# big frame short stem vs. small frame long stem



## Mobi8 (4 Dec 2013)

Having a bit of a break down here. 

I just bought a bike with a large frame and after riding it i have had bad back and triceps pain. I'm putting this down to my reach being too long.

Now, do I get a shorter stem on my large frame? Or get the frame a size smaller frame with a longer stem? 

Has any one else had trouble with their reach? any advice is much appreciated


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## midliferider (4 Dec 2013)

what is your bike?


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## Mobi8 (4 Dec 2013)

Giant Tcr Composite 2


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## snailracer (4 Dec 2013)

Considered toe overlap?


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## midliferider (4 Dec 2013)

What size did you buy? What is your height?
Do you think you can still change it?


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## biggs682 (4 Dec 2013)

how long is exsisting stem ?


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## steveindenmark (4 Dec 2013)

I got a shorter stem and then turned it udside down which also lifted the bars higher as well as bringing them closer.

Steve


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## Mr Haematocrit (4 Dec 2013)

I personally prefer smaller bikes, I'm right on the cusp of kids bikes and medium and I always take the smaller frame which works well for me.


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## Kies (4 Dec 2013)

I found the medium Sirrus too cramped and went for the large. After a few weeks, i felt stretched out even with the stem flipped. The answer came in a 60mm stem. perfect


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## slowmotion (4 Dec 2013)

If (1) the toe of your shoes clear the wheel when it's being steered in any direction, and (2) you can adjust the fore-aft position of the saddle relative to the pedal axle to suit your knee position when the crank is fully forward, you can pretty much sort out any reach/body angle position with your choice of stem and steerer tube spacers.

I very recently started riding a bike that is slightly smaller ( 2 cm frame size less) than my previous one, but which has exactly the same riding position due to saddle and stem adjustments. It feels a lot more frisky and fun.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Dec 2013)

Mobi8 said:


> Having a bit of a break down here.
> 
> I just bought a bike with a large frame and after riding it i have had bad back and triceps pain. I'm putting this down to my reach being too long.
> 
> ...


Really you're going to need to ride the smaller frame first. There is only so much adjustment that can be done with stems, yet none at all can be done to top tube length (a major often forgotten factor of bike sizing)

The difference in my 56 and 54 cm frames is actually only 11mm, but if that 11mm is ultimately the cause of pain, no stem in the world will cure the fact the bike is too big.


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## Mobi8 (5 Dec 2013)

Thanks everyone for your advice. It sounds like it is easier to make a small bike "bigger" than a big bike "smaller".

So I think the more sensible option is to go with the smaller frame? Just one last question, what are the repercussions of riding a smaller frame, if any?

Thanks again!


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Dec 2013)

depends how smaller the frame is really. The next size down on my model of road bike drops to a 650c wheel base which was not what I wanted. But on my mtb dropping to the smaller frame meant I had to purchase a longer seat post because I could not raise it high enough to get to the right leg length.


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

Mobi8 said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice. It sounds like it is easier to make a small bike "bigger" than a big bike "smaller"....


Maybe, but there is very little you can do about toe clearance to the front tyre, even worse if you put a mudguard on it. I would check for toe overlap first.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Dec 2013)

Overlap is really only an issue at low-no speed. Takes very little wheel movment to turn a bike, and even if turning a sharp corner, your outside foot really should be firmly planted bottom of pedal stroke anyway.


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## Rob3rt (5 Dec 2013)

snailracer said:


> Maybe, but there is very little you can do about toe clearance to the front tyre, even worse if you put a mudguard on it. I would check for toe overlap first.



Toe overlap is a none issue really unless it is very bad.


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## Kestevan (5 Dec 2013)

I think it can also depend on your body type, and the type of bike. For example I have a long body/arms and comparatively short legs. On the road bike I found I was much more comfortable with a larger frame and short seatpost/stem as this gave me the required reach to the bars. 
Conversely on the MTB I swapped to a smaller frame, with longer seat post and stem. On a larger frame the clearance between top-tube and Gentlemans area was too close for comfort.

However in both cases I was "between sizes" and either would have done at a pinch.


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Overlap is really only an issue at low-no speed. Takes very little wheel movment to turn a bike, and even if turning a sharp corner, your outside foot really should be firmly planted bottom of pedal stroke anyway.


It might not be an issue for you and the type of riding you do, but this is the beginner's section and I can't really tell what sort of riding the OP plans to do.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Dec 2013)

snailracer said:


> It might not be an issue for you and the type of riding you do, but this is the beginner's section and I can't really tell what sort of riding the OP plans to do.


Bare in mind that cycles turn largely by leaning, what could you possibly be doing that scuffing your shoe on a tyre or mudguard is an issue?


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Bare in mind that cycles turn largely by leaning, what could you possibly be doing that scuffing your shoe on a tyre or mudguard is an issue?


A slight scuff is harmless enough, but I have seen feet coming off pedals due to catching on the front tyre. I have seen people toppling over as they have tried to pedal slowly between stationary cars and gate posts but their toes have prevented the front wheel from turning far enough. So it can catch riders out if they are not careful or their routes involve riding slowly around obstacles.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Dec 2013)

snailracer said:


> A slight scuff is harmless enough, but I have seen feet coming off pedals due to catching on the front tyre. I have seen people toppling over as they have tried to pedal slowly between stationary cars and gate posts but their toes have prevented the front wheel from turning far enough. So it can catch riders out if they are not careful or their routes involve riding slowly around obstacles.


Would that be the "slow - no speed" bit I mentioned? But thats really a rider awareness problem than one with bike size.


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Would that be the "slow - no speed" bit I mentioned? But thats really a rider awareness problem than one with bike size.


Yes, but I would prefer that my bike does not "catch me out" when I am knackered near the end of a commute home.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Bare in mind that cycles turn largely by leaning, what could you possibly be doing that scuffing your shoe on a tyre or mudguard is an issue?


turning into a (single track) side road on a road covered in wet leaves in autumn/winter? 
I catch mine all the time - drives me batty.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Dec 2013)

snailracer said:


> Yes, but I would prefer that my bike does not "catch me out" when I am knackered near the end of a commute home.


You must have some commute if you can't tell the which foot is right or left by the end of it.. 

The nonsense on this forum is premium quality


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> You must have some commute if you can't tell the which foot is right or left by the end of it..
> 
> The nonsense on this forum is premium quality


I do.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (5 Dec 2013)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> turning into a (single track) side road on a road covered in wet leaves in autumn/winter?
> I catch mine all the time - drives me batty.


Why are your feet forward enough to catch?


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Why are your feet forward enough to catch?


Cos the frame is a bit small, perchance?


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Dec 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


> Why are your feet forward enough to catch?


can't lean into the corner at all, totally blind entrance and I can only 'land' on one side due to being slightly paralysed. Always catch the 'good leg' in the wrong place on that junction (which regretfully happens to be the turn into my dead-end lane)... can't freewheel into the corner because you need to be very slow due to it being totally blind entrance and also that coating of leaves which is getting a fresh layer of water as we speak! and getting off and walking it is not an option either - no footpaths or anything else to bail to, so can only cycle to an almost complete halt and then pedal around the corner slowly when you know it is clear (left hand bend)

Edit: only happens on my road bike - no issue with my mountain bike or my touring bike and the road bike is the only 'compact' frame bike.


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## vickster (5 Dec 2013)

A too large bike gave me chronic tennis elbow, a year of pain, physio, injections and treatment and 2 operations...on that basis, I'd always go smaller


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> ...
> Edit: only happens on my road bike - no issue with my mountain bike or my touring bike and the road bike is the only 'compact' frame bike.


Toe overlap is generally considered unacceptable on pretty much every type of bike apart from road bikes and track bikes.


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

vickster said:


> A too large bike gave me chronic tennis elbow, a year of pain, physio, injections and treatment and 2 operations...on that basis, I'd always go smaller


Well one of my riding buddies fell when he attempted to steer around a gate post, but couldn't because his toe blocked his front wheel. He broke his shoulder and gouged a chunk out of his rib.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (5 Dec 2013)

snailracer said:


> Toe overlap is generally considered unacceptable on pretty much every type of bike apart from road bikes and track bikes.


seriously wishing I still had my first road bike - that old BSA racer of mine did not have the same issue... perhaps I shall have to renovate a bike and not declare it to my OH... n+1 = 4 could be pushing my luck too far!


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## vickster (5 Dec 2013)

snailracer said:


> Well one of my riding buddies fell when he attempted to steer around a gate post, but couldn't because his toe blocked his front wheel. He broke his shoulder and gouged a chunk out of his rib.


 Ouch

I have been known to catch my clompy shoes on the mudguard when positioning to turn at a junction, can be a pain! However, I still wouldn't want to be stretched out on a bigger bike


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## snailracer (5 Dec 2013)

vickster said:


> Ouch
> 
> I have been known to catch my clompy shoes on the mudguard when positioning to turn at a junction, can be a pain! However, I still wouldn't want to be stretched out on a bigger bike


Of course, in the old days, the best reason for not choosing an oversized frame was to avoid crunching your groin on the top tube :O


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## DooDah (5 Dec 2013)

Personally, I am usually right between a small and medium frame (depending on the manufacturer). I prefer to go for the medium and reduce the stem length. Just feels more comfortable for me. I guess everyone is different.


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## slowmotion (6 Dec 2013)

Toe overlap may not be important on TdF, but it is if you commute in busy traffic. I don't want to be waiting at a set of red lights (oops, sorry) with the bars at a wonky angle, and then find I can't straighten them when they go green because I happen to have the cranks horizontal.
I'm a recent convert to "smaller is better". Ride a pony, not a horse.

BTW, what are these "mudguards" of which you speak?


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## e-rider (6 Dec 2013)

Mobi8 said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice. It sounds like it is easier to make a small bike "bigger" than a big bike "smaller".
> 
> So I think the more sensible option is to go with the smaller frame? Just one last question, what are the repercussions of riding a smaller frame, if any?
> 
> Thanks again!


get a bike that fits
don't buy the bike if it's too big or too small - simple
Note: a small change to stem length (1cm) can make a big difference to comfort. Changing the stem by 3cm will make it feel like a different bike completely.
I personally absolutely hate small bikes, with seatpost on limit line and 140mm stem fitted! .


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## snailracer (6 Dec 2013)

e-rider said:


> *get a bike that fits*
> don't buy the bike if it's too big or too small - simple
> Note: a small change to stem length (1cm) can make a big difference to comfort. Changing the stem by 3cm will make it feel like a different bike completely.
> I personally absolutely hate small bikes, with seatpost on limit line and 140mm stem fitted! .


What excellent advice - no falling off or extra "awareness" required.


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## snailracer (7 Dec 2013)

User13710 said:


> That's fine if you are the standard size that bike manufacturers work to - an average-sized bloke in other words. If you are a small woman, and you also have various complicating factors such as a clavicle plate on one side, you have to get as close to a good fit as you can (and at a price you can manage), and work with that.


I know a rider who has an unusually big foot (on one side ) - she switched to riding a shopping bike, no toe overlap issues with a 20" wheels!


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## slowmotion (7 Dec 2013)

User13710 said:


> A bit more awareness needed (and fewer 'wonky angles')?
> My road bike is a very compact frame because I am a short person, and it has a large degree of toe overlap. It only caught me out once, the first time I ever rode the bike, but now I know about it I make allowances for it. This seems rather like those people who are always forgetting they're clipped in and falling over - surely you only do that once, then you know to be mindful of it? Or do you always bang your head on the same low beam?


 I have fallen over clipless about five times in the last three years. Although not particularly tall, I have bashed my head on strange beams that I really should have remembered, but didn't. 

Why would I wish to add this toe overlap stuff? I don't need the extra excitement.


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## snailracer (7 Dec 2013)

User13710 said:


> OK Slowmo, sorry to hear you've been so accident prone, but that wasn't my point. Luckily for you, you are one of those average height blokes I mentioned earlier and you're also, how can I put this, not poor. So you have lots of choice and can find a bike with no toe overlap if it worries you so much. My post was aimed at those who might have less choice for one reason or another, to reassure them that if they find a bike that fits quite well, but has a bit of toe overlap, they shouldn't worry too much about it. And @snailracer, they don't need to resort to a shopping bike if that's not what they really want.


A combination of shorter/higher stem and different bars can make a large frame fit. A longer/lower stem and different bars can make a small frame fit. There is not much you can do to eliminate toe overlap, which is more likely to be present on a small frame. Which is why, if there is no right-size frame, I suggested the larger frame would be preferable. Sure, toe overlap is, for most riders, a minor issue and not a deal-breaker, but it would still be desirable to avoid it and the larger frame gives riders more scope to do so.


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## slowmotion (8 Dec 2013)

User13710 said:


> OK Slowmo, sorry to hear you've been so accident prone, but that wasn't my point. Luckily for you, you are one of those average height blokes I mentioned earlier and you're also, how can I put this, not poor.


I would be delighted to disabuse you of your massive misapprehension. I will bring my last five years' P60s to The Stage Door on the 20th. Bring yours, why not?


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