# Supplements or Steroids?



## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

I was chatting to a good guy who has been giving me some training advice from time to time and most of it has made good sense. I knew he did a bit of weight training in his youth as well as cycling at a good level. Long story short, during a recent conversation, he told me that he has been taking a combination of tablets and injections for years, although it's now at a much reduced rate to what it was in his youth. His rationale for taking it is that men lose natural stores of steroid as they get older and it's simply, topping up what we used to call natural levels when we were younger. I politely rejected his kind offer, but it did leave me wondering how wide spread the use of steroids amongst amateur athletes and guys of a certain age actually is. I also wondered if this was something anyone else had come across and if anyone was brave enough to be honest about it?


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## vickster (19 Jul 2017)

Did he not mean testosterone...a hormone...not a steroid...anabolic steroids can make you less 'manly' in the trouser department in fact

Hope he's done his research about the long term effects of anabolic steroids or he could end up with far more issues than he's 'solved'...e.g.
*Common side effects with anabolic steroids may include:*

Severe acne, oily skin and hair.
Hair loss.
Liver disease, such as liver tumors and cysts.
Kidney disease.
Heart disease, such as heart attack and stroke.
Altered mood, irritability, increased aggression, depression or suicidal tendencies.
oh and few more to show how fun they really are...

*Physical effects*
Effects of anabolic steroids in men can include:

reduced sperm count
infertility
shrunken testicles
erectile dysfunction
breast development
increased risk of developing prostate cancer
stomach pain
In addition, both men and women who take anabolic steroids can develop any of the following medical conditions:

high blood pressure (hypertension)
blood clots
fluid retention
high cholesterol
*Psychological effects*
Misusing anabolic steroids can also cause the following psychological or emotional effects:


aggressive behaviour
mood swings
manic behaviour
hallucinations and delusions
He might want to have a read ... http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/anabolic-steroid-abuse/Pages/Introduction.aspx

and then checked over fully by his GP for liver, kidney and heart disease...

It seems pretty bloody stupid to abuse steroids in reality


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## ColinJ (19 Jul 2017)

It seems pretty bloody stupid to abuse testosterone in reality too!


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## S-Express (19 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> Did he not mean testosterone...a hormone...not a steroid...



Testosterone is a steroid...


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## vickster (19 Jul 2017)

S-Express said:


> Testosterone is a steroid...


Interesting, it's a hormone and steroid


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## S-Express (19 Jul 2017)

> A *steroid* is an organic compound with four rings arranged in a specific molecular configuration. Examples include the dietary lipid cholesterol, the sex hormones estradiol and testosterone


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

The guy is in his 50's and says he's been doing it for years. He definitely used the term steroid. He recommended starting easy with Anovar 50 which is a tablet but reckoned to make any real difference you have to inject. I was quite shocked by his frankness, and it got me wondering.


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## vickster (19 Jul 2017)

Slick said:


> The guy is in his 50's and says he's been doing it for years. He definitely used the term steroid. He recommended starting easy with Anovar 50 which is a tablet but reckoned to make any real difference you have to inject. I was quite shocked by his frankness, and it got me wondering.


What, whether he can still get it up?


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## S-Express (19 Jul 2017)

Anyway, I wouldn't just go necking steroids randomly without having some kind of problem for which steroid treatment is prescribed.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> What, whether he can still get it up?


Not my bag man.


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## fossyant (19 Jul 2017)

How old are you ? Don't do it if you plan on having a family.

I take testosterone due to a dodgy operation and my levels are still less than optimal. Without replacement I crashed to about a 1/4 of the norm following surgery. I'm on a maximum dose and still only 3/4 of normal.

It's also illegal without a medical need. Without proper blood testing you should not take it as it can quickly cause heamocrit to rise and anything over 54 can lead to strokes and heart attack.

The injections are very painful after for about 5 days. I had these every two weeks. Even the nurses cringed when they saw the needle size as it's oil based. I've moved to gels now as these give slightly better levels.

Don't even think about it unless there is a medical need.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

fossyant said:


> How old are you ? Don't do it if you plan on having a family.
> 
> I take testosterone due to a dodgy operation and my levels are still less than optimal. Without replacement I crashed to about a 1/4 of the norm following surgery. I'm on a maximum dose and still only 3/4 of normal.
> 
> ...


I didn't. The encounter just made me wonder, who does.


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## fossyant (19 Jul 2017)

Those that abuse it usually take a shed loads of other stuff to balance it. You also risk conversion to oestrogen and it's a complex balance. I'd personally rather not take it but I feel shocking without it (constantly knackered) which lead me to get my full bloods done.


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## winjim (19 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> Interesting, it's a hormone and steroid


Hormones can be anything, they don't really have a defined chemical structure although a lot of them are steroids. A steroid does have a defined chemical structure, but not all steroids are hormones, for example cholesterol is a component of lipid membranes. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid hormone.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

fossyant said:


> Those that abuse it usually take a shed loads of other stuff to balance it. You also risk conversion to oestrogen and it's a complex balance. I'd personally rather not take it but I feel shocking without it (constantly knackered) which lead me to get my full bloods done.


Yeah, that's one thing I noticed, the guy in question sounded like a very knowledgeable chemist. How do you keep on top of the balance, is it just how you feel or bloods?


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## fossyant (19 Jul 2017)

Testosterone is no good orally as it's broken down by the stomach before it can be properly absorbed.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

fossyant said:


> Testosterone is no good orally as it's broken down by the stomach before it can be properly absorbed.


I don't think he was suggesting test, but I may have misunderstood. I thought he was suggesting a steroid tablet, which I assume doesn't automatically mean testosterone.


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## fossyant (19 Jul 2017)

Slick said:


> Yeah, that's one thing I noticed, the guy in question sounded like a very knowledgeable chemist. How do you keep on top of the balance, is it just how you feel or bloods?



He will be guessing which is dangerous. No doctor will prescribe any of the crap he is taking. I had enough of a battle getting replacement and even did a whole year without any replacement to try and disprove the doc about painkillers. Not much fun taking next to no painkillers after breaking your spine and ribs. Bloods done again last December and my values were exactly the same as 2 years earlier before treatment, so I proved pain killers didn't cause it (I was on pain killers occasionally for a botched surgery).

It's not easy to get replacement hormones via the correct medical channels.


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## fossyant (19 Jul 2017)

Slick said:


> I don't think he was suggesting test, but I may have misunderstood. I thought he was suggesting a steroid tablet, which I assume doesn't automatically mean testosterone.



It will be related and most likely illegal.


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## Drago (19 Jul 2017)

I've never used them, but been around enough people who have. I'd question how effective they really are. In any case, they're sooooo last year - its all growth hormones and insulin now.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

fossyant said:


> He will be guessing which is dangerous. No doctor will prescribe any of the crap he is taking. I had enough of a battle getting replacement and even did a whole year without any replacement to try and disprove the doc about painkillers. Not much fun taking next to no painkillers after breaking your spine and ribs. Bloods done again last December and my values were exactly the same as 2 years earlier before treatment, so I proved pain killers didn't cause it (I was on pain killers occasionally for a botched surgery).
> 
> It's not easy to get replacement hormones via the correct medical channels.


Wow, I had no idea. I had seen one or two of your posts that mentioned spinal surgery, but a year without painkillers when your in pain must have been torture. I suppose not everyone has that kind of resolve. I'm glad your getting back to near normal now though.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> I've never used them, but been around enough people who have. I'd question how effective they really are. In any case, they're sooooo last year - its all growth hormones and insulin now.


Yeah, if your injecting. What's all that about, growth hormone, who came up with that?


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## fossyant (19 Jul 2017)

Slick said:


> Wow, I had no idea. I had seen one or two of your posts that mentioned spinal surgery, but a year without painkillers when your in pain must have been torture. I suppose not everyone has that kind of resolve. I'm glad your getting back to near normal now though.


I still don't take them as my endo still puts my issues as pain killer related. It's dodgy surgery. My spinal surgeon said he could operate on my back now but you might not be able to move your legs tomorrow as you already know surgery doesn't always work. I opted to lie on my back not moving for 6 and a half weeks then a spinal brace for 4 months.


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## Drago (19 Jul 2017)

You think that's bad - look at the Synthol idiots.

I've done creatine monohydrate cycling, beta alanine, various BCAAs, vitamins, and that's it. Eventually I stopped them all because it was getting expensive, and I never got any smaller.


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## ColinJ (19 Jul 2017)

You took all that stuff to get smaller!


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## vickster (19 Jul 2017)

ColinJ said:


> You took all that stuff to get smaller!


Maybe something got smaller


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## midlife (19 Jul 2017)

OP is talking about anabolic steroids, nasty stuff!


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## ColinJ (19 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> Maybe something got smaller


A new meaning to _The Law of Diminishing Returns_?


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

fossyant said:


> I still don't take them as my endo still puts my issues as pain killer related. It's dodgy surgery. My spinal surgeon said he could operate on my back now but you might not be able to move your legs tomorrow as you already know surgery doesn't always work. I opted to lie on my back not moving for 6 and a half weeks then a spinal brace for 4 months.


Tough.


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## Slick (19 Jul 2017)

midlife said:


> OP is talking about anabolic steroids, nasty stuff!


Yeah, that's kind of what I assumed, although apparently the anabolic affect varies wildly and not the be all and all. I did a bit of googling and there is a slight effect on endurance with little or no muscle gain. It appears they all do different things, or supposed to.


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## reacher (20 Jul 2017)

Very common place in gyms, easily available and very effective going on the size these mutton heads grow to, but these guys are into size not performance as we know it, I have heard talk of it being used in some cycling clubs how much truth their is in that I dont know, but I would have to say that going on how widespread the use is in gyms now it will be being used by some cyclists, differant drugs for endurance rather than size obviously, but not at all difficult to obtain


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## Drago (20 Jul 2017)

A lot of coppers, particularly the younger males, are gym monkeys, aided by the heavily subsided gym membership at most stations of any size. Two or three years ago a national project was launched by ACPO to try and catch police officers using steroids, the rationale being that they go to gyms, ergo they must have been offered steroids, and temptation must surely have overcome them.

Total numbers of officers caught - zero.

Meanwhile, one force is so strapped for cash they only visit burglaries where the house has an even door number.

Tax payers money and scarce resources being well utilised by the scrambled egg, as usual.


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## reacher (20 Jul 2017)

The one thing that's not going to be disputed is that this stuff works and works very well as for people saying they are using it then it's a differant matter, mostly they like to give the impression that it's all natural to others but will readily talk about it amongst themselves, in other words if your in the club it's an open secret if your not then they want you to look at them as though they were born that way and in their tiny minds have convinced them selves that's the case and their naturally gifted


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## confusedcyclist (20 Jul 2017)

Putting the illegal stuff aside, a good well managed diet will provide you everything your body needs to function and grow, that is unless you have a specific medical condition. Yes, legal supplements are inherently pointless, don't fall for the marketing hype. There's no evidence base to suggest supplements are required to be healthy, or get fitter, the only benefit they convey is convenience, perversely, lots of supplements do increase risk of overdosing certain nutrients, which means taking them can have a net harm. Seriously how hard is it to prepare some brown rice and open a can of legumes, or a boiled egg to snack on after a work out. Don't use supplements. Even protein shakes are pretty dumb when you think about it, powered milk and sugar. Just go straight to the source. Real food.

Get your stuff from your fruit, veg, legumes, brown rice and wholemeal cereals (wholewheat flour, brown pasta etc), you won't go much wrong if you're getting the right amount of protein and carbs. There's plenty of vegan body builders who don't use whey supplements, or eat steaks every night, go to youtube and see for yourselves the hypertrophy possible on plant based diet. It's quite incredible really. Supplements are basically snake oil, and the companies only get away with saying what they do, because they don't actually say anything at all. Don't believe me? Go read the labels. It's marketing bumf. Yet, we still get loads of people repeating pseudo-science on the internet about why you need a post-workout shake to get big, it's all BS.


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## reacher (20 Jul 2017)

The problem with saying their vegan and look at me on you tube is the same as the other meat heads they will all tell you it's natural, I'm not saying their aren't people who can get reasonably big training but theirs a limit and that plateau is only broken through with the use of drugs you can train as much as you want but that size only comes from one thing


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## confusedcyclist (20 Jul 2017)

Indeed, but if one wants to be healthy, you can't get more natural than veggies on your plate!


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## Drago (20 Jul 2017)

Except our teeth enamel is is too thin to withstand a wild vegetwirian diet, unless God planned for primitive man to wash their food in the sink. We also have inscissor teeth, designed to tear at meat, so the most natural plate will have some meat on it too. If people want to go all veggie I've no issues at all, it their business, but they can't pretend its so natural, when physiologically the evidence is to the contrary.


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## confusedcyclist (20 Jul 2017)

Drago said:


> Except our teeth enamel is is too thin to withstand a wild vegetwirian diet, unless God planned for primitive man to wash their food in the sink. We also have inscissor teeth, designed to tear at meat, so the most natural plate will have some meat on it too. If people want to go all veggie I've no issues at all, it their business, but they can't pretend its so natural, when physiologically the evidence is to the contrary.



I agree we can eat meat, and we do. There's no right or wrong, and the choice to eat meat is a moral one for the individual, but your are perpetuating pseudo-science here too.

I can use the same pseudo-science argument about meat. When was the last time you successfully ate a fish, rabbit or cow using only your teeth and without the use of sharp blades or cooking to tenderise before consumption? I'd sure love to see you eat a hunk of raw cow with your "inscissors" like a bear or wolverine might. Cooking enables us to exploit both meat, and otherwise tough vegetables. More likely we evolved to eat mostly plants, but cooking meant we could exploit new food, i.e. those tough root plants that would wear our enamel, just like it enables us to consume meat more easily too. And raw meat isn't eaxctly appetizing to most humans these days. Our "fangs", are not really effective at ripping chunks of raw flesh. We use tools for that.

Humans are omnivores, and when we chew, it's mostly side to side like a ruminant, not up and down like the locked jaws of a shark or croc. Our closest living relatives are apes, and we have similar teeth, I put it to you that their typical diet is 99% plant, and the rest small insects. There's nothing unnatural about going without meat. We are far from designed to eat large amounts of meat, hence the recent massive increase in heart disease, and diabetes since meat became more abundant and affordable thanks to industrialisation.


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## Drago (20 Jul 2017)

Except its not pseudo science. Its an accepted anthropological truth. I don't care one way or the other, but the facts regards our teeth are what they are and are the biggest indicator of early hominid and human diet 

I've also never claimed that the human body was 'designed' or evolved to eat 'large amounts of meat', so I don't see the relevance of that. Our teeth, chemistry, and physiology demonstrate an omniverous heritage.

I've never at any point disputed that industrialisation of food supply has vastly accelerated evolution, in much the same way vaping has appeared before smokers could evolve extra long index fingers. These are protestations against subjects I never commented upon.


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## confusedcyclist (20 Jul 2017)

You might prefer to argue that it's an accepted anthropological truth that humans have incisors that aid in cutting, there's no more science to back up the argument that incisors evolved to cut the flesh of an apple vs. the flesh of other animals. It's an assumption and presumptuous to theorise that the incisor evolved for flesh eating. The truth is neither of us can ever know. That's the pseudo-science.

So yes, incisors cut, it doesn't mean that you have to eat animal flesh, apes don't. They crunch ants with the same molar teeth we would, if we ate ants. If you think they do to the contrary, you probably read too much into planet of the apes. Yes I appreciate the irony in combating your pseudo-science with my own. I find it more intuitive that plant based diet is more natural than a 100% meat diet. There's too much propaganda and misinformation for vegan vs. meat diets. The middle ground probably makes sense, but there's lots of studies that say that even a little meat is bad for you. So typical advice that everything is good in moderation is probably not quite good enough, more likely we should eat ratios much closer to the apes, than typical modern westernised diets. I eat meat/diary, but minimize it as much as possible.


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## Fonze (20 Jul 2017)

Been in and out of gyms all my life, boxing .. Muay Thai .. and many people I've found like to gain an edge however they can.Steroids no doubt can benefit in many ways, increase in strength, recovery time is shorter once trained, but come at a price with your health.
As for cycling, I'm unsure how other than recovering quicker steroid use would help. I'm unsure what Lance A. used , but if in it for just fun I'd stick to a preworkout drink and a good protein or whey protein shake. Just my choice.


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## reacher (20 Jul 2017)

I think it's fair to say that the chemical side of performance enhancing drugs has evolved quite a lot from what was just simple steroid use, theirs a lot of other drugs available to boost performance, recovery, weight gain, weight loss. Just talking to bodybuilders in the gym makes you realise this or search on the net. Having seen people on these drugs I can tell you they work and work very well. Going on the widespread use in gyms i would hazard a guess that theirs a fair few cyclists out their who use the stuff in varying degrees as well.


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## Prometheus (25 Jul 2017)

U should try this
Bioactive *vitamin D* or calcitriol is a *steroid hormone* that has long been known for its important role in regulating body levels 
of calcium and phosphorus, and in mineralization of bone.

Good for replacing fat with muscle, if you are over 40 on a hard training regime.
And just proved it: after a 20 mph collision; me and the bike did a full somersault then a
tarmac slide up into a grass verge. No broken collarbone, no broken femur, no gravel rash
not even a bruise!

I issued a chilling curse on the culprit and cycled on.


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## reacher (26 Jul 2017)

Don't know, I train hard and take nothing and have no fat and I'm old, proper diet and training does the job, much to the consternation of people who tell me they spend a small fortune on supplements and still look like sacks of shite


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## FishFright (26 Jul 2017)

confusedcyclist said:


> You might prefer to argue that it's an accepted anthropological truth that humans have incisors that aid in cutting, there's no more science to back up the argument that incisors evolved to cut the flesh of an apple vs. the flesh of other animals. It's an assumption and presumptuous to theorise that the incisor evolved for flesh eating. The truth is neither of us can ever know. That's the pseudo-science.
> 
> So yes, incisors cut, it doesn't mean that you have to eat animal flesh,* apes don't.* They crunch ants with the same molar teeth we would, if we ate ants. If you think they do to the contrary, you probably read too much into planet of the apes. Yes I appreciate the irony in combating your pseudo-science with my own. I find it more intuitive that plant based diet is more natural than a 100% meat diet. There's too much propaganda and misinformation for vegan vs. meat diets. The middle ground probably makes sense, but there's lots of studies that say that even a little meat is bad for you. So typical advice that everything is good in moderation is probably not quite good enough, more likely we should eat ratios much closer to the apes, than typical modern westernised diets. I eat meat/diary, but minimize it as much as possible.



Apes do eat meat and most species actively hunt. Humans are omnivores, the combination of meat and fire gave us the necessary protein to develop the kind of brains. There's no problem with a good vegetarian diet but it's an ethical choice and not an evolutionary drive.


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## reacher (26 Jul 2017)

You will feel much healthier on a restricted or meat free diet and it's much easier to keep the weight off I have found personally and doesn't seem to effect recovery or training, the guys in the gyms eating 4 kilos of mince and steaks and whole chickens pushing steroids down their necks look ridiculous, like bloated whales with their arms sticking out as they strut around, they don't look the least bit healthy, covered in spots on their backs and chest, they get out of breath just coming down the steps


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## Alan O (27 Jul 2017)

confusedcyclist said:


> They crunch ants with the same molar teeth we would, if we ate ants.


In many parts of the world, "we" do - you should try them, they're tasty


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## ColinJ (27 Jul 2017)

FishFright said:


> Apes do eat meat and most species actively hunt.


Yes, they do - I remember turning on my TV once and found a wildlife documentary featuring a group of very excited chimps hunting a terrified monkey. It was pretty horrific, actually - they got it down out of the tree that it had fled to, ripped it to pieces and ate it.


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## Prometheus (2 Aug 2017)

Well this is why I gave you Fire

The monkey would have tasted better
If it had been minced and fried on a hot rock!


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## keithmac (2 Aug 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Yes, they do - I remember turning on my TV once and found a wildlife documentary featuring a group of very excited chimps hunting a terrified monkey. It was pretty horrific, actually - they got it down out of the tree that it had fled to, ripped it to pieces and ate it.



I remember seeing that, they started eating it while it was still alive.

It was a well planned capture as well, no just chasing it down..

As for steroids and HGH you can tell who's using them by looking at the neck and wrinkly scalp..


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## Slick (7 Aug 2017)

User said:


> Anavar 50 is a very popular steroid for men and women, probably one of the most popular as it can be used to bulk and cut depending on dosage. and side affects are minimal depending on dose, been around for years.


All new to me, but most of that stuff is. I thought it was for the young guns but I'm starting to realise there's quite a range of people using different things.


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## Tin Pot (7 Aug 2017)

When it comes to T I've heard that basic indicators that you _don't_ need supplements is things like getting morning glory.

Doctors can advise beyond that.

As for the rest, it will be down to cost, availability, and how easy it is to keep secret. Like fraud and other forms of deception and cheating, I expect that it is quite prevalent in amateurs.


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## Tin Pot (7 Aug 2017)

User said:


> keeping it secret isn't on issue for those using to stay or get in shape, its openly talked about nowadays.



Agreed - I was referring to amateur sports entrants. Plenty of cheats in cycling sport and triathlon who aren't advertising it.

Among the ill-educated fitness fanatics I would imagine it only takes a "mate" saying "it works for me, dunnit?", but then I'm a bit elitist.


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## reacher (8 Aug 2017)

User said:


> keeping it secret isn't on issue for those using to stay or get in shape, its openly talked about nowadays.[/QUOTE
> 
> I agree, you only have to be in a gym a few days and ask someone in shape for advice and they will tell you all about how to get started, I dont use anything to be clear on this, but the results are startling for those that do, even a few weeks you can instantly tell they are on something, they work and work very well


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## david k (19 Aug 2017)

Saw a documentary on BBC I player a couple of years ago about steroids in Welsh sport.
Apparently they have a bigger problem, of all the rugby players caught the majority were Welsh and this was from both union and league


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