# Protein Shakes



## onlineamiga (5 Jul 2010)

Hi, In a bid to get fitter and build my muscles up. I've been hearing about protein shakes. But a google shows that they dont actually do anything? So they seem a bit controversial.

Has anyone here had any experience with building muscle power up and ability with these shakes? Like promax etc? What would you recommend?


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## andygates (5 Jul 2010)

Protein shakes help you get quick, convenient protein into your diet - that's all. They're not a performance-enhancing drug  If you train to muscular fatigue -- weights, or hard hill attacks, or running speedwork, say -- then protein immediately after training is good. Shakes are (for some people) easier to manage than a tuna sandwich. I get mine from myprotein.co.uk, 'cos they're cheap and good.


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## battered (5 Jul 2010)

Eat a decent balanced diet. Avoid sugary junk, avoid fatty food, keep the booze down, ensure you have plenty of leafy veg and fruit and you don't need any fancy supplements. A glass of milk and a banana after training will do you more good than some chocolate flavour whey powder concoction. 

There may be a case for specialist nutrition for Tour De Fr boys, but they are into a bit more than the odd milk shake.


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## Globalti (5 Jul 2010)

Ask Lance!


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## GrasB (5 Jul 2010)

A protein shake simply gives you a decent protein hit in a relatively low calorie package & if you add a few other things in you have a recovery shake. You can do almost as well with basic food stuffs but ultimately a well made recovery shake will do a better job. As battered pointed out you can do worse than a glass of milk & a banana but also you can do better for not that much more.


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## BSRU (5 Jul 2010)

Avoid the cheap ones as they tend to have an artificial sweetener called phenylalanine or aspartame known for it's laxative effects and many other potential side effects. I drink protein drinks, a good way of obtaining extra animal protein, I picked up the habit when I used to swim 5000 metres five times a week, it makes a huge difference to how I feel the next day. Optimum gold standard is a good quality powder to mix with milk.

Lack of protein will result in feeling like you have a cold/flu.


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## Rob3rt (5 Jul 2010)

They are ofc good if used right, but they wont give you anything food wont, its just a matter of convenience and what you can stomach after a hard session. I know sometimes after a hard run I can barely stomach a drink of water never mind food. I force half a pint of milk as soon as I get home, then another half pint after showering.

Ive been reading some stuff on running by Matt Fitzgerald (Im going to try his Brain Training Plan for running and supplement it with cycling) and he talks about some research into using 4:1 ratio carbohydrate to protein supplements during hard sessions increasing your recovery meaning if you train every day that you will go into the next workout better recovered. But he also details some downsides such as it is good to go into some training sessions in a fatigued state. There is a load of science talk, I dont fully understand this so I wont pretend I do. But its something to think about.


BTW make sure you understand the difference between weight gain formula's, protein supplements and recovery formula's. They all have different ratio's and calorific contents intended for the given purpose. From memory, because I cba to google, isnt Promax a weight gain formulation for body builders?


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## hotmetal (6 Jul 2010)

BSRU said:


> I picked up the habit when I used to swim 5000 metres five times a week, it makes a huge difference to how I feel the next day.



Strewth! How far?! I thought I was a half decent swimmer cos I occasionally do 2500m in one go, erm, every now and then. You were doing 200 lengths every day?! 

Interesting to note that you found the protein shakes effective. I've not done such serious training as that, and I tend to stick to the oats/bananas/choloclate milk routine, but that's partially cos I also get confused about which powders are supposed to do what. For what I do, I almost feel a 'fraud' bothering with electrolyte powder but in this heat I find them pretty helpful.


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## ASC1951 (6 Jul 2010)

battered said:


> Eat a decent balanced diet. Avoid sugary junk, avoid fatty food, keep the booze down, ensure you have plenty of leafy veg and fruit and you don't need any fancy supplements.


Spot on, Battered. No-one will believe you, unfortunately, because there is a £billion industry devoted to persuading us all to double the cost of our urine.


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## BSRU (6 Jul 2010)

hotmetal said:


> Strewth! How far?! I thought I was a half decent swimmer cos I occasionally do 2500m in one go, erm, every now and then. You were doing 200 lengths every day?!



5000m is quite a straight forward distance, takes a few months to build upto it, but eating very well and drinking lots of liquid helps an awful lot. I bought good quality books on sports nutrition and swimming to ensure I had no problems. 
A competition swimmer would swim a lot more than 200 lengths a day, normally at least 40 to 50k a week.
For most people the problem is boredom but not for me for some reason.
I was surprised to find out 5000m is considered the marathon event for swimmers. I did have to stop a couple of times for a drink and the toilet.


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## andygates (6 Jul 2010)

"artificial sweetener called phenylalanine or aspartame known for it's laxative effects and many other potential side effects."

FUD. Cite evidence pls. You'll note the _lack _of Diet Coke drinkers exploding into giblets as my evidence that it's not eeebil.


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## onlineamiga (6 Jul 2010)

Hi thanks for the useful information on these. So I guess what I need to know is. If doing long hard daily cycle rides. Whats the best stuff to be eating and drinking? To encourage muscle strength and quick recovery?


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## Rob3rt (6 Jul 2010)

onlineamiga said:


> Hi thanks for the useful information on these. So I guess what I need to know is. If doing long hard daily cycle rides. Whats the best stuff to be eating and drinking? To encourage muscle strength and quick recovery?



Milk! Within 20-60 mins of getting home.

And consume carbs as you ride, maybe a little protein since there has apparently been some research showing that 1 part protein to 4 parts carb during exercise has a greater recovery boosting effect than carbs alone.


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## Rob3rt (6 Jul 2010)

andygates said:


> "artificial sweetener called phenylalanine or aspartame known for it's laxative effects and many other potential side effects."
> 
> FUD. Cite evidence pls. You'll note the _lack _of Diet Coke drinkers exploding into giblets as my evidence that it's not eeebil.



There is a lots of research into aspartame etc. Some commonly accepted conclusions and some hotly debated conclusions.

I cba to look up references right now, since Im busy looking up references for my own research atm. But there will be many many out there.


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## vorsprung (6 Jul 2010)

You'd probably get better results from using a glucose polymer drink or similar high carbohydrate product after hard training

I'm using this

http://www.allsports-online.co.uk/allsports.cgi?name=Amino Load

It apparently has a load of magic amino acids..which is kind of like predigested protein..but the product contains a load of carbs too.

All Sports claim that the idea behind this product is that after training the carbs will get more readily absorbed into the muscles and will carry the amino acids with them, with happy results. I have no idea if this is what is happening but it tastes nice and my legs seem to ache less the next day when I use it


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## GrasB (6 Jul 2010)

onlineamiga said:


> Hi thanks for the useful information on these. So I guess what I need to know is. If doing long hard daily cycle rides. Whats the best stuff to be eating and drinking? To encourage muscle strength and quick recovery?


What works best for me after a hard ride is a home made thick soup () which has been loaded with additional protein, currently trying pre-digested whey protein but I'm still experimenting. This brings my recovery time down & also reduces fatigue over a weeks worth of commutes.


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## Rob3rt (6 Jul 2010)

GrasB said:


> What works best for me after a hard ride is a home made thick soup () which has been loaded with additional protein, currently trying pre-digested whey protein but I'm still experimenting. This brings my recovery time down & also reduces fatigue over a weeks worth of commutes.



You are cooking whey protein? As far as I know this de-natures it rendering it a massive waste of money.

Only from what I recall reading back in my rugby days, i.e. about 5 years ago!


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## Riverman (6 Jul 2010)

> or aspartame



mmm aspartame.  Consume it everyday, I'm not sure I believe all the controversy surrounding it but probably shouldn't consume so much. I almost have a years supply of robinsons special R in my house.

I do see aspartame as abit of a trade off. I hate drinking water, it makes me feel sick. If I were to drink sugary drinks everyday, I'd become obese which is not good for my health at all.


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## GrasB (6 Jul 2010)

Rob3rt said:


> You are cooking whey protein? As far as I know this de-natures it rendering it a massive waste of money.


No, make the soup then mix in when cold (I like cold soup )


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## battered (6 Jul 2010)

vorsprung said:


> I'm using this
> 
> http://www.allsports-online.co.uk/allsports.cgi?name=Amino Load
> 
> It apparently has a load of magic amino acids..which is kind of like predigested protein..but the product contains a load of carbs too.


It contains very little protein, less than 2%. There's more in a glass of milk. It has a lot of carbohydrate, but so does a biscuit.


> All Sports claim that the idea behind this product is that after training the carbs will get more readily absorbed into the muscles and will carry the amino acids with them


Usual unsubstantiated quasi-medical sales bollocks. Disregard. 



> . I have no idea if this is what is happening but it tastes nice and my legs seem to ache less the next day when I use it


Which is all that counts.


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## battered (6 Jul 2010)

Re denaturing whey protein, it will already be denatured as a result of spray drying. Denatured or not, your digestive system won't care a toss, it will digest it anyway into amino acids. If it needs them to build tissue, it will, if not it will burn them. Just like any other protein.


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## Rob3rt (6 Jul 2010)

To my understanding many whey products are sold as un-denatured. Also doesnt undenatured offer greater biological benefit?

If you are taking supplements and paying a premium for it on top of your food expenses you would surely want to gain every last little advantage possible from them.


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## battered (6 Jul 2010)

Have a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_(biochemistry)

You can't dry a protein while maintaining its secondary and tertiary structure, therefore it will be denatured by the action of drying.

Any protein has to be digested by chopping it into its component amino acids. These can then cross the gut wall. Full proteins cannot.


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## Rob3rt (6 Jul 2010)

http://ezinearticles.com/?Undenatured-Whey-Protein---Defined&id=586858

You can apparently reverse the process too, I read it somewhere earlier, dont know how credible the source was though.

edit: the source was the wiki page you linked, i read that page earlier this afternoon.


Im an Electronic Engineer/Plant/Soil science researcher, not a biologist or nutrition guru so I dont know much about this topic to be honest.  Interesting discussion


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## Alun (7 Jul 2010)

I recommend a pint of denatured Guinness, and a packet of previously undigested cheese and onion crisps.


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## battered (7 Jul 2010)

Probably do you just as much good as a reconstituted whey powder milk shake!

Back to denaturation.

It may be reversible. Whey protein is pretty tough stuff, it's very inert with low functionality. That's why it's still intact after cheesemaking and stays in solution while the caseins solidify, drop out of solution and start turning into cheese.

The thing is that when it's dry it will be denatured. Can't be otherwise. If it comes back on rehydration then that's going to happen anyway, it's not as if our drinks powder manufacturer has done anythging clever. It is in that case a bit like a veg processor turning up a low fat lettuce or crunchy celery. They all are mate, already.

Further to this and on the subject of digestion, so what if it *is* denatured? It's got to be digested anyway and as soon as that happens the proteins will denature immediately they start getting chopped up. Milk caseins will curdle (denature) the minute they hit the stomach asa result of the acid content.

If you look at eggs, a cooked egg is denatured protein. It's irreversible, once it's set, that's it. The difference in nutrition value is zero, it's all still there. So unless there is a difference in digestion rate (doubtful by the time it's been in stomach juices) then it's identical. Certainly any stuff about carbohydrates carrying proteins into the muscles where they are needed is utter, utter bollocks. Frankly I don't know how the manufacturers get away with claims like that, it's an infringement of the food labelling regs.


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## BSRU (7 Jul 2010)

Riverman said:


> mmm aspartame.  Consume it everyday, I'm not sure I believe all the controversy surrounding it but probably shouldn't consume so much. I almost have a years supply of robinsons special R in my house.
> 
> I do see aspartame as abit of a trade off. I hate drinking water, it makes me feel sick. If I were to drink sugary drinks everyday, I'd become obese which is not good for my health at all.



I think the amount you drink is important and there are other sweeteners with supposedly less potential side effects. For me I avoid aspartame because it gives me a guaranteed headache, thanfully Sainsbury's has stopped using it their fizzy pop drinks.

I friend of mine in the pharmaceutical industry has told me that when they want to test anti-diarrhoea tablets they use phenylalanine to recreate the diarrhoea as it always produces consistent and predictable results.


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## BSRU (7 Jul 2010)

andygates said:


> "artificial sweetener called phenylalanine or aspartame known for it's laxative effects and many other potential side effects."
> 
> FUD. Cite evidence pls. You'll note the _lack _of Diet Coke drinkers exploding into giblets as my evidence that it's not eeebil.



Just One Side Effect Taken From an FDA submission:-
Aspartame Ingestion Causes Formaldehyde Accumulation in the Body
Excerpt from:

Trocho, C., et al., 1998. "Formaldehyde Derived From Dietary Aspartame
Vinds to Tissue Components in vivo," Life Sciences, Vol. 63, No. 5, pp.
337+, 1998


"These are indeed extremely high levels for adducts of formaldehyde, a
substance responsible for chronic deleterious effects that has also been
considered carcinogenic.
....
"It is concluded that aspartame consumption may constitute a hazard
because of its contribution to the formation of formaldehyde adducts."


"It was a very interesting paper, that demonstrates that formaldehyde
formation from aspartame ingestion is very common and does indeed
accumulate within the cell, reacting with cellular proteins (mostly
enzymes) and DNA (both mitochondrial and nuclear). The fact that it
accumulates with each dose, indicates grave consequences among those who
consume diet drinks and foodstuffs on a daily basis." (Neuroscientist

Russell Blaylock, MD)


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## battered (7 Jul 2010)

Phenylalanine is an amino acid, a nutrient. If it has a laxative effect it's probably an osmotic effect. AFAIK Phe is one of the essential AAs for humans, as in you die without it.


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## Hont (8 Jul 2010)

To the OP; as you can see there's a lot of information and opinion on what to do and not what to do, what works and what's just marketing guff. Personally I use Rego so if there is any science behind it I'm alright. If it is all nonsense then I still have a tasty drink with all the carbs and protein that you get from the milk and banana route plus a few extra vitamins for around 80p a portion (which isn't much more than a pint of milk + a banana anyway).

I can't state categorically that it helps me recover as I'm not measuring myself in a scientific way, but I have suffered far fewer colds and illness since starting on it and don't cannibalise my upper body muscle in the same way as I used to without it.


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## navrat_biker (18 Jul 2010)

How protein shakes help us road riders?

Well as you probably already know protein helps our muscles to not only develop strong and lean but also one of the most important stages for us is recovery. After a long ride your muscles (like mine do) scream out for replacement minerals, hydration and protein sources. Now if your body doesn't have a sufficient amount of protein in your system then the body will use the muscles as protein. This is especially the case during the night when your muscles are developing/repairing from the days training. It is therefore vital that we consume a sufficient amount of protein and protein shakes are ideal for this.

Why?

Well they are tailored to this type of conditioning. I always consume protein after training as a protein shake intake and if your thinking well surely this will add weight/mass. wrong? the difference you will see is strength of muscle and a leaner physique over time. I am 5ft 10 and have a waist to thigh ratio of 81.5%

So whats the best Protein for us riders?

A good quality Whey Protein (for more info see this article)

By in taking a protein shake into your training you will see huge benefits and reduction in recovery. As a result of stronger/conditioned muscle your speed and strength will increase and you will wonder why you didn't do this sooner.

Any help/advice just get in touch


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## Fab Foodie (18 Jul 2010)

To be honest for most of us mere mortals Choco-milk or a regular Nesquick style milkshake will provide us with more than enough 'recovery' nutriment. Milk alone has been found to be one of the best re-hydrating products. If you think aout what nmilk is designed for... growth, then it seems pretty sensible.

To jump in with both feet on the Whey protein debate... as said correctly, the whey protein will become denatured by processing which may affect the rate at which it is broken down to smaller peptides. I don't know if denaturing speeds-up the breakdown of whey proteins in the gut. What I do know is that if you hydrolyse whey protein (pre-digest by acid or enzyme) into shorter peptides it does get absorbed by the body more quickly. The problem with shorter chain whey protein fragments is that the taste bloody awful (bitter).

http://www.dsm.com/le/en_US/peptopro/html/home_peptopro.htm


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## accountantpete (18 Jul 2010)

Check out MyProtein - you can get 5kg of Whey protein for £39 posted. 


My link


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