# Secondhand Raleigh Junior Rigid MTB: lemon or worth a punt?



## Reynard (8 Jul 2020)

Could just use a bit of advice / reassurance to make sure I'm not potentially ending up with a lemon...

Local recycling place has a Raleigh Max 24 junior MTB up for grabs for a pony. Seems to be a smaller version of the adult bike as far as I can tell. I think it's my size (or at least in the ballpark) and am of a mind that with a little tweaking, it'll make a nice knockaround / bad weather / crappy road condition / go anywhere bike. To be honest, I'm really in the market for a hardtail frame and forks as a project, but right now that's not an option thanks to the current situation. This would be (if things go to plan) a reasonable stopgap in the meantime.

Spec is as follows, as best I can tell:

15 inch frame, 24 inch wheels (I'm 4ft 11 btw)
15 speed (3x5)
Twist shifters
Centre pull brakes

I'd guess the bike to be about 15 to 20 years old, maybe a bit older. It doesn't look *too* shabby.







Maybe some of you who are familiar with Raleigh bikes could give me a bit of a heads up? @SkipdiverJohn ? @Gunk ?

Other than basic fettling, the eventual plan is to upgrade the drivetrain a bit, fit trigger shifters, a more suitable saddle and pedals, ergon grips, mudguards etc. Although I don't want to buy the bike or put in any outlay for parts if it started out as a BSO. I don't think it is a BSO, but...


----------



## DRM (8 Jul 2020)

it doesn't look too shabby, I'd be tempted to get it, try it out & see what needs doing, if it's not for you, sell it on, I doubt you'd be out of pocket


----------



## raleighnut (8 Jul 2020)

^^^^^^ +1

I'd go for it


----------



## Reynard (9 Jul 2020)

Well, for better or for worse, I've reserved it. 

I now have till Friday evening to make up my mind without worrying whether someone else will get to it first.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (9 Jul 2020)

From the appearance of the frame, I would say it is not a Nottingham fabricated one, so most likely made after 1999. I have several old Raleighs, albeit in much larger sizes than the one you are contemplating. Given it seems pretty tidy and is not silly money, I would take a chance. It may be basic, but it won't be a BSO.
Generally, my approach is to buy the sort of bike I'm after to begin with, and then not mess around with it apart from normal maintenance and tyre fitting etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with the 3 x 5 transmission, I've got a MTB from 1989 still running this set up. If in good condition I would not make any changes to it. Likewise if the gear shifters work as they should I would keep them until such time one fails before changing to anything else. Saddles are a personal thing and either you will be lucky with the saddle it comes with and it will be comfortable, or you don't get on with it and you might want to try something else.


----------



## Reynard (9 Jul 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> From the appearance of the frame, I would say it is not a Nottingham fabricated one, so most likely made after 1999. I have several old Raleighs, albeit in much larger sizes than the one you are contemplating. Given it seems pretty tidy and is not silly money, I would take a chance. It may be basic, but it won't be a BSO.
> Generally, my approach is to buy the sort of bike I'm after to begin with, and then not mess around with it apart from normal maintenance and tyre fitting etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with the 3 x 5 transmission, I've got a MTB from 1989 still running this set up. If in good condition I would not make any changes to it. Likewise if the gear shifters work as they should I would keep them until such time one fails before changing to anything else. Saddles are a personal thing and either you will be lucky with the saddle it comes with and it will be comfortable, or you don't get on with it and you might want to try something else.



Ah, thanks for the heads up.  

My problem is that I'm short, and at the budget that I have if I were buying new, I find myself in an awkward gap where the adult bikes are too big and most junior ones are too cramped and / or don't have gearing I'm comfortable with. And for a bike that will likely get the least mileage out of my little fleet, it's no point spending silly money. Hence the second hand route in the search for a donor frame and forks to build up a bike I'd be happy to ride.

I'm well sorted for road bike and hybrid, but not for "mucky" riding. Out here in the fens, things do get very mucky at sugar beet and potato lifting times, and, to quote a forum member who rode out my way last week, the roads in places are biblically bad...

There's nothing wrong with 3 x 5 gearing. It's not so much about upgrading the gearing, but getting comfortable gearing. I doubt I'd be able to get anything bigger than a 5 speed cassette / freewheel (am assuming it's the latter) on it anyway, maybe a 6 at a pinch... It's very flat out here, and I don't want to be spinning furiously and not really going anywhere...  

Of course, assuming it fits, and assuming I'll buy it, I won't know until I ride the thing whether any changes are needed there - it's still all pretty hypothetical.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (10 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> There's nothing wrong with 3 x 5 gearing. It's not so much about upgrading the gearing, but getting comfortable gearing. I doubt I'd be able to get anything bigger than a 5 speed cassette / freewheel (am assuming it's the latter) on it anyway, maybe a 6 at a pinch... It's very flat out here, and I don't want to be spinning furiously and not really going anywhere...



I don't generally ever find myself wishing I had a higher top gear on any of my bikes, irrespective of the number of ratios I have to choose from.
My flat bar bikes are mostly 28/38/48 triples with 14-28T freewheels. That gives me a high gear of 93" on 27" road wheels and 89" on 26" MTB. If you had a 48T/14T combo on the Raleigh, you would have a high gear of 82" on a 24" wheel. That might be low by road bike standards, but on flat bars and MTB tyres, you don't have the same speed potential anyway. In reality, I very rarely actually use my highest available gear. The one that does tend to get used quite a bit is the highest but one, so on a 3 x 5 set up, I will often be riding a 48T/17T or 48T/16T combo on 26" MTB wheels, or a 48T/16T combo on a 700c hybrid which means ratios of 73", 78" and 81" respectively. In practice, I simply don't have much need for gears much more than about 80", when you factor in the aerodynamic drag of flat bar riding plus knobbly tyres when on an MTB.
If your potential Raleigh purchase was found to have a 24/34/42T triple then I agree it might be a bit low geared, but I'm sure it could be swapped for a triple with a higher tooth count at minimal cost and hassle. I'm sure it would be simpler than trying to alter the gearing at the back, given there won't be much choice of 5 speed freewheels.


----------



## fossyant (10 Jul 2020)

Go for it. My daughter is 17 and still rides her 24" wheeled MTB - we even lent it to my son's friend for an afternoon. My wife is 5.-4ish, but she has an XS suspension MTB - only just small enough to fit the 100mm dropper post, and she even has to lower the dropper to get on it due to suspension bikes being 'higher' when unweighted.


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2020)

Well, I'm heading off after lunch to have a poke and prod. 

@SkipdiverJohn - the gearing on my roadie and hybrid are pretty well much bang on for my needs, but having tried out a number of junior mountain bikes over the last year or so, I've found that typically, they're pretty low geared compared to the other two. Fine if you live somewhere hilly, but I don't.  I still have the 5 speed freewheel off my old MTB, which looks to have bigger sprockets than what's fitted to the Raleigh, (that bike was a 10-speed) so I can always swap it over, assuming the fittings are the same. Tinkering with the chainrings was always an option as well.  Oh, and I plan on fitting some semi-slick tyres.

FWIW, my hybrid (26 inch wheels) runs 44-32-22 on the front and 11-34 on the back, and my roadie (650c wheels) runs 46-34 on the front and 11-30 on the back.

@fossyant - I rode a 24 inch wheel MTB (late 80s vintage) for many years.  It was just a fraction too big though, with a horizontal top bar rather than compact frame. With inevitable (painful) consequences if I didn't plan junctions well in advance.  Shame really, as it *rode* really nicely once I was up and running, even though it wasn't anything terribly special.


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2020)

Well, for better or for worse, N+1 is in the house... 

The good bits: frame, forks and wheels are in good order, seat post and stem aren't stuck, there's only a few minor scuffs on the paint, it has eyes to take mudguards and it has bosses for a bottle cage.

The bad bits: tyres are completely perished, cable outers are cracked, the saddle and pedals are junk, the drivetrain looks worn and something's not quite right with the shifters. But seeing I was going to tinker with / swap out those bits anyway, it's no biggie.

The unexpected: it *is* a Nottingham-made bike. It has "Made in England to BS-can't-remember-the-number" and "Raleigh Nottingham" stickers on it plus the one from the bike shop that originally sold it.

Looks like it's been gathering dust and cobwebs in the back of someone's shed for years. Plan is to give it a good clean, put on one of my spare saddles and the tyres off my old Emmelle, take it for a spin and see where that takes me. Then I'll know what to tackle next.


----------



## raleighnut (10 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Well, for better or for worse, N+1 is in the house...
> 
> The good bits: frame, forks and wheels are in good order, seat post and stem aren't stuck, there's only a few minor scuffs on the paint, it has eyes to take mudguards and it has bosses for a bottle cage.
> 
> ...


There was always 'something wrong' with those cacky shifters even when the bike was new.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (10 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> The unexpected: it *is* a Nottingham-made bike. It has "Made in England to BS-can't-remember-the-number" and "Raleigh Nottingham" stickers on it plus the one from the bike shop that originally sold it.



Have you been able to identify the year it was made from the frame number? I own a 1999 Raleigh, one of the very last UK built frames, and your frame looks a lot different to mine, even allowing for the fact mine resembles a field gate in size and has a horizontal top tube.


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> There was always 'something wrong' with those cacky shifters even when the bike was new.



The plan is to fit trigger shifters, assuming I can find some that will work with a 5 speed. Or maybe go back to friction thumb shifters.


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Have you been able to identify the year it was made from the frame number? I own a 1999 Raleigh, one of the very last UK built frames, and your frame looks a lot different to mine, even allowing for the fact mine resembles a field gate in size and has a horizontal top tube.



Not yet. I haven't made a note of the frame number. The bike is in my garage sitting out it's quarantine, but I'll have a look tomorrow. Though it's definitely pre-April 2000, as the sticker from the dealer has an 0181 phone number.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (10 Jul 2020)

Assuming the dealer didn't have a stock of out of date stickers to use up of course.....
I believe Raleigh got their knuckles rapped by Trading Standards over the use of the word "Nottingham" on their headbadges after they stopped full in-house manufacture and had to change the design.


----------



## Reynard (10 Jul 2020)

I'll have a proper gander tomorrow, but the phone number on the sticker does put it into the 1995 - 2000 ballpark. That, and the fact that there is always the time gap between manufacture, getting it to the shop, and the bike being bought.

What's the bet it was some lucky kid's Christmas present in 1999?


----------



## Reynard (11 Jul 2020)

Bit of extra info after having a closer look this morning...

What looks to be the frame number is stamped on the seat tube just below the front mech clamp. It's hard to read under the paint alas, and after fiddling around in photoshop, the best I can do is 8045552. Maybe better daylight will reveal more.

Wheelset is Rigida, stamped "Made in England"

Tracer cranks. Can't see anything on the chainrings or freewheel.

One of the reasons why the gears aren't behaving is that the cable guide under the BB is broken.

The cable for the rear brake is internally routed.

And the South Woodford bike shop it was bought from traded between 1984 and 2007.


----------



## Reynard (11 Jul 2020)

Can one of the mods move this to the "Projects" section please?  @Pat "5mph" ? @Rickshaw Phil ?

Ta very muchly xxx


----------



## Reynard (11 Jul 2020)

Can you project bods please go gently on me, as this is my first project and I'm bound to ask some rather daft questions.  I'm still at the phase of deciding exactly how I'm going to do this and what parts I'm going to need outside of the obvious like tyres, cables,, chain, brake blocks and saddle. I'll also need to upgrade my toolkit as I see there are some items I will need that I currently do not have.

I spent the afternoon trawling the net looking for possible bits and learnt a couple of useful things along the way. I've found that 7 speed freewheels exist, whereas 5-speed trigger shifters apparently do not.

At first glance, the bike's drivetrain doesn't look great, so replacing the freewheel and chainrings is on the agenda anyway. Rather than botching something, and assuming that a 7 speed freewheel fits (I need to read up on this / ask advice), then the plan is to fit that, ditch the twist shifters and go straight to 7 speed triggers, which are readily (!) available.

Also, I plan on removing the graphics as they're godawful and not in the best condition. I rather like the idea of a mostly plain frame.


----------



## All uphill (11 Jul 2020)

I look forward to seeing your project develop!

If it was mine I'd also swap some of the heavy steel parts for aluminium, such as handlebars, stem and seatpost. That wont make a huge difference but will cost almost nothing if you buy secondhand.

There are some good videos on swapping freewheels.

Enjoy!


----------



## Reynard (11 Jul 2020)

I plan to hit youtube for various "how to" things. 

And yes, the bars and stem will probably get replaced at some stage. You can't see it from the pics, but they are pitted with rust.


----------



## raleighnut (12 Jul 2020)

All uphill said:


> I look forward to seeing your project develop!
> 
> If it was mine I'd also swap some of the heavy steel parts for aluminium, such as handlebars, stem and seatpost. That wont make a huge difference but will cost almost nothing if you buy secondhand.
> 
> ...


i'd suggest the same, but, with it being a Raleigh of that era it is likely that the stem will be a funny size unique to Raleigh although the clamp size is standard so the bars will swap OK


----------



## Reynard (12 Jul 2020)

Gave the bike a good once over with antibac cleaner this morning and have made a start.

The pedals are well stuck, so am marinating the threads in WD40.

Have removed the junk tyre from the front wheel. The tube is also kaput as it has a hole the size of my thumbnail in it. No point even trying to patch that, so will be ordering some new ones. Rim tape is good though - well, it's actually been done with an inner tube, but as there appear to be no issues with it, I'll leave that as it is for now.

The wheel is also good. It did need a fair old bit of elbow grease (and plenty of hot soapy water) to get rid of all the dirt and brake goo stuck to the rim. But other than a couple of scuffs, it's come up rather nicely. And unexpected, the rims are alloy, not steel.

The frame *is* steel though, as a magnet found it rather attractive.


----------



## Reynard (13 Jul 2020)

My old Emmelle is proving a handy source of random bits and pieces. Except for wheels, as the axles are too short. This morning I threw a tube and tyre I robbed off the Emmelle onto the cleaned up front wheel. I also removed the original saddle and it's weird non-standard clamp, and replaced it with a standard old style clamp and a Selle SMP that's in my parts box.

Then this afternoon I took the bike for an exploratory spin. Despite the fact I had to walk home (yeah, I know, the one time I don't take any tools with me) it was pretty informative, and I now have a better idea of what must be done and then at a later date, what will be nice to do but is currently not essential. As for the musts (in terms of parts), these are:

1) Tubes and tyres - will be going for a pair of hybrid tyres as I've got a set of knobblies.
2) New cables all round, inner and outer.
3) Brake blocks.
4) Layback seat post and saddle clamp - am just a bit too cramped with a straight post.
5) Metal brake levers - plastic-covered wire levers are just a tad bendy. 

For all that riding on knobblies on tarmac is like riding through treacle, the bike itself isn't bad. Of course, it will never be as zippy as a road bike, nor will it ever give the impression of being able to keep going comfortably and effortlessly all day long like a hybrid, but it feels stable and sure-footed and is actually quite fun. 

Those plastic brake levers are really unnerving though, and I am most definitely not a fan of twist shifters.

The gearing will need thinking about. As I'd presumed, much of the range is too "spinny" for the flat. The freewheel on the back is a 14-28, which is pretty well much standard. Unlike the freewheel, which is Shimano SIS, the chainrings are some no-name el-cheapo unitary construction. They're not in the best shape, so they will go. The derailleurs work, so will probably just clean them and reuse. Rear is Shimano SIS, not sure what the front one is.

On the upsides, the distance between the rear dropouts is 130 mm, so if I have read things correctly, I should be able to squeeze a 7-speed freewheel on there.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (13 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> i'd suggest the same, but, with it being a Raleigh of that era it is likely that the stem will be a funny size unique to Raleigh although the clamp size is standard so the bars will swap OK



It's possible you may encounter a 21.1mm quill stem, I know for sure one of my Raleighs is this size, but I also found one in a donor Schwinn MTB I scrapped for parts. My understanding though is this is not so much a Raleigh-specific spec, but a BMX standard, common to different makers and used because the narrower stem allowed a thicker walled steel tube to be used in the steerer, but still keeping it a nominal 1" size.


----------



## Reynard (14 Jul 2020)

The rear wheel has cleaned up nicely too. Tube and rim tape are fine, so will be keeping those. The tyre has joined its cohort on the pile of things to take to the tip, as it's quite badly cracked.

And the old shoelace trick to clean between the sprockets on the freewheel that I ran across on here a while back worked a treat. The amount of gunk that came out of there was insane.  The freewheel still needs a good bit of attention, though now that I've got a good bit of dirt off it, it's nowhere near as worn as I thought.

A trip to my LBS has yielded the tools to remove the freewheel so I can finish cleaning it and to hopefully deal with the stuck cranks. And thence, the stuck pedals.


----------



## DCBassman (15 Jul 2020)

Shifters: I've a set of EF29 3x7 shifters in the bits box. The only downside is that they are for V-brakes, and you have cantis, correct? A lot of Shimano combis are for V, no idea if there are any for cantis...


----------



## DCBassman (15 Jul 2020)

Or if you decide to go bananas and fit a freehub wheel and 8-speed cassette, then I do have shifters that will work with pretty much any brakes.


----------



## Reynard (15 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Shifters: I've a set of EF29 3x7 shifters in the bits box. The only downside is that they are for V-brakes, and you have cantis, correct? A lot of Shimano combis are for V, no idea if there are any for cantis...



Neither - I have centre pull brakes on this. Just being difficult, like... 

I've actually been looking at separate levers & shifters, still working things out, as it's nuts how many bits are out of stock right now. Am in no hurry though. I'd rather get this right than simply diving in.

Either way, the current brake levers have got to go regardless - they're the plastic covered wire ones, and it's disconcerting that the levers flex when applying pressure. I was just about to swing for some junior MTB Tektro ones, but I don't mind holding off for now.

Rear dropouts are 130, so a freehub is possible. Another 24 inch wheelset might not be the easiest to come by though., the other option would be to put new hubs onto these wheels. Am also toying with converting to QR skewers.

Really appreciate the offer of help / ideas


----------



## Reynard (15 Jul 2020)

Well, it's been one step forward, one step back today.

After several days marinating in WD 40, I have *finally* managed to remove the pedals from the cranks. They are going straight in the bin.

Also going straight in the bin after further cleaning is the freewheel. The middle sprocket has two teeth that have sheared off, and many of the teeth on other sprockets, while not worn, are twisted. Oh, and it was one of those freewheels that you remove with a hammer and punch, and *not* with a dedicated tool as I thought.

I have another 5-speed freewheel of the same type with the same ratios, so it would be a straight swap. But I'd prefer to fit a 7-speed, so will go hunting for some dimensions etc to check for feasibility.


----------



## Rusty Nails (15 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Neither - I have centre pull brakes on this. Just being difficult, like...
> 
> I've actually been looking at separate levers & shifters, still working things out, as it's nuts how many bits are out of stock right now. Am in no hurry though. I'd rather get this right than simply diving in.
> 
> ...



Those 'centre-pull' brakes are cantis (or cantilever brakes).

I have a pair of old metal canti brake levers (Lee Chi make) in the shed. Old but sound and solid, and you can have them for free if you want, just give a couple of quid to charity to cover my postage.


----------



## Reynard (15 Jul 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> Those 'centre-pull' brakes are cantis (or cantilever brakes).
> 
> I have a pair of old metal canti brake levers (Lee Chi make) in the shed. Old but sound and solid, and you can have them for free if you want, just give a couple of quid to charity to cover my postage.



OK, well every day is a school day here on CC! 

This is the current set-up. The calipers do look ok, and hopefully a service and clean should sort them though. But thanks, I'll bear you in mind if there is an issue with these ones.


----------



## Rusty Nails (15 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> OK, well every day is a school day here on CC!
> 
> This is the current set-up. The calipers do look ok, and hopefully a service and clean should sort them though. But thanks, I'll bear you in mind if there is an issue with these ones.
> 
> View attachment 536199


The cantis will be fine, but those levers always make braking feel spongy.


----------



## raleighnut (15 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> OK, well every day is a school day here on CC!
> 
> This is the current set-up. The calipers do look ok, and hopefully a service and clean should sort them though. But thanks, I'll bear you in mind if there is an issue with these ones.
> 
> View attachment 536199


V-brakes will fit onto those bosses fine if you chose to go with the 7 speed freewheel and use the combi levers offered earlier (that's what I've done with a couple of my bikes)


----------



## Reynard (15 Jul 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> The cantis will be fine, but those levers always make braking feel spongy.



Yeah, they do. They're a bit bendy when you pull on them.  But when the blocks finally "bite" on the rim, the brakes themselves are ok.



raleighnut said:


> V-brakes will fit onto those bosses fine if you chose to go with the 7 speed freewheel and use the combi levers offered earlier (that's what I've done with a couple of my bikes)



Oh. That's worth investigating.


----------



## Reynard (15 Jul 2020)

Just off on a bit of a tangent from brakes and going back to the beginning of the thread re gearing and the discussion with @SkipdiverJohn I ran some numbers through Sheldon Brown's calculator regarding my four bikes:

Wiggins Rouen road bike: 650c wheels, 46-34 up front and an 11-30 on the back.
Wiggins Chartres hybrid: 26" wheels, 44-32-22 up front and 11-34 on the back
Emmelle Leopard: 24" wheels, 48-40 up front and 14-28 on the back
Raleigh Max: 24" wheels, 42-34-24 up front and 14-28 on the back

This converts to the following ranges in gear inches

Rouen: 101 - 27.6
Chartres: 99 - 16.1
Leopard: 82.3 - 34.3
Max: 72 - 20.6

This underlines exactly what I was trying to say without knowing how to put it into numbers. 

I'm reading up like mad and learning a heck of a lot in a very short space of time!


----------



## Rusty Nails (15 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> V-brakes will fit onto those bosses fine if you chose to go with the 7 speed freewheel and use the combi levers offered earlier (that's what I've done with a couple of my bikes)



Tbh, although cantis can work well, I prefer v-brakes and you do get a better choice of reliable lever/shifters if you go 7-speed.


----------



## Reynard (15 Jul 2020)

Looks like where I go with this build hinges on whether I can go 7-speed.

I can't argue with the logic of better / more reliable components should it prove to be achievable. 

So it'll be out with the tape measure in the morning. Though I'll hold up my hands and say that the bike was a bit of an impulse buy even though I'd had a nebulous idea of doing something like this for a while.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (15 Jul 2020)

I did make a comment about the chainset possibly being lower geared than the common 28/38/48 triple, and i would agree that the 42T big ring is probably a bit small given the wheels are only 24".
Any particular reason to go for a 7 speed flywheel rather than a 6? I've got a 13-30 7 speed on one MTB and I actually prefer the 14-28 6 speed ratios! I never use the 13T when in the 48T ring with 26" wheels, and the next rear sprocket is 15T. The 13T just adds a higher ratio that I never use.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I did make a comment about the chainset possibly being lower geared than the common 28/38/48 triple, and i would agree that the 42T big ring is probably a bit small given the wheels are only 24".



The difference really stands out when you do the maths, doesn't it?  New junior mountain bikes have similar low gearing. Oddly though, my Emmelle, which dates from the mid 80s according to the serial number on the derailleur, has gearing that's much more realistic - and useable. The biggest gear on there equates more or less to what I'd be using on the flat when it's not too windy. When the wind gets up (and there's nothing to stop it out here) then granny gears are required!

I have an FSA 46T outer ring, spider and cranks amongst my bits, so there is potential there.



> Any particular reason to go for a 7 speed flywheel rather than a 6? I've got a 13-30 7 speed on one MTB and I actually prefer the 14-28 6 speed ratios! I never use the 13T when in the 48T ring with 26" wheels, and the next rear sprocket is 15T. The 13T just adds a higher ratio that I never use.



Yes, trigger shifters!


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (16 Jul 2020)

Yes, a 72" top gear is a bit limiting and if the 46T chainwheel will fit OK then it would give a more sensible ratio set up.
The trigger shifters on my 1991 Raleigh MTB are integral with the brake levers, and clamp them to the bars (Shimano 200GS) The one for the FD packed up irreparably so I disconnected it and currently run it on the middle 38T ring as a 7-speed. I was warned by the seller the front shifter was temperamental, so it came as no surprise. It's only a local knockabout so it is adequate. If you do go for 7 speed triggers it's worth investigating what the parts availability is like. My own view is indexed thumb shifters will probably have much better long term availability as they are simpler and cheaper to manufacture..


----------



## DCBassman (16 Jul 2020)

Whereas I look at some of those low-gear figures and think, "that'll do nicely!". My 700c roadie has 20.something (30-36), with the Trek mtb 26" at 19.5" (28-36).
It's geogeraffy, innit? Lumpy round here!


----------



## Rusty Nails (16 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> The difference really stands out when you do the maths, doesn't it?  New junior mountain bikes have similar low gearing. Oddly though, my Emmelle, which dates from the mid 80s according to the serial number on the derailleur, has gearing that's much more realistic - and useable. The biggest gear on there equates more or less to what I'd be using on the flat when it's not too windy. When the wind gets up (and there's nothing to stop it out here) then granny gears are required!
> 
> I have an FSA 46T outer ring, spider and cranks amongst my bits, so there is potential there.
> 
> ...



A slight word of warning about changing the crankset. You may find that your existing bottom bracket will need changing as different chainset are often designed for different BB spindle lengths.

It can be an expensive minefield when you start changing components on a bike.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Whereas I look at some of those low-gear figures and think, "that'll do nicely!". My 700c roadie has 20.something (30-36), with the Trek mtb 26" at 19.5" (28-36).
> It's geogeraffy, innit? Lumpy round here!



Whereas here it's flat, but we do tend to do a good line in arrow-straight roads and Dutch Hills. And then, those granny gears aren't half welcome.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> A slight word of warning about changing the crankset. You may find that your existing bottom bracket will need changing as different chainset are often designed for different BB spindle lengths.
> 
> It can be an expensive minefield when you start changing components on a bike.



Noted. 

When I get the cranks off, I'll measure that and see.


----------



## 12boy (16 Jul 2020)

Great project....do you know what the frame is made of? V brakes, in my experience are more powerful than sidepulls, candies or calipers. They do require different brake levers. Unless you are going off road, you might consider non-knobby tires. I'd still use a large tire for the cushiness. My mtn bike has 2" tires with only a little tread and works fine on gravel and hard dirt and isn't much more work than my road bikes. Incredibly plush ride, though. Fat tires, run a little lower on air pressure with flexible sidewalls soak up a lot of bumps. As far as the bottom bracket goes, cartridge bottom brackets are not expensive. Were that mine, I would probably ditch the cranks in favor of a 48 chain ring and 13-32 sprockets which would give a range of 88 to 36 gear inches, and a friction shifter for simplicity. And, as said earlier, replace bars, stem and seat post with used Al parts. A pound or so off the bike, though, won't make it as sprightly as good low tread tires. If those decals have been clearcoated they won't be easy to remove. Good luck with this little jewel.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

12boy said:


> Great project....do you know what the frame is made of? V brakes, in my experience are more powerful than sidepulls, candies or calipers. They do require different brake levers. Unless you are going off road, you might consider non-knobby tires. I'd still use a large tire for the cushiness. My mtn bike has 2" tires with only a little tread and works fine on gravel and hard dirt and isn't much more work than my road bikes. Incredibly plush ride, though. Fat tires, run a little lower on air pressure with flexible sidewalls soak up a lot of bumps. As far as the bottom bracket goes, cartridge bottom brackets are not expensive. Were that mine, I would probably ditch the cranks in favor of a 48 chain ring and 13-32 sprockets which would give a range of 88 to 36 gear inches, and a friction shifter for simplicity. And, as said earlier, replace bars, stem and seat post with used Al parts. A pound or so off the bike, though, won't make it as sprightly as good low tread tires. If those decals have been clearcoated they won't be easy to remove. Good luck with this little jewel.



It's a steel frame.

And yes, Schwalbe delta cruisers (or something else of that ilk) are being considered for tyres. That was always on the agenda as virtually all of my riding is on tarmac, with the odd bit of gravel. I have a spare set of 24" knobblies should I want to go off road. 

Am limited on the back unfortunately as it's a freewheel, not a freehub, and 14-28 seems to be the standard flavour for freewheels.

Fortunately the decals are stickers, so they should just peel off. Glue smears I can deal with.


----------



## DCBassman (16 Jul 2020)

https://www.taylor-wheels.com/24inch-bike-rear-wheel-aluminium-for-cassette-7-10-speed-silver, @Reynard , just in case you want to go down this route. Quick cheap shipping too.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> https://www.taylor-wheels.com/24inch-bike-rear-wheel-aluminium-for-cassette-7-10-speed-silver, @Reynard , just in case you want to go down this route. Quick cheap shipping too.



Oooh! And they do a complete wheelset as well. AND they're quick release... 

Only thing is that I'd have to cold set the rear (*wibble*) as those are 135mm axles and the ones I have are 130.

Maybe a nice Xmas pressie to myself though.  (When I've become a little bit more mechanically competent. And confident.)


----------



## All uphill (16 Jul 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> A slight word of warning about changing the crankset. You may find that your existing bottom bracket will need changing as different chainset are often designed for different BB spindle lengths.
> 
> It can be an expensive minefield when you start changing components on a bike.


True.

I took a 1990s bike that cost £25, swapped the cantis for v brakes, swapped grip shift for levers and fitted a new crankset and bottom bracket, replaced the worn out rims. Total cost around £200 but it was done gradually and I then had a really competent tourer on which I have covered around 4000 miles.

Then I had it resprayed by Argos Racing Cycles. 

Expensive or cheap? To me it's good value.


----------



## raleighnut (16 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Oooh! And they do a complete wheelset as well. AND they're quick release...
> 
> Only thing is that I'd have to cold set the rear (*wibble*) as those are 135mm axles and the ones I have are 130.
> 
> Maybe a nice Xmas pressie to myself though.  (When I've become a little bit more mechanically competent. And confident.)


Nah you can 'spring' the wheel in that 5mm just like with a 120 you can get a 126 in and with a 126 you can get a 130 in pretty easy. you'll also find after riding for a couple of years that the wheel has 'cold set' the frame for you so it'll now drop in without having to tweak the NDS stay at all.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

You guys are giving me plenty of food for thought. I think I'll end up in a similar place to @All uphill having paid the same amount for the bike, and likely to be ending up with a similar overall spend. On the flip side, if I was to buy a new bike to do what I want it to do, I'd have to spend considerably more.

Anyways, I finally managed to remove the junk freewheel, and finished cleaning the wheels. I reckon they came up reasonably well.






The hub casings are some kind of hard plastic, but they look fine. Can't see any obvious cracks or other damage. Likewise, no loose spokes, everything makes the same "twang."

I have a replacement 5-speed freewheel should it be needed. But this is how the wheel and freewheel sits in the rear dropouts. According to Sheldon, a 7-speed freewheel is about 6mm wider. (sorry, not cleaned the frame yet!)






And this is how the crankset and BB currently look. The chainrings are riveted together, so either they stay or they go completely - no halfway house here. The front mech is a Suntour btw. And am assuming, that with a bigger chainring, I will have to move the mech up to compensate.






I also cleaned up the 46T chainring and the cranks that were thrown into the deal for my Wiggins Chartres. Other than a minor scuff on one of the cranks, that lot came up good. The chainring is 130 BCD, so a decent start point.

And re the brakes, I already bought new blocks, but I will leave them in the packet for now. Should I decide to go with V brakes, they can always be returned / exchanged. I have 28 days to decide.

P.S. It was a splined freewheel. I couldn't tell because there was so much grot in there. And boy do they need some serious welly to remove.


----------



## raleighnut (16 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> You guys are giving me plenty of food for thought. I think I'll end up in a similar place to @All uphill having paid the same amount for the bike, and likely to be ending up with a similar overall spend. On the flip side, if I was to buy a new bike to do what I want it to do, I'd have to spend considerably more.
> 
> Anyways, I finally managed to remove the junk freewheel, and finished cleaning the wheels. I reckon they came up reasonably well.
> 
> ...


you'd get a 6 speed freewheel in there but a 7 would require a longer axle.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> you'd get a 6 speed freewheel in there but a 7 would require a longer axle.



I had a feeling that might be the case, as the spacing does look tight. So basically I'd need a 135mm through axle?

Was going to ask about axles anyway, as the rear has a slight wobble to it.


----------



## Rusty Nails (16 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> I had a feeling that might be the case, as the spacing does look tight. So basically I'd need a 135mm through axle?
> 
> Was going to ask about axles anyway, as the rear has a slight wobble to it.



If you fit a longer axle to take a wider freewheel you may well have to dish the wheel to get the rim to sit centrally between the stays.

Think everything through before deciding what you are going to do. Compromising on things might be necessary unless you are happy to spend a lot of money.


----------



## Reynard (16 Jul 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> If you fit a longer axle to take a wider freewheel you may well have to dish the wheel to get the rim to sit centrally between the stays.
> 
> Think everything through before deciding what you are going to do. Compromising on things might be necessary unless you are happy to spend a lot of money.



Yes, I'm aware that the wheel might need tweaking to get it to sit straight in the dropouts if a longer axle is fitted.

Right now though, I'm loving all the ideas coming in. But yes, I *WILL* have to sit down and think of where I want to go with this.

If I kept things simple, I could install the 5-speed freewheel from the Emmelle (the sprockets are exactly the same), keep the current crankset, clean everything up, touch up the paint, fit new cables, brake blocks, brake levers (can scavenge the metal ones off the Emmelle), mudguards and decent tyres and I will have an eminently useable winter bike.

Maybe just riding it for a while in its current setup will help concentrate the mind as to what's really needed.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (17 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> If I kept things simple, I could install the 5-speed freewheel from the Emmelle (the sprockets are exactly the same), keep the current crankset, clean everything up, touch up the paint, fit new cables, brake blocks, brake levers (can scavenge the metal ones off the Emmelle), mudguards and decent tyres and I will have an eminently useable winter bike.



That's pretty much the course of action I would go for. When I get a project I tend to just give it a maintenance going over and a wipe down - but otherwise pretty much leave it alone. When I do make changes that I believe will be some sort of improvement, I always look to raid my pile of take-off donor parts first to see what I have in stock. 
For example, my "best" Raleigh Pioneer, the 501 framed one, has acquired a set of roadster handlebars in place of the original MTB ones, and I saved a whole 1 1/2 ounces by replacing the steel seatpost with an alloy one. I've got a wheelset off a 99p Apollo on, as it was a quicker fix than getting the original rear wheel sufficiently true that I'd be completely happy with it. I've still got the original wheels, and nothing else has been changed apart from one brake lever (bought new for £7) and the Schwalbe tyres. It's proved to be a very versatile and comfortable machine, and still owes me a lot less than the price of a supermarket BSO even after getting two years service out of it to date.


----------



## raleighnut (17 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> I had a feeling that might be the case, as the spacing does look tight. So basically I'd need a 135mm through axle?
> 
> Was going to ask about axles anyway, as the rear has a slight wobble to it.


If you mean the freewheel oscilates slightly when you spin the wheel, 'they all do that' to a greater or lesser degree.As for the current set up you can tell Raleigh 'mackled' it a bit by fitting a full size nut to the axle instead of a half thickness cone locknut as is usual, this is a bodge I've used myself to

1) get a 126mm wide freewheel type wheel to fit nicely in a bike with 130mm spacing.*
2) enable a 7 speed freewheel to fit onto the axle with clearance to the dropout

BTW a 'through axle' is a completely different type of wheel to that fitted to yours, it's basically a long bolt that pushes all the way through the hub and screws into threads in the frame dropout. I suspect that the type you mean is a QR wheel (quick release) that has a long thin skewer through a hollow axle tube that you clamp with a lever instead of nuts.


View: https://youtu.be/4w6uqN_Pips


This should show the difference

* I suspect Raleigh did this as they had a whole shelf full of hubs that they needed to use up and fitting a thicker nut allowed this.


----------



## raleighnut (17 Jul 2020)

This picture shows a normal thin locknut on the right hand side of this QR axle.

EDIT - this is just a pictorial view of the order of assembly when rebuilding an axle, as you can see the 'locknut' is quite thin (2-3 mm) as opposed to a standard nut (5-6 mm) Raleigh could have fitted a thicker spacer as shown on the left hand side but it was probably cheaper to use a normal off the shelf nut to replace the locknut instead of making a bunch of 2-3 mm thicker spacers.


----------



## Reynard (17 Jul 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's pretty much the course of action I would go for. When I get a project I tend to just give it a maintenance going over and a wipe down - but otherwise pretty much leave it alone. When I do make changes that I believe will be some sort of improvement, I always look to raid my pile of take-off donor parts first to see what I have in stock.
> For example, my "best" Raleigh Pioneer, the 501 framed one, has acquired a set of roadster handlebars in place of the original MTB ones, and I saved a whole 1 1/2 ounces by replacing the steel seatpost with an alloy one. I've got a wheelset off a 99p Apollo on, as it was a quicker fix than getting the original rear wheel sufficiently true that I'd be completely happy with it. I've still got the original wheels, and nothing else has been changed apart from one brake lever (bought new for £7) and the Schwalbe tyres. It's proved to be a very versatile and comfortable machine, and still owes me a lot less than the price of a supermarket BSO even after getting two years service out of it to date.



It'll certainly give me the time to get my head around what I really want to do at any rate. I've never stripped and rebuilt a bike before, so I'm learning on the fly. Act in haste, repent at leisure and all that... The one splurge that will definitely happen in short order are tyres - outside of a set of knobblies, I've nothing serviceable on hand.

Though I've only begun the strip down, so plans are a bit fluid depending on any gremlins that may manifest themselves.


----------



## Reynard (17 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> If you mean the freewheel oscilates slightly when you spin the wheel, 'they all do that' to a greater or lesser degree.As for the current set up you can tell Raleigh 'mackled' it a bit by fitting a full size nut to the axle instead of a half thickness cone locknut as is usual, this is a bodge I've used myself to
> 
> 1) get a 126mm wide freewheel type wheel to fit nicely in a bike with 130mm spacing.*
> 2) enable a 7 speed freewheel to fit onto the axle with clearance to the dropout
> ...




Ah, thanks for that. Must get my terminology right.  Sounds like Raleigh had their own equivalent of the BL parts bin... 

Anyways, no, it's not the freewheel that's oscillating. This is with the freewheel removed. When you look at the axle sideways on, the end that goes through the freewheel body wiggles above and below the axis of rotation.

It's not a terribly big wiggle (for the want of a better term) but it *is* there. Which suggests that the axle is bent. And putting two and two together, I wonder if that has something to do with the broken and twisted teeth on the freewheel...


----------



## Illaveago (17 Jul 2020)

Interesting project.
I was just looking at the picture of the wheel in the frame and the axle does look bent.


----------



## raleighnut (17 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Sounds like Raleigh had their own equivalent of the BL parts bin...


The BL parts bin had nothing on Raleigh,I think they invented 'badge engineering', so many of the bikes from the 80s and 90s were virtually identical apart from paint jobs and a better model was often down to fitting 'better' components to the same frame. Don't get me wrong Raleigh bikes had a certain 'feel' to them, secure and 'planted' on the road due to their frame geometry (until they came out with the Chopper) but then the 'bean counters' came in and ruined the biggest bike manufacturer in the world.


----------



## Reynard (17 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> The BL parts bin had nothing on Raleigh,I think they invented 'badge engineering', so many of the bikes from the 80s and 90s were virtually identical apart from paint jobs and a better model was often down to fitting 'better' components to the same frame. Don't get me wrong Raleigh bikes had a certain 'feel' to them, secure and 'planted' on the road due to their frame geometry (until they came out with the Chopper) but then the 'bean counters' came in and ruined the biggest bike manufacturer in the world.



Well, BL started it, if nothing else (I have a Mk2 Mini, so tell me about it...), but it sounds like Raleigh took it to another level.

Anyways, "planted" is definitely how I'd say this bike felt when I took it for a brief spin.


----------



## raleighnut (17 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> I have a Mk2 Mini, so tell me about it


Are they the ones with the bit of string to open the doors or is that the Mk1, I used to work on a very early Mini at my mates garage and that had some weird features like a manual starter switch on the floor near the handbrake which was great until the exhaust touched the exposed terminals.


----------



## Reynard (17 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Are they the ones with the bit of string to open the doors or is that the Mk1, I used to work on a very early Mini at my mates garage and that had some weird features like a manual starter switch on the floor near the handbrake which was great until the exhaust touched the exposed terminals.



That's the Mk1. The early ones were nothing if not idiosyncratic...


----------



## 12boy (17 Jul 2020)

My first car choice was between 2 $600 candidates...A Mini and a 8 year old Jaguar sedan. I went with the Jag and blew the engine in less than a year. It was sold and I saw it years later with a big Chevy V8 still tooling around. Always wondered how long, with my stupidity, it would have taken to trash the Mini. There were not a lot of good mechanics to work on either car in Albuquerque New Mexico in 1964.


----------



## Illaveago (17 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Are they the ones with the bit of string to open the doors or is that the Mk1, I used to work on a very early Mini at my mates garage and that had some weird features like a manual starter switch on the floor near the handbrake which was great until the exhaust touched the exposed terminals.


The mk 2 had internal door hinges, wind up door windows and squarish rear lights . The number plate lamp was above the number plate .


----------



## Reynard (17 Jul 2020)

Not much time to tinker today due to a comedy of errors with a car headlight bulb. Entirely my fault. 

But I did remove the Chang Star alloy brake levers from the Emmelle. Had to sacrifice the grips to do that (a hacksaw job), but I've never liked those grips anyway, so it's no biggie. The levers and mounts are a bit scuffed, but then they would be after 35 years. They are perfectly serviceable though, and *anything* would be better than those ghastly plastic levers...


----------



## Reynard (17 Jul 2020)

Illaveago said:


> The mk 2 had internal door hinges, wind up door windows and squarish rear lights . The number plate lamp was above the number plate .



Nope, not quite... 

Still external hinges and sliding windows, but it did have the large rear light clusters. The Mk3 (1970 onwards) had internal door hinges and wind up windows, but the very last Mk2 cars did have the Mk3 windows and colours.

Oh, and the Mk3 rear light cluster had the white reversing light, whereas the Mk2 doesn't.


----------



## Reynard (18 Jul 2020)

Today's tinkering involved cleaning and servicing the brake levers I took off the Emmelle and the Wellgo flats that were in my box of bits. The levers came up rather nicely, and they'll certainly do the job. Just as an interesting aside, both levers are identical, so in the left housing, the button at the end of the cable fits in the top, and on the right, the cable fits in the bottom. A nod to ease of manufacture and cost-cutting. 

Prior to reading up how to use a crank extractor and taking the cranks off (Monday's task, methinks), I've put a red tag in the left crank and a green tag in the right one. That way I won't make a mistake when re-assembling. 

The axle is definitely bent. I put the wheel in the workmate, stuck a bamboo skewer vertically in a piece of florist's oasis and used the tip of the skewer as a reference point while rotating the axle. The problem is the threaded end on the drive side, which is perhaps 1/16 of an inch out. I'd guess it's rideable for now, but I certainly wouldn't want to trust it in the long term.

That aside, another area of concern is the bottom bracket. It doesn't spin as freely as it should, only rotating a couple of times after giving it a whirl before coming to a stop. Ergo, a bottom bracket removal thingy is next on the shopping list.

The drive train on this bike definitely has its issues. I haven't found anything yet that hasn't had a problem.


----------



## 12boy (18 Jul 2020)

Had a friend who liked to say "never bitch when your wife has some godawful job for you. Use it as an excuse to buy another tool." Bikes are like that.....in fact just the other day I treated myself to some chain pliers as the quick link on my Shimano 10 speed chain was a bugger. When you are done with that bike you will be able to take it all apart and then reassemble it with one hand behind your back and blindfolded. Riding a bike you've refurbished to your specs and that works as you wish is such a good feeling.


----------



## Reynard (18 Jul 2020)

12boy said:


> Riding a bike you've refurbished to your specs and that works as you wish is such a good feeling.



I think that's the motivation behind this. 

Have been hankering after a bike to use when I don't want to take out the other two because it's too mucky. Though admittedly while I haven't been looking terribly hard as it's a luxury, not a necessity, I've struggled to find something off-the-shelf that's in my budget, the right size and the right spec. Covid hasn't made things easier either.

This way is much more fun in the long run, even if it's not going to be straightforward. Plus I enjoy the process of learning new things, whether theoretical or practical - I did spend a decade in academia after all.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (18 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> That aside, another area of concern is the bottom bracket. It doesn't spin as freely as it should, only rotating a couple of times after giving it a whirl before coming to a stop. Ergo, a bottom bracket removal thingy is next on the shopping list.
> 
> The drive train on this bike definitely has its issues. I haven't found anything yet that hasn't had a problem.



I don't possess a BB removal tool and I've stripped out loads of threaded BB's. What I use is a steel drift or big blunt screwdriver for loosening the lockring, and a decent adjustable spanner with accurate parallel jaws for undoing the cups. If I encounter the dimpled type, I use a punch in the holes.
On the non-drive side I first remove the lockring and then try the BB cup to see if it will come out easily. If it won't, I lay the bike on it's side and spray penetrating oil into the threads and leave it like that to soak in for a day or two, reapplying more fluid every few hours if I remember. I've never failed yet although a few have been stubborn. If the drive side is really tight and doesn't want to come out, I clean it out in situ, and regrease it the same way. No point in fighting with it unless the cup is knackered and it has to come out or I'm scrapping the frame and I want the parts for spares.
Regarding the state of yours mechanically, I suspect being a junior size it has probably been well thrashed and jumped by a boy of the sort of age who thinks they are indestructible, so the bike must be too. Been there myself, thrashing 5 speed "racers".


----------



## Reynard (19 Jul 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I don't possess a BB removal tool and I've stripped out loads of threaded BB's. What I use is a steel drift or big blunt screwdriver for loosening the lockring, and a decent adjustable spanner with accurate parallel jaws for undoing the cups. If I encounter the dimpled type, I use a punch in the holes.
> On the non-drive side I first remove the lockring and then try the BB cup to see if it will come out easily. If it won't, I lay the bike on it's side and spray penetrating oil into the threads and leave it like that to soak in for a day or two, reapplying more fluid every few hours if I remember. I've never failed yet although a few have been stubborn. If the drive side is really tight and doesn't want to come out, I clean it out in situ, and regrease it the same way. No point in fighting with it unless the cup is knackered and it has to come out or I'm scrapping the frame and I want the parts for spares.
> Regarding the state of yours mechanically, I suspect being a junior size it has probably been well thrashed and jumped by a boy of the sort of age who thinks they are indestructible, so the bike must be too. Been there myself, thrashing 5 speed "racers".



Ah, but what you have that I don't is years of experience, nous and a spanner that's big enough. 

But this is precisely what puzzles me about the bike. Other than a few scrapes plus one bigger area of paint loss on the chainstays, the rest of the paintwork is almost pristine, the shifters, grips and brake levers aren't scuffed, the bars turn smoothly, the original saddle was in good order and the wheel rims, hubs and spokes were ok too. If the bike had been thrashed and trashed, I'd have expected to see it in far worse condition overall - especially the plastic parts.

Looking at the pattern of damage (strength of materials and destructive testing is my background btw), I'm coming to the conclusion that the chain must have got jammed, and that considerable force was used in order to free it. Crashing wouldn't cause that kind of torsional deformation to the sprocket teeth. And if the axle is bent, the same could potentially be true of the BB spindle if someone applied the leverage to free the chain via the pedals.

Time will tell with the latter. I haven't got that far with it yet...


----------



## 12boy (19 Jul 2020)

A $25 Shimano BB will give you many, many miles of trouble free service. How many is many, many? My Steamroller has had the same one for at least 30 k miles and I've yet to have a problem with it. There are a lot of mid or even lower tier parts that may weigh a gram or two more than ones costing 10 times as much and will last as long, or in some cases much longer. Steel chainrings are very tough, for example, and so are steel handle bars. You may find the bike you plan to ride to spare the "better" bikes may be your favorite.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (19 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> But this is precisely what puzzles me about the bike. Other than a few scrapes plus one bigger area of paint loss on the chainstays, the rest of the paintwork is almost pristine



In my experience, Nottingham built Raleighs from at least the late 1980's onwards, tended to have extremely tough and durable paint finishes that seem to survive well even on hard-used bikes. I believe they went over to powder coat that was stoved to cure it and the resulting finish, even on the low end models, tended to be better than most other makers were producing at the time. I don't own one less than 20 years old, and I've been pleasantly surprised on my secondhand purchases, how well the paint has stood up and how it has retained it's colour and not faded. I picked up a very cheap early 90's Reynolds framed Dawes as a donor/project last year and that is covered with rust spots and really faded. Huge difference in finish durability from bikes around the same age.


----------



## Reynard (21 Jul 2020)

The cranks are proving to be hellaciously stubborn. And they're making all the engineering theory about interference fits that I learnt 25-ish years ago pogo around in my head. Anyways, after copious applications of WD40 and some attention with both a crank extractor and a leather upholstery mallet, I have managed to shift them a little - am having a bit more luck with the drive side than the non-drive. Likely they'll take another few attempts to get them off if the pedals were anything to go by.

Now that I've managed to shift the drive side crank, I can see that there is some damage to the chain ring where it fits onto the spindle, and I'm not entirely convinced that the spindle itself is straight. When I turn the cranks slowly, there's something that "catches" at the same point on each rotation. I'll only find out what the issue is when I take the bottom bracket out.

Unfortunately my LBS doesn't have the right BB tool in stock, so I will need to find it elsewhere. Though they said they'd be more than happy to remove the BB for me if I can't get it out.

On a slightly less frustrating note, the brake calipers came off without any dramas, though I've left the cables in place until I decide how to proceed there. The rear cable is internally routed, and I want to use the old cable to help route the new one through the frame - there's no point tackling that until I decide whether to swing for v-brakes or refurbish and reuse the old calipers. I'll take some photos and measurements of the front and rear mounts, and will poll for opinions on what the CC experts think.


----------



## 12boy (21 Jul 2020)

I've no personal experience with internal cabling but from what I've heard your decision to use the old to route the new was very wise. Pretty soon she will be good to go. A new BB will be sweet.


----------



## DRM (21 Jul 2020)

What I did was to thread the new inner through the old outer, then remove the old outer and fit the new outer over the new inner, worked a treat.
you are absolutely right to leave the cables in place for the time being


----------



## Reynard (21 Jul 2020)

DRM said:


> What I did was to thread the new inner through the old outer, then remove the old outer and fit the new outer over the new inner, worked a treat.
> you are absolutely right to leave the cables in place for the time being



That's pretty well much what I was intending to do. And then use the old outer as a template to cut the new to size. All the other cables are external, so a whole lot easier to sort.

I've been spending a fair bit of time reading up in CC's maintenance & mechanics section.


----------



## Reynard (22 Jul 2020)

Well, the cranks have come off at last. 

And now that I've got them off and had a closer look, the evidence is stacking up that the bike's drive train problems seem to have been caused, at least in part, by the forcible freeing of a jammed chain. The gouges on the inner chain ring can't have been caused by anything else, I don't think.

The cranks are fine bar the odd scuff. Chainrings are a little worn but not massively so. They weren't too gunky either, and the superficial rust has been mostly taken care of with some Barkeep's Help. Have given them a light coating of oil after. Am not doing much more to the crankset as this will likely be replaced at some point, but it's good to go back on. The only real casualty at this stage was the plastic guard on the outside of the big ring - it simply disintegrated when I removed the screws holding it in place.

Next step is tackling the very stiff and grumbly bottom bracket.

The lockring was only on finger tight, as I discovered when wiping away the oil and goo from the spindle - it's one of those that has three equidistant slots btw. I haven't removed it yet, as I don't want anything falling off (or out) that shouldn't. And I still need to read up on how to open / remove / service a square taper BB.

But given how hard the spindle is to turn, I'm fully expecting some kind of metallic carnage inside.

P.S. The fact that the lockring was loose was serendipity, as my LBS didn't have the right tool to undo it.


----------



## raleighnut (23 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> P.S. The fact that the lockring was loose was serendipity, as my LBS didn't have the right tool to undo it.


The right tools are a small brass 'Drift'* and a hammer. 

* some use a chisel/screwdriver but that's a bodge too far for me however I do own a 6" length of 1/4 " brass bar (150mm x 7mm square for the youths and foreigners who use the metric system)


----------



## DRM (23 Jul 2020)

What Raleighnut says, the bb on mine had a raised oblong section in the Centre that a large adjustable spanner fitted, one thing to bear in mind is when you remove the bb axle mark one side so you know which way round it fits as it may not be symmetrical, the bearings on mine were £3.99 from Halfords and came with a little tube of lithium grease, they were the cage type rather than loose bearings


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

I feel like a right doofus now thanks to you two! 

But for the future, I should have various drifts and punches in amongst various boxes of upholstery tools, and hammers and mallets I have aplenty. 

I've actually already marked the drive side of the spindle with a "D" in sparkly peach-coloured nail polish, so I know which end it which, as it's decidedly NOT symmetrical. 

And I've checked - got a raised oblong as well, have a spanner that fits it, and more importantly, it's not seized.  Plus, if spares are needed (temporarily - I live right out in the boonies here) my old Emmelle has the same BB which I can cannibalize or even potentially swap over.


----------



## DRM (23 Jul 2020)

1st rule of engineering..... if in doubt give it a clout


----------



## raleighnut (23 Jul 2020)

As long as there is no wear/pitting on the part of the shaft the bearing run on (it's only a very thin band) then a set of these at a couple of quid should sort it,


https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8Q8qX...ZW5fR0I&rlid=7cf7f1dec0ec196cd4efaec778202400

Most bikes from the last century (pre Y2K) had shafts with proper Case Hardening on quality steel unlike the square taper shafts on cheap bikes now that seem to be made of 'pot metal'. Yours could be either but if it is still good then whack a set of bearings in with plenty of grease (lots) and then adjust them (hours of fun til you get em just right) and they'll last years.


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

Anyways, success! 

Tipped the bike on its side so I could work over a plastic tray, just in case the bearings were loose rather than caged. But no, the bearings were caged, and it wasn't the carnage I was expecting.

Just a distinct lack of grease.

And a load of dark grit. Water had got in there at some point, and the threads on the frame and cup were rather rusty. So it was just a case of clean everything rather thoroughly, add lashings of fresh grease and reassemble.

I trial fitted the crankset back on, and everything spins really nicely now. Feels weirdly satisfying to have sorted that. 

Added bonus was that the area of what I thought was paint loss on one of the chainstays was in fact some weird foam / glue type stuff, which came off by rubbing with an oily rag. So one less area of frame to have to prep for paint.


----------



## raleighnut (23 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> As long as there is no wear/pitting on the part of the shaft the bearing run on (it's only a very thin band) then a set of these at a couple of quid should sort it,
> 
> 
> https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8Q8qX...ZW5fR0I&rlid=7cf7f1dec0ec196cd4efaec778202400
> ...


Gawd that's a long linky


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> As long as there is no wear/pitting on the part of the shaft the bearing run on (it's only a very thin band) then a set of these at a couple of quid should sort it,
> 
> 
> https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8Q8qX...ZW5fR0I&rlid=7cf7f1dec0ec196cd4efaec778202400
> ...



There wasn't any discernible pitting on anything - it all cleaned up really well, even the rust. And that shaft was heavy and undamaged, so unlikely to be pot metal. Will probably get some new bearings at some stage, but this will do for now.

And that 500g tube of heavy duty grease is definitely coming in handy.


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

DRM said:


> 1st rule of engineering..... if in doubt give it a clout



I thought it was...

If it moves and it shouldn't, then duck tape, if it doesn't move and it should, then WD40 

Mind, I really do like bashing stuff. Preferably with an Instron.  Did you know that when you break sandwich composites, it sounds like a gun going off? I used to frighten the bejeesus out of my research colleagues by not telling them.  No wonder no one liked to book lab time at the same time as me...


----------



## 12boy (23 Jul 2020)

You might want to put some frame saver in the frame. There are some that leave a polymer coating that are good for those places you can get into, and you can use wd40, Boeshield, boiled linseed oil and other more liquid products in places like chainstays. Squirt some in and rotate the frame in different directions to get it to coat it all. Once dry this will create a rust barrier. I'd particularly treat the rusty BB innards. Just sayin....


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

12boy said:


> You might want to put some frame saver in the frame. There are some that leave a polymer coating that are good for those places you can get into, and you can use wd40, Boeshield, boiled linseed oil and other more liquid products in places like chainstays. Squirt some in and rotate the frame in different directions to get it to coat it all. Once dry this will create a rust barrier. I'd particularly treat the rusty BB innards. Just sayin....



I'm doing this as I go along anyway (with WD 40) as it's good practice and it makes things easier further down the line. Just like adding a smear of grease to all threads on reassembly. 

As best I can see, the inside of the frame isn't bare metal. Looks like it's got some kind of primer / undercoat on the inside of the tubes. The rust was on the exposed threads, but nothing a good clean and grease couldn't solve.


----------



## DRM (23 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> I thought it was...
> 
> If it moves and it shouldn't, then duck tape, if it doesn't move and it should, then WD40
> 
> Mind, I really do like bashing stuff. Preferably with an Instron.  Did you know that when you break sandwich composites, it sounds like a gun going off? I used to frighten the bejeesus out of my research colleagues by not telling them.  No wonder no one liked to book lab time at the same time as me...


So do small electrolytic capacitors when hidden inside a 13amp plug connected between the live & neutral, Elf n safety have put an end to jolly japes such as this, 2nd rule of engineering... with regard to pivot points & fitting axle pins, never stick your finger in where you wouldn't put your, erm. man bits


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

DRM said:


> So do small electrolytic capacitors when hidden inside a 13amp plug connected between the live & neutral, Elf n safety have put an end to jolly japes such as this, 2nd rule of engineering... with regard to pivot points & fitting axle pins, never stick your finger in where you wouldn't put your, erm. man bits



Given how capacitors work, I can quite believe that. 

As for the latter, given that I am not in possession of those particular items of anatomy, I shall take your word for it and just stick to watching where I put my digits.


----------



## DRM (23 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Given how capacitors work, I can quite believe that.
> 
> As for the latter, given that I am not in possession of those particular items of anatomy, I shall take your word for it and just stick to watching where I put my digits.


Ah but regardless of gender, it acts as a good reminder that trapping your finger damn well hurts, never mind slicing it off if something slips!!!


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2020)

DRM said:


> Ah but regardless of gender, it acts as a good reminder that trapping your finger damn well hurts, never mind slicing it off if something slips!!!



Of course. And remembering that safety precautions are there for a damn good reason. 

Although, believe it or not, there are people whose job it is to work out all the ways someone can get a Darwin Award for even things like basic tools and appliances so that warnings can be put on packaging etc. Because people *will* try stuff.


----------



## 12boy (24 Jul 2020)

Back in the day bikes had a little washer that hooked into the forks so someone like me who forgot to tighten axle nuts didn't have a Discouraging Experience that generated a hefty lawsuit. Then those were discontinued in favor of a liitle lip on the end of fork which required loosening the QR or axle nut another 1/4 inch or so. We call those "lawyers lips" around these parts.....


----------



## Reynard (24 Jul 2020)

Managed to remove the grips from the bars without trashing them. One slid off pretty easily, while the other needed a bit of easing with the help of a flat screwdriver. They are still eminently serviceable, so will eventually go back on while I decide whether to swing for Ergon grips or simply go for bar ends. The plastic end plugs are rather chewed, so those will be replaced.

Shifters and brake levers slid off the bars without dramas after loosening some allen bolts. I've left everything attached to the cables for now, and those that go on the left have been tied with a red zip tie and those that go on the right with a green one.

The bars are a bit battered, with a few gouges that go well into the metal where things were perhaps over-tightened. I've cleaned all the dirt and goo off them and sanded the rough bits down. Again, they'll go back on for now while I decide how to tweak the cockpit, but are a good candidate for being replaced, if only because they'll look manky on a nice clean bike.

The bolt for the stem is a tad stuck. I don't think it's seized - just like a lot of the things on this bike, it's likely not been touched for a couple of decades, so it will probably just want plenty of WD40 and a bit of time. The rust on the stem is superficial, so once I've managed to remove it, a good clean and maybe a coat of that anti-rust stuff that turns black when it's dry should sort that out.

What sort of stem should I be expecting @raleighnut @SkipdiverJohn - a quill stem of some kind?

Seatpost came out with no dramas either. I knew it was OK as I had it out the other day to get the original saddle and clamp off. It has a spacer collar thingy (what's the correct term for that?) around 2 inches in height that fits between the post and the frame. Like the bars, the post is rather tatty, so it will go at some point, but again, I will put it back for now when I reassemble the bike. It's an inline post, but when I rode it previous week, I had the saddle as far back as it would go and it wasn't quite right, so a new post with a layback clamp will likely be what's needed.

As I couldn't do the stem and headset, the time set aside for that was spent peeling off the eye watering decals instead. They weren't in that great a shape anyway, torn and scuffed etc and actually disintegrated into small pieces as I was pulling them off. I've only left the ones on the seat tube as they're pretty discreet and the sticker from the bike shop that's on the down tube. I may change my mind about that last one, as it's rather knackered as well.

To be honest, even with the glue residue still in situ, the frame looks SO much nicer with all the decals gone, much less childish and more like a proper bike. That shade of light cadmium red is actually really rather fetching.

And with all the bits nearly off it, the frame is surprisingly light, for all that it is steel. And yes, the seat tube is also coated with that primer stuff that was also inside the BB shell.


----------



## DRM (24 Jul 2020)

If the stem bolt wont release the quill stem, a sharp tap with a drift & a hammer in the centre of the allen head bolt should free off the wedge, allowing you to remove it, I've also pulled the stickers off mine & it looks so much better without the scuffed, hideous 90's design.
Measure the diameter of the seat post & the stem as I think they may be an oddball size, I'm sure others can advise more accurately

View: https://youtu.be/yM90mfrjkUA
Also spray some WD40 onto the sticker glue and a rag, the glue residue will come off quite easily.


----------



## Reynard (24 Jul 2020)

DRM said:


> If the stem bolt wont release the quill stem, a sharp tap with a drift & a hammer in the centre of the allen head bolt should free off the wedge, allowing you to remove it, I've also pulled the stickers off mine & it looks so much better without the scuffed, hideous 90's design.
> Measure the diameter of the seat post & the stem as I think they may be an oddball size, I'm sure others can advise more accurately
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/yM90mfrjkUA
> Also spray some WD40 onto the sticker glue and a rag, the glue residue will come off quite easily.




Thanks for the tip for releasing the stem, I'll try that in the morning. 

Count yourself lucky, the stickers on adult Raleighs of similar vintage are pretty tame in comparison.  I had large amounts of dayglo orange and neon green mixed with navy blue. On a bright red frame. Eugh!!!


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (24 Jul 2020)

The Park Tool video is very instructional, although I prefer the ones done by the severe bloke with the moustache. He doesn't look like he would stand for any nonsense from anyone!. I reckon they must have lifted that background soundtrack off a 70's porn flick though! 
When shifting stuck stems I prefer to whack the stem itself rather than just the bolt. The method shown by the Park Tool bloke will drive the expander out, but it won't necessarily shock the quill loose if it's gummed up with muck or corrosion. What I tend to do is undo the headset locknut so I can lift it out of the way, then spray penetrating fluid down the gap between the steerer tube and the stem. If time permits, I'll leave it to soak for a day or two. When applying percussive force I use a large rubber mallet directly, or a steel hammer with a piece of hard wood or scrap metal interposed to prevent the stem being marked. Some MTB stems can be very stubborn to dismantle if the bike has been immersed in wet mud and left to dry like that. I had a real fight with one that lasted a few weeks of sprayings and bashings before I beat it into submission.
Oh, another thing, it's much more effective to place the frame on the ground with the fork ends and BB resting on a hard surface, as you can really drive some impact into the stem to shock it loose that way. Bike workstands tend to be a bit wobbly and reduce the effectiveness of the hammer blows.


----------



## 12boy (25 Jul 2020)

Never use force....get a bigger hammer. Great progress. Love to see the frame stickerless. Looks quillish to me. There are pseudo Ergons for much less, but the Ergons are nice , for sure.


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2020)

12boy said:


> Never use force....get a bigger hammer. Great progress. Love to see the frame stickerless. Looks quillish to me. There are pseudo Ergons for much less, but the Ergons are nice , for sure.



I'll take some photos tomorrow. Well, later today, but I haven't gone to bed yet. 

Ergon GP2 grips came fitted to the hybrid I bought S/H from a forum member last year. I wasn't sure about them at first, but they've really grown on me.


----------



## raleighnut (25 Jul 2020)

I'd never hit the stem with the forks on the ground, I'd do it with the front wheel in, my method would be to undo the centre allen bolt a few turns then whack it with a copper/hide mallet, leaving the front wheel in means you can grip it between your legs whilst you wiggle the stem loose.

Oh and @DRM is right, the stem may be a funny Raleigh size.


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2020)

Erm, chaps... It's the allen bolt that's stuck.


----------



## 12boy (25 Jul 2020)

Do you mean the bolt won't turn or the stem is stuck? If the latter, loosening the bolt then wacking it will in turn loosen the wedge the bolt screws into. Those wedges are cast iron, usually, and can rust so as to stick in the steerer tube. In a pinch I've turned the bike upside down and sprayed WD40 up the steerer tube so as to loosen the rust.


----------



## raleighnut (25 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Erm, chaps... It's the allen bolt that's stuck.


If it won't turn then WD40, Duck Oil or similar.


----------



## Badger_Boom (25 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> The BL parts bin had nothing on Raleigh,I think they invented 'badge engineering', so many of the bikes from the 80s and 90s were virtually identical apart from paint jobs and a better model was often down to fitting 'better' components to the same frame.


My 80s Phillips Premiere was a Raleigh in all but name.


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2020)

It's the bolt. Have sprayed it with WD40 for the last couple of days but it won't budge.

I *should* have a set of long-handled allen keys in the garage, but can I find them? I've been using my multitool (not ideal, I know), and I simply can't get enough leverage. Will delve into my fencing bag for one of the allen keys that I usually use to tighten the pistol grips on my foils and epees as I think it's the same size.


----------



## Reynard (25 Jul 2020)

Nope, scrub that, it's a 7mm key and I need a 6mm key.

Patience is a virtue, and I've other things I can do while I wait for the WD40 to do its thing.


----------



## Reynard (26 Jul 2020)

As an aside, these are what I have in mind for tyres:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tyres-l...s-hs484-tyre-with-reflex-24-x-175-inch-47507/

There's nowhere near as much choice for a 24" wheel as a 26", and a lot of stuff seems out of stock. From the reviews I've read, they should deal with mud-beslimed and gravel-strewn roads.


----------



## Gunk (26 Jul 2020)

Just stumbled across this thread, I can’t believe I missed it, great work @Reynard we need more pictures though. 

Just one tiny bit of advice, when you put the chainset back on, put a smear of copper grease on the shaft. Also I copper grease the fixed cup thread (as they’re always a pig to remove) and assemble the adjustable cup and lock ring dry, as ideally you don’t want it moving.


----------



## 12boy (26 Jul 2020)

Did a quick google...Schwalbe Big Apples come in 24"". I like Schwalbe Marathons ok for my Brompton although they are heavy and the sidewalls are stiffer than the hubs of hell. Another tire I've heard praised are Tioga Power Blocks although they may not be available there. I really like tires with supple sidewalls.


----------



## Nigelnightmare (26 Jul 2020)

DRM said:


> 1st rule of engineering..... if in doubt give it a clout



I thought it was "If it don't fit FORCE IT".


----------



## Reynard (26 Jul 2020)

Stem bolt is still stuck. Must source a long-handled 6mm allen key. Am thinking I could stick an old seatpost on the end of the key, fit the bars back on and use the combined leverage. I have a scissor jack lurking somewhere that I could potentially use to apply a steady pressure without rupturing myself. Though if I can't shift it after that, I may admit defeat and take it to my LBS.

Anyways, I've removed the glue residue and other muck from the frame. There is still the odd bit here and there, but I I still need to go over the frame with some hot soapy water anyway before touching up the chips in the paint with Humbrol. The paint on the drive side chainstay is scuffed but intact, though what I'll do with that is just stick some helicopter tape on it. I'm leaving the front mech in situ (I have cleaned it though) as it works perfectly fine, and it will save me figuring out how to align it later. I'm actually rather pleased as to how the frame has come out.







As mentioned the other day, I took some pics of the forks and dropouts etc.






Front forks & brake mounts. Fitting v-brakes sounds like a good idea, but not sure whether mini-v will work or do I need to go for something else. Also, with a view to getting a new wheelset, I'm wondering whether this fork geometry will allow for QR skewers - their profile is nothing like my other bikes that have QR... 






Rear triangle from above. I'm wondering whether that left rear dropout isn't bent. Or is it just the angle of the shot, as it's not quite vertical? I've had a look and there's no damage to the paint that I can see. The tentative plan is to fit new wheels with a 135mm axle so I can go cassette rather than freewheel. These dropouts measure at 130mm OLN on the nose, so any "bendage" might be straightened by doing that.

Today's other job was cleaning the rear mech. It was dirty, but perfectly serviceable. Did take the very gummed-up jockey wheels out to clean, but I'm not confident enough to take the RD completely apart, to the rest was done as it was. Fortunately I have small hands, so I can get my fingers into tighter spaces than most. Again, there were some deep scratches on the back, adding to the evidence that the chain had come off, got jammed and been freed forcibly.

The front shifters are SRAM MRX 200-50. They're very plasticky and I can't see any reasonable way of taking them apart to fit new cables without completely trashing them. The cable for the RD really has seen better days and desperately wants changing - the end is badly frayed and it's got an almighty big kink in it about halfway down the downtube. You don't put a crimp like that in steel cable without using a fair bit of force... So it's looking like new cables = new shifters.

The short term plan with this is to service the bike, reassemble it and then ride it for a while, so that I can see exactly what's needed.

Oh, and a gratuitous shot of the headbadge...


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jul 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I'd never hit the stem with the forks on the ground, I'd do it with the front wheel in, my method would be to undo the centre allen bolt a few turns then whack it with a copper/hide mallet, leaving the front wheel in means you can grip it between your legs whilst you wiggle the stem loose.



It depends how brutal you need to get with the hammer. An inflated tyre reduces the effectiveness of the blows, and a flat or removed tyre means the edges of the rim take the brunt of the impact. Agree completely what a wheel between the legs is the best way to wiggle something loose, but if it's proper stuck you've still got to break the seal before the wiggling will achieve anything.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> I *should* have a set of long-handled allen keys in the garage, but can I find them? I've been using my multitool (not ideal, I know), and I simply can't get enough leverage.



I usually use a suitably sized ring spanner slipped over allen keys when I need more leverage. If I need to stop a fork turning, I'll jam a length of 4 x 2 in between the fork blades up at the crown end and wedge it against the downtube or between my legs. If I need to get really brutal I'll fit a wheel axle or a bit of studding and nuts and washers across the fork dropouts to try to stop anything twisting out of alignment, but I'm probably a bit more of a brute force merchant than you......


----------



## Reynard (26 Jul 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I usually use a suitably sized ring spanner slipped over allen keys when I need more leverage. If I need to stop a fork turning, I'll jam a length of 4 x 2 in between the fork blades up at the crown end and wedge it against the downtube or between my legs. If I need to get really brutal I'll fit a wheel axle or a bit of studding and nuts and washers across the fork dropouts to try to stop anything twisting out of alignment, but I'm probably a bit more of a brute force merchant than you......



Well, I'm 4ft 11 and 8 1/2 stone, so yeah, very likely you can apply a fair bit more welly to things than I can.  If only my arms were longer, but then I'd end up looking like the Librarian from the Unseen University... 

Screwfix have one of these https://www.screwfix.com/p/teng-tools-metric-t-handle-hex-key-6mm-x-150mm/8623x which hopefully should do the trick...


----------



## fossyant (26 Jul 2020)

Looking great now the stickers are off. Are you going with plain Raleigh stickers at any point ?


----------



## Reynard (26 Jul 2020)

fossyant said:


> Looking great now the stickers are off. Are you going with plain Raleigh stickers at any point ?



Actually, I'm rather tempted to leave it the way it is. I just really like the colour.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jul 2020)

I prefer ordinary long allen keys to the handle types. I got some very decent ones recently from Lidl in one of their cycling accessories promotions, I think the set was £6. That doesn't help you right now, but the next time they have a promo on, it's worth grabbing some. I haven't managed to permanently bend any so far, which suggests they are good quality vanadium steel.


----------



## Reynard (26 Jul 2020)

Heh, well I do have a set somewhere, but for the life of me, I just can't find them! Now the magic trick is this - if I buy another complete set, then the other ones will suddenly appear right in front of my nose. 

I've been relying on my multitool. Fine for most things, but no good for anything that's royally stuck.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (26 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Heh, well I do have a set somewhere, but for the life of me, I just can't find them! Now the magic trick is this - if I buy another complete set, then the other ones will suddenly appear right in front of my nose.



That's the reason I've got half a dozen stanley knives and steel tape measures!


----------



## 12boy (27 Jul 2020)

I think that frame looks great......good job on that. Cork grips and a blond Brooks would go very well with gumwalls tires, too. For someone who says they aren't very skilled you are doing very well. Those minitools are ok for adjustments but nothing beats a proper tool. Using a bit of pipe or a spanner is like having a breaker bar. After loosening the bolt I'll bet the wedge will require a little force as well. Still, the results will be worth it.


----------



## Reynard (27 Jul 2020)

Slight spanner in the works this morning...

I'd hoped to scrounge the 5-speed freewheel off the Emmelle and use it temporarily while I decided where to go with the drivetrain upgrades, as it's got the same sprockets as the one I'd taken off the Raleigh. That was a fine theory until I tried to remove it - the standard freewheel removal tool is too wide by several mm, so there's no way I'm getting that off with what I've got to hand.

I can't just simply swap the wheel over as the rear axle on the Emmelle is 10mm narrower.

Some thinking / research time required.


----------



## Reynard (27 Jul 2020)

12boy said:


> I think that frame looks great......good job on that. Cork grips and a blond Brooks would go very well with gumwalls tires, too. For someone who says they aren't very skilled you are doing very well. Those minitools are ok for adjustments but nothing beats a proper tool. Using a bit of pipe or a spanner is like having a breaker bar. After loosening the bolt I'll bet the wedge will require a little force as well. Still, the results will be worth it.



I don't have a Brooks bum! I'm a Charge Ladle girl. 

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.


----------



## 12boy (27 Jul 2020)

I guess I don't have a Brooks bum, although I am a bum and use narrow leather saddles from Velo Orange those were sold under various names, maybe actually made by Gyre. Have 5 identical saddles for my five favorite bikes. Do like to match grips/bar tape with saddle although there is not a gumwall in sight. Do you have a bike coop in your 'hood wherein used cheap bike parts can be scored? When I drive the 300 miles to Denver Co to see my sons I have a favorite I will visit if I am allowed.


----------



## Reynard (27 Jul 2020)

There is a bike co-op type place in the next village along, but whenever I've been in there, they've not been terribly... cooperative... And for similar prices on consumables and tools, I prefer to take my trade to the LBS in town instead.

Keeping things "period" isn't something I'm after, not on a bike that was never anything fancy in its day. I've dated it to 1998 btw if I've got the frame number correct. So no gumwall tyres (I don't actually like them), and just keeping everything plain black / alloy. I have a black Selle SMP in my box of bits which I plan on using.

My road bike has a matching saddle and bar tape (white, I know, I know...) and my hybrid has everything in black. So guilty as charged there, m'lud...


----------



## Reynard (27 Jul 2020)

A bunch of fails today. Was bound to happen at some stage, I thought this was going far too well...

The enamel paint I bought last week is the wrong colour (it's closer to alizarin crimson than to light cadmium red regardless of what it says on the label), and the freewheel remover tool I have isn't the right one to take the freewheel off the donor bike. Irritating, as it's apparently a straight swap otherwise.

The right tool costs as much as a new freewheel, near enough.

Is it even worth bothering? It's not a tool I'm ever likely to need again. And is it worth getting a replacement freewheel if I was going to upgrade the wheelset and drivetrain anyway? Aaaargh!!!

Might slope off to the "Wanted" section to see if anyone has a spare 14-28 5-speed Shimano freewheel knocking around...


----------



## DCBassman (28 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Is it even worth bothering? It's not a tool I'm ever likely to need again. And is it worth getting a replacement freewheel if I was going to upgrade the wheelset and drivetrain anyway? Aaaargh!!!


No. Just bite the bullet and get a new freehub wheel and cassette and be done with it. In doing two rigid 26" MTBs, this saved hours of faffing. More choice with gearing, too.
Edit: as well as future-proofing as far as spares go.


----------



## 12boy (28 Jul 2020)

Freehubs are nice because it's so easy to change gearing. The tools to crack the cluster aren' t expensive. Having said that, if there was a way to replace the axle and sprockets on the hub you already have it would be nice to have an extra wheel.


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> No. Just bite the bullet and get a new freehub wheel and cassette and be done with it. In doing two rigid 26" MTBs, this saved hours of faffing. More choice with gearing, too.
> Edit: as well as future-proofing as far as spares go.



The more I think about it, the more this sounds like the way forward. Especially when I make a list of what's not up to scratch and needs to be changed: freewheel is knackered, rear axle is bent, chainrings too small, shifters are unitary construction and can't be serviced, those ghastly plastic brake levers...

The things that are bugging me are this:

1) Will those front forks take a QR? The wheelset I've got my eye on is fitted for QR. Which I like the idea of anyway.

2) What size cassette can I fit without running into space issues?

3) How many sprockets can the current RD cope with? It's in good working order so would be a shame to bin it.

4) I'm hoping the FD should be ok, as I'd be staying with a triple, just one with a couple more teeth on the big ring.


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2020)

Oh yeah, and the stem bolt still isn't playing ball, but should get my mitts on a 6mm allen key tomorrow.


----------



## DCBassman (28 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> What size cassette can I fit without running into space issues?


This depends on what space you're referring to. You are quite likely to have to bend it to 135mm, but if that's no biggie, then the wheel is likely to be capable of 7/8/9 speed, so the world is your tasty mollusc. But 7-speed is likely to be the least number. I still have those 8-spd shifters which will do V and other brake types...

Careful choice of 8-speed cassette would give you a really nicely spaced 12-30 or up to 34 if the RD can handle it, but 30 should be fine, I would have thought...


----------



## Reynard (28 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> This depends on what space you're referring to. You are quite likely to have to bend it to 135mm, but if that's no biggie, then the wheel is likely to be capable of 7/8/9 speed, so the world is your tasty mollusc. But 7-speed is likely to be the least number. I still have those 8-spd shifters which will do V and other brake types...
> 
> Careful choice of 8-speed cassette would give you a really nicely spaced 12-30 or up to 34 if the RD can handle it, but 30 should be fine, I would have thought...



The rear dropouts are 130mm, so bending them to get a new wheel in isn't an issue, I don't think. I was thinking more about chain fouling, what with it being such a small frame.

I had been thinking of an 11-28 7-speed matched to a 44-32-22 triple, which would give me a similar range to the hybrid, but if an 8-speed cassette will fit, then there won't be such big gaps. It's still at the planning stage - that's why I was trying to get the bike up and running so I would have a better idea of what was really needed.

Those 8-speed shifters do sound nice.  And then I could keep the existing cantis, as there's nothing wrong with them. Other than the fact that they could do with a bit of a clean.

The wheelset I'm after is currently listed as out of stock, which is a bit of a pain. But I think I'll get the wheels and tyres and then just slowly go from there.


----------



## DCBassman (29 Jul 2020)

@Reynard , I remembered, if you do go V-brake, that I also have a set of 3x8 EF28 Acera brake/shifters, which would be nearer to period-correct, ie mid-90s-ish. The 8-speed r/h shifter is NOS, still fitted with a cable inner. The l/h is from the Claud Butler Uracco MTB I did up for my younger (37 next month, yikes!) son. If you stay 7-speed, then I also have the 7-speed r/h shifter from the CB.


----------



## Reynard (29 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> @Reynard , I remembered, if you do go V-brake, that I also have a set of 3x8 EF28 Acera brake/shifters, which would be nearer to period-correct, ie mid-90s-ish. The 8-speed r/h shifter is NOS, still fitted with a cable inner. The l/h is from the Claud Butler Uracco MTB I did up for my younger (37 next month, yikes!) son. If you stay 7-speed, then I also have the 7-speed r/h shifter from the CB.



Mmmm, I'm not terribly worried about period correct, more about finding something that works on the bike and works for me.  Really appreciate the offers & advice etc. 

Going from the Altus shifters on the hybrid to the twist shifters on my rather short test ride was a real culture shock. Not the number of gears, just the actual shifters themselves. They're horrible to use and would be a nightmare in the cold / dark / wet.

N.B. the Altus shifters on the Chartres are separate to the brake levers as opposed to integrated units.


----------



## Reynard (29 Jul 2020)

Well, a 6mm allen key has been acquired.

Actually, I bought a proper set of long-handled vanadium steel keys. So the multitool can go back into the road bike bar bag where it belongs, and hopefully I'll be able to wrestle this stem bolt into submission.

Well, that's the theory, anyway...


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2020)

Theory and practice gelled together really rather nicely. 

The right tool really makes all the difference, and the bolt came undone pretty easily. The stem wasn't stuck either. It came out ok, but it's been put aside for a thorough clean, as it's really dirty.

And the state of the tube, fork, bearings and everything else is a damn good advert for why mudguards are the best thing since sliced bread for keeping that part of the bike in good order. I actually had to resort to taking a small chisel, and a pick along with copious amounts of WD40 (I might buy shares in the stuff!) to shift the solid mixture of old grease, dirt and goodness knows what else. That was truly bleurgh. 

The headset has probably not been touched since the bike was built, but again, like the BB, was in surprisingly good nick. Nothing was damaged or pitted etc, but I will put some new bearings in at some point.

Anyways, everything has been scrubbed clean and reassembled with very generous quantities of grease. All in all, a rather satisfying afternoon's tinkering.


----------



## Gunk (30 Jul 2020)

More photos please!


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2020)

Am looking at getting these guards for the bike btw - I think they'll do rather nicely.

https://www.sks-germany.com/en/products/rowdy-set/


----------



## Gunk (30 Jul 2020)

I've found with plastic mudguards, start with a strong hot soapy water mix to get the mud off, then dry them off and use a rag with WD40 to remove the remaining oil and grease.


----------



## Gunk (30 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Am looking at getting these guards for the bike btw - I think they'll do rather nicely.
> 
> https://www.sks-germany.com/en/products/rowdy-set/



 bit blingy


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2020)

Gunk said:


> More photos please!



Hmm, not much visual change since I last posted pics.  And handling a camera with greasy paws is not a good idea. DAMHIKT


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2020)

Gunk said:


> I've found with plastic mudguards, start with a strong hot soapy water mix to get the mud off, then dry them off and use a rag with WD40 to remove the remaining oil and grease.



The bike didn't have any mudguards, and I don't think it's ever had any, judging by all the crud in the headset.



Gunk said:


> bit blingy



Maybe, but they'll fit.  The e-cheapo set that's on my old 24" wheel MTB don't.


----------



## raleighnut (30 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> Theory and practice gelled together really rather nicely.
> 
> The right tool really makes all the difference, and the bolt came undone pretty easily. The stem wasn't stuck either. It came out ok, but it's been put aside for a thorough clean, as it's really dirty.
> 
> ...


 A good thing to stop stems and seatposts from sticking is 'Petroleum Jelly' not as a lubricant but as a coating, some greases won't stop galvanic corrosion but good ol Vaseline does, likewise when fitting pedals, freewheels and BBs 'Copaslip' is the best product.


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2020)

That's useful to know re the vaseline @raleighnut - thanks for the heads up. 

Next task I think is to strip, clean and rebuild the brake calipers, as I plan on re-using them for now.

Although I will replace the bars. I've had a better look at them, and the circular gouges in the metal are rather deeper than the materials engineer in me is entirely happy with. Any crack or other weakness can propagate rather quickly, and I really don't want to hit a bump or a hole and end up with snapped bars.


----------



## 12boy (30 Jul 2020)

I only use organically grown, non-GMO, locally sourced, organic chicken fat, strained through Egyptian long staple cotton gauze, myself. Actually copper antiseize compound. I'd prefer some SKS fenders, not spendy, light and durable. The ones you referenced don't look right for your bike in my opinion, but it is your bike. Enjoyed hearing how you prevailed over the stem....


----------



## Reynard (30 Jul 2020)

12boy said:


> I only use organically grown, non-GMO, locally sourced, organic chicken fat, strained through Egyptian long staple cotton gauze, myself. Actually copper antiseize compound. I'd prefer some SKS fenders, not spendy, light and durable. The ones you referenced don't look right for your bike in my opinion, but it is your bike. Enjoyed hearing how you prevailed over the stem....



Isn't that a waste of good schmalz? 

Anyway, re the mudguards, it's the same story as with tyres and wheels - there's far less choice for 24" wheeled bikes as there is for their bigger-wheeled counterparts. The only other SKS option for 24" wheels are the long ones for a hybrid / touring bike, which would look silly on a MTB. Again, am still in the "just looking" stage, there's not a great deal I can do now until the wheelset I want becomes available again.

Mind, anything that stops crud going into the headset and transmission, and up my butt and back will be fine though. It'll be my winter bike, so some form of guards are a must.


----------



## DCBassman (31 Jul 2020)

Reynard said:


> It'll be my winter bike, so some form of guards are a must



Well, I'm thinking a 26" set o'they would be just right for the Trek MTB, to replace the crude 30 year old Raleigh Flingers currently fitted!

Edit: rats, no 26" version....


----------



## crossfire (31 Jul 2020)

I put a set of SKS Beavertail XL on the mtb (26"), don`t like mud stripes! Also fitted a set on the hybrid(700) would recommend but they don`t do 24", they are flexible so may fit, and give extra coverage


----------



## Reynard (31 Jul 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Well, I'm thinking a 26" set o'they would be just right for the Trek MTB, to replace the crude 30 year old Raleigh Flingers currently fitted!
> 
> Edit: rats, no 26" version....



Ah, drat... Maybe someone else makes something similar? 



crossfire said:


> I put a set of SKS Beavertail XL on the mtb (26"), don`t like mud stripes! Also fitted a set on the hybrid(700) would recommend but they don`t do 24", they are flexible so may fit, and give extra coverage



The ones I have in my parts box are a cheap no-name version of those. They don't fit, I've tried.  Well, the rear one is the main problem, there's just not enough "bend" in it and that means the mounts are in the wrong place. The downside of such a small frame.  At least a rear guard that fastens onto the seatpost gets around that problem rather nicely.

And at the end of the day, I and my kit are washable.


----------



## Reynard (4 Aug 2020)

Another afternoon's tinkering.

Disassembled the front brake callipers. Gave them a good clean with barkeep's help before tackling some of the more stubborn patches of rust with wet-and-dry prior to wiping everything over with WD40. Cosmetically the brakes are tired, but since they are otherwise undamaged and still perfectly functional, they will do for now.

Reassembled each arm, greased all the threads, fitted new Clarks brake blocks and put the whole shebang back on the bike. All fairly straightforward and no little parts left over and me wondering where the blazes they came from.

But at some stage I will either swing for cantis more in keeping with the new components, or upgrade to v-brakes. It's not a decision I have to make right now as it's one that's filed under "nice to have" as opposed to "essential"

I've also realised I've got to hold my horses on the mudguards until I've got the wheels on and do the cabling, as I need to make sure that there's no fouling. The el-cheapo pair I have may fit, but they may not, and the rear brake cable may have issues, but then it may not. The SKS set I have my eye on have the advantage that the rear guard fits onto the seatpost rather than the frame. I think I'll wait to buy.

Oh, and mum's found a tube of petroleum jelly (aka vaseline), so she's given that to me.


----------



## Gunk (4 Aug 2020)

Where are the piccies?


----------



## Reynard (4 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> Where are the piccies?



Will take pics when I've done the rear as well.


----------



## Reynard (5 Aug 2020)

Oooh, the wheelset I'm after is back in stock! 

https://www.taylor-wheels.com/24-inch-bicycle-wheelset-dynamic-4-shimano-tx500-7-10-schwarz

Any reasons why I *shouldn't* pull the trigger?


----------



## DCBassman (5 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Oooh, the wheelset I'm after is back in stock!
> 
> https://www.taylor-wheels.com/24-inch-bicycle-wheelset-dynamic-4-shimano-tx500-7-10-schwarz
> 
> Any reasons why I *shouldn't* pull the trigger?


Get drastic with that plastic!


----------



## Reynard (5 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Get drastic with that plastic!



Aaaargh, you've given me an attack of the limericks... 

Reynard did something drastic
At a website she flashed some plastic
She bought some new wheels
And remarked to her heels
That she'll be tripping the light fantastic



Well, I will, later... Stuff to go off and do first.


----------



## Reynard (5 Aug 2020)

Will post pics tomorrow, promise...

Anyways, did the rear brake callipers this afternoon. They were more tatty than the front (not surprising, really), but again, it's a cosmetic thing rather than a structural thing. But they've come up reasonably presentable, so right now I'm not too fussed.

The issue with both front and rear is that the lacquer coating has come away in places, and since the callipers are made from pressed steel, rust is (and will be) inevitable. Also re-installed the rear brake cable hanger.

One thing I will need, or rather two, when I eventually get round to doing the cabling, are the doodads that connect the cables to the callipers. Those currently fitted are rusty and pitted beyond salvaging, and on one of them, one of the hooks won't engage because part of it has sheared off.

With things going back on the frame, it's starting to look like a proper bicycle again. I plan on ducking into my LBS on Friday, as well as another place I've found locally that also does bikes, to see what they've got in the way of bars. Budget alloy will do, it doesn't have to be anything fancy.


----------



## raleighnut (5 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Will post pics tomorrow, promise...
> 
> Anyways, did the rear brake callipers this afternoon. They were more tatty than the front (not surprising, really), but again, it's a cosmetic thing rather than a structural thing. But they've come up reasonably presentable, so right now I'm not too fussed.
> 
> ...


If the brakes have 'straddle wires' from one side to the other I'd strongly suggest fitting reflectors on brackets to stop the cable grabbing the tyre if anything breaks unless you're fitting mudguards that go between the tyre and the cable (they'll do the job effectively too)


----------



## raleighnut (5 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Will post pics tomorrow, promise...
> 
> Anyways, did the rear brake callipers this afternoon. They were more tatty than the front (not surprising, really), but again, it's a cosmetic thing rather than a structural thing. But they've come up reasonably presentable, so right now I'm not too fussed.
> 
> ...


These ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/2935766653...g=2386202&algv=DefaultOrganic&brand=Unbranded


----------



## Reynard (5 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> If the brakes have 'straddle wires' from one side to the other I'd strongly suggest fitting reflectors on brackets to stop the cable grabbing the tyre if anything breaks unless you're fitting mudguards that go between the tyre and the cable (they'll do the job effectively too)



Ah, thanks for the heads up. I see what you mean should something go "ping". Actually, I'll be fitting both reflectors (the original ones cleaned up really nicely) and guards.  And now I also know what the wire that goes between one side of the calliper to the other is called. Another school day on Planet CC. 



raleighnut said:


> These ?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/293576665378?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid=1110006&algo=HOMESPLICE.SIM&ao=2&asc=20160908110712&meid=42e90ce340754ff3b9499a5959f37088&pid=100677&rk=5&rkt=30&mehot=none&sd=193057664637&itm=293576665378&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2386202&algv=DefaultOrganic&brand=Unbranded



Them's a bit posher than what is currently fitted, but something of that ilk, yes.


----------



## Reynard (5 Aug 2020)

Well, for better or for worse, wheels have been ordered.


----------



## raleighnut (6 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Ah, thanks for the heads up. I see what you mean should something go "ping". Actually, I'll be fitting both reflectors (the original ones cleaned up really nicely) and guards.  And now I also know what the wire that goes between one side of the calliper to the other is called. Another school day on Planet CC.
> 
> 
> 
> Them's a bit posher than what is currently fitted, but something of that ilk, yes.


I use even posher aluminium ones on my centrepull brakes.


----------



## Reynard (6 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I use even posher aluminium ones on my centrepull brakes.



Ooooer 

Anyways, my LBS should have some in stock, I'm sure. They have a whole wall fitted with loads of little drawers, each full of different little doodads. Which reminds, I also need a pair of bar end plugs and some of those caps that you squish onto the end of cables to stop them from fraying...


----------



## raleighnut (6 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> those caps that you squish onto the end of cables to stop them from fraying...


Strangely called 'Antifray caps' or just antifrays.


----------



## Reynard (7 Aug 2020)

Anyways, as promised, a couple of pics. 







As you can see, the front brake callipers cleaned up nicely, other than the retaining bolt for the straddle cable. And no, your eyes are not deceiving you, the cable for the rear derailleur HAS got that almighty kink in it. And it stays that way, even under tension. Someone's obviously had a good yank of that at some point - probably in the effort to free the chain. That cable is very frayed where it comes out of the outer and into the RD as well.






And the rear brakes and cable hanger. The rears were more tatty than the fronts, and it shows. But again, perfectly functional. Although admittedly they are rather fugly. I did see some lovely black and red cantis for sale, but at £94 for one set, I think not! 

Today's work on the project involved buying a set of tyres. I did go for the Schwalbe Road Cruiser Plus in the end - at £10.99 each they were better than half price at CRC, so that frees up a good chunk of the budget to spend elsewhere.

Plus the old bars have been measured. They're 560mm width and 25.4mm diameter. Lots of places online seem out of stock or only have the 31.5-ish mm diameter. I may as well take the bars to my LBS and say "have you got something like this in?"

So far, I've spent...

Bike £25
Brake cables (inner & outer) £4
Brake blocks £10
Inner tube £5
Wheelset £57
Tyres £22

So that's £123 so far on the project, and @All uphill 's £200 spend on that touring bike looks like where I'm going to be at in terms of the actual build. That's still *well* below half the cost of buying a new bike with the spec I want, although I've had to give up the idea of suspension forks and disc brakes. The former is no great loss, as to be fair, a rigid steel bike with decent tyres will be lighter and do an equally good job for the riding I have in mind. And there's far less to worry about on the maintenance front.

How I spend the rest of the budget depends on where I go with the crankset once I've decided the number of teeth to go for. I could go cheap and get a unitary construction triple for around £15, or spend a chunk more and get one that comes apart. I'd prefer the latter route, but that might well depend on a) what I decide on in terms of teeth, b) what's available and c) can I find a used one in decent nick? Maybe a call in CC's wanted section will be worth trying...

I've also spent £28 on tools (crank puller, freewheel remover, allen keys), but to be fair, good tools never go to waste, and are always a sound investment. I'm of the mind to get tools as and when I need them, rather than splurge on a kit and end up with a bunch of stuff I'll never use...


----------



## raleighnut (7 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Anyways, as promised, a couple of pics.
> 
> View attachment 540190
> 
> ...


Depending on how many gears you go for on the back and which shifters you then use I have a pair of all aluminium 'shorty' MTB brake levers with the 'span adjuster' allen screws in my shed. They're not brilliant but they're OK and the aluminium cable adjusters are fine (no stripped threads)


----------



## Reynard (7 Aug 2020)

Thanks xxx  @DCBassman has also very kindly offered a few bits. You guys are just the best.  But let me see where I decide to go with regards to gearing. I need some thinking time first before taking the plunge.

Although I'm leaning towards 8 speed as it seems to offer the best all round options for the various parts and pieces.


----------



## raleighnut (7 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Thanks xxx  @DCBassman has also very kindly offered a few bits. You guys are just the best.  But let me see where I decide to go with regards to gearing. I need some thinking time first before taking the plunge.
> 
> Although I'm leaning towards 8 speed as it seems to offer the best all round options for the various parts and pieces.


I came across them whilst searching for the Steel brake calipers for the Triumph Rodeo earlier and thought of your project and you mentioning the plastic/resin brake levers originally fitted.


----------



## Reynard (7 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I came across them whilst searching for the Steel brake calipers for the Triumph Rodeo earlier and thought of your project and you mentioning the plastic/resin brake levers originally fitted.



It's appreciated. Thinking of me, that is. 

This is one of the best things about CC


----------



## 12boy (7 Aug 2020)

Dear Reynard, it isn't a folly
To refurb your bitchin old Raleigh
With each turn of your spanner
You enter Nirvana
And all without spending much lolly.
And the fun and knowledge youve gotten out of this is priceless. I love the frame color. I have a mini-velo that is fairly close.


----------



## Reynard (7 Aug 2020)

12boy said:


> Dear Reynard, it isn't a folly
> To refurb your bitchin old Raleigh
> With each turn of your spanner
> You enter Nirvana
> ...



That bike is definitely... different... @12boy - bet it's a blast to ride.  And I bet it turns heads wherever you go. 

I'm a competent mechanic generally, albeit not a terribly confident one. And working on this bike has done the world of good for my confidence. For a spur-of-the-moment impulse buy and project, it's definitely been worth it. And I'll have a really nice bike tailored to my needs to show for it at the end. I think it will compliment my road bike and hybrid / tourer rather nicely.

I have a late 50s / early 60s junior Hercules up on the loft, and I might see what I can do with that at some point. It's too small for me now, but I rode it loads back in the day. That will introduce me to the joys (!) of rod brakes and cottered cranks...


----------



## 12boy (7 Aug 2020)

Actually I have 3 small wheel bikes...A Brompton, a Xootr Swift and the Mercier. All three were developed as commuter bikes which stored small for the denizens of London (as you know), New York city and Tokyo so they are 3 different approaches to similar situations. And you are right...They are all three a lot of fun, although the Brompton is my favorite of the six bikes I keep on hand. Since all bikes are a compromise, I too enjoy having some that fill a niche. A Cannondale mtn bike that takes 1.95 studded snows for winter, a Holdsworth Special, currently an IGH 3 speed but a great long ride bike, Surly Steamroller that can be fixed, single speed or the 3 speed, and the 3 small wheelers above. Most days it's the Brompton or the Surly, but I enjoy a date with the others as well. I've enclosed a shot of the Xooter so you could see that approach to a fast, nimble little machine designed for crap streets and high congestion. Praps you can make out the sticker on the top tube. After all, this is the Cowboy State.


----------



## Reynard (7 Aug 2020)

The first thing that sprang to mind about the Mercier was that it looked like a Brompton crossed with a road bike... 

Actually, I'd love a Brompton, but alas simply can't justify the cost. If I was commuting to Cambridge on a regular basis, then yes, because it wouldn't limit me which trains I can use. But right now public transport is a non-option, and for the times I do head that way, I sling the hybrid in the back of the car, park in Milton and ride the rest of the way in.

I had a lovely run out on my road bike this afternoon. Poor thing hadn't been ridden since early May, as the hybrid is my do-it-all bike. But sometimes a girl needs to put a smile on her face, and that's what the roadie does for me.


----------



## 12boy (7 Aug 2020)

Thinking back, my Brompton is my most expensive bike, but mainly because I've bought so many for peanuts used. My Holdsworth, full Campy, with Phil hubs, extra spokes, sprocket clusters, bottom brackets, a truing stand and a regular stand as well was $180 at an estate sale, for example. The only problem with all these bikes is storing them, extra wheels, tools,tires, parts and so forth. Definitely have to do a Swedish Death Cleansing when I get too old to ride.


----------



## Reynard (7 Aug 2020)

My Wiggins Rouen road bike is the only bike I have that's been bought new. The Wiggins Chartres hybrid was bought off a CC member, the Raleigh from the local tip, the Emmelle MTB secondhand from a LBS close to 30 years ago, and the Hercules was a skip find.

The latter two I don't ride anymore - too big and too small respectively.

Cost versus projected use is precisely why I can't justify a Brompton.


----------



## 12boy (7 Aug 2020)

Ah, but you could make it fit so perfectly and you would look so chic riding it. Besides, you got a Raleigh singing a siren song right now.


----------



## Reynard (8 Aug 2020)

12boy said:


> Ah, but you could make it fit so perfectly and you would look so chic riding it. Besides, you got a Raleigh singing a siren song right now.



I think I'd get shot if I added yet another bicycle...  Though I did ride a lot of small-wheeled bikes when I was a kid, most of which were skip rescues. When you're my height, they look almost like big wheel bikes. 

On a more serious note, a Brommie is out of the question for the foreseeable future. This project, when I've added all the little post-build extras like bar bag, multitool, spares, frame pump, bottle cage, lights, Ergon grips, and possibly a saddle if I can't get on with the Selle SMP, will pretty well much deplete my bike fund to zero. 

I had a bunch of cash leftover after scoring the hybrid second hand last spring (I'd budgeted for new), and what's left is what I'm dipping in to. Even if I had the full bike budget, it would only stretch to just under half a Brompton.


----------



## Reynard (8 Aug 2020)

Well, the tyres have turned up. That was quick, I only ordered them on Thursday evening. The courier delivered them to my neighbour though, some 200 or so yards down the road. 

And finding a replacement seatpost isn't going to be straightforward. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of choice at 25.4mm from what I can see. And the shim is really thin, so maybe I can fit a 26mm post at a pinch, but then again, maybe not.


----------



## Gunk (8 Aug 2020)

I might have one, I’ll have a rummage


----------



## Gunk (8 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> I think I'd get shot if I added yet another bicycle...  Though I did ride a lot of small-wheeled bikes when I was a kid, most of which were skip rescues. When you're my height, they look almost like big wheel bikes.
> 
> On a more serious note, a Brommie is out of the question for the foreseeable future. This project, when I've added all the little post-build extras like bar bag, multitool, spares, frame pump, bottle cage, lights, Ergon grips, and possibly a saddle if I can't get on with the Selle SMP, will pretty well much deplete my bike fund to zero.
> 
> I had a bunch of cash leftover after scoring the hybrid second hand last spring (I'd budgeted for new), and what's left is what I'm dipping in to. Even if I had the full bike budget, it would only stretch to just under half a Brompton.



I wouldn’t advise buying one at the moment, the prices are silly, about 25% more than this time last year. It will all calm down.


----------



## Reynard (8 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> I might have one, I’ll have a rummage



Oooh, thanks! 

Even if you haven't, I really appreciate the looking xxx


----------



## Reynard (8 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> I wouldn’t advise buying one at the moment, the prices are silly, about 25% more than this time last year. It will all calm down.



Indeed, it's a seller's market for bikes right now. Even s/h prices have gone bananas, I was lucky to score the Raleigh for £25...

But while I really can't justify buying a Brommie, I'd just love to try one at some point. It's such a fascinating machine from an engineering standpoint.


----------



## 12boy (9 Aug 2020)

What can you justify? Buy a Brompton and call it....food, rent, car insurance, whatever you like. You can guess how well this strategy has worked for me.


----------



## Reynard (9 Aug 2020)

Basically I don't need one and I can't afford one. It would simply be an expensive white elephant. 

If it was just a little bit over budget, I may have made economies elsewhere, but right now, me and a Brompton are opposite ends of the spectrum of what is financially possible. And that is the case for the foreseeable future, alas. Some of us have to operate at the more humble end of the bicycle price range. 

Doesn't mean I don't want to try one out, because I do. Just for a hoot.

The Raleigh was a bit of an impulse buy - very rare for me, but in my defence I'd had this idea of a bad road / mucky road / winter bike brewing in my head for a while. Actually, ever since I crashed the road bike previous November because I couldn't see a crack in the road thanks to the mud. And as mentioned upthread, I had some money left over from buying the Chartres hybrid, as I scored one secondhand at a good price.


----------



## Reynard (10 Aug 2020)

The new wheels arrived this afternoon!!!  On first inspection they look good and will do very nicely. They're currently sitting out their quarantine in the garage. Tomorrow I'll wipe them down with antibac, and then I can crack on with wheel-related stuff. Thanks for the heads-up re Taylor Wheels @DCBassman 

A brief bit of tinkering today. First, a bit of thinking time determined that with a little bit of botchery (and butchery) I should be able to fit the guards that are in my parts bin. Second, the reflectors have gone back on. And thirdly, I cleaned up the stem and reinstalled it - using vaseline as recommended.

And as @SkipdiverJohn thought, it is a 21.1mm diameter stem.

A friend I'm meeting later in the week has a set of vernier calipers I can borrow, so I'll be able to measure the internal diameter of the seat tube to see exactly what size post I actually need. That 25.4mm post is definitely too loose without the shim, but looking at the scuffs on the post and inside the seat tube, it's likely the shim has been fitted from new. Another example of Raleigh using up bits from the parts bin in order to cut costs, perhaps?

And two things I've learnt this past week. One, that it's far better to smear the balance of the vaseline on the inside of the steerer when installing the stem, and two, that a hot lawn mower bonnet is the perfect place to dry fiddly parts that you've just washed.


----------



## Reynard (11 Aug 2020)

New tyres. Check.






New wheels. Check.





Tyres meet wheels, wheels meet tyres.





Oh c*ck





As per usual, one step forward, one step backwards and one step sideways...

The tyres went onto the wheels really nicely - managed to get them on using my thumbs except for the last handspan or so. Nothing some tyre levers couldn't solve.

I re-used a pair of old tubes as there was nothing wrong with them, although I did put the patched one on the front. Just in case it can't cope with my derriere...  Having gone from single walled rims to double walled rims, the valve stems are now a bit on the short side, but they'll do for now.

Rather like the way the wheels look, they're very well made and the whole wheelset is lighter by some margin than one steel wheel fitted to the Emmelle! And the reflective ring on the tyres will be a useful extra when riding on dark, unlit roads. I plan on putting some of those reflective spoke sleeves on as well.

The problems started when I unpacked the skewers. They don't match.

Oh c*ck, to borrow a select phrase from James May. They work alright and fit alright, but the front is a different style and colour to the rear. I've never bought a wheelset before, but I'd have expected the skewers to match, even if they didn't resemble the ones in the pictures on the website. Anyways, I shall be firing off an e-mail to Taylor Wheels to see what they can do for me. I'm going to angle either for a little refund or for a replacement front skewer, as I prefer the look and mechanism of the rear one (bottom skewer in pic).

That aside, the other issue is springing the rear triangle to get the wheel in. To put it bluntly, I don't have the hands, arms or leverage of a bloke who has a foot in height and four or five more stone in weight over me to be doing something like this without damaging the wheel.  So I'm going to have to go down the threaded bar route to sort the fit of the back wheel and axle.

Irritatingly, I have a length of threaded bar, but it's too short. Classical application of the Law of Sod. I'm meeting my friend tomorrow to borrow her set of callipers to check the seat tube internal diameter. She also has some threaded bar of the right length hanging around, but isn't sure of the diameter. So I said to her to sling it in her bag and we'll see if it fits. Always worth a try.

Failing that, I have to go past the local agricultural engineering and tractor spares place afterwards when I go to pick up mum's prescription, so if what my friend has in terms of threaded bar doesn't fit, then the chances are that the engineering place might have something suitable. Well, it doesn't cost me to pop in and ask, does it?


----------



## DCBassman (12 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> as I prefer the look and mechanism of the rear one (bottom skewer in pic).


Bottom one certainly Shimano to match the hub. 
Quite surprised Taylor didn't match them.


----------



## Reynard (12 Aug 2020)

Today was pretty successful in the scheme of things. Although the way this project has meandered backwards and forwards so far, I'm not holding my breath just yet...

Anyways, last night I fired off an e-mail with photo of skewers attached to Taylor Wheels, and this morning I received an equally polite and rather apologetic reply. A replacement front skewer to match the rear (yes it should have been a Shimano one) has already been dispatched, and should be with me in the the next day or so. Excellent service or what. 

Met up with my friend this afternoon (slung the frame in the back of the car) and availed myself of her vernier callipers in order to sort out the seat tube internal diameter mystery. I now know unequivocally that it is 26 mm. So I shall be off to look for a 26 mm diameter seat post. The bars measured up (where they're clamped in the stem) as 25.5 mm.

I also borrowed a length of threaded bar (my friend's husband is an inveterate tinkerer with all things mechanical), and set about cold setting the rear triangle. The longest part of this operation was actually finding the right sized nuts. I have jars upon jars of assorted nuts and bolts in the garage courtesy of my late dad, but could I find any that fit? As Sod's Law would have it, what I needed was in the very last tub on the very tallest shelf...

So, bar given a coating of grease, and four nuts and two washers threaded on, the latter going on the inside of the dropouts. My suspicions about the non drive side dropout being bent was confirmed when I actually had to use an upholstery mallet to get the bar in. No problems with the drive side dropout.

I set the two outer nuts to around 146-ish mm displacement (to take into account the thickness of the dropouts), and then gradually wound the inner nuts outwards, which steadily increased the spacing. When I reached 140mm, I tightened the outer nuts back down, and am leaving the whole shebang like this overnight.






Sorry guys, I don't have a workstand, so this girl had to improvise by re-fitting the seatpost, saddle and bars. 






But it's a neat job, dare I say so myself. 

And just for reference (below), an earlier shot I took of the rear dropouts. You can see that the NDS one is bent - not massively so, but noticeable. At least I now know I wasn't seeing things... 






I've definitely managed to straighten the NDS dropout, which I'm well pleased about. Every time I find something else, it really makes me wonder exactly what was done to the bike to unjam that chain, though the mechanical engineer in me is building up a pretty decent picture. Steel doesn't bend like cheese without the application of some serious force...

I'll undo the nuts on the bar in the morning and measure the spacing that I've achieved. Chances are I won't have got it right first time, but only the tape measure can tell me that.


----------



## Reynard (13 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> If it is any help Reynard when I did mine I took it out to 165 and it sprung back to 134. That was near enough where I needed it. I'd like to say I had scientifically worked it out but I would be lying, it was just pure guesswork.



Ah, thanks for that. 

Probably means I'll likely need to wind it out a little further, then.


----------



## Reynard (13 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> I did take advice from someone on here though re the quality of the steel, mine was 531. Apparently the cheaper the steel the easier it is to find it's breaking point so maybe do it in small increments.



That's exactly what I'd intended to do. Spread the triangle in small increments, that is. My background is in destructive materials testing, so I'm fully aware of what can go wrong.  The steel needs to be stressed to just beyond that point where deformation under load becomes permanent rather than reversible. It's a fine margin. Push it just that little bit too far, and *ping* 

Hooke's Law and Young's Modulus and all that. 

This frame is basic cro-mo, so not nearly as exotic as yours. Would be a shame to wreck it though.


----------



## Reynard (13 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> Ah right, sorry didn't know your background, good luck with it.



Eh, that's ok, no worries. 

It's rather fun breaking stuff deliberately. This is much more nerve-wracking. Not checked it today yet, but will after lunch.


----------



## DCLane (13 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> I also borrowed a length of threaded bar (my friend's husband is an inveterate tinkerer with all things mechanical), and set about cold setting the rear triangle. The longest part of this operation was actually finding the right sized nuts. I have jars upon jars of assorted nuts and bolts in the garage courtesy of my late dad, but could I find any that fit? As Sod's Law would have it, what I needed was in the very last tub on the very tallest shelf...



Hope this works: I've got to do the same with my son's Dawes Kingpin. It needs spacing from 110mm to 130mm


----------



## raleighnut (13 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> Hope this works: I've got to do the same with my son's Dawes Kingpin. It needs spacing from 110mm to 130mm


I wouldn't even attempt that, you could try it but I don't think the brake bridge would stand that much, maybe get a frame builder to replace that


----------



## Reynard (13 Aug 2020)

Well, we're halfway there!  Took the bar off, and the spacing is now 132.5

So have added another 5 mm, taking the spacing out to 145. Again, will leave that in overnight, and I'm hoping that will be enough. Could hear the metal twanging as I tightened the nuts on the bar.

Extra bonus is that the bent NDS dropout is also now nice and straight. That would explain (in part) why the rear wheel was crabbing when I did my brief test ride.


----------



## Reynard (13 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> Hope this works: I've got to do the same with my son's Dawes Kingpin. It needs spacing from 110mm to 130mm



I'm no expert on bikes, but that is a large deflection, which could potentially lead to problems. I'm not saying it will (one would need to do the relevant maths first to be absolutely sure) but you need to bear in mind:

1) Stress raisers at the brake bridge and at the joins / welds
2) Change in geometry will both alter the way the frame is loaded and the distribution of that loading
3) Potentially significant plastic deflection on fairly thin steel tubing. Pushing this too far will eventually make the metal creep under load, and then *twangggg*

+1 for taking it to a workshop and getting an opinion first, especially since I've seen that this bike is definitely not being used for merely bimbling along.


----------



## Gunk (13 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> Hope this works: I've got to do the same with my son's Dawes Kingpin. It needs spacing from 110mm to 130mm



I used the same method on my Raleigh Banana to fit a more modern 700c wheeset, it worked fine, but it was only a 10mm stretch.


----------



## DCBassman (13 Aug 2020)

Much like the Kingpin, I'm a little wary of spreading a 700c mixte frame from 120 to 126 because of all the extra metalwork, but it would make life so much easier if I could!


----------



## Reynard (13 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> I used the same method on my Raleigh Banana to fit a more modern 700c wheeset, it worked fine, but it was only a 10mm stretch.



10 mm on a large bike is doable - it's not just the length of the tubing, but also the angles. Whereas on frame with shorter tubing, by pushing out the axle spacing too far, you'll end up generating forces and moments in places where they weren't designed to be.


----------



## Reynard (14 Aug 2020)

The extra 5 mm I added to the threaded bar yesterday has resulted in another 1 mm of axle spacing, so I'm now at just over 133 mm. I can actually get the wheel in now, but not all the way.

At the moment, the relationship between deflection and permanent deformation is roughly linear (in reality the stress-strain graph in the plastic deformation region is actually slightly curved), so another 10 mm on the bar should do the trick. I will do it in two stages though, just in case.

At least on this bike with this particular geometry, I've needed to add 5 mm of deflection on the bar for every mm gained in axle spacing, so in theory, for an original OLN of 130 mm, I'll have had to wind it out to 155 mm to bring it to an OLN of 135.

Hope this info might be useful for you @DCLane


----------



## Reynard (14 Aug 2020)

Roger Longbottom said:


> You have rather overshadowed my stick a car jack in it and hope for the best method with all this scientific speak 😀



You can take the girl out of engineering, but you can't take the engineering out of the girl


----------



## Gunk (14 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> The extra 5 mm I added to the threaded bar yesterday has resulted in another 1 mm of axle spacing, so I'm now at just over 133 mm. I can actually get the wheel in now, but not all the way.
> 
> At the moment, the relationship between deflection and permanent deformation is roughly linear (in reality the stress-strain graph in the plastic deformation region is actually slightly curved), so another 10 mm on the bar should do the trick. I will do it in two stages though, just in case.
> 
> ...



Mine took a week of using this method, just a small increment each evening, once I could get the rear wheel in with a slight tug I was happy.


----------



## Reynard (14 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> Mine took a week of using this method, just a small increment each evening, once I could get the rear wheel in with a slight tug I was happy.



Yeah, it will be about that. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.


----------



## DCLane (14 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> The extra 5 mm I added to the threaded bar yesterday has resulted in another 1 mm of axle spacing, so I'm now at just over 133 mm. I can actually get the wheel in now, but not all the way.
> 
> At the moment, the relationship between deflection and permanent deformation is roughly linear (in reality the stress-strain graph in the plastic deformation region is actually slightly curved), so another 10 mm on the bar should do the trick. I will do it in two stages though, just in case.
> 
> ...



Useful information - and about the bar. I _tried_ getting my mechanical engineering son to help but he's now back at university.

We'll be having a go over the next few weeks. It _may_ work. If it cracks the frame then I've got a problem, particularly as I've just shelled out for a metallic purple paintjob on the Kingpin


----------



## Reynard (14 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> Useful information - and about the bar. I _tried_ getting my mechanical engineering son to help but he's now back at university.
> 
> We'll be having a go over the next few weeks. It _may_ work. If it cracks the frame then I've got a problem, particularly as I've just shelled out for a metallic purple paintjob on the Kingpin



Fingers crossed.

Might be a good idea to keep track of progress in graph form; deflection on the x axis and axle spacing on the y. There's nothing quite like a good visual aide memoir in these circumstances.

That way if you see the plot starting to deviate noticeably from what's expected, you'll know it's time to stop before it's pushed too far, and that snazzy new paintjob will live to fight another day.


----------



## Reynard (15 Aug 2020)

The 5 mm I added onto the bar yesterday was enough to give me the 2 mm I still needed on axle spacing. So in the end, I only needed a displacement of 150 mm to expand the spacing of the dropouts from 130 to 135.

Well, I did say that the relationship between stress and strain is actually slightly curved at this point, so it just shows that this modification is well worth doing in small increments to avoid a potential disaster. I think this is exactly why all the bike websites (e.g. Sheldon) only advocate going up one axle size.

Anyway, the NDS dropout is very nearly straight (likely it will straighten itself over time now anyway as I ride), and the wheel just popped into the dropouts like a dream. One very happy (and relieved) girl here. I think this looks mighty fine, don't you?












So I put both wheels on the bike, tipped it the right side up and got the brake pads in a better (but not final) position. Max is starting to look like a real bike again.  Sorry for the cluttered background, it's been pishing with rain here all day, so I stayed in the garage.






At this point, I realised that the rear reflector was about as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot, as it is near enough completely obscured by the rear wheel. That's got nothing to do with the new wheels and tyres - looking back at the original pics of the bike from when I brought it home, it's clear that was always the case. So I removed both reflectors from the bike and put them to one side. I may stick the front one back on, we'll see, but for the rear, I'll probably get some red reflective tape and put a couple of bands of that on each seat stay instead.

What I also did was fit the el-cheapo £5 mudguards from Wilkinsons on that were on the Emmelle. With a bit of jiggery pokery, they went on OK, though how effective they are remains to be seen. My view is that it doesn't cost me to try. If they work well, then the job's a good 'un, but if my feet and derriere get wet and muddy, then's the time to look for something better.






I'm really chuffed with how this is coming out. Have pretty well much decided to go for everything black e.g. bars, seat post, bottle cage, crankset etc. This will be a really eye-catching bike when it's done.

Next step is to make a decision on the number of sprockets on the rear and do a spot of maths. As mentioned upthread, I'm looking to end up with something similar to the range on the hybrid; it'll give me what I want on the flat, and also have some granny gears in hand if I decide to do an away day somewhere a bit less flat.


----------



## fossyant (15 Aug 2020)

Looks great ! Not so much a hack now - don't go leaving it anywhere !


----------



## Reynard (15 Aug 2020)

fossyant said:


> Looks great ! Not so much a hack now - don't go leaving it anywhere !



Not without a couple of good locks if I do have to park it up somewhere, at any rate...


----------



## Gunk (15 Aug 2020)

Looks quite exotic without the shell suit decals, personally I’d leave it plain.


----------



## Reynard (15 Aug 2020)

Shell suit decals... I like that, @Gunk  

I'm keeping the frame plain - the colour of the bike just speaks for itself.


----------



## DCBassman (15 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Have pretty well much decided to go for everything black


If you go 8-speed, the shifters I have are silver...
If 7, then black it is!


----------



## Reynard (15 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> If you go 8-speed, the shifters I have are silver...
> If 7, then black it is!



My plans are quite flexible. 

As I've discovered with this project, nothing is set in stone until it is, well, set in stone. Or on the bike, at least.  At one stage I was thinking of doing all the accessories and cabling in bright green.


----------



## DCBassman (16 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> At one stage I was thinking of doing all the accessories and cabling in bright green.


And why not?


----------



## 12boy (16 Aug 2020)

You did a good job with the fenders. I like the stickerless look too... I only want the one which identifies the tubing, as Reynolds 531, for example, and this one. And neither of the bikes bearing it have been stolen although the others haven't either. You did well spotting that frame and seeing the possibilities.


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> And why not?



That idea lasted until I realised that I was at serious risk of blinding anyone who came within 50 paces of the bike. I don't quite have the funds to buy everyone a pair of sunglasses.


----------



## DCLane (16 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> That idea lasted until I realised that I was at serious risk of blinding anyone who came within 50 paces of the bike. I don't quite have the funds to buy everyone a pair of sunglasses.



This was my magnesium Carrera; lime green cables on a metallic lime green frame with other lime green parts (tyres / top cap / bar tape). It also had one of the lime mesh saddles as well.






It was definately visible as my commuter into Leeds city centre. Last seen being ridden by a crazy Hungarian medical student around the city centre.


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> This was my magnesium Carrera; lime green cables on a metallic lime green frame with other lime green parts (tyres / top cap / bar tape). It also had one of the lime mesh saddles as well.
> 
> View attachment 541960
> 
> ...



That is one striking bike @DCLane  I really like that. No problem with the "now where did I leave my bike" kind of thing.

The combo of a screamingly bright colour with black / grey / alloy works really well.  Two screamingly bright colours together, perhaps not quite so much.  Although a friend of mine did race a stock car in the bright red / bright green combo back in the day.


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2020)

Guys, a question for you.

The RD that came with the bike is a Tourney TY 15 SS. Sorry, it's an arty-farty photo of the I took for the photo challenge, and yes, I know the nut and bolt are on the wrong way round.  Have done a bit of reading up, and as I suspected, I shall have to replace it, as it's only capable of a) 28 teeth max on rear sprockets and b) 6 speed.






Seeings I'm leaning towards 8 speed and 11-30, or maybe (depending on how the maths looks) 11-32, what would be a suitable replacement? There are a load of options, so from my perspective it's a bit of a minefield.

I also need to find a hanger that would work with whatever RD I eventually choose, as the above bolts directly to the dropouts.


----------



## Gunk (16 Aug 2020)

Something like this would do the trick

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124285378963


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2020)

Gunk said:


> Something like this would do the trick
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124285378963



OK, I'll bear something like that in mind if I can't find an alternative solution to the below.  Maybe just a bit less bashed, though, although it will eat into the budget.  Which means I'll have to economize elsewhere.

I was thinking somewhere along the lines of https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-acera-m360-7-8sp-rear-derailleur/rp-prod38673 or maybe https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-altus-m310-7-8sp-rear-derailleur/rp-prod145238 but I'd have to work out how to fit it... 

Surely some kind of adapter hanger exists somewhere, as I would imagine this is quite a common upgrade. As I mentioned upthread, period correct is not something I'm worried about.

As I said this is out of my area of expertise, so expect stupid questions.


----------



## DRM (16 Aug 2020)

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/derailleur-hanger-id_8329146.html
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ty300-6-7s-rear-derailleur-id_8523798.html
These are what I ordered for my Raleigh.


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2020)

DRM said:


> https://www.decathlon.co.uk/derailleur-hanger-id_8329146.html
> https://www.decathlon.co.uk/ty300-6-7s-rear-derailleur-id_8523798.html
> These are what I ordered for my Raleigh.



Ah, brill!  That hanger looks like the right one I'm looking for.


----------



## DRM (16 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Ah, brill!  That hanger looks like the right one I'm looking for.


Delivery was pretty quick too, quite impressed with the service from Decathlon


----------



## Reynard (16 Aug 2020)

DRM said:


> Delivery was pretty quick too, quite impressed with the service from Decathlon



I usually get a lot of my general cycling gubbins from Decathlon, albeit in store. And other stuff too.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

Also found here at the same price: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-compatible-rear-gear-hanger-bracket/

So I can now decide what colour to go for


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Have done a bit of reading up, and as I suspected, I shall have to replace it, as it's only capable of a) 28 teeth max on rear sprockets and b) 6 speed.



14-28 freewheels form the backbone of my derailleur geared fleet! As a youngster, I remember a couple of kids on sportier and more expensive machinery than my Raleigh, only having something like 14-24's - and IIRC, they were only 5-speed clusters too. So long as you have a decent range of gears at the front, and with an MTB/touring triple of say 48/38/28, you really don't need anything bigger than a 28T on the back, or any more than six sprockets. I even have a couple of 5-speeders and these are OK, although sixes do give nicer spacing. Don't forget also that you are only running 24" wheels, which gives you an advantage when it comes to hill climbing compared to anyone with the same gearsets but running 26" or 27" wheels.


----------



## DCBassman (17 Aug 2020)

The Altus is a fine 8-speed RD, using one on my Trek, 9-speed 12-36. Probably the smoothest mech I have, and it was a tip salvage job!


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> 14-28 freewheels form the backbone of my derailleur geared fleet! As a youngster, I remember a couple of kids on sportier and more expensive machinery than my Raleigh, only having something like 14-24's - and IIRC, they were only 5-speed clusters too. So long as you have a decent range of gears at the front, and with an MTB/touring triple of say 48/38/28, you really don't need anything bigger than a 28T on the back, or any more than six sprockets. I even have a couple of 5-speeders and these are OK, although sixes do give nicer spacing. Don't forget also that you are only running 24" wheels, which gives you an advantage when it comes to hill climbing compared to anyone with the same gearsets but running 26" or 27" wheels.



I am a slow cyclist. Any advantage I might get from the 24 inch wheels over someone on a bigger wheeled bike will inevitably be negated by my short little legs.  I am the cyclist that *everyone* overtakes. 

Plus I'm moving up to 8 speed cassette on the back, so even if I stayed with a 28T maximum sprocket on the rear, the current RD is only capable of working with a maximum of 6 sprockets.

Front is still undecided. I'm yet to do the maths regarding the gearing, but I'll be working on the assumption that I'll be fitting an 11-30. The goal is to get a similar-ish range to my Chartres 26 hybrid. Plus I still have the original 42-32-22 set-up to play with.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> The Altus is a fine 8-speed RD, using one on my Trek, 9-speed 12-36. Probably the smoothest mech I have, and it was a tip salvage job!



I have the 9-speed version on my Chartres 26.


----------



## DCBassman (17 Aug 2020)

This is the selection I have. Ignore prices, postage only.
A plethora of shifters
Out of these, only the ST-Rs are designed to work with any brakes. They also have the big four-finger levers. If you do decide to go V-brake, then they will all work.


----------



## 12boy (17 Aug 2020)

Just for fun I ran 22 chainring with 28 rear sprocket through Sheldon's gear inch calculator and came up with 17.3 gear inches. With a 30 teeth sprocket it was 16.I and with a 32 it was 15.1. 0bviously the heart wants what the heart wants, but with gearing that low it would be hard for me to avoid falling over. I was surprised that the sprocket change would have so little effect.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

Yay!!! The correct front QR skewer has arrived. And they've said to keep the wrong one they sent. Fabby service from Taylor Wheels.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> This is the selection I have. Ignore prices, postage only.
> A plethora of shifters
> Out of these, only the ST-Rs are designed to work with any brakes. They also have the big four-finger levers. If you do decide to go V-brake, then they will all work.



OK, cheers. 

Are those the bottom ones that work with all brake types?


----------



## DCLane (17 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Yay!!! The correct front QR skewer has arrived. And they've said to keep the wrong one they sent. Fabby service from Taylor Wheels.



Unlike PlanetX who've sent me a returns form for the wrong item they sent and let me know they'll ask the warehouse team to see if they can find the correct one.

Taylor Wheels got that the right way round: fix your error first, then get the item back/keep it.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

12boy said:


> Just for fun I ran 22 chainring with 28 rear sprocket through Sheldon's gear inch calculator and came up with 17.3 gear inches. With a 30 teeth sprocket it was 16.I and with a 32 it was 15.1. 0bviously the heart wants what the heart wants, but with gearing that low it would be hard for me to avoid falling over. I was surprised that the sprocket change would have so little effect.



It's not all about the 22 chainring to be fair. 

The goal is to get a nice range of ratios across the whole cassette on the middle ring that work well with the smaller cogs on the big ring and, a touch less critical, the big cogs on the inner ring. (The latter though are very useful on the Hybrid though, when cycling back the five and a half miles from the supermarket with two panniers and a rack bag stuffed full of shopping...)

Every rider is different in their needs. Me, I prefer to spin rather than grind, and will often shift between big and middle chain rings to find that "Goldilocks gear"


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> Unlike PlanetX who've sent me a returns form for the wrong item they sent and let me know they'll ask the warehouse team to see if they can find the correct one.



Huh? 

That's just nuts.


----------



## DCLane (17 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Huh?
> 
> That's just nuts.



That was my thought. I'm being passed around customer service as well, which is annoying. They're OK for ordering but I'm finding their returns process infuriating.

Oh, and as you're going for a colour bike this is my son's example which he built last year for fun - this year he built a hillclimbing PlanetX for the hillclimb national in Reading. The Dutch holidaymakers liked it when we were on holiday last year:







You _could _go red saddle, red grips, red chainrings, red chain, red tyres, red mudguards, red cables, red brake pads with your Raleigh re-build. 

Just saying ...


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> That was my thought. I'm being passed around customer service as well, which is annoying. They're OK for ordering but I'm finding their returns process infuriating.
> 
> Oh, and as you're going for a colour bike this is my son's example which he built last year for fun - this year he built a hillclimbing PlanetX for the hillclimb national in Reading:
> 
> ...



I remember following that orange bike build, as I was kind of intrigued. It's totally bonkers, but utterly brilliant. 

But I'm working to a fairly tight budget here, and that would be so very bye bye budget...


----------



## DCLane (17 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> I remember following that orange bike build, as I was kind of intrigued. It's totally bonkers, but utterly brilliant.
> 
> But I'm working to a fairly tight budget here, and that would be so very bye bye budget...



You never know. The whole Carlton build cost under £200 including paint as parts were sourced from eBay and lots of other places. The challenge was more in finding the part listed as an auction / low buy now price and being prepared to wait. Occasionally, as in the case of the Velo Orange bottom bracket, it was sat on a one of my club-mates shelf unwanted for years.

It depends _how tight_ your budget is.


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> You never know. The whole Carlton build cost under £200 including paint as parts were sourced from eBay and lots of other places. The challenge was more in finding the part listed as an auction / low buy now price and being prepared to wait. Occasionally, as in the case of the Velo Orange bottom bracket, it was sat on a one of my club-mates shelf unwanted for years.
> 
> It depends _how tight_ your budget is.



It's far tighter than I'd like, alas, as the bike looked far better than it actually was. As a result, I'm having to put my sensible girl pants on and not go bananas, no matter how much my imagination wants me to.


----------



## DCLane (17 Aug 2020)

Well you've got rear derailleur/hanger, crankset, chain and pedals to go - so nearly there. Looks good so far.

Note that I've never heard of there being 'sensible boy' pants, so don't own any. Just 'sensible girl' ones


----------



## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> Well you've got rear derailleur/hanger, crankset, chain and pedals to go - so nearly there. Looks good so far.
> 
> Note that I've never heard of there being 'sensible boy' pants, so don't own any. Just 'sensible girl' ones



Still looking at options on most of those parts right now and working out which is the best way to go. Free P&P is also a bit of a carrot.  The only bits I've actually got to hand is chain, pedals plus the original crankset and grips - which may or may not be used, depending on how things pan out. I've also got to factor in bars and seat post as the former are damaged and the latter is too short, wrong diameter and more than a tad rusty.

P.S. I've not heard of "sensible boy pants" either. Never quite worked out why it's only us girls who need big, sensible underpants.


----------



## Reynard (20 Aug 2020)

Had a bit of a tinker this afternoon, and have been doing some thinking about parts. It all stems from the fact that the cassette I wanted to fit is now as rare as sparkly unicorn farts, so it looks like I'll have to go with an 11-32 by default.

That will definitely mean that the existing crankset won't be ideal. Unfortunately (and unsurprisingly) stock isn't great on replacements, and in any case, the cranks are too long (typically 170 or 175). Not sure where to look for junior cranksets - any ideas @DCLane ?

Anyways, as I mentioned several pages ago, I have the original FSA outer chainring (of a triple) and cranks that were OEM on my Wiggins Chartres 26. The bike's previous owner swapped them out to something she preferred, but gave me all the original bits when I bought the bike. I put these on the Raleigh this afternoon to see how things fitted. Well, they fit and look good (they're black, so go swimmingly with the colour scheme), but clearances are very tight.

The Raleigh's BB spindle is 122mm, which is far too short really. I probably need a spindle in the region of 140mm if I'm going to go with *any* crankset other than the original. That side of things should be easily rectifiable, I think.

The outer ring I have is 46T @ 130 BCD with 5 bolts, and I'm thinking, assuming what I need exists, about building a 46-34-22 triple up from scratch (or something along those lines). I'll probably ask a more detailed question on the mechanics & repair board to a) see if this is feasible, b) financially viable and c) if so, what additional bits I'll need in order to build a functioning triple.

What do you reckon, folks?


----------



## DCBassman (20 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> so it looks like I'll have to go with an 11-32 by default.


Nah...
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/1130-shimano-cshg41-8-speed-cassette/ 11-30 option Acera
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/1130-shimano-cshg51-8-speed-cassette/ 11-30 option Sora
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/1130-shimano-cshg31i-8-speed-cassette/ 11-30 option Altus - and it's black!


----------



## chriswoody (20 Aug 2020)

I've been quietly following along and this is starting to look really good. 

With regard to the crankset, Thorn do a range of short arm cranks, sadly though they are four bolt and won't fit your existing rings:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cranks/150-thorn-10464-pcd-triple-crankset-mk2-black/

They also do a complete crankset, but it's a little pricey:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/chainsets/thorn-short-triple-chainset-black-443222t-155mm/

maybe someone else has some better ideas?


----------



## bikingdad90 (20 Aug 2020)

I’ve got a Lasco 46/30 in black that I took off a Wiggins Rouen? It’s 165mm cranks. Any good for you?


----------



## Reynard (20 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Nah...
> https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/1130-shimano-cshg41-8-speed-cassette/ 11-30 option Acera
> https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/1130-shimano-cshg51-8-speed-cassette/ 11-30 option Sora
> https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cassettes/1130-shimano-cshg31i-8-speed-cassette/ 11-30 option Altus - and it's black!



It's the bottom one I'm after, and the 11-30 is listed as out of stock.


----------



## Reynard (20 Aug 2020)

bikingdad90 said:


> I’ve got a Lasco 46/30 in black that I took off a Wiggins Rouen? It’s 165mm cranks. Any good for you?



Alas not, it's a triple I'm after... Thanks muchly for the offer though


----------



## Reynard (20 Aug 2020)

chriswoody said:


> I've been quietly following along and this is starting to look really good.
> 
> With regard to the crankset, Thorn do a range of short arm cranks, sadly though they are four bolt and won't fit your existing rings:
> 
> ...



I've been looking at those, but they'll blow the budget right out of the water...


----------



## Reynard (20 Aug 2020)

I really appreciate the pointers and thoughts guys xxx  I'll take some photos of the FSA cranks and big ring as fitted tomorrow, and pop them in there.

One bit of info I should have added is that it's a 68mm BB shell.

SJS have a 127.5mm BB spindle for a 68mm BB for £4.99, so that's potentially an option at least.


----------



## DCLane (20 Aug 2020)

@Reynard - Kids Racing do short cranksets but they're not cheap: https://kidsracing.co.uk/collections/short-cranksets-kids-cranks-lengths-narrow-q-factors

Personally I'd be searching on eBay for a second-hand one, or an old kids bike to dismantle.

Alternatively do you have a bike workshop near you that recycles bikes? They're likely to have one spare for a small sum.


----------



## raleighnut (21 Aug 2020)

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/smsimg/17/3534-12079-full-rd2-triple-black-black-1-17.jpg

This any good, 165mm crank length available

EDIT thought it would link to the product not just a picture. They do one with a 48 tooth big ring as well as the 50


----------



## raleighnut (21 Aug 2020)

https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s109p3534/SPA-CYCLES-RD-2-Triple-Chainset-with-Zicral-Rings

That's better.


----------



## Reynard (21 Aug 2020)

DCLane said:


> @Reynard - Kids Racing do short cranksets but they're not cheap: https://kidsracing.co.uk/collections/short-cranksets-kids-cranks-lengths-narrow-q-factors
> 
> Personally I'd be searching on eBay for a second-hand one, or an old kids bike to dismantle.
> 
> Alternatively do you have a bike workshop near you that recycles bikes? They're likely to have one spare for a small sum.



I did check Kids Racing out earlier, but they didn't have what I was after. And you're not joking about them not being cheap! 

Secondhand is definitely an option while I save up the pennies for something nice, perhaps.  Might put a request in the "wanted" section on here as well - that's always worth a punt. Someone might have something suitable knocking around...

Yes, there is a bike co-operative in the next village along, but they're not that great, which is frustrating.


----------



## Reynard (21 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> https://www.spacycles.co.uk/smsimg/17/3534-12079-full-rd2-triple-black-black-1-17.jpg
> 
> This any good, 165mm crank length available
> 
> EDIT thought it would link to the product not just a picture. They do one with a 48 tooth big ring as well as the 50



They also do this: https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s109p3052/SPA-CYCLES-TD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset-with-Zicral-Rings

They do a 46-34-24 which would be nice, but I'd have to save up for that...  It *is* very nice, though, and would look lovely on the bike.  But I've got to be realistic.

I think that it looks like I'll be going down the secondhand route for now.


----------



## DCLane (21 Aug 2020)

Secondhand there's a £30 delivered 165mm 46/36/26 option on eBay, although it's square taper: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-A-Ero-165-Length-Triple-Crank-46-36-26-Eroica/184397460309


----------



## Reynard (21 Aug 2020)

Square taper is what I need. 

I don't need one yesterday, so am prepared to look at all the options.


----------



## DCBassman (21 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> OK, cheers.
> 
> Are those the bottom ones that work with all brake types?


Yes, sorry for late reply!


----------



## Reynard (22 Aug 2020)

OK, I did a fair bit of thinking and measuring and looking things up online yesterday.

The "build my own triple" idea is off the table as it's just not financially viable if using even half decent parts. Still, it was an option worth exploring. And I really do want to stick to my £200 budget for now.

The longest cranks I can realistically fit on the bike are 165mm. With the FSA Veros fitted, there is only about 5mm clearance between crank and chainstay. Plus I get a similar overlap with the front mudguard when I turn the steering, so I'm at risk of constantly clipping that while riding. OK, it's not a biggie, I can trim the guard down a bit, but still... 

Which definitely means anything with cranks bigger than 165mm are off the table. This is irritating, as the cranksets that are within budget either have the right ratios and the wrong crank length, or the right crank length but less than optimal gearing.

Spa have some lovely options which would work, but right now, I have to say no, I can't afford that. Especially since I'm still not sure exactly where I'd like the gearing to be. I can only do this by riding the bike. The maths can only tell me so much.

Which means that at this point, I shall have to compromise.

This is something that you guys riding bigger frames don't generally have to think about - you fit stuff to suit your tastes and away you go. But there is a dearth of affordable parts designed to fit on small frames - it's not for the want of looking. My guess is that junior bikes, other than at the premium / super premium ends of the scale, are considered essentially disposable, which is why replacement parts seem to be made out of the fabled unobtanium. Kids grow out of bikes, I don't. The downside of being a short adult rider.

The original cranks fitted to the Raleigh are 152mm, and my Wiggins Rouen road bike runs 160mm, so I'm going to have to stay in that sort of ballpark in order to avoid clearance and toe overlap issues.

I did find THIS last night on the Bay of E - a Suntour junior crankset. 152mm cranks, 42-34-24

The big ring is probably slightly too small (same number of teeth as the original) but the middle and inner rings are in the ballpark of where I want to be. I'm still going to look around a bit, but I'm thinking that for £15 it's certainly worth considering.


----------



## raleighnut (22 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> OK, I did a fair bit of thinking and measuring and looking things up online yesterday.
> 
> The "build my own triple" idea is off the table as it's just not financially viable if using even half decent parts. Still, it was an option worth exploring. And I really do want to stick to my £200 budget for now.
> 
> ...


Don't forget you are changing from a freewheel at the back with a 14 top gear to a freehub/cassette with 11 teeth as a 'top'.


----------



## 12boy (22 Aug 2020)

With a 34 tooth sprocket, a 22 tooth chainring and tires with inch long spikes you will be able to climb trees. The toelap problem is also found on short wheel base bikes such as my Fuji Track. It does take a little getting used to and preparation before a sharp turn.


----------



## Reynard (22 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Don't forget you are changing from a freewheel at the back with a 14 top gear to a freehub/cassette with 11 teeth as a 'top'.



Indeed.  That's one of the many variables that I'm taking into account while thinking this through.

If I match that Suntour triple with the 11-34 version of that cassette, it gives me a range that's almost as wide as my Chartres hybrid. On paper, I can see that I'm losing out more at the top end than at the bottom, but I won't really know what it feels like until I ride the bike.

And to be honest, I'd rather not find out that I don't like the gearing after having spent serious money and totally blown the budget. Talking to the people at Spa Cycles is always an option for the future if I decide that things do need tweaking.


----------



## Reynard (22 Aug 2020)

12boy said:


> With a 34 tooth sprocket, a 22 tooth chainring and tires with inch long spikes you will be able to climb trees. The toelap problem is also found on short wheel base bikes such as my Fuji Track. It does take a little getting used to and preparation before a sharp turn.



I've no shortage of trees - I live on the edge of a wood.  Hopefully the bike should be a capable winter mudplugger.

Toe overlap was something I originally ran across when shopping for a road bike a few years ago. It was the reason I plumped for a bike with 650c wheels as opposed to 700c ones.  One thing less to make me fall flat on my face, you see...


----------



## Reynard (23 Aug 2020)

Eh, possibly scrub the 11-34... It's one of those megarange jobbies - seven sensibly-spaced sprockets with a dinner plate stuck on as an afterthought.

11-32T: 11 / 13 / 15 / 18 / 21 / 24 / 28 / 32

11-34T: 11 / 13 / 15 / 17 / 20 / 23 / 26 / 34 

As far as I can see, all the Shimano 8-speed 11-34 cassettes are the same. 

I think I'd much rather lose two teeth on the biggest sprocket and get a more sensible progression right across the whole range. When it's really windy here, I tend to spend a fair bit of time on the middle ring (on the hybrid), so that's another factor I have to consider. It's not all about the biggest and smallest gears.


----------



## DCBassman (23 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> 11-34T: 11 / 13 / 15 / 17 / 20 / 23 / 26 / 34


Exactly why I went to the 12-36 9-speed cassettes. Nice smooth progression.


----------



## All uphill (23 Aug 2020)

I had a Megarange 7sp cassette on a Trek hybrid. Soon got used to using it as a six speed with an emergency low gear for those "holy sh*t" moments. Quite useful imo.


----------



## Reynard (23 Aug 2020)

Guess it depends where you're riding, though.


----------



## Reynard (24 Aug 2020)

You know, it's rather dangerous to work on assumptions. As an engineer, I really should have known better i.e. check everything. And just as well I did...

I assumed that the lady from whom I bought the Chartres hybrid only replaced the big ring on the bike, and that the middle and inner were the original rings. So I was doing all the maths and gear selection for the Raleigh on the basis of the Chartres running the stock gearing of 44-32-22. But it wasn't. Ooops. The Chartres is actually running 48-38-28, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

So scrub the idea of buying that 42-34-24 for the Raleigh off the Bay of E. That's going to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too low on the gearing. And it's actually identical to the original chainset on the bike, so essentially would have been wasted money. And my original impression of the gearing on the Raleigh can be said to be flawed, simply because the damage to the drive train would have made it feel like the gears were bigger than they actually were. if I replace like for like, there will be a lot of whizzing round of legs and not a lot of going anywhere.

Anyway, I redid all the maths and stuck the results into a spreadsheet. What I've done is compared the gearing on the Chartres, the Rouen road bike and on the Raleigh. I've done the calculations for latter assuming the same chainset that is fitted to the Chartres. Anyways, the plots are given below, where H is the Chartres, R is the Rouen roadie and M is the Raleigh mountain bike:







Chartres: 113.42 - 21.41 gear inches (48-38-28 & 11-34)
Rouen: 108.72 - 29.47 gear inches (46-34 & 11-30)
Raleigh: 104.72 - 21 gear inches (assuming 48-38-28 & 11-32)

So it looks like a 48-38-28 is more or less the right way to go if I want comparable gearing to the other two bikes. Actually, it gives me (on the big and middle rings) something very similar to the road bike. Based on my previous chainset hunting, unless I can find something on the Bay of E, I may as well go straight to Spa Cycles, as I need the shorter cranks. Their XD-2 touring triple looks like it will fit the bill if I don't want to blow the budget completely out of the water.

As an aside, the chainset on the Chartres is showing signs of wear, so when I replace it, the graph shows that I could probably come down a couple of teeth on the big ring, and quite possibly on the other two as well, as I'm not as strong a cyclist as the original owner. At least on the Chartres crank length isn't quite so critical due to the different frame geometry, so there are more options available.


----------



## Reynard (26 Aug 2020)

Well, some more bits have been purchased.

I went for the Altus RD-M310 rear derailleur in the end, and it seems like I have acquired the last available one on Planet Earth. Plus I now have on order from SJS Cycles the Altus 11-32 8-speed cassette, a black 25.8mm diameter seatpost, a pair of brake hangers and a rear mech hanger.

That lot sticks another £53 onto the build, so the running total, including the cost of the bike is now £176.

Of the necessary expenditures left, I still need chainset, bars and a set of gear cables. And I'll be in touch via PM re those shifters @DCBassman


----------



## 12boy (26 Aug 2020)

Grant Petersen at Rivendell discusses why lower end derailleurs, brake levers and shifters work as well as their more expensive brethren at just a little more weight and a lot less expense. Even lower grade derailleurs are better than high end ones in the past. You will have a bitchin machine when your done fer sure.


----------



## DCBassman (26 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> And I'll be in touch via PM re those shifters @DCBassman


Cool. After the flat bar/drop bar/flat bar faffing I did to the Scott roadie, including a short spell back at 8-speed, they've still got essentially new inners fitted. One less thing to buy!


----------



## DCBassman (26 Aug 2020)

12boy said:


> Grant Petersen at Rivendell discusses why lower end derailleurs, brake levers and shifters work as well as their more expensive brethren at just a little more weight and a lot less expense. Even lower grade derailleurs are better than high end ones in the past. You will have a bitchin machine when your done fer sure.


Truth. I'm using nothing above Alivio grade, and it all works far better than, say, 15 year old Sora stuff. In fact the 7-speed Altus stuff from 2001 was still absolutely slick last time I used it.


----------



## Reynard (26 Aug 2020)

12boy said:


> Grant Petersen at Rivendell discusses why lower end derailleurs, brake levers and shifters work as well as their more expensive brethren at just a little more weight and a lot less expense. Even lower grade derailleurs are better than high end ones in the past. You will have a bitchin machine when your done fer sure.



Unless you're a pro and are talking about marginal gains, what's a few grams here and there?

The frame is steel, so it's never going to be a lightweight, and I just want to fit it with decent, reliable components that don't throw the toys out of the pram if they go within 50 paces of a wet, muddy road. 

Although the seatpost, bars and chainset are being upgraded to alloy from the original steel. That will take close to a kilo off the bike, which is kind of more useful.

P.S. I did some serious air intake looking at prices of the higher end stuff...


----------



## Reynard (26 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Cool. After the flat bar/drop bar/flat bar faffing I did to the Scott roadie, including a short spell back at 8-speed, they've still got essentially new inners fitted. One less thing to buy!



Ah, brill. Then all I'll need is some outer.  I'm sure they sell it off a roll in the LBS...



DCBassman said:


> Truth. I'm using nothing above Alivio grade, and it all works far better than, say, 15 year old Sora stuff. In fact the 7-speed Altus stuff from 2001 was still absolutely slick last time I used it.



I've got Claris on the road bike and Altus on the hybrid. I've no experience of the considerably more poncy stuff, but there's nothing wrong with either of those.


----------



## 12boy (27 Aug 2020)

I buy Jagwire cable housing in 10 foot lengths and cut to suit. Eldest son asked what I wanted for Christmas and I said a Park cable and housing cutter and he got me one. I don't use it often but when I do, it makes me happy. A well made tool filling its purpose really well is a real pleasure.


----------



## DCBassman (27 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> I've got Claris on the road bike


Technically, the levers I'm sending you, St-R221L and 225R, are Claris STI IIRC


----------



## Reynard (31 Aug 2020)

Well, the bits I ordered from SJS turned up on Saturday, so I spent the morning tinkering.

The cassette has now been fitted onto the rear wheel, and the rear derailleur has been attached to its hanger, and thence onto the bike. Looking good.  Although I forgot to apply some grease to a couple of the screw threads, so I shall have to rectify that in the morning. Oops, my bad... 

Alas, even with the best will in the world, the 25.8 mm seatpost I ordered won't fit, so it's got to go back. It should have fitted, as I measured the inside of the seat tube with vernier calipers and bought the post as per advice here, but it won't even get past the clamp, even if I take the bolt out.  

Although I'm wondering if the clamp (the bit with the two eyes to take the bolt) isn't bent. With everything else that's been borked on the bike, it wouldn't surprise me. But I'm also entertaining the thought that the top of the seat tube may have been pinched to take the narrower post...

Otherwise it looks like I will have to go for a 25.4 mm and use the shim.


----------



## raleighnut (31 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Well, the bits I ordered from SJS turned up on Saturday, so I spent the morning tinkering.
> 
> The cassette has now been fitted onto the rear wheel, and the rear derailleur has been attached to its hanger, and thence onto the bike. Looking good.  Although I forgot to apply some grease to a couple of the screw threads, so I shall have to rectify that in the morning. Oops, my bad...
> 
> ...


You can get 25.6 mm seatposts.


----------



## Reynard (31 Aug 2020)

It was bugging me all afternoon (I was out, and you know how things just simmer in the back of your mind) so I went and had another look.

I opened out the top of the seatpost with a screwdriver - it *WAS* bent btw, and had another go. Got the post in no problem, but it only went in about two and a half inches or so before refusing to go any further, and I didn't want to force things and damage the post.

So stuck my fingers in, and found the answer. Namely the welding on the seat stays are causing an obstruction. Ergo, that explains the 25.4 mm post and the shim. It's something the calipers wouldn't have picked up when I measured the internal diameter of the seat tube, as they don't reach down that far.

I guess I'd be OK filing the weld back a little and trying again.


----------



## 12boy (1 Sep 2020)

I'd go with the shim. Removing part of a weld may not be wise.


----------



## Reynard (1 Sep 2020)

12boy said:


> I'd go with the shim. Removing part of a weld may not be wise.



I'd agree with you if I had to take a significant amount off - my background is strength of materials after all.  

But given the projected use, these frames are probably way over-engineered, incorporating a significant Factor of Safety. It's not just the absolute strength vs the applied load, but also the actual standard to which it has to be made as set down in statute.

In this case, the issue is where a small amount excess metal from the weld has run down the inside of the tube. And then of course the paint that has been applied to the inside of the frame has accumulated on that as well. Given the 25.4 mm post is rather loose in there, I only need to take off a fraction of the excess - it shouldn't have any effect on the structural integrity of the weld itself. Likely just taking the paint back down to bare metal should be enough. (Well, I hope...)


----------



## Gunk (1 Sep 2020)

Can you get in there with a Dremel?


----------



## raleighnut (1 Sep 2020)

Gunk said:


> Can you get in there with a Dremel?


A few strokes with a 'half round' or 'rat tail' file should be plenty to remove the slight 'bulge' sufficiently. Just make sure to give it a good smear of Vaseline to prevent corrosion afterwards DO NOT use grease, the soap in it will not protect the bare metal from rusting nor will it stop galvanic corrosion from 'sticking' the post whereas Petroleum Jelly does an excellent job.


----------



## Reynard (1 Sep 2020)

Gunk said:


> Can you get in there with a Dremel?



I would if I had one... 

I know I have drill bit attachments to do the same job, but can I find them? Like the heck...


----------



## Reynard (1 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> A few strokes with a 'half round' or 'rat tail' file should be plenty to remove the slight 'bulge' sufficiently. Just make sure to give it a good smear of Vaseline to prevent corrosion afterwards DO NOT use grease, the soap in it will not protect the bare metal from rusting nor will it stop galvanic corrosion from 'sticking' the post whereas Petroleum Jelly does an excellent job.



Already clued up with the Vaseline, as you mentioned it upthread. 

I managed to file some of it back this morning. But it's Law of Sod that the only files I have that fit inside the tube are just too fine to do any real good. Good for putting a smooth finish on something, but as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot when you need to take stuff back some.

Have managed to get the post in further, but I've now scratched it, so can't in good conscience return it.

Aaaargh!!!


----------



## 12boy (1 Sep 2020)

How much post do you need in the tube......most minimum insertion points I've seen are about 2 inches. If you don't want to shorten the post, files are still fairly cheap and you could get one with more robust teeth.


----------



## raleighnut (1 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> Already clued up with the Vaseline, as you mentioned it upthread.
> 
> I managed to file some of it back this morning. But it's Law of Sod that the only files I have that fit inside the tube are just too fine to do any real good. Good for putting a smooth finish on something, but as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot when you need to take stuff back some.
> 
> ...


You could polish the scratch out with a bit of Emery Paper*, might even help the post go in easier.

*120-180 grit should do.


----------



## 12boy (1 Sep 2020)

Wrapping cloth type sandpaper around a bit of dowel has worked for me before.


----------



## Reynard (1 Sep 2020)

12boy said:


> How much post do you need in the tube......most minimum insertion points I've seen are about 2 inches. If you don't want to shorten the post, files are still fairly cheap and you could get one with more robust teeth.



I'm not sure how much. Yet.

What I do know is that the post that came with the bike is marginal on the insertion. When it's at the right height for me, it's pretty well much at the limit, and as it's one of those straight ones with the old-style clamp, there isn't enough backwards saddle adjustment either. Hence the need for a longer post with a layback clamp.

I'm going to get me one of those files that you can use with a drill. One of the things I've been struggling with is the fact that I can't apply enough "welly" to the files I've been using. That's where you blokes have a big advantage over me.


----------



## Reynard (1 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> You could polish the scratch out with a bit of Emery Paper*, might even help the post go in easier.
> 
> *120-180 grit should do.



The scratches (now read plural) I've put into it won't polish out. Not without fubaring the finish.


----------



## raleighnut (1 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> The scratches (now read plural) I've put into it won't polish out. Not without fubaring the finish.


Did you go for black then ?


----------



## Reynard (1 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Did you go for black then ?



Yeah.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (2 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> I think I'd much rather lose two teeth on the biggest sprocket and get a more sensible progression right across the whole range. When it's really windy here, I tend to spend a fair bit of time on the middle ring (on the hybrid), so that's another factor I have to consider. It's not all about the biggest and smallest gears.



i don't like massive jumps between the cogs on my freewheels either. 4 tooth steps at the bottom reducing to 2 tooth steps in the high gears is user-friendly. 6 or 8 tooth jumps are not. It tends to result in more double-changes involving front & rear gears, because the ratio steps are enough to make a big difference to the required leg input torque, then if you add a bit of gradient or headwind into the mix, the increase in load after changing up one gear makes it unsustainable, so you end up changing again. The way I see it, if you need a massive low sprocket on the back, that's because you've got chainrings on the front that are too big. There's definitely no need to have super wide range freewheels when you're running a triple up front either. In fact you can run closer ratio freewheels and enjoy better incremental gear steps.
Personally, I've never seen any need for smaller than a 28T on the back and a smallest 28T chainring on the front, that gives you whatever your wheel size in gear inches as your lowest ratio, in my case 26" on MTB and 27" on hybrid.


----------



## DCBassman (2 Sep 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There's definitely no need to have super wide range freewheels when you're running a triple up front either. I


Come live in Devon...


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (2 Sep 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Come live in Devon...



I prefer Cornwall myself... That's not hilly either.


----------



## DCBassman (2 Sep 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I prefer Cornwall myself... That's not hilly either.


Camel Trail is the only flat bike ride, for sure!


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> i don't like massive jumps between the cogs on my freewheels either. 4 tooth steps at the bottom reducing to 2 tooth steps in the high gears is user-friendly. 6 or 8 tooth jumps are not. It tends to result in more double-changes involving front & rear gears, because the ratio steps are enough to make a big difference to the required leg input torque, then if you add a bit of gradient or headwind into the mix, the increase in load after changing up one gear makes it unsustainable, so you end up changing again. The way I see it, if you need a massive low sprocket on the back, that's because you've got chainrings on the front that are too big. There's definitely no need to have super wide range freewheels when you're running a triple up front either. In fact you can run closer ratio freewheels and enjoy better incremental gear steps.
> Personally, I've never seen any need for smaller than a 28T on the back and a smallest 28T chainring on the front, that gives you whatever your wheel size in gear inches as your lowest ratio, in my case 26" on MTB and 27" on hybrid.



Ah, but you keep forgetting that you have more than a foot in height on me, are close to double my weight and have far longer legs! You have the ability to put our far more "oooomph" than me, hence your choice in gearing. 

And hence my choice in gearing too. I've used my other bikes as a datum to select something that should be suitable. Oh, and there's the small matter of parts supply issues too.


----------



## Reynard (2 Sep 2020)

No work on the bike today, and won't be for a few days I wouldn't think, as I'm a bit pawly with sinusitis.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (2 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> Ah, but you keep forgetting that you have more than a foot in height on me, are close to double my weight and have far longer legs! You have the ability to put our far more "oooomph" than me, hence your choice in gearing.



No doubt I am a lot bigger and stronger than you, but that in itself means little in isolation, because my extra strength is used propelling my extra weight and aerodynamic drag around that you don't have to deal with. In terms of power to weight ratio, I wouldn't like to claim a big ugly bloke is necessarily guaranteed to be proportionally more powerful than a petite woman, if you were to go on watts power divided by bodyweight. Where I do think you probably have a disadvantage, is that if you need shorter cranks for either biomechanical or ground clearance reasons, the shorter levers mean your torque input at the pedal will be higher for a given output power, than someone like me who mainly has the standard default 170mm cranks - assuming the same mathematical gear ratios.


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> No doubt I am a lot bigger and stronger than you, but that in itself means little in isolation, because my extra strength is used propelling my extra weight and aerodynamic drag around that you don't have to deal with. In terms of power to weight ratio, I wouldn't like to claim a big ugly bloke is necessarily guaranteed to be proportionally more powerful than a petite woman, if you were to go on watts power divided by bodyweight. Where I do think you probably have a disadvantage, is that if you need shorter cranks for either biomechanical or ground clearance reasons, the shorter levers mean your torque input at the pedal will be higher for a given output power, than someone like me who mainly has the standard default 170mm cranks - assuming the same mathematical gear ratios.



This is the thing - there are just so many variables to take into account. Not just height and weight, but the ratio of arm, torso and leg length, fitness, whether you're built for endurance or not, whether you prefer to spin or grind, and indeed, crank length. I usually ride with 160 mm cranks btw.

Each cyclist is individual, but we've all heard of "give me a lever long enough and I'll move the world"


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

Feeling a tad less grotty today, so had a bit of a potter.

Am resorting to using the original bars for the moment, as the ones I want are out of stock. Anyway, they're the same width as the ones on the Chartres hybrid which is a big help for setting up the cockpit.

I've decided that I will probably swing for Ergon GP2 grips, so I measured how they "sit" on the bars of the Chartres and transferred those measurements across. Then I fitted the shifters - thanks @DCBassman they look really good. 

And like on the Chartres, once taking grips and shifters into account, there's not much bar real estate left for lights. I'll get a blinky on there, but not much else, as the cabling will be in the way. So will need to get a handlebar extender to mount the lights I usually use.

Was hoping to make a start on the cabling, but the cutters I have are as useful as the proverbial chocolate teapot. They're good for thinner wire, but not up to the task for this. I've had a look, and all the outer cable end / ferrule things are salvageable - they're metal and simply slide off. Had hoped that the gear cable outers could also be re-used, but they're full of dark brown muck, so into the bin they will go.

So am hoping to get to the LBS tomorrow, now that I have a definitive shopping list of the following:

Cable cutters
4ft of gear outer
4 anti-fray cable end doodads


----------



## Gunk (3 Sep 2020)

Did you manage to source shifters/levers? I have a spare set


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

Gunk said:


> Did you manage to source shifters/levers? I have a spare set



Yes I did, thanks.  All sorted on that front.


----------



## Salar (3 Sep 2020)

Missed this thread, thought it was about childrens bikes. 

Looks good @Reynard


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

Salar said:


> Missed this thread, thought it was about childrens bikes.
> 
> Looks good @Reynard



Technically speaking, you are entirely correct. 

Although by the time I've finished building this, it'll be a properly-specced rigid MTB that's just a little bit smaller than the ones you usually see.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (3 Sep 2020)

Salar said:


> Missed this thread, thought it was about childrens bikes.



It's certainly what you would call a junior size, and seems to entail more hassle than I would be really happy with sorting out various combinations of compatible parts. With big sized frames, you just assume anything you want to use on a project will fit, and it nearly always does. Your options are more limited the smaller you go, especially if you're like me and want to do things on the cheap.


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It's certainly what you would call a junior size, and seems to entail more hassle than I would be really happy with sorting out various combinations of compatible parts. With big sized frames, you just assume anything you want to use on a project will fit, and it nearly always does. Your options are more limited the smaller you go, especially if you're like me and want to do things on the cheap.



I'll agree with you about the hassle. It has been a right royal pain at times, because I really need to think about fit, clearances etc, but having trained as an engineer, I enjoy solving these kind of conundrums.

With things like wheels, tyres, mudguards and cranks, there *is* a lot less choice for smaller frames. I have the exact same problem with my road bike, which is a 38cm frame and runs on 650c wheels. Because of that, it has pushed the budget up, but it can't be helped. That's the downside of being undertall, unfortunately. 

Having said that, I'll still end up with a far better bike, and one that's much nicer to ride, than anything that's available new at that price point.


----------



## Salar (3 Sep 2020)

And when you've finished this one you can move onto rebuilding a Raleigh Twenty and an RSW16 
(They are quite straightforward to do, but prices these days are ridiculous, wish I'd kept mine)


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

Salar said:


> And when you've finished this one you can move onto rebuilding a Raleigh Twenty and an RSW16
> (They are quite straightforward to do, but prices these days are ridiculous, wish I'd kept mine)



I think i'll get shot if I acquire yet another bike. Well, for the moment, anyway.  Actually, I learnt to ride on shoppers and took my cycling proficiency on one in about 1985-ish.

Wish I'd hung onto mine now too, but at the time, I needed the space more than I needed the bikes. But when I've done this, there's a late 50s / early 60s Hercules junior bike up on the loft that needs some TLC. Well, actually, to be honest, it needs a complete strip and rebuild. It's a little too small for me now, but I rode it for a couple of years in my early teens, and I kind of hung onto it for sentimental reasons.

That's going to be fun - it's a rod-braked roadster in miniature.


----------



## DCBassman (3 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> 4 anti-fray cable end doodads


Crimps! Because...you crimp 'em on!


----------



## Reynard (3 Sep 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Crimps! Because...you crimp 'em on!



Hmmm, crimping is what you do to pastry when making pasties and pies.  And those wee things aren't exactly edible...


----------



## Reynard (4 Sep 2020)

Did manage to pop over to my LBS for the bits on the aforementioned shopping list. All except for the cable cutters - he had none in stock of any flavour. Actually, he's out of stock on a lot of basic tools - sign of the times, I suppose.

So I winkled out the cutters I keep to do curtain wires. They live in my cat show bag, because invariably either I, or more usually someone else, needs a bit of fettling done to their pen drapes, and I'm well known at shows for carrying a basic toolkit and things like zip ties, pins, needle & thread...  They did an OK job on the inners and just about coped with the brake outers. Well, they coped under protest - that is, if cutters can protest.  Gear outers though, forget it...

Hence today's task, by default, was sorting out the brake cables.

Never having done a complete set of cables before, there was a certain amount of one step forward, two steps sideways. It's not the task itself. That was incredibly straightforward, even the internally-routed rear brake cable. It's the actual *order* in which you have to do things. And that knowledge only comes with experience. 

Anyways, both front and rear brakes have been cabled, although I haven't cut the inner brake cables to the exact length just yet as I still need to do a bit of tweaking. One brake is a bit "grumbly" (something is rubbing somewhere or not seated correctly) and the other is a bit too slack. The new alloy hangers I got from SJS do look good however, although I had to turn the bolt around in the front one as the domed nut was fouling the frame.

One thing I'm quite impressed with is how well my brake pad alignment - which I did by eye the other week - has panned out. I don't really need to do any major changes there. 

I'll post some photos tomorrow, as I've done a fair bit since I put some up last.

As an aside though, can anyone recommend some decent cable cutters that won't break the bank?


----------



## Gunk (4 Sep 2020)

These are great for the price

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174266984007


----------



## Jenkins (4 Sep 2020)

Simlar cutters available from Chain Reaction and Planet X for around £15 plus P&P or from Decathlon at £13 and showing as in stock in Cambridge if you're in town
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/cable-cutting-pliers-id_8352340.html


----------



## Reynard (4 Sep 2020)

Thanks gentlemen 

I will probably swing for those CRC ones. Will be putting in an order there over the weekend for a few bits anyways and can tag them onto it. Saves the faffage.


----------



## raleighnut (5 Sep 2020)

TBH most 'cutters' are up to the job, the trick is NOT to use them for owt else.


----------



## Gravity Aided (5 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> Thanks gentlemen
> 
> I will probably swing for those CRC ones. Will be putting in an order there over the weekend for a few bits anyways and can tag them onto it. Saves the faffage.


If they stop cutting cleanly, tighten that nut that holds the arms of the cutters together, as it does tend to work loose.


----------



## Reynard (5 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> TBH most 'cutters' are up to the job, the trick is NOT to use them for owt else.



A bit like me keeping a well-seasoned cast iron frying pan solely to do pancakes.  Point well noted.


----------



## Reynard (7 Sep 2020)

Front and rear brakes are now cabled and tweaked to my satisfaction. Although I suspect a little more tweakage may probably be necessary once I actually ride the bike.

In the end, I had to turn the nut & bolt round on both hangers due to clearance issues. I also worked out the cause of the "grumble" on the front brake cable. That was down to the new outer being about 10mm too long, and therefore it wasn't seating properly in the stem-mounted guide when the brake levers weren't under load. Pull the brake levers back towards the bars and the thing would seat itself correctly. Easily solved, though.

The cantilever brakes actually feel pretty decent, a world apart from the weird sponginess and the "brake lag" I experienced on that test ride. The biggest difference is down to now having proper levers rather than those plastic covered wire jobbies, followed by new brake blocks. I fitted Clarks ones, so not too shabby.

And am I odd to have snipped off the old cable ends on the brake straddle cables and replace them with new ones so that all the ones on the bike will match?


----------



## DCBassman (7 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> And am I odd to have snipped off the old cable ends on the brake straddle cables and replace them with new ones so that all the ones on the bike will match?


No!


----------



## Reynard (7 Sep 2020)

DCBassman said:


> No!



*phew*

Cos the ones I bought from my LBS are sooooooooo shiny!


----------



## DCBassman (7 Sep 2020)

Òooòh...shiny!


----------



## Reynard (10 Sep 2020)

Things are back in stock chez CRC. So today's purchases equates to Ergon GP2 grips (standard, small) and a pair of proper cable cutters.

So the current budget (sans tools) stands at £176 plus the following:

4ft of gear outers plus assorted gubbins - £9
Ergon GP2 grips - £35

So the new running total is £220

I gave in with the Ergon grips, as I have them on the hybrid and really like them. The grips I salvaged off the bike, once parted from their shifters, were simply far too small to be comfortable, and the combo of ordinary lock on grips and bar ends ended up not being that much cheaper than the Ergons.

An Idea I've been toying with is doing up the Emmelle over the winter. As a bike, it is now totally surplus to requirement; right now it's a sorry-looking frame and a pile of cannibalized parts. There is nothing inherently wrong with the bike beyond the battered paint job and a crotchety FD. Some of the bits I've taken off the Raleigh will be a nice upgrade, and it will make a nice town hack for a rider couple of inches taller than me. The bike owes me nothing as I rode it for many years despite it being the wrong size, and if I can recoup some of the cost of revamping the Raleigh, then why not...


----------



## Reynard (14 Sep 2020)

The bits I ordered from CRC turned up on Saturday.

So yesterday I sorted the grips. Ergons are ridiculously easy to put on and sort. They've had an upgrade recently (compared to the somewhat older ones on the hybrid), as they now have markings on the underside to help you set the angle of the integrated bar ends. And I got the placement of the shifter pods almost spot on after moving the measurements across from the Chartres.

And armed with a decent set of cable cutters, today's task was finishing the cabling on the bike. Discovered that if one isn't careful, gear inners have a horrible tendency to fray when trying to thread them through small holes. Ergo it is much better to cut the outers with a length of wire inside them in order to keep the cut "clean". A spool of craft wire was just the ticket for this, as it is the same thickness as the gear inner, but not braided.

Did the front derailleur first. Turned out to be pretty straightforward. Even better, the original Suntour FD fitted to the bike works perfectly. The shifts are nice and clean, and take place with a very satisfying click.  Of course, I've had to guesstimate the placing of the FD clamp on the seat tube as I've yet to order the crankset, but still... 

Rear derailleur was a little bit more fiddly, but still easy enough to do. I can't get shifting across the full range yet without the cable losing tension. But it's no point worrying about it, as I can't really finish sorting that until I've got the crankset and chain on anyway.

And as a result of the further fettling that will definitely be required in this department, I have left the gear inners untrimmed. They are capped with some insulating tape to stop them fraying in the mean time. I don't want to cut them to the right length until I'm absolutely sure I've got the shifting sorted.

I've pretty well much decided to go for this crankset from Spa, as it seems to be excellent bang-for-buck and comes with 160mm cranks: https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m8b0s109p2000/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset

Oh, and threading inner cables into the outers is like just trying to shove cooked spaghetti up a cat's bottom...


----------



## All uphill (14 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> The bits I ordered from CRC turned up on Saturday.
> 
> So yesterday I sorted the grips. Ergons are ridiculously easy to put on and sort. They've had an upgrade recently (compared to the somewhat older ones on the hybrid), as they now have markings on the underside to help you set the angle of the integrated bar ends. And I got the placement of the shifter pods almost spot on after moving the measurements across from the Chartres.
> 
> ...


I have those cranks (but 170mm) on two bikes which have done around 3000 miles each. They look good and do the job.😁


----------



## Reynard (14 Sep 2020)

All uphill said:


> I have those cranks (but 170mm) on two bikes which have done around 3000 miles each. They look good and do the job.😁



Ah, that's good to know  A couple of other bods on here recommended them as well.

There's not a great deal of choice when it comes to the combo of short cranks and a decent number of teeth...


----------



## raleighnut (15 Sep 2020)

They're on offer too now.


----------



## Reynard (15 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> They're on offer too now.



So I noticed...


----------



## 12boy (15 Sep 2020)

I've never tried to shove wet spaghetti up anything or anyone's bottom, nor would I enjoy the process myself, but I've also found running brake or derailleur cable through housing to be fairly easy if the cable is new or unfrayed. I merely run a small nail, a bit of stiff wire or even a dental pick into the housing and wiggle it a bit so as to free the opening. I have heard the metal caps put on housing called ferrules or housing caps, but whatever they are I put the cable through the ferrules before jamming it on the housing. It is easy to fray the cable if you push it through the cable housing and the ferrule when exiting the housing if you don't do the ferrule separately . In days of yore the cable ends were silver soldered so they could not fray. I bought an 82 Holdsworth at an estate sale a couple of years ago and the cables were neatly soldered. Very nice and no need to pull the cable ends off when messing with the cables.


----------



## DCBassman (15 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> Oh, and threading inner cables into the outers is like just trying to shove cooked spaghetti up a cat's bottom...


Oh, really?


----------



## Reynard (15 Sep 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Oh, really?



It's actually a quote from "Vulcan 607" by Rowland White, describing mid-air refuelling. Probe, basket, wiggly...  And for some reason, it makes me dissolve into an irrational fit of giggles every time I read it. 

On a more serious note, there *is* a knack to getting the inner cable into the outers. One more thing one learns by doing. 

Anyways, the crankset has been ordered from Spa. The last piece in the jigsaw puzzle, but by no means the last headache. I'm still expecting a few "aaaargh" moments before I have a rideable bike.


----------



## 12boy (15 Sep 2020)

Alas, l see great loss and malaise in your future. This will begin when you no longer have this project to fill your idle hours. Of course, riding it will provide a different kind of pleasure, but the god-given joy of working on something you don't know how to do yet, succeeding to meet (well, almost meeting) your budgetary limits and puzzling over each problem in turn is addictive.


----------



## Reynard (15 Sep 2020)

12boy said:


> Alas, l see great loss and malaise in your future. This will begin when you no longer have this project to fill your idle hours. Of course, riding it will provide a different kind of pleasure, but the god-given joy of working on something you don't know how to do yet, succeding to meet (well, almost meeting) your budgetary limits and puzzling over each problem in turn is addictive.



Hmm... I have the Emmelle which I'm going to do up and move on, plus I have a vintage junior bike (cottered cranks, rod brakes) that could do with some TLC to stop it from deteriorating. So I'm sorted on the future project front.  

Budget. Err, that sort of went west. A bit. 

But on the plus side, I'll have built something that I actually want to ride, rather than what the bike manufacturers think I want to ride.


----------



## Reynard (21 Sep 2020)

Anyways, I've fitted the chainrings and cranks to the bike. They really do look good - even Spa's budget range is far nicer than I'd have otherwise got for the same price. 

Although I've now hit the expected snags as I work through these final stages.  So near and yet so far...

One, I'm struggling to align the front derailleur to my satisfaction, and two, there is not a lot of clearance between the smallest sprocket on the cassette and the frame. Some thinking (and reading) time required here.

I will take some photos later and see what the CC hive mind suggests...

To avoid finishing my tinker time on a frustrating note, I used Sheldon's method to get the right chain length though, although to be fair, it's actually ridiculously logical if you think about it. And I also employed a hack I spotted here on CC to use a short length wire with hooks bent into the ends to keep the chain in place. Without that bit a wire, a bicycle chain is a wiggly b*gger with a mind of its own.

Haven't fitted the chain yet, as I need to get those snags sorted first.


----------



## 12boy (21 Sep 2020)

I've wondered how things were going and missed your reports. At this point all 6 of my primary riders are pretty much dialed in, although I do change drive trains from single to IGH to derailleurs and back on some for a little change of pace. So I vicariously enjoy your project very much.


----------



## Reynard (21 Sep 2020)

Thanks @12boy  Waiting for parts has also added to the slow updates.

Well, I've finally worked out why I can't adjust the FD... The problem has been that the back of the FD cage keeps clashing on the teeth of the outer ring when the height is set right, but when I solve the clash issue, the cage sits far too high to do any good.

If I read what Sheldon says correctly, the cage of the FD is too small for the chainrings that I've fitted. It's exactly the *aaaargh* that he describes for a chainring / cage curvature mismatch. Which makes sense, given I've gone from a 42 big ring to a 48...

So it looks like I'll have to replace the FD after all...


----------



## Gunk (21 Sep 2020)

Luckily they’re not expensive


----------



## Reynard (21 Sep 2020)

No, true... But there's then the pitfall of finding the right one.

Shame really, as the original FD works perfectly well otherwise. Was taking it as a given that sorting the drivetrain is where I'd fall flat on my face...


----------



## raleighnut (21 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> No, true... But there's then the pitfall of finding the right one.
> 
> Shame really, as the original FD works perfectly well otherwise. Was taking it as a given that sorting the drivetrain is where I'd fall flat on my face...


Which cog is it clashing on, the middle one.It shouldn't go far enough to clash on the outer 'big' ring as shifting there will hoook the chain off


----------



## Reynard (21 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Which cog is it clashing on, the middle one.It shouldn't go far enough to clash on the outer 'big' ring as shifting there will hoook the chain off



The problem is the cage curvature itself, not the amount it's swinging across when shifting. 

I've got the alignment from above spot on if I compare it to the set-up on my hybrid - which uses the Shimano version of the same triple. The problem comes when I try to set the height for the clamp on the seat tube. The cage curves more than the big ring does, ergo the back of the FD smacks into the inside of the big ring when the front of it is set at the right height.

Basically, I've got a pint pot cage and a quart-sized big ring.


----------



## raleighnut (21 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> The problem is the cage curvature itself, not the amount it's swinging across when shifting.
> 
> I've got the alignment from above spot on if I compare it to the set-up on my hybrid - which uses the Shimano version of the same triple. The problem comes when I try to set the height for the clamp on the seat tube. The cage curves more than the big ring does, ergo the back of the FD smacks into the inside of the big ring when the front of it is set at the right height.
> 
> Basically, I've got a pint pot cage and a quart-sized big ring.


Ah I see. Bummer


----------



## Reynard (21 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Ah I see. Bummer



Bummer indeed...

The first couple of times I thought maybe I hadn't got it right as it's not something I've ever done before, but after another try, it was like no, something's definitely not right here.

I've found Sheldon *SO* useful.


----------



## DCBassman (22 Sep 2020)

I have a tatty but functional Shimano FD-M191. Came off a Norco hybrid with the standard 48 etc chainrings. I'll post it out if you can use it.


----------



## Reynard (22 Sep 2020)

DCBassman said:


> I have a tatty but functional Shimano FD-M191. Came off a Norco hybrid with the standard 48 etc chainrings. I'll post it out if you can use it.



Cheers, will PM you


----------



## Reynard (28 Sep 2020)

Well, the derailleur arrived at lunchtime. Thanks @DCBassman 

Wednesday is looking like something of a washout in this neck of the woods, so what better to do than sequester one's self in the garage and tinker? 

Once I get the FD sorted out, then I'm on the finishing straight. The only thing that's causing a little bit of concern is that there is very little clearance between the frame and the smallest sprocket on the cassette. (Yes, it's been correctly installed.)

A bit of checking with the old chain seems to indicate that I may well have fouling issues when the chain is on the smallest sprocket, although until I get the drivetrain assembled, I can't say for certain. Would sticking a couple of washers in to act as spacers between the lockring and the dropouts be an acceptable solution?


----------



## 12boy (29 Sep 2020)

See how it goes without the washers would be my option. If I did need them I might take one off the left side, if there is that option , so as to make the wheel go in the dropouts a bit easier. Been wondering how it's been going.


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2020)

Hmm, I didn't actually look to see if there were any spacers I could take out from the non-drive side... 

Another, more permanent option, is to wind out the dropouts another couple of mm. But that is really the last resort. Otherwise I can always just run it as a 7-speed - to be fair, I don't often use the 11-tooth sprocket on my other bikes.


----------



## raleighnut (29 Sep 2020)

Reynard said:


> Hmm, I didn't actually look to see if there were any spacers I could take out from the non-drive side...
> 
> Another, more permanent option, is to wind out the dropouts another couple of mm. But that is really the last resort. Otherwise I can always just run it as a 7-speed - to be fair, I don't often use the 11-tooth sprocket on my other bikes.


If you've got QR wheels there needs to be enough 'stub' of the axle in the dropouts to locate the wheel, all the skewer does is keep the wheel secure, you may be able to use a washer and in fact you may need a washer if the dropouts are too thin and too much axle sticks out the other side. I've had this happen but I got around it by leaving the springs off as there is a little recess the spring sits in that gave enough clearance for the mil or so the axle stuck out by.


----------



## Reynard (29 Sep 2020)

raleighnut said:


> If you've got QR wheels there needs to be enough 'stub' of the axle in the dropouts to locate the wheel, all the skewer does is keep the wheel secure, you may be able to use a washer and in fact you may need a washer if the dropouts are too thin and too much axle sticks out the other side. I've had this happen but I got around it by leaving the springs off as there is a little recess the spring sits in that gave enough clearance for the mil or so the axle stuck out by.



Yes, I have QR wheels, and yes, there are a couple of mm of axle sticking out of the nut. So looks like I should be able to go down the washer route. 

Now to go through the big jars of washers in the garage to find something suitable...


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2020)

Well the rain this afternoon lasted for far longer than anticipated and thus kiboshed any chance of a bike ride - I don't mind cold, but cold and wet is most definitely not my idea of fun. So I've been holed out in the garage doling out some much-needed TLC to the FD that @DCBassman sent me.

Still a ways to go with it, but it is a hell of a lot cleaner and far less rusty than when it arrived here chez Casa Reynard. The combo of Barkeep's Friend, wet & dry paper and WD40 is beginning to bring it up a treat. 

I'm leaving it marinating in a good coat of WD40 overnight, and then I'll have another session tomorrow.

There are subtle but noticeable differences to the profile of the cage of this one when compared to the bike's original Suntour, so fingers crossed it will solve the clash issues I was having.


----------



## DCBassman (1 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> Well the rain this afternoon lasted for far longer than anticipated and thus kiboshed any chance of a bike ride - I don't mind cold, but cold and wet is most definitely not my idea of fun. So I've been holed out in the garage doling out some much-needed TLC to the FD that @DCBassman sent me.
> 
> Still a ways to go with it, but it is a hell of a lot cleaner and far less rusty than when it arrived here chez Casa Reynard. The combo of Barkeep's Friend, wet & dry paper and WD40 is beginning to bring it up a treat.
> 
> ...


Apologies for the condition, it was simply a strip and store spare part!


----------



## Reynard (1 Oct 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Apologies for the condition, it was simply a strip and store spare part!



Hey, no worries!  It's nowt a bit of time and a bit of elbow grease can't solve.


----------



## Reynard (6 Oct 2020)

Well, I must say that the FD cleaned up very nicely in the end. The dirt and most of the rust was merely superficial. The odd patch went deeper into the metal - managed to get it all off though, but there's nothing much I can do about the resultant pitting. The mechanism was also a bit gummed up, but again, nothing a good dousing in WD40 couldn't solve.

Even so, it's at times like these I'm glad I've got small fingers, as it's far easier to get into those awkward spaces. 

And speaking of spaces, I found a washer that fit nicely onto the axle to sort the chain clearance issue between the smallest sprocket and the frame. It's lovely when you find a simple solution to a problem. Though when I sort out a bar bag for this bike, I'm going to stick a spare washer in there, because knowing me, I'll lose the one that's on there if I have to do a roadside repair... 

Fitting the FD wasn't without its issues though. 

Firstly, the metal spacers on the clamp wouldn't stay put. You really need three hands for this, but as I don't have three hands, it was double-sided sticky tape to the rescue! 

Next, the clamp, even with the spacers, was just that little bit too big. Another easy fix with the classic cyclist's botch of a length of old inner tube and some electrical tape. Although it was fun trying to figure out just the right amount of inner tube to get a tight fit while still being able to close the clamp and bolt it...

Then there was the moment of realisation that the clamp needed to go a hell of a lot lower on the seat tube than the original, because the mechanism worked the opposite way. So the tape marks I'd made for reference were entirely useless.  Without that to help me, I had to work it out completely from scratch - a task that wasn't helped by a few other factors.

One was the gummy mechanism, which meant that the cage wasn't moving through its full range, and two, I had a blonde moment and hadn't fed the cable in right...  The first was solved by a judiciously-applied knee to the top of the derailleur while I attended to the second.

That should have been OK, but I was getting fouling issues on the big ring when I fed a length of chain on. Given that the FD had come off a bike with the same chainrings and BB spindle length, it had to be something *else* which was causing the problem. So if the cage was at its maximum throw and I couldn't move it outwards any further, then something had to come inwards to make up the shortfall. In this case, the chainrings themselves. Tightening the crank bolt on the drive side from very tight to "can't physically turn the spanner any further" tight thankfully gave me the extra couple of mm that I needed. I also tightened the non-drive side bolt.

Am really pleased how that's worked out.  Thanks once again @DCBassman 

Although with this bike build, things haven't been straightforward, and I've learnt to expect the odd hiccup. I had no problems with the mudguard fit with the original FD, but as the new one sits so much lower (a good three inches or so) the cage now touches the mudguard when it's over the smallest ring. Mind, that's easily solved - all I need to do is pare down the guard a bit on that side. They're a very cheap set from Wilkinsons, so I don't mind taking a craft knife to them.

Once I've fettled the rear mudguard, then I can finally get the chain on and sort the rear gears. But all that is for another day...


----------



## Reynard (7 Oct 2020)

Did the rear mudguard today. In the end, I decided not to botch it by paring down the side, because the amount I'd have to take off meant that water and mud would spray all over the drivetrain - which kind of defeats the principle really.

So...

I cut off the flimsy plastic clip that holds the guard onto the seat tube and filed the bottom to a neat finish before drilling a hole along the centerline and about 3mm up from the re-profiled bottom edge. The next stage was to undo the bolt on the brake bridge and move the mudguard clip from the front to the back. This meant that the hole I'd drilled into the guard met up (more or less) with the hole on the chainstay bridge that's there for the purpose of mudguard fitting.

Finding a bolt to fit wasn't quite so straightforward, as most of the assorted ones I had were just that fraction too wide to go through the hole on the chainstay bridge. But then I thought to look through the box of junked bits I'd taken off the bike to see if there was something in there, and found that the retaining bolts for the old plastic brake levers were a perfect fit! Bonus!

Thus on went the bolt, a couple of washers, a dab of grease and then the nut before all was done up nice and tight. Not quite perfect, as the bolt was about 5mm too long for the job in hand, so out came the hacksaw to cut it down to size. A few goes with a file to smooth off the end, and the job's a good 'un. 

The upside from not doing a botch job is that the guard is now nice and secure. It's not wonky, it doesn't rattle, no longer fouls the front derailleur and is now low enough on the frame to keep the worst of the crud away from where you don't want it to go. The downside is that there is now less clearance between wheel and guard than originally, but I can't see it being an issue.

Really pleased with how it's come out. I think that was an hour well-spent.


----------



## 12boy (7 Oct 2020)

For some reason I wasn't alerted to new posts on the thread and was just about to ask you when you would quit lollygagging, get off your butt and do some work. Sounds like you have already. Be sure to send us some pics when it's done which should be soon.


----------



## Reynard (7 Oct 2020)

12boy said:


> For some reason I wasn't alerted to new posts on the thread and was just about to ask you when you would quit lollygagging, get off your butt and do some work. Sounds like you have already. Be sure to send us some pics when it's done which should be soon.



Lollygagging? Oh my... 

I'll get some pics done - just need some decent daylight in which to do them.

Not much left to do, really. The last job is to put the chain on and sort the rear gears, but this last job is the fiddliest one of the whole build. I've never done this before, so I'm not expecting things to go smoothly. I also need to work out why the blazes the cable won't stay put in the RD pinch bolt - it keeps pulling out.

Weather's not looking so good for the next couple of days, so an excuse to go to the garage and try to get it sorted.


----------



## wafter (7 Oct 2020)

Nice work and an epic thread - looking forward to seeing the finished article!


----------



## Gunk (7 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> I also need to work out why the blazes the cable won't stay put in the RD



It might need wrapping around the bolt


----------



## Reynard (7 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> It might need wrapping around the bolt



Ah, thanks. I'll try that. 

One thing I've definitely learnt on this project (it's reared its head more than once!) is that just because things fit together in a particular way on one bike doesn't necessarily mean that they do on another.


----------



## raleighnut (8 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> It might need wrapping around the bolt


I've never done that or seen it done, sounds like a bodge to me.

@Reynard there will be a groove that the cable lies in normally on both the mech and the funny washer-y doodad on the bolt, the cable goes through there. If you 'wrap' it round the bolt you'll never manage to adjust it.


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> @Reynard there will be a groove that the cable lies in normally on both the mech and the funny washer-y doodad on the bolt, the cable goes through there. If you 'wrap' it round the bolt you'll never manage to adjust it.



Yeah, I know about the groove. But I had another look this morning, and it seems like the washer-y doodad was put on the wrong way round, which is why it wouldn't grip the cable. Have rotated it through 180 degrees with a pair of pliers, and matters seem to be much improved. Still need to tweak the tension though.

I think what @Gunk means about wrapping the cable around the bolt is to have the cable in a u-shape around the bolt to maximize the surface area that's under the washer, rather than just have the cable in straight...


----------



## raleighnut (8 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> Yeah, I know about the groove. But I had another look this morning, and it seems like the washer-y doodad was put on the wrong way round, which is why it wouldn't grip the cable. Have rotated it through 180 degrees with a pair of pliers, and matters seem to be much improved. Still need to tweak the tension though.
> 
> I think what @Gunk means about wrapping the cable around the bolt is to have the cable in a u-shape around the bolt to maximize the surface area that's under the washer, rather than just have the cable in straight...


Often the washer doodad has a little square tang to stop it turning as the bolt is tightened, this faces to the rear alongside the cable entry.


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Often the washer doodad has a little square tang to stop it turning as the bolt is tightened, this faces to the rear alongside the cable entry.



Yes, it does. But as it was put on the wrong way round, it kept turning and ergo the cable kept slipping.


----------



## raleighnut (8 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> Yes, it does. But as it was put on the wrong way round, it kept turning and ergo the cable kept slipping.


Aye that'd make tightening a pain.


----------



## 12boy (8 Oct 2020)

I take it washer doodad is the technical term? BTW, many derailleurs or their shifters have a threaded thingummy ( the technical term) to adjust the tension without readjusting the odious washer doodad.


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2020)

12boy said:


> I take it washer doodad is the technical term? BTW, many derailleurs or their shifters have a threaded thingummy ( the technical term) to adjust the tension without readjusting the odious washer doodad.



Yeah, washer doodad is very definitely a technical term. 

The derailleur I've fitted does indeed have a barrel adjuster aka the threaded thingummy, so once I've got the cable sorted, I can use that to tweak the tension. 

That's on the agenda for later, but first I have to go pot up three walnut saplings that have been sat in a bucket of water overnight.


----------



## DCLane (8 Oct 2020)

Can't you just get on with it? This project seems to have been going on for months  *

* Given I've got a Dawes Kingpin that's been as a frame since April and sat un-built for two months after a re-spray I can't really comment


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2020)

DCLane said:


> Can't you just get on with it? This project seems to have been going on for months  *
> 
> * Given I've got a Dawes Kingpin that's been as a frame since April and sat un-built for two months after a re-spray I can't really comment



Beginning of July 

Although after this afternoon's tinkering, it's *almost* rideable...


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2020)

Managed to solve the cable slippage through the pinch bolt using @Gunk 's tip.  Although part of the problem was that the cable had become so chewed, that it just wasn't staying put. 

So I stripped out the rear gear cable from the Emmelle and used that one instead. It's a new cable btw, because I'd fitted it just before I stopped riding that bike to try and solve shifting issues. Although that's got friction thumb shifters, so a totally different kettle of fish...

The chewed cable isn't wasted - it can be cut down and used on the front of the Emmelle when I start working on getting that back to a rideable state prior to moving it on.

Still need to work out where the tension on the RD cable really needs to be, but I can't quite finish that off until I'd got the chain on. So on went the chain without any problems (gawd, that's a wiggly, slippery thing to manhandle, but thank goodness for zip ties!), although my hands were too sore from sorting the cable to lock out the quick link completely. I will revisit that in the morning; there's a good hack with rear brake and drive side pedal, but for that, I need to fit the pedals... 

The real bonus though, is that the chain runs nice and smoothly on the big ring - small sprocket combo. There's no fouling on the FD cage and there's enough clearance between chain and frame thanks to that judiciously-placed washer. One happy Reynard. 

Even better, the bars and seatpost I want are now back in stock at SJS, so I'll be flashing the plastic later. I'm going for a 25.4mm post in the same brand. Given that the previous one came out as a bit oversize when measured, I'm working on the premise that I'll get a good fit this time.


----------



## Gunk (8 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> I've never done that or seen it done, sounds like a bodge to me



Some are designed for the cable to be pulled 180 degrees around the bolt.


----------



## raleighnut (8 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> Some are designed for the cable to be pulled 180 degrees around the bolt.


Like I said I've never seen that, early Campagnolo* perhaps ?
I know the couple of 10 speed 105 mechs I've got on 2 of my bikes have 'alternative' cable routing on the bolt but that's just to change the 'pull ratio' so they work with different rear cassettes/shifters.

* sounds about 'agricultural' enough for them


----------



## Gunk (8 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Like I said I've never seen that, early Campagnolo* perhaps ?



Very good! 1960’s Gran Sport Rear mech has that set up


----------



## Reynard (8 Oct 2020)

Can I pick your brains, gentlemen?

The seatpost bolt is rather rusty / tatty, and it's not cleaned up very well despite my best efforts. It's serviceable, but I'd much rather swap it for one that can be done up with an allen key as opposed to a spanner, as it rather simplifies the on-bike tool kit.

SJS has a whole raft of these, in a fair range of sizes, but I'm not sure how I go about picking the right one. Is it just a straight swap for bolt length and diameter? Or do I have to take other factors into account?


----------



## raleighnut (8 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> Can I pick your brains, gentlemen?
> 
> The seatpost bolt is rather rusty / tatty, and it's not cleaned up very well despite my best efforts. It's serviceable, but I'd much rather swap it for one that can be done up with an allen key as opposed to a spanner, as it rather simplifies the on-bike tool kit.
> 
> SJS has a whole raft of these, in a fair range of sizes, but I'm not sure how I go about picking the right one. Is it just a straight swap for bolt length and diameter? Or do I have to take other factors into account?


As long as there's a 'keyway' to accept the tang on the 'female' part of the bolt they'll fit well, as for length you need to measure across the 2 outer faces of the clamp then take a couple of mil off or what can happen is the 2 halves will bottom out before sufficient pressure is applied. Better to be too short than that happen.


----------



## Gunk (8 Oct 2020)

I’m sure from memory you want about a 22mm bolt


----------



## 12boy (9 Oct 2020)

Could you go to the LBS and try some different sizes? I've had bikes with malformed seat tubes due to someone overtightening the bolt. Found shims work very well.... l use one as long as the part of the seatpost that actually grips the post.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

12boy said:


> Could you go to the LBS and try some different sizes? I've had bikes with malformed seat tubes due to someone overtightening the bolt. Found shims work very well.... l use one as long as the part of the seatpost that actually grips the post.



Good idea if the LBS stocked the size(s) I need, but alas they don't. I asked last time I was in there.  Hence the pot-luckery via internet purchase...


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

This morning's successes: I have closed the quick link on the chain using a hack I found online*, the FD works well and I now have most of the gears on the rear.

This morning's failure: Can't get the biggest three sprockets for some reason and need to work out why. I'm thinking limit screw may be part of it, as that's the only thing I haven't touched...

* Hold wheel with one hand drive side crank in the other, and with the link above the chainstay, pull in opposite directions. Result!


----------



## 12boy (9 Oct 2020)

Being a weakling and an all around lilyhander when I got a 10 speed chain for my Brompton I found the quicklink pretty tough and bought a Park quicklink pliers for ease in removing and closing quicklinks. Like my Park cable/cablehousing cutter, it isn't often used, but it sure works well when needed. Maybe since you have been so good on this project Santy Claus will bring you one or both of these nifty buggers. You deserve it.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

12boy said:


> Being a weakling and an all around lilyhander when I got a 10 speed chain for my Brompton I found the quicklink pretty tough and bought a Park quicklink pliers for ease in removing and closing quicklinks. Like my Park cable/cablehousing cutter, it isn't often used, but it sure works well when needed. Maybe since you have been so good on this project Santy Claus will bring you one or both of these nifty buggers. You deserve it.



I know Santa Claus is probably going to bring me a work stand, because the parental unit asked me how much one cost.  Whether he'll bring any other bike-related gubbins, I've no idea.


----------



## Milkfloat (9 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> I know Santa Claus is probably going to bring me a work stand, because the parental unit asked me how much one cost.  Whether he'll bring any other bike-related gubbins, I've no idea.


If he is quarantining in every country he visits he might not get here until 2022.


----------



## raleighnut (9 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> This morning's failure: Can't get the biggest three sprockets for some reason and need to work out why. I'm thinking limit screw may be part of it, as that's the only thing I haven't touched


It could be the 'L' screw needs loosening a bit, the way to tell is if the cable goes really tight but the mech doesn't move.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> It could be the 'L' screw needs loosening a bit, the way to tell is if the cable goes really tight but the mech doesn't move.



That's pretty well much what it was, as the limit screws were the only things I hadn't touched. 

I can now get all 8 sprockets on the middle ring.  Not tried the granny ring yet. On the big ring, I can get seven out of the eight without any tantrums - it *REALLY* doesn't like the big-big combo due to the chain angle, but no huhu, because it's not a gear I'd ride anyway.

Am struggling with the indexing, as there's always *one* sticky sprocket no matter what I try.

Will give it a break and return to it rested.


----------



## 12boy (9 Oct 2020)

You could try using the friction option if the shifters provide that. If that works then it could be an indexing problem.


----------



## raleighnut (9 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> That's pretty well much what it was, as the limit screws were the only things I hadn't touched.
> 
> I can now get all 8 sprockets on the middle ring.  Not tried the granny ring yet. On the big ring, I can get seven out of the eight without any tantrums - it *REALLY* doesn't like the big-big combo due to the chain angle, but no huhu, because it's not a gear I'd ride anyway.
> 
> ...


Don' fret too much, the indexing will need adjusting once everything settles down into its new location.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Don' fret too much, the indexing will need adjusting once everything settles down into its new location.



It's just frustrating. I almost had it. Changing from small to big worked fine, but changing back down again, the shift from #5 to #6 just wasn't happening. Fiddled with the tension, and now it's all over the place again. Aaaaargh!!!


----------



## DCBassman (9 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> * Hold wheel with one hand drive side crank in the other, and with the link above the chainstay, pull in opposite directions. Result!


Yes, but...


12boy said:


> I found the quicklink pretty tough and bought a Park quicklink pliers for ease in removing and closing quicklinks.


Get the pliers! Hacks for setting them are manifold and work well. Hacks for undoing one are the work of Baal and Beelzebub and will mangle your pinkies!


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Get the pliers! Hacks for setting them are manifold and work well. Hacks for undoing one are the work of Baal and Beelzebub and will mangle your pinkies!



Recommendation noted.


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

We may be ready for a test ride tomorrow.


----------



## DCBassman (9 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> I know Santa Claus is probably going to bring me a work stand


I no longer know how I coped before having a workstand. Aldi 5-leg jobbie in 2018, £24.99 delivered! Great things, workstands.


----------



## Gunk (9 Oct 2020)

DCBassman said:


> I no longer know how I coped before having a workstand. Aldi 5-leg jobbie in 2018, £24.99 delivered! Great things, workstands.



Mine came from Decathlon about £60, fantastic investment.


----------



## DCBassman (9 Oct 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Great things, workstands.


Mind you, mixte frames can be problematic...but not an insurmountable problem!


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

DCBassman said:


> I no longer know how I coped before having a workstand. Aldi 5-leg jobbie in 2018, £24.99 delivered! Great things, workstands.



I just thought it would be nice to be able to stand up to do stuff rather than sit cross-legged on the garage floor and end up with a rather chilled derriere as a result...


----------



## DCBassman (9 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> I just thought it would be nice to be able to stand up to do stuff rather than sit cross-legged on the garage floor and end up with a rather chilled derriere as a result...


Damn right. I don't even have the luxury of a garage...all al fresco, me...


----------



## Gunk (9 Oct 2020)

I don’t know how you managed a rebuild without one


----------



## DCBassman (9 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> I don’t know how you managed a rebuild without one


I haven't! Everything I've done more than basic stuff is since I got the stand. Or if you mean garage/shelter, well, it just takes longer, waiting for the weather!


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> I don’t know how you managed a rebuild without one



The Black & Decker workmate was fine for most things.  Plus I tipped the bike upside down a few times as well. 

But on reflection, it would have made life easier at times.


----------



## Gunk (9 Oct 2020)

It’s about time you posted some photos of the big reveal!


----------



## Reynard (9 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> It’s about time you posted some photos of the big reveal!



Of course I will. Camera is on the charger ready for tomorrow as we speak


----------



## 12boy (10 Oct 2020)

I've a 2 ft overhang above my garage and there and in my bicycle sheds are large hooks from which to hang bikes by their wheels. I also have a stand but hanging off a hook is much faster. Longer or complicated jobs get the stand, and when its cold the stand goes in anempty bedroom so as avoid having my little nosepickers frozen..


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2020)

Well, here you go, gents, as promised... 





















And just as a reminder, here is where I started from...


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2020)

Managed to get a brief test ride in whilst dodging the biblical-grade showers that were blowing in on a very stiff gale. Not the best of starts as I had to return home three times after a few yards to sort the saddle height out.

But once I actually got going, nothing broke, nothing fell off, and bar the fact I can't get it to shift onto the granny ring, everything else works exactly as it should.  Even that sticky gearshift seems to have vanished when the drive train is under load. Still some tweakage required though, but that's to be expected. Really, I need a dry and far less blustery day, a bar bag filled with tools and the chance to do some decent mileage in order to dial things in properly.

The upright position really takes a bit of getting used to after four years of riding road bikes and hybrids, but the bike felt sure-footed on the wet and muddy roads, which is exactly what I wanted. Gearing is pretty well much spot-on - hooray for the mathematics! And with proper levers to work them, the brakes feel surprisingly good. Plus the mudguards worked well and kept my feet and backside nice and dry.

I really do need a layback seatpost though as I'm just a teensy bit too cramped with the set-up as it is, even with the saddle as far back as it will go. That extra inch / inch and a half aftwards will make things much more comfortable. And I find the bars a little too wide, so I shall take 10mm off each end and see how that feels. Oh, and I've now got so used to riding with cleats (I use single-sided SPD), that pure flat pedals feel really odd! Also, I need to take that horizontal "lip" off the front mudguard, as it catches my toes when I go round corners. Will replace that with a flap of some sort.

All in all, I don't think I've done too badly with this.


----------



## Gunk (10 Oct 2020)

I think you’ve done a brilliant job, that looks fantastic


----------



## Reynard (10 Oct 2020)

Gunk said:


> I think you’ve done a brilliant job, that looks fantastic



Thanks xxx 

Not sure I'd have managed it without the amazing help and encouragement I've had on here. You guys have been brilliant too!


----------



## DCBassman (10 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> All in all, I don't think I've done too badly with this.


To coin a phrase, absolutely fabulous!


----------



## raleighnut (11 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> I really do need a layback seatpost though as I'm just a teensy bit too cramped with the set-up as it is, even with the saddle as far back as it will go.


Err.......... that seatpost clamp is on 'backwards', the clamp goes behind the post not in front of it.


----------



## 12boy (11 Oct 2020)

I had no doubt you would prevail but this exceeded my expectation. Better than new! If you could find a pair of 8mm crank spindle bolts they would be nice but it's great right now. Nothing beats a bike you've customized to be perfect for you.


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Err.......... that seatpost clamp is on 'backwards', the clamp goes behind the post not in front of it.



Oops... 

I robbed the clamp off the Emmelle, and it had always been on that way round, so yeah, I made an assumption. 

I shall endeavour to rectify the error.


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2020)

12boy said:


> I had no doubt you would prevail but this exceeded my expectation. Better than new! If you could find a pair of 8mm crank spindle bolts they would be nice but it's great right now. Nothing beats a bike you've customized to be perfect for you.



Thanks


----------



## raleighnut (11 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> Oops...
> 
> I robbed the clamp off the Emmelle, and it had always been on that way round, so yeah, I made an assumption.
> 
> I shall endeavour to rectify the error.


It will give you a bit more room whilst you wait for SJS to send the 'layback' seatpost.


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2020)

raleighnut said:


> It will give you a bit more room whilst you wait for SJS to send the 'layback' seatpost.



Yeah, it will.  I feel like I had a blonde moment there. Except I'm a brunette. 

Haven't ordered the new post and bars yet, as I need to measure what size bolt I need for the seat tube.


----------



## raleighnut (11 Oct 2020)

Reynard said:


> Yeah, it will.  I feel like I had a blonde moment there. Except I'm a brunette.
> 
> Haven't ordered the new post and bars yet, as I need to measure what size bolt I need for the seat tube.


Actually there is no right or wrong way to fit those clamps, it is usual to fit them behind the post but if you need to shift the seat further forwards than the rails allow then rotating them 180 degrees is a useful method.


----------



## 12boy (11 Oct 2020)

That is definitely true for Brompton Pentaclips. They also reverse up and down. Maybe the inch or so will be enough.


----------



## Reynard (11 Oct 2020)

Well, I've swapped it round, and will go for an exploratory bimble later.


----------



## Reynard (12 Oct 2020)

That bimble got put off until this afternoon as I didn't feel well yesterday. There was a dry window in the weather at teatime, so I had a good hour on the bike in some absolutely atrocious road conditions. The rain has washed a lot of gravel onto the roads, plus they're lifting the potato crop, so everything is covered in a good half inch of slimy mud.

Moving the saddle clamp has made a big difference. Still not quite enough, but I don't feel cramped anymore. And it makes the bars not feel quite so wide. Jury is still out on the Selle SMP saddle.

Front brake needs adjusting as it's a little spongy, and I really need to do something about the front mudguard, as it's a bit shite. The one-size-fits-all design means it doesn't sit close enough to the wheel, and as a result, it is most effective at flicking mud over my feet and the downtube. The front fork has eyelets, so I'm thinking that if I can get a mudguard stay from somewhere, I can fix that to the guard and thus bring it in closer to the wheel. I also plan on trimming back that lip on the guard and fitting a plastic flap instead.

The bike felt really good on roads and in conditions that I wouldn't have risked riding the hybrid on, never mind the roadie. I'd forgotten just how comfortable a decent steel frame on fat tyres can be. Yes, it's heavy, but it feels solid and reassuring rather than staid and lardy. In other words, pretty well much what I wanted.


----------



## wafter (12 Oct 2020)

Nice work - looks grand


----------



## Reynard (6 May 2021)

Just a bit of an update a few months down the line...

Didn't get nearly as much riding done over the winter as I'd have liked to due to the weather amongst other things, but now that things are on the up, I'm really starting to enjoy the bike. I've left the bars and seat post for now, likewise the mudguards while I track down better ones. But the Selle SMP has gone, and has been replaced with a Madison Leia - a twin of the currently unobtainable Charge Ladle.







Have been having an absolute blast riding on gravel roads, farm tracks and bridleways, and the bike has barely missed a beat. The challenge has been getting the tyre pressures right - low enough to be sure-footed on the loose stuff, but high enough to make riding on tarmac not feel like wading through treacle. I'll get there, though.

I'd say that it's been well worth the time, effort and money to do this, because I've now got a bike that puts a grin on my face and that I want to get out there and ride. Better still, it's totally unique and bespoke to me. Admittedly it's not the hardtail that I had originally been looking for, but now that I've got some decent mileage on the Max under my belt, I can categorically say that for the riding I do, I don't really need the suspension forks.

Anyways, it's off to go get the bike dirty again. I need to go and vote, and everything is wet after this morning's deluges...


----------



## DRM (6 May 2021)

The old Raleigh MTB that I started on is now just about finished and rideable, it looks like a similar style of frame, although it’s got 26” wheels, and it’s in metallic green paint, I’ve fitted Vittoria Adventure Tech 26x 1.9” tyres, a Spa triple chain set, new shimano brake and gear cables, new Tektro cantilever brakes, a Tourney rear derailleur, sun race 14x28 freewheel, new chain and a new cassette square taper BB, all of which replace originals that were scrap and totally worn out, as well as SKS Mudguards, a rack and panniers, so it weighs a ton compared to my others, but for around £110 I’ve got a usable hybrid utility bike, that as it stood originally was scrap as so much was beyond saving, but so far it’s gone on a trip to the shops, a run to the chemists and to the polling station and it works well, and I’m not afraid to lock it to something while in the shops, so I think it’s a winner all round, and I’ve got another useable bike


----------



## Reynard (6 May 2021)

DRM said:


> The old Raleigh MTB that I started on is now just about finished and rideable, it looks like a similar style of frame, although it’s got 26” wheels, and it’s in metallic green paint, I’ve fitted Vittoria Adventure Tech 26x 1.9” tyres, a Spa triple chain set, new shimano brake and gear cables, new Tektro cantilever brakes, a Tourney rear derailleur, sun race 14x28 freewheel, new chain and a new cassette square taper BB, all of which replace originals that were scrap and totally worn out, as well as SKS Mudguards, a rack and panniers, so it weighs a ton compared to my others, but for around £110 I’ve got a usable hybrid utility bike, that as it stood originally was scrap as so much was beyond saving, but so far it’s gone on a trip to the shops, a run to the chemists and to the polling station and it works well, and I’m not afraid to lock it to something while in the shops, so I think it’s a winner all round, and I’ve got another useable bike



Sounds good 

IIRC the adult version of the Max did come in metallic green... I went for the Spa touring triple as well, but then I did go a bit bonkers on the drive train generally, as I cold set the rear triangle and fitted a new wheelset to take things up to 8 speed with an Altus derailleur and 11-32 cassette. 

No kidding about the bike weighing a ton, though


----------



## DRM (6 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Sounds good
> 
> IIRC the adult version of the Max did come in metallic green... I went for the Spa touring triple as well, but then I did go a bit bonkers on the drive train generally, as I cold set the rear triangle and fitted a new wheelset to take things up to 8 speed with an Altus derailleur and 11-32 cassette.
> 
> No kidding about the bike weighing a ton, though


It may well be a Max, I’ve no idea what it was but I did try to salvage as much as I could, so kept it as a six speed, but at least it avoided the scrapman, so that’s 2 bikes saved between the two of us,


----------



## Reynard (6 May 2021)

DRM said:


> It may well be a Max, I’ve no idea what it was but I did try to salvage as much as I could, so kept it as a six speed, but at least it avoided the scrapman, so that’s 2 bikes saved between the two of us,



Indeed... I acquired mine at the local tip. 

The mods came about because the standard gearing was much too low for flat fen roads, and most of the drive train was totally fubared anyway. Went from a 42-32-24 at the front to a 48-38-28

Can't deny it's good for working at my fitness.


----------



## DRM (6 May 2021)

Mines got the same size triple from Spa, I know exactly what you mean about fitness, it certainly gets the old ticker pumping !


----------



## Reynard (6 May 2021)

DRM said:


> Mines got the same size triple from Spa, I know exactly what you mean about fitness, it certainly gets the old ticker pumping !



Haven't taken the road bike out yet this year - but after riding the Max a lot of late, I reckon I'll be able to go supersonic!


----------



## yo vanilla (20 May 2021)

Love it! Looks like a completely different bike!


----------



## DRM (22 May 2021)

Here’s a picture of the Raleigh Max now it’s been resurrected and is back in use


----------



## Reynard (22 May 2021)

Mmmmm, that looks fabby @DRM  

Might not be a Max, you know, it looks very similar to the Ascender that a friend of mine has. Either way, that looks like a really nice bike. Even better, it's near enough got the same drive train as mine! Good choice!


----------



## 12boy (23 May 2021)

I found a Bianchi Nyala frame at the balefill and tossed the heavy steel triple and went with a nice 40 tooth Al crankarm and chain ring. Also threw on a leather saddle and some v-brakes only to put everything on another bike while I treat the rust and paint it. It is heavy but a plush ride with 2 inch tires. Kinda like a juggernaut. I will post a pic when done.


----------



## DRM (23 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Mmmmm, that looks fabby @DRM
> 
> Might not be a Max, you know, it looks very similar to the Ascender that a friend of mine has. Either way, that looks like a really nice bike. Even better, it's near enough got the same drive train as mine! Good choice!


I have absolutely no clue which model it is, it's the same colour as some Max models, yet has some features of the Ascender, but not all, and it's a different colour too, perhaps it's a Raleigh Enigma ! there were no model stickers on the frame, just Raleigh on the down tube, with a load of the free stickers from mountain biking UK mag stuck all over it.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (23 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Might not be a Max, you know, it looks very similar to the Ascender that a friend of mine has. Either way, that looks like a really nice bike.



This one definitely is an Ascender, a '94 Reflex, 15 speed model with the standard welded 18-23 hi-tensile 70 degree parallel geometry frame that was common to many Raleigh MTB's. Compare to the above and make your own mind up.





My understanding is that all the MAX models used slightly oversized tubes. Fast forward to 1999 and a Raleigh Firefly with a cro-moly frame and oversized tubes. This isn't technically a MAX of course, but according to @Drago it shares the MAX frame.





I don't know if it's an optical illusion, but possibly the Firefly frame is about a degree less slack than the Ascender?. I don't have a geometry chart for it unfortunately.


----------



## battered (26 May 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> This one definitely is an Ascender, a '94 Reflex, 15 speed model with the standard welded 18-23 hi-tensile 70 degree parallel geometry frame that was common to many Raleigh MTB's. Compare to the above and make your own mind up.
> View attachment 590138
> 
> 
> ...


The headset looks steeper on yours, and it doesn't look parallel, so you might be right.


----------



## 12boy (6 Jun 2021)

Here is my Bianca Nyala balefill bike...red primer paint with a clearcoat. It has been curing in my minivan in 60C heat. Looks kinda Mad Max to me but I like it.


----------



## DRM (6 Jun 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> This one definitely is an Ascender, a '94 Reflex, 15 speed model with the standard welded 18-23 hi-tensile 70 degree parallel geometry frame that was common to many Raleigh MTB's. Compare to the above and make your own mind up.
> View attachment 590138
> 
> 
> ...


The Firefly frame looks very much like my mystery machine, identical I'd say except for the colour


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (6 Jun 2021)

12boy said:


> Here is my Bianca Nyala balefill bike...red primer paint with a clearcoat. It has been curing in my minivan in 60C heat. Looks kinda Mad Max to me but I like it.
> View attachment 592424



I notice it's lugged! That makes it a rarity even in the MTB boom days, because most were welded even though lugged road frames were still the norm. Given the name, it's probably a stupid question, but is it made from Columbus tubing by any chance? 



DRM said:


> The Firefly frame looks very much like my mystery machine, identical I'd say except for the colour



I think once the MAX models had displaced the narrow tubed frames after about 1995 or so, Raleigh standardised it's mass market MTB frame on the oversize tube MAX design, even if they called it something else. I would guess they used the same 4130 tubing as the later welded Pioneers. That red Firefly is one of the very final Nottingham built frames ever made before they shut down their in-house fabrication facility and bought in far east frames to rebadge as Raleighs. It was acquired as a cheapo parts donor but the condition and lateness of the build saved it. The paint really glows on a sunny day, the photo doesn't do it justice and it's virtually as good as new even at 22 years old.


----------



## 12boy (6 Jun 2021)

Skipdiver, alas, it is not Columbus but is chromo throughout. It was made in Japan, I believe and is fairly heavy. My thought is made by Panasonic for Bianchi. The only part on it was an old Suntour deraileur when I found the frame at the dump but I think it must have been a '92. That old fashioned seatpost was an odd size but the closest my LBS could order and even then I sanded off a mm or two getting it to fit. It rides smooth, maybe even plush, and those 2 inch heavily knobbed Ritchie tires soak up a lot of bumps.


----------



## wafter (28 Nov 2021)

Epic work @Reynard - really pleased to see you're so happy with the fruits of your labour


----------



## Reynard (28 Nov 2021)

wafter said:


> Epic work @Reynard - really pleased to see you're so happy with the fruits of your labour



Thanks xxx 

Although it ended up not being the knockabout bike I'd envisaged. Hey ho...  All that it really needs for completion is a hex-key saddle clamp bolt rather than the 13mm spannerjob that's still on it, and I'd quite like a hex-key adjustable seatpost & clamp. There was one memorable ride when I ended up with a badly slipping saddle and had to limp four miles home with one hand on the saddle nose to stop me from getting shipped out of the back door...


----------

