# Self Illumination?



## Jezston (11 Nov 2010)

A thought occured to me as I was on my way home last night, after encountering the surreal sight of two small bright lights seemingly floating in the air, bobbing about coming towards me on the other side of the road which turned out to be a black-clad cyclist with no reflectives with a light on his handlebars and one on his helmet.

Howabouts having a small light on the handlebars pointing TOWARDS yourself, so other road users can see what you are?

I often find having bright lights seem to suck in the light around them, often making people using them _harder_ to see than easier.

Thoughts?


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## upsidedown (11 Nov 2010)

I find that using very bright front lights makes drivers wait before pulling out, presumably they think it's a motorbike. Think i prefer it that way to removing any doubt.


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## fimm (11 Nov 2010)

You don't want it to be obvious what you are. You want the driver to think "What on earth is _that_?" rather than "oh, its just a cyclist, I can cut them up". 
IMHO of course.


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## siadwell (11 Nov 2010)

Someone else got there first: http://www.lightrider.co.uk/


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## Flying Dodo (11 Nov 2010)

Not so sure that Light Rider idea is such a good one, as it would affect your night vision having it shining towards your chest.

I'd agree cyclists with a handlebar light and a helmet light are very visible due to the WTF effect of seeing 2 vertical lights.

I've probably mentioned this before, but several years ago at night I spotted a recumbent going the other way, who was extremely visible, as he had a white LED fitted to the top of his flag pointing down onto his head and shoulders, which really made him stand out. 

Good job he wasn't bald though, as otherwise I'd have been blinded by the reflection.


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## mr_cellophane (11 Nov 2010)

siadwell said:


> Someone else got there first: http://www.lightrider.co.uk/



Marshalls at the 2008 London SkyRide were given them as a thank you.  I never used mine as the forward facing light was rubbish.


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## gaz (11 Nov 2010)

I've seen a guy on my commuting route that has a light facing him to do just this.


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## Ravenbait (11 Nov 2010)

fimm said:


> You don't want it to be obvious what you are. You want the driver to think "What on earth is _that_?" rather than "oh, its just a cyclist, I can cut them up".
> IMHO of course.



I agree absolutely. I like the fact that my lumicycles are so bright I am mistaken for a tractor on unlit rural roads -- I've had drivers pull over into laybys and wait for me to go past  .

Sam


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## jimboalee (11 Nov 2010)

I've seen a guy with a 'down flood' on the front of his helmet to illuminate his computer and gear changers ( the ones with numbers behind little windows ).

It was a WIDE angle and lit up his sleeves which were red, and his nose which was also red.


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## wesa (11 Nov 2010)

I was thinking about this the other day. My plan is to mount a light on my rack and have it shining at my back. My concern is that if I use a decent light (Magicshine) then might create some strange 'aura' lighting effect from the front. Perhaps I need to experiment with some of the old lights that I never seem to throw out

I had planned to try it out earlier in the week but I never got round to it, I'll try tonight (as long as the wind hasn't blown the garage roof off)

My 2 cents: I want the driver to realise I am a cyclist, perhaps after a bit of a delay and some use of the brakes, but I don't want them overtaking me being distracted from the task in hand. I don't have many junctions on my commute so I am more worried about being seen from the back. If someone mistakes two ~900 Lumen lights (above each other) and a backup for a tractor, car, motorbike, plane, UFO then so be it.


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## As Easy As Riding A Bike (11 Nov 2010)

fimm said:


> You don't want it to be obvious what you are. You want the driver to think "What on earth is _that_?" rather than "oh, its just a cyclist, I can cut them up".
> IMHO of course.



I have noticed this effect over the last week with my new Exposure light. It's the brightest I've ever had. Putting it on full beam you can see people start to pull out of side roads, and then stop as they seem to try and work out what it is that's coming.


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## DrSquirrel (11 Nov 2010)

Jezston said:


> A thought occured to me as I was on my way home last night, after encountering the surreal sight of two small bright lights seemingly floating in the air, bobbing about coming towards me on the other side of the road which turned out to be a black-clad cyclist with no reflectives with a light on his handlebars and one on his helmet.
> 
> Howabouts having a small light on the handlebars pointing TOWARDS yourself, so other road users can see what you are?
> 
> ...



You'd generally have the car lighting you up, specially with HV.

But, I'd agree... HV top on with a light on the rear of your rack pointing towards you should give you quite good visibility.

Putting one in front of you towards you isn't going to work, as it will blind you.


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## wesa (11 Nov 2010)

I just discussed my earlier post, and the whole idea of self illumination, with some colleagues. I was after thoughts from non-cyclists and cyclists on the topic, the feedback from all was that this is worth further investigation.

What did cause some laughs was the likley glow of my high-vis jacket when viewed from the front. Now consider that I work very near to the Diamond Light Source http://www.diamond.ac.uk/. What sort of responce would I receive if I am seen 'glowing' as I cycle away from the site. I think I will be given more room than ever before.

I have to give this a go!


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## Jezston (11 Nov 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> Putting one in front of you towards you isn't going to work, as it will blind you.



Not as long as it's not pointed into your eyes. That three-way light shown in an earlier post may be good for that.


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## Jezston (11 Nov 2010)

[QUOTE 1242021"]
The headlights of a car in a side road won't illuminate an approaching cyclist.
[/quote]

Neither, as I experienced last night, do the lights from a vehicle coming towards the cyclist on the other side of a wide road. 

Not good if they then decide to turn across that ... reflection from the moon on a puddle or ... someone's window or whatever that light is.


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## jonny jeez (11 Nov 2010)

Jezston said:


> A thought occured to me as I was on my way home last night, after encountering the surreal sight of two small bright lights seemingly floating in the air, bobbing about coming towards me on the other side of the road which turned out to be a black-clad cyclist with no reflectives with a light on his handlebars and one on his helmet.
> 
> Howabouts having a small light on the handlebars pointing TOWARDS yourself, so other road users can see what you are?
> 
> ...



Spooky, I had the exact same thought about a week ago and was sitting in traffic on my bike wondering if helmets could be designed with LED down lighters just to illuminate the torso of a rider. I find seeing the shape of a rider more helpful than just a light.

But, theres a downside...In the same way that Bent mikey likes to wobble to make drivers steer clear, an "odd" light also makes drivers wary. If i was illuminated too well could drivers choose to cut it close, confident that they can see that they didn't actually hit me I wonder?



But I agree, iluminated riders really do stand out, where as bike lights tend to get lost in the light confusion


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## BentMikey (11 Nov 2010)

I don't think you want to look too much like a cyclist at night, but more like a big scary dangerous thing that might make big dents in drivers' cars. That's what'll keep them away from you, not lighting yourself up like a muppet puppet.


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## gaz (11 Nov 2010)

jonny jeez said:


> But I agree, iluminated riders really do stand out, where as bike lights tend to get lost in the light confusion



That depends on the light. If you just use a set of knog lights then you are done for, if you are using some of the high power LED's that some of us are starting to use (see below) then you will stand out from cars.


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## Cubist (11 Nov 2010)

I suggested this about 12 months ago. Use a Micro-led taped to the top tube or stem. If you angle it right it'll illuminate the hi-viz details on your clothing. Set it to strobe and drivers will double take, thus making sure you've been seen. If you don't point it into your face, you won't be blinded by it. If you are teh sort of person who would angle into your face, should you really be riding a bike on your own????


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## Arch (11 Nov 2010)

wesa said:


> I just discussed my earlier post, and the whole idea of self illumination, with some colleagues. I was after thoughts from non-cyclists and cyclists on the topic, the feedback from all was that this is worth further investigation.
> 
> What did cause some laughs was the likley glow of my high-vis jacket when viewed from the front. Now consider that I work very near to the Diamond Light Source http://www.diamond.ac.uk/. What sort of responce would I receive if I am seen 'glowing' as I cycle away from the site. I think I will be given more room than ever before.
> 
> I have to give this a go!



What you want is something that illuminates you with a glow, but pulses, slowly, preferably to the accompaniament of a low pulsing hum, like the background noise in 2001....


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## DrSquirrel (11 Nov 2010)

Jezston said:


> Not as long as it's not pointed into your eyes. That three-way light shown in an earlier post may be good for that.



It's harder than you think.

I have some "button cell" lights that have a clear casing, even when pointing forwards its rather blinding (so have to mount them underneath).


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## brokenbetty (11 Nov 2010)

I saw a bloke just before Christmas last year who'd wrapped battery powered fairy lights round his bike and helmet. That worked incredibly well in making him visible. I'm considering doing the same myself, like a Winter version of fake flowers round the basket.

(He also had a small model christmas tree glued to his rear mudguard but that didn't really add much to the visibility.)


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## Bman (11 Nov 2010)

It seems like a good idea. My new commute utilises more dark unlit stretches of road than before. I want to upgrade my front illumination a bit before the snow/ice sets in. 

That said, I still think I am quite visible. I have two rear facing lights (one strobe, one constant) and three front facing (all constant, two LED, 1 Xenon) and I wear Hi-Vis. I often get the cars waiting to pull out of side roads, wait for ages as I approach, even though they have plenty of time to clear the junction. 

The other concern with these "illuminating the rider" type lights, is you also need to make sure you dont have white lights visible from behind or reds from the front. Im sure that could provoke some strange reactions from drivers. I dont think anyone's mentioned that yet.


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## atbman (11 Nov 2010)

I used one of those little, single led lights tied to the zip on my jacket. Dangling down, it provided enough light and reflected off the reflective strip on my hi-viz waistcoat quite effectively


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## buggi (11 Nov 2010)

Try eating Readybrek. Apparently it gives you an orange glow


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## Flying Dodo (11 Nov 2010)

One of the most effective ways to light yourself up from the rear is to have a Dinotte pointing downwards onto the road. Those things are dangerous to be behind if you look straight at the light, but if they're pointed downwards, it produces an amazing red glow on the road.


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## ufkacbln (11 Nov 2010)

upsidedown said:


> I find that using very bright front lights makes drivers wait before pulling out, presumably they think it's a motorbike. Think i prefer it that way to removing any doubt.



Doesn't work in Portsmouth

I was told by a Taxi driver who pulled out in front of me at point blank range that he had thought I was a motorbike, and as they have good brakes could have stopped quicker, the fact I almost hit him was because bicycles have poorer brakes.

Not of course that pulling out in front of either is a stupid move!


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## automatic_jon (11 Nov 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> Doesn't work in Portsmouth
> 
> I was told by a Taxi driver who pulled out in front of me at point blank range that he had thought I was a motorbike, and as they have good brakes could have stopped quicker, the fact I almost hit him was because bicycles have poorer brakes.
> 
> Not of course that pulling out in front of either is a stupid move!



Aqua cars? It's always bloody aqua cars.


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## jonny jeez (12 Nov 2010)

gaz said:


> That depends on the light. If you just use a set of knog lights then you are done for, if you are using some of the high power LED's that some of us are starting to use (see below) then you will stand out from cars.



Putting on my "driver" hat, I can say with confidence, that even the brightest lights are very often confusing to decipher. When a cyclist is riding towards you, with a car behind (them (often with its own high intensity led/zenons) the bike light gets totally lost in the surrounding "Halo". it makes it harder to figure out how far away the bike is (in relation to its following car). None of this is an excuse, Car drivers just need to understand this and take their time to work out what the lights are....problem is, they just dont.

I'd like to see how "self illumination" works in this particular application (whether it also gets lost in the halo of confusion)

In addition, on a dark unlit (or poorly lit road) a bike light is also sometimes hard to work out, I saw a chap on an MTB with two fronts and a helmet light and I honestly (despite having almost identical set up) was confused as to what he was, I mistook him for a work lamp on the traffic island that he was straddling as his main light seemed too "high up" to be a bike. I was shocked that it took me so long to work out he was a cyclist.

If *he* was self illuminated I know for sure I wouldn’t have been confused.

On this subject, I wonder if consistency is the key and if all bike lights were legally set to a standard height (like cars) and a standard (not common) colour ,,,maybe a coloured tint, would it make it easier to identify a bike at a glance?


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## Jezston (12 Nov 2010)

brokenbetty said:


> I saw a bloke just before Christmas last year who'd wrapped battery powered fairy lights round his bike and helmet. That worked incredibly well in making him visible. I'm considering doing the same myself, like a Winter version of fake flowers round the basket.
> 
> (He also had a small model christmas tree glued to his rear mudguard but that didn't really add much to the visibility.)




I am planning of doing just that this year! I also plan to get a big santa hat that can fit over a helmet.

As well as making me more visible, I think that providing some mild amusement to other road users I'm less likely to attract aggression


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## Midnight (12 Nov 2010)

Jezston said:


> I am planning of doing just that this year! I also plan to get a big santa hat that can fit over a helmet.
> 
> As well as making me more visible, I think that providing some mild amusement to other road users I'm less likely to attract aggression



Something like these? Flashing Hats They also sell some rather fetching Flashing dreadlocks that I think'd suit you Jez


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## Jezston (12 Nov 2010)

I went through a 'crustie' phase in my teens. Never again.


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## Number14 (12 Nov 2010)

Ay-Up lights are great for self illumination.

Mount on the rear rack and put the red cap on one light, turn the other light right round and point it at your back. You now have a big flashing rear light.

Of course it helps if you can get it to light your back instead of your ar$e like I manage each evening


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## davefb (13 Nov 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> Doesn't work in Portsmouth
> 
> I was told by a Taxi driver who pulled out in front of me at point blank range that he had thought I was a motorbike, and as they have good brakes could have stopped quicker, the fact I almost hit him was because bicycles have poorer brakes.
> 
> Not of course that pulling out in front of either is a stupid move!



the amount of drivers who work out 'can he stop' instead of 'will he have to slow down' beggers belief... and its getting more and more.


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## killiekosmos (13 Nov 2010)

atbman said:


> I used one of those little, single led lights tied to the zip on my jacket. Dangling down, it provided enough light and reflected off the reflective strip on my hi-viz waistcoat quite effectively



+1 I have a constant front light and attach a flashing yellow LED to my Hi-vis jacket at front. Rear has contant LEd and flashing LED and rear wheel has a spoke light - not too good for wheel balance but very visible side on as it looks like a red disc.


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## Rhythm Thief (13 Nov 2010)

Just get a hi vis vest. There's no need to start arsing about pointing lights at yourself from all points of the compass.


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## Jezston (13 Nov 2010)

Hi vis vests don't create their own light, RT. They are still invisible if there is no light pointing at them, and even less so if the user has very bright forward facing lights on their bike.


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## Rhythm Thief (13 Nov 2010)

Jezston said:


> Hi vis vests don't create their own light, RT. They are still invisible if there is no light pointing at them, and even less so if the user has very bright forward facing lights on their bike.



No, I know that. But they do make a massive difference to your visibility from the point of view of a driver coming towards you. They can also pick up light from other sources which is then reflected to the eyes of a driver waiting to pull out, say. In my experience, after good lights a hi vis vest is the single best thing a cyclist can do to help themselves get noticed.


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## gaz (13 Nov 2010)

jonny jeez said:


> Putting on my "driver" hat, I can say with confidence, that even the brightest lights are very often confusing to decipher. When a cyclist is riding towards you, with a car behind (them (often with its own high intensity led/zenons) the bike light gets totally lost in the surrounding "Halo". it makes it harder to figure out how far away the bike is (in relation to its following car). None of this is an excuse, Car drivers just need to understand this and take their time to work out what the lights are....problem is, they just dont.
> 
> I'd like to see how "self illumination" works in this particular application (whether it also gets lost in the halo of confusion)
> 
> ...



A question is, do we want to look like a cyclist?

Whilst i will agree that bike lights can get lost amongst car lights. With a high power light at a different level, it becomes harder for it to get lost.


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2010)

Proper lights is the way forward.


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## Rhythm Thief (13 Nov 2010)

BentMikey said:


> Proper lights is the way forward.



Indeed. One flashing, one constant at each end of your bike.


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## gaz (13 Nov 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Indeed. One flashing, one constant at each end of your bike*, minimum*.



FTFY


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2010)

That's a bit of a proscriptive imagination. You don't need a setup like that, a quite different one will work very well too.


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## Rhythm Thief (13 Nov 2010)

Very possibly. But that's what I use and it works for me; it's also the most easily noticed setup from behind the wheel, in my experience.


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2010)

My taillight happens to be ~6W LED, or roughly equivalent to 20W of halogen. You'll have to try extremely hard not to see it no matter whether it flashes or not.


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## Rhythm Thief (13 Nov 2010)

BentMikey said:


> My taillight happens to be ~6W LED, or roughly equivalent to 20W of halogen. You'll have to try extremely hard not to see it no matter whether it flashes or not.



BM, I'm sure your lights are the finest that money can buy. I wasn't having a go at your personal setup, merely indicating what is probably the best setup for those who are buying some lights from their LBS without an inclination to spend hundreds of pounds on a set. 
... although there's more to good lights than simply being bright. A bright constant light in heavy traffic looks much like all the other bright constant lights on the backs of cars. Especially when you factor brake lights into the equation. Flashing LEDs are not used by any other vehicle and make cyclists stand out much more than constant lights. But - in my view - you need both; flashers on their own are not much good.


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## BentMikey (13 Nov 2010)

Perhaps it's not a good thing to assume it's advantageous to look like a cyclist. That same argument goes against the self-illumination route.

No, I didn't think you were having a go, I just think there are many lighting options, and yours is not necessarily the optimal configuration.


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## ufkacbln (13 Nov 2010)

The problem with lighting the cyclist is that it can afect night vision.

I have a faired recumbent and if I have the lights inside the fairing, I see far less detail than if I mount them outside.


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## jonny jeez (18 Nov 2010)

Tried my ride home last night with one of my El cat eyes rotated (hanging) under my bars and illuminating my jacket (chest).

My observations.
1. No peds stepped out on me...chance?

2. No cyclist's or motorbikes cut across me (after a lifesaver, something that happens a lot in the dark)..chance again?

3. At least 5 other riders took a good look (probably nearer 10 but I could put at least a few down to my dashing good looks!)

4. The El failed to really spread the light and created a big yellow "spot" on my chest, I'd prefer a "Chap shaped " spot that reminded drivers that i'm a person.

5. Night vision was totally uneffected, even in the darkest parts of Hyde park, car lights are far more effective at ruining my night vision (in practice). But, on a totally unlit country road, I could well feel different

6. One driver pulled out on me (or tried to, untill I shouted at him) despite seeing me clearly (eye to eye) and with me doing my best xmas tree impression.

7 last point, it was cold last night, and a bit wet at the start, the light glowing on my chest actuually made me *feel* less exposed and a little bit warmer.

Conclusion, I'm looking at a cheap wide beam torch that will light up a greater area, I'll try anything if it might make me more visible.


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## cygnet (19 Nov 2010)

When I've needed to see my bars (computer/route sheet) in the dark I sometimes clip a cheap LED to my jersey. An 'invisible' gilet worn over the top diffuses it quite well to a sort of ET glow rather than a spot.

I haven't noticed if it made any difference to other traffic behavior though.


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## jonny jeez (19 Nov 2010)

cygnet said:


> When I've needed to see my bars (computer/route sheet) in the dark I sometimes clip a cheap LED to my jersey. An 'invisible' gilet worn over the top diffuses it quite well to a sort of ET glow rather than a spot.
> 
> I haven't noticed if it made any difference to other traffic behavior though.




bet it made it easier to ...go home...though?


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## fossyant (19 Nov 2010)

jonny jeez said:


> Tried my ride home last night with one of my El cat eyes rotated (hanging) under my bars and illuminating my jacket (chest).
> 3. At least 5 other riders took a good look (probably nearer 10 but I could put at least a few down to my dashing good looks!)



An thought....WTF has he got his light pointed the wrong way ? Who is this ugly mug ?


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## Davidc (19 Nov 2010)

During the summer I saw a cyclist wearing a Keith Moon style skeleton suit, matt black with the bones in reflective material. He was out on unlit roads on Exmoor, and I was in the car. His bike lights were pathetic but the suit certainly showed up and looked crazy! No one could have missed seeing him.


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## brokenbetty (19 Nov 2010)

I've just bought a pink reflective waistcoat with flashing LEDs (it's intended for small girls riding ponies  )

I had more hassle from drivers today than ever before! Probably coincidence, I'll see if it's the same tonight


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## ufkacbln (19 Nov 2010)

Davidc said:


> During the summer I saw a cyclist wearing a Keith Moon style skeleton suit, matt black with the bones in reflective material. He was out on unlit roads on Exmoor, and I was in the car. His bike lights were pathetic but the suit certainly showed up and looked crazy! No one could have missed seeing him.



Foska Bones!


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## Zippy (19 Nov 2010)

I nearly tossed a cyclist over the bonnet of my car recently on a night journey home - no lights, dark clothing, no reflector - at the last moment I saw two tiny spots of yellow going up and down - one up one down and vice versa - I immediately recognised these as his pedal reflectors! had he just been wearing a reflector vest it would have been the difference between life and death had i not been cycle aware.

In the paralell universe in which my fantasy self lives, cars are limited to 40mph and all roads are well lit so cars don't need headlights. the only vehicles with lights are cycles and everyone is nice to cyclists - in fact hardly anyone drives a car these days and those who do not or cannot cycle catch buses where everyone is friendly and they also wash every day.

And yes - that Fursty Ferret is good stuff!


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## gaz (20 Nov 2010)

Zippy said:


> they also wash every day.



Your asking for a bit too much there


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## Davidc (21 Nov 2010)

Zippy said:


> buses where everyone is friendly



That really sets it aside as a fantasy


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## Amoeba (27 Dec 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Just get a hi vis vest. There's no need to start arsing about pointing lights at yourself from all points of the compass.



RT, Hi Viz doesn't work at night, because fluorescent colours (typically) absorb UV present in daylight, and this light is re-emitted as visible light. At night there's very little or no UV around and the average headlight doesn't emit UV. So there's effectively no fluorescence. So Hi-Viz at night doesn't really help.

Retroreflective tape is good, especially if it's low down, where dipped headlights will illuminate it. But reflectors rely upon other vehicles using lights and not everyone does. 
It's always best not to rely upon someone else doing the right thing, because sometimes they don't. So RVLR compliant bright lights and reflectors are required on the bicycle.

UV LEDs are available, so it would seem possible to self-illuminate a Hi-Viz tabard / jacket using one. Different UV LEDs vary in wavelength etc. So, some research would be needed to avoid potential eye damage and or unnecessary skin exposure.

Of course, the self-illumination lights could be run-off a dynamo. If they are supplied via a sensor controlled headlight, they could switch on automatically.


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## DrSquirrel (27 Dec 2010)

+1

It's the reflective tape on "HV" vests that is used for night time.

I notice that not a lot of High Visibility tops have a great amount of reflective panels on them... what you really want is something with nice big thick bands on it...







...and the reason why we don't get that on cycling gear is because its "ugly" imo, so they produce them with just little tabs here or there.

I only really wear HV stuff in bad weather - hence why only my jackets are of that colour.


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## gaz (27 Dec 2010)

The hi-viz that is sold as cycling products has very minimal reflective bands.


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## DrSquirrel (27 Dec 2010)

gaz said:


> The hi-viz that is sold as cycling products has very minimal reflective bands.



Not sure if you are telling me that, or saying in general - but it was the point I was making above


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## gaz (27 Dec 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> in general


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## Leaway2 (29 Dec 2010)

I have considered this, but perhaps illumination from the back. Most of my commute is unlit country road and therefore no light shining in my eyes is an advantage. My worry is that motorists cannot see me side on, when I am on unlit roundabouts. This was confirmed by the GF the other morning.


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## DrSquirrel (29 Dec 2010)

Leaway2 said:


> I have considered this, but perhaps illumination from the back. Most of my commute is unlit country road and therefore no light shining in my eyes is an advantage. My worry is that motorists cannot see me side on, when I am on unlit roundabouts. This was confirmed by the GF the other morning.



Maybe you need a light like this...
http://s5.thisnext.com/media/largest_dimension/CA1E615F.jpg

Or some orange glow wire around the frame...


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## Leaway2 (29 Dec 2010)

DrSquirrel said:


> Maybe you need a light like this...
> http://s5.thisnext.c...on/CA1E615F.jpg
> 
> 
> Does this allow me to RLJ? If so it may be worth investing in one :-)


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## Rhythm Thief (2 Jan 2011)

Amoeba said:


> RT, Hi Viz doesn't work at night, because fluorescent colours (typically) absorb UV present in daylight, and this light is re-emitted as visible light. At night there's very little or no UV around and the average headlight doesn't emit UV. So there's effectively no fluorescence. So Hi-Viz at night doesn't really help.
> 
> Retroreflective tape is good, especially if it's low down, where dipped headlights will illuminate it. But reflectors rely upon other vehicles using lights and not everyone does.
> It's always best not to rely upon someone else doing the right thing, because sometimes they don't. So RVLR compliant bright lights and reflectors are required on the bicycle.
> ...



By Hi viz, I mean a proper roadworker's tabard with two round the waist reflective bands and a reflective band over each shoulder. These are very visible indeed at night, even when you're waiting at give way lines and a cyclist wearing one comes along the main road. As long as someone's headlights are shining on the reflective strips, they help a cyclist's visibility enormously. I agree that fluorescent clothing is no use whatever at night, and I should also stress that "proper" hi viz is not a substitute for lights in any way. But after a good set of lights, a hi viz tabard is the single best thing you can do to make yourself more visible. And you really don't need to mess about pointing lights at it - other vehicles will do that for you.


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## Norm (2 Jan 2011)

Amoeba said:


> UV LEDs are available, so it would seem possible to self-illuminate a Hi-Viz tabard / jacket using one. Different UV LEDs vary in wavelength etc. So, some research would be needed to avoid potential eye damage and or unnecessary skin exposure.


Taking it back to the idea of self-illumination, any ideas whether the visibility of fluorescent clothing would at night would be improved if the bike was fitted with some sort of UV / blacklight? 

I know, I wouldn't use it myself but does anyone know if it would even work?

And, following RT's comment, it's ironic how you criticise the use of the phrase "hi viz". Hi viz doesn't only mean fluorescent.



Amoeba said:


> RT, Hi Viz doesn't work at night, because fluorescent colours (typically) absorb UV present in daylight, and this light is re-emitted as visible light. At night there's very little or no UV around and the average headlight doesn't emit UV. So there's effectively no fluorescence. So Hi-Viz at night doesn't really help.


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## HelenD123 (2 Jan 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Indeed. One flashing, one constant at each end of your bike.



Unless you're in the US and they think you're indicating! They use red indicator lights.


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## summerdays (3 Jan 2011)

We were heading home and mucking around in the snow when Mr Summerdays took this photo of me:









Rhythm Thief said:


> But after a good set of lights, a hi viz tabard is the single best thing you can do to make yourself more visible. And you really don't need to mess about pointing lights at it - other vehicles will do that for you.



Though I would have agreed with you yesterday but I read a report which whilst it did like the reflective vest - it actually thought that the reflective bit on the moving ankles and knees was actually better. 
The flaw in the report was that each different way of being seen was added to the previous level rather than tested separately.

So they tested it with
a rider in black
a rider in flouresent clothing
a rider in a hi-vis vest (and black clothing I think)
a rider in a hi-vis vest and relective stuff on the ankles and knees.

The looked at how early the motorist spotted the cyclist and also looked at motorists age... with the youngest doing best and the oldest being half as likely as the youngest at spotting the cyclist on their test circuit.

This test was done not using lights on the bike ... (because the report said that lots of cyclists rode without them!!!), so it is additional measures that you can take. 

It also concluded that cyclists and pedestrians (previous paper they had done), over estimated their visibility to motorist.


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## BentMikey (3 Jan 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> These are very visible indeed at night, even when you're waiting at give way lines and a cyclist wearing one comes along the main road.



Hiviz reflectives only work when lights point from in line with your own eyes towards the cyclist, and that's rarely the case when a cyclist is going along the main road, and drivers are waiting at side roads. Other peoples' lights also do nothing to illuminate the reflectives, unless inline with your own eyes.


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## buddha (3 Jan 2011)

summerdays said:


>



This reminds me of a similar thread (on the BR forum, I think, a few years ago). Where this chap was mentioned.


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## gaz (3 Jan 2011)

summerdays said:


> I read a report which whilst it did like the reflective vest - it actually thought that the reflective bit on the moving ankles and knees was actually better.



That would be this report titled Cyclist visibility at night : perceptions of visibility do not necessarily match reality


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## mr Mag00 (3 Jan 2011)

anyone seen tron legacy? i wanna look like them on my bike


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## Rhythm Thief (3 Jan 2011)

BentMikey said:


> Hiviz reflectives only work when lights point from in line with your own eyes towards the cyclist, and that's rarely the case when a cyclist is going along the main road, and drivers are waiting at side roads. Other peoples' lights also do nothing to illuminate the reflectives, unless inline with your own eyes.



Sorry BM - and I don't really want to get into a(nother) long drawn out debate with you on this - but that's not true. Other peiople's lights illuminate reflectives just as well as your own, and I've spotted any number of cyclists wearing a hi viz vest instead of lights purely because their reflective strips were picked up by the headlights of cars on the main road. I'm not arguing with you, just telling you.


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## summerdays (3 Jan 2011)

gaz said:


> That would be this report titled Cyclist visibility at night : perceptions of visibility do not necessarily match reality



Yes that's the one ... though I would like to repeat the test with slightly different tests ... such as the cyclist not being in the same place on the circuit and adding in lights too - since a fair number of us do have lights ... and even testing things like flashing and steady lights. In fact there are lots of variations which I would like to try.


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## Tynan (3 Jan 2011)

does anyone have a top they wear in the dark that is not both reflective and hiviz?


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## ufkacbln (3 Jan 2011)

Tynan said:


> does anyone have a top they wear in the dark that is not both reflective and hiviz?




Foska Bones!









Absolutely fantastic jacket!


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## ufkacbln (3 Jan 2011)

summerdays said:


> Yes that's the one ... though I would like to repeat the test with slightly different tests ... such as the cyclist not being in the same place on the circuit and adding in lights too - since a fair number of us do have lights ... and even testing things like flashing and steady lights. In fact there are lots of variations which I would like to try.



There was a guy who did similar research in the 70's and found that the most effective clothing was........ a fake Police Uniform!


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## BentMikey (4 Jan 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> Sorry BM - and I don't really want to get into a(nother) long drawn out debate with you on this - but that's not true. Other peiople's lights illuminate reflectives just as well as your own, and I've spotted any number of cyclists wearing a hi viz vest instead of lights purely because their reflective strips were picked up by the headlights of cars on the main road. I'm not arguing with you, just telling you.




I'm sorry, but you're mistaken here, and show a basic misunderstanding of how retro-reflectives work. They only return a strong reflection back along the path it came from, and this is why they aren't particularly visible except when illuminated by lights on the line between your eyes and the retro-reflector, pointing towards the retro-reflector. It's why they are effective with only weak lights pointing at them, but it's also why they are invisible to motorists at side roads. It's possible that motorists lights on the main road are sometimes close enough inline with your eyes to cause a decent return, but that's not very often even here in London.


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## BentMikey (4 Jan 2011)

Cunobelin said:


> There was a guy who did similar research in the 70's and found that the most effective clothing was........ a fake Police Uniform!



Exactly, you don't want to be seen as a a cyclist, but as something that poses risk to the motorist. A Policeman is one, posing as just another vehicle using proper super bright LEDs is another.


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## Jezston (4 Jan 2011)

BentMikey said:


> I'm sorry, but you're mistaken here, and show a basic misunderstanding of how retro-reflectives work. They only return a strong reflection back along the path it came from, and this is why they aren't particularly visible except when illuminated by lights on the line between your eyes and the retro-reflector, pointing towards the retro-reflector. It's why they are effective with only weak lights pointing at them, but it's also why they are invisible to motorists at side roads. It's possible that motorists lights on the main road are sometimes close enough inline with your eyes to cause a decent return, but that's not very often even here in London.



That isn't true, Mikey - light from car headlights whilst focused onto a fixed spot on the road is actually scattered albeit weakly over quite a wide area, and as you said you only need a little light for reflectives to catch it and jump out - which is why big road signs on the side of a motorway are easily and quite well illuminated with their reflective elements despite being above and to the left of the direction headlights face.


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## BentMikey (4 Jan 2011)

Jezston said:


> That isn't true, Mikey - light from car headlights whilst focused onto a fixed spot on the road is actually scattered albeit weakly over quite a wide area, and as you said you only need a little light for reflectives to catch it and jump out - which is why big road signs on the side of a motorway are easily and quite well illuminated with their reflective elements despite being above and to the left of the direction headlights face.



Sorry mate, but that's the same misunderstanding on your part. The light from your headlights is still reasonably inline with your own eyes and the highway signs. That's a far cry from the large difference in angle you get with a car waiting at a side road, which doesn't generate any light pointing towards the cyclist on the major road, and another car on the major road.


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## siadwell (4 Jan 2011)

From http://en.wikipedia..../Retroreflector:

"A *retroreflector* is a device or surface that reflects light back to its source with a minimum scattering of light."

"Retroreflectors are devices that operate by returning light back to the light source along the same light direction."

"The observation angle is the angle formed by the light beam and the driver's line of sight. Observation angle is a function of the distance between the headlights and the driver's eye, and the distance to the reflector. Traffic engineers use an observation angle of 0.2 degrees to simulate a reflector target about 800 feet in front of a passenger automobile. *As the observation angle increases, the reflector performance decreases*."

BUT, bearing in mind that Scotchlite, unlike hard reflectors, uses glass micro spheres:

"Corner reflectors are better at sending the light back to the source over long distances, while *spheres are better at sending the light to a receiver somewhat off-axis from the source*".

So whilst retroreflectors are much more efficient the closer the light source and observer, Scotchlite may pick up enough light from the envionment to reflect some of it to an observer. But I wouldn't stake my life on it.


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## gaz (5 Jan 2011)

Tynan said:


> does anyone have a top they wear in the dark that is not both reflective and hiviz?



Yes, all my tops have neither on them!

What bonus will reflective tape give me over my motorbike like lighting system. which includes side lights.


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Jan 2011)

You'd be surprised. BM will disagree with me on this, but a hi viz vest gives shape to the area behind your lights and helps prevent them from being mistaken for a distant motorbike, say. Or indeed any other bright lights, which are plentiful on most roads, especially in urban areas. Do any of your lights flash? People with only constant bright lights would be surprised at how easily they blend in with, for instance, a queue of traffic with brake lights on.


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## gaz (6 Jan 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> You'd be surprised. BM will disagree with me on this, but a hi viz vest gives shape to the area behind your lights and helps prevent them from being mistaken for a distant motorbike, say. Or indeed any other bright lights, which are plentiful on most roads, especially in urban areas. Do any of your lights flash? People with only constant bright lights would be surprised at how easily they blend in with, for instance, a queue of traffic with brake lights on.


I have 5 rear lights with 2 being constant and 3 flashing. One of the constant lights is on the rear of my helmet.
From the front I have 2 constant lights and one flashing. One of the flashing is on my helmet.

I think that the position of my lights along with the ones On my helmet, I get some shape that is lost from not wearing a Hiviz vest.

But who says that looking like a motorcycle is a bad thing? I don't always want to be categorised as a cyclist as I often go as fast as the moving vehicles in front of me.


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## Rhythm Thief (6 Jan 2011)

gaz said:


> But who says that looking like a motorcycle is a bad thing? I don't always want to be categorised as a cyclist as I often go as fast as the moving vehicles in front of me.



It's very much a bad thing if someone waiting to pull out of a side road or overtake mistakes your bike lights 20 yards away with those of a motorcycle considerably further away and pulls out thinking he's got plenty of room. It does happen ... Your flashing lights make it unlikely though, and the ones on your helmet, as you say, do the same job as a high viz tabard in this instance.


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## BentMikey (7 Jan 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> You'd be surprised. BM will disagree with me on this, but a hi viz vest gives shape to the area behind your lights and helps prevent them from being mistaken for a distant motorbike, say. Or indeed any other bright lights, which are plentiful on most roads, especially in urban areas. Do any of your lights flash? People with only constant bright lights would be surprised at how easily they blend in with, for instance, a queue of traffic with brake lights on.



I'll disagree, and with evidence. You can't see hiviz behind a decent light:





I accept that hiviz might be visible if you have poor quality lights, fair enough. I don't know how you can suggest that it'll let you differentiate between bicycle and motorbike, since some motorcyclists also wear hiviz. The things that actually let drivers differentiate between bicycle and motorcycle are quite different - they are light intensity for the most part, and then speed secondly. This is fairly obvious if you've ever ridden a bicycle with decent lights, as lots of drivers mistake you for a motorcycle and wait when they needn't.


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## BentMikey (7 Jan 2011)

Well, I went out to do a test last night, and it turns out that vehicles waiting at T-junctions on the minor road do not illuminate hiviz reflectives on the major road. Vehicles on the main road do not illuminate the hiviz reflectives either.

Here's hiviz, with no source of illumination, no vehicles, and no light by the camera:





Here the same, but with an Exposure Joystick pointing towards the hiviz:





And again with vehicles, including behind the camera, and no torch. There is no illumination of the hiviz vest:





And now with a vehicle at the T-junction, and still no illumination of the vest:





The camera pretty much matches what my eyes saw, and I never once saw the slightest sign of any retro-reflective return with multiple vehicles coming up to that T-junction. Brand new hiviz vest, btw.


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## snailracer (7 Jan 2011)

Retro-reflectives only work when the light source and viewer are at co-located. Which is why cars driving with foglights on & headlights off is one of my pet hates. I also hate buses and lorries - their headlights can be 5 feet or more below the driver's eye level - totally crap and unsafe design.


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## BentMikey (7 Jan 2011)

snailracer said:


> Retro-reflectives only work when the light source and viewer are at co-located. Which is why cars driving with foglights on & headlights off is one of my pet hates. I also hate buses and lorries - their headlights can be 5 feet or more below the driver's eye level - totally crap and unsafe design.



Well yes, that's much what I said further up the topic, but a couple of people don't seem to understand that retro-reflectives only return light parallel to the inbound path, with any return falling off very quickly within a few degrees off-axis.


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## Jezston (7 Jan 2011)

Sorry I thought what you meant earlier was that reflectives only work when headlights are pointed DIRECTLY at them, which is what I was refuting. Obviously pointed directly away from them won't catch any light either.

Having said all that, the light in the picture in your first post seems WAY too bright. It's much brighter than the headlights of the car next to it suggesting it would dazzle anyone coming towards you.


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## Jezston (7 Jan 2011)

I'm not sure I follow.


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## snailracer (7 Jan 2011)

Jezston said:


> That isn't true, Mikey - light from car headlights whilst focused onto a fixed spot on the road is actually scattered albeit weakly over quite a wide area, and as you said you only need a little light for reflectives to catch it and jump out - which is why big road signs on the side of a motorway are easily and quite well illuminated with their reflective elements despite being *above and to the left* of the direction headlights face.


Headlights are specifically designed to throw extra light above and to the left of the main spot. If they didn't, drivers really would miss more signs. If you drive a UK-spec car in Europe, you are expected to fit "beam-benders" that throw light above and _to the right_ of the main spot.

But the main point you still seem to be missing is that the car headlights and driver's eyes are fairly closely located - the illuminating and reflected rays are still roughly parallel (or, more correctly, anti-parallel) whether the reflective target is off to the side or straight on. Streetlights, other headlights (unless they're from cars directly behind yours) don't produce a strong reflection from reflectives.


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## snailracer (7 Jan 2011)

[QUOTE 1242110"]
The point of contention on this thread is that reflectives are pointless when you're on a main road and a driver is looking to pull out of a side road, on the basis that the angle of return is slim. That's reliant on the only light source on the road being the headlights of the driver in the side road. That's rarely the case, and *there are often light sources present that will return a beam back to the driver*.
[/quote]
Yes, but unless those beams are closely anti-parallel to a line drawn between the driver's eye and the reflective target, the target will appear no brighter than a flat white target.
In which case, a bright top would be more visible, because the total area of reflectives is usually pretty skimpy on most hiviz tops.


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## snailracer (7 Jan 2011)

[QUOTE 1242112"]
How close are you talking? As I've already said, the 3M reflectors on the spokes of my kids' bikes reflect light from lapposts back to me when I'm out walking with them. That's a greater angle than a car travelling in the opposite direction to the bike in the side road scenario.

The fact is that reflectives aren't pointless. There are some *scenarios* where they won't be effective of course, but there are plenty of others which makes wearing them worthwhile.
[/quote]
Reflectives that have wider acceptance angles are however less-visible than their narrow-angle equivalents when illuminated from narrow angles - the choice of acceptance angle is a compromise. A simple white top can be thought of as a reflective with a 180 degree acceptance angle.

The law specifies that a rear reflector (which is essentially a narrow-angle reflective) must be fitted to bikes because the illuminated-by-overtaking-cars-from-behind is a common scenario where the acceptance angle is narrow and the reflector therefore appears very bright. The law does not require a front reflector, because it's much less effective - there are fewer scenarios where a front reflector is brightly illuminated with a narrow acceptance angle.

UPDATE: In some of the jurisdictions I have lived (USA), the minimum legal lighting requirement for cycling at night are a rear reflector combined with a front light. In other words, the authorities there also didn't think reflectives were adequately visible from the front, although they were considered adequate for the rear.

PS I don't consider reflectives pointless, I think they're great, especially on the back of a jacket.


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## BentMikey (7 Jan 2011)

As snailracer says, there might be a lot of light sources around, but they are almost never in line with the driver's eyes and the cyclist, so you won't see the reflectives. See the image below with cars passing on the main road and behind the camera (although you'll have to take my word for that), street lights everywhere, etc. There is no return from the hiviz vest.

There were at least two cars behind the camera, driving towards us, when I took this photo. There's still no retro-reflective return, for obvious reasons once you understand how retro-reflectives work.






When you have decent lights, the hiviz becomes pointless. Useless in fact.


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## PpPete (7 Jan 2011)

BentMikey said:


> *When* you have decent lights, the hiviz becomes pointless. Useless in fact.



My experience, as a motorist, of coming up on cyclists from behind is that their retroreflectives often stand out brighter than their their pathetic little blinkies.
The trousers with two horizontal bands on each leg are especially effective IME.... right in line with headlights and moving up and down. 

OTH I nearly took out a ninja last night....no lights, no bike reflectors, no h-viz.....i was lucky he was wearing dark clothing....it made him blacker than the surroundings so I saw him just in time.


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## gaz (7 Jan 2011)

[QUOTE 1242116"]


When you understand how light works, you'll realise that this view is also incorrect. Unless your lights have a 360 degree beam around you.
[/quote]
I have two fibre flares, one on each seat stay pointing away from the bike. This means I have a light that is always visible at what ever angle you look at the bike.


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## ComedyPilot (7 Jan 2011)

In my very recent experience, having 2 very bright flashing LEDs on the front and a reflective dayglo jacket will not stop a silver Volvo V70 overtaking and coming straight at you. I even moved out to primary to make sure my lights moved 'across' their line of sight instead of staying in one place and being seemingly 'stationary'.

I am getting more militant in my opinion of drivers. They CAN see us, they just decide that THEY will drive at us anyway, and it's up to us to get out of their way.


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## PpPete (7 Jan 2011)

ComedyPilot said:


> In my very recent experience, having 2 very bright flashing LEDs on the front and a reflective dayglo jacket will not stop a silver Volvo V70 overtaking and coming straight at you. I even moved out to primary to make sure my lights moved 'across' there line of sight instead of staying in one place and being seemingly 'stationary'.
> 
> I am getting more militant in my opinion of drivers. They CAN see us, they just decide that THEY will drive at us anyway, and it's up to us to get out of their way.



probably says more about Volvo drivers than the way light reflects..... I'm safe, f*ck the rest of you.


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## snailracer (7 Jan 2011)

I looked up the viewing angle of 3M Scotchlite material: it is 0.2 degrees, which seems remarkably narrow to me

European specs seem to measure performance at viewing angles of around 1.5 degree and narrower.


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## gaz (7 Jan 2011)

[QUOTE 1242122"]




[/quote]

I like the look of these spoke reflectors, tempted to buy some tape.


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## BSRU (7 Jan 2011)

gaz said:


> I like the look of these spoke reflectors, tempted to buy some tape.



I think they are Sekuclips designed for bicycle spokes.
*
*


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## Norm (11 Jan 2011)

BentMikey said:


> When you have decent lights, the hiviz becomes pointless. Useless in fact.


I had three cyclists coming the other way at different times during my drive home this evening, all on unlit roads with 60mph limits. 

The first one had a helmet light as well as the light on his bars, but I could still easily see the reflectives he was wearing. His head light was mounted very high so there was a huge separation between that and the one on his bars, and the geography there (he was bottoming out on a hill) could have easily had me thinking it was two bikes some distance apart. However, the point for the purposes of this thread is that I could easily see the reflectives on his hi-viz jacket, even though he had two fairly powerful lights and they made it much easier to gauge his distance and speed than the lights alone. 

The second cyclist, with just a single fairly powerful front light, could have been a mile or a hundred yards away without the reflectives. His light was so bright that it was difficult to look at it but, because I could see the H-pattern above the light, it was very easy to identify it as a cyclist and to judge his distance 

The third cyclist just had the single front mounted light.

Wearing hi-viz and reflectives is a long way from pointless, even with decent lights. Maybe, from my experience with the second one, I'd even say that bright lights make decent reflectives even more important at night.


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## Shut Up Legs (12 Jan 2011)

Jezston said:


> I often find having bright lights seem to suck in the light around them, often making people using them _harder_ to see than easier.
> 
> Thoughts?



There's a perfectly good reason for that, mate!  See here: https://www.msu.edu/...hysics/dark.htm.

Oh, by the way, Happy New Year and all the best for 2011, everyone, as this is my first CycleChat post for the year. Hope the English Winter's not treating you too badly.

Regards,

--- Victor.


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## Jezston (12 Jan 2011)

victor said:


> There's a perfectly good reason for that, mate!  See here: https://www.msu.edu/...hysics/dark.htm.



Now, I'm no expert in physics but I'm not entirely convinced by that article!


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## summerdays (12 Jan 2011)

I've just cycled home from doing the school drop off looking like an angry bee... either I didn't switch off my son's light before putting it in my pocket or it switched itself back on... I walked with a friend for a bit and chatted to some policemen (who were going to tow the car I had seen on my way in blocking a road but someone else had obviously reported it already), and nobody commented on my rear view!!







I only noticed when I hung up my coat! I decided it probably would make motorists notice me....


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## gaz (12 Jan 2011)

Let's not forget that the point of this was to shine a light at your own Hiviz to make it more visible. And not how visible it is from peoples experience. We all cycle in different places with different lighting etc which will affect the performance of Hiviz.


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## Jezston (12 Jan 2011)

gaz said:


> Let's not forget that the point of this was to shine a light at your own Hiviz to make it more visible. And not how visible it is from peoples experience. We all cycle in different places with different lighting etc which will affect the performance of Hiviz.



Actually it was about shining a light on yourself so other road users can see you are a human being on a bicycle rather than a UFO.


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## BSRU (12 Jan 2011)

Jezston said:


> Actually it was about shining a light on yourself so other road users can see you are a human being on a bicycle rather than a UFO.



I think car drivers are less likely to pull out in front of a UFO than a bicycle, for fear of being anally probed.


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## gaz (12 Jan 2011)

Jezston said:


> Actually it was about shining a light on yourself so other road users can see you are a human being on a bicycle rather than a UFO.


I was close enough 
Is it working?


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