# Maybe we just weren't elitist enough for the ride?



## Stevec047 (25 Sep 2017)

What an absolute bunch of lycra clad cockwombles. Thats all i have to say about yesterdays sportif my mate and me entered. 

I wont be mentioning any clubs or charitys involved other than the fact that it was a farce from the second we turned up.

First batch of riders were supposed to set of at 9.30 on our ride over to the hq we saw at least 30 odd passing us on the planned route. 

Get there only to be eyed up and down by the organsiser. Book in and then get told we are the last lot to go this was at 9.30.

Off we head and to say we didnt fit in around all the £2k + bikes and branded attire is an understatement. The group of 15 shot off and left us to our own devices.

10 miles in the broom wagen flys past us (when i say broom wagen it was basically one of the organisers on his bike basically time trailing it to catch up and win the race) He stopped and said he would make sure we got to the rest stop and then shot off again.

At this point we decided to ditch the sportif and follow the route stopping off for some grub and then tackling the biggest hill around. Still did 55 miles even if we didnt get our completing waterbottle.

For future reference said club may want to rewrite the ad and remove "a challenging sportif for all" needless to say said club wont be on my list of riding buddies.

Lesson learnt that unless you can avg 18mph or have a high spec high cost set up dont get involved with club arranged sportifs even when they say its for all.

We will be sticking to the sportifs that wiggle arrange from now on and the charity events around the local area.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Sep 2017)

That's clubs, and ( the vast majority ) of Sportives summed up nicely.


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## Yellow Saddle (25 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> What an absolute bunch of lycra clad cockwombles. Thats all i have to say about yesterdays sportif my mate and me entered.
> 
> I wont be mentioning any clubs or charitys involved other than the fact that it was a farce from the second we turned up.
> 
> ...



I can't quite figure out what your issues are, other than perhaps the broom wagon wasn't a broom wagon.

You joined an event where you arrived in attire different from the rest. Would you like them to change to fit in with you? If you go to a black-tie dinner and arrive in a track suit, you will feel odd and people may notice. You may notice that they notice, but that's your issue, not theirs.

They had expensive bikes? So what? Do you want a special event for cheap bikes?

They were faster than you? So what? Events like this are where riders open the throttle and test themselves. Ride faster or not.

A group of 15 shot off and left you behind? Do you really expect strangers to wait for strangers? Why would they? They have trained a bit and want to go fast, you can't expect them to wait for you.

A _lantern rouge _is not a broom wagon. I think the person that swept on his bike was just there to communicate any crises back to the organisers, not to pick you up.

It sounds to me you arrived at an event with different objectives that your expectations. It is your problem, not theirs.


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## I like Skol (25 Sep 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I can't quite figure out what your issues are, other than perhaps the broom wagon wasn't a broom wagon.
> 
> You joined an event where you arrived in attire different from the rest. Would you like them to change to fit in with you? If you go to a black-tie dinner and arrive in a track suit, you will feel odd and people may notice. You may notice that they notice, but that's your issue, not theirs.
> 
> ...


This is sort of what I thought as I read the OP.

Sounds like you may have a huge chip on your shoulder SteveC. I have done a few sportives including one that is privately organised (i.e, not one of the recognised annual 'charity' types) and despite *not* being a team kit wonker and *not* riding the 'normal' types of bike, have never felt uncomfortable or unwelcome.

Even when taking part in such rides where there are colleagues or mates (from cyclechat maybe) riding too, there is no compulsion or expectation to stick together unless this is specifically agreed before the start. It is not unusual to get split up due to varying pace/ability/traffic conditions and each rider will normally do the ride at his/her own pace. There is certainly no expectation that you will remain with your start group when there are staggered start times. This is done purely for safety reasons to prevent several hundred riders trying to disperse onto the local (open?) road network in one unmanageable block. Much more sensible to release the riders in smaller groups so they don't fall over each other or have incidents with the normal road users.

I reckon if you had arrived with a less prejudiced view of the other riders and organisation and simply concentrated on enjoying your ride rather than trying to pick faults in it you would have found that you actually had a whale of a time and would be chomping at the bit to book on the next one, and maybe trying to improve your average speed a little because it can be quite good fun when you realise that some of those fashion co-ordinated, top-shelf kit riders aren't actually that good or fast once you get over the psychological barriers that are holding you back


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## Bollo (25 Sep 2017)

User13710 said:


> I don't do sportives, but I used to do the IoW Randonnee, which has become sadly sportive-like in recent years. The last time I did it, I was trundling up the hill at Freshwater at walking pace, being overtaken by clumps of lycra boys going full out. When I crested the top (no need to stop) I passed one of said boys puking his guts up on the verge. Have a nice ride, I thought.


And you never even stopped and asked if I was ok!


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## Gravity Aided (25 Sep 2017)

It isn't over the counter in Britain?


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## Gravity Aided (25 Sep 2017)

Oh, my. Over here it comes in just plain open packs and bottles, right out in the aisle, as with Lanzoprole. I'll bet Amazon could send some over.


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## PaulSB (25 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> That's clubs, and ( the vast majority ) of Sportives summed up nicely.



Oh that's a bit harsh. I've been a member of three Lancashire clubs and none behave this way. Each have always looked after riders who might be struggling on a particular ride.

In my current club, Chorley, we have four different ride levels and members are encouraged to step up a level when ready. If a new member turns out and after a couple of rides it's apparent he/she is on the wrong ride a quiet suggestion of building experience on another ride would be made. 

As for sportives, yes there are some charity ones were less experienced riders behave this way, but I'd say the club organised events never have this behaviour.

I do think though there are some events, Manchester - Blackpool being one, where the behaviour of many participants leaves a huge amount to be desired. Personally I find it so embarrassing I'll never ride it again.


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## I like Skol (25 Sep 2017)

PaulSB said:


> As for sportives, yes there are some charity ones were less experienced riders behave this way, but I'd say the club organised events never have this behaviour.
> 
> I do think though there are some events, Manchester - Blackpool being one, where the behaviour of many participants leaves a huge amount to be desired. Personally I find it so embarrassing I'll never ride it again.


I think you have missed the OP's point spectacularly!
SteveC isn't complaining about the clowns-on-bikes brigade that plague some of the more popular fun/charity ride events. His complaint is about perceived elitism of the riders and organisers not making anybody that doesn't fit the template of experienced club rider welcome.


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## Bollo (25 Sep 2017)

I like the way this is going. My 'proper cyclist jar' hasn't had a top up in a while....


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## Debade (25 Sep 2017)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I can't quite figure out what your issues are, other than perhaps the broom wagon wasn't a broom wagon.
> 
> You joined an event where you arrived in attire different from the rest. Would you like them to change to fit in with you? If you go to a black-tie dinner and arrive in a track suit, you will feel odd and people may notice. You may notice that they notice, but that's your issue, not theirs.
> 
> ...



What a shame that a Sportive event can't include all riders. I know some are designed to do that. Perhaps this one is not.

Most bicycling advocates learn quickly that bike clubs are not a great place to get support for the more casual, non-Lycra rider. Speaking in generalities, the clubs view biking as a competitive event. Casual riding and commuting are not included.

But, what a benefit clubs/Sportives could be for biking. The more riders, casual or 'time trail based' that are on the road add safety to the road. Encouraging the beginner or not as able cyclist, builds our numbers. More cyclists builds support for better roads, laws, and simply the expectation by motorists that there is a cyclist around every turn, which will lead to more careful driving. That is why I would love to see all events and clubs have a higher level of inclusion. 

Sure, you can toss the guy out who is wearing shorts to the tuxedo party. Or, you can find a way to include them in the event and earn their gratitude and support.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Sep 2017)

PaulSB said:


> Oh that's a bit harsh. I've been a member of three Lancashire clubs and none behave this way. Each have always looked after riders who might be struggling on a particular ride.
> 
> In my current club, Chorley, we have four different ride levels and members are encouraged to step up a level when ready. If a new member turns out and after a couple of rides it's apparent he/she is on the wrong ride a quiet suggestion of building experience on another ride would be made.
> 
> ...


I rarely bother with organised Sportives, the only ( non closed road ) Sportives I have done, have left a lot to be desired. The Velo Birmingham yesterday, was a closed road number, and was not too bad, the only memorable incident was one complete idiot, who failed to understand the physics of taking a fast right hand bend, and moved into a disappearing space, sending me wide, towards some traffic cones. Then he made some comments, then he crashed. 1 total idiot rider out of 15000, was a very good ratio for a Sportive though. It took me ages to find a club, local to me, that wasn't full of FP/RKW, but they can be found.


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## Rooster1 (25 Sep 2017)

Riding is not about the bike or the kit.
Riding is about what you do on your bike.
That's all you need to think about.


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## Welsh wheels (25 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> That's clubs, and ( the vast majority ) of Sportives summed up nicely.


That doesn't sum up clubs at all. There are many excellent clubs (including mine), where they look after their members, wait for them and don't turn every ride into a race.


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## steveindenmark (25 Sep 2017)

I've never been a proper cyclist and the nicest cyclists I meet are in bus shelters when it's belting down with rain and all the "proper" cyclists are at home keeping dry.


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## TheJDog (25 Sep 2017)

I turned up to a sportive a few years ago and the one guy at the start line training shoes and other not entirely proper attire nicked my bike.


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## Globalti (25 Sep 2017)

We've done the Manchester 100 three times and when filling in your application form you are asked what time you expect to take for the 100 miles. We replied "6 hours" and found ourselves starting at the unholy hour of 7.30; I reckon event organisers will start the faster riders earlier so as to reduce as much as possible the numbers of faster riders overtaking slower riders. There was certainly a noticeable increase in disorganised large groups to get past once the 100 km route rejoined us later on.

I know the organisers of the Cape Argus, 110 kms with 32,000 riders do operate the same seeding policy.


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## PaulSB (25 Sep 2017)

I like Skol said:


> I think you have missed the OP's point spectacularly!
> SteveC isn't complaining about the clowns-on-bikes brigade that plague some of the more popular fun/charity ride events. His complaint is about perceived elitism of the riders and organisers not making anybody that doesn't fit the template of experienced club rider welcome.



No I didn't miss his point at all but equally I didn't reply to it. My response was to Racing roadkill who I felt rather tarred all clubs and sportives with the same brush. My experience is this is not the case though I can only comment on the large number of excellent and friendly clubs in the northwest.


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## Lonestar (25 Sep 2017)

Bollo said:


> And you never even stopped and asked if I was ok!



I'm no doctor but at a guess I think I know the answer to this one.


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## Ajax Bay (25 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> What an absolute bunch of lycra clad cockwombles. Thats all i have to say about yesterdays sportif my mate and me entered.
> I wont be mentioning any clubs or charitys involved other than the fact that it was a farce from the second we turned up.
> First batch of riders were supposed to set of at 9.30 on our ride over to the hq we saw at least 30 odd passing us on the planned route.
> Get there only to be eyed up and down by the organsiser. Book in and then get told we are the last lot to go this was at 9.30.
> ...


Well at least your entry fee will have gone to a good charity, for example the Essex and Herts Air Ambulance.
https://ehaat.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FB_IMG_1504175857491-002.jpg
With regard to the riders on the road before 09:30, I suspect that since they opened registration at 08:00 they thought "let's get some riders on the road - why not?". Remember, it's not a race.
You get there; register and they have filled the other start times so allocate you a 09:30 slot (which remember you thought was when the first start was). Bit paranoid to think that it was your clothing that the organiser took into account when deciding what start slot to give you.
What were your wearing and what bikes were you and your mate riding anyway?
Seems entirely sensible for the organiser to ride round the route, starting behind everyone, to - a. get a ride in; but mainly b. get an idea of what sort of speed people are making and therefore an idea of timings for the volunteers running the 'rest stop'; and indeed the finish a few hours later (I hope you called the organiser to say that you had abandoned).
Hope that you find your next sportive fits your expectations better.
(And for @mjr - No hat, no ride)


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## mjr (25 Sep 2017)

I like Skol said:


> I think you have missed the OP's point spectacularly!
> SteveC isn't complaining about the clowns-on-bikes brigade that plague some of the more popular fun/charity ride events. His complaint is about perceived elitism of the riders and organisers not making anybody that doesn't fit the template of experienced club rider welcome.


Are you sure about that? It seemed that @Stevec047 was complaining more about being made to feel especially unwelcome at a ride that was advertised as "for all".

I'm not sure it's fair to generalise that criticism to all "club arranged sportifs" as he does but I've only ever done charity and commercial ones, not any club ones (I think only the local BC clubs organise them and I won't ride under BC sportive rules), so I can't disprove the claim.


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## I like Skol (25 Sep 2017)

PaulSB said:


> No I didn't miss his point at all but equally I didn't reply to it. My response was to Racing roadkill who I felt rather tarred all clubs and sportives with the same brush.


???


Racing roadkill said:


> That's clubs, and ( the vast majority ) of Sportives summed up nicely.





PaulSB said:


> As for sportives, yes there are some charity ones were less experienced riders behave this way, but I'd say the club organised events never have this behaviour.
> I do think though there are some events, Manchester - Blackpool being one, where the behaviour of many participants leaves a huge amount to be desired. Personally I find it so embarrassing I'll never ride it again.



I don't see RR commenting on less experienced, amateurish or embarrassingly poor behaviour in his post, just reinforcing the snobbish, aloof, elitist connotations of the OP.


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## cm2mackem (25 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> What an absolute bunch of lycra clad cockwombles. Thats all i have to say about yesterdays sportif my mate and me entered.
> 
> I wont be mentioning any clubs or charitys involved other than the fact that it was a farce from the second we turned up.
> 
> ...


Did it start in East London? yesterday , as it is every year, is a complete cock-up


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## mjr (25 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Well at least your entry fee will have gone to a good charity, for example the Essex and Herts Air Ambulance.
> https://ehaat.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FB_IMG_1504175857491-002.jpg
> With regard to the riders on the road before 09:30, I suspect that since they opened registration at 08:00 they thought "let's get some riders on the road - why not?".


Ho ho! The advert says "Please remember - No Hat, No Ride!" I could have had some fun with that, as I usually wear a hat while cycling 

Why not start riders before the start? Because the advert clearly said "first riders start 9.30am" so it's a bit shoot if you turn up in plenty of time for that and the start was really 8.30am but only for those in the know or the organisers' mates. You arrive thinking you're going to be in a random wave of a mass start and riding round in company, but in reality you find your reward for simply believing the advert is starting at the back, where you're likely to spend a fair chunk of the day dealing with overtaking dropped riders and being overtaken by those who have had mechanical problems and then the final straw is the farking broom does what it should never do and overtakes the back of the ride! Yeah, at that point, I'd probably go find a nice cafe or pub instead...


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## petek (25 Sep 2017)

What is a 'sportive'?


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## Ajax Bay (25 Sep 2017)

petek said:


> a 'sportive'


https://ehaat.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/FB_IMG_1504175857491-002.jpg
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/sportives
"A *cyclosportive*, or often simply *sportive*, is a short to long distance, organised, mass-participation cycling event, 
Cyclosportive is short for the French term *randonnée cyclosportive* (the spelling *cyclosportif* is sometimes also used but _cyclosportive_ is correct as _randonnée_ is a feminine noun in French)."


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## Dave Davenport (25 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> It took me ages to find a club, local to me, that wasn't full of FP/RKW, but they can be found.


Which club?


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## petek (25 Sep 2017)

Thanks Ajax.
It does say 'challenging' so that would rule me out right away.
Seems like a great idea and also raising money for a very good cause.
Perhaps the clue is in that 'sport' part of 'sportive'.
One might expect a sporting/challenging ethos.
That said, it is a very short sighted club official who doesn't go out of her/his way to welcome new people.
New people make new members.
Locally the cycling club nearest to us is all uniformed-lycra, drop handlebars and folks built like racing snakes. Very smart they look too when out and about. Suits those who like it but us older chaps on eclectic (plus some electric ) bicycles choose to slowly bimble about in a small group of the likeminded.
Cake featuring more prominently than does mileage covered.


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## ianrauk (25 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> I rarely bother with organised Sportives, the only ( non closed road ) Sportives I have done, have left a lot to be desired. The Velo Birmingham yesterday, was a closed road number, and was not too bad, the only memorable incident was one complete idiot, who failed to understand the physics of taking a fast right hand bend, and moved into a disappearing space, sending me wide, towards some traffic cones. Then he made some comments, then he crashed. 1 total idiot rider out of 15000, was a very good ratio for a Sportive though. It took me ages to find a club, local to me, that wasn't full of FP/RKW, but they can be found.




You wear full pro team kit do you not?


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## Ajax Bay (25 Sep 2017)

ianrauk said:


> You wear full pro team kit do you not?


Nope: Maillot Jeune for rr, and deep section carbon wheels. Goodness knows what the OP would have made of it/him when arriving to register.


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## roadrash (25 Sep 2017)

I really cant understand why people get irate about what SOMEONE ELSE is wearing, please someone explain it to me, I just don't get it


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## petek (25 Sep 2017)

roadrash said:


> I really cant understand why people get irate about what SOMEONE ELSE is wearing, please someone explain it to me, I just don't get it



Any bicyclist not wearing at least one woven-tweed item of clothing is unworthy of that name.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Sep 2017)

ianrauk said:


> You wear full pro team kit do you not?


Only when it's on special offer at the outlet store. 30 quid for a set of bibs and a jersey with the mits and socks chucked in for free, isn't to be sniffed at. I'd not be seen dead in full price FPWK though.


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## Racing roadkill (25 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Nope: Maillot Jeune for rr, and deep section carbon wheels. Goodness knows what the OP would have made of it/him when arriving to register.


I didn't pay for the Jersey, so that's okay ( I think ), according to the 'rules' Those aren't carbon rims either, and not 'that' deep.


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## ianrauk (25 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> Only when it's on special offer at the outlet store. 30 quid for a set of bibs and a jersey with the mits and socks chucked in for free, isn't to be sniffed at. I'd not be seen dead in full price FPWK though.




So how do you know these other guys didn't get for cheaper at the outlet store?


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## Racing roadkill (25 Sep 2017)

ianrauk said:


> So how do you know these other guys didn't get for cheaper at the outlet store?


They still had the labels on them.


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## PaulSB (25 Sep 2017)

I like Skol said:


> ???
> 
> I don't see RR commenting on less experienced, amateurish or embarrassingly poor behaviour in his post, just reinforcing the snobbish, aloof, elitist connotations of the OP.



Straight off apologies if I failed to make myself clear. 

In my view I thought my first two paragraphs addressed the assertion by RR all clubs and sportive behaviour is of the type the OP didn't enjoy. I described how my own club runs as an example.

My third paragraph refers to less experienced riders who, in my understanding of the OP, would be those in full pro kit on expensive bikes. My experience is some such riders do ride in this way. Some not all. 

My fourth paragraph commented on a well known event up here in which many participants think they can do whatever they wish with no thought for others.


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## Ajax Bay (25 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> I didn't pay for the Jersey, so that's okay ( I think ), according to the 'rules' Those aren't carbon rims either, and not 'that' deep.


By the 'rules' that's fine. But what would the OP think if he saw you thus attired with lycra and apparently expensive bike/wheels?
"an absolute bunch of lycra clad cockwombles - all the £2k + bikes and branded attire"
I know: you're going to say that your bike cost less than a grand.
I agree with @roadrash - really not worth being concerned what other cyclists are wearing or riding, unless there are safety issues (and I'm NOT talking helmet/hi-viz/relective/black ninja issues here).


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## mjr (25 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Nope: Maillot Jeune for rr,


Not sure he's trés jeune (young) by the looks of that pic


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## Tim Hall (25 Sep 2017)

User said:


> Certainly isn't


Is this the secondhand shorts thread?


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## jarlrmai (25 Sep 2017)

Sooner or later all threads are the secondhand shorts thread.


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## Bollo (25 Sep 2017)

jarlrmai said:


> Sooner or later all threads are the secondhand shorts thread.


That is the Smiths lyric that never was.


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## screenman (25 Sep 2017)

roadrash said:


> I really cant understand why people get irate about what SOMEONE ELSE is wearing, please someone explain it to me, I just don't get it



I do think that it is the person imagining that people are getting irate, when nobody actually is.


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## Donger (25 Sep 2017)

At long last I'm about to do my first ever sportive next weekend ... the Cotswold Autumn Classic 100km. If I'm honest, it's something I may be guilty of putting off for a while, as I have a few preconceptions about sportives myself, being more of an audaxer by nature. Hopefully it won't be the alphamaleothon that I have built it up to be. 

This year I have talked a few clubmates into doing their first audaxes (a couple of them in bitter winter weather), so when invited along by one of them to enter a sportive, I had to say yes. Hopefully I'll enjoy the experience, though I'm a bit nervous of the whole concept of a broom wagon and published finishing times. I'm not your typical sportive type. I may wear lycra, but I ride a heavy steel tourer and I have the body shape and size of a rugby second row forward. When it comes to hills I just winch myself up slowly and have to ignore how fast everyone else is going. I have the endurance but not the speed.

Whatever my upcoming experience may be, I can certainly recommend to the OP to give audaxing a try instead as a possible alternative to sportives. It is a whole lot cheaper (typically £5-7 per event instead of the £28 I've paid for this sportive) and it really does cater for all types ..... though you have to be more self sufficient as you are left to find your own way round the course and carry out your own repairs etc. I have found audaxes to be very friendly events, and have made some good friends out on audaxes while riding along with people who were content doing the same speed as me and taking in the scenery. Organised events don't have to be about racing around, nose to the bars and ass in the air. Hopefully my preconceptions will be wrong and we'll be able to appreciate the scenery on this sportive as well .... though I'm determined to stay ahead of the broom wagon and am rather fixating on that at the moment.


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## Fab Foodie (25 Sep 2017)

With regard to Sportives, I'm definately of the 'no hat, no ride' persuasion.


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## vickster (25 Sep 2017)

You can get Nexium otc too  almost certainly cheaper via GP though pill for pill


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## Bollo (25 Sep 2017)

In a rare outbreak of earnestness....

Sportives take a lot of crap on the forum. They're not my cup of tea, but that isn't to say that they don't have a place or fulfil a need. There's nowt wrong with a well-organised, inclusive sportive that generates a bit of motivation and supports its riders.

There'll always be people who want to turn any activity into their own private club and the only response is to flip a mental finger and get on with your own thing. Attitude isn't related to ability - some of the nicest, most supportive cyclists I know are also the most talented.


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## Bollo (25 Sep 2017)

User said:


> Nexium contains esomeprazole, which is an enantiomer of Omeprazole.


If you could just slip that into a jiffibag and drive it over....


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## mjr (25 Sep 2017)

Bollo said:


> If you could just slip that into a jiffibag and drive it over....


No, I don't want my laptop stolen TYVM!


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## slowmotion (25 Sep 2017)

User said:


> Nexium contains esomeprazole, which is an enantiomer of Omeprazole.


ICMFP

[media]
]View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXROnzpsrlg[/media]


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## I like Skol (25 Sep 2017)

Bollo said:


> some of the nicest, most supportive cyclists I know are also the most talented.


You say the sweetest things....


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## Bollo (25 Sep 2017)

I like Skol said:


> You say the sweetest things....


Skol and Bollo sitting in a tree........and Bollo telling Skol that it's complicated.


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## Tin Pot (25 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> at 9.30 on our ride over to the hq we saw at least 30 odd passing us on the planned route.


So what?


Stevec047 said:


> Get there only to be eyed up and down by the organsiser.


So what?


Stevec047 said:


> Book in and then get told we are the last lot to go this was at 9.30.


So what?


Stevec047 said:


> Off we head and to say we didnt fit in around all the £2k + bikes and branded attire is an understatement.



So what?


Stevec047 said:


> The group of 15 shot off and left us to our own devices.



So what?


Stevec047 said:


> 10 miles in the broom wagen flys past us


Hurry up then.


> At this point we decided to ditch the sportif...


What sportif? The broom wagon had passed you...You left noting.


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## Cronorider (26 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> What an absolute bunch of lycra clad cockwombles. .



What's the matter with lycra?


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## Illaveago (26 Sep 2017)

I came across an organised cycle ride whilst driving South last year. There was a lead car with headlights on with a group of cyclists following on behind which gradually thinned out. As I passed the main group of riders I came across small groups followed by a car at the rear of so I thought. I continued on my way passing other cyclists who were unable to keep up and left to fend for themselves.
I did not like seeing that "Survival of the Fittest" attitude in action and would not wish to join in such an event.


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## Ajax Bay (26 Sep 2017)

Illaveago said:


> other cyclists who were unable to keep up and left to fend for themselves


Oh, the poor dears! How can they have managed without a car ahead of them with headlights on and a car behind them? Fending for themselves. Rugged. Bold. Enjoying their ride, I hope.


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## Ajax Bay (26 Sep 2017)

User46386 said:


> this wasnt the event for you and that you would be better off trying an Audax


The "lycra clad cockwomble and £2k + bikes and branded attire" quotient will be low on an audax. And there is always a range of speeds. The minimum speed required to get round and appear on the list of finishers (which by the way does not include time and is ordered alphabetically by surname) is 15kph. There is no 'broom wagon' no support and there are no signs (except at the start/finish gateway). Everyone on the ride starts together, at the advertised time. The organiser may say a few words (last minute info or whatever) and then say 'well you may as well go then' and riders roll away.
There's one near you in a fortnight, in memory of Richard Ellis, a friendly and capable audax rider. The East Anglia calendar is here - entries from one and all welcome. Also I think you'd find the ACME crowd pretty welcoming (Audax Club Mid Essex).


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## mjr (26 Sep 2017)

Cronorider said:


> What's the matter with lycra?


It makes your cock look like a womble, as far as I can tell from the OP.


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## mjr (26 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> the list of finishers (which by the way does not include time and is ordered alphabetically by surname)


I think the results are split into AUK members first and lepers last.



Ajax Bay said:


> Everyone on the ride starts together, at the advertised time.


Not my memory of it but maybe we were in the car park when the start was out on the road or something.

That's just two small differences, though. Audax is probably still well worth a go if you'd like something more organised than a social group ride but more relaxed than most sportives.


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## Illaveago (26 Sep 2017)

Uncle Bulge Area?


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## Andrew_P (26 Sep 2017)

Don't really want to wade in but I am going to! If you can afford it, buy it and ride it, if you want to wear Lycra wear Lycra the strangest one to me has always been paying to cycle on public roads being told where to go with a huge swathe of different types of riders. It never has smacked of being fun to me. But I don't think people who do enjoy it as Cockwomble! Its quite a strange thing the perception (I guess we all have to an extent) of people by the way they look or the things they own.

Would the OP not be considered a Lycra wearing Cockwomble *whatever that is) cyclist by the non cycling public? Going by his Profile Pic. To make this post to satisfy my OCD I had to add Cockwomble to my dictionary...


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## Markymark (26 Sep 2017)

When I go for a ride I don't really care what other cyclists do or wear.

When I do a sportive I don't really care what other cyclists do or wear.

When I'm on cycle chat I don't really care what cyclists do or wear.

When I meet up with some of them in Cambridge I now do care what cyclists do and wear because I spent April in shock at the hideousness I was presented with.


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## Markymark (26 Sep 2017)

User said:


> Goodness it is fortunate I couldn't make it then.


Something that was mused on by us all


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## smutchin (26 Sep 2017)

Illaveago said:


> I did not like seeing that "Survival of the Fittest" attitude in action and would not wish to join in such an event.



Sounds like it was a road race that you encountered. Entirely different kettle of fish to sportives. You can't stop a race to wait for dropped riders to catch up - that would be missing the point somewhat.


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## Bollo (26 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Sounds like it was a road race that you encountered. Entirely different kettle of fish to sportives. You can't stop a race to wait for dropped riders to catch up - that would be missing the point somewhat.


Unless you're Chris Froome of course. 

However, if you were Nibali you'd just hitch a lift with the team car back to the front.


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## Racing roadkill (26 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Sounds like it was a road race that you encountered. Entirely different kettle of fish to sportives. You can't stop a race to wait for dropped riders to catch up - that would be missing the point somewhat.


Sportives are road races, have you not heard?


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## smutchin (26 Sep 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> Sportives are road races, have you not heard?



Grow up.


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## Randomnerd (26 Sep 2017)

OP - chip on shoulder I fear. Put yourself in a sportive and expect to meet cyclists with all manner of bikes, shorts, opinions and riding styles. This is life. For the good of cycling, let's stop thrashing each other with negative reports. Try Audax UK if you want something more self-sufficient. Some good days out to be had. Oh, and save up for some better shorts, huh?


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## jefmcg (26 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> Off we head and to say we didnt fit in around all the £2k + bikes and branded attire is an understatement. The group of 15 shot off and left us to our own devices.


This is where I am stuck. A bunch of strangers who are more serious about cycling and much faster didn't hand around to wait for you?


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## NorthernDave (26 Sep 2017)

Markymark said:


> When I meet up with some of them in Cambridge I now do care what cyclists do and wear because I spent April in shock at the hideousness I was presented with.



Blimey, that's a bit for North for you isn't it? No wonder you were out of sorts...had you had your inoculations?


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## Oxo (26 Sep 2017)

Markymark said:


> When I meet up with some of them in Cambridge I now do care what cyclists do and wear because I spent April in shock at the hideousness I was presented with.


Surely not those dressed in caps, gowns and bicycle clips?


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## Mugshot (26 Sep 2017)

Illaveago said:


> Uncle Bulge Area?


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> Don't really want to wade in but I am going to! If you can afford it, buy it and ride it, if you want to wear Lycra wear Lycra *the strangest one to me has always been paying to cycle on public roads* being told where to go with a huge swathe of different types of riders. It never has smacked of being fun to me. But I don't think people who do enjoy it as Cockwomble! Its quite a strange thing the perception (I guess we all have to an extent) of people by the way they look or the things they own.



I agree, I struggle with the basic concept.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

You're not paying to ride on public roads, you're paying for the support and organisation, and in some instances for the closure of those roads so you can enjoy riding on them without motor traffic for company.

'Being told where to go' is a bizarre way of looking at it too - the main purpose of entering any organised cycling event for me is the pleasure of riding a route that someone else has gone to the trouble of devising, usually in an area where I don't normally ride so wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to come up with a decent route myself.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> You're not paying to ride on public roads, you're paying for the support and organisation, and in some instances for the closure of those roads so you can enjoy riding on them without motor traffic for company.
> 
> 'Being told where to go' is a bizarre way of looking at it too - the main purpose of entering any organised cycling event for me is the pleasure of riding a route that someone else has gone to the trouble of devising, usually in an area where I don't normally ride so wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to come up with a decent route myself.


Maybe I am just more independent, can use a map or Garmin and quite happy to stop off at a shop or coffee shop for some refreshment of my choice. Some of my best rides have been in areas I have never been to and just feeling my way around using a Garmin and my sense of direction. The ones I have looked at as my Daughter showed some interest all seemed to be advertising events that you paid for or outright money making.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> Maybe I am just more independent



I did a 600km ride in Belgium this year, using a route I devised myself, on roads I've never ridden before, so I doubt a lack of independence is anything to do with why I like riding organised events.

Somehow I manage to find room in my life for many different kinds of cycling and see the merits in all of them.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> You're not paying to ride on public roads, you're paying for the support and organisation, and in some instances for the closure of those roads so you can enjoy riding on them without motor traffic for company.
> 
> 'Being told where to go' is a bizarre way of looking at it too - the main purpose of entering any organised cycling event for me is the pleasure of riding a route that someone else has gone to the trouble of devising, usually in an area where I don't normally ride so wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to come up with a decent route myself.





Dogtrousers said:


> I don't
> 
> Audaxes and sportives tend to provide a bit of focus, where you can arrange too meet up with people, where the planning has been done for you, where maybe some food is provided along the way, and where you get a prize at the end - be it a bit of cardboard with AUK on it or a box of "free" gels and a plastic medal.



So it's paying to ride on a public road where somebody else has planned the route, to me the route planning is as much fun as the ride, and the option of an ever changing route is always good. Sportives and audaxes get people out on their bikes, which is cool, but it really is difficult to see what you get for your money.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> So it's paying to ride on a public road...



No, it isn't. HTH.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Well it's nice to have a choice. 90% of my riding is solo and self planned, but I like to do the odd audax to mix things up or a sportive to meet up with friends and so on, even if I am "paying to ride on public roads". As to "outright money making" I don't have a problem with it. I even do it myself.
> 
> Hell, even riding the Friday Night Ride to the Coast with the Fridays means paying to ride on public roads. A whole £2 per annum. Shameless money-makers that they are.



Not really sure why you are taking such umbrage as you keep pointing out the exact reasons I do not fancy a Sportive, I would say Fridays is more akin to a group ride almost deliberately not like a sportive all be it I have never been on Fridays but its how it looks. £2 kind of makes that point as well. The Wiggle Downs for a 17 year old who only fancies doing it with me and only wants the short course is £52! Not sure apart from a time chip and medal what else you get at the Feed station.


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## Ajax Bay (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> sportives and audaxes get people out on their bikes, which is cool, but it really is difficult to see what you get for your money.


Giles and @Andrew_P - as far as sportives are concerned, I absolutely agree with you - poor value for money and rarely worth doing.
However, like you and others who've posted, most of my riding is alone, on a self planned route. And believe me, I thoroughly enjoy the route planning aspects (hangover from orienteering inclinations). I assume you have enjoyed planning (your own route) and riding an end-to-end for example - I have.
Audaxes, though - as others have suggested above, it is a nice change to ride with others on a route that an organiser has taken trouble to design (probably with local knowledge and certainly with multiple recces). The cost of entering an audax is invariably low - and actually the act of entering generates a commitment: as opposed to 'I'll see what the weather's like and how I feel' approach. As an illustration, the Bryan Chapman Memorial 600 audax this year cost £57 to enter (iirc). Light breakfast at the start, three course meals (if you wanted) at the 200km point, the 300km point, the 375km point eat before sleep(optional sleep stop), the 375km point (breakfast), the 440km point (second breakfast/lunch) and either bunk or airbeds at the overnight (optional) stop (or at the 440km control). Food at the finish.
Good value? Well, I thought so. And the opportunity to ride with a few others, different riders for different sections but about half the distance alone (so a good balance for me YMMV). Would I have ridden the length of Wales and back that (or another) weekend if there was not an organised audax? Probably not. Was it fun? Most of the time: riding into drizzle, a headwind at dusk crossing Snowdonia was slightly Type 2, but buoyed by the 320km already ridden in good conditions. Was it a challenge? Certainly.


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## mjr (27 Sep 2017)

jefmcg said:


> This is where I am stuck. A bunch of strangers who are more serious about cycling and much faster didn't hand around to wait for you?


I interpreted that as something which could have rescued the ride, rather than necessarily a flaw itself. It also suggests that making @Stevec047 and friend start in the last group wasn't any sort of attempt at grouping similar-speed riders together - possibly even the opposite, putting them in with a load of racing snakes on glam bikes to get them dropped near-immediately and isolated.

I wonder whether the organiser did indeed "make sure [they] got to the rest stop" and whether there was any attempt to find out what happened to the lost entrants. I'd expect a sportive not to abandon riders unless the riders abandon the sportive or it's been explicitly described as a no-prisoners or race-the-broom type event.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

I would pay to ride closed road event


Dogtrousers said:


> Well, don't do one then.
> Me, I don't much like raw tomatoes. So I don't eat them.



Trying to think of a way to respond including your analogy, struggling to be honest. If Tomatoes were free it would be easy :-)


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> it is a nice change to ride with others on a route that an organiser has taken trouble to design (probably with local knowledge and certainly with multiple recces)



Indeed - no amount of poring over maps can replace local knowledge, and if you design your own routes, you're always taking a chance that you'll miss the best roads in an unfamiliar area.

Of course, you don't have to pay to enter organised events to take advantage of local knowledge, since Strava Heat Maps pretty much does the job for you, and people are often happy to share their routes for free, but that's not really route planning, so presumably if you enjoy route planning that much, you'll eschew such resources and wing it.

When you pay to enter a sportive or audax, you're paying for the whole package, and whether or not that package constitutes value for money is entirely up to you - I really couldn't care less if anyone thinks £52 to ride a Wiggle sportive is a rip-off. But what does irritate me is this oft-repeated trope that sportives are "paying to ride on public roads" which is just nonsense - as is much of the other guff that's regularly spouted in threads like this.


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## mjr (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Indeed - no amount of poring over maps can replace local knowledge, and if you design your own routes, you're always taking a chance that you'll miss the best roads in an unfamiliar area.


Or worse. I can't be the only person to have ended up facing the wrong way on an A road, can I? 

More usually, I sometimes end up on small roads with surprisingly much or surprisingly aggressive motor traffic. Less so since http://cycle.travel/map (which factors traffic levels into its calculations) but it still happens sometimes.



smutchin said:


> When you pay to enter a sportive or audax, you're paying for the whole package, and whether or not that package constitutes value for money is entirely up to you - I really couldn't care less if anyone thinks £52 to ride a Wiggle sportive is a rip-off. But what does irritate me is this oft-repeated trope that sportives are "paying to ride on public roads" which is just nonsense - as is much of the other guff that's regularly spouted in threads like this.


But to be fair, I've done at least one sportive where I'm not convinced the route planner had any more idea than I did (some of the roads used would have been very unpleasant if I hadn't been in a large group at that point) and the food and drink stations were understocked with I suspect whatever they could pick up cheap. If it's all open roads, you're paying for the route and support and finish, but then many sportives still seem a rip-off IMO - I think the OP should have named the club and event to warn others off, instead of suggesting they're all that bad, though.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Giles and @Andrew_P - as far as sportives are concerned, I absolutely agree with you - poor value for money and rarely worth doing.
> However, like you and others who've posted, most of my riding is alone, on a self planned route. And believe me, I thoroughly enjoy the route planning aspects (hangover from orienteering inclinations). I assume you have enjoyed planning (your own route) and riding an end-to-end for example - I have.
> Audaxes, though - as others have suggested above, it is a nice change to ride with others on a route that an organiser has taken trouble to design (probably with local knowledge and certainly with multiple recces). The cost of entering an audax is invariably low - and actually the act of entering generates a commitment: as opposed to 'I'll see what the weather's like and how I feel' approach. As an illustration, the Bryan Chapman Memorial 600 audax this year cost £57 to enter (iirc). Light breakfast at the start, three course meals (if you wanted) at the 200km point, the 300km point, the 375km point eat before sleep(optional sleep stop), the 375km point (breakfast), the 440km point (second breakfast/lunch) and either bunk or airbeds at the overnight (optional) stop (or at the 440km control). Food at the finish.
> Good value? Well, I thought so. And the opportunity to ride with a few others, different riders for different sections but about half the distance alone (so a good balance for me YMMV). Would I have ridden the length of Wales and back that (or another) weekend if there was not an organised audax? Probably not. Was it fun? Most of the time: riding into drizzle, a headwind at dusk crossing Snowdonia was slightly Type 2, but buoyed by the 320km already ridden in good conditions. Was it a challenge? Certainly.



I understand that Audaxes are very different and much better value for money than most Sportives, I have ridden a couple of Audaxes and quite enjoyed them, that was a long time ago and before anybody had ever thought about Sportives in the UK, although the mad long ones similar to the one you've referred to above have never excited me, but cool for those that enjoy them. These days I usually ride alone, with my better half, or in a small group, I'll probably join a club again later this year, the first one since I stopped racing in 1988, I may try another Audax, or even a Sportive, but if I do, I am sure at some point I will think, I could do this for free, and without a load of people on bikes around, who cannot ride bikes.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> When you pay to enter a sportive or audax, you're paying for the whole package, and whether or not that package constitutes value for money is entirely up to you - I really couldn't care less if anyone thinks £52 to ride a Wiggle sportive is a rip-off. But what does irritate me is this oft-repeated trope that sportives are "paying to ride on public roads" which is just nonsense - as is much of the other guff that's regularly spouted in threads like this.



The amount of money is not the point, and as long as people who enter are happy, then nobody should care, but whatever way you try to look at it, if it's not on closed roads, you are paying to ride on a public road, the main purpose of the Sportive must be the bike ride, which is on a public road, and you are paying for it.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> The amount of money is not the point, and as long as people who enter are happy, then nobody should care, but whatever way you try to look at it, if it's not on closed roads, you are paying to ride on a public road, the main purpose of the Sportive must be the bike ride, which is on a public road, and you are paying for it.



I've just consulted the spreadsheet for the event I ran earlier this month. Nope... however hard I look, I just can't see any entry that relates to a payment for riding on public roads.

I could give you fairly precise details of exactly what the entry fee _did_ cover, but since the route was freely available online to download and I had no way of preventing anyone from riding it, there's absolutely no way you can claim that riders were paying to ride on public roads.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> I've just consulted the spreadsheet for the event I ran last month. Nope... however hard I look, I just can't see any entry that relates to a payment for riding on public roads.



Indeed, that's because you don't have to pay to ride a bike on the public roads, although if I did a sportive, and was the sort of person who did spreadsheets for their own cash, I would have to fill it in as £52 for bike ride on public roads.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)




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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> Indeed, that's because you don't have to pay to ride a bike on the public roads, although if I did a sportive, and was the sort of person who did spreadsheets for their own cash, I would have to fill it in as £52 for bike ride on public roads.



Just turn up and ride. No need to enter.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> "paying to ride on public roads" which is just nonsense - .


Sorry but they are public roads with the public on them in any form of transport at the same time as the event. They couldn't stop me turning up and following their route on the day in the groups of paying riders as long as I do not free load at the stops. The route will appear on Garmin or Strava anyway so its safe to assume the £52 is for sponsored refreshments, bananas flapjacks, some free muc off and medal and time chip. Next nugget should be why time them anyway?


smutchin said:


> I've just consulted the spreadsheet for the event I ran earlier this month. Nope... however hard I look, I just can't see any entry that relates to a payment for riding on public roads.
> 
> I could give you fairly precise details of exactly what the entry fee _did_ cover, but since the route was freely available online to download and I had no way of preventing anyone from riding it, there's absolutely no way you can claim that riders were paying to ride on public roads.


Out of interest how much did you have to pay to run the event on public roads? Do you have to consult at all with the local authority, would be surprised if you didn't?


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> Out of interest how much did you have to pay to run the event on public roads?



I'll give you two guesses. To make it even easier, the answer is already contained in at least one of my earlier posts.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> I'll give you two guesses. To make it even easier, the answer is already contained in at least one of my earlier posts.



Shoot you gonna make me go back and look?


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## ianrauk (27 Sep 2017)

**Mod hat on**

Alright guys, keep the convo civil please.


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## jiberjaber (27 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> The "lycra clad cockwomble and £2k + bikes and branded attire" quotient will be low on an audax. And there is always a range of speeds. The minimum speed required to get round and appear on the list of finishers (which by the way does not include time and is ordered alphabetically by surname) is 15kph. There is no 'broom wagon' no support and there are no signs (except at the start/finish gateway). Everyone on the ride starts together, at the advertised time. The organiser may say a few words (last minute info or whatever) and then say 'well you may as well go then' and riders roll away.
> There's one near you in a fortnight, in memory of Richard Ellis, a friendly and capable audax rider. The East Anglia calendar is here - entries from one and all welcome. Also I think you'd find the ACME crowd pretty welcoming (Audax Club Mid Essex).




You beat me to it!  I shall be there in my #ACME lycra and expensive bike, happy to provide a tow (for a small fee, with commemorative selfie picture at additional cost) 



User said:


> That or going a bit Tobermoray.



(Birthday card from my sis)


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> Sorry but they are public roads with the public on them in any form of transport at the same time as the event. They couldn't stop me turning up and following their route on the day in the groups of paying riders as long as I do not free load at the stops. The route will appear on Garmin or Strava anyway so its safe to assume the £52 is for sponsored refreshments, bananas flapjacks, some free muc off and medal and time chip. *Next nugget should be why time them anyway?*



I agree, but I'm sure that significantly adds to the appeal for many.


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

Most of us have GPS, timing for an event is hardly a big sell. Most of a sportive cost is profit for the organiser.


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## Stevec047 (27 Sep 2017)

To clarify I wasn't specifically saying all sportives were like this i have done a few pre this one both through clubs which have always been very inviting and also some larger set up ones.

The point i was trying to make which may not have come across in my initial post was the attitude of said club. Surely any club would want to encourage new members for the benifit of the hobby/sport as a whole.

Another club local to me is very accommodating to all capabilities from first time group riders to the seasoned speedy lot and has a wide range of rides, tt, sportifs, audex rides which cater for all. This club is no bigger than the other but just seem more accommodating and understanding.

Each to their own and if the club prefer to stick with serious riders only then thats fine but to look down at those that don't fit in seems to me a bit rude. 

Hey it is what it is not going to let it get to me.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Most of a sportive cost is profit for the organiser.



Another popular misconception right there. It might be true for some of the big commercial events but I doubt that many sportive organisers are making a living from it. Don't forget that many sportives are in aid of charity and run by volunteers, so no individual is making so much as a single penny of profit from them.

Also, don't underestimate the admin costs of running any organised cycling event which can account for a large chunk of the entry fee. Audax UK charges organisers £7 to register an event, plus the cost of brevet cards and validation fees etc. British Cycling charges a £50 registration fee for non-competitive events, plus a levy of £1.20 per rider. These fees cover event insurance, so if you choose not to go down the AUK or BC route, you will also have to pay for that separately. Then you've got other things to consider like the costs of producing signage, and marketing/publicity (assuming you want people to actually know about your event), plus all sorts of other miscellaneous costs and expenses.

If an event is held on closed roads, the running costs will be considerable.


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## Stevec047 (27 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> I interpreted that as something which could have rescued the ride, rather than necessarily a flaw itself. It also suggests that making @Stevec047 and friend start in the last group wasn't any sort of attempt at grouping similar-speed riders together - possibly even the opposite, putting them in with a load of racing snakes on glam bikes to get them dropped near-immediately and isolated.
> 
> I wonder whether the organiser did indeed "make sure [they] got to the rest stop" and whether there was any attempt to find out what happened to the lost entrants. I'd expect a sportive not to abandon riders unless the riders abandon the sportive or it's been explicitly described as a no-prisoners or race-the-broom type event.



From what we were able to gleam from the event a large number of people left at around 8.30 as we had passed a fair few on the way over. In this group there was a fair mixture of cycling types from full blown top notch kit to a couple of mtbs and a guy that looked like he had finished his service at the local church on what looked like a classic town bike.

When we asked we were just told well they were here so we let them go?

Being dropped by the group wasnt really an issue at all to eaither of us. In terms of checking up on us at the feed stop well the feed stop wasn't there when we arrived at the pub so the answer was no they didnt.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Another popular misconception right there. It might be true for some of the big commercial events but I doubt that many sportive organisers are making a living from it. Don't forget that many sportives are in aid of charity and run by volunteers, so no individual is making so much as a single penny of profit from them.
> 
> Also, don't underestimate the admin costs of running any organised cycling event which can account for a large chunk of the entry fee. Audax UK charges organisers £7 to register an event, plus the cost of brevet cards and validation fees etc. British Cycling charges a £50 registration fee for non-competitive events, plus a levy of £1.20 per rider. These fees cover event insurance, so if you choose not to go down the AUK or BC route, you will also have to pay for that separately. Then you've got other things to consider like the costs of producing signage, and marketing/publicity (assuming you want people to actually know about your event), plus all sorts of other miscellaneous costs and expenses.
> 
> If an event is held on closed roads, the running costs will be considerable.



I am sure that most are run in a not for profit (much profit) way as you describe, but it doesn't change the basic fact that in a Sportive on normally open roads, people are being charged for riding on a public road, you cannot argue with that, I accept that there is other stuff around it, and people seem happy to pay and take part, which is cool.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

Stevec047 said:


> Each to their own and if the club prefer to stick with serious riders only then thats fine but *to look down at those that don't fit in seems to me a bit rude. *



It's not good,and it's not right, but it does happen a lot in cycling, I'm sure I was guilty of the same back in my light weight, fit racing days, just ignore it, and have fun on your bike.


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## Ajax Bay (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Another popular misconception right there [money making]. It might be true for some of the big commercial events but I doubt that many sportive organisers are making a living from it. Don't forget that many sportives are in aid of charity and run by volunteers, so no individual is making so much as a single penny of profit from them.


Can you (or another contributor) provide a link to the accounts of a sportive showing how little or much organisers are 'making', whether as a profit for the commercial organising company or the charity (and I acknowledge there's sometimes overlap)?


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> As "basic facts" go, it's pretty good. Except for the minor detail that it's wrong, but we won't split hairs about that.



It's very not wrong, think of these two questions:
1. Is a Sportive a bike ride on Public Roads
2. Are you charged an entry fee to take part in a Sportive

Now I'm off out for a free bike ride on some lovely public roads, although I'd pay a few quid right now if somebody could turn the wind machine off.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> I accept that there is other stuff around it



If it weren't for that "other stuff", I wouldn't need to charge an entry fee for my events. QED.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Can you (or another contributor) provide a link to the accounts of a sportive showing how little or much organisers are 'making', whether as a profit for the commercial organising company or the charity (and I acknowledge there's sometimes overlap)?



Since it was @YukonBoy who made the claim, I'll leave it to him to back up his assertion. Or retract it if he can't provide the relevant evidence.


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## GilesM (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> If it weren't for that "other stuff", I wouldn't need to charge an entry fee for my events. QED.



I'm sure that's correct, and I'm very happy that people enjoy your events, but they are still paying cash to go for a bike ride on a public roads.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)




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## Tin Pot (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> I'm sure that's correct, and I'm very happy that people enjoy your events, but they are still paying cash to go *enter a sportive.*



FTFY


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## Ajax Bay (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Most of a sportive cost is profit for the organiser.





smutchin said:


> Since it was @YukonBoy who made the claim, I'll leave it to him to back up his assertion.


Can @YukonBoy (or another contributor) provide a link to the accounts of a sportive showing how little or much organisers are 'making', whether as a profit for the commercial organising company or the charity (and I acknowledge there's sometimes overlap)?


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> 1. Is a Sportive a bike ride on Public Roads



Not necessarily...
https://www.evanscycles.com/training-energy/ride-it-events_c/off_road-ride_type

<placeholder for shooting fish in a barrel emoticon>


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

I used to do the accounts for a well known sportive company. I cannot reveal the numbers as that is confidential but there is serious profit involved. I am sure this does not come as a surprise to anyone. The income clearly exceeds the costs.

If a sportive organiser is prepared to publish their income vs. outgoings to show they are not making a profit then go ahead.


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## Tin Pot (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> I used to do the accounts for a well known sportive company. I cannot reveal the numbers as that is confidential but there is serious profit involved. I am sure this does not come as a surprise to anyone. The income clearly exceeds the costs.
> 
> If a sportive organiser is prepared to publish their income vs. outgoings to show they are not making a profit then go ahead.



Don't be so shy.

https://wikileaks.org/


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Not necessarily...
> https://www.evanscycles.com/training-energy/ride-it-events_c/off_road-ride_type
> 
> <placeholder for shooting fish in a barrel emoticon>


Still somewhere the MTB'er could have gone alone for free?! First one I clicked on they advertised their MTB trails?! Cannock Chase ride £22 with Evans or Free?! https://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/INFD-8PYM6L 

Plus by the looks of it still public land, don't know why I am struggling with it so much and most seem to think its fine and dandy. I genuinely couldn't arrised to look back and try and find your post about payment or informing the local council but if its free its outrageous!


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> I used to do the accounts for a well known sportive company.



I'm guessing you're talking about a company like UKCE or similar, and sure, they are big commercial companies operating for profit, but the vast majority of sportives in the UK are small affairs run by clubs and unpaid volunteers.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> I'm guessing you're talking about a company like UKCE or similar, and sure, they are big commercial companies operating for profit, but the vast majority of sportives in the UK are small affairs run by clubs and unpaid volunteers.


So we are talking at cross purposes then? I am taking particular umbrage with businesses running marketing driven events on public roads and woods, for profit and for marketing. I still think all sportives are paying for something that is essentially (riding a bike) free. but each to their own on that level.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> I am taking particular umbrage with businesses running marketing driven events on public roads and woods, for profit and for marketing.



Why? What harm is it doing to you?


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Why? What harm is it doing to you?


Well if I was a MTB as a for instance they are stopping me using that trail effectively for the event. 

And in your case you didn't answer my polite and straightforward question do they have to pay to run their business on public infrastructure. Blimey you cannot even put up a market stall without getting hammered with costs. Private land charges people to park a car to sell on a boot sale. Well you get the picture its not rocket science.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

To remain consistent, I take the same umbrage with Dog Walking businesses using public parks to walk twenty+ dogs for free and the aggro that can cause.

Fark me you are making me sound like Victor Meldew, maybe its because as a business owner I get taxed to breathe and get barely anything back in return. So it could be envy I guess I just think its a nice earner for Evans Wiggle etc.to get people to pay (and make a profit) to become a captive audience for product placement and advertising (all charged for no doubt) a bit of staff overtime and a few flap jacks and bananas, same route every year I bet too so same signs no planning you can add cynic as well. For me its no different to someone putting up a pop shop in a retail centre and wondering why they get a bill


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## Ajax Bay (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Audax UK charges organisers £7 to register an event, plus the cost of brevet cards and validation fees etc.


From the Audax UK Organisers Handbook:
"To calculate your entry fee you will need to consider the following expenditure:
Audax UK brevet card & validation charges. Current charges for the 2016/7 season are:
Brevet Cards (Black & White) 35p [minimum charge of £7.00]
Validation Fee 20p (For each rider completing the event)
• Hire of start/finish and control venues
• Catering at start/finish and/or controls
• Your own organiser’s expenses e.g. for route checking etc.
• Expenses for your helpers
• Printing route sheets etc.
• Donation to charity/club funds
Aim to set your entry fee to make a small surplus based on your expected number of 
number of entrants; and related to the costs of putting on your event and the facilities offered."

Also a small additional charge is made to cover Paypal fees.


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## screenman (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Most of us have GPS, timing for an event is hardly a big sell. Most of a sportive cost is profit for the organiser.



I am suprised that with that knowledge you do not organise one every week.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> Fark me you are making me sound like Victor Meldew,



Er... no, you’re making yourself sound like Victor Meldrew.



> maybe its because as a business owner I get taxed to breathe and get barely anything back in return.



As you’ve said yourself several times, no one has to pay to cycle on public roads. Setting up stalls etc is a different matter.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> Er... no, you’re making yourself sound like Victor Meldrew.
> 
> 
> 
> As you’ve said yourself several times, no one has to pay to cycle on public roads. Setting up stalls etc is a different matter.


But running a business to charge people to ride on public roads is exactly like setting up a stall IMO. So are you not going to answer me as an event organiser do you have to pay anything to organise your event?


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> From the Audax UK Organisers Handbook:



Surprisingly easy to find that information, isn’t it?

(I say surprising, but most people don’t even bother looking.)


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## Ajax Bay (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> do you have to pay anything to organise your event?


Did you read my post? Is there anything on that list which looks like "fee to ride on public roads"?


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## jefmcg (27 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> people are being charged for riding on a public road, you cannot argue with that


They are also breathing air the whole time. Are you contending that they are being charged for that, too?


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> running a business to charge people to ride on public roads


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


>


I really had you down as being a bit more intelligent than that.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> I really had you down as being a bit more intelligent than that.



You also thought people paid to ride on public roads and you were wrong about that too.


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## mjr (27 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Can @YukonBoy (or another contributor) provide a link to the accounts of a sportive showing how little or much organisers are 'making', whether as a profit for the commercial organising company or the charity (and I acknowledge there's sometimes overlap)?


All of the specialist sportive organisers are still too small to have to publish full accounts, aren't they? But it looks like some of the biggest could be making £600kpa. The organisers who do it alongside other businesses don't seem to split it out from other event revenue, so it's hard to tell.

It's a bit of an arbitrary accounting decision whether the event profit appears as company profit or gets spent as staff pay or bonuses too, anyway.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> You also thought people paid to ride on public roads and you were wrong about that too.


I won't lower myself to the use of an emoji, you just carry ignoring my salient questions and keep kidding yourself about charging people to ride on public infrastructure. The next "Sportive" you organise send me a PM and I will pop along and ride it for free, I could test out how well you police your Flapjack & Hi5 stops too.


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## srw (27 Sep 2017)

Andrew_P said:


> I won't lower myself to the use of an emoji, you just carry ignoring my salient questions and keep kidding yourself about charging people to ride on public infrastructure. The next "Sportive" you organise send me a PM and I will pop along and ride it for free, I could test out how well you police your Flapjack & Hi5 stops too.


Keep an eye on the calendar, although if you're expecting Hi5s en route you might be disappointed.


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

screenman said:


> I am suprised that with that knowledge you do not organise one every week.



That comment makes about as much sense as an ashtray on a bike.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

srw said:


> Keep an eye on the calendar, although if you're expecting Hi5s en route you might be disappointed.


209km bugger that. That is nothing like what I have been going on about and @smutchin knows it (although still public roads) inserts relevant emoji. I had never "paid" it much thought until someone pulled me up on a throw away comment in this thread. The more I thought about it the more it developed! Also I will say the Evans rides that pass me near work from their Gatwick HQ are pretty badly marshalled if at all and run on some roads were I am not that keen as a solo cyclist and will detour (adding miles) to avoid most of the time let alone a large unorganised group that is leaving half spaces in a very long single file. Makes my toes curl every time I see them with the obligatory cars behind and attempting overtakes that are impossible. IMO there is a much safer, easier route back they have ignored my emailed suggestion though..


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## screenman (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> That comment makes about as much sense as an ashtray on a bike.



It was all to do with how easy some think it is to make money running a pretend race.


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

srw said:


> Keep an eye on the calendar, although if you're expecting Hi5s en route you might be disappointed.



That is an audax not a sportive.


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## Andrew_P (27 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Your question has been answered at least four times.


Who said that?


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## Cronorider (27 Sep 2017)

I recently rode in an organized event. Extremely well organized, well marked and marshalled route, great food afterwards, some camaraderie, all in all a very good day.


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## srw (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> That is an audax not a sportive.


Well spotted.

But it's a difference of name, not intent. You get to ride on the public roads using a route someone else has invented, you get some refreshments thrown in to your entry free, you get a shiny souvenir. The only difference is that you don't get arrows on poles to tell you where to go if your GPS goes wrong.

Any arguments about paying to ride on the public roads (which is where this thread has been diverted to) apply as much to @smutchin's event as they do a ride labelled as a "sportive" and not involving closed roads.


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

srw said:


> Well spotted.
> 
> But it's a difference of name, not intent. You get to ride on the public roads using a route someone else has invented, you get some refreshments thrown in to your entry free, you get a shiny souvenir. The only difference is that you don't get arrows on poles to tell you where to go if your GPS goes wrong.
> 
> Any arguments about paying to ride on the public roads (which is where this thread has been diverted to) apply as much to @smutchin's event as they do a ride labelled as a "sportive" and not involving closed roads.



Tell me what is this shiny souvenir you get for entering an audax?


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Go to the AUK site and navigate to results and awards /medals and badges.



Hmm, you dont get those in the entry fee though, do you? So what shiny is he referring to that you get for entering?


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## Ming the Merciless (27 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Not for entering, for validated completion.



I have only ever got a brevet card back, no metalwork...


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> That is an audax not a sportive.



As @srw says, the same arguments apply with regard to the matter of paying to ride on public roads. Ignore the stuff about medals, it’s a distraction. The differences between audax and sportives are mainly cosmetic.


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## smutchin (27 Sep 2017)

User said:


> Not attitudinal?



Not as much as some people like to think.


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## Ajax Bay (28 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


> The differences between audax and sportives are mainly cosmetic.


I think there are significant attitudinal differences: navigational self-reliance (signs/no signs), self-reliance (mechanicals), self-reliance (feeding). And events are invariably designed to achieve only a small surplus of income over expenditure so entry fees are low. So few riders will feel they're being ripped off, unlike in sportives.


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## Dogtrousers (28 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> I think there are significant attitudinal differences: navigational self-reliance (signs/no signs), self-reliance (mechanicals), self-reliance (feeding). And events are invariably designed to achieve only a small surplus of income over expenditure so entry fees are low. So few riders will feel they're being ripped off, unlike in sportives.


I'd say the navigational and support differences are cosmetic (but will add to a sportive organiser's overheads).

Audaxes self reliant for feeding? On X rated events maybe, but that's not the norm. For example the Ditchling Devil (200) provides a mountain of doughnuts at the start, a bacon sarnie stop on the outbound leg and a ginormous feast just after half way. Similarly the Kingdom of the East Saxons (400) included breakfast and two full meals.

As to the financial arrangements, the term "sportive" is so ill defined that it's impossible to generalise. It could be anything from a relatively low key club run affair like the Kentish Killer all the way to a monster like Ride London, with something like Evans "Ride It" in the middle.

I did a "Ride It" in S Wales and the differences from an Audax were only cursory. There were arrows on the route, but most people seemed to be navigating by GPS anyway, just as with an Audax. The feed stop at a pub was something of which an AUK org would have been proud with different kinds of cake, flapjacks, sandwiches, nuts, drinks (and, of course, gels). Fast people zoomed off at the start and slower people trundled along behind chatting, just like an Audax. I never had any need for or contact with on-road support so I didn't notice it. (But yes, it was shorter than most Audaxes)

On the other hand I did Velo Wales which was a closed road affair and that was completely un-Audaxy. It was none the worse for it, and was quite an occasion. People were on the streets supporting (although the spreading of tacks on the road wasn't terribly helpful), and it had a great vibe. That was the most expensive ride I've ever paid to enter, at around £60. I didn't feel in the least bit ripped off, even though I didn't touch the food at the food stops as I had a pork pie with me and stopped to buy my own ice-cream and coffee.

If people feel "ripped off" the chances are it's their own fault for not reading the description of what the event is before they pay. Unless of course, they actually _are _being ripped off, and fobbed off with some unripe bananas and sparse signage and so on. Or an Audax organiser gives hideous cryptic information control questions and then loses the brevet cards.

Do I prefer these to simply setting off on my own for the day armed with nothing but a packed lunch and knowledge of the area? No, they are all different experiences.


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## GilesM (28 Sep 2017)

smutchin said:


>



You're the one who is arguing black is white.


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## ianrauk (28 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> You're the one who is arguing black is white.



*Mod hat on*

Right guys. That's enough of the snipping at each other. I've asked you once already. No more ok.


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## Fab Foodie (28 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'd say the navigational and support differences are cosmetic (but will add to a sportive organiser's overheads).
> 
> Audaxes self reliant for feeding? On X rated events maybe, but that's not the norm. For example the Ditchling Devil (200) provides a mountain of doughnuts at the start, a bacon sarnie stop on the outbound leg and a ginormous feast just after half way. Similarly the Kingdom of the East Saxons (400) included breakfast and two full meals.
> 
> ...


Inna nutshell ^^^^


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## Fab Foodie (28 Sep 2017)

Here is a picture of me NOT signing-on for an Evans 'Ride-it' Event which I rode with my buddies (who had helmets and entered). 
I have not been smited by the cycling gods for this act of defiance.
It was a great ride, well organised, all kinds of peoples and I wasn't the only Brommie-rider either.
Cycling is a broad-church from grannies riding to the market on their shoppers to full team-kit cyclewankers pretending to be Contador. There is almost something for everybody and if there isn't something for cyclist like you, then don't bitch, go start something yourself.


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## jiberjaber (28 Sep 2017)

@Stevec047 just another option, The Suffolk Byways 117km from Blaxhall (just past Ipswitch) is on this weekend, though you have to be quick to register as entries close today

http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/17-105/

A very nice route and was my first ever Audax


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## mjr (28 Sep 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> You also get a brevet card, which is quite glossy. Under a strong enough light it could be considered shiny.


My brevet card got a foil sticker applied when I completed. It is definitely shiny.



Fab Foodie said:


> Here is a picture of me NOT signing-on for an Evans 'Ride-it' Event which I rode with my buddies (who had helmets and entered).
> I have not been smited by the cycling gods for this act of defiance.


I stopped riding along sportives with friends because the last one that I did, I was almost smote by the cycling gods. At least, they seemed to act like they were gods and were cycling in a way that almost smote me off the road. I'm sorry to say that around here at least, I feel there are too many dangerous riders on sportives and organisers are doing absolutely fark all to reduce the risk they pose to others: is it really enough to impose irrelevant clothing and bike requirements and give a short talk with safety topics muddled up with stuff like feed station locations on the start line when everyone's chatting with each other and chomping at the bit to get riding? No noticeable monitoring out on the course, no invitation to submit rider camera videos and no sanctioning of unsafe riders that I've ever heard about.


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## Ajax Bay (28 Sep 2017)

User said:


> Some AUK audaxes also give out bling for completion


The only one I have is for completion of LEL - which is not your typical audax.


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## GilesM (28 Sep 2017)

Fab Foodie said:


> Here is a picture of me NOT signing-on for an Evans 'Ride-it' Event which I rode with my buddies (who had helmets and entered).
> I have not been smited by the cycling gods for this act of defiance.
> It was a great ride, well organised, all kinds of peoples and I wasn't the only Brommie-rider either.
> Cycling is a broad-church from grannies riding to the market on their shoppers to full team-kit cyclewankers pretending to be Contador. There is almost something for everybody and if there isn't something for cyclist like you, then don't bitch, go start something yourself.
> ...



Love the hat in the picture, if that was the required head gear for sportives, I could be interested.


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## Ajax Bay (28 Sep 2017)

You might have done: there was an 'Adrian' stalwart behind the desk (I finished at 22:26 on Thursday!). A few hours sleep and then back out volunteering, seeing the 'bulge' in, and the Friday afternoon and evening clearing up.


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## Fab Foodie (28 Sep 2017)

GilesM said:


> Love the hat in the picture, if that was the required head gear for sportives, I could be interested.


Available from 'Look Mum No Hands'.


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## GilesM (28 Sep 2017)

Fab Foodie said:


> Available from 'Look Mum No Hands'.



Thanks, that's a very cool website, I got myself a North Wave cap to replace some of my more well matured ones a few months ago, but I can hear the Look Mum No Hands ones calling to me.


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## Tim Hall (28 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> The only one I have is for completion of LEL - which is not your typical audax.
> 
> 
> View attachment 375799


Thirteen pages and we finally get to the point of the thread. It's all a ruse so Ajax Bay can show off their LEL medal.


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## Ajax Bay (28 Sep 2017)

Thank you, @Tin Pot .Edit: @Tim Hall . As ruses go that's of Agatha Christie complexity. Shiny. Shiny. (They produced 10% of them in gold colour too - but in true audax manner, the gold ones were dished out at random (perhaps @User can confirm).) I am pleased to have completed the ride - brought into sharp relief by my serious 'off' a month ago - glad that was after MP1K and LEL.


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## Cronorider (28 Sep 2017)

mjr said:


> My brevet card got a foil sticker applied when I completed. It is definitely shiny.
> 
> 
> I stopped riding along sportives with friends because the last one that I did, I was almost smote by the cycling gods. At least, they seemed to act like they were gods and were cycling in a way that almost smote me off the road. I'm sorry to say that around here at least, I feel there are too many dangerous riders on sportives and organisers are doing absolutely fark all to reduce the risk they pose to others: is it really enough to impose irrelevant clothing and bike requirements and give a short talk with safety topics muddled up with stuff like feed station locations on the start line when everyone's chatting with each other and chomping at the bit to get riding? No noticeable monitoring out on the course, no invitation to submit rider camera videos and no sanctioning of unsafe riders that I've ever heard about.



CAUTION!! DANGEROUS RIDERS!! PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!


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## Tin Pot (28 Sep 2017)

Ajax Bay said:


> Thank you, @Tin Pot . As ruses go that's of Agatha Christie complexity. Shiny. Shiny. (They produced them in gold colour too - but in true audax manner, the gold ones were dished out at random (perhaps @User can confirm).) I am pleased to have completed the ride - brought into sharp relief by my serious 'off' a month ago - glad that was after MP1K and LEL.



Hmm? What did I do now?


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## Ajax Bay (28 Sep 2017)

Tin Pot said:


> Hmm? What did I do now?


Sorry. Post #190 above edited (@Ti)


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## Donger (3 Oct 2017)

Well, first sportive now finally done. (Cotswold Autumn Classic). I enjoyed it. To be fair, my earlier worries about it being an "alpha-male-o-thon" were not realised. My main observations would be that:
(1) In most audaxes I've done, 75% of the riders seem to be silver-bearded 50-somethings like myself (or older), while 75% of the riders in the sportive seemed to be in their 20s, 30s or early 40s. It was therefore faster, and I was closer to the back of the field.
(2) I don't think I was imagining it when I say there seemed to be much less social interaction between riders than on the audaxes I've done. It wasn't unfriendly or elitist .... I just think most people were simply concentrating on getting round as fast as they could. Nothing wrong with that ..... just doesn't float my boat.
(3) The route was beautiful, and the route marking was excellent, with direction arrows very easy to follow. I did the 100km route without a satnav and with no need to refer to any map. In audaxes you have to be much more self-reliant.
(4) Copious amounts of food were provided at the mid point and at the end. More than in any audax I've done.
(5) *It cost £28*. Most audaxes are between £5 and £7 to enter. *We encountered several club rides heading in the opposite direction. Many of the riders seemed to me to have the smug look of people who were having exactly the same amount of fun as me, but for £28 less.*


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