# Next year................



## dellzeqq (4 Sep 2013)

....................I am going to re-invent the time trial


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## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2013)

Good man. It's about time ....


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## User10571 (4 Sep 2013)

That'll appeal to some, whilst shaking the foundations of others.....


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## PaulRide (4 Sep 2013)

I have been wondering what new boundaries DZ would be pushing, now that the world seems to be catching on to the spirit of the FNRttC (and, in some cases, milking that spirit). I'll stay tuned - my valves are warmed up and glowing green in anticipation.


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## StuAff (4 Sep 2013)

Does this new time trial format involve multiple ferry crossings, gravel, bollards, and drunken blokes wandering across the road?


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iizNf8sYR0M


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## The Jogger (5 Sep 2013)

A new Chapter opens?


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

The Jogger said:


> A new Chapter opens?


I'm going High Concept


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkVwJmwKQUY

let me put it this way. The FNRttC was supposed to be a literary endeavour. It failed in that respect, although it succeeded in some others. It took me a long time to work out that the brand had failed as well because I had applied images to the product. I've learnt. I'm going to come up with the images (which might not be images at all, but sounds or gestures) and reverse the product in to it. It's going to be the same things - mysterious, romantic, and wrapped around smiles, but it's also going to be cool. In fact it will be cycling's Birth of the Cool.


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## anothersam (5 Sep 2013)

Your pitch surpasseth all understanding. I like it.


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

FNTTTTC ?


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> ....................I am going to re-invent the time trial





dellzeqq said:


> The FNRttC was supposed to be a literary endeavour.


Speed reading on a bike, in the dark ?
Audio books on a bike ?



dellzeqq said:


> In fact it will be cycling's Birth of the Cool.


Jazz on a bike ? "Miles" Davis


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## PaulRide (5 Sep 2013)




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## theclaud (5 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Speed reading on a bike, in the dark ?
> Audio books on a bike ?
> 
> 
> Jazz on a bike ? "Miles" Davis



Ahem! _Kilometres _Davis. New EU rules.

I think I might be in the wrong forum.


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## Steve Jones (5 Sep 2013)

So this is the cumulative effect of years of two-wheeled sleep deprivation. There had to be side effects.


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

theclaud said:


> Ahem! _Kilometres _Davis. New EU rules.
> 
> I think I might be in the wrong forum.


yeah, i think you kind of blew it here


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## Tim Hall (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iizNf8sYR0M



That a three ninety six? Nope, four fifty four
That a 700 x 25c? Nope, 25-622.


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## deptfordmarmoset (5 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> FNTTTTC ?


Here, have another T


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## Davywalnuts (5 Sep 2013)

Do I need to save for a new bike?


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## mmmmartin (5 Sep 2013)

Dell
Have you been drinking diesel oil again?


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

FNR_*TT*
_
Imagine a time trial in which the expression on people's faces mattered more than the times, but, nonetheless, could be nothing other than a time trial. 

Imagine a time trial in which beauty was more important than speed, but, nonetheless, could be nothing other than a time trial.

Imagine a time trial that you didn't want to end.

Am I selling it?


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

and then...........

Imagine a time trial which wasn't a time trial, but an image of a time trial.

How am I doing?


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## deptfordmarmoset (5 Sep 2013)

Will we have to smile going uphill or will grimaces do?


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> and then...........
> 
> Imagine a time trial which wasn't a time trial, but an image of a time trial.
> 
> How am I doing?


i had that experience watching stage 11 of the vuelta on eurosport yesterday

what sort of image have you got of a route ?


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## hatler (5 Sep 2013)

Is this an allusion to the end of the FNRttC ?

Sheesh, I hope not.


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

hatler said:


> Is this an allusion to the end of the FNRttC ?
> 
> Sheesh, I hope not.


no, but it is time to give the club a bit of a makeover


thom said:


> what sort of image have you got of a route ?


 a fair question. And this might be one of many answers.


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## Davywalnuts (5 Sep 2013)

Hmmmm..

Am I guessing also, that a FnrTT rules would also dictate no mudguards, panniers, rucksack or any drag factoring garb?


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## Cheddar George (5 Sep 2013)

So would you finish the TT in a super fast time and then have to wait nervously for the judges to decide your points for artistic merit ?

If not then why not ?


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

ok. You're all being far too unimaginative. Answer me this. What kind of a time trial starts with a kiss and ends with a tub of ice-cream?


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## Davidc (5 Sep 2013)

The new corporate headquarters for all things FNR will be designed by Dell.

It will be shaped and glazed to concentrate moonlight and starlight to melt cars and set fire to lemons.


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> ok. You're all being far too unimaginative. Answer me this. What kind of a time trial starts with a kiss and ends with a tub of ice-cream?


The image you have provided sounds like a photo negative. A reversal, an inveresal. You want to reverse everything - light to dark (day to night), podium girls at the beginning, sustenance at the end.
Anxiety to become inner peace. Jeans for lycra, chronology out of the window !
The race of truth to become the saunter of deception !


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## Cheddar George (5 Sep 2013)

If not a literary endeavour, then perhaps a cinematic endeavour.

I googled "what starts with a kiss", apparently Hot Chocolate's biggest hit did.


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

User3094 said:


> Christ ... its only a bike ride.
> 
> In the dark.
> 
> Get over yourselves


yeah. Is that why you're scared to go on it?

Cheddar George and Thom are, of course, smack on the money. Instead of doing something and then describing it, I'm trying to describe something that we can do. It's just that the description is a little imprecise. Obvs.


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## Steve Jones (5 Sep 2013)

I suppose you could put time itself on trial for producing all that entropy. What's its excuse? Is it going to call Boltzmann as an expert witness? Which way will the arrow point?


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## User482 (5 Sep 2013)

Steve Jones said:


> I suppose you could put time itself on trial for producing all that entropy. What's its excuse? Is it going to call Boltzmann as an expert witness? Which way will the arrow point?



So you're not just an evolutionary biologist!


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

OK (**** this is difficult). Think this thing through as a branding exercise (see post above). First you develop the brand. Then you fit the product to the brand. Which is, by the way, an entirely legitimate exercise, in that the brand will represent the wishes and hopes of the participants in a far finer, more immediate way, albeit that the images (which, to repeat, may not be images at all) might be entirely disconnected with anything that any of us would associate with a time trial, or even a bicycle ride.

It's a different way of giving people what they want before they know they want it. Now.........is that so very difficult?

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/07/26/reviews/980726.26silmant.html was the book that prompted me to stretch what was the Harwich ride on to Southwold. No bikes involved, and I doubt that more than two of us on last week's edition had read it. Was it worthwhile? Did that inspiration affect the experience of the other thirteen? You bet your buns it did.


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## redfalo (5 Sep 2013)

You really must stop sniffing glue, Dell


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## Tim Hall (5 Sep 2013)

Umm, dellers, in my line of work I occasionally stumble across websites promoting architectural practices. Paradigms are scattered around like petals from a pottpouri. Hidden buttons have to be clicked just to gain access. Synergy features quite strongly. You get the picture.

I have to go and ride my bike just to to clear my head afterwards.

Can I just turn up and ride next year, once you've rebranded sufficiently? I can bring my own ice cream if necessary.


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

One clear difference with FNRTTC is the freedom of destination.
Literary destinations within reach of London. 
London itself ? It must be great to cycle the city on quiet roads.
Team time trial treasure hunts !
Murder mystery on wheels - Oxford & Morse ?
Canterbury tales - a pilgrimage through Kent


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## srw (5 Sep 2013)

Assuming you've read Sebald, then at least three of us had. 

I think I get where you're going, but the time trial references elude me - they're about pain, and individualism, and competition. Maybe if you talked about a Lairt Emit you might be clearer. 

The interesting thing about branding (he says, as his employers develop a UK brand for the first time in 10 years) is that's it's a curious mix of fluff and numbers that somehow adds up to more than the some of its parts.


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> Assuming you've read Sebald, then at least three of us had.
> 
> I think I get where you're going, but the time trial references elude me - they're about *pain, and individualism, and competition*. Maybe if you talked about a Lairt Emit you might be clearer.
> 
> The interesting thing about branding (he says, as his employers develop a UK brand for the first time in 10 years) is that's it's a curious mix of fluff and numbers that somehow adds up to more than the some of its parts.


quite. But what if a time trial could be about joy and friendship? What if the time was neither here nor there? What if the act, the excitement, the now was the purpose and joy of it rather than a number on a list after the event?

I've done two time trials in my life. They were no fun. I cannot see the point in sportives. But I do like to ride as fast as I can. And I especially like to ride as fast as I can when all the cares about where and why are taken away. So that's my intention - or at least the actual rather than the not-so-actual. We get to rush, one after the other, down a road. It's a load of fun, because the road is a load of fun. We get to scream along a road as fast as we can for a distance that is sufficient to raise the spirits, to make our breath demonic, but not so far that we are grinding our teeth away. And we're there for each other - we send each other off with a cheer. We arrive to cheers. Along the way people with flags and lights encourage us. It's wild and uncouth and yet, if the truth were known, not particularly testing. A time trial without helmets, or silly wheels, where you can wear lycra or not, ride a Brompton if it pleases you, and not worry about energy drinks. And have a party afterwards.

But............we are imaginative beings. We imagine ourselves whizzing down a road, turning a corner at speed, the wind in our hair (or whatever). We fix our sensations on to images in order to memorialise them, or to make them part of us. The image lasts when the sensation is over. So, if a few numbers on a bit of paper representing a time is a paltry image, an unworthy image, what form should the images that we are left with take? And should they be images after the event or before? That's where the branding comes in - we've attempted over the last eight years to describe, in words and images, the story of our rides, but, increasingly I'm of the view that those after images don't actually tell the story, and that the story can only be ridden - heaven knows we've been trying to capture what we do in type on these very boards for long enough and, if we're honest that capturing is not so very wonderful. So why not have the images before the ride and use them to enliven and make more apparent our experiences on the ride?

So (once again).....when I'm whizzing along at night on my own, this might sort of describe the ride. There's a kind of rush, and yet a kind of stillness. For somebody else it would be something different.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkVwJmwKQUY


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## PaulRide (5 Sep 2013)

I have long suspected I had the wrong avatar.


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## Steve Jones (5 Sep 2013)

User482 said:


> So you're not just an evolutionary biologist!



Steve Joneses are like bosons, not fermions. We are, at least in principle, individually distinguishable.


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## craigwend (5 Sep 2013)

*Time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time is a dimension in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them.Time has long been a major subject of study in religion, philosophy, and science, but defining it in a manner applicable to all fields without circularity has consistently eluded scholars.[Nevertheless, diverse fields such as business, industry, sports, the sciences, and the performing arts all incorporate some notion of time into their respective measuring systems
& 
Trial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial  (In law) is a coming together of parties to a dispute, to present information (in the form of evidence) in a tribunal, a formal setting with the authority to adjudicate claims or disputes. *


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## Steve Jones (5 Sep 2013)

Beginning to think this might be the issue

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Full-English-Pedalling-Mid-life/dp/0955660203/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378400184&sr=8-1&keywords=pedalling through England, mid-life crisis


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## PaulRide (5 Sep 2013)

I've just detected a faint glimmer of light/recognition of what you're getting at here, DZ. But just as our images, memories and words fail, as narrow and mediated representations of what the ride was, won't there be a mismatch between the images, words and thoughts that we line up in advance of a ride and the ride itself? 

Having said that, I like the idea that there's more to preparing for a ride than checking tyres for glass, buying another spare inner tube and ditching the mudguards, and it would be great if that expectation and preparation (homework?) could overcome the sense of embarking on an increasingly familiar exercise that involves arriving at HPC at the right time (unless you're User10571...) and completing the ride in purely practical terms as a bike ride.

Many of the places that you've led us through are infused with some sort of strangeness, usually accentuated by the darkness or half light or an unfamiliar quiet. I'm sure the military canal beyond Gravesend is a dreary stretch in broad daylight, but the timing of marsh frogs, reed warblers, nightingale, ISS and iridium flare and the mash-up of nature, history and human reworking of the landscape made it an experience that I know was intense at the time but I'd not hope to capture it or represent it in a meaningful way. You'll also recall my irrational delight in the descent to Arundel on one of your Felpham excursions. And also the rolling thunder of the West Wittering trip that GeraldC filmed, including the blast of A3 as well as the final attack on way to the boat at Itchenor. There's no way to bottle that experience, but also no way to direct in advance that it is going to happen in that particular way, not least because of the variability and diversity of the people involved.


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## dellzeqq (5 Sep 2013)

PaulRide said:


> I've just detected a faint glimmer of light/recognition of what you're getting at here, DZ. But just as our images, memories and words fail, as narrow and mediated representations of what the ride was, won't there be a mismatch between the images, words and thoughts that we line up in advance of a ride and the ride itself?.


possibly. But that's where the idea of the time trial came from. It's such a simple thing. It's a sheer joy of speed kind of thing (albeit that some of us will think of twelve miles an hour as speedy and others will be whizzing along at twice that). And what I'm hoping for is that the simplicity affords a greater sense of something shared.

I was encouraged a little by the reaction to this.

_a lot has been written, and all of it wonderful to read. I'm going to indulge myself.....

the run down to Goole is what it is. For what it's worth I like it a great deal. I like the flatness, the big sky, the far-off lights of the power station, and (while they would not be obvious to those who've not done it at night) I like the turbines, which are, without question, changing the face of that part of the world. I like Goole. It might be an acquired taste, but if you've lately been in possession of teenagers, there's something charming about the boys and girls wending their way home to parents tucked up in bed. I like the steel bridges and the ships in the middle of town, and the dampness of the air that probably plays havoc with the lungs of the elderly.

But....most of all I like the Isle of Axholme. It's the flatness, the absence of hedges, the geometry of the roads dictated by the flow of water at high tide, the remnants of the past struggles that bear a bit of reading up. I know every yard of tarmac that arcs from Swinefleet east and south to Garthorpe and I know that if the weather is kind the flatness and the bends make it the kind of road that is thrilling to ride at speed..

So, having despatched Team Fast in the hope of making our date at Garthorpe more or less to the minute, I lead the rest of the ride out of Goole, along the A161, and to the turn at Swinefleet, where a chilled Charlie was waiting to direct traffic. Having sorted out a relief I found myself on the back road with one other. The wind was next to nothing. The road was open. It was a float morning, but without the morning. The bike had an idea.

Those of you who doubt the bike should have been there. A touch on the pedals for three or four revolutions and I was thirty metres clear of my companion. A shift of gear, a nod to the church, and a touch more and the gap simply stretched away. Where the road was broken the bike snaked perhaps an inch, perhaps less to the side of the holes. Where there was the slightest of rises, the bike simply swallowed them and then plunged down the shallow descent, taking another click on the changer. I'd rolled down to Goole on a 53/17. It takes four near-imperceptible shifts to get to 53/13, and that's how the bike wanted it, demanding that I take the tightest corners at a screaming pace, diving from the far side of the road, clipping the apex, before running out to the gravel on the verge, all at the same Mississippi Half-Step Toodle-oo cadence, the kind of cadence that makes the finest team out of saddle, handlebars and pedals.

There's a village halfway shy of Garthorpe, with two blind ninety degree bends. The bike wasn't doing caution. In to the left-hander without so much as a breath on the brakes, then cutting from the right side of the road to the left side before the right-hander, and then, upright, spinning southward, just my front light keeping the moon company. The right and left just north of Garthorpe went the same way, shot surface notwithstanding, and then, in to the village, the houses pressed close to the street, at the kind of pace that would have been just plain uncivilised at a more civilised hour.

I popped in to the village hall, checked the trestles loaded down with sandwiches and cake, and then went back out of the village to the open land, there to wait for the rest of the crew. There are two waymarking spots on the FNRttC worth fighting a duel for - the last one before Faygate and this blank road north of Garthorpe. At Faygate the advancing bike lights shine through the trees Spielberg stylee before they hit the top of the rise, and then cast lines ahead as they come down the hill in to the village. At Garthorpe the lights make a map of the Isle underneath the vast flat plane of the sky. They turn left, turn right, describing the ditches dug so farsightedly in the eighteenth century, The gigantic berm that keeps out the sea is, perhaps, ten feet above the heads of the cyclists, a backdrop of some significance. Sea, sky, straight lines, piercing lights - Kasimir Malevich would have torn his heart out to paint it. My heart soared like a dove as the Fridays hove in to view, two by two, to be accompanied to the crossroads and directed to the village hall, and I suppose that I might have made my way up and down the high street some ten times before Mr. Wow and the Tail End Charlies rolled in to town.

The rest......if I'm honest.... it gets us there. I love those first views of the bridge, and I love the bridge itself. Hull is cool. Cafe Pasaz is the coolest thing in Hull. The train that takes us all the way to Kings Cross is a delight. All of which means nothing without the company, but if you're in great company why not do great stuff? That said.....if, in ten years time I'm leafing through what remains of my memory, it's the ten miles from Goole to Garthorpe I'll call on._


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## Flying Dodo (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> But............we are imaginative beings. We imagine ourselves whizzing down a road, turning a corner at speed, the wind in our hair (or whatever). We fix our sensations on to images in order to memorialise them, or to make them part of us. The image lasts when the sensation is over. So, if a few numbers on a bit of paper representing a time is a paltry image, an unworthy image, what form should the images that we are left with take? And should they be images after the event or before? That's where the branding comes in - we've attempted over the last eight years to describe, in words and images, the story of our rides, but, increasingly I'm of the view that those after images don't actually tell the story, and that the story can only be ridden - heaven knows we've been trying to capture what we do in type on these very boards for long enough and, if we're honest that capturing is not so very wonderful. So why not have the images before the ride and use them to enliven and make more apparent our experiences on the ride?
> 
> So (once again).....when I'm whizzing along at night on my own, this might sort of describe the ride. There's a kind of rush, and yet a kind of stillness. For somebody else it would be something different.



Mmm. I understand the original branding/concept idea. And to be honest, at times I've tried to write eloquently about the journey/experience I've had. However, bearing in mind my first FNRttC was (I think) July or August 2005, there's only so many ways you can express yourself. I wouldn't say I'm jaded by it all, far from it. However in the early days I'd be all hyper in the evening leading up to midnight, double or triple checking I'd got everything, the right clothing, tools, checking train times to London etc. Now, it's as though it's all automated and I do what I have to for preparation, without really thinking about the process. And in some ways it's the same on the actual ride itself. Someone has a puncture - stop - fix - ride on. As for afterwards, there's only so much that can be said, so that's probably why your literary hopes haven't been fulfilled.

I've no idea about the time trial thing or whatever it is. But I'll look forward to it.


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## craigwend (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> possibly.
> I was encouraged a little by the reaction to this. _a lot has been written, and all of it wonderful to read. I'm going to indulge myself.....
> 
> the run down to Goole is what it is...
> ...


 

So do I ...



craigwend said:


> Another fantastic ride , my level of fitness I discovered was questionable... trying to keep up with the 'fast group' (to Gawthorpe from Goole) proved ''impossible' just the odd flashing light in the distance, most of them being marker / buoy lights on the river bank when i 'caught' them up


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## deptfordmarmoset (5 Sep 2013)

When I saw mention of ice cream finishes I thought this was going to be one of those urban nocturnal criterion races.


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## thom (5 Sep 2013)

location location location - an illicit lap of Richmond park in the dark would be good


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## GrumpyGregry (5 Sep 2013)

Writing about FNRttC, and I've done it, describes _facts_ whilst being on a FNRttC describes _truth_.

Other than that I've not a clue what the lot of you are on about. But I'm a bear of very little brain.


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## StuAff (5 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> location location location - an illicit lap of Richmond park in the dark would be good


As long as the cull's not on, you just go through the pedestrian gates. Been through there a few times at night, 'tis fab.


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## StuAff (5 Sep 2013)

If we're doing literary references, if we're time-trialling I want an infinite improbability drive (probably against UCI rules, but what do they know).....


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## slowmotion (5 Sep 2013)

StuAff said:


> As long as the cull's not on, you just go through the pedestrian gates. Been through there a few times at night, 'tis fab.


 It's magic...but watch out of the Kamikaze Badger! He's mean.


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## StuAff (5 Sep 2013)

slowmotion said:


> It's magic...but watch out of the Kamikaze Badger! He's mean.


Oh, and the deer. And Fenton.........


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## ceepeebee (5 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm going High Concept
> 
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkVwJmwKQUY
> ...



Those herbs you found in the kitchen dz.......... May not have been..... Culinary herbs......


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## Fab Foodie (5 Sep 2013)

Is this a good place to mention that I'd like to do a naked night ride that puposely goes through provincial towns and villages at chucking-out time just so se the look of incredulity on the pissed faces? Later as we roll into our early morning destination the look of surprise on the early morning commuters....
OK, I thought not ....


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## anothersam (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> You're all being far too unimaginative.


Welcome to my world.



Davidc said:


> It will be shaped and glazed to concentrate moonlight and starlight to melt cars and set fire to lemons.


Ah, you've been there.



dellzeqq said:


> ...a lot has been written, and all of it wonderful to read...


There are some great posts in _this_ thread, not least your return to Goole, which takes me back to that place where your original vision, and mine, met. Anyway, the past is the past and the future is now:

A bike ride. In the dark. The final frontier.

---

_Some will say you've jumped the shark;
are sniffing glue; catnip, too;
twitching in your middle age - is that a stork or a lark?
dellzeqq: infinite jester of entropy, or midwife to the birth of the true?_


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

I'm with Adam on this. It can get routine, although I prefer the routine to the time around 2008/2009 when I used to worry so much that I really came to hate going on these rides. It's now a kind of night out with friends, which is nice but rarely thrilling. Each year I say to Susie 'right, this is the last year' and each year she says 'but you look so sexy when you give the safety talk', so I keep on, although sometimes I wonder if she really means it. 

So I like to think my way forward to something else. The SuperSpeedy rides were a bit of a letdown, the tours were great but I'm not able to commit to going on tour myself next year, so I'm going for something fresh, youngpeople and generally kickass. Midnight Ridazz watch out!


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## User10571 (6 Sep 2013)

It wouldn't be to your taste, I suspect.


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## redfalo (6 Sep 2013)

I


dellzeqq said:


> Each year I say to Susie 'right, this is the last year' and each year she says 'but you look so sexy when you give the safety talk', so I keep on,



I hope you guys have already gone through this procedure for 2014!?


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## Fab Foodie (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> .... so I'm going for something fresh, youngpeople and generally kickass. Midnight Ridazz watch out!


BSO, Baseball cap and no lights?


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

Fab Foodie said:


> BSO, Baseball cap and no lights?


BSOs good, baseball caps good, lights a must!

check this out....http://www.midnightridazz.com/viewStory.php?storyId=8826


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## Fab Foodie (6 Sep 2013)

User13710 said:


> As long as it not longboards


What's wrong with longboards?


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## deptfordmarmoset (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> BSOs good, baseball caps good, lights a must!
> 
> check this out....http://www.midnightridazz.com/viewStory.php?storyId=8826





> bring what you need to ride, Tubes,Tools,Pump,Beer, Tree,Lights, etc.



Will we all need panniers to carry the trees?


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## Fab Foodie (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> BSOs good, baseball caps good, lights a must!
> 
> check this out....http://www.midnightridazz.com/viewStory.php?storyId=8826




Interesting .... 

The other Abingdon cycle-club OTCC have been using parts of Abingdon airfield for 'race' training. When I last saw them a few weeks back they said they were going to have to stop soon due to the dangers of bunch racing in the dark. I subsequently thought that a 'drag-race' or sprint type race man-on-man would give some good training, competition on the runway without riders coming together. A simple knock-out competition would add to the fun (but hadn't thought about money).

Will we be racing for pink-slips?


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## Fab Foodie (6 Sep 2013)

2636668 said:



> .... cyclist with rack pulling a longboarder in a Rollerball style, work?



It's what we did as kids ....


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## hatler (6 Sep 2013)

If, (and I really hope this doesn't come to pass) the FNRttCs as we know them are to take a dive, pleeeeeease
can we get to the point where we hit 100 rides ?
can we have lots of notice of the last one ?
can I try bringing mini-hatler along ? He'd be devastated if he never made a single one.


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

hatler said:


> If, (and I really hope this doesn't come to pass) the FNRttCs as we know them are to take a dive, pleeeeeease
> can we get to the point where we hit 100 rides ?
> can we have lots of notice of the last one ?
> can I try bringing *mini-hatler* along ? He'd be devastated if he never made a single one.


the use of mini-hatler as emotional blackmail is......................wrong. I think that we're ok for 2014 - Susie has just gone through her collection of lighweight waterproofs, some of which she has never worn, and one of which (there's no need to guess which make) is going back whence it came with it's 115 pound price tag. If she doesn't get to wear them then I'm in trouble.

Oh - I think we're well over the 100 mark.


----------



## hatler (6 Sep 2013)

Understood. Apologies. Before we even attempt a night ride he'd have to prove himself on a daylight London to Brighton, and that's some way off yet.

What will be will be (tra la la).

And which was the 100th ?

And, (no pressure) I for one am already looking forward to the 2014 schedule.


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

2636753 said:


> I'm sure it could get much worse than that.


no it couldn't. Mini-hatler is the absolute ace in the hole. The best reason for the FNRttC to be. Rob knows this, and wheeling him out is the act of a deeply, deeply manipulative individual. Chapeau!

Now - take a look at this. Some of you are going to act all sniffy about it, but I'm afraid I rather admire Rapha's short films. This one is particularly nonsensical, but it sells the gear.

http://www.rapha.cc/the-bryan-chapman-memorial


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## Steve Jones (6 Sep 2013)

You are aware some of the riders in that video you so admire are using mudguards...


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Sep 2013)

User13710 said:


> As long as it not longboards


uphill is rather trying, downhill is rather more fun, my long term goal is to crack 40mph. Bo Peep should do it, circa 2015/6


----------



## GrumpyGregry (6 Sep 2013)

2636687 said:


> It's a good job Greg and I are the same size then.


I have two boards. One is larger, the other less so. It's all relative. And I'm happy to share. But it's a bruising learning curve.


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

Steve Jones said:


> You are aware some of the riders in that video you so admire are using mudguards...


but that's part of the schtick. It feeds in to the grumpy-old-git-erectile-dysfunction Rapha (mens) market (the women's market is altogether younger - go figure). You can bet your bottom dollar that the instant the camera was turned off the cool boys in the movie whipped off their mudguards and facial hair.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Sep 2013)

2636793 said:


> I was thinking about the prospect of towing you.


Me giving you a piggy back would be faster.


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Me giving you a piggy back would be faster.


get a room!

Oh................you did that already......................


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## Steve Jones (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> but that's part of the schtick. It feeds in to the grumpy-old-git-erectile-dysfunction Rapha (mens) market (the women's market is altogether younger - go figure). You can bet your bottom dollar that the instant the camera was turned off the cool boys in the movie whipped off their mudguards and facial hair.



Uhmm - whilst some might think that I fit their male market segment, I have to say that I seem to be overwhelmingly kitted out by stuff from sportsdirect.com, whose multi-media marketing appears to be confined to using royalty-free non-PRS in-store music tracks performed by failed karaoke caterwaulers. When I commented on this to one of their exploited shop staff, he said what I was hearing was among the better. So, it appears, that to be part of the Rapha target market, have to have both taste and show no miserly attributes, so I suspect I fail. Pretty as the video was, my wallet remains unmoved, even if my parsimonious ways leads me to extended periods of discomfort...


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## thom (6 Sep 2013)

Regent's Park - not laps.
Start at either York bridge lights, the SE corner of the outer Circle or somewhere in between. 
Anticlockwise.
Hang a left onto Chester Road, left and do a clockwise loop of the inner circle.
Back on Chester Road, left onto Outer Circle again, wang it up the rise and before the lights and the junction out to Camden Town either
1) stop
2) do a U-turn and crank it up to 11 on the way back towards & past Chester Road, where you stop & keel over !. 
I reckon that's about 3 miles. No traffic lights, quiet roads at night - care needed if doing a U-turn regarding traffic, otherwise, how could the CTC fail to provide insurance for that !?


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Regent's Park - not laps.
> Start at either York bridge lights, the SE corner of the outer Circle or somewhere in between.
> Anticlockwise.
> Hang a left onto Chester Road, left and do a clockwise loop of the inner circle.
> ...


The Regents Park Outer Circle (one lap of) was number 2 on my list,. I'd thought of doing a counterclockwise lap. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the gates are closed at ten.

I'll be talking through the insurance thing with the estimable Rob F at CTC Towers next Wednesday.


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## GrumpyGregry (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> get a room!
> 
> Oh................you did that already......................


Didn't really work out. Stains everywhere.


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## thom (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> The Regents Park Outer Circle (one lap of) was number 2 on my list,. I'd thought of doing a counterclockwise lap. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the gates are closed at ten.
> 
> I'll be talking through the insurance thing with the estimable Rob F at CTC Towers next Wednesday.


http://www.royalparks.org.uk/parks/...-regents-park/opening-times-and-getting-there
They close midnight to 7am, except for residential access...
The irritating thing with laps of R park are the 5 sets of traffic lights, which is why i suggested that route with loop etc. partly as from a viewing point, you see both out & back.

What about using the stretch of tarmac in Hyde Park north of the Serpentine ? start at the SE end for example, wang it along to the car-park bit just before the bridge - do a u-turn and back to the starting point ?


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## StuartG (6 Sep 2013)

Ahem - you forgot to add in Lubetkin's Penguin Pool as the half way refreshment stop ... there is going to be a half way stop?


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## dellzeqq (6 Sep 2013)

User3094 said:


> So 5 pages in and its just a ride around Regents Park in the dark?!


you're never, ever going to work it out.


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## Flying Dodo (6 Sep 2013)

So to summarise where we are, basically a 50-something athletic married man is seeking a new outlet for his night time activities, preferably doing something with young people...........!!!!!!


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## Tim Hall (6 Sep 2013)

2636849 said:


> Wolf take the hindmost?


Beware of naked American men, stealing balloons.


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## Dogtrousers (6 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> you're never, ever going to work it out.


I think I worked _that _out a while ago. I'll keep trying though.


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## dellzeqq (8 Sep 2013)

User13710 said:


> He hasn't worked it out either - he's making us do the work!


I've worked it out pretty much down to the last detail. I need some money and I need some time. That's it.


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## Gordon P (8 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> ...I'm going for something fresh, *youngpeople* and generally kickass. Midnight Ridazz watch out!


I trust that is young at heart?


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## dellzeqq (8 Sep 2013)

2640825 said:


> What sort of budget?


----------



## thom (8 Sep 2013)

A couple of variations are possible :
1) TTT are an obvious candidate, possibly randomly assigned teams 
2) BBTT - it is possible to find an aero-position on a Barclays Bike


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## thom (8 Sep 2013)

2640857 said:


> Or one universal team where "they all came first and they all won prizes".


@Adrian - you could stump up the funding for a "seniors" category


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## StuAff (8 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> A couple of variations are possible :
> 1) TTT are an obvious candidate, possibly randomly assigned teams
> 2) BBTT - it is possible to find an aero-position on a Barclays Bike


1. Like. Unless you ended up with (for example) your good self, Tanya and a skating chum or two, Big Michael...in which case game over for everyone else. Such a circumstance would be of course mitigated by such a dream team being required to switch bikes to something more suitable. For someone else 
2. No it isn't.


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## thom (8 Sep 2013)

StuAff said:


> 1. Like. Unless you ended up with (for example) your good self, Tanya and a skating chum or two, Big Michael...in which case game over for everyone else. Such a circumstance would be of course mitigated by such a dream team being required to switch bikes to something more suitable. For someone else


I would suggest a complicated computer algorithm creating 4 person teams, based upon ITT times targeting an equal average speed. So teams balanced by construction and random too.


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## StuAff (8 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> I would suggest a complicated computer algorithm creating 4 person teams, based upon ITT times targeting an equal average speed. So teams balanced by construction and random too.


Or we could just let your tyres down a bit.


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## thom (8 Sep 2013)

2640880 said:


> Ah but what about people with multiple bikes of widely different types. Do they have to declare up front what they will be riding?


commissaires have ultimate discretion in such matters


----------



## Tim Hall (8 Sep 2013)

I'm surprised Richmond Park Hell Riders haven't had a mention yet.


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## StuAff (8 Sep 2013)

Tim Hall said:


> I'm surprised Richmond Park Hell Riders haven't had a mention yet.


Looked that up. Absolutely terrifying.


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## Tim Hall (8 Sep 2013)

2641569 said:


> Does my bike and longboard combination suggestion not count?


It was that combination that sparked my wossname. Does Tiger ride a longboard? EMNTK.


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## Wobblers (8 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> I would suggest a complicated computer algorithm creating 4 person teams, based upon ITT times targeting an equal average speed. So teams balanced by construction and random too.





StuAff said:


> Or we could just let your tyres down a bit.



I suggest a handicap system of added weights, like you get in horse racing. Clearly, we'd need an anchor for Thom, and a grand piano for Rimas. Anyone got any spare?

(edited for spelling)


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## StuAff (8 Sep 2013)

McWobble said:


> I suggest a handicap system of added weights, like you get in horse racing. Clearly, we'd need an anchor for Thom, and a grand piano for Rimas. Anyone get any spare?


Or a large rucksack.


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## slowmotion (9 Sep 2013)

McWobble said:


> I suggest a handicap system of added weights, like you get in horse racing. Clearly, we'd need an anchor for Thom, and a grand piano for Rimas. Anyone get any spare?


 I think I'll need some of that stuff that Lance is fond of.


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## Beebo (9 Sep 2013)

slowmotion said:


> I think I'll need some of that stuff that Lance is fond of.


 so not humble pie then?


----------



## Wobblers (9 Sep 2013)

StuAff said:


> Or a large rucksack.



Are you saying that you carry an anchor in that rucksack? Or is it an anvil, because anvils are more compact?


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## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

It's gone very quiet on this thread. We're all still intrigued.


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## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

I have a plan. It remains the same. Design the images (I've been looking at a lot of women's magazines recently. And Rembrandt). Make the images (that's the money bit - the subs are going to go up, possibly to a fiver a year). Design the product (aka ride) to fit the images.

I went to a CTC rebranding workshop yesterday, and, although my task is tiny compared with theirs it did strike me that basically we're the same people we were in 2006. Except we're seven years older. I didn't ever dream that it would last this long, but, having lasted this long it needs to move on or the night ride will simply become the property of £140 a go outfits like the Moonriders.

I'm not going to trouble you with the detail but life's a bit on hold at the moment, and I doubt I'll make much progress in the next six months or so. And, as an aside, I won't be touring next summer.


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## Dogtrousers (12 Sep 2013)

This stuff about images and branding and product is far too gnomic for me. 


dellzeqq said:


> you're never, ever going to work it out.


----------



## ianrauk (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I have a plan. It remains the same. Design the images (I've been looking at a lot of women's magazines recently. And Rembrandt). Make the images (that's the money bit - the subs are going to go up, *possibly to a fiver a year)*. Design the product (aka ride) to fit the images.
> 
> I went to a CTC rebranding workshop yesterday, and, although my task is tiny compared with theirs it did strike me that basically we're the same people we were in 2006. Except we're seven years older. I didn't ever dream that it would last this long, but, having lasted this long it needs to move on or the night ride will simply become the property of £140 a go outfits like the Moonriders.
> 
> I'm not going to trouble you with the detail but life's a bit on hold at the moment, and I doubt I'll make much progress in the next six months or so. And, as an aside, I won't be touring next summer.



Still a bargain for 1 ride, a couple or all.


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## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

slowmotion said:


> I think I'll need some of that stuff that Lance is fond of.


 Money?


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## rich p (12 Sep 2013)

2648619 said:


> That and adulation


 ...and women who look like his Mum


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## StuAff (12 Sep 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Still a bargain for 1 ride, a couple or all.


Hear hear.


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## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

Dogtrousers said:


> This stuff about images and branding and product is far too gnomic for me.


ok. Look at the link to the movie at the beginning of the thread. Now imagine a tattooed (sp?) arm drawing a white line across the tarmac. That doesn't take a lot of imagining because a similar image with a similar arm already exists. It's night. The tarmac has a sheen on it (thankyou Michael Mann). The moving arm draws the line.

And now imagine the faces of two, perhaps three people who look as if they might ride bikes. It's night. Their faces are uplit. They're clearly different types of people, but they're clearly friends.

So..............we have a beginning in which different people like each other.

How am I doing?


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## StuAff (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> having lasted this long it needs to move on or the night ride will simply become the property of £140 a go outfits like the Moonriders.


It's Don Logan time again.....
I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for all the night-riding denizens of CC, YACF, LFGSS, anyone who's ever ridden an organised run and thought 'that was fun, I'll do one 
of my own' (even with just their mates ad hoc). The Moonriders and BHF might think they own the night. They're just renting it.


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## thom (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> ok. Look at the link to the movie at the beginning of the thread. Now imagine a tattooed (sp?) arm drawing a white line across the tarmac. That doesn't take a lot of imagining because a similar image with a similar arm already exists. It's night. The tarmac has a sheen on it (thankyou Michael Mann). The moving arm draws the line.
> 
> And now imagine the faces of two, perhaps three people who look as if they might ride bikes. It's night. Their faces are uplit. They're clearly different types of people, but they're clearly friends.
> 
> ...



And then a clown comes along singing the Frog Chorus and custard pies them ?


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## Dogtrousers (12 Sep 2013)

Hmmm ... I'll leave the strategic thinking to those who are properly equipped for the task. I'm still pleasantly surprised that the FNRttC exists, and has afforded me so much enjoyment over the past couple of years.


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## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

well I've pointed this out any number of times and nobody's ever believed me, which makes it all the more fun to point it out again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Erhard


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## mmmmartin (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> How am I doing?


Sounds to me a bit like the quote in my signature.
Does all this actually have anything at all to do with riding a bike? As in from, for instance, Hyde Park Corner to, perhaps, somewhere on the coast? With like-minded people?
And, although I am very much in favour of change, I also believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Just sayin' like........


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## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

it's about what your hopes and desires - the ones that might be addressed by a ride on a bike. I'm simply approaching the problem from the other end


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## thom (12 Sep 2013)

I saw this and thought of this thread:


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## martint235 (12 Sep 2013)

Well I'm completely lost but I figured if I put a response in I'll get an email when it all becomes clear.


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## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

Ooo. And all this talk reminds me that I failed to hand over my 2013 subs on the Brighton ride, but then I was expecting to see you in the pub.


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## Dogtrousers (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> it's about what your hopes and desires - the ones that might be addressed by a ride on a bike. I'm simply *approaching the problem from the other end*


 
Ah! I see. FNR*f*tC


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## Flying Dodo (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> well I've pointed this out any number of times and nobody's ever believed me, which makes it all the more fun to point it out again
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Erhard


 


dellzeqq said:


> it's about what your hopes and desires - the ones that might be addressed by a ride on a bike. I'm simply approaching the problem from the other end


 
I know I'm not the brightest spark around and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I think to a large extent, whatever it is you think you've got in your head to do with a branding concept of a bike ride experience, is almost certainly not what the majority of the participants of the FNttC generally think about.

You've got a lot of bemused people scratching their heads!


----------



## wanda2010 (12 Sep 2013)

No idea what you lot are on about. Just let me know when and where and I'm there.


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## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

Dogtrousers said:


> Ah! I see. FNR*f*tC


Ahhhh. With the pub at the start. Very cool.


----------



## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

Having the pub at the start of the ride might mean that everyone on the ride would be able to spout the requisite bollocks deemed appropriate for such a stunt.


----------



## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

Or is that a bit harsh ?


----------



## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> I saw this and thought of this thread:



now you're talking!

And you see the thing about faces - the impassivity of the derny rider's face played against the angle of the banking.


----------



## wanda2010 (12 Sep 2013)

2649202 said:


> And what if the instructions for finding the start, or is it finish, are given in similar style? Then where will you be with your laid back attitude?



Then I might be forced to actually engage my brain.............. and ask someone for a translation


----------



## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> I know I'm not the brightest spark around and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I think to a large extent, whatever it is you think you've got in your head to do with a branding concept of a bike ride experience, is almost certainly not what the majority of the participants of the FNttC generally think about.


they don't have to think about it.

Look at this way - The Fridays and/or the FNRttC is a brand. It connotes (you can fill in your own bit here) adventure-lite, romance, good humour, sociability. People think of the product as well-run. Sort of John Lewis meets Brief Encounter. There are some nice images and some nice words, but they don't really bring new people in - by and large it's personal recommendation.

And it is dying on its arse. Because we do not convey what we're about beforehand - you have to come along to find out. It would be nice if we had a means of conveying what we are about - but (and this is the difficult bit) I really do not think you can get across the sweetness of the ride by pictures, videos, words, whatever. If each ride is a story, it's a story that has to be experienced.

So............I might come up with something that was intriguing, enticing, and welcoming. But that probably wouldn't be about the ride as it is. It would be about a different kind of ride, one that is more easily conveyed. So the trick is to do the conveying, come up with the intriguing, enticing and welcoming based on the sweetness we already have, create a brand and then tailor the product to the brand.

Now that really isn't too difficult, is it?

oh - and the original of the video Thom linked to is a nine minute documentary - taster here
http://pixiufilms.com/steher/


----------



## gavroche (12 Sep 2013)

Next year.......I will be one year older! .....and at my age, it begins to matter!!


----------



## dellzeqq (12 Sep 2013)

on our last ride Eddie bought a round because he had a birthday last year. I think you're up next!


----------



## GrumpyGregry (12 Sep 2013)

Maybe he wants the Fridays to be Apple-esque rather than Microsoft-ish?

Have a sound product and build a story and some values around it. Build the image to generate a perceived need (or at least a want) then backfill with products that (mostly) meet that need/expectation

Does require constant reinvention/refresh of product though.

The risk is each product generation is slightly less good at meeting the perceived need/expectation than the last, because expectations always exceed realities ability to deliver, no matter how improved each generation is.

Me? I just wanna ride my bike with some nice people and some new people, to some new places on some new routes (and the night makes all things new so the existing destinations are fine) not have to worry about where I'm going, ride on my own in a group if I want to, get where we're going have a few beers and a laugh and not have to think or not think or judge or be judged or do or do not. I just want to be in what I call 'the bubble' that place on a Fridays ride where my heart and the heart of the ride are aligned. Needs a Venn diagram. Or a poem.


----------



## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

But what is considered to be a success ?

"Dying on its arse". Really ?

Are we struggling to attract numbers ?
How many is ideal for a ride ?
Is there a desire to run them more than once a month regularly ? (But Friday night and a full moon limit that, surely.)


----------



## User10571 (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> they don't have to think about it.
> ......Sort of John Lewis meets Brief Encounter........


That does it for me.
Succinctly.
And with a musical score by Sergei Rachmaninov, who could ask for more?


----------



## Hill Wimp (12 Sep 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Maybe he wants the Fridays to be Apple-esque rather than Microsoft-ish?
> 
> 
> Me? I just wanna ride my bike with some nice people and some new people, to some new places on some new routes (and the night makes all things new so the existing destinations are fine) not have to worry about where I'm going, ride on my own in a group if I want to, get where we're going have a few beers and a laugh and not have to think or not think or judge or be judged or do or do not. I just want to be in what I call 'the bubble' that place on a Fridays ride where my heart and the heart of the ride are aligned.
> ...


----------



## srw (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> To change the subject slightly. Rides of any description should have beginnings, middles and ends. They should tell a story. The beginning of the ride should be momentous, the middle of the ride should be intriguing, with revelations both small and large, and the end of the ride should be a symphonic resolution only millimetres away from orgasmic.





2648330 said:


> If I find myself thinking about my bike, rather than anything or everything else, it is spoiling my ride.





dellzeqq said:


> they don't have to think about it.


That's the thing about branding. The customer doesn't have to know about it. I'm not talking the nonsense that Apple puts out - that's skin-deep and oh-so transparent, and isn't fully embedded in the product. And is also dying on its arse, as Greg points out. I'm talking branding as in personality, branding as in holistic conceptions that go across product, back office and customer experience. Rapha has it. Sports Direct has it. Altura and Endura don't. Ryanair has it. Emirates had it until they started sponsoring football. Easyjet is losing it, BA has begun finding it again. John Lewis and Waitrose have it, Tesco has lost it, the Co-op has lost it big-time.

The Fridays products are all great, and I've loved all the ones I've been but they're basically an overgrown CTC group ride, mostly at night. They're also a CTC group ride at night which needs a succession plan, but that's a separate issue that'll be easier to sort out with a brand. They're beginning to spawn imitators, but at the moment most seem to be not quite the real thing.

And what of the story (I happened upon that first quote in a resurrected thread)?

The beginning (and I'd include the immediate pre-prep) is a bit domestic, quickly turning into a bit of a drag, not helped by its familiarity and the familiarity of people to each other. Southwold was better. There's drama to be made out of the lights being switched out, or a better start to be made (and in that respect only I think the Dun Run has the better story). The middle is the best bit - just look at what the post-ride stories are about. It's Lonesome Lane, it's Newdigate and Rusper, it's Ardingly to Lindfield. 

The ending of Brighton is Beethoven, of Whistable is a late Mozart scherzo, but Felpham tacks a bit of Coates onto the Wagner of Arundel, and Southend is the weaker bits of G&S. Southwold needs a trip to the seafront, but it's very nearly Vaughan Williams. LonJOG was a Britten opera.

The one thing I don't think the current set of branding images (including the TT) captures is the travel which is, I think, essential. Velodromes go round and round. TTs start and finish at a single point. The whole point of a bike ride is to move through the countryside. It's why I find cycling much more satisfying than walking or driving - you're going fast enough that the geography opens up, but not so fast that you don't notice the details. 

Doing everything at night makes even the familiar new, and brings with it the excitement (but the _safe_ excitement) of knowing that you're up and about when others are asleep. Long may it continue.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (12 Sep 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Needs a Venn diagram. Or a poem.


Or a post by srw.


----------



## Flying Dodo (12 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> they don't have to think about it.
> 
> Look at this way - The Fridays and/or the FNRttC is a brand. It connotes (you can fill in your own bit here) adventure-lite, romance, good humour, sociability. People think of the product as well-run. Sort of John Lewis meets Brief Encounter. There are some nice images and some nice words, but they don't really bring new people in - by and large it's personal recommendation.
> 
> ...



I can sort of see where you (might) be going to (or coming from). However, as Greg has highlighted, beware of form over function.

Also, not so sure of the dying on its arse bit. And surely the personal recommendation angle for new recruits is a good thing? Bear in mind the current format of a led ride wouldn't be able to handle 200 people. Of course I can appreciate what you've said about Southwold. So as well as trying something completely different, are you thinking of a series of mini FNRttCs, all launching off on a Friday? But going slightly different ways?


----------



## Tim Hall (12 Sep 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> So as well as trying something completely different, are you thinking of a series of mini FNRttCs, all launching off on a Friday? But going slightly different ways?



I think that was tried on the last trip to Brighton, at the turn to Lonesome Lane. Probably not intentionally though.


----------



## hatler (12 Sep 2013)

Ah ! Developing this theme a little, is it a series of TTTs all setting off from HPC at midnight, and each team being designated a different route, but all teams ending up at the same destination. Last team there buys breakfast for everybody ?


----------



## StuAff (12 Sep 2013)

hatler said:


> Ah ! Developing this theme a little, is it a series of TTTs all setting off from HPC at midnight, and each team being designated a different route, but all teams ending up at the same destination. Last team there buys breakfast for everybody ?


Like that idea.....


The problem with trying to be cool, trendy, etc…is that is, in itself, uncool. Cool things and people aren't trying to be cool. They just are. I agree with Greg and Stephen on the whole corporate cool/uncool thing, but the point I would add is that the the product itself has to be right. As a long term user of certain Apple products, I can't bring myself to give a toss whether or not those items (and the Apple stuff I don't buy) are considered 'cool' by people/media (even if I think the people/media in question are 'cool'). Does it do the job I want to do at the price I want to pay? Is it a significant improvement on what I've got? Sold.

The FNRttC might not have the mythical backstory behind the Dun Run (now there's an idea....), but does it need it? And given the choice between the rides the way they are and the overthought, overblown, oversold, badly implemented corporate mediocrity that the Moonriders et al have 'achieved', no contest.


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## mmmmartin (12 Sep 2013)

SRW posts well.
I am unsure if the idea is dying on its arse.
And as for numbers, if they get any more, I for one, planning a tour for The Fridays from Caen to Bordeaux for late June next year, will be bricking it. I think it would be wrong to limit numbers for Le Tour 2014 but there were 38 riders on LonJog, and 50 went to Brix in Normandy. Any more than that and planning roads that are safe for a group, quiet and with a good surface, and contain cafe and lunch stops that can be coped with inside an hour is getting a bit tricky. Not to mention finding villages with hotels that have enough beds for a group that size.


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## StuAff (12 Sep 2013)

2650188 said:


> Did someone say something about branding?


 Wonder if they'll manage to get it right this time. Probably not.


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## dellzeqq (13 Sep 2013)

2650188 said:


> Did someone say something about branding?


that's so shoot it's breathtaking!

There'll be fewer 'normal' FNRttCs starting from London next year whatever else happens.


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## srw (13 Sep 2013)

They've got one thing right. £45 per person, but £60 for a tandem. I approve of the differential.


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## srw (13 Sep 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> I am unsure if the idea is dying on its arse.


Certainly not imminently, but I reckon that without a refresh it'll turn before too long (in the next two or three years) into a static bunch of mates going for a ride. Which is nice for the bunch of mates, but none of us is getting younger - and some need novelty to keep interest and joy alive. I sense that's not untrue of DZ. In a sense that's not surprising. Ten years is a long time to keep a product on the shelf even if that product is tangible. When it's essentially an idea it's a heck of a long time.

I'm seeing encouraging signs - the Reading CTC ride; Stuaff's proposal for a round-the-IOW route; mmmmartin's touring leadership.

There's a wider point too - how do you stop "the bike ride" becoming solely corporate property - the property of sportive organisers, commercial charity ride organisers - or purely a prize-chasing property - the property of points- and distance-chasing audaxers or time-chasing TTers or roadies?

Part of the answer is making sure there's a non-corporate, non-prize alternative. Part of the answer is making sure that "the bike ride" is still a way of getting from A to B.


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## srw (13 Sep 2013)

2650389 said:


> Yeah but do you get one or two bottles of wine?


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## swansonj (13 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> , and Southend is the weaker bits of G&S.


So I take it the Southend breakfast was sausage rolls rather than eggs, ham and strawberry jam?
(Apologies to the 99.9% of the population who survive without an intimate knowledge of the obscurer parts of G&S)


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## Dogtrousers (13 Sep 2013)

I've just re read this thread, and from what I can understand, the Fridays/FNRttC has a problem, and the proposed solution is something to do with branding.

But what's not clear is the exact nature of the problem, other than that it's "dying on its arse" and needs to counter the threat of commercial rides such as Moonriders. Unless the problem known, and a means of measuring it - however nebulous - is established, then there's little point trying to solve it, as you will have no way of knowing if you have succeeded.

Is the problem to do with falling/failing to grow ride attendances? Is it to do with the makeup of the ride (e.g. failure to recruit new riders; recruiting too many old farts and not enough young turks?; turnover too high? turnover too low and stagnating?) Stuff like that, which is all measurable. Or is it to do with projected figures based on assumptions (e.g. all the old farts will die and attendances will fall in future), which is a bit more tentative. Or is the problem just that "it's not as much fun as it used to be", regardless of attendances?

Is the problem a wider one as srw alludes to: That to counter the competition in the form of commercial rides, part of the role of the Fridays should be to encourage other similar non-commercial rides around the country by providing a template? (Apols to srw if I've put words into your mouth there).

How do you define success? Cheesy old cobblers like a mission statement? Some quantifiable metrics? Gut feel?

I just ask these questions as all this branding/product stuff goes right over my head, and without an appreciation what it's actually trying to acheive it goes even further over my head.


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## swansonj (13 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> The Fridays products are all great, and I've loved all the ones I've been but they're basically an overgrown CTC group ride, mostly at night. They're also a CTC group ride at night which needs a succession plan, but that's a separate issue that'll be easier to sort out with a brand..


I understand the point you're making and I don't disagree, but I think it also slightly disguises another point. Although the Fridays are technically a club, I suggest that the dynamic is very much of one charismatic leader, Simon, with all the rest of us sitting in his wake in concentric circles at various distances. Don't underestimate the extent to which Simon's personality subliminally permeates the whole enterprise. So to that extent, it's not a group ride, it's one person inviting the rest of us to share the experience he has created, which happens to be riding in a group. There's a sense in which your mention of "succession planning" is only sensible - but is there not another sense in which it feels alien to the fundamental dynamic?

(There is perhaps an imperfect parallel with the Lyke Wake Walk club, and I'm sure many other examples as well)


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## User10571 (13 Sep 2013)

User13710 said:


> It's got Rules, you know.


Reason in itself not to go.
Much as I am fond of the fermented grape, after riding all night,I find greater reward in the offshore stare than in a bottle of plonk.


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## martint235 (13 Sep 2013)

2650515 said:


> I haz a 3 speed steel framed fixie, complete with Brooks saddle and Carradice bag. Such people don't scare me.


 
Ah but you probably scare such people.


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## martint235 (13 Sep 2013)

2650529 said:


> And my problem with that is?


 
None whatsoever. Just some friendly concern for them.

Just had a look at their website. Lots of rules. They do helpfully tell me how to ride 100 miles though.


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## Flying Dodo (13 Sep 2013)

Dogtrousers said:


> I've just re read this thread, and from what I can understand, the Fridays/FNRttC has a problem, and the proposed solution is something to do with branding.
> 
> But what's not clear is the exact nature of the problem, other than that it's "dying on its arse" and needs to counter the threat of commercial rides such as Moonriders. Unless the problem known, and a means of measuring it - however nebulous - is established, then there's little point trying to solve it, as you will have no way of knowing if you have succeeded.
> 
> ...



So is the answer more advertising, to attract fresh young blood? Surely there must some media type person within the Fridays who has connections? Perhaps someone who could interest some TV people in a piece for the news? Journalists - there was that Guardian piece several years ago. Perhaps someone working there now could do an update? Viral advertising on Twitter/Youtube/Facebook. Just a thought.


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## swansonj (13 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> They've got one thing right. £45 per person, but £60 for a tandem. I approve of the differential.


Ah, but you can't put your tandem in their Broom Wagon. I'm sure that alone will put you off doing the ride...


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## thom (13 Sep 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> So is the answer more advertising, to attract fresh young blood? Surely there must some media type person within the Fridays who has connections? Perhaps someone who could interest some TV people in a piece for the news? Journalists - there was that Guardian piece several years ago. Perhaps someone working there now could do an update? Viral advertising on Twitter/Youtube/Facebook. Just a thought.


Article for The Ride journal ? It gets sold in all the cool places. You can make it as impressionistic as you want but the common thread is the personal experience of riding. Someone who writes creatively could give it a go - a factual recounting wouldn't cut it.

Innovation/evolution should be a core value of any successful organisation. It doesn't matter if doing something new falls on it's arse, the important thing is to see it through. For me @srw has exactly right : an important objectionable fad like aspects of the uptake in cycling, is the commercialisation of the bike ride. FNRTTC is imitated but has an ambition that other rides will never have, to empower people and make riding an adventure. People may come through FNRTTC only once or twice but it casts the experience of riding in different terms. 

I suspect fewer London rides is a good idea - less of an onerous commitment for Simon but maybe giving heightened experience and space for something else to take root.


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## mmmmartin (14 Sep 2013)

Good idea. I have cancelled at the last minute twice in the past few years and each time sent a fiver to Simon for the caterers so they are paid for the sandwiches they made for me. Trouble is: this then becomes another piece of work for Someone.


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## Fab Foodie (14 Sep 2013)

Need they always go to the coast? (Spare me the obvious answer), if they went elsewhere it would give a greater number or different people to participate more frequently. There must be other suitable dstinations with nice/interesting routings; Bath, Oxford, Cambridge .... Milton Keynes (ok, just kidding)

Circular routes?

There could be a half-way between rides where the London Massif say the Birmingham crew start at Midnight to meet at Brekkie half way between the two? This then gives an option for the return stylee riders who have maybe cycled from Londinium to ride on to Mordor Central and get a train back to Londinium.

I like the idea of registering 'Friday Night Ride to' with The Fridays as a loosish 'Club' for others to start similar things elsewhere. You just need a few 'Regional Simons' sharing the same ethos. It's something I'd have like to have done with Freewheeling, but fear we missed the boat.


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## srw (15 Sep 2013)

Well, there was briefly a proposal this year for a Friday Night Ride to Oxford from different points of the compass - I recall suggested by someone blessed not only with thighs of steel but with dashing good looks and the brain of a Nobel prize winner (and limitless modesty). But Real Life (as in the need to drum up regional ride leaders and routes) got in the way.

For me the franchising proposal is the way forward - I take @swansonj's point about the current setup being concentric circles around a leader, but for a revolution really to take root it must be successfully transferred from the charismatic leader to become truly of the people. 

I think the example of Reading CTC proves that no-one's missed the boat. If Freewheeling fancied a ride from somewhere else back home (home being a better destination in some ways than away) I'm sure a few Fridays could be persuaded to turn up and support. Picnic breakfast in Albert Park?


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## dellzeqq (15 Sep 2013)

I'm not sure that franchising is the right word, but the Reading and South Wales rides are just what I'd hoped for. Stephen O and Stu will doubtless sort something for the IoW (Stephen had a good turnout this year) . Marcus is growing a ride in the far, far, far North. I've hopes that the York to Hull ride will be taken over by a local. 

I still think that the city centre to coast format is a winner - it's got 'beginning, middle and end', it provides a contrast and it maximises the chance of a return train. It is tough, though - the turnout for Lymington doesn't reflect the work that goes in to it, and Manchester to Morecambe, one of our best rides didn't pull in the numbers. 

I just think it's time I thought about the next thing. And I do think that a five to ten minute time trial in the middle of the night in the middle of a city has the makings of a great event. Strand Underpass, anybody?


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## swansonj (15 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> Well, there was briefly a proposal this year for a Friday Night Ride to Oxford from different points of the compass - I recall suggested by someone blessed not only with thighs of steel but with dashing good looks and the brain of a Nobel prize winner (and limitless modesty). But Real Life (as in the need to drum up regional ride leaders and routes) got in the way.
> 
> For me the franchising proposal is the way forward - I take @swansonj's point about the current setup being concentric circles around a leader, but for a revolution really to take root it must be successfully transferred from the charismatic leader to become truly of the people.
> 
> I think the example of Reading CTC proves that no-one's missed the boat. If Freewheeling fancied a ride from somewhere else back home (home being a better destination in some ways than away) I'm sure a few Fridays could be persuaded to turn up and support. Picnic breakfast in Albert Park?


But aren't you rather assuming that perpetuation is indeed the objective?


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## srw (15 Sep 2013)

swansonj said:


> But aren't you rather assuming that perpetuation is indeed the objective?


There may be different objectives for different people.


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## StuAff (15 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Stephen O and Stu will doubtless sort something for the IoW (Stephen had a good turnout this year)


The response I've had has been very encouraging, so reasonably confident that it will happen.


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## martint235 (15 Sep 2013)

StuAff said:


> The response I've had has been very encouraging, so reasonably confident that it will happen.


There is, unfortunately, the logistics. I'm looking forward to the IoW ride but it isn't one I'd be able to make more than once a year.

I have issues with York - Hull but I did the first half of Manchester to Morecambe, it was surprising how many riders were from outside the immediate vicinity. I would however turn up for another one as, although I've lived in London for 20 odd years, I still see that as being my patch.


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## srw (15 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I just think it's time I thought about the next thing. And I do think that a five to ten minute time trial in the middle of the night in the middle of a city has the makings of a great event. Strand Underpass, anybody?


It's a bit ... parochial. Your audience is essentially people who live within ten miles of the middle of the city. The great strength of the all-night ride format (apart from the travel, which is an essential part of a good bike ride) is that finishes as the world - and particularly the train service - is waking up. Anything that finishes (or that your part in it finishes) after 10 minutes leaves you with a choice. Ride home on your own, or stick around getting colder.

I don't see that as a problem _just_ for the middle-aged, by the way!


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## dellzeqq (15 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> It's a bit ... parochial. Your audience is essentially people who live within ten miles of the middle of the city. The great strength of the all-night ride format (apart from the travel, which is an essential part of a good bike ride) is that finishes as the world - and particularly the train service - is waking up. Anything that finishes (or that your part in it finishes) after 10 minutes leaves you with a choice. Ride home on your own, or stick around getting colder.
> 
> I don't see that as a problem _just_ for the middle-aged, by the way!


it depends how it's packaged. Which brings us back to branding. Twelve people do a time trial and ride home. A hundred people do a time trial and you've got yourself a party.


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## StuAff (15 Sep 2013)

martint235 said:


> There is, unfortunately, the logistics. I'm looking forward to the IoW ride but it isn't one I'd be able to make more than once a year.


Indeed. Some of the 'regional variations' are definitely once-a-year jobs for some, not at all for others, because of issues getting to or from, and even then scheduling issues can rule them out. Suffolk's lovely but getting back from Southwold and Dunwich is a real faff. I'd like to do one of Rogerzilla's Oxford-London rides, but never yet managed to find one I can make. And breakfast in Acton...nice.


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## StuartG (15 Sep 2013)

Can I add that I am not interested in 'winning' or otherwise trying to prove my superiority over anybody else. I don't do Sportives or even Audaxes or anything against the clock (unless it involves closing time). That's why I enjoy my club rides and the Fridays.

I agree that the FNRttC is danger of becoming repetitive and formulaic and the joy to the organiser in re-doing what he has been valiantly doing so many times before may be diminishing. So moving on and change are to be welcomed. I just hope he doesn't leave us plodders behind. I think we may represent true bicycling more than power men and women at the front. They have already so much more organised for them.

I await the grand unveiling of Friday 2 with both hope and fear ...


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## dellzeqq (15 Sep 2013)

Well, as I have made clear..........this would be a time trial in which the times might not be recorded. See also Werner Erhard.


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## Aperitif (16 Sep 2013)

OK


> ...in order to have a game, where you are not or what you are not has got to be more important than where you are or what you are.
> 
> The real question is, where is the aliveness in the game? Where’s the happiness? And the love? And the health and the full self-expression? The purpose of living is living. Your total purpose of living is _living_. That’s the real purpose of life, but that’s not the goal in the _game_. The goal in the game is always to win. And that’s one of the things that helps you know where _it_ is.
> 
> ...


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## GrumpyGregry (16 Sep 2013)

10 minute time trial up a hill, riders must stay seated, no honking allowed, finishing times not recorded, making an effort generally frowned upon, 'winners' decided by jury of peers deciding who seemed to enjoy it the most... or the least... or was wearing the best hat... or the most stylish socks... or the cleanest chain... or the funkiest tyres... winner criteria not revealed until after winners announced.


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## Flying Dodo (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm not sure that franchising is the right word, but the Reading and South Wales rides are just what I'd hoped for. Stephen O and Stu will doubtless sort something for the IoW (Stephen had a good turnout this year) . Marcus is growing a ride in the far, far, far North. I've hopes that the York to Hull ride will be taken over by a local.
> 
> I still think that the city centre to coast format is a winner - it's got 'beginning, middle and end', it provides a contrast and it maximises the chance of a return train. It is tough, though - the turnout for Lymington doesn't reflect the work that goes in to it, and Manchester to Morecambe, one of our best rides didn't pull in the numbers.


 
Although bear in mind with spin-off rides, such as the Dover one I recently did, or Stu's proposed Isle of Wight one, is that these are aimed at an existing known audience of forumites, and there's normally only up to 20 people coming along. And as such they're not done under the banner of any club, so there's no question of being covered for insurance. But that issue generally wouldn't arise as the attendees will be people who've generally done a fair amount of riding together already and they (generally!) know what they're doing and accept the risks. Trying to run a led ride, advertising in some way to get new riders, so it might possibly have a much large number of riders, means it would have to be run as a "proper" authorised ride, with somebody providing 3rd party liability insurance, for peace of mind.


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## dellzeqq (16 Sep 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> Although bear in mind with spin-off rides, such as the Dover one I recently did, or Stu's proposed Isle of Wight one, is that these are aimed at an existing known audience of forumites, and there's normally only up to 20 people coming along. And as such they're not done under the banner of any club, so there's no question of being covered for insurance. But that issue generally wouldn't arise as the attendees will be people who've generally done a fair amount of riding together already and they (generally!) know what they're doing and accept the risks. Trying to run a led ride, advertising in some way to get new riders, so it might possibly have a much large number of riders, means it would have to be run as a "proper" authorised ride, with somebody providing 3rd party liability insurance, for peace of mind.


that's absolutely right. Simon B runs the Reading CTC night rides with pretty much the same back-up as The Fridays. I told Stephen O back in August that if he wanted to run the 2014 round-IOW ride under the Fridays banner, or with a local CTC group, then it would go on the FNRttC calendar - not least because he'd set the 2013 version so well. We all know Marcus - there's no reason why the Carlisle to Newcastle shouldn't be a Fridays ride - if he fancies taking it on next year.

The deciding factor is the insurance held by the people you're riding with. It's not much use the organiser having insurance if somebody around you does something stupid and you have no line of redress.


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Strand Underpass, anybody?


If only the Royal Parks closed roads around Buckingham Palace and on Rotten Row on Saturday mornings...


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## Aperitif (16 Sep 2013)

2656405 said:


> I was just thinking of all of us pulling out into the road and riding round and round a few times before setting off in one direction or another. Not racing.


A Criticals Mass then?


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## Aperitif (16 Sep 2013)

2656454 said:


> I wouldn't preclude less critical people from taking part.


I'll be in their bunch then.


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## dellzeqq (16 Sep 2013)

here's another. 
http://goo.gl/maps/dRQNF 
freewheel down to the bottom of the hill, turn left, start at one minute intervals, up Swains Lane in anything from six minutes to three minutes. All gather on the green.


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## ianrauk (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> here's another.
> http://goo.gl/maps/dRQNF
> freewheel down to the bottom of the hill, turn left, start at one minute intervals, up Swains Lane in anything from six minutes to three minutes. All gather on the green.




UP Swains Lane


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## dellzeqq (16 Sep 2013)

ianrauk said:


> UP Swains Lane


indeed. With people waving flags. And coffee and prosecco at the top


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## ianrauk (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> indeed. With people waving flags. And coffee and prosecco at the top




To be honest.. it doesn't appeal to me. If I wanted to do a short loop or climbing race then I could join one of many clubs that do that type of thing.
.
I belong to the FNR as I like how and what it is. Leaving London at Midnight still get's to me. I want to spend hours in the company of like minded individuals cycling to the coast. I want to see the sea in the morning. I want brekkie with a bit of natter about a night ride and I want to ride back home.

I am not saying change is not good. But please don't forget the foundations and the very name as to what the FNR was built upon, is now and what attracts people to it in the first place.

Or just tell me to bugger off.


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## velovoice (16 Sep 2013)

I've been following this conversation with some curiosity and bewilderment but hadn't commented as I wasn't sure I had anything to add to all the esoteric, hypothetical, surreal, at times almost hallucinogenic musings that would be viewed with any credibility.

Frankly (and I say this as a trade mark legal practitioner with years of experience advising a wide range of businesses on branding issues), I think the whole "problem" of branding is being wayyyyy "over-thunk". One significant factor that several people have skirted around but which hasn't been mentioned explicitly is that of GOODWILL. The FNRttC has it in spades, but only after years and years of consistency. Change of the fundamental type that seems to be contemplated would wipe, I would estimate, at least 80% of that away.

In any case, my view is simple, perhaps even primitive: *wot Ian said*.
(in msg # 227 in case somebody else is posting at the same time as me, as seems to keep happening to me today!)


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## Archie_tect (16 Sep 2013)

Enjoyed my own SMRttC a few times, but sadly not this year- setting off as dawn just starts show a sliver of mauve in the inky blue- getting to the sea by 6, then back home in time for breakfast... lovely!


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## Flying Dodo (16 Sep 2013)

There are a number of issues. At the moment, it all rests on Simon's head to do everything concerning organising & leading the rides. And I guess with over 100 done, it must be a bit tedious, so I can understand the references to wanting to try something new (despite the oblique nature of what that might be)! Of course he has a number of people he can trust to assist correctly with wayfinding and TECing. Having people who can fix things and then speedily get things rolling again is a key part of the rides. Trying to get someone else to run an affiliated ride somewhere else runs into the problem of not having a guaranteed pool of individuals to carry out those tasks. And that will be the biggest stumbling block.

Is this therefore where the branding comes in? At the moment, it could be said the FNRttC is Simon, and Simon is the FNRttC. By altering the focus to be more about the concept, and experience of the ride, and to make it less about the individual in charge. Baring cloning Simon, in respect of the traditional FNRttC, is the answer for running rides elsewhere to have an masked avenger at the front, leading the riders onwards towards dawn?


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## dellzeqq (16 Sep 2013)

I'm not sure about all this Simon stuff. Simon B (ah - I see where you're coming from) runs the Reading night rides. There's no special trick to it, although it helps if, in your 'other' life, you tell people what to do, and you routinely check and re-check your work (I'm willing to bet that Archie could pull it off). Not everybody would fancy it, but I can think of at least two people who would do as good a job as me. I suppose it's a question of having the time as much as anything.

Here's what I think will happen - if my life continues pretty much in the same way* then I'll run things pretty much as they are now next year except
a) Martin and others will run the tour (I can't even think of going away for a week)
b) there will be fewer rides to the four/five standard destinations - so, from 11? in 2012 to 9 in 2012 to perhaps five in 2014. Fewer rides might mean bigger rides, which are easier to run
c) there will be a round-IOW ride run by somebody else
d) there will be a Cardiff to Swansea ride which Claudine pretty much runs anyway
e) there will be a York to Hull ride, but I might not be running it
f) the Reading rides will get a push
g) if he fancies it Marcus might expand the Carlisle to Newcastle ride
h) there will be two Southwold rides at a minimum, and, hopefully three
and
i) I will attempt to get the CTC TT movie-ette off the ground - with your money.

* I face a crisis - one of my daughters has cancer and it might be that my heart won't be up to the task of running a bike club.


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## velovoice (16 Sep 2013)

Ah. So basically it boils down to a lot more delegating on the existing offerings coupled with some brand extensions i.e. new offerings.... ?
That I can fully understand. And support.


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## ianrauk (16 Sep 2013)

RebeccaOlds said:


> Ah. So basically it boils down to a lot more delegating on the existing offerings coupled with some brand extensions i.e. new offerings.... ?
> That I can fully understand. And support.




Indeed to that...


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## dellzeqq (16 Sep 2013)

Nothing like. I meant what I said about the brand dying on its arse. I've put in everything I've got by way of talent (ha!) and basically it's the same ride it was five years ago, but with people who are five years older.

All bike clubs die in the end. South London is littered with the remains of big, big cycling clubs, and we are probably just starting on the downward slope. There may well be years of fun in it yet (I've always said one of these days Adam, Adrian, User10571 and I will be pounding around Sussex in the dead of night on something we will call a 'recce ride'), but the FNRttC is unlikely to go anywhere else - the product have been refined and refined until there is genuinely little room for improvement. This is not a sad thing - it has been the most tremendous run. It may be that the non-London rides give it a new lease of life, but, if they don't, they don't.

So I want to have one more go at something slightly different - but, and this is the important bit - I am going to try and capture the qualities that make the FNRttC what it is - the spirit of the thing.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2013)

srw said:


> Well, there was briefly a proposal this year for a Friday Night Ride to Oxford from different points of the compass - I recall suggested by someone blessed not only with thighs of steel but with dashing good looks and the brain of a Nobel prize winner (and limitless modesty). But Real Life (as in the need to drum up regional ride leaders and routes) got in the way.
> 
> For me the franchising proposal is the way forward - I take @swansonj's point about the current setup being concentric circles around a leader, but for a revolution really to take root it must be successfully transferred from the charismatic leader to become truly of the people.
> 
> I think the example of Reading CTC proves that no-one's missed the boat. If Freewheeling fancied a ride from somewhere else back home (home being a better destination in some ways than away) I'm sure a few Fridays could be persuaded to turn up and support. Picnic breakfast in Albert Park?



I'm proposing such a London to Abingdon Night-ride to arrive at the kick-off of the next Freewheeling Spring Festival :-)


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> here's another.
> http://goo.gl/maps/dRQNF
> freewheel down to the bottom of the hill, turn left, start at one minute intervals, up Swains Lane in anything from six minutes to three minutes. All gather on the green.


It's a good route though I'd be wary of introducing the mildest element of competition into the downhill bit, particularly at night...


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## procel (16 Sep 2013)

FNRttC, led by the Dread Pirate Roberts? (@ Flying Dodo)


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## sbird (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Simon B (ah - I see where you're coming from) runs the Reading night rides.





dellzeqq said:


> f) the Reading rides will get a push



I've stumbled on this thread today and I'm finding that it's twists and turns are both confusing and enlightening.

What sad news for you dellzeqq. All the very best for a good outcome.

For Reading CTC I've decided not to do any night rides next year as there's other rides I want to do and there's not enough available days/nights in the year as it is. It doesn't mean they won't happen next year, just that I won't be leading them. I've really appreciated the support from dellzeqq for our rides and this Friday's one will be the last for a while.

So perhaps as dellzeqq needs to scale back shouldn't someone else in the Fridays lead some of the FNRttC rides if that's what's wanted/desired/required? It looks like it's happening outside of London but within?

I'm liking the brand refresh idea as that's something I'm constantly trying to do for Reading CTC with different types of rides. Also I'd really like to drop the CTC bit as I think it gives some the wrong impression (beards, touring bikes, mudguards - the horror) rather than what it really is. 

Which, fundamentally, is going for a ride with some chums both old and to be.


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

procel said:


> FNRttC, led by the Dead Pirate Robbers? (@ Flying Dodo)


Now there's an idea for a Halloween dry run of the hill climb I reckon - It would be quite a laugh to dress up as grave robbers on bikes and go charging up besides Hampstead cemetary - any pirates graves there ?


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2013)

sbird said:


> I'm liking the brand refresh idea as that's something I'm constantly trying to do for Reading CTC with different types of rides. Also I'd really like to drop the CTC bit as I think it gives some the wrong impression (beards, touring bikes, mudguards - the horror) rather than what it really is.
> 
> Which, fundamentally, is going for a ride with some chums both old and to be.




Might I suggest Reading Freewheeling ;-)


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## dellzeqq (16 Sep 2013)

that's an odd one. I'm going in precisely the opposite direction, hoping to do something with 'CTC'.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2013)

thom said:


> Now there's an idea for a Halloween dry run of the hill climb I reckon - It would be quite a laugh to dress up as grave robbers on bikes and go charging up besides Hampstead cemetary - any pirates graves there ?



Freewheeling did a dressed-up Halloween ride, it was a hoot! A Tour of Londiniums graveyards (why not Graves of the famous or infamous?) would be great, dellzeqq likes a story .....


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## Fab Foodie (16 Sep 2013)

2656454 said:


> I wouldn't preclude less critical people from taking part.


What about the more massive?


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## Flying Dodo (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I just think it's time I thought about the next thing. And I do think that a five to ten minute time trial in the middle of the night in the middle of a city has the makings of a great event.



Leaving aside the issue of traffic, a large group of cyclists hanging around are going to get cold and create some noise.........and some unhappy residents.


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## Flying Dodo (16 Sep 2013)

procel said:


> FNRttC, led by the Dread Pirate Roberts? (@ Flying Dodo)


 
I'm Spartacus (and a cheque is in the post).




PS You do like hills, don't you?


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## thom (16 Sep 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> I'm Spartacus (and a cheque is in the post).


Am I the only one who thinks you bear a little more than a passing resemblance to Christopher Lee ?


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## Flying Dodo (16 Sep 2013)

So that's why I like night rides.............................


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## srw (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> * I face a crisis - one of my daughters has cancer and it might be that my heart won't be up to the task of running a bike club.


Oh Christ, that's bad. Hugs/manly handshakes to you all.


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## srw (16 Sep 2013)

Fab Foodie said:


> I'm proposing such a London to Abingdon Night-ride to arrive at the kick-off of the next Freewheeling Spring Festival :-)


Jolly good. I feel a bout of nostalgia coming along!


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## Steve Jones (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> * I face a crisis - one of my daughters has cancer and it might be that my heart won't be up to the task of running a bike club.



Suddenly I don't feel quite adequate to respond. All I can say is I hope everything turns out for the best.


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## procel (16 Sep 2013)

What Steve said: I hope so too.


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## Tim Hall (16 Sep 2013)

Random thoughts that occurred to me whilst cooking:

We used to have lectures on the FNRTTC. Mostly en route to Southend, involving socialist ideals of shoemaking, but also churches used in films, with a side order of cruising. I liked them. Nowadays we seem not to dawdle on the way, but they struck a chord with me, so much so that I've organised Tandem Club rides that have been little else than a literary tour of West Sussex. I reckon that side could be expanded upon. No, really I do. Hand out assignments before the ride to designated riders to come up with something. A sort of literary/cultural-TEC perhaps.

Peter Cushing lived in Whitstable.

We looked, in vain, for a memorial to Ho Chi Minh in Newhaven.

Fancy dress at Halloween happened on an FNRTTC once before. Some made the effort. Arallsop, top marks:


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## Flying Dodo (16 Sep 2013)

I'd forgotten about the fancy dress! 

I've done lectures before - my Independence Ride around central London a couple of years ago was stuffed full of facts about earnest seekers of freedom from around the world.

Ask not what the FNRttC can do for you, but what you can do for the FNRttC. Perhaps all attendees should fill in a questionnaire detailing their special skills and knowledge, so that they can be called upon to provide amusing and/or onteresting factoids and comments?


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## Tim Hall (16 Sep 2013)

Hmm. I thought I'd put a picture in:





FD, very well said.


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## User10571 (16 Sep 2013)

User13710 said:


> Or we could just go for a lovely bike ride?


With you......


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## StuAff (16 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm not sure about all this Simon stuff. Simon B (ah - I see where you're coming from) runs the Reading night rides. There's no special trick to it, although it helps if, in your 'other' life, you tell people what to do, and you routinely check and re-check your work (I'm willing to bet that Archie could pull it off). Not everybody would fancy it, but I can think of at least two people who would do as good a job as me. I suppose it's a question of having the time as much as anything.
> 
> Here's what I think will happen - if my life continues pretty much in the same way* then I'll run things pretty much as they are now next year except
> a) Martin and others will run the tour (I can't even think of going away for a week)
> ...


As others have said, hope that everything works out as best it can. And if there's anything I can do to help, I will. And if I can't, it won't be through lack of trying.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Sep 2013)

I spend all week "telling people what to do" and herding cats. One of the things I love about The Fridays is being one of the cats and not having anyone look to me for leadership for a change. 

Simon: Candle duly lit for you and your daughter.


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## mmmmartin (17 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> a) Martin and others will run the tour


OK. Now it is in the public domain, I think it is time for an explanatory thread (rather than the "conversation" that has taken place) from me. This will be a long read and take a while to compose. I try with these things to write them, cut them, and leave them for a while before returning to them and then cut them some more. So it might be a while before it appears.


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## GrumpyGregry (17 Sep 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> that's an odd one. I'm going in precisely the opposite direction, *hoping to do something with 'CTC'*.


Now you really are getting your brand values mixed up.


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## Flying Dodo (17 Sep 2013)

Who knows what the "brand" will end up being.........

Is the intention to be more like this?



I have a feeling most people want things to remain like this


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## Flying Dodo (17 Sep 2013)

User13710 said:


> I think we should be patient and have a bit more faith..



It's like waiting to wake up on Christmas Day morning...........


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## thom (1 Oct 2013)

Here's a route - slight puncture potential yet incorporating countryside in the city and a hill climb through the darkness of Hampstead Heath.
Start somewhere on East Heath Road, possibly Vale of Heath, descending down to where it becomes S End Road.
Take a left onto the cycle path through the Heath, which wends its way between a couple of ponds before going left, round and upwards steadily but not steeply, across Lime Avenue, across the bridge, round past the loos and upwards to a finish line within the park but just below the B519 which is Spaniards Road where you get a view between the trees across the city.


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