# Which bike/fork and why?



## lulubel (23 Sep 2012)

I have a fairly flexible budget for the new MTB, although (like everyone) I want to get as much bike as I can while spending as little money as possible, so I have a number of possibilities (in order of price, lowest to highest):

Canyon Yellowstone 5.0W
Giant Arete
Canyon Grand Canyon AL 7.0W

The first one falls into "sensible amount to pay for a bike" category, but it has Rock Shox Recon forks (I wanted Reba). It's also 12.5kg, which is only 1kg lighter than my current bike, and since it has much more expensive kit on it, I'm guessing the frame is pretty heavy. But it's nice and small - 550mm top tube in the XS size.

The 3rd one (I'll stick with Canyon for now) is the most expensive and a bit "ouch". It has DT Swiss XRM 100 forks, which I've never heard of, but presumably they're good at that price. It's light, it's got nice kit on it, but the frame size is a bit bigger than the Yellowstone - 565mm top tube in XS. (I really wanted the AL 6.0, which I think is the same frame, but they don't have a women's version of it, so it's only available down to the S frame size, which will definitely be too big for me.)

The Giant is the bike I would build if I was building it myself. It's small - 540mm top tube - it has Reba forks, the chainrings and cassette are exactly what I'd choose, and a saddle that I probably won't have to change (I don't get on with Selle Italia). But I can only buy it from a UK retailer, which means I will need an acceptable UK payment method, and my accident compensation is in Euros in Spain (and I don't have a Spanish credit card). Basically, this will delay things rather a lot, and I'm seriously lacking in patience.

The other option would be to build something up around a (possibly Kinesis) frame, but I know from experience that I'd end up spending at least £900 if I did that, and it would take me as long as getting the Giant would.

Any thoughts?

The Yellowstone is obviously lower spec than the others, but it's also significantly cheaper. Will I notice much difference in how it rides compared to the more expensive bikes? (I took my OH's MTB out today, even though it's a bit big for me, to see how the unused forks felt, and the difference between my cheap, knackered forks and her cheap, not-knackered forks was like night and day. Having done a bit of MTBing now, I would have prefered something more subtle, though - if subtle is a good choice of word.)

How do the Grand Canyon I linked to and the Giant compare in terms of spec?  Obviously, the Giant was a lot more expensive at full price, but I know Canyons are very highly specced for the money.

My gut is telling me to wait and get the Giant (and hope it stays in stock), but it would be good to hear other people's views.


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## Cubist (23 Sep 2012)

You've been doing some research!

Three main considerations here from an outsider's point of view. 

That Yellowstone is "heavy" because of the crankset and wheels. The fork is good, but as you say, not a patch on the Reba. There's nothing wrong with the frame. You could buy it and upgrade it to the spec you want, ie swap the fork for a Reba if you really can't get on with it, and upgrade the crankset to SLX. The Reba fork can be had for £200 or so if you shop around, and a 9 speed SLX chainset will cost you about £90 from hibike/actionsports etc etc. You'd get just under half of that back by reselling the Recon and the Deore crankset. Seems like a bit of buggering about, but worth it if the frame is what you need and what suits you. I suspect though that you have tried to go for "sensible" which the Yellowstone is, but you think there's better out there for your needs and wants. 

The Grand Canyon is lovely. Seriously lovely, and that fork is great. It has singleshot damping, so although it's light and bling, it won't be quite as tuneable as a Reba. The rest of the spec is great, and the sub11kg weight is pretty competitive. Brakes, wheels and drivetrain are all quality kit. 

The Giant ticks all of your boxes as you've said. The downside is the wait, but otherwise I reckon you'd have pressed the button by now. The spec is great (with the exception of the wheels.... I don't like Deore hubs, no excuse for cup and cone in this day and age!!!!) Another reason I think you haven't bought it yet is because it doesn't feel very "lulubel" , it's a wee bit too mainstream.

How about the fourth way? Buy the giant, strip it of its parts and stick them on a Maxlight frame. Longwinded, but you get the bike you want, with the pleasure and reward of building it yourself, and you can save up for a bling wheelset (did someone say Hope Pro11 on Stans crest rims???)

Spec up a Kinesis, based on £275 frame, £200 fork, £200 SLX 3x10 groupset, £110 slx brakes, Superstar wheelset £200, headset, bars seatpost, stem, .... sorry, can't do it as cheaply as using the Giant as a donor.


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## RecordAceFromNew (24 Sep 2012)

Actually I don't like the Giant. It has heavy wheels and tyres. I would be surprised if it doesn't weigh the same if not more than 12.5kg, which might be a bit disappointing if you have to spend 900 notes for it. Additionally IME Giants don't usually have 27.2mm seatposts, so don't count on using that either on a Maxlight. IMHO it is not going to be a satisfactory donor.

For transplants (which I agree could make economic sense as Cubist rightly suggested) it is always worth comparing head tube length in case you are forced to end up having lower bars at best and running out of steerer at worst. The same goes for chain stay length with respect to chain length. It is also worth checking seat tube diameter. A 31.8mm front mech might not go on a 34.9mm seat tube.

Because the Giant is obsolete, it could be a bit hard to find some specific dimensions.

Personally I wouldn't worry about the groupset level too much. Wheels, tyres and forks will have greater "ride" return on £ invested, but most important of all it has to fit, so it is worth checking dimensions carefully with what you already have if you have to buy online.


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## lulubel (24 Sep 2012)

All good comments, guys, and lots of interesting points. A couple of specific things ....



Cubist said:


> The Giant ticks all of your boxes as you've said. The downside is the wait, but otherwise I reckon you'd have pressed the button by now. The spec is great (with the exception of the wheels.... I don't like Deore hubs, no excuse for cup and cone in this day and age!!!!)


 
I really don't care about the wheels. I probably should because I'm paying for them, but I don't because they're the easiest upgrade and one of the most noticeable changes. Plus, my understanding is that, with probably a few exceptions, manufacturers don't put wheels on their bikes that match the standard of the rest of the components. Basically, I expect to destroy the stock wheels and then replace them, and if I don't, I'm pleasantly surprised.



RecordAceFromNew said:


> Actually I don't like the Giant. It has heavy wheels and tyres. I would be surprised if it doesn't weigh the same if not more than 12.5kg, which might be a bit disappointing if you have to spend 900 notes for it. Additionally IME Giants don't usually have 27.2mm seatposts, so don't count on using that either on a Maxlight. IMHO it is not going to be a satisfactory donor.


 
Useful, thanks. I was never really thinking of the Giant as a donor, but there was always a question mark over it because Giant refuse to tell buyers how much their bikes weigh. (Although weight definitely isn't everything. The Surly is 700g heavier than my old Trek, and I saw an increase of 1.5mph on my average speeds from the day I first sat on it.)

So .... I've been doing some more research and reading, and I'm going to throw another spanner in the works. Should I think about a full suss? I know I'd be looking at more money (the difference between the Grand Canyon and the equivalent Nerve XC is about £350), but if I'm spending nearly a grand in the first place, I'd rather spend a bit more if that's what I have to do to get the right bike.

My reasons for asking this are because a full suss is suggested in the book GregCollins recommended in my "Falling Off" thread, for everything but the smoothest trails, and also I've noticed there seem to be quite a few women on another forum switching from HT to FS and saying they handle much better over the rough stuff and are much more confidence inspiring on the descents. I'm always going to be a cautious descender - I'm the same on the road - so I figure I need all the help I can get! I am aware that FS saps your power on the climbs, but MTBing has already encouraged me to develop a more efficient pedalling technique, and for around £1300 I can get a FS that's significantly lighter than my current HT, so I can't imagine climbing will feel any harder.


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## GrumpyGregry (24 Sep 2012)

Canyon Nerve XC's are love-er-ly bikes. boing-boing.

Though in all seriousness I've not gone further than the local woods on mine yet.

And I can't imagine a world in which I wouldn't own and ride a racy HT XC-er....

As to patience and the Giant. Can't you get someone in here to do the deal for you and ship you the bike?


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## Cubist (24 Sep 2012)

Another possibility! To be fair, a full-suss bike was a real revelation to me. I came from a racy hardtail that was nervous and clattery on descents, onto a FS 140mm travel susser, and the difference in confidence was enormous. I've got another slacker hardtail now, but if I was forced to own just one off road bike I would have to go FS, simply because sometimes I want the bike to do a bit of the work.

Given the sort of riding you have described, I think the Nerve XC would be a great idea. It has everything you have listed in terms of kit, (there is precious little difference betwen Reba and SID these days, if anything SID are racier).

11.95 kg is astonishing, and the XS frame option is there. In terms of VFM it's the best on the table so far. And you can pay in euros.

Are you the kind of girl who'd choose rawberry, given the colour of that rocker arm???


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## RecordAceFromNew (24 Sep 2012)

I am pretty sure I have opined here for some time that I no longer see any point in owning a hardtail. My full susser is just over 11kg - it is not lighter only because I consider carbon mtb oxymoron for Joe Public like me. There are plenty of rear shocks with lockout nowadays, and if your's hasn't there is nothing to stop you upping the pressure before the ride if it is an air shock. If cost is not a big issue and you are not racing and you don't want/need a fleet it is imho the logical single mtb to have.


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## lulubel (24 Sep 2012)

Cubist said:


> Another possibility! To be fair, a full-suss bike was a real revelation to me. I came from a racy hardtail that was nervous and clattery on descents, onto a FS 140mm travel susser, and the difference in confidence was enormous. I've got another slacker hardtail now, but if I was forced to own just one off road bike I would have to go FS, simply because sometimes I want the bike to do a bit of the work.


 
Clattery is a really good word. I was trying to think of a word to describe how the back end of the bike was behaving yesterday once the front end felt more comfortable, and clattery is it. Once the fork was smoothing the bumps and rebounding nicely (well, rebounding with a bit too much enthusiasm, actually, but I put that down to my low weight), I started taking things a bit faster, and then I noticed the back wheel was going all over the place. I was in my best approximation of attack position - which probably needs work, but I'm improving - so I didn't have all my weight plonked on it like a sack of spuds, but the way it was behaving didn't feel terribly confidence inspiring.

If a FS means the back wheel will spend more time gripping the terrain rather than clattering over it, I think it will be worth the money.


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## Cubist (24 Sep 2012)

If the terrain is as you describe, then the added grip will be revelatory. Can I add skittish to the descriptors? 

I think you'll love the change over. Unless you want bragging rights on Halifax based websites, or want to race Xc, then there is no reason to favour a hardtail for leisure riding.


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## billflat12 (24 Sep 2012)

I know boardmans may not have the same appeal with some, but just look at vfm spec on these models below, maybe a simple change of bars&stem with a female specific seat.would help make these more female friendly for your budget .
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boardman-...1156448844?pt=UK_Bikes_GL&hash=item3a7a17464c
also "open to offers" a nice FS, Pro, (with reba,s.)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chris-Boa...1102760070?pt=UK_Bikes_GL&hash=item3ccaeff086


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## lulubel (24 Sep 2012)

billflat12 said:


> I know boardmans may not have the same appeal, but just look at the spec below, maybe a simple change of bars&stem with a female specific seat.would help make these female friendly for your budget .


 
Nice thought, but might be tricky to get them to Spain.



Cubist said:


> I think you'll love the change over. Unless you want bragging rights on Halifax based websites, or want to race Xc, then there is no reason to favour a hardtail for leisure riding.


 
I think I've been behind the times here for quite a while. Until very recently - yesterday, in fact - I was still living with the belief that a hardtail was the only choice for leisure riders, and you had to be a serious MTBer to ride a full suss. I really must try and keep up!


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## billflat12 (24 Sep 2012)

Full suspension keeps me out of trouble but "Hardtails are more fun" ,( as are older steel rigid mtb,s. but keeping a line,changing gear or braking with cati,s on a black run can be a challenge  ) hardtails are great for beginners simply because they have more feel ( ie.you instantly know what the back end gets up to.......... " usually a quality bike will feel great an handle well too")
leisure rides to me means fun , if you compete then you may need serious kit, overall try not to get too carried away , just be honest with yourself as to the type of riding you really want to do and try to demo / hire a few quality bikes first before you blow any budget .,


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## Cubist (24 Sep 2012)

I think Lulubel has discovered what her back end gets up to..... and could do with a bit more comfort!


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## lulubel (25 Sep 2012)

billflat12 said:


> leisure rides to me means fun , if you compete then you may need serious kit, overall try not to get too carried away , just be honest with yourself as to the type of riding you really want to do and try to demo / hire a few quality bikes first before you blow any budget .,


 
Fun (to me) means having control over the bike, so I can relax and enjoy the ride, rather than spending most of it thinking, "Oh sh1t, oh sh1t, oh sh1t, I'm going to die." I want to challenge myself, but the reward for challenging myself is getting through a tricky bit and feeling good about how I handled it rather than thinking, "Well, I'm still alive. Not sure how ...."

I googled MTBing in Spain last night, and one of the links was for a holiday company that covers this area. One of the descents I found most difficult (the one where I hesitated to a stop and toppled over!) is on their list of "black trails", so even if they're exaggerating the difficulty level rather, it's still no wonder I found it hard, and shows how I'll definitely benefit from a much better bike if I want to continue riding that trail (which I do because it's part of a lovely loop) and others like it.



Cubist said:


> I think Lulubel has discovered what her back end gets up to..... and could do with a bit more comfort!


 
Could do with a bit more padding, actually - padded shorts can only be so thick - but have no plans to put on weight to achieve it.

On that note, my knees have been really suffering lately. I was putting it down to them taking the brunt of the impact in February's crash, but they've been worse since I started MTBing, so using them as suspension can't be helping. Even if there was no other reason, I think that alone justifies the money spent on a full suss (especially since it will be paid for out of the money I've received to compensate me for my injuries).


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Sep 2012)

lulubel said:


> Fun (to me) means having control over the bike, so I can relax and enjoy the ride, rather than spending most of it thinking, *"Oh sh1t, oh sh1t, oh sh1t, I'm going to die."* I want to challenge myself, but the reward for challenging myself is getting through a tricky bit and feeling good about how I handled it rather than thinking, "Well, I'm still alive. Not sure how ...."


That won't change with FS, you'll just be travelling faster while you think it.

The last bit, the _"Well, I'm still alive. Not sure how ...."_ doesn't really count unless you wake up and think it from a hospital bed.


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## billflat12 (25 Sep 2012)

A quality hardtail will inspire your confidence , enabling you to relax and stay focus on the tasks ahead.
instead of thinking "Oh sh1t, oh sh1t, oh sh1t, I'm going to die." as to your knees i have arthritis in both mine from horse riding but it never stops me from enjoying my Fav bikes.
please just try a few proper bikes " trust me it will get to be more fun "


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## GrumpyGregry (25 Sep 2012)

billflat12 said:


> A quality hardtail will inspire your confidence , enabling you to relax and stay focus on the tasks ahead.
> instead of thinking "Oh sh1t, oh sh1t, oh sh1t, I'm going to die." as to your knees i have arthritis in both mine from horse riding but it never stops me from enjoying my Fav bikes.
> please just try a few proper bikes " trust me it will get to be more fun "


I ride a quality hardtail. I have done so for years.

On trails I don't know I often find myself thinking "OMFG I'm gonna die."


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## lulubel (25 Sep 2012)

billflat12 said:


> A quality hardtail will inspire your confidence , enabling you to relax and stay focus on the tasks ahead.
> instead of thinking "Oh sh1t, oh sh1t, oh sh1t, I'm going to die." as to your knees i have arthritis in both mine from horse riding but it never stops me from enjoying my Fav bikes.
> please just try a few proper bikes " trust me it will get to be more fun "


 
Bill, I do appreciate everyone's input, but I'm not sure that you fully understand my situation.

Regarding my knees ... in February this year, a car pulled out right in front of me when I was travelling at speed on my road bike, and I didn't have time to even touch the brakes - all I could do was try to hit it square on. My knees were the first part of my body to hit the front wing of the car. Since that accident, I have had to give up running, which I'm very sad about because I had hoped to run a marathon before my 40th birthday next year, because my knees can't handle the loads that running places on them. Even without running, which leaves me unable to walk if I try to do it, I still can't do things like crouch down or kneel on the floor.

I love MTBing, and I'll carry on doing it as long as it's physically possible for me, but if riding a hardtail is making my knees worse, and there's an alternative that will reduce the load on them, it makes sense to go for the alternative. I don't doubt that a quality hardtail will make me more confident, but my knees will still be doing all the work that would be done by the rear shock on a full suss.

I noticed in your earlier post that you said "hardtails are more fun, as are older steel rigid MTBs". You see, I wouldn't agree with that. My view is, "Why have rigid when you can have comfy suspension?" I even ride a steel road bike with a nice, flexy fork that softens the bumps in the road, and I'm about to replace the wheels so I can run wider tyres on it and soften them even more.

The only reason I've never considered full suss (apart from not being able to afford it) is because I didn't think it was for "the likes of me". Now I've been disabused of that notion and - thanks to a nice driver who had problems using his eyes - I also have some money to spend, full suss seems like the obvious way to go.

And as for trying a few bikes ... I'd be lucky to even try one. Women don't cycle here - in the 2 years I've been here, I've met 3 other female cyclists who live fairly locally, and hundreds of men. So, the shops don't tend to stock small bikes. (The bike I rode on Sunday that's a bit big for me is a 39cm frame, so I need a seriously small bike.) This being Spain, the shops also don't order bikes in just so a potential customer can try them. It just isn't the way things are done.

So, choosing a new bike is going to be down to lots of discussion on here, lots of reading manufacturers' websites and studying geometry charts, and then making a decision. That's how I chose the Surly, and that's been a complete success, so I won't hesitate to do it again.



GregCollins said:


> That won't change with FS, you'll just be travelling faster while you think it.


 


GregCollins said:


> On trails I don't know I often find myself thinking "OMFG I'm gonna die."


 
It's nice to know I'll still be able to scare myself witless on a quality bike 

I suppose it's inevitable really, since my goal in cycling is usually to go further up the mountain than I've ever been before. And what goes up has to come down!


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## lukesdad (25 Sep 2012)

lulubel said:


> Nice thought, but might be tricky to get them to Spain.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've been behind the times here for quite a while. Until very recently - yesterday, in fact - I was still living with the belief that a hardtail was the only choice for leisure riders, and you had to be a serious MTBer to ride a full suss. I really must try and keep up!


 Erm think you ve got that arse about face  Full bouncers for leisure riders , HTs for ...... 

and suspension isn't there for comfort


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## lulubel (26 Sep 2012)

lukesdad said:


> and suspension isn't there for comfort


 
Maybe not, but the hardtail's still more comfortable on bumpy roads than the roadie, even if that isn't its intention.


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## GrumpyGregry (26 Sep 2012)

lukesdad said:


> Erm think you ve got that arse about face  Full bouncers for leisure riders , HTs for ......


horses for courses boss, horses for courses



> and suspension isn't there for comfort


[pantomime] Oh yes it is! [/pantomime]


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## Alberto (26 Sep 2012)

All bikes are good, and plenty of advice has been given on here already.

I own a road Canyon since they pretty much set up the company, and dealing with them on the couple of occasions that I had problems was far from ideal. You'll have to deal directly with Canyon Spain, which back 3-4 years ago was just not up to their job. They may have changed and perhaps there's better customer service now. If you can read Spanish, there used to be a dedicated Canyon forum on this forum

http://www.foromtb.com/forum.php

You'll find plenty of advice and people who own mtb and road Canyons there.

If you can deal with most of the mechanicals yourself, then it's definitely very good value for money. But otherwise, I would look at other options (Rose, who offer a very good post-sales service) or even your LBS.


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## billflat12 (26 Sep 2012)

Sorry to hear about your accident, for comfort maybe look at a 29r, The bigger wheels roll better & smooth out the ride more , rode a demo once because of my knees, bike felt more planted & less nervous because of it,s slower handling, downsides was lack of acceleration & not as lively or "chuckable" as a 26" bike, (unlike my nephews 20" wheel bmx )


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## Cyclist33 (30 Sep 2012)

As much as I might think this thread is ott, it is pretty clear the op is after a full suss so why dont people stop advising her otherwise and offer some options?!


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## Cubist (30 Sep 2012)

Cyclist33 said:


> As much as I might think this thread is ott, it is pretty clear the op is after a full suss so why dont people stop advising her otherwise and offer some options?!


http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/full-suss-for-£1500.112306/


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## Cyclist33 (30 Sep 2012)

Touchee!


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## fuji-stu (1 Oct 2012)

Have a good mooch around your LBS there are loads of 2012 bargins to be had..ive been after a hardtail for ages and just found this at a bike shop nea me http://www.wheelbase.co.uk/product_17136.htm
i snapped it up lurvley


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Oct 2012)

fuji-stu said:


> Have a good mooch around your LBS there are loads of 2012 bargins to be had..ive been after a hardtail for ages and just found this at a bike shop nea me http://www.wheelbase.co.uk/product_17136.htm
> i snapped it up lurvley


Nice idea.

'cept lulubel lives in Spain which does rather reduce the LBS options.


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## fuji-stu (1 Oct 2012)

oh yeah dohh


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## Cyclist33 (1 Oct 2012)

... and she wants a full-suss now


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## lulubel (1 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Nice idea.
> 
> 'cept lulubel lives in Spain which does rather reduce the LBS options.


 
It does a bit, but largely because the population (and therefore the infrastructure) is so spread out, so you have to travel a long way to get the kind of choice you get easily in the UK. Population density is quite high where we are, but it's still nothing like much of the south east, for example - more like the far west of Cornwall.

The other thing that's quite funny is that Spanish shops don't tend to reduce prices much. They just keep old stock in at full price until it's sold, and then buy new stock, so you really have to watch what you're buying, or you could end up with something that's been hanging around for a few years. (I haven't really noticed this with bikes because small shops never keep more than a few in at a time, but I've certainly noticed it with other things. Even big chain food stores will keep fruit and veg on the shelves until it can practically walk off by itself.)


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## lulubel (4 Oct 2012)

I've just seen my doctor this morning (about something totally unrelated) and asked him about my knees and MTBing, and his opinion is that my knees will improve as they adapt to the stresses of MTBing, and as the damage continues to heal. His advice was to get the lightest hardtail I can afford! (Which has thrown me a bit, since I thought I knew what I was getting, but he is a keen MTBer who has been riding the trails around here for years, as well as being a medical professional.)


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## Cyclist33 (4 Oct 2012)

Well anyone could have told you that!!


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## lulubel (4 Oct 2012)

Cyclist33 said:


> Well anyone could have told you that!!


 
What? That the damage to my knees from hitting metal at 20mph wasn't permanent? Generally, the recommendation over in Health, Fitness and Training is that you take that kind of advice from a doctor, rather than random people on a forum.


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Oct 2012)

No silly "Get the lightest hardtail you can afford" 

He would say that, he's an experienced MTB-er.


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## lulubel (4 Oct 2012)

Yes, I know. I guess I was just a bit irritated by Cyclist33's comment.

I've been hovering over the "buy" button on the Radon Slide Diva for a few days, because I know it's a lot of money to spend on something that's purely a toy and has no chance of ever having any kind of practical application, so I thought I'd talk to my doctor (who has the advantage of knowing me and my injury history, and also being a keen MTBer) and see what he thought. His opinion was that my knee pain is temporary, and I don't need to spend the extra money on a full suss for the sake of my knees.

He also offered the opinion that 2 months isn't long to have been MTBing regularly, and I'll get much better at descending the rocky trails on a hardtail with more experience, so I don't need a full suss for that either!

On the other hand, the man in the bike shop in town thought my idea of getting a full suss was very sensible, and was more than happy to sell me one for €1650.

I think I know which of the two had my best interests at heart.


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## billflat12 (4 Oct 2012)

F.S is defiantly a traction thing , ( unlike 29er,s )
Legendary source of knowledge for all things cycling here , http://sheldonbrown.com/pain.html#knees


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## Cyclist33 (4 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> No silly "Get the lightest hardtail you can afford"
> 
> He would say that, he's an experienced MTB-er.


 
WHat he said! Sorry if it came across another way


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## GrumpyGregry (5 Oct 2012)

lulubel said:


> Yes, I know. I guess I was just a bit irritated by Cyclist33's comment.
> 
> I've been hovering over the "buy" button on the Radon Slide Diva for a few days, because I know it's a lot of money to spend on something that's purely a toy and has no chance of ever having any kind of practical application, so I thought I'd talk to my doctor (who has the advantage of knowing me and my injury history, and also being a keen MTBer) and see what he thought. His opinion was that my knee pain is temporary, and I don't need to spend the extra money on a full suss for the sake of my knees.
> 
> ...


 
Go back, ask Doc if he has a full bounce, if not why not? Ask him what he's got, I'll wager he'll say a lightweight hardtail. Here's the thing, if you asked me, before this summer what sort of mtb to get I'd have said racy geometry XC HT. Like wot I ride. Steer clear of slack jawed trail bikes and full boingers, they're pants. I'd say. Sure on technical terrain an XC racer is a handful but that is part of the fun, overcoming the built in obstacles.

Ask him what the best tyres are he'll tell you what are on his bike, what brakes,.... you catch my drift.

He does have your best interests at heart as a medic, but not from an MTB'ing perspective, very difficult to be objective about such things.

You don't need to spend extra cash on full bounce for your knees' sake. You need to spend extra cash on a full bounce to get down mountains faster.

well, that's my 2p.


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## lulubel (5 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Go back, ask Doc if he has a full bounce, if not why not? Ask him what he's got, I'll wager he'll say a lightweight hardtail. Here's the thing, if you asked me, before this summer what sort of mtb to get I'd have said racy geometry XC HT. Like wot I ride. Steer clear of slack jawed trail bikes and full boingers, they're pants. I'd say. Sure on technical terrain an XC racer is a handful but that is part of the fun, overcoming the built in obstacles.
> 
> Ask him what the best tyres are he'll tell you what are on his bike, what brakes,.... you catch my drift.
> 
> ...


 
Oh, I totally agree with this. I know most people don't rate Tektro canti brakes, but I can lock the wheels on my road bike, on dry tarmac, with one finger on the lever, using CR720s, so I'd tell you they're great.

My doctor rides a hardtail because he doesn't want to lose speed on the climbs.

More detail? His hardtail cost him €450 about 6 years ago, but since then practically everything has been replaced except the frame, so it's a much better bike than it was when he bought it. He aims to average 10k/h on climbs and, to quote him, he told me with a grin that, "I go down hills fast."

His friends all ride hardtails for the same reasons, but they don't all ride downhill as aggressively as he does. His worst crash resulted in a broken finger. One of his friends had a noteworthy crash on slippery ground after the rain at the end of last week, which resulted in a gash in his arm that my doctor stitched for him.

There was probably a lot more to the conversation, but that's what comes immediately to mind.

He's invited me to join them on one of their rides, and I probably will when I've got my new bike. At least if I crash trying to keep up, I know there's a doctor nearby!


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## VamP (6 Oct 2012)

There' one easy answer to all this you know

N + 1 

Actually, without being facetious, you probably cannot know whether you prefer a HT or FS in your situation until you have a bit more experience with a (with all due respect to your current bike) properly suspended bike on your terrain. And you'll always wonder if the grass isn't a bit greener on the other side.

Which is how we all get into this mess in the first place.


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## lulubel (6 Oct 2012)

You're right. I won't know for certain unless I try both, and trying both isn't an option when you don't know anyone with bikes your size that you can try. So, all I really have to go on is the knowledge that the vast majority of people round here ride hardtails - in fact, I haven't noticed a FS out on the trails at all, but it may have passed me downhill so fast that it was a blur! I'm starting to think that, if everyone else round here manages fine with a HT, and I don't have any medical reasons to ride a FS, I should just get a decent HT and practice until I can ride better.

I also agree that a decent HT is going to feel a world apart from what I have been riding. I wouldn't be at all suprised if the forks on it are only 80mm travel (that seems quite common on cheap, small-framed bikes), and I'm also curious about the head and seat tube angles. I'm going to get a protractor and actually measure them, but I'm not sure how accurate my measuring will be.

I'm actually wondering about buying an On One Inbred frame, sticking 120mm travel Rebas on it, and seeing how I get on. If I don't like the frame, it hasn't cost me much to find out, and I still have some nice forks to put on another bike.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Oct 2012)

In the Picos last year FS were are rare as hens teeth when I was holidaying there, everyone was either on a high end road bike on road or an XC race style HT off it. No trail bikes, no AM. 'cept those brought over by fellow tourists.

I thought it was probs a cultural thing. Road racing is big in Spain, messing about at trail centres isn't, racey XC riding, with bragging rights on the climbs, is where it is at.


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## lulubel (6 Oct 2012)

I agree with that too. Here, it's road bikes for on road (and no tyres wider than 23mm either!), fast HTs for off-road. Nothing outside of that, nothing in between. If you have the slightest concern about fitting in, you certainly wouldn't be seen dead on a hybrid.

Bragging rights on the climbs? I can see that, and feel it too. I'm quite competitive. I have the QOM on all the climbs I've done on Strava, except a couple of road climbs that I've only done on the MTB, and I'm mixing it with the stronger, fitter, more experienced male MTBers on the off-road climbs. If I'm not in the top third of the list, I'm very dissatisfied with my performance, and I'm always looking to move up a place.

I suppose, if you asked me if I prefer climbing or descending, I'd say climbing. I thought that was because of my lack of confidence on the descents, but I actually prefer climbing on the road too, now I think about it. Unless it's too steep, when it becomes a slog. Steady road climbs, between 5-10%, which we have a lot of around here, suit me very nicely. (The thing I love most about MTBing is being high in the mountains, with only the wildlife and the spectacular views for company, and you don't get that if you don't enjoy climbing.)

So, maybe I should get a bike that plays to my strengths and climbs well, and accept that I'll have to be careful on the descents. (Rather than a bike that will compensate for my weaknesses, which is the route I was going down.)


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Oct 2012)

It's useful to have conversations to refine one's thinking.

Right now I'm thinking: lulubel needs a light HT with a long travel 120+mm fork with lock out and one ideally on which she can cut the travel for the climbs she loves (Cubist will remind us of the correct terminology). Riding such a bike over several months and putting what she's read in to practise (and she will need to practise over and over not just ride for kicks all the time) her descending will improve in leaps and she will learn to accept the sketchy feel of a HT going full chat down a mountain side. (A feeling I love btw)


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## billflat12 (6 Oct 2012)

If you want bragging rights on climbs & just like powering uphill then a super-light XC / HT makes sense , yes penalty is you have to pick your line more carefully down the extreme stuff ,
Otherwise any AM / FS beast ( A lightweight compromise over heavyweight big hitters ) will still get you up, but will pass your doctor in unfamiliar surroundings going down because your line is less important, + your not perched over the bars like an xc racer.. Its all down to the style of riding you prefer i,m afraid ,
Good bike fit & basic technique is important for confidence , dirt magazine do a good dvd called
MTB Fundementels see:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fundamentals mtb
& watch the downhill pro,s.at work


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v3K5x9jQSs


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqYgAX6D43Q


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## lulubel (7 Oct 2012)

Here are a few steel HT alternatives;

On One Inbred - cheap and cheerful, designed for 120mm travel forks, short top tube will fit nicely, not a financial disaster if I hate it.

Surly Troll (2012) - not so cheap, designed for 100mm forks but people are putting 120mm on them (which will slacken the head angle nicely), will make a good heavy tourer if I hate it as a MTB, will make a good heavy tourer if I love it as a MTB (all I have to do is swap the forks for the standard rigid ones), BUT they're really difficult to get hold of right now. (I do know that using a longer fork than the manufacturer recommends can risk damaging the frame, but this is a Surly - they're designed to be bodged and abused.)

Cotic Soul - expensive, top tube on the smallest size is about 30mm longer than I'm comfortable with (but I could get 25mm of that back by using a straight rather than layback seatpost, which will put the saddle nicely forward for the climbs and won't matter on the descents because I won't be sat on it), flexible as to fork travel, Cubist's description of the ride in this post sounds like it could be exactly what I'm looking for.

There's also the Dialled Bikes Alpine, but that's only £100 less than the Cotic Soul, without having any of the flexibility advantages of the Surly Troll (ie. won't double up as a heavy tourer), so if I wanted to save myself £100 over the Cotic, it would make more sense to get the Surly.

Choices, choices .....

(Actually, it's quite unnerving having so much choice because when I bought the Crosscheck, it was just a case of finding something that would fit me.)


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Oct 2012)

Were it me.... I'd go cheap and cheerful and if the bug bites swap the components onto a better frame later.

but then for someone starting out I'd probably recommend something utterly mundane and unexotic, some model or other of Spesh 'hopper, or simlar, whatever is popular in the local market,. simply for ease of resale, if you hate it. Got a decathlon locally?


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## RecordAceFromNew (7 Oct 2012)

lulubel said:


> Here are a few steel HT alternatives;
> 
> On One Inbred - cheap and cheerful, designed for 120mm travel forks, short top tube will fit nicely, not a financial disaster if I hate it.
> 
> ...


 
Strange. Are you sure these choices are light (I am assuming the current contemplation is driven by the Dr.'s suggestion) for the money? Not only are steel mtb frames (albeit a grand material for bike frame imho) generally not light, building a bike from a new frame (and presumably new components) up is certainly an expensive way of doing things, so it is unlikely to get you the lightest bike for the money.

The simple, general fact, is that a decent full sus XC frame with rear shock weighs about 2.6kg, which is ~1kg more than a comparable light alloy HT frame. Since all the other gubbins are/can be the same the notional 1kg is the only weight difference. In terms of price again all else being equal the difference is ~£400 for decent kits. This is why, e.g., if you look at Decathlon's line-up of FS you see some low quality offerings at £400 and under, and the next step up is closer to £1000. This is also why you won't see a Spesh FS much under £1000. Of course in fire sales you can do better, occasionally.

IME most steel HT frames are not much lighter than decent FS frames including rear shock.

It seems to me your Dr.'s advice is a fashion statement, given none of the 1kg is rotational mass, and is under 2% of the weight you will be lugging around, and given for the money we are talking about in this thread you should have no problem getting a decent FS with rear lockout - which offers optionality. In the recent Olympic men's XC race probably some 90% of the field was on HT, but it was won by a FS. The point though is they were all ridden by riders who ARE experts - I am not saying a FS is always quicker, I am however saying it is not obvious that HTs are always quicker, and I am also saying it is most likely that FS are quicker in non-expert hands because nobody only rides uphill. If technologies improving traction is unhelpful because of the weight we would all still be going/racing up and down hills on rigid bikes!

Regarding fashion I presume you don't mind creating your own - else you would not be looking at steel HTs.

The price difference, on the other hand, is of course real.

Hence there is logic in playing it safe. It is probably fairly safe and easy to simply swap out the forks and tyres of your existing HT (if it fits you well) with some decent, lighter kits. Obviously where you stop depends on your risk capital, but a pair of SID/Reba and some folding Rocket Rons would certainly make a noticeable difference I expect. Being top level kits, they will also be no detriment on any future bike.


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## lulubel (7 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Were it me.... I'd go cheap and cheerful and if the bug bites swap the components onto a better frame later.
> 
> but then for someone starting out I'd probably recommend something utterly mundane and unexotic, some model or other of Spesh 'hopper, or simlar, whatever is popular in the local market,. simply for ease of resale, if you hate it. Got a decathlon locally?


 
I do have a Decathlon locally, but I've already got something utterly mundane and unexotic, and despite the fact that it was extremely cheap and it's falling apart, I love riding it. I'm well past the point of wondering whether I'm going to like MTBing or not. I'm already going out on the trails at least twice a week, and the only thing that stops me going more often is that my legs aren't strong enough to handle it yet. (Actually, I haven't been up the mountains at all this week because I've had some fluey bug and haven't had any strength at all, and it's so frustrating.)

So, I think I am ready to spend more money. I'm just not exactly sure what to spend it on.



RecordAceFromNew said:


> Hence there is logic in playing it safe. It is probably fairly safe and easy to simply swap out the forks and tyres of your existing HT (if it fits you well) with some decent, lighter kits. Obviously where you stop depends on your risk capital, but a pair of SID/Reba and some folding Rocket Rons would certainly make a noticeable difference I expect. Being top level kits, they will also be no detriment on any future bike.


 
Last part first!

I had thought of that - it was my original plan because the frame fits me nicely and I wanted to keep it - but closer investigation revealed that the frame is very unlikely to take tyres wider than the 1.95 that are on it at the moment, 2.1 possibly, but definitely nothing wider. If I put something like Rebas on it, I also need a new front wheel because the current fork is rim brakes only. And then I'll need a disc brake for the front ... and a new lever for it, I think. The chain and cassette (7-sp) are knackered (not a big deal, I can replace those). So, it starts to get more expensive, and some of the things I'm having to buy won't get reused if I replace the frame.

I ruled it out a while back because it doesn't make financial sense.



RecordAceFromNew said:


> Strange. Are you sure these choices are light (I am assuming the current contemplation is driven by the Dr.'s suggestion) for the money? Not only are steel mtb frames (albeit a grand material for bike frame imho) generally not light, building a bike from a new frame (and presumably new components) up is certainly an expensive way of doing things, so it is unlikely to get you the lightest bike for the money.
> 
> Regarding fashion I presume you don't mind creating your own - else you would not be looking at steel HTs.


 
The Cotic Soul is 4.4lb in medium. I'd be getting an extra small. My Surly Crosscheck is heavier than that. The others are heavier, I agree, but when I quoted my doctor's advice, that didn't mean I was going to follow it to the letter. I like steel. The Crosscheck has a softness to the ride that I'd never experienced before, even on a road bike with carbon forks.

Fashion doesn't interest me in the slightest. I mix with roadies on super-light frames with 20mm tyres, and I ride a steel cross bike with road wheels and 25mm tyres (which I'm looking to replace with cross wheels and 35mm tyres to further absorb the bumps). I also use flat pedals and wear sandals.



RecordAceFromNew said:


> IME most steel HT frames are not much lighter than decent FS frames including rear shock.


 
I agree. They're probably not. But I started to move away from full suss once I realised I didn't need it for "medical" reasons, and there was no real _need_ for it on the descents either. That would make it a lot of money to pay for a "toy" that I didn't actually need to play the games I wanted to play. And a toy that would never have any practical purpose if it wasn't being a toy. A HT is much more practical.


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## lulubel (8 Oct 2012)

I should probably also have added that this will very likely be the only chance I get to buy a MTB. We don't have a great deal of money to spend on things that we don't really need, and I can't see that situation changing any time in the foreseeable future. So, this compensation payment is the only money I'm going to have, which is why I want to get it right. I can't buy a bike to get more experience on "for now", and expect to replace it in a year or two's time.

But I also need to make a decision fairly quickly, before the money gradually gets spent on other things (which is already starting to happen).


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

lulubel said:


> I also use flat pedals and wear sandals.


I'm not talking to you any more. About anything.


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## Cubist (8 Oct 2012)

Wow, your thinking has led us round a merry route Lulubel!

As an outsider I think you have considered several options and are using heart and head to get you to a conclusion. If we all did absolutely sensible we'd all be riding Rockriders. 

I am guessing at your personality and outlook, but you've given us plenty of clues. So here is my best guess. You have an eye for quality, and now have the means to treat yourself. You are independent and individual and don't want mainstream, and more to the point you want your new bike to reflect your personality, and who could blame you? 

You have some criteria that you have spent a lot of time researching, and they show some quality research. You know that the best way to tick every box is to self build, but you need to seek out real bargains to compete with the big boys. That said, the best if not only way to project your personality onto a bike is to individually select and fit every component. 

A Cotic Soul is an amazing choice. Go onto Singletrackworld.com and search for threads. Owners gush more about that frame than any other. I bought one on those recommendations alone, and have not been disappointed.

It ticks a helluva lot of your boxes, and will be quite a talking point in Spain. I reckon it will enhance your confidence on the trails, and it's only about half a kilo more than a racy alloy frame. That's no payback at all for the added comfort on rough terrain.

Build it with carbon bars, XT kit and some decent wheels you'll get an xs well under 11kg. My medium came up at 11 with SLX.

I liked you thinking around fs xc bikes, especially as I see a lot of women riders on them here, but the Soul says much more about you.


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## lulubel (8 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> I'm not talking to you any more. About anything.


 
They're not flipflops. They're proper sport sandals, if that helps 




Cubist said:


> A Cotic Soul is an amazing choice. Go onto Singletrackworld.com and search for threads. Owners gush more about that frame than any other. I bought one on those recommendations alone, and have not been disappointed.
> 
> It ticks a helluva lot of your boxes, and will be quite a talking point in Spain. I reckon it will enhance your confidence on the trails, and it's only about half a kilo more than a racy alloy frame. That's no payback at all for the added comfort on rough terrain.
> 
> ...


 
Now, you see, I was almost ready to say, "Oh, &%($ it!" and stick a pin in my list of options, and you come back with this.

What drew me to the Cotic Soul was your review of it, followed by KernowLad saying much the same thing:



KernowLad said:


> That back end is SO much more planted and feels almost like it has a bit of rear suspension, it climbs very well, it's nimble,


 
I could get a Radon HT for €1,000. with Reba forks, Mavic wheels and mostly XT drivetrain (and a frame colour that would be a long way from my first choice, but that isn't really relevant), and it would be a decent bike, and I'm sure I'd have fun on it. Or I could spend quite a bit more on a Cotic Soul with nice kit, and everything I've read tells me I'd love it.

I originally looked at it from your post in Zenroad's thread about the On One 456 Evo, which is where I expanded my knowledge of steel frames, and I rejected it because of the long top tube, and that's the part that still worries me a bit. The bike I'm riding at the moment (my OH's) has a 530mm top tube, a 75mm stem, and I'm feeling like I'd quite like to put a shorter stem on it. The XS Soul has a 560mm top tube, so it's 30mm longer again. Is there leeway to use a straight seatpost (the one I'm using has 25mm setback) and a 40mm(ish) stem? That would make the saddle-bars distance about right, but I'm not sure about the saddle-cranks position. I cheerfully said in my earlier post that it would move me into a good forward position for climbing, but would the length of the top tube make it difficult to keep my weight centred over the pedals because I was having to position myself too far forward to reach the bars comfortably on descents?

I've also been looking for potential donor bikes that could provide most of the parts for a Soul build. I notice the geometry they show on their site is with a 100mm fork sagged 25mm. What does "sagged" mean? That's something I keep seeing and don't understand.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

It's how you set up a front fork. You set the 'sag'. So 100mm nominal travel you want the preload to be such that 25% (25mm) disappears through 'sag' when you sit on the bike in your full riding clobber complete with full camelbak, helmet, and body armour. The amount of sag, and travel of a fork, determines the actual head tube angle, which is of course constantly changing as you ride along, rather than the notional head tube angle so does have an effect on handling, though I've never been such a sensitive soul that I could detect it. In Cotic's example they've built the frame to ride best with 75mm of actual travel on the trail, though the forks may well extend their full travel at times when they have little or no load.


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## lulubel (8 Oct 2012)

I see. So, in that example, they'll bottom out under 4 times your body (plus stuff) weight.

I take it that, the harder you're riding (downhill), the less sag you want because the bike will be landing harder. If you ride downhill like a wuss, you can get away with lots of sag!

And the sag is determined by the air pressure.

Is that all correct?


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## lulubel (8 Oct 2012)

Also, I THINK the Soul (although it has a tapered head tube) would accept a fork with a 1 1/8" steerer. Is that correct?

If it is, I'm wondering if this would make a suitable donor bike.

I know the fork it comes with is only 100mm of travel, but I'm sure I could live with that. The frame of the donor bike would be too big for me, but would probably fit my OH when she decides she does want to come MTBing after all, at which point the 100mm Rebas could go back on it, and I could get some 120mm ones. I could also sell it to her on the basis that, "I'm saving €300 by buying this bike instead of the €1,000 one, which leaves me some spare money to spend on the frame I want," - the frame being paid for on my credit card and being of unmentioned price!


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

lulubel said:


> I see. So, in that example, they'll bottom out under 4 times your body (plus stuff) weight.
> 
> I take it that, the harder you're riding (downhill), the less sag you want because the bike will be landing harder. If you ride downhill like a wuss, you can get away with lots of sag!
> 
> ...


Sag is determined by air pressure yes. But I don't advocate you change sag depending on how fast you intend to descend. Other may feel otherwise. If you are going to go downhill fast you want more absolute travel, typically an XC bike has 15-20% sag, trail bikes 20-30%, and a downhill bike 25-35%. To reduce the sag you increase the air pressure (and vice versa) so you are making the spring stiffer (or softer to increase sag) Different spring rates affect how the fork reacts to different hits and that is a taste thing.....

Bottoming forks out out under compression depends on the 'spring rate'. Air isn't a linear spring. So the force required to make the spring compress a given distance should increase the more the spring is compressed. Useful glossary here

How much sag you want/need, and what your compression damping settings (both low speed and speed), and your rebound damping setting all sit neatly in the category called 'depends' or 'this is an art not a science'.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

watch out to be certain the steerer tube on any donor bike is not only the right diameter/type but also of a length which is appropriate to the headtube size of the recipient bike or more expense and hassle will await you.


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## MacB (8 Oct 2012)

Interesting thread and I'm learning, I've been down a similar route but am still very much at the novice level. The big difference for me is I've had the chance to try a few bikes, HT and FS 26" and 29er. My pedigree so far is using a fully rigid Karate Monkey but a lot of my 'tests' on other bikes have involved swapping with mates, so I've had the chance to ride the same bits in direct comparison. Interestingly some of the guys I thought were pretty good turn out to be not so hot when you put them on a fully rigid. While others I've just decided that they'd wipe my clock on anything bar a kiddies trike, and even that might be close.

Though a KM does cover all of my current needs I'm an indulgent sort but I'm also fairly brutal about my future potential. I was always slowest downhill when I was a kid and that hasn't changed so I have to accept that I'm never going to find the courage(or stupidity) to match what some others do. So I factor in what I do, and like, best which happens to be trails and climbing. The FS I've tried were nice but didn't really improve my downhill speed as I was already going as fast as I was comfortable with.

Anyway, being indulgent I ordered a custom frame, mainly to cater to my preferred hub gear needs and to allow for touring potential. From the test rides, and my ridiculously large spreadsheets of geometry, my custom build has ended up closest in design to a Cotic Solaris. I even specced the ability to go up to a 120mm fork though the frame is really optimised for 80-100mm....that's my just in case attitude.

The frame arrives this week and all the shiny bits are waiting for it, good job really as I have lost my first two KMs to my sons and had to sell No 3 to fund this. My only serious error is in forks, not the squishy ones I have waiting but the nice Salsa rigid ones. I had them on one of the KMs and trimmed the steerer without really thinking it through, as in just measuring the KM headtube to be sure. I'd downloaded latest KM geometry and it had about a 120mm HT whereas the model I had was still on the older 95mm HT. So I now have a nearly new set of Salsa rigid steel forks that won't work on my new frame. I know I'm hoping not to need them but they were part of my 'security blanket' in case I didn't get on with or had problems with the squishies


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

MacB any half decent frame builder restorer will weld an extra bit of steerer tube on your forks for less than the price of a decent tyre.


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## MacB (8 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> MacB any half decent frame builder restorer will weld an extra bit of steerer tube on your forks for less than the price of a decent tyre.


 
oh I know but can you imagine me being happy with that? I've already bought their replacements anyway


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

MacB said:


> oh I know but can you imagine me being happy with that? I've already bought their replacements anyway


no. But the weld would be stronger than the original tube!


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## lulubel (8 Oct 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Bottoming forks out out under compression depends on the 'spring rate'. Air isn't a linear spring. So the force required to make the spring compress a given distance should increase the more the spring is compressed. Useful glossary here
> 
> How much sag you want/need, and what your compression damping settings (both low speed and speed), and your rebound damping setting all sit neatly in the category called 'depends' or 'this is an art not a science'.


 
Of course. I'd read that about air somewhere. I think the point that was being made was that the ride gets progressively harsher as the spring is compressed further, and dual air forks go some way towards compensating for this by opening up the second chamber at a certain compression point. Maybe?



GregCollins said:


> watch out to be certain the steerer tube on any donor bike is not only the right diameter/type but also of a length which is appropriate to the headtube size of the recipient bike or more expense and hassle will await you.


 
My proposed donor bike has a 140mm head tube and the XS Soul has a 100mm head tube, so that should be fine, I think, even if I want a bit of steerer stuck out. (In fact, I'd have to have a bit of steerer stuck out if I wanted to be able to put them back on the old frame at all.)



MacB said:


> Anyway, being indulgent I ordered a custom frame, mainly to cater to my preferred hub gear needs and to allow for touring potential. From the test rides, and my ridiculously large spreadsheets of geometry, my custom build has ended up closest in design to a Cotic Solaris. I even specced the ability to go up to a 120mm fork though the frame is really optimised for 80-100mm....that's my just in case attitude.


 
I think you and I are quite alike in our approach, except that you may be even more obsessed with geometry charts than I am.


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## lulubel (8 Oct 2012)

Alternatively, I could buy the €1,000 bike, which is the Radon ZR Lady 7.0, muck around on it for a while to get more feel for riding a better quality MTB, then get a Cotic Soul frame and use the Radon as donor bike. (This would mean making sure the money for the Soul was put back somewhere so neither of us spent it in the mean time.)

Or I could save myself €200 by doing the same thing, but with the lower specced Radon ZR Lady 6.0, but that would mean a Recon Silver fork instead of the Reba, and not getting the Mavic wheels that are on the 7.0 (which aren't included in the original proposed donor bike anyway, so it's only really the loss of the Rebas that's different).


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## Cubist (8 Oct 2012)

Put your hands in the air and step away from the geometry charts citizen.......

The longer top tube on the Soul should indeed be countered by a shorter stem. You are a petite build, and I would suggest a 50mm stem with bars at least 685 wide. Also, think "effective" top tube, given the frame angles.

On descents on a hardtail you should be up on the pedals, shifting your weight backwards and forwards around a slammed seat, not fretting about geometry. 

Dual Air forks do indeed have a negative air chamber which counters the compression thing, so that they continue to compress more linearly at the end of their travel. This way you get to use all the travel without having a massive hard squish at the end. Hence why I run mine on 30% sag and 10% less air in the negative chamber. Forget that for now though, you'll have oodles of fun finding the sweet spot when you get the fork. 

Donor bikes! That Radon 7 is nearly there isn't it! Bit of a heads up though. The photo shows an SLX Crankset, but the spec list shows a FC M552 Hollowtech Deore. I'd want to be certain I was getting the SLX . The rest of the finishing kit is decent quality stuff, and of course the wheels are a bonus there.


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## Cubist (8 Oct 2012)

Oh, and when you order the Soul you tell Cy what sort of fork you have, and he'll include a Hope headset to suit. My Reba was a straight 1 1/8", so you get an adapter to fit your fork crown, and the crown race drops down onto it. Total cost 65 plus a tenner for the adapter.


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## Cubist (8 Oct 2012)

Check this donor. The Fox forks would fetch enough on ebay to buy your Rebas if you didn't love them enough. 
http://www.hibike.de/shop/product/p...nt-XTC-Alliance-bike-size-S-16-blue-2010.html


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Oct 2012)

No geometry chart ever won a race or got a rider down a mountain. Sometimes you just have to decide what to ride and run what you brung.


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## VamP (9 Oct 2012)

How about you save £200 by getting a Ragley Piglet instead of the Soul, and then you can get the donor with Rebas and the decent wheelset? I suspect that you'll find the Soul and the Piglet remarkably similar at your level of experience.


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## lulubel (9 Oct 2012)

Geometry. The reason I'm making this important is because I'm short - 5'2" - and a typical female build. My legs are long, relative to my height, and my upper body and arms are short. That means, if I were to find a typically built man of my height, and we rode identical bikes, I would be more stretched out than he would be. Since unisex frames are typically built for male proportions, I have to be careful not to make an expensive mistake.



VamP said:


> How about you save £200 by getting a Ragley Piglet instead of the Soul, and then you can get the donor with Rebas and the decent wheelset? I suspect that you'll find the Soul and the Piglet remarkably similar at your level of experience.


 
The Piglet is really stretched out - 588mm ETT in the 14" frame size, compared to the Soul's 560mm, or the 530mm I have at the moment. I think that would be pushing it too far. Besides which, it seems silly to save £200 on the total cost of a bike by not getting the frame I want. And I won't stay at my current level of experience forever. Hopefully, I'll improve, and if I've already got a Soul, I won't then keep hankering after one and knowing I can't afford it. Once you've already got the HT that everyone who's got one raves about, there isn't really anywhere to go (other than FS, and I've decided against that), so I won't spend my time wanting something that I can't have.

This Corratec X-Vert is another option for a donor bike that I could probably ride for a bit (with a short stem) and get some experience before I move all the components over to the Soul frame. It's a 2011, and I can't find the - yes, I know - geometry chart for that year, but the 2012 model has a 560mm ETT, and I've noticed a trend for increasing top tube length in the newer models, so if it's different, it's most likely to be shorter. My OH should also be able to use that frame after I've finished with it, if she wants to try MTBing. What they show of the spec looks good, the head tube on the 2012 model is 110mm (10mm longer than the Soul), there's nothing about the wheels, but they look like DT Swiss rims and Conti Race King tyres. Now I've found that, I'm itching to hit the buy button, actually, but I need to wait for my CC bill to be issued on Friday so it goes onto the next month's statement - the other big positive of ordering that bike is that it's in stock, so I won't have to wait ages for it (I notice the availability has changed to week 46 now on the Radon ZR Lady 7.0).


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