# Surly LHT advise



## draeyk (19 Jan 2010)

hey guys. So as I move a step closer to what seems like the purchase of a lifetime! Can anyone advise on these questions;

from what I hear adjusting the Tektro Oryx brakes involves so much stuffing around it’s not funny. Anyone had problems here? Should I look to another brake system or modle?

What do folk thing on 26" wheel as oppose 700cc for touring and climbing hills?I tend t have trailer think the 26" is sturdier? 

was also thinking of alternative to bar end gears. Seems might be awkward when struggling up a hill with a trailor to loose balance fiddling with gears.

If anyone has any brilliant ideas on what to go forr as I'm throwing my hat in on this and want to get the best mix from the get go.

Brixton bikes have been helpful but know what a fount of knowledge there is here

cheers in advance folks

this is all for a long haul trucker. I'm thinking this is the best in the range?


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jan 2010)

bar end shifters - less vulnerable to crash damage and when they break you can still keep riding and shifting to an extent. No so with combined brifters

26" wheel should be stronger like-for-like. Tyres probably more readily available in far away places. I've got bikes with both, can't say that is a defining difference.

LHT is very much in vogue de jour and regarded by many as the mutts nutts outside of custom builds and boutiques and Brixton really know how build them up. The two Brixton bikes I've seen have made me drool and I want one!


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## Amanda P (19 Jan 2010)

For expedition touring in the back of beyond, many go for 26" wheels, just because rims, tyres and tubes in this size can be had anywhere in the world. (My 26" wheeled bike always feels slow, but that's probably because of its crap tyres, not the wheel size).

If it's the back of beyond you have in mind, Greg's advice is good: STIs or ergos have a nasty tendency to fail or to be bashed by baggage handlers, and are not easily replaced in Kathmandu or Timbuktoo. Down tube levers or bar-end levers served us all well for decades before STIs and ergos came along, and they are much more idiot-proof.

On the other hand, if you're not planning to visit the back of beyond much, build a bike that you enjoy riding. For me, that'd mean ergos and probably 700 wheels (or a Moulton).


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## Anthony (19 Jan 2010)

I have Tektro Oryx brakes on my Dawes Galaxy and they are reasonable brakes. I have found them easy to adjust; you just need to loosen the bolt with an allen key and pull or losen the brake cable to what is needed then tighten the bolt again. The only slight problem I have found with them is when I am fully loaded on tour, the brakes effectiveness is not great on certain downhill sections. But I think this would be the case with any cantilever brake set up. Disk brakes would obviously be better but then they are more complicated to fix if they go wrong.

As for wheel size I cannot comment on 26'' as I have never ridden them, but I have used 700cc wheels on several tours and the bike is very sturdy. 

I would reccomend keeping the bar end shifters. LHT and Galaxys come with them for a reason; they are the best choice for a tour. I know they are an aquired taste, but for me they are the best option. On tour, cable tension tends to change; bar end shifters can cope with that but other set ups can't so well. They should only take one ride to get used to them and then they will seem very natural to use. 

In general the set up on the LHT is very good. But I would change the saddle and invest in a good touring saddle (maybe a brooks?). As for being the best in the range, i'm not sure. I have a strong bias towards my Galaxy  But to be fair they are basically the same bike.

Hope this helps.


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## John the Monkey (19 Jan 2010)

draeyk said:


> from what I hear adjusting the Tektro Oryx brakes involves so much stuffing around it’s not funny. Anyone had problems here? Should I look to another brake system or modle?



Cantilever brakes need careful setup full stop - definitely consider some sort of inline adjuster to make the process easier. You could go for V brakes which are simple, but you will need V brake specific levers or your brakes will not stop you.


> What do folk thing on 26" wheel as oppose 700cc for touring and climbing hills?I tend t have trailer think the 26" is sturdier?


A well built 700c wheel will be stronger than a poorly built 26" wheel - for equal quality components & build quality, the 26" will be stronger. 

Personally, I got 700c wheels on my LHT, because it meant not having to think about different tube sizes &c on my last tour. (Mrs Monkey's bike having 700c wheels). It's worth noting that prior to 2010 the LHT had 700c or 26" wheels according to frame size - if you're buying a 2009 model, you may not have a choice! 


> was also thinking of alternative to bar end gears. Seems might be awkward when struggling up a hill with a trailor to loose balance fiddling with gears.


See the other comments on this - I have STi on mine (Tiagra). There's nothing to stop you sticking a pair of downtube shifters in your saddle bag if you're really worried about the STis failing, and would prefer to ride using brifters though.

Whether the LHT is best is a matter of debate, I think - I like mine a lot, although other people would favour the Dawes Galaxy, Thorn Club Tour, etc etc. People doing proper rough stuff touring don't like the LHT in some cases because of its low bottom bracket. 

Have a look at the bikes at minimum, ideally ride some and see what you think.


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## John the Monkey (19 Jan 2010)

Anthony said:


> I
> I would reccomend keeping the bar end shifters. LHT and Galaxys come with them for a reason; they are the best choice for a tour. I know they are an aquired taste, but for me they are the best option. On tour, cable tension tends to change; bar end shifters can cope with that but other set ups can't so well. They should only take one ride to get used to them and then they will seem very natural to use.


The downtube cable stops I use on my LHT have cable tension adjustment barrels on them, and the rear mech has one too. IME, cable tension changes aren't a problem with a well set up STi system. (By which I mean one where thought has been given to adjustability). The arguments for Barcons seem to me to be more convincing in terms of repairability, reliability(?) and simplicity (imo)


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## andym (19 Jan 2010)

You might find it worth asking on an American forum (eg crazyguyonabike) simply because there are a lot more surly owners around. It does seem to have a very good reputation.

I agree with what people say about bar end shifters. They are very easy to use and you have the option of going frictionless - and it's very easy to carry a pair of spare levers (unfortunately they aren't interchangeable). If you are worried about scrabbling around and not being able to find the levers, I suspect you'll find you quickly get used to it. And to be honest, when I'm touring it's change down at the bottom of the hill and change up when I get to the top.

If you find that you really don't get on with having the shifters on the bar end you could get some converters to turn them into 'thumbies' sitting on top of the bar.

Bar-ends also mean that you have the option of fitting v-brakes with v-brake compatible levers (eg Diacompe 287Vs - from Spa Cycles). EDIT: but I don't know whether you can fit standard v-brakes on the Surly, you might need to go for Tektro 'mini-vs'. some people say that these don't leave enough clearance for mudguards and big tyres - I've got mudguards and a 25c tyre on my Pompino, and there's still a fair bit of clearance so you could definitely go bigger but I couldn't say by how much.


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## MacB (19 Jan 2010)

if you want bigger clearances then it's full size v brakes or cantis, mini v's offer no more than a long drop dual pivot. If you want to use V's then the Tektro RL520 drop bar lever is the best rated. Though there does seem to be more love for newer style cantis, again Tektro are highly thought of with the CR520. Having looked into this I've found that you can get the setup you want but there is a payoff:-

Brakes - the LHT has clearance for tyres up to 42mm with guards, you can run as skinny as you like. To allow yourself options then it's V brake or canti. V's require approx double the cable pull of any other rim brake, therefore need a lever to match or a cable pull adjuster installed at the noodle part. 

Shifters - there are 5 realistic options, STI/Ergo only compatible for short pull brakes, down tube shifters, bar end shifters, bar ends shifters mounted on tops as thumbies and MTB shifter pods mounted on the tops(this requires that you file out the inner clamp diameter to fit road bars and squeeze round the bends, is doable as I've just done a set).

I'm currently setting up bars with tektro aero levers for v-brakes, inline v-brake levers and MTB pods on the flats as well.


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## irc (19 Jan 2010)

My LHT is a 60cm 700c wheeled model. I've got bar end shifters, parallel push V brakes with Dia-Compe 287v Levers.

I did a USA coast to coast last year with no problems at all bar 3 punctures from Goathead thorns in Colorado and Kansas and adjusting a gear cable once.


My last tourer was a Galaxy, mid 90s 531ST model. The LHT frame is stiffer so better for loaded touring. I compared them side by side and the LHT has main tubes of a slightly bigger diamer than my Galaxy. Not a huge amount maybe 10%, which I assume is the reason for the stiffer feel to the frame. 

Because of the flex the Galaxy would shade it for riding unloaded on bad roads. The LHT is far more stable though. With front and rear panniers I could coast downhill from 18mph up to 35mph. The Galaxy was never that forgiving. I was carrying full camping gear. Maybe 30 pounds kit (including pannier weights) before food and water .With 32mm Marathons fitted it coped well with about 60 or 70 miles of unsurfaced county roads during my transam. There's plenty good tourers out there but for loaded touring on road and towpath/tracks I can't fault the LHT though.


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## yashicamat (19 Jan 2010)

I'll chip in with my bit; I really like my LHT - I think it's a fab bike and a bit of a bargain too compared side by side with a Galaxy. The only weak link with the LHT (and it is shared with the Galaxy and an awful lot of other touring bikes) is the braking ability. Unloaded, it's OK . . . but as has been mentioned, coming down a 20% gradient with full panniers on can be a bit scary, builds your forearm muscles anyway.  I am trialling some much better pads on the front of mine though and so far, they're a lot more effective but nothing even remotely close to the dual pivots on my SS.

The LHT is a smart and comfortable touring bike that copes very well with big loads. I give it the thumbs up. 

More info on mine in the reviews section where I wrote an article on it: Linky


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## MacB (20 Jan 2010)

yashicamat said:


> I am trialling some much better pads on the front of mine though and so far, they're a lot more effective but nothing even remotely close to the dual pivots on my SS.



Having seen this sort of comment a fair bit I'm curious as to a bit more background. Are the DPs on your SS subjected to the same sort of braking extremes as the tourer? My obvious concern is whether it's comparing like for like. My understanding is that brakes, by power, are rated disc, v, DP and canti, but with a lot of poor canti performance being blamed on lower quality brakes and poor setup.


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Jan 2010)

^^ indeed which is why my touring bike has discs


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## MacB (20 Jan 2010)

GregCollins said:


> ^^ indeed which is why my touring bike has discs



Greg, wouldn't that give you some concerns about spares/repairs if anything went wrong, or are disc parts widely available?


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## rich p (20 Jan 2010)

I've been up and down nearly every mountain in the Alps and Dolomites using my Galaxy's Avid cantilevers and have never had a problem with stopping, even with 4 panniers and a tent.
I've never found them difficult to adjust either. There may well be something better but they're good enough for me until they fail!


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## upsidedown (20 Jan 2010)

Not had a problem with the Oryx brakes on my LHT.
Bar end shifters are great, i took the advice of yashicamat and switched off the indexing, much nicer.
Fitted a Brooks standard B17.
Tyres are Conti 38s on Alex Adventurer 36 spoke rims, no problems even after 5000+ miles of commuting through the potholes of Birmingham and the Black Country.
With full XT groupset and hubs it's basically as tough as a mountain bike, not the lightest but will last for a very long time.


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## yashicamat (20 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> Having seen this sort of comment a fair bit I'm curious as to a bit more background. Are the DPs on your SS subjected to the same sort of braking extremes as the tourer? My obvious concern is whether it's comparing like for like. My understanding is that brakes, by power, are rated disc, v, DP and canti, but with a lot of poor canti performance being blamed on lower quality brakes and poor setup.



I believe the mechanical advantage of DPs is a lot better than cantilever brakes. The downside of this is the tolerance on the wheel (and the space available for the levers to work over, i.e., mudguard clearance is tiny and only narrow tyres will fit) is very very tight as the pads are only a few mm away from the wheel at rest. I believe V-brakes have a similar mechanical advantage, but it is achieved I _think_ through changing the direction of the force applied, rather than through the use of several pivots as with DPs.

The braking performance between the tourer and the SS are not that incomparable with unloaded bikes. The SS is 5kg lighter than the tourer, but factor in the 75kg of me on it and the actual overall reduction in weight isn't massive. Obviously start strapping panniers etc. on the LHT and things change.

I personally would be slightly sceptical about having discs on a touring bike. I certainly wouldn't be happy using mechanical discs as I've generally found them inferior to V-brakes (although I may have been unlucky) and hydraulics, while they have been totally reliable and effective on the MTB so far, are just a liability I wouldn't want if cycling somewhere remote. Get a leak in the system and there's no way that can be fixed on the roadside. Cantis are so simple they are unlikely to go wrong, anything that does though can probably be fixed.

upsidedown: glad you've seen the light with turning the indexing off. So much smoother and you never need worry about "adjusting" gears ever again (apart from limit screws I suppose . . .).


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> Greg, wouldn't that give you some concerns about spares/repairs if anything went wrong, or are disc parts widely available?



A good point. My 'touring' thinking is formed from my MTB'ing experience rather than being an ex-roadie so long ago it no longer counts. I wouldn't use her outside UK/Europe. I have no plans for a world tour but if the lottery comes up....

I carry spare pads, which I bought outside Bristol in a bike shop I liked the look of when riding past one day. Important to choose disc brakes that share pads with MTB's. So Avid BB7's are the way to go. BB5 pads aren't usually stock items but the BB7 pad is the same as some of their popular MTB ones.

I did a bit of research in that I was sad enough to walk into all manner of LBS's over a period of time and ask "do you stock such and such" If they said yes I bought a gratitube or an energy bar and went on my way. Wouldn't expect a road focused LBS to stock 'em but every town has a MTB shop, and the pads are stock items in Shitehuts. Cables are bog standard cables. 

I work on the assumption that anything that will eff the rotors up will eff up other parts of the bike and my body pretty badly. That has been my experience of (hydraulic) discs on MTB's. In fact one MTB still has an effed rotor I bent back into shape with an adjustable spanner and the strap of my bum bag. Still works fine though it has been retired from full on use away.


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Jan 2010)

yashicamat said:


> I personally would be slightly sceptical about having discs on a touring bike. I certainly wouldn't be happy using mechanical discs as I've generally found them inferior to V-brakes (although I may have been unlucky) and hydraulics, while they have been totally reliable and effective on the MTB so far, are just a liability I wouldn't want if cycling somewhere remote. Get a leak in the system and there's no way that can be fixed on the roadside. Cantis are so simple they are unlikely to go wrong, anything that does though can probably be fixed.



Have never done a back to back compare between mech discs and V braked MTB's as all my disc-ed MTB's have had hydraulics. I hear people say V's are better but struggle to believe it IF the discs are set up properly

The Avid BB7's on my tourer have huge stopping power, great modulation, work pretty much the same wet or dry and way way better than rim brakes in the wet esp on roughstuff. The secret to this is Avid Full Metal Jackets and a painstaking approach to fitting the cables and setting up the callipers. Having had a tyre blow out years back from hot rims on a touring ATB in France with off road excursion as a result I decided discs were the way to go.


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Jan 2010)

rich p said:


> I've been up and down nearly every mountain in the Alps and Dolomites using my Galaxy's Avid cantilevers and have never had a problem with stopping, even with 4 panniers and a tent.
> I've never found them difficult to adjust either. There may well be something better but they're good enough for me until they fail!



Don't doubt it. You find them easy to adjust so you keep them well set up and adjusted perhaps? Being a big(ger) lad I need a head start in the brake department before I load the bike up!


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## MacB (21 Jan 2010)

Greg, how hard are BB7's to set up and what sort of maintenance regime do they require?


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## GrumpyGregry (21 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> Greg, how hard are BB7's to set up and what sort of maintenance regime do they require?


Well I am not known for my finesse or subtlety in these matters which sometimes counts against me when I do things against the clock.

Let's expand the question and cover installing them too.

You need a third hand tool to install them properly or change the cables (and a proper cable cutter, and a heat gun (hairdrier was fine) and a decent hacksaw if putting full metal jackets on as well which I thoroughly recommend - but hey you're a cyclist you already have all these things.)

NB They need an inline cable adjuster when used with drops which no bike manufacturer seems to put on when they spec them as OE even though the instructions say it is mandatory.

You need to disregard the factory fitting and fettling instructions; the right way to do it is freely available on the net via Mr G. Oogle, and is proof, as far as this fool goes at least provided you follow it to the letter. Initial set up is a simple methodical iterative process. Adjustment for wear on the road is then the only maintenance they need, if used with FMJ's anyway, and this is tool free and simply a matter of repeating the last few steps of the install process. Take 2 mins max per brake if you are a bit slow like me. As does replacing a rotor if you need to.

BB5's otoh were a pita to adjust on the road. Impossible to do with cold wet fingers.


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## Tedx (21 Jan 2010)

The main advantage of bar end shifters is still having two hands on the bars while riding along. This gives much more control than having to have only one hand contacting the bars while shifting from the tube shifters. I have done thousands of miles with bar end shifters and come off the bike a few times. A few scratches but nothing more than that.

My next bike will be a 26 inch wheeler


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## andym (21 Jan 2010)

GregCollins said:


> You need a third hand tool to install them properly or change the cables (and a proper cable cutter, and a heat gun (hairdrier was fine) and a decent hacksaw if putting full metal jackets on as well which I thoroughly recommend - but hey you're a cyclist you already have all these things.)



Eh? Third hand tool? Heat gun? Hair dryer? I think you're overcomplicating things.

Installation the same as with v-brakes (need a decent set of cable cutters but nothing else). Adjust the tension in the same way as you would with v-brakes. Centre the brake using the knurled knob on the brake. Job done.

Maintenance - same as with v-brakes - use the inline adjuster and then if you've taken up all of the slack undo the bolt at the brake, pull the cable taut and retighten.


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Jan 2010)

andym said:


> Eh? Third hand tool? Heat gun? Hair dryer? I think you're overcomplicating things.
> 
> Installation the same as with v-brakes (need a decent set of cable cutters but nothing else). Adjust the tension in the same way as you would with v-brakes. Centre the brake using the knurled knob on the brake. Job done.
> 
> Maintenance - same as with v-brakes - use the inline adjuster and then if you've taken up all of the slack undo the bolt at the brake, pull the cable taut and retighten.



read the flippin' post; I said you need the heat gun IF you are installing full metal jackets...

you may succeed in setting up BB's and V's without a third hand. I have one and use it because it makes it easier and quicker and makes for a much crisper sharper less squishy braking action on V's or BB's

What's that noise... St Sheldon spinning in his grave?

The inline adapter, which will odds on not be fitted if the BB's are OE on a new bike, is there to deal only with cable stretch not to adjust the brakes. I beleive using it as a pad wear compensator is symptomatic of poor setup. Why else do avid put wear adjuster knobs on the brakes and yadda on about using them in the instructions? Once you set the cable up properly on a set of BB's it should never ever need reclamping again for the life of the brakes. New pads? wind back the two adjuster knobs pop 'em in. recentre adjust for feel distance from rotor job done.

YMMV.


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## andym (22 Jan 2010)

GregCollins said:


> read the flippin' post; I said you need the heat gun IF you are installing full metal jackets...



Ah right, I'd read it as only the hacksaw bit applied to fitting full metal jackets.


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## MacB (22 Jan 2010)

andym said:


> Ah right, I'd read it as you needed a hacksaw if using full metal jackets.



don't know why he changed his name from GrumpyGreg


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> don't know why he changed his name from GrumpyGreg



'k off  

(only joking)


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## GrumpyGregry (22 Jan 2010)

MacB said:


> don't know why he changed his name from GrumpyGreg



'k off   

(only joking)


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## GrahamG (26 Jan 2010)

I've gone for 26" wheels for both me (2010 model 56cm) and the other half (2009 48cm -no choice!), flat bars with V-brakes and mtb shifter pods (packing a spare pair of old school friction shifters just in case). I just don't understand the obsession with using drops, it makes things more of a pain with regards to shifting and braking (mtb shifter pods are simpler than sti's and far less likely to be damaged). Bar ends and ergo style grips will do the job for me.


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