# Is this the most dangerous road in London?



## jonny jeez (8 Sep 2015)

Edit.
****UPDATE LATER ON IN THIS THREAD****

Ok, so maybe not dangerous in the sense that people have been seriously hurt or injured riding here.

But, if we measure danger as the frequency of crashes, then this road has to be way up there.

In the last 12 months, I have thankfully seen very few crashes. However, on this section of Road in London I have witnessed 5 cyclists crashing and two motorcyclists…I have also had the closest thing to a fall on my own motorcycle.

Today, I met a new cyclist who suffered the 6th fall that I have witnessed on this road. His fall sent him flying to the kerb (at 20-25MPH) hitting the side of his head on the angle of the kerbstone resulting in a huge dent in his lid…(helmet naysayers behold!)… damage to the bike was minimal (although real,) tights were shredded and pride was intact. It could have been a really nasty fall that could also have ended in a hospitalised rider…or worse.

So, can you see the reason why this dull section of road is a potential Killer?


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## User6179 (8 Sep 2015)

Is that a raised kerb ?


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## martint235 (8 Sep 2015)

I used to go along there every day before taking a left at the cycle path at the pub. Never really had any issues but I'm not sure if that little ridge was there then


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## ClichéGuevara (8 Sep 2015)

Is it the sniper hiding behind the tree near the bus stop?


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## jefmcg (8 Sep 2015)

This is proof we don't have a compensation culture. If everyone who had an accident caused by that raise lip had sued the local authority, it would be gone by now, as it would be cheaper to fix the road than to keep paying out.


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## jonny jeez (8 Sep 2015)

Yep, the dotted line on the left highlights a kerbstone that is raised about an inch and a half. As you can see from the car parked on the left in the distance, this is a lay-by and as such, pops in and out, encouraging riders to deviate from the main road and drop into it.

Which they all do


Once.


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## martint235 (8 Sep 2015)

To be fair it's not exactly hidden and cyclists shouldn't really be leaving the carriageway to go into the parking bays.


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## Incontinentia Buttocks (8 Sep 2015)

Could the reason for the crashes be the frequency it's used? If it's 5 times more popular than the next stretch it may have 5 tines more accidents. Or is there a very cycle friendly pub round the corner that does discount for Lycra hence well oiled cyclist's stacking it every day?
My own hope is thst @ClichéGuevara is correct and there is a hidden sniper on the grassy knoll.


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## Markymark (8 Sep 2015)

martint235 said:


> To be fair it's not exactly hidden and cyclists shouldn't really be leaving the carriageway to go into the parking bays.


No but I bet you enough cars pass too close because the drivers think the cyclist should in the parking lane making the cyclist pull left to avoid a close pass/collision and hitting the kerb whilst doing so.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2015)

martint235 said:


> To be fair it's not exactly hidden and cyclists shouldn't really be leaving the carriageway to go into the parking bays.


And Southwark Council really shouldn't be sticking unmarked hazards for 2 wheeled vehicles in their carriageways.


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## jonny jeez (8 Sep 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> No but I bet you enough cars pass too close because the drivers think the cyclist should in the parking lane making the cyclist pull left to avoid a close pass/collision and hitting the kerb whilst doing so.



A bit of this but mostly that the fact that the kerbstone that is raised is really hard to spot. You are riding above it , sort of looking down on it and focussing on traffic and hazards, you don't expect the dotted line that divides the layby from the road to have a raised kerb. and as a result, if you move to close to it, you suffer a glancing clash that stops you being able to counter steer...and over you go.

I am a pretty experience rider (bikes and motorcycles) and I fell for it (literally) the first time I encountered it, I only just managed to stay upright, which was more due to the fact that the road happened to be empty and I could wobble about to gain my balance. Pinched my tyre good and proper and took me totally unaware.

Its really nasty and totally unnecessary.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> No but I bet you enough cars pass too close because the drivers think the cyclist should in the parking lane making the cyclist pull left to avoid a close pass/collision and hitting the kerb whilst doing so.


Yes, and the straighter a road is the less cars will be prepared to deviate enough to perform a safe passing manoeuvre.


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## Drago (8 Sep 2015)

The road is benign. It's the fools that use it that make it dangerous.


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## jonny jeez (8 Sep 2015)

martint235 said:


> To be fair it's not exactly hidden.


It is though. Its really well hidden and in the dark is all but invisible. the kerbstone is clear but the fact that it is raised is not. also the layby issue is a bit misleading. at one point, this actually looks like a bus lane or hard shoulder...its huge.

Also, you don't need to be entering it, I don't think anyone successfully does, just touching it without realising will have you off the bike in good time


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2015)

I've just sent a link to this post to the coordinator of Southwark Cyclists. I'm sure they're aware of the problem already but I just wanted to add weight to their case.


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## jonny jeez (8 Sep 2015)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I've just sent a link to this post to the coordinator of Southwark Cyclists. I'm sure they're aware of the problem already but I just wanted to add weight to their case.


Let me know if you need a pm with the details of the rider who came a cropper, I've subsequently strava end up with him.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Sep 2015)

jonny jeez said:


> Let me know if you need a pm with the details of the rider who came a cropper, I've subsequently strava end up with him.


Ok, will do. Mind, I've linked to this thread so they should get a good idea of what the state of the road is and what the hazard is.


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## Profpointy (8 Sep 2015)

it is pretty moronic bit of design - presumably specified by a (loosley speaking) "highway engineer". 

Mind you, one of the worse things I've seen are drain covers with grooves running *parallel *to the kerb. This was in Cardiff near the castle albeit 40 years ago. I'd guess they are still there.


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## Lonestar (8 Sep 2015)

Hope you don't mind me posting this here but I now have bad problems with this junction on the opposite side (Coming up from Aldgate East) but with the same basics.Three times in less than ten commutes cars have mistaken some green signal from somewhere to do a left when the proceed is on the cyclist traffic light as shown here.Car crosses from the left hand car turn lane regularly misreading the lights.This is at Bethnal Green.(This is a mirror of the other side)

Any advice gratefully received.I know im experienced but this one has me baffled.(Thinking now,stop even more far advanced rather than vulnerable on the line position?)


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## martint235 (8 Sep 2015)

Proceed with caution when you have the green cyclist light. Isn't that what's meant to happen anyway?


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## Lonestar (8 Sep 2015)

martint235 said:


> Proceed with caution when you have the green cyclist light. Isn't that what's meant to happen anyway?



Yeah,while the car from the left disregards the lights.They don't actually know what they've done wrong.Thanks anyway.i just wonder how many cyclists are going to get caught out by this little trick.

I think the answer is stop and wait till they've finished their cock-up.Ha.Another option is use the car lane.


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## martint235 (8 Sep 2015)

Lonestar said:


> Yeah,while the car from the left disregards the lights.They don't actually know what they've done wrong.Thanks anyway.i just wonder how many cyclists are going to get caught out by this little trick.
> 
> I think the answer is stop and wait till they've finished their cock-up.Ha.Another option is use the car lane.


These are the things everyone wanted "cos the Dutch have them" and "of course our cycling culture will change to match the Dutch one" . Well frankly our culture won't change without re-education so let's stop ponsing around with badly thought out infrastructure and re-educate everyone, cyclists included, into how to share a simply designed road space effectively


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## Lonestar (8 Sep 2015)

Just be patient,you mean.


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## martint235 (8 Sep 2015)

Lonestar said:


> Just be patient,you mean.


No I mean stop wasting money on stuff like in your picture and use that money to do something meaningful. What have a. cyclists gained; b. motorists gained and c. the taxpayer gained by what has been experienced by yourself at the junction? Anything other than a complete and utter waste of money. While organisations such as LCC keep harping on about "isn't Holland wonderful" we'll end up with more of this tosh which does nothing to increase safety on the roads.


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## Lonestar (8 Sep 2015)

Good point,I get it.


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Sep 2015)

I got a reply from the coordinator of Southwark cyclists yesterday but didn't see it until this morning: http://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/great-dover-street-kerb-your-enthusiasm/
(I think they've quoted you @jonny jeez ) I don't know what action they might take but he thanked us for pointing it out and said ''keep them coming...''


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## mustang1 (9 Sep 2015)

Good thread, @Jonny

I don't use that road but its something I warn my kids about: parallel small kerbs/inclines. 

Hope something is done about this crap design.


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## SouthwarkLCC (11 Sep 2015)

Ullo - Southwark Coordinator 'ere - in our defence can we say that we complained to TFL when this was done circa 6 years ago - this is part of the TLRN of course- complaint by the late Barry Mason - with no effect

See err http://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/great-dover-street-kerb-your-enthusiasm/

Raised this on our road works ride with TFL yesterday (Thursday) who say this is up for further change as area is needed for stacking trucks re works at London bridge etc and we suggested a bit of work with an angle grinder would not go amiss


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## SouthwarkLCC (28 Sep 2015)

Ah - an update .....“We have just been instructed to look at part of Great Dover Street of the feasibility of improvements for cyclists between the Trinity Street and Black Horse Court junctions. I don’t yet have any timescales for this, and only received this last Friday. As soon as we have more information we will let you know.”


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## subaqua (28 Sep 2015)

martint235 said:


> These are the things everyone wanted "cos the Dutch have them" and "of course our cycling culture will change to match the Dutch one" . Well frankly our culture won't change without re-education so let's stop ponsing around with badly thought out infrastructure and re-educate everyone, cyclists included, into how to share a simply designed road space effectively


i didn't want it , but the segregationists did. Yes LCC I am looking at you lot . nearly got wiped out last week on the east bound heading to Stratford when some dipper in a car didn't read the lights properly.

lesson learnt . I will use the straight ahead lane and have a witty retort ready for the drivers who say i should "Use your own fecking lane " ,

well done LCC your stunning whinging made my journey LESS safe and more stressful than it used to be.


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## deptfordmarmoset (28 Sep 2015)

subaqua said:


> i didn't want it , but the segregationists did. Yes LCC I am looking at you lot . nearly got wiped out last week on the east bound heading to Stratford when some dipper in a car didn't read the lights properly.
> 
> lesson learnt . I will use the straight ahead lane and have a witty retort ready for the drivers who say i should "Use your own fecking lane " ,
> 
> well done LCC your stunning whinging made my journey LESS safe and more stressful than it used to be. Cnuts


Hold on there. I didn't bring this thread to Southwark LCC's attention so that you could abuse them for a near miss in Stratford. It's in reponse to a bit of abject incompetence on the part of Southwark's highway engineers and Southwark LCC are the most appropriate people to refer to. It's nothing to do with cycle facilities, segregated or not, it's all to do with providing on road parking to the detriment of cyclists' safety.

If you have a problem with entitlement driving and people who can't recognise a green bicyle light in East London take it up with the local LCC branch or the central organisation. Do it in the right place and try to make it count. I find your post destructive.


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## jonny jeez (19 Feb 2016)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> I got a reply from the coordinator of Southwark cyclists yesterday but didn't see it until this morning: http://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/great-dover-street-kerb-your-enthusiasm/
> (I think they've quoted you @jonny jeez ) I don't know what action they might take but he thanked us for pointing it out and said ''keep them coming...''


So by way of an update, and a result of sorts.

the road has now been adjusted.

Whilst the adjustment is not that dramatic it does at least illustrate an acceptance that things like this can be a real hazard, so a result in that context.

The adjustments amount (at this stage *) to a replacement of the central white dotted line, which now curves out onto the opposite lane (reducing the width of this lane a little of course) but allowing a wider lane that can accommodate a motor vehicle and a cyclist, without causing the cyclist to clip the low rise curb.

*I say at this stage", as the road surface is also in the process of being replaced, so its possible that a more long term solution will become apparent soon. Ideally they should loose the low rise curb section altogether, it seems to provide no purpose other than occasional parking and a painted bay could do that job just as well.

thanks to @deptfordmarmoset, for reporting in the correct fashion.

RESULT


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## TheJDog (23 Feb 2016)

I hit something like this on the Marylebone Road once, drifted into the bus stop area, on the floor at 20 mph+ before I knew what was happening.


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## hhgolfer (23 Aug 2016)

Going back to the original post of jonny jeez on 8th September 2015 I was cycling north on Great Dover Street on the 11th June 2016 when I hit the curb on this same section of the road as described at an angle and landed on the concrete lay-by. I hit my head on the concrete and broke my olecranon (part of elbow) ending up in St Thomas's hospital for 3 days after undergoing surgery. There were no cars parked in the lay-by at the time and I was unaware of the curb which is difficult to see and and so it maybe tempting for cyclists to veer onto the lay-be for that section of the road to escape cars! This section of the road is definitely a danger to cyclists and i note there is a drain which has been marked in yellow for repair which is a major hazarrd. I note that Andy Cawdell of Southwark Cyclists commented on this post and commented in his article that "we have just been instructed to look at part of Great Dover Street of the feasibility of improvements for cyclists between the Trinity Street and Black Horse Court junctions. I don't yet have any timescales for this, and only received this last Friday. As soon as we have more information we will let you know." 
http://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/great-dover-street-kerb-your-enthusiasm/
I would be interested to know if anybody has any further information as this spot is clearly a danger zone to cyclists and action needs to be carried out to prevent any further accidents occurring.


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## Lonestar (23 Aug 2016)

subaqua said:


> i didn't want it , but the segregationists did. Yes LCC I am looking at you lot . nearly got wiped out last week on the east bound heading to Stratford when some dipper in a car didn't read the lights properly.
> 
> lesson learnt . I will use the straight ahead lane and have a witty retort ready for the drivers who say i should "Use your own fecking lane " ,
> 
> well done LCC your stunning whinging made my journey LESS safe and more stressful than it used to be.



Not surprised.I had a lot of trouble at those lights and a workmate was quite upset also because some driver almost wiped him out.Seems to be improved now,not so many problems.Then again I have to only contend with Bow and Mile End because I hook up with CS 3 after Mile End.


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## subaqua (23 Aug 2016)

Lonestar said:


> Not surprised.I had a lot of trouble at those lights and a workmate was quite upset also because some driver almost wiped him out.Seems to be improved now,not so many problems.Then again I have to only contend with Bow and Mile End because I hook up with CS 3 after Mile End.



biggest problem is the poor execution of the junctions, oh and tesco putting trolleys in the lane 

left hooks galore along CS2 and the notional box junction where cars queuing leave a gap for thise turning right across lanes. so glad my reactions are quick. but I have my wits about me. Oh hang on didn't a blond mop get crucified for saying poor infra was OK if you have wits about you. 

I still stand by comments on LCC as a whole not being the voice for ALL London cyclists.


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## glenn forger (23 Aug 2016)

Fatalities so far, hope this is ok here jonny?

https://visionzerolondon.wordpress.com/latest-pedestrians-and-cyclists-deaths-in-london/



> 2014 : *64 pedestrians and 13 cyclists killed, = 61% of all road deaths* (56% of all KSIs)
> 
> *2015 – 66 pedestrians and 9 cyclists killed, = 55% of all road deaths (53% of all KSIs)*


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## jonny jeez (23 Aug 2016)

hhgolfer said:


> Going back to the original post of jonny jeez on 8th September 2015 I was cycling north on Great Dover Street on the 11th June 2016 when I hit the curb on this same section of the road as described at an angle and landed on the concrete lay-by. I hit my head on the concrete and broke my olecranon (part of elbow) ending up in St Thomas's hospital for 3 days after undergoing surgery. There were no cars parked in the lay-by at the time and I was unaware of the curb which is difficult to see and and so it maybe tempting for cyclists to veer onto the lay-be for that section of the road to escape cars! This section of the road is definitely a danger to cyclists and i note there is a drain which has been marked in yellow for repair which is a major hazarrd. I note that Andy Cawdell of Southwark Cyclists commented on this post and commented in his article that "we have just been instructed to look at part of Great Dover Street of the feasibility of improvements for cyclists between the Trinity Street and Black Horse Court junctions. I don't yet have any timescales for this, and only received this last Friday. As soon as we have more information we will let you know."
> http://southwarkcyclists.org.uk/great-dover-street-kerb-your-enthusiasm/
> I would be interested to know if anybody has any further information as this spot is clearly a danger zone to cyclists and action needs to be carried out to prevent any further accidents occurring.


Ouch, 

I don't ride the section any longer as my workplace has changed but I do come home along it on the scooter (cant turn left at tower bridge so just head over London bridge instead) I have seen a few riders and one motorcycle on its side in the last year. I assume that this is representative of the number of incidents. The width of the road has been increased by shifting the dotted central line but the problem of a stealth kerb still exists. Its really hard to see and virtually impossible in the dark.

I'm sorry to hear that it caught you out too, get well soon.


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## jonny jeez (23 Aug 2016)

Lonestar said:


> Yeah,while the car from the left disregards the lights.They don't actually know what they've done wrong.Thanks anyway.i just wonder how many cyclists are going to get caught out by this little trick.
> 
> I think the answer is stop and wait till they've finished their cock-up.Ha.Another option is use the car lane.


I have to say that in parts of the highway, there are really daft design flaws. I get that It will take time for us all to adjust but there will always be a driver/pedestrian/rider who has never come across it all before and will cause an issue.


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## Lonestar (24 Aug 2016)

jonny jeez said:


> I have to say that in parts of the highway, there are really daft design flaws. I get that It will take time for us all to adjust but there will always be a driver/pedestrian/rider who has never come across it all before and will cause an issue.



Not the only ones.Tower Gateway and the bit near Southwark Bridge where cars get confused are my favorites.Obviously unfamiliarity is a problem.Isn't Elephant and Castle fun?

Warton Road turning between Bow and Stratford.(left hook potential and lack of signalling/cyclists going up the insideThe motorists don't know how to handle that one.They always seem to overtake then stop instead of hanging back and being patient.Inviting the unpredictable pass on the inside.


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## Dannz (22 Oct 2016)

I had an accident here yesterday at about 5:45pm. The road was busy, and it was getting dark. It was my first time cycling down Great Dover Street. The road is marked as red route, and parking restrictions apply to 7pm. There were no vehicles parked and this is a section of the road which is meant to be used by traffic at that time. So I moved across to let cars behind me get past. (Isn't that part of the rationale for red routes ?). Instead I hit this unexpected change of level in the road at an angle. I took a tumble and luckily wasn't hit by the car behind me. My right knee got the worst of it. Injuries could have been a lot worse, and possibly fatal. 

A road surface is meant to be free of significant irregularities. Kerbs belong at the side of the road, not in the road! 
If the recent 'adjustments' with moving the centre line were logical, TFL should have also put double red lines down the side of this shoulder to mark this as the kerb and the _edge_ of the carriageway. Without marking the edge of the carriageway appropriately in this way, this section of road appears to be two lanes wide going west, inviting unwary cyclists to move across into the inside lane at busy times - just as I did. 

Double red lines running alongside this inner stealth kerb is a quick and easy fix, and could prevent a fatal accident by proper marking of the kerb. Alternatively, if current road markings are correct and TFL want to have this as a widened section of road, this should be properly smooth and level in accordance with road standards - which this is not.


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## jonny jeez (5 Nov 2016)

Dannz said:


> I had an accident here yesterday at about 5:45pm. The road was busy, and it was getting dark. It was my first time cycling down Great Dover Street. The road is marked as red route, and parking restrictions apply to 7pm. There were no vehicles parked and this is a section of the road which is meant to be used by traffic at that time. So I moved across to let cars behind me get past. (Isn't that part of the rationale for red routes ?). Instead I hit this unexpected change of level in the road at an angle. I took a tumble and luckily wasn't hit by the car behind me. My right knee got the worst of it. Injuries could have been a lot worse, and possibly fatal.
> 
> A road surface is meant to be free of significant irregularities. Kerbs belong at the side of the road, not in the road!
> If the recent 'adjustments' with moving the centre line were logical, TFL should have also put double red lines down the side of this shoulder to mark this as the kerb and the _edge_ of the carriageway. Without marking the edge of the carriageway appropriately in this way, this section of road appears to be two lanes wide going west, inviting unwary cyclists to move across into the inside lane at busy times - just as I did.
> ...


Hope you recover soon.

its a really nasty piece of design.

All the best.


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## keithmac (9 Nov 2016)

That's a shocking piece of road, to be fair I'd probably do the same (pull to the left if no parked cars) and end up on the floor..

Isn't the council negligent, especially if it's been brought to their attention before?.


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## mjr (11 Nov 2016)

keithmac said:


> Isn't the council negligent, especially if it's been brought to their attention before?.


I think so. Doesn't it need an injured person seeking compensation to become aware that it's been brought to their attention before, before anything will change?


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## Pete Owens (13 Nov 2016)

They tried the same treatment for a cycle lane in Brighton .. with the same results:
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1167...cycle_lane_branded_a____death_trap___/?ref=mr


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## Pete Owens (13 Nov 2016)

And this is an even more disguised low kerb in Manchester:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/59270/


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## crazyjoe101 (7 Dec 2016)

Hehehe, I recall on a recent mini tour to Paris I filtered into a bus stop to get past some standstill traffic, smug as usual, and then participated in a forward-sideways roll over the bars and off the bike as I went into the same high curb that always alomost catches me out but this time did. Was funny at such a low speed but wouldn't be so over 15.


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## hhgolfer (10 Nov 2017)

Dannz said:


> I had an accident here yesterday at about 5:45pm. The road was busy, and it was getting dark. It was my first time cycling down Great Dover Street. The road is marked as red route, and parking restrictions apply to 7pm. There were no vehicles parked and this is a section of the road which is meant to be used by traffic at that time. So I moved across to let cars behind me get past. (Isn't that part of the rationale for red routes ?). Instead I hit this unexpected change of level in the road at an angle. I took a tumble and luckily wasn't hit by the car behind me. My right knee got the worst of it. Injuries could have been a lot worse, and possibly fatal.
> 
> A road surface is meant to be free of significant irregularities. Kerbs belong at the side of the road, not in the road!
> If the recent 'adjustments' with moving the centre line were logical, TFL should have also put double red lines down the side of this shoulder to mark this as the kerb and the _edge_ of the carriageway. Without marking the edge of the carriageway appropriately in this way, this section of road appears to be two lanes wide going west, inviting unwary cyclists to move across into the inside lane at busy times - just as I did.
> ...




I completely agree with the comments of Dannz following his accident on Great Dover Street on 21st October 2016. I note the council have since painted a solid white line on the road which runs the length of the layby (see picture below). This is helpful and should help to prevent future accidents. Is this an acceptance by the Council that this section of the road has been a danger to cyclists? I wonder why the Council did not add this solid white marking at the time they adjusted the centre markings on the road as advised in jonny jeez's post of 19th February 2016. If this had of been done then it may have prevented both Dannz's accident and my accident which I posted about on the 23rd August 2016. To fully remedy the problem the raised curb needs to be removed and the road/ layby resurfaced to leave an even surface and thus eliminate the hazzard. I understood from jonny's posting of 19th February 2016 that this work was in the pipeline!

.


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## User16625 (13 Nov 2017)

That pavement is wide as hell! Cycle on that. If anyone complains then just say you haven't paid road tax.


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## subaqua (13 Nov 2017)

Nobody commenting that there’s no dropped kerb so those vehicles shouldn’t have crossed the pavement to park ....


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## hhgolfer (13 Nov 2017)

Is anybody aware if there has been any successful claim against TFL for this dangerous hazzard?


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## Lonestar (13 Nov 2017)

subaqua said:


> Nobody commenting that there’s no dropped kerb so those vehicles shouldn’t have crossed the pavement to park ....



Not too keen on dropped kerbs.Went ar53 over front wheel on one a few years ago when yet another pedestrian was dithering yet again.

Then again probably useful on the CS 3 when there is a suicidal cyclist coming the other way.

I use very little of the CS 2 and the Mile End Road (a road I cycle commuted on for twenty five years) now so well done to all concerned for farking it up.


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## subaqua (13 Nov 2017)

Lonestar said:


> Not too keen on dropped kerbs.Went ar53 over front wheel on one a few years ago when yet another pedestrian was dithering yet again.
> 
> Then again probably useful on the CS 3 when there is a suicidal cyclist coming the other way.
> 
> I use very little of the CS 2 and the Mile End Road (a road I cycle commuted on for twenty five years) now so well done to all concerned for farking it up.




oooh you cant say that . the thought police won't like it ( NOT the Moderators - to clarify ) segregation is the way apparently . 

it really worked this morning at junction of White Horse lane , where if it hadn't been in place I would have been in primary and not got left hooked . because the van wouldn't have been where it was. 

in reducing one risk, creating a greter risk means a failure in the reduction of that risk .....


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