# Anyone know this idiot?



## TheJDog (5 Jul 2017)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHvIhC4rcXA


I can't believe this guy thinks he's in the right.

I searched but didn't see if anyone else had already posted it.


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## Drago (5 Jul 2017)

Oooh thats cringeworthy. Why are cyclists using a left turn only lane as a means of overtaking on the inside? That truck so very nearly killed him, all because he used the lane inappropriately.

Also, that first cyclist is a plum. Flings himself up the inside of a car just as the road narrows, doesn't look left or right the entire time he's in view.

Wannabe organ doners the lot of them.


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## numbnuts (5 Jul 2017)

I take it all of the cyclists were in the wrong lane then


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## Drago (5 Jul 2017)

From what I could see, yes. Instead of turning left they tried to use it as an opportunity to overtake the waiting traffic, deliberately keep themselves in the teucks blind spot, and it bit one of them on the arriss. Dreadful roadcraft from all of them.

The video should be renamed "idiot cyclist with no observation skills, poor lane disciple, and a rampant death wish attempts to top himself under a lorry"

I'll be as popular as a fart in a space suit for saying it, bit the lorry driver find nothing wrong.


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## Markymark (5 Jul 2017)

No way I'd try and race a lorry from the wrong lane.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (5 Jul 2017)

What a bunch of idiots. The very definition of 'All the gear, no idea'. '


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## Welsh wheels (5 Jul 2017)

Unfortunate incident all round, but in all honesty those cyclists should definitely have been more aware and given the lorry a lot more room.


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## I like Skol (5 Jul 2017)

Maybe the question should be 'would you admit to knowing that idiot?'

He is lucky to be alive and unless he learned a lesson that day it is only a matter of time. At least the lady that was riding beside him had the good sense to drop back......


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## Disabledcyclist40 (5 Jul 2017)

If your going to filter, you should always stop where the driver has a visual on you, not in the blidnspot 

The lorry knew they were there and wanted to prove he was right 

The cyclists were all in the wrong lane 

But who's at fault doesn't matter, if you know a lorry will kill you you don't stop in the blidnspot, either hold back or filter in front of him. So he can see you, chose life, not to have to fight for life.


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## Timtrain (5 Jul 2017)

Fail to understand how the lorry driver can be in the wrong. All the cyclists are to all intense and purpose are turning left. The lorry hasn't deviated from its route, and as the driver states , he was leaning forward to see them, and quite rightly assumed they were turning left, they shouldn't of chanced there arm by undercutting him


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (5 Jul 2017)

numbnuts said:


> I take it all of the cyclists were in the wrong lane then



Looks like it to me, but I suppose if one of them is getting some hits on his YouTube channel he probably thinks it's worth risking his life.


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## Cycleops (5 Jul 2017)

Even if they were all in the wrong lane the trucker made a deliberate attempt to maim them. He knew what he was doing.


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## Disabledcyclist40 (5 Jul 2017)

Cycleops said:


> Even if they were all in the wrong lane the trucker made a deliberate attempt to maim them. He knew what he was doing.


But if they'd have not put themselves there consciously, he'd have had nothing to aim at maiming


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## vickster (5 Jul 2017)

Every cyclist in London does it he says....doesn't make it the right thing to do though ...idiot cyclists all round indeed. Well done to the truck driver for keeping his cool pretty much!


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## vickster (5 Jul 2017)

Cycleops said:


> Even if they were all in the wrong lane the trucker made a deliberate attempt to maim them. He knew what he was doing.


Huh...how do you figure that? he just drove forwards in the correct lane...unlike the cyclists who decided to ride up his inside on a narrowing busy road!


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## keithmac (5 Jul 2017)

Cyclists 100% to blame for that one, riding like that gives us all a bad name.

Just wrong on so many levels..

Anybody who thinks the lorry driver was in the wrong must be watching a different video.


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## alicat (5 Jul 2017)

I agree with Cyclops. Some of the cyclists had already passed the lorry so the driver knew cyclists were there. It was at least negligent on the part of the driver to assume that they had all got ahead.


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## Lonestar (5 Jul 2017)

No doubt the cyclists were in the wrong and poorly placed.

Edited for the reason I don't know what the driver saw or didn't see....But that's one angry lorry driver.


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## cubey (5 Jul 2017)

Driver right, cyclist wrong. Simples, don't put yourself in danger.


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## Venod (5 Jul 2017)

keithmac said:


> Cyclists 100% to blame for that one, riding like that gives us all a bad name.



No it doesn't, it was terrible riding and nothing to do with how I ride.


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## jefmcg (5 Jul 2017)

You don't have the right to kill someone just because they are in the wrong lane! 

I am shocked this even needs to be said. We all have a duty of care to others.


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## Dayvo (5 Jul 2017)

jefmcg said:


> You don't have the right to kill someone just because they are in the wrong lane! I am shocked this even needs to be said. We all have a duty of care to others.



How can you transfer the blame onto the driver?

They were all in the WRONG lane (so as to gain a few yards instead of being stuck behind the lorry). They KNOW that drivers have a blind-spot. And they KNOW not to undertake.

As said up-thread, it was dreadful roadcraft from all of them.


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## KnackeredBike (5 Jul 2017)

jefmcg said:


> You don't have the right to kill someone just because they are in the wrong lane!
> 
> I am shocked this even needs to be said. We all have a duty of care to others.


Without sounding cliched try driving a lorry.

If you're potentially in the path of a lorry or van you get in front of them or you get behind them, especially if you're undertaking in the wrong lane.. No way to check blind spots so you're relying on being in the right place to be seen in a mirror. Maybe okay for one cyclist but when you have a dozen it would literally be impossible to check everyone is out the way, whilst simultaneously not hitting the ones in front of you.


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## aferris2 (5 Jul 2017)

Am I on the right forum? (Scrolls up to check the top...). Other cyclists saying the driver was not to blame?
Quite right though. Those cyclists shouldn't have tried to squeeze through.


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## steveindenmark (5 Jul 2017)

At what stage do we think the lorry driver should have stopped to see if there were more bikes lurking there? At no stage in my opinion. The cyclists were in the wrong. If they dont give a hoot about their own lives. Why should the responsibility be shifted to the driver? Its a good example which shows it is not always the drivers fault.


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## S-Express (5 Jul 2017)

jefmcg said:


> We all have a duty of care to others.



Including those correctly observing traffic law and the highway code.


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## slowmotion (5 Jul 2017)

It's Cheyne Walk, eastbound, at the junction with Battersea Bridge. I ride through there quite a bit. There are three lanes going into the lights, and two across the junction. The third lane at the lights is clearly marked as a left turn lane. Anybody who attempts to race an artic across the junction, in its blind spot, having started on the inside lane is Darwin Award material. Self-righteous nobber too.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...=337.3973&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


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## steveindenmark (5 Jul 2017)

S-Express said:


> Including those correctly observing traffic law and the highway code.


How would the lorry driver feel if he had killed one or more of them? What care were they showing towards him? Its a 2 way thing. There behaviour cannot be excused by putting the onus on the driver.


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## J1888 (5 Jul 2017)

God-awful cycling


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## S-Express (5 Jul 2017)

steveindenmark said:


> How would the lorry driver feel if he had killed one or more of them? What care were they showing towards him? Its a 2 way thing. There behaviour cannot be excused by putting the onus on the driver.



I know that. It's kind of what I was getting at.


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## davidphilips (5 Jul 2017)

Just one question? If any one thinks the lorry driver was some how in the wrong then what on earth should the driver have done? All the driver done was drive of in the correct lane at a normal speed when the lights changed, if he had not done so he would have held up all the traffic what else could he have done considering the cyclist was in his blind side and should not have been there?


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## Cycleops (5 Jul 2017)

Can't be holding up the traffic for a few stupid cyclists now can we?


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## davidphilips (5 Jul 2017)

Cycleops said:


> Can't be holding up the traffic for a few stupid cyclists now can we?



Do you imply that drivers should stop and not go at traffic lights if there are cyclists any where? The cyclists where in the left hand lane for turning left the driver drove forward what else should or indeed could he have done?


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## Tanis8472 (5 Jul 2017)

What a bunch of Knobbers.


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## toffee (5 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> Huh...how do you figure that? he just drove forwards in the correct lane...unlike the cyclists who decided to ride up his inside on a narrowing busy road!




He knew they were there and just kept going. The lorry could have stopped till the cyclists had cleared from the inside. Yes it is a pain to have to wait but killing them is worse. I take it from his comments that the lorry driver is just sick of the cyclists.


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## dr snuggles (5 Jul 2017)

Look at where the fella with the camera is when the incident happens! What a set of nobs.


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## Tanis8472 (5 Jul 2017)

toffee said:


> He knew they were there and just kept going. The lorry could have stopped till the cyclists had cleared from the inside. Yes it is a pain to have to wait but killing them is worse. I take it from his comments that the lorry driver is just sick of the cyclists.


Cobblers


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## toffee (5 Jul 2017)

Tanis8472 said:


> Cobblers


Which bit?


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## Tanis8472 (5 Jul 2017)

Guess


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## toffee (5 Jul 2017)

Tanis8472 said:


> Guess


Well if you think that I am defending the cyclists you would be wrong. But killing them just because they are on his bit of the road won't make him sleep better if the worst happened.


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## steveindenmark (5 Jul 2017)

toffee said:


> Well if you think that I am defending the cyclists you would be wrong. But killing them just because they are on his bit of the road won't make him sleep better if the worst happened.


So what responsibility do the cyclists have in keeping themselves alive


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## toffee (5 Jul 2017)

steveindenmark said:


> So what responsibility do the cyclists have in keeping themselves alive


A lot. You wouldn't get me doing that.


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## steveindenmark (5 Jul 2017)

toffee said:


> A lot. You wouldn't get me doing that.


Not me either. Totally ridiculous.


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## slowmotion (5 Jul 2017)

The cyclist's claim that "we all do that in London" really boils my wee. No, I don't wish to enlist for his _ jihad_ to "thin out the herd" by incredibly stupid riding. Idiot.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (5 Jul 2017)

toffee said:


> Well if you think that I am defending the cyclists you would be wrong. But killing them just because they are on his bit of the road won't make him sleep better if the worst happened.



They weren't on his bit of the road when the lights changed, they were in the left hand turn lane.


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## Tanis8472 (5 Jul 2017)

ABikeCam said:


> They weren't on his bit of the road when the lights changed, they were in the left hand turn lane.



Hence my cobblers remark. It was aimed at the suggestion that the driver should stop until all cyclists were clear.


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## GrumpyGregry (5 Jul 2017)

How very dare you drive straight ahead whilst I am illegally undertaking you in your blind spot?


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## I like Skol (5 Jul 2017)

toffee said:


> He knew they were there and just kept going. The lorry could have stopped till the cyclists had cleared from the inside. Yes it is a pain to have to wait but killing them is worse. I take it from his comments that the lorry driver is just sick of the cyclists.


If the truck had paused or waited until the IDIOT cyclists had cleared the danger zone there would have been another cyclist to fill that space!!! It isn't great, or ideal, or right, but the lorry driver has to assume that nobody will be stupid enough to throw themselves under his wheels. Think about it!


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## winjim (5 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4868940, member: 45"]The driver hangs back for the bikes he can see, and then accelerates when he knows they're not going to collide. The idiot stays in his blind spot throughout.[/QUOTE]
Having watched it a few times I think you're correct. It also looks like the cyclist swings across to the right, that is into the path of the lorry, in order to exit the junction, as the lane he's in ceases to be.


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## vickster (5 Jul 2017)

winjim said:


> Having watched it a few times I think you're correct. It also looks like the cyclist swings across to the right, that is into the path of the lorry, in order to exit the junction, as the lane he's in ceases to be.


As he was in the wrong lane to go straight on


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## winjim (5 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> As he was in the wrong lane to go straight on


Indeed.


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## ianrauk (5 Jul 2017)

Well I wouldn't have gone down there if I was going straight on.


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## slowmotion (5 Jul 2017)

Actually, the worst bit is that he was being lazy. If you want to jump the traffic by attempting a risky manoeuvre when three lanes go into two, don't you make sure that you are ahead of the stuff that could squash you?
The guy's a complete peanut.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

This junction seems purpose built to create conflict between cyclists, who are usually invited to filter down the left side of traffic to reach an ASL. So they find themselves, in this case, stranded in the left turning lane and have two choices ; race the first vehicle away from the lights or hold back. Most of us, and most of that group in the video have the kegs to outstrip a wagon away from the lights, and you can see the group split - with our protagonist, being tha last of the group, getting ahead of the wagon mementarily. But what he didn't allow for was a fast (unladen?) truck who proceeded to aim his nearside front wheel at a point a few inches off the kerb. He knew that there were cyclists because the handful raced off in front in clear view. But he chose to drive in such a way tgat any cyclist caught between the kerb and the truck would be taught a lesson. He damn well knew that the cyclist was there because he stopped and jumped out of his cab to berate him, so I don't fall for the suggestion that the cyclist was invisible to him. So yes the cyclist took a risk but he was out in front of the truck until it passed him and squeezed him over. The infrastructure is very poor, and puts people into conflict, but in my view the truck driver was out to prove a point. He failed in his duty of care.

Also. All this talk of blind spots. The road environment is full of cyclists. We think of cyclists being dropped into this environment with dangerous vehicles all around which they're supposed to beware of. We should be looking at it from another perspective. The urban environment is full of vulnerable pedestrians and cyclists. Dropping a 40 ton machine into this is madness. Particularly when the operator can't see out of the farking windows! Why do we put up with vehicles on our roads that possess blind spots? The truck driver is a cyclist hating nobber who knew very well what he was doing.


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## slowmotion (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> This junction seems purpose built to create conflict between cyclists, who are usually invited to filter down the left side of traffic to reach an ASL. So they find themselves, in this case, stranded in the left turning lane and have two choices ; race the first vehicle away from the lights or hold back. Most of us, and most of that group in the video have the kegs to outstrip a wagon away from the lights, and you can see the group split - with our protagonist, being tha last of the group, getting ahead of the wagon mementarily. But what he didn't allow for was a fast (unladen?) truck who proceeded to aim his nearside front wheel at a point a few inches off the kerb. He knew that there were cyclists because the handful raced off in front in clear view. But he chose to drive in such a way tgat any cyclist caught between the kerb and the truck would be taught a lesson. He damn well knew that the cyclist was there because he stopped and jumped out of his cab to berate him, so I don't fall for the suggestion that the cyclist was invisible to him. So yes the cyclist took a risk but he was out in front of the truck until it passed him and squeezed him over. The infrastructure is very poor, and puts people into conflict, but in my view the truck driver was out to prove a point. He failed in his duty of care.
> 
> Also. All this talk of blind spots. The road environment is full of cyclists. We think of cyclists being dropped into this environment with dangerous vehicles all around which they're supposed to beware of. We should be looking at it from another perspective. The urban environment is full of vulnerable pedestrians and cyclists. Dropping a 40 ton machine into this is madness. Particularly when the operator can't see out of the farking windows! Why do we put up with vehicles on our roads that possess blind spots? The truck driver is a cyclist hating nobber who knew very well what he was doing.


Errrrr, actually , that's complete crap. The cyclists put themselves in danger by recklessly ignoring the Highway Code. They also seem to have set aside any common sense about their own safety with their belief in their own entitlement. The herd's going to get thinned.


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## Simontm (6 Jul 2017)

Sorry @mickle that's rot. I know that stretch very well. There's no invite to go in the left hand lane to get to an asl because there isn't one there. If these are regular commuters they know that and they wanted to get a march on the traffic by being in the wrong lane. 



As you can see the lane continues naturally so those cyclists can either scoot ahead or will have to hang back as it narrows and bends slightly leftwards down a slope. 
They were in the wrong lane and some of them were in the lorry's blind side. We alll complain about driver behaviour, this was simply crap cyclist behaviour. And that idiot's excuse about London? Well I've had a visit to A&E and a written-off bike because of what is 'London behaviour' but because these aren't cars it's different?


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## slowmotion (6 Jul 2017)

You wait in the middle lane with all the rest of the vehicles. You move off with them at the same pace. What's the hurry? Everybody knows that the lights will probably be red at Albert Bridge a few hundred yards later.


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## Lonestar (6 Jul 2017)

No cars in the left hand turn lane to add to the mix.Although I don't know it I don't like the look of the road layout.


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## Racing roadkill (6 Jul 2017)

There's a fairly simple rule. Follow the Highway Code, it's not rocket science.


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## Globalti (6 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4868625, member: 45"]As soon as cyclists start riding into danger zones while believing it's everyone else's responsibility to avoid them, we're in trouble.[/QUOTE]

They do it everywhere. Recently some muppet on here suggested I need to attend a speed awareness course when I wrote that cyclists swerve across in front of you dressed in black with no lights, daring you to hit them and forcing you to brake sharply or swerve to avoid them. As long as cyclists continue to flout the rules of the road, drivers will continue to hate us.

The idiot cyclist (one of about ten idiots) whines repeatedly: "Everybody does it.... it's London..." 

I rest my case.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> This junction seems purpose built to create conflict between cyclists, who are usually invited to filter down the left side of traffic to reach an ASL. So they find themselves, in this case, stranded in the left turning lane and have two choices ; race the first vehicle away from the lights or hold back. Most of us, and most of that group in the video have the kegs to outstrip a wagon away from the lights, and you can see the group split - with our protagonist, being tha last of the group, getting ahead of the wagon mementarily. But what he didn't allow for was a fast (unladen?) truck who proceeded to aim his nearside front wheel at a point a few inches off the kerb. He knew that there were cyclists because the handful raced off in front in clear view. But he chose to drive in such a way tgat any cyclist caught between the kerb and the truck would be taught a lesson. He damn well knew that the cyclist was there because he stopped and jumped out of his cab to berate him, so I don't fall for the suggestion that the cyclist was invisible to him. So yes the cyclist took a risk but he was out in front of the truck until it passed him and squeezed him over. The infrastructure is very poor, and puts people into conflict, but in my view the truck driver was out to prove a point. He failed in his duty of care.
> 
> Also. All this talk of blind spots. The road environment is full of cyclists. We think of cyclists being dropped into this environment with dangerous vehicles all around which they're supposed to beware of. We should be looking at it from another perspective. The urban environment is full of vulnerable pedestrians and cyclists. Dropping a 40 ton machine into this is madness. Particularly when the operator can't see out of the farking windows! Why do we put up with vehicles on our roads that possess blind spots? The truck driver is a cyclist hating nobber who knew very well what he was doing.


Sorry, but, for me, it falls over at "they find themselves..." doesn't ever recover. Sure the infra is carp. So ride defensively. Sure the roads are full of badly operated heavy plant that will kill and maim. Ride defensively.

Think about what you are doing, assess the risks, make your choices, and, if you make poor ones like chummy, the consequences are yours and yours alone.

Or ride like a mindless lemming, copy the other lemming nobbers on your morning race to work and then claim "It's London... everyone does it" when it goes tits up?


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

Just watched the clip again and it doesn't get any better with repeated viewing. It is only a matter of luck that we don't witness a frail fleshbag getting popped under the wheels of a 40T truck! It makes me feel a bit queasy 

If this incident had been between two vehicles we all, without fail, would be criticising the vehicle in the left lane for not stopping when he realised he had nowhere to go. Luckily the girl in the white coat and pink gloves had far more sense and dropped back to wait for the truck to pass while our 'invincible' hero continued to race to a position he was never going to achieve, that of being in front, and visibly in front, of the truck.
IF the truck driver made one mistake, and it is a big IF, it is that even though he may have known he had cyclists on his left he assumed that surely not one of them would be stupid enough to throw themselves in front of/under his truck. Amazingly he assumed wrongly!
That cyclist was incredibly lucky and deserves all the criticism he gets. I hope if he is aware of the furore he has caused that he has the sense to accept it in good grace, thank his lucky stars he was able to cycle away and learn never to be so stupid again.....


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## Siclo (6 Jul 2017)

The whole thing looks like a lesson in 'what not to do'. Up the inside into a closing gap, up the inside of a left indicating taxi at speed, plonk yourself in the most hazardous position you can find. As to the pull off the lights, the mind truly boggles, the slightest miscalculation or bit of bad luck, wheel-spin, cleat unclips etc. and there's a stain on the road. He'd clearly got the wrong gear to make that acceleration but persists anyway


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (6 Jul 2017)

Just watched it yet again. I noticed that at the end of the clip the camera guy reenters the flow of traffic without so much as a look over his shoulder. It's only after three vehicles have passed him that he looks. To me that says an awful lot about the standard of his riding.


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## swansonj (6 Jul 2017)

The thing i enjoy least about cycling in London is peer pressure from other cyclists. 

I am naturally a fairly cautious rider and I often choose to wait in my place in a line of traffic rather than filter. Do that in London and you'll have swarms of other cyclists under and overtaking you. Stop in line with a gap that you've decided is too narrow or too risky and other cyclists will weave past you, quite probably displaying irritation at you being in their way. 

I find it adds up to being made to feel inadequate for sticking to my usual style, and considerable peer pressure to choose a higher risk profile. If I were a stronger person I expect I could resist it. In that instance, with all those other cyclists taking the left lane, I suspect I'd have bowed to pressure and done the same.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> I find it adds up to being made to feel inadequate for sticking to my usual style, and considerable peer pressure to choose a higher risk profile. If I were a stronger person I expect I could resist it. In that instance, with all those other cyclists taking the left lane, I suspect I'd have bowed to pressure and done the same.


Yes, but when you saw the way things were unfolding and realised you weren't actually out accelerating (the presumably unladen) truck would you have ploughed on into danger regardless or done what the only other person in the clip that demonstrated any sense did and held back?


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## davidphilips (6 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> The thing i enjoy least about cycling in London is peer pressure from other cyclists.
> 
> I am naturally a fairly cautious rider and I often choose to wait in my place in a line of traffic rather than filter. Do that in London and you'll have swarms of other cyclists under and overtaking you. Stop in line with a gap that you've decided is too narrow or too risky and other cyclists will weave past you, quite probably displaying irritation at you being in their way.
> 
> I find it adds up to being made to feel inadequate for sticking to my usual style, and considerable peer pressure to choose a higher risk profile. If I were a stronger person I expect I could resist it. In that instance, with all those other cyclists taking the left lane, I suspect I'd have bowed to pressure and done the same.



Thats the dangerous thing about bad cyclists in that even if they dont have an accident they could influence other cyclists into bad road craft and danger.

Perhaps best just to obey highway code enjoy your cycle and be as safe as you can be on a bike even if at times it may take you a few seconds longer.


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## Racing roadkill (6 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> The thing i enjoy least about cycling in London is peer pressure from other cyclists.
> 
> I am naturally a fairly cautious rider and I often choose to wait in my place in a line of traffic rather than filter. Do that in London and you'll have swarms of other cyclists under and overtaking you. Stop in line with a gap that you've decided is too narrow or too risky and other cyclists will weave past you, quite probably displaying irritation at you being in their way.
> 
> I find it adds up to being made to feel inadequate for sticking to my usual style, and considerable peer pressure to choose a higher risk profile. If I were a stronger person I expect I could resist it. In that instance, with all those other cyclists taking the left lane, I suspect I'd have bowed to pressure and done the same.



I know it's tough to resist, but you have to do your own ride, and if a bunch of muppets want to prove something to someone ( what or to whom is a mystery to me), you have to just let them get on with it.


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## rugby bloke (6 Jul 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> I know it's tough to resist, but you have to do your own ride, and if a bunch of muppets want to prove something to someone ( what or to whom is a mystery to me), you have to just let them get on with it.


Pretty much this. When I ride in London I'm on a Boris bike so am at a significant disadvantage in terms of both width - those things are properly wide and some gaps you just cannot squeeze through and acceleration - you are not going to beat anything in a drag race. I just hang back and let the idiots do their thing. Getting killed saving 10 seconds riding to the office is not how I plan to go. Once you are in your own little zone it is surprisingly calming.


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

All 8 of the cyclists in the left turn lane were going straight ahead with a HGV to their right. This clearly puts them in dangerous position and they should not be there. Particularly as there is another vehicle to the HGV’s right going straight on, meaning it will likely stick to the left. Once you’re in that dubious position as a cyclist, you’ve got two choices – out sprint the HGV or hang back (the latter usually gives you more options). The cyclist who is hit does neither - he fails to clip-in properly and finds himself in the worst position – the front left blind spot of a HGV as three lanes become two. The camera cyclist also finds himself in a precarious predicament as he is being squeezed to the kerb (I’m surprised he didn’t take the dropped kerb escape route) and it could have ended disastrously for him as well.

I suspect the driver can see most, but perhaps not all of the cyclists to his left as he waits at the lights (he has a class V side close proximity mirror) and I think his driving whilst not criminally negligent is less than I would expect from a skilled and observant HGV driver.

Given that you are likely to come across less proficient HGV drivers, do not put yourself to their left, in the wrong lane, as the road narrows.


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## TheJDog (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> .... truck who proceeded to aim his nearside front wheel at a point a few inches off the kerb.....



A HGV is wide, I'd expect it to take the full lane. Especially with cars outside him.



mickle said:


> ....chose to drive in such a way tgat any cyclist caught between the kerb and the truck would be taught a lesson....



Any cyclist who put themselves there is such an utter utter fool I wouldn't expect them to be there. 



mickle said:


> ...yes the cyclist took a risk but he was out in front of the truck until it passed him and squeezed him over.



How much have we heard about lorries and their blind spots in London over the years? He was barely in front. He's utterly mental.

The driver may well be a cyclist hating nobber, I've no idea, but if this is the sort of riding that he encounters I wouldn't blame him. I hate this particular cyclist. How he's lasted as long as he has bewilders me.


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

TheJDog said:


> The driver may well be a cyclist hating nobber, I've no idea, but if this is the sort of riding that he encounters I wouldn't blame him. I hate this particular cyclist. How he's lasted as long as he has bewilders me.




You* hate* this particular cyclist? Given that he was very close to being killed and was in shock, I can understand his immediate, post-incident rationale, even if I disagree with it.


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## TheJDog (6 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> You* hate* this particular cyclist? Given that he was very close to being killed and was in shock, I can understand his immediate, post-incident rationale, even if I disagree with it.



I hate him for doing something so utterly stupid in the first place. Maybe this will make him reconsider in the future. Maybe.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

The cyclist took a risk. 

He was ahead of the truck. 

The truck driver cannot claim not to have seen the cyclist because he immediately stopped and jumped out of his cab after he swept him to the kerb. 

The cyclist was an idiot. 

The infrastructure contributed to the clash. 

The truck driver is a farking psychopathic cyclist hating scumbag who shouldn't be on the road.


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## TheJDog (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> The truck driver cannot claim not to have seen the cyclist because he immediately stopped and jumped out of his cab after he swept him to the kerb.



The cyclist hit the door. He might have heard that?


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

TheJDog said:


> I hate him for doing something so utterly stupid in the first place. Maybe this will make him reconsider in the future. Maybe.



You must hate an awful lot of people if stupidity is the criterion that boils your piss.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

Mickle, you are not doing yourself any favours here and you are doing a good job as portraying yourself as an irrational livid loony vehicle hater!

At no point in that clip did the cyclist get the back of his rear wheel more than millimetres away from being level with the trucks front bumper. If you actually go back to the vid clip still image that shows before playing the clip you will see that unless the driver was stood up with his face pressed against the windscreen he is unlikely to be able to see the cyclist (you could argue that the rider would be visible in at least one of the many forward and sideward mirrors but it is impossible for anybody, no matter how good they are, to simultaneously watch 6/7/8 mirrors and the road ahead).
There is only one farking psychopath in that video and it is the truck hating scumbag cyclist who shouldn't be on the road!


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## TheJDog (6 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> You must hate an awful lot of people if stupidity is the criterion that boils your piss.



I really really do.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

I like Skol said:


> Mickle, you are not doing yourself any favours here and you are doing a good job as portraying yourself as an irrational livid loony vehicle hater!
> 
> At no point in that clip did the cyclist get the back of his rear wheel more than millimetres away from being level with the trucks front bumper. If you actually go back to the vid clip still image that shows before playing the clip you will see that unless the driver was stood up with his face pressed against the windscreen he is unlikely to be able to see the cyclist (you could argue that the rider would be visible in at least one of the many forward and sideward mirrors but it is impossible for anybody, no matter how good they are, to simultaneously watch 6/7/8 mirrors and the road ahead).
> There is only one farking psychopath in that video and it is the truck hating scumbag cyclist who shouldn't be on the road!



I am not denying that the cyclist was a nobber. What I'm saying is the truck driver knew that there were cyclists down the side of his truck becuase a buch of them popped out in front of him. So he could have predicted that there was one or more cyclsts still down the side of his truck at the point he entered the junction exit. If he didn't then he's a danger to other road users. You can't just plow on ahead like that if there's a chance that you might hurt or kill someone.

Again, _the cyclist took an unnecessary risk_, but lets not pretend that the truck driver didn't know exactly what he was doing when he took the cyclist out.

And I think it's worth adding, I've been in exactly this situation as a driver - not of an artic, but a 14 metre long van and trailer. And rather than pose even the remote chance of any danger to the cyclists I stopped to let them filter in. because I'm not a psycho nutter cyclist hating bastard. It's not difficult to drive like you give a sh!t about people.


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## Labradorofperception (6 Jul 2017)

The cyclist went for a gap that was not there and the truck driver had his elbow out.


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## Jody (6 Jul 2017)

All the cyclists should know what a risky situation they were in. At half way accross the box junction those who weren't absolutely clear of the front of that lorry should have hung back. Its just not worth your life. 

Personally I think they were all nobs for trying to go up the inside of an artic.


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## Lozz360 (6 Jul 2017)

Cycleops said:


> Even if they were all in the wrong lane the trucker made a deliberate attempt to maim them. He knew what he was doing.


I may be paranoid but I do believe that there are those that drive motor vehicles that would quite happily kill or maim a cyclist if they were sure that the fault was with the cyclist. However, this doesn't apply to this instance. The lorry driver had right of way and probably was not able to see the cyclists changing lane when it was not safe to do so.


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## PK99 (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> I'm not a psycho nutter cyclist hating bastard.



But you do seem to be trying very hard to come across as a psycho nutter driver hating bastard.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> ......but lets not pretend that the truck driver didn't know exactly what he was doing when he took the cyclist out.


You seem very sure! I'm not.



mickle said:


> I once drove something bigger than a Fiat Panda and I am the bestest/safest/most observant driver in the world because I spotted someone endangering themselves and successfully avoided them........


I will see your pointless anecdote and raise you another, possibly equally meaningless, anecdote...

I used to drive for a living. Nothing huge, just a LWB Sprinter Luton van covering around 30-40k a year for 13 yrs. I once nearly crushed an elderly lady and here is how. I had popped to the bank in my local town, parking on street at the end of a limited waiting section. When I returned to my van I approached from the rear to find someone had parked in front of me virtually touching bumpers so I couldn't drive off without first reversing away from the line of parked cars. I had walked past the back of my van so had seen there was nothing there, climbed into the cab, checked both mirrors and began to slowly reverse while continually checking both mirrors. Just by chance I spotted something at the very bottom of my view in one mirror and stopped because although it hadn't registered what it was, I wasn't expecting anything. It turns out a slow moving old lady had wondered out of a side entrance on my blindside as I got into the cab and was crossing behind my van. I had gently pushed her over and thank god, spotted the edge of one of her shopping bags sticking out from behind the van! I dread to think what would have happened if I hadn't spotted her or been one of those drivers that slams it in reverse, shoots back, before roaring off flat out!

What I am trying to say is that with the best will in the world, shoot happens to even the most conscientious drivers. Stuff can get missed, things slip through the net, people will find ways to foil your care. You are being wholly unfair to accuse the driver of 'knowing what he was doing' when he collided with that cyclist and to be honest you are losing a lot of my respect by trying.


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## davidphilips (6 Jul 2017)

Theres at least a few things everyone can agree on. The cyclist was in the wrong and no one on here would have been silly enough to cycle in such a crazy way.

Also concerning the driver even any one who has never sat in never mind driven a class 1 vehicle knows there are blind spots and as no one can read minds then no one can really say the driver seen the cyclist or done any thing wrong.


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## sight-pin (6 Jul 2017)

Isn't that one of those mirrors on the unit that gives views down beside the cab?


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## Tin Pot (6 Jul 2017)

davidphilips said:


> Just one question? If any one thinks the lorry driver was some how in the wrong then what on earth should the driver have done?



So, at the risk of being able to hold more than a black and white view...

The cyclists en masse are in the wrong lane. They would've been better off behind or even in front of the truck, so that their presence and intentions were clear.

The driver still is the one bringing all the danger to this environment, he has a responsibility. Knowing that the cyclists were positioned wrong, seeing them cycle ahead of him, all of these were indications that he might not be able to see all of them, but he chose to drive on without pause.

Secondly, the cyclist is the one who nearly died. Leaping out of the cab and angrily shouting at the cyclist is not an appropriate response for a professional driver, or driver of any sort. This alone should be reprimanded.

So what should have occurred?

The cyclists should have been positioned appropriately.

The driver should have waited until he was sure it was safe to drive.

The cyclist hit should have looked out for his own safety.

The council should have put in a cycle box for this kind of incident.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

sight-pin said:


> Isn't that one of those mirrors on the unit that gives views down beside the cab?


Yes, and there is one above the windscreen for seeing down by the bumper also, but they have their limits and give a rather skewed view of what you are seeing. They are really good for using when stationary or manoeuvring slowly but the effect of the convex surface means that tracking moving objects, especially when you are also moving, is a tricky business. Add to this that you cannot give that mirror your full attention because you have to check half-a-dozen other mirrors and look ahead to watch where you are going and it soon becomes clear why a cyclist should not rely on being seen in one. As I keep telling my kids, with trucks/vans/buses you either need to be way out front or stay behind because once you get to any point inbetween you may be on your own!


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## sight-pin (6 Jul 2017)

Yeah. I dare say the driver was checking the other mirror etc trying to merge into the single lane ahead anyway.


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## davidphilips (6 Jul 2017)

Tin Pot said:


> So, at the risk of being able to hold more than a black and white view...
> 
> The cyclists en masse are in the wrong lane. They would've been better off behind or even in front of the truck, so that their presence and intentions were clear.
> 
> ...



Agree with you tin pot about most points, apart from the bit about the driver should have waited, why should he not have drove on when the lights changed it was safe for him to drive on and thats his job and duty as a driver to do so, the cyclist made a bad error in cycling up on his left and caused the danger, if it had been a car not a bike it would have been destroyed and the car driver convicted? Should the driver have stopped in the of chance there might be some nit that he could not see in his left if so the our roads would be chock a block.


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## Phaeton (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> And I think it's worth adding, I've been in exactly this situation as a driver - not of an artic,


Which is not exactly the same situation, in fact it's nowhere near


mickle said:


> but a 14 metre long van and trailer.


Which goes to show how little you actually know about the subject, next time you see a HGV driver chomping down on his Yorkie, ask if you can sit in his drivers seat. Then you may understand that driving a 'van' however long, is no comparison to the view from a HGV, the driver did nothing wrong & the cyclist is lucky to be live.


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## benb (6 Jul 2017)

I'd just point out that the arrows painted on the road are advisory only, unless they have eg "Left Turn Only" and "Ahead Only" painted on too. That is, going straight on from that left lane is not breaking the law. *

Having said that, if they wanted to go straight on, they should absolutely have slotted in behind the lorry and not stayed alongside.

But I also agree that the lorry driver has a responsibility to drive safely, regardless of whether another road user is doing something inadvisable. IMO, he knew the cyclist was there and wanted to teach him a lesson. He is driving a potentially deadly machine, and we should rightly expect him to do so with the utmost care to others, even if they are behaving dangerously themselves.

* Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002


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## Tin Pot (6 Jul 2017)

davidphilips said:


> why should he not have drove on when the lights changed it was safe for him to drive on and thats his job and duty as a driver to do so,



Because at the lights he knows the cyclists are there. When the lights change, he sees them flood around in front of him. It is reasonable for us to expect him to be cautious, knowing that things are not hunky dory.

When we're driving, or doing anything, we still have onus to be reasonably cautious regardless of how bad someone else behaves.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

Phaeton said:


> Which is not exactly the same situation, in fact it's nowhere near
> Which goes to show how little you actually know about the subject, next time you see a HGV driver chomping down on his Yorkie, ask if you can sit in his drivers seat. Then you may understand that driving a 'van' however long, is no comparison to the view from a HGV, the driver did nothing wrong & the cyclist is lucky to be live.



How little I know about _which _subject Oh Great Font ? 

At the risk of repeating myself, can I just re-iterate, that if a driver can't see great swathes of the road around his vehicle then it shouldn't be allowed on the road because it's clearly not compatible with the environment it's being operated in. 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of what the cyclist did, the truck driver could have predicted that a cyclist might be down the side of his vehicle and should have adjusted his driving accordingly. 'Priority' on the road is to be given, not taken. He drove like he wasn't taking any prisoners, probably hadn't had his Yorkie bar that morning and was in a mood to punish the cyclist's 'transgression'.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of what the cyclist did the truck driver failed in his duty of care to other road users.

It's not his farking job to punish other road users, he is neither police nor judge nor excecutioner.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

sight-pin said:


> Yeah. I dare say the driver was checking the other mirror etc trying to merge into the single lane ahead anyway.



If he does have a full set of mirrors why would he set off if he hadn't checked them all?

And if he doesn't have a full set of mirrors - whilst driving around London's roads with all those vulnerable cyclists - why not?


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

Lozz360 said:


> I may be paranoid but I do believe that there are those that drive motor vehicles that would quite happily kill or maim a cyclist if they were sure that the fault was with the cyclist. However, this doesn't apply to this instance. The lorry driver had right of way and probably was not able to see the cyclists changing lane when it was not safe to do so.



What is 'right of way'?


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> Whatever the rights and wrongs of what the cyclist did the truck driver failed in his duty of care to other road users.
> 
> It's not his farking job to punish other road users, he is neither police nor judge nor excecutioner.


Stop banging this drum because you are wrong! You DO NOT know what the driver knew or was thinking yet YOU are acting as judge, jury and executioner delivering a damning guilty verdict anyway.

From the evidence we have, the only person we can say for sure failed in his duty of care was the cyclist failing to take care of his own well-being.


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## Phaeton (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> It's not his farking job to punish other road users, he is neither police nor judge nor excecutioner.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> If he does have a full set of mirrors why would he set off if he hadn't checked them all?


He appears to have a full complement of mirrors and I am sure he would have had a good view of the road users around him when he was stopped at the lights. As I described earlier in the thread, what he cannot do, because he is not a computer or superhuman, is monitor each one of those mirrors fully and simultaneously to make sure he spots some suicidal fookwit cyclist trying to half-heartedly sprint into a gap that doesn't exist.


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## potsy (6 Jul 2017)

Was it the driver's first experience of driving in London?

If it was then maybe he got taken by surprise, his reaction afterwards could have partly been down to shock and not aggression.

If he's a regular down there then surely he has seen it all before 'everyone does it' after all, so not sure why he wasn't driving more defensively.

That said, every single one of those cyclists are complete nobbers, the guy that got swiped especially.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (6 Jul 2017)

Perhaps he looked in all those mirrors and thought - "There's a load of cyclists in the left turn lane intending to turn left".


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## sight-pin (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> If he does have a full set of mirrors why would he set off if he hadn't checked them all?
> 
> And if he doesn't have a full set of mirrors - whilst driving around London's roads with all those vulnerable cyclists - why not?



What i was trying to say was, Assuming the mirrors was clear of riders and seeing them riding off in front, he would then have to switch views to the offside to check it's clear as he would be merging to the outside lane, maybe the rider was out of view, (who knows?)


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## Tin Pot (6 Jul 2017)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Perhaps he looked in all those mirrors and thought - "There's a load of cyclists in the left turn lane intending to turn left".



Then covered his eyes and ears, hummed loudly and stamped on the accelerator. Yes, quite understandable.


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## Rooster1 (6 Jul 2017)

Wow. I don't know what to say. So close to death. I feel for the lorry, he needs to be able to proceed and he has deathwish cyclists trying to race for priority. You have got to read the situation. I do see that the lorry does not proceed with caution, rather he accelerates at a rapid pace and has no desire to back off. Fact is there is no cycle lane ahead so you are either clearly in front of a vehicle or you go behind - or under if you want to chance it. Scary as shoot

Hang on hang on, they are not in a cycle lane at all, but a turn left lane. They are not supposed to go straight on from that lane. Idiots.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

Phaeton said:


>



Yes, but you failed to address the points that I raised.


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## Banjo (6 Jul 2017)

My tuppence worth is if you flout the rules of the road you do so at your own risk.


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## benb (6 Jul 2017)

This.
https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2017/07/06/who-is-to-blame/


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## davidphilips (6 Jul 2017)

Tin Pot said:


> Because at the lights he knows the cyclists are there. When the lights change, he sees them flood around in front of him. It is reasonable for us to expect him to be cautious, knowing that things are not hunky dory.
> 
> When we're driving, or doing anything, we still have onus to be reasonably cautious regardless of how bad someone else behaves.




Think we will have to agree to disagree, i drove this type of vehicle for a few years and thb apart from getting out and shouting at the cyclists would perhaps have done the same as the driver and indeed as any other hgv driver would.


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## Markymark (6 Jul 2017)

benb said:


> This.
> https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2017/07/06/who-is-to-blame/


From the linked article:
"By the time you arrive at the junction, it is too late, and you, and several other people, are effectively trapped in an extremely dangerous position, with the best option probably being to bail out onto the pavement, or to jump the lights."

Nope, pull away safely and filter back into the correct lane, ceding priority, when safe to do so. The article makes out nobody is to blame and collisions like this are inevitable. No they are not. The article is nonsense.


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## sight-pin (6 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4869813, member: 45"]He's wasn't merging, he was already in that lane.[/QUOTE]

But in the video it shoes a car in the outer lane at the lights? watch as the camera guy is approaching.


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## swansonj (6 Jul 2017)

I like Skol said:


> Yes, but when you saw the way things were unfolding and realised you weren't actually out accelerating (the presumably unladen) truck would you have ploughed on into danger regardless or done what the only other person in the clip that demonstrated any sense did and held back?


Agreed. If the first vehicle in the queue is an HGV I will wait behind it. If I can't outsprint the first vehicle by some margin I will hold back and slot in behind. 

But quite a few posters here are saying the cyclists shouldn't have used the left lane at all simply because it is marked left turning. But waiting in your place in lane 2 has drawbacks too. You may loose, not just the "few seconds" some people have referred to, but two or three phases of the traffic lights if there's congestion -a couple of minutes. And, if you are several cars back when the lights change on a fast road, you are likely to be between cars that want to accelerate to 20-30 mph before clearing the junction, you will be holding them up, and that creates its own safety issue as they try to squeeze past you or fail to allow stopping room behind you. 

Seems to me there is no ideal method of tackling these layouts.


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## sight-pin (6 Jul 2017)

Gawd knows why i typed "shoes" instead of 'shows'


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## Lozz360 (6 Jul 2017)

mickle said:


> What is 'right of way'?


The vehicle that is not changing lanes in this case.


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## JtB (6 Jul 2017)

If anyone thinks the lorry driver saw the crazy cyclists then they should watch this video.


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## I like Skol (6 Jul 2017)

The article contains some nice thoughts but is unfortunately flawed and factually wrong.

_"There isn’t even a mirror that would have revealed them indirectly."_

Yes there is, two of them, one out front and one at the side. God knows what footage the writer was looking at?
And he then goes on to suggest the cyclists have no choice other than to endanger themselves in front of the lorry. Well yes they do, and as I keep pointing out, the lady in the white jacket makes the sensible choice and shows the other riders to be the imbeciles that they are!


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## PK99 (6 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> *But quite a few posters here are saying the cyclists shouldn't have used the left lane at all simply because it is marked left turning*. But waiting in your place in lane 2 has drawbacks too. You may loose, not just the "few seconds" some people have referred to, but two or three phases of the traffic lights if there's congestion -a couple of minutes. And, if you are several cars back when the lights change on a fast road, you are likely to be between cars that want to accelerate to 20-30 mph before clearing the junction, you will be holding them up, and that creates its own safety issue as they try to squeeze past you or fail to allow stopping room behind you.
> 
> Seems to me there is no ideal method of tackling these layouts.



The truly stupid thing the cyclists did was ride up the side of an Hgv, in a disappearing lane. Had it been a car, visibility would have been very different - I ride up a left turn lane when going straight on one of my regular routes, but do not go to the front if there a large vehicle there, instead I find a place in the line and slot in.

What should they have done?

1. Stop behind the HGV

or

2. having fecked up and ridden up the side, they should have let the HGV go and not had the "must get in front and save a few seconds" mentality so often criticised here when seen in motorists

To do what they did was stupid and indefensible.


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## slowmotion (6 Jul 2017)

Did the cyclist really believe that a third lane would miraculously appear on the other side of the junction like Platform 9 3/4?


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## berty bassett (6 Jul 2017)

I don't usually get involved in things like this as there is someone always ready to shout louder than i am 
i watched the clip a number of times and i am sorry but i cant see that the lorry driver done anything wrong - he followed the highway code - he kept to his line in the lane he started in . When has he got to stop letting bikes who are breaking the highway code go pass ? after the man in red ? after the one taking the video ? after the one behind them ? i aint gonna make no friends here i know by saying this but i am afraid it was a stupid move by all the bikes involved and to condone it is ridiculous 
it happens all the time in london ! thats why bikers die 

thats all i have to say thank you and good night


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## winjim (6 Jul 2017)

Isn't there a bit in the highway code that goes something like: _don't drive massive lorries into cyclists no matter how cross you are or how badly you think they've farked up_?


Edit: So there is, rule 147.


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## PeteXXX (6 Jul 2017)

The truck is 'unladen' or with a fairly light load (the lift axle was in the raised position, and DAF's auto-raise to save tyre and road wear). That said, anyone who thinks that if you stamp on the accelerator puts a truck in race mode, give it a try...
The truck driver was also having to be aware of the off-side of his vehicle to check for other road users, possibly cyclists, filtering into the single lane from that side as well.
There is also an island just ahead, creating a further pinch point.


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## berty bassett (6 Jul 2017)

winjim said:


> Isn't there a bit in the highway code that goes something like: _don't drive massive lorries into cyclists no matter how cross you are or how badly you think they've farked up_?
> 
> 
> Edit: So there is, rule 147.


what video are you watching ? the lorry driver didn't drive into cyclists - he kept straight , on the other hand the cyclist rode into a hgv ! an idiotic move that could have ended a lot worse 
if you think that this is safe cycling then i wish you luck


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## winjim (6 Jul 2017)

berty bassett said:


> what video are you watching ? the lorry driver didn't drive into cyclists - he kept straight , on the other hand the cyclist rode into a hgv ! an idiotic move that could have ended a lot worse
> if you think that this is safe cycling then i wish you luck


I didn't say he did. I didn't say it was. But holding your line and flooring it when there are vulnerable road users around you is not following the highway code.


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## berty bassett (6 Jul 2017)

winjim said:


> I didn't say he did. I didn't say it was. But holding your line and flooring it when there are vulnerable road users around you is not following the highway code.


you baffle me ! who floored it ? the lorry driver pulled away safely - a few bikes sailed passed him - it should have been obvious to all on the road what the driver intended to do - and did - if you think it is safe to try to undercut a lorry in the blindspot while in the wrong lane while even those behind you are holding back and surely thinking this is gonna end bad , then i am sorry i can't help


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## keithmac (6 Jul 2017)

I honestly can't get my head around anyone arguing for the cyclists in this instance, the lorry was in his lane and never deviated from it, the cyclists tried to undertake the lorry and hoped for the best. 

Absolute stupidity on their part and nothing less.

I see people filtering down the side of moving HGV'S on my commute and it beggars belief, never mind try to undertake them from a set of traffic lights..

People need to take responsibility for their own actions, if the unfortunate had happend it would have been soley due to the choice of the rider in that case imho.


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## winjim (6 Jul 2017)

berty bassett said:


> you baffle me ! who floored it ? the lorry driver pulled away safely - a few bikes sailed passed him - it should have been obvious to all on the road what the driver intended to do - and did - if you think it is safe to try to undercut a lorry in the blindspot while in the wrong lane while even those behind you are holding back and surely thinking this is gonna end bad , then i am sorry i can't help


I don't think that and I am not asking for your help.


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## winjim (6 Jul 2017)

keithmac said:


> I honestly can't get my head around anyone arguing for the cyclists in this instance, the lorry was in his lane and never deviated from it, the cyclists tried to undertake the lorry and hoped for the best.


Who's arguing for the cyclists? I see criticism of the lorry driver but that's not the same thing at all.


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

keithmac said:


> I honestly can't get my head around anyone arguing for the cyclists in this instance, the lorry was in his lane and never deviated from it, the cyclists tried to undertake the lorry and hoped for the best.
> 
> Absolute stupidity on their part and nothing less.
> 
> ...



I don't think people here are condoning the choices of the cyclists. What is being suggested is that the driver could have handled the situation differently.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> The thing i enjoy least about cycling in London is peer pressure from other cyclists.
> 
> I am naturally a fairly cautious rider and I often choose to wait in my place in a line of traffic rather than filter. Do that in London and you'll have swarms of other cyclists under and overtaking you. Stop in line with a gap that you've decided is too narrow or too risky and other cyclists will weave past you, quite probably displaying irritation at you being in their way.
> 
> I find it adds up to being made to feel inadequate for sticking to my usual style, and considerable peer pressure to choose a higher risk profile. If I were a stronger person I expect I could resist it. In that instance, with all those other cyclists taking the left lane, I suspect I'd have bowed to pressure and done the same.


Feck em. Feck each and every one. Feck em all.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> You* hate* this particular cyclist? Given that he was very close to being killed and was in shock, I can understand his immediate, post-incident rationale, even if I disagree with it.


Not his post incident rationale I hate, but his during incident knobjockery...


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> I don't think people here are condoning the choices of the cyclists. What is being suggested is that the driver could have handled the situation differently.


True. But we can't rely on others to do that. We can only control our own actions.


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## hatler (6 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> The thing i enjoy least about cycling in London is peer pressure from other cyclists.
> 
> I am naturally a fairly cautious rider and I often choose to wait in my place in a line of traffic rather than filter. Do that in London and you'll have swarms of other cyclists under and overtaking you. Stop in line with a gap that you've decided is too narrow or too risky and other cyclists will weave past you, quite probably displaying irritation at you being in their way.
> 
> I find it adds up to being made to feel inadequate for sticking to my usual style, and considerable peer pressure to choose a higher risk profile.



^ ^ This ^ ^ That's my experience exactly, having just started on a central London commute.

I'm stubborn enough not to respond to the pressure. I am also very conscious that before too long I am going to get rear-ended at a red light by someone who doesn't think it worth stopping,


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## Milzy (6 Jul 2017)

He was a complete knobber and if he doesn't change his ways will become another statistic.


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Not his post incident rationale I hate, but his during incident knobjockery...



He failed to clip-in and then made a split second decision to try and outrun the HGV, instead of braking. He messed up. I'm sorry, but i can't summon up any animus for this chap, I'm just happy he survived the incident.


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## mickle (6 Jul 2017)

berty bassett said:


> I don't usually get involved in things like this as there is someone always ready to shout louder than i am
> i watched the clip a number of times and i am sorry but i cant see that the lorry driver done anything wrong - he followed the highway code - he kept to his line in the lane he started in . When has he got to stop letting bikes who are breaking the highway code go pass ? after the man in red ? after the one taking the video ? after the one behind them ? i aint gonna make no friends here i know by saying this but i am afraid it was a stupid move by all the bikes involved and to condone it is ridiculous
> it happens all the time in london ! thats why bikers die
> 
> thats all i have to say thank you and good night



I don't think anyone is arguing that the cyclist was blameless are they?


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

GrumpyGregry said:


> True. But we can't rely on others to do that. We can only control our own actions.



But we do have to rely on others though...


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> He failed to clip in and then made a split second decision to try and outrun the HGV, instead of braking. He messed up. I'm sorry, but i can't summon up any animus for this chap, I'm just happy he survived the incident.


As am I. But his misjudgement is far worse than that of the driver. I suspect both are fuelled by a near-lethal mix of adrenaline and testosterone.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> But we do have to rely on others though...


Nope. We can expect. But we cannot rely. We must observe and adjust.


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## Origamist (6 Jul 2017)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Nope. We can expect. But we cannot rely. We must observe and adjust.



I understand the need to believe that we are not, to a greater or lesser extent, reliant on others to keep us safe, but that is the reality.

I am not "expecting" someone to avoid ploughing into me on a NSL rural road, I am "relying" on them not to hit me from behind. If I only had an expectation that they would miss me, I'd not cycle.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> I understand the need to believe that we are not, to a greater or lesser extent, reliant on others to keep us safe, but that is the reality.
> 
> I am not "expecting" someone to avoid ploughing into me on a NSL rural road, I am "relying" on them not to hit me from behind. If I only had an expectation that they would miss me, I'd not cycle.


People are unreliable. That is also the reality.


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## Origamist (7 Jul 2017)

GrumpyGregry said:


> People are unreliable. That is also the reality.



Of course, as 1000s of KSIs on the UK roads will testify to annually.

There's only so much you can do to keep yourself safe and you will make mistakes. You also have to rely on others, but they will fail you from time to time. Roads are shared spaces and as such you are not the sole master of your own safety - it's a matrix.


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## vickster (7 Jul 2017)

The cyclist in the video didn't do much to keep himself self, indeed nothing, waiting behind the truck would have done that


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## mark st1 (7 Jul 2017)

Cyclist in red went for a gap that wasnt there. He was just lucky Sagan never pulled alongside and stuck an elbow in.


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## Origamist (7 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> The cyclist in the video didn't do much to keep himself self, indeed nothing, waiting behind the truck would have done that



I think we have established that he made a near fatal miscalculation.


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## betty swollocks (7 Jul 2017)

No-one comes out of this well, do they?


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (7 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> I think we have established that he made a near fatal miscalculation.


I wonder if he's realised that yet. He certainly hadn't by the end of the clip!


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## Origamist (7 Jul 2017)

ABikeCam said:


> I wonder if he's realised that yet. He certainly hadn't by the end of the clip!



I think his reluctance to exchange details at the end is telling. If I had nearly been killed and I was certain it was the HGV driver's fault, I would have taken his details and reported it. The fact that he did not makes me think the adrenaline was wearing off and he was cognisant of his own poor road craft as he left the scene.


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## swansonj (7 Jul 2017)

Origamist said:


> I think we have established that he made a near fatal miscalculation.


Yup, I think everyone is agreed the cyclist did wrong. What there is less agreement on is what he should have done:
(A) it was perfectly ok to go down the left filter lane and to try to outrun the lorry, but when he realised he wasn't going to safely outrun the lorry he should have held back and tucked in behind
(B) he should have gone down the left filter lane, but when he saw that it was a lorry at the front he should have reinserted himself in lane 2 behind the lorry and waited there
(C) he should have stayed in lane 2 throughout and never entered the left filter lane if he wasn't turning left


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## glasgowcyclist (7 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> Yup, I think everyone is agreed the cyclist did wrong. What there is less agreement on is what he should have done:
> (A) it was perfectly ok to go down the left filter lane and to try to outrun the lorry, but when he realised he wasn't going to safely outrun the lorry he should have held back and tucked in behind
> (B) he should have gone down the left filter lane, but when he saw that it was a lorry at the front he should have reinserted himself in lane 2 behind the lorry and waited there
> (C) he should have stayed in lane 2 throughout and never entered the left filter lane if he wasn't turning left



If he didn't know that road, it would be understandable that he travelled down the left lane to the front and would assess how to proceed once he saw the narrowing layout ahead.

But I'm going to assume that he commutes that way daily and knows exactly what the road layout is like, in which case he should have tucked in behind the lorry (and taken the benefit of it).


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## Sheffield_Tiger (7 Jul 2017)

Mistake made...fair enough.

What irritates me, painting us all in a bad light, is this "got you on camera...putting in a complaint" self righteous bull.

Nobody has made a big deal about it except the cyclists in the wrong, and now it's going to be wheeled out as a big stick to beat us with whenever we complain about cycle lane abuse etc.

Oh, but I forgot, everyone parks on pavements and cycle paths so we should just accept it. According to logic of these nitwits.


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## Markymark (7 Jul 2017)

I sometimes find myself in the wrong lane on unfamiliar rides. When I do so my action to get back into the correct lane/position isn't, and never will be, race a lorry and try and squeeze in front of them at the last second. It would be to filter back in safely ceding priority to the traffic in the lane I wish to enter.


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## Sheffield_Tiger (7 Jul 2017)

I know bikes aren't cars and vice versa...but if a car in an unfamiliar road layout got in the left lane by accident, it should turn left and then go back to their route at the safest opportunity.

It's not unthinkable to do that on a bike too, although the nature of the bike presents alternative options. Including getting off and crossing the road on foot. Trying to barge through regardless is simply the worst of a multitude of available options.


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## winjim (7 Jul 2017)

Markymark said:


> I sometimes find myself in the wrong lane on unfamiliar rides. When I do so my action to get back into the correct lane/position isn't, and never will be, race a lorry and try and squeeze in front of them at the last second. It would be to filter back in safely ceding priority to the traffic in the lane I wish to enter.


Chicken.


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## vickster (7 Jul 2017)

winjim said:


> Chicken.


Maybe but at least not spatchcocked!


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## nickyboy (7 Jul 2017)

Markymark said:


> I sometimes find myself in the wrong lane on unfamiliar rides. When I do so my action to get back into the correct lane/position isn't, and never will be, race a lorry and try and squeeze in front of them at the last second. It would be to filter back in safely ceding priority to the traffic in the lane I wish to enter.



Me too. Sometimes when it happens I'll get the attention of the vehicle driver and let them know I'm in the wrong lane and I'm going to cut across them or whatever. Then I'll give them a thumbs up when they let me proceed.

But like you, my first reaction will be to slow down and try to filter in safely, not race the 40 tonner for the pinch point


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## ianrauk (7 Jul 2017)

[QUOTE 4870596, member: 45"]I can see the frustration in him having taken reasonable steps to keep the cyclists safe, only to have the most idiotic rider I think I've ever seen try to race him for the gap without looking around him before launching himself into the side of the cab.[/QUOTE]



nickyboy said:


> But like you, my first reaction will be to slow down and try to filter in safely, not race the 40 tonner for the pinch point



You can close the thread now. The 2 above posts say it all.


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## Jody (7 Jul 2017)

Lozz360 said:


> What should they have done?
> 
> 1. Stop behind the HGV.



Then skitched on the back of the HGV when it set off


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## Origamist (7 Jul 2017)

swansonj said:


> Yup, I think everyone is agreed the cyclist did wrong. What there is less agreement on is what he should have done:
> (A) it was perfectly ok to go down the left filter lane and to try to outrun the lorry, but when he realised he wasn't going to safely outrun the lorry he should have held back and tucked in behind
> (B) he should have gone down the left filter lane, but when he saw that it was a lorry at the front he should have reinserted himself in lane 2 behind the lorry and waited there
> (C) he should have stayed in lane 2 throughout and never entered the left filter lane if he wasn't



Understandably, people have different risk appetites and you will get a range of views on what is appropriate. FWIW, I have employed all three approaches in the past. 

Whilst I have not used this junction for a few years, my recollection is that most cyclists use the left turn only lane to filter forward as the queue is often long (most people are going straight on and the left lane flows much faster), the lanes are narrow and flitering on the outside is difficult. This partly explains the poor lane discipline.


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## Dan B (7 Jul 2017)

I like Skol said:


> The article contains some nice thoughts but is unfortunately flawed and factually wrong.
> 
> _"There isn’t even a mirror that would have revealed them indirectly."_
> 
> ...


I thought it was quite a reasonable article, and I think you're focussing on points that the author made in passing, rather than the message he would _like_ you to take away. So what if the driver had mirrors that he might have seen the cyclists in, if he doesn't have time to look in them?

We (collectively, as a society) expect cyclists to filter down the left hand side at junctions to get to the front. We encourage that behaviour as road designers by painting cycle lanes on the left and ASLs at the junctions. We encourage that behaviour as drivers by leaving more space on the left than the right when we are queuing, and by giving grief to cyclists who try to take their position in the queue (by revving engines, tailgating, beeping, close overtakes etc). We (again, meaning "society" and specifically not meaning any individual who's posted on this thread) encourage that behaviour as cyclists by doing it ourselves.

We shouldn't, because (as everyone on this thread is fully aware) it's bloody dangerous. But until we stop, it's not reasonable to pin the full blame on individuals for doing the things that the system incentivises them to do. As the cyclist said, "it's London, everyone does it" - well, start by asking why that's the case, and fix the system to make it not be the case.


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## betty swollocks (7 Jul 2017)

Everyone on the road has a duty of care to everyone else. The bigger, heavier and the more potentially dangerous your vehicle is, the greater your duty of care.
The lorry driver is a professional driver in London and should have known two things 1) the blindspots on his vehicle and 2) that there almost certainly be cyclists on his near side - even if he can't see them. My theory (for which I have no evidence) is that he knew cyclists were on his inside, going (wrongly) straight ahead in a left turn only filter lane and decided to teach them a lesson with a punishment pass. He misjudged it: hence his anger - he knew he was partly to blame.
The cyclist who got squeezed behaved like a tit as were any others who went up the inside of a stationary, or just moving off HGV. The cyclists who may have got there before the lorry arrived, possibly went out in front (and it looks like some of them did) of it, so they could be sure the driver had seen them.
As I said: I don't think anyone comes out of this well.
I have only watched the video once and don't care to see it again.


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## glasgowcyclist (7 Jul 2017)

There are six or seven riders stationary beside the lorry for at least 40 seconds. The driver appears to have been aware of their presence and clearly saw at least four emerge ahead of him from his nearside. I'd expect that to ring loud alarm bells for him to not accelerate and to scrutinise his mirrors on that side to see if anyone stupid enough to ride alongside him was going to be squashed in the disappearing gap.

Yes, that's a pain in the arse for him but that's one of the burdens of taking a massive artic with ridiculous blind spots into a city that's awash with pedestrians and cyclists.

If the driver _had_ paused to check his mirrors further, the rider he hit might have gained that few extra feet and ridden off unmolested. Looking at the video again, I wonder if the driver did spot him before the collision as his brake lights are already on before the impact. Was he looking at the remaining riders further back down his trailer?

I certainly wouldn't ride like that, and I'd like to think I'd be more alert to the other road users around me than the driver was.

I hope the rider involved has seen this and gets himself some training because his roadcraft is shoot.


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## al78 (7 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> As the cyclist said, "it's London, everyone does it"



Oh that tired old response again. Reminds me of the toddler who makes the same whinge and the parent responds "if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it?"


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## vickster (7 Jul 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> There are six or seven riders stationary beside the lorry for at least 40 seconds. The driver appears to have been aware of their presence and clearly saw at least four emerge ahead of him from his nearside. I'd expect that to ring loud alarm bells for him to not accelerate and to scrutinise his mirrors on that side to see if anyone stupid enough to ride alongside him was going to be squashed in the disappearing gap.
> 
> Yes, that's a pain in the arse for him but that's one of the burdens of taking a massive artic with ridiculous blind spots into a city that's awash with pedestrians and cyclists.
> 
> ...


Maybe the driver thought some of the cyclists might be using the left hand lane to turn left as the arrow on the road?


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## winjim (7 Jul 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> If the driver _had_ paused to check his mirrors further, the rider he hit might have gained that few extra feet and ridden off unmolested. Looking at the video again, I wonder if the driver did spot him before the collision as his brake lights are already on before the impact. Was he looking at the remaining riders further back down his trailer?


I wonder if he saw the cyclist when he was pretty wide out, maybe thought he would hang back like the woman in white, applied the brakes as a precaution but couldn't come to a dead stop, then the cyclist just swung back into the lorry's path.


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## winjim (7 Jul 2017)

al78 said:


> Oh that tired old response again. Reminds me of the toddler who makes the same whinge and the parent responds "if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it?"


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## glasgowcyclist (7 Jul 2017)

vickster said:


> Maybe the driver thought some of the cyclists might be using the left hand lane to turn left as the arrow on the road?



Maybe.

In the circumstances, it's not an assumption I'd have made.


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## Dan B (7 Jul 2017)

al78 said:


> Oh that tired old response again. Reminds me of the toddler who makes the same whinge and the parent responds "if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it?"


You have entirely missed the point, was I unclear in some way?

On an individual level, following the herd is not necessarily always the best strategy. But at a social level, should we not stop and aak ourselves _why_ the herd is jumping off a cliff?


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## ForestCycle (8 Jul 2017)

I am a HGV artic driver of 5 years experience and I cycle mainly offroad.

I have never driven in Central London, which is a different kettle of fish compared to anywhere else.

In my opinion, the driver should have backed off a little - look at his proximity to the cycle AHEAD of the guy who was hit. He was a bit close.

This shows intent to "get on with it". Why? Not necessarily to teach anyone a lesson. Perhaps he was unladen and wanted to finish for the day, maybe he had another job to do, who knows.

Key point - 'mickle' is convinced the driver was aware of the hit cyclist before the impact. I doubt this. I believe that the artics proximity to the cyclist ahead of that guy, indicates that in the DRIVER'S MIND, *that* was the closest cyclist to the artic unit. A human on a bicycle colliding with the passenger door would likely make a driver aware that something has happened.

The drivers angry reaction - most would react like that. It is a confrontation. He is defending himself, possibly feels threatened/scared, but also feels the situation is not of his making. He doesn't seem aggressive to me in the circumstances.

The cyclist is mostly to blame, in that situation with 6+ cyclists, you have to watch your nearside mirror like a hawk, even if it means not paying as much attention to what is ahead of you.

Ultimately haulage companies should expect deliveries/collections in Central London to take a long time, allow for that and not pressure drivers. Drivers should also be pragmatic about making progress through these junctions.


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## mr_cellophane (8 Jul 2017)

Every taxi driver is London tries to run me off the road, does that make it right ?


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## I like Skol (8 Jul 2017)

mr_cellophane said:


> Every taxi driver is London tries to run me off the road, does that make it right ?


I haven't met you, but possibly


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## ForestCycle (9 Jul 2017)

The driver believed that the cyclist in black lycra was the last of the group to clear the junction. The driver appears to be matching his speed/distance based on that guy.

The hit cyclist in red remains in his blind spot throughout. I do not believe the driver was playing games or trying to prove a point.

Of his 3 nearside mirrors, possibly the cyclist was possibly briefly visible in the side close proximity mirror while stationary at the red light, as soon as the light turns green the cyclist is invisible the entire time.


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## PK99 (9 Jul 2017)

The original video now seems to have been taken down from youtube


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## Johnno260 (10 Jul 2017)

why risk being squeezed out by a 38ton truck, he is lucky not to be another statistic.

saying it's ok all London cyclist do it isn't an excuse especially when people out of the capital are driving on the roads, it's people like that who give cylists a bad name.


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Jul 2017)

Dan B said:


> You have entirely missed the point, was I unclear in some way?
> 
> On an individual level, following the herd is not necessarily always the best strategy. But at a social level, should we not stop and aak ourselves _why_ the herd is jumping off a cliff?


Or, indeed, why the cliff is present on a public highway.


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Jul 2017)

mr_cellophane said:


> Every taxi driver is London tries to run me off the road, does that make it right ?


Every? You must be doing something wrong. I get away with every other.


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