# 'Car up', 'Car back' & 'Car down'?



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

When on a group ride, what do you call when a car is approaching from the front or the rear?
British Cycling says to call 'Car up' for one approaching from ahead and 'Car back' for one from the rear.
A mate of mine from up country is adamant that this is incorrect and that 'Car up' means from the rear; 'Car down' means from the front. He said it had always been that way and that British Cycling are wrong.
This caused some confusion when we went for a ride together the other day!
So...........which calls to use?
Personally, I'm inclined to go with British Cycling as they seems more logical to me.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/article/izn20121221-group-ride-0


----------



## tallliman (10 Dec 2015)

It doesn't really help but if we were to use railway parlance, up is towards London, down to everywhere else.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

Just shout front or behind.

Interesting they still don't advise against *level* side-by-side riding.

Edit - emphasis to one particular word added for the benefit of those who don't read properly before blurting out know-it-all responses.


----------



## shouldbeinbed (10 Dec 2015)

Does it matter as long as you establish it before turning the pedals?


----------



## gavintc (10 Dec 2015)

Drago said:


> Just shout front or behind.
> 
> Interesting they still don't advise against level side-by-side riding.


20 cyclists strung out, take up more road and are harder to pass than 2 x 10 cyclists.


----------



## Katherine (10 Dec 2015)

Car up = up ahead, so coming towards you. 
Car back = at the back, so behind you.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

I'm not talking about 2 abreast per se. No problem with 2 columns of riders. I didn't just get out of bed, I do earn money teaching this stuff you know Mr tc.

I'm talking about riding dead parallel 2 abreast, depriving you of any visual cues that your buddy is in trouble and about to eat tarmac, and neither space or time to react.


View: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zkpVmsKme4U


That's why most advanced training bodies teach you to stagger half a length, not ride dead abreast.


----------



## screenman (10 Dec 2015)

Car up your backside, so behind you. Car down your throat so in front.


----------



## Apollonius (10 Dec 2015)

That's the way we do it. Incidentally. in my youth in Suffolk, we used to call "oil up" etc.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

"In the ditch! Audi coming!!!"


----------



## jayonabike (10 Dec 2015)

screenman said:


> Car up your backside, so behind you. Car down your throat so in front.


When I was a member of the local cycling club this is what I was told


----------



## ANT 666 (10 Dec 2015)

Car up, up your bum. Car down, down your throat. Simples


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Dec 2015)

Car coming DOWN the road towards you, coming UP the road behind you.


----------



## Katherine (10 Dec 2015)

Car up is starting to look like two opposite confusing meanings.


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Dec 2015)

Katherine said:


> Car up is starting to look like two opposite confusing meanings.


yes - good idea to sort this out before you set off.


----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

Katherine said:


> Car up is starting to look like two opposite confusing meanings.


Exactly!


----------



## Slioch (10 Dec 2015)




----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

The British Cycling guideline seems far more logical to me.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/article/izn20121221-group-ride-0


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

British Cyclings advice is kack - lots of talk about indicating, zero talk about "looking" before doing so.


----------



## contadino (10 Dec 2015)

I just shout 'car!'

But then I only ride with others maybe once or twice a year.


----------



## Donger (10 Dec 2015)

My favourite shout that I've ever heard was "*F**king great big shed behind *_!_" as a home-made hippy wagon with a wooden caravan conversion on the back went past us on a club ride.


----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

Drago said:


> British Cyclings advice is kack - lots of talk about indicating, zero talk about "looking" before doing so.


Isn't British Cycling the sports governing body? If so, shouldn't we follow their guidelines?


----------



## RichardB (10 Dec 2015)

"Petrol !!!"


----------



## PK99 (10 Dec 2015)

Car down IE from the front and down the line

Car up ieup the line from the back


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Isn't British Cycling the sports governing body? If so, shouldn't we follow their guidelines?



Depends on whether you want to live or not. They're not the boss of me, and I would suggest their advice for road riding is flawed.


----------



## Dan B (10 Dec 2015)

"Auto van hinten!" 

If you're in Sardinia on a speedskating training camp run by Germans, anyway. Otherwise YMMV I suppose


----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

YMMV?


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Dec 2015)

Up? Down?

Wtf are you lot in about?

No, wait - I can tell I don't want to know already.


----------



## RichardB (10 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> YMMV?


Your mileage may vary (a disclaimer from old US car adverts, I think).


----------



## Tin Pot (10 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Isn't British Cycling the sports governing body? If so, shouldn't we follow their guidelines?



If British Cycling comes round here, telling ME whether I should say up, down or do the hokey cokey I will say OI!


----------



## Apollonius (10 Dec 2015)

They do point out that there are local variations. (British Cycling that is.) I like the point they make about not over-doing the warnings. Cries of "wolf" are often counter-productive. If people are calling out every imperfection in the road, it becomes a running commentary and has little effect. Thus, when something DOES need mentioning it is lost in the clutter. I see Drago's point about the lack of emphasis on rear observation, but I think that might be covered elsewhere. 

The most important (and difficult to communicate to and imbue in people) is assertiveness. You have to hold your ground on the road. People scattering in all directions when a car is "up" makes a group hard to manage safely. I speak as a regular "lanterne rouge" or sweeper-up.


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

Tin Pot discusses British Cycling...


View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ETqncRvQHWk


----------



## boydj (10 Dec 2015)

'Nose' and 'Tail' used in this part of the world.


----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

boydj said:


> 'Nose' and 'Tail' used in this part of the world.


Now that's just confusing......


----------



## jonny jeez (10 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> When on a group ride, what do you call when a car is approaching from the front or the rear?
> British Cycling says to call 'Car up' for one approaching from ahead and 'Car back' for one from the rear.
> A mate of mine from up country is adamant that this is incorrect and that 'Car up' means from the rear; 'Car down' means from the front. He said it had always been that way and that British Cycling are wrong.
> This caused me some confusion when we went for a ride together the other day!
> ...


I am sooooo glad I'm not the only one..I end up shouting car ahead and car behinbd because I can never remember in time.

sometimes I just shout CAR!!


----------



## robjh (10 Dec 2015)

After riding with different groups I'd agree that 'car down' = ahead is the most standard interpretation, though I hear a lot of 'car up' to mean the same thing. In our club we usually go for 'car back' for a vehicle behind, so despite the 'up/down' muddle there's not usually any doubt about what is meant.


----------



## boydj (10 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Now that's just confusing......


'Nose' obviously means some kind of threat or obstacle ahead, and 'Tail'.......................

Simple really


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Dec 2015)

Whatever, should be used in moderation, not shouted out for every vehicle on a busy main road, as sometimes happens with keen newcomers to club rides.


----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

boydj said:


> 'Nose' obviously means some kind of threat or obstacle ahead, and 'Tail'.......................
> 
> Simple really


I prefer 'Fore' and 'Aft'.


----------



## Andy_R (10 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Isn't British Cycling the sports governing body? If so, shouldn't we follow their guidelines?


Does this mean that Bernie Ecclestone should tell drivers how to use the roads? I think not.


----------



## derrick (10 Dec 2015)

Get's on my nerves keep hearing this, I have eyes and ears, When and why did this start?


----------



## Dirk (10 Dec 2015)

Andy_R said:


> Does this mean that Bernie Ecclestone should tell drivers how to use the roads? I think not.


Bernie Ecclestone is not motor sports governing body. He only controls the commercial rights to the F1 part of the sport.
The governing body is the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA)


----------



## snorri (10 Dec 2015)

Apollonius said:


> If people are calling out every imperfection in the road, it becomes a running commentary and has little effect. Thus, when something DOES need mentioning it is lost in the clutter..


Indeed!
Reminds me of one of my very few group rides, conversation was all but impossible, at least when cycling solo my train of thought runs uninterrupted


----------



## Drago (10 Dec 2015)

I somehow don't think I'd take roadcraft advice from Jean Todt.


----------



## Diggs (10 Dec 2015)

Hahaha, I've heard it vary on a ride. If I can't see one in front, I assume it's coming from behind


----------



## Markymark (10 Dec 2015)

I ride in London. I find shouting "fecking cars everywhere" at the beginning of each ride covers it.


----------



## outlash (10 Dec 2015)

On my local CC's club runs it's 'car back' for behind and 'car up' if it's in front. 

IMO, riding in a group of more than 5 requires communication up and down the line and if the only thing you can see in front for the best part of 3 hours is someone else's backside, hand signals and calls are pretty essential.


----------



## HLaB (10 Dec 2015)

The OP forgot 'Nose' and 'Tail'


----------



## Sharky (10 Dec 2015)

Oil


----------



## Dogtrousers (11 Dec 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Cries of "wolf" are often counter-productive.


Is that wolf up or wolf down?

Arooooooo


----------



## RichardB (11 Dec 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Is that wolf up or wolf down?
> 
> Arooooooo


Or ooooooarrr, depending.


----------



## mjr (11 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> Isn't British Cycling the sports governing body? If so, shouldn't we follow their guidelines?


No. Riding on the road isn't a sport. The helmet forcing fondlers at BC can get bent.

CTC use the more logical "car up" = "car moving up the group" but the BC disagreement means our CN group rides tend to use "car back" to avoid the confusion when we've both CTC and BC guests.


----------



## mjr (11 Dec 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Incidentally. in my youth in Suffolk, we used to call "oil up" etc.


Yeah, but Suffolk's full of perverts 

More seriously, isn't "oil" for motorbikes?


----------



## Milkfloat (11 Dec 2015)

I ride with a couple of groups, one that uses car up for behind, one that uses it for oncoming. It gets a bit confusing so I usually default to up=behind. To be honest just knowing which direction the calls are coming from gives it away.


----------



## Joshua Plumtree (11 Dec 2015)

Ride with two cycling clubs. One uses 'car up' for car ahead and 'car back' for one behind; the other says 'car down' for a car approaching from ahead and 'car up' for anything behind. Very confusing!


----------



## Dirk (11 Dec 2015)

What I can't understand is why the patently obvious - 'Car ahead' or 'Car behind' (or something similarly unambiguous) wasn't adopted by all in the first place.


----------



## PK99 (11 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> What I can't understand is why the patently obvious - 'Car ahead' or 'Car behind' (or something similarly unambiguous) wasn't adopted by all in the first place.



Car ahead is ambiguous.

Car ahead on this side of the road, move out to pass 
or 
Car ahead, coming this way.

Surely Up/down are unambiguous:

Up from the tail or up your arse
Down from the head or down you throat.


----------



## Dirk (11 Dec 2015)

PK99 said:


> Car ahead is ambiguous.
> 
> Car ahead on this side of the road, move out to pass
> or
> ...


I always think of things being 'up ahead'; not 'down ahead'.
Things are only unambiguous if they are logical and easily understood.
This is patently not the case as two, totally opposite, schools of thought have developed.


----------



## Red17 (11 Dec 2015)

The times I've been out with a group its always been car front and car back - seems the clearest to me.


----------



## G-Zero (11 Dec 2015)

PK99 said:


> Car ahead is ambiguous.
> 
> Car ahead on this side of the road, move out to pass
> or
> ...



About as unambiguous as car up on this side of the road, move out to pass
Or
Car up, coming this way


----------



## mpre53 (11 Dec 2015)

I think that shouting "car up!!!" is the dumbest thing that group ride idiots do. I'm not Stevie Wonder---I have two good eyes, and they aren't buried in my stem or my Garmin when I'm riding. It makes sense only when you've taken the lane to turn against oncoming traffic (right for you Brits). 

Also, there's no need to yell out "car back!!!" on a busy road with a constant stream of passing cars---you assume that there's always a car back.


----------



## mpre53 (11 Dec 2015)

outlash said:


> On my local CC's club runs it's 'car back' for behind and 'car up' if it's in front.
> 
> IMO, riding in a group of more than 5 requires communication up and down the line and if the only thing you can see in front for the best part of 3 hours is someone else's backside, hand signals and calls are pretty essential.



Why would you turn out of a line and ride across the road in any case? I can see calling out road hazards on your side, but call out every car coming the other way? Makes no sense.

These threads make me wonder how I've managed to survive solo rides for so long, without someone letting me know about cars coming at me, or coming up behind me.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (11 Dec 2015)

We use "car up" for car behind and "car down" for car coming towards us. I loathe hand signals, quite a lot of people aren't good enough bike handlers to have their hands off the bars


----------



## Tin Pot (11 Dec 2015)

What is this place where cars are so slow you can utter two syllables before they are upon you?


----------



## T4tomo (11 Dec 2015)

If the person in front of you shouts car (whatever) then the car is in front of you.

If the person behind shouts it then the car is coming from that direction.

It really is that simple.

The up down ahead back oil tin box jalopy makes not a jot of difference


----------



## screenman (11 Dec 2015)

mpre53 said:


> Why would you turn out of a line and ride across the road in any case? I can see calling out road hazards on your side, but call out every car coming the other way? Makes no sense.
> 
> These threads make me wonder how I've managed to survive solo rides for so long, without someone letting me know about cars coming at me, or coming up behind me.



So there you are riding along in a bunch of say 12, you have 3 riders in front and 2 behind as well as the one's beside them. Can you see everything the one's at the front and back can. Only a group ride idiot would say yes.


----------



## youngoldbloke (11 Dec 2015)

mpre53 said:


> Why would you turn out of a line and ride across the road in any case? I can see calling out road hazards on your side, but call out every car coming the other way? Makes no sense.
> 
> These threads make me wonder *how I've managed to survive solo rides* for so long, without someone letting me know about cars coming at me, or coming up behind me.


Speaking as a 'group ride idiot' I don't think you get it - these calls are most useful when riding in a group two abreast, on a narrow road or lane, and may suggest the need to move to single file (we would then shout 'single up'). Also serves as a warning for a rider not to overtake or change position at that time. You don't call out every car on a busy road, and you certainly don't need to do it riding solo - then you'd be a 'solo ride idiot' wouldn't you?


----------



## mjr (11 Dec 2015)

mpre53 said:


> These threads make me wonder how I've managed to survive solo rides for so long, without someone letting me know about cars coming at me, or coming up behind me.


People on our social rides tend to, well, socialise. It's useful to have others helping watch out for motorists, in case you were talking, or your look behind saw only the riders behind you and not whatever's behind them. Not often a problem for solo riders.


----------



## mjr (11 Dec 2015)

Dirk Thrust said:


> What I can't understand is why the patently obvious - 'Car ahead' or 'Car behind' (or something similarly unambiguous) wasn't adopted by all in the first place.


They're too easily confused if you don't hear them exactly, both having a dah dah dah sound, both typically flat or rising depending on your accent. Using up/down makes them dah dee and dah dow, one rising and one falling. Back/front are also sufficiently different IMO but not quite as much.

This is also why there shouldn't be too many different calls in a group.


----------



## PK99 (12 Dec 2015)

mjray said:


> People on our social rides tend to, well, socialise. It's useful to have others helping watch out for motorists, in case you were talking, *or your look behind saw only the riders behind you and not whatever's behind them*. Not often a problem for solo riders.



in a tight group you want to be looking forward not back!


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

I'm in sympathy with @mpre53 here.

I can't stand riding in groups with constant bloody shouting going on. We never or *rarely* had it in the early days of our club, it's appeared since we've been joined by people from a 'serious' club and a lot more newbies.
Cars happen, we should expect that and ride accordingly whether solo or in a bunch. There will always be cars behind us on most main/busyish roads and most of the time they're trying to get past and they can bloody well wait until it's safe. There are always likely to be cars coming the other way too, so they shouldn't need to be called either, we should expect them.
I said *rarely* because calling is most valuable when the unexpected happens. When people call every vehicle it just becomes background noise and spoils a good ride.


----------



## SteCenturion (12 Dec 2015)

screenman said:


> Car up your backside, so behind you. Car down your throat so in front.


Might try that with her indoors


----------



## screenman (12 Dec 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I'm in sympathy with @mpre53 here.
> 
> I can't stand riding in groups with constant bloody shouting going on. We never or *rarely* had it in the early days of our club, it's appeared since we've been joined by people from a 'serious' club and a lot more newbies.
> Cars happen, we should expect that and ride accordingly whether solo or in a bunch. There will always be cars behind us on most main/busyish roads and most of the time they're trying to get past and they can bloody well wait until it's safe. There are always likely to be cars coming the other way too, so they shouldn't need to be called either, we should expect them.
> I said *rarely* because calling is most valuable when the unexpected happens. When people call every vehicle it just becomes background noise and spoils a good ride.



Seems to me that the older members may not have taught the new one's properly. Does your club run a group ride training session?


----------



## PK99 (12 Dec 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I'm in sympathy with @mpre53 here.
> 
> I can't stand riding in groups with constant bloody shouting going on. We never or *rarely* had it in the early days of our club, it's appeared since we've been joined by people from a 'serious' club and a lot more newbies.
> Cars happen, we should expect that and ride accordingly whether solo or in a bunch. There will always be cars behind us on most main/busyish roads and most of the time they're trying to get past and they can bloody well wait until it's safe. There are always likely to be cars coming the other way too, so they shouldn't need to be called either, we should expect them.
> I said *rarely* because calling is most valuable when the unexpected happens. When people call every vehicle it just becomes background noise and spoils a good ride.



most of the group riding I do is on roads in Surrey ,Kent, Sussex, Berkshire etc. a high % on roads without central white lines and where cars are very often few and far between Informing the group that a car is coming up from behind or down from the top of the group is an important safety factor.


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

screenman said:


> Seems to me that the older members may not have taught the new one's properly. *Does your club run a group ride training session?*


One has been started and it's along the lines of the faux chain-gang shouty brigade


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

PK99 said:


> most of the group riding I do is on roads in Surrey ,Kent, Sussex, Berkshire etc. a high % on roads without central white lines and where cars are very often few and far between Informing the group that a car is coming up from behind or down from the top of the group is an important safety factor.


I don't disagree where there is a real safety implication, but ONLY then.


----------



## screenman (12 Dec 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I don't disagree where there is a real safety implication, but ONLY then.



Have you thought about running the teaching sessions yourself?


----------



## screenman (12 Dec 2015)

User13710 said:


> Not always. A cycling holiday was almost ruined for me by one very old bloke who insisted on shouting CAR at every single vehicle - including parked ones! When asked by several of us to stop it, he said he couldn't because if someone cycled into the back of a parked car and broke their neck because he hadn't called it, he would feel terrible. He was a ghastly old bore and very full of himself.




My point was if it was perfect before the new members, then the new members were not trained in the way of the club.


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

screenman said:


> Have you thought about running the teaching sessions yourself?


I simply don't have the time as I'm rarely around in the weeks either.
We try not to do 'Teaching' or be prescriptive in that kind of way. If I'm leading a ride I will ask to keep the shouting to the bare essentials. But others find it impossible to do this it seems. The reason our group is gaining membership at a goodly rate is because of the lack of rules and an emphasis on fun and social whereas other clubs beat their riders with rules, lot's of shouting and other so-called advice.


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I simply don't have the time as I'm rarely around in the weeks either.
> We try not to do 'Teaching' or be prescriptive in that kind of way. If I'm leading a ride I will ask to keep the shouting to the bare essentials. But others find it impossible to do this it seems. I'm sure we could have an endless debate at committees etc. but that's not our way.
> The reason our group is gaining membership at a goodly rate is because of the lack of rules and an emphasis on fun and social.


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

User13710 said:


> Not always. A cycling holiday was almost ruined for me by one very old bloke who insisted on shouting CAR at every single vehicle - including parked ones! When asked by several of us to stop it, he said he couldn't because if someone cycled into the back of a parked car and broke their neck because he hadn't called it, he would feel terrible. He was a ghastly old bore and very full of himself.


.... and that's part of the problem, like Helmet Rools etc. Some people won't or can't let these things lie.


----------



## Milkfloat (12 Dec 2015)

The rides I generally go on are very quiet roads and we spend most of our tIme 2 or 3 abreast. These roads are not wide enough to allow a car to safely pass either direction, so the calls are used to move us into single file.


----------



## T4tomo (12 Dec 2015)

User13710 said:


> Not always. A cycling holiday was almost ruined for me by one very old bloke who insisted on shouting CAR at every single vehicle - including parked ones! When asked by several of us to stop it, he said he couldn't because if someone cycled into the back of a parked car and broke their neck because he hadn't called it, he would feel terrible. He was a ghastly old bore and very full of himself.


You should have ridden him into the back of a parked car, that would shut him up.


----------



## screenman (12 Dec 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I simply don't have the time as I'm rarely around in the weeks either.
> We try not to do 'Teaching' or be prescriptive in that kind of way. If I'm leading a ride I will ask to keep the shouting to the bare essentials. But others find it impossible to do this it seems. The reason our group is gaining membership at a goodly rate is because of the lack of rules and an emphasis on fun and social whereas other clubs beat their riders with rules, lot's of shouting and other so-called advice.



That is a major part of the problem, in the days long gone new people were shown the ropes, I know I was. Nowadays everybody is way to busy, just shows you how wrong Tomorrows World was.


----------



## Apollonius (12 Dec 2015)

Totally agree about the insufferable constant commentary some people seem to want to give. Only shout when there is an unexpected danger. There are always cars (up, down, round and round) and holes in the road.


----------



## PK99 (12 Dec 2015)

Apollonius said:


> Totally agree about the insufferable constant commentary some people seem to want to give. Only shout when there is an unexpected danger. There are always cars (up, down, round and round) and holes in the road.



Some time ago, riding solo, heading down a narrowish twisty bit of road (Markedge Lane toward's Fanny's Farm), a group I had passed re-grouping at the head of the lane, came up behind and were clearly anxious to pass. At one of the bends, just as the lead man was pulling out to pass i spotted a car a bend or two ahead and called "Car", pass aborted the lead man said "thanks mate".

Knowing 'group riding' calls is an important part of riding skills - even when riding solo.


----------



## Fab Foodie (12 Dec 2015)

PK99 said:


> Some time ago, riding solo, heading down a narrowish twisty bit of road (Markedge Lane toward's Fanny's Farm), a group I had passed re-grouping at the head of the lane, came up behind and were clearly anxious to pass. At one of the bends, just as the lead man was pulling out to pass i spotted a car a bend or two ahead and called "Car", pass aborted the lead man said "thanks mate".
> 
> Knowing 'group riding' calls is an important part of riding skills - even when riding solo.


I don't think anyone disagrees when there is danger to be averted, but I don't think every car that overtakes the car is worth a 'Car-up' and now we also get 'Car-passing' ....


----------



## mjr (13 Dec 2015)

PK99 said:


> in a tight group you want to be looking forward not back!


I agree but KLWNBUG is a pootleton, not a tight group, which is also why you might want to look back before moving up to change the group order and chat with someone else for a bit, as we're not constantly rotating the order like some groups do.

I also agree that it's daft to call everything on busy roads, but out on the fen roads, through the brecks and near the coast, cars are still blissfully rare, so it helps. Similarly, pointing at potholes is helpful on generally-good roads, but not if it's patched to hell... and I've once asked someone to stop pointing and calling every drain grating...


----------

