# Swimmin'



## Monsieur Remings (22 Jan 2014)

Well, I like to cycle and despite having a tendency to overcook it too soon, I also like a good run  so that leaves swimming...

I'm going to have a go at a few duathlons this year but I'd very much like to be able to tri tryathlon, and having been bought a year's membership at the local gym (with pool) by my finer half, it seems a shame not to have a go despite the fact I'm pretty piss poor.

I've gradually upped my distances going up from 20 to 40 to 50 lengths (1km) but not all in one go. Last night was the first time I managed 1km but I had to rely in large part on breast-stroke due to the intensity of front crawl but this is the problem. Although I'm certain I could do - with a bit more training - anything up to a mile or so with breast-stroke I have dodgy knees and although pain would be a slight exaggeration on what they feel like today, I have vowed not to do breast stroke again being bad as it is for knees. I've suffered a few minor injuries with running but they haven't affected my ability to be able to cycle being impact related, but I'm not prepared to risk buggering up my knees (and hence my cycling) for swimming full-stop. SO, that leaves front crawl and despite my technique needing work I'm here to ask whether any folks can help with proper breathing technique.

As a bit of background I didn't swim for years and then I was told I wasn't able to swim for a few more years when perhaps I would have done due to having hearing issues (water in the ears wasn't good) so I have a feeling of complete estrangement being underwater. Today I bought some goggles and in recent weeks I've read much on breathing technique so I had a go. Coupled with this I had a go at exhaling underwater which felt totally unnatural at first but I soon got the hang...sort of. Problem is I can only manage at most 2 lengths before I once again feel that anxiety that is brought on through oxygen debt.

So, have you or did you as a triathlete, perhaps a late triathlete like me (I'm 41 this month) go through something similar and how did you manage to relax, and get your breathing in order and your underwater exhalations into some sort of rhythm that works for you?

Any advice on breathing and rhythm would be most appreciated.


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## screenman (22 Jan 2014)

Join a tri club and join the swimming sessions, they will have a coach there who will help, I only started back in July as a nearly non swimmer, 80+ lenghts or more per session now.

Also buy the Swim Smooth book, next to your trunks and goggles it will be the best spend you can do.


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## Tommy2 (22 Jan 2014)

Slow down, don't push to hard at this stage.
breathe as many strokes as you need to. Technique and rhythm is everything in swimming.

It will come in time it is a matter if getting used to having to breathe at a specific time as opposed to when you want. Swimming is all about repetition.

Join a tri club or get a coach you will progress so much quicker than going alone.


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## Monsieur Remings (22 Jan 2014)

Nice one Screenman and Tommy, good advice methinks.

Thanks.


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## Monsieur Remings (22 Jan 2014)

[QUOTE 2887051, member: 45"]We were on the sea front at Clevedon a few months ago. Horrible weather, cold and blustery. A group of pensioners appeared in swimming gear, wandered down the jetty and swam off into the distance.

Brave people.[/quote]

Yes, New Year's Day is an annual fixture for Clevedonian pensioners to battle the currents. Like you say, brave people. I paddled a canoe to Lady Bay around 5 years ago and the current was insane- it took nearly an hour to get there and about 30 seconds to get back.


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## Tommy2 (23 Jan 2014)

[QUOTE 2887051, member: 45"]We were on the sea front at Clevedon a few months ago. Horrible weather, cold and blustery. A group of pensioners appeared in swimming gear, wandered down the jetty and swam off into the distance.

Brave people.[/quote]
Did they come back?


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## screenman (23 Jan 2014)

My morning swim sessions feels a bit like being in the film Cocoon, there are a few 70 and even one 82 year old that get in do their 40 or 60 lengths each day at a good pace, then they get out and go and get on with a busy day. 

Then there are the one's who struggle to do a length at a time, but you can really see them improve week on week.

For me swimming gives me another 3 hours per week of quality exercise, which is not affected by the weather and it takes very little out of my week. Two session at 7.30am and one at 7.30 pm, I wish I had started years ago. I am looking forward to the open water swims, in warmer times that is.


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## DCLane (23 Jan 2014)

Last year I did 2 triathlons (Sprint & Olympic) - a tri coach was great for the swimming. Practice and get some coaching. It's made a great difference and I thought I could swim beforehand. Try to breathe both sides, exhale underwater and keep the strokes per length low. It's about getting a 'full stroke' rather than short ones.

I still do one session a week, which is a mile in about 35-40 minutes. Compared to when I started out, it's about 2-3 times faster than a year ago.


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## thom (23 Jan 2014)

If you are prepared to take a step back and try to start from scratch, the book "Total Immersion" is what I used when I did a few triathlons a while back. I could do the breaststroke all day but couldn't do the front crawl. The book really helped me get some kind of technique and I like the emphasis on efficiency as opposed to feeling like you're ploughing through water.


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## Monsieur Remings (23 Jan 2014)

Some great advice here, thanks folks.


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## bathtub (23 Jan 2014)

Lots of good info on this swimsmooth website.
http://www.swimsmooth.com/
also worth downloading the Mr smooth stroke demo

Have Fun


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## screenman (24 Jan 2014)

The book I advised the OP to get earlier is also a great read and good for going back to. I have gone so far to have Swim Smooth lessons once a month on a one to one basis.


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## VamP (24 Jan 2014)

And once you get your freestyle resolved, make sure you get a wetsuit and some open water sessions in. It's a whole different ball game to pool swimming, and you don't really want to be trying it out for the first time on race day.


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## Tin Pot (24 Jan 2014)

DCLane said:


> Last year I did 2 triathlons (Sprint & Olympic) - a tri coach was great for the swimming. Practice and get some coaching. It's made a great difference and I thought I could swim beforehand. *Try to breathe both sides, exhale underwater and keep the strokes per length low. It's about getting a 'full stroke' rather than short ones.*
> 
> I still do one session a week, which is a mile in about 35-40 minutes. Compared to when I started out, it's about 2-3 times faster than a year ago.



I wouldn't agree with this at all.

Swimsmooth is good and getting a swim coach is good, but you are training for open water, not the pool. No one gives a fark about a "full" stroke, rather than a short one, and the number of strokes per length is scientifically irrelevant.

Anyway, on breathing specifically - don't get in to do a long distance. Get in do a few two/four lengths hard to warm up. You're not used to being underwater, and your body is panicking a bit, so get going and stop. Then, if you must, do your long swim. I would advise Breathing every second stroke until you feel that you don't need to - there is no need to force it.

Off topic - Far better than a long swim in the pool are pyramid sets and using the pull buoy (promotes faster shorter strokes - see my original objection). You will not be kicking in your Tri, this section is about arms, rhythm and balance. You legs are for the bike and run.


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## Tommy2 (24 Jan 2014)

Full stroke is more efficient so use it, the tricep extension phase at the end of the stroke is where a lot of the power is produced. Don't swim like a hamster whether in the pool or open water.

The ability to breathe Bi lateraly is almost essential in race conditions if somebody is swimming on your preferred breathing side.

Don't jump in the pool and go hard from the start you won't have full mobility in your shoulders resulting in poor stroke or at worst an injury, warm up with back stroke and breast stroke.

You will kick in a tri swim, but get a coach to show you what an efficient kick is so as not to waste energy (don't bend at the knee).

A mix of pull bouy and kick board work is best to isolate upper and lower to focus on technique.

Warm up set, 5 sets at just above race pace with 15 seconds rest between, swim down set.

In short, get a coach.


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## Tin Pot (24 Jan 2014)

Tommy I'm not diametrically opposed to your point of view, but I dont think you're taking into account the OP fully, and you aren't appreciating the difference between pool and OW. Kicking is basically, though not totally, a waste of energy. You get virtually no gain, for a lot of energy.

A "full stroke" to a beginner, and yes Im making an assumption, is likely to encourage a long stretch and glide, the opposite if what's needed in a tri.

Going hard at the start does not mean hurt yourself. It means do some fast laps to warm up and get used to the breathing. Trying to do fifty laps from the get go when you have breathing trouble ain't a good idea and will demoralise you.

You overstate the importance if bilateral breathing massively. For someone unable to do fifty continuous laps, its a luxury. First time triathletes have even got away with breast stroke. It is NOT essential to breath bilaterally.


Otherwise, we're on the same page


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## jay clock (24 Jan 2014)

I do a lot of triathlon malarkey (long distance) and my number one tip re the swim is to get technique right BEFORE upping the distance. Once you get in open water, enjoy the benefit of the wetsuit - a massive difference. To give an idea my first Ironman was 1h20 swim, second was 1h50 as non wetsuit due to warm conditions.....


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## screenman (24 Jan 2014)

jay clock said:


> I do a lot of triathlon malarkey (long distance) and my number one tip re the swim is to get technique right BEFORE upping the distance. Once you get in open water, enjoy the benefit of the wetsuit - a massive difference. To give an idea my first Ironman was 1h20 swim, second was 1h50 as non wetsuit due to warm conditions.....



Yep! I get it you like dressing in rubber! No need to make excuses.


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## screenman (24 Jan 2014)

Tommy2 said:


> Full stroke is more efficient so use it, the tricep extension phase at the end of the stroke is where a lot of the power is produced. Don't swim like a hamster whether in the pool or open water.
> 
> The ability to breathe Bi lateraly is almost essential in race conditions if somebody is swimming on your preferred breathing side.
> 
> ...



Slight differences going on here, I have been coached by 4 coaches so far, none suggest a kick board, in fact they give reasons against it. I struggle with breast stroke due to knee problems, so I just warm up slowly with front crawl. I do agree with not going out hard, and I would suggest a stretching regime before entering the water helps.


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## Monsieur Remings (25 Jan 2014)

Okay, another question...nose clips? Worth it or nay?

And thanks again people.


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## Monsieur Remings (25 Jan 2014)

jay clock said:


> I do a lot of triathlon malarkey (long distance) and my number one tip re the swim is to get technique right BEFORE upping the distance. Once you get in open water, enjoy the benefit of the wetsuit - a massive difference. To give an idea my first Ironman was 1h20 swim, second was 1h50 as non wetsuit due to warm conditions.....



Yep, this is the philosophy I've started to adopt; I've swam 3 times since the first post, going back to 20 lengths but concentrating entirely on breathing and technique. To me, unless I can do the distance without having to rest, there's no point in attempting it. Needless to say, these lengths are not non-stop but are giving me more experience per session.


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## jay clock (25 Jan 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Okay, another question...nose clips? Worth it or nay?
> 
> And thanks again people.


No. PersonallY I think you have to butch up and exhale trhough the nose and the mouth. As you are going forwards and exhaling all the time I think it is unnecessary. And it is another bit of kit to worry about on race day

For anyone who wants good swimming advice I strongly suggest the Swim Smooth website


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## Monsieur Remings (25 Jan 2014)

Thanks mate, from a seasoned triathlete that's sound advice. I do in these early stages find myself experimenting with both mouth and nose exhalations under the water.


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## buggi (26 Jan 2014)

don't try and breath in on every other stroke. Most people come up too soon. The correct way is the 3rd or 5th stroke (whichever is comfortable) so that you breath either side reducing rolling, but for beginners this can be hard as they find one side is always easier, so breath on the fourth stroke whichever side is easier.
it's a quick intake on stroke 1 and then a long breath out on stroke 2, 3 and 4. Its important to get in a rythym.
so, at the side, take a deep breath and push off. Swim for 4 strokes and on the 4th stroke, as your arm comes out the water, turn your face to that side and take a breath. As your arm goes over, the opposite arm is pulling stroke 1 (get it?). As your over arm goes back in, your face goes back in and this pull is stroke 2. Breath out slowly through stroke 2, 3 and 4 but as the 4th stroke comes out the water (and your other arm is then pulling stroke 1 again) turn head and breath in quick, etc etc. It's a rythym.

1...2...3...4, 1...2...3...4, etc

remember that your head creates a bow wave, which creates a dip behind the wave and this is the space where you breath. Its easier if you look back towards your hand coming out the water when you take a breath in.

hope that helps. Once you get it you can then try it from either side (breath on 3rd or 5th stroke) and breath out through mouth or nose, whatever is more comfortable to you. As you are going forwards you are less likely to get water up your nose anyway.


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## Monsieur Remings (26 Jan 2014)

Okay, will certainly bear that rhythm in mind Buggi, nice one.


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## Tin Pot (26 Jan 2014)

buggi said:


> don't try and breath in on every other stroke. Most people come up too soon. The correct way is the 3rd or 5th stroke...



The correct way to breathe is when you need to.

Every third is great in ideal conditions, given a certain level of swim fitness.

For whatever reason (stroke rate, swim fitness, weather, ...) use whatever rate is good for you at the time. Forcing a breath rate is a fools errand.


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## fimm (7 Feb 2014)

I use a nose clip, because otherwise I get a blocked nose for a day or two due to a reaction to the chlorine. Once I got used to breathing out through my mouth (which IIRC only took a session or two) it was fine.
I learned to swim crawl aged 35ish. I've done triathlons up to Ironman. I'm still slowish by triathlon standards (though I'm having a swim focus this winter and trying to swim 3 times a week, which I think is helping).

My advice: +whatever to SwimSmooth which has already been mentioned several times.
Get someone who knows what they are talking about to watch you swimming. It is very hard to work out what you are doing wrong, but much easier for someone else to spot it. So see if you can find a tri club or stroke improvers' class or something along those lines.


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## jay clock (7 Feb 2014)

Tin Pot said:


> The correct way to breathe is when you need to.
> 
> Every third is great in ideal conditions, given a certain level of swim fitness.
> 
> For whatever reason (stroke rate, swim fitness, weather, ...) use whatever rate is good for you at the time. Forcing a breath rate is a fools errand.


I agree. Buggi is right than being able to bilateral breathe is good but in my view it is not essential. I have done 2 Ironmans and 4 or 5 halves with breathing every stroke )right hand side only). I can just about breathe to the left if pushed, and the main benefit is to be able to breathe away from the waves in sea swims partic.


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## screenman (7 Feb 2014)

I thought bi lateral gives you a smoother stroke, well that is what my Swimsmooth coach tells me.

In truth I am happy not to drown.


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## jay clock (7 Feb 2014)

screenman said:


> I thought bi lateral gives you a smoother stroke, well that is what my Swimsmooth coach tells me.
> 
> In truth I am happy not to drown.


yes, agreed. It is an excellent goal but there are a lot of triathletes who don't.


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## screenman (8 Feb 2014)

jay clock said:


> yes, agreed. It is an excellent goal but there are a lot of triathletes who don't.


There are Olympic champions who do not when racing sometimes, but they sure practise it in the pool whilst training.


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## 2old2care (18 May 2014)

Get a video analysis of your stroke from a Swimsmooth coach he/she will sort your stroke and any other issues out far quicker than any other method.

I wasted lots of time and money (years) trying to sort my swimming out myself, and what became evident is that you cannot see what you are doing in the water. What flaws you might have will not be noticeable by feel. I thought I was swimming correctly and wondered why I wasn't going as quick as other swimmers, until some one else pointed out flaws in my stroke.


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## Arsen Gere (6 Jun 2014)

2old2care is right.
I use a go pro on a stick, video from front, above and side.
Slow the video down, try to eliminate sideways and up down action leaving front to back movements.

Then use a finis tempo trainer. Set a pace per length that leaves you knackered after 10 reps of whatever distance you are aiming for - e.g. 10 x 100m for sprints/standard. Don't focus on speed, focus on hitting the times with as little effort as possible. You can start with much shorter distances like 5 x 25. You can't improve what you can't measure.
Most folks start off around 38 sec per length and the times come down quite quickly to around 30, so 8min 400's. Which is not a bad time for people who want to complete a triathlon. 

I don't care if you breath out of your left/right or your bum. Sort yourself out.
Using this technique I've had an age grouper going from struggling to do 25m to a podium place in 6 months. (Good cyclist - not so good runner - non-swimmer).

Most of the people who start off swimming start off with sinky legs. A simple flutter kick gets them out of the way and they are not knackered at the end of a length and they can think about something other than dieing.


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