# E-MTB - Errosion damage ?



## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Many won't like this, but from a ride I did today with 4 other 'poor fekkers' on analogue MTB's, was that trail centres are getting over run by electric two wheel go carts !

Today's 10 miles took us quite a while, about 2.5 hours with our legs only. We kept catching a bunch of e-MTB riders after they literally flew past on climbs, but we caught them else where... 

What I did notice, was bike tyre marks and 'lines' where there shouldn't be. Many parts are difficult to ride, so us non 'electric' lot get off and push, but I noticed loads of off trail lines where e-mtb's had been up (impossible for any non-olympian to ride).

A fair amount of this was causing additional errosion to the trail and difficulty getting through on 'foot'. Certain trail centres cater for this as it's more commercial, but a forest track with little or no supprort can't cope with this extra "I'll go anywhere attitude"

Maybe it's the riders ?

We chatted to the 'guys' a fair amount today, they were taking more breaks than us, but they just cleared stuff us 'human's couldn't, and looking at them, we were certainly 'fitter'. One was riding round in 'wellies'.... 

There needs to be education when riding a machine that an output much more power than a 'fit' rider, and where to ride - the errosion in this forest was down to folk riding where you normally can't.

Did have to laugh when we passed three of the electric guys crashed off a boardwalk section.. 

PS this isn't an anti-ebike rant, but from today, we saw more of them than normal bikes, and their riding was much less enviromentally acceptable. 

Views ?


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## dan_bo (30 Dec 2021)

E-MTBs. Not while I have breath in my body- but agreed- the mess made was noticeable.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

Difficult to picture exactly what you mean as the forest trails round here are quite substantial but if I'm honest, I'm a fan of everyone and anyone out on bikes and don't really see why there's an issue.


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## dan_bo (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Difficult to picture exactly what you mean as the forest trails round here are quite substantial but if I'm honest, I'm a fan of everyone and anyone out on bikes and don't really see why there's an issue.


Cos they're bigger heavier and more powerful than an MTB. They can make a right mess where, as Foss sez, a normal MTBer would get off and push, EMTBs just seem to blat through.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Difficult to picture exactly what you mean as the forest trails round here are quite substantial but if I'm honest, I'm a fan of everyone and anyone out on bikes and don't really see why there's an issue.



I am a fan of getting folk get out, but there is responsible use, and just taking the 'hiss' - the lines taken were just erroding what there was. 

This is a proper Red/Black trail, but's been getting wrecked by e-MTBers

OK the group had some 'older riders' - we are older riders ourselves, but there were a fair amount of guys in full wet gear - their own lot said 'are you not hot' - they said 'we aren't really trying'.... we were trying to lose clothing as we were sweatting buckets at 13c...

The issue is there is a trail, 2 ft wide or so, but there were 'lines' very wide of this which were only possible by e-MTB's or Olympians.., 2ft becomes 12 ft....


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## classic33 (30 Dec 2021)

It's a piece that will have to looked at by those who run such centres. 
In the short term it may gain extra revenue, in the longer term the damage of five years will take a lot longer to repair. It might even be permanent, meaning the closure of the trails/centres.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> I am a fan of getting folk get out, but there is responsible use, and just taking the 'hiss' - the lines taken were just erroding what there was.
> 
> This is a proper Red/Black trail, but's been getting wrecked by e-MTBers
> 
> ...


Yes the 2 for becoming 12 foot is an issue but more in the wild, so to speak. If this is a recognised trail then it will be maintained.


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## classic33 (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> I am a fan of getting folk get out, but there is responsible use, and just taking the 'hiss' - the lines taken were just erroding what there was.
> 
> This is a proper Red/Black trail, but's been getting wrecked by e-MTBers
> 
> ...


Similar to more people "hitting the hills" with very little knowledge of what walking "just off the path" leads to.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> It's a piece that will have to looked at by those who run such centres.
> In the short term it may gain extra revenue, in the longer term the damage of five years will take a lot longer to repair. It might even be permanent, meaning the closure of the trails/centres.



The damage is outrunning the non-funded centres. Llandegla is coping with it as it's commercial - although the braking 'bumps' in places aren't right, but the Forrestry Commission stuff.... no it won't cope. You are running bikes capable of 3x the power of most 'FIT' folk on a 'feature'.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Yes the 2 for becoming 12 foot is an issue but more in the wild, so to speak. If this is a recognised trail then it will be maintained.



It's not maintained to that extent as the funding does not allow - was obvious. We had a great time, but could see the damage being done by the motor lot...


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

dan_bo said:


> Cos they're bigger heavier and more powerful than an MTB. They can make a right mess where, as Foss sez, a normal MTBer would get off and push, EMTBs just seem to blat through.


I really can't see the issue on a maintained trail that is built specifically for bikes. 

I'll leave it there though as I think the trails I use are much more substantial so I am probably missing something.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> It's not maintained to that extent as the funding does not allow - was obvious. We had a great time, but could see the damage being done by the motor lot...


They are part of life now and all trails should be catering for all. Can't see them being that different if I'm honest, are you sure all the damage was done by these boys?


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## classic33 (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> The damage is outrunning the non-funded centres. Llandegla is coping with it as it's commercial - although the braking 'bumps' in places aren't right, but the Forrestry Commission stuff.... no it won't cope. You are running bikes capable of 3x the power of most 'FIT' folk on a 'feature'.


It'll become a "running feature". As the damage in one area becomes to great, they'll move onto new ground and repeat.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> Similar to more people "hitting the hills" with very little knowledge of what walking "just off the path" leads to.


That is definitely an issue that more people need to be aware off. I suppose a little education would be helpful for trail users as well but they are not usually in super sensitive areas like a lot of the hills.


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## classic33 (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> I really can't see the issue on a maintained trail that is built specifically for bikes.
> 
> I'll leave it there though as I think the trails I use are much more substantial so I am probably missing something.


If whilst you were on such a trail, and the rear wheel, and your legs, couldn't provide forward traction, what would you do?

The motor gives extra power, which may simply remove enough soil to form a small channel. The same with if your rear wheel starts to spin taking the top layer off, and no forward motion. Do you power through the area, or get off and push. Or find a piece of ground that will allow you through.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> That is definitely an issue that more people need to be aware off. I suppose a little education would be helpful for trail users as well but they are not usually in super sensitive areas like a lot of the hills.



We came over a climb over some rocks today, and it was like WTF..... I had no idea where to go as it was a mess - that doesn't happen with pedal powered stuff. Stick to the trail, or walk it (on the trail).


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> That is definitely an issue that more people need to be aware off. I suppose a little education would be helpful for trail users as well but they are not usually in super sensitive areas like a lot of the hills.



No they aren't in super sensitive areas, but it's 'leave nothing but foot prints'.... keep it as it should be.... leave no litter.....no trace... ride in areas that are sensitive too !


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

classic33 said:


> If whilst you were on such a trail, and the rear wheel, and your legs, couldn't provide forward traction, what would you do?
> 
> The motor gives extra power, which may simply remove enough soil to form a small channel. The same with if your rear wheel starts to spin taking the top layer off, and no forward motion. Do you power through the area, or get off and push. Or find a piece of ground that will allow you through.


I'm obviously missing something because I don't really understand why you would expect me to get off and push if I didn't need to.


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## dan_bo (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> I'm obviously missing something because I don't really understand why you would expect me to get off and push if I didn't need to.


Cos not doing so ends up in the ground being ripped up more than it would otherwise. You get that.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> I'm obviously missing something because I don't really understand why you would expect me to get off and push if I didn't need to.



I was seeing lines that should not have been ridden, but the power rangers did it that was 'off' the trail. The 'off trail' stuff was astounding... why ride it, just 'because' you have 'power'. Stick on what's provided...


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

dan_bo said:


> Cos not doing so ends up in the ground being ripped up more than it would otherwise. You get that.


Yes I get that but I'm on a bike on a bike trail. I may be having more fun than those not on an ebike but that's their business.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> I was seeing lines that should not have been ridden, but the power rangers did it that was 'off' the trail. The 'off trail' stuff was astounding... why ride it, just 'because' you have 'power'. Stick on what's provided...


Yes I get that, that is a wider problem that does need looking at but it isn't always just ebikes that do that.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Yes I get that but I'm on a bike on a bike trail. I may be having more fun than those not on an ebike but that's their business.



Define a bike trail....... following the 6" to 2 foot wide trail is OK, e-biking it, over something else to power over an obstical is different.

Get that ? Saw it today....


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## classic33 (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> No they aren't in super sensitive areas, but it's 'leave nothing but foot prints'.... keep it as it should be.... leave no litter.....no trace... ride in areas that are sensitive too !


It's any area that is accessible on two wheels really. The damage done in one area will move the damage further down. Especially if there's water involved.

Nature has evolved to adapt to slower term change. You'll often see livestock taking a daft line across soft ground, and from higher up you'll be able to see the tracks they've used for years. It's a way through for you, if treated with respect.


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> Define a bike trail....... following the 6" to 2 foot wide trail is OK, e-biking it, over something else to power over an obstical is different.
> 
> Get that ? Saw it today....


I'm sure you did. Maybe just get rid of all the bikes and pedestrianise the lit then we can reduce the erosion further. Leave only footprints then.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Yes I get that, that is a wider problem that does need looking at but it isn't always just ebikes that do that.



E-bikes were making a mess today of 'bike' trails... Put it this way, you aren't getting a beginner on most trails today... (unless funded)... my wife asks, she has a 29'er that's better than my bike, but she would 'die' on nothing other than a green family trail...


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> I'm sure you did. Maybe just get rid of all the bikes and pedestrianise the lit then we can reduce the erosion further. Leave only footprints then.



Ebiker, or e-biker menace ? Or better still, full on E-MX bike !

I was seeing bad use of our countryside today... !


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> Ebiker, or e-biker menace ? Or better still, full on E-MX bike !
> 
> I was seeing bad use of our countryside today... !


The truth will always out in the end. 

Night night.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> The truth will always out in the end.
> 
> Night night.



TTFN, don't get a short circuit !


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## classic33 (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> I'm obviously missing something because I don't really understand why you would expect me to get off and push if I didn't need to.


It may just lead to very sterile trails.
Go back to the taking to the hills I mentioned, the Pennine Way in parts locally, has become a sterile walk, over large stone slabs. Which you are expected to stick to. The once enjoyable slog up to the summit of Snowden has become a very sterile slog up stairs. Again you are expected to keep to them. The damage done is all but permanent.


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## dan_bo (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> Yes I get that but I'm on a bike on a bike trail. I may be having more fun than those not on an ebike but that's their business.


Aye but is it right that the trails are made quite substantially worse by you having 'more fun' than everyone else?


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## dan_bo (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> The truth will always out in the end.
> 
> Night night.


Reckon?


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

dan_bo said:


> Reckon?


I reckon so bo.


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## fossyant (30 Dec 2021)

Slick said:


> I reckon so bo.



Leccy biker alert !! 👅


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> Leccy biker alert !! 👅


Am I?


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## Slick (30 Dec 2021)

fossyant said:


> Leccy biker alert !! 👅


And would we really need an alert if I was? 

Anyway, been a blast.


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## roadrash (31 Dec 2021)

I cant decide whether slick genuinely doesnt see a problem or is just on the wind up, or simply believes that folk should be allowed to do whatever they want regardless of consequences, there does seem to be more and more folk like that in all walks of life lately.


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## cougie uk (31 Dec 2021)

I'm struggling with the leave nothing but footprints. How does that tie in with tyretracks ?

Clearly all bikes damage the ground but I can see that the more power the more damage.


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## I like Skol (31 Dec 2021)

I was on the ride with Fossy, Dan & co.

It was very obvious that the damage was ebike related. Many parts of the trail where there was any slight technical aspect (not even really technical, but one man's easy is another man's impossible) on an uphill section has just resulted in riders going around the sides and powering up the softer ground that would be unrideable without e-power. This was making a huge mess and ruining the trail for everyone else as the defined track is now just a raised island in the muck that is impossible to get onto.

I think I can point to the exact reason this rise in eMTB use has occured and I have seen it first hand in people I know. It was also clearly demonstrated by many of the riders seen yesterday, dressing up in full overtrousers, coats and wellies etc.

The popularity of the dirt bike in previous decades has waned somewhat. Illegal use has become more difficult as old industrial wastelands have been developed for housing or reclaimed and turned into nature reserves and similar. Organised weekend competitive events have also become less available due to land/venue shortages, greater red tape and insurance issues in an environment of stricter H&S and liability, also pressure from surrounding residents and landowners who try to prevent events (NIMBY).
I know people with dirt bikes who have sold up as they simply can't use them anymore and can't justify the cost to attend the 2 or 3 official events a year that remain.

Guess what they have done, without fail?

Yep, bought eMTBs so they can continue to get their powered speed fix and stuff the damage this causes. It just isn't in their logic to consider the impact of the damage as this is just not a factor to dirt bike use.

Now we have the exact same people that used to tear up the old slag heaps or race around the local paths and bridleways before they got festooned with the restrictor gates we all loath so much, turning up at the trail centres with hi-power eMTBs.

The result is quite predictable


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## roadrash (31 Dec 2021)

^^^^this, in a nutshell^^^^


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## raleighnut (31 Dec 2021)

Couldn't have put it better myself

and as for them being sold 'for off road use only'


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## roadrash (31 Dec 2021)

raleighnut said:


> and as for them being sold 'for off road use only'




Surely you are not trying to imply that they are being used on roads too  ,theres a few round here on the roads ridden by nob eds i was passed while doing 30mph in the car by one yesterday, closely followed by three bell ends piled onto a quad.


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## FishFright (31 Dec 2021)

Its pretty bad on cannock chase where the uphill corners are being cut


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## PK99 (31 Dec 2021)

I like Skol said:


> I was on the ride with Fossy, Dan & co.
> 
> It was very obvious that the damage was ebike related. Many parts of the trail where there was any slight technical aspect (not even really technical, but one man's easy is another man's impossible) on an uphill section has just resulted in riders going around the sides and powering up the softer ground that would be unrideable without e-power. This was making a huge mess and ruining the trail for everyone else as the defined track is now just a raised island in the muck that is impossible to get onto.
> 
> ...



Great analysis.

The same process as MtB use on footpaths (as opposed to bridleways) a few years ago when we were walking with young kids, and still occurring in some places I know, where MtB's made the foot path an impassable muddy mess.

Ditto, the conflict between "I have a right to be here" legal but aggressive MtB-ers on Bridleways in conflict with riders on horses.


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## Hacienda71 (31 Dec 2021)

I was on the ride as well yesterday and the sheer numbers of what I might describe as Strava lines going across virgin land was shocking. I have no issue with Emtb's if they are used with respect and follow the trail, but smashing lines that simply wouldn't normally exist, damaging the landscape is poor form.
I have seen it with motorbikes in the Peak District on bridleways that become difficult for both peds, horseriders and mtb'ers to navigate because some dick on a powered vehicle thinks it is ok to rip up the trail. It really isn't and I hope, although I fear the worst, the Emtb's will understand this.


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## Ridgeway (31 Dec 2021)

I met an e-MTB guy yesterday, pushing his stead up a hill, so was i but mine was a tad lighter... it was 25% and super slippy so no amount of leccy was going to help anyone. 

To be fair the ground is currently so soft anything is churning it up here after a lot of snow melt and now rain, but i agree with the original comment about e-MTB's literally ripping it up trails at full tilt with wheels spinning etc, i'm probably just envious

I'll have to dig out the old Minions


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## richtea (2 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Many won't like this, but from a ride I did today with 4 other 'poor fekkers' on analogue MTB's, was that trail centres are getting over run by electric two wheel go carts !
> ...
> 
> PS this isn't an anti-ebike rant, but from today, we saw more of them than normal bikes, and their riding was much less enviromentally acceptable.
> ...


From an enjoyment point of view, it's a common problem - a facility becomes popular and gets spoilt by over-use. It will settle into a balanced halfway house, i.e. some people don't like it any more and don't return = less damage for others. This applies regardless of eMTBs.

From an envronmental point of view, driving 50 miles to the MTB centre probably does more environmental damage than riding around it.
(Not picking on you, by the way - I also stick my bike in the car occasionally.)


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## Time Waster (2 Jan 2022)

Used to see a lot of damage from bikes in the lakes. Was years before eMTBs though. Does this just mean the issue is irresponsible riders doing stuff beyond their abilities and the bikes used is a bit of a side issue. Especially since I still see non electric MTBs being ridden irresponsibly causing erosion these days. How would you propose solving irresponsible riders causing damage? All bikes cause damage that's often greater than the humble boot print. Even walking causes damage however that's more to do with the greater numbers doing it than individuals doing the damage. 

If there's money trails can be made better such that it's harder or less favourable to ride off trail. Perhaps better engineered trails? 

What's your ideas? Just ban the electric bikes? In that case there's places you'd need to apply that to all mountain bike use. The only option is to manage it I reckon. That's money that's needed for that I fear isn't available.


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## Arrowfoot (2 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> We came over a climb over some rocks today, and it was like WTF..... I had no idea where to go as it was a mess - that doesn't happen with pedal powered stuff. Stick to the trail, or walk it (on the trail).


Unfortunately these guys don't get it. This why an oddball and overzealous environmentalist starts stringing wires across trails.


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## classic33 (2 Jan 2022)

Time Waster said:


> Used to see a lot of damage from bikes in the lakes. Was years before eMTBs though. Does this just mean the issue is irresponsible riders doing stuff beyond their abilities and the bikes used is a bit of a side issue. Especially since I still see non electric MTBs being ridden irresponsibly causing erosion these days. How would you propose solving irresponsible riders causing damage? All bikes cause damage that's often greater than the humble boot print. Even walking causes damage however that's more to do with the greater numbers doing it than individuals doing the damage.
> 
> If there's money trails can be made better such that it's harder or less favourable to ride off trail. Perhaps better engineered trails?
> 
> What's your ideas? Just ban the electric bikes? In that case there's places you'd need to apply that to all mountain bike use. The only option is to manage it I reckon. That's money that's needed for that I fear isn't available.


If the site is charging for usage, then there should be money and the option to vary the trails, allowing work on the damaged sections to be done.

I likened it earlier to people walking of the track leading to "sterile" paths. Paths which are nothing more than large stone slab's. Five miles of slabs cutting across the countryside does stand out.

Maybe something like this, along the lines of the Country Code, needs considering.
http://www.mountainbikeni.com/useful-info/mtb-code-of-conduct/


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

are these custom trails built for cycling?? or are they trails that have been cut by cyclists, because they have been ridden on for years and years.

I'm guessing they weren't there in the past, so cycling as whole as ruined/erroded the landscape not just E Bikes


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> are these custom trails built for cycling?? or are they trails that have been cut by cyclists, because they have been ridden on for years and years.
> 
> I'm guessing they weren't there in the past, so cycling as whole as ruined/erroded the landscape not just E Bikes



Proper cycle trails, but they are 'old ones' and maintained by volunteers, but due to what e-MTB's can do, their tracks were cutting up land beside the trails - I saw if first hand where the riders were going. We were actually out-numbered by the electric lot. How the hell you can ride round a forest in 13c temperatures in full waterproofs - we were down to t-shirsts or jackets unzipped.

As has been said - there seems to be a breed of idiots on e-MTB's that will go where they like, because they can. Some bits of the trail would still have been ride-able if this lot stuck to it.

Llandelgla holds up well as it's essentially private, and funded by parking fees and well maintained. Gisburn is Forestry Commission and isn't maintained that well, and is popular due to location. It needs more maintenance as it's now an e-bike playground.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Proper cycle trails, but they are 'old ones' and maintained by volunteers, but due to what e-MTB's can do, their tracks were cutting up land beside the trails - I saw if first hand where the riders were going. We were actually out-numbered by the electric lot. How the hell you can ride round a forest in 13c temperatures in full waterproofs - we were down to t-shirsts or jackets unzipped.
> 
> As has been said - there seems to be a breed of idiots on e-MTB's that will go where they like, because they can. Some bits of the trail would still have been ride-able if this lot stuck to it.
> 
> Llandelgla holds up well as it's essentially private, and funded by parking fees and well maintained. Gisburn is Forestry Commission and isn't maintained that well, and is popular due to location. It needs more maintenance as it's now an e-bike playground.


so the Erosion you speak of, was originally done due to "Normal" bikes....but has now been exasperated by "E - Bikes".........but is still erosion non the less


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> so the Erosion you speak of, was originally done due to "Normal" bikes....but has now been exasperated by "E - Bikes".........but is still erosion non the less



Made significantly worse be e-bikers not sticking to the trail.


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> so the Erosion you speak of, was originally done due to "Normal" bikes....but has now been exasperated by "E - Bikes".........but is still erosion non the less


Think of it as overuse of a footpath, by walkers, making parts less pleasant to use so people go wide of the actual footpath.
You have a group of 50 walking it as opposed to a group of five.


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## I like Skol (6 Jan 2022)

These trails were never designed or intended for motorbike use, but that is essentially what is now happening.

A similar thing happened with off-road 4x4s. During the 50-80s off roading was a niche enthusiasts pastime that took place on legal, often ancient unsurfaced highways or at infrequent events on private land hosted by interested landowners and organised by specialised clubs. The activity was done mostly by people who worked in the countryside or who had connections to the land (hence access to 4x4 vehicles) and because of this connection they understood the responsibilities and behaved sensibly. 4x4 use went largely unnoticed and everyone was happy.

Then at the end of the 80s something profound happened. Car manufacturers started making and selling 4x4s as lifestyle commodities rather than the working utility vehicles they had been up to this point. They sold like hot cakes!
Initially nothing changed, because nobody wanted to trash their expensive car and ruin the financial residuals by battering the cars over rough, rocky ground or squeezing down scratchy, overgrown old roads. A decade later a glut of older 4x4s hit the market and after suffering painful depreciation due to the sheer numbers now for sale, cost of maintenance and obsolescence due to newer models these were now affordable as toys for the ordinary man in the street.

This is where it all started to go wrong. Suddenly hoards of 4x4s were heading into the countryside and convoys of vehicles were chewing up the fragile lanes due to unprecedented volumes of traffic on roads that were only ever expected to carry a handful of ancient 'vehicles' a day. People had their 'rights' though and they used the lanes regardless of the weather or road conditions, and to make matters worse they often deviated from the track to 'play' on interesting features on surrounding private land. In conjunction with this and maybe more closely related to the MTB trail centre situation, was the explosion in the 'pay & play' 4x4 events. Unlike early club events where an enthusiast club might hire a bit of interesting land from a private land owner once or twice a year to host a competition, enterprising individuals began running off-road events for profit and would hire sites almost monthly or even more frequently in some cases, and squeeze hundreds of 4x4s onto the site to do as they pleased. This obviously wrecked the land, in a way that will take decades to recover in some cases, but also drew anger from locals due to speeding 4x4s tearing through the surrounding villages dropping mud everywhere. So now we have mass inappropriate use of countryside rights-of-way with illegal use of surrounding land. We also have private sites that have closed down both due to the permanent land damage and also due to the problems they caused in the surrounding community. It's no surprise that the rise of the anti-4x4 movements have been so successful, leading to closure of R-o-Ws and private sites.

Does any of the above sound remotely familiar? Irresponsible use of readily available machinery in the countryside.......

'Pay & Play' events are now much less common because the sites have been shut down by the councils or the land owners realised that the use was too extreme, unsustainable and damaging. Lets just hope the same doesn't happen to mtb trail centres (or maybe it should?)


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

I like Skol said:


> These trails were never designed or intended for motorbike use, but that is essentially what is now happening.
> 
> A similar thing happened with off-road 4x4s. During the 50-80s off roading was a niche enthusiasts pastime that took place on legal, often ancient unsurfaced highways or at infrequent events on private land hosted by interested landowners and organised by specialised clubs. The activity was done mostly by people who worked in the countryside or who had connections to the land (hence access to 4x4 vehicles) and because of this connection they understood the responsibilities and behaved sensibly. 4x4 use went largely unnoticed and everyone was happy.
> 
> ...


On that last part, a site, pay to enter and maintained, near me closed due to the damage caused. They couldn't repair the damage done, and landowners who let them onto their land were left with similar damage. Once water hits, it'll take the easiest way downhill, and soon eats into the ground.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Made significantly worse be e-bikers not sticking to the trail.


But is it only E bikers???…….could it not be normal bikes too???


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> But is it only E bikers???…….could it not be normal bikes too???



Most of the damage is coming from e-bikes - we saw them doing it. They were the ones taking off into 'off piste' stuff - not possible for a mere leg powered MTB to get up some of the stuff.


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## Milkfloat (6 Jan 2022)

I am sure that in the late 80s if a forum for walkers existed they would be moaning about these new fangled MTBs churning up the paths. Whilst I am sure e-MTBs are causing more damage per bike than an MTB it is a bit rich of MTB riders to be so vocal about the new tribe in a such derogative manner. I don't have the answer to how to solve erosion on un/low maintained trails except banning all types of user or creating even more trails to lighten the load on individual trails, but if something can be done it will need the cooperation of all trail users.


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## I like Skol (6 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> in a such derogative manner.


???


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## dan_bo (6 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> I am sure that in the late 80s if a forum for walkers existed they would be moaning about these new fangled MTBs churning up the paths. Whilst I am sure e-MTBs are causing more damage per bike than an MTB it is a bit rich of MTB riders to be so vocal about the new tribe in a such derogative manner. I don't have the answer to how to solve erosion on un/low maintained trails except banning all types of user or creating even more trails to lighten the load on individual trails, but if something can be done it will need the cooperation of all trail users.


Werd.


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## dan_bo (6 Jan 2022)

I like Skol said:


> ???


Let's have it wight the rhetoric has been leveraged shall we say. That's not to say I disagree.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

As far as i can see walkers started the erosion, mtb’ers made it worse and now E mtbs are finishing it off……but only one group is being pilleged for the damage.

Nothing new there


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## dan_bo (6 Jan 2022)

Pilledged? eh?

TBF though, EMTBs aren't too dissimilar to a 50cc MX bike.


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## Tenkaykev (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> But is it only E bikers???…….could it not be normal bikes too???


Are you really unable to understand what’s being discussed? Using an ebike provides enough power to venture onto places where mere mortals on human powered bikes couldn’t go. This results in destroying the landscape, much like the 4 by 4 destroying the grove roads and bridleways as mentioned in another post.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Here come the anti emtb massive………time to go.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Are you really unable to understand what’s being discussed? Using an ebike provides enough power to venture onto places where mere mortals on human powered bikes couldn’t go. This results in the thick and lazy destroying the landscape, much like the 4 by 4 numpties destroying the grove roads and bridleways as mentioned in another post.


So now they are thick and lazy too…….

it would seem that name calling on this forum is rife yet again.


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## Tenkaykev (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> So now they are thick and lazy too…….
> 
> it would seem that name calling on this forum is rife yet again.


Not name calling, just pointing out that if you are aware of the environmental damage and choose to do it anyway then yes, you are both intellectually challenged and unable to destroy the landscape without mechanical assistance.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Here come the anti emtb massive………time to go.



You really don't like it. I only reported what I saw.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> You really don't like it. I only reported what I saw.


Like i said….its seems ok for MTBers to damage the landscapes and carve out trails, whether volunteers or not, but no one else is allowed. Just seems double standards at play for me here.

But we can agree to disagree and move on.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Like i said….its seems ok for MTBers to damage the landscapes and carve out trails, whether volunteers or not, but no one else is allowed. Just seems double standards at play for me here.
> 
> But we can agree to disagree and move on.



I was reporting what I saw. Maybe these guys just didn't care but not sticking to the trail and tearing up other areas is not on. Applies to any MTBer, but the powered lot were going where us fairly fit leg only lot couldn't.


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> So now they are thick and lazy too…….
> 
> it would seem that name calling on this forum is rife yet again.


I've likened it to walking, where over use has seen paths in some areas "sterilized" and ruining the area by using large stone slabs for the path. Getting folk to stick to them is high on impossible. 

This leads to landowners wanting to divert ROW/Long Distance Footpaths off their land. The same will happen with e-assist mountainbikes. Quite possibly all bikes. We sort the problem, before it becomes a problem that there is no way back from.

Question: If you can't physically turn the pedals under your own power on an uphill section, no motor to assist. What do you do, get off and push the bike up or go wide of where you should be going to get to the top of section?


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Not name calling, just pointing out that if you are aware of the environmental damage and choose to do it anyway then yes, you are both intellectually challenged and unable to destroy the landscape without mechanical assistance.


Hmmmmmmmm - are normal MTBs not mechanical then


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## dan_bo (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I was reporting what I saw. Maybe these guys just didn't care but not sticking to the trail and tearing up other areas is not on. Applies to any MTBer, but the powered lot were going where us fairly fit leg only lot couldn't.


For the 73rd time


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## Tenkaykev (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Like i said….its seems ok for MTBers to damage the landscapes and carve out trails, whether volunteers or not, but no one else is allowed. Just seems double standards at play for me here.
> 
> But we can agree to disagree and move on.


Jowwy,
Please don’t get me wrong, I’m the first to go off route when the path gets muddy as hell. It’s the use of artificial assistance to forge trails that no runner / walker / mtb enthusiast would tackle.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Question: If you can't physically turn the pedals under your own power on an uphill section, no motor to assist. What do you do, get off and push the bike up or go wide of where you should be going to get to the top of section?



1. I am not an MTBer

2. i am not a landscape erosion artist of any kind

3. some one already started the erosion, but ones not happy with another group adding to it, just cause they cant themselves, cause they are fit legged people who cant get there. But if they could get there, im damn sure they would……..cause those trails wasnt always there and the fit legged mob, thought it was OK to cut a trail there in the first place.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Jowwy,
> Please don’t get me wrong, I’m the first to go off route when the path gets muddy as hell. It’s the use of artificial assistance to forge trails that no runner / walker / mtb enthusiast would tackle.


An MTB is artificial assistance…….to walkers and runners.


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## Tenkaykev (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> An MTB is artificial assistance…….to walkers and runners.


Not artificial at all they are all powered by your own effort.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

There is an arrogance among many eMTBers that they will damn well go where they want. Jowwy you don't MTB so you haven't a clue what goes on.

Add in idiots on leccy MX bikes too. 

The problem with eMTBs is it opens up areas to people that don't normally ride a bike and respect the countryside. As has been said before, more MX riders are using them as you can't ride MX bikes in many places.

The guy charging around in big wellies certainly wasn't a regular cyclist. Most of us abide by sticking to trails that are made for us, not using footpaths etc because we've been cycling years. EMTBs, whilst great for those suffering disability, age etc, its also enabling perfectly able bodied people to charge around these trail centres without any respect for others. Its bloody hard climbing in the forest, but when some tool whizzes past you at 15 mph with no warning, it gets tiresome.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Not artificial at all they are all powered by your own effort. The


They still have mechanical assistance……..theres a reason you dont see single speed mtbs on the mountains, cause they couldnt get there. so artificial assistance was added by the name of gears, more gears and bigger easier gears, to get up the climbs ( therefore destroying eroding the landscape ) in areas they couldnt get to before….

so no better than the Emtber.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Lets dial down the rhetoric and name calling, it doesnt help anyone and just cause more upset and annoyance……


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## Tenkaykev (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> They still have mechanical assistance……..theres a reason you dont see single speed mtbs on the mountains, cause they couldnt get there. so artificial assistance was added by the name of gears, more gears and bigger easier gears, to get up the climbs ( therefore destroying eroding the landscape ) in areas they couldnt get to before….
> 
> so no better than the Emtber.


OK, I understand the mechanical assistance provided by gearing. That’s been understood for centuries. To deliberately misunderstand the assistance provided by external stored energy to provide power is just trolling.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> They still have mechanical assistance……..theres a reason you dont see single speed mtbs on the mountains


You do - folk do ride them.


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> 2. i am not a landscape erosion artist of any kind



You do ride bikes on roads and bridleways - they have caused erosion. I stick to bridleways, permitted rights of way and specific cycle trails when riding (road and MTB) - most of us aren't doing cheaky footpath riding, because it hisses everyone off.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> You do ride bikes on roads and bridleways - they have caused erosion. I stick to bridleways, permitted rights of way and specific cycle trails when riding (road and MTB) - most of us aren't doing cheaky footpath riding, because it hisses everyone off.


Roads and bridleways that were built for bikes long before i was born. I didnt go there and decide to cut the trail myself, in an area were there wasnt one before…….like you have already admitted to doing earlier in thread with your group of volunteers and maintainers.

im pretty sure the gisburn mountain trails didnt just appear out of thin air…….


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## Tenkaykev (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> But most folk have gears, so they can ride parts of the trails they couldnt ride before……again double standards at play.


Not at all, the gearing only provides mechanical advantage to the input from the human rider, electrical assistance is great for someone such as I who are in their 70’s, but a bit of a cop out for younger people who profess to be fit, but can’t hack the real challenges.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Not at all, the gearing only provides mechanical advantage to the input from the human rider, electrical assistance is great for someone such as I who are in their 70’s, but a bit of a cop out for younger people who profess to be fit, but can’t hack the real challenges.


So electric bikes have zero human input???


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> 1. I am not an MTBer
> 
> 2. i am not a landscape erosion artist of any kind
> 
> 3. some one already started the erosion, but ones not happy with another group adding to it, just cause they cant themselves, cause they are fit legged people who cant get there. But if they could get there, im damn sure they would……..cause those trails wasnt always there and the fit legged mob, thought it was OK to cut a trail there in the first place.


Is it the fact that the bikes in use were e-assist, not ordinary mountain bikes that got you riled.

I never said you were.

Just because a facility has been put in place, doesn't mean that it's open for abuse by anyone. The limiting factor for a rider assisted only bike will be the amount of power the legs can produce. Reach that limit, going uphill off-road, and you'll be carrying the bike not the other way round. Some of those trails would have been passable only on foot at one stage. But as mentioned by others, off-road motorbikes whose riders felt they could go where they pleased, would have soon opened some of those up. A branch here, a tree there, and from there you're on a slippery slope to losing access entirely.

For a taste of what may happen, read the two reviews on this route.
https://www.sportireland.ie/outdoors/walking/trails/east-clare-way

The off-road sections mentioned, went on-road due to misuse by cyclists. The Lough Derg Cycleway, mentioned on this forum, is no longer publicised. Again due to riders not willing to stick to the trail/way. Which was a pity as they took you to some very scenic places. Places you see from afar and wonder what it might look like/what's up there.
The goodwill of the landowners was lost. A minority ruined it for the majority. You can be in the minority that calls for something to be done, or the minority that ruins it for everyone. 

The choice is yours.


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> But most folk have gears, so they can ride parts of the trails they couldnt ride before……again double standards at play.


Do ebikes come with only the one gear?

I make a distinction between an e-assist bike and an ebike. The latter, in my opinion, relies more on a motor to power it than the rider. Often they are nothing more motorbikes without a petrol engine. With pedals to assist with the look of it being a bicycle. I have neither e-assist or ebike, by choice.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Is it the fact that the bikes in use were e-assist, not ordinary mountain bikes that got you riled.
> 
> I never said you were.
> 
> ...


Are you saying normal mtb’ers dont remove a branch here, a log there, to open up more trials…..or is it only the Emtb’er that does that…….cause i have seen many trails built by mtb’ers cutting into new undergrowth, adding jumps, cutting down trees etc etc over the many years i have been alive….


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Do ebikes come with only the one gear?
> 
> I make a distinction between an e-assist bike and an ebike. The latter, in my opinion, relies more on a motor to power it than the rider. Often they are nothing more motorbikes without a petrol engine. With pedals to assist with the look of it being a bicycle. I have neither e-assist or ebike, by choice.


both E assist and Ebike require rider input………if it falls within the UK guidlines of what is an E Bike..


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

There is an arrogance among many eMTBers that they will damn well go where they want. Jowwy you don't MTB so you haven't a clue what goes on.

Add in idiots on leccy MX bikes too. 

The problem with eMTBs is it opens up areas to people that don't normally ride a bike and respect the countryside. As has been said before, more MX riders are using them as you can't ride MX bikes in many places.

The guy charging around in big wellies certainly wasn't a regular cyclist. Most of us abide by sticking to trails that are made for us, not using footpaths etc because we've been cycling years. EMTBs, whilst great for those suffering disability, age etc, its also enabling perfectly able bodied people to charge around these trail centres without any respect for others. Its bloody hard climbing in the forest, but when some tool whizzes past you at 15 mph with no warning, it gets tiresome


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## KnittyNorah (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Roads and* bridleways that were built for bikes *long before i was born. I didnt go there and decide to cut the trail myself, in an area were there wasnt one before…….like you have already admitted to doing earlier in thread with your group of volunteers and maintainers.
> 
> im pretty sure the gisburn mountain trails didnt just appear out of thin air…….


Bridleways were _never _built for bicycles - the clue is in the name. 

Just like footpaths, and alongside them, for the division is entirely artificial, they _developed, _some over a few years, some over decades, some over centuries and some over millennia. For more on their history, you might be interested in this website.
The tracks in Gisburn Forest were, in the main, developed from and alongside forestry tracks - again the clue is in the name. There are very few _current _actual bridleways in the area although many of the small roads used to be packhorse trails, at least in part, and so did many of the tracks across the moorland which were incorrectly recorded - by accident, design or just ignorance - as 'footpaths' in the early years of the official recording of PROWS from 1949 forwards.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Bridleways were _never _built for bicycles - the clue is in the name.
> 
> Just like footpaths, and alongside them, for the division is entirely artificial, they _developed, _some over a few years, some over decades, some over centuries and some over millennia. For more on their history, you might be interested in this website.
> The tracks in Gisburn Forest were, in the main, developed from and alongside forestry tracks - again the clue is in the name. There are very few _current _actual bridleways in the area although many of the small roads used to be packhorse trails, at least in part, and so did many of the tracks across the moorland which were incorrectly recorded - by accident, design or just ignorance - as 'footpaths' in the early years of the official recording of PROWS from 1949 forwards.


Bridleways here in south wales are now part of the cycle network and have been long before i was born in 76’……


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## fossyant (6 Jan 2022)

We all are eroders of landscape. Even you on your hybrid (flat bar road bike) erode the landscape, by general use, and done forget fossil fuel burning charging batteries.

As i have said, there is a particular type on emtbs that are causing additional erosion. Thats what I saw in person, along with others.


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## I like Skol (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Are you saying normal mtb’ers dont remove a branch here, a log there, to open up more trials…..or is it only the Emtb’er that does that…….cause i have seen many trails built by mtb’ers cutting into new undergrowth, adding jumps, cutting down trees etc etc over the many years i have been alice….
> 
> but hey, lets blame one group and not the other


Completely different argument and problem. Bootleg trails (usually downhill) are not even remotely what is being discussed here. The forestry commission, volunteer run type trail centre is approved and official routing with layout and maintainance to allow access to all. These trails are being rendered near unusable by irresponsible riding and this is being massively accelerated by the huge growth of casual (and let's face it, for the majority, unnecessary) ebike use. This will endanger the existence of these trails for all, not just the ones that have caused much of the damage.



fossyant said:


> I was reporting what I saw. Maybe these guys just didn't care but not sticking to the trail and tearing up other areas is not on. Applies to any MTBer, but the powered lot were going where us fairly fit leg only lot couldn't.





jowwy said:


> But if you fit leg only lot could get there, would you???





jowwy said:


> 3. some one already started the erosion, but ones not happy with another group adding to it, just cause they cant themselves, cause they are fit legged people who cant get there. But if they could get there, im damn sure they would……..


Just to repeat the point, it is people wrecking existing, official trails that we are discussing, not cutting entire new tracks across virgin land.
Back in the day I used to watch a great program called Junior Kickstart. Motorbike riders had to ride a course over obstacles without leaving the course or putting a foot down.
I take part in 4x4 trialling, again the aim is to drive a technical course without stopping, leaving the course or hitting the canes/gates.
Both good training and ethos for riding at MTB trail centres. Use your skill and determination to remain on the defined course, and I think this is the way that responsible riders try to ride at centres and in the countryside.
Just ragging around on your pedal motorbike as fast as you can and to hell with sticking to the trail or the damage you are doing is simply bad form whichever way you look at it!


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## Hacienda71 (6 Jan 2022)

Ffs, this isn't an anti ebike thread. The issue at Gisburn is that the MTB trails have been built specifically for human powered MTB's and approved by the Forestry Commission that own the land and hence their support, not for bikes with an added assistance of an extra 500 watts on top of the riders own strength that are being used to tear up untouched grass and peat areas, which you can't with 200 to 300 watts. When you erode peat which has taken 1000's of years to form with no thought of the consequences we have every right to call it out. I do the same with the trail riders tearing up the countryside in the Peak District.
There are trails specifically designed for EMTB's that don't create the problems we saw, or they could just respect where they are riding as Fossy has already pointed out.


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

I've seen too many footpaths closed due to the actions of a minority, be they on two feet or two wheels. Along with repairing the damage done by both.


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## dan_bo (6 Jan 2022)

Hacienda71 said:


> Ffs, this isn't an anti ebike thread. The issue at Gisburn is that the MTB trails have been built specifically for human powered MTB's and approved by the Forestry Commission that own the land and hence their support, not for bikes with an added assistance of an extra 500 watts on top of the riders own strength that are being used to tear up untouched grass and peat areas, which you can't with 200 to 300 watts. When you erode peat which has taken 1000's of years to form with no thought of the consequences we have every right to call it out. I do the same with the trail riders tearing up the countryside in the Peak District.
> There are trails specifically designed for EMTB's that don't create the problems we saw, or they could just respect where they are riding as Fossy has already pointed out.


Is that 300 Watts at the crank or the back axle?


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## Hacienda71 (6 Jan 2022)

dan_bo said:


> Is that 300 Watts at the crank or the back axle?


Pedal mate


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Bridleways here in south wales are now part of the cycle network and have been long before i was born in 76’……


And there's a 40/60 possibility that the bridleways may soon be closed to bicycles. Downgrading of bridleway to footpath. 
The actions of the few may well undo the work done.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> And there's a 40/60 possibility that the bridleways may soon be closed to bicycles. Downgrading of bridleway to footpath.
> The actions of the few may well undo the work done.


As said, its part of the cycle network here……it wont be downgraded to footpath


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

Hacienda71 said:


> Ffs, this isn't an anti ebike thread. The issue at Gisburn is that the MTB trails have been built specifically for human powered MTB's and approved by the Forestry Commission that own the land and hence their support, not for bikes with an added assistance of an extra 500 watts on top of the riders own strength that are being used to tear up untouched grass and peat areas, which you can't with 200 to 300 watts. When you erode peat which has taken 1000's of years to form with no thought of the consequences we have every right to call it out. I do the same with the trail riders tearing up the countryside in the Peak District.
> There are trails specifically designed for EMTB's that don't create the problems we saw, or they could just respect where they are riding as Fossy has already pointed out.


500watts????


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> As said, its part of the cycle network here……it wont be downgraded to footpath


Currently going through the Welsh Parliament.


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## I like Skol (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> As said, its part of the cycle network here……it wont be downgraded to footpath


Is that why they don't downgrade some roads to restricted byways or bridleways when they don't like 4x4s using them? Happens all the time and can happen to bridleways and footpaths in the the same way with rights downgraded or extinguished completely.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Currently going through the Welsh Parliament.


Welsh parliment have no juristriction over the bridleways in south wales. They are privatley owned by the canal and river trust……….


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Welsh parliment have no juristriction over the bridleways in south wales. They are privatley owned by the canal and river trust……….


Which is based in England and has a ban on all motorised vehicles on it's properties.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Which is based in England and has a ban on all motorised vehicles on it's properties.


An ebike isnt a motorised vehicle and in wales, due to its rural nature, motor vehicles are allwoed on the canal network…..i know, cause i worked for the canal and river trust here in wales, and we gave out permits for cyclists to use the network, both pedal bikes and E assist bikes.


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## KnittyNorah (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Bridleways here in south wales are now part of the cycle network and have been long before i was born in 76’……


There was no right in law to ride a bike on a bridleway until the the Countryside Act 1968 was passed into law. 
Section 30 states “Any member of the public shall have, as a right of way, the right to ride a bicycle, not being a mechanically propelled vehicle, on any bridleway, but *in exercising that right cyclists shall give way to pedestrians and persons on horseback*.” 
*My bold.*
The above law applies equally in both England and Wales; bridleways are only 'a part of the cycle network' inasmuch as it is legal to ride a bike on one. The other legal users have absolute priority and there is no requirement whatsoever to make a bridleway 'suitable for bicycles'. South Wales is no different to any other part of Wales in respect of the Countryside Act 1968.

Of course people did ride bikes on bridleways before that; in many places it was common, in others it had to be done with discretion but as it was never many people and generally very low-impact, it was broadly considered acceptable.


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## KnittyNorah (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Welsh parliment have no juristriction over the bridleways in south wales. They are privatley owned by the canal and river trust……….


I think you are mixing up towpaths and bridleways. _Very few_ towpaths have bridleway status, _anywhere_ in England and Wales. Bridleways are - like public footpaths, public rights of way, part of the public highways system of this land. Towpaths, except in very rare instances, are not.


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> There was no right in law to ride a bike on a bridleway until the the Countryside Act 1968 was passed into law.
> Section 30 states “Any member of the public shall have, as a right of way, the right to ride a bicycle, not being a mechanically propelled vehicle, on any bridleway, but *in exercising that right cyclists shall give way to pedestrians and persons on horseback*.”
> *My bold.*
> The above law applies equally in both England and Wales; bridleways are only 'a part of the cycle network' inasmuch as it is legal to ride a bike on one. The other legal users have absolute priority and there is no requirement whatsoever to make a bridleway 'suitable for bicycles'. South Wales is no different to any other part of Wales in respect of the Countryside Act 1968.
> ...


Which was before i was born in 76’ as i stated……..


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I think you are mixing up towpaths and bridleways. _Very few_ towpaths have bridleway status, _anywhere_ in England and Wales. Bridleways are - like public footpaths, public rights of way, part of the public highways system of this land. Towpaths, except in very rare instances, are not.


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## KnittyNorah (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> View attachment 625283


I would dispute - on the clear visual evidence of both OS and definitive maps - that 'many' canal towpaths have bridleway _status_. I have already stated that a few do.

The fact that '*many' *towpaths are, or could easily be made to be, perfectly adequate and pleasant for riding a horse is hardly news, given that most of them were constructed specifically with horses in mind. The clue - as with so many things! - is in the name. _Most_ towpaths in England and Wales, though, do _not_ have bridleway status, even though I, personally, consider that many should.


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> View attachment 625283


Some but not all.

And the Canal and River Trust have never issued permits to use a bicycle on a towpath.


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## KnittyNorah (6 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> Which was before i was born in 76’ as i stated……..


You said 'long before'. Seven or eight years is not 'long before' in the context of the passing of laws and people's lifetimes. 
In this context I would consider 'long before' to be seven_ty_ or eighty years. The turn of the 19th/20th Cs perhaps ...


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## jowwy (6 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> Some but not all.
> 
> And the Canal and River Trust have never issued permits to use a bicycle on a towpath.


the canal and river trust may not have, but the previous iteration British Waterways did and as a staff member on the Mon and Brex canal in south wales, we did issue cycle permits on oir networks in swansea and in bridgewater and somerset networks.


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## classic33 (6 Jan 2022)

From the Canal and River Trust.
Permissive at best, and a long way from being a bridleway.

There's at least one bridleway on the hillside near me, the nearest canal is in the valley five miles away. No canal on the hill.


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## KnittyNorah (6 Jan 2022)

I prefer to know what the law says, not what Joe Google might think.


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## classic33 (7 Jan 2022)

@fossyant, anything like this in use up here?


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

classic33 said:


> @fossyant, anything like this in use up here?
> View attachment 625286



There is very similar advice given to UK riders, through all sorts of avenues.Don't forget, I'm not 'really' a MTB'er, I cut my cloth on the road, but have MTB'ed for over 30 years, along with the other guys I ride regularly with. I also ride with a local MTB group, who again follow the 'rules', one or two are eMTB'ers but one guy uses his to keep up with us as he's quite 'old'.

*[Some think..] *this thread is anti ebikers, and turned it into anti off road cycling. It's not, it's about a growing group of folk that aren't real cyclists that are jumping on these machines and ripping about the place because they can. They don't have the same regard for the surroundings. ... Many eMTB riders are cyclists but there is a large growing group that don't give a stuff and are just in it for the fun, which is fine, provided they stick to the trails, and not tear them up. This is what we saw and regularly see these days. *[...]

[...]* In this thread, most people have accepted that there is an issue, most of us have seen it first hand. We're starting to see more and more 'full' electric MX bikes as well -same bunch of folk.

It's a problem. Places like Penmachno and Gwydir don't even have parking charges, so they rely upon volunteers and people popping a few quid in the honesty box to maintain the trails, without them there would be no trails (oh and these trails have been there probably 30 years...).


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## dan_bo (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> There is very similar advice given to UK riders, through all sorts of avenues.Don't forget, I'm not 'really' a MTB'er, I cut my cloth on the road, but have MTB'ed for over 30 years, along with the other guys I ride regularly with. I also ride with a local MTB group, who again follow the 'rules', one or two are eMTB'ers but one guy uses his to keep up with us as he's quite 'old'.
> 
> ..... this thread is anti ebikers, and turned it into anti off road cycling. It's not, it's about a growing group of folk that aren't real cyclists that are jumping on these machines and ripping about the place because they can. They don't have the same regard for the surroundings. ..... Many eMTB riders are cyclists but there is a large growing group that don't give a stuff and are just in it for the fun, which is fine, provided they stick to the trails, and not tear them up. This is what we saw and regularly see these days. ...
> 
> ...


Articulate for this time of day.


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> As said, its part of the cycle network here……it wont be downgraded to footpath



Bridleways and canal paths are part of the cycleways up here too in Englandshire (Peaks) and form a large part of my off road routes into the Peaks - using paths which permit cycles.


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

I remember having to print out and 'sign' a 'permit' to cycle on the canals - it was free, and just needed you to pop on the Canal and Riverside Trust's website (or what they were called back then - British Waterways ?), and log your details. you were expected to carry this. Didn't serve much of a purpose, but I suppose it allowed the organisation to monitor demand. Think is, it wasn't well known, and only those of us who were aware of the rules did it. You had to do it annually from recollection. Fortunately, this has been dropped now.

MTB'ers are well aware of the issue with using footpaths, and in general avoid it, some times it's not possible, and that's where you either push the bike, or take it very steady and aren't doing it at Peak times, but in general it's to be avoided as it just hisses everyone off.


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

I do keep, and keep failing, to keep the thread on topic about a 'growing' group of 'riders' using said machines to rip it up. It is a problem and it's not all e-bikers, but there is a big group of them. As someone has said, they suspect it's ex. MX riders. Most of them just aren't 'interested' in the cycling/fitness side.

Some 'obvious' examples.

Guy gets his very expensive top of the range eMTB out (probably over £8k - Santa Cruz. He's dressed in waterproof pants, a jacket and big wellies. Other lad, full waterproof 'wet gear' - it was 13c and not raining. Even one of the group said 'are you not hot'. He said I'm not even trying ! Llandegla a couple of years back, dad dressed in cycling kit on an e-MTB. Two older teens or young 20s, his sons, both on electric MX bikes (which are banned) - and that's at a trail centre.

Most e-MTBers are in appropriate clothing.

I'll keep trying to keep the thread on track. Please stop bringing up some peoples views about lazy etc, which I know people have strong views. I know a fair number of e-MTBers who use them to enable them to get out, one has even sold his as it was too quick and he got fed up of waiting for everyone. Others have needed them to enable them to enjoy the rides. It's a very different bunch to those turning up at trail centres, and then just ripping it up. These folk are the problem, as we will lose these 'facilities' as they aren't well funded - there in lies the issue.

There are places far better suited for these folk. Llandegla can cope with it as it's pretty commercialised, as is Antur Stiniog, Bike Park Wales etc etc. Some are uplift only, but BPW is ideal for e-bikes as you don't need the uplift.

Places that are Forestry Commission owned can't support this type of 'riding' - there is either no charge or a small charge to park there, usually no facilities (you are lucky if there is a toilet). The trails are old, and basically just patched up when there is storm damage. When a trial get's churned up, you should either still stick to it, or hike the bike past the obstruction. Not take to an off piste route, which is what we saw in abundance. On a particularly boggy section, these 'guys' just ripped it along side the trail, it wasn't a route a standard bike could reasonably take (a fair few of us pushed). there in lies the problem - just because 'you can' doesn't mean you should.

What ruins it is when people are avoiding what's called 'features'. You usually get two lines, one to go over the feature, be it a jump or a drop, then another line which is for those that don't want to risk it - e.g, haven't ridden it before. There was one such section at the top of a climb where there was a drop off, but due to the amount of off piste avoidance of the feature, I got to the top and just thought, where the bloody hell am I supposed to go. What should have been 3-4 foot wide, was over 20 feet - this is erosion.

Same issues apply when walking, stick to the routes. 

so to re-iterate, there is a growing 'group/type' who have access to some very powerful machines that are not respecting the countryside. They aren't 'cyclists' as such, that is obvious. This is what the thread is about.


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## jowwy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I do keep, and keep failing, to keep the thread on topic about a 'growing' group of 'riders' using said machines to rip it up. It is a problem and it's not all e-bikers, but there is a big group of them. As someone has said, they suspect it's ex. MX riders. Most of them just aren't 'interested' in the cycling/fitness side.
> 
> Some 'obvious' examples.
> 
> ...


ok i will try my best to put my views into the highlighted sections above

1. A cyclist whether riding a road, mtb or ebike has the right to wear whatever he wants when out cycling, you have no right to judge them based on what they are wearing even if they do say they are " not tryin that hard" , we all know Ebikes have the ability for people to ride in turbo made to make things easier and its their right to use that mode of they desire.

2. I will stop bringing up or highlighting people's views on Ebikers...when they stop posting them in the first place

3. Its not up to you to decide were people can and cant ride.

4. You also have no right to decide if someone is a cyclist or not based on what they wear or ride.......


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> 3. Its not up to you to decide were people can and cant ride.
> 
> 4. You also have no right to decide if someone is a cyclist or not based on what they wear or ride.......



3. This follows on from what's happening. There are many Advocacy groups in MTB. There is a "where and when" about riding bikes. We shouldn't be ripping the place up. Remember some of us have been riding on and off road all our lives. - I don't go riding across some farmer's field just because I can, or up a footpath just because. None of us should.

E.g. There is a voluntary ban on bikes between May and October between 8am and 5pm on Snowdon. 99% of cyclists stick to this for obvious reasons.

4. The dress code - no but it was fairly obvious these folk didn't give a sh1t - you could dress like Team Sky for all I care, or cycle in jeans - you are nit picking and avoiding the issue - I was giving examples of what I saw - you've never ventured out into the wilds or a trail centre.

We've got folk dumping punctured tubes, littering, ripping up peak bogs etc etc. anyone who is serious takes care of the countryside.

There is a growing group of people who are using certain bikes that are causing damage, a minority. It's obvious they aren't 'serious' about our hobby/sport - I've got every right to complain about it, and I've reported exactly what I've seen - you can tell them a mile off and lo and behold, that's exactly how they ride, with little or no respect. You've not seen this as you don't MTB.

The MTB group I ride with would pull anyone up who littered, or god forbid ripped it up across a peat moor. We even make sure we avoid footpaths - there are usually a fair old group of riders, somewhat intimidating so care it taken. 

We once 'had' to use a 100 yard section of footpath to link a bridleway to a road, there wasn't any other option, just the way it was. We knew this, so rode at walking pace. The 'footpath' was about 20 foot wide, and ran by the side of a river, and linked directly into a car park - it was also smooth. As we got onto said road, a 'elderly female' walker came running over, in the middle of the road and was exceptionally abusive. There was no-one on the path at the time. This is why we should take care where we ride


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> that paragraph isn't factually incorrect either as Fossy has called ebikers tools and idiots within this thread



That is incorrect as I've said certain groups on certain bikes are tools and idiots, stop bending what's been said. I haven't at any point said e-bikers, all of them are idiot and tools - so get that fact straight. ....

As said there is a growing bunch of folk out there to just rip it up without respect to a facility that has limited maintenance, and can be in environmentally sensitive areas, so sticking to the trail is important, just like sticking to a footpath is too.


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> ebikers pissing in the woods



Come on, everyone 'widdles' in the woods.  There are no toilets. Just make sure you have a poop before you leave home, otherwise it's hoping you've got baby wipes in the car somewhere ! 

And you can't charge your bike, never mind your Garmin as there is no leccy !


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## jowwy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> Come on, everyone 'widdles' in the woods.  There are no toilets. Just make sure you have a poop before you leave home, otherwise it's hoping you've got baby wipes in the car somewhere !
> 
> *And you can't charge your bike, never mind your Garmin as there is no leccy !*


i did say at trail centres


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> i did say at trail centres



There isn't any leccy ! Only for the cafe if lucky. You'd be pushed to be allowed to charge your phone (bit pointless also as there is rarely any signal).


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## jowwy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> There isn't any leccy ! Only for the cafe if lucky. You'd be pushed to be allowed to charge your phone (bit pointless also as there is rarely any signal).


isnt there charging points at BPW and forest of dean trail centres?? i think theres also charging points down here at cwmcarn forest drive for leccy bikes......just need to bring your charger along, but the car park is right by the cafe area, so that would be ok.


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## Pale Rider (7 Jan 2022)

Have any of you MTBers ridden a legal eMTB?

They are no balls of fire, and are handicapped in climbing by extra weight,

The notion they could cause significant extra damage in comparison to an MTB is hard to take.

All the bikes use the same tyres, and once traction is lost, well, a spinning back wheel is a spinning back wheel.


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

jowwy said:


> isnt there charging points at BPW and forest of dean trail centres?? i think theres also charging points down here at cwmcarn forest drive for leccy bikes......just need to bring your charger along, but the car park is right by the cafe area, so that would be ok.



I didn't know, I could charge my phone when there is no signal. 

Ah but BPW is probably a great place for e-MTB's as it saves you a fortune in uplift costs - you can whiz up and be on the downs again. These are very different from the likes of Gisburn etc, which have no facilities and little maintenance. BPW is like a playground -


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## jowwy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I didn't know, I could charge my phone when there is no signal.
> 
> Ah but BPW is probably a great place for e-MTB's as it saves you a fortune in uplift costs - you can whiz up and be on the downs again. These are very different from the likes of Gisburn etc, which have no facilities and little maintenance. *BPW is like a playground* -


yeh i got two mates that go there regular

one an ex semi pro Road racer and one an Ex downhill veteran mtb champion.....they both now ride ebikes only


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

Pale Rider said:


> Have any of you MTBers ridden a legal eMTB?
> 
> They are no balls of fire, and are handicapped in climbing by extra weight,
> 
> ...



I did not say it was the bike - I was highlighting that there is a growing group of people that are ripping it up, because they can. Was not talking about sensible MTB or E-MTB use. They are like a ball of fire uphill !!!

Normally I'd never see an e-MTBer again on a trail. This 'bunch' were just ripping it up - we kept catching them. Then they'd take an off piste line to get up/past a difficult section. 

It was quite noticeable who these people were.


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## CXRAndy (7 Jan 2022)

It will always be a problem when anyone goes on Virgin ground whether horse, walkers, cyclists. 

It really matters not that you have an ebike or stand MTB. Riding on fresh ground will temporarily damage it, unless repeatedly used. 

For reference I can dump over a 1000W through my non powered MTB when hitting a climb.


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## Pale Rider (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> I did not say it was the bike - I was highlighting that there is a growing group of people that are ripping it up, because they can. Was not talking about sensible MTB or E-MTB use. They are like a ball of fire uphill !!!
> 
> Normally I'd never see an e-MTBer again on a trail. This 'bunch' were just ripping it up - we kept catching them. Then they'd take an off piste line to get up/past a difficult section.
> 
> It was quite noticeable who these people were.



Maybe they weren't aware of the etiquette of not going off piste,

Assuming there were no fences or barriers, veering around a difficult bit is something anyone might do.

I can think of a handful of places on my regular cinder tracks which have small extra loops to avoid a muddy bit or somewhere prone to flooding.


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## fossyant (7 Jan 2022)

You generally don't get fences or barriers. There does seem to be a growing number - it's noticeable who they are, and I suspect they don't know the 'etiquette'. The more that do this, the less we get to use. Plenty of places have lost facilities, and the Forestry Commission regularly take any "home brew" features down.


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## jowwy (7 Jan 2022)

fossyant said:


> You generally don't get fences or barriers. There does seem to be a growing number - it's noticeable who they are, and I suspect they don't know the 'etiquette'. The more that do this, the less we get to use. Plenty of places have lost facilities, and the Forestry Commission regularly take any "home brew" features down.


i genuinely get what you saying and that you saw ebikers doing what they did.

But could it also be a fact that non ebikers are also doing it, but you just havent seen them???


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## Scoosh (7 Jan 2022)

*MOD NOTE:*
Well, that's an hour+ of my time  spent cleaning up a thread which was being derailed, counter-derailed, nit-picked all over and had descended into a rather sad thread about an important subject – that of land erosion. [pick your own group who are responsible...]

Stop it now.  Just stop it. 

Thank you.


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