# How much should I offer?



## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

There's currently quite a nice frame + fork on eBay that I'm interested in for my single speed build. I contacted the seller and he's told me that he's open to offers and that he would be happy to end the auction early but as I've never purchased something like this before, I have no idea what I should be paying for it.

How much should I offer (bearing in mind that postage is £16)?


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## fossyant (5 Jun 2013)

You could always ask what sort of price. Dont get suckered into too high a price especially if you dont know the frame material or make.


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

fossyant said:


> You could always ask what sort of price. Dont get suckered into too high a price especially if you dont know the frame material or make.


 

I've sent him a message asking him how much he's looking for. The description says it's made of steel but it also says that it's been painted over so he doesn't know the make.


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## biggs682 (5 Jun 2013)

its got nice lugwork on the head stock and £16 postage is about right if packed well


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

The seller says "I didnt really have a price in mind, I am selling for a friend who acquired it on a house clearance. Please just make a sensible offer and I am sure he will be ok with it, regards" - that doesn't help me much, anyone know how much a frame like this would go for?


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

Nice lugs but under that paint work you dont know what your getting if its steel what sort etc etc


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

to me it looks a low end bike so dont think its reynolds tubing but ya never know


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

ianjmcd said:


> to me it looks a low end bike so dont think its reynolds tubing but ya never know


 

Not too worried if it's not Reynolds tubing, it's just something that'll get me to school and back and that I'm not worried about locking up for 6 hours at a time


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

Goes and outbids jazloc :-) evil grin


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## fossyant (5 Jun 2013)

It should be Reynolds given the fork crown and head tube lugs.

Offer 50 ? Some frames attract crazy money, so dont get into that.


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

fossyant said:


> It should be Reynolds given the fork crown and head tube lugs.
> 
> Offer 50 ? Some frames attract crazy money, so dont get into that.


 


Offered £40 as I've only got £55 in my Paypal right now and he said that was too cheap and he'd be looking for more around the £50 mark. Guess I'll let the auction continue


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## HovR (5 Jun 2013)

I was thinking lower. The lugs on the headtube are nice, but other features indicate a lower quality frame (pressed dropouts rather than forged, all other lugs are nothing fancy).

The 'suicide levers' are also indicative of a lower quality frame, although that stem looks like it could be a GB stem which is fairly decent. And those cranks look like they might be cottered, not the more desirable square taper. 

As there is no indication to the make of the frame I don't think I would offer any more than £30. Frames tend to go for silly money on eBay and are much cheaper else where - I got my Reynolds 501 Peugeot PGN10 for only £30 as a complete bike just needing a clean-up and new axles!


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

The guy said that he would do £50 all in so £35 for the frame + £15 postage - should I go for it?


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## HovR (5 Jun 2013)

If you want a frame with minimum effort and have £50 to spend on the frame alone, then go for it, but I personally feel that you should be able to get a better deal on a bike locally. With that frame also factor in the possible cost of a new bottom bracket, which will most likely require a new crankset (around £40 with a Stronglight ST55 and Shimano sealed BB).

I'd be looking in local classified ads, especially with you living right next to a large city like Glasgow, there's gotta be loads of bikes on offer. Gumtree normally has some reasonable deals on second hand bikes, although they get snapped up quicker than on eBay!

Also spread the word that you're looking for a classic road bike frame. You may be lucky and find that your parents/grandparents/friends parents have an un-used bike they will give you for free or cheap!


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> I was thinking lower. The lugs on the headtube are nice, but other features indicate a lower quality frame (pressed dropouts rather than forged, all other lugs are nothing fancy).
> 
> The 'suicide levers' are also indicative of a lower quality frame, although that stem looks like it could be a GB stem which is fairly decent. And those cranks look like they might be cottered, not the more desirable square taper.
> 
> As there is no indication to the make of the frame I don't think I would offer any more than £30. Frames tend to go for silly money on eBay and are much cheaper else where - I got my Reynolds 501 Peugeot PGN10 for only £30 as a complete bike just needing a clean-up and new axles!


 

yeah looks like low range raleigh to me


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/raleigh-road-bike-for-sale/1020990854 

quick somebody lend me some cash quick 

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/fixie-road-bike/1020871320


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

a fecking scot at that price and im skint ;(


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

ianjmcd said:


> http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/raleigh-road-bike-for-sale/1020990854
> 
> quick somebody lend me some cash quick
> 
> http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/fixie-road-bike/1020871320


 

I saw that Raleigh and thought it looked nice, no horizontal dropouts though


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

why the need for horizontal dropouts ??


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## HovR (5 Jun 2013)

If the post isn't seized and it's still available this looks half decent: http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/vintage-lugged-steel-bike-frame-22-1960s/1018774476#photo-content

I'd just keep a sharp eye on the local listings, something is bound to come up! £35 for the other frame isn't too bad, but the postage just pushes it over the edge for me!


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

at least that raleigh is complete even has mudguards ideal for school run and you can still turn into a fixie as the rear sprockets will be screw on not cassette


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> If the post isn't seized and it's still available this looks half decent: http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/vintage-lugged-steel-bike-frame-22-1960s/1018774476#photo-content
> 
> I'd just keep a sharp eye on the local listings, something is bound to come up! £35 for the other frame isn't too bad, but the postage just pushes it over the edge for me!


 

22 inch vintage frame might not be best for young jazloc though geometry will be completely different


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

ianjmcd said:


> 22 inch vintage frame might not be best for young jazloc though geometry will be completely different


 

Also posted 20 days ago, probably gone by now.


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

im 5' 8" and i used to ride a 21" vintage frame but a 54 cm modern road bike


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

I might contact the guy about that Raleigh


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## ianjmcd (5 Jun 2013)

worth a try he might take 50 for it


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

ianjmcd said:


> worth a try he might take 50 for it


 

Sent him a message asking him if it's available


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## HovR (5 Jun 2013)

ianjmcd said:


> 22 inch vintage frame might not be best for young jazloc though geometry will be completely different


 

It's about the same size as the Raleigh you posted, best way of estimating from the pictures is the length of the head-tube with older style horizontal top-tube geometry.  

I find with older style geometry you can ride a larger frame than modern geometry would allow. Not sure why that is, but both my classic bikes are supposedly far too big for me by modern terms but they fit perfectly. 



jazloc said:


> Also posted 20 days ago, probably gone by now.


 

Always worth a try when it only takes one button to respond to the ad.


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## Deleted member 20519 (5 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> It's about the same size as the Raleigh you posted, best way of estimating from the pictures is the length of the head-tube with older style horizontal top-tube geometry.
> 
> I find with older style geometry you can ride a larger frame than modern geometry would allow. Not sure why that is, but both my classic bikes are supposedly far too big for me by modern terms but they fit perfectly.
> 
> ...


 

Sent him a message too, we'll see who responds first


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## biggs682 (6 Jun 2013)

the suspense is ???????????????????????///


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## Deleted member 20519 (6 Jun 2013)

No reply about the road bike but I got a reply about the 22" frame. He's still got it, it's worth a punt at £10, right?


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## HovR (6 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> No reply about the road bike but I got a reply about the 22" frame. He's still got it, it's worth a punt at £10, right


 

Go for it! I'd be snapping that up if I were nearer Glasgow!


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## Deleted member 20519 (6 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> Go for it! I'd be snapping that up if I were nearer Glasgow!


 

He said he'll be in tonight, going to head up and buy it


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## biggs682 (6 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> He said he'll be in tonight, going to head up and buy it


 if hes got any more get them as well at that price


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## Deleted member 20519 (6 Jun 2013)

biggs682 said:


> if hes got any more get them as well at that price


 

He did mention something about a job lot of steel frames that I could take and give to my friends


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## Deleted member 20519 (6 Jun 2013)

Would I be able to use my old wheels off of my Triban 3 if I got something like this? http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/SKOOSSKK/on_one_singlespeed_converter_kit_with_16t_sprocket


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## biggs682 (6 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> He did mention something about a job lot of steel frames that I could take and give to my friends


 
get them and sell them and let me have some pics


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## biggs682 (6 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Would I be able to use my old wheels off of my Triban 3 if I got something like this? http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/SKOOSSKK/on_one_singlespeed_converter_kit_with_16t_sprocket


 
yes if its a free hub (splined) for single speed but not fixed


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## Deleted member 20519 (6 Jun 2013)

Just ordered this http://www.wiggle.co.uk/gusset-1-er-single-speed-conversion-kit/


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## Deleted member 20519 (7 Jun 2013)

Right, I've got the frame! It's not in terribly good condition, it's rusted at some parts and the paint is chipped. I think it could be a really nice frame if it was sanded down and repainted. 

The seatpost is stuck in the seat tube, I'm going to get a bottle of WD40 tomorrow and let it soak and hope for the best. I can't figure out what make of bike it is, the only decal has worn away. It has Weinmann brakes, one Huret downtube shifter and Nicklin cranks. 

I hope that I can renovate this bike!


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## biggs682 (7 Jun 2013)

oh stuck seat post is not good , dont do anything till thats out


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## compo (7 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> The seatpost is stuck in the seat tube, I'm going to get a bottle of WD40 tomorrow and let it soak and hope for the best. I can't figure out what make of bike it is, the only decal has worn away. It has Weinmann brakes, one Huret downtube shifter and Nicklin cranks.
> 
> I hope that I can renovate this bike!


 
There are far better penetrating oils than WD40. You would be better with something like Plus Gas. if you can get a cup of diesel that's even better. With penetrating oils you have to be patient. They can take several days to work, and with seat posts it is always possible that they may not work at all depending just how stuck it is.

Good luck with it!


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## Teuchter (7 Jun 2013)

http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html


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## Deleted member 20519 (7 Jun 2013)

The seatpost is free! I found some oil in my cupboard, poured it over the seatpost and then twisted the post about with a pair of pliers. It finally budged and then it slid out!


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## Teuchter (7 Jun 2013)

Next job will be removing those cottered cranks!


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## Deleted member 20519 (7 Jun 2013)

Teuchter said:


> Next job will be removing those cottered cranks!


 

How would one do that?


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## Teuchter (7 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> How would one do that?


 










Someone will be along shortly with a more practical answer, I'm sure.


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## Tim Hall (7 Jun 2013)

Loosen the nut on the cotter pin until it is flush with the top of the pin.
Apply penetrating oil (Plus Gas for example. Not WD40).
Wait. Wait some more. Have a cup of tea. Cut the grass. Wait.
Support the underneath of bottom bracket on suitable lumps of wood.
Hit the end of the cotter pin/nut with hammer until it moves.
Undo nut.
Remove crank.
Repeat for the other side.

Or there's this nifty method:


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## HovR (7 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Right, I've got the frame! It's not in terribly good condition, it's rusted at some parts and the paint is chipped. I think it could be a really nice frame if it was sanded down and repainted.


 

It should repaint fine. Just remember to put lots of time in to the preparation. Use paint strippers to remove the worst of the paint, then sand it down well, including all of the little gaps that paint may still be hiding in. Don't leave it too long between stripping the frame and repainting it, otherwise rust could start to form on the bare metal. Before you paint the frame you want to ensure it is free from dirt and oils. Wiping it down with a cleaning solvent (acetone or isopropyl alcohol are good for this).

Assuming you're planning on painting at home (whether brushed or sprayed) the finish likely won't be as long lasting or durable as a professional stove enamel job (Argos cycles can do this for ~£140), so if you pick a common colour you should be able to find a direct match for touch-up jobs pretty easily (black or white are good for this).

When painting remember to apply a primer first, and sand with a higher-grit paper in between each layer (apart from the last one, obviously) to allow the next layer to adhere properly. Many thin layers of paint are better than fewer thicker layers. Having a final layer of clear-coat can give the paint a bit more protection and also make it look nice and shiny. Finally leave the frame a good week or two for the paint to cure properly if you want a more hard wearing finish.

Brush painting is less time-intensive, and is very easy to touch up. The final finish won't be as good but it may be harder wearing depending on the paint you use.

Your other options are to get it powder coated, or ride it as is. Giving it a good clean up and riding it as is may be a sensible course of action for now until you're sure you're happy with the frame. This is what I would personally do until I had the bike build up and knew I was happy with it.

On the other hand you may be able to get it powder coated cheap. Ask around if you can get your frame done at the same time as another clients piece of work. You'll have less choice of colours, but may get it done surprisingly cheaply.


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## Deleted member 20519 (7 Jun 2013)

The cranks are off! Thanks @Tim Hall for the instructions!

@HovR Thank you for the detailed painting instructions! Would you suggest building it up to make sure that it fits before I get into painting it? 

Also, what would I need? What parts am I going to need to buy to get this into a functioning bike?


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## Deleted member 20519 (7 Jun 2013)

I believe that the bike used to be red.


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## HovR (7 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> @HovR Thank you for the detailed painting instructions! Would you suggest building it up to make sure that it fits before I get into painting it?


 

Yep, I would. Seems sensible to me, that way if the frame is too small you will be able to sell it on, keeping the components for a new frame.



jazloc said:


> Also, what would I need? What parts am I going to need to buy to get this into a functioning bike?


 
The very first thing I'd sort out is the bottom bracket. The bottom bracket and chainset you have on there will work until it breaks if you can find a good source for cotter pins. Once it breaks it will be hard to find replacements, so I'd be looking at swapping it out for a modern square taper system with a sealed BB.

The first issue here is finding out what type of threading and length of bottom bracket the frame will take, as we do not know the make. The first bit is easy, finding out the width of the bottom bracket shell. Simply measure it with a ruler, ignoring any bits of bottom bracket - just the width of the shell.






The next thing you will need to is find out the threading standard. Hopefully it is ISO/British standard, as these bottom brackets tend to be the cheapest/easiest to find. The easiest way I know to check this is to try threading in a BB that you know if ISO/British threaded if you have one lying around. Don't force it though, as you don't want to ruin the threads. Ensure the threads are clean and lubricated. @RecordAceFromNew might be able to help more with working out the threading standard.

Once you know the threading standard of the bottom bracket you can look in to getting a crankset and BB. If it is in fact British/ISO standard threading, I'd recommend the Stronglight ST55 as a cheap single speed chainset. I coupled mine up with a Shimano 115mm BB on my Peugeot, although I probably could have dropped to a 113 if I'd wanted a closer chain-line.

Assuming the fork and headset are fine, you'll also need:

A quill stem, most likely for 1" steerer. Length of your choice.
Handlebars to suit. Could be flats/drops/bullhorns. Make sure the diameter of the bars is compatible with the quill stem clamp.
Bar tape
Brake levers. These will depend on the bars you choose, I like Cane-Creek SCR5 for modern styling drop bar brakes.
Seat post (pick a long one for most adjustability (400mm is nice and long)
Seat post clamp
Saddle
Chain
Brake cables
Brake pads
Brake calipers if you want to swap to modern ones, but the old ones are probably fine.

You said you already have wheels and a single-speed kit for the rear wheel, so I've left those out, and I've mentioned BB and chainset above.

I may have missed something, but I'm sure someone will add it to the list if I have. 
Pedals


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## Deleted member 20519 (7 Jun 2013)

I've just measured the BB shell, it measures 7cm. I don't think I'll keep the BB that's on the bike right now, it seems to be sticking at some points and the chainset was bent. I've got a BB lying around with English threading so I can try that one, I need to remove the old one first but I've got no idea how. 

I've cleaned and regreased the fork and refitted the ball bearings, all of that seems to be fine.




> A quill stem, most likely for 1" steerer. Length of your choice.


Do you have any recommendations on a particular stem?





> Handlebars to suit. Could be flats/drops/bullhorns. Make sure the diameter of the bars is compatible with the quill stem clamp.


 
@biggs682 gave me some drops that I plan to cut down and turn into bullhorns. 




> Bar tape


That's cheap, I quite like the BBB stuff from CRC.




> Brake levers. These will depend on the bars you choose, I like Cane-Creek SCR5 for modern styling drop bar brakes.


 

What do you think of TT levers for bullhorns? http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/BLTKTL7/tektro_tl720_tt_lever___pair




> Saddle


Charge Spoon 




> Brake calipers if you want to swap to modern ones, but the old ones are probably fine.


I'll take a look at the old ones and see what kind of condition they're in, I'll get some new pads too.




> Pedals


 
I was thinking about getting Shimano SPD pedals but it would mean I would have to buy new shoes, I'm thinking of getting SPD-SL's so I can use them with my current shoes.


Thank you for the information! It's extremely helpful


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## biggs682 (7 Jun 2013)

@jazloc this is starting to like its getting costly


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## ianjmcd (7 Jun 2013)

That is a raleigh Frame for definate id hazard a guess at a raleigh record age would be pre - 77


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## ianjmcd (7 Jun 2013)

same lugs , head tube so id lay money its that vintage being it had cottered cranks the 77 model had cotterless cranks


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## HovR (7 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> I've just measured the BB shell, it measures 7cm. I don't think I'll keep the BB that's on the bike right now, it seems to be sticking at some points and the chainset was bent. I've got a BB lying around with English threading so I can try that one, I need to remove the old one first but I've got no idea how.
> 
> 
> Do you have any recommendations on a particular stem?
> ...


 

Quill stems are a much of muchness to be honest. I'd be looking at picking up one off eBay. Almost all quill stems (that I know of) should be designed to fit a 1" steerer, but you'll have to make sure the clamp that holds on the bars is the right diameter. If you don't know the width of the bars, then try to get hold of some digital calipers - perfect for accurately measuring things!

I've never tried TT levers in home-made bull horns, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work as long as the ID (inside diameter) of the bars is correct.

I'm off to eat a curry now, more about bottom brackets when I get back if someone hasn't beaten me to it! Some photos might help in the mean time though.


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## compo (7 Jun 2013)

*Taken from elsewhere and pasted in:*

Unfortunately there are several bottom bracket shell widths and several different threads:

68 and 73mm English threaded with a left handed thread, tightens anti-clockwise, on the drive/right side.

70mm Italian threaded with right handed thread both sides.

And some more besides: http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html - scroll down the page a bit and you'll see a table with the various widths and types.

68 and 73mm English threaded are the most common, followed by 70mm Italian threaded. But, because it's an older Sun Worksop frame, made by Raleigh, it might be a 71mm BB shell with a thread peculiar to older Raleigh made frames.

If the bottom bracket shell width is closest to 70mm, check to see which way the drive side bearing cup undoes. If it undoes anti-clockwise, it's probably an Italian threaded bottom bracket and these are readily available: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=71369

If it is an old Raleigh size BB, then you'll probably have to hunt around for a NOS (New Old Stock) Raleigh bottom bracket or something like a Phil Woods bottom bracket, for which you can get Raleigh 26tpi cups: http://www.philwood.com/products/bbpages/ssbb.php. The Phil Woods bottom brackets needs cups and a special installation tool, so while it's very good quality and will probably last a lifetime, it's an expensive solution.


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## HovR (7 Jun 2013)

Compo's hit the nail on the head there I reckon. If 70mm is infact an accurate measurement then it appears to be an Italian threaded frame (some high-end French frames also used this standard).

The type of bottom bracket you have is made up of two cups. The 'fixed cup' on the drive side, and the 'adjustable cup' on the non-drive side, which will have a lock ring to hold it in place. In between these will be the spindle (in the frame, and poking out of the cup sides), which runs on ball bearings.

The 'fixed cup' is fairly easy to remove. You may need a specialist tool, but most of the time you can get away with a regular large spanner. A large adjustable may also work. If the frame is Italian threaded then the fixed cup will unscrew like any bolt, in an anti-clockwise direction (an English/ISO standard fixed side BB cup unscrews in the opposite way). Keep in mind that the cup could be held in there pretty well with corrosion, so give it a bit of welly, but try not to break anything! On one occasion I had to resort to a 6-foot extension bar in order to remove a well seized bottom bracket!

Once this is removed you will be able to remove the spindle and ball bearings.

The 'adjustable cup' is different in that it has a lock-ring that you need to remove first, before unscrewing the main cup. This lockring unscrews in the normal direction, but requires a specialist lock-ring tool. As you won't be using the BB again you can normally get away with putting an old (it could get damaged) flat head screwdriver in one of the notches and using a hammer to unscrew it. Mole grips or a pair of channel locks have also worked for me in the past to remove lock-rings.

Once the lock-ring is removed then you can unscrew the adjustable cup in the normal direction, using a regular spanner if it has spanner flats, or the same flat head screwdriver trick if it has notches for a pin spanner.


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## ColinJ (7 Jun 2013)

I know that you seem to be getting quite into doing a nice renovation job, but earlier in the thread you posted this ...


jazloc said:


> it's just something that'll get me to school and back and that I'm not worried about locking up for 6 hours at a time


... which makes me wonder whether it might be better leaving it looking a mess to put off would-be thieves?

(I had my nice-looking bike nicked from school 44 years ago!  )


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## Deleted member 20519 (8 Jun 2013)

I've been researching parts and I think I've come up with a budget/quality list.

3TT NOS quill stem - http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/ST3TQUID/3ttt_quid_quill_stem
Bar Tape - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/bbb-bht-01-race-ribbon-bar-tape/
Brake Levers - http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/BLTKTL7/tektro_tl720_tt_lever___pair
Seat post - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/system-ex-alloy-seat-post/
Chain - http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=25431
Brake Cable Set - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shimano-Deore-M-System-V-Brake-Cable-Set-Inner-Outer-Front-Rear-MRRP-14-99-/290780920688
Brake Pads - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Clarks-CP100-Road-35mm-Brake-Blocks-Pads-Weinmann-Raleigh-and-Other-Calipers-/140857494962
BB (unsure if this is the right one) - http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=34652
Chainset - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Crankset-Single-Speed-Crankset-Lightweight-Alloy-46T-Crank-/121115093967
Tyres - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/vittoria-rubino-wire-bead-clincher-tyre/

I've got a saddle, wheels + SS conversion kit. Thanks to HovR's list, I can't think of what else will be needed.

Google estimates that this will cost around £140 for the lot which is a bit more than I had hoped for, if anyone here knows if there's any cheaper alternatives for things on that list please let me know.


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## compo (8 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> The 'fixed cup' is fairly easy to remove. You may need a specialist tool, but most of the time you can get away with a regular large spanner.


 
I've heard that before 

The easiest way, if it is very tight, and on an old frame it probably will be, is to use a large nut and bolt. Put the nut inside the cup and screw the bolt through from the outside then use a long ratchet spenner to tighten the bolt and when it bites keep tightening until the cup moves. It can take a frighteningly amount of force to get it to move which is why you need a large nut and bolt that is strong enough to take the pressure. It isn't always this hard to unscrew them but as well to be prepared.

Obviously this wont work on an Italian threaded BB cup because they unscrew in the conventional manner.


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## Tim Hall (8 Jun 2013)

compo said:


> I've heard that before
> 
> The easiest way, if it is very tight, and on an old frame it probably will be, is to use a large nut and bolt. Put the nut inside the cup and screw the bolt through from the outside then use a long ratchet spenner to tighten the bolt and when it bites keep tightening until the cup moves. It can take a frighteningly amount of force to get it to move which is why you need a large nut and bolt that is strong enough to take the pressure. It isn't always this hard to unscrew them but as well to be prepared.
> 
> Obviously this wont work on an Italian threaded BB cup because they unscrew in the conventional manner.


 
It is a beautifully simple method. Possibly my favourite bit of bike tinkering. However it will also undo a right hand threaded cup. Just tighten the nut instead.

The Blessed Sheldon he say:



> *Nut on the Outside*
> 
> The bolt is put through the cup from the inside of the bottom bracket, and the nut screws onto it from the outside. There should be washers on both sides of the cup. You will need a socket wrench and a short extension to tighten the bolt from inside the bottom bracket, and a box wrench for the nut.
> A large socket wrench will not fit into the cup, so you will need some small-diameter washers to space the head of the bolt out so that the socket wrench can reach it. This is what I use the four split lockwashers for. I didn't need lockwashers as such, but the readily available flat washers were too large in outside diameter to fit into the cup.
> ...


More here.

Back to the OP's BB. My guess is it's a 68mm (road standard, FSVO standard), plus a few decades of paint and grime and measuring error to give 70mm.


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## compo (8 Jun 2013)

Tim Hall said:


> It is a beautifully simple method. Possibly my favourite bit of bike tinkering. However it will also undo a right hand threaded cup. Just tighten the nut instead.


 
How come the most obvious solution so often eludes us? I never thought of that.


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## HovR (8 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> I've been researching parts and I think I've come up with a budget/quality list.
> 
> 3TT NOS quill stem - http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/ST3TQUID/3ttt_quid_quill_stem
> Bar Tape - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/bbb-bht-01-race-ribbon-bar-tape/
> ...


 
Cheaper chainset (Stronglight ST55, rings aren't replaceable but it'll last long enough for £20) http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s109p2188
Vittoria Zaffiro tires are slightly cheaper, although I've never tried them myself
Brake levers you could possibly get cheap second hand if you look around
Asda do £4 chains which seem to last well enough, both 3/32 and 1/2
Cheaper stems available on eBay - link
Beware of those brake cables, looks like they have mountain bike lever style ends only. You'll probably need road compatible unless you're going flat bar.

Also, the one thing I wouldn't go cheap on is brake blocks. I've got these on both my bikes now and am fairly impressed with the stopping power: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ashima-one-piece-black-brake-blocks/


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## RecordAceFromNew (8 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> @RecordAceFromNew might be able to help more with working out the threading standard.


 

Apologies for not having read this thread in detail, but it is worth checking the frame with this. If it is indeed old Raleigh proprietary thread then the issue is not just the bb, but probably also the headset. The other thing I would suggest, before spending money, is to find out what the seatpost size is, and perhaps weigh the frame (with as few bits as possible)?


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## Old Plodder (8 Jun 2013)

Vittoria Zaffiro - I ride them, OK for day rides.


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## Deleted member 20519 (8 Jun 2013)

fatmac said:


> Vittoria Zaffiro - I ride them, OK for day rides.


 

I've got Rubino tyres on my road bike, never had any problems/punctures with them so I reckon I'll just get two of them.


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## Deleted member 20519 (8 Jun 2013)

I know you guys are trying to help but I just ain't seeing how I remove this BB


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## HovR (8 Jun 2013)

See those two raised sections? Those are the spanner flats. Normally you'd use a tool like the Park HCW11, but for a one time use you can normally get away with a large adjustable spanner or mole grips.


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## biggs682 (8 Jun 2013)

mind the knuckles


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## RecordAceFromNew (8 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> I know you guys are trying to help but I just ain't seeing how I remove this BB


 
They look like standard adjustable cups that have the lock rings removed to me (usually only the left cup is like this). As the link I provided earlier indicates, you can use a suitable sized spanner on the flats/raised ridges. With one hand pushing the spanner against the bb to stop the spanner slipping off, and the other turning it in the correct direction (drive side counter clockwise and non-drive side clockwise to remove for British thread). Since the lock rings aren't there, it shouldn't take too much effort.


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## Deleted member 20519 (8 Jun 2013)

I'm still confused 






I don't get what I've to do, sorry!


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## HovR (8 Jun 2013)

See the picture I posted above. See the bit the spanner is on? You have the spanner on the spindle, but it needs to be on the cup (the bit which actually screws in to the frame).


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## Deleted member 20519 (8 Jun 2013)

Got it  I managed to remove one of the cups and then the spindle but the other cup seems to be stuck tight.


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## Deleted member 20519 (8 Jun 2013)

BB shell measures 71.25mm. Seatpost diameter was 25.45mm and the handlebar diameter is 24.95mm.


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## ColinJ (8 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Got it  I managed to remove one of the cups and then the spindle but the other cup seems to be stuck tight.


Did you remember that it undoes in the opposite direction to the first one?


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## Tim Hall (8 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Got it  I managed to remove one of the cups and then the spindle but the other cup seems to be stuck tight.


 
So try the Sheldon Brown bolt method that Compo and I have been banging on about. It's just so good.


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## RecordAceFromNew (9 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> BB shell measures *71.25mm*. Seatpost diameter was *25.45mm* and the handlebar diameter is *24.95mm*.


 
I think it is likely that you have a Raleigh 71mm bb shell, which are for all intents and purposes obsolete. You can confirm that by checking if the cup you have removed is 26tpi rather than 24tpi.

With 25.4mm (i.e. 1") seatpost, this might help narrow down what frame it is.

The handlebar size seems a bit unusual. Where is that measurement made? At the stem or at the grip?

If the bearing surfaces of the cups and spindle, especially the cups, are smooth and sound, I would not bother removing the remaining stuck one yet. I would clean them up, and see what needs replacing. If cups are fine I would measure the spindle length and see what markings are on it, and see if there is a way to reuse or replace that. If you have to replace the whole bb the easiest is with a threadless one.


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## Deleted member 20519 (10 Jun 2013)

Thanks for all the info guys. Is there going to be a problem using quick release with horizontal dropouts?


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## HovR (10 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Thanks for all the info guys. Is there going to be a problem using quick release with horizontal dropouts?


 

Nope, just use an internal cam skewer as shown below, and do them up nice and tight.


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## Deleted member 20519 (10 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> Nope, just use an internal cam skewer as shown below, and do them up nice and tight.


 

Would these ones be suitable? http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000B7J7JM/ref=asc_df_B000B7J7JM13561454?smid=A1MVOUW2EB3HKK


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## HovR (10 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Would these ones be suitable? http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000B7J7JM/ref=asc_df_B000B7J7JM13561454?smid=A1MVOUW2EB3HKK


 

That looks like it should be fine.


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## Deleted member 20519 (11 Jun 2013)

Brilliant. Ordered a few small parts today - stem, seatpost and brake pads - rest of the stuff should be ordered this week


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## Deleted member 20519 (12 Jun 2013)

Still haven't gotten the damn BB cup out yet






Is there any problem with having a space between the two nuts?
















Single speed conversion kit






Stem + still unsure of whether I should cut the bars to use bullhorns or stick with drops


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## edindave (12 Jun 2013)

I dunno if it's my eyesight deteriorating but the spoke pattern on those wheels looks really odd!


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## HovR (13 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> Is there any problem with having a space between the two nuts?


 

Unfortunately, yes. Have you ever serviced a cone & locknut wheel hub? The principle behind threaded headsets is very similar. Start by tightening down the lower nut. It should be tightened down until there is no play in the headset, but the forks still turn freely. 

Now, holding the forks so they can't rotate (I use my knees, or you could ask a friend), and holding the lower nut so that it won't move (which would change the preload on the bearings), tighten down the upper nut until it is fairly tight against the lower nut. This keeps the whole assembly from unscrewing which would lead to play in the headset.


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## Deleted member 20519 (13 Jun 2013)

I don't know if you can make this out in the picture but the upper nut can't be tightened any further, it's just stopping once it reaches the top of the steerer.


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## HovR (13 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> I don't know if you can make this out in the picture but the upper nut can't be tightened any further, it's just stopping once it reaches the top of the steerer.


 

In that case the headset is missing some spacers (similar to threadless headset spacers, but only 1") between the two nuts which stops the upper nut from running out of thread.


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## Deleted member 20519 (13 Jun 2013)

HovR said:


> In that case the headset is missing some spacers (similar to threadless headset spacers, but only 1") between the two nuts which stops the upper nut from running out of thread.


 

I'm guessing that I could pick up a spacer from my LBS?


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## HovR (13 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> I'm guessing that I could pick up a spacer from my LBS?


 

Yup, a good LBS should stock 1" (internal diameter) spacers. If not any 1" (not 1 1/8th") spacer off the internet should do.


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## Deleted member 20519 (14 Jun 2013)

Going to head down to my LBS tonight to get the spacer and I'll probably buy brake cables while I'm there.







I think it's looking good.


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## Deleted member 20519 (17 Jun 2013)

Just had one last attempt at getting the BB out before I brought out a blow torch. My LBS wanted £30 to get it out but I managed to do it myself - finally! I poured some boiling water out of my kettle over it and then hit it with a chisel and hammer - I wasn't sure if it had moved at first and I thought my eyes were playing tricks on me! It's free


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## thegravestoneman (17 Jun 2013)

Sorry to come in at a late stage, but is that a fixed wheel or a single speed? If it is fixed I would recommend getting at least a couple of tugs for the rear wheel if not converting it to track nuts too. I used to run fixed wheel on these sorts of frames and found I would often pull the wheel out of alignment when setting off without both these measures.


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## Deleted member 20519 (17 Jun 2013)

thegravestoneman said:


> Sorry to come in at a late stage, but is that a fixed wheel or a single speed? If it is fixed I would recommend getting at least a couple of tugs for the rear wheel if not converting it to track nuts too. I used to run fixed wheel on these sorts of frames and found I would often pull the wheel out of alignment when setting off without both these measures.


 

The rear wheel has a freewheel on it and I bought a single speed conversion kit (a few spacers and a cog) to run single speed.

As mentioned above, HovR said there wouldn't be a problem if I replaced my standard quick release with an internal cam skewer.


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## thegravestoneman (17 Jun 2013)

On a freewheel it shouldn't be any bother, good luck with completing your build and enjoy.


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## Deleted member 20519 (17 Jun 2013)

thegravestoneman said:


> On a freewheel it shouldn't be any bother, good luck with completing your build and enjoy.


 

Thanks!


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## Deleted member 20519 (23 Jun 2013)

The frame and fork is now stripped down to bare metal thanks to Nitromors. I've also managed to find a frame number. I was expecting it to be on the bottom bracket but it seems that it's been blowtorched off. The frame number is on the seatube.

Can anyone help me identify the bike using the frame number? nm5265592


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## Col5632 (26 Jun 2013)

Looking good Jaz, some work has already went into the bike


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## marzjennings (26 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> The rear wheel has a freewheel on it and I bought a single speed conversion kit (a few spacers and a cog) to run single speed.
> 
> As mentioned above, HovR said there wouldn't be a problem if I replaced my standard quick release with an internal cam skewer.


 

I've never had any luck with QR on horizontal or track dropouts and use track nuts to hold the wheel in place. You may get lucky and the QR holds, but be prepared to swap out the QR skewer.


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## Deleted member 20519 (26 Jun 2013)

A little update: I've found a small dent on the fork steerer tube, I'm going to be taking it to my LBS to see what they say but I reckon it'll need replaced which means that the build will be put on hold


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## Deleted member 20519 (26 Jun 2013)

marzjennings said:


> I've never had any luck with QR on horizontal or track dropouts and use track nuts to hold the wheel in place. You may get lucky and the QR holds, but be prepared to swap out the QR skewer.


 

What would I replace the QR skewer with?


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## marzjennings (26 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> What would I replace the QR skewer with?


 

I guess I over simplified replacing the QR skewer, because if the QR doesn't work for you, you're going have to replace the hollow qr axle with a solid one. Which can be done for less than a tenner if you can find a solid axle that's compatible with your rear hub.

I've had to do this as QR didn't work for me, but you get lucky.


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## Deleted member 20519 (26 Jun 2013)

marzjennings said:


> I guess I over simplified replacing the QR skewer, because if the QR doesn't work for you, you're going have to replace the hollow qr axle with a solid one. Which can be done for less than a tenner if you can find a solid axle that's compatible with your rear hub.
> 
> I've had to do this as QR didn't work for me, but you get lucky.


 

I was going to be replacing the standard QR skewer with an internal cam skewer, would it make sense just to find a proper axle to use with track nuts instead?


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## ColinJ (26 Jun 2013)

marzjennings said:


> I've never had any luck with QR on horizontal or track dropouts and use track nuts to hold the wheel in place. You may get lucky and the QR holds, but be prepared to swap out the QR skewer.


I didn't have any problem on my singlespeed bike, even when standing for climbs when I weighed 16 st 6 lbs (230 lbs).

There isn't any luck involved - you just need a good quality QR (e.g. Shimano or Campagnolo) which is done up nice and tight.


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## fossyant (26 Jun 2013)

The dent is probably fine, steel is quite resilient stuff, not like that plastic stuff !


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## marzjennings (26 Jun 2013)

jazloc said:


> I was going to be replacing the standard QR skewer with an internal cam skewer, would it make sense just to find a proper axle to use with track nuts instead?


 

If the QR holds then you're good. Try it first and if you find the wheel shifting then look at track nuts and solid axle.


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## HovR (26 Jun 2013)

There's no reason why a quality QR skewer shouldn't work with the horizontal dropouts. I currently own two horizontal dropout bikes with internal cam QR skewers and they've never slipped. In the past, hundreds of models of bikes used QR skewers before the invention of vertical dropouts with no issue.

You do have to ensure that you're tightening them up properly though - almost as tight as you can physically close it.


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