# Do I really need a MTB??



## xxmimixx (17 Sep 2011)

Hi
as you might be aware, I sold my MTB. Had it less than I hear but only used it a handful of times, and the times I took it off the road, it was over qualified for the job! 

When I say off road, is just paths with gravel / dirt in country parks and jumping over the odd bump caused by big trees roots or natural steps etc, seems that with age Im getting more scared of doing bigger stunts! 

Also had disc breaks that squealed like mad and Im start to consider a bike with V brakes as my reasoning is that if my road bike stopped me at 40mph then a bike off road going nowhere near that speed will do fine also with V brakes? 

So my needs are :

I bike I can take occasionally off road (exclusively summer!) > not for jumping / big downhills but obviously still bumpy / uneven / muddy / grassy surface. 
A bike I can use on the road in winter for both shorter / cruising and longer distances 
A bike with V brakes (wont be riding in the rain, only if I get caught out!) if anyone else agrees with my reasoning 
What is the cheapest most decent groupset?
A not too manly looking bike please 

Can you please suggest a few bikes _other than the carrera_? 

how about the Felt QX70?
or Specialized Crosstrail?
or Cannondale Quick?

I want to take advantage of the sales as I saw some great deals all round but keep changing my mind!


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## MontyVeda (17 Sep 2011)

A hybrid possibly (half mtb, half roadie) ... Personally I don't think you need suspension if you're on the road most of the time, so fully rigid should suit you... just by a bike you like the look of (and can pick up easily), Style over speed if you're not racing or planning on doing rides in excess of 30-40 miles.

Main thing with off road is your tyres, you want a bit of nobble on 'em.


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## xxmimixx (17 Sep 2011)

thanks Monty, how about the Felt QX70?
or Specialized Crosstrail?
or Cannondale Quick?


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

hi Mister, thanks for the suggestion . Not really convinced on the Carrera, i think it has a twist gear change which I dont like and it has no susp?


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## vernon (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> hi Mister, thanks for the suggestion . Not really convinced on the Carrera, i think it has a twist gear change which I dont like and it has no susp?



The Carerra is more than up to the job. It's an underrated bike. My son has had two of them and he could get everywhere that I could on my Trek 4500. They are desirable bikes. So much so that he had both of his stolen.


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## Zoiders (18 Sep 2011)

2011 Subways have SRAM trigger shifters.


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## lukesdad (18 Sep 2011)

I really can t see the need for suspension for your needs.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

Good morning! 
So the Carrera is the undisputed best hybrid out there? Without wishing to upset anyone I think they look dull, and surely looks do come in the equation when choosing a new bike? I will pop by a Halfords anyway as is not too far away and sometimes pics don't do justice.
Are the bikes I submitted really rubbish? If so can you please offer me some alternatives ?
When I went to Carnwall and locked my forks by mistake (well forgot to unlock them) I found my elbows and wrists were hurting me after a long day riding off road. Hence me thinking I still needed sus...


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## lukesdad (18 Sep 2011)

elbows and wrists could that be because its something you havnt done for a while ? If so sus wont really help, it might actually compound the problem.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

sorry should have clarified, it wasn't the first day of riding and it was the only day they hurt...


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

[QUOTE 1548932"]
It may be that you were locking or tensing your arms too much. Most people find that padded gloves, bar does and maybe ergo grips are enough. 

Front suspension saps energy and affects the bike's handling. It's not so bad if you can lock it out, but it still adds weight and cost to the bike.
[/quote]

I agree. My Cube Reaction frame weights about 4.5Kg. It is more than double that with the Fox Forks. I think for the OP's needs a Hybrid would be just fine as long as it will take wide(ish) tyres. As much as I hate to say it the Subway 2011 looks like a good bike for the money.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

thanks Paul that makes sense, Angel me darling I dont think I like the Carrera waaaaa


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

I've been looking through pages of hybrids and I'm sure there are some suitable bikes out there for you. What was it about the Subway that put you off?


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## Iain p (18 Sep 2011)

I was in a very similar situation myself recently. As has been said, i wouldn't bother with suspension.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Good morning!
> So the Carrera is the undisputed best hybrid out there? Without wishing to upset anyone I think they look dull, and surely looks do come in the equation when choosing a new bike? I will pop by a Halfords anyway as is not too far away and sometimes pics don't do justice.
> Are the bikes I submitted really rubbish? If so can you please offer me some alternatives ?
> When I went to Carnwall and locked my forks by mistake (well forgot to unlock them) I found my elbows and wrists were hurting me after a long day riding off road. Hence me thinking I still needed sus...



sometimes locking suspension alters bike geometry, i.e., throwing more weight onto the hands, might just have been the change in position. i suggest that, ergon grips, fatter tyres and lower pressures is all you need, cheaper than a bike; or is it a case of n+1 as well?


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## MontyVeda (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> hi Mister, thanks for the suggestion . Not really convinced on the Carrera, i think it has a twist gear change which I dont like and it has no susp?



If you don't like the Carrera then don't buy one.. If you don't want twist grip, or grip sh!t gears, then don't buy a bike with them (I hate em too). If you're used to suspension then maybe you'll miss it if you go fully rigid (regardless of what people say). I've never had suspension so I've never missed it, not sure if that's owt to do with having a steel frame rather than alloy.

The three choices you suggested... aren't they all a bit manly? Other than that, they look ok for the price. However, the best bet is go to your LBS at test ride a few you like the look of. Buying online may mean you'll have to set the gears and brakes yourself.


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

MontyVeda said:


> If you don't like the Carrera then don't buy one.. If you don't want twist grip, or grip sh!t gears, then don't buy a bike with them (I hate em too). If you're used to suspension then maybe you'll miss it of you go fully rigid (regardless of what people say). I've never had suspension so I've never missed it, not sure if that's owt to do with having a steel frame rather than alloy.
> 
> The three choices you suggested... aren't they all a bit manly? Other than that, they look ok for the price. However, the best bet is go to your LBS at test ride a few you like the look of. Buying online may mean you'll have to set the gears and brakes yourself.


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## WychwoodTrev (18 Sep 2011)

How about this ?

http://www.dalescycles.com/productdetails.asp?productid=52869


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> sometimes locking suspension alters bike geometry, i.e., throwing more weight onto the hands, might just have been the change in position. i suggest that, ergon grips, fatter tyres and lower pressures is all you need, cheaper than a bike; or is it a case of n+1 as well?



Ergon grips seem very comfortable thanks, I sold my bike so I cant make the changes you suggest. I am looking for a new bike, or even a good second hand one.




MontyVeda said:


> If you don't like the Carrera then don't buy one.. If you don't want twist grip, or grip sh!t gears, then don't buy a bike with them (I hate em too). If you're used to suspension then maybe you'll miss it if you go fully rigid (regardless of what people say). I've never had suspension so I've never missed it, not sure if that's owt to do with having a steel frame rather than alloy.
> 
> The three choices you suggested... aren't they all a bit manly? Other than that, they look ok for the price. However, the best bet is go to your LBS at test ride a few you like the look of. Buying online may mean you'll have to set the gears and brakes yourself.



Yes I must be honest otherwise there is no point leading you in the wrong direction, I don't want to go fully rigid. Hybrid I think is the compromise. Those bikes I agree are a bit manly apart from the Cannondale being white is a bit less harsh but is at the top of my budget as was hoping to spend less, _hence me asking me for your help if you had other bikes in mind_. Want something more original, a middle ground. Im not a fitness fanatic this is my hobby so I want something that is pleasing to the eye as well as doing a decent job. 

Im surprised that on such opinionated forum, everyone is leaning against the Carrera (yet dont see that many on the road) and nobody is coming forth with a broader view on other bikes on the market or even consider and give opinions on the ones I suggested? 

If anyone has any linkys on bikes that could fit the picture or have experience on the bikes I suggested then thank you very much 

PS remember _this would not be my only bike_, I also have a full road bike for 'events' and longer road rides.


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Ergon grips seem very comfortable thanks, I sold my bike so I cant make the changes you suggest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK so you want a hard tail hybrid. Do you want 26" or 700c wheels?


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

going to embarrass myself (again) but Im not going to pretend I know better so what's the difference??


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> going to embarrass myself (again) but Im not going to pretend I know better so what's the difference??



700c wheels are larger and tend to be narrower than 26" wheels (which are fitted to most MTB's). Thus 700c wheels/tyres will cover more ground per pedal stroke and tend to have less rolling resistance, but will not fair as well off road as a knobbly wide 26" wheel/tyre


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## MontyVeda (18 Sep 2011)

Have you considered looking at the 2nd hand market? You may well get a better bike with better spec for your budget.

Personally I can't recommend a specific model... I bought my steed 10 years ago and don't intend replacing it, so am not 'up' on what's available.

The best bet is putting in some legwork and visit bike shops... if you see something you like the look of (style matters!) have a ride on it. It may feel too long or a bit small or just right.. keep shopping around until you find one which ticks both boxes; looks good and feels good... if it's still bit manly you can always put a basket on the front.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> 700c wheels are larger and tend to be narrower than 26" wheels (which are fitted to most MTB's). Thus 700c wheels/tyres will cover more ground per pedal stroke and tend to have less rolling resistance, but will not fair as well off road as a knobbly wide 26" wheel/tyre



oh I knew that much I thought that there was more to it!  The bikes choices that Im being given are endless so I better narrow them down  let's say 700cc




MontyVeda said:


> Have you considered looking at the 2nd hand market? You may well get a better bike with better spec for your budget.
> 
> Personally I can't recommend a specific model... I bought my steed 10 years ago and don't intend replacing it, so am not 'up' on what's available.
> 
> The best bet is putting in some legwork and visit bike shops... if you see something you like the look of (style matters!) have a ride on it. It may feel too long or a bit small or just right.. keep shopping around until you find one which ticks both boxes; looks good and feels good... if it's still bit manly you can always put a basket on the front.



Yes I had a look on a few sites and here classifieds but I need to first decide on what bike (or maybe narrow down to two) at the moment Im wasting my time ogling at bikes which I dont know if is suitable or not. If I could have my way I would have one for every cycling style!!


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> oh I knew that much I thought that there was more to it!  The bikes choices that Im being given are endless so I better narrow them down  let's say 700cc



Then I think you are going to struggle to find such a bike that has not been customized. You can get 29" wheeled MTBs but they are still pretty expensive at the moment.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

was it a leading question then?? 

hold on a sec! 

*Felt Tyre*:Felt X:City 700 x 37c
*Specialized Tyre* Specialized Borough XC Sport, 700x45c
*Cannondale Tyres* Continental Double Fighter 700x37c



I give up!


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> was it a leading question then??



Not at all. There are a few 700c hybrids out there with sus forks. I wanted to narrow the field of choice.

Here is one for example http://www.evanscycl...ampaign=froogle
and another here http://www.jtote.com...n8es7i75nde2ie2

*Cross post. I should have said less of a choice than 26" wheeled hardtail because I didn't realise how many 700c wheeled bikes had front sus. I live and learn*


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Ok my gut says this one Cannondale Quick.


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## billflat12 (18 Sep 2011)

Decathlon have good reviews and are also good value , check out their trekking range 

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/trekking-bikes-bikes-sports.html


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

thanks billflat and to everyone else's huge list of suggestions im really overwhelmed


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## Zoiders (18 Sep 2011)

Get the Subway.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Get the Subway.


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## Zoiders (18 Sep 2011)

It takes MTB tyres as well because it's a rigid MTB.

I will be honest I say I hate most lumpy 700 wheel hybrids from the lower end of the ranges, the forks tend to be rubbish if they are suspension and they don't take a full size 2" off road tyre either.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)




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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


>


Lmfao


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> It takes MTB tyres as well because it's a rigid MTB.
> 
> I will be honest I say I hate most lumpy 700 wheel hybrids from the lower end of the ranges, the forks tend to be rubbish if they are suspension and they don't take a full size 2" off road tyre either.


In this instance what you do or don't like is irrelevant.


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## Zoiders (18 Sep 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> In this instance what you do or don't like is irrelevant.


Don't be a twunt and make personal attacks.

It's the MTB section.


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## Cubist (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Don't be a twunt and make personal attacks.
> 
> It's a cycling forum.


He's not. Mimixx said specifically that she doesn't like the subway. She's trying to make an informed choice, and you blunder in and say "Get the subway" We know it's a decent bike if that's what you like, but she says she doesn't. 

Mimixx, have a look at Cube Nature range. They have some shorter travel forks designed to soak up bumps and buzz etc. If your budget will stretch the Curve is lovely. Comes in women specific design if you like it. 
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/cube-curve-womens-item164437.html


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## Cubist (18 Sep 2011)

What is your budget? These are lovely, but dearer
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/cube-nature-womens-item164446.html


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

oh my, welcome Cubist  you have risen greatly into my estimate ! 

I LOVE Cube Bikes but there is a tiny particular, over my budget and none in stock (however irrelevant) but thank you very much for your impressive suggestion 

Want to spend the least I can get away with! MAX 400 for a very nice looking bike!


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Don't be a twunt and make personal attacks.
> 
> It's the MTB section.


As Cubist said the OP has specific requirements and has expressed disinterert in the Subway. For you to then say "get the Subway" is like saying your choices are stupid so listen to me.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

No worries everyone we are just here to help each other, Im sure my threat made him realize I was serious about the bike called like a sandwich shop!


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## Zoiders (18 Sep 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> As Cubist said the OP has specific requirements and has expressed disinterert in the Subway. For you to then say "get the Subway" is like saying your choices are stupid so listen to me.


It was more the fact that I found your advice to be stupid if you want the actual answer as to what I think.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> I was offering an honest opinion as I really do believe the OP would be best served without a hybrid.
> 
> He was being snidey and jumping on the band wagon as an excuse to have go, no need for that all.



I appreciate that Z but just so to remove any shadow of doubt to all readers who might have missed the hint

I 
AM 
NEVER
EVER
FOR 
AS 
LONG
AS 
I 
SHALL
LIVE
GOING 
TO 
LOOK AT
THINK ABOUT
BUY
RIDE
BORROW
RENT
A 
CARRERA
SUBWAY
BIKE

I never felt so strong about a bike like this before, I think I might need some counseling now. ​


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> I was offering an honest opinion as I really do believe the OP would be best served without a hybrid.
> 
> He was being snidey and jumping on the band wagon as an excuse to have go, no need for that all.


So sorry to have offended you. Clearly somebody who rides mainly on roads with a little bit of gentle of road thrown in needs a MTB they don't like. Now it makes perfect sense.


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> It was more the fact that I found your advice to be stupid if you want the actual answer as to what I think.


Finally some honesty. Now read the OP's reply


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## Zoiders (18 Sep 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> So sorry to have offended you. Clearly somebody who rides mainly on roads with a little bit of gentle of road thrown in needs a MTB they don't like. Now it makes perfect sense.


No they need something flexable, especially as a hard winter is most likely again.

Which isn't most low end hybrids with cheap suspension forks, they ride like turds.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> No they need something flexable, especially as a hard winter is most likely again.
> 
> Which isn't most low end hybrids with cheap suspension forks, they ride like turds.



I find it hard getting out bed on bad winter days let alone go riding a bike  (suffer from sad) seriously do not intend to use it in very cold months for long rides. I think is 60% road 40%off road


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Zoiders said:


> No they need something flexable, especially as a hard winter is most likely again.
> 
> Which isn't most low end hybrids with cheap suspension forks, they ride like turds.


When giving advice it is a good idea to talk to the person seeking it.


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## ferret fur (18 Sep 2011)

Out of interest, what was the mtb you found so OTT?


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## Norm (18 Sep 2011)

bromptonfb said:


> sometimes locking suspension alters bike geometry, i.e., throwing more weight onto the hands, might just have been the change in position.


I think that's the wrong way round, isn't it? Suspension (on most bikes) locks in the highest position, which makes the front end taller and will take weight off the hands.



Angelfishsolo said:


> Thus 700c wheels/tyres will cover more ground per pedal stroke


 The size of the wheel is a small, possibly irrelevant factor when relating pedal strokes to the amount of ground covered. The main dependency is the gearing and MTBs (again, generalising) have lower gearing than road bikes. However, most people ride at a certain cadence so will select gearing to match.

700c wheels roll easier because they are generally fitted with higher pressure tyres, but this again relies on the relative specs as you can get high pressure road slicks for 26" wheels and knobblies for a 29er. The main difference, though, IMO, is that the larger 700c wheels will be smoother (if there's no suspension) over bumps, because of the physics of the larger tyre diameter.



Zoiders said:


> ...the forks tend to be rubbish if they are suspension and they don't take a full size 2" off road tyre either.


 Whilst not agreeing with Zoiders' way of putting things across, I agree with his point about suspension. Cheap suspension forks are pretty nasty to ride and have a limited life span, as well as sucking up pedalling energy and adding weight. 

I couldn't find a decent (IMO) fork fitted to anything under £450 when I was looking a couple of years ago but, conversely, I love riding the rigid MTB's and the Tricross off road, even without suspension. Most tyres over about 32mm / 1.5" (for 700c or 26" respectively) will soak up the nasty high-frequency vibrations riding on cinder trails and single track and they'll still be up to decent riding on the tarmac.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

thanks Norm your post is very educational


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## Cubist (18 Sep 2011)

How about a Voodoo? Aqwa just over budget at £429.
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/..._productId_786855_langId_-1_categoryId_165534 



Marasa a bit cheaper at £349
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/...uctId_786807_langId_-1_categoryId_165534#dtab

Both look great in the flesh. Try to see past eh Halfords bit.


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

Norm said:


> The size of the wheel is a small, possibly irrelevant factor when relating pedal strokes to the amount of ground covered. The main dependency is the gearing and MTBs (again, generalising) have lower gearing than road bikes. However, most people ride at a certain cadence so will select gearing to match.
> 
> 700c wheels roll easier because they are generally fitted with higher pressure tyres, but this again relies on the relative specs as you can get high pressure road slicks for 26" wheels and knobblies for a 29er. The main difference, though, IMO, is that the larger 700c wheels will be smoother (if there's no suspension) over bumps, because of the physics of the larger tyre diameter.


Yep I should have said generaly cover more distance per pedal stroke.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

I have just see this what does everyone think, could be a bargain...was in the £460 value brackets so components / forks / brakes shouldnt be too poor??


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## Norm (18 Sep 2011)

The Voodoos which Cubist links to are lovely bikes. However...



xxmimixx said:


> I have just seen this what does everyone think, could be a bargain...was in the £460 value brackets so components / forks / brakes shouldnt be too poor??


 ... the Myka is a good entry-level spec, IMO. The forks aren't the best, but they are lockable and the only have 80mm travel (enough for your intended use), which is better at that price than the forks which offer 100mm travel. BB5 cable discs are good, as is the drive train, BB etc. 

However, the bike is now available at £370 new, with warranty etc


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> I have just see this what does everyone think, could be a bargain...was in the £460 value brackets so components / forks / brakes shouldnt be too poor??


Looks good. Go for it.


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## xxmimixx (18 Sep 2011)

Norm said:


> The Voodoos which Cubist links to are lovely bikes. However...
> 
> ... the Myka is a good entry-level spec, IMO. The forks aren't the best, but they are lockable and the only have 80mm travel (enough for your intended use), which is better at that price than the forks which offer 100mm travel. BB5 cable discs are good, as is the drive train, BB etc.
> 
> However, the bike is now available at £370 new, with warranty etc



or here for £359.99 but they are open to offers 




Angelfishsolo said:


> Looks good. Go for it.




shullup you are jsut fed up with this thread now....


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## Angelfishsolo (18 Sep 2011)

> shullup you are jsut fed up with this thread now....


Not at all. If you see a bargain go for it. At the price you are looking at there will be little difference in feel so you might get the one you like the look of the best


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## twobiker (19 Sep 2011)

Having shocks on my MTB means I can ride it sooner after Broken arm than my touring bike, also on a varied route of lanes, and narrow twistys both bikes averaged the same speed as there was not enough fast road for the tourer to benefit from its higher gearing.


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## element (19 Sep 2011)

I would get one of these provided you can find a special offer somewhere.
http://www.ridgeback.co.uk/bike/momentum


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## MontyVeda (19 Sep 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> I have just see this what does everyone think, could be a bargain...was in the £460 value brackets so components / forks / brakes shouldnt be too poor??



A friend of mine has one of those in black, she loves it... looks gorgeous, nice and curvy like a girls bike should be


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## rovers1875 (24 Jul 2012)

My missus has a Myka and she adores it. 
I had been looking at the spesh crosstrail when I came accross this http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/pro...-12?bct=browse/bicycles/commuter-hybrid-bikes so went and had a look and bought it, almost identical spec to the crosstrail sport disc and £100 quid cheaper. So far thoroughly enjoying it.


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## Cyclist33 (24 Jul 2012)

xxmimixx said:


> thanks Monty, how about the Felt QX70?
> or Specialized Crosstrail?
> or Cannondale Quick?


 
I've got the men's Quick 3 (around £700) and it is excellent for the price - light, nimble and relaxed. It is very short to sit on although the wheelbase is normal enough, but maybe look at one size up from what you were expecting... They do a women's model too with a slightly lower crossbar etc. To be honest the men's one is quite, er, curvaceous and low-slung anyway. Anyway... I assume you mean the one with a carbon fork and no suspension? That's what I've got. It's really a roadster but with plenty of space for wider tyres - I got a pair of knobbly tyres as an off-road set when I bought the bike.

Note - the stock tyes - whilst great - on the Quick 3 are rated as 32mm width but are actually 25mm when measured, so sharper riding but less comfy. And not especially light but no punctures so far this year touchwood. The Quick 4, when I looked at it, had I think either 32mm or 37mm tyres with a bit of tread, made by Kenda, and while slower, it was a lot softer to ride. That was about £500 I think.

One small issue with the carbon-forked Quick, I have managed to knock the front wheel out of true when taking it off road once, but to be honest it was a slightly rougher ride than what you described. But if you are thinking about the Quick CX (which you didn't say), I should think that would be more than tough enough for most jobs.

I've just done 43 miles tonight on the road but with a short section of inoffensive dusty track, and no problems, just floated over it really. On the road-tyres.

Chucking another one in the mix, my sister has just bought a Giant Escape 3 W, which has a ladies' step-over crossbar, although I believe they do one with a higher crossbar too. It's a great bike, cost £300, very comfy, steel forks and pretty light. Seems indestructible. Nice colour options....

Cheers

Stu


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## VamP (25 Jul 2012)




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## billflat12 (25 Jul 2012)

since OP. xxmimixx last posted in sept2011 that specalised myka has
gone down from £460 to £285 no less !!!
http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Specialized...ens-Mountain-Bike-2011-Hardtail-MTB_38788.htm
( could be desperate to sell by now ? )


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## Biglad82 (26 Jul 2012)

[QUOTE 1548923, member: 45"]Carrera Subway 1. Cheap and cheerful and discounted at the moment.[/quote]
I'll second this, just got myself one


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