# Fatigue frustration



## Milzy (21 Apr 2018)

Missed the sunshine today as I still feel drained from the last training ride. Everyone seems to be smashing in serious mileage. 
Has anybody got any recovery tips apart from pasta with early night?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (21 Apr 2018)

Ride less, rest


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## the_mikey (21 Apr 2018)

Could be a virus or something, rest and don't worry about blasting around your favourite route, slow down, take rests and enjoy the ride Your fitness will come eventually.


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## derrick (21 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> Missed the sunshine today as I still feel drained from the last training ride. Everyone seems to be smashing in serious mileage.
> Has anybody got any recovery tips apart from pasta with early night?


Stuff the pasta. eat some proper food, not a bit of pasta has past my lips, nor will it ever.


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## Milzy (21 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> Stuff the pasta. eat some proper food, not a bit of pasta has past my lips, nor will it ever.
> View attachment 405388


I’ve only 65, what’s your secret? My FTP is up but wiped out today.


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## Pat "5mph" (21 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> what’s your secret?


@derrick is retired


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## Milzy (21 Apr 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @derrick is retired


No wonder. Had a tough week at work


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## screenman (21 Apr 2018)

I train hard 6 days a week and often feel fatigued, but on those rest days I buzz and also allow well.


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## Pat "5mph" (21 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> No wonder. Had a tough week at work


I feel a big difference in my riding energy levels after a few days off work.
I don't have a desk job, always on the go at work.
I still commute by bike whatever the length of the shift (could be 5 or 14 hours), obviously much slower when I'm exhausted.


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## Welsh wheels (21 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> No wonder. Had a tough week at work


Aye, don't beat yourself up. Sometimes the last thing you want to do after work is go out on the bike.


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## Racing roadkill (21 Apr 2018)

Fatigue is the hardest thing to deal with, in my opinion. I often get asked to get people riding up to 200 miles in one go, and my advice is always that fuelling is the main thing to concern themselves with up to 100 miles, as soon as we get to the 150-200 mile distances, it’s the fatigue and the fueling in unison, that’s the bugger. If you run short of fuel, eating something, and backing off a bit works, when the fatigue hits, you can’t do anything to help it, other than stop, and rest. Whether you get the fatigue on a long ride, or because of several rides, undertaken without sufficient recovery in between, the advice is the same, only sufficient rest will help.


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## derrick (21 Apr 2018)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @derrick is retired


I may be retired. I still work a lot harder than some. At 66 i can still do 200 mile rides. But i dont eat pasta.


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## derrick (21 Apr 2018)

It is all about fuelling yourself. Finding what is good for you. On my first 200 mile ride. The club supplied pasta and pizza. Tasted awful. After 160 miles we had our last stop. My other half was in the support vehicle. I asked her to get some pies or proper food. She came back with a gala pie. We soon demolished that. Then finished the ride. Eat proper food.


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## Milzy (21 Apr 2018)

I’ve done it with too many frequent short and medium rides with too much effort. Tomorrow is another day.


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## Racing roadkill (22 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> It is all about fuelling yourself



Not on a proper long ride it isn’t. If you’re not properly rested, you’ll get the ‘double whammy’ of ‘fuel out’ and fatigue. I still regularly encounter people who come on my guided endurance rides, who think it’s a good idea to go out on the lash the couple of nights before, then find out the hard way, that you can out eat a fuel out, but you can’t do anything about the muscles packing up because their fatigued. When you get the two in unison, it’s really nasty, and most people tend to have to go over 150 miles to get the full effect. I still get idiots trying to advise them that it’s “all about the fuelling” and “eat something, you’ll be fine” if they’re daft enough to listen, then on their heads be it.


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## derrick (22 Apr 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> Not on a proper long ride it isn’t. If you’re not properly rested, you’ll get the ‘double whammy’ of ‘fuel out’ and fatigue. I still regularly encounter people who come on my guided endurance rides, who think it’s a good idea to go out on the lash the couple of nights before, then find out the hard way, that you can out eat a fuel out, but you can’t do anything about the muscles packing up because their fatigued. When you get the two in unison, it’s really nasty, and most people tend to have to go over 150 miles to get the full effect. I still get idiots trying to advise them that it’s “all about the fuelling” and “eat something, you’ll be fine” if they’re daft enough to listen, then on their heads be it.


What is a proper long ride? Have done loads of hundred mile rides with mates, after a night on the lash, if you choose to ride with the boys they do not have the legs, you need to ride with men.


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## mgs315 (22 Apr 2018)

I’d argue that intensity matters far more to me than miles. I’m quite happy to churn out around 100 miles at an easy pace on a relatively flat course but I’d much rather blast 35-50ish on a hilly course at full gas whenever I can stand it. I tend to ride more PBs solo than in groups as a result.


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## Milzy (22 Apr 2018)

mgs315 said:


> I’d argue that intensity matters far more to me than miles. I’m quite happy to churn out around 100 miles at an easy pace on a relatively flat course but I’d much rather blast 35-50ish on a hilly course at full gas whenever I can stand it. I tend to ride more PBs solo than in groups as a result.


Same here. I can’t just tootle around. Into the red mostly.


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## Cuchilo (23 Apr 2018)

I agree with Derrick , pasta is a made up food thats pretty crap for your body and in my case induces a sugar rush / bonk a few hours after eating it .


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## fossyant (23 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> I’ve only 65, what’s your secret? My FTP is up but wiped out today.



That's 65 miles more than I've done in the week. Did two MTB rides last weekend but with work it finished me off for the last week.


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## huwsparky (25 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> Same here. I can’t just tootle around. Into the red mostly.


That's likely a big part of your problem. To become a fast cyclist over distance you need to train your body to be efficient. Long rides at a much lower intensity is key to building endurance. Over time you'll get to be able to do your current 'flat out' pace at a much lower intensity therefore being able to go harder for longer. If you're not willing to change your mindset about 'training', you can forget it.


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## kingrollo (25 Apr 2018)

Back off would be my advice. I had a similar thing some years back - the more miles I did the worse and slower I was - I thought the solution was even more miles - minor aches and pains - became pretty painful - still I pushed on - one night I rode 40 miles in total agony - I was off the bike for 3 years after that.

Diagnosis wise my hamstrings had gotten so damm tight - the tendons were tearing from the pelvis. With hindsight my whole body was screaming for rest - I had rode myself into the ground.

I do gym and yoga sessions now to supplement my cycling - Im not fast - but fast enough to ride with the club I am in - done a couple of 100's and have more planned. I am fitter than most people my age and can still do the sport I love.


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## derrick (25 Apr 2018)

I try to do a few hard 25 miles in the week. That makes the longer rides easier at a stedier pace. Its all about finding your sweat spot.


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## Globalti (26 Apr 2018)

Cuchilo said:


> I agree with Derrick , pasta is a made up food thats pretty crap for your body and in my case induces a sugar rush / bonk a few hours after eating it .



Absolutely incorrect. Pasta is made from wheat and eggs so it's natural. It is a pure carbohydrate so gives the very opposite effect of sugar, a steady release of energy rather than a quick easily-available burst that can lead to the bonk.

My problem with a big pasta meal the evening before an event is that it inevitably leads to at least one morning session on the bog, which can't be hurried because of the lack of bulk. This is always inconvenient just before an early start. Better to buy maltodextrin from Myprotein.com and put an inch in your water bottle to fuel you during the ride. 

Most cyclists spend the summer in a state of permanent fatigue because they overdo it and don't get enough protein to repair muscle damage. Eat quality meats and lots of eggs to recover after a big event and recognise how much a big ride takes out of an amateur.


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## Cuchilo (26 Apr 2018)

Globalti said:


> Absolutely incorrect. Pasta is made from wheat and eggs so it's natural. It is a pure carbohydrate so gives the very opposite effect of sugar, a steady release of energy rather than a quick easily-available burst that can lead to the bonk.


Almost correct apart from its processed food and your body uses the glucose for energy ( thats sugar ) Which in turn makes your body produce insulin which in turn makes you crave more sugar ( thats the bonk )
Thats also the short version


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## Vantage (26 Apr 2018)

All carbohydrates are sugar but they can be separated into slow burning carbs and fast burning carbs. Pasta is a slow burning carb and releases it's energy over a longer period. Jelly babies are fast acting and good for short term boosts.
Insulin breaks down glucose so the body can use it more efficiently but doesn't actually cause a craving for it. That happens if the body uses up the sugar too quickly causing hypoglycema and the need for more sugar to replenish it.


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## Cuchilo (26 Apr 2018)

Vantage said:


> All carbohydrates are sugar but they can be separated into slow burning carbs and fast burning carbs. Pasta is a slow burning carb and releases it's energy over a longer period. Jelly babies are fast acting and good for short term boosts.
> Insulin breaks down glucose so the body can use it more efficiently but doesn't actually cause a craving for it. That happens if the body uses up the sugar too quickly causing hypoglycemia and the need for more sugar to replenish it.


Like exercising hard resulting in bonking after eating slow burning carbs / sugar , causing the body to crave sugar / jelly babies .
I'm glad you joined this discussion Vantage as i have suffered this bonk / hypoglycemia a few times over the last 30 years and ive always wondered why it happens after a pasta meal with a physical job . Just starting to understand why now .


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## Milzy (26 Apr 2018)

Had 2 days off and smashed a 35 tonight. I totally relate to the permanent state of fatigue in the summer. Could do with 2 more days off now then a long slow ride Sunday.


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## huwsparky (26 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> Had 2 days off and smashed a 35 tonight. I totally relate to the permanent state of fatigue in the summer. Could do with 2 more days off now then a long slow ride Sunday.


You need to change your mindset. Forget about smashing a 35. Think of your rides in time and intensity, aiming for a certain milage just clouds what you really need to be doing. There's definitely a place for sweet spot rides (which is what you're doing) but it's just not good training to be doing all your rides at that intensity mainly for the reasons your finding amongst others.


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## Milzy (27 Apr 2018)

77 mile 6000ft plotted for Sunday. Will be taking it slowly.


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## Alan O (28 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> I may be retired. I still work a lot harder than some. At 66 i can still do 200 mile rides. But i dont eat pasta.


You could do 300 miles if you did


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## Alan O (28 Apr 2018)

Vantage said:


> All carbohydrates are sugar


No they're not. Simple carbs like sucrose, glucose etc are sugars, but complex carbs like starches are not. Perhaps pedantic, and they are metabolised into sugars, but they are not themselves sugars.


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## Alan O (28 Apr 2018)

I'm not an endurance/intensive cyclist by a long way. I am training for a 100-mile ride in July, but that's a distance that many ride as training for bigger things. Bearing that in mind, I'll offer a couple of observations.

I was forced off the bike for 3 weeks in April due to illness and then an ankle injury, and I feared that I'd have lost some fitness when I got back to it. But after a few evening rides this week, that's clearly not happened, and I felt great getting back on - and when I got home I discovered a handful of Strava PRs on my regular short runs. Rest is very important.

The other thing is that I think alternating longer weekend rides (for me that's 50 miles or so) at a steady pace with shorter and higher intensity rides on midweek evenings (15-20 miles) is improving my fitness better than just concentrating on distance.


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## derrick (28 Apr 2018)

Alan O said:


> The other thing is that I think alternating longer weekend rides (for me that's 50 miles or so) at a steady pace with shorter and higher intensity rides on midweek evenings (15-20 miles) is improving my fitness better than just concentrating on distance.



I agree with that a few fast 25 mile loops in the week, when it comes to longer at the weekend they feel so easy. But we do ride a bit slower at weekennds. But don't agree with the pasta, you can keep that,


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## Ianboydsnr (28 Apr 2018)

I find that I need about four days rest after a hard session, of course I break that rule and suffer because of it, but if I want to Improve then four days I must wait, I can do light sessions in between the four days, but it was only when I realised that I felt much less tired and stronger once the 4 days had passed, that I was overtraining and not improving because of it.


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## derrick (28 Apr 2018)

I always taper before a long ride, if i have a long ride planned for next weekend i will do a couple of easy 25 mile rides Monday and Tuesday, then rest till the weekend, works for me.


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## lane (28 Apr 2018)

Balancing rest and recovery is the key to progress. Easier said than done.


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Apr 2018)

Have a read on the balance between training and recovery

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2017/04/training-stress-fatigue-recovery-adaptation.html


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## Trigger369 (28 Apr 2018)

For me . I do 2 1hr sessions on the trainer during the week and a ride at the weekend . 30 mile 2hr ride done today finished around 10.30am. Had porridge b4 i left . Had a stop half way with a cream bun and bottle of lucozade sport. Also drank a 750ml and half 500ml water .Got home had a shake and 2poached egg 2 pancakes and beans .
And guess what ,
I still have a sore head after the ride .happens every weekend ride and it's the only part of me that's sore .it's nearly 10pm now and it's only starting to settle now. Anyone else get this?


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## vickster (28 Apr 2018)

Trigger369 said:


> For me . I do 2 1hr sessions on the trainer during the week and a ride at the weekend . 30 mile 2hr ride done today finished around 10.30am. Had porridge b4 i left . Had a stop half way with a cream bun and bottle of lucozade sport. Also drank a 750ml and half 500ml water .Got home had a shake and 2poached egg 2 pancakes and beans .
> And guess what ,
> I still have a sore head after the ride .happens every weekend ride and it's the only part of me that's sore .it's nearly 10pm now and it's only starting to settle now. Anyone else get this?


Is your bike the right size and set up well...headaches often caused by tension around the neck


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## Trigger369 (28 Apr 2018)

Giant contend med frame I'm 5"9. So frame should be good . Still tinkering with setup to be honest .Just moved my saddle forward about 5mm today and it was a bit better on the bottom . I'm thinking it's the neck as well because on the trainer I don't a sore head only on the road I must be straining my neck . 
I need get a few pounds together and invest in a retul bike fit . Keep it shy from the wife ya know


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## 400bhp (28 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> I’ve only 65, what’s your secret? My FTP is up but wiped out today.



If you have a power meter, do you monitor Training Stress Score (TSS) at all?

Aside from the above, a pal of mine uses RHR (measured frst thing in the morning) as a broad guide for fatigue. If it's up about 10bpm he takes that as a sign to rest.

Also, a very simple rule of thumb is 4 weeks on, one week off. The off being "recovery". You then have to figure out what recovery means for you.


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## Milzy (28 Apr 2018)

400bhp said:


> If you have a power meter, do you monitor Training Stress Score (TSS) at all?
> 
> Aside from the above, a pal of mine uses RHR (measured frst thing in the morning) as a broad guide for fatigue. If it's up about 10bpm he takes that as a sign to rest.
> 
> Also, a very simple rule of thumb is 4 weeks on, one week off. The off being "recovery". You then have to figure out what recovery means for you.


I have stretched myself with a large mortgage and kids like a common cog of society so I can’t afford a power meter yet. Hopefully have one in 18 months. 
The heart rate watching is a good tip though.


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## vickster (28 Apr 2018)

Trigger369 said:


> Giant contend med frame I'm 5"9. So frame should be good . Still tinkering with setup to be honest .Just moved my saddle forward about 5mm today and it was a bit better on the bottom . I'm thinking it's the neck as well because on the trainer I don't a sore head only on the road I must be straining my neck .
> I need get a few pounds together and invest in a retul bike fit . Keep it shy from the wife ya know


Forget retul, get a physio to assess you and do the fit. Retul was probably my biggest cycling related waste of £150, £90 on physio assessment among my best 

Do you wear a helmet and cycling specs? Probably contributing factors that you don't use on the trainer, nor do you have to crane your neck indoors unlike outside where you need to watch the road


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## Milzy (28 Apr 2018)

Pot holes give me headaches or dehydration. On a side note my resting heart rate is 37 so pleased with that.


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## screenman (29 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> Pot holes give me headaches or dehydration. On a side note my resting heart rate is 37 so pleased with that.



I would not be pleased with that of I was suffering from fatigue, I train hard up to 6 days a week and on one of those days swim and gym, what I do find is I feel fatigued when I up my training until I adjust too it, then it is time to up it again.


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## Milzy (29 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> I would not be pleased with that of I was suffering from fatigue, I train hard up to 6 days a week and on one of those days swim and gym, what I do find is I feel fatigued when I up my training until I adjust too it, then it is time to up it again.


I’ve recently upped it, in process of adjusting right now. Next week is a lighter load.


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## screenman (29 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> I’ve recently upped it, in process of adjusting right now. Next week is a lighter load.



Still seems very low if you are fatigued. I would be off to the doctors for a check.


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## lane (29 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> I would not be pleased with that of I was suffering from fatigue, I train hard up to 6 days a week and on one of those days swim and gym, what I do find is I feel fatigued when I up my training until I adjust too it, then it is time to up it again.



We are all different and have different non cycling stress in our lives. Age can also be a factor in how fast you recover. Based on my experience I know I could never train hard 6 days a week without being into the realm of overtraining due to the time it takes me to recover from a hard session. I don't think that would be managable for a lot of people. It is true that gradual increases in training load are the way to go - now if I could just take my own advice!


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## screenman (29 Apr 2018)

lane said:


> We are all different and have different non cycling stress in our lives. Age can also be a factor in how fast you recover. Based on my experience I know I could never train hard 6 days a week without being into the realm of overtraining due to the time it takes me to recover from a hard session. I don't think that would be managable for a lot of people. It is true that gradual increases in training load are the way to go - now if I could just take my own advice!



Age can indeed be a huge factor, I am only 62 so that is no problem here yet.


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## Tommy2 (29 Apr 2018)

I think I’m going to work on a 10 day training plan rather than 7 as life and lack of proper recovery time are getting in the way of gains so an extra day or 2 in between sessions should be beneficial.


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## gbb (29 Apr 2018)

A visit to the docs may well be the right thing to do.
I just went down the shops and there' a health assessment van parked up so in I went because all I do is feel tired and achy...for the last 6 months maybe. Doc has diagnosed (without specific tests) osteo arthritis.
All seems fine but she was surprised at a diagnosis without tests nd thought vitamin D deficiency could be a culprit...some thought for your general fatigue Milzy. Off to the docs next week for me...I'm fed up of this achyness and lethargy.


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## vickster (29 Apr 2018)

gbb said:


> A visit to the docs may well be the right thing to do.
> I just went down the shops and there' a health assessment van parked up so in I went because all I do is feel tired and achy...for the last 6 months maybe. Doc has diagnosed (without specific tests) osteo arthritis.
> All seems fine but she was surprised at a diagnosis without tests nd thought vitamin D deficiency could be a culprit...some thought for your general fatigue Milzy. Off to the docs next week for me...I'm fed up of this achyness and lethargy.


Ask the GP to do full bloods, iron, vit d, thyroid, inflammatory markers, X-rays of affected joints to confirm OA. Maybe get a referral to an MSK specialist rheumatologist started as unless you can go private, you'll probably have a bit of a wait if the bloods don't show anything specific


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## derrick (29 Apr 2018)

How many miles on the bike is a good training distance, obviously depends on what you are training for, i am not really training for anything, but i have been doing between 170 to 200 miles a week for the last 6 weeks.


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## screenman (29 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> How many miles on the bike is a good training distance, obviously depends on what you are training for, i am not really training for anything, but i have been doing between 170 to 200 miles a week for the last 6 weeks.



I raced at my best on 150 miles a week plus races.


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## Milzy (29 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Still seems very low if you are fatigued. I would be off to the doctors for a check.


Over 8000 feet of climbing today and don’t feel too bad. I don’t need a doctor to say you have a hard job and a child who doesn’t let you rest etc.


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## screenman (29 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> Over 8000 feet of climbing today and don’t feel too bad. I don’t need a doctor to say you have a hard job and a child who doesn’t let you rest etc.



The point I was making is a low heart rate and fatigue seldom go together. I have felt your pain having been the father of 3 children and working a minimum of 6 days a week up until I was 55+. The joys of owning a busy business.


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## Milzy (29 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> The point I was making is a low heart rate and fatigue seldom go together. I have felt your pain having been the father of 3 children and working a minimum of 6 days a week up until I was 55+. The joys of owning a busy business.


My resting rate will be up tonight no doubt. Last few years I’ve only ridden for pleasure. Only now am I trying to gain performance. It’s tough but the progress is a Stella buzz.


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