# So I'm in the market for a Ti or Reynolds 953 frame



## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

I went to the UK Handmade Bicycle Show in Bristol over the weekend, lots of stunningly beautiful bikes on show, but not quite sure why its called the UK Handmade Bicycle Show though, as most of the frame builders seemed to be from overseas?

Anyway, that aside, lots of questions were asked and lots of answers were given and a jolly good day was had by all.

So the quest has started to find a suitable UK frame builder and if merely to fly the flag for the UK industry I'm now leaning towards Reynolds 953 tubing over Ti. That said, I haven't completely dismissed Ti, but I want it made in the UK by a UK frame builder, and NOT measured up at a UK distributor and then made overseas in some sweat shop.

In truth I don't think that I am not looking for anything unusual, a simple slightly more relaxed geometry frame, with mudguard and rack eyelets but in self colour. Maybe go down the disc route at the same time, the jury is still out on that one right now? The reason for self colour is that I'm sick of getting my bike chipped and scratched at café stops, HQs etc so self colour should prove to be more durable and longer lasting over time?

Number one choice is Brian Rourke who has built a number of frames for me over the years and he was my first port of call, just waiting for a call back to discuss possible options.

In the meantime, I've just rung probably the most unhelpful "sales" person in the world at Mercian Cycles. The call went something like this:

*Me:* Good afternoon, I interested in discussing the purchase of a 953 Audax type frame.

*Mr Helpful:* What do you want to know?

*Me:* Well, based on the audax frame you are showing on your website, what sort of cost are we looking at to start with?

*Mr Helpful:* We haven't got prices right now?

*Me:* So no idea of any sort of ball park price at all then?

*Mr Helpful:* No, but should have it in about a months time if you want to call back?

*Me:* Oh....okay then, do you do or can you do self colour 953 frames?

*Mr Helpful*: No to much trouble to polish around the lugs.

*Me:* I see, okay then, what sort of lead time are we talking about?

*Mr Helpful:* 10 months at least.

A few more one word answers were given to a few more longish questions, and no offer to take my details to maybe call me back, so at which point it was clear that he wasn't really interested or particularly bothered if he sold me a frame or not, so that's them of the list straight away!

On to the next one then?


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## fossyant (18 Apr 2016)

Rourke 953 would be my shortlist of one. Go for it. There is a wait.


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## vickster (18 Apr 2016)

Enigma or Burls for Ti?


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Enigma or Burls for Ti?



Having spoken to a guy on the Engima stand at the show, he said that the best selling Engima Ti frame is made overseas.

Burls frames are made in Russia, from their website - "_The reason I chose to use a Russian company to build Burls titanium frames was that after spending some considerable time looking around at various other possibilities (all Chinese or Taiwanese) it became very clear to me that although the Russian offerings weren't the cheapest, their build quality and experience with working with titanium was second to none."_


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## Elybazza61 (18 Apr 2016)

Did you look at the Shand kit?(think they were there)

http://www.shandcycles.com/


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## Spiderweb (18 Apr 2016)

+1 for Shand but not sure if they build in Titanium or 953?


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## vickster (18 Apr 2016)

I thought perhaps mistakenly that Enigma bespoke frames are made in their workshop. Unlike their off the peg range?


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## midlife (18 Apr 2016)

Kevin Winter should be able to help 

Shaun


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## Spiderweb (18 Apr 2016)

Feather Cycles are hand crafted in Yorkshire, they may be able to help.


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

Elybazza61 said:


> Did you look at the Shand kit?(think they were there)
> 
> http://www.shandcycles.com/



Yes they were and while the guy was most helpful, mine didnt seem to be an every day request?


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

Just a had great telephone conversation with Gareth at Brian Rourkes about my requirements etc. What an utter and complete contrast to the clown that I spoke to at Mercian.


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

Spiderweb said:


> Feather Cycles are hand crafted in Yorkshire, they may be able to help.



Heard some very good stuff about Feather Cycles actually, its my first job to do tomorrow


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

midlife said:


> Kevin Winter should be able to help
> 
> Shaun



I have heard of his frames, but not a great deal of activity about him on the 'tinternet that I can find anyhow?


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## simon.r (18 Apr 2016)

I'm In the early stages of looking at something similar to what you describe and called into Condor Cycles in London a couple of weeks ago. I was very impressed with their staff, they were happy to talk to me at length and offered a test ride there and then. Not sure where they build their frames though?

I had a similarly poor experience at Mercian a few years ago, over a frame I wanted painting. A shame, because I really like the looks of their frames and they're fairly local to me, but like you I won't deal with an outfit that appears not to be interested in me. 

Also, another vote for Enigma. I have one of their standard frames and it's lovely. Like @vickster i have an idea they do their custome builds in the UK, but I'm not entirely sure. 

2 frame builders that I have no experience of but have cropped up on my radar are http://www.hartleycycles.com and http://talbotframeworks.co.uk 

Let us know what you go for please.


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## vickster (18 Apr 2016)

Condor build their frames in Italy. Their titanium is utterly gorgeous, however they have discontinued it. They have/ had some framesets to clear in 58 and 61cm. Superb if over 6ft or so. Which I'm not 

@srw or @rvw might be able to confirm on the enigma question

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/n-1-for-a-significant-birthday-advice-please.197622/


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## craigwend (18 Apr 2016)

http://www.baldwintitanium.co.uk/

http://road.cc/content/review/111962-baldwin-titanium-custom-frame


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## midlife (18 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> I have heard of his frames, but not a great deal of activity about him on the 'tinternet that I can find anyhow?




I'd have mine made by Kevin Sayles at Woodrup if steel and not Ti.......................that's one of his bottom bracket cutouts in my avatar 

Shaun


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## simon.r (18 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Condor build their frames in Italy. Their titanium is utterly gorgeous, however they have discontinued it. They have/ had some framesets to clear in 58 and 61cm. Superb if over 6ft or so. Which I'm not



I am and I'd snap this up if it had disc mounts: https://www.condorcycles.com/collections/all-framesets/products/condor-gran-fondo-frameset But it doesn't Only 61cm left now, which is my size. Must resist...


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## vickster (18 Apr 2016)

P clips 

It's the only Ti frame I've seen to make me part with my cash. Couldn't justify it at full price

I keep an eye on fleabay just in case...


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

simon.r said:


> I'm In the early stages of looking at something similar to what you describe and called into Condor Cycles in London a couple of weeks ago. I was very impressed with their staff, they were happy to talk to me at length and offered a test ride there and then. Not sure where they build their frames though?



I had a good chat with the guy from Condor at the show and was also very impressed with both his knowledge and the bikes that were on show. The only issue for me is the time spent travelling to and from Condor from home for the bike fit, if they were more local to me they would be on my short list or prehaps I'm just making excuses?


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

simon.r said:


> 2 frame builders that I have no experience of but have cropped up on my radar are http://www.hartleycycles.com and http://talbotframeworks.co.uk



Looked at both frames at the show as well, and once again both very nice looking frames, but I have very little knowledge or experiance of either of them.


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## vickster (18 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> I had a good chat with the guy from Condor at the show and was also very impressed with both his knowledge and the bikes that were on show. The only issue for me is the time spent travelling to and from Condor from home for the bike fit, if they were more local to me they would be on my short list or prehaps I'm just making excuses?


They are in central London, pretty accessible really . Where are you based? They also sell through other shops, there's one in York IIRC


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## AlanW (18 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> They are in central London, pretty accessible really . Where are you based?



I'm in North Worcestershire, so not exactly ideal for me really.


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## vickster (18 Apr 2016)

So Birmingham way? Euston is not far at all from Condor, Marylebone not too hard either on the tube  I'd say it's more accessible than Enigma in Sussex

I'm guessing these bespoke manufacturers are dotted around the country


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## simon.r (18 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> I'm guessing these bespoke manufacturers are dotted around the country



Spending around £2k on a frameset should be an enjoyable experience and not a rushed decision. If that involves a few days out (generally combined with doing other things) then so be it. I'm in no rush and was in London for reasons not connected with bicycles when I took the opportunity to call into Condor. I dare say that over the next few months I'll find a reason / excuse to be elsewhere in the country where there happen to be frame builders I want to talk to


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## 1954ianj (18 Apr 2016)

Have you ever considered a Sabbath, I have the Aspire and I'm really pleased with it.


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## srw (18 Apr 2016)

For the record, Enigma seem to make some of their bespoke frames in the UK and some in the Far East - I think their website is pretty open about which is which. But one thing that struck me on our visit was their attention to detail and very high quality standards. Describing their foreign maker as a "sweatshop" seems a little unfair - welding titanium is a technologically challenging job, and creating the precise bike that their designer specifies a highly skilled artisanal job.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

srw said:


> Describing their foreign maker as a "sweatshop" seems a little unfair



To be fair, I wasn't implying or singling out that the Engima frames made overseas were made in "sweat shop", my comment was more of a sweeping generalising statement. 

But why do they need to be made overseas, when we have the skill set in the UK?


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## srw (19 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> To be fair, I wasn't implying or singling out that the Engima frames made overseas were made in "sweat shop", my comment was more of a sweeping generalising statement.
> 
> But why do they need to be made overseas, when we have the skill set in the UK?


Cost. If you can pay the craftsperson £2 an hour in Asia rather than £10 an hour in the UK it makes sense.


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## vickster (19 Apr 2016)

Cheaper. Condor are stopping their Ti frame as has got too costly for a niche product . They are experimenting with lighter steels apparently


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## fossala (19 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> To be fair, I wasn't implying or singling out that the Engima frames made overseas were made in "sweat shop", my comment was more of a sweeping generalising statement.
> 
> But why do they need to be made overseas, when we have the skill set in the UK?


To maximise profit, plain and simple.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Sort of my point really, cheap labour and "probably" not ideal working conditions, which is why I used the term "sweat shop"....


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## Milkfloat (19 Apr 2016)

You could try having a chat with Lee Cooper in Coventry if you are passing - http://leecoopercycles.webs.com/aboutme.htm


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## Fab Foodie (19 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> Just a had great telephone conversation with Gareth at Brian Rourkes about my requirements etc. What an utter and complete contrast to the clown that I spoke to at Mercian.


Gareth's a star. In fact the whole team there and set-up is good.

However, if I had the cash for a bespoke 953 I'd go the whole hog and go to Swallow:
http://www.bicycles-by-design.co.uk/brand/swallow-bespoke/

The Maroon/Pale Blue bike was at Bespoke 2 years ago .... I couldn't stop dribbling ....


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

User said:


> What size frame are you after @AlanW ? I may have a Vann Nicholas Amazon that would suit you....



Loosely based on a 525mm seat tube, (c2c) But its the top tube length that is the key measurement for me, 540mm (c2c)


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## User482 (19 Apr 2016)

Milkfloat said:


> You could try having a chat with Lee Cooper in Coventry if you are passing - http://leecoopercycles.webs.com/aboutme.htm



He built my Thorn Audax... which still going strong and now 20 years old.


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## srw (19 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> Sort of my point really, cheap labour and "probably" not ideal working conditions, which is why I used the term "sweat shop"....


Cheap by our standards, but having been given change in India when I tipped someone 50p for cutting a coconut for me I realise that different countries have very different costs of living.

As to the working conditions - I suspect a bespoke titanium welder in Asia looks rather more like the best UK LBSs than, say, the factories where all of our computers were made.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

So looking at the costs in more detail then, as a rough guide a Ti or a Reynolds 953 frame is going to be around the £2k mark give or take a few quid. That is irrespective of its made in the UK or overseas.

So which industry is it better to support, the UK or overseas?

Having worked as a buyer in a former life of course the overseas frames will be cheaper to produce for all the reasons already mentioned, yet they retail for the same price as a frame made in the UK. Again, as has already been mentioned, profit margins are the aim of the game for the people that supply them.


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## vickster (19 Apr 2016)

Buy the best frame for you from a uk company, their staff will be based in the uk as a minimum. Presumably you'll be putting modern components on it. All of which will likely be made overseas, even the wheels regardless of them being handbuilts in the uk.
You can't buy a bike that is truly British. You'll be supporting global business


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## outlash (19 Apr 2016)

IMO, the 'chinese sweat shop' with the inference is that it's inferior is just wrong. An aquaintance of mine work in the optics industry where the old 'cheap chinese crap' attitude used to prevail. But as he pointed out, the Chinese factories bought Zeiss lens grinding machines so their optics are just as good as anyone else, you just have to pay the price. 

I admire your insistence of buying UK, but I think you're cutting your nose off to spite your face.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

outlash said:


> ....but I think you're cutting your nose off to spite your face.



Not really, I am prepared to pay the going rate for the frame that I require, so circa £2k. 

But my point is and prehaps I have it wrong. But lets say for example a frame from overseas costs £1k to fabricate, although I suspect its not even half that. Its then sold in the UK for £2k. I suspect that the people that have made the most profit are the middle men, not the actual production team. As already been said, cheap labour overseas.

Or..... I pay the same price for a frame, reasonably happy that what ever profit will be spread out to the man that welded it, the designer that crafted it and the person that sold/sized it up for me. Often all the same person in the UK, maybe a couple of people?


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Buy the best frame for you from a uk company, their staff will be based in the uk as a minimum. Presumably you'll be putting modern components on it. All of which will likely be made overseas, even the wheels regardless of them being handbuilts in the uk.
> You can't buy a bike that is truly British. You'll be supporting global business



I agree, but the lions share and the most important bit of that jigsaw will be made from UK tubing and fabricated in the UK.


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## srw (19 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> .
> You can't buy a bike that is truly British.


*ahem* Brompton *ahem*









(Yes, I know - point made for you.)


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## vickster (19 Apr 2016)

srw said:


> *ahem* Brompton *ahem*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do they not use any parts or components made overseas?


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## srw (19 Apr 2016)

vickster said:


> Do they not use any parts or components made overseas?





srw said:


> (Yes, I know - point made for you.)


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## betty swollocks (20 Apr 2016)

Try Sven Cycles based down in Weymouth. They exhibited at Bespoked. Did you visit their stand?
They're making my handbuilt bike.
I had few preliminary chats over the phone with Sven, which gave me a very favourable impression and then went down to visit, spending virtually a whole morning talking over the various options: such infectious enthusiasm and obvious expertise shown, prompted me to place my order there and then.
Can't wait!


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## AlanW (20 Apr 2016)

A slight financial fly in the ointment in my quest for a self colour 953 frame, yes Brian Rourke can do it.....but for additional £1k


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## EasyPeez (20 Apr 2016)

My dream bike would be a bespoke 953 stainless number.

Field and Swallow are currently high up on my list should the dream ever become a reality. Check out the workmanship and paint jobs on the Field gallery - lush!

http://www.fieldcycles.com/gallery

http://www.bicycles-by-design.co.uk/gallery/


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## RedRider (20 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> A slight financial fly in the ointment in my quest for a self colour 953 frame, yes Brian Rourke can do it.....but for additional £1k


I had the chance to look at a 953 Rourke at the weekend, jeez it was light to pick up. Gorgeous, sparkly black paint job with banding in club colours. No idea how much it cost except it was a "very expensive wedding present". 

Would it be cheeky to get the frame made but painted elsewhere? I'd recommend colecoatingsworkshop but they're in London.


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## AlanW (21 Apr 2016)

If you want to see some truly stunning paint jobs, have a look HERE Spoilt for choice!!

My current own colour schemed frame is on here, photos 200 to 204


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## EasyPeez (21 Apr 2016)

AlanW said:


> If you want to see some truly stunning paint jobs, have a look HERE Spoilt for choice!!
> 
> My current own colour schemed frame is on here, photos 200 to 204


Still prefer Field, but those are class.


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## AlanW (10 Nov 2016)

Well, Im still looking and still pondering, but I've swung back towards a Rourkie 953 again. As much as I can see the benefits of a titanium frame, of course they all look the same in self colour. And to be honest, I do like a bit of colour on a frame and the ability to "make it mine" with a colour scheme of my choice.

Looking at my current 853 Rourkie bike, the most damage is the rear triangle area, chain slap and wheel removal for example. At least with the 953 all the rear triangle is self colour so that eradicates that problem area. The next area for concern is the top tube, damage usually caused by other stacking bikes at café stops.  So maybe wrap the top tube, well between the cable lugs with bike shield? I have some of this on my carbon bikes, road and MTB and you don't notice it. Plus it can be removed and leaves residue behind at all.


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## vickster (10 Nov 2016)

Enigma paint titanium


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## AlanW (10 Nov 2016)

vickster said:


> Enigma paint titanium



Yes I know I have spoken to them about that option. But if I want a custom build and a custom paint job, it gets pretty expensive compared to a 953 of a similar specification


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## Ajax Bay (10 Nov 2016)

AlanW said:


> I can see the benefits of a titanium frame


Frame doesn't rust and chips and grazes don't show so much. Some people love the nude finish (I have an aluminium ALAN like this).
While you were gone (6 months) you may have missed this 17 page thread: in-praise-of-titanium-and-spa-cycles


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## AlanW (10 Nov 2016)

Ajax Bay said:


> While you were gone (6 months) you may have missed this 17 page thread: in-praise-of-titanium-and-spa-cycles



Whilst I may not have contributed on this for the last six months, I have still been exploring and seeking out the "for's" and "against's" on my frame options. That said, yes I did miss that thread. But I've just had a quick look, oh boy....I need to sitting more comfortable before I try to digest that lot!!


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## bonsaibilly (10 Nov 2016)

AlanW said:


> Having spoken to a guy on the Engima stand at the show, he said that the best selling Engima Ti frame is made overseas.
> 
> Burls frames are made in Russia, from their website - "_The reason I chose to use a Russian company to build Burls titanium frames was that after spending some considerable time looking around at various other possibilities (all Chinese or Taiwanese) it became very clear to me that although the Russian offerings weren't the cheapest, their build quality and experience with working with titanium was second to none."_



Personally, in cycle terms, I would rather have a frame that was Russian because it was the best than one that was British because it was British. 

Does that make me a traitor or a terribly globalised consumer? Probs.


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## dim (10 Nov 2016)

One of my clients has an Enigma Titanium with Di2 .... As far as I understand, it was bespoke built for him based on his measurements. A stunning bike and I'd love to own one.


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## biggs682 (11 Nov 2016)

AlanW said:


> I'm in North Worcestershire, so not exactly ideal for me really.



Another vote for Lee Cooper in Coventry all hand made in his workshop top bloke i feel

or have a look at Revanche not uk based but interesting


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## hugenostrils (15 Aug 2018)

Just seen this thread!
If anyone is after titanium it would be worth looking at Reilly Cycleworks. My wife has one of theirs and I can't fault it. The build quality is superb. She didn't fit a stock frame so they did a custom one at no extra cost. Mark Reilly is great to deal with - couldn't be more helpfull.
I have a Rourke 953 which I am very pleased with. It is a well proportioned good looking bike which is great to ride. I would not hesitate to use them again. Their prices are reasonable when compared to some other bespoke builders and their bikes are built for use not ornament.
Both these makers are worth considering.


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## Ajax Bay (16 Aug 2018)

hugenostrils said:


> Just seen this thread!


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