# Balancing risk and reward



## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

I had a nasty off the other day (trip to A&E and now munching pain killers in a pretty-much-immobile state on the sofa - fortunately no permanent damage done though) and it's been making me think a little about risk and reward in mountain biking. 

Obviously it's no fun to pootle around the trails at tourist pace. Especially when it's a route you know really well, you want to push the envelope at least a little, or it's not as much fun, there's no real challenge, and you won't improve your skills. But does that automatically mean there's always going to be a low but significant risk of accidents happening? 

My crash happened on a tricky little chicane at the top of a very steep slope. The first several times I rode it, it was a case of anchors on and stick to the grippy, well surfaced middle of the track - this is safe but boring. Later on I started carrying more speed in and rode up high on the muddy berms on either side, and I got pretty confident at this - much more fun and I must have done it dozens of times with no problems whatsoever. Still don't really know what went wrong this time (a few slippy leaves maybe) but I had a front wheel wash-out on the first berm. I somehow saved it and just had time to think "phew, that was close" before the exact same thing happened on the next berm and down I went. 

I definitely wouldn't say I get a buzz from the risk of injury, but I *do* get one from nailing a tricky section a little faster than I did last week, or getting a little more air off of that rock slab kicker around the next corner. It's also probably fair to say I get a "that was close" moment from doing this every dozen rides or so. 

I've ridden around 750 miles of trails and bridleways this year over 84 rides (I'm dead lucky in that there is a mini trail centre right next to work, so I often take a quick spin before commuting back home), and it's probably been the most fun I've ever had on a bike. Is it worth the occasional bad off and associated injuries? Even though I will without a doubt be back on my bike as soon as I've healed up and checked it over, I'm not totally sure I can justify it in a rational cost/benefit sense! 

I'd be interested to know your thoughts - how do you guys go about balancing risk and reward in your riding?


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## Brandane (19 Oct 2016)

Can't help much as I tend to play safe these days, even when I take a rare venture out on the MTB to one of the 7 Stanes tracks. 
You don't say what age you are, but I find that now I am in my mid 50's I don't bounce as well as I used to, and injuries take forever to fully recover from. Just not worth it any more.
More importantly, take it easy and GWS..


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## MichaelW2 (19 Oct 2016)

British outdoor sorts people tend to be less risk averse than US riders who may be further from medical care with no free helicopter ride. Medical costs can also factor in.
I have seen video of British MTBers in South America, arsing around on steep, high ancient ruins. One mistake and you are a 2day journey from a 3rd rate hospital with no advanced care until you get to a big city.


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## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

Blimey yeah, I hadn't thought of that @MichaelW2 . We're really lucky to be only a phone call away from excellent medical care in the UK! 

FWIW I'm early thirties and generally fairly comfortable with potentially risky physical stuff like MTB'ing, trail running and scrambling around on mountains and so on (I also work outdoors, though I'm certainly a lot more careful with chainsaws etc than I am on my bike). 

Will definitely be taking it easy for the next week or so, not much choice in the matter frankly!


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## Jody (19 Oct 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> I'd be interested to know your thoughts - how do you guys go about balancing risk and reward in your riding?



I try to not think about it and ride up to 90-95% of my skill level. Riding for me is about calculated risks for the buzz I get. Yes, sh*t will sometimes happen (like my off at Llandegla a couple of weeks ago) especially if you are just learning or pushing your limits but there is nothing you can do about that if you accept the sport. It makes me shudder thinking after a ride about what could have gone wrong during. That said age is catching up with me, I have a mortgage, children, partner to think about and as above with age comes the realisation you take longer to mend and don't bounce like you did as a kid. 

Know your limits, ride as far as you can see and don't take excessive risks.


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## Hugh Manatee (19 Oct 2016)

On the rare occasions I go mountain biking these days I repeat the mantra, "The only time my wheels leave the ground is when I lift it back into the car."

This attitude kicked in somewhere around my mid 30s so hopefully you only have a year or two to avoid a maiming! It started off with me thinking, Ooh, I don't like the look of this and ended with me visualising the last scene of Tremors when the big worm thing crashes through the cliff and splats on the rocks below a year or two later.

It could also be I'm a wuss of course.


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## snorri (19 Oct 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> FWIW I'm early thirties



Yes,.....approaching middle age, so a good time to reassess the lifestyle in order to improve the chances of hitting three score and ten in reasonable condition.


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## Jody (19 Oct 2016)

snorri said:


> Yes,.....approaching middle age, so a good time to reassess the lifestyle in order to improve the chances of hitting three score and ten in reasonable condition.



Is that when self preservation usually kicks in?


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## rideswithmoobs (19 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> Is that when self preservation usually kicks in?



Dunno, I'm 41 and just left the roads to ride off road. Each has its risks, I personally think the traffic on roads these days makes it just as if not more dangerous. Trail centres are a safer option but I don't do the red bull xtreme fighters style stuff. That's for the young ones


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## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

snorri said:


> approaching middle age



Haha, I don't like the sound of that! But true all the same. Fortunately no kids of my own to jump up and down on me while I'm out of action just yet, and Mrs Chris has been far more sympathetic than I deserve, especially since she's not dead keen on me mountain biking in the first place.

@Jody that sounds pretty much like how I've been weighing things up. It makes perfect sense when I'm out on the trails having a great time, but doesn't stack up quite so well thinking about it in a more detatched way. If I was risk assessing it at work there's no way it would fly, that's for sure! On this occasion I *was* riding within my usual limits (I've learnt my lesson there previously), probably somewhere around the 90-95% level you mention - it just evidently doesn't take much of the unexpected for things to go pear shaped at that point. The only slight difference from usual could possibly have been that I went out for a long ride on my (new to me) full sus bike at the weekend, and then hopped back on the less forgiving rigid on the Monday. But I suspect I'd have fallen off on either bike TBH.

@Hugh Manatee I adhered to this (probably very sensible!) mantra for the first eight months or so, and my wheels definitely don't leave the floor on anything I'm uncomfortable with. I'd totally recommend it to anyone else starting mountain biking too. To put it into perspective, while it feels like I'm getting "big" air, it's probably only six inches or so, and is probably more like within 60-70% of what I could probably pull off successfully. The hairy moments tend to come when leaning the bike over into a fast corner, or having my weight thrown a little further forward than I'm comfortable with on the tricky downhills.

Thinking about it a bit more, I'm really pretty good on trails I don't know so well, and am happy to take it easy. The "Oh Sh!t" moments always seem to come on the trails I've ridden dozens of times before so I know where I can push myself a little. My reasoning self agrees it's time to reign it in a touch, but I just know the little devil sitting on my left shoulder will win when I'm out on the trails. 

@rideswithmoobs I'd say MTB'ing is far more dangerous than road cycling, at least for me, except maybe if you are forced to commute across a lot of icy roads in winter (having tried this and falling off a lot (harmlessly) I'd advise - don't!). Then again I never feel the need to push myself on the downhills when I'm out on the road - there are plenty of descents around me where you'd lose a lot of skin if things went wrong there.


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## fossyant (19 Oct 2016)

Crap happens sometimes, you can hit greasy surfaces on the road too. I'm munching pain killers like toffee's after crashing at Llandegla on Saturday - safest part of the course on top of the mountain. Just one of those things. A colleague crashed at Llandegla on Sunday an a red berm and can't walk.

I've moved more to off road, due to my rather nasty accident last year - I've lost confidence on road.

You are more or less likely to have a small off each time you ride MTB, it's the law.

We were discussing trail centres and general off road. You know with a trail centre, that it's designed to be ridden, even if it looks scary. General off road, if it is scary, it might not be ridable. Risks are higher, so you ride within your limits.


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## rideswithmoobs (19 Oct 2016)

[/QUOTE]@rideswithmoobs I'd say MTB'ing is far more dangerous than road cycling, at least for me, except maybe if you are forced to commute across a lot of icy roads in winter (having tried this and falling off a lot (harmlessly) I'd advise - don't!). Then again I never feel the need to push myself on the downhills when I'm out on the road - there are plenty of descents around me where you'd lose a lot of skin if things went wrong there.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is if your doing crazy jumps and pro looking stuff but I reckon I would come off slightly better in a crash off road than a run in with a 1 tonne car. Suppose it's down to risk and each individual. I've ridden motorbikes since I was 16 and see no risk or worry riding them on the roads but others do. It's what your use too.
I wouldn't want to crash on my MTB or road bike or motorbike to be honest so just don t think about it


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## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

@rideswithmoobs I'm fortunate in that I've never had so much as a close shave with a car in many years of commuting on the road. Agreed I'd rather come off on the MTB than have an accident in traffic any day. My risk/reward assessment is much more sensible when commuting though - five minutes late to work is about the worst possible outcome, which wins over taking silly risks any day. I also used to ride a motorbike, and that one's fallen to the risk/reward fairy. So I'm driving a lovely boring practical Peugeot 107 instead - woot! 

@fossyant I guess you're right, there's always that risk every single ride, like @Jody said it's the nature of the sport. 

The things we do for fun, eh?!


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## rideswithmoobs (19 Oct 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> @rideswithmoobs I'm fortunate in that I've never had so much as a close shave with a car in many years of commuting on the road. Agreed I'd rather come off on the MTB than have an accident in traffic any day. My risk/reward assessment is much more sensible when commuting though - five minutes late to work is about the worst possible outcome, which wins over taking silly risks any day. I also used to ride a motorbike, and that one's fallen to the risk/reward fairy. So I'm driving a lovely boring practical Peugeot 107 instead - woot!
> 
> @fossyant I guess you're right, there's always that risk every single ride, like @Jody said it's the nature of the sport.
> 
> The things we do for fun, eh?!



Nooooooooooo beat that feckin fairy and get back your bike.


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## fossyant (19 Oct 2016)

At least I tested out my healed spine at weekend. I was more worried about the bike, but nothing happened to it !


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## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

rideswithmoobs said:


> Nooooooooooo beat that feckin fairy and get back your bike.



Haha, if I had nine lives I would, but as it is, no way! (I'd need at least one spare one 'cos Mrs Chris would probably kill me )


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## Crackle (19 Oct 2016)

There's a certain thrill to risk and to pushing yourself to your limits. I kinda did that when I was an active rock climber/mountaineer and it taught me a lot about my own attitude to risk and my physical limits. Sometimes on the mtn bike I feel a certain frisson as I head towards something but I know my limits and when I'm out my comfort zone, which is reasonably quickly on a bike as I don't have the skills. Trail centres are fun but I think I'm more of an remote XC rider. I say think because I've still not done too much of it on my mtn bike despite promising myself I would, the trouble is making the effort to go somewhere with the bike whereas the road bike you just drag out and ride.


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## rideswithmoobs (19 Oct 2016)

Another thing I do like about the MTB is I can go out my back Door and take the canal & cyckepath to Halton and out onto fields, woods, farm tracks and singketrack roads for a very good ride. Yeah I can do it on a cyclocross bike and have done but it never felt right on a narrow drop handle bar bike on grass downhill descents or thick muddy fields. The wide bars and seating position of the MTB make it more fun, confidence inspiring and controllable. I have just as much fun doing that locally and it's made for winter shitty conditions. I can ride all year in all weathers on all terrain and don't always need to put it in the van and hit the lakes. MTB is not always about daredevil riding I suppose.


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## ChrisEyles (19 Oct 2016)

@rideswithmoobs that sounds great, you're really lucky with what you have on your doorstep! I can't complain at all (Dartmoor & Exmoor are 45 mins away Haldon trail centre less than that, and a few local trails right next to work), but it would be great to be able to take the MTB from the front door and get off road. Mind you, then my road bikes might feel a bit neglected! 

That's a really nice looking bike you've got there too btw


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## rideswithmoobs (19 Oct 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> @rideswithmoobs that sounds great, you're really lucky with what you have on your doorstep! I can't complain at all (Dartmoor & Exmoor are 45 mins away Haldon trail centre less than that, and a few local trails right next to work), but it would be great to be able to take the MTB from the front door and get off road. Mind you, then my road bikes might feel a bit neglected!
> 
> That's a really nice looking bike you've got there too btw



Sounds like we both live in pretty nice areas for cycling 
Bikes a Whyte 905 I only got it a few weeks ago. I was considering the Whyte Gisburn gravel bike but off-road on drops I just never got in with. I like Whyte bikes and my genesis day one.


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## screenman (19 Oct 2016)

Trouble is I have a 60 year old body and a 16 year old brain when it comes to taking chances.

Growing older is compulsory, growing up is not.


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## I like Skol (20 Oct 2016)

ChrisEyles said:


> .......FWIW I'm early thirties.....!


Just a baby then.



fossyant said:


> You are more or less likely to have a small off each time you ride MTB, it's the law.
> 
> We were discussing trail centres and general off road. You know with a trail centre, that it's designed to be ridden, even if it looks scary. General off road, if it is scary, it might not be ridable. Risks are higher, so you ride within your limits.


I don't plan on falling off on any trip so not sure about that statement? I'm also not sure that cliff I rode down (twice!) was really 'designed' to be rideable......


screenman said:


> Trouble is I have a 60 year old body and a 16 year old brain when it comes to taking chances.
> 
> Growing older is compulsory, growing up is not.


My wife keeps saying 'age is a terrible thing' because of the effect it has on peoples bodies and minds. The trouble is I am fast approaching my mid-40s but still ride like a twenty-something year old and feel about 18. Maybe age will catch up with me one day but it will have to be bloody quick because I don't intend slowing down .

I usually give it 100% when on the MTB and sometimes a bit more for good measure. I always remember an interview I once heard with an F1 driver (can't remember who it was) but what he said kind of summed it up for me. He said that when driving around the track on the very edge of what is possible you cannot always be in control if you want to be the fastest. He made an analogy to running along the edge of a cliff and coming to some parts where the ground had fallen away. At these points you just had to keep running as fast as you could and jump the void. Once you have jumped you are no longer in control but as long as you have somewhere safe to land and can reach that point then the moments of uncontrolled motion don't matter.
This doesn't mean that the moments spent in the air after hitting a jump are ok but more that sometimes you might ride something too steep, or too slippy or too rocky and you just have to let go of your brakes and go with it until you get back to 'good' ground. I guess the skill is in knowing when to do that or realising quickly enough that sh!t, this is one of 'those' moments.


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## Jody (20 Oct 2016)

I like Skol said:


> I guess the skill is in knowing when to do that or realising quickly enough that sh!t, this is one of 'those' moments.



Exactly that and only experience can teach you about those situations. 

@ChrisEyles Ever thought about ding a skills course locally. They can teach you a lot of fundementals like body positionning etc. It may seem obvious but they can really improve your technique for not much money.


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## ChrisEyles (20 Oct 2016)

@I like Skol that reassures me that I'm not the only loony with a death wish on the bike  Seriously though, what you've written makes good sense. It's just kind of inconvenient that the only way to fine tune that sense of judgement is to get stuck in and occasionally make painful mistakes! 

@Jody, yes, I've considered going along to a skills class up at Haldon some time (Mrs Chris is worried they'll try to teach me to do death-defying aerial stunts though!). I think my body positioning and general technique isn't too bad (except that my high-ish seat and low-ish bar preference makes life difficult on steep bumpy downs), but I'm sure I'd learn a lot of other stuff either way.


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## fossyant (20 Oct 2016)

Skolly is doing Rampage next year. We've signed him up.


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## ChrisEyles (20 Oct 2016)

Haha, good on him! Maybe we should do a whip around for some knee pads...?


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## rideswithmoobs (21 Oct 2016)

I went out today and road the canal and phsycho path to caton and then up to the caton wind farm and rode some of the north lancs bridleway. ....






I was thinking about this risk reward lark as I rode and couldn't help thinking that I enjoy packing the bike in the van and heading out to the lakes but in those hills in winter, alone and isolated it's a big risk, but where I was today was not so and I loved it. Yes there is always risk and danger but it's less in this environment, and it's more populated. I then got to thinking how much I enjoy just jumping on the bike at the back Door and setting off with no driving involved. 90% was single track or off road so no traffic and it was relatively safe alone. Local clubs like the bog trotters ride out on Saturdays which is not an option for me, safety in numbers, so solo riding during the week is my only possibility. This led me to think that 80% of my riding could be done in a much safer environment than the one I was in at Garburn pass but I don't need a Whyte MTB to do it. 
I was left thinking do I need this new MTB ?
Have I bought the wrong bike ?
Have I tried to take on a more safer type of cycling but actually added more risk due to the fact I ride alone ? 

Too much time to think today


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## marzjennings (21 Oct 2016)

It's rare not to come back in from an mtb ride with a cut or bruise somewhere. With the wife often asking 'how did that happen?' while pointing to some mark on my body. I tend to push it pretty hard, looking to see if I can still crush strava numbers from previous years and younger riders. Plus the trend recently is to add 'features' to the local trails and while they actually slow me down I do attempt to hit all the jumps, rollers, drops and skinnies that the local trail crew have built. 

I also think there's a wee proving to myself aspect, that as I approach 50 I can still ride as hard as I like and still take the knocks. I still want to hit Whistler one more time, before I'm too old for that.


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## rideswithmoobs (21 Oct 2016)

marzjennings said:


> It's rare not to come back in from an mtb ride with a cut or bruise somewhere. With the wife often asking 'how did that happen?' while pointing to some mark on my body. I tend to push it pretty hard, looking to see if I can still crush strava numbers from previous years and younger riders. Plus the trend recently is to add 'features' to the local trails and while they actually slow me down I do attempt to hit all the jumps, rollers, drops and skinnies that the local trail crew have built.
> 
> I also think there's a wee proving to myself aspect, that as I approach 50 I can still ride as hard as I like and still take the knocks. I still want to hit Whistler one more time, before I'm too old for that.



I think at 41 I'm too old to be learning jumps & rollers


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## Jody (21 Oct 2016)

rideswithmoobs said:


> This led me to think that 80% of my riding could be done in a much safer environment than the one I was in at Garburn pass but I don't need a Whyte MTB to do it.
> I was left thinking do I need this new MTB ?
> Have I bought the wrong bike ?
> Have I tried to take on a more safer type of cycling but actually added more risk due to the fact I ride alone ?
> ...



You're over thinking it a little. I definitely don't think your bike is over kill and it always leaves you the option to go on harder trails. Its perfect for those type of trails pictured as its light, fast, comfy XC bike. The only issue with the other trail you were riding is isolation and being on your own, which is OK if you know and accept the risks.

As for buying the wrong bike, it's the same as why I bought the bike I did rather than go for a bigger hitting FS. Its comfy for all day riding on the railway paths/local woods which is 50+% of what I do, there is little in the peaks I can't ride on it (all be it not quite as fast as some of the bigger bikes), it will handle trails, pump tracks etc. Its a jack of all trades that stops me going too lairy due it being an XC bike. You have bought a cracking bike that won't hold you back and will be able to do pretty much all that you throw at it.


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## Jody (21 Oct 2016)

rideswithmoobs said:


> I think at 41 I'm too old to be learning jumps & rollers



You would be surprised. Some of it isn't as hard as you imagine


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## rideswithmoobs (21 Oct 2016)

Jody said:


> You're over thinking it a little. I definitely don't think your bike is over kill and it always leaves you the option to go on harder trails. Its perfect for those type of trails pictured as its light, fast, comfy XC bike. The only issue with the other trail you were riding is isolation and being on your own, which is OK if you know and accept the risks.
> 
> As for buying the wrong bike, it's the same as why I bought the bike I did rather than go for a bigger hitting FS. Its comfy for all day riding on the railway paths/local woods which is 50+% of what I do, there is little in the peaks I can't ride on it (all be it not quite as fast as some of the bigger bikes), it will handle trails, pump tracks etc. Its a jack of all trades that stops me going too lairy due it being an XC bike. You have bought a cracking bike that won't hold you back and will be able to do pretty much all that you throw at it.



Thanks Jody, appreciate your reply. Your probably right I am over thinking it. Maybe years of riding roads the crossing to MTB is going to take some getting use to. It was the roads I took to get to the trail that had me thinking its over kill but then in winter with snow, and thick mud I would probably want the MTB more than a gravel bike. Either way the MTB is here now and I need to stop thinking and get use to riding


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## ChrisEyles (21 Oct 2016)

@rideswithmoobs cracking pic there. I know what you mean about being over-biked on occasion. I really having my rigid MTB to take on easy bridleway routes, it livens things up when the terrain isn't particularly challenging. At the end of the day though, it doesn't much matter which bike or which trails I'm riding, I always have a great time 

As far as solo riding goes for me it's OK to do as long as you think about the risks and mitigate those you can e.g. take a first aid kit, charged mobile, let someone know where you're going and when you'll be back, take a map or phone app so you can give a GPS if the sh!t really hits the fan and you need rescuing... and of course, ride a little more conservatively. 

At the other end of the spectrum of being sensible, learning to jump is also ace fun  and being able to manual/jump nasty drop-offs has even saved me once or twice when rolling them would probably have resulted in OTB


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## Big Dave laaa (22 Oct 2016)

50 year old with an 18 yo mentality here. Just perfected manualling after 25 years  i felt like a cycling god today front wheel up for about 30 yards on a downhill run. It'll end in tears i tell ya!


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## ChrisEyles (22 Oct 2016)

Thirty yards - nice!!! Right, that's going on my list of things to do by the time I'm 50  

Tried out some light gardening with Mrs Chris this afternoon since sitting on the sofa doing nothing is driving me nuts... operating secateurs is appartently still too much though and my elbow's killing! Grrrr... can't wait to heal up and get back on the bike.


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