# Visiting Thorn - Thinking of a New Raven - Any tips



## Skipper9999 (28 Jan 2013)

Just getting round to buying a new bike and have a fancy for a "New Thorn Raven". 
I am visiting them on Monday 4th Feb 2013. *Any Tips??*
I plan to do the LEJOG (mainly B&B's or YHA) and wondered if any members could share some tips. 


Is it the right bike? 
What goodies should I add (dynamo ??)
Luggage ( or use existing TOPEAK that I have )
Tyres?
Extra strong Rims (Andra 30 CSS 32h costing £85 extra ) worth it?
 
Any other suggestions/ bikes would be helpful in me decision making, I am quite new to this field having only completed Hadrian’s Cycle Way.


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## Brains (28 Jan 2013)

No idea, but I bought my Thorn Nomad (old stylee) over a decade and 22,000 miles ago, it's been to a dozen countries since and I still think it's the best touring bike available (other than possibly the old style Thorn Xpd)


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## MacB (28 Jan 2013)

unless I needed heavy duty touring potential then of the Thorn offerings I like the Mercury Rohloff best


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## ufkacbln (28 Jan 2013)

Go with an open mind.... and enjoy yourself

They offer a good range of routes to try, so make use of them to assess the machine and its suitability for your riding style, they will also advise on what you can choose.

My only advice is not to get carried away, there is little of the additional stuff that cannot be retro fitted.

Their advice is very good - My wife wanted a Rohlof geared bike, so we went down to try one.

They gave her one that was far too small........ but insisted that it was the right choice. After 5 minutes we had to agree, a smaller frame than she was used to, but it was the most comfortable bike she had ridden

The second problem was giving me one to ride as well. It was a boring ride, solid, dependable, predictable and just what I wanted in a touring bike......... so we left with a Raven Tour and a Nomad... pictured her on the Great Glen







I would not now buy a non-Rohloff bike, and we have two Rohloff recumbent trikes, the two Thorns and a Birdy Grey


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## Wowbagger (28 Jan 2013)

We have three Rohloff-equipped Thorns, two Raven Sport Tours and a Discovery Tandem. I have yet to experience better touring bikes.

My bike looks ridiculously small for me but it's the most comfortable bike ever: I bought it specifically with carbon bars and seatpost to ward off as much vibration as possible. I bought it shortly after being diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis so I wanted an "orthopaedic" bike. Yesterday I passed 26000 miles on it and it's been pretty well faultless in that time. I've rebuilt the wheels, changed the tyres, done all sorts of maintenance apart from the BB bearings and headset, which are both as smooth as they were when I bought the bike 7 years ago. I don't think they do the Sport Tour frame any more. It looks as though the Mercury is filling the gap.

We've had trouble with our tandem in that we have broken 3 Rohloffs through spoked breaking chunks off the flange. However, they wheel is now spoked differently (I like to take the credit for this as I mentioned it to Robin Thorn as an improvement, but at the time he poopoohed it) and they have fitted a reinforcing ring around the flange. For the past 3 years we have had no problems with it.


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## vernon (28 Jan 2013)

You might like to consider a Woodrup Cycles' Chimera.

I'd been deliberating on becoming the owner of a Rohloff hubbed bike and had become more receptive to the notion when I had a long chat with a couple of Raven owners in Switzerland. Then I had a chat with a dutch Rohloff belt driven bike and my interest was increased.

Steve Woodrup invited me to inspect his prototype belt driven bike in his shop's inner sanctum and I immediately started plotting on how to become an owner. The Chimera does have links to Thorn cycles in that Woodrup Cycles frame builder was responsible for the bespoke bike sold by Thorn until they dropped the bespoke option.

Anyhow here's what Woodrup Rohloff hubbed bikes look like:

My bike nearing completion at Woodrup Cycles





My bike out and about in Selby





A Woodrup chain driven Rohloff bike





I've done 1500 miles on my Chimera and so far all I've had to do is adjust the front brake. The belt is unstretched and needs no adjustment or lubrication. The ride is very comfortable and I've ridden 100km audaxes and toured along the Danube with it fully laden. I have no connection with Woodrup Cycles other than being a very satisfied customer.

Woodrup Cycles are in Kirkstall, Leeds. Their web site is here.


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## vernon (28 Jan 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Is it the right bike?
> What goodies should I add (dynamo ??)
> Luggage ( or use existing TOPEAK that I have )
> Tyres?
> ...


 
The choice of bike is yours alone to make. The Raven will meet your needs and so will many other alternatives.

A dynamo is useful. I use mine to charge my mobile phone as well as provide lighting.

Wear your existing luggage out first before replacing it.

Tyres - I used Specialized Nimbus Armadillos and can not fault them.

Extra strong rims - unless you are very porky or plan to do some rough stuff off road cycling there's no need for heavy duty rimes.


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## Wowbagger (28 Jan 2013)

I'm very interested in your belt drive, Vernon. Rohloffs invariably leak a little oil (I think Thorn describe it as a "mist") and I wonder what this oil will do to a belt over time.


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## vernon (28 Jan 2013)

Wowbagger said:


> I'm very interested in your belt drive, Vernon. Rohloffs invariably leak a little oil (I think Thorn describe it as a "mist") and I wonder what this oil will do to a belt over time.


 
You'll be able to see it in the flesh on the York-Hull FNRttC.

There's no sign of any oil mist as yet.


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## dellzeqq (29 Jan 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Just getting round to buying a new bike and have a fancy for a "New Thorn Raven".
> I am visiting them on Monday 4th Feb 2013. *Any Tips??*
> I plan to do the LEJOG (mainly B&B's or YHA) and wondered if any members could share some tips.
> 
> ...


Any tips? Don't get in to an argument with Robin Thorn
Is it the right bike? For the Himalayas, maybe. For roads in the UK - never
What goodies should you add? None
Luggage? No
Tyres? Probably
Extra Strong Rims? Not unless you're an enormously heavy stunt rider.


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## Wowbagger (29 Jan 2013)

I have the tungsten carbide rims on mine. I understand they have been discontinued.

I found that the standard rims lasted about 10000 miles. I would imagine that would be less in a hillier area - I live in Essex. I rebuilt the wheels with the Rigida Andra Carbide. It looks to me as though they will never wear out. Having said that, we broke one on our tandem. I think I know where it was too: descending at >40mph, we left bright sunshine and found ourselves in woodland and I was riding blind momentarily. We hit a bit of uneven road surface and were lucky to stay on the bike.


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## Yellow7 (29 Jan 2013)

Mornin’ Skipper. Here's my tuppence worth;

1. DRT MT19 rims - Still good after 17,000 miles.
2. Brooks sprung saddle, like the B67 - dampens out bumps without the need for suspension.
3. Schmidt dynamo - useful on long remote tours for battery charging (having made different chargers for different cell sizes / chemistries), so this depends on where you intend to go.
4. Tyres; Schwalbe Marathon Plus or Marathon Plus _Tour._
5. Having seen Thorn's racks I’d suggest the ones Surly make, expensive but strong & the front one also has the top rack.
 Mark.


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## P.H (29 Jan 2013)

I had a Thorn Raven for seven years, I found it pretty much perfect as a fully loaded tourer, but never really liked it unloaded, hard to define why, but other than it's reliability it never felt better to ride than the £300 hybrid it replaced. Despite that, it covered 30,000+ comutting miles without a hiccup, so basically paid for itself several times over so I've no complaints.
Three years ago I moved the hub into a lighter 700c wheeled bike, which is a lot better unloaded and not quite as stable loaded, as the vast majority of my miles isn't loaded it's the right way round for me.
If you're not planning on camping with four panniers, I'd suggest one of the other models might suit you better. Maybe test ride a few and Thorn's 100 day money back deal takes most of the risk out of choosing.
Upgrades - I have carbide rims on two bikes and they've proved to be the economical option in the long run, though mine are the lighter Grizzlys. Hub dynamo, if you're likely to use it get it now.


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## Skipper9999 (29 Jan 2013)

24 hours as a newbie I am well impressed by all the replies ..

Thanks to you all , keep them coming .

Counting down the days !!! Will I won't I ??


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## srw (30 Jan 2013)

Wowbagger said:


> I'm very interested in your belt drive, Vernon. Rohloffs invariably leak a little oil (I think Thorn describe it as a "mist") and I wonder what this oil will do to a belt over time.


 They do? I've never noticed. Compared with the amount of greasy crud that any bike inevitably attracts, I suspect a little light misting is always going to be minor.


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## ankaradan (30 Jan 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Just getting round to buying a new bike and have a fancy for a "New Thorn Raven".
> I am visiting them on Monday 4th Feb 2013. *Any Tips??*
> I plan to do the LEJOG (mainly B&B's or YHA) and wondered if any members could share some tips.
> 
> ...


Yes, me too. I'm attracted by the idea of the low maintenance of the rohloff hub; I seem to be forever fiddling with my deraileurs to get them to change smoothly; mind you, they are 18 years old. I also want something that will stand up to touring on the rough back roads here. My main concern is what it would be like to ride unladen.


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## vernon (30 Jan 2013)

ankaradan said:


> Yes, me too. I'm attracted by the idea of the low maintenance of the rohloff hub; I seem to be forever fiddling with my deraileurs to get them to change smoothly; mind you, they are 18 years old. I also want something that will stand up to touring on the rough back roads here. My main concern is what it would be like to ride unladen.


 
I can not comment upon the Thorn but my Woodrup Chimera is a similar bike. The Rohloff hub and belt drive combination has been a fit and forget experience. I've not had to do anything to the transmission in the past 1400 miles of fully laden touring, audaxing and general leisure riding. Unladen my bike is rock steady and is not unbalanced by potholes and rough surfaces which inspires confidence.


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## ufkacbln (30 Jan 2013)

The problem with my Thorn Nomad is that it is boring!

It just travels, no quirks in handling, no problems with shimmy when overladen at the front, predictable handling when laden or just a bar bag

In other words just what I wanted


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## mickle (30 Jan 2013)

I've a mental list longer than my arm of bikes I'd buy before a Thorn - and we've got a Thorn Tandem in the garage. I've seen a couple of their bikes which I'd have taken back to the shop for a refund so poor was the quality of frame assembly. On a frame which one of my customers bought they'd used a 2inch nail as a pump peg bridge. He wasn't happy. And our tandem long ago lost most of the powder coating from around both bottom brackets.

With so many outstanding UK frame builders - from Argos to Woodrup, you're spoilt for choice. And that's before you start looking around at some of the beauties coming out of foreign companies like Tout Terrain and Norwid.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (30 Jan 2013)

We have 2 Rohloff equipped Thorn Nomad mk II's here. love them, reliable, rock steady, overkill for the UK, yes, but we purchased them for a world tour and that is what they are suitable for.

We went with the Andora CSS rims for the stopping powder, nothing to do with strength, though we needed that as well. The rim upgrade is worth over penny in my book and the stopping ability is phenomanal, best I have on any bike without disc brakes.
The Rohloff hubs have been (almost) faultless and so much easier to look after than derailuer gears. We love the fact that you can change gear whilst stationary and it happens, and that all the gears are sequential. Parts last much longer (£4.49 chain lasted 14,500km for example)
We got the SON 28 dynamo's at the time of purchase along with the a light and went with the Thorn racks (if you don't go with the Thorn racks you need a spacer or converter or something for the different sized mounting holes IIRC - something to ask about if you don't get the Thorn racks - we needed super strong for a world tour and the racks are exactly what we wanted and needed, can't fault them).

Cubebelin is spot on when he says they are 'boring'... they have been almost completely 100% reliable (we had a few spoke breakages on one rear wheel early on in our tour, and some water issues freezing the gear changer later on due to us failing to see a hole in a cable sheath than caused cables to rust & freeze in freezing weather) but they are stunning bikes and everytime we get back on them, we know why we enjoyed our (aborted) world tour so much, comfort, handling, reliablity to name a few reasons. We have ridden them fully laden (4 panniers & rackback, barbag etc) downhill at speeds over 60kph and never had issues with them.

We used the 100 day option for a couple of parts, (we paid for the new part and returned the old one, they refunded the money).

We spent several hours in the shop the first day (don't expect it to look like a like shop, it does not, it looks more like an insurance
agents!) and talked over various things with the mechanic, looks at various bikes in and around the shop and tried various parts, sizes etc whilst there. We collected our bikes 2 weeks later (quite season) and spent another couple of hours talking with them, getting them set up how we wanted and covering maintenace. they were quite happy to take us through what was needed in the shop and my OH reomved various parts and put them back on under supervision etc so everyone was happy we were ready for our world tour and knew how to look after the bikes. Part of the cost of the bikes includes the ability to get technical support (M-F) when you need it. We used this a couple of times, calling them from Norway (warranty replacement on a failed dynamo front light) Serbia (frozen gear changer cables) and from Greece (new gear selector as a result of frozen cables) speaking with a mechanic to clarify what was 'wrong' and what needed etc. each and every time we found them exceptionally helpful and very knowledgable.


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## MacB (30 Jan 2013)

I suppose an easy starting point is budget, work out how much you can afford, how much what you'd like would cost and then see how big the gap is, if at all. I've looked at Thorn several times but mainly from the rohloff perspective other aspects of their offerings leave me cold and especially their attitude. They did nearly win me over with the Mercury, 700c, finally introducing disc brakes and a decent length head tube but there were still too many compromises required from my end.

But a lot depends on how involved you want to get in the selection, build and ongoing maintenance side of things. Despite Thorn jarring with me a bit, the overwhelming impression is one of top notch customer service and support which comes at a price and with quirks. If those quirks aren't an issue for you then I'd rate them as a first class choice, if they are then maybe look elsewhere.

Re the bike selection itself then I have some personal preferences which also seem to have coincided with the general direction manufacturers have headed in recently. So disc brakes, 700c/29" wheels/tyres, big clearances - if you look around US sites you'll see the term gravel grinder used to describe a lot of these. I'm not sure how relevant some of the previous preferences around 26" wheels for touring will remain, ie availability of parts and strength of wheels.

At one point I did envisage 'one bike to rule them all' and I sort of went ahead with that anyway but I also decided that more than one bike was the perfect solution. So I ended up with 2 rohloff bikes:-

allrounder - custom Ti frame with adjustable rohloff dropouts for chain tension, it's almost a 29er frame but with a long headtube and has Surly disc trucker forks for the front end. It's a flat bar build and the geometry is almost identical to that of the Thorn Mercury, though the tubing is a bit beefier. It has clearances for up to a 700x45 tyre but 700x42 with guards and runs a SON Delux hub up front. This bike is permanently shod with mudguards, rear rack, dynamo lights etc. The main reason for choosing a Ti frame was the anti corrosion as this is also my bad weather bike and gets shod with studded tyres in the Winter.

29er - custom steel frame with the same adjustable rohloff dropouts, this has a newer 36h rohloff and the frame also has mounts for rack and guards etc. If I ever wanted to rough tour then I'd just move the dynamo setup to this bike and probably put on rigid steel 29er forks.

Both of these bikes, and my road bike, use the same rims so wheelsets can be mixed and matched if need be, I also included derailleur capability in the two custom rohloff frames just in case. We have 3 more 29ers in the garage all of which have slotted or adjustable dropouts and are hub gear or derailleur friendly. As well as all 6 bikes sharing the same wheel size they also all run Avid BB7 cable disc brakes. I don't mind doing bike maintenance but it's a lot easier when all the bikes share so many parts.


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## Yellow7 (30 Jan 2013)

mickle said:


> With so many outstanding UK frame builders - from Argos to Woodrup, you're spoilt for choice.


 
I opted for an Argos frame, nothing for Gary was an issue, unlike a few other frame makers that wanted to simply sell frames they already had. 

Although I was never happy with the sliding drop-out or eccentric bottom-bracket method of chain tensioning, from an engineers point of view both are indirect ways of tensioning, so I used the Surly chain tensioner & had my own drop-outs laser cut from 6mm stainless (also with a derailier hanger just in case!) of which Argos Cycles were more than happy to fit. Never had a problem with my Rohloff in 17,000 miles, on one chain-ring (Surly), one chain (KMC) & three sprockets.


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## MacB (30 Jan 2013)

Yellow7 said:


> Although I was never happy with the sliding drop-out or eccentric bottom-bracket method of chain tensioning, from an engineers point of view both are indirect ways of tensioning, so I used the Surly chain tensioner & had my own drop-outs laser cut from 6mm stainless (also with a derailier hanger just in case!)


 
My first go around with a custom frame I ended up going the same way and opted for normal dropouts, I did have a mini EBB for a while but preferred the idea of a chain tensioner in the end. Then the various swing style dropouts started to hit the market and they appealed a great deal more. That first frame is now the road bike with derailleurs and the next custom frame had Paragon Machineworks' variation of a swing dropout called a Rocker.

So far these dropouts have been rock solid and, unlike sliders, they allow for standard rack/guard fittings as the disc caliper sits between the stays. The engineering blurb also claims that chainstay orientated calipers remove the need for a brace between the stays. There are several production bikes using this or similar dropout styles now and more and more frame builders are offering them as an option. As the dropout itself is an add on part you no longer have to decide on configuration at point of build. I have non drive dropout inserts for Rohloff and non Rohloff and drive side ones with/without mech hangers.


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## Bodhbh (31 Jan 2013)

SatNavSaysStraightOn said:


> We spent several hours in the shop the first day (don't expect it to look like a like shop, it does not, it looks more like an insurance agents!)


 
You're right it is an odd looking place. We were passing thru Bridgewater on route to Exmoor, and it dawned on me the Thorn shop was in town and we decided to have a nose. It turned out it was closed, but there was nothing in the window to indicate it was a bike shop - it looked like an empty car show room - plenty of space but nothing there. Maybe they remove all the stock?


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## mmmmartin (31 Jan 2013)

take with you the luggage you will be carrying on your planned tour, and cary it on your test ride, and think about the type of touring you might be doing in six years - so will you want a light bike to carry a couple of small panniers or a heavier bike to carry front panniers, rear panniers, tent, etc etc, wine, water etc etc. A cheaper option might be to buy a light bike for unladen touring, and a heavier bike for camping. i have a Thorn audax Mk 3 for long distance and lighter use and an old secondhand Dawes Galaxy for cycle camping - mind you, when fully loaded the Galaxy wobbles alarmingly and the ancient canti brakes are useless, which makes me eye the Thorn Sherpa bikes - stronger and with V brakes - currently on offer. The Thorn 100 day money back guarantee is excellent. Then again, if you plan to be flying with your bike a lot, instead of a lovely shiny Thorn, you might want to spend a few hundred quid on a Galaxy from Ebay so when it arrives in the baggage hall damaged, you haven't lost the thick end of two grand..........

oh - and IMO dynamos offered by Thorn are very expensive - the £200 for the SON hub plus the £70 for the light is a lot of money, and although I ride on audax and overnight events in the dark all the time, when touring I find riding in the dark a very rare occurence. So I think a dynohub might not be worth it.

But I would deffo buy a few spokes when the bike is made up - tape them to the crossbar and it might save yu a lot of trouble one day. (DAHIKT)


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## Brains (1 Feb 2013)

Bodhbh said:


> You're right it is an odd looking place. We were passing thru Bridgewater on route to Exmoor, and it dawned on me the Thorn shop was in town and we decided to have a nose. It turned out it was closed, but there was nothing in the window to indicate it was a bike shop - it looked like an empty car show room - plenty of space but nothing there. Maybe they remove all the stock?


It's all out the back. They live in series of old stables with a central yard, so frames are in one stall, wheels in another


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## Spinney (1 Feb 2013)

OH went to Thorn when he was looking for a new bike. In spite of having effectively arranged an appointment, there had been no effort to get the bike he was interested in at the right size in the showroom so he could try it. Don't know if we were expecting too much, but when you've travelled a fair distance it's a bit disappointing. There would have been little point in a test ride on anything else.


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## Skipper9999 (1 Feb 2013)

I have 650 mile round trip so I hope I'm not as disappointed ?? 

Wish I could also find a price list for Woodrup chimera belt drive !!


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## MacB (1 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> I have 650 mile round trip so I hope I'm not as disappointed ??
> 
> Wish I could also find a price list for Woodrup chimera belt drive !!


 
if it helps then I would cost all the bits at about £2.4k which would cover everything but the frame including a rohloff/SON dynamo wheelset with high end lights and using mid to high end components, Hope, Thomson, Brooks and so on - this would be everything, guards, racks, seatpost, saddle, bars, grips, etc, etc, so an on the road and ready to go build price. Obviously this cost could be raised or lowered depending on component choice.

A custom frame to suit the above is going to run somewhere from £700 to £2.5k depending on your choice of builder, material and finish. For example a Shand Cycles custom frame in steel would cost you about £1.3k and their complete rohloff builds come in around the £3.5k mark.


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## MacB (1 Feb 2013)

This is the one I was looking at:-

http://www.shandcycles.com/frames/allroad-plus/stoater-plus-overview/

has the capacity for belt drive etc and I don't think the price would be much different, if at all, to get a more tour orientated frame built.


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## Tony W (1 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> I have 650 mile round trip so I hope I'm not as disappointed ??
> 
> Wish I could also find a price list for Woodrup chimera belt drive !!


 

Hi Skipper, Tony Woodrup from Woodrup cycles here. Prices for our handmade Chimera frameset built from Reynolds 725 tubing start from £1170 inc vat, full bikes using Shimano Alfine 11 start from around £2400 and Rohloff from around £3000. As all our bikes are fully custom built from a wide range of component options we can adapt our bikes to suite most budgets and riding styles. If you are passing by Leeds and would like to take a bike out for a test ride please don’t hesitate to contact me.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (1 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> I have 650 mile round trip so I hope I'm not as disappointed ??


 Just make sure they know you are coming that far and what you are interested in.
We did 2 * 250 miles round trips for our bikes and made it clear to them what we were interested in beforehand.


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## Spinney (1 Feb 2013)

User14044mountain said:


> I too have a Thorn Nomad Mk2. It is slow, steady and very comfortable. It rides better loaded up than not loaded. I bought it with 2.2 Marathons (tyres) but changed to 1.7 Duremes, which make it roll a little better without sacrificing any comfort.
> 
> I made two trips to Thorn, from North London. One to talk about buying the bike (and I placed an order at the end of the visit) and one to pick it up, three weeks later. On my first visit, Lisa spent along time talking me through the options and asking about my riding habits and what I was looking for. I took an existing bike and they measured me up.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe they were having an off day when we went....


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## Brains (1 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> I have 650 mile round trip so I hope I'm not as disappointed ??
> 
> Wish I could also find a price list for Woodrup chimera belt drive !!


There is a review of the woodrup chimera in this months 'cycle' magazine from the CTC


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## Spinney (1 Feb 2013)

User14044mountain said:


> What did your OH end up with? It's always a shame when that happens. I guess I've always had good experiences when buying bikes - I've also got three Bob Jacksons, from the days when they'd make up a bike as well as just supply the frame.


In the end he bought a steel-framed bike he saw in a tiny bike shop in Kendal! Seems happy enough with it, although the paint on the frame seems to chip very easily. But that's irrelevant for the OP!

I bought myself a bike a bit later - went to Hewitt's in Leyland (Lancashire), got measured up and bought a Cheviot tourer. Very happy with that.


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## srw (1 Feb 2013)

Spinney said:


> the paint on the frame seems to chip very easily


 In that respect it's a bit like a Thorn. They provide a dinky little paintpot, so you can mend the chips very easily.


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## SatNavSaysStraightOn (1 Feb 2013)

srw said:


> In that respect it's a bit like a Thorn. They provide a dinky little paintpot, so you can mend the chips very easily.


yep - but that little pot of paint caused 'issues' with our two yellow bikes. It is very thin and for whatever reason black dirt sticks to where ever it is applied and you end up with a yellow bike looking like it has black spot disease. We stopped using it.


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## Wowbagger (1 Feb 2013)

The paint job on my solo is much better than on the tandem. Both are green, but th tandem seems to have a kind of "sparkle" to it. I have a tin of hammerite in the garage for "touching up" purposes.


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## vernon (5 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Just getting round to buying a new bike and have a fancy for a "New Thorn Raven".
> I am visiting them on Monday 4th Feb 2013.


 
How did you get on?


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## Skipper9999 (5 Feb 2013)

Well thanks for asking and sorry it took a while to answer........... Late back last night.


The experience was well worth the journey down to Bridgwater even at 660 miles round trip and a night in a hotel.
We were (4 of us took the opportunity to visit and 3 of us to ride out on the bikes) met by Stephen who with a bit of assistance looked after us throughout the morning. I was bowled over by the size of the operation they have and the vast array of test bikes.

After an introduction I was asked what sort of things I wanted from the bike, I am quite a novice with probably less than 3000 miles under my belt since I took up cycling a couple of years ago and usually spend my time walking the hills or doing trips further afield on a motor cycle.
.
My main use would be a 3 times weekly run out for about an hour on 75% roads (with the ever growing potholes) 20% uneven pavement and 5% gravel path. On a good weekend about 30 miles taking in more gravel paths and the odd bit muddy path. On the odd trip away with light luggage and this may grow into a tent etc one day. I do intend to get out more in the future. I hope to do LEJOG in a couple of years time and not sure what route I would take . I can’t see myself throwing myself down mountain hills but I would like to spend more time on forest tracks and old railway lines.

The test bike I took out was a Thorn Raven with big tyres (I think they were Marathon Supremes) the bike I could not fault, the Rohloff Hub instantly took to me; the V-brakes stopped the bike when instructed. (Although I had always fancied Disc) The riding position was good using The Thorn flat track bars with the Ergon bar ends suited me well. The ride was a lot better than I get from my Dawes Karakum running on Marathon Plus 700x35 tyres.

My only doubt was not while riding the bike it was looking at it afterwards, it just looks so small with its 26” wheels and my 6’1” height and 100kg bulk. It did not feel small while I was riding it only the photographs afterwards.

I can’t help think that people will think I have borrowed it, or is this something I will get used to? Do any other users have similar experience and overcome them. Or should I look at 700 wheels? Would these be strong enough for the riding I want to do?

So many questions I have looked at forum posts about wheel size and still can’t find myself an answer and wondered if it was best and gain knowledge from other large riders about the bikes they ride.
I know that Thorn also do the Mercury but failed to spend much time with this yesterday.

I had a nice phone call with Tony Woodrup after his earlier post to which he supplied a rough quote but wondered if I was going to the other side of £3000 a bit too far (same as the Mercury). The Woodrup product does look good.

My day well worth the trouble and I learned so much but sadly not enough. My only complaint of Thorn was the missing cup of coffee ..........

So many questions to ask I hope forum members can help.






The test bike




Is it me or do the wheels look small?


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## Skipper9999 (5 Feb 2013)

Do Rohloff not only do 32 holes ??


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## P.H (5 Feb 2013)

I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I've always preferred the look of 700c wheeled bikes. I'm 6'2" and the 26" wheeled bikes I've had always look to me to be out of proportion. If you do look at 700c Rohloff bikes there isn't a lot of choice, the titanium Van Nicholas Amazon Rohloff might be worth a look, is a bit cheaper than the Thorn Mercury, but still not cheap.  There's plenty of other British frame builders with Rohloff experience, I've seen examples from Dave Yates, Bob Jackson, Mercian and Roberts, all of which have looked good, none of which are cheap!
I started a thread for photos of Rohloff bikes, Rockymountain was good enough to add his, it'd be good to see a few more on there.
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/rohloffs.123079/


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## P.H (5 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Do Rohloff not only do 32 holes ??


That used to be the case, mine is 32, now they offer 36.


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## Yellow7 (5 Feb 2013)

I believe Rohloff have recently started selling a 36 hole but as the hub is not ‘dished’ (same spoke length either side) tension on either side is the same therefore, providing the wheel is made correctly to start with, spokes breaking becomes almost obsolete. My last tour was to Cape Town with no broken spokes….oh, and have I mentioned in previous post’s that was with just one flat!!! ;-))))


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## geocycle (5 Feb 2013)

Interesting thread. I've had my raven for 6 years and think its great for an all purpose bike. I agree with much of the discussion above about it being wonderfully boring! I do like the look of the mercury and if funds were unlimited that would be my current choice. Partly for the aesthetics and also because i am not doing as much loaded touring as before. However, the raven tour blends into the bike sheds at work better than the mercury would. One important factor is that bikes like these really hold their value. I could probably get close to the purchase price of mine if I were to sell it even after 6 years daily use. The woodruff also looks great, despite the poor review in Cycle - such a wasted opportunity.


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## vernon (7 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Do Rohloff not only do 32 holes ??


 
My Wheel has 36 spokes.


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## Bodhbh (7 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> View attachment 18582
> 
> Is it me or do the wheels look small?


 
Incidentally, which Paramo smock are you wearing? I've been using a windproof Velez smock for years and been very happy with it. It was fully waterproof, but it's not anymore no matter what I have tried regarding reproofing (can't complain as it wasn't supposed to be). I've looked at some of the other Paramos, the cycling specific ones, but they look a bit warm outside of winter.


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## snailracer (7 Feb 2013)

The 26" wheel gives more toe clearance with mudguards fitted, without having to extend the wheelbase which would make it more difficult to manoeuvre around obstacles you might find on a trail.


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## Matt2matt2002 (7 Feb 2013)

Sorry to jump in here but so excited to read everything said about the Raven since I am due to take delivery of a nearlyt new one next week. At 5' 10'' I have gone for a large frame so fingers crossed I will fit.
I know what folk mean about the look of a 26 inch wheel but I guess it is getting the job done that counts rather than how one looks to the passers-by.


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## Skipper9999 (7 Feb 2013)

What spec does it have Matt ??? 

I'm sure the size will be right for you , nearly new ?? How old ? I guess it's the new Raven


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## jags (8 Feb 2013)

why would you get the idea you look to big for that beauti.
how was it to ride you look good on that bike best of luck with your choice.

jags.


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## Nigeyy (8 Feb 2013)

FWIW I don't think the wheels look too small. Aesthetically, I can't say I'm with Thorn's extensive use of headset spacers, but if you are comfortable, it certainly shouldn't matter. I can't say for touring wheel size matters too much to me, but being a short ar$e, I have found some 700c bikes with toe overlap (particularly with mudguards), and I can't get on with toe overlap at all (yeah, I know some people can, I can't). If a wheel size can't provide functionality, that's a good enough reason not to use that wheel size for me.

Good luck and hope you enjoy your new bike.


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## Skipper9999 (9 Feb 2013)

jags said:


> why would you get the idea you look to big for that beauti.
> how was it to ride you look good on that bike best of luck with your choice.
> 
> jags.


The ride was good, with the softer wider tyres than the 700 wheels it felt smooth, I felt very comfortable on the bike it handled well in traffic.The Hub gears a joy (I have a Trek Soho with 8 gears), 

I only disliked it when I looked at the photographs. Maybe it is a bad angle? I also wondered if the bike was in red would it look bigger and appear to make the stem look smaller?

I need a Photoshop edit done on the Photographs I think.


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## Skipper9999 (9 Feb 2013)

I am going to Leeds next week to try a Woodrup ..............Oh dear the choices??
Then my mind will be made up I hope ?!?!?


26 or 700 wheels
Belt or chain
disc or V-Brakes
I still can't fault the Thorn Raven so why now start looking at belt drives and discs, It is driving me mad (and my mates)
OH Dear ................................Then if it's a woodrup I have to choose a colour..........


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## GarminDave (9 Feb 2013)

Sure is! Driving me mad that is!

Later

Dave


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## vernon (9 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> OH Dear ................................Then if it's a woodrup I have to choose a colour..........


 
Pale green. It's low key and gives the bike a classic look.


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## vernon (9 Feb 2013)

User14044mountain said:


> Would they do it another colour, if requested, Vern?


 
They will do any colour(s) that is/are available. You can also specify contrasting panels like I did for mine. As much as I liked the green, I didn't want everything green.

I provided a computer colour printout of the colour scheme that I wanted - annotated sketches will do.


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## GarminDave (14 Feb 2013)

Going to visit Woodrup tomorrow, looking forward to a day out. But will there be more questions than answers? I'll take my camera,

Later

Dave


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## ufkacbln (15 Feb 2013)

User14044mountain said:


> I think the black colour is a good call - stealthy and won't draw too much attention when touring. The Nomad brochure on the Thorn website talks about the choice between black and yellow (Nomad is only available in these colours) - it's worth a read. The shape and angles look different to road bikes but believe me, they soon grow on you!!


An unclaimed advantage is that the Nomad simply does not lookalike. £2000 bike!


It looks industrial which is brilliant


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## vernon (15 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 has his heart set on orange.....


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## GarminDave (16 Feb 2013)

What a fantastic day we had at Woodrup and as for Vernon he's a star. Waiting with welcoming pies from Vernon the day just kept getting better. Weather perfect, nice canal side ride, drink in a great British boozer and excellent cycles. It is still too early to say if Bill has decided but at least, I think, he has decided on which rim tape to use! Big thanks to Woodrup and Vernon for an excellent Yorkshire welcome,

Later

Dave


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## Iainj837 (16 Feb 2013)

I visited Thorn a @ the start of this week and I was amazed buy the size of the shop, the staff were very helpful.
If I had enough money I would certainly buy one of the bikes.
I was shown a Sherpa but was still over my £1000 limit.
The range was awesome


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## jags (17 Feb 2013)

i ride the sherpa its a great all round bike just couldn't fault it. but if i had the money after seeing my friends bike i would buy the raven sports tour stunner.


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## Skipper9999 (25 Feb 2013)

Three weeks have passed since my visit to Thorn and many late night thoughts followed . Then a visit to Woodrup to finally try and sort out my dilemma .

I could not fault my visit to Thorn very friendly excellent advise , a great test ride. The bike (New Thorn Raven ) behaves well, comfortable absolutely no complaints. I thought the setup at Thorn was fantastic and felt comfortable if I had purchased the bike . 

The only fault was me , I felt at 6'1" the bike looked small or was it the wheels ?? The choice of the frames is more limited . 

Anyway I ended up at Leeds and a visit to Woodrup's a smaller setup and hand built frames made to order to exact size required , the test ride was helped by Vernon being on hand with his bike (and pies) which was a better fit for me and which he kindly let me use. 

In the end I was happy with both shops , Woodrup's won the day on total personal build and my decision to go belt drive and 700c wheels . 

I thank everyone who posted comments to my threads all helpful and set up a debate at times .

My Decisions that took the longest to sort in order :
Wheel size(700)
Belt/chain (belt)
Dynamo(yes)
Rear light (yes I think)
Tube 725 or 853 (725 yes for now , how would I know)
Tyres supreme/dureme (schwalbe supreme 35mm ) 

Some choices are easily changed later others not ....

Have I picked the right Frame size ? That was suddenly a difficult decision when you have a choice . 

Oh and dear me I still have the colour to pick!?!?!? It was Orange up till 6pm and then I still like Vernons bike .

Now the bad bit .......the wait for delivery , I just hope Kevin ( frame builder) gets a few half shifts and the odd weekend in over the next couple of months :-) 

I'm one of those people that take weeks to make up my mind then wants delivery the next day .. I'm not alone? Am I ??


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## MacB (25 Feb 2013)

Far from alone I took over 12 months for my first decision and the other choices, as you say are alterable. Belt can go to chain, tyres can be switched, dynamos can be swapped out. Even the rear light, a choice I made but possibly wouldn't bother with again, can be altered easily. I put two inline connectors on my rear light cable so I can disconnect near the front light and remove the front light and dynamo wheel to use on another bike. Also another connector where the cable meets the rack so that I can remove the rear rack and light without disturbing the cable setup on the frame.

I think you've made a fine choice and you can rehash your colours many times between now and paint time


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## vernon (25 Feb 2013)

Skipper9999 said:


> Oh and dear me I still have the colour to pick!?!?!? It was Orange up till 6pm and then I still like Vernons bike .





MacB said:


> I think you've made a fine choice and you can rehash your colours many times between now and paint time


 
I have both colours and my orange Dave Yates will become a green Dave Yates when I have the frame resprayed next year.


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## P.H (26 Feb 2013)

Congratulations on the choice, I think it's always worth the time and effort to get what you want rather than what anyone else thinks you should have. 


> Tube 725 or 853 (725 yes for now , how would I know)


That's one choice I would leave to the framebuilder, if you don't trust them to know the best material to build what you're asking for, then I wouldn't trust them to build it.
And a frame is for life, the colour isn't. My oldest frame is about to get it's third one, as soon as I can decide, though it won't be green.


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## willem (26 Feb 2013)

Reynolds 853 has a higher tensile strength, so can be used with thinner walls for greater comfort and a more lively feel. But it is also more expensive. I think 35 mm tyres are (too) narrow for a loaded tourer. So I would make sure that you have clearance for at least 42 mm tyres.
Willem


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## e-rider (26 Feb 2013)

willem said:


> Reynolds 853 has a higher tensile strength, so can be used with thinner walls for greater comfort and a more lively feel. But it is also more expensive. I think 35 mm tyres are (too) narrow for a loaded tourer. So I would make sure that you have clearance for at least 42 mm tyres.
> Willem


that depends how loaded - a world tour, perhaps - LEJOG no way!


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## MacB (26 Feb 2013)

e-rider said:


> that depends how loaded - a world tour, perhaps - LEJOG no way!


 
I think Willem was as much referring to having the capacity as whether you use it or not. Get a 700c frame with clearances up to 700x42-45, the same as offerings from Surly/Salsa, and you will have more versatility just in case. I suppose it depends on whether the aesthetics of narrower tyres and bigger clearances bother you or not.

I toyed with the idea of giving my tourer clearances up to 700x60 but didn't like the appearance when I fitted 700x32s to my 29er as a test. It leaves some big gaps and makes mudguards trickier and, IMO, only really works if you're always going to run 50mm+ tyres.

I ended up designing the tourer up to a 700x42 but 700x40 comfortably with guards and designing in rack and touring potential for my 29er frame. So if I want to tour really rough then it would be the 29er and some rigid forks with lowrider mounts. It helps that geometry wise the tourer and 29er are extremely close.


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## willem (26 Feb 2013)

It was indeed about being able to fit wider tyres. However, for a tourer loaded with even a modest 15 kg of camping gear I do think 35 is too narrow for anything other than smooth tarmac. I have 700 c bikes with 32 mm OPasela's (my old commuter, and also an older road bike), 35 mm Pasela's (my cyclocross bike used as a fast tourer) and a 26 inch loaded tourer with the 42 mm 26x1.75 Pasela's and the related Compass 26x1.75. For the latter bike I also have 50 mm Marathon Extremes for off/gravel road tours. For my extended tours I really like the radically better comfort of the widest tyres. Moreover, if they are good quality like particularly the Compass 26x1.75, they can be very fast as well. So why not fit wider tyres for Lejog? On a lightly loaded 700 c bike I would fit the 37 mm Pasela without the Kevlar puncture protection. That tyre is a real 37 mm, and I would want to have the clearance.
Willem


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## MacB (26 Feb 2013)

Another consideration is that you can design around more than one set of forks. You still need to make sure that you have clearance on the frame itself but you could comfortably accommodate a 1 degree swing, for example:-

using 72/72 angles with a Surly Disc Trucker fork and axle to crown of 390mm and as high a BB as you're comfortable with

then you could switch to roadier tighter clearance forks with an axle to crown of 370mm which would change the angles to 73/73 and drop the BB lower

Hey presto sporty setup with one lot of forks and relaxed tourer with the other.


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## Skipper9999 (26 Feb 2013)

I just thought I would post the dimensions of the new build to get some comments .... 

60cm centre to top of seat lug
59.5cm top tube [virtual]
Head tube set at 21.5cm
280mm bracket height based on 700x35

I am 6'1" and have a long leg (36" the way Thorn measures you pelvic bone to floor. Or a 34" trouser .)


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## willem (27 Feb 2013)

How about crank length?


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## Skipper9999 (27 Feb 2013)

175mm


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## willem (27 Feb 2013)

Would 180 mm not be better for your long legs?


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## MacB (27 Feb 2013)

Those numbers seem in the right ballpark to me Skipper, though the same height as you I'm a bit longer in the body and shorter in the leg. So I probably have a lower saddle though it's hard to compare via ST measurements as that depends on TT angle. However my ETT is 615mm and HT 200mm - a bit longer and lower - which would sound about right to me.

Crank lengths, well I stick with 175mm, I have toyed with ideas about longer cranks and you can easily find recommendations that would suggest 190mm for me and about 195mm for you. However those cranks are limited production and very expensive. I think you can get up to about 185mm with mainstream ones but only at the top end, so expensive again, of the scale.


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## willem (28 Feb 2013)

Affordable ($ 139 in the US, but arms only) and long (180, 200 and 220 mm): http://store.interlocracing.com/irdexlocrar.html


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## Skipper9999 (22 Apr 2013)

It has finally arrived.






More about the initial thoughts here......


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## pkeenan (22 Apr 2013)

Looks absolutely awesome Skipper!
Getting your first tourer is so personal and special!
May you enjoy many miles of comfort and trouble-free cycling!


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## Nigeyy (23 Apr 2013)

Woo hoo! Congratulations, it looks great!!!!!


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