# Concerning noise from my Bromptons wheel



## berylthebrompton (8 Jul 2016)

Hello!



I am getting this loud, "scratching" noise from my rear wheel. It happens when cycling in any gear, but also when free-wheeling. I can't get it to happen when the bike is off the ground/being worked on. It only happens when I am riding it. I have loosens the brake (incase it was rubbing) and it still happens. Makes me think its the weight of the rider and the sound is the spokes? If I am right I am concerned it may be something that needs to be looked at - as the wheels integrity may be compromised. Thoughts?

If you agree it is the spokes, how do you go about resolving it?

Cheers!

James


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## alicat (8 Jul 2016)

It sounds like something is catching on the wheel to me, perhaps something that is nearer the wheel when your weight is on the bike.


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## annedonnelly (8 Jul 2016)

Anything inside the mudguard? Mine sometimes makes an alarming noise but it's the flap on the front mudguard being blown against the wheel.


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## growingvegetables (8 Jul 2016)

+1 on thinking about the mudguard.


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## berylthebrompton (8 Jul 2016)

Thanks for your replies.



alicat said:


> It sounds like something is catching on the wheel to me, perhaps something that is nearer the wheel when your weight is on the bike.



I got someone to sit on the bike and I checked - can't see anything that would be closer. Likewise, the rear triangle has everything attached to it, so nothing over closer to the wheel when weight is on it - it all moves together. The only thing that moves is the suspension block, but it doesn't sound like the normal "squeak" these can make.



annedonnelly said:


> Anything inside the mudguard? Mine sometimes makes an alarming noise but it's the flap on the front mudguard being blown against the wheel.





growingvegetables said:


> +1 on thinking about the mudguard.



I checked the mudguard and can't see anything out of place that could be rubbing. Also checked inside incase something was stuck under it - nothing. Likewise, it wouldn't explain why the sound only happens when cycling - the mudguard isn't moving any close when the bike has weight on it, and the noise can't be reproduced by spinning the pedal with the wheel of the ground.


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## Arellcat (9 Jul 2016)

It sounds like one of your spokes is much looser than the others. My B's back wheel broke a spoke after about 1000 miles; I replaced it as part of a full rebuild using a new rim and it's been fine for the subsequent 2500 miles. The Brompton wheel build quality is good but it can be better.


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## shouldbeinbed (9 Jul 2016)

Have you played the spokes like a harp to feel for any difference in tension across them just to rule that out or in? 

I've never heard a loose spoke on any bike so loud it ticks to match the Brommy hub tic though. On or off the bike if that loose I'd expect to be able to find it pretty quickly, also I'd have expected those overloaded by such a rattly loose one to have failed already. 

It sounds like its a regular rhythmic tic as if something is hitting the same other thing each wheel turn, which would suggest something on, in or very close to the tyre on the bike given its greater give under bodyweight. 
V close would suggest catching on a spoke stay or the tail end of the mudguard. 

Noting your post above but a stationary sat on bike is different again to one sat on in motion so don't totally discount something catching. 

Could you get someone else to film you while riding; on a clear safe straight bit; as it's hard to see much in your clip that could help diagnose across the web. 

It's not clear if your tyres have a 3M reflective band around rhem, silly aa it my seem but could the end of that, if there, be standing proud and catching?


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (9 Jul 2016)

Sounds like drive side bearings to me. They are infamously sealed and dry out at the drop of a hat. 
Fiddly to do but easy enough and not overly complicated. 
There's plenty of YouTube videos.


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## chris folder (10 Jul 2016)

Hiit sounds like spoke area or mudguard should not be making that noise have you watched wheel in with bike lifted up see if anything rubbing check see if any spokes are loose on wheel and check under mudguard and rails to


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## berylthebrompton (10 Jul 2016)

Thanks for all the replies.

I checked for loose spokes and couldn't see any obvious ones - I slightly tightened one/two and it didn't make a difference. I then cleaned where the spokes join the hub, and behind the black plastic guard that sits between the sprockets and the hub - and this seems to have resolved it! Thinking something may have been caught between the guard/hub/spokes (which moved slightly under weight) and was rubbing and resonating through the spokes - making the sound.


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## chris folder (11 Jul 2016)

Hi great all ok now then


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## berylthebrompton (27 Jul 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Sounds like drive side bearings to me. They are infamously sealed and dry out at the drop of a hat.
> Fiddly to do but easy enough and not overly complicated.
> There's plenty of YouTube videos.



The sound had returned! When you say drive side bearings, as in the ball bearings in the hub?


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## SavageHoutkop (27 Jul 2016)

When checking the mudguard, did you check the nut that keeps the flap on? That starts rubbing as the thing works loose, and just before it vanishes never to be seen again....


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (27 Jul 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> The sound had returned! When you say drive side bearings, as in the ball bearings in the hub?


Yes, they're behind the sprockets.


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## berylthebrompton (27 Jul 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Yes, they're behind the sprockets.



Okay. I think I agree with you - would explain a) why it happens when free wheeling, b) why it only happens when weight is applied to the axel and c) why it resonates through the spokes. Thing is, the bike is only 10 months old - has ridden less than 1000 miles. Surely the hub shouldn't need servicing already?


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (27 Jul 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Okay. I think I agree with you - would explain a) why it happens when free wheeling, b) why it only happens when weight is applied to the axel and c) why it resonates through the spokes. Thing is, the bike is only 10 months old - has ridden less than 1000 miles. Surely the hub shouldn't need servicing already?


Unfortunately they can dry out in less from new. BBL are infamous for saving on the grease. They can dry out in one ride if the conditions are right. The problem is that too much grease gums up the thin sheet metal 'top hat' pawl cover and it snaps.


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## berylthebrompton (27 Jul 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Unfortunately they can dry out in less from new. BBL are infamous for saving on the grease. They can dry out in one ride if the conditions are right. The problem is that too much grease gums up the thin sheet metal 'top hat' pawl cover and it snaps.



Okay. Think I will take it to the bike shop I bought it from - it is under warranty still. Thanks for your help.


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## 12boy (28 Jul 2016)

Let us know what they discover, please. I have a lot of trouble ignoring sounds made by the bike, they just drive me crazy, although all my squeaks and creaks came from either my leather saddle or the suspension block. It seems the seat tube carries noise which makes it very hard to determine where the sound is coming from. Good luck!


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## berylthebrompton (8 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Unfortunately they can dry out in less from new. BBL are infamous for saving on the grease. They can dry out in one ride if the conditions are right. The problem is that too much grease gums up the thin sheet metal 'top hat' pawl cover and it snaps.



So I took my Brompton to the bike shop and the mechanic said that it doesn't need a hub service - and not to worry about the sound! They said as the hub isn't having issue changing gears or riding rough, just to leave it. Not particularly impressed with the service from the independent place I bought it from (and they are a Brompton Premier Store!). So I am looking at regreasing the bearings myself. BUT I am seeing conflicting information online about what to use. I know that the hub itself would require an oil, but is it okay to use lithium grease on the bearings?



12boy said:


> Let us know what they discover, please. I have a lot of trouble ignoring sounds made by the bike, they just drive me crazy, although all my squeaks and creaks came from either my leather saddle or the suspension block. It seems the seat tube carries noise which makes it very hard to determine where the sound is coming from. Good luck!



I definitely agree with Rohloff_Brompton_Rider that the issue is coming from the hub. The only way to prove it is to service it!


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## Fab Foodie (8 Aug 2016)

Mine makes all kinds of noises, sometimes more, sometimes less .... different noises in the wet ... but I try to ignore them. S6L.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (9 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> So I took my Brompton to the bike shop and the mechanic said that it doesn't need a hub service - and not to worry about the sound! They said as the hub isn't having issue changing gears or riding bought, just to leave it. Not particularly impressed with the service from the independent place I bought it from (and they are a Brompton Premier Store!). So I am looking at regreasing the bearings myself. BUT I am seeing conflicting information online about what to use. I know that the hub itself would require an oil, but is it okay to use lithium grease on the bearings?
> 
> 
> 
> I definitely agree with Rohloff_Brompton_Rider that the issue is coming from the hub. The only way to prove it is to service it!


Only grease the bearings! I can't stress this enough and make sure you don't overload with grease so that the excess makes it's way into the pawls top hat cover. Lithium is fine.


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## berylthebrompton (9 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Only grease the bearings! I can't stress this enough and make sure you don't overload with grease so that the excess makes it's way into the pawls top hat cover. Lithium is fine.



Okay, thanks of you advice. Is it safe to degrease and clean the cone/bearing cage before re greasing? I have found this video on YouTube which seems to show the greasing quite well. 

I have also found this concerning blog post by the Brompton BumbleB with the same sounding issue: "Well yesterday I had to leave BBB at my local bike shop as his rear hub was grinding and making alot of noise etc. The hub normally does this every time I clean but goes away after a short time. This has been going on for over a yr maybe longer after a clean.. I thought if anything it just needed taking apart and re greasing. How wrong I was. First of all it seems that I've got water & MUD inside the hub. But not from a recent ride, from what he says its been like that for over a yr atleast. One set of bearings & cradle have rusted pretty badly and had to be replaced as well as the cone on the drive side."


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (10 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Okay, thanks of you advice. Is it safe to degrease and clean the cone/bearing cage before re greasing? I have found this video on YouTube which seems to show the greasing quite well.
> 
> I have also found this concerning blog post by the Brompton BumbleB with the same sounding issue: "Well yesterday I had to leave BBB at my local bike shop as his rear hub was grinding and making alot of noise etc. The hub normally does this every time I clean but goes away after a short time. This has been going on for over a yr maybe longer after a clean.. I thought if anything it just needed taking apart and re greasing. How wrong I was. First of all it seems that I've got water & MUD inside the hub. But not from a recent ride, from what he says its been like that for over a yr atleast. One set of bearings & cradle have rusted pretty badly and had to be replaced as well as the cone on the drive side."


It is what it is, and like Schrödinger's cat you'll not know till you open it up.


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## berylthebrompton (10 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> It is what it is, and like Schrödinger's cat you'll not know till you open it up.



So I checked the drive side bearing and they all seem to be undamaged. I re greased them - but unfortunately the issue is just the same. 

Also, since greasing the bearings the power of the hub seems to be overpowering the chain tensioner, causing the chain to slouch.



When the bike was new it did this, but it went away with time. I assume I have tightened either the cone or the lock nut too tight? Or is it something else? Any advice would be appreciated!


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## 12boy (11 Aug 2016)

The lock nuts, both the ones holding the axle in place and the one for the tensioner do not affect the wheel's turning around. The cones definitely do.I had a 3speed on a 700 c wheel that would not work properly.My LBS mechanics rebuilt it several times to no avail. It was finally fixed when he realized there are 2 types of grease and heavy grease in the wrong place was causing my problems.however I since read an article indicating these hubs work best when lubed with oil instead of grease. I put a cc or so of 5-20 synthetic oil I use for my cars on both the 700c wheel and my Brompton 3 speed and they work just great. The oil does ooze out very slowly so when they start making a little noise I add some more. You flip the bike on its side, remove the spindle form the axle and put the oil in the axle. No need to take the wheel off. As far as the cones go, the wheel should spin freely without any give if you push the wheel from side to side. If you can check the cones with the wheel in the dropouts and without the tensioner and chain in place it should be quick and easy. Leave the brake disconnected so as to pull the wheel in and out for adjustment until you are sure it spins freely but without any sideways looseness.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> So I checked the drive side bearing and they all seem to be undamaged. I re greased them - but unfortunately the issue is just the same.
> 
> Also, since greasing the bearings the power of the hub seems to be overpowering the chain tensioner, causing the chain to slouch.
> 
> ...



Was that in 3rd? A well known issue with B's is the friction in bottom gear. It can cause alarming chain droop on descents. Switching into 1/2/4/5 usually helps. Don't worry too much though as it improves as the hub wears in. 
Is the noise still there?


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## berylthebrompton (11 Aug 2016)

12boy said:


> The lock nuts, both the ones holding the axle in place and the one for the tensioner do not affect the wheel's turning around. The cones definitely do. As far as the cones go, the wheel should spin freely without any give if you push the wheel from side to side. If you can check the cones with the wheel in the dropouts and without the tensioner and chain in place it should be quick and easy. Leave the brake disconnected so as to pull the wheel in and out for adjustment until you are sure it spins freely but without any sideways looseness.



Should the cones only be finger tight then? My worry was if the cones weren't tight then this could be a point where water and dirt could get in.



Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Was that in 3rd? A well known issue with B's is the friction in bottom gear. It can cause alarming chain droop on descents. Switching into 1/2/4/5 usually helps. Don't worry too much though as it improves as the hub wears in.
> Is the noise still there?



It happens in all gears. The noise is still there. I was able to clean the bearing ring, but I didn't feel comfortable trying to get to the bearings inside the driver to clean them - so I just added some more grease. I am wondering whether a) some grit is still in there rubbing or b) something has caused pitting to the bearings or surface and it is grinding? The positive is I couldn't see any obvious damage.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Should the cones only be finger tight then? My worry was if the cones weren't tight then this could be a point where water and dirt could get in.
> 
> 
> 
> It happens in all gears. The noise is still there. I was able to clean the bearing ring, but I didn't feel comfortable trying to get to the bearings inside the driver to clean them - so I just added some more grease. I am wondering whether a) some grit is still in there rubbing or b) something has caused pitting to the bearings or surface and it is grinding? The positive is I couldn't see any obvious damage.


Ah, so you've not serviced it then? There's inner and outer on the driver. You can't say it didn't work until you've done it.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2016)

Re the cones; loosely finger tight on the drive side then back off one but flat. There should be a few MMs play at the wheel. No play = bad.


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## berylthebrompton (11 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Re the cones; loosely finger tight on the drive side then back off one but flat. There should be a few MMs play at the wheel. No play = bad.



Think that's what I have done then.


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## berylthebrompton (11 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Ah, so you've not serviced it then? There's inner and outer on the driver. You can't say it didn't work until you've done it.



True - I didn't want to dismantle the entire hub myself, only re grease of it was easy. I still agree with you it is hub related.


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## berylthebrompton (11 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Re the cones; loosely finger tight on the drive side then back off one but flat. There should be a few MMs play at the wheel. No play = bad.



Followed your (and 12boy's) guidance - it has fixed the chain issue. Thanks! Although the wheel does have side-side play. Is this correct?



Also I have had a go at degreasing and re greasing the bearings again. Will see if it has improved on tomorrows commute.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Followed your (and 12boy's) guidance - it has fixed the chain issue. Thanks! Although the wheel does have side-side play. Is this correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Also I have had a go at degreasing and re greasing the bearings again. Will see if it has improved on tomorrows commute.



It's difficult for me say how much play I used to have. It just kinda rocked side to side 'what felt right'. I learned the hard way as a lad that 'cones need space'. Just ensure you've tightened the lock nuts properly. Hopefully you'll have found the noise issue without having to do the full strip down.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (11 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Followed your (and 12boy's) guidance - it has fixed the chain issue. Thanks! Although the wheel does have side-side play. Is this correct?
> 
> 
> 
> Also I have had a go at degreasing and re greasing the bearings again. Will see if it has improved on tomorrows commute.



Personally I'd just just take up a bit of the slack, it's seems a bit loose in the video. But better that way than tight.


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## berylthebrompton (11 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Personally I'd just just take up a bit of the slack, it's seems a bit loose in the video. But better that way than tight.



Roger roger. Thanks!


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## berylthebrompton (12 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Personally I'd just just take up a bit of the slack, it's seems a bit loose in the video. But better that way than tight.



Sadly, the noise is still there. Also, since greasing the bearings I now have new "glass-tinking" sound when freewheeling and in the lowest hub gear. Wondering if it is the actuator plate rattling on the driver assembly? Maybe the cone needs tightening to hold them closer together? Also after cleaning the driver assembly I didn't add any oil to the lower pawls - is that right? Thought adding anything on them would gum them up and cause issues.

Thanks again for all you help and advice.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (12 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Sadly, the noise is still there. Also, since greasing the bearings I now have new "glass-tinking" sound when freewheeling and in the lowest hub gear. Wondering if it is the actuator plate rattling on the driver assembly? Maybe the cone needs tightening to hold them closer together? Also after cleaning the driver assembly I didn't add any oil to the lower pawls - is that right? Thought adding anything on them would gum them up and cause issues.
> 
> Thanks again for all you help and advice.



Do you mean the rhythmic ticking noise when peddling? If you do, that's what it's supposed to do. Re the oil, too much oil only causes a dirty bike. It's just grease that's an issue.


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## berylthebrompton (12 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Do you mean the rhythmic ticking noise when peddling? If you do, that's what it's supposed to do. Re the oil, too much oil only causes a dirty bike. It's just grease that's an issue.



No not the pawls ticking. You can hear it most at 26/27secs - its literal metal-on-metal rattling. I am pretty sure its the actuator as its one of the only parts I have touched.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (12 Aug 2016)

Sorry I may have missed this earlier, is a 3 speed BSR or 6 speed. The 3 speeds do develop a death rattle, which is just part n parcel of the hub.

Just checked 6 speed. 

Possibly slip some oil in through the monkey chain hole.


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## berylthebrompton (12 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Sorry I may have missed this earlier, is a 3 speed BSR or 6 speed. The 3 speeds do develop a death rattle, which is just part n parcel of the hub.



6spd BWR. To be honest I am surprised the hubs make so many noises - I thought the hub was nice and safe being self-contained and wouldn't cause me any bother!

I can't believe there is so little official documentation for the 6 spd - I read here that you can't even get spares without sending the old part back to Brompton first!


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (12 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> 6spd BWR. To be honest I am surprised the hubs make so many noises - I thought the hub was nice and safe being self-contained and wouldn't cause me any bother!
> 
> I can't believe there is so little official documentation for the 6 spd - I read here that you can't even get spares without sending the old part back to Brompton first!


Tbf it is only noisy and not causing issues. Iirc spares are available at SJS cycles as its a pretty generic SA hub.


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## berylthebrompton (12 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> Tbf it is only noisy and not causing issues. Iirc spares are available at SJS cycles as its a pretty generic SA hub.



True - because it's my first Brompton/bike and it's less than a year old, maybe my expectations of it sounding "new" for longer are a bit näive! Thanks for you help again.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (12 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> True - because it's my first Brompton/bike and it's less than a year old, maybe my expectations of it sounding "new" for longer are a bit näive! Thanks for you help again.


No problems, in all honesty I'd have stripped down. It's takes less than an hour once you've done it a few times. I never had fancy tools, I just used a hammer and chisel to unlock/lock the main body ring.


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## berylthebrompton (12 Aug 2016)

Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said:


> No problems, in all honesty I'd have stripped down. It's takes less than an hour once you've done it a few times. I never had fancy tools, I just used a hammer and chisel to unlock/lock the main body ring.



Yes I have so much practice through trial and error that I can confidently get to the hub now! And I feel more confident about taking on the hub service myself. I am only apprehensive whilst I am still in my warranty - but going forward I am much more game to do all the repairs myself.


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## Rohloff_Brompton_Rider (12 Aug 2016)

berylthebrompton said:


> Yes I have so much practice through trial and error that I can confidently get to the hub now! And I feel more confident about taking on the hub service myself. I am only apprehensive whilst I am still in my warranty - but going forward I am much more game to do all the repairs myself.


That's how I learned. It seemed daunting as first, but became a regular no issue on a Saturday morning.


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## Kell (13 Aug 2016)

This may be too late, but I found there's a sweet spot with the cones. Too loose and it freewheels nicely, but wobbles a lot. Too tight and you get no side-to-side movement, but the wheel doesn't freewheel. 

Whether it's 'correct' or not I found that a mm or so of movement at the tyre gave the best balance for me.


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## berylthebrompton (13 Aug 2016)

Kell said:


> This may be too late, but I found there's a sweet spot with the cones. Too loose and it freewheels nicely, but wobbles a lot. Too tight and you get no side-to-side movement, but the wheel doesn't freewheel.
> 
> Whether it's 'correct' or not I found that a mm or so of movement at the tyre gave the best balance for me.



Yeah I think I am about there - there is a small amount of movement but the rattling from the actuator has gone, and the crank can freely be rotated backwards for the fold.


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## berylthebrompton (10 Jan 2017)

Sorry to drag up an old thread, but here's an update...

Finally had enough and took Beryl to the bike shop. The mechanic agreed with what @Rohloff_Brompton_Rider said about the drive-side bearings being dry. He stripped the hub, visually inspected all the parts, cleaned and re-greased it. I took it out for a cycle and got caught in the rain (seems that the issue happens after the bike gets wet) and sure enough, the problem was back the next day.

Took it back to the bike shop, where the mechanic said he had spoken to Brompton about the issue. He said that with any hub issue, other than cleaning and visually inspecting the parts, it is difficult to identify what is causing the noise. He said as a long shot he could try changing the driver, but if the issue remained then the only other option would be to send the rear wheel or the whole bike to Brompton! I wasn't keen on the latter option, as I would be bikeless and without a way of getting to work. So I asked him to try a new driver first.

About a week later and: mixed results. Initially the noise went, until I rode in the rain. The noise still seems to be there, but a lot quieter.

I don't know where to go from here. The issue is intermittent, so I fear the bike going to Brompton could be fruitless and just leave me inconvienced with regards to no transport. I wondered if anyone else had any other ideas as to what it could be, or experience with repairs directly with Brompton?

Thanks in advance.

James


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## 12boy (11 Jan 2017)

I had an SA 3 speed in the LBS here for months. These hubs are very rare here and they took it apart and rebuilt it several times. Eventually it worked ok and the LBS guy said it hadn't worked earlier because the hubs take a light grease inside and a heavier one outside. I'd read that putting some oil in the hub through the hollow axle on the right side would work even better although over time it would seep out and need to be replaced. I found both of these things to be true. I put 1.5 ccs of 5/25 synthetic motor oil in and it was quiet immediately and shifted perfectly even when close to 0 degrees Fahrenheit. Why not give it a try? I used motor oil as above but lightweight oils of other types should work as well. Turn the bike onto its left side and put the oil in. If it starts to get noisy again add .5 ccs. This is a very easy and cheap fix and I hope it works for you..


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## Fields Electric (22 Aug 2020)

Bit late I know. I had the same problem after rain. I took both the cones out cleaned the old grease and replaced it with lithium grease. I noted that there was some pitting on the drive side cone. Only on one side. I am relatively familiar with the old much larger S.A. Hubs. This one has a pressed metal ring to close the pawls on the drive side. Which you have to sure is aligned with the drive splines correctly. Mine worked and then stopped 4 miles from home. On the second re-assemble the noise stopped. Although there was no evidence that it was under lubricated the first time.


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