# Weight training



## robbo891 (22 Jun 2015)

does anyone have any training plans or actually do weight training? I'm talking about leg training only. I do upper body weights four times a week and going to do a leg day but wondered what pro cyclists would normally train in regards to legs! I want to train like a cyclist rather than a weightlifter!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (22 Jun 2015)

robbo891 said:


> does anyone have any training plans or actually do weight training? I'm talking about leg training only. I do upper body weights four times a week and going to do a leg day but wondered what pro cyclists would normally train in regards to legs!_* I want to train like a cyclist rather than a weightlifter!*_


Theres your clue.


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## robbo891 (22 Jun 2015)

Lol thanks. I know there's stuff online and I could google that but I wanted to discuss training plans with people on here and hear about recommendations etc


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## Drago (22 Jun 2015)

Can't help, I train like a weight lifter. I am sure it gives an advantage on the one hand, which is then more than completely offset on the other by the extra 25kg of mass I carry. That's the price I pay for not wanting to be a scrawny runt.


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## Bazzer (22 Jun 2015)

robbo891 said:


> Lol thanks. I know there's stuff online and I could google that but I wanted to discuss training plans with people on here and hear about recommendations etc



British Cycling publish training plans.https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge
Don't recall anything about weight training last time I looked, You train for for the *riding* you want to do.


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## vickster (22 Jun 2015)

I guess making sure all the muscles in your legs work properly on and off the bike work properly. It's not just about quads, but also calves, glutes, hamstrings. Core is crucial too so get training that, Pilates for example. Don't forget stretching and foam rolling of all the leg muscles too

I have big quads but nothing else works well (I also have one big calf but one skinny one after an accident). All of this is very bad for my knees, shoulders and back 

One thing, you don't see pro cyclists with a big upper body muscles so if cycling is key, get out of the gym and ride your bike


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## Roadrider48 (22 Jun 2015)

Check out Robert Förstermann on YouTube. His legs are phenomenal! 
He is a track cyclist though.


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## Citius (22 Jun 2015)

robbo891 said:


> does anyone have any training plans or actually do weight training? I'm talking about leg training only. I do upper body weights four times a week and going to do a leg day but wondered what pro cyclists would normally train in regards to legs! I want to train like a cyclist rather than a weightlifter!



Other than some light conditioning work (which may or may not be beneficial), there is little point in any gym work which focuses on increasing leg muscle strength. Endurance cycling is an aerobic sport, so if you want to be a better (faster, fitter) cyclist, then train on the bike.


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## nickyboy (22 Jun 2015)

I thought I'd find @Citius and @T.M.H.N.E.T here!

If you ask a pro cyclist what weight training he does he will do some core stability exercises (which actually don't need anything more than your body's weight as resistance) and that's all. Don't get confused by the weight training that track sprinters do. This weight training is to maximise their explosive power. Explosive power is useless to all cyclists except pure sprinters

If you want to be a faster cyclist (other than as a pure sprinter) getting rid of muscle mass is the way to go, not adding to it. That and stressing your cardiovascular system in the correct way to maximise your fitness


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## robbo891 (23 Jun 2015)

Some nice suggestions here and will check them out! I'm thinking just doing a good general leg plan covering all the angles but not going crazy daft! 

i do core work with fat burners, ab blasts and incorporate it into my routine. Pilates left me in bits though regarding my back so I've sacked that off. I also play 5aside and cycle a lot so there is some legwork in there but I just want to make them stronger. 

I didn't think training on the bike would be enough but if so happy days!!!


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## Citius (23 Jun 2015)

Feel free to make your legs stronger if you want - but it really won't offer any benefit from a cycling perspective..


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## jnrmczip (23 Jun 2015)

You could lift low weight high reps for endurance don't have to o er do it


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## Citius (23 Jun 2015)

jnrmczip said:


> You could lift low weight high reps for endurance don't have to o er do it



Or he could ride his bike, for the same effect..


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## jnrmczip (23 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> Or he could ride his bike, for the same effect..


Indeed he could but if it's not convenient to ride for any reason and op wants to hit the gym then what I suggested would be fine. 
I cycle and attend the gym still getting faster. Not going to the gym to build up and look like a pit bull just maintain muscle strength and endurance and tone up a little no harm with that.


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## jnrmczip (23 Jun 2015)

P's op may have a busy life and not be able to rode every day but may be able to spare 45 mins or so in the gym


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## Citius (23 Jun 2015)

Unless he actually lives next door to a gym (so therefore doesn't have to spend time driving/walking/getting the bus there, etc), then I'm gonna disagree with that. His 45 minutes would actually be better spent riding hard on his bike, or a turbo.


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## nickyboy (23 Jun 2015)

Citius said:


> Feel free to make your legs stronger if you want - but it really won't offer any benefit from a cycling perspective..



The opposite will be true. Making legs stronger = increase muscle mass = become heavier = become slower endurance cyclist


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## cyberknight (23 Jun 2015)

I have stopped doing strength exercises besides a bit of core the last month due to work commitments ( 11 hour shifts ) and i lost may be 5 llbs of 150 lbs and i have found riding easier and seem to fly up hills .


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## Tin Pot (23 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> Can't help, I train like a weight lifter. I am sure it gives an advantage on the one hand, which is then more than completely offset on the other by the extra 25kg of mass I carry. That's the price I pay for not wanting to be a scrawny runt.



What?

Surely everyone here longs for the legendary Arms of Froome.


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## Drago (23 Jun 2015)

I'd rather cycle at walking pace for the rest of my life than have wrists as big as my biceps.


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## Citius (23 Jun 2015)

To paraphrase a well-known cycling quote - "it's not about the arms"


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## Drago (24 Jun 2015)

It is for th the 23 hours a day that I'm not on the bike. Looking like a weedy wimp does nothing for your chances of a "sand in the face" experience. Peace through superior firepower. I've got a life outside cycling and looking like a Cambodian isn't a part of it.


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## screenman (24 Jun 2015)

I replaced weights with swimming, seems to work well for me in terms of overall fitness.


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## Citius (24 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> It is for th the 23 hours a day that I'm not on the bike. Looking like a weedy wimp does nothing for your chances of a "sand in the face" experience. Peace through superior firepower. I've got a life outside cycling and looking like a Cambodian isn't a part of it.



That's great - but the OP's question was about cycling. There are loads of bodybuilding forums on the internet where beefy fellas can talk about being generally awesome.


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## cyberknight (24 Jun 2015)

Drago said:


> I'd rather cycle at walking pace for the rest of my life than have wrists as big as my biceps.


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## robbo891 (30 Jun 2015)

lmao at some of these posts. each to their own and if you enjoy it hey ho! I do like suns out guns out though ; )

anyway back to the training. i have opted for pyramid training keeping the weight at the lower end of things concentrating on good form and higher reps!!
it can only make them a little more stronger if anything!


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## Citius (30 Jun 2015)

That's great - so despite the complete lack of support for leg/strength training on this thread, you're gonna do it anyway?


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## robbo891 (1 Jul 2015)

yeah your all wrong haha

nah seriously though I do have other enjoyments regarding fitness training, playing 5aside, weight lifting, metafit etc. I just want to train the legs a little more too but just wondered if there was any specific routines people are doing.


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## robbo891 (1 Jul 2015)

and cycling shortens the hamstrings!


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## cyberknight (1 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> and cycling shortens the hamstrings!


Stretch them


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## ayceejay (1 Jul 2015)

_and cycling shortens the hamstrings!_
So does most of the leg work you do in the gym and sitting in front of a computer. What will effect your performance on the bike is flexibility and just like running the major inhibitor of flexibility is tight hamstrings. Cycling is quadriceps heavy so if you want to compensate for this with gym work then concentrate on your hamstrings.


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## Citius (1 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> yeah your all wrong haha
> 
> nah seriously though I do have other enjoyments regarding fitness training, playing 5aside, weight lifting, metafit etc. I just want to train the legs a little more too but just wondered if there was any specific routines people are doing.



Just to be clear, assuming your original (cycle related) question still stands - if you are looking for a cycling performance benefit from leg/strength work in the gym, then there won't be one. If you want to push leg weights for other reasons, then carry on.


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## ayceejay (1 Jul 2015)

Not true


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## Citius (1 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> Not true



What isn't?


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## ayceejay (1 Jul 2015)

if you are looking for a cycling performance benefit from leg/strength work in the gym, then there won't be one.


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## Citius (1 Jul 2015)

Explain how it isn't true? Leaving aside the relative minority sport of track sprinting, for which weights do seem to be favoured..


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## robbo891 (2 Jul 2015)

My mate who manages a gym told me of course there is gains to be made from doing weight training and transferring this to your bike (not mega heavy lifting). Your building muscle making them stronger, fitter and this is transferred through the pedals! Your legs will be more flexible too.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Core strength, http://www.coach-hughes.com/resources/corestrength1.html


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## Drago (2 Jul 2015)

There are gains to be made. Increased circulation and the muscles increased capacity to exploit oxygen bring benefits in both strength and stamina, which can be tweaked with different training regimes. The problem is, as I have found, is that the increased mass you're lugging around more or less exactly offsets the gains, although to be fair I do carry a lot of extra mass on my arms, chest and shoulders with does little on the bike except weigh a lot.

No free lunch I'm afraid, which is probably why serious weight work isn't high on the training plans of most pro riders.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> My mate who manages a gym told me of course there is gains to be made from doing weight training and transferring this to your bike (not mega heavy lifting). Your building muscle making them stronger, fitter and this is transferred through the pedals! Your legs will be more flexible too.



On the issue of strength, your mate is quite simply wrong. Sorry. Endurance cycling is not limited by strength, but by aerobic and cardiovascular fitness. Anyone who tells you that stronger legs will make you a better endurance cyclist simply doesn't know what they are talking about.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> On the issue of strength, your mate is quite simply wrong. Sorry. Endurance cycling is not limited by strength, but by aerobic and cardiovascular fitness. Anyone who tells you that stronger legs will make you a better endurance cyclist simply doesn't know what they are talking about.


So you are saying that no amount nor style of strength training will improve someone's cycling at all?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> So you are saying that no amount nor style of strength training will improve someone's cycling at all?



Yes, assuming you already have two functional legs with nominal strength.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Yes, assuming you already have two functional legs with nominal strength.


Then I really do not think you know what you are talking about, or are you saying all the other articles, pro team trainers and amateur trainers are wrong? http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/training/strong-to-the-core-31235


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (2 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> My mate who manages a gym told me of course there is gains to be made from doing weight training and transferring this to your bike (not mega heavy lifting). Your building muscle making them stronger, fitter and this is transferred through the pedals! Your legs will be more flexible too.


He would say that wouldn't he?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> Then I really do not think you know what you are talking about, or are you saying all the other articles, pro team trainers and amateur trainers are wrong? http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/fitness/training/strong-to-the-core-31235



Sorry, this discussion is about leg strength, not core strength. I'm sure core strength has its benefits, but that's not what we're talking about here.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Sorry, this discussion is about leg strength, not core strength. I'm sure core strength has its benefits, but that's not what we're talking about here.


So rather than taking the piss out of everyone on the thread, why didn't you just answer him with your font of knowledge. Or answered my question correctly, I didn't mention anywhere in my question leg strength yet you still waded in with a misleading and categorical no.

I would also suggest that higher rep leg work, involving Squats, lunges and leg presses would help cycling, after all if we are both pedalling at 90rpm but have different power outputs one would be able to push a higher gear, where do you think the higher power outputs comes from?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> So rather than taking the mickey out of everyone on the thread, why didn't you just answer him with your font of knowledge. Or answered my question correctly, I didn't mention anywhere in my question leg strength yet you still waded in with a misleading and categorical no.
> 
> I would also suggest that higher rep leg work, involving Squats, lunges and leg presses would help cycling, after all if we are both pedalling at 90rpm but have different power outputs one would be able to push a higher gear, where do you think the higher power comes from?



I've no idea what you're talking about - the OP in his first post was quite clear in his definition - maybe have a read of it. I've been quite clear in all of my answers that my comments relate to leg strength, just in case anyone decides to misconstrue it - as you seem to have successfully done.

On your second point - why do you think having stronger legs will give you a greater power output? Higher power comes from pushing harder on the pedals obviously. But given the relatively low forces involved, the level of strength required to do that is already well within most people's capacity. Even my frail old gran has the required level of strength. It really is very low.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> I've no idea what you're talking about - the OP in his first post was quite clear in his definition - maybe have a read of it. I've been quite clear in all of my answers that my comments relate to leg strength, just in case anyone decides to misconstrue it - as you seem to have successfully done.
> 
> On your second point - why do you think having stronger legs will give you a greater power output? Higher power comes from pushing harder on the pedals obviously. But given the relatively low forces involved, the level of strength required to do that is already well within most people's capacity. Even my frail old gran has the required level of strength. It really is very low.


the OP asked if there was any leg exercises which clearly there are, and others that would improve someone's cycling, yet you keep telling everyone there isn't. I am not an trained expert but I do read accredited trainers training suggestions all of which suggest some leg work as well as core training, and of course actually riding a bike. He did say he didn't want to train in the Gym like a weightlifter but like a cyclist. You accepted core training helps, so why didn't just suggest that?

On legs maybe you could shoot this trainer down in flames, lots of leg work in this training
http://www.cyclesportcoaching.com/Files/CyclingSpecificStrengthTraining.pdf


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> the OP asked if there was any leg exercises which clearly there are, and others that would improve someone's cycling, yet you keep telling everyone there isn't. I am not an trained expert but I do read accredited trainers training suggestions all of which suggest some leg work as well as core training, and of course actually riding a bike. He did say he didn't want to train in the Gym like a weightlifter but like a cyclist. You accepted core training helps, so why didn't just suggest that?
> 
> On legs maybe you could shoot this trainer down in flames, lots of leg work in this training
> http://www.cyclesportcoaching.com/Files/CyclingSpecificStrengthTraining.pdf



The legs are not part of the 'core'. Agreed there are lots of exercises you can do in the gym. But none of them will, in themselves, improve your cycling performance. Lots of cyclists use gyms for all kinds of reasons, but not, generally, to improve their leg strength with a view to going faster on a bike.

Posting a link to someone's opinion doesn't really help. Post links to some science. The guy in your link is just wrong - none of that is supported by the available studies. (I'm also a coach by the way). What I would suggest though, is doing a search on the leg strength topic. It has been discussed to death on here and other forums many, many times. All the info you need will be in those old threads.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> The legs are not part of the 'core'. Agreed there are lots of exercises you can do in the gym. But none of them will, in themselves, improve your cycling performance. Lots of cyclists use gyms for all kinds of reasons, but not, generally, to improve their leg strength with a view to going faster on a bike.
> 
> Posting a link to someone's opinion doesn't really help. Post links to some science. The guy in your link is just wrong. (I'm also a coach by the way).


So an accredited cycling coach is wrong and you are right? I could pull up loads of articles on improving power output through improving leg and hip strength inline with improving cardiovascular. The fact you say you are a coach makes you initial responses even worse, as you could have told him how to train like a cyclist and not a weightlifter in your very first response.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> So an accredited cycling coach is wrong and you are right?



Overall, his opinions on leg strength improving performance are not supported by the available scientific evidence. That's what I'm saying.



Andrew_P said:


> I could pull up loads of articles on improving power output through improving leg and hip strength inline with improving cardiovascular.



Feel free to do that. Don't give me articles and opinions though. Give me facts and evidence.



Andrew_P said:


> The fact you say you are a coach makes you initial responses even worse, as you could have told him how to train like a cyclist and not a weightlifter in your very first response.



That's pretty much what I did say. As I recall, I told him to ride his bike.


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## adscrim (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Overall, his opinions on leg strength improving performance are not supported by the available scientific evidence. That's what I'm saying.


 I don't think that's correct. How much of this scientific evidence is based on recreational cyclists supplementing the limit amount of time they can spend on a bike with fairly general conditioning type weight training?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

adscrim said:


> I don't think that's correct. How much of this scientific evidence is based on recreational cyclists supplementing the limit amount of time they can spend on a bike with fairly general conditioning type weight training?



Not sure what you're saying, sorry. The guy is advocating leg strength training as a way of improving cycling performance. The evidence available for that is at best equivocal.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Overall, his opinions on leg strength improving performance are not supported by the available scientific evidence. That's what I'm saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So where are your science based facts that counter the vast majority of real life expert opinion?


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## Dogtrousers (2 Jul 2015)

Are there any bum-toughening exercises you can do in the gym? That would be a good idea.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

It didn't take much looking for, is this science enough for you? Using Half

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855311


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

In 2010, Sunde et. al. studied the effect of maximal strength training on cycling economy, work efficiency, and time to exhaustion between a strength training group and an endurance group. The strength group performed half squats three times per week to supplement endurance training over an eight-week period. *The strength training group exhibited significant improvements in rate of force development (16.7%), cycling economy (4.8%), work efficiency (4.7%), and time to exhaustion at maximum aerobic power (17.2%).* The endurance group showed a small increase in work efficiency (1.4%), but the other factors were not improved.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> It didn't take much looking for, is this science enough for you? Using Half
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855311



That just proves that a group who did more training did better than a group who did less training. There's loads like that. Believe me, I'm aware of all those studies - even the ones you are looking for right now. There are none out there which unequivocally show that strength training has any benefit.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

I lifted this from another forum. It's a few years old now, but still a pretty good summary of where the debate currently is, I think.



> Physiologically & physically speaking:
> 
> Strength is the maximal force generating ability of a muscle or group of muscles.
> By definition it occurs at zero velocity. However, practically speaking and in the context of the primary muscles involved in cycling, we can define strength as the maximal mass lifted in a one rep free standing squat.
> ...


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

No they did same training on the bike but one group added strength training not on the bike, which made significant gains in all area a general cyclist would like to see gains which is what this thread is all about.

You subsequent post has no science to back it up, just an opinion. I have given you a controlled scientific study and you have given me a forum post, by someone unknown.


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## barachus (2 Jul 2015)

Just lift the weights, you might be a little slower, but you will certainly look better when you get off the bike


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> No they did same training on the bike but one group added strength training not on the bike, which made significant gains in all area a general cyclist would like to see gains which is what this thread is all about.



No you're missing my point. One group did 'x' training - the other group did 'x+1'. Who is to say that the control group would not have seen even higher performance gains, had they put in the equivalent extra amount of training (on the bike) that the intervention group did?



Andrew_P said:


> You subsequent post has no science to back it up, just an opinion. I have given you a controlled scientific study and you have given me a forum post, by someone unknown.



The quote I posted is a summary of the scientific and biological facts governing muscle performance. Feel free to disprove those facts if you wish.


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## ayceejay (2 Jul 2015)

A couple of myths that need clarifying: weight training does not necessarily lead to added bulk and the belief that, as cycling is primarily about the downward force created by the quadriceps these are the only leg muscles involved (see above). The OP was not asking specifically about strength training so if we can expand the question to how to use weights to improve performance we can include flexibility and attention to smaller muscles that will help to avoid injury, muscles that assist the primary movers but do not get a work out from cycling. The movement described above (squats) strengthens the quads that straighten the leg and is the major movement in cycling which is why sprinters concentrate on doing them for their standing start. But, and this can be contentious, there is more to turning a pedal than the downward thrust and since the legs get a quad overload from cycling work elsewhere can be beneficial.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Training with weights that does not increase strength is - by definition - not strength training. I've always said - if the OP wants to work his legs in the gym, then fine - but it won't make him any faster. It might even make him slower, as already pointed out.


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## ayceejay (2 Jul 2015)

My last stab at this - you are assuming that the ONLY reason anyone would train with weights is to increase strength so as to go faster on the bike and I am saying that there are other benefits not related to that paradigm and these would enhance performance i.e. _the manner in which or the efficiency with which something reacts or fulfills its intended purpose._


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Let's remind ourselves of the OP's question:



robbo891 said:


> does anyone have any training plans or actually do weight training? I'm talking about leg training only. I do upper body weights four times a week and going to do a leg day but wondered what pro cyclists would normally train in regards to legs! I want to train like a cyclist rather than a weightlifter!



So he's asking - in his words - about 'leg training only' and (also in his words) about 'training like a cyclist'. My contention is that a cyclist does not (or should not) need to train their legs with weights. I am defining 'training' as exercise intended to bring about a specific improvement. I'm sure other definitions are available.



ayceejay said:


> My last stab at this - you are assuming that the ONLY reason anyone would train with weights is to increase strength so as to go faster on the bike and I am saying that there are other benefits not related to that paradigm and these would enhance performance i.e. _the manner in which or the efficiency with which something reacts or fulfills its intended purpose._



Can you give me an example?


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## jowwy (2 Jul 2015)




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## ayceejay (2 Jul 2015)

Being resistant to injury due to flexibility and balance would enhance performance.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> Being resistant to injury due to flexibility and balance would enhance performance.



No it wouldn't - it would just mean you 'might' be more resistant to injury, nothing more. It would not give you a performance benefit in the sense that it would not make you faster. Being resistant to injury is not going to win you a 2-up sprint against another guy who happens to have done more training. 

It's a bit like saying wearing a helmet might improve performance, as it might prevent a head injury if you crash - which it probably would, but that's not the point - you don't wear a helmet as a performance enhancing tool, unless it's a pointy hat for TTs. And at that point, it pretty much ceases to function as a safety device anyway.

Anecdotally, I have never had a leg injury through cycling, and I have never been to the gym either - so any preventative measures in the gym that I might have undertaken would have been a total waste of time. If the OP wants to talk about preventative exercise, then that's a whole new debate. But until then let's stick to the issue.


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## adscrim (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> No it wouldn't - it would just mean you 'might' be more resistant to injury, nothing more. It would not give you a performance benefit in the sense that it would not make you faster. Being resistant to injury is not going to win you a 2-up sprint against another guy who happens to have done more training.


 Weight training probably would help in winning a 2-up sprint.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

adscrim said:


> Weight training probably would help in winning a 2-up sprint.



At the end of a 70 mile road race - how? I assume that's what you meant, because you already know we aren't talking about track sprinting.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citrus ignores the scientific research he demanded that was specifically aimed at answering the question, or rather than ignore suggests that the same improvements could have been made if they had spent the extra time on the bike. But no specifics on how that time should be spent other than riding. I would assume that if cycle trainers including those at professional level include some leg weight training that there is a benefit.

One of the research papers went on to mention the is benefit in a sprint finish at the end of a long distance race


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## ayceejay (2 Jul 2015)

In spite of what I said earlier you still insist that the only performance benefit that can ever be achieved is going faster and this is where we part ways. Riding without pain in calves hips knees (and this is just the legs) would be an immense improvement for the many who post here with problems in that area. Cycling shortens the hamstrings and more cycling will shorten them more and without any compensatory measures this will invariably lead to injury, stretching and weight training specifically for the hamstring muscles _might _(happy?) make a difference. At this point I would like to say that I believe any activity that uses limited muscle groups without at least some attention to the body as a whole is heading for trouble.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

*In conclusion:*

Strength training during the preparation phase can improve performance more than just endurance training.
Maintenance strength training during the competition phase can improve performance further whilst endurance training does not.
Strength training can improve time trial performance and also longer distance oxygen economy.
Strength training can improve the power output in a sprint finish at the end of a longer distance.
There is benefit in performing a mixture of explosive and high intensity training.
As usual, if you are not used to resistance training, do start gently and seek some professional advice before starting. 
Taken From that quotes various scientific research http://breakingmuscle.com/cycling/why-serious-cyclists-should-consider-strength-training


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> Citrus ignores the scientific research he demanded that was specifically aimed at answering the question, or rather than ignore suggests that the same improvements could have been made if they had spent the extra time on the bike. But no specifics on how that time should be spent other than riding. I would assume that if cycle trainers including those at professional level include some leg weight training that there is a benefit.
> 
> One of the research papers went on to mention the is benefit in a sprint finish at the end of a long distance race



I don't ignore it - I know it's there. But it is not conclusive, because the comparisons are not valid, as I pointed out earlier. The truth is the vast majority of pro coaches do not advocate leg strength training for endurance cycling. You seem to have found one American coach who does advocate it. That is not evidence that it works, it is only evidence that he advocates it. His rationale is unfounded, because studies he relies on as references as flawed. You only have to read a few of them objectively to understand that.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> *In conclusion:*
> 
> Strength training during the preparation phase can improve performance more than just endurance training.
> Maintenance strength training during the competition phase can improve performance further whilst endurance training does not.
> ...



All those referenced studies have produced equivocal results, like I said. Show me one study that proves - unequivocally - that leg strength training offers a performance benefit.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> In spite of what I said earlier you still insist that the only performance benefit that can ever be achieved is going faster and this is where we part ways. Riding without pain in calves hips knees (and this is just the legs) would be an immense improvement for the many who post here with problems in that area. Cycling shortens the hamstrings and more cycling will shorten them more and without any compensatory measures this will invariably lead to injury, stretching and weight training specifically for the hamstring muscles _might _(happy?) make a difference. At this point I would like to say that I believe any activity that uses limited muscle groups without at least some attention to the body as a whole is heading for trouble.



Like I said before, if you have some kind of diagnosed deficiency, then weights could be beneficial. But - like I said before - for those with nominal leg function and with no diagnosed weakness or deficiencies, the benefits are unfounded.


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## Drago (2 Jul 2015)

Perhaps we could ask join the same question from the opposite perspective - how do you think weaker legs improves cycling performance?


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## ayceejay (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Like I said before, if you have some kind of diagnosed deficiency, then weights could be beneficial. But - like I said before - for those with nominal leg function and with no diagnosed weakness or deficiencies, the benefits are unfounded.



I think it is safe to say that _any activity that uses limited muscle groups without at least some attention to the body as a whole is heading for trouble _as I do above and knowing this it is wise to work on prevention rather than wait for a deficiency to have you off the bike for a month or two surely?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Drago said:


> Perhaps we could ask join the same question from the opposite perspective - how do you think weaker legs improves cycling performance?



Weaker than what? Given that pedal forces when riding up Alpe d'Huez average no more than about 20kg per side, and that if we hop on one leg, we are already propelling upwards the entirety of our own body weight (which presumably weighs more than 20kg), then how much more - or less - strength do you think is required? I can already push 70kg while hopping on one leg - so why do I need more strength than that when trying to repeatedly push 20kg with each leg??


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## Drago (2 Jul 2015)

20kg per side, eh? Ok, if you Can produce, say, 40kg per side within the same time period, you can pull a higher gear and thus go faster. The maths that govern the relationship between power, time and output are very simple. 

Do you not understand the relationship between the 3, and how more power applied within the same time period produces more performance?


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

There are hundreds, nay 1000's of websites advocating leg training off the bike but to enhance ones experience of riding the bike, how many do you want me to post up? From Team GB Cycling to Training Peaks to Joe Bloggs "The Coach" off the internet.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Drago said:


> 20kg per side, eh? Ok, if you Can produce, say, 40kg per side within the same time period, you can pull a higher gear and thus go faster. The maths that govern the relationship between power, time and output are very simple.



But I can already push 70kg per side, so what is stopping me from doing that?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> There are hundreds, nay 1000's of websites advocating leg training off the bike but to enhance ones experience of riding the bike, how many do you want me to post up? From Team GB Cycling to Training Peaks to Joe Bloggs "The Coach" off the internet.



I'm not asking you to produce evidence of advocacy. I'm asking you to produce evidence of efficacy.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

You don't have to though, so why should anyone else? I would rather follow Training peaks or GB Cycling than a coach off of a cycling forum


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> You don't have to though, so why should anyone else? I would rather follow Training peaks or GB Cycling than a coach off of a cycling forum



I'm not offering you advice mate. I'm simply telling you that the evidence for performance improvement through leg strength training is not out there. If you think it is, then you have mis-read the studies. Riding fast/hard for a long time is all about sustainable power (hopefully we can agree on that). The typical leg forces required for endurance cycling are already well within the capability of most people with normal leg function. The hard bit is not pushing the pedals, it is pushing the pedals hard for 20 minutes, 40 minutes, one hour, three hours or six hours, depending on what you are doing. To do that requires aerobic fitness, not leg strength.


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## adscrim (2 Jul 2015)

British cycling and Team Sky physio Phil Burt
"Bradley does a lot of resistance training now and the build up to his world time trial win was part of that. All the evidence now is that endurance cyclists can benefit from a training programme – not big heavy weights, but some."


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

adscrim said:


> British cycling and Team Sky physio Phil Burt
> "Bradley does a lot of resistance training now and the build up to his world time trial win was part of that. All the evidence now is that endurance cyclists can benefit from a training programme – not big heavy weights, but some."



Like I said before - if it's not 'big heavy weights' then it's not strength training. Does Phil say what the intended outcome of his resistance programe was? As has been mentioned many times, there are lots of reasons to go to the gym. Was this work even on the legs, not the arms or core? The other question is "Do Bradley's legs really look that strong?"


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## ayceejay (2 Jul 2015)

I can remember this very same argument being espoused by yellow and black and dusty bin with the same inability to listen and the same propensity to segue a question about weight training into _big heavy weights_' and _strength training_ and the assumption that strength and muscle size are one and the same.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> I can remember this very same argument being espoused by yellow and black and dusty bin with the same inability to listen and the same propensity to segue a question about weight training into _big heavy weights_' and _strength training_ and the assumption that strength and muscle size are one and the same.


I had already made the yellow n black connection, forgot about Dusty Bin


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> I'm not offering you advice mate. I'm simply telling you that the evidence for performance improvement through leg strength training is not out there. If you think it is, then you have mis-read the studies. Riding fast/hard for a long time is all about sustainable power (hopefully we can agree on that). The typical leg forces required for endurance cycling are already well within the capability of most people with normal leg function. The hard bit is not pushing the pedals, it is pushing the pedals hard for 20 minutes, 40 minutes, one hour, three hours or six hours, depending on what you are doing. To do that requires aerobic fitness, not leg strength.


So the study on professional cyclist taken during the off and in season where half did their normal training the other half normal training with added strength training, you are suggesting the other half should have increased their cycling by the amount of hours the others spent doing weights?

So one ADDS anaerobic resistance training while the other INCREASES their aerobic and the net result would be they would both see the same improvements? How would the other half avoid overtraining their cardiovascular system?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> I can remember this very same argument being espoused by yellow and black and dusty bin with the same inability to listen and the same propensity to segue a question about weight training into _big heavy weights_' and _strength training_ and the assumption that strength and muscle size are one and the same.



And yet you still haven't managed to outline how weight training can improve cycling performance. If you can do that, I'm all ears.

By the way - I know the difference between muscle size and strength. Strength has been defined in this thread several times. Muscle size is - well, it's simply that.


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> So the study on professional cyclist taken during the off and in season where half did their normal training the other half normal training with added strength training, you are suggesting the other half should have increased their cycling by the amount of hours the others spent doing weights?



Correct. To be clear though, the study references 'competitive' cyclists, not 'professional'. There doesn't appear to be a definition of what 'competitive' means in this respect. But they are not identified as pros.



Andrew_P said:


> So one ADDS anaerobic resistance training while the other INCREASES their aerobic and the net result would be they would both see the same improvements? How would the other half avoid overtraining their cardiovascular system?



There's no evidence that would be the net result - that is just your assumption. And why do you think that would amount to over-training? You could say the same thing about the weights incurring muscle fatigue.

Anyway, here's a bit more reading for you:

This study - which shows that doing strength/weight training actually decreases cycling performance: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19826297

And this is a pretty good assessment of many of the studies which you have probably been searching for this afternoon: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern

If you're still not convinved though, all you have to do is explain why you think a rider's legs - which can already push several times their own bodyweight - need to be stronger in order to push 20kg/f per revolution up alpe d'huez.


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## Andrew_P (2 Jul 2015)

That post you lifted off a 2011 thread on Bike Radar forums, the thread you lifted it from it is clear who you are and you have not posted again on Bike Radar using that user name since 2012. Similar posts you made on upgrading wheels in 2011, similar to the ones made on this forum this week Do you not get bored of trolling cycling forums under different guises?


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## Citius (2 Jul 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> That post you lifted off a 2011 thread on Bike Radar forums, the thread you lifted it from it is clear who you are and you have not posted again on Bike Radar using that user name since 2012. Similar posts you made on upgrading wheels in 2011, similar to the ones made on this forum this week Do you not get bored of trolling cycling forums under different guises?



The thread I lifted that quote from - I have not posted on it. I know who you think I am - but I'm not. Not that it should even matter one way or the other. I'm just posting information here in response to a discussion, just like you are. If you can't deal or argue with it, that's your problem. I haven't been rude or abusive here - in fact I would say in this respect at least, the attitude problem belongs to you, not me.

It's commonplace on the internet for people with no argument to begin ad hominem attacks instead. Well done on falling into that tired old stereotype. I'm politely answering all your responses. It's a shame you can't do the same.


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## barachus (3 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> If you're still not convinved though, all you have to do is explain why you think a rider's legs - which can already push several times their own bodyweight - need to be stronger in order to push 20kg/f per revolution up alpe d'huez.


 I dont even pretend to know anything on this topic, but this comment has a ring of common sense

still, i am an advocate of gym work to look good, who cares about the marginal gains, no reason to look like a famine victim unless you are a proffessional cyclist and being paid to look like a ghost


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## poynedexter (4 Jul 2015)

heres MY take on this.

as a racing cyclist, i train to produce more power over longer periods. currently my 1 hr threshold power is 283 watts. if i ride above this level then i cant recycle lactate quick enough, and after a period, i get tired and struggle to hold power.
if i ride at 283 watts with 95-100 rpm i "feel" ok
if i ride at 283 watts with 80 rpm i "feel" as if i'm not strong enough to maintain this power
if i ride at 283 watts with 60 rpm, i'm burning matches very quickly and i'm gonna stop soon.

the question is how can i make this 283 watts into 300 and beyond.

step 1. build mitochondria. improve the size of your engine (heart stroke volume) (base train)
step 2. tune those mitchondria (intervals based on 283 watts at different rpms)
step 3. rest
step 4. eat lots of good food.

if you race or TT, you will soon find out that what you "think" is a lack of leg strength is really a lack of aerobic capacity. my last race i saw my max hr a few times and got dropped doing +100 rpm. never once did i feel weak


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## robbo891 (7 Jul 2015)

Wow! what can i say? My post has gone mental lol. I dont even know what to say anymore!
I dont compete so therefore dont see any huge need to improve. I cycle to enjoy it and im in good shape and I dont hang about either.
I now train my legs, call it strength training, fitness training, call it whatever you wish but im pushing iron simple as that lol.
Main reasons - to make them as good as the top half (vain yes, but im getting married on a beach)
and they need strengthening as recommended by my physio and need stretching and made more flexible as told by my gym instructor for shortened hamstrings. Job done as far as I am concerned. 

Citius I think your bonkers mate and have far to much spare time lol! Fair play though and your entitled to opinion! (all in good jest fella)


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## Citius (7 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> Citius I think your bonkers mate



So because I put forward a logical argument - a view shared by a majority of sports scientists, together with the information to support it - you think* I'm* bonkers? 



robbo891 said:


> I want to train like a cyclist rather than a weightlifter!



So you've obviously changed your mind since posting this?


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## robbo891 (7 Jul 2015)

seriously dude, after your logical argument (and very in depth it was) im passed caring tbh.


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## Andrew_P (7 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> seriously dude, after your logical argument (and very in depth it was) im passed caring tbh.


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## Citius (7 Jul 2015)

robbo891 said:


> seriously dude, after your logical argument (and very in depth it was) im passed caring tbh.



Apologies fella. If all you wanted was for people to agree with you, you should have mentioned it earlier.


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## crazyjoe101 (10 Jul 2015)

Cycling is my main sport, but I don't compete and going the fastest and furthest I possibly can is not the top of my list as a cyclist; that said, I do like the occasional long or fast ride and I like to improve little by little without being wrecked all the time due to training.
I have lifted weights in the past and have started again recently, I am very weak and I don't lift anything heavy, at the minute I'm just focusing on proper form before I add a little bit more weight until I stop at a comfortable amount. I'm lifting weight to gain a modest amount of strength and to aid fat loss; I do not expect that it will help me at all on the bike, in fact I will be limiting the amount I lift as I know the extra weight isn't going to help me.

Aside from whether or not training my legs with weights (all other factors the same) will help or hinder my performance when on the bike, I will not be doing it as the recovery time after training legs with weights long enough to stop me from doing any serious riding in that period. Assuming there is a benefit - it certainly would not outweigh the benefit to be had from the ride it replaces, and that for me is the key point in the whole argument this thread grew into. Pro cyclists have all the time in the world to train and improve. Most of us cycle as a hobby and if we're going to observe proper recovery, a leg training session is likely to replace a 'hard' bike ride, and I know which out of the two woud be more beneficial to my cycling performance. Sure, a specific type of weight training might give me some benefit, but not when it is replacing a bike ride.


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## scouserinlondon (27 Jul 2015)

I've been watching this thread with interest. After more than six months off the bike due to a new job and family commitments I had put on a fair bit of weight. I have never had much success with the gym where I'd done a mix of cardio and light weights. However recently I've been doing a more concerted programme of weight training. With increased weight and decreased reps and all that malarkey. Anyway. I've certainly increased the amount I can lift by quite some margin. And while I have lost a decent chunk of weight my body composition has changed quite dramatically with loads of belly and arse fat melting away (still more to go I just love beer!) and my legs have grown a fair bit. I'm about to get back on the bike after a year off and it's going to be really interesting to see how I do. I know my lung capacity will be the biggest blocker, as beyond long walks and running around with the kids I've done no serious cardio. But I wonder whether the improved power to weight ratio will have any impact whatsoever.

Probably not reading this.


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## crazyjoe101 (27 Jul 2015)

Well obviously it will help you a bit having some power in your legs but in quite a limited way. The exact muscles used in your weights excercises won't be the same as those used when cycling and vise verca. The main thing is that I doubt lifting helps over any sort of distance really, it probably only increases explosive power.


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## scouserinlondon (2 Aug 2015)

So I broke my duck and rode to work finally. And while I was knackered from a cardio point of view, the extra strength and weight loss did feel pretty good. I powered up brixton hill faster than I have for a long while. I can totally see that getting ripped at the gym just adds mass to be shifted. But in terms of explosive power, I've never felt stronger.


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## Citius (2 Aug 2015)

Nothing to do with the weight loss then?


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## ayceejay (2 Aug 2015)

_the extra strength and weight loss did feel pretty good_
writes scouser
_Nothing to do with the weight loss then?_
writes citius


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## Citius (2 Aug 2015)

ayceejay said:


> _the extra strength and weight loss did feel pretty good_
> writes scouser
> _Nothing to do with the weight loss then?_
> writes citius



Congrats sherlock. The point I'm making is that it is going to be very difficult to pin down which of those exercises has had the most (or indeed any) effect.

If I conducted a training regime which consisted of riding my bike and then eating a bag of donuts every day, perhaps I could ascribe my performance improvements to the donuts?


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## scouserinlondon (14 Aug 2015)

I don't know what it's to do with, but getting back on the bike, having lost some timber and been in the gym a bit felt pretty good. Given that this isn't a scientific test it would be futile to draw conclusions.


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## poynedexter (15 Aug 2015)

scouserinlondon said:


> So I broke my duck and rode to work finally. And while I was knackered from a cardio point of view, the extra strength and weight loss did feel pretty good. I powered up brixton hill faster than I have for a long while. I can totally see that getting ripped at the gym just adds mass to be shifted. But in terms of explosive power, I've never felt stronger.


 
knackered from a cardio point of view
explosive power never felt stronger

cycling is an endurance cardio sport, explosive power is handy over about a few meters. keep working on the first bit.


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## Andywinds (18 Sep 2015)

I read/watched I cannot remember which now as it was two days ago that Mark Cavendish started using weights in the gym to help improve his sprinting ability as others had caught him up on the aerodynamic front. Not sure if this was just leg training but he did say that gym/weights did help. 
Just from my experience on the MTB, I am pretty crap when it comes to climbing as my mates can usually overtake me, but when there are short steep climbs I can power past them. The trouble is they will always catch me up. So in the end it makes sense that for endurance if you can maintain some sort of speed on the flat and also climb then that is all you need.
I train weights in the gym because I have done so for over 20 years, but if I wanted to be a serious endurance rider and a coach said drop the weight training I would. But I am not an endurance rider, I'm not even a very good rider and I like training with weights. 

Going off topic slightly, I used to train in an Amateur boxing gym and the coach used to go bonkers if he caught the smaller guys using the weights as he would say that it slow them down, not sure if this is still the case, but modern day methods do involve more full body workouts eg TRX etc. I remember seeing a 9 stone fighter sparing spar with a real muscled 12 stone with less experience, the lighter boxer was quicker, stronger and was hitting harder, and all he did was hit the bag, skip and ultimately spared three times a week!


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## Citius (18 Sep 2015)

Andywinds said:


> I read/watched I cannot remember which now as it was two days ago that Mark Cavendish started using weights in the gym to help improve his sprinting ability as others had caught him up on the aerodynamic front. Not sure if this was just leg training but he did say that gym/weights did help.



There are a couple of interviews with Cav which can be found on the web, as I recall. In one he says he uses weights - in the other says he doesn't.


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## Andywinds (18 Sep 2015)

And that's the problem, the interest is sometimes seen as the oracle of all knowledge, when in reality it becomes a point of view and open to interpretation.

I was always advised that if I wanted to become a better mountain biker I should just ride my mountain bike. The pros started to post videos of gym training and now everyone is looking at joining the gym.



Citius said:


> There are a couple of interviews with Cav which can be found on the web, as I recall. In one he says he uses weights - in the other says he doesn't.


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## vickster (18 Sep 2015)

Do what floats your boat. Personally, I hate the gym and would rather ride my bikes. I'm not a pro athlete so I'd never base what I do on what they do, their goals are rather different. And they are paid to do things they may not enjoy, I would have to pay to join a gym and do things I don't enjoy. I've had gym memberships before but decided that the £500+ a year would be better spent on bikes


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## earlestownflya (18 Sep 2015)

i agree with citius,,you'll get strong legs just riding...and in the right area.big calves are'nt an advantage it's what's at the top that counts..just eat the right food...and do the stretches


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## huwsparky (18 Sep 2015)

It's not for the fun of it pro riders ride hundreds of miles per week when not racing.

Unless your doing 20k+ miles per year on the bike I think it's pretty safe to say the best training you could do is riding your bike if your soul aim is to improve on a bike.



This is of course my opinion.


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## poynedexter (18 Sep 2015)

i'd love to hear a report from a regular cyclist who adds weights to their routine, and measures their power figures over say a 4 month period to put a figure to how much benefit there is from weights.

by not using weights, but doing structured road and turbo work, i've added almost 40 watts to my sweet spot power, over about 5 months. helping to achieve this has been adding an extra rest day per week in, and eating more grub. what this has meant is that at 260 watts, my heart rate is 15 bpm lower than before. without lifting.

purely based on my own version of reality.


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## Drago (18 Sep 2015)

My heart rate dropped from the mid 60s to the low 50s after I started lifting. I'm not quite sure of the mechanism behind it, but I got the print of my annual work medical going back 2 decades and the correlation is exact.


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## symon_r (20 Sep 2015)

I started reading this thread as I have a similar question (I will struggle to get out on my bike over the winter as much as I'd like because of my working hours. I will be joining a gym and wondered if in addition to cardio work and fitness classes anyone had any suggested weight programs as I know that for me variety in my program is important).

Given the back and forth though I thought I would contribute an article that may be of interest. 

http://scholarsresearchlibrary.com/EJSES-vol1-iss3/EJSES-2012-1-3-90-102.pdf

It looks at highly trained cyclists (so not me) and determines that lower body strength training does give a benefit but identifying the physiological mechanism is beyond the scope of this study. It suggests that high loads with few repetitions are best - focussing on muscle memory rather than muscle size. It also points out that the benefits may be greatest where high intensity training isn't possible due to environmental factors.


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## Joshua Plumtree (20 Sep 2015)

You don't necessarily have to use weights to do 'strength' training. Why not train on a turbo where you're also getting the added benefit of maximising your time on a bike? 
Big geared intervals at a high cadence perhaps, or accelerating in a big gear from a standing start etc, etc.


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