# Amazing answer!



## oldworld (14 Oct 2020)

I emailed Bikester about the availability of a replacement battery for a bike they are advertising.
This is the reply I had back
'

Thank you very much for your e-mail.

Unfortunately, we don´t sell the battery separetly from the bikes.

However, if you have any problems, every bike has a warranty of 2 years.


If I can be of any further assistance please don't hesitate to ask.'

I'm sure that the battery will be OK for 2 years but at some point it will need replacing.
This has really put me off buying an ebike as I expect things to last even if it means replacement parts.
Is this normal for ebikes? Maybe I've picked the wrong company. If not ebikes are far from 'green'


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## RichardB (14 Oct 2020)

My ebike is 6 years old and the battery has been maintained/charged as per manufacturer instructions. So far, it doesn't seem to have lost any capacity and the bike still has roughly the range it had when new. However, I was browsing the spare parts section of the website and a new battery would be £535! Even a refurbed unit (from an unknown ebay seller) is around £350. When the battery does die, I don't know what I will do. By then (hopefully a while yet) the rest of the bike will be tired and in need of an overhaul, and it may be scrappage time. Prices are coming down all the time, and you can get a new bike for not much more than that.

So yes, not very eco. However, my view is that nothing that relies on a battery is eco-friendly anyway - the rare metals used, and the conditions they are mined in, are terrifyingly nasty. Electic bikes are great for several things (getting people out of cars, getting good exercise - yes, really - and reducing street-level pollution. But they are not the answer to the planet's problems, more a step towards something better.

If you go over to the Pedelecs forum, the general consensus is that getting an old battery refurbed is probably the way forward for most people. It still costs a lot, but weigh it against the petrol/diesel you have saved, and it's not so bad.


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## oldworld (14 Oct 2020)

I so dislike this idea that it's acceptable that things don't last. I think what you say about batteries not being green is correct. 
I'm not fanatically green but when buying something I always consider it.
More than anything I was shocked by the reply from Bikester that with a 2 year guarantee I'd not have to worry.
I understand your bike is 6 years old and the battery is fine but if, after 2 years, it died you'd very likely not want to scrape the bike.
I'll do a search for the Pedelec site and see what more I can find out.
Still amazed by the mail.


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## Drago (14 Oct 2020)

Its not unusual for ebike batteries to not be available separately. That said, Hafords get a lot of stick but tuey will supply Carrea ebike batteries on their own.

But fear not. As Richie B above mentions, cared for properly and used regularly they can have a good life. Even better, when it does eventually die there are many companies who will re-cell them for less than half the price of a new battery, and usually with greater capacity. 

Buy the bike you fancy and rest easy.


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## ebikeerwidnes (14 Oct 2020)

I have had ebikes for over 10 years and the only time I have had a battery that needed replacing it was 5 or so years old.
The original one from my old ebike (from 2099/2010 originally) lasted for 5-6 years then I got a new one from the manufacturer with no problem. When that one wore out I got it recelled and all was good. Funnily enough while the 'new' one was being recelled I used the old battery and it seemed to have gained range again while being only lightly used for a few years - dunno why.

3 points
a) most ebike batteries seem to be OK to recell - but probably NOT Bosch - I suspect they deliberately make it impossible "for safety reasons" - which - strangely - means that you have to buy a new battery from them for a lot of money - funny how it works out like that ;-)
b) as you can see from above - when I have needed a new battery I have always been able to get one from the manufacturer - maybe I have just been lucky
c) As far as them 'wearing out' is concerned - it is not bad manufacturing - it is the nature of the chemical processes that store and release the energy so it is unavoidable. The better the control systems in the battery then the better it lasts. Hence electric car batteries last quite a few years - ebike batteries can last 5 or so years (depending on use obviously) whereas very small batteries for ecig/vape things seem to go bad after a few months - it seems to depend on the cost and weight - a massive car battery can add on an expensive control system with only a small percentage increase in price - the same system for a vape stick would greatly increase the size and weight - and the cost would be much much higher in percentage terms


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## Drago (14 Oct 2020)

Ultimately degradation and eventual failure is unavoidable. Nevertheless, most that fail do so because of a poor pattern of usage and charging, a little bit of forethought goes along way...

https://electricbikeaction.com/amp/complete-e-bike-battery-care-guide/


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## oldworld (14 Oct 2020)

I've read that a battery can be recharged about 700 times. To maximise battery life I'm guessing you need to charge it as few times as possible and still get the range?
I have now an addition factor to consider when picking the right bike to buy.
I guess there isn't such a thing as a generic battery or bike that can use them?


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## ebikeerwidnes (14 Oct 2020)

Currently some manufacturers - the more expensive ones - are stating up to 1000 times

but this is confusing

some people seem to be saying that every time you connect the battery to the charger counts as one charge
other say that if the battery is at 50% and you charge it to full - that is one half charge

and as it is known to be unwise to fully discharge th ebattery - in fact the BMS will not allow it - then all charges are less than a 100% charge

so if I do 2 20 mile rides (my normal route) then I reach about 1 or 2 bars left - out of 5 - so about 20-30%
Then I charge it fully - which should be only a 70-80% charge

and Bosch says I should have 1000 if I treat it properly

Which is pretty good!!


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## RichardB (14 Oct 2020)

In my usage, I have only run the battery flat once. It was used every couple of days to about half capacity and then immediately put back on a full charge overnight (or overday as I was working nights at the time). If I didn't use it for a while, it got a maintenance charge (at a lower voltage) every couple of weeks. I reckon overall it has had about 100-200 charge cycles. As I said above, there has been no noticeable reduction in range over 6 years. The bike is a Wisper (as supplied to the German police force, apparently) and seems to be quite high quality throughout, so I imagine the battery control system is one of the better ones. Not sure an Argos special would last as well.

OP, go for it. I don't regret getting mine for a second. I love it and it has a definite place in my garage - but I wouldn't want it to be my only bicycle. Horses for courses. I wouldn't be happy with the reply from Bikester, either. Perhaps try another supplier. But I'd echo @Drago and say if you want it, get it. All problems are solvable in the long run, and they are not likely to rear their heads for a long time.


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## gzoom (14 Oct 2020)

You should get at least 500 cycles from a lithium ion cell before significant degredation. One cycle is a full 100-0% discharge than back up to 100%, that can occur over multiple charging/discharging cycles.

If you keep the battery between 80-20% and avoid letting the battery drop to 0% or charge fully to 100% your get much more than 500 cycles.

If you assume 50 mile range per charge, and 500 cycles, that's 25,000 miles before the battery needs replacing.







Not all battery cells are created equal though, the internal chemistry and discharge rate also have an impact. For example EV lithium ion batteries are significantly more robust to degredation versus off the shelf items which are I presume are in most eBike packs.

3000 cycles at 50 miles per cycle would be 150k miles before reaching 80% degredation!!!

In short don't worry about the battery .


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## Pale Rider (14 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> I wouldn't be happy with the reply from Bikester,



I'd also be annoyed Bikester can't spell 'separately', although perhaps they should be excused because English may not be their first language.


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## ebikeerwidnes (14 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> In my usage, I have only run the battery flat once. It was used every couple of days to about half capacity and then immediately put back on a full charge overnight (or overday as I was working nights at the time). If I didn't use it for a while, it got a maintenance charge (at a lower voltage) every couple of weeks. I reckon overall it has had about 100-200 charge cycles. As I said above, there has been no noticeable reduction in range over 6 years. The bike is a Wisper (as supplied to the German police force, apparently) and seems to be quite high quality throughout, so I imagine the battery control system is one of the better ones. Not sure an Argos special would last as well.
> 
> OP, go for it. I don't regret getting mine for a second. I love it and it has a definite place in my garage - but I wouldn't want it to be my only bicycle. Horses for courses. I wouldn't be happy with the reply from Bikester, either. Perhaps try another supplier. But I'd echo @Drago and say if you want it, get it. All problems are solvable in the long run, and they are not likely to rear their heads for a long time.


good post 

I think the problem is the periods between charges


so if you ride every day over summer and charge a few days a week - then when it gets cold and wet (winter) you leave it for a few months

and during this time the charge decreases - due to chemical stuff.

The ideal - apparently- is that you keep the charge to 50% or so

but most systems do not allow for this to be measured - which makes it diffucult


personally I don't have a problem with my bike - because if the weather is dry I will ride it if I can
but my wife's bike is different
every few weeks/months I take it out out of sympathy - so it tends to go several months between charges in winter
hopefully I take it from 50% charge it to 100% - then ride it down to 50% - which should be OK

but it would be very easy to accidentally allow it to get VERY low - which is BAD - if it gets too low then you can actually destroy the battery - the affected cells are just scrap and only an expert can work out which ones are affected.
So the only thing to do is replace all the cells

so - TLDR - if you ride it regularly and charge it when it get a bit low - you are OK - but this needs to be year round
if your riding varies - keep it over 50% when there might be a long gap between rides
but not tooo high



stuff it - just get one and go out and ride
and buy a waterproof - legs dry out due to heat when riding - do a jacket is enough

just ride the damn thing and it will thank you for it


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## gzoom (15 Oct 2020)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> The ideal - apparently- is that you keep the charge to 50% or so



You don't need to be that precise, lithium ion cells actually loss very little charge over time if the BMS is well designed and truly shuts down, we are talking about months/years at the same charge level if the BMS lets the cells 'sleep'.

The worst thing for degredation is rapid discharging at higher than 1C with no heat management (not relevant on an eBike), followed by letting the charge state run down to 0% and letting it sit there uncharged for an extended period, finally is keeping the charge status at 100% all the time.

As long as you leave the battery at around 20-80% charge status longterm storage of lithium ion cells isn't an issue.


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## oldworld (15 Oct 2020)

I'm coming to the idea that whilst the assistance from a motor is very desirable it brings with it a level of complexity that changes how I view bikes. 
I've cycled most of my life and have been able to mend or replace items that broke or wore out with very little difficulty.
I've left bikes for months not touched and then had a ride. 

Adding a motor adds a lot more complexity but I'm going to have to accept it.
It seem the general view is that ebikes and the batteries are long lasting so that's encouraging. 
Hence the response from Bikester that the bike came with a 2 year guarantee may be of little importance.
I guess if I get a problem after 2 years there's a forum somewhere that may offer solutions.


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## Pale Rider (15 Oct 2020)

oldworld said:


> I'm coming to the idea that whilst the assistance from a motor is very desirable it brings with it a level of complexity that changes how I view bikes.
> I've cycled most of my life and have been able to mend or replace items that broke or wore out with very little difficulty.
> I've left bikes for months not touched and then had a ride.
> 
> ...



Battery service life has improved in recent years.

I have an eight year old Bosch battery which is still going strong.

Bosch guarantee to keep spares in their inventory for at least seven years after they stop supplying the part as original equipment.

If you buy a mainstream ebike, batteries can either be replaced or recelled.

It's more a question of cost, neither process is cheap.


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## ebikeerwidnes (29 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> If you buy a mainstream ebike, batteries can either be replaced or recelled.
> 
> It's more a question of cost, neither process is cheap.


Haven't tried it yet but things I have read suggest that Bosch batteries may not be suitable for recelling
I suspect they may have set them up so it is impossible - and if you try you will brick it

but I could be wrong

I saw something quoting them as saying this was for safety reasons as it can be 'dangerous' if not done properly

so I am expecting to have to replace mine with a genuine Bosch when it gets too old


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## HMS_Dave (29 Oct 2020)

The cells will be replaceable, regardless of what they say. The battery case housing will just be that with a BMS and cells installed, the cells will be more than likely 18650 cells. There are technicians that would replace them. I'd do it myself but then i do have the necessary gear such as a battery spot welder, needed in most if not all instances.
I know it doesn't directly answer your question, but people judge their purchases differently. Personally, i wouldn't worry about it...


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## ebikeerwidnes (29 Oct 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> The cells will be replaceable, regardless of what they say. The battery case housing will just be that with a BMS and cells installed, the cells will be more than likely 18650 cells. There are technicians that would replace them. I'd do it myself but then i do have the necessary gear such as a battery spot welder, needed in most if not all instances.
> I know it doesn't directly answer your question, but people judge their purchases differently. Personally, i wouldn't worry about it...


You could be right
Hopefully it will last a good few years - but I willprobably wait until it is nearly useless and then get a professional to have a go on the basis of 'if you brick it then is was scrap anyway so don't worry'


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## Pale Rider (31 Oct 2020)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Haven't tried it yet but things I have read suggest that Bosch batteries may not be suitable for recelling
> I suspect they may have set them up so it is impossible - and if you try you will brick it
> 
> but I could be wrong
> ...



I think you are right about it not being possible to recell Bosch batteries.

Or more accurately, the recelled battery will no longer work on the bike due to the locked down nature of the Bosch system.

It also uses CANbus wiring, which is notoriously difficult to tinker with.


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## ebikeerwidnes (31 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> I think you are right about it not being possible to recell Bosch batteries.
> 
> Or more accurately, the recelled battery will no longer work on the bike due to the locked down nature of the Bosch system.
> 
> It also uses CANbus wiring, which is notoriously difficult to tinker with.


There are some videos on YouTube where experts open up Bosch ebike batteries and check them out
The ones I have seen, the expert said that the connections were spot welded in a manner that made it almost impossible to replicate on a workbench. I'm not sure of the exact reasons - but it looked like the metal used was very thin.


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## RichardB (31 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> It also uses CANbus wiring, which is notoriously difficult to tinker with.



CANbus has reached the world of bicycles? Say it ain't so!

I have tried for years to avoid buying a car with CANbus but had to give in with the current one. Thank goodness that four out of the five bikes I possess are analogue, and the electric one is knife-and-fork simple.


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## Drago (31 Oct 2020)

CANBUS cars are easy if you understand them. Id rather diagnose a fault with that than have to repair and resynchronise a bank of SU carbs.


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## RichardB (31 Oct 2020)

Drago said:


> CANBUS cars are easy if you understand them. Id rather diagnose a fault with that than have to repair and resynchronise a bank of SU carbs.



And there we must differ  Synching carbs is an absolute pleasure.


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## Drago (31 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> And there we must differ  Synching carbs is an absolute pleasure.


I'd rather eat the peanuts putmof my own sheet!


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