# New Indicator System



## Griffalo2003 (4 Mar 2018)

Dear All,

I am currently in the process of designing a new bike signalling system. I was wondering if anyone has any comments/ideas on this, with any possible requirements, downsides etc etc. Thank you for being part of my research.

Regards,
Charlie


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## Markymark (4 Mar 2018)

Griffalo2003 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I am currently in the process of designing a new bike signalling system. I was wondering if anyone has any comments/ideas on this, with any possible requirements, downsides etc etc. Thank you for being part of my research.
> 
> ...


Yes. Don’t bother. It’s a silly idea, sorry. 

Car drivers often don’t bother to look. An indicator they’re not expecting to see will be even less likely to be noticed. 

And please please stop trying to make bikes more like cars.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Mar 2018)

The arm mark 1 works perfectly fine.


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## Markymark (4 Mar 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> The arm mark 1 works perfectly fine.


Even then I indicate far less than I used to. When I used to indicate left it was like a red rag to the car behind to overtake me on the turn. Dangerous. Best not to indicate as leaving them guessing means less likely fir anyone to attempt something stupid.


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## Brandane (4 Mar 2018)

I already have a signalling system fitted to my bike; it's the same as that fitted to BMW's..
Seriously; forget it and file your plans in the nearest bin. No cyclist over the age of 10 wants car type accessories fitted to their bike, particularly when they're not going to serve any useful purpose. If a signal is required, we have arms.


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## winjim (4 Mar 2018)

I can see there might possibly be some benefit to cyclists with disabilities, restricted movement etc, or they're a fun toy for kids, but otherwise, if they were a decent idea then one of the many iterations that have been tried so far would have taken off.


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## hopless500 (4 Mar 2018)

Plus indicators seem to have been removed from most cars so putting them on a bike isn't going to achieve much.


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## classic33 (4 Mar 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> The arm mark 1 works perfectly fine.


I hope to stay with the Mk I.

Indicators would be to close together on a bike.







http://www.volvoab.com/image/bike-lights-for-night-riding/riding-a-bicycle-at-night-is-a


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## slowmotion (4 Mar 2018)

Any bike indicator is pretty much doomed to be far less noticeable than an outstretched arm waving about. A wildly wobbling rider helps you get noticed too.


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## Foghat (4 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> When I used to indicate left it was like a red rag to the car behind to overtake me on the turn.



It's also frequently a red rag to cars coming the other way that are waiting/intending to turn right into the road that the cyclist is turning left into (or crossing from the right if it's a crossroads) - they will often pull a stupid and dangerous move in an attempt to beat the cyclist rather than give way and wait as they are required to do. So yes, not indicating left is often the safest option for cyclists.


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## Tangoup51 (4 Mar 2018)

Griffalo2003 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I am currently in the process of designing a new bike signalling system. I was wondering if anyone has any comments/ideas on this, with any possible requirements, downsides etc etc. Thank you for being part of my research.
> 
> ...



Charlie, if you HAVE to design a new bike signalling system you need to know the obvious drawbacks of implementing a conventional indicator system from a vehicle to a bicycle (note: not saying bicycles aren't vehicles.)

The most obvious drawback which others have said is that "No one bothers to look for them" I,e, no one bothers to look at indicators on bicycles. However, That is true and false at the same time; No one has created a significant enough signalling system that can safely grab the attention of drivers, who are _Not _looking for indicators on bicycles.

The reason being, when you create a signalling system for cyclists, it must not be hefty or impede any cycling ability. That fundamental requirement restricts 'Size', 'Weight & Power' of the signalling system.

The 'Size' issue is best reflected on current models of indicators that attach to the bike VIA The seat post, facing backward, they are smaller width than the saddle as to not impede pedalling, that lack of width and being so central to the rider means it's incredibly hard for an unaware driver to distinguish a directional change between Left & Right, -- since you're not indicating by lighting up the left/right-side of your bicycle, you're indicating by lighting the left/right-side of the centre line of your bicycle. to compensate for this, these indicators typically use Arrows Like in the picture below,







Which is an issue because Drivers Are Not Looking For Arrows & Even so, it's not indicative enough of the direction of intended travel.



The 'Weight & Power' Issue, ties in with all variety of indicator systems that do not attach to bicycles, but rather your clothing or even your helmet.

This is too various and general to get into as a discussion here, but alot of it is common sense.
You wouldn't integrate a heavy, powerful signalling system into a bicycle helmet .. as it'd impede both helmet structural safety and stress on your neck, etc.

So take common sense and it'll get you far.

That said, here's some other tips I want to share with you, if you choose to pursue indicators on bicycles.

The best indicating system is one that can actually mimic car indicators best, as that's what drivers will recognise for, even when they're not looking for them.






... Which'd be furthest left / right of the bicycle as possible. (these are MTB/Hybrid handlebar-end indicators as you see in the picture)
But, for Road Bikes & their drop bars, this type of indicator becomes trickier. (which is where people turned to putting indicators on left/right parts of your clothing.)

But with this type of indicator, you wouldn't need to create 'Arrows' like on the first picture, so you can utilise the Whole LED unit to create a huge blinking light.

Sticking with copying cars, you can't put indicators like that on say, the sides of the rear wheel dropout, or sides of the front fork, as it wouldn't be visible from the front / rear.. It must cover all angles.

Which'd leave only two places left to put an indicator that'd cover MTBs, Hybrids & Road Bikes, Your pedals, which, is hard because of the 'abuse' pedals go through, but it is very possible to store significant battery / led power around the pedal axle and have LEDs facing both behind, forward & the sides.

The only issue with that, other than creating a robust design, is they will be subject to alot of dirt & debris that might block view of the LEDs.


The last place being your clothes, anywhere else on the bicycle would require alot more work than would be profitable.


In all cases, I hope you find whatever you're looking for, Have Fun & Enjoy your projects.


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## ianrauk (5 Mar 2018)

... . And they keep trying to get cyclists to buy crap that's not needed.


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## Drago (5 Mar 2018)

No cyclist ever thought, "gosh, I wish I had indicators."

Then there is the negative safety issue, where their use becomes a substitute for looking properly, as it tends to have done among car drivers.

Design something useful, like puncture proof tyres that ride well, or a hub gear system as light as a derailleur set up.


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## byegad (5 Mar 2018)

OH DEAR!

I feel sorry for the OP.

However, like the chainless bike, the arm and leg powered bike and the solid tyre, it was about due to come around again.

I totally agree that it's an idea looking for a problem to solve.


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## Joffey (5 Mar 2018)

Griffalo2003 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I am currently in the process of designing a new bike signalling system. I was wondering if anyone has any comments/ideas on this, with any possible requirements, downsides etc etc. Thank you for being part of my research.
> 
> ...



Hi Charlie

Not sure if any indicator system is needed but if you could design a system that stops cars running us over that would be appreciated.


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## mjr (5 Mar 2018)

Joffey said:


> Hi Charlie
> 
> Not sure if any indicator system is needed but if you could design a system that stops cars running us over that would be appreciated.


How about a device that stops the car motor and applies the brakes if the driver tries to overtake within 1m50 of a cycle, or attempts to swing across immediately after overtaking a cycle (aka left hooking) or drive through a cyclist (T-bone or right cross)? Sort of like that thing Volvo announced years ago, but actually handling the common collision types, rather than only a car driven into a bike from behind by a motorist who should have their licence revoked because they're either blind or criminally unobservant? And retrofittable to more cars?

Motorists would probably like it to have some sort of motion and directionality detection so that it can tell whether the car or cycle is overtaking/passing, so that their car doesn't keep stopping when cyclists in an adjacent two-way bike lane pass their traffic jam, but I'm not too fussed about that.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (5 Mar 2018)

I'm adding to the chorus too. The Highway Code has a perfectly good indicator system. The problem is the other road user attitudes to the cyclists.

Unfortunately a lot of products come along that others would have cyclists use to ease their responsibility.


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## DaveReading (5 Mar 2018)




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## Sharky (5 Mar 2018)

One flaw in having a rear indicator, is that the rider cannot rely 100% on it. The batteries may have died, or the light may have slipped or fallen off, or vehicles behind just haven't seen it against the backdrop of all the other lights on surrounding vehicles/buildings. The cyclist has to assume for their own safety that it has not been seen and use normal hand signals.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Mar 2018)

mjr said:


> How about a device that stops the car motor and applies the brakes if the driver tries to overtake within 1m50 of a cycle, or attempts to swing across immediately after overtaking a cycle (aka left hooking) or drive through a cyclist (T-bone or right cross)? Sort of like that thing Volvo announced years ago, but actually handling the common collision types, rather than only a car driven into a bike from behind by a motorist who should have their licence revoked because they're either blind or criminally unobservant? And retrofittable to more cars?
> 
> Motorists would probably like it to have some sort of motion and directionality detection so that it can tell whether the car or cycle is overtaking/passing, so that their car doesn't keep stopping when cyclists in an adjacent two-way bike lane pass their traffic jam, but I'm not too fussed about that.



Just what I was thinking before scrolling down to your post.


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## steveindenmark (6 Mar 2018)

And thats the last we will see of the OP.


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## alicat (6 Mar 2018)

Thank you for posting, op. If you could invent a right indicator that stops drivers overtaking me when it is applied, I would be very grateful.


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## Markymark (6 Mar 2018)

Making bikes more like cars is a terrible idea. Making cars more like bikes would be awesome. Or maybe making bikes more like an iPhone.


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## Bazzer (6 Mar 2018)

Sharky said:


> One flaw in having a rear indicator, is that the rider cannot rely 100% on it. The batteries may have died, or the light may have slipped or fallen off, or vehicles behind just haven't seen it against the backdrop of all the other lights on surrounding vehicles/buildings. The cyclist has to assume for their own safety that it has not been seen and use normal hand signals.



Also a car does have visual and audible warnings inside the car, that indicators are on. So for safety's sake, any rear indicator fitted to a bike is likely to require something similar to prevent false signals, which brings into play wiring, unless it could be done via wireless. Then there is the need for a warning when the light isn't working. I am not sure what happens with modern led indicators, but old style tungsten bulbs had a built in resistance so the flashing became more frequent when a bulb had failed.


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## Drago (6 Mar 2018)

A fart smelling air freshener for spacesuits would get a warmer reception, I'm afraid.


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## Dan B (6 Mar 2018)

classic33 said:


> I hope to stay with the Mk I.
> 
> Indicators would be to close together on a bike.


This got me to thinking: you need the indicators to be on stalks that stick out to either side. Which might be a problem for filtering (unless you can engineer it so that they swing out of the way when not in use), but does have the advantage that you might be able also to put something on the end of the stalk to deter close overtakes.

I'm thinking of, say, a grass rake head, or a portable angle grinder.


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## mjr (6 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> Making bikes more like cars is a terrible idea. Making cars more like bikes would be awesome. Or maybe making bikes more like an iPhone.


Have you tried the Copenhagen cycle hire? Huge screens on those.


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Mar 2018)

Griffalo2003 said:


> I am currently in the process of designing a new bike signalling system



Have you tried googling "bicycle indicators"? There are dozens of varieties of these things on the market and they've been around for donkeys' years. I remember having an indicator belt way back in the early '70s.

Despite the wide availability of them you'll very rarely see one fitted to a bike because they are a useless gimmick. It doesn't matter that you can now make them wireless, operate them by Bluetooth blah blah, they are fundamentally pointless when the standardised system of arm signalling is so easy to use and understand.

And as others have said, bikes are already commonly fitted with flashing LED lights so adding more will not make it any easier for a driver to decipher the rider's intentions.

Sorry to add to the negativity but you really are wasting your time. Here's a handy, if incomplete, flowchart to help all prospective bicycle safety designers:


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## classic33 (6 Mar 2018)

alicat said:


> Thank you for posting, op. If you could invent a right indicator that stops drivers overtaking me when it is applied, I would be very grateful.


What about turning left?


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## Sharky (6 Mar 2018)

Mentioning hand signals - when I took my driving test, you still had to do hand signals. Anybody remember them?
I still occasionally use hand signals when I turn right into our drive or similar scenarios when I've indicated to pass a line of parked cars and then need to additionally turn right into a drive etc.


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## glasgowcyclist (6 Mar 2018)

Sharky said:


> Mentioning hand signals - when I took my driving test, you still had to do hand signals. Anybody remember them?
> I still occasionally use hand signals when I turn right into our drive or similar scenarios when I've indicated to pass a line of parked cars and then need to additionally turn right into a drive etc.



I still use the straight ahead signal at a particular junction near me, and when traffic's being directed by police.


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## alicat (6 Mar 2018)

> What about turning left?



I don't care about that because they aren't overtaking me on the side I am turning towards.




> when I've indicated to pass a line of parked cars



I do wish people wouldn't indicate to pass a parked vehicle: it's not like it adds any useful information. In fact, y closest brush with the grim reaper came because of someone indicating in those circs and someone starting to reverse out of their drive because they thought driver 1 was turning right. Driver 1 stopped and suddenly my descent of Kippax Hill was blocked.


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## Phaeton (6 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> Or maybe making bikes more like an iPhone.


You mean overpriced & for posers, lots of them already are.


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## Markymark (6 Mar 2018)

Phaeton said:


> You mean overpriced & for posers, lots of them already are.


I mean double awesome. That would also help remove the sub-awesome people from this forum.


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## jefmcg (6 Mar 2018)

Tangoup51 said:


>



That one is really bad. It seems closest to this






which is a sign directing drivers to move to the right of it. An arrow like that could have the opposite effect as intended.


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## Drago (6 Mar 2018)

Phaeton said:


> You mean overpriced & for posers, lots of them already are.



...and deliberately make them really slow when they reach 2 years old?


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## mjr (6 Mar 2018)

Drago said:


> ...and deliberately make them really slow when they reach 2 years old?


Don't they already? And what does "lubricating the chain" mean?


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

Griffalo2003 said:


> Dear All,
> 
> I am currently in the process of designing a new bike signalling system. I was wondering if anyone has any comments/ideas on this, with any possible requirements, downsides etc etc. Thank you for being part of my research.
> 
> ...


Hi, 
I thought about it a while back. I have some ideas but I'm not sure how it can be done from the engineering side. 
I know signaling can be useful specially at night/ short winter days.


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## winjim (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Hi,
> I thought about it a while back. I have some ideas but I'm not sure how it can be done from the engineering side.
> I know signaling can be useful specially at night/ short winter days.


_How_ do you know?


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Hi,
> I thought about it a while back. I have some ideas but I'm not sure how it can be done from the engineering side.
> I know signaling can be useful specially at night/ short winter days.


No it can’t but I’d be interested in your views as to why it is?


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## glasgowcyclist (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I thought about it a while back



Have you thought about why every previous incarnation of this idea has failed?


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Have you thought about why every previous incarnation of this idea has failed?


...or for that matter, read this thread detailing many of the reasons?


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> No it can’t but I’d be interested in your views as to why it is?


Have you ever heard of Blaze? The laser TFL. has installed on lots of Santander bikes (formerly AKA. Boris bikes). 
I'm curious about your thoughts on that product.


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Have you ever heard of Blaze? The laser TFL. has installed on lots of Santander bikes (formerly AKA. Boris bikes).
> I'm curious about your thoughts on that product.


Yes I’ve seen them as I ride regularly in London. The main problem here is that I am 6’2” with lights from and rear. Just today a minibus was overtaking me, realised there was oncoming traffic and veered towards me. I shouted, he pulled back.

This was during daylight. I was visible in the passenger door. He pulled out to overtake me 10s prior. So what happened?

He didn’t look or didn’t care. If I had green lights glowing 5m ahead of me would have made no difference.

It makes little odd his much you light up. The problems occur when drivers don’t look or don’t care.

No here’s a thing. I used to indicate hand signal turning left. After countless times drivers decided to race me to the corner or overtake me on the turn I gave up. Now I don’t indicate and guess what? Almost zero turning overtakes. A sample of one granted, but plenty of others in this thread telling you the same thing. The driver behind is delayed by 2s. I am less likely to be killed. Sounds like a fair deal.

Sorry but indicators are a stupid idea. At best they’re useless, at worst they add to the danger. If a driver is watching it won’t make any difference. If they’re not watching it won’t make any difference.

My guess based on your question is that you have an indicator that shines on the road. A car behind (the one that’s most likely to hit you) won’t see it. If you want to indicate would you rely on it? Bad idea if you do. If you supplement it with a hand signal then why bother with the light? Waste...of...time.

Now, my question to you, how many miles a year do you cycle? And how do you think it compares to the thousands and thousands of yearly miles the other thread contributors here have who pretty much all say it’s a waste of time?


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

winjim said:


> _How_ do you know?


I've seen plenty of cyclists stuck between both lanes trying to turn right. Drivers see them way too late to slow down and give way.


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> Yes I’ve seen them as I ride regularly in London. The main problem here is that I am 6’2” with lights from and rear. Just today a minibus was overtaking me, realised there was oncoming traffic and veered towards me. I shouted, he pulled back.
> 
> This was during daylight. I was visible in the passenger door. He pulled out to overtake me 10s prior. So what happened?
> 
> ...


I personally don't cycle. I ride a scooter and I witnessed plenty of near misses and actual crushes on both sides, cyclists and motorcyclists. 
I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.


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## Brandane (20 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> No here’s a thing. I used to indicate hand signal turning left. After countless times drivers decided to race me to the corner or overtake me on the turn I gave up. Now I don’t indicate and guess what? Almost zero turning overtakes. A sample of one granted, but plenty of others in this thread telling you the same thing. The driver behind is delayed by 2s. I am less likely to be killed. Sounds like a fair deal.


Or worse still; you use the left indicator light to make a turn, but forget to switch it off before the next junction to your left (I'm assuming this wonderful system doesn't self cancel). Some nobber in a car tries to race you to the left turn, he turns left, but you don't.........


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## roadrash (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I've seen plenty of cyclists stuck between both lanes trying to turn right. Drivers see them way too late to slow down and give way.



or how about ....drivers see them plenty early enough and don't give a sh!t,.......or don't see them at all because they aren't looking


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I personally don't cycle. I ride a scooter and I witnessed plenty of near misses and actual crushes on both sides, cyclists and motorcyclists.
> I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.


Ah ok. Then I’d suggest you do a few thousand miles then come back to me with your suggestions. Until then, with all due respect, you have no idea.

Ps you’re more likely to be killed on a motorbike than on a bicycle. Maybe I should join a motorbike forum and advise you all how to ride better. Obviously nevevhaven ridden a motorbike means very little. I drive thousands of miles a year so that means I have a good idea of what you’re all doing wrong. Ooh, I have a good one, you should all wear seat belts like car drives.


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## Ian H (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I personally don't cycle. I ride a scooter and I witnessed plenty of near misses and actual crushes on both sides, cyclists and motorcyclists.
> I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.



Having cycled fairly regularly in London over the last 50 odd years, I don't find it at all hair-raising.


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## ianrauk (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I personally don't cycle. I ride a scooter and I witnessed plenty of near misses and actual crushes on both sides, cyclists and motorcyclists.
> I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.




Having cycled and cycle commuted in London for 35+ years, I witness untold amount of bad driving, near misses and bad road manners from scooterists every single day. It's people on scooters that are a menace not cyclists.
A scooterist like yourself who never cycles, I think you need to concentrate on getting your own house in order first.


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> Ah ok. Then I’d suggest you do a few thousand miles then come back to me with your suggestions. Until then, with all due respect, you have no idea.
> 
> Ps you’re more likely to be killed on a motorbike than on a bicycle. Maybe I should join a motorbike forum and advise you all how to ride better. Obviously nevevhaven ridden a motorbike means very little. I drive thousands of miles a year so that means I have a good idea of what you’re all doing wrong. Ooh, I have a good one, you should all wear seat belts like car drives.


Sorry but you got me wrong. I’m not here to advise anyone how to cycle better. I can sense a lot anger here (drivers, pedestrians, etc). I don’t cycle therefore I’ve got no clue about cycling? Wow


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Sorry but you got me wrong. I’m not here to advise anyone how to cycle better. I can sense a lot anger here (drivers, pedestrians, etc). I don’t cycle therefore I’ve got no clue about cycling? Wow


Really, do get a seat belt added to your bike. It’ll help. I don’t ride motorbikes but it’s obvious to me. I use one when driving and it saves lives.


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

ianrauk said:


> Having cycled and cycle commuted in London for 35+ years, I witness untold amount of bad driving, near misses and bad road manners from scooterists every single day. It's people on scooters that are a menace not cyclists.
> A scooterist like yourself who never cycles, I think you need to concentrate on getting your own house in order first.


Hi. I’ve never said cyclists are a menace.


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## Drago (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Hi. I’ve never said cyclists are a menace.



Some are.


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

Markymark said:


> Really, do get a seat belt added to your bike. It’ll help. I don’t ride motorbikes but it’s obvious to me. I use one when driving and it saves lives.


I thought you cycled. At least give a proper example. Cycling and riding motorcycles have more in common than driving and riding a motorcycle. Absolutely silly.
I’m sorry I asked your opinion on laser lights. I totally lacked judgement on approaching you.


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## glasgowcyclist (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I've seen plenty of cyclists stuck between both lanes trying to turn right.



That's a problem that would be better addressed by proper training through, say, Bikeability.



Elias Rojas said:


> I personally don't cycle.



You ride a powered two-wheeler, not a bicycle. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that gives you an insight to the challenges faced by, and the riding styles necessary in, city cycling.


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## Ian H (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Absolutely silly.



Psst. I think he's taking the psst.


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## winjim (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I've seen plenty of cyclists stuck between both lanes trying to turn right. Drivers see them way too late to slow down and give way.


That sounds like poor road positioning on the part of the cyclists to me.

And you may _hypothesise_ that a signalling system would help, but on that evidence, you don't _know_ it. This is the research subforum, we should try and apply a little scientific thinking at least, don't you think?


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> That's a problem that would be better addressed by proper training through, say, Bikeability.
> 
> 
> 
> You ride a powered two-wheeler, not a bicycle. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that gives you an insight to the challenges faced by, and the riding styles necessary in, city cycling.


I totally agree with you. However, most cyclist seem to do that with drivers. They fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.


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## glasgowcyclist (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I totally agree with you. However, most cyclist seem to do that with drivers. They fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.



I think there's a high proportion of commuter cyclists (in the region of 80%) who are also drivers, so that doesn't sound right to me.

What are these psychological changes? 

The limited visibility is the responsibility of the driver, who should take that into account when driving in areas busy with vulnerable road users.

I still don't see how trying to put indicators on a bicycle will improve matters for people cycling.

Have you read this whole thread, and seen the reasons that gimmicks like this are rejected by those who commute thousands of miles a year on bicycles?


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I think there's a high proportion of commuter cyclists (in the region of 80%) who are also drivers, so that doesn't sound right to me.
> 
> What are these psychological changes?
> 
> ...


Commuter cyclist represent a tiny proportion of the overall driving population. And I agree, those who cycle and drive are more aware of cyclists when when they’re on the driving seat. 
Indicators may not solve all cycling related problems. No one argued that. But It could ( potentially) enhance safety. Some safety is better than none at all.


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## Drago (20 Mar 2018)

By what mechanism would they enhance safety? As aforementioned, its been tried many times over the last few decades with a spectacular lack or success. If the benefits are so evident, why do they remain so disliked?


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Commuter cyclist represent a tiny proportion of the overall driving population. And I agree, those who cycle and drive are more aware of cyclists when when they’re on the driving seat.
> Indicators may not solve all cycling related problems. No one argued that. But It could ( potentially) enhance safety. Some safety is better than none at all.


Seatbelts fir motorcyclists. Some safety is better than none at all 

Can you please summarise what you’ve learnt from the many cyclists who say the problems of indicators outweigh the benefit? I ask because it appears you’ve either not bothered to read, don’t understand or completely ignored the main points.


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## Elias Rojas (20 Mar 2018)

Drago said:


> By what mechanism would they enhance safety? As aforementioned, its been tried many times over the last few decades with a spectacular lack or success. If the benefits are so evident, why do they remain so disliked?


That’s a good point. 
I’d put it down to design.


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## Markymark (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> That’s a good point.
> I’d put it down to design.


Let m spell it out again. When I used to hand signal cars would try and overtake me or beat me into the turn. Drivers treat cyclists differently to motorcyclists. We are seen as a inhibitor to their speed. 

When I stopped indicating and left the air if doubt the number of dangerous overtakes stopped to pretty much zero. 

Please can you tell me your assessment that the benefit of such a system outweighs to dozens of times my safety was put ar serious risk?


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I personally don't cycle. I ride a scooter and I witnessed plenty of near misses and actual crushes on both sides, cyclists and motorcyclists.
> I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.



Given the average speed of cars in London is about 8-11mph; it is not exactly hard to keep up is it? In fact I have to slow down somewhat if I want to give them a sporting chance.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I totally agree with you. However, most cyclist seem to do that with drivers. They fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.



80% of cyclists also drive. Think we have a pretty good idea on visibility. We also understand the difference between an issue of giving a shoot or an issue of visibility.


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## Bazzer (21 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Hi,
> I thought about it a while back.* I have some ideas but I'm not sure how it can be done from the engineering side*.
> I know signaling can be useful specially at night/ short winter days.




Those of us who have contributed to this thread probably cycle in total somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 miles per year, may be even more, in a variety of circumstances from rural settings, to town and city centres and from the north to the south of the country. Most, but not all drive. So there is a wide spread of experience.
So what are your ideas, so that they can be considered in the light of our experience? Other than the reference to Blaze, I haven't seen anything mentioned.


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## Markymark (21 Mar 2018)

Bazzer said:


> So what are your ideas, so that they can be considered in the light of our experience? Other than the reference to Blaze, I haven't seen anything mentioned.


It appears to be someone who doesn't ride a bike, incorrectly thinks the challenges of motorcycling are the same as cycling inventing something that has been done and failed many times before creating something that in several posts by experienced riders (not just me) as actually adding to the danger we face. Not only that, in their research the have demonstrated they are completely ignoring these valid points making me wonder if they actually know how to research and understand the responses given at all.

But good luck to the contributor, I hope they spend many many months and lots of money trying this again despite all the points raised...this time it's bound to be a winner and an excellent use of their resources.

In honour of this, I have deiced not to bother asking motorcycling for their feedback on my seat-belt ideas as I am a driver so understand their needs. I will bring it to market as it;s bound to be a success, i just need to get the design right. Seeing as motorcycling is more dangerous than cycling, any safety I can give to them is better than none. Next week, as someone who sometimes walks to the shops I shall be designing safety equipment for mountaineers without bothering to listen to their feedback.


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## The Crofted Crest (21 Mar 2018)

I only ever use hand signals to warn other cyclists of my intentions. Cars can fark right off.


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## glasgowcyclist (21 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> Commuter cyclist represent a tiny proportion of the overall driving population.



That much is obvious. But my point, in response to your assertion that, in relation to drivers of motor vehicles:


Elias Rojas said:


> most cyclist [...] fail to take on board the phycological changes on humans when they’re on high powered vehicles, The limited visibility and so on.



was that you got that wrong.
Most cyclists are also drivers so know exactly what a driver's abilities, limitations and responsibilities are.

You're switching the relationship around now but that's fine because you'll have to agree that since cyclists are a 'tiny proportion of the overall driving population' it follows that the vast majority of drivers are not cyclists. Therefore they are much less likely to have the first clue about the needs of people who want to commute safely by bike.

It explains why things like indicators and brake lights are misapplied to bicycles.

A non-cycling driver looks at a bike and thinks: that doesn't have indicators like all cars do, nor brake lights like all cars do. Surely if I make the bike more like a car it'll be safer?
This car centric approach is completely wrong as cycle safety needs to be seen from the perspective of the rider. And it's been said every time this nutty idea comes up, it is pointless.




Elias Rojas said:


> Indicators may not solve all cycling related problems.



What problem do you think they _would_ solve? Have you researched, for example, RTC statistics to see how often lack of indicating was a contributing factor in KSIs?
I suspect your research goes no further than your own limited experience of near-misses you've witnessed and I'd be surprised if you had collated all of those and identified a lack of indicators as being a primary cause.




Elias Rojas said:


> Some safety is better than none at all.



Wrong again.

As regards indicating a change of direction on a cycle, drivers are trained to react to - and expect to see - arm signals from cyclists. Simple, effective, free.

So here's your next problem:
Bikes and their riders can be fitted with all manner of lights; steady, pulsing, strobing, flashing, red, white, amber, worn on heads, arms, helmets, backpacks, saddlebags, panniers. seatposts. forks, crown, axles ..... Where are you going to fit a set of indicators amidst all that and how will you distinguish their function to make them clear and understandable to everyone?


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## mjr (21 Mar 2018)

Elias Rojas said:


> I don't cycle because I find it to be hair raising (it takes guts to cycle in London), at least with a scooter you can keep up with traffic and not be as vulnerable as a cyclists.


Others have noted the low speed of London traffic that a bike can keep up with. Thanks to London's motorised congestion, I've sometimes ended up with a 3mph average speed (and picked a better route in future) and even I can keep up with that. I don't think it takes guts to cycle in London - it's more that it takes a few tries to find routes that motorists aren't clogging up with their dangerous sprints to get to the back of the next queue. I think it would take more guts to ride a scooter or motorbike because you couldn't use the cycle bypasses and would have to mix it with car and lorry drivers all the time.

As a scooterist, what do you think of "Biker and Bike"'s shameful use of a two-year-old part-opening-week video to suggest that the cycle superhighways are empty? https://www.bikerandbike.co.uk/motorbikes-able-use-empty-cycle-superhighways/ Shouldn't they be focusing on making motorbikes less deadly before trying to mix them with more vulnerable road users?


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## Drago (21 Mar 2018)

You could hand craft them from gold, using Rolls Royce trained artisans, advertise them with photos of scantily clad women, and give them away with free money, and people still won't buy them.


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## Serge (20 Apr 2018)

Wow!

I actually feel quite sorry for the guy, that was a proper ass whipping!

You all made brilliant points though, kudos.


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## classic33 (20 Apr 2018)

Serge said:


> Wow!
> 
> I actually feel quite sorry for the guy, that was a proper ass whipping!
> 
> You all made brilliant points though, kudos.


The thing is there've been many examples over the years. With at least two versions on the UK market at present.

Now ask yourself when did you last see a bicycle with any fitted?


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## byegad (20 Apr 2018)

Yes. Even five minutes on google would bring up the problems. No research deserves a horse whipping, better from us than from the eventual examiners.


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## mjr (20 Apr 2018)

classic33 said:


> The thing is there've been many examples over the years. With at least two versions on the UK market at present.
> 
> Now ask yourself when did you last see a bicycle with any fitted?


I think I know a tricyclist with them fitted - but I think it's as much to tell to us following upwrongs which way we should go!


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## classic33 (20 Apr 2018)

mjr said:


> I think I know a *tricyclist *with them fitted - but I think it's as much to tell to us following upwrongs which way we should go!


There's the minor difference.


classic33 said:


> The thing is there've been many examples over the years. With at least two versions on the UK market at present.
> 
> Now ask yourself when did you last see a *bicycle *with any fitted?


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