# Afraid of descending



## daisyj (1 May 2017)

I've been cycling for a couple of years on a hybrid and recently bought a road bike. I'm loving the bike and have managed my longest ride so far on it. 

However, I'm terrified of descending and there are steep hills all around where I live. I do descend on the drops but scared myself today as I locked the back wheel trying to slow down. My new bike has rim brakes and the hybrid had discs so I need to get used to that. Is there anything that will help this other than practice?


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## vickster (1 May 2017)

Get cross lever brakes fitted if you don't have them already. Brake all the way down if you feel more comfortable that way


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## craigwend (1 May 2017)

http://www.active.com/cycling/articles/brush-up-on-your-bike-braking-skills-877520

One of the most important skills to learn in cycling in how to brake effectively and safely on steep downhills. There's more to proper braking than just frantically squeezing the brake levers; knowing how to stop could even save your life.

Here are some tips to learn how to use the front or rear brake in a more effective manner and how to brake under various road and environmental conditions:

*Front and Back Brakes*
Walk a few steps, wheeling your bike along next to you. Apply the front brake hard. Release it, keep walking and then apply just the back brake hard. You'll notice that the front brake is by far the more powerful one (it has about three times the strength of the rear one), but that applying it hard makes the back wheel lift.

Out on the road that lift can turn into a somersault. You may also have noticed that applying the rear wheel makes it lock; on the road that can send you skidding.

To achieve controlled braking, you should use both the front and back brakes, and sit well down on the saddle, putting your weight over the back wheel to stabilize the bike. If you feel the bicycle skidding, release the brakes a little before re-applying them.

*Feathering*
Practice feathering, a technique of lightly and rapidly alternating pressure and release of the brakes; this prevents brakes from locking while controlling your speed. Feathering is also useful on long descents when continual pressure can cause wheel rims to overheat, glue on tubular tires to soften, and tires to burst.

On wet roads, feathering helps to dry wheel rims. Avoid cornering and braking simultaneously. If there's an emergency and you really must brake in a corner, put the pressure on the back brake; skidding is preferable to going over the top.

*Get Familiar*
Different makes and types of brake respond differently; the way they work can be influenced by, among other things, the type of rim on the wheel, wet weather, the load on the bike, the speed you're moving at and the gradient of the road. Familiarize yourself with the way your brakes work under different conditions; try to judge how long it takes and how much ground you cover before coming to a stand-still from different speeds, and visualize using your brakes in an emergency situation.

If you have children who ride in the rain, get them to measure the different stopping distances for a bike with dry rims and one with wet rims; they'll grasp the implications of this far better than if you simply tell them that brakes work slowly in the wet.

Some important things to know about braking:


Bicycles take longer to stop than cars do.
Bike brakes take longer to work when the wheel rim is wet.
Brakes work far better on aluminum alloy rims than they do on steel rims.
The best brake pads to use in wet and dry weather are synthetic. Though rubber brake pads have a fair grip on aluminum, they skate over wet steel and result in stopping distances that can be four or five times as long as you'd expect in dry weather.
If you get oil on the rims, you should get off and remove it before going on.
Braking has the effect of throwing weight forward and destabilizing the bicycle. In a sudden stop, and particularly if you're going downhill, this can catapult you over the front wheel; this is more likely to happen if it's the powerful front brake that is applied abruptly.
Abrupt braking on the back wheel can make the bike skid out from under you.


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## HLaB (1 May 2017)

Some folk say descend on the drops but I prefer the hoods it gives me more 'feathering' ability, lets me have more weight on the rear and sit up and form an air brake when necessary. If you are not comfortable in the drops don't use them.


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## Heltor Chasca (1 May 2017)

I'm in Somerset too so I understand your topography! You seem to be doing the right thing in prioritising the back brake and presumably feathering the front. A skidding back wheel is better than the front one skidding under you or chucking you over the bars.

Pick a hill with no parked cars or junctions and practice descending and braking. Each time, aim to increase your speed a little. Maybe even try some deliberate skids. It's surprising how much strength training your hands need. I've been in agony after long decents and worried I might not be able to slow down enough.

Your confidence will only improve so don't let a skid worry you. Before you know it you'll be skidding to a stop at every visit to the café.

EDIT My preference is to descend on the drops. I just 'feel' safer and stronger. Others prefer the hoods for the exact same reasons.


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## mjr (1 May 2017)

It's often surprisingly helpful to get your cranks roughly horizontal unless cornering and share your weight between feet and saddle: riding the bike rather than sitting on it.


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## daisyj (1 May 2017)

Thanks for these suggestions, I think I need to get better at feathering as I do try this but think I'm being a bit fierce. The cross lever idea is definitely food for thought.


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## cyberknight (1 May 2017)

Have you any friends who ride?
Last year i hit the deck after being overzealous on a twisty descent and overcooking a bend, i have been working on it by following riders on club rides and there lines to give me confidence .I am not back to full speed yet but at least i am not terrified anymore.


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## Welsh wheels (1 May 2017)

I've been there, I was afraid of descending when I first started on a road bike. I gradually built up the confidence to go faster downhill, so it's something that comes with time really. You can feel better about descending by double checking your brakes are working well and your tyres are in good condition before you set off, I found this helped. If you don't like it at the moment, then just go down slowly - there's no shame in that and you can't go wrong by doing that. One of my riding partners is a very experienced cyclist and has done LEJOG, but never goes much over 30 downhill because he doesn't like it. It's not a requirement of road cycling that you bomb down every hill you find.


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## daisyj (1 May 2017)

cyberknight said:


> Have you any friends who ride?
> Last year i hit the deck after being overzealous on a twisty descent and overcooking a bend, i have been working on it by following riders on club rides and there lines to give me confidence .I am not back to full speed yet but at least i am not terrified anymore.


I'm glad you got over your tumble, it sounds nasty. Unfortunately my only friend who rides lives too far away for us to ride together and I'm not fast enough for a club yet.


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## mjr (1 May 2017)

daisyj said:


> I'm glad you got over your tumble, it sounds nasty. Unfortunately my only friend who rides lives too far away for us to ride together and I'm not fast enough for a club yet.


Some clubs pootle along at 10mph but there might not be one near you. I guess what I mean is don't assume: check.


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## Markymark (1 May 2017)

On the drops and more front than back brakes.


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## Welsh wheels (1 May 2017)

mjr said:


> Some clubs pootle along at 10mph but there might not be one near you. I guess what I mean is don't assume: check.


Yes, and many clubs have beginner road cyclist programmes and beginner rides.


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## cyberknight (1 May 2017)

daisyj said:


> I'm glad you got over your tumble, it sounds nasty. Unfortunately my only friend who rides lives too far away for us to ride together and I'm not fast enough for a club yet.





mjr said:


> Some clubs pootle along at 10mph but there might not be one near you. I guess what I mean is don't assume: check.


My club has 4 rides on a sunday ranging from about 14 mph to 22 , 2 people turned up on hybrids this week for the slowest group.


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## cyberknight (1 May 2017)

daisyj said:


> I'm glad you got over your tumble, it sounds nasty. Unfortunately my only friend who rides lives too far away for us to ride together and I'm not fast enough for a club yet.


I am still not the best downhill by a long shot, i at least can cope with them , i make up for it when gravity works the other way


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## Yellow Saddle (1 May 2017)

daisyj said:


> I've been cycling for a couple of years on a hybrid and recently bought a road bike. I'm loving the bike and have managed my longest ride so far on it.
> 
> However, I'm terrified of descending and there are steep hills all around where I live. I do descend on the drops but scared myself today as I locked the back wheel trying to slow down. My new bike has rim brakes and the hybrid had discs so I need to get used to that. Is there anything that will help this other than practice?



Locking the rear wheel means you lose traction and steering. Don't use the back brake at all on steep descents. The highest braking force is achieved with the front brake only and just before the rear wheel starts to lift. This is counter-intuitive and difficult to master if you are already married to your rear brake.

Disc brake/rim brake. No difference. The disc brake and rim brake will stop you equally quickly.

Unfortunately fast descending is learnt in your youth and it is just about impossible to acquire those skills as an adult. However, you can overcome your fear if you apply sound principles, rationalise what's happening and practice.


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## Dogtrousers (1 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Don't use the back brake at all on steep descents.


WHy do you say that? Genuine question as I've seen this stated before. Not trying to start an argument, just curious,
Is this just a racing thing?

I use either brake lightly as a preemptive measure prevent speed build up so I don't get into hairy situations. It's not braking hard, so it's not going to induce a skid. Naturally I avoid the braking on skiddy stuff like gravel, but I would hope to have killed my speed before I even reach stuff like that by reading the road ahead.

But I should note that I descend quite slowly compared to other riders and have no interest in doing so more quickly. Just safely and enjoyably.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 May 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> WHy do you say that? Genuine question as I've seen this stated before. Not trying to start an argument, just curious,
> Is this just a racing thing?
> 
> I use either brake lightly as a preemptive measure prevent speed build up so I don't get into hairy situations. It's not braking hard, so it's not going to induce a skid. Naturally I avoid the braking on skiddy stuff like gravel, but I would hope to have killed my speed before I even reach stuff like that by reading the road ahead.
> ...



When braking, you have limited traction on the rear wheel. Traction is extremely important for tracking (steering). As soon as the rear wheel starts to skid, there's a very good chance of the bike jack-knifing under you. A skid implies complete loss of traction and of course steering, because the wheel now just slides equally freely in any direction. Test this for yourself by standing next to your bike on a smooth floor somewhere. Pull the bike along the floor with your left hand whilst pushing sideways on the back with your other hand. You'll notice that it remains on track and won't budge. Now, lock the rear brake and to the same. You'll notice that the rear moves wherever you push it. The exact same happens at speed and is dangerous - even catastrophic.

At the front. When braking, weight transfers to the front wheel and is robbed from the back. This creates a situation where you have unlimited traction at the front and limited traction at the back. When I say unlimited, I mean that maximum braking is not limited by tyre friction but by something else - moment of inertia or overturning (endo), if you like. In other words, the bike with endo long before you reach traction limits on the front wheel. Simultaneously, when you are at the point where the rear wheel just-just wants to lift, that's the point where you could lose traction (steering) at the back. That's the point where even a little bit of brake application will induce the unwanted skid. That's also why you should not use the rear brake at that point.

Fortunately, the front brake works very well in that situation and it is thus perfectly safe (safer in fact) to use only the front brake and not the back one at all.

In any emergency situation such as a panic stop, the front brake alone can cause you to endo, but that does not mean you should not use it. It only means you should train yourself to the point of instinctively moving your body weight backwards when doing an emergency stop. I'm talking about training to the point of conditioned reflex. 

Dragging the rear brake down long hills is not a good idea either. It heats up the tyre, which can pop off it inflated to maximum. It also heats up the brakes to a point where the pads start to melt and braking is decreased with increasing brake lever pressure. It is not a pleasant feeling. Long descents are best tackled with periodic hard braking and release. When not at maximum, it is still OK to use the back brake as well - not exclusively, but as well as the front. When it comes to maximum, such as a racer would do, the front only will get you the best and safest results.

There are plenty of riders in the above recipes and I agree that they apply only to performance-oriented cyclists and we're not going to get the entire population onto that regime.


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## Sharky (2 May 2017)

Last year I was descending down a narrow twisty country road, that I knew well. So was going at a fair speed suitable for the gradient and bends ahead. However, as I was swooping round a gentle left bend, a pair of horse riders came into view, taking up the whole of the road. Instinctively, I went into emergency stop mode and jammed both brakes on. As @Yellow Saddle says above, the rear wheel locked and started to skid, but again, instinctively, I released the brakes and regained transaction before continuing to brake.

I had no chance of stopping in time, but luckily, the noise from the skidding alerted the horse riders and the rider on the outside broke into a very quick trot and moved out of the way, just before I swooped past!


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## Dogtrousers (2 May 2017)

Sharky said:


> Last year I was descending down a narrow twisty country road, that I knew well. So was going at a fair speed suitable for the gradient and bends ahead. However, as I was swooping round a gentle left bend, a pair of horse riders came into view, taking up the whole of the road. Instinctively, I went into emergency stop mode and jammed both brakes on. As @Yellow Saddle says above, the rear wheel locked and started to skid, but again, instinctively, I released the brakes and regained transaction before continuing to brake.
> 
> I had no chance of stopping in time, but luckily, the noise from the skidding alerted the horse riders and the rider on the outside broke into a very quick trot and moved out of the way, just before I swooped past!


Can I be so bold to suggest (in a non finger-jabby and argumentative way) that as you weren't prepared for what you found in the road round the bend (could equally have been a big vehicle like a tractor using both lanes, or slow cyclists/horses going your way and a vehicle coming the other, or two big vehicles squeezing past each other ... or ... or ...) then you were going a bit too fast?


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## Sharky (2 May 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Can I be so bold to suggest (in a non finger-jabby and argumentative way) that as you weren't prepared for what you found in the road round the bend (could equally have been a big vehicle like a tractor using both lanes, or slow cyclists/horses going your way and a vehicle coming the other, or two big vehicles squeezing past each other ... or ... or ...) then you were going a bit too fast?



You might be right, but on this occasion, it was the unpredictable nature of the horses that scared me. If it was a vehicle, I think there would have been enough room for me to squeeze past.


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## Sharky (2 May 2017)

Sharky said:


> You might be right, but on this occasion, it was the unpredictable nature of the horses that scared me. If it was a vehicle, I think there would have been enough room for me to squeeze past.



I think you may know the descent, it's quite a "thrilling" one. I'd climbed out of Eynsford from the memorial (which is quite a nice climb) and then eventually descending down to the Pilgrim's Way. Then I turned left and left again to climb up "Terry's Lodge", another really nice climb on my way back to Longfield.


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## Jody (2 May 2017)

Get used to how much power you can put through the front brake (which is lots). Unless you are starting to lean into a corner you can apply a lot of pressure to the front without issue. If you are applying a lot of front brake then get your weight back a little to keep traction on the rear.

Don't drag your brakes if you are doing long descents. 

Front/rear bias should be something like 80/20


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## Yellow Saddle (2 May 2017)

Jody said:


> Get used to how much power you can put through the front brake (which is lots). *Unless you are starting to lean into a corner you can apply a lot of pressure to the front without issue*.



Can you elaborate what you mean by that?


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## Dogtrousers (2 May 2017)

Sharky said:


> I think you may know the descent, it's quite a "thrilling" one. I'd climbed out of Eynsford from the memorial (which is quite a nice climb) and then eventually descending down to the Pilgrim's Way. Then I turned left and left again to climb up "Terry's Lodge", another really nice climb on my way back to Longfield.


Is that the descent down Cotman's Ash Lane towards Heaverham? I went that way yesterday. It's one of my favourite London escape routes.


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## Heltor Chasca (2 May 2017)

I'm not giving up my childhood so easily. Surely you all can't have forgotten how fun it is to pull skids? Sadly I'm not rich enough anymore to shred rubber like in my yoof.

Rear wheel skid is nothing to be overly scared of and if you can do them deliberately, you know what to predict and how to peel yourself out of a real life scenario. 

None of the above counts for black ice. That stuff is just the work of voodoo queens.


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## Rooster1 (2 May 2017)

I've been riding years and I still scare myself some times down hill. Just lots of practice, give it time - like a year of riding.


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## Jody (2 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Can you elaborate what you mean by that?



In simple terms you can’t brake heavily and corner at the same time. You may get away with scrubbing some mid corner but make sure you have an entry speed sorted before banking the bike over.

If you are travelling in a straight line then you can pretty much use the front brake to its full extent which will be when the back end lifts into a stoppie.


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## cyberknight (2 May 2017)

Sharky said:


> Last year I was descending down a narrow twisty country road, that I knew well. So was going at a fair speed suitable for the gradient and bends ahead. However, as I was swooping round a gentle left bend, a pair of horse riders came into view, taking up the whole of the road. Instinctively, I went into emergency stop mode and jammed both brakes on. As @Yellow Saddle says above, the rear wheel locked and started to skid, but again, instinctively, I released the brakes and regained transaction before continuing to brake.
> 
> I had no chance of stopping in time, but luckily, the noise from the skidding alerted the horse riders and the rider on the outside broke into a very quick trot and moved out of the way, just before I swooped past!


Sunday i was on a similar but unknown descent and i was on the apex when a care came the other way, not fun.

I think the upshot is go as fast as your enjoy and can handle safely , if your not in a race then its better to be in one piece than either in pieces mentally or physically .Still learn to descend but dont push the envelope further than you need to.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 May 2017)

Jody said:


> In simple terms you can’t brake heavily and corner at the same time. You may get away with scrubbing some mid corner but make sure you have an entry speed sorted before banking the bike over.
> 
> If you are travelling in a straight line then you can pretty much use the front brake to its full extent which will be when the back end lifts into a stoppie.



OK, I understand. 

Most people underestimate how much they can safely brake in a turn. It is difficult to quantify but I find that this little questioning method works. I'll try it on you, if you feel like playing. Others can also guess along. 

Question: Let's quantify the "strength" of a curner/turn and give it a number of say, 2, where zero would be a straight line and 5 would be the absolute maximum possible with those tyres on that road surface. 
Now, let's quantify the "strength" of braking. You are braking at 2. Zero is Zero and 5 is where your back wheel just-just lifts. Any more than 5 would see you do an endo.

Now, what is the frictional tax on the tyres if you corner at 2 and brake at 2 simultaneously? By frictional tax I mean the combined effect that has to be resisted by the tyres. Remember, the tyre can take 5 at most.


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## Sharky (2 May 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Is that the descent down Cotman's Ash Lane towards Heaverham? I went that way yesterday. It's one of my favourite London escape routes.


That's the one. Some really nice roads in that area - quite a contrast from nearby motorways and A roads


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## Jody (2 May 2017)

That cannot be far off what the tyre can take as adhesion is already being used to corner. If you are going straight then it will be 0-5 and hard conering will be 5-0


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## KnackeredBike (2 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> OK, I understand.
> 
> Most people underestimate how much they can safely brake in a turn. It is difficult to quantify but I find that this little questioning method works. I'll try it on you, if you feel like playing. Others can also guess along.


The numbers are basically irrelevant because the problem with braking whilst cornering (on a pushbike or car) is that you have very little weight on the back wheel so the risk (especially if you hit a bump or poor road surface) is that the rear wheel will slide out in a thrilling but ultimately impossible to control skid. Indeed, the front wheel continues to grip which is why you spin too.

Done it myself twice and the bike goes from underneath you without any warning.

Obviously when you scrub off the speed in a straight line this isn't a problem.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 May 2017)

KnackeredBike said:


> The numbers are basically irrelevant because the problem with braking whilst cornering (on a pushbike or car) is that you have very little weight on the back wheel so the risk (especially if you hit a bump or poor road surface) is that the rear wheel will slide out in a thrilling but ultimately impossible to control skid. Indeed, the front wheel continues to grip which is why you spin too.
> 
> Done it myself twice and the bike goes from underneath you without any warning.
> 
> Obviously when you scrub off the speed in a straight line this isn't a problem.



Of course the numbers are important. They describe how much leeway you have for using brakes during cornering. How would you attempt to quantify the amount of grip available to you if not using numbers within given parameters?


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## Yellow Saddle (2 May 2017)

Jody said:


> That cannot be far off what the tyre can take as adhesion is already being used to corner. If you are going straight then it will be 0-5 and hard conering will be 5-0



Yes, that's a given, but the question was how much do you think you can have of the one AND the other.


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## KnackeredBike (2 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Of course the numbers are important. They describe how much leeway you have for using brakes during cornering. How would you attempt to quantify the amount of grip available to you if not using numbers within given parameters?


Because braking whilst travelling in a straight line is predictable and easy to measure. As soon as you start cornering you basically have an unknown quantity of weight on the back wheel, which is affected by amount of speed/braking and rider position, times the traction in the rear tyre. It is not as simplistic as x-y, but under the heaviest possible braking it will be nearly nothing.


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## cubey (2 May 2017)

I am very cautious on descents, climbed Home Moss the other weekend and my descent wasn't pretty. Kept the pressure on the disc brakes way to long, resulting in horrible sounds when braking for the next few miles. Fine now though.


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## ColinJ (2 May 2017)

cubey said:


> I am very cautious on descents, climbed Home Moss the other weekend and my descent wasn't pretty. Kept the pressure on the disc brakes way to long, resulting in horrible sounds when braking for the next few miles. Fine now though.


I am not generally a nervous descender but the descent off Holme Moss definitely deserves respect in both directions! On a day without a headwind you could soon be doing 100 km/hr and there are often gusting crosswinds up there. I got blown across the road one time by a sudden gust; I've been more cautious on that descent since then! 

Descent to Woodhead ...


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## J1888 (2 May 2017)

Im kinda similar to the OP, but I find that I can go down a descent quickly and on the drops and then get a sense of my own mortality and lift up on to the hoods and then gently squeeze the breaks intermittently to slow my speed and avoid what feels like an inevitable, nasty crash! I'm 31 but wish I had the gumption of my 13 year old self


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## Pat "5mph" (2 May 2017)

@daisyj I am terrified of descending too, and that's on hybrids, as my road bike has been a wall ornament since I bought it, as I'm terrified of it on the flat 
For some strange reason, rim brakes give me more confidence, I feel I can control the bike better.
I do the "feathering" thing, but after reading @Yellow Saddle's post I'm going to start using only my front brake downhill, maybe it will feel better.
Question:
what do you do if riding a steep downhill and needing to turn right in the middle of it, but also maybe you need to stop for incoming traffic, and of course signal right?


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## nickyboy (2 May 2017)

cubey said:


> I am very cautious on descents, climbed Home Moss the other weekend and my descent wasn't pretty. Kept the pressure on the disc brakes way to long, resulting in horrible sounds when braking for the next few miles. Fine now though.



Holme Moss descents (in either direction) are great. Just close your eyes and hold on tight. That's my descending top tip


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## I like Skol (2 May 2017)

cubey said:


> I am very cautious on descents, climbed Home Moss the other weekend and my descent wasn't pretty. Kept the pressure on the disc brakes way to long, resulting in horrible sounds when braking for the next few miles. Fine now though.


I usually overtake cars when dropping off Holme Moss, especially on the twisty Holmfirth side!!!! 


ColinJ said:


> I am not generally a nervous descender but the descent off Holme Moss definitely deserves respect in both directions! On a day without a headwind you could soon be doing 100 km/hr and there are often gusting crosswinds up there. I got blown across the road one time by a sudden gust; I've been more cautious on that descent since then!
> 
> Descent to Woodhead ...
> 
> View attachment 350528


I have struggled to get much above 50 mph down there despite several attempts in seemingly ideal conditions. My current best bike does seem to be slightly faster again so it may be worth another attempt? The worst bit of that descent is up at the top before the moorland opens out. There is a bit of a kick in the road surface and it does feel as though you are close to take off, quite unnerving the first couple of times!


Pat "5mph" said:


> @daisyj I am terrified of descending too, and that's on hybrids, as my road bike has been a wall ornament since I bought it, as I'm terrified of it on the flat
> For some strange reason, rim brakes give me more confidence, I feel I can control the bike better.
> I do the "feathering" thing, but after reading @Yellow Saddle's post I'm going to start using only my front brake downhill, maybe it will feel better.
> Question:
> what do you do if riding a steep downhill and needing to turn right in the middle of it, but also maybe you need to stop for incoming traffic, and of course signal right?


I can vouch for Pat's hopeless downhill skills having witnessed her get off the bike and walk down quite short depressions in the trail 
The point about braking while wanting to signal a right turn on a downhill stretch is easily answered. Signal when starting the manoeuvre and then let your road position tell people what you are doing. Don't turn right from the gutter, be out at the centre line.


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## Yellow Saddle (2 May 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @daisyj I am terrified of descending too, and that's on hybrids, as my road bike has been a wall ornament since I bought it, as I'm terrified of it on the flat
> For some strange reason, rim brakes give me more confidence, I feel I can control the bike better.
> I do the "feathering" thing, but after reading @Yellow Saddle's post I'm going to start using only my front brake downhill, maybe it will feel better.
> Question:
> what do you do if riding a steep downhill and needing to turn right in the middle of it, but also maybe you need to stop for incoming traffic, and of course signal right?



That's where exceptions come in. Of course then you would use both brakes. Note that I'm talking about absolute maximum braking. That's when front-only is safest. However, when conditions are slippery, you would use both. I use my front 90% of the time, I'd say. I can see this from brake block wear. My rear blocks almost never need replacement. I'd say I replace 5 pairs front for each rear pair.

The trick is practice and conditioning. Practice on good surface first, then on poorer surfaces. This rule does not hold for gravel, which requires a totally different approach.


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## Pat "5mph" (2 May 2017)

I like Skol said:


> The point about braking while wanting to signal a right turn on a downhill stretch is easily answered. Signal when starting the manoeuvre and then let your road position tell people what you are doing. Don't turn right from the gutter, be out at the centre line.


But cycle training says you must signal until you're into the turn.
So you need to brake with your left, ie the back brake.


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## I like Skol (2 May 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> But cycle training says you must signal until you're into the turn.


I question the value of that cycle training! 
I teach my 11yr old to signal if there are following cars to see it, and once he has moved towards the centre of the road he should/must have both hands on the handlebars/brakes to ensure he has full control of the bike. If a following driver can't work out that a bicycle 1ft from the centreline and slowing down at the approach to a right turn is probably turning right then waving an arm isn't likely to make much difference.
Trouble is the little bugger keeps signaling right and doing the manoeuvre non-handed! I don't know where he learned that?


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## Pat "5mph" (2 May 2017)

@I like Skol we are going OT, but, what about the oncoming driver?
If they come round a bend, don't see you signaling?
Or the driver emerging from the junction you want into, thinks you're going straight?
Cycle training was right


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## Venod (2 May 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Descent to Woodhead ...



Made me shudder looking at it, I have posted before about my shimmy at 45mph coming down there.

A bad descending experience takes some getting over, on Friday after watching the TDY I followed a fellow club member down Garrowby Hill, he was a demon descender, but coming down the North side of Buttertubs he had a spectacular off, on Friday I had to overtake him, I was concerned my brakes were getting too warm.

I do use the back brake sparingly, but its a lifetime habit, Yellow Saddle offers some good advice.


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## I like Skol (2 May 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @I like Skol we are going OT, but, what about the oncoming driver?
> If they come round a bend, don't see you signaling?
> Or the driver emerging from the junction you want into, thinks you're going straight?
> Cycle training was right


Pat, maybe I am assuming all drivers have the experience and ability I credit myself with? My experience has taught me that, on the whole, I am capable of predicting what a fellow road user will do based on their road position or actions prior to their current position. Which ever direction I am approaching that junction from I would expect a slow moving cyclist in the middle of the road to be turning right. I would optimistically hope that all other drivers would reach the same conclusion......


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## Alan O (2 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Now, what is the frictional tax on the tyres if you corner at 2 and brake at 2 simultaneously? By frictional tax I mean the combined effect that has to be resisted by the tyres. Remember, the tyre can take 5 at most.


I'll have a go - is it a simple as 4?

Thinking that as long as the total "frictional tax" must be 5 or less, then any combination that adds up to 5 or less should be safe. So as long as you're at less than 5 on cornering, you have some left that you can use for braking.


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## ColinJ (2 May 2017)

I like Skol said:


> Pat, maybe *I am assuming all drivers have the experience and ability I credit myself with*? My experience has taught me that, on the whole, I am capable of predicting what a fellow road user will do based on their road position or actions prior to their current position. Which ever direction I am approaching that junction from I would expect a slow moving cyclist in the middle of the road to be turning right. I would optimistically hope that all other drivers would reach the same conclusion......


Unfortunately, that isn't a safe assumption to make - look at what happened to poor Michele Scarponi last week!



I like Skol said:


> I usually overtake cars when dropping off Holme Moss, especially on the twisty Holmfirth side!!!!


See above ... 

I admit that it is very tempting when you have an overcautious driver ahead of you though!

I once went to overtake a tractor on the descent from Pecket Well to Hebden Bridge and the farmer pulled out slightly just before I got level with him. The tractor had one of those big spikes used for picking up straw bales on the back and the farmer hadn't raised it to a safe position - I came worryingly close to impaling myself on it! 



I like Skol said:


> I have struggled to get much above 50 mph down there despite several attempts in seemingly ideal conditions. My current best bike does seem to be slightly faster again so it may be worth another attempt? The worst bit of that descent is up at the top before the moorland opens out. There is a bit of a kick in the road surface and it does feel as though you are close to take off, quite unnerving the first couple of times!


That's because you are a honed athlete, not benefiting from lard power! 

I really noticed the difference when chasing @nickyboy down to Woodhead a few years back. I had lost over 4 stone in weight and I couldn't get to over 50 mph either that time. I'm not saying that nickyboy was employing lard power, more, er, '_muscular build_' power!


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## I like Skol (2 May 2017)

Actually I assume nothing. Perhaps I should say I expect them to conform to the norm, but equally I distrust everyone!


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## daisyj (3 May 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @daisyj I am terrified of descending too, and that's on hybrids, as my road bike has been a wall ornament since I bought it, as I'm terrified of it on the flat
> For some strange reason, rim brakes give me more confidence, I feel I can control the bike better.
> I do the "feathering" thing, but after reading @Yellow Saddle's post I'm going to start using only my front brake downhill, maybe it will feel better.
> Question:
> what do you do if riding a steep downhill and needing to turn right in the middle of it, but also maybe you need to stop for incoming traffic, and of course signal right?


I feel reassured it's not just me! I've tweaked my route to try again at the weekend to avoid the worst descent - it was made worse by potholes, gravel and twigs so I couldn't pick a line to follow very easily. I'm going to try and improve my feathering first and if that doesn't help, try the front brake if I'm brave enough!

Road bikes are quite lovely to look at so you've got a great ornament until you get out on it!


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

Alan O said:


> I'll have a go - is it a simple as 4?
> 
> Thinking that as long as the total "frictional tax" must be 5 or less, then any combination that adds up to 5 or less should be safe. So as long as you're at less than 5 on cornering, you have some left that you can use for braking.



Ah, someone is paying attention. I was getting depressed there.

No, it isn't. I take it you are responding to the 2 and 2 scenario?

The answer is 2.82. I'll give you some time to chew on it. However, most people guess 4 and ride as if it is 4 even if they don't know the answer. This one isn't instinctive.


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## rich p (3 May 2017)

I had a front tyre blow out going down a steep twisty road (Ditchling Beacon) about a year ago, at 30 mph. Battered and bruised but no real damage but I still haven't got my confidence back.


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## nickyboy (3 May 2017)

ColinJ said:


> Unfortunately, that isn't a safe assumption to make - look at what happened to poor Michele Scarponi last week!
> 
> 
> See above ...
> ...



As you know @ColinJ the shape with greatest volume/surface area is a sphere and thus a sphere will descend more quickly than any other shape. Riders closer to the sphere shape will do likewise. I am that sphere

BTW, I don't think 100km/hr is really achievable on Holme Moss. I've done the descent with very favourable tailwind and _only_ managed 90. Certainly none of the Strava cyclists have managed to hit the ton

On subject of right turns down a steep hill (I have one near me), my tekker is to have a very obvious look behind before I do anything else. That usually lets a following car driver know I'm about to do something. Then a quick hand signal (it can't be a slow, leisurely one as I need my right hand for braking), then move out to right hand side of the lane. If something is coming the other way and stops me turning right then I just brake to a stop near the centre line, otherwise I'm banking it over and hoping Yellow Saddles 2+2 or whatever still applies


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## nickyboy (3 May 2017)

rich p said:


> I had a front tyre blow out going down a steep twisty road (Ditchling Beacon) about a year ago, at 30 mph. Battered and bruised but no real damage but I still haven't got my confidence back.



Front tyre blow outs are a total nightmare. I had one descending the Cat and Fiddle into Buxton (I ran over a huge bolt lying in the road). I was really lucky....I had just enough room to steer straight and bring it to a stop from high speed. If it had been on one of the many bends I would have been off. Like you, it affected my confidence descending for some time.


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## Katherine (3 May 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @daisyj I am terrified of descending too, and that's on hybrids, as my road bike has been a wall ornament since I bought it, as I'm terrified of it on the flat
> For some strange reason, rim brakes give me more confidence, I feel I can control the bike better.
> I do the "feathering" thing, but after reading @Yellow Saddle's post I'm going to start using only my front brake downhill, maybe it will feel better.
> Question:
> what do you do if riding a steep downhill and needing to turn right in the middle of it, but also maybe you need to stop for incoming traffic, and of course signal right?





Pat "5mph" said:


> But cycle training says you must signal until you're into the turn.
> So you need to brake with your left, ie the back brake.



Pat, I have to turn right on a steep downhill on one of my routes. I signal right whilst braking with my left hand and take the middle of the lane well before so that traffic behind me doesn't try to pass. Then I keep both hands on as I continue to descend, braking as much or little as necessary ready to then signal again as I approach the right turn and move over to the centre line. If there is no oncoming traffic, I'll take the turn with both hands on. If there's traffic coming, I'll stop and put my arm out again until I can go.


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

rich p said:


> I had a front tyre blow out going down a steep twisty road (Ditchling Beacon) about a year ago, at 30 mph. Battered and bruised but no real damage but I still haven't got my confidence back.



It's hard to get that confidence back. Very hard.

Do you know why the tyre blew? Were you braking hard or had been dragging the brake. Can you remember what the tyre was inflated to?


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## rich p (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> It's hard to get that confidence back. Very hard.
> 
> Do you know why the tyre blew? Were you braking hard or had been dragging the brake. Can you remember what the tyre was inflated to?


I never really found out for sure. The tyre was in good nick but afterwards there was a gash in the sidewall, close enough to have been caused by rubbing on the block over time. I didnt think that was likely but I don't entirely rule out schoolboy error for sure. I assumed I'd hit something previousy and hard front breaking caused the failure. I generally run my tyres at 100 psi.


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## Jody (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Ah, someone is paying attention. I was getting depressed there.
> 
> No, it isn't. I take it you are responding to the 2 and 2 scenario?
> 
> The answer is 2.82. I'll give you some time to chew on it. However, most people guess 4 and ride as if it is 4 even if they don't know the answer. This one isn't instinctive.



I'm glad someone else took a guess at 4. Would like to know how you get to 2.82.


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## I like Skol (3 May 2017)

Pythagoras.

EDIT: Actually Pythag and vectors of force.


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## Dogtrousers (3 May 2017)

rich p said:


> I never really found out for sure. The tyre was in good nick but afterwards there was a gash in the sidewall, close enough to have been caused by rubbing on the block over time. I didnt think that was likely but I don't entirely rule out schoolboy error for sure. I assumed I'd hit something previousy and hard front breaking caused the failure. I generally run my tyres at 100 psi.


I wouldn't have thought that your brakes would have time to overheat going down the Beacon would they? Not that I have any knowledge of brakes, but just to note that it's only about 1.5km long, and follows about 6k of gradual climb, and possibly a view-admiring stop at the top, where you won't have been braking at all.


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> I wouldn't have thought that your brakes would have time to overheat going down the Beacon would they? Not that I have any knowledge of brakes, but just to note that it's only about 1.5km long, and follows about 6k of gradual climb, and possibly a view-admiring stop at the top, where you won't have been braking at all.



1.5kms is plenty of distance to overheat brakes if used improperly. If you descend slowly, dragging the brakes, then they heat up without the benefit of air cooling and overcook. However, if you go faster, don't drag the brakes but only brake in short and sharp bursts, they cool down sufficiently and don't transfer the heat to the tyres. 

Tandem riders in particular fall foul of rear wheel blow-offs. They're extra heavy, extra scared and like to drag the rear brake. In fact, a drag brake was invented just for this purpose. It is usually a third brake which is located on the rear wheel. It is either a drum or disc and sometimes even activated with a friction shift lever so that it can be applied and left to drag until later - almost like a handbrake.


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## Dogtrousers (3 May 2017)

I remember my mate's dad giving us a lecture about not overheating the drum brake on his tandem before we took it out. This was in the 70s. We probably ignored his advice. I'm afraid all I can remember is that it was yellow and that having handlebars that wouldn't steer was seriously weird.


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

@I like Skol is correct.

The two forces don't just add up to a total. 

The resultant force is the hypotenuse on a right-hand triangle where the cornering force (centripetal force if you like) is the one right angle and the braking force the other. 

Therefore you have far more traction than you would guess and you can reasonably safely brake hard even in a corner. The trick is to judge how hard you are cornering. Keep in mind that maximum available cornering force on a bicycle on good road is when you lean out at 45 degrees and your cornering force is thus 1 g.
Maximum braking a bike can do without the rear wheel lifting is only about 0.4 to 0.6 g, depending on your body position at the time. Going downhill means your position is unfavourable thanks to the slope, so 0.4 g is about max.

I have no doubt that soon there will be some electronic gadget that does the mental calculation for us and takes the fun out of adrenaline.


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

rich p said:


> I never really found out for sure. The tyre was in good nick but afterwards there was a gash in the sidewall, close enough to have been caused by rubbing on the block over time. I didnt think that was likely but I don't entirely rule out schoolboy error for sure. I assumed I'd hit something previousy and hard front breaking caused the failure. I generally run my tyres at 100 psi.



It's always a good idea to keep data and photos of accidents for geeks like me. I now don't know if the tyre blew off from too much pressure or whether it burst from a weakened casing. 

A good tyre, inflated to about 90% (lots of variable factors play a role here) of its maximum pressure can blow off if the wheel gets very hot from braking. By very hot, I mean too hot to touch after you've come to a standstill. Manufacturers know this and obviously keep the max recommended pressure well below the theoretical maximum. 

A quick burst of braking heats the tyre far less than long slow dragging.


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## rich p (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> It's always a good idea to keep data and photos of accidents for geeks like me. I now don't know if the tyre blew off from too much pressure or whether it burst from a weakened casing.
> 
> A good tyre, inflated to about 90% (lots of variable factors play a role here) of its maximum pressure can blow off if the wheel gets very hot from braking. By very hot, I mean too hot to touch after you've come to a standstill. Manufacturers know this and obviously keep the max recommended pressure well below the theoretical maximum.
> 
> A quick burst of braking heats the tyre far less than long slow dragging.


I doubt it was overheating as I used to speed down the straights and only brake to kill speed prior to the corner, then accelerate out and it's all over in 2 minutes. It's a hill I've done a thousand times but now I'm like Bambi on ice which actually feels more dangerous but hard to overcome.
I'll never know but my best guess is the brake block minimally rubbing on the tyre over time, or a small split caused by hitting a stone or something previously.
A friend I was cycling with once had 3 blowouts due to a split in the wall that was so small it was very hard to spot. We were novices and I think I'd have worked it out sooner now.


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## Jody (3 May 2017)

Everyday is a school day with @Yellow Saddle


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## Venod (3 May 2017)

rich p said:


> I never really found out for sure. The tyre was in good nick but afterwards there was a gash in the sidewall, close enough to have been caused by rubbing on the block over time. I didnt think that was likely but I don't entirely rule out schoolboy error for sure. I assumed I'd hit something previousy and hard front breaking caused the failure. I generally run my tyres at 100 psi.



Could the gash in the sidewall have been caused by the rim after the tyre blew off, I say this because I was following a club mate down the North side of Holme Moss, a big lad so he was on the brakes, from the top, just before the 1st LH bend his front tyre blew off, he managed to stay upright but was very lucky there was no traffic as he drifted across the road round the bend, there was no damage to the tyre or tube, he put it on again and completed the ride without further incident.

The same bend was the scene of a spectacular crash on another ride, I had just come round the bend going up when a saw a rider coming down as he passed I thought he is going too fast, I heard a bang he missed the bend completely and ht the wall, his knee was a right mess (difficult to look at) an ambulance had to be called, his new Giant (second time out) was in 2 pieces, he was in shock I couldn't get him to sit down, I had fears he might collapse.


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## Kestevan (3 May 2017)

WRT braking and indicating right, surely the simple solution is to have your brake levers setup with the front on the left as per our friends in the continent.

Most of mine are like this; and an added benefit is that you can change to a lower sprocket more easily as you brake to a stop at junctions.


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## ColinJ (3 May 2017)

I suspect that some of our posts are not helping allay fears of descending! 

I am surprised that people have not occasionally been hitting 100 km/hr on Holme Moss. I have touched 90 going down the A58 from Blackstone Edge to Littleborough and the A646 in Burnley after the Manchester Rd traffic lights as the road plunges down towards Rose Grove. Neither of those descents feel as scary as Holme Moss. I suppose the extra 10 km/hr would be hard to gain though, especially because pedalling is not going to help at those speeds.


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

Kestevan said:


> WRT braking and indicating right, surely the simple solution is to have your brake levers setup with the front on the left as per our friends in the continent.
> 
> Most of mine are like this; and an added benefit is that you can change to a lower sprocket more easily as you brake to a stop at junctions.



I want my strongest, most dexterous hand controlling my most important brake.


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## Kestevan (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I want my strongest, most dexterous hand controlling my most important brake.


So do I


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## Alan O (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Ah, someone is paying attention. I was getting depressed there.
> 
> No, it isn't. I take it you are responding to the 2 and 2 scenario?
> 
> The answer is 2.82. I'll give you some time to chew on it. However, most people guess 4 and ride as if it is 4 even if they don't know the answer. This one isn't instinctive.


Well, I guessed it couldn't be that simple 

I do know that 2.82 is 2 times the square root of 2 - is that getting close?

Alan


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## Alan O (3 May 2017)

Alan O said:


> Well, I guessed it couldn't be that simple
> 
> I do know that 2.82 is 2 times the square root of 2 - is that getting close?
> 
> Alan


Ah, now, I deliberately made that guess without checking any other replies, but now I see the words "Pythagoras" and "vector" I do think I've got it, by jove!

Vector triangle, two equal sides of length 2, so hypotenuse is the square root of (2 squared plus 2 squared) = root 8 = 2.82.

Alan


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## mjr (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> 1.5kms is plenty of distance to overheat brakes if used improperly. If you descend slowly, dragging the brakes, then they heat up without the benefit of air cooling and overcook. However, if you go faster, don't drag the brakes but only brake in short and sharp bursts, they cool down sufficiently and don't transfer the heat to the tyres.


I've sometimes wondered about this and sorry if I asked this before: alloy dissipates heat faster than steel and rubber pads generate less friction than the old leather-and-worse ones, so why won't you melt modern pads long before heating alloy rims enough to pop a tyre?


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

mjr said:


> I've sometimes wondered about this and sorry if I asked this before: alloy dissipates heat faster than steel and rubber pads generate less friction than the old leather-and-worse ones, so why won't you melt modern pads long before heating alloy rims enough to pop a tyre?



Just to be clear:

I think you meant to ask about conduction rather than dissipation. Dissipate refers to how quickly it gets rid of the heat, typically by radiation and that would be dependent on the colour and texture and airflow, since heat dissipates by conduction and radiation and convection.

Also, you don't say what alloy but I assume you mean aluminium, because of the context. Steel, brass, pewter, 18K gold etc are all alloys. Some alloys have specific names like copper and zinc is called brass, iron and other metals and even carbon is called steel and lead and tin is called pewter. Aluminium alloy is simply called aluminium no matter what it is alloyed with.
The CoF of leather on metal is 0.4. I just looked it up on a table but can't figure out what metal. It does make a small difference.
The CoF of rubber on aluminium is about 0.6. This means that rubber brake blocks on aluminium rims work better than leather blocks on steel and hence, will generate more heat. Hence your question about melting.

That's because aluminium is such a good conductor of heat that it transfers the heat away from the place where the heat is manufactured. It is always created in the softest of the two materials and at the interface itself. The rubber is in close contact with the aluminium. Heat can't travel backwards through the rubber but readily travels forwards into the aluminium. Once there, it quickly transfers from the surface to the entire rim. The rim is mostly open to the air and the heat dissipates very quickly into the airstream and doesn't get a chance to heat up the tyres. If you exceed the rim's capacity to dissipate the heat, then the tyre will heat up - actually the whole rim and tyre will heat up.

If you use those same rubber pads on a Chrome-plated steel rim, you have a different scenario. The rim (especially chrome) doesn't conduct heat very well and the heat can't get away fast enough from the pad. The pad melts and you have lubrication, instead of friction at the pad interface and the brakes fail. This is what happens with carbon rims. Carbon composite is a very, very poor conductor of heat and the whole system goes belly up. That's why they use non-melt pads made from cork and wood shavings. They just smoke instead of melt. Yet, the braking is still poor.

In the example above, where the bike descends slowly, the airstream doesn't cool the rims enough and they overheat.

Sorry, CoF is Coefficient of Friction, a measure of the friction "strength".


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## mjr (3 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Aluminium alloy is simply called aluminium no matter what it is alloyed with.


And yet, we simply call it alloy when it's a bike wheel rim.



Yellow Saddle said:


> The CoF of leather on metal is 0.4. I just looked it up on a table but can't figure out what metal. It does make a small difference.


While we called pads like leather, they clearly weren't only leather.

I'm still not understanding why the better heat conduction of alloy/aluminium doesn't make it far less likely that you can heat the tyre up enough to harm it. While heat couldn't get away from a pad on steel quickly, the tyre is pretty much right next to the pad so don't we want it to conduct away?


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## Yellow Saddle (3 May 2017)

mjr said:


> And yet, we simply call it alloy when it's a bike wheel rim.



I don't think you'll find that definition in the dictionary. 



mjr said:


> I'm still not understanding why the better heat conduction of alloy/aluminium doesn't make it far less likely that you can heat the tyre up enough to harm it. While heat couldn't get away from a pad on steel quickly, the tyre is pretty much right next to the pad so don't we want it to conduct away?



Your initial question was a bit tricky, but this one is more direct.

If you have two stationary wheels - one with a steel rim and one with an aluminium rim and you apply the same heat source to the spoke side of the rim, then the aluminium-rimmed tyre will pop off before the steel rimmed one. That's because aluminium conducts the heat through to the tyre quicker.

But, if you are running the two bikes down a hill, you will certainly be dragging the steel rim bike's brakes all the way down (because the pads are melting) and the slower speed will create less airflow around the rim and it will heat up quicker than the aluminium one. The aluminium one is going faster because the brakes actually work and the rider is confident.


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## craigwend (3 May 2017)

ColinJ said:


> I suspect that some of our posts are not helping allay fears of descending!
> 
> I am surprised that people have not occasionally been hitting 100 km/hr on Holme Moss. I have touched 90 going down the A58 from Blackstone Edge to Littleborough and the A646 in Burnley after the Manchester Rd traffic lights as the road plunges down towards Rose Grove. Neither of those descents feel as scary as Holme Moss. I suppose the extra 10 km/hr would be hard to gain though, especially because pedalling is not going to help at those speeds.



Yep it's all gone a little of piste ... obviously not braking 'correctly' whilst descending Col de Pythagoras & Mont Verbatim


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## Alan O (3 May 2017)

craigwend said:


> Yep it's all gone a little of piste ... obviously not braking 'correctly' whilst descending Col de Pythagoras & Mont Verbatim


Actually, yes, I've just been out on a short ride and I thought I'd try out the theory on a downhill bend - but I couldn't work the slide rule without falling off.


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## Pat "5mph" (3 May 2017)

Katherine said:


> Pat, I have to turn right on a steep downhill on one of my routes. I signal right whilst braking with my left hand and take the middle of the lane well before so that traffic behind me doesn't try to pass. Then I keep both hands on as I continue to descend, braking as much or little as necessary ready to then signal again as I approach the right turn and move over to the centre line. If there is no oncoming traffic, I'll take the turn with both hands on. If there's traffic coming, I'll stop and put my arm out again until I can go.


That's what I do too.
Not very often, mind, as I avoid routes like that if I can help it


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## DaveReading (4 May 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> when you lean out at 45 degrees and your cornering force is thus 1 g.



Strictly speaking, 1 g is your acceleration, centripetal in this case, or linear as in your braking example below.



> Maximum braking a bike can do without the rear wheel lifting is only about 0.4 to 0.6 g, depending on your body position at the time.



To calculate force, you would have to introduce mass into the equation.


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## Yellow Saddle (4 May 2017)

DaveReading said:


> Strictly speaking, 1 g is your acceleration, centripetal in this case, or linear as in your braking example below.
> 
> To calculate force, you would have to introduce mass into the equation.



Yes I know, but using "strictly speaking" terms in this scenario would negate another chunk of the audience.


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