# Still confused about bike gps stuff..



## Bigtallfatbloke (24 Jun 2008)

I know we spoke lots about these in th epast, but I am coming back round to the idea of one of these with european maps etc....I know Brock is using one but I forget which set up he eventually took with him....and I cant find th eold thread....I think it was a Garmin of some kind with european maps...does anybody know?..Brock..you out there ?


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## dodgy (24 Jun 2008)

You're probably talking about a Garmin Edge 605 or 705? There's a bit of information on my site, possibly even more useful stuff in the comments 

http://www.velorider.co.uk/wp02/?p=29

Dave.


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## Dayvo (24 Jun 2008)

This is what Brock has:

http://www8.garmin.com/products/poiloader/


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## Kirstie (24 Jun 2008)

The 705 is the one with the full colour display and maps. Its v smart and i'd like one!


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## HJ (24 Jun 2008)

Here is another review of the Garmin Edge 705, it is a bit like those GPS system which drivers use to get lost, only this one is purpose built for bikes...

The other option, which is a wee bit more expensive and not purpose built for bikes, but have better maps is the Satmap Active 10...


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## yello (24 Jun 2008)

A 705 is overkill for touring surely? Do you want cadence and heart rate monitoring? There are cheaper options for just sat nav.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (24 Jun 2008)

So the 705 with some european maps would work ok for getting me through the back streets of french cities?

I am not fussed about all the training programmes on it though, just want a good, easy to use, accurate, waterproof GPS set up that works in Europe and the UK that is specifically cyclist friendly.


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## Kirstie (25 Jun 2008)

You can also get city map gps downloads for mobile phones. My other half has a Nokia phone which does this for him when he is working overseas. The GPS software is installed on the phone - he just downloads the maps.


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## domtyler (25 Jun 2008)

The 705 is not for touring, the battery only last a day at the most for a start and it is has built in HRM, cadence etc. It is meant for taking you out on training rides, bring you home again and then allowing you to replay your ride and see every detail from wind speed to calories burned and a full colour terrain map.

For touring you would need something like the eTrex.


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## Kirstie (25 Jun 2008)

I'll just add that the garmin support line is really first rate. They are fab to deal with on the phone.


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## domtyler (25 Jun 2008)

Kirstie said:


> I'll just add that the garmin support line is really first rate. They are fab to deal with on the phone.



Do you phone them up 'just for a chat' sometimes?


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## Kirstie (25 Jun 2008)

domtyler said:


> Do you phone them up 'just for a chat' sometimes?



Yeah when I'm lonely and working from home. I sometimes get them to email me advice too


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## domtyler (25 Jun 2008)

Kirstie said:


> Yeah when I'm lonely and working from home. I sometimes get them to email me advice too


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## Bigtallfatbloke (25 Jun 2008)

I just spoke to Garmin and yes they are most helpful.

They advised me to buy a Garmin edge 605 and the city navigator europe maps card because I said I dont need a heart moniter (..might do after I get the bill a suppose!)

There are apparently two options on the 606 & 705 :

Option one = expensive but allows you to pre programme everything on a pc and upload it to the Garmin prior to your trip.
Option 2 = cheaper but you have to do all the route planning on the Garmin unit as it does not support pc use.

The City navigator europe maps are street level maps and cover all of the UK and Europe except some parts of eastern europe apparently.

The 605 &705 plot your position from a satellite and direct you via th eon screen display as you ride. There is no verbal direction but a loud bleep when you need to turn.



I


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## yello (25 Jun 2008)

Hmmm, I'm sure it's sound advice from Garmin, but I still reckon there's a more appropriate, and more affordable, option that the 605.... time to google.


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## MockCyclist (25 Jun 2008)

I don't kow how anyone can programme anything but the simplest of routes on the unit itself - and only then if you accept it's own route calculation.

So for it to be of real use you need to use pc mapping software pre route and upload it. I usually use Memory-Map for UK routes and Garmin MapSource for the continent. Often I will upload the created .gpx file to one of the route hosting sites, that way I can see the satellite view and even do a fly-through if I then pass it to Google Earth. Then tweak the route a bit more to suit what looks interesting, or just add a poi with proximity alarm if there's something I want to be alerted to.

The beep alerts you to all upcoming waypoints. I've cycled hundreds of miles using just my gps with routes downloaded off t'internet - barely missing a turn. In fact I wish there was an option to beep even louder when I deviate from the route by greater than a pre-defined amount - pretty much all my u-turns were due to missing a turn that was correctly shown.

City Navigator does do auto-routing, providing your unit supports it. Not all Garmin units do, and neither do all mapsets. Bear in mind, there are some limitations when you use auto routing. I think it's to do with available waypoint capacity - can't remember the details as I rarely use that feature. Because auto-routing follows the road precisely, it uses many times more waypoints I think. 

I dunno about that 705. Only 100 waypoints? My Garmin unit has capacity for 1000 and I could have used more. Rechargeable battery? Prefer standard AA. Where are the tracklogs kept? In its own memory? Not enough for a tour, I'll bet.


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## Pottsy (25 Jun 2008)

btfb - I came to the conclusion that you have and ordered an Edge 605 with the European road mapping on a microSD card (tiny chip that slots into the back of the GPS). I didn't need the heart-rate stuff, or power whatever it is and wireless communication with other cyclists - I just wanted navigation with full visual road maps plus basic speed and distance info. 

I can keep you posted as to how I get on but I haven't actually attached it to the bike yet (only arrived yesterday). Initial impressions are a neat unit, centrally mounts on the stem, 2 bike mount fittings and a good interface especially for those used to Garmin. 

I might try interfacing with a laptop to upload routes I've planned ahead, but to be honest, I don't currently know how to. The main use for me is navigation on day rides, avoiding getting lost, help in navigating to a particular place etc. Like you'd use a SatNav in a car basically. I think it should fulfill all these needs. 

Also with correct charging facilities I don't see why it won't also fulfil these needs efficiently whilst touring in Europe, though I am yet to see what the battery life is like whilst on the move. 9 hours would be fine for me if I switch it off during my extended lunch break.


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## MockCyclist (25 Jun 2008)

Does the 605/705 even do tracklogs? They aren't mentioned in the Garmin specs.

A tracklog is an electronic breadcrumb of where you've been. As long as the unit is on and has satellite lock, it's recording a tracklog. This is quite separate from your route, which you may be following on-screen. The GPS Map60 CSx has 10,000 trackpoint capacity and when this is reached it re-uses the oldest ones. So you always have a 10,000 point log which might be your last 2-3 days in my experience. However it also separately records tracklogs to the sd card and they'll sit there until I erase them, so there is no practical limit. 

When you review your tracklog, you get to see every detail of where you've actually been. Upload it to Google, and you can see an aerial view of your entire trip. I use my tracklog to automatically add gps position information to all my photographs. Personally I enjoy reviewing my rides/tours as it recalls little details that I otherwise forget.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (25 Jun 2008)

...all good info thanks.
Man am I still confused though...it all seems so complicated, especially when a car driver can walk into halfords and out again with a simple easy unit that does the job cheaply...
This does look good, but *VERY* expensive compared to the Edge 605
http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.200-5870.aspx

...my dilema as always is cash...the more i spend on this the longer i have to wait for the bIanchi...
I do like the sound of those city navigator europe maps though....easy lif eis all I want on my bike....especially in some backstreet in a large unfamiler city.

Pottsy...go get it set up on the bike I'd be really interested in hearing how the 605 works with city nav europe. Thanks.


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## MockCyclist (25 Jun 2008)

A quick Google shows that purelygadgets.co.uk sell a GPSMAP 60CSX for less than a 705 and £31 more than the 605. (I've never dealt with this company). The mapping is expensive but is the same whichever unit you have. I'm not saying you must have a 60CSx, just that it is a route/logging oriented model, rather than training oriented. There are of course other mapping models, I think the eTrex range is possibly cheaper still. If you don't want to upload pre-planned routes, the 100 waypoint limit may not be an issue for you.


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## aidanp (26 Jun 2008)

The 705 is used for training not for mapping. 
As Domtyler said above, the eTrex is the model to go for. I've just bought a eTrex Vista with full Euro mapping and it's excellent. I've programmed it to go "bike" routes and it's brought me some great routes around London that I'd never have taken. 
There's a write up of it here: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/board/message/?o=3Tzut&thread_id=81195&v=n&page=1&nested=0

Aidan


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## Bigtallfatbloke (28 Jun 2008)

Ok....thanks for all the cool input all.

I am about to commit to one of these gizmos and I would like to just run my thought past you all just in case I have it all wrong. I found these links to what i think I need:

Garmin GPS 60CSx
http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-gpsmap-60csx-handheld-sat-nav-gps/10066/

http://www.limitedgoods.com/itemView.php?ProdID=58814

Are these the same units? There is a reasonable price difference...why? Did I miss something?



Handlebar mount bracket
http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-handlebar-mounting-bracket-gpsmap-60c/1608/
I am assuming this is universal for all bars...and that it isnt already supplied with the unit (?) I don't need two or these and I didnt see it listed .

Garmin mapsource city navigator Europe
http://www.limitedgoods.com/itemVie...urce=FroogleUK&medium=free&campaign=FroogleUK
http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-city-navigator-european-maps/10578/

Is this the correct city europe map to buy?

I am keen to ensure that i get the European/uk version and NOT the American version.

I want to buy the package that let's me plan my routes on a pc and upload to the GPS unit, AS WELL as being able to programme the GPS unit out on the road when I have no PC access. Am I correct in thinking that the units on these links will do this?

One last thing.I don't have long now before the off...just a couple of weeks, so i need to get this right. Is there anything else that i would need to order at this time?? have I missed anything? Does anybody else know anywhere I can get this stuff cheaper?

Apologies for being dumb...this is all new to me & I value your opinions . Thanks for your patiance.


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## MockCyclist (28 Jun 2008)

The one labelled GARMIN 100042200 would seem to be an American version - see here and click 'versions'

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=145&pID=310

The bike mount looks like the one I use. I had to buy it separately.

Don't buy maps on an SD card, you can't use them on your pc. You need to buy the cd/dvd based mapping which you use on the pc or load it to your gps unit. You might want to add a 2gb micro sd card into your budget, so you can load big areas of mapping.

I too get confused with all the Garmin mapping with ever-so-close but slightly different names. I think the Ver.9 one at £72.97 is correct, but this one: http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-city-navigator-europe-dvd/11598/#specifications
seems to be the same at £140. I have a feeling ver.9 is an older model. Suggest research this a bit more before buying to be sure.

There's a really good Garmin FAQ here:
http://www.mousetrap.net/~mouse/gps/faq.html#twmanager

You can use the unit on-road for finding and getting directions to campsites, towns, cashpoints, etc. etc. and you could map your own scenic route using the 4-way pointer thingy on-screen but it would be a bit tedious.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (28 Jun 2008)

Ta...so if I went for these I'd be doing the right thing?

http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-city-navigator-europe-dvd/11598/

http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-handlebar-mounting-bracket-gpsmap-60c/1608/

http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-gpsmap-60csx-handheld-sat-nav-gps/10066/


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## andrew_s (28 Jun 2008)

Those are what I use, and it all works well.

Automatic route calculation is supported. This means that you get a beep & instructions at every junction, not just those you set a waypoint at. As a result, you can get away with far fewer waypoints - about 1 per 10km, depending on urban/rural. It takes 30s to 1min (depends on how much of a name you give it) to enter a waypoint on the GPS. This means that it's feasible to set up a day's ride on the GPS, doing your planning on a 1:250,000 or similar paper map -> flexible tours.


Money-saving options

a) get an eTrex Vista HCx (a bit smaller, smaller screen), or an eTrex Legend HCx (as Vista, but no electronic compass or barometric altimeter).
These take a different bike mount.

 Get your City Navigator on SD card. It doesn't work on the PC so you have to use Bikely or whatever, and you won't be able to copy the card so if you lose or damage it, tough.

c) Get Metroguide Europe instead of City Navigator. It officially only does automatic route calculation on the PC, but a chap in the Netherlands sells a bit of software that persuades it to auto-route on the GPS too. I'd get the Metrogold.
*Warning:* the Metroguide linked to above is v6 (2003). Current is V9. The old versions are missing coverage over large areas (eg much of Spain), so either check it's not just an out-of-date description or buy elsewhere.

PS. I agree that the 605/705 aren't the best option for touring.

Re different price versions of City Navigator.
about £130-140 has been the standard price for CN Europe for a long time, with Metroguide Europe being about £90-100. There's a new version of CN out with the "NT" suffix on the names. I don't know what the extra is, but the older non-NT versions work fine. I can only assume that they are being sold off cheap as end of line or something.

There's no problem with buying a US model apart from any possible warranty problems (no idea if there is or not), provided that you are getting European CN, Topo or Metroguide maps to load on to it. If you don't load any maps it's got a fairly crude built in main road map (M/A/ that you can use. In US models you get US roads instead - hence none at all in the UK.


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## wallabyhunter (30 Jun 2008)

> A quick Google shows that purelygadgets.co.uk sell a GPSMAP 60CSX for less than a 705 and £31 more than the 605. (I've never dealt with this company). The mapping is expensive but is the same whichever unit you have.



I use an old GPS 60C, clips to the handle bars so you can see where your going. But it only has 50 mb mem & you can't insert cards, so I have to load from the lap top when I want different maps. All the newer ones would take cards.

The software is City Navigator v9. BEWARE! some garmin retailers were selling this for $595 in aus (300 gbp) I bought it for $295 from a gps/communications shop. It has all the back roads of Lancs I've need to use so far.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (30 Jun 2008)

> Basket
> Garmin City Navigator Europe DVD 1 @ £139.99 £139.99
> Handlebar mounting bracket GPSMAP 60C 1 @ £12.38 £12.38
> 1: Garmin GPSMAP 60CSX 1 @ £215.99 £215.99
> ...



....so should I hit the button??


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## wallabyhunter (30 Jun 2008)

> ....so should I hit the button??



It works for me, if the cost is within budget, I'd go.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (1 Jul 2008)

Do you think I need this as well?
http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-mapsource-trip-waypoint-manager/1589/
the seller says I do...I am unsure?


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## MockCyclist (1 Jul 2008)

Don't see why you should. It should be in the box. In fact it's listed as In The Box on your link.


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## CopperBrompton (1 Jul 2008)

That's a good setup. If you don't need tide timetables, then the Vista HCx will give you the same functionality with greater battery life (25 hours vs 18 hours) in a lighter unit.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (1 Jul 2008)

ok thanks..



> If you don't need tide timetables, then the Vista HCx will give you the same functionality with greater battery life (25 hours vs 18 hours) in a lighter unit.



...well i dont need tide time tables, this unit is cheaper but are you sure it does the same stuff just as well? Will it work with city europe navigator dvd mapping so i can plan routes on a PC as well as on the GPS unit?


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## MockCyclist (1 Jul 2008)

BTFB, did you have a look at the Garmin website? You can compare models and the eTrex Vista seems to do all the 60CSx does, bar tide tables; and you've got to buy your own sd card, but I think you'll be upgrading to a 2gb anyway.

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/compare...ompare&compareProduct=8703&compareProduct=310

I've never seen a Vista but one thing I would say about the 60CSx: When mounted on the bike, all the buttons are accessible from the front and are clearly labelled. The Vista seems to have side mounted buttons and for me that would spoil it.


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## NickM (1 Jul 2008)

MockCyclist said:


> ...I've never seen a Vista but one thing I would say about the 60CSx: When mounted on the bike, all the buttons are accessible from the front and are clearly labelled. The Vista seems to have side mounted buttons and for me that would spoil it.


Not a problem if you make yourself a GPS mount from an old Cinelli Spinaci (or its 3TTT equivalent, the Tiramisu). You just cut off a straight section of tube and mount it in one clamp, with the original rubber plug in each end. Then you mount the Garmin bracket on the tube.

It is quite rigid enough for button pressing on the move, lifts the GPS up to where you can see it and press all its buttons easily, and allows you to have the GPS above the stem, where it is out of the way.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (1 Jul 2008)

Ther eis some confusion between myself and the dealer as to which city europe version I need. The cheaper one (SD version) or the DVD version at £50 more . Both come with Garmin Mapsource Trip & Waypoint Manager Software and he says that means I can plan a route on the pC and upload to the GPS and vice versa...I am not convinced he knows wtf he is talking about...but I dont want to pay for something I dont need. I have to get it right as I leave soon.
Any thoughts?


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## MockCyclist (1 Jul 2008)

He's probably right, sort of.

Garmin Mapsource includes Trip and Waypoint Manager which includes a basic European map. Just motorways and trunk roads, no minor roads and no streets in towns. In fact only major cities are marked.

As I understand it, if you buy the sd card mapping you can't get that onto your pc. But that doesn't stop you using the basic inbuilt pc mapping that everybody gets with MapSource, to plan a route on your pc, then upload it to your gps where the route would be overlaid on your fully detailed maps.

Likewise you could plan a route using Bikely or whatever and then upload that to your gps. You still need MapSource to do the actual transfer ... it all sounds very complicated but once you've used it a bit it's straightforward.

So yes, you could manage with the sd card mapping if you are content with not being able to use that on your pc.


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## yello (1 Jul 2008)

You don't need mapping software on a PC to route build; there are a few web sites (e.g. www.mapmyride.com) that allow you to plot a route and save it on your PC as a gpx file. That file can then be sent to GPS using a free sofware tool like GPSBabel.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (1 Jul 2008)

ok..so let's say I went for a Garmin etrex vista hcx and the european city navigator sd card maps and a mount..like this:

1: Garmin eTrex Vista® HCx @ £167.99 £167.99 
Garmin Large Rail mount motorcycle Etrex Vista/Legend C Series @ £14.99 £14.99 
Garmin City Navigator Euro Maps @ £79.99 £79.99 




.it'd be cheaper..and you say i could pretty much use google maps or map my ride or bike route toaster etc to plan a ride then save that file and upload that file to the etrex?
Do I really need the dvd option of cicty navigator then...it seems well expensive?

If I can sit on my pc and plan a route in google maps etc, save a file then upload it to the etrex that would probably do me for what i need I reckon...is that totally possible?
I have been trying all day to get straight answers from Garmin and the two dealers...all of whom seem to have had some kind of brain amputation today....except Garmin who dont answer the phone...ever it seems.

Also how easy would it be to plan a route and upload to the etrex in a cycber cafe on tour?

I have to decide tonight and order tomorrow latest, as I need time to learn how to drive the new toy before the off.


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## yello (1 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> If I can sit on my pc and plan a route in google maps etc, save a file then upload it to the etrex that would probably do me for what i need I reckon...is that totally possible?



Totally. It's what I do with my 305 and, before that, my Etrex Legend.

In fact, I had TrackLogs on my PC but preferred Mapmyride! It was less pfaffing to get the gpx plot to the GPS!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (1 Jul 2008)

I think I may end up spending more on the GPSmap 60 csx, but getting the city navigator sd card version and doing any PC route planning in mapmy ride and uploading it...I assume that works to?
Th eetrex vista looks like asmall screen and the display isnt so good to my eyes...also there are several videos of it on you tube showing problems with it freezing up.

[rant] why on earth do garmin make it do dam hard to buy their products??...I mean all i want to do is give them some cash...and they (and their dealers) seem to go out of their way to make it as hard as possible to get clear and accurate information prior to purchase. It seems they just rely on the consumer to be more knowledgeable than they are, really it's a nightmare for any gps 'novice' like em. It's so easy to buy the wrong product on line[/rant]


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## CopperBrompton (1 Jul 2008)

You can do it without the City Navigator maps, but personally I'd say they are worth the money. Mapsource is a superb bit of software for route-planning. You are also entitled to a second unlock code free of charge, so if you decide to get a second GPS (eg. for a car) or to upgrade, you can use the same maps on that without having to buy them again.

Ben


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## Bigtallfatbloke (2 Jul 2008)

..hmm..starting to lose sleep over all the options...I guess this is the bit where being a 4x4 driver has it's advantages....easy, cheap tom tom with no power limitations etc...oh well...
this morning I am back to thinking 'sod it...I'll lay out the cash and go with the 60csx, DVd europe navigator packages....at least it will do what I need and hopefully fairly easily (i.e no farting around on different mappy type sites etc)
The battery lif eis a concern though...18 hours is sure to be less in reality I reckon....so then I'm into lugging batteries around, spending a fortune on them as I ride, or buying a solar battery charger add on for my free loader.

My head is telling me to get the best I can stretch to, then try to recoup the cash for my new road bike after my tour somehow....my heart is screaming DONT FORGET THE BIANCHI!!


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## rich p (2 Jul 2008)

Here's a thought. Why not buy a map and tour with an element of "where life takes you" spirit and buy the bianchi too. I'm pretty certain that I'd get a lot more pleasure out of a new road bike than out of a gadget telling me where to go!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (2 Jul 2008)

That is where i have been for a few months in my own mind Rich. I went all through this GPS thing once before and resolved that the best thing was to go with paper maps. However...that was just for Germany, where I will be riding with a German national cyclist (with maps!). When we split in Basel (or Freidrichshafen) my options include riding down to Montpellier from there on me tod. I have adequate paper maps for that section for th eout of town stuff. It is the getting through towns like Lyon etc that worry me (I still get lost in Chelmsford !)
So this sat nav thing is for the latter leg of the trip mostly.
I have to say here that things in my life are so up in th eair right now that I may just keep going and not come back...in which case the sat nav thing is a must have I reckon and the bianchi become irrelevant....I thought about leaving the sat nav purchase until I get to southern germany when I will know more about what is happeneing...only thing is getting hold of an english version of the garmin in Germany at a similar price as I wont be able to buy online over there.

I'm pretty confused and mixed up generally at the moment.


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## NickM (2 Jul 2008)

GPS, once mastered (to the necessary limited extent - I did it, and I have no interest in technical stuff for its own sake, purely as a tool), is incredibly _liberating_ and IMO adds more to the cycling experience than a new bike is likely to do.

Just _not needing to stop and ponder the map at junctions _is wonderful, especially if like me you have 51-year-old vision. Staying away from main roads, but making steady progress towards your destination, is most excellent. Having confidence that you will not get lost is great. And you _can_ "get lost" on a whim if you want to, and the GPS will get you unlost when you've had enough.

I have had great success with a Legend Cx, Tracklogs for UK route planning and Garmin mapping (on the PC) for trips to the Continent. I use the compass arrow screen. With a little experience, it is easy to interpret what it wants you to do at almost every junction.

I find the Garmin mapping a bit hard on the eyes for route planning, certainly compared with Tracklogs OS Landranger PC mapping; and it does not distinguish (in the version I have, anyway) between fairly busy B-type roads, quiet minor lanes and farm tracks. So for Europe I prefer to do the _planning_ on paper maps (I still _like_ maps), and then create the route in software. This works well for me because I tend to do centre-based tours, so don't have to buy lots of paper maps. Web-based mapping _might_ be a viable alternative for planning, but like BTFB I am disinclined to mess about learning how to use umpteen different bits of software.

One other caveat: the instruction manual provided with a Garmin GPS is IMO simply not good enough for such an excellent and sophisticated device; I find it poorly organised and inadequately indexed. But there is plenty of cycling-specific guidance to its use on the Web, and plenty of advice available here and on other forums.


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## yello (2 Jul 2008)

Forget the GPS then btfb. Seriously, it really isn't worth the stress and anguish. You can tour perfectly adequately with maps. Besides, maps have a distinct advantage over GPS in that the batteries don't run out, they don't need satellites and you don't have to pfaff around plotting and loading files etc. 

They're also much more fun, I think, to look at the end of the day when surveying your day's mileage and deciding on the next day's route. Maps also give you the perfect excuse for a rest - stopping at an intersection just to check where you are! Yes, GPS gadgets are fun and definitely useful, but hardly essential. They can also be frustrating, believe me!! 

Besides, you can't really get lost in Europe as you're never very far from assistance or direction if it's needed. 

So, forget the GPS and save the dosh for the bike.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (2 Jul 2008)

Both routes have merits...when I ride alone I think I would prefer the freedom and ease of the sat nav directions...i hate stopping at every tree to look at the maps especially if it's cold and wet.

...however I have just torn out about 50 pages of my road atlas maps and drawn a highlighted line through them to follow...doesnt look much like a gps though

Does anybody know if the Garmin units have a language switch option, you lnow like on a mobile phone? Sop if I bought a unit in Germany say, would I be able to set it so the unit displays instructions etc in English, not German??

If so I may delay the purchase until i get over there.


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## rich p (2 Jul 2008)

I navigate through cities that are unavoidable using a map to give a rough direction, a compass and helpful locals. Last year I had a bloke who was shopping on a bike navigate me out of Verona amongst many other helpers. The map thing may slow you down a little bit but it's hassle free, doesn't need charging and you can always buy the next one en route and spend a while each evening planning the next day over a bottle of wine. I can't actually believe that the satnav could negotiate a city using alleyways, cyclepaths, pedestrian areas etc. But each to his own.


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## NickM (2 Jul 2008)

rich p said:


> I can't actually believe that the satnav could negotiate a city using alleyways, cyclepaths, pedestrian areas etc...



This time last week I went into Roeselare, Belgium, and out the other side by GPS. A town rather than a big city, I'll grant you, but it worked fine, I emerged on the right road, and I see no reason why the GPS wouldn't cope just as well in a major city.

Still, chacun a son gout (as they _don't_ say in West Flanders )


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## Bigtallfatbloke (2 Jul 2008)

well i finally took the plunge and stopped farting around like an old Git...hope I took the right decision...guess i'll find out soon enough eh!?

This is what I just ordered:

http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-gpsmap-60csx-handheld-sat-nav-gps/10066/

£214

http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/products/details/garmin-city-navigator-european-maps/10578/

£67.99

http://www.mynewcheap.co.uk/product...nting-bracket-gpsmap-60c/1608/#specifications

£12.38

(with an extra wide bar option gizmo not listed on the site) £7.99

Shipping for friday delivery £5.95

Total £309.15



I went for the better unit because apparently it works better in built up areas and forests etc and has a bigger display (ish). I decided against the DVD maps and went for the SD cards maps because Garmin said I did not need the DVD maps because I could easily use google earth, map my ride etc and upload the file through the software I get with the 60CSX into the GPS and it will take that route and display it on the city europe map. The only real benefit in the DVD is if I have access to a PC without a web connection (unlikely). My plan is to load the route in stages. I will plan it out on mapmyride, save the GPX files onto a memory stick and take it with me on tour. Then when I need to upload a new route I can do so in a cybercafe...well thats the plan anyway.
The extra wide bike mount I orderd is not on their site, but I am promised it will fit oversized bars up to 35mm across.
To be honest the experience of buying this stuff has probably taken several months off my life expectancy...the dealer wasn't exactly 'customer focused' let's say....and garmin (although helpful when you can speak to them) are difficult to get through to.

Garmin said I would have a long 'learning curve' to get through when it arrives...hmm...sounds ominous, but I guess all good things come with those these days. I will keep you informed as to how it all works (assuming it actually does!)

Thanks again for all your help and patience.
Cheerz.

p.s. this means the difference between a 928 and a via nirone in real terms...but hey time is a good healer right?


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## NickM (3 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> ...My plan is to load the route in stages. I will plan it out on mapmyride, save the GPX files onto a memory stick and take it with me on tour. Then when I need to upload a new route I can do so in a cybercafe...well thats the plan anyway...


For this to work, I _think_ you will need to check that the GPS is visible to Windows as a drive when plugged into a USB port. Otherwise, you would need Mapsource to be installed on the PC you were using to transfer files to the GPS, wouldn't you?

I have always used Mapsource or Tracklogs to transfer routes to my Legend Cx, so I'm no expert - no doubt one will be along shortly!


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Jul 2008)

I have bad feeling you are right...and this willall turn out to be a bloody expensive nightmare which end up in me using paper maps and following onion sellers on bikes across town


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## MockCyclist (3 Jul 2008)

No, it doesn't work like that.

Actually you can put the 60CSx in a mode where it appears as a drive letter but that isn't how you load routes. The tracklogs, not routes, are stored on the card and you just get them from the drive (sd card) when you want. The sd card needs sufficient space to load the map area that you want, but even that is done via MapSource, not by copying it to the sd card via Windows.

Routes are stored in its own memory. They are uploaded by the "send to Device" function via usb.

You can store 50 routes, but I *think* the 1000 waypoint limit is for all 50.

To create a route on tour you would really need your own pc with MapSource installed, but if you're getting the sd card mapping you would have to create the route using the basic Trip and Waypoint Manager, unless you have internet connection to use bikeroutetoaster.

If you just want to create a way through an unfamiliar city, though, you would just pick "find" on the gps and select some poi that was in your sights and ask for an on-road route to get you there. It works.

PS tracklogs is the Garmin term for the path you travelled, not to be confused with thesoftware package of the same name.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Jul 2008)

..erm...ok...but being a nob much of that went over my head (sorry). So does it mean that I can save 50 routes on the gPS from my pc at home before I go? If I had another card could I take more routes and swap cards half way round the tour?

I wont have any access to a PC (other than a cyber cafe) .

1000 waypoints are nowhere near enough for this trip...hmm...maybe I should have stuck with paper afterall...I thought I could pre load/carry my entire route with me somehow having pre planned it at home before the off. For example her eis a summary of the route from friedrichshaffen to Basel from bikeroutetoaster:

Course Details
*Track Points	
1743*
Distance	
187.98
kms
Estimated Time	
9:08:17
Ascent	
1457
meters
Descent	
1621
meters
Start Elevation	
422
meters
Finish Elevation	
258
meters
Minimum Elevation	
248
meters
Maximum Elevation	
465
meter

...and this is one of the shorter legs/routes.

looking at this it seems to me that this route alone is too big to fit into the Garmin...if that is the case then the unit i sall but useless to me except for the direction finder thing you mention above....which I could have got in a cheaper unit.

My wife has a basic tom tom sat nav for her car and she can navigate across all of europe with it and has done so. It doesnt require any of this uploading etc...the only thing is the battery life is only 5 hours ish...it's also cheaper than the garmin set up....I'm starting to think cyclists ar ebeing ripped off here....

Having to carry my own pc is never going to happen...perhaps Garmin should make this clear in their sales blurb....I feel conned.....anyway It will arrive tomorrow hopefully and maybe I will feel different when I get to play around with the unit....I will wait and see...I dont want to sound all neggy just yet...perhpas I just misunderstood something....but you know Garmin really need telling that their pre sales blurb and dealers are absolutly user unfriendly.


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## MockCyclist (3 Jul 2008)

Yes, you could save 50 routes to the gps but I think that would average out to 20 waypoints each which wouldn't be much of a route.

Were you about to say could you save another 50 to a second sd card? No, routes are stored in the internal memory of the 60CSx. Maps (and tracklogs - the record of where you actually went) are saved to the sd card.

I've saved about 20 routes to the unit for a short tour, though I did run against that 1000 waypoint limit.


Oh, you've finished your post now .....

Once you start to plan your routes on screen you will find that you can cut the waypoints back to a minimum and still get good directions.

You could use the unit just like a tom tom in the sense that you could arrive at a town, have a quick look at your large scale map to pick your next 50 miles, then just ask the gps to navigate you there. No route planning at all, and you do get a choice of route styles, fastest, shortest, etc.

Or, you ask it to find a campsite and it pops up with a list, nearest first, you just pick one and ask to navigate there.

Oh, you've edited your post again .....


Right. friedrichshaffen to Basel. Google maps reports 143km. Your scenic route is 188 km and 1743 points. I would guess that once you start using the gps you will learn how to cut right back on waypoints and still get good directions. 

I'm looking at a 908km route downloaded of t'internet and it has 598 points. Zooming in, it looks to have plenty of waypoints. If I wanted to use the route I would divide it into 9 100km sections and follow each in turn.

PS
Google maps reports 177 km not 143 but it doesn't detract from what I say.

Are you using auto-routing in bikeroutetoaster? That will give you millions of waypoints because it follows the road precisely. Just click your own waypounts and join them up with straight lines.


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## NickM (3 Jul 2008)

This bloody GPS terminology, and the lack of consistency in its use between one supplier of hardware or software and another, is what makes GPS so hard to understand - routes, tracks, tracklogs, trackpoints, waypoints... grrrrrr. But that is not entirely Garmin's fault.

Anyway, BTFB: how about letting the GPS work out its own route between specified start and end points, telling it to avoid main roads and to go via just enough specified points to take you the way you want to go? That should work, I reckon 

edit: Ah, there you are - MockCyclist agrees with me 

edit2: GPS expert "frankly frankie" (over on yet another cycling forum - he is Francis Cooke, AUK's technical whizz) reckons that setting auto routing parameters to "Delivery Van" on the GPS produces better routes than the "Bicycle" setting


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Jul 2008)

Thanks...guess I'll get into the swing of it soon hopefully. 





> Or, you ask it to find a campsite and it pops up with a list, nearest first, you just pick one and ask to navigate there.



Does the unit/city europe maps have the campsite info already onboard or do i need to programme all that in?




That route to Basel I did this morning in biketoaster and i was deliberatly trying to minimise the waypoints...however this was the minimum I could get awy with without it automatically sending me off onto the major roads all the time. One thing I did notice was that the summary shows a dramatically increased number of waypoints to what I actually put in myself...whic was more in the region of about 20 max....I dont understand what happened there.
One thing I am going to do is take th epaper maps as well...at least until I can trust myself with this new toy!
Thanks for helping.

p.s one other question...you mention being able to download routes off the net which are already planned (by other cyclists I assume?) Is the a good place I can go to look/get those...particulary for Germany/ France?...might save me some work. Ta.


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## MockCyclist (3 Jul 2008)

I just did that route in bikeroutetoaster with auto-routing and got 1246 waypoints.

Turn off auto-routing, turn off Add Course Points. That's why you've got extra waypoints.

Campsite info, cashpoints, hotels, Macdonalds, Best Western, lots of other stuff, it's all part of your City Navigator.

Yes, definitely take a paper map as well. 

I've used routes from here and they were superb, I barely referenced a map at all and almost every turn was dead right.

http://www.gpstracks.nl/

If you go to bikely or mapmyride, you can search for routes by name.


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## NickM (3 Jul 2008)

MockCyclist said:


> ...I've used routes from here and they were superb, I barely referenced a map at all and almost every turn was dead right.
> 
> http://www.gpstracks.nl/


Nice resource, MC 

Loadsa routes in Belgium, woohoo!


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## MockCyclist (3 Jul 2008)

Of course, if you can't actually read the language of the site and don't know the geographical areas it can be hard to know what to download.

I ended up downloading all of them for the area that I was touring and put them all in one Garmin file so that I could see exacly what routes were available on one map. All the route intersections were clearly visible. Then I cut and joined a big circular route that fitted with my plans. MapSource is excellent for that.


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## NickM (3 Jul 2008)

NickM said:


> ...you would need Mapsource to be installed on the PC you were using to transfer files to the GPS, wouldn't you?



Further to the above, I think I have an answer.

GPSBabel will allow you to load .gpx files into a GPS without Mapsource. Furthermore, it is available as an .exe file, so you can carry it around on a memory stick along with your route library and run it to load up your GPS wherever you can find a PC. It is not the friendliest of programs, but will solve your problem, I reckon 

But just in case it doesn't work, please test this suggestion before depending upon it!

PS there is lots of helpful stuff, written in a style which even I (who am techno-reluctant) can understand, here (click on "GPS", at bottom right in the blue panel)


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## yello (3 Jul 2008)

Like I said, 2 days ago!



yello said:


> You don't need mapping software on a PC to route build; there are a few web sites (e.g. www.mapmyride.com) that allow you to plot a route and save it on your PC as a gpx file. *That file can then be sent to GPS using a free sofware tool like GPSBabel*.





MotionBased (the Garmin route logging site) will allow you to upload a gpx format and download a crs (Garmin course file) if you prefer.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Jul 2008)

Thanks guys...I will try that babel site thing when I get the unit tomorrow...I found out my memory stick is 2gb which I am told by teenagers is big.

I managed to download the gps file for the romantic strasse in germany (and unzip it I think)...but I cannot do anything with it...I assume I will be able to do something when I have th eunti and the mapsource thing installed.

http://www.gpstracks.nl/
is a cool site...are there any other such places (preferably in English)? ...My Dutch (or was that Flemish??) isnt so good these days

I will try to use bike toaster without th eautorouting etc...thanks for the tip


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## yello (3 Jul 2008)

Bigtallfatbloke said:


> I managed to download the gps file for the romantic strasse in germany (and unzip it I think)...but I cannot do anything with it...I assume I will be able to do something when I have th eunti and the mapsource thing installed.



You could upload it to one of the web sites (toaster, mapmyride or even motionbased) just to have a look. If the file has a .gpx extension (end bit of the file name) then it should upload just fine. It's a useful way to check the format is good before sending it to your GPS.


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## Bigtallfatbloke (3 Jul 2008)

> You could upload it to one of the web sites (toaster, mapmyride or even motionbased) just to have a look. If the file has a .gpx extension (end bit of the file name) then it should upload just fine. It's a useful way to check the format is good before sending it to your GPS.



Ha! Cool...I jus tuploaded it to biketoaster and it's all there...easy peezy...so I can then do the same thing and have it in my GPS tomorrow hopefully.


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## yello (3 Jul 2008)

Good man btfb! There's quite a sense of satisfaction of moving these files around; uploading, downloading etc. 

If you're using a windows PC, GPSBabel should be a doddle to use as it's all GUI and friendly to use; all point and click etc. I use linux and it's not quite so straight forward.


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## HJ (3 Jul 2008)

If you are wanting software to communicate with any GPS try GPS Utility.


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