# SS Build - Help Needed - PLEASE



## gb155 (25 Jul 2011)

Not sure whats causing this

too wide a chain? too tight ? sprocket and ring not compatible ?


I just dunno, PLEASE help 

[media]
]View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpMrKFZ25WE[/media]


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## DrSquirrel (25 Jul 2011)

If it can lift up on the teeth - its too loose for one.

Other than that - what is the chainline like? SS should be straight - very straight (if this was fixed it would be dangerous).


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## gb155 (25 Jul 2011)

DrSquirrel said:


> If it can lift up on the teeth - its too loose for one.
> 
> Other than that - what is the chainline like? SS should be straight - very straight (if this was fixed it would be dangerous).



Ermmmmmmmmmm...Chainline ?


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## DrSquirrel (25 Jul 2011)

It's hard to get it in a photo, but this one looks out of line...
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1352/544936507_02e1557383.jpg (ignore the 2 cogs)

But this one is good...
http://www.fixedgear.co.nz/images_rear/vitus_chainline.jpg


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## wheres_my_beard (25 Jul 2011)

That looks like the chain is not knitting properly into the teeth of the cog to me. Not so much to do with chainline, more to do with incompatible parts.


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## gaz (26 Jul 2011)

Do you get this problem when there is enough tension in the chain?
In the video your wheel is only just in the dropouts, surely it can't be tensioned properly.


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

wheres_my_beard said:


> That looks like the chain is not knitting properly into the teeth of the cog to me. Not so much to do with chainline, more to do with incompatible parts.



What do you mean ?


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

gaz said:


> Do you get this problem when there is enough tension in the chain?
> In the video your wheel is only just in the dropouts, surely it can't be tensioned properly.




Yea, happens all the time, even when super- tensioned


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

DrSquirrel said:


> It's hard to get it in a photo, but this one looks out of line...
> http://farm2.static...._02e1557383.jpg (ignore the 2 cogs)
> 
> But this one is good...
> ...


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

1478259 said:


> When it stops and rides up the link that fails to engage the cog is silver. What is different about this one from the others, apart from the colour?




Ahhhhhh , that's a quick link to join the chain


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## Red Light (26 Jul 2011)

Is it a new chain and new cog to add another possibility to the ones already mentioned? If one or t'other were worn it could do that but my bet would be on chainline with the chain trying to derail.


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

1478262 said:


> Does it bend freely? Will it sit on the cog OK at all? Can you put another link in to move the wheel back in the drop out?




I shall take a look this evening


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## DrSquirrel (26 Jul 2011)

I thought at first is was that silver link - but further on into the video (seconds before the end) I see it doing the same on another area without the link.


Do you know how to walk the wheel into the drops to get it tight? I have tried and tested pushing my chain off the cog on my fixed when tensioned and have yet been able to.

If you tighten both nuts, losen the non drive side and push the wheel between the chainstay (near the crank) towards the non-drive side and tighten the non drive nut, and then do this in reverse for the drive side. Without this it's hard to get a good tension on the chain (you can have it too tight as well btw).

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/fixed.html#tension - Rear Wheel Installation


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## wheres_my_beard (26 Jul 2011)

To eliminate what I have suggested as a problem (cog/chain teeth/gaps not matching) you could remove the cog and chain; lay the chain completely flat on a clean surface and manually roll the cog up the chain and visually check to see if all the teeth move freely into the gaps in the chain links or whether the cog still rises up. 

I have set up my SS with a sloppy chainline and didn't have any trouble until test riding, with full pedal strokes. And even then that was after a few revolutions. That vid looks like it barely has 1/2 of the chain going round before disengaging.


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## Pennine-Paul (26 Jul 2011)

Your not using a 3/32 chain with an 1/8 freewheel are you????

most freewheels are 1/8

had similar problem with a fixed sprocket that was supposed to be 3/32

On changing to an 1/8 th chain worked fine


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

Pennine-Paul said:


> Your not using a 3/32 chain with an 1/8 freewheel are you????
> 
> most freewheels are 1/8
> 
> ...




Erm, would the chain give a size ?


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## Pennine-Paul (26 Jul 2011)

just measure the gap between the plates (on the narrowest links) should be 1/8


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

Yup it's 1/8

This is my chain line


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## gaz (26 Jul 2011)

Your chain line doesn't look straight, look just after your freewheel and you will see a kink in the chain line.
It looks like your wheel isn't straight, i would suggest putting the wheel in properly and getting some decent tension in the chain.


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## fossyant (26 Jul 2011)

That's miles off Gaz (Chain line). Where have you put the front chain ring - If it's on the outside of the spider, move it to the inside.

If you can't then how much space is there between the chain ring and frame. Because, you may need another BB with a shorter Axel.

Eg. if the BB has a 120mm axel, you may need 110 or less. 

What hub is on there -is that a standard 130mm ?

Correct chain line:-


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## gb155 (26 Jul 2011)

fossyant said:


> That's miles off Gaz (Chain line). Where have you put the front chain ring - If it's on the outside of the spider, move it to the inside.
> 
> If you can't then how much space is there between the chain ring and frame. Because, you may need another BB with a shorter Axel.
> 
> ...




This is how the front is set up






Can I put it to the outside ? ( would that even help ?


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (26 Jul 2011)

won't do any good. you need to measure from the centre of the rear stays to the cog, and then from the centre of the bb to the same edge of the sprocket, they should be identical. 

chainlines are easy with a single speed hub conversion kit (moving spacers around to get chainline correct, i.e, putting a kit onto a standard block carrier like shimano 8 speed for example) but with a ss specific hub, you need to buy a matching hub for the bb or vice versa. 

it needs to be right or the chain will throw, usually at speed and may lock up the rear wheel, just when you don't want it to.



www.sheldonbrown.com


i think you may need to change the bb or use some spacers on the bb (too move chainline around).


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (26 Jul 2011)

1478276 said:


> No from what we can see in the photos the chain leaves the cog and bends outwards so your chainring needs to be further in. As your chainring is on the inside of the spider* this suggests a shorter bottom bracket is called for.*
> 
> You do need a bit more chain to get the axle further back so it is more securely in the drop outs.
> 
> Have you looked at that link to see whether it is the right size?



he could put spacers on the non drive side of the bb, but i agree a shorter bb is the best option.


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

I have a sinking feeling im outta my league here and I thought SS would be a more simple build than a full geared carbon !


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## Red Light (27 Jul 2011)

Its not too difficult to get from where you are. Your chainline is definitely off but the fix is simple. Measure the rear cog position (measure the spacing between the insides of the drop outs and the distance from the inside of the drop out to the middle of the cog. The measure you need is half the first measurement minus the second to give you the distance from the mid line of the bike. Similarly measure the width of your bottom bracket and the distance from the edge of the bottom bracket to the middle of the chainring. The chainring distance is half the first measurement plus the second. 

Now take the difference between those two measurements, subtract it from the current bottom bracket width and buy a new bottom bracket of the correct size. Worth doing a few checks on the current clearance between the cranks and the bottom bracket and cranks & chainring and chainstays to make sure the shorter bottom bracket will not cause problems there. 

You may not be able to get exactly the right size BB in which case you may need to play around with spacers on the rear axle to move the hub and cog relative to the dropouts to fine tune it.

Good luck - it'll be worth it and you'll have a few more bike building skills in your kitbag when you're done. Most of us with fixed/SS have been through this ourselves.


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## PpPete (27 Jul 2011)

That video looks to me like a 3/16" chain on a 1/8" sprocket (which is a mistake I've made myself in the past).

Do not lose heart Gaz, getting chainline right on a fixed or SS conversion is always the biggest challenge - and we know you can deal with challenges. 

On my fixed (which used an old 126 mm threaded hub) I got most of the way there by swopping spacers from one side of the axle to the other, and then re-dishing the wheel.

The problem with a shorter BB is that if you are not careful you end up with chainring (or even the crank) fouling the chainstay, so figure out what your current spindle is and what clearance you have to spare before you buy a new BB.

_____

EDIT - Cross posted with Redlight - who explains it better !


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> I have a sinking feeling im outta my league here and I thought SS would be a more simple build than a full geared carbon !





it is once you get your head around chainlines. all you gotta think of is that the chain and sprocket are on a straight line.

the easiest way to check and see for yourself, get a long straight edge, like a straight piece of wood, put against the chainring, then put against the sprocket teeth, everything should be touching the piece of wood (i.e., the front and rear of the chainring and sprocket teeth).

yours won't at the mo, but at least it will give you a visual idea to get your head around.

i hope i explained that ok.

shaun


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> it is once you get your head around chainlines. all you gotta think of is that the chain and sprocket are on a straight line.
> 
> the easiest way to check and see for yourself, get a long straight edge, like a straight piece of wood, put against the chainring, then put against the sprocket teeth, everything should be touching the piece of wood (i.e., the front and rear of the chainring and sprocket teeth).
> 
> ...




Thank I'll use that tip to try and get my head around it tonigh

Gaz


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## PpPete (27 Jul 2011)

PpPete said:


> That video looks to me like a 3/16" chain on a 1/8" sprocket (which is a mistake I've made myself in the past).



Having looked again at the video it could be an old (very stretched) chain on a new sprocket ? Combined with the sub-optimal chainline that will throw chain off like that.

My experience of fixed conversions is that, on the workstand, if everything else is right even a poor chainline won't throw the chain off the sprocket like that, so I think there may be something else to it as well as the chainline.


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## PpPete (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> Thank I'll use that tip to try and get my head around it tonigh
> 
> Gaz



I completely mis-read that the first time.
Thinks - head, long lengths of wood, etc etc


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

PpPete said:


> Having looked again at the video it could be an old (very stretched) chain on a new sprocket ? Combined with the sub-optimal chainline that will throw chain off like that.
> 
> My experience of fixed conversions is that, on the workstand, if everything else is right even a poor chainline won't throw the chain off the sprocket like that, so I think there may be something else to it as well as the chainline.




Chain is brand new

Sprocket however is far from new


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## 4F (27 Jul 2011)

fossyant said:


> That's miles off Gaz (Chain line). Where have you put the front chain ring - If it's on the outside of the spider, move it to the inside.
> 
> If you can't then how much space is there between the chain ring and frame. Because, you may need another BB with a shorter Axel.
> 
> ...



chain's slack


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> Chain is brand new
> 
> Sprocket however is far from new



problem solved. new sprocket needed and chainline needs sorting. however, sheldon brown reckons a multi speed chain (3/32") will allow a misalignment


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## DrSquirrel (27 Jul 2011)

Looking at how near the end it is in the drop outs - maybe an extra link is needed to shove it back a bit?

Double check that the space between the rear stays against the tyre left and right are exact.


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## fossyant (27 Jul 2011)

What hub is it. It looks like a road hub for a freewheel.

Has the wheel been built to ss with correct dishing ?

Do you have to squeeze the frame together to fit the wheel in the reop outs ? If there is space, you may have to add spacers to both sides - this will bring in the sprocket slightly.

Other option is to try and get a 3/32 freewheel, and run a standard 8 speed chain. Standard chains flex more laterally than a 1/8 chain


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

fossyant said:


> What hub is it. It looks like a road hub for a freewheel.
> 
> Has the wheel been built to ss with correct dishing ?
> 
> ...




Ermmmmm I'm not sure tbh but I'll look tonight 

What sprocket and from where would you knowledgable peeps suggest ?


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## PpPete (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> Ermmmmm I'm not sure tbh but I'll look tonight
> 
> What sprocket and from where would you knowledgable peeps suggest ?



If you are on a budget :
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/shacklewell-components
cheap & quick IME
don't know what the durability of his freewheels is like, but his fixed sprockets have always been fine for me.


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## mickle (27 Jul 2011)

Just to clarify - the chain jumping problem was caused by use of incompatible components; a narrow 3/16" chain on an 1/8th sprocket.

A slightly imperfect chain line may make a racket and cause premature transmission wear but it won't throw the chain. 

Because, after all, multi-speed deraillieur systems rarely run with a perfect chain line.

nb. It is possible however to run an 1/8th chain on a 3/16" sprocket and/or chain ring.


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

PpPete said:


> If you are on a budget :
> http://stores.ebay.c...well-components
> cheap & quick IME
> don't know what the durability of his freewheels is like, but his fixed sprockets have always been fine for me.



At that price I could get one of each :-)


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## Red Light (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> Chain is brand new
> 
> Sprocket however is far from new



That's your problem then. Just like on derailleur gears, a new chain on a worn sprocket will ride up and slip.

As for chainline you really should get your head round it because you ought to get it right on a derailleur geared bike as well. The chainline should be straight in the middle ring and middle of the rear block.


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

Red Light said:


> That's your problem then. Just like on derailleur gears, a new chain on a worn sprocket will ride up and slip.
> 
> As for chainline you really should get your head round it because you ought to get it right on a derailleur geared bike as well. The chainline should be straight in the middle ring and middle of the rear block.




What's a middle ring ? Lol :-)


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## Red Light (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> What's a middle ring ? Lol :-)



Sort of like Middle Earth* but more ringy.

* a place of epic struggles.


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## fossyant (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> What's a middle ring ? Lol :-)



It's something that girls have fitted to their bikes, or mucky MTB'ers !


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

fossyant said:


> It's something that girls have fitted to their bikes, or mucky MTB'ers !




I've heard of these things

Must investigate


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## fossyant (27 Jul 2011)

What a middle ring or a mucky MTB ?  

Almost as bad as a compact !!! Shush - might have to get a compact if I want to carry on cycling in the hills, especially steep ones.


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

Right , the hub only says shimano 

Here's a pic if it helps ?


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (27 Jul 2011)

watched the vid again, personally, my priority would be chain line, take out a link, then order a new freewheel.


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## gaz (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> Right , the hub only says shimano
> 
> Here's a pic if it helps ?


Chains a bit slack


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## Red Light (27 Jul 2011)

gb155 said:


> I've heard of these things
> 
> Must investigate



What? Girls?


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

gaz said:


> Chains a bit slack



At least I know the issue now

PHEW !


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## gb155 (27 Jul 2011)

Red Light said:


> What? Girls?



Nahhhhh....I go for WOMEN


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## gb155 (30 Jul 2011)

Been offered some new brakes, 55-65 reach, will they fit? 

I never knew they have different reach ones

Still waiting for sprocket


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## gb155 (31 Jul 2011)

Ermmm. the chain isnt 1/8th

There was the issue

The new sprocket isnt 1/8th either

Problem solved (Once it arrives)


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## gb155 (9 Aug 2011)

I'm
Having to squeeze the frame together to get the wheel on , causing the wheel to be not straight , do I need a longer axel ?


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## fossyant (9 Aug 2011)

Pop some washers on both sides - ideally inbetween the two cones. If it has horizontal drop outs then you can adjust how it sits in the frame, if not, then deffo the washers.

Make sure it's sitting dead centre - so one side may need more if the axel isn't centred on hub. Check sentering at the chainstay bridge (near BB) and the brake bridge.

This is assuming the axel is still long enough to get the nuts on !


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## gb155 (9 Aug 2011)

fossyant said:


> Pop some washers on both sides - ideally inbetween the two cones. If it has horizontal drop outs then you can adjust how it sits in the frame, if not, then deffo the washers.
> 
> Make sure it's sitting dead centre - so one side may need more if the axel isn't centred on hub. Check sentering at the chainstay bridge (near BB) and the brake bridge.
> 
> This is assuming the axel is still long enough to get the nuts on !




Would getting a " proper " SS wheel be a better bet ?


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## fossyant (9 Aug 2011)

Not necessarily.

Your frame should be 130mm if made in last 20 years. SS hub/axels are usually 120mm (whish would make the situation worse). I can only assume the current axel is a 126mm road axel - as that DA hub pre-dates my 7400 series stuff, that went to 130mm when 8 speed was launched.

How much are you squeezing the frame ?


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## gb155 (9 Aug 2011)

fossyant said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> Your frame should be 130mm if made in last 20 years. SS hub/axels are usually 120mm (whish would make the situation worse). I can only assume the current axel is a 126mm road axel - as that DA hub pre-dates my 7400 series stuff, that went to 130mm when 8 speed was launched.
> 
> How much are you squeezing the frame ?




Quite a bit tbh mate


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (9 Aug 2011)

gb155 said:


> Quite a bit tbh mate



velosolo have the 'proper' spacers, but like fossy says, washers are good enough. velosolo also has some useful explanations on ss and fixe conversions.


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## gb155 (10 Aug 2011)

Quick question

Didn't have a fettle last night as was watching the mcr riots on tv and checking in with some friend

But I did have a thought - could the reason for the wheel being not straight be because it's not far enough back in the drop outs ?


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2011)

Not really - you slide the drive side back to tension the chain, then slide the non drive back to align the wheel. With a fixed you tend to 'walk' the axel back.

If you get the wheel aligned right bang on middle between the chain stays (rim/tyre in the middle) - i.e. at the bottom bracket, then check to see if the wheel sits bang in the middle of the brake bridge - if it doesn't then you need spacers if the wheel won't align.


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## gb155 (10 Aug 2011)

fossyant said:


> Not really - you slide the drive side back to tension the chain, then slide the non drive back to align the wheel. With a fixed you tend to 'walk' the axel back.
> 
> If you get the wheel aligned right bang on middle between the chain stays (rim/tyre in the middle) - i.e. at the bottom bracket, then check to see if the wheel sits bang in the middle of the brake bridge - if it doesn't then you need spacers if the wheel won't align.




Ok mate - thanks - will fettle later

Gaz


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## gb155 (10 Aug 2011)

Can't get my head round this

This is how it looks after being fixed in place , having tightened the drive side first 







The axel only just pokes through the drop outs when not tighten , when one side is tightened then the frame needs to be squeezed on the other side a lot to get the axel into the drop outs and the nut on it


Axel






Drop outs










This causes my chain line to FAIL :-)


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## fossyant (10 Aug 2011)

Gaz get the chain on first before taking pics. Pic 1 is a fail.


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## gb155 (11 Aug 2011)

fossyant said:


> Gaz get the chain on first before taking pics. Pic 1 is a fail.




Erm - the chain is on mate ?



What's causing pic 1 ? I just can't get my head around it at all - spacers needed ?


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2011)

gaz, can you take a picture without the wheel in? down the length of the bike, just so we can check the stays/frame aren't twisted.

edit: then with the wheel in but not tightened.


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## gb155 (11 Aug 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> gaz, can you take a picture without the wheel in? down the length of the bike, just so we can check the stays/frame aren't twisted.
> 
> edit: then with the wheel in but not tightened.




Sure 

Will do it tonight mate

Thanks for your assistance


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## fossyant (11 Aug 2011)

Looking at the picture, it looks as though the non drive side does not have enough spacers in. It looks like the wheel is dished to be in the middle of the hub, but if you measure the end of the cone nuts to the hub flange, it looks from the picture that there is more space on the drive side - both should be the same measurement- end of cones to hub flange.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2011)

fyi,

my brommie has an offset dishing to allow for the fold, so when i replace the rims (i build em myself), the 1st thing i do is make sure the chain alignment is spot on (i always remove the axle for a really good cleaning of the hub gears, no fancy verniers in my house...lol), THEN, i worry about dishing the rim to the offset, have i explained that right?

it's difficult to tell, but the frame looks twisted, this is probably because you are pulling the stays in more than usual. might be able to tell with requested piccies.


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## gb155 (12 Aug 2011)

Noticed the wheel on my carbon has this






So I gave it a go and bingo






So I assume I need a spacer thing - quick release also made it much more simple - can I change my other wheel to QR ? And is QR ok to use on a SS? 

Thanks Edit : is this a good chainline too ?


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## Rob3rt (12 Aug 2011)

Chain line is still off a bit, move it onto the next sproket.Also dont know if its just the angle but wheel still doesnt look right in the middle of the chain stays.


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## gb155 (12 Aug 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> Chain line is still off a bit, move it onto the next sproket.Also dont know if its just the angle but wheel still doesnt look right in the middle of the chain stays.




With this wheel the angle can be moved - with the other it just can't 

Can I add a QR to a SS ?


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## gb155 (12 Aug 2011)

[QUOTE 1478329"]Take it to your LBS. Fifteen quid will save you weeks of uploaded photos and questions.[/quote]


£15 or £160? :0) 

I'd love to get the knowledge myself tbh - what would the lbs do ?


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## fossyant (12 Aug 2011)

Your missus is going to kill you with all these bikes and bits in the lounge. Probably on borrowed time now.


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## gb155 (12 Aug 2011)

fossyant said:


> Your missus is going to kill you with all these bikes and bits in the lounge. Probably on borrowed time now.




If she was here right now then I'd agree  

Ahhh it's blissful right now

Well - it will be once I deal with this damn wheel :-(


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## Pennine-Paul (12 Aug 2011)

Thinking back 10 years when I built my first s/s I had all the same issues as you

The axle was too short on the s/s wheel,chainline was out,chain would skip when

riding,wheel would pull over when riding,must have played about for hours and hours with

spacers on the axle,moving the wheel about on the axle as it was'nt centred correctly

Squeezing the stays together thinking one side was twisted

Finally got it set up and it was fine for about 2000miles 

When the rear wheel finally died I splashed out on a specific wheel with a flip flop hub

Only had to fit a 3mm spacer behind the cog and bolt the wheel in,

wished I'd bought the flipflop wheel in the first place


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## gb155 (13 Aug 2011)

Pennine-Paul said:


> Thinking back 10 years when I built my first s/s I had all the same issues as you
> 
> The axle was too short on the s/s wheel,chainline was out,chain would skip when
> 
> ...




That's sort of what I assumed


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