# Unstructured schedule - improving FTP/endurance?



## dr-ivan (19 Nov 2013)

Dear all,

I am in the middle of my 20-s, never been too good at endurance sports but have always enjoyed cycling. Recently I decided to try to increase my endurance, and thus bought a trainer for the winter, along with a subscription to TrainerRoad - in hopes of seeing some progress towards the start of the next season. My main problem is that my work schedule is highly erratic (unpredictable mix of 18-hour night shifts, 14-hour day shifts, along with shorter day and evening shifts). I am able to squeeze perhaps 6 hours of training each week, divided into 3, 4 or 5 sessions. Unfortunately, there is no regularity to these sessions. Some weeks I may have three consecutive days for training, during others I can spread my effort somewhat more evenly. Most of the training plans I see online, however, are based around regular workout days interspaced with restitution days. Thus, I am wondering if you have any tips on how to reconcile my working situation with a sensible workout schedule that yields at least somewhat tangible results?

Any advice mostly appreciated!

My humble stats are: FTP 175 (based on my first ever 8-minute test); results from best-effort curve: 5s = 6 W/kg, 5min = 3 W/kg, 1h = 1.7 W/kg


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## Dusty Bin (20 Nov 2013)

What goals or targets do you have for 2014? A goal of 'increasing your endurace' is a bit vague, tbh


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## dr-ivan (20 Nov 2013)

Thank you for your reply, Dusty Bin. I live in a mountainous area and would like to focus on climbing. My FTP is embarrassingly low, so I thought that my primary objective towards the beginning of next outdoor season (i.e the coming 4-5 months) would be to increase it beyond 200. I am not quite sure whether this sounds like a reasonable goal or not; as I have already stated - I am more or less a complete newbie.


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## Dusty Bin (20 Nov 2013)

What I meant was, why are you training? Is it for general fitness, or for some kind of improvement in competition, ie road racing, TTs, etc. If you live in a mountainous area already and you would like to improve your climbing then the answer is pretty straightforward - just get out and ride.

Without knowing more about your riding experience and objectives, it's difficult to be more specific.


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## dr-ivan (20 Nov 2013)

It is basically for general fitness. What got me thinking about doing some winter trainer riding was the following.

During the summer months I rode around 100 hours and 3000km in total on my road bike. At the time I did not test my endurance using the "proper" 8x2-minute or 20 minute tests. However, I have a particular ascent that I ride on a regular basis - and during the season I could barely see any improvement riding it. Also, logging my workouts using Strava, I usually end up in the middle of the ranking for my age and weight. One would have thought that putting around 5-6 hours riding a week might improve my performance, but it has not, at least not to any noticeable degree. This is why thought that somewhat more targeted / structured training might perhaps bring better results.

I have never participated in any event (although I would very much like to some time in the future).
Also: I have a chronic injury in both knees which does not impact day-to-day riding or activity but prevents neuromuscular workouts and sudden bursts of power output.


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## montage (20 Nov 2013)

I'd suggest you have a bank of workouts that take approximately 1hour - for example 20 mins x 20, 60 min SST, 5mins X 5 ... there are loads out there to choose from. Doing 3 1 hour sessions a week sounds doable to you - don't worry about the order and don't worry about working out on consecutive days. Any other rides you can do, do them, but to be time efficient you need to go hard on hard days and easy on easy days. You can get very fit on 6 hours a week.
I would google sweet spot training, it can bring you on very quickly.

Having said that, living in a mountainous area, just get out and hit the climbs


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## Rob3rt (20 Nov 2013)

Your FTP is so low it suggests you probably are not all that fit unless you weigh as much as the dust in my pocket. You should focus on just riding and doing sub-threshold efforts, IMO.


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## VamP (21 Nov 2013)

Unless the OP has done his sums wrong, I work out his weight at 103 kg. 175 is an unusually low FTP for that mass, so I would suggest just riding more as you are basically completely untrained. Losing weight would be very beneficial, particularly for hill work.


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## dr-ivan (21 Nov 2013)

@montage: Thank you for your suggestions! Is there any proportion of hard days and easy days I should target? (f.ex. 2 hard days + 1 easy day a week?) Also, I can see that many training programs use a base + build structure. Should I try to follow it?

@Rob3rt: That is exactly the problem - "just riding" is what I have been doing for 100 hours and 3000 km during this summer, including mountain climbs. However, as I stated earlier, I was unable to detect any significant improvements. So, I must be doing something really wrong, which is also why I am trying to try structuring my training efforts better during the winter in hopes of improving the gains.

@VamP: My current weight is 79kg. The FTP is based on my first (and still only) 8x2 minute test, whereas the W/kg values are based on best-efforts curve of my first 5 sessions with TrainerRoad.


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## BSRU (21 Nov 2013)

More hours needed, I am just a commuter with some leisure rides at weekends and managed to ride over 18 hours a week in the summer months.
Didn't make me fast just improved my general fitness and well being.


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## jdtate101 (21 Nov 2013)

I agree, you need more hours. Doing intervals "can" help increase your FTP (if you're doing the right training) however it's not going to help with endurance. To increase endurance only doing the hours will help, as nothing replicates doing a 6hr ride indoors. You say you've done 100hrs and 3000km, TBH that is not a lot of mileage, as an example this yr alone I will top out at close to 13000km, and there are guys on here who do even more. If you want to be able to ride long, then there is no substitute for doing the road work, no shortcuts.
BTW for a "correct" FTP test you need to be doing at least a 20min block at max effort, 8mins is just not long enough to put you under the hammer to see how you deal with getting close to VO2 MAX. 

http://paulrinkenberg.hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Find-Your-Functional-Threshold

I would suggest you look to build a good base fitness over winter (google cycling base fitness training), then once the weather improves get out on the road as much as possible. For example when I was training for this yrs Marmotte, I was doing a 100mile ride every weekend, sometime 150miles, and doing 200+ per week regularly.

Also don't fall into the mistake of doing something everyday, rest days and recovery rides are equally important, as is eating right and staying hydrated.


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## Rob3rt (21 Nov 2013)




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## VamP (21 Nov 2013)

dr-ivan said:


> @montage: Thank you for your suggestions! Is there any proportion of hard days and easy days I should target? (f.ex. 2 hard days + 1 easy day a week?) Also, I can see that many training programs use a base + build structure. Should I try to follow it?
> 
> @Rob3rt: That is exactly the problem - "just riding" is what I have been doing for 100 hours and 3000 km during this summer, including mountain climbs. However, as I stated earlier, I was unable to detect any significant improvements. So, I must be doing something really wrong, which is also why I am trying to try structuring my training efforts better during the winter in hopes of improving the gains.
> 
> @VamP: My current weight is 79kg. The FTP is based on my first (and still only) 8x2 minute test, whereas the W/kg values are based on best-efforts curve of my first 5 sessions with TrainerRoad.



I think you're confusing yourself with all the numbers, hence the wildly diverse power numbers you listed in your OP. I wouldn't go for intervals or Trainer Road at all in your case until you have got a decent foundation (say 5000 miles) and a better understanding of what you are measuring and it's limitations.


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## dr-ivan (22 Nov 2013)

@BSRU / @jdtate101: Thank you for the pointers, I will try to be patient with mileage.

I collected lots of data while cycling this summer, though never really giving it a second look. Looking back at it now I realize that, at least based on HR, I was spending almost 2/3 of any given ride between endurance and sweet spot zones. Which means I was not doing it either hard enough (for sweet spot training) or easy enough (for endurance) - perhaps explaining to a certain degree why I never saw any improvement.

@VamP: I appreciate your advice, you might be entirely right about my confusing myself. FTP-number supplied is calculated from the 8x2 test, and is only an approximation - in the same way as the 20-minute test is. Best-efforts curve is derived from my 5 riding sessions with a power meter. The 1-hour number simply depicts my best average power output during any one hour of those sessions. Neither of the sessions were an all-out 1-hour TT-effort (=FTP), thus the significant discrepancy.


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## Rob3rt (22 Nov 2013)

Buy a book (Training and Racing with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen and Andy Coggan, if you insist on using pseudo power training) & on that bomb shell I am declaring myself out.


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## Dusty Bin (22 Nov 2013)

dr-ivan said:


> I collected lots of data while cycling this summer, though never really giving it a second look. Looking back at it now I realize that, at least based on HR, I was spending almost 2/3 of any given ride between endurance and sweet spot zones. Which means I was not doing it either hard enough (for sweet spot training) or easy enough (for endurance) - perhaps explaining to a certain degree why I never saw any improvement.



The other possibility (make that 'likelihood') is that you have simply not been riding long enough yet to see any adaptions. I would ignore FTP, effort curves and 20-minute tests for now and just ride your bike for another three months. Sometimes long and steady, sometimes short and hard, but do it often and do it regularly. Training plans are impossible to implement if you don't have a purpose.


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## michaelcycle (22 Nov 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> The other possibility (make that 'likelihood') is that you have simply not been riding long enough yet to see any adaptions. I would ignore FTP, effort curves and 20-minute tests for now and just ride your bike for another three months. Sometimes long and steady, sometimes short and hard, but do it often and do it regularly. Training plans are impossible to implement if you don't have a purpose.



I think this is the way to go for the time being. You just sound like you need to manage your expectations more than anything.

It seems you are basically untrained and haven't given it enough time to see any meaningful change. If your goal is general fitness you don't need to get obsessed with your metrics to this degree. If your goal changes to competing then that may change but really where you are is where most leisure cyclists (including myself) are I believe. You could try cycling to work regularly as an easy means of getting some consistent training if needs be.


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## dr-ivan (22 Nov 2013)

Thank you all for the replies.

I can see that my inexperience has caused annoyance to some of you, though I assure you that it was never my intention. Being completely alien to any structured endurance training I thought I would see more results from the cycling I did during the summer. To me, the 3000km effort seemed to be quite a lot. As several of you have already pointed out, it was probably not enough.

Summa summarum, I think I will continue riding on my trainer as much as I can throughout the winter and wait with the power analysis until later.


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## Rob3rt (22 Nov 2013)

dr-ivan said:


> Thank you all for the replies.
> 
> *I can see that my inexperience has caused annoyance to some of you*, though I assure you that it was never my intention. Being completely alien to any structured endurance training I thought I would see more results from the cycling I did during the summer. To me, the 3000km effort seemed to be quite a lot. As several of you have already pointed out, it was probably not enough.
> 
> Summa summarum, I think I will continue riding on my trainer as much as I can throughout the winter and wait with the power analysis until later.



It has not caused me any annoyance, I just simply don't know where to start, especially when it will involve debating with people who are giving advice as well as trying to offer assistance. A book would be helpful because it will have a start and an end and there won't be a debate going on about whether the information contained in it is correct somewhere in the middle!


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## Pedrosanchezo (23 Nov 2013)

dr-ivan said:


> Thank you all for the replies.
> 
> I can see that my inexperience has caused annoyance to some of you, though I assure you that it was never my intention. Being completely alien to any structured endurance training I thought I would see more results from the cycling I did during the summer. To me, the 3000km effort seemed to be quite a lot. As several of you have already pointed out, it was probably not enough.
> 
> Summa summarum, I think I will continue riding on my trainer as much as I can throughout the winter and wait with the power analysis until later.


The most important thing is to stick with it, regardless of the program you choose. If you are less likely to go out in cold or wet weather then the turbo is the way to go for you. You also mentioned that you work irregular shift patterns and cannot commit to the schedule Trainerroad provides. This isn't a problem at all. Just follow the process as best you can with one golden rule - do a lighter session the day after a hard session, this will give your body time to recover and won't allow you to over do it, as you mentioned you may have consecutive days training due to work patterns. So in summary don't do 2 hard sessions back to back to begin with.

As for Trainerroad, well there are a few threads on here about it. One started here which is quite useful. It really was a thread for those who were just starting to use Trainerroad. Should be of help.

Personally i have a structured training schedule which differs vastly throughout the year. So it's difficult to prescribe anything if you don't have any plans or goals as such, but that being said there is a generic approach for overall fitness. Ride as much as you can. There are a few on here that advocate long hours in the saddle but i would suggest, as you are time restricted, you try to up the intensity of your outdoor rides. In other words i'd suggest that 2 hours at 80-90% effort would be more beneficial than a 5 hour ride which you pootle along without purpose. If you have time though you can always add a long ride every few weeks.

You can increase your fitness massively with one hour sessions. The key is intensity. It really is something that could be talked about for hours though and fill a yellow pages with words on the matter so i suggest you follow a basic plan on TR, something like "build" or "base" low volume. This should be around 4 workouts a week but don't worry if some weeks you do less, same applies if you do one more. The idea is just to get through the plan and measure improvement. Test again with the 2 x 8 minute FTP session, once the schedule has ended - usually 8 -12 weeks. After this test start using the 20 minute (60 total) FTP test.

See how you get on in the next 3 or 4 weeks and report back. Most of the people on here are trying to help but they do answer these types of questions often. For that reason sometimes the answers appear quick and blunt but i know it's not intended.

One last thing, as for your apparently low FTP. It's not overly low for someone who has not really trained with intensity. It will grow fast when you realise just how much you can give in these hour sessions. Give it a bit of time and you WILL see results.


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## Dusty Bin (23 Nov 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> In other words i'd suggest that 2 hours at 80-90% effort would be more beneficial than a 5 hour ride which you pootle along without purpose.



True - but if you are using HR, then anything above about 85% is unlikely to be sustainable for two hours.


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## Pedrosanchezo (23 Nov 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> True - but if you are using HR, then anything above about 85% is unlikely to be sustainable for two hours.


Absolutely. 2 hours on a turbo at 85-90% would destroy a fit man! An outdoor ride though will have many sections, like downhills, where the cyclist will stop pedalling and regain a bit of composure. So i'll rephrase to say "mostly" 80-90% when pedalling". Just equates to longer intervals really.


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## dr-ivan (24 Nov 2013)

@Pedrosanchezo: Thank you, I really appreciate that you took the time to write such a detailed reply. It cleared up many of the uncertainties I had in addition to addressing my original question. I will return in some weeks to report back!


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## dr-ivan (23 Feb 2014)

Dear all, 

I am finally back to report on the progress. Several things have changed. I made myself a present for Christmas - Garmin Vector pedals. After much testing, my FTP was around 200 or 205, instead of the previously stated 180-185. Which is not half-bad (at least better than the paltry results from before). With the new equipment, I embarked on my first training program with TrainerRoad.

I chose the 6-week Sweet Spot Base (1). It was interrupted for 2 weeks, 1 week on vacation and 1 week due to illness. After the completed program, I did one week variety and one week of rest and easy recovery spins.

Previously I had used the 8 minute FTP test, but - following your advice - I went for the full 20 minute test this time. I do not know whether I shouldn't have planned three whole off-days before the testing, but I collapsed at around 13 minutes after targeting around 225-230W. Being rather disappointed, I tried 8-minute test the following day. I improved my FTP with 15W, to 215W with two rather smooth 238W 8-minute intervals.

I am rather happy with the result, so I will go on to Sweet Spot Base (2) spiced up with some longer intervals (f.ex. 2x20m @FTP) until the outside season begins.

Thank you all for helping me a while back!


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## Pedrosanchezo (23 Feb 2014)

Good effort. Glad things are going to plan! 

Stick with the 20minute test though, just drop your target watts by 5-10% in order to finish. Then try and raise power with 2 minutes to go - give it everything. The 8 minute test tends to overestimate actual FTP.


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## dr-ivan (24 Feb 2014)

Thanks for the heads up, Pedrosanchezo! I am planning to try the 20-minute test again soon, will see if I fare any better then.


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