# Tubeless ...



## ozboz (30 Apr 2016)

Maxxis Minnions , tubeless ,are they ok ? , ive never had tubeless tyres on a bike , are there any major drawbacks ?


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

None..
run them around 20...24 psi..front and a couple of psi more at the back..
you may need to adjust pressures to suit your weight but after a bit of trial and error you will find the sweet spot.
you may have some fun and games sealing them ,inflating first time..but you wont regret doing this..
enjoy


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## ozboz (30 Apr 2016)

meta lon said:


> None..
> run them around 20...24 psi..front and a couple of psi more at the back..
> you may need to adjust pressures to suit your weight but after a bit of trial and error you will find the sweet spot.
> you may have some fun and games sealing them ,inflating first time..but you wont regret doing this..
> enjoy



Sealing them, never thought of that , is it the same sort of process as a car tyre , some stuff pinted onto the rim ?


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

You need sealant..this is the best..but others work well too..
you need tubeless valves ..and unless your rims are tubeless ready you may need stans rim strips with the built in valve..

ill find some How to vids for you to watch

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stan-s-No...231237?hash=item2a62347445:g:mzEAAOSwPc9W0BiF


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## Nigel-YZ1 (30 Apr 2016)

Just embarking on this myself. Have got a Stans Notubes standard kit but told I need only valves, tape and fluid if my rims are welded. So may be sending it back.

Only thing worrying me is low pressures being too squishy on tarmac sections.
Am running 40psi at the moment.
Have come from an old school MTB so still playing with setup.


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

2 lots of info here..its not as hard as it may seem..

http://www.notubes.com/detailed_kit_instruction.aspx



View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MMyyEnGNCK4


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Just embarking on this myself. Have got a Stans Notubes standard kit but told I need only valves, tape and fluid if my rims are welded. So may be sending it back.
> 
> Only thing worrying me is low pressures being too squishy on tarmac sections.
> Am running 40psi at the moment.
> Have come from an old school MTB so still playing with setup.




the main reason for tubeless is to run low pressure..
reason for this is you wont get pinch flats like you do with a tube.
the low pressure allows the tyre to deform over roots and rocks so you get a lot more feel and grip.
its quite a revalation ...
big volume tyres like continental trail kings ..hans damph minions etc are where you get the most amaizing results..the deflection you have or get with 40psi is not something you will ever want again after a day on low 20's psi trail tyres..
But if you do lots of tarmac? It may be a waste of funds..


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Apr 2016)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Just embarking on this myself. Have got a Stans Notubes standard kit but told I need only valves, tape and fluid if my rims are welded. So may be sending it back.
> 
> Only thing worrying me is low pressures being too squishy on tarmac sections.
> Am running 40psi at the moment.
> Have come from an old school MTB so still playing with setup.


Don't be too quick in sending that kit back. A welded rim is not an airproof rim. Every spoke hole is a leak. Just abut all rims are welded nowadays.
You don't need the kit if your rim is a UST-certified rim and there are very, very few of those. UST is a Mavic invention and a standard, if you wish, for certifying that a rim is tubeless without the need for tape and sealant. For a rim to be tubless or UST-certified, it needs some very special engineering that drives the cost up significantly. Firstly, the spokes have to screw into the rim itself. The spoke screw socket has to be welded to the outside of a seamless rim etc etc. This makes the rim, spokes and hub proprietary and expensive.

Tubeless conversion kits are the way to go in my view. They are cost-effective and still leave you with a standard components that any bike shop can fit and repair.

Fitting the kit is not easy though. Expect lots of trial and error and don't attempt it if you don't have a compressor or some other source of bulk cheap air/gas. You could inflate it with CO2 first time if you don't have a compressor but then you can't put the sealant in in the first inflation since the sealant is not compatible with CO2.

I suggest lots of prior research.

Other than installation problems, tubeless is fantastic. For serious MTBers there is no other option.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (30 Apr 2016)

meta lon said:


> the main reason for tubeless is to run low pressure..
> reason for this is you wont get pinch flats like you do with a tube.
> the low pressure allows the tyre to deform over roots and rocks so you get a lot more feel and grip.
> its quite a revalation ...
> ...



Thanks for the insight 
My current favourite loop is 28 miles with maybe 2 miles on tarmac.
I came to tubeless mainly for puncture protection after running gunk tubes for years, but on some rougher sections I'd love to be rid of deflection.
The new bike is a hell of a lot faster than the old Scott and I've had a few 'moments'.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (30 Apr 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Don't be too quick in sending that kit back. A welded rim is not an airproof rim. Every spoke hole is a leak. Just abut all rims are welded nowadays.
> You don't need the kit if your rim is a UST-certified rim and there are very, very few of those. UST is a Mavic invention and a standard, if you wish, for certifying that a rim is tubeless without the need for tape and sealant. For a rim to be tubless or UST-certified, it needs some very special engineering that drives the cost up significantly. Firstly, the spokes have to screw into the rim itself. The spoke screw socket has to be welded to the outside of a seamless rim etc etc. This makes the rim, spokes and hub proprietary and expensive.
> 
> Tubeless conversion kits are the way to go in my view. They are cost-effective and still leave you with a standard components that any bike shop can fit and repair.
> ...



I'm on WTB i23 TCS rims. Tubeless compatible it says but probably not the full monty.
The tyres are Vittorria Barzo folders. Not certified tubeless but Evans mechanic said to try them tubeless anyway.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (30 Apr 2016)

ozboz said:


> Maxxis Minnions , tubeless ,are they ok ? , ive never had tubeless tyres on a bike , are there any major drawbacks ?



Sorry fella, I seem to have hijacked your thread a bit!


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Apr 2016)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> I'm on WTB i23 TCS rims. Tubeless compatible it says but probably not the full monty.
> The tyres are Vittorria Barzo folders. Not certified tubeless but Evans mechanic said to try them tubeless anyway.


I know the WTBs well. Nice rims but as you say, not the full monty. The full monty is always some proprietary wheel, you can never buy just the rim itself other than for one Mavic rim I know of. The WTBs will convert nicely. I don't know those tyres at all. The trick with tubeless tyre is to look for a tyre with a thick sidewall and thick juicy beads. The jucy-er the bead, the better the seal. You have to squeeze a couple of different beads before you will grasp the concept of juicy. Super lightweight tyres rarely convert nicely and always leak air. By definition a tubeless tyre will be thick. Have a look at a UST-certified tyre to get an idea of just how much rubber there must be on the tyre before it seals properly.

It is a bit flippant for the mechanic to suggest you try them anyway. If you dont' have experience with these things you can make so many mistakes that still having the added burden of an unknown tyre on top of that, makes the experience frustrating.


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Apr 2016)

ozboz said:


> Maxxis Minnions , tubeless ,are they ok ? , ive never had tubeless tyres on a bike , are there any major drawbacks ?


Yes, there are several drawback.

1) If the setup is not fully UST you can expect to lose pressure from the tyres and you have to keep on topping it up even if you don't use the bike all the time. That's because once the pressure is lost, the seal is compromised at the bead and re-inflating essentially becomes a re-installation.
2) Tubeless installation is messy and ideally requires a compressor. You need a good whack of quickly-dumped air to make the initial seating. I've seen some people make themselves an air reservoir from fire extinguisher canisters fitted with valve attachments. It works nicely but requires a trip to a compressor each time you empty it.
3) The two types of sealants - latex and non-latex all have their benefits and drawbacks.
4) Most sealants are not compatible with CO2 inflation.
5) Sealant, especially latex sealant has a limited lifespan, particularly in summer.
6) If the sealant/assembly fails in the field you have a hard time recovering from that. If you want to fit a tube in the field it is extremely messy and you first have to clean the tyre on the inside from any thorns still protruding in there but which the sealant took care of. Sometimes the tyre on the inside looks like an inverted hedgehog and is obviously not tube-compatible in that state.
7) At very low pressures the tyre can burp and lose even more pressure. A burp in a hard turn equates to a fall.
8) The tubeless valves are expensive and unreliable. They also block with the sealant and getting a type with a removable and replaceable core is important.
9) The Stan's tape is problematic. It is difficult to install and must be stretched into place. This can only be done effectively on a sturdy wheel truing stand like a Park or such. You can work around it but then you need more hands.
10) The tape lifts with age and the sealant creeps inside, eventually leaking out.
11) The sealant, once it has leaked into the rim cavity, pops out the spoke holes and makes a glorious mess.
12) Some sealant corrodes the rim to the point where it can no longer be sealed. It eats right through the anodizing and then quickly attacks the aluminium.

Those are the only drawbacks I can think of at the moment.


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## Pale Rider (30 Apr 2016)

I have a couple of tubeless mountain biking mates who would endorse the posts by @meta lon and @Yellow Saddle.

Seems to me it comes down to weighing up the riding benefits against the extra fettling.

Another mate gave up on tubeless, loved the ride but got fed up with topping up sealant, pressure loss, replacing valves/tape etc.

The last straw for him was a puncture the sealant didn't fix - messy business, sealant squirted all over the bike and him.

Tubeless would also make changing tyres complicated, a nuisance if you like to use different tyres in different seasons.


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

Have to dissagree @Yellow Saddle ..
my tubeless wheels..ust hold the air for months..
i change the sealant every yr or when changing tyres..
i use a track pump..no probs..
no corosion..
no punctures..

Just good grip and no worrying about flats..
poor instalation may cause many probs and the wrong tyres..


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Apr 2016)

meta lon said:


> Have to dissagree @Yellow Saddle ..
> my tubeless wheels..ust hold the air for months..
> i change the sealant every yr or when changing tyres..
> i use a track pump..no probs..
> ...



I am not sure where we disagree.
I explained that non-UST tyres don't hold air well if they dont' have enough rubber in the sidewalls. UST tyres by definition have enough rubber.
Sealant has a limited lifespan. It is type and temperature dependent. I didn't go into detail but acknowledge it.
A track pump can inflate a UST tyre from new. Agreed. But won't do that on most non-UST tyres. Keep in mind that the UST logo costs money and supports the French, so some companies kick back against getting certified but still have good juicy tyres which will pass USB certification if enough money is paid to the Champaign drinkers.
No corrosion - yet. Dependent on sealant and CO2. The latter turns some sealants into acid. Ammonia-based sealants are alkaline, which is a problem for anodizing.
No punctures. Technically plenty of punctures but no leaks.


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## ozboz (30 Apr 2016)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Sorry fella, I seem to have hijacked your thread a bit!


No problem ! Lots of info for all now !


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## ozboz (30 Apr 2016)

On the strenghth of all the info , Inferno 27 rims , are they ok with t less tyres ?


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## Jody (30 Apr 2016)

My experience has been good with tubeless. Stan's tape was a doddle to install, valves have never clogged up, sealant hasn't let me down yet in the 30+ punctures I've had and they only lose about 1psi per month. The only downside was initially getting the tyres to seat as they were very baggy, which was probably down to non UST rims. But use of a large compressor and a bit of manipulation sorted that. I've topped up the sealant once as I couldn't hear it sloshing around. I let the tyre down, removed the core, put another 80ml in and pumped back up. Its one of the best things to happen in MTB if you ask me.

As for high pressures on the road, I tend to find they roll better tubeless at 22psi then tubed at a higher psi. Don't know why or if it's just my perception.


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## Levo-Lon (30 Apr 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I am not sure where we disagree.
> I explained that non-UST tyres don't hold air well if they dont' have enough rubber in the sidewalls. UST tyres by definition have enough rubber.
> Sealant has a limited lifespan. It is type and temperature dependent. I didn't go into detail but acknowledge it.
> A track pump can inflate a UST tyre from new. Agreed. But won't do that on most non-UST tyres. Keep in mind that the UST logo costs money and supports the French, so some companies kick back against getting certified but still have good juicy tyres which will pass USB certification if enough money is paid to the Champaign drinkers.
> ...



no prob...i was just going by my findings..
your in the business and see all the things we read about


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## Yellow Saddle (30 Apr 2016)

Jody said:


> As for high pressures on the road, I tend to find they roll better tubeless at 22psi then tubed at a higher psi. Don't know why or if it's just my perception.


Some truth, mostly imagination and here's why.
If you have exactly the same tyre, one with just air in it and the other with a tube and air in it, the one without the tube will have a lower rolling resistance. This is because both the tyre and tube is "seen" by the road as one and it compresses them both. Compression losses in rubber increase with thickness and a coupe of other factors. Therefore the tubeless tyre will have less rolling resistance because it is in fact a thicker, more flexible tyre.
However, how much less is questionable and down to the thickness of the tube. If you had some blanket-thick mother of a puncture proof tube in there, a lot of difference - observable, I'd say. If it was a normal tube, I doubt you'll feel it since the increased resistance is in the order of grams. The slightest wind would have more drag than a thin tube.
Then there's the factor of decreased pressure in the tubeless. That in itself increase rolling resistance but as you all know, increases traction.
So, you have decreased RR from no tube but increased RR from less pressure. Can you feel it? Only a double-blind test with hundreds of test subjects can answer that question. I'll bet like those guys who put their money on that low-probability soccer team did.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (1 May 2016)

For the moment I'm going to leave well alone and swap to gunk tubes if I have any punctures. I can still play with pressures but know not to go too low in case of pinch flats.
I've done well with gunk tubes for 15 years and not had a full blown ride stopper.

I don't have the budget for new tyres to make things work on top of the Stans kit price, so I'll think about it again when the tyres are due for replacing.


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## screenman (1 May 2016)

For those of you who have a puncture repair kit in the car as many cars do nowadays, do not forget the sealant has a use by date. Fine for bike tyres though.


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## bjellys (15 Apr 2017)

I have changed all my mountain bikes to tubeless but I didn't like the Stan's rim tape as it wasn't very flexible so I now use 25 mm Gorilla tape and I also had a problem with one of the tubeless valves trying to pull through so I just cut the valve out of an old inner tube and fitted that. All my tyres are normal tyres not tubeless so I did have a patch of Stan's seeping through the side wall on one tyre but it soon sealed. I am out every day and no punctures yet but now I have said it no doubt I will get one.
I am off on a 60k off road endurance event which goes out onto Dartmoor tomorrow so I will report later on my tubeless experience.

Here's a link to the Gorilla tape method
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/Tech-Tuesday-Gorilla-Tape-Tubeless-Conversion.html


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## Drago (15 Apr 2017)

I don't know what some lads do to their bikes. I'm 265lbs and have never, ever suffered pinch flats. I vary my pressures between about 25 and 45, depending on the bike, particular tyres and terrain.

Ran my Trance tubeless for a while, but when I got a small cut in one tyre I tubed it and never bothered going back again.


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## albion (16 Apr 2017)

Good for several hundred miles per week road leisure riding then?.


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## Motozulu (1 May 2017)

The ignorance on this thread, is by turn entertaining and disturbing.


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