little more than: "I can't believe you did not anticipate that u-turn, left-hook, right-hook, close pass, opening door, shoot-eating alien (delete as applicable) so stop whinging" etc. It ain't exactly, err, Confucius-like (although maybe I'm setting the bar a bit high).

If I do return to Thailand next year, I'll pm you about the site.


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## col (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I agree with you. You have a more succinct way of putting it than I do.
> 
> I did say in my post that her behaviour later in the clip was inexcusable. It was.No question.
> 
> ...




I dont believe it, this cant be true, it seems that he just might have helped cause some of this, so it could be recorded and put on a public veiwing place , and try to claim bad driving from this target er I mean driver  
No no Bicycle you have it all wrong


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> Your attitude (and hers) is determined wholly by your ingrained belief in the supremacy of the motor car over all other road users.
> 
> *Tyhere is a difference; she brushed him; I wouldn't. I'd just giggle at the lack of manners and keep struggling through the heavy traffic. Although I think he shows poor manners, I do not think she comes out of it well. Not top of my charm list if I ever need to replace Mrs Bicycle.*
> 
> ...


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## Origamist (14 Nov 2011)

col said:


> I dont believe it, this cant be true, it seems that he just might have helped cause some of this, so it could be recorded and put on a public veiwing place , and try to claim bad driving from this target er I mean driver
> No no Bicycle you have it all wrong



Choreography, Col, choreography...


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## col (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> Choreography, Col, choreography...



Sorry I knew there was a word for it, alledgedly


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

col said:


> I dont believe it, this cant be true, it seems that he just might have helped cause some of this, so it could be recorded and put on a public veiwing place , and try to claim bad driving from this target er I mean driver
> No no Bicycle you have it all wrong



Tee Hee...

No, I don't for a moment suggest that the cyclist staged this or helped cause it to provide footage.

I don't suggest it and I don't think it.

I think that he displayed poor manners and his reaction was offensive and out of all proportion to the brushing with a door mirror at walking pace.

I say repeatedly that the driving was poor and that there is no excuse for the close pass later in the clip.

The driver is awful. The cyclist doesn't come out of it well either.


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## snorri (14 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> Does Matthew upload videos? Well I never!



Oh you are a tease. 
Look out for his new one of the traffic lights he thought were going to change, but they didn't.


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## ferret fur (14 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I was a motorcycle courier in London in the 80s and still commute there sometimes on a bicycle. Elbows are (partly) for keeping door mirrors and wide loads away from your vital organs. Filtering between vehicles requires the filtering party to take some responsibility and show some manners.


Hmm. Out of interest . Did you maintain this zen like calm while being a courier. Did you never attempt to yell, remonstrate or otherwise comment on drivers when you were on a motorbike?


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

ferret fur said:


> Hmm. Out of interest . Did you maintain this zen like calm while being a courier. Did you never attempt to yell, remonstrate or otherwise comment on drivers when you were on a motorbike?




Hmmm indeed. I was younger. I was much younger.

I perhaps suffered something not unlike the hot-headedness of youth. It was a long time ago. Times were different.

We were the warriors of the true faith. FX4s and post-office vans were the foe. It's all very confused in my mind.

Insofar as I ever did anything that might be interpreted as an aggressive act or hand signal... ummm....

I also made the odd comment. Maybe.

I do remember I could kickstart a stalled XT550 without putting a foot down - the motorcycle equivalent of a trackstand.

But that's not what you were asking, is it?

Well. It's like this: Do you have proof? 

If not, then I was an angel at all times.

If you have the proof, then they were all accidental and no damage was intended.

The defence rests.

Best courier bike in the known universe? V50 Monza on sticky tyres. Light, nippy, quick, pokey, comfy and with brakes that were dreamed up by a god and manufactred by a maestro. Also, a lovely 'lunky-lunky-lunky' noise at red lights. Mmmmmm....


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## ferret fur (14 Nov 2011)

Ah. I thought so. Mainly because I was fighting the same fight on a GT550 at around about the same time. 

The point was, part of the skill was to ensure that other road users treated you with respect. If there was a feeling that you would fight, kill and die for your right to be there people didn't tend to mess with you. One of the scariest experiences I ever had on a motorbike was riding a friend's newly bought CG125 (complete with L plates) across London for him & discovering that I could be safely ignored because I clearly wasn't a pyschopathic courier.


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

Strictly on a cycling theme, the scariest thing I ever saw was when following an old aircooled RD250 crossing the Hogarth Roundabout (A316 onto A4) heading into London.

He was a courier.

He hit it way too fast and sparked his pegs A LOT first left, then right then left again as he peeled off onto the A4.
On the middle flip I'm sure his rear wheel was levered off the tarmac.

I thought I was quick (within the speed limit) but that just took my breath away. He probably earned £4.50 for a Twickenham-WC2 and didn't even realise he'd almost given the following rider heart failure.

On GT550s.... I always thought they were a bit 'corporate, and they had that ignition cut-out on the stand, which was fragile and often got stuck on 'off'. Deceptively quick though, like a BMW R80.

Since this is a cycling forum, I also think Trek have done some great work recently. I really dig this season's colourways.

I'm loving my new Campag ergos.


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## doog (14 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> doog + brahan = oxygen thieves.



but would you say that to my face?




Unlikely. Debate a subject pal but personal insults like this are uncalled for.


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

1611434 said:


> Are you sure that you aren't a troll?




Quite sure, but I got all moto-courier-nostalgic for a moment.

In truth, two of my bikes use ergos and a few of my kids' bikes have the less beautiful Shimano ones where you have to use the brake lever... I'm not loving those.

 

But I also adore motorcycles (with nostalgia) and cars (in the present).


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## BentMikey (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> but would you say that to my face?
> 
> 
> 
> Unlikely. Debate a subject pal but personal insults like this are uncalled for.



I quite probably would, but OTOH I'm quite certain you'd never speak to Magnatom's face as you've posted here. Oh, and don't PM me again, else I'll report you to the moderators.


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## doog (14 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> I quite probably would, but OTOH I'm quite certain you'd never speak to Magnatom's face as you've posted here. Oh, and don't PM me again, else I'll report you to the moderators.






its not an offence to pm , I thought I would do that before reporting you..obviously didnt work..lets let the mods sort it then


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## Mugshot (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> its not an offence to pm , I thought I would do that before reporting you..obviously didnt work..lets let the mods sort it then



I'm quite sure I shouldn't ask this, but I'm going to anyway, are you threatening to report BM for calling you an oxygen thief?


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## doog (14 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> I'm quite sure I shouldn't ask this, but I'm going to anyway, are you threatening to report BM for calling you an oxygen thief?



I pm'd him to ask why he insulted me in such a manner.. he threatened to report me for sending him the pm? make of that what you will....

I find the term 'oxygen thief' a bit of an insult..you clearly don't and neither does he which is sad. I guess it sums up the way bicycle forums are going.


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## Mugshot (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I find the term 'oxygen thief' a bit of an insult..you clearly don't and neither does he which is sad. I guess is sums up the way bicycle forums are going.



I didn't say I didn't find it insulting, I made no comment either way, I merely enquired.


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## mickle (14 Nov 2011)

Lord have mercy.


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## Dan B (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> its not an offence to pm , I thought I would do that before reporting you..obviously didnt work..lets let the mods sort it then



Priceless.


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## BentMikey (14 Nov 2011)

Doog, if you don't like negative opinions about you, perhaps you shouldn't post negative opinions about others, the OP for example here.


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## 400bhp (14 Nov 2011)

My daughter is 2 years old. She'd fit in well here.


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## Fab Foodie (14 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> My daughter is 2 years old. She'd fit in well here.


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## d87heaven (14 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> My daughter is 2 years old. She'd fit in well here.




Her superior intellect would baffles us. Play fair please.


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## doog (14 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> Doog, if you don't like negative opinions about you, perhaps you shouldn't post negative opinions about others, the OP for example here.



I dont mind negative opinions Bentmikey, just logging on tonight and noting your one off out of the blue keyboard warrior insult hit a nerve a guess.

As for the OP...get real, the bloke loves confrontation, clearly with lone female drivers and the rest. Im not into hero worshipping this type of stuff like some on here, to be honest his reactions are extreme to say the least.

But I guess it floats your boat..so thats okay then eh


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## BentMikey (14 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> My daughter is 2 years old. She'd fit in well here.



LOL, it's so much fun we all love it in here!!


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## col (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I dont mind negative opinions Bentmikey, just logging on tonight and noting your one off out of the blue keyboard warrior insult hit a nerve a guess.
> 
> As for the OP...get real, the bloke loves confrontation, clearly with lone female drivers and the rest. Im not into hero worshipping this type of stuff like some on here, to be honest his reactions are extreme to say the least.
> 
> But I guess it floats your boat..so thats okay then eh



You will learn what some are like


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## gaz (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I dont mind negative opinions Bentmikey, just logging on tonight and noting your one off out of the blue keyboard warrior insult hit a nerve a guess.
> 
> As for the OP...get real, the bloke loves confrontation, clearly with lone female drivers and the rest. Im not into hero worshipping this type of stuff like some on here, to be honest his reactions are extreme to say the least.
> 
> But I guess it floats your boat..so thats okay then eh



His reactions are extreme?
Perhaps you should watch this... or maybe not as you might not be able to handle it.

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePB6IHrL0Qw[/media]


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## Moderators (14 Nov 2011)

Great minds discuss ideas,
Average minds discuss events,
Small minds discuss people.
_- Eleanor Roosevelt_​Don't let it get personal - or it'll be closed.


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## 400bhp (14 Nov 2011)

Great vid - sounds like he is going to burst into tears.


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## doog (14 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> His reactions are extreme?
> Perhaps you should watch this... or maybe not as you might not be able to handle it.
> 
> [media]
> ]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePB6IHrL0Qw[/media]







dont you start ffs 

Im off back to touring...imagine all that stuff but with french lorry drivers


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## gaz (14 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> dont you start ffs
> 
> Im off back to touring...imagine all that stuff but with french lorry drivers



Just one more... make sure to check out the comments on the video.
[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIyG5BqjM10[/media]


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## d87heaven (14 Nov 2011)

I bet the doc loves taking that guys blood pressure if he cycles in!


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## magnatom (14 Nov 2011)

I pulled back from the forum a while ago as some of you will remember. Having popped back in, I now remember why I did it.

I just don't have the time and energy for this and so I am bowing out for good. 

There are lots of great people on this forum, but there are also those that post purely to have a little fun at others expense. Whilst I am used to that and it is just an annoyance these days it is an annoyance I can't be bothered with any more. I'm enjoying writing my blog, tweeting and writing the book. So I'll stick to that from now on.

As for the other video posted with the 'lady' who hit my arm. Yes I swore. Yes I saw red mist. Yes it does not show me in my best light, but I have always strived to show cycling warts and all, and that includes my own warts. That is my guiding principle, if I am willing to show others mistakes I must be willing to show my own. 

On that particular video I perhaps did not have the best road position, but did that give her the right to skim past me? I was in front of her, in clear view and the more vulnerable road user. Anyway, I'm sure there is a 50 page thread on this particular video somewhere, so look that up and resurrect it if you are interested.

Anyway, that's me for forums. If you want to know what I get up to, follow me on twitter. If you don't like who I am or what I do, then don't bother. To ensure I'm not tempted back I'll be asking Admin to de-reg me.

Safe cycling folks.


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## col (14 Nov 2011)

Until the next time you pop in eh?


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## Hip Priest (14 Nov 2011)

That TesterAnimal fella is hilarious. There are a few good cammers out there, who impress me with both their riding ability and behaviour on the roads - he isn't one of them.


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## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

I think I've just witnessed my first cycle-forum flounce.

(Exit Magnatom stage left)

People write the most dreadful things about me on here too...

I'd like to say it hurts, but I can't really do so when much of it is true.


----------



## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

1611462 said:


> Now that is top notch successful bullying.




By whom?

Of whom?


----------



## Mugshot (14 Nov 2011)

1611462 said:


> Now that is top notch successful bullying.



Relentless and devastatingly effective.


----------



## Hip Priest (14 Nov 2011)

Struck me as a joke, not bullying. The majority of people on this thread were complimentary about the OP's vid. And the minority who offered criticism have been called names and all sorts.


----------



## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

1611464 said:


> As shown above.




I'm not sure that's fair.

I'd agree that the OP was impolite in blocking the Freelander after filtering past it, excessive in his response to the driver, not in control of his temper and not cycling with the roadcraft he seems to expect from others...

...but I wouldn't call him a bully.


----------



## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Struck me as a joke, not bullying. The majority of people on this thread were complimentary about the OP's vid. And the minority who offered criticism have been called names and all sorts.



Quite.

I've been ridiculed for saying what I thought.

My posts have elicited the response "Bollox" and several suggestions hat I am not a cyclist, that I'm a troll or that I somehow covertly favour cars over bicycles.

There's also been a lot of polite and resoned discussion on this thread.

Having posted a spoof response to the bullying accusation a moment ago, this is my serious one. 

Most contributors were supportive of the OP's clip. I found it ghastly, crass and trite and I and was not supportive, but I was put back in my box with some force.

That is the nature of the online forum.


----------



## funnymummy (14 Nov 2011)

I quite often post links on my FB from YouTube, occasionaly i've later found out they were from some one here.
I love the responses they get, most of my non-cycling friends are now even more terrified of ever getting on a bike LOL!


----------



## threebikesmcginty (14 Nov 2011)

Another thread ruined.


----------



## Bicycle (14 Nov 2011)

1611468 said:


> The bloke has just been driven out and you post this as a joke? Brilliant on every level.




Not quite a joke, but not entirely serious.

I think I've attracted more negative comment than he has, by some margin.

Also, if he's gone he won't see the comment you find so distasteful.

I don't insult him anywhere on this thread.

He put the clip up for approval. He got a lot. He also got the contrary view from me.

I stand by every word I wrote. I don't find it helpful to have accusations of bullying tossed around.

I'm happy to be wrong on this, but if I am I'd like to see an example of where I was bullying Magnatom prior to his notice that he was leaving.


----------



## Mugshot (14 Nov 2011)

1611468 said:


> The bloke has just been driven out and you post this as a joke? Brilliant on every level.



Were you serious about what you posted below?



1611462 said:


> Now that is top notch successful bullying.


----------



## Crackle (14 Nov 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Another thread ruined.



Edit: Scrap my response. I'm not sure now if you were joking or not. Too tired to tell, so I'll delete my lame humour. You'll have to pm me for it now.


----------



## col (14 Nov 2011)

My thought on this , is he had too many arguments against his techniques than for.


----------



## Mugshot (14 Nov 2011)

1611476 said:


> Why do you ask?



Just wondering how it sat with your other comment.



1611468 said:


> The bloke has just been driven out and you post this as a joke? Brilliant on every level.


----------



## snorri (14 Nov 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> Another thread ruined.


Yes, but there was plenty of time for passengers to take to the lifeboats. 
There's something to be said for locking threads after four pages, the OP by that time has usually had an adequate response.


----------



## lukesdad (14 Nov 2011)

Give over Adrian, Magnatom has done this before. Its done for effect. he s in and out of here like a fiddlers elbow. 

Check your comments on public flouncing shall I give you a link ?


----------



## col (14 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Give over Adrian, Magnatom has done this before. Its done for effect. he s in and out of here like a fiddlers elbow.




Goes like a privvy door when the plagues in town


----------



## col (14 Nov 2011)

1611483 said:


> If you are comfortable with your behaviour, fair enough.



Iv had some ding dongs with magnatron in the passed. I dissagreed with most of his filming techniques, and yes Im very comfortable with it too.


----------



## Mugshot (14 Nov 2011)

1611479 said:


> Ah got it, I think. You are suggesting that my commenting on Bicycle's crass insensitivity is comparable to the campaign of bullying that drove Magnatom to flounce?



I'm not sure anymore, I thought you had posted a comment from lukesdad which suggested magnatoms departure was a little rash and demonstrated a rather sensitive nature, I thought you were trying to amuse, I certainly didn't see what you had posted as showing a campaign of bullying. When Bicycle then posted what (I thought) he felt was a light hearted response to yours, you pulled him up on it, but then I didn't see that as crass insensitivity. I guess I've got it wrong all ends up or it's a question of perceptions.


----------



## 400bhp (15 Nov 2011)

No you haven't mugshot.

Sounds like people being outraged on someone elses behalf to me.


----------



## BentMikey (15 Nov 2011)

I'd forgotten about TesterAnimal1, nice one Gaz. There's a US cyclist who sometimes also gets quite cross, CycleMan2200, IIRC. Not quite as extreme, and of course the issue is confounded slightly by Leftpondians' much greater need for time and space, i.e. they get upset with the closeness of passes that to us Londoners would be totally fine. Different driving and road cultures, I suppose.

Oh, and this guy must be the winner for the worst voice ever in camera cyclists:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emfJRhymkBQ


----------



## marafi (15 Nov 2011)

Brilliant and well done on you!! Hurray majority of the time i shout OIiiiii or laugh or wave at them as i pass by. Honstely! Amazing and beautiful accent you have there too!


----------



## dellzeqq (15 Nov 2011)

Moderators said:


> *Great minds discuss ideas,
> Average minds discuss events,
> Small minds discuss people.
> *_*- Eleanor Roosevelt*_​Don't let it get personal - or it'll be closed.


you've waited years to use that one!!!!!!!!!!!! Brilliant!


----------



## Matty (15 Nov 2011)

At the risk of referring to the original post, how on earth can folk sit in that queue day after day after day ...........


----------



## d87heaven (15 Nov 2011)

Some of them don't have a choice unfortunately.


----------



## 400bhp (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> Some of them don't have a *choice* unfortunately.



That's always an interesting one.

There is usually a choice, its just that people dont want to hear they do.


----------



## Bicycle (15 Nov 2011)

Matty said:


> At the risk of referring to the original post, how on earth can folk sit in that queue day after day after day ...........




It's odd, isn't it?

But I've done it and still have to occasionally.

It is extremely expensive, not good for stress levels and just doesn't get you to your destination in a happy-happy mindset.

It can be OK on the way home, because it gives you a time buffer between work and relaxing/cooking/reading to dhildren.

Having said that, it is not as good as the time buffer offered by a nice ride and the obligatory 30-minute crash-out on a sofa.

I think people just carry on doing what they've always done. The perception that cars give us enormous freedom is broadly accurate, but not in allcircumstances.

It's odd to see too, how many cars have a single occupant. I have no issue with that per se, but for all those people in traffic it would be so much better if they'd share their car. People are funny about sharing things, I think.

I car-shared for about a year once to keep my parking space and it was good - to my surprise. Never went in his car, as I cycled on his driving days, but he always gave me a friendly toot as he went by. 

I just adore cars, but i think more people would stop commuting in them if they did the maths on variable costs.

As employers start to reduce parking space and charge for its use, I think more people will cycle - and I think they'll be surprised how much they enjoy it.


----------



## d87heaven (15 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> That's always an interesting one.
> 
> There is usually a choice, its just that people dont want to hear they do.




So how would you suggest a builder transports all his equipment to be at a customers say?
What about the teacher with 200 school school books, art supplies etc?
What about the parent having to drop off the kids at 2 different schools 10 miles apart and having to get to work afterwards?


----------



## Mugshot (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> So how would you suggest a builder transports all his equipment to be at a customers say?
> What about the teacher with 200 school school books, art supplies etc?
> What about the parent having to drop off the kids at 2 different schools 10 miles apart and having to get to work afterwards?





400bhp said:


> There is *usually* a choice, its just that people dont want to hear they do.


----------



## snorri (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> What about the teacher with 200 school school books, art supplies etc?



Yes, I remember it well. There was no car park at my school, just a space where the teachers parked their barrows which they used to carry all the books to and from school every day.


----------



## Mugshot (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> So how would you suggest a builder transports all his equipment to be at a customers say?



I read an article in some bike mag about 12 months ago about a plasterer that cycles to work. I think, if memory serves, that he would drive in the one day and dump his gear, cycle the rest of the time he was on that job, then drive in again to pick his gear up.


----------



## 400bhp (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> So how would you suggest a builder transports all his equipment to be at a customers say?
> What about the teacher with 200 school school books, art supplies etc?
> What about the parent having to drop off the kids at 2 different schools 10 miles apart and having to get to work afterwards?



See Mugshot's reply.


----------



## doog (15 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> I read an article in some bike mag about 12 months ago about a plasterer that cycles to work. I think, if memory serves, that he would drive in the one day and dump his gear, cycle the rest of the time he was on that job, then drive in again to pick his gear up.



He was lucky ! builders etc tend not to leave their gear / tools on site overnight nowadays due to the thieving (not oxygen type) population of this country.

In addition finding work within cycling distance is usually as rare as rocking horse stuff.


----------



## dellzeqq (15 Nov 2011)

Matty said:


> At the risk of referring to the original post, how on earth can folk sit in that queue day after day after day ...........


quite. Hence my thing about us being happier, healthier, sexier and beautiliciouser.


----------



## dellzeqq (15 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> I read an article in some bike mag about 12 months ago about a plasterer that cycles to work. I think, if memory serves, that he would drive in the one day and dump his gear, cycle the rest of the time he was on that job, then drive in again to pick his gear up.


commonplace these days. Safe storage for tools essential, mind


----------



## Jezston (15 Nov 2011)

Just read through this thread - what a rollercoaster and generally quite a depressing read.

A great deal of not at all 'fun and friendly' behaviour shown here.


----------



## Matthew_T (15 Nov 2011)

snorri said:


> Oh you are a tease.
> Look out for his new one of the traffic lights he thought were going to change, but they didn't.




That wasnt my fault.


----------



## Origamist (15 Nov 2011)

Jezston said:


> Just read through this thread - what a rollercoaster and generally quite a depressing read.
> 
> A great deal of not at all 'fun and friendly' behaviour shown here.



Well, it certainly had the predictable ups and downs of a ride at Blackpool Pleasure Beach, but these video threads are more like Punch and Judy shows; what with the repetitious succession of encounters, knockabout humour, unsavoury undertones and everyone gleefully hollering like kids: "That's the way to do it".


----------



## Matthew_T (15 Nov 2011)

Origamist said:


> Well, it certainly had the predictable ups and downs of a ride at Blackpool Pleasure Beach, but these video threads are more like Punch and Judy shows; what with the repetitious succession of encounters, knockabout humour, unsavoury undertones and everyone gleefully hollering like kids: "That's the way to do it".




Well thats us


----------



## Norm (15 Nov 2011)

Matthew_T said:


> That wasnt my fault.


   

Brilliant.


----------



## MrHappyCyclist (15 Nov 2011)

Matty said:


> At the risk of referring to the original post, how on earth can folk sit in that queue day after day after day ...........


I find myself saying that, but when I think about it, the queueing really isn't the issue at all. When I used the car, I used to listen to the Today programme on radio 4, which I enjoyed. Despite the queueing, my journey time was a bit shorter than it is on my bike, and the bike journey is a lot longer if I include the time to pack and unpack panniers, wash and dry, and get changed. The changing is necessary as I am dripping with sweat when I get there and it would take me a long time to get there without breaking sweat.

The main difference I see is that the people in the queues mostly have fat bellies like I used to have, and that's the motivation for me.


----------



## d87heaven (15 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> See Mugshot's reply.



Wasn't an answer to my three examples was it.


----------



## fossyant (15 Nov 2011)

Well either blame Wiggle for yet another post going down to a slanging match, or yourselves.

Shame really.


----------



## Mugshot (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> So how would you suggest a builder transports all his equipment to be at a customers say?
> What about the teacher with 200 school school books, art supplies etc?
> What about the parent having to drop off the kids at 2 different schools 10 miles apart and having to get to work afterwards?



1) It would probably be more sensible for him to use a van rather than try to shove it all in panniers.
2) It would probably be more sensible for them to use the boot of a car rather than shove them all in panniers.
3) It would probably be more sensible for them to use a car, however it may depend on the age of the children and whether or not there is any school transport available. Maybe they live close to another parent and they could take it in turns driving the children to school.

There are situations where using a motorised vehicle would be preferable to using a bicycle, when transporting bricks for example, however, sometimes, though not always, people could cycle rather than driving.

Hence



400bhp said:


> There is *usually* a choice, its just that people dont want to hear they do.







d87heaven said:


> Wasn't an answer to my three examples was it.



So I think it may have been.


----------



## d87heaven (15 Nov 2011)

Why use one posting when many more will do. Jeezz this forum is hard work.


----------



## Mugshot (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> Wasn't an answer to my three examples was it.



Was.

That better?


----------



## 400bhp (15 Nov 2011)

Thanks!


----------



## d87heaven (15 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Was.
> 
> That better?



Much better. And it displays the point in a fine manner that some people do have to use a vehicle as there is not a usable alternative.


----------



## 400bhp (15 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> Much better. And it displays the point in a fine manner that some people do have to use a vehicle as there is not a usable alternative.



Completely agree.


----------



## Mugshot (15 Nov 2011)

Group hug


----------



## Matthew_T (15 Nov 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> I find myself saying that, but when I think about it, the queueing really isn't the issue at all. When I used the car, I used to listen to the Today programme on radio 4, which I enjoyed. Despite the queueing, my journey time was a bit shorter than it is on my bike, and the bike journey is a lot longer if I include the time to pack and unpack panniers, wash and dry, and get changed. The changing is necessary as I am dripping with sweat when I get there and it would take me a long time to get there without breaking sweat.
> 
> The main difference I see is that the people in the queues mostly have fat bellies like I used to have, and that's the motivation for me.




I find myself getting really bored and annoyed when I am out with the family on a long journey somewhere and we end up getting stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway. I recall one such instance where we were going on holiday and get stuck behind a large crash. 
We were only stationary for 1 hour but I was being a good samaritan and telling other drivers of what had happened. they were very grateful. 

I hate getting stuck in traffic jams. Its one benefit of being on a bike, you can slip past everyone. I love it in summer when I am passing everyone and just watching them all get annoyed.


----------



## MrHappyCyclist (15 Nov 2011)

Matthew_T said:


> Its one benefit of being on a bike, you can slip past everyone. I love it in summer when I am passing everyone and just watching them all get annoyed.


Yes, I must admit, that part is fun


----------



## Jezston (15 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611519"]

(warning, soundtrack NSFW)

[/quote]

I'm going to assume it's that "let the bodies hit the floor" song and thus I refuse to hit play.


----------



## Mugshot (15 Nov 2011)

User I love it, that's gone on to my bucket list!


----------



## Grizzly (15 Nov 2011)

Oh the banter! 

Dawsome says "so they lash out at an out-group", so you're saying I've came out??? Wonder if the wife knows!


----------



## Grizzly (15 Nov 2011)

I got to the bottom of the first page of comments and didn't realise that there was another 23 pages




Sorry if my post doesn't follow the flow of the thread.


----------



## d87heaven (15 Nov 2011)

Grizzly said:


> I got to the bottom of the first page of comments and didn't realise that there was another 23 pages
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if my post doesn't follow the flow of the thread.




Don't worry you didn't miss anything. Col gave up writing in English about 10 pages ago so your post fits in wonderfully.


----------



## Bicycle (15 Nov 2011)

Matthew_T said:


> I find myself getting really bored and annoyed when I am out with the family on a long journey somewhere and we end up getting stuck in a traffic jam on the motorway.



OT, but I was born OT:

When I was seven or eight, we were driving from London to the Lake District for a half-term week and traffic just STOPPED on the Motorway for hours.

We children were all deeply bored, but I heard my father say there'd been a *pile-up* somewhere ahead of us.

I'd never heard the expression before and imagined a pile of cars, as one might throw toys into a heap five high.

My disappointment when we crawled later past a couple of dented Humbers and a Ford Anglia was immense.


----------



## mr_hippo (16 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> Oh, and this guy must be the winner for the worst voice ever in camera cyclists:



What a lovely comment that is! What does it add to the topic and would you say that to his face?


----------



## Mugshot (16 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> What a lovely comment that is! What does it add to the topic and would you say that to his face?



Shouldn't this be on the driver confrontation thread?


----------



## BentMikey (16 Nov 2011)

LOL! Just seen that thanks to mugshot's quote. Would you like a comment on your voice, mr_hippo? 

btw, don't bother answering, I won't see it anyway.


----------



## doog (16 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> What a lovely comment that is! What does it add to the topic *and would you say that to his face*?



hang on a minute, he needs to say something to my face first . Can we all form an orderly queue.





Also, having looked at the OP's blog (I know- I shouldnt have clicked on it) but Ive noticed he is attempting to get one of his infamous videos as the No1 google search for 'I hate cyclists' - or at least he thinks it will be ' fun' if this happens.

Now remind me what the point of his original post was ? (on second thoughts dont bother- the moments gone)


----------



## col (16 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> I quite probably would, but OTOH I'm quite certain you'd never speak to Magnatom's face as you've posted here. Oh, and don't PM me again, else I'll report you to the moderators.



How do you know this? Oh sorry I forgot he is a black belt in some wrestling game isnt he, which he seems to mention when you dissagree with him


----------



## col (16 Nov 2011)

d87heaven said:


> Don't worry you didn't miss anything. Col gave up writing in English about 10 pages ago so your post fits in wonderfully.



There ya go, was that one english enough


----------



## doog (16 Nov 2011)

col said:


> How do you know this? Oh sorry I forgot he is a black belt in some wrestling game isnt he, which he seems to mention when you dissagree with him



Im getting this now. Heaven help the motorists of Torquay should this guy ever get into cycling

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAplLdU_TMo[/media]


----------



## Dan_h (16 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> Im getting this now. Heaven help the motorists of Torquay should this guy ever get into cycling
> 
> [media]
> ]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAplLdU_TMo[/media]




LOL - I am a bit concerned that this may give one or two people on here a few ideas


----------



## goo_mason (16 Nov 2011)

col said:


> How do you know this? Oh sorry I forgot he is a black belt in some wrestling game isnt he, which he seems to mention when you dissagree with him




Judo.

And he didn't mention it if you disagreed with him, Col. I've told you a million times - do not exaggerate!


----------



## Moderators (16 Nov 2011)

A number of posters have been given a short-term ban from this thread. Please concentrate on the argument rather than attacking the poster.

Thank you.


----------



## Silver Fox (16 Nov 2011)

Moderators said:


> A number of posters have been given a short-term ban from this thread. Please concentrate on the argument rather than attacking the poster.
> 
> Thank you.




And I thought the old P+L was lively, Commuting seems to be where its at.


----------



## Bicycle (16 Nov 2011)

Moderators said:


> A number of posters have been given a short-term ban from this thread. Please concentrate on the argument rather than attacking the poster.
> 
> Thank you.




I'm trying to look as if I'm 'concentrating on the argument', but the truth is I'm fascinated by this notion of a three-game ban and am posting this to see if I'm included in it...

... Whilst at the same time agreeing up to a point with many of the opinions stated on this thread and finding some points of contention in one or two others...

Everyone should be lovely to everyone else in traffic.


----------



## lukesdad (16 Nov 2011)

Silver Fox said:


> And I thought the old P+L was lively, Commuting seems to be where its at.




They do have certain similarities.


----------



## 400bhp (16 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I'm trying to look as if I'm 'concentrating on the argument', but the truth is I'm fascinated by this notion of a three-game ban and am posting this to see if I'm included in it...
> 
> ... Whilst at the same time agreeing up to a point with many of the opinions stated on this thread and finding some points of contention in one or two others...
> 
> Everyone should be lovely to everyone else in traffic.



Man, what a utopian world you live in.


----------



## 400bhp (16 Nov 2011)

Silver Fox said:


> And I thought the old P+L was lively, Commuting seems to be where its at.



It's feckin AWESOME here.

Come and join us, we have fun on a MASSIVE scale.


----------



## goo_mason (16 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> hang on a minute, he needs to say something to my face first . Can we all form an orderly queue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're being a bit disingenuous here. He said that if you Google 'Hate Cyclists' his video showing him filtering endlessly through through huge tailbacks comes up on the 2nd results page. He though it would be funny if it was the number one result for 'hate cyclists', and I think most reasonable people would realise why that would be funny in an ironic way. It's hardly one of his 'infamous videos', and his 'attempt' to get it to number one is obviously a tongue-in-cheek comment

For those who want to make up their own mind, the blog entry is here.


----------



## doog (16 Nov 2011)

goo_mason said:


> You're being a bit disingenuous here. He said that if you Google 'Hate Cyclists' his video showing him filtering endlessly through through huge tailbacks comes up on the 2nd results page. He though it would be funny if it was the number one result for 'hate cyclists', and I think most reasonable people would realise why that would be funny in an ironic way. It's hardly one of his 'infamous videos', and his 'attempt' to get it to number one is obviously a tongue-in-cheek comment
> 
> For those who want to make up their own mind, the blog entry is here.



I guess I can only go on what I have seen or read. I have seen three of his videos, one of him chasing down and confronting a female motorist after she gestured at him. The second of him gesturing at a taxi and the confrontation that ensued and the third in that blog. There must be loads more I guess.

I need to be careful in what I say here because in his blog he is wearing a cyclechat jersey and I dont want to inflame things or get a ban. Having watched the two videos I am struggling to see the irony in his blog comments when the evidence of his antics is plain for all to see.

If it was Mr non confrontational cyclist who had posted a one off video that got 1 million hits then a reasonable person might see the irony. What i see is someone who has worked bloody hard in pushing his 1 million hits and is enjoying his cult status in the process.

To jump on here every now and then and come over as Mr innocent is questionable.

Look at the clip below at 1.13 and tell me that taxi driver didnt give him enough room despite him (Mr Magnatom) sitting in the *middle* of an empty lane. How can any reasonable person agree with his actions and defend them? Look at his gesture towards the taxi driver yet he chased down the female motorist in this thread who gestured at him.

Read the comments to the right of clip.. some of them are shocking but true...one calls him a hypocrite, the guy who hates a female gesturing at him but whom will gladly do the same to another motorist?

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/user/magnatom#p/u/4/Ile7qM958d4[/media]


----------



## goo_mason (16 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I guess I can only go on what I have seen or read. I have seen three of his videos, one of him chasing down and confronting a female motorist after she gestured at him. The second of him gesturing at a taxi and the confrontation that ensued and the third in that blog. There must be loads more I guess.
> 
> I need to be careful in what I say here because in his blog he is wearing a cyclechat jersey and I dont want to inflame things or get a ban. Having watched the two videos I am struggling to see the irony in his blog comments when the evidence of his antics is plain for all to see.
> 
> ...





Erm.. read the comment beneath the video. His issue with the guy was NOT a close pass, but that he was too close behind him: "This driver stopped after I made an indication that he had been too close behind me (Palm pushing sign)"

The driver's problem was NOT Magnatom's being 'in the middle of an empty lane'. It was because he apparently 'pulled out in front of a car' whilst he was already going round a roundabout. Not sure of the taxi driver's logic - I think he was trying to come up with any excuse to cover himself.

Secondly - he didn't chase the woman down - they both got stopped at traffic lights ahead, where he asked her what she was saying. Not in any confrontational way (unless you think anyone with a Glaswegian accent is intimidating). She was the one who rolled the window down and launched into the foul-mouthed abuse.

You really seem intent on twisting the facts to suit your bias.

And can you explain the comment "I need to be careful in what I say here because in his blog he is wearing a cyclechat jersey and I dont want to inflame things or get a ban"?


----------



## gaz (16 Nov 2011)

goo_mason said:


> Erm.. read the comment beneath the video. His issue with the guy was NOT a close pass, but that he was too close behind him: "This driver stopped after I made an indication that he had been too close behind me (Palm pushing sign)"
> 
> The driver's problem was NOT Magnatom's being 'in the middle of an empty lane'. It was because he apparently 'pulled out in front of a car' whilst he was already going round a roundabout. Not sure of the taxi driver's logic - I think he was trying to come up with any excuse to cover himself.
> 
> ...



ZING


----------



## doog (17 Nov 2011)

goo_mason said:


> Erm.. read the comment beneath the video. His issue with the guy was NOT a close pass, but that he was too close behind him: "This driver stopped after I made an indication that he had been too close behind me (Palm pushing sign)"
> 
> The driver's problem was NOT Magnatom's being 'in the middle of an empty lane'. It was because he apparently 'pulled out in front of a car' whilst he was already going round a roundabout. Not sure of the taxi driver's logic - I think he was trying to come up with any excuse to cover himself.
> 
> ...




I daresay all taxi drivers are well versed in the mysterious 'palm pushing sign.'......I just see a gesture and I guess he (the taxi driver did to). As you seem intent on pushing this perhaps you can explain, on the OP's behalf, why he feels the need for so much confrontation.

I was commuting when he was in nappies yet can count on one hand the number of confrontations I have had. Could it be I dont have a camera on my head and the need to reach 1 million youtube hits.

You strike me as blind follower of his antics..and antics they are. If he felt the taxi driver was to close for example, why did sit in the middle of the lane and raise the ante and antagonise him? ...you are commenting on what you cant see.I also liked the way you ignored his position prior to the confrontation, a gesture and 'your not passing me' road position would rile any motorist. 

As for comment about the ban, read the posts earlier....the Glaswegian accent ? My family are from Motherwell...so try another one, poor effort.


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## dellzeqq (17 Nov 2011)

sorry..........couldn't resist!


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## Bicycle (17 Nov 2011)

I find myself sitting closer to the fence than the posters in the last couple of pages, but by no means on it.

The Internat is an interesting place to post: If you're looking for people to endorse your theory that Ghengis Khan is alive and well and living in Hoffenheim, you will find them. The fact that Magnatom has his hardline supporters and gainsayers is no surprise.

There will always be slavish adhenrents to a fringe poster; just as there will also always be people who post the contrary view.

Not wanting to throw a match on tinder (or indeed throw a spent match on an already-roaring fire) I have to say I find Magnatom does little to promote cycling, either among cyclists or non-cyclists.

If the Average Joe (Josephine) has a peep at one of his vids out of the blue, how might they react?

1. Magnatom looks jolly angry. 

2. He sounds jolly angry.

3. When he finds himself witty and amusing (the VED monologue) many road users might see just a tinge of self regard and perhaps something more serious.

4. I would not be at all surprised if many road users saw this chap as a tireless self-publicist. I'm not saying I do, but the thought is there. The blog is dull, the vids are strange, the man is slightly angry. The book will be a hoot.

There are helpful HelmetCammers who put good, interesting, real-world clips online. It sticks in my craw to endorse any, but my children have been encouraged to have an occasional peep at SillyCyclists. 

I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER suggest that my cycling children watch Magnatom, Traffic Droid or other members of the AngryCam Tendency. To me, that is a significant pointer. Would you want your cycling children to watch this stuff?

No!

I don't want them to think it's OK to ride like that.

I don't want them to think it's OK to get all squawky and aggressive about the tiniest thing.

I don't want them thinking it's OK to ride in a way that some road users might see as 'looking for confrontation'.

I don't want them to think it's OK (under any circumstances) to verbally abuse other road users like that.

I don't really even want them giving witty lectures on the UK tax system at traffic junctions...

Mr Magnatom, I know you're no longer on this forum because people are horrid and you have a book, a blog a Twitter account and some progeny to concentrate on... But if you are:

None of the drivers you encounter in your vids will feel inclined to be any more helpful, considerate or accommodating towards the next cyclist they encounter.

They may even feel slightly less inclined.


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## Mugshot (17 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> sorry..........couldn't resist!



Well it's about time!!


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## BSRU (17 Nov 2011)

I had the great pleasure of hold a car up this morning .

Riding along at about 20mph, on a road with parked cars on either side, oncoming traffic and the only position I could take where the car behind could overtake me would have been if I were riding on the pavement.

The car driver using his huge intellect could no work out that there was no room for any sort of overtake good or bad, so they decided on driving less than a third of second behind my rear wheel whilst beeping their horn. When the oncoming traffic cleared they sped past to join the end of the queueing traffic .

That'll teach to wear a helmet camera .


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## gaz (17 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I daresay all taxi drivers are well versed in the mysterious 'palm pushing sign.'......I just see a gesture and I guess he (the taxi driver did to). As you seem intent on pushing this perhaps you can explain, on the OP's behalf, why he feels the need for so much confrontation.
> 
> I was commuting when he was in nappies yet can count on one hand the number of confrontations I have had. Could it be I dont have a camera on my head and the need to reach 1 million youtube hits.
> 
> ...


Is a palm pushing out a confrontation? If I recall correctly the taxi driver stopped and got out, that seems more confrontational that a palm pushing out.

Just because he posted about his stats, that makes him a hit seeker? I blogged about my 1 million views when I hit it earlier this year.

Funny how I take a "you're not passing me" position several times a day and rarely get any problems, does it really rile any motorist or is it just the idiots that think they are gods on the road?
His position is perfectly fine on this road, perhaps you should have a read about road positions and what to do when you are approaching a serries of parked cars.


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## theclaud (17 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I find myself sitting closer to the fence than the posters in the last couple of pages, but by no means on it.
> 
> The Internat is an interesting place to post: If you're looking for people to endorse your theory that Ghengis Khan is alive and well and living in Hoffenheim, you will find them. The fact that Magnatom has his hardline supporters and gainsayers is no surprise.
> 
> ...



What's with the weird spacing? I find it self-important. Can't you squash your posts up a bit, to take up less space?


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## 400bhp (17 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> What's with the weird spacing? I find it self-important. Can't you squash your posts up a bit, to take up less space?



Is there limited space here then?


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## 400bhp (17 Nov 2011)




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## theclaud (17 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> Is there limited space here then?



No. I'm offering advice. There's a lot of empty space in Bicycle's posts. An excess of nothing. Invisible filler. The rhetorical effects of this are unfortunate, though I suspect they are deliberate.


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## 400bhp (17 Nov 2011)

I wonder if he will take on board your advice.


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## theclaud (17 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> I wonder if he will take on board your advice.



My guess is that he won't. His loss.


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## StuartG (17 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> My guess is that he won't. His loss.


My gain. I like posts spaced like that. Makes them easier to read and the points to stand out. But then I'm starting to ask people to speak up a little and have increasing difficulty finding my glasses ...


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## theclaud (17 Nov 2011)

StuartG said:


> My gain. *I like posts spaced like that.* Makes them easier to read and the points to stand out. But then I'm starting to ask people to speak up a little and have increasing difficulty finding my glasses ...



Never mind that. Isn't it time for your cocoa?


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## StuartG (17 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Never mind that. Isn't it time for your cocoa?


Bit racy for me these days ...


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## Bicycle (17 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> No. I'm offering advice. There's a lot of empty space in Bicycle's posts. An excess of nothing. Invisible filler. The rhetorical effects of this are unfortunate, though I suspect they are deliberate.




Sir/Madam,

Thanks for the advice. I read all your posts with the enthusiasm of a puppy. I try my best, but my ability is modest. Ought I to learn from your posts, or is there some other route to brevity, sagacity and optimal spacing?

I shall try to address the excess of nothing and its unfortunate rhetorical effects. First, of course, I'll ask someone clever what that means, but then I'll address it.

The difficulty here is that as I search the echoing void that is my mind, an excess of nothing is just about all I have. In spades.

I hope you'll understand and be patient with me as I stumble barefoot and bleeding through the thorny briar that is the superfluity of my verbosity.

Further, regarding your point about taking up too much space: I read a few days ago that the Internet is nearly full!

I shall do all I can in the nearish future to cut down on the lengths of my posts and to stop leaving blank lines all the way through them.

Meanwhile, my thanks to you for reading my posts and taking them seriously enough to offer me guidance. It is through your kindness and my own clumsy travails that I'll start, slowly, to improve.

An excess of nothing is naughty and I am sorry. I am very sorry. 

By the way, how much nothing is OK? 

And on invisible filler.... If it's invisible, how do you know it's there? 

Anyway, I apologise. I really will try harder.


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## Norm (17 Nov 2011)




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## theclaud (17 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Sir/Madam,
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I read all your posts with the enthusiasm of a puppy. I try my best, but my ability is modest. Ought I to learn from your posts, or is there some other route to brevity, sagacity and optimal spacing?
> 
> ...



I'm clever like that.

I just didn't want you to labour under any delusion about this padded-out prolixity being any kind of innovation. There was a chap called something like "Gentleman Cyclist" a while back who did something similarly tiresome, and he was a bit of an arse, with literary pretensions. No idea what happened to him...


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## lukesdad (17 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> I'm clever like that.
> 
> I just didn't want you to labour under any delusion about this padded-out prolixity being any kind of innovation. There was a chap called something like "Gentleman Cyclist" a while back who did something similarly tiresome, and he was a bit of an arse, with literary pretensions. No idea what happened to him...




HE S BEHIND YOU ! Sorry a bit early but could nt resist


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## Crackle (17 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> HE S BEHIND YOU ! Sorry a bit early but could nt resist



He's not, he disappeared up his own..........He's not here anymore.......


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## theclaud (17 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> HE S BEHIND YOU ! Sorry a bit early but could nt resist



Eeek!


Behave. You're spoiling my fun.


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## Dan_h (17 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Further, regarding your point about taking up too much space: I read a few days ago that the Internet is nearly full!



Really? Can't we just get a bigger hard disk for the internet? Or should we all start posting in text speak?

pls hlp!


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## Andy_R (17 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Further, regarding your point about taking up too much space: I read a few days ago that the Internet is nearly full!



Utter tosh, It has been publicly announced that t'interweb spiders have plenty of wool and will carry on knitting t'interweb for as long as necessary. Tis so cos David Cameron says so.


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## StuartG (17 Nov 2011)

Andy_R said:


> Tis so cos David Cameron says so.



But isn't young Cleggie afraid of spiders? Indeed he did sign a petition to abolish all spiders. Surely he couldn't go back on that public promise ...


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## Bicycle (17 Nov 2011)

Guys... Seriously...

You know that sound you get when filling a bottle from a tap?

The pitch rises as the bottle fills...

Well I'm getting that now as I type!!

Seriously, the Internet is nearly full.

Please, no inane posts from anyone and no unnecessary gaps between lines of text.

Also, if you're going to post on a thread, please get to the point in the first line or so.

Under no circumstances should you just waffle on and on.

I did warn you!

Once the Internet is full, you'll be sorry!


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## Andy_R (17 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> The pitch rises as the bottle fills...



I thought that was because you jumped on your bike too quickly


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## Andy_R (17 Nov 2011)

reiver said:


> How long can a post be ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



nooooo.......stop wasting t'interweb. The knitting spiders can't keep up....

(By the way that was an awful lot of invisible filler...where did you find it all, B&Q?)


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## gambatte (17 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> HE S BEHIND YOU ! Sorry a bit early but could nt resist





Crackle said:


> He's not, he disappeared up his own..........He's not here anymore.......




Not got this 'ave you? 



Ooooh No He Isn't!!


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## goo_mason (17 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I daresay all taxi drivers are well versed in the mysterious 'palm pushing sign.'......I just see a gesture and I guess he (the taxi driver did to). As you seem intent on pushing this perhaps you can explain, on the OP's behalf, why he feels the need for so much confrontation.



If by 'pushing it' you mean countering someone posting blatant untruths, then yes, I think I am. However, if you really want to know why Magnatom does what he does, why not ask him on his blog? He's the best person to explain it all.



> I was commuting when he was in nappies yet can count on one hand the number of confrontations I have had. Could it be I dont have a camera on my head and the need to reach 1 million youtube hits.



What makes you think he has a 'need'? You're projecting your own interpretation as fact again.



> You strike me as blind follower of his antics..and antics they are. If he felt the taxi driver was to close for example, why did sit in the middle of the lane and raise the ante and antagonise him? ...you are commenting on what you cant see.I also liked the way you ignored his position prior to the confrontation, a gesture and 'your not passing me' road position would rile any motorist.


Blind follower? Well, you can believe what you want; that's your perogative. I'm sure if you search hard enough on here you'll find that I don't always agree with his videos. However, I'd prefer if you watched the video again and paid attention as you seem to have missed the point once again - Magnatom's road position had *nothing *to do with it. The driver plainly states the bizarre reason behind his behaviour was because Magnatom had pulled out on a car whilst on the roundabout earlier. 



> As for comment about the ban, read the posts earlier....the Glaswegian accent ? My family are from Motherwell...so try another one, poor effort.



Therefore I still don't understand your cryptic comment. I've been following the thread since the beginning, and don't see why a CC shirt in a video should mean you may get banned if you weren't careful. I wear a CC shirt, as do many of the members here. Does that mean you should be careful around us in case you get banned?

Anyway, there doesn't see to be much point continuing this discussion - if you want the answers you need, ask the OP via his blog. I'm sure he'll be delighted to engage with you.


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## doog (17 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> His position is perfectly fine on this road, perhaps you should have a read about road positions and what to do when you are approaching a serries of parked cars.



Hi Gaz, 40 years commuting and haven't read a book on it or road positions. I currently commute down the busiest road in Dorset, a major trunk road linking the South East to the South West, also links a major ferry port and have done so for the last 3 years without incident or confrontation. I cycled from Spain back to the UK in June- the French love cyclists but they drive like nutters all the same.

I guess Im qualified to post on the subject without someone telling me to go and read a book on it! 

The thing is Gaz, you can read all the books in the world about road positions but unless motorists read those same books....it means nothing.

How have I survived...? I go by the old adage that if there is a vehicle behind me I will move over slightly and let it pass. It doesnt slow my journey and why should I slow or obstruct the traffic flow?

The difference between me and the angry ninjas on here is that I ride defensively and am courteous to other road users, waving , nodding, making eye contact and riding *within my capabilities*.

I am friendly cyclist, not an aggressive cyclist looking for confrontation or the slightest excuse to lecture a motorist because he may have pulled out in front of me whilst I hurtled down a row of traffic at 28.5 mph like a loose cannon. I have my moments but have never *caused a reaction* like the OP has encountered again and again.

I wonder why?

If everyone was like me the world would be a better place Gaz




.

(right where's my egg to suck)


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## gaz (17 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> Hi Gaz, 40 years commuting and haven't read a book on it or road positions. I currently commute down the busiest road in Dorset, a major trunk road linking the South East to the South West, also links a major ferry port and have done so for the last 3 years without incident or confrontation. I cycled from Spain back to the UK in June- the French love cyclists but they drive like nutters all the same.
> 
> I guess Im qualified to post on the subject without someone telling me to go and read a book on it!
> 
> ...


Hahaha you really do think you are better than everyone else.
Perhaps you should look at the dates of the videos uploaded and see the gaps between the uploads. Understand that he cycles everyday to work and rarely uploads a video.
You don't see everything that happens on his commute, you don't see where he is courteous to other road users. Just because the only videos you see are of situations you don't find your self in, doesn't meant that he goes around shouting at people all the time or making trouble.


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## doog (17 Nov 2011)

goo_mason said:


> Anyway, there doesn't see to be much point continuing this discussion -



you crack on mate, smile at a few motorists tomorrow and the world be a much better place for us all


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## 400bhp (17 Nov 2011)

Well, I've just look on his blog and guess what story is on his front page.

"Magnatom Bashing", with a link to this thread (capital M and B too).

That's a bit pathetic IMO.


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## Origamist (17 Nov 2011)

Why is it that the people who claim to be models of affability when cycling and have hardly any confontations with other road users, seem so antagonistic and confrontational when posting on a cycling forum?


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## 400bhp (17 Nov 2011)

Stress relief 

There's a lot of posturing that goes on-guess in some ways they have taken the place of other societal activities to some extent.

There's probably a good book to be written on the psychology of internet forums (if it hasn't already been written).


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## doog (17 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> Hahaha you really do think you are better than everyone else.
> Perhaps you should look at the dates of the videos uploaded and see the gaps between the uploads. Understand that he cycles everyday to work and rarely uploads a video.
> You don't see everything that happens on his commute, you don't see where he is courteous to other road users. Just because the only videos you see are of situations you don't find your self in, doesn't meant that he goes around shouting at people all the time or making trouble.



Gaz. You can only comment on whats in front of you. I work with three cyclists, one part owns a cycling shop,organises and partakes in shop rides, all sensible lads who commute or have commuted extensively for many many years. Today we viewed the OP's youtube vids as a result of this thread.

These guys dont post on here and hadnt see the thread however as cyclists were shocked at what they saw. I cannot repeat what they said about the OP and his behaviour.

Im sorry but any attempts to condone his actions don't wash with me... HIS BEHAVIOUR ISNT NORMAL or indeed proportionate in many of his video's

If you think it is then we agree to disagree.


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## hennbell (17 Nov 2011)

We cyclist normally moan about the treatment we get from motorist, this thread is proof positive, that we are no better.

We see a small snippet of the posters commute by watching the video's posted. We see well less than 0.1% of his time on the road , and most of the interactions we see are when a bit of an incident has occurred.

Then we all get to take a pop at his driving position, aggressiveness, the way he goes of of the way to encourage motorist to react. We have no idea what happened for the rest of 99.9 % of the commute.

The one thing I know is that from the anonymity of the internet we are quick to announce opinions that we would never point out face to face. Really it is quite pathetic, from the comfort of our computer we act like school bullies. 

HIS BEHAVIOUR ISNT NORMAL - YOUR DAMM RIGHT, HE RIDES A BICYCLE IN THE WINTER IN GLASGOW, THAT IS FAR FROM NORMAL


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## Bicycle (17 Nov 2011)

I'm reading this thread with interest.

In between some puerile comments (often mine) there is some interesting discussion.

I tend to shy away from what sound or appear extreme views, but I find that I and many of the London and rural cyclists I know are not a million miles from the approach endorsed by Doog.

I've cycled for 40 years and driven for 30. My cycling is not a billion miles from what I was taught in the early 70s through Cycling Proficiency classes at my Primary School. This approach may seem antedeluvian to many, but as Doog says, it has done me pretty well and seems to have done him OK.

I don't think I know better than others (I'm not sure Doog thinks he does either) but I certainly baulk just a little (as he does) at some of the attitudes I read on this forum

Like Doog, I think a little courtesy, lots of eye contact and the awareness of an air gunner over Schweinfurt go a long way. 

I feel sometimes that this thread has allowed hard lines of difference to be carved out between cyclists whose real-world approaches are probably not dissimilar.

I've said this before, but to many road users the attitude of Magnatom is one that they would not really want their children to watch as an example of good riding. For me, that's the top line, the middle line and the bottom line.

In my hairy youth I was a motorcycle courier and I behaved slightly assertively (that's a euphemism). But I wouldn't have put tapes of myself doing so in the public arena as a model to other riders.

Quite by accident, I grew up. I still ride, but lack the courage for motorcycles in my grey middle age. 

Most road users who have been subject to or have witnessed a squawko-rant from Magnatom will have moved on with every excuse to take a dimmer view of cyclists from that moment.

Just as some cyclists damn every driver when they say "Typical Moton", there are other road users out there who will see Magnatom as a typical cyclist.

Which I find slightly sad....


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## gaz (17 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> Im sorry but any attempts to condone his actions don't wash with me... HIS BEHAVIOUR ISNT NORMAL or indeed proportionate in many of his video's



Care to point out some videos where he is acting irrationally?
Is he just speaking up for his safety and trying to make the roads a safer place or is he swearing at random people on the road for no reason?


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## doog (17 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> Care to point out some videos where *he is acting irrationally*?
> Is he just speaking up for his safety and trying to make the roads a safer place or is he swearing at random people on the road for no reason?



where did I say irrationally? I said his behaviour wasn't proportionate or normal. (is it normal to confront lone female motorists in the way he did?). 

I will also argue that his cycling isn't proportionate to some of the conditions he is encountering on the road.

For example...does the 'door zone' disappear when filtering at speed between two lanes of stationary traffic?....open to debate I guess...(note I said _at speed_)


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## ferret fur (17 Nov 2011)

> How have I survived...? I go by the old adage that if there is a vehicle behind me I will move over slightly and let it pass. It doesnt slow my journey and why should I slow or obstruct the traffic flow?



But... what if there isn't space for it to pass safely? Do you move over & allow it to overtake with insufficient room? The point is that in most of these videos there isn't the space to pass. That's why the videos are being posted. A lot of magnatom's videos are on urban dual carriageways. They are not wide enough to safely take 2 cars & a bike simultaneously. So where is the bike supposed to go. I'll give you a clue. The answer is primary. If drivers have a problem with that, they are in the wrong, It's not the cyclist ridng 'aggressively that's at fault here. You really are just victim blaming, something I find rather odd I have to say.
As for the 28.5 mph comment. Are you _seriously_ suggesting that the main cause of cars turning into the path of push bikes is due to the cyclist speeding?


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## 400bhp (17 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611585"]


*You have to understand that Mag has been posting vids for roughly 4 years* - etc


*
As mentioned I've had a few barneys with Mag over the years - *
[/quote]

Don't forget Lee, that some posters haven't been around that long and perhaps have only been recently introduced to his vids. So we have to understand (and take on board) their perceptions and first impressions. I'm guessing some of your barneys have been about his vids?

Rather than slagging off the "dissenters" I think it's worth listening and trying to understand why they have come to the conclusions (rightly or wrongly).

It's a shame but a lot of the time on here we (myself included) pick up on the minutae and verbatum, rather than looking at the bigger picture as to what the person is really saying-many people aren't great (well evidenced on this forum) of getting their point across in a valid way.


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## gaz (17 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> where did I say irrationally? I said his behaviour wasn't proportionate or normal. (is it normal to confront lone female motorists in the way he did?).
> 
> I will also argue that his cycling isn't proportionate to some of the conditions he is encountering on the road.
> 
> For example...does the 'door zone' disappear when filtering at speed between two lanes of stationary traffic?....open to debate I guess...(note I said _at speed_)


I wouldn't say it was normal to confront any driver, be it female or male. But that doesn't mean it is wrong to raise issues in the way that magnatom did, which was hardly fuelled by anger.


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## Bicycle (17 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> I wouldn't say it was normal to confront any driver, be it female or male. But that doesn't mean it is wrong to raise issues in the way that magnatom did, which was hardly fuelled by anger.




Gaz, he does seem to be fairly close to the edge of fury in a couple of clips.

He even says on this thread that the moment got to him on some occasions (or silmilar).

In the language of many, he simply lost his temper.

In my non-expert view, by engaging in dialogue (monologue) with drivers, he appears in a way to be tightening his own strings and somehow workingnhimself up.

It is not edifying and it is not a good advertisement for bicycle commuters.


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## doog (17 Nov 2011)

ferret fur said:


> But... what if there isn't space for it to pass safely? Do you move over & allow it to overtake with insufficient room? The point is that in most of these videos there isn't the space to pass. That's why the videos are being posted. *A lot of magnatom's videos are on urban dual carriageways. They are not wide enough to safely take 2 cars & a bike simultaneously. *So where is the bike supposed to go. I'll give you a clue. The answer is primary. If drivers have a problem with that, they are in the wrong, It's not the cyclist ridng 'aggressively that's at fault here. You really are just victim blaming, something I find rather odd I have to say.
> As for the 28.5 mph comment. Are you _seriously_ suggesting that the main cause of cars turning into the path of push bikes is due to the cyclist speeding?



very good point(the 28.5 mph point was tongue in cheek however)

You say the answer is primary and it may well be but is it proportionate for a cyclist to be adopting primary on an urban dual carriageway when he is or *may* be incapable of keeping up with traffic flow without causing an obstruction. (should they even be on it if as you suggest there is no room for a vehicle to pass)


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## gaz (17 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> It is not edifying and it is not a good advertisement for bicycle commuters.



I don't think any of us that video think that our videos are a good advertisement for cycling, even if there isn't a 'confrontation' or 'conversation'. That is a major downside to it and one that is hard to change (it is possible with lots of videos about how great cycling is, but people tend not to pass them around and they don't get as many views as the bad stuff).
Any new rider that watches the videos could very well be put off.

On a separate note.
People often comment that they think video camera cyclists play up to the camera. Talking to other road users may be out of the norm, but people who are taking to video cameras to display the issues they have on the roads are clearly trying to do something against bad drivers that they encounter, so there is bound to be the odd mention to the driver that their driving standards where poor. I personally try to avoid it as there is little you can do to change a drivers mindset.




doog said:


> very good point(the 28.5 mph point was tongue in cheek however)
> 
> You say the answer is primary and it may well be but is it proportionate for a cyclist to be adopting primary on an urban dual carriageway when he is or *may* be incapable of keeping up with traffic flow without causing an obstruction. (should they even be on it if as you suggest there is no room for a vehicle to pass)



I'm not sure the 'debate' of primary vs secondary is one worth going into. People have very conflicting opinions and each has it's pro's and con's for each situation. And the situations are different for each area. Just as long as you stay safe on the road, that is the most important thing.


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## doog (18 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> I don't think any of us that video think that our videos are a good advertisement for cycling, even if there isn't a 'confrontation' or 'conversation'. That is a major downside to it and one that is hard to change (it is possible with lots of videos about how great cycling is, but people tend not to pass them around and they don't get as many views as the bad stuff).
> Any new rider that watches the videos could very well be put off.
> 
> On a separate note.
> ...




fair do's

A31 at 7am tomorrow , I have 50 odd HGV's to be Mr nice guy to, nodding, waving ducking and diving (and the odd bit of cursing) ....soak it all up, repeat at 1600 hrs then give it hell on this forum after work


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## MacB (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> In my non-expert view, by engaging in dialogue (monologue) with drivers, he appears in a way to be tightening his own strings and somehow workingnhimself up.



Sadly I think that's his normal voice, I took the spaces out for you as well


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## ferret fur (18 Nov 2011)

Hmmm. Are you not slightly missing the point here? The reason why he posted the video was to show that _he's not the one holding everyone up! _Are you not making exactly the same mistake as the driver? It doesn't matter if the woman in the video has to pull out to overtake him, because she has been stuck in traffic for several miles & all that would have happened is that she would have got to a red light several seconds earlier. He isn't obstructing anybody, she just perceives he does, as do you. If he had been complaining in his vid that he got doored in the traffic jam then your post might have been apposite. As it is I really think you have been blinded by your own prejudice.
On a more general point. I will freely admit that there are certain roads that I am reluctant to ride down, that is my personal choice . Other people choose to cycle on them. They are entitled to be there. The fact that they are there is not an excuse for drivers to behave dangerously even if they do perceive that they are being 'held up'. It isn't the fault of the cyclist if someone chooses to endanger their safety due to impatience.


----------



## lukesdad (18 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> Well, I've just look on his blog and guess what story is on his front page.
> 
> "Magnatom Bashing", with a link to this thread (capital M and B too).
> 
> That's a bit pathetic IMO.



And he is still browsing the forum.

Some people just don t "get it" do they ?


----------



## mr_hippo (18 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> Care to point out some videos where he is acting irrationally?
> Is he just speaking up for his safety and trying to make the roads a saferplace or is he swearing at random people on the road for no reason?



How many examples do you want?
Let’s examine the video at the start of this thread – “…a driver waves and says something to me as they pass (difficult to see on camera)” and also difficult to hear! Assumptions are always dangerous but I assume that the car in question is RHD, the window was closed as well; that would put the driver about 6 feet away. Bearing in mind that there is traffic noise and other noises, how much noise would the woman have to generate to be heard? I can only assume that the cyclist was lip-reading but how many words can she say in about two seconds? That is how long it took her to pass the bike. Perhaps that ‘conversation’was in the speeded-up footage?
At the lights – cyclist said “You don’t even pay road tax.” But then he claims “And I do pay road tax, I do pay vehicle excise duty.”! So which does he pay – road tax, VED or both?
I will not waste my time on his greatest example of poor cycling – the tanker video, encountering a traffic hazard too fast, not be alert to other road users, etc.


----------



## gambatte (18 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> (should they even be on it if as you suggest there is no room for a vehicle to pass)


yes
They're another road user, they are 'traffic', same as horses, agricultural machinery. 

They're all allowed on the road and to take responsibility for their own safety, rather than relying on the intelligence of drivers to use restraint and only pass when safe.

In fact wasn't that the point that was made with the court case with Daniel Cadden?


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> I don't think any of us that video think that our videos are a good advertisement for cycling, even if there isn't a 'confrontation' or 'conversation'.
> 
> *A very fair point. I'm sorry; I wasn't clear in what I said. I meant his behaviour (with or without the recording) wasn't a good advertisement for cycling or cyclists. The fact that in the case of Magnatom the protagonist then posts it on line is a side issue. *
> 
> ...


----------



## gaz (18 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> [/size]I will not waste my time on his greatest example of poor cycling – the tanker video, encountering a traffic hazard too fast, not be alert to other road users, etc.[/font]


Next you will be saying that we should all stay in bed because cycling on the roads is too dangerous!

Replace mags with a car and run that situation again. Is the car still at fault because they took the roundabout too fast?


----------



## BSRU (18 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> I will not waste my time on his greatest example of poor cycling – the tanker video, encountering a traffic hazard too fast, not be alert to other road users, etc.



That's complete crap, of the highest order .


----------



## mr_hippo (18 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> Next you will be saying that we should all stay in bed because cycling on the roads is too dangerous!
> 
> Replace mags with a car and run that situation again. Is the car still at fault because they took the roundabout too fast?



Next I won't be saying stay in bed! You do not agree with my opinion, however wrong your opinion is you are entitled to it. He was too fast into the roundabout


----------



## gaz (18 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> Next I won't be saying stay in bed! You do not agree with my opinion, however wrong your opinion is you are entitled to it. He was too fast into the roundabout


So you think a car would be at fault if the same thing happened to them.


----------



## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Gaz, he does seem to be fairly close to the edge of fury in a couple of clips.


eh?

As in sublimated fury resulting in prolixity?

Happily I've found a way to shorten the pages!


----------



## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

ferret fur said:


> But... what if there isn't space for it to pass safely? Do you move over & allow it to overtake with insufficient room? The point is that in most of these videos there isn't the space to pass. That's why the videos are being posted. A lot of magnatom's videos are on urban dual carriageways. They are not wide enough to safely take 2 cars & a bike simultaneously. So where is the bike supposed to go. I'll give you a clue. *The answer is primary*. If drivers have a problem with that, they are in the wrong, It's not the cyclist ridng 'aggressively that's at fault here. You really are just victim blaming, something I find rather odd I have to say.
> As for the 28.5 mph comment. Are you _seriously_ suggesting that the main cause of cars turning into the path of push bikes is due to the cyclist speeding?


exactly. I don't envy him that commute, but if I did it I'd be four or five feet out from the kerb


----------



## Hip Priest (18 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> Next I won't be saying stay in bed! You do not agree with my opinion, however wrong your opinion is you are entitled to it. He was too fast into the roundabout



I struggle to see how anyone could blame Magnatom for what happened.

In fact, making such a derisory comment about what was obviously his most distressing incident just seems nasty to me.


----------



## ferret fur (18 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> Next I won't be saying stay in bed! You do not agree with my opinion, however wrong your opinion is you are entitled to it. He was too fast into the roundabout


This is so ludicrous it barely deserves an answer but since this is the internet here goes...

If he had been going more slowly, but happened to have set off from home 5 seconds earlier and therefore was slightly further forward in his journey (therefore on the roundabout at the same time as the tanker), would that have made any difference to the outcome of this incident? Nope, the cyclist still would have been nearly crushed by the lorry. It has nothing to do with the speed at which the cyclist entered the roundabout and everything to do with the speed at which the tanker did. (Together with his lack of observation and failure to give way to traffic on the roaundabout).
Sorry.
End of


----------



## 400bhp (18 Nov 2011)

[QUOTE 1611608"]
If the above is aimed at me then I have not slagged off anyone.
[/quote]

no it wasnt aimed at you.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> no it wasnt aimed at you.



Is it cos I dissed Bicycle's writin' style?


----------



## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

ferret fur said:


> This is so ludicrous it barely deserves an answer but since this is the internet here goes...
> 
> If he had been going more slowly, but happened to have set off from home 5 seconds earlier and therefore was slightly further forward in his journey (therefore on the roundabout at the same time as the tanker), would that have made any difference to the outcome of this incident? Nope, the cyclist still would have been nearly crushed by the lorry. It has nothing to do with the speed at which the cyclist entered the roundabout and everything to do with the speed at which the tanker did. (Together with his lack of observation and failure to give way to traffic on the roaundabout).
> Sorry.
> End of


exactly (this is becoming a habit)


----------



## 400bhp (18 Nov 2011)

It was aimed at the posts where there were some derogatory undertones. My term, slagging off, was I guess unclear.


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> eh?
> 
> As in sublimated fury resulting in prolixity?
> 
> Happily I've found a way to shorten the pages!



This is really an odd post and representative in part of a style of criticism I'm getting used to in this forum:

My prolixity ( you seem to imply) is a function of sublimated fury... 

I am too pro-car, say others ...

I am suspected of trolling to upset cyclists...

I just haven't got my head round the hegemony of the motor car....

My verbosity is a function of having nothing to say...

I am a cyclist, but not one who agrees with some of the stuff I see on this forum. If I wordily suggest that Magnatom, Traffic Droid and others are slightly angry, this is somehow part of the evidence of sublimation of my own fury through prolixity.

I am a wordy bastard. I have been since I could talk. 

On occasion, Magnatom does get pretty abusive in his videos. It is not edifying and it is not something I'd want to children to watch and to learn from. 

Most people who know me would say I don't have an angry bone in my body... But they may just be missing my hidden fury.

Cripes! Look out, it's all about to spill out online after being held in for nearly fifty years! I hope there's room for all my fury on the Internet.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

400bhp said:


> It was aimed at the posts where there were some derogatory undertones. *My term, slagging off, was I guess unclear.*



The term "dissenters" is unnecessarily flattering, I think.


----------



## Hip Priest (18 Nov 2011)

I'm quite enjoying the clash of opinion and style between theclaud and bicycle. 

Succinct & Catty v Verbose & Droll.


----------



## 400bhp (18 Nov 2011)

[observation mode] I wonder if there is a strong correlation between road positioning and age?

A graph of distance from the gutter on the y axis and age on the x axis would be downward sloping?

And one of where we [cyclists] see ourselves in the pecking order on roads.

A similar graph?

Is this education? Someone mentioned cycling proficiency tests. Did they stop in the 70's? Did they teach certain riding styles that would be deemed "out of date" now?


----------



## 400bhp (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> The term "dissenters" is unnecessarily flattering, I think.



Probably


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> This is really an odd post and representative in part of a style of criticism I'm getting used to in this forum:
> 
> My prolixity ( you seem to imply) is a function of sublimated fury...
> 
> ...



I'm not an especially close follower of his oeuvre, so I don't know whether there's any truth in this, but it certainly isn't the case in the video that opens this thread, which is rather amusing and shows a fairly good-natured response to an idiotically angry and abusive driver. And yet your entire contribution to this thread is to misrepresent the cyclist in the video. the children thing is absurd. Forgive me if we're a little bored with it, and if this weariness is exacerbated by your unwillingness to prune your ungainly poetry into something a bit more snappy.


----------



## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Forgive me if *we*'re a little bored with it



Is that the royal "we"?


----------



## Dan B (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> What's with the weird spacing? I find it self-important. Can't you squash your posts up a bit, to take up less space?



Yeah! Posting in the middle of the lane like that, you'll give us all a bad name. Just squish up and pull in to the left a bit to give the other posters space to get past. You don't pay for the forum, so stop whining


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Is that the royal "we"?



No, it's a breezily inclusive one. I don't pretend to speak for everyone, but if I'm alone in my distaste for Bicycle's uniquely tedious output, I'll eat my mudguards.


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> I'm not an especially close follower of his oeuvre, so I don't know whether there's any truth in this, but it certainly isn't the case in the video that opens this thread, which is rather amusing and shows a fairly good-natured response to an idiotically angry and abusive driver. And yet your entire contribution to this thread is to misrepresent the cyclist in the video. the children thing is absurd. Forgive me if we're a little bored with it, and if this weariness is exacerbated by your unwillingness to prune your ungainly poetry into something a bit more snappy.





Sir/Madam,

OK. Point taken.

I'll see what I can do about shortening my posts.

The 'children thing' is key to me. If someone is posting to raise awareness of shortfalls in the standards of driving, but is not behaving courteously on the roads, that isn't something I'd encourage my children to watch.

Bless you for reading and committing to memory my entire contribution to this thread, but I believe you may be wrong. Some of my entries contain nuggets quite unconnected with Magnatom. To tell the truth, I usually fall asleep halfway through reading one of my own posts, so I may be wrong.

You and I seem to disagree about the video opening the thread. I complimented some of it (the clever ending) but thought the rider was being a little self-indulgent and offensive. He also sought a dialogue the other party clearly did not want. Lecturing a traffic queue about VED may be your sort of funny, but it isn't mine. I prefer fart jokes.

Your fascination with my prose style (which I readily admit is shaky and varbose) just tickles me. Yours is fabulous. I worship it and aspire to getting somewhere near it if I live to be a hundred.

Meanwhile, I'll keep posting and I'll try to take on board any hints you have about my style.

Oh Bugger! I've just typed another marathon entry.... 

And it's full of gaps where none are needed.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Dan B said:


> Yeah! Posting in the middle of the lane like that, you'll give us all a bad name. Just squish up and pull in to the left a bit to give the other posters space to get past. You don't pay for the forum, so stop whining



My theory was a variant on Dellzeqq's - that Bicycle claims all the virtual space he can as a proxy for all the tarmac he cravenly surrenders yet secretly longs to possess.


----------



## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> No, it's a breezily inclusive one. I don't pretend to speak for everyone, but if I'm alone in my distaste for Bicycle's uniquely tedious output, I'll eat my mudguards.



Oh ok, thank you, only I got the impression from your post that it may include me, could you maybe edit it so it says something like "we're (excluding Mugshot) a little bored with it", thanks again


----------



## 400bhp (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Oh ok, thank you, only I got the impression from your post that it may include me, could you maybe edit it so it says something like "we're (excluding Mugshot and 400bhp) a little bored with it", thanks again


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Sir/Madam,
> 
> OK. Point taken.
> 
> ...



If you watch that video and worry about the example _Magnatom _is setting the children, then there's possibly something wrong with you. Anyway, this setting examples thing reminds me of this, in which (in case you are wondering) you are the New Kidz On The Block fan:

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRkA6zugNMQ[/media]


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> My theory was a variant on Dellzeqq's - that Bicycle claims all the virtual space he can as a proxy for all the tarmac he cravenly surrenders yet secretly longs to possess.




Sir/Madam

I do possess some tarmac!

In my youth I was a huge collector of parking tickets & frequently had my car towed... A well-meaning friend was passing some roadworks and took from a pile of dug-up road surface a 2-foot length of Double Yellow Line on tarmac. I still have it in the garden, next to my piece of Berlin Wall.

New definitions: Not wanting to inconvenience other road users for the sake of it = cravenly surrendering tarmac.

Also, I'm sure lots of people find my prose style boring. I post on this forum to amuse myself. Why should I worry what other people think of my writing?

If your opinion of my writing were a car, it would be a 1980 Renault 20 TS. Which may be a good thing, depending on your opinion of the Renault 20.


----------



## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> I prefer fart jokes.



Why did the skeleton burp?
Because he didn't have the guts to.....

Actually I apologise this is neither the time or the place, sorry


----------



## lukesdad (18 Nov 2011)

The question on everybody s lips is.... Will this thread run till the ban is lifted ? hmm.


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

Bill Hicks!

Oddly enough, my children do watch Bill Hicks clips on YouTube. 

He was an insanely funny man. 

They also watch films by Danis Tanovic, Ademir Kenovic, Wolfgang Petersen and Srdjan Dragojevic... all of them ceaselessly bleak and terribly bloody.

I just don't like the idea of them watching someone being offensive to other road users.

Not that I have any say in what they watch...


----------



## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> The question on everybody s lips is.... Will this thread run till the ban is lifted ? hmm.



Commuting is a centipede. It has lots of legs and they run and run and run and run ..................................................


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> The question on everybody s lips is.... Will this thread run till the ban is lifted ? hmm.




Who was banned?

Frankly, I thought I'd be banned for tedium, but I may not have been the worst offender...

Unlikely, but possible.


----------



## 400bhp (18 Nov 2011)

And how long is the ban-has it already been lifted?

Oooh, the suspense.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Bill Hicks!
> 
> Oddly enough, my children do watch Bill Hicks clips on YouTube.
> 
> ...



You're right - she was utterly vile, wasn't she? But at least the video exposed her as a jealous, angry f**kwit behind the wheel. Which is all quality stuff, if it's the didactic element that interests you...


----------



## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Who was banned?



I believe col was, check out "support and feedback" for confirmation. Don't know who else, I get the impression that I may have missed a load of posts where it all kicked off, one of the many problems with having to work!


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> You're right - she was utterly vile, wasn't she? But at least the video exposed her as a jealous, angry f**kwit behind the wheel. Which is all quality stuff, if it's the didactic element that interests you...



Sir/Madam,

She was quite vile. I've said as much in my posts. The video did expose that. You are right to say so.

She was also a very poor driver and showed no courtesy. Ghastly business!

I thought the cyclist who filmed it was offensive too.

Neither exhibited bevaviour that adds in a positive way to the sum of human knowledge.


----------



## benb (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Sir/Madam,
> 
> She was quite vile. I've said as much in my posts. The video did expose that. You are right to say so.
> 
> ...



Unlike this thread, of course.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Sir/Madam,
> 
> She was quite vile. I've said as much in my posts. The video did expose that. You are right to say so.
> 
> ...



Cobblers. Such utter cobblers, in fact, that it could tempt one to the sort of utterance that sensitive sorts and diligent Moderators characterise as "playing the man, not the ball". Lee spotted immediately what you were up to in your first despicably disingenuous post on this thread, and I'm afraid everything you've written is more of the same. Oblige me by not pretending partly to agree with me, would you? A preference for Vs over Discs aside, we agree about precisely nothing.


----------



## upsidedown (18 Nov 2011)

Can a mod please put this thread out of it's misery ?


----------



## Bman (18 Nov 2011)

I'm actually quite enjoying reading this thread. If you dont like it dont read it.


----------



## ferret fur (18 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> exactly (this is becoming a habit)



I  dell


----------



## upsidedown (18 Nov 2011)

Bongman said:


> I'm actually quite enjoying reading this thread. If you dont like it dont read it.



That's me told then.


----------



## gambatte (18 Nov 2011)

Bongman said:


> I'm actually quite enjoying reading this thread. If you dont like it dont read it.



I agree, it's kind of like watching Jeremy Kyle....


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Cobblers. Such utter cobblers, in fact, that it could tempt one to the sort of utterance that sensitive sorts and diligent Moderators characterise as "playing the man, not the ball". Lee spotted immediately what you were up to in your first despicably disingenuous post on this thread, and I'm afraid everything you've written is more of the same. Oblige me by not pretending partly to agree with me, would you? A preference for Vs over Discs aside, we agree about precisely nothing.




Sir/Madam,

I'm beginning to sense that I may be making you cross with my endless babbling, so I shal, proceed with caution.

On 'playing the man', I wonder where you'd put the endless lampooning someone's prose style. As it is, no-one mocks my style more than I do myself. If they were handing out medals for the ridiculing of my prose, I'd be in pole.

As to my 'despicably disingenuous post', I take it that was a post you disagreed with. I find none of my posts dispicably disingenuous, although it sounds quite a fun quality. If I do have that quality, I might see if I can bottle it. It makes me feel like Dick Dastardly.

On the matter of 'pretending partly to agree' with you, there was no artifice. We both think the woman in the clip was behaving in a vile way. That is agreement. I think she and the cyclist made matching bookends up to a point. You think otherwise. That is partial agreement.

On brakes, I had no idea you were an advocate of the V-Brake. Yes, I do like them on roadified MTBs. For brain-out roadbikes I prefer callipers and for the dirt I am a reluctant convert to hydraulic discs. Mechanically, my fave is the V-Brake, but so few bikes are right for them.

Surely you and I must agree on some other issues.... I'll offer you some of my opinions:

1. Sage and Rosemary are hugely under-used herbs in this age when people seem to put Basil in everything. 

2. Apples can be left on trees well into November and still taste delicious, cooked or raw.

3. I believe a shirt should always be ironed as follows: Sleeves, collar, shoulders and then body from buttons to buttonholes.

4. Unless you are Italian or unbelievably stylish, brown shoes cannot be be worn with a navy blue suit.

5.Foot-operated parking brakes (as in some Citroens and M-Bs) should not be offered in conjunction with manual transmission. It makes a mockery of their raison d'etre. 

Aware as ever that the Internet is nearly full and that you have better things to do than read my pointless prose, I'll leave it there.

But do tell; do you agree with any of the deeply held beliefs outlined above?


'


----------



## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle, a little of topic, but that last post of yours struck a chord with me, are you Robin Cooper? You can PM me if you don't want to admit it to the general public.


----------



## Hip Priest (18 Nov 2011)

gambatte said:


> I agree, it's kind of like watching Jeremy Kyle....



Except nobody's saying "At the end of the day you turned round and said...." again and again and again.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Sir/Madam,
> 
> I'm beginning to sense that I may be making you cross with my endless babbling, so I shal, proceed with caution.
> 
> ...



Point of order. The salient difference between prose and poetry is that in the former the typesetter (or digital equivalent) decides where the line ends and in the latter the decison rests (for good or ill) with the author. What you write is extremely bad free verse. And the difference between my criticism of your writing and your self-mockery is that I actually mean it. You could, if you chose, write differently. The reason you don't is that you've clearly figured out that some people are buying it. Which is annoying, because it makes me look mean.

I don't agree about sage, actually - I love it, but like tarragon it shouldn't be bandied about carelessly. But I digress - if you wish people to enjoy sharing good-natured small talk with you, you'd be better advised not to insult their intelligence in the same or adjacent posts. There's no way round the fact that your contribution to this thread is a disgrace - and it's one that is compounded, not mitigated, by the manner in which you choose to fill up the internet. Which is a suitably prolix way of saying that we (except for Mugshot) have got your number.


----------



## lukesdad (18 Nov 2011)

Meanwhile ( back at the batcave) having sewn the seeds of discontent. The OP once again dissapears into the Glaswegian murk, laughing his cottons off ! Knowing full well the trusted lieutenants will fight his corner untill their last breath, only to be mown down in the manner of a bloody Crimean battle


----------



## Hip Priest (18 Nov 2011)

Anyone who doesn't think Magnatom should be doing what he's doing can find some like minded folk at the end of his STV news appearence.

"He shouldnae be deeing it"


----------



## Buddfox (18 Nov 2011)

I'm just glad he changed 'proceeding' to 'preceding' - I got completely thrown the first time I watched it!

I think it's a good clip. I think she's unnecessarily rude but shows behaviour not atypical for a stressed out driver who's been stuck in traffic. I don't think Magnatom needed to talk to her - the irony of the video would have been just the same. He could have just let it go and posted a funny clip all the same.

I do wonder why cyclists have such a bee in their bonnet about this road tax thing. It's so obvious what the drivers mean, it always seems to come across as schoolyard childish argument when cyclists respond "I don't pay road tax, but neither do you." Let's just call it splitting hairs!

The tanker video remains by far and away the scariest cycle clip I've seen. It still freaks me out when I watch it.

Good debate on this thread though - don't shut it down, I'm enjoying it.


----------



## gambatte (18 Nov 2011)

I'm waiting for the results of the lie detector and DNA test!


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Buddfox said:


> I'm just glad he changed 'proceeding' to 'preceding' - I got completely thrown the first time I watched it!
> 
> I think it's a good clip. I think she's unnecessarily rude but shows behaviour not atypical for a stressed out driver who's been stuck in traffic. *I don't think Magnatom needed to talk to her - the irony of the video would have been just the same.* He could have just let it go and posted a funny clip all the same.
> 
> ...



You wouldn't have had the "you've been holding everyone up" line, though. There's a very simple reason why you should talk to motorists who behave badly towards you, and that is that they are counting on you not doing so.


----------



## Hip Priest (18 Nov 2011)

The tax thing isn't splitting hairs. Many motorists believe that roads are solely paid for from VED, and believe that gives them rights other road users don't have.


----------



## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Which is a suitably prolix way of saying that we (except for Mugshot) have got your number.



LOL 
I will raise my own point of order though, I asked to be excluded from the "bored" we, not the "number" we. However I do understand that it is entirely impractical to expect you to check which group I'd like to belong in each time


----------



## lukesdad (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> You wouldn't have had the "you've been holding everyone up" line, though. There's a very simple reason why you should talk to motorists who behave badly towards you, and that is that they are counting on you not doing so.




Hmm, there are a minority though that will be counting on you to confront them in order to esculate the situation ?


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> LOL
> I will raise my own point of order though, I asked to be excluded from the "bored" we, not the "number" we. However I do understand that *it is entirely impractical to expect you to check which group I'd like to belong in each time*



It is a bit, but I'm happy to be put straight after the event.


----------



## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Hmm, there are a minority though that will be counting on you to confront them in order to esculate the situation ?



Sure, but seeing as you can't do much to sort them out, you might as well use the strategy that works on people who are a little more susceptible to change.


----------



## lukesdad (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Sure, but seeing as you can't do much to sort them out, you might as well use the strategy that works on people who are a little more susceptible to change.




Ah! applying the same reasoning here then, how would you say the strategy is going so far ?


----------



## Bicycle (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Point of order. The salient difference between prose and poetry is that in the former the typesetter (or digital equivalent) decides where the line ends and in the latter the decison rests (for good or ill) with the author. What you write is extremely bad free verse. And the difference between my criticism of your writing and your self-mockery is that I actually mean it. You could, if you chose, write differently. The reason you don't is that you've clearly figured out that some people are buying it. Which is annoying, because it makes me look mean.
> 
> I don't agree about sage, actually - I love it, but like tarragon it shouldn't be bandied about carelessly. But I digress - if you wish people to enjoy sharing good-natured small talk with you, you'd be better advised not to insult their intelligence in the same or adjacent posts. There's no way round the fact that your contribution to this thread is a disgrace - and it's one that is compounded, not mitigated, by the manner in which you choose to fill up the internet. Which is a suitably prolix way of saying that we (except for Mugshot) have got your number.



Sir/Madam,

Blimey!

This really gets to you, doesn't it? Truly, it is not poetry; it is not verse; it is not free verse. It is prose.

Certainly it is extremely bad. We agree on that at least.

Of course I could write differently. We all could.

I don't write as I do because I've figured out that some people are buying it. I'm not even sure what is is I'm supposed to have figured out that they're buying. 

Don't be annoyed; I'm sure if you've figured out whatever it is that some people are buying but I'm not aware of selling, then the majority will be with you in not seeing you as mean. I certainly don't think you're mean. I think you're lovely.

If you're right (and you sound as if you usually are) then everyone will agree with you that my contribution to this thread has been a disgrace. That is not something to be proud of. 

I must go to collect my youngest from Hockey now, but I will try very, very hard in future not to be disgracefully disigenuous, not to write accidentally in very bad free verse when I thought I was writing dull prose, not to have opinions that differ from yours, not to cravenly give up tarmac to motorists and then covet its return, not to pretend partially to agree with people, not to seethe with...

Cripes! Thanks for all the nudges and suggestions, but I must be honest with you: For the life of me I cannot remember half the advice you've been kind enough to offer me on this thread.

Oh Bother! I've just used up another whole slice of Internet.

I still think Magnatom was being needlessly offensive to the woman in the Freelander.


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## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Ah! applying the same reasoning here then, how would you say the strategy is going so far ?



Quite well, thanks.


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## rich p (18 Nov 2011)

335 posts....
....and counting!

All because a bloke who's left the forum comes on to tell us why he's left and come back and left again and why he doesn't post videos on here any more but then posts one in the OP. Almost Joycian that sentence  

Confused, you will be.

Carry on you lot.


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## ianrauk (18 Nov 2011)

rich p said:


> 335 posts....
> ....and counting!
> 
> All because a bloke who's left the forum comes on to tell us why he's left and come back and left again and why he doesn't post videos on here any more but then posts one in the OP. Almost Joycian that sentence
> ...



All in all, a bit smash and grab.....


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## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

rich p said:


> 335 posts....
> ....and counting!
> 
> All because a bloke who's left the forum comes on to tell us why he's left and come back and left again and why he doesn't post videos on here any more but then posts one in the OP. Almost Joycian that sentence
> ...



346 posts now... and all because people keep dropping in to say they can't believe how long the thread is going on...


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## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> I'm not an especially close follower of his oeuvre, so I don't know whether there's any truth in this, but it certainly isn't the case in the video that opens this thread, which is rather amusing and shows a fairly good-natured response to an idiotically angry and abusive driver. And yet your entire contribution to this thread is to misrepresent the cyclist in the video. the children thing is absurd. Forgive me if we're a little bored with it, and if this weariness is exacerbated by your unwillingness to prune your ungainly poetry into something a bit more snappy.


you're bored!!! I'm almost comatose, but have taken the trouble to hit control 'I'. Easy on the quote thingy, Ms TeeCee!


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## User169 (18 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> Anyone who doesn't think Magnatom should be doing what he's doing can find some like minded folk at the end of his STV news appearence.
> 
> "He shouldnae be deeing it"



I reckon there are legitimate reasons to be sceptical. FM posted this a while ago....

_"On the one hand, I am all for cyclists protecting themselves, but *I have also observed that surveillance tends to increase, not act as a remedy for, declining civility*. And, whilst I do not any way condone death threats (whether believable or not) or violence of any kind, I can understand why increasing numbers of people have had enough of being filmed everywhere they go. Magnatom may have, and certainly may think he has, no bad motivations, but what does that mean to the people being filmed (and then being displayed online)? It is also the case that you are an easy target for frustration in the way that state CCTV or other fixed cameras are generally not (and they are increasingly protected). I am not sure, in the end whether helmet cams really protect you or incite a reaction. Certainly the posting online is far more provocative than necessary for self-protection. It still isn't 'normal' and I am not sure that I want to live in a society where it is." _(my emphasis)


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

Delftse Post said:


> I reckon there are legitimate reasons to be sceptical. FM posted this a while ago....
> 
> _"On the one hand, I am all for cyclists protecting themselves, but *I have also observed that surveillance tends to increase, not act as a remedy for, declining civility*. And, whilst I do not any way condone death threats (whether believable or not) or violence of any kind, I can understand why increasing numbers of people have had enough of being filmed everywhere they go. Magnatom may have, and certainly may think he has, no bad motivations, but what does that mean to the people being filmed (and then being displayed online)? It is also the case that you are an easy target for frustration in the way that state CCTV or other fixed cameras are generally not (and they are increasingly protected). I am not sure, in the end whether helmet cams really protect you or incite a reaction. Certainly the posting online is far more provocative than necessary for self-protection. It still isn't 'normal' and I am not sure that I want to live in a society where it is." _(my emphasis)




Pretty much spot on isn't it and posting it online is a long way from being normal. That said, which of us is truly normal.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Delftse Post said:


> FM posted this a while ago....



Who or what is FM?


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## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

well, DP, in response to that splurge of a quotation, I would say that the discussion of the merits of surveillance is meaningless unless one considers who is surveying who. Would Mr. Ian Tomlinson's passing have been marked if it were not for it being filmed? And, while we're about it, try putting that point across in Egypt, In other words, it's deracinated class and gender blind academic bollox.

Put it this way - if tall people were in the habit of being unpleasant to short people, then it would be quite in order for the short people to film the tall people. I'm sure you'll agree with that one!

As for the normal thing - people react to the idea that such and such behaviour is not thought to be generally acceptable. Now that Maggers' vids are going on the telly (thanks, in part, to a primetime ITV show coming your way soon, courtesy of the Cosmodemonic Telly Company) he will play a part in re-forming civility. In the 70s people thought that drink driving was acceptable - now they don't because the mass media made it unacceptable. Thusly with crap driving of the type filmed by the redoubtable Maggers.


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## Hip Priest (18 Nov 2011)

That's a really thought provoking post. Who is FM?


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## ferret fur (18 Nov 2011)

OTOH I recently found myself on the end of a completely unjustified tirade from a motorist (no camera so no proof either way) which was abruptly halted mid-sentence after he appeared to glance at my helmet. He then sped off & I was left pondering on the resemblance of my helmet light to a camera.


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## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> you're bored!!! I'm almost comatose, but have taken the trouble to hit control 'I'. Easy on the quote thingy, Ms TeeCee!



Sorry DZ! Bingo's off, then, is it?


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## StuartG (18 Nov 2011)

FakeKam: more protection than a bike helmet or TC in leathers.
Coming soon to a website near you ...


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## theclaud (18 Nov 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> That's a really thought provoking post. Who is FM?



Flying_Monkey of this parish. Knows a thing or two about surveillance. And quite a lot of other stuff...


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## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

ferret fur said:


> OTOH I recently found myself on the end of a completely unjustified tirade from a motorist (no camera so no proof either way) which was abruptly halted mid-sentence after he appeared to glance at my helmet. He then sped off & I was left pondering on the resemblance of my helmet light to a camera.


it happens a lot. I know one of BentMikey's victims. He's still smarting about it months after the event, but that's because he's worried. He's really quite nervous around cyclists now.


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> As for the normal thing - people react to the idea that such and such behaviour is not thought to be generally acceptable. Now that Maggers' vids are going on the telly (thanks, in part, to a primetime ITV show coming your way soon, courtesy of the Cosmodemonic Telly Company) he will play a part in re-forming civility. In the 70s people thought that drink driving was acceptable - now they don't because the mass media made it unacceptable. Thusly with crap driving of the type filmed by the redoubtable Maggers.




You've struck at the heart of it here. I'm ambivalent about helmetcam footage being posted but the jury is out as to whether it does any good. judging by the arguments on here and the difference of opinion, right now, I'd say no, it doesn't. 

Do I want my values dictated at me by media opinion driven by a small, vocal, slightly odd, broadly unrepresentative group, again, no, I don't. Will I accept it if it delivers a greater cycling nirvana; tricky. I happen to think it won't, it strikes me it sounds more populist journalism, than investigative journalism and I do believe there was some strong evidence on the effect of drink driving and it wasn't just the swaying of popular opinion.


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## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Sorry DZ! Bingo's off, then, is it?


Bingo's most definitely on. Our thoughts turn to Tahrir Square!


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## dellzeqq (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> You've struck at the heart of it here. I'm ambivalent about helmetcam footage being posted but the jury is out as to whether it does any good. judging by the arguments on here and the difference of opinion, right now, I'd say no, it doesn't.
> 
> Do I want my values dictated at me by media opinion driven by a small, vocal, slightly odd, broadly unrepresentative group, again, no, I don't. Will I accept it if it delivers a greater cycling nirvana; tricky. I happen to think it won't, it strikes me it sounds more populist journalism, than investigative journalism and I do believe there was some strong evidence on the effect of drink driving and it wasn't just the swaying of popular opinion.


I use the Tom Forrest argument on this one. Old Tom was a gamekeeper in Ambridge who thought of himself as a nice person. He wasn't. He was a shoot from top to bottom. Now there are a lot of people like Tom, people who read the Mail and go tut-tut, people who think of their car as the last word in personal space but they care about public esteem. You'll always get a minority of drivers who are just nasty, and know they're nasty, but if you undercut the self-esteem of those who behave badly, but don't think they behave badly then you'll achieve something. 

That's how it was with drink driving. The threat of prosecution, combined with the worry that people might think less of you if you drove under the influence made a big difference. I think helmet cams might really help raise driving standards. The helmet cam-istes don't have to be representative, and you may not like them (I'm proud to know BM as a friend) but they are doing a job for us all.


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> I use the Tom Forrest argument on this one. Old Tom was a gamekeeper in Ambridge who thought of himself as a nice person. He wasn't. He was a shoot from top to bottom. Now there are a lot of people like Tom, people who read the Mail and go tut-tut, people who think of their car as the last word in personal space but they care about public esteem. You'll always get a minority of drivers who are just nasty, and know they're nasty, but if you undercut the self-esteem of those who behave badly, but don't think they behave badly then you'll achieve something.
> 
> That's how it was with drink driving. The threat of prosecution, combined with the worry that people might think less of you if you drove under the influence made a big difference. I think helmet cams might really help raise driving standards. The helmet cam-istes don't have to be representative, and you may not like them (I'm proud to know BM as a friend) but they are doing a job for us all.




I take your point, I do. Ultimately you don't change what people think but you do make it unacceptable for them to do what they think.

I also must clarify, that I don't dislike camsters, a few are objectionable, belligerent, single minded, damned eccentric and sometimes infuriating but I can put that to one side and see the person behind. Maggers, for instance is very hard to dislike.

I question only if this is misguided. Certainly it's turned up the heat for most cyclists and I don't think we've seen the half of it yet. Where it ends up, only Russell Grant can foretell.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> I question only if this is misguided. Certainly it's turned up the heat for most cyclists and I don't think we've seen the half of it yet.



In what way has it turned up the heat Crackle?


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## gambatte (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> Where it ends up, only Russell Grant can foretell.



I now have the mental image of maggers vid. The 'lady' in the car gets out and they both do a rather camp samba down the road......


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> In what way has it turned up the heat Crackle?



Simply put, exposure. Over the past 2 years or so, we've seen a number of cyclists with cams on TV. Arch and Maggers are but two, both from this forum. Likewise cam footage has featured on TV. The result is a rise in consciousness of commuter cycling and the natural forming of opinion that that creates. However, the use of cams, seems to make that opinion far more divisive.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> Simply put, exposure. Over the past 2 years or so, we've seen a number of cyclists with cams on TV. Arch and Maggers are but two, both from this forum. Likewise cam footage has featured on TV. The result is a rise in consciousness of commuter cycling and the natural forming of opinion that that creates. However, the use of cams, seems to make that opinion far more divisive.



Have you experienced a change in attitude from either cyclists or motorists as a result of this?


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

1611686 said:


> That sounds like paranoid nonsense to me.



Is that your best contribution or do you have something constructive to say. Mind you I'm surprised: Normally you're ambivalent enough to be able to argue your contribution either way.


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Have you experienced a change in attitude from either cyclists or motorists as a result of this?



On the road no, off the road more people seem to have views on cycling.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> On the road no, off the road more people seem to have views on cycling.



Then I'm struggling to see how it's turned up the heat I'm sorry, turned up the heat for whom and how? Also where do you think it's leading to, you say you think we've only seen the half of it, what does this mean?


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Then I'm struggling to see how it's turned up the heat I'm sorry, turned up the heat for whom and how? Also where do you think it's leading to, you say you think we've only seen the half of it, what does this mean?



Mugshot, I'm not trying to be obtuse deliberately, it's a turn of phrase which I didn't think was particularly unclear. It refers simply to cyclists asserting their right to be seen as equals on the road, nothing more, nothing less.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> Mugshot, I'm not trying to be obtuse deliberately, it's a turn of phrase which I didn't think was particularly unclear. It refers simply to cyclists asserting their right to be seen as equals on the road, nothing more, nothing less.



I'm certainly not trying to deliberately misunderstand you, nor try to draw you into an argument for that matter. Maybe I'm being particularly stupid, but I honestly don't understand what you're saying about the heat being turned up and it leading to somewhere. My best guess from your post above is that the cyclists are turning up the heat on motorists by filming them.


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## Norm (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> Have you experienced a change in attitude from either cyclists or motorists as a result of this?


 I have certainly had very negative comments about cyclists filming inconsequential incidents and YouTubing them with accompanying emotional hyperbole. This was around the same time that the cyclecammers hit the news earlier this year, as well as seeing many comments on social media sites.

So yes, I have seen a change in attitudes.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> I have certainly had very negative comments about cyclists filming inconsequential incidents and YouTubing them with accompanying emotional hyperbole.



Is this from co-workers and family, how have you responded to the negativity?


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## Norm (18 Nov 2011)

1611696 said:


> Towards helmet cam cyclists who put trivial incidents up, helmet cam cyclists in general, the idea of helmet cam cyclists, or all cyclists?


 I think I covered that with " _filming inconsequential incidents and YouTubing them with accompanying emotional hyperbole_"



Mugshot said:


> Is this from co-workers and family, how have you responded to the negativity?


 The direct comments were from colleagues and the response was along the lines of "Don't drive like a ****wit and you've got little to worry about"


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> The direct comments were from colleagues and the response was along the lines of "Don't drive like a ****wit and you've got little to worry about"



Well that's about as direct an answer as I could wish for, thank you


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## Crackle (18 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> I'm certainly not trying to deliberately misunderstand you, nor try to draw you into an argument for that matter. Maybe I'm being particularly stupid, but I honestly don't understand what you're saying about the heat being turned up and it leading to somewhere. My best guess from your post above is that the cyclists are turning up the heat on motorists by filming them.




Sorry, I allowed myself to be further drawn into this thread than I intended. But having done so I suppose the only real way to extricate myself is to try and offer a fuller explanation.

I think as cyclists we've some way to go before we are treated with equality on the roads. You see this not just in motorists attitudes but differing attitudes of police, councils and various official bodies. At the moment, cycling seems to have a momentum which is greater than I've seen in the 30 years I've been cycling, enough, in fact, to make a difference, that is the 'where this ends up bit' I'm referring to. Will things actually have enough momentum to change attitudes and get us towards that equality.

To do that we really have to change driver attitudes and this is where helmetcams play their part. The problem I see with them is not people having them but the posting of the clips into the public domain. As FM says, this, I feel, increases frustration with cyclists and breeds resentment, this is the heat I refer to and which I think still has some way to go as a rise in awareness of helmetcams increases or as more people adopt helmetcams. Ergo, the likelihood increases that a frustrated motorist passes that frustration on to another cyclist. Of course that could be poppycock or paranoia as Adrian called it, I could just simply be wrong or I could be right but we still get a positive outcome from it, I simply have my doubts and that's before we even get into the nitty gritty of whether posted clips actually show us bad driving or bad cycling.

Now I hope that answers your question, as for some reason it took an inordinate amount of time to clarify my thoughts tonight: Must be more careful with loose phrases in future.


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## Mugshot (18 Nov 2011)

Crackle said:


> Now I hope that answers your question, as for some reason it took an inordinate amount of time to clarify my thoughts tonight: Must be more careful with loose phrases in future.



It does indeed, thank you


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## dellzeqq (19 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> I have certainly had very negative comments about cyclists filming inconsequential incidents and YouTubing them with accompanying emotional hyperbole. This was around the same time that the cyclecammers hit the news earlier this year, as well as seeing many comments on social media sites.
> 
> So yes, I have seen a change in attitudes.


the question is this - does it change their driving? Speed cameras excite all kinds of antipathy, up to and including vandalism. The Mail tells us that they are part of a 'war on motorists'. But.........speeds on camera'd roads decline. And speeding is less acceptable. I accept that people still speed and that there's a great deal of hypocrisy on this subject, but I believe that, generally, people are beginning to behave a little better because the argument has been 'taken to them' by the speed camera

There's an interesting variant on this. Villagers measuring speeds through their high streets. Nobody gets upset about it, other than the police who fear a confrontation - and it does reduce speeds for a while. Now the DfT is, apparently, going to devolve speed limits to highways authorities to allow more flexibility. My suspicion is that this will reduce more speed limits than it will increase. We'll have a popularly sanctioned improvement in driving.

I don't have a camera, but I do find that it is possible to get drivers to modify their behaviour, and for the better.


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## Norm (19 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> the question is this - does it change their driving?


 The question was actually about whether it changed their attitudes. 

I agree that speeding is becoming more unacceptable but I suggest that speeding and speed cameras are not particularly relevant points when considering helmet cams. 

There is a perception that there are fewer traffic police, with the "jam / honey sandwiches" having been replaced by speed cameras and Traffic Wombles. There have also been comments that fewer traffic police has led to a drop in driving standards.

The only things that speed cameras catch is speeding and they are completely useless for spotting, amongst other things, SMIDSYs, close passes and tailgating. 

Cyclecams, however, are pretty good at capturing, amongst other things, SMIDSYs, close passes and tailgating, although they are un-calibrated so completely useless at capturing speeding.

I agree, then, that these cameras change their driving as well as their attitudes, although I don't agree with the idea of a High Court of YouTube and wish that there were some easier way of pursuing due process through the legal system.


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## Mugshot (19 Nov 2011)

With the increase in helmet cameras I assume, as with this thread and plenty of others on this forum, there has been an increase in the amount of debate amongst cyclists with regards to roadcraft, maybe leading to a more assertive cycling community.
If you are seeing a change in attitude and driving, could this be due to superior roadcraft from the cyclists rather than a concern that they may be filmed from the motorist?


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## lukesdad (19 Nov 2011)

Mugshot said:


> With the increase in helmet cameras I assume, as with this thread and plenty of others on this forum, there has been an increase in the amount of debate amongst cyclists with regards to roadcraft, maybe leading to a more assertive cycling community.
> If you are seeing a change in attitude and driving, could this be due to superior roadcraft from the cyclists rather than a concern that they may be filmed from the motorist?




Or it could be of course the increase of cyclists motorists are encountering.


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## Brahan (19 Nov 2011)

BentMikey said:


> doog + brahan = oxygen thieves.




Well done on the fabulous comment there.


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## Mugshot (19 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Or it could be of course the increase of cyclists motorists are encountering.



Indeed, but new cyclists need to learn their roadcraft from somewhere or else they will be gutter huggers. I was that gutter hugger until watching videos and reading forums, it showed me the error of my ways. As a gutter hugger I was doing little to change any motorists attitude or driving, I think now, maybe, I am.


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## doog (19 Nov 2011)

Wasnt nice was it Brahan ? Dont expect anything approaching an apology either.
Back to the current subject of driver improvement due to headcams.

My view is that we will actually see a rise in hostility towards cyclists in the shape of poorer driving as a result (almost obstructive) . The public on the whole can accept that we live in a society dominated by CCTV etc, what they *hate *is the 'personal' infringement of what they consider to be their private life by another member of the public, rather than an organisation council or shops etc.

So pointing a camera in someone's face or car and telling them to look on youtube will only result in an increase in confrontation ( just like in this vid from OP where the driver leaps from his vehicle at the mention of this threat.)

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

I wonder how us cyclists would feel if motorists started routinely filming us and confronting us at junctions over what they perceive to be bad cycling?


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## gaz (19 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I wonder how us cyclists would feel if motorists started routinely filming us and confronting us at junctions over what they perceive to be bad cycling?



I wouldn't care. I think i'm a relatively good cyclist who makes clear signals and is courteous to other road users.


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## Norm (19 Nov 2011)

gaz said:


> I wouldn't care. I think i'm a relatively good cyclist who makes clear signals and is courteous to other road users.


 Oooo, I wonder how many of those filmed in their cars would think the same of their driving.


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I wonder how us cyclists would feel if motorists started routinely filming us and confronting us at junctions over what they perceive to be bad cycling?


No problem at all, provided they can quote the sources of their supposed wisdom and don't make up their own imaginary highway code rules like most of the motorists featured in video clips do. Even better if they can honestly say that they have sufficient experience of cycling themselves to back up their assertions. (In my case, I have about 400,000 miles of driving experience, including 50,000 miles on a motorcycle.)


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## Hip Priest (19 Nov 2011)

doog said:


> I wonder how us cyclists would feel if motorists started routinely filming us and confronting us at junctions over what they perceive to be bad cycling?



Funnily enough, I've been confronted at a junction by a fellow cyclist with a camera. He pointed out a minor error I'd made. I said 'I'm sorry mate, I didn't realise', but he persisted in lecturing me, so I told him to 'F-off' and he started squealing like TesterAnimal as I rode away. 

But on the whole, as a cyclist and motorist, I have no problem with being filmed. I drive courteously, and I'm able to admit my mistakes and apologise if necessary, which would make me look less like a div if I did end up online.


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## lukesdad (19 Nov 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> No problem at all, provided they can quote the sources of their supposed wisdom and don't make up their own imaginary highway code rules like most of the motorists featured in video clips do. Even better if they can honestly say that they have sufficient experience of cycling themselves to back up their assertions. (In my case, I have about 400,000 miles of driving experience, including 50,000 miles on a motorcycle.)




In that case I have almost 400,000 miles as a cyclist so you better start listening !


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> In that case I have almost 400,000 miles as a cyclist so you better start listening !



Oh, I do, Sensei.  In fact, I've learned a lot from everyone on here.



lukesdad said:


> In that case I have almost 400,000 miles as a cyclist so you*'d* better start listening !



FTF... oops, sorry.


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## Norm (19 Nov 2011)

lukesdad said:


> In that case I have almost 400,000 miles as a cyclist so you better start listening !


 It is strange how figures are thrown around like that as if bigger numbers do mean anything.

IME, people who have only recently got their qualifications have few miles but have the greatest knowledge of what they should be doing and the least aggression and attitude in their approach. However, that doesn't make a very high damp patch on a wall.


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## lukesdad (19 Nov 2011)

Wall ?  I can reach the loft tank


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## Norm (19 Nov 2011)

Oh... maybe that's why drinking water doesn't sort out dehydration.


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## dellzeqq (19 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> The question was actually about whether it changed their attitudes.
> 
> I agree that speeding is becoming more unacceptable but I suggest that speeding and speed cameras are not particularly relevant points when considering helmet cams.
> 
> ...


I think attitudes changed with regard to drink driving, are changing with regard to speeding, and crucially have changed out of sight in those parts of London where cyclists predominate. I'm suggesting that while individuals vary, the body politic of driving is moving with the times and can be moved further.

As for the traffic police/speed camera dichotomy - I'm not at all impressed by the press campaigns and people like Safespeed. In the end people don't like being caught, and are, in the main, prepared to modify their behaviour to reduce the chances of being caught. The irony is that while helmet cams rightly report on bad behaviour in London, the respect shown to cyclists has increased dramatically, with buses leading the way, but private cars following on close behind. I say irony, because, actually, all political movements tend to flourish when events are already going their way (see Russian revolution and rise in industrial wages prior etc., etc., etc.....). My cause and effect thing above was a bit simplistic - cause and effect are intermingled, with greater confidence within the body politic of cycling leading to greater expectations and assertiveness, which, in turn, results in better driver behaviour.

Put another way - nothing has ever been gained for cycling, or any other cause, _by just hoping for it_. People like Maggers and BM are engendering a hesitation within the body politic of driving, and that hesitation is compounded by the rise in the number of cyclists in my part of the world. Whether BRSU is ploughing a lonely furrow in Swindon is, perhaps, beside the point. Quite apart from nobody caring about Swindon, the town, 'blessed' with a zillion cycle paths is not enjoying the cycling revolution (I put it no less strongly than that) that is happening in London. Swindon's drivers have no real need to think (the council having switched off its Gatsos) and will continue to exhibit the untermensch behaviour that BRSU records. 

So helmet cameras are part of a shift of attitude that is binary. We gain in confidence and our expectations rise on the back of that confidence. Motorists lose the sense of impunity they've enjoyed hitherto. It's patchwork, it's partial, but that's the nature of things. Overall I remain both optimistic in general, and gain some of that optimism from Maggers' and BM's efforts.


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## theclaud (19 Nov 2011)

Well said, DZ. Perhaps counter-revolutionaries could be banished to Swindon...


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## theclaud (19 Nov 2011)

1611722 said:


> That would have to be the punishment of last resort.



Admittedly, most would probably choose to be shot and left in a ditch. But it doesn't hurt to give them a couple of options.


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## dellzeqq (19 Nov 2011)

1611722 said:


> That would have to be the punishment of last resort.


I did suggest Milton Keynes, (being barred from the town myself) but Fab Foodie thought that was too harsh.


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## theclaud (19 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> I did suggest Milton Keynes, (being barred from the town myself) but Fab Foodie thought that was too harsh.



I'm jealous. I want to be barred from Milton Keynes. What do I need to do?


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## dellzeqq (19 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> I'm jealous. I want to be barred from Milton Keynes. What do I need to do?


have an ex-wife there. (I should say that this is not a court injunction, but one enacted by the present and for all time Mrs. DZ)


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> It is strange how figures are thrown around like that as if bigger numbers do mean anything.
> IME, people who have only recently got their qualifications have few miles but have the greatest knowledge of what they should be doing and the least aggression and attitude in their approach. However, that doesn't make a very high damp patch on a wall.


Not sure why it has to be a p155ing competition. It's simply about answering the point when the driver assumes that any cyclist has never driven a car and says "what do you know about driving?". Most drivers have never ridden a bike since they were a child, so actually talk from a position of ignorance, whereas most adult cyclists are probably also experienced motorists.


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## theclaud (19 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> *have an ex-wife there.* (I should say that this is not a court injunction, but one enacted by the present and for all time Mrs. DZ)



This is going to be tricky, and a lot more work than I imagined. I thought I might just have to go and dismantle a bit of cycling infrastructure whilst swearing a lot. I'll need to consult the rulebook of the Lesbian Separatist Collective.


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## mr_hippo (19 Nov 2011)

I think this thread has outlived its usefullness. Now there were two ducks in front of a duck, two ducks ...


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## col (19 Nov 2011)

goo_mason said:


> Judo.
> 
> And he didn't mention it if you disagreed with him, Col. I've told you a million times - do not exaggerate!




Hello Goo, Iv had debates with him where he did exactly that, no exaggeration.


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## 400bhp (19 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> I think attitudes changed with regard to drink driving, are changing with regard to speeding, and crucially have changed out of sight in those parts of London where cyclists predominate. I'm suggesting that while individuals vary, the body politic of driving is moving with the times and can be moved further.
> 
> As for the traffic police/speed camera dichotomy - I'm not at all impressed by the press campaigns and people like Safespeed. In the end people don't like being caught, and are, in the main, prepared to modify their behaviour to reduce the chances of being caught. The irony is that while helmet cams rightly report on bad behaviour in London, the respect shown to cyclists has increased dramatically, with buses leading the way, but private cars following on close behind. I say irony, because, actually, all political movements tend to flourish when events are already going their way (see Russian revolution and rise in industrial wages prior etc., etc., etc.....). My cause and effect thing above was a bit simplistic - cause and effect are intermingled, with greater confidence within the body politic of cycling leading to greater expectations and assertiveness, which, in turn, results in better driver behaviour.
> 
> ...



Good post.  I haven't cycled in London, nor driven there for over 3 years, but it does seem that the popularity in London (safety in numbers) means that the roads are perhaps safer due to motorists being more aware, and perhaps, more importantly, expecting to see as many cyclists as cars.

Helmet cames are more effect than cause though (which is what I think you were intimating).

Isn't it nice when we all get on


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## 400bhp (19 Nov 2011)

mr_hippo said:


> I think this thread has outlived its usefullness. Now there were two ducks in front of a duck, two ducks ...



Arguably, no thread has a use.


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## 400bhp (19 Nov 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> the question is this - does it change their driving? Speed cameras excite all kinds of antipathy, up to and including vandalism. The Mail tells us that they are part of a 'war on motorists'. But.........speeds on camera'd roads decline. And speeding is less acceptable. I accept that people still speed and that there's a great deal of hypocrisy on this subject, but I believe that, generally, people are beginning to behave a little better because the argument has been 'taken to them' by the speed camera
> 
> There's an interesting variant on this. Villagers measuring speeds through their high streets.* Nobody gets upset about it*, other than the police who fear a confrontation - and it does reduce speeds for a while. Now the DfT is, apparently, going to devolve speed limits to highways authorities to allow more flexibility. My suspicion is that this will reduce more speed limits than it will increase. We'll have a popularly sanctioned improvement in driving.
> 
> I don't have a camera, but I do find that it is possible to get drivers to modify their behaviour, and for the better.



I have to take issue at this. There are a lot of motorists who don't like this, which can be evidenced on certain car forums I have frequented and chatting to others at motoring "get togethers" (track days/races). Most of the dislike comes from the ones holding the speed guns being self appointed police with nothing better to do. Crackles point on the perception cameras can give (a war on motorists argument) is a real one. How much the negatives outweigh the positives is one we can only speculate on (as evidenced in this thread).

On a personal level, I installed CCTV at the back of my house a few years back as I suffered for a while from youths/children throwing stones at my house. The vandalism stopped almost immediately the day I installed it. Indeed, on the first couple of nights it was installed, there were a few stones thrown. I reviewed the vid of the stone throwing and one youth could be clearly heard saying something along the lines of "there's a camera up there".


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## theclaud (19 Nov 2011)

1611740 said:


> We should perhaps clarify here, what is the position on through trains? Both Swindon and MK are on the way to other places.



It's useful for trains to go through Swindon, but I don't see the need for them to stop. Enemies of the revolution can simply be hurled into one of those nets that used to catch mailbags. Reduced journey time, and a win-win.


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## BSRU (19 Nov 2011)

theclaud said:


> Well said, DZ. Perhaps counter-revolutionaries could be banished to Swindon...



They should really be banished/sent to Coventry, following historical precedent .


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## Bicycle (19 Nov 2011)

Coventry or Swindon? 

That sounds like the very definition of cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Can't these prestoopnicky just join up with their droogs in Siberia or on Goli Otok?

There should be a limit to human cruelty.


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## theclaud (19 Nov 2011)

Bicycle said:


> Swindon?
> 
> That sounds like the very definition of cruel and unusual punishment to me.



You'll probably find you get used to it quite quickly. Annual day trips to Severn Beach will be permitted.


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## Magikarp (19 Nov 2011)

what camera are you using?


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## Norm (19 Nov 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> Not sure why it has to be a p155ing competition. It's simply about answering the point when the driver assumes that any cyclist has never driven a car and says "what do you know about driving?". Most drivers have never ridden a bike since they were a child, so actually talk from a position of ignorance, whereas most adult cyclists are probably also experienced motorists.


 It means nothing, though, and posting that you have xxx miles experience is giving every appearance of bragging about the height you can attain.

I don't care if a driver has never cycled in his life, I will be no less dead if he drives over me. Or, to refer back to your post...



MrHappyCyclist said:


> No problem at all, provided they can quote the sources of their supposed wisdom and don't make up their own imaginary highway code rules like most of the motorists featured in video clips do. Even better if they can honestly say that they have sufficient experience of cycling themselves to back up their assertions. (In my case, I have about 400,000 miles of driving experience, including 50,000 miles on a motorcycle.)


 What relevance has cycling experience for knowledge of the highway code? What cycling experience does someone need to recognise the presence of an ASZ? Or why a cyclist would use primary? We've had several on this very thread who say that they have cycled for years without moving away from the gutter if they hadn't considered the possibilities.

And, as I said previously, knowledge of the actual Highway Code is more likely in someone who has just passed his test rather than someone with 400,000 miles experience. They haven't had the benefit of the years to forget what was in there, to not keep up to date with the changes, to learn your own interpretations rather than the realities. Not that you have necessarily forgotten anything or not kept up to date, but that's how it appears when you write that you've driven 400,000 miles as if it means something.

IMO.


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## Buddfox (19 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> It means nothing, though, and posting that you have xxx miles experience is giving every appearance of bragging about the height you can attain.
> 
> I don't care if a driver has never cycled in his life, I will be no less dead if he drives over me. Or, to refer back to your post...
> 
> ...



+1


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## al78 (22 Nov 2011)

Norm said:


> It means nothing, though, and posting that you have xxx miles experience is giving every appearance of bragging about the height you can attain.
> 
> 
> And, as I said previously, knowledge of the actual Highway Code is more likely in someone who has just passed his test rather than someone with 400,000 miles experience. They haven't had the benefit of the years to forget what was in there, to not keep up to date with the changes, to learn your own interpretations rather than the realities. Not that you have necessarily forgotten anything or not kept up to date, but that's how it appears when you write that you've driven 400,000 miles as if it means something.
> ...


 
You really think experience means nothing? If that is the case why are accident rates higher amongst newly qualified drivers on average?


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## 400bhp (22 Nov 2011)

Semantics Al-I don't wish to second guess Norm but he I don't believe he meant the answer to be binary.


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