# Restrictions on cyclists now being discussed at Ministerial level.



## PaulB (17 Aug 2022)

I don't know if this is serious enough to warrant posting in the news and current affairs thread but it certainly bothered me enough to bring attention to it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-registration-numbers-insurance.html#comments

I despise the Heil but the old adage of you should keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer - so you know what the buggers are up to, is more relevant than ever so I was particularly concerned about this. 

This cycling-hating rag is claiming ministers are looking at ways to restrict our freedoms and introduce speed limits on bikes. In order to persecute - and prosecute - the miscreants, bikes will need a form of ID so they can receive appropriate punishment. That ID is to be a visible registration number. This is being discussed by Grant Shapps at the department of Transport. Doubtless to give his tory acolytes something to cheer.

The Guardian think it's worth noting as well. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-for-cyclists-on-table-in-review-of-road-laws


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## alicat (17 Aug 2022)

Thread closure in 3....2....1.....


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## Hover Fly (17 Aug 2022)

It’s been proposed before, it’s been dismissed as impracticable before.


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## ianrauk (17 Aug 2022)

Totally unworkable. It would cost millions to implement and enforce.
And what about little Jimmy aged 5 getting his first bike, would he have to registration for his? 
It would just be ignored by the cycle owning populace.


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## Joffey (17 Aug 2022)

It was a bad news day for Truss and the current Government, what with the Cost of Living and inflations predicted to rise to over 10%. So The Mail can't report on that, so they go for the cyclists again.

I don't believe a word. It is just deflection and the stoking up of culture wars. It will never happen. And these ministers might not even be around in a month.


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## roubaixtuesday (17 Aug 2022)

Joffey said:


> It is just deflection and the stoking up of culture wars.



True, but it also adds to the general climate with more motorists believing cyclists are not entitled to exist, so more of us intimidated, injured and dead. 

These people are absolutely without any moral compass. It saddens me they have supporters.


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## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

I read a couple of paragraphs, its the daily mail, its the usual drivel.


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## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

This is from 2016.

https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2016-06-07/39576


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## markemark (17 Aug 2022)

It’s an interview from Shapps to the DM telling them what they wanted to hear from a man who’ll be out of a job as the transport secretary in a couple of weeks.


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## PeteXXX (17 Aug 2022)

I wonder, if it ever happens..., whether you will be able to get personalised plates? 
B 0 NK
CR 4 NK


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## PeteXXX (17 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> It’s an interview from Shapps to the DM telling them what they wanted to hear from a man who’ll be out of a job as the transport secretary in a couple of weeks.



But, apparently, he's going to forward the idea to the new Transport Minister who will hopefully kick it into the long grass.


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## PaulB (17 Aug 2022)

Well it's made the Guardian and was/is on the headlines on GMTV so it's too big to ignore now.


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## Joffey (17 Aug 2022)

PaulB said:


> Well it's made the Guardian and was/is on the headlines on GMTV so it's too big to ignore now.



It'll be ignored tomorrow when the news overtakes this story and we are all talking about inflation again.

It will never happen - despite what we see in newspapers.


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## Rooster1 (17 Aug 2022)

Unreal. Speed breaking, red light jumping ?? !!!!


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## Beebo (17 Aug 2022)

RIP Darius


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## fossyant (17 Aug 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> I wonder, if it ever happens..., whether you will be able to get personalised plates?
> B 0 NK
> CR 4 NK



I want TANK 1 for my commuter MTB. It's dented a few cars in it's time !


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## Rooster1 (17 Aug 2022)

Beebo said:


> RIP Darius



Well yes, indeed.


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## Slick (17 Aug 2022)

Yeah cos we are the problem.


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## T4tomo (17 Aug 2022)

I reckon Grant Shapps never learned to ride a bike because his mum didnt want him to scape his knees, and as a consequence was bullied rotten at school. its the only logical explanation for this bollocks. fortunately the incidents of cyclist seriously hurting or injuring pedestrians through excessive speed or being pissed (sure drink "ride" limits were mentioned somewhere) or anything else for that matter are very rare indeed.

Motorised vehicles are the biggest risk by far to pedestrians.

Maybe all horse should have number plates?


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## Cycleops (17 Aug 2022)

Sledgehammer to crack a nut. It’ll never happen. Cyclists are now a powerful group so the there will be a huge backlash.
How will it be enforced? Will there be a special roads division with coppers on bikes with flashing lights to pull over miscreants? Will bikes be seized if riders don’t have the correct documents? it’s too comical to contemplate.


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## roubaixtuesday (17 Aug 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Sledgehammer to crack a nut. *It’ll never happen*. Cyclists are now a powerful group so the there will be a huge backlash.
> How will it be enforced? Will there be a special roads division with coppers on bikes with flashing lights to pull over miscreants? Will bikes be seized if riders don’t have the correct documents? it’s too comical to contemplate.



The purpose is not to make it happen.

It's to generate support through stoking hatred of an out group.

In case anyone hasn't been paying attention, this has been the prime strategy of government for over a decade.


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## fossyant (17 Aug 2022)

Might just ask my son to knock a 'fake' rag plate up for me with his vinyl printer/cutter thingy ! 👅


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## al78 (17 Aug 2022)

Can't vouch for the truth given it is Yahoo but more fuel for the anti-cyclist brigade:

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/grant-shapps-considering-creating-20mph-010013451.html

"Transport Secretary Grant Shapps has flagged changing road laws so cyclists have to abide by 20mph speed limits or face penalties.

Less than a fortnight after vowing to create a “death by dangerous cycling” law that will treat killer cyclists the same as motorists, Mr Shapps said he wanted to stop certain behaviour on the roads.

The Welwyn Hatfield MP told the Daily Mail: “Somewhere where cyclists are actually not breaking the law is when they speed, and that cannot be right, so I absolutely propose extending speed limit restrictions to cyclists."

“Particularly where you’ve got 20mph limits on increasing numbers of roads, cyclists can easily exceed those, so I want to make speed limits apply to cyclists.

“That obviously does then lead you into the question of: ‘Well, how are you going to recognise the cyclist? Do you need registration plates and insurance? And that sort of thing.’

“So I’m proposing there should be a review of insurance and how you actually track cyclists who do break the laws.”


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## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

So @al78 - are you with the cats or the pigeons?


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## Jody (17 Aug 2022)

There is a thread already discussing this.

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/r...-being-discussed-at-ministerial-level.287133/


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## dan_bo (17 Aug 2022)

Yawn. Bait. Noise. Bollox.


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## ianrauk (17 Aug 2022)

Cat thrown amongst pigeons discussing meaningful thread titles.


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## GilesM (17 Aug 2022)

Think about it, it's not going to happen, there has been quite a bit of stuff about 20mph speed limits in towns and villages in the news recently, and people have asked a logical question as to how will this work with cyclists, and will the limit be enforced for cyclists, Mr S has just come out with a bit of ill thought out stuff (politicians do that) in answer to a simple question. The irony is that we have had 20mph speed limits in most towns and villages up here for a couple of years now, and I don't think the new limit is enforced anywhere, the only fixed speed camera I know of that is now in a 20mph limit (heading south on the A68 opposite the Coop/petrol station in Lauder) has been covered since the new limit was introduced.


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## Jon George (17 Aug 2022)

I think the opposition should propose a motion that if a cabinet minister slaps a dead cat on the table to deflect the media, they should be sanctioned by The Speaker and get three penalty points. 12 and they lose their position in government.


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## Sharky (17 Aug 2022)

I'm sure I read many many years ago that cyclists cannot be prosecuted for breeching speed limits as they do not have speedometers as a compulsory component on their bicycle. So no way of knowing what speed they are traveling at. 

There are other legal loopholes that can be used (riding furiously etc), but not specifically for speeding. 

Not sure if today's bike computers displaying current speed might invalidate this theory.


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## MichaelW2 (17 Aug 2022)

"Pedestrian hospitalized by bicycle number plate"
Yesterday, an ambulance was called to take pensioner Fred Dumbledy to A&E with a nast cut to his leg. A cyclist passing on the mixed use cycle pedestrian crossing clipped the pensioner with the edge of his newly installed number plate. Minister Grant Shapps said " we expect quite a few of these inuries until cyclists and pedestrians get used to the thin metal number plates sticking out from bicycles.


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## GilesM (17 Aug 2022)

MichaelW2 said:


> "Pedestrian hospitalized by bicycle number plate"
> Yesterday, an ambulance was called to take pensioner Fred Dumbledy to A&E with a nast cut to his leg. A cyclist passing on the mixed use cycle pedestrian crossing clipped the pensioner with the edge of his newly installed number plate. Minister Grant Shapps said " we expect quite a few of these inuries until cyclists and pedestrians get used to the thin metal number plates sticking out from bicycles.



I think we will need the old style front mudguard ones motorbikes used to have.


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## numbnuts (17 Aug 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> I wonder, if it ever happens..., whether you will be able to get personalised plates?
> B 0 NK
> CR 4 NK


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## craigwend (17 Aug 2022)

Think of the children


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## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

Sharky said:


> I'm sure I read many many years ago that cyclists cannot be prosecuted for breeching speed limits as they do not have speedometers as a compulsory component on their bicycle. So no way of knowing what speed they are traveling at.
> 
> There are other legal loopholes that can be used (riding furiously etc), but not specifically for speeding.
> 
> Not sure if today's bike computers displaying current speed might invalidate this theory.



There is no requirement to have such a computer on your bike.

The current law specifies "motor vehicles" in the speeding section, which is why it doesn't apply to bikes. Shapps appears to be proposing to change that so it includes bicycles.

But the odds are he won't be transport minister any more after next month, and he is most likely well aware of the practical difficulties in attempting to change this. It WOULD require some form of visible identification, which most existing bikes don't have the capability of carrying. It would probably also require bikes to have an operative speed indicator of some sort.

This is just an attention seeking statement by him, hoping to gain enough visibility to have some ministerial post under whoever becomes the new PM.


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## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

GilesM said:


> I think we will need the old style front mudguard ones motorbikes used to have.



But speed cameras will not be able to see those. 

And many modern road bikes don't have the capability to take mudguards to fit them on


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## markemark (17 Aug 2022)

Sharky said:


> I'm sure I read many many years ago that cyclists cannot be prosecuted for breeching speed limits as they do not have speedometers as a compulsory component on their bicycle. So no way of knowing what speed they are traveling at.



Although the story is just nonsense and come to nothing, the lack of speedometer would not be a barrier any more than the lack of alcohol detectors in cars stop there being legal limits as to when you can drive or not.


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## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

ianrauk said:


> Cat thrown amongst pigeons discussing meaningful thread titles.



Nailed it!


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## youngoldbloke (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> But speed cameras will not be able to see those.
> 
> And many modern road bikes don't have the capability to take mudguards to fit them on



Maybe a bar code tattooed on our foreheads after we pass the highway code test and show our insurance papers?


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## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

Why don't they just fit a tachograph ?


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## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

GilesM said:


> I think we will need the old style front mudguard ones motorbikes used to have.



They stopped using them because of the injuries they were causing in collisions.


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## Cycleops (17 Aug 2022)

MichaelW2 said:


> "Pedestrian hospitalized by bicycle number plate"
> Yesterday, an ambulance was called to take pensioner Fred Dumbledy to A&E with a nast cut to his leg. A cyclist passing on the mixed use cycle pedestrian crossing clipped the pensioner with the edge of his newly installed number plate. Minister Grant Shapps said " we expect quite a few of these inuries until cyclists and pedestrians get used to the thin metal number plates sticking out from bicycles.


You jest but this was why front number plates on motorbikes were removed.


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## Cycleops (17 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> Maybe a bar code tattooed on our foreheads after we pass the highway code test and show our insurance papers?


Maybe some of the tattoo advocates on here would welcome this


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## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> It’s an interview from Shapps to the DM telling them what they wanted to hear from a man who’ll be out of a job as the transport secretary in a couple of weeks.



Is that what he does ?


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## ebikeerwidnes (17 Aug 2022)

He also said that cyclists can easily exceed the new 10 mph speed limits
OK mate let's put you and Boris on a nice flat road and see you do , even on a legal ebike
Generally ride my bike at around 15 to 16 mph and only very good road bike riders pass me

Still. Good fodder for the red faced angry brigade

Morons


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## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> He also said that cyclists can easily exceed the new 10 mph speed limits
> OK mate let's put you and Boris on a nice flat road and see you do , even on a legal ebike
> Generally ride my bike at around 15 to 16 mph and only very good road bike riders pass me
> 
> ...



There are a number of 20 limits that I regularly exceed currently - with the law changing in Wales in September 2023 to make 20 the default for restricted roads, there will be a lot more such places.

Even on the flat, it isn't hard for a competent road cyclist to hit 20 mph for short periods, and a slight downhill you will normally do so.


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## ebikeerwidnes (17 Aug 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Maybe some of the tattoo advocates on here would welcome this



Many years ago I had a Tetris game that was really good and freeware
To play it you had to see a screen telling you to watch out because the "end times " where coming and soon we would all be required to have a bar code on our foreheads which,of course, was the mark of the beast
Maybe THIS IS IT!!!!!!!!


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## al78 (17 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> So @al78 - are you with the cats or the pigeons?



Aligned with the pigeons, but I'm not that concerned. There will be a lot of complications to overcome before it is possible to make bicycles more like motor vehicles legally, and I think the government has more important things to concentrate on at the moment.


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## PeteXXX (17 Aug 2022)

Illaveago said:


> Why don't they just fit a tachograph ?



4½ hours riding the 45 minutes rest.. 👍


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## TheDoctor (17 Aug 2022)

Has he ever tried riding a bike at 20+ mph? Or 30+?
Any time I've been above 35 mph, I've had a hill providing the power.


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## biking_fox (17 Aug 2022)

*dead cat* among the pigeons

Yet another attempt at government by soundbite and mis-direction. Won't even start let along get off the ground. Will distract (again a little bit) from the rest of gov doing absolutely nothing despite being paid a fortune, corruption et al.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_... cat stategy, also,or failures in other areas.


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## gbb (17 Aug 2022)

To be fair, a 20 mph limit is there for (you'd hope) a good reason, near a school, a particually dangerous spot for whatever reason. A cyclist has no more moral or legal right to break that speed limit than a car, lorry, bus or anything else. To do so would deserve condemnation.

But the reality is, 95% of cyclist couldnt or wouldnt break that speed limit (some of us do actually have common sense) so its a bit of clickbait, a diversion, pandering to a audience, whatever...as soon as you start to regulate cyclists, many of them will either disappear (stop cycling) or ignore the regulation (in whatever form, licencing, plates etc) ...and nothing good will be achieved.

If you did regulate, how would you enforce ? Police officers with speed cameras ? They can't even make a dent in scooter riders on the road ...as DanBo says...


dan_bo said:


> Yawn. Bait. Noise. Bollox.


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## al78 (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There are a number of 20 limits that I regularly exceed currently - with the law changing in Wales in September 2023 to make 20 the default for restricted roads, there will be a lot more such places.
> 
> Even on the flat, it isn't hard for a competent road cyclist to hit 20 mph for short periods, and a slight downhill you will normally do so.



Yep, Farthings Hill heading into Horsham from Broadbridge Heath you can get over 25 mph easily, fast enough to trigger the flashing slow down sign on approach to the roundabout.


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## Mo1959 (17 Aug 2022)

So will I need 9 different number plates and insurance for each bike or would it be the person the number plate and insurance applied to if it ever actually comes to pass. Shame I'm regularly still seeing motorists driving around with mobiles clutched to their heads and feck all done about it!


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## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> Has he ever tried riding a bike at 20+ mph? Or 30+?
> Any time I've been above 35 mph, I've had a hill providing the power.



Cor! I can only achieve walking pace up hill !


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## al78 (17 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> He also said that cyclists can easily exceed the new 10 mph speed limits
> OK mate let's put you and Boris on a nice flat road and see you do , even on a legal ebike
> Generally ride my bike at around 15 to 16 mph and only very good road bike riders pass me
> 
> ...



In my experience very few cyclists in and around my home town reach 20 mph. It is against the law in Horsham to do anything quickly, which is why road works with temporary traffic lights must take a minimum of a month, an open doorway is the best place to stop and have a conversation, and if you are walking a dog, you must consume the full width of any path no matter how wide it is whilst walking at a quarter of the average walking pace.


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## classic33 (17 Aug 2022)

Where would the number plate go on a unicycle.


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## Juan Kog (17 Aug 2022)

I have cycled at 20 mph in a 20 mph zone ( it was downhill) and been overtaken by cars . Too the car drivers the speed limit didn’t count, it’s an old bloke on a bike MUST get past .


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## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Might just ask my son to knock a 'fake' rag plate up for me with his vinyl printer/cutter thingy ! 👅



Oh no! That would have to go to specialist places where you would have to provide documentation , driver's licence , utility bills ! 

I wonder if the number plate would need a light?


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## Milkfloat (17 Aug 2022)

We all know that this is entirely unworkable and would decimate cycling just when the country needs it the most, but look who is in charge and who is going to be in charge next month. It is entirely feasible they ram this populist nonsense through.


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## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

How about joggers? They can shift at times and would cause a similar injury if they bumped into a pedestrian ?


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## hoopdriver (17 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> Although the story is just nonsense and come to nothing, the lack of speedometer would not be a barrier any more than the lack of alcohol detectors in cars stop there being legal limits as to when you can drive or not.



Not at all. Motorists have most definitely been able to overturn speeding tickets when, for example, it can’t be established that the speed camera was set up properly. It is a quantifiable matter. There is also a legally mandated leeway on speeding offences of a couple of miles per hour in recognition if the fact that speedometers may vary. Which means you’d be looking at 22 or 23mph before you could get fined - which is really hauling it.

i suspect a lot of people who imagine they are seeing a recklessly fast cyclist are seeing somebody doing 16-18mph

Drinking is entirely different. You know when you’ve been drinking. It’s a risk you take, or not.


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## markemark (17 Aug 2022)

gbb said:


> To be fair, a 20 mph limit is there for (you'd hope) a good reason, near a school, a particually dangerous spot for whatever reason. A cyclist has no more moral or legal right to break that speed limit than a car, lorry, bus or anything else. To do so would deserve condemnation.
> 
> But the reality is, 95% of cyclist couldnt or wouldnt break that speed limit (some of us do actually have common sense) so its a bit of clickbait, a diversion, pandering to a audience, whatever...as soon as you start to regulate cyclists, many of them will either disappear (stop cycling) or ignore the regulation (in whatever form, licencing, plates etc) ...and nothing good will be achieved.
> 
> If you did regulate, how would you enforce ? Police officers with speed cameras ? They can't even make a dent in scooter riders on the road ...as DanBo says...


The 20mph limit does little to stop the number of crashes. It does however , do a lot to limit the severity of any crash. As the severity of being hit by a cyclist is negligible compared to a car it make little sense to make cyclists follow the same speed limit. 

A more logical approach would be momentum. As cars weigh about 20times that of a cyclist we should be able to cycle at 400mph… something I can only do on my road bike.


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## wiggydiggy (17 Aug 2022)

Beebo said:


> RIP Darius



I think that's the more important story there.

He presented a couple of radio shows as a stand in DJ from time to time, I enjoyed them.


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## ebikeerwidnes (17 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> Where would the number plate go on a unicycle.



I have an idea but this is a family site


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## markemark (17 Aug 2022)

hoopdriver said:


> Not at all. Motorists have most definitely been able to overturn speeding tickets when, for example, it can’t be established that the speed camera was set up properly. It is a quantifiable matter. There is also a legally mandated leeway on speeding offences of a couple of miles per hour in recognition if the fact that speedometers may vary. Which means you’d be looking at 22 or 23mph before you could get fined - which is really hauling it.
> 
> i suspect a lot of people who imagine they are seeing a recklessly fast cyclist are seeing somebody doing 16-18mph
> 
> Drinking is entirely different. You know when you’ve been drinking. It’s a risk you take, or not.



That tolerance is being nice to the poor motorist. You not being able to measure the limit does not mean the limit exists. There are legal limits for blood alcohol. Your car cannot measure it. But the limit is stilll there. It was suggested that cars have it built in, ie car not worky if over the limit. Never brought in as it’ll give some people a target, ie ooh I can have another pint as I’m fine.


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## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

This was first in the news on August 6th. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62444889
Interesting that the Mail bumped it up again today/yesterday ...


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## Andy in Germany (17 Aug 2022)

Apply strict liability in the same way as they do here; problem solved.


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## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> The 20mph limit does little to stop the number of crashes. It does however , do a lot to limit the severity of any crash. As the severity of being hit by a cyclist is negligible compared to a care it make little sense to make cyclists follow the same speed limit.
> 
> A more logical approach would be momentum. As cars weigh about 20times that of a cyclist would should be able to cycle at 400mph…



Well put. HGVs have extra limitations over cars - for good reason. See also: planes, tractors, etc etc ...

And we don't have special laws for every situation that kills about 1 person every 2 years (accidentally).


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## Illaveago (17 Aug 2022)

Air bags for cyclists !


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2022)

Given the fecks up with track and trace and basically every scheme which involves this government collecting, and safely securing people data - I quite like this scheme for the novelty value and chaos it would cause before slowly and quietly dying.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2022)

At least he hasn't mentioned compulsory helmets.


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## numbnuts (17 Aug 2022)

For this to work a speedometer fitted by a qualified person and have to be calabrated too by a MOT tester or the like


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## fossyant (17 Aug 2022)

Slow news day, Boris is frightening the resident's of Greece by sunning himself on the beach, press are bored of the war(s), so, yeh get the cyclist scum !


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## dan_bo (17 Aug 2022)

It's news cycle control nothing more. Inflation at 20% noooo let's talk about cyclists instead. 

Rattle the keys.


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## potsy (17 Aug 2022)

Are the speedometers fitted in the factory or do we have to have them put on ourselves? 
Ridiculous none story, never would of happened if Boris was still in charge


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## nickyboy (17 Aug 2022)

There was some other thread a while back about cyclists exceeding the speed limit. There is a 20mph maximum zone near to me with traffic calming. It is 20mph because there is a primary school in the zone. The zone is on a hill and cyclists can easily exceed the speed limit. If you look at the Strava data (admittedly this is a subset of all cyclists), most exceed the speed limit. Practically all of these will have a gps device which displays speed

My position was that (a) doing more than 20mph past a primary school on a bike isn't sensible (b) all road users should be subject to broadly the same basic regulations re speed, intoxication etc


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## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> My position was that (a) doing more than 20mph past a primary school on a bike isn't sensible (b) all road users should be subject to broadly the same basic regulations re speed, intoxication etc



HGV drivers same regs as pedestrians?

Horses same as motorcycles?

Hovercrafts and eels? :P


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## Solocle (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> There was some other thread a while back about cyclists exceeding the speed limit. There is a 20mph maximum zone near to me with traffic calming. It is 20mph because there is a primary school in the zone. The zone is on a hill and cyclists can easily exceed the speed limit. If you look at the Strava data (admittedly this is a subset of all cyclists), most exceed the speed limit. Practically all of these will have a gps device which displays speed
> 
> My position was that (a) doing more than 20mph past a primary school on a bike isn't sensible (b) all road users should be subject to broadly the same basic regulations re speed, intoxication etc



The law is that it is unlawful to drive a *motor vehicle *above the speed limit. Nothing to do with speedometer or lack thereof.

It remains incumbent on all road users to do a safe speed for the conditions. School, so what? It's the school holidays.

Speed limits themselves are a very blunt measure when applied as a safety tool. On a dry empty motorway in an evening, 100 mph+ would be perfectly safe. The same stretch of road at rush hour, with freezing fog, the maximum safe speed might be 30 mph... apart from all the idiots still doing 70. I once was caught out by a sudden deluge while in the outside lane of the M25. It was so inclement, I couldn't actually guarantee that it was safe to change lanes. Stopping in the distance I could see to be clear? I kept the lights of the car ahead just within view, which was a reasonable stopping distance, but had they ploughed into a stationary lorry, I might have been in trouble. I just deemed it safer than trying to manoeuvre across 3 lanes of traffic without being able to see particularly well. Or slowing down in the outside lane of a motorway.


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## Profpointy (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> There was some other thread a while back about cyclists exceeding the speed limit. There is a 20mph maximum zone near to me with traffic calming. It is 20mph because there is a primary school in the zone. The zone is on a hill and cyclists can easily exceed the speed limit. If you look at the Strava data (admittedly this is a subset of all cyclists), most exceed the speed limit. Practically all of these will have a gps device which displays speed
> 
> My position was that (a) doing more than 20mph past a primary school on a bike isn't sensible (b) all road users should be subject to broadly the same basic regulations re speed, intoxication etc



Surely the severity / strictness of regulations should reflect the risk of harm to others shouldn't it? I'd expect the rules for owning hamsters to be minimal, but I'd not object to some kind of rules for owning Siberian tigers. Likewise the alcohol limits for airline pilots are extremely strict, zero essentially, for car driving it's set at so many mg per whatever, for cycling you have to be actually drunk, but as a pedestrian being drunk is OK, providing you are not disorderly as well. This seems pretty reasonable to me,

And whilst 20mph is a fair enough limit around schools or whatver, unless it's downhill it takes someone pretty fit to exceed that for any distance cycling. I'm regularly overtaken doing 30mph on my 1000cc motorbike, so fussing about cyclists exceeding 20mph is clearly a distraction. More worryingly whipping up cyclist hatred gets people killed as a minority of motorists already drive at cyclists. Whilst I don't really want to do a Godwin, it has to be said picking on an "out" group, be that cyclists, or transexuals, moslems or whatever is straight out of the Fascist play book.


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## Paulus (17 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> They stopped using them because of the injuries they were causing in collisions.



About 1978 if my old memory serves me right.


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## rogerzilla (17 Aug 2022)

It's just a bit of red meat for the gammonati.


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## cougie uk (17 Aug 2022)

Absolute gibberish. 

Unless he's fitting all bikes with speedometers how would they know they are exceeding the limit. 

This Government will do anything to avoid us talking about the real issues.


----------



## kingrollo (17 Aug 2022)

dan_bo said:


> It's news cycle control nothing more. Inflation at 20% noooo let's talk about cyclists instead.
> 
> Rattle the keys.



Or he is trying get in the good books of Liz Truss. !


----------



## TheDoctor (17 Aug 2022)

He'll be out of the cabinet come what may, I suspect.


----------



## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

hoopdriver said:


> There is also a legally mandated leeway on speeding offences of a couple of miles per hour in recognition if the fact that speedometers may vary. Which means you’d be looking at 22 or 23mph before you could get fined - which is really hauling it.


There is no *legally mandated *leeway, and no need for it based on speedometer variance, as speedometers are not allowed to read low at all - Construction & use regulations require that they read between true speed and (true speed + 10% + 2.4mph) - the 2.4mph is a conversion of the 4Kph that the EU required. Most speedos are set at the factory to read around 4-5% high, so that if it does vary over the life of the vehicle, it still shouldn't ever read low.

There is *guidance* that you will not *usually* be prosecuted if within 10%+2 of the speed limit, and speed cameras are usually set to at least that level (even average speed cameras). But legally, you can be done for any measurable amount over the limit.


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## Vantage (17 Aug 2022)

It has happened in the past. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.st...fter-he-is-clocked-at-38mph-a3102191.html?amp


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## dave r (17 Aug 2022)

Paulus said:


> About 1978 if my old memory serves me right.



Around there somewhere, I brought my MZ about 1976 and I'm sure it came without a front number plate.


----------



## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> There was some other thread a while back about cyclists exceeding the speed limit. There is a 20mph maximum zone near to me with traffic calming. It is 20mph because there is a primary school in the zone. The zone is on a hill and cyclists can easily exceed the speed limit. If you look at the Strava data (admittedly this is a subset of all cyclists), most exceed the speed limit. Practically all of these will have a gps device which displays speed
> 
> My position was that (a) doing more than 20mph past a primary school on a bike isn't sensible (b) all road users should be subject to broadly the same basic regulations re speed, intoxication etc



But all road users aren't the same in terms of risk.

A car is about 6 feet wide, a bike including handlebars is 3. So that much narrower an area which can hit a pedestrian. The bike (including rider) also weighs less than 1/10th of a car, so the momentum if it does hit somebody is so much less. And it is more maneuverable and so has a better chance of dodging a pedestrian who has stepped out without looking at all.

I still wouldn't be doing 20+ past a school at the start or end of the school day though.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> So will I need 9 different number plates and insurance for each bike or would it be the person the number plate and insurance applied to if it ever actually comes to pass. Shame I'm regularly still seeing motorists driving around with mobiles clutched to their heads and feck all done about it!


Ohhhh 9 individual everything, no fleet policies or "trade plates" to stick on anything.


----------



## Captain Sensible (17 Aug 2022)

Gammon / click bait for the Daily Heil readers


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The bike (including rider) also weighs less than 1/10th of a car



It’s a lot less than that, how many cars weigh less than a tonne?


----------



## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

Vantage said:


> It has happened in the past.
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-cyclist-fined-for-speeding-in-richmond-park-after-he-is-clocked-at-38mph-a3102191.html?amp



Yes, Richmond Park was one of the few places in the country where speed limits do apply to cyclists. The limits in Richmond Park are not limits imposed by the Road Traffic Regulation Act, as it is not supposedly "public highways".

But having said that, some time after the above case, it appears that the Park authorities have stated now that speed limits do not apply to cyclists even there.
https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/08102021-speed-limits-dont-apply-to-cyclists-in-richmond-park


----------



## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It’s a lot less than that, how many cars weigh less than a tonne?



A few. And I did say "less than 1/10".


----------



## ren531 (17 Aug 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It's just a bit of red meat for the gammonati.



Totally just this.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> A few. And I did say "less than 1/10".



It’s nearer a 1/20th to give it a truer comparison


----------



## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It’s nearer a 1/20th to give it a truer comparison



Yup. That's less than a 10th. I reckon you'll ace your fractions test 👍 ;-)


----------



## nickyboy (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> But all road users aren't the same in terms of risk.
> 
> A car is about 6 feet wide, a bike including handlebars is 3. So that much narrower an area which can hit a pedestrian. The bike (including rider) also weighs less than 1/10th of a car, so the momentum if it does hit somebody is so much less. And it is more maneuverable and so has a better chance of dodging a pedestrian who has stepped out without looking at all.
> 
> I still wouldn't be doing 20+ past a school at the start or end of the school day though.



Correct. But HGV, coach, SUV, small car, motorbike, moped all are subject to the same 20mph limit though, regardless of the kinetic energy, manoeuvrability argument. The only road users capable of doing more than 20mph that aren't subject to this are bicycles. I'm not convinced that cyclists should be a special case

There are, undoubtedly, more pressing matters regarding road safety than this. However, the tortuous arguments as regards why cyclists should never be subject to speed limits, under any circumstances, are interesting


----------



## Ian H (17 Aug 2022)

Opposition to the idea is fairly widespread:-
_Edmund King, the AA president, said: “It is in the interests of all road users, and indeed our environment, that as a society we encourage more use of active travel, such as walking and cycling, and also the transition to zero emission vehicles.

“Introducing more barriers to slow the take-up of safe cycling would be a retrograde step. What we really need is better infrastructure for cycling so that some of the present-day issues on the roads are removed.”_


----------



## Solocle (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Correct. But HGV, coach, SUV, small car, motorbike, moped all are subject to the same 20mph limit though, regardless of the kinetic energy, manoeuvrability argument. The only road users capable of doing more than 20mph that aren't subject to this are bicycles. I'm not convinced that cyclists should be a special case
> 
> There are, undoubtedly, more pressing matters regarding road safety than this. However, the tortuous arguments as regards why cyclists should never be subject to speed limits, under any circumstances, are interesting



The only road users...





Since the chap in front can run 27 mph, I suspect quite a reasonable number of people can manage 21.


----------



## Rooster1 (17 Aug 2022)

Did somebody say e-scooters?


----------



## Rooster1 (17 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> So @al78 - are you with the cats or the pigeons?



The parrot


----------



## presta (17 Aug 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It's just a bit of red meat for the gammonati.


Cameron thought he could get some peace and quiet by humouring UKIP with a referendum. That didn't end well.


----------



## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

Ian H said:


> Opposition to the idea is fairly widespread:-
> _Edmund King, the AA president, said: “It is in the interests of all road users, and indeed our environment, that as a society we encourage more use of active travel, such as walking and cycling, and also the transition to zero emission vehicles.
> 
> “Introducing more barriers to slow the take-up of safe cycling would be a retrograde step. What we really need is better infrastructure for cycling so that some of the present-day issues on the roads are removed.”_



So cyclists are against it, the AA are too. Every government commitee to date has been against it ...

... does this mark out Shapps as a maverick free-thinker??


----------



## youngoldbloke (17 Aug 2022)

I can think of another word ending in 'nker'


----------



## Ian H (17 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> So cyclists are against it, the AA are too. Every government commitee to date has been against it ...
> 
> ... does this mark out Shapps as a maverick free-thinker??


This is Shapps who, under various pseudonyms, ran get-rich-quick schemes for the gullible. https://news.sky.com/story/shapps-sold-get-rich-quick-guide-while-mp-10367656


----------



## DCLane (17 Aug 2022)

A thought; he's trying to re-frame himself as a law-enforcing idealist, knowing he'll lose his current job when the new PM is appointed.

Is he simply aiming for a different job. Lord Chancellor?


----------



## Cycleops (17 Aug 2022)

At least Jeremy Vine has got the right idea:


----------



## Oldhippy (17 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> So cyclists are against it, the AA are too. Every government commitee to date has been against it ...
> 
> ... does this mark out Shapps as a maverick free-thinker??



No it makes him a headline grabbing d*ck for the looney and populist factions that think capitalism is ever upward and we can pollute as we please regardless of the dire situation we have helped put the planet in.


----------



## Jameshow (17 Aug 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> No it makes him a headline grabbing d*ck for the looney and populist factions that think capitalism is ever upward and we can pollute as we please regardless of the dire situation we have helped put the planet in.



Cannot stand the man. 

He gave us smart motorways too, 

Wasted billions on hs2 

Self serving Plon ker


----------



## BoldonLad (17 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> It’s an interview from Shapps to the DM telling them what they wanted to hear from a man who’ll be out of a job as the transport secretary in a couple of weeks.



exactly!


----------



## BoldonLad (17 Aug 2022)

PeteXXX said:


> I wonder, if it ever happens..., whether you will be able to get personalised plates?
> B 0 NK
> CR 4 NK



of course you will.... for a fee of course


----------



## Arrowfoot (17 Aug 2022)

1. Cycle registration implementation and maintenance cost prohibitive. Deters society's desire to move away form motorised vehicle for short distances and positive health implications. Never will happen. 
2. Speeding maybe but a sledgehammer and unnecessary approach 
3. Enhance laws for hoons who are caught dangerous riding on pavements, pedestrian crossings etc and there are many.


----------



## BoldonLad (17 Aug 2022)

youngoldbloke said:


> *Maybe a bar code tattooed on our foreheads *after we pass the highway code test and show our insurance papers?



I have long thought this an excellent idea. Maybe it could replace all of those plastic cards which clutter up my wallet?


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 Aug 2022)

I am just amazed he didn't mention Road Tax

Maybe he is saving that for next week


----------



## T4tomo (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Correct. But HGV, coach, SUV, small car, motorbike, moped all are subject to the same 20mph limit though, regardless of the kinetic energy, manoeuvrability argument. The only road users capable of doing more than 20mph that aren't subject to this are bicycles. I'm not convinced that cyclists should be a special case
> 
> There are, undoubtedly, more pressing matters regarding road safety than this. However, the tortuous arguments as regards why cyclists should never be subject to speed limits, under any circumstances, are interesting



I know what you are saying with your first point, it was in the Richmond park article that "cyclist travelling at 25mph has the same destructive force as an SUV moving at 4.3mph" but a mass related speed limit would be unworkable/ impractical, and its not just pedstrians speed limits are there to protect 

Given motor vehicle have to have a speedo and non motorised don't, its also a practical issue of trying to enforce any regulation on non-motorised vehicle speed limited.

Certainly more pressing matters to attend to and Gov shd also be wary of the aussie example of more regulation (compulsory helmets) drove down cycle use and as a result increased long term death rates due to lower overall population health benefits accruing thru cycling.


----------



## BoldonLad (17 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I am just amazed he didn't mention Road Tax
> 
> Maybe he is saving that for next week



Emmissions Tax, please, just don't break wind at the MOT Station and you will be zero rated.


----------



## PK99 (17 Aug 2022)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> He also said that cyclists can easily exceed the new 10 mph speed limits
> OK mate let's put you and Boris on a nice flat road and see you do , even on a legal ebike
> Generally ride my bike at around 15 to 16 mph and only very good road bike riders pass me
> 
> ...



ALL roads (bar Red Routes under TFL control) in Wimbledon have 20mph limits

Many of the residential roads are on hills.

30mph is easily achieved on a non e-bike on many of those roads


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## BoldonLad (17 Aug 2022)

kingrollo said:


> At least he hasn't mentioned compulsory helmets.



Give him time, he may need more clickbait


----------



## PK99 (17 Aug 2022)

Cyclists never have number plates....


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## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Cannot stand the man.
> 
> He gave us smart motorways too,
> 
> ...



Both smart motorways and HS2 were around long before he became a Minister for transport.


----------



## tyred (17 Aug 2022)

Surely he should recommend compulsory hi-vis too.


----------



## matticus (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> Correct. But HGV, coach, SUV, small car, motorbike, moped all are subject to the same 20mph limit though, regardless of the kinetic energy, manoeuvrability argument. The only road users capable of doing more than 20mph that aren't subject to this are bicycles. I'm not convinced that cyclists should be a special case



If you were walking 6yr olds to school, would you really be _just _as happy about HGVs doing 20mph as with moped or cycles??
[I have a good anecdote about a medium van hitting me very much below 20mph - the KE transferred to me was quite eye-opening! I would far rather have been hit by the world's most clueless head-down roadie.]

Be careful what examples you use when looking for _Good Laws._


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## nickyboy (17 Aug 2022)

matticus said:


> If you were walking 6yr olds to school, would you really be _just _as happy about HGVs doing 20mph as with moped or cycles??
> [I have a good anecdote about a medium van hitting me very much below 20mph - the KE transferred to me was quite eye-opening! I would far rather have been hit by the world's most clueless head-down roadie.]
> 
> Be careful what examples you use when looking for _Good Laws._



I'm not happy about any road user doing more than the speed limit. I'm less unhappy about ones with a mass of 100kg than those with a mass of 10,000kg. But that doesn't mean those with the lightest mass should be subject to zero regulation. Limits based on kinetic energy are unenforceable so a blanket limit is the only one that works (except on Motorways of course). The interesting issue is why cyclists think the blanket limit should apply to every road user other that themselves


----------



## cheys03 (17 Aug 2022)

fossyant said:


> Might just ask my son to knock a 'fake' rag plate up for me with his vinyl printer/cutter thingy ! 👅


Brilliant! Have a swappable plate and randomly insert one of ten possibilities each ride

It’s not as if any APNR cameras or police will be able to easily detect the bike make, model and colour to detect fake plates


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## postman (17 Aug 2022)

Got mine today.DO 1


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Aug 2022)

Solocle said:


> The law is that it is unlawful to drive a *motor vehicle *above the speed limit. Nothing to do with speedometer or lack thereof.
> 
> It remains incumbent on all road users to do a safe speed for the conditions. School, so what? It's the school holidays.
> 
> Speed limits themselves are a very blunt measure when applied as a safety tool. On a dry empty motorway in an evening, 100 mph+ would be perfectly safe. The same stretch of road at rush hour, with freezing fog, the maximum safe speed might be 30 mph... apart from all the idiots still doing 70. I once was caught out by a sudden deluge while in the outside lane of the M25. It was so inclement, I couldn't actually guarantee that it was safe to change lanes. Stopping in the distance I could see to be clear? I kept the lights of the car ahead just within view, which was a reasonable stopping distance, but had they ploughed into a stationary lorry, I might have been in trouble. I just deemed it safer than trying to manoeuvre across 3 lanes of traffic without being able to see particularly well. Or slowing down in the outside lane of a motorway.



100mph - that'll get some folk frothing!

FWIW - I agree with you that under certain conditions that speed can be relatively safe.


----------



## SpokeyDokey (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> The interesting issue is why cyclists think the blanket limit should apply to every road user other that themselves



It is interesting for sure - there are some sanctimonious cyclists who damn everyone but themselves and seemingly believe they are a special case when it comes to the laws (in-force or proposed) of the road.

Possibly a factor in fueling some motorist's animosity to cyclists.


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## Mike_P (17 Aug 2022)

Presumably would revoke section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948) which allows cyclists going too fast for the conditions, to be charged with the criminal offence of ‘wanton or furious cycling’; maybe being merely a member of parliament he is not aware of that.


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## postman (17 Aug 2022)

Tory party,the country is in a mess fuel,cost of living,nhs,dentists.I have got to say i did vote for Boris,the thought of Abbott and Costello,sorry Corbyn running the country chilled me to the bone.But my word they couldnt have done a worse job,Boris where is the multi millions for the nhs after Brexit,and hows your pals doing the ones that got the safety stuff through covid,millions of pounds lined peoples pockets,and all we see is jump on cyclists well f.o. Tories.


----------



## Bromptonaut (17 Aug 2022)

Jameshow said:


> Cannot stand the man.
> 
> He gave us smart motorways too,
> 
> ...



I'm no defender of Shapps but Smart Motorways and HS2 predate not just him but the Tories in government.


----------



## Profpointy (17 Aug 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Presumably would revoke section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948) which allows cyclists going too fast for the conditions, to be charged with the criminal offence of ‘wanton or furious cycling’; maybe being merely a member of parliament he is not aware of that.



The act you refer to seems to cover pretty much everything needed (based on your précis at least)


----------



## Gwylan (17 Aug 2022)

Bromptonaut said:


> I'm no defender of Shapps but Smart Motorways and HS2 predate not just him but the Tories in government.



He didn't make any improvement to the schemes did he?

What was the staff meeting like when the idea was floated? Imagine the exchanged glances across the room. The eyes cast heavenwards. Or the scream as the e mail was read.
The stiffled laughs or the OFFS as the initiative introduced.


----------



## Gwylan (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> There is no requirement to have such a computer on your bike.
> 
> The current law specifies "motor vehicles" in the speeding section, which is why it doesn't apply to bikes. Shapps appears to be proposing to change that so it includes bicycles.
> 
> ...



Given her record on big achievements it might even get traction


----------



## mustang1 (17 Aug 2022)

dan_bo said:


> Yawn. Bait. Noise. Bollox.



Yeah. Just sounds like another peanut politician wanting a few quick soundbites of fame. Typically thoughtless one-liner kinda guy.


----------



## PK99 (17 Aug 2022)

postman said:


> Tory party,the country is in a mess fuel,cost of living,nhs,dentists.I have got to say i did vote for Boris,the thought of Abbott and Costello,sorry Corbyn running the country chilled me to the bone.But my word they couldnt have done a worse job,Boris *where is the multi millions for the nhs after Brexit*,and hows your pals doing the ones that got the safety stuff through covid,millions of pounds lined peoples pockets,and all we see is jump on cyclists well f.o. Tories.



You are forgetting the seismic economic shocks of Covid & Urkraine


----------



## markemark (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> The interesting issue is why cyclists think the blanket limit should apply to every road user other that themselves


I don’t. Just the big heavy motorised ones. I’m happy to be in the group with cyclists and roller bladers and hula hoopers and pogo stickers and moon walkers ……


----------



## oldwheels (17 Aug 2022)

Mo1959 said:


> So will I need 9 different number plates and insurance for each bike or would it be the person the number plate and insurance applied to if it ever actually comes to pass. Shame I'm regularly still seeing motorists driving around with mobiles clutched to their heads and feck all done about it!



You would need 9 different plates and insurance.Not enough money in it otherwise.


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (17 Aug 2022)

Would British Cycling insurance cover that element of things if, of course. the ridiculous plans ever came to fruition?


----------



## presta (17 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> This is from 2016.
> 
> https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2016-06-07/39576


There was a motorist on twitter arguing that if cyclists pay, it won't be expensive for anyone else. I was tempted to ask him if he would prefer them all adding to the congestion in cars, but I dare say he probably would.


fossyant said:


> Might just ask my son to knock a 'fake' rag plate up for me with his vinyl printer/cutter thingy ! 👅


If I was still cycling I might be tempted to ride with this one.







Jameshow said:


> He gave us smart motorways too,


Smart motorways are actually safer, contrary to popular opinion. (Leeds Uni)


----------



## DaveReading (17 Aug 2022)

"Being discussed at ministerial level" is about as meaningless as it gets, given that nobody knows who will be minister of anything in a couple of weeks' time.


----------



## Roadrat77 (17 Aug 2022)

Typical of the hostility towards cyclists and cycling in general in Britain. One minute they want people to abandon their cars and go green and the next they're effectively criminalising and demonising the most viable option to it.


----------



## DRM (17 Aug 2022)

The weekly hiding of bad news, from a convulsed government in it’s death throes, last week it was killer cyclists, this week it’s speeding cyclists, number plates and insurance, what’s coming next week I wonder


----------



## DRM (17 Aug 2022)

kingrollo said:


> At least he hasn't mentioned compulsory helmets.


That’s to cover next weeks Tory mess


----------



## PaulB (17 Aug 2022)

alicat said:


> Thread closure in 3....2....1.....



Weeks?


----------



## DRM (17 Aug 2022)

tyred said:


> Surely he should recommend compulsory hi-vis too.


That’s for the week after compulsory helmets to hide that weeks Tory disaster


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Aug 2022)

Jody said:


> There is a thread already discussing this.
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/r...-being-discussed-at-ministerial-level.287133/


Mod Note:
threads merged.


----------



## kingrollo (17 Aug 2022)

On second thoughts my confidence that this would never get implemented was based on:-

"They wouldn't be that stupid"....


----------



## kingrollo (17 Aug 2022)

Classic divide and rule.

This might not get implemented - but it makes for a divided and horrible country.

I despair at times.


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Cyclists never have number plates....
> 
> View attachment 657705


But it's white only to the front, yellow to the rear.


----------



## craigwend (17 Aug 2022)

https://road.cc/content/news/grant-shapps-backtracks-number-plates-cyclists-plan-295279


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## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

nickyboy said:


> I'm not happy about any road user doing more than the speed limit. I'm less unhappy about ones with a mass of 100kg than those with a mass of 10,000kg. But that doesn't mean those with the lightest mass should be subject to zero regulation. Limits based on kinetic energy are unenforceable so a blanket limit is the only one that works (except on Motorways of course). The interesting issue is why cyclists think the blanket limit should apply to every road user other that themselves



It isn't only motorways where the limit varies by vehicle type. Dual carriageways have similar limits to motorways. Single carriageways have more variation.

Non urban single carriageway defaults are 60 for cars and vans, 50 if towing or various categories of PSV and LGV, 40 (Scotland only now) for HGVs.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

There is no technical reason why the default urban limit has to be the same for all vehicles.

And it isn't necessarily the case that cyclists think it *should* apply to ever other road user than themselves, but it is fact that currently they do.

Whether it is worth changing the law for the very few cases where cyclists are traveling above the motor vehicle limit is debatable.

Whether it is worth also forcing cyclists to have visible ID such as registration plates is just a non starter IMO, but without it, cameras would not be able to enforce any speed limits that became applicable.


----------



## johnnyb47 (17 Aug 2022)

For argument sake what would happen if number plates were to be made legal.
In the real world it would be unworkable. Alot of bikes are often shared amongst kids and adults,and if an offence was committed and the number plate was somehow recorded how could it be proven who was riding the bike. 
They will be lobbying for pedestrians next to sew a number plate into there clothes so that cctv cameras can identify them just in case they commit a crime in the street.
Its almost bordering on Big Brother.
If it were to come into force it would be the start of more things to come like the enforcement of mandatory insurance and a tax to entitle you to cycle on the roads. The way things are going at the moment with falling car sales and decreasing VED revenues the humble cyclist could become the next cash cow .


----------



## Jenkins (17 Aug 2022)

craigwend said:


> https://road.cc/content/news/grant-shapps-backtracks-number-plates-cyclists-plan-295279



Oh surprise - yet another sudden U-turn when a minister realises how stupid they've been. It's almost as if they're coming up with these sort of ideas in order to deflect public attention from much more serious problems that they are failing to deal with.

Shaps is a complete daffodil who, hopefuly along with a few others, will be out of a front line decision making job in a few weeks and potentially out of a job completely in a couple of years.


----------



## Gwylan (17 Aug 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Oh surprise - yet another sudden U-turn when a minister realises how stupid they've been. It's almost as if they're coming up with these sort of ideas in order to deflect public attention from much more serious problems that they are failing to deal with.
> 
> Shaps is a complete daffodil who, hopefuly along with a few others, will be out of a front line decision making job in a few weeks and potentially out of a job completely in a couple of years.



Worse he could slither into some industry quango and lobby for some vested interest or another


----------



## Regular.Cyclist (17 Aug 2022)

If I have read the original Daily Fail article correctly it was “officials” who “acknowledge this means cyclists will need number plates or another form of identifiable markings for enforcement purposes.”

GS‘s only quoted comment relates to him “absolutely propose extending speed limit restrictions to cyclists.”

The rest is from unnamed “officials“ and speculation by the newspaper.


----------



## BoldonLad (17 Aug 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> For argument sake what would happen if number plates were to be made legal.
> In the real world it would be unworkable. Alot of bikes are often shared amongst kids and adults,and if an offence was committed and the number plate was somehow recorded* how could it be proven who was riding the bike.
> They will be lobbying for pedestrians next to sew a number plate* into there clothes so that cctv cameras can identify them just in case they commit a crime in the street.
> Its almost bordering on Big Brother.
> If it were to come into force it would be the start of more things to come like the enforcement of mandatory insurance and a tax to entitle you to cycle on the roads. The way things are going at the moment with falling car sales and decreasing VED revenues the humble cyclist could become the next cash cow .



Same way a a motor vehicle, presumably, each bicycle would have to have a registered keeper. Registered keeper would then get a request to declare who was riding bicycle, at time of offence. It would be an offence not to declare. It would be an offence to 'take someone's points' by saying you were riding.

Really workable, don't you think?

A bar code, tattooed on the forehead would be a more practical solution that a number plate on clothes, don't you think?

I jest of course, but, are they?


----------



## Alex321 (17 Aug 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> For argument sake what would happen if number plates were to be made legal.
> In the real world it would be unworkable. Alot of bikes are often shared amongst kids and adults,and if an offence was committed and the number plate was somehow recorded how could it be proven who was riding the bike.


That really isn't an issue. It would be exactly the same as the current Section 172 requirement to name the driver.

It would be pretty well unworkable though, because plates would have to be retrofitted to millions of bikes, most of which have no reasonable way of attaching them.

It would also seriously discourage people from cycling, when supposedly cycling is to be encouraged.



johnnyb47 said:


> They will be lobbying for pedestrians next to sew a number plate into there clothes so that cctv cameras can identify them just in case they commit a crime in the street.
> Its almost bordering on Big Brother.
> If it were to come into force it would be the start of more things to come like the enforcement of mandatory insurance and a tax to entitle you to cycle on the roads. The way things are going at the moment with falling car sales and decreasing VED revenues the humble cyclist could become the next cash cow .



I don't see it as being any more "big brother" than requiring car registration plates. I just don't see it as being practically workable.

I also don't see cyclists becoming a "cash cow" for tax. While we would all like to see many more people cycling, at the moment we are such a small minority that the admin would probably cost more than any revenue received, and it would also have the effect of pretty well stopping any casual cycling. Nobody is going to pay a tax for something they only use casually, a few times a year.


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## Gwylan (17 Aug 2022)

There was a time that bicycles in Belgium had to be registered with the authorities and have a number plate attached. It seems the process lapsed before my arrival.
But it was fun to spot these ancient plated models and their usually ancient owners.


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## Gwylan (17 Aug 2022)

https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/...pened-to-belgiums-bicycle-registration-scheme

Do catch up Mr Shapps, even the Belgians couldn't make it work. They really know about raising, collecting and evading tax


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## Mike_P (17 Aug 2022)

Regular.Cyclist said:


> The rest is from unnamed “officials“ and speculation by the newspaper.


Way back when Orange and T Mobile were setting up their networks I had involvement in some of their new masts; one morning the phone started going mad with calls referencing phone masts having been made illegal which transpired to be a DM article. Taking the bull by the horns I phoned the DM and was told quite openly we made it up. That rag is not worth wasting time on.


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## kingrollo (17 Aug 2022)

Jenkins said:


> Oh surprise - yet another sudden U-turn when a minister realises how stupid they've been. It's almost as if they're coming up with these sort of ideas in order to deflect public attention from much more serious problems that they are failing to deal with.
> 
> Shaps is a complete daffodil who, hopefuly along with a few others, will be out of a front line decision making job in a few weeks and potentially out of a job completely in a couple of years.



Job done - he's got motorists snarling at cyclists.

Welcome to the culture wars !

I was also looking forward to seeing white van man uploading video footage to the internet
"This is fookin bollox aye it"


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## newfhouse (17 Aug 2022)

View: https://twitter.com/willydunn/status/1559858690756419584?s=21&t=UGe0KE6rVTzTP7PUyf_XxQ


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## tribanjules (17 Aug 2022)

Insurance for cycles ? Great- I hit a pothole and pass it to them to sue council for their loss when I claim . How does my 9 yo get insured ?


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## postman (17 Aug 2022)

Right my number plate is going on the right rear stay,so if any motorist gets too close a nice deep gouge down his cars bodywork.


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## classic33 (17 Aug 2022)

tribanjules said:


> Insurance for cycles ? Great- I hit a pothole and pass it to them to sue council for their loss when I claim . *How does my 9 yo get insured ? *


Maybe with
https://www.bicyinsurance.com/children-bicy-insurance/

The one industry who must be looking forward to the possibility of all cyclists requiring cover.


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## DRM (17 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It isn't only motorways where the limit varies by vehicle type. Dual carriageways have similar limits to motorways. Single carriageways have more variation.
> 
> Non urban single carriageway defaults are 60 for cars and vans, 50 if towing or various categories of PSV and LGV, 40 (Scotland only now) for HGVs.
> 
> ...


Single carriageway national speed limit in a van is 50 mph, dual carriageway is 60 mph, motorway is 70 mph, obviously unless a lower limit is in force, if it’s a car derived van it’s the same as a car speed limit wise, evidence noted on all types road prove that as Michael Caine was alleged to have said was “not a lot of people know that” as a large vans go flying past 70mph +


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## PK99 (17 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> But it's white only to the front, yellow to the rear.



But you clearly do recognize and accept the point that cyclists can, and sometimes do, sport numberplates on the front of their bikes for identification purposes.


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## PK99 (17 Aug 2022)

johnnyb47 said:


> For argument sake what would happen if number plates were to be made legal.
> In the real world it would be unworkable. Alot of bikes are often shared amongst kids and adults,and if an offence was committed and the number plate was somehow recorded how could it be proven who was riding the bike.



The same applies to car drivers.


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## classic33 (18 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> But you clearly do recognize and accept the point that cyclists can, and sometimes do, sport numberplates on the front of their bikes for identification purposes.


Haven't those numbers been preassigned to the rider, not their bike, for the one event?

Same rider and bike can be in the same event the following year, with a different number assigned to the rider.


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## Alex321 (18 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> But you clearly do recognize and accept the point that cyclists can, and sometimes do, sport numberplates on the front of their bikes for identification purposes.



Only very lightweight, temporary ones. Those wouldn't stand up to more than one or two rides, and fitting ones in that position which would will usually be restricting the movement of the bars.


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## PK99 (18 Aug 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Only very lightweight, temporary ones. Those wouldn't stand up to more than one or two rides, and fitting ones in that position which would will usually be restricting the movement of the bars.



Design details. The principle is established!


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## classic33 (18 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Design details. The principle is established!


And front mounted number plates were removed from motorbikes/mopeds in the late seventies, based on earlier posts, due to the injuries they caused.

If we were forced to have front mounted plates, then I'd expect motorbikes and mopeds to have the same.


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## PK99 (18 Aug 2022)

classic33 said:


> And front mounted number plates were removed from motorbikes/mopeds in the late seventies, based on earlier posts, due to the injuries they caused.
> 
> If we were forced to have front mounted plates, then I'd expect motorbikes and mopeds to have the same.



Design details, the principle is established.


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## PaulB (18 Aug 2022)

Although there's little chance of this despicable restriction being imposed on us, it's certainly gained some traction in the national news. The Guardian has this https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/17/cyclists-grant-shapps-culture-wars today. The difference between the reactions of the readers of the Guardian and the Heil are polar opposites in the comments section below each article. It's not so much the fact it's being even discussed but the increased danger it places cyclists in when we've clearly got lots of people who believe this should be implemented and when it's not, the animosity towards cyclists will increase.


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## markemark (18 Aug 2022)

PaulB said:


> It's not so much the fact it's being even discussed but the increased danger it places cyclists in when we've clearly got lots of people who believe this should be implemented and when it's not, the animosity towards cyclists will increase.


Sadly this is the inevitable flip side of greater numbers and infrastructure. The more cyclists there are the more annoyed the vocal drivers will be as their priority is eroded. It was never going to be welcomed. As cycling increases more and more expect the minority who are fuming at this to become louder and louder as their space becomes less and less. Think of then as loud mouth racists, to be ignored.


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## Mike_P (18 Aug 2022)

Whilst cycle race riders may have identification numbers the number of a riders in a race is negligible compared to the number of bicycles in the UK so the simple fact of finding a safe space for such a number of the necessary size, not the old front motor bike style which was outlawed because of impact on accidents, remains if such a crazy idea did show any likelihood of becoming reality.


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## PaulB (18 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> Sadly this is the inevitable flip side of greater numbers and infrastructure. The more cyclists there are the more annoyed the vocal drivers will be as their priority is eroded. It was never going to be welcomed. As cycling increases more and more expect the minority who are fuming at this to become louder and louder as their space becomes less and less. Think of then as loud mouth racists, to be ignored.



I always wonder what they hate the most about cyclists. Is it the pollution? The noise? No, I think it's the freedom they want to tax. No enjoyment without payment.


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## Lozz360 (18 Aug 2022)

dave r said:


> Around there somewhere, I brought my MZ about 1976 and I'm sure it came without a front number plate.



I bought my first motorbike in 1976. A brand new Suzuki GT185. No front number plate.


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## markemark (18 Aug 2022)

PaulB said:


> I always wonder what they hate the most about cyclists. Is it the pollution? The noise? No, I think it's the freedom they want to tax. No enjoyment without payment.


Some see it as a zero sum game….whatever a cyclist gains, a motorists loses.


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## cookiemonster (18 Aug 2022)

Rooster1 said:


> Unreal. Speed breaking, red light jumping ?? !!!!
> View attachment 657645




View: https://media.giphy.com/media/NoHe3HpB1Mg8w/giphy.gif


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## oldwheels (18 Aug 2022)

How would I fit a front number plate to a tadpole trike? The rear could be the same as a bike but the front is different.
How about wheelchairs and mobility scooters as well?
I do already have insurance but compulsion on helmets and number plates is a step too far.


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## All uphill (18 Aug 2022)

markemark said:


> Sadly this is the inevitable flip side of greater numbers and infrastructure. The more cyclists there are the more annoyed the vocal drivers will be as their priority is eroded. It was never going to be welcomed. As cycling increases more and more expect the minority who are fuming at this to become louder and louder as their space becomes less and less. Think of then as loud mouth racists, to be ignored.



Interesting point you make @markemark 

I saw Groningen in the Netherlands make the transition from a city congested with cars and lorries to one where the cyclist is clearly dominant.

At first there was a period of great anger as infrastructure changes made car usage less convenient, but as the number of cyclists and walkers increased there gradually became an acceptance that motor vehicles are limited in various ways. The anger passed as a new reality took hold.

Let's hope we can get there in more of the UK.


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## alicat (18 Aug 2022)

PaulB said:


> Weeks?


 I think so. It's funny how news and current affairs is allowed when it's something that we as cyclists are likely to agree on.


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## PK99 (18 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> Interesting point you make @markemark
> 
> I saw Groningen in the Netherlands make the transition from a city congested with cars and lorries to one where the cyclist is clearly dominant.
> 
> ...



Good luck with that. Groningen neatly fits into a 4mile diameter circle and is dead flat


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## PaulB (18 Aug 2022)

alicat said:


> I think so. It's funny how news and current affairs is allowed when it's something that we as cyclists are likely to agree on.



It's never been in news and current affairs though. It started in General Chat and later moved to Advocacy and Cycling Safety.


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## matticus (18 Aug 2022)

All uphill said:


> Interesting point you make @markemark
> 
> I saw Groningen in the Netherlands make the transition from a city congested with cars and lorries to one where the cyclist is clearly dominant.
> 
> ...



Yes! I think in the long run these things always work out well 

When UK motorists holiday in Bruge, or Amsterdam (or Venice!!), do they bemoan the peaceful safe streets??
No: they universally love it. The memory wears off too quickly, of course ...


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## Phaeton (18 Aug 2022)

alicat said:


> I think so. It's funny how news and current affairs is allowed when it's something that we as cyclists are likely to agree on.





PaulB said:


> It's never been in news and current affairs though. It started in General Chat and later moved to Advocacy and Cycling Safety.


The point being that this thread *IS* a news & current affair thread, as it is news & it's politically motivated , but has been allowed to not be moved to the dark place or had posts deleted, yet other threads are censored & on point posts deleted or posters are told the thread will be moved. Not saying that it should be moved but just like your best Victoria sponge consistency is everything.


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## matticus (18 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> consistency is everything.



You want a bland beige world? Every website the same? Or just every post the same?
No room for creativity? Happy accident? What a dull life you seem to want!


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## classic33 (18 Aug 2022)

PK99 said:


> Design details, the principle is established.
> 
> 
> View attachment 657760
> ...


Principle establised, drivers should have numbers on them.

Visible even on their hi-vis. It'd be cheap enough, no safety risk and could be tied into their driving licence if they use the same number.


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## matticus (18 Aug 2022)

Here's a chink of light. I don't believe that even 5 years ago, this post would have got over 5,000 Likes:


View: https://twitter.com/BBCLauraKT/status/1559867787295825920?t=qhV5bC3WrioTzTCf9DLtoA&s=09


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## derrick (18 Aug 2022)

PaulB said:


> I don't know if this is serious enough to warrant posting in the news and current affairs thread but it certainly bothered me enough to bring attention to it.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-registration-numbers-insurance.html#comments
> 
> ...



Restrictions on cyclists now being discussed at Muppet level.​Fixed that for you.


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## TheDoctor (18 Aug 2022)

Phaeton said:


> The point being that this thread *IS* a news & current affair thread, as it is news & it's politically motivated , but has been allowed to not be moved to the dark place or had posts deleted, yet other threads are censored & on point posts deleted or posters are told the thread will be moved. Not saying that it should be moved but just like your best Victoria sponge consistency is everything.



NACA is off thataway ===>
Locked.


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