# Positioning



## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

Does my position look ok? Thats with the crank at the bottom of the turn, so I have a bend in my leg which is good. My back might look a little hunched but thats only becuase of the low ceiling and me ducking my head.

thanks


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

heres a vertical photo


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## yello (1 Jan 2009)

First thoughts, after looking sideways, is that your saddle could be a touch higher. I reckon your leg looks a little too bent at the knee. But there's personal preference to be taken into account too.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2009)

You look a bit cramped, I'd have a longer stem myself.


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

what do you mean by cramped? is it my back looking a bit hunched?


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## gemma83 (1 Jan 2009)

I'd raise the saddle by 5mm, but do this over 2 weeks, 2.5mm ish per week, and would probably go for a longer stem, possibly a 100,110mm, this will bring you a little lower,as with all changes in position it should be done over time 2/3 weeks and you should knock the milage back to maybe 1 hour a day, 2 hrs on a sunday, all at level 1.This will allow your body to adapt without too much risk of injury.
Somthing to maybe think about anyway.


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## gemma83 (1 Jan 2009)

if you try these mods, make sure you post another pic


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2009)

You look a bit upright, but looking at the picture again that may be because you are sitting forward on the saddle. I prefer a stretch to the bars and a flatter back myself.


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

Yeah you see thats what I dislike, my giant likes that and I feel I have to stretch to get to the hoods. I prefer the feeling of just 'slipping' into the hoods with no stretching. The other thing is that because im 6ft Im bang in the middle of the 56cm and the 58cm. I went for the 56cm becuase the 58cm was just too far to the bars.

Also, the other thing I noticed today when sopped was that if my foot is at around 2 o' clock on a rotation and I twist the handlebars quite a bit, the wheel touches my foot. Is there anything wrong with this/ I need to change? I never steer that sharply when riding...


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2009)

All race bikes will have toe overlap with the front wheel, nothing to worry about.

Does the bike feel comfortable or are you having problems?


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## yello (1 Jan 2009)

Agreed, you look a tad cramped but, to me, a bit far forward. Maybe saddle back a bit, see how you get on with that, before a longer stem. 

You look to have large hands too!


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

I dont feel cramped actually, strange that. I feel like my upper body is a lot more comfortable than on my giant (which I think was too big for me), just wasnt sure on my legs. I have raised the saddle by about 5mm and that has stretched the leg out a bit now and I think another 5mm would be bringing the leg almost vertical so I think Ive got it in the right place. Il give it a ride tomorrow and see how is goes.

@yello
by raising the saddle it has brought the saddle back a bit so Il see if that makes any difference, but my upper body felt fine anyway


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## jimboalee (1 Jan 2009)

Roadiewill,

The seat height should be approx 0.875 your inside leg.
When you sit on the saddle, drop a verticle line from the knobbly bone on the outside of your knee. It should pass through the pedal spindle when the crank is horizontal. If it doesn't, move the saddle back or forth.
When you are riding (on the hoods) and glance down to look at the front wheel spindle, are the handlebars in the way of your sight?
Yes - Good.
If you can see the front wheel spindle, the stem needs changing.

When this is all set up, your thoracic vertebrae should be at 45 Deg.

From putting a straight ruler up to the photo, your position looks OK.
But check the saddle 'fore-aft' position.


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2009)

jimboalee said:


> Roadiewill,
> 
> The seat height should be approx 0.875 your inside leg.
> When you sit on the saddle, drop a verticle line from the knobbly bone on the outside of your knee. It should pass through the pedal spindle when the crank is horizontal. If it doesn't, move the saddle back or forth.
> ...


Depends on frame geometry and upper body length, surely?


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

Yeah this is what the guy told me in the shop. 
He did that test and I saw what I should apparently see.
When riding on the hoods and looking at the horizon, when I glance down thhe front hub is hidden.
When in the drops looking at the horizon, when I glance down the front hub should be sligtly in fron of the handlebars -whichi it is.

I guess this means I just need to toggle with the stem height for my leg positioning really.


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## yello (1 Jan 2009)

roadiewill said:


> When riding on the hoods and looking at the horizon, when I glance down thhe front hub is hidden.



That's what I was trying to gauge from the photo, and what made me think you were a bit far forward. It looks to me like the hub would in front of the bars from your view point.


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## Mortiroloboy (1 Jan 2009)

My first impressions:
You need to put the seat post up
take a steerer tube spacer out that matches the distance you moved the seat post up by 
consider replacing the stem which I'm guessing is 110mm for a 120mm.

It's all a very personal thing though. or you could spend £35 on _www.bikefitting.com_find a local participating shop, which will give you a good basic start point for any minor tweaks.


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## Mortiroloboy (1 Jan 2009)

roadiewill said:


> Yeah you see thats what I dislike, my giant likes that and I feel I have to stretch to get to the hoods. I prefer the feeling of just 'slipping' into the hoods with no stretching. The other thing is that because im 6ft Im bang in the middle of the 56cm and the 58cm. I went for the 56cm becuase the 58cm was just too far to the bars.
> 
> Also, the other thing I noticed today when sopped was that if my foot is at around 2 o' clock on a rotation and I twist the handlebars quite a bit, the wheel touches my foot. Is there anything wrong with this/ I need to change? I never steer that sharply when riding...[/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Euan Uzami (1 Jan 2009)

saddle a tad further back.

also, try modifying the hand position: i'll try and explain this the best i can, it may still not make sense, but instead of having the hood in the crux of the thumb, have it just in front of the knuckle, and the heel of the hand resting on the curve of the bars, so the hood is here:

and the curve of the bars is taking the weight, but the hood is just keeping your hand from sliding forwards. that way your hand is slightly further back, basically.


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

Hmmm thanks but that doesnt feel natural, Il try it properly on my ride tomorow though.

This positioning is proving a good break from biology revision.. keep the suggestions coming


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## Randochap (1 Jan 2009)

Smokin Joe said:


> All race bikes will have toe overlap with the front wheel, nothing to worry about.



There is no reason a bike for someone 6' should have toe overlap. I'm 5' 4" and toe overlap can be a problem on small frames w/ 700c wheels, but I have 2 custom bikes that were able to get round the issue.


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## Mortiroloboy (1 Jan 2009)

It is my understanding that _all_ compact and semi compact frames are prone to TPO because of the distance between the front wheel and the position of the foot on the pedal/crank, which is relative to the frame geometry/dimensions, be it a 50 or a 60.


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## BentMikey (1 Jan 2009)

Randochap said:


> There is no reason a bike for someone 6' should have toe overlap. I'm 5' 4" and toe overlap can be a problem on small frames w/ 700c wheels, but I have 2 custom bikes that were able to get round the issue.



That would depend more on the geometry and intended purpose of the bike. I you didn't get something race specific, then that's not surprising.


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## roadiewill (1 Jan 2009)

Yeah the geometry of the tarmac is very racey, so that explains that then I guess.


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## BentMikey (1 Jan 2009)

Besides which, toe overlap isn't much of a problem when you're riding gears, even when you have to do very tight turns to make it through standing traffic. It's a bit more tricky on a fixed wheel, but I don't recall bumping the wheel more than a couple of times.

You should see the heel strike on my recumbent - almost my whole foot overlaps the front wheel. It's not a problem - tight turns just mean pump-pedalling.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ls-mike/3110877904/


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## Smokin Joe (1 Jan 2009)

User259iroloboy said:


> It is my understanding that _all_ compact and semi compact frames are prone to TPO because of the distance between the front wheel and the position of the foot on the pedal/crank, which is relative to the frame geometry/dimensions, be it a 50 or a 60.


It's got nothing to do with whether the frame is compact or standard, it is purely down to wheelbase and steering geometry. The last bike I had without toe overlap was a sit up and beg when I was 13.


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## Mortiroloboy (1 Jan 2009)

Smokin Joe said:


> It's got nothing to do with whether the frame is compact or standard, it is purely down to wheelbase and steering geometry. The last bike I had without toe overlap was a sit up and beg when I was 13.




That's the word I was searching for in my alcohol befuddled brain! I knew that I just didn't explain it very well


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## roadiewill (3 Jan 2009)

OK, I raised the saddle a bit and back a tad. What do you think of this?

Sorry for the odd angle, its my mums photography skills... also thats not my leg at the bottom of a rotation, it extends a bit more than that


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## Smokin Joe (3 Jan 2009)

That looks a bit better roadwill.

Did anyone ever tell you you look like Mark Cavendish?


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## jimboalee (3 Jan 2009)

There's well over an inch of toe overlap on my Spesh SWorks.

Learn to 'track stand' with the forward shoe on the inside. Usually, its the left foot forward, steering left so the front wheel points into the curve of the track.


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## roadiewill (3 Jan 2009)

Smokin Joe said:


> That looks a bit better roadwill.
> 
> Did anyone ever tell you you look like Mark Cavendish?




haha no, not sure if thats a compliment though 

My backs aching a little now after 26 miles today, not sure exactly why though. Could be the combination of

A) Being on 3 longish rides in one week ahving not been on the bike in 2 months

 Changing position

C) Adapting to new bike

Its a hard balance between feeling to stretched and being too vertical when riding in the hoods. My old giant made me feel quite stretched when reaching for the hoods, whereas this spesh makes me feel like I fit into the hoods position nicely but Im slightly more upright.


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## jimboalee (3 Jan 2009)

Next time you go out on the bike, warm up thoroughly and ride on the drops for the last half hour (and really get a stink on).
Your elbows will be approx 60 Degs. More like 90 when you start pushing it

Then come back to the hoods with a mile or so to go, and see how it feels.


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## roadiewill (3 Jan 2009)

Any other comments on the position?

the more the better


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## roadiewill (3 Jan 2009)

Just worried a bit now with the comments saying earlier saying I looked a bit upright. Do you think I should have got the 58 instead of the 56?
When I did the front hub test in the shop, I used the 56 tarmac and a 58 allez which had similair geometry (didnt have a 58 tarmac in stock).
The Tarmac which I have now passed the test, with the front hub blocked when riding in the hubs and the hub was also in front of the hub when riding in the drops.
The 58 allez however did feel like it was stretching me out. It also failed the hub test, as the hub was behind the bars when riding on the hoods.

I suppose this is the trouble of being in between sizes. I still think the 58 would have stretched me out a bit too much, like my giant..with an uncomfortable stretch to the hoods. Yet my tarmac has a comfortable reach to the hoods but it does make me a bit more upright.


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## gavintc (3 Jan 2009)

Looks good to me. Some prefer a lower position, but this will not suit all.


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## punkypossum (4 Jan 2009)

Sorry to hijack this a bit, but as I'm about to start test riding bikes, could someone please clarify the handlebars should obscure spindle thing? I know what it looks like when it's obscured, but when people say e.g. the hub is in front of the handlebars, does that mean from where I'm sitting, ie would I see the hub first then the handlebars, or is it in front as in right at the front of the bike, i.e. I can see the handlebars first, then the hub? And which one means the bike is too big and which one is too small?


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

When testing my bike I was told that the frame fitted me because:

Whilst riding on the hoods, the front hub is blocked if I glance down.
Whilst riding in the drops, the front hub is in front of the handlebars.
Whilst riding on the bars, the front hub was a bit behind

If the hub is behind the front wheel when on the hoods then the frames too large.


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## youngoldbloke (4 Jan 2009)

_If the hub is behind the front wheel when on the hoods then ... _*you really are in trouble*!


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

does that show the frames too big?


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

Some more pics, any comments?

sorry for the blurry-ness.


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## youngoldbloke (4 Jan 2009)

LOL_ - __If the hub is behind the front wheel when on the hoods then ... _shouldn't the hubs be in the *middle* of the wheels, whether the frame is too big, too small, or just right, and wherever your hands are?)


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

I see yeh, you know what I mean.

Am I right though, that if the hub is behind the bars then the frame is too big?


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## Radius (4 Jan 2009)

Looking at the pics there's a definite improvement from the first one. The last one you posted looks almost alright, but I think the other pics seem to be calling for a slightly longer forward reach, which would say new stem to me (not different bike size). 
I'm no expert (or semi expert, or sort of expert, or sort of knowledgeable), so perhaps wait for everyone else 

EDIT: And if the hub is behind the bars, that's just weird, and certainly too big unless you purposefully ride very upright, which kind of negates the point.


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

A longer stem seems to be the most popular improvement.

I just hope that I havent got the wrong size frame :/


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## www.sub7bikes.co.uk (4 Jan 2009)

The frame size looks fine, your position is ok, although a longer stem is probably a good idea, id only go an extra 10mm.
hope this helps


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

the stem size is 110 (measuring from center of the handlebars to center of the steerer tube) 
what size stem should I look at getting?


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## Radius (4 Jan 2009)

120mm?


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## RedBike (4 Jan 2009)

It looks like you could of perhaps done with the next size up. It's hard to tell. Hopefully a longer stem will sort things out. 

You've been riding an SCR which has a stupidly long headtube / a short top tube so that it put the rider in a very up-right position for a road bike. 

The Tamac is a pure race bike but it looks like you've tried to set it up like your SCR because thats what you're used to. It should be far more "arse up, head down" so to speak.


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

I tried the 58 like I said, but it felt like a real stretch to the drops and the front hub was behind the bars when I glanced down. If I should have got a 58 then why did the guy say I looked fine on the 56??


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## Smokin Joe (4 Jan 2009)

I'd be quite happy with the frame, better a tad small than too large. A slightly longer stem and you will be ok.


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## Radius (4 Jan 2009)

^^^ What I was gonna say. The difference in reach from a bigger frame would be larger than just a new stem, so it's better to have everything else ok and just have to change the stem, than have a bike that may essentially become unridable cos of pain / discomfort.


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## yello (4 Jan 2009)

Personally, I reckon that looks pretty good. And, imo, the frame doesn't look too small for you. 

But the most important part is how it feels. Changes in position can take some getting used to and cause aches, so give it time and the aches will go. But, imo, no change should cause pain - if you're not happy with something, move it back. It doesn't matter what it looks like if you're happy with it.


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## Mortiroloboy (4 Jan 2009)

You could take another spacer (or two) out, just my opinion, if you feel comfortable as you are and are putting the power down, then leave it as it is.


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## Smokin Joe (4 Jan 2009)

yello said:


> Personally, I reckon that looks pretty good. And, imo, the frame doesn't look too small for you.
> 
> But the most important part is how it feels. Changes in position can take some getting used to and cause aches, so give it time and the aches will go. But, imo, no change should cause pain - if you're not happy with something, move it back. *It doesn't matter what it looks like if you're happy with it*.


Unless it's a Thorn...


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## roadiewill (4 Jan 2009)

Radius said:


> ^^^ What I was gonna say. The difference in reach from a bigger frame would be larger than just a new stem, so it's better to have everything else ok and just have to change the stem, than have a bike that may essentially become unridable cos of pain / discomfort.



Yeah definately, the 58 would and did stretch me out too much. 
What Im going to do is leave it a few weeks, see how I adjust to the position as my flexibility increases again and then if I feel like I could do with a longer stem, Il get one.

thanks


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## jimboalee (4 Jan 2009)

Did you go out for a balls-out blast on the drops?

If you did, you will have found that the half hour session riding hard with your hands on the drops will make riding on the hoods feel a very upright position, even stupid for a race bike.

Riding hard on the drops is what this bike is designed for. Riding on the hoods is for getting the body into a position where you can take more advantage of the draft from the riders in front of you, with your index finger hovering over the brake levers.

Riding on the tops is a very laid back position for freewheeling down a shallow gradient where you see no need to be near the brake levers; or powering up a hill.

A rider's position could be as much as 10mm out on an 'off the peg' bike, but his musculature will adapt/build to compensate.

Even if there is a 10mm discrepency somewhere, after a few hundred miles, it will feel totally natural.


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## www.sub7bikes.co.uk (4 Jan 2009)

The frame size is good,dont worry on that front,probably go for a 120mm from centre to centre size stem.


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## Randochap (6 Jan 2009)

BentMikey said:


> That would depend more on the geometry and intended purpose of the bike. I you didn't get something race specific, then that's not surprising.



True and not true. Both my custom "sport tourers" w/ 700c wheels don't have toe overlap, yet my Rivendell Bleriot with 650B wheels (and bigger tyres) does. But yes, it's down to geometry, with my Marinonis having 74 and 75 degree seat tube angles and the Bleriot 71/71.

Compact frames are prone to overlap.

Here's how to eliminate the problem:


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## roadiewill (6 Jan 2009)

haha dont think Il learn to track stand instead...

any comments on the position randochap?


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## roadiewill (6 Jan 2009)

Ive also realised that if I relax my shoulders whilst riding on the drops then they do ben slightly, whereas if I tense up my arms are straight.


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## peanut (6 Jan 2009)

roadiewill said:


> Just worried a bit now with the comments saying earlier saying I looked a bit upright. Do you think I should have got the 58 instead of the 56?



Nothing wrong with your position as far as I can see given that you are obviously pootling along at a leisuely pace.
The reason you look and feel a bit upright is because your arms are very straight. 

I am sure if you were bombing along at 17-20mph and on the hoods you would bend your arms and be down in a more aero position The picture isn't really a fair representation of how you would be positioned on the bike for 75% of your ride

Take a look at some old TdF pictures in CW your position looks pretty pro like to me


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## roadiewill (7 Jan 2009)

yeh thats a good point, Im doing aboout 5mph is those shots to give my mum chance to take a picture


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## roadiewill (7 Jan 2009)

yeah look at this pic of tom boonen, looks pretty upright to me but thats because he's not going flat out. What size stem dya reckon that is? looks fairly long to me...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/mar07/dwars07/Tom_Boonen_on_his_new_Specialized_bike.jpg


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## roadiewill (10 Jan 2009)

grr keep on getting an ache in he back everytime I go out... why is this? is it just the new, more agressive position?


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## Radius (10 Jan 2009)

roadiewill said:


> yeah look at this pic of tom boonen, looks pretty upright to me but thats because he's not going flat out. What size stem dya reckon that is? looks fairly long to me...
> 
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/mar07/dwars07/Tom_Boonen_on_his_new_Specialized_bike.jpg




Well he _has_ only got one hand on the bars...if he put both on I reckon he'd be rather low. That stem looks like a 130 doesn't it?


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## roadiewill (11 Jan 2009)

I think a lot of this is down to the whole racey style of the bike.
I measured both my scr3 and the tarmac today, which are both large sizes, and they were pretty much the same measurements.
Only difference is that my scr3 has a 120mm stem and the tarmac has a 110mm.
I can see the difference in geomentry quite clearly. The tarmacs handlebars are about 1cm lower with all the spacers in than the scr's handlbars are with all the spacers out.
Perhaps this is whats giving me back ache....


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## bonj2 (11 Jan 2009)

your back ache might not be due to anything actually wrong with the position, just more due to the fact it's simply a change from what your body's used to.


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## roadiewill (11 Jan 2009)

yeh thats what I was thinking, but its just annoying after 15 minutes into a ride I begin to feel uncomfortable


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## youngoldbloke (11 Jan 2009)

Can you flip the stem to gain some height for the bars?


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