# How much of a difference is going from shimano claris to ultegra gear set?



## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

I have a shimano claris gear set- trek al2 domane bike and I'm wondering how much of a difference would it be if I had a bike with an ultegra gear set? Would I be more faster?


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## bikingdad90 (21 Nov 2020)

Simple answer, more gears with a smaller step between gears but assuming your running the R2000 version you will not be faster or feel much difference to the ride experience but the quality of the kit will be “finer” and lighter so it will be less robust in the long term.

It depends on the use of the bike also. If your going to use it a commuter/leisure bike/winter bike, I’d go for the “sweet spot” of shimano 105 if your interested in an upgrade as the replacement part costs are reasonable but the quality is sufficiently robust to last a long time


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## DCBassman (21 Nov 2020)

Probably not. It's the engine that counts - you.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Probably not. It's the engine that counts - you.


So what's the point of buying these expensive ultegra bikes?


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## bikingdad90 (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> So what's the point of buying these expensive ultegra bikes?



Disposable income that people have. People who like to race want as light as possible and because Ultegra is lighter than Claris it’s why they opt for it.


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## DCBassman (21 Nov 2020)

They tend to be a bit lighter, probably a little more fragile. Getting lighter costs money. Getting a lot lighter costs serious money. You have a good bike. Maybe upgrade the drivetrain when parts need replacing?


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## DCBassman (21 Nov 2020)

I'll add that I've messed with my transmission more than once, but to get different gearing, not just different gears. Lower gearing for hills, mainly.


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## Paulus (21 Nov 2020)

I would only change the groupset as and when your present set needs it.
105 is a very good, reliable and workmanlike set. 
When you get to Ultegra and Dura Ace, they are lightweight and are for racing purposes. The shifting is crisp and quick, but this will come at a price.


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## rivers (21 Nov 2020)

As mentioned above, more gears won't make you faster. Working on your fitness will. And as mentioned above, if you do want to go 11 speed, go for 105. Parts are still reasonably priced. But Claris is fine for most people. If you like the bike, keep riding as is, and replace the whole groupset with 105 as parts start getting worn.


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## ianrauk (21 Nov 2020)

Its all just bling.
I ride with both 105 and Ultegra and there is no discernable difference in feel, ride or weight.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

I am happy with my bike, but I really want the trek sl6 domane


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## ianrauk (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am happy with my bike, but I really want the trek sl6 domane


Have you ridden a Trek before? Trek Road bikes are a bit marmite when it comes to ride and rider.
I bought a bike once that I loved the look of. I disliked it from the start. An expensive mistake.


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## JohnHughes307 (21 Nov 2020)

I upgraded my Specialized Allez from Claris to Tiagra (8 sp to 10 sp) all bought second hand, but it was more of a project than an upgrade. The main difference for me was going from inboard bearing Octalink to outboard Hollowtech. The BB just felt better. Other differences were small.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

ianrauk said:


> Have you ridden a Trek before? Trek Road bikes are a bit marmite when it comes to ride and rider.
> I bought a bike once that I loved the look of. I disliked it from the start. An expensive mistake.


I have a trek al2 domane, and I absolutely love it I tried someone's specialised bike before and I preferred my trek. Why did you dislike your trek bike? I've done 1000s of km on it and still love the bike to bits.


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## Drago (21 Nov 2020)

You won't go a single jot faster. Dependent upon the quality of the cables youre currently using and how well set up you are, the only differences are liable the be the extra gear or two, and a slightly smoother shift. Any weight loss will be minor, not enough alone to be measurable over your lap or journey times.

Domit because you fancy it, not out of any expectation of a tangible performance gain.

Good luck.


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## DCBassman (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I have a trek al2 domane, and I absolutely love it I tried someone's specialised bike before and I preferred my trek. Why did you dislike your trek bike? I've done 1000s of km on it and still love the bike to bits.


Then, as mentioned, when things start to wear out, replace them with 105. I'd agree this is probably the sweet spot. Otherwise, if it ain't broke...


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## RoadRider400 (21 Nov 2020)

Size of the gears and power you generate will determine speed. Gear changes on higher end kit is generally much smoother though.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Then, as mentioned, when things start to wear out, replace them with 105. I'd agree this is probably the sweet spot. Otherwise, if it ain't broke...


What is a sign that it's time to replace the gear set? How much does it cost to swap out the claris to the 105, and where do I get that done?


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

RoadRider400 said:


> Size of the gears and power you generate will determine speed. Gear changes on higher end kit is generally much smoother though.


I am still unsure how to increase my speed. I have increased distances I can cycle- I can do long distances comfortably without getting tired but haven't improved my speed... Endurance is there but not speed.


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## Mo1959 (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am still unsure how to increase my speed. I have increased distances I can cycle- I can do long distances comfortably without getting tired but haven't improved my speed... Endurance is there but not speed.


Probably doing some higher intensity bursts. Find a quiet road, maybe with a slight incline and ride as fast as you can for a few minutes then ease off and get your breath back and then repeat a few more times.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

Mo1959 said:


> Probably doing some higher intensity bursts. Find a quiet road, maybe with a slight incline and ride as fast as you can for a few minutes then ease off and get your breath back and then repeat a few more times.


So just go up and down the same road 4 times? And how long does this road have to be. It is at least 12km for me to get out the city to quiet country lanes.


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## pawl (21 Nov 2020)

I changed from Ultegra to 105 medium cage so that I could lower the gearing, 32 large cog .Still have the option of 34 As for a slight weight penalty I can’t tell the difference.nor can I see any difference in shifting performance


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## Cycleops (21 Nov 2020)

Top end groupsets are a bit like this:


View: https://youtu.be/G55Oq3oBls0


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## alecstilleyedye (21 Nov 2020)

claris will feel a little more agricultural than even tiagra. tiagra or 105 will be a decent upgrade. beyond that it's rapidly decreasing marginal gains.


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## vickster (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> What is a sign that it's time to replace the gear set? How much does it cost to swap out the claris to the 105, and where do I get that done?


When the shifters fail or you have the money burning a hole in your pocket but you don’t have enough for a new bike 👍
If you go from 8 to 11 speed you may also need to change your (rear) wheels
Cost wise you can check online retailers like Wiggle for the cost of shifters, cassette, chain, front and rear mechs as a minimum.
An LBS can easily fit it all for you, maybe £100-150?


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## nickyboy (21 Nov 2020)

ianrauk said:


> Its all just bling.
> I ride with both 105 and Ultegra and there is no discernable difference in feel, ride or weight.


Agree. I specced 105 onto one bike and the other has Ultegra cos it came with that. They're the same. When the Ultegra is worn out I'll replace it with 105 as it's much cheaper. Getting fitter is where it's at, not shaving 100g off a groupset


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## davidphilips (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am still unsure how to increase my speed. I have increased distances I can cycle- I can do long distances comfortably without getting tired but haven't improved my speed... Endurance is there but not speed.


As many have said a change in groupset wont make any difference apart from your bank balance, theres lots of cyclists spending big money to buy speed in the vain hope of becoming faster cyclists by spending money. Best way to get faster on a bike is to start with a bike that fits you, second get it set up right for yourself and then start a training plan. 
Best advice i can give about a training plan is to start and watch Veloharmony on utube or similar, either that or start and read up on it, but training really means every time you cycle theres a purpose and you stick to it should it be slow easy days, intervals cadence work whatever?
what i find with most cyclists wanting to get faster is they go to fast on there easy days and to slow on there hard days and end up never really getting any faster?


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## nickyboy (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> So just go up and down the same road 4 times? And how long does this road have to be. It is at least 12km for me to get out the city to quiet country lanes.


To go appreciably faster you need to either increase the number of watts you can consistently output (that's the fitness bit) and/or improve your riding position to make yourself a bit more aerodynamic. Assuming you can't do much about your position on the bike then it's down to fitness. Long, endurance rides can only do so much. You reach a level and that's it. To get fitter you need to do higher intensity efforts. The most efficient way to do this is hill repetitions where you find a hill that takes maybe 5 minutes to ride up and you go for it, max effort. Do this as many times as you can. But this is boring and not much fun. Nicer is to find some loop that takes maybe an hour or so. Go as fast as you can the whole loop. Keep trying to improve the time it takes you to do the loop as a challenge to yourself. This works


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## Paulus (21 Nov 2020)

Mo1959 said:


> Probably doing some higher intensity bursts. Find a quiet road, maybe with a slight incline and ride as fast as you can for a few minutes then ease off and get your breath back and then repeat a few more times.


As Mo says, interval training to increase your power and speed.


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## ianrauk (21 Nov 2020)

nickyboy said:


> When the Ultegra is worn out I'll replace it with 105


This is what I have done with my commute bike. Recently changed the rear derailleur and crankset from Ultegra back to 105.
I'll keep my nice roadie with Ultegra though. For the bling of course.


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## Ajax Bay (21 Nov 2020)

DCBassman said:


> when things start to wear out, replace them with 105


Do not do this ( @oreo_muncher has 8sp Claris groupset). You can't just replace one thing with 105 'written' on it. Current 105 stuff is 11 speed. As others have said (with my additions) items needed will be: rear wheel (with 11sp freehub), cassette, chain, STIs, RD and FD, and chainset (and most likely BB too).


vickster said:


> Cost wise you can check online retailers like Wiggle for the cost of shifters, cassette, chain, front and rear mechs as a minimum.
> An LBS can easily fit it all for you, maybe £100-150?


I'd be amazed to get that (105 STIs, cassette, chain, front and rear mechs) for £200 even to fit yourself @vickster .


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## RoadRider400 (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am still unsure how to increase my speed. I have increased distances I can cycle- I can do long distances comfortably without getting tired but haven't improved my speed... Endurance is there but not speed.


Doing long distances does not make you fast, it makes you more able to do long distances. If you want to get faster over short distances do some flat out intervals and perhaps some leg work in the gym such as lunges/squats etc. You will be limited by genetics and there is no changing that, so if you have a lot of slow twitch mucle fibres you will have to accept you are not going to be grease lightning.


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## wafter (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am happy with my bike, but I really want the trek sl6 domane


If you're happy with your existing bike keep your money in your pocket. 

Ultegra will give you more gears for lesser spacing and / or greater range, nicer / lighter shift quality and marginally lower mass. The tradeoff is enormous, disproportionate expense and arguably greater fragility. If all of the positives above combined to give you a perceptable gain in speed on a typical ride over Claris I'd be surprised tbh.

105 is regarded by most as the "sweet spot" for value in the Shimano range; anything above this and prices rocket for very little return. Personally this is my limit as I can't abide the expense of higher-end stuff, but everyone's perspectives are different.


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## vickster (21 Nov 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Do not do this ( @oreo_muncher has 8sp Claris groupset). You can't just replace one thing with 105 'written' on it. Current 105 stuff is 11 speed. As others have said (with my additions) items needed will be: rear wheel (with 11sp freehub), cassette, chain, STIs, RD and FD, and chainset (and most likely BB too).
> 
> I'd be amazed to get that (105 STIs, cassette, chain, front and rear mechs) for £200 even to fit yourself @vickster .


Nope that’s the cost of the fitting, parts on top! Sorry if not clear, check cost of parts on wiggle and then fitting cost on top. I was answering two questions, cost of parts, cost of fitting

_Cost wise you can check online retailers like Wiggle for the cost of shifters, cassette, chain, front and rear mechs as a minimum.
An LBS can easily fit it all for you, maybe £100-150?_


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## PaulSB (21 Nov 2020)

@oreo_muncher I'd agree with others changing your group set to 105 will not make you faster.

There are two ways to increase speed. The first is to become stronger and fitter through lots of short, hard rides in which you push yourself as much as possible.

The second possibility is a better bike. This is not to suggest there is anything wrong with your current bike. Once you've improved your strength and fitness you will reach a point whereby the bike is the limiting factor. You will "feel" this point, you'll "know" you have more in you than the bike allows.

I know this is not a view everyone would agree with but have experienced it myself and seen it in others. For example I simply cannot get the same speed out of my winter Dolan that I do from my summer Cervelo.

A lady I ride with is widely recognised by everyone in our club as a fantastic climber. She's 20 years younger than me. I'm OK on hills and we often push each other hard up some major local climbs and were on par, finishing a few seconds apart. She bought a new Trek, overnight her performance jumped ahead. Quite astonishing. On the same climbs she now smashes me by 30-60 seconds, sometimes more. She's also hammering some of our very good male riders of her age.

The time will come but just concentrate on fitness for the moment.


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## Ajax Bay (21 Nov 2020)

Well I thought that might be what you meant, but I reckon a LBS would be prepared to fit that lot for free if they got in the groupset and made their money on the RRP margin.


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## vickster (21 Nov 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> Well I thought that might be what you meant, but I reckon a LBS would be prepared to fit that lot for free if they got in the groupset and made their money on the RRP margin.


Can only ask. Not something mine would do for that level of work.
I’ve nearly always found it cheaper to buy my parts online and pay the bolt on fees.

@oreo_muncher  you can get the older 105 groupset for around £350 albeit limited gearing options
https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cyclin...05-5800-11-speed-groupset-black/10970750.html


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

vickster said:


> Can only ask. Not something mine would do for that level of work.
> I’ve nearly always found it cheaper to buy my parts online and pay the bolt on fees.
> 
> @Anonymous1502 you can get the older 105 groupset for around £350 albeit limited gearing options
> https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cyclin...05-5800-11-speed-groupset-black/10970750.html


you're quoting the wrong person.....


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## vickster (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> you're quoting the wrong person.....


Sorry! Not concentrating, sat on train.
Fixed and you found it anyhow


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

vickster said:


> Sorry! Not concentrating, sat on train.
> Fixed and you found it anyhow


That £350 costs more than half the price of my current bike! think I would just get a new bike once I outgrow this one and get fed up with it and I'll just use it for short bike rides but for now it's my only bike and I still love it


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## DCLane (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> That £350 costs more than half the price of my current bike! think I would just get a new bike once I outgrow this one and get fed up with it and I'll just use it for short bike rides but for now it's my only bike and I still love it



Sensible choice. Claris is fine and until last year was my choice for commuting and winter riding. Parts are cheaper and often more durable.

As above; harder rides under an hour build speed, longer rides build stamina 

We've 105/Ultegra/Dura-Ace and the nice stuff's good but is only a bit lighter.


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## HLaB (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I have a shimano claris gear set- trek al2 domane bike and I'm wondering how much of a difference would it be if I had a bike with an ultegra gear set? Would I be more faster?


Its probably been said, the Ultegra will if set up right give you smoother changes, will be marginally lighter and will give you a bigger range of gears. It's impossible to put an exact number on it but on a long ride it might make you 1second faster. Maybe 5-10seconds in a hour+ race where the smoother/ faster gear changes may help you select the right gear.


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## Sharky (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am still unsure how to increase my speed. I have increased distances I can cycle- I can do long distances comfortably without getting tired but haven't improved my speed... Endurance is there but not speed.


Re speed, do you mean average speed? 
What do you currently achieve and what is your target. 

Terrain and weather conditions will dictate what you can achieve more than other factors.


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## HLaB (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I am still unsure how to increase my speed. I have increased distances I can cycle- I can do long distances comfortably without getting tired but haven't improved my speed... Endurance is there but not speed.


I wouldn't worry about speed at this time of year. If you've built up endurance the speed will have followed, it just being supressed by the harder conditions at this time of year. Come the new year and better weather you'll be flying


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## Globalti (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> So what's the point of buying these expensive ultegra bikes?



The point is that well-made equipment is nice to use, nice to look at and light in weight. Ultegra is good but Dura Ace even nicer, people say it's the same but it's not.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

Sharky said:


> Re speed, do you mean average speed?
> What do you currently achieve and what is your target.
> 
> Terrain and weather conditions will dictate what you can achieve more than other factors.


I'm stuck at 20km/h, I want it to go up to 24km/h so I can actually do a group ride with my uni cycling soc and not embarrass myself by my poor abilities on the bike.. and there are people in that club that do that route at 30km/h....


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

Globalti said:


> The point is that well-made equipment is nice to use, nice to look at and light in weight. Ultegra is good but Dura Ace even nicer, people say it's the same but it's not.


What gear set do you have?


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## Sharky (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I'm stuck at 20km/h, I want it to go up to 24km/h so I can actually do a group ride with my uni cycling soc and not embarrass myself by my poor abilities on the bike.. and there are people in that club that do that route at 30km/h....


I think in mph, but if you are achieving 12mph on solo rides, you would easily achieve 14mph in a group ride. Drafting other riders can reduce the effort needed by 30%.

Just do it. On my first few group rides, I used to get dropped, but a year later, I was one of the stronger riders.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

Sharky said:


> I think in mph, but if you are achieving 12mph on solo rides, you would easily achieve 14mph in a group ride. Drafting other riders can reduce the effort needed by 30%.
> 
> Just do it. On my first few group rides, I used to get dropped, but a year later, I was one of the stronger riders.


I'm so intimidated by these people and my confidence is already low in my cycling abilities that I haven't been to a single group ride and now they're postponed till after lockdown- probably till january.


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## Sharky (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I'm so intimidated by these people and my confidence is already low in my cycling abilities that I haven't been to a single group ride and now they're postponed till after lockdown- probably till january.


Look outside your uni cycling club, for an established cycling club with mixed ages and mixed ability. All good clubs will have runs at different speeds and one is bound to match your level. The uni cycling club is likely to be full of riders who have come from a serious competitive level already and are into training rides, rather than club runs. 

Good luck


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## Globalti (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> What gear set do you have?



My (currently out of use) Roubaix has Ultegra and my hooligan bike, which I might never ride again, has DA. The action on DA is smoother and crisper by a long shot.


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

Globalti said:


> My (currently out of use) Roubaix has Ultegra and my hooligan bike, which I might never ride again, has DA. The action on DA is smoother and crisper by a long shot.


How much did that cost you


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## cyberknight (21 Nov 2020)

I am going to say i notice fark all difference between my claris on the commuter and the tiagra 4700 on my best bike , i also have sram force on the winter bike and they all do the job perfectly fine once they were set up right.
The only thing that slows the commuter bike down is the rack, panniers, lights , etc etc that push it getting on for 15 kg but once up to speed its not enough of a difference to notice its when you hit a hill that the extra 6-7 kg make a difference


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## oreo_muncher (21 Nov 2020)

cyberknight said:


> I am going to say i notice fark all difference between my claris on the commuter and the tiagra 4700 on my best bike , i also have sram force on the winter bike and they all do the job perfectly fine once they were set up right.
> The only thing that slows the commuter bike down is the rack, panniers, lights , etc etc that push it getting on for 15 kg but once up to speed its not enough of a difference to notice its when you hit a hill that the extra 6-7 kg make a difference


Think I'll need to get a new bike if I decide to do bike touring. Don't think I want to convert my current one to one, rack, panniers, sturdier wheels etc. Unless I got a better bike.


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## Drago (21 Nov 2020)

One of the best geartrains I found to live with was the old 2300 Sora. It needed to be set up on an absolute knife edge (not a problem if you know how to set up gears properly) or it could be clunky, but the thumb buttons for up changes were brilliant and much nicer to use when on the hoods, which is fantastic on real roads with real traffic and a real need to turn your head occasionally.

And my absolute favourite was the 10 speed Tiagra, I've got big hands (take note ladies  ) so the longer lever throw felt much more natural to me. For all the fancy mech geometry and fluorine coated pivots, none of the higher ranked gear trains suited me so well,

Some depleted uranium and platinum Dura Ace looks absolitely lovely, but brings nothing to the party that helps me personally. You're just going to have to ride and ride and ride, get those miles under your belt on as many different bikes as you can and you'll soon figure out what it crap, what looks great, what costs a lot, and what actuslly gives a tangible benefit. The sweet spot is different for everyone, and time in the saddle is the only way you'll figure out where yours is.

And remember your grammar. What most people call a groupset is nothing of the sort - they mean a geartrain, and possibly brakes thrown in too. A groupset will include cables, skewers, seatpin, and even wheels, pedals and handlebars on some, so when people refer to a groupset they usually mean anything but. Stupid testers in glossy magazines are responsible for promulgating this rubbish.


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## vickster (21 Nov 2020)

Globalti said:


> My (currently out of use) Roubaix has Ultegra and my hooligan bike, *which I might never ride again*, has DA. The action on DA is smoother and crisper by a long shot.


Why not?


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## vickster (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Think I'll need to get a new bike if I decide to do bike touring. Don't think I want to convert my current one to one, rack, panniers, sturdier wheels etc. Unless I got a better bike.



likely no reason why you can’t fit a rack or sturdier wheels at least for light touring. You yourself weigh nothing so even with panniers you’re bike would be carrying much less weight than for many heavier cyclists


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## Globalti (21 Nov 2020)

Why not?

I'm extremely pessimistic about ever returning to the levels of fitness and overall body strength that allowed me to sustain that low down position four years ago when I treated myself to that lovely bike for my 60th birthday. Two years later I bust my collar bone and needed two ops and then two years later my present situation began. I've lost 10 percent of my body weight in muscle over 4 months, to the extent that I'm even afraid to lift heavy objects now for fear of injuring my back.


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## HLaB (21 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I'm stuck at 20km/h, I want it to go up to 24km/h so I can actually do a group ride with my uni cycling soc and not embarrass myself by my poor abilities on the bike.. and there are people in that club that do that route at 30km/h....


I change the route of my lunch time ride (the overall elevation/time/distance is about the same though) but looking at them in the summer for the same effort or less (recorded on a power meter) I was approximately 2kph faster than I am now late autumn. Theoretically removing the Autumn/Winter elements I am still riding at the same speed now. But if you've managed to maintain you are riding at the same speed, taking out those elements actually means you are potentially riding faster. Don't get hung up comparing current speed to summer speed though; if you must compare, compare summer to summer


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## cougie uk (21 Nov 2020)

If you can do your route at say 20kmh - go out and attack certain parts of it as fast as you can. Then recover for a bit and go again. 

If you do this you stress your system and it adapts to cope with the pace. You will get faster.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

cougie uk said:


> If you can do your route at say 20kmh - go out and attack certain parts of it as fast as you can. Then recover for a bit and go again.
> 
> If you do this you stress your system and it adapts to cope with the pace. You will get faster.


There's this portion where there are 3 massive hills in a row, very steep and I do manage to cycle up them but they reduce my average speed. And then a few times I have to stop because there is a junction and I rather just stop and check then get run over by accident. And I go through about 6 sets of lights on that route.. Which all contribute to a decreased average speed. I guess I could try going faster on the flat portions of the ride. The route is 1000feet and 45km.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

HLaB said:


> I change the route of my lunch time ride (the overall elevation/time/distance is about the same though) but looking at them in the summer for the same effort or less (recorded on a power meter) I was approximately 2kph faster than I am now late autumn. Theoretically removing the Autumn/Winter elements I am still riding at the same speed now. But if you've managed to maintain you are riding at the same speed, taking out those elements actually means you are potentially riding faster. Don't get hung up comparing current speed to summer speed though; if you must compare, compare summer to summer


The headwind has been quite bad the few times I've been out. So maybe I did improve a tiny bit if I'm still riding at the same speed as the summer. But I no longer cycle at the same frequency as in the summer where I was on my bike 5 times a week, now it is down to once a week 😞 I'm probably losing my fitness 😞


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

vickster said:


> likely no reason why you can’t fit a rack or sturdier wheels at least for light touring. You yourself weigh nothing so even with panniers you’re bike would be carrying much less weight than for many heavier cyclists


I know I could but then I'll miss the speediness of that bike, and would have to faff around going between touring mode and non touring mode.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> One of the best geartrains I found to live with was the old 2300 Sora. It needed to be set up on an absolute knife edge (not a problem if you know how to set up gears properly) or it could be clunky, but the thumb buttons for up changes were brilliant and much nicer to use when on the hoods, which is fantastic on real roads with real traffic and a real need to turn your head occasionally.
> 
> And my absolute favourite was the 10 speed Tiagra, I've got big hands (take note ladies  ) so the longer lever throw felt much more natural to me. For all the fancy mech geometry and fluorine coated pivots, none of the higher ranked gear trains suited me so well,
> 
> ...


I just need to find a way to sneak in a new bike so my Mum wouldn't know I got a 2nd bikeShe gets annoyed about having to store my current bike and about my bike spending, not sure how bike number 2 would go down with her. And I need to save up to get the one I want next. I think I want another trek, the emonda range is meant to be ultra light, madone is meant to be more aerodynamic and the domane is about comfort and endurance. I was just thinking about just getting a better domane. I used to think about getting an Orbea bike but hard to find a place in the UK that sells them and I don't want to be buying it online. And I don't know if i would even enjoy riding an orbea.


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

Sigma in Kingston now sell Orbea
https://www.sigmasports.com/bikes/road-bikes?manufacturer_name[]=orbea&sort=popularity&p=1
However, perhaps you should listen to your mum as you’ve said elsewhere money is tight.
Maybe save up and treat yourself when you graduate


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

vickster said:


> Sigma in Kingston now sell Orbea
> https://www.sigmasports.com/bikes/road-bikes?manufacturer_name[]=orbea&sort=popularity&p=1
> However, perhaps you should listen to your mum as you’ve said elsewhere money is tight.
> Maybe save up and treat yourself when you graduate


The blue/black one is really nice: https://www.sigmasports.com/item/Orbea/Avant-M20-Team-Disc-Road-Bike-2020/Q528
I'm saving up, I want my 2nd bike to be more on the expensive side , buy once but buy proper?


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

Yep nice colour but it has those monstrous hydraulic hood horns


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

vickster said:


> Yep nice colour but it has those monstrous hydraulic hood horns


Not a fan of road bikes?


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## MrGrumpy (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I have a shimano claris gear set- trek al2 domane bike and I'm wondering how much of a difference would it be if I had a bike with an ultegra gear set? Would I be more faster?



upgrade your wheels if you want to notice a difference


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Not a fan of road bikes?


Not all... I have 4 (like the Ti in my avatar)
...just not a lover of the aesthetic of hydraulic Shimano hoods  Mine all have sleek SRAM brifters


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Not a fan of road bikes?



There's road bikes and there's ugly road bikes. Most modern ones with disc brakes and those horrible tumour shaped brifters fall into the latter category. There's probably only two things that @vickster and I would ever both agree on - and that is that matt black bikes look dull and boring and Shimano hydraulic brifters are really pig ugly.
You're barking up the wrong tree anyway if you think buying a much more expensive bike is going to make any meaningful difference to how fast you can go. It really isn't; any such gains are going to be tiny. and will get lost in the normal variables of air density and wind direction on any given ride.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

MrGrumpy said:


> upgrade your wheels if you want to notice a difference


Upgrade them to what? How much of a difference would it make? And what's the cost? My current bontrager tyres have been serving me well - 1000s of km and no puncture (hope I don't jinx myself here).


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Upgrade them to what? How much of a difference would it make? And what's the cost? My current bontrager tyres have been serving me well - 1000s of km and no puncture (hope I don't jinx myself here).


They will wear out though, you’ll know when as you’ll start to get punctures


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's road bikes and there's ugly road bikes. Most modern ones with disc brakes and those horrible tumour shaped brifters fall into the latter category. There's probably only two things that @vickster and I would ever both agree on - and that is that matt black bikes look dull and boring and Shimano hydraulic brifters are really pig ugly.
> You're barking up the wrong tree anyway if you think buying a much more expensive bike is going to make any meaningful difference to how fast you can go. It really isn't; any such gains are going to be tiny. and will get lost in the normal variables of air density and wind direction on any given ride.


I don't want an expensive bike to be faster. I want a more enjoyable ride. A more smooth ride. And because why not?


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

vickster said:


> They will wear out though, you’ll know when as you’ll start to get punctures


When do you think that will happen? I'm dreading that day. I have the tools incase it happens with me when I go on my bike but if it happened - I don't know if i could do it. I've watched all the YouTube videos and know the theory but don't have the practice.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's road bikes and there's ugly road bikes. Most modern ones with disc brakes and those horrible tumour shaped brifters fall into the latter category. There's probably only two things that @vickster and I would ever both agree on - and that is that matt black bikes look dull and boring and Shimano hydraulic brifters are really pig ugly.
> You're barking up the wrong tree anyway if you think buying a much more expensive bike is going to make any meaningful difference to how fast you can go. It really isn't; any such gains are going to be tiny. and will get lost in the normal variables of air density and wind direction on any given ride.


I don't know what the difference is between how they look. What does my trek al2 domane have? Excuse my ignorance.


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> When do you think that will happen? I'm dreading that day. I have the tools incase it happens with me when I go on my bike but if it happened - I don't know if i could do it. I've watched all the YouTube videos and know the theory but don't have the practice.


Impossible to say, just keep an eye on the tyres for wear.
Just practice changing the inner tube at home, maybe at the time when you’re beating yourself up about proscratinating, use that time for something useful


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I don't know what the difference is between how they look. What does my trek al2 domane have? Excuse my ignorance.


Claris shifters. They’re not the sleekest either but they’re smaller and a different shape to the 105 hydraulic ones


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> I don't want an expensive bike to be faster. I want a more enjoyable ride. A more smooth ride. And because why not?



There's little relationship between how much bikes cost and how comfortable they are. High end models don't have the monopoly on good geometry and suitable sizing. One of the most cpmfortable bikes I ride was also one of the cheapest when it was new. I have a less comfortable one that would have cost five times as much as the cheap one, because it was designed more for performance. If I applied your logic, the most expensive bike would have the smoothest ride, but it doesn't.
There is some relationship between price and mechanical refinement and weight, but you have to spend a lot more money over and above a basic spec bike to get any tangible improvement in either. A lot of the extra price goes into increased profit margins for the makers and retailers not significantly better engineering. You only have to look at the normal level of end of season discounting to appreciate how big the mark ups are on the higher end models. Even at the discounted prices, no-one is going to be selling bikes at a loss. You don't see the same degree of discounting at the low end of the market, because the margins are thinner to begin with.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's little relationship between how much bikes cost and how comfortable they are. High end models don't have the monopoly on good geometry and suitable sizing. One of the most cpmfortable bikes I ride was also one of the cheapest when it was new. I have a less comfortable one that would have cost five times as much as the cheap one, because it was designed more for performance. If I applied your logic, the most expensive bike would have the smoothest ride, but it doesn't.
> There is some relationship between price and mechanical refinement and weight, but you have to spend a lot more money over and above a basic spec bike to get any tangible improvement in either. A lot of the extra price goes into increased profit margins for the makers and retailers not significantly better engineering. You only have to look at the normal level of end of season discounting to appreciate how big the mark ups are on the higher end models. Even at the discounted prices, no-one is going to be selling bikes at a loss. You don't see the same degree of discounting at the low end of the market, because the margins are thinner to begin with.


It's like my Mum put you up to this to deter me from getting a new bike  So what's a good reason to get a 3k bike? Or even a 1.5k bike?


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## MrGrumpy (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Upgrade them to what? How much of a difference would it make? And what's the cost? My current bontrager tyres have been serving me well - 1000s of km and no puncture (hope I don't jinx myself here).


I’m not talking about tyres only here, the actual wheels do make a difference. Rotating weight matters ! However for your average joe , no need to spend a lot. Nice set of handbuilt wheels coming in at £300 or so will serve you well compared to manufacturer supplied. Better still see what can be had second hand. Anyway it’s all about what you wish or want to spend.


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## vickster (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> It's like my Mum put you up to this to deter me from getting a new bike  So what's a good reason to get a 3k bike? Or even a 1.5k bike?


Having something you enjoy owning and riding despite what the luddites think


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## Drago (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> It's like my Mum put you up to this to deter me from getting a new bike  So what's a good reason to get a 3k bike? Or even a 1.5k bike?


Because you think youll look tough to your chums down the club, but in reality they wont give a sheet.

Skippy is quite right, beyond a certain point there is a cliff edge of diminishing returns, if any, and price is no guarantee of how a bike will _feel _ to you. My relatively cheap Felt blew me away for and feel and Ive ridden 8 grand bikes that didn't come close to having the same synergy (christ, im starting to sound like an HR rep).

Buy what you want, because you want to - just dont be naive enough to think more money and/or the latest fashionable technology automatically means a better experience.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> Because you think youll look tough to your chums down the club, but in reality they wont give a sheet.
> 
> Skippy is quite right, beyond a certain point there is a cliff edge of diminishing returns, if any, and price is no guarantee of how a bike will _feel _ to you. My relatively cheap Felt blew me away for and feel and Ive ridden 8 grand bikes that didn't come close to having the same synergy (christ, im starting to sound like an HR rep).
> 
> Buy what you want, because you want to - just dont be naive enough to think more money and/or the latest fashionable technology automatically means a better experience.


I don't care what the people in the cycle club think, I want a new bike for me. I'm not aiming for a 10k bike, just something a bit better than my current. I'm not buying a new bike for at least a year.


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## DRM (22 Nov 2020)

Well I've just got back in from a 31 miler on my Verenti Technique, it's on 9 speed Sora, the shifters change smoothly, it's not overly heavy &
the colour is fantastic, I've upgraded a few bits, some used Shimano R501 wheels, saddle & better brakes/blocks, I've also fitted some Schwalbe G-One speed tyres 700x30, that were in the garage, it's no slower over the same route than my carbon Giant Defy, the bike cost £350 in the end of season sale from Wiggle, so price has no real bearing on performance.
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/verenti-technique-sora-2016


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## MrGrumpy (22 Nov 2020)

Tend to find the more spendy groupset in my view last longer , the springs and pivot points are of better quality alloy material. Don’t rust or look tatty. However that’s assuming you look after them . However all that comes at a price!
As others have said shimano 105 is the sweet spot. Not sure what srams is , Rival ? As for a lighter bike in general, you will notice the lightness and stiffness accelerating or climbing hills etc.
For the luddites on here they wouldn’t notice or care , for the rest of us who appreciate and notice these small differences it’s welcome. Just remember everything is built to a price even the relatively expensive bikes.
Could I justify spending £5k on a bike , yep ! Would it make me faster , nope . Your a long time dead, no pockets in a shroud , don’t want to be the richest and in the cemetery etc. Some folk spend that sort of money on fags and drink !!


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## DCBassman (22 Nov 2020)

To illustrate how little difference these things really make, my road bike has flat bars and MTB gears at the back, 9-speed Alivio with a 12-36 cassette. There's no easy way to go fast around here, it's too lumpy. And to top it off, the smoothest deraillurs I've owned are the two Altus ones that were/are fitted to my old Trek MTB. One of my most distinct memories of doing London to Brighton in 2016 was being surrounded by grinding gear changes on fancy road bikes. The well-lubricated 7-speed Altus on the Trek was silent and flawless all day.


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## All uphill (22 Nov 2020)

Maybe contentious, but I have a strong sense that the shifters and cables have a bigger influence on gear change quality than the derailleur itself.

Derailleurs are all simple pantographs with simple idler wheels, but there is lots of potential for friction and mechanical clumsiness in cables and shifters.

I have recently put new cables, carefully lubricated and with smooth curves on my tourer. Combined with friction bar end shifters the shift quality now matches my 105 bike, despite having a lowly Acera derailleur.


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## PaulSB (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> It's like my Mum put you up to this to deter me from getting a new bike  So what's a good reason to get a 3k bike? Or even a 1.5k bike?


There are plenty of reasons why one might buy a £3k bike. The number one is sheer pleasure and there is no better reason for buying one.

It's important to understand you will reach a point where a better bike will allow you to ride or perform better. Basically what happens is your abilities are restricted by the bike. In my opinion those who don't agree are flat out wrong. BUT there is no point in using an expensive bike which offers improved performance unless you're pushing yourself in terms of fitness and strength.

You may have missed this earlier. A woman I ride with recently bought the top of the range Trek Emonda. She and I were about equal as climbers. Overnight she began to smash me by 30-60 seconds or more - this is on serious climbs, cat 3 or 4, UK top 💯 s. She's hammering others in the club. We all knew this would happen as everyone could see her potential. The only variable which changed was her bike.

This lady's ability has long been obvious and the Trek has unleashed the potential. No matter how much I spent I'll never get close to her again. Which is fantastic to see.

Quality wheels and tyres will also improve performance and ride. After a quality frame it's the best investment you can make.

I've experienced this myself on my own bikes. On today's ride of 56 miles on my Dolan we only averaged 14.5mph, on my summer bike, Cervelo C3, for the same effort it would have been 16 and if we pushed ourselves 17.5mph.

It must be said winter conditions impact averages etc.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

PaulSB said:


> There are plenty of reasons why one might buy a £3k bike. The number one is sheer pleasure and there is no better reason for buying one.
> 
> It's important to understand you will reach a point where a better bike will allow you to ride or perform better. Basically what happens is your abilities are restricted by the bike. In my opinion those who don't agree are flat out wrong. BUT there is no point in using an expensive bike which offers improved performance unless you're pushing yourself in terms of fitness and strength.
> 
> ...


Yes I have read your story about the female climber  I don't think I'm at a point yet where my bike limits me. I don't cycle as much as i did before, probably losing my abilities now.


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## HLaB (22 Nov 2020)

MrGrumpy said:


> I’m not talking about tyres only here, the actual wheels do make a difference. Rotating weight matters ! However for your average joe , no need to spend a lot. Nice set of handbuilt wheels coming in at £300 or so will serve you well compared to manufacturer supplied. Better still see what can be had second hand. Anyway it’s all about what you wish or want to spend.


Yes and no but you probably know that  If its a stop start or hilly route the rolling weight matters but once a wheel is rolling it doesn't matter but aero does, hence heavier deep sections/discs. Where that switch kicks in speed wise is debatable too . The OP might need to factor that in.

The simplest most effective upgrade is the position of the rider (but you've got to be comfortable )
Then the wheels (aero/weight/cost balance for me)
A tyre change may help too (depending what you have in the first place)


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> It's like my Mum put you up to this to deter me from getting a new bike  So what's a good reason to get a 3k bike? Or even a 1.5k bike?



That's because your mum knows best. Mums always do. They've been around longer and have seen it all before. When I was a youngster I used to think I knew best. As I got older I began to realise that most of the time my mum had been right all along about all sorts of things we had a difference of opinion over.
You, on the other hand, haven't been around nearly so long. You're probably thinking "if I can achieve x amount on this relatively cheap bike, an expensive bike is going to be way better" The reality is it's going to make very little difference. It's the engine that makes a car go, not the bodywork, same applies to bikes.


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## oreo_muncher (22 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's because your mum knows best. Mums always do. They've been around longer and have seen it all before. When I was a youngster I used to think I knew best. As I got older I began to realise that most of the time my mum had been right all along about all sorts of things we had a difference of opinion over.
> You, on the other hand, haven't been around nearly so long. You're probably thinking "if I can achieve x amount on this relatively cheap bike, an expensive bike is going to be way better" The reality is it's going to make very little difference. It's the engine that makes a car go, not the bodywork, same applies to bikes.


Found it the other way around as I got older realised most 'adults' don't know what they're talking about and are as lost in this world as me. (in generic terms, not that I'm saying you don't know about the bike stuff, but about the mum comment)


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## PaulSB (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Yes I have read your story about the female climber  I don't think I'm at a point yet where my bike limits me. I don't cycle as much as i did before, probably losing my abilities now.


If you want to reach this point you will, if you prefer a different approach to cycling that's cool.

Each to their own.


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## Gunk (22 Nov 2020)

I recently upgraded my Lad’s road bike from 9 speed Sora to 10 Speed 6600 Ultegra, it was worth it, lighter, two extra gears and it looks stunning especially in polished silver.


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## PaulSB (22 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's because your mum knows best. Mums always do. They've been around longer and have seen it all before. When I was a youngster I used to think I knew best. As I got older I began to realise that most of the time my mum had been right all along about all sorts of things we had a difference of opinion over.
> You, on the other hand, haven't been around nearly so long. You're probably thinking "if I can achieve x amount on this relatively cheap bike, an expensive bike is going to be way better" *The reality is it's going to make very little difference. *It's the engine that makes a car go, not the bodywork, same applies to bikes.


I've tried to avoid challenging this but in my view you are simply wrong. My personal experience as a cyclist proves it to me and my observation of friends and club mates confirms this.

Put a good engine on a bike and he/she will perform to a level. Improve the bike and the wheels and immediately the power the rider puts out will translate in to improved performance.

This is true across many vastly differing types of vehicle - boats, yachts, cars, trucks. If it wasn't true nothing would have changed since the penny farthing or the model T Ford.


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## Blue Hills (22 Nov 2020)

I don't know anything about modern ultegra stuff but I have a 9 speed rear ultegra rear mech that came on a 2002 bike I bought in 2004.
Folks who know me from the rides I lead will know it from my blue dale.
Well used as that bike was my main bike - definitely for miles.
I bashed it into my spokes once on that bike and took some out.
It's still going on a new build (a £30 ridgeback base) and had some new jockey wheels a while ago.
It is a wonderful thing to look at and is strong.
I wouldn't say it's light at all but I don't care.
I bought a second hand one a while ago as a back-up.
So Ultegra - why not - but 9 speed


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## Blue Hills (22 Nov 2020)

Gunk said:


> I recently upgraded my Lad’s road bike from 9 speed Sora to 10 Speed 6600 Ultegra, it was worth it, lighter, two extra gears and it looks stunning especially in polished silver.


2 extra gears?
lighter? how much?


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## PaulSB (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> Found it the other way around as I got older realised most 'adults' don't know what they're talking about and are as lost in this world as me. (in generic terms, not that I'm saying you don't know about the bike stuff, but about the mum comment)


This certainly used to be true but I like to think there are many from my generation, child of the 60s, who remain open minded and ready to accept and discuss new ideas.

The gulf between my generation and my parents is deep and wide.


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## Blue Hills (22 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's because your mum knows best. Mums always do.


You're Italian skipdiver?


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## Drago (22 Nov 2020)

PaulSB said:


> There are plenty of reasons why one might buy a £3k bike. The number one is sheer pleasure and there is no better reason for buying one.
> 
> It's important to understand you will reach a point where a better bike will allow you to ride or perform better. Basically what happens is your abilities are restricted by the bike. In my opinion those who don't agree are flat out wrong. BUT there is no point in using an expensive bike which offers improved performance unless you're pushing yourself in terms of fitness and strength.
> 
> ...


Thats perhaps slightly misleading, as with a sample of one theres a 50/50 likelihood of a correlation of 1.

But lets assume for a moment that the bike has suddenly turbocharged this lass. What attribute is suddenly benefitting her? A pound to a pinch of dog poop says that whatever characreristic is giving her the boost is one that isn't particularly cost dependent, such as fit or positioning. 

If it were simply the bikes technical characteristics then we'd all be riding that model and razzing round like stabbed rats, but we don't and we're not. There will he something quite intinsic to that particular bike that suits that rider, something not easily defineable, and it won't be simply a high spec geartrain or light wheels, because if it were that easy we'd all do it.p and all be 20 seconds faster up our favourite hill.

Its the same phenomenon that I have with my Felt. Not an expensive bike and a mediocre drivetrain, but some ingredient makes me fly on it. So much so that I have one KoM and I'm 9th on another, where every single rider ahead of me is either a racer or a coach and I give at least 25 years to all of them. I think its just an equisite fit and feel that allows me to perform in a manner and level that I can't on my other bikes, and that is not an attribute that costs money.


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## nickyboy (22 Nov 2020)

So you want to do a 28mile (45km) circuit with 1000ft of climbing and you're currently doing it at about 12.5mph and you want to do it at around 15mph

Don't waste your money on new kit. I presume you're young. Providing you don't have some physiological or health issues you can do that on your current bike. It's just a matter of getting a bit fitter. To give you an idea, I'm probably a lot older than you, don't have a particularly fancy bike and I could do that at about 18mph average if I try hard. I'm reasonably fit

So you need to address how to get fitter (assuming no underlying health issues etc), not go on about different groupsets etc. They will make almost zero difference whereas you can probably improve by 6mph just by getting fit

I suggest you time yourself on that route. Then keep trying to improve your time again and again. There's no shortcut to getting fit. But for sure you have loads of room for increasing your speed by doing so


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## Gunk (22 Nov 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> 2 extra gears?
> lighter? how much?



Don’t ask, but it looks great!


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## bikingdad90 (22 Nov 2020)

@Gunk I’m most intrigued by the positive rise stem and then seemingly negative rise on the handlebars and why you didn’t go for a stem with less rise so the bars are level?

Nice bike though.


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## PaulSB (22 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> Thats perhaps slightly misleading, as with a sample of one theres a 50/50 likelihood of a correlation of 1.
> 
> But lets assume for a moment that the bike has suddenly turbocharged this lass. What attribute is suddenly benefitting her? A pound to a pinch of dog poop says that whatever characreristic is giving her the boost is one that isn't particularly cost dependent, such as fit or positioning.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about misleading but do understand where you're coming from. As with your Felt my Cervelo is just perfect for me. Most rides I'm not really aware of the bike and on a good day it's like an extension of my body. So I do agree there is an element of fit, position, feel good factor which is intangible and almost impossible to pinpoint.

However a bike is a machine as is a car, yacht etc. all of which are driven by an engine of some sort. In those examples we have human, petrol and wind powered engined. Builders and designers put huge effort in to improving every aspect of the machine to allow the maximum use of the power to drive the machine forward. The less power the machine absorbs or prevents reaching, in this case the wheels the more is transmitted and used efficiently in terms of pushing the machine forward.

The better and more efficient the design the faster the bike will be This costs money and, yes, there's definitely a premium involved which ends up with the manufacturer!


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## Gunk (22 Nov 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> @Gunk I’m most intrigued by the positive rise stem and then seemingly negative rise on the handlebars and why you didn’t go for a stem with less rise so the bars are level?
> 
> Nice bike though.



Just laziness, it’s sort of evolved like this, my son complained a few years ago that the bars were too low so I flipped the stem, then he grew so I raised the stem, really I need to flip the stem and sort it out. You’ve inspired me!


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## fossyant (22 Nov 2020)

oreo_muncher said:


> So what's the point of buying these expensive ultegra bikes?



Ultegra.. Pah, best bike is Dura Ace...

Both Ultegra and DA bikes are 30 years old.

DA is lush and works at 'lush' levels.  Ultegra bike works fine too


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## fatjel (25 Nov 2020)

I never had Claris but Sora made my left hand hurt so much on my first 300km ride that I stayed in the small ring for the second 100 miles.
!05 5800 that replaced it was much easier to use.
The first 400k my neck hurt instead.
I have di2 on my audax bike now because I was bored during lockdown. I've yet to try it on a long ride and I've not done more than 50k rides in so long now that I might not go that far again

Going faster needs hard work which makes me sweat and feel very uncomfortable.

One thing that the hair shirt brigade ignore is how good an expensive posers bike make some of us feel.


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## DCBassman (25 Nov 2020)

fatjel said:


> One thing that the hair shirt brigade ignore is how good an expensive posers bike make some of us feel.


Fair comment!


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