# Thanking Drivers



## theclaud (4 Sep 2021)

Saw this Tweet this morning from an entertaining account which basically Tweets anonymous opinions submitted via a Google form.


View: https://twitter.com/anon_opin/status/1433805745108226051?s=20


It's a hard agree from me.


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## winjim (4 Sep 2021)

Posted in the RIP thread but bears repeating.


View: https://twitter.com/jake010923/status/1427953144479223808?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1427953144479223808%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=


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## Arrowfoot (4 Sep 2021)

As of late, I have taken to the opposite end. It's a thumb up or a wave. Because just too many are not stopping when they are supposed to. If it was a rare occurrence. I might have stuck to my original position.


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## oldwheels (4 Sep 2021)

I cycle mostly on single track roads. Most drivers overtaking thank me for pulling in promptly at a suitable place so I always wave to ones approaching who give way and stop in passing places.


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

I don't think that being civil to strangers should draw criticism.


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## theclaud (4 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> I don't think that being civil to strangers should draw criticism.


Drivers never wave thanks to me when I'm stood at the kerb waiting for them to go past before crossing.


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## CanucksTraveller (4 Sep 2021)

I once crossed a zebra crossing and failed to say thanks to the driver, he then admonished me out of his window with a sarcastic and aggressive shout of "you're f***g welcome, I won't stop next time!". 

I agree with theClaud, this habit of thanking a motorist for complying with a mandatory stop is convincing some of them that it's voluntary and they've done you a favour. Though I fear this particular horse has already bolted and it's such a widespread behaviour / belief that it can't be reversed.


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Drivers never wave thanks to me when I'm stood at the kerb waiting for them to go past before crossing.


Nobody's pretending that good manners are going to be rewarded.


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## CanucksTraveller (4 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Drivers never wave thanks to me when I'm stood at the kerb waiting for them to go past before crossing.


Indeed, and drivers passing through a green signal don't wave at other drivers who have had to stop at a red light.


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## theclaud (4 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Nobody's pretending that good manners are going to be rewarded.


But you think drivers should be rewarded for not running you over?


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> But you think drivers should be rewarded for not running you over?


I hardly think me nodding at a stationary driver at a pedestrian crossing is a massive reward, and I don't keep a mental score of other people's manners. If we were all strictly transactional, the country would be a pretty dismal place.


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## theclaud (4 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> I hardly think me nodding at a stationary driver at a pedestrian crossing is a massive reward, and I don't keep a mental score of other people's manners. If we were all strictly transactional, the country would be a pretty dismal place.


Make your mind up, slowmo. Your word, not mine.


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Make your mind up, slowmo. Your word, not mine.


Sorry, I don't understand that.


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## mjr (4 Sep 2021)

I might start thanking the basic law abiding ones for stopping if we ever start punishing most of the scofflaws for driving through. Zebras and even puffins/toucans/pelicans are basically seen as subject to the driver's discretion now.


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> I might start thanking the basic law abiding ones for stopping if we ever start punishing most of the scofflaws for driving through. Zebras and even puffins/toucans/pelicans are basically seen as subject to the driver's discretion now.


The person who stopped for you is one of the good guys. Doesn't he get a nod? It wouldn't cost you anything.


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## HMS_Dave (4 Sep 2021)

Since it is only mandatory for a motorist to stop at a Zebra Crossing once a pedestrian has stepped foot on to the crossing, it is perhaps not without merit to acknowledge the driver if they stop before hand.


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## mjr (4 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> The person who stopped for you is one of the good guys. Doesn't he get a nod? It wouldn't cost you anything.


It would because it would reinforce the idea that "he" had a choice whether or not to and that basic driving competence deserves grovelling from other users. I'll thank ones who go beyond the law but I'm not sure how they do that at a mandatory crossing.

This whole discussion is farked up. We should be discussing how to get more of the lethal scofflaws punished, not whether to bow and scrape to those who do the minimum.


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## Jody (4 Sep 2021)

I'd say thank you as the driver doesn't have to stop unless you have already set foot on the crossing.

Both parties thank each other and carry on with their day.


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## theclaud (4 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Sorry, I don't understand that.


You suggested that if a driver were to thank me for waiting at the kerb, it would constitute a 'reward' for 'good manners', so why is it not a 'reward' for a driver to be thanked for stopping at a crossing?


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## Glow worm (4 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Saw this Tweet this morning from an entertaining account which basically Tweets anonymous opinions submitted via a Google form.
> 
> 
> View: https://twitter.com/anon_opin/status/1433805745108226051?s=20
> ...




I saw that tweet and my favourite reply was this....


Spoiler: Contains swear word



Hannah 🚲 on Twitter: "Thanking people for obeying traffic laws is weak shoot. Rudeness is an excellent tool when used correctly, stay frosty pals" / Twitter


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> It would because it would reinforce the idea that "he" had a choice whether or not to and that basic driving competence deserves grovelling from other users. I'll thank ones who go beyond the law but I'm not sure how they do that at a mandatory crossing.
> 
> This whole discussion is farked up. We should be discussing how to get more of the lethal scofflaws punished, not whether to bow and scrape to those who do the minimum.


"Grovelling" ? "Bow and scrape" ?
Maybe you should try get this into some kind of perspective inside your head.

Anyway, I'm going on a quick ten mile ride to scowl at all those evil motorists. Pip pip!


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## winjim (4 Sep 2021)

Glow worm said:


> I saw that tweet and my favourite reply was this....
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Contains swear word
> ...


Yeah, Hannah's cool as. You should all follow Hannah.


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## ebikeerwidnes (4 Sep 2021)

I wave - ok a very small wave - as a sort of thank you

I also thank bus drivers when I get of in spite of the fact that it is literally their job to stop if I want to get off

I also thank people who wait for me to pass when they side of the road is obstructed by e.g. parked cars - even though they are supposed to wait

When I was a teacher I once had a pupil who got me a thank you present after she passed he exams
only once though - in about 15 years
If a teacher wants present they have to be a class teacher in Primary - Secondary pupils don;t give gifts
apparently


Anyway - saying thank you costs nothing

Oh - just remembered - when you get one of those traffic calming things on the road where one direction has right of way (they are often either side of a village with residents on the Council) if a car stops to wait when I am approaching , then I wave "thank you" even though it is my right of way.

Maybe I was brain washed as a kid


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## Punkawallah (4 Sep 2021)

Giving recognition to someone doing the right thing gets a ‘thumbs up’ from me. Carrot & stick and all that.


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## BoldonLad (4 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I wave - ok a very small wave - as a sort of thank you
> 
> I also thank bus drivers when I get of in spite of the fact that it is literally their job to stop if I want to get off
> 
> ...



Me too. Removed the bit about teaching, because, I wasn't a teacher 



Punkawallah said:


> *Giving recognition to someone doing the right thing gets a ‘thumbs up’ from me. Carrot & stick and all that.*



+1


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Sep 2021)

I want drivers to feel good about doing the right thing. Then they’ll do it again. Does it make the driver think they don’t have to do it? I don’t know. But I want to recognise good behaviours when I’m the vulnerable user. I want the narrative to be “I stopped for this cyclist” (say in passing place in single track) and “They thanked me as they passed. Such a nice polite person”. Then when they have a mate who rants about bloody cyclists there will be one more driver who says “Hang on minute, that’s not true..,”

Zebra crossings when on foot. Not so much.


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## deptfordmarmoset (4 Sep 2021)

I'm pretty sure that using a public road is a social activity so I try to keep it as friendly as possible and keep the road as far away from being a hostile environment as I can. So I'll acknowledge drivers who stop at zebras to let me cross and, when driving, I'll thank drivers for waiting at passing places. I particularly like flashing buses to let them out because the drivers usually hit their hazards by way of thanks or give a thumbs up out of the cab window. This is a bit like the road equivalent of liking others' posts or enjoying the likes I get.


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## shep (4 Sep 2021)

Are you people for real?

Who gives a s**t, wave, don't wave, flash your ar*e at them if it makes you feel better! 

Twitter has a lot to answer for if petty cr*p like this is important to you.


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## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Are you people for real?
> 
> Who gives a s**t, wave, don't wave, flash your ar*e at them if it makes you feel better!
> 
> Twitter has a lot to answer for if petty cr*p like this is important to you.


Important enough for you to make an irrelevant comment though….


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## shep (4 Sep 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Important enough for you to make an irrelevant comment though….


Trying to address the balance that's all.


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## CanucksTraveller (4 Sep 2021)

It's alright saying "we should be civil / nice to each other", that's a perfectly fine maxim across most aspects of life, and I get it. Just not in a situation where one party will be breaking the law if they don't stop for the other. It's not being "courteous" to stop at a red light, it's the law, and you wouldn't say thanks to someone for doing that. It's not a "courtesy" to stop at a give way when there's someone coming. And it's the same on a zebra crossing, a driver can get 3 points and a fine for failing to stop, because it's a legal requirement, not a courtesy. 

Stop teaching drivers the belief that they've done you a favour by complying with the law. 

By all means continue to be nice to people who have done you a courtesy. Driver spots you standing at the kerb, and stops to wave you across? Give that driver a nice thank you wave, because they didn't have to. In other situations above, you shouldn't be waving, and equally you shouldn't be abused for not waving.


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## newfhouse (4 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Trying to address the balance that's all.


Do you think you did?


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## shep (4 Sep 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Do you think you did?


On here?

Not a snowball's chance in Hell.


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## cougie uk (4 Sep 2021)

oldwheels said:


> I cycle mostly on single track roads. Most drivers overtaking thank me for pulling in promptly at a suitable place so I always wave to ones approaching who give way and stop in passing places.


That's different. You're being courteous. It's not the rules. 
Red light. Stop. It's not optional.


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## oldwheels (4 Sep 2021)

cougie uk said:


> That's different. You're being courteous. It's not the rules.
> Red light. Stop. It's not optional.


I can only speak from recent experience in Oban but a red light at three separate locations always stops traffic and I have never seen that abused. These are pedestrian crossings only.


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## slowmotion (4 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> You suggested that if a driver were to thank me for waiting at the kerb, it would constitute a 'reward' for 'good manners', so why is it not a 'reward' for a driver to be thanked for stopping at a crossing?


Sorry, but I just don't seem to have the stamina or the professional qualifications to engage in an arid duel of semantics.


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## theclaud (4 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Sorry, but I just don't seem to have the stamina or the professional qualifications to engage in an arid duel of semantics.


Whatevs!


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## mjr (4 Sep 2021)

oldwheels said:


> I can only speak from recent experience in Oban but a red light at three separate locations always stops traffic and I have never seen that abused. These are pedestrian crossings only.


It's different now down south.


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## Arrowfoot (5 Sep 2021)

CanucksTraveller said:


> It's alright saying "we should be civil / nice to each other", that's a perfectly fine maxim across most aspects of life, and I get it. Just not in a situation where one party will be breaking the law if they don't stop for the other. It's not being "courteous" to stop at a red light, it's the law, and you wouldn't say thanks to someone for doing that. It's not a "courtesy" to stop at a give way when there's someone coming. And it's the same on a zebra crossing, a driver can get 3 points and a fine for failing to stop, because it's a legal requirement, not a courtesy.
> 
> Stop teaching drivers the belief that they've done you a favour by complying with the law.
> 
> By all means continue to be nice to people who have done you a courtesy. Driver spots you standing at the kerb, and stops to wave you across? Give that driver a nice thank you wave, because they didn't have to. In other situations above, you shouldn't be waving, and equally you shouldn't be abused for not waving.


Maybe the bigger issue should be more enforcement of the law and campaigns to increase adherence at pedestrian stops. Wave or not to wave is not material in the scheme of things.


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## slowmotion (5 Sep 2021)

I never realised that there were so many people on here with chips on their shoulders nursing daft grudges.


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## 400ixl (5 Sep 2021)

Whether it is the rules or courtesy, positive re-enforcement is rarely a bad thing. So I am one of the people who will acknowledge people doing the right thing whether they are compelled to or not.

Not sure why anyone would want a world where people want to discourage such actions.

Not showing recognition is going to drive more negative outcomes than doing so IMO.


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## Gillstay (5 Sep 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Since it is only mandatory for a motorist to stop at a Zebra Crossing once a pedestrian has stepped foot on to the crossing, it is perhaps not without merit to acknowledge the driver if they stop before hand.


This is only recognising one side of the interaction . Drivers should be prepared to slow or even stop and a few do the opposite !


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## Slick (5 Sep 2021)

oldwheels said:


> I can only speak from recent experience in Oban but a red light at three separate locations always stops traffic and I have never seen that abused. These are pedestrian crossings only.


I've driven all over Argyll over many years but having spent some time south of our border over tge past 7 or 8 years I've come to realise that whilst we do still have issues and problems up here, it is a very different ball game down there.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> It's different now down south.



South being anywhere on the mainland south of Dunnet Head


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## HMS_Dave (5 Sep 2021)

Gillstay said:


> This is only recognising one side of the interaction . Drivers should be prepared to slow or even stop and a few do the opposite !


In the OP, it suggests it is law for a motorist to stop. It is only law once a pedestrian has made way onto the crossing. Yes the highway code makes suggestion that the motorist should slow and even stop but it isn't a legal requirement to do so and since stopping is optional, I am suggesting that acknowledgement isn't without merit. But there is no legal requirement to do that either, so do what you want....


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## mjr (5 Sep 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> In the OP, it suggests it is law for a motorist to stop. It is only law once a pedestrian has made way onto the crossing.


OP suggests the person is already crossing. I've only seen people thank while crossing, not before.

Doesn't everyone stick half a foot on a zebra? Stopping is not farking optional, not that you'd know it from how motorists behave.


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## HMS_Dave (5 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> OP suggests the person is already crossing. I've only seen people thank while crossing, not before.
> 
> Doesn't everyone stick half a foot on a zebra? Stopping is not farking optional, *not that you'd know it.*


This place gets worse...

Enjoy it.


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## oldwheels (5 Sep 2021)

Slick said:


> I've driven all over Argyll over many years but having spent some time south of our border over tge past 7 or 8 years I've come to realise that whilst we do still have issues and problems up here, it is a very different ball game down there.


My brother in law worked just outside London for a while and drove a van with tools etc. He said that if you stopped at a roundabout you could die of old age before you found a gap to get moving again. I last drove in that area about 60 years ago but on more recent forays to mid Wales on business I thought they were all quite mad. Pausing at T junctions was for wimps and you gave way to nobody. I had a slightly battered looking van with steel bumpers so most kept clear of me.


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## mjr (5 Sep 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> This place gets worse...
> 
> Enjoy it.


Edited to try to remove the unintended interpretation.


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## Fenrider (5 Sep 2021)

I'm all for saying thank you. The driver who gets thanked for their good behaviour will possibly be more inclined to treat the next cyclist they encounter as a human being. What goes around, comes around.


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## roley poley (5 Sep 2021)

It costs nowt to give a smile or wave to people who ease your passage through life..ain't that the way you want the world to turn for everyone?


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## theclaud (5 Sep 2021)

Not killing you is 'easing your passage through life'? Can we set the bar any lower?


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## DaveReading (5 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Not killing you is 'easing your passage through life'?



It's certainly a promising start.


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## roley poley (5 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Not killing you is 'easing your passage through life'? Can we set the bar any lower?


No..that's the limbo bar set at its lowest but I still wiggle through ......we all deserve a higher setting


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## shep (6 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Not killing you is 'easing your passage through life'? Can we set the bar any lower?


Or you can go around in life being a bitter, angry ar*ehole who hates everybody and looking for something to whinge about. 

The choice, Ladies and Gentlemen is entirely yours. 😄


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## Arrowfoot (6 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Or you can go around in life being a bitter, angry ar*ehole who hates everybody and looking for something to whinge about.
> 
> The choice, Ladies and Gentlemen is entirely yours. 😄


I think it was a valid comment and opinion. Certainly not a whinge.


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## theclaud (6 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Or you can go around in life being a bitter, angry ar*ehole who hates everybody and looking for something to whinge about.


Not tried that yet. What's it like?


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## icowden (6 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> Doesn't everyone stick half a foot on a zebra? Stopping is not farking optional, not that you'd know it from how motorists behave.



But you have to concede that there is a bit of give and take and certain things help. For example, if you are stationary, in a busy area waiting by a zebra crossing, there are a number of things that can happen.

The motorist just won't notice you because you are not moving.
The motorist won't stop as they are trying to work out whether you intend to cross or not, or whether you are just waiting for someone.
By moving forward and putting a foot on the edge of the crossing, looking to see if the cars are stopping, your body language indicates to the driver that you are waiting to cross, so they are more likely to see you and stop. However, its possible that they see you too late to be able to stop safely, or they are just a**holes.

So yes - in principle drivers should always stop at a Zebra crossing, however in the real world this is not a given for many reasons, some of which are outlined above. Thus, as pedestrians or cyclists we can give signals that help facilitate the crossing transaction - but caution should still be exercised (in my view).


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## shep (6 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Not tried that yet. What's it like?


Dunno, have a quick look at the 'what annoys people' thread.


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## BrumJim (6 Sep 2021)

In the same way I still say "Thank you" to the bus driver when I get off.

Thank you for taking the correct route, and not deciding to give the 62 route down the Bristol Road a try instead.
Thank you for not crashing the bus on the way.
Thank you for stopping at the bus stop as I requested, rather than sailing through and going all the way to the terminus.
Thank you for not slamming the brakes on when I got off the seat and laughing as I tumble down the aisle.

Or just "Thank you" because I am polite.


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## theclaud (6 Sep 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Thank you for taking the correct route, and not deciding to give the 62 route down the Bristol Road a try instead.
> Thank you for not crashing the bus on the way.
> Thank you for stopping at the bus stop as I requested, rather than sailing through and going all the way to the terminus.
> Thank you for not slamming the brakes on when I got off the seat and laughing as I tumble down the aisle.


Are any of these routine bus driver behaviours?


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## BoldonLad (6 Sep 2021)

BrumJim said:


> In the same way I still say "Thank you" to the bus driver when I get off.
> 
> Thank you for taking the correct route, and not deciding to give the 62 route down the Bristol Road a try instead.
> Thank you for not crashing the bus on the way.
> ...


 +1


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## Dogtrousers (6 Sep 2021)

Re the OP, it's a question I often ask myself. Often just after I have given a little wave to someone who has stopped, as is my habit. Of course only people who looked like they were stopping anyway get a wave. If I've had to force the issue by stepping out meaningfully - they get treated to a slow walk and get ignored. These rules are so complicated, who invented them? Oh, I did.

Re other drivers giving way to other drivers at junctions etc in heavy traffic. In my neck of the woods (Sarf East London) people will nearly always let you in, but you do have to be clear about your intentions. If it didn't work like that, everything would grind to a halt. The South Circular is a tremendously effective traffic-calming device.


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## theclaud (6 Sep 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> These rules are so complicated, who invented them? Oh, I did.


As it should be. There are _some_ circumstances in which I give approving gestures to drivers - mainly ones who are clearly considering a stupid/dangerous manoeuvre, but think better of it after meeting my eye. Think of it as sort of training, like with a puppy.


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Sep 2021)

I work on the basis that being nice to people makes me feel better about life - and maybe it could improve someone else's day

Also - we have all seen posts on 'some newspapers' websites where someone states - as an absolute fact - that all cyclists are entitled morons who all ignore red lights and obstruct the road for no reason - etc etc etc

So if I am on my bike and am nice to a car driver then I may make someone think that some cyclists are not the sort that ride through red lights etc etc

it may make a difference at some point in the future to some cyclist - who may be me

or you

who knows but I feel it is worth a go


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## JtB (6 Sep 2021)

Regardless of what I’m doing I see any opportunity to direct a cheery little wave at a stranger as an opportunity to inject a little happiness into the world and if nothing else it makes me feel a little happier. So if you’re telling me there’s a downside to my cheery little wave then seriously guys you’re overthinking things.

So here’s a cheery little wave from me to you


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## theclaud (6 Sep 2021)

JtB said:


> So if you’re telling me there’s a downside to my cheery little wave then seriously guys you’re overthinking things.


The point of the OP is very much that the cheery wave is part of the tendency to underthink things, and that decades of jolly pedestrian deference to motor vehicles underpins a profoundly unequal power relationship in our public spaces.


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## Mugshot (6 Sep 2021)

BrumJim said:


> In the same way I still say "Thank you" to the bus driver when I get off.
> 
> Thank you for taking the correct route, and not deciding to give the 62 route down the Bristol Road a try instead.
> Thank you for not crashing the bus on the way.
> ...


The correct response would be

"Cheers drive"


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## Electric_Andy (6 Sep 2021)

I usually give a nod or a small wave. I have on a few occasions nearly had my feet run over by idiots who don't stop, and I've shouted obscenaties at them. So if they stop, it's more of a "thanks for not making me angry"!


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## Archie_tect (6 Sep 2021)

Having interacted safely with traffic for 57 of my 62 years, I happily acknowledge drivers who clearly make an effort and display consideration and fore-thought, whether I'm on foot, on my bike or driving something heavy.


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## ebikeerwidnes (6 Sep 2021)

On the same basis when I am riding on canal paths - and other shared paths - then I try to give every walker, jogger, dog etc a cheery "Thank you" if they have moved over in any way

A lot of people thank me back - presumably for ringing my bell and/or slowing down - clearly I am not allowed to barrel into them at 15.5 mph (ebike motor cutoff) so they don;t NEED to thank me for not ramming them into the canal but keeping everything cheerful makes the Word a very slightly nicer place
not by much - but a few million very small nice things add up


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## KnittyNorah (6 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Are any of these routine bus driver behaviours?



Well, there's no number 62 route down Bristol Road here, but I've experienced all the others, more or less, since I had to give up driving some 10 years ago due to eyesight issues. It was only a couple of weeks ago that a driver crashed the bus into some bollards, and we all had to troop off the bus and line up to get on another one ... Then a few days after that the same driver stopped 'at the bus stop' with a screeching of brakes in response to a bloke shouting 'THREE of us have rung the bell for this stop! What's going on?' When I asked him to lower the bus (as he wasn't anywhere near the kerb) he claimed 'it was broken' - until a lady with a buggy shouted 'no it isn't, you lowered it to let me on!' but by then I'd been helped off by the other two passengers ...
Yes, I complained. I haven't seen that driver on my regular route since. 
Most bus drivers are competent and courteous, some are great and really helpful. So yes, I do thank bus drivers who are. And complain to the company about those who aren't.


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## cyberknight (7 Sep 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Re the OP, it's a question I often ask myself. Often just after I have given a little wave to someone who has stopped, as is my habit. Of course only people who looked like they were stopping anyway get a wave. If I've had to force the issue by stepping out meaningfully - they get treated to a slow walk and get ignored. These rules are so complicated, who invented them? Oh, I did.
> 
> Re other drivers giving way to other drivers at junctions etc in heavy traffic. In my neck of the woods (Sarf East London) people will nearly always let you in, but you do have to be clear about your intentions. If it didn't work like that, everything would grind to a halt. The South Circular is a tremendously effective traffic-calming device.


At junctions and filters where people need to join the flow of busy traffic my rule is if they wait nicely i will let you in, try to barge in and your sitting there mate .


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## mjr (7 Sep 2021)

cyberknight said:


> At junctions and filters where people need to join the flow of busy traffic my rule is if they wait nicely i will let you in, try to barge in and your sitting there mate .


Do you do that even at "merge in turn" junctions?


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## shep (7 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> Do you do that even at "merge in turn" junctions?


The p****s that come right down the outside to the very front then try to 'merge' right the front get that treatment from me.


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> The p****s that come right down the outside to the very front then try to 'merge' right the front get that treatment from me.


I don't think you grasp the 'merge in turn' concept.


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## BoldonLad (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> The p****s that come right down the outside to the very front then try to 'merge' right the front get that treatment from me.



They are supposed to use both lanes, and, then, well "merge in turn" (the clue is in the name). Not totally sure what the objective is, but, I would guess, to reduce the length of the queue and minimise it blocking other junctions.


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## Mo1959 (7 Sep 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I also often pull over if there's a queue building behind me with no expectation of a safe overtaking place for a while. My motivation for this is purely selfish - I don't like having cars driving up my backside. It does occur to me that some people may think this a craven thing to do and may train drivers to expect such submissive behaviour. But I'm a short-termist so I keep on doing it.


Me too......no point in making them frustrated and boiling with rage and taking it out on the next cyclist they see.


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## Chief Broom (7 Sep 2021)

I tend to be free and easy with waving and thanking drivers and waving especially is almost obligatory in the Highlands!  Of course sometimes its an 'ironic' kinda wave....ooh thanks everso for not running me over....Im not averse to giving the finger when warranted which doesnt happen that often and i occasionally shout abuse at someone parking in a passing place [from the window of my car,,doing it on a cycle could be risky]. Yesterday a motorhome came far to close when passing which is just another case of tunnel vision ego and inconsiderate of anyone else,..... theres a lot of that about whether in the sticks or the city.


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## DaveReading (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> I don't think you grasp the 'merge in turn' concept.



In common with most UK drivers, who fail to appreciate that it's far more efficient, and safer, to use all the lanes up to the point of the merge.


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## mjr (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> I don't think you grasp the 'merge in turn' concept.


And that's why so many of them are littered with glass from crashes! 



BoldonLad said:


> They are supposed to use both lanes, and, then, well "merge in turn" (the clue is in the name). Not totally sure what the objective is, but, I would guess, to reduce the length of the queue and minimise it blocking other junctions.


Yes, most of them are intended to clear the junction behind more quickly and stave off gridlock by a few more cars. So, mixed feelings on the arrogant drivers who think they know better and block mergers: the assistance to cycling by them jamming up motorists sooner is probably outweighed by all the glass on the road for us to ride over.


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## mjr (7 Sep 2021)

DaveReading said:


> In common with most UK drivers, who fail to appreciate that it's far more efficient, and safer, to use all the lanes up to the point of the merge.


Well, many UK drivers fail to appreciate it's more efficient and safer to cycle most of the 66% of journeys that are shorter than 5 miles, so it's not a huge surprise, surely?


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## yello (7 Sep 2021)

DaveReading said:


> In common with most UK drivers, who fail to appreciate that it's far more efficient, and safer, to use all the lanes up to the point of the merge.



It is strange one that one innit? Almost as if that (faux?) British politeness is operating in advance of the actual merge point, and using the lane to it's fullest length is somehow 'rude'. 

FWIW, I'll always acknowledge someone for stopping for me on a pedestrian crossing. Yes I know it's the law, and I arguably need not thank people for obeying the law, but they've also acted in a considerate manner towards me. That is, they've seen me and stopped - obviously I don't know whether they've acted primarily out of obeyance or consideration (I personally think the latter in more cases than not) but it's that awareness and consideration I am thanking them for.

The alternative is to potentially p*ss them off and cause them not to stop at the next crossing. Think of it as a kind of carry-forward karma.


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## mustang1 (7 Sep 2021)

Nice one.

Then there is that one when you're the minor road at at T-junction. I believe the law says the car turning from the main road into the minor road must give way to pedestrians. So that's one thing. But then at some junctions, a few metres away I see a zebra crossing and I think what's the point of having a zebra crossing where drivers are supposed to stop when the drivers were supposed to stop at the junction anyway.

unless I'm mistaken (rather possible actually). pls someone correct me.


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## cyberknight (7 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> Do you do that even at "merge in turn" junctions?


indeed . merge in turn not try to barge your way in


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## BoldonLad (7 Sep 2021)

Chief Broom said:


> I tend to be free and easy with waving and thanking drivers and waving especially is almost obligatory in the Highlands!  *Of course sometimes its an 'ironic' kinda wave....ooh thanks everso for not running me over..*..Im not averse to giving the finger when warranted which doesnt happen that often and i occasionally shout abuse at someone parking in a passing place [from the window of my car,,doing it on a cycle could be risky]. Yesterday a motorhome came far to close when passing which is just another case of tunnel vision ego and inconsiderate of anyone else,..... theres a lot of that about whether in the sticks or the city.



Yes, I am "guilty" of that behaviour, an especially good wave and a smile and a mouthed "thank you", plus, a leisurely stroll across the crossing, for those who stop grudgingly, and/or in a cloud of tyre smoke.


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## mjr (7 Sep 2021)

yello said:


> The alternative is to potentially p*ss them off and cause them not to stop at the next crossing. Think of it as a kind of carry-forward karma.


I don't believe the two shoots failing to stop at red lights on my way into town did it because a previous crosser failed to thank them. I feel it is far more likely they did it because they see red lights as an unfair impediment to their roads, motorists can do no wrong in many eyes so they do not suffer social stigma, and we have almost no red light cameras to catch them.


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## shep (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> I don't think you grasp the 'merge in turn' concept.


I grasp the concept completely because it's what I do, what I don't do is completely ignore any chance of merging but drive right to the front where the lane is now single but try and barge my way in by driving over the hatched markings.

If this is something you do then good luck if you meet me at the front of the cue.


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Me too......no point in making them frustrated and boiling with rage and taking it out on the next cyclist they see.


They are making themselves angry - the cyclist who doesn't do what they want is not responsible. I'm all for cyclists deciding, if they wish, to facilitate an overtake because they prefer the cars in front of them rather than behind, but placating an angry driver with deference is not doing anything to stem the entitlement which is the source of his anger. It will just make him feel more entitled to expect the next person to move over.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> I don't believe the two shoots failing to stop at red lights on my way into town did it because a previous crosser failed to thank them. I feel it is far more likely they did it because they see red lights as an unfair impediment to their roads, motorists can do no wrong in many eyes so they do not suffer social stigma, and we have almost no red light cameras to catch them.



In which case whether you thank or don’t thank that individual makes not an iota of difference.


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> I grasp the concept completely because it's what I do, what I don't do is completely ignore any chance of merging but drive right to the front where the lane is now single but try and barge my way in by driving over the hatched markings.
> 
> If this is something you do then good luck if you meet me at the front of the cue.


Are we at cross purposes? You seem to be talking about people who overtake what is supposed to be a single-lane queue (eg an exit lane from a motorway) rather than forming a pointless single-file queue in one of two lanes when asked to zip merge?


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## BoldonLad (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> They are making themselves angry - the cyclist who doesn't do what they want is not responsible. I'm all for cyclists deciding, if they wish, to facilitate an overtake because they prefer the cars in front of them rather than behind, but placating an angry driver with deference is not doing anything to stem the entitlement which is the source of *his* anger. It will just make *him* feel more entitled to expect the next person to move over.



"them", or, "the driver" surely?


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## shep (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> Are we at cross purposes? You seem to be talking about people who overtake what is supposed to be a single-lane queue (eg an exit lane from a motorway) rather than forming a pointless single-file queue in one of two lanes when asked to zip merge?


No I'm not, generally you 'merge' when a 2 lane road becomes a 1 lane road, and some people don't bother trying to merge they simply drive past all the single line over the hatched markings on the right (before the road physically becomes one lane) and then try and cut in at the end.

If I'm not being clear I apologise but I'm not explaining again.


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## yello (7 Sep 2021)

mjr said:


> I don't believe the two shoots failing to stop at red lights on my way into town did it because a previous crosser failed to thank them.



I'm inclined to agree with you, with the obvious caveat that I can't possibly know for sure.

Not quite what I said though.


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## DaveReading (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> No I'm not, generally you 'merge' when a 2 lane road becomes a 1 lane road, and some people don't bother trying to merge they simply drive past all the single line over the hatched markings on the right (before the road physically becomes one lane) and then try and cut in at the end.



If you're still moving when you get to the hatch marks, it's usually because some self-entitled tw*t in the nearside lane doesn't understand what a zip merge is and has decided they aren't going to let you in.

Much like the type of behaviour someone described a few posts back.


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> No I'm not, generally you 'merge' when a 2 lane road becomes a 1 lane road, and some people don't bother trying to merge they simply drive past all the single line over the hatched markings on the right (before the road physically becomes one lane) and then try and cut in at the end.
> 
> If I'm not being clear I apologise but I'm not explaining again.


OK I'm gonna leave it cos it's a bit of a diversion and probably better in the motoring section. I'll just note in passing that Brits don't really get the zip merging thing, preferring to make things worse for everyone rather than risk someone else receiving an undeserved benefit.

_So while zip-merging - allowing one vehicle from each lane to enter the remaining lane alternately - is a common concept in America, the majority of British drivers believe they should get into the remaining lane “as soon as possible”, a method that has been proven to significantly increase congestion__. _


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> "them", or, "the driver" surely?


Perfectly conventional use of the masculine singular pronoun as a generic, chosen deliberately in this case, both because men drive more and because men tend to especially resent assertive behaviour from women.


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## shep (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> OK I'm gonna leave it cos it's a bit of a diversion and probably better in the motoring section. I'll just note in passing that Brits don't really get the zip merging thing, preferring to make things worse for everyone rather than risk someone else receiving an undeserved benefit.
> 
> _So while zip-merging - allowing one vehicle from each lane to enter the remaining lane alternately - is a common concept in America, the majority of British drivers believe they should get into the remaining lane “as soon as possible”, a method that has been proven to significantly increase congestion__. _


Aren't you British then?


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## shep (7 Sep 2021)

DaveReading said:


> If you're still moving when you get to the hatch marks, it's usually because some self-entitled tw*t in the nearside lane doesn't understand what a zip merge is and has decided they aren't going to let you in.
> 
> Much like the type of behaviour someone described a few posts back.


Or you should have 'merged' in plenty of time like most do instead of driving like a self entitled tw*t, works both ways pal.


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Aren't you British then?


70% of a population reliably getting something simple wrong is a a sound basis for a characterisation that The Nation doesn't get it, I reckon. You seem to think 52% entitles you to Speak For Britain most of the time so I'm not sure it's a great fight for you to pick.


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## shep (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> 70% of a population reliably getting something simple wrong is a a sound basis for a characterisation that The Nation doesn't get it, I reckon. You seem to think 52% entitles you to Speak For Britain most of the time so I'm not sure it's a great fight for you to pick.


Wtf does this mean?

You refered to people here as Brits which led me to believe you weren't one, what's your problem?

You are one angry chick.


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## Mugshot (7 Sep 2021)

No wonder they're closing NACA! 

Hang on a minute...


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## mjr (7 Sep 2021)

Mugshot said:


> No wonder they're closing NACA!
> 
> Hang on a minute...


It's a waving thread crossed with a motoring one. The resulting child was never likely to win a beauty contest. I think some people learned a bit about another viewpoint earlier... maybe not so much on this page, though.


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## DaveReading (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Or you should have 'merged' in plenty of time like most do instead of driving like a self entitled tw*t, works both ways pal.



Except that merging "in plenty of time" typically equates to doing so as soon as drivers see the "lane closed in one mile" sign.

Anyway, this is where we came in ...


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## RoubaixCube (7 Sep 2021)

I give a wave or thumbs up even if I have priority.

There are plenty of impatient people who couldn't spare a few seconds for me flying past that pulled out in front of me (and gave me a heart attack) even if it meant they were blocking the entire cycle/bus lane or road waiting to merge with other traffic which wasn't moving at all. 

I also thank the people who move their cars a little to the left or right so I can filter past when at a set of lights. Of course they don't need to but it's nice when they do.

What does annoy me occasionally is when I give way to a pedestrian trying to cross a road and they take the piss by not even acknowledging me and walking strolling across the road as slow as they can crawl. These people are a special bunch and they drive me up the absolute wall but luckily they are very few and far between but i digress. For every muppet like this there have been countless numbers of people who *HAVE *thanked me for slowing down or stopping so they can cross to the other side of the road.


So a little bit of politeness goes a long way even if not everyone you share the road (and would rather not) appreciates your presence there. 
It doesnt take a whole lot of effort to tip your hat, nod or lift your hand for a small wave. You get what you give.


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## theclaud (7 Sep 2021)

RoubaixCube said:


> You get what you give.


That sounds nice but it's not actually true, is it, as a description of relations between different road users? I mean, a man nearly killed me with a lorry a week or so ago, and I don't recall ever threatening the life of a lorry driver.


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## RoubaixCube (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> That sounds nice but it's not actually true, is it, as a description of relations between different road users? I mean, a man nearly killed me with a lorry a week or so ago, and I don't recall ever threatening the life of a lorry driver.



well if you take my words out of context and twist them, of course not.


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## BoldonLad (7 Sep 2021)

RoubaixCube said:


> I give a wave or thumbs up even if I have priority.
> 
> There are plenty of impatient people who couldn't spare a few seconds for me flying past that pulled out in front of me (and gave me a heart attack) even if it meant they were blocking the entire cycle/bus lane or road waiting to merge with other traffic which wasn't moving at all.
> 
> ...



My sentiments exactly. 

I have the book (Why The Germans Do It Better). Haven't started it yet, still reading Jeremy Paxman Memoirs on my e-reader. I will wait until I have read it before deciding to "thank you for the recommendation"


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## Salty seadog (7 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> I wave - ok a very small wave - as a sort of thank you
> 
> I also thank bus drivers when I get of in spite of the fact that it is literally their job to stop if I want to get off
> 
> ...



100% agree.


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## Salty seadog (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Trying to address the balance that's all.



If you had read the thread up until that point you would know it was always in the balance. 

I don't believe your motive.


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## Salty seadog (7 Sep 2021)

CanucksTraveller said:


> It's alright saying "we should be civil / nice to each other", that's a perfectly fine maxim across most aspects of life, and I get it. Just not in a situation where one party will be breaking the law if they don't stop for the other. It's not being "courteous" to stop at a red light, it's the law, and you wouldn't say thanks to someone for doing that. It's not a "courtesy" to stop at a give way when there's someone coming. And it's the same on a zebra crossing, a driver can get 3 points and a fine for failing to stop, because it's a legal requirement, not a courtesy.
> 
> Stop teaching drivers the belief that they've done you a favour by complying with the law.
> 
> By all means continue to be nice to people who have done you a courtesy. Driver spots you standing at the kerb, and stops to wave you across? Give that driver a nice thank you wave, because they didn't have to. In other situations above, you shouldn't be waving, and equally you shouldn't be abused for not waving.



I think the phrase you're dissing is positive reinforcement.


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## ebikeerwidnes (7 Sep 2021)

to totally derail the thread
went to grand-daughter's birthday family 'do' today

Most of the route is on the motorway
outside lane was doing 60-65 - no more
as usual I left a 2 second gap

at least 10 'people' undertook me and pulled in front - this reducing the gap dramatically dropping the gap so I slow down - and the next moron - sorry car driver - undertook
probably 4 of the 10 did so in a massively dangerous manner


as well as having the 'think you' wave

can we have a "stop driving like a moron" signal

maybe involving missiles and shaped charges?????????

When I met my wife I said I would like to buy a tank - today said I was right





OK ALL

back on topic before I get shouted at!!!


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## slowmotion (7 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> That sounds nice but it's not actually true, is it, as a description of relations between different road users? I mean, a man nearly killed me with a lorry a week or so ago, and I don't recall ever threatening the life of a lorry driver.


I'm sorry to hear of your recent incident. I don't think anybody would expect or ask you to give a cheery wave to somebody who has endangered your life. I still think that it's reasonable to treat other lorry drivers, as a group, with courtesy though. After all, they are not all the same, any more than all cyclists are the same.


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## R_nger (7 Sep 2021)

shep said:


> Wtf does this mean?
> 
> You refered to people here as Brits which led me to believe you weren't one, what's your problem?
> 
> You are one angry chick.


It seems you’re a bit confused - maybe read the Brits reference again.

And then consider whether the tone of your response was appropriate.


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## theclaud (8 Sep 2021)

slowmotion said:


> I'm sorry to hear of your recent incident. I don't think anybody would expect or ask you to give a cheery wave to somebody who has endangered your life. I still think that it's reasonable to treat other lorry drivers, as a group, with courtesy though. After all, they are not all the same, any more than all cyclists are the same.


Thanks Slowmo, but there's no need to be quite so simplistic. I'm asking those who believe that the one-sided courtesy ritual of pedestrian crossings somehow spreads love around and brings goodwill dividends to explain how this works and when we will be seeing the gains for pedestrians. It is, as far as I can think of, the only scenario in which the party with priority routinely thanks the party obliged to yield. Drivers entering roundabouts do not nod to the car waiting to their left, nor do people proceeding along main roads wave and smile gratefully as they pass those waiting at give way lines at side roads.


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## BoldonLad (8 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> to totally derail the thread
> went to grand-daughter's birthday family 'do' today
> 
> Most of the route is on the motorway
> ...



If 10 people undertook you, that means, the lane on your left was not occupied, why weren’t you in it? (The lane on your left).


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## shep (8 Sep 2021)

I also acknowledge people who have stopped at the traffic calming spots when I have priority, no need to but why not?

Right by my house is a large 'yellow box' area on a small roundabout, if people stop in it this prevents others getting through, I give them a knod as well.


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## DaveReading (8 Sep 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> at least 10 'people' undertook me and pulled in front - this reducing the gap dramatically dropping the gap so I slow down - and the next moron - sorry car driver - undertook
> probably 4 of the 10 did so in a massively dangerous manner



If you're being consistently undertaken on a motorway, that's usually an indication that you're in the wrong lane and should move over.


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## figbat (8 Sep 2021)

If somebody has made an active effort to ease my way then they get a thank you gesture, and I’ll make it as engaging as possible rather than just an offhand half-wave whilst I look the other way. Anybody who has simply done what is legally required of them gets nothing.

Examples:

Someone pulling in to a passing place on a single track road - thanks
Someone stopping at a give way sign because of priority in my direction - nope
Someone stopping at a zebra crossing as I am clearly about to cross - nothing
Someone anticipating that my approach to a crossing means I will use it and stopping to allow me an uninterrupted crossing - cheers
Someone seeing me behind them in traffic as I am filtering on my motorbike and moving over to give me room - nice one (whether I pass them or not, they get acknowledged
Sometimes I see people ‘thank’ me when I am at the head of a queue stopped at temporary traffic lights. This feels to me like the gesture is ingrained and subconscious and therefore meaningless. Rather like the insincere “have a nice day” in some quarters.


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## yello (8 Sep 2021)

It is simple. Somehow shows me a courtesy, I acknowledge that with a thanks. I don't process an equation of who is and who isn't to be thanked, or why. It's not political, it's a simple human gesture. 

Tomorrow I might well be tutting (I don't, as a rule, do shouting or gesturing) that very same driver but that's as it is. And, yes, might ever be if everyone was like me.


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## Dogtrousers (8 Sep 2021)

DaveReading said:


> If you're being consistently undertaken on a motorway, that's usually an indication that you're in the wrong lane and should move over.


Unless the lanes go to different destinations (normally indicated on a gantry). Although this situation doesn't normally last for very long, just in the run-up to junctions. But in normal driving, yup ... move left. Default lane should be the leftmost, move over only to overtake.


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## Rooster1 (8 Sep 2021)

I choose to continue to thank those that stop at a zebra crossing for me.
I will shout and gesture at motorists that sail through.
I will also thank car drivers who overtake me after patiently waiting to do so. 
I will shout and gesture at motorists that do hurried, dangerous close passes.
Make sense ?


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## ebikeerwidnes (8 Sep 2021)

DaveReading said:


> If you're being consistently undertaken on a motorway, that's usually an indication that you're in the wrong lane and should move over.


I agree except that I was doing the same speed (60-65) as the other cars in that lane and the middle lane was doing 55-60 or less - hence I was overtaking traffic in the middle lane consistantly
The only reason people undertook me was that there were gaps in the traffic in the middle lane - but if I had moved left I would be catching up the traffic in the middle lane and would want to move out again within a minute or so
And I am pretty sure the traffic in the outside lane would not have just let me in - except of course that they should have done the same thing themselves!

Often I was actually going slower than the outside lane traffic - but only because I had just been undertaken and, because the gaps in the middle lane were quite small, when they moved into the gap I had left I was then far too close to them - hence had to slow down. In 2 cases the car pulled in so close I actually had to brake - which I try to never do on a motorway!

Basically these people undertook me - then pulled in FAR too close into a gap that was barely 2 seconds before they pulled into it - then could not pull away from me as the car ahead was actually going the same speed as me

anyway - sorry - end rant


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## yello (8 Sep 2021)

If a pedestrian waves at an empty crossing, does anyone see it?


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## tyred (8 Sep 2021)

yello said:


> If a pedestrian waves at an empty crossing, does anyone see it?


Yes, the nosey old bag behind the twitching net curtains.


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## theclaud (10 Sep 2021)

I ate my lunch by a Zebra crossing in the city centre (Swansea) the day before yesterday. It's this one. It's the busiest of three similar crossings on the the most direct E-W traffic route through the city centre. Now, it's not a pretty street but it's been through a lot of appalling traffic schemes and the latest is a huge improvement on the pedestrian environment of previous iterations. Note that the sightlines are very good in terms of enabling drivers to read and anticipate pedestrian behaviours. I was there a little over half an hour. I offer a few observations for the purposes of the thread, with obvious anecdotal evidence caveat...

Almost all drivers stop at the crossing when legally required to do so (i.e. when someone has moved onto a crossing).
However, the majority of drivers do not stop in anticipation of pedestrian movement, but wait until pedestrians are signalling their intention to cross by standing at the crossing and waiting/looking right and left. The zebra equivalent of amber-gambling, if you like. Quite a lot of drivers come to abrupt halt rather than slowing down before the crossing. Many move off before the crossing is clear.
I reckon the ratio of Thankers to Non Thankers is somewhere between 60/40 and 70/30, if you include any kind of acknowledgement of a stopped driver such as a cursory nod.
Enthusiastic Thankers (wave AND smile) are a minority, but a substantial one. There's a high correlation between this behaviour and using a phone while crossing. Solo crossers thank more than pairs or groups.
Disabled/mobility impaired people are not generally effusive thankers.
People who perform a lot of Thanking have a tendency to speed up / rush across the crossing.
The vast majority of drivers do not overtly acknowledge the thanks. It's all _grazie _and no _prego_.
Not a single driver thanked a pedestrian for waiting at the kerb.
I didn't witness any gestures of aggression towards pedestrians, but a lot of drivers wore impatient expressions, and most looked miserable. Not as miserable as drivers trying to pass a group ride on Ditchling Beacon, but considering the amount of goodwill they were getting in terms of waving, smiling, and nodding from pedestrians, they were a right bunch of surly bastards.


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## HMS_Dave (10 Sep 2021)

theclaud said:


> I ate my lunch by a Zebra crossing in the city centre (Swansea) the day before yesterday. It's this one. It's the busiest of three similar crossings on the the most direct E-W traffic route through the city centre. Now, it's not a pretty street but it's been through a lot of appalling traffic schemes and the latest is a huge improvement on the pedestrian environment of previous iterations. Note that the sightlines are very good in terms of enabling drivers to read and anticipate pedestrian behaviours. I was there a little over half an hour. I offer a few observations for the purposes of the thread, with obvious anecdotal evidence caveat...
> 
> Almost all drivers stop at the crossing when legally required to do so (i.e. when someone has moved onto a crossing).
> However, the majority of drivers do not stop in anticipation of pedestrian movement, but wait until pedestrians are signalling their intention to cross by standing at the crossing and waiting/looking right and left. The zebra equivalent of amber-gambling, if you like. Quite a lot of drivers come to abrupt halt rather than slowing down before the crossing. Many move off before the crossing is clear.
> ...


Sadly, i am not willing or able to sit at a zebra crossing for 30 minutes to support or counter your report.

A few points to raise however. 

There are litter bins near the zebra crossing, which may not be clear to a motorist whether a pedestrian is intending to cross or approaching the bin. Note the right side, the bin looks closer to the crossing than it actually is, despite not being far away and slowing down in anticipation is wise by the motorist and although not a mandatory requirement, a pedestrian signalling their intention to cross is not at all unreasonable as they can be sure they have been seen. People including myself, flag down buses to ensure that they are seen at bus stops, which is also not a mandatory requirement. 

A driver nodding, waving or gesturing to a waiting pedestrian could be seen as a false acknowledgement for a pedestrian to cross, with disastrous consequences.

Drivers looking miserable and wearing impatient expressions to me seems a bizarre observation. What does an impatient expression look like from say 10ft away at the side of the road and behind the glass of a car? rolling eyes? twitching moustache?


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## 400ixl (10 Sep 2021)

So basically common courtesy had no negative effect, but some positive. Who'd of guessed.


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## yello (10 Sep 2021)

Has anyone, whilst driving, approached a crossing where somebody is hovering. You're not sure what they're doing so you slow... for them to step back and wave you on. They might even be on a mobile. 

Loads of stuff can happen. Sometimes people are just a bit thoughtless. I wouldn't use a single example of anything to judge everyone else. 

Still, there's thoughtless as a pedestrian and then there's thoughtless as a car/van/truck driver. (And - shock horror - thoughtless as a cyclists! Yes, I know!!) Be careful out there folks, and show some attention.


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## simongt (10 Sep 2021)

Or the lass that walked in front of me in city traffic and then said she would walk in the road if she wanted to. I thought 'Try declaring that when you're under an SUV with two broken legs and a crushed pelvis - !'


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## HMS_Dave (10 Sep 2021)

simongt said:


> Or the lass that walked in front of me in city traffic and then said she would walk in the road if she wanted to. I thought 'Try declaring that when you're under an SUV with two broken legs and a crushed pelvis - !'


Reminds me of my late Grandad. He'd stick is walking stick out in front of him and just walk across the road with a pipe in his mouth with the sound of horns going and tyre screeching. We can laugh now, but at the time he drove people mad!


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## yello (11 Sep 2021)

For all I've said, I do acknowledge (and I think most others would too) that vehicle drivers take to the road with a sense of privilege that is often not given to them by the law. I suspect most us as pedestrians, cyclists and indeed drivers have encountered this at some time, in some form or another.

I remember many moons ago (so many moons ago in fact that I think Adam had not yet been given their cowboy suit) when I lived in East London and used to cycle to university in central London. I was cutting across standstill traffic in Shoreditch (this was a time when there where only rats in Clerkenwell's empty work spaces, and the Hoxton hipsters where yet to be even a yearning in the loins of their parents) A driver wound down his window and simply said "no tax, no insurance". It baffled me then as this was the first time I'd heard that yet-to-be mantra. I reflected upon it, and obviously remember it still. Yes, he was undoubtedly pissed off by being stuck in traffic and perhaps envied that I could simply weave across it. But it also reflected a sense of entitlement he thought was given to him by virtue of him paying 'road tax' (and let's not have that debate) and insurance. It told me he thought I had fewer rights than him to be there.

That is the case still today. Vehicle drivers almost routinely make such assumptions, over one another even. T'aint 'right' is it?

Which brings us the question (partly) posed by the OP - how do we go about correcting that assumption of right? As I've inferred in numerous posts, in this and other threads, I'm not an 'in your face' kind of person. My short tempered and verbally abusive father unintentionally taught me how to seek the placatory path. Some might call it cowardice, I call it self protection. So I'm by no means an activist. But I do admire, and acknowledge the need for, people to take up that role - even when I might disagree with them. I'm thinking of all fields of activism here; Extinction Rebellion to Mary Whitehouse (and her NZ kindred spirit Patricia Bartlett - now there's a biopic) etc. We need activists. They highlight where we are and show us where we could be (where they believe we _should_ be) I further accept that we also need sometimes/always to offend and disrupt if we want change.

So, yes, I see that thanking drivers merely offers confirmation (unintentionally though it may be) to them that they have a right that, by law, they don't actually have. We are unwittingly supporting the status quo. To change that, we need to rattle those cages.

Will I start giving the finger to a driver who stops for me to cross the road? Hell no! I'm way to timid to engage in that sort of behaviour! But I can see why someone might. Neither would open aggression be my chosen method. I'm much more inclined to take the 'lead them to the water, even if they don't drink' path. But by whatever method, I would like to see the vehicle drivers assumption of right to be at least challenged, ideally dissolved.


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## yello (11 Sep 2021)

As a related adjunct, my wife told me that when she was taking driving lessons (coincidentally in Swansea) her driver instructor told her that pedestrians always have right of way at road junctions (though not motorways) pedestrian crossing or no. So if a pedestrian steps off the curb, has started to cross the road, then a car is expected to stop - though I'd guess there are relative 'duties of care' at play here too.

But, as we were in the process of crossing the Edgware Road in central London, I wasn't about to put that to test.


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## Punkawallah (11 Sep 2021)

Drivers should give way to “pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning”, so does not apply those who just step out as you drive along.


Unlike my wife, who’s of the opinion she can cross without checking as ‘they will see me’.


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## yello (11 Sep 2021)

We can all have a fascination for debating the minutiae that means we lose sight of the context or bigger picture. I guess that could be advantageously used (like a more subtle and less provocative 'dead cat' strategy) for either good or bad ends, if needs be. Or unwittingly triggered... with throwaway adjuncts for example.

But, yes, that was the circumstance I was in.


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## theclaud (11 Sep 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Reminds me of my late Grandad. He'd stick is walking stick out in front of him and just walk across the road with a pipe in his mouth with the sound of horns going and tyre screeching. We can laugh now, but at the time he drove people mad!


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## theclaud (11 Sep 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Drivers looking miserable and wearing impatient expressions to me seems a bizarre observation.



Clearly you've never waited at the top of Ditchling for the back of the ride to arrive! I'm merely suggesting that the demeanour of drivers sits uneasily with the belief that the waving and thanking is either indicative of, or advances, mutual good will and good humour.


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## glasgowcyclist (11 Sep 2021)

Punkawallah said:


> does not apply those who just step out as you drive along.



What’s the alternative?

The HC states:
“The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any circumstance, but they do advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.”


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## Punkawallah (11 Sep 2021)

I agree with the HC.


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## mjr (13 Sep 2021)

simongt said:


> Or the lass that walked in front of me in city traffic and then said she would walk in the road if she wanted to. I thought 'Try declaring that when you're under an SUV with two broken legs and a crushed pelvis - !'


1. That's normal operation in Norwich. Or at least it was when I arrived, decades ago. People just walked out. Maybe not on the arterial and ring roads (but much of the inner ring was at a standstill most of the day back then, which it feels like drivers today forget), but anywhere in city or district centres. Any time. It confused local drivers if you pushed one of those beg buttons and waited. It's entirely correct and proper IMO and was a joy to behold: pedestrians have priority and should be able to expect everything but animals to yield.

2. Farking motorists bullying people off the roads with threats of violent serious injury.  If you don't want to share the roads with people on foot or bikes, then go drive on a motorway.


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## swansonj (19 Sep 2021)

I was given a wave of thanks by a motorist last week for waiting at a give way sign on my side road and not trying to pull out onto his more major road in front of him. But this was in Jersey, where drivers seem to wait for you or make way for you at the drop of a hat. We gave a lot more waves of thanks in return - it felt natural given that it was reciprocal, an all-round more civilised experience.


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## Dolorous Edd (19 Sep 2021)

I am reminded of the old joke:

A man holds a door open for a woman.

The woman, affronted at the sexist implications of this gesture, asks "did you do that because I am a lady?"

The man replies: "no madam, I did it because I am a gentleman".


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## Jenkins (20 Sep 2021)

This afternoon I got a wave of thanks from a driver when I indicated left to show I was turning into a road that he was waiting to pull out of.


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## kayakerles (15 Oct 2021)

slowmotion said:


> I don't think that being civil to strangers should draw criticism.


I agree totally, SM. Everyone can act towards others as they see fit. I try to make eye contact with drivers as we meet at corners, etc. Seems to me that those that allow themselves to be undistracted calm human beings can actually interact with a smile, nod or wave now and then. Not required, not expected, but a pleasant moment when it happens. If they decide to flip me the bird instead, so it goes. My life's apparently going better than theirs at that particular moment. I hope theirs get better. I don’t do road rage stuff, with drivers, bikers or pedestrians. No one is going to change someone else.


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## Andy in Germany (15 Oct 2021)

It's rare for a driver not to stop here: when it happens it's usually a mistake on the part of the driver and I generally get an apologetic wave. 

That said, drivers generally say thank you here where I wait, so I find myself reciprocating and thanking them when they do. In Stuttgart they assume they have right of way and ignore cyclists, so I don't. 

Funny how my behaviour is so easily influenced by others...


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## BoldonLad (15 Oct 2021)

Andy in Germany said:


> It's rare for a driver not to stop here: when it happens it's usually a mistake on the part of the driver and I generally get an apologetic wave.
> 
> That said, drivers generally say thank you here where I wait, so I find myself reciprocating and thanking them when they do. In Stuttgart they assume they have right of way and ignore cyclists, so I don't.
> 
> *Funny how my behaviour is so easily influenced by others...*



Which perhaps, supports @slowmotion 's post:



slowmotion said:


> I don't think that being civil to strangers should draw criticism.


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## Andy in Germany (15 Oct 2021)

theclaud said:


> Drivers never wave thanks to me when I'm stood at the kerb waiting for them to go past before crossing.



Another way of looking at it may be that I don't wave thanks to drivers for not running me over on the pavement.


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