# cyclists blocking the road



## funnymummy (16 May 2011)

Was talking with a lady who I used to work with today, she is a regular cyclist, rides to school with her children & out most weekends on their bikes.
She told me about an incident on Sunday morning, she was driving near Fulking and came up behind a group of cyclists, they were at that point 6 a breast accross the road, filing the left hand lane, the road was quite narrow & bendy and she didn't feel it safe to overtake, after about 1/4 of a mile, 2 of the group dropped back, but the other 4 just spread out to occupy the space, she said that after another 1/4 mile she got so cross she beeped her horn several times, which obvioulsy annoyed the group as they slowed down.
She wasn't in any hurry to get to her destination, but felt this was really bad form on the riders part, she eventauly managed to pass them on a straight part, but was given much abuse, rude lanaguage & gestures by the cyclist as she did, she had her 2 children 9 & 5 in the car with her.
It's behaviour likes this that gives cyclist a bad name...Why do some riders insist of behaving in this manner?


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

tough. The road in question is a narrow road on which any type of overtaking can be seen as risky. The cyclists took the decision that they didn't want to be overtaken. That's the end of that. Sounds like her eventual overtake was poor. She should have waited.

Has she never seen a tractor? Or a caravan?

(I expect this was the event that was being marshalled at Ditchling - we crossed at right angles)


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## funnymummy (16 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> tough. The road in question is a narrow road on which any type of overtaking can be seen as risky. The cyclists took the decision that they didn't want to be overtaken. That's the end of that.



I agree there are times that I ride wider than norm to prevent a car overtaking in what I deem a hazardous situation, but at the first safe oppertunity I will pull in, slow down & allow them past.


I may not have made it clear in my post but from the way she described it she said there were several times she could have passed them when the road was staright & she had good visibility, but on these occasions the outer rider moved over, on several occasions crossing the centre of the road & thus preveneting her from doing so


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

that's what I mean about the cyclists deciding that it was unsafe. They made their decision, and she should have just waited.


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## Moodyman (16 May 2011)

I don't think drivers appreciate how startling and offensive a horn is to cyclists and pedestrians.

Your friend need not have done that. Gentle revving of the engine will have alerted the cyclists that there was a car behind.

And yes, six abreast was a little anti-social of them, but on a quiet Sunday morning, it may just be excusable.


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## Chris.IOW (16 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> that's what I mean about the cyclists deciding that it was unsafe. They made their decision, and she should have just waited.



Seems to me though that the cyclists actions actually increase the chances of an accident. By frustrating the driver to the point where they may have attempted a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre. If there were parts of the road where an overtake was possible they should have allowed it. 

And even if they felt there was no place where it was safe to overtake, what is the justification for the abuse and rude gestures, totally uncalled for.


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## SquareDaff (16 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> I may not have made it clear in my post but from the way she described it she said there were several times she could have passed them when the road was staright & she had good visibility, but on these occasions *the outer rider moved over, on several occasions crossing the centre of the road & thus preveneting her from doing so *


I don't care how dangerous they think it is - they don't have the right to block both sides of the road. The one they're riding on, yes. The other - no.


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## tyred (16 May 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> Seems to me though that the cyclists actions actually increase the chances of an accident. By frustrating the driver to the point where they may have attempted a dangerous overtaking manoeuvre. If there were parts of the road where an overtake was possible they should have allowed it.
> 
> And even if they felt there was no place where it was safe to overtake, what is the justification for the abuse and rude gestures, totally uncalled for.


+1


It is unreasonable to hold someone up needlessly.

And with regards to tractors, I have spent large chunks of my life driving them and if I can, I will always pull over to let faster traffic past. I expect others to show me the same courtesy.


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## twozeronine (16 May 2011)

Indeed, if they want to take up the lane to prevent dangerous overtakes - fine, but I think once a car is behind them waiting to overtake, then they should have split into single file or pulled over to let them pass safely.


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## Mark_Robson (16 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> that's what I mean about the cyclists deciding that it was unsafe. They made their decision, and she should have just waited.


Or alternatively they could have shown some consideration to the motorist and dropped into single file to allow her to get past. I'm surprised at your reply dell as it clearly shows that you have zero empathy or consideration for the motorist. Your posts show alarmingly similar attitudes to the motons who comment on cycling vids on Youtube.


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## Dan B (16 May 2011)

Impossible to say who was "right" and who "wrong" without seeing it oneself or at the least without hearing from both sides. Some cyclists are jerks; some drivers too; some people do things which are misconstrued by others as evidence of jerkhood but are actually just ignorance (beeping often falls into this category)

I do wonder how can she have "got so cross" yet still not been in any particular hurry, though


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## twozeronine (16 May 2011)

Dan B said:


> I do wonder how can she have "got so cross" yet still not been in any particular hurry, though



I think it's the mentality a lot of people adopt when driving a car, of "I can go faster than you, therefore I should be".


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## Jezston (16 May 2011)

Were they in club kit?


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## Herzog (16 May 2011)

4/6 abreast?
0.66 - should have got past easy


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## Red Light (16 May 2011)

Mark_Robson said:


> Or alternatively they could have shown some consideration to the motorist and dropped into single file to allow her to get past. I'm surprised at your reply dell as it clearly shows that you have zero empathy or consideration for the motorist. Your posts show alarmingly similar attitudes to the motons who comment on cycling vids on Youtube.



That usually makes things worse in my experience as they now have the whole length of 6 cyclists line astern to overtake rather than one six wide. A frequent consequence is they will pull out to overtake, get partway down the line, realise they are not going to make it and try to pull back in with cyclists alongside them. Either that or brake like crazy to try to get into a gap between cyclists from overtaking speed.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 May 2011)

one of my colleagues at work was delayed near Hurstpierpoint by what sounds like the same group; he esitmated it to be 60 strong and it sounds like a proper pace line cum peloton which was moving in excess of 20mph with people passing up the right en route to the front of the line.

He advised a spot of tooting from the car in front of his was ill received by the cyclists. I asked which part of the highway code contained the rules on use of the horn to signal frustration.

Single file in such numbers doesn't work on country lanes, dumb, dumb, dumb, the line is too long to be overtaken safely in one go, someone tries it and then dives into the line of cyclists when a vehicle appears the other way.

Stopping a large number of cyclists moving as a body is difficult to do, and one big pack is probably less frustrating that five or six pods.

The answer is for the motorists to chillax, like they would if confronted with a long wide load moving slowly down a country lane and wait for the pack to turn off. The accelerator pedal moves both ways.


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## Andy_R (16 May 2011)

*Excerpt from highway code:
*

*66*
You should


keep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear
keep both feet on the pedals
never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends
not ride close behind another vehicle
not carry anything which will affect your balance or may get tangled up with your wheels or chain
be considerate of other road users, particularly blind and partially sighted pedestrians. Let them know you are there when necessary, for example, by ringing your bell if you have one. It is recommended that a bell be fitted.
Yes, I am aware that it is not a regulation, merely a suggestion as it is prefaced with the word "should", but then, so is most of the highway code. Most complaints made about drivers are that they overtake too close and it is a pet hate of mine, but the highway code merely suggests that you should give cyclists at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (rule 163). So shouldn't we ALL obey the highway code when we use the highways, and not just bring it up when it suits us?


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## Red Light (16 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> after about 1/4 of a mile, 2 of the group dropped back, but the other 4 just spread out to occupy the space, she said that after another 1/4 mile she got so cross she beeped her horn several times, which obvioulsy annoyed the group as they slowed down.



1/4 mile @ 60mph = 15s
1/4 mile @ 15mph = 60s

Time wasted before she lost her temper about 45s max, probably 20s from the road description. Less time than she wastes sitting at a traffic light

Time wasted to dangerous overtake, twice that.

I thought she was in no hurry but clearly her 40s or so is worth a lot more to her than the safety and enjoyment of other road users.


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## Andy_R (16 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> she eventauly managed to pass them on a straight part, but was given much abuse, rude lanaguage & gestures by the cyclist as she did, she had her 2 children 9 & 5 in the car with her.
> It's behaviour likes this that gives cyclist a bad name...Why do some riders insist of behaving in this manner?



Section 5 and 6(4) of the Public Order Act. What justification is there to act like that, especially around children?


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## GrumpyGregry (16 May 2011)

Andy_R said:


> Section 5 and 6(4) of the Public Order Act. What justification is there to act like that, especially around children?




I agree. Her behaviour in front of her own children was shocking.


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## mickle (16 May 2011)

The fact that she is a cyclist herself makes no difference - I know plenty of people who ride bikes who are ignorant of many of the rules of the road.

Or did it go like this? Driver comes up behind a group of cyclists. As is their right they've filled the (narrow and bendy) road to prevent any dangerous overtaking manouvres. 

(Drivers should allow cyclists the same road space as they would give any other road user when overtaking - so if there was no place to safely pass many cyclists abreast there was equally no place to safely pass them if they were in single file). 

Instead of waiting she showed her impatience by beeping her horn. To which they responded with a big F-U

'If you're going to behave like that we're going to make you wait a bit longer' type thing. 

I would do the same.


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## funnymummy (16 May 2011)

Red Light said:


> I thought she was in no hurry but clearly her 40s or so is worth a lot more to her than the safety and enjoyment of other road users.



 She drives one of those superquiet 'eco' cars, she did not beep her horn out of 'you're holding me up frustration' but becuase she wasn't sure if the cyclist were even aware she was behind them, and was thinking she could be stuck behind them for miles ..
In total time she was behind them for 17 minutes

And the original point of my post was that, yes cyclist do ride wide to prevent cars from passing when unsafe, I do so myself, but to block a road, when it is safe to pass, to deliberatly hold up another person & to then call her names, such as bitch & slag to repeat a few, to hope she crashes is not on - She passed slowly & wide, it was warm & she had the windows open, they could see she had children in the car - That is just not acceptable


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## Dayvo (16 May 2011)

On the continent, motorists toot to let you know of their presence, not to say 'get out of the way' - it seems that is what FM's mate was doing.


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## mickle (16 May 2011)

Moodyman said:


> Gentle revving of the engine will have alerted the cyclists that there was a car behind.



I consider engine revving to be just about as rude a thing a motorist can do behind a cyclist - worse than sounding the horn. It's aggressive and anti-social.


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## GrumpyGregry (16 May 2011)

The point is they were NOT blocking the road. They were travelling along it. They were just not moving fast enough for the impatient driver concerned. Who, in the words of the original post, 'after another 1/4 mile (she) got so cross she beeped her horn several times" 

The case rests m'lud.


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## Dayvo (16 May 2011)

GregCollins said:


> The point is they were NOT blocking the road. They were travelling along it. They were just not moving fast enough for the impatient driver concerned. Who, in the words of the original post, 'after another 1/4 mile (she) got so cross she beeped her horn several times"
> 
> The case rests m'lud.




No, but as one peloton, they were preventing traffic from overtaking. 

They (we) don't have a God-given right to dominate one lane of traffic. Common sense should have prevailed and they took to riding single file, allowing the motorist to use their judgement in overtaking at a safe and convenient place, and not being, effectively, told to wait.


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## 4F (16 May 2011)

Dayvo said:


> On the continent, motorists toot to let you know of their presence, not to say 'get out of the way' - it seems that is what FM's mate was doing.



Possibly, but over here in the UK it seems most toots of the horn are used in an agressive "get out of my way" way. Certainly that is my experience and when that has been done to me I generally cycle slower and when the moton finally does pass I normally blow them a kiss  .


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## mickle (16 May 2011)

1/2 mile @ 17 minutes = 8.5 mph. Unusually slow for a group of lycra-ists. On flat or rolling terrain they'd be cruising at twice that and more. Was it all uphill?


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## Chris.IOW (16 May 2011)

I wonder, would they have acted this way if it had been a police car driving behind them rather than a lady with two kids, I think possibly not!


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## funnymummy (16 May 2011)

mickle said:


> 1/2 mile @ 17 minutes = 8.5 mph. Unusually slow for a group of lycra-ists. On flat or rolling terrain they'd be cruising at twice that and more. Was it all uphill?



She said she was behind the group for about 1/4 mile, at which point 2 riders dropped back, after another 1/4 mile she beeped her horn to make them aware she was behind - It was at this point they slowed down & began spreading out, I have no idea how far in distance she actulay drove but she knew it was 17 minutes until she managed to pass them as the news came on the radio just before she came up behind them


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> Seems to me though that the cyclists actions actually increase the chances of an accident............


were you there?


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

Red Light said:


> 1/4 mile @ 60mph = 15s
> 1/4 mile @ 15mph = 60s
> 
> Time wasted before she lost her temper about *45s max*, probably 20s from the road description. Less time than she wastes sitting at a traffic light
> ...


that sounds about right.


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

Mark_Robson said:


> Or alternatively they could have shown some consideration to the motorist and dropped into single file to allow her to get past. I'm surprised at your reply dell as it clearly shows that you have zero empathy or consideration for the motorist. Your posts show alarmingly similar attitudes to the motons who comment on cycling vids on Youtube.


I'm giving the cyclists the credit for knowing what was best. 

As Greg says, they were not blocking the road - they were riding along it

The FNRttC takes to a dangerous B road, the B2139 for about 0.9 miles. There is no option - or, rather, all the other options are worse. I hold the traffic up (as I do at Clapham Common) and my intention is that they do not pass because it's a narrow road and cars come round blind bends at high speed. Last month a car passed some of the riders, possibly a dozen or so and then slid in to athe left when another car came around the bend in the opposing direction. As it happened it was a woman driver with elderly passengers. 

My responsibility is to my fellow cyclists. I zipped forward and stationed myself on the right of the car. The driver was incensed. She decided to move toward me in an attempt to frighten me. That wasn't ever going to work.

An extraordinary thing happened. She turned left in to Amberley station car park, _before we turned off the road._ In other words the entire length of her trip in our company would have been 0.8 miles. If she had travelled the distance at 50mph she'd have done it in just under a minute. Doing it at 16mph she would have done it at 3 minutes. For the sake of two minutes she was prepared to put cyclists at risk, and, thwarted by not being able to do so, lost her rag (as she turned left she was giving me V-signs). 

People of this ilk are filth.


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## gavintc (16 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> 6 a breast accross the road, filing the left hand lane, the road was quite narrow & bendy



Road width is hard to define as it is often defined by what is available rather than a minimum width. But a narrow road would probably around 12 feet wide. It would be impossible to get 6 cyclists across on a road of this width. 4 would be difficult and 3 would be a more reasonable number. I therefore suggest that your friend's evidence is highly questionable and was simply an anti-cyclists whinge. 

A large group of cyclists singling out would actually make a more difficult hazard to overtake and would encourage a car to simply squeeze in while overtaking. It may therefore seem counter - intuitive, but bunching up into a smaller and wider group, often makes less of a problem for overtaking cars.


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

Dayvo said:


> No, but as one peloton, they were preventing traffic from overtaking.
> 
> They (we) don't have a God-given right to dominate one lane of traffic. Common sense should have prevailed and they took to riding single file, allowing the motorist to use their judgement in overtaking at a safe and convenient place, and not being, effectively, told to wait.


the problem with that, Dayvo is that the road in question is not wide enough to allow that to happen safely. Some roads are and some roads aren't. (I don't believe the 6 abreast thing, by the way)


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> I wonder, would they have acted this way if it had been a police car driving behind them rather than a lady with two kids, I think possibly not!


if the police car had been sounding a siren or flashing lights they'd have stopped and flattened themselves against the hedge.


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## wheres_my_beard (16 May 2011)

A little communication from the cyclists at the back may have helped; just an acknowledging hand gesture or eye contact would have defused the situation, surely?? 

I personally feel that the cyclists should have made some attempt to allow the car to pass or actively indicate that if was not safe to pass, so they can all continue their journeys without too much drama; not because of what the law says, implies or suggests but out of _courtesy _for other road users. 

If there had been group of walkers taking up the road, would these cyclists have hung back and cycled as walking pace indefinitely without making their presence known? Probably not.


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## ian turner (16 May 2011)

You're attacking us, You're attacking us. Solidarity against the enemy comrades  
It's like handing out helpful helmet advice in the park isn't it ?


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## screenman (16 May 2011)

Wind noise prevents most cyclists from hearing what is behind them, personally I use a very short push on the horn from some distance back to let a group know I am there, I also appreciate it if that is done for my whilst on the bike. I know the rest of my cycling and racing family members feel the same way.

I will not comment on the OP as not being there I would not like to cast an opinion. But for sure I see some atrocious cycling and the same for driving skills.


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## marinyork (16 May 2011)

screenman said:


> Wind noise prevents most cyclists from hearing what is behind them, personally I use a very short push on the horn from some distance back to let a group know I am there, I also appreciate it if that is done for my whilst on the bike. I know the rest of my cycling and racing family members feel the same way.



What an incredibly patronising thing to say (not the first time this really weird claim has been made on this thread). Wind noise does not prevent most cyclists from hearing what is behind them, rather it helps along with other things to muffle whatever is yelled at them good or bad as a driver passes them. Do you love in some idyll where the horn isn't used aggressively?

As a cyclist you really should know better to say such things, as should FM's friend. A horn is fine in a tame driving culture, sadly we don't live in one and most uses of the horn will be classed as a hostile and aggressive act, whether it was meant like that or not.


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

None of you were there, and I suspect few of you know the road. I doubt that many of you have ever managed a group ride.

This is an established event, attracting experienced cyclists and they made a judgement, based on their circumstances. If you're in a similar situation, by all means do things your way.............

If a car comes up behind us on (say) High Street Chipstead then we're not going to make it easy for the driver to pass - in fact it would probably be impossible for a car to pass unless we all stopped, which we wouldn't because there's not a stopping place big enough to accommodate the entire ride. If a car comes up behind us on (say) the B2110, which happens to be in the vicinity of Fulking, then the riders will automatically single out and the car can proceed without hindrance. That's called knowing what you're about.


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397013"]
Come on now Dell, you're not doing yourself any favours here. Criticising others for making assumptions while carrying on with your own.

We all know that some drivers get impatient around cyclists.

We all know that some cyclists ride defensively when appropriate and will block traffic when they feel at risk.

We all know that some cyclists take this too far, and 'claim their rights' when there's no need to. Pack mentality doesn't help. I'm sure you've seen it on Critical Mass.

By all means form an opinion based on your knowledge of the road, but don't dismiss anything which doesn't follow the view that you decided on at the beginning of this thread.

None of us where there, so I really don't understand why we're all taking positions on behalf of people that we don't even know. Pack mentality?
[/quote]I don't believe the six abreast thing because travelling down that road six abreast would be pretty darn difficult. Not to say inefficient. 

And, frankly, Mr. P, you're being disingenuous. CM is about stopping the traffic. This lot were moving along.


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## JonnyBlade (16 May 2011)

4 and 6 abreast !!!!!!! And then the abuse .............. horns piss me off big time and they are quite startling but not exactly 2 abreast are they. If I was a cop I would have spoken to the cyclists because the OP suggests they had a total disregard for anyone else on the road and in fact encouraged, by their actions, other road users to have a go.


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## Red Light (16 May 2011)

mickle said:


> 1/2 mile @ 17 minutes = 8.5 mph. Unusually slow for a group of lycra-ists. On flat or rolling terrain they'd be cruising at twice that and more. Was it all uphill?



ITYM 1.8mph. Pretty impressive cycling in a peleton at that speed. I think I'd fall over below 2mph.

Why is it these stories always start to unravel when you pick at a little loose thread?


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397018"]
It doesn't matter why you don't believe it. The fact is that you're taking a side where you're not qualified to, and when you're well aware that there's a possibility that the riders were just being arses.

I'd rather keep an open mind.
[/quote]
no - I'm making a judgement based on the width of the road, and a decent amount of experience of group rides. And, once again - the cyclists used their judgement. They're entitled to do that. If people reading this thread want to do things differently that's fine by me.


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## Red Light (16 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> She said she was behind the group for about 1/4 mile, at which point 2 riders dropped back, after another 1/4 mile she beeped her horn to make them aware she was behind - It was at this point they slowed down & began spreading out, I have no idea how far in distance she actulay drove but she knew it was 17 minutes until she managed to pass them as the news came on the radio just before she came up behind them



Where exactly is this four mile long road near Fulking where she was stuck behind them for 17 minutes of horn blowing?


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## Muddy Ground (16 May 2011)

On the news that she was listening to in her car, did the traffic section happen to state that a bunch of Fulking cyclists were blocking the road?

MG

p.s. Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Red Light (16 May 2011)

I wonder if its the same person and bunch of cyclists?


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## funnymummy (16 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> no - *I'm making a judgement based on the width of the road*, and a decent amount of experience of group rides. And, once again - the cyclists used their judgement. They're entitled to do that. If people reading this thread want to do things differently that's fine by me.



I appreciate your experience & i'd happily take any advice you have to give, but how can you make a judgement..?
Do you know which road this happened on..?
I don't, my friend didn't mention the road name, only it was on her way to Fulking, it could have been A283, A2037, A281, Clappers Lane or Poynings Road.
You cannot make a judgemnet when you do not know what to judge


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## dellzeqq (16 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397021"]
Third time -you're groundlessly dismissing one of the possible scenarios.


In your experience of group rides -you've never seen cyclists going too far?
[/quote]since you ask - in more years than I care to think about, and on more rides than I could possibly remember - other than CM - no. Absolutely not. What I have seen time and time again is the people at the back letting cars by that then move in on the group, squeezing riders toward the verge. I've seen it on fast BC club rides, I've seen it on CTC rides and on an Audax. I've seen it occasionally on the FNRttC (I got forced in to a left turn when a car did an overtake and then run out of road when they wanted to turn left), but these days we've got a bit of a presence, and people tend to not take the piss. 

You might argue that holding up the traffic on the South Circular is 'going too far' but that's life. I stop the traffic so that 100 cyclists can make their way. Think of it as democracy in action.


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## marinyork (16 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397021"]
Third time -you're groundlessly dismissing one of the possible scenarios. Groundlessly because there's no possibility that you could know it not to be the case.

[/quote]

There are plenty of permutations, do you want me to start listing them?


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## marinyork (16 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397027"]
No, that would be daft. Which reinforces the futility of deciding which side of the fence to be on given what we know.
[/quote]

I could work it out, it's just a waste of my time when people know perfectly well that however many cyclists wide they were 1 or 10, if it is a narrow road a driver knows perfectly well how they are supposed to behave - no horns, no overtaking on bends, no overtaking if the road isn't wide enough. I really don't see what can be practically be done about it. It's just how it is.


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## marinyork (16 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397030"]
You're right.

And people also know perfectly well that if cyclists are holding up traffic and there's an opportunity for them to let it pass safely, then it's easy to move over, in the space we all have to share.

The cyclists' actions didn't warrant the response, but it may be that the cyclists' actions weren't ideal.
[/quote]

Opinions vary too much on what is 'aggressive' riding and what is safe - I've been on plenty of urban rides where people have been complaining about cyclists all over the road. What really makes me chuckle is being called an aggressive rider by someone only for in some cases a few seconds later that person (perhaps a gutter hugger) gets into a swearing match with a taxi driver or pedestrian. I see it happening to other people too. 

Similarly as a driver I've been sat in a car and had front seat passengers trying to egg me on to use the horn or having a rant at some cyclist/car that I think wtf are they talking about, they need to chill out. As a front seat passenger I've seen drivers do the same.

As a cyclist I'm perfectly willing to indulge a closer overtake than many others might as long as they do it sensibly and planned - if they knock someone off however they should be looking at very severe consequences. There's far too much of people waiting too long and then lunging past.

I suspect the reactions were from the horn, and a cyclist who drives should really know better and what horn use means in a driving culture like this. In an ideal world you'd get the horn used sensibly and not overused or used aggressively. All of us in the UK know perfectly well this is a much rarer occurance than should be. I've had utterly bizarre discussions with drivers who were nice enough people and very misguided, I just hope none of them came up against someone more aggressive, you can see where some of these things are going a mile off.


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## 400bhp (16 May 2011)

Some of you need to get a grip.


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## HLaB (16 May 2011)

Dayvo said:


> On the continent, motorists toot to let you know of their presence, not to say 'get out of the way' - it seems that is what FM's mate was doing.



I was really surprised and delighted when I got a toot, toot like that the other week :-)


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## Red Light (16 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> Opinions vary too much on what is 'aggressive' riding



And lots of people don't know the difference between aggressive riding and assertive riding.


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## PK99 (16 May 2011)

Mark_Robson said:


> Or alternatively they could have shown some consideration to the motorist and dropped into single file to allow her to get past. I'm surprised at your reply dell as it clearly shows that you have zero empathy or consideration for the motorist. Your posts show alarmingly similar attitudes to the motons who comment on cycling vids on Youtube.



+1


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## PK99 (16 May 2011)

GregCollins said:


> one of my colleagues at work was delayed near Hurstpierpoint by what sounds like the same group; he esitmated it to be 60 strong





CTC rides that i go on, are limited to around 20 to avoid being too large a pack


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## marinyork (16 May 2011)

Red Light said:


> And lots of people don't know the difference between aggressive riding and assertive riding.



Which amounts to the same thing in their minds. They (cyclists) think you're doing it to annoy other people.


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## asterix (16 May 2011)

Dayvo said:


> On the continent, motorists toot to let you know of their presence, not to say 'get out of the way' - it seems that is what FM's mate was doing.




That is true. 

In this part of France they usually do it some distance before reaching me, not just behind me. Mind you it took me a while to get used to the patience demonstrated by French motorists on the country roads round here! 

Tomorrow I drive 1200km back to York. I shall be patient wherever necessary and have allowed myself plenty of time.


----------



## gavintc (16 May 2011)

PK99 said:


> CTC rides that i go on, are limited to around 20 to avoid being too large a pack



The local clubs meet at the same point on a Sat morning and tend to share a similar first 20 km before heading off on their own routes. In the height of summer, there are frequently well over 100 cyclists spinning along as one massive peloton, definitely blocking the road and when we hit the dual carriageway, the group often spills over onto the 2nd lane. It is definitely a moving road block. The local drivers take it pretty well and do manage to get through or past. The acceptance of a group of cyclists is just so completely different over here.


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## screenman (16 May 2011)

Marinyork, you sure jumped on me there for voicing my opinion, from experience and club discussions we have found the 20mph+ head winds we have around here mask the sound of a quiet car coming up from behind to some of us, note I say mask, now when riding in a group many people are concentrating far more on the wheel in front than what might be behind, not correct I know but the truth none the less. Maybe your hearing is super tuned. I invite you to come over here and see what reaction I get when using my horn behind a group of cyclist, maybe I have a nice sounding horn, maybe it is where I live, maybe I use it from far enough away not to cause offense, come to think about it the latter is the more likely one.

Now stop calling me patronising and accept that others may have a different way of dealing with a situation.


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## NormanD (16 May 2011)

bloody roadies, think they own the road because they don't pay road tax


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## screenman (16 May 2011)

I wonder why some people come across more road aggression than others do, maybe I am lucky that I have only been involved with a few cases in 41 years of cycling and racing.


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## marinyork (16 May 2011)

screenman said:


> Now stop calling me patronising and accept that others may have a different way of dealing with a situation.



I accept that others have a different way of dealing with a situation (you obviously don't read my posts), what you said is still very patronising. You know perfectly well a horn will be interpreted as aggression, the person using the horn knew this and was still tempted into using it and they still have the cheek to whinge about the predictable after effects.

As I said it's just the driving culture we live in, I wish we could change it, but we can't.


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## screenman (16 May 2011)

We can change anything if we want to do so enough. Personally I think it is the way a horn is used that can sound aggressive, much the same as a bike bell can sound friendly or otherwise.

So if you were out riding in a group on a windy day at say 20mph would you like the car behind to let you know they were there from about 100yds back? o would you rather they just crept up on you, bearing in mind you may be in the middle of the pack and the guys behind on bikes hanging on for all their might and certainly not looking over their shoulders.


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## chewy (16 May 2011)

Easy way to settle this.

Did the cyclist's have helmets?
If not, they are in the wrong.


Simples ;-)


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## Mark_Robson (16 May 2011)

chewy said:


> Easy way to settle this.
> 
> Did the cyclist's have helmets?
> If not, they are in the wrong.
> ...


ROFL nowt like fuelling the fire!


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## PK99 (16 May 2011)

screenman said:


> We can change anything if we want to do so enough. Personally* I think it is the way a horn is used that can sound aggressive*,* much the same as a bike bell can sound friendly or otherwise*.
> .



toot = I'm here


vs
*
*
*BLARRP! = get out of the fecking way*
*
*
*or*
*
*
Ding ding = I'm here, can i come past please
*
*
*vs*
*
*
*ding ding ding ding ding = get out of the fecking way*
*
*
*
*


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## Chris.IOW (16 May 2011)

marinyork said:


> You know perfectly well a horn will be interpreted as aggression,



You clearly don't drive a Fiat, nothing about that Horn could be considered aggressive!


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## davefb (16 May 2011)

Chris.IOW said:


> You clearly don't drive a Fiat, nothing about that Horn could be considered aggressive!



hehe, yeah, my cars is rubbish as well... i hardly use it,, ( coz i normally hit the wrong bit of the wheel), but sometimes someone does something utterly insane...


so hit the horn, and this pathetic 'parp' comes out....


still,, would be nice to have a 'peep' and a 'HORN!' choice..........


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## Norm (16 May 2011)

chewy said:


> Easy way to settle this.
> 
> Did the cyclist's have helmets?
> If not, they are in the wrong.
> ...


And, if they weren't in hi-viz, they should be locked up...

(just in case that blue touch paper didn't catch with the first match  )


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## totallyfixed (16 May 2011)

1. Never been on a club ride that has six abreast riding.
2. When cycling into a headwind often never heard a car engine behind.
3. Appreciate a short toot from a car horn as per reasons above, nearly always accompanied by a wave after we have moved over.
4. If our club run contains more than 14 riders we split into 2 groups.
5. On some roads singling out can be more dangerous.
6. Aggressive and/or inconsiderate cycling leads to even more aggressive inconsiderate driving, a lose lose situation.

Normally enjoy a good debate but confrontational attitudes out on the road could potentially be dangerous.


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## david k (16 May 2011)

no need for aggression against otheres, people become bullies when in the sfatey of the tin box with wheels, very sad. weak people imo


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## Angelfishsolo (16 May 2011)

+1


totallyfixed said:


> 1. Never been on a club ride that has six abreast riding.
> 2. When cycling into a headwind often never heard a car engine behind.
> 3. Appreciate a short toot from a car horn as per reasons above, nearly always accompanied by a wave after we have moved over.
> 4. If our club run contains more than 14 riders we split into 2 groups.
> ...


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## Mark_Robson (16 May 2011)

totallyfixed said:


> 1. Never been on a club ride that has six abreast riding.
> 2. When cycling into a headwind often never heard a car engine behind.
> 3. Appreciate a short toot from a car horn as per reasons above, nearly always accompanied by a wave after we have moved over.
> 4. If our club run contains more than 14 riders we split into 2 groups.
> ...


+1 that's called mutual respect and compromise isn't a sign of weakness.


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## Alessandro Petacchi (16 May 2011)

There's only one way to sort it out.........FIGHT  .


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## neil earley (17 May 2011)

if you ride 2 abreast on a m/bike its against the law !! so b,,,g,,r them as long as you ride responsible why cant you be safe in a group ps dont condone bullying by either cyclists or car drivers.


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## on the road (17 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> She drives one of those superquiet 'eco' cars, she did not beep her horn out of 'you're holding me up frustration' but becuase she wasn't sure if the cyclist were even aware she was behind them, and was thinking she could be stuck behind them for miles ..
> In total time she was behind them for 17 minutes
> 
> And the original point of my post was that, yes cyclist do ride wide to prevent cars from passing when unsafe, I do so myself, but to block a road, when it is safe to pass, to deliberatly hold up another person & to then call her names, such as bitch & slag to repeat a few, to hope she crashes is not on - She passed slowly & wide, it was warm & she had the windows open, they could see she had children in the car - That is just not acceptable


But you've only got one side of the story.


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## Red Light (17 May 2011)

neil earley said:


> if you ride 2 abreast on a m/bike its against the law !!



Pity its not illegal for drivers to drive around two abreast with an empty passenger seat. If they got rid of that their cars could be much narrower and they would have much less trouble passing. Purely selfish to block the roads because of carrying around three passenger seats that are nearly always empty. ;-ˆ)


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## Red Light (17 May 2011)

on the road said:


> But you've only got one side of the story.



And a story that seems to have an awful lot of detail such as whether the windows were open, how she sounded the horn, who was in the car, how long she was held up etc etc but not about which road it actually happened on (which would allow us to have a look courtesy of Streetview to see how reasonable it was to expect to pass.


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## Jezston (17 May 2011)

totallyfixed said:


> 1. Never been on a club ride that has six abreast riding.
> 2. When cycling into a headwind often never heard a car engine behind.
> 3. Appreciate a short toot from a car horn as per reasons above, nearly always accompanied by a wave after we have moved over.
> 4. If our club run contains more than 14 riders we split into 2 groups.
> ...




+1 again.

I'm not taking sides on this argument, but I have been pretty shocked by some of the attitudes expressed here which can only be adding to the cyclist vs cars 'war' the media like to tell us about.

When I've been out on group rides, even with the local fixie crew that often have some ... shall we say _unconvential _approaches to road use, will still move to let cars pass.

I'm not sure I understand the argument that riding six abreast so that the peleton actually extends into the oncoming lane is in any way justifiable.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 May 2011)

Dayvo said:


> No, but as one peloton, they were preventing traffic from overtaking.
> 
> They (we) don't have a God-given right to dominate one lane of traffic. Common sense should have prevailed and they took to riding single file, allowing the motorist to use their judgement in overtaking at a safe and convenient place, and not being, effectively, told to wait.



I undertand, I think, what your point is but...


On Sunday I drove my mother in law to the shops in my chunkychicken (janey, don't fiats have rubbish horns!). The entire way there, and back, there were cars which according to this logic, were 'preventing traffic from overtaking', by their very presence. This morning on my commute a tractor and trailer were preventing traffic from overtaking* by being there.

I'm outraged.

*Didn't stop King Chump in his crossovermobile from squeezing past me (right behind the trailer) into a non-existent gap. Oh well, another report for Operation Crackdown.....


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## Jezston (17 May 2011)

But a tractor can't magically shrink itself into a width a couple of feet across.

A group of cyclists can.


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## dodgy (17 May 2011)

Funny to see you lot arguing over a 3rd hand story  

I will say though, that I see some fairly surprising positioning and riding from our learned friends in the CTC. Around these parts you can sometimes see them riding in a fairly disorganised line (was going to call it rabble), some 2 abreast, some not but stretched waaaaay down the road. Almost impossible to overtake in a car, and sometimes tricky to overtake on a bike, despite their slow speed.


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## screenman (17 May 2011)

How was the non-existant gap created? was this by the vehicle behind not leaving enough gap? or not dropping back slightly to let the other person in.


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## PpPete (17 May 2011)

Just a point re horns (feeble or otherwise)

However the driver meant it to be interpreted, for me there is only one acceptable response: 

And that's to wave gaily in response, and if the driver passes at the same time, to smile broadly and mouth "Hello" and "have a nice day" 

This cuts both ways.... driver intending to politely make cyclist aware of presence gets an acceptable, civilized and friendly response, whilst the driver who intended it as "get out my f...g way" gets the message "toot all you like mate, I'm having a good time, fresh air, exercise, good company, and nothing you can do is going to spoil my day" which works better than the usual Churchillian salute...


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## Ticktockmy (17 May 2011)

Edburton road is a rather pleasant road, whilst it is narrow, it does have plenty of passing places, some are quite long so with a bit of give and take from both parties, she should have been able to pass. I can understand the ladies frustration because the road does not have any “white lines” and in this day and age , motorist do seem to have problems judging time, space and speed without the help of road markings.

I think the problem was a bit of frustration and adrenalin on both sides, and a short gentle toot by the lady would have told the cyclist she was there, which would have given them time to sort the group out so she could have passed.

Of course the real problem was the two children being in the car, Children in cars cause the mum to drive in a caring manner, which means overtaking must be done at a slow speed, that the road requires to be at least 50 foot wide, and no other traffic must no nearer than 30 foot.


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## thelawnet (17 May 2011)

JonnyBlade said:


> 4 and 6 abreast !!!!!!! And then the abuse .............. horns piss me off big time and they are quite startling but not exactly 2 abreast are they. If I was a cop I would have spoken to the cyclists because the OP suggests they had a total disregard for anyone else on the road and in fact encouraged, by their actions, other road users to have a go.




It's unlikely that they were 4 or 6 abreast.


Usually what happens is that the cyclists are riding in a pack something like this:


http://dcrandall.fil...cific-ocean.jpg


Which is of course two abreast and entirely legal (also filling one side of a country road quite easily), but the motorist sees lots of cyclists and decides they are 6 abreast or something equally absurd, as if you'd want to go down a country road six abreast when two is more than enough for safety.


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## thelawnet (17 May 2011)

Jezston said:


> But a tractor can't magically shrink itself into a width a couple of feet across.
> 
> A group of cyclists can.





Bicycles don't have several tonnes of metal protecting them though, so are perfectly within their rights to ride within the limits of their side of the road.


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## HLaB (17 May 2011)

I don't know the road but is it even possible to have 4 to 6 riders side by side, for a length of time?


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## theclaud (17 May 2011)

Wot thelawnet said. The six-abreast thing sounds like cobblers.


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## phil_hg_uk (17 May 2011)

You couldnt fit 6 riders side by side safely on most of the roads round ere.


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## Jezston (17 May 2011)

HLaB said:


> I don't know the road but is it even possible to have 4 to 6 riders side by side, for a length of time?










Yes


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## phil_hg_uk (17 May 2011)

Jezston said:


> Yes



Thats an organized race on a traffic free road, like normal people out for a ride on a sunday ride like that


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## HLaB (17 May 2011)

Jezston said:


> Yes



I should have elaborated, can amateurs on a traffic'ed road ride 4-6 abreast for any reasonable period of time


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## cd365 (17 May 2011)

There seems to be an ongoing war between some car drivers and some cyclists


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## on the road (17 May 2011)

Considering that the road was narrow, then it would be impossible to ride six abreast, even four abreast would be risky.

I've been on club rides on narrow country roads and we often ride two abreast, to fit a third in would mean cyclists getting Uncomfortably close to each other, there's a risk of someone bringing someone else down, so to ride 4 to 6 abreast would be asking for trouble.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 May 2011)

Jezston said:


> But a tractor can't magically shrink itself into a width a couple of feet across.
> 
> A group of cyclists can.



I'm two feet wide on my bike on my own. How does my mate ride alongside me in a couple of feet? How many metres long would this make the two-by-two procession if 50+ cyclists are involved? How big a layby would they need to pull into if pulling off the road?



thelawnet said:


> It's unlikely that they were 4 or 6 abreast.



I pushed my colleague hard y'day, and pressed him on it again again today. When he was in second place in the queue of cars he is adamant that the peloton was variously 4, 5, and 6 riders wide at the rear and occupied the whole width of the entire carriageway at times whilst only occuping the left most portion at other times.




HLaB said:


> I don't know the road but is it even possible to have 4 to 6 riders side by side, for a length of time?



Yes, easily, happens a lot on club rides.



phil_hg_uk said:


> Thats an organized race on a traffic free road, like normal people out for a ride on a sunday ride like that



normal people out for a sunday ride in my club often ride like that on open roads. 


Sometimes a rolling roadblock is the safest option. If that is the option these cyclists chose to take, even if it conflicts with HC, letter of law, etc., well, in my book, safety trumps everything and motorists, and I am one, can go hang.


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## adscrim (17 May 2011)

Jezston said:


> Yes



Is this peleton 6 abreast at any point? It's hard to tell but I think the largest number side by side here is 5. Overlapping means the group is wider that 6 but there doesn't appear to be six side by side.


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## abo (17 May 2011)

Some people are self-centred peanuts, both on bikes and behind the wheel of a car. The roads are there to be shared; people should facilitate each other's smooth progress wherever possible. That's my philosophy anyway; after all everyone is just trying to get where they are going without being killed and I can't see the point of being all wound up and angry when I get there.

Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way


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## HLaB (17 May 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Yes, easily, happens a lot on club rides.



You must have better roads than we do on our club runs, with all the clubs I've been with 2 is the normal and occasionally a 3rd will go by (to get to the back or the front of the pack). You certainly wouldn't get 4+ easily up here on twisty trafficked roads.


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## dellzeqq (17 May 2011)

crikey! 

I had to rush away last night, fix my wife's front tyre, make tea, cycle to Paddington, take the last train to Cardiff, cycle to the Millenium Plaza, then cycle to Mumbles via Llantwit Major, Ewemmy, Port Talbot and Swansea, have a bite to eat, grab a couple of hours sleep, cycle to Swansea railway station, take the train back to Paddington, cycle home and send out some FNRttC e-mails as in 

*Claudine*_ and I did a night-time recce last night. We went from Cardiff to Mumbles against a southwesterly gale. Claudine assures me that winds from the southwest are a rarity in South Wales, and that all those trees leaning to the northeast have been attacked by Terror Topiarists. _

_Be that as it may, the forecast for the early hours of Saturday is for *light southwesterly winds*, *warm temperatures* and just a bit of *misty rain*. A lightweight waterproof is a must, and, if you wear spectacles, a peaked cap would be sensible._

_The *good news* is that there wasn’t a lot of traffic about. From Cardiff Bay to Bonvilston we probably saw 20-30 cars. From Bonvilston to Ewemmy, which is about fourteen miles, we saw *not one*. _

_The Tesco toilets were open and *sparkly clean*. _

_A lot of the roads between Bonvilston, Ewemmy and Nottage are overshadowed. Even if the skies are clear you’re going to need lights fit for the job and fresh batteries. Those same roads have rustic surfaces, sharp bends and sudden ups and downs – leave space between you and the rider in front, and let the rider behind know what’s going on – *signals* here http://fnrttc.blogsp...m/p/lights.html to which I’d add ‘*gravel*!’ which, at one point, presents a bit of a challenge. If you have a powerful rear light angle it down or cover it with clear tape and set it to constant rather than flashing. Watch the rear lights ahead of you – they’ll tell you when you need to change from big to small ring. Don’t, please, overtake on the left. Ever._

_We should reach our *halfway stop *about ten to three and our destination about seven. There’ll be photo-opportunities along the way, not least a view of Port Talbot by night, and a snazzy new bridge in the centre of Swansea. The views across the bay to Mumbles Pier, our *destination*, are wonderful._

_See you at *23.30* in the Millenium Plaza. *If you’re going to be late*, please text me on 07776 210 731. *If you’re not going to turn up please let me know now* – the halfway stop needs an accurate headcount. If you’re catching the late train in to Cardiff then remember that you can get out of the station on the southern side and that the ride to Millenium Plaza takes about ten minutes - ETA by text please._

_Looking forward to seeing you on Friday night_

_Simon_

that's called* 'riding a bike'* as opposed to *'complaining about other people riding a bike'*. And, to be clear, nothing will pass us on narrow roads. Nothing at all.


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## dellzeqq (17 May 2011)

[QUOTE 1397028"]
Well if that's your view then you're either incredibly lucky, or you're allowing your bias to take over. I've only ever been on a couple of group rides and I've seen cyclists throwing their weight around. And it's a regular observation of single cyclists on the road.

We're not all perfect Dell. Let's not pretend, eh? It's not a helpful position to come from.
[/quote]nobody's pretending to be perfect, so stop being silly. I've got to write a note to two newcomers this afternoon, asking them not to ride in a certain way, which they did, I am perfectly sure, because they knew no better. 

As you say - you've only been on a couple of group rides. I've organised loads and been on loads more. I've never, repeat never, other than on CM, seen a group go out of its way to be awkward. I've seen lots organise themselves to reduce risk, and, unfortunately, I've seen lots that failed to do so (including, on occasions, rides that I've organised) and got cut up as a result, on one occasion resulting in injury.


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## Moodyman (17 May 2011)

Blimey Dell, It must have been windy for the letters in your FNRttC email to bend over.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 May 2011)

HLaB said:


> You must have better roads than we do on our club runs, with all the clubs I've been with 2 is the normal and occasionally a 3rd will go by (to get to the back or the front of the pack). You certainly wouldn't get 4+ easily up here on twisty trafficked roads.



It isn't the norm but it does happen, and it has happened on the lanes in vicinity of the 'incident' in the OP. On said roads I've even blocked potential overtakers where I've judged their Nissan Micra, or whatever, cannot do 20mph to 60 mph in 50 metres or 4 seconds, no matter how hard they chomp at the bit or lean forward in the driving seat, and is therefore likely to take one of my mates out if it all goes pear shaped. 

Some of the newer beamers German cars in sussex clearly have a new in-dash radar device that allows them to 'see' around blind bends when overtaking slower road users. The drivers would not be trusting to luck surely?


----------



## rich p (17 May 2011)

FWIW, I ride that road once a week at least and have done for the last number of years. There is no way you could ride 6, or even 4, abreast unless you had a death wish . It twists and turns, is barely physically wide enough for 3 across, has a variable road surface and a number of crests. If we ride 2 abreast on it, I have to move into single file for oncoming cars, let alone tractors and vans. 

The fact that the OPs friend is clearly exaggerrating for effect, makes me doubt the veracity of the story.


----------



## dellzeqq (17 May 2011)

rich p said:


> *FWIW, I ride that road once a week at least and have done for the last number of years. There is no way you could ride 6, or even 4, abreast unless you had a death wish* . It twists and turns, is barely physically wide enough for 3 across, has a variable road surface and a number of crests. If we ride 2 abreast on it, I have to move into single file for oncoming cars, let alone tractors and vans.
> 
> The fact that the OPs friend is clearly exaggerrating for effect, makes me doubt the veracity of the story.


exactly. There are bits of it I wouldn't ride two abreast, because whatever calming effect you have on cars coming from behind you, you take a chance on something coming round a blind bend in the opposite direction. Approaching a blind bend I reckon you single out and take the primary.

It is a lovely road, though.....if only it went somewhere!


----------



## HLaB (17 May 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Some of the newer beamers German cars in sussex clearly have a new in-dash radar device that allows them to 'see' around blind bends when overtaking slower road users. The drivers would not be trusting to luck surely?



They've got them in Clackmannan too (just over the border from Fife) but they are faulty. Me and the rest of Dunfermline Cycling Club was riding down the twisty Dollar Road (easily 25mph+ and had been for some time) a few weeks back when somebody had a momentary brain lapse and went for the overtake on the wrong side of the road, she stopped her car 6 inches from a car coming up the hill. She was very lucky that the oncoming car was alert and going reasonably. Give her due she learnt from her stupid (potentially fatal ! and as you say it'd probably be the one's in lycra to come off worse) mistake and overtook very cautiously further down the road.


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## rich p (17 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> exactly. There are bits of it I wouldn't ride two abreast, because whatever calming effect you have on cars coming from behind you, you take a chance on something coming round a blind bend in the opposite direction. Approaching a blind bend I reckon you single out and take the primary.
> 
> *It is a lovely road, though.....if only it went somewhere*!




It does! It goes to Upper Beeding, Bramber over the roundabout and down the equally quiet Coombes Road past Lancing College and through to Shoreham - a beautiful road.


----------



## JonnyBlade (17 May 2011)

I find it quite odd within this discussion that many, rather than condone or support the supposed action, have decided that indeed it never happened





We can only make an informed presumption supported by the evidence given. How are we to know if it is fact or not. I still maintain that we have to share the road with other forms of transport and if we block that road, whether by 2,3,4,5 or 6 bikes, we are going to get some grief.


----------



## Red Light (17 May 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Some of the newer beamers German cars in sussex clearly have a new in-dash radar device that allows them to 'see' around blind bends when overtaking slower road users. The drivers would not be trusting to luck surely?



Has anyone else noticed that Audis seem to have become the new BMWs as far as driving standards are concerned?


----------



## Mad at urage (18 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> Was talking with a lady who I used to work with today, she is a regular cyclist, rides to school with her children & out most weekends on their bikes.
> She told me about an incident on Sunday morning, she was driving near Fulking and came up behind a group of cyclists, they were at that point _6 a breast accross the road, filing the left hand lane_, the road was quite narrow & bendy and she didn't feel it safe to overtake, after about 1/4 of a mile, 2 of the group dropped back, but the other 4 just spread out to occupy the space, she said that after another 1/4 mile she got so cross she beeped her horn several times, which obvioulsy annoyed the group as they slowed down.
> She wasn't in any hurry to get to her destination, but felt this was really bad form on the riders part, she eventauly managed to pass them on a straight part, but was given much abuse, rude lanaguage & gestures by the cyclist as she did, she had her 2 children 9 & 5 in the car with her.
> It's behaviour likes this that gives cyclist a bad name...Why do some riders insist of behaving in this manner?


Similar thing happened to me last w/e, driving through Shropshire, a group of riders were in front of me on a narrow road and I didn't feel it safe to overtake. At the time I was in a hurry to get to an appointment.

So I dropped back and waited until it was safe to pass*; this took about two miles. I simply decided to concentrate on driving safely rather than getting frustrated, but I was about 5 minutes late for the meeting and must have been behind them for maybe 8 - 10 minutes. That's just tough I'm afraid and comes of having to share this world with others. 

Personally I don't see why people have a problem with waiting. It did irritate the driver behind me, who after about five minutes decided to overtake me and squeeze in behind the group - and then sat there unable to overtake .

Re " _6 a breast accross the road, filing the left hand lane_, the road was quite narrow & bendy and she didn't feel it safe to overtake, after about 1/4 of a mile, 2 of the group dropped back, but the other 4 just spread out to occupy the space"
This is how drivers often *mis*report the cyclists they see - had it done to me ("You were in the midddle of the road" when I was in the middle of the lane). Were these cyclists "6 abreast across the road" or "6 abreast across the lane" - I suspect the latter. As for "6 abreast" itself I find this unlikely as there appear to have been only six riders ("2 of the group dropped back, but the other 4 just spread out to occupy the space"), so I suspect that they were riding in echelon (so that each was positioned successively to the left or right of the one in front) which often appears to following vehicles to be riding side by side. IMO that explains their riding like that.


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## Jezston (18 May 2011)

Red Light said:


> Has anyone else noticed that Audis seem to have become the new BMWs as far as driving standards are concerned?




I keep hearing this, but I still see the biggest examples of extreme deliberate driver douchery from BMW drivers.


(also my mum drives an Audi)


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## theclaud (18 May 2011)

Jezston said:


> I keep hearing this, but I still see the biggest examples of *extreme deliberate driver douchery from BMW drivers*.



Nah. These guys have got nothing on drivers of Mini Coopers and VW Beetles. ****wits.


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## Rhythm Thief (18 May 2011)

theclaud said:


> Nah. These guys have got nothing on drivers of Mini Coopers and VW Beetles. ****wits.



New or old? New "Mini Coopers" of course _are_ BMWs.


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## theclaud (18 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> New or old? New "Mini Coopers" of course _are_ BMWs.



New ones mostly. And yes, but you knew what I meant...


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## snailracer (18 May 2011)

I was cycling to work the other day and came across a long line of slow-moving cars that _refused to pull over and get out of my way - even after I rang my bell at them! _Now that's inconsiderate.


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## lukesdad (18 May 2011)

Blimey I almost forgot ! Friday night , enemy stormtroopers approaching from the East. We ll group in the hills and attack at dawn.


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## Rhythm Thief (19 May 2011)

I've decided that because I wasn't there and didn't see the incident, I really don't know enough to comment on it. Judging from the nine pages of replies, an awful lot of you must have been watching from the roadside.


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## asterix (19 May 2011)

Phew made it! My 1200 km trip passed uneventfully, more or less, never exceeded 75 mph (my van doesn't like it) and had a few idiot tailgaters. One very aggressive blue van with Polish plates. Half an hour near Rouen, there he was just before a roundabout stopped behind an HGV and discussing his future with a bunch of Gendarmes (don't know what happened there - someone reported him?). Nearing the channel ports plenty of upmarket Britmobiles exceeding the 130 km/h limit by loads, although the worst was a Belgian in, yes, an Audi. Then at the chunnel there some of them are catching my train!


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## Zandranna (19 May 2011)

If the road was truly wide enough to ride 6 abreast, then it would have been wide enough for the cyclists to drop back to 2 abreast and the woman still have room to have passed them safely. If the story is true in every sense then I do feel that the cyclists were deliberately being difficult.

I get really angry with cyclists that give all of us a bad name, and each cyclist that does something stupid or inconsiderate are making more and more motorists loath us. The more motorists that loath us the less safe our roads are because those motorist then don't give us an inch.

As for being stuck behind cyclists. My Daughter was late getting to me the other day because she got stuck behind an old boy driving his car at 18 miles an hour for about 3 miles. There was nowhere for her to overtake and she just had to wait for the silly so and so to turn off. She didn't hoot or attempt to over take dangerously, she just plodded along behind him along with the rest of the cars that had joined the queue.

Both parties in this story's description I feel were in the wrong. 

I was riding up a hill the other day very slowly in 1st gear and behind me was a massive articulated lorry. With me riding a trike I take up quite a bit of room and for a good 3 minutes he was stuck behind me, yet he kept his distance and his patience until we came to a bus pull in where I pulled into allowing him to pass. We gave a pleasant wave to each other, him thanking me for pulling in and me thanking him for being patience. A little tolerance from all parties goes a long way to make being on the roads more pleasant.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

I suggest the lady report her experience to Operation Crackdown


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

theclaud said:


> Nah. These guys have got nothing on drivers of Mini Coopers and VW Beetles. ****wits.




come off it claud, they ain't that bright! well not around here anyway where the plastic flower on the beetle dash seems to indicate a certain rainbows and unicorns tra la la la la style of care and attention to driving.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I've decided that because I wasn't there and didn't see the incident, I really don't know enough to comment on it. Judging from the nine pages of replies, an awful lot of you must have been watching from the roadside.




That's 80% of the posts in the entire forum made invalid!


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## theclaud (19 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I've decided that *because I wasn't there and didn't see the incident, I really don't know enough to comment on it*. Judging from the nine pages of replies, an awful lot of you must have been watching from the roadside.



I think we have enough information to see that the driver's report of what happened has all the classic symptoms of being a load of old cobblers. What else do you feel you need to know?


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## Norm (19 May 2011)

theclaud said:


> I think we have enough information to see that many people wear cyclist blinkers and can't see any possibility that someone on two wheels does anything wrong. What else do you feel you need to know?


I think there were a few typos in your post, TC.


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## theclaud (19 May 2011)

Norm said:


> I think there were a few typos in your post, TC.



There certainly weren't. One cannot tell, of course, whether the cyclists behaved with exemplary courtesy or were being a bit bloody-minded. Luckily it's irrelevant - being bloody-minded is a useful part of any cyclist's repertoire, and allowing the vehicle to pass is their call.


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## philipbh (19 May 2011)

theclaud said:


> There certainly weren't. One cannot tell, of course, whether the cyclists behaved with exemplary courtesy or were being a bit bloody-minded. Luckily it's irrelevant - being bloody-minded is a useful part of any cyclist's repertoire, and allowing the vehicle to pass is their call.




What is true (by FM's original post) that after just 1/2 a mile of being "blocked" , the driver (who we are told was not in a hurry) "got so cross"

The driver lost any argument against the cyclists behaviour at that point (for me at least)


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## threebikesmcginty (19 May 2011)

philipbh said:


> What is true (by FM's original post) that after just 1/2 a mile of being "blocked" , the driver (who we are told was not in a hurry) "got so cross"
> 
> The driver lost any argument against the cyclists behaviour at that point (for me at least)



It's really embarrasing when you've slowed down for a group of cyclists and are happy to wait but the idiots in vehicles behind you start blasting on the horn.


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## Rhythm Thief (19 May 2011)

theclaud said:


> I think we have enough information to see that the driver's report of what happened has all the classic symptoms of being a load of old cobblers. What else do you feel you need to know?



I'd simply be interested to know (as opposed to "invent") how much of the OP is true and how much is embellished. And how much is down to a driver misinterpreting the actions of the cyclists and how much to the cyclists behaving like supercillious arses. As I said, not having seen the incident in question I don't _know_ any of these things, so comment seems a bit pointless.


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## on the road (19 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I'd simply be interested to know (as opposed to "invent") how much of the OP is true and how much is embellished. And how much is down to a driver misinterpreting the actions of the cyclists and how much to the cyclists behaving like supercillious arses. As I said, not having seen the incident in question I don't _know_ any of these things, so comment seems a bit pointless.



It is possible to comment on it without having actually been there. For example, how wide would the road have to be to be able to string 6 cyclists across it? IMO and from experience of riding in a group it's not possible on a narrow road.


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## philipbh (19 May 2011)

threebikesmcginty said:


> It's really embarrasing when you've slowed down for a group of cyclists and are happy to wait but the idiots in vehicles behind you start blasting on the horn.




Almost as if the deployment of such a device will help to resolve the "incident" ahead 

If David Harmon has the copyright on the "magic spanner" - I wonder who will be first to nominate the "Magic Horn"


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## theclaud (19 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I'd simply be interested to know (as opposed to "invent") how much of the OP is true and how much is embellished. And how much is down to a driver misinterpreting the actions of the cyclists and how much to the cyclists behaving like supercillious arses. As I said, not having seen the incident in question I don't _know_ any of these things, so comment seems a bit pointless.



It's not a truth commission. What interests me is not the incident itself but the meanings of its representation - here, now, on the forum. The driver, if we are to take it all at face value, chose to relate the incident to the OP, and the OP chose to post it here, framing it in a certain way (as an example of the bad behaviour of cyclists "giving us all a bad name"). The cyclists may or may not have been supercilious, the driver may or may not be pretending to be patient and reasonable while exhibiting signs of suppressed anger and hostility towards cyclists. It doesn't really matter - what matters is contesting the function of the story as posted.


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## kedab (19 May 2011)

ooh this has been a good read


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## rich p (19 May 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> I'd simply be interested to know (as opposed to "invent") how much of the OP is true and how much is embellished. And how much is down to a driver misinterpreting the actions of the cyclists and how much to the cyclists behaving like supercillious arses. As I said, not having seen the incident in question I don't _know_ any of these things, so comment seems a bit pointless.




Well, RT, I know the road very, very well and *know* that the OP's friend must have been talking bollix (or exaggerrating if you prefer) as I pointed out earlier. I hope this post isn't deemed as pointless as everyone elses'


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## Red Light (19 May 2011)

rich p said:


> Well, RT, I know the road very, very well and *know* that the OP's friend must have been talking bollix (or exaggerrating if you prefer) as I pointed out earlier. I hope this post isn't deemed as pointless as everyone elses'



I'm inclined to agree without knowing the road in question. The original report was of being held up for half a mile. When I pointed out that probably meant a delay of all of 20-40 seconds it suddenly became a 17 minute hold up over 4+ miles. Funny that wasn't mentioned at the outset but only after the story was challenged. I wonder if there even is an OP's friend or whether the whole thing was made up. It echoes almost verbatim a post (copied below) on the CTC forum a couple of weeks ago about a regular occurrence near Stevenage.






> So a friend is being blocked by cyclists....​My female friend works at the weekend helping the elderly & infirm with personal care, helping to feed them & other domestic chores so timing is extremely important between jobs in any case.
> 
> Her problem is that she encounters a group of cyclists on Saturdays whom are riding 5 sometimes 6 abreast on a particular road stopping her from getting past for 3-4 minutes. She's a very good driver and has always asked me what she should do in a given situation with regard to cyclists but she is very frustrated that they will not at least move into two abreast so she can overtake with plenty of space in the other lane.
> To me it sounds like a deliberate attempt to block another road user when there's absolutely no need to do so, she has seen some of the riders look back and then still maintain their stance.
> ...


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

I now have four eye witnesses at work (120+staff) claiming sightings of a large group of cyclists riding en masse riding several riders abreast, reports vary as to precise numbers, rolling road block stylee along the the some of roads immediately north of the south downs on the weekend. From east of Hurstpierpoint to well west of Poynings. Responses have vaired from 'faffing faffer faffwits getting in my way AGAIN' to 'what a spectacular and splendid sight'. Responses seem to vary in accordance with how hard the teller is trying to get a rise from me as I appear to be their appointed authority on all things cycling and 'one of them' and thus responsible for the behaviour of every cyclist they see. Of course.

On a happier note someone here was heading south thru Wivelsfield/Ditchling early doors Saturday, I suspect some form of 'drive of shame', and complimented FNRttC for its good order on the road and the smiling faces atop the beacon.


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## funnymummy (19 May 2011)

I had chosen no to bother making any more comments on this thread, as everyone seems to have an opinion on something that no-one saw with their own eyes. 
I did not see it, only repeated what a work colleague told me, she is a truthful person & not someone given to wild exagerations.


But there are several comments that I now feel need responding too, after that i shall commnet no more & TBBH I wish i'd never writen about the dammend incident, I actulay feel quite offended that it has been insinutaed by several on here that I have made the whole thing up.



rich p said:


> Well, RT, I know the road very, very well and *know* that the OP's friend must have been talking bollix (or exaggerrating if you prefer) as I pointed out earlier. I hope this post isn't deemed as pointless as everyone elses'



No you don't...(I pointed this out before but that commnet seems to have been ignored) You cannot know the road in question, as I never mentioned which road, In fact I do not know which road, only that she was on her way to Fulking.
I may in conversation say I was on my way to Fulking, but I could have been on the road I live on or the road in Fulking, without a road name - Which when I see her next i may ask just for my own curiosty, you cannot say you know the road in my OP at all.



Red Light said:


> The original report was of being held up for half a mile. When I pointed out that probably meant a delay of all of 20-40 seconds it suddenly became a 17 minute hold up over 4+ miles.


I didn't say 1/2 a mile, I said after a total of 1/2 mile she beeped her horn, I never mentioned anything about 4 miles at all. I then replied that in total it was 17 mins from when she first spotted thre cyclist til she managed to pass them

BUT, it would seem from Gregs post...



GregCollins said:


> I now have four eye witnesses at work (120+staff) claiming sightings of a large group of cyclists riding en masse riding several riders abreast, reports vary as to precise numbers, rolling road block stylee along the the some of roads immediately north of the south downs on the weekend. From east of Hurstpierpoint to well west of Poynings. Responses have vaired from 'faffing faffer faffwits getting in my way AGAIN' to 'what a spectacular and splendid sight'. Responses seem to vary in accordance with how hard the teller is trying to get a rise from me as I appear to be their appointed authority on all things cycling and 'one of them' and thus responsible for the behaviour of every cyclist they see. Of course.


 That there have been other reports of large groups out & about in that area on the same day, so maybe my friend may have misinterpretted the way the cyclist were riding, it has been suggested that they could have been riding in staggere formation, which from a drivers perspective may have looked like 6 abreast.. 
So please, could we stop with the 'she made it up, she's lying, it's all bollox' comments

And Thnank you Claud




theclaud said:


> It's not a truth commission. What interests me is not the incident itself but the meanings of its representation - here, now, on the forum. The driver, if we are to take it all at face value, chose to relate the incident to the OP, and the OP chose to post it here, framing it in a certain way (as an example of the bad behaviour of cyclists "giving us all a bad name"). The cyclists may or may not have been supercilious, the driver may or may not be pretending to be patient and reasonable while exhibiting signs of suppressed anger and hostility towards cyclists. It doesn't really matter - what matters is contesting the function of the story as posted.


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## GrumpyGregry (19 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> BUT, it would seem from Gregs post...



fwiw, two of them sought me out to moan at me about it including someone who 'got' me as I walked through the door first thing Monday....


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## asterix (20 May 2011)

My ride yesterday to Cawood was very encouraging.

First there is an old swing bridge over the river with only one lane - a pinch point. It was my right of way despite which I expected the oncoming car to go first as they so often do there. Nevertheless it stopped and waited! As I passed I gave it a wave.

Next, a dust cart flashed me to let me know it would wait at a parked car to let me go! He too could have squeezed by asserting might over right. As I passed I gave it a wave.

Finally, the lights are bust in Cawood. At the X-roads 3 cars arrived. All gave way to me! I gave them a wave!

Patient motorists - in Cawood anyway. 

(York to Cawood and back, c.24 miles in 70 mins so over 17 mins I could have done nearly 6 miles)


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## asterix (20 May 2011)

funnymummy said:


> Was talking with a lady who I used to work with today, she is a regular cyclist, rides to school with her children & out most weekends on their bikes.
> She told me about an incident on Sunday morning, she was driving near Fulking and came up behind a group of cyclists, they were at that point 6 a breast accross the road, filing the left hand lane, the road was quite narrow & bendy and she didn't feel it safe to overtake, after about 1/4 of a mile, 2 of the group dropped back, but the other 4 just spread out to occupy the space, she said that after another 1/4 mile she got so cross she beeped her horn several times, which obvioulsy annoyed the group as they slowed down.
> She wasn't in any hurry to get to her destination, but felt this was really bad form on the riders part, she eventauly managed to pass them on a straight part, but was given much abuse, rude lanaguage & gestures by the cyclist as she did, she had her 2 children 9 & 5 in the car with her.
> It's behaviour likes this that gives cyclist a bad name...Why do some riders insist of behaving in this manner?




Beeping your horn in the way described is hardly good manners, is it? 

Your post makes it sound as if the driver was suffering from the impatience that gets motorists a bad name and posting it on the forum you got the responses you must surely have expected so why complain?


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## asterix (20 May 2011)

..and there's another thing! 

By hooting repeatedly at the cyclist she was of course setting her kids a pretty bad example, no? 

At least the kids would have received the lesson that if you are rude to folks they may very well be rude back!

If she wasn't in a hurry why the flip couldn't she have just waited? Or was it her bounden duty to reinforce the superiority of the motor car over all other road users?


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## benb (20 May 2011)

We don't need to know the road to know that claims of riding 6 abreast must be exaggerated.

But I do agree that people should hold off on "she's full of crap, she's lying" posts, as they are not very helpful.


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## dellzeqq (20 May 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Blimey I almost forgot ! Friday night , enemy stormtroopers approaching from the East. We ll group in the hills and attack at dawn.


a great image.....I look forward to forming a phalanx of bicycles and repelling your Welsh Woadishness.


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## lukesdad (20 May 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> a great image.....I look forward to forming a phalanx of bicycles and repelling your Welsh Woadishness.



Just make sure RP s riding shotgun so he can be picked off first


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## supercooper (20 May 2011)

My link read this


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