# I have a dream. Dream of having my own brand mtb.



## silverman (3 Jul 2014)

Before you guys ask, no I'm not the reincarnation of Martin Luther King, but I do have a dream. The difference is Dr King's dream came true, but mine is a bit crazy. I have a pretty good hunch that I'm way out of my depth but I will share it anyway. :-) First a lil background about me; I'm not a technical person, and my knowledge of bikes is pretty basic. I have ridden bikes since I was a kid, but only recently since I bought my Cube ltd 2012 last year, I've become fascinated by bikes and especially mountain bikes. My background is in web development, internet marketing & branding, but I had this crazy dream that with partnering up with someone who is super technical and passionate who knows how to design frames and build bikes, I could launch my own brand of British made bikes. My idea is to sell only online & rather than spending money by disributing the bikes in high streets, spending it to incorporate better components for the bike. I was thinkng along the lines of 3 or 4 models to start with, with an entry model at £450 to £600.
Do you think I'm barmey or do you think it could be done and may even succeed? What kind of investment do you think is necessary to get a project like this going? It will be great to hear your thoughts.


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## Paul99 (3 Jul 2014)

silverman said:


> What kind of investment do you think is necessary to get a project like this going? It will be great to hear your thoughts.


 At least 7 zeroes.


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## KneesUp (3 Jul 2014)

You could get batches of a dozen or so Ti or carbon frames made in China to fit up and sell, but they'd need to be expensive at that quantity. If you want to be able to knock them out at £600 you need to order a lot of frames and components (very expensive) or sell them at a loss with the hope you can build up enough customers to be able to order quantities large enough to make a profit (potentially just as expensive)

Your business model sounds similar to Planet X.


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## Paul99 (3 Jul 2014)

KneesUp said:


> You could get batches of a dozen or so Ti or carbon frames made in China to fit up and sell, but they'd need to be expensive at that quantity. If you want to be able to knock them out at £600 you need to order a lot of frames and components (very expensive) or sell them at a loss with the hope you can build up enough customers to be able to order quantities large enough to make a profit (potentially just as expensive)
> 
> Your business model sounds similar to Planet X.


OP said British made? I take it that means he wants to make them here, not just add a groupset to a chinese frame.


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## KneesUp (3 Jul 2014)

Paul99 said:


> OP said British made? I take it that means he wants to make them here, not just add a groupset to a chinese frame.


I missed that bit. Selling them as full bikes made in the UK for £450 is going to be tough - that's the sort of price my mountain bike was in 1990 and it is only lower-middle range.

Oxford Bike Works make some lovely MTB-inspired touring/adventure bikes made in the UK starting at c. £1,000 though.


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## Kins (3 Jul 2014)

You could make your own frames easily enough (relatively speaking) if you bought the components and just added tubes if you worked in CroMo/Reynolds or aluminium. Forks are the hardest to manufacture I would have thought.

By that I mean buying premade BBs, Crowns, Dropouts, Lugs when you start and build up from there. Sorting geometry etc and designing the frame, sorting what sizes your going to make and what ranges your going to have. Starting with a 2 or 3 bike range might be doable but thats not where the real costs would be. Getting your brand out there and people buying it is where the real costs are going to lie. Just having an online store really wouldn't get you anywhere.

If you had just two people working, you wouldn't want to be paid much less than £16k each, so thats £32k before you buy anything. Your probably looking at £120-150k to just get up and running and making a handful of bikes.


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## Cycleops (3 Jul 2014)

Well, it has been done before and with some success. If you are targeting the budget end of the market you will need volume which in turn needs money. You couldn't build them in the UK, they would have to be manufactured and built in the Far East somewhere. If you are into internet marketing you will know how important it is to get the story of your brand across. If you could get in touch with someone in the UK who perhaps works for on the cycle companies who has done this that could be very illuminating.


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## silverman (3 Jul 2014)

Thank you very much for your input guys. Very interesting. I'm slightly encouraged although I'm apprehensive about the budget required. The only thing I need to work out is if I have the stomache for such an endeavour.


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## Kins (3 Jul 2014)

Wrong thread ><


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## Cycleops (4 Jul 2014)

I think it is incredibly enterprising of you to even consider this endeavour. Just before you decide to blow the whole thing out you should take things further by doing a bit of research and try to contact some manufactures. It won't cost you anything and might help you to make up your mind. I know that Giant make for other brands but I'm sure with a bit of delving you can find some others. If you are at all encouraged by what you discover you could take a trip out there, it would only cost you the air fare and some expenses but there is nothing like seeing and meeting the people who run these operations.

You will need some storage or warehousing facilities in the UK. If you have access to a garage that might be all you need initially but you can rent space if you need to, maybe even use some of the self storage container sites. You will also need a good reliable courier for delivery.

I wish you the very best of luck.


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## Cubist (4 Jul 2014)

Plenty of British business models to explore, but if you're thinking of building British made frames I think your aspirations of knocking out base models at £4-600 is a pipedream. At that sort of money you're going to be putting frankly garbage components on it,and that means they won't compete with even the budget stuff. The buying power of the likes of Cube, Canyon, Rose means that the cost of OEM kit on them is slashed to the bone, They can sell bikes at the retail cost of the groupset, and compared with other bikes you're more or less getting the frame for free.

You simply won't compete at entry level, because the market there is not discerning enough to buy for the sake of brand loyalty or patriotic fervour.The big names already have that market sewn up, and you won't compete with them from the outset. Better perhaps to look further up the foodchain, and muscle your way into an established niche. Brands like Orange spring to mind. Very loyal following, even though an equivalently specc'd bike costs less from other brands. Cotic for example developed a hardtail frame geometry that has proved to be extremely popular, so much so that their premium steel frame, the Soul, is pretty well the standard by which all other steel hardtails are judged. That frame in 26" flavour retails at £475, in 853 steel alloy. It's burlier brother in chromoly costs about £350. Dialled bikes, Ragley, On One, Genesis, Stanton, Orange, all British companies producing a steel do it all hardtail, each with a loyal following, and varying degrees of market share, but again, Taiwanese production quality means that in the main, frames are either made there, or imported as tubesets to be welded here. Full builds on such bikes start at about £800-£1000 with low-budget groupsets. Custom builders like Stif and Eighteen are worth a look. Browse their site and see what inspires you.

DO you have a design in mind, or do you want a frame designer to come up with a concept which you will market?


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## Crackle (4 Jul 2014)

As per Cubist, you need to look at the niche market and you need an angle, a speciality which will make people want your frame. The devil will be in the detail because details are what people in that niche are looking at.


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## KneesUp (4 Jul 2014)

I was going to say similar @Crackle . I'm not sure what the USP of the OP is. I don't think you can have all of low price, handmade in the UK and good quality. You need to pick two.


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## silverman (4 Jul 2014)

Kins said:


> You could make your own frames easily enough (relatively speaking) if you bought the components and just added tubes if you worked in CroMo/Reynolds or aluminium. Forks are the hardest to manufacture I would have thought.
> 
> By that I mean buying premade BBs, Crowns, Dropouts, Lugs when you start and build up from there. Sorting geometry etc and designing the frame, sorting what sizes your going to make and what ranges your going to have. Starting with a 2 or 3 bike range might be doable but thats not where the real costs would be. Getting your brand out there and people buying it is where the real costs are going to lie. Just having an online store really wouldn't get you anywhere.
> 
> If you had just two people working, you wouldn't want to be paid much less than £16k each, so thats £32k before you buy anything. Your probably looking at £120-150k to just get up and running and making a handful of bikes.



I agree with you about an online store not being enough. I was thinking of a digital marketing campaign including video clips, social Networking ads, SEO.... etc


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## silverman (4 Jul 2014)

Cubist said:


> Plenty of British business models to explore, but if you're thinking of building British made frames I think your aspirations of knocking out base models at £4-600 is a pipedream. At that sort of money you're going to be putting frankly garbage components on it,and that means they won't compete with even the budget stuff. The buying power of the likes of Cube, Canyon, Rose means that the cost of OEM kit on them is slashed to the bone, They can sell bikes at the retail cost of the groupset, and compared with other bikes you're more or less getting the frame for free.
> 
> You simply won't compete at entry level, because the market there is not discerning enough to buy for the sake of brand loyalty or patriotic fervour.The big names already have that market sewn up, and you won't compete with them from the outset. Better perhaps to look further up the foodchain, and muscle your way into an established niche. Brands like Orange spring to mind. Very loyal following, even though an equivalently specc'd bike costs less from other brands. Cotic for example developed a hardtail frame geometry that has proved to be extremely popular, so much so that their premium steel frame, the Soul, is pretty well the standard by which all other steel hardtails are judged. That frame in 26" flavour retails at £475, in 853 steel alloy. It's burlier brother in chromoly costs about £350. Dialled bikes, Ragley, On One, Genesis, Stanton, Orange, all British companies producing a steel do it all hardtail, each with a loyal following, and varying degrees of market share, but again, Taiwanese production quality means that in the main, frames are either made there, or imported as tubesets to be welded here. Full builds on such bikes start at about £800-£1000 with low-budget groupsets. Custom builders like Stif and Eighteen are worth a look. Browse their site and see what inspires you.
> 
> DO you have a design in mind, or do you want a frame designer to come up with a concept which you will market?



Thank you for your input Cubist. I see your point about quality base model not being feasible at 400 to 600 unless I make a huge investment. 
I don't have a particular design in mind. I'm not technical. I'm more of a marketing/branding person. Having said that I do have a strong sense of what I like and what I enjoy riding. I recently rode the Voodoo bizango and really loved it. To me it felt and rode better than some bikes that are priced over £1000. Also I think the brand "Voodoo" is strong, memorable and quirky. In a way I think maybe Voodoo has shot itself in the foot by going exclusive with halfords but that's another story .... What I'm trying to get at is; I think the marriage between good quality frame/components and strong brand & identity can work well. So a quality frame deigned in the UK with a strong British identity could work well and probably more so if the right balance between quality/cost and brand/identity is struck. So to answer your question; no I don't have a frame in mind, but if I were to take on this challenge (and it is a big if at this stage) then I would be looking for a frame deigner. Importing ready-made carbon frames from China would not appeal to me. Thanks again


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## Cubist (5 Jul 2014)

silverman said:


> Thank you for your input Cubist. I see your point about quality base model not being feasible at 400 to 600 unless I make a huge investment.
> I don't have a particular design in mind. I'm not technical. I'm more of a marketing/branding person. Having said that I do have a strong sense of what I like and what I enjoy riding. I recently rode the Voodoo bizango and really loved it. To me it felt and rode better than some bikes that are priced over £1000. Also I think the brand "Voodoo" is strong, memorable and quirky. In a way I think maybe Voodoo has shot itself in the foot by going exclusive with halfords but that's another story .... What I'm trying to get at is; I think the marriage between good quality frame/components and strong brand & identity can work well. So a quality frame deigned in the UK with a strong British identity could work well and probably more so if the right balance between quality/cost and brand/identity is struck. So to answer your question; no I don't have a frame in mind, but if I were to take on this challenge (and it is a big if at this stage) then I would be looking for a frame deigner. Importing ready-made carbon frames from China would not appeal to me. Thanks again


In which case go and google Cotic. Si developed a frame concept and ethos that dates back to his initial love of MTBing. He produces frames in several variants, Soul, Solaris, BFe, Rocket, Roadrat and a CX frame which name escapes me. His signature is steel frames, and the major success the Soul has now been re marketed in 650b. His site gives a flavour plus a potted history, but doesn't quite encapsulate the niche fervour that his brand engenders. A quick search of singletrackworld.com using the terms Cotic or steel hardtail will give you that taste. 

Brand mystique is another key factor along with Niche. Look at Hope for a feeling of what they have built up over the years.. Mythical quality, and a great solid " designed and crafted" in the Pennines sort of thing. They are expensive and questionable in terms of performance, but their customer service and fan base are the key. 

Another famous UK frame designer is Brant Richards. He used to be the "shedfire" brand that designed for Ragley. He's parted company with them and now works with On One. He has redesigned or tweaked their famous hardtail stable and they have also bought up an old US brand, Titus and now have a selection of full suss bikes on offer. They do import Chinese carbon.


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## silverman (5 Jul 2014)

Cubist said:


> In which case go and google Cotic. Si developed a frame concept and ethos that dates back to his initial love of MTBing. He produces frames in several variants, Soul, Solaris, BFe, Rocket, Roadrat and a CX frame which name escapes me. His signature is steel frames, and the major success the Soul has now been re marketed in 650b. His site gives a flavour plus a potted history, but doesn't quite encapsulate the niche fervour that his brand engenders. A quick search of singletrackworld.com using the terms Cotic or steel hardtail will give you that taste.
> 
> Brand mystique is another key factor along with Niche. Look at Hope for a feeling of what they have built up over the years.. Mythical quality, and a great solid " designed and crafted" in the Pennines sort of thing. They are expensive and questionable in terms of performance, but their customer service and fan base are the key.
> 
> Another famous UK frame designer is Brant Richards. He used to be the "shedfire" brand that designed for Ragley. He's parted company with them and now works with On One. He has redesigned or tweaked their famous hardtail stable and they have also bought up an old US brand, Titus and now have a selection of full suss bikes on offer. They do import Chinese carbon.



Thank you so much Cubist. I really appreciate your input. I will definitely look them up this weekend. :-)


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## Archie_tect (23 Jul 2014)

Contact Mango Bikes... they'rre a bunch of young lads who started up as a hobby fixing bikes and worked up their company from nothing.


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## KneesUp (24 Jul 2014)

If you could do "British Made" £400 to £600 no-one would buy them because the perception would be that they wouldn't be any good, regardless of how good they were - people seem to want to spend £1000 on a bike these days. Of course if you could afford to sell them at £400 to £600 and sold them for 9 months of the year at £1000 and 3 months at £500, you'd be a happy chap I suppose.


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