# Drugs in other sports



## johnr (4 Feb 2013)

I've seen the 'other sports do it too' come up in a number of threads, so I thought people might be interested in this on boxing and drugs from today's Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/feb/03/lamont-peterson-drugs-boxing.

Interesting that it costs the British board £1,000 per test.

Personally, I'm only passionate about clean cycling. I'm sure the moderators will intervene if this is deemed not relevant.

And on general corruption in sport, there's this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/feb/04/europol-investigation-football-matchfixing


----------



## oldroadman (5 Feb 2013)

Said it before, wherever there is big money, there is incentive for some to use any means to get at it.
Cycling may be an easy target for WADA, but a look through the UKADA statistics as an example, makes for interesting reading. It's just that a lot of governing bodies don't like their dopers exposed. Image of their sport and all that.


----------



## GBC (5 Feb 2013)

Andy Murray has put his tuppence worth in, not for the first time. I think it has concentrated a few minds that Djokovic's prize money in Australia exceeds the total amount spent by the ITF on doping control in the last year. So far Murray, Djokovic and Federer have all spoken out, but I'm not sure about the leading ladies.


----------



## montage (5 Feb 2013)

GBC said:


> Andy Murray has put his tuppence worth in, not for the first time. I think it has concentrated a few minds that Djokovic's prize money in Australia exceeds the total amount spent by the ITF on doping control in the last year. So far Murray, Djokovic and Federer have all spoken out, but I'm not sure about the leading ladies.


 
Interesting that Nadal hasn't......


----------



## laurence (5 Feb 2013)

a fair few tennis stars issed the olympics due to injury, if i remember. odd that.

that Murray sure has bulked up though. guess he had to work out a lot to get on top. nice to see him speak out... actually, nice to see him doing something other than whining.

i do remember someone saying that a sign of steroid abuse was a certain lung problem... not that any of the big stars have had serious lung problems, i am sure.


----------



## dragon72 (5 Feb 2013)

I'd be flabbergasted if drugs weren't rife in Rugby Union. The difference in size and shape between pre-professional era players and those playing now is astounding.


----------



## Ghost Donkey (5 Feb 2013)

dragon72 said:


> I'd be flabbergasted if drugs weren't rife in Rugby Union. The difference in size and shape between pre-professional era players and those playing now is astounding.



Having the option to train full time, arrange your meals and training sessions for the sport can certainly help. 

I expect you might be right though for some individuals working alone rather than an organised team doping schedule. I'd hope not but the potential is there for any sport with a lot to win. I remember being gutted when Jamie Bloem was the first rugby league player who tested positive for steroids many years ago. Being a cycling fan it was galling to see another sport I loved potentially going that way.


----------



## raindog (5 Feb 2013)

dragon72 said:


> I'd be flabbergasted if drugs weren't rife in Rugby Union. The difference in size and shape between pre-professional era players and those playing now is astounding.


That's mainly _because of_ the professional era. Instead of training two or three nights a week and playing at the week-end, it's now a full-time job where they're training intensively more or less every day of the week. Doesn't mean steroids aren't used by some players though.
Remember when even international forwards often had big beer guts? Thing of the past now. They're still big and heavy, but they're now honed athletes who can actually run around. Don't think that's drugs, it's just gym work and less sessions down the pub.


----------



## oldroadman (6 Feb 2013)

raindog said:


> That's mainly _because of_ the professional era. Instead of training two or three nights a week and playing at the week-end, it's now a full-time job where they're training intensively more or less every day of the week. Doesn't mean steroids aren't used by some players though.
> Remember when even international forwards often had big beer guts? Thing of the past now. They're still big and heavy, but they're now honed athletes who can actually run around. Don't think that's drugs, it's just gym work and less sessions down the pub.


 Almost genetic selection going on, as players have become pro, they lose fat and get more muscle cover from proper training and nutrition. Thus the "hits" get bigger, and you hardly ever see smaller half backs now, as they can be battered out of a match with some heavy tackles from opposing forwards (and 15 stone backs!). I watched France/Italy last weekend, one French forward, listed as being 22 stones (about 140kg), running around and flattening people, and I think, "welcome to the world of genetic exception". Thank goodness I'm not a rugby player, all 70kg of me... - and a lot less (about 57-58kg) a while back trying to help leaders win races.

But the rapid increase in size and physical changes does beg the question as to just how many steaks, supplements and weights are being used. I'm also reading a book by Richard Moore "The dirtiest race ever" which is not about our sport, but the 100 metres 1988 Olympic final. 8 finalists, 6 eventually caught doping. And we only recall Ben Johnson. Not our own Linford, of course. Odd that so many sprinters are Jamaican descended, and they do seem very good for a small country. Muct be something in the genes.


----------



## thom (6 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Odd that so many sprinters are Jamaican descended, and they do seem very good for a small country. Muct be something in the genes.


Genetic, cultural or peds. Michael Johnston was adamant it was not in fact genetic when he made a program last summer aired during the Olympics. He pointed to the importance of sprint track running in Jamaican culture.
Some people think there is a genetic legacy related to the selection of slaves for their physical characteristics. 
It was only in reading this article that I realised 1/3 of the Jamaican sprint team from the 2008 Olympics have been sanctioned for doping...


----------



## raindog (6 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> But the rapid increase in size and physical changes does beg the question as to just how many steaks, supplements and weights are being used.


All sorts of stories going about of young players told to go and "bulk up" during the summer break, and if they're not up to weight when the new season starts they're out of the team. I think we all know what "bulk up" means. I absolutely love rugby, but I think it's drugs testing is about as feeble as football and tennis.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (7 Feb 2013)

Australian sport riddled by drugs, corruption and organised crime.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (7 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Australian sport riddled by drugs, corruption and organised crime.


Worse than cheating it says. There was a story the other day about match fixing on a huge scale in football (soccer) worldwide, which to my mind is a more serious issue than a few doping cyclists, which is bad enough, obviously.


----------



## thom (7 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Australian sport riddled by drugs, corruption and organised crime.


The Today program ran the story too. I guess this will mainly concern both rugby codes and Aussie rules football. 
I think most people now suspect doping is more pervasive through a wide variety of sports, where as oldroadman points out there is the financial incentive. It has to be great that Australia is actively trying to address these concerns. Is there a need for a UK commission doing similar ? Rugby would be the obvious possible problem - what about football ? What about drug use to assist in recovery from injury in sports like cricket ? I guess we shall get cues from Australia - I just hope there is appetite to shine light into the other dark parts. A concerted effort would undoubtedly benefit all sports.


----------



## davefb (7 Feb 2013)

thom said:


> Genetic, cultural or peds. Michael Johnston was adamant it was not in fact genetic when he made a program last summer aired during the Olympics. He pointed to the importance of sprint track running in Jamaican culture.
> Some people think there is a genetic legacy related to the selection of slaves for their physical characteristics.
> It was only in reading this article that I realised 1/3 of the Jamaican sprint team from the 2008 Olympics have been sanctioned for doping...


see also long distance runners...

which iirc ends up being not just from the same country, not just from the same area, but some insane stat about the same town...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/06/ethiopian-home-worlds-greatest-runners

of course, that would be a town in an area perfect for long distance running training


----------



## Licramite (7 Feb 2013)

maybe they should accept it and produce a list of safe performance enhancing drugs they can take.
I lived on anti-inflammatory,painkillers and dextrose doing the welsh 3000. - I dare say they are banned drugs.

of course its the Professional world thats screwed sport. - when sport was all by armatures and big business kept their snouts out it was far less corrupt. (well it wasn't actually but it was less to do with money and more to do with sport)


----------



## raindog (7 Feb 2013)

Licramite said:


> maybe they should accept it and produce a list of safe preformance enhaucing drugs they can take.


Sorry, but that's daft. We'd have the same situation as now, with some competitors taking drugs that aren't on the "list". And what about athletes who want to compete clean?


----------



## Licramite (7 Feb 2013)

Thats the problem - completely clean - allot of the so called enhancing drugs haven't been proved to actually enhance anything - they potentially could give an edge , they could be claimed to give an edge , theoretically they can give an edge - so they are banned. - hell I'm surprised they haven't banned sugar - it's a chemical compound that can give a huge boost of energy.
Interestingly I read of a health warning about red bull - there have been several deaths linked to red bull - as it should only be drunk before a period of intense physical activity , not a soft drink as its chemical make up causes huge stress in the body.

It won't stop drug testing but it would remove the harmful drugs and stop piddling around with safe drugs- after all what are we trying to do - protect the athletes from harming themselves or worry about who is actually the fastest at that race.

If someone thinks he is fit enough not to need the harmless drugs (chemicals) then thats his choice.

OK I admit I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the drugs but some of the stuff thats banned that occurs in natural foods is crazy - I know of a Friend who if he had an asthma attack, I think he said a month before an event ,he couldn't compete as his inhaler had a banned drug in it. - and he was only club competeing.


----------



## Crackle (7 Feb 2013)

Most of you have probably seen this now

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/07/australian-doping-sport-drugs

Organised crime links to drug supplies, match fixing, peptides and hormones, makes cycling look saintly.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (7 Feb 2013)

Crackle said:


> Most of you have probably seen this now
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/07/australian-doping-sport-drugs


 
Yeah, mainly because I posted in above and we've been discussing it...


----------



## thom (7 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Yeah, mainly because I posted in above and we've been discussing it...


Now now, easy mistake to make.
Nobody's perfect


----------



## Licramite (7 Feb 2013)

peptides is what lance was on If I remember right , thats why it took them so long to nail him. -

me I'm on mars bars


----------



## Crackle (7 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Yeah, mainly because I posted in above and we've been discussing it...


I was so sure I'd checked the links!

2 in the morning, most of us were snoring then.


----------



## User169 (7 Feb 2013)

raindog said:


> All sorts of stories going about of young players told to go and "bulk up" during the summer break, and if they're not up to weight when the new season starts they're out of the team. I think we all know what "bulk up" means. I absolutely love rugby, but I think it's drugs testing is about as feeble as football and tennis.


 
The 17 year son of a cabinet minister got busted last year. If the pressure is so intense on schoolboys, I can't believe it's any less so in the adult pro game.


----------



## Hont (7 Feb 2013)

montage said:


> Interesting that Nadal hasn't......


Nor David Ferrer. A player I have never even seen look out of breath, let alone tired.

Men's tennis, at the very top, seems to be more and more about who can physically outlast his opponent, which is cause for serious concern. And you know something's wrong when even the players are saying they are not tested enough.


----------



## Hont (7 Feb 2013)

Licramite said:


> maybe they should accept it and produce a list of safe performance enhancing drugs they can take.


There are too many problems with that unfortunately. How many "safe" drugs in your cupboard, on the little advisory sheet, say "take as many as you like"? We all know that sportsmen will take more if they think they'll get an edge. EPO/Testosterone/HGH are safe if taken in small enough quantities (they are all found in the human body naturally after all), so are you going to remove them from the banned list? Many of the substances on the banned list are masking agents for something nastier, so allowing them would be carte blanche to use the other product. 

I'm sure there are anomolies, though, as I'm pretty sure that caffeine would be banned if it wasn't found in products that millions of people routinely consume and had been synthesised in a lab somewhere.


----------



## BrumJim (7 Feb 2013)

thom said:


> Genetic, cultural or peds. Michael Johnston was adamant it was not in fact genetic when he made a program last summer aired during the Olympics. He pointed to the importance of sprint track running in Jamaican culture.
> Some people think there is a genetic legacy related to the selection of slaves for their physical characteristics.
> It was only in reading this article that I realised 1/3 of the Jamaican sprint team from the 2008 Olympics have been sanctioned for doping...


 
Friend of mine recons that it is culture. Jamaican boys learn to run very fast at the sound of a gunshot from a very early age. (He's from Nevis, so allowed to make inter-Caribbean rivalry comments like that!)


----------



## johnr (8 Feb 2013)

The son of a colleague of mine plays League for one of the local pro teams. I asked her how often he's tested. She says, 'all the time'. He won't take any medications not given to him by the club. Apparently random drug testers came round to the house of one of his team mates in the middle of the night (this guy had previous involvement with PEDs). I didn't think that was permitted... but then again maybe a pro athlete's 'middle of the night' is different from ours.


----------



## johnr (11 Feb 2013)

This follow up on the history of corruption in football:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2013/feb/10/football-match-fixing-no-surprise

Good idea on an independent investigative body:
"It makes you pine for the equivalent of a World Anti-Doping Agency for match-fixing, to bash heads and set standards. But (Rick) Parry (former chief executive of Liverpool FC) suggests it will never fly, as sporting authorities are suspicious of any encroachment on their territory. Instead he calls for a transnational body to act as a police force, collating information and passing it on.

That makes sense. As does sports creating the right culture themselves. Parry says: "It isn't always about years of painstaking evidence. A large part is about making it hard for stings to happen. The British Horseracing Authority has the best integrity unit of all. If they gather intelligence prior to a race they send a security officer to a jockey to say: we are watching you. That's a big disincentive for criminals.""


----------



## oldroadman (11 Feb 2013)

Licramite said:


> Thats the problem - completely clean - allot of the so called enhancing drugs haven't been proved to actually enhance anything - they potentially could give an edge , they could be claimed to give an edge , theoretically they can give an edge - so they are banned. - hell I'm surprised they haven't banned sugar - it's a chemical compound that can give a huge boost of energy.
> Interestingly I read of a health warning about red bull - there have been several deaths linked to red bull - as it should only be drunk before a period of intense physical activity , not a soft drink as its chemical make up causes huge stress in the body.
> 
> It won't stop drug testing but it would remove the harmful drugs and stop piddling around with safe drugs- after all what are we trying to do - protect the athletes from harming themselves or worry about who is actually the fastest at that race.
> ...


 
Why did his coach/himself get a TUE* for the inhaler? There are quite a few in use by peole who suffer when high level exercise and hard breathing heppens. It's not hard to sort it out with a competent doctor, and stay legal.
* Theraputic Use Exemption certificate. Allowed usage of certain compounds for health reasons. Check the WADA and UKADA sites, it's all there.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (12 Feb 2013)

Hont said:


> Nor David Ferrer. A player I have never even seen look out of breath, let alone tired.
> 
> Men's tennis, at the very top, seems to be more and more about who can physically outlast his opponent, which is cause for serious concern. And you know something's wrong when even the players are saying they are not tested enough.


 
People like Andy Murray. As a passive watcher of tennis I have noticed his change from a slight physique to a considerably more muscular one. When he plays doubles with his brother the difference between the two is marked when they used to be quite similar.

Nevertheless, given Murray's stance it would be incredible if he was a drug cheat and whilst people may find him irritating he has never struck me as dishonest, probably too honest to be really popular*.

So I think it should not be assumed that a considerable increase in strength and endurance is invariably drug related rather that for many, drugs are a short cut to success that others have to achieve by hard work and perseverance. For me that makes drugs cheats all the more obnoxious.

*e.g.
"I think there's very little skill involved in the Tour de France," Murray said. "It's pretty much just physical. A lot of the way the teams work now is just science, the power, however many watts you're producing, they know all of it based on how much the heart rates, all those things. Whereas with tennis, you can't teach the skill by taking a drug."


----------



## johnr (16 Feb 2013)

The Guardian has published a drugs in sport special
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/series/drugs-in-sport-special

Note the frequent references to the woefulness of the UCI


----------



## oldroadman (17 Feb 2013)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> People like Andy Murray. As a passive watcher of tennis I have noticed his change from a slight physique to a considerably more muscular one. When he plays doubles with his brother the difference between the two is marked when they used to be quite similar.
> 
> Nevertheless, given Murray's stance it would be incredible if he was a drug cheat and whilst people may find him irritating he has never struck me as dishonest, probably too honest to be really popular*.
> 
> ...




Which is quite correct, but you can condition your physique to execute those learned skills for longer, more consistently, and with less effects from tiredness. How that is done is what tennis, amongst other sports, needs to consider.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (20 Feb 2013)

It's not (just) about the drugs. A superb article on the depth of corruption in professional football.


----------



## BJH (20 Feb 2013)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> People like Andy Murray. As a passive watcher of tennis I have noticed his change from a slight physique to a considerably more muscular one. When he plays doubles with his brother the difference between the two is marked when they used to be quite similar.
> 
> Nevertheless, given Murray's stance it would be incredible if he was a drug cheat and whilst people may find him irritating he has never struck me as dishonest, probably too honest to be really popular*.
> 
> ...



The problem with Murray and tis article is that if you were to take a view on whether he has or hasn't based on all the comments he makes, I think most people would have a different view.
He has moaned repeatedly about testing and it's encroachment.
If I was in his position at a level that close to the top of my sport and believed that these was any chance of my competitors cheating - I would be calling for as much testing as possible, middle of the night included.

There was a link in a thread on here to misuse of steroids in tennis which has sme very interesting comments. Where do the Williams sisters get their build from playing through three sets with serves getting faster. Nadal has an incredible build, but says he does no gym work, it's all from tennis.

More worrying for British sport is seeing our guy associating with trainers who have been involved with other misusers.

So for me, I have doubted him for some time and look forward to him explaining the speed he built his body up in.


----------



## Hotblack Desiato (20 Feb 2013)

BJH said:


> The problem with Murray and tis article is that if you were to take a view on whether he has or hasn't based on all the comments he makes, I think most people would have a different view.
> He has moaned repeatedly about testing and it's encroachment.
> If I was in his position at a level that close to the top of my sport and believed that these was any chance of my competitors cheating - I would be calling for as much testing as possible, middle of the night included.
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately I am one of those who once believed Lance Armstrong was a great bike racer, so I ain't going to argue.. I just _hope_ you are wrong.


----------



## BrumJim (21 Feb 2013)

Interesting comment on the radio this morning about boxing, noting that drugs bans do not result in sporting events being cancelled, except in the case of professional boxing.

Hence it is very much in the interests of a boxing promoter that neither fighter is found with drugs in his system, otherwise they will loose a lot of money.


----------



## Licramite (21 Feb 2013)

Maybe the answer is to say , you can take what you like boys - may the best drugs win.- and accept a few may die.

oddly I read an interesting bit on the history of the Olympics were in the (20s or 30s I think) one cycle race was won by a guy who caught a train part way.
The ancient Greeks and Romans used "natural" stimulants before the games (the Greeks I think was other Greeks but we won't go there)
theres fairly strong evidence that gladiators were "fortified" before the games to increase their aggression levels ignore pain and resist fear.

nothings new.


----------



## Hont (21 Feb 2013)

BJH said:


> The problem with Murray...He has moaned repeatedly about testing and it's encroachment. If I was in his position.... I would be calling for as much testing as possible, middle of the night included.


 
Well he has said that more recently...

http://www1.skysports.com/tennis/ne...doping-controls-in-tennis-have-to-be-improved
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/tennis/murray-lets-flush-out-the-drug-cheats.19282031



BJH said:


> So for me, I have doubted him for some time and look forward to him explaining the speed he built his body up in.


 
I have a lot of concerns about Tennis, but I don't see that his body has built up particularly fast. Most full-time athletes should be able to build that amount of muscle at that age with a dedicated fitness trainer helping them. If he is doping, then he's not doing it very well, as I thought he looked tired throughout the Australian open final, breathing very heavily after only one set, as if he had not recovered from his semi-final.

Djokovic on the other hand seemed to recover superbly after a much longer match against Wawrinka.


----------



## thom (21 Feb 2013)

Let me be the first to mention Oscar Pistoffius as regards the Testosterone and Steroids reports.
Paralympic sport is a whole area I had not considered but for sure these sports stars have a lot riding on their results. The financial motivation is there too.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (21 Feb 2013)

thom said:


> Let me be the first to mention Oscar Pistoffius as regards the Testosterone and Steroids reports.


 
Why? It seems the stories are quite likely to be rubbish given the testimony of the arresting officer yesterday.


----------



## thom (21 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Why? It seems the stories are quite likely to be rubbish given the testimony of the arresting officer yesterday.


You think that because the officer is himself separately accused of murder, he would perjure himself with regards to Pistorius' crime ? Maybe I missed something - is there some reason to believe he fabricated that particular evidence, that the officer is lying here ?
He may be incompetent in his job and eventually shown to be a murderer but I'm sceptical about presuming he's stupid enough to lie about such a public crime and such a material piece of relatively incidental evidence - either it exists or it doesn't.


----------



## Crackle (21 Feb 2013)

thom said:


> You think that because the officer is himself separately accused of murder, he would perjure himself with regards to Pistorius' crime ? Maybe I missed something - is there some reason to believe he fabricated that particular evidence, that the officer is lying here ?
> He may be incompetent in his job and eventually shown to be a murderer but I'm sceptical about presuming he's stupid enough to lie about such a public crime and such a material piece of relatively incidental evidence - either it exists or it doesn't.


 
I wouldn't be too hasty yet. Botha is looking more incompetent by the minute. I think he changed what it was from steroids to Testosterone, missed a casing in the toilet, took the wrong phones, didn't wear protective clothing etc...


----------



## Flying_Monkey (21 Feb 2013)

thom said:


> You think that because the officer is himself separately accused of murder, he would perjure himself with regards to Pistorius' crime ? Maybe I missed something - is there some reason to believe he fabricated that particular evidence, that the officer is lying here ?


 
I'm not talking about the investigation into his crimes, I'm talking about the fact that he admitted in his testimony that he didn't actually know what the substances found were before telling the press they were steroids, and which Pistorius has insisted are a legal substance. They remain untested as yet. There's enough speculation around this tragic case already. I'd rather not add to it.


----------



## thom (21 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I'm not talking about the investigation into his crimes, I'm talking about the fact that he admitted in his testimony that he didn't actually know what the substances found were before telling the press they were steroids, and which Pistorius has insisted are a legal substance. They remain untested as yet. There's enough speculation around this tragic case already. I'd rather not add to it.


That's fair enough but the point of my earlier post wasn't actually to speculate on Pistorius but to remark that Paralympic sports may well be one of the "other sports" where doping is currently occurring and that this would have been an area I had naively overlooked. Apologies if this wasn't clear... !
Edit, that and to find a place to make a weak pun on Pistorius' surname ;-)


----------



## BJH (21 Feb 2013)

Hont said:


> Well he has said that more recently...
> 
> http://www1.skysports.com/tennis/ne...doping-controls-in-tennis-have-to-be-improved
> http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/tennis/murray-lets-flush-out-the-drug-cheats.19282031
> ...



Sadly his dedicated fitness instructors appear to have track records. So yes I have doubts.


----------



## BJH (21 Feb 2013)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Unfortunately I am one of those who once believed Lance Armstrong was a great bike racer, so I ain't going to argue.. I just _hope_ you are wrong.



I would love to be wrong too


----------



## Crackle (21 Feb 2013)

thom said:


> That's fair enough but the point of my earlier post wasn't actually to speculate on Pistorius but to remark that Paralympic sports may well be one of the "other sports" where doping is currently occurring and that this would have been an area I had naively overlooked. Apologies if this wasn't clear... !
> Edit, that and to find a place to make a weak pun on Pistorius' surname ;-)


 
I took an interest in Pistorius after a few articles I read on the Science of Sport blog, which paint a slightly different picture of his motivations and of him.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/12/science-of-sport-awards-controversy-of.html

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/09/oscar-pistorius-counting-strides-as.html

His sponsors include Nike, Oakley, BT and many others, worth a fair amount or they did anyway.

Of course you can conclude nothing from that, other than the stakes for being a top sportsperson are high, whether you're a paralympian or otherwise, why should the temptations at that level be any different.


----------



## Flying_Monkey (21 Feb 2013)

Crackle said:


> Of course you can conclude nothing from that, other than the stakes for being a top sportsperson are high, whether you're a paralympian or otherwise, why should the temptations at that level be any different.


 
I have no doubt of that.


----------



## beastie (21 Feb 2013)

BJH said:


> I would love to be wrong too





BJH said:


> Sadly his dedicated fitness instructors appear to have track records. So yes I have doubts.



Who are they?


----------



## Cycleops (21 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Said it before, wherever there is big money, there is incentive for some to use any means to get at it.
> Cycling may be an easy target for WADA, but a look through the UKADA statistics as an example, makes for interesting reading. It's just that a lot of governing bodies don't like their dopers exposed. Image of their sport and all that.



It's true, there is so much to gain financially now in sport you will always get someone who manages to beat the system like LA did. We have seen going back many decades now and will continue well into the future. Let them all take drugs at least you will have a level playing field! Sport is now so devalued and the participants so overpaid I for one am just fed up with it all.


----------



## Cycleops (22 Feb 2013)

User said:


> a lot of people seem or want to blame professionalism, the sponsers, the big money on why people cheat or take drugs in sport, cheating has been prevalent since the very inception of competitive games, people cheat for the glory, the accolades, the money is a bonus.... would lance armstrong have cheated if there was no money to be made from the tour de france, too right he would....
> people wonder why would a domestique would cheat when no chance of personal glory, so it must be the money, to us he's a domestique but to him, he's a champion, waiting for his chance... of course there comes a time when most realise the glory days are gone, then the money becomes the goal...
> I've seen cheating (drugs) in sunday morning football, amatuer boxing, local running club.. these were solely for personal glory, when cheating is here, then what do people really expect from the professional sports..



I am not too sure you are right about the money not being motivation enough, but thats by the way. So given that personal glory and mass adulation is the spur what do you suggest? Do we let them just get on with it? You are offering any solutions in the light of what you have said.


----------



## Crackle (22 Feb 2013)

Cycleops said:


> It's true, there is so much to gain financially now in sport you will always get someone who manages to beat the system like LA did. We have seen going back many decades now and will continue well into the future*. Let them all take drugs at least you will have a level playing field*! Sport is now so devalued and the participants so overpaid I for one am just fed up with it all.


 
I've seen you say this a few times. It simply isn't true nor is it desirable on any level.


User said:


> a lot of people seem or want to blame professionalism, the sponsers, the big money on why people cheat or take drugs in sport, cheating has been prevalent since the very inception of competitive games, people cheat for the glory, the accolades, the money is a bonus.... would lance armstrong have cheated if there was no money to be made from the tour de france, too right he would....
> people wonder why would a domestique would cheat when no chance of personal glory, so it must be the money, to us he's a domestique but to him, he's a champion, waiting for his chance... of course there comes a time when most realise the glory days are gone, then the money becomes the goal...
> I've seen cheating (drugs) in sunday morning football, amatuer boxing, local running club.. these were solely for personal glory, when cheating is here, then what do people really expect from the professional sports..


 
I don't think anyone is denying it, what we want is to get rid of it, especially at the top level. Reasons for this are multitude but you can perm any analogy from a multitude as to why people who do things which are morally wrong, let alone against the law or a set of rules, should not be allowed to think that what they do is acceptable, would you argue otherwise?

re-read Bassons interview if you want to think about what might constitute fair play and how we might get there.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/christophe-bassons-where-the-war-on-drugs-is-going-wrong


----------



## thom (22 Feb 2013)

Crackle said:


> I've seen you say this a few times. It simply isn't true nor is it desirable on any level.


What's more, if anyone wants to debate that notion seriously, they should start a separate thread on it and then people can chose to either debate it or ignore it. Put in a poll too. It might actually go down quite well in the Current Affairs and Debates forum.


----------



## Crackle (22 Feb 2013)

User said:


> I don't thinks it's acceptable but to a degree I do accept it as part of sport, as I accept cheating of all sorts in everyday life, I don't like it but I don't let it overly cause me great concern.
> the question on whats morally right or wrong, I'd need to at the laptop and not on my tablet to even try and answer
> I didn't like bassons article it was too anti media and self serving and talked some rubbish about sport being more than about winning and how america was moving in the right direction because they've gave him some award, utter nonsence


 
I suppose the only word I'd change is acceptance to acknowledge. And I'd distinguish gamesmanship, as it was once called, maybe still is, from cheating, unlike Bassons who makes no distinction but perhaps he's right, it's a slippery slope.


----------



## Strathlubnaig (22 Feb 2013)

Golf - http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/yeartodate/news00/golfdrugs.html Apparently its the beta blockers doing the rounds "to calm them down" ..... ffs, golf is so laid back any calmer they would fall asleep.
edit - quote "Grady said he had never been drug-tested in more than 20 years as a professional "and I've never known anyone who has.''


----------



## BJH (23 Feb 2013)

beastie said:


> Who are they?


 
Take a look at Tennis Has A Steroid problem via Google - lots of similar questioning to this site.

During the period when Murray went from bean pole to developing muscles ( bigger than his brother isn't he?) he chose to use the man credited with turning around the career of Andre Agassi.

Bad choice, this was the guy who was not aware that Agassi used crystal meth for fun - more recreational than performance enhancing, but still a banned substance, a test failure for which, the Tennis authorities decided to hush up ( sound familiar? )

Said coach has continued to bleat continually to the world about tennis being the most tested sport in the world quoting 30 times per year for players - all nonsense, they experience nothing like this amount and the regime is dubious to the say the least.

So given the number of hushed up drug failures in tennis and the ability to move around the court at high speed throughout the game that we now see, I don't think it's unreasonable to make the jump to it being a very questionable sport in terms of drugs misuse. Hearing Murray complain about testing regimes for a number of years depresses the hell out of me because I believe that if he was clean he would be calling for as much testing as possible to get the cheats out the game. His track record on this is poor and if he has finally got round to saying something about it it's just a few years too late for my liking.


----------



## beastie (23 Feb 2013)

BJH said:


> Take a look at Tennis Has A Steroid problem via Google - lots of similar questioning to this site.
> 
> During the period when Murray went from bean pole to developing muscles ( bigger than his brother isn't he?) he chose to use the man credited with turning around the career of Andre Agassi.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, I am aware of "Tennis has a steroid problem" and the lack of testing, and Murray complaining about whereabouts in the past(once I believe). Recently he has been very vocal in his denouncement of doping and criticism of the the lack of blood testing. 

What I wanted to know was the name of "said coach"?

Did you mean Gil Reyes? 

I do find that THASP is about the same as The Clinic. The premise may be right but the specifics are spurious to say the least. Murray was working on the Adiddas sponsered program which is open to any of their clients. I doubt they would be complicit in roiding up the meal tickets.


----------



## Hip Priest (24 Feb 2013)

Human beings are just a virus with shoes. Where there is money or prestige to be made from sporting achievement, then there will be cheats.


----------



## Hont (25 Feb 2013)

BJH said:


> During the period when Murray went from bean pole to developing muscles ( bigger than his brother isn't he?)


 
I'm not convinced about Murray one way or the other but I'm not persuaded by your arguments. It's hardly unusual to go from a slim build at 18 to a more muscular physique in your mid-twenties when you're a full time athlete. Muscle building is reliant on far more than genetics so if Andy does more physical work than Jamie he is going to have bigger muscles.



BJH said:


> Bad choice, this was the guy who was not aware that Agassi used crystal meth for fun


 
I'm going to need more evidence than that.


----------



## Licramite (25 Feb 2013)

maybe if they were on drugs thier games wouldn't last so flamin long and be so - boring - (or is that how tennis is supposed to be played)


----------



## Licramite (25 Feb 2013)

It's not looking good for pistoriuos , sounds like he was playing johannesburg cricket - doesn't look like he's got a leg to stand on.


----------



## BJH (25 Feb 2013)

Beastie and Hont - you are not looking too hard on Google if you can't find the name of the coach I refer to.


----------



## beastie (26 Feb 2013)

BJH said:


> Beastie and Hont - you are not looking too hard on Google if you can't find the name of the coach I refer to.


Well I assumed it was Gil Reyes, but you didn't say.


----------



## BJH (27 Feb 2013)

It's not


----------



## Hitchington (27 Feb 2013)

I heard on the radio there was "drugs in football". I ruined a bloody good football...


----------



## beastie (7 Mar 2013)

So who is it then? Coz I am not sure who you mean.Reyes was Agassi's coach. Do you mean Cahill? post the name


BJH said:


> It's not


----------



## beastie (7 Mar 2013)

Tennis to bring in Biological passport


----------



## raindog (28 Mar 2013)

drug use is bigger in rugby than any other sport in France, according to Françoise Lasne. More positive test results in rugby, followed by triathlon, cycling, swimming, football, basketball and handball in that order.
http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article...e_3148959_3242.html?google_editors_picks=true


----------



## smutchin (1 Apr 2013)

Liverpool manager Brendan Rogers mentioned in the post match interview yesterday that Steven Gerrard had to have a painkilling injection to be able to play.

It struck me that if he'd been a cyclist, he wouldn't have been allowed to race...

Is cycling the only sport with a no needles policy?


----------



## BJH (4 Apr 2013)

Yes similar comments on another player yesterday on the radion, what a star he is for playing through the pain barrier with an injection.

Football really does have a problem with this.

Gerrard should be taking a look at players from the 1960's who did the same and ended up needing new knees and hips.


----------



## BJH (6 Apr 2013)

Article from the BBC on boxing today, interesting in that it references a product that is available ove rthe counter but contains banned substances. The boxer concerned appears to have bought and used an older version of the powder which has been updated since to remove the banned substance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/boxing/22047144


----------



## albion (29 May 2016)

I value Murray's honesty.
Why go messy and cover things up when you can simply have zero testing, that being said to much happen in the top tier of Scottish football?


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/29/tennis-drugs-itf-president-david-haggerty-match-fixing

And hiding all the positive tests is simiarly financially driven, no news being good news.


----------



## Licramite (30 May 2016)

I'm more interested in what are the best performance enhancing drug is , and where can I get it!


----------

