# Cars not signalling off roundabouts



## Rooster1 (20 May 2019)

My new commute is do-able entirely on cycle paths. I have to go past a couple of roundabouts on my journey and i've noticed that more times than not, cars just don't bother signalling to come off - making it dicey for me to cross from one cycle path to the next. Ironically, it would be quicker and safer if I went on the road at the roundabouts. My son has the same issue getting to school as a pedestrian sround a roundabout. People never signal so all of a sudden a car that might be going straignt on is actually coming off. Why can't people be bothered to use their damn indicators.


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## Phaeton (20 May 2019)

Rooster1 said:


> Why can't people be bothered to use their damn indicators.


Because they know where they are going


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## Racing roadkill (20 May 2019)

A few cars have a ‘3 flash’ function in the indicators now. You pull the stalk, it flashes 3 times, then cancels. If you don’t happen to be looking at the time the 3 flashes are happening, you won’t notice the indication has happened.


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## derrick (20 May 2019)

Rooster1 said:


> Why can't people be bothered to use their damn indicators.



Because they are dick heads. Thats all you need to know.


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## PeteXXX (20 May 2019)

It's best to not believe indicators! They might not be indicating what you think..

Still, it annoys me as well.


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## vickster (20 May 2019)

Plenty of cyclists and motorcyclists don’t either


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## Bonefish Blues (20 May 2019)

vickster said:


> Plenty of cyclists and motorcyclists don’t either


This.


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## winjim (20 May 2019)

Indicators are a _should,_ not a _must_, so unless we're all wearing our helmets and high viz, well, you know...


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## Heltor Chasca (20 May 2019)

A friend was hit on a roundabout. Hit by a driver that turned left off the RA without indicating. The police deemed it was my friend who was at fault as he should have given way to the vehicle to the right. When he argued that he assumed the driver was carrying straight on, he was advised indicating by the driver would have been nice, but not necessarily law. 

Not sure what the HC says about this.


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## Bonefish Blues (20 May 2019)

I never assume in a car, never mind on a bicycle, especially on a roundabout - where people seem to forget that they are round and they can, well, go round again, as opposed to diving for an exit.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2019)

This is why so called cycle paths are less safe than riding on the road. The cycle paths often end for council convenience reasons, rather than safety, and oftentimes they are downright dangerous pushing cyclists back out onto roads where motorists just aren't expecting you to appear. You are better off tackling roundabouts as any other vehicle would, holding the lane, and making you intentions clear.


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## sheddy (20 May 2019)

and the retards that don't signal right on a roundabout.


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## Globalti (20 May 2019)

Many German cars don't have indicators fitted, they're an optional extra. That's because in a German car you can assume everybody will give way to you.


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## byegad (20 May 2019)

I really boils my wee. I suspect some/most drivers pay £100/blink because their indicators are on pay-per-blink, not contract like me.


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## Globalti (20 May 2019)

I find more annoying the drivers who rush up to a junction hoping to intimidate you into letting them out then stamp pointedly on the brake when you don't so that the front of the car jerks down and up. That kind of driver gets ignored, but I sometimes slow down for the ones who sit quietly waiting. I never flash anybody out.


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## winjim (20 May 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> A friend was hit on a roundabout. Hit by a driver that turned left off the RA without indicating. The police deemed it was my friend who was at fault as he should have given way to the vehicle to the right. When he argued that he assumed the driver was carrying straight on, he was advised indicating by the driver would have been nice, but not necessarily law.
> 
> Not sure what the HC says about this.





winjim said:


> Indicators are a _should,_ not a _must..._


Although to be fair, in the roundabout section, so is giving priority to the right.


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## Paulus (20 May 2019)

*Rule 186*
*Signals and position.* When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise


signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.
When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise


signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.






This is no different to when I learnt to drive in 1976


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## Phaeton (20 May 2019)

Globalti said:


> Many German cars don't have indicators fitted, they're an optional extra. That's because in a German car you can assume everybody will give way to you.


This is what happened to a friend of mine when he wondered what the stalk under the steering wheel did.


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## Gary E (20 May 2019)

I have a similar issue on my commute home (by car). There's a busy 3 way island and cars in the lane to my right (strictly speaking it's straight on but it's still the junction to my right and so I have to give way) can either turn left, and so I can go, or right, and so I have to wait for them to pass in front of me.
The problem is that very few of them bother to indicate and so it's very cat and mouse. I have to assume (for safety), if they're not indicating, that they're going to be turning right. I often sit there like a lemon as car after car turns left .


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## Dogtrousers (20 May 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> You are better off tackling roundabouts as any other vehicle would, holding the lane, and making you intentions clear.


I did just that recently and the guy in the van behind me was signalling to me as he turned off the roundabout. I'm not quite sure what his signals meant. He was shouting too. Possibly complimenting me on my observance of the HC


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## Phaeton (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> View attachment 467282


That to me is wrong & not a complete picture, if there are 2 lanes approaching & 2 lanes leaving, approaching the roundabout in the right lane & exiting straight forward in the right lane is not incorrect. indicating correctly of course.


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## Paulus (20 May 2019)

See above, but basically each turning off of a roundabout should be treated as a separate junction . So unless you are turning off at the first left exit, you should be indicating right until you get to the exit you want and then indicate left.


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## Paulus (20 May 2019)

Phaeton said:


> That to me is wrong & not a complete picture, if there are 2 lanes approaching & 2 lanes leaving, approaching the roundabout in the right lane & exiting straight forward in the right lane is not incorrect. indicating correctly of course.


If you are going off at the first exit, or straight across the roundabout you should be in the left lane. You should be in the right hand lane if you are taking the third/fourth exit. Unless road markings dictate otherwise It is quite easy to see.


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## Phaeton (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> If you are going off at the first exit, or straight across the roundabout you should be in the left lane. You should be in the right hand lane if you are taking the third/fourth exit. Unless road markings dictate otherwise It is quite easy to see.


I still disagree, if there are 2 lanes on entry to the roundabout & there are 2 exits from the roundabout (in the straight across position) then approaching in the right hand lane is not incorrect.


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## Sea of vapours (20 May 2019)

Phaeton said:


> That to me is wrong & not a complete picture, if there are 2 lanes approaching & 2 lanes leaving, approaching the roundabout in the right lane & exiting straight forward in the right lane is not incorrect. indicating correctly of course.



That diagram isn't seeking to define which lane you should be in, it's just showing what and when the indication should be. So, yes, it's incomplete but I don't think it's trying to do more than show correct signalling behaviour. 

On the 'correct lane' question, however, it's perfectly valid to be in the right hand lane and go straight on where there are two lanes on approach and exit, and that's because it *is* wrong for someone in the left lane to do anything other than go left or straight ahead (so right and straight ahead cannot cause them an issue). Of course, all this can be modified by lane marking and it certainly would be wrong to go straight ahead from the right approach lane if there were a 'Right turn only' arrow in that right lane.


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## Arjimlad (20 May 2019)

I got a bit annoyed driving in France when tackling roundabouts, until I realised that they don't signal at all until they're coming off the roundabout.

So, there's no equivalent of our right turning signal - any vehicle on the roundabout is presumed to be staying on unless it's signalling to come off. When that penny dropped it made a lot more sense.


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## mustang1 (20 May 2019)

Has anyone mentioned BMWs yet? It's usually customary to mention that brand of car but it appears that drivers of many different car brands do this. 

I'm sure in a future thread it will move back to BMWs again. 

Just sayin'


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## Threevok (20 May 2019)

I have found the following rules have saved my bacon a few times, while commuting on (or crossing junctions near) roundabouts 

1) Never trust people who don't signal
2) Never trust people who do


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## Threevok (20 May 2019)

mustang1 said:


> Has anyone mentioned BMWs yet? It's usually customary to mention that brand of car but it appears that drivers of many different car brands do this.
> 
> I'm sure in a future thread it will move back to BMWs again.
> 
> Just sayin'



It seems to be Mercedes drives here lately

I think I've found out what the "C" in C-Class means


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## Dogtrousers (20 May 2019)

Threevok said:


> It seems to be Mercedes drives here lately
> 
> I think I've found out what the "C" in C-Class means


That'll be me then. Poop poop! Get off the road!

Although mine's a beaten up, particulate spewing, A class. A for ...


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## pawl (20 May 2019)

PeteXXX said:


> It's best to not believe indicators! They might not be indicating what you think..
> 
> Still, it annoys me as well.




Annoys me as well.I usually wait till I actually see the indicators switched on


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## roubaixtuesday (20 May 2019)

Agree on the roundabouts but more generally I often find myself stopping unnecessarily because a motorist doesn't bother indicating at junctions.

I was horrified to find my son was taught by his instructor not to use indicators unless he can see another vehicle that needs to know when he's turning. I think one of the main benefits of using indicators is that if you haven't seen another road user, at least they know what you're intending to do...


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## Sea of vapours (20 May 2019)

roubaixtuesday said:


> ... my son was taught by his instructor not to use indicators unless he can see another vehicle that needs to know when he's turning.



It's person, rather than 'vehicle'. More precisely_ 'can anyone benefit from the signal?'_ Part of the idea is that the majority of people just signal without thinking about what their signal conveys and to whom. Doing as your son's instructor describes forces far greater attention, better observation and better anticipation than simply doing it _'just in case someone can see me'._


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## roubaixtuesday (20 May 2019)

Sea of vapours said:


> It's person, rather than 'vehicle'. More precisely_ 'can anyone benefit from the signal?'_ Part of the idea is that the majority of people just signal without thinking about what their signal conveys and to whom. Doing as your son's instructor describes forces far greater attention, better observation and better anticipation than simply doing it _'just in case someone can see me'._



But surely, it's even more important if you've inadvertenly *not* spotted someone? As motorists often don't with cyclists...

[Edit, meant to add, is this advice on indicating "official" ie written down somewhere, highway code, advanced driving etc?]


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## Globalti (20 May 2019)

We discussed this on CC about 9 months ago.

If you don't know whether there's anybody around who needs to know your intentions, you have no right to be behind the wheel of a motor vehicle, full stop. A driver should know exactly what's going on around them and if there's nobody who will benefit, such as turning on an empty estate or even a main road where there's nobody else in sight, it's perfectly OK not to signal although you should be ready to begin signalling as soon as anybody comes into view who needs to know your intentions.


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## Sea of vapours (20 May 2019)

Arguably so, yes. In theory, however, and I strongly agree with this, the balance is that making drivers actively and continuously check their situation and whether anyone could benefit from a signal is by far the better of the two options. Conversely, 'I just signal all the time' produces the effect of 'I have signalled therefore I can turn', which is never correct.


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## Illaveago (20 May 2019)

Rooster1 said:


> My new commute is do-able entirely on cycle paths. I have to go past a couple of roundabouts on my journey and i've noticed that more times than not, cars just don't bother signalling to come off - making it dicey for me to cross from one cycle path to the next. Ironically, it would be quicker and safer if I went on the road at the roundabouts. My son has the same issue getting to school as a pedestrian sround a roundabout. People never signal so all of a sudden a car that might be going straignt on is actually coming off. Why can't people be bothered to use their damn indicators.


I blame the driving test peeps ! They are instructing driving instructors to train people not to use them all the time . I believe it should be compulsory even if the driver thinks that there is no one else on the road as another vehicle or person could be hidden in their blind spot .


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## lazybloke (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> unless you are turning off at the first left exit, you should be indicating right until you get to the exit you want and then indicate left



Admittedly it's difficult to generalise when roundabouts have so much variation, but.... if I'm going "straight on" at a roundabout I will not use the right indicator at all. That's the way I was taught to drive. Admittedly this was a decade later than you, but it still seems to be compliant with the UK Highway code. 
More detailed diagrams examples are in a supplement: https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/appendix-roundabouts

The exception, in rule #187 is for horses and cyclists when for reasons of low speed they use the "wrong" lane. Personally, I cycle on roundabouts as if I was car. Anything else seems dangerous.


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## Milkfloat (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> See above, but basically each turning off of a roundabout should be treated as a separate junction . So unless you are turning off at the first left exit, you should be indicating right until you get to the exit you want and then indicate left.



So you are saying that if you are going straight over a 4 exit roundabout, you firstly indicate right and then indicate left after the first exit, rather than following the highway code and not indicate until you are past the first exit?

Edit - Beaten to it by @lazybloke, but the question still stands.


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## Paulus (20 May 2019)

I


Milkfloat said:


> So you are saying that if you are going straight over a 4 exit roundabout, you firstly indicate right and then indicate left after the first exit, rather than following the highway code and not indicate until you are past the first exit?
> 
> Edit - Beaten to it by @lazybloke, but the question still stands.


In a word--- yes.
Because you are not turning left at one of the exits, you are going right at that particular junction. It tells any driver waiting to enter the roundabout that you are going around.


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## lazybloke (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> I
> 
> In a word--- yes.
> Because you are not turning left at one of the exits, you are going right at that particular junction. It tells any driver waiting to enter the roundabout that you are going around.


So you're indicating to show what is Not your intention?


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## Mugshot (20 May 2019)

Arjimlad said:


> I got a bit annoyed driving in France when tackling roundabouts, until I realised that they don't signal at all until they're coming off the roundabout.
> 
> So, there's no equivalent of our right turning signal - any vehicle on the roundabout is presumed to be staying on unless it's signalling to come off. When that penny dropped it made a lot more sense.


It's more annoying that they drive round them the wrong way


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## Paulus (20 May 2019)

lazybloke said:


> So you're indicating to show what is Not your intention?


If you want to put it like that. Or, turn it on it's head as your intention is to continue turning right.


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## Bazzer (20 May 2019)

Illaveago said:


> I blame the driving test peeps ! They are instructing driving instructors to train people not to use them all the time . I believe it should be compulsory even if the driver thinks that there is no one else on the road as another vehicle or person could be hidden in their blind spot .



Certainly not in the case of child 2, who passed her test a couple of weeks ago.
She was taught by me to use them all the time; on roundabouts to indicate when going round and exiting a roundabout; and this was reinforced by the driving instructor, (without my intervention) who took her for a handful of lessons to make her test ready rather than the road ready I was preparing her for.


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## Illaveago (20 May 2019)

Bazzer said:


> Certainly not in the case of child 2, who passed her test a couple of weeks ago.
> She was taught by me to use them all the time; on roundabouts to indicate when going round and exiting a roundabout; and this was reinforced by the driving instructor, (without my intervention) who took her for a handful of lessons to make her test ready rather than the road ready I was preparing her for.


I know of a driving instructor who was failed for using his indicator too much !


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## Milkfloat (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> I
> 
> In a word--- yes.
> Because you are not turning left at one of the exits, you are going right at that particular junction. It tells any driver waiting to enter the roundabout that you are going around.



So you are happy to ignore the Highway Code that most other drivers follow and just make up your own rules? Had many accidents or do you see a lot?


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## classic33 (20 May 2019)

Phaeton said:


> I still disagree, if there are 2 lanes on entry to the roundabout & there are 2 exits from the roundabout (in the straight across position) then approaching in the right hand lane is not incorrect.


And when the roundabout goes from two marked lanes to five, to three and your exit has two or four lanes, what then?


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## Mr Celine (20 May 2019)

I find the direction the front wheels of the car on the roundabout are pointing in to be a more reliable indication of where it's actually going than the presence or absence of a flashing light.


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## Paulus (20 May 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> So you are happy to ignore the Highway Code that most other drivers follow and just make up your own rules? Had many accidents or do you see a lot?


No. No accidents and I have seen none in front or behind me. I don't think most drivers follow the rules. Stand by any roundabout and watch how many don't signal at all! If by using the indicators as I was taught is making up my own rules then maybe the more modern way of being taught is flawed.


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## Milkfloat (20 May 2019)

Paulus said:


> No. No accidents and I have seen none in front or behind me. I don't think most drivers follow the rules. Stand by any roundabout and watch how many don't signal at all! If by using the indicators as I was taught is making up my own rules then maybe the more modern way of being taught is flawed.



I am confused now, you said earlier that you were taught in 1976 the same way as the helpful illustration shows, but then describe something different. Just to be sure, you are talking about the blue path in the illustration, in which case no indication at all until you are past the first exit, then a left indication?


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## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2019)

Sea of vapours said:


> Arguably so, yes. In theory, however, and I strongly agree with this, the balance is that making drivers actively and continuously check their situation and whether anyone could benefit from a signal is by far the better of the two options. Conversely, 'I just signal all the time' produces the effect of 'I have signalled therefore I can turn', which is never correct.



Conversely it could have the effect of, I can't see anybody therefore no one is there to see me, and benefit. I seems odd to teach someone not to indicate their intentions when in charge of two tonnes of lethal metal. Continuous assessing of the environment should be a norm.


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## Sea of vapours (20 May 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Continuous assessing of the environment should be a norm.



It should be, yes, but it's apparent that for many people it isn't. For example, up thread somewhere someone commented on 'what if someone is in the blind spot?', the idea being that you need to indicate to this unknown, hidden person. The response question is 'how did they get there?', to which the answer is that the driver failed to see the pedestrian / cyclist / car / whatever sneakily creeping up on them and hiding in their blind spot. If someone is in the blind spot and you, as a driver, don't know they're there then you've been paying insufficient attention to what's around you .... and if that is true then it loops back to paying more attention, which can be promoted by continuously doing so in case a signal is needed.


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## Globalti (21 May 2019)

Spot on. If you've missed another road user, blind spot or not, you need to see an optician, clean the plasticiser film off the insides of your windows and use the fan on speed 1 to clear the condensation that attracts, raise your seat for a better view, wake up or just get a car with better all-round vision. Blindly signalling in hope is not good enough; a driver should know exactly what other road users are around them and signal as necessary to make those users aware of their intentions. Drivers who signal unnecessarily are bumblers in my opinion.


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## Dogtrousers (21 May 2019)

If a driver signals and there is no one there to see it, does it flash?


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## DaveReading (21 May 2019)

The fallacy is that there's a "one size fits all" best strategy for roundabouts.

That may have been true 50 years ago when I was learning to drive and all roundabouts looked pretty much the same.

But throw in mini-roundabouts, where you're asking for trouble if you don't indicate your right turn as you approach, and (a favourite in these parts) "square roundabouts" and you really need to adapt your signalling strategy to suit.


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## lazybloke (21 May 2019)

DaveReading said:


> *The fallacy is that there's a "one size fits all" best strategy for roundabouts*.


Absolutely, but a driver with good knowledge of the basic rules will adapt them to suit any situation. 

If on the other hand a driver hasn't bothered to look a recent Highway Code (for decades) and drives to a different/outdated set of rules, then by definition they will be an unpredictable driver.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 May 2019)

lazybloke said:


> Absolutely, but a driver with good knowledge of the basic rules will adapt them to suit any situation.
> 
> If on the other hand a driver hasn't bothered to look a recent Highway Code (for decades) and drives to a different/outdated set of rules, then by definition they will be an unpredictable driver.



Nope, behaviour of that single driver is still predictable just not by the rules you know. Depending on the driver (you encounter) was taught there may be all sorts of stuff going on. Of course there's those who never indicate at any point just to keep you guessing.


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## lazybloke (21 May 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Nope, behaviour of that single driver is still predictable just not by the rules you know. Depending on the driver (you encounter) was taught there may be all sorts of stuff going on. Of course there's those who never indicate at any point just to keep you guessing.



You seem to be arguing semantics.
The HC is a definitive set of rules & guidelines for ALL drivers in Great Britain. That's how we should all drive, so what's the problem in labeling someone as unpredictable if they drive in some other (unknown) manner?

As for drivers that don't indicate at all. Ugh, they are dangerous time-wasters. 
Drivers who indicate incorrectly can be just as bad.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 May 2019)

lazybloke said:


> You seem to be arguing semantics.
> The HC is a definitive set of rules & guidelines for ALL drivers in Great Britain. That's how we should all drive, so what's the problem in labeling someone as unpredictable if they drive in some other (unknown) manner?
> 
> As for drivers that don't indicate at all. Ugh, they are dangerous time-wasters.
> Drivers who indicate incorrectly can be just as bad.



Because they are predictable based on the guidance at the time they learnt. How many drivers do you know who change what they do each year based on changes in the latest edition? HC is only guidance and indicating doesn't fall under any road law as far as I'm aware.

You can't look at the latest HC issued in 2019 and reasonably predict every driver will follow that guidance.


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## NickWi (21 May 2019)

Threevok said:


> I have found the following rules have saved my bacon a few times, while commuting on (or crossing junctions near) roundabouts
> 
> 1) Never trust people who don't signal
> 2) Never trust people who do



I would also add to the above that all a flashing indicator means is that:-
a) There's bulb in there.
b) It works!


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## fossyant (21 May 2019)

You need eyes in the back and side of your head on most multi lane roundabouts, even in a car. Total lack of discipline or IDGAF. Sister has had the rear corner of her car squashed recently by a someone swapping lanes and not looking.


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## Ming the Merciless (21 May 2019)

NickWi said:


> I would also add to the above that all a flashing indicator means is that:-
> a) There's bulb in there.
> b) It works!



Intermittently !


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## keithmac (21 May 2019)

I look at the front wheels now when overtaking cars on a motorcycle or coming up to roundabouts (bike/ car/ cycle).

Nearly got taken out on a dual carriageway a few years back by a lorry that didn't indicate and pulled out without checking, seeing me. Luckily I saw his front wheels moving before it was too late and managed to start braking.

Best bet is to always be prepared for worse possible outcome.


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## screenman (21 May 2019)

Everyone is aiming at you, keep that in mind when out on the roads.


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## lazybloke (22 May 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Because they are predictable based on the guidance at the time they learnt. How many drivers do you know who change what they do each year based on changes in the latest edition? HC is only guidance and indicating doesn't fall under any road law as far as I'm aware.
> 
> You can't look at the latest HC issued in 2019 and reasonably predict every driver will follow that guidance.


And yet you object when I call those drivers unpredictable? 

Seriously, I don't expect all drivers to promptly learn every revision of the HC. I can't even find my copy. 


Yet I struggle to understand how a driver with 40+ years of experience can fail to be aware that indicating advice at roundabouts has changed. Even without a printed copy of the HC, direct observation of other drivers should make it obvious that there is a new way to indicate.
How much time would you say is reasonable for a driver to lean the latest HC?

Has anyone recommended mandatory retesting yet?


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## HLaB (22 May 2019)

I always look at front wheels as indicators and their use is so variable. Lol back in 2013 I was taken out doing that but I'm still alive so I'll continue. I got to a roundabout and gave way to a big old fashioned sports car (the type with large wheels on the outside of the car body). The driver behind me stopped too. Lol, it was clear that he was staying on the roundabout so I gave way for a second more. The car behind which had been stopped thought they saw an indicator and accelerated into the back of me. Her first words were 'I saw you'. You saw me so you hit me  Still being hit from behind was still the better outcome in my head than pulling out in front of a car travelling at speed that was clearly not pulling off


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## Johnno260 (22 May 2019)

People don't even understand the give way to the right rule on roundabouts, you expect them to signal as well?

I had a Range Rover come from my left this morning, she raged as I didn't stop *on* the roundabout and let her through, she followed me to the super market and raged at me, so I asked her how a roundabout worked, I said I was already on the roundabout before she approached it, and that I was on her right, it didn't compute with her so I retorted if left and right is too hard to comprehend then you shouldn't be driving.


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## recumbentpanda (22 May 2019)

The trouble with the ‘only indicate if there is someone to benefit’ philosophy is -human nature. Most people I believe, just interpret it as ‘I don’t need to bother indicating’. 

Another problem with it is that it demands a level of situational awareness of which human beings are known to be not capable even when not tired, irritable and trying to get home after a hard day’s inner city plumbing . . .

Of course drivers need to be constantly and actively aware, but telling them to make snap judgements about when and when not to indicate is not going to encourage that. It just contributes to the already critical information overload at busy junctions, and encourages people to take the easy option. 

Sorry, but I’m firmly with the Old School on this one.


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## cyberknight (22 May 2019)

fossyant said:


> You need eyes in the back and side of your head on most multi lane roundabouts, even in a car. Total lack of discipline or IDGAF. Sister has had the rear corner of her car squashed recently by a someone swapping lanes and not looking.


Which is why i go a mile + out of my way going to work on the bike , it avoids the roundabout of death outside our workplace.Its bad enough in a vehicle /car let alone a bike


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## Sea of vapours (22 May 2019)

recumbentpanda said:


> ...telling them to make snap judgements about when and when not to indicate ...



it's not supposed to be a snap judgement though. It's supposed to be a considered choice which stems from constant and high levels of situational awareness. Nor is the idea of not signalling automatically in the least bit new; it's decades old (at least three, probably more). 

That said, I'd agree with your implicit point that the majority of people piloting vehicles of all sorts are woefully lacking in observation and situational awareness. It's pretty remarkable how few collisions there are in fact ;-)


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## Johnno260 (22 May 2019)

Bring on self driving cars, the robots can’t be worse?


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## david k (22 May 2019)

Rooster1 said:


> My new commute is do-able entirely on cycle paths. I have to go past a couple of roundabouts on my journey and i've noticed that more times than not, cars just don't bother signalling to come off - making it dicey for me to cross from one cycle path to the next. Ironically, it would be quicker and safer if I went on the road at the roundabouts. My son has the same issue getting to school as a pedestrian sround a roundabout. People never signal so all of a sudden a car that might be going straignt on is actually coming off. Why can't people be bothered to use their damn indicators.


I once asked someone who was driving why they weren't signalling on roundabouts, they relied 'who to'......sigh


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## Ming the Merciless (22 May 2019)

It's why a few roundabouts are now being planted with gadgets to obscure sight lines. Forces them to signal as they can't tell if anyone is there.


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## DaveReading (23 May 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> It's why a few roundabouts are now being planted with gadgets to obscure sight lines. Forces them to signal as they can't tell if anyone is there.



That sounds somewhat perverse (and potentially dangerous). Source ??


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## mjr (23 May 2019)

DaveReading said:


> That sounds somewhat perverse (and potentially dangerous). Source ??


I think blocking the sight line is actually to try to force people to slow down, such as the northbound approach to the western A45/A509 junction near Wellingborough.

Of course, what happened instead is people driving out blind (the common but incorrect practice of driving into space you can't see to be obstructed, rather than only into space that you're sure will be clear), unable to stop in time once they saw a vehicle with priority, so I think that one now has traffic lights too


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## mjr (23 May 2019)

Globalti said:


> Spot on. If you've missed another road user, blind spot or not, you need to see an optician, clean the plasticiser film off the insides of your windows and use the fan on speed 1 to clear the condensation that attracts, raise your seat for a better view, wake up or just get a car with better all-round vision. Blindly signalling in hope is not good enough; a driver should know exactly what other road users are around them and signal as necessary to make those users aware of their intentions. Drivers who signal unnecessarily are bumblers in my opinion.


I don't care about your opinion of me. I do care that if you aren't infallible (and I suspect you aren't) then every mistake you make means you've not signalled to someone who would benefit, perhaps me.

Meanwhile, I may be signalling to no one sometimes, but that means no one cares that I'm signalling.

Also, how would you know that I signal to no one? If you're there, I'm probably signalling to you!


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## Sea of vapours (23 May 2019)

mjr said:


> Also, how would you know that I signal to no one? If you're there, I'm probably signalling to you!



In the circumstances we're discussing - a motor vehicle negotiating a roundabout and my making a choice to move/continue, or not, as a cyclist based on their use of a signal or lack thereof - I'm not about to enter the roundabout unless I actively think the signal is for me. By that I mean that I've made eye contact with the driver and that they've put their indicator on. i.e. that they are unequivocally signalling to me, not simply doing it since that's 'the thing to do', based on whatever scheme of 'correct signalling' they believe in. As mentioned up-thread, more than once, acting on someone's flashing light signal in a way which puts you in front a a tonne+ of fast-moving metal whilst on a bicycle, where the signal may be misleading, seems rather too trusting for my liking. That's been nicely demonstrated repeatedly by the wildly varying ideas as to what is 'correct signalling' so far described in this thread.


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## recumbentpanda (23 May 2019)

“I’m not about to enter the roundabout unless I actively think the signal is for me.”

Another millisecond snap judgement though isn’t it? And lists like this one are full of tales of drivers who made eye contact and drove through the cyclist anyway. 

Like many here, I would treat all signals with the same degree of suspicion, eye contact or not. 

In the end though, I don’t see any resolution to debates like this. There are just too damn many cars and too many of them going too fast for either strategy to really work. The only real solution is the hardest one of all -an end to car-sick culture.


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## lazybloke (23 May 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> If I've understood @YukonBoy correctly there are the things he refers to, which obscure the view to the right on approach installed on this roundabout.
> http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?...archp=ids.srf&dn=704&ax=517062&ay=157285&lm=0
> A243 approach to M25 J9 from the South in Leatherhead
> 
> ...


They are fences, car height so lorry drivers can see over, but everyone else has to slow. Slower should be safer, but I can imagine unintended consequences - not least a drop in traffic flow and an increase in emissions. Plus it looks terrible on crash map.
There are 8 approaches in all (staggered, so 2 roundabouts). Most of them have bad sight-lines.

Edited to add: the fences have been there for years.


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## Mr Celine (23 May 2019)

Sea of vapours said:


> By that I mean that I've made eye contact with the driver



SofV "Good, she's making eye contact with me, her signal must be for me"
Driver "That's a cool pair of shades, wonder where he got them"

If the driver is looking at you they're not looking where they're going. Watch the wheels. That's where the car is going.


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## Bazzer (23 May 2019)

DaveReading said:


> That sounds somewhat perverse (and potentially dangerous). Source ??



Certainly happens a couple of miles or so from my home. The Council use camouflage netting which terminates (of the top of my head), 3 - 4 metres from the junction, on at least two roundabouts. It forces drivers to slow down and look, (assuming they are not complete bell ends), rather than assuming the gap they see at 100m, will remain by the time they get to the roundabout.
Bizarrely, the same Council levelled a rose hip hedge which served the purpose, not a mile from one of those with camouflage netting.


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## mjr (23 May 2019)

Bazzer said:


> Certainly happens a couple of miles or so from my home. The Council use camouflage netting which terminates (of the top of my head), 3 - 4 metres from the junction, on at least two roundabouts. It forces drivers to slow down and look, (assuming they are not complete bell ends), [...]


I think I've spotted the flaw in the council's thinking!


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## Ming the Merciless (23 May 2019)

The others have it, barriers, walls, hedges etc. So the driver cannot see if anyone is on the roundabout to their right as they approach. Some also stop you seeing the other side of the roundabout.


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## 2sheds (25 May 2019)

I have cycled and driven, when taught to ride a bike, my Dad said " just assume every other road user is an idiot, don't trust them" never have never will, no accidents in 40 yrs ( that's probably torn it), just assume all others don't know what they are doing, ride safe


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## Johnno260 (26 May 2019)

2sheds said:


> I have cycled and driven, when taught to ride a bike, my Dad said " just assume every other road user is an idiot, don't trust them" never have never will, no accidents in 40 yrs ( that's probably torn it), just assume all others don't know what they are doing, ride safe



This is the exact same advise I was given by my Mum. 

Making that assumption saved me on my partial commute this week, approached a side road, the guy looked straight at me, and pulled out anyway, in anticipation I had already moved towards the center of the road so it gave me time to swerve into the hatched area in the center.

As for the women who threw a complete fit as I was turning right on a mini round about and forced her to give way to the right, I can’t explain her issue, she approached the roundabout on my left and got upset followed me into a supermarket car park and went postal on me.


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## 2sheds (26 May 2019)

Johnno260 said:


> This is the exact same advise I was given by my Mum.
> 
> Making that assumption saved me on my partial commute this week, approached a side road, the guy looked straight at me, and pulled out anyway, in anticipation I had already moved towards the center of the road so it gave me time to swerve into the hatched area in the center.
> 
> As for the women who threw a complete fit as I was turning right on a mini round about and forced her to give way to the right, I can’t explain her issue, she approached the roundabout on my left and got upset followed me into a supermarket car park and went postal on me.


Good for you, you avoided an ambulance and hospital


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