# Thoughts please on liability - crash in race training



## DCLane (13 May 2014)

Your thoughts please on what happened this evening; unfortunately I didn't witness it and neither did any of the other adults there:

My youngest was at a training session with others. He was involved in an incident which has damaged the frame of another child's bike. I've got him to write down and draw what happened before he went to bed this evening.

They were doing short loops round a series of cones to a far point and back at speed in a group of 4 - two pairs. The child who's bike was damaged was in 2nd position (child A), child B was behind him and my child was at the back (child C). A turned left on a shortened loop, turning before the far point, calling out. Child B swerved round him and child C went into the rear chainstay, with a crack on the chainstay. Child C says he didn't hear him call out and tried to stop, but was going too quick. Both fell over as a result but there's no damage to Child C's bike.

Where might liability lie? Mine's got BC insurance but I'm also concerned at what happened, as it's not just about the bike.

Someone there's described it as a racing incident but there's now damage and upset children. As you can guess I'd like to resolve it as best as possible for all concerned.


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## 400bhp (13 May 2014)

It was an accident involving two children. I don't believe there is a liability issue on any of the children (which essentially would mean liability on the parents).

In fact there's a specific clause in BC insurance which states (IIRC) you cannot claim off someone else with BC insurance, so if Child A has BC insurance then that may mean it's a non starter.

There may be liability on the organisers though.

If it was me I would move away from such legalistic talk and offer something towards fixing child A's bike. Do onto others and all that.


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## DCLane (13 May 2014)

400bhp said:


> If it was me I would move away from such legalistic talk and offer something towards fixing child A's bike. Do onto others and all that.


 
Thanks - which was where I was going. The parent's saying it's a new £900 frame and can't be repaired. The frame's £676 at Ribble new, plus fork at £151 so I can see the cost there. They've both got BC Silver cover.

I'm going to sleep on it and consider what to do tomorrow.


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## 400bhp (13 May 2014)

DCLane said:


> Thanks - which was where I was going. The parent's saying it's a new £900 frame and can't be repaired. The frame's £676 at Ribble new, plus fork at £151 so I can see the cost there. They've both got BC Silver cover.
> 
> I'm going to sleep on it and consider what to do tomorrow.



I wouldn't be offering full payment.

The way I would look at this. It's a bunch of inexperienced kids on bikes and there's bound to be the odd coming together. As parents you have put your child into cycle training so you have accepted these risks. However, there is some give and take with such incidents and what a reasonable person would do in such circumstances. I assume that the Ribble bike is one of the more expensive bikes on show. As such I think it's unreasonable for the parent of the expensive frame to expect others to subsidise that risk (relatively more expensive bike) to some extent.


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## jifdave (13 May 2014)

what are the rules of the training session? 
is it an insured club/centre? 
how old is the ribble? would it be likely to have a warranty?


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## DCLane (13 May 2014)

jifdave said:


> what are the rules of the training session?
> is it an insured club/centre?
> how old is the ribble? would it be likely to have a warranty?


 
The Ribble is new.

It's a proper training centre, run under a range of rules. I'd prefer not to divulge which atm as they've been great with him.


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## jifdave (13 May 2014)

DCLane said:


> The Ribble is new.
> 
> It's a proper training centre, run under a range of rules. I'd prefer not to divulge which atm as they've been great with him.


id perhaps have a word with them and see what theyre position on it would be


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## DCLane (13 May 2014)

jifdave said:


> id perhaps have a word with them and see what theyre position on it would be


 
Good suggestion - I did that and they said it was probably a racing incident.


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## Tyke (14 May 2014)

BC advise that you Always check that the event is insured. Before participating in competitive events always consult the event organiser with regard to the existence and extent of liability insurance cover provided for all riders and officials.

Have you checked with the training center ? They must have some insurance in place in case there is an injury to anyone there.


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## YahudaMoon (14 May 2014)

You could change clubs?


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## DCLane (14 May 2014)

Tyke said:


> Have you checked with the training center ? They must have some insurance in place in case there is an injury to anyone there.


 
Thanks Tyke. It's not an event, it's a regular weekly training session.

They're BC qualified coaches and I've checked their website / documents but it doesn't state anything about insurance. There's a membership fee, which we've paid, plus a weekly fee.



YahudaMoon said:


> You could change clubs?


 
Difficult; they're the best local kids coaching for 30+ miles around. And given my youngest has just been lent one of their bikes I wouldn't want to.


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## Tyke (14 May 2014)

If they are taking a fee then they should have some sort liability insurance this sort of thing is expected to happen when they are teaching people to ride so close who are not used to it. It must happen all the time but in most cases will not result in any damage but what would they have done if someone had a broken bone. Might be worth talking to them about it.


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## Profpointy (14 May 2014)

Many posters have misunderstood the organisers' liability & their insurance. This is to cover the organisers if they are sued successfully. ie organisers have to be at fault. Their insurance will not cover general accidents which are not the organisers' fault. Any insurance is not provided as a general convenience for participants.

Likewise, for participants to sue each other, blame needs to be established first. In car terms, you can only claim off the other fella if it's his fault - "knock for knock" is a frequent outcome after all.

To paraphrase the slogan "where there's no blame, there's no claim".

I don't know the ages of the kids, but for a kid to sue another kid, it's only worthwhile if the loser actually has some money. Not really worth winning the £900 quid, and having it paid off at 50pence per week out of their pocket money.

Unless your kid has manifestly done something particularly stupid or vindictive, I'd be inclined to philosophically shrug, and leave it at that. If they sue, it sounds like an uphill battle, and unless your kid has a trust fund, pointless.


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## buggi (14 May 2014)

if child A turned early and child b obscured child c's view of this, then surely its child A's fault? I was in a group ride once where one rider emergency braked bcoz she missed the turn. The rider behind swerved around her and unfortunately i was next in line and didn't stand a chance. Resulting in my head trauma and broken collar bone. Clearly her fault and they probably all knew it bcoz strangely no one knew what happened (i had memory loss ).... Then i found out off someone else who had been filled in on the details. Obviously they all knew she as liable. I don't do group rides now.


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## Spinney (14 May 2014)

What buggi said...

Also, does that kind of crash normally have enough impact to _break_ part of a frame? Sounds like the other parents trying first to claim under warranty would be the way to go.


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## screenman (14 May 2014)

It is a racing incident, you go into cycle racing expecting to crash.


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## DCLane (14 May 2014)

Thanks @Tyke @Profpointy @Spinney and @screenman

Child A's 12 and mine's 9. I've asked mine again (Child C) this morning and he says he didn't see him until Child B swerved and didn't hear the call.

I'm trying to be objective here as they've got to train together. Also, since Child A's parent works for a pro bike team there's a chance he's on here.


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## Spinney (14 May 2014)

Why did Child A turn off anyway? Was this the plan, or was Child A doing something unexpected?


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## DCLane (14 May 2014)

Spinney said:


> Why did Child A turn off anyway?


 
I don't know; they were doing loops around the far point apparently and he said afterwards he called out that he was doing a "short turn". So, no, it wasn't expected.


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## Spinney (14 May 2014)

DCLane said:


> I don't know; they were doing loops around the far point apparently and he said afterwards he called out that he was doing a "short turn".


So basically, Child A changed the 'plan', and although some kind of warning was given it wasn't sufficient to alert _all_ riders to the action he was taking (obviously not sufficient, as your son didn't hear/register)? And this is not a situation like driving on the roads where one is expected to leave enough gap to stop if the person in front stops. 

I know they're kids, but if the parents are trying to claim the whole cost of an expensive bike...
And as screenman said, you should expect to have crashes in racing situations. 

Anyway, good luck with whatever you do about it. Hope any arguments don't put your lad off his cycling.


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## Andrew_P (14 May 2014)

Have the parents actually told you they want you to pay for the bike in full? 

Part of me is saying make an offer but the biggest part says they were in a racing environment even if they where not actually racing it certainly sounds like they were at the very least practicing racing and as such they have to assume and expect accidents and or crashes that may involve damage to possessions and or any children. 

If it was my kids bike I wouldn't be searching around for someone to take the liability unless it was really clear stupidity or the other party did it deliberately such as a barge etc.

I do think you should discuss it more with the instructors.


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## MikeW-71 (14 May 2014)

As it's a "racing" situation, damage/injury is a risk you have accepted. If a crash happens, you pay for your own repairs and that's it.

If you can't afford to replace it, don't race it.


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## PK99 (14 May 2014)

400bhp said:


> In fact there's a specific clause in BC insurance which states (IIRC) you cannot claim off someone else with BC insurance, so if Child A has BC insurance then that may mean it's a non starter.
> 
> 
> that.



if that is correct it is a serious gap in the cover. ctc membership includes such cover.


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## zizou (14 May 2014)

They are just kids so its hard to be harsh on them doing something daft but from the description Child A is the one at fault. You just dont do that sort of thing riding in a group plus IMO even if he had shouted out "short turn" then i'd take that to mean doing a short turn on the front, not actually turning and cutting the course short.

In any case if the frame is carbon it can be repaired these days for much cheaper than it would cost to replace the frame.


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## JoeyB (14 May 2014)

MikeW-71 said:


> As it's a "racing" situation, damage/injury is a risk you have accepted. If a crash happens, you pay for your own repairs and that's it.
> 
> If you can't afford to replace it, don't race it.



This ^


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## marzjennings (14 May 2014)

If you race or even train to race you take the risks and pay for your own damages. Unless your kid was deliberately attempting to crash into the other kid or there's some sort of gross negligent act by the training center then the other parents need to man up and pay for the damages to their kid's bike. Accidents in racing ARE going to happen. As mentioned above "If you can't afford to replace it, don't race it."


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## screenman (14 May 2014)

DCLane said:


> Thanks @Tyke @Profpointy @Spinney and @screenman
> 
> Child A's 12 and mine's 9. I've asked mine again (Child C) this morning and he says he didn't see him until Child B swerved and didn't hear the call.
> 
> I'm trying to be objective here as they've got to train together. Also, since Child A's parent works for a pro bike team there's a chance he's on here.


If his parents work for a pro team, then they should understand that in racing accidents happen and you pay for your own damage. Also that you do not put your child or anyone else's child for that matter under any stress that might take away their enjoyment of the sport.


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## Lanzecki (14 May 2014)

A racing incident. I've yet to see pro teams suing other ones because of a crash...


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## summerdays (14 May 2014)

I think you need to talk to the organisers of the training session and see what they think are the liabilities in this situation. In my mind your son is definitely not wholly at fault so shouldn't be paying for a replacement bike, yes he crashed but the other child changed what they were doing. If you did decide to pay then do you get the entire bike and would the frame be fixable?

I think the organisers should at least have a policy over who is responsible for any damage caused or if there is a maximum amount that you can be liable for. And possibly I wouldn't want my child training with that particular child again. In the same way that you trust some riders more than others and so leave bigger gaps or don't like them following you.

It's a hard choice when you are a parent who maybe feels sympathetic to their problem. I wonder if it had been the other way around whether they would be quite so keen to pay up to replace your son's bike.


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## Fab Foodie (14 May 2014)

It's a racing accident. It's the risk you take, if you can't afford damage to your kit then don't take it to the race. 
I wouldn't offer anything for the damage.


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## Dave Davenport (14 May 2014)

Fab Foodie said:


> It's a racing accident. It's the risk you take, if you can't afford damage to your kit then don't take it to the race.
> I wouldn't offer anything for the damage.


+1


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## gds58 (14 May 2014)

Fab Foodie said:


> It's a racing accident. It's the risk you take, if you can't afford damage to your kit then don't take it to the race.
> I wouldn't offer anything for the damage.


+2 the whole thing is ridiculous. These type of incidents happen all the time in training and racing and we have to accept that it's not always easy to apportion blame and as such we have to just take it on the chin and get on with it. Kids or not!


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## mickle (14 May 2014)

HOW MUCH!?!?!! Who spends £900 (£675 or whatever) on a kids frame??


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## Scoosh (14 May 2014)

Is it worth contacting BC and asking them ?


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## vickster (14 May 2014)

Did I not read a post on a different matter that BC does not engage in cases between members? 

Looks like it, but might be worth seeing of they'll advise

*What is not covered?*

Important exclusions include:

business use (eg cycle courier) but commuting is covered.
deliberate acts.
_member to member liability (claims made against one British Cycling member by another) such as:_

_one member against another in a cycling competition, race, time trial or timed event(5)_

_any liability directly or indirectly caused to a member’s immediate family arising from either social or competitive cycling events_
claims against members who are not resident in Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/membership/article/memst-Third-Party-Liability-Insurance-0

Hope it gets sorted


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## screenman (14 May 2014)

mickle said:


> HOW MUCH!?!?!! Who spends £900 (£675 or whatever) on a kids frame??


Poor people, when compared with what some people spend on go cart racing or MotoX


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## DCLane (14 May 2014)

@vickster @Scoosh @gds58 @Dave Davenport @Fab Foodie @Lanzecki @marzjennings @JoeyB @zizou @PK99 - thanks for your comments.



Andrew_P said:


> Have the parents actually told you they want you to pay for the bike in full?
> 
> Part of me is saying make an offer but the biggest part says they were in a racing environment even if they where not actually racing it certainly sounds like they were at the very least practicing racing and as such they have to assume and expect accidents and or crashes that may involve damage to possessions and or any children.
> 
> I do think you should discuss it more with the instructors.


 
I did when I was there; the instructors view was that it was a 'racing accident'.



zizou said:


> They are just kids so its hard to be harsh on them doing something daft but from the description Child A is the one at fault. You just dont do that sort of thing riding in a group plus IMO even if he had shouted out "short turn" then i'd take that to mean doing a short turn on the front, not actually turning and cutting the course short.
> 
> In any case if the frame is carbon it can be repaired these days for much cheaper than it would cost to replace the frame.


 
True to both. Thanks.



summerdays said:


> I think you need to talk to the organisers of the training session and see what they think are the liabilities in this situation.


 
@summerdays - I'll see what Child A's parents' response is, but I'm probably going to do this. My son's only been going about 8 months but their events are busy with lots of riders.



mickle said:


> HOW MUCH!?!?!! Who spends £900 (£675 or whatever) on a kids frame??


 
Quite a lot of parents, from what I see on a Tuesday evening and at races. We'd set a budget of £600 for my youngest's next bike, offset by what he has now.

I'm awaiting progress, so we'll see what happens next. Hopefully the frame can be repaired and, as a gesture of goodwill, I'm happy to contribute to this.

This evening I took my son out for a ride; he was clearly rattled by what had happened. After a few minutes he calmed down and was OK. The plan is to take him on my 'short' club run on Saturday which I hope will help and he's done the route once before.


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## summerdays (14 May 2014)

DCLane said:


> This evening I took my son out for a ride; he was clearly rattled by what had happened. After a few minutes he calmed down and was OK. The plan is to take him on my 'short' club run on Saturday which I hope will help and he's done the route once before.


I'm glad you are taking him out quickly afterwards. My son had a major off more than a year ago, and I didn't get him out very soon afterwards, and unfortunately he's lost his confidence and enjoyment on the bike for now.


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## DCLane (14 May 2014)

Update:

I've had a response. The frame's been checked and may be repairable; it's got a small crack in the chainstay.







My son's bike did have a problem last night. He said his brakes weren't working fully - and I checked there and at home. One of the brake blocks had broken in half but the brakes worked well on the front and OK on the back. However, he said he didn't have a chance to even brake.

I'll deal with it tomorrow as there's naturally an upset other child and I'd hope for a 'best' solution.


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## fossyant (14 May 2014)

It's though sh1t. That's how it works. You race or train on top kit and crash, then whoop de doo. That's the sport.

Has all ways been this way. No claim against other riders. That's the gamble. Ride what you can afford to fix


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## fossyant (14 May 2014)

PS it's kids as has been said. Don't ride a bike if you can't take a hit. It's not primary school


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## fossyant (14 May 2014)

The other parent needs to get a life. cycling is not for pansies. Crashes are guaranteed.


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## Beebo (15 May 2014)

I think people are getting hung up on the money here.
If the kid fell off but just ripped his £30 shorts no one would worry about it, and it would be put down to a racing incident.
The fact that it is a £600 frame suddenly concentrates minds.
What if the kid had a £6,000 bike, what would you do then?


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## Profpointy (15 May 2014)

Beebo said:


> I think people are getting hung up on the money here.
> If the kid fell off but just ripped his £30 shorts no one would worry about it, and it would be put down to a racing incident.
> The fact that it is a £600 frame suddenly concentrates minds.
> What if the kid had a £6,000 bike, what would you do then?



the position is the same liability wise - just as it would be if kid was paralised and was after two million. Doesn't make the organisers nor the OP's kid liable - and if they're not liable their insurance (if any) won't pay


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## DCLane (15 May 2014)

@fossyant @Profpointy & @Beebo - thanks.

I've replied to the parent and suggested I contribute towards the repair/replacement as a 'gesture of goodwill' but I'm not prepared to cover the full cost as Child A decided to not follow the instructions given. The actual cost is irrelevant, although that he's using a very expensive bike to train on which isn't insured surprised me.

Whilst I appreciate it's a racing incident they have to train/race together - although currently in different age categories. As my son's only been there a few months I'd prefer to find an amicable solution rather than just tell Child A's parent "no". He's 9 and showing an interest which I want to encourage.

I'll keep you updated ...


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## 400bhp (15 May 2014)

DCLane said:


> , although that he's using a very expensive bike to train on which isn't insured surprised me.
> 
> ..



Which bit surprises you? The fact the bike isn't insured for damage?

Try getting property damage cover for racing on a bicycle........


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## screenman (18 May 2014)

DC, whilst reading this I spilled my coffee into my computor which has stopped working, now I hold you responsible for this as it was your post that did it, where can I send the bill?


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## RecordAceFromNew (18 May 2014)

Frankly either morally or legally I don't see why you should contribute anything towards the repair of child A's bike. Morally child C did not cause the accident through negligent let alone intentionally, he was following the instructors instruction to ride fast and close to the child in front.

Legally this from ctc, in particularly sections 3.4 and 5, suggest C/you have no liability legally. There is a possibility that the organiser has liability, but I would be surprised if they did not get parents to sign some form of indemnity, or failing that have suitable insurance. But absence of either is not your problem either.


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## Joshua Plumtree (18 May 2014)

If I was a parent of one of the children not involved in this incident, I'm not sure I'd appreciate the precedent you're setting by agreeing to make a contribution to the repairs. Just a thought.


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## roadrash (18 May 2014)

i wonder if they would be so quick to offer payment if the boot was on the other foot .
its a racing accident , if they cant stand the heat, keep out of the kitchen.


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## summerdays (18 May 2014)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> If I was a parent of one of the children not involved in this incident, I'm not sure I'd appreciate the precedent you're setting by agreeing to make a contribution to the repairs. Just a thought.


But equally they might appreciate the opposite, as their child might be the next one to crash into that bike.

I think there ought to be some clear rules laid out before this event so that you know what you are responsible for in advance.


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## screenman (18 May 2014)

summerdays said:


> But equally they might appreciate the opposite, as their child might be the next one to crash into that bike.
> 
> I think there ought to be some clear rules laid out before this event so that you know what you are responsible for in advance.



The rules are in the history of cycle racing, you expect to crash and you pay for your own bike. In the 44 years I have been actively involved in cycle racing it has been that way, hopefully it will stay that way, anything else and we are heading for disaster.


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## summerdays (18 May 2014)

Just reread the message and realised I missed an important NOT, opps that is what I actually meant, sorry!


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## DCLane (18 May 2014)

@RecordAceFromNew @Joshua Plumtree @screenman @roadrash - I appreciate your views and as a parent I _do_ see the concerns. However, my son's got the chance of being involved for 7-8 years and I'm taking a long-term perspective.

When we're next there I'll have another look at the T&C's as I can't find it on the ones which are on the membership form. The T&C's of membership relate to the riding coaching, not the race coaching. My child won't be the first to be in this situation, nor will he be the last.



screenman said:


> DC, whilst reading this I spilled my coffee into my computor which has stopped working, now I hold you responsible for this as it was your post that did it, where can I send the bill?


 
Erm ... you're an adult. If you can't hold your drink  .


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## screenman (18 May 2014)

You came here asking for advice or opinions of us, most have said to offer anything goes against the code of cycle racing, I am sure you feel your way is correct and I accept your right to that choice. Even though I feel you are wrong. I also know you are quite new to the sport and will not as yet know the unwritten rules.

Let us hope the other parents are reading this and know what a very poor example they are setting, spoiled brat seems to ring about right.


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## DCLane (18 May 2014)

@screenman - thanks and I have really appreciated the advice. I posted last week more as a plea for guidance. And yes, I have ignored much/some of the advice given, possibly as I'm fairly new to racing and this is the first instance I've experienced of a crash in training.

I'm not comfortable with what I've offered, but will accept it given the circumstances. If this'd been in an actual race there's no way I'd have offered anything.


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## screenman (18 May 2014)

Well I hope they turn your offer down.


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## GrumpyGregry (18 May 2014)

MikeW-71 said:


> As it's a "racing" situation, damage/injury is a risk you have accepted. If a crash happens, you pay for your own repairs and that's it.
> 
> If you can't afford to replace it, don't race it.


Spot on. Racing incident. If you can't afford to write your gear off in a crash don't race. Or train. Cos training is racing too.


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## ejls2 (16 Jun 2014)

Sorry for updating a thread that's gone quiet but is there any chance you could let me know how this panned out?

For what it's worth, I would have done exactly what you were proposing to do. I'd view it as a racing incident with no liability for your son and I'd have made that point politely but firmly. I would also have taken the long view that it's better to keep things running smoothly and offer to make a small contribution to the repair. If I was in a particulalry grumpy mood, I might also have made a veiled comment about children training on carbon frames but there you go ;-)

The reason I ask is that a my much younger brother and his friends are in a similar situation. They were doing through and off training when a less experienced thirteen year old pulled off and tapped the brakes a mite hard resulting in a pile up. My brother's frame took a beating but, as it's basically made of scaffolding poles (much to his continued annoyance), it's completely fine. The parents of one of the other children are asking for money from the parents of: (i) the child in front who tapped the brakes (fair enough on one level but it's still a racing incident in my mind); AND (ii) the child behind who went into the back of their child (a bit off in my view).


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## Beebo (16 Jun 2014)

ejls2 said:


> The parents of one of the other children are asking for money from the parents of: (i) the child in front who tapped the brakes (fair enough on one level but it's still a racing incident in my mind); AND (ii) the child behind who went into the back of their child (a bit off in my view).


Talk about having your cake and eating it!
So everyone behind should have been able to stop in time, except their own son?


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## ejls2 (16 Jun 2014)

Beebo said:


> Talk about having your cake and eating it!
> So everyone behind should have been able to stop in time, except their own son?


 
Exactly! I (and others) have pointed out the teensy-weensy degree of hypocrisy and it's all calmed down. I suspect that after a night or two of sleeping on it everyone will back down but I still thought it was interesting. The key factor was that everyone else was riding nice chunky metal frames with entry/mid level components (my brother even had some of my cast-off nine year old Veloce on his!) whereas the child in question had blinged up carbon with Ultegra SL etc. :-)


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## DCLane (16 Jun 2014)

@ejls2 - and others for their assistance here. It's been useful, even if I didn't take all the advice.

It was finally resolved at the end of last week. In the end I paid half of the repair - which totalled £165 and apparently is a good repair.

To keep harmony has cost me £82. I'm happy with that from a long-term perspective. What's ironic is that my youngest isn't riding at the moment as he broke his arm! However, he'll be back training in 2-4 weeks.


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## ejls2 (16 Jun 2014)

I hope you will be sure to reciprocate the request if your son's bike is even scratched as a result of the acts or omissions of said child ;-)


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## Crankarm (16 Jun 2014)

They are kids for Christ's sake accidents are going to happen! It sounds like DC has arrived at the best solution 50:50 with the other party. However I would advise you get the other party to agree preferably in writing and signed, that your part payment towards repairs is NOT an admission of liability whatsoever and is the only and final sum that will be paid in respect of this matter. More widely i think the instructors or training centre would be liable as they have a duty of care to run a safe session as the participants are children. There will be enhanced duty of care as the participants are children and quite young children. But as competing adults you know the risks of racing so you should be prepared to underwrite your own damage to your bike and accessories. Serious physical injury or death I don't know, this would probably become a legal squabble.

I think you made the right call in the end DC even if you or your child weren't liable just to maintain goodwill.


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## Flick of the Elbow (18 Jun 2014)

I'm making a mental note, if I ever find myself involved in the organization of kiddie training sessions I'll make every parent sign a form stating that crashes are inevitable and that costs of repairs and replacements cannot be claimed from either the organisers or other participants.


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