# Knowing Where We Stand



## Flying_Monkey (29 Apr 2011)

Sometimes we like to imagine that had things been different, had we taken cycling more seriously as a youngster, had we trained harder, then perhaps, just perhaps, we could have have been riding for Team X in the Tour de France. It could have been me! It's a nice thought. 

I was just perusing the results of the Tour of Brittany, a 2.2 ranked event, and I noticed a name I recognised - possibly the best cyclist I have known personally - a guy called James Moss, who is from the north-east of England. He's now riding for a respectable British team which is aiming at higher things, Endura, and he's 28 minutes behind on GC, amongst the also-rans (he's not last). I'm guessing I would be at least an hour behind him _every day_ if I was in peak condition. And he's probably a similar time behind the equivalent position in the Grand Tours.

So, no, I never could have been a contender. But it's nice to dream.


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## raindog (29 Apr 2011)

LOL - I never have dreamed that because although riding racing bikes for pleasure all my life has given me a decent level of fitness, I know I simply don't have the physique to be a top competitor. But I'm happy with that. I rode the Ventoux for my 60th birthday and I know blokes half my age here who can barely walk into the village for a loaf of bread. 

Nice to see Endura are still racing over here. Saw them at the spring stage races last year and followed their progress on their website throughout the season.


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## monnet (29 Apr 2011)

I've raced against and trained with some pretty high quality riders - alot of them Elites, some former professionals (though none that are household names). What always amazes me is that I can ride with them, even when they seem to be putting the hammer down. Which makes me think 'If I had devoted my 20s to racing a bike, instead of touring the globe and living a low budget rock and roll lifestyle, could I have been a contender?'

Two responses inevitably come to mind - why would I have sacrificed living the high life in Buenos Aires for a monastic life of training and racing in the rain in Yorkshire? and not long after that, 

these riders I speak of really do put the hammer down. At which point I'm grovelling in the gutter, trying to work out where the gears have gone on my bike and why they are all 50m up the road. And even if I can keep up, I'm on the limit when they decide to open out a sprint. 

I'm happy with my decision. I'd not have made it and I had an amazing time instead.


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## Dayvo (29 Apr 2011)

I beat all the boys in my road when we had a marathon round-the-block race when I was about 9. 

I heard a neighbour say that 'he looks like the next Eddy Merckx'. I believed him and was sure I was going to be a great cyclist. 

But I was too fat so I played rugby instead!


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## ColinJ (29 Apr 2011)

I had a great pair of lungs when I was a teenager. We once did an experiment in the physics lab using a large vertical u-tube water manometer to measure how hard we could blow. I blew the water clean out of it!

I often went swimming with my mates in Coventry's 50 metre pool. We used to chuck a coin across the width of the pool, dive in, swim underwater to get it and swim back with it, still underwater. My friends were struggling to do the two widths underwater. I bet them that I could drop a coin in at one end of the pool, swim to the far length of the pool and back underwater and pick the coin up before surfacing. I did manage it but almost blacked out from the effort ... 

A few years of smoking soon took the edge off my lung power though.

My dad was very fit as a young man. He had a bet with someone once that he could walk from Kenilworth to Banbury to buy an ice cream and walk back again within 12 hours. It was a 50 mile round trip and he did it with time to spare.

Boxing was his sport and he was pretty good at it. In fact, he won a silver medal in the British Schoolboy Boxing Championships before the war. 

I take after my dad physically, only I am about 4 inches taller than he was. I often used to wonder if I could have been any good at sport if I'd really tried but I'd settle now for being able to keep up with other CycleChat members on my forum rides instead of grovelling at the back on every climb.


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## PaulB (29 Apr 2011)

Not about the cycling but I ran a marathon time in the past that would, now make me a contender. At the time, I was a way off getting a start in the Olympic trials but things have gone backwards now as people get softer. I would have done ANYthing at the time to get a representative vest. It was the time of the Irish football team choosing people who were about as Irish as Benito Mussolini and playing them in the World Cup so I looked into my distant past to see if I could have represented ANY nation ANYWHERE in the world. No chance. My families on both sides go back to about the time of Noah, living in Britain. All of them, on both sides, as if it's possible to win a bigger lottery prize, in Liverpool. 

But I knew someone who had a bona-fide claim on running for Cyprus. I'm still married to her now. Her born name is Antoniades and her father is Cypriot. And she had a time better than one minute faster than the best Cypriot female runner over 5,000 metres that year. This was in 1991 and I was looking at every available way I could possibly increase my chances of running for Britain in the Barcelona Olympics. My wife had a walk-in so naturally, I suggested writing to the Cypriot AAA and claiming her place and her representative Olympic vest. She had less than zero interest. Our kids were young at the time and she reckoned she had no time at all to train to the extent it needed and had no ambition to be knocked out in an early round or be embarrassed in the actual event. 'Yes, but you'll be an Olympian and EVERYONE will remember that for the rest of your life', I said. That would have been my motivation but she had none of it. I had to respect her views on the situ and tried as best as I could to see things from that point of view. It was tricky but that was her decision so I stood by her on it. 

People's motivations; they're about as far apart as Saturn is from Sabden, aren't they?


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## lukesdad (30 Apr 2011)

In the first what is now the CRC series, there were about a dozen of us up front in a group. ( I was probably at my fittest ever) We were about 25ks in I was thinking to myself I can cope with this pace. Wrong ! A young scrote put the hammer down on a rock ridden climb he got about 250 metres clear, then a smart arse said are we going to do anything ? Do anything the rest of us were on the limit couldn t even answer! He looked around, got out of the saddle and caught the scrote before the top of the climb. They finnished 15 mins in front of the 3rd placed rider. I finnished 8 th a further 9 mins down. Sod a young Oli Beckensale and Nick Craig! I couldn t have done that at anytime in my life nope.

I did beat a young Nicole Cooke once, but she was only a junior then !


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## oldroadman (30 Apr 2011)

Today we have the simple tests - wattage, VO2max, lung capacity, heart rate at rest. Do well in all that then you probably have the engine. But what you can't measure (until race day) is bloody-minded determination, ability to REALLY suffer, will to win, motivation to train, general mental hardness, and important but under rated in UK amateurs, tactical nous. Case in point, not so long ago a young rider didn't make the cut into the GB set up as his numbers were down, and yet, as his coach/mentor noted, "How come he keeps winning races at home and in Belgium?". Said rider is now a pro (a proper one for a proper team, not one of the unregistered outfits here) and doing OK, valued as a class domestique. So whilst the numbers are important, they ain't everything.
Oldroadman still has a 44 pulse at rest, and 5 litre lungs. The rest is bu.....ered!


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## yello (30 Apr 2011)

I've never thought this way with regard to cycling but I know what is meant. I was more likely to think that way about football... though I didn't.

As a kid, I just rode a bike to and from places. I delivered newspapers. I went out with my friends; down to the beach, into the hills. Like kids you'll still see today, a bike was just a mode of transport, and fun. That continued into adolescence (though to a lesser extent). When I moved to London in my early 20's, it was just the quickest way across town... so still a mode of transport. The thought of racing never entered my tiny mind. It's never been my thing at all. 

My most vivid, and personal, experience of 'could never be a contender' came at university when I read a fellow student's essay. Her display of understanding of the subject matter and her ability to almost toy with it in an extremely dextorious and intelligent manner made me realise that I'd never be an academic (as I'd vague inclinations of). Sure, I was bright but this women was comparatively light years ahead. Just to rub it in, she changed disciplines for her masters. She felt her undergraduate studies weren't in line with her real interests!


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## ColinJ (30 Apr 2011)

yello said:


> My most vivid, and personal, experience of 'could never be a contender' came at university when I read a fellow student's essay. Her display of understanding of the subject matter and her ability to almost toy with it in an extremely dextorious and intelligent manner made me realise that I'd never be an academic (as I'd vague inclinations of). Sure, I was bright but this women was comparatively light years ahead. Just to rub it in, she changed disciplines for her masters. She felt her undergraduate studies weren't in line with her real interests!


I experienced the software writing equivalent of that! 

I needed to ask a fellow programmer a question so I walked over to his desk. I saw that he was in the middle of writing what looked like quite a complex module in C and I was just about to walk away when he turned and started talking to me while continuing to touch-type his software, sideways-on. 

I watched in stunned fascination as he talked to me about one technical topic, while an unrelated and intricate piece of code rapidly appeared on his screen. Without even glancing back at the source code, he compiled it and ran his program which proceeded to spew out exactly the results he wanted. When he finished talking to me, he swivelled round, scanned the results, muttered "Excellent!" and started work on his next piece of code ...


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## iAmiAdam (30 Apr 2011)

Being a Junior racer myself, I wouldn't be on a bike if it wasn't for racing. It isn't a mode of transport for me, it's practically my life. However, if I could train effectively without going on the road, or even the bike in some cases, I would. I'm lucky in that I've never been unfit and I'm a shortarse so when I plonked myself on an old road bike I realised I could be quite good at climbing. Nearly a year after taking cycling seriously, I wish that I could of got into cycling sooner. The plan is to advance through BC ranking, but god, if I'd got on a bike 6 years ago, who knows what the plan would be. 

But half of what got me into proper training is the romance of cycling. It's a sport of tradition and etiquette. This is something we can all feel and even take part in by just riding. But as with most sports, us mere mortals have to watch in awe as someone attacks up a climb and inevitably, this leads to thinking about the what ifs? 

So, I'm out training tomorrow, this thread has meant that I'm definitely going to give it a bit more tomorrow. Cheers guys.


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## montage (30 Apr 2011)

Pretty sure I could easily make pro if I tried, but just cba


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## Dave_1 (1 May 2011)

I took it seriously in my youth and managed around 50th place in final GC of the race you mention..I did the race two years on the trot and definitely don't harbour any delusions about being able to race at world tour level..I raced at 25.2 mph for 7 days, over around 800km and was still 45 minutes down on GC on a certain rider who 2 years later won the Giro!


Flying_Monkey said:


> Sometimes we like to imagine that had things been different, had we taken cycling more seriously as a youngster, had we trained harder, then perhaps, just perhaps, we could have have been riding for Team X in the Tour de France. It could have been me! It's a nice thought.
> 
> I was just perusing the results of the Tour of Brittany, a 2.2 ranked event, and I noticed a name I recognised - possibly the best cyclist I have known personally - a guy called James Moss, who is from the north-east of England. He's now riding for a respectable British team which is aiming at higher things, Endura, and he's 28 minutes behind on GC, amongst the also-rans (he's not last). I'm guessing I would be at least an hour behind him _every day_ if I was in peak condition. And he's probably a similar time behind the equivalent position in the Grand Tours.
> 
> So, no, I never could have been a contender. But it's nice to dream.


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## GrumpyGregry (4 May 2011)

different sport; early 80's, south west London, the head coach took me to one side and said "you are never going to make it into the 1st XV here, you're not hard enough, you're not big enough, you're not fast enough, you're not bright enough, you're not aggressive enough. It must be costing you a fortune to come and train with us twice a week, for what? To sit on the subs bench, and sometimes start, in the seconds. Don't waste your time, go home, find yourself a small club and be a big fish in a smaller pond."

Best sporting advise I was ever given. Being a contender surely only matters if you had the talent to be a champion; if not then taking part is what counts.


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## monnet (4 May 2011)

On a different sport, I remember watching Michael Owen score his first goal for England. He's a year younger than me (and my mates), which tells you we shouldn't really have been in the pub when we saw the goal. Anyway, at the end of the match one of the lads said, half joking, 'well, that's our England careers over.' I'll never forget the reaction. 10 17year olds laughed nervously and then took a swig of their beer as they contemplated that professional football was consigned to the bin marked 'failed childhood dreams'.

It was funny to see how even though we all knew we would never have even got close to being paid to play football, it took someone to voice it before we all accepted it. Of course, while Mickey Owen was banging them in for fun we were in the pub, which, alongside lack of natural talent, may go some way to explaining our lack of footballing prowess.


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## beastie (5 May 2011)

Assume that an individual has the physical attributes required for their chosen discipline- for instance tall enough for basketball, then there is a magic number of time required to achieve excellence. Lots of training and PURPOSEFUL practice. About 10000 hours over 10 years seems to do it. This topic has been well researched and the general consensus is that talent is almost inconsequential, it is the development of expertise that counts. Of course without great mental strength and inner motivation then 20 hours a week of intelligent and purposeful training is unlikely. So you need those. And it helps if you start around 8 to 12 years old or else you are playing catch up. 

Anyone racked up 10000 hours training before they were twentyish?


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## PaulB (5 May 2011)

beastie said:


> This topic has been well researched and the general consensus is that talent is almost inconsequential, it is the development of expertise that counts.



I'd say Usain Bolt had plenty of talent, wouldn't you? And Michael Johnson. And Ian Rush and Michael Owen tended not to do too much in the way of training relying primarily on instinct and talent. That seemed to work.


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## yello (5 May 2011)

beastie said:


> This topic has been well researched and the general consensus is that talent is *almost* inconsequential, it is the development of expertise that counts.



I'd accept that. I'd expect it to be true of the great majority of players (used in the general sense) in any discipline, be they TdF domestiques, prem footballers, chorus line, backing singers, etc etc etc etc

the exceptions prove the rule (whatever that means)... or in the bold, the *"almost*" bit

I reckon for all the cannon fodder also rans (harsh, I know!), there are the very very few genuine geniuses. Those that have a rare and exceptional talent. No doubt that they work hard too to develop themselves but they started a cut above to begin with.

I'm sure John Terry was a talented footballer at school, and worked damned hard to be where he is today, but Lionel Messi is that rare gifted genius that makes it all look ludicrously natural.


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## gb155 (5 May 2011)

Good Topic

If I had the desire I have now, when I was a kid and didnt pile the weight on etc, then I'd like to dream that I could have at least won one race, somewhere.


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## vorsprung (5 May 2011)

beastie said:


> .. there is a magic number of time required to achieve excellence. Lots of training and PURPOSEFUL practice. About 10000 hours over 10 years seems to do it. This topic has been well researched and the general consensus is that talent is almost inconsequential...



This isn't my reading of how selection of Pro riders happens. It's not just a question of having a pair of legs and being a "good" bike rider. You need a freakishly good oxygen capacity and the ability to develop an insane level of aerobic fitness. This is a genetic requirement.

I could train for the 10000 hours (if I was a suitable age) and never get to the vo2 max score of 80+. Whereas some people have this straight off the sofa. This explains why if you look at a top riders biog they sometimes mention their first 10 mile time trial ( particularly if they are a UK based amateur ) and their time is usually in the low 20 minutes, which most people would train for years and years to get to.

Talent is not "inconsequential". Natural talent and training commitment are both needed


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## ColinJ (5 May 2011)

vorsprung said:


> I could train for the 10000 hours (if I was a suitable age) and never get to the vo2 max score of 80+. Whereas some people have this straight off the sofa.


A friend of mine used to be sports-mad. He was in all the teams at school. When he left school, he got a job as a factory labourer doing heavy manual work which made him strong. He commuted to work by bike. He was pretty fit.

His younger brother, on the other hand, did bugger-all exercise. My mate said that despite that, his brother could give him a 100 metres start in a 400 metre race and still beat him. Natural athletic talent!


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## montage (5 May 2011)

gb155 said:


> Good Topic
> 
> If I had the desire I have now, when I was a kid and didnt pile the weight on etc, then I'd like to dream that I could have at least won one race, somewhere.



Have you started time trialling/road racing yet? Never too late


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## GrumpyGregry (5 May 2011)

gb155 said:


> Good Topic
> 
> If I had the desire I have now, when I was a kid and didnt pile the weight on etc, then I'd like to dream that I could have at least won one race, somewhere.



Age is just a number. you are never to old to win a race. somewhere.


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## GrumpyGregry (5 May 2011)

vorsprung said:


> Talent is not "inconsequential". Natural talent and training commitment are both needed



as is, I'd argue, opportunity. For all i know I may have been as good a cricketer as my uncle who played for minor counties north but I went to school(s) and lived in communites where cricket wasn't played.

there are probably thousands of individuals with the genes and talent to excel in thousands of sports who just never get the chance to try 'their' sport.


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## Flying_Monkey (5 May 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Age is just a number. you are never to old to win a race. somewhere.



This is true. I won my first 10k running race this year at the age of 38, having trained hard over the winter - so hard in fact that I got a stress fracture in my foot!


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## beastie (5 May 2011)

PaulB said:


> I'd say Usain Bolt had plenty of talent, wouldn't you? And Michael Johnson. And Ian Rush and Michael Owen tended not to do too much in the way of training relying primarily on instinct and talent. That seemed to work.


Granted there are people who have freshly stunning natural ability like Usain Bolt. I would point out that Michael Johnson was known as one of the hardest trainers around, and also one of the best at aiming said training correctly. A certain amount of natural athletic ability married to a huge level of training and a burning desire to improve. 

Jack Nicholas said that it wasn't the ability to make great shots the secret of his success but that he hit less bad shots than everybody else. This he attributed to his huge appetite for practise, and that every single shot he hit in training had a specific goal, training which he designed to make him continually strive for the next level in consistency.

He believes it was hard work not any god given ability which led him to succeed. 

Tiger Woods, David Beckham, Roger Federal all worked there asses off. 

10000 hours of correct training will bot guarantee you of being the best but there are very few top top performers of any kind, sporting or academic, who got there on talent and not graft.


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## beastie (5 May 2011)

Roger Federal being the predictive cousin of his tennis playing master


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## Brahan (5 May 2011)

beastie said:


> Granted there are people who have freshly stunning natural ability like Usain Bolt. I would point out that Michael Johnson was known as one of the hardest trainers around, and also one of the best at aiming said training correctly. A certain amount of natural athletic ability married to a huge level of training and a burning desire to improve.



I watched a doc about Johnson and his coaching methods. With slow motion video he took Bolt's running style totally apart and highlighted what he considered glaring flaws in his technique. Very interesting stuff. Bolt's leg angle in his first few strides from the start were of particular interest. Johnson reckoned that Bolt had a 'long' way to go before acheiving his full potential. Scary huh? 

EDIT: I should add that the video in question was of his 100 metre world record!


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## Angelfishsolo (5 May 2011)

I am a far better Mountain Biker in my dreams. I can do all the fancy jumps, hops, track-stands, et al that I can't do in the waking world.

The thing I do think about though is Triathlon. I used to be a County Standard runner and a fair distance swimmer (not fast) in my youth. If I had got into cycling as well who knows. Far too late now unless I manage to loose about 4 stone


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## Angelfishsolo (5 May 2011)

The corollary to that is that if a naturally talented person is de-constructed they can end up loosing whatever it is that gives them the edge.


Brahan said:


> I watched a doc about Johnson and his coaching methods. With slow motion video he took Bolt's running style totally apart and highlighted what he considered glaring flaws in his technique. Very interesting stuff. Bolt's leg angle in his first few strides from the start were of particular interest. Johnson reckoned that Bolt had a 'long' way to go before acheiving his full potential. Scary huh?
> 
> EDIT: I should add that the video in question was of his 100 metre world record!


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## yello (5 May 2011)

...or the talented individual that couldn't be arsed with all the training required and gave it up.

I'm sure we've all known people at school (or wherever) that were talented but didn't really care. I know one of the guys in my football team in my early teens had amazing natural talent but rarely turned up for training. It was me that made the senior team whilst he was pubbing with his mates, yet he was undoubtedly the natural.


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## snailracer (5 May 2011)

Brahan said:


> I watched a doc about Johnson and his coaching methods. With slow motion video he took Bolt's running style totally apart and highlighted what he considered glaring flaws in his technique. Very interesting stuff. Bolt's leg angle in his first few strides from the start were of particular interest. Johnson reckoned that Bolt had a 'long' way to go before acheiving his full potential. Scary huh?
> 
> EDIT: I should add that the video in question was of his 100 metre world record!


I am a bit surprised to hear Johnson give such technical advice - his own running style was freakishly unusual - short, rapid strides, whereas every other sprinter used long strides. His build was also much heavier than his peers. I can't see how his own experience can translate to another runner (in the technical sense).


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## Kirstie (8 May 2011)

The only thing I ever showed any aptitude in was freeride mountain biking. A few years ago I was riding lines in Canada that only a few elite women who did the sport had ever attempted and cleaned. I realised then that if I practiced a lot I would be really good, but there aren't the facilities in the UK really. I also realised that it's a death defying adrenaline sport and it doesn't always go hand in hand with longevity! I won an xc mtb race once, which was a total fluke. I never really had a 'could have been a contender' moment with any of it though. I keep the achievement for my work and everything else is just fun.


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## User482 (10 May 2011)

I did the Forest of Dean Spring Classic recently. 90 very hilly miles (we clocked 900 feet of climbing). I clocked 6.41, which I was pretty pleased with considering my total lack of preparation. That placed me about 215th out of 600 riders.

Putting me in my place was a long-retired ex-pro (Steven Rooks, who came 2nd in the 1988 TdF) who did it in 4.14! Over 30 minutes quicker than the next quickest rider.

Not bad for a guy who must be pushing 50 at least...


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## ColinJ (10 May 2011)

User482 said:


> I did the Forest of Dean Spring Classic recently. 90 very hilly miles (we clocked 900 feet of climbing). I clocked 6.41, which I was pretty pleased with considering my total lack of preparation. That placed me about 215th out of 600 riders.
> 
> Putting me in my place was a long-retired ex-pro (Steven Rooks, who came 2nd in the 1988 TdF) who did it in 4.14! Over 30 minutes quicker than the next quickest rider.
> 
> Not bad for a guy who must be pushing 50 at least...


I reckon you've left a '0' off the climbing figure! 

That looks like a really nice event. The kind of thing I'd like to do if fit. Oh, and a good result by you!

I saw ex-pro Dave LLoyd go past me like a train on the similarly hilly Pendle Pedal sportive a few years back. He was riding with a younger rider and they finished first and second. I think Lloyd was nearer 60 at the time - very impressive!


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## User482 (10 May 2011)

Err, yeah, 900 feet isn't very impressive! 
FoD ride was terrific - my first Sportive. Well organised, and having energy drinks and bars at the stops was a nice touch. I needed all the help I could get for Symmond's Yat (25% gradient, apparently) near the end...

I remember John North riding for the Karrimor MTB team back in the 90s. He used to kick the backsides of riders half his age.


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## mudplugger (10 May 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I was just perusing the results of the Tour of Brittany, a 2.2 ranked event, and I noticed a name I recognised - possibly the best cyclist I have known personally - a guy called James Moss, who is from the north-east of England. He's now riding for a respectable British team which is aiming at higher things, Endura, and he's 28 minutes behind on GC, amongst the also-rans (he's not last). I'm guessing I would be at least an hour behind him _every day_ if I was in peak condition. And he's probably a similar time behind the equivalent position in the Grand Tours.




Just looking at the results oversimplifies the facts. Based on the Endura website it is clear that early in the race they were in yellow with Reni Madri (rider eventually finished second). Consequently, Moss will have been given a job and once done would have sat up each day to save his legs for the next days job. Not surprisingly he would loose a lot of time. If he were riding for himself he would probably not have lost anything like that much time....which means you would not have lost an hour either  

Good to see Endura doing well on the Continent and a great win in the Lincoln GP yesterday


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## asterix (11 May 2011)

There was never any doubt in my mind. I knew my place; I was _not_ a contender. Looking at my school photos once when clearing out the loft I was surprised to be reminded how small I was at around 14 compared to my peers. A year or two later I had grown like a weed although I remained at 10.5 stone for quite while. In my late 20's I got to 13.5 stone which is my normal, acceptable weight.

A school friend was an exceptional runner, both sprints and medium distance. Physically he had matured far quicker than I did.


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## oldroadman (11 May 2011)

Nothing to do with size. The bike is a great leveller. If you have the VO2 capacity, big lungs, strong heart, and massive dedication/determination, then it's possible to get to a decent standard. Plus of course, top end riders are thin, and 13.5 stones would be heavy unless you are at least 6'4". See Magnus Backstedt..


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## asterix (11 May 2011)

You mean I _coulda_ been a contender  I coulda had class?


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## fossyant (11 May 2011)

We had a few very good riders in our club, but the difference in training, in being good, and national class, was huge.

Very difficult if you want a half normal life or a 'not normal life'.

One of my club mates was Manchester BAR (Best All Rounder) in TT's and he was awesome, he was also impossible to draft on club runs as he was about 5' 2" and tiny.... I'm only 5'9"... but he was a busy professional, and work/family eventually took over. Another club mate was a good TT'er and top hill climber, but did part time jobs and cycled with many of the pro guys in the 80's - loads of miles ... he's still riding a bike these days, but certainly isn't doing much now.

I realised the difference was training.... (oh and being a 'natural' - e.g. genetics).

I've raced against Chris Boardman in loads of TT's...... yeh I (and most others) looked like I'd had a cafe stop in the middle), and a few with Graham O'bree - yes his bike looked daft, but oh my was he fast.

At least I'm still riding.  And love it !


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## Brahan (12 May 2011)

snailracer said:


> I am a bit surprised to hear Johnson give such technical advice - his own running style was freakishly unusual - short, rapid strides, whereas every other sprinter used long strides. His build was also much heavier than his peers. I can't see how his own experience can translate to another runner *(in the technical sense)*.



That's the part that will surprise you the most then, because from what I can recall, the whole point of his training school is about dedication to technique. A 'Things don't have to be bad before they can be better.' type of thing. I've tried to find it on youtube but so far have failed. Its got a clip of Bolt as a teen and although he has won a 200m by a country mile you can actually see how bad his running style is.....going by the technical evidence provided by Johnson. It was a good watch.

EDIT: But onto the 'Contender' issue. I've never been able to get to the top of the tree in any sports I've competed in throughout the years. Did judo as a youngster and was a good club player but would get it handed to me at any comps. I remember getting flattened by a guy who went on to compete for Scotland and at the time he was holding me on the ground I thought he was actually trying to kill me 

Then I got into fencing and rugby. I got really good at fencing quite quickly but couldn't go to the competitions to get better. The kids who were clearing up at comps were getting coached at a totally different standard and although my team cleared up in the Scottish Schools comp we didn't have the cash to travel too far. Meh. Fencing is still a passion and I'd like to return to it at some point.

Loved rugby, not fast enough to be a back and not really big enough for the front row but played No.3 for a few years eventually getting the speed up to be allowed into the back row, No.7. Had 10 years out of the game and got invited to play Edenbridge. Here I quickly realised that whilst I was drinking into my late 20s the 19-23 year old competition had been working out. I did a couple of seasons but had a car crash (which led me to cycling) and had to give it up.

Cycling now for 3 years and loving every turn of the pedals. I try hard but will never be that good. The point with actually being a contender is the desire to do it. My mate who I used to cycle with as a kid, Mike Zagorski, lives in Hawaii and has cycled all his life. It's all he has wanted to do and although he's not at the top of the tree he has won Masters Track competitions in the states. USA Nat Champ and a prolific TT champ too! He has the will and determination that drives those who dwell at or near the top. He hasn't dabbled in sports like most of us do, he has gone for it big time, put relationships to breaking point because of his will to be a success at what he wants to do. Our club fast guy is 47 and last year came 4th in the Nat 50. Missed the podium by 11 seconds. He rides his bike every day, while all his mates got into drinking he just carried on riding but for some reason never went full time. I think he could have done it too but he's happy to do what he does, perhaps he never had the desire....


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## cyberknight (14 May 2011)

ColinJ said:


> I reckon you've left a '0' off the climbing figure!



haha 

I do close to 450 feet of climbing in the last 5 miles of my commute .

1st sportive next sunday so i cannot pass judgement on times etc etc .
I have no idea if i was a contender at anything, won a few martial art semi contact competitions and the head of my style said i had fast hands but i was into too many sports at the time and then injury and the need to support a family came 1st.


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## PaulB (15 May 2011)

I was a contender this very morning. It was very pleasing. I was unexpectedly in a HUGE lead in a local race. It was great to have people taking my photograph and people lining the course yelling out encouragement and a group of girls had some klaxons and were giving it Laldie with them as I passed. It was a great feeling to be in such an overwhelming lead. Apart from one or two things that didn't feel particularly....right. I was in a huge lead in a race that A) I didn't even know was on. B) I hadn't bothered with the 20 laps of the swimming pool as a pre-ride event-type-of-thing. C) I wasn't wearing a number..well I wouldn't be; I wasn't actually IN this race (but it looked to everyone as though I was so I kind of 'milked' it!) D) The course marshals weren't bothering noting anything down on their forms as I passed them. 

So there we are. The last bit of my early morning ride was on a local and very familiar route to me that by co-incidence happened to correspond to about eight miles of the Pendle Triathlon at around the time the first guys would have emerged from the pool and jumped on their bikes. For a while, I felt chuffed that the bike I was on and the gear I wore did _kind of _look like the sort of stuff a triathlete might employ and a few did think I was the leading competitor. Which was nice.


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## ACS (15 May 2011)

I started to run to lose the weight and discovered I was better that average at the longer distances, early finisher but never good enough to be a winner. 

Having been a county level swimmer in my youth, again better than average but never good enough to stand on the top step, I took up triathlon in the early 80's and was not surprised to discover that I was better than average. Loved the sport with its 'every finisher is a winner attitude' I started to get top 5 places in local and some regional events but I was never quite good enough. 

Change of jobs meant that I lost the time to train twice a day so I decided to concentrate on time trialing (to many running injuries). Always creditable and competitive but if truth be told I was always destined to be upper mid table.

Now many years older the fire is now longer lit, but the pilot light still burns brightly and having discovered the secret world of Audax with its 'every finisher is a winner' ethos riding my bike for fitness and weigh management is slowly drifting towards training.


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## Flying_Monkey (15 May 2011)

mudplugger said:


> Just looking at the results oversimplifies the facts. Based on the Endura website it is clear that early in the race they were in yellow with Reni Madri (rider eventually finished second). Consequently, Moss will have been given a job and once done would have sat up each day to save his legs for the next days job. Not surprisingly he would loose a lot of time. If he were riding for himself he would probably not have lost anything like that much time....which means you would not have lost an hour either



Yeah, that's true in terms of their tactics. But I probably still would have been an hour behind him even if he was sitting up!


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## Fiona N (15 May 2011)

A few years ago I had a really interesting chat with an American who was one of the first to come across the pond to ride as a pro in Europe ('70s). He was from a wealthy family so didn't need to really earn a living and he was happy to work as a domestique - by his own admission he was a 'mediocre journeyman' pro. But he still lives in Italy and still rides hard but like he says, all those who beat him as pros are now too beat up to race whereas 'for my age group, I'm a God' was how he summed it up. It seems like instead of achieving a high peak of excellence as a young athlete which he quickly fell from as he aged, he just achieved a plateau which he's still pretty much staying on. It's also obvious he always really enjoyed riding and racing - not needing the money meant he never had to win and maybe that was why he was never up with the best. But, on the other hand, riding like he was at about 60, when I met him on a Gran Fondo in Tuscany/Umbria, it's equally clear that the love of racing is still there - just getting out and riding his bike isn't enough. 

Maybe it's a trade off - if you excel as a youngster, you risk burning out whereas those who don't hit the peaks early can maintain there form much better into the Masters and Vets years. It's well known that club level athletes have greater longevity than elite athletes.


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## PaulB (15 May 2011)

Fiona N said:


> if you excel as a youngster, you risk burning out whereas those who don't hit the peaks early can maintain there form much better into the Masters and Vets years. It's well known that club level athletes have greater longevity than elite athletes.



The light that burns twice as brightly, burns half as long.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 May 2011)

PaulB said:


> The light that burns twice as brightly, burns half as long.



"And you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy..."


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## iLB (16 May 2011)

over Easter I picked up 33 BC points from 4 races, including a win in a 65 mile cat3/4 road race and did a 22.34 for a '10' on my un adapted road bike... suggesting I'm not hopeless

after I've finished my exams at uni I hope to pick up the remaining 17 points to get my 2nd cat licence from mid week crits, and enter and try to finish some e/1/2/3 road races for the experience/a damn good kicking- sigma sport on the front uh oh...







should have a better idea where I stand after that


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## lukesdad (16 May 2011)

iLB said:


> over Easter I picked up 33 BC points from 4 races, including a win in a 65 mile cat3/4 road race and did a 22.34 for a '10' on my un adapted road bike... suggesting I'm not hopeless
> 
> after I've finished my exams at uni I hope to pick up the remaining 17 points to get my 2nd cat licence from mid week crits, and enter and try to finish some e/1/2/3 road races for the experience/a damn good kicking- sigma sport on the front uh oh...
> 
> ...


Cracking effort. I'd suggest you re not hopelss either.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 May 2011)

iLB said:


> should have a better idea where I stand after that



Ya see, you've still got the time to be a contender. For most of us, it's dreaming of what might have been... 

But then again, as Fiona says, it's never entirely too late. I've discovered this year that 1. I can swim, and not only that I can swim well enough to be competitive in triathlon and in master's level swimming (if I wanted to be); and 2. I can win running races (won my first 10k this year at the age of 38). Again tri seems to be the answer, particularly because, as a long time cyclist, I have the kind of endurance most of the young kids can only dream about.


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## MLC (16 May 2011)

Not bike related but only claim to fame was being placed 6th in the UK U15 finals at 800m at Crystal Palace. This would have been mid eighties

I ran a 2.08. My school then went into cricket season and all running training stopped. My training consisted of running around the block a couple of times as fast as I could go and that was it (an no I didn't walk 28 miles to the nearest school in the snow even during the summer)

I often felt that had I had proper training perhaps I could have gone further but who knows anyways I enjoyed the fags and beer between then and now.


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## Globalti (17 May 2011)

Fascinating thread; one of the best for a long time.

I only came back to cycling when I settled down 23 years ago. Did 21 years of mountain biking always managing to be in the top 30-40% in trailquest events like Polaris with my brother. Nearest we came to a respectable placing was 13th in about 200 senior teams, but that was thanks to good planning and route finding, not fitness.

My brother is 7 years younger than me but we were always close in strength and speed.

Got a road bike two years ago and now I ride regularly with a bloke about my age but he is always faster up hills, he simply has that extra 5% that I will never have; I just have to accept that his physiology is different to mine. The only time I have ever beaten him was when he had a hangover.


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## Foghat (18 May 2011)

Interesting thread.

Watching the Tour of California just now, Matt Rendell described Jeremy Hunt as a specialist at riding in the wind.

This casts my mind back some years ago, to when I was in a race where Jeremy Hunt entered on the line, riding for Banesto. Initially when I saw the Banesto jersey impressively roaring up the outside of (and past) the peloton on a climb, I thought it was just a wannabe briefly gatecrashing the race in their shop-bought continental trade team kit, and thought to myself "that's all very well, but we'll be doing this speed for the next 80 miles, now go home sonny". Then I got behind the imposter, saw the definition in the legs, and realised immediately it must be a bona fide Banesto representative......and of course it became immediately apparent that it was Hunt. Anyway, later on in the race, during a tough section in the wind, wind specialist Hunt was coming back down the line, looking rather the worse for wear, and he turned to me with an imploring "please let me in" look, so I, feeling fine and accommodating, promptly obliged, and I realised maybe the difference was slightly less enormous than one might imagine after all.


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## Browser (21 May 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> "And you have burned so very, very brightly, Roy..."


"I've done..........questionable things"
Blade Runner, still a fave!
"I've......seen things you people wouldn't believe, hnnh"

Many people tell me how good I am as an amateur actor, would i like it as a profession? No, 'cos I'd be ordinary in a field of exceptionals.
To be able to MMA weld a vertical run on crappy steel in poor conditions like a bloke called Frank Robinson I used to work with could, that I'd love


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## srw (21 May 2011)

I harbour fantasies, which I will almost certainly never meet, of being fit enough to attempt a distance cycling record. Quite a lot of the official records are not yet claimed, and some of the times almost look approachable. The target time for LeJog for a mixed tandem tricycle team, for instance works out at an average of only just over 11mph. (875 miles over 3 days and 7 hours). The female tandem bicycle team record is even softer - 3 days and 12 hours. Or there are shorter routes - quite a lot requiring "only" 20mph on average.

http://www.rra.org.uk/


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