# Knee pain



## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

Last 2 rides ive done ive been getting knee pain from around 20 miles in, last week i finished the 40 miles i had planned but couldn't walk all weekend.

Currently im at the side of the rd 30 miles in waiting for the mrs to pick me up.

Another weekend not being able to walk!

It starts gradually and gets worse over time, seems to be more then spinning up hill, not so bad standing up.

It starts like a cramping feeling at the top of my calf, back of my knee.

Any ideas?


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## Mo1959 (11 May 2019)

Back of the knee can sometimes be saddle too high??


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## ianrauk (11 May 2019)

Are you using cleats?
Is your saddle at the correct height?
Knee pain can be caused by a good few variables.


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## Crackle (11 May 2019)

As Mo said, pain at the back of your knee is quite commonly your saddle being too high. I'd look at that first. I'd look also at cleat set up, whether you have enough float.


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## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

Sorry should have said, i use flat pedals and trainers

Ive had a bike fit but have since played with the bars height , i raised them up.

Maybe try lowering saddle slightly


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## vickster (11 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Sorry should have said, i use flat pedals and trainers
> 
> Ive had a bike fit but have since played with the bars height , i raised them up.
> 
> Maybe try lowering saddle slightly


Get back in touch with the bike fitter (is s/he a physio orva bike shop fitter?)...get reassessed either way

Does it only hurt cycling? Ice it after stretching it when you get home


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## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

It was a bike shop fit


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## vickster (11 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> It was a bike shop fit


Hmm that's a shame. Although if experienced, the fitter should have a thorough understanding of what causes kneepain on the bike (at least in the healthy knee)


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## Crackle (11 May 2019)

If you only get this cycling it's bike setup


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## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

Yep only cycling, otherwise healthy knees
Its lasts a couple days then goes

Last week it felt like it started in my calf and worked its way ul to my knee


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## vickster (11 May 2019)

Calf strain?


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## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

I dont think so, this week was just behind the knee not in the calf at all.
Its when im in a high gear and spinning up hills but once it starts it just gets worse and worse, luckily as i stoped and got picked up its fine now
Ive lowered my seat by 5mm so guess i will see how that goes


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## Crackle (11 May 2019)

Any tenderness behind the knee now. If so, you might have inflamed something. You have some hamstring insertion points behind the knee and the poplietus muscles and tendons. If there is you probably shouldn't ride until that's gone.


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## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

No its not tender now, i can feel it going up and down the stairs but its its nothing like last week.
But thats because i didnt try and push through this time.


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## stalagmike (11 May 2019)

I'm not a physio or anything but I'd say if you can't walk after riding then I would certainly think about giving it a rest for at least a couple of weeks. You've probably strained something and it just needs time to heal.


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## Crackle (11 May 2019)

If you can still feel it, bearing in mind you've had this happen the last few times you've been on the bike, then I'd rest it, ice it and perhaps stretch it or use roller on your hamstrings, certainly the first two. If it doesn't clear up I'd consider a sport therapist/Physio but I'd be cautious riding on it until it doesn't react.


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## gazza81 (11 May 2019)

Its absolutely fine now, unlike last week.

Last week i couldn't walk for a day and a half with out limping

Ive lowered the saddle slightly and moved it forward slightly too

Its just really frustrating as i was starting to get some good miles going now im worried about going too far incase the mrs cant get me next time.


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

Im wondering wether, when up hill struggling in a low gear im putting my heal down at the bottom of the stroke abit causing my leg to straighten too much.


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

View: https://youtu.be/-eyR0sVR01o


Done a quick film of me riding on the trainer 

Looks ok to me?


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## vickster (12 May 2019)

Take a photo of you with heel on pedal at bottom of stroke (crank straight)


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

I done that this morning, trainers back in the loft now haha


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## jowwy (12 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> View: https://youtu.be/-eyR0sVR01o
> 
> 
> Done a quick film of me riding on the trainer
> ...



Saddle is way too high....look at your hips rocking

Lower saddle until the hips stop rocking


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

Thats set 5mm lower than the bike fit had it at!


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## Crackle (12 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> View: https://youtu.be/-eyR0sVR01o
> 
> 
> Done a quick film of me riding on the trainer
> ...



Generally it looks OK, as you'd expect from a bike fit. The only thing I thought I noticed was that your heel lift is uneven, sometimes high, sometimes low. As you said, if under load you're flattening your foot more that might be the cause. I thought generally you're a heel up rider which will strain your calfs. 

Watch this guy


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## rualexander (12 May 2019)

jowwy said:


> Saddle is way too high....look at your hips rocking
> 
> Lower saddle until the hips stop rocking



No, saddle isn't too high, looks about right, look at leg extension.


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

Couple of stills


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## vickster (12 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Couple of stills
> View attachment 466247
> View attachment 466248


Heel on pedal not ball of foot

You look pretty upright and straight of arm to me, but I'm no expert 

Do you always ride in joggers or padded shorts? The latter put you higher, you need to replicate how you ride /were actually fitted to the bike (Shoes make a difference too)


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

Ive raised the bars 1cm since the fit as i feel more comfortable the more upright i am


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## vickster (12 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Ive raised the bars 1cm since the fit as i feel more comfortable the more upright i am


Do you have any bend in your elbows though?


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

I do yeah, slightly

Maybe i could do with a little more bend.
Is that done bu lowering the bars or tilting the hoods up more?

Tbh im more concerned about the knee pain as its definitely either a fit problem or a technique problem


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## vickster (12 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> I do yeah, slightly
> 
> Maybe i could do with a little more bend.
> Is that done bu lowering the bars or tilting the hoods up more?
> ...


Shortening the reach (?)

Knee...photo in the gear you ride in, heel on pedal at bottom of pedal stroke, knee should be slightly bent, if straight too high (and your hips would rock as you pedal)


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## gazza81 (12 May 2019)

Them stills are from the film, trainers in the loft now.
Going on holiday in the morning so will have to wait for now.


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## vickster (12 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Them stills are from the film, trainers in the loft now.
> Going on holiday in the morning so will have to wait for now.


Good, give the knee the rest from the bike


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## jowwy (12 May 2019)

rualexander said:


> No, saddle isn't too high, looks about right, look at leg extension.


Look at his hips rocking like mick jagger in the 70s....no way is that right. That’s why his knees are hurting, over extension and causing the hips to rock


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## Kajjal (12 May 2019)

jowwy said:


> Look at his hips rocking like mick jagger in the 70s....no way is that right. That’s why his knees are hurting, over extension and causing the hips to rock



To add to this the feet are pointing down which is often a sign of a saddle that is too high. The basic idea is when peddling you feel like you are in the bike not perched on top like a penny farthing.

A quick test is with your feet flat and the pedal down in line with the seat tube can you lift yourself vertically off the saddle in line with the seat tube. If you can’t it is very likely your saddle is too high which causes various strains and aches depending on how your body reacts.


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

Kajjal said:


> A quick test is with your feet flat and the pedal down in line with the seat tube can you lift yourself vertically off the saddle in line with the seat tube.



Im not really sure i understand this?
So pedal at 6 oclock? Heal on pedal? 
Then see if i have room between me and the seat?


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

vickster said:


> Do you always ride in joggers or padded shorts? The latter put you higher, you need to replicate how you ride /were actually fitted to the bike (Shoes make a difference too)



I ride in padded shorts, i did think i should set up bike with them on


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## vickster (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> I ride in padded shorts, i did think i should set up bike with them on


Did you not wear them for the bike fit??


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

I did yeah

Just not when i play with it at home

Ive always thought its slightly too big for me anyway so might just sell it


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## vickster (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> I did yeah
> 
> Just not when i play with it at home
> 
> Ive always thought its slightly too big for me anyway so might just sell it


What did the fitter say about the size? Try a shorter stem if stretched and lower the saddle to alleviate knee pain


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

He said i was a 57
The bikes a 58 ive already gone from a 110 stem to 90

Thinking i might get a 56 
Im 5 11


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## Crackle (13 May 2019)

That 2nd still you posted definitely looks wrong. You're not quite at the bottom of your pedal stroke but already your leg looks over extended. This explains why you're cycling heel up in the video.

I'm with Jowwy now in thinking your hips are rocking too much but ultimately if you've got back of the knee pain, there's really no question that the saddle is too high.

In general, that bike is huge, you've got no bend in your elbows either. Just watch a few videos on GCN and look how they look on their bikes. That one I posted shows all the pros pedalling with a much flatter foot and more a bend in their leg than you have.

I kinda thought if you'd had a bike fit, then it must be vaguely right but in fact, it's shockingly wrong.


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## vickster (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> He said i was a 57
> The bikes a 58 ive already gone from a 110 stem to 90
> 
> Thinking i might get a 56
> Im 5 11


Is it an XL?

https://geometrygeeks.bike/bike/b-twin-triban-540-2017/


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## ianrauk (13 May 2019)

I agree with a few others. Saddle too high.


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## stalagmike (13 May 2019)

Probably too late but perhaps you could go back to wherever you got your bike fit done and explain the problem. It seems like whoever did it got it badly wrong. I've never had one but I hear they can be quite expensive. Did you get it bundled in with the bike purchase?


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## vickster (13 May 2019)

stalagmike said:


> Probably too late but perhaps you could go back to wherever you got your bike fit done and explain the problem. It seems like whoever did it got it badly wrong. I've never had one but I hear they can be quite expensive. Did you get it bundled in with the bike purchase?


I think the bike was second hand


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

Yeah its a xl
I bought it second hand and he said it was L wasn't untill i got home i realised it was xl

The bike fit was at a evans store, about £45


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

Crackle said:


> That 2nd still you posted definitely looks wrong. You're not quite at the bottom of your pedal stroke but already your leg looks over extended. This explains why you're cycling heel up in the video.
> 
> I'm with Jowwy now in thinking your hips are rocking too much but ultimately if you've got back of the knee pain, there's really no question that the saddle is too high.
> 
> ...



See to me my legs doesn't look over extended? I have quite a bend in my knee?
Could someone post a pic of how my leg should look?


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## jowwy (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> See to me my legs doesn't look over extended? I have quite a bend in my knee?
> Could someone post a pic of how my leg should look?


You cycling on tip toes, your hips are rocking and you have behind the knee pain....all 3 things point to saddle being too high

Forget knee bend at whatever position its irrelevant. Riding comfortably and pain free is what you should be aiming for......


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## Crackle (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> See to me my legs doesn't look over extended? I have quite a bend in my knee?
> Could someone post a pic of how my leg should look?


I think Vickster said; heel on pedal with the pedal at 6 o clock and your leg should be straight. But that's a starter. it then depends on other factors such as pedalling style, seat position, cleat position. I would have thought you're bike fit would have done all that, which is why I can't quite decide whether it's too high or not. But as Jowwy says, ultimately it's too high if you're getting pain behind the knee and it's only the bike which is causing this i.e. you don't normally have pain doing other things.

My own saddle height is slightly less than optimal precisely because I've had pain behind the knee.


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

I did do it with heal on pedal, the bike fit guy actually raised it slightly from where i set it 
Ive now lowered it by 5mm


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## vickster (13 May 2019)

Crackle said:


> I think Vickster said; heel on pedal with the pedal at 6 o clock and your leg should be straight. But that's a starter. it then depends on other factors such as pedalling style, seat position, cleat position. I would have thought you're bike fit would have done all that, which is why I can't quite decide whether it's too high or not. But as Jowwy says, ultimately it's too high if you're getting pain behind the knee and it's only the bike which is causing this i.e. you don't normally have pain doing other things.
> 
> My own saddle height is slightly less than optimal precisely because I've had pain behind the knee.


I have my knee slightly bent with heel on pedal. I have poorly knees though and full extension (and deep flexion) are uncomfortable 

My last 2 fits have been done by physios familiar with my numerous ails (the Retul one was pretty poor in comparison, focused on performance not comfort)


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## vickster (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> I did do it with heal on pedal, the bike fit guy actually raised it slightly from where i set it
> Ive now lowered it by 5mm


Heel


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## Kajjal (13 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Im not really sure i understand this?
> So pedal at 6 oclock? Heal on pedal?
> Then see if i have room between me and the seat?



The seat tube is where the tube on the frame the saddle slides into, you need your feet on both pedals in your normal cycling position for your feet. Then free wheel and try to lift.


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## gazza81 (13 May 2019)

Oh right ok i think i get what you're saying


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## Kajjal (13 May 2019)

I will try to explain it differently 

When you raise and lower your saddle the tube in the frame the seat post goes into is called the seat tube.

Free wheel on your bike and put either pedal down so the crank arm is pointing down in line with the seat tube. It will not be straight down but slightly diagonal as the seat tube is also at an angle. This is the furthest distance from the saddle to the pedal.

Then keeping your feet flat on the pedals try to lift yourself off the saddle upwards in the same direction the seat post points upwards, this will be diagonally backwards. If you cannot lift yourself a little your saddle is too high. Just keep repeating lowering the saddle until you can lift a little and it is better to be a bit low than a bit high. It will likely feel very different to how it is now.

People’s bodies vary a lot in their makeup, strength and flexibility which is why bike fit rules / methods have to be interpreted to suit the individual and taken literally are often incorrect.

Hope that helps, if not just keep dropping the saddle until you stop rocking on the saddle and no longer point your feet down to reach the pedals at the bottom.


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## stalagmike (13 May 2019)

I ride a btwin triban in XL ( well it doesn't say XL on it but it's a 63) but then I'm 6ft 3. It might be that it's just too big for you at 5 11. However, overall height is no indication of leg length of course.


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## gazza81 (18 May 2019)

Right new bike, set up correctly i hope!

Seat hight is alot lower than on the previous bike

Set up with heel on pedal






What do you guys think?

View: https://youtu.be/6oMaTohLyCw


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## gazza81 (20 May 2019)

Nobody think that looks right or wrong? 

No matter how low the saddle my hips seem to move a bit unless i have it super low


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## vickster (20 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Nobody think that looks right or wrong?
> 
> No matter how low the saddle my hips seem to move a bit unless i have it super low


How’s your core?

Hard to tell from pic as foot not flat

How does your knee feel when you ride?


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## gazza81 (20 May 2019)

Ive not been out on another ride yet, been tinkering with the bike, the gears were jumping so sorted that out.

Im going to try and get out weds evening for a couple hrs work depending 

Ive had no problems with my knee since the last time i was on the bike


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## vickster (20 May 2019)

Take an Allen key with you so you can tweak if needed


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## stalagmike (21 May 2019)

See how you go if you get out for a ride tomorrow, but looking at your new set up, I still think your saddle is a bit high. Why not do it the old school way and set it so that you can only just get your tip toes on the ground when seated on the saddle. Forget about the pedals etc. Do this with the bike on level ground and not on the trainer of course!


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## gazza81 (21 May 2019)

stalagmike said:


> See how you go if you get out for a ride tomorrow, but looking at your new set up, I still think your saddle is a bit high. Why not do it the old school way and set it so that you can only just get your tip toes on the ground when seated on the saddle. Forget about the pedals etc. Do this with the bike on level ground and not on the trainer of course!



Yeah ive tried this too, my toes can touch the floor without stretching, not as far as the ball of my foot but also not literally the end of my toes


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## vickster (21 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Yeah ive tried this too, my toes can touch the floor without stretching, not as far as the ball of my foot but also not literally the end of my toes


Go ride it and see how you get on...you should be doing all this sizing stuff in your padded shorts not your jeans or joggers unless that's how you plan to ride the new bike. Padded shorts by their very nature will lift you a little higher too off course


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## gazza81 (21 May 2019)

I had my padded shorts on under my joggers

Every method of seat height I look into it's a little bit lower than recommended

Last couple of times my knee started hurting quite deep into the ride and I'm worried that I'm going to get stranded and have to walk 20 miles home lol


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## vickster (21 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> I had my padded shorts on under my joggers
> 
> Every method of seat height I look into it's a little bit lower than recommended
> 
> Last couple of times my knee started hurting quite deep into the ride and I'm worried that I'm going to get stranded and have to walk 20 miles home lol


If that happens just tweak the saddle height

It won;t be helping that you ride distances on trainers, have a stop every 30 minutes or so...maybe look into getting clipless if you plan to go further...I find with my feet stable, my knees move in a better plane too


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## gazza81 (21 May 2019)

I have been thinking about getting some SPD pedals the last couple of days

I just feel like it's more faff, something else I've got to try and set up correctly


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## jowwy (23 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Right new bike, set up correctly i hope!
> 
> Seat hight is alot lower than on the previous bike
> 
> ...



i still think its a bit too high........its better to be too low, than too high


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## gazza81 (23 May 2019)

jowwy said:


> i still think its a bit too high........its better to be too low, than too high



Its on the last height marking line on the seat post!
If i lower it another 1cm should i really be lowering the bars too?


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## vickster (23 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Its on the last height marking line on the seat post!
> If i lower it another 1cm should i really be lowering the bars too?


Is the bike the wrong size again? Or do you have rather short legs for your height?

Why would you need to lower the bars if your reach and position are comfortable 

Didn't you pay for a bike fit?


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## gazza81 (23 May 2019)

The bike is the right size.

I dont have short legs no, 5 11 32" leg

I did pay for a bike fit on the last bike but everyone said that it looked completely wrong so im not gonna pay for another bike fit.

Tbh its starting to seem more hassle than its worth


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## vickster (23 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> The bike is the right size.
> 
> I dont have short legs no, 5 11 32" leg
> 
> ...


What is?

Have you ridden the new bike yet?

If the last bike fit was rubbish, maybe they’ll do a deal on the new bike if you think they have any idea?


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## gazza81 (23 May 2019)

Yeah ive been out on it but not far, 10 miles at a time. 
Worried about my knee playing up and getting stranded!

Its a hr drive to where i got the last fit, they only do monday to friday and im not wasting holiday from work to do it when the first one was rubbish.

Just seems so much hassle trying to get comfortable on a road bike, ive got 30miles planned this weekend so ill see how it goes.

If i get problems again im not really sure what im gonna do next, i do know im not spending any more money on bike fits, smaller bars, stems etc

Ive spent a fortune trying to find a comfortable ride


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## vickster (23 May 2019)

Have you ever had knee problems before? Perhaps the cycling is stirring things up


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## gazza81 (24 May 2019)

I had meniscus surgery on my right knee a few yrs ago but its my left knee thats been hurting.

Im sure its to do with the bike fit as its the only time it hurts.
I do kettlebell stuff and have no problems.

Hopefully ive just strained something.


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## vickster (24 May 2019)

If it’s directly bike related, it seems odd that it’s only one knee and bad enough to force you off the bike mid ride?


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## gazza81 (24 May 2019)

Yeah only left knee, and defo couldn't carry on riding once it starts.
I can walk ok just not sit and spin thats when it got bad


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## Crackle (24 May 2019)

You look better on the new bike. You're going to have to try a longer ride and see. But, if you have strained anything from earlier it might need time to settle. You say you've done 10 miles which is encouraging, it tends to suggest you haven't or you'd feel it. so go out, ease back a bit and ride.


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## gazza81 (25 May 2019)

Well just done 24 miles, felt really good untill 19/20 miles then the pain started.

Starts outside top of calf area then spreads to outside back of knee.
I feel it most at the bottom of the down stroke

I really dont think my seat is too high.

It seemed to help if i concentrated on pointing my toes downwards for some reason


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## Crackle (25 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Well just done 24 miles, felt really good untill 19/20 miles then the pain started.
> 
> Starts outside top of calf area then spreads to outside back of knee.
> I feel it most at the bottom of the down stroke
> ...


I think a few of us commented on your pointed toes. If you walk around on your toes in the house it won't take long to feel it in your calfs. I think you may have identified the problem, which is pedalling style. You may have to concentrate to change it and I wonder if going clipless will help you keep your foot flatter. it may now be worth going back to your bike fitter to ask if he can solve this problem. I think clipless or putting your seat quite obviously too low, or both, concentrating on keeping your feet flat until you adapt and then slowly raising the saddle back could work as a plan. Keep your rides short while you do.


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## gazza81 (25 May 2019)

It was the other way round, pointing my toes down seemed to help my knee slightly!


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## vickster (25 May 2019)

ITB and calves over tight?


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## Crackle (25 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> It was the other way round, pointing my toes down seemed to help my knee slightly!


So it was! Hah. So much for my reading skills. I still think that could be the answer though. Simply adjusting your toes may just have taken the strain from one area briefly. Which shows the affect of such a change. I think experimenting with this and doing some stretching and massaging of your calfs might well be the answer. I think you've more or less proven that bike setup is having a minimal effect, so the answer has to lie elsewhere.


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## gazza81 (25 May 2019)

Possibly, but i do stretch 2 to 3 times a week so id like to think not.

It feels ok now im home, its weird.
I felt really good and strong, bike felt really good then all of a sudden i notice i slight twinge and then it starts.

Its ok on flats but a slight incline and spinning my legs thats when it hurst the most.


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## Crackle (25 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Possibly, but i do stretch 2 to 3 times a week so id like to think not.
> 
> It feels ok now im home, its weird.
> I felt really good and strong, bike felt really good then all of a sudden i notice i slight twinge and then it starts.
> ...


I think it's one of those things that you may need to try several things before you get to the bottom of. As an example, I started back this April from Patella Tendonitis. I just started on the turbo and after 2 sessions I had some pain in my right leg above my ankle which was completely random. The next time I got on the turbo I paid some attention to what I was doing and I realized I'd been pedalling unevenly, slightly toe down and when I did I could feel it. As soon as I flattened my foot, the pain went. Not completely. Several weeks later and that area is still slightly tender, just from two 20 minute sessions.


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## gazza81 (25 May 2019)

Yeah im starting to think you might be right, pedaling technique.

The bike definitely feels better than the btwin though, much more control over it and less twitchy so thats one positive i guess.


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## vickster (25 May 2019)

gazza81 said:


> Yeah im starting to think you might be right, pedaling technique.
> 
> The bike definitely feels better than the btwin though, much more control over it and less twitchy so thats one positive i guess.


If you do want to get sorted, get a bike assessment from a physio. Who can check you over and assess your position on the bike, not an Evans salesman. Usually costs around a ton
E.g. In Sevenoaks http://www.sevenoaksphysiotherapy.co.uk/bike-screen

Oh and you'll need to stretch every day, twice a day if possible especially if you have a sedentary job which is a killer for muscle length and flexibility...tedious for sure


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## gazza81 (25 May 2019)

Thanks for that i will look into it when i have some money again lol

Im trying to move my leg/ankle in different ways to replicate the pain, if i know what angle causes pain i can avoid it but no matter what i do i dont feel anything untill im peddling!

That physio thing is £120 for 1hr 15min... i wont be booking that any time soon, maybe when i win the lotto
Takes me a day to earn that!


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## jowwy (29 May 2019)

Keep lowering the saddle in 5mm increments until you no longer feel the pain....it really is that simple

Take the Alan keys out with you and ride until you start feeling the pain, when that happens jump over lower the saddle and then get back on and ride.......if it eases, then drop it another 5mm as not every day is a good day


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