# Chainless bike



## DJ (26 Oct 2008)

Sorry if this has been aired before,I found this bike drive system unusual and interesting. 

http://www.dynamicbicycles.com


I wonder if it will become popular?


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## mickle (26 Oct 2008)

There is some very misleading information on their site. Shaft drives are inefficient, they'll never catch on.


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## Gareth (26 Oct 2008)

I don't see why they should not become popular. I like the look of the tempo 8, and would consider purchasing one if they were available here in the UK.

Initially, I was impressed with Christini's all wheel drive bike that was released last year. But on closer inspection I did not lke the open gearing transmitting the drive to the front wheel. I thought this a little too exposed to dirt and grit let alone the bits & pieces of the rider.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/adventures/1276766.html


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## Fab Foodie (26 Oct 2008)

Shaft drive bikes have been around for donkeys years. There's a good reason why you don't see many about (refer to Mickle's post). The chain, crude and cruddy as it is is very very efficient, also light and simple.


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## DJ (27 Oct 2008)

Thanks for the link to the Christini bike Gareth. That was interesting too,didnt like the articles maeketing approach though!


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## DJ (27 Oct 2008)

Fab Foodie said:


> Shaft drive bikes have been around for donkeys years. There's a good reason why you don't see many about (refer to Mickle's post). The chain, crude and cruddy as it is is very very efficient, also light and simple.




I hear what you are saying , I would like to try one though,


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## mickle (27 Oct 2008)

Gareth said:


> I don't see why they should not become popular. I like the look of the tempo 8, and would consider purchasing one if they were available here in the UK.
> 
> Initially, I was impressed with Christini's all wheel drive bike that was released last year. But on closer inspection I did not lke the open gearing transmitting the drive to the front wheel. I thought this a little too exposed to dirt and grit let alone the bits & pieces of the rider.
> 
> http://www.popularmechanics.com/outdoors/adventures/1276766.html


That's been around since at least 2000 and it's not the first, there was a similar abortion knocking around ten years earlier.

Shaft drive bikes are available in the UK; http://www.zerocycles.co.uk/bikes.php


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## TheDoctor (27 Oct 2008)

Wot Mickle said.
Anyone who reckons they've got something new and innovative probably hasn't done enough research. Shaft / belt drives, automatic / electronic or CVT gears, all been done before.


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## mickle (27 Oct 2008)

I once entered a magazine competition to design a new logo for the Deal Drive automatic transmission. Months later I read that they had gone bust and the accompanying picture had my bloody logo on it! These things come and go as one idiot industrial designer after another imagines he can change a hundred years cycling overnight. There are a few notable exceptions such as Schlumph and Rohloff, really sound products, but history is littered with failed cycling 'innovations'. Shaft drive, oval chainrings, two wheel drive, solutions looking for problems which don't exist.


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## Ivan Ardon (27 Oct 2008)

"Our shaft drive is designed to have twice the life expectancy of a chain under comparable riding conditions."

Is that all? I wonder what the replacement costs are?


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## TheDoctor (27 Oct 2008)

Must be almost time for L shaped cranks to make a comeback...


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## mickle (27 Oct 2008)

Ivan Ardon said:


> "Our shaft drive is designed to have twice the life expectancy of a chain under comparable riding conditions."
> 
> Is that all? I wonder what the replacement costs are?



Good point.


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## Monkey Spanner (27 Oct 2008)

Chainless. Pointless?

http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/b/pages/2009-products/utility/houseblend-crosstown.php


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## Gareth (28 Oct 2008)

OK, So what are, and where are the inefficencies in a shaft driven bicycle?


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## Gareth (29 Oct 2008)

Hmmmmmmm! Just as I thought, the shaft drive inefficentices that everyone are going are just a myth. 

I don't dispute that a bicycle's chain drive system is both effective and efficent. However, in these enlightened times, I think that the majority has been blinkered by past poor quality and performing systems. With the availability of modern materials and excellent quality bearings, that not only is a shaft drive system effective, but it is also the way forward.


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## Rhythm Thief (29 Oct 2008)

I don't understand why you say that. I have no axe to grind either way here, but I have to say that in over 25 years (on and off) of reasonably regular cycling, I've never had the slightest problem with a standard derailleur and chain system. Certainly no problems big enough to make me think "why, blast this infernal chain to buggeration! If only there was some kind of chainless bicycle that would alleviate the need for this oily Judas!"


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## Fab Foodie (29 Oct 2008)

Gareth said:


> Hmmmmmmm! Just as I thought, the shaft drive inefficentices that everyone are going are just a myth.
> 
> I don't dispute that a bicycle's chain drive system is both effective and efficent. However, in these enlightened times, I think that the majority has been blinkered by past poor quality and performing systems. With the availability of modern materials and excellent quality bearings, that not only is a shaft drive system effective, but it is also the way forward.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-driven_bicycle


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## mickle (30 Oct 2008)

Heavier, less efficient, more expensive, requires a dedicated frame (with perfect alighnment) and may only be used with infernal hub gears whose gear ratios cannot be changed. Any one of these reasons is enough for me to dismiss shaft drive for cycles. 

And *ugly*.


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## Hilldodger (30 Oct 2008)

_Heavier, less efficient, more expensive, requires a dedicated frame _

Sounds like a lot of recumbents


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## Niall Estick (30 Oct 2008)

Gareth said:


> OK, So what are, and where are the inefficencies in a shaft driven bicycle?




I'm no engineer but look at the number of ways a shaft drive has to convert rotational forces. A chain is relatively direct in conerting power at the crank to power at the wheel.


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## Hilldodger (30 Oct 2008)

A shaft drive will always work with the same efficiency.

A chain drive requires regular cleaning and maintenance to be kept in top condition and working properly. And a lot of people do't do that.


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## byegad (31 Oct 2008)

Like airless tyres shaft driven bikes keep getting reinvented. The losses are in the bevel gears needed to translate the rotation through 90 degrees art each end of the shaft. There is also a recurrent problem with rear wheel removal and refitting in getting the rear bevel engaged correctly, any misalignment in the engagement comes at a high efficiency cost.


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## jack the lad (31 Oct 2008)

One reason it may never have caught on is that, as far as I can see, very little thought has gone into original bike design which takes full advantage of chainlessness. They are just normal bikes but with shaft drive instead of a chain, so there's no benefit to trade off for the extra weight, loss of efficiency and extra difficulty in mending p*nctures. The classic 'solution looking for a problem'.

However, there is at least one problem that chainless bikes might be a solution to - One of the main reasons why I bought a folder was to stop chain muck getting all over me and over Mrs J's car from having to remove and refit wheels when I carried a full size bike to commute the few miles between her work and mine. I chose a Brompton over other options in large part cos all the mucky bits end up in the middle out of the way. 

So there's a potential market with people like me for oil stain free chainless folding bikes, especially if you can make a realistic claim of 'maintenance free'. Run the shaft drive inside a single-sided chainstay and you deal with the wheel removal problem and add very little extra weight. Go for a single sided front fork too while you are at it and you could have a very narrow folded package. 

Single sided chainstays and forks would make a lot of sense for making p*ncture repair easier on full size non-folding bikes too, especially with hub gears. Although there's no reason why it couldn't be done with chain driven bikes, you don't get the 'clean' benefit unless you fully enclose the chain. That always seems to look old-fashioned and even if you get over that it must result in a necessarily chunky appearance. This would be even more dominating on a small wheel folder and you wouldn't get such a potentially compact fold as you could with a shaft drive. 

There are people who would trade some efficiency in return for perceived style points or who would be unconcerned about maximising efficiency if there were other selling points to attract them to a bicycle. If efficiency was high on the list of essential bicycle features there wouldn't be so many people riding round on heavy full suspension mtb's with under-inflated chunky tyres!


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## skwerl (7 Nov 2008)

You're all wrong. After all, to quote Terry D from the website - "The bike is truly one of the (if not the) nicest bikes available to ride and look at on the market today".
What more evidence do you need?


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## drkickstand (10 Nov 2008)

There is a lot of positive info and feedback on the belt drive systems on folding bikes. I understand that a lot of the main a manufacturers have offerings in the pipeline for full size bikes.


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## Hilldodger (5 Dec 2008)

Riding a chainless bike didn't stop Major Taylor - one of the all time great cyclists - from being successful


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## mickle (5 Dec 2008)

Hilldodger said:


> Riding a chainless bike didn't stop Major Taylor - one of the all time great cyclists - from being successful



Yeah but he was probably successful in spite of the drivetrain.


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## tyred (5 Dec 2008)

I don't like the idea of a shaft drive for the reasons mentioned but would be interested in trying a toothed drive belt, similar to those used for the camshaft in most overhead cam engines. It should work efficiently with hub gears (which I like anyway). The only bug with the normal diamond framed bike is how the hell do you get the belt of and on as the chainstays need to pass through it?


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## jack the lad (5 Dec 2008)

When I bought my Mercedes I wanted to find out when the cambelt change was required as it would probably be many £££s and due quite soon. However, I discovered that they use a proper metal chain which normally outlasts the life of the engine (and bear in mind that many mercs go to 300,000 miles plus). 

If this is the case with a car engine, what benefits can there possibly be in using cambelts to drive bikes, instead of proper metal chains?


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## tyred (5 Dec 2008)

There are a few differences. The timing chain of an engine is completely sealed from the outiside world for one thing. I've also seen engines where the timing chain has broken at relatievely low mileage (a BMW 325TD that my uncle had being one such expensive case). A cam belt drive should be much quieter and smoother than a chain drive, doesn't need oiled and shouldn't stretch in use. Even safe and sound inside the engine, chains stretch (listen to the racket from an old BMC A series/Ford Crossflow or Peugeot/Simca engine can make if you don't believe me). If the tension is set right, the belt will deteriorate with age rather than use. Also, for people who ride in the rain, it won't rust or need to be covered in messy oils to prevent it.


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## Arch (9 Dec 2008)

According to Mike Burrows, (whose opinion I tend to trust), belts are good for high speed/low torque applications (like cambelts), and chains for the reverse (bikes).


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## tyred (9 Dec 2008)

It's just I've always fancied the idea of a belt driven bike for the sake of trying something different. Maybe one day I'll build my own and see what happens...


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## Arch (10 Dec 2008)

tyred said:


> It's just I've always fancied the idea of a belt driven bike for the sake of trying something different. Maybe one day I'll build my own and see what happens...



Ah well, there's nothing wrong with trying something different.


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## tyred (10 Dec 2008)

It just leaves the question of how do you get the belt on without taking a hacksaw to the chainstay....


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## mickle (10 Dec 2008)

Elevated chainstays.


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## tyred (10 Dec 2008)

True but I would need to buy yet another frame. I was hoping to use the old Raleigh sports I have lying in the garage as a guinea pig.


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## mickle (10 Dec 2008)

tyred said:


> True but I would need to buy yet another frame. I was hoping to use the old Raleigh sports I have lying in the garage as a guinea pig.



Well you can't, unless you take a hacksaw to em.


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## Hairyredhead (5 Jan 2009)

I own a shaft drive bicycle, supplied by zero bicycles in the UK. I have used the bicycle for my 22 mile per day commute and can report that I can perceive no difference between riding the Zero and my ladies Raleigh. The bike is designed to be a commuter bike, so comparing it with anything other is not really fair. 

I love the shaft drive concept and hub gears, they are so clean, they don't need constant interference, they don't have a chain to fall off, you can change gear at standstill and they make the bike look clean and unfussy. For commuting, I doubt that many people would want more than 7 gears. Replacing the rear wheel is also fairly easy and clean!

I think that the main reason the bikes won't catch on is because they are expensive and they aren't supplied by many shops.


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## Night Train (6 Jan 2009)

There are ways of redesigning the frame to take a belt drive. It is also possible to have a join in a belt for a DF.

My Harley Davidson was belt drive and to change the belt all the transmission and rear suspension had to come apart. They sold emergency replacement belts that were joined with pins. One cut end of the belt was cut into a long tapering point and the other end was a long tapering V that matched up. The joint was secured by small pins that were pushed through each of the belt teeth in the joint bridging the two parts of the V joint. Must have used 15 or so pins for the length of the joint.


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## betelorg (9 Jan 2009)

Hey is this the end of oily trousers! I want one!


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## TheCyclingRooster (10 Dec 2009)

Hi to you all,give it a chance to attract the attention of the Titanium & Carbon Fibre Engineers and their equivalents of Double Glazing Salesmen.They will develop the system lighter than the lightest chain and regular drive train with all of is associated components and convince you to part with your hard earned/aquired !!wonga in that you have got to have it(conscience) to further the Cause of the Carbon Footprint Reduction Programme.Then when everone has thrown their tried & trusted steeds in the skip or off loaded them on E'bay to the less wll healed they will develop a little engine for them that will run on urine or some other waste matter from the riders body(logged on with a micro chip) and then Another Stealth Tax is Born.In the meantime my Bianchi is my contribution to The Carbon Footprint Reduction Programme.Happy & Safe Riding to you All.


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## Yellow Fang (10 Dec 2009)

I noticed those OYBikes that you can rent outside some hotels had shaft drives. I'd have liked to have had a go, but I couldn't be bothered registering. I suppose the main point of a drive shaft is to save your trousers getting oily. Sadly the scheme doesn't really seem to have taken off. According to the website, they're only to be found in Cardiff, and a few places in Reading and Farnorough.


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## shouldbeinbed (10 Dec 2009)

tyred said:


> There are a few differences. The timing chain of an engine is completely sealed from the outiside world for one thing. I've also seen engines where the timing chain has broken at relatievely low mileage (a BMW 325TD that my uncle had being one such expensive case). A cam belt drive should be much quieter and smoother than a chain drive, doesn't need oiled and shouldn't stretch in use. Even safe and sound inside the engine, chains stretch (listen to the racket from an old BMC A series/Ford Crossflow or Peugeot/Simca engine can make if you don't believe me). If the tension is set right, the belt will deteriorate with age rather than use. Also, for people who ride in the rain, it won't rust or need to be covered in messy oils to prevent it.



+1 I once had a Lada with a chain cam belt. once it began to wear and lose tension it sounded like I was chain whipping a metal dustbin every time I drove it.


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## Norm (10 Dec 2009)

Yellow Fang said:


> I noticed those OYBikes that you can rent outside some hotels had shaft drives.


I have to travel to Green Park once a month for meetings over there. On 15th November, Dell posted reference to the place on the wind turbine thread (post 21) and I was heading there the next day for the meeting. By coincidence, YF posts a reference to it tonight and I'll be there in the morning.

I'll be busy for most of the day, I'll see if I can grab a chance to get out on one of those things.


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