# Broccoli head from Spain priced 20p in supermarket.



## Pat "5mph" (12 Apr 2022)

As per title, how is it possible that a good sized head of Broccoli comes all the way from Spain, is then packed in clingfilm in Leeds (info on label), then sold in a Glasgow Asda for 20p each.
Not on special offer, not short dated, lots of stock on view.
How is this possible? @mudsticks?
Should consumers buy this and similar priced veg?
I don't mean ethically, or we would well be in NACA territory, but health wise, should we eat this?
I have just eaten one whole head lol, even though I have sprouting broccoli in my garden.
Have those veg been pesticided till they morphed from potatoes to broccoli?


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## Chris S (12 Apr 2022)

Perhaps the wholesaler has a surplus and wants to get rid of them before they go off?


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Apr 2022)

Chris S said:


> Perhaps the wholesaler has a surplus and wants to get rid of them before they go off?


Yes, it could be.
They are dated bb April 16th.


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## Cycleops (12 Apr 2022)

A quick google reveals that *Spain has the second largest proportion of land devoted to agricultural purposes*, only behind France. The climate and soil is conducive to production. It also produces fruit crops include apples, apricots, bananas, pears, peaches, and plums. It also produces (especially ) tomatoes onions and potatoes as well as nuts (almonds).
Spains agriculture minister has stated that Spain is the ‘vegetable basket of Europe’.
Production must be high so perhaps there was a surplus of broccoli? The supermarket were offered a ‘deal’ and passed the savings on?
As for health wise it would seem to be something that’s very beneficial to eat. One cup of broccoli has as much vitamin C as an orange. Also contains fibre.

Seems it’s a bit of a ‘super food’, although my hair is past help:


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## mudsticks (12 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> As per title, how is it possible that a good sized head of Broccoli comes all the way from Spain, is then packed in clingfilm in Leeds (info on label), then sold in a Glasgow Asda for 20p each.
> Not on special offer, not short dated, lots of stock on view.
> How is this possible? @mudsticks?
> Should consumers buy this and similar priced veg?
> ...


How is it possible.??

All sorts of hidden, externalised, and written off costs, human and environmental, but like you say that's verboten NACA.

If you grow your own you know the time and effort involved in growing food.

Health-wise for yourself well who knows, it's probs OK , but not a patch nutrition wise on your own psb.

It's calabrese from Spain which if non organic will have been sprayed, how many times, and with what is uncertain.


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## gbb (12 Apr 2022)

As far as the pesticides go, if...the big if, it came from reputable sources, certainly with our grape and citrus fruit, it will have to have been treated only with specific chemicals, declared, documented etc etc, its a very carefullly controlled process, backed up with random external analysis. 
Spainish food chain suppliers are extraordinarily canny, agressive in business, have very good transport systems, our company is looking to have a billion pound turnover next year, its a voracious animal that already supplies most of the major supermarkets, they will move into veg, stone fruit, exotic fruit and so on. They pour a lot of money into research, new varieties, improving varieties, its a huge huge buisness the Spanish are very good at.
The negative sides ?....cheap labour from North Africa. Mind we (Europe and the UK) did the same with East Europeans, Cyprus does the same with Syrians and !Lebanese, ive seen the sheds full of matresses they used to have for them behind packhouses. I gather conditions are not favourable for those in Spain.
Pollution, mile after mile of poly film that everntually goes to landfill if its lucky. Drive past those farms, you wont see any land for mile after mile. Sterile, completely useless to wildlife.
Wages, i thought mid 2000s we in the UK were poorly paid in the food industry, a visit to a Spanish packhouse soon told me their wages were lower, They also seem to have a poor attitude to workers in general, hire and fire in an instant, they dont seem to value people at all.


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## mudsticks (12 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> As far as the pesticides go, if...the big if, it came from reputable sources, certainly with our grape and citrus fruit, it will have to have been treated only with specific chemicals, declared, documented etc etc, its a very carefullly controlled process, backed up with random external analysis.
> Spainish food chain suppliers are extraordinarily canny, agressive in business, have very good transport systems, our company is looking to have a billion pound turnover next year, its a voracious animal that already supplies most of the major supermarkets, they will move into veg, stone fruit, exotic fruit and so on. They pour a lot of money into research, new varieties, improving varieties, its a huge huge buisness the Spanish are very good at.
> The negative sides ?....cheap labour from North Africa. Mind we (Europe and the UK) did the same with East Europeans, Cyprus does the same with Syrians and !Lebanese, ive seen the sheds full of matresses they used to have for them behind packhouses. I gather conditions are not favourable for those in Spain.
> Pollution, mile after mile of poly film that everntually goes to landfill if its lucky. Drive past those farms, you wont see any land for mile after mile. Sterile, completely useless to wildlife.
> Wages, i thought mid 2000s we in the UK were poorly paid in the food industry, a visit to a Spanish packhouse soon told me their wages were lower, They also seem to have a poor attitude to workers in general, hire and fire in an instant, they dont seem to value people at all.



All very true and more so.

What I'd like to know is how come you can say all this .

But if I did it would be all too political and very much 'not allowed'

Funny old world innit.. ??


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## Oldhippy (12 Apr 2022)

The absolute lunacy of modern economics and as @mudsticks points out the disregard of so many other factors that really should matter to us all.


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## gbb (12 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> All very true and more so.
> 
> What I'd like to know is how come you can say all this .
> 
> ...


Probably because I didn't make it political ! Its just reality (as I see it)


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## mudsticks (12 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> Probably because I didn't make it political ! Its just reality (as I see it)



Well yes poor wages, dodgy labour conditions, and harm done to the environment are indeed a reality, and they are also political.

It's almost as if the two are inextricably linked isn't it...


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## Cycleops (12 Apr 2022)

Just don't mention the CAP.


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## slowmotion (12 Apr 2022)

Cycleops said:


> As for health wise it would seem to be something that’s very beneficial to eat. One cup of broccoli has as much vitamin C as an orange. Also contains fibre.
> 
> Seems it’s a bit of a ‘super food’, although my hair is past help:
> 
> View attachment 639656


Possibly all true, but it tastes vile.


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## Cycleops (12 Apr 2022)

slowmotion said:


> Possibly all true, but it tastes vile.


Bet you were easy to please as a child


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## slowmotion (12 Apr 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Bet you were easy to please as a child


Sensibly, broccoli wasn't widely available in my childhood. As I grew up, I learned to reject vile trendy vegetables.


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## mudsticks (12 Apr 2022)

Hey @Pat "5mph" 
Have you tried 'roasting' your garden grown PSB?

Massage some nice olive or sesame or whatever oil into whole florets with a bit of salt, then roast in the oven like you do with other veg .
It goes all sweet and crunchy but also chewy .

Don't know if it would work with Spanish broccoli /calabrese..

PSB is still one of my spring favourites , my grandpa grew lots of it, on his allotment, and I'd just go out and graze on it raw, like a strange goat /child hybrid... 

Never got any less odder over the years ...


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## gbb (12 Apr 2022)

There's also how the businesses are integrated and support each other. Ultimately, the fruit we pack is grown by the same company we work for, same with flowers. There's no middle men, its controlled from the farm to the supermarket by one company, Spanish. The farms have a guaranteed and reliable outlet, the packers have a guaranteed and reliable source, its very simple, very clever and very very large. A company thats spent £20 million on our factory 5 years ago, £30 million on one 15 miles away 2 years ago and is now spending over £40 million on another near ours shows how much money is in the business. Most if not all the independent packhouses have gone, economy of scale, bigger is better, the volume of product that goes through these places is immense, with that comes cheaper production costs.
Its not better of course, its sweeping everything aside, but again, for better or worse, thats the reality.


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## KnittyNorah (12 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Hey @Pat "5mph"
> Have you tried 'roasting' your garden grown PSB?
> 
> Massage some nice olive or sesame or whatever oil into whole florets with a bit of salt, then roast in the oven like you do with other veg .
> ...


My dad grew white sprouting broccoli but wondered why it was always a much poorer crop than the purple - I knew why, I and my cousins used to eat it raw ... 
And yes, roasted calabrese, especially brushed with a bit of virgin olive or a nut oil, is a delicious way to eat it. To save on oven usage, I'll par-steam/par-boil/par-nuke it then shake about in oil and a bit of salt, and stick it under the grill for a bit - _almost_ as good and a great deal quicker and usually more economical than using the oven.


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## gbb (13 Apr 2022)

Then theres the efficiencies that have grown within these companies, reducing either short term or long term cost.
At the moment, 'residency' or the time fruit spent within the building is very low. Often stuff is packed on the day its unloaded from Spain, and on its way out to depot sometimes the same day. The need for large storage areas and incredibly expensive refrigeration is massively reduced, result, a cheaper product.
These mega buildings you see nowadays, ours was opened 5 years ago to serve a (you could say the) high end supermarket chain....with the intention of getting other business moving forward.
Now we supply that supermarket, 2 online retailers, 2 other household name supermarkets, all from one factory, and it will march inexorably on. Economy of scale, all this reduces cost.
The list goes on and on, its a completely different industry to 20 years ago.


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## newfhouse (13 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> All very true and more so.
> 
> What I'd like to know is how come you can say all this .
> 
> ...


Pointing and looking is fine. Calling for change, not so much.


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## mudsticks (13 Apr 2022)

newfhouse said:


> Pointing and looking is fine. Calling for change, not so much.



Yes I know dear 

We must be compliant and accepting, not question anything, it's for the best in the long run.. 

Until it isn't..


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## Pat "5mph" (13 Apr 2022)

Thank you so much @gbb for the info, that was exactly what I wanted to know.



newfhouse said:


> Pointing and looking is fine. Calling for change, not so much.





mudsticks said:


> Yes I know dear
> 
> We must be compliant and accepting, not question anything, it's for the best in the long run..
> 
> Until it isn't..


You can call for a change, over in NACA. 
"We must, etc." is irrelevant here: I asked the questions because I don't know much about industrial veg growing.
I was interested in the economics and in the nutritional value of the product.
Certainly, the taste of my home grown is better, fresher for a start, but that was a given.
I won't be buying similar again: @gbb's description of the sterile fields covered in plastic is now with me forever.
I feel bad enough when I use plastic in my own veg growing, at least I reuse it next season.
@gbb when you say you now supply a high end supermarket chain, do you mean it's the same broccoli just priced more at the consumer end?
I remember years ago going to a fish training course for a major supermarket. The fish factory in Grimsby was packing the same product for different outlets, different labels, different prices, same fish.
Is it the same for veg?


@mudsticks if you open a socio/economic/political thread over in NACA about the cheapness (or not) of food, I'll contribute with my views, let me know on here because I don't read that forum often, I need to make myself a log in first


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## gbb (13 Apr 2022)

Its complicated Pat. Different retailers all want the best but dont neccessarily want to pay the premium. The premium isnt soley based on the product, there is some crossover occasionally but generally, specific fruit, sizes, quality, variety is brought to meet specific retailers specs. Specifications are written in stone, very little deviation is allowed. The company will have different teams, commercial, technical etc for different customers. Specifications are rigid but quality may vary, some defect acceptable for one customer...definately not for another. 
Where a high end retailer may differ from a 'budget' one is not soley the product you supply but also the conditions you supply from, workplace standards (this is a huge thing in itself, cleaning standards, toilets, canteen facilities etc etc etc), ethical sourcing, environmental policies, the companies policy on modern slavery, do you have support for staff, a high end customer demands all these are met, its their name at risk if it all goes wrong. The more elevated the retailer, the higher the standards. The retailer has to pay for those standards to be met so inevitably, the cost is higher.
It seems to me the system now is its joined up top to bottom, retailer to farm. The grower knows exactly whats expected, cannot deviate too much. The packer recieves pretty much exactly whats required, theres normally minimal waste bacause the product recieved already meets spec, turnaround is very fast, waste minimised, profit maximised.. The retailer and supplier work very closely, everyone benefits.

But volume is the driver, packing 20 boxes of this, 200 boxes of that doesnt make money, its thousands of boxes per order, long runs are the real key.

This is in stark contrast go a former company 20 years ago. They would buy a crop and make it fit the customers requirements. They would over buy because they didnt work with the retailer so closely so there could be lots and lots of waste, more cost. Equally, if other suppliers ran short at the end of a season, our company had fruit, albeit a bit aged, available. It was a lottery, sometimes they reaped huge profits, sometimes lost. Sometimes theyd hit the growers financially if the crop didnt hold up, sometimes hit the shippers if it wasnt stored correctly and arrived below par, it was a dog eat dog kind of thing


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## Stephenite (13 Apr 2022)

Here, in the supermarket in Norway. A head of broccoli from Spain costs £1.60 !


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## FishFright (13 Apr 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Just don't mention the CAP.



Oh you and your rose tinted spectacles


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## mudsticks (14 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Thank you so much @gbb for the info, that was exactly what I wanted to know.
> 
> You can call for a change, over in NACA.
> "We must, etc." is irrelevant here: I asked the questions because I don't know much about industrial veg growing.
> ...


OK, will give you a shout (here) if such a thread arises @Pat "5mph"

'The food system'

The how's and whys and realities of 'cheapness' and the 'true cost' of it all is a fiendishly complicated subject, it already exercises many a mind..

From farm to fork

Having been involved in both the practical and political aspects of it all for decades it's good to see more people waking up to some of the realities though - knowledge is power etc etc.

Pretty sure that cut price broccoli wouldn't do you personally so much harm.

But as gbb has outlined there are reasons for it being so very 'cheap' - someone or something somewhere else has paid a hidden price already. 

Meanwhile I'd better go grow some more - - to be sold at a _fair_ price of course


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Apr 2022)

Because it tastes disgusting and no one wants to buy it.


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## Alex321 (14 Apr 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Because it tastes disgusting and no one wants to buy it.


The first is your personal opinion, and we all have different tastes.

The second is clearly false. If no one wanted to buy iy, then it simply wouldn't be in the supermarkets. They aren't in the business of selling things nobody wants to buy.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Apr 2022)

Alex321 said:


> The first is your personal opinion,



Scientifically proven


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## icowden (14 Apr 2022)

Stephenite said:


> Here, in the supermarket in Norway. A head of broccoli from Spain costs £1.60 !


Yeah - Norway has this weird policy of ensuring that Norwegian farmers produce is cheaper than imported thus protecting their farmers. Those Norwegians and their crazy ideas!!!


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## matticus (14 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Yeah - Norway has this weird policy of ensuring that Norwegian farmers produce is cheaper than imported thus protecting their farmers. Those Norwegians and their crazy ideas!!!


I don't claim to know who invented it, but that idea has been around quite a long time!


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## icowden (14 Apr 2022)

matticus said:


> I don't claim to know who invented it, but that idea has been around quite a long time!


Yes. Very popular in Scandinavian countries, not so much in the UK.


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## Alex321 (14 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Yes. Very popular in Scandinavian countries, not so much in the UK.


It is called protectionism, and while there are arguments in favour, there are also arguments against, and it is illegal within the EU.


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## icowden (14 Apr 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is called protectionism, and while there are arguments in favour, there are also arguments against, and it is illegal within the EU.


We aren't in the EU.


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## mudsticks (14 Apr 2022)

Alex321 said:


> It is called protectionism, and while there are arguments in favour, there are also arguments against, and it is illegal within the EU.


Except EU farmers _are_ 'protected' under the CAP.
And are rewarded via area payments,for adhering to minimum standards* on production values.

Outside of the CAP , with global trade 'deals' UK farmers are not protected from lower standard imports .

But still if they wish to sell into the EU , they have to meet those minimum standards, but no longer enjoy frictionless trade..

Oh well...


*We could argue those 'minimum' standards within the EU could be higher, but that would be verging on politics.

Otherwise the rest is just 'facts' which we've established are allowed here -  .


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## Stephenite (14 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> Yeah - Norway has this weird policy of ensuring that Norwegian farmers produce is cheaper than imported thus protecting their farmers. Those Norwegians and their crazy ideas!!!


A policy I support. It’s just that, even after living here twenty years, I get surprised at how much things cost when I convert to “real” money.


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## gbb (14 Apr 2022)

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...rias-environmental-and-humanitarian-disaster/
I've driven past areas like this, its staggering how much plastic must be used. The article doesn't paint a pretty picture


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## Pat "5mph" (14 Apr 2022)

Thank you again @gbb for the expanded info in your last post.
I was back in Asda today: it's on my route home from work, I tend to go every few days.
Depending on how much space I have in my panniers, sometimes I can only pick up a couple of items.
Anyhow, the sea of 20p Spanish broccoli was broken up by a lake of 20p Scottish carrots (I would say about a kg in weight, forgot to check) and by another lake of 20p British parsnips.
Both carrots and parsnips were freshly washed and packaged in plastic.
I think they must be last season's stock, I can understand local farmers wanting rid, but surely the transport and packaging must cost more than 20p for a kg.
I suppose, better a little money for the farmer than the produce going to landfill, which would cost the farmer anyway.
My new season carrots and parsnips have already germinated 



gbb said:


> This is in stark contrast go a former company 20 years ago. They would buy a crop and make it fit the customers requirements.


I remember, when I came to the UK 35 years ago, there was only (British) seasonal produce in the supermarket. To buy a head of garlic you had to go to an Italian or Greek delicatessen.
In Scotland that was, I know London as always been more cosmopolitan.
With the start of cheap travel abroad in the 90s, I think the consumers were ready for a more varied food produce availability.
I was very surprised, though, when everything started to appear in supermarkets visually uniform, unblemished, already washed.
Totally different from a continental veg market: somehow, the British consumer is now expecting perfectly shaped veg, all the same size and weight - and clean!



Ming the Merciless said:


> Because it tastes disgusting and no one wants to buy it.


To be honest, I was very surprised too. Here in Scotland we are famous for not eating our veg, mainly because they are traditionally boiled to death 


gbb said:


> https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-...rias-environmental-and-humanitarian-disaster/
> I've driven past areas like this, its staggering how much plastic must be used. The article doesn't paint a pretty picture


Before reading this article, I wouldn't have thought that a country with a climate like Spain needs a lot of greenhouse space.
The article doesn't specify if also brassicas are grown under plastic: I know mine bolt at the minimum rise of temperatures, so do my spinach and lettuce.
Is the plastic needed to keep pests away, maybe?
The more I look into this, the less I'm inclined to buy 20p veg again, unless they are on yellow sticker at the end of the trading day


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## KnittyNorah (14 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I remember, when I came to the UK 35 years ago, there was only (British) seasonal produce in the supermarket. To buy a head of garlic you had to go to an Italian or Greek delicatessen.


When I left home to go to university, more than 50 years ago, I was SHOCKED beyond all of my expectations, when I went to an ordinary greengrocer (no such thing as supermarkets then! Well, maybe in London ...) to find that they didn't have peppers, garlic, fresh herbs(other than curly parsley) or ... loads of things ... 

I soon found the Chinese shops in Manchester - same with the Italian and Indian shops.

All things which my dad grew (obviously not the same varieties as dad grew but still) in his allotment and greenhouse in a northwest England hill village, which my mum cooked and which we as a family enjoyed eating. Mind you we were the first people in the village - other than the butcher, the fishmonger and the people at the 'big house' - to have a fridge and I think we had an actual freezer before any of them, for my dad's produce. STILL can only rarely get some of the veggies and soft fruits my dad grew and that I still enjoy - thank goodness for Booth's here in the northwest.


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## theclaud (14 Apr 2022)

Broccoli is politics, Pat, as you seem to be discovering. Maybe explain that to Shaun, when you have a minute.


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## gbb (14 Apr 2022)

The promotions (20p carrots, parsnips etc) ...it seems to me they started mid 2000s with Aldi, At a former packhouse, they'd pack apples and citrus for what seemed like silly prices during these supermarket led promotions, maybe 3 or 4 times a year. You had no choice as a supplier, they were or became part and parcel of doing business with them. When we asked the management how we did it for those silly prices, the answer was...you couldnt, you (the supplier) effectively lost money, you paid the price, the supermarket got the glory.
I assume the volume sales over the year kept the supplier going, the promotions were a neccessary evil, i remember they used to make us very very busy...making very little or nothing each promotion.
Its a tough world out there as an independant packer...but as said, i suspect there arent many out there anymore.
I think Asda have their own packhouses but dont know how their supply chain from the farms work so how it worked mid 2000s may not be the case now, equally, it might be.


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## gbb (14 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I was very surprised, though, when everything started to appear in supermarkets visually uniform, unblemished, already washed.
> Totally different from a continental veg market: somehow, the British consumer is now expecting perfectly shaped veg, all the same size and weight - and clean!


This is one difficult to disentangle. I used to work regularly in Cyprus on a citrus farm. They used to complain bitterly about our never ending demands on visual quality, blemishes, scars etc. No-one likes to supply the British market a senior member of this farm personally told me, no-one else in the world is so fussy.
Is it British public driven, or is it the supermarkets being over zealous. Im sure the supermarkets would plead its what the public demand...but i dont buy it.
After our company went bust, that farm happily sold its entire crops to Russia. Prompt payers (something the British are known to be) and far less rigorous ib the quality standards.
Pereonally i couldnt care less if my veg is cleaned, lightly damaged, scarred, anything less than perfect. If it'll cut out, wash out, its good enough for me.


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## mudsticks (14 Apr 2022)

@Pat "5mph"
many crops are grown under under plastic in Spain to extend the season in both directions, make pest control, climate and irrigation easier, and to protect crops from rain splash for that 'perfect' look which as you say the UK customer in particular seems to demand .

Although produce that goes through a packhouse, multiple transfers via refrigerated lorries, and longer chain logistics will need to fit uniformly into punnets and packaging, and have a long shelf life.. .

Often leading to a lot of waste.

Footling considerations such as nutrition, or flavour, come far down the lust.

I'm just about to send the last 100kg of carrots off to a place that can redistribute them via a sort of food bank that can deal with surpluses of fresh produce

I'm lucky enough to have the kind of soil where I can overwinter all my roots in situ
Beetroot parsnip celeriac and carrots.
Glad I don't have to lift all that tonnage and store it inside.

Sugar snap peas in polytunnels are just starting to flower here should be ready to harvest in about three weeks. 

With polytunnels I can supply all year round 


Food production, who grows it and how, who gets the profit, who gets paid properly, who doesn't, can't help but be political 
.
On average only 8p of the supermarket shelf price gets back to the primary producer.
That's not sustainable.

Many can't be expected to keep going like that..

Smaller agroecological farms like mine can make it pay generally by selling direct.
And by growing a wider variety of crops..
About 50+ here..

Working conditions, environmental consequences, nutrition, food justice and security, climate effects, ..

It's a big ol' subject .

Happy Easter anyhow..
Really getting into eggy bread for farm lunches atm


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## gbb (15 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> When I left home to go to university, more than 50 years ago, I was SHOCKED beyond all of my expectations, when I went to an ordinary greengrocer (no such thing as supermarkets then! Well, maybe in London ...) to find that they didn't have peppers, garlic, fresh herbs(other than curly parsley) or ... loads of things ...
> 
> I soon found the Chinese shops in Manchester - same with the Italian and Indian shops.
> 
> All things which my dad grew (obviously not the same varieties as dad grew but still) in his allotment and greenhouse in a northwest England hill village, which my mum cooked and which we as a family enjoyed eating. Mind you we were the first people in the village - other than the butcher, the fishmonger and the people at the 'big house' - to have a fridge and I think we had an actual freezer before any of them, for my dad's produce. STILL can only rarely get some of the veggies and soft fruits my dad grew and that I still enjoy - thank goodness for Booth's here in the northwest.


I suspect we were very limited in expectation and need say 40/50 years ago. The vast vast majority of people never travelled...it says a lot when a Vesta curry was seen as something exotic...and we did consider it exotic , us that had no former access to chili's, pepper, noodles etc etc.
If I think back to my childhood in the 1960s and 70s, grapes and oranges were available but that was about it . I assume they were shipped in.

As aside subject, what astounds me is how people haven't cottoned on the environmental impact of the flowers available at supermarkets, a huge amount are flown in from Africa and South America, the carbon footprint must be enormous.


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## mudsticks (15 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> I suspect we were very limited in expectation and need say 40/50 years ago. The vast vast majority of people never travelled...it says a lot when a Vesta curry was seen as something exotic...and we did consider it exotic , us that had no former access to chili's, pepper, noodles etc etc.
> If I think back to my childhood in the 1960s and 70s, grapes and oranges were available but that was about it . I assume they were shipped in.
> 
> As aside subject, what astounds me is how people haven't cottoned on the environmental impact of the flowers available at supermarkets, a huge amount are flown in from Africa and South America, the carbon footprint must be enormous.



I've noticed a big upsurge in interest eating more seasonally over the last few years.
It's no longer seen as just a niche obsession for middle class hippies. 

And there's lots of youngsters keen to enter the trade, I train quite a few here, but opportunities to get started are scarce. 

We could grow far more of our own fresh produce though.. Even the more 'exotic' stuff, just not expect it all, all of the time.
Garlic for example does fine here. 
And my avatar is mine own produce 

And there's a much greater awareness of problems caused by flown in produce grown at scale on other peoples soil, where labour conditions and safety regs are poor. 

Fertile ground in hungry countries is being used to grow temporary decorations, and non essential food for our tables here .
Using substantial quantities of chemical inputs in industrialised systems, with all the environmental consequences alongside.. 

Of course these issues are not really drawn attention to to by the large retailers.

But in our 'information' age there's not much excuse for not knowing about these things. 
Perhaps some people would rather not know??


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## gbb (15 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> I've noticed a big upsurge in interest eating more seasonally over the last few years.
> It's no longer seen as just a niche obsession for middle class hippies.
> 
> And there's lots of youngsters keen to enter the trade, I train quite a few here, but opportunities to get started are scarce.
> ...


I think its the human condition, you only have to look around average urban estates now, few people seem to care about their own environment! Why would they care about anyone else's? Look at the low level fly tipping, its like no--one can be bothered to do the simple stuff. See our local junior school, the playground looks like a rubbish tip after a weekend, crisp packets, cake packets, cups, bottles strewn all over. Schools seem reluctant to encourage kids to do litter pick, if you cant encourage children to care, you're lost in 20 years time.
It seems to me we (society in general) have become remarkably selfish in this country.


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## mudsticks (15 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> I think its the human condition, you only have to look around average urban estates now, few people seem to care about their own environment! Why would they care about anyone else's? Look at the low level fly tipping, its like no--one can be bothered to do the simple stuff. See our local junior school, the playground looks like a rubbish tip after a weekend, crisp packets, cake packets, cups, bottles strewn all over. Schools seem reluctant to encourage kids to do litter pick, if you cant encourage children to care, you're lost in 20 years time.
> It seems to me we (society in general) have become remarkably selfish in this country.



Well yes there are problems in certain areas for sure, neglect and deprivation.
.
But it's not all doom and gloom 
And it's not that _no one_ cares, it's just that _some_ dont..
That's always been the case though.

There are many youngsters taking a lead on these things too , very aware and proactive , doing their bit, where they can. 

Look at all the kids concerned about, and campaigning on climate change, even in the face of the 'grown-ups' ignoring or denying it all. 

It's a culture thing, which we can all help with (or hinder) by encouraging, or discouraging.

Certainly isn't fair to blame it on 'the youth of today' ..
Who brought them up, and showed them the way .??


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## Arrowfoot (15 Apr 2022)

If it came from the EU, entered UK and retails in ASDA, it is likely to be kosher. ASDA business models have buyers that seem to sniff opportunities well better than others. 

Sometimes it seasonality, glut or a cancelled order and they are perishables. What I can reasonably expect is the price will not remain as such for long. 

I think we will end up in the World of conspiracy theories if we let the mind wonder.


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## mudsticks (15 Apr 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> If it came from the EU, entered UK and retails in ASDA, it is likely to be kosher. ASDA business models have buyers that seem to sniff opportunities well better than others.
> 
> Sometimes it seasonality, glut or a cancelled order and they are perishables. What I can reasonably expect is the price will not remain as such for long.
> 
> I think we will end up in the World of conspiracy theories if we let the mind wonder.



There are no 'conspiracy theories' here.

It's just how trade in perishables largely 'works' atm.

It's deliberately set up to be weighted as a buyer's market, once the produce is grown, then suppliers are at the mercy of the multiples, who can cancel contracts or impose price reduction s. 

It's all well documented.

Do we wish that inequitable situation, and the damage it causes to continue??
Thats the question.


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## newfhouse (15 Apr 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> if we let the mind wonder.


Something to be avoided at all costs, obviously.


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## Arrowfoot (15 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> There are no 'conspiracy theories' here.
> 
> It's just how trade in perishables largely 'works' atm.
> 
> ...


Simply stating that the price of 20p is not sustainable. It is good that the trade does not do dumping to hold the price which is common. 

Enjoy it while you can. Great veg btw.


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## Arrowfoot (15 Apr 2022)

newfhouse said:


> Something to be avoided at all costs, obviously.


Not for the simps. It can be dangerous for all around. Just look at Trump's flock.


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## mudsticks (15 Apr 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> Simply stating that the price of 20p is not sustainable. It is good that the trade does not do dumping to hold the price which is common.
> 
> Enjoy it while you can. Great veg btw.


Agree it's not sustainable in many ways..

However, 'enjoy it while you can' is a fairly hollow exhortation for someone for whom growing and marketing veg is a large part of their income.

I sell direct, and my customers value, freshness, flavour, variety, freedom from chemicals, low food miles, and consistency of supply.

In addition to good value ..

But still my prices are somewhat 'pegged' by the supermarket 'offer'.

That price point doesn't include all sorts of externalised costs, to people and environment which are generally unseen by the consumer..


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## BoldonLad (15 Apr 2022)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Thank you again @gbb for the expanded info in your last post.
> I was back in Asda today: it's on my route home from work, I tend to go every few days.
> Depending on how much space I have in my panniers, sometimes I can only pick up a couple of items.
> Anyhow, the sea of 20p Spanish broccoli was broken up by a lake of 20p Scottish carrots (I would say about a kg in weight, forgot to check) and by another lake of 20p British parsnips.
> ...



From my experience, veg in supermarkets in much of mainland Europe, is similarly blemish free and uniform, although, generally, more fresh than in Uk.

Spain May be hot in summer, but, can be surprisingly cold in winter, so, plastic and greenhouses May be to produce produce early?


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## Dogtrousers (15 Apr 2022)

Cycleops said:


> One cup of broccoli has as much vitamin C as an orange. Also contains fibre.


I'm having trouble imagining a cup of broccoli. How would you fit it in? And other questions ....

Btw I love broccoli .... mmmm


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## Cycleops (15 Apr 2022)

I also love broccoli. Can't imagine how anyone could find them unpleasant.


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## theclaud (15 Apr 2022)

Cycleops said:


> I also love broccoli. Can't imagine how anyone could find them unpleasant.


What do you use as the singular form? Broccolo?


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2022)

Today I passed by Aldi, also on my way home from work - I did a half day today 
I found an abundance of carrots, parsnips, something else I forgot but no broccoli, same size packaging as Asda, all produce of GB ... at 19p!
I start to feel for the farmers: as a backyard small scale veg grower myself, I know how much work it takes to get a harvest, even taken in account the milder English climate, milder that Scotland I mean.
Tbh, I was never a great buyer of fruit and veg since moving to Scotland, apart from salad stuff and the usual potatoes and onions.
The reason was (is!) the bland taste compared to the freshly harvested produce abroad I was used to.
Of course I understand that due to our climate produce needs to be imported, harvested unripe because it needs to stay fresh during transport.
Anyway, I have developed a health condition that means I need to eat lots of leafy greens and brassicas, or take calcium supplements. Why taking a pill if you can eat food instead? 
I'm forever searching for nice veg now, need to buy lots because they don't fill me like a carbonara would 
At the same time I was told about my health condition, I was made redundant, so I had more than a year of lockdown to plan our building's communal backyard renovation: I decided I wanted to focus on growing vegetables organically.
I researched it while I was unwell and unemployed to boot lol, and I have decided to follow the no dig method by Charles Dowding and the small plot growing tips by Huw Richards.
They both grow organic veg in a climate similar to mine.
Meantime, I also got volunteering with the local foodbank and with a few other community gardening projects.
This is the background of my interest in commercial veg growing.



theclaud said:


> Broccoli is politics, Pat, as you seem to be discovering. Maybe explain that to Shaun, when you have a minute.


Let's not start this carry on!
Broccoli is economics in this instance.
Granted, economics and politics go hand in hand, but I don't think Conservative broccoli are more ethical or organic than Labour broccoli. Over to NACA with political broccoli, please 


gbb said:


> Is it British public driven, or is it the supermarkets being over zealous. Im sure the supermarkets would plead its what the public demand...but i dont buy it.


I think you are right. I think it's the supermarkets that create the standard of certain goods, then after a while the public demands it, well, as a standard.
Taking, again, veg as an example, surely the elderly buyers must remember the times when you bought a head of lettuce, you had to wash it and chop it.
Yet, I see many elderly shoppers picking bags of chopped, washed salad bags, at a dearer price that a head of lettuce.
Convenience? Habit, availability?
My veg growing hero Charles Dowding often says his farm makes lots of money from salad bags for supermarkets.
He grows tender leafy greens, his workforce goes around each plant daily picking leaves, they mix them, wash them, spin them, bag them.
Picking lettuce leaves one by one so not to kill the plant, for come again produce, is backbreaking work!
Are salad bags ethical? Are they environmentally friendly, all bagged up, with a shorter shelf life than a whole head of lettuce?



mudsticks said:


> I'm lucky enough to have the kind of soil where I can overwinter all my roots in situ


I am going to try this season, not sure if it will work for me, but I'll give it a bash, maybe with carrots, potatoes, parsnips in tubs, covered. I think left in the ground here they would freeze.


mudsticks said:


> Food production, who grows it and how, who gets the profit, who gets paid properly, who doesn't, can't help but be political
> .
> On average only 8p of the supermarket shelf price gets back to the primary producer.
> That's not sustainable.


We are a capitalistic society, no matter who is the political party in government the system will still be driven by profit, imo.
I remember, many years ago I worked for Asda for a while, when it was the cheapest, before Aldi and Lidle came to play on the market.
I remember my colleagues complaining about some benefit reduction that I, as a new start, wasn't getting anyway.
I wanted to say: what do you expect, we shop here because it's cheap, but the biggest cost for a business is the workforce, how do you think they sell so cheap?
Of course, I shut up 
For things to change, the public needs to be aware of the consequences of 20p broccoli.
Like @gbb said, though, will the public care?



mudsticks said:


> But in our 'information' age there's not much excuse for not knowing about these things.
> Perhaps some people would rather not know??


Imo, many people have more pressing issues that affect them personally to care much about a vague idea of fairness for farm workers.
I can say for certain "I will never buy 20p Spanish broccoli again" BUT: I don't have dependants, I choose to work lots of hours so I can choose to buy 90p British broccoli in Tesco and Fair Trade coffee at the Coop.
I am their community champion for my area, get a Coop discount, still Aldi's coffee is cheaper.
But I am lucky I can afford to buy Fair Trade, so I do.
I did attend a Fair Trade zoom once, the producer was asked how can people that are on a budget help Fair Trade?
The producer said "those that can afford it, should buy it"
It seems we need a Veg Fair Trade movement!


gbb said:


> I think its the human condition, you only have to look around average urban estates now, few people seem to care about their own environment! Why would they care about anyone else's?


Sadly, this is true where I live, more some of us clean up, more other people litter.
One time, after a clean up event, someone posted on our FB page "the council should do it"
Nay, the community should not litter, I was going to post, but I didn't 
A nearby community gardening group keeps getting vandalised, their aim is to make the local park look nice.
Often, after they have raised money for a project, it gets vandalized before they can complete it.


mudsticks said:


> And it's not that _no one_ cares, it's just that _some_ dont..


Sadly, it seems lots don't. I guess it's depending on the area one lives in, though.


mudsticks said:


> It's deliberately set up to be weighted as a buyer's market, once the produce is grown, then suppliers are at the mercy of the multiples, who can cancel contracts or impose price reduction s.


Thanks for this info, I didn't know that.


BoldonLad said:


> From my experience, veg in supermarkets in much of mainland Europe, is similarly blemish free and uniform, although, generally, more fresh than in Uk.


I haven't been to mainland Europe for a few years now, before I came to live in the UK I used to food shop at the local open air market.
Before Corona, I went to visit family in Germany: they took me to Aldi, looked just like my local one


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2022)

theclaud said:


> What do you use as the singular form? Broccolo?


Yes, of course: un broccolo, due broccoli


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## theclaud (15 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Let's not start this carry on!
> Broccoli is economics in this instance.
> Granted, economics and politics go hand in hand, but I don't think Conservative broccoli are more ethical or organic than Labour broccoli. Over to NACA with political broccoli, please


I didn't say owt about parties.


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## mudsticks (15 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Today I passed by Aldi, also on my way home from work - I did a half day today
> I found an abundance of carrots, parsnips, something else I forgot but no broccoli, same size packaging as Asda, all produce of GB ... at 19p!
> I start to feel for the farmers: as a backyard small scale veg grower myself, I know how much work it takes to get a harvest, even taken in account the milder English climate, milder that Scotland I mean.
> Tbh, I was never a great buyer of fruit and veg since moving to Scotland, apart from salad stuff and the usual potatoes and onions.
> ...


My younger son has just recently, relocated himself up north to your area.

After growing up eating tonnes of green leafy veg, but largely trying to dodge getting involved in growing any of it..

He's now joined a local guerilla growing group, and has lots of teensy kale and spinach beet plants on his balcony awaiting planting out on an old bit of railway ground .

So if you see a dark haired 'stringbean' surreptitiously gardening greens after dark..
You know who it is...


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## KnittyNorah (15 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> I suspect we were very limited in expectation and need say 40/50 years ago. The vast vast majority of people never travelled...it says a lot when a Vesta curry was seen as something exotic...and we did consider it exotic , us that had no former access to chili's, pepper, noodles etc etc.
> If I think back to my childhood in the 1960s and 70s, grapes and oranges were available but that was about it . I assume they were shipped in.
> 
> As aside subject, what astounds me is how people haven't cottoned on the environmental impact of the flowers available at supermarkets, a huge amount are flown in from Africa and South America, the carbon footprint must be enormous.


Yes, it was only my dad's interest in growing 'different' things and membership of a Europe-wide seed-swapping club which meant that I had a much higher exposure to 'exotic vegetables' than most people in that time. We also used to go on holiday overseas long, long before the 'package holiday' came into being. Not that a cold beach on the North Sea coast was any better in Belgium or Holland than it was in Whitby or Cromer, but it was _different _and so was the food and drink. The fact my dad was a teacher did give us longer to 'play' with than most other people of course so if the car broke down on the autobahn, or something, it wasn't the disaster it could have been. 
I also had my first aeroplane journey when I was about five or six - I can remember bits of it - we flew to the Isle of Man on an old Dakota that had been 'converted' for passenger flights. 
The oranges thing was a ... problem ... in our house. My parents were fervently anti-apartheid and anti-fascist so that meant no oranges from either South Africa or Spain; they were unsure about the Israel/Palestine business _and_ opposed to the McCarthyism rife in the US so no Jaffas or Florida oranges for us either. We did have tangerines at Christmas though, and oranges of some sort or another would make it into the fruit bowl occasionally. Not sure where they came from, though. Bananas from the Windward Islands were preferred - and grapes, especially black grapes, were exclusively bought as gifts for hospital patients. If you got black grapes when in hospital, you knew you were very seriously ill! So it'd mostly be the visitors who ate them. 

The flower thing is interesting - and sad. Not just the carbon footprint but the chemical input into them and the unregulated pesticide exposure of the poor souls who must tend them ...


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## Oldhippy (15 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Yes, it was only my dad's interest in growing 'different' things and membership of a Europe-wide seed-swapping club which meant that I had a much higher exposure to 'exotic vegetables' than most people in that time. We also used to go on holiday overseas long, long before the 'package holiday' came into being. Not that a cold beach on the North Sea coast was any better in Belgium or Holland than it was in Whitby or Cromer, but it was _different _and so was the food and drink. The fact my dad was a teacher did give us longer to 'play' with than most other people of course so if the car broke down on the autobahn, or something, it wasn't the disaster it could have been.
> I also had my first aeroplane journey when I was about five or six - I can remember bits of it - we flew to the Isle of Man on an old Dakota that had been 'converted' for passenger flights.
> The oranges thing was a ... problem ... in our house. My parents were fervently anti-apartheid and anti-fascist so that meant no oranges from either South Africa or Spain; they were unsure about the Israel/Palestine business _and_ opposed to the McCarthyism rife in the US so no Jaffas or Florida oranges for us either. We did have tangerines at Christmas though, and oranges of some sort or another would make it into the fruit bowl occasionally. Not sure where they came from, though. Bananas from the Windward Islands were preferred - and grapes, especially black grapes, were exclusively bought as gifts for hospital patients. If you got black grapes when in hospital, you knew you were very seriously ill! So it'd mostly be the visitors who ate them.
> 
> The flower thing is interesting - and sad. Not just the carbon footprint but the chemical input into them and the unregulated pesticide exposure of the poor souls who must tend them ...


Your parents sound like some of the greatest people Inever met.


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## mudsticks (15 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Yes, it was only my dad's interest in growing 'different' things and membership of a Europe-wide seed-swapping club which meant that I had a much higher exposure to 'exotic vegetables' than most people in that time. We also used to go on holiday overseas long, long before the 'package holiday' came into being. Not that a cold beach on the North Sea coast was any better in Belgium or Holland than it was in Whitby or Cromer, but it was _different _and so was the food and drink. The fact my dad was a teacher did give us longer to 'play' with than most other people of course so if the car broke down on the autobahn, or something, it wasn't the disaster it could have been.
> I also had my first aeroplane journey when I was about five or six - I can remember bits of it - we flew to the Isle of Man on an old Dakota that had been 'converted' for passenger flights.
> The oranges thing was a ... problem ... in our house. My parents were fervently anti-apartheid and anti-fascist so that meant no oranges from either South Africa or Spain; they were unsure about the Israel/Palestine business _and_ opposed to the McCarthyism rife in the US so no Jaffas or Florida oranges for us either. We did have tangerines at Christmas though, and oranges of some sort or another would make it into the fruit bowl occasionally. Not sure where they came from, though. Bananas from the Windward Islands were preferred - and grapes, especially black grapes, were exclusively bought as gifts for hospital patients. If you got black grapes when in hospital, you knew you were very seriously ill! So it'd mostly be the visitors who ate them.
> 
> The flower thing is interesting - and sad. Not just the carbon footprint but the chemical input into them and the unregulated pesticide exposure of the poor souls who must tend them ...


Good times.

I also had an early exposure to the widest possible variety of veg, my grandparents being market growers in the north.

My parents also teachers and we holidayed in the wilder parts of Europe, camping and touring, and visiting local markets for fresh produce, again before it was the 'norm' 

In those days , and still now in some places a low income 'peasant' diet was a tremendous variety of local fresh veg, some simple carbs and precious, delicious, but not that abundant protein in the form of meat and dairy.

Now a 'low income' diet (in Northern Europe) often comprises cheap easy to transport, and store , hyper processed foods, from industrialised systems .

No good for (wom)man nor beast really, but it's what's 'afgordable' when budgets are squeezed in every other way.... 

This year I'm growing some yellow tomatoes from a fellow peasant farmer in Spain , he brought the fruits to our gathering at the COP in Glasgow, last November, I transported one home, extracted the seed, and now the seedlings are about 3" tall in the propagation grernhouse.

No idea what the variety actually is, but I've labelled them Xavier, as that is the chaps name.. 

Will be interesting to see how they turn out..


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## KnittyNorah (15 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Good times.
> 
> I also had an early exposure to the widest possible variety of veg, my grandparents being market growers in the north.
> 
> ...


I have a friend who is German and lived in Mexico for 30-ish years. She worked (she's retired now) for the World Food Programme and was based in Mexico to cover emergencies in Central America, the Caribbean etc etc. Anyway, long story short, she had various ongoing programmes in and around Mexico City for slum-dwellers, especially mothers with children, to grow fresh herbs and veggies to add to the government rations of oil, beans and tortillas, and to sell in the markets. When she started these programmes , she used her own roof as an example of what could be grown in a tiny space at different times of the year and had a buffet-style dinner party for various influential people, using the ration goods and stuff she'd grown herself. ALL of her guests were HORRIFIED at the delicious multi-coloured, differently-shaped, differently-tasting tomatoes that she was serving as part of a salad. ONLY bog standard red tomatoes were acceptable to these folks; they were very wary of even tasting yellow, orange and purple ones, never mind striped ones ... LOL!


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> So if you see a dark haired 'stringbean' surreptitiously gardening greens after dark..
> You know who it is...


Lol @mudstick!
I guess your son, being a uni student, lives in or around the trendy west end.
Tell him there's no need to hide his veg gardening in that area. There are plenty of local community gardening groups, with many veg growing projects on the go, all on social media.
He could even get a part time job at Locavore, they have a mega organic growing area not far out of Glasgow.
He will soon find out that here food growing is challenging.
Last year our last frost was at the end of May, after a sunny, warm April.
Tomatoes without a heated greenhouse or polytunnel are particularly challenging, most years they don't mature to red, because by the time we can put them out to fruit the long days start shortening again.
This year I have started my tomatoes indoors in January.
They are ready to go out now, but I cannot chance it.
If one grows as a hobby, like @KnittyNorah's dad used to, crops like tomatoes, here in Scotland, become very expensive, by the time you buy the protection against the elements.
My little gardening group (we grow for pleasure, but also to share with the community) have spent a fortune of our own money since 2020 transforming local neglected council land into a food growing area.
The council now want to know what we are growing - we are in their radar because I have applied for small grants.
Useless all of them : the "South Lanarshire Food growing liason officer" whatever that means, sent me 4 small balcony planters with assorted seeds that she says "were in season", to get the community growing.
I don't know what season she was referring to, because it was still snowing when she send them to us.
It was also still snowing when she asked for updates on how the growing was doing 
Meantime, I have just ordered a bulk bag of compost, horse manure and woodchips for this season: this veg growing malarkey is as costly as the cycling! 



mudsticks said:


> This year I'm growing some yellow tomatoes from a fellow peasant farmer in Spain , he brought the fruits to our gathering at the COP in Glasgow, last November, I transported one home, extracted the seed, and now the seedlings are about 3" tall in the propagation grernhouse.


Ahem ... I hope your tomatoes have a plant passport 
Friends and I have smuggled plenty of veggy matter through customs: I have a mega Cypriot grapevine growing in my front garden the original plant was an illegal immigrant many years ago 
I don't get grapes from it, the idea was to grow it for the leaves to make stuffed vine leaves (dolmades).
One interesting crop this year will be goji berries. I got a cheap goji on sale somewhere for a couple of pounds, planted it along the back fence, it's thriving.
I don't think I like goji berries, but someone in my network surely will. Apparently it's unusual to get them fresh because they don't keep once off the plant.
I will propagate, barter the new plants


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## KnittyNorah (15 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Lol @mudstick!
> I guess your son, being a uni student, lives in or around the trendy west end.
> Tell him there's no need to hide his veg gardening in that area. There are plenty of local community gardening groups, with many veg growing projects on the go, all on social media.
> He could even get a part time job at Locavore, they have a mega organic growing area not far out of Glasgow.
> ...



Because my uncle was a farrier, and rented out stables at his smithy - which was a very old one, in a sort of courtyard of a long-demolished mill - my dad had a never-ending source of horse-manure and so his greenhouses and frames were situated on genuine old 'hotbeds' of warm straw-and-manure. This was at about 275 m above sea level in north Derbyshire. Last frost was reliably mid/late May and first frost, end Sep/early Oct. A county cricket championship match in June in a neighbouring town was once snowed off. It was my dad's hotbeds made ALL the difference to the harvest, year round!


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## classic33 (15 Apr 2022)

@Pat "5mph" , does the cat still guard your tomato plants?


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> It was my dad's hotbeds made ALL the difference to the harvest, year round!


I have seen a YouTube video by Charles Dowding, where he has such a hotbed in one of his greenhouses, to germinate seedlings faster.
I don't think I'll ever have those facilities, but maybe could improvise with milk cartons of hot water


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2022)

classic33 said:


> @Pat "5mph" , does the cat still guard your tomato plants?


BigCat (in my avatar) sadly passed in 2020.
Alfie, who I adopted later, likes to sleep under the willow tree in the shade, he's not interested in tomatoes 
Rosie, that I adopted shortly after Alfie, likes to get high on the catnip mint I have growing a big pot 😄


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## KnittyNorah (15 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I have seen a YouTube video by Charles Dowding, where he has such a hotbed in one of his greenhouses, to germinate seedlings faster.
> I don't think I'll ever have those facilities, but maybe could improvise with milk cartons of hot water


They can get so hot that they'll _cook_ your seedlings!


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> They can get so hot that they'll _cook_ your seedlings!


Aye, Charles was putting his seeds trees on a structure above the hotbed.
His thermometer was registering 50C at the core of the hotbed!
Fascinating stuff this veg growing, I wish I was into it when younger, would have learned more by now


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## KnittyNorah (15 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Aye, Charles was putting his seeds trees on a structure above the hotbed.
> His thermometer was registering 50C at the core of the hotbed!
> Fascinating stuff this veg growing, I wish I was into it when younger, would have learned more by now


When the water froze in the stables where I kept my horses, we dug a hole in the muck heap, lined it with heavy duty polythene and filled it with lidded buckets and sealed jerrycans of ice. We covered them over with an old door and more polythene, and piled the muck back over. Next morning, gallons of lukewarm water!


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## mudsticks (16 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Lol @mudstick!
> I guess your son, being a uni student, lives in or around the trendy west end.
> Tell him there's no need to hide his veg gardening in that area. There are plenty of local community gardening groups, with many veg growing projects on the go, all on social media.
> He could even get a part time job at Locavore, they have a mega organic growing area not far out of Glasgow.
> ...


Him not a student, but has quite a few friends up there, who are.

And he's been and volunteered at a couple of community farms too, but seems determined to grow his own as well..

I think the challenge, of growing in obscure places is part of the attraction - I'm passing through next month so maybe I'll get a tour of the clandestine greenery  

Did you try your vine leaves for dolmades yet?






Pat 5mph said:


> I have seen a YouTube video by Charles Dowding, where he has such a hotbed in one of his greenhouses, to germinate seedlings faster.
> I don't think I'll ever have those facilities, but maybe could improvise with milk cartons of hot water


Hotbeds do work for sure, but they take some construction, and management. 
Used to use them years ago but I have to confess to having thermostatically controlled propagation benches nowadays.. 

What a cheat.. 

You'd need something to keep that hot water hot though..
Umm... such as a pile of steaming manure.??

I spread a load of innoculated woodchip yesterday, that was getting pretty steamy , loads of lovely mycelium running through - it was almost cooking the trailer base.. 


So much life going on, in and amongst, and all around, once you start to to look


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## gbb (16 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> It's just how trade in perishables largely 'works' atm.
> 
> It's deliberately set up to be weighted as a buyer's market, once the produce is grown, then suppliers are at the mercy of the multiples, who can cancel contracts or impose price reduction s.
> 
> It's all well documented.


It certainly used to be but in a way, that may be changing.(the following is based on my observations of 45 years in the food industry, no more)
Look back 20/30 years ago, lots of successfull independant suppliers, some who grew locally large and made a lot of money. Indeed, they were at the mercy of the retailers. Contracts tended to be 1 year, there were plenty of other packers out there eager to take the work. 
I remember a local potato grower who developed a successful contract with Tesco, all went well for years, Tesco started pushing him to upgrade his premises, eventaully he spent £1million(a lot of money then)...6 months later, they dumped him, he folded as a result.

I recall the fear there was as annual contracts were due for renewal.

Christain Salvesens( frozen veg suppliers and processors) on the other hand were a major transpot, logistics, storage and processing company with clout, the then largest operator of Mercedes trucks in the country with major processing facilities throughout the UK and its own distribution network. The retailers they packed for slowly eroded away the margins until it basically didnt pay...Salvesens got out the market. TBF, their sites were getting old, not energy efficient, bespoke machinery was very expensive
to replace etc etc. A lot of money needed spending, i guess the margins didnt make it worth doing.

But now the complexity thats grown in the system, traceability , logistics, its all much more integrated and realistically, only the big boys can do it, crops and purchases are planned a year in advance...there simply arent the packers/suplliers out there that can do it, contracts are longer, retailers work far better with their suppliers, they have to really. Its still hard and demanding but theres more certainty now.

As said, this just seems my take on it within my small sphere, its a huge business out there, im sure there are still bad examples out there too


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## mudsticks (16 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> It certainly used to be but in a way, that may be changing.(the following is based on my observations of 45 years in the food industry, no more)
> Look back 20/30 years ago, lots of successfull independant suppliers, some who grew locally large and made a lot of money. Indeed, they were at the mercy of the retailers. Contracts tended to be 1 year, there were plenty of other packers out there eager to take the work.
> I remember a local potato grower who developed a successful contract with Tesco, all went well for years, Tesco started pushing him to upgrade his premises, eventaully he spent £1million(a lot of money then)...6 months later, they dumped him, he folded as a result.
> 
> ...


And alongside the tendency towards bigness goes increased mechanisation, specialisation, leading to monocultures requiring greater amounts of fossil fuel inputs , chemical and machinery wise, spiralling upwards
.

A loss of diversity, not just biodiversity but also crop diversity, compounding the problems of monocultures .

Not to mention the loss of resilence in a system when you only have a few very large dominating players reliant on links in a long supply chain.

And longer longer supply chains, also require larger amounts of fossil fuels for transport, and refrigeration, and packaging.

Without those big fossil fuel inputs, which we're supposed to be cutting back on, the whole system is a bit cooked..

(Not to mention the reliance on 'cheap' labour)

Covid, and the 'other event' that shall not be named showed up the fragility of relying on so much imported stuff.

Businesses like mine carried on same as ever, prospered even, because we hadn't got locked into a situation dependant on so many other external inputs, our local markets remained loyal..
Keener even
.

Labour is my biggest cost, but working alongside others of like mind, in a chemical free environment, surrounded by the delights of the natural world , whilst doing skilled craft work , is now quite a lot of peoples idea of a reasonably nice way of working.

Thankfully..

Yes it's quite hard work at times, but I don't ever have to go to the gym for weight training - every day is leg and arm day.. 

T'internet has also opened up new avenues for smaller and medium scaled growers to market and sell direct and via local networks and growers cooperatives and thus capture more of the final sale price, enabling their businesses to prosper via the support of food concerned citizens.

I've seen a big increase in other people setting up to do that in the last ten years or so.
Those aspirant growers and farmers still struggle to gain secure access to land and the other resources necessary, but awareness is building.

Little bits of change are happening here and there, as food and how it's produced moves up the agenda , for lots of reasons.

Hopefully that will keep going, the elms scheme is supposed to be helping with all that, but there's still a lot of uncertainty surrounding all that too.

'Interesting times' to be in our line of work, I'd say...


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## mudsticks (16 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Aye, Charles was putting his seeds trees on a structure above the hotbed.
> His thermometer was registering 50C at the core of the hotbed!
> Fascinating stuff this veg growing, I wish I was into it when younger, would have learned more by now


Pre covid, I used to run three day courses alongside CD , people would spend a day at his place, a day here and a day with another medium scale market grower getting different angles on techniques and particular methodologies ..

The no dig, super thick mulch technique can work really well on smaller sites, but scaling all that up anything beyond a couple of acres becomes a big ol' exercise in 'materials handling'

I know some folks also take issue with using so much organic matter to the point that soils become 'obese' and certain nutrients get locked up . 

Not sure about how great a risk that _really_ is, and I'm pretty sure anything home grown the 'Dowders' way is still going to surpass anything you'll buy in the shops, nutrition, and tastewise ...

Right, a few more hours work then I'm having _all_ of Sunday off >>>>>
Who knows -i might even get a ride in


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## gbb (16 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> And alongside the tendency towards bigness goes increased mechanisation, specialisation, leading to monocultures requiring greater amounts of fossil fuel inputs , chemical and machinery wise, spiralling upwards
> .
> 
> A loss of diversity, not just biodiversity but also crop diversity, compounding the problems of monocultures .
> ...



And long may your types of business prosper i say.


The irony is, growers like yourself can sometimes sell their home grown produce cheaper than people pay at the supermarkets. We buy our potatoes from a local smallholder, he grows those, cereal crops and maybe a couple other bits but his potatoes are brilliant. He doesnt irrigate, its all as nature driven as reasonably possible and he has a big, long standing following....and hes cheaper than the supermarkets to boot.
He aslo sells eggs , fresh from another farm, theyre just eggs but because theyre fresh, theyre so much nicer, golden yellow yolks...and cheaper to boot.


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## mudsticks (16 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> And long may your types of business prosper i say.
> 
> 
> The irony is, growers like yourself can sometimes sell their home grown produce cheaper than people pay at the supermarkets. We buy our potatoes from a local smallholder, he grows those, cereal crops and maybe a couple other bits but his potatoes are brilliant. He doesnt irrigate, its all as nature driven as reasonably possible and he has a big, long standing following....and hes cheaper than the supermarkets to boot.
> He aslo sells eggs , fresh from another farm, theyre just eggs but because theyre fresh, theyre so much nicer, golden yellow yolks...and cheaper to boot.


Thank you, it's doing pretty well so far...
(20 years in) 

My flocks benefit from all the greenness of crop aftermath..

Clear ground of weeds, and unhelpful bugs such as leather jackets.

Add to the customer 'offer' with their golden deliciousness..

And increase my businesses profitability






..

Plus we get yummy lunches


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## Alex321 (16 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> Christain Salvesens( frozen veg suppliers and processors) on the other hand were a major transpot, logistics, storage and processing company with clout, the then largest operator of Mercedes trucks in the country with major processing facilities throughout the UK and its own distribution network. The retailers they packed for slowly eroded away the margins until it basically didnt pay...Salvesens got out the market. TBF, their sites were getting old, not energy efficient, bespoke machinery was very expensive
> to replace etc etc. A lot of money needed spending, i guess the margins didnt make it worth doing.


Salvesons were one of the main suppliers of summer jobs for (16+) schoolkids when I was growing up in Grantham. I remember one year working on their packaging stocktake. It was quite an eye-opener to a naïve schoolboy, just how many "different" brands were packed in the one factory.


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## Pat "5mph" (16 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Did you try your vine leaves for dolmades yet?


Oh yes, the vine in my garden is now 14 years old, plenty of leaves each season, but no grapes because it's outside.
The original plant, the one smuggled from Cyprus, must be 25 years old now, it's in a friend's greenhouse, he gets grapes.


mudsticks said:


> Those aspirant growers and farmers still struggle to gain secure access to land and the other resources necessary, but awareness is building.


I attended a discussion group with South Lanarkshire Council (my area, I live just outside the boundaries with Glasgow City Council).
SLC have put in place a sustainable food strategy plan - well, they are trying, I feel they are already clogging themselves up with disjointed policies.
One of the issues that came out from that seminar was the bureaucracy around obtaining local authority permission to use their land to grow food.
For example, my small community gardening group has asked for permission to plant half a dozen fruit trees in a local disused green space: there's been only grass growing there for as long as residents can remember, it's not near any buildings.
We have asked permission to plant over 6 months ago, still waiting for an answer.
If it was up to me, I would have planted them already, but the group's committee voted against, as they live in council houses, don't want any negative comeback.
Meanwhile, we have planted fruit trees in our back gardens: strictly speaking, that is council property too, because most of the flats are council owned  but we really wanted them to be accessible to all the community, not only the residents of our block.
Meanwhile (again!) said council, jumping on the COP26 bandwagon, decided to plant 60 fruit trees in a local park that could have poisoned soil, because the area used to be a damping ground for a chemical factory.
The gardening group that operates in the same park has been told by same council they are not allowed to grow food stuff in the ground least they pay for expensive soil analysis, they must grow raised beds!
On planting the trees, SLC refused to engage with local community groups, did the planting in a day, left it at that: their trees have already been vandalized.
Disjointed food action plan by this council, to say the least.
To top all this up, we have many abandoned orchards in the Clyde Valley, why not take care of them first, before planting more?
An example of a mere PR exercise, me thinks. 


mudsticks said:


> Pre covid, I used to run three day courses alongside CD


Aww!!! 


Alex321 said:


> It was quite an eye-opener to a naïve schoolboy, just how many "different" brands were packed in the one factory.


I felt the same when I attended a fishmonger course in Grimsby for Asda: what a major con, I thought, this salmon coming out of the conveyor belt for Asda is the same salmon for Marks and Spencer, they just put different packaging on it!


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## mudsticks (16 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I attended a discussion group with South Lanarkshire Council (my area, I live just outside the boundaries with Glasgow City Council).
> SLC have put in place a sustainable food strategy plan - well, they are trying, I feel they are already clogging themselves up with disjointed policies.
> One of the issues that came out from that seminar was the bureaucracy around obtaining local authority permission to use their land to grow food.
> For example, my small community gardening group has asked for permission to plant half a dozen fruit trees in a local disused green space: there's been only grass growing there for as long as residents can remember, it's not near any buildings.
> ...


It's frustrating when it feels like only so much lip service (pardon the pun) is being paid to these issues.

Food, and food production, health physical and mental, social care, environment, education, economy, climate care, social cohesion, general well-being, environment and family life are all so very dependant upon good food provisioning, fair access to land, and spaces to recreate and grow.

Get it right and you've got a real recipe for success..

It's been marginalised, seen as a 'nice to have' add on, after we've done all the other things..

We could do so much better.
So many individuals and groups such as yours are already doing their best, trying to make a difference.

I agree put time to maintaining what's already there, what's being done well.

Some more joined up and long-term thinking commitment, from powers that be is what's required .

Ah well, enough hobby horsing, it's Saturday night, I've drawn a bath, and a fruity red awaits...


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## gbb (17 Apr 2022)

Well, as an Asda shopper i tried the 20p broccoli. It was ok, just ok, possibly not as tasty as frozen broccoli but quite edible. Long thick stalks were cut into 6mm thick medallions and cooked with the florets, no problem.
Would i buy it again ?...meh, if it suited but i wouldnt break a neck to do it.
As a long term shopper at Asda, fresh fruit and veg in my opinion is not the best, far from it but acceptable would be the word so perhaps the broccoli follows the trend there.
It was ok, just ok.


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## oldwheels (17 Apr 2022)

I am not going to put more than my toe into this thread but it is one of the most interesting ones I have come across.
My father used compost heated beds in the 1940s and we had yellow tomatoes and all sorts of exotica for those days.
Interestingly the land he used for the market garden belonged to a Major Salvesen, a relative of the distribution company named earlier.
Sadly my deteriorating health has put paid to most of my veg gardening.


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## Pat "5mph" (17 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> Well, as an Asda shopper i tried the 20p broccoli. It was ok, just ok, possibly not as tasty as frozen broccoli but quite edible. Long thick stalks were cut into 6mm thick medallions and cooked with the florets, no problem.
> Would i buy it again ?...meh, if it suited but i wouldnt break a neck to do it.
> As a long term shopper at Asda, fresh fruit and veg in my opinion is not the best, far from it but acceptable would be the word so perhaps the broccoli follows the trend there.
> It was ok, just ok.


Well, I was in Tesco today: the same 20p broccoli - same packaging, from Spain, are 65p (or 60, can't remember, but it said Aldi price match, mind how yesterday there was no 20p broccoli in Aldi?)
Now, I have bought Tesco broccoli before: is it my imagination @gbb that the Tesco broccoli tasted much fresher than the Asda 20p broccoli?
And yet, the packaging, content, country of origin on label are identical!
On the by, the 19p British carrots and British parsnips are in Tesco too now, like in Aldi.
These smaller branches of Tesco and Aldi that I have visited are an easy walking distance from several nearby residential areas. They are competitors, but the immediate area near Tesco is wealthy, the immediate area near Aldi is quite poor.
The Asda is a bit further away, a massive affair with clothing, lots of Asian and Polish foods, household stuff, a petrol station, an attached Mac Donald's.
I'll no be buying broccoli for a while, because my sprouting broccoli are sprouting  but I shall keep an eye on this veg war!


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## Reynard (17 Apr 2022)

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and I've found it fascinating - and I've learned a fair bit, so bonus. 

Haven't bought any broccoli for a while tbh, but as a Tesco shopper, I find the quality of the fruit and veg in the store I shop at (Ely) to generally be very good. It's rare that I end up with a lemon from the fresh produce section. I do try and stick to seasonality though, and if something's not up to scratch, e.g. "blown" cauliflowers or woody beans, I'll choose something else. I've eaten a lot of savoy cabbages this winter, as they've been very good.

But I also buy veg from a local small "hobbyist" grower who turns out excellent produce. On some things he's cheaper than Tesco e.g. kale, celeriac and squashes, on other things it's on par or a little more. But IMHO it's worth paying that premium for the flavour and lack of food miles. The gentleman in question is nearly 90, btw, although you wouldn't know it.


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## Pat "5mph" (17 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> I've eaten a lot of savoy cabbages this winter, as they've been very good.


Here it's been the red cabbage in Tesco, I've even pickled and fermented some, as even the yellow sticker ones were perfect quality during the winter.
20p yellow sticker veg I can understand, especially because most foodbanks do not have refrigeration or facilities to take in fresh produce.
On the by, here we are moving away from foodbanks (Scottish government plan), in favour of community fridges.
Community fridges need no referrals, are supported by Hubbub, the Co-op and Fairshare. 
You know, there is some veg or fruit I don't buy, even if they are reduced: like strawberries, why buy them in December from, say, South Africa, when I get to eat my own strawberries the whole month of June, fresh, organic, no carbon footprint.
Berries I won't buy either, no matter the price. The supermarket ones are heavily sprayed. I eat my own or foraged wild blackberries, freeze some.



Reynard said:


> But I also buy veg from a local small "hobbyist" grower who turns out excellent produce.


Hopefully that will be me with my small gardening group in another couple of years 
I am waiting for yet another delivery of bulk bag of compost, horse manure, and woodchips.
We had woodchips for free in the past, but it seems the free ones are never available when you need them.
Just as well I have enough cycling stuff to last me for a lifetime: couldn't afford cycling and gardening expenses at the same time 
My building is due a reroofing and new rendering. This will destroy my front garden, most of the back too.
I'm trying to grow most edibles in pots away from the building, lucky I can use some communal ground away from the scaffolding.
The works have halted for unknown reasons: I hope they won't start back till the growing season has ended


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## Reynard (17 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> You know, there is some veg or fruit I don't buy, even if they are reduced: like strawberries, why buy them in December from, say, South Africa, when I get to eat my own strawberries the whole month of June, fresh, organic, no carbon footprint.
> Berries I won't buy either, no matter the price. The supermarket ones are heavily sprayed. I eat my own or foraged wild blackberries, freeze some.



I very rarely buy soft fruit out of the UK season (April - end September) because it's tasteless. And the food miles, of course. OK, when I sticker, some bets (but not all) are off. Because I'll be the crazy woman sniffing the strawberries to check for quality, even in season. Most of a strawberry's flavour, plus our perception of its sweetness, is in its aroma, because in reality a strawberry is actually as acidic as an orange. It's something I've always done - and been looked at rather oddly for it - but was vindicated a few years ago by a very interesting BBC documentary on how we perceive flavour in food.

Had some fabulous soft fruit last summer, including some Scottish blueberries that were absolutely banging. 

There's loads of places out here where I can go foraging for fruit and nuts, and I keep an eye out on the crops in my favourite spots while I'm out in the bike.

Although there are food miles and there are food miles. Stuff that's flown over is a much bigger no-no than stuff that's shipped in chilled containers. So I will pay attention to that, too...



Pat 5mph said:


> Hopefully that will be me with my small gardening group in another couple of years
> I am waiting for yet another delivery of bulk bag of compost, horse manure, and woodchips.
> We had woodchips for free in the past, but it seems the free ones are never available when you need them.
> Just as well I have enough cycling stuff to last me for a lifetime: couldn't afford cycling and gardening expenses at the same time
> ...



Wish you were closer... I have wood and a chipper, you could have as much as you could cart away. 

All I grow are tomatoes and herbs, plus I've a small selection of fruit trees and some strawberries that I struggle to get to before the slugs do... Used to grow more, but it's just me and mum and only so many runner beans or courgettes that you can eat. OK, I have a great recipe for pickled courgettes with dill and garlic, but even so...


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## mudsticks (18 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Here it's been the red cabbage in Tesco, I've even pickled and fermented some, as even the yellow sticker ones were perfect quality during the winter.
> 20p yellow sticker veg I can understand, especially because most foodbanks do not have refrigeration or facilities to take in fresh produce.
> On the by, here we are moving away from foodbanks (Scottish government plan), in favour of community fridges.
> Community fridges need no referrals, are supported by Hubbub, the Co-op and Fairshare.
> ...


Good luck with all that Pat..

Re accessing more woodchip, I don't know how big a site you have, or how accessible , but if you register your site to receive trade waste, you can build relationships with tree surgeons and have them deliver for free what is an asset to you, and a liability to them. 

I already have 'relationships' with a few tree surgeons..

So keen for extra organic matter was I that I even 'married' one.. *

*There _may_ have been other benefits too..

Red cabbage makes the yummiest kraut - my German farm help nearly always has a big jar on the go 


Reynard said:


> I very rarely buy soft fruit out of the UK season (April - end September) because it's tasteless. And the food miles, of course. OK, when I sticker, some bets (but not all) are off. Because I'll be the crazy woman sniffing the strawberries to check for quality, even in season. Most of a strawberry's flavour, plus our perception of its sweetness, is in its aroma, because in reality a strawberry is actually as acidic as an orange. It's something I've always done - and been looked at rather oddly for it - but was vindicated a few years ago by a very interesting BBC documentary on how we perceive flavour in food.
> 
> Had some fabulous soft fruit last summer, including some Scottish blueberries that were absolutely banging.
> 
> ...



I've really got into fermented veg of late, mainly via people coming to live and work at the farm..
It's not for want of always available fresh stuff, but the fermenting transforms the ingredients into something else again.

And it's meant to be excellent for your gut too.

Kimchis and krauts really lift even a very simple meal, and all you need in addition to the veg is a bit of salt and a few spices..


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## CharlesF (18 Apr 2022)

I don’t have any words of wisdom to add; but to say this is a very informative thread, way beyond 20p.


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> I've really got into fermented veg of late, mainly via people coming to live and work at the farm..
> It's not for want of always available fresh stuff, but the fermenting transforms the ingredients into something else again.
> 
> And it's meant to be excellent for your gut too.
> ...



I love making preserves with what I can forage and pick from the garden - or what I acquire on sticker or on good offers*, for that matter. I have won many a red rosette for them at local produce / agricultural shows. 

Am of Polish and German ancestry on my dad's side, so sauerkraut and pickled cucumbers were always around. Have to say, I don't possess a great fondness for them, simply because I find them waaaaaay too salty.

Although a choucroutte garni with smoked sausage and bacon generally hits the spot once in a while. 

* I made some fabulous marmalade that's half Seville oranges (bought off the market) and Navelina oranges bought on a clubcard offer in Tesco. I won't say no to 59p for a net of oranges, and will usually bulk buy as they keep well in my unheated utility room. The quality of the Navelinas this year has been absolutely exceptional - there must've been a glut for them to sell it at that price. I ate a fair few of them as well as I absolutely love oranges. I've had similar good buys on Lane Late oranges. They've been good too, very "orangey" but not as sweet as last year's crop.

That's about it for good Spanish oranges for the season. The clementines around Christmas were fabulous as well - I bought, and ate, with mum's help, seven and a half kilos of the damn things...


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## mudsticks (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> I love making preserves with what I can forage and pick from the garden - or what I acquire on sticker or on good offers*, for that matter. I have won many a red rosette for them at local produce / agricultural shows.
> 
> Am of Polish and German ancestry on my dad's side, so sauerkraut and pickled cucumbers were always around. Have to say, I don't possess a great fondness for them, simply because I find them waaaaaay too salty.
> 
> ...


I'm not massive fan of salt myself either..
Maybe the old krauting techniques have been adapted to reduce it, in some way..
.
Garlic and ginger and other flavourings, such as turmeric and cumin are featuring large too .

Unfortunately marmalade just doesn't do it for me at all...

Glad for anyone else to be scoffing that.

Couldn't imagine life without marmite though - one of the few things I've never tried making.
Very happy to leave that to the experts..


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## KnittyNorah (18 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> I've really got into fermented veg of late ...
> 
> Kimchis and krauts really lift even a very simple meal...



I used to enjoy all the krauts, and lots of the Middle Eastern pickles, too - and I loved pickled herring - as well as the usual British preserves of all sorts. 

However, when I was living in Auckland, I used to wait for my bus outside a Korean grocers which had the most FOUL fermentation smells emerging from it; one day it was all boarded up and taped off, and never reopened. There was quite a lot of (fairly discrete) fuss around how the environmental/food hygiene dept dealt with non-English language speakers; several Korean students and residents had apparently tried to report the place but had come up against barriers. 
Ever since then, I've been squeamish about fermented and pickled stuff - even when I make my own yoghurt I have to be careful not to sniff at it or I'll start retching, and I don't think I could cope with opening a jar of sauerkraut - although when I was last in Germany I enjoyed some with a meal but had to very determinedly and deliberately not smell it until it was in my mouth and I could taste it.


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Unfortunately marmalade just doesn't do it for me at all...
> 
> Glad for anyone else to be scoffing that.



I had the same opinion about marmalade - until I started making my own. It's on a completely different *planet* to what you buy in the shops. That stuff's just horrible and way too sweet. And then when you look at the label, you can understand why. It's made predominantly with sugar and fruit juice (about 70% sugar) and very little of the actual fruit i.e. peel and pulp goes in.

Mine is made using a 1:1 ratio of whole fruit to sugar, which is a much more traditional ratio for jams and the like. And so you actually taste the fruit rather than simply overwhelming sweetness. And you can really tell what's in it. Tangerine marmalade is the sweetest, whereas 100% Seville is quite bitter. Lime is mouthwateringly zingy, especially with added ginger, and red orange is subtle and mellow.

Marmalade bread-and-butter pudding, and now you're talking... Especially with a splooshette of orange flower water whisked in with the eggs and cream... 

P.S. I do like marmite. I will not buy things like marmite rice cakes or twiglets, because once I start, I can't stop...


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I used to enjoy all the krauts, and lots of the Middle Eastern pickles, too - and I loved pickled herring - as well as the usual British preserves of all sorts.



Have you tried the Listner-branded pickled herrings in cream sauce from the Polish aisle? They are very good. 

Herrings a must-have for Good Friday / Easter Saturday here.  The tub I bought went down without touching the sides. Still have some of the dressing left, which will be used to make some potato salad for tonight.


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## mudsticks (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> I had the same opinion about marmalade - until I started making my own. It's on a completely different *planet* to what you buy in the shops. That stuff's just horrible and way too sweet. And then when you look at the label, you can understand why. It's made predominantly with sugar and fruit juice (about 70% sugar) and very little of the actual fruit i.e. peel and pulp goes in.
> 
> Mine is made using a 1:1 ratio of whole fruit to sugar, which is a much more traditional ratio for jams and the like. And so you actually taste the fruit rather than simply overwhelming sweetness. And you can really tell what's in it. Tangerine marmalade is the sweetest, whereas 100% Seville is quite bitter. Lime is mouthwateringly zingy, especially with added ginger, and red orange is subtle and mellow.
> 
> ...




I promise you I've tried them all.

The delectable offerings, of very dear friends who are incredibly talented in all other crafts of the kitchen .
I just _can't_ get on with the stuff. 

Even in bread and butter pudding, which I've had as well, I'm still thinking..

"Hmm _quite_ nice, but it would be even nicerer _without_ the marmalade in it..".🤔


It's only really that, that I can think of that I don't like, or eat..
So I'm not tooo hard to please - honest...😇

But yes ..
Bags of twiglets , which are _allegedly_ 'sized for _sharing'_... ???

I don't think soo, actually...

Just had a very nice crab sandwich by the sea, got a bit rained on on the way home, but still the ground does need it..

We're nearly at 'peak hedge' hereabouts.

Alexanders, and stitchwort in full bloom.

Give it another week or so, the campions, fiddle heads, and bluebells will all be out as well - quite glorious .


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

Ah, I'll let you off this time @mudsticks  If only because it means there's more marmalade for me. I have the same opinion regarding marmalade as Paddington Bear. 

TBH, I'm very unfussy when it comes to food, there's very little I don't like / won't eat. Sardines are my bugbear, horrible things. And I can't eat some seafood as I'm allergic.

It's one of the reasons I yellow sticker - I just love the unexpected variety.


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## KnittyNorah (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Have you tried the Listner-branded pickled herrings in cream sauce from the Polish aisle? They are very good.
> 
> Herrings a must-have for Good Friday / Easter Saturday here.  The tub I bought went down without touching the sides. Still have some of the dressing left, which will be used to make some potato salad for tonight.



I'm sure they are but since the incident in Auckland of the 'kimchi-gone-wrong-smell', my stomach turns at almost all fermented and sour-pickled foods nowadays. It was quite difficult even to get myself back to yoghurt and decent cheeses. I used to LOVE pickled herring on strong, dark rye bread - the sort of thing you can get everywhere on the Baltic coast.


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## mudsticks (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Ah, I'll let you off this time @mudsticks  If only because it means there's more marmalade for me. I have the same opinion regarding marmalade as Paddington Bear.
> 
> TBH, I'm very unfussy when it comes to food, there's very little I don't like / won't eat. Sardines are my bugbear, horrible things. And I can't eat some seafood as I'm allergic.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I yellow sticker - I just love the unexpected variety.



Plus you're using up food that would otherwise go to waste.. 

Fill your boots with the marmalade..

Urrggh - sticky 😕


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## KnittyNorah (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Ah, I'll let you off this time @mudsticks  If only because it means there's more marmalade for me. I have the same opinion regarding marmalade as Paddington Bear.
> 
> TBH, I'm very unfussy when it comes to food, there's very little I don't like / won't eat. Sardines are my bugbear, horrible things. And I can't eat some seafood as I'm allergic.
> 
> It's one of the reasons I yellow sticker - I just love the unexpected variety.



Ah, I love sardines! I can eat them with my fingers straight out of the tin! And as for fresh sardines grilled on cheesey flatbread .... mmmmmmmmmm!


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Ah, I love sardines! I can eat them with my fingers straight out of the tin! And as for fresh sardines grilled on cheesey flatbread .... mmmmmmmmmm!



Well, if i have your herrings, you can have my sardines. Deal?

The trouble I have with sardines is that I eat them, and then several hours later, I'm still eating them. A cheap lunch, I suppose...


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Plus you're using up food that would otherwise go to waste..
> 
> Fill your boots with the marmalade..
> 
> Urrggh - sticky 😕



I wear crocs mostly, so it'd leak out of the holes... 

I picked up a lovely big whole salmon for half price on yellow sticker on Saturday. Just finished "processing" it. A friend took half a side, half a side is in the freezer, half a side is in the fridge for tomorrow (going to bake it with a lemon, parsley and parmesan crumb topping) and the remaining half is sitting in the fridge under several cans of beans in a cure of salt, sugar, pepper, allspice and brandy.

The head, tail and bones are simmering away for stock, and the trimmings from those are in the fridge. I shall be making salmon, potato and sweetcorn chowder.

So everything gets used. No waste here in that respect either.


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## KnittyNorah (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Well, if i have your herrings, you can have my sardines. Deal?
> 
> The trouble I have with sardines is that I eat them, and then several hours later, I'm still eating them. A cheap lunch, I suppose...




Yes, they do rather repeat! I have a similar problem with cucumber.


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## Pat "5mph" (18 Apr 2022)

No news from the supermarket veg war today: 20p offerings are still offered, the Spanish Broccoli isle seems more depleted than the British carrot one.
I went to see if I could find some cheap post Easter chocolate, no luck in Asda, will try Aldi tomorrow 
@mudsticks got a phone call today, a tree man is dumping a load of woodchips for free at mines tomorrow!
Happy days! I'm sharing with other gardeners from my community, hopefully they'll leave me some by the time I get home from work. I have planted a little wildflower patch last year, want to extend it a wee bit, but need to build a woodchip path first to be able to access the food growing area behind.
Because of the building works around us, we have access to a vast amount of pallets.
I have researched a simple pallet planter to make with my group. The idea is to position them in communal areas, some filled with cooking herbs, some with flowers, some with salad veg.
This time I'm not asking for Council permission, hehe.



KnittyNorah said:


> I don't think I could cope with opening a jar of sauerkraut - although when I was last in Germany I enjoyed some with a meal but had to very determinedly and deliberately not smell it until it was in my mouth and I could taste it.


Strangely, the one you make yourself does not smell as the one you buy in the shop, ime.
I only started to ferment foods in lockdown, wasn't really sure if I liked ferments.
Turns out that I do, apart from the Kombucha: more vile than Irn Bru imo 
I gave the jar away, mega scooby and all: the jar cost me more than the homemade Kombucha itself, felt sorry to give it away ... should have thrown the Kombucha down the drain instead 



Reynard said:


> Have you tried the Listner-branded pickled herrings in cream sauce from the Polish aisle? They are very good.


Oh yes! I am supposed to eat plenty of oily fish.
Having it smothered in a cream sauce is acceptable, no? 


Reynard said:


> Sardines are my bugbear, horrible things.


I like them, mixed with a pasta sauce, on top of a baked potato, or with rice or quinoa.
One of my cats likes sardines too, hence it's a difficult to eat food for me


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I like them, mixed with a pasta sauce, on top of a baked potato, or with rice or quinoa.
> One of my cats likes sardines too, hence it's a difficult to eat food for me



Mesdames Poppy and Lexi have the same opinion of sardines that I have. Namely that they are the work of Beelzebub. I trust the girls' opinion on foodstuffs. 

Do you want some forget-me-not seeds for your wildflower patch? If so, give me a reminder about July time, and I'll stick some in the post. They're all flowering now, and I've massive drifts of wee blue flowers...


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## KnittyNorah (18 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Strangely, the one you make yourself does not smell as the one you buy in the shop, ime.


Sorry - even the yoghurt I make myself can no longer be sniffed without making me throw up a little into my mouth. Oh the stink of that shop, I will never forget it!


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## Reynard (18 Apr 2022)

Clothes peg?


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## KnittyNorah (18 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Clothes peg?



Don't think I haven't given that some thought! I might even have tried something similar ... cotton wool stuffed up my nose. I'm fully aware that most of it is a learned/programmed response which by now is a mere habit; I managed to overcome it for the sake of good cheese and along the way managed other milk products too, but there's not the incentive with soused herring and sauerkraut as there was with cheese!


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## icowden (18 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Now, I have bought Tesco broccoli before: is it my imagination @gbb that the Tesco broccoli tasted much fresher than the Asda 20p broccoli?
> And yet, the packaging, content, country of origin on label are identical!


@mudsticks probably knows more about this topic than me, but I'm sure I recall reading that supermarkets will often purchase "parts" of a farms crop. So M&S might purchase 35% of the "A" grade broccoli, Asda might be getting "C" grade and Tesco "B" grade all based on what they want to pay and therefore what price they intend to retail it at. So you could conceivably be getting the same crop from the same farm, but getting less fresh and good looking broccoli than another provider.


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2022)

icowden said:


> @mudsticks probably knows more about this topic than me, but I'm sure I recall reading that supermarkets will often purchase "parts" of a farms crop. So M&S might purchase 35% of the "A" grade broccoli, Asda might be getting "C" grade and Tesco "B" grade all based on what they want to pay and therefore what price they intend to retail it at. So you could conceivably be getting the same crop from the same farm, but getting less fresh and good looking broccoli than another provider.



That sounds plausible, there are 'grades' of crop.

But contracts between the multiples and growers will vary .

The problem is there are so relatively few buyers, who control the market, and can who can set, and or drop prices at will .

Particularly for fresh food it's a buyer's market, as once it's grown and harvested there's not much a producer can do.

Those special 'offers' from the supermarket are usually borne by the producer.

Theres an agency called the Grocery Code Adjudicator, that is supposed to see and impose 'fair dealing' between producers and the multiples, unfortunately it is pretty toothless  

It would be interesting to see the figures on how much is being planted overall this year, particularly in this country.

With the dearth of skilled labour from overseas, and rising fuel and input costs, I expect there will be a lot of growers not seeing any future in it 

Which would be a real shame, for availability of really fresh food, and all the skills and knowledge gone.


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## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2022)

slowmotion said:


> Sensibly, broccoli wasn't widely available in my childhood. As I grew up, I learned to reject vile trendy vegetables.



I'm struggling with the concept of "trendy broccoli". I guess it may have been trendy in the 70s. Along with brightly coloured tank tops. I think in the 70s my dad grew purple sprouting in the garden, so it was a bit of an oddity. But since the about the 80s I think it's lost any claim to trendiness.


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## KnittyNorah (19 Apr 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'm struggling with the concept of "trendy broccoli". I guess it may have been trendy in the 70s. Along with brightly coloured tank tops. I think in the 70s my dad grew purple sprouting in the garden, so it was a bit of an oddity. But since the about the 80s I think it's lost any claim to trendiness.



I can vaguely remember my mum saying to my dad that there was this 'new stuff in the greengrocers they called broccoli, but it wasn't like any broccoli you or I have ever seen, it was more like that Italian stuff you grew a few years ago - what was it called?' That would probably have been in the later 1960s or early 1970s.


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## Pat "5mph" (19 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> With the dearth of skilled labour from overseas, and rising fuel and input costs, I expect there will be a lot of growers not seeing any future in it


Yes, exporters to the UK and exporters to other colder climate countries, I guess.
Could this perhaps mean that the UK growers will get a better deal?
Maybe we will get used to only eat in season (for us) fruit and veg? Climate is against us!
It would be interesting to investigate veg growing and consuming in Mediterranean countries.
I follow a few Italian cooking channels, they always publish recipes according to what's in season there.
I know that farm labour is not treated fairly, here or abroad, but is the end cost to the consumer abroad the equivalent of 20p veg too?
I know that small scale farmers on the continent used to sell their produce at local markets, every town had one at least once a week, bigger cities had daily fruit and veg markets.
I'm not sure if this is still the case, or if supermarkets are the predominant choice nowadays.


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## Reynard (19 Apr 2022)

Depends @Pat "5mph" 

When I'm in that there Londinium, I favour a particular street market which specializes in fruit and veg. The produce there is excellent, though the deals are very pot luck and do vary from day to day. The proximity of Spitalfields probably has something to do with that.

But you do need a handle on supermarket prices, because some things are cheaper in the supermarket - and sold in more sensible quantities to boot.

Out here, the market is largely disappointing when it comes to greengrocery, which is daft, considering we're on the edge of market garden territory here. There is a new stall which is promising, but whether they retain that variety remains to be seen. Food tastes out here are pretty conservative, much to my frustration at times.


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Yes, exporters to the UK and exporters to other colder climate countries, I guess.
> Could this perhaps mean that the UK growers will get a better deal?
> Maybe we will get used to only eat in season (for us) fruit and veg? Climate is against us!
> It would be interesting to investigate veg growing and consuming in Mediterranean countries.
> ...


Well I was more wondering if a lot of UK growers will be producing at all.
What with fuel, and input price rises, and labour shortages, because of you-know- what..

And before as anyone says 'get UK workers to do it'..
It takes a long time to get up to the speed, and skill required .

But we will have to see how it all pans out.
, I'll keep going of course, but I enjoy a loyal customer base.
My costs, and prices will go up a bit, but there are ways of keeping things affordable for anyone having a really difficult time financially.

On the continent there is still generally a stronger culture of valuing, and supporting local and regional food.
Regular markets are still found in most towns .

This is partly down to farm size, and number of, there are just more small and medium sized farms, because of the way land is passed on, but also it's a food culture thing.

Even chain supermarkets are often franchised, and their buyers will source regionally because that's what their shoppers demand .

Many local authorities require that a large proportion of public procurement, for schools and hospitals, is regional too. 

Of course there are the big operations, and industrialised food too, as described above.. Often as much for export, as the home market

Not always doing very much good to the environment, or for their workers.

I've heard of large scale growers who won't actually eat their own produce..
They keep a 'home garden' for their own consumption..
Which is rather telling..


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## Reynard (19 Apr 2022)

I've noticed a lot of produce (e.g. apples, potatoes, carrots, cauliflowers) from Cambridgeshire and Norfolk in my local Tesco @mudsticks - not sure if that's a deliberate thing or simply coincidence...


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2022)

Well it could be something they're doing deliberately.
But your area has good soils, and should be able to produce lots of decent veg . 

Not such a bad view whilst working late at the office here this evening 






Not sure about all that 'red sky at night' stuff though...

As soon as it got dark, it started raining..
For which I'm thankful


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## Reynard (19 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Well it could be something they're doing deliberately.
> But your area has good soils, and should be able to produce lots of decent veg .
> 
> Not such a bad view whilst working late at the office here this evening
> ...



Saves you going out with a watering can... 

Fen-grown Maris Piper tatties are just the best.  Especially if they've fallen off a trailer and rolled into the verge...


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Saves you going out with a watering can...
> 
> Fen-grown Maris Piper tatties are just the best.  Especially if they've fallen off a trailer and rolled into the verge...



Those lovely peaty soils..
They just need to look after them a bit better .
So much lost to erosion, one way or another..

Yes , a watering can on this little lot, now _that_ would take a while


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## Reynard (19 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Those lovely peaty soils..
> They just need to look after them a bit better .
> So much lost to erosion, one way or another..
> 
> Yes , a watering can on this little lot, now _that_ would take a while



Yes, the drop from road to field is rather sobering. In part, that's why I plunked seven acres of trees in. It is getting better now in terms of looking after the soil I think, although I can't claim to be au fait with the ins-and-outs of what's being done.

I've got a spare can I can wang over if you want...  Prime fen ditch water optional extra.


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## mudsticks (19 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Yes, the drop from road to field is rather sobering. In part, that's why I plunked seven acres of trees in. It is getting better now in terms of looking after the soil I think, although I can't claim to be au fait with the ins-and-outs of what's being done.
> 
> I've got a spare can I can wang over if you want...  Prime fen ditch water optional extra.



Yes it's not all doom and gloom by any measure .
I go to a large regenerative agriculture gathering in June, where a lot of the bigger scaled operators hang out..

And among them theres a lot of interest in soil building, and ecology, and environment, even social issues such as access to land for new entrants - even in those, what you might consider more 'conventional' farming circles.

Most farmers aren't stupid, despite the rather 'slow rusticle' image that some like to project on us, we can see what needs to be done, it's just most have been pushed, or at least 'encouraged' down a bit of a factory farming cul-de-sac. 

And of course, we need to make a living, like everyone else.. 

Soil building, and biomass sucks up, and stores carbon too..
Which everyone likes right?? 

So that's being encouraged far more now as well🌳 👍🏼💚


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## Reynard (19 Apr 2022)

When I first moved out this way, I remember the farmers burning the stubble after the wheat harvest. Gawd, that was ghastly, with all the fine ash covering everything in sight. 

Now it has to be ploughed back into the soil. And there is one crop that gets grown in rotation purely to be worked back into the land, but I can't remember what it is.

And one farm not far away has a beef herd, and the output from their mooers is very much in demand.


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> When I first moved out this way, I remember the farmers burning the stubble after the wheat harvest. Gawd, that was ghastly, with all the fine ash covering everything in sight.
> 
> Now it has to be ploughed back into the soil. And there is one crop that gets grown in rotation purely to be worked back into the land, but I can't remember what it is.
> 
> And one farm not far away has a beef herd, and the output from their mooers is very much in demand.



Yes great that stubble burning was stopped.

Now we have to contend with the *ubiquity of glyphosate*, being locked in into so many conventional production systems.. 

Which was hailed for decades as being a 'non toxic' answer to weed control, and ground preparation..

- How something that killed all vegetation so thoroughly could really be seen as 'non toxic' is a bit of mystery, but we will tend to believe that which is most convenient to believe.

And it's easier to go along with the 'experts' aggressively marketing stuff, and do what everyone else is doing, rather than being seen as some backwards looking, all muck and magic type oddball.. 

But there's lots of techniques and methodologies coming through, that give other options... 

Right, a whole load of (unsprayed) veg to harvest >>>>


*Cue @winjim and his 'And now The Fall' funny 😊


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## winjim (20 Apr 2022)

Is that prog rock or psy trance? Could be either.


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

winjim said:


> Is that prog rock or psy trance? Could be either.



Definitely trance .

Certainly not 'progressive'


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## T4tomo (20 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> And there is one crop that gets grown in rotation purely to be worked back into the land, but I can't remember what it is.



Peas and beans work as a cover crop as the actively add nitrogen to the soil, then can be ploughed back in a "green fertiliser". Also keeping the soil covered over winter protects it "arable / growing" properties.


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> Peas and beans work as a cover crop as the actively add nitrogen to the soil, then can be ploughed back in a "green fertiliser". Also keeping the soil covered over winter protects it "arable / growing" properties.


Clover is a classic nitrogen fixer and overwintering soil stabiliser 

There's been a real problem with late harvested maize ground, then being exposed to erosion over winter, over the last twenty years or so, around here..

More farmers are undersowing it with something like clover nowadays..

I tend to use ryecorn as an overwintering green manure.

Vetches, ryegrass, and sunflowers 🌻🙂🌻🙂🌻🙂 on any unused ground in summer..

You get lots of beauty too that way too


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## KnittyNorah (20 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Clover is a classic nitrogen fixer and overwintering soil stabiliser
> 
> There's been a real problem with late harvested maize ground, then being exposed to erosion over winter, over the last twenty years or so, around here..
> 
> ...



Apparently in the US, people who grow sunflowers as a cover crop can often make a nice little side income by selling 'photography passes' ...


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## T4tomo (20 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Apparently in the US, people who grow sunflowers as a cover crop can often make a nice little side income by selling 'photography passes' ...



there is a farm I often cycle past down here that usually grows sunflowers on a field in summer and sells them at a £1 a flower to passing motorists. I've never been charged for taking a photo though...


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Apparently in the US, people who grow sunflowers as a cover crop can often make a nice little side income by selling 'photography passes' ...


Here one for you Nora..

Foc🙂🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻










T4tomo said:


> there is a farm I often cycle past down here that usually grows sunflowers on a field in summer and sells them at a £1 a flower to passing motorists. I've never been charged for taking a photo though...



I've been known to sell a few from time to time, but mostly just give them away .

Got a really good yield of viable seed from last year's crop.

All ready for sowing again this year..

It's like 'the circle of life'


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## T4tomo (20 Apr 2022)

given whats going on in Ukraine, we might need all your seeds and more for sunflower oil...


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> given whats going on in Ukraine, we might need all your seeds and more for sunflower oil...



Yes I did joke about currently being a sunflower seed millionairess.. 

I think on the whole, from a practical pov, were best off concentrating on rape seed for oil in this country.


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## CharlesF (20 Apr 2022)

Talking ploughing, isn’t it now considered bad for the soil?


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

CharlesF said:


> Talking ploughing, isn’t it now considered bad for the soil?



Yup inverting soil , particularly deep ploughing is not good for it..

For all kinds of reasons - killing soil life - carbon liberation - destroying structure etc etc.

I mostly do minimal tillage myself.

It's a bit of a shame as I quite like ploughing.


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## Reynard (20 Apr 2022)

Mmmm, I love sunflowers...  And sunflower honey... 

Although rape seed oil is my cooking oil of choice. I'm just looking out of my window and can see loads of yellow in the fields. I might cycle that way later, I just love the aroma of the flowers. Although I'd better take some antihistamines first...


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## KnittyNorah (20 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> there is a farm I often cycle past down here that usually grows sunflowers on a field in summer and sells them at a £1 a flower to passing motorists. I've never been charged for taking a photo though...



I suppose that here (and in most of western Europe for that matter) you're highly unlikely to get shot if you stand beside a field of sunflowers to take a photo - or even right within said field, if you walk along a PROW. 

But in a country where there are no (or almost no) such things as public rights of way over private land, and where, it seems, everyone and his dog have a gun to hand, it's probably worth paying someone for access to a particularly beautiful field ... or else ...


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## KnittyNorah (20 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> Mmmm, I love sunflowers...  And sunflower honey...
> 
> Although rape seed oil is my cooking oil of choice. I'm just looking out of my window and can see loads of yellow in the fields. I might cycle that way later, I just love the aroma of the flowers. Although I'd better take some antihistamines first...



A few years ago I grew a lot of sunflowers in the allotment I had when I lived in the village, as I'd got seeds on the allotment's account at a wholesaler, for a teacher friend, and even after she'd distributed enough for everyone at the school to have half a dozen plants, I still had loads left to grow. 
Eventually I cut a big bunch of them and took them to a charity shop where I used to volunteer - and some of the volunteers found it hard to believe they were real, as they were so unfeasibly big. They ended up selling quite a lot of them in return for 'gold coin donations' and made about £20, I believe. They are such happy, cheerful flowers!


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## T4tomo (20 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> It's a bit of a shame as I quite like ploughing.



I imagine its quite satisfying, my Dad didn't really do arable bar some turnips, and was never I trusted with a plough.
I did like chain harrowing though, leaving pretty stripes.


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> I imagine its quite satisfying, my Dad didn't really do arable bar some turnips, and was never I trusted with a plough.
> I did like chain harrowing though, leaving pretty stripes.



Yes it's like making brown corduroy out of a weedy patch..

If you get it right...

'Instant effect'..

Who doesn't like 'instant effect??'


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## Pat "5mph" (20 Apr 2022)

Probs a silly question, but why grow sunflowers as a cover crop? Aren't all fields in the growing season supposed to be full of eatable/sellable crops if you're a farmer?
Also, if you plant a cover crop like clover over winter, then you must till the land before planting the summer crop, yes?
So a cover crop suited for no dig would be your peas and beans? Broad beans maybe too?
In my wee garden, I leave some brassicas over winter, and I leave some autumn leaves/garden debris for insects to overwinter in. Of course, the slugs hide in there too


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## mudsticks (20 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Probs a silly question, but why grow sunflowers as a cover crop? Aren't all fields in the growing season supposed to be full of eatable/sellable crops if you're a farmer?
> Also, if you plant a cover crop like clover over winter, then you must till the land before planting the summer crop, yes?
> So a cover crop suited for no dig would be your peas and beans? Broad beans maybe too?
> In my wee garden, I leave some brassicas over winter, and I leave some autumn leaves/garden debris for insects to overwinter in. Of course, the slugs hide in there too


Because they're beautiful Pat.. 

And they give the soil a break from other species , add organic matter - because you don't remove the plant material as with a harvested crop ..


Things like undersown maize, the clover is drilled at the same time as the maize
the clover starts to come into its own after maize harvest..

Overwintering rye would do fine sown in autumn in Scotland, 
To kill it off in the spring, just lay black plastic over it for two or three weeks and it will die down , and the worms will take it in, or plant through the residue left in place as a mulch , if you don't want to dig it in..


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## gbb (21 Apr 2022)

The sight of a 'fen blow' is quite sobering when you consider the soil being moved through the air. 
Despite working 7 years in Chatteris, I only saw one but I'm sure there are many more and many tonnes of earth moved with each one. Now Reynard mentions it, it is a feature in places where the fields are way below the road level, id never considered why ?


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## mudsticks (21 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> The sight of a 'fen blow' is quite sobering when you consider the soil being moved through the air.
> Despite working 7 years in Chatteris, I only saw one but I'm sure there are many more and many tonnes of earth moved with each one. Now Reynard mentions it, it is a feature in places where the fields are way below the road level, id never considered why ?



It's a major problem in agriculture world wide.

Continuous intensive arable - which of course includes intensive monocrop vegetables is a major cause of soil loss.

And without soil, we're stuffed.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...oil-acutely-degraded-due-to-agriculture-study

This is one reason why well managed grazing animals integrated into our ag systems are so useful, they build soil.

All the research, and practical experience points to more sensibly scaled, agroecological approaches, with more mixed cropping, and minimised tillage, being the sustainable way forward.


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## T4tomo (21 Apr 2022)

its one of the many issues that commerical farming as bastards like tesco etc driving down prices have caused and farms have had to go more specialised / larger / more productive.

way back when a farmer had a bit of everything, dairy, sheet, arable, stock raised for meat etc and field naturally got rotated. crop rotation and the benefits for the soil has been around since the middle ages or earlier.

but if you have a 1000 acres of wheat growing in East Anglia, then once the wheat is harvested you should plant a cover crop for the winter otherwise the soil quality diminishes and half the soil blows away.

I grew up on a small mixed hill farm, so most of the land was only suitable for grazing / hay making, but we did "move" the turnip / potato field every year, and I recall we'd also grow grazing kale for the dairy herd, I think that after we gave up bothering to try and grow our own oats as they never did that well.


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## mudsticks (21 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> its one of the many issues that commerical farming as bastards like tesco etc driving down prices have caused and farms have had to go more specialised / larger / more productive.
> 
> way back when a farmer had a bit of everything, dairy, sheet, arable, stock raised for meat etc and field naturally got rotated. crop rotation and the benefits for the soil has been around since the middle ages or earlier.
> 
> ...



The lie is that bigger is better, and more 'productive' or even more 'efficient'

If you look at the levels of good nutrition coming off smaller mixed integrated farms it's actually more per yield hectare, less waste, and better quality food than larger industrialised operations.


Particularly when you factor in external consequences of that industrialised ag.

The inputs required, and pollution caused by those one hit monoculture yields are massive.


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## Oldhippy (21 Apr 2022)

This is a really excellent and informative thread.


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## T4tomo (21 Apr 2022)

There was quite a good item on country file a week or three back on more "natural" farming vs intensive & use of artificial fertilisers etc. the natural farming guy was getting almost as good a yields as Adam do-dah was, who was spending a fortune on nitrogen etc.


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## mudsticks (21 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> There was quite a good item on country file a week or three back on more "natural" farming vs intensive & use of artificial fertilisers etc. the natural farming guy was getting almost as good a yields as Adam do-dah was, who was spending a fortune on nitrogen etc.


Yup even when I was at ag' college in the late eighties and nearly all teaching materials were supplied by ICI, there was the occasional brave lecturer who would dare to mention lower input systems, and on farm nutrient recycling .

That and influence from other early adopters of organic methods , sent me down that 'alternative' path .
Much of which of course was age old wisdom, and observation of natural systems.

It works, it requires different skills and mindset, but it works.

Theres now the spectre of the biotech, and other industries trying to monetise the 'agroecological, and regenerative' way .
By coopting some of the language*, but not so much the ethos.

If you get it right, there's not much to sell us..
And that's why big ag which is associated with big chem, isn't so keen..

Not much to sell us.

*A bit like 'sustainable' got so over used, that it became meaningless.


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## Reynard (21 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> The sight of a 'fen blow' is quite sobering when you consider the soil being moved through the air.
> Despite working 7 years in Chatteris, I only saw one but I'm sure there are many more and many tonnes of earth moved with each one. Now Reynard mentions it, it is a feature in places where the fields are way below the road level, id never considered why ?



i don't see nearly as many of them as I used to when I first moved out this way from that there Londinium (I'm a Cockney by birth), which is a good thing. I'd like to think it comes down to raised awareness of what causes them and changing farming practices accordingly.

We still do see the odd one in late winter and early spring, mainly when it's been very dry. Less so in the autumn months now.

They are not very nice to be caught cycling in. It's like cycling in a sand blaster, and the soil gets right into your skin.


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## twentysix by twentyfive (21 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Probs a silly question, but why grow sunflowers





mudsticks said:


> Because they're beautiful Pat..


Also they bring in the bees/insects AND, if left, the birds (tits and finches) take the seeds during the winter. In my little patch I let them self seed from that bird activity and plant my veg around the up coming seedlings.


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## mudsticks (21 Apr 2022)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> Also they bring in the bees/insects AND, if left, the birds (tits and finches) take the seeds during the winter. In my little patch I let them self seed from that bird activity and plant my veg around the up coming seedlings.



Yes I forgot to mention about it being such good forage food for pollinators..

The hives here are generally busy and full .
The hedges and windreaks are well populated with bats that feast on the bugs

And the sunflowers seed heads being food for overwintering birds.

There were large mixed bunches of finches that would fly up off them overwinter, whenever you went past 

Almost like a murmuration of starlings..

Much of this bird and buglife provides pollination services for crops, and is part of the natural pest control, that gets on with sorting out any excessive populations of anything.

All that symbiosis takes a while to establish, if you've converted from a system that was heavily reliant on chemical controls, but after a bit, it just seems to self regulate.


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## Reynard (21 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> All that symbiosis takes a while to establish, if you've converted from a system that was heavily reliant on chemical controls, but after a bit, it just seems to self regulate.



This is exactly what I've found out. 

Just wish there were enough things out here that like slugs. I know I've got hedgies because the poops are unmistakeable, but still...


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## mudsticks (21 Apr 2022)

Reynard said:


> This is exactly what I've found out.
> 
> Just wish there were enough things out here that like slugs. I know I've got hedgies because the poops are unmistakeable, but still...


Ground beetles also eat slugs, and some birds do too. 

But yes some years can be worse than others.

On a garden scale, or in seedling propagation areas, a head torch and a pair of scissors at night, can really reduce the population significantly... 😇


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## KnittyNorah (21 Apr 2022)

My ducks used to enjoy eating slugs ... just sayin' ...
The thing is with ducks, although they've got big flat feet, they don't scratch up like hens do, so don't do as much damage to your plants once they (the plants) have got a bit of size to them (which can be a disadvantage if you want an area cleared of weeds and well tilled ...). So on a garden or allotment size plot, a few hens and a few ducks, moved around as you see fit and according to what needs doing, are a really great help. 
Rather like mixed farming in miniature!


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## Pat "5mph" (21 Apr 2022)

twentysix by twentyfive said:


> Also they bring in the bees/insects AND, if left, the birds (tits and finches) take the seeds during the winter. In my little patch I let them self seed from that bird activity and plant my veg around the up coming seedlings.


Oh, I didn't know the birds eat the seeds in winter: I will do as you this season 
I've already lots of pollinators visiting, because I grow lots of flowering herbs and borage.
This year I'm upping the ornamental flowers for extra pollinators feeding stations.
Today I have split my surplus seeds into labelled bags, I have created a seed bank for the community.
Because I'm the Co-op's local community champion (member pioneer lol!) I have put the seeds in the Co-op, then advertised in on social media.
Had a great response, it seems people were looking for something like this.
Oh, and I had a right laugh at Huw Richard, the Welsh YouTube gardener: his latest video, 10 veg that survive frost, mentions Cime di Rapa, an Italian kind of mini broccoli.
He admitted he was mispronouncing them 
I have a big bag of Cime di Rapa seeds sent to me from Italy, I've put a couple of small bags in the seed bank, wonder if they will be taken 
I am off my main job till Monday now: got a heap of woodchips, 2 bulk bags of compost, one bulk bag of horse manure ... and a hedge to trim.
What more can a woman ask from life? Decent weather! 
(Well, I've already got 4 bikes )


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## KnittyNorah (21 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Oh, I didn't know the birds eat the seeds in winter: I will do as you this season


IME the seed heads never get to the winter unless you cut them and hang them safe from birds and beasties to dry - the seeds get eaten out of them LONG before winter arrives! Maybe I never grew enough - only an allotment's border's worth, not a field's!


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## mudsticks (21 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> My ducks used to enjoy eating slugs ... just sayin' ...
> The thing is with ducks, although they've got big flat feet, they don't scratch up like hens do, so don't do as much damage to your plants once they (the plants) have got a bit of size to them (which can be a disadvantage if you want an area cleared of weeds and well tilled ...). So on a garden or allotment size plot, a few hens and a few ducks, moved around as you see fit and according to what needs doing, are a really great help.
> Rather like mixed farming in miniature!



Yes I've run ducks through my (empty) polytunnels with great success in the past .

Not only do they fossick for all the slugs and snails, they also take all the eggs of the aforementioned..
Breaking the lifecycle very effectively .

I've had subsequent basil crops so 'perfect' in terms of no slug or snail damage , that people couldn't believe it was 'organically grown' basil 🙂 

Unfortunately foxy loxy is also very keen on ducky snax.. So they are 'no longer with us'.

Not all 'wildlife' is so very welcome..

Badgers getting into the sweetcorn is also a right royal pita..
Electric fencing is the only thing that will stop them..😕


Pat 5mph said:


> Oh, I didn't know the birds eat the seeds in winter: I will do as you this season
> I've already lots of pollinators visiting, because I grow lots of flowering herbs and borage.
> This year I'm upping the ornamental flowers for extra pollinators feeding stations.
> Today I have split my surplus seeds into labelled bags, I have created a seed bank for the community.
> ...


Lots of stuff going on there Pat.. 😊

I wouldn't be surprised if you get #2 son in yr area..If he's not been around already ..


I tried Cimi de Rapa for a couple of springs but found it went to seed too quickly..

Up your way it might be a bit less keen to have babies so soon..

Four bikes is just the perfect no.

Imo


Until you _need_ a fifth of course...


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## Reynard (21 Apr 2022)

I have five bikes...  (two are in bits, but still...)

And yes, I've discovered that slugs are very fond of basil. Ergo I keep the planter on top of the wood bins. I bought a couple of ready-to-go plants on yellow sticker in Tesco last weekend. Those will keep me going all summer. 

Parsley and mint also beginning to "wake up" - can't beat fresh herbs from the garden. Oh yes, and I now have a bay tree as well, but that's staying in a planter. I know how big they can get if you plant them in open soil...


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## KnittyNorah (21 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Yes I've run ducks through my (empty) polytunnels with great success in the past .
> 
> Not only do they fossick for all the slugs and snails, they also take all the eggs of the aforementioned..
> Breaking the lifecycle very effectively .
> ...



I found my ducks preferred snails to slugs, and preferred their eggs over either as adults. But even if they're not that keen on big fat juicy slugs, they still kill them very efficiently even if it's only by fighting over them with each other - if one gets something the others HAVE to try to get a bit of it as well, so the slugs get torn to death even if they're not eaten! Having an 'outdoor' Jack Russell (he was traumatised by something in his past and did not do at all well inside the house ...) prevented Mr and Mrs Fox making a meal of the Misses Puddleducks ... He had a cosily-furnished kennel right by the duck house, they were shut in at dusk but he was free to come and go, and he was an excellent sentry and nightwatchman.


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## Pat "5mph" (22 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> I tried Cimi de Rapa for a couple of springs but found it went to seed too quickly..


Actually I found the same here. I only started them because a chef friend of mine got me a mega pack of seeds from Italy. We had a very warm April last year, they went to seed.
Then we had frost in May!
I will try again this season, started a batch now, will saw another one at the end of August.
My first frost is usually end October.
I knew about the ducks being eager slugs eaters, but I garden in an urban area, I would be reported .... I can just imagine my big Alfie trying to drag a duck through the cat flap 
Gardening news: today I donated a Marjoram plant to another gardening group.
They asked me for one a few months ago, I propagated a few from the enormous potted one I grew from seed.
I might tour the local restaurants with some fresh cooking herbs for sale 
Well, I've got loads of herbs the supermarkets don't sell fresh here: marjoram, thyme, oregano, tarragon (the French one too).


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## mudsticks (22 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Actually I found the same here. I only started them because a chef friend of mine got me a mega pack of seeds from Italy. We had a very warm April last year, they went to seed.
> Then we had frost in May!
> I will try again this season, started a batch now, will saw another one at the end of August.
> My first frost is usually end October.
> ...


Oooh yes, I love French tarragon..
Most excellent with buttered carrots.. 

I wonder if the cimi de rapa might well be better for later in the season, after the longest day..

More likely to concentrate on making leaves and shoots then rather than flowers, and seeds.. 

I saw a cat crossing the road with a poor wriggling slow worm this morning, and was reminded of how much they like eating slugs too..

Not sure if it's too cool for them in Scotland

Toads also
..we have some beautiful ones living in the polytunnels here..


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## oldwheels (22 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Oooh yes, I love French tarragon..
> Most excellent with buttered carrots..
> 
> I wonder if the cimi de rapa might well be better for later in the season, after the longest day..
> ...



Regarding slow worms. I have them in my garden on Mull so not too cold. Also got a few toads.
To keep slugs and snails away from things planted in tubs I put a smear of grease round the tub which acts as a barrier.


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## KnittyNorah (22 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Toads also
> ..we have some beautiful ones living in the polytunnels here..
> 
> View attachment 641274



I LOVE toads.


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## mudsticks (22 Apr 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I LOVE toads.



Me too.
So beautiful..
And useful 🙂

Whatever you do .
Don't kiss em..

The last thing we need is more Princes about the place..🙄





Peas nearly ready..

But I have to confess to snacking on the tender tips already..💚💜💚


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## Reynard (22 Apr 2022)

's ok... I prefer racing drivers to princes... 

Tarragon is fabulous with fish and chicken too, btw 

The herb I sometimes grow is chervil because I definitely can't get it here. It makes a fabby "green soup" teamed with young lettuce and peas - a Belgian specialty, especially with meatballs in it.


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## Pat "5mph" (23 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Not sure if it's too cool for them in Scotland


We have slow worms here, mind, both my cats wouldn't be seen dead with one in their mouth 
With a toad, on the other hand ...  
Gardening news: my French Beans are finally sprouting, my peas are not nearly as big as yours @mudsticks Some perennial I planted last year (forgot the name) had multiplied like crazy, hopefully the flowers are nice so I can swap the off springs for something else.
My indoor tomatoes really need in the ground, but I must put up their shelter first (a basic plastic structure) because at night it's still quite cold, around 4/5C.
I have been shovelling and spreading my free woodchips since Friday, this must be the 4th lorryload I have shifted myself since summer 2020 
The kids don't want me to shift them because they like to play on them, while some adults have complained.
My loading bay is accessed from a field, it's to boggy now for a lorry, so I got them unloaded in an empty green, where usually people dump furniture.
Nobody ever complained about the furniture left there for months on end!
I put a Facebook post out for everyone to help themselves to the chips, told neighbours.
Today a woman said no thanks, too messy.
She has covered her driveway in fake grass!! 
COP26 ... did it really happen?


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## annedonnelly (23 Apr 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> She has covered her driveway in fake grass!!
> COP26 ... did it really happen?



Don't start me on plastic grass!!! Saw a bloke combing his the other day. With a rake about the size of an ice scraper for the car. How long was that going to take him!?? 

Would it really be more work to have a patch of real grass with a few daisies and dandelions? And maybe something crazy like bees or butterflies!


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## mudsticks (23 Apr 2022)

Pat "5mph" said:


> We have slow worms here, mind, both my cats wouldn't be seen dead with one in their mouth
> With a toad, on the other hand ...
> Gardening news: my French Beans are finally sprouting, my peas are not nearly as big as yours @mudsticks Some perennial I planted last year (forgot the name) had multiplied like crazy, hopefully the flowers are nice so I can swap the off springs for something else.
> My indoor tomatoes really need in the ground, but I must put up their shelter first (a basic plastic structure) because at night it's still quite cold, around 4/5C.
> ...



Good to hear about the slow worms, aren't they handsome .. And helpful 👍🏼

My French beans are about a week too big really as we still have potential frosts here, up to and including the first week of May.
They're going to have to have 'double covers' outside if it gets too cold. 

Well I guess not everyone sees the same 'beauty' or utility in a pile of steaming woodchip as you or I might.. 

Having been in the 'environmental' game for a long long time now I've realised there's not really much point getting frustrated at other peoples indifference, or even hostility..

You get little breakthroughs now and then, and the 'conversation' around it all is far more informed , and in the mainstream than it ever used to be.

I was impressed at how friendly and accepting the good folk of Glasgow generally were, when us eco-freaks 'invaded' for 2 weeks last November.


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## Pat "5mph" (23 Apr 2022)

annedonnelly said:


> Would it really be more work to have a patch of real grass with a few daisies and dandelions? And maybe something crazy like bees or butterflies!


The woman said fake was much tidier 
Then again, the chair of my gardening group tried to grow strawberries on fake grass 
I have discovered there's gardeners that only want pretty flowers in pretty pots with the minimum of effort, then there's the likes of me, that want big cabbages fed with horse manure 


mudsticks said:


> Well I guess not everyone sees the same 'beauty' or utility in a pile of steaming woodchip as you or I might..


Aye, but I live in a housing scheme where rubbish piled up for months is not unusual, wanna compare with woodchips? 
Anyhow, as I said, the kids are loving playing in the woodchips.
Watch this space as I get another load delivered in the same place, to build a play area around a few pallets, hehe.
At the moment, all those kids have is an old car tyre hanging from a tree.
Once I asked the local councillor why there are no playparks in the scheme, he said people object 
Guerrilla playpark?  😄


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## Pat "5mph" (24 Apr 2022)

Evening!
Today's garden news:
I gave next door's roses grower free access of my bulk bag of horse manure, he was delighted.
I made another big dent in the woodchip pile, another member of my gardening group needs them, but he's away on holiday. Just as well I'm back at work tomorrow, or he won't find any left 
I planted a heap of calendulas in a broken wheelbarrow left behind by construction workers, I gave a good dressing of horse manure to blueberries, strawberries and fruit trees.
Best of all, free, organic, no carbon footprint, purple sprouting broccoli for my lunch!
I need to improve the farmhand working conditions: never had my lunch till 4pm, my back is sore from all the shovelling, the cart supplied is clearly a hazard as a wheel is missing


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## mudsticks (25 Apr 2022)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Evening!
> Today's garden news:
> I gave next door's roses grower free access of my bulk bag of horse manure, he was delighted.
> I made another big dent in the woodchip pile, another member of my gardening group needs them, but he's away on holiday. Just as well I'm back at work tomorrow, or he won't find any left
> ...




Today's farm news ..
So far.
Planted put 4th sowing of lettuce and agretti..

600 plants approx.

final bed prep for spring sowings of yellow and red beets, cultivate and spread compost. .

Potting on the chilli's..Only about 60 or so plants total, as there's only so much tunnel space.. 

About to get the flail mower on the tractor so I can mash up the PSB* - sorry bees as it's flowering nicely, but I need that ground..

*I think ours finishes earlier on account of the warmer temps here..
Kale florets are a nice substitute for psb though . 

Could do with a bit more rain..

Edited to add .

Mind yr back @Pat -
In my 'other job' I see a lot of cricked spines from overdoing it in the spring .

I've half a mind to send the boy over to help..
He at least knows one end of a shovel from t'other . 😇


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## Pat "5mph" (25 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Kale florets are a nice substitute for psb though .


Aye, I've got a few on the go. Must hurry to net them before the cabbage moth arrives, usually in June here, but I already have found a caterpillar.
Here it has been warm(her) too, trouble with Scotland is today can be sunny, 15C, tomorrow heil stones.
What's a plant got to do??


mudsticks said:


> In my 'other job' I see a lot of cricked spines from overdoing it in the spring .


All good, since 2020 this must be the 4th or 5th lorryload of woodchips I have shifted.
Must keep up with the weightbearing exercises, at my age, you know 
Today I've put my seed potatoes in the ground, well in 2 containers plus some in the ground.
I've also transplanted some aquilegia, I didn't read the instructions, now I realize they won't flower till next year 
This last couple of days I have learned:
leek is easier direct sown, instead of in modules
iceberg lettuce can be planted outside, can stay exposed to Scottish winter weather, then in spring starts to make a beautiful head.
Maybe that's why it's called iceberg, must originate from some cold mountain.
Wee flower shoots like pansy or aquilegia dry out if put under a plastic cloche and you forget to water them, even in Scotland


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## T4tomo (26 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Potting on the chilli's..



so what do chillis like, sunlight window ledge, being outside, little water, lots of water ? got a couple of plants in pots from FiL and they don't look very happy.


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## mudsticks (26 Apr 2022)

T4tomo said:


> so what do chillis like, sunlight window ledge, being outside, little water, lots of water ? got a couple of plants in pots from FiL and they don't look very happy.



Don't put them outside til the 3rd week in May at the earliest..Depends where you are , and even then they prefer protection of a cloche.

They like heat and sunlight .
They do well down here in the southwest in a polytunnel , they can manage outside but they won't be so happy, or productive. 

If you don't have a greenhouse or conservatory, then give them the sunniest windowsill, keep turning it for maximum sunlight, but bear in mind that the windowsill can get cold against the window, at night behind the curtains , so maybe bring it inside the room at night..until all risk of frost is gone..

Thinking about it, is your fil just trying to keep you busy for some reason ?? 😇


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## T4tomo (26 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Don't put them outside til the 3rd week in May at the earliest..Depends where you are , and even then they prefer protection of a cloche.
> 
> They like heat and sunlight .
> They do well down here in the southwest in a polytunnel , they can manage outside but they won't be so happy, or productive.
> ...



right, so maybe the kitchen window sill isn't sunny enough, I shall relocate them. He moves in mysterious ways, so maybe?


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## simongt (26 Apr 2022)

annedonnelly said:


> Saw a bloke combing his the other day. With a rake about the size of an ice scraper for the car. How long was that going to take him!??


On a similar vein, as jankers punishment, my German teacher at school was tasked wiith cutting the CO's lawn with a pair of scissors when he was doing National Service - !


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## gbb (29 Apr 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Today's farm news ..
> So far.
> Planted put 4th sowing of lettuce and agretti..
> 
> ...



Making my back ache just reading that


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## mudsticks (29 Apr 2022)

gbb said:


> Making my back ache just reading that




It's mostly been all about the tall brassicas this back end of the week. 

Hundreds of sprouts, psb, and kalettes gone in and lots of preliminary cultivations.

If it wasn't for the yoga I'd have been broken in two years ago.. 

Soon it will be time for planting out - in the polytunnel - all the aubergines peppers basil and toms 😋

Then 800 or so squash plants outside, celeriac, flat parsley.. red cabbage...

But first a couple of days off* out and about walking and camping coast and country with my bf..
I try not to work 7 days a week, even at the busy times - not good for anyone.


*self diagnosed inability to sit still for more than half a day at a time...


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## Reynard (29 Apr 2022)

I've just had lunch, and you're making me hungry again...


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## simongt (29 Apr 2022)

With fruit & veg, I stick to my local greengrocer, who being a two person outfit; him and his GLW, they source mostly locally / British and also can pick and choose who they buy from and what they buy.


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## Pat "5mph" (29 Apr 2022)

@simongt we don't have green grocers in my area, neither in nearby areas or in the city.
There is an (mostly Asian food shopping) area that has lots of green grocers, but they source their fresh produce from the main veg market.
I'm not sure where those veg come from originally, as the shops sell them from crates, no country of origin visible.
Tesco today: 69p punnet of white grapes ... from India.
September/October is the grape season on the continent, but Portuguese red grapes are already in Tesco, at double the price of the Indian ones.
More carbon footprint, cheaper grapes


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## simongt (3 May 2022)

Was in Waitrose today; my dear sisters choice for shopping, not mine - ! Noticed Dragon fruit from Vietnam and mangoes from Peru. 
Suppose folk want, folk get, do they really care where something is from - ?


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## Reynard (3 May 2022)

I've tried dragon fruit when it's been on sticker, and it's distinctly uninspiring. I had much more fun growing cacti from the seeds. (It's a species of Opuntia if my memory hasn't failed me.)

Stuff that's been shipped (oranges, bananas, mangoes, pears) in chilled containers is still more environmentally friendly than something that's been flown in. I don't mind for things that the UK can't grow, but if it's something that can be grown here, then I very rarely* buy it out of season.

* on yellow sticker, all bets are off...


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## Pat "5mph" (3 May 2022)

I was sent a food survey by the Zoe Covid19 app, they are researching links between diet and menopause symptoms. I should not have filled it, because I'm well past it  
Anyhow, the questionnaire formulation made me think.
The questions were about what foods have you eaten in the last 3 months, and the frequency of eating them, followed by a long list of fruits and vegetables, then your usual other foods.
Most fruit and veg on the list were out of season in the last 3 months here in the UK, not considering all the exotic produce that we can't grow.
My thoughts are:
If we, as a nation, decide to use more home grown, hence a more limited variety of foods, will this affect our health?
Has the Spanish imported 20p broccoli the same nutritional value that home grown, low carbon footprint, possibly organic(ish) broccoli has? Of course not, fresher keeps nutrients better, would we need to eat a bigger amount of said imported broccoli? Maybe not consider them as part of a healthy diet?
The Zoe app people work with the NHS: why are the questions not formulated in a way that I can say, well, I never had Strawberries in the last 3 months because the Scottish ones were not on the market yet.


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## mudsticks (3 May 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I was sent a food survey by the Zoe Covid19 app, they are researching links between diet and menopause symptoms. I should not have filled it, because I'm well past it
> Anyhow, the questionnaire formulation made me think.
> The questions were about what foods have you eaten in the last 3 months, and the frequency of eating them, followed by a long list of fruits and vegetables, then your usual other foods.
> Most fruit and veg on the list were out of season in the last 3 months here in the UK, not considering all the exotic produce that we can't grow.
> ...



You're right to be concerned about the nutritional value of our foods.

Industrial agriculture is primarily concerned with yield, ie tonnage, speed of growth, transportabilty and shelf life / shelf appearance.

Nutrition, and even taste come far down the list of attributes, given they do not directly affect profits in the same way.

Add to that the degradation of soils due to over cultivation, and pesticides, and herbicides used, ..

Not such a pretty picture of once you look beneath the skin..

https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/follow-the-food/why-modern-food-lost-its-nutrients/ 

Even if all else was equal (and it isn't) your home grown PSB will far outstrip the Spanish stuff, just because nutrients start to be lost as soon as it is harvested.. 








First batch of sweet peppers going in today.. 😊


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## Pat "5mph" (3 May 2022)

mudsticks said:


> First batch of sweet peppers going in today..


Outside??? 
Edit: I can see now they are in a polytunnel, I feel less envious


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## Reynard (3 May 2022)

Ah, you should've passed that one on to me @Pat "5mph" 

I think I've had one punnet of strawberries since the tail end of September - bought on sticker, and only then because I could actually smell the "strawberry aroma" through my mask. 

As long as we'd be eating a balanced diet, I think we'd be fine. In the winter, there is a good variety of UK-grown veg available. Off the top of my head, Tesco stocks British carrots, parsnips, cauliflower, sprouts, kale, spring greens, swede, turnip, celeriac, celery, chicory, several varieties of cabbages and, of course, potatoes. Plus I can get stuff locally by the roadside as well.

With a lot of people, it's knowing what to *DO* with the veg that's the issue...

As a historical aside, you only need to look at the WW2 diet on the home front to see what can be done.


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## Pat "5mph" (3 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> With a lot of people, it's knowing what to *DO* with the veg that's the issue...


Agree. I am planning to offer some free homegrown veg to my community.
I'll post on the results.
I have offered small amounts to next door in the past: radishes and raspberries they professed to like, but refused to pick for themselves from the communal patch.
French beans they did not know how to cook.
Cherries from communal trees, the kids thought they were poison, one adult said she would not eat them from "those" (?) trees.


Reynard said:


> As a historical aside, you only need to look at the WW2 diet on the home front to see what can be done.


I am old, but not that old lol
But I know what you mean


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## KnittyNorah (3 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> With a lot of people, it's knowing what to *DO* with the veg that's the issue...


And for some of the most deprived in our population, it's not _just_ the knowing what to do, it's the ability use that knowledge ... someone living in one room in a B&B with a couple of kids in bunk beds, won't be _able _to do much with most of the cheap good stuff around. 
Jack Monroe's cookery books - Tin Can Cook and the like - really have been a game changer for many people on tight budgets, whether they're in grim circumstances or not, but ... low-budget recipes are all well and good for people that can read them, and get to the supermarket on the right bus, and find the right aisle, and read the labels on the tins ... 
I did some voluntary work for a charity and - well - many people can't do any of those things with any degree of confidence. It's easier - less stressful, less anxiety-provoking, less time-consuming - to get a takeaway or, at best, a frozen pizza, a packet of crisps and a packet of biscuits or a synthetic cake from the corner shop ... 

Sad, but there it is.


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## Reynard (3 May 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Cherries from communal trees, the kids thought they were poison, one adult said she would not eat them from "those" (?) trees.



I'll be willing to bet they didn't know that fruit actually grows on trees...



Pat 5mph said:


> I am old, but not that old lol
> But I know what you mean



Sorry...  I'm keen on WW2 history - not just the military stuff, but the home front as well. I once did a "Dig for Victory" themed pen one year at the Supreme (the cat version of Crufts) and won overall Best Decorated Pen. 











P.S. That's my much-missed cat, Pearl.


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## mudsticks (3 May 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> And for some of the most deprived in our population, it's not _just_ the knowing what to do, it's the ability use that knowledge ... someone living in one room in a B&B with a couple of kids in bunk beds, won't be _able _to do much with most of the cheap good stuff around.
> Jack Monroe's cookery books - Tin Can Cook and the like - really have been a game changer for many people on tight budgets, whether they're in grim circumstances or not, but ... low-budget recipes are all well and good for people that can read them, and get to the supermarket on the right bus, and find the right aisle, and read the labels on the tins ...
> I did some voluntary work for a charity and - well - many people can't do any of those things with any degree of confidence. It's easier - less stressful, less anxiety-provoking, less time-consuming - to get a takeaway or, at best, a frozen pizza, a packet of crisps and a packet of biscuits or a synthetic cake from the corner shop ...
> 
> Sad, but there it is.



Yup, 

I know it's usually well meaning, but I get a bit tired of hearing that people on low budgets just need to buy root vegetables , and cheap cuts of meat and make slow cooked casseroles . 

If only it was that simple.. 

There are so many other barriers to people being able to feed themselves, and their families well.

Knowledge, money, facilities, availability of fresh food locally, and the time, and energy if working long hours, and living in poor conditions. 

I remember well myself even after long hard day's growing (other peoples) veg, having scooped the kids up from school, and done all the other necessaries - a frozen pizza for tea was the most I could manage..


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## KnittyNorah (3 May 2022)

mudsticks said:


> I know it's usually well meaning, but I get a bit tired of hearing that people on low budgets just need to buy root vegetables , and cheap cuts of meat and make slow cooked casseroles .
> 
> If only it was that simple..


Indeed. 
Someone said something on those lines to me once, when I mentioned that I was teaching at this charity endeavour which was being held in the kitchens of an old 'institution'. I said oh, so you're going to buy them a slow cooker and paring knives and a washing up bowl, are you, and look after the kids while she goes to the market and scrabbles around for the cheapest veg and some scrag-end? And where are you going to suggest they do the prep in the one room they live in with the three kids running around - should they cut the meat up in the baby's potty, or in the shared hand-basin on the landing ...
'Oh erm I didn't realise' was the response. Give credit where credit is due, though - this person did give a very generous donation to the project I was involved in which enabled useful kitchen equipment to be provided when the families we were working with were allocated housing. BTW this was not in the UK.


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## gbb (4 May 2022)

Looking back at the original question, how do they do it ?
20p piece of broccoli. Maybe 30 pieces in a box, £6
Maybe 60 boxes on a pallet, £360
Maybe 20 pallets of a lorry, £7200, thats at selling prices. 

Just rough calculations, you could get more in a box etc etc but a rule of thumb at work i think is 20 pallets, 60 boxes on a pallet.
Add transport costs, deduct the actual cost of the broccoli, its a really quite low value load I should think. Loss leader perhaps because there can be precious little profit in it surely ?


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## Reynard (4 May 2022)

That wouldn't surprise me if it's a loss-leader @gbb 

Tesco sell marmalade for 27p a jar. That has to be a loss-leader too, I'd imagine by the time you take ingredients, processing, packaging and logistics into account. OK, you've got the economies of scale, but still...

Home made marmalade sets me back about 50p a jar, but then I buy the fruit on sticker or when it's heavily discounted. I don't count my time, and the the jars I have. (I got given loads and save the jars from things I buy.)


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## Pat "5mph" (4 May 2022)

gbb said:


> Add transport costs, deduct the actual cost of the broccoli, its a really quite low value load I should think. Loss leader perhaps because there can be precious little profit in it surely ?


Do you mean loss leader for the producer or for the supermarket?
I know that by transport you mean the supermarket's logistics costs.
I think it was a "veg drive", to complement Asda's latest advertising of being a seller of outstanding fresh produce.
On the by, all the 20p veg are gone now, broccoli is back to 50p - will check the country of origin next time.


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## Roseland triker (4 May 2022)

I don't see why so much fuss.
It's free here on a daily basis.....
If you're prepared to pay 20p then good on ya


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## Pat "5mph" (4 May 2022)

Roseland triker said:


> I don't see why so much fuss.
> It's free here on a daily basis.....
> If you're prepared to pay 20p then good on ya


Fresh produce is free where you live?
The topic of this thread is 20p broccoli from Spain (and other veg too) in our local supermarkets.


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## KnittyNorah (4 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> I'll be willing to bet they didn't know that fruit actually grows on trees...


Apropos of this, after my A-levels I left school in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I went to work for the summer season as a pony trekking instructor/leader at a well known children's activity centre in the Brecon Beacons. It is still going. It was a laugh! 

It was mostly school parties visiting. The kids got a day of pony trekking, a day of hiking, a day of sailing, a day's coach trip to somewhere or other, half a day of rock-climbing/scrambling and half a day of something else - I think it might have been a visit to a farm. I really had nothing to do with the rest of what went on. I just got fifteen ponies ready every day but Saturday, and then looked after ten or twelve kids on them all part of a long string of about 50 - 60 with a leader and a back-marker. The rest of us just rode 'our' ponies up and down this long line, pushing kids who looked like they might be toppling off back on board more securely, rescuing any of those who did actually come off and making mental notes of which kids looked enthusiastic or more competent, as later in the day there would be the opportunity for some 'proper' riding. There were always a few who got upset/scared within the first mile or so, so we took it turns to escort that group back and return them to their resentful accompanying teachers ... 

Anyway one day, my little group was from somewhere in the depths of Birmingham - nice kids. They were curious about everything, and asked many interesting (from their city-dwelling POV) questions. 
One especially observant girl remarked to me, when we'd climbed out of the village and were riding along a pleasant track alongside the sheep-cropped turf of the hillside 'Miss, how does the man get the mower up here to cut the grass? It must be a right big job for him.' Bless!


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## gbb (6 May 2022)

In a similar vein KnittyNora, I used to work with old fella from the old East end. We came across a toad on the floor of our workshop. It was obviously just making its way across our very large site. He was stunned...
WTF is THAT !!!! 
It's a toad Fred 
He pondered it for a minute then said....
Do they bite ? 

60 years old at the time, never saw a frog or toad. He said he never saw a cow till he was around 40.


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## simongt (11 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Home made marmalade sets me back about 50p a jar,


Good for you. A I don't have the space or current resources, I buy all my jams, marmelades & pickles form a local animal charity. More expensive than the shops ( except maybe Waitrose - !  ), but for the quality & taste, worth every penny. And every one of those pennys goes to help the animals in their care. 
Bought a jar of marmelade from Tesco whilst on holiday recently - and was reminded why I stick to the animal charity shops wares - !


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## T4tomo (11 May 2022)

simongt said:


> Good for you. A I don't have the space or current resources, I buy all my jams, marmelades & pickles form a local animal charity. More expensive than the shops ( except maybe Waitrose - !  ), but for the quality & taste, worth every penny. And every one of those pennys goes to help the animals in their care.
> Bought a jar of marmelade from Tesco whilst on holiday recently - and was reminded why I stick to the animal charity shops wares - !



please tell me the jams and pickles are made from fruit and veg, not the animals?

Homemade is best every time, and like you I'd gladly pay for someone else to do the homemaking bit.


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## simongt (11 May 2022)

T4tomo said:


> please tell me the jams and pickles are made from fruit and veg, not the animals?


Oh yes. And the fun of this establishment is that one finds such delights as jumbly jam, banana chutney, Autumn chutney, St. Clement's marmelade; never quite sure what you'll come across - !  Things you definitely won't get in a supermarket.


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## Reynard (11 May 2022)

Well, most of my preserves - not just my marmalade - is made from either yellow sticker, special buy offers or foraged fruit.  Well, mostly, as seville oranges are not easy to come by, never mind on yellow sticker... So it's equally pot luck as to what goes in it. I quite like that, as you never get bored.

Commercial preserves are just way too sweet - sugar is the cheap ingredient, and everything is being made to a price point. I once bought a jar of chutney in Lidl out of curiosity, and i just ended up binning it. It was so sweet to the point of being inedible. And it's bonkers how many preserves use corn starch as well as extra pectin to get them to set. If I'm making jam or jelly with low-pectin fruit I just lob in a few windfall apples. Although I'm lucky that I have a large bramley apple tree in the garden, and access to other free sources of apples.

Home made preserves in general use a lot less sugar than the commercial stuff, so you really get to taste the ingredients as opposed to just overwhelming sweetness.

The only preserve I *don't* make is lemon or orange curd. I love both, but just don't eat enough to make it worthwhile. And because of the butter and egg content, it's got a much shorter shelf life than jam, marmalade or chutney.

I should add (though I don't really like blowing my trumpet) that I'm a champion preserve maker. Have won chutney, jam, marmalade and pickle classes at local produce shows.


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## KnittyNorah (11 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> The only preserve I *don't* make is lemon or orange curd. I love both, but just don't eat enough to make it worthwhile. And because of the butter and egg content, it's got a much shorter shelf life than jam, marmalade or chutney.



I do still make citrus curds - one of the few preserves I still enjoy making - BUT I make it in small quantities _in the microwave _and I don't think I've had a failure yet. Even the very first batch I made - which wasn't perfect, there was a tiny bit of 'graininess' to it - was perfectly edible and far more delicious than the gummy stuff for sale in the shops.


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## Poacher (11 May 2022)

gbb said:


> In a similar vein KnittyNora, I used to work with old fella from the old East end. We came across a toad on the floor of our workshop. It was obviously just making its way across our very large site. He was stunned...
> WTF is THAT !!!!
> It's a toad Fred
> He pondered it for a minute then said....
> ...


But why do east-enders go on about "driving up the frog and toad"?


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## Reynard (11 May 2022)

Poacher said:


> But why do east-enders go on about "driving up the frog and toad"?



Well, I'm gonna climb the apples and pears in a minute...


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## Reynard (11 May 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> I do still make citrus curds - one of the few preserves I still enjoy making - BUT I make it in small quantities _in the microwave _and I don't think I've had a failure yet. Even the very first batch I made - which wasn't perfect, there was a tiny bit of 'graininess' to it - was perfectly edible and far more delicious than the gummy stuff for sale in the shops.



That's a new one on me... How'd you do it? Definitely be willing to give it a punt. 

It's what I love about CC - every day is a school day.


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## KnittyNorah (11 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> That's a new one on me... How'd you do it? Definitely be willing to give it a punt.
> 
> It's what I love about CC - every day is a school day.



Usual recipe of your choice ie butter, sugar, whole egg and egg yolk, citrus juice and zest.

Bowl suitable for microwave use, wooden spoon, wire whisk or hand mixer and an accurate thermometer - digital for preference.

Put butter into bowl, place in microwave and give short blasts - 10 - 30 secs - stirring in between blasts, until it's just melted. Allow to cool for a few minutes so that it's not hot but merely warm, while still being melted. Add all the other ingredients and whisk well. I usually add them gradually, blending them smooth with the wooden spoon then whisking.
Microwave in short blasts, whisking well between blasts and measuring the temperature. I usually start with a couple of 30 sec blasts then cut the duration of each blast down, depending on the amount I'm making. The total time it takes will depend on your microwave and how much you are making, just be sure not to use too long a cooking interval - that is the way to get scrambled egg. Shorter is better, you will see the temperature creeping up when you measure it after each blast
Keep doing this until until the curd has thickened so it coats the back of the wooden spoon, and has reached a temperature of 185 F *OR* 85 C.
DO NOT overcook.

Pour into sterilised jars, cover, cool and store in the fridge. It will thicken and set up as it cools, in the same way that a custard does.

Points to note :
Use a much bigger bowl than you think you might need. Actually I use a large plastic jug. You don't want it more than about a quarter to a third full, and having a handle on it helps.
If you have a silicon whisk, that's the best one to use. Metal whisks can sometimes leave a slightly metallic tang in the finished curd.
DO NOT overcook or you will scramble the egg. The thing is basically an acidic custard.
You can strain the curd while pouring into the jars; this will remove any tiny bits of scrambled egg and also the zest (if you don't like it).
It will keep for about 2 weeks to a month in the fridge, unopened, or you can freeze it for about 6 months. Give it about an inch headroom in the container and defrost overnight in the fridge.
If the curd you make is a bit too runny, you can make the next one thicker by increasing the proportion of yolks to whole eggs.

Enjoy it!


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## Reynard (11 May 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Usual recipe of your choice ie butter, sugar, whole egg and egg yolk, citrus juice and zest.
> 
> Bowl suitable for microwave use, wooden spoon, wire whisk or hand mixer and an accurate thermometer - digital for preference.
> 
> ...



Ta very much 

Could use that method to make one jar at a time - to scratch the itch, like...


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## KnittyNorah (11 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Ta very much
> 
> Could use that method to make one jar at a time - to scratch the itch, like...



That's exactly what I do. Make a few small-size jars or pots, put two of them in the freezer, one in the fridge and use the bowl scrapings up that same day or the next.


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## KnittyNorah (11 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Ta very much
> 
> Could use that method to make one jar at a time - to scratch the itch, like...



BTW depending on the accuracy of your thermometer (worth testing in water at a rolling boil ...) and also on the amount of heat held by the bowl or jug or whatever you use, you might need to stop heating, or continue heating, for a half or one or two degrees more or less than the 85 degC quoted. No more, and keep a note of it so you will know where best to 'stop' next time.


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## Reynard (11 May 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> BTW depending on the accuracy of your thermometer (worth testing in water at a rolling boil ...) and also on the amount of heat held by the bowl or jug or whatever you use, you might need to stop heating, or continue heating, for a half or one or two degrees more or less than the 85 degC quoted. No more, and keep a note of it so you will know where best to 'stop' next time.



I have a sugar thermometer, left over from when I used to make my own sweets. That'll do.


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## mudsticks (12 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Ta very much
> 
> Could use that method to make one jar at a time - to scratch the itch, like...



My mum used to swear by microwave lemon curd, and I can totally see how it's a more efficient use of energy, and probs time too.

But for me gently stirring the bowl of yellow gloop as it thickens is part of the magic. 

I will make quite a lot, and then everyone gobbles it up dolloped onto freshly made drop scones .

So storage is rarely an issue 

Having an 'oversupply' of fresh free range eggs is a bit of a luxury I know.

You can buy boxes of straight from the farm unsprayed oranges and lemons too.

I've not done that yet, but people I know who have, say they're _really_ good


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## Reynard (12 May 2022)

Part of the problem is it's just me who eats it. And umm...

It's one of the reasons I don't bake so much either.



Lemon curd ice cream is totally lush, btw...


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## mudsticks (12 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> Part of the problem is it's just me who eats it. And umm...
> 
> It's one of the reasons I don't bake so much either.
> 
> ...



I don't suppose you'd be short of takers, if you instigated a lemon curd eating club 🙂

Yes lemon curd ice-cream is very good


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2022)

mudsticks said:


> You can buy boxes of straight from the farm unsprayed oranges and lemons too.


Do citrus fruit trees grow in England?
I didn't know that.
A quick Google tells me they need to be grown in pots, so you can move them to a frost free place in winter.
Would a farmer be bothered?
Would the fruit be very expensive, is this the reason why we don't see English citrus fruits in supermarkets?


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## KnittyNorah (12 May 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> Do citrus fruit trees grow in England?
> I didn't know that.
> A quick Google tells me they need to be grown in pots, so you can move them to a frost free place in winter.
> Would a farmer be bothered?
> Would the fruit be very expensive, is this the reason why we don't see English citrus fruits in supermarkets?



No they come from Spain (and maybe Portugal).


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> No they come from Spain (and maybe Portugal).


I meant the ones @mudsticks says you can get from the farm unwaxed, to make your curd, along with the free range eggs


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## Reynard (12 May 2022)

I did have an orange tree in a pot that the parental unit grew from a pip. (Mum is VERY green fingered. I am not.)

All I ever got off it was greenfly and thorns.


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## KnittyNorah (12 May 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I meant the ones @mudsticks says you can get from the farm unwaxed, to make your curd, along with the free range eggs



Yes those are the ones. There are a few suppliers who advertise. The farms are in Spain and different ones sell different fruits and different weights of cases. I don't know whether they ship them or post them or whatm but the supply lines are fast and efficient, it's just the final few miles here in the UK that will be expensive and time-consuming - an opportunity ripe for the plucking by an eco-friendly delivery service!


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> I did have an orange tree in a pot that the parental unit grew from a pip. (Mum is VERY green fingered. I am not.)
> 
> All I ever got off it was greenfly and thorns.


The potted citrus trees garden centres sell here say on the label that the fruit is not edible, not that I'm daft enough to buy one 
I think citrus fruit trees need to be innested (wrong spelling, maybe even wrong word lol) with another already producing tree.
Citrus fruits grown from a seed of a citrus fruit in are not edible afaik, I think cherries maybe like that?
Like all apples come from the crab apple before the tree is injected with an edible apple tree?


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## KnittyNorah (12 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> I did have an orange tree in a pot that the parental unit grew from a pip. (Mum is VERY green fingered. I am not.)
> 
> All I ever got off it was greenfly and thorns.



'S like growing apple trees from an apple pip ... you don't know what you'll get! Some of them make nice foliage plants tho. Better to get a tree from a pro grower if you want to harvest fruit from it. I had a kumquat tree for several years which was quite prolific and there are some varieties of lemon which are semi-hardy. A couple of years ago I got to know a Moroccan bloke who was retired and who'd been working over here in horticulture on the Fylde since the 1960s; he grew olive trees, citrus and all sorts of other mediterranean things in his garden AND got crops from them - but only by treating each plant as a little individual; as he said, he enjoyed doing it as a retirement hobby but it would never be a practical proposition so far north.


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## KnittyNorah (12 May 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> The potted citrus trees garden centres sell here say on the label that the fruit is not edible, not that I'm daft enough to buy one
> I think citrus fruit trees need to be innested (wrong spelling, maybe even wrong word lol) with another already producing tree.
> Citrus fruits grown from a seed of a citrus fruit in are not edible afaik, I think cherries maybe like that?
> Like all apples come from the crab apple before the tree is injected with an edible apple tree?



You are thinking of grafting wrt apples and pears. The variety eg Cox Orange Pippin is grafted onto a rootstock which controls the vigour of the tree - so if you want eg fast growing trees that will stay small , you graft them onto one sort of rootstock, and if you want something fast growing and big, you graft it onto another, and if you want it medium size you use a different one again ... The rootstocks are specially bred and grown apple plants which are grown specifically for size, vigour, and so on, and provide the 'foundation' on which the 'variety' of apple can grow. This also applies to pears, plums, cherries etc. This is how you can buy a tree which will grow eating apples on one part of it and cooking apples on the other part of it. Someone has grafted a branch of eg Coxes Orange Pippin on one side of it and eg Bramley on the other side of it, so the different branches grow different fruits.

I presume something similar happens with citrus.

It's not so much that the fruits from a seed-grown tree are 'inedible' it's that you don't know WHAT they will be like, they might be sour or bitter or oddly shaped or never ripen, or something. Breeders of new varieties of eg apple trees, roses etc etc will grow hundreds or thousands of seeds for years and years to find one which might possibly be developed into a new 'breed'; most of them are useless.


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## Reynard (12 May 2022)

You can buy fruit trees with two or three different varieties grafted onto a rootstock. The downside with some of them is that they don't always choose varieties that can pollinate each other, resulting in either no or very poor crops.

I have one of those - Jonagold and Golden Delicious. The latter is the parent of the former, and they can't pollinate each other. Fortunately I have other apple varieties, but in a small garden, I can imagine people being a bit bemused at the lack of fruit.


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## mudsticks (12 May 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I meant the ones @mudsticks says you can get from the farm unwaxed, to make your curd, along with the free range eggs


Yes sorry i meant you can buy direct from growers, and co ops in southern Europe.

You would need big heated greenhouses and permanently planted trees to produce any quantity of citrus here, even in the balmy south.

It would cost a fortune.


KnittyNorah said:


> Yes those are the ones. There are a few suppliers who advertise. The farms are in Spain and different ones sell different fruits and different weights of cases. I don't know whether they ship them or post them or whatm but the supply lines are fast and efficient, it's just the final few miles here in the UK that will be expensive and time-consuming - an opportunity ripe for the plucking by an eco-friendly delivery service!


I'm not sure if they're doing it with citrus yet but there have been some companies, shipping by sail things like olive oil..

The idea being very low carbon delivery.

Nice idea, and makes a point about food miles etc, but will probs be a while, and diesel prices will have to rise a lot before it becomes a commonplace.


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## KnittyNorah (12 May 2022)

mudsticks said:


> Yes sorry i meant you can buy direct from growers, and co ops in southern Europe.
> 
> You would need big heated greenhouses and permanently planted trees to produce any quantity of citrus here, even in the balmy south.
> 
> ...



It makes sense for less-perishable items to be delivered by what might be seen, by some, as a 'less reliable' form of transport.


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## mudsticks (14 May 2022)

@Pat "5mph" 

I recall you saying that you would be interested to join in a discussion about food production, availability, sourcing, and pricing _if_ one was started in

"The Other Place".

I'm reminded that that _did _already happen some time back ... 

The thread is called

*"The Economics of Staying Fed" *

Cheers


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## simongt (22 May 2022)

Reynard said:


> make is lemon or orange curd. I love both, but just don't eat enough to make it worthwhile


About forty five years ago my then wife did some home made lemon curd. Whilst it tasted much better than the shop bought variety, she'd made so much that I was having on toast at brekky time for several weeks - !


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## Reynard (22 May 2022)

simongt said:


> About forty five years ago my then wife did some home made lemon curd. Whilst it tasted much better than the shop bought variety, she'd made so much that I was having on toast at brekky time for several weeks - !



This is exactly why I don't really make it. And at my height, being wider than tall is not a terribly good look...


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## gbb (13 Nov 2022)

Pat 5mph said:


> I meant the ones @mudsticks says you can get from the farm unwaxed, to make your curd, along with the free range eggs



Working for a large importer, they simply order unwaxed according to need /projected orders with the supermarkets. Unwaxed lemons are regularly packed but in 20 years, I don't remember seeing unwaxed oranges being packed, but then, i suppose the supermarkets are not interested in supplying to people that want to make marmalade etc. Unwaxed lemons and limes are usually aimed at the drinkers.

I have some photos somewhere of the interior of a packhouse I worked in for a short stint in Spain, its a maze of conveyors, sorters, sizes etc etc, all very automated. Waxing is one of the first parts of the process,followed by driers then graders etc. I will try to dig some out for the sake of interest.


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## gbb (16 Nov 2022)

gbb said:


> Working for a large importer, they simply order unwaxed according to need /projected orders with the supermarkets. Unwaxed lemons are regularly packed but in 20 years, I don't remember seeing unwaxed oranges being packed, but then, i suppose the supermarkets are not interested in supplying to people that want to make marmalade etc. Unwaxed lemons and limes are usually aimed at the drinkers.
> 
> I have some photos somewhere of the interior of a packhouse I worked in for a short stint in Spain, its a maze of conveyors, sorters, sizes etc etc, all very automated. Waxing is one of the first parts of the process,followed by driers then graders etc. I will try to dig some out for the sake of interest.


Not THAT interesting but below is a small section of various parts of a fruit factory in Spain, if you covered the whole factory there'd probably be 4 times more photos.
Just a maze of conveyors, packing machines etc etc etc.
Where these guys really win the game is they own the fields, the product, it's control and movement from the field to the supermarket. This is the reality of our supply chain now, only the biggest survive, constantly driving out the competition. When these photos were taken, the independant packhouse i used to work for then was small fry but very successful. I don't think there are any small independants left in our sector.
It might partly explain how we got those heads of broccoli for 20p...scale of economy


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