# What is a Mountain Biker?



## Muddy Ground (5 Aug 2011)

I upset some guy the other day by stating that he wasn't a mountain biker; he likes to ride to places using a mix of roads and bridleways. He uses a mountain bike to get there and back. To me he's a proper cyclist; one who likes his bike as a useful mode of transport to varied locations, and who perhaps doesn't care too much what he rides so long as it does the job. Yet he took umbridge over not being labelled as a mountain biker, which I found rather odd. 

To me there are three'ish distinctions; mountain biker, cyclist and then roadie. In simple terms an MTB'er wants to hack through singletrack as fast as possible; a roadie will want to do a ton every ride - or at the very least "get some miles in"; whilst a cyclist doesn't care either way, they just want to enjoy the journey. I think the roadie and MTB'er are of the same breed; adrenaline junkies except roadies like a bit more pain. The cyclist is the all-rounder and perhaps the better person.


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## Zoiders (5 Aug 2011)

It's a contrived argument.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Aug 2011)

Within the MTB camp there are many Sub sections.

Down Hillers

X-Country Riders

Free Riders

4x Riders

Trail Rides


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## Friz (5 Aug 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/24/bike-snobs-guide-cycling-tribes


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## calibanzwei (5 Aug 2011)

Friz said:


> http://www.guardian....-cycling-tribes



Enjoyable read that


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## Red Light (5 Aug 2011)

Does it matter - he rides a mountain bike? 

What's singletrack and speed got to do with it anyway? Are you not a mountain biker if you ride the Garburn Pass or Walna Scar? If you want to be picky about labels, you are not a mountain biker unless you are riding in the mountains.

Sounds like you're one of those faux mountain bikers swooping along the man-made single track at Forestry Mountain Bike Centres


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## Friz (5 Aug 2011)

calibanzwei said:


> Enjoyable read that



This cracks me up every time...



> In fact, there's a traditional rivalry between Roadies and Mountain Bikers, which leads Mountain Bikers to do extremely irritating things like try to race Roadies who are simply out for a ride, which, if you're a Roadie, is sort of like being goaded by a hillbilly while you're browsing an art gallery.


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Aug 2011)

Friz said:


> This cracks me up every time...
> 
> 
> 
> > In fact, there's a traditional rivalry between Roadies and Mountain Bikers, which leads Mountain Bikers to do extremely irritating things like try to race Roadies who are simply out for a ride, which, if you're a Roadie, is sort of like being goaded by a hillbilly while you're browsing an art gallery.



Can't say I've every raced a roadie. I have tried to keep pace one occasion but after a few seconds realised how futile the attempt was.


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## Zoiders (5 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> Does it matter - he rides a mountain bike?
> 
> What's singletrack and speed got to do with it anyway? Are you not a mountain biker if you ride the Garburn Pass or Walna Scar? If you want to be picky about labels, you are not a mountain biker unless you are riding in the mountains.
> 
> Sounds like you're one of those faux mountain bikers swooping along the man-made single track at Forestry Mountain Bike Centres


I ride with two other chaps, we cut all over the place on the Chase, we avoid the touristy trails like the plague.

About half of the guys we see out riding in all the kit, the spanking new SPD shoes, the shiney Trek full sussers with all the gubbins, the Fox float forks they dropped half a grand on...well they may as well just stick to the canal tow paths as they trundle round on the "off road stuff" like grannies (swapped that last word for something else that rhymed)

It's a tool box and the bike you see someone on does not indicate the ability or attitude they have to riding, I have been told on good authority that some cheeky so and so's even go so far as to own more than one kind of bike for road _and _off road riding.


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## Red Light (5 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> I ride with two other chaps, we cut all over the place on the Chase, we avoid the touristy trails like the plague.
> 
> About half of the guys we see out riding in all the kit, the spanking new SPD shoes, the shiney Trek full sussers with all the gubbins, the Fox float forks they dropped half a grand on...well they may as well just stick to the canal tow paths as they trundle round on the "off road stuff" like grannies (swapped that last word for something else that rhymed)
> 
> It's a tool box and the bike you see someone on does not indicate the ability or attitude they have to riding, I have been told on good authority that some cheeky so and so's even go so far as to own more than one kind of bike for road _and _off road riding.



Perhaps we need a grading and licensing system. Start people out on Ammanco bikes until they demonstrate their riding is worth of a better bike. Fox forks will of course be restricted to those who can ride the Dalbeattie black routes without dabbing.


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## lesley_x (5 Aug 2011)

Zoiders said:


> I ride with two other chaps, we cut all over the place on the Chase, we avoid the touristy trails like the plague.
> 
> About half of the guys we see out riding in all the kit, the spanking new SPD shoes, the shiney Trek full sussers with all the gubbins, the Fox float forks they dropped half a grand on...well they may as well just stick to the canal tow paths as they trundle round on the "off road stuff" like grannies (swapped that last word for something else that rhymed)
> 
> It's a tool box and the bike you see someone on does not indicate the ability or attitude they have to riding, I have been told on good authority that some cheeky so and so's even go so far as to own more than one kind of bike for road _and _off road riding.




So what if they have fancy forks and shoes? They're out enjoying themselves. Who cares.


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## coffeejo (5 Aug 2011)

Friz said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/24/bike-snobs-guide-cycling-tribes


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## Zoiders (5 Aug 2011)

lesley_x said:


> So what if they have fancy forks and shoes? They're out enjoying themselves. Who cares.


I was agreeing with red light.

The OP how ever thinks you have to project a certain image and attitude and this must dictate how you ride, which leads to blokes just throwing money at the problem, the problem being that they are crap.


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## DrSquirrel (5 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> Perhaps we need a grading and licensing system. Start people out on Ammanco bikes until they demonstrate their riding is worth of a better bike. Fox forks will of course be restricted to those who can ride the Dalbeattie black routes without dabbing.



Bullshit. Someone should not need to be good, to be allowed to ride or purchase a better bike. If they have they money to spend (regardless of how avalible it actually is) then why can't they?


If I had the money I would spend £2k on a hardtail and ride it like 10 times a year and not give a crap what anyone said, but since I am a bit more sensible my £600 ish will do.


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## Zoiders (5 Aug 2011)

Muddy Ground said:


> "The OP how ever thinks you have to project a certain image and attitude and this must dictate how you ride, which leads to blokes just throwing money at the problem, the problem being that they are crap."
> 
> Didn't take long to go off piste now did it? Where did I mention image? I certainly never mentioned trail centres. I've only ever been to one once. Tsk, tsk, really now.
> 
> ...


How can you be interested in "labels" and believe in them as you seem to do and not think it's about image?

This really is a bang your head on the table thread.


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## Zoiders (5 Aug 2011)

Runs deep in the forum?

Dude, you are just making this bollocks up now and this thread was designed to be about you blowing your own trumpet (or possibly something else) from word one.

Wait...hang on.

Spinners old chap!

Welcome back.


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## Red Light (5 Aug 2011)

DrSquirrel said:


> Bullshit. Someone should not need to be good, to be allowed to ride or purchase a better bike. If they have they money to spend (regardless of how avalible it actually is) then why can't they?
> 
> 
> If I had the money I would spend £2k on a hardtail and ride it like 10 times a year and not give a crap what anyone said, but since I am a bit more sensible my £600 ish will do.



Hint: Irony, like coppery or silvery but with more iron.


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## G-Zero (5 Aug 2011)

What is a Mountain Biker? 

At the risk of going back on topic, a few years ago there was a _real_ Mountain Biker riding around Cumbria. 

I was on foot, close to Striding Edge on Helvellyn in crap visibility, freezing temperatures and walking in a couple of inches of snow. I had ice axe and crampons at the ready in case 'the edge' and above was icy and I came across MTB tracks in the snow. FFS !! - I could hardly believe my eyes.

I never saw the bike or rider, but if you're on this forum - you have my respect


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## GrumpyGregry (5 Aug 2011)

Who cares how you label 'em so long as they ride a bike.


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## derrick (5 Aug 2011)

What a waste of time, do not know why i even bothered ready this, he rides a bike, that's good enough for me, i ride both mtb and road, i don't care if some one is better or worse i enjoy what i do,
i think some one needs to get a life,


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## Muddy Ground (5 Aug 2011)

I quote: "The cyclist is the all-rounder and perhaps the better person" and "To me he's a proper cyclist" - how does this translate to my thinking I'm better? It doesn't does it? I stated quite clearly that he's a proper cyclist and a better person - I wasn't attacking him or 'dissing' his chosen mode of transport. Where did you all get that from! 

The posted article said what I was trying to say quite nicely.

Bye bye.


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## lukesdad (6 Aug 2011)

Off road is about grin factor. Whatever floats your boat. I talk to all manor of idiots on the trail, and they talk to me


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## Alembicbassman (6 Aug 2011)

G-Zero said:


> What is a Mountain Biker?
> 
> At the risk of going back on topic, a few years ago there was a _real_ Mountain Biker riding around Cumbria.
> 
> ...



I went up Helvellyn on foot via Striding edge in April last year. There were loads of mountain bikers up there, there is a trail that is bikeable via the Hostel at Glenridding but I think you'd spend 30% of it off the bike, the rocks are too big to cycle over. 

Striding Edge would be impossible to cycle even in this weather


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## Angelfishsolo (6 Aug 2011)

Alembicbassman said:


> I went up Helvellyn on foot via Striding edge in April last year. There were loads of mountain bikers up there, there is a trail that is bikeable via the Hostel at Glenridding but I think you'd spend 30% of it off the bike, the rocks are too big to cycle over.
> 
> Striding Edge would be impossible to cycle even in this weather



Never say impossible!!!! Someone is bound to try it now


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## locker (6 Aug 2011)

Friz said:


> http://www.guardian....-cycling-tribes




Luv it!


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## MontyVeda (6 Aug 2011)

A friend on mine years ago proudly said to me "I went up Helvellyn today... on my bike". That's a mountain biker.


edit ...lyn not lin!


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## Globalti (7 Aug 2011)

Back in the late 80s and the 90s my brother and I used to carry our bikes (full rigid, no suspension) up mountains and then ride them through and down them. We came to mountain biking from a mountaineering background so for us it was a natural progression. In winter we would use touring skis instead of bikes. 

I've tried a couple of trail centres and found them boring, repetitive and littered with wrappers and plastic bottles bought from the trail centres. Despite that the people who go round and round the routes are still mountain bikers in my book because they ride mountain bikes.


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## snorri (7 Aug 2011)

Mountain bikers are car occupants with a bike on the roof.


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## Red Light (7 Aug 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> Never say impossible!!!! Someone is bound to try it now



Striding or Swirrel Edge on with a bike would be a carry but I've "ridden" Helvellyn from Ambleside to Keswick - up Green Tongue to Dollywaggon Pike, Helvellyn, Watson's Dodd and down to the Old Coach Rd. Bit of a carry in parts, particularly coming down off Lower Man but surprisingly rideable a lot of the way. Also done it from Glenridding which is a bit of a carry up.

Riding in fresh snow is in many ways easier in that it fills in and over the rocks.


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> Striding or Swirrel Edge on with a bike would be a carry but I've "ridden" Helvellyn from Ambleside to Keswick - up Green Tongue to Dollywaggon Pike, Helvellyn, Watson's Dodd and down to the Old Coach Rd. Bit of a carry in parts, particularly coming down off Lower Man but surprisingly rideable a lot of the way. Also done it from Glenridding which is a bit of a carry up.
> 
> Riding in fresh snow is in many ways easier in that it fills in and over the rocks.



Once again I say _*never say impossible as somebody will try*_ - That does not mean they will succeed.


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## Red Light (7 Aug 2011)

Globalti said:


> In winter we would use touring skis instead of bikes.



Bikes are fun in the snow too 





Coming from a mountaineering background like you though I am always disappointed/shocked at the complete absence of mountain craft in the mountain biking magazines. You'll see nothing in them about carrying a survival bag and whistle & torch, compass and map reading skills, clothing etc that you would in the mountaineering magazine. Most mountain bikers set off woefully unprepared IMO.


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## Red Light (7 Aug 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> Once again I say _*never say impossible as somebody will try*_ - That does not mean they will succeed.



There are too many vertical scramble down sections with no landing zone to be ridable on Swirrel and Striding Edges even for Danny Macaskill.


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> There are too many vertical scramble down sections with no landing zone to be ridable on Swirrel and Striding Edges even for Danny Macaskill.



Which part of _*try *_do you not get?????


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## Cardiac (7 Aug 2011)

This thread brings back memories. It's not me in the pic, BTW - I didn't have a camera in 1974 when I took my basic teenager's bike over Walna (it was the shortcut back to our holiday cottage in Dunnerdale having gone over Wrynose in the morning). As far as I am aware there weren't dedicated MTBs in those days. Just as much fun though.


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Aug 2011)

IMHO - A person becomes a MTBr when they ride a bike on anything more technically challenging the forestry fire roads.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Aug 2011)

snorri said:


> Mountain bikers are car occupants with a bike on the roof.



I know what you mean. Huge 'animal' branded 4WD badly driven to a trail centre or local forest seems to be the order of the day.

But in defence of us mtb-ers I've been mtb'ing since the early 90's and none of my bikes have ever been on a roof rack. I used to turn heads at xc races when I turned up in my single seat 2CV! I'd go faster uphill on the bike.


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Aug 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> IMHO - A person becomes a MTBr when they ride a bike on anything more technically challenging the forestry fire roads.



if the fire road is up down or across a real mountain, then even then they are a mountain biker.

But you ain't a real mountain biker if you ride down what you haven't ridden/pushed/carried up first. So there!


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> if the fire road is up down or across a real mountain, then even then they are a mountain biker.
> 
> But you ain't a real mountain biker if you ride down what you haven't ridden/pushed/carried up first. So there!



OK Access to forestry roads  

You missed out an important bit as well. You must have had one really bad fall


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## GrumpyGregry (7 Aug 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> OK Access to forestry roads
> 
> You missed out an important bit as well. You must have had one really bad fall



You must have had one really bad fall that was entirely avoidable and happened because you

a) were going far too fast to make that bend
b) were far too lacking in talent to ever make that drop off
c) were overtaken by your own pride a millisecond or two before you lost it
d) were unaccountably unable to see that the tree had moved



Actually I'd say the real 'coming of age' is when you carry your helmet home in two or more pieces.....


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> You must have had one really bad fall that was entirely avoidable and happened because you
> 
> a) were going far too fast to make that bend
> b) were far to lacking in talent to ever make that drop off
> ...


I am the real deal then


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## Cardiac (7 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> But you ain't a real mountain biker if you ride down what you haven't ridden/pushed/carried up first. So there!



Like it!


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## Norm (7 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> c) were overtaken by your own pride a millisecond or two before you lost it


    I just spat custard out! 



GregCollins said:


> d) were unaccountable unable to see that the tree had moved


 Wow, I never thought I'd make it as an MTBer but I can tick this one just cycling along the Thames. 

The first bit is easy, I was unable to see because of the amount of rain. Had I thought about it, I would have realised that the rain would make the branches heavier so the stuff that I rode under the day before would be perfectly at helmet level.


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## Globalti (8 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> Bikes are fun in the snow too
> 
> Coming from a mountaineering background like you though I am always disappointed/shocked at the complete absence of mountain craft in the mountain biking magazines. You'll see nothing in them about carrying a survival bag and whistle & torch, compass and map reading skills, clothing etc that you would in the mountaineering magazine. Most mountain bikers set off woefully unprepared IMO.



Maps? I really don't think maps are part of the scene any more. You either load the route onto a GPS or you follow arrows around a trail centre.

That said, I have noticed an increasing amount of discussion on Singletrack about Scotland - there is more interest in getting out into the wild and riding some quite long remote routes. My guess is that these are people who have been to the Alps and seen the potential of the MTB as a means of covering long distances in the mountains. I would hope that most of them do carry maps and compasses and know how to use them.

Many years ago we gave away an old greenhouse and the first people to respond to our newspaper ad were a family who turned out to be survivalists. They came to collect the greenhouse and we got chatting. The teenage son was absolutely _*amazed*_ to discover that maps existed and when I showed him his own farmhouse on the 1:25,000 map he was thrilled. His parents didn't seem so enthusiastic; I think they were unhappy that the son had given me the whereabouts of their place and they were even less happy when we said we would drive up in our Landy and check that they had actually re-erected the greenhouse! Some weeks later we did go up; we found a huge earth berm about 15 feet high around the farm, the top of the roof just about visible from a distance. At the end of the track was a black steel gate about 15' high and a notice that said: "Visitors, please sound your horn and wait. If nobody comes, please leave." The place is just above Todmorden, if anybody fancies paying them a visit!


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## Alembicbassman (8 Aug 2011)

Todmorden - They have a society that looks out for aliens there.


http://www.skytrackers.com/tag/todmorden/


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## Globalti (8 Aug 2011)

They still point at aircraft in Burnley.


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## Red Light (8 Aug 2011)

Globalti said:


> Maps? I really don't think maps are part of the scene any more. You either load the route onto a GPS or you follow arrows around a trail centre.



Maps and compass are much more useful than GPS and they work when the batteries are flat.


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## gaz (8 Aug 2011)

Angelfishsolo said:


> IMHO - A person becomes a MTBr when they ride a bike on anything more technically challenging the forestry fire roads.



Even if they do it on a BSO?


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## Red Light (8 Aug 2011)

gaz said:


> Even if they do it on a BSO?



I was walking in the Lakes yesterday and an elderly guy came down the track on a touring bike with mudguards and dropped off down a gully I would think twice about on my mountain bike. I suspect a Rough Stuff Fellow but is he not a mountain biker.


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Aug 2011)

Globalti said:


> Maps? I really don't think maps are part of the scene any more. You either load the route onto a GPS or you follow arrows around a trail centre.
> 
> That said, I have noticed an increasing amount of discussion on Singletrack about Scotland - there is more interest in getting out into the wild and riding some quite long remote routes. My guess is that these are people who have been to the Alps and seen the potential of the MTB as a means of covering long distances in the mountains. *I would hope that most of them do carry maps and compasses and know how to use them.*



You just know that isn't going to happen.... they graduate from UK trail centres to guided group alpine mtb holidays to the highlands? Yikes.

In my view the tech hasn't quite reached the state of reliability or battery life (I use an Etrex which means easy swap batteries but no OS maps) to do without maps even if only a 1:50,0000 jobbie to show the roads. But for me a bike part of the attraction is to sometimes dispense with a route guide or preplanned route on the GPS and just ride the damn thing following the ground with a bit of help from 1:25000 OS map..... "what's up there?", "I wonder where this goes?", "does this join up with that?". "oh well another climb to a dead end, going down will be fun"


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## Alembicbassman (8 Aug 2011)

I did 34 miles in the Peaks on Sunday with an OS map and my MTB I had a brief idea of where I wanted to go, but no planned route. I have walked there for over a year and know how to read a map. I am a bit of a Luddite, I don't like technology much, especially when it won't work. Many devices will lose a signal in gulleys and valleys. This ride had tunnels too. https://www.cyclechat.net/

I also carry tyre levers, puncture pack and hand pump - no slime, no CO2


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## GrumpyGregry (8 Aug 2011)

Alembicbassman said:


> I did 34 miles in the Peaks on Sunday with an OS map and my MTB I had a brief idea of where I wanted to go, but no planned route. I have walked there for over a year and know how to read a map. I am a bit of a Luddite, I don't like technology much, especially when it won't work. Many devices will lose a signal in gulleys and valleys. This ride had tunnels too. http://www.cyclechat..._1#entry1788072
> 
> I also carry tyre levers, puncture pack and hand pump - no slime, no CO2



I'm a recent convert to CO2 but Mr Bassman I like your style!


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## Globalti (8 Aug 2011)

I love maps and have a huge collection especially of the brilliant 1 in 25,000 OS maps. I have spent many a happy hour studying maps and working out routes, which I then go and ride. 

Somebody once said that viewing a map on a handheld device is like viewing it through a rolled-up tube; you only see the bits in your immediate area and you miss all the fascinating information around you. 

For other map lovers, the French IGN maps of the Alps in 1:10,000 scale are absolutely stunning, we have all of them and they look beautiful framed. Here: IGN


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## GilesM (8 Aug 2011)

Globalti said:


> I love maps and have a huge collection especially of the brilliant 1 in 25,000 OS maps. I have spent many a happy hour studying maps and working out routes, which I then go and ride.
> 
> Somebody once said that viewing a map on a handheld device is like viewing it through a rolled-up tube; you only see the bits in your immediate area and you miss all the fascinating information around you.
> 
> For other map lovers, the French IGN maps of the Alps in 1:10,000 scale are absolutely stunning, we have all of them and they look beautiful framed. Here: IGN



Another map lover here, and the OS 1:25,000 are perfect, pure art. I'll have to look intot he IGN alpine ones sound good.


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## GilesM (8 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> I'm a recent convert to CO2 but Mr Bassman I like your style!



Had a go with CO2, but not really impressed, just ordered the longest (I think) pump I can get in my Camelbak.


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## Rhythm Thief (9 Aug 2011)

Globalti said:


> Somebody once said that viewing a map on a handheld device is like viewing it through a rolled-up tube; you only see the bits in your immediate area and you miss all the fascinating information around you.



This is straying off topic, but I agree with this. Sat Navs and GPS devices have their uses, but they're just not as ..._ good_ as maps. I still navigate by A-Zs in the lorry, and I'd never consider going cycling (1:50 000) or walking (1:25 000) anywhere new without the appropriate OS maps.


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## Cubist (10 Aug 2011)

Rhythm Thief said:


> This is straying off topic, but I agree with this. Sat Navs and GPS devices have their uses, but they're just not as ..._ good_ as maps. I still navigate by A-Zs in the lorry, and I'd never consider going cycling (1:50 000) or walking (1:25 000) anywhere new without the appropriate OS maps.



Bit of a laugh really, but we've just got back from the Languedoc area of the Midi. I went into a decent bike shop and asked about local trails etc. The owner smiled and said that the French MTBers used GPS to find the good stuff, but did point to a couple of areas that had some decent trails. After a few minutes of chatting I had determined that there was no problem riding on any type of path or track in terms of access etc. I then went and bought a 1:25000 map. 

I then mapped out a 20km loop and Cubester and I set off to ride it. An awesome mix of singletrack and some pretty sketchy paths and tracks, but at one point we had missed a couple of turns, and not all the paths were marked on the map. We found a group of "men of a certain age" on carbon susser XCs who looked at Cubester's Ragley in awe, and visibly turned their noses up at my Cube..... I then asked one of them to show me where we were on the map. I had a good idea, but just wanted to confirm. He joyfully turned to his GPS and checked the coordinates onto the map. He pointed out an area of flat open farmland exactly two squares to the west of the densely wooded hilltop we were actually standing on. So, in answer to your map ideals RT, I think I'll stick with maps for a bit and leave GPS to the experts.......


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## Ticktockmy (11 Aug 2011)

Red Light said:


> There are too many vertical scramble down sections with no landing zone to be ridable on Swirrel and Striding Edges even for Danny Macaskill.



I reakon he could do Swirrel but Striding edge..LOL


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