# Wind farm bliss



## Ludwig (31 Aug 2008)

You often find that wind farms are superb for mountain biking with a fantastic network of roads and tracks stretching for miles that are little used by the masses who tend to flock to the honeypot, purpose built, theme park type trails. The wind farm where I do a 2 or 3 hour ride, I've never encountered any other mountain bikers, just the occasional moto cross rider and Land Rover. My favourite section is a challenging rollercoaster type route taking you up to about 2000ft whith superb views. Also you have to marvel at the engineering and vast size of the turbines.


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## andy_wrx (31 Aug 2008)

Yeah, must be wonderful technical singletrack.


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## dodgy (31 Aug 2008)

All the Wind farms around here are in the sea


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## Flying_Monkey (31 Aug 2008)

I was just over in the Netherlands (not great MTB country), but it struck me how many people in the UK have bought into the anti-wind turbine propaganda. They're everywhere in Holland and 1. you can hardly hear them even when you are right underneath, especially if there is any traffic (or indeed wind in the trees); 2. birds seems to have no problem with them at all; and 3. they don't distract drivers - the Dutch have them along many major roads with no apparent increase in accidents; and 4. yes, they look great and make me feel happy and hopeful.


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## longers (31 Aug 2008)

On a ride a month or so ago I saw a someone Paragliding through a wind farm. The blades were not turning but he/she was awful close to them. I thought it seemed a little bit risky.


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## wafflycat (31 Aug 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I was just over in the Netherlands (not great MTB country), but it struck me how many people in the UK have bought into the anti-wind turbine propaganda. They're everywhere in Holland and 1. you can hardly hear them even when you are right underneath, especially if there is any traffic (or indeed wind in the trees); 2. birds seems to have no problem with them at all; and 3. they don't distract drivers - the Dutch have them along many major roads with no apparent increase in accidents; and 4. yes, they look great and make me feel happy and hopeful.




Indeed, there is a huge pile of crap spouted about wind turbines. The modern direct drive ones are incredibly quiet. Standing at the foot of Swaffham II (Ecotricity), I could hear songbirds in the hedges over and above the sound of the rotating turbine blades. I think they can be magnificent structures - quite beautiful, and with checks kept on birdstrike at Swaffham - there was very, very little. Cycling past the wind farm at North Pickenham there is very little noise coming from a farm (Enertag) of 8 turbines. I can cycle by these and they are remarkable in the lack of noise from them. Certainly they aren't silent, but they are very quiet.


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## Jaded (31 Aug 2008)

The test ones up near Stornoway are noisy.

I guess if the new designs are so quiet they can be put right next to people's houses, rather than in some of the most remote and unspoilt areas left in the country?


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## wafflycat (31 Aug 2008)

Put it this way Jaded, if there was a planning application in for one in my village like the ones at Swaffham & North Pickenham, I'd not be objecting.

_Edit: indeed the folk of Swaffham positively welcomed the second after the experience of the first (I've seen the planning files) and North Pickenham wanted the wind farm by that village..._


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## Flying_Monkey (31 Aug 2008)

wafflycat said:


> Put it this way Jaded, if there was a planning application in for one in my village like the ones at Swaffham & North Pickenham, I'd not be objecting.



No problem here either - in fact, the place I am probably moving to in Canada will have wind turbines all over it. They don't belong everywhere, but British people are going to have to grow up and stop being so NIMBYish sooner or later.


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## wafflycat (31 Aug 2008)

Indeed as they are part of the solution to getting away from being over reliant on Russian oil & gas...


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## wafflycat (31 Aug 2008)

Where I grew up there was a big coal-fired power station probably about five'ish miles away as the crow flies. One of childhood memories I have is being woken during the night on a regular basis due to the *BOOM* noises coming from the turbines of that power station... several times a night. Wind turbines are absolute bliss compared to that.


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## snorri (31 Aug 2008)

Other countries have the turbines where the power is required, the power consumers in this country demand that generation take place far away ignoring the effect of transmission losses and eyesores of countless power distribution towers.
It's no' wise.


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## Mr Pig (31 Aug 2008)

There is a big wind farm near Shotts, over the back roads from me, that has about 100 turbines. However turbines are popping up in ones and twos all over the place. There are a couple up the back of the village and you can often see them dotted around in the distance.

I've never thought about taking bikes up to the one in Shotts, not a bad idea. I've walked in it before but it's large, cycling would be good.

I remember the first time I went right up to one of the turbines, I couldn't get over how big it was! From a distance, because of the simple shape and lack landmarks to measure it against, it's hard to get an idea of their size. But when you're standing underneath them the blades are still a good fifty feet above your head.

Just before I came on here I was looking at the countryside around my village on Flash Earth looking for tracks we could ride. This is where I live, the village of Plains is in the top left corner:

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=55.868606&lon=-3.884268&z=14.2&r=0&src=msa

We were out this morning checking out a little road/track my mate had spotted in Blackridge but there are lots of trails and routes you would never see from the ground. He's got satnav on his new phone now so there's no stopping us ;0)


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## Jaded (31 Aug 2008)

If only the government money that is being poured into the concrete bases of the wind turbines was instead directed into getting us to reduce our consumption by 50%, or into new technology that doesn't waste power so much.

Oh well.


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## GilesM (1 Sep 2008)

Must agree with Andy WRX on this one, just like riding miles of forest road, okay if that's what you like, but I prefer my MTB trails to be narrow single track. Lots of single track around, purpose built and natural which is very quiet.



Giles

PS. To a few on this thread, this is a thread about Off road riding in the Mountain Biking and Off road Section, not Politics & Life.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> If only the government money that is being poured into the concrete bases of the wind turbines was instead directed into getting us to reduce our consumption by 50%, or into new technology that doesn't waste power so much.
> 
> Oh well.



Yeah, and if we invested it in vineyards we'd have a world beating wine industry... 

... and ooh, scary _concrete_ bases, that's got to be nasty hasn't it? 

This isn't really a very strong argument. The two things aren't incompatible, you know (energy efficiency and a mix of renewable / continuous sources)... we need proper energy, transport and planning policies that deal with the realities of climate change.


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## GilesM (1 Sep 2008)

Mr Pig said:


> Just before I came on here I was looking at the countryside around my village on Flash Earth looking for tracks we could ride. This is where I live, the village of Plains is in the top left corner:
> 
> http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=55.868606&lon=-3.884268&z=14.2&r=0&src=msa
> 
> We were out this morning checking out a little road/track my mate had spotted in Blackridge but there are lots of trails and routes you would never see from the ground. He's got satnav on his new phone now so there's no stopping us ;0)



Looks good, wherever you are in Scotland it never takes long to get out into fantastic and very remote countryside. 

Giles


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## Mr Pig (1 Sep 2008)

GilesM said:


> wherever you are in Scotland it never takes long to get out into fantastic and very remote countryside.



I love it. Basically out of my door, round the corner and say hello to the sheep and horses :0) 

Like everything else though, after a while you just take it for granted. It would be very hard to move to a city though, I'd hate it.


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## Jaded (1 Sep 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> *This isn't really a very strong argument.* The two things aren't incompatible, you know (energy efficiency and a mix of renewable / continuous sources)... we need proper energy, transport and planning policies that deal with the realities of climate change.



So, given you want both - tell me where all the consumption stuff is? Where exactly is this set of proper policies? All I see is a ROC fuelled dash to go green in generation alone.

Frankly your attitude is exactly the attitude that encourages Joe Public to go on consuming with impunity. Throw some lovely turbines up where only a few walkers go and everything will be alright. <rolls eyes>


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## Smeggers (1 Sep 2008)

The sheer quantity of wind farms needed to acheive even just 20% oif our energy requirement is unfeasible.

Despite whatever you think about them aesthetically, they are simply not practical and are only there to pay polictical lip service to the yoghurt knitters.

Edit: Point taken on the mountain biking bit - every cloud eh!


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> So, given you want both - tell me where all the consumption stuff is? Where exactly is this set of proper policies? All I see is a ROC fuelled dash to go green in generation alone.
> 
> Frankly your attitude is exactly the attitude that encourages Joe Public to go on consuming with impunity. Throw some lovely turbines up where only a few walkers go and everything will be alright. <rolls eyes>



Don't be stupid - you sound like Linford now, you are just building a straw man to argue against. As it happens, I have been an environmental activist and campaigner since I was 16 and I was on the Green Party's national policy committee - so there's no way you are going to get away with silly little digs like that. And you'll know all of this is you have ever paid any attention to any of the discussions we have had on this forum and on Cycling Plus about energy, climate and so on.


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## Jaded (1 Sep 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Don't be stupid - you sound like Linford now, you are just building a straw man to argue against. *As it happens, I have been an environmental activist and campaigner since I was 16 and I was on the Green Party's national policy committee* - so there's no way you are going to get away with silly little digs like that. And you'll know all of this is you have ever paid any attention to any of the discussions we have had on this forum and on Cycling Plus about energy, climate and so on.



Ah, that's OK then.

Well done! 

PS, where are the proper policies, you missed that bit!

PPS, if I was sounding like Linford or SimonCC I'd have to take you to task for your flying. But I'm not. So I won't.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> PS, where are the proper policies, you missed that bit!



Do you mean where are this government's policies? Or what are my ideas? 

In the former case, probably in the same place as their commitment to an ethical foreign policy and social justice, and for the latter - I will start a new thread in Politics rather than going on about it here. Ok?


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## Jaded (1 Sep 2008)

I'll remind you of your first post on a thread about MTBing near wind turbines. 



Flying_Monkey said:


> I was just over in the Netherlands (not great MTB country), *but it struck me how many people in the UK have bought into the anti-wind turbine propaganda.*



Then you said this:


> ... and ooh, scary concrete bases, that's got to be nasty hasn't it?



So get off the high horse!

Ok:


> Do you mean where are this government's policies? Or what are my ideas?



If your policies can influence consumption across the land as opposed to in your house, I'm interested in them.

Dealing with generation (primarily) before dealing with waste in consumption is just plain silly.


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## PaulSB (1 Sep 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> 2. birds seems to have no problem with them at all



I have friend who has a windfarm on his Argyll farm ( I know how that sounds but it isn't the case!). I suppose the turbines have been there for 10-12 years now and it must have taken something like 5 years to get the planning permission. The area is famous for eagles and the RSPB objected to the turbines on the grounds eagles might be injured by the blades.

My friend has never forgotten the meeting at which the RSPB representative took him to one side and whispered in hushed tones..........."Between you and me we think the eagles will fly round the turbines not through them!"


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> I'll remind you of your first post on a thread about MTBing near wind turbines.
> 
> Then you said this:
> 
> So get off the high horse!



What on earth are you talking about? I really don't know what your point is here. Perhaps you didn't get the obvious sarcasm in the second quote... 



> If your policies can influence consumption across the land as opposed to in your house, I'm interested in them.
> 
> Dealing with generation (primarily) before dealing with waste in consumption is just plain silly.



Who said anything about being in favour of only or primarily dealing with generation? You seem to assume quite a lot about what other people think - if you go over to the thread I have started about energy policy in Politics, you might learn something from the variety of different perspectives there, most of whom, including myself, do not fit your caricature. So try discussing what people actually say, not what you would like them to have said.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

PaulSB said:


> My friend has never forgotten the meeting at which the RSPB representative took him to one side and whispered in hushed tones..........."Between you and me we think the eagles will fly round the turbines not through them!"



Indeed. I did actually do some research on the environmental impacts of windfarms as part of a course in EIA for my Masters degree, and bird strike has only been a problem in two particular (and now notorious) locations in Spain and California where wind farms had been built in narrow valleys on migration flight paths - and even then it was a temporary phenomenon - plus these farms were build before people conducted serious EIAs (whatever their flaws).


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## Jaded (1 Sep 2008)

FM - you appeared on this thread (about MTBing) going on about anti-windfarm propaganda. 

So try discussing what you actually say, rather than obfuscating and feigning surprise. Alternatively, don't pop into MTBing threads with silly stuff about 'anti-wind turbine propaganda'.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> FM - you appeared on this thread (about MTBing) going on about anti-windfarm propaganda.
> 
> So try discussing what you actually say, rather than obfuscating and feigning surprise. Alternatively, don't pop into MTBing threads with silly stuff about 'anti-wind turbine propaganda'.



Actually, the thread was about MTBing on windfarms. Wind farms would therefore appear to be an essential part of the discussion. 

I would like to respond to your second paragraph but it makes very little substantial sense and appears to be a rather poor attempt at a playground tit-for-tat.

There are two problems with your arguments here - one you set up straw men rather too readily, and then secondly, you get all incomprehensible and irrational when someone points this out. I'm neither obfuscating or feigning any kind of surprise -about what? where? please tell me - I'm afraid I can only answer points or questions that actually make sense.


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## Jaded (1 Sep 2008)

Anti-windfarm propaganda is nothing to do with MTBing. However long you have been in the Green Party!


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> Anti-windfarm propaganda is nothing to do with MTBing. However long you have been in the Green Party!



You seemed to think that arguing about wind farms was interesting enough until you started losing the argument. Check your first post - not even a mention of cycling. Shocking.  I think that's enough now...


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## domtyler (1 Sep 2008)

Whether or not they make for good mountain biking is irrelevant. These ghastly, noisy, inefficient, ineffectual, bird killing machines should be ripped out of their concrete footings and consigned both to the bottom of the sea and the history books. For all our sakes.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Sep 2008)

domtyler said:


> Whether or not they make for good mountain biking is irrelevant. These ghastly, noisy, inefficient, ineffectual, bird killing machines should be ripped out of their concrete footings and consigned both to the bottom of the sea and the history books. For all our sakes.



You're too late and too stupid. Sorry. Try the Energy Policy thread in Politics...


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## domtyler (1 Sep 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> You're too late and too stupid. Sorry. Try the Energy Policy thread in Politics...



You really are a bit of a Laura aren't you?


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## Jaded (1 Sep 2008)

Flying_Monkey said:


> You seemed to think that arguing about wind farms was interesting enough until you started losing the argument. Check your first post - not even a mention of cycling. Shocking.  I think that's enough now...



You don't seem to be able to grasp that you changed the tack of this thread by introducing your propaganda.

I have lost no argument. You never provided one, just some flim flam and obfuscation.


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> You don't seem to be able to grasp that you changed the tack of this thread by introducing your propaganda.



I have no problem with knowing that I changed the tack of the thread, actually. I took what was already there, and added and extended that part. So you are wrong again wth another unjustified assumption.



> I have lost no argument. You never provided one, just some flim flam and obfuscation.



Ha ha. You are really very funny. You were quite willing to try to argue about windfarms until you realised you were up against people who weren't quite so stupid (see how both Waffly and I dismissed your 'challenge' for example), and then when you'd exhausted your store of straw men and found your imputations and assumptions were all entirely unjustified, you start becomint incoherent and then accusing other people of irrelevence in even starting the discussion in the first place. 

Hilarious. If you really thought that was important you would have said so straight away rather than what you did do, which was quite willingly get involved in a discussion about wind farms. 

Enough with the hypocrisy. You are really making yourself look rather silly and as I have no desire to keep kicking someone when they are down, this will be my last post on this thread.


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## Jaded (2 Sep 2008)

It seems that we have to return to the post that you never answered.



Jaded said:


> So, given you want both - tell me where all the consumption stuff is? Where exactly is this set of proper policies? All I see is a ROC fuelled dash to go green in generation alone.
> 
> Frankly your attitude is exactly the attitude that encourages Joe Public to go on consuming with impunity. Throw some lovely turbines up where only a few walkers go and everything will be alright. <rolls eyes>



You didn't answer the last point (you asked if I was talking about your policies!) and you skirted round the first.

You simply told us all that you were right because you have been a member of the Green Party since you were legally able to smoke.

I respect Wafflycat's views, even though I disagree with some of them. It would suit you better not to bring them into to shore up your stance.

I never thought you were stupid, however in this thread you show that you can be.


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## wafflycat (2 Sep 2008)

Actually Jaded, FM did answer - and to help keep the MTB board, more MTB and less political, he started a thread on this issue over on the politics & life board, a more appropriate home for this sort of discussion, especially when it gets to be, err... longwinded.


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## Jaded (2 Sep 2008)

Indeed. He started a new thread but hasn't actually responded to posts on his thread.


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## wafflycat (2 Sep 2008)

Err.. he has. He has several posts on that thread. He has made responses.


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## Jaded (2 Sep 2008)

Largely to praise high rise, condemn Thatcher and impugn Andyfromottly.

Not a lot of input on energy policy.


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## GilesM (2 Sep 2008)

Jaded said:


> Largely to praise high rise, condemn Thatcher and impugn Andyfromottly.
> 
> Not a lot of input on energy policy.



And possibly to tell us all that he is very clever, but to say that would just be childish, and this is the MTB section and it would be hypocritcal of me to post non MTB replies, so I'll keep quiet.


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## Notsoblue (5 Sep 2008)

Think of the bats!


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqu4WiLQfk


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