# Brompton clones



## Yellow Fang (29 Aug 2021)

I often wondered why other companies did not start copying the Brompton once the patents ran out. It looks like they have. There are at least three brands that look like direct copies: Mobot, Pike (Pikesei) and 3Sixty. Presumably they are all cheaper than Bromptons. I wonder what that means for Brompton long term. Maybe that is why they seem to be concentrating on electric bikes so much. Bromptons are manufactured and put together in London, which is a city with a high cost of living. How much of the cost of a Brompton is due to labour costs? Can they make them cheaper?


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## rogerzilla (29 Aug 2021)

They use copyright law to go after clones now, even though the shape is dictated by the fold, and the patent on the fold is long expired. China, of course, is a market that takes no notice of copyright.

The hinges (stem and main tube) are supposed to be quite hard to replicate well. There is a lot of room for improvement in the frame: a higher strength chromoly steel and TIG welding would save a lot of weight compared to hi-tensile steel and fillet brazing, although skilled TIG welding wouldn't be much cheaper.

The advantages of a Brompton over clones - for now - are resale value and parts availability. I remember when a Mezzo cost more than a Brompton new, but they are cheap s/h and there is no support now.


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## berlinonaut (29 Aug 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> How much of the cost of a Brompton is due to labour costs? Can they make them cheaper?


Watch this video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh4yStWFNvs

At about 42:30 there's the information you ask for: About 25% of the direct cost (production cost) of the bike with the assumption to be abele to bring it down to 15% in the same location. The talk was a couple of years ago but still interesting.


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## rogerzilla (29 Aug 2021)

Watching " Inside The Factory", the fillet brazing is hugely time-consuming, especially for the rear triangle. It's always been the go-to joining technique for odd angles where lugs aren't available, and small production volumes, but Brompton are having to employ a lot of brazers now. Long-term, TIG welding with an air-hardening steel would give a better product but good manual TIG welding is even more highly skilled than fillet brazing, so it wouldn't save any money. TIG welding can be automated but the capital cost is huge. You can have one machine churning out perfectly welded frames 24/7, though. Would prospective Brompton owners care if a robot joined their frame together? I doubt it, since the LWB bikes introduced some automation of the main hinge joint, and it had clear technical advantages.


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## Yellow Fang (29 Aug 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> Watch this video:
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh4yStWFNvs
> 
> At about 42:30 there's the information you ask for: About 25% of the direct cost (production cost) of the bike with the assumption to be abele to bring it down to 15% in the same location. The talk was a couple of years ago but still interesting.




I have to say, I have often wondered about those clamps. So when Will Butler-Adams says you don't want the bike to snap going down a hill, the clamps suddenly failing is what I think about. I have often wondered what the physics is that stops them coming apart. WBA says a lot of IP is in their manufacturing process and that they have a lot of expensive manufacturing kit, but Andrew Ritchie could not have had that kit when he started, so the basic design must have been sound. WBA's argument that their competitors make Brompton shaped objects, but you don't know how long they will last, well I just don't know about that. I had a Brompton for over fifteen years. At one point the rear triangle corroded through, although Brompton fixed it free of charge. Do modern Bromptons resist corrosion more? They are made of steel. It tends to be the components you need to replace, although they are not the cost of a new Brompton. Over the long term there is a general deterioration. If you work on the bike yourself, you are probably not as skilled or have all the tools a bike mechanic in a bike shop has. The paintwork gets tatty. Anyway, how do we know these far eastern copies of Bromptons have worse made frames than Bromptons? I don't think that's a given at all.

Still, it is interesting to know labour costs accounts for 25% of the price and could possibly be brought down to 15%. If labour costs in Taiwan are 4%, I'd be fairly happy to overlook an 11% difference in price.


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## rogerzilla (29 Aug 2021)

25% of the cost, not 25% of the price! The cost is, based on the hire scheme replacement charge, about 50% of the price and the rest is profit, shipping, VAT and the retailer's cut.


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## berlinonaut (30 Aug 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> 25% of the cost, not 25% of the price! The cost is, based on the hire scheme replacement charge, about 50% of the price and the rest is profit, shipping, VAT and the retailer's cut.


WBA referred to direct cost - the cost of time and material to produce one bike. Apart from the gross margin of Brompton, distribution and dealer you have to add the cost of distribution, marketing, and generic cost of the factory (like i.e. R&D, inventory, location, pension schemes, training, management, human ressources, tooling, holidays, illness, tax advisors, administration, contracting, legal requiremaments, etc.) that cannot be pointed down directly to a single bike. If I rememeber correctly WBA said (maybe even in the same talk) that the materials in one bike add up to around a bit over 300 GBP (I may remember wrong), not including labor and other direct and indirect cost.


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## berlinonaut (30 Aug 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> Still, it is interesting to know labour costs accounts for 25% of the price and could possibly be brought down to 15%. If labour costs in Taiwan are 4%, I'd be fairly happy to overlook an 11% difference in price.


As @rogerzilla said: This is a totally wrong understanding - a milkmaids calculation as we would say in Germany. And as this kind of misunderstanding is pretty common no wonder that barely any producer talks publicly about his cost... The point that WBA tried to make is that with going to i.e. Taiwan a short term effect on labor cost would happen but neither a dramatic one regarding the end price nor a sustainable one. Plus it would have a price, possibly in terms of quality, definitively in terms of overhead and complexity of the organisation. Brompton tried something like that in the early 90ies with Neobike and that resulted in somwhat cheaper but lower quality bikes and in the clones we see today on the market. So possibly not much to win but a lot to loose for Brompton. The sales price is a somwhat indirect derivation of the cost but also influenced by the competition and a lot of other things. Realistically you should find out what value a Brompton delivers to you (typically it is well worth the price quickly regarding that if you really use it) and if there are cheaper alternatives that are fit for purpose in the same way. The latter obviously depends from your needs but it a small fold, longterm quality and good spare parts situation are on your list you may not find too many valid alternatives.

BTW: The talk was five years ago and the factory has scaled up since then. So I'd assume they managed to bring down the direct labor cost already at least a bit (which you can see from the publicly available balance sheet). The move to the new factory a couple of years ago brought them a rise in efficiency.


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## rogerzilla (30 Aug 2021)

I do wonder if the longevity of the things (largely due to the price, they get looked after better than most bikes) means they'll reach a saturation point in the UK. I suppose the older ones will go overseas, like the way old British cars used to end up in Malta.


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## Yellow Fang (30 Aug 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> As @rogerzilla said: This is a totally wrong understanding - a milkmaids calculation as we would say in Germany. And as this kind of misunderstanding is pretty common no wonder that barely any producer talks publicly about his cost... The point that WBA tried to make is that with going to i.e. Taiwan a short term effect on labor cost would happen but neither a dramatic one regarding the end price nor a sustainable one. Plus it would have a price, possibly in terms of quality, definitively in terms of overhead and complexity of the organisation. Brompton tried something like that in the early 90ies with Neobike and that resulted in somwhat cheaper but lower quality bikes and in the clones we see today on the market. So possibly not much to win but a lot to loose for Brompton. The sales price is a somwhat indirect derivation of the cost but also influenced by the competition and a lot of other things. Realistically you should find out what value a Brompton delivers to you (typically it is well worth the price quickly regarding that if you really use it) and if there are cheaper alternatives that are fit for purpose in the same way. The latter obviously depends from your needs but it a small fold, longterm quality and good spare parts situation are on your list you may not find too many valid alternatives.
> 
> BTW: The talk was five years ago and the factory has scaled up since then. So I'd assume they managed to bring down the direct labor cost already at least a bit (which you can see from the publicly available balance sheet). The move to the new factory a couple of years ago brought them a rise in efficiency.



Excuse me for not realising I had to divide the labour cost percentage by the ratio of the retail price over the cost of manufacture, which WBA does not state. What I wanted to know is are the Brompton clones much cheaper, and if so, is that because labour is so much cheaper to hire out there, including take home pay, sick pay, pension, annual leave, death in service, taxes, performance bonuses, Christmas party, and all the other outgoings associated with employing staff. Is the difference in the labour manufacturing costs, as reflected in the retail price, large or small?


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## rogerzilla (30 Aug 2021)

They are also closer to where they can get the components manufactured (I think they use the Taiwanese SA hubs, although the BWR may be made exclusively for Brompton, in which case they are limited to a 3-speed, the SRF3 being the same as the BSR hub) and, given the size of the Chinese market, can probably buy components cheaper than Brompton can, with far lower shipping costs. There will also be bigger economies of scale when you are dealing with an internal market of over a billion people. This is even if they don't cheap out on the quality of materials, which is sadly pretty normal for mainland Chinese manufacturing.

I doubt you'll see any for sale through official channels over here, or have you? Brompton's lawyers would be all over them like a rash. You can get away with anything in the Chinese domestic market: https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/87772/chinese-copycat-cars-how-do-they-get-away-with-it


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## Yellow Fang (30 Aug 2021)

Don't know how you go about buying them, but the website is in English. You probably start by phoning the number.
http://www.3sixtybike.com/category/bikes/folding-bikes/


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## Yellow Fang (30 Aug 2021)

You can get Pikes/Paikesi Brompton clones in Singapore, which I thought was a country that was pretty hot on commercial law. I don't know how you would get one here. They look like they cost about half price.
https://www.lazada.sg/products/pike...list.1.2b5a40aeDgEG5M&search=1&freeshipping=1


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## Yellow Fang (30 Aug 2021)

And the Mobot Royale. Looks like you'd have to pay shipping costs plus duties and taxes, but it still looks like a big saving. I don't reckon Brompton are selling many bikes in the far east.

https://mobot.sg/shop/bicycle-bike/royale-foldable-bicycle/#1513763539798-d769020b-a0c0


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## FrankCrank (30 Aug 2021)

Here's another for your perusal:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/100...exp_id=726a3da5-0b73-435f-8951-f0e70c2af97f-7

Think these come re-badged under various names, all from the same factory I expect, over in that there China. 

Personally, I'm not in the market for a Brommie or a clone, but maybe a folder from Decathlon could be on my letter to Santa this year. They cost less than half the UK price, so quite a bargain really. Brommies go for eye watering prices here, so not surprised the clones are popping up. Would be interesting to see a shootout of the real McCoy verses the imposter.


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## rogerzilla (30 Aug 2021)

I like the FAQ "Is there any problem to buy it to Europe (or Spain)?

Maybe they think Franco is still running it as a dictatorship.


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## u_i (30 Aug 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> And the Mobot Royale. Looks like you'd have to pay shipping costs plus duties and taxes, but it still looks like a big saving.



I am dumbfounded by the reasoning here. So if I do not buy any bike at all, I save all the money?? If I go out and by some department store bike for $150, I save most money? Is it about buying a bike that looks like Brompton, but paying less than for a Brompton? Is this supposed to be a good deal??

As to buying on AliExpress in another post, depending on your purchasing pattern, it can be the most expensive portal around to buy on. The issue is of practically nonexistent protection for the buyer. By now I made about 100 purchases on AliExpress, so I am knowledgeable about the subject. There is a far higher percentage of incompetent and unscrupulous sellers than elsewhere and far greater percentage of marginal products. If you are unhappy with your purchase, you in practice lost all your money or most of it. The portal is good for buying low-value items, so you do not care if you lose your money, or for products of established quality from vendors who represent the manufacturers. With everything else, you need to be in a better financial situation than most, so you do not care, else it can be financially suicidal.


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## Yellow Fang (30 Aug 2021)

u_i said:


> I am dumbfounded by the reasoning here. So if I do not buy any bike at all, I save all the money?? If I go out and by some department store bike for $150, I save most money? Is it about buying a bike that looks like Brompton, but paying less than for a Brompton? Is this supposed to be a good deal??
> 
> As to buying on AliExpress in another post, depending on your purchasing pattern, it can be the most expensive portal around to buy on. The issue is of practically nonexistent protection for the buyer. By now I made about 100 purchases on AliExpress, so I am knowledgeable about the subject. There is a far higher percentage of incompetent and unscrupulous sellers than elsewhere and far greater percentage of marginal products. If you are unhappy with your purchase, you in practice lost all your money or most of it. The portal is good for buying low-value items, so you do not care if you lose your money, or for products of established quality from vendors who represent the manufacturers. With everything else, you need to be in a better financial situation than most, so you do not care, else it can be financially suicidal.


I don't think I'd buy anything on AliExpress myself.


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## bonzobanana (30 Aug 2021)

I believe the Brompton is made from different types of steel to give different material properties at different points of the frame and the brazing enables this quite well. This gives the frame its unique characteristics. I've seen a comparison of a clone model compared to Brompton and the clone felt weaker with more flexing. I could be wrong but I seem to remember the Brompton is a mixture of both high tensile steel and chromoly steel. 

As for aliexpress its generally been a hit for me, maybe 3% of orders have issues (but I do check reviews before ordering). One product I received half what I ordered but the price was fantastic even for half the quantity and aliexpress did nothing for me except say I could return it at my cost. They did not care about me not receiving the order as described. Other times Aliexpress customer service has been good. I've just ordered 2 items today because of the free £2 cashback at topcashback. One is a Sensa 10 speed rear derailleur and the other is a Micronew 10 speed rear derailleur. 

The Micronew works out at about £5.50 delivered (allowing for the £2 cashback and other cashback) and is coming from France.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002926585634.html

The Sensah works out at about £9 delivered (allowing for the £2 cashback plus other cashback).

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002783295107.html

I've had Micronew (same company as Microshift and Sunrace) trigger shifters before and they were fine. I've also had Microshift twist shifters and a entry level Microshift rear derailleur and they were fairly poor quality. We shall see how it goes.

Yes Shimano is better (mid-range upwards) but I like cheap builds and seeing how they perform.


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## simongt (1 Sep 2021)

It's interesting how bike prices are judged by any particular type of bike. Brommys are not a cheap folder option, but are very well made and completely 'individual'; can't mistake a Brommy for anything else. So what's the difference as such then with a carbon Bianchi road bike costing, in 2018, £11,000 when a 'just as good' a bike can be had for well under half that - ? 
Just saying - !


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## sheddy (1 Sep 2021)

As probably said, AR had frame failures on the first run. Fortunately they were all purchased by friends, so they just patiently returned them and waited.


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## rogerzilla (1 Sep 2021)

AR?


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## TheDoctor (1 Sep 2021)

Andrew Ritchie, the designer of the Brommie?
 We're not worthy!


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## FrankCrank (1 Sep 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Andrew Ritchie, the designer of the Brommie?
> We're not worthy!


And they said he wouldn't amount to anything when he left Wham.


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## TheDoctor (1 Sep 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> And they said he wouldn't amount to anything when he left Wham.


That's careless whispers, nothing more.


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## Yellow Fang (4 Sep 2021)

I am not convinced the Brompton's metal frame is all that special. It's heavy. It's made of stovepipe steel. I'm pretty sure it's not made of triple-butted, Reynolds 953 steel tubing, or whatever Reynolds' best tubing is. I don't really see a lot special in quality terms about the components. They are a funny size and some of the components were designed for Brompton. It is interesting that the Brompton cloners have sourced suitable components. I wonder if they sourced them from the same suppliers.


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## berlinonaut (4 Sep 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> I am not convinced the Brompton's metal frame is all that special. It's heavy. It's made of stovepipe steel. I'm pretty sure it's not made of triple-butted, Reynolds 953 steel tubing, or whatever Reynolds' best tubing is. I don't really see a lot special in quality terms about the components. They are a funny size and some of the components were designed for Brompton. It is interesting that the Brompton cloners have sourced suitable components. I wonder if they sourced them from the same suppliers.


The point is: The Brompton is not about using high level Reynolds tubing. It is not about the fanciness of the components. It is the usage that you get from the whole package that is the result of the parts that counts. You will not understand it if don't experience it. Yes, the Brompton is expensive but the value you get from it makes it pay from itself in literally no time and it is worth every penny. At least that's true for me - your mileage may vary. If you niggle about a certain part you miss the picture. And often enough you'll even miss the point when judging about certain parts. With a folders many rules for "normal" bikes are worth nothing. I.e. the Brompton is made of ordinary steel, no fancy Reynolds tubing. Not only is it sufficient for the purpose, possibly it is even the better choice as the thicker tubing is more robust and due to folding, geometry and usage physics hit a folder in a way more complex way than a diamond frame.
It seems that your best choice is to make your own experiences. If you think the cheaper clones are a better deal than an original Brompton you should buy one. Many have gone down that road before you. Judging from the reports on the internet some liked it while most sooner or later recognized that things that look similar on first look are not necessarily of similar quality, let alone regarding service, parts and endurance. Many of them realized that buying cheap often means buying twice. Go and make your own experiences - unbeatable. It is as impossible as it is unnecessary to try to convice you. The more as you already seem to have an opinion and whatever others say does not influence it.


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## Yellow Fang (4 Sep 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> It is as impossible as it is unnecessary to try to convice you. The more as you already seem to have an opinion and whatever others say does not influence it.


No, I want Brompton to thrive. But we've all seen what happened to the British motorcycle, car, shipbuilding, aviation and other Industries. There is no point in relying on patriotism when other countries make similar or better stuff much cheaper. I would like to know for a fact those Brompton clones are inferior products. I suspect they're not. Brompton seem like they have been concentrating on things like electric variants, specify-your-own Brompton technology, and bicycle hire schemes. In the meantime, far east manufacturers have worked out how to make reasonable copies of the basic product for lot less money.


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## berlinonaut (4 Sep 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> There is no point in relying on patriotism when other countries make similar or better stuff much cheaper.


Being a German living in Germany I am probably unsuspected of British patriotism... 


Yellow Fang said:


> I would like to know for a fact those Brompton clones are inferior products. I suspect they're not.


Here we go again: You cannot judge w/o experience. Go, make your experiences and judge after having done that.


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## bonzobanana (4 Sep 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> I am not convinced the Brompton's metal frame is all that special. It's heavy. It's made of stovepipe steel. I'm pretty sure it's not made of triple-butted, Reynolds 953 steel tubing, or whatever Reynolds' best tubing is. I don't really see a lot special in quality terms about the components. They are a funny size and some of the components were designed for Brompton. It is interesting that the Brompton cloners have sourced suitable components. I wonder if they sourced them from the same suppliers.



It isn't made of stovepipe steel, its high quality steel sourced from Spain I believe and a mixture of grades that you wouldn't get on basic steel bikes. When Dahon did their aluminium clone of the Brompton it actually turned out heavier and has a harsh ride. I think that's the whole point of the brazing that they can connect different steels with different material properties. In contrast the Brompton clones are not made the same way they are made more cheaply probably with uniform steel across the whole frame. I'll admit I don't know that for sure but that is the typical low cost way of manufacturing. I do know you can weld chromoly steel and high tensile steels together. I have an old Trek mountain bike which is chromoly for the main triangle but high tensile steel for the stays but that would be more uniform thickness because of the welds. I think brazing allows more versatility in that regard. 

I'm not one to belittle high tensile steel anyway I think its a great material for frames. However the term high tensile steel is a general one and can mean many steels of many different types.


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## rogerzilla (4 Sep 2021)

One advantage of lower-strength, thicker steel in this application is that it takes longer to rust through; Reynolds 753 racing frames were popular in the 80s and 90s but a large proportion have now rotted out at the chainstays. Rust doesn't care about high strength and heat treatment!


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## FrankCrank (5 Sep 2021)

I often wondered why Brommies were brazed and not TIG'ed, and if they're using dissimilar metals in the frame that_ might _explain it. As a welder hobbyist, I use both stainless and mild steel on my projects. I use TIG, and always with stainless 304 filler wire - no issues. Not sure if anyone here has enough experience in this area, but I would think a suitable TIG filler wire could used to successfully weld the dissimilar metals on Brommies. At least one of the clones I've seen is TIG'ed, but no idea of what exact tube metal is used. Anyways, I think Bromptons biggest selling point is their pedigree, and that is something the newcomers can't clone.


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## rogerzilla (5 Sep 2021)

Fillet brazing is usually a last resort for odd tube sizes and angles where you can't use a lug. It's labour-intensive, adds a fair bit of dead weight, and the brass isn't cheap either.

Artisan TIG welding is even more expensive (see http://www.vintagemtbworkshop.com/1990-fat-chance-yo-eddy.html for how it can look) but it's lighter and the heat is far more localised.


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## Milkfloat (5 Sep 2021)

Whilst Brommie’s are the best small wheeled folding bike and perhaps the best folding bike all round, I bet if you started an owners thread asking for improvement ideas it would get flooded with great suggestions. Many people recognise that it is the best current product, but certainly not perfect. However, I have been waiting a long time for a company to come along and make a better offering.


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## u_i (5 Sep 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> Many people recognise that it is the best current product, but certainly not perfect. However, I have been waiting a long time for a company to come along and make a better offering.



Good luck waiting! You are very wrong. Brompton is astoundingly well optimized for its functions. The 'improvements' that people usually have in mind are usually optimizations for their own needs or wants. Some want more gears, some want less weight, some more luggage capacity, etc. The existing Brompton is a very good starting point. The way to get there is to get off the couch and do the needed customization or have someone to do them, in place of theorizing.


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## FrankCrank (6 Sep 2021)

I've seen a few Brommies up close, but yet to ride one. I have ridden a few 20" wheeled bikes, folding and non. They're great on small journeys, and to bring in the car when traveling. One thing that immediately strikes me is how twitchy things get when wheel size is reduced, and also ride comfort is compromised. When I get back to Reading I ride a MTB with 26" wheels, and even that struggles on some of the potholes and rough river/canal tracks. Sounds like Bommies are very much a niche thing - in a certain situation nothing can rival them.


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## simongt (6 Sep 2021)

Yellow Fang said:


> far east manufacturers have worked out how to make reasonable copies of the basic product for lot less money.


So, as apparently most frames are made in said 'far east', how come some bikes are still so 'kin expensive then - ?


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## cougie uk (6 Sep 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> One advantage of lower-strength, thicker steel in this application is that it takes longer to rust through; Reynolds 753 racing frames were popular in the 80s and 90s but a large proportion have now rotted out at the chainstays. Rust doesn't care about high strength and heat treatment!


Yep. My beautiful handmade racing frame in 653 corroded through at the chrome chainstays. Wouldn't mind but it only went out in dry weather !


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## simongt (8 Sep 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> Sounds like Bommies are very much a niche thing - in a certain situation nothing can rival them.


Niche to a point. The GLW and I have been riding Brommies for several years now, almost exclusively urban; shopping, pub etc.. For such purposes, they're very hard to beat. Can carry a good load which can simply be lobbed into the front carrier which doesn't affect the handling as it's fixed to the main frame and not the handlebars. 
How do they ride - ? Like a Brommie - !  Because of their unusual design, you can't really compare them with anythng else and we've had Dahon folders and a Giant Halfway. No contest. Brommies are fun - !  And of course, a breeze to fit in a car or on a coach, bus, train.


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## simongt (8 Sep 2021)

Not forgetting that in 1991, Andrew Ritchie was approached by Peter Wang of Eurotai who wanted to licence build Brommies in - yes, Taiwan. Long story short, Ritchie was so appalled at the poor quality control, short cuts, standards, he brought the whole production back to the UK and has stuck with that ever since. 
So the Brommie is still a truly British bike built to top standards, hence the higher price tags.


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## berlinonaut (8 Sep 2021)

simongt said:


> Not forgetting that in 1991, Andrew Ritchie was approached by Peter Wang of Eurotai who wanted to licence build Brommies in - yes, Taiwan. Long story short, Ritchie was so appalled at the poor quality control, short cuts, standards, he brought the whole production back to the UK and has stuck with that ever since.


I would tell the story and it's end slightly differently: Brompton had a scaling problem back then and could not serve demand. Eurothai promised to produce 100s of 1000s of Brommis for wider parts of the Asian market, got a license agreement and in consequence tools, plans and training from Brompton. Ironically David Hon, the owner of Dahon warned Andrew Richie not to do business with them but his advice was ignored. The Brompton bikes built by the joined venture between Brompton and Eurothai, Neobike, were recognizably cheaper but also of way worse quality and Brompton was not happy. If you look at Brompton's balance sheets from that time you can see no positive effect from that licensing in terms of income (at least I could not). The production numbers that were initially promised were never reached, not even a fraction of it. Quality was an issue over the whole period. The breaking handlebars that Brompton's had in the nineties were supplied by Neobike as well.

Being not happy, to say it politely, Andrew Richie ended the license agreement with them at the end of the regular contract after 10 years in 2002. Neobike did not give back tools and plans as it would have been their obligation but instead started to build unlicensed Brompton copies. This is how the whole cloning of Bromptons started and this is also why many of the clones we see today are still based on the MK2 design which Brompton itself got already rid of in 2000.

Some employees of Neobike/Eurothai even ended up in prison as they had also stolen intellectual property from Dahon. Only in recent years some of the cloners start experimenting with i.e. different hinges (not for the better if you ask me) and only very recently some started cloning newer features like the 6-speed. With many clones you see details on the frame that make absolutely no sense today any more or on the clone bikes - they were simply directly copied from the outdated original w/o thinking or any understanding (which you can also see on some details of many of those clones - the makers simply do not understand the product and do not bother). So in the end the majority of Brompton clones we see today are probably still a more or less direct result of the licensing of the production to an Asian manufacturer in the early 90ies - an adventure that ended 20 years ago and probably taught Brompton not just one lesson. I assume one of the reasons why they relate to UK based production is the outcome of the Neobike deal.

A bit about this episode can be found on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neobike


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## Kell (9 Sep 2021)

There is certainly some mistaken belief that "British Made" still stands for guaranteed quality.

When it comes to bikes, I would have no qualms in accepting that the reputable factories in Taiwan produce bikes of equal quality (if not better) to those produced in Europe. The trick, I guess (as outlined above) is knowing which of those factories are reputable.

That jingo-istic, pro-Brexit idea that we can shut ourselves off from the rest of the world and that we are still the 'best' at everything probably hasn't been true for centuries, let alone decades. If it even was true in the first place. We seem to excel at low volume, high-quality, artisanal one-man/woman products, but not really in producing high volumes at anything like a competitive price.

Back on track though, there's no actual reason why any style of folding bike should be worse in quality than a Brompton in absolute terms just because it's manufactured somewhere else. The problem is that with any type of clones (shoes, clothes, jewellery) is that they're normally made with inferior materials and you have very little recompense if things go wrong. The makers are not interested in longevity and customer service and are only interested in taking your money. Bearing in mind that part of my commute involves a 40mph+ downhill, I certainly wouldn't want to be doing that if I thought the bars might snap. Or the hinge might come apart.

Value is often mistakenly equated to price. But (for me) the Brompton absolutely justifies its price. It saves me enough that I could buy two/three a year and still save money. You could argue that a cheaper bike would save me even more, but then (as I've said a few times before) I had two Dahons and they both snapped. Not only that, but I had nothing but trouble with the hinges. They needed constant adjustment and almost always squeaked or creaked. The wheels were poor, the components were of pretty low quality too - and the bikes weren't that much less than a Brompton. 

At £900 my Dahon Matrix was only £180 less expensive than the Brompton that replaced it, but it felt a lot cheaper.


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## rogerzilla (9 Sep 2021)

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Merc-Bro...86&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0#vi__app-cvip-panel

There's one born every minute.


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## FrankCrank (10 Sep 2021)

Kell said:


> There is certainly some mistaken belief that "British Made" still stands for guaranteed quality.
> 
> When it comes to bikes, I would have no qualms in accepting that the reputable factories in Taiwan produce bikes of equal quality (if not better) to those produced in Europe. The trick, I guess (as outlined above) is knowing which of those factories are reputable.
> 
> ...


Speaking of Dahon, saw a video yesterday reviewing two of their bikes out in Japan, both folders, one steel framed and one aly.
They both had something I hadn't seen before, a cable brace:





When the frame is folded, the cable support folds in on itself, much like a brake/gear cable. Presumably, they were having issues with stress fractures, necessitating this new feature. They now say the bikes can carry a rider of 130kg.

As to the Brommie story, think the outsourcing fiasco to Taiwan was of their own making. They needed a member of staff, or a team, there full time to oversee QC, not just taking things on face value. Same goes for China, India or wherever - they can build crap or build to a high standard, just needs careful monitoring.


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## Kell (10 Sep 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> Speaking of Dahon, saw a video yesterday reviewing two of their bikes out in Japan, both folders, one steel framed and one aly.
> They both had something I hadn't seen before, a cable brace:
> View attachment 608452
> 
> ...



Not seen that on a Dahon before, but I did see one on a bike in our old work car park. No idea who it belonged to, and I don't understand enough about engineering to work out what it did*, but it was a full size bike.

I'm sure my brain seems to think it was branded by PUMA (the sportswear brand) - but I'm guessing it wasn't a proprietary design if so.

*I'm guessing as it's a cable, it only helps under tension - so stops the bike folding in half by the seat moving towards the bars.


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## Kell (10 Sep 2021)

The bike, designed by Biomega in collaboration with Puma, integrates a lock within the structure of its frame. If a would-be thief tries to cut the wire, the bike becomes unrideable, but repairable.

Perhaps best of all, the Boston Bike folds up for easy transportation on the go. According to Biomega designer Jens Martin Skibsted, “_The main idea was to get the folding function in the mix & still having a cool & simple object. Most folding bikes are kind of dorky. The inspiration to counter balance that came from BMX & Downhill bikes & American bad boy pop culture._“

Indeed, the bike is everything an urban cyclist could hope for — slick, portable, and impervious to criminals. Want to check out the Boston Bike in person? Take a trip to the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, where it remains on permanent display.


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## rogerzilla (10 Sep 2021)

I bet it climbed like a piece of wet spaghetti. Slingshot mountain bikes were like that 30 years ago. The down tube is in tension but it needs to resist most of the torsion between the bars and the BB, which is huge.


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## FrankCrank (10 Sep 2021)

Kell said:


> View attachment 608478
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's one up for sale on Ebay, starting at 525 quid. Says the bike is around 25 years old, seems that tensioner cable is an old idea.


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## berlinonaut (10 Sep 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> I bet it climbed like a piece of wet spaghetti. Slingshot mountain bikes were like that 30 years ago.


I've never ridden a Slingshot myself but a friend of mine owns one and likes it very much. Also, contemporary voices from the times when Slingshots were in the market claim the opposite of what you say. I.e. this from 1996:


> Unfurled, the bike handles nimbly, as torque normally damped by a stout down tube plucks the cable for a springy ride. And thanks to that built-in elasticity, the rear wheel is always digging in, so traction is exceptional. The bike is quick enough on steady climbs that it feels light, though it actually weighs a slightly pudgy 25.5 pounds.



Or that, from 2010:


> On my current 18-mile commute to work, it saved me over four minutes (my record wend down from 48 minutes to less than 44). Some of the improvements can be traced to my fasater tires and my larger (48t) crankset, but I definitely give part of the improvement to the frame. the "sling" really works - I can feel it mostly when I climb, when I find the bike driving much faster than my former bike. It's not as fast as a roadie, of course, but it's still wicked fast for a mountain bike.



However, personally I have never been convinced enough by the concept to be really interested and did not have the random opportunity to ride one either.


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## Yellow Fang (22 Sep 2021)

Kell said:


> Bearing in mind that part of my commute involves a 40mph+ downhill, I certainly wouldn't want to be doing that if I thought the bars might snap. Or the hinge might come apart.


I did have something snap off my Brompton going down hill once. I think it was a pedal or a crank.

I have often wondered what it is that stops the clamps coming apart. It's powerful physics that is.


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## Kell (22 Sep 2021)

Funnily enough, I was just talking to a fellow Brompton owner yesterday at work and his friend had the handlebars snap on his new Brompton. 

I think he had an M3L to begin with, but Brompton replaced it with a SuperLight.


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## berlinonaut (22 Sep 2021)

Kell said:


> Funnily enough, I was just talking to a fellow Brompton owner yesterday at work and his friend had the handlebars snap on his new Brompton.
> 
> I think he had an M3L to begin with, but Brompton replaced it with a SuperLight.


Could you try to clarify what exactly happened, when and how? Because if there is an issue with the handlebars it would be helpful and interesting to know. Personally I'm not aware of an issue with Brompton handlebars apart from the one's supplied by Neobike in the nineties and had a tendency to break (which ended up in a recall, new handlebars and the "crossbar") and some rare cases of braking handlebars on bikes that had been ridden many years, way more than a decade and way more than the change interval of 5k miles that is recommended in the manual. If there are cases with different patterns it would clearly be interesting to know.


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## tinywheels (22 Sep 2021)

my brompton is ridden hard,commuting and leisure. 
Yes it's expensive. But it pays its way quickly. As someone pointed out,other more expensive bikes are available. 
Most people buy one due to the combination of a quality product, with a unique ability to do what it says on the tin.
Plus the social side of the prod. 
I never regret buying it,and it makes me smile every day.


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## TheDoctor (23 Sep 2021)

There isn't another folding bike I'd go touring on


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## Kell (23 Sep 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> Could you try to clarify what exactly happened, when and how? Because if there is an issue with the handlebars it would be helpful and interesting to know. Personally I'm not aware of an issue with Brompton handlebars apart from the one's supplied by Neobike in the nineties and had a tendency to break (which ended up in a recall, new handlebars and the "crossbar") and some rare cases of braking handlebars on bikes that had been ridden many years, way more than a decade and way more than the change interval of 5k miles that is recommended in the manual. If there are cases with different patterns it would clearly be interesting to know.



I can ask the question when I next see him - but as we're in the office irregularly, it may be a while before I get an answer.


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## ExBrit (23 Sep 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> I've seen a few Brommies up close, but yet to ride one. I have ridden a few 20" wheeled bikes, folding and non. They're great on small journeys, and to bring in the car when traveling. One thing that immediately strikes me is how twitchy things get when wheel size is reduced, and also ride comfort is compromised. When I get back to Reading I ride a MTB with 26" wheels, and even that struggles on some of the potholes and rough river/canal tracks. Sounds like Bommies are very much a niche thing - in a certain situation nothing can rival them.


Hey there Cranky Frank - you are right and you are wrong both at the same time. Bromptons are twitchy but you quickly get used to it and totally forget you are on a folding bike. Then when you go back to your road bike, that feels weird for a few miles. As for comfort, I would say my Brompton is more comfortable than my road bike, probably because of the wider tires and rear suspension. But it can't compare to my full-suspension mountain bike.


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## tinywheels (23 Sep 2021)

personally I took to the brompton immediately. never thought it twitchy. But I am the guy who spent a decade riding an aluminium cannondale. suspension bah humbug. Guess I like a challenge, hence my obsession with riding the brompton to the places others would baulk at.


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## dimrub (27 Sep 2021)

I'm on my second Brompton now, bought the first one - an L3 - in 2005, replaced it with an M6L at some point (maybe it was a mistake, I don't know, I felt like I need the extra gears), but now that I haven't ridden it a few years, riding a modern MTB and gravel bike instead, I can't help it, it seems so outdated. I still love it and what it represents - the tradition, the reliability, the ease of taking it on a train or putting it in my trunk to ride it somewhere, but when I think it can probably be made twice as light with easier maintenance and possibly more reliability with some modern components, it makes me sad. I understand the possible considerations of wanting to get it just right, and the chain of supply, and the availability of components, and not wishing to innovate just for the sake of innovation, but when a run of the mill clone is a pound lighter than your most expensive, stripped of gears model - shouldn't that make one worried?


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## TheDoctor (27 Sep 2021)

It's amazing how many people reckon a Brompton could be made half the weight - yet no manufacturer anywhere, ever, has managed to do so. The aluminium-is-lighter-than-steel Merc weighed more, and didn't last as long. Replace the AW rear hub with a Dura-Ace hub, cassette and rear mech, and you spend a load more money, lose a lot of reliability and save 400 grams...


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## rogerzilla (28 Sep 2021)

I think they've become a bit porkier over the years, with the new spider crankset and no option for a lighter seatpost any more. The main frame could be made lighter with stronger steel. Maybe half a pound to be saved. Generally, Bromptons have been on the light/cheap side of the light/cheap/strong engineering triangle. Half the weight is ridiculous.


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## berlinonaut (28 Sep 2021)

dimrub said:


> I think it can probably be made twice as light with easier maintenance and possibly more reliability with some modern components, it makes me sad.


There are a lot of weight wheenie Brompton builds around. The current max. you can achieve when sticking to the factory steel/ti frame is (out of memory) a tad over 6kg for the bike. So about half of what a factory Brompton weights. But this goes along with loosing a lot of pracitcality (like fenders, robust tires, pedals for normal shoes, geared hubs etc.) and it won't be as robust as a normal Brompton) plus it costs a fortune - so not really practical for a factory build. If you want a bike that is usable in daily life with almost no limitations you can come down to about a tad less than 9kg. This will cost you just an arm instead of an arm and a leg, some limitations will still be there and probably for a factory build still not an adequate direction.

As you do own a Brompton already you can easily start yourself off into a new hobby: Making your Brompton lighter. Fascinating as well as healthy (as you will spend your money for parts you cannot spend it for pints in the pub) and you will make new friends and possibly learn new languages as well (as many tuning parts come from Asian shops and marketplaces).


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## dimrub (28 Sep 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> As you do own a Brompton already you can easily start yourself off into a new hobby: Making your Brompton lighter. Fascinating as well as healthy (as you will spend your money for parts you cannot spend it for pints in the pub) and you will make new friends and possibly learn new languages as well (as many tuning parts come from Asian shops and marketplaces).



I don't really need to. In fact, I made it heavier by installing a Brooks saddle on it. But I'm strong enough to carry it when needed. I'm sure there are people for whom Brompton is a non-starter due to its weight.

Half a weight may be an exaggeration, but here's a carbon knock off that supposedly weighs a pound less than a Ti 2-gear Brompton: 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuNZ-hH5Zkk
- so what, 9.8kg? That's about 4 kg lighter than my M6L, I guess, but with the same gear range. Interestingly, the folding mechanism clamps seem to allow for faster and easier folding (though not necessarily as reliable). According to the guy in this review, this is not a junk bike, on the contrary, he points out quite a few benefits on top of the original in terms of handling (I do wonder about the bigger wheels - Brompton fits under a train seat, and it's a huge benefit, but just barely - 18 inch wheels would kill that).

So given that, I do wonder whether Brompton had tried to look at carbon components and decided against them (and if so, what was the reason) or didn't even look that way.


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## berlinonaut (28 Sep 2021)

dimrub said:


> so what, 9.8kg? That's about 4 kg lighter than my M6L, I guess,


A M6L should be considerably lighter than than 14kg. I ended up at ~14,5 kg with a former M6RD that I converted to S/A 8-speed (which added about 1 kg). Including SON dynamo hub and lights, rear rack, telescopic seatpost, Brooks B17, ergon grips and a full steel frame. So from factory w/o 8-speed, telescopic post, Brooks, rear carrier and dynamo lights I would assume you'd stay shortly below the 13kg mark. 




dimrub said:


> According to the guy in this review, this is not a junk bike, on the contrary, he points out quite a few benefits on top of the original in terms of handling


As always there are upsides and downsides. I've never seen a Chedtech personally but the reviews of people who have ridden one or own one are very mixed. Personally, apart from other things ,the lack of the mounting point for the luggage carrier block alone makes this bike utterly useless to me.



dimrub said:


> So given that, I do wonder whether Brompton had tried to look at carbon components and decided against them (and if so, what was the reason) or didn't even look that way.


Personally, for a commuter folding bike that get's banged around all day in trains, car boots etc. I'd stay away from carbon as far as possible. But that's just a personal opinion.


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## Yellow Fang (28 Sep 2021)

I did hear Andrew Ritchie talk about the Brompton's weight. He said one issue was it had to be strong enough to bear a twenty stone man.

I am strong enough to carry a Brompton, but at railway stations you quite often have to carry them across bridges and concourses. That is quite a weight to lug around that far.


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## Ian H (28 Sep 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> Fillet brazing is usually a last resort for odd tube sizes and angles where you can't use a lug. It's labour-intensive, adds a fair bit of dead weight, and the brass isn't cheap either.


Peugeot's brazing didn't add much weight (I'm told the brazing was automated).



My Hallett for comparison.


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## dimrub (28 Sep 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> A M6L should be considerably lighter than than 14kg. I ended up at ~14,5 kg with a former M6RD that I converted to S/A 8-speed (which added about 1 kg). Including SON dynamo hub and lights, rear rack, telescopic seatpost, Brooks B17, ergon grips and a full steel frame. So from factory w/o 8-speed, telescopic post, Brooks, rear carrier and dynamo lights I would assume you'd stay shortly below the 13kg mark.



You are right! I went ahead and weighed it - it was a lousy luggage scale, but precise enough for the purpose, I think, and it showed 11.5 kg - much less than I remembered! Still, an almost 2kg difference is nothing to sneeze at.



> As always there are upsides and downsides. I've never seen a Chedtech personally but the reviews of people who have ridden one or own one are very mixed. Personally, apart from other things ,the lack of the mounting point for the luggage carrier block alone makes this bike utterly useless to me.



I agree, this mounting point is one of the great features of Brompton. I'm thinking perhaps this fixture can be made integral to the carbon frame, so as to distribute the loads properly.


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## shingwell (28 Sep 2021)

I too strongly suspect that Brompton have tried all sorts of things in the lab. Just because all we see is new bags and special edition paint jobs coming out of the marketing dept doesn't mean they are not trying new things.

The trouble is anything new has to be at least as good as the "old way" and around the same price or cheaper. Even Bromptons are designed down to a price - compare with one of the "price no object" bikes and they start looking like good value.

Personally I wish they would do something about the weird twin selector 6 gear setup but even so I can see other solutions would be heavier or bigger or or less robust or affect the fold or be more expensive.

It's a damn good bike that has reached its weight / reliability / foldability / robustness / practicality / price-point compromises over decades of evolution, and is spot-on for its intended use cases.


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## berlinonaut (28 Sep 2021)

dimrub said:


> You are right! I went ahead and weighed it - it was a lousy luggage scale, but precise enough for the purpose, I think, and it showed 11.5 kg - much less than I remembered! Still, an almost 2kg difference is nothing to sneeze at.


I'd rather say that this is an astonishingly low difference, given the fact that the Bromton is made of lower end steel and fully equipped with mudguards and a steel seatpost whereas the the chedech is made of carbon (including stem and seatpost) and is not only lacking mudguards but also the eylets to mount them. The Brompton 6-speed and the S/A 5-speed on the chedtech are about par in terms of weight, the carbon seatpost saves a couple of 100 grams in comparison to the steel Brompton one, another bit comes from the lack of mudguards. So in the end the whole carbon action may bring in possibly a bit over 1kg. That's not much more than a factory ti-Brompton saves over a steel one and with a ti-Brompton you have a reliable manufacturer and a proven track record.

BTW: The Chinese ti-Brompton-clone mainframes save about 1kg of weight over the original (not counting in stem, forks and rear frame).

The chedech costs 2500$ according to their webpage (close to the bottom of the page just beyond the tech spec) and this does neither include shipping nor taxes. The latter will sum up considerably until the bike is imported and on your doorstep. If you live in Europe (possibly including the uk this time) you will probably not get it anyway as chedech lost a court case against Brompton and is legally considered to be an illegal copy.

If you look around on Chedech's webpage you'll find information like

_* Originally pedal isn't included in this bike. But, we provide a pair of pedal as a service item when Dolce Vita is delivered.
* Various types of rims are applied for wheels. The rim shape of front wheel can be different from that of rear wheel. The logo on the rim of wheel can differ by unit. Some units have 'Chedech' logo on one wheel or both of two wheels. The logo on front wheel and that on rear wheel can be different._

In other words: It is a bit unclear what you will get. There are no accessories available and I do have my doubts about spare parts. The only model avail is for smaller riders, the bar seems to be more or less equivalent to a Brompton S heightwise. It does lack all the goodies for daily use as a commuter, nobody knows how long it (or the company behind it) will last, it is vastly expensive (despite being made in China) and it is illegal. Resale value will differ massively from that of a Brompton (to the negative) and the weight saving is not really impressive.

Chedech initially started out as a campaign on Indigogo in 2015 - which did not generate enough interest to succeed. A bit later there was an interesting discussion on the bikeradar forums where the chedtech founder himself was involved.

They may have had good intentions and high ambitions but in my eyes the product is nowhere near suffient and the carbon frame does not save weight to an amount that would be worth the risks in my eyes. Plus the optics is not my cup of tea as well.


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## Kell (29 Sep 2021)

I have an H6L and mine weighs in at 12.9kg - also on a luggage scale.

however, I've swapped out the handle bars and switched to SPD pedals, I don't know how they compare to the originals weight wise. 

On top of those, I've added bar ends and a rear mudguard protector. I may also have had the lights on it when I weighed it. So you could probably subtract a few 100 grams off that figure for a factory bike.


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## yoho oy (29 Sep 2021)

I looked at Brompton clones before purchasing Brompton. The information is relatively scarce about them. Is it because all these clones are sold primarily in Asian markets and majority of owners don't speak English and don't post on social media? I came to a few conclusions - clones might be a bit heavier and might differ from Brompton. Also when you include shipping costs, tax they are not that much cheaper than Brompton. The third problem is that majority of them are sold on Aliexpress and some even less known websites. To spend £700-£800-£1000 on something than can get lost, damaged for me is too risky. The biggest problem are spare parts and support. How do you know if clones will be in business for a while? Where will you get spare parts? Some of them are dissimilar to Brompton's parts. Where to get any support if things go wrong? Exchange?  Warranty?  So there is a lot of things to think about. Sure, if clones were in a range of £200-£250, the risk would be smaller.


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## Kell (29 Sep 2021)

All good points. To me it would only be worth buying a clone if it was significantly cheaper or offered a genuine upgrade in some way. 

Then having said that, I'm not sure I'd trust a cheap, folding bike from a dubious source. Would the R&D be good enough? Would a far-eastern brand be designed for a fat western bloke like me. Even Dahons are only rated to a maximum rider + luggage weight of 95kg. i only found this out after mine snapped - it was never pointed out to me during the buying phase at Evans.

I had a long chat with a guy in the Brompton Junction before taking the plunge and he told me that they're rated to 130kg - and that's to do with the brakes being able to stop you, rather than the strength of the frame.


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## berlinonaut (29 Sep 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> The chedech costs 2500$ according to their webpage
> (...) nobody knows how long it (or the company behind it) will last





yoho oy said:


> The biggest problem are spare parts and support. How do you know if clones will be in business for a while? Where will you get spare parts? Some of them are dissimilar to Brompton's parts. Where to get any support if things go wrong? Exchange?  Warranty?  So there is a lot of things to think about. Sure, if clones were in a range of £200-£250, the risk would be smaller.


Hum, yesterday Chedech's webpage was fully functional, today this is what you get when you follow the link to their homepage :






Let's hope that this is just a hickup and not final.

Edit/Update: It's back on. No https avail though...


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## u_i (29 Sep 2021)

Kell said:


> Then having said that, I'm not sure I'd trust a cheap, folding bike from a dubious source. Would the R&D be good enough?



When buying parts by independent manufacturers, that are supposed to improve Brompton, it happened to me a number of times to realize that those manufacturers do not fully understand how the part is supposed to function. Yes, one of those manufacturers has been Litepro that now brands a Brompton clone. How are you to clone successfully when you struggle understanding the functions?!


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## yoho oy (29 Sep 2021)

Well basically when you buy something from a company, you are supporting the company to continue their business (with a few exceptions when some companies just want to grab your money and fold up as soon as they can). So I would like Brompton to continue their business. In that case we will be able to get parts, and support when needed. Brompton clones sell no less than £700. In fact it is probably more when you add shipping and taxes. £850 is B75... Sure, it is an entry model, quite stripped down and with some older generation components, but it is still a Brompton. Asian version clones have some differences and parts differ from one brand to another. There is very little support from any of the clone brands. It seems some of them include some extra parts in a box with a bike (probably just for some youtubers? but not with every order). Another question everyone should ask - why would some people in Asia would buy original Bromptons rather than clones? It is much cheaper for them to buy a clone. There are quite a few local bike shops selling clones. Better support, etc. I would say that in EU/UK it is better to buy different brand foldable bike. I liked Decathlon folders- Oxylane 100 is just £200. 120 is £250. At this price you really getting a lot of a bike. Parts, support, stores everywhere. On other hand these foldables are more aimed for people with cars and fold and store types. They are heavy. 3kg difference for a folder is a lot.


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## tinywheels (30 Sep 2021)

I got over the weight saving malarkey in my MTB days. Most people could do with losing the excess lard their carrying around on their lardy carcasses. Much cheaper than bling bits for your brompton. 
If you're obsessed about losing a couple of grams on a mudgard stay,then you need professional help,in my opinion. 
Anyone who uses this clever bike on a daily basis,in the environment it was designed for. Will attest to its superior quality's. It attracts those who appreciate its quirky nature.


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## FrankCrank (30 Sep 2021)

I'll try and give a perspective from SE Asia, being as I live in Thailand mainly, and like bikes and stuff.
I'll start by making a sweeping statement, that Asians in general are given to ostentation - they like to flaunt how well off they are.
A good way to do this is to ride an expensive bike, clad head to toe in garish coloured Lycra. Like I said, they love to show off.
Now then, in Thailand, a propper Brommie starts at nearly a grand and a half, what with import duties:
https://tinywheelsth.com/collections/brompton

As a result, not many of the locals can afford this, but all is not lost. Big Brother, by courtesy of Aliexpress, can provide a looky-likey at less than one third the price:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002008032311.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4b916746PbtVjq&algo_pvid=a58d6e79-6f93-42b7-a0d3-90c00e5c8750&algo_exp_id=a58d6e79-6f93-42b7-a0d3-90c00e5c8750-0&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id":"12000018392085361"}

This gives you the opportunity to impress, at a fraction of the price, and all will be amazed as you whizz past blinged to the hilt.

As we know, clones lack pedigree and after sales support etc, none of which matter to those eager to impress their peers. Can only see more and more doppelgangers enter the scene, just a case of supply and demand really


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## tinywheels (30 Sep 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> I'll try and give a perspective from SE Asia, being as I live in Thailand mainly, and like bikes and stuff.
> I'll start by making a sweeping statement, that Asians in general are given to ostentation - they like to flaunt how well off they are.
> A good way to do this is to ride an expensive bike, clad head to toe in garish coloured Lycra. Like I said, they love to show off.
> Now then, in Thailand, a propper Brommie starts at nearly a grand and a half, what with import duties:
> ...


each to their own


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## berlinonaut (30 Sep 2021)

Kell said:


> Would a far-eastern brand be designed for a fat western bloke like me. Even Dahons are only rated to a maximum rider + luggage weight of 95kg. i only found this out after mine snapped - it was never pointed out to me during the buying phase at Evans.


The Chedech is rated to 100kg max. and the standard seatpost is 500mm, the longer version 550mm according to their technical data. That's 5cm less than the Brompton extended post, let alone the telescopic one. So not really a good fit for taller people (which counts for the stem, too).


Kell said:


> I had a long chat with a guy in the Brompton Junction before taking the plunge and he told me that they're rated to 130kg - and that's to do with the brakes being able to stop you, rather than the strength of the frame.


I remember the 130kg (or even 140kg?) as well - however, they have lowered the limit: Today Brompton communicate 110kg max for a couple of years. In practice way more has proven to be not a problem (which would make sense with the statement you got about the brakes, not the frame being the limitation).


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## yoho oy (3 Oct 2021)

Well, if anyone is willing to take a plunge and buy one of these clones and later on do a proper long term review and comparison with a real thing here are the clone list (some of them just frames/parts rather than a whole bike):

1 Mobot camp royale
2 Pikes
3 Paikesi
4 3Sixty
5 Litepro
6 Week eight
7 Motachie or Motach E
8 AceofFix (ACE 01)
9 Chedech (carbon fiber clone)
10 Billiton (aluminium frame clone)

Some of them could be made in the same factory, and assembled with different components and different badges.


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## FrankCrank (3 Oct 2021)

Watched a video where a chap was replacing the bushings on the rear triangle. The special reaming tool alone cost 200 quid. I'm sure I heard somewhere that only certain Brommie dealers were allowed to carry out this procedure. Typically, my clunkers have low running costs over say, several years of ownership. Just run of the mill parts and my own labour. I'm wondering what the running cost are likely to be for a Brommie, again over several years of ownership. If a long term review of the clones, as suggested above, were possible, it would be nice to compare all the costs, and not just the purchase price. Asking the impossible I know, but just a thought.

PS - another one for the list - LA Neo Stage, LA being a Thai brand.


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## berlinonaut (3 Oct 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> Watched a video where a chap was replacing the bushings on the rear triangle. The special reaming tool alone cost 200 quid. I'm sure I heard somewhere that only certain Brommie dealers were allowed to carry out this procedure.




First, regarding the tools: There are basically four special tools available for Brompton maintenance. None of those is needed, all of them make the work easier, more reliable and quicker.

*1. The reamer for rear triangle bushings*: The kit costs 160€ (enduser price) - nowhere near GBP 200 quid. You could use any other suitable reamer but you will need something "reamerish" when changing the bushes. At least if you want them to last.






*2. The reamer for the seat post sleeve.* The kit costs 167€ end user price and while you can mc-gyver the process w/o this tool fitting a new sleve is waaaaaaay easier and better to perform using that tool and the outcome will clearly be lightyears better.






*3. The hinge pin press.* It is specially constructed by Brompton and costs 145€. You can do the work w/o it but it makes life much easier. In a workshop time is money and reliability of the process is worth money.






*4. The reamer for the hinge pins.* Available in various sizes, 33€ each. Only needed if the hinge pin is eol and you need the next size - then you need to ream the hinge accordingly. Very rarely needed - and I heavily doubt that any other brand like i.e. Dahon is offering over-size hinge-pins at all.





So if you buy the whole lot you end up at like 600€ for all special tools that may ever be needed on a Brompton. End user prices and including VAT. Obviously way cheaper for a company as you''ll pay a lower price than a enduser beforehand, get back the VAT (~20%) from that lower price and the remaining cost will even lower the taxable income of the company. Not too for much a professional commercial workshop if you ask me. It is an investment as any other tool is. What do you think special professional tools for other bikes (including diagnostic software and hardware for electric bikes) or generic professional bike tools cost?
Possibly the price for the Brompton tools is too much for a private person - simply not worth it. But they are not the target audience anyway, as with any professional tools. Even many dealers do not have the tools and many do lack the knowledge as well how to perform changes like the rear bushings or even the seat post sleeve properly. In many cases they don't take the order (especially with the rear hinge) or ship the bike to someone competent or (the worst case) the result will speak for itself (in a negative way). If I was to buy one tool it would be the seat post sleeve kit. As I've done the change with and w/o the kit I know what a difference it makes. Same goes for the other tools - just that as I private person I do not need them regularly whereas with the sleeve tool after three changes you've already saved money in comparison to let a workshop perform the task. If you own more than one Brompton and/or ride and fold a lot it may be worth it. If you let a workshop perform the task I'd let them show the tool to you beforehand as a proof that they know what they are doing... Worth noting that a fool with a tool is still a fool - owning the tools is one thing, using them properly is another.
If you are too greedy to buy the tools and to greedy to let the professional workshops buy the tools or too greedy to let the work perform by a professional workshop you'll pay a price. Either in terms of time or quality or both.



FrankCrank said:


> Typically, my clunkers have low running costs over say, several years of ownership. Just run of the mill parts and my own labour. I'm wondering what the running cost are likely to be for a Brommi, again over several years of ownership.


I've done this calculation with a M6RD several years ago and the result was 4,17€/month over a period of 10 years. This included initial price for the bike, the loss in value and a virtual resale price after 10 years, the parts and the maintenance (simple things like chain and tire change done self, complicated things like sleeve and bushings done by a workshop) and it was conservatively calculated regarding the resale value. This was done based on my experiences in terms of cost and maintenance of a decade riding a Brompton throughout the year. Which means here in Berlin if you save two single tickets for public transport in the inner city per month by using the Brompton instead it has already payed for itself. In the meantime prices have gone up a fair bit but so has resale value. So it should be more or less similar today. I don't remember exactly how many kms per year I assumed for the calculation back then - it was somewhere between 2000 and 5000.
No, a Brompton is not expensive - it is indeed a very cheap mode of transport. If you avoid diving into the tuning hobby at least..


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## yoho oy (3 Oct 2021)

I think the draw to brompton is for the relatively light weight and functional folding. There are plenty of folders, at different prices, but most of them weight much more. There are many folding bikes, but most of them fold in awkward shapes and are hard to handle. Brompton nailed with their folding - can be easily moved, pushed, used as shopping cart, etc. Speaking about price... Brompton is not cheap. I can see similar ideas of price justification from one cult like electronic gadget company with fruit logo. They say- "oh, our devices cost just £2000 (or whatever the latest model is), but it can last 5 years. Sure, but fan loyalists buy a new phone every year. I could buy like 10 of them for the same price from different company and have at least 80% functionality and change them every few months. Glad I got out of that cult and never looked back. 

My father had a bike that lasted very very long time. I am not sure might be he still has it. We are talking about at least 20 year with ALL ORIGINAL PARTS. Try beating that! Well a few catches are these- the bike was not used on daily basis, and it was always kept indoors in a garage or other area out of elements. I am not sure about inner tubes, but even tyres were the same since the day he bought the bike. It was very simple bike- one speed, foot brake. Bike was heavy, all metal parts and steel frame.


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## yoho oy (3 Oct 2021)

Speaking about bushings:
https://brompton.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010560298-Rear-Hinge-Servicing

*How often will this need doing?*

The time in which these bushings wear out varies enormously dependent on the amount of use, style of riding, rider weight/power output, number of folds, general cleanliness of the bike, etc.


_For comparison: our resident test technician rides approximately 30 miles a day, 3 days a week on his Brompton and requires a rear hinge replacement service around every 4 months._

This comes from official Brompton website.
Brompton Rear hinge bush and spindle kit, excluding reamer costs about £22.5? So even if it is done by the bike owner with just part cost, we come to £67.5 per year? The job itself by experienced technician cost £40? Are we talking about £190 per year then?
On other hand I found some owners who say that they did the replacement only after years of owning the bike.


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## FrankCrank (4 Oct 2021)

berlinonaut said:


> First, regarding the tools: There are basically four special tools available for Brompton maintenance. None of those is needed, all of them make the work easier, more reliable and quicker.
> 
> *1. The reamer for rear triangle bushings*: The kit costs 160€ (enduser price) - nowhere near GBP 200 quid. You could use any other suitable reamer but you will need something "reamerish" when changing the bushes. At least if you want them to last.
> View attachment 611964
> ...


Was merely sharing some thoughts on a video I'd recently viewed - no need to get on your high horse. Please refer to the title of this forum - CycleChat. Bromptons are bicycles, and I like chatting about bicycles, so what's the issue? You seem to be an authority on Brompton maintenance, perhaps you could upload a suitable video yourself. Just to clarify, it was never my intention to spread 'phantasy facts' as you claim, neither on this occasion or any other.


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## berlinonaut (4 Oct 2021)

yoho oy said:


> Brompton is not cheap. I can see similar ideas of price justification from one cult like electronic gadget company with fruit logo. They say- "oh, our devices cost just £2000 (or whatever the latest model is), but it can last 5 years. Sure, but fan loyalists buy a new phone every year. I could buy like 10 of them for the same price from different company and have at least 80% functionality and change them every few months. Glad I got out of that cult and never looked back.


The price discussion is pretty useless in my eyes. A Brompton does it's job and if what it does fit your needs get one. If not not. For some it has become a fashion item over the last years but for most it is a tool. A tool that is worth it's price and that has not really an alternative that is as good. Many people spend more on alloy wheels for their car than a Brompton costs an nobody complains about that. In opposite to the Brompton those alloy wheels don't pay for themselves. Most people buy a car that is more expensive than necessary - they could do with a Dacia or Lada but buy a VW, BMW or Merc instead (or even a Jag or Range Rover). Noone questions the price of these. So why do people do that with a Brompton? No one is forced to buy one, the price calculation is even pretty transparent - so get one or leave it. Complaining just makes no sense. 


yoho oy said:


> My father had a bike that lasted very very long time. I am not sure might be he still has it. We are talking about at least 20 year with ALL ORIGINAL PARTS. Try beating that! Well a few catches are these- the bike was not used on daily basis, and it was always kept indoors in a garage or other area out of elements. I am not sure about inner tubes, but even tyres were the same since the day he bought the bike. It was very simple bike- one speed, foot brake. Bike was heavy, all metal parts and steel frame.


I do own a Brompton from 1999, all original parts. It has been converted to a Brecki from day one on and did about 4000-5000kms overall. If you don't ride much it is no issue to keep the parts original for many years... There are thousands of Bromptons around that are 20 years old and older and mostly original.



yoho oy said:


> Brompton Rear hinge bush and spindle kit, excluding reamer costs about £22.5? So even if it is done by the bike owner with just part cost, we come to £67.5 per year? The job itself by experienced technician cost £40? Are we talking about £190 per year then?
> On other hand I found some owners who say that they did the replacement only after years of owning the bike.


In reality the hinge bushes last between about 3500km (which is the lowest outlayer I ever heard of) to more than 40.000km. If you reach the 20.000km point you should calculate that a change may be needed sooner or later. That's about what I got when asking around a lot of Brompton riders. Myself I did not need to change the bushings on one of my bikes yet despite riding daily. I did however need to change the bushings on a bike that I bought used for a friend that was ridden very intensively for years with little love or maintenance. And another one of my Brommis that I bought used did have them changed with its first owner - the bike was 13 years old when I bought it and had about 30.000km on the clock. One change of the hinge bushes.
Brompton's resident test rider is - as any test rider - expected to destroy and outlast things. Way quicker and more intensive than an ordinary rider would. That is his job - he get's _paid_ for that. There's a single person on the world that needs new bushings every 3 months / 1100 miles - which is clearly an outlayer and told as an amusing anecdote on Brompton's website. It has absolutely nothing to do with the need of a normal rider. How come that you take that outlayer immediately as the regular interval of changing the bushes?
BTW: even your calculation is wrong. There is a kit including the bushings, the axle and a drill and there is a cheaper one that just includes the bushings. After 20.000-40.000 km typically the axle is worn, so you need the more expensive bigger kit. After three months there is no way that the axle would be worn (at least I cannot imagine one), so you would only need to replace the (cheaper) bushings. And I don't want to imagine how harsh that rider must treat his bike to wear the bushings in three months. If I needed to replace the bushings every three months I would clearly see this as a construction failure, no matter what ist costs. Considering the cost involved let this perform in a workshop I probably would not ride a Brompton then (as would probably many others) and clearly either Brompton or a third party would have developed a longer lasting alternative... Do you really believe every Brompton rider changes the rear hinge bushings every three months? W/o anybody talking about it?


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## Kell (4 Oct 2021)

What I would say wrt to the above conversation is that when you're looking for information, it's often very difficult to find it because so many forums contain anecdotal advice. 

I'd much rather have someone (like @berlinonaut) pointing out why these things are wrong - and then we can have a healthy debate about that.

It's great to be able to have a conversation about these topics as something which has become "internet fact", is very often misleading and potentially dangerous. At the least, it could proive excessively costly. As in the quote from the Brompton website above. I've had my bike for 6 years, the bushes have not been replaced - even when I took it in to my local Brompton specialists and asked them to look at them they said it wasn't necessary. 

On a normal week (i.e. pre-pandemic) I'd ride around 16 miles a day, 5 days a week. I'm over 100kg and would ride in the worst of London's weather throughout the year. Only if it was snowing, would I not take the Brompton. So I'd say I'm fairly hard on the bike.

On the other hand, I do change my chain, chainring and sprockets every 6 months because I had two chains snap on me. One was on my old Dahon and one was on the Brompton. The first left me with a broken coccyx and the second with a sprained wrist. So while, anecdotally, that has happened to me, I wouldn't say it's common. I wouldn't recommend that other people follow this maintenace routine, but *personally *I do think it's worth it. For me.

Forums *are *a great resource. They're even better when you can construct a reasoned and reasonable argument.


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## yoho oy (4 Oct 2021)

Yup, just don't see why would anyone defend a bike like their dear life depended on it. Brompton makes ok bikes, I am still waiting for mine to arrive - 11 days passed already. I think they will go for max mentioned in their e-mail- 18... That is for non-complicated, stock bike in one of 3 most popular colors that was listed as available in stock on the day I ordered. Plus factory is in the same city... So they have a lot of things to improve, especially when bike is sold at the premium price among folders.


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## dimrub (4 Oct 2021)

yoho oy said:


> Brompton makes ok bikes



I have to disagree here . Brompton is one of those iconic products, like VW Beetle, or Ford T, or a Singer sewing machine, that through meticulous design and lucky timing define the field that they represent. When talking about a folding bicycle, the comparison to Brompton is inevitable, even if it ends up losing in such a comparison. It seems to be frozen in time, and they took forever to come up with an electric version, even after the market was flooded with 3rd party conversion kits, but the quality, the stability of the design, the elegant form, the few carefully chosen properties optimized to perfection are what caused this to become a cult product, with its fervent following richly represented in this thread . I wish my Brompton was much lighter, I wish it was easier to maintain (fixing a flat is a nightmare!) I wish it had all the bells and whistles of a modern bike, but I'll love it and I'll hold to it nevertheless, even though I haven't really ridden it in earnest for years now.


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## u_i (4 Oct 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> Was merely sharing some thoughts on a video I'd recently viewed - no need to get on your high horse. Please refer to the title of this forum - CycleChat. Bromptons are bicycles, and I like chatting about bicycles, so what's the issue? You seem to be an authority on Brompton maintenance, perhaps you could upload a suitable video yourself. Just to clarify, it was never my intention to spread 'phantasy facts' as you claim, neither on this occasion or any other.



I baffled by the attempt to push responsibility for reporting correct info on others.


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## yoho oy (6 Oct 2021)

dimrub said:


> I have to disagree here . Brompton is one of those iconic products, like VW Beetle, or Ford T, or a Singer sewing machine, that through meticulous design and lucky timing define the field that they represent. When talking about a folding bicycle, the comparison to Brompton is inevitable, even if it ends up losing in such a comparison. It seems to be frozen in time, and they took forever to come up with an electric version, even after the market was flooded with 3rd party conversion kits, but the quality, the stability of the design, the elegant form, the few carefully chosen properties optimized to perfection are what caused this to become a cult product, with its fervent following richly represented in this thread . I wish my Brompton was much lighter, I wish it was easier to maintain (fixing a flat is a nightmare!) I wish it had all the bells and whistles of a modern bike, but I'll love it and I'll hold to it nevertheless, even though I haven't really ridden it in earnest for years now.


I owned some expensive items in the past, and if you look at them very close, you see that marketing is a big part of the strategy. Also Brompton does use a lot of machine work too these days. Just look at some factory tour videos on youtube. Most of the things these days with higher price tag are made in China and even materials not that great. So most companies capitalize on their brand name. There is one quite cult like product with fruit logo in electronics space. In my oppinion their products simply s**k. But how many people want to stand out of the crowd by asking others "do you have XYZ charger?" As if charging the phone supposed to be some sort of privilege. At the end of the day Brompton is still a bike. Yes, it folds neatly, weights a bit less (probably sacrificing some riding comfort compared with 20" bikes). One thing that I am baffled about is that after ordering a bike they don't email you invoice, or order tracking number and spam you with useless emails about buying more things from them (at full price of course) when you simply have zero need for them- you haven't got the bike yet.


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## rogerzilla (6 Oct 2021)

yoho oy said:


> Speaking about bushings:
> https://brompton.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010560298-Rear-Hinge-Servicing
> 
> *How often will this need doing?*
> ...


It'll be the higher (technician) cost, as Brompton won't sell you the tool if you live in the UK. They sell it in countries without an extensive dealer network, but the only shop I could find it for sale was in Belgium, and it's one that won't ship to Brexit Island.


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## yoho oy (15 Oct 2021)

Some cheaper brompton clones started popping up on Aliexpress and they are shipped from France. 3 speed Litepro models at £287 with free shipping. Sounded too good to be true. It seems it was- the stores had no reviews on any items they were selling (from bike parts to watches) and now they are gone from aliexpress. Shipping is not a problem, it seems it can go as low as £38 from China from more legit(?) stores.


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## yoho oy (15 Oct 2021)

Here is titanium brompton clone at £4188 from China. Too expensive for 9.8kg


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## rogerzilla (15 Oct 2021)

I bought a Litepro crankset for £15 new on the Bay of Thieves. It is unusable Chinese dross, out of true and out of round. If the bikes are like that, they are landfill-in-waiting.


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## yoho oy (15 Oct 2021)

rogerzilla said:


> I bought a Litepro crankset for £15 new on the Bay of Thieves. It is unusable Chinese dross, out of true and out of round. If the bikes are like that, they are landfill-in-waiting.


I will definitely buy Litepro ez wheel extension for my brompton once it is delivered and will let you know about quality.


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## yoho oy (10 Jan 2022)

One chap in Hungary went Brompton clone route, specifically Litepro. Here is his adventures. 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIEZTGhQ-XA
Post is recent, so anyone can ask him more questions about the bike. I think the bike itself is OK, but the problem is unsuitable shipping and actually quite steep price. Interestingly enough he purchased the bike directly from Litepro.


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## berlinonaut (10 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> I think the bike itself is OK, but the problem is unsuitable shipping and actually quite steep price. Interestingly enough he purchased the bike directly from Litepro.


Time will tell if the bike itself really is ok. Regarding the price he seems to have a lot of luck. He paid:
800$ for the bike
15$ for the shipment
On top of that he should have paid:
27% Hungarian VAT
10% import customs
48,5% anti-dumping tarif for bike imports to the EU from China (1)

With all import duties applied legally correct this would then sum up to something in the area of 1500$. Not really a bargain in comparison to a real genuine Brompton if you ask me. The poster of the video missed to take the anti-dumping tarifs into account and furthermore missed to take customs into account - he just calcultated with the Hungarian VAT. Which then he was lucky not to be charged with. Plus the seller gave him a 300$ rebate afterwards for the damages the bike suffered from during transport. So effectively he paid just 500$ - 1/3 of what he legally was ought to pay. Plus he was lucky that the customs in hungary did obviously not only not honor the import laws but also not recognize the fact that he imported a counterfeit product - otherwise he had had the risk of the bike being confiscated at customs with a total loss of his money as a consequence (plus possibly a fine for trying an illegal import).

However: For judging on the bike one should have in mind the price gap he paid to a legal price and if one thinks about importing one one should consider the cost and the potential risk involved. With all that in mind importing a fake Brompton from China seems not at all attractive to me, not even if the bike would be equal to a Brompton in terms of quality.

So the price he paid is not at all steep - 500$, really? Being too greedy often leeds to simply wasting your money completely...

So in the end you have the choice to

a) go to a shop, buy a Brompton for ~1500€, known qualitiy, warranty, well know spare parts situation, fully legal, high resale value
b) taking a bet: pay a company in China 800$ plus shipping for a fake Brompton, get hopefully something but clearly of unknown quality and in unknown state, possibly no warranty an no spare parts, a low to non existent resale value and possibly no bike at all. You end up paying something between 500$ and 1500$ for a triple or quadruple bet and safely with a product (if at all) that is of considerably lower quality than an original Brompton in many aspects.

One must be either a serious gambler or a really stupid person to take that bet and the risks tied to it in my opinion. If you are short on money it is even more stupid to take the risk of a total loss or a bike that's not fit for purpose - you should better avoid risks in such a situation and would be far better off to buy a used original Brompton for possibly around 1000€ (or even a A-line), so in the area of what you are willing/able to invest anyway but w/o the risk.

----------
(1) anti dumping tarifs against bikes (apart from ebikes) from China have been active as long as since 1993. They have been finally decided in their latest revision at the beginning of 2019 with the following amounts:
Zhejiang Baoguilai Vehicle Co. Ltd.: 19,2 %
Oyama Bicycles (Taicang) Co. Ltd.: 0 %
Ideal (Dongguan) Bike Co. Ltd.: 0 %
Giant China Co. Ltd.: 0 %
all others : 48,5 %

Here's the current list of goods with anti-dumping tax of Dec. 2021 (from Austria, but should apply to all EU countries including Hungary): https://www.bmdw.gv.at/dam/jcr:f0b5545e-19ac-446a-be2b-c88beccaaf27/Antidumping Warenliste.pdf
Here's the according EU legal document: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32019R0073&qid=1548320414059&from=DE


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## CEBEP (10 Jan 2022)

Litepro sent him damaged parts at once. He would probably need to wait for Brompton to send the same for 6 months or so  

Good service Litepro.


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## berlinonaut (10 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> Litepro sent him damaged parts at once. He would probably need to wait for Brompton to send the same for 6 months or so


Well, according to the video he is still waiting for the parts to arrive. Looking at the video and the damages what he reiceived was a piece of trash. One would clearly not accept a bike in this state from any local shop and if posted, would immediately send it back. Only due to the fact that the seller is far away in China and everything is a total hassle there's at all the need and opportunity at all to replace those parts.


































CEBEP said:


> Good service Litepro.



It is no doubt a fair behavior from Litepro - on the other hand: We do not know how was initially paid for the bike. If it was i.e. paid via Paypal or Credit Card the alternative would have been that they end up with nothing. Justified, because of one of the most shitty packaging jobs I ever saw. From a bike manufacturer. Plus what you can see i.e. regarding the pedals or the length of the rear mudguard you can already get the idea where the price comes from and the downsides of the bike are.

Please keep in mind that legally that bike would have costed him about 1500$. With that in mind a 300$ rebate for a trashed counterfeit fake bike copy does not sound overly excessive but rather still not acceptable in comparison to the final price. He was lucky to escape all the taxes, so for him it is a 37,5% rebate. Normally it would have been just 20%. Would for me not have been attractive (as would the bike not have been at the fully legal price). And obviously that kind of managing sales, shipments and defects does not sound like a legal, healthy and scalable business model either...


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## shingwell (10 Jan 2022)

It seems foolish to me to boast about not paying the legally required import taxes and duties on a public youtube video. A bit like those people who hold a phone in one hand filming themselves driving at 100mph+ and posting a public video, and then getting a visit from the police. 🤭


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## CEBEP (10 Jan 2022)

Should've we placed a Brompton in a carton box with no other packaging material and ship it across the globe, it would probably sustain same damage or worse. It's a seller's fault not to pack it properly and says nothing about bike quality. Based on carton box condition in the video clip I can see that package was heavily abused during delivery.

We also don't know what components were used on the bike as buyer seemed to be happy with it overall, but didn't dive into details in this video. And it's not same taxation policy all around the world. Here it Turkey we don't have 48% antidumping taxes for deliveries from China and Brompton bikes here are more expensive than in Germany, if you can find one. This will make price difference far more significant.

I guess everyone will decide for themselves if price difference will be worth it to buy one bike or the other. It's good to have a choice.


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## berlinonaut (10 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> Should've we place a Brompton in a carton box with no other packaging material and ship it across the globe it would've probably sustain same damage if not worst. It's a seller's fault not to pack it properly and says nothing about bike quality. Based on carton box condition on the video the package was heavily abused during delivery.


Which is quite normal and which is why Brompton has decades ago developed a special box for shipping Bromptons - as they do it constantly it is worth it. This also counts to the professionalism. You should not forget that the bike was sold and shipped by Litepro themselves who claim to be the maker of the bike. And they just threw it into a generic packaging w/o any protection.


CEBEP said:


> We also don't know what components were used on the bike as buyer seemed to be happy with it overall but didn't dive into details in this video.


You can see some of the details and components in the video and they are far from being impressive. Plus you should not forget that the buyer does not know a "real" Brompton. So for one he cannot compare and secondly it is human nature to like things that you just bought, especially when you get unexpected discount... To be honest: He seemed to be rather surprised that the thing actually rode.



CEBEP said:


> I guess everyone will decide for themselves if price difference will be acceptable for them for such purchase. The good thing is to have a choice.


That's absolutely true. Plus there will always people be willing to buy fake products because the do not honor the intellectual work that was needed to create the original. And there will always be people wo buy things just because they are cheap, they do neither need nor understand the quality and the diferences and then claim their fake product would be of the same quality as the original, no matter if that's true or not.

I guess it all comes down to attitude, expectations and needs. Would you buy a gadget, that's nice to have but nothing more in a counterfeit version from China? Would you do it with a tool that you rely on on daily basis for the next ten years? Would you do it with - in Corona times - let's say a ventilation machine for a hospital? When the original from the UK costs double the price? Would you do it with a Picasso painting? And would you then in each of these cases produce a youtube video, proudly presenting the counterfeit?


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## CEBEP (10 Jan 2022)

Whatever product line I would look into, in China there are always 3 main levels of producers. 

1. as cheap as possible. High quantity. 
2. avarage quality - avarage price. 
3. good quality, right mindset, investing in R&D and higher price. 

I believe bikes are something similar too where you can find all 3. Guys from Level 3. may be able to offer much higher quality products in time.


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## berlinonaut (10 Jan 2022)

David Hon, the founder of Dahon, wrote a book about folding bikes and their market back in 2015. It is freely available for download. While I do not agree with everything he writes I generally agree with his classification of folding bike brands which he groups into five segments:

_Different brands have different “supply chain strategies” behind the scenes that can fundamentally affect their products and services. A supply chain may be made up of three links, namely: design, production, and marketing. “Design” includes invention, engineering and product aesthetic design. It has to be a non-stop effort to improve, like anything. “Production” includes tooling, mass production and quality assurance. “Marketing” includes planning and execution of marketing/sales policies. Five different types of supply chains might be recognized (and nice to know): 

1. International companies who manage all three links; design, manufacturing and marketing. This type has the most vertical integration and can theoretically supply the best products and services for the costs; but economy-of-scale and geo-economy can be serious challenges. (This type include: Di Blasi, Dahon, Brompton, Oyama, Giant, bike Friday, Ubike, Jango.) 

2. Marketers with Designs. Marketers who do their own designs, place orders with original equipment manufacturers (OEM). Theoretically better than 1 above in division of labor. (Montague, Birdy, Raleigh, Tern, Allen Sport) Communication and shortage of over-lapping expertise can bring nagging problems. 

3. All links independent. All three chain links are handled by different companies. This type can theoretically be a nice synergy between East and West and can produce good innovative products. But problems mentioned for 2 above can be exacerbated. (Birdy, Pacific, Ubike) 8 

4. Importers from OEM. Western importers who buy from Asian OEM manufacturers with little designing from either party. Copying is the key. They survive by aggressive pricing and promotion. 

5. OEM manufacturers, mostly from China, who offer Folding Bicycle with their own logos, and touting “factory direct” on the Internet and other mass outlets. While typically new to quality assurance and marketing protocols, they are most price competitive. (Find them in Alibaba and Aliexpress). Again, copying is the name of the game; legal entanglement is frequent._

I guess the fact that in David Hon's supply chain definition the words "after sales support/ sustomer suport" and "spare parts" do not show up also tells us something about his own brand  (and unfortunately this holds true  and legends say that this is one of the things that then led to the splitup in his family and the founding or Tern).


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## u_i (10 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> David Hon, the founder of Dahon, wrote a book about folding bikes and their market back in 2015.
> _1. International companies who manage all three links; design, manufacturing and marketing. This type has the most vertical integration and can theoretically supply the best products and services for the costs; but economy-of-scale and geo-economy can be serious challenges. (This type include: Di Blasi, Dahon, Brompton, Oyama, Giant, bike Friday, Ubike, Jango.) _
> 
> I guess the fact that in David Hon's supply chain definition the words "after sales support/ sustomer suport" and "spare parts" do not show up also tells us something about his own brand  (and unfortunately this holds true  and legends say that this is one of the things that then led to the splitup in his family and the founding or Tern).



Hmm, I bought a Dahon in China in the past. The experience was as follows: The rack had incorrectly drilled holes and these were covered with the nuts, so you could not see them. The folding pedals fell apart in a matter of weeks. The steel that the chainring was made of was so soft that it got bent in normal use. The spokes started dropping off after several months as if they were leaves on trees in autumn. The shifter fell apart within a year. When you went to the shops that were listed as Dahon dealers on Dahon website, about 5 out 6 were not there anymore. When you went to Giant stores in China, the stuff was pretty much like anywhere else in the world, a bit uninspiring but of normal quality.


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## yoho oy (12 Jan 2022)

Well the guy is active, his video is recent, so anyone can ask any questions and perhaps he can make a follow up video. The chap is avid cycler and has plenty other cycling videos. In other video on his channel he talks about reason why he DID NOT buy a brompton- unavailability and price. Price argument is kinda absurd at this point, because when one counts everything and even including time lost it is not really that much of a difference. There were cheaper Litepros on China pirate amazon , I wonder why he did not buy there. I could pay like up to 1/2 of the price for a clone, but to pay for a clone 80-90% is a bit absurd... Also many places offer financing for Brompton, and that is how I was able to buy one.

Speaking about availability part... Yes, that one was a really big issue. There was a time when Brompton bikes vanished from everywhere and even manufacturer had a hard time to fulfil the orders and that was for UK market. I can imagine what was going on internationally. I feel the pain... 

In any case now we have someone who will be able to give a long term review. See it as some sort of sacrifice, a stunt for youtube followers, viewers.


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