# Jeremy Vine "Have you been blinded by bike lights?"



## glenn forger (1 Dec 2015)

Is it me or are the attacks on cyclists getting rampant? Nobody's been "blinded" by bike lights. Almost all are a tenth the strength of car headlights. Watchdog last night showed that if you so much as get on a bike you will smash your head open within seconds, they switched to a lensed camera so the lighting was all murky and moody as the lead weight plummeted onto the bike helmet and smashed it to pieces. Now that mouth-breathing daffodil Jeremy Vine weighs in with a thoughtful contribution to the debate and Noddy Bacon-Sandwich from Essex will phone in with details of how a cyclist's front light made his face melt off like in Raiders. What a crock.


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## Markymark (1 Dec 2015)

1. Jeremy Vine is an idiot.
2. The media don't isolate irrantional hatred for cyclists. They do it for (to name but a few), with much greater harm:
a. Immigrants
b. Asylum Seekers
c. Young mums
d. People on the dole
e. Overweight people
And finally.....
3.


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## Milkfloat (1 Dec 2015)

Yes I have been 'blinded' by bike lights. There is one particular pillock who wears a headlamp on his helmet who 'gets me' on a fairly regular basis during my commute. Whilst I believe bright lights for cyclists are a wonderful invention, I also believe that shining them in the faces of other road users is a silly thing to do.


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## glenn forger (1 Dec 2015)

"600 lumen not suitable for urban roads" they reckon. Only "extreme cyclists" use them. I think my EL320 is 500 lumen. 

"Cyclists use bright lights to annoy drivers on purpose" some bellend says.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (1 Dec 2015)

So a Porsche Cayenne six inches from your arse with it's xenon headlights on main beam is less of a hazard than my Cateye with 4xAA batteries?


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## cd365 (1 Dec 2015)

I have also been blinded by a bike light, told him to point it at the road as I cycled past the other way.


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## Tin Pot (1 Dec 2015)

I'm blinded by other drivers lights every time I drive at night.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (1 Dec 2015)

When I switched the bathroom light on this morning it was blinding.


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## Milkfloat (1 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> "600 lumen not suitable for urban roads" they reckon. Only "extreme cyclists" use them. I think my EL320 is 500 lumen.
> 
> "Cyclists use bright lights to annoy drivers on purpose" some bellend says.



Generally I cannot find too much fault with either of those statements. 600 lumens is not necessary in an urban environment and I am sure some cyclists do use their bright lights to annoy drivers.


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## Markymark (1 Dec 2015)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> When I switched the bathroom light on this morning it was blinding.


As a ninja I only open one eye in the morning to maintain night vision in the other in case an assassin tries to attack.


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## classic33 (1 Dec 2015)

Just caught part of this argument on Radio 2, at present
As cyclists it appears we are putting too much effort into being seen at night, including the use of Hi-Vis. This is a distraction for drivers that causes them to make mistakes.

I'd rather be seen than not seen


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## threebikesmcginty (1 Dec 2015)

The Jeremy Vine Show = Question Time for Sun readers.


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## Inertia (1 Dec 2015)

Ive never been blinded by bike light though I do find the flashing ones very annoying. Ive also not come across anyone trying to annoy me with their lights, certainly not enough to warrant a huge debate.

I think car lights need some attention though, there seem to be a lot of cars with extremely bright headlights which stand more a chance to blind someone than a bike light.


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## glenn forger (1 Dec 2015)

Vine's a dullard himself, he reckons his front light "Physically stops BMWs from pulling out!".
No it doesn't.


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## Drago (1 Dec 2015)

There's no pleasing the moaners.


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## glasgowcyclist (1 Dec 2015)

Surely the problem isn't how bright these lights are but how they are aligned and their lack of a cut-off that stops upward light-spill dazzling others?

GC


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## glenn forger (1 Dec 2015)

That says it all. It's a "problem" that bike lights can be as bright as car lights. Sheesh.


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## pplpilot (1 Dec 2015)

so when is the debate on knob ends driving with fog lights permanently on ?


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## summerdays (1 Dec 2015)

I'm one that thinks it will come to the point where we are going to need more legislation. The race for bigger and brighter continues, I don't have a problem with having generally bright lights but they are being used inappropriately. For a start I don't think you should only run a really bright flashing light, and especially not on a cycle path. If you want to run a flashing light then there ought to be a top limit on how bright the flash is. And use it with a constant bright light to see with.

I've taken to looking away when I meet really blinding lights on the cycle path, or stopping dead and letting them move around me... after all they are the one that can see and I can't when it's not adjusted properly.


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## totallyfixed (1 Dec 2015)

Ignoring Vine which is my default setting anyway, there is a problem. We are lucky in the sense that although we ride dark country lanes several time each week it is very rare to see another cyclist which is probably just as well. About a month ago I was out in the lanes at night when 2 bright lights appeared in the distance coming towards me, too far away to be dazzling, so for the time being I also kept my bike light on full beam. The road twists about a bit so although I lost sight of the light source I could still see the upper tree branches lit up. Another bend into a straight stretch of road and suddenly the lights appear again, this time I could not make out what was coming towards me but I was erring towards a [silent] tractor, the ones with their headlights closer together. A tad worrying as they are often pulling wide trailers and this one was on full beam, I dipped my light but no response from the approaching vehicle so I flicked back to high for a couple of seconds and still no response. By now I cannot see much at all so I concentrate on looking at the grass verge hoping there is enough clearance. It is almost upon me and I am proper dazzled [sometimes it is not a problem as I wear a cap and the peak cuts out the light but that night it was cold and I was wearing a beanie] Just as the tractor reaches me I hear 2 voices, it is 2 women on road bikes riding side by side chatting away and utterly oblivious to the effect their lights are having, Hi they shout, I am unable to immediately reply, too surprised to see 2 women out on road bikes this late at night. I thought about turning round and letting them know what I thought about their lights but I was in a rush to meet my better half so left them to carry on dazzling all and sundry.
If cyclists want to be counted as legitimate road users then we have to obey the law and treat others with respect. I hear some of you saying, yes but I am constantly being dazzled by vehicles that will not dip their headlights. My answer is that is down to the individual driving that vehicle and not the technology at their disposal, there are nobs on both sides of the fence. We do not have the wherewithal in the current market to use a front bike light that has a dip and main beam without paying vast amounts of money. If we did then we could also flash drivers that stay on main beam, again we decided to invest in such lights complete with a remote switch because we spend a lot of time riding in the dark, they work really well and have never had a car coming towards us that stays on main beam.
This is over a year old now so lights are brighter still:
http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/chris-juden/bobby-dazzlers


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## andyoxon (1 Dec 2015)

Really bright lights are OK, but they may need taming, and consideration of other road users (IMO). I use a std flashing Smart light, and a ~2000 Lumen XML-T6 on the front, as the commute involves both very dark and street-lit roads. However the latter 'ebay special' has an added C&B Seen Ltd horizontal diffuser (Fresnell lens)/ vertical glare limiter, as well as my DIY 'hood', cable tied around light, to give a decent horizontal cutoff.


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## Fab Foodie (1 Dec 2015)

Springsteen was on about this years ago .... and some Mann got on the bandwagon ....


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GCr1eTbxbw


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## roadrash (1 Dec 2015)

and dont forget about the super bright rear lights

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l62scsz2yo4


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## oldstrath (1 Dec 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> If cyclists want to be counted as legitimate road users then we have to obey the law and treat others with respect. I hear some of you saying, yes but I am constantly being dazzled by vehicles that will not dip their headlights. My answer is that is down to the individual driving that vehicle and not the technology at their disposal, there are nobs on both sides of the fence. We do not have the wherewithal in the current market to use a front bike light that has a dip and main beam without paying vast amounts of money. If we did then we could also flash drivers that stay on main beam, again we decided to invest in such lights complete with a remote switch because we spend a lot of time riding in the dark, they work really well and have never had a car coming towards us that stays on main beam.
> This is over a year old now so lights are brighter still:
> http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/chris-juden/bobby-dazzlers



Not sure we can have an off-the-shelf dip and main beam (in the sense that an auto light is main beam) whatever we pay. I use a Strada Mk6 on wet unlit roads, because they are very quiet, but I'm still not sure it is properly 'dipped'. Given how few cars there are, I'm not sure I care, but it would be nice to have a properly 'automotive like' option.


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## oldstrath (1 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Generally I cannot find too much fault with either of those statements. 600 lumens is not necessary in an urban environment and I am sure some cyclists do use their bright lights to annoy drivers.


Not all of us cycle only in urban environments, and commuting to work is hardly 'extreme cycling'!


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## Globalti (1 Dec 2015)

Who is this Jeremy Vine anyway? Is he on the telly? I'm too busy either working or cycling or fettling my bike to watch much more than The Bridge 3.


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## graham bowers (1 Dec 2015)

Its very simple.
Vine is measured on his listener ratings, so he uses a technique politicians have used for years to generate votes. Pick a minority, then whip up a storm about some aspect of that minority's behaviour, real or imagined, whilst adopting a righteous and indignant stance.


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## Siclo (1 Dec 2015)

oldstrath said:


> commuting to work is hardly 'extreme cycling'!



Oh I don't know about that, last night I had floods, several cases of near death motorised mayhem and the offer of being "f-ing stabbed to death" by someone on a BSO in Moss Side who just didn't like being passed. Seems pretty extreme to me.

It's very often a high adrenaline full contact sport, more's the pity.

Edit for grammer


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## jonny jeez (1 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> . Almost all are a tenth the strength of car headlights. .



Is that true?

I find a lot of rear cycle lights to be annoying and also restrict my vision beyond the light...so blinded, if only temporarily within a small but important area.

Is it perhaps that bike lights have a smaller lense and offer a smaller spread of thier lux as opposed to car lights..

Dunno myself but, whilst I agree the discussion on watchdog and the like is a pile of crud, some bike lights are a little too bright form my liking.


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## Milkfloat (1 Dec 2015)

oldstrath said:


> Not all of us cycle only in urban environments, and commuting to work is hardly 'extreme cycling'!



Agreed - but irrelevant to my post.


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## Fab Foodie (1 Dec 2015)

oldstrath said:


> Not sure we can have an off-the-shelf dip and main beam (in the sense that an auto light is main beam) whatever we pay. I use a Strada Mk6 on wet unlit roads, because they are very quiet, but I'm still not sure it is properly 'dipped'. Given how few cars there are, I'm not sure I care, but it would be nice to have a properly 'automotive like' option.


Dynamo powered lights from the like of B+M seem to be able to produce beams that have a suitable light spread and cut-off .... in fact superior to most battery lights, I don't see why the battery guys (except B+M) can't manage to provide us with one.


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## Pumpkin the robot (1 Dec 2015)

The point I found frustrating was that some drivers think that cyclists have bright lights to annoy motorists. Its a point I have found with other people. They think we take primary position at pinch points etc to hold them up. They do not understand that in the majority, we are just trying to protect ourselves and get from a to b safely. We do not hate other motorists and go out of our way to upset them but it seems that quite a few drivers have this way of thinking.


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## gavgav (1 Dec 2015)

Radio 2 is my radio station of choice, other than the 2 hours when Jeremy Vine is spouting inane rubbish, during which it is turned off!


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## gavgav (1 Dec 2015)

Martin Archer said:


> The point I found frustrating was that some drivers think that cyclists have bright lights to annoy motorists. Its a point I have found with other people. They think we take primary position at pinch points etc to hold them up. They do not understand that in the majority, we are just trying to protect ourselves and get from a to b safely. We do not hate other motorists and go out of our way to upset them but it seems that quite a few drivers have this way of thinking.


They are also the sort of drivers who think that no-one should observe speed limits, use indicators, stop at red lights, etc, etc because it inconveniences them for about 30 seconds of their life


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## sidevalve (1 Dec 2015)

Martin Archer said:


> The point I found frustrating was that some drivers think that cyclists have bright lights to annoy motorists. Its a point I have found with other people. They think we take primary position at pinch points etc to hold them up. They do not understand that in the majority, we are just trying to protect ourselves and get from a to b safely. We do not hate other motorists and go out of our way to upset them but it seems that quite a few drivers have this way of thinking.


Actually I think you've sort of said it in one - 'the majority' which means that some DO. I have seen it and yes I have been pi----d of by it.
People only remember the ars----s [how many drivers do you remember this week - the hundreds who passed with no problem or the one that cut you up/passed too close ?] Riding side by side with your mate for a chat on a twisty country road stopping anyone getting past [without taking risks either way] when for a moment you could just fall into single file and let everyone through is a common example.
[And before anyone bangs on about 'getting past a looong row of bikes being just as dangerous we are talking two here]. Road lanes are often wide enough for a car a bike and a nice gap but not two bikes a car and any gap.
Second car headlights MUST be set correctly both when new and at every MOT if not - result fail, bike lights are set by guesswork and sometimes by numpties - sorry but it's true.
As for having a car six inches from your bottom you clearly have one of the few bikes in the country with no rear wheel. Are you REALLY in so much of a hurry that you can't let the idiot just get passed and get on with it ? Further if they were behind you they weren't really blinding you were they ?
Lastly I would suspect that far too many cycle lights if tested on a beam setter at an MOT station would be set at the 'high beam' setting [ie roughly dead ahead] not dipped [which IMHO is more useful anyway] - number of cyclists I have ever seen dip a light [and we get quite a few 'serious' lights here in the sticks = zero]
As usual we have the never ending bleat 'Oh everybody's picking on me because I'm a cyclist' If you want to be 'picked on' and have a whole raft of legislation against you try driving a car.You may imagine the car drivers always 'get away with it' but I suspect that the millions grasped by the government in fines proves otherwise.


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## glenn forger (1 Dec 2015)

Martin Archer said:


> The point I found frustrating was that some drivers think that cyclists have bright lights to annoy motorists. Its a point I have found with other people. *They think we take primary position at pinch points etc to hold them up.* They do not understand that in the majority, we are just trying to protect ourselves and get from a to b safely. We do not hate other motorists and go out of our way to upset them but it seems that quite a few drivers have this way of thinking.



Public Information Film on the bold bit would help. loads of drivers think it's a deliberate scheme to annoy drivers. Because "Cyclists are the enemy" has been force-fed to motorists they interpret every move as a sinister plot. One of the comments beneath the "I'm pregnant" driver clip was one from a driver who thought cyclists have to give way to cars turning left. How do these people pass their test?


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## glenn forger (1 Dec 2015)

Old Viney had a bit of an incident on the way home:

https://www.facebook.com/1691455784...455784407633/1732717203614824/?type=2&theater


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## Andrew_P (1 Dec 2015)

I just posted this in commuting about these 800/400 lumen lights that's weird.


On my bike I have two Volt 400 on the front. Around town out of traffic I normally have one on only and on low flash normally pointing down about 7-10ft in front. Use full beam only on country roads etc and I get by fine no issues at all. I keep reading about people that are buying or have these retina burning 800-1000 lumen lights.

If you own one please don't farking use THEM on your helmet and on the bike on a shared pavement that runs against the flow of traffic and please don't farking have them on some moronic epilepsy inducing 400/800 lumen super fast disco flash FFS and if you were called a self-gratification artist this morning by a grumpy cyclist cycling on the road with his head down because he and probably the car drivers he was sharing the road with couldn't see fark all and then had this farking flashing carry on for a while as nice bit of retina burn in the morning.

The worrying thing it is not that unusual, there is being seen and being able to see and then there is the downright farking dangerous.


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## totallyfixed (1 Dec 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> I just posted this in commuting about these 800/400 lumen lights that's weird.
> 
> 
> On my bike I have two Volt 400 on the front. Around town out of traffic I normally have one on only and on low flash normally pointing down about 7-10ft in front. Use full beam only on country roads etc and I get by fine no issues at all. I keep reading about people that are buying or have these retina burning 800-1000 lumen lights.
> ...


Stop beating about the bush and say what you really mean....


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## AM1 (1 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Old Viney had a bit of an incident on the way home:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/1691455784...455784407633/1732717203614824/?type=2&theater



Jeremy did well to keep his composure TBH


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## Flick of the Elbow (1 Dec 2015)

"Have you been blinded by bike lights ?"
Yes, often. Especially the ones that flash. Inconsiderate and irresponsible.


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## GrumpyGregry (1 Dec 2015)

Dazzled? Often.
Blinded? Never.


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## oldstrath (1 Dec 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> Dynamo powered lights from the like of B+M seem to be able to produce beams that have a suitable light spread and cut-off .... in fact superior to most battery lights, I don't see why the battery guys (except B+M) can't manage to provide us with one.


I thnk both the iq premium and the trelock 950 do the dipped bright beam thing really well, as did the Saferide. What none of yhem do is the combination with a switchable high beam.


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## Illaveago (1 Dec 2015)

There have been some very good sensible comments posted . It seems that there are a lot of prats about, motorists and cyclists. In a previous job I came across customers who wanted to fit higher wattage bulbs to their cars 80 and 100watt which are meant for off road use only but would not listen when I said that they were illegal for normal road use. I hope their wiring looms burnt out! It would seem that there are some cyclists who have the same attitude and have little regard for other road users.
I used to find that the old public information films used to be informative and helpful. It is a shame they don't do something similar but up to date to educate the public.


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## slowmotion (1 Dec 2015)

Part of the problem with bike lights is that, although chucking out less light than a car headlight cluster, the light source is tiny in area and that tends to dazzle.


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## Milkfloat (1 Dec 2015)

Looking at the clip posted by Vine, he was using a ridiculous helmet mounted light, the one thing guaranteed to 'blind' people in central London.


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## Katherine (1 Dec 2015)

If a cyclist coming towards you has a light that is so bright that you can't see anything other than the light, then that is what people mean by being blinded. How is that a good thing, that you can't see what is coming towards you and you can't see where you are going? As @summerdays, I have had to completely stop, until people have passed me, then wait for my eyes to adjust. Sometimes, I slow down and put my hand up to shield my face from the person's light. 
I have a bright light for unlit paths and roads but if anyone comes towards me, I turn it down or put my hand over it.


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## Flick of the Elbow (2 Dec 2015)

Katherine said:


> I have a bright light for unlit paths and roads but if anyone comes towards me, I turn it down or put my hand over it.


I also have a bright light for unlit paths, I have it on my helmet, if I need to shield oncoming users from it I simply tilt my head a few degrees to direct it away from them.


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## ufkacbln (2 Dec 2015)

... it is so simple

If a cyclist is blindingly visible than you can't claim that you didn't see them.

Reduce the lighting to the quality of a Glow worm and you have a reasonable argument when you fail to look and knock the cyclist off


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## machew (2 Dec 2015)

roadrash said:


> and dont forget about the super bright rear lights
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l62scsz2yo4



Its all the fault of the person who invented LEDs in fact they


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## totallyfixed (2 Dec 2015)

Cunobelin said:


> ... it is so simple
> 
> If a cyclist is blindingly visible than you can't claim that you didn't see them.
> 
> Reduce the lighting to the quality of a Glow worm and you have a reasonable argument when you fail to look and knock the cyclist off


Yes it is so simple, the Germans seem to have mastered it hence why so many of their lights receive praise and are used over here, particularly it seems by Audaxers who also use their hub dynamos. The bike lighting manufacturers are missing an opportunity here, the first one to produce an affordable front light that has a dipped beam and a main beam as per a vehicle will make a fortune. The technology has existed for years, unfortunately at present until the law changes 'boys and their toys" and squillions of lumens [which is an inaccurate measurement for a road light anyway] will continue.


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## RichK (2 Dec 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> ....
> This is over a year old now so lights are brighter still:
> http://www.ctc.org.uk/blog/chris-juden/bobby-dazzlers



I'm wondering why they've chosen a logarithmic scale on their chart?


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## Nigel-YZ1 (2 Dec 2015)

How many lumens is the four headlights, fog (sorry, driving) lights and daytime bliders of a modern Mercedes when all used at once?


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## 400bhp (2 Dec 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> I am sure some cyclists do use their bright lights to annoy drivers.




Yes, they do and I recall, rather freqently, commnents on here about the individuals pointing their lights in drivers rear view mirrors of they had done something that was "disagreeable".


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## glenn forger (2 Dec 2015)

Which cyclists?


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## oldstrath (2 Dec 2015)

RichK said:


> I'm wondering why they've chosen a logarithmic scale on their chart?


Because perceived changes in light intensity scale (roughly) as the log of actual intensity.

EDIT: It;'s called Fechner's law:
http://www.telescope-optics.net/eye_intensity_response.htm


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## oldstrath (2 Dec 2015)

400bhp said:


> Yes, they do and I recall, rather freqently, commnents on here about the individuals pointing their lights in drivers rear view mirrors of they had done something that was "disagreeable".



How frightful. How much more frightful than using a few tonnes of metal to frighten or injure people it is to maliciously shine a light at someone. it's a light, not a farking death ray!


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## totallyfixed (2 Dec 2015)

RichK said:


> I'm wondering why they've chosen a logarithmic scale on their chart?


I would assume for display purposes, without which the graph would be enormous with values from about 10 to 10,000.


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## 400bhp (2 Dec 2015)

RichK said:


> I'm wondering why they've chosen a logarithmic scale on their chart?



Lumens are measure in logs I believe.


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## cd365 (2 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Old Viney had a bit of an incident on the way home:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/1691455784...455784407633/1732717203614824/?type=2&theater


I would not have been polite to the old fool


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## benb (2 Dec 2015)

400bhp said:


> Lumens are measure in logs I believe.



No, that's loomens you're thinking of.


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## glenn forger (2 Dec 2015)

cd365 said:


> I would not have been polite to the old fool



Be more constructive if Vine did a programme on drivers like that.


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## Lonestar (2 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Vine's a dullard himself, he reckons his front light "Physically stops BMWs from pulling out!".
> No it doesn't.



That's rubbish,no way can you prevent a BMW driver pulling out.


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## User16625 (2 Dec 2015)

glenn forger said:


> "600 lumen not suitable for urban roads" they reckon. Only "extreme cyclists" use them. I think my EL320 is 500 lumen.
> 
> "Cyclists use bright lights to annoy drivers on purpose" some bellend says.





Nigel-YZ1 said:


> So a Porsche Cayenne six inches from your arse with it's xenon headlights on main beam is less of a hazard than my Cateye with 4xAA batteries?



In most countries (albeit not so much in the UK) people use a large and very powerful ball of nuclear fusion as a source of light. Neither AA batteries nor Porsches are anywhere near as bright.


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## Tin Pot (2 Dec 2015)

Blinded by a cretin on high beams tonight, which masked a patch of potholes.

Bastard.

I don't know why...wait I do know why stupid people act stupid. If we force them to lose the ridiculous lights and use their eyes, we'll all be better off. Drivers and riders.


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## Justinslow (2 Dec 2015)

There are some bell ends in vehicles with bright lights, there are some bell ends on bikes with bright lights, there are bell ends everywhere............NEXT.


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