# FTP is sooooo yesterday



## Racing roadkill (11 Oct 2017)

It's all about the 4DP, or "four does more" training now. Sounds like another way to strip the gullible of their cash to me though.

https://thesufferfest.com/pages/find-out-first-about-4dp


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## further (11 Oct 2017)

I thought this was going to be about transferring files.


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## Nibor (11 Oct 2017)

So did I


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Oct 2017)

Go on then, explain what it is


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## Inertia (11 Oct 2017)

First To Pass out?


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## Welsh wheels (11 Oct 2017)

I've never bothered with FTP, I just ride.


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## derrick (11 Oct 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> I've never bothered with FTP, I just ride.


You just IJR


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## gaijintendo (11 Oct 2017)

SFTP FTW


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## dodgy (11 Oct 2017)

A lot of this seems to have started around 2010 or so. You hear of cyclists talk about 'training', but they're just riding their bikes. That doesn't sound as impressive, though, so you hear them in pubs boring the non-cyclists with tales of their 'training'.

Pfft.


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## Slick (11 Oct 2017)

I'm glad FTP is dead, I've never really understood it. Can anyone explain 4DP as I think I'll be brilliant at it.


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## Milzy (11 Oct 2017)

Load of nads. I will usually ride at threshold no matter if it’s 20 or 100. If I start to blow then ease back. It’s amazing how you can comfortably hold the pain for hours and still enjoy the ride. Usually the next ride will see PR’s.


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## the_mikey (11 Oct 2017)




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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Oct 2017)

Anyone know what 4DP is yet and how it's better than FTP.

Apparently @Racing roadkill knows enough about it to claim "Sounds like another way to strip the gullible of their cash to me though" but he hasn't returned with an explanation.


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## BikeCurious (12 Oct 2017)

I'm waiting with bated breath to find out. Just 4 more days...


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Oct 2017)

BikeCurious said:


> I'm waiting with bated breath to find out. Just 4 more days...


Ohhg make it stop! 4 whole days


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Oct 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> It doesn't exist yet. Not until October 16th when "training enters a new dimension". I am literally wetting myself with anticipation.
> 
> Edit. Ah, I see everyone else is too.


Yeah, point is the OP seems to know an awful lot about it but has disappeared and won't/hasn't explained


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## AndyRM (12 Oct 2017)

WTF?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Oct 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Dunno about that
> 
> Sounds like something similar to me. But we are all in the dark. Awaiting enlightenment.


Gonna be a long 4 days


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Oct 2017)

The four donut power training?


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## Racing roadkill (12 Oct 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> The four donut power training?


Here's hoping


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## Racing roadkill (12 Oct 2017)

the_mikey said:


>




I'd imagine it's harder than you think.


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fPHO5Brsd3E


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## Cronorider (13 Oct 2017)

the_mikey said:


>




Sadly, now more relevant than ever


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## BikeCurious (16 Oct 2017)

4DP is here! https://thesufferfest.com/blogs/training-resources/4dp-full-frontal-fitness-test-faq. Seems like a good idea to me, I'll certainly give it a go.


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## Bollo (16 Oct 2017)

It looks like a sensible idea wrapped in A LOT of market-speak. I dont have time to poke around this morning but it would be interesting to see if there's some less excitable academic or research background to this. Even then, there's still the big 'so what' factor unless the numbers are used to actually achieve something.


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## Racing roadkill (16 Oct 2017)

*"Q: THIS SEEMS LIKE THE MOST AWESOME THING TO HAPPEN TO INDOOR TRAINING, EVER. AM I RIGHT?"*

Yes.

That's me sold then


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## 400bhp (16 Oct 2017)

FFS - appears to be training based on power curve data (time on the x axis and power on the y). All set out in Allen & Coggan's book.


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## BikeCurious (16 Oct 2017)

When I got home from work tonight I eagerly paid my money, downloaded the app and busted out an hour of unprecedented power during the test to identify my "4DP profile". When it got to the point of saving the test and giving me the result the app crashed and lost my data. £10 and an hour of my life wasted and I'm still none the wiser about what type of rider I am.


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## The Sufferfest (17 Oct 2017)

BikeCurious said:


> When I got home from work tonight I eagerly paid my money, downloaded the app and busted out an hour of unprecedented power during the test to identify my "4DP profile". When it got to the point of saving the test and giving me the result the app crashed and lost my data. £10 and an hour of my life wasted and I'm still none the wiser about what type of rider I am.


 Hey BikeCurious - David from The Sufferfest here. Thanks for trying out 4DP. Really sorry something went wrong with your data. Could you please email us on TheMinions@TheSufferfest.com and we'll see if we can sort it out for you? Cheers, David


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## BikeCurious (17 Oct 2017)

The Sufferfest said:


> Hey BikeCurious - David from The Sufferfest here. Thanks for trying out 4DP. Really sorry something went wrong with your data. Could you please email us on TheMinions@TheSufferfest.com and we'll see if we can sort it out for you? Cheers, David


Hi David. Thank you for your response. I have contacted The Minions and await their response.


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## Norry1 (17 Oct 2017)

400bhp said:


> FFS - appears to be training based on power curve data (time on the x axis and power on the y). All set out in Allen & Coggan's book.



Yes it does appear that way - and yes it is all in the book - but it seems that Sufferfest are making it easy to capture the data and then shape the workouts in a (more) customised way. I used to do Sufferfest Videos before the App and now use Zwift and TrainerRoad but I may have a look at this as it does seem to be adding something.


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## 400bhp (17 Oct 2017)

Yeah I guess. I got bored reading further after I’d worked out what they had done, so long as you can identify areas of strength/weakness and work on them appropriately.


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## BikeCurious (18 Oct 2017)

Well I re-did the test a got my personalised training suggestions. It turns out I don't need to do anything, I'm already awesome!


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## 400bhp (18 Oct 2017)

BikeCurious said:


> Well I re-did the test a got my personalised training suggestions. It turns out I don't need to do anything, I'm already awesome!
> 
> View attachment 379363



Either that or you're that bad they can't help you.


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## Tin Pot (18 Oct 2017)

400bhp said:


> FFS - appears to be training based on power curve data (time on the x axis and power on the y). All set out in Allen & Coggan's book.



Uhoh.

Don't go on Slowtwitch or Bikeradar...


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## The Sufferfest (19 Oct 2017)

Sorry about that Bike Curious -- we've got a few instances where the recommendations for strengths and weaknesses aren't showing up. That's not to say you are not totally badass, of course. We're fixing that bug now and will have it out of there by the weekend.


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## The Sufferfest (19 Oct 2017)

Hi 400bhp. David from The Sufferfest here. Actually, it's not set on that power curve. It's four discreet metrics tested in one, one-hour session which is then applied to pre-programmed workouts where APEX Coaching has mapped each effort in every one of our workouts to the appropriate metric. 

That means that the targets above FTP will vary based on the specific workout and the intention of that workout (or even portion of the workout) relative to your 5 minute, 1 minute, and 5 second Full Frontal 4DP test values. As an example in Violator (a sprint focused workout with three sets of sprints that have various durations and recoveries), not all of the targets are based on 5 second or even 1 minute value, because by the time you get to the 1:1 ratio of work/rest intervals in the third set, it’s effectively a pVO2 max set (power at VO2 max), and therefore the target is set relative to your 5 minute power. Each Sufferfest workout varies to some degree how much and which of the 4DP targets are being used – but the big picture goal of 4DP is to more optimally have the app give just the right intensity of effort throughout the workout relative to the individual’s specific strengths and weaknesses.


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## 400bhp (21 Oct 2017)

No it’s not a power curve. It’s not that sophisticated. It’s just 4 discrete points on it (5s, 1 min, 5 min and 20 min).

Nothing wrong with what you’re doing by the way and at the point you can actually just do full training plans without having to extrapolate from a .pdf I’ll be looking more closely at it.


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## bozmandb9 (21 Oct 2017)

dodgy said:


> A lot of this seems to have started around 2010 or so. You hear of cyclists talk about 'training', but they're just riding their bikes. That doesn't sound as impressive, though, so you hear them in pubs boring the non-cyclists with tales of their 'training'.
> 
> Pfft.



It's not the same though. I coach a Youth team. Some of them ride their bikes. Some of them train. My son is in the latter category. When he started to compete, we realised that the bike riding he had been doing (increasing miles, riding not terribly quickly), would not benefit him in races, in which he was being dropped. He decreased distance, improved speed and speed endurance, and rose rapidly up the national rankings.

The difference between 'training' and riding your bike, is objective. If you want to enjoy riding your bike, by all means just ride it. If you have a specific fitness or competition objective, and wish to follow a training protocol, to progress you in your objective, then that would make sense. As a Personal trainer as well as a Cycle team manager and coach, I think it's critical to be clear in your objectives, strategy, and desired outcomes.


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## dodgy (21 Oct 2017)

I know it's not the same, that was my point


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## BikeCurious (23 Oct 2017)

The Sufferfest said:


> We've got a few instances where the recommendations for strengths and weaknesses aren't showing up. That's not to say you are not totally badass, of course. We're fixing that bug now and will have it out of there by the weekend.


Any word on that update?


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## Bollo (24 Oct 2017)

DC Rainmaker's write up here. Worth a read if you're a bit more than vaguely interested.


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## Norry1 (24 Oct 2017)

Good write-up. Pretty much matches my initial thoughts on it.


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## subaqua (24 Oct 2017)

Some people know how to HTFU .... note not MTFU


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