# Dont use blue lights, you aint a copper!!



## downfader (19 Jan 2010)

Last night I was a passenger in my Father's car and as we drove up our road we could see a flashing blue light ahead coming from the other way. Dad slowed down as we got close and we realised it was just some bloke on a cycle. He wasn't a cycling policeman, or a PCSO, or a paramedic etc, yet he was using a blue flashing light.

Needless to say it seemed to cause some confusion for the drivers behind him who didn't know if they could overtake him or not. There must have been about 8 cars, all politely following him and giving him loads of space despite the fact they had plenty of opportunity to overtake before we were even close.

Whilst it was quite funny to see, and even thinking back on it, the guy is really going to have a bit of a shock when he gets pulled for it. The Police around here may ignore some ninja-cyclists, they wont ignore blue lights (remembering the chavmobile that was pulled a little while back for having blue neons under his car chassis)

So my message to those considering using or buying them is this: dont. At the very least you might cause a situation for an official blue light where it isnt respected.

End rant.


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## palinurus (19 Jan 2010)

downfader said:


> all politely following him and giving him loads of space despite the fact they had plenty of opportunity to overtake before we were even close



Neat!


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## thomas (19 Jan 2010)

palinurus said:


> Neat!




+1...if it keeps him safe I'm not going to fuss. Maybe the Police should do more to stop him feeling like he needs to rely in a flashing blue light, by making the roads safer for cyclists.


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## yashicamat (19 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> +1...if it keeps him safe I'm not going to fuss. Maybe the Police should do more to stop him feeling like he needs to rely in a flashing blue light, by making the roads safer for cyclists.



Unfortunately in reality what will happen is motorists will slowly form a disregard for a flashing blue light . . . then it'll be the real emergency services who get hindered.

Keep it legal folks, white at the front and red at the back. I don't particularly like the green at the front either, but that's me.


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## adscrim (19 Jan 2010)

There is a letter in this weeks CW regards blue lights and advising commuters to get one (advice coming from the letter writer but the magazine published it). His theory was that car drivers almost don't see red lights any more but they take notice of a blue flashing light. I was thinking this a bit risky from an impersonating a policeman way.


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## downfader (19 Jan 2010)

adscrim said:


> There is a letter in this weeks CW regards blue lights and advising commuters to get one (advice coming from the letter writer but the magazine published it). His theory was that car drivers almost don't see red lights any more but they take notice of a blue flashing light. I was thinking this a bit risky from an impersonating a policeman way.



CW has published a fair few of those letters in the past 2 years iirc. 

There is nothing to be gained from using an illegal light set up. If we want to be taken seriously we all need to set an example, and I dont think CW have done that with these letters. 

Thomas, Palinurus, it was interesting to watch but then the reality set in. I agree more needs to be done, but we also have to do our bit.


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## ufkacbln (19 Jan 2010)

Slightly OT, but I must admit my lighting is "dodgy"

I do have a pair of "Bobby Dodgers" that satisfy the legalities, but my backup lighting is so far in excess of the standrads of RVLR and BS6102/3 that they would never be legal.


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## Arch (19 Jan 2010)

yashicamat said:


> Unfortunately in reality what will happen is motorists will slowly form a disregard for a flashing blue light . . . then it'll be the real emergency services who get hindered.



Plus 1, and then hope it's not you waiting for a cycle paramedic one day when they are getting hindered.

There are plenty of ways to be eyecatching without a blue light. I go for several reds, some flashing, some steady, some in my pedals - those get a lot of positive comments from other cyclists....

Plus of course, my POLITE waistcoat. Deemed acceptable by at least two real coppers.


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## hackbike 666 (19 Jan 2010)

My lighting has been commented on recently.Some bloke at Liverpool Street was commenting on my MR16 (21 led)lamp and I saw a moton giving it a good look tonight.

A Scottish cyclist this morning remarking on my rear lights.All for the good.

4 on the bag one on the bike plus a backup...hidden.


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## Bman (19 Jan 2010)

I agree. It is a bad idea to use blue lights in the context of the OP. The police (quite rightly) take a very dim view of this, as I’m sure will be evident to us when one of the resident "CC PC's" spot this thread.

However, I am a little amazed (and maybe a little impressed) at the driver behavior it seems to create. That’s how all of us (with normal, legal lights) should be treated!


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## HJ (19 Jan 2010)

yashicamat said:


> Unfortunately in reality what will happen is motorists will slowly form a disregard for a flashing blue light . . . then it'll be the real emergency services who get hindered.
> 
> Keep it legal folks, white at the front and red at the back. I don't particularly like the green at the front either, but that's me.



+1

Any cyclist who is *not* a member of the emergency services on a call, using a flashing blue light should be fined, have the light confiscated and made to walk the rest of the way. Using a blue light like that is stupid and arrogant, flashing blue lights are for the emergency services only and should be respected as such.


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## skudupnorth (19 Jan 2010)

Could have done with a set tonight so the silly old mare who decided not to wait behind the parked car on her side of the road and happily blundered over in front of me and nearly gained a cyclists shaped bonnet mascot ! I know they are wrong but splattering cyclists season has started again now the ice and snow have gone.....to top it all, it was on the same bloody road i had my hit and run on


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## Crankarm (19 Jan 2010)

adscrim said:


> There is a letter in this weeks CW regards blue lights and advising commuters to get one (advice coming from the letter writer but the magazine published it). His theory was that car drivers almost don't see red lights any more but they take notice of a blue flashing light. I was thinking this a bit risky from an impersonating a policeman way.




CW is not called the Comic for nothing . This is not the first letter they have published advocating the use of blue lights which they support as they have not distanced themselves from the irresponsible behaviour by adding an Editor's note. CW published a series of them before Christmas, one they even gave Star Letter of the Month treatment and a top of the range cycling computer for the plank author who stated that using blue flashing lights kept him safe and was the way to go. The stance of CW on this is clearly irresponsible and would be laughable if on reflection it didn't have serious implications for all the other reasons stated here. It is illegal.

Impersonating the police or other emergency services is an offence and causes confusion on the roads. Blue lights are reserved for the emergency services. The only colour of lights that can be used on a bike are red at the back and white at the front. As others have said there are much more sensible and effective ways of making your self visible without resorting to using blue lights. Cyclists who choose to use them who are not entitled to ie not police officers, paramedics, etc., are either ignorant muppets or selfish arrogant planks. Period.


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## BentMikey (19 Jan 2010)

I think you all (generally) are being a tad jobsworthy on the whole blue light thing. It's wrong, but it's not axe murdering, nor is it nearly as bad as driving on the mobile.



Arch said:


> There are plenty of ways to be eyecatching without a blue light.
> 
> Plus of course, my POLITE waistcoat. Deemed acceptable by at least two real coppers.



Isn't that just slightly hypocritical? It's OK to look like police as long as you don't have a flashing blue light?


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## Muddyfox (19 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> I think you all (generally) are being a tad jobsworthy on the whole blue light thing. It's wrong, but it's not axe murdering, nor is it nearly as bad as driving on the mobile.
> 
> Isn't that just slightly hypocritical? It's OK to look like police as long as you don't have a flashing blue light?



I totally agree 

The hi-viz waistcoats with "polite" on the back were designed to look like "Police" at a glance ...... Pot and Kettle spring to mind 

there are loads of cyclist riding around Exeter with blue flashing lights and the police dont bother ... not that we have cycle police or paramedics on bikes down here 

Simon


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## Norm (19 Jan 2010)

I view looking like a police vehicle as being just as incredibly selfish as those who buy a large heavy car because it's safer. 

"I'm all right, Jack, pull up the ladder..."


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## Crankarm (19 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> I totally agree
> 
> The hi-viz waistcoats with "polite" on the back were designed to look like "Police" at a glance ...... Pot and Kettle spring to mind
> 
> ...



And where would your avatar place a blue flashing light? 

I don't agree with you JD but looking at your avatar pic I can forgive you anything. Just carry on posting .......... .

I think she would cause major traffic jams where ever she cycled dressed like that no male driver would ever pass her ......... .


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## downfader (20 Jan 2010)

Personally I'm not too sure of the Polite tops either.  Didnt Vike say the otherday that even eluding to it is an offence?


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## beanzontoast (20 Jan 2010)

downfader said:


> Personally I'm not too sure of the Polite tops either.  Didnt Vike say the otherday that even eluding to it is an offence?



From the point of view of motorists seeing one of these, some are going to see it as harmless (even humourous) while others will see it as another instance of negative behaviour by cyclists.

I suspect a motorist who had a large look-alike 'POLITE' decal affixed to their vehicle would soon be dealt with by the law.


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## dudi (20 Jan 2010)

i was thinking about something like this a few days ago as I feel that my 2 red rear lights get lost in the traffic and people may assume i'm just a car a bit further ahead...

Would it be bad form to add a bit of interest to the rear light collection? say a touch of purple or orange? 
Would it cause a bit too much "urh, what's that??? derrrrrrrrrrrrr...." and distract the drivers from their main cause of driving safely? or would it be a bit of "hey, that's no car... that's a bike - i'd better drive really safely"?

I know you couldn't use blue or green safely, but surely a decent shade of purple, just to grab the attention would be alright?


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## Bman (20 Jan 2010)

I think there is a difference between using a blue flashing light and a "polite" decal. 

Road users are only going to mistake the "Polite" for "Police" if they're not paying enough attention. A second (or longer) glance will show it for what it is. A blue light however, is still a blue light...


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## l33rec (20 Jan 2010)

Seems like he was using the flashing blue light wrongly but for the right reasons In my work ( Commercial Vehicle Recovery) we note over the last 10 years peoples acknowledgement of flashing amber lights as a hazard or abnormal / slow moving vehicle now they dont even register somedays I am nearly 40 metres long ( my truck towing an artic lorry or bendy bus ) we have when on the motorways and certain fast a roads taken too using alternating rear red ights under the adage better too be tried by 12 than carried by 6 ..... If i am impersonating a copper so are all those pcso s and Highways agency officers !!


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## beanzontoast (20 Jan 2010)

Bongman said:


> I think there is a difference between using a blue flashing light and a "polite" decal.
> 
> Road users are only going to mistake the "Polite" for "Police" if they're not paying enough attention. A second (or longer) glance will show it for what it is. A blue light however, is still a blue light...



Yes, but surely the intention is to encourage them to mistake it for the word POLICE, and that is inherently wrong? 

I don't think it holds water to say it all depends on how carefully they look. If you look carefully at the person with the blue light, you will tell from the rest of their appearance and their bike/vehicle whether they are a member of the emergency services or not - it still causes initial confusion in the same way the POLITE vest does.


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## Bman (20 Jan 2010)

In principal yes, I agree. I just think using a blue flashing light is significantly worse. 

Clothing isnt really a deciding factor, the cyclist could still be a PC in plain clothes. Once you read the "Polite" decal properly, you immediately realise that they are not police.


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## beanzontoast (20 Jan 2010)

Bongman said:


> In principal yes, I agree. I just think *using a blue flashing light is significantly worse*.
> 
> Clothing isnt really a deciding factor, the cyclist could still be a PC in plain clothes. Once you read the "Polite" decal properly, you immediately realise that they are not police.



Agreed.

I think both the vests and blue lights are pretty rare - we never seem to get either round here. We didn't even get examples of the 'Christmas lights' cyclists that I saw pics of in threads around December time!


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## Zippy (20 Jan 2010)

I didn't know there were such things as cyclist emergency services with legal blue flashing lights - is this a wind up or do they actually exist and where?


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## Vikeonabike (20 Jan 2010)

l33rec said:


> If i am impersonating a copper so are all those pcso s and Highways agency officers !!



Actualy PCSO' and Highway Agency officers are legislated to use Emergency lights.
l33rec, all though it's not legal for you to use flashing red and amber....if you were recovering a vehicle on a busy road I would be inclined to ignore that particular breach in favour of common sense and safety..the droids may not.

Arch's Hi Viz Vest. HI Viz works best in day light. At night, all you can see is a haze of reflected light. Hi Viz in itself should be a warning to other road users that there is someone else on the road a long time before the can read the words POLITE. If they get close enough and mis read this, then they either need their eyes testing or they are not paying attention. It shouldn't make any difference what Arch has printed on her Hi Viz (Obviously as long as it isn't POLICE)

"Flashing" Blue Lights however are illegal as are Solid Blue to the rear!
Don't do it.....


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## siadwell (20 Jan 2010)

Zippy said:


> I didn't know there were such things as cyclist emergency services with legal blue flashing lights - is this a wind up or do they actually exist and where?



Oh yes. They are common in built up areas such as London.

Last one I saw was a paramedic at the regatta at Cowes last year. The rider looked a bit tired from pedalling all tha equipment around, so had parked up outside a chippy for some refreshment.

Photo of North Yorkshire cycle cops from http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/.


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## jimboalee (20 Jan 2010)

Back when I worked for the fuel injection company, we worked on the MG Meastro EFi. 2.0 liter.
The 'rolling chassis' prototype test vehicle ( diguised as an ordinary Meastro in a deep blue colour ) went like shoot off a shovel.

The WM traffic lads GAVE us a rooftop beacon. 

No car would overtake.


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## yashicamat (20 Jan 2010)

siadwell said:


> Oh yes. They are common in built up areas such as London.
> 
> Last one I saw was a paramedic at the regatta at Cowes last year. The rider looked a bit tired from pedalling all tha equipment around, so had parked up outside a chippy for some refreshment.
> 
> Photo of North Yorkshire cycle cops from http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/.



Not just London, we get them (or had them) in Macclesfield too. I've chatted with a few who use them (I work with the Police quite a lot) and they say that it's rare they'll actually pull anyone over on a bike, the blue lights are there to alert other road users that they are on an emergency call and need to get through the traffic as quickly and safely as possible. Cue my reasons in the last post about it being a bad idea to have blue lights on a bike. They do have a siren as well (or they did around here anyway) but I haven't heard it in operation so I have no idea how effective it is.


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## thomas (20 Jan 2010)

downfader said:


> *
> There is nothing to be gained from using an illegal light set up.* If we want to be taken seriously we all need to set an example, and I dont think CW have done that with these letters.



I thought you said he got overtaken with lots of space....so obviously there is  



downfader said:


> Personally I'm not too sure of the Polite tops either.  Didnt Vike say the otherday that even eluding to it is an offence?



If I caught up with a moton could I say "I'm TC Etherington, please pull over, over there in regard to the manoeuvre you just carried out. Please bare in mind that you are on camera so driving off will make things worst..."

But say TC quickly enough that it might be alluded to PC if the person wasn't paying attention...TC being Thomas Charles (my name). In a very similar fashion to the Polite tops?


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## Rhythm Thief (20 Jan 2010)

dudi said:


> i was thinking about something like this a few days ago as I feel that my 2 red rear lights get lost in the traffic and people may assume i'm just a car a bit further ahead...



That can happen. But it's much less likely if you've got flashing LEDs front and back (in addition to a steady light), and perhaps a hi viz vest. Messing about with other colours will just confuse people.


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## downfader (20 Jan 2010)

Rhythm Thief said:


> That can happen. But it's much less likely if you've got flashing LEDs front and back (in addition to a steady light), and perhaps a hi viz vest. Messing about with other colours will just confuse people.



Thats what I do. 2 front white, 2 rear red with one of each flashing, I also wear a billious yellow top or an altura nightvision fleece jacket (still yellow but not billious - also a damn sight more comfortable to wear than the waterproof)

EDIT I will add that using flashing orange or yellow lights can make drivers think they're indicators,so beware of that.


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## spen666 (20 Jan 2010)

I remain unconvinced that it is illegal to have blue flashing lights on your bike or on your clothing as long as you also have the correct red at rear and white at front lights and reflectors etc


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## marinyork (20 Jan 2010)

spen666 said:


> I remain unconvinced that it is illegal to have blue flashing lights on your bike or on your clothing as long as you also have the correct red at rear and white at front lights and reflectors etc



Clothes, maybe not. Bicycle, yes. 

Anyway the issue is really that as we know several shops have sold fairly proper blue lights not just micro ones, ones mimicking popular cateye ones but in blue and this has gone on for some time. The same thing but less worse with snot coloured LED lights, but smaller, although the issue there is how poorly they perform.


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## BentMikey (20 Jan 2010)

I sometimes have a blue tyrefly on my front wheel - on steady.


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## Muddyfox (20 Jan 2010)

The law regading impersonation of an officer is one of those where you do not have to be trying to commit the offence, to actually commit an offence - confused : here's the sort of relevant science bit;


Section 90 of the Police Act 1996) creates offences relating to the impersonation of police officers or the possession of articles of police uniform, 

namely: 
impersonating a police officer (including a special constable); 
making a statement or doing any act calculated falsely to suggest membership of a police force; 
wearing a police uniform calculated to deceive; 
possessing an article of police uniform. 
NB: The words "calculated to deceive "means likely to deceive" and therefore the fact that there was no intent to deceive is immaterial.

Any person who, not being a constable, wears any article of police uniform in circumstances where it gives him an appearance so nearly resembling that of a member of a police force as to be calculated to deceive shall be guilty of an offence.

“article of police uniform” means any article of uniform or any distinctive badge or mark or document of identification usually issued to members of police forces or special constables, or anything having the appearance of such an article, badge, mark or document.

So, it could be put forward by any prosecutor that the sole reason you have the word POLITE, on the back of your jacket, and the particular colour combo you've used is an attempt to give at least a partial impression that the garment is actually indicating that it refers to police, bearing in mind that what the piece of legislation says is that the article only has to give the "appearance" and whether or not you intended people to think that is irrelevant.


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## beanzontoast (20 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> So, it could be put forward by any prosecutor that the sole reason you have the word POLITE, on the back of your jacket, and the particular colour combo you've used is an attempt to give at least a partial impression that the garment is actually indicating that it refers to police, bearing in mind that what the piece of legislation says is that the article only has to give the "appearance" and whether or not you intended people to think that is irrelevant.



This is what I fear could happen if ever a situation arose where a motorist had a serious interaction with a cyclist wearing one of these and made a complaint to the police.


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## Debian (20 Jan 2010)

Flashing blue lights and mock-police vests etc are just plain wrong and send out all the wrong messages to those who we wish to view us as responsible road users.

If a car driver used similar tactics I bet most on here would be all over him/her like a ton of bricks.

Red at the back and white at the front is perfectly adequate, as are normal hi-vis tops (without "POLITE" or whatever written on them).


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## Muddyfox (20 Jan 2010)

I'm not sure that the Police would prosecute anyone for wearing the hi-viz "Polite" tops or using the blue lights unless there was another factor involved ... they might confiscate the items ?

My point was that those that wear the Hi-Viz Polite tops should'nt be finger wagging at the guy with the blue lights as they are both as bad as each other 

But personally i could'nt care if they were dressed as a chief inspector and waved a Truncheon all the way to work


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## thomas (20 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> *My point was that those that wear the Hi-Viz Polite tops should'nt be finger wagging at the guy with the blue lights as they are both as bad as each other *
> *
> But personally i could'nt care if they were dressed as a chief inspector and waved a Truncheon all the way to work *




+1. As long as cyclist can get around safely.


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## GrasB (20 Jan 2010)

On this topic I've just seen a 4x4 with spots mounted on the top of its roll over bar, this was a proper working 4x4, the outside 2 had blue LEDs in place of the bulb, not bright but they were on. The result was total chaos with the traffic coming towards him, some clocked him as just being a 4x4 with 2 blue spots others acted like he had blue flashers on & scurried to the side of the road. Result, tooting, flashing of lights & everyone saw seemingly random behaviour by the people on the other side of the fence. My thought when getting back in was along the lines of - what would have happened had an emergency vehicle come along the road about 30s after than 4x4?

So no I think that using blue lights isn't a good idea at all.


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## Bman (20 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> But personally i could'nt care if they were dressed as a chief inspector and waved a Truncheon all the way to work





thomas said:


> +1. As long as cyclist can get around safely.



What if the guys job is stealing bikes?


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## thomas (20 Jan 2010)

Bongman said:


> What if the guys job is stealing bikes?



Well then he can get squished. I think you know what I mean though .

I'm not going to loose sleep that someone has a blue light on their bicycle, or wears a 'polite' vest. However, I have lost sleep at night over some of the closest overtakes I've experienced.


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## Bman (20 Jan 2010)

I know what you mean. But I think Vike put it best in this thread : 



Vikeonabike said:


> .... However until you use blues and two's you do not realise how dangerous they are as road users will react in very different ways.
> Yesterday I stopped a young lady for speeding and jumping a red light (I was on a motorcyle). Her reaction on seing blue lights was to do an emergency stop right in front of me in lane two. Not fun going from 50 to 0 in a nano second on a trail bike on wet greasy roads. Had I not been trained to anticipate this the consequences could have been unthinkable.
> Quite simply....DO NOT USE FLASHING BLUE LIGHTS on your bike, car. wheelbarrow etc. They are for Emergency services only!


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## Arch (20 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> My point was that those that wear the Hi-Viz Polite tops should'nt be finger wagging at the guy with the blue lights as they are both as bad as each other



Yes, but your point has been contradicted by a serving police officer on this thread, and by another talking to me personally.

I've had nothing but positive comments about my vest from other cyclists and pedestrians, and never been pulled up for it. If any police officer ever did so, I'd relinquish it, and those of us who got one when they were organised by a regular on the C+ forum did discuss and get advice first.

It has an added point, in that I feel compelled to be polite while wearing it...

Cycle mounted Paramedics and Police are common here in York, where they are able to negociate the congested but relatively small city centre extremely well - they have lights and sirens, the latter used mostly to warn pedestrians, since they are permitted to use the pedestrian zones. When I had occasion to call 999 I had a paramedic with me within a minute - a huge relief, although sadly he was always going to be too late. The sad thing is, as I opened the door to him, in the midst of the worst trauma I'd ever been through, and in some degree of shock, a tiny voice at the back of my head said "cool, one of the bike guys..."


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## Muddyfox (20 Jan 2010)

Arch said:


> Yes, but your point has been contradicted by a serving police officer on this thread, and by another talking to me personally.



But im afraid a police officers personal view whether on here or not is'nt law ... Police officers do not make the laws that we have to live by neither can they change them to suit themselves whether its a good idea or not 

Like i've said i dont care what you wear or how many blue flashing lights you have on your bike or whether the whole of the Metropolitan Police think you look dapper in your Polite Hi-Viz vest ... but people that live in glass houses should'nt throw stones 

Simon


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## marinyork (20 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> But im afraid a police officers personal view whether on here or not is'nt law ... Police officers do not make the laws that we have to live by neither can they change them to suit themselves whether its a good idea or not
> 
> Like i've said i dont care what you wear or how many blue flashing lights you have on your bike or whether the whole of the Metropolitan Police think you look dapper in your Polite Hi-Viz vest ... but people that live in glass houses should'nt throw stones



You're not comparing like for like. 

I think using the sorts of blue lights I'm talking about is much worse than Arch's top, it's fairly distracting having a 5-7 blue LED perhaps 10cm wide on the bike. If someone's worried about standing out in terms of urban jungle and colour scheme I suggest they do the green/amber thing attached to their clothing which doesn't have the same set of issues attached. I'd personally recommend buying a couple of smart 1/2 watts and attach them at different positions on the bike.


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## Debian (20 Jan 2010)

I am not swayed at all by any of the proponents of using blue lights and quasi-police clothing.

Doing such things detracts from the high moral ground that we aim to take and it also detracts from the legitimate users of such devices because they are tainted with some of the opprobrium resulting from the illegitimate use.


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## Arch (20 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> I am not swayed at all by any of the proponents of using blue lights and *quasi-police clothing*.
> 
> Doing such things detracts from the high moral ground that we aim to take and it also detracts from the legitimate users of such devices because they are tainted with some of the opprobrium resulting from the illegitimate use.



But my vest isn't police clothing, quasi or otherwise. It says Polite on it. Anyone who can read can see that. Just like anyone who can read can see that those notices you see people put up to ask people not to park outside their house are headed Polite Notice.

Do you seriously think the Police are going to be tainted by my vest? That would only happen if I routinely broke the law while wearing it, and I don't, wearing it or not.


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## Muddyfox (20 Jan 2010)

marinyork said:


> You're not comparing like for like.



Yes i am 

the law is the law which ever way you choose to impersonate a police officer

Marin ... i understand exactly what your saying (and Arch) and as previously stated (i dont care what people wear) 

Simon


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## marinyork (20 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> Yes i am
> 
> the law is the law which ever way you choose to impersonate a police officer
> 
> Marin ... i understand exactly what your saying (and Arch) and as previously stated (i dont care what people wear)



No you're not. A police officer doesn't wear a siren on his head. The lights is a totally different issue which is assigned colours/lights/etc to vehicles. On a practical level it's also a very different matter, you can see the blue lights a lot further away than something more passive in the environment like arch's top.

As for the impersonating a police officer, how far do you want to take it, you could argue wearing any hi-viz top is impersonating a police officer.


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## Muddyfox (20 Jan 2010)

Arch said:


> But my vest isn't police clothing, quasi or otherwise. It says Polite on it. Anyone who can read can see that.




Section 90 of the Police Act 1996) creates offences relating to the impersonation of police officers or the possession of articles of police uniform, 

namely: 
impersonating a police officer (including a special constable); 
making a statement or doing any act calculated falsely to suggest membership of a police force; 
wearing a police uniform calculated to deceive; 
possessing an article of police uniform. 
*NB: The words "calculated to deceive "means likely to deceive" and therefore the fact that there was no intent to deceive is immaterial.*

*Any person who, not being a constable, wears any article of police uniform in circumstances where it gives him an appearance so nearly resembling that of a member of a police force as to be calculated to deceive shall be guilty of an offence.*

Arch ... if the vest works for you then great  i was merely pointing out that it is an offence the same as the blue bicycle lights 

simon


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## Debian (20 Jan 2010)

Arch said:


> *But my vest isn't police clothing, quasi or otherwise*. It says Polite on it. Anyone who can read can see that. Just like anyone who can read can see that those notices you see people put up to ask people not to park outside their house are headed Polite Notice.
> .



Don't be disingenuous, of course it is. Your intent is for others, at first glance, to see it as POLICE, not POLITE. If this isn't your intent then it's even more pointless and puerile. If it is your intent then it's close to impersonating a police officer. There's no difference, except one of scale, between your vest and a motorist decking their car out in police livery and putting "POLITE" on the doors, bonnet and rear end. The intent is to deceive.

Your comparison the the use of "polite notice - no parking" is inapt, there's no impersonation of a police officer involved.


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## marinyork (20 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> Your comparison the the use of "polite notice - no parking" is inapt, there's no impersonation of a police officer involved.



Have you actually seen them? Some are mocked up to look like the equivalent.


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## classic33 (20 Jan 2010)

Tried with two police forces to find out whetether both the lights & polite Hi-Viz vest are illegal. Both can find nothing within the current law that states that either cannot be used.
The old wording used was "legally obtained" lighting. Therefore having "legally obtained" by purchase over the counter. The lights are legal. Been followed by a police car, but had nothing said when wearing the POLITE vest. 

In both cases the aim wasn't to set out & try to give the impression of being in the emergency services, but to aid visibility. In fog flashing blue lights can be seen a lot easier & presumably earlier than their red counterparts.

Checking this out I've found that strobe lights do not appear to be covered by the regulations. Rotating lights but not strobe lights. Odd in a way.

How many on here are non serving police officers actually own & use any item of police equipment?


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## Debian (20 Jan 2010)

marinyork said:


> Have you actually seen them? Some are mocked up to look like the equivalent.



But it's not impersonating a police officer which is the offence.


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## Debian (20 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> Tried with two police forces to find out whetether both the lights & polite Hi-Viz vest are illegal. Both can find nothing within the current law that states that either cannot be used.
> The old wording used was "legally obtained" lighting. Therefore having "legally obtained" by purchase over the counter. The lights are legal. Been followed by a police car, but had nothing said when wearing the POLITE vest.
> 
> *In both cases the aim wasn't to set out & try to give the impression of being in the emergency services, but to aid visibility*. In fog flashing blue lights can be seen a lot easier & presumably earlier than their red counterparts.
> ...



So why do you need the word POLITE on the vest if it's merely to aid visibility?


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## marinyork (20 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> But it's not impersonating a police officer which is the offence.



Do keep up! We're talking about two different things.


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## Debian (20 Jan 2010)

marinyork said:


> Do keep up! We're talking about two different things.



Are we?


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## downfader (20 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> Are we?



The Polite tops were mentioned either by me or someone else as an aside tbh. Its a little off topic

Lets not turn this into a he-said-she-said thing. Arch is still cool


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

downfader said:


> The Polite tops were mentioned either by me or someone else as an aside tbh. Its a little off topic
> 
> Lets not turn this into a he-said-she-said thing. Arch is still cool



Wow, that's nice! I don't think I've ever been cool before!


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## Armegatron (21 Jan 2010)

Interesting thread. Ive just had a couple of thoughts...

Regarding the "Polite" vests (which I like the idea of) - I remember seeing something stating that its an offense for not only blue lights but anything that reflects blue (so blue batten-burg reflectives on transit vans etc). Is the "Polite" part of these vests in a reflective blue box?

http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/


> "In the regulations, lights, reflectors and reflective material are all classed as lights on cars (this means that the public cannot have blue reflective graphics for example)."




Also, I see way too many HGV drivers with blue lights plastered on their vehicles, yet never pulled over by the police.


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## beanzontoast (21 Jan 2010)

Aside from individual points of view of forum members, I wonder how the 'reasonable person' in the street (someone who isn't involved as a cyclist) would view the use by ordinary people of blue lights or vests that resemble those used by members of the emergency services?


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## HobbesChoice (21 Jan 2010)

I must admit, I don't personally see how the hi vis vest is nearly as bad as flashing blue lights.

The significance of a flashing blue light means that there is an emergency, get out of the way and even stop if you can safely do so and let the vehicle with the flashing lights pass you and get on their way. They're responding to an emergency and they need to get to their destination as fast as possible whether that holds up normal road users or not (correctly).

So whether or not you're impersonating a police officer wearing a high viz polite vest is beside the point. If you're doing so with intent to be mistaken for a police officer (as I know Arch isn't) then the worst you're asking for is for people to be careful how they act around you - forcing you to abide by the law to the letter. 

The majority of people who see a police officer will slow down to the allowed speed limit, avoid driving into the ASL, wait a few minutes until the officer has left before grabbing old ladies handbags etc. So that's the most Arch or anyone would receive in their Polite high viz vest.

Cycling down the road with blue lights flashing is going to encourage people to get out of your way and even stop for you to get through which is obviously totally unacceptable.

The two just don't compare!


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## thomas (21 Jan 2010)

HobbesChoice said:


> I must admit, I don't personally see how the hi vis vest is nearly as bad as flashing blue lights.
> 
> The significance of a flashing blue light means that there is an emergency, get out of the way and even stop if you can safely do so and let the vehicle with the flashing lights pass you and get on their way. They're responding to an emergency and they need to get to their destination as fast as possible whether that holds up normal road users or not (correctly).
> 
> ...



I think that arguably they are different, flashing blue lights are worst but the polite vests are there so that drivers believe the cyclist is a police officer and will be a bit more patient, otherwise the vest could just have cyclist written on the blue background.

Flashing blue lights does give a much greater impression of being part of the emergency services, and I would not have a flashing blue light myself as I'd rather just have a couple front and rear lights which make me nice and visible.


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## HobbesChoice (21 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> I think that arguably they are different, flashing blue lights are worst but the polite vests are there so that drivers believe the cyclist is a police officer and *will be a bit more patient, otherwise the vest could just have cyclist written on the blue background*.
> 
> Flashing blue lights does give a much greater impression of being part of the emergency services, and I would not have a flashing blue light myself as I'd rather just have a couple front and rear lights which make me nice and visible.



I do see your point Thomas, and I'm not saying a polite vest should be acceptable, just that comparing a polite vest with blue lights is too OTT (IMO).

I had to smile at your quote I've bolded above. While a Polite/Police vest may get people acting with more patience, having Cyclist written on the back could encourage totally opposite behaviour!


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## thomas (21 Jan 2010)

HobbesChoice said:


> I had to smile at your quote I've bolded above. While a Polite/Police vest may get people acting with more patience, having Cyclist written on the back could encourage totally opposite behaviour!



 I always wondered if I had a picture of a beautiful women on my back if some drivers would be a bit more patient


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

mike.pembo said:


> Interesting thread. Ive just had a couple of thoughts...
> 
> Regarding the "Polite" vests (which I like the idea of) - I remember seeing something stating that its an offense for not only blue lights but anything that reflects blue (so blue batten-burg reflectives on transit vans etc). Is the "Polite" part of these vests in a reflective blue box?
> 
> http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/




Interesting about reflectives. If it's an offence, it's an entirely ignored one - think about how many guys you see wearing hi vis with blue and white 'Security' panels on the back. And I see plenty of vehicles emblazoned with faux battenburging (I like that term!) which turn out to be burglar alarm companies or the like...

I notice that your quote says ..."on cars" - so presumably that exempts clothing? That would explain its use on security guards' vests and so on.

It occurred to me on the way in that I can bring down the wrath of many with the revelation that my winter bike, entirely coincidentally since I was given it out of a batch as the one that fitted me, is blue and yellow... In fact, before I had my vest, I was riding it, in dark trousers, my blue and white helmet and a yellow coat, and I challenged a lad for jumping a red light and hopping up on the pavement, and I'm fairly sure the reason he didn't immediately tell me to F off was because he mistook me for a copper...


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> I always wondered if I had a picture of a beautiful women on my back if some drivers would be a bit more patient



No, I fear they'd be more distracted and driving one handed...


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## siadwell (21 Jan 2010)

Using battenburg livery on a vehicle is completely legal, as long as it does not reflect (as mike.pembo stated). If you look closely at such a vehicle, you'll notice that the blue parts are not relective decals.

As this restriction is contained in the vehicle lighting regs, having a blue reflective rectangle on the back of your jacket would not be covered, although there's still the possibility of being done for impersonating a police officer.


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## siadwell (21 Jan 2010)

However, according to http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/showthr...Private-Security-Vehicles&p=373466&viewfull=1, this guy went too far and was done for impersonation, so watch yourself Arch!


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

siadwell said:


> Using battenburg livery on a vehicle is completely legal, as long as it does not reflect (as mike.pembo stated). If you look closely at such a vehicle, you'll notice that the blue parts are not relective decals.



Ah, thanks, I hadn't thought of that.



> As this restriction is contained in the vehicle lighting regs, having a blue reflective rectangle on the back of your jacket would not be covered, although there's still the possibility of being done for impersonating a police officer.



Well, I'll take the opinion of a couple of police officers on that for now, and promise not to whine if it ever goes wrong for me.

FWIW, as far as I know Justin (who wasn't exactly a renegade, being a RN submariner) only ever got the one batch of about a dozen made, so they are pretty thinly spread, unless anyone else ever got round to doing the same. Cyclists often ask me where I got it and seem disappointed that I can't tell them a shop. Maybe if they got more common, it would be more of a problem.


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

siadwell said:


> However, according to http://www.5ive-o.org/forum/showthr...Private-Security-Vehicles&p=373466&viewfull=1, this guy went too far and was done for impersonation, so watch yourself Arch!



Yeah, that is too much....

There is another thing - my vest only works from the back, so I can't ever use it to 'force' people out of the way, even if I wanted to. Much as I'd sometimes like to add a little breast-pocket style Polite panel, I'd consider that too much.


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## Wheeledweenie (21 Jan 2010)

Back on blue lights, my principle worry about putting one on my bike is that they're meant to be used in the dark. All drivers can see is the light, not what it's attached to and that's why it provokes the panic response to get out of the way. 

I've had near misses several time with people stopping very sharply or pulling into the cycle lane without looking to get out of the way of emergency vehicles that are miles away, more confusion is not what's needed. 

Besides, being a stubborn so and so I don't want to change my light set up, I shouldn't have to, people should learn to drive properly. 

I personally wouldn't use one, however tempting it might be.


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## Dan B (21 Jan 2010)

I think the issue with "POLITE" vests is: would you swap it for one that said "NOT RUDE" instead? If not, why not? I agree that the flashing blue light thing is a more serious deal.

One of my friends was once threatened with arrest for impersonating a police officer because he was wearing an ordinary (builder-style) high-viz reflective.


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

coruskate said:


> I think the issue with "POLITE" vests is: would you swap it for one that said "NOT RUDE" instead? If not, why not? I agree that the flashing blue light thing is a more serious deal.



Not really, that wouldn't be funny would it? I'm just having a laugh.



> One of my friends was once threatened with arrest for impersonating a police officer because he was wearing an ordinary (builder-style) high-viz reflective.



Was this recent? The world and his wife wear hi vis coats these days. They sell them on the market in York. We all wear them for work - our job involves standing in the road a lot of the time, so they are pretty vital. Or did he do something to attract the attention of police officer, possibly one having a bad day, who then wanted an excuse?


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## beanzontoast (21 Jan 2010)

coruskate said:


> I think the issue with "POLITE" vests is: would you swap it for one that said "NOT RUDE" instead? If not, why not?



Nail. Head.


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## Debian (21 Jan 2010)

coruskate said:


> I think the issue with "POLITE" vests is: would you swap it for one that said "NOT RUDE" instead? If not, why not? I agree that the flashing blue light thing is a more serious deal.
> .



This is similar to the question I posed on this thread yesterday and I note that neither have been answered. He claimed that the only purpose of the vest is to be more visible; if that's so then any word or phrase, or none at all would serve equally well.

It's pretty obvious that the sole purpose of these vests is to appear to others as a police officer, even if only at first glance and this is what I think is wrong. Arch states that he's "only having a laugh" but I really don't think it's either funny or clever. Impersonating the emergency services is not "having a laugh".


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## downfader (21 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> This is similar to the question I posed on this thread yesterday and I note that neither have been answered. He claimed that the only purpose of the vest is to be more visible; if that's so then any word or phrase, or none at all would serve equally well.
> 
> It's pretty obvious that the sole purpose of these vests is to appear to others as a police officer, even if only at first glance and this is what I think is wrong. Arch states that he's "only having a laugh" but I really don't think it's either funny or clever. Impersonating the emergency services is not "having a laugh".



A) He..?

 in the grand scheme of things even I accept this causes less problems than the blue lights... for some of the various reasons already mentioned. 

If I'm being honest here you're coming across a bit strong, as I tried to say to you earlier lets not turn this into bullying. Arch is not obliged to answer you (and has already done a fair job adding to the debate):troll:.


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## Arch (21 Jan 2010)

Arch said:


> Not really, that wouldn't be funny would it? I'm just having a laugh.



Silly me, I thought the above qualified as an answer...

Don't worry Downfader, I haven't yet been condemned by anyone whose opinon I particularly respect. As for a) well, it's a classic moment, and it's been a classic moment since the old C+ days...


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## 139NI (23 Jan 2010)

Im afraid I'm with Met Police at the mo. Heres my two-pence worth - someone covered this partially earlier but i think they had a good point.

Wearing the POLITE jacket.... - not a big deal i feel. Most motorists will prob note it mentally an move on. Nearly all Met police cyclist will ride fairly assertively and ride "like they own the road" in the primary position is what one said to me [i dont cycle in the job]. i think if theres any learning to be had here, it'll be in the position on the road you adapt, not what is purported on anyones jacket that will keep you from harm. Would the guy wearing the jacket get stopped and spoken to? i would be surprised if they were..

Not everyone likes police - what if a slag who is anti-police is motoring behind you and decides to give you a close one? or your route to wherever takes you through a slag council estate? - would you not then be unwise to purport to be police when you are not? 

Flashing blue light..... - could get you in trouble. We all know its regs to have white at the front and red at the rear. No where does the highway code state that blue lights are acceptable and should be used. Unlike the POLITE jacket which is more a passive statement, flashing blue lights are making a positive statement of 'emergency services coming through' which provokes an abnormal reaction in other motorists - which in turn may cause drivers to make unforced errors. would the guy with the flashing blue lights get stopped and spoken to? Probably yes - be given words of advice.

So, my [two-penny] conclusion - wear the jacket if you got one, but beware you may get what you ask for.. Dont use blue lights at all, its arrogant, illegal and it may erode the potency of it for people like me for when i might need it. There may come a time when you want those on blue to get to an incident without confusion and motorist wasting time trying to suss out its authenticity.

What would happen if everyone used a blue flashing light???????


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## gaz (23 Jan 2010)

139NI said:


> What would happen if everyone used a blue flashing light???????



Then emergency services would use a different colour.


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## Vikeonabike (23 Jan 2010)

139NI said:


> Unlike the POLITE jacket which is more a passive statement, flashing blue lights are making a positive statement of 'emergency services coming through' which provokes an abnormal reaction in other motorists /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Couldn't have put it better myself...actually I didn't put it better so +1 to 139NI


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## thegrumpybiker (23 Jan 2010)

I've ordered myself a blue LED. My intention is to have it mounted on the rear, in constant NOT flashing mode, along with a constant AND flashing red. My thinking being this; the constant blue will add a "stand out from the crowd" factor. Car drivers in front won't see any blue, flashing or otherwise in their mirrors and pull over/brake suddenly.
If I'm still breaking the letter of the law I couldn't care less.


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## Zippy (23 Jan 2010)

> I've ordered myself a blue LED. My intention is to have it mounted on the rear, in constant NOT flashing mode, along with a constant AND flashing red.



Could be mistaken as an oncoming cyclist on the wrong side of the road and cause a motorist, or cyclist who had just glanced up, to swerve.

An accident waiting to happen IMO whether you care less or not!


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> I've ordered myself a blue LED. My intention is to have it mounted on the rear, in constant NOT flashing mode, along with a constant AND flashing red. My thinking being this; the constant blue will add a "stand out from the crowd" factor. Car drivers in front won't see any blue, flashing or otherwise in their mirrors and pull over/brake suddenly.


2 Points:
1) All it takes is a an interruption to the observers line of sight & suddenly your solid blue has just turned into a flashing blue light!
2) What about the cars behind you when you're turning right or at junctions, possibly drivers who have just passed you & are using their mirrors?

Using a blue light imho is arrogant, selfish & dangerous. It devalues the authority that the emergency services gain from having blue lights. Thank you for proposing to make the roads a more dangerous place


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## numbnuts (23 Jan 2010)

GrasB said:


> Using a blue light imho is arrogant, selfish & dangerous. It devalues the authority that the emergency services gain from having blue lights. Thank you for proposing to make the roads a more dangerous place


I don't like to be called names  and what the **** has it got to do with you what people use on their bikes


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

Sorry for having a strong opinion but I'm not name calling I'm saying what I feel the use of blue lights on the UK roads is. I apply this not only to cyclists but also lorry drivers & people who are using blue lights on other vehicles too that aren't EMS vehicles. What has it to do with me? I use the roads so I may well have to deal with the fall out, that's what. 
IMHO blue lights are for EMS vehicles only & not for use by the general public. That is the way it should be.


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## downfader (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> I've ordered myself a blue LED. My intention is to have it mounted on the rear, in constant NOT flashing mode, along with a constant AND flashing red. My thinking being this; the constant blue will add a "stand out from the crowd" factor. Car drivers in front won't see any blue, flashing or otherwise in their mirrors and pull over/brake suddenly.
> If I'm still breaking the letter of the law I couldn't care less.



If you want to stand out ride in a sequin dress or a monkey suit. Dont take the p*** out of what blue lights are for. 



numbnuts]I don said:


> their[/U'] bikes



Sometimes its has EVERYTHING to do with other people. I dont want to be in a future situation where a family member is waiting for an ambulance or paramedic bike and it cant get throught because people dont regard it as serious anymore.[/U]


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> I've ordered myself a blue LED. My intention is to have it mounted on the rear, in constant NOT flashing mode, along with a constant AND flashing red. My thinking being this; the constant blue will add a "stand out from the crowd" factor. Car drivers in front won't see any blue, flashing or otherwise in their mirrors and pull over/brake suddenly.
> If I'm still breaking the letter of the law I couldn't care less.



Well you should care! This is just a stupid and crass attitude that helps to give all cyclists a bad name 



numbnuts said:


> I don't like to be called names  and what the **** has it got to do with you what people use on their bikes



It has everything to do with other cyclists because one idiot abusing the rules adds to the opinion that all cyclists are law breaking idiots! 



GrasB said:


> Sorry for having a strong opinion but I'm not name calling I'm saying what I feel the use of blue lights on the UK roads is. I apply this not only to cyclists but also lorry drivers & people who are using blue lights on other vehicles too that aren't EMS vehicles. What has it to do with me? I use the roads so I may well have to deal with the fall out, that's what.
> IMHO blue lights are for EMS vehicles only & not for use by the general public. That is the way it should be.



I totally agree with GrasB's comment.


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## thegrumpybiker (23 Jan 2010)

Let's get real. One small eye-catching constant blue light surrounded by much brighter reds, which is my intended set-up, is highly unlikely to be mistaken for someone riding in the opposite direction I think. Or even as an emergency vehicle.


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> Let's get real. One small eye-catching constant blue light surrounded by much brighter reds, which is my intended set-up, is highly unlikely to be mistaken for someone riding in the opposite direction I think. Or even as an emergency vehicle.



Maybe, but the fact is that blue lights are only legal for use by the emergency services and your "couldn't care" attitude does no one any favours.

Keep it legal and reasonable.


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## thegrumpybiker (23 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> your "couldn't care" attitude does no one any favours.



It could do me a favour if it made the difference between being seen and safe or being a twisted heap of metal and broken flesh.


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> It could do me a favour if it made the difference between being seen and safe or being a twisted heap of metal and broken flesh.



OK, if you say so.


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## Bman (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> It could do me a favour if it made the difference between being seen and safe or being a twisted heap of metal and broken flesh.



That sounds a bit like the mentality of 4x4 mums....


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

Bongman said:


> That sounds a bit like the mentality of 4x4 mums....



My thoughts too.


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## thomas (23 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> Well you should care! This is just a stupid and crass attitude that helps to give all cyclists a bad name




No it doesn't. I've seen cars with blue lights on and I don't think that it gives a bad name to every motorist. The sort of people who can't distinguish probably already hate _every_ cyclist anyway.

Make the roads safer for cyclists and people won't do silly things like have blue lights. It'd also solve problems like cycling on the pavements.


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> If I'm still breaking the letter of the law I couldn't care less.



Yes I can see there are quite a few of you out there who couldn't care less.


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## numbnuts (23 Jan 2010)

Ten pages on a blue light  the proof of the pudding will be if someone gets pulled by Mr Plod and seeing that I have mine for over two years now without one incident says a lot either Mr Plod doesn’t care or I’ve been very lucky, I do have a red B.S light on my rear rack and another red flashing light on my camelbak, so well covered. As a matter of fact I bought the blue light from Argos sold as rear light for cyclists.


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## Norm (23 Jan 2010)

Bongman said:


> That sounds a bit like the mentality of 4x4 mums....


I would say +1 but I'll just repeat what I have already written in this thread



Norm said:


> I view looking like a police vehicle as being just as incredibly selfish as those who buy a large heavy car because it's safer.
> 
> "I'm all right, Jack, pull up the ladder..."


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jan 2010)

numbnuts said:


> Ten pages on a blue light  the proof of the pudding will be if someone gets pulled by Mr Plod and seeing that I have mine for over two years now without one incident says a lot either Mr Plod doesn’t care or I’ve been very lucky, I do have a red B.S light on my rear rack and another red flashing light on my camelbak, so well covered. As a matter of fact I bought the blue light from Argos sold as rear light for cyclists.



Haven't read the thread but I can't see why you would want a blue light when a red is sufficent.

If that's what rocks your boat then fine.Doesn't bother me really.


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## thomas (23 Jan 2010)

hackbike 666 said:


> Haven't read the thread but I can't see why you would want a blue light when a red is sufficent.



A green light would probably be more useful, as I think it's the colour that humans can see the easiest......that could be complete rubbish though


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> A green light would probably be more useful, as I think it's the colour that humans can see the easiest......that could be complete rubbish though



Brighter colour innit.They have them in railway signals.


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## l33rec (23 Jan 2010)

Vikeonabike said:


> Actualy PCSO' and Highway Agency officers are legislated to use Emergency lights.
> l33rec, all though it's not legal for you to use flashing red and amber....if you were recovering a vehicle on a busy road I would be inclined to ignore that particular breach in favour of common sense and safety..the droids may not.
> 
> 
> ...



Actually it is legal for me to use alernating reds at " scene of incident or accident " however their use whilst moving is prohibited and any way the comment was made tongue in cheek in an attempt to add some humour to the thread am sure both pcso and h a officers do some good if only some relief on the public coffers as theyre cheaper than the real deal !!

Anyway this is a cycle forum so lets stay on track!!


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

Regarding those who advise using a different colour rear light in order to stand out from the crowd I have to say that anything other than red to the rear and white to the front is confusing and, I would say less safe. I have spent many years on the road learning that red = rear = something in front of me, white = front = something approaching me and I automatically react accordingly. Most other road users would react similarly.

Any other solid colour leads, at least momentarily to having to mentally stop and think "what the hell is that and is it moving towards me or away from me?" hence my reaction time is inevitably longer and hence, IMHO using any other colour than red or white is likely to make a cyclist less safe, not more.


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## thomas (23 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> Any other solid colour leads, at least momentarily to having to mentally stop and think "what the hell is that and is it moving towards me or away from me?" *hence my reaction time is inevitably longer* and hence, IMHO using any other colour than red or white is likely to make a cyclist less safe, not more.




I wouldn't use anything but red and white, but if I saw a different colour my reaction wouldn't be to do something that would increase my reaction time. I'd ease off until I knew what it was.


> Brighter colour innit.They have them in railway signals.




And traffic lights


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> And traffic lights




I did know that honest.


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## PBancroft (23 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> I wouldn't use anything but red and white, but if I saw a different colour my reaction wouldn't be to do something that would increase my reaction time. I'd ease off until I knew what it was.



Would you really though... and if you genuinely would (a blind est would be ideal, but I guess we can trust your word ) what about everyone else?

If I saw, say, a green light (but obviously not a traffic light) I think I probably would think "WTF?" for a moment before slowing down.


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## BentMikey (23 Jan 2010)

For goodness sake, some of you lot are a right bunch of OTT class monitors. Are you wearing your badge?


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## classic33 (23 Jan 2010)

One thing that seems to be missing here is the fact that the legislation relates largely to rotating lights, not strobe/flashing lights.

I've been stopped by the police whilst I've had a flashing blue light fitted to the rear & in use. There concern was the type of pedal cycle in use, not the lights. 

Argos have sold them, has as Asda. If they were illegal would their sale be permittedby retailers such as these?


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## PBancroft (23 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> For goodness sake, some of you lot are a right bunch of OTT class monitors. Are you wearing your badge?



Yes. It says "My name is Robert Paulson."


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> One thing that seems to be missing here is the fact that the legislation relates largely to rotating lights, not strobe/flashing lights.
> 
> I've been stopped by the police whilst I've had a flashing blue light fitted to the rear & in use. There concern was the type of pedal cycle in use, not the lights.
> 
> Argos have sold them, has as Asda.* If they were illegal would their sale be permittedby retailers such as these*?



There were, are, all sorts of things that can be bought but not legal to use. Going back in time AM CB radios were a case in point - they could be openly bought but their use was illegal.

I'm fairly sure it's legal to buy a rotating blue light, DJs use them, but if you fit one to your car and use it then it becomes illegal.


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## Debian (23 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> For goodness sake, some of you lot are a right bunch of OTT class monitors. Are you wearing your badge?



That's very condescending.

Debating the legality / /efficacy / practicality of something is OTT suddenly?


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## hackbike 666 (23 Jan 2010)

BentMikey said:


> For goodness sake, some of you lot are a right bunch of OTT class monitors. Are you wearing your badge?



Hmmmmmmmmmm.


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## Arch (23 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> Argos have sold them, has as Asda. If they were illegal would their sale be permittedby retailers such as these?



I remember years back, when phones first started to be sold in shops, as opposed to just supplied by BT, there were phones that were legal to connect to your landline and some that were't, and they were marked as such in catalogues. But the illegal ones were still for sale.


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## GrasB (23 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> Argos have sold them, has as Asda. If they were illegal would their sale be permittedby retailers such as these?


Retro-fit HID conversion are illegal but are sold in the UK by UK suppliers. There are many illegal car & motorbike lights sold in the UK without any warning that they're not for highway use etc. Just because they're marketed for bikes doesn't mean you can legally use them on the roads.


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## mr_hippo (23 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> A green light would probably be more useful, as I think it's the colour that humans can see the easiest......that could be complete rubbish though


Sorry but green lights are used by doctors on emergency calls - very rarely seen.


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## thomas (23 Jan 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> Sorry but green lights are used by doctors on emergency calls - very rarely seen.





I wasn't actually suggesting using it, I just seem to remember than green is the colour picked up easiest by the human eye. Not sure I've ever seen a doctor using green light.


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## Muddyfox (23 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> I wasn't actually suggesting using it, I just seem to remember than green is the colour picked up easiest by the human eye. Not sure I've ever seen a doctor using green light.



Our Devon doctors service use Nissan X-Trails with large green lights on the roof and i believe that some of our GP's have magnetic green revolving lights for their private cars 

My son's front bicycle light has a green tinge to it, its only a small 3 LED one and it is very effective at catching your eye


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## 139NI (23 Jan 2010)

thegrumpybiker said:


> Let's get real. One small eye-catching constant blue light surrounded by much brighter reds, which is my intended set-up, is highly unlikely to be mistaken for someone riding in the opposite direction I think. Or even as an emergency vehicle.



My friend..... get a green one or any colour except blue...please??

Blue is reserved for police, ambulance, fire........et al. Thats the way the general public expect it - its a convention that shouldn't be crossed.

if you want to stand out in the crowd [and i understand you are trying to keep from harm - i also note you are placing the blue light at the rear] practice riding in a way which stands you out and asserts your position on the road.. At night, you will cause confusion cos peoples perception of depth and distance diminishes - they will expect you to be oncoming whereas you are actually moving away when you are seen.

Like i mentioned earlier, what if we cyclists [and then cars, SUVs] and everybody decided to use a blue light somewhere on their vehicle?

in any case, you'll look silly, particularly if a motorist gets annoyed after they suss you out and decide to give you a close drive by after you have kept them following you in fear that you are police?


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## mr_hippo (24 Jan 2010)

139NI said:


> My friend..... get a green one or any colour except blue...please??


Please see previous few posts - green - reserved for doctors.


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## Debian (24 Jan 2010)

Kaipaith said:


> Would you really though... and if you genuinely would (a blind est would be ideal, but I guess we can trust your word ) what about everyone else?
> 
> If I saw, say, a green light (but obviously not a traffic light) I think I probably would think "WTF?" for a moment before slowing down.



I agree with Kaipath.

Why do people feel the need to have other than red lights at the rear anyway? I've only ever used one or maybe two decent red rear lights for years almost beyond count and I've never had a problem with any other road user not seeing me.

So why the need in some peoples minds?


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## hackbike 666 (24 Jan 2010)

Im not into this blue light on the rear lark so if I am that paranoid about if I can be seen I have 4 lights on my bag and one on my bike.Im sure that does as good a job.

Even had a cyclist remark on it last week.



Debian said:


> That's very condescending.
> 
> Debating the legality / /efficacy / practicality of something is OTT suddenly?




It's BM he's our form tutor.


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## downfader (24 Jan 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> Sorry but green lights are used by doctors on emergency calls - very rarely seen.



Have just checked the legislation and it only says its "allowed" nothing about being reserved. 

I've never actually seen one in use around here tbh  There was a case a few years back where a doctor or paramedic on a motorcycle was told he was not allowed to exceed the speed limit even though he was using a green light. I beleive it ended up in court for some reason...


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## Muddyfox (24 Jan 2010)

Ambulance driver is prosecuted for speeding

The above link is the Ambulance driver that Lincolnshire Police charged with speeding whilst delivering a Liver for a transplant operation, he was in an official car with blue lights and siren 

Its no wonder that the police in the UK are on the whole disliked and not trusted 

Simon


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## Vikeonabike (24 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> Ambulance driver is prosecuted for speeding
> 
> The above link is the Ambulance driver that Lincolnshire Police charged with speeding whilst delivering a Liver for a transplant operation, he was in an official car with blue lights and siren
> 
> ...



Not the Police. The speed camera results are the responsibility of the Safety Camera Partnership and go directly too the CPS..
The charge was dropped and this happened in 2003

Besides it's completely off topic and nothing to do with using blue lights on your bike!


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## Muddyfox (24 Jan 2010)

Vikeonabike said:


> Besides it's completely off topic and nothing to do with using blue lights on your bike!



It was in response to Downfaders comment about a paramedic being prosecuted  Are we still discussing blue lights ? or have we now moved onto green ? 

Simon


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## BentMikey (24 Jan 2010)

It's not the commenting on legality/whatever that's the problem, it's the ridiculous amount of hyperbole and "you are an ax-murderer if you use blue lights" type of comments that are so way over the top.


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## thomas (24 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> It was in response to Downfaders comment about a paramedic being prosecuted  Are we still discussing blue lights ? or have we now moved onto green ?



Nah, I think we're onto lights which flash every colour of the rainbow now while playing RESPECT.


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## classic33 (24 Jan 2010)

Question.
If people are against others using flashing blue light on the grounds that they could cause confusion, leading othes on the road to think you may be one of the emergency services. How do they feel about people confusing their flasing red lights for a Highways Agency vehicle? After all they use flashing red lights on some of their vehicles.


Taken from
http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/information/bluelightuse.htm#Blue_Light_Exemptions

"_*All lights should be of British Standard 

All lights for normal night driving should be switched on by one switch (including headlights, side markers and rear registration lights). 

To use a vehicle that that doesn’t go above 25 mph on a normal dual carriageway you need to fit an amber flashing light. *_"

Where does that leave us cyclists. Anyone go that fast all the time


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## Muddyfox (24 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> How do they feel about people confusing their flasing red lights for a Highways Agency vehicle? After all they use flashing red lights on some of their vehicles.
> 
> To use a vehicle that that doesn’t go above 25 mph on a normal dual carriageway you need to fit an amber flashing light. [/B][/I]"
> 
> Where does that leave us cyclists. Anyone go that fast all the time



The police also have 2 flashing red lights on their roof mounted light bars for when they are at an incident on the Highways 

As for the amber lights for vehicles travelling at under 25mph ... this'l be for motorised vehicles like agricultural tractors etc etc 

(its all getting abit anal now is'nt it)

Simon


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## classic33 (24 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> The police also have 2 flashing red lights on their roof mounted light bars for when they are at an incident on the Highways
> 
> As for the amber lights for vehicles travelling at under 25mph ... this'l be for motorised vehicles like agricultural tractors etc etc
> 
> ...



Not just for tractors, but all vehicles. How many tactors can't go faster than 25mph?

Your right on the last part though.


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## Debian (24 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> Question.
> If people are against others using flashing blue light on the grounds that they could cause confusion, leading othes on the road to think you may be one of the emergency services. *How do they feel about people confusing their flasing red lights for a Highways Agency vehicle*? After all they use flashing red lights on some of their vehicles.


*
You can’t have a flashing light except for*:

indicators

headlights on an emergency vehicle

flashing lights as described above (on emergency vehicles and vehicles permitted to show other coloured flashing lights)

a light or sign on a vehicle used for police purposes

a green light used as an anti-lock braking indicator

lights on a traffic sign attached to a vehicle

*flashing white lights on the front of a cycle

flashing red lights on the back of a cycle*


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## Debian (24 Jan 2010)

classic33 said:


> Not just for tractors, but all vehicles. How many tactors can't go faster than 25mph?
> 
> Your right on the last part though.



It's not for the maximum speed but for the actual speed travelled at.


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## classic33 (24 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> It's not for the maximum speed but for the actual speed travelled at.



No its for the fastest speed the vehicle is capable of, on the open road,


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## Muddyfox (24 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> It's not for the maximum speed but for the actual speed travelled at.



If this was the case then most of the over 70's would need flashing orange beacons on their nissan micra's 

Some of the modern tractors are now capable of travelling at over 25mph ... Fendt ~ Deutz and JCB Fastrac to name a few


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## Debian (24 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> *If this was the case then most of the over 70's would need flashing orange beacons on their nissan micra's*
> 
> Some of the modern tractors are now capable of travelling at over 25mph ... Fendt ~ Deutz and JCB Fastrac to name a few



This is true of course, and logical, good call


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## Jezston (25 Jan 2010)

I bought some cheap lights to put on my clunker whilst I wait for my insurance to come through. Was surprised to read on the instructions stating that you are not to use flashing mode when riding on the road. What?


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## thomas (25 Jan 2010)

Jezston said:


> I bought some cheap lights to put on my clunker whilst I wait for my insurance to come through. Was surprised to read on the instructions stating that you are not to use flashing mode when riding on the road. What?




Perhaps old packaging, as in the past flashing lights weren't allowed?


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## mr_hippo (30 Jan 2010)

Just a thought! Flashing blue lights are emergency services but what about steady blue lights? I know the law will have to be changed but a bar of 5 blue LEDs mounted vertically on the seat stays or panniers and only used in conjuction with a steady red light.


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## Vikeonabike (30 Jan 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> Just a thought! Flashing blue lights are emergency services but what about steady blue lights? I know the law will have to be changed but a bar of 5 blue LEDs mounted vertically on the seat stays or panniers and only used in conjuction with a steady red light.




Nope. Other than red tail light (including brake), a reversing light or indicator you cannot have a light of any other colour on a vehicle *facing to the rear!*


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## Muddyfox (30 Jan 2010)

Vikeonabike said:


> Nope. Other than red tail light (including brake), a reversing light or indicator you cannot have a light of any other colour on a vehicle *facing to the rear!*



I think the moral of the story is ... if you want Blue lights join the Police 

Simon


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## Debian (30 Jan 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> Just a thought! Flashing blue lights are emergency services but what about steady blue lights? I know the law will have to be changed but a bar of 5 blue LEDs mounted vertically on the seat stays or panniers and only used in conjuction with a steady red light.



I repeat: why the fascination with blue, or any other colour lights? What's wrong with red? Why does anyone think they'll more noticeable / safer with blue lights? Can someone give me an explanation? I've already given my opinion that they're, if anything, less safe.

Why not have a bar of red LEDs?

Again to repeat, I've only ever used one, or sometimes two decent red lights and I've never had a problem with not being seen.

So, why blue?


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## thomas (30 Jan 2010)

Debian said:


> I repeat: why the fascination with blue, or any other colour lights? What's wrong with red? Why does anyone think they'll more noticeable / safer with blue lights? Can someone give me an explanation? I've already given my opinion that they're, if anything, less safe.
> 
> Why not have a bar of red LEDs?
> 
> ...



I think because it's a colour that people don't expect from a cyclist so they'll act differently around you.

Personally, I'm more than happy with some red rears and white fronts.


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## GrasB (30 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> I think because it's a colour that people don't expect from a cyclist so they'll act differently around you.
> 
> Personally, I'm more than happy with some red rears and white fronts.


Thing is most people who don't give a s**t (the ones that you're trying to change the behaviour of) once they realise you're a cyclist act like they always do anyway & all you're doing is confusing the more considerate motorists. Basically people are trying to use lights as a substitute for proper &/or more defensive road positioning.


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## Debian (30 Jan 2010)

GrasB said:


> Thing is most people who don't give a s**t (the ones that you're trying to change the behaviour of) once they realise you're a cyclist act like they always do anyway & all you're doing is confusing the more considerate motorists. *Basically people are trying to use lights as a substitute for proper &/or more defensive road positioning*.



Perhaps this is part of the reason I get no hassle, or very little anyway. I ride very assertively; I'm normally well into the nearside wheel track area, if I need to pass an obstruction I drift out early and gradually rather than pull out at the last second and I always pass parked vehicles a doors width away. I have no hesitation taking primary at the least need.

I don't find many motorists at all taking offence.


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## mr_hippo (30 Jan 2010)

Vikeonabike said:


> Nope. Other than red tail light (including brake), a reversing light or indicator you cannot have a light of any other colour on a vehicle *facing to the rear!*



Why do you think I said "I know the law will have to be changed..."? There was a change in the law when LEDs were permitted.


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## Muddyfox (30 Jan 2010)

mr_hippo said:


> Why do you think I said "I know the law will have to be changed..."? There was a change in the law when LEDs were permitted.



But why would you want a Blue light ?

If you fit something like a Cateye LD1100 or Smart 1/2 watt you dont need anything else on the back .. they blind car drivers so they stay well off your rear end 

Would a blue light make you feel more important or something ?

Simon


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## mr_hippo (30 Jan 2010)

Jakes Dad said:


> But why would you want a Blue light ?
> 
> If you fit something like a Cateye LD1100 or Smart 1/2 watt you dont need anything else on the back .. they blind car drivers so they stay well off your rear end
> 
> ...


Why would I want a blue light ? I don't, I am quite happy with my present setup but others feel that they are invisible even if lit up like one of Blackpool's illuminated trams!
"... they blind car drivers..." If they do then, please, adjust them.


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## Crankarm (30 Jan 2010)

Jeese is this thread still going!!! How thick are people to still be arguing that using blue lights if you are not a police officer or part of the emergency services is acceptable or permitted by law. It isn't period . Move on and get over it. Get some decent red and white lights instead.


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## joebingo (31 Jan 2010)

I've got a Cateye LD1100, and since using it, I've had zero close overtakes in the dark and people stay behind me until it's safe to overtake me.

This is, of course, coupled with my use of a strong secondary, and primary positions.

Using other couloured lights is pointless, confusing and illegal. Don't do it.


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## thomas (31 Jan 2010)

GrasB said:


> Thing is most people who don't give a s**t (the ones that you're trying to change the behaviour of) once they realise you're a cyclist act like they always do anyway & all you're doing is confusing the more considerate motorists. *Basically people are trying to use lights as a substitute for proper &/or more defensive road positioning.*




If you had a blue light, the ones who don't give a shoot might confuse them for a copper and then care. But yeah, good road positions (and normal lights) seems to stop most nutters.

anyway.,....like crankarm said. Let's get some new topics and stop waffling on about blue lights  (damn you downfader )


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## downfader (31 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> damn you downfader



I know.Even I'm cursing myself now... how do we get this locked..?


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## thomas (31 Jan 2010)

downfader said:


> I know.Even I'm cursing myself now... how do we get this locked..?




Make some sexist jokes? Maybe we could just flame each other?


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## downfader (31 Jan 2010)

thomas said:


> Make some sexist jokes? Maybe we could just flame each other?



Dirty boy! 

Have you heard the one about the octopus and the 8 prostitutes...?








...sadly I havent as me uncle passed out before the punchline (p***ed one christmas)


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