# Clean that Chain!!!!



## superbadger (8 Sep 2011)

I am sooooo guilty...... Got my bike in Feb as i planned to do a Tour.... So i did lots of training and stuff before the trip and just kept on top of chain..... (as in...i cleared bit of gunk out and oiled it!!!). So lots of training and one-track mind for the trip.... I do the trip and all is well.. Bike was good and no problems. What i had done before the trip was reset my bike computer so as to keep an acurate record of my miles etc.... But the computer still records total milage since fitted... (the day i got the bike!)... So after a forum conversation the other day i thought 'oh oh!'... How many miles has bike done since Feb? And i havnt done a full chain clean??? Ermmmm! Its just short of 1900 miles! I had no idea i had done that many miles? So today i spent 2 hours giving my bike my undivided attention! Cleaning and scrubbing. It's loads better and i have redeemed myself .... Just!!!!!





What a bloody difference!!!!


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## PoweredByVeg (8 Sep 2011)

Bad man :-)


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## Pigo (8 Sep 2011)

Oh.....I've done around the 2200 mark but have yet to do mine - you've shamed me into it so there goes my Saturday morning!


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## PorkyPies (8 Sep 2011)

I clean my weekly, or whenever it gets rained on!


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## superbadger (8 Sep 2011)

Do it quick! Looked it all over and everything seems ok and fine.... But if i had done another tour with plenty of weight before winter? Well then i reckon it would be expensive!!!!! It took me 2hrs! Not coz i felt guilty and took extra time over every little bit? Took that long coz it was soooo bad!. i am doing it every 300 mile now as a rule . What do you all use to De-grease????


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## Theseus (8 Sep 2011)

Wipe it down with an old oily rag at least once a week, and after each wet ride. Takes seconds.


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## smokeysmoo (8 Sep 2011)

superbadger said:


> What do you all use to De-grease????



I use WURTH Brake & Clutch cleaner because I get it v.cheap form work! It's awesome stuff, just cuts through grease and grime like the proverbial hot knife through butter. It also evaporates cleanly with no residue.

I then re-lube everything with what ever lube I happen to be using at the time


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## fossyant (8 Sep 2011)

Just wipe the chain and sprockets with a rag on a regular basis. Old T shirts are ok.


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## superbadger (8 Sep 2011)

I used an old t-shirt 2day... havnt told the GF yet???? Oh sh*t she here......


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## Oxo (8 Sep 2011)

Done my duty this afternoon and rattled cleaned chain of her who must be obeyed.


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## ianrauk (8 Sep 2011)

Did you clean in between all the links with cotton buds? No? then it's not clean


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## slowmotion (8 Sep 2011)

Take the chain off the bike and put it in an empty mineral water bottle. Pour in about half a litre of Jizer, a water soluble workshop de-greaser. Screw the top on the bottle and shake it like a cocktail artist on speed...say three minutes. Empty the bottle and replace the de-greaser with water and washing up liquid. Shake like crazy, empty the liquid and rinse repeatedly, while shaking, until there are absolutely no detergent bubbles.

Extract the chain and cook it for about two hours in the oven at 70 deg, C. Dribble oil on all the rollers and Mickle it.

Sorted.


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## sabian92 (9 Sep 2011)

I use white spirit in my chain cleaner. Give it a good whizz round, change the white spirit for new until it's reasonably clean them give it a good few goings over with some hot water. I run it through a clean, dry rag and it's good as new. I use muc-off degreaser on it before hand though just to loosen it up, as well as on the cassette.


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## Theseus (9 Sep 2011)

No! No! No! ... you need "The ShelBroCo Bicycle Chain Cleaning System"


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## Melonfish (9 Sep 2011)

sabian92 said:


> I use white spirit in my chain cleaner. Give it a good whizz round, change the white spirit for new until it's reasonably clean them give it a good few goings over with some hot water. I run it through a clean, dry rag and it's good as new. I use muc-off degreaser on it before hand though just to loosen it up, as well as on the cassette.



i've heard a lot of people mention white spirit for cleaning chains, is it really that effective?


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## Theseus (9 Sep 2011)

Melonfish said:


> i've heard a lot of people mention white spirit for cleaning chains, is it really that effective?




It cleans the chain well enough. The problem for me (as with other degreasers) is that unless you can remove it completely from the chain it will emulsify any lube applied and render it ineffective.


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## Parrot of Doom (9 Sep 2011)

I've always used diesel. It's cheap and lasts ages. It does a very good job of cleaning too, while not completely removing all lubrication.

It isn't really a great idea to remove all lubricants from the chain. It takes time for oil to work its way back through all the links, time during which premature wear will occur.

A diesel-soaked rag does the job.


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## martint235 (9 Sep 2011)

Just cleaned my chain (again!). I used the Mickle method a couple of weeks ago which was wonderful, then I put some chain lube on it (rather than the spray stuff I usually use) and it went black the first time I went out on it!!! Filthy!

Just scrubbed it down with some motorbike degreaser and put some dry lube on it to see if it fares any better.


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## Fnaar (9 Sep 2011)

I Mickle my chain fairly often, then scrape the crud off the jockey wheels etc from time to time. I rode behind a guy on a sportive for a bit, on a fancy looking bike which seemingly had no lube on... it was squeaking like a trapped mouse...


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## cyberknight (9 Sep 2011)

I clean mine once a week when i clean the bikes........

Normally i use citrus degreaser to remove the worst of it then baby wipes to clean the chain+ cassette followed by a relube.


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## Garz (10 Sep 2011)

To some that is still not clean...


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## mickle (12 Sep 2011)

slowmotion said:


> _Take the chain off the bike and put it in an empty mineral water bottle. Pour in about half a litre of Jizer, a water soluble workshop de-greaser. Screw the top on the bottle and shake it like a cocktail artist on speed...say three minutes. Empty the bottle and replace the de-greaser with water and washing up liquid. Shake like crazy, empty the liquid and rinse repeatedly, while shaking, until there are absolutely no detergent bubbles.
> 
> Extract the chain and cook it for about two hours in the oven at 70 deg, C._ Dribble oil on all the rollers and *Mickle it*.
> 
> Sorted.



I think you've completely failed to understand The Method.


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## lukesdad (12 Sep 2011)

Lube and clean every ride except winter hack which is once a week.


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## Red Light (12 Sep 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Lube and clean every ride except winter hack which is once a week.



I hope you meant clean & lube 

But every ride is excessive. When you count up all the time, cleaner & lubricants it's much cheaper to replace the chain & cassette more often, even at minimum wage.


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## Cubist (12 Sep 2011)

Example One. 
Shimano XT chain, about 700 miles, all off-road. Cleaned with a squirt or two of gunk degreaser diluted five parts to one with tap water, scrubbed with a nylon brush, dries, GT85 wiped then lubed with Finish Line Dry Teflon:











Example 2:
SRAM PG970, Mickle method every week. Finish Dry Teflon Lubed. 









Why ride with a dirty chain when you can ride with a shiny clean one?


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## thehairycycler (12 Sep 2011)

I give mine a spray with WD40 wipe it off with a cloth, then I use Finishline Wet Lub not as nice looking but does the job in wet conditions, I do it about once every 200 miles or after a really wet day


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## slowmotion (12 Sep 2011)

mickle said:


> I think you've completely failed to understand The Method.



Always a possibility.


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## RichardWHardwick (13 Sep 2011)

I do nowt. Had my bike a year and a half and do about fifty miles a week. 
Am I about to inherit problems?
I don't care about a shiny chain but I do want the bike to continue working...


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2011)

Nice pics Cubist - use the same wipe method - done it for years...


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## User482 (13 Sep 2011)

Why are people so worried about their chains looking clean? Life is too short!

I just wipe my down well with a clean rag, oil it, then wipe off the excess. I don't appear to suffer from components wearing out quickly, my transmission doesn't make much noise, and shifts well.


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## superbadger (13 Sep 2011)

RichardWHardwick said:


> I do nowt. Had my bike a year and a half and do about fifty miles a week.
> Am I about to inherit problems?
> I don't care about a shiny chain but I do want the bike to continue working...



Not major problems but your bike wont last as long as it should.... I am a novice compared to most on here and when i took my bike in for a service the guy looked and said 'clean your chain and it be fine?' He was bang on.... And i didnt realise how much crap gets in amongst the oil until i did it!!!! Thats why i started this thread. Oh when you do it rip an old t-shirt up for rags.... After a year and a half of neglect you need that much....


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## 400bhp (13 Sep 2011)

fossyant said:


> Nice pics Cubist - use the same wipe method - done it for years...



Question for you & Cubist (and others who clean cassette/chain):

Do you take the cassette/crhainset apart when cleaning? 

I take the cassette off about twice a year, and don't bother taking the cchainset off.

Unless i take them off I never get the chain/cassette/chainset as clean as those pics. Am I missing a trick?

I clean with degreaser/white spirit/GT85.


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## Bman (13 Sep 2011)

I use babywipes and nothing else (besides oil).

Clean everything with baby wipes then re-lube  I dont need to remove the cassette, the baby wipes get between the gaps perfectly fine.


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## Cubist (13 Sep 2011)

400bhp said:


> Question for you & Cubist (and others who clean cassette/chain):
> 
> Do you take the cassette/crhainset apart when cleaning?
> 
> ...



For all you doubters, I ride a lot on millstone grit. It wears components very quickly if you leave it. 

No, no need to take the cassette off. With the XC bike I take the wheel out, tilt it so that the cogs all feed any fluids away from the bearings, and spray it with a mixture of Gunk Green degreaser and water, at a ratio of five to one 5:1 in an old pump spray bottle. I then scrub it with an old nylon washing up brush, making sure it gets between the cogs. 

I then scrub it again with water and car shampoo, then give it a rinse with clean water. Sadly, I then spin or even wipe it dry, mask the brake rotor and then give the cassette a squirt of GT85. 

Most importantly though, I use dry chain lube, even on wet MTB rides. I find any other sort of lube builds up a gunky paste which gets all over the chain, mechs and cassette, and then you are into degreasing etc etc on a grand scale. With dry lube the chain stays reasonably clean, and is far easier to clean. I can't remember the last time I saw black oily chains in my garage! 

On the commuter, I make sure the chain is Mickle method cleaned once a week, and always cleaned and lubed after a wet ride, but not all of the bike; that gets a deep clean once a month.


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## 400bhp (13 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> Most importantly though, I use dry chain lube, even on wet MTB rides. I find any other sort of lube builds up a gunky paste which gets all over the chain, mechs and cassette, and then you are into degreasing etc etc on a grand scale. With dry lube the chain stays reasonably clean, and is far easier to clean. I can't remember the last time I saw black oily chains in my garage!



I'm coming to that conclusion too. 

I used wet lube for about 6 months. You generally have to take less care of the chain, however when you do come to clean it, you end up with that gunky paste, which only a screwdriver head will remove off jockey wheels.

I guess through winter, with dry lube, is to give the chain a re-lube once a week or so?


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## Cubist (13 Sep 2011)

User482 said:


> Why are people so worried about their chains looking clean? Life is too short!
> 
> I just wipe my down well with a clean rag, oil it, then wipe off the excess. I don't appear to suffer from components wearing out quickly, my transmission doesn't make much noise, and shifts well.



Good for you User482. 

As for me, well, OCD isn't compulsory, but I clean the whole XC bike after almost every ride, at the same time giving it a mini-service. I like to think that every time I get on my bike all the components are going to perform well and reliably. I have a pet hate of stuff not working properly when all it takes is a bit of effort, so gear shifting and braking is always first class. Makes for a happier experience, and I'm not the one who holds up the whole group because my saddle's slipping, or my brakes are binding, or I can't shift out of the granny ring, or I still have a slow puncture/leaking valve etc etc etc!!

Oh, and I genuinely enjoy the fettling and faffing involved.


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2011)

400bhp said:


> Question for you & Cubist (and others who clean cassette/chain):
> 
> Do you take the cassette/crhainset apart when cleaning?
> 
> ...




Don't need to (take off). That pic is the best bike BTW, but my others are the same. Cassette - quick squirt of WD40 on the sprockets (not much) and then I run a rag (old t-shirt) through in-between each sprocket in an up/down motion so it spins the cassette round. Then run through again with dry part of rag (usually oily anyway).

If MTB on a gritty run, then it's low pressure hose off cassette and chain, then above but more WD or GT85.

Chainrings - just run the rag round each side - dry or with a little WD on the rag.

I now commute fixed, so that is real easy to keep clean - chainring, again run rag over chainring, but don't spin it - folk have ended up with missing fingers. When I was commuting on the MTB, used the same process as above. 

I'm a bit OCD about bikes, so I wash the bike down after a wet ride and lube the chain. This also means I run the rag round the sprockets/chainrings. Doesn't take long if you do it regular. I don't put de-greaser near anything. - Tiny squirt of WD40 on the cassette, or direct to the rag to clean chain.

Ps I regularly get comments at work 'did you miss the rain or something', 'you don't bloody ride that - it just sits in your room', 'ah I see it's OCD clean again'. 

Clean bikes are the fastest, especially when red (or blue). FACT ! PS totally busted for being a bike tart today. Brought bike up to office, two female staff chatting in corridor - excused my way through (with bike) one says ' oh very impressive, matching clothes as well'. Doh


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## Cubist (13 Sep 2011)

400bhp said:


> I'm coming to that conclusion too.
> 
> I used wet lube for about 6 months. You generally have to take less care of the chain, however when you do come to clean it, you end up with that gunky paste, which only a screwdriver head will remove off jockey wheels.
> 
> I guess through winter, with dry lube, is to give the chain a re-lube once a week or so?



That's it, but you'll need to dry it and relube after a wet ride.


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2011)

Same as cubist (but the road bikes) - I don't like anything not working 100%. I tend to ride the bikes hard and expect them to work. Real pet hate of mine.

I also hate rattles or creaks - so they get sorted. I also like tinkering - handy sometimes when the kids are out playing, I just pop in the garage whilst they are out and about.

The number of folk I've heard when doing Sportives, with crap sluggish gear changes, creaking bikes, it's untrue.


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## 400bhp (13 Sep 2011)

Agree with you both. Thanks

Still don't know how you get the cassette OCD clean without removing it. Must try harder


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## Bman (13 Sep 2011)

fossyant said:


> Don't need to (take off). That pic is the best bike BTW, but my others are the same. Cassette - quick squirt of WD40 on the sprockets (not much) and then I run a rag (old t-shirt) through in-between each sprocket in an up/down motion so it spins the cassette round. Then run through again with dry part of rag (usually oily anyway).
> 
> If MTB on a gritty run, then it's low pressure hose off cassette and chain, then above but more WD or GT85.
> 
> ...



This is true. Dirt does have mass after all


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## adds21 (13 Sep 2011)

I suffer a little from CDO (it's like OCD, but in the right order), but I'm super impressed by the cleanliness of those cassettes! 

I like keep my fixed gear bike nice and clean, but mostly because it's a "dry day" bike, but I don't have the time/energy to keep my commuter like that.

I admire anyone who does.


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## Cubist (13 Sep 2011)

fossyant said:


> Nice pics Cubist - use the same wipe method - done it for years...



Fossy wins, (but I think he's bonkers!)


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## superbadger (13 Sep 2011)

Fossy urs is impressive!!!!.... Mega inputs off everyone.


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## User482 (13 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> Good for you User482.
> 
> As for me, well, OCD isn't compulsory, but I clean the whole XC bike after almost every ride, at the same time giving it a mini-service. I like to think that every time I get on my bike all the components are going to perform well and reliably. I have a pet hate of stuff not working properly when all it takes is a bit of effort, so gear shifting and braking is always first class. Makes for a happier experience, and I'm not the one who holds up the whole group because my saddle's slipping, or my brakes are binding, or I can't shift out of the granny ring, or I still have a slow puncture/leaking valve etc etc etc!!
> 
> Oh, and I genuinely enjoy the fettling and faffing involved.




I very rarely have any of the problems you describe. I think there's a difference between maintenance, which I do, and OCD cleaning, which I don't do. Nothing wrong with the latter if you enjoy it, but I honestly don't believe there's any real need for it.


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## ianrauk (13 Sep 2011)

I agree with User482. There is really no need for the OCD cleaning of bikes and components... but boy I do enjoy and appreciate a nice and clean, sparkling bike so thoroughly enjoy taking the bike to bits and getting the Mr Sheen out...


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## Cubist (13 Sep 2011)

User482 said:


> I very rarely have any of the problems you describe. I think there's a difference between maintenance, which I do, and OCD cleaning, which I don't do. Nothing wrong with the latter if you enjoy it, but I honestly don't believe there's any real need for it.



That was my point as well. I'm all for free choice, let's leave compulsion in the helmet thread!!!!!!


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## Cubist (13 Sep 2011)

ianrauk said:


> I agree with User482. There is really no need for the OCD cleaning of bikes and components... but boy I do enjoy and appreciate a nice and clean, sparkling bike so thoroughly enjoy taking the bike to bits and getting the Mr Sheen out...



Aye.




Vanilla anti-static or Citrus?


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## potsy (13 Sep 2011)

I wish I had OCD  the bike might get cleaned more often then


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## User482 (13 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> That was my point as well. I'm all for free choice, let's leave compulsion in the helmet thread!!!!!!



I'm staying well away from that debate!


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## gbb (13 Sep 2011)

User482 said:


> Why are people so worried about their chains looking clean? Life is too short!
> 
> I just wipe my down well with a clean rag, oil it, then wipe off the excess. I don't appear to suffer from components wearing out quickly, my transmission doesn't make much noise, and shifts well.



Ive come to that conclusion too. I use engine oil, the chains clean, but black. The trade off is simple. I lube regularly so the components last well, its a hell of a lot cheaper than specific lubes, does the same job, but you have a black chain..can't say it spoils my day.

I do remove the cassette and chainrings maybe 3 or 4 times a year and really get in there, usually when i give the bike a really good 'deep clean', but its for my own pleasure, not because it'll really make that much difference to the life of it all.

That said, if someones OCD about it (and i have been in the past)...fair play to them.


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## 400bhp (13 Sep 2011)

Shall we see if we can stretch this thread out to 200+ posts ahd have a slanging match about whether it is better/worse to clean chains regularly


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## tyred (13 Sep 2011)

Give it a quick spray with WD40 every month - whether it needs it or not.


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## potsy (13 Sep 2011)

400bhp said:


> Shall we see if we can stretch this thread out to 200+ posts ahd have a slanging match about whether it is better/worse to clean chains regularly



Only 200? Where's your sense of adventure? I reckon we could get 300 easy 

Believe it or not but mine does actually get cleaned every week ish. Like yours though 400bhp it will never ever look like the one in Fossy or Cubist's photo's


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## gbb (13 Sep 2011)

RichardWHardwick said:


> I do nowt. Had my bike a year and a half and do about fifty miles a week.
> Am I about to inherit problems?
> I don't care about a shiny chain but I do want the bike to continue working...


Used to have a guy at work with a 9 speed CB MTB. No care really with his bike, commuted in all weathers, didn't have particular problems. i raised this with him one day, clean and lube it all, it'll last longer. 
His response...if i replace the chain and cassette once a year, i'm still saving money hand over fist by not paying bus fares, plus i can't be bothered with all that effort.

Fair enough, his logic can't be faulted. Diffrerent strokes...


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## 400bhp (13 Sep 2011)

gbb said:


> Used to have a guy at work with a 9 speed CB MTB. No care really with his bike, commuted in all weathers, didn't have particular problems. i raised this with him one day, clean and lube it all, it'll last longer.
> His response...if i replace the chain and cassette once a year, i'm still saving money hand over fist by not paying bus fares, plus i can't be bothered with all that effort.
> 
> Fair enough, his logic can't be faulted. Diffrerent strokes...



Interesting.

I've owned a 2nd hand Subway 1 since Dec10. Chain and front freewheel replaced early Jan 11. No idea how old the cassette was.

I use it for commuting in crap weather and for weekend rides with my daughter in a child seat. I've covered roughly 900 miles on it this year. I rarely cleaned the chain.

Checked the chain for wear last month because it was making a hell of a racket and running like a bag of spanners. You could actually see the stretch when looking at how the chain sat on the freewheel. Chain stretch was way past 1".

New chain and cassette duly added. Cost of about £45.


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## martint235 (13 Sep 2011)

potsy said:


> I wish I had OCD  the bike might get cleaned more often then
> 
> [attachment=5155:testing 1234.jpg]



Potsy even MY bike is cleaner than that!!! I think you need to move those armwarmers so they cover your hands and get polishing mate!!


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## peelywally (13 Sep 2011)

i clean my chain after long rides its best to do a small job than wait till its an hour long job i think ,

a wipe with oily rag usually lubes and cleans it and takes 2minutes bit longer if grimy maybe ten minutes with toothbrush or 5 with chain cleaning tool ,

either way i hate having to sit there chipping caked grime and greasy muck off it for ages .


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## MrHappyCyclist (14 Sep 2011)

Mine at 2000 miles. Cleaned (with Park Tool chain cleaner) and lubed (with PTFE dry lube) every 500 miles.


So far, my micrometer says it's about 0.2% stretched. I intend to replace it at 0.5%.


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## mickle (14 Sep 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> Mine at 2000 miles. Cleaned (with Park Tool chain cleaner) and lubed (with PTFE dry lube) every 500 miles.
> [attachment=5159:20110913_001.jpg]
> So far, my micrometer says it's about 0.2% stretched. I intend to replace it at 0.5%.



That looks quite worn to me - the rollers are loose on the pins.


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## HLaB (14 Sep 2011)

While we are on about it, my bikes need a good clean, the Bianchi has done three or four dry Sunday club runs and the Purin Hill TT and its now in this state.




The kinesis got soaked a few weeks ago and got a good clean then but I've probably done 250 miles on it since it's now in this state.



The Ridgeback is in dire need of cleaning, its now in this state and definitely a case of 'Clean that chain' 




I don't know why but the Bianchi (Campy) seems to clean up better, it also seems to stay cleaner for longer but thats more to do with the environments its ridden in but even when the Kinesis 105 stays in the dry too it seems to get dirtier faster?


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## MrHappyCyclist (14 Sep 2011)

mickle said:


> That looks quite worn to me - the rollers are loose on the pins.


Hm, interesting; IIRC, it was like that when new. Your comment prompted me to open up the new one (Shimano HG53) I have in the garage ready to replace it, and the rollers are loose on the pins of that one as well. I wonder whether that is how they are supposed to be perhaps?


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## Cubist (14 Sep 2011)

All the more reason to stick with SRAM IMHO,. I got the XT (HG 93) as a bit of a bargain, but it will be replaced by a PG970.


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## MrHappyCyclist (14 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> All the more reason to stick with SRAM IMHO,. I got the XT (HG 93) as a bit of a bargain, but it will be replaced by a PG970.


I don't see why loose rollers is a problem. Surely it is the pitch of the chain that is important, and that is affected by looseness between the bushings and the pins, not between the rollers and the bushings.


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## mickle (14 Sep 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> I don't see why loose rollers is a problem. Surely it is the pitch of the chain that is important, and that is affected by looseness between the bushings and the pins, not between the rollers and the bushings.



Which neatly gets us into a discussion about the effectiveness of rivet to rivet measurement (which doesn't account for roller slop) versus the use of a proprietary chain checker of the sort made by Rohloff/Park et al (which does).

I use a Park (the old one) for checking chains. And I believe that sloppy rollers do have a negative effect on the knock-on wear to other components and are a pretty good indicator of a chain's condition. A chain with loose rollers cannot hope to fit nicely onto a ring or sprocket and it is precicely this poor interface between components which causes the damage.


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## MrHappyCyclist (14 Sep 2011)

mickle said:


> Which neatly gets us into a discussion about the effectiveness of rivet to rivet measurement (which doesn't account for roller slop) versus the use of a proprietary chain checker of the sort made by Rohloff/Park et al (which does).
> 
> I use a Park (the old one) for checking chains. And I believe that sloppy rollers do have a negative effect on the knock-on wear to other components and are a pretty good indicator of a chain's condition. A chain with loose rollers cannot hope to fit nicely onto a ring or sprocket and it is precicely this poor interface between components which causes the damage.


You're right about the difference, but this site cites that as a reason why those tools are not accurate and shouldn't be used.

Sheldon Brown's explanation of chain and sprocket wear, coupled with the explanation on that pardo site, coupled with the fact that many new chains seem to be designed with quite a lot of play in the rollers, have all convinced me that it really is the pin-to-pin distance that matters, not the wear in the roller/bush interface (provided the rollers have worn reasonably equally).

The way I see it, play in the rollers would simply result in a scenario like image C in the following figure taken from the pardo site:




with the rollers seated neatly between the sprocket teeth and the pins all offset by an equal amount.

I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise, but can you explain how play in the rollers would prevent those rollers from seating in the sprockets if the pin-to-pin spacing is correct?


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## John90 (14 Sep 2011)

The chain wear debate is getting a bit too technical for me, but I noticed several mentions of WD40 lubrication earlier in the thread. I was told that was absolutely forbidden on a bike. Not so?


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## mickle (14 Sep 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> You're right about the difference, but this site cites that as a reason why those tools are not accurate and shouldn't be used.
> 
> Sheldon Brown's explanation of chain and sprocket wear, coupled with the explanation on that pardo site, coupled with the fact that many new chains seem to be designed with quite a lot of play in the rollers, have all convinced me that it really is the pin-to-pin distance that matters, not the wear in the roller/bush interface (provided the rollers have worn reasonably equally).
> 
> ...



Great illustration BTW! 

Welll.... Sprocket (I include chain-rings in this definition) wear occurs as a result of excessive loading of individual teeth - when a chain has 'stretched' enough to provide inadequate wrap of the sprocket. Loose rollers cause the chain to drop towards the centre. On a large sprocket the effect of loose rollers is not significant but the smaller the sprocket the closer the pins sit to the centre. The chain's centre line described by its pins do not sit in the centre of the gap between the teeth but drop down into it. The chain with loose rollers therefore behaves just like a chain with an increased pin to pin dimension.

Forgive me if that doesn't make much sense, I'm trying to watch the documentary about Fukoshima.


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## Cubist (15 Sep 2011)

John90 said:


> The chain wear debate is getting a bit too technical for me, but I noticed several mentions of WD40 lubrication earlier in the thread. I was told that was absolutely forbidden on a bike. Not so?



It opens a new debate and gets some forum folk frothing at the mouth, but here goes.

WD40 is a spray designed to disperse water. That is, believe it or not, what the WD stands for. It's solvent carrier has a degreasing effect and so is very good as a cleaner and degreaser, but it strips protective oils off metal surfaces. Used as a chain cleaner it's fine, as long as the chain is lubed carefully afterwards, but some people use it as a lubricant in its own right, so metal surfaces remain unprotected. Mickle is NOT a fan, and the use of the letters and numbers without care has been known to induce apoplexy. 

It is, IMHO far better to use GT85. It's solvent carrier still has some cleansing effect, but when it's evaporated the spray leaves behind a protective PTFE film. 

And it smells great.


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## mickle (15 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> It opens a new debate and gets some forum folk frothing at the mouth, but here goes.
> 
> WD40 is a spray designed to disperse water. That is, believe it or not, what the WD stands for. It's solvent carrier has a degreasing effect and so is very good as a cleaner and degreaser, but it strips protective oils off metal surfaces. Used as a chain cleaner it's fine, as long as the chain is lubed carefully afterwards, but some people use it as a lubricant in its own right, so metal surfaces remain unprotected. Mickle is NOT a fan, and the use of the letters and numbers without care has been known to induce apoplexy.
> 
> ...



You owe me a keyboard.


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## MrHappyCyclist (15 Sep 2011)

mickle said:


> Welll.... Sprocket (I include chain-rings in this definition) wear occurs as a result of excessive loading of individual teeth - when a chain has 'stretched' enough to provide inadequate wrap of the sprocket. Loose rollers cause the chain to drop towards the centre. On a large sprocket the effect of loose rollers is not significant but the smaller the sprocket the closer the pins sit to the centre. The chain's centre line described by its pins do not sit in the centre of the gap between the teeth but drop down into it. The chain with loose rollers therefore behaves just like a chain with an increased pin to pin dimension.


I think what you are saying is, to put it another way, that the movement of the pins towards the centre of the sprocket causes the effective diameter of the sprocket to be smaller (as seen by that chain), so the effective pitch of the sprocket teeth appears slightly shorter. I see the logic, but I need to think about it a bit more.

If the leading pin is hard up against the tooth (just before it leaves the sprocket), which it would be due to the chain tension, then the second pin can't be down in the valley unless the link is stretched (i.e. the pin-bush bearings are worn) because to get there it would have to move round the inside curve of the roller, away from the leading pin. The link to the third pin would tend to pull it down, but that would just cause it to apply a force to the inside front of the second roller and thus to the sprocket tooth, which is what we want. The same applies all the way round as far as I can see.

Once the chain is a bit worn ("stretched"), then I can see that the play in the rollers may even be an advantage, as it would allow the second (and subsequent) pins to be pulled down into the valley a bit by the next link until it contacts the inside of the roller and continues to apply a force to the sprocket. Without the play in the rollers, this would not happen and all of the force would go onto the tooth in front of the leading pin.

As I said, I need to think about it, but I would be surprised if Shimano were to be selling chains that are effectively worm out before they are even installed.

Hope you don't mind discussing this; I find it quite interesting.


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## potsy (17 Sep 2011)

martint235 said:


> Potsy even MY bike is cleaner than that!!! I think you need to move those armwarmers so they cover your hands and get polishing mate!!



Spent 10 mins with a semi clean rag on it today-


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## HLaB (17 Sep 2011)

Its not perfect but I cleaned up the Kinesis tonight:


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## Theseus (17 Sep 2011)

HLaB said:


> Its not perfect but I cleaned up the Kinesis tonight:
> [attachment=5255:100_5057.JPG] [attachment=5256:100_5059.JPG]



Your chainring teeth look a bit worn.


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## HLaB (17 Sep 2011)

Touche said:


> Your chainring teeth look a bit worn.


Probably, its a bit of a false economy but I can't really afford to replace things at the mo.


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## mickle (18 Sep 2011)

MrHappyCyclist said:


> I think what you are saying is, to put it another way, that the movement of the pins towards the centre of the sprocket causes the effective diameter of the sprocket to be smaller (as seen by that chain), so the effective pitch of the sprocket teeth appears slightly shorter. I see the logic, but I need to think about it a bit more.
> 
> If the leading pin is hard up against the tooth (just before it leaves the sprocket), which it would be due to the chain tension, then the second pin can't be down in the valley unless the link is stretched (i.e. the pin-bush bearings are worn) because to get there it would have to move round the inside curve of the roller, away from the leading pin. The link to the third pin would tend to pull it down, but that would just cause it to apply a force to the inside front of the second roller and thus to the sprocket tooth, which is what we want. The same applies all the way round as far as I can see.
> 
> ...



The way to tell is to put a load on the chain and then investigate at which point it's possible to lift the chain away from the sprocket. If the rollers are, as you suspect, hard up against the teeth you'll be able to tell. 

When Shi**no introduced Ultraglide and Hyperdrive it was widely observed that the new tooth profiles, designed to allow easier passage of the chain up and down the block, were created by a removal of material at key points on each sprocket. At the cost of significantly reduced durability. Shi**no don't mind that their parts wear out prematurely. Their stuff is designed to work well straight out of the box, without any 'running in'. That they achieve at the cost of durability seems to have been forgotten.


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## superbadger (19 Sep 2011)

Getting back on topic..... I got a new way to do my chain. i smeared rag in wd40 and did a 'shoe-shine' over each gear cog. worked a treat . Got the idea from the divided opinion about WD40!!! It does no harm but possibly some good! So what the hell,all i know is that stuff cleans well....


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## MrHappyCyclist (19 Sep 2011)

mickle said:


> The way to tell is to put a load on the chain and then investigate at which point it's possible to lift the chain away from the sprocket. If the rollers are, as you suspect, hard up against the teeth you'll be able to tell.


Ah, of course. That's the most direct way to tell, thanks.

I tried it on the 12 toothed sprocket and the first four pins are tight against the sprocket. I am able to lift the fifth, which pulls length from the chain tensioner. I think it's probably OK at the moment.


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## Cubist (19 Sep 2011)

superbadger said:


> Getting back on topic..... I got a new way to do my chain. i smeared rag in wd40 and did a 'shoe-shine' over each gear cog. worked a treat . Got the idea from the divided opinion about WD40!!! It does no harm but possibly some good! So what the hell,all i know is that stuff cleans well....


Spray it with GT 85 afterwards though!


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## cjb (19 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> Example One.
> Shimano XT chain, about 700 miles, all off-road. Cleaned with a squirt or two of gunk degreaser diluted five parts to one with tap water, scrubbed with a nylon brush, dries, GT85 wiped then lubed with Finish Line Dry Teflon:
> 
> 
> ...



Looks good, do you take the chain off the bike for this routine please?


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## superbadger (19 Sep 2011)

Cubist said:


> Spray it with GT 85 afterwards though!



Of course cubist.....


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## Cubist (19 Sep 2011)

cjb said:


> Looks good, do you take the chain off the bike for this routine please?



No, both done with the bike in a stand with the wheel out for cleaning.


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## Moss (8 Nov 2011)

fossyant said:


> Nice pics Cubist - use the same wipe method - done it for years...



That's how I'd like to keep my chain and FW looking!! Gunk and Teflon Spray? Yes


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## Cubist (9 Nov 2011)

Moss said:


> That's how I'd like to keep my chain and FW looking!! Gunk and Teflon Spray? Yes




Not teflon spray, dry teflon lube.


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## Moss (9 Nov 2011)

Cubist said:


> Not teflon spray, dry teflon lube.



Thank you!

DRY TEFLON LUBE? Does it come in a bottle or can? non spray type? 

M


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## Cubist (9 Nov 2011)

It comes in squeeze bottles or spray, but I prefer the bottles.
http://www.finishlin...n-plus-lube.htm

Check out the videos. 

Just one shopping result, but cheap enough and free delivery.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=317


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## Jdratcliffe (16 Mar 2012)

peelywally said:


> i clean my chain after long rides its best to do a small job than wait till its an hour long job i think ,
> 
> a wipe with oily rag usually lubes and cleans it and takes 2minutes bit longer if grimy maybe ten minutes with toothbrush or 5 with chain cleaning tool ,
> 
> either way i hate having to sit there chipping caked grime and greasy muck off it for ages .


 
use http://www.wiggle.co.uk/muc-off-chain-cleaner-400ml-aerosol/
and
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/muc-off-water-soluble-degreaser-500ml-aerosol/

wprk great on the greasey stuff 
then this on the rest http://www.wiggle.co.uk/muc-off-nano-tech-bike-cleaner-1-litre-bottle-with-spray-1/
all works a treat and not that tough either!


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## PaulSB (26 Mar 2012)

Three weeks ago I finally bought one of those chain cleaners that clips over the chain and hooks round the jockey wheel. All I can say is the results are amazing and because there is no crap present for more road muck to cling to the chain stays clean for longer.

First time it's used one needs to be really thorough. 

I've also started lubing the inside of the chain and being scrupulous about wiping off the excess. The combination of the two, which I learnt here, is marvellous.


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## migrantwing (30 Mar 2012)

Weldtite TF2 Teflon Lube spray is excellent. I don't think Weldtite products get the praise they deserve.


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## Col5632 (30 Mar 2012)

Just tried GT85 the other day, wow that stuff is amazing  Could see the grease and dirt just falling off my chain


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## asterix (30 Mar 2012)

Belt drive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-driven_bicycle


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## xxmimixx (15 Apr 2012)

migrantwing said:


> Weldtite TF2 Teflon Lube spray is excellent. I don't think Weldtite products get the praise they deserve.



Hiya  where do you get this stuff i really. need to clean my chain too  ...


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## Holdsworth (16 Apr 2012)

asterix said:


> Belt drive.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belt-driven_bicycle


 
I noticed that in their new catalogue, EBC are introducing a belt-driven model to their range this spring aptly named the "Belter". I would love to take one for a test ride to see what it is like  Unfortunately for me I don't live within easy reach of one of their stores.


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## bubbles3 (25 Apr 2012)

thanks for the tip, baby wipes work a treat. But what should i do with my cat swinging of the other end of the baby wipe while i use it!


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## ianrauk (25 Apr 2012)

bubbles3 said:


> thanks for the tip, baby wipes work a treat. But what should i do with my cat swinging of the other end of the baby wipe while i use it!


 

Use your cat to buff the spokes.


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## Pat "5mph" (25 Apr 2012)

ianrauk said:


> Use your cat to buff the spokes.


BigCat says: I'll rather sleep in a helmet!


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## ianrauk (26 Apr 2012)

Pat "5mph" said:


> BigCat says: I'll rather sleep in a helmet!


 

Best things for helmets.


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