# Petition for law change - Ebike Assist Limit



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/260665


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## MontyVeda (10 Jun 2019)

what law wants changing?


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> what law wants changing?


read the petition......it will answer your question


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

If it's so good & you support it why not advise what it's about, I won't be clicking a random link on a random website


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## Crackle (10 Jun 2019)

I'm not signing that, I have enough trouble getting past the things anyway!

Seriously, it sounds OK to me, probably has implications for battery life though.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> If it's so good & you support it why not advise what it's about, I won't be clicking a random link on a random website


its a UK government petiton....not a random website for god sake

change the title just for you


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

It would be good manners to explain what the petition you're asking folk to support is about.
Just saying 'read it and find out' isn't the way to sway your audience.


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## rugby bloke (10 Jun 2019)

This is an interesting one - 15 mph is pretty much my average speed over a long ride so I can understand why this is picked as cut off point. However, checking the stats for my commute through London, which is essentially a series of sprints between traffic lights, and my top speed was 32 mph for a 47 second dash so I can also see why losing the electric assist at 15 mph would not be very helpful. 
Having never ridden an e bike it would be good to know what it feels like when the electric assist cuts out - is there a dramatic change in the feel of the bike or does it just become slower and more sluggish ?


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

rugby bloke said:


> This is an interesting one - 15 mph is pretty much my average speed over a long ride so I can understand why this is picked as cut off point. However, checking the stats for my commute through London, which is essentially a series of sprints between traffic lights, and my top speed was 32 mph for a 47 second dash so I can also see why losing the electric assist at 15 mph would not be very helpful.
> Having never ridden an e bike it would be good to know what it feels like when the electric assist cuts out - is there a dramatic change in the feel of the bike or does it just become slower and more sluggish ?


it feels more sluggish and harder to maintain speed after the cut off point.......but when you can ride an ordinary bike at way above 15.5mph and car engines are not limited to speed or torque and motor bikes are not limited to speed or torque, then why should ebikes


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## fossyant (10 Jun 2019)

It's OK raising the limits, but you are getting into compulsory insurance etc as it's a mechanically propelled vehicle.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> It would be good manners to explain what the petition you're asking folk to support is about.
> Just saying 'read it and find out' isn't the way to sway your audience.


i posted a petition, i didnt post a debate on whether it should happen to try and sway people.........


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

fossyant said:


> It's OK raising the limits, but you are getting into compulsory insurance etc as it's a mechanically propelled vehicle.


US limit is 20mph and no insurance is required


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> it feels more sluggish and harder to maintain speed after the cut off point.......but when you can ride an ordinary bike at way above 15.5mph and car engines are not limited to speed or torque and motor bikes are not limited to speed or torque, then why should ebikes


Mopeds are restricted to 30mph


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## fossyant (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> US limit is 20mph and no insurance is required



Ah that's not so bad on road, although it's a bit different on trails getting an e-bike blasting past at 20 uphill, yikes - bad enough at 15 mph as they are often doubling your speed. Last few times I and other's from here, have been to Degla, the only bikes passing us were e-bikes, and they didn't half catch up quickly.


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> i posted a petition, i didnt post a debate on whether it should happen to try and sway people.........



You didn't post a link to a petition in the hope that others would support it?
Ha ha ha ha


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## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

Don't sign this petition!
I don't want to share cycle cycle tracks with powered machines capable of 20 mph!
If people want to ride powered two wheelers capable of 20mph then they must be restricted to onroad.
It is my understanding that local government in NL has been given the power to ban powered two wheelers on cycle paths since April 2019 in an effort to reduce the number of crashes.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

snorri said:


> Don't sign this petition!
> I don't want to share cycle cycle tracks with powered machines capable of 20 mph!
> If people want to ride powered two wheelers capable of 20mph then they must be restricted to onroad.


you still have to pedal them upto that speed, not so easy on mtb tyres and wheel, especially uphill

but each to their own


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Mopeds are restricted to 30mph


so 15mph more than an ebike and 10mph more than the petition and on a moped you dont need to pedal, just turn a throttle


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> so 15mph more than an ebike and 10mph more than the petition and on a moped you dont need to pedal, just turn a throttle


Correct, but to ride one you have to pass a test, have to wear a helmet to an approved & recognised standard, have to have insurance, carry registration plates, have an annual test, pay VED, only use recognised highways, are you prepared to do all that with your e-Bike?


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

I've signed. Our club leisure rides are often over 15mph on flat or gently rising sections and it is hard and painful for me to put in the considerable extra effort to propel my e-road Orbea Gain above the cut off for more than a short period. Result - I tend to be drop behind the group. They are a good bunch and they will wait, but I don't think they should feel they have to . Of course if you legs are OK it's perfectly possible to ride above 15.5mph cut off - there is NO limit to speed under muscle power alone - so Snorri might be sharing his cycle track with speeding ebikes anyway


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Correct, but to ride one you have to pass a test, have to wear a helmet to an approved & recognised standard, have to have insurance, carry registration plates, have an annual test, pay VED, only use recognised highways, are you prepared to do all that with your e-Bike?


i doubt that would need to happen upto 20mph......as stated, its already 20mph in the US

especially as pedal powered bikes can already exceed that limit without the necessary helmet, VED, testing etc etc etc etc


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## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

If you want higher assisted speeds, buy a speed pedelec, the law already allows for them. You'll need a registration plate, VED (albeit free) helmet and insurance.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> I've signed. Our club leisure rides are often over 15mph on flat or gently rising sections and it is hard and painful for me to put in the considerable extra effort to propel my e-road Orbea Gain above the cut off for more than a short period. Result - I tend to be drop behind the group. They are a good bunch and they will wait, but I don't think they should feel they have to . Of course if you legs are OK it's perfectly possible to ride above 15.5mph cut off - there is NO limit to speed under muscle power alone - so Snorri might be sharing his cycle track with speeding ebikes anyway


i totally agree.....its not the position of anti ebikes though


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

snorri said:


> Don't sign this petition!
> I don't want to share cycle cycle tracks with powered machines capable of 20 mph!
> If people want to ride powered two wheelers capable of 20mph then they must be restricted to onroad.
> It is my understanding that local government in NL has been given the power to ban powered two wheelers on cycle paths since April 2019 in an effort to reduce the number of crashes.




Not signed here either, 15.6mph seems adequate to me.

The opening blurb is difficult to fully understand too, it reads as though the author finds it a bother to ride between the 15.6mph cut-off point and 18mph where he, inexplicably, regains control of the bike.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/260665 It's not very well worded unfortunately.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Not signed here either, 15.6mph seems adequate to me.
> 
> The opening blurb is difficult to fully understand too, it reads as though the author finds it a bother to ride between the 15.6mph cut-off point and 18mph where he, inexplicably, regains control of the bike.


why does 15.6mph seem adequate??


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> as stated, its already 20mph in the US


I fail to see the relevance, are you suggesting we all bear arms?


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## Gary E (10 Jun 2019)

I'm not anti-ebikes, I think they're a great idea that allows people to partake in our hobby when they otherwise might not be able to and I can definitely see a day when I'll be looking to buy one. That said, I wonder why the speed needs to be increased? If the speed goes up to 20 mph then I certainly won't be able to keep up (even at my fittest and fastest I could only manage an 18-19 mph average).
I understand that 15 mph won't be enough to keep up with club rides in some instances but how's that any different to someone on a normal bike not being able to keep up in a ride that's beyond their normal ability?
As I said, I'm not anti-ebikes in any way and I remain open minded (and ready to be convinced otherwise) but I really don't see a strong case for increasing beyond a speed that lots of non-assisted riders would already struggle to maintain.


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

A 20mph cut off for ebikes would be nice to have on the road, although i'm happy with the current 15 and like the battery range with this set cut off.
But an issue for me would be, that if they raised the motor cut off speed, they could possibly only allow ebikes on the road and not all the other places that ebikes currently have the privilege of using. I dont want to see ebikes differentiated from bicycles on where they can go.
So for that reason, i'm not signing it.


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## dan_bo (10 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Mopeds are restricted to 30mph



I thought mopeds were restricted to 12ps


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## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

dan_bo said:


> I thought mopeds were restricted to 12ps


You might be correct, I can only find "The term _moped_ (assigned category AM on a UK driving licence) describes any low-powered motor driven cycle with an engine capacity not greater than 50 cc (3.1 cu in) and a maximum design speed of no more than 45 km/h (28 mph)" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moped and https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/bike-categories-ages-and-licence-requirements where it states 4kW


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

[


Phaeton said:


> Sorry but it was yourself who was using it as a comparison as though they have it so we should, I see no reason why the speed needs to be increased, they are an aid to the rider, once you go above 15mph they then become a method of motorised transport (see @Smudge above). Oh just in case you want to use the anti-ebkie retort, I already own one, or at least my better half does.


Aren't they 'a method of motorised transport' anyway, below 15.5 mph? It is a completely arbitrary figure.


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> why does 15.6mph seem adequate??




It's for the petitioner to show why it's *not* adequate and argue the case with supporting evidence, not for me to show the opposite.

Having said that, if I ever get back to commuting by bicycle I would happily consider an e-bike in its current specification. 15.6mph is well above my 12mph average speed so it would be a welcome boost to my travel time, especially homeward as that's all uphill and typically into a headwind.

The good news is that new guidance has been issued allowing employers to give access to e-bikes via Cycle2Work schemes above the usual £1000 cap (see https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...hout-1000-limit-launched-uk-government-426596) and, if you're lucky enough to live in Scotland, you can get an interest-free loan of up to £6000. (see https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/grants-loans/ebike-loan)


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

snorri said:


> I don't want to share cycle cycle tracks with powered machines capable of 20 mph!


Neither do I.
Bad enough the non assisted bikes that go at 20mph on segregated cycle facilities!


jowwy said:


> why does 15.6mph seem adequate??


I agree with @glasgowcyclist.
Increasing the speed limit of Ebikes is not safe for users of segregated/shared cycle facilities.
Unless the users of faster Ebikes stick to the roads.
Of course, as there could be no enforcement of a law that makes them use the roads, they will mostly be on the paths.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> It's for the petitioner to show why it's *not* adequate and argue the case with supporting evidence, not for me to show the opposite.
> 
> Having said that, if I ever get back to commuting by bicycle I would happily consider an e-bike in its current specification. 15.6mph is well above my 12mph average speed so it would be a welcome boost to my travel time, especially homeward as that's all uphill and typically into a headwind.
> 
> The good news is that new guidance has been issued allowing employers to give access to e-bikes via Cycle2Work schemes above the usual £1000 cap (see https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...hout-1000-limit-launched-uk-government-426596) and, if you're lucky enough to live in Scotland, you can get an interest-free loan of up to £6000. (see https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/grants-loans/ebike-loan)


im not the petitioner.....so im asking you, why you think 15.6mph s adequate???


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Neither do I.
> Bad enough the non assisted bikes that go at 20mph on segregated cycle facilities!
> 
> I agree with @glasgowcyclist.
> ...


but its ok for non-assisted bikes to ride over 15.6mph on shared use paths.......and why does it make it less safe, just because its an ebike??

are you saying a mountain/road bike travelling at 20mph is more safe than an ebike travelling at 20mph?? and if so why is that so??


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## Spinney (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> im not the petitioner.....so im asking you, why you think 15.6mph s adequate???


No, but you're the one who wants folks on here to sign the thing.


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## Mugshot (10 Jun 2019)

I expect it's to do with Strava.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Spinney said:


> No, but you're the one who wants folks on here to sign the thing.


im not wanting anyone to do anything.....i just posted a link to a petition with no other comments attached

i neither said please sign or dont sign......its upto others whether they support or do not


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> but its ok for non-assisted bikes to ride over 15.6mph on shared use paths.......and why does it make it less safe, just because its an ebike??


No, it's not OK, but there's no petition about it for me to sign.
It's not safe because faster makes it harder to stop in time to avoid the hazards of a shared path.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> No, it's not OK, but there's no petition about it for me to sign.
> It's not safe because faster makes it harder to stop in time to avoid the hazards of a shared path.


but its ok for normal bikes to ride at those speeds unrestricted??


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## Spinney (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> but its ok for normal bikes to ride at those speeds unrestricted??


Why increase the number of inconsiderate riders in such places? And on heavier bikes, too - heavier = more damage in a collision.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> It's for the petitioner to show why it's *not* adequate and argue the case with supporting evidence, not for me to show the opposite.
> 
> Having said that, if I ever get back to commuting by bicycle I would happily consider an e-bike in its current specification. *15.6mph is well above my 12mph average speed* so it would be a welcome boost to my travel time, especially homeward as that's all uphill and typically into a headwind.
> 
> The good news is that new guidance has been issued allowing employers to give access to e-bikes via Cycle2Work schemes above the usual £1000 cap (see https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...hout-1000-limit-launched-uk-government-426596) and, if you're lucky enough to live in Scotland, you can get an interest-free loan of up to £6000. (see https://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/grants-loans/ebike-loan)



15.6 mph is well above my *average* speed on a club ride too. Even on an ebike.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Spinney said:


> Why increase the number of inconsiderate riders in such places? And on heavier bikes, too - heavier = more damage in a collision.


and so do heavier riders...so your argument is mute in this case


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

Current cut out is fine and ensures ebike average speeds are similar to non assisted bikes.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Current cut out is fine and ensures ebike average speeds are similar to non assisted bikes.


average speed where and compared to who???


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

I think 15.5 mph cut off is a good compromise for ebikes, it isn't painfully slow on the road and you dont have too much motor speed to consistently be reckless on cycle paths, tracks, canal paths.
If it were set at 20 mph, then there will be those that want 25..... and so on and so forth.
Plus with the possibly restrictions that could go with an increase in motor speed, i say better the devil you know.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> average speed where and compared to who???



The UK and compared to the national average for male cyclists.


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> im not the petitioner.....so im asking you, why you think 15.6mph s adequate???




I refer you to my post that you just quoted.


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## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> as stated, its already 20mph in the US



The States are a pretty big place! I think you'll find that there are a lot of state, city, and park rules that vary that 20 mph down as far as zero!

I am not anti Ebike at all, but 15mph is more than fast enough for recreational cycling. For utility cycling at a higher speed they need to be separated from regular bikes.

I'm fairly sure a less confrontational style would have save you a lot of confrontation


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> but its ok for normal bikes to ride at those speeds unrestricted??


Didn't I already answer?
No, imo, it's not OK on segregated/shared cycling facilities.
Road users on two wheels need to be fast to keep up with cars.
Shared paths users need to be slower for mine and the park's squirrels safety.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

If it was a petition to reduce speed limits to a default of 20 mph on all roads within built up areas. Now I could sign that.


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## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> but its ok for non-assisted bikes to ride over 15.6mph on shared use paths.......and why does it make it less safe, just because its an ebike??


It is not OK for non assisted bikes to travel in excess of 15mph on shared paths, but it happens infrequently and so is tolerated in law.
The extra weight of an ebike will tend to cause more harm and damage to who or what it collides with.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Didn't I already answer?
> No, imo, it's not OK on segregated/shared cycling facilities.
> Road users on two wheels need to be fast to keep up with cars.
> Shared paths users need to be slower for mine and the park's squirrels safety.


but this is for all riders, not just shared path users


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

snorri said:


> It is not OK for non assisted bikes to travel in excess of 15mph on shared paths, but it happens infrequently and so is tolerated in law.
> The extra weight of an ebike will tend to cause more harm and damage to who or what it collides with.


some ebikes weigh less than fully loaded touring bikes........so again your argument is mute in this case


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## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> but this is for all riders, not just shared path users


I think the point most are trying to make is that if e-bikes want to increase the limit to 20 mph then they need to stay on the road - an effective banning from dedicated cycling paths and MUPs.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Can we have a petiton to reduce dogs lead to no more than 4 feet?


or no walkers or dogs or hikers on cycle paths


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> some ebikes weigh less than fully loaded touring bikes........so again your argument is mute in this case



How many fully loaded tour bikes hit 20mph on a flat shared used path?


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I think the point most are trying to make is that if e-bikes want to increase the limit to 20 mph then they need to stay on the road - an effective banning from dedicated cycling paths and MUPs.


dedicated cycle paths or mixed use paths???


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## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> a less confrontational style would still bring about the anti ebiker community with their non arguments


Maybe..... but you've lost me..... and I have no problem with E-bikes. 

I do have a problem with a**h*les on bikes though - electric or not.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> How many fully loaded tour bikes hit 20mph on a flat shared used path?


ive seen quite a few were i live in south wales, both on the flat and downhill....but lets just complain about the ebike


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

Who else feels inadequate with a 15.6mph speed. I don't....


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Maybe..... but you've lost me..... and I have no problem with E-bikes.
> 
> I do have a problem with a**h*les on bikes though - electric or not.


i have a problem with them in life...but that aint gonna change lol


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> ive seen quite a few were i live in south wales, both on the flat and downhill....but lets just complain about the ebike



So you feel inadequtae as fully loaded tour bikes steam past you; Is that where this is stemming from?


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Who else feels inadequate with a 15.6mph speed. I don't....


i propel my ebike faster than 15.6mph....so i too don't feel inadequate, but the petitioner feels otherwise


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> So you feel inadequtae as fully loaded tour bikes steam past you; Is that where this is stemming from?


see above reply


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

Maybe ebikes should cut out at 11mph to keep up with London traffic?


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## Nibor (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> it feels more sluggish and harder to maintain speed after the cut off point.......but when you can ride an ordinary bike at way above 15.5mph and car engines are not limited to speed or torque and motor bikes are not limited to speed or torque, then why should ebikes


Because cars and motorbikes have to be insured and MOT tested.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Who else feels inadequate with a 15.6mph speed. I don't....


Irrelevant. As is the paths argument. The Highway Code advises using the road if you are riding 18mph+
I'll edit that before anyone corrects me - it was proposed in a code of conduct.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Maybe ebikes should cut out at 11mph to keep up with London traffic?


maybe cars and motorbikes should have speed restrictions applied to them too in that case, as they case most of the fatalities


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> If it was a petition to reduce speed limits to a default of 20 mph on all roads within built up areas. Now I could sign that.


There is such a petition in Scotland.
Sadly motor lobby's opposition is strong.
The 20mph zones that already in place are not patrolled by police, the speed limit is mostly ignored ime.


jowwy said:


> some ebikes weigh less than fully loaded touring bikes........so again your argument is mute in this case


The moment I see a fully loaded bike tourer riding at 20mph along the Clyde cycle path, or indeed on any of the paths I travel daily, or indeed on any tour I might take in the future, I will eat the helmet I don't wear


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## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> dedicated cycle paths or mixed use paths???



Both.

I think the idea is simply that if someone wants to use an Ebike they're more than welcome to - so long as they are in line, speed-wise, with the other bike traffic.
Once they start to go faster, especially significantly faster, than the majority of the bike traffic, then they should not be able to share the same space. 

It's relatively easy to enforce. Does your motor cut out at 15 mph? Then you can cycle anywhere a regular bike can.
Does your motor run above 15 mph? Sorry, you have to stay on the road.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> maybe cars and motorbikes should have speed restrictions applied to them too in that case, as they case most of the fatalities



Good idea, what shall we call these restrictions "speed limits"?


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

[QUOTE="HobbesOnTour said:


> Both.
> 
> I think the idea is simply that if someone wants to use an Ebike they're more than welcome to - so long as they are in line, speed-wise, with the other bike traffic.
> Once they start to go faster, especially significantly faster, than the majority of the bike traffic, then they should not be able to share the same space.
> ...


but regular bikes ride above 15mph and they can use shared paths with no restrictions, just cause the cut off speed is 20mph it doesnt mean you have to travek at 20mph....you restrict your own speed relative to the situation, the same as ordinary bike riders do.........so another non argument


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Good idea, what shall we call these restrictions "speed limits"?


the cars are not limited to those speeds........and its upto the police to enforce them and not the manufacturers, so yet another non arguement


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## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

IIt


jowwy said:


> some ebikes weigh less than fully loaded touring bikes........so again your argument is mute in this case


Again, the number of fully laden touring bikes travelling in excess of 15mph is so low as to allow them to be tolerated in law.


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## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> dedicated cycle paths or mixed use paths???


Both.


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## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Road users on two wheels need to be fast to keep up with cars.
> Shared paths users need to be slower for mine and the park's squirrels safety.





HobbesOnTour said:


> I think the point most are trying to make is that if e-bikes want to increase the limit to 20 mph then they need to stay on the road - an effective banning from dedicated cycling paths and MUPs



Just as normal bikes its not compulsory to ride them to their limit on cycle paths or anywhere else, ebikes and normal bikes should be ridden at speeds that are appropriate to the conditions, 20mph sounds reasonable to me, there are crazy riders on normal bikes and there will be crazy riders on ebikes.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> the cars are not limited to those speeds........and its upto the police to enforce them and not the manufacturers, so yet another non arguement



But you said you regularly ride above 15.6mph on your ebike so the restrictions clearly aren't working on your ebike. How do we gte a change in law so ebike brakes come on at 15.7mph?


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> some ebikes weigh less than fully loaded touring bikes........so again your argument is mute in this case




Even if they can occasionally and briefly reach it, fully loaded tourers will not be maintaining anything near the current top speed of an assisted e-bike, let alone the 20mph that you claim you are not seeking support for. And I think this is where some of the other posters have concerns on shared use paths; e-bikes can chug along with little comparatively little input (depending on settings) at their top speed for hours. A self-propelled average Jo Bloggs can't do that so the tendency is for the pace of these routes to be fairly slow and therefore predictable and safe. A 20mph e-bike would turn that on its head.

And the word you're looking for is moot, not mute which means something else entirely.


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## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> Irrelevant. As is the paths argument. The Highway Code advises using the road if you are riding 18mph+



Can you specify where? I can't find any reference to 18mph in realtion to cycling anywhere in the HC.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82


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## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> Just as normal bikes its not compulsory to ride them to their limit on cycle paths or anywhere else, ebikes and normal bikes should be ridden at speeds that are appropriate to the conditions, 20mph sounds reasonable to me, there are crazy riders on normal bikes and there will be crazy riders on ebikes.



But..... my craziness is limited by my physical ability on my regular bike. That's not the case on an E-bike.

I live in Holland - Ebikes everywhere. Most are not a problem - they tootle along at a regular speed. The problems are with the high speed commuters. They deserve to be regulated.


----------



## CXRAndy (10 Jun 2019)

Im converting my wife's bike to an ebike. It will be customised for variable speed cutout. I ride around 17-18 mph solo so I will set her bike for 19 mph to cut assist, so we can ride together.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> the cars are not limited to those speeds........and its upto the police to enforce them and not the manufacturers, so yet another non arguement



The police enforce the law not manufacturers. I'd have thought that was obvious.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> But you said you regularly ride above 15.6mph on your ebike so the restrictions clearly aren't working on your ebike. How do we gte a change in law so ebike brakes come on at 15.7mph?


the law states it can only assist upto 15.6mph, after that the motor cuts out and you can pedal upto any speed you want under your own power. therefore i'm not breaking any laws as regards to ebikes....i thank you


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Can you specify where? I can't find any reference to 18mph in realtion to cycling anywhere in the HC.
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82


Apologies, it was proposed in a code of conduct for the use of shared facilities


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## derrick (10 Jun 2019)

I think more people would sign a petition to reduce E bike speed to 12mph. I would sign that one.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> The police enforce the law not manufacturers. I'd have thought that was obvious.


thats what i'm saying....police enforce speed laws not manufacturers...so why are manufacturers being enforced to govern ebike limits??


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Even if they can occasionally and briefly reach it, fully loaded tourers will not be maintaining anything near the current top speed of an assisted e-bike, let alone the 20mph that you claim you are not seeking support for. And I think this is where some of the other posters have concerns on shared use paths; e-bikes can chug along with little comparatively little input (depending on settings) at their top speed for hours. A self-propelled average Jo Bloggs can't do that so the tendency is for the pace of these routes to be fairly slow and therefore predictable and safe. A 20mph e-bike would turn that on its head.
> 
> And the word you're looking for is moot, not mute which means something else entirely.


they cannot chug along at 15.6mph with little to no input and they couldnt do it for hours n end either, as battery size is the limit here........unless they are the old style throttle ebikes, not the new ebikes governed by the speed limit and pedal assist


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

*ebike cycle speed limits should be reduced* by at least 15 mph (25 km/h)


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

*ebike cycle speed limits should be reduced*, according to Toronto.


A study conducted by the University of Toronto's Transportation Research Institute (TRI) concluded bicycling in the city hit 80 km/h, or nearly the speed of a car, at rush hour.

The report cites that it's safe, however, to use an ebike for two straight kilometres.


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## Spinney (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> and so do heavier riders...so your argument is mute in this case


I think you mean moot.

I disagree. The weight of the bike can be legislated for, the weight of the rider cannot (well, I suppose it could be, in theory, but I can't see that ever happening).


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

derrick said:


> I think more people would sign a petition to reduce E bike speed to 12mph. I would sign that one.


Why's that then? Hope your never in a position where you need to use one.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> they cannot chug along at 15.6mph with little to no input and they couldnt do it for hours n end either, as battery size is the limit here........unless they are the old style throttle ebikes, not the new ebikes governed by the speed limit and pedal assist
> 
> i better education of ebikes is required for you me thinks



*they cannot chug along at 15.6mph with little to no input * from the pedal. At this point they become extremely twitchy, and unable to control their speed and therefore, the result is a very high rate of braking , especially by inexperienced ebikers!


----------



## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> ..so why are manufacturers being enforced to govern ebike limits??


In order to protect the vulnerable.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> *they cannot chug along at 15.6mph with little to no input * from the pedal. At this point they become extremely twitchy, and unable to control their speed and therefore, the result is a very high rate of braking , especially by inexperienced ebikers!


????


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> *they cannot chug along at 15.6mph with little to no input * from the pedal. At this point they become extremely twitchy, and unable to control their speed and therefore, the result is a very high rate of braking , especially by inexperienced ebikers!


they do not become titchy at all, the same as no other bike becomes twitchy at above that speed.....dear me, we are pulling out some rather strange arguments with this one


----------



## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> they cannot chug along at 15.6mph *with little to no input* and they couldnt do it for hours n end either, as battery size is the limit here........unless they are the old style throttle ebikes, not the new ebikes governed by the speed limit and pedal assist
> 
> i better education of ebikes is required for you me thinks




Poor effort there at misrepresenting what I wrote, which was actually "*comparatively little input* (depending on settings)".


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

snorri said:


> In order to protect the vulnerable.


what??? are you serious


----------



## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> a less confrontational style would still bring about the anti ebiker community with their non arguments


*Mod Note:*
Everybody has been civil to you in this thread.
Please return the favour or you could find yourself excluded from your own thread.
Thanks.



jowwy said:


> dedicated cycle paths or mixed use paths???


Both.


Afnug said:


> Just as normal bikes its not compulsory to ride them to their limit on cycle paths or anywhere else, ebikes and normal bikes should be ridden at speeds that are appropriate to the conditions, 20mph sounds reasonable to me, there are crazy riders on normal bikes and there will be crazy riders on ebikes.


Agree.
Ime the fit, 20mph rider rarely uses the urban cycle paths, I can live with the few that do.
I would prefer Ebikes to stay restricted at the speed they are now, for the same reasons @glasgowcyclist states:


glasgowcyclist said:


> And I think this is where some of the other posters have concerns on shared use paths; e-bikes can chug along with little comparatively little input (depending on settings) at their top speed for hours. A self-propelled average Jo Bloggs can't do that so the tendency is for the pace of these routes to be fairly slow and therefore predictable and safe. A 20mph e-bike would turn that on its head.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Poor effort there at misrepresenting what I wrote, which was actually "*comparatively little input* (depending on settings)".


and yet again my answer is the same.....it still requires lots of effort to keep the bike going at upto or over 15.6mph


----------



## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> But..... my craziness is limited by my physical ability on my regular bike. That's not the case on an E-bike.
> 
> I live in Holland - Ebikes everywhere. Most are not a problem - they tootle along at a regular speed. The problems are with the high speed commuters. They deserve to be regulated.



Your physical ability might limit your craziness, but a lot of people can maintain speeds well above 15.5 mph (25 Kph) and some do even on cycle paths, as you have observed most ebikes are not a problem, are all the high speed commuters ebikes ? I suspect not, over here in UK a lot of commuters will exceed 15mph on parts of their journey and sometimes its safer to do so, although I think 20 mph is reasonable for an ebike, I realise some people will ride them inappropriately but some people also ride normal bikes inappropriately.


----------



## roadrash (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> it feels more sluggish and harder to maintain speed after the cut off point.......but when you can ride an ordinary bike at way above 15.5mph and car engines are not limited to speed or torque and motor bikes are not limited to speed or torque, then why should ebikes









Phaeton said:


> Correct, but to ride one you have to pass a test, have to wear a helmet to an approved & recognised standard, have to have insurance, carry registration plates, have an annual test, pay VED, only use recognised highways, are you prepared to do all that with your e-Bike


 
I would be interested to see your answer to phaetons question


----------



## Crackle (10 Jun 2019)

This e-bike assisted thread is moving quite quickly


----------



## roadrash (10 Jun 2019)

Crackle said:


> This e-bike assisted thread is moving quite quickly



perhaps it ought to be restricted


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

Sounds like the e bike thread is running out of control at 20 mph, maybe slow it down to a speed the OP can control.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> and yet again my answer is the same.....it still requires lots of effort to keep the bike going at upto or over 15.6mph



You are still completely ignoring the word *comparatively.*


----------



## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> Your physical ability might limit your craziness, but a lot of people can maintain speeds well above 15.5 mph (25 Kph) and some do even on cycle paths, as you have observed most ebikes are not a problem, are all the high speed commuters ebikes ? I suspect not, over here in UK a lot of commuter will exceed 15mph on parts of their journey and sometimes its safer to do so, although I think 20 mph is reasonable for an ebike, I realise some people will ride them inappropriately but some people also ride normal bikes inappropriately.



20 mph is reasonable for an E-bike - but it is not reasonable for a normal bike.

That there is the problem.

To win this argument you need to convince people why someone on an E-bike can get assistance up to a speed beyond what your average cyclist rides at. With all respect, I don't believe that is winnable.

This is Holland - lots of people commute to work. Most do not use E-bikes. But, there is a new kid on the block - the commuter with a powerful E-bike. And they are out of kilter with the other traffic on the cycle paths.


----------



## mustang1 (10 Jun 2019)

I'm up for this. 

Btw I thought USA e-bike limit was 28mph.


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> 20 mph is reasonable for an E-bike - but it is not reasonable for a normal bike.
> 
> That there is the problem.
> 
> ...


"Not reasonable for a normal bike" Seriously? Have you never ridden at or above 20mph?


----------



## CXRAndy (10 Jun 2019)

Ive got nothing against the sentiment of the petition. It just needs to be rewritten to be more coherent to deliver a reasonable argument.

As I've said Im planning to ebike convert and will my own judgement on the limit of assist


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

I wonder if this has something to do with the TDF?


----------



## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> "Not reasonable for a normal bike" Seriously? Have you never ridden at or above 20mph?



Yes. I'm serious.

But..... I live in the Netherlands. Most of my cycling here is done on dedicated bike paths or quiet roads with marked cycling lanes. 20 mph is the exception. I'd suggest the average speed of most cyclists here is 10 mph or less.

Most of the "wielrenners", ie roadies, will avoid the most popular cycle paths, simply because the traffic levels will slow them down. 

In any case, I'd think most cyclists would struggle to ride a reasonable distance at an average of 20 mph.

This is a cycling forum - most people are cyclists. A lot of people on bikes do not see themselves as cyclists. 

There is a difference.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Sounds like the e bike thread is running out of control at 20 mph, maybe slow it down to a speed the OP can control.


As per the mod note.....lets keep it civil


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> As per the mod note.....lets keep it civil



Yes let's keep it a nice steady 15.6 mph


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## CXRAndy (10 Jun 2019)

This has just appeared which will rapidly increase use of ebikes. 

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...hout-1000-limit-launched-uk-government-426596

Given time the UK government might adopt a more realistic policy


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding maximum and average speed. 


HobbesOnTour said:


> Yes. I'm serious.
> 
> But..... I live in the Netherlands. Most of my cycling here is done on dedicated bike paths or quiet roads with marked cycling lanes. 20 mph is the exception. I'd suggest the average speed of most cyclists here is 10 mph or less.
> 
> ...



We aren't discussing an AVERAGE of 20mph, but a maximum assisted speed, after which the motor cuts out. There seems to be some confusion about this.
As for the "wielrenners" the situation is exactly the same here in the UK - I wouldn't use a shared path if I could avoid it.


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## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> This has just appeared which will rapidly increase use of ebikes.
> 
> https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...hout-1000-limit-launched-uk-government-426596
> 
> Given time the UK government might adopt a more realistic policy


Deserves another thread - but what about concessions for the non working, the retired and less able?


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Im converting my wife's bike to an ebike. It will be customised for variable speed cutout. I ride around 17-18 mph solo so I will set her bike for 19 mph to cut assist, so we can ride together.


- and it will of course be illegal.


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## Profpointy (10 Jun 2019)

Maybe time to post this link again. 


View: https://youtu.be/vlxZs2-gICc


e-bikes are pretty damned fast already !


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> This has just appeared which will rapidly increase use of ebikes.
> 
> https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...hout-1000-limit-launched-uk-government-426596
> 
> Given time the UK government might adopt a more realistic policy





youngoldbloke said:


> Deserves another thread - but what about concessions for the non working, the retired and less able?


Mod Note:
There is another thread about this, here.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding maximum and average speed.
> 
> 
> We aren't discussing an AVERAGE of 20mph, but a maximum assisted speed, after which the motor cuts out. There seems to be some confusion about this.
> As for the "wielrenners" the situation is exactly the same here in the UK - I wouldn't use a shared path if I could avoid it.



Given the relative difference of effort required to keep a "normal" bike at 20 mph as opposed to an E-bike, I think it's perfectly valid to look more to average than maximum speed.

I would imagine that most E-bikers would be operating their bike up to the cut-off limit. 

And a cut off limit of 20 mph is too high in my experience and opinion.

Now, if you wanted to argue for a temporary boost to 20 mph for say 5 seconds on safety grounds, that would be a different argument.


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## mcshroom (10 Jun 2019)

If you want your ebike to go faster than 25 km/h, pedal it faster. A 25km/h assisted speed is well in excess of the average speed of most bicycles, and the places an unassisted bicycle is likely to exceed 25km/h are the ones that an unassisted e-bike would also exceed such a limit.

Either accept what you are asking for is actually a moped, with the requirements that attracts, or accept that 25 km/h is a pretty decent speed for a bicycle.

Or sulk that others don't support you. I suppose there is that option.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

mcshroom said:


> If you want your ebike to go faster than 25 km/h, pedal it faster. A 25km/h assisted speed is well in excess of the average speed of most bicycles, and the places an unassisted bicycle is likely to exceed 25km/h are the ones that an unassisted e-bike would also exceed such a limit.
> 
> Either accept what you are asking for is actually a moped, with the requirements that attracts, or accept that 25 km/h is a pretty decent speed for a bicycle.
> 
> Or sulk that others don't support you. I suppose there is that option.


Or put an argument forward, as they have done in the US which allows Ebikes a cut off speed of 20mph.........which has nothing to do with sulking or anything else. 

As I have already stated, I already have the ability to ride my ebike above the 15.5mph limit both on the flat and downhill, but people on this thread believe that’s illegal and it’s not.....some education aimed towards the unknowledgeable ebike is needed as to what is legal and illegal when it comes to Ebikes. Some are only using shared use paths as part of their argument, but Ebikes are allowed everywhere and are not just confined to shared use facilities. Some E Road bikers have also put debate/argument forward that increasing the limit would help in road use, when on club rides and for commuting. But those arguments have been quelled by the shouty anti Ebikers, which isn’t uncommon in this type of debate.


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## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Or put an argument forward, as they have done in the US which allows Ebikes a cut off speed of 20mph.........which has nothing to do with sulking or anything else.



You're going to have to put up a link for that.

From my reading E-bikes are automatically banned from lots of dedicated paths, MUPs and various state parks and other facilities.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Profpointy said:


> Maybe time to post this link again.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/vlxZs2-gICc
> ...



What ebike is he riding in this video???


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> You're going to have to put up a link for that.
> 
> From my reading E-bikes are automatically banned from lots of dedicated paths, MUPs and various state parks and other facilities.


They may well be banned from some facilities, but they still have a cut off of 20mph


----------



## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Ebikes are allowed everywhere and are not just confined to shared use facilities.


No one is arguing about that, but you still haven't answered #19


----------



## HobbesOnTour (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> They may well be banned from some facilities, but they still have a cut off of 20mph



And that is what is being said by most people on this thread....
You want the limit raised to 20 mph? Fine - just stay on the roads.


----------



## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

Maybe the US should drop their speed to 15.5mph, because that's what it is in Europe?


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Maybe the US should drop their speed to 15.5mph, because that's what it is in Europe?



I'm sure the OP would agree with that, since that is his line of reasoning.


----------



## roadrash (10 Jun 2019)

sounds to me like someone wanting moped ability, with bicycle rules...…. I say that because they have dodged the question as to whether they would be happy to abide by moped rules. which is confusing when he says.... cars are not restricted, motorbikes are not restricted so why should ebikes be,..... if ebikes were to be de-restricted then surely they would be bound by the same rules.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Maybe the US should drop their speed to 15.5mph, because that's what it is in Europe?


Why should they......they are happy with their allowable limits


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

mcshroom said:


> If you want your ebike to go faster than 25 km/h, pedal it faster. A 25km/h assisted speed is well in excess of the average speed of most bicycles, and the places an unassisted bicycle is likely to exceed 25km/h are the ones that an unassisted e-bike would also exceed such a limit.
> 
> Either accept what you are asking for is actually a moped, with the requirements that attracts, or accept that 25 km/h is a pretty decent speed for a bicycle.
> 
> Or sulk that others don't support you. I suppose there is that option.


I find this post hard to take seriously. Confusion again about average and maximum.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

roadrash said:


> sounds to me like someone wanting moped ability, with bicycle rules...…. I say that because they have dodged the question as to whether they would be happy to abide by moped rules. which is confusing when he says.... cars are not restricted, motorbikes are not restricted so why should ebikes be,..... if ebikes were to be de-restricted then surely they would be bound by the same rules.


I have no problems at all sticking to roads if that would be the law. The same as I haven’t dongled my ebike to break the legal limits set out in the laws. Which is why I’m taking the legal route of signing the petition to try and get the limit increased slightly. Until then I will use my ebike within the bounds of what is legally allowable in the UK.....on both shared use and road networks.

I hope this helps you in your desire for seeking my answer to the question.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

If you go on the petition map you can see where all the speedsters live.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> If you go on the petition map you can see where all the speedsters live.


Assuming that all petition signers are speedsters and not adhering to current ebike laws and petitioning for a change......not all E bikers break the assist laws.

That is riding an assisted ebike with a cut off assist of 15.6mph, then using their pedal power to go above that speed to which the E bike laws within the UK allow. Hope this helps in clearing up the issue you had earlier around riding above the pedal assist limit.


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

I think we have a pretty good bargain deal with how legislation is currently set on ebikes atm.
We can go wherever bicycles can go, dont have to pay tax & insurance or have an mot. Dont even have to wear a helmet if we dont want to.
From a motorcyclists pov, ebikes are real freedom.

Dont be greedy by wanting more, open your eyes to how good we have it.


----------



## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

roadrash said:


> sounds to me like someone wanting moped ability, with bicycle rules...…. I say that because they have dodged the question as to whether they would be happy to abide by moped rules. which is confusing when he says.... cars are not restricted, motorbikes are not restricted so why should ebikes be,..... if ebikes were to be de-restricted then surely they would be bound by the same rules.



Normal bicycles are not restricted (well only by the riders ability) and often exceed the speed of motorised vehicles, some people have advocated the same rules apply to cyclists as motor vehicles.


----------



## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Why should they......they are happy with their allowable limits



Seems like we are, also, given the responses in this thread.


----------



## raleighnut (10 Jun 2019)

Signed


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Seems like we are, also, given the responses in this thread.


Just how many are ebike users though?


----------



## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> Just how many are ebike users though?



You're not suggesting that only ebike users should have an opinion on this? My local (fantastic) paved offroad cycle path (NCN 568 across Burton Marsh and into Chester) is already starting to be used by ebike riders using derestricted bikes. Just last week i saw a guy on a Cube e-road bike, going way over 25mph whilst glass cranking and everyone was 'in his way' so it seemed.

All that will happen is if people don't get their way by having this new 20mph limit, they'll just adapt/hack their bikes to go beyond legal parameters. It's definitely already happening and it's a PITA.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Seems like we are, also, given the responses in this thread.


Non ebikers yes........some and not all ebikers NO


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> You're not suggesting that only ebike users should have an opinion on this? My local (fantastic) paved offroad cycle path (NCN 568 across Burton Marsh and into Chester) is already starting to be used by ebike riders using derestricted bikes. Just last week i saw a guy on a Cube e-road bike, going way over 25mph whilst glass cranking and everyone was 'in his way' so it seemed.
> 
> All that will happen is if people don't get their way by having this new 20mph limit, they'll just adapt/hack their bikes to go beyond legal parameters. It's definitely already happening and it's a PITA.


How do you know his bike was de-restricted?? And glass cranking as you put it, wouldn’t allow to ride at 25mph as some (not all Ebikes) provide zero assist at low cadence rates, therefore glass cranking does nothing.....or was he riding downhill and therefore was getting no assist at all as he was already over the 15.6mph assist limit


----------



## youngoldbloke (10 Jun 2019)

'glass cranking' - that's new to me.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

Still no one has posted a valid reason as to why you should be able to use an e bike motor to reach 20 mph.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> 'glass cranking' - that's new to me.


It’s what normal bikers call free wheeling as they have no requirement to pedal as they already going as fast as they require......most non ebikers assume that you don’t require any rider input to propel an ebike, they just go by the power of magic. They forget they are pedal assist and therefore have sensors within them to up or decrease assistance if no input via the cranks is sensed


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Still no one has posted a valid reason as to why you should be able to use an e bike motor to reach 20 mph.



Most ebikers want the restriction removed or increased to remove the feeling of the motor pulsing in and out and the unnatural feel of the ride, but ebike haters just think it so we can go faster and break the law. If I wanted to do that I could pay £100ish for a dongle and do it with ease and no one would even know. But as a law abiding citizen I look to ride within the legal limits of the current legislation and therefore ride my ebike with its current legal 15.6mph assist limit...

Hope this helps ease your anti ebike rhetoric and don’t class all ebike users as law breakers.


----------



## PK99 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> How do you know his bike was de-restricted?? *And glass cranking as you put it, wouldn’t allow to ride at 25mph as some (not all Ebikes) provide zero assist at low cadence rates, therefore glass cranking does nothing...*..or was he riding downhill and therefore was getting no assist at all as he was already over the 15.6mph assist limit
> 
> Way to many assumptions in your post to take it seriously to be honest



I see frigged (no pedalling required) e-bikes all the time. A particular local food delivery guy is a real menace.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

It is anti e bike to want them to have a reasonable cut off speed for the motor? Oh dear!


----------



## Spinney (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> We have, you just refrain from seeing it....
> 
> Most ebikers want the restriction removed or increased to remove the feeling of the motor pulsing in and out and the unnatural feel of the ride, but ebike haters just think it so we can go faster and break the law. If I wanted to do that I could pay £100ish for a dongle and do it with ease and no one would even know. But as a law abiding citizen I look to ride within the legal limits of the current legislation and therefore ride my ebike with its current legal 15.6mph assist limit...
> 
> Hope this helps ease your anti ebike rhetoric and don’t class all ebike users as law breakers.


Won't the pulsing in and out just happen at a higher speed, then, if the assist limit is raised?

What is needed is a bit of software or something to smooth the cutting in and out. Then you'll be happy with a smoother ride, and people who think the existing speed limit for assist is high enough will also be happy.

So technology, not a change in the law, could be a better solution.


----------



## Slick (10 Jun 2019)

It's probably already all been said in a very short space of time and whilst I'm not an e-biker Mrs Slick is and she loves it and if I could get away with it, I would love it too. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before I finally relent and invest in one so I do have an opinion as a user. 

The school boy still in me would love to get my hands on the unrestricted version in the shop when I was there, but realistically the current set up is enough. For the more able they can get up to any speed along as a non assisted bike and for the less able it's become much less about speed and more about the journey. Mrs Slick gave me quite a hard time last time out as she struggled to keep up when all she wanted to do was enjoy the scenery and just being out in the fresh air. I suppose I could sign the petition and hopefully she would keep up next time but I reckon that's just not what e-bikes are all about. Next time out I'll go a lot slower but obviously everyone has to make their own decisions but after a bit of thought, I'll not be signing. 

Interesting thread though.


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## Biff600 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> US limit is 20mph and no insurance is required



We aren't in the US !


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

PK99 said:


> I see frigged (no pedalling required) e-bikes all the time. A particular local food delivery guy is a real menace.


Pre-2014 Ebikes still exist, which legally allow throttle only use. Since the law change any new Ebikes must be pedal assist


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## Profpointy (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> What ebike is he riding in this video???



I think it's from Mugen, which has close links to the Honda family


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Spinney said:


> Won't the pulsing in and out just happen at a higher speed, then, if the assist limit is raised?
> 
> What is needed is a bit of software or something to smooth the cutting in and out. Then you'll be happy with a smoother ride, and people who think the existing speed limit for assist is high enough will also be happy.
> 
> So technology, not a change in the law, could be a better solution.


Not if you are physically incapable of reaching that speed and believe me, commuting home uphill even in my ebike is very difficult to reach 17mph and keep it there


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## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> But those arguments have been quelled by the shouty anti Ebikers, which isn’t uncommon in this type of debate.


There are no posts on this thread that could be described as the actions of 'shouty anti Ebikers'.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Profpointy said:


> I think it's from Mugen, which has close links to the Honda family


So not a pedal assist ebike then, which is what this thread is about


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Spinney said:


> Won't the pulsing in and out just happen at a higher speed, then, if the assist limit is raised?
> 
> What is needed is a bit of software or something to smooth the cutting in and out. Then you'll be happy with a smoother ride, and people who think the existing speed limit for assist is high enough will also be happy.
> 
> So technology, not a change in the law, could be a better solution.


The best at doing it so far is far out of reach financially to the regular ebike/commuter.......with increase in advanced technology, is increase in price, sometimes there’s a simpler non cost action that can be taken to aid all, not just the better financially elite


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## Profpointy (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> So not a pedal assist ebike then, which is what this thread is about



At the risk of treating seriously a light hearted post, I feel pedals are rather by the by. Surely the / your debate is about power or speed limits, no? Back in the day a petrol driven moped had to have pedals and be under 50cc until you got to 60mph "mopeds" which still retained token pedals. Sensibly they changed the rules to be 50cc and under 30mph (ish) and / or power limits, but are still treated to a lighter version of proper motorcycle rules


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Profpointy said:


> At the risk of treating seriously a light hearted post, I feel pedals are rather by the by. Surely the / your debate is about power or speed limits, no? Back in the day a petrol driven moped had to have pedals and be under 50cc until you got to 60mph "mopeds" which still retained token pedals. Sensibly they changed the rules to be 50cc and under 30mph (ish) and / or power limits, but are still treated to a lighter version of proper motorcycle rules


In the law changes made pedals are not by the by.....as newer Ebikes are cadence driven, therefore low or no pedalling would stop all assistance to the bike. Therefore you need to pedal to get the assist required......the assist is an increase in your own input, by a % allowance of the motor, low cadence = low assist......more input/cadence = more assist up to the allowable limit, in this case the 15.6mph speed limit. But it doesn’t mean you will automatically be boosted to that speed without regular input


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## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

I can tell when a rider is making no effort, or at least not the effort to ride at 25mph and overtaking pretty fit club riders into a headwind.

I know you're Mr ebiker around here and won't have anything said bad about them. I think they're great actually, but there are problems brewing.
15.5mph is adequate, IMO. If you want to go faster assisted, go here https://urbanebikes.com/collections/speed-pedelec they'll happily sell you want you think you need. Just don't be riding on protected cycle paths, if you don't mind.


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## booze and cake (10 Jun 2019)

I've got nothing against e-bikes and love the fact its getting folk out on bikes who otherwise wouldn't be able to enjoy the cycling experience.

But the current limits sound entirely sensible to me, e-bikes are not designed as speed machines, if you want to go faster, pedal harder, or get a motorbike or moped.


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## CXRAndy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Still no one has posted a valid reason as to why you should be able to use an e bike motor to reach 20 mph.



Conversely why 15.6mph?


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

booze and cake said:


> I've got nothing against e-bikes and love the fact its getting folk out on bikes who otherwise wouldn't be able to enjoy the cycling experience.
> 
> But the current limits sound entirely sensible to me, e-bikes are not designed as speed machines, if you want to go faster, pedal harder, or get a motorbike or moped.


What’s sensible to you about current limits???


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> I can tell when a rider is making no effort, or at least not the effort to ride at 25mph and overtaking pretty fit club riders into a headwind.
> 
> I know you're Mr ebiker around here and won't have anything said bad about them. I think they're great actually, but there are problems brewing.
> 15.5mph is adequate, IMO. If you want to go faster assisted, go here https://urbanebikes.com/collections/speed-pedelec they'll happily sell you want you think you need. Just don't be riding on protected cycle paths, if you don't mind.


So what cube E road bike was this supposed rider using, when glass cranking at 25mph????


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## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

This conversation is ridiculous. Imagine if owners of 30mph mopeds all said "we want our bikes to be able to legally reach 50mph". What do you think the answer would be? Buy a bigger bike and pass the test, maybe?


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## dodgy (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> So what cube E road bike was this supposed rider using, when glass cranking at 25mph????



Mate, just drop it. You wouldn't accept the word of anyone on here regardless. You've spent the entire day dismissing anyone with an opinion different to yours.
I did see a rider on cube e-road bike, he was going faster that he should have been capable of, it was obvious. But, you know, dismiss it like you usually do 
I've been riding road bikes for 40 plus years and know the realistic speed range that people can achieve. Probably most people on here would notice the same.

I'm out of here, enjoy your ebiking, hope it keeps you 'fit'.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> This conversation is ridiculous. Imagine if owners of 30mph mopeds all said "we want our bikes to be able to legally reach 50mph". What do you think the answer would be? Buy a bigger bike and pass the test, maybe?


Ebikes can already be ridden legally by leg power over the 15.6mph limit........so why only allow assist up to that speed???

Roads have speed limits, but they don’t restrict car engines to only allow that speed, so why restrict Ebikes.......the conversation is only ridiculous to people who don’t like/want ebikers using their so called facilities.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Mate, just drop it. You wouldn't accept the word of anyone on here regardless. You've spent the entire day dismissing anyone with an opinion different to yours.
> I did see a rider on cube e-road bike, he was going faster that he should have been capable of, it was obvious. But, you know, dismiss it like you usually do
> I've been riding road bikes for 40 plus years and know the realistic speed range that people can achieve. Probably most people on here would notice the same.
> 
> I'm out of here, enjoy your ebiking, hope it keeps you 'fit'.


It does and has helped me to regain my fitness after a serious knee injury and lose weight too......but I’m guessing that’s not true either.....

I also don’t need to drop it as I’m posting in the E bike section of this forum. If you don’t like it, then go post in the other non e bike parts of the forum.


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## Profpointy (10 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Conversely why 15.6mph?



or 120mph (average !) round the Isle of Man


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## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Conversely why 15.6mph?



I think its something to do with it being 25kph probably some European legislation.

A bit of lite reading.

http://bike-eu.com.s3-eu-central-1....ric-cycles-in-the-european-union-may-2017.pdf


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## Con (10 Jun 2019)

Personally I think 15mph is plenty fast enough. Some of the ones that go faster are downright dangerous. The other week the wife and I were riding along a canal cycle path at about 15mph and one blew past us so close and fast he forced my wife onto the wet grass and made her fall off . He didn't even acknowledge us just carried on at about 25mph he was a complete t@#t.


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## booze and cake (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> What’s sensible to you about current limits???


RE: What’s sensible to you about current limits???

Because the current limits are more akin to the speeds of your average cyclist, so if you are getting motor assistance and expect to avoid having helmets and insurance and share segregated space with us, its entirely reasonable you should have no problem with keeping to that speed. You have said yourself you can push and go faster if you wish, but that its harder to sustain. Welcome to the real world, that's just like real life and how regular bikes work. If the current limits make e-bikers behave in a manner more akin to regular bikers, that's what we should be aiming for if you're sharing our space, makes it more predictable and less intimidating for others.

Yes some cyclists can and do go faster than that, they are usually on racing bikes, the clue is in the name, they are designed for going fast, unlike e-bikes. But despite what they may claim their Strava says, most roadies do not go everywhere averaging 20mph. If the limiter were relaxed to 20 mph, we'd just get lots more e-bikes people riding everywhere on the limiter. Maybe you should get a racer, or a moped or motorbike if its more speed you want.

I have come across some of the de-restricted e-bikes that can do 25 mph and they are a menace. Personally I think its just a matter of time of before someone is killed by someone on one, and then the whole e-bike thing is going to receive a lot more scrutiny that it is now, not less. So enjoy your freedom while it lasts as long term I foresee more restrictions on them, not less.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

CXRAndy said:


> Conversely why 15.6mph?



Because it fits far better in the places and modes of transport an e bike is designed to fit within.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Ebikes can already be ridden legally by leg power over the 15.6mph limit........so why only allow assist up to that speed???


Well, then, if you are able to, pedal faster.
If you are not, be happy with what you've got.
If I could do 15.6mph on the commute I would not use the crap cycle route.
Imo we should have a speed restriction on Ebikes, because, although they are great for the riders that need assistance, frankly I don't see the majority of Ebike riders behaving on the shared paths if they have a chance to go faster with less effort than a non assisted rider.
Yes, there are fast riders on the shared/segregated paths, most are faster than me, some are aggressive, some are polite.
Very few though, ime of 8 years commuting, can keep the 20mph pace.
The ones that can, again ime, prefer to take the road because they have a clearer run.
The increased affordability of Ebikes give the opportunity to go fast to every Joe Blogg that hasn't been on a bike for 30 years, probably has limited bike handling skills, is not used to dogs/kids/pedestrian randomly appearing in front of him.


jowwy said:


> Roads have speed limits, but they don’t restrict car engines to only allow that speed, so why restrict Ebikes.......the conversation is only ridiculous to people who don’t like/want ebikers using their so called facilities.


I don't know in your area, but here we have had to fight hard to get the segregated facilities we have.
The idea is to enable everyone, from your granny to the schoolkids, to do a bike journey in relative safety.
I say relative, because the facilities we have here are by no means perfectly safe.
No, I don't want a 20mph Ebiker on a shared or segregated path.
15mph is plenty to inflict damage, let's keep it that way.


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## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

booze and cake said:


> Yes some cyclists can and do go faster than that, they are usually on racing bikes, the clue is in the name, they are designed for going fast, unlike e-bikes.



https://www.evanscycles.com/electric-bikes/electric-road-bikes_c


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## booze and cake (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> https://www.evanscycles.com/electric-bikes/electric-road-bikes_c



OK sure but they've still got no assistance above 15 mph, so to go faster they have to pedal harder like the rest of us, and they'll be blowing out their 'arris like the rest of us too, so that's fine


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> https://www.evanscycles.com/electric-bikes/electric-road-bikes_c


Yes, that's great for the club run.
15mph cut off for them too, imo, is plenty.
Sorry, but there will come a time for all of us when we can't ride like we used to, that doesn't mean we have to increase Ebikes speeds - imo, of course.


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## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

booze and cake said:


> OK sure but they've still got no assistance above 15 mph, so to go faster they have to pedal harder like the rest of us, and they'll be blowing out their 'arris like the rest of us too, so that's fine



A lot of people can quite easily ride between 15 to 20 mph without blowing out of their bum, wouldn't it be nice if their riding buddy on an ebike who might normally struggle at those speeds got a bit of assistance.


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## booze and cake (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> A lot of people can quite easily ride between 15 to 20 mph without blowing out of their bum, wouldn't it be nice if their riding buddy on an ebike who might normally struggle at those speeds got a bit of assistance.



Or if they were a buddy they should have no problem slowing down a bit so their friend isn't struggling.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> A lot of people can quite easily ride between 15 to 20 mph without blowing out of their bum, wouldn't it be nice if their riding buddy on an ebike who might normally struggle at those speeds got a bit of assistance.


Yes, it would be nice ... but no


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Well, then, if you are able to, pedal faster.
> If you are not, be happy with what you've got.
> If I could do 15.6mph on the commute I would not use the crap cycle route.
> Imo we should have a speed restriction on Ebikes, because, although they are great for the riders that need assistance, frankly I don't see the majority of Ebike riders behaving on the shared paths if they have a chance to go faster with less effort than a non assisted rider.
> ...


Yet again a post with huge assumptions attached to it........and the usual reply of its ok, but not in my back yard. Maybe we should restrict normal bikes to 15mph as well then, to ensure everyone is safe, because normal bikes can reach higher speeds and do on cycle paths. I’m not going to make the assumption as others have above and state other riders speeds with my naked eye. But let’s just say, I’ve seen regular riders cause more agro on shared use, segregated and roads than ebikers, but I won’t tar every rider with the same brush.

But again people on here are saying the average rider speed is already 15mph plus so Ebikes should be limited to that too......but and here’s the assumption people make, which clouds their judgement. For the average joe to ride at an average speed of 15mph, he/she would have to ride a fair significant part of their journey at above speeds of around 20mph, making up the the times of stopping, riding uphill, traffic lights, slow cars, traffic jams etc etc etc......so limiting an ebike assist to 15.6mph max is therefore causing Ebikes to average slower than normal riders as the heavier bike, motor drag, bigger tyres etc etc decreases their ability to ride above the cut off limits. Therefore ebike riders are averaging slower than normal riders. Hence within this thread E road bikers are also asking for the limit to be increased so they can keep up on club rides that go higher than the cutoff point and make it difficult for them to keep up, hence they no longer partake in club rides. If the increase to 20mph means they can then average the same 15.6mph as normal riders of the same distance would be classed as levelling the playing field as they say.....but hey let’s not that get in the way of the NIMBYS on this thread who think that a max assist limit of 15.6mph is the same as the average speed limit of normal bike riders......as it’s not


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

booze and cake said:


> Or if they were a buddy they could have no problem at slowing down a bit so their friend isn't struggling.


Yes it would and it should be that way........


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## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

booze and cake said:


> Or if they were a buddy they could have no problem at slowing down a bit so their friend isn't struggling.



But isn't that one of the reasons why the limit is being asked to be raised so ebikes can keep up with buddies who ride quicker, most group rides I have been on average over 16mph and above, and on some rides the proposed 20mph wouldn't be enough.


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

I used to be of the opinion that ebikes needed a higher cut off speed, and was tempted to either mod my own ebikes to get more speed or just buy a non road legal kit. In fact i often aired these views on various forums.
I've since changed my mind completely about this. I've come to appreciate the fact we can legally use cycle/canal paths and go anywhere bicycles can go..... and i'm seeing a fair few modded and non road legal ebikes at these places, some with dinner plate sized hub motors.
It make me fear legislation that could impact law abiding ebike riders and remove some of the privileges and freedoms that we currently enjoy. Especially for disabled and health deteriorated ebike riders.
In this health & safety obsessed society we live in, more motor speed will be deemed more dangerous..... and that usually gets legislation and restrictions added to it by the authorities.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Maybe we should restrict normal bikes to 15mph as well then, to ensure everyone is safe, because normal bikes can reach higher speeds and do on cycle paths.


Well, we can only self regulate on cycle paths.
The "assistance" to this self regulation is, of course, one's fitness/ability.
A motor removes this restriction, enabling more wannabe racers to cause damage.



jowwy said:


> I’m not going to make the assumption as others have above and state other riders speeds with my naked eye.


I have a Garmin, and I'm not afraid to use it!


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## booze and cake (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> But isn't that one of the reasons why the limit is being asked to be raised so ebikes can keep up with buddies who ride quicker, most group rides I have been on average over 16mph and above, and on some rides the proposed 20mph wouldn't be enough.



But if 20 mph is still too slow, are you now asking for 25mph? What next 30mph?


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## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

Compared to cycling as a whole, how long have e-assist bikes been around. And how quick have regulations governing their maximum assisted speed been changed. If 20mph was given as the new limit, how long before 25mph was being asked for?*

How fast could one go. 100mph plus, depending on the rider. I've an electric motorcycle near me. Perfectly legal, as is the rider. He stays within the speed limits more than most other vehicle users. But meeting it on a quiet road is another thing. He'll slow down and talk to you, if it's safe. But having him alongside, very little noise, takes a bit of getting used to.

He chooses the speed, not the machine.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> and on some rides the proposed 20mph wouldn't be enough.


Well, then, you cannae participate, same as me


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## Hacienda71 (10 Jun 2019)

Sorry to be pedant, but "glass cranking" doesn't mean freewheeling. It means pretending to pedal hard without putting much real effort through the cranks. You do it when you don't want or can't contribute but don't want to p off your fellow riders.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Well, we can only self regulate on cycle paths.
> The "assistance" to this self regulation is, of course, one's fitness/ability.
> A motor removes this restriction, enabling more wannabe racers to cause damage.
> 
> ...


The assistance removes no such restriction....people who want to, can still self regulate in the way we do now, no matter what their ability or fitness levels. 

Your just of the opinion that nobody can have/do more than you can, I can only average 15mph so you should only be allowed to as well. But life doesn’t work that way and there is always some one that will try and break the law and use illegal means to do so.....that is the uncontrollable element.

What you have now is companies supplying equipment that allows ebikers to break the law as the arbitrary figure of 15.6mph isn’t fast enough for club rides and road ride commutes, so they find illegal means of doing so. That causes even more danger than just a simple legal increase of the max speed assist limit. But you don’t see it that way, as your only thinking about your segregated/shared cycle path....which is a very narrow minded view of the bigger picture at play


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Hacienda71 said:


> Sorry to be pedant, but "glass cranking" doesn't mean freewheeling. It means pretending to pedal hard without putting much real effort through the cranks. You do it when you don't want or can't contribute but don't want to p off your fellow riders.


In this instance glass cranking as stated in a previous post is invariably limiting the assist level of the ebike and therefore would be detrimental to the ability of the bike reaching 25mph......as the poster assumed the bike was illegally de-restricted allowing next to no input from the rider. Crank based motors with cadence sensors require input from the rider and the lower the cadence/input the lower the level of assist ( again that’s on the new style of Ebikes now available) some may have older tech Ebikes without cadence sensors and with throttle control

I don’t believe the cube E road bike is of the old style as e road bikes are new to the market


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## stoatsngroats (10 Jun 2019)

I have used an ebike, and Mrs SnG has one, but for us, I wouldn’t see any benefit of a higher cutoff speed. If we wanted to ride faster, it’s still possible to do so, so I wouldn’t sign the petition.

I think the issue of wanting the higher cutoff speed would be _likely_ to provide others, whom may not be considerate, even less likely to share they space they ride along, and more likely to compete in (or into) that space, which would potentially increase risk for others. (My consideration - I cannot prove this, but have seen on shared spaces and roads, that effort, speed and space can be seen as a goal to be achieved.)

So, for me it would probably result in an increase in poorly viewed cyclists, with all that comes afterwards, Misunderstanding, anger, frustration, etc.

Just my thoughts, but thanks for sharing the opportunity to sign a petition.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> What you have now is companies supplying equipment that allows ebikers to break the law as the arbitrary figure of 15.6mph isn’t fast enough for club rides and road ride commutes, so they find illegal means of doing so. That causes even more danger than just a simple legal increase of the max speed assist limit.


In that case, we should have a petition to make the supply of such equipment illegal, not a petition to increase the max speed assist limit.


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## Hacienda71 (10 Jun 2019)

Sorry but that is not what you said. I am just pointing out the correct meaning of the phrase in relation to "normal bikers". 


jowwy said:


> It’s what normal bikers call free wheeling as they have no requirement to pedal as they already going as fast as they require......most non ebikers assume that you don’t require any rider input to propel an ebike, they just go by the power of magic. They forget they are pedal assist and therefore have sensors within them to up or decrease assistance if no input via the cranks is sensed





jowwy said:


> In this instance glass cranking as stated in a previous post is invariably limiting the assist level of the ebike and therefore would be detrimental to the ability of the bike reaching 25mph......as the poster assumed the bike was illegally de-restricted allowing next to no input from the rider. Crank based motors with cadence sensors require input from the rider and the lower the cadence/input the lower the level of assist ( again that’s on the new style of Ebikes now available) some may have older tech Ebikes without cadence sensors and with throttle control
> 
> I don’t believe the cube E road bike is of the old style as e road bikes are new to the market


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## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

Hacienda71 said:


> Sorry but that is not what you said. I am just pointing out the correct meaning of the phrase in relation to "normal bikers".


I'm as normal as the next cyclist.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Hacienda71 said:


> Sorry but that is not what you said. I am just pointing out the correct meaning of the phrase in relation to "normal bikers".


I do stand corrected on what you class as the meaning of glass cranking.....


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## Rusty Nails (10 Jun 2019)

As e-bikes get faster and more popular I believe it is inevitable they will become subject to more regulation, including compulsory insurance and some form of licence fee, and inevitably as they get faster they will become more popular. It is too good an opportunity for revenue for any government.

Be careful what you wish for.


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## Venod (10 Jun 2019)

booze and cake said:


> But if 20 mph is still too slow, are you now asking for 25mph? What next 30mph?



I think 20mph is reasonable a lot of group rides are between 16 to 20, I wouldn't advocate anything above that, we don't want ebikes on the chain gang, our local one sometimes averages 24 to 25mph for 40mile, not with me on it I hasten to add.


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

I've noticed there does seem to be a culture of wanting ebikes to be motorbikes, but not wanting none of the legislation of motorbikes. Its almost like people want a motorcycle, but dont want the hassle of licence & running costs of one. So ebikes are seen as fair game now. I've honestly lost count of the amount of people that have asked 'Can you make em faster ?' Often followed by 'Does it charge as you're riding along ?' So they expect perpetual motion into the bargain.
On various forums i use, whenever ebikes come up, the thread always gets around to making them faster.
If ever i meet younger people on ebikes, who are often so young & fit they wouldn't need an ebike anyway, they are perfectly open about the fact their ebike is illegal... 'Dongled innit bruv'
Sometimes i feel like the whole ebike scene has been hijacked.


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## booze and cake (10 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> I think 20mph is reasonable a lot of group rides are between 16 to 20, I wouldn't advocate anything above that, we don't want ebikes on the chain gang, our local one sometimes averages 24 to 25mph for 40mile, not with me on it I hasten to add.



But I agree with @stoatsngroats point above, and what @Pat "5mph" has said. I don't see a few people not being able to keep up on a club run as being enough to justify changing the law, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> I've noticed there does seem to be a culture of wanting ebikes to be motorbikes, but not wanting none of the legislation of motorbikes. Its almost like people want a motorcycle, but dont want the hassle of licence & running costs of one. So ebikes are seen as fair game now. I've honestly lost count of the amount of people that have asked 'Can you make em faster ?' Often followed by 'Does it charge as you're riding along ?' So they expect perpetual motion into the bargain.
> On various forums i use, whenever ebikes come up, the thread always gets around to making them faster.
> If ever i meet younger people on ebikes, who are often so young & fit they wouldn't need an ebike anyway, they are perfectly open about the fact their ebike is illegal... 'Dongled innit bruv'
> Sometimes i feel like the whole ebike scene has been hijacked.


Again tarring all ebike users with the same brush.........


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Again tarring all ebike users with the same brush.........



Not really, otherwise i'd be tarring myself as well.
But we know many non road legal ebikes are out there.


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## Hacienda71 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I do stand corrected on what you class as the meaning of glass cranking.....


It is not what I class as the meaning, it is the meaning...................


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> Not really, otherwise i'd be tarring myself as well.
> But we know many non road legal ebikes are out there.


We do, but there are also many many legal ones.......


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## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

About this petition..... Does anyone on here think there's any possibility of it giving ebikes a higher motor cut off speed ?
I highly doubt there's any chance of it. Its been an interesting topic though.


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## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> About this petition..... Does anyone on here think there's any possibility of it giving ebikes a higher motor cut off speed ?
> I highly doubt there's any chance of it. Its been an interesting topic though.


It may not.....but I have tweeted the minister for transport about the increase in e bike cut offs inline with his increase in c2w allowance for e bikes....

With current rhetoric around climate change, pollution and congestion. I can only see a plus side for the use of e bikes to help with these issues.


----------



## NickWi (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Again tarring all ebike users with the same brush.........



I've got to agree with Smudge on this on. There are a lot of people out there who want to ride what is in effect an electric motorbike. All the speed, none of the responsibility. You have to draw a line at some point between a power assited bicycle and a powered bicycle. IMHO the current laws reflect this balance nicely and I therefore won't be signing the partition. I also think that ebike are sitting nice and quietly under the radar. Increase the speed and it's just another bit of ammunition for the tax, insurance etc brigade (and if you read the press last week there was a somewhat biased survey calling for just that).


----------



## Phaeton (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Post #138 answers the question quite clearly


No it doesn't!

Here it is again to make it easy for you, a simple yes/no will suffice



> Correct, but to ride one you have to pass a test, have to wear a helmet to an approved & recognised standard, have to have insurance, carry registration plates, have an annual test, pay VED, only use recognised highways, are you prepared to do all that with your e-Bike?


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

NickWi said:


> I've got to agree with Smudge on this on. There are a lot of people out there who want to ride what is in effect an electric motorbike. All the speed, none of the responsibility. You have to draw a line at some point between a power assited bicycle and a powered bicycle. IMHO the current laws reflect this balance nicely and I therefore won't be signing the partition. I also think that ebike are sitting nice and quietly under the radar. Increase the speed and it's just another bit of ammunition for the tax, insurance etc brigade (and if you read the press last week there was a somewhat biased survey calling for just that).


E bikes are not under the radar at all.....c2w increase as just been allowed for the purchase of e bikes. Did anyone see that change coming from government???


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> No it doesn't!
> 
> Here it is again to make it easy for you, a simple yes/no will suffice


An I stated if that’s what becomes law then I wouldn’t be against it, but I have no doubt that any of that would actually happen


----------



## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> It may not.....but I have tweeted the minister for transport about the increase in e bike cut offs inline with his increase in c2w allowance for e bikes....
> 
> With current rhetoric around climate change, pollution and congestion. I can only see a plus side for the use of e bikes to help with these issues.



I suspect the government would mainly be interested in electric cars, trucks and motorcycles to a lesser extent. These vehicles will fulfill their environmental aims, but will become the ones they still get revenue from.
Ebikes are just bicycles with a bit of assistance, if they become more than that, the government will likely start taking more interest in them.


----------



## MontyVeda (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> read the petition......it will answer your question


rather than clicking on random non-descriptive links, I'd prefer something I can read in the OP.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> I suspect the government would mainly be interested in electric cars, trucks and motorcycles to a lesser extent. These vehicles will fulfill their environmental aims, but will become the ones they still get revenue from.
> Ebikes are just bicycles with a bit of assistance, if they become more than that, the government will likely start taking more interest in them.


The rise in c2w scheme allowance for the purchase of ebikes means they are keeping an eye on it more than people think


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## MontyVeda (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> its a UK government petiton....not a random website for god sake
> 
> change the title just for you


it was a lazy post... please try harder to inform us next time.

Thanks in advance, and don't get shirty


----------



## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> The rise in c2w scheme allowance for the purchase of ebikes means they are keeping an eye on it more than people think


But what's their reason for the sudden interest, on their part.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> But what's their reason for the sudden interest, on their part.


Are we aware that it’s just a sudden interest.....e bikes have been around for some time and have all ready seen two changes to the laws surrounding them. I think they seeing a huge use in them by the commuter fraternity and see it as a way of helping ease congestion, pollution etc etc by making them available to purchase on said c2w scheme if people wish to do so. With increase in battery, engine and software technology the range of ebikes is increasing and more people are seeing them as a great way to commute to and from work over longer distances and a way of getting exercise rather than being stuck in a car........


----------



## stoatsngroats (10 Jun 2019)

It could be the same as the government led diesel support, which dwindled spectacularly though.


----------



## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Are we aware that it’s just a sudden interest.....e bikes have been around for some time and have all ready seen two changes to the laws surrounding them. I think they seeing a huge use in them by the commuter fraternity and see it as a way of helping ease congestion, pollution etc etc by making them available to purchase on said c2w scheme if people wish to do so. With increase in battery, engine and software technology the range of ebikes is increasing and more people are seeing them as a great way to commute to and from work over longer distances and a way of getting exercise rather than being stuck in a car........


One major change, but only to e-cycles. Maybe the first steps towards further, restrictive, regulation.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> One major change, but only to e-cycles. Maybe the first steps towards further, restrictive, regulation.


I doubt any further restrictive legislation will take place. It’s a fast growing market and can only see benefits and not downsides to its continued growth. But only time will tell on where it goes.....

But until then I will continue to enjoy my two within the legal limits of the law.......


----------



## Smudge (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> The rise in c2w scheme allowance for the purchase of ebikes means they are keeping an eye on it more than people think



Ebikes are good in their eyes. For everyone that rides one and doesn't use a car, its a win against congestion, a win for health and for air quality (likely less nhs costs). But they know it will be only an infinitesimally small amount of people that will use ebikes compared to car drivers. So its no big deal for them to up the c2w scheme allowance.
It is welcome though, anything that helps people ebike ride to work, that wouldn't normally cycle, is good afaic.


----------



## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

How far did a possible £200 million investment, by two dockless e-bike schemes influence the changes.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> How far did a possible £200 million investment, by two dockless e-bike schemes influence the changes.


Not a clue as I don’t work on government transport policy.....I can only make suggestions based on what I am seeing on a day to day basis


----------



## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Not a clue as I don’t work on government transport policy.....I can only make suggestions based on what I am seeing on a day to day basis


American and Chinese companies were behind the europe wide investment.

Why change the(your) product, when it may be easier and cheaper to change the legislation.


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> Why change the(your) product, when it may be easier and cheaper to change the legislation.



Can you please explain??


----------



## raleighnut (10 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> American and Chinese companies were behind the europe wide investment.
> 
> Why change the(your) product, when it may be easier and cheaper to change the legislation.


Changing the speed restriction down is pretty easy, it's just a matter of reprogramming the chip in the controller, the set up on both mine and Maz's bikes has no speed sensor but rather the controller has a maximum RPM device in the 3 phase controller unit that limits the frequency and therefore how quickly the motor can spin.


----------



## Rusty Nails (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Again tarring all ebike users with the same brush.........



You don't have to tar all e-bikes users, just enough.


jowwy said:


> It may not.....but I have tweeted the minister for transport about the increase in e bike cut offs inline with his increase in c2w allowance for e bikes....
> 
> With current rhetoric around climate change, pollution and congestion. I *can only see a plus side for the use of e bikes to help with these issues.*



If it makes more pedestrians or cyclists use e-bikes instead of human-powered bikes how does that help climate change?

If it makes car or motor-bike users use e-bikes instead then that clearly helps the environment, but I believe many of those would want their new transport to run nearer to their old speeds, and as I said earlier, then watch regulation increase.

Isn't the truth that this is just about a want rather than a need as nobody _needs_ more speed other than racers or those seeking excitement.? Nothing intrinsically wrong with that but there will be a cost to it, either in safety or regulation, or possibly both.

If people think that cyclists get a bad press now, you ain't seen nothing yet..


----------



## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Can you please explain??


If you've to change your product to meet a number of speed regulations, including those in your own country, how expensive in time and money.

Would it not make more sense to change the market restrictions, so that they are all the same?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

An exponential back off in power assist would be far better and doesn't require a change in law. No feeling of pulsing on and off. Just a smooth backing off of assist. Sorted.


----------



## PK99 (10 Jun 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Changing the speed restriction down is pretty easy, it's just a matter of reprogramming the chip in the controller, the set up on both mine and Maz's bikes has no speed sensor but rather the controller has a maximum RPM device in the 3 phase controller unit that limits the frequency and therefore how quickly the motor can spin.



And changing it back up again just needs a laptop and a bit of tech savvy...


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> If you've to change your product to meet a number of speed regulations, including those in your own country, how expensive in time and money.
> 
> Would it not make more sense to change the market restrictions, so that they are all the same?


Yes and no.....the Specialized Levo and most ebikes just need a software change via a pc, according to what country your in the software can be changed to match that ebike law.....it’s already built in.

So if you update software in the EU you only get the eu allowance settings, in the US you would be allowed to update the US allowable settings....it’s that simple. So a legislation change to US speed limits would just require a flash of the ebikes software to allow those limits

If that’s what your getting at


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> An exponential back off in power assist would be far better and doesn't require a change in law. No feeling of pulsing on and off. Just a smooth backing off of assist. Sorted.


They already do that but you still have the feel of motor pulsing as the torque on the motor kicks in and out........it’s not just about power, assist, speed.....there are also other factors at play. Hope that helps yet again


----------



## ozboz (10 Jun 2019)

Signed,


----------



## Rusty Nails (10 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> And that is what is being said by most people on this thread....
> You want the limit raised to 20 mph? *Fine - just stay on the roads*.



And there isn't a cat in hell's chance of this not being widely abused. There is no practicable way of controlling it, certainly not voluntarily, nor without dedicated, costly monitoring.


----------



## Levo-Lon (10 Jun 2019)

Signed


----------



## Levo-Lon (10 Jun 2019)

Just to show how silly this restriction is. 
I de-restricted my Ebike in about 10 mins 27mph.. Easy, ive put it back to normal.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> They already do that but you still have the feel of motor pulsing as the torque on the motor kicks in and out........it’s not just about power, assist, speed.....there are also other factors at play. Hope that helps yet again



Well hardly the assist will be so low you'll not notice it. You'll really shouldn't be promoting strapping exponentially more powerful motors to bikes and not calling them motor bikes. Hope that helps yet again.


----------



## classic33 (10 Jun 2019)

Q Group licence anyone?


----------



## jowwy (10 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Well hardly the assist will be so low you'll not notice it. You'll really shouldn't be promoting strapping exponentially more powerful motors to bikes and not calling them motor bikes. Hope that helps yet again.


Who said anything about more powerful motors......its a software change not a motor/power change


----------



## snorri (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Correct...but some people, especially on this thread can’t see that


There was nothing in the wording of the petition about special consideration for enabling people to keep abreast of their "buddies".


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## Jenkins (10 Jun 2019)

As the assistance speed limit is set by an EU Directive, isn't this discussion a bit pointless?

(At least until October 31st or whenever the next deadline will be?)


----------



## Mr Celine (10 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> They already do that but you still have the feel of motor pulsing as the torque on the motor kicks in and out........



If that happens at 15.6mph why would it not happen at 20mph?


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> .......but when you can ride an ordinary bike at way above 15.5mph and car engines are not limited to speed or torque and motor bikes are not limited to speed or torque, then why should ebikes



If you want ebikes to be allowed to travel at motor vehicle speeds, that's fine by me - so long as they have registration plates, periodic safety examination, compulsory insurance & rider licencing and are forced to ride in the road and NOT on cycle tracks or shared use paths. There's enough irresponsible idiots tearing around on two wheels as it is, without adding to it.


----------



## neil earley (11 Jun 2019)

My view is the restriction on 250w which is under powered ,still restrict to 15mph but need more oomph getting up them steep hills ps there's a saying 
Don't knock it in till you try it ! 
E assist is good for us old folk on here


----------



## Levo-Lon (11 Jun 2019)

Jenkins said:


> As the assistance speed limit is set by an EU Directive, isn't this discussion a bit pointless?
> 
> (At least until October 31st or whenever the next deadline will be?)




Bikes will have a Flux Capacitor by then and run on trash


----------



## glasgowcyclist (11 Jun 2019)

Mr Celine said:


> If that happens at 15.6mph why would it not happen at 20mph?



It would but there's a simple fix for that: a petition to raise the cut off to 24.4mph.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> It would but there's a simple fix for that: a petition to raise the cut off to 24.4mph.


I would remove it altogether and just govern motor and wattage which is also within the legislation. Then they can be ridden at any speeds.......its only the assist speed thats governed. Above that if you have the leg power to keep a 24kg ish mtb going then all.power to the people.

More people using them to commute, less congestion on the roads, less pollution from petrol/diesel.......all win win


----------



## Rocky (11 Jun 2019)

I won’t be signing. I’m happy with the law as it is.


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## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> If you want ebikes to be allowed to travel at motor vehicle speeds, that's fine by me - so long as they have registration plates, periodic safety examination, compulsory insurance & rider licencing and are forced to ride in the road and NOT on cycle tracks or shared use paths. There's enough irresponsible idiots tearing around on two wheels as it is, without adding to it.



A lot of normal bike riders travel up to 20 mph, I presume you wouldn't be happy for them to have, registration plates, periodic safety examination, compulsory insurance & rider licencing,
(some people think this is a good idea) you still have to pedal ebikes.


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## winjim (11 Jun 2019)

Some of the logic used on this thread doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. As we've seen on several 'top speed' threads, it's perfectly possible for a regular road bike to be ridden at speeds in excess of 100kph. Maybe we should set the ebike cutoff around that value.

And I know that these petitions enable everybody, including those without a lawyerly or political background, to engage with democracy, which is a good thing, but does anybody ever proof read the damn things?


----------



## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

snorri said:


> There was nothing in the wording of the petition about special consideration for enabling people to keep abreast of their "buddies".



There isn't but that would be one of the advantages of raising it to 20 mph, at least one person in this thread has cited that as a reason, see post #20.


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## youngoldbloke (11 Jun 2019)

Reminder - even if the cut-off is set at 20mph you would still have to PEDAL to attain that speed. We are not discussing motor bikes. How about this - a higher limit for eroad bikes, lower limits for ehybrids - to reflect the reality of the way these unassisted bike are ridden - then I could keep up with my buddies on long stretches when the speed drifts up over 15 mph


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

You have to pedal to get assist, but how hard? I’ve ridden e-bikes that felt like the pedal just had to have the weight of your foot on it to get the assist. It’s more like a switch.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> You have to pedal to get assist, but how hard? I’ve ridden e-bikes that felt like the pedal just had to have the weight of your foot on it to get the assist. It’s more like a switch.


Old ebikes with high torque motors maybe.....but not the newer ones with cadence sensors as i have already stated to you further up this thread


----------



## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

Phaeton said:


> To you too, time to put this thread on ignore, the merry go round has already started & it's become pointless


To non ebikers maybe..........lets start a petition to licence, register, test, insure etc etc all bikes that ride on the road if they go above 15.6mph. Lets see how that petition and thread would go


----------



## iandg (11 Jun 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Neither do I.
> Bad enough the non assisted bikes that go at 20mph on segregated cycle facilities!



Sorry 

(I do sow down when approaching pedestrians tho')


----------



## winjim (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I have already answered post #19 on two occassions, you just dont want to see my answer.


With respect, I can't see that you have. You've said that you would obey the law, but that's not quite the same thing, and doesn't make sense when discussing a petition, the purpose of which is to change the law.

I think what @Phaeton is pointing out is that there has to be a compromise somewhere and he is asking you where you would put it. So of the two options, which would you prefer, restricted speed with no licensing requirements, or greater speed with more restrictive licensing?


----------



## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> My personal opinion is that an e-bike that can operate up to 20 mph with assist will inhibit regular cyclists because it is so fast.[/QUOTE
> 
> Sorry to sound repetitive but 20 mph is not fast for a regular cyclist, so do the non assisted cyclists who ride up to 20 mph inhibit slower ones, I think not slow and faster cyclist have always managed together, I fail to see the difference between an assisted and normal cyclist travelling up to 20 mph.


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## HobbesOnTour (11 Jun 2019)

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, but what is a "regular cyclist"?

Until recent illness, I commuted to work 5 days a week winter & summer round trip of 42km, so say 200 commuting kms per week.
At least one weekend in three I would go away camping on the bike, say another 100 km.

At least once a year I'd do a 3 or 4 week tour, fully loaded, typically 2000 km as well as several shorter ones.

Having said all that, my average commuting speed is about 21/22 kph. Not mph, kph. 

Am I a regular cyclist or not?


----------



## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I'm really not trying to be obtuse, but what is a "regular cyclist"?
> 
> Until recent illness, I commuted to work 5 days a week winter & summer round trip of 42km, so say 200 commuting kms per week.
> At least one weekend in three I would go away camping on the bike, say another 100 km.
> ...


That something only you can answer......its for a different topic/thread

This post is about increasing the legal limit off assist on ebikes, which may or may not help and also may reduce the illagallity of de-restricting bikes and breaking the law while doing so...

It seems theres both support and nom support of this issue. Most non support is from the anti ebike fraternity.....lets hope they dont require to use one some day.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> It seems that disagreeing with you means that im in the wrong and only the anti ebike fraternity counts.....you dont want otherd opionions because in your mind they shouldnt be allowed at any speed therefore any petiotion or debate in yout mind is futile...
> 
> You want me to explain my position but all i see from others is you can ride them but not on my secluded, segrageted nice piece of countryside. Which isnt very inclusive to say the least.
> 
> ...



Jeez......

First of all, stop deleting your posts! It kind of interferes with the flow.....

I have specifically asked you to explain your point of view. You don't want to? Fine. But seriously, telling me what I think is overstepping the mark. 

For the record...


jowwy said:


> .you dont want otherd opionions because in your mind they shouldnt be allowed at any speed therefore any petiotion or debate in yout mind is futile...



I have nothing against Ebikes. I have said that several times. But Ebikes assisted up to 20 mph? No.



jowwy said:


> You want me to explain my position but all i see from others is you can ride them but not on my secluded, segrageted nice piece of countryside. Which isnt very inclusive to say the least.



Sure, we might as well be inclusive and allow cars on cycle paths too!


----------



## Smudge (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Old ebikes with high torque motors maybe.....but not the newer ones with cadence sensors as i have already stated to you further up this thread



With cadence sensors you can put in as little or a as much effort as you want, so you can get max motor speed with hardly any effort at all, just by using a low gear.


----------



## derrick (11 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> With cadence sensors you can put in as little or a as much effort as you want, so you can get max motor speed with hardly any effort at all, just by using a low gear.


I will second that, the short ride i had on the Ribble SLe was basically effortles. But would be good when i am old.


----------



## Gary E (11 Jun 2019)

On the plus side - it would be handy having a Derny bike pulling the manual-crankers along on a tough ride


----------



## derrick (11 Jun 2019)

Gary E said:


> On the plus side - it would be handy having a Derny bike pulling the manual-crankers along on a tough ride


My mate does that for me when we hit the hills, although he is back on a non e bike at the moment, He has put the Ribble SLE away for the summer.


----------



## Gary E (11 Jun 2019)

You could send them ahead to get the coffee and cakes in at the next stop!


----------



## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> With cadence sensors you can put in as little or a as much effort as you want, so you can get max motor speed with hardly any effort at all, just by using a low gear.


Not with my ebike.....low cadence and low input, means low assist. If i soft pedallled, glass cranked what ever you want to call it, the bike would hardly move. Unless pointing downhill


----------



## Gary E (11 Jun 2019)

There will always be people (much) faster than me whether powered or not so it's not the speed issue that bothers me. I guess I'm surprised (and happy) that eBike have stayed under the radar and are not controlled like mopeds. I think that if you start to give them extra speed then you'll lose this privilege which would be a shame for those that just want to use an eBike so that they can get out and about?


----------



## derrick (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Not with my ebike.....low cadence and low input, means low assist. If i soft pedallled, glass cranked what ever you want to call it, the bike would hardly move. Unless pointing downhill


You need to get a more efficient one.


----------



## Smudge (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Not with my ebike.....low cadence and low input, means low assist. If i soft pedallled, glass cranked what ever you want to call it, the bike would hardly move. Unless pointing downhill



Both my ebikes are cadence sensor systems and i really dont need much input at all to get to the max motor speed. I can simply stay in a low gear and just turn the pedals without needing to put any pressure on the pedals that i would have to do at higher gears.
Usually i like to get up into higher gears, so at least i feel like i'm putting some work in myself. It also means i'm getting some exercise and getting more range from the battery into the bargain. But with cadence sensors, you really can attain full speed of the motor with hardly any effort if you want. This would work the same if the cut off speed was 20 mph.
Its torque sensor systems where you have to put more energy in to get more power from the motor. These work by how much pressure you are putting on the pedals. So you need to be in a higher gear to get more from the motor.

Cadence sensor, torque sensor..... two different systems.


----------



## PK99 (11 Jun 2019)

[QUOTE="Afnug, post: 5647987, member: 28851"*]A lot of normal bike riders travel up to 20 mph,* I presume you wouldn't be happy for them to have, registration plates, periodic safety examination, compulsory insurance & rider licencing,
(some people think this is a good idea) you still have to pedal ebikes.[/QUOTE]

I think a big difference is that someone who, on flat roads, can keep up 20mph will be an experienced cyclist. Anybody with minimal experience would be able to ride an unrestricted e-bike at that speed.

EDIT

Expanding on that a little. When commuting, or on a sportive if there is some "Dangerous Dick on a Bike", clearly daft, inconsiderate or novice, it is straightforward enough to put the hammer down briefly, gap them and settle back to normal speed. Having Dangerous Dick on an unrestricted e-bike would be a recipe for chaos.


----------



## Pale Rider (11 Jun 2019)

derrick said:


> You need to get a more efficient one.



Strange to relate, he needs to get a less efficient one to produce the 'no load' experience.


----------



## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> With cadence sensors you can put in as little or a as much effort as you want, so you can get max motor speed with hardly any effort at all, just by using a low gear.



Pretty much my experience. It would be interesting to measure power at the crank at the same time as power at the wheel in watts, so see just how much of the total power comes from one's legs...


----------



## PK99 (11 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Jeez......
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, we might as well be inclusive and allow* cars on cycle paths too!*



Motorbikes?


----------



## Pale Rider (11 Jun 2019)

Smudge said:


> Cadence sensor, torque sensor..... two different systems.



That is true, but matters are complicated by the popular Bosch system which has cadence and torque (and speed) sensors working together.

Effort is also altered by the motor controller via eco, tour, sport and turbo settings.

Turbo requires the least effort and it might be tempting to run in that mode all the time.

But it can be jerky, particularly changing gear, and more importantly it flattens the battery quickly.


----------



## Smudge (11 Jun 2019)

Pale Rider said:


> That is true, but matters are complicated by the popular Bosch system which has cadence and torque (and speed) sensors working together.
> 
> Effort is also altered by the motor controller via eco, tour, sport and turbo settings.
> 
> ...



Yes it would have complicated my post if i'd gone into that further. Basically i was just making the point that a cadence system, which is the only one that keeps getting mentioned on this thread, doesn't require a lot of input to attain max speed.


----------



## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

PK99 said:


> [QUOTE="Afnug, post: 5647987, member: 28851"*]A lot of normal bike riders travel up to 20 mph,* I presume you wouldn't be happy for them to have, registration plates, periodic safety examination, compulsory insurance & rider licencing,
> (some people think this is a good idea) you still have to pedal ebikes.



I think a big difference is that someone who, on flat roads, can keep up 20mph will be an experienced cyclist. Anybody with minimal experience would be able to ride an unrestricted e-bike at that speed.[/QUOTE]
No they wouldnt as they would still need the ability to keep pedalling to attain that cut off speed.....are you really saying only experienced riders can go at 20+ mph.


----------



## rivers (11 Jun 2019)

Ehhh, I'm for the limit to be honest. I have been overtaken by a few de-restricted e-bikes and the people riding them have the bike handling skills of a drunk chimpanzee


----------



## glasgowcyclist (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I would remove it altogether and just govern motor and wattage which is also within the legislation.



I don't want to misunderstand your point here so could you explain that a bit more? It looks like you're saying you would not have an upper speed limit for assistance but your next sentence seems to contradict that when you write


jowwy said:


> Then they can be ridden at any speeds.......its only the assist speed thats governed



I can't reconcile the two statements.


----------



## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> I don't want to misunderstand your point here so could you explain that a bit more? It looks like you're saying you would not have an upper speed limit for assistance but your next sentence seems to contradict that when you write
> 
> I can't reconcile the two statements.


I would totally remove the upper assist speed altogether......and allow the bikes to assist to any speed, but that would still require a huge input from the rider if you governed the motor and torque settings.....therefore if a rider has the ability to get more speed out of the motor by pedalling more, then good on them. But for people who lack that ability would still be fully supported.

That would increase their viability of use for the commuter market, get people out of cars, less congestion, pollution...more people getting excercise and lower the burden on the nhs.

But i cant see that happening.


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## Moderators (11 Jun 2019)

*Mod note: *we'll take some time out on this one to allow things to cool down.


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Jun 2019)

*Mod note:
*
The thread has now been cleaned up. Along the way posts have been edited or deleted - not all deleted posts were problematic, they just made little sense when some of the problematic ones were deleted.

As it stands the thread is no longer totally cohesive. The alternative would be to delete the whole thread and ask members to start all over again - hopefully we would all agree that this would be a worse option than the pruning of the original thread.

Being human it is entirely possible that some posts in the thread may still need to be deleted - if you feel that any post does so please report it and we will take a look and make a decision on it. Please do not quote and answer or comment on it in-thread.

With the thread now being open we would like to ask all members who were uncivil prior to the lock to desist. Thank you in advance.

Any member that is not civil going forward from this point will be removed from the thread.


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## SpokeyDokey (11 Jun 2019)

*Posted on behalf of @Crackle who just missed the lock prior to hitting the post button.
*

Having thought about this, I don't see the a reason why the limit shouldn't be raised. Will it be abused, are there people who would be dangerous on faster bikes, sure I bet there are in the same way lots of other things are abused, we don't legislate to the lowest common denominator though but we do have laws to catch people flouting legislation, so I generally think pointing to such occurrences is moot.

I also think that it's a bit of a pie chart as to who uses e-bikes and I don't think that the demographic is quite the same. Potentially e-bikes as cycle to work initiatives could be getting people out of cars and off the roads, this is a good thing, as is getting people generally out doing some form of exercise , even if it's lighter than what we as 'ordinary' cyclists would do.

Whether it should be 20mph is I suppose, up to debate, 15.6 is rather arbitrary, perhaps some compromise where the limit is a little higher with an ability to boost speed for short intervals of 30 seconds or so for getting out of situations which requires that extra speed, such as pulling away uphill at traffic lights, accelerating at junction, in much the same way we all give it a bit of welly for short periods when we need to but I think that needs to be looked at, not from our perspective but from the perspective of those outside our demographic.

The other question than is the mixing of two almost different forms of transport on mixed use facilities, that's rather more difficult to solve and I see this is a problem in the Netherlands now but of itself I don't think this is a reason not to think about allowing more latitude, like I said, we shouldn't legislate to the lowest common denominator.


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## Mugshot (11 Jun 2019)

SpokeyDokey said:


> *Posted on behalf of @Crackle who just missed the lock prior to hitting the post button.
> *
> 
> Having thought about this, I don't see the a reason why the limit shouldn't be raised. Will it be abused, are there people who would be dangerous on faster bikes, sure I bet there are in the same way lots of other things are abused, we don't legislate to the lowest common denominator though but we do have laws to catch people flouting legislation, so I generally think pointing to such occurrences is moot.
> ...


If nothing esle has come of the clean up it's given someone the chance to like their own post, a rare treat


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## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

PK99 said:


> Anybody with minimal experience would be able to ride an unrestricted e-bike at that speed.



Provided you have the fitness anybody can ride a normal bike at high speed, you don't have to be an experienced cyclist (but I do see your point)



PK99 said:


> Expanding on that a little. When commuting, or on a sportive if there is some "Dangerous Dick on a Bike", clearly daft, inconsiderate or novice, it is straightforward enough to put the hammer down briefly, gap them and settle back to normal speed. Having Dangerous Dick on an unrestricted e-bike would be a recipe for chaos.



You can always drop back and let them go ahead.


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## Rusty Nails (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> That something only you can answer......its for a different topic/thread
> 
> This post is about increasing the legal limit off assist on ebikes, which may or may not help and also may reduce the illagallity of de-restricting bikes and breaking the law while doing so...
> 
> It seems theres both support and nom support of this issue. *Most non support is from the anti ebike fraternity*.....lets hope they dont require to use one some day.



How have you worked this out?

Many of those against the petition said they are e-bikers.

I am against the increase, but I am not against e-bikes. In fact I plan to get one when I am older and need a bit more help.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

I do get that this is and always will be an emotive subject. My E Bike has now allowed to get back into commuting on a regular basis without causing anymore undue damage to my right knee injury. It also allows to get home from work quicker than my old pedal bike as my return from work is 15miles and circa 1200ft if climbing over 9 miles of that distance. Using my ebike means I get home quicker as I don’t need to take stops to ease the knee, but also means I get home quicker, which allows my in-laws to be eliviated from the need to keep a longer eye over my ill and disabled partner....

By commuting more regularly, I have also been able to shed weight that I have gained from unregular riding due to knee issues and also means if I can commute, I don’t then require a weekend ride if my partners illness flairs up over the weekend and then require someone to look after her while I got out for some excercise/fresh air.

I also get that some people see them as a problem on MUPs, but I ride mine within the legal limits. It’s not been hacked, dongled or had the software manipulated for more speed. 

I attached the petition to the post so that like minded individuals like myself who ride ebikes both socially and for commuting may be in the same predicament as me and would like to have the cut off speed increased as they also feel like me that the limit of 15.6mph is an arbitrary figure that doesn’t make sense. 

If the government allows the increase at any point in time, but with that limit increase new laws are agreed. Then I would, as I do now, obey those laws.

There are anti all bikes and not just E bikes in all walks of society...I though a cycle forum maybe a place where this sort of anti bike rhetoric didn’t exist.

I hope this long extensive post helps to clear up my position.


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## Scaleyback (11 Jun 2019)

I ride a 'pedal assisted bike' (Orbea Gain) I also ride a non-assisted road bike. 
I see no reason to increase the E-bike assist limit. I think it is set about right.
If you want to go faster than 15.5(ish)mph then you can by working harder ! This will increase your fitness, that is a good thing.
Truth is I think most E-bikes are purchased by (and designed for) riders who in the main are probably not interested in going faster
than the current assist limit.
The recent spate of lighter, faster E-bikes, Orbea Gain, Ribble SLe, Cannondale Neo etc are probably being purchased by riders
who in the main would like the assist limit raised. However I would think many of these very riders are already more likely to be capable of propelling
their bikes over the assist limit. e.g experienced drop-bar riders riding lighter more aerodynamic bikes.
Just one mans opinion.


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## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

This is why the limit needs raising, so you can still go out on club runs etc on a bike like this if your health or age is slowing you down, I know not everybody goes out with groups (rare for me nowadays) but some people enjoy it and I can see how this will enable them to keep up without slowing the group.


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## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I ride a 'pedal assisted bike' (Orbea Gain) I also ride a non-assisted road bike.
> I see no reason to increase the E-bike assist limit. I think it is set about right.
> If you want to go faster than 15.5(ish)mph then you can by working harder ! This will increase your fitness, that is a good thing.
> Truth is I think most E-bikes are purchased by (and designed for) riders who in the main are probably not interested in going faster
> ...



See post #20 for a reason to raise the limit.


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

Something not discussed yet, with a higher easily achievable speed, effectively making a new category of ebike, should they not have beefed up brakes?


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## CXRAndy (11 Jun 2019)

Everyone has different requirements for assistance. I ride solo comfortably at 17mph. My wife complains when I ride at her pace 12-13mph. She cant unfortunately ride at that pace now for medical issues. But she want to go out still. Im converting her bike so she can have assisted power upto 19mph, so we can ride together. Outside the arbitrary 15.5/6 mph I wont worry about the setup Im building for her-she is not reckless, just wants to ride with me.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Something not discussed yet, with a higher easily achievable speed, effectively making a new category of ebike, should they not have beefed up brakes?


My disc brakes stop me on a dime......there is very little difference in stopping an 18st+ rider on a 20kg ebike to stopping a 18st+ rider on a 20kg tourer or two 18st+ riders on a tandem in the alps, to which I saw 2 years ago when riding there.


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## Scaleyback (11 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> See post #20 for a reason to raise the limit.



I have read #20 (and all the others) This is one post that supports your view.
While I can totally see the posters view (who I know quite well from this forum) this does not change my opinion.
This situation will affect a small percentage of e-bike riders. i.e drop-bar, e-bike riders, riding in a group with others riding
non-assisted bikes. We have to be realistic and accept that the law cannot cater for (suit) all riders. If you raise the assist level to
20mph to suit club riders riding in mixed groups there are still going to be many on these 'faster' e-bikes who still cannot keep up.
In fact I'm sure most club riders are well capable of averaging over 20mph. So you have fulfilled the wishes of a small minority
of e-bike riders. The downside ? you now have potentially unlimited numbers of irresponsible riders (no age limit) charging about
on 20+Kg of projectile, a menace to themselves and others.


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

If people can't keep up with their ride partners, find new ones. They can still be friends.


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## mcshroom (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> If people can't keep up with their ride partners, find new ones. They can still be friends.


Or the non-ebike rider could just slow down a bit. Surely friendship is worth more than a few Strava PRs?


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## PK99 (11 Jun 2019)

Folks keep referring to the 15.6mph limit as an arbitrary number. Far from it, it is the imperial conversion of 25kph the limit applied in the EU and Australia and looks far from arbitrary.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

PK99 said:


> Folks keep referring to the 15.6mph limit as an arbitrary number. Far from it, it is the imperial conversion of 25kph the limit applied in the EU and Australia and looks far from arbitrary.


But not the figure used in the US or Canada


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I have read #20 (and all the others) This is one post that supports your view.
> While I can totally see the posters view (who I know quite well from this forum) this does not change my opinion.
> This situation will affect a small percentage of e-bike riders. i.e drop-bar, e-bike riders, riding in a group with others riding
> non-assisted bikes. We have to be realistic and accept that the law cannot cater for (suit) all riders. If you raise the assist level to
> ...


Not all E bike riders are a menace to themselves or others......and as there are already irresponsible riders charging around on 10, 15, 20 kg regular mtb/road bikes, why should e bike riders be treated any differently to those


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## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I have read #20 (and all the others) This is one post that supports your view.



if you have read all the thread you will see other post that have similar views, but its not a popularity contest, we will have to agree to disagree.

i don't subscribe to the idea that there will be unlimited numbers of irresponsible riders charging about on ebikes, there will be some, but they will be far outnumbered by irresponsible riders (of all ages) charging about on normal bikes.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

mcshroom said:


> Or the non-ebike rider could just slow down a bit. Surely friendship is worth more than a few Strava PRs?


I don’t chase strava pr’s on my E bike, my rides are posted as ebike rides and therefore don’t show up on strava tables.......


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

There is now 400 signatories on the petition, which far outweighs the 20+ anti speed increase poster on this thread.....


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## mcshroom (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I don’t chase strava pr’s on my E bike, my rides are posted as ebike rides and therefore don’t show up on strava tables.......


Read it back - I was commenting on the non-electrified friend that was going too quickly for their ebike partner.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> If people can't keep up with their ride partners, find new ones. They can still be friends.


But they would like to keep riding with their ride partners or actual partners or is that forbidden???


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> if you have read all the thread you will see other post that have similar views, but its not a popularity contest, we will have to agree to disagree.
> 
> i don't subscribe to the idea that there will be unlimited numbers of irresponsible riders charging about on ebikes, there will be some, but they will be far outnumbered by irresponsible riders (of all ages) charging about on normal bikes.



I've read there are considerable problems in the normally fairly sedate Copenhagen and Amsterdam with ebikers trying to weave themselves into regular cyclist traffic.


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> But they would like to keep riding with their ride partners or actual partners or is that forbidden???


There you go with your combative style, again.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

mcshroom said:


> Read it back - I was commenting on the non-electrified friend that was going too quickly for their ebike partner.


Apologies, my quick scan missed your quote of the original poster


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> There you go with your combative style, again.


When did asking a question become combative.......


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## PK99 (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> There is now 400 signatories on the petition, which far outweighs the 20+ anti speed increase poster on this thread.....



Why not add a poll to this thread and see the actual split here?


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## Rocky (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> There is now 400 signatories on the petition, which far outweighs the 20+ anti speed increase poster on this thread.....


And what do you conclude from that?


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

Surly Bruce said:


> And what do you conclude from that?


There’s currently 400 people want the speed increased


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> There’s currently 400 people want the speed increased



We'd need to know how many saw the petition and decided not to sign it.


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## Rocky (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> There’s currently 400 people want the speed increased


And what’s your analysis of the comparison that you present? Anything significant there?


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

mcshroom said:


> Or the non-ebike rider could just slow down a bit. Surely friendship is worth more than a few Strava PRs?


Over my cycling career, riding partners have come and gone, but we're still mates. 
I don't think the answer to all this is an arms race for the ebiker to add more watts until they can keep up.


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## Spinney (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> When did asking a question become combative.......


When you add something like 'or is that forbidden' to the end.

Hope that helps.

Liking to continue riding with their buddies is fine. There is no entitlement to have the law changed to allow this to happen via ebikes.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

PK99 said:


> Why not add a poll to this thread and see the actual split here?


I personally don’t think it’s required as this is about a petition raised by another person. Not a popularity poll of cycle chat users about ebike speeds.


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## Biff600 (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> We'd need to know how many saw the petition and decided not to sign it.



I didn't !!


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

Biff600 said:


> I didn't !!



Neither did I nor my wife! That's 100% of the people at this residence!


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Over my cycling career, riding partners have come and gone, but we're still mates.
> I don't think the answer to all this is an arms race for the ebiker to add more watts until they can keep up.


But nobody is asking for more watts.....250w motors are allowed by law. It’s the speed to which the motor assists is what is being asked to be risen. Not motor size


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

Spinney said:


> When you add something like 'or is that forbidden' to the end.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> Liking to continue riding with their buddies is fine. There is no entitlement to have the law changed to allow this to happen via ebikes.


Or is that forbidden, is the question. It’s not a combative question.....just a question


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## youngoldbloke (11 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I have read #20 (and all the others) This is one post that supports your view.
> While I can totally see the posters view (who I know quite well from this forum) this does not change my opinion.
> This situation will affect a small percentage of e-bike riders. i.e drop-bar, e-bike riders, riding in a group with others riding
> non-assisted bikes. We have to be realistic and accept that the law cannot cater for (suit) all riders. If you raise the assist level to
> ...


So if I want to squeeze out the extra couple of mph looks like I'll have save up and buy one of the lighter carbon framed versions of my bike. Due to health issues (which I've posted about elsewhere on CC) it's not really possible anymore for me to maintain the extra leg power needed to keep much above the cut-off speed - If I could I wouldn't be riding an ebike anyway. It's not for want of trying - up to 28mph with the training group on a closed circuit, but staying with them is another thing altogether. Its not a big deal - but it would be good to have just a little more assistance above that 15.5 mph cliff edge.
TBH I can't see the petition being anymore successful than previous ones ….


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

Surly Bruce said:


> And what’s your analysis of the comparison that you present? Anything significant there?


None at all


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## Rocky (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> None at all


That was my conclusion too.


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> So if I want to squeeze out the extra couple of mph looks like I'll have save up and buy one of the lighter carbon framed versions of my bike. Due to health issues (which I've posted about elsewhere on CC) it's not really possible anymore for me to maintain the extra leg power needed to keep much above the cut-off speed - If I could I wouldn't be riding an ebike anyway. It's not for want of trying - up to 28mph with the training group on a closed circuit, but staying with them is another thing altogether. Its not a big deal - but it would be good to have just a little more assistance above that 15.5 mph cliff edge.
> TBH I can't see the petition being anymore successful than previous ones ….



Have you thought about a Speed Pedelec? The bike you apparently need is already available, no petitions required.


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## Ananda (11 Jun 2019)

This an interesting topic. I definitely believe that 15mph is too slow.
However I have some comments to make:

1. Some people here say they are not signing since they dont feel they need to go faster. Even if I believed that 15mph is enough for me, I would not impose this opinion of mine on others, in other words, I would say, "yes raise the limit to 20 or even 25mph, but I would still keep it to 15mph for myself because thats the speed I feel comfortable at." 
Do these same people believe that a fit cyclist who rides a normal bike at 25mph is too fast and dangerous?

2. The lawmaker should explain to us, the public, the logic behind the 15mph limit. Where does it come from? What was the scientific process through which this specific number came into being?


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## glasgowcyclist (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I would totally remove the upper assist speed altogether......and allow the bikes to assist to any speed, but that would still require a huge input from the rider if you governed the motor and torque settings.....therefore if a rider has the ability to get more speed out of the motor by pedalling more, then good on them. But for people who lack that ability would still be fully supported.
> 
> That would increase their viability of use for the commuter market, get people out of cars, less congestion, pollution...more people getting excercise and lower the burden on the nhs.
> 
> But i cant see that happening.




Okay, I think I get your meaning now.
Would that be like setting up the motor so that it delivered a preset level of assistance as a factor of the rider's input? I can see the attraction of that but still think you'd need to have either an assistance cut off point or a maximum permitted speed for the vehicle.


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## dodgy (11 Jun 2019)

Starting to think this thread has run its course 

Some parting thoughts:

If your current ebike isn't fast enough, buy a Speed Pedelec and take on the admin of doing so, just keep off our protected (as it is!) infrastructure.

Toodle pip!


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## youngoldbloke (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Have you thought about a Speed Pedelec? The bike you apparently need is already available, no petitions required.


Too heavy, too ugly. I want to continue to ride a bike that gives me as close an experience as possible to the type of bike I've ridden for the past (almost) 60 years - a lightweight road-bike.


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## youngoldbloke (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Starting to think this thread has run its course
> 
> Some parting thoughts:
> 
> ...


I'm happy to avoid most of the unsuitable and inadequate infrastructure anyway - if I do have to use it I ride with due consideration to the conditions and to other users.


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## ozboz (11 Jun 2019)

There is an ebike shop in Twickenham, some of the bikes look very impressive, especially the MTB’s , I am considering a cargo style ebike to get my tools and stuff around , a lot cheaper tha a van and can get around London ok , there is a German make that looks good , but it does depend on me staying in London


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## Scaleyback (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> There is now 400 signatories on the petition, which far outweighs the 20+ anti speed increase poster on this thread.....



Sadly, I guess like most petitions and indeed referendums many (most?) voters are taking 'the personal view' i.e how does this affect me? and you could justly argue 'of course, why wouldn't I' ? Why I have said I don't believe the assist level should be raised that is not based on the personal effect on me. (Who is going to be the 1st to accuse me of claiming the ' moral high ground' ?  ) It makes no difference whatsoever to me. However, I do not believe the long term prospects and growth of e-biking will be enhanced by raising the assist level. I do believe if it was to happen it will eventually result in more draconian legislation that will benefit no one.


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## Venod (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> Over my cycling career, riding partners have come and gone, but we're still mates.
> I don't think the answer to all this is an arms race for the ebiker to add more watts until they can keep up.



I can only quote from my own experience here and give you my thoughts why 15.6 mph is too low, I know you can pedal above this speed but old age and infirmity limit this.

When the Avocet computer appeared in the early eighties,we used it on club runs to keep the speed about 18 mph this was a good group riding speed and IMO still is today, most riders I rode with in those days can still keep these speeds up today, but one or two have dropped to slower groups which is perfectly natural when you cant keep up, but with modern technology we have a solution that would enable them to still ride with their old mates, this requires an higher assisted speed than 15.6 mph above which they would struggle.

In my experience (I know it wont be everyone's) most people ride between 16 to 20 mph average, just above the cut off for ebikes, so a 20 mph cut off makes sense to me.

Lifting the limit won't stop anybody on a normal bike cycling, but it will enhance a lot of peoples enjoyment of ebike's.

Lets embrace the technology and make it work for all cyclists.

I don't own an ebike, but never say never, I am fortunate enough to still be able to average 18 mph on a normal bike.


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## snorri (11 Jun 2019)

dodgy said:


> I've read there are considerable problems in the normally fairly sedate Copenhagen and Amsterdam with ebikers trying to weave themselves into regular cyclist traffic.


It was as a result of experiences during tours in mainland Europe that caused me to be opposed to supporting the petition.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Okay, I think I get your meaning now.
> Would that be like setting up the motor so that it delivered a preset level of assistance as a factor of the rider's input? I can see the attraction of that but still think you'd need to have either an assistance cut off point or a maximum permitted speed for the vehicle.


They do deliver a preset level of assistance now, but that’s the part I would personally limit.....I don’t require 260% assistance, so that’s we’re i would start the limiting process, as speeds over 15.6mph can be done....IF and I do say IF your fit and capable enough to do so


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

It enables a guy I know to take his 'non-cyclist' wife out on 30-40 miles rides having an e-bike. 

The only issue I see, is the speed increase to 20 mph, could put in-experienced cyclists in a different 'ball game' with speed and reaction times. I had enough issues on my fixie that was speed limited, that drivers didn't judge my speed, full lycra and I wasn't able to go as fast had I been geared, but no-one thought I was still going 20-25mph usually. Someone might see a 'dutch' style bike and think it's slow, but it's bombing along at 20 mph.

Even now I'm not fit as I was, I can still move my big trail bike along quicker than 15mph on a flat road, but putting 20 mph into the mix on a 'sit up and beg', will catch many more drivers out. Don't forget, drivers see bikes as slow, hence many of my issues with getting cut up in the past - 'it's a bike, I'll pull out' - I could deal with that being experienced, but an inexperienced cyclist doing 20 mph, where they would normally do 10, could be problematic.


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## winjim (11 Jun 2019)

Hang on, are people suggesting increasing assistance as a function of power input? Surely that's the wrong way round - weaker riders need more help, not less. Isn't that the point of an ebike?


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## Scaleyback (11 Jun 2019)

Of course we have to thank EU Harmonisation (28-01-2016) for our current e-bike legislation. After Brexit (if it ever happens)
I guess people opposed to the current assist level can see a ray of hope ?

*UK ebike law - Updated 28-01-2016*
The UK electric bike industry and the Department for Transport have long recognised these 1983 UK regulations to be antiquated. In practice, UK police enforce the standards set by the EU’s EN15194. The EN15194 regulations stipulate that e-bikes may:


Be fitted with a motor with a power of no more than 250w
Provide a maximum assisted speed (i.e. the speed at which motor assistance is automatically cut off) of no more than 25 kmph (roughly 15.5 mph)
Not be fitted with a full speed throttle that can work ‘independently’ (that is without the pedals ‘moving forward’). Start Up Assist throttles (those that assist up to 6 km/h) are allowed
Be ridden without any minimum age limit


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

winjim said:


> Hang on, are people suggesting increasing assistance as a function of power input? Surely that's the wrong way round - weaker riders need more help, not less. Isn't that the point of an ebike?



It's how the e-MTB's work until the limit, but without massive power needed. They 'assist', but they put in a stack more power than the individual can. I've seen young lads using them. The argument is they get to the top quick, so they can do the down hill, then do a few more runs, before 'mortals' complete maybe 2 runs, compared to their 4. It certainly cuts down climbing time by half or a third (that's with current limits).


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## Scaleyback (11 Jun 2019)

fossyant said:


> It enables a guy I know to take his 'non-cyclist' wife out on 30-40 miles rides having an e-bike.
> 
> The only issue I see, is the speed increase to 20 mph, could put in-experienced cyclists in a different 'ball game' with speed and reaction times. I had enough issues on my fixie that was speed limited, that drivers didn't judge my speed, full lycra and I wasn't able to go as fast had I been geared, but no-one thought I was still going 20-25mph usually. Someone might see a 'dutch' style bike and think it's slow, but it's bombing along at 20 mph.
> 
> Even now I'm not fit as I was, I can still move my big trail bike along quicker than 15mph on a flat road, but putting 20 mph into the mix on a 'sit up and beg', will catch many more drivers out. Don't forget, drivers see bikes as slow, hence many of my issues with getting cut up in the past - 'it's a bike, I'll pull out' - I could deal with that being experienced, but an inexperienced cyclist doing 20 mph, where they would normally do 10, could be problematic.



Oh so true.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

PS - down side is, the motors aren't half as reliable as made out - known quite a few riders that bikes broke (MTB's) - OK condition's aren't great for any bike, but it's a serious amount of cash for the motor to pack in due to 'crap' - which is what MTB's live in.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

winjim said:


> Hang on, are people suggesting increasing assistance as a function of power input? Surely that's the wrong way round - weaker riders need more help, not less. Isn't that the point of an ebike?


Yes....e bikes work by upping the power I rider can input their self by a % increase....my ebike works as fellows

Eco = 50% extra
Tour = 100% extra
Sport = 180% extra
Turbo = 260% extra....

Up to the cut off speed of 15.6mph, above that speed there is no input from the motor and only leg power.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

I'm not so sure how the 'assist' works on the e-MTB's. I fair few of us will know we've put in our own 'leg' watts' pushing in excess of 500w, then an e-biker, flies past at double their speed. There is some power going through when a rider presses on. The steep stuff really shows the difference, not just the long drags.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

260% extra power, flip me, no wonder, 100% more puts the rider in elite level over a club rider...


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

fossyant said:


> 260% extra power, flip me, no wonder, 100% more puts the rider in elite level over a club rider...


Not really......what if your only putting in 100watts, boost puts that at 360watts, but if that puts you over the 15.6mph limit, you get zero extra watts. Boost isn’t required on flat or downhill, so boost is used for uphill to get you up steeper climbs, that you may not be able to get up under normal steam


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

Put that power in someone who isn't experienced - OK, not on the flat, but uphill, off road, with others about. That's why many MTB'ers don't like e-bikers - at least many could say I'm coming through, erm, no. It's called 'respecting everyone' but these bikes do give someone quick access to being very fast, without learning how to interact with other users.

I can fly along on the canal at over 15 mph of my FS, but if I come near any persons, I'll slow to a crawl, mainly because it's how I've learnt we share spaces. Get your usual 'car commuter' on a canal path, without a bit of education, on one of these e-bikes...hmmm, recipe for disaster. 

There might be a need for 'share the space' type education for faster e-bikes.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Not really......what if your only putting in 100watts, boost puts that at 360watts, but if that puts you over the 15.6mph limit, you get zero extra watts. Boost isn’t required on flat or downhill, so boost is used for uphill to get you up steeper climbs, that you may not be able to get up under normal steam



No, so If I'm climbing at 350w up a nasty steep hill on my FS MTB at 5mph breathing out my botty, you get 260% more, so fly past at maybe 12 mph or less that's where issues start if the rider is inexperienced ?


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

fossyant said:


> No, so If I'm climbing at 350w up a nasty steep hill on my FS MTB at 5mph breathing out my botty, you get 260% more, so fly past at maybe 12 mph or less that's where issues start if the rider is inexperienced ?


But what if the rider isn’t inexperienced??? Why are we concentrating on inexperienced riders......my mate ex semi pro bike rider, now rides with me on his emtb and with me on mine, we are both experienced riders, are curtious to other road, path, mup riders and can handle a bike.......not all ebike riders are inexperienced starter riders


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## glasgowcyclist (11 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> Of course we have to thank EU Harmonisation (28-01-2016) for our current e-bike legislation. After Brexit (if it ever happens)
> I guess people opposed to the current assist level can see a ray of hope ?
> 
> *UK ebike law - Updated 28-01-2016*
> ...



The RTA 1988 says they can't be ridden by anyone under 14. Are you saying police are ignoring that in favour of 
EN15194?


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The RTA 1988 says they can't be ridden by anyone under 14. Are you saying police are ignoring that in favour of
> EN15194?


I believe e bikes can’t be ridden by under 14s in the current legislation too........


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## Pat "5mph" (11 Jun 2019)

Ananda said:


> Do these same people believe that a fit cyclist who rides a normal bike at 25mph is too fast and dangerous?


Yes if said cyclist rides at that speed on shared/segregated paths.
With Ebikes getting more affordable, there is a whole new demographic that would consider riding a bike.
Most of those that will consider an Ebike, imo, will naturally gravitate towards cycling facilities because a beginner cyclist is terrified of traffic.
A newbie with the power to go fast, on a shared path is a recipe for disaster imo.
Of course there are experience cyclists getting into Ebiking for health reasons or whatever, but, imo, they will be in the minority once Ebikes really become popular.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> But what if the rider isn’t inexperienced??? Why are we concentrating on inexperienced riders......my mate ex semi pro bike rider, now rides with me on his emtb and with me on mine, we are both experienced riders, are curtious to other road, path, mup riders and can handle a bike.......not all ebike riders are inexperienced starter riders



That's fine. But, we can all go buy the worlds best bike, but we have to pedal it. If you can't, but get this extra power, it's trouble - just like cars - so Insurance....

I'm not negative to e-bikes, they are a fab idea, but if that speed is available to anyone, like cars, insurance needed. A heavy e-bike landing on you, might get insurance claims for PI. I'm a fully insured cyclist , and it's been used both for me, and against me, so it's needed (all low speed actually - less than 15 mph).

I'm still not going to get one, they look great, but I still like suffering and swearing (broken spine 3 years ago). A recent ride involved 6 hours on the MTB a few weeks ago, lots of pushing (e-MTB would have also) and carrying down un-rideable stuff.. got home. I won't be doing the loop again soon as it's massively exposed (needs a good day that I got) and it's not very rideable - an e-mtb would be a liability at the weight.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Pat....your making the assumption that all e bike riders are uncouth, uncourteous human beings and that’s wrong.
> 
> And as others have already stated newbies don’t have the ability to ride at those speeds, cause you still have to be able to pedal the bike up to those speeds, it doesn’t automatically happen at the touch of a button
> 
> Your also looking forward to future ebike use and predicting the worse, which again is wrong



It's like the go fast pedal in a car. Sorry ! You'll find folk using it. I brake and kill my speed around people on my bike, because I have had a lifetime of riding bikes. The e-bike opens it up, so we do need to educate folk to sharing space - that's important.


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## winjim (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Yes....e bikes work by upping the power I rider can input their self by a % increase....my ebike works as fellows
> 
> Eco = 50% extra
> Tour = 100% extra
> ...


That makes more sense with the different modes.


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

fossyant said:


> That's fine. But, we can all go buy the worlds best bike, but we have to pedal it. If you can't, but get this extra power, it's trouble - just like cars - so Insurance....
> 
> I'm not negative to e-bikes, they are a fab idea, but if that speed is available to anyone, like cars, insurance needed. A heavy e-bike landing on you, might get insurance claims for PI. I'm a fully insured cyclist , and it's been used both for me, and against me, so it's needed (all low speed actually - less than 15 mph).
> 
> I'm still not going to get one, they look great, but I still like suffering and swearing (broken spine 3 years ago). A recent ride involved 6 hours on the MTB a few weeks ago, lots of pushing (e-MTB would have also) and carrying down un-rideable stuff.. got home. I won't be doing the loop again soon as it's massively exposed (needs a good day that I got) and it's not very rideable - an e-mtb would be a liability at the weight.


I also have insurance and maybe other emtb riders will have too.....again we making assumptions that these things don’t already happen


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I also have insurance and maybe other emtb riders will have too.....again we making assumptions that these things don’t already happen



Many many cyclists don't though. Hence my worry... open up more speed ..


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## jowwy (11 Jun 2019)

winjim said:


> That makes more sense with the different modes.


I agree.....but that’s where I would start the limitations, reduce the assist available but remove the cut off speed. Therefore if you have the ability to ride at higher speeds by pedalling you still can and if you can’t then the power assist available is less which keeps you at lower speeds 

Hope that makes sense


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## winjim (11 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> I agree.....but that’s where I would start the limitations, reduce the assist available but remove the cut off speed. Therefore if you have the ability to ride at higher speeds by pedalling you still can and if you can’t then the power assist available is less which keeps you at lower speeds
> 
> Hope that makes sense


But wouldn't that mean that weaker riders, the ones who need the assist the most, get the least? Having speed (whatever speed we decide that should be) rather than assist as the cutoff at least levels the playing field a bit. If you reduced the assist then a weak rider might not even make it up to 15mph at all, which kind of defeats the point of having an ebike.


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## fossyant (11 Jun 2019)

Having seen an e-bike 'dutchie' accelerate, they are quick. I'd have been putting in some power on my fixie (I was in the car and it shot off)...

I don't mind, but I think the limit might be needed on 'road bikes' or 'fast hybrids' but it would need to be bike type specific...


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## winjim (11 Jun 2019)

fossyant said:


> Having seen an e-bike 'dutchie' accelerate, they are quick. I'd have been putting in some power on my fixie (I was in the car and it shot off)...
> 
> I don't mind, but I think the limit might be needed on 'road bikes' or 'fast hybrids' but it would need to be bike type specific...


Trouble is it starts to get complicated. Cutoff at a certain speed is at least simple.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> A lot of normal bike riders travel up to 20 mph, I presume you wouldn't be happy for them to have, registration plates, periodic safety examination, compulsory insurance & rider licencing,
> (some people think this is a good idea) you still have to pedal ebikes.



Fast roadies who are trophy chasing on Strava shouldn't be using shared use paths or cycle tracks either, IMHO. These facilities are NOT provided as race tracks, they are there to enable people to get from A to B. People who are just out and about either on two legs or two wheels do not want to be constantly getting buzzed and carved up by weekend warriors who are often effectively having a race against the clock. If you just want to ride everywhere as fact as possible, go and do it on a proper cycle race track, and stop inflicting this anti-social behaviour on everyone else. It's not really surprising why a lot of other road users of all types don't have a very high opinion of cyclists is it, when some of them think they've got a God-given right to tear around flat out irrespective of the presence of other people on the highway?.


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## T4tomo (12 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> I can only quote from my own experience here and give you my thoughts why 15.6 mph is too low, I know you can pedal above this speed but old age and infirmity limit this.
> 
> When the Avocet computer appeared in the early eighties,we used it on club runs to keep the speed about 18 mph this was a good group riding speed and IMO still is today, most riders I rode with in those days can still keep these speeds up today, but one or two have dropped to slower groups which is perfectly natural when you cant keep up, but with modern technology we have a solution that would enable them to still ride with their old mates, this requires an higher assisted speed than 15.6 mph above which they would struggle.
> 
> ...


Yeah But, old club riders wanting to keep up with their mates is a very very small slice of the target ebike market.
Non cyclists on an ebike have potential to be dangerous at speed.


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## Scaleyback (12 Jun 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The RTA 1988 says they can't be ridden by anyone under 14. Are you saying police are ignoring that in favour of
> EN15194?



Well, I just quoted the article ! After a little research It seems that the UK limit of 14 was retained, the only exception to the EU Harmonisation.


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## Venod (12 Jun 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> when some of them think they've got a God-given right to tear around flat out irrespective of the presence of other people on the highway?.



I totally agree with you, people should ride responsibly, and consider other people, but 16 to 20 mph in the right places is not being an irresponsible Strava chasing hooligan, just as any cyclist, a rider on an ebike needs to consider others and just like the majority of non assisted cyclists I am sure they will, an ebike doesn't make a hooligan, a person makes a hooligan.


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> Well, I just quoted the article ! After a little research It seems that the UK limit of 14 was retained, the only exception to the EU Harmonisation.



Fair enough, I thought you were speaking from experience.


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## Venod (12 Jun 2019)

T4tomo said:


> Yeah But, old club riders wanting to keep up with their mates is a very very small slice of the target ebike market.
> Non cyclists on an ebike have potential to be dangerous at speed.



But they won't be non cyclists if they have an ebike and like any new cyclist they have to learn to ride safely and responsibly, as I have pointed out previously any new rider (if they have the fitness) can ride at high speeds.

I am not supporting raising the limit just so old roadies can keep up with their mates, that was just an example.

I am supporting the limit because 16 to 20 is a more realistic speed for a cyclists. IMO


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## HobbesOnTour (12 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> , as I have pointed out previously any new rider (if they have the fitness) can ride at high speeds.


And how do they get that fitness? By riding the bike...... and learning a few skills and acquiring experience.

I have a big problem with the 20 mph limit for the simple reason that I am a reasonably adept & fit cyclist and would have to struggle to hold that speed.

This is a cycling forum, so I expect most members are serious cyclists for whom 20 mph is not a problem.
But the membership of this forum is a subset of people who ride bikes.

Very, very few people on bikes will be able to maintain 20 mph. Therefore, limiting assistance to 20 mph is going to be too fast for those people.

I'll say it again. If you want the limit higher I have no problem - so long as you are denied access to specific bike infrastructure.


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## Venod (12 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> And how do they get that fitness? By riding the bike



But that's the point there are people who have never ridden a bike who have the fitness to achieve 20 mph easily, the may not keep up that average for long at first but I have seen many newcomers develop rapidly soon riding dangerously at chaingangs speeds with little experience, but with advice learning quickly 
.


HobbesOnTour said:


> I have a big problem with the 20 mph limit for the simple reason that I am a reasonably adept & fit cyclist and would have to struggle to hold that speed.



But many people do ride between 16 to 20 mph quite easily, you don't have to ride to the limit on an ebike, its not about being able to ride at 20 mph for the whole ride, IMO its about being able to cycle at a realistic speed that a lot of cyclist ride at which I see as 16 to 20 mph, at the present cut off of 15.6 mph riders may struggle.

As you are a reasonably "adept and fit cyclist" I presume you will have no problem with a 16/17 average, so why deny an assisted cyclist the opportunity to keep up.
.


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## oldfatfool (12 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> US limit is 20mph and no insurance is required


And in the usa cars dont require an mot... Not everything is a good idea just because the usa say... Though we will soon be part of the usa so maybe the petition will be irrelevant.


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## HobbesOnTour (12 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> As you are a reasonably "adept and fit cyclist" I presume you will have no problem with a 16/17 average, so why deny an assisted cyclist the opportunity to keep up.
> .



16 mph is 25 kph (converting for me - remember I live in NL)
I am slower than 25 kph on my regular commute, yet faster than almost all the bike traffic I meet (including ebikes)
Therefore, in my experience, an E-cyclist, assisted up to 20 mph will be travelling faster than just about every cyclist on my route.
I am not denying anyone the ability to keep up - I am against assisted cyclists travelling significantly faster than most other traffic.

I think you're focusing on the "serious" cyclist. I am coming from the perspective of the everyday person riding a bike.


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> 16 mph is 25 kph (converting for me - remember I live in NL)
> I am slower than 25 kph on my regular commute, yet faster than almost all the bike traffic I meet (including ebikes)
> Therefore, in my experience, an E-cyclist, *assisted up to 20 mph will be travelling faster than just about every cyclist on my route.*
> I am not denying anyone the ability to keep up - I am against assisted cyclists travelling significantly faster than most other traffic.
> ...



'assisted up to 20 mph will be travelling faster than just about every cyclist on my route' - only if they choose to ride at that speed. 
'I am slower than 25 kph on my regular commute' - do you mean you never attain this speed, or are we confusing maximum and average again.
I find it very easy to exceed 16mph at times even with b-gg--ed legs - on a 15kg eroad bike if the conditions are right. I'd just welcome a bit more assistance over that sometimes. But round and round we go …..


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## Venod (12 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> 16 mph is 25 kph (converting for me - remember I live in NL)
> I am slower than 25 kph on my regular commute, yet faster than almost all the bike traffic I meet (including ebikes)
> Therefore, in my experience, an E-cyclist, assisted up to 20 mph will be travelling faster than just about every cyclist on my route.
> I am not denying anyone the ability to keep up - I am against assisted cyclists travelling significantly faster than most other traffic.
> ...



I understand, there are more cyclist in NL and riding at generally slower average speeds than in the UK in more cycle friendly conditions, I am not just thinking about serious cyclists (I am unsure of the definition) but IMO 16 to 20 mph is reasonable, I suspect commuters here regularly exceed those speeds, I think ebikes should be for the whole cycling community not just aimed at commuters.
If it's safe and legal to do so, I would have thought travelling faster than the average traffic is a good thing.


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## HobbesOnTour (12 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> I understand, there are more cyclist in NL and riding at generally slower average speeds than in the UK in more cycle friendly conditions I am not just thinking about serious cyclists (I am unsure of the definition) but IMO 16 to 20 mph is reasonable, I suspect commuters here regularly exceed those speeds, I think ebikes should be for the whole cycling community not just aimed at commuters.



I have no problem with Ebikes. 10 years ago, I would have described them as "cheating" without really thinking about it. However, I have met many different people in different places using Ebikes in ways that I never imagined.
Anything that gets people out and about on a bike is good in my book.
However, based on my experience, mixing powerful E-bikes with regular bikes is a recipe for disaster.

Given that 16-20 mph as a reasonable speed is the foundation of your argument, something more than "I suspect commuters regularly exceed those speeds" will be needed to convince me.



Afnug said:


> If it's safe and legal to do so, I would have thought travelling faster than the average traffic is a good thing.


You see, I don't. A minority of traffic moving faster than the majority? I don't see how that is safer.
And I'm not sure most regular people on bikes are necessarily thinking about speed - they are more likely to be thinking of safety and comfort.

Again, let me state this. I would have no objection to raising the limit, so long as there are limits to where the Ebike can go. If the Ebike is to be on the road, then push for a limit up to 30 mph.


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## HobbesOnTour (12 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> 'assisted up to 20 mph will be travelling faster than just about every cyclist on my route' - only if they choose to ride at that speed.
> 'I am slower than 25 kph on my regular commute' - do you mean you never attain this speed, or are we confusing maximum and average again.
> I find it very easy to exceed 16mph at times even with b-gg--ed legs - on a 15kg eroad bike if the conditions are right. I'd just welcome a bit more assistance over that sometimes. But round and round we go …..



My experience is that the vast majority of bike traffic travels at less than (an average) of 25 kph (15 mph).

If you want me to agree to raising the limit then you'll need to convince me why it is a good idea to give Ebikers the ability to get assistance to exceed that average speed.

Again, I have no problem with you getting assistance to exceed 16 mph. I just think you should do it in different places to other bikers travelling at a normal speed.


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> My experience is that the vast majority of bike traffic travels at less than (an average) of 25 kph (15 mph).
> 
> If you want me to agree to raising the limit then you'll need to convince me why it is a good idea to give Ebikers the ability to get assistance to exceed that average speed.
> 
> Again, I have no problem with you getting assistance to exceed 16 mph. I just think you should do it in different places to other bikers travelling at a normal speed.



Hard to reply to you as we seem to be talking at cross purposes and about completely different circumstances. I do not commute. There is little or no cycling infrastructure in the area I ride. All of my riding is for fitness or leisure. I am not asking to ride at average speeds of over 16mph - most of my riding averages 10 -12mph. I agree that e-bikers, or any other bikers should not be blasting along busy shared use paths - but that's not the fault of the bike, it's the rider that's the problem. Assisted bike or otherwise,


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Jun 2019)

oldfatfool said:


> And in the usa cars dont require an mot... Not everything is a good idea just because the usa say... Though we will soon be part of the usa so maybe the petition will be irrelevant.




It's also worth pointing out that the 20mph limit in the US isn't in relation to assistance, it's the maximum permitted speed the bike can be propelled *without* pedalling, i.e. on motor power alone, so it's not the best comparison.


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## HobbesOnTour (12 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> Hard to reply to you as we seem to be talking at cross purposes and about completely different circumstances. I do not commute. There is little or no cycling infrastructure in the area I ride. All of my riding is for fitness or leisure. I am not asking to ride at average speeds of over 16mph - most of my riding averages 10 -12mph.



In fairness, it is a remarkably poorly put-together petition with no reasons given, so I think it is important to tease out the arguments on both sides.
I see the fact that we are literally in 2 different places in terms of infrastructure and purpose as a positive. 




youngoldbloke said:


> I agree that e-bikers, or any other bikers should not be blasting along busy shared use paths - but that's not the fault of the bike, it's the rider that's the problem. Assisted bike or otherwise,


Agreed.


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## Scaleyback (12 Jun 2019)

[QUOTE="youngoldbloke, post: 5649030, member: 2740" I agree that e-bikers, or any other bikers should not be blasting along busy shared use paths - but that's not the fault of the bike, it's the rider that's the problem. Assisted bike or otherwise,[/QUOTE]

You make a relevant point Peter but if you put a 'tearaway' in 15 year old Ford Escort he is a threat to others, put the same 'tearaway' in a
Porsche carrera and they become a far greater threat to others. Experience shows me that if the performance is available some drivers will
use it inappropriately. I doubt idiots on bikes are any different.


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

[QUOTE="Scaleyback, post: 5649055, member: 85386"

You make a relevant point Peter but if you put a 'tearaway' in 15 year old Ford Escort he is a threat to others, put the same 'tearaway' in a
Porsche carrera and they become a far greater threat to others. Experience shows me that if the performance is available some drivers will
use it inappropriately. I doubt idiots on bikes are any different.[/QUOTE]

Agreed - but that 'tearaway' poses a much bigger threat in the Escort than on an ebike (which they'll probably 'clock' anyway), and kids are very capable of causing 'wheelie' havoc on unassisted bikes too. It's the driver not the vehicle.


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## rivers (12 Jun 2019)

I have no issue with ebikes. My wife has an ebike and it allows her to commute to work and us to go on longer rides together. When we go out, we cruise along about 12-13 miles an hour. If I want to go on a ride faster than that, I go out with my friends. I do not support raising the speed limiter on e-bikes. As I said earlier in the thread, I've been overtaken by people on de-restricted bikes who have the bike handling skills of a drunk chimpanzee. I can cruise along on a flat at around about 20mph for several miles, and a gradual downhill faster than that. However, I did not attain those speeds immediately upon getting a bike. It took hard work and effort on my part to attain those speeds, and with that hard work and effort came the bike handling skills to ride at those speeds safely. Someone who has never cycled before goes and buys e-bike that can do 20mph right off the bat won't be able to handle the bike safely at that speed. My wife can put her sit up and beg dutch style e-bike into turbo and hit 15.6mph and cut out easily and quickly on a flat, and has been able to do so since the day she got the bike. As a fit cyclist, I've had the assist cut-out going up uphill.


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

rivers said:


> I have no issue with ebikes. My wife has an ebike and it allows her to commute to work and us to go on longer rides together. When we go out, we cruise along about 12-13 miles an hour. If I want to go on a ride faster than that, I go out with my friends. I do not support raising the speed limiter on e-bikes. As I said earlier in the thread, I've been overtaken by people on de-restricted bikes who have the bike handling skills of a drunk chimpanzee. I can cruise along on a flat at around about 20mph for several miles, and a gradual downhill faster than that. However, I did not attain those speeds immediately upon getting a bike. It took hard work and effort on my part to attain those speeds, and with that hard work and effort came the bike handling skills to ride at those speeds safely. *Someone who has never cycled before goes and buys e-bike that can do 20mph right off the bat won't be able to handle the bike safely at that speed. *My wife can put her sit up and beg dutch style e-bike into turbo and hit 15.6mph and cut out easily and quickly on a flat, and has been able to do so since the day she got the bike. As a fit cyclist, I've had the assist cut-out going up uphill.


You could argue that 15mph is too fast.


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## classic33 (12 Jun 2019)

Quick question

As the rule, if changed, would apply to all cycles, who would be willing to be a passenger in an e-assist trike taxi?


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## Scaleyback (12 Jun 2019)

Crikey ! can you imagine the outrage from the ‘lycra set’ and ‘mamils’ if the assist level was raised to 20mph. Many are apoplectic now at the thought of being overtaken on a hill climb.


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## Smudge (12 Jun 2019)

I would probably be in favour of rising the cut off speed to 20mph, if it could be ensured that these bikes would only be used on the road. But i cant see any way that that could be implemented.
I still think 15.5 mph max motor speed, is a good compromise between not too fast and not too slow to mix with unassisted bicycles in all the places they are allowed to use.


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## Rusty Nails (12 Jun 2019)

I was in a bike shop this morning and listening to the owner talking about e-bikes, saying he sells as many of them as non-powered.

He said to the customer that soon the law will be changed to increase the speed restrictions. I didn't hang around to ask him if he knew something or was just using his sales spiel.


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## Smudge (12 Jun 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> I was in a bike shop this morning and listening to the owner talking about e-bikes, saying he sells as many of them as non-powered.
> 
> He said to the customer that soon the law will be changed to increase the speed restrictions. I didn't hang around to ask him if he knew something or was just using his sales spiel.



When i first started getting interested in ebikes about 7 years ago, i went to shop that sold ebikes to check them out. The salesman told me that i should definitely only buy a crank drive and this technology is so good that its making hub drive motors pointless and they'll be obsolete within a couple of years.
Always assume a salesman is bullsheeting..... because they usually are.


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## lazybloke (12 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> You could argue that 15mph is too fast.


Yes, _exactly; _fast for one person is slow to another. Hence the current limit is set somewhere between extremes, and is intended to be acceptable to a majority whilst giving an appropriate nod to safety concerns.

There presumably* would have been a consultation prior to setting the current limit. Anyone who advocates a higher limit would need to argue (to a similar level of detail) why that consultation was wrong. A petition is not an argument.

*a quick search didn't find it.


Reductio ad absurdum: Usain Bolt was once measured running at 27.8mph. So jowwy's logic suggests that mobility scooters should be capable of the same speed instead of the present 4mph.


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## classic33 (12 Jun 2019)

@lazybloke
_"Class 3 vehicles are those with an upper speed limit of 8 mph (12 km/h) and are equipped to be used on the road as well as the pavement."_


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## lazybloke (12 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> @lazybloke
> _"Class 3 vehicles are those with an upper speed limit of 8 mph (12 km/h) and are equipped to be used on the road as well as the pavement."_


If I understand correctly, class 3 mobility scooters require a licence. 
I was talking about unlicensed mobility scooters.


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## ebikeerwidnes (12 Jun 2019)

My concern would be that raising the speed cut off limit would come with restrictions to the use of ebikes - such as no longer being classified the same as 'normal' bikes - hence not using shared cycle paths etc etc.
At the end of the day no-one can tell if my bike has a cut-off of 15 mph or 20 mph so there couldn't really be any legislation saying that I am OK on a cycle path but Fred with his 20mph limit can't use it - hence we would all get banned

personally I think we are lucky to have them classed as normal bikes anyway - given the rabid anti-bike people that inhabit the roads at times - so I don't want anything rocking the boat


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## Low Gear Guy (12 Jun 2019)

Moving from 15 mph to 20 mph would increase the risks to other road and path users. In order to mitigate the risk there could be additional requirements for the rider e.g. helmet, insurance, registration.

Is this not similar to the existing classification for a 30 mph moped?


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## youngoldbloke (12 Jun 2019)

Low Gear Guy said:


> Moving from 15 mph to 20 mph would increase the risks to other road and path users. In order to mitigate the risk there could be additional requirements for the rider e.g. helmet, insurance, registration.
> 
> Is this not similar to the existing classification for a 30 mph moped?


How would this mitigate the risk to other road and path users, when one can ride ebikes at over 20mph anyway?
I've no objection to insurance - everyone should have it. I wear a helmet. But I wouldn't welcome moped style 'numberplates' however.


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## steveindenmark (12 Jun 2019)

Electric bikes are becoming more popular, especially with the elderly. Accidents and fatalities are going up. Making them faster does not sound like a good idea.

I have had an electric bike and they are plenty fast enough as it is.


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## DRHysted (12 Jun 2019)

I’ve only read to page 10, and don’t have the will to read further. 
What I don’t understand is the need to increase the cut off. It’s currently at a perfectly reasonable speed for shared use facilities, yes you could go faster on a unassisted bike but it would take a lot more effort. 
My experience of being overtaken by eBikes is a rider simply twiddling the pedals putting in very little effort, and my opinion is that if speed is obtained easily then it will be used. After all how many of us actually brake when going downhill unless we have to, how many treat it as free speed?


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## classic33 (13 Jun 2019)

DRHysted said:


> I’ve only read to page 10, and don’t have the will to read further.
> What I don’t understand is the need to increase the cut off. It’s currently at a perfectly reasonable speed for shared use facilities, yes you could go faster on a unassisted bike but it would take a lot more effort.
> My experience of being overtaken by eBikes is a rider simply twiddling the pedals putting in very little effort, and my opinion is that if speed is obtained easily then it will be used. After all how many of us actually brake when going downhill unless we have to, how many treat it as free speed?


Free speed, and will often coast as far as possible on it.


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## Venod (13 Jun 2019)

DRHysted said:


> What I don’t understand is the need to increase the cut off. It’s currently at a perfectly reasonable speed for shared use facilities



Others roads are available.


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## Gary E (13 Jun 2019)

Just to throw in another perspective - as others on this thread and elsewhere have said, it's relatively easy to get around (hack? chip? bypass?) the 15.6mph cut off speed and so there are already eBikes out there that can do well in excess of this speed with almost no effort from the rider (I've been scalped more than once at speeds well above 15.6mph by people that look like they're freewheeling).
We're worrying that, should the cut off speed be increased to 20 mph, then irresponsible people would take advantage of this to use the extra speed inappropriately/dangerously. Unfortunately if they're irresponsible enough to do that, they're probably just as likely to 'hack' their bike. Basically eBikes capable of much greater speeds than 15.6 mph are out there now, they're a reality!
So we can either stick with the cut off limit where it is now and try to enforce it (speed cameras, random stop and search, satellite thermal surveillance etc), unlikely given that our law enforcement is stretched to breaking point already. Or we remove the limit altogether but put in place restrictions/requirements to govern the use of eBikes ("MOT" testing, licencing, insurance etc).
Neither option is ideal but at least the second one gives some measure of control and, more importantly, accountability? The 'MOT' need be nothing more than a safety check and could be carried out by your local bike shop (they could certainly do with the new revenue stream). The Licence could be gained after attending (and passing) something akin to the old cycling proficiency scheme (I think this would be beneficial to eBikes and normal bikes alike. Learning a little road-craft can't be a bad thing). And the insurance protects you and anyone you 'come into contact' with.
I should add that I'm not a fan of anything that restricts easy access for everyone to cycling but maybe we've reached a point where it's a necessary evil? Maybe putting measures in place now (and this is certainly not limited to eBikes) will make it safer out there and therefore make riding a more attractive proposition?
I apologise for the length of this post (which grew in the writing) and if it seems a little rambling in nature


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## youngoldbloke (13 Jun 2019)

A number of pertinent points above - just one question - how could a speed camera distinguish between an ebike and an assisted bike, or between an ebike under power over the cut-off, and an ebike being leg powered, or coasting at over 15.5mph - it's not going to happen is it.


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## Venod (13 Jun 2019)

There seems to be a lot of concern that ebikers will abuse the speed limits on cycle paths, I am not sure on the limits, but I believe 15 mph might be about the norm with a recommendation to use the road if exceeding 18 mph.

I have also heard that the 15.6 mph legal cut off is subject to a 10% allowance so 17 mph is legally allowable, but as mentioned by many some, people tweek there ebikes to cut off assistance higher than this, I can't see the police targeting ebikers or non assisted cyclists who are deemed to be riding dangerously on cycle paths anytime soon.

What is needed is education not legislation, ride to the conditions and recommended speeds on cycle paths, problem solved.

Motor vehicles are capable of far greater speeds than the speed limits imposed by the law and the conditions, yes a lot of people disregard this, but the majority of motorists are responsible and drive sensibly, but we have a few who have no regard for speed limits or other people, but we don't restrict the speed of motor vehicles, we try to educate these people to be considerate.

I realise that motorist have to pay VED and have insurance etc, but these don't give them powers to break the law and disrespect other road users.


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## Gary E (13 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> A number of pertinent points above - just one question - how could a speed camera distinguish between an ebike and an assisted bike, or between an ebike under power over the cut-off, and an ebike being leg powered, or coasting at over 15.5mph - it's not going to happen is it.



That was kind of my point (hence the cheeky mention of satellite thermal surveillance). You're right, it's not enforceable (or not easily at least). 

In an ideal world there'd be no need to legislate or control eBikes (or any kind of bike for that matter) but given the anti-social behaviour of the few, the many often have to shoulder the burden. It wasn't my intention to preach (or indeed to sound like I knew what I was talking about), and I apologise if that's the way it comes over, I just think with the ever increasing traffic on our roads and cycle paths, it would be no bad thing to put some sensible controls and measures in place for everyone's benefit.


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## Ming the Merciless (13 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> Who said anything about more powerful motors......its a software change not a motor/power change



As speed goes up you need exponentially more power. If it to provide assistance at faster speeds it needs to provide a lot more power.


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## youngoldbloke (13 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> As speed goes up you need exponentially more power. If it to provide assistance at faster speeds it needs to provide a lot more power.


As far as I know the EBM hardware - motor, power and battery setup in the Orbea Gains sold in the US and with a cut off of 20mph are _exactly_ the same as the European ones with a cut-off of 15.5mph.


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## CXRAndy (13 Jun 2019)

There are physical battery and motor limitations. If users who who want to power along at 25mph, they will find even their extended battery pack gone in matter of 10-20 miles, then weighed down with a dead battery and motor. 

I require a larger battery and a more powerful motor for extended distance and lower the stress on the motor. I want the assistance to be varied and if I and my wife want to travel above 15mph on open road we can.


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## Pale Rider (13 Jun 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> As speed goes up you need exponentially more power. If it to provide assistance at faster speeds it needs to provide a lot more power.



I've ridden a derestricted bike.

It's a rather underwhelming experience, because as you say, much power is needed the faster you go and the otherwise legal 250w motor just doesn't have it.

I reckon riding a derestricted ebike at 20mph requires almost as much effort as riding a lightweight roadie bike at the same speed.

Derestricting the current 250w motors would be something and nothing, although no doubt makers would want to use more powerful motors to take advantage of the raised limit.


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## Venod (13 Jun 2019)

Knowing nothing about the power and battery life of ebikes, I am curious, 
@youngoldbloke is saying the USA Orbea's that have assistance up to 20mph have the same battery and motor as the one's assisted to 15.6 mph.
Do they have the same range before recharge ?
It would seem logical that more power is used above 15.6 thus reducing battery life.


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## youngoldbloke (13 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> Knowing nothing about the power and battery life of ebikes, I am curious,
> @youngoldbloke is saying the USA Orbea's that have assistance up to 20mph have the same battery and motor as the one's assisted to 15.6 mph.
> Do they have the same range before recharge ?
> It would seem logical that more power is used above 15.6 thus reducing battery life.


I imagine that is correct, although range attained by Orbea Gain users varies very considerably, depending on many factors, not least the strength of the rider, and as a result the amount of assistance used. I estimate a range of up to around 60 miles for myself whereas others report they have managed almost twice that with the same or very similar bike.


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## Pale Rider (13 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> Knowing nothing about the power and battery life of ebikes, I am curious,
> @youngoldbloke is saying the USA Orbea's that have assistance up to 20mph have the same battery and motor as the one's assisted to 15.6 mph.
> Do they have the same range before recharge ?
> It would seem logical that more power is used above 15.6 thus reducing battery life.



The wind resistance cubed equation means riding assisted at 20mph uses a great deal more power than doing so at 15mph.

Range is drastically reduced, which is another reason why a derestricted ebike is not quite such an exciting proposition as it first appears.


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## classic33 (13 Jun 2019)

Nothing really new on raising the speed limit. Other than they are wanting 30mph.
https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/change-uk-law-to-allow-30mph-ebikes.30420/


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## NickWi (13 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> I imagine that is correct, although range attained by Orbea Gain users varies very considerably, depending on many factors, not least the strength of the rider, and as a result the amount of assistance used. I estimate a range of up to around 60 miles for myself whereas others report they have managed almost twice that with the same or very similar bike.



I've had as much as 85miles out of my Gain, and as little as 35 on one really bad inclement & windy day. As the man says some people do report a battery range of 100miles plus, but then they throw in that they've averaged 17.5mph or some other impresive number. I know we all buy ebikes for different reasons but if I could ride that far, at that speed, I'd have to question myself as to why I bought an ebike in the first place. The truth is with only 250w of power and a modest sized battery, you're not really going to go very far AND very fast if you're mainly relying on the the battery/motor for most of you umph.


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## Gary E (13 Jun 2019)

You're much better off buying a Tandem and hiring someone to provide pedal power from the back seat then?


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## CXRAndy (13 Jun 2019)

I could easily bump my average speed up quite a notch if I used an ebike. I weigh a fair chunk but get dropped on climbs by lighter riders. If I could use an ebike to keep me in touch with the pack i can ride 20+ on the flats most of the time


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## ebikeerwidnes (13 Jun 2019)

One way in which it can be checked it when someone gets stopped for riding badly or being in an accident - similar to being in a car. If you have a 500W motor with a cutoff at 30mph then you should get done for it if you ride like an idiot and cause a collision - even if you are the one who gets injured
However I have no idea how the average police person could tell without having a specialist examine the bike. 

So - given that the police have better things to do than check every potential ebike (some new ones look normal) and then get then checked for power rating, cutoff speed etc etc - the they would just opt for checking the ones that are involved in an accident - or are being ridden in a stupid manner - e.g. flying along a footpath at 30 weaving around kids coming out of a primary school

i.e. if you speed it up - ride carefully and don't hit anyone and don't annoy any Police. - just like normal life


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## Venod (13 Jun 2019)

NickWi said:


> I know we all buy ebikes for different reasons



i can see all sorts of different reasons for people buying ebikes, but does anybody buy them as N+1 type purchase, ie not needed but bought because they desired one and to have some fun riding one ?


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## keithmac (13 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> i can see all sorts of different reasons for people buying ebikes, but does anybody buy them as N+1 type purchase, ie not needed but bought because they desired one and to have some fun riding one ?



I don't "need" one, but it makes my work commute far more bearable!. 

Been on my feet all day it's nice to have a little help on the way home.

Personally I'm happy at 15mph but do mainly town riding.


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## Scaleyback (13 Jun 2019)

Afnug said: ↑
i can see all sorts of different reasons for people buying ebikes, but does anybody buy them as N+1 type purchase, ie not needed but bought because they desired one and to have some fun riding one ?

I think you have probably just described me 
I owned two other (unassisted) bikes when I purchased my Orbea Gain D30.
1. a Felt carbon road bike and
2. a Boardman 8.9 Adventure (gravel) alloy bike
I have since sold the Boardman.
My Gain D30 is fitted with wide tyres and full mudguards and has taken over from the Boardman as my 'all weather' 'all surface' ride.
The Felt is a fine weather, good surface? bike.

I have said it before (different thread) I didn't 'need' a pedal assisted bike. I'm 72 with no physical impediments (apart from being 72 !)
and at the risk of sounding boastful, relatively speaking I am still a pretty strong rider. I average about 4,500 miles a year in North Yorkshire and
the Yorkshire dales and there is not a lot of flatish rides around here. I can still manage long(ish) rides and a fair bit of climbing on the unassisted
road bike and so I agonised long and hard before purchasing the Orbea Gain. So glad I did, I have never regretted it for a day.
The Gain gives me the freedom to plan rides without taking too much notice of how far, how high I will be riding. I do ride exclusively in lowest
assist level because propelling this 16kg bike around helps keep me fit. 
Oh ! and it's great fun.


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## Venod (13 Jun 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I owned two other (unassisted) bikes when I purchased my Orbea Gain D30.



The Gain Gravel bike would suite my riding perfectly, but I don't really need one, I have 2 CX and two MTB's at the moment, I suppose I could sell an MTB and a CX, give the other MTB to the lad and then tell the wife I am not getting any younger, I think an ebike would be a good idea.


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## MahatmaAndhi (15 Jun 2019)

I think there's still far too many cyclists on pavements and other places where they shouldn't be, to increase the speed limit.
It's more the accidents involving pedestrians that I am bothered about. And in my personal (and very limited) experience the police couldn't give a flying hoot. Besides, I would expect a law to be passed that made helmets mandatory before I would like to see an increase in speed too.


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## Phaeton (15 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> i can see all sorts of different reasons for people buying ebikes, but does anybody buy them as N+1 type purchase, ie not needed but bought because they desired one and to have some fun riding one ?


That is my position, I have a road bike that is in the garage minus it's wheels & has been for the last 3 years, I have a MTB which is what I do all my pleasure riding, it's only for pleasure, trying to keep a little fitter & aide the weight loss, although I think I'm currently heavier than I have been in my life. But I do want an e-bike, I really don't know why but I do, I have this dream of doing the 20+ mile commute off road, but really it will never happen due to time pressures. Currently all my rides are 20-25 miles & the reason is I can only manage 2-2 1/2 hours out of my life for them, my average is 10mph, so that's how far I travel, not sure what extra an e-bike would get me other than further potentially in the same time, but I still want one


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## youngoldbloke (15 Jun 2019)

MahatmaAndhi said:


> I think there's still far too many cyclists on pavements and other places where they shouldn't be, to increase the speed limit.
> It's more the accidents involving pedestrians that I am bothered about. And in my personal (and very limited) experience the police couldn't give a flying hoot. Besides, I would expect a law to be passed that made helmets mandatory before I would like to see an increase in speed too.


Ok - lets have a higher limit for eroad bikes, and for those who can ride bikes properly and can ride responsibly. I've no idea how you'd enforce or administer this. I'd be happy to take a proficiency test, if my old badge isn't still valid . As has been pointed out so many times, if you want to plough into pedestrians on pavements there's no limit on unassisted bikes, or ebikes over 15mph. Much of my ride earlier today was over 15mph - hard work! Selfish maybe but an extra 2 or 3 mph assistance would have been very welcome


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## keithmac (15 Jun 2019)

I've been on motorcycles capable of 200+ mph on the road, but doesn't make me a good rider..


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## Venod (15 Jun 2019)

I thought I had finished with this thread, I have stated my reason why I would like a higher limit but.

There are a lot of people who have said they don't support a higher limit, some ebike riders and some ordinary bike riders, so I assume these people all ride responsibly and have regard for other uses, and if the limit was to be raised their behavior wouldn't change.

So why is it they think if the limit is raised we are going to be overrun with crazy ebikers.


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## Phaeton (15 Jun 2019)

keithmac said:


> I've been on motorcycles capable of 200+ mph on the road, but doesn't make me a good rider..


Being pedantic what were they most top out around 185mph


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## MahatmaAndhi (15 Jun 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> Ok - lets have a higher limit for eroad bikes, and for those who can ride bikes properly and can ride responsibly. I've no idea how you'd enforce or administer this.



You can't. Which is why it's a bad idea to increase the speed limit.



youngoldbloke said:


> As has been pointed out so many times, if you want to plough into pedestrians on pavements there's no limit on unassisted bikes, or ebikes over 15mph. Much of my ride earlier today was over 15mph - hard work!



You're a cycling enthusiast and I would hope that you avoid pavements as a rule. However, I see many people each day on the pavement and a few on e-bikes. All ages - school runners, commuters, school kids. They're not going at 15mph, but they are on the pavement, rarely slow down or even look when coming up to a junction and, more often than not, aren't, wearing a helmet. Increasing the speed limit will put them and whomever they smack in to in to more danger.
As I said before, make helmets mandatory before worrying about increasing the speed of assisted cycling.


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## MahatmaAndhi (15 Jun 2019)

Afnug said:


> There are a lot of people who have said they don't support a higher limit, some ebike riders and some ordinary bike riders, so I assume these people all ride responsibly and have regard for other uses, and if the limit was to be raised their behavior wouldn't change.
> 
> So why is it they think if the limit is raised we are going to be overrun with crazy ebikers.



The members of this forum are a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of bikers on the road. And, likewise, the amount of good, responsible riders is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of morons we have to share the road with.


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## derrick (15 Jun 2019)

Just licence E Bikes, Simple.


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## Heltor Chasca (15 Jun 2019)

MahatmaAndhi said:


> As I said before, make helmets mandatory before worrying about increasing the speed of assisted cycling.



I'm assuming you mean for drivers and pedestrians who suffer the majority of head injuries. And of course there's Australia who as a country has shown us mandatory laws for plastic hats REALLY work 

Wrong thread @Moderators Please feel to delete if I am breaching forum regs.


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## roadrash (15 Jun 2019)

MahatmaAndhi said:


> As I said before, make helmets mandatory before worrying about increasing the speed of assisted cycling.




WHY ??


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## Heltor Chasca (15 Jun 2019)

derrick said:


> Just licence E Bikes, Simple.



Because licensing car drivers works does it?


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## derrick (15 Jun 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Because licensing car drivers works does it?


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## classic33 (15 Jun 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Because licensing car drivers works does it?


Doesn't guarantee the licence plate is on the correct vehicle though.


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## Heltor Chasca (15 Jun 2019)

classic33 said:


> Doesn't guarantee the licence plate is on the correct vehicle though.



You missed the sarcasm in my tone. Must use emojis more.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Jun 2019)

MahatmaAndhi said:


> As I said before, make helmets mandatory before worrying about increasing the speed of assisted cycling.



How well do you think mandatory helmets for everyone will go down?


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Jun 2019)

Mod Note:
please keep views about helmet wearing (or not) in the appropriate thread.
Here.
Thank you.


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## Racing roadkill (16 Jun 2019)

Nah. If you want to go at ‘traditionally accepted’ high road bike speeds, an e bike isn’t the answer. You’ll get folk who are ill equipped to handle those speeds, doing those speeds. The increased speed proposed will just encourage people to by pass the motor scooter, because they don’t have to pay tax and insurance on an e assisted pedal cycle. It’s asking for trouble in my opinion.


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## MrGrumpy (17 Jun 2019)

jowwy said:


> https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/260665



Don't think they need to be any faster, the ones I see seem plenty fast enough. If you want to go faster pedal harder !


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## upandover (19 Jul 2019)

Signed.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Jul 2019)

Just buy a motor bike ?


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## Smudge (19 Jul 2019)

522 sigs


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## Phaeton (19 Jul 2019)

Smudge said:


> 522 sigs


only another 99,478 to go, I wonder how many ebike riders there are in the UK?


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jul 2019)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just buy a motor bike ?


So funny! Such an amusing comment!
Don't worry, it's not going to happen. Meanwhile I'll just have to put up with my disability won't I ?


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## Smudge (19 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> only another 99,478 to go, I wonder how many ebike riders there are in the UK?



Obviously not enough that want more cut off speed.
Never believed this petition would get a high amount of sigs.


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## johnnyb47 (19 Jul 2019)

I think E bikes are a fantastic invention for all the reasons stated in this post but i do think they will become a victim of their own success.. In the beginning most Ebikes where a very expensive and niche purchase, and the buyers of them where "by and large" sensible folk who would respect there expensive purchase, but as of all things E bikes are now cheap enough to be bought by the masses. Like all things that become cheaper its opened up a door for everyone to buy one which means there going to be abused by some. Give it a few years and there will be a big market in companies selling electronics to bypass there governed speed's,Irrespective to whether the law states they should do 15.6 or 20mph
If a young teenage lad wants his bike to travel along at 25 plus to impress his mates he's going to do it and not care about the law. Its was no different back in the my days of riding a 50cc restricted moped. They were so easy to derestrict them. I personally hope this craze doesn't happen to Ebikes because it will only mean one thing. Tougher legislation on them which is not in the true spirit of cycling or Ebikes to us mear mortals but as all things in life i think it will sadly


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## Phaeton (19 Jul 2019)

johnnyb47 said:


> but as of all things E bikes are now cheap enough to be bought by the masses.


Seriously, I think they are still stupidly expensive


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## johnnyb47 (19 Jul 2019)

Yes there are stupidly expensive but it's like everything else. They will get cheaper over time.


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## booze and cake (19 Jul 2019)

Smudge said:


> 522 sigs



At the current rate the signatures are trickling in, this going to fall well short of the 10,000 signatures needed by Dec 2019 for the Govt to even respond to this petition, never mind the 100,000 signatures needed for it to be considered for debate in Parliament.

Despite that I'd bet e-bikes, e-scooters, e-long boards and the like will be debated in Parliament before that. Their use is really growing here in London, we had the e-scooter death near where I live in Battersea recently, and I'm sure we're going to see more in the coming months, and that is going to fast-track it for debate sooner rather than later.

I was driving in central London earlier this week and got undertaken by a guy on an electric long board, he then caught a rear wheel in a manhole cover that was recessed by no more than an inch, and suddenly veered 2-3 feet into the middle of the road, he almost fell off before he managed to correct the steering angle, but he had no time, or balance to pull any kind of effective stopping. I caught the expression of sheer terror in his eyes, and I'm sure he experienced some of his own wee or pooh coming out.

Luckily I was going slow enough and saw him coming so gave him a wide berth, but that could easily have ended very differently. At least the e-bikes have decent brakes, but I'm sure we're going to see a sharp rise in accidents that is going to bring much more scrutiny on all e-modes of personal transport, and I think we're going to see the opposite of leniency, and more restrictions.


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## Smudge (19 Jul 2019)

booze and cake said:


> At the current rate the signatures are trickling in, this going to fall well short of the 10,000 signatures needed by Dec 2019 for the Govt to even respond to this petition, never mind the 100,000 signatures needed for it to be considered for debate in Parliament.
> 
> Despite that I'd bet e-bikes, electric scooters, long boards and the like will be debated in Parliament before that. Their use is really growing here in London, we had the e-scooter death near where I live in Battersea recently, and I'm sure we're going to see more in the coming months, and that is going to fast-track it for debate sooner rather than later.
> 
> ...



I fear you're probably right. With seeing more and more non road legal ebikes and scooters these days, i really hope they don't put blanket legislation on all of us. Those of us that use legal ebikes, could have restrictions put on us, because of those that use illegal ones.
If measures are put in place just to target the non road legal ones, then i'll be happy with that. But i have a feeling that wont happen.
If the day comes that i cant use an ebike with all the freedoms of bicycles, i for one will start losing interest in them.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> only another 99,478 to go, I wonder how many ebike riders there are in the UK?



Looks like the petition is restricted to 15 mph.


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## booze and cake (19 Jul 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Looks like the petition is restricted to 15 mph.


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## Phaeton (19 Jul 2019)

Smudge said:


> Those of us that use legal ebikes, could have restrictions put on us, because of those that use illegal ones.


But isn't that like everything even 70mph on the Motorways, yes there is a need at times, but should it be the same at 8am, 12pm, 6pm 4am, whether it's dry, raining, snowing anybody with half a brain would modify their speed, unfortunately it appears that less than 1/2 of the UK population has less than 1/2 a brain.


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## MrGrumpy (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> So funny! Such an amusing comment!
> Don't worry, it's not going to happen. Meanwhile I'll just have to put up with my disability won't I ?


It was in jest I admit !! However what has speed got to do with your disability?


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jul 2019)

MrGrumpy said:


> It was in jest I admit !! However what has speed got to do with your disability?


If you read my earlier posts you'll know that after a lifetime (60 years or so, so far) of riding 'conventional' bikes I've developed a condition that prevents my riding very far unassisted and for very long at much over 15 - 16mph without some help (that's why I bought an Orbea Gain). I ride with a club - social rides. Not fast rides. I can only keep up over 15.5mph for long distances with a lot of pain. A 20 mph cut off (as in the US) would be very helpful. Selfish perhaps, but there it is … just have to put up with it.
Edit: - and I don't want a moped, motor bike, overpowered emtb - just a little bit of help, which the Orbea provides perfectly well, up to the arbitrary assistance cut off speed of 15.5 mph.


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## Phaeton (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> I ride with a club - social rides. Not fast rides. I can only keep up over 15.5mph for long distances with a lot of pain. A 20 mph cut off (as in the US) would be very helpful. Selfish perhaps, but there it is … just have to put up with it.


A social ride of over 15.5mph doesn't seem that social to me, it sounds like too much hard work.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> A social ride of over 15.5mph doesn't seem that social to me, it sounds like too much hard work.



There seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about this I am *NOT* saying we ride at an *AVERAGE* of over 15.5 mph. Social ride groups don't. Most times we will *average around 12 mph *over a ride of 25 - 30 miles. Don't you ever reach 15.5 mph or more? It's not that difficult on a road bike, in fact it's very easy on the flat, but for me over that it just becomes very painful quite soon.


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## Levo-Lon (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> There seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about this I am *NOT* saying we ride at an *AVERAGE* of over 15.5 mph. Social ride groups don't. Most times we will *average around 12 mph *over a ride of 25 - 30 miles. Don't you ever reach 15.5 mph or more? It's not that difficult on a road bike, in fact it's very easy on the flat, but for me over that it just becomes very painful quite soon.




Great aren't they, and perfect for just the people like yourself


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## Ian H (19 Jul 2019)

Personally, I think lowish cut-off speed is a good trade for not having compulsory insurance, registration, or tests of competency.


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## Phaeton (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> There seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about this I am *NOT* saying we ride at an *AVERAGE* of over 15.5 mph. Social ride groups don't. Most times we will *average around 12 mph *over a ride of 25 - 30 miles. Don't you ever reach 15.5 mph or more? It's not that difficult on a road bike, in fact it's very easy on the flat, but for me over that it just becomes very painful quite soon.


Calm down you think it ought to be higher I don't that's all there is to it no need to get upset.. But no I very rarely get up to 15 mph on the flat, but then I don't ride road bike's anymore.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> There seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about this I am *NOT* saying we ride at an *AVERAGE* of over 15.5 mph. Social ride groups don't. Most times we will *average around 12 mph *over a ride of 25 - 30 miles. Don't you ever reach 15.5 mph or more? It's not that difficult on a road bike, in fact it's very easy on the flat, but for me over that it just becomes very painful quite soon.



If they are riding fast on the flat doesn't sound like they are being very accommodating to you. I'd ask them to slow down, they will still hit the 12mph average. After all it is meant to be social, not a chain gang. You can all go faster on the downhills.


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## Smudge (19 Jul 2019)

Ian H said:


> Personally, I think lowish cut-off speed is a good trade for not having compulsory insurance, registration, or tests of competency.


 
I agree.... Plus having the privilege of being allowed to go wherever bicycles can go.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jul 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> If they are riding fast on the flat doesn't sound like they are being very accommodating to you. I'd ask them to slow down, they will still hit the 12mph average. After all it is meant to be social, not a chain gang. You can all go faster on the downhills.


Point is, 15.5 mph is NOT fast. I WANT to be able ride comfortably with the group at over that speed - I can and do - and if necessary the group wait too. I'm not out for a pootle. The reality is that a lot of club riders get very bored hanging around, and in my experience if you try to promote slower rides the numbers tail off.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Calm down you think it ought to be higher I don't that's all there is to it no need to get upset.. But no I very rarely get up to 15 mph on the flat, but then I don't ride road bike's anymore.


…. well there you go.


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## upandover (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> So funny! Such an amusing comment!
> Don't worry, it's not going to happen. Meanwhile I'll just have to put up with my disability won't I ?



Not exactly what you'd call a friendly or respectful response, is it.


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## derrick (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> There seems to be a hell of a lot of confusion about this I am *NOT* saying we ride at an *AVERAGE* of over 15.5 mph. Social ride groups don't. Most times we will *average around 12 mph *over a ride of 25 - 30 miles. Don't you ever reach 15.5 mph or more? It's not that difficult on a road bike, in fact it's very easy on the flat, but for me over that it just becomes very painful quite soon.


You need a more social group.


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## youngoldbloke (19 Jul 2019)

- I'm obviously not going to convert anyone to my point of view so I see no point in contributing anything more to this thread, or reading repetitious comments about motorbikes or mopeds. So no more from me here!


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## rivers (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> Point is, 15.5 mph is NOT fast. I WANT to be able ride comfortably with the group at over that speed - I can and do - and if necessary the group wait too. I'm not out for a pootle. The reality is that a lot of club riders get very bored hanging around, and in my experience if you try to promote slower rides the numbers tail off.



Tell that to the 175+ people who turn out nearly every week when the weather is nice in my club. There is a ride for everyone. From the 12-13mph pootle to the guys averaging 20mph+


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## DRHysted (19 Jul 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> Point is, 15.5 mph is NOT fast. I WANT to be able ride comfortably with the group at over that speed - I can and do - and if necessary the group wait too. I'm not out for a pootle. The reality is that a lot of club riders get very bored hanging around, and in my experience if you try to promote slower rides the numbers tail off.



15.5mph is fast to people doing between 2 to 4 mph.


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## CXRAndy (19 Jul 2019)

Its all relative, i like to ride around 18mph upto 22mph with a tailwind. My wife was comfortable at 12 mph, but now with assist is happy around 15 mph I can happily cruise at her speed even into a headwind.


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## Rusty Nails (19 Jul 2019)

Phaeton said:


> only another 99,478 to go, I wonder how many ebike riders there are in the UK?





Obviously a lot of sensible ones who CBA.


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## Notafettler (26 Aug 2019)

Isn't it an EU law?
Wait till 1st November.


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## Notafettler (26 Aug 2019)

Ian H said:


> Personally, I think lowish cut-off speed is a good trade for not having compulsory insurance, registration, or tests of competency.


Very good point. I personally think the 15.5 is a decent speed for the cutout, for the vast majority of people.


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## Notafettler (27 Aug 2019)

jowwy said:


> i posted a petition, i didnt post a debate on whether it should happen to try and sway people.........



*"It's not a race, it's a journey, enjoy the moment"*


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## Notafettler (27 Aug 2019)

jowwy said:


> especially as pedal powered bikes can already exceed that limit without the necessary helmet, VED, testing etc etc etc etc


Is there any other US laws that you would like applied in the UK?


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