# House boundaries



## Electric_Andy (29 May 2022)

Hi all. Some advice please.

My neighbour wants to install a new driveway. We have a piece of lawn outside which goes across both boundaries but obviously there's no way of knowing how to divide it. The neighbour has marked out where she thinks the boundary is, but it was about 2 feet into my land. The deeds show that the boundary line comes out at 90 degrees to the plain of the houses. I've done this by eye and am fairly happy that's fair.

However, she is still trying to Nick about 2 feet into my land, so I've said she needs to pay for someone to measure it out properly. Instead of doing that, she's now got some "other" deeds from the estate agent (I think) and she now says the boundary follows the lines of the current driveways, which curve in her favour.

What do I do now? I'm not going to squabble over 2 inches, but 2 feet is significant bearing in mind they're going to park their caravan there.

Who has authority over this, could I ask the land registry? 

Thanks


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## gbb (29 May 2022)

What do your deeds show?
Mine for instaance show clearly where my boundary line is located, half way into a rear public access path.
Tbf, that's easy to interpret because that narrow path is fenced either side and the boundary line is exactly central.


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## Hornchurch (29 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Hi all. Some advice please.
> 
> My neighbour wants to install a new driveway. We have a piece of lawn outside which goes across both boundaries but obviously there's no way of knowing how to divide it. The neighbour has marked out where she thinks the boundary is, but it was about 2 feet into my land. The deeds show that the boundary line comes out at 90 degrees to the plain of the houses. I've done this by eye and am fairly happy that's fair.
> 
> ...





I'd contact the local council & "badger" to speak to the Town Housing planning dept - (etc)

Explain that your neighbour is really "taking the pi$$" & about to blot-out natural light in your bedroom/living-room, etc.

And "in finale", tell them that she's "intentionally stealing some of my land, encroaching my boundary"

In other words, she's "Double Taking Da Pi$$" , big-time.

Also, threaten her with 'Legal Action' if she persists - (Even "if" you can't afford, it, as the "bluff" MIGHT just work ?)

I've had a pi$$-taking 'c-nt; of a neighbour, wipe tens of thousands off of MY property....

Pi$$-taker destroyed her rear-lawn & built a 'Granny-Annexe' for her "Not got two pots to pi$$-in" elderly parents.

Sell THEIR detached home, "move in with daughter/paramedic", £250k in the bank. "Live The Life of Riley"

(At MY expense, I should add - Now being overlooked by 100% into my bedroom, rendering MY property 'unsaleable'

Would YOU (or anyone reading this), want to "buy a home" where 2 x folks can peer directly into your bedroom ?


It now 100% "overlooks" my bedroom, therefore I have to keep my curtains shut - (Sex, Dressing, Privacy, etc)

Bang out of order, yet the "wayne kerrs" at our local-council were OBV'S "in-league" with her, overriding MY objections.

This country is pathetic like that - You got the right ethnic-background, you can "move mountains" (in complaint)

Whereas, "if" you've just a divorced middle-aged "indigenous" male, forget it - (wrong time, wrong ethnicity)

Losing TENS OF THOUSANDS off of a property that I owned, 10-yrs before "selfish" arrived, it's galling & hurtful

All because some self-appointed 'idiot' in a suit (who isn't there & never even visited), "over-ruled" my objections !

Good luck with yours, even tho' it's "trivia", by comparison

.


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## Sallar55 (29 May 2022)

Find a surveyor or architect to check your boundary line. Mother had a letter from a builder, wanted to rip up the hedge and was going to do it in a week. Took the deeds/building plans to the architect and they checked everything. Result was mother told to them that she would take them for every penny that they had. Hedge was inside our boundary ( Scottish legal system and land registry)


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## figbat (29 May 2022)

Ultimately, if it comes to it, the only person who can decide is a judge who will use all evidence from both sides.

You can get a copy of your neighbour’s deeds from Land Registry if you want.


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## Kingfisher101 (29 May 2022)

Hornchurch said:


> I'd contact the local council & "badger" to speak to the Town Housing planning dept - (etc)
> 
> Explain that your neighbour is really "taking the pi$$" & about to blot-out natural light in your bedroom/living-room, etc.
> 
> ...



You could put nets up or a film where you can see out but they cant see in? You dont have to have the curtains drawn fully all the time.


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## flake99please (29 May 2022)

I would invest in obtaining a copy of the deeds from your neighbours property. Show them the boundary line on this and your own deeds. Explain that you will only accept building works which do not encroach on your property and boundary. 

Offer to cover the cost of a surveyor if the surveyor agrees with your neighbours assumed boundary line. If the surveyor agrees with your assumption of boundary, then your neighbour pays their fees. 

If they fail to agree with the above option, advise them that you will use whatever legal measures are available to you prevent and/or remedy any work already undertaken beyond the boundary line. 

Good luck.


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## neil_merseyside (29 May 2022)

Stand up to them (you are likely right), or move, instigating sale before work starts you can claim no neighbour problems on the legal forms as at that point it is accurate, festering resentment afterwards I don't think actually has a tick box, but Google could find this thread. You need to back up your hunch? with about £0.25M if it gets nasty so do something now.


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

gbb said:


> What do your deeds show?
> Mine for instaance show clearly where my boundary line is located, half way into a rear public access path.
> Tbf, that's easy to interpret because that narrow path is fenced either side and the boundary line is exactly central.



The deeds clearly show that the boundary line extends from the front of our adjoined houses at 90 degrees. I'll try and put a picture up later. I'm in no doubt about the boundary, but she'd like to keep disagreeing until she can encroach 2 feet into my boundary.


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## Alex321 (30 May 2022)

Unless the "deeds" she has are from the Land Registry, they mean nothing.

You could always try putting up a fence or wall ON the boundary. It will then be up to her to prove you have encroached (which she won't be able to do if your deeds are genuine).


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## cougie uk (30 May 2022)

Hornchurch said:


> I'd contact the local council & "badger" to speak to the Town Housing planning dept - (etc)
> 
> Explain that your neighbour is really "taking the pi$$" & about to blot-out natural light in your bedroom/living-room, etc.
> 
> ...



Pretty sure there's millions of homes that are overlooked. Net curtains and you're good to go.


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## glasgowcyclist (30 May 2022)

Are property boundaries in England’s Land Registry not digitised yet? Scotland’s are. For a small fee I can obtain an accurate plan of any property and land boundary and it will show the exact legal extent.

Can you post a scan of the deed showing A) the plan of the property and B) the textual description of the boundary?


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

I'm not sure what's digitised and what's accessable to be honest. Here is a pic of the deeds (I'm number 7, she is to the left of me number 5 which isn't numbered). The orange line is where the neighbour thinks her drive can go, but as you can see the boundary lines go out 90 degrees from the plane of the house. The driveways on on her side actually goes about 3 feet into her other adjoining neighbours driveway....but that has obviously been overlooked and not challenged for years


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## T4tomo (30 May 2022)

flake99please said:


> I would invest in obtaining a copy of the deeds from your neighbours property. Show them the boundary line on this and your own deeds. Explain that you will only accept building works which do not encroach on your property and boundary.
> 
> Offer to cover the cost of a surveyor if the surveyor agrees with your neighbours assumed boundary line. If the surveyor agrees with your assumption of boundary, then your neighbour pays their fees.
> 
> ...



good advice, also check their deeds to see if there is any restrictive covenant to prevent them parking a caravan on the drive, that would be a bonus!!


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## T4tomo (30 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I'm not sure what's digitised and what's accessable to be honest. Here is a pic of the deeds (I'm number 7, she is to the left of me number 5 which isn't numbered). The orange line is where the neighbour thinks her drive can go, but as you can see the boundary lines go out 90 degrees from the plane of the house. The driveways on on her side actually goes about 3 feet into her other adjoining neighbours driveway....but that has obviously been overlooked and not challenged for years



That's pretty clear cut, I'd be getting a steel post concreted in here sharpish!


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

T4tomo said:


> That's pretty clear cut, I'd be getting a steel post concreted in here sharpish!



That's what I thought, it's obvious. But she has now texted me to say she has got hold of some other deeds which follow her driveway e.g. her drivway that's not in line with the boundariesd on the deeds.  I haven't seen her yet, but she has at least cancelled the work until we agree on where she can come up to


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## glasgowcyclist (30 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I'm not sure what's digitised and what's accessable to be honest. Here is a pic of the deeds (I'm number 7, she is to the left of me number 5 which isn't numbered). The orange line is where the neighbour thinks her drive can go, but as you can see the boundary lines go out 90 degrees from the plane of the house. The driveways on on her side actually goes about 3 feet into her other adjoining neighbours driveway....but that has obviously been overlooked and not challenged for years
> View attachment 646857



On its own that may not be enough. Do you have a deed with the property’s bounding description?

It certainly appears that your neighbour is taking more than she is entitled to and you’ll need the bounding description to tie in with the plan to be sure.


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> On its own that may not be enough. Do you have a deed with the property’s bounding description?
> 
> It certainly appears that your neighbour is taking more than she is entitled to and you’ll need the bounding description to tie in with the plan to be sure.



ok thanks, it's actually my Dad who owns the house so I'll have to ask him if he has anything else.


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## glasgowcyclist (30 May 2022)

Also check how long No 5 has been using her assumed extent (the part that encroaches onto No 7 in particular). I think England still works under the adverse possession principle where a person can assume possession of a piece of land if they’ve occupied it, unchallenged by the true occupier, for 10 years.

The English land register should be able to help but you may incur fees.

In the interim, I’d be inclined to put up some small mark of delineation along that boundary, such as a very low picket fence. Shouldn't cost much in materials or time and will act as a mark of intent as well as being a good visual aid for anyone being asked to consider the dispute.

I note that the plan shows the boundary as being slightly offset from the extended centre line of the two properties, in favour of the neighbour. This may be accurate or not, which is why you’ll need the bounding description to be sure.


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## Hornchurch (30 May 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Pretty sure there's millions of homes that are overlooked. Net curtains and you're good to go.





Kingfisher101 said:


> You could put nets up or a film where you can see out but they cant see in? You dont have to have the curtains drawn fully all the time.




Cheers Guys,

*What causes the main problems, are THREE-FOLD

1, * She (the 'oppressor') since the Granny-Annexe, is now just "handshake" distance away, literally (so nets won't hide much, because....
Her piss-pot 'money-saving' annexe was built in 2013 - I wuz already there at least 10-yrs earlier, long before 'her' arrival.

*2, * We have TWO 'Ford Transit sized FULL picture-windows - They were there since property was built, in 1973 - Original fitment

*3,* Herein lies the biggest "issue" -

*"If" we attempt to sell, NO buyer* (worth their salt), ever* wants to buy a property so 'heavily' & closely overlooked*

Basically, I'm "crocked" - All because some lazy fiddle-stain council-planners would NOT listen to my objections, or, visit property seen below

MOD NOTE - Naked photo and references to same removed.



.


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## fossyant (30 May 2022)

Ohh she's taking the wee wee, why would just your property not have a perpendicular boundary line like the rest. Jog on I'd say. Pretty clear cut.


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## icowden (30 May 2022)

Hornchurch said:


> Basically, I'm "crocked" - All because some lazy fiddle-stain council-planners would NOT listen to my objections, or, visit property seen below


Whilst I feel for you, you should be able to look up the planning rules used by your council. If the property does not conform to those rules you should have grounds for an appeal.

For example in Wrexham:



> To achieve this, minimum separation distances should be maintained between houses, and in particular, between habitable rooms. Habitable rooms include living rooms, bedrooms, studies and kitchens. They do not include halls, stair landings, passageways and utility rooms. Where two habitable rooms face each other such that direct overlooking is physically possible, the windows should be 22 metres apart. Where a window in a habitable room faces a blank wall, the height of which exceeds the top of that window, there should be a distance measuring a minimum of 13 metres between them. In the case of a kitchen window, these standards may be relaxed provided suitable screening is in place. These standards apply on flat ground.


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

fossyant said:


> Ohh she's taking the wee wee, why would just your property not have a perpendicular boundary line like the rest. Jog on I'd say. Pretty clear cut.



That's basically what I'm saying, but she keeps arguing the toss...pretending to be all nice about it and "oh sorry I don't know anything about this"..but when confronted with the deeds, she still keeps saying her line is 90 degrees when it clearly isn't. I've pointed out that if she doesn't want me to object then she needs to hire someone to come and measure it properly, which she doesn't want to do. I might just have to get my Dad to come down and we'll take a line out from the outside edges of each house, and measure the distance so that we can get the perpendicular boundary line. it's all a pain in the butt, I'm going to have to look at a caravan anyway which she is free to put there, but I don't want it any closer than it needs to be, especially if it comes onto my (Dad's) land.


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## figbat (30 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> I might just have to get my Dad to come down and we'll take a line out from the outside edges of each house, and measure the distance so that we can get the perpendicular boundary line.



This would assume that each property is identical width. If I were you I'd start with an agreed centreline of the house and measure left and right along each house the same distance to a fixed point on each, then do the triangulation to a projected boundary line (you may then also confirm that the houses are equal width). Of course this mean getting access to both houses. If you want to do it purely from your own property then get Pythagoras on the case - a 3:4:5 triangle is the easiest to work with although any measures will work with a little maths.

It is possible - maybe likely - that the layout of the road and houses have formed an optical illusion of what perpendicular looks like vs what it really is.


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## Phaeton (30 May 2022)

figbat said:


> You can get a copy of your neighbour’s deeds from Land Registry if you want.





Alex321 said:


> Unless the "deeds" she has are from the Land Registry, they mean nothing.





glasgowcyclist said:


> Are property boundaries in England’s Land Registry not digitised yet?


To all above, Not all property is on the Land Registry, although this looks like a fairly new build so will be, any property whose sale was before 2006 (I think) is not likely to be on there.


T4tomo said:


> good advice, also check their deeds to see if there is any restrictive covenant to prevent them parking a caravan on the drive, that would be a bonus!!


This is a good one, the covenants on our property are quite rigid, about height to fences, hedges, commercial vehicles, caravans, campers & apparently you can operate a brothel as long as you do not serve alcoholic drinks.


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## fossyant (30 May 2022)

A long piece of timber should be more than enough to show the correct angle of the boundary line.


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## DCLane (30 May 2022)

@Electric_Andy - it looks like they're new enough to be on the electronic register and all the houses have a perpendicular boundary. She's basically hoping you won't object as it seems the occupier of no. 3 hasn't.

Unless she wants to change the official boundary by paying your Dad for the land officially then she's no chance. Any issues contact your local planning stating they've already taken space from no. 3 and are now trying with yours  . But personally I'd be marking it out, putting a couple of posts in just inside your side of the boundary, then seeing what happens.

Note that we're soon to be extending our driveway side-wards and removing a small piece of lawn. I want to be very careful that it's on the exact line with my neighbours and we'll double check it as the lawn bit's used by both properties.


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## Alex321 (30 May 2022)

Phaeton said:


> To all above, Not all property is on the Land Registry, although this looks like a fairly new build so will be, any property whose sale was before 2006 (I think) is not likely to be on there.


Actually 1990 when registration of land on any sale or transfer taking place became compulsory.

Anything built or sold since then *should* be on it. 

Anything prior to that still may be, compulsory registration was available to counties or parts of counties from 1925 onwards, though I'm not sure how many counties introduced it. I know in 1964, according to an entry in Hansard, it was 5 counties, and 14 county Boroughs. Which isn't all that many.


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## Kingfisher101 (30 May 2022)

Its a pain when neighbours do this sort of thing.I had problems with my NDN's daughter parking their car on my drive it really angered me as I struggled to get my bike down my own drive.I wouldn't be getting into any arguments with her, I'd just tell her no way.
Just concrete in your own posts on your side of the correct boundary line problem solved. Shes a chancer trying it on obviously.People play silly games like this and pretend to be thick to steal and get one over on you.


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

DCLane said:


> personally I'd be marking it out, putting a couple of posts in just inside your side of the boundary



Thank you. Yes there is currently a string line where I am happy for the boundary to be. It's about 3 inches into my side but that's ok as a compromise. @figbat you are correct, the line of the pavement is misleading becasue the houses are not on the same plane, hence her originally thinking that her side of the boundary at the pavement end was in line with my front door! She's playing dumb but she absolutely knows what she wants


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## oldwheels (30 May 2022)

You really need a surveyor who specialises in this sort of thing.
Boundaries are a bit of a minefield as I found out when walking all the boundaries of a business with a variety of plots. In many cases the apparent boundary like a wire fence or stone wall was not in the right place and over the years bits had been "appropriated " by adjoining land owners.


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

Kingfisher101 said:


> Its a pain when neighbours do this sort of thing.I had problems with my NDN's daughter parking their car on my drive it really angered me as I struggled to get my bike down my own drive.I wouldn't be getting into any arguments with her, I'd just tell her no way.
> Just concrete in your own posts on your side of the correct boundary line problem solved. Shes a chancer trying it on obviously.People play silly games like this and pretend to be thick to steal and get one over on you.



Yes that's it, I don't want any rows and we are so far quite good neighbours, but I'm not going to give her free land either. Next thing she'll be bringing some other paperwork over that apprently says her driveway is the boudary. Be interesting to see what that is


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## Electric_Andy (30 May 2022)

oldwheels said:


> You really need a surveyor


Yes - now here's the question - I feel that she is responsible for hiring these services? I've basically said that if she doesn't believe me then she needs to get someone in to mark it out properly. But she won't want to pay for that. My point is, if she knows she is right then there's nothing I can do about a driveway on her land. I think she's afraid to get it done properly in case they agree with my reckoning


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## oldwheels (30 May 2022)

Electric_Andy said:


> Yes - now here's the question - I feel that she is responsible for hiring these services? I've basically said that if she doesn't believe me then she needs to get someone in to mark it out properly. But she won't want to pay for that. My point is, if she knows she is right then there's nothing I can do about a driveway on her land. I think she's afraid to get it done properly in case they agree with my reckoning



You could offer to pay if she is correct but she pays if she is wrong. Need to get that in writing tho" but could be hard to enforce payment.


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## Phaeton (30 May 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Actually 1990 when registration of land on any sale or transfer taking place became compulsory.
> 
> Anything built or sold since then *should* be on it.
> 
> Anything prior to that still may be, compulsory registration was available to counties or parts of counties from 1925 onwards, though I'm not sure how many counties introduced it. I know in 1964, according to an entry in Hansard, it was 5 counties, and 14 county Boroughs. Which isn't all that many.



We bought our house in 1984 & it's not on the land register, I know this as I'm currently drawing up our wills & POE, it has to be registered to able to be included on the POE.


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## glasgowcyclist (30 May 2022)

oldwheels said:


> You could offer to pay if she is correct but she pays if she is wrong. Need to get that in writing tho" but could be hard to enforce payment.



I disagree. 

She’s the one planning work that may affect someone else’s boundary so it’s entirely her responsibility to show she has the right to do as planned. This is why we have a central land register. If her plans don’t comply with the recorded boundaries then she can’t proceed.

Taking the financial hit if her hunch turns out to be correct would be a daft thing to agree to.


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## T4tomo (30 May 2022)

oldwheels said:


> You could offer to pay if she is correct but she pays if she is wrong. Need to get that in writing tho" but could be hard to enforce payment.



No surveyor in a potential dispute situation is going to start work with being paid first!!

Boundaries are slighty odd in front of the 4 houses on my little plot, as there is more space to side of number 1 than number 4, so our drives are slightly offset with house boundaries, so we all have equal sized drives. BUT they are marked with metal studs set into the paving / change of surface in places, so its quite clear what is where


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## oldwheels (30 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I disagree.
> 
> She’s the one planning work that may affect someone else’s boundary so it’s entirely her responsibility to show she has the right to do as planned. This is why we have a central land register. If her plans don’t comply with the recorded boundaries then she can’t proceed.
> 
> Taking the financial hit if her hunch turns out to be correct would be a daft thing to agree to.



It should be easy enough at least in Scotland to check whether she is correct or not by looking at the deeds and doing some measurements. Assuming she is not correct how is that going to be enforced as the whole thing could blow up into a financial nightmare?
When we sold garments clearly marked "hand wash only" and they came back with a complaint the advice we got from a manufacturer was to say we would send them off to an independent lab and if they had not been hand washed then the complainant paid the cost. Worked on the few occasions this happened when the customer was plainly at fault which sparked my suggestion to the OP.


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## Speicher (31 May 2022)

Has she thought about a "dropped kerb" to get a caravan on the drive?


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## gbb (31 May 2022)

glasgowcyclist said:


> On its own that may not be enough. Do you have a deed with the property’s bounding description?
> 
> It certainly appears that your neighbour is taking more than she is entitled to and you’ll need the bounding description to tie in with the plan to be sure.



I agree, although she does indeed seem to be taking the pith.
My deeds show a red line (IIRC) s the boundary, they do seem more property specific.


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## fossyant (31 May 2022)

When we moved in, we put a 'soil boarder' in between us and the neighbour, and round the front of the garden (we like gardening). We made sure the boarder was on our side, so no encroachment into her 'lawn'. She still didn't like it, nor did she like us putting a fence up at the rear of the property, as 'she' wanted rights to access our back garden to get at hers (when the deeds clearly stated there were no access rights).

Some people will push and push.


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## Electric_Andy (31 May 2022)

Speicher said:


> Has she thought about a "dropped kerb" to get a caravan on the drive?



they have a dropped kerb, which is what I'd call standard, like we all have, i.e. 1.5 car widths. If they move their other cars then they can reverse a caravan onto where they want to store it. I'm considering putting up a fence, not to be petty but it's a loose pebble drive and I fear all the stones with end up on my front lawn. Also it might be nicer to look at a fence rather than a caravan. I'll have to think about it and see how it goes; I also don't want to make it harder for them to get the caravan in and out by making a physical boundary, it would just be to keep the stones on their side if it comes to that


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## Electric_Andy (31 May 2022)

fossyant said:


> When we moved in, we put a 'soil boarder' in between us and the neighbour, and round the front of the garden (we like gardening). We made sure the boarder was on our side, so no encroachment into her 'lawn'. She still didn't like it, nor did she like us putting a fence up at the rear of the property, as 'she' wanted rights to access our back garden to get at hers (when the deeds clearly stated there were no access rights).
> 
> Some people will push and push.



yes that sounds like a better plan than a fence. I'd potentially just want something to keep the stones from being barged onto my lawn by car tyres. A soil border sounds better than a fence and I'd gladly lose the space it would take up, as I don't use the front lawn for anything. I'm very keen to retain a good relationship with them, as they are good neighbours generally, but time will tell!


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## newts (31 May 2022)

I think your neighbour is taking severe liberties by encroaching on your boundary. They should have thought about access before buying the caravan? Moving the boundary as indicated on you drawing will reduce your property value. It is upto the neighbour to prove where the boundary is before starting any work . The party wall act 1996 should be your guidance. An agreement based on this signed by both parties should be in place before any work commences.


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## PeteXXX (31 May 2022)

Here's some help from Citizens Advice 
Most has been said already but there's some links that might be useful.


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## Kingfisher101 (1 Jun 2022)

I think if she starts building or marking the ground out etc you will just have to bite the bullet and pay for a solicitor.


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## vickster (1 Jun 2022)

Do you have any sort of legal cover on your home insurance or legal assistance scheme provided by your employer (or a Union) that you could draw upon?


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