# Kinetics 8-speed SA fitting



## srw (28 May 2016)

Before....





In the box...








A good solid touring rim.





Putting the wheel in the frame. A snug fit, and I had to file down one of the tabbed washers to get it to fit - it had overflowed its mould slightly.





Later this afternoon - finish putting the shifter on, and then the finishing touches. I'm on an extended lunch break so that I can play for a wedding.


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## GrumpyGregry (28 May 2016)

So good, so far.


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## Flying Dodo (28 May 2016)

Looking good.

It seems a better chain tensioner is now being used. Which is nice.

Something I forgot to mention on the other thread is that you may find the folding pedal doesn't fold so easily.


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## Pale Rider (28 May 2016)

Looks like a big cog for a hub gear, and a small ring on the front, which suggests some effort is being made to reduce the lowest gear.

Hopefully the lowest will be low enough, and the hub will have enough range for a suitable top gear.


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## Melvil (28 May 2016)

Can I ask what it cost and what the lowest gear is? Not that I have even got my B yet but 8 gears looks tasty


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## bikegang (28 May 2016)

Very nice, more hills to climb now..........


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## srw (28 May 2016)

For those who haven't been following the saga in a different thread, it's this kit.
http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/folding-bikes/brompton/brompton-8-speed-kit/

Progress has been slow this afternoon. This isn't entirely due to the couple of pints I drank after the wedding - having a beer shop between the church and the house coupled with the sunny afternoon is quite tempting.





Discovering that the old 3-speed shifter appears to be riveted on is frustrating. As is realising you can't see any way of moving the brake levers.




Gear cable finally fixed - a right faff. Neither the Kinetics instructions nor the SA instructions explain properly that there's a "business" part of the gizmo that slides onto notches, which guides the cable around a pulley to the fixing point, and something akin to a lock-ring, which you need to get perfectly aligned before it spins freely. Add to that the gear cables supplied being too long (which was in the instructions), not being able to lay my hands on my cable snippers (I think I know where they are now) and not yet having found the neat hole that helps in locating the cable end into the hub gear and I spent far too long on this bit.





I'm also replacing the stock Brompton rack (which has broken) which this very fetching Titanium and carbon number. Which was supplied with no instructions at all.




But is actually quite easy, if rather fiddly, to fit.




I really do need to sort those handlebars out. Not being able to move the brake lever is a bit of a constraint.

I also need to use a different chain. I shouldn't have listened to Evans when they told me I needed a standard Brompton chain rather than the 7-speed chain I asked for. As a result I've got massive slippage. Other than that, and the fact that I need to remove the wires to the rear dynamo light, it's basically working. Of course having no transmission is a rather _unusual _version of "basically working".


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## srw (28 May 2016)

Pale Rider said:


> Looks like a big cog for a hub gear, and a small ring on the front, which suggests some effort is being made to reduce the lowest gear.
> 
> Hopefully the lowest will be low enough, and the hub will have enough range for a suitable top gear.





Melvil said:


> Can I ask what it cost and what the lowest gear is? Not that I have even got my B yet but 8 gears looks tasty


Bottom gear is direct drive - so 33/20 in the set up as delivered. Which is a wall-climber with a 16" wheel. @GrumpyGregry and I rode together from Southend seafront to the station on our respective Bromptons. He was sitting and tiwddling gently on the bottom gear of his 8-speed. I was standing, straining and stomping hard on the bottom gear of my 3-speed.


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## Pale Rider (28 May 2016)

srw said:


> Bottom gear is direct drive - so 33/20 in the set up as delivered. Which is a wall-climber with a 16" wheel. @GrumpyGregry and I rode together from Southend seafront to the station on our respective Bromptons. He was sitting and tiwddling gently on the bottom gear of his 8-speed. I was standing, straining and stomping hard on the bottom gear of my 3-speed.



I've never ridden a Brompton which has what I consider to be a low enough first gear.

The conversion sounds like it does.

Hope the remaining fettling goes well - you have more patience than me.


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## SavageHoutkop (28 May 2016)

I want to see that rack!


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## srw (28 May 2016)

SavageHoutkop said:


> I want to see that rack!


You really _don't_ want to know the price of the rack.... I got it through SJS, and I have to say that it is seriously good engineering.

[edit]
And although we've had a Torx spanner for a number of years, since we got a Rohloff-hubbed tandem, today was the first day I've had to use it in anger - the rack is supplied with Torx-headed bolts. One too few of the blasted things - there isn't one to attach the mudguard bracket, so that's bodged a bit.

More pictures tomorrow.


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## raleighnut (28 May 2016)

I can't really see the brake levers that well but going by the clamp that is visible there should be a clamp bolt but I bet you need to remove the brake cable to access it as it will be behind it (similar to how 'drop bar' levers attach)


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## srw (29 May 2016)

raleighnut said:


> I can't really see the brake levers that well but going by the clamp that is visible there should be a clamp bolt but I bet you need to remove the brake cable to access it as it will be behind it (similar to how 'drop bar' levers attach)


Yup - thanks. I'm an experimenter, and tend to leave things well alone if they're not broken, so I've never needed to investigate before.


SavageHoutkop said:


> I want to see that rack!







Very elegant. The only slightly bodged bit is the connection to the mudguard at the back. As I said I can't find a short enough bolt to fix the (darker grey) bracket to the round bit that moves freely on the rear strut.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

Something's not right there. The chain (sold by Evans: https://www.evanscycles.com/brompton-1-2-x-3-32-inch-102-link-chain-plated-00102985) is stamped SRAM PC-10. Kinetics recommend a "narrow single speed chain such as an SRAM PC-1 or a 7/8 speed derailleur chain"

Google time. And to find out whether I need a new BB to match the cranks - there's more daylight than I would have expected.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

User said:


> What size do you need?


A bolt to fit..

(Sorry - unhelpful, but accurate answer. No instructions with the kit.)


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## srw (29 May 2016)

I'm now officially confused. Professor google tells me that 7/8 speed chains are 3/32", and the PC-1 is 1/8". I think I can understand how a chain that's too narrow will ride awkwardly on the chain-wheel like that.


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## raleighnut (29 May 2016)

srw said:


> I'm now officially confused. Professor google tells me that 7/8 speed chains are 3/32", and the PC-1 is 1/8". I think I can understand how a chain that's too narrow will ride awkwardly on the chain-wheel like that.


PC-10 suggests it may be a 10 speed chain which is narrower than a 7-8 speed chain. I'd be tempted to put a SS spec ( I/8") on.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

raleighnut said:


> PC-10 suggests it may be a 10 speed chain which is narrower than a 7-8 speed chain. I'd be tempted to put a SS spec ( I/8") on.


The Brompton chain I bought (stamped SRAM PC-10) is Brompton branded on the packagin, with one of their extremely long code numbers.

I've fitted a 1/8" chain (SRAM PC-1), and it all works.





1/8" chain - OK




3/32" chain - not OK.

THe chain tensioner jockey wheels look as if they shouldn't work with a 1/8" chain, but actually do.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

Here are a couple more photos.
The folded package




The rack




The handlebar. It's a bit more squished than is comfortable, but there's plenty of room in the folded package, so I might find a different brake lever that will let me get the twist shifter further towards the centre. As well as needing to fix the rear mudguard properly I'm also planning to replace the grips, probably for something Ergony with bar ends.


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## cisamcgu (29 May 2016)

I was considering this myself, but with all the "bodges" and "fixes" that you have had to do, I think I will leave well enough alone and continue on my merry, 6-speeded, way.

Excellent thread though, many thanks for sharing


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## srw (29 May 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> I was considering this myself, but with all the "bodges" and "fixes" that you have had to do, I think I will leave well enough alone and continue on my merry, 6-speeded, way.
> 
> Excellent thread though, many thanks for sharing


To be fair to Ben, the bodges and fixes are more to do with my klutziness and the other stuff I'm doing at the same time as with the 8-speed conversion. Here's his instructions, with my comments. Based on the kit itself I'd recommend the adaptation. I'm going to go out on the bike this afternoon after which I'll report back again.

http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/uncategorized/brompton-8-spd-instructions/

Fitting the back wheel:

– Take off your old back wheel, and swap the tyre, tube and rim tape onto the new wheel.
– Take off the original tensioner, and all gear cables, including the pulley for the gear cable on the right side.
– Slide the new wheel into the dropouts – it should go with the cable guide pointing upwards – it can only go in one of two ways, so it should be obvious which way is right.
_@srw: I found it a bit more of a close fit than I'm used to with the three speed, but it was easy enough once I'd worked out that using gravity to help made life easier._
– Slide the two tabbed washers onto the axle, with the tabs going in to the slots in the dropouts. Important: use the new washers supplied with the kit, not the original ones from your old wheel. Fit a Sturmey nut on the left side, and the plain nut on the right, and tighten.
– Slide the chain tensioner on on the right, then fit the thin washer, and the other Sturmey nut. Only do this nut up hand-tight, you’ll want to take it off again when you fit the cable.
– Pump up the tyre.

Fitting the chainset and chain:

– Take off the pedals and chainset.
– Fit the new chainset, and fit the pedals.
– the chain may not be the right length – with the standard 20t sprocket, 33t chainring, and latest tensioner, the chain should be 100 links long.
– if you fit a new chain, fit either a 7/8-speed derailleur chain, or a narrow single-speed one like the SRAM PC-1.
_@srw: if the chainwheel is the same as the one I got then you want a 1/8" single-speed chain. The SRAM PC-1 works perfectly.
_
Fitting the shifter and cables:

– Fit the shifter to the right handlebar – you’ll need to cut down the handlebar grip a bit, and it should go with the cable to the front of the brake lever, not behind. If space is cramped, you can usually move the brake lever inboard a bit too. Make sure the shifter doesn’t restrict movement of the brake lever.
_@srw: I found that having the whole thing inboard of the brake works best. I don't know whether that's in front or behind!_
– Thread the outer gear cable through the plastic cable gatherer behind the stem, down alongside the other cables, behind the chainset and through the cable guide there, through the cable guide on the chainstay (going from outside to inside, like the brake cable) and up through the square tube that used to hold the plastic pulley, before curving down towards the cable guide on the hub – depending on your handlebars, you will probably need to cut a bit off the cable to make it the right length.
– Thread the gear cable through the outer cable. It’s easiest if you don’t put the outer cable into the cable guide on the hub yet, you can do this later.
– Fit the cable clamp as in the Sturmey instructions – put the shifter into 8th, and fit the clamp 105mm along from the end of the outer cable. Cut off the spare cable.
– It’s easiest if you take the tensioner off again for this bit – push the plastic cable clip on the hub backwards so you have some slack, and clip the cable clamp in place. Try operating the shifter to make sure the cable clip rotates around the hub correctly.
_@srw: if you're unlucky (I was), there's a round lockring which constrains the gear-changing gizmo in place and which can pop off. The Sturmey instructions cover this, but are very unclear. Also, when Ben says "push the plastic cable clip backwards", that's what he means. Pushing it backwards (against a spring) provides some slack to get the cable retainer into its slot. The cable retainer goes with the nut outwards._
– Adjust the gears as per the Sturmey instructions – in 4th gear, make sure the yellow dot is in the centre of the window, on the back of the hub on the right-hand side.
– Re-fit the tensioner, and try again – operate the shifter a few times while pedaling, and check again that the yellow dot is in the centre of the window – adjust the barrel adjuster on the gear shifter if necessary.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

srw said:


> I might find a different brake lever that will let me get the twist shifter further towards the centre.


Something like this...




...which is the current Brompton brake lever!


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## T4tomo (29 May 2016)

srw said:


> Something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And a damn site better than the old ones. I upgraded mine about a year ago and they have much better feel and power.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

Report after first ride: good. Very good. I don't know why Brompton don't use the 8-speed SA hub as the basis for a standard model. With the standard 33-tooth chainring, 7th gear is a decent slowish cruising gear and 8th is fine for downhill. 1st is incredible. I changed down to 3rd and then 1st on an uphill and almost pulled a wheelie because 1st is so low. Sheldon's gear calculator suggest that it's about equivalent to a 1:1 ratio on a conventional road bike.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

Flying Dodo said:


> Looking good.
> 
> It seems a better chain tensioner is now being used. Which is nice.
> 
> Something I forgot to mention on the other thread is that you may find the folding pedal doesn't fold so easily.


The folding pedal folds absolutely fine.

The chain tensioner appears to be (similar to) the one that's used for the derailleur version of the Brompton. I'm used to a conventional setup like a standard derailleur system, where the chain rides on wheels inside a frame. Instead the chain rides around the wheels, and the wheels have very shallow teeth.


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## srw (29 May 2016)

User said:


> What size do you need?


The imagination to realise that a nut acts as a perfectly good spacer for an overlong bolt!

All sorted now, thanks.


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## CopperBrompton (29 May 2016)

I had to swap the bars to get Ergon grips to fit (you still have to cut down the right-hand one, but it leaves all of the supported section so that's not an issue).


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## cisamcgu (29 May 2016)

srw said:


> To be fair to Ben, the bodges and fixes are more to do with my klutziness and the other stuff I'm doing at the same time as with the 8-speed conversion. Here's his instructions, with my comments. Based on the kit itself I'd recommend the adaptation. I'm going to go out on the bike this afternoon after which I'll report back again.
> 
> http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/uncategorized/brompton-8-spd-instructions/



Thanks for that, I read it with interest but I think it would be beyond my rudimentary skills, sadly; and Glasgow is a little far to travel to get it fitted.

Oh well...


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## GrumpyGregry (29 May 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> Thanks for that, I read it with interest but I think it would be beyond my rudimentary skills, sadly; and Glasgow is a little far to travel to get it fitted.
> 
> Oh well...


rudimentary skillz iz all you need.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (30 May 2016)

Trikeman said:


> I had to swap the bars to get Ergon grips to fit (you still have to cut down the right-hand one, but it leaves all of the supported section so that's not an issue).


I like those bars, what are they n where from please.


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## T4tomo (30 May 2016)

srw said:


> I'm now officially confused. Professor google tells me that 7/8 speed chains are 3/32", and the PC-1 is 1/8". I think I can understand how a chain that's too narrow will ride awkwardly on the chain-wheel like that.


3 speed bromptons use 1/8 chains, 6 SPD 3/32s which might have accounted for the confusion.

I'm tempted, having just a 3 speed. The SA kit as well as being cheaper than the alpine or Rohloff also allows you to keep your existing rear triangle, which having paid extra for titanium one, is a definite advantage for me. It must add a bit of weight over a 3 speed hub, but prob not too noticeable. How does it ride and shift?


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## srw (30 May 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> rudimentary skillz iz all you need.


This. I only have rudimentary skills. Good tools, however, are essential. Specifically crank pullers, a chain tool and cable clippers.


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## GrumpyGregry (30 May 2016)

srw said:


> This. I only have rudimentary skills. Good tools, however, are essential. Specifically crank pullers, a chain tool and cable clippers.


^ This.

I also needed a craft knife to get horrid Brompton foam grips off.


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## cisamcgu (30 May 2016)

srw said:


> This. I only have rudimentary skills. Good tools, however, are essential. Specifically crank pullers, a chain tool and cable clippers.



I have a chain tool, if you mean a thing for breaking and putting chains back together. I may have cable cutters, but not new ones, but I don't even know what a crank puller is (well, I do now I looked it up on the computer), and I definitely don't have one.


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## Flying Dodo (30 May 2016)

T4tomo said:


> 3 speed bromptons use 1/8 chains, 6 SPD 3/32s which might have accounted for the confusion.
> 
> I'm tempted, having just a 3 speed. The SA kit as well as being cheaper than the alpine or Rohloff also allows you to keep your existing rear triangle, which having paid extra for titanium one, is a definite advantage for me. It must add a bit of weight over a 3 speed hub, but prob not too noticeable. How does it ride and shift?


From memory, the wheel weighs 1.2kg. It is a very nice smooth changing unit. Since buying the kit just over 18 months ago, the instructions have clearly been improved a bit and it's good to note there's no longer an issue with the folding pedal as ours jammed on the crank when folding and needed quite a bit of force.


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## srw (30 May 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> I have a chain tool, if you mean a thing for breaking and putting chains back together. I may have cable cutters, but not new ones, but I don't even know what a crank puller is (well, I do now I looked it up on the computer), and I definitely don't have one.


It costs a tenner or so, or you will be able to borrow one from someone.



Flying Dodo said:


> From memory, the wheel weighs 1.2kg. It is a very nice smooth changing unit. Since buying the kit just over 18 months ago, the instructions have clearly been improved a bit and it's good to note there's no longer an issue with the folding pedal as ours jammed on the crank when folding and needed quite a bit of force.



I've compensated for the extra weight by splashing out on a fancy titanium and carbon rack, and by replacing the saddle bag I was using to carry my Carradice cape with a Carradice cape roll. Neither of which was exactly a bargain, but both of which work extremely well.

I only need to replace the brake levers and grips (and, maybe, the handlebars) to make the conversion complete. Oh, and possibly also get hold of a trailer...


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## srw (30 May 2016)

just_fixed said:


> I like those bars, what are they n where from please.


Research elsewhere in the forum suggests they're Tioga. Research on the web suggests they're no longer available.

SJS have got Brompfication titanium bars:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/brompfication-titanium-handlebars-5-deg-254mm-clamp-520mm/
for the very expensive very aggressive look

Or Thorn comfort bars, for something a bit lower than the M-bar, but possibly too wide:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/thorn-mk2-comfort-handlebars-254mm-clamp-620mm-satin-black/

These seem to be narrower:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/humpert-fixie-riser-handlebars-254mm-clamp-500mm-black/

The M-type handlebars appear to be 530mm wide:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/handlebars/brompton-handlebar-for-m-type-or-h-type-254mm-clamp/

I've just had a thought. We have a pair of butterfly-style multi-position bars in the garage as one of the (rejected) options for Mrs W as the stoker on the tandem. Might be worth a play.


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## CopperBrompton (4 Jun 2016)

just_fixed said:


> I like those bars, what are they n where from please.



Tioga mountain-bike bars.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (4 Jun 2016)

Trikeman said:


> Tioga mountain-bike bars.


Thanks


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (4 Jun 2016)

Ordered.


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## GrumpyGregry (4 Jun 2016)

I keep toying with putting risers on my S-type. It is a bit too arse up heads down for commuting in traffic.

(Where traffic = 1000's of cyclists, texting and reading social media)


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## CopperBrompton (5 Jun 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I keep toying with putting risers on my S-type. It is a bit too arse up heads down for commuting in traffic.



Yeah, I find this height a nice compromise: higher than S bars, lower than M bars.


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## windmiller (5 Jun 2016)

Brompton should have designed the S bar type just an inch or two lower than the M type - they then would have provided the best of all worlds. More practicle with better aesthetics. The fact that so many people feel they need to make them higher proves this.


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## srw (5 Jun 2016)

windmiller said:


> Brompton should have designed the S bar type just an inch or two lower than the M type - they then would have provided the best of all worlds. More practicle with better aesthetics. The fact that so many people feel they need to make them higher proves this.


I disagree - in my book the S doesn't stand for sporty it stands for short. The M-type bar is high for short people, medium for medium-sized and sporty for tall people.


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## shouldbeinbed (5 Jun 2016)

I've been mulling coworns on my S type, its maybe me getting more creaky but an inch or so higher as a <6 footer would be perfect IMHO. They're decent as they are & I never had a concern about them but since getting my Birdy with its adjustable height front stem back up and running, I do notice the joys of a slightly more sit up and beg front end.

I didn't like the M type quite as much as the S when I was buying, as it was a grimy November couple of test rides and I felt too much chest into the wind and rain and too sat up on the little steep bits of my commute.


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## T4tomo (5 Jun 2016)

I like the S bars because they get you down reasonably low, I also like the simplicity of them just being straight.


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## 12boy (5 Jun 2016)

I wish I had gone for M bars instead of S bars because they are lower albeit not as curved forward. Then I could have brought them up to S bar height with some risers or moustache bars. Still, Ergon GP2s are pretty comfortable, at least until I've been riding an hour or more on buzzy surfaces. Far too windy here for a sit up and beg type position.


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## GrumpyGregry (5 Jun 2016)

windmiller said:


> Brompton should have designed the S bar type just an inch or two lower than the M type - they then would have provided the best of all worlds. More practicle with better aesthetics. The fact that so many people feel they need to make them higher proves this.


I disagree. Ridden spiritedly in a fast moving group, or on an on the rivet solo blast the S riding position is night on perfect. Well as perfect as it can be within the limitations of the Brompton package.

It isn't intended as an out-and-out commuter, so heads down arse up is fine.


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## GrumpyGregry (5 Jun 2016)

srw said:


> I disagree - in my book the S doesn't stand for sporty it stands for short. The M-type bar is high for short people, medium for medium-sized and sporty for tall people.


and the S is sportier/sportiest for tall people.


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## windmiller (5 Jun 2016)

I agree if ridden spiritedly in a fast group or on a rivet solo blast makes up the majority of your ride time, then indeed heads down arse up is fine.


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## shouldbeinbed (6 Jun 2016)

I have fitted a set of comfortable cruising bars I had in the shed onto my Brommy this evening, first impressions are very good, it does help my knackered old neck more than I anticipated. Good news too, it will fold ok but I think a slightly longer outer for the front brake and maybe gear cable too will make it absolutely spot on. My only minor gripe is that I have to use a Spin mirror as the rake back on the bars is too much for the Dooback ratchet to accommodate.


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## Kell (9 Jun 2016)

I think the Brompton is overall too short for the S bars to put you (me) into a proper riding position.

I test rode one and felt like a cat does when it's playing with a mouse and is stood on its hind legs with its front legs straight down in front of its chest.

Like the cat at 51 seconds on this video:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR6IpfAsHQ8


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## GrumpyGregry (9 Jun 2016)

Kell said:


> I think the Brompton is overall too short for the S bars to put you (me) into a proper riding position.
> 
> I test rode one and felt like a cat does when it's playing with a mouse and is stood on its hind legs with its front legs straight down in front of its chest.
> 
> ...



How do you know how the cat feels?


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## Kell (9 Jun 2016)

I'm Dr Dolittle. Check out my avatar.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (9 Jun 2016)

Trikeman said:


> Tioga mountain-bike bars.


Fitted uncut, ridden, love 'em. Thanks.


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## Kell (10 Jun 2016)

I fitted some low rise bars to mine as I had a spare set lying around and fitted bar end so I could stretch out the riding position a little.

But I started with a H type as I wanted to ensure enough ground clearance when fully folded.

I used this diagram to work out that the H type handlebar clamp was about the same height as the S type.






And then ended up with this set up:






I took this much off the bars (so they're actually only about 4cm wider than the M type bars the bike came with).






And it all folds rather nicely:


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Jun 2016)

Kell said:


> I fitted some low rise bars to mine as I had a spare set lying around and fitted bar end so I could stretch out the riding position a little.
> 
> But I started with a H type as I wanted to ensure enough ground clearance when fully folded.
> 
> ...


Nice job.

Meanwhile a small crowd gathers, carrying pitchforks and flaming torches and "bar ends? on risers? the heretic must die!"


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Jun 2016)

User said:


> That law is only for mountain bikers.


and what are risers, pray, if not mountain bikers' bars?


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Jun 2016)

User said:


> Yeah but, when subverted to Brompton usage, it is a fresh start for them


perverted to Brompton use more like.


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## Kell (10 Jun 2016)

I know, I know.

When I rode mountain bikes in the late 80's early 90's it was all about flat bars and bar ends. The thought of putting them on risers (not that anyone rode risers at that point) was sacrilege.

Even the last MTB I bought in 2000 I had the choice of flats or risers. As I like bar ends, I went for flats.

I've just resurrected that bike and had to buy some risers and it's still too low at the front end for me these days.

I'm also in the process of rebuilding my 1994 Orange P7 and I know I'm not actually going to be able to ride it when it's done as I'm now double the age I was when I got that. And I simply can't manage that arse up, head down riding position any more.

I managed to put my back out last year on my road bike and have two compressed discs in my back, so anything I can do to get the seat and bars at about the same height is worth it for me - despite how it looks, or how my teenage self would have ridiculed it.


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## srw (12 Jun 2016)

I'm back to square one - again. Having fitted new brake levers and rear cables (the Evans standard hybrid/mountain bike brake cable kit doesn't inlcude a long enough front cable for a Brompton, or enough outer. Grrr...) I took the bike out for a final check this afternoon. Instead of a nice easy ride around the streets of the town I found myself walking back uphill with a broken gear cable. When I've got more time and patience I'll check what's going on, but I suspect that I failed to wrap the gear cable all the way around the groove in the changer on the hub, instead letting it ride across a sharp edge.

Now I need to work out how to open up the lever to find where to insert a new cable...


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## T4tomo (12 Jun 2016)

Kell said:


> I fitted some low rise bars to mine as I had a spare set lying around and fitted bar end so I could stretch out the riding position a little.
> 
> But I started with a H type as I wanted to ensure enough ground clearance when fully folded.
> 
> ...


You need a sharper saw or a better technique. My metalwork teacher would have had you in detention for that effort.


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## Kell (13 Jun 2016)

T4tomo said:


> You need a sharper saw or a better technique. My metalwork teacher would have had you in detention for that effort.



Probably both. A bad workman always blames his tools.


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## 12boy (13 Jun 2016)

Easiest way is to use plumbers, copper pipe cutters. They cut aluminum easily and make the cut straight and true all the way around.They will cut normal bars, road or mountain although I don,t know about 31.8. Still, I don't think folders usually use that size.


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Jun 2016)

Kell said:


> I know, I know.
> 
> When I rode mountain bikes in the late 80's early 90's it was all about flat bars and bar ends. The thought of putting them on risers (not that anyone rode risers at that point) was sacrilege.
> 
> ...


Or how badly it compromises the ride/handling as a result of changing the weight distribution on the bike...?


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Jun 2016)

srw said:


> Now I need to work out how to open up the lever to find where to insert a new cable...


Let me know how you get on. When I asked about the principle SJS told me I had to buy a new shifter which comes with the inner cable already fitted. £40 I think.


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## srw (13 Jun 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Let me know how you get on. When I asked about the principle SJS told me I had to buy a new shifter which comes with the inner cable already fitted. £40 I think.


Unlike. I've found them online for £30.


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## Kell (14 Jun 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Or how badly it compromises the ride/handling as a result of changing the weight distribution on the bike...?



Badly? It's been a massively positive change as far as I'm concerned. The bike is very stable at speed (recorded a 44.4mph downhill near me). It's much less twitchy when you're out the saddle because the bars are wider and, for the most part, the weight is further forward when leaning on them.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wNkVZltMfw


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## GrumpyGregry (14 Jun 2016)

Kell said:


> Badly? It's been a massively positive change as far as I'm concerned. The bike is very stable at speed (recorded a 44.4mph downhill near me). It's much less twitchy when you're out the saddle because the bars are wider and, for the most part, the weight is further forward when leaning on them.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wNkVZltMfw



I was referring to the P7


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## Kell (15 Jun 2016)

D'oh.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Jun 2016)

Kell said:


> D'oh.


I won't go above 40ish on my Brompton. Tank slappers.


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## srw (19 Jun 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Let me know how you get on. When I asked about the principle SJS told me I had to buy a new shifter which comes with the inner cable already fitted. £40 I think.


I had enough slack in the cable(s) to shorten them. I've now got what seems to be a functioning gear system - but only with a slack chain. THe gizmo that screws on to the cable and then fixes to the gear changer on the hub is fouling the chain tensioner - which was, I think, the root cause of all the trouble. There's no possibility of paring a bit off the tensioner, but it looks as though if I can find a spacer to go inside the first doobrie on the drive side (the doobrie with the bent over bit that sticks in the slot in the frame) then the tensioner will be far enough out not to foul. Unfortunately (inevitably) I don't possess such a spacer. I've got a nylon washer, but the hole is too small and isn't enlarging easily, and inner tube just fouls everything and gets crushed.

Bah humbug.


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## cisamcgu (19 Jun 2016)

It is rather looking like I won't be going down this route ... too much worry, too much stress, even if the problems are not insurmountable in the end. Basically, if I pay the money I expect it to work 

@srw thank you so much for the ongoing thread


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jun 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> It is rather looking like I won't be going down this route ... too much worry, too much stress, even if the problems are not insurmountable in the end. Basically, if I pay the money I expect it to work
> 
> @srw thank you so much for the ongoing thread


I paid the money. It worked.

Bromptons are no more precision engineered than the next bike, dropouts misaligned, rear triangles poorly cold set, et cetera, et cetera.


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## snorri (19 Jun 2016)

cisamcgu said:


> It is rather looking like I won't be going down this route ... too much worry, too much stress, even if the problems are not insurmountable in the end. Basically, if I pay the money I expect it to work


Yip, best move along, I discovered paying the money and expecting it to work was the wrong mindset for dealing with that company.


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## srw (20 Jun 2016)

GrumpyGregry said:


> I paid the money. It worked.
> 
> Bromptons are no more precision engineered than the next bike, dropouts misaligned, rear triangles poorly cold set, et cetera, et cetera.


It's almost working. Which is more frustrating than not working.

I suspect my latest problem is to with an over-tightened widget. Having over-tightened I'm not sure I can now slacken.


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## PaulM (22 Jun 2016)

srw said:


> I had enough slack in the cable(s) to shorten them. I've now got what seems to be a functioning gear system - but only with a slack chain. THe gizmo that screws on to the cable and then fixes to the gear changer on the hub is fouling the chain tensioner - which was, I think, the root cause of all the trouble. There's no possibility of paring a bit off the tensioner, but it looks as though if I can find a spacer to go inside the first doobrie on the drive side (the doobrie with the bent over bit that sticks in the slot in the frame) then the tensioner will be far enough out not to foul. Unfortunately (inevitably) I don't possess such a spacer. I've got a nylon washer, but the hole is too small and isn't enlarging easily, and inner tube just fouls everything and gets crushed.
> 
> Bah humbug.


Do you mean the cable anchorage nut is fouling on the derailleur when you operate the shifter? I had that at one time but it was because I had re-assembled it wrongly. I can't remember the details but the problem/solution was something to do with the spacing of the derailleur on the axle, maybe just the thickness of a washer on the axle. I might have mixed up the washer with one from the original 3 speed hub rather than used the one that came with the 8-speed kit in an ill-advised attempt to use the lightest bits. Anyhow, when I went back to how I had it originally it was fine and has operated flawlessly even after further removals of the rear wheel.

EDIT: Ah yes, it was simply the thickness of the lock-washer. I tried to use the thinner 3-speed hub lock washer rather than the thicker lock-washer that came with the 8-speed kit. Problem solved


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## PaulM (27 Jun 2016)

Also the SA hub is sensitive to indexing in the higher gears. On a couple of occasions after re-installing the wheel it's been fine in the first 5 or 6 gears but then 7 and 8 play up. When you check the hub indicator in 4th gear the yellow mark shows ok in the hub window but the gear cable can still be too tight. I found that if I slackenedd it sufficiently to get a clean shift going from 5th to 6th when pedalling, then further upshifts to 7 and 8 would be fine. The good news is that it seems to hold the adjustment well, assuming it's left in gear 8 when not in use.


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## GrumpyGregry (27 Jun 2016)

PaulM said:


> Also the SA hub is sensitive to indexing in the higher gears. On a couple of occasions after re-installing the wheel it's been fine in the first 5 or 6 gears but then 7 and 8 play up. When you check the hub indicator in 4th gear the yellow mark shows ok in the hub window but the gear cable can still be too tight. I found that if I slackenedd it sufficiently to get a clean shift going from 5th to 6th when pedalling, then further upshifts to 7 and 8 would be fine. The good news is that it seems to hold the adjustment well, *assuming it's left in gear 8 when not in use*.


Are you meant to do that?


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## PaulM (27 Jun 2016)

It's just sensible to have the cable under lowest tension when not in use to reduce stretching the cable. Likewise I put all derailleurs (front and rear) into their "normal" positions when the bike isn't in use.


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## srw (17 Jul 2016)

Fingers crossed, I'm now done. There's an alternative 8-speed (thumb) shifter, which is nicer, better quality, and importantly has a replaceable cable. To my surprise it fits nicely.

I've also added a barrel adjuster (taken from the 3-speed) at the back, which makes fine adjustment easier.

I've also added a cape roll and a fibre flare for full winter commuting duty.


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## srw (18 Jul 2016)

That second photo makes it obvious that I need new grips!

Sadly my plan to commute on it today has been scuppered by feeling as if I got about 2 hours sleep last night. In fact it was about 7 - if interrupted - but I decided that a day of rest would be better than sitting in the office in a fug.


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## T4tomo (18 Jul 2016)

Is that a cape or a 30 man marquee?


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## srw (24 Oct 2016)

By way of update...

The hub is now sounding a bit graunchy - as if it's not got enough lubricant. But the manual essentially says "don't lubricate". A couple of spokes have broken, which led me to realise that the wheel really wasn't well built at all, with all the spoke heads facing the same way - so I spent Saturday morning rebuilding to reduce the stress on the spokes. I now can't get the hub nuts to screw on properly - they're cross-threading badly, and since they're very soft aluminium the threads are going. And when I took the bike out for its test ride the chain slipped off the sprocket and jammed behind the adjuster. So I've got another week without a bike commute until I can get the thing fixed again, probably borrowing the nuts from my 3-speed wheel.

I'm beginning (!) to think that it wasn't a great purchase. Which is frustrating. I love the gear ratios, but I have spent more time bodging and fudging and fixing than I ever wanted to, not being especially mechanically minded. I've got a window coming up shortly to get a bike-to-work voucher, so I'm contemplating using that to get a replacement, and selling on the old bike to someone who's more of a mechanic than me.


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## cisamcgu (24 Oct 2016)

Sorry to hear of your woes, but I really appreciate your continuing story - thank you


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## GrumpyGregry (24 Oct 2016)

srw said:


> By way of update...
> 
> The hub is now sounding a bit graunchy - as if it's not got enough lubricant. But the manual essentially says "don't lubricate". A couple of spokes have broken, which led me to realise that the wheel really wasn't well built at all, with all the spoke heads facing the same way - so I spent Saturday morning rebuilding to reduce the stress on the spokes. I now can't get the hub nuts to screw on properly - they're cross-threading badly, and since they're very soft aluminium the threads are going. And when I took the bike out for its test ride the chain slipped off the sprocket and jammed behind the adjuster. So I've got another week without a bike commute until I can get the thing fixed again, probably borrowing the nuts from my 3-speed wheel.
> 
> I'm beginning (!) to think that it wasn't a great purchase. Which is frustrating. I love the gear ratios, but I have spent more time bodging and fudging and fixing than I ever wanted to, not being especially mechanically minded. I've got a window coming up shortly to get a bike-to-work voucher, so I'm contemplating using that to get a replacement, and selling on the old bike to someone who's more of a mechanic than me.


That's a downer.

Mine needs a new shifter cable.


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## Flying Dodo (25 Oct 2016)

srw said:


> By way of update...
> 
> The hub is now sounding a bit graunchy - as if it's not got enough lubricant. But the manual essentially says "don't lubricate". A couple of spokes have broken, which led me to realise that the wheel really wasn't well built at all, with all the spoke heads facing the same way - so I spent Saturday morning rebuilding to reduce the stress on the spokes. I now can't get the hub nuts to screw on properly - they're cross-threading badly, and since they're very soft aluminium the threads are going. And when I took the bike out for its test ride the chain slipped off the sprocket and jammed behind the adjuster. So I've got another week without a bike commute until I can get the thing fixed again, probably borrowing the nuts from my 3-speed wheel.
> 
> I'm beginning (!) to think that it wasn't a great purchase. Which is frustrating. I love the gear ratios, but I have spent more time bodging and fudging and fixing than I ever wanted to, not being especially mechanically minded. I've got a window coming up shortly to get a bike-to-work voucher, so I'm contemplating using that to get a replacement, and selling on the old bike to someone who's more of a mechanic than me.



I'm really sorry to see this. I've been really pleased with my kit. My only moan was about the poor instructions. However, having fitted it originally on the Brompton, it was then very easy to fit onto the Bickerton as I knew how the bits went together! My wheel is very solid and well built, so it's a shame that it seems yours wasn't.


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## Yellow Saddle (25 Oct 2016)

User said:


> I have just looked at your photo in the OP and, goodness they are quite literally all facing the same way with heads out one side and heads in the other. It is as though the wheel builder just dropped all the spokes in in one go from one side. I wonder if @Yellow Saddle knows of a good reason why they might have done that.


Whoa! Long thread. I'll gladly comment if you can narrow down the post/picture where the offending wheel appears.


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## Yellow Saddle (25 Oct 2016)

Oh there, right under my nose.

I didn't read the rest of the story, it looks very sad, so I'll address your question only.

I think the wheelbuilder did the right thing but I want to give it a bit more thought.

The problem he faced is working with a large flange hub (I guess it is about 45mm whereas normal hubs are about 30mm) and small rim. This makes it very difficult to get multiple crossings without one spoke crossing over an adjacent spoke's (two spokes down) head. Look at a normal wheel and see how, if you increase the crossings eventually a spoke crosses over the head of another one. The way to avoid is is to make less crossings, in this case just 1.

If he alternated the spokes heads-in/heads-out, the crossing would not have interleaved. Interleaving is when the crossing touches the other spoke and both spokes pull the other one out of the straight line they could have followed. This crossing then serves the purpose of keeping tension on one spoke if the adjacent one is temporarily detensioned when hitting a bump. It serves to keep the spoke tight so that the nipple doesn't rattle loose.

It appears to me that if the builder on this wheel kept a `1X crossing and alternated the spokes, the interleave would have been pretty severe and perhaps created an ugly or awkward (for him) crossing. By putting the spokes both on the same side he softened the interleave.

Whether this was a real problem or even pre-meditated is another issue altogether.

That's the best I can come up with for now. It would help me if someone can tell me what flange size that hub has or indeed what hub it is. Then I can calculate the various angles for 1X, 2X and 3X and see what would happen.

A rule of thumb for determining the maximum number of crossings a wheel can do is to divide the number of spokes by 9. On a 36-spoke wheel you would get away with 4 crosses before the spoke head is fouled. On the same wheel with 48 spokes you could do 5. On tandem wheels we like to cross them 4X but standard road wheels 3X. The number goes down as the flange size increases and rim size decreases.


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## Pale Rider (25 Oct 2016)

Not sure if this comparison is valid, but here's the pattern on my Mavic/Alfine 11 wheel built by Rose.

Looks similar to the OP's wheel.

Mine has done thousands of trouble-free miles.

The hub blew up - a lot did - but that was nothing to do with the wheel build.


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## srw (25 Oct 2016)

User said:


> I have just looked at your photo in the OP and, goodness they are quite literally all facing the same way with heads out one side and heads in the other. It is as though the wheel builder just dropped all the spokes in in one go from one side. I wonder if @Yellow Saddle knows of a good reason why they might have done that.


I know very little about wheel-building, but I know that it's normal to alternate innies and outies (which I think @Pale Rider's wheel-builder did). I don't really understand what @Yellow Saddle is saying (sorry - it's not your fault), but I think (s)he is talking about a wheel-build where the spokes are laced around each other. One of the things I learned back in the late 90s when I first got a Brompton - at a time when Brompton themselves were still learning how to build wheels, and being a heavy customer I broke spokes with monotonous regularity - was that lacing small wheels isn't really necessary. (That spoke-breaking problem was solved first by me finding someone who realised that mini-washers acted to reduce play between the spoke and the hub and then by Brompton realising that a spoke with a much smaller bent bit than usual worked well with the relatively thin flanges of a SA 3-speed).

The wheel I got this year wasn't laced, but having all the heads on the same side meant that every other spoke was at a very awkward angle in its hub hole, and I think that created points of weakness. By alternating head direction I've now built something 1X where crossing spokes don't touch at all - which is just like the Brompton dynamo hub front wheel and the 3-speed rear I've got.

The hub diameter is enormous - it's got something like a 20-tooth sprocket on it, and the hub is a fair bit bigger than that. I've used 126mm spokes, which isn't quite as small as SJS goes, but is pretty close. Fortunately I did extract that size out of the vendor before he failed to send me the replacements he promised....

One of the things that I've found frustrating, being a thinker not really a doer, is that all the tolerances are tiny. There's only just room for the chain to pass between the sprocket and the tensioner, and likewise between the gear adjuster and the chain tensioner.


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## Pale Rider (25 Oct 2016)

Like you, I don't get the physics of wheel building, but the 'awkward angle' some of the spokes leave the hub may have something to do with your problems.

There's a similar theory for hub motor ebikes as to why spokes break, the large diameter motor causes the same awkward angle of exit.

I've seen an after market Brompton hub motor wheel on which the spokes are simply radial - no cross over at all.

Looks odd, and I've no idea if it works any better.

Edit: Pic added in the wrong place, but at least it's there.


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