# Frame for hub gear



## RufusChucklebutty (25 Dec 2019)

I picked up a pair of nice 26" wheels with Nexus hub gear for free and I'd like to find a touring frame with horizontal drop outs for them, where can I buy a low cost aluminium frame to suit ?

Does anywhere sell just no frills frames or is it cheaper to buy a discount or used bike just for the frame ?


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## FrankCrank (26 Dec 2019)

Not quite sure what a touring frame is, but sounds like it would not match for 26" wheels. Older MTBs have 26" wheels, but most likely will have vertical dropouts. The spacing for a Nexus hub will be too big, but steel frames can be tweaked to match, aly not recomended. To get it to work with vertical dropouts, you could try a combination of different sprockets, and a half link for the chain. A little filing of the dropout may also work. Anyways, something to give the noggin a good workout


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## CXRAndy (26 Dec 2019)

You could use a standard drop out frame with a hub gear and the addition of chain tensioner. Shimano do two types a single wheel and derailleur type tensioner


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## MichaelW2 (26 Dec 2019)

Aluminium dropouts are generally not strong enough for horizontal style. My alu frame uses an eccentric bottom bracket with vertical dropouts. The Dahon Cadenza can be had in a cheaper single speed version which may be of use.


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Dec 2019)

RufusChucklebutty said:


> is it cheaper to buy a discount or used bike just for the frame ?


I've bought complete donor bikes with sound steel frames for 99p from a certain online auction site.
If your 26" wheels are ISO 590 Roadster wheels, then pick up a donor 3 speed roadster or the frame off one. If they are ISO 559 MTB 26" wheels then get hold of a late 80's or 1990's rigid framed steel MTB with horizontal dropouts. If the rear stay spacings are a bit wide just squeeze them in a bit to fit. Fitting hub gears to a vertical dropout frame then having to use a chain tensioner seems completely pointless to me. If you can't do away with the jockey wheels then you might as well have derailleurs! The whole point of hub gears IMHO, is having no external mechanical clutter to get damaged or covered in road filth.


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## CXRAndy (26 Dec 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've bought complete donor bikes with sound steel frames for 99p from a certain online auction site.
> If your 26" wheels are ISO 590 Roadster wheels, then pick up a donor 3 speed roadster or the frame off one. If they are ISO 559 MTB 26" wheels then get hold of a late 80's or 1990's rigid framed steel MTB with horizontal dropouts. If the rear stay spacings are a bit wide just squeeze them in a bit to fit. Fitting hub gears to a vertical dropout frame then having to use a chain tensioner seems completely pointless to me. If you can't do away with the jockey wheels then you might as well have derailleurs! The whole point of hub gears IMHO, is having no external mechanical clutter to get damaged or covered in road filth.



Hub gears are sealed away from grime, the chain wears less because its perfect chain alignment.

A tensioner is actually less maintenance, with no fiddling the rear wheel when chain does eventually wear/stretch


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## SkipdiverJohn (26 Dec 2019)

Chain tensioners are a sticking plaster solution for unsuitable frames. They won't worsen chain alignment, but inevitably they must increase drivetrain friction compared to a standard IGH set-up with horizontal dropouts and the chain adjustment maintained by the position of the wheel in the slots. I'm sure the wheel will need removing anyway for some reason (most likely p*ncture repair or tyre swaps) by the time the chain tension gets slack.


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## rogerzilla (3 Jan 2020)

Almost any road frame up to the mid-1980s. Not aluminium though - it would be chewed up by the frequent axle repositioning. Alu and carbon track frames often have steel inserts to the rear ends, but you don't want track ends with a rear rim brake or mudguards.


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## Milkfloat (4 Jan 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> you don't want track ends with a rear rim brake or mudguards.


Why not? I have both on my fixed/single speed, I hope I am not in any danger.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Jan 2020)

Milkfloat said:


> Why not? I have both on my fixed/single speed, I hope I am not in any danger.



More to do with maintenance than safety. If you've got mudguards with rear-facing horizontal dropouts and you need to remove the wheel for a puncture repair say, you'll most likely have to unbolt the mudguard before you could get it of the frame.
Forward facing horizontal dropouts are only really semi-horizontal and the wheel drops a bit as it slides forwards, which means a flat tyre will clear the frame.
Vertical dropouts are better still in some respects, but you can't use wheel positioning to adjust the chain tension, which is why I would not use such a frame for a hub gear or SS bike, even though it can be bodged using a standalone tensioner.


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## Milkfloat (4 Jan 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> More to do with maintenance than safety. If you've got mudguards with rear-facing horizontal dropouts and you need to remove the wheel for a puncture repair say, you'll most likely have to unbolt the mudguard before you could get it of the frame.
> Forward facing horizontal dropouts are only really semi-horizontal and the wheel drops a bit as it slides forwards, which means a flat tyre will clear the frame.
> Vertical dropouts are better still in some respects, but you can't use wheel positioning to adjust the chain tension, which is why I would not use such a frame for a hub gear or SS bike, even though it can be bodged using a standalone tensioner.



Ahh ok, luckily I can only fit clip on guard on the rear which pulls out the way easily, plus the puncture fairy is scared of me.


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## rogerzilla (4 Jan 2020)

The mudguard issue is covered above and is just a pain. The rim brake problem is that the pads don't maintain position as the wheel is moved back to retension the chain. For very small adjustments you can get away with it but over the life of a chain you will be adjusting the pads a fair bit, especially if the rims have narrow braking surfaces.

"Horizontal" dropouts are actually parallel to the brake pads to avoid this issue, but track ends are parallel with the ground.


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## Milkfloat (4 Jan 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> The mudguard issue is covered above and is just a pain. The rim brake problem is that the pads don't maintain position as the wheel is moved back to retension the chain. For very small adjustments you can get away with it but over the life of a chain you will be adjusting the pads a fair bit, especially if the rims have narrow braking surfaces.
> 
> "Horizontal" dropouts are actually parallel to the brake pads to avoid this issue, but track ends are parallel with the ground.


I agree with that, I often change a chain that is only partially worn rather than mess with the pads again, especially as I have a vee brake on the rear in conjunction with a drop bar lever.


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## Nigelnightmare (9 Jan 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> The mudguard issue is covered above and is just a pain. The rim brake problem is that the pads don't maintain position as the wheel is moved back to retension the chain. For very small adjustments you can get away with it but over the life of a chain you will be adjusting the pads a fair bit, especially if the rims have narrow braking surfaces.
> 
> "Horizontal" dropouts are actually parallel to the brake pads to avoid this issue, but track ends are parallel with the ground.



Never knew that.
I always wondered why they were called "horizontal" when they were sloping down at an angle!

Every day's a school day on here.

Does anyone know why they put Horizontal dropouts on multi-geared bikes?
I mean you don't need to move the wheel to adjust the chain tension.
So vertical dropouts would have been fine.


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## SkipdiverJohn (9 Jan 2020)

Nigelnightmare said:


> Does anyone know why they put Horizontal dropouts on multi-geared bikes? I mean you don't need to move the wheel to adjust the chain tension.
> So vertical dropouts would have been fine.



Because hub gears pre-date derailleurs and many vintage road bikes were available in both hub geared and derailleur versions using the same frame. Not forgetting that SS/Fixed road frames were also popular at one time. Vertical dropouts suit derailleurs only, whereas horizontal dropouts suit everything.


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## Nigelnightmare (9 Jan 2020)

Thanks @SkipdiverJohn.


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## rogerzilla (11 Jan 2020)

Horizontal dropouts on derailleur bikes predate the B-tension screw on rear mechs. You used to move the whole wheel to get the mech to track the freewheel* closely, then set that position with the dropout adjusters. 40 years ago.

*wouldn't have been a cassette!


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## SkipdiverJohn (11 Jan 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Horizontal dropouts on derailleur bikes predate the B-tension screw on rear mechs. You used to move the whole wheel to get the mech to track the freewheel* closely, then set that position with the dropout adjusters. 40 years ago. *wouldn't have been a cassette!



Interesting, as I have only ever used the dropouts as a wheel positioning or mudguard clearance device. Mind you when I was a youngster I had low-end hi-tensile frames with stamped dropouts and no adjuster screws. It's only since I've got my hands on some quality Reynolds steel frames with thicker forged dropouts that I even encountered the refinement of being able to set your wheel position using the screws! All steel frames are not the same.


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## 12boy (21 Jan 2020)

Had an 85 Cannondale mtn bike with massive horizontal Al dropouts which now belongs to a friend. I rode that bike 5 days a week for 10 years or more and wound up making it a fixie. The friend still rides it fixed. Great snow bike. Those Al droputs were almost 1/4 inch thick and very stout. 
I've never liked tensioners much but it's necessary on my Brompton. It works great and allows for a chain pusher "derailleur" and 58 and 38 tooth chainrings. 
For fixies, IGH or single speed bikes horizontal dropouts work great and make them easy to work on in terms of changing chains or gearing. Track ends are best for track bikes.


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## Crankarm (21 Jan 2020)

OP hasn't been back since his original post on Christmas Day. Maybe he drank too much.

Touring frame with 26" wheels. I guess the wheels are on rim braked rims which rather limits your choices for "touring" bikes as most touring bikes were 700C unless you think specialist touring bikes with hand built frames which are ££££ or indeed off the shelf specialist touring bikes which also tend to be 700C. The only "touring" bike frame for 26" wheels that comes to mind is the Surly Long Haul Trucker but you ain't going to get one of these for peanuts or for free. In any case they have vertical rear drops not horizontal ones for IHG. You could still use your free wheels with Nexus IHG using either a chain tensioner which has already been suggested up thread which like some one else suggested a bit pointless if you intend using an IHG or you could not bother with an external chain tensioner but fit an eccentric bottom bracket as another way to tension the chain using this set up for a frame with vertical rear drop outs. Either way you are going to have to spend some money.

If the wheels were disc wheels you might stand a better chance of success as brakes would not be an issue as the braking is done by discs and not pads making contact with the wheel rims.

Also bear in mind if you do find a suitable frame, if it's a frame for 700C wheels and you fit 26" wheels then the bottom bracket may well be closer to the ground as the wheels are not so high meaning the pedals might strike the ground especially if you are turning sharply and leaning over as you pedal. 700c wheels on 26" frame bike can work but the other way you have to be careful.

The wheels with Nexus hub you got for free were probably free for a reason. Unless you can find a 26" frame with horizontal rear drop outs I would forget about using them as to build a bike around them could prove expensive and time consuming and just not worth it. Just get a complete touring bike off Ebay.


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