# Bus driver question



## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

I've just had a stupid remark from a bus driver to one of my videos. 

nethalus wrote: If bicycles are banned from the road there won't be any more problems.

Wise words indeed!!?

Anyway I clicked on her username and noticed that she films herself driving the bus. Would First buses not frown on this behaviour. I know that recently some train drivers got in to trouble for filming their rides at work.

http://uk.youtube.com/user/nethalus

I have a right mind to forward this to First to see if they value her opinion on the rights of cyclists and that they are happy for her to film her work.

What do you think?


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## alecstilleyedye (24 Aug 2007)

send it!


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

Can anyone work out what bus depot she works from from her videos? If I decide to write I want to write to the correct part of First.

The more I think about her attitude towards cyclists the more I think I really have to say something.

What do you think?


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## PrettyboyTim (24 Aug 2007)

I think it'd be a bit much to jeapordise her job just for the sake of a stupid remark on YouTube.

If you want to make a response, just reply to one of her posts with 'Do your First Bus employers know you're videoing at work?' If you're feeling evil, add 'Shall I tell them?'


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## Maz (24 Aug 2007)

Is it worth it? No. What do you hope to achieve? Get her sacked? 
Ignore it - I bet most folk leave numpty comments on there when they're half p1ssed, anyway.


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

I had thought about doing that Tim. However, I am slightly concerned about her attitude towards cyclists. Does this affect how she drives when she is near them? Who knows?

Also this shows that First is not training it's drivers properly, i.e. they are supposed to be taught to respect other road users etc. This is obviously not being stressed enough and needs to be addressed.

As you say I don't want to jeapordise anyone else's livelihood and that is part of the reason I wanted to ask the forums opinion. However, if I bring this type of attitude to the attention of First I know from experience that this can change training practices etc and can make a difference. 

I would be surprised if this lady would loose her job over this, I think a warning would suffice, but maybe I can use this incident to highlight an issue.


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

Maz, would she be sacked though? If she would only be reprimanded then I would be willing to say something.

I also think a lot could be achieved. Due to another incident that occurred in Glasgow with a First bus I contacted First and complained. I managed to convince them to take part in the Give Cyclists Room campaign, (which they are apparently printing stickers up as we speak to put on buses in Glasgow). 

Once this Glasgow campaign becomes public (with some local press coverage) I want to try and expand it, for example to First elsewhere. This would give me a reason to contact another branch of First and to put pressure on them to take part. If I did this I would certainly stress that I did not want the lady in question to be sacked, just informed of the error in her attitude.

It's a tricky one I know.


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## spen666 (24 Aug 2007)

magnatom said:


> Maz, would she be sacked though? If she would only be reprimanded then I would be willing to say something.
> 
> ....
> 
> It's a tricky one I know.




I see no problem in complaining about this person to her employers.

Her attitude is inappropriate for her job. The fact she is filming when driving is no doubt a breach of her employment conditions.

If she gets sacked, then it is the fault of her actions, not your.


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## domtyler (24 Aug 2007)

Seems a bit spiteful to grass to her employers. Can't you handle the situation yourself? Why not try to reason with her using considered argument rather than get her into trouble at work and breed even more resentment?


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## Elmer Fudd (24 Aug 2007)

Nah, go for it, if she gets sacked it's her own fault.
If that's the sort of attitude she's got, I dread to think my Mom could be sat on her bus.


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

It would seem there is a definite divide. At the moment I am erring on the side of reporting her, although I worry that she would get sacked and thats not what I want. Although as a few have said it would be her fault and not mine. 

Any other thoughts appreciated!


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## Chuffy (24 Aug 2007)

I'm not sure how definite a conclusion you could draw from a comment on a video. Perhaps an e-mail to her (assuming that you can do this, I'm not familiar with YouTube) along the lines of 'I hope that comment isn't reflected in the way you drive' might be more appropriate.


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## Road Fiddler (24 Aug 2007)

She cant be sacked if this is the first complaint she would only be given a warning. For her to have vids named Grumpy bus driver is not good for a company to be associated with. 

It might also give her a kick in the right direction to change her attitude. She might not be a model employee with lots of complaints already those vids dont show someone that respects her position in the company.


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

Thanks for the replies everyone. I decided, as Chuffy suggested, to send a message to her. I have just asked her to clarify her comments on cyclists. 
Depending on how (or if) she responds will depend on how I deal with this.

I suppose it is only right I let her clarify her position.

Of course she will probably not reply...


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## goo_mason (24 Aug 2007)

Keep us posted, Magnatom !

I would have been tempted to drop her in it, but emailing her's the right thing to do. If she gets really arsey about your comment, THEN consider reporting her.

Will (or did) you mention your role in the First campaign to her ? That might give her a bit of a wake-up if she thinks you're pally with her employer


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

goo_mason said:


> Keep us posted, Magnatom !
> 
> I would have been tempted to drop her in it, but emailing her's the right thing to do. If she gets really arsey about your comment, THEN consider reporting her.
> 
> Will (or did) you mention your role in the First campaign to her ? That might give her a bit of a wake-up if she thinks you're pally with her employer




Will do. I just asked her to clarify her comment and left it at that. I didn't mention the fact she works for First or that I have contact with them.

I also want to avoid using the campaign in that way. It isn't public yet and First are dragging their heels over it (although I am assured that it will be imminent ) . I don't want to give First any excuses to pull out of it!


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## spen666 (24 Aug 2007)

domtyler said:


> Seems a bit spiteful to grass to her employers. Can't you handle the situation yourself? Why not try to reason with her using considered argument rather than get her into trouble at work and breed even more resentment?




She is the one who brought her employers into this by
a) filming whilst working
 allowing her employers to be/naming them


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## spen666 (24 Aug 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> She cant be sacked if this is the first complaint she would only be given a warning.


 Nonsense- she can be sacked, the company could properly class her behaviour as gross misconduct for one of several reasons.

first incident or not, you can be sacked for gross misconduct


> For her to have vids named Grumpy bus driver is not good for a company to be associated with.
> 
> It might also give her a kick in the right direction to change her attitude. She might not be a model employee with lots of complaints already those vids dont show someone that respects her position in the company.


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## domd1979 (24 Aug 2007)

Reading through the posts, and just having had a quick look at the You Tube link, I can see both sides of the argument. But, I think trying to wind up First about her filming some bus driving is a little OTT. Its obvious that the camera is resting behind the dash, so its not affecting her driving of the bus. Yes, technically she probably shouldn't have a camera there, but if I'd be pretty surprised if an operator deemed that a sacking offence.

I agree her comments are out of order but, she could easily be just setting out to be provocative. There's nothing in the videos she posts to suggest her driving is particularly aggressive. So there isn't any proof of anything. On the video of her doing the walk round check, she checks the bus' CCTV which appears to have an external camera - so with that running she'd have to be pretty dopey to indulge in any dangerous driving.

I think bunging a comment back on You Tube in the first instance is probably the thing to do, but rather suspect you won't get an intelligent or reasoned response!! I really don't think its worth pursuing First about this particular individual - time might be better spent pressing the head office corporate social responsibility dudes to roll out the "give cyclists room" campaign to all their bus subsidiaries.


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## Road Fiddler (24 Aug 2007)

Posting vids on the net is not covered by gross misconduct.

Gross misconduct covers these issues only 
Physical violence 
Alcohol or drug abuse 
Deliberate damage to property 
Serious infringement of health and safety regulations 
Theft and/or fraud 
Harassment / discrimination 
Negligence which causes serious consequences for your company as a result of the error

She could well be sacked for bringing the company into disrepute but many companies are have never considered this in the policie planning.

But, then she is representing her company by posting those vids so maybe she should be dismissed, they will find out eventually.


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## spen666 (24 Aug 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> Posting vids on the net is not covered by gross misconduct.
> 
> Gross misconduct covers these issues only
> Physical violence
> ...



So you have now done a 180 degree turn about from the first line of this post to the last line?:?::?:


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## spen666 (24 Aug 2007)

oh and there is NO definitive list of what is gross misconduct


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## Tetedelacourse (24 Aug 2007)

I wouldn't stick her in for what she's said (non-professionally) on a website. I think you took a reasonable course of action Magna.


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## magnatom (24 Aug 2007)

Tetedelacourse said:


> I wouldn't stick her in for what she's said (non-professionally) on a website. I think you took a reasonable course of action Magna.



Yes I think it is best to let her explain. I really hope she does as I am sure the reply would be very 'interesting'!


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## Road Fiddler (24 Aug 2007)

spen666 said:


> So you have now done a 180 degree turn about from the first line of this post to the last line?:?::?:






> She cant be sacked if this is the first complaint she would only be given a warning. For her to have vids named Grumpy bus driver is not good for a company to be associated with.
> 
> It might also give her a kick in the right direction to change her attitude. She might not be a model employee with lots of complaints already those vids dont show someone that respects her position in the company.



umm NO



> oh and there is NO definitive list of what is gross misconduct



If you believe your company policy then it may look that way but company policies are not worth the paper they are written on if this was tested at tribunal providing you have not broken one of the above rules the gross misconduct dismissal would be overturned. 

I am not saying she would not get sacked it would be unlikely she would be sacked and if she was it would be for bringing the company into disrepute and not gross conduct.

I was trying to say to Magna what the company might do about this from there perspective, she has not attacked cyclists other than mutered a couple of things under her breath and let be honest we dont see what the cyclist did she might have every reason to mutter away. I am looking it from the employers point of view. If this lady came to me about a complaint about her managers behavior i would happily investigate it and if found she had a case i go to the directors and with the problem and if it was not taken seriously i would encourage and guide her through the process of taking it to the DTI arbitration. In the same breath if First came to me with a compliant such as this i would investigate it and would advise them to take legal advise before deciding what to do with her. Most companies would do this and talk to the employee and ask that the vids be removed with no further action taken.

After reading later posts i saw that Magna has contacts with the company and is trying to influence them into taking positive action re cyclists with this in mind and if i had know this after his first post i would have agreed that approaching the company may be a negative thing in the long run with respect to the campaign.


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## col (24 Aug 2007)

Just been reading this thread,and as far as filming herself,i dont think there is anything in the rules against it.At first i thought she was holding the cam while driving,instant dismissal for that,but after watching the vids i couldnt really see her point?unless she has done or said something to publically bring the company into disripute,im afraid i cant see much hapenning about it,other than her comments being as pleasant as she is looking.Is it just me, or does she look like mad mary of the phones for you adds?


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## spen666 (25 Aug 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> umm NO
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Road fiddler- you are contradicting yourself left right and centre. It is hard to0 know what you are saying

you say in your earlier post


> Posting vids on the net is not covered by gross misconduct.


then you say



> She could well be sacked for bringing the company into disrepute ....
> 
> But, then she is representing her company by posting those vids so maybe she should be dismissed



The two statements appear to be contradictory as she would only be sacked for gross misconduct



You later go on to say


> I am not saying she would not get sacked it would be unlikely she would be sacked and if she was it would be for bringing the company into disrepute and not gross conduct




I presume firstly that you mean gross misconduct not gross conduct.

She will only be sacked for gross misconduct and bringing the company into disrepute is or can be a form of gross misconduct

You are confusing yourself.

DTI arbitration? where do you produce this from. There is no mention of it so far and unless there is something specific in her contract, this is a completely irrelevant remark


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## spen666 (25 Aug 2007)

col said:


> Just been reading this thread,and as far as filming herself,i dont think there is anything in the rules against it....unless she has done or said something to publically bring the company into disripute,...



It depends what is in her employment contract re conduct. I suspect her behaviour as a bus driver does bring the company into dispute, but that is not for me to judge


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## magnatom (25 Aug 2007)

She has replied to my thread. Have a look here


I quote '_Yeah and cyclists never run red lights, try and knock down pedestrians, zoom out of side junctions inches in front of a bus doing 30mph, deliberately overtake when other traffic has been curteous and held back for the bus to pull out of a stop, and they never over taken standing traffic on the wrong side of narrow roads when a fooking great bus is cooming the other way and has no where to go. Sorry cyclists are a bloody menace, had too many problems with 'em_

Mmmm.


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## magnatom (25 Aug 2007)

and I also got this personal reply

_I've been done wrong to by cyclists, both as a driver and a pedestrian. One nearly sent me flying when I was crossing on a pelican crossing and the greenman was up, so it should have been safe to cross, but the cyclist didn't stop at the red light and decided to plough through the crowd of people crossing. He got called a few choice words I can tell you!
Also during rush hour it's hard for buses to get out from stops on busy roads. Some kindly car drivers stopped and flashed me out, just as I was pulling out and thanking them an ignorant cyclist swerved between the car that had stopped and round my bus, forcing me to have to suddenly stop. Either he was blind and couldn't see my indicators or that the cars had stopped to let me out, or more likely he was just bloody ignorant. I could got on and on with many other examples, but I ain't got time at the mo, off to workies, and I wouldn't want to bore you like.
_

Does anyone have a link to stats for injuries/deaths from cyclists compared to cars, buses etc. I think I just need to point out that this ladies perception of danger and risk are very heavily distrorted.

Also Tetdelacourse if you are reading this, this is a prime example of how RLJ's lead to a poor perception of cyclists in general.


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## domd1979 (25 Aug 2007)

http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221412/221549/227755/roadcasualtiesgreatbritain2005a

Table 23a

419 bus/cycle accidents in urban areas in 2005 compared to 11506 car/cycle accidents. Obviously that's skewed by the composition of traffic. But, the accident rate of buses generally is lower than that of cars.

She obviously has something of a dim view of cyclists to put it mildly, but then she has commented to you on You Tube she leaves plenty of room when overtaking cyclists, so her perception of risk behind the wheel might not be as bad as you think.





magnatom said:


> and I also got this personal reply
> 
> _I've been done wrong to by cyclists, both as a driver and a pedestrian. One nearly sent me flying when I was crossing on a pelican crossing and the greenman was up, so it should have been safe to cross, but the cyclist didn't stop at the red light and decided to plough through the crowd of people crossing. He got called a few choice words I can tell you!
> Also during rush hour it's hard for buses to get out from stops on busy roads. Some kindly car drivers stopped and flashed me out, just as I was pulling out and thanking them an ignorant cyclist swerved between the car that had stopped and round my bus, forcing me to have to suddenly stop. Either he was blind and couldn't see my indicators or that the cars had stopped to let me out, or more likely he was just bloody ignorant. I could got on and on with many other examples, but I ain't got time at the mo, off to workies, and I wouldn't want to bore you like.
> ...


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## classic33 (25 Aug 2007)

Try contacting METRO, in Leeds. Also FirstLeeds & FirstBradford.
Working from her other posts, "blast up the M621" & "Ride on a Scania" puts her in West Yorkshire.


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## domd1979 (25 Aug 2007)

The PTE doesn't run buses and are pretty irrelevant to the scenario.

I remain unconvinced that anything would be achieved by contacting First about a particular individual where there is sod all evidence that their driving is actually at fault. There might be some evidence of their attitude, but that's about it.




classic33 said:


> Try contacting METRO, in Leeds. Also FirstLeeds & FirstBradford.
> Working from her other posts, "blast up the M621" & "Ride on a Scania" puts her in West Yorkshire.


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## sheddy (25 Aug 2007)

i'm just curious as to why she would be filming
I wonder if she wants her own footage to produce as evidence in case the Bus Co lets her down in the event of an RTC or assault by a MOP enquiry


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## bonj2 (26 Aug 2007)

i'm confused as to what the point of this video is.
Can anyone point out at what point anything interesting happens, if indeed it does at all?


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## magnatom (26 Aug 2007)

I think I am happy to let this go now. The following has been posted on Youtube:

*Me* : Can I ask you; in this video who is in the wrong, me or the bus driver?
Do you not receive training about respect for other road users? 

*Netalus* : It's rather hard to have respect for those who don't respect you, wouldn't you agree. I'm sure you're a good curteous cylist, like I've said I've been treated bad by too many cyclists in the past, and have grown to dislike them. That don't mean I treat 'em bad, I give them a wide berth when overtaking, or hang back until it's safe or if pulling in to a stop. I think cyclists should have a highway code test and a road competence test for their's and everyone else's safety. 

*Me* : Did the driver in this video show me respect? (Please answer this!) I could write some of your posts word for word replacing bus with cyclist and vice versa. How many car drivers do you know who have read the highway code recently? Over 11,000 cyclists were recently involved in the consultation for the new highway code. Did you know it was coming out?

*Netalus* : In my opinion the bus driver would have been better off slowing down and waiting for you to pass the stop layby before pulling in (which is what I would have done), it looks to me like he's almost overtaking you while pulling into the stop. I don't know what this bus driver was doing, he may have been watching something else and not paying attention who knows. Perhaps you'd pissed him off earlier and he was having a bit of road rage!! 

*Me* : Correct. This is what he should have done, and I am glad you agree that on this occasion the cyclist (me) was not at fault. No previous interaction, he just got grumpy because he misjudged my speed from the lights.
As lsmike says please don't generalise. I would never ask for any other road user to be banned. 
If all road users respect each other THEN there won't be any more problems. 



I think she is a little misguided. Probably typical of the general perception of cyclists. How do we change this perception though?


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## Tetedelacourse (27 Aug 2007)

magnatom said:


> Also Tetdelacourse if you are reading this, this is a prime example of how RLJ's lead to a poor perception of cyclists in general.



Oh I'm reading mofo, you better believe it pal

Message received and understood.  I accepted that RLJing could be perceived as antagonistic and disrespectful. 

I still don't think though that this is the _generally_ held attitude towards cyclists by the motoring public*. I think if I truly believed that, I wouldn't take to the roads as it would be too dangerous.

*It certainly sounds possible in and around Londinium going by posts here.


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## magnatom (27 Aug 2007)

bonj said:


> i'm confused as to what the point of this video is.
> Can anyone point out at what point anything interesting happens, if indeed it does at all?




Which video are you referring to?


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## bonj2 (28 Aug 2007)

the one that was previously on nethalus's youtube link, which was just of the inside of an empty bus and not much going on at all, but it seems to have been replaced now by one of a cat rolling around in a garden..., but again - the same applies.


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## vernon (28 Aug 2007)

> Look at her profile. She's a bus spotter.
> 
> Says it all I think.



Before you deride other folk for their hobbies and interests, remember the lowly place that cyclist occupy in some folks' value scales 

Pot, kettle black and all that......


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## Jacomus-rides-Gen (28 Aug 2007)

I think that despite her prickly replies magnatom, that your words will have had an effect. I bet she can't come across a well behaved cyclist without thinking of you now (however creepy that may sound), and I bet those cyclists get treated better than they might otherwise be. 

The numptys probably will win in the end, because memories are short, and nobody pays attention to good cycling because it doesn't do anyone any harm.


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## Arch (29 Aug 2007)

> Oh, I know. I've spent plenty of time in the past standing on a platform, book and biro in hand...



Well, that's just daft, if you're bus spotting, buses don't stop at platforms. You need to take up trainspotting...

Unless your hobby was acutally biro collecting?


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## domd1979 (29 Aug 2007)

I reckon he was waiting for one of these......:

http://www.old-dalby.com/images/R3_railbus.jpg






Arch said:


> Well, that's just daft, if you're bus spotting, buses don't stop at platforms. You need to take up trainspotting...
> 
> Unless your hobby was acutally biro collecting?


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## Arch (30 Aug 2007)

domd1979 said:


> I reckon he was waiting for one of these......:
> 
> http://www.old-dalby.com/images/R3_railbus.jpg




D'oh! How could I forget the railbus...!


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## nethalus (21 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I've just had a stupid remark from a bus driver to one of my videos.
> 
> nethalus wrote: If bicycles are banned from the road there won't be any more problems.
> 
> ...



Cor blimey 5 pages about little old me and over a tongue in cheek remark on YouTube. Thought you lot might be interested on what the opposition thought, ie the bus drivers when I posted a link to various clips on YouTube on a bus drivers forum. I might add that these coments are NOT my own opinion. The only alterations I have made is to asterisk the swear words so as not to cause offence
A bus driver from Aberdeen said this:
Who the hell thought "lets put in bus lanes in to help everyone get where they want quickly".. then ... "lets allow bikes to use them, that will make everyone late again, hee,hee" ... then ... "dont let motorbikes use them (they woulldnt hold you up at all)" 

One from Glasgow said this:
CYCLISTS = B*ST*RDS





Especially when they ride on the pavement.

A bus driver from Edinburgh said this:
cyclists. them f****rs are a danger to society.

Another bus driver from Glasgow said this:
Make cyclists sit a test then pay tax and insurance like everyone else who uses the road. Then maybe they would observe the highway code instead of just running amok (and slowing us down). 

A bus driver from Sussex said this:
There seems to be a lot of videos like this from cyclists on YouTube. 
Isn't it convenient how they always seem to be filming when things like this happen




Sometimes I wonder if they don't go out looking for trouble so they've got something to put up there and entertain themselves with. 
Bloody menace the lot of them.

And another bus driver from Edinburgh wrote this:
f**k cyclists they are a mennace .they should be off the road altogether .dont know what a red light is for.half of them do not have any road sence at all .we should get little stickers to put on the bus for every one of these f****rs we hit





Interestingly in a poll conducted on this forum Cyclists were voted the most hated road users, yes they even beat taxis (my own pet hate) and white van men which suprised me greatly.


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## spindrift (21 Sep 2007)

nethalus, you seem a very bitter person. Lighten up, cyclists are people just the same as anyone else, you are not doing your blood pressure any good carrying this rage around with you.

_ Interestingly in a poll conducted on this forum Cyclists were voted the most hated road users, yes they even beat taxis (my own pet hate) and white van men which suprised me greatly._

What forum? Where?


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## Cycling Naturalist (21 Sep 2007)

nethalus said:


> Cor blimey 5 pages about little old me and over a tongue in cheek remark on YouTube. Thought you lot might be interested on what the opposition thought, ie the bus drivers when I posted a link to various clips on YouTube on a bus drivers forum. I might add that these coments are NOT my own opinion. The only alterations I have made is to asterisk the swear words so as not to cause offence
> A bus driver from Aberdeen said this:
> Who the hell thought "lets put in bus lanes in to help everyone get where they want quickly".. then ... "lets allow bikes to use them, that will make everyone late again, hee,hee" ... then ... "dont let motorbikes use them (they woulldnt hold you up at all)"
> 
> ...



I was nearly killed yesterday by a school bus driver who decided to ignore the fact that I had right of way because I was on a roundabout, and pulled out in front of me. Despite this, I don't have the bitter and twisted attitude towards bus drivers that they seem to have towards cyclists.


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

Anyone remember that RAC study that found 1 in 5 bus drivers jump red lights in London, and that's measured from after 3 seconds after the light turned red?

Now just remind me, who is the greater danger to society?


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

Oh, and welcome to the forum here nethalus!!


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

Hi Nethalus,

It wasn't too difficult to find the forum in question and I have left the following message:

_Hi Guys,

I believe Daisy Dart aka nethalus will recognise my login. Yes you guessed it I am the cyclist that nethalus was originally referring to. She has taken to copying some of your comments onto a cycling form, obviously to cause trouble. I think I need to explain a few things.

I do not pavement cycle, I do not red light jump, I try my best at all times to act courteously towards other road users and pedestrians and I do not ride about with earphones on. I do wear a helmet, however, a lot of recent research has found that wearing a helmet, contrary to what many may thing, could actually increase your risk of head injury in an accident. This can occur because the helmet increases the area of your head, thus increases the risk of contact. Most importantly it increases the risk of you suffering a rotational injury, which anyone who works in a neurosurgical department knows (I do) is the worst type of injury. Therefore, people who don't wear a helmet are not as reckless as you think (also cycle helmets are not designed for high speed impacts).

adspackman,

It is not convenient that I wear my camera. I wear it all the time I cycle. I just post what happens to me, as it happens. I wear it because it is an educational tool, I can show others what happens to me and we all learn from it, and I can use footage as evidence when something does happen. How am I a menace. How many people get killed by cyclists each year and compare that to buses and cars etc, go on look it up.

Willypuller,

I agree that the chap on the bike should not pull up the inside of a bus that is dangerous. He also should not lean on the bus. However, opening the door on him intentionally so that he fell into the coach represents assault and is a criminal offense.


Lazarus,

We have every right to use the road. We do not need to use cyclepaths (as was proved recently in a recent court case - look up Daniel Cadden on google). Cyclepaths are not always very well designed and in some circumstances are downright dangerous (Look here http://www.warringtoncyclecampaign.co.uk/facility-of-the-month). They are often designed for slow cyclists and their families, not for cyclists who want to move at speed (30mph for example). Also they often do not go where we want to get to, so why should we have to use them. A large number of cyclists don't actually want them, and we have every right to be on the road (in fact more). In answer to your insult to cyclists, do you really think we are all '****ing pure bred tossers' whatever that means?

Sikpuppy,

You joke about hitting cyclists. That is way out of order. What ever happened to respect for all road users. And yes that applies to and from cyclists to. Admitting you used to play a game to see how close and how fast you could pass cyclists is criminal and I have a mind to report you to the police for comments like that. You also admit revving your engine intentionally to blow exhaust fumes at a cyclist. Again I think you will find that that is assault.



So if anyone else would care to make any comments or ask any questions feel free. However, on reading your posts, I am not surprised that some cyclists have cause to hate bus drivers. I myself have nothing against anyone. However, when I see criminal or bad driving or when someone puts my life in danger, I will react to that and take an appropriate course of action.

I look forward to your replies._

Should be interesting to see what they say.


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

Can I just ask others from cyclechat not to go looking for this forum and to post angry messages. That would just lower us to their level. I don't want a forum war as they can get nasty. Obviously I can't stop anyone, but I think it is best if I 'discuss' this with them seeing as I was the one who inadvertently started it.

I seem to have been in the wars lately!!


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## Cycling Naturalist (21 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Can I just ask others from cyclechat not to go looking for this forum and to post angry messages. That would just lower us to their level. I don't want a forum war as they can get nasty. Obviously I can't stop anyone, but I think it is best if I 'discuss' this with them seeing as I was the one who inadvertently started it.
> 
> I seem to have been in the wars lately!!



What is seriously worrying is the number of these bus drivers who seem to have bad attitude problems. Are they really fit to be holding PSV licences?


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## zimzum42 (21 Sep 2007)

There are plenty of people with bad attitudes in all walks of life, should they be banned from having kids maybe, or having a job?


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

I think that forum must be the exception rather than the rule. I have far far more positive interactions with bus drivers, compared with the very few poor ones like in my video.

Just the other week I had a bus driver make a mistake, start to pull out on me from a junction, and then stop and wave a sorry. I waved back no worries, and we went on our ways all happy and friendly. I make mistakes too, and this was an understandable one given the road situation. I get a lot of thank yous from bus drivers after waiting to let them pull out of bus stops, and it cheers up my day no end when there's so much good tolerance and friendliness around.


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## Tetedelacourse (21 Sep 2007)

Reading Col's (I think) description of the job of bus driver over in Soapbox, I'm not surprised some of them are disgruntled or in a permanent state of fury.


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Can I just ask others from cyclechat not to go looking for this forum and to post angry messages. That would just lower us to their level. I don't want a forum war as they can get nasty. Obviously I can't stop anyone, but I think it is best if I 'discuss' this with them seeing as I was the one who inadvertently started it.
> 
> I seem to have been in the wars lately!!



I wouldn't dream of going looking for that place. Doesn't sound like I'd be welcome there.

Edit: Okay, I'd look at it, I'd definitely not join it or post there.


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I think that forum must be the exception rather than the rule. I have far far more positive interactions with bus drivers, compared with the very few poor ones like in my video.



I think it depends a lot on where you are. Here in Cambridge I'd say that we have certain endemic problems; narrow roads, lots of cyclists, bus drivers get shirty. It took years of pressure to get the main bus company here to really take the issue seriously, it takes continued constant pressure to re-educate those bus drivers who drive aggressively.


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I think that forum must be the exception rather than the rule. I have far far more positive interactions with bus drivers, compared with the very few poor ones like in my video.
> 
> Just the other week I had a bus driver make a mistake, start to pull out on me from a junction, and then stop and wave a sorry. I waved back no worries, and we went on our ways all happy and friendly. I make mistakes too, and this was an understandable one given the road situation. I get a lot of thank yous from bus drivers after waiting to let them pull out of bus stops, and it cheers up my day no end when there's so much good tolerance and friendliness around.




Absolutely, and I have said as much in another post to their forum. However, it does worry me that this website is Glasgow based and I hope that these attitudes are not representative of Glasgow bus drivers.

Oh one last thing, nethalus, I am a little annoyed that you have forwarded what was a private message to you onto this and the bus drivers forum. To redress the balance, let me also post the next reply I sent you that clarified a few things:

_Nethalus,

I am in no way threatening you! I have no intention of reporting you! However, I know how public forums work and I know that other people read these comments, so I was warning you that's all! I have heard recently of train drivers getting into trouble for doing the same thing and I felt it was worth warning you.

You do need to be careful. You are filming yourself at work (which I believe is against some companies policies) and thus by making comments about other road users you could and by making an extreme comment, such as, 'ban all cyclists', bring First buses into disrepute (as you are very obviously an employee).

At the very beginning before 'conversing' with you, I had thought about reporting you, due to the comments that you had made. Banning a whole group because of personally held prejudice is extreme. However after hearing what you had to say, I felt you were just misguided and not agressive towards cyclists and so I have no intention of reporting you.

I felt it would have been dishonest of me not to mention my connection with First to you as I felt it was relevant. I did this privately and did not intend this as a threat. In fact I was pleased when you said that you give cyclists plenty room etc and I wanted to pass on some friendly advice.

Incidents with buses are never 'minor things' when you are a cyclist. The video you replied to was a worrying incident for me, with a however many tonne hunk of metal bearing down on me. This was not minor, and in fact First agreed on this occasion as well and acted accordingly.

Magnatom_


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

(a couple of points that haven't been addressed already)



nethalus said:


> Another bus driver from Glasgow said this:
> Make cyclists sit a test then pay tax and insurance like everyone else who uses the road. Then maybe they would observe the highway code instead of just running amok (and slowing us down).



I am insured. And I pay the same amount of tax as other vehicles that are in the lowest band for emissions, i.e. none. As I emit less carbon than those other vehicles, by rights I should have a rebate.



> Interestingly in a poll conducted on this forum Cyclists were voted the most hated road users, yes they even beat taxis (my own pet hate) and white van men which suprised me greatly.



With respect, thats a poll with only 23 votes, so it ain't really that interesting. And the comments you've posted exposes the membership as, how shall we put it... Just a tad objectionable?

You have to share the road with cyclists. That should require an element of respect; I don't treat bus drivers badly, I expect the same amount of respect in return.


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## domtyler (21 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I think that forum must be the exception rather than the rule. I have far far more positive interactions with bus drivers, compared with the very few poor ones like in my video.
> 
> Just the other week I had a bus driver make a mistake, start to pull out on me from a junction, and then stop and wave a sorry. I waved back no worries, and we went on our ways all happy and friendly. I make mistakes too, and this was an understandable one given the road situation. I get a lot of thank yous from bus drivers after waiting to let them pull out of bus stops, and it cheers up my day no end when there's so much good tolerance and friendliness around.



I think you'd better start thinking about changing your username to fluffymikey!


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

You found it then Cab . I didn't bother with the road tax/insurance thing as I am sick to death of it. But yes if someone pushes me I will certainly mention the points you made. 

Your absolutely right, it is all about respect. I really wish someone would run road safety adverts with respect as the main theme. With respect all the other conflicts, issues etc cease to exist. I think respect sits at the very route of a lot of problems on the roads.


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

I'll bet those bus drivers don't realise that many of us are insured with full third party insurance via CTC or LCC. Since high-earning males are heavily over-represented in cycling, we actually pay more income and council tax on average than bus drivers and their passengers do. That means we contribute more towards the roads as well, quite apart from the VED and fuel duty most of also pay when using our cars.


Perhaps we ought to be asking for a refund when we're on the bike and not clogging up the roads in our cars? Yes, that's right, all drivers ought to be grateful for every cyclist they see out there, because that's one less motor vehicle in the queue ahead of you, and thus you get far less traffic jams because of us.

It goes further still, in that studies have found cyclists actually improve traffic flow for motor vehicles because they break the rhythm of accelerate and brake that causes queues to build up.


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> I'll bet those bus drivers don't realise that many of us are insured with full third party insurance via CTC or LCC. Since high-earning males are heavily over-represented in cycling, we actually pay more income and council tax on average than bus drivers and their passengers do. That means we contribute more towards the roads as well, quite apart from the VED and fuel duty most of also pay when using our cars.
> 
> 
> Perhaps we ought to be asking for a refund when we're on the bike and not clogging up the roads in our cars? Yes, that's right, all drivers ought to be grateful for every cyclist they see out there, because that's one less motor vehicle in the queue ahead of you, and thus you get far less traffic jams because of us.
> ...



I may quote you depending on how the conversation goes!


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

I'd agree with their point that there are a lot of tossers about though. Some ride bikes, some drive cars, and a few even drive buses. LMAO!!!


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## domtyler (21 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> It goes further still, in that studies have found cyclists actually improve traffic flow for motor vehicles because they break the rhythm of accelerate and brake that causes queues to build up.



That sounds interesting, have you got any more information on these studies Mikey?


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

Here's what you need:

"Ride a bike? You must be rich".


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## BentMikey (21 Sep 2007)

domtyler said:


> That sounds interesting, have you got any more information on these studies Mikey?



I'd have to google it, and I'm afraid I'm off for an afternoon nap now.


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## col (21 Sep 2007)

I suppose being a bus driver,i should comment.There are a number of fellow drivers who hate with a vengeance cyclists,or any vehicle that goes slower than they do.Re my thread on the job.Its all about trying to keep a timetable.Id like it to be known,im not one of them,i do all i can to give room and time for slower vehicles,not just cyclists.But i have to agree,there are people who shouldnt be doing the job,they make it dangerous for other said users.Ill still try and keep time by driving as safely as i can,but if held up ,will not loose it like some can and do.I can understand the reaction of some,because iv been in their situations,but it doesnt excuse or give reason for it.Like has been mentioned,its about respect to other users,and may i add,courtesy too.


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> You found it then Cab



Wasn't hard. I'm surprised you posted there, it would seem to be rather infertile ground.


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> Wasn't hard. I'm surprised you posted there, it would seem to be rather infertile ground.




If I can get even one of these drivers to think again about his attitude it will be worth it. I also like taking part in discussions where I know I am right


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## Cab (21 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> If I can get even one of these drivers to think again about his attitude it will be worth it. I also like taking part in discussions where I know I am right



In that case tell them about the evidence that shows using cycle paths doesn't improve safety, that they're not constructed to be appropriate for travelling more than 18mph, and that whether or not a cyclist chooses to use a cycle lane, passing too closely or infringing on their road space is unacceptable (i.e. 'bus driver' does not equate to 'has a right to enforce your views using many tons of metal').


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## magnatom (21 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> In that case tell them about the evidence that shows using cycle paths doesn't improve safety, that they're not constructed to be appropriate for travelling more than 18mph, and that whether or not a cyclist chooses to use a cycle lane, passing too closely or infringing on their road space is unacceptable (i.e. 'bus driver' does not equate to 'has a right to enforce your views using many tons of metal').




I've replied already but I think I've covered the essence of what you've wrote.


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## Tynan (21 Sep 2007)

I've noticed lots of very considerate driving from buses of late after the nadir of all those French ones a decade or more ago

I frequently overtaken a slow bus to find that they're patiently following a cyclist crawling along the bus lane


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## Jacomus-rides-Gen (22 Sep 2007)

I've been following magnatoms progress over on that bus forum, and have to say magna, I feel like I've been repeatedly smashing my head against a birck wall, I don't know what you must feel like!!!

I find the opinions set out by those drivers very worrying, some of the aggressive, very dangerous attitudes. This forum seems to be very hostile and populated with some seriously dangerous individuals. I took the time earlier to cruise through a couple of other bus forums too. This one seems to be the exception, where the really militant bus drivers collect. I didn't see the kind of attitude displayed on the other forums, in fact I didn't see any comments regarding cyclists at all. 

I don't know if it just that I am coming from a cyclists perspective, from a forum which is keen on a retrospective look at our behaviour.

It is also amusing the number of "rad tax" comments that crop up!!!!!!!


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## magnatom (22 Sep 2007)

Jacomus-rides-Gen said:


> I've been following magnatoms progress over on that bus forum, and have to say magna, I feel like I've been repeatedly smashing my head against a birck wall, I don't know what you must feel like!!!
> 
> I find the opinions set out by those drivers very worrying, some of the aggressive, very dangerous attitudes. This forum seems to be very hostile and populated with some seriously dangerous individuals. I took the time earlier to cruise through a couple of other bus forums too. This one seems to be the exception, where the really militant bus drivers collect. I didn't see the kind of attitude displayed on the other forums, in fact I didn't see any comments regarding cyclists at all.
> 
> ...




Yes I've given up on them. I will be taking part in a campaign with First Bus over the next few weeks. I've to take part in a wee photo shoot with the Glasgow MD. Maybe I can have a wee chat with him then....


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## spindrift (22 Sep 2007)

Where's their
forum?


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## gambatte (22 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Yes I've given up on them. I will be taking part in a campaign with First Bus over the next few weeks. I've to take part in a wee photo shoot with the Glasgow MD. Maybe I can have a wee chat with him then....



Just had a look over there, really fills you with inspiration when you see the forum name! I can understand why you've given up on them.
I don't seem to get any probs with the drivers in Sheffield, they always hold back and pass wide. Some of the views expressed over there makes me think they shouldn't have a licence for any vehicle, never mind a bus. Wonder if their bosses know who they are?


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

Sad fact im afraid,there are always going to be a minority(hopefully)of these morons.There are some decent bus drivers out there,but we do tend to get generalised,


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## freakhatz (22 Sep 2007)

Interesting thread.. I blame privatisation: IMO buses should not be run to make a profit but to provide a service to the community. Putting the drivers under pressure for profit reasons is clearly counter-productive.


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

freakhatz said:


> Interesting thread.. I blame privatisation: IMO buses should not be run to make a profit but to provide a service to the community. Putting the drivers under pressure for profit reasons is clearly counter-productive.





You hit the nail on the head,This is why the timetables havnt been changed in fifteen years,with stagecoach anyway.The cutbacks to make more profit are making the job dangerous in some cases.


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## spindrift (22 Sep 2007)

Jeeeesus, that is one scary forum, you basically have people boasting about inflicting GBH!


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

What is the forum?id love to take a peek.


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## gambatte (22 Sep 2007)

google 'daisy dirt' and 'forum'


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

gambatte said:


> google 'daisy dirt' and 'forum'




Thanks


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

gambatte said:


> google 'daisy dirt' and 'forum'




I couldnt find a bus forum,just for games i think?


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## col (22 Sep 2007)

Can someone pm the site to me please,if its to be kept quiet?


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## RANDOM (22 Sep 2007)

Have read the forum and i really don't think it's that bad,maybe you should all dry your eye's have noticed that your not excately friendly towards them either and are mouthing of about them just as much


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## spindrift (22 Sep 2007)

_are mouthing of about them just as much_

Maybe you could show us where anyone on this site boasts of having deliberately attacked another road user, random?

Or called an entire section of other roads users cxxts?

Or denigrated an entire demographic?

The bloodbus forum is full of angry, impotent sociopaths, the evidence is there before your eyes.

In what way is it a sign of reasonableness when a poster on that site exhorts a new poster to visit him and leave in a fxxxxxg coffin?


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## spindrift (22 Sep 2007)

Nearly forgot Randon, why do you think homophobia is "not that bad":

_other ways and means?go for it try to cut me up from now on any **** on two wheels is fair game




see if your wee gay helmet saves you then_


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## RANDOM (22 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _are mouthing of about them just as much_
> 
> Maybe you could show us where anyone on this site boasts of having deliberately attacked another road user, random?
> 
> ...


Have noticed that both parties have not got a good word to say about each other,who needs to swear it looks to me you don't like them either also i don't believe they would dare to hurt any one i believe it's against the law.It looks to me that you have all taken them a bit to seriously and may have to chill a bit,if their were all that bad in the real world i would really doubt they would be free to roam about.


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## spindrift (22 Sep 2007)

_Have noticed that both parties have not got a good word to say about each other_

Could you answer my questions please?


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## RANDOM (22 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> Nearly forgot Randon, why do you think homophobia is "not that bad":
> 
> _other ways and means?go for it try to cut me up from now on any **** on two wheels is fair game
> 
> ...


All i said was the site was not that bad in no way did i say that homophobia is ''not that bad''.As for your question do you really think that these guy's would go out off thier way to kill or maim some one cos i don't.So you haven't swore or threatend to kill some one but the impression i get is you don't like them you have all taken them a little to seriously.


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## Steve Austin (22 Sep 2007)

any chance of trying to have some logic to your discussions guys?

and less of the swearing spindrift


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## spindrift (22 Sep 2007)

_As for your question do you really think that these guy's would go out off thier way to kill or maim some one cos i don't._


Yep.


The clue is that one of them admitted it. You haven't actually read the forum have you, muppet?


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## RANDOM (22 Sep 2007)

Yes i have read the forum and know one has killed any one and i doubt you have read it yourself.Stick and stones


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## RANDOM (22 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _As for your question do you really think that these guy's would go out off thier way to kill or maim some one cos i don't._
> 
> 
> Yep.
> ...



You see in the real world if some one goes out of their way to kill some one they go to prison not go to their work the next day after admitting it on a forum


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## RANDOM (22 Sep 2007)

Maybe you could enlighten me to the one that admitted it


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## magnatom (22 Sep 2007)

Steve Austin said:


> any chance of trying to have some logic to your discussions guys?
> 
> and less of the swearing spindrift



 Even I have started to lose interest!


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## RPM (23 Sep 2007)

she's probably suffered enough already, what with being fat, ugly AND having to drive a bus for a job


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## RANDOM (23 Sep 2007)

Shocking that is not nice at all to speak of some one like that.


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## Cab (24 Sep 2007)

Mag, that forum is inhabited by bad tempered people mouthing off.

So that we don't become a ghastly parallel of that, can I suggest that we just let this discussion here die, and let the discussion over there die too?

Sooner or later, the employers of those bus drivers will find out about the sinister threats they're posting; we don't need to tell them, we don't even need to pay attention to it, they're on self destruct all on their own.


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## magnatom (24 Sep 2007)

Cab,

I think this thread is dying a death anyway. It was straying off topic and some trolls have appeared. (Please nethalus ignore RPM's comments. They are not representative of the people on this board).

I have a few more comments that I feel I need to make on the bus board, but after that I will leave them to it. I am meeting with First buses shortly to get their Give Cyclists Room campaign going. They are going to put stickers in all of the bus cabs. Will it make a difference, I don't know. If we keep the drip feeding going, who knows maybe one day....


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## Cab (24 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I am meeting with First buses shortly...



Then you must surely be tempted to print a few pages from discussions on that site out and take them with you?


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## magnatom (24 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> Then you must surely be tempted to print a few pages from discussions on that site out and take them with you?


No comment......


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## RPM (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> Shocking that is not nice at all to speak of some one like that.



really?

sorry, I don't feel the need to use winky smilies or whatever.

just a jest.

apologies to all fat and ugly people who were offended by my comments ("not representative of this board")


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> Mag, that forum is inhabited by bad tempered people mouthing off.
> 
> So that we don't become a ghastly parallel of that, can I suggest that we just let this discussion here die, and let the discussion over there die too?
> 
> Sooner or later, the employers of those bus drivers will find out about the sinister threats they're posting; we don't need to tell them, we don't even need to pay attention to it, they're on self destruct all on their own.



Wouldn't worry about that as the bus company already no about the page,i think all there doing is blowing of some steam nothing wrong with that.I think some members on this forum need to chill a bit as nobody is going to go to their job and seriously hurt some one.In the really world they probably are a decent lot that some members have taken the wrong way.


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## Cab (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> Wouldn't worry about that as the bus company already no about the page,i think all there doing is blowing of some steam nothing wrong with that.I think some members on this forum need to chill a bit as nobody is going to go to their job and seriously hurt some one.In the really world they probably are a decent lot that some members have taken the wrong way.



Bottom line; a professional driver threatening to hurt another road user using their vehicle to do so has crossed the line. That ain't letting off steam any more, its a chilling threat of violence. And if members of _that_ forum can't understand that, they need to do a lot more than chill.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

RPM said:


> really?
> 
> sorry, I don't feel the need to use winky smilies or whatever.
> 
> ...



Glad to hear it especially as you might not be great looking model yourself.


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## magnatom (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> Wouldn't worry about that as the bus company already no about the page,i think all there doing is blowing of some steam nothing wrong with that.I think some members on this forum need to chill a bit as nobody is going to go to their job and seriously hurt some one.In the really world they probably are a decent lot that some members have taken the wrong way.



A direct quote from the site.

_got a cyclist once i asked him to move as i was going round a corner and he was on the line in the middle of the two lanes all i got was the finger .so went for it and knocked him off his bike with the overhang on my coach Laughing he didnt even come up to me to say i hit him the dik didnt hear anything afterthat _

There are other examples.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> Bottom line; a professional driver threatening to hurt another road user using their vehicle to do so has crossed the line. That ain't letting off steam any more, its a chilling threat of violence. And if members of _that_ forum can't understand that, they need to do a lot more than chill.


Again your taken their comments all to seriously,i for one do not believe no matter what they say on that forum that they will go out and hurt some one after all it is against the law and i do not believe a professional driver really does want to hurt some one.


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## spindrift (24 Sep 2007)

_Shocking that is not nice at all to speak of some one like that._


_*Interesting, Randon thinks homophobia and GBH is "nothing wrong" but call a bus driver fat and he bursts into tears.*_


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## Cab (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> Again your taken their comments all to seriously,i for one do not believe no matter what they say on that forum that they will go out and hurt some one after all it is against the law and i do not believe a professional driver really does want to hurt some one.



So someone posting saying that they intentionally knocked someone off their bike is just mouthing off? 

Frankly, thats either a sick fantasy or a sick reality. Either way, its sick. And however you look at it, it is completely unprofessional.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> A direct quote from the site.
> 
> _got a cyclist once i asked him to move as i was going round a corner and he was on the line in the middle of the two lanes all i got was the finger .so went for it and knocked him off his bike with the overhang on my coach Laughing he didnt even come up to me to say i hit him the dik didnt hear anything afterthat _
> 
> There are other examples.



So it must be true then just because some one type that,we weren't their so for all we know it's just a lot of rubbish


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## Cab (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> So it must be true then just because some one type that,we weren't their so for all we know it's just a lot of rubbish



Heavens forbid that we judge someone based on what they say they did


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _Shocking that is not nice at all to speak of some one like that._
> 
> 
> _*Interesting, Randon thinks homophobia and GBH is "nothing wrong" but call a bus driver fat and he bursts into tears.*_



Tut tut spindrift making up stories are you as i said before all i said is that site is ok i never said that homophobia and now we have added gbh in i have never said that they were ok.And by reading your post your the one how needs to dry your eye's not me.Any how sticks and stones.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

> Would you agree that a professional driver shouldn't be typing this kind of rubbish on a public forum then?


Yes i would agree with that


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> Heavens forbid that we judge someone based on what they say they did



Well we shouldn't or should we.


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## spindrift (24 Sep 2007)

Today, 15:37 #*126* RANDOM vbmenu_register("postmenu_71523", true); 


i have never said that they were ok.

Today, 15:18 #*115* RANDOM vbmenu_register("postmenu_71474", true); 


i think all there doing is blowing of some steam nothing wrong with that.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> Today, 15:37 #*126* RANDOM vbmenu_register("postmenu_71523", true);
> 
> 
> i have never said that they were ok.
> ...



As i said i never said that homophobia or gbh was ok


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

> But you think that there's nothing wrong with it.


Thats right their is more to that site than cyclist it has been mentioned more because magnatom arrival.


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## Cab (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> Well we shouldn't or should we.



Yes, we should. 

Again, bottom line, a professional driver is boasting that he used his company vehicle to commit an assault in a public forum where the company may be identifiable. If that got back to his employer he would be in danger of losing his job. In fact, if that got back to his employer then arguably the employer has a duty to report that to the police.

Do you consider that drivers boast acceptable, yes or no?


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## spindrift (24 Sep 2007)

_As i said i never said that homophobia or gbh was ok_

Strictly speaking you are correct. What you actually said was that there was nothing wrong with either. The law disagrees, and my opinion now is that although I can take your semi-literacy, your mental capacity indicates that you are too stupid to argue with.

I hope you get crushed to death by a bus, but remember, I'm just letting off steam like your bus driver chums you defend.


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## magnatom (24 Sep 2007)

> RANDOM
> 
> Are you one of the drivers? You know a fair bit about the site, and are pretty defensive of it.




I was just thinking that. 

RANDOM, it appears that you are trying to provoke, but notice no-one has been as agresive or rude towards you, as they were on that site. Wouldn't you agree.

(this thread is now moving faster than I can read!!)


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## col (24 Sep 2007)

To be fair,i think most of what is said and done on this forum,is in jest.but i also think that there are bad examples in both areas.If bus drivers used all cyclists examples,ie the chav type or other,im sure there could be a bull bait,on how cyclists are bad or dangerous.Im sure we have all coined the phrase"Ill kill em" at some point,it doesnt mean we mean it,more a way of venting our feelings at the time,it doesnt mean we are killers.It is very worrying when a driver purposely tries to squeeze or push a cyclist,i dare say ,there will be the odd one who might,these are the ones that should not be in the job,obviously.But on the other hand there are cyclists,that do dangerouse things,and try to cause problems on purpose to.Now i think im safe in saying that there are non of these type on here,maybe the odd one,who knows.But a similar thing will be on other forums,most are normal safe driving people,but the odd one will be there somewhere.Some of the things that have been said by bus drivers,may be in bad taste,in a cyclists opinion,but it was still, i feel,in jest,and not to be taken literally.Now i believe Random to be a decent person,going on his threads,but if he made a joke about something,i would either find it humerous,or not,i wouldnt start thinking that if it not amusing to me,that he was some dangerous person.I also think we generalise too much,both ways.We can all quote certain times when someone has done something to us,but that doesnt mean everyone in that particular area is the same,it would mean that we have been unlucky in coming across the minority in that instance.Or even just a mistake was made.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

spindrift said:


> _As i said i never said that homophobia or gbh was ok_
> 
> Strictly speaking you are correct. What you actually said was that there was nothing wrong with either. The law disagrees, and my opinion now is that although I can take your semi-literacy, your mental capacity indicates that you are too stupid to argue with.
> 
> I hope you get crushed to death by a bus, but remember, I'm just letting off steam like your bus driver chums you defend.



Now spindrift i would never wish to hurt any one who cycle on our streets as a driver i'm always careful when passing cyclist as i could not live with myself if i hurt anyone.Myself personally would not dare to ride on the roads as their are very dangerous and i have to admit it takes a brave b*****d to do so.As for my semi-literacy and mental capacity may be it's just an excuse to get out of arguing with me because i will not bow down to your pitiful name calling.Oh and yes safe cycling to you all.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I was just thinking that.
> 
> RANDOM, it appears that you are trying to provoke, but notice no-one has been as agresive or rude towards you, as they were on that site. Wouldn't you agree.
> 
> (this thread is now moving faster than I can read!!)



Yes i do agree but no i'm not trying to provoke any one.


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## RANDOM (24 Sep 2007)

col said:


> To be fair,i think most of what is said and done on this forum,is in jest.but i also think that there are bad examples in both areas.If bus drivers used all cyclists examples,ie the chav type or other,im sure there could be a bull bait,on how cyclists are bad or dangerous.Im sure we have all coined the phrase"Ill kill em" at some point,it doesnt mean we mean it,more a way of venting our feelings at the time,it doesnt mean we are killers.It is very worrying when a driver purposely tries to squeeze or push a cyclist,i dare say ,there will be the odd one who might,these are the ones that should not be in the job,obviously.But on the other hand there are cyclists,that do dangerouse things,and try to cause problems on purpose to.Now i think im safe in saying that there are non of these type on here,maybe the odd one,who knows.But a similar thing will be on other forums,most are normal safe driving people,but the odd one will be there somewhere.Some of the things that have been said by bus drivers,may be in bad taste,in a cyclists opinion,but it was still, i feel,in jest,and not to be taken literally.Now i believe Random to be a decent person,going on his threads,but if he made a joke about something,i would either find it humerous,or not,i wouldnt start thinking that if it not amusing to me,that he was some dangerous person.I also think we generalise too much,both ways.We can all quote certain times when someone has done something to us,but that doesnt mean everyone in that particular area is the same,it would mean that we have been unlucky in coming across the minority in that instance.Or even just a mistake was made.



Thanks couldn't have put it a better way myself,also would never wish to hurt any one one the road


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## col (24 Sep 2007)

RANDOM said:


> Thanks couldn't have put it a better way myself,also would never wish to hurt any one one the road





Most of us think this way,the worry of actually knocking some one off their bike is terrifying.I can understand the reactions on here,well from most anywaybecause it can and does get dangerous on the road,aspecailly when something happens that neednt,just because an idiot lost their temper.But again,i think we are all guilty of generalising too much.


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## spindrift (24 Sep 2007)

_Myself personally would not dare to ride on the roads as their are very dangerous and i have to admit it takes a brave b*****d to do so_

Not really, no more danherous than walking,and the BMI reckon the health *benefits* outweigh the dangers by a factor of 8-1.

Try cycling, it'll make you happy, which is after all what we all want.


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## nethalus (25 Sep 2007)

I must admit I did find some of the reactions of other bus drivers to Magnatom's appearence on the bus driver's forum disapointing. A few resorted to personal insults. While some did put forward intelligent comments and suggestions others went on wild meaningless tangents. I suppose I could be accused of being an appologist but here was one of my replies:

I don't think much has been said to improve Magnatom's, or other cyclists, attitude towards bus drivers. While we may find frustrating getting stuck behind a cyclist they, whether we like it or not, do have a right to use the public highway. 
Here's a scenario that frequently happens. You are driving your bus along a single carriageway road that has a 40mph speed limit. Now ahead is a cyclist and on the opposite side of the road some parked cars which are causing a couple of on coming vehicles to move over towards the centre of the road. Also ahead is a bus stop, not an obviousl hazard to a non bus driver. 
Now the best way to deal with this situation is to ease off the speed (and check them mirrors), allow the on coming vehicles to get clear of their obstructions. Before attempting to overtake the cyclist a quick glance of the passenger view mirror and the CCTV monitor is always good to ensure that no passengers are getting up and about to ring the bell for that bus stop, making it pointless in overtaking the cyclist. Checking both wing mirrors to ensure it's safe to over take, then give the cyclist a wide berth while passing, obviously giving them a quick check in the mirror while passing to make sure they haven't swerved under your wheels! Once you are passed the cyclist another glance in the mirrors to make sure you are well clear of the cyclist and then pull back in to the normal driving road position. That way everyone's happy, the cyclist has not been intimidated by a bloody great bus and the bus driver hasn't had them writing down the bus number and phoning in to complain that a bus nearly killed them!! 
Hope, if nowt else, this serves to reassure Magnatom and any of his friends that joined like.


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## spindrift (25 Sep 2007)

Why not post that on blood bus nethalus, you're pushing at an open door here.


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## Cab (25 Sep 2007)

Entirely reasonable, Nethalus.

If I were you, I'd avoid that bus site. From my reading of threads that mention cyclists, it isn't a site _for_ reasonable people like you.


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## magnatom (25 Sep 2007)

Nethalus,

Yes thanks for that. As I have probably said a thousand times before, I have (and feel free to quote this) nothing but respect for other road users, and that includes bus drivers. As a cyclist I need to have respect as that is what keeps me safe. However, what I hate are cyclists, car drivers, bus drivers and pedestrians, who blatantly put the lives of others at risk on the roads, be it through ignorance or malice. 

The vast majority of my interactions with buses are good. I often find that buses will hang back and if they overtake do so in a safe and controlled manor. When this happens I usually try and thank the driver by giving them with a wave, not because I have to, but because I think it is nice to reward good driving and it encourages more of it in the future.

However, what has really annoyed me about my experience on the bus forum, was the utter contempt that the vast majority of the users displayed towards me. You directed me over there (so I suppose I was invited) and yet when I tried to clarify a few points about some of the posts on their site I was flamed.

Random (who I suspect is wolverine?) has come over here and yes we don't agree with all of what he has said, but he has been treated by the majority of users here (if not all) with respect. Yes we may have a _boring_ forum as someone on the bus forum said, but at least we generally respect other forum members (even the village idiots!)

Why was I flamed, I was flamed because I pointed out the illegality of some of the things that a couple of the members of that forum had boasted about doing, i.e *seeing how close you could pass cyclists*, *intentionally opening the door of the bus so that the cyclist would fall in*,* and using the bus as a weapon to knock a cyclist off*.

No-one on the forum appears to have the guts to stand up to people boasting about said actions, and that is the biggest difference between the forums. Here is someone boasted about intentionally knocking over pedestrians, for example, a lot of people would condemn that. 

They really need to be careful about what they boast about as this is a public forum where they are representing a company (First Buses). I am sure that First would take a very very dim view of what is written there. 

Please feel free to quote this message over on the bus forum if you wish. Personally I'm not posting there any more, as there is no point.


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## magnatom (25 Sep 2007)

Correction, I assume that Random is in fact Driver.


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## col (25 Sep 2007)

Nethalus must be a bus driver,as this is what we,well most of us, do.But when Random came on here,it seemed that all our dislikes were directed at him as a bus driver,albeit in a more polite way,in most cases,about what happens to us as cyclists on the road.As i cycle too,i can understand why,but not to the extent of taking our bad experiences out on him.This seemed to be presicely what happened on the other forum with you Mag,except they were not as polite about it.Thats why i was trying to get across the generalisation that we make,they will have put you in with all the chav types who are just dangerous on the roads,as we it seemed,put Random in the same corner as the bad driver.As you found Mag,he found himself in a similar situation here.Instead of bombarding him with accusational questions,we should have been discussing the problems in the third party.I was only trying to bring it round to this,i failed miserably and ended up on the recieving end too.


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## Tetedelacourse (25 Sep 2007)

All generalisations are flawed.


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## Cab (25 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Nethalus must be a bus driver,as this is what we,well most of us, do.But when Random came on here,it seemed that all our dislikes were directed at him as a bus driver,albeit in a more polite way,in most cases,about what happens to us as cyclists on the road.



Hardly surprising when he came on here and immediately started groaning about cyclist behaviour.


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## Elmer Fudd (25 Sep 2007)

col said:


> .......I was only trying to bring it round to this,i failed miserably and ended up on the recieving end too.


Ah, but we know you're a good fella col


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## col (25 Sep 2007)

Elmer Fudd said:


> Ah, but we know you're a good fella col




Cheers EF,


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## col (25 Sep 2007)

Cab said:


> Hardly surprising when he came on here and immediately started groaning about cyclist behaviour.




Again,he will have wrongly generalised.As do most of us,we need to try and get away from this if we can.


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## Cab (25 Sep 2007)

col said:


> Again,he will have wrongly generalised.*As do most of us*,we need to try and get away from this if we can.




(emphasis added)

No, most of us don't. I don't generalise about bus drivers (like I've said here, they're just folks). I don't generalise about cyclists. I don't generalise about taxi drivers. I know that a proportion of every group of road users will break all sorts of laws, the exact proportion and the laws they break will vary according to group, location and time. And you know what? I don't see most other people here generalising either.

Honestly, what kind of reception should someone expect when they appear on a cycling forum and start generalising about cyclists. More to the point, anyone who is a member of an online community where boasting about bullying cyclists off the road is accepted as reasonable... Why on earth would we give them the benefit of the doubt? If people from there want respect here they need to absolutely dissociate themselves from statements made over there, otherwise I'll have none of this acceptance crap.


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## nethalus (25 Sep 2007)

Shame that we won't be hearing from you again Magnatom, I actually think you are very good at putting across your arguments.
Col I was a bus driver, but at them moment I'm not due to being on long term sick.
I suppose really I don't have much to say on cycling. I think the last time I rode a bicycle was in 2003. I have been thinking about getting a bike, because as someone so kindly pointed out on here I'm fat (they also added some other unpleasant remarks I shall not repeat!) Cycling might be one way of burning off some of them excess pounds I suppose.


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## Road Fiddler (25 Sep 2007)

Nethalus i have said some harsh things in this thread about you and was quite insistent Mags contacted your employer as i am sure they would have been interested in you making vids whilst you were driving a bus when your prime responsibility is for the safety of your passengers and other road users. You vids have highlighted for me a very worrying trend of bus drivers making vids whilst there concentration should be on the road and i am sure if an accident was to happen and it came to light a driver was making a personal vid that would be used against them even if it did not contribute to the accident in any way.

I hope it was not me that suggested you were fat and i am sorry to hear you are on long term sick. Cycling has many benefits and i am sure it would benefit you sickness by speeding your recovery, it is a know fact that exercise as well as improving once health, fitness it is also great for improving ones mental health. So cycling is beneficial for weight loss, other medical conditions, stress and depression. And, although it might seem like a struggle to begin with cycling becomes quite addictive and i am sure you would enjoy it as well as feel the benefits. It might be an idea to have a chat with your doctor just to make sure it would not effect your condition at all just to be on the safe side.

Lastly i would like to say well done for coming on here and having your say, i am sure you would be able to share you perspective with use to better understand some of the problems that a bus driver faces in there travels.

Can i ask you in your opinion which road user is the worst for the average road user and why. I hope the answer is not cyclists but if it is i am sure we are all adult enough to accept it and possibly it might help some of us to change our habits.


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## BentMikey (25 Sep 2007)

I don't actually see what is wrong with a driver running a video camera as Nethalus did. It's not a mobile phone, and it doesn't need to be distracting in any way.


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## Road Fiddler (25 Sep 2007)

I agree to a certain extent but if a bus driver was involved with a death or injury of someone the fact that they were making a vid would raise some questions and would be used as mitigating circumstances whether they are at fault or not. If the family of the victim was to find out they would be asking why.

Also an employer would probably not appreciate it.


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## nethalus (26 Sep 2007)

Road Fiddler said:


> I agree to a certain extent but if a bus driver was involved with a death or injury of someone the fact that they were making a vid would raise some questions and would be used as mitigating circumstances whether they are at fault or not. If the family of the victim was to find out they would be asking why.
> 
> Also an employer would probably not appreciate it.



When I did make them films I only touched the camera when I was stopped at bus stops or at the terminus. A lot of the time I just switched it on and let it run until either the batteries ran out or the card became full. The camera is usually placed near the ticket machine (where it can't be snatched) The only vids I've done where I am holding the camera are the ones where I'm not driving. These films I did are popular with bus enthusaists.
As for my least favourite road users I'd have to say Private Hire Minicabs. While not all are bad there seems to be a rotten core that let the rest of 'em down. Speeding, red light jumping, illegal U-turns, dangerous overtaking, non use of indicators when pulling out into traffic, pulling out dangerously in front of on coming vehicles at junctions, and wilfully admitting to smoking cannabis while driving!!
You'd never catch me in a mini cab!!


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

Nethalus,

I'd just like to add my best wishes. I hope you get better soon. Please stay here as I am sure your opinion on general road safety, and your opinion from a bus drivers point of view would be valuable.

I'm not posting there again as I have better things to do with my time (work, family, watching grass grow ). Sometimes you come across people that are just too stuck in their ways that no matter how much reasoned argument you use, they won't listen. (I am not generalising here, but from my experience the majority that replied to me on the bus forum were of this type).

Hey ho. As I said on the bus forum they will be hearing from me soon from another source, in fact they will have a wee reminder of me in each and every First Bus cab in Glasgow.....


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## BentMikey (26 Sep 2007)

I hope you stick around on here as well Nethalus!


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

Sorry, I couldn't help this. I had to post this reply on the bus forum here. It is just so inaccurate it's unbelievable! I'm not bothering to post there any more but if anyone else cares to answer this chap please feel free!!

_Cyclists like yourself have a huge chip on your shoulder, and you arent insured in any way, apart from your bike being insured for theft under house contents!(3rd party insurance is bollocks, as it covers **** all nowadays! Many big insurers are no longer doing 3rd party insurance) Cyclists should pay excise duty (say £10 per year) and should have to pass a test, as all other road users have to, and if you think you are being green, just think about the chinese sweatshop where most bikes are built....... China is now one of the worlds biggest polluters, and thats from industry! Also think about the cancer you will be giving yourself breathing in all the traffic fumes! You are pedalling hard, thus breathing faster & sucking in more & more carbon monoxide!!!!

On a note about paying tax, you are deluded. Income Tax does not go towards our roads system,and very little council tax goes towards roads. Income for roads comes from VED and Fuel Duty, so if you aint paying either of those, you shouldnt have the right to use the roads!_


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## gambatte (26 Sep 2007)

I’m actually tempted to go over there and ask if there is anyone from their own camp who would care to actually tell this guy how many counts he is wrong on.

Failing that ask if not doing so is just a case of ‘not feeding the trolls’


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## Ashtrayhead (26 Sep 2007)

To get back to the original question....why is there always an empty bottle that rolls around the top deck and then comes down the stairs on a sharp bend?


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## col (26 Sep 2007)

Ashtrayhead said:


> To get back to the original question....why is there always an empty bottle that rolls around the top deck and then comes down the stairs on a sharp bend?



They always seem to end up jamming the door too.


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

> It looks like someone has.



Yes, who is this mysterious 'Road User'.....?

(It isn't me before anyone asks!)


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

Ashtrayhead said:


> To get back to the original question....why is there always an empty bottle that rolls around the top deck and then comes down the stairs on a sharp bend?



Don't go getting all philisofical, physiological high brow on us


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## Cab (26 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Sorry, I couldn't help this. I had to post this reply on the bus forum here. It is just so inaccurate it's unbelievable! I'm not bothering to post there any more but if anyone else cares to answer this chap please feel free!!



I don't know what to say... Sometimes you encounter such staggering ignorance, its hard to know where to start correcting it.

Not fit to be let out on the roads that chap. Not because of his particular opinions, more just because of his stupidity.


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## Cab (26 Sep 2007)

A compilation of some of the finest moments from over there:



> listen to mr i,m so eco fukwit holier than thou .come to edinburgh on yer bike you maybe go back to where you come from in a coffin





> In Brighton there is a two way bus lane with a segregated cycle lane. the ****wits still cycle in the bus lane even though there is a perfectly safe cycle track right nearby. Laziness. Sheer laziness.





> Simple basic law's of the world. Whose gunna win in an argument? a bus load of glasgow's finest after a hard day of work or some cyclist with lycra on? Dosn't matter what legislation there is... or what rights you have.



Guys, these people are... How shall I put it... No, I don't have to say anything, those comments speak for themselves.

Just steer a wide berth around that place, don't post there, don't invite them onto other fora, don't talk to them. Those who are ill advised enough to consier themselves members aren't who we would want here; I wouldn't stand by and consider myself part of any online community in which that kind of behaviour is acceptable. 

They aren't representative of mainstream bus drivers, lets not credit them with any further responses. They're not worthy.


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## nethalus (26 Sep 2007)

gambatte said:


> I’m actually tempted to go over there and ask if there is anyone from their own camp who would care to actually tell this guy how many counts he is wrong on.
> 
> Failing that ask if not doing so is just a case of ‘not feeding the trolls’



Don't worry I'll kick his butt for you for starting it all up again. And I don't mean kick his butt in a metaphorical sense, I mean in a physical sense, as my foot is in easy reach of his butt. Or perhaps I might put that rolling pin I recently acquired to good use


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

nethalus said:


> Don't worry I'll kick his butt for you for starting it all up again. And I don't mean kick his butt in a metaphorical sense, I mean in a physical sense, as my foot is in easy reach of his butt. Or perhaps I might put that rolling pin I recently acquired to good use



Do you two live together then?


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## nethalus (26 Sep 2007)

Here's a peculiar thing I once saw. I was heading towards the slip road of a motorway in a bus when ahead of me I notice a man frantically pedaling on his bicycle. I'm thinking, shall I warn him that this road only leads to the motorway, where if a copper sees him he could get nicked? Trouble is I couldn't think of a way to trying to warn the man that he was on a motorway slip road. I tried a couple of peeps of the horn but he ignored me and carried on. He was right over to the right hand side of the road, which meant he'd be in the outside lane when the slip road went into two lanes. 
Fortunately for the cyclist this particular stretch of motorway has a 50mph speed limit (although we all know that speed limits are ignored by some motorists). I dread to think what would happen if it was a national speed limit stretch with vehicles traveling at 70mph+ and he's in the outside lane! 
Never found out what happened to the cyclist as I had passed him and carried on up to the motorway. My gut feelings were that he may have been foreign and not realised the laws governing certain vehicles on motorways, ie that pedestrians, horses, cyclists, milkfloats, agricultural vehicles and motorbikes under a certain CC are prohibited.


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## nethalus (26 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Do you two live together then?



It's my other half like. Silly sod he is!


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## magnatom (26 Sep 2007)

Tell him, in as nice a way as possible, that he got his facts completely wrong (on nearly everything he wrote), tell him there will be no hanky panky for at least a month and demand that he writes on the bus forum, that he is a reformed man and he is going to take up cycling.

That should just about cover it I think 

Oh and as for the numpty heading on to the motorway


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## gazzaputt (27 Sep 2007)

Cycling down Battersea Park Road today where this is a bus lane and a cycle path. I always use the bus lane as the cycle path is unsafe for peds and cyclists.

Idiot bus driver comes up behind and sounds his horn I turn to see what he wants of course he's telling to get on the cycle path. 

I point to the Bus lane sign which of course states Bicycles, Taxis and buses can use the lane.

He squeezes past and tries to run me off the road.

Sorry but I lost it then and I knocked seven bells out of the bus and lucky for him he didn't get out.


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## BentMikey (27 Sep 2007)

I often go along Queenstown road near there, and I'm surprised I've not yet had someone tell me to get on the cycle lane. Especially because it's dual lane so I tend to sit well out from the kerb.


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## magnatom (27 Sep 2007)

gazzaputt said:


> Cycling down Battersea Park Road today where this is a bus lane and a cycle path. I always use the bus lane as the cycle path is unsafe for peds and cyclists.
> 
> Idiot bus driver comes up behind and sounds his horn I turn to see what he wants of course he's telling to get on the cycle path.
> 
> ...



Gazzaputt,

If you didn't go too crazy you could always contact the bus company to find out if it has anything on CCTV. These buses often have several cameras on board.


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## gazzaputt (27 Sep 2007)

Yea and it'll have one of me threatening allsorts!!


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## habibi (27 Sep 2007)

Having scanned that bus driver forum thread, that sikpuppy poster is a serious accident waiting to happen. I've no doubt that he really does go fast and close beside cyclists to deliberately shake them up. Not as a _game_ as he suggests; but to get that wee ego boost each time. It troubles me that he's at large on the highway. Did you look into that any further, Magnatom?


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## nethalus (27 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> Gazzaputt,
> 
> If you didn't go too crazy you could always contact the bus company to find out if it has anything on CCTV. These buses often have several cameras on board.



Thing is unless something substantial happened the bus company are unlikely to bother down loading the CCTV. Where I work a bus has to be taken out of service in order to have it's CCTV down loaded, which means there is a possibilty of a service not running due to their being no bus and thus a potential of revenue loss, or incurring fines for a missing service. Not sure if this is the same in London. I know in some parts of London they have live CCTV that's actually monitored at a central point.


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## magnatom (28 Sep 2007)

nethalus,

You are a little bit of a stirrer aren't you? You've posted another question regarding me on the bus forum when you know I won't post there any more so I can't defend myself.

Anyway on the bus forum you have said: _One thing I've been considering over the last couple of days is, would such a fuss have intially been started if I was never a bus driver?
Let me explain. All this fuss started originally because in a moment of boredom, and I think influence of the old apple juice, I made a coment on a YouTube video (as hundreds even thousands of people do) that "if cyclists were banned there wouldn't be any more problems." It was a silly tongue in cheek coment that I didn't really take seriously myself, of course cyclists shouldn't be banned. But Magnatom took it seriously and he decided to post about it on the cycling forum. Asking other members on there whether he should report the author of the coment to their employer, who he'd managed to work out. And also saying that it was not acceptable for a bus driver to hold or make such a ridiculous coment!
Now what the crux of the issue I'm trying to make here is, would Magnatom have made such a fuss if the coment had been posted by anyone but a bus driver? For instance would he have gone to such extremes that he did (and I'm not trying to have a go at Magnatom or incite further arguments) if the coment had been posted by say a librarian or a doctor's receptionist?
Why is it that because a bus driver posted a stupid coment such a fuss was made? And would such a fuss have been made had the comentor been a checkout operator, a multi drop driver, a bookies clerk, a McDonalds worker or a university undergraduate??_ 

The simple answer is, yes it mattered a great deal that you were a bus driver. It is a bus drivers job to drive safely on the road and to respect all other road users (and to be respected back of course). Your ban cyclists comment was at odds with this. It signified a lack of respect and understanding of the issues faced by cyclists. Therefore, it played a significant part in my reaction to your post on youtube. I hope this clarifies the issue.

No hard feelings of course, just try not to stir so much!!


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## BentMikey (28 Sep 2007)

It's hard to take comments like that with a sense of humour, because the first time a bus driver threatens your life with however many tonnes of bus, that's out the window.

I know it doesn't happen often, and most bus drivers are excellent, but every once in a while you'll come across a right twunt who thinks nothing of teaching a cyclist a lesson. Unlike most, I try not to tar all bus drivers as a result of the very few bad apples amongst them.


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## magnatom (28 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> It's hard to take comments like that with a sense of humour, because the first time a bus driver threatens your life with however many tonnes of bus, that's out the window.
> 
> I know it doesn't happen often, and most bus drivers are excellent, but every once in a while you'll come across a right twunt who thinks nothing of teaching a cyclist a lesson. Unlike most, I try not to tar all bus drivers as a result of the very few bad apples amongst them.



Agreed. And I have said this many times. Actually I think I will change my signature....


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## Cab (28 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> The simple answer is, yes it mattered a great deal that you were a bus driver. It is a bus drivers job to drive safely on the road and to respect all other road users (and to be respected back of course). Your ban cyclists comment was at odds with this. It signified a lack of respect and understanding of the issues faced by cyclists. Therefore, it played a significant part in my reaction to your post on youtube. I hope this clarifies the issue.



The simple fact is that comments relating to your profession carry more weight. If a doctor comes out with some rubbish about health care, it should be challenged, but if he goes off on one about the roads he's just mouthing off. If a bus driver rants on about hospitals then thats one thing, if a bus driver suggests that cyclists should be banned its another. You have to remember, some few bus drivers _do_ try to enforce that view using their vehicles, that makes it a serious matter.

Really, we should just cut links with that lot over there. We have nothing to gain from this.


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## nethalus (28 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> nethalus,
> 
> You are a little bit of a stirrer aren't you? You've posted another question regarding me on the bus forum when you know I won't post there any more so I can't defend myself.
> 
> ...



I wasn't trying to stir things. It was just a question that had been playing at the back of my mind. I suppose I could have put the question on here but chose the other forum instead. And like I did point out, you could have simply deleted the coment I put on your video if you found it to be silly or offensive.


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## magnatom (28 Sep 2007)

Nethalus,

I really have given you the benefit of doubt, but as I am obviously being talked about over at bloodbus, I feel it wise to keep an eye on what is being said (I know you want to forget them Cab, but a lot of not particularly nice things are being said about me there). The little chat section at the bottom (only visible if your logged in) was a very interesting read this morning. I'll produce one quote in particular (that's what you keep doing on bloodbus).

sikpuppy (with reference to me) 8:55am: as i said he might come though here on a bike but he will go back in a box

Daisy Dart (nethalus) reply: LOL

Absolutely hilarious.

and a little later,

Daisy Dart: Aye it's stupid, they think road laws don't apply to them

Now thats what I call a generalisation.

I'd really love to meet this sikpuppy chap (who now also goes by the name of 'me hate cyclists'). Somehow I don't think he'd be so 'hard' in the flesh, or so willing to tell us about the things he has done to cyclists or threatens to do.

I'm sorry but I really don't like your and a number of other bloodbus member attitudes. You really are blighting the name bus drivers and that is a shame for the vast majority of drivers out there.


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## Cab (28 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> (I know you want to forget them Cab, but a lot of not particularly nice things are being said about me there).



All the more reason to rise above it. Come on, we've got Nethalus coming over here and acting nice, then going back and laughing at someone who said he'd send you home in a box, before saying outright that we think we're above the rules of the road?

_Let_ them talk about you, they're a twisted, introverted little forum for people who have twisted moral values, who think that threatening other people is funny, who think it is acceptable to boast about scaring other road users off the road. They're not representative of bus drivers in general and they're not read widely enough to make any kind of impact. Be the bigger man and walk away.


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## Tetedelacourse (28 Sep 2007)

Yeah, why value anything that comes from that man's mouth/ keyboard? Or Nethalus now for that matter? Neither are truly interested in what you have to say Mag. Leave them to it.


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## magnatom (28 Sep 2007)

As others have said. I'm movin' on.....

Nethalus, do you want to win a helmet camera?


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## nethalus (28 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> As others have said. I'm movin' on.....
> 
> Nethalus, do you want to win a helmet camera?



Uh??????


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## BentMikey (28 Sep 2007)

See here:
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3760

One of the other cyclists wrote something like this earlier: "For a small donation to charity, there's a chance of keeping a helmet camera out of the hands of a cyclist who might otherwise film some bus driver misdemeanors."

You want to post something to that effect on the bus driver forum, Nethalus? LOLOLOL!


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## gambatte (28 Sep 2007)

BentMikey said:


> One of the other cyclists wrote something like this earlier: "For a small donation to charity, there's a chance of keeping a helmet camera out of the hands of a cyclist who might otherwise film some bus driver misdemeanors."



THAT WAS ME!!!!!


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## magnatom (28 Sep 2007)

I expect to get a lot of entries now!!


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## nethalus (28 Sep 2007)

I don't have a helmet to attach it to though


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## BentMikey (28 Sep 2007)

gambatte said:


> THAT WAS ME!!!!!



Sorry, and thank you! I couldn't remember who it was, and didn't see it on a quick look.


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## BentMikey (28 Sep 2007)

nethalus said:


> I don't have a helmet to attach it to though



Neither do I - it's mounted on my handlebars.


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## nethalus (28 Sep 2007)

I haven't got any handlebars either LOL!!


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## gambatte (28 Sep 2007)

nethalus said:


> I don't have a helmet to attach it to though



Doesn't 'Road User' have a helmet you could attach it to?


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## classic33 (28 Sep 2007)

If this still relates to the youtube video I'll Quote from a response from FirstBus, passed onto them by FirstLeeds.

"If any driver is found to be operating any equipment not related to the actual driving of the vehicle whilst in charge of that vehicle. Then that driver will face internal discipline procedures. 

So maybe any bus driver operating a video camera whilst driving a FirstBus vehicle should watch what they are doing. 

By the way no names given, just a question asked over the phone.


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## nethalus (28 Sep 2007)

classic33 said:


> If this still relates to the youtube video I'll Quote from a response from FirstBus, passed onto them by FirstLeeds.
> 
> "If any driver is found to be operating any equipment not related to the actual driving of the vehicle whilst in charge of that vehicle. Then that driver will face internal discipline procedures.
> 
> ...



But what was the reason for asking the bus company that question? I have already explained in a previous reply that I do not touch the camera while I am driving only when I am at the termini or at a stop, never at traffic lights.


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## Elmer Fudd (28 Sep 2007)

magnatom said:


> I expect to get a lot of entries now!!



But they will have to join CC as they have to leave their CC moniker to win, bus drivers on a cycle forum ?? Made me chortle !!


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## domd1979 (28 Sep 2007)

Indeed. Doesn't strike me as crime of the century nor something that is jeopardising safety. If the camera is located out of the way, is only operated when the vehicle is stationary, I don't see a problem. Its not as though the camera is filming anything a bus fitted with forward facing CCTV wouldn't either.

Classic 33 - would you phone up a bus company to report every driver you see using a mobile phone, whilst parked up safely, but with the engine running?




nethalus said:


> But what was the reason for asking the bus company that question? I have already explained in a previous reply that I do not touch the camera while I am driving only when I am at the termini or at a stop, never at traffic lights.


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## classic33 (1 Oct 2007)

Main one being to get the company policy on this sort of thing. 
Secondly to see where such a complaint should be directed. 

domd1979 
Not if the vehicle was stationary. But given that the camera has been operated whilst behind the wheel of the bus(), I feel that the question was a fair one.

If thats not to your taste how about reporting the matter to the company & traffic commission out Harehills Road in Leeds.


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## col (1 Oct 2007)

nethalus said:


> But what was the reason for asking the bus company that question? I have already explained in a previous reply that I do not touch the camera while I am driving only when I am at the termini or at a stop, never at traffic lights.




This is the same as having a cam attatched to a helmet,no safety issue there.


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## Cab (1 Oct 2007)

col said:


> This is the same as having a cam attatched to a helmet,no safety issue there.



I agree. Probably no safety issue at all. Fact is though that it isn't up to us whether the company finds recording journeys by drivers acceptable. Its not our decision.


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## nethalus (1 Oct 2007)

classic33 said:


> Main one being to get the company policy on this sort of thing.
> Secondly to see where such a complaint should be directed.
> 
> domd1979
> ...




The camera is switched on and it's recording but it's not being touched in anyway by the driver. It's just sat on it's own and been left to record what ever is happening. Are there any safety issues in the video itself? Does the driver jump any red lights? Run over any pedstrians? Drive in an erratic dangrous way? The answer if think you'll agree is no.


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## col (1 Oct 2007)

Cab said:


> I agree. Probably no safety issue at all. Fact is though that it isn't up to us whether the company finds recording journeys by drivers acceptable. Its not our decision.




Agreed,OMG i agreed with you,


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## Cab (1 Oct 2007)

nethalus said:


> The camera is switched on and it's recording but it's not being touched in anyway by the driver. It's just sat on it's own and been left to record what ever is happening. Are there any safety issues in the video itself? Does the driver jump any red lights? Run over any pedstrians? Drive in an erratic dangrous way? The answer if think you'll agree is no.



Irrelevent to the bus company, it would seem.


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## nethalus (1 Oct 2007)

Cab said:


> Irrelevent to the bus company, it would seem.



I was just curious to know why Classic33 is making an issue it and asking bus companies such questions? Especially as we've all agreed there isn't a safety issue here, it doesn't infringe on people's privacy and it's no worse than having a CCTV camera filming things.


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## Cab (1 Oct 2007)

nethalus said:


> I was just curious to know why Classic33 is making an issue it and asking bus companies such questions? Especially as we've all agreed there isn't a safety issue here, it doesn't infringe on people's privacy and it's no worse than having a CCTV camera filming things.



Why he did it is his own business I'd have thought; he might simply be curious, he might have an agenda, but ultimately it doesn't matter why. He asked, he got a response. Taping your drive is not to be done.


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## nethalus (1 Oct 2007)

Wonder what Classic33 would make of this video then?


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## spindrift (1 Oct 2007)

Why are you here nethalus?

Why do you keep making stuff up about road safety?


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## nethalus (1 Oct 2007)

spindrift said:


> Why are you here nethalus?
> 
> Why do you keep making stuff up about road safety?


Answer to first question: Go back to the first posting in this thread and read the following 5 pages onwards from there. You'll find most of it is coments about me.

Second: I'm taking you mean by "making up" that I am inventing non existant things about road safety? Please point out where I have made "stuff" up about road saftey, other than in cases of using hypothetical situations to explain something.


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## stephenb (1 Oct 2007)

Bus driver ran me off the road on Saturday, deliberately as far as I can tell. No footage, but the long and short is I wouldn't/couldn't move from primary in behind parked cars. Blasted his horn several times in the space of a few hundred yards (cars parked every 20 or 30 yards intermittently) eventually overtook me when there were no more parked cars and swerved hard to the left, tail clipped my bars but somehow didn't get dumped on pavement. Guess I should have anticipated and not moved to secondary, but I generally don't hold up other vehicles where it's safe to let them pass. Bus company doesn't want to know, not surprisingly. Have cycled thousands of miles through London streets in the company of buses over the years, most drivers quite OK, a few in too much of a hurry. But this was premediated. Absolutely flabbergasted.


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## spindrift (1 Oct 2007)

_Please point out where I have made "stuff" up about road saftey, other than in cases of using hypothetical situations to explain something._


Read the thread, take particular note of my responses to you. You keep posting made -up myths abou the safety of cycle lanes, the efficacy or otherwise of road calming,the chances of bad driving being detected etc etc etc. You are wrong on all these points and you've been shown why you are wrong. I'm not sure why a non-cyclist would choose to display their ignorance about cycling on a cycling forum but lack of knowledge combined with stridency is an unattractive pairing.


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## nethalus (1 Oct 2007)

spindrift said:


> _Please point out where I have made "stuff" up about road saftey, other than in cases of using hypothetical situations to explain something._
> 
> 
> Read the thread, take particular note of my responses to you. You keep posting made -up myths abou the safety of cycle lanes, the efficacy or otherwise of road calming,the chances of bad driving being detected etc etc etc. You are wrong on all these points and you've been shown why you are wrong. I'm not sure why a non-cyclist would choose to display their ignorance about cycling on a cycling forum but lack of knowledge combined with stridency is an unattractive pairing.


Just proves you didn't understand what I was saying when I was talking about it's easier to notice a car being driven badly than a cycle, and I'm not going to explain it anymore, if you don't understand or refuse to understand that's how it'll stay.
I can't remember posting anywhere on here about cycle lanes, other than mentioning about them little boxes they have at traffic lights for cyclists to use. Are you sure you are not mixing me up with Random?


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## Cab (1 Oct 2007)

nethalus said:


> Just proves you didn't understand what I was saying when I was talking about it's easier to notice a car being driven badly than a cycle, and I'm not going to explain it anymore, if you don't understand or refuse to understand that's how it'll stay.



I'm sure Spindrift understood, and I understood what you were saying about it being easier to notice a car being driven badly than a bike, and I responded. You have failed to talk about those responses, I notice. Why? I mean, if what you want to do is discuss these points, why aren't you discussing them?

Hint: Start re-reading here
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3610&page=8


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## spindrift (1 Oct 2007)

_Just proves you didn't understand what I was saying when I was talking about it's easier to notice a car being driven badly than a cycle,_

Well, again, that is demonstrably untrue.

Cars depersonalise- witness how RTA's are described as always the car hitting something rather than the driver making an error.

Cycists, on the other hand, are visible as people which is why IMO their misdemeanours are treated as far worse transgressions than motorists. Don't believe me? Look at the coverage pavement cycling gets as opposed to cars on the pavement.


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## Cab (1 Oct 2007)

spindrift said:


> Cycists, on the other hand, are visible as people which is why IMO their misdemeanours are treated as far worse transgressions than motorists. Don't believe me? Look at the coverage pavement cycling gets as opposed to cars on the pavement.



Unjustified coverage IMHO, considering how many more pedestrians are hurt on the road by cars than by bicycles. Focussing on cyclists in this regard is just totally irrational.


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## domd1979 (1 Oct 2007)

Watched that clip, as far as I can see there's no problem at all with it. Reporting it to the operator would strike me as entirely pointless, probably verging on vindictive. 

The reason for my mobile phone question, was to try and draw a parallel. It is in fact illegal for a driver to use the phone whilst the engine is running - regardless of if they are parked safely with the handbrake on. In my view it would be an extremely anal police officer who booked a driver in that circumstance (and I certainly wouldn't be concerned by a driver using a phone in a safely parked stationary bus with the engine still on). As far as I can tell, there's no law against having a camera in the windscreen - but you seem to think that ought to be reported to all and sundry?




classic33 said:


> Main one being to get the company policy on this sort of thing.
> Secondly to see where such a complaint should be directed.
> 
> domd1979
> ...


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## col (2 Oct 2007)

Cab said:


> Irrelevent to the bus company, it would seem.




Iv asked questions,and had a look through the manual,and found no policy about recording journeys,it seems there is nothing to stop,or be worried about using a cctv.As long as its not held by the driver(obviously)So film away,it doesnt affect driving,or safety,and can probably show some interesting moments too.


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## col (2 Oct 2007)

domd1979 said:


> Watched that clip, as far as I can see there's no problem at all with it. Reporting it to the operator would strike me as entirely pointless, probably verging on vindictive.
> 
> The reason for my mobile phone question, was to try and draw a parallel. It is in fact illegal for a driver to use the phone whilst the engine is running - regardless of if they are parked safely with the handbrake on. In my view it would be an extremely anal police officer who booked a driver in that circumstance (and I certainly wouldn't be concerned by a driver using a phone in a safely parked stationary bus with the engine still on). As far as I can tell, there's no law against having a camera in the windscreen - but you seem to think that ought to be reported to all and sundry?




I was led to believe,that as long as the parking brake was on,its not a problem to use a phone,as long as it doesnt effect a timetable,ie it doesnt make you late,or stops you dealing with passengers.wheather the engine is running or not?


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## domd1979 (2 Oct 2007)

According to Croners (guide to transport operations/law):

"drivers may not use a handheld telephone while the engine is running even though the vehicle may be stationary at the time. Anyone who causes or permits any other person to use a hand-held telephone while the engine is running is also liable such as an operator telling his or her drivers to ignore the Regulations by insisting that hand-held telephones still be used" (Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regs).

Two-way radios and pressing buttons to operate a hands free phone are excepted.




col said:


> I was led to believe,that as long as the parking brake was on,its not a problem to use a phone,as long as it doesnt effect a timetable,ie it doesnt make you late,or stops you dealing with passengers.wheather the engine is running or not?


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## col (2 Oct 2007)

domd1979 said:


> According to Croners (guide to transport operations/law):
> 
> "drivers may not use a handheld telephone while the engine is running even though the vehicle may be stationary at the time. Anyone who causes or permits any other person to use a hand-held telephone while the engine is running is also liable such as an operator telling his or her drivers to ignore the Regulations by insisting that hand-held telephones still be used" (Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regs).
> 
> Two-way radios and pressing buttons to operate a hands free phone are excepted.




Thanks for that,i was putting them in the same category as radios,but then that benefits the company doesnt it,hand free was also not allowed with stagecoach ,even earpieces.Even though i saw numerous drivers with earpieces in,with other company's.Slightly off topic,but drivers have been in trouble for just having a mobile in there hand while driving(i never have by the way)but iv never heard of anyone who is scrutinising a timetable while driving,yes it happens,ever get into trouble for this,mmm makes you think doesnt it,i would personally say reading while driving is more dangerous,than talking,unless of course your trying to text while driving.


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## domd1979 (2 Oct 2007)

I remember reading a report a little while back about a coach driver who appeared in front of the Traffic Commissioner after being caught playing on a handheld Playstation whilst at the wheel!!! 





col said:


> Slightly off topic,but drivers have been in trouble for just having a mobile in there hand while driving(i never have by the way)but iv never heard of anyone who is scrutinising a timetable while driving,yes it happens,ever get into trouble for this,mmm makes you think doesnt it,i would personally say reading while driving is more dangerous,than talking,unless of course your trying to text while driving.


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## col (2 Oct 2007)

domd1979 said:


> I remember reading a report a little while back about a coach driver who appeared in front of the Traffic Commissioner after being caught playing on a handheld Playstation whilst at the wheel!!!





You wouldnt believe it would you?The things some people do just leave me gobsmacked.


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2007)

Cab said:


> Irrelevent to the bus company, it would seem.



Its just that company (First) policy is that to use a camera on board of their vehicles, legally, you are first required to obtain written permission from them.
In your request you have to give the reason for the use of the camera, whatever type. As well as saying what you intend to do with the pictures/video afterwards. This I don't think will have been obtained. 

Also suggest that the next time you get on a FirstBus lookout for the signs that the company are obliged by law to put on display. Details of camera(s) owner & operator have to be clearly visible. Any other camera carried & used isn't covered by this.


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## BentMikey (29 Oct 2007)

Here's a short clip of a good bus driver, his sort are thankfully the rule rather than the exception.


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## nethalus (29 Oct 2007)

I got thanked by a cyclist the other day. I was about to pull out from a bus stop when I noticed the chap suddenly appear so I hung back a second. He gave a wave of thanks for letting him pass without pulling out on him.


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## col (30 Oct 2007)

Similar thing tonight,i was indicating to pull out of a bus stop laybye,this cyclist actually stopped and waved me on,he got the thumbs up out of the window,and a four way flash too.


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## BentMikey (30 Oct 2007)

Those thank-yous are great, it really makes my journey when I get one, so I always try to thank others for their consideration towards me.


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## gambatte (30 Oct 2007)

Think I surprised a bus driver a couple of weeks ago. I was about half a dozen vehicles back from the lights. Between myself and the lights was a pull-in bus stop with a Plaxtons low floor, he was indicating to pull out.
The lights changed, traffic started moving and because I was in primary I was able to indicate he could move.

Took him about 20-30 seconds to realise a cyclist was holding up traffic and letting him out


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## BentMikey (30 Oct 2007)

LOL, quality Gambatte! Sheer effrontery, brilliant!!! I do it myself too.


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## nethalus (30 Oct 2007)

gambatte said:


> Think I surprised a bus driver a couple of weeks ago. I was about half a dozen vehicles back from the lights. Between myself and the lights was a pull-in bus stop with a Plaxtons low floor, he was indicating to pull out.
> The lights changed, traffic started moving and because I was in primary I was able to indicate he could move.
> 
> Took him about 20-30 seconds to realise a cyclist was holding up traffic and letting him out



Stories like that restore one's faith in cyclist kind, just as I'm sure I restored that cyclist's faith in bus driver kind. Must admit though I've not so far actually had a cyclist hang back and let me out. 
Once had one who made me a bit angry, all the cars had stopped to let me out of the stop, but a cyclist decided to swerve round the cars and round my bus as I was starting to manuver out. Thought it was a bit ignorant of him, seeing how everyone else had kindly held back to let me out.


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## Rhythm Thief (30 Oct 2007)

nethalus said:


> Stories like that restore one's faith in cyclist kind, just as I'm sure I restored that cyclist's faith in bus driver kind. Must admit though I've not so far actually had a cyclist hang back and let me out.
> Once had one who made me a bit angry, all the cars had stopped to let me out of the stop, but a cyclist decided to swerve round the cars and round my bus as I was starting to manuver out. Thought it was a bit ignorant of him, seeing how everyone else had kindly held back to let me out.



That's both annoying and suicidal.


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## nethalus (31 Oct 2007)

Rhythm Thief said:


> That's both annoying and suicidal.


Is it?? Are you having some sort of problems then that makes you consider taking your own life?? Suggest you seek some help!


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## Jacomus-rides-Gen (31 Oct 2007)

I think he meant the cyclist!


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## Rhythm Thief (31 Oct 2007)

nethalus said:


> Is it?? Are you having some sort of problems then that makes you consider taking your own life?? Suggest you seek some help!



I think you've misunderstood Nethy ... I was on about the cyclist being both annoying and suicidal, as JrG pointed out!


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## nethalus (1 Nov 2007)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I think you've misunderstood Nethy ... I was on about the cyclist being both annoying and suicidal, as JrG pointed out!



Oh sorry Rythm Thief!!


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