# What is a Hill



## eddie coffin (7 Jun 2011)

Ok, I know its a silly question so I'll explain. Only been cycling regularly for about a year and I live near on the Fylde coast (nr Blackpool) and its like cycling on a billiard table round here. As I got fitter, slimmer and quicker I've started venturing further away, to the Trough of Bowland mainly where its more of a challenge. Theres been a few climbs that while I've got up them they have been a struggle. One going north from Clitheroe and one going south out of Lancaster. What I'm wondering is would most cyclists regard these as a climb or am I just deluding myself?


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## raindog (7 Jun 2011)

I think we did this one two or three weeks ago.

It's a hill if you can freewheel going in the other direction. That's the only meaningful definition imo.


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## ColinJ (7 Jun 2011)

eddie coffin said:


> Theres been a few climbs that while I've got up them they have been a struggle. One going north from Clitheroe and one going south out of Lancaster. What I'm wondering is would most cyclists regard these as a climb or am I just deluding myself?


North from Clitheroe - surely that's Waddington Fell? 280 m ascent in 4.4 km (920 ft in 2.75 miles), an average of 6.4% and including a section which is steep enough to get a chevron on the OS map (at least 1-in-7 or 14%) - of course that's a climb!


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## gaz (7 Jun 2011)

raindog said:


> I think we did this one two or three weeks ago.
> 
> It's a hill if you can freewheel going in the other direction. That's the only meaningful definition imo.



If you can freewheel up it, it's not a hill.


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## Spinney (7 Jun 2011)

eddie coffin said:


> Ok, I know its a silly question so I'll explain. Only been cycling regularly for about a year and I live near on the Fylde coast (nr Blackpool) and its like cycling on a billiard table round here. As I got fitter, slimmer and quicker I've started venturing further away, to the Trough of Bowland mainly where its more of a challenge. Theres been a few climbs that while I've got up them they have been a struggle. One going north from Clitheroe and one going south out of Lancaster. What I'm wondering is would most cyclists regard these as a climb or am I just deluding myself?



Where's the one south out of Lancaster? 

There's a bugger of a hill (to me, at least) going south-east from Lancaster, via Quernmore and up to the Jubilee tower - if that's the one you mean, it is most definitely a hill!


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## eddie coffin (7 Jun 2011)

Spinney said:


> Where's the one south out of Lancaster?
> 
> There's a bugger of a hill (to me, at least) going south-east from Lancaster, via Quernmore and up to the Jubilee tower - if that's the one you mean, it is most definitely a hill!



Yep, thats the one. Well thats a relief I dont mind telling you. Was dreading the thought that I was going to get the reply that it was just "rolling countryside"

Its worth it when you get to the top though


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## marinyork (7 Jun 2011)

Small Hill = 200ft climb or 150ft climb and 14% gradient.
Medium hill = 400ft climb
Big hill = 600ft climb
Very big hill = 1000ft climb
Mountain is somewhere above this.


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## Dan B (7 Jun 2011)

We did this the other week, but I can't remember the result. For my 2p, it's a hill if you have to use the inner ring


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## exbfb (7 Jun 2011)

It's up to you if it's a hill or not.

I've slowly started realising that my very modest abilities mean that I probably have more hills than most people.

This is my own local killer section.

186 feet gained in a mile.

My own little nemesis.

To many of you, it would probably mean nothing, to me, it's a nightmare.
Just got to get on with it though.


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## Cush (7 Jun 2011)

What is a Mole Hill at 06:30 when you are fresh and keen and into your first mile is a very very large hill at 22:00 when you have done 80+miles mostly in to a head wind and you still have a few miles to do


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## brockers (7 Jun 2011)

Dan B said:


> We did this the other week, but I can't remember the result. For my 2p, it's a hill if you have to use the inner ring



A group of us were in the Alps a couple of years ago, and one of the group bet another that he couldn't do the Col des Aravis (a 700m 2nd category climb in the TdF) in the 53 ring (23 at the back). He did it too. For a beer. That's what I call desperate!


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## Holdsworth (7 Jun 2011)

I'm left for dead on hills, even though I have been at this commuting game for 11 months now! The only "hill" on my route is a 7% max gradient for 200 metres from the River Weaver valley up to the bridge going over the Middlewich Canal. No matter how I spin it just knackers me out by the end.
God knows how I made it up the hill through Minera and out to the Horseshoe Pass without dieing, I did admittedly get off and push for a section going up to the Horseshoe.


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## jamm13dodger (7 Jun 2011)

Where I live (in Cambs) it's a vague swelling of the earth which slows you down a bit.


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## pip ryder (8 Jun 2011)

eddie coffin said:


> One going north from Clitheroe and one going south out of Lancaster. What I'm wondering is would most cyclists regard these as a climb or am I just deluding myself?



The definition varies from person to person. www.mapmyride.com have an objective way of measuring climbs they're ranked, with 5 being the easiest and 1 being the steepest. I consider anything that makes it on the rating a hill. The toughest hill I've been up is a 3 though (Ditchling Beacon) I do 4s and 5s quite regularly.


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## gb155 (8 Jun 2011)

For me, a speed bump used to be a hill

now anything over 4% is , anything under and im happy to pretty much hold any speed I hit it with


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## eddie coffin (8 Jun 2011)

Thats a cool site thanks. It seems the climb from Lancaster is a Cat 3 and the one from Clitheroe is a Cat 2. I feel a lot better knowing that. No wonder it was such a struggle to get up!!

Is there anything more difficult than that round here? Or is the nearest place likely to be the Lake District?


pip ryder said:


> The definition varies from person to person. www.mapmyride.com have an objective way of measuring climbs they're ranked, with 5 being the easiest and 1 being the steepest. I consider anything that makes it on the rating a hill. The toughest hill I've been up is a 3 though (Ditchling Beacon) I do 4s and 5s quite regularly.


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## ColinJ (8 Jun 2011)

eddie coffin said:


> Thats a cool site thanks. It seems the climb from Lancaster is a Cat 3 and the one from Clitheroe is a Cat 2. I feel a lot better knowing that. No wonder it was such a struggle to get up!!
> 
> Is there anything more difficult than that round here? Or is the nearest place likely to be the Lake District?


Whalley Banks is supposed to be very tough and so is Birdy Brow on the eastern side of Longridge Fell, though I haven't done either of them yet. 

The Nick o'Pendle between Clitheroe and Sabden is pretty tough both ways, and Black Hill from Sabden up to Padiham Heights is hard too.

_Seek and Ye Shall Find! _


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## Byrd Sloan (30 Jun 2022)

eddie coffin said:


> Ok, I know its a silly question so I'll explain. Only been cycling regularly for about a year and I live near on the Fylde coast (nr Blackpool) and its like cycling on a billiard table round here. As I got fitter, slimmer and quicker I've started venturing further away, to the Trough of Bowland mainly where its more of a challenge. Theres been a few climbs that while I've got up them they have been a struggle. One going north from Clitheroe and one going south out of Lancaster. What I'm wondering is would most cyclists regard these as a climb or am I just deluding myself?



Torry Pines road, that's a hill.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (30 Jun 2022)

Byrd Sloan said:


> Torry Pines road, that's a hill.


ERRRR. This is an 11 year old thread and OP was last seen 28 July of that year.


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## Peter Salt (30 Jun 2022)

Byrd Sloan said:


> Torry Pines road, that's a hill.


I admire your thread digging skills, sir.

That said, your taste in 'hills' is rubbish. I looked the one you mentioned up and it appears to be 2.3km with an average gradient of 5.5% and a maximum of 7%. You call that a 'barf' over here, or 'Yorkshire flat'


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## vickster (30 Jun 2022)

Peter Salt said:


> I admire your thread digging skills, sir.
> 
> That said, your taste in 'hills' is rubbish. I looked the one you mentioned up and it appears to be 2.3km with an average gradient of 5.5% and a maximum of 7%. You call that a 'barf' over here, or 'Yorkshire flat'



I don’t think Hawaii is known for its hills is it?


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## Peter Salt (30 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> I don’t think Hawaii is known for its hills is it?


The one I found was in California so maybe got the wrong bump? Pretty sure Hawaii is full of mountains mate. Look up Mauna Kea for one.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (30 Jun 2022)

Hawaii is full of volcanoes. 
Them's hills them is.


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## ebikeerwidnes (30 Jun 2022)

On the TDF (probabaly) commentary a few years ago they were talking out this
It was one of those stages in the live commentary where the breakaway has gone off - got a 5 minute lead which is stable and there is naff all going on for the next 2-3 hours except scenic view of any house bigger than a semi

Anyway it went something like this
After this section there is a sort of false flat followed by another climb
On that point David (or whoever) what actually is a false flat
Well it is sort of like a point where the slope becomes lower so it feels like it is flatter but actually it is still a hill which you realise after a short while when you are still hurting

After this they started coming up with other cycling terms describing the road going upwards - and they were still coming up with new ones 10 minutes later

cycling seems to have a lot of words for hills!

plus the rude ones


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## ebikeerwidnes (30 Jun 2022)

A hill is the point where there is no wind but I start looking for another gear

or increase the power assistance if I'm feeling lazy


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## Venod (30 Jun 2022)

Yesterdays turbo ride, now that's a hill.


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## vickster (30 Jun 2022)

Peter Salt said:


> The one I found was in California so maybe got the wrong bump? Pretty sure Hawaii is full of mountains mate. Look up Mauna Kea for one.



That's a volcano, not a hill or mountain  

... mate


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## Supersuperleeds (30 Jun 2022)

If I look at it and go, "f**k."


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jun 2022)

In the fens, a hill is a bridge over water.


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## a.twiddler (30 Jun 2022)

When you are me, everything is a hill. Unless it's a headwind. If I actually have to get off and walk, that's a_ real_ hill. Fortunately I don't come across many_ real_ hills. After sweating up some minor interruption in the alleged flatness that is Cheshire I sometimes remonstrate with myself. That wasn't a_ real_ hill. That wasn't even a hill. It was a just a hillock, pillock. What would be called, when I lived in Wales, just a_ joking _hill. Goes to show that hills are relative. Perhaps I need to get out more.


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## cwskas (1 Jul 2022)

raindog said:


> I think we did this one two or three weeks ago.
> 
> It's a hill if you can freewheel going in the other direction. That's the only meaningful definition imo.
> 
> View attachment 211211



I like that definition!


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## fossyant (1 Jul 2022)

Supersuperleeds said:


> If I look at it and go, "f**k."



Correct.


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## CXRAndy (1 Jul 2022)

eddie coffin said:


> Ok, I know its a silly question so I'll explain. Only been cycling regularly for about a year and I live near on the Fylde coast (nr Blackpool) and its like cycling on a billiard table round here. As I got fitter, slimmer and quicker I've started venturing further away, to the Trough of Bowland mainly where its more of a challenge. Theres been a few climbs that while I've got up them they have been a struggle. One going north from Clitheroe and one going south out of Lancaster. What I'm wondering is would most cyclists regard these as a climb or am I just deluding myself?



Yes they're all hills. But your own definition will change as you climb bigger, steeper hills. 

I now class all hills in the UK, small. That's not to diminish the effort to get up them, but I've cycled up some monster mountains. 

Then you realise the difference


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## harlechjoe (1 Jul 2022)

There are times that I find cycling into a strong headwind is just as strenuous as a hill climb and tend to rate hills according to the effort needed to ride up them. Sometimes a very long gentle climb can be as taxing as a short sharp climb and the effort needed depends on fitness,weight, the type of bike and gearing being used. My bike is made for touring so isn't as fast or as light as a road bike. With loaded panniers my level of fitness and effort makes:

Gradients up to 6% easy. 
Climbing between 7% and 10% involves a bit of effort.
I can manage 10% to 15% gradients for short distances.
Anything over 15% is beyond my ability.
I love the Forest of Bowland - enjoy your cycling !


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## dave r (1 Jul 2022)

If it involves me changing down or getting out of the saddle, or both its a hill, if I can freewheel when I'm going down it then its a hill.


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## FrothNinja (1 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> That's a volcano, not a hill or mountain
> 
> ... mate



A volcano over 2000ft is still a mountain - otherwise most of the Great Dividing Range wouldn't count


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## vickster (1 Jul 2022)

FrothNinja said:


> A volcano over 2000ft is still a mountain - otherwise most of the Great Dividing Range wouldn't count



Never heard of it I’m afraid


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## FrothNinja (1 Jul 2022)

Wiki says - *A hill is a landform that extends above the surrounding terrain.*
I think the oft stated above is a perfect definition:- "if you can freewheel when you're going down it then its a hill"
One person's hill is another's speedbump, in the long term what others think doesn't amount to a hill of beans.


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## FrothNinja (1 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Never heard of it I’m afraid


Divides most of Australia from it's eastern seaboard. It's a real mishmash of types of mountains, some sedimentary and uplifted, others volcanic and intrusive.


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## a.twiddler (1 Jul 2022)

FrothNinja said:


> Wiki says - *A hill is a landform that extends above the surrounding terrain.*
> I think the oft stated above is a perfect definition:- "if you can freewheel when you're going down it then its a hill"
> One person's hill is another's speedbump, in the long term what others think doesn't amount to a hill of beans.



How many beans do you need before it's a hill?


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## Supersuperleeds (1 Jul 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> How many beans do you need before it's a hill?



In the Fens 1

Midlands 2

Yorkshire / Cornwall 3

Alps 4


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## a.twiddler (1 Jul 2022)

Someone will probably be along in a minute to say that their beans are bigger (Yorkshire?).


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## Milzy (1 Jul 2022)

In Yorkshire there’s some good hills but we don’t class half of them as hills. I’m doing the Struggle moores course tomorrow and I know there’s at least one real hill called Rosdale chimney bank starting at 90 miles.


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## neil_merseyside (1 Jul 2022)

Don't forget any hill (any definition of) will hurt when you do it imitially, even repeatedly and over a long time, perhaps even forever! BUT you'll find your times up it will always be improving, hopefully to the point it is no longer a hill and simply an undulation/rise/gradient/whatever term ride leaders use to hide ouchy bits.


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## teeonethousand (1 Jul 2022)

Milzy said:


> In Yorkshire there’s some good hills but we don’t class half of them as hills. I’m doing the Struggle moores course tomorrow and I know there’s at least one real hill called Rosdale chimney bank starting at 90 miles.



Rosedale Chimney bank….now THAT is a hill. Good luck


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## MontyVeda (1 Jul 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> In the fens, a hill is a bridge over water.



pretty much same on the Fylde coast where the OP is from... and it's still the same, even after 11 years


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## FrothNinja (1 Jul 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> How many beans do you need before it's a hill?



A tricky question, the internal application of beans and emissions thereafter, if properly funnelled, can help overcome the challenges of external vertically mounded beans, even butter and broad ones


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## dave r (1 Jul 2022)

FrothNinja said:


> A tricky question, the internal application of beans and emissions thereafter, if properly funnelled, can help overcome the challenges of external vertically mounded beans, even butter and broad ones



If I eat excessive quantities of beans I'm likely to get the Environmental health people knocking on my door.


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## Juan Kog (1 Jul 2022)

dave r said:


> If I eat excessive quantities of beans I'm likely to get the Environmental health people knocking on my door.


Dave why not combine beans and Brussel sprouts , there wouldn’t be a door left to knock on.


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Jul 2022)

Juan Kog said:


> Dave why not combine beans and Brussel sprouts , there wouldn’t be a door left to knock on.



I only told you to blow the bloody door off.


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## Chislenko (1 Jul 2022)

Damon.


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## DCBassman (2 Jul 2022)

Here in Devon, everything is hill.
My longer rides are also the flattest I can arrange, into Plymouth and back along NCN27. Still gives more than 2200ft of gain!
I do not pretend to be a climber, although my latest bike has some seriously low gears, so we'll see if that helps...


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## Venod (2 Jul 2022)

Just checked my Strava stats for the year so far, 47ft climbed per mile, so I must have gone up a few hills.


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## mustang1 (2 Jul 2022)

A zen master would say it is not a climb unless you are struggling on it.


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## freiston (2 Jul 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> In the fens, a hill is a bridge over water.


You beat me to it! iirc, in my home town, there were some traffic lights at the foot of a bridge on the driving test route. If the lights were red, it counted as your hill start when they changed and you pulled off; if they were on green and you didn't stop, then you didn't have to do the hill start.

Otherwise, this is a fenland hill (note the heights above sea level that appear here and there):






Edit: - and this is what it looks like from a nearby road, across the field:


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## a.twiddler (2 Jul 2022)

From that map, there must be the question, "What is a contour line? I haven't seen one of those before."


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## freiston (2 Jul 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> From that map, there must be the question, "What is a contour line? I haven't seen one of those before."



I have an old OS 1:50,000 sheet number 131- from which the above extract comes from with no contour lines at all on the entire sheet (so about 24mile x 24mile - of which about a third of is sea) but I have a later edition that does have a few - but I think I'm right in saying they are all 0m. The marked heights of 2, 3 and 4 metres tend to be on the raised banks.


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## HLaB (2 Jul 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> In the fens, a hill is a bridge over water.


The dictionary says: 


> a naturally raised area of land, not as high or craggy as a mountain.


which pretty much rules out most things in the Fens, Cateyes included (my classic definition of a hill in the Fens)


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Jul 2022)

HLaB said:


> The dictionary says:
> 
> which pretty much rules out most things in the Fens, Cateyes included (my classic definition of a hill in the Fens)



There is a mountain rescue team in Pidley


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## HLaB (2 Jul 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> There is a mountain rescue team in Pidley



Yip, that one always cracks me up 👍


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## Ming the Merciless (2 Jul 2022)

HLaB said:


> The dictionary says:
> 
> which pretty much rules out most things in the Fens, Cateyes included (my classic definition of a hill in the Fens)



Going back to difference between a mountain and a hill. My definition is a mountain you can fall off in the summer, where as to fall off a hill it needs to be in winter conditions.


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## freiston (2 Jul 2022)

This is my home ground nowadays - I consider it to be hilly. Google Earth reports my gpx files as approximately 75 feet per mile ascent/descent per mile.







Definitions/demarcation of hill/mountain aside, I reckon it is more useful to say whether a ride is hilly or not by the ascent (& descent) by distance - and that doesn't give a comprehensive picture - up/down changing every 200 yards is different to a steady up and then down over a mile.


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## Sharky (3 Jul 2022)

Born in Lancashire and now Kent, I notice the difference. You can ride for miles on the plains of Lancashire and is fairly flat, but if you want the hills, you can easily ride into North Wales or the Peak district where they are some real challenges. There are a few hills, which I still remember - The Cat & Fiddle, Billenge Bump, Frodsham Hill - all very challenging.

Kent however has no "mountains", but you can't ride for more than half a mile without going up or down. Living on the Northdowns, there are some serious climbs. On my local training loops, some of these are demanding and make you drop to the biggest cog and then get out of the saddle. A five minute climb at 5mph is quite draining and there a few steeper ones (1:6's) that I always avoid.


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## ColinJ (3 Jul 2022)

freiston said:


> This is my home ground nowadays - I consider it to be hilly. Google Earth reports my gpx files as approximately 75 feet per mile ascent/descent per mile.
> 
> View attachment 651288
> 
> ...



I used to live in Coundon so that was where I used to head out to to escape Coventry. It is certainly 'lumpy' out there but the hills are not too bad. I did most of them on a singlespeed bike at one time or another (39/15 gear). A few of them were quite tough though, such as the road up from Corley rocks to the B4098.


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## dave r (3 Jul 2022)

ColinJ said:


> I used to live in Coundon so that was where I used to head out to to escape Coventry. It is certainly 'lumpy' out there but the hills are not too bad. I did most of them on a singlespeed bike at one time or another (39/15 gear). A few of them were quite tough though, such as the road up from Corley rocks to the B4098.



I know that one, it gives you a workout, especially on the fixed.


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