# Cycling on ice



## Sam Kennedy (17 Dec 2009)

So it looks like it will be my first time cycling on ice tomorrow 
From what I've read, I should go slower, not use the front brake, and not get out the saddle.

I was wondering, would letting air out the tyres make cycling on ice better or worse? How much air should I let out?


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (17 Dec 2009)

on an mtb, you should be ok. run the chunkiest tyres you have, at the lowest tyre pressure you can get away with. be prepared to do motocross style slides to help with grip. if you are on a roady, i wouldn't risk it unless you have no other choice. i went out earlier on my brommie and had very little control and i'm quite good at mtb skills in the slippy shitty mud we have up here all year round.


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## GrasB (17 Dec 2009)

shauncollier said:


> on an mtb, you should be ok. run the chunkiest tyres you have, at the lowest tyre pressure you can get away with. be prepared to do motocross style slides to help with grip. if you are on a roady, *i wouldn't risk it unless you have no other choice*. i went out earlier on my brommie and had very little control and i'm quite good at mtb skills in the slippy shitty mud we have up here all year round.


+1 unless you have studded tyres on anything excluding a trike really.

Oddly you'll typically find me out of the saddle at 40-60ppm on a 80 to 90" gear as I tend to find I have better balance & control of my pedal pressure like that. I also don't roll the bike from side to side but rather keep smooth consistent pedal pressure. As you say, do not use the front brake.


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## ufkacbln (17 Dec 2009)

This is not me, but I have the same machine (Catrike Expedition) and you get the gist...



I would not be without the Trike as it enables me to ride in conditions I would never consider on two wheels


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## 4F (17 Dec 2009)

I will ride in 60 mph gusting winds, but not ice


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## BrumJim (18 Dec 2009)

Roadie on the Road on ice today.

OK, well gritted main roads ONLY, but still arrived safely.

Will post later if I get home OK. Otherwise, please send flowers to Selly Oak Hospital A&E.


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## swee'pea99 (18 Dec 2009)

I've always said I Don't Do Ice, period. But sometimes you don't fully know what you're getting into till you're out there. This morning proved to be a lot icier than I'd anticipated, and on a fixie, with spds, on slicks, it was all a bit...well, interesting. I don't think I'd make a habit of it (and I'm not greatly looking forward to the run home tonight).


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## I am Spartacus (18 Dec 2009)

Are you going out 'looking' for ice to ride on?

Is it worth the risk of a crash even slo speed and a bruised sore hip for weeks...? 
Up to you


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## Chrisc (18 Dec 2009)

Used the motorbike today...ooer missus..
Let a bit of air out to increase the contact patch. Till you can squash it with your thumb fairly easily.


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## Globalti (18 Dec 2009)

The Inuit have about 50 words for different types of snow and ice; you also need to learn to descriminate between what's a rideable quality and what's not. Basically anything rough or soft will give your tyres grip but smooth water ice will not and you could break a wrist or a hip, so don't do it. Really. You can't stay upright on smooth sheet water ice.

There's no point in deflating tyres as harder tyres will dig down and find more grip. Narrower tyres are better for the same reason - this is why a 1948 Land Rover Series 1 with tiddly narrow wheels is better on slippery ground than a high-tech Range Rover. The idea about deflating tyres is bollocks, you reduce the ground pressure and make it more likely that you will skid.


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## Steve Austin (18 Dec 2009)

DON'T DO IT.

You can't ride on ice.


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## adscrim (18 Dec 2009)

Rigid Raider said:


> The Inuit have about 50 words for different types of snow and ice;



That's an urban myth.

I'd avoid going out on ice if at all possible.


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## swee'pea99 (18 Dec 2009)

They have 50 different words for beer.


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## Globalti (18 Dec 2009)

I bet the Alpine French, Swiss or Germans have about 10 different words for different qualities of snow and ice. Given time I reckon I could give you them too.


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## HJ (18 Dec 2009)

Just keep to the main roads which should be gritted and you'll be fine, just take it easy, give your self time, don't brake or turn sharply. Just common sense really.


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## ufkacbln (18 Dec 2009)

Not to re-open the IPod arguments, but listening to the wheels helps, there is a difference between normal road, a hiss with frost and an eerie silence with ice. Just helps to ride appropriately.


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## Arch (18 Dec 2009)

HJ said:


> *Just keep to the main roads which should be gritted *and you'll be fine, just take it easy, give your self time, don't brake or turn sharply. Just common sense really.



That's good advice, but it leaves me 100 yards from home and wondering how to reach my front door....


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## Arch (18 Dec 2009)

Or indeed, how to get to the main road, from work. Enormous bunny hop?


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## Chrisc (18 Dec 2009)

Letting air out the tyres is not bollocks, it works by lengthening the contact patch increasing available grip. Like a snow shoe, more surface area = more grip by spreading the load. Same principle is employed in trials riding, 4psi, squashy tyre, shitloads of grip. High pressure, no grip.
Inuit have precisely one word for snow, they just use others to describe what it's doing, falling, lying, drifting etc.


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## skudupnorth (18 Dec 2009)

Dragged the mountain bike out with lower pressure in the tyres,great on the white stuff but terrible on the clear main roads..felt like i was treading mud ! Had the joy of tearing up virgin snow in the works car park though !


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## swee'pea99 (19 Dec 2009)

Chrisc said:


> Letting air out the tyres is not bollocks, it works by lengthening the contact patch increasing available grip. Like a snow shoe, more surface area = more grip by spreading the load. Same principle is employed in trials riding, 4psi, squashy tyre, shitloads of grip. High pressure, no grip.
> Inuit have precisely one word for snow, they just use others to describe what it's doing, falling, lying, drifting etc.


You sound disturbingly like a chap who knows what he's talking about. 
Are you sure you're in the right place?


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## Sheffield_Tiger (19 Dec 2009)

Ice? Easy. Just don't do wheelies!

I once worked at a bike distributor who tried to specialise in producing corporate bikes...nice idea, bad business plan, it went bust.

One of their clients were the Sheffield Steelers, and they wanted the bike showing off to fans in the interval between the quarters or whatever the gaps between play are called.

Anyway, they let me have a practice ride after training..riding on the ice rik..easy! it was all churned up anyway by the skates.

Then came the night of the game. They only went and polished the ice before I got on there! Just about held it, then the commentator pretty much insisted on a wheelie....me one end of the rink, the bike right at the other end.

Thankfully all that was bruised was my ego.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (19 Dec 2009)

skudupnorth said:


> Dragged the mountain bike out with lower pressure in the tyres,great on the white stuff but terrible on the clear main roads..felt like i was treading mud ! Had the joy of tearing up virgin snow in the works car park though !



Not tempted with fun in a RWD czechmobile then? (Guessing from the username which I am sure I have seen elsewhere in such a context)


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## Steve Austin (19 Dec 2009)

Chrisc said:


> Letting air out the tyres is not bollocks, it works by lengthening the contact patch increasing available grip. Like a snow shoe, more surface area = more grip by spreading the load. Same principle is employed in trials riding, 4psi, squashy tyre, shitloads of grip.



yep that seems to work great in this video i found. huge contact area. Just look at the truck grip. no loss of traction to be seen here 

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/247749/


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## Globalti (19 Dec 2009)

Chrisc said:


> Letting air out the tyres is not bollocks, it works by lengthening the contact patch increasing available grip. Like a snow shoe, more surface area = more grip by spreading the load. Same principle is employed in trials riding, 4psi, squashy tyre, shitloads of grip. High pressure, no grip.
> Inuit have precisely one word for snow, they just use others to describe what it's doing, falling, lying, drifting etc.



Yes, you air the tyres down in trials but that's not the same as riding in snow. In trials you are asking a small patch of rubber to grip all kinds of surfaces and shapes, edges, bars, points, etc. You need your tyre to be able to wrap around and grab as much contact as possible. 

If you drive a car or a bike on snow or soft mud you will soon find that the bigger the contact area, the less the grip. Why do you think rally cars have such narrow tyres for winter conditions?







It's all about achieving maximum ground pressure; you need a narrow tyre pumped up really hard to bite down and find grip. I even have personal experience of this where I used to trial in my Land Rover on private land in very muddy conditions - my old-fashioned narrow Michelin XCLs would grip well when the posers in the tricked up vehicles with huge fat tyres were constantly getting stuck because their ground pressure was so low. Some really wide tyres would even build up a bow wave of mud and get bogged rather than cut through. 

And yes, I have no doubt that the Inuit have only one word for falling snow and many for different conditions of snow; that was my very point - cyclists riding in snow need to learn to distinguish between what will give grip and what won't. Skiers are the same - they call snow snow when it's falling but there are half a dozen words I can think of, which describe fallen snow for its *skiing qualities*.


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## Chrisc (19 Dec 2009)

Yes but we're talking about bikes here not rally cars. I know they use narrow tyres to cut through but you'll never achieve those pressures on a bicycle. Not enough weight so the best way to go, just like when I ride my enduro mototcycle in deep snow, is to reduce tyre pressure and go over rather than through it. It works, I've done it for years.


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## Steve Austin (19 Dec 2009)

Have you ridden a mtb in snow? I use narrow tyres pumped up hard in snow (schwalbe black shark muds 1.5 and conti xc 1.5 fwiw), but the OP hasn't asked about snow....

Riding on ice on a bike(cycle) isn't possible without falling off. It makes no difference how hard the tyres are.

Having ridden trials, motocross, and many other motorbikes i understand a fair bit about tyre pressures, and i agree that adjusting this can affect grip, BUT how is this relevant to bicycles and riding on ICE.

I'll stick by my line, you can't ride a bicycle on ice.


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## Chrisc (19 Dec 2009)

I agree. I'm talking about snow here. Got off the op's question there didn't we. 
On sheet ice forget it. You need studded tyres or you can't do it. 
On snotty roads tho the small pressure drop still acts to increase your contact patch so more grip. Too much tho and it will be like riding thru treacle!


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## fudgedog (19 Dec 2009)

No matter how good you are on a bike if you hit black ice your off before any "skills" save the day. Trust me I fell off a couple of weeks ago and my shoulder and wrist are still sore and the large scab on my hip just fell off yesterday.


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## jig-sore (19 Dec 2009)

Steve Austin said:


> I'll stick by my line, you can't ride a bicycle on ice.



!??!?


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## Globalti (19 Dec 2009)

Yeah but have you see the website that picture came from?

www.suicideridersholland.net

(It's true that you can't ride on sheer, clean sheet water ice, I'm sure all MTBers know that with painful memories. However as soon as the ice has taken a bit of a texture, through extra snow falling and freezing on top for example, it becomes possible with great care.)


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## jig-sore (19 Dec 2009)

ha ha, your link doesn't work !!! but them I'm thick for expecting it to


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## GrasB (19 Dec 2009)

Steve Austin said:


> I'll stick by my line, you can't ride a bicycle on ice.


Riding on ice is okay if you have appropriate tyres... Sure you can't absolutely hammer it but you can ride around with reasonable confidence as long as you give consideration to the conditions.


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## Sysagent (19 Dec 2009)

No way am I pedalling out there on 23mm tyres with a 110psi in them...

I am just weighing up wether or not to prep the good old ETSX-70 up for a ride out there, last time I went on my mountain bike though it was like being on a bus, not so sure yet and it is bloody freezing.


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## Arch (19 Dec 2009)

BTW, every time I see this thread I think it's a plug for ITV's latest celebrity contest. Should we pitch it to someone?


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## Stephenite (19 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> Riding on ice is okay if you have appropriate tyres... Sure you can't absolutely hammer it but you can ride around with reasonable confidence as long as you give consideration to the conditions.



They're what i use.  700 x 40 version. A very confident ride. I've done about 100km of ice and snow on them so far and not one slip.

You have them too??

ps torvill & dean outriggers aren't available in the shop.


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## GrasB (19 Dec 2009)

Yeah, 700x35s as 40s get a little close to my frame for clearance with mudguards. The only issue I have is when you reach their limit you're completely gone, no middle ground. Sourcing them in the UK can be interesting at time,s I've tended to source them via Germany.


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## addictfreak (19 Dec 2009)

My road bike will be tucked away until the ice clears.

Mtb will be out though. Had great fun last year trying to negoiate the cliff top path between Seaburn and South Shields on my way to work. Sheet ice all the way, just could not stay on the bike. Decide to get off and push, promptly fell flat on my arse with bike on top of me. But it was a glorious morning!


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## Midnight (19 Dec 2009)

At first I thought this thread was about a new t.v. prog...  

But, yeah, did my first 10m on snow/slushy stuff today and have to say it wasn't as bad as I'd anticipated. Fitted M+'s in sept and they coped really well with only a couple of minor slips.

Only problem is, on a Defy4 the M+ don't leave room for mudguards - only 2mm clearance!


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## Stephenite (19 Dec 2009)

I've got about 2mm between tyre and guard. This fills up with snow after 2 yards. Good training, s'pose.


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## GrasB (19 Dec 2009)

Ah, while 42-622 will fit in the frame they have negative clearance on the 'guards


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## BrumJim (19 Dec 2009)

Oh, and I did get back safetly last night. No need to worry any more. Oh, you weren't?


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## Stephenite (19 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> Ah, while 42-622 will fit in the frame they have negative clearance on the 'guards



I have them on a cx - Kona jake the snake - with Raceblades, i think (the guys in the LBS, and myself, tried 3 different 'guards and i got confused as to which was which).

ps Glad you're safe n sound jim. enjoyed the trip i hope


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## Armegatron (19 Dec 2009)

First time cycling on sheet ice (nigh on an ice rink) yesterday. I managed to turn a corner, and ride a few hundred meters down the road (complacency might have led me to ride faster as I got further down the road) before I was distracted by kids poised with snowballs. Ended up loosing concentration, and before I knew it I was sliding along the ice for about 10ft still attached to the bike. Luckily I managed to get up and walk the rest of the way home, but while trying to stand the bike back up both me and it were slipping all over. 

Im still slightly brused but no lasting damage done. Its a lesson learnt for me to not ride if the roads are that bad. 

If it helps I was on 700x37c @ about 70psi. If I wasnt in pain / embarrased at the time Id have let some air out and tried again.


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## Clamson (19 Dec 2009)

I was riding around yesterday through the worst of it, but only for fun, not commuting. I had a great time but you really need your wits about you.

None of it was pure sheet ice, but a mixture of snow and 'rough' ice. On my hybrid, it was great fun!


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## summerdays (20 Dec 2009)

the anorak said:


> ha ha, your link doesn't work !!! but them I'm thick for expecting it to



I'm so thick I hadn't worked that out for myself despite searching for possible alternatives when I couldn't get the link to work


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## Ian H (20 Dec 2009)

It's fairly uncommon to find extensive areas of hard shiny ice on roads. If it crunches you can easily ride over it (you can ride over it if it doesn't, but that does require more care). We were out yesterday with no ill-effects. Round here there are lots of ungritted lanes, and they're great fun in Winter. The only time I swap from road bike to ancient mtb is when the snow's deep enough to stop the former.


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## Chrisc (20 Dec 2009)




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## HJ (20 Dec 2009)

Steve Austin said:


> DON'T DO IT.
> 
> You can't ride on ice.



People from countries with real winters, don't agree with you, have a look at this web site icebike.com, any one for studded tyres? 

There is an absurdly negative attitude to cycling in the UK, even among cyclists...


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## BlueDog (20 Dec 2009)

It’s such a beautiful day I decided to put on my warm togs, fill the flask with soup and get out there. 

After getting no more than 5 yards from my house, I found out the hard way that council don’t grit or salt the road outside. Ouch! No real pain, just an embarrassing fall in front of the neighbours finished off with a wobbly walk back to the garage . 

Don’t do it!


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## cyberknight (20 Dec 2009)

Checked out route conditions for monday and it looks decidedly dodgy , - 6 at 9 am with untreated roads .hate to try it at 6 am with no street lights.

The last 2 days of work this yera will probably be car jobs so i know i willnot spend x mas in traction.


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## Jaye (20 Dec 2009)

Took delivery of new spesh hybrid a few days back and have been itching to get out on it. I couldn't resist any longer and ventured out to my local B&Q store this A.M it was glorious out their  and the main roads were ice free. Hence my complacency which caused me to go a*#e over elbow on some ice just shy of my destination. 

Result is
1 sore and cut thumb
1 tender wrist
1 slightly bruised shoulder 
And 1 cyclist who was petrified all the way home and has learnt his lesson  
Leave the ice for skaters and vodka 

As for the bike it appears to be just a broken bar end thankfully.

Take care out their gang.


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## zacklaws (20 Dec 2009)

Commuted home from work this morning, temperature -6.5C at 0700. 

I had to pour warm water over the gear changers and brakes to defrost them and spray with WD40 as they were solid before I set off. My rear light would not turn on as the switch had froze inside, even though it was dry, so I had to strip it down, One of my gloves kept freezing to the handlebars, my moustache kept freezing over and I had to keep twitching my face otherwise it became painfull to do so if I left it too long as it pulled the hairs being matted together. My hands were frozen, so much for Altura Night vision gloves. I could not change gear on the front deraileur as it became froze over.

Managed to get home with no drama's apart from my backend wanting to overtake the front going downhill.


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## GrasB (20 Dec 2009)

Ian H said:


> It's fairly uncommon to find extensive areas of hard shiny ice on roads. If it crunches you can easily ride over it (you can ride over it if it doesn't, but that does require more care). We were out yesterday with no ill-effects. Round here there are lots of ungritted lanes, and they're great fun in Winter. The only time I swap from road bike to ancient mtb is when the snow's deep enough to stop the former.


It's not so much large amounts of it, it's more like where it is. I rode up a back road that has a short sections, sub 20 meter, at over 10%. The road was covered in packed snow... With the studded tyres on I just got out the saddle & climbed... love to see climb that on normal road tyres. Black ice? Not a problem but it was for the people in front & behind me though, thankfully they were in a cars.


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## Jaye (20 Dec 2009)

zacklaws said:


> Commuted home from work this morning, temperature -6.5C at 0700.
> 
> I had to pour warm water over the gear changers and brakes to defrost them and spray with WD40 as they were solid before I set off. My rear light would not turn on as the switch had froze inside, even though it was dry, so I had to strip it down, One of my gloves kept freezing to the handlebars, my moustache kept freezing over and I had to keep twitching my face otherwise it became painfull to do so if I left it too long as it pulled the hairs being matted together. My hands were frozen, so much for Altura Night vision gloves. I could not change gear on the front deraileur as it became froze over.
> 
> Managed to get home with no drama's apart from my backend wanting to overtake the front going downhill.




Crikey old bean I take my hat off to you. That shows extreme courage, daring, dauntlessness, indomitability and 1 massive set of balls either that are you're mad as a bag of snakes.

Was you wearing asbestos underwear?


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## johnr (20 Dec 2009)

zacklaws said:


> Commuted home from work this morning, temperature -6.5C at 0700.
> 
> I had to pour warm water over the gear changers and brakes to defrost them and spray with WD40 as they were solid before I set off. My rear light would not turn on as the switch had froze inside, even though it was dry, so I had to strip it down, One of my gloves kept freezing to the handlebars, my moustache kept freezing over and I had to keep twitching my face otherwise it became painfull to do so if I left it too long as it pulled the hairs being matted together. My hands were frozen, so much for Altura Night vision gloves. I could not change gear on the front deraileur as it became froze over.
> 
> Managed to get home with no drama's apart from my backend wanting to overtake the front going downhill.



My hero . I'm off home to south cave in a couple of hours... but it's a lot warmer now than it was...


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## swee'pea99 (20 Dec 2009)

zacklaws said:


> Commuted home from work this morning, temperature -6.5C at 0700.
> 
> I had to pour warm water over the gear changers and brakes to defrost them and spray with WD40 as they were solid before I set off. My rear light would not turn on as the switch had froze inside, even though it was dry, so I had to strip it down, One of my gloves kept freezing to the handlebars, my moustache kept freezing over and I had to keep twitching my face otherwise it became painfull to do so if I left it too long as it pulled the hairs being matted together. My hands were frozen, so much for Altura Night vision gloves. I could not change gear on the front deraileur as it became froze over.
> 
> Managed to get home with no drama's apart from my backend wanting to overtake the front going downhill.


Lunatic.
Bonkers.
Mad as a bucketful of frogs.

Pick one.


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## Paulus (20 Dec 2009)

zacklaws said:


> Commuted home from work this morning, temperature -6.5C at 0700.
> 
> I had to pour warm water over the gear changers and brakes to defrost them and spray with WD40 as they were solid before I set off. My rear light would not turn on as the switch had froze inside, even though it was dry, so I had to strip it down, One of my gloves kept freezing to the handlebars, my moustache kept freezing over and I had to keep twitching my face otherwise it became painfull to do so if I left it too long as it pulled the hairs being matted together. My hands were frozen, so much for Altura Night vision gloves. I could not change gear on the front deraileur as it became froze over.
> 
> Managed to get home with no drama's apart from my backend wanting to overtake the front going downhill.





Dedication above and beyond the call of duty. Why put yourself through such torture?


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## Globalti (21 Dec 2009)

I'll be out for the Wednesday night club ride. I think I'll put some beartrap pedals on the bike though because last time I rode in snow the SPDs got clogged with ice and stopped working.

Night riding in snow with an HID light is fantastic fun!


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## Armegatron (21 Dec 2009)

Rigid Raider said:


> I'll be out for the Wednesday night club ride. I think I'll put some beartrap pedals on the bike though because last time I rode in snow the SPDs got clogged with ice and stopped working.
> 
> Night riding in snow with an HID light is fantastic fun!



Might give this a try tonight


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## MacB (21 Dec 2009)

Paulus said:


> Dedication above and beyond the call of duty. Why put yourself through such torture?



I reckon it's for the buzz, may be hell during but afterwards you feel like Superman. Though I don't think he should have worn his pants on the outside while commuting


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## zophiel (21 Dec 2009)

It probably is the buzz. I swapped to the old bso sorted some lights and did the snow/ice commute today and it was so much fun. Very technical, not just a straight sprint up the hills to work. Coming back was fun too, in the dark loads of light reflections. 

The roads were all a right mess. Cars parked all over lol.


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## zacklaws (21 Dec 2009)

Well I've commuted everyday this week and managed to stay on. This morning and last night was a struggle on the cycle path, the snow has become that frozen it is hard to break a way through it so gave up and went onto the road.

I've found that the best way is to start in a lower gear than normal, find a pace your comfortable and feel safe with, initially your back wheel may have a tendency to spin or slide sideways on occasions but just change up a gear and keep the same pace untill you find a gear where all the sliding etc stops. If you go past the sweet spot though it then becomes a struggle to push through the snow unless you speed up which makes it become a bit dodgy.

Tried a different pair of gloves instead of the Altura Night Vision and found them far better. "Alpinestar chill", there designed for moto cross etc but Chain Reaction sell them for MTB riders. I've had mine a long time but never liked them because they are a tight fit. But yesterday and today I found out how good they are, my hands were warm to start with and throughout the ride unlike the Night visions, plus the liner is sewn in.


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## kewb (22 Dec 2009)

tore my jkt last night after coming off on a country road ,
got stuck in frozen tyre tracks and went sideways ripped my jkt at pocket grrr .


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## Midnight (22 Dec 2009)

Came off last night on ice and bashed my hip. Wasn't seriously injured but am cycling with a limp today  .

I'm beginning to thing it's not worth it in this weather. Yeah, I know in other countries they manage in even worse conditions, but in Britain we always get the wrong sort of snow...


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## Stephenite (22 Dec 2009)

Midnight said:


> Came off last night on ice and bashed my hip. Wasn't seriously injured but am cycling with a limp today  .
> 
> I'm beginning to thing it's not worth it in this weather. Yeah, I know in other countries they manage in even worse conditions, but in Britain we always get the wrong sort of snow...



I manage it here in norway fine (on a Kona Jake The Snake with Schwalbe Marathon Winter 700x40 tyres), but maybe in the UK it would be a different story.

When the temperature is hovering around zero new ice is formed all the time.

It does help with proper tyres though. All vehicles in this country are required to have winter tyres from October through til April. Bicycles are exempt but it's foolhardy to not have them equipped. It isnt often you see/hear a commuter, or anyone riding further afield, without studded tyres.

I've seen a few discussions on here about which tyres to use for snow and/or ice, but they seem to be discussing which tyres are _least unsuitable_ for the conditions rather than which are _best suited. _

Anyway,
Hope your (and everyone elses) injuries heal soon.
Merry xmas.


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## Chrisc (22 Dec 2009)

Stephenite said:


> I manage it here in norway fine (on a Kona Jake The Snake with Schwalbe Marathon Winter 700x40 tyres), but maybe in the UK it would be a different story.
> 
> When the temperature is hovering around zero new ice is formed all the time.
> 
> ...



Interesting tyres. Plenty of grip on the ice?


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## Stephenite (23 Dec 2009)

Chrisc said:


> Interesting tyres. Plenty of grip on the ice?



Not one slip after 50-60km. You still have to be careful tho.

Back wheel has slipped when standing and going up steep hills. Sit down again and they're fine.


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## palinurus (23 Dec 2009)

I've been riding carefully this week, picking the routes most likely to be clear of ice, walking where unsure, even got the train twice.

But i've seen a good few types on supermarket MTBs managing on pavements with lumpy polished ice that I can barely walk on. How do they do that?


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## Globalti (23 Dec 2009)

You can ride almost anything and get surprising traction and braking with a pair of knobblies, I use Panaracer Fire XC pros in 1.8 and they're pretty good, the treads seem to scour down into the snow when I brake. The only problem is when your wheels hit the edge of a rut left by a car tyre; that can have you off.


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## andrew_s (23 Dec 2009)

If you can walk on ice, you can ride a bike on it.
You just have to take it slowly and carefully. Pay attention, steer very gently, and don't do silly things like try to look behind. Slowly can mean walking speed.
In the pub last night, they said I'd never ride up the pitch back to the village - they had had to walk on the verge, and there were 2 cars abandoned in the hedge (one a 4x4). No problems.


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## Chrisc (23 Dec 2009)

Just been out and the first 1/4 mile from my house to the road is a farm track covered in compacted snow and ice. Didn't fall but very interesting. Am used to sliding around on dirt bikes but haven't done it under my own steam before. Did unclip my spd's just in case.


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## GrasB (23 Dec 2009)

Stephenite said:


> I've seen a few discussions on here about which tyres to use for snow and/or ice, but they seem to be discussing which tyres are _least unsuitable_ for the conditions rather than which are _best suited. _


I think the problem is people see best part of £70 going on a pair of tyres they only see being any good for a few weeks a year. From where I'm standing however the fact they deal with ice, especially the wet ice we have today as it's raining with patches of thick ice still on the road, they're earning their keep. In reality a tyre change when warm & light comes in at about 2min so why not use them only when the temp is predicted to be well below freezing? I'll get many winters out of my pair.


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## MacB (23 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> I think the problem is people see best part of £70 going on a pair of tyres they only see being any good for a few weeks a year. From where I'm standing however the fact they deal with ice, especially the wet ice we have today as it's raining with patches of thick ice still on the road, they're earning their keep. In reality a tyre change when warm & light comes in at about 2min so why not use them only when the temp is predicted to be well below freezing? I'll get many winters out of my pair.



I wonder about the attitude to tyres and prices, I take the view that it's my only contact with the road so want fit for purpose, with price being secondary. I know that many feel they've shot up in price but I've not been cycling long enough to be aware of this. I can only compare with the cost of all the other bike bits and, by that mark, they seem very reasonable. Look at things like shifters and STI's, I know they're very slick and all that. But we're talking a lever pivot for brakes and a ratchet/release for gears, hardly cutting edge.

I was taking the view that, for commuting, a new set of tyres each Autumn and Spring, around £140 for the year, seems ok. I don't know re wear on the Winter ones yet but the M+'s seem to wear very slowly, so more than a single year looks likely. I'll see how riding the Winters feels but they'd have to be diablical for me to consider taking them back off before Spring.

I've mentally allocated £300 a year in running costs for my commuter bike. This is a fraction of fuel or fares and less than a gym membership as well


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## Bodhbh (24 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> I think the problem is people see best part of £70 going on a pair of tyres they only see being any good for a few weeks a year. From where I'm standing however the fact they deal with ice, especially the wet ice we have today as it's raining with patches of thick ice still on the road, they're earning their keep. In reality a tyre change when warm & light comes in at about 2min so why not use them only when the temp is predicted to be well below freezing? I'll get many winters out of my pair.


I'm off the bike atm with an injury, but I went out hiking on Saturday and it was absolutely glorious - land covered in snow, perfect clear blue sky. The country roads were all ice and compressed snow.

I got thinking, I would loved to take a winding route over to Ivenhoe Beacon, 20 miles away, the highest point in the area and giving a great view over the surrounding countryside. For this I would have needed some spiked tires. The single gorgeous day and getting a day out on the bike it it would have been worth the cost of a pair of spiked tyres alone I think, nm communting use or whatever else.


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## MacB (24 Dec 2009)

Well, my Marathon winters have arrived and were very easy to fit, no levers required. Though I did need to use two plastic levers to get the M+'s off. One hiccup the rear tube blew on first re-inflation, but that was over confidence and rushing on my part. Replacement tube, in with a bit more care, and all setup and good. Going to give them a little turn in a while. Will be following the advice to give them 25ish miles on tarmac to bed the studs in. Main roads round here are pretty clear so that should do it, will report back.


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## Ian H (24 Dec 2009)

Just home, bathed and fed after a superb 100 miles out to Glastonbury and back. Ice? Oh yes, plenty of it, including a five mile stretch of full width compacted snow and slush. The ruts did encourage the front wheel to take little detours, but nothing terminally upsetting. I was on the old fixed - 64".


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## ianrauk (24 Dec 2009)

I am seriously thinking about getting a pair of these. I have a spare set of wheels so could put on and use as and when needed. Really peeved that I couldnt commute for 4 days this year because of ice and snow.




MacB said:


> Well, my Marathon winters have arrived and were very easy to fit, no levers required. Though I did need to use two plastic levers to get the M+'s off. One hiccup the rear tube blew on first re-inflation, but that was over confidence and rushing on my part. Replacement tube, in with a bit more care, and all setup and good. Going to give them a little turn in a while. Will be following the advice to give them 25ish miles on tarmac to bed the studs in. Main roads round here are pretty clear so that should do it, will report back.


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## MacB (24 Dec 2009)

Well just under 16 miles on the new Marathon Winters, average speed just under 13mph. Was taking it easy and this included some MOD roads so little regular traffic and no gritting etc. The tyres did what I expected on ice etc and were far better than I expected on tarmac. Ran them at 75psi and they felt as comfortable, and no slower than, the M+'s in 35mm that they replaced. Passed a guy wheelspinning a MTB going uphill, that was the only way I realised it was ice, I hadn't noticed. Only hairy moment was on the MOD roads as it was turning to slush and breaking up. I thought I was going down, my frantic overcompensation brought me back too far. So I slalomed for about 40 yards, I was genuinely surprised the tyres gripped at the angles they were leant over. Proceeded more carefully and they really don't like slush, squirmed a lot(think loose gravel feeling), but very controllable, though still tiring and needing focus. But no way would my normal tyres have kept me up, even serious knobblies might have struggled for grip. 

Verdict - my rough calcs indicate that I'll be able to tool along averaging about 14.5-15mph in regular conditions. They will grip on ice and perform heroics keeping me up on looser stuff. There's a bit of noise but not enough to annoy me. Unless they fall apart really quickly I see no reason not to run them the entire Winter. But can understand that if you're going from a lighter faster tyre then it may be too big a penalty to consider. Obviously clearance is an issue for some bikes as well.


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## andrew_s (24 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> I think the problem is people see best part of £70 going on a pair of tyres they only see being any good for a few weeks a year.



The narrowest studded tyres are 32mm, which is too wide to fit in the road bikes many people use. Buying a new bike for about a week a year's iciness is a bit more excessive than just keeping an extra set of tyres ready.


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## Piemaster (24 Dec 2009)

My reasoning why I bought the marathon winters. They cost me 79 euros delivered from bike 24 and they will probably spend 8-9 months hanging up in the garage. But if they save me time off work due to coming off, even a day, let alone something longer term they have more than paid for themselves.
Ok, I don't actually have to commute to work, I'm a 'utility' cyclist. But the bike is my first choice transport. The car is useful for leaning the bike against while I shut the garage door.


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## steve52 (25 Dec 2009)

i am of the sam opion re trye pressure on bicycles as ridged raider, it only makes for better grip on dragsters runing on smoth dry tarmac at 650 hp! and on trials bikes and they still have engines, for us cyclist it may help but im 52 and havent notied any differance other than i have to work harder with lower pressure


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## Ludwig (25 Dec 2009)

Under no circumstances should you ever contemplate cycling on ice. With so many roads not being treated and all the idiot car drivers about you are taking a big risk.


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## montage (25 Dec 2009)

I would say go and practise on ice a little bit...get used to how it feels under a controlled environment.


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## zacklaws (26 Dec 2009)

Ice was luverly this morning when I set off for work, bike slid out from underneath me when I tried to get on, and then when I did get on, I could not turn brake or steer, thought that I was going to carry on to the bottom of the street out of control, but found some untouched deep snow to slow down in, and that was all of in yards of my house. luckily main roads where OK


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## GrasB (26 Dec 2009)

andrew_s said:


> The narrowest studded tyres are 32mm, which is too wide to fit in the road bikes many people use. Buying a new bike for about a week a year's iciness is a bit more excessive than just keeping an extra set of tyres ready.


Are you trying to tell me most people with a 'proper' road bike don't have a hybrid or MTB hiding away? I say this as the only bike I've seen about which could be considered a 'proper' road bike is my Marin with studded tyres. Even the hard core roadies I see about have been on MTBs & most were amazed at the roads I was heading down. It seems very familiar... oh yeah this is what happened earlier this year with the long cold spell.



Ludwig said:


> Under no circumstances should you ever contemplate cycling on ice. With so many roads not being treated and all the idiot car drivers about you are taking a big risk.


What about those who drive around like they're in the middle of a tarmac rally on hot summer days? Should we not go out then? How about the people who ignore the fact it's raining & there's standing water everywhere? Should one not cycle then? IME when it's icy like it was the passed week it's one of the safest times to be on the bike if you have appropriate tyres as the majority of people are being super cautious.


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## andrew_s (26 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> Are you trying to tell me most people with a 'proper' road bike don't have a hybrid or MTB hiding away?


Many of them, if not actually most. A roadie may have an MTB, but why would they have a hybrid? MTBs are also fairly pointless in large areas of the country if you are happy riding on the road. Also bear in mind that if you don't have a garage, redundant bikes are likely to have been disposed of.
The work bike or winter bike is likely to be an old road bike. If you work on the basis that anything with drop handlebars won't take studded tyres you won't be far wrong, traditional touring bikes being fairly rare.


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## GrasB (27 Dec 2009)

andrew_s said:


> Many of them, if not actually most. A roadie may have an MTB, but why would they have a hybrid? MTBs are also fairly pointless in large areas of the country if you are happy riding on the road. Also bear in mind that if you don't have a garage, redundant bikes are likely to have been disposed of.
> The work bike or winter bike is likely to be an old road bike. If you work on the basis that anything with drop handlebars won't take studded tyres you won't be far wrong, traditional touring bikes being fairly rare.


Firstly what exactly is a hybrid? Well it's a bike that doesn't belong in one of the conventional categories. Most people think of leisure/city bikes as hybrids, but really they're not they have a name… leisure bikes! What I'm talking about is MTBs with narrow rims, semi-slicks & drops, the sporty city bikes which are just as fast as conventional road bike with flat bars & loads of clearance for big tyres & 'guards. 

My experience is the guys & gals who are out in all weathers, rather than fair weather rodies, have one of these tucked away. Maybe the fact people don't have an appropriate bike is the very excuse they need to justify to them selves why they're not going out on their bike. All I know is that when I was buying my 'road bike' one of the requirements was it could take wide tyres & full 'guards... at the same time. Oddly enough it wasn't to hard to find bikes which where near as damn it road bikes but for filled these requirements.


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## markg0vbr (27 Dec 2009)

I use one bike for every thing, go looking for ice to play on, the faster you go on ice the better 180 or 360 you can do, have slick Tye's, this helps drifting the back out on down hills.

just get a trice 




or stabilisersand ride


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## MacB (27 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> All I know is that when I was buying my 'road bike' one of the requirements was it could take wide tyres & full 'guards... at the same time. Oddly enough it wasn't to hard to find bikes which where near as damn it road bikes but for filled these requirements.



When searching for a new bike I've come to just this conclusion, but I did find that choices could be limited. I'm surprised by the lack of clearance on some bikes described as tourers/light tourers, max of 25-28mm tyres with guards seems usual. Even looking down the custom build, or framebuilders off the peg, options, clearances are small.


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## GrasB (27 Dec 2009)

This is where a knowledgeable LBS attendant who listens to you come into their own. Very quickly we narrowed down a list of bikes which met my requirements but none of them were 'classical' touring bikes, oddly they were all the more sporty hybrid city bikes that felt closer to road bikes & 'crossers.


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## MacB (27 Dec 2009)

GrasB said:


> This is where a knowledgeable LBS attendant who listens to you come into their own. Very quickly we narrowed down a list of bikes which met my requirements but none of them were 'classical' touring bikes, oddly they were all the more sporty hybrid city bikes that felt closer to road bikes & 'crossers.



Yep, I kind of got there by mistake with the Giant CRS Alliance, with the wheelset being the only significant weakness, IMO. It doesn't work well as a laden commuter(though different wheelset could solve a lot of that) but, stripped down, it's been great as a weekend bike. In fact, if I look at the new bike that has ticked all the boxes for me, it's surprisingly similar to the Giant. I've chosen a Van Nicholas Amazon, wanted a titanium bike, and it came down to the Amazon or the Yukon. The latter just lacked the necessary clearances and the fittings for v-brakes. They would have modified it for me but that would have just been chopping a Yukon to try and make it like an Amazon.

There's a few now that seem to offer the greater versatility, sticking points seem to be around brake types, clearance and bar diameters. I just wouldn't buy a bike now that didn't have decent clearance, it removes too many options.


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## GrasB (28 Dec 2009)

When I replace the Marin it's going to be built around a custom frame where I get to chose the clearances  It probably won't be cheap but it will be exactly the frame what I want.


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## valleyold boy (28 Dec 2009)

Came off my mtb on ice this morning,luckily on a track not the road,cut eye,bruised knee,hurt pride,but the bike was ok!


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## postman (28 Dec 2009)

Cycling on ice .Is this a new BBC tv prog .Is Brucie presenting or that bird off x-factor .


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## maurice (28 Dec 2009)

Came off my mtb on ice this afternoon, arse still hurts.

There was a big unavoidable sheet of it on the trail, to start with it was a bit roughed up and looked to have some grip. Got about 10 foot in when the ice turned into a slick sheet, then a slight camber on the ground gave predictable results.


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## phil_hg_uk (28 Dec 2009)

MacB said:


> I've chosen a Van Nicholas Amazon, wanted a titanium bike, and it came down to the Amazon or the Yukon.



I was wondering did you have a look at the SABBATH September Rival:







I have been looking at titanium bikes and my LBS sells the sabbaths and on paper it looks very good and ticks all the boxes i.e. takes mudguards etc

Just wondered if you had any thoughts for or against.


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## MacB (28 Dec 2009)

phil_hg_uk said:


> I was wondering did you have a look at the SABBATH September Rival:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Think I've had a look at pretty much all of them, I've read some very good reviews on the Sabbaths. I was originally planning on a, mega £'s, custom build but various domestic expenses and a sanity check have put the kibosh on that. I'm not yet 100% on the Amazon, there will be a test ride first. One of the reasons for going Van Nicholas is that Corridori aren't far from me, so testing is possible. I've been delayed in my progress due to injury and tinkering with bars setup. I don't want to commit to the new bike until I've finalised the cockpit on existing. 

My utility leanings have come more to the fore again as well. I need to verify but am now having concerns on tyre clearances on the Amazon. Have read a couple of comments indicating that 32mm is biggest you can go. The Amazon will really have to outperform the Crosscheck significantly to make the spend worthwhile. For example the Xcheck is currently fitted with Marathon Winter studded tyres at 35mm, and could take tyres up to 45mm with guards. There's just under 1lb difference in weight between the frames so the Amazon needs to be a big notch up comfort wise as well to get the nod. If I can't get the tyre clearance I want and the comfort isn't night and day difference(which I find hard to imagine) then we're only left with corrosion resistance. At 4x the price for the titanium over the steel I'm not sure how big a factor the corrosion can be.


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