# Speed Limits and Cyclists.



## gaz (6 Aug 2009)

We all know that some cyclists say that speed limits don't apply to cyclists..

I'm looking for a creditable source that states what the situation is with cyclists and speed limits.

I've had a look in the highway code, and various other places, and i can't find a definative answer that says it as it is.


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## addictfreak (6 Aug 2009)

Dont have the written evidence, but I would imagine the law applies to all road users.


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## addictfreak (6 Aug 2009)

Just found this:

*CYCLING FURIOUSLY?
*It's an in-joke in cycling that cyclists can't be booked for speeding but can be fined for "pedalling furiously." Many cyclists list being cited for "cycling furiously" as one of their life ambitions. Professor David S. Wall, Head of the University of Leeds Law School, a professor of criminal justice lists his hobby as: Cycling (Furiously)
However, these legal eagles say they have been unable to find a a reference to such a cycling offence in Blackstone's Criminal Practice or in Halsbury's Laws of England.
Which is odd, as Christopher McKenzie, an Australian barrister, pointed Bikeforall to these cases: _Taylor v. Goodwin (1879) 4 QBD 228_, a case where the Queen's Bench Division held, on appeal, that a cyclist was appropriately convicted by a magistrate for furious riding of a bicycle. The dicta of Justice Melor in the case has been cited and followed in a number of cases since: see, for example, _Smith v. Kynnersley [1903] 1 KB 788_ (cyclist not liable to pay bridge toll) and _Corkery v. Carpenter [1951] I KB 102_ (cyclist liable for offence where cycling drunk). 

Although a legal eagle searching Blackstones will not find a specific offence of "furious cycling", cyclists can nonetheless be convicted for "wanton and furious driving". 
The wording of S35 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 (c. 58), s. 1(2)) is as follows: “35. Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years.” 

http://www.bikeforall.net/content/cycling_and_the_law.php


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## Arch (6 Aug 2009)

As I understand it (so this isn't definitive, sorry) you can't be done for speeding at a specific limit, since don't necessarily, by law, have fitted a way of knowing your speed. But you can be done for riding dangerously or inconsiderately, and speed could play a part in that - even well under any road limit - doing 15-20mph on a crowded shared path for example.

Morally, I think we have as much responsibility to watch our speed as a motorist does, esp since we tend to have less controlled braking (and indeed are more likely to come off badly in any crash than a driver). I very rarely reach 20mph (probably the only limit I could break), it's true, but if I did routinely, I don't think it would be a suitable speed to use in any built up area.


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## Downward (6 Aug 2009)

*On the subject of speed limits, is it possible to get flashed by a traffic speed camera on a bike or am I wasting my time?* 

As regards speeding, the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1984, which set out the speed limits for particular vehicles on particular classes of roads, apply only to motor vehicles and therefore specifically exclude pedal cyclists. I do not know if a traffic speed camera could flash a cyclist. However, I am aware of a comment made by a Sergeant in the Camera Enforcement Unit of West Midlands Police published in the Daily Mail April 1st 2000, where he says that ‘in theory’ any vehicle breaking the speed limit could activate a camera, but that he was not aware of any cyclists being caught speeding by camera. In any event there would clearly be a problem in identifying the speeding cyclist.


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## Downward (6 Aug 2009)

Downward said:


> *On the subject of speed limits, is it possible to get flashed by a traffic speed camera on a bike or am I wasting my time?*
> 
> As regards speeding, the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1984, which set out the speed limits for particular vehicles on particular classes of roads, apply only to motor vehicles and therefore specifically exclude pedal cyclists. I do not know if a traffic speed camera could flash a cyclist. However, I am aware of a comment made by a Sergeant in the Camera Enforcement Unit of West Midlands Police published in the Daily Mail April 1st 2000, where he says that ‘in theory’ any vehicle breaking the speed limit could activate a camera, but that he was not aware of any cyclists being caught speeding by camera. In any event there would clearly be a problem in identifying the speeding cyclist.



So i guess the only other way you could be caught is by a following police car who would have to record your speed over a certain distance.


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## gaz (6 Aug 2009)

i've gone through camears at over 36mph, at that speed it's hard to look round and see if it's flashing!

The way the speed camera works is by using radar. so anything going through it at over the threashold will set it off.


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## Downward (6 Aug 2009)

It may be possible but identifiying you would prove difficult


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## aJohnson (6 Aug 2009)

Downward said:


> It may be possible but identifiying you would prove difficult



Well... if you're riding a pink bike...

I mean how many people own a pink bike...


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## marinyork (6 Aug 2009)

gaz said:


> We all know that some cyclists say that speed limits don't apply to cyclists..
> 
> I'm looking for a creditable source that states what the situation is with cyclists and speed limits.
> 
> I've had a look in the highway code, and various other places, and i can't find a definative answer that says it as it is.



The HC has a definitive answer when it comes to the laws, you obey all laws (that apply to you). That is what adds confusion, plus a bit of bad wording sometimes.

This is why people get confused as they assume all bits apply to everyone without a hierarchy. A good example is people who refuse to believe no motor vehicles signs don't include bicycles. People argue cyclists who are going past them are breaking the law. They would be if they applied to them.


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## beanzontoast (6 Aug 2009)

I agree with Arch about the moral obligation. 

I don't understand why cyclists wonder about speed limits - unless they're planning to exceed them? Surely if the limit is, say, 30mph what that means (in common sense terms) is that the maximum safe speed for *any *road user is 30mph -and in practice, it will be less due to road conditions, weather, traffic, peds etc. Exceeding a speed limit on a bike is not safer than doing it in a car IMO.

If a cyclist had an accident and was found to have been exceeding the speed limit, surely this would count against them?


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## gaz (6 Aug 2009)

I've checked the road traffice act of 1984 section 6 from points 81 to 89. and all laws apply only to a motor veichel.

and a bicycle doesn't fall under motor veichel.


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## scaryant (6 Aug 2009)

There was a thing on the BBC News one morning about cyclists being caught on an esplanade somewhere in the UK by a cop with a speed gun.

Here you go.

Though admittedly, there is nothing in the article that says they were/could be fined (for speeding) but the implication is they could I suppose - but presumably not by police under the Highway Code but maybe under a council by-law. Here's an earlier article from 2004 sighting the same problem in the same area (obviously the warnings aint working) that mentions "fines".


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## wafflycat (6 Aug 2009)

In general, speed limits do NOT apply to pedal cycles. There are a few places where they do - but specific byelaws are brought in for that purpose. The HC is quite clear where the word(s) MUST or MUST NOT it refers to a law and you have to look at the detail of the specific law to see if it refers to pedal cycles. As regards speed limits referred to in the HC, it does give a clue, as s.124 has a handy table to go with it, to list speed limtis for different types of vehicle.. pedal cycles are not listed.

Saying that, there are specific cycling offences where if plod feels you are going too fast, you can have your collar felt.

But even though the speed limits don't apply to pedal cycles, you ahve to ask yourself whether it's particularly clever to exceed them (if you are able to do so), as they do reflect what is thought to be the maximum speed for that stretch of road in good conditions...


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## PaulSB (6 Aug 2009)

Downward said:


> In any event there would clearly be a problem in identifying the speeding cyclist.



It's also a problem to identify a working speed camera!! Could get a touch expensive testing them out in the car.

Locally we have a number of those signs that tell you your speed and then show a happy or unhappy smiley. I often register with those but haven't managed anyhting above 22 mph yet - none of them are located in spots where I could reach 30mph. I'd suggest these are your best bet for finding out what the possibilities are.


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## scaryant (6 Aug 2009)

I'd like to see someone reach 30 mph in London traffic... as if.


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## lordjenks (6 Aug 2009)

in regards to the type of speed cameras that show your speed or if in a 30mph zone with flash 30mph when going over 32-33 or whtever it is, i hve been 'flashed' by one of those so they do work and register bikes


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## Dan B (6 Aug 2009)

Downward said:


> As regards speeding, the provisions of the Road Traffic Act 1984, which set out the speed limits for particular vehicles on particular classes of roads, apply only to motor vehicles and therefore specifically exclude pedal cyclists.


Is the right answer (excepting in some areas such as Royal Parks which have specific legislation governing them)


Downward said:


> I do not know if a traffic speed camera could flash a cyclist.


The camera on the FNRttC downhill on the way into Brighton sometimes will get a fix on two cyclists travelling side by side, but doesn't usually react to anything smaller. Trigger point ~38mph, I think


Downward said:


> However, I am aware of a comment made by a Sergeant in the Camera Enforcement Unit of West Midlands Police published in the Daily Mail April 1st 2000, where he says that ‘in theory’ any vehicle breaking the speed limit could activate a camera, but that he was not aware of any cyclists being caught speeding by camera. In any event there would clearly be a problem in identifying the speeding cyclist.


A suggestion was made on one of these events that a Data Protection Act request from the cyclist to the camera operator ought to be able to elicit the footage. Don't know if that's true though


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## buddha (6 Aug 2009)

There's a speed indicator sign (Selsdon, sarf London) that always tells me to SLOW DOWN when I pass going down hill (no other traffic). Strange thing is that I can't be doing 30 as I'm usually on both brakes at that point as there's a bend ahead. What's even more strange is that I was 'told' to SLOW DOWN when going up hill yesterday. 

Either I'm super human or the darned things need calibrating.


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## Hacienda71 (6 Aug 2009)

I got told of for breaking the speed limit on a camp site in the seventies on my Raleigh Beaver at the age of eight. The speed limit was only 10 mph  lol


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## purplepolly (6 Aug 2009)

buddha said:


> There's a speed indicator sign (Selsdon, sarf London) that always tells me to SLOW DOWN when I pass going down hill (no other traffic). Strange thing is that I can't be doing 30 as I'm usually on both brakes at that point as there's a bend ahead. What's even more strange is that I was 'told' to SLOW DOWN when going up hill yesterday.
> 
> Either I'm super human or the darned things need calibrating.



I've heard of hand held spped guns registering exactly double the cyclists actual speed - something to do with the spokes? Possibly this is what happened.


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## Downward (6 Aug 2009)

How many cyclists can sustain a speed well above the speed limit anyway unless your a Pro ?


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## purplepolly (6 Aug 2009)

Downward said:


> How many cyclists can sustain a speed well above the speed limit anyway unless your a Pro ?



Me! I did today. It was a narrow shopping street with no shoppers around so put my head down and pushed it to a whole 20% above the speed limit for motorised vehicles. 

It was actually my first time above the speed limit on a bike. I must ride in 10mph zones more often.


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## Kestevan (6 Aug 2009)

I go past a couple ofed cameras on my way into work. They're on a fairly steep downhill 50mph dual carriageway..

I've never managed to get them to go off, despite my best efforts 

One morning though, I'd just pulled in at the round about at the bottom of the hill when a cop car pulled up next to me and plod leaned out and said "Do you realise you were doing 54 mph down there? - Bloody barmy". He was smiling tho...


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## Garz (6 Aug 2009)

I thought you could get points/fine as you are technically _speeding_. Anyway my point would be then, as we now have plods on cycles in our communities, how long will it be till one of them gets caught up in this grey area?


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## Dan B (6 Aug 2009)

Garz said:


> I thought you could get points/fine as you are technically _speeding_.


No


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## gaz (6 Aug 2009)

Garz said:


> I thought you could get points/fine as you are technically _speeding_. Anyway my point would be then, as we now have plods on cycles in our communities, how long will it be till one of them gets caught up in this grey area?



You can't get points because you don't have a license for them to go on.

You also don't have to have a calibrated speedometer (who has a calibrated one at that anyway) so you can always plea that your computer is only to track your miles and time rather than for speed wise as it is probably wrong.

The police on bikes in london are on front suspension bikes with nobly tires and panniers, they aren't going to be catching me or breaking any 30mph speed limits without being out of breath.


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## Garz (6 Aug 2009)

gaz said:


> You can't get points because you don't have a license for them to go on.
> 
> You also don't have to have a calibrated speedometer (who has a calibrated one at that anyway) so you can always plea that your computer is only to track your miles and time rather than for speed wise as it is probably wrong.
> 
> The police on bikes in london are on front suspension bikes with nobly tires and panniers, they aren't going to be catching me or breaking any 30mph speed limits without being out of breath.



I have a valid UK driving licence, it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to put them on this.

What speedometer, I never mentioned that? (referring to speedtrap or static gatso type device)

I live near manchester and there are some hills, easy enough to break speed limits if you exerted yourself. Knobbly or mtb bikes they are still capable and we all dont live in the capital.


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## HLaB (6 Aug 2009)

buddha said:


> There's a speed indicator sign (Selsdon, sarf London) that always tells me to SLOW DOWN when I pass going down hill (no other traffic). Strange thing is that I can't be doing 30 as I'm usually on both brakes at that point as there's a bend ahead. What's even more strange is that I was 'told' to SLOW DOWN when going up hill yesterday.
> 
> Either I'm super human or the darned things need calibrating.


There's speed indicator signs cropped up all over Fife (with a digital speed read out), they are usually just about the crest of a hill just entering a village (either slightly before or after the crest). These one seem very accurate the most I've registered though is 22mph ; could they not move them to the bottom of the hill


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## marinyork (7 Aug 2009)

Garz said:


> I have a valid UK driving licence, it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to put them on this.
> 
> I live near manchester and there are some hills, easy enough to break speed limits if you exerted yourself. Knobbly or mtb bikes they are still capable and we all dont live in the capital.



If you went whizzing around on a minimoto or electric scooter you could get points put on it, it would still be quite rare. You can't get points on you licence for what you describe though, you can get it for what I've said and others as it's on the list of endorsable offences. I think the only way to do it on a bicycle/ped is to get it via endorsements for special roads.


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## Garz (7 Aug 2009)

Interestingly Im going to a wedding on saturday and the groom is a friend who happens to be a policeman. I shall try remember to mention this to him but I bet he will have some way of being able to penalise this kind of incident.

It is interesting then that although we can speed on cycles over the limit, your saying that you haven't committed an offence in respect to being punished somehow as there is no ruling specific to cyclists?


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## marinyork (7 Aug 2009)

Garz said:


> Interestingly Im going to a wedding on saturday and the groom is a friend who happens to be a policeman. I shall try remember to mention this to him but I bet he will have some way of being able to penalise this kind of incident.
> 
> It is interesting then that although we can speed on cycles over the limit, your saying that you haven't committed an offence in respect to being punished somehow as there is no ruling specific to cyclists?



This has been covered, under the furious cycling. The HC very explicity states about the major cycling offences under its HC and the Law appendix. There are various things that can get a fine, that is the punishment. Also being a policemen doesn't necessarily mean they are up on cycling law, there have been bizarre examples of all sorts of things like teenage kids being breathalised on a bike.

If you look up the list of endorsements, it is lengthy, the only one applying to a driving licence and cycling/ped is what I outlined wrt special roads legislation.


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## Garz (7 Aug 2009)

Fine, so unless your being dangerous or in a specific zone like a 20 by a school then mr plod cant penalise you?


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## marinyork (7 Aug 2009)

They can fine you. If you look at your law or HC you'll see that the fines for serious cycling offences can be very large.

I'm not sure what you are suggesting about 20 zones, I doubt they'd be that bothered, few motorists stick to the speed limit in 20 zones. It would likely be a waste of resources. 

A dangerous cycling/careless/reckless charge is normally brought against a fatality such as cycling down a hill at 20mph on a pavement and killing someone or a rather more controversial one that might or might not have been pavement related and polishing off a drunken ped.


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## wafflycat (7 Aug 2009)

Garz said:


> I have a valid UK driving licence, it wouldn't surprise me if they wanted to put them on this.



And they'd be wrong. IIRC this was tried recently but then chucked out. Rightly so. 

Why should your driving licence be penalised for any cycling offence? If you shoplift do you expect to have points put on your driving licence? Same logic. 

The law pertaining to speed limits applies to *motor* vehicles NOT pedal cycles. For a speed limit to apply to a pedal cyclist, a specific byelaw is required for the particular stretch of highway the limit applies to (such as Royal Parks).


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## willhub (7 Aug 2009)

I do 20mph in a 20mph speed limit and I get drivers overtaking me, I do 30mph in a 30mph speed limit, and I get drivers flying past me???? Don't they like being behind a cyclist following the speed limit?

Sometimes I am doing 24-26mph where it is a 30mph speed limit and even when safe to overtake cars just sit behind me, are most car speedos incorectly calibrated so when I am doing 24-26 it's showing around 30mph on there speedos?


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## Dan B (7 Aug 2009)

gaz said:


> You also don't have to have a calibrated speedometer (who has a calibrated one at that anyway) so you can always plea that your computer is only to track your miles and time rather than for speed wise as it is probably wrong.


And, er, so what? Speed limits apply to motor vehicles irrespective of whether they have (or are required to have) speedometers.

If I'm pulled over for driving at over the alcohol limit, I don't expect that pleading I don't own a breathalyser is going to get me off.


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## jimboalee (7 Aug 2009)

What's the worst that can happen?

'ASBO'? 
Up before the Beak for 'Dangerous use of a pedal cycle'?

Don't worry about it.


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## gaz (7 Aug 2009)

coruskate said:


> And, er, so what? Speed limits apply to motor vehicles irrespective of whether they have (or are required to have) speedometers.
> 
> If I'm pulled over for driving at over the alcohol limit, I don't expect that pleading I don't own a breathalyser is going to get me off.



First off a bicycle isn't a motor vehicle. and i was stating that there is no law that states that bicycles have to have a speedometer. 
And even if you have one fitted, it doesn't have to be calibrated, in which case the speed that is shown could well be wrong by a big margin. such as your speedometer may say 25mph when your actually doing 32mph. nothing you can do about that because the supplier and yourself have no responsibility to calibrate it.

Where as in your car, the speedometer has to be correct to a certain degree, as all are slowed down to say 30mph when your actually doing about 27-28mph.

There fore, if a coppa tries to say you were speeding, you can easily say that there is no law that inforces the use of a calibrated speedomoter so i had no idea how fast i was going.


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## Dan B (7 Aug 2009)

gaz said:


> There fore, if a coppa tries to say you were speeding, you can easily say that there is no law that inforces the use of a calibrated speedomoter so i had no idea how fast i was going.


You can do, but it's not going to help.


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## marinyork (7 Aug 2009)

Anyway in my experience you're most likely to get a telling off from plod in a contraflow cycle lane. I've been done so about 6 times now.

Mobility scooters have to have calibrated speed limiters, it's not going to get you told off any/more less as it has a crude speedometer.


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## Davidc (9 Aug 2009)

marinyork said:


> Anyway in my experience you're most likely to get a telling off from plod in a contraflow cycle lane. I've been done so about 6 times now.
> 
> Mobility scooters have to have calibrated speed limiters, it's not going to get you told off any/more less as it has a crude speedometer.



I've had that too, and also a load of verbal abuse from motons who can't grasp the concept of contraflow lanes.


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