# Squats



## mikeruss (16 Jul 2015)

I am going to do some squats in the gym for strength training. I know not to lift massive weight like a bodybuilder but for strength training is there a specific weight and rep to complete. I weigh 206lb and it is coming down


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## Citius (16 Jul 2015)




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## Incontinentia Buttocks (16 Jul 2015)

Read this
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts


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## edindave (16 Jul 2015)

Imodium. Oh sorry, I thought you were talking squits.


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## sight-pin (16 Jul 2015)

I placed my heels on the edge of a thick coconut mat when i did squats, you'll find it makes the balance much easier when using a barbell. (Just in case it doesn't get mentioned)


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## Yellow Saddle (16 Jul 2015)

Strength training is only beneficial to a cycling training program if done in the right part of your periodization programme. Also, squats on their own won't do much. You have to combine cycle strength training with lunges, seated row, hamstring curls, quad extensions, calf lifts, donkey lilfts and a series of core exercises.

Strength training is only required if you want to improve certain aspects of your cycling, like climbing and sprinting. Do you really need this over endurance?

Like they say in the dieting industry: "only effective as part of a balanced regime."


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## Citius (16 Jul 2015)

Just to repeat what I said in last week's thread - which is still on the first page of this forum - cycling performance is not limited by strength, and available evidence suggests that additional strength does not improve cycling performance any more than the equivalent amount of cycling. Strength training may even be detrimental. There's no real evidence that it is in any way beneficial.

Anyway, is the OP even talking about cycling training? Or just going to the gym in order to look good in speedos?


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## ayceejay (16 Jul 2015)

Not enough information to give a comprehensive answer but squats are a good way to gain weight and size.
Chris Hoy does squats regularly.


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## Yellow Saddle (16 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Just to repeat what I said in last week's thread - which is still on the first page of this forum - cycling performance is not limited by strength, and available evidence suggests that additional strength does not improve cycling performance any more than the equivalent amount of cycling. Strength training may even be detrimental. There's no real evidence that it is in any way beneficial.
> 
> Anyway, is the OP even talking about cycling training? Or just going to the gym in order to look good in speedos?


Squats do NOT make you look good in a Speedo. It gives you a big arse, that's all.
Anyway, I disagree about your view on strength training but I suspect we are not poles apart. Joe Friel's Cyclist Training Bible explains that strength training for cycling should always be structure so that it does not attempt to isolate one muscle/group like bodybuilders do, but involve muscles either side of a joint. I'm paraphrasing big-time here since it is a while I paid attention to that regime. Also, it is generally done in the off-season and should be more pronounced for older athlets than younger ones.

But squats in a Speedo it ain't.


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## mikeruss (16 Jul 2015)

Who is op? I wanted to do squats to improve my climbing I recently did the buttertub sportive and struggled a lot I thought a mix of core training and squats would help


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## mikeruss (16 Jul 2015)

I am 45 years old if that is old


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## Citius (16 Jul 2015)

mikeruss said:


> Who is op? I wanted to do squats to improve my climbing I recently did the buttertub sportive and struggled a lot I thought a mix of core training and squats would help



Stronger legs will not get you up hills faster. Better cardiovascular fitness will get you up hills faster. 

Pushing the pedals up a hill involves nothing even remotely close to a maximal strength effort - so making your legs even stronger than they already are is not going to improve your climbing. Climbing (or even cycling in general) involves repeated applications of a very low level of force - in other words, it's an aerobic effort, so your limitations will be aerobic in nature.


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## Citius (16 Jul 2015)

Yellow Saddle said:


> Squats do NOT make you look good in a Speedo. It gives you a big arse, that's all.
> Anyway, I disagree about your view on strength training but I suspect we are not poles apart. Joe Friel's Cyclist Training Bible explains that strength training for cycling should always be structure so that it does not attempt to isolate one muscle/group like bodybuilders do, but involve muscles either side of a joint. I'm paraphrasing big-time here since it is a while I paid attention to that regime. Also, it is generally done in the off-season and should be more pronounced for older athlets than younger ones.
> 
> But squats in a Speedo it ain't.



I suspect Joe isn't actually talking about strength training then, by the sound of it. Cycling is all about sustainable power, and in cycling terms you can generate relatively high levels of sustainable power on relatively 'weak' legs. 'Weak' in the sense that they are no stronger than the legs of the average man in the street.


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## Drago (16 Jul 2015)

The chicks dig a big, but firm and shapely butt on a man.


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## Yellow Saddle (16 Jul 2015)

mikeruss said:


> Who is op? I wanted to do squats to improve my climbing I recently did the buttertub sportive and struggled a lot I thought a mix of core training and squats would help


OP is you. Original Poster.

From what you just said above here, I can safely say that squats will not help you achieve a better time in a sportive. Ride more, get a proper training programme and lose weight if you have weight to lose.


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## mikeruss (16 Jul 2015)

Oh I have weight to lose. I will stick to riding eating better food and core training


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## Tin Pot (17 Jul 2015)

Drago said:


> The chicks dig a big, but firm and shapely butt on a man.



Few men here seem to be concerned with passing on their genes.

Thankfully.


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## nickyboy (17 Jul 2015)

This topic comes up again and again so obviously there is a fairly fundamental misunderstanding as regards what's needed to become a faster cyclist.

When you're cycling up a hill, it's very similar to climbing up a flight of stairs. The forces involved, the repetitive nature, the "rpm" are quite similar. Pretty well everyone can climb a flight of stairs with their current muscles. Pretty well everyone can climb a flight of stairs at, say, 80 stairs per minute. But climbing 20 flights of stairs at that pace? That's hard to do.

But the question is why is it hard to do? It is nothing to do with how strong you are. You've already shown you're strong enough by being able to climb one flight. Of course you get out of breath and the legs start to burn with lactic acid build up. That's your cardio vascular system limiting how quickly you can climb 20 flights of stairs. Exactly the same cycling up a hill. So if you want to climb 20 flights of stairs more quickly or cycle up a hill more quickly, your cardio vascular system is what's holding you back


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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

nickyboy said:


> This topic comes up again and again so obviously there is a fairly fundamental misunderstanding as regards what's needed to become a faster cyclist.
> 
> When you're cycling up a hill, it's very similar to climbing up a flight of stairs. The forces involved, the repetitive nature, the "rpm" are quite similar. Pretty well everyone can climb a flight of stairs with their current muscles. Pretty well everyone can climb a flight of stairs at, say, 80 stairs per minute. But climbing 20 flights of stairs at that pace? That's hard to do.
> 
> But the question is why is it hard to do? It is nothing to do with how strong you are. You've already shown you're strong enough by being able to climb one flight. Of course you get out of breath and the legs start to burn with lactic acid build up. That's your cardio vascular system limiting how quickly you can climb 20 flights of stairs. Exactly the same cycling up a hill. So if you want to climb 20 flights of stairs more quickly or cycle up a hill more quickly, your cardio vascular system is what's holding you back




Broadly yes, but with bikes your have the added complexity of gears. In theory, more power allows a higher gear which allows you to get up the hill faster than someone else at the same cadence but in a lower gear.


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## vickster (17 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Broadly yes, but with bikes your have the added complexity of gears. In theory, more power allows a higher gear which allows you to get up the hill faster than someone else at the same cadence but in a lower gear.


Unless you ride fixed/SS


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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

vickster said:


> Unless you ride fixed/SS



In my limited experience of fixed/ss and proper hills1 (I am a coward) then strength is even more important as you don't have gearing to get you out of trouble. 

1. Definition of 'proper hill' for a Milkfloat is 2% over a distance greater than 50m


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## vickster (17 Jul 2015)

Oh yes, hills + SS = all legs!!


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Broadly yes, but with bikes your have the added complexity of gears. In theory, more power allows a higher gear which allows you to get up the hill faster than someone else at the same cadence but in a lower gear.



Where do you think the power comes from?


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> In my limited experience of fixed/ss and proper hills1 (I am a coward) then strength is even more important as you don't have gearing to get you out of trouble.
> 
> 1. Definition of 'proper hill' for a Milkfloat is 2% over a distance greater than 50m



Strength is not a limiter on a bicycle - the number of gears is irrelevant.


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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Where do you think the power comes from?



From doing squats!


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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Strength is not a limiter on a bicycle - the number of gears is irrelevant.



Fine, then you won't mind demonstrating this by climbing a decent hill in a very high gear, ideally with a good cadence. Of course it is a limiter, it may not be the most important limiter, but it is still a limiter. Obviously a balance is required for optimum performance.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Fine, then you won't mind demonstrating this by climbing a decent hill in a very high gear, ideally with a good cadence. Of course it is a limiter, it may not be the most important limiter, but it is still a limiter. Obviously a balance is required for optimum performance.



Optimum power comes from pedalling an optimum gear at an optimum cadence. Riding a single speed with an unreasonable gear up a steep hill would simply require a higher amount of power - not a higher amount of strength. I don't think you understand the difference.

This article by Coggan is well worth reading, if you can stay with it:

http://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hints/why-we-dont-use-strength-endurance-anymore


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## Cuchilo (17 Jul 2015)

From what I understand getting fast is the ability to get enough oxygen into your system to sustain the effort . Yes you need food and muscles but you have reserves of those . Not enough oxygen and you are going nowhere very very fast .
So you need to train yourself at breathing rather than squatting . The best way to do that is to hit the hills ! Or rampant sex .


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Squats and leg presses= improved climbing.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

At least it's working for me....


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> At least it's working for me....



How about explaining your training regime - and outline how using weights in the gym has improved your sustainable power, aerobic capacity and/or strength to weight ratio. Or do you suffer from a diagnosed physiological weakness for which weights have been prescribed? I'm sure we'd all be interested. I certainly would.


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## screenman (17 Jul 2015)

Surely if you can turn a gear 10 times before caving then strength is not the problem.

Best strengths training for riding a bike is riding a bike, some guys use over gearing, I like my knee' s to much to over do that one.


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## uclown2002 (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Squats and leg presses= improved climbing.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> How about explaining your training regime - and outline how using weights in the gym has improved your sustainable power, aerobic capacity and/or strength to weight ratio. Or do you suffer from a diagnosed physiological weakness for which weights have been prescribed? I'm sure we'd all be interested. I certainly would.



Give it a rest.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

uclown2002 said:


>



And you.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Give it a rest.



No. You make a remarkable statement like that in a discussion about strength training - and then decline to explain it. In that case, I can only assume you must be trolling.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> No. You make a remarkable statement like that in a discussion about strength training - and then decline to explain it. In that case, I can only assume you must be trolling.



Hows about thees.

I'm >110kg.

I've been pressing and squatting >110kg more like 160 kg + for the last few weeks and check it out! I'm going faster up hills!
Thats on top of riding for the last 30 years and racing for the last 15.

Reckon.

Now if you dont mind it's friday night I'm trying to get pissed.


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## Cuchilo (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Squats and leg presses= improved climbing.


While they may keep your over all fitness level up and of course that helps it may not be the best training for cycling . I looked into jogging for training for my TT's and was told it was pointless as they are not the same muscle group to build up my legs . Breathing wise I think jogging would benefit my cycling but I'm happy with thinking its pointless 
Since I have started TT's I have ridden a lot less than I used too . The rides I do are mainly at flat out pace and my times have come down over 10 miles by about four minutes .
Riding less is due to work and its annoyed me but that's life . What it has done is shown me that with very little training but training aimed at your maximum effort works .
You can only do max effort if your body can get the oxygen you need to move the blood to the muscles .
That's my take on it anyway .


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Hows about thees.
> 
> I'm >110kg.
> 
> ...



What sort of improvements are you seeing - and how are you measuring those improvements - and are the improvements consistent (ie not down to wind direction, etc)? I'm interested because your claim appears to contradict every piece of scientific research ever done on this topic.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> What sort of improvements are you seeing - and how are you measuring those improvements? I'm interested because your claim appears to contradict every piece of scientific research ever done on this topic.



Does it? Ask Chris Hoy.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> What sort of improvements are you seeing - and how are you measuring those improvements - and are the improvements consistent (ie not down to wind direction, etc)? I'm interested because your claim appears to contradict every piece of scientific research ever done on this topic.


Show me some papers.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Does it? Ask Chris Hoy.



Or maybe ask Romain Bardet? Anyway, the discussion is about endurance cycling - not track sprinting? Sir Chris ain't that quick up hills.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Or maybe ask Romain Bardet? Anyway, the discussion is about endurance cycling - not track sprinting? Sir Chris ain't that quick up hills.


Just give your fingers a rest and try it. Youve got the rest of your life in front of you.


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## screenman (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Does it? Ask Chris Hoy.



Did he win a hill climb championship?


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

screenman said:


> Did he win a hill climb championship?


Did you? Will you?


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Show me some papers.



I posted this on the other thread. Here's an overview of a few of them here: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern 

I also posted another link on the previous page. There's loads more.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> I posted this on the other thread. Here's an overview of a few of them here: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern


well you stick to that then.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> well you stick to that then.



So you are trolling then. You asked me to post links to some papers, so I did. Sorry if you didn't like the link. Is Failsworth a real place - or is it there just for irony?


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> So you are trolling then. You asked me to post links to some papers, so I did. Sorry if you didn't like the link.


What I'm saying is im normal, i bet you're normal. Try weights. 

Thank me later.


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## screenman (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Did you? Will you?



Came third in the club hill climb champs 20 years ago, does that count.

What type of hills have you improved on?


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

screenman said:


> Came third in the club hill climb champs 20 years ago, does that count.
> 
> What type of hills have you improved on?



Fair point. Most of Saddleworth.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Vague anecdote beats science - every time


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

Just bloody try weights!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (17 Jul 2015)




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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Optimum power comes from pedalling an optimum gear at an optimum cadence. Riding a single speed with an unreasonable gear up a steep hill would simply require a higher amount of power - not a higher amount of strength. I don't think you understand the difference.
> 
> This article by Coggan is well worth reading, if you can stay with it:
> 
> http://www.aboc.com.au/tips-and-hints/why-we-dont-use-strength-endurance-anymore



Nice article, but irrelevant to the point I am making.

Here is what I wrote 'Broadly yes, but with bikes your have the added complexity of gears. In theory, more power allows a higher gear which allows you to get up the hill faster than someone else at the same cadence but in a lower gear.'

Take two theoretical cyclists, both pedalling up a very steep hill at the same cadence. One is pedalling in 50/11 the other 34/32. Who will get there first? Now granted, if there were any cyclists who had the power to get up in 50/11 then they be very unlikely to have any endurance left to continue. In my perfect scenario the cyclist has huge power AND and incredible cardiovascular system.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Just bloody try weights! You will turn bigger gears!


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## screenman (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Just bloody try weights!



I have done often, unfortunately I did not have the same results as you have. I have found that improving my cardiovascular system makes far more improvement for me.


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## nickyboy (17 Jul 2015)

dan_bo said:


> Hows about thees.
> 
> I'm >110kg.
> 
> ...



I reckon you've been laying off the chips for the last few weeks, that's the real reason

Quality trolling BTW


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## poynedexter (17 Jul 2015)

the answer lies in the "power" you can sustain. i can do intervals at 400 watts, but i can only sustain 280 watts for an hour. this is the threshold that i need to work on.

if you are tired because you are at 50 miles and not used to it (ie not fit enough) then squats arent going to help. you have to train for your event be that a social club run, sportive or race. most cycling events take place over a long distance and its this endurance you should focus on. if there are hills during your ride the key to getting over them well is arriving as fresh as you can, finding your tempo and recovering quickly. if you go into the red on a hill, its because your lactate is not getting recycled quick enough, your heart is out of control and you cardio system cant keep up with the dream. dont chase others up hills unless its a race. dont burn your matches.

start by riding hills, find a tempo that is hard but you can sustain. ride hills. ride flat. ride easy miles often and hard miles sometimes. rest and eat well.

keep the squats for something different in the winter just to mix it up a bit.


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## dan_bo (17 Jul 2015)

screenman said:


> I have done often, unfortunately I did not have the same results as you have. I have found that improving my cardiovascular system makes far more improvement for me.


Fair play.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Take two theoretical cyclists, both pedalling up a very steep hill at the same cadence. One is pedalling in 50/11 the other 34/32. Who will get there first? Now granted, if there were any cyclists who had the power to get up in 50/11 then they be very unlikely to have any endurance left to continue. In my perfect scenario the cyclist has huge power AND and incredible cardiovascular system.



He will only have huge power because of his incredible CV system. One cannot exist without the other. You are still confusing strength and power.


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## ayceejay (17 Jul 2015)

This is me *The Voice of Reason* 
Squats could improve cardio vascular efficiency
Squats could also improve core strength
Squats could improve muscular elasticity and their ability to transport oxygen
Squats could improve a persons confidence
Could any of this improve speed and endurance on a bike ?


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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> He will only have huge power because of his incredible CV system. One cannot exist without the other. You are still confusing strength and power.



So you are saying Mo Farah could ride up my steep hill in 50/11? Of course he could not, he does not have the power/strength.


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## screenman (17 Jul 2015)

I seem to be missing any information about Froomie doing squats. Please lead me to some.


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## uclown2002 (17 Jul 2015)




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## screenman (17 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> This is me *The Voice of Reason*
> Squats could improve cardio vascular efficiency
> Squats could also improve core strength
> Squats could improve muscular elasticity and their ability to transport oxygen
> ...




Yes.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> So you are saying Mo Farah could ride up my steep hill in 50/11? Of course he could not, he does not have the power/strength.



Farah is a runner, not a cyclist. Before you do anything else, go away and google the definitions of 'power' and 'strength' or this will go nowhere. Having said that, many pro cyclists have the same build as Farah (google some pics of Michael Rasmussen or the aforementioned Romain Bardet - who placed 3rd on stage 12) and yet they still manage to get up them thar hills. They do that because they have high levels of sustainable power - not strength. Like I said - go and learn the difference.

I'm pretty sure my legs are stronger than Bardet's - so why can't I go up hills as quickly as him?


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## Milkfloat (17 Jul 2015)

I am fully aware of the difference between power and strength - in fact I am not arguing with you on that. I also fully agree that spending more time in the gym and less on the bike is a bad thing. However what I am trying to say is that my perfect athlete would have the amazing cardiovascular system allowing power, but with strength to turn the impossibly high gear at the same cadence as the athlete who has amazing the same amazing cardio and power (speed strength) but without the strength (raw power) to be able to physically turn the cranks. Obviously everything I have been trying to say is theoretical, you cannot have that perfect combination, it is always a trade off, where in fact speed strength is more important.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

You say you understand the difference between strength and power - but you have just demonstrated that you do not, sorry.


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## potsy (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> I'm pretty sure my legs are stronger than Bardet's - so why can't I go up hills as quickly as him?


Maybe if you upgraded your wheels?


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## ayceejay (17 Jul 2015)

I'm pretty sure my legs are stronger than Bardet's - so why can't I go up hills as quickly as him?

This is not a serious question is it?

My friend Jowwy didn't like my comment on a recent thread about TT expressions but look at the determination in his face and you will see an element that is neither physical power nor physical strength but something other. If eating 15 bananas or a silly helmet or squats or a will to do better makes the difference for you then it will make a difference for you.


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## nickyboy (17 Jul 2015)

Time for a song............


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BRv9wGf5pk


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> I'm pretty sure my legs are stronger than Bardet's - so why can't I go up hills as quickly as him?
> 
> This is not a serious question is it?
> 
> My friend Jowwy didn't like my comment on a recent thread about TT expressions but look at the determination in his face and you will see an element that is neither physical power nor physical strength but something other. If eating 15 bananas or a silly helmet or squats or a will to do better makes the difference for you then it will make a difference for you.



No, of course it wasn't a serious question. Just to be clear though, I thought this was a thread where discussions were based on actual evidence, not on _"well, it works for me"_ faith-based arguments. I'm sure there are people who think that praying twice a day gets them up hills faster - but the actual evidence for that is going to be scarce...


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## Hacienda71 (17 Jul 2015)

The inner chimp comes to mind at this point.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Hacienda71 said:


> The inner chimp comes to mind at this point.



Does he do squats?


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## Hacienda71 (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Does he do squats?


Only if you let him.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

Best not then..


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## ayceejay (17 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> No, of course it wasn't a serious question. Just to be clear though, I thought this was a thread where discussions were based on actual evidence, not on _"well, it works for me"_ faith-based arguments. I'm sure there are people who think that praying twice a day gets them up hills faster - but the actual evidence for that is going to be scarce...



Then there is a clear line between what one can do and what one can train ones self or believe oneself is capable of and this is where we part ways because these are the qualities that seem to transcend the science those, you know, faith based arguments.


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> Then there is a clear line between what one can do and what one can train ones self or believe oneself is capable of and this is where we part ways because these are the qualities that seem to transcend the science those, you know, faith based arguments.



Like I said earlier - anecdote trumps fact on these forums every time. So you'll be in good company...


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## ayceejay (17 Jul 2015)

You can't do that Citius because that anecdote defeats your own argument. There is no way you can disprove that the determination of Jowwy (a mental quality) or the reason a less powerful person than you can climb faster transcends the science. A one legged man running across a continent and so on and where does this justify squats?


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## vickster (17 Jul 2015)

I can't do a squat at all with or without weights due to my ridiculously short tight calves  but I can ride a bike  which I'd much rather be doing instead of trying to do squats


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## Citius (17 Jul 2015)

ayceejay said:


> You can't do that Citius because that anecdote defeats your own argument. There is no way you can disprove that the determination of Jowwy (a mental quality) or the reason a less powerful person than you can climb faster transcends the science. A one legged man running across a continent and so on and where does this justify squats?



Let's not discuss Jowwy - but you have misunderstood the other part of what I said.

I didn't say I had more power that Bardet. I said I probably had more 'strength'. It's quite possible that you do, too The reason for this ought to be clear. He undoubtedly has more power though - which was my point. That's not a belief - it's a fact. Just in case there is any confusion here - I am arguing _against_ squats.


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## Milkfloat (18 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> You say you understand the difference between strength and power - but you have just demonstrated that you do not, sorry.



Maybe you can explain how it is physically possible to turn that huge gear up the very steep hill then. I don't think even the pure weight of the cyclist all on one pedal would be enough to turn the crank. Obviously everything I am talking about is theoretical, as the cyclist will just pick an easier gear, but it seems completely reasonable to me that the theoretical cyclist that can physically turn a higher gear at the same cadence as another cyclist will move the bike further with each turn and will therefore in the same number of turns of the cranks get there faster.


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## Cuchilo (18 Jul 2015)

My brain hurts .


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## Nigel-YZ1 (18 Jul 2015)

Best improvement I had was using a cross trainer. I've only done squats as part of physio to help correct kneecap tracking and build strength.
If I was training up now I'd choose the cross trainer.
In the end I just ride the bike.

No science. Just an opinion


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## Incontinentia Buttocks (18 Jul 2015)

A quote from Chris Froone;

I train on the bike and I get into the gym five times a week, mainly to work on my core stability, leg strength, and some back work. A lot of squats and lunges, no heavy weights – more about building strength than muscle. We also weave some yoga postures into our stretching.


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## Citius (18 Jul 2015)

Milkfloat said:


> Maybe you can explain how it is physically possible to turn that huge gear up the very steep hill then. I don't think even the pure weight of the cyclist all on one pedal would be enough to turn the crank.



Your physics needs some revision. It is not physically possible to apply a force higher than your own bodyweight, unsupported, against a moving object (ie a pedal). This is why a leg press machine looks the way it does. If it didn't have a back rest, the person trying to push the weight would just propel themselves in the opposite direction instead. So the notion of having greater leg stength in order to do this is totally irrelevant. Newton pretty much nailed this point with his Third Law of Motion.



Milkfloat said:


> Obviously everything I am talking about is theoretical, as the cyclist will just pick an easier gear, but it seems completely reasonable to me that the theoretical cyclist that can physically turn a higher gear at the same cadence as another cyclist will move the bike further with each turn and will therefore in the same number of turns of the cranks get there faster.



Repeated application of the same force (whatever force) is not reliant on the application of strength - it is reliant on the production of power. Unless of course the theoretical rider only plans on turning the pedals for one revolution. If he wants to do it more than once, it becomes a power equation, not a strength equation. If only you would go and learn the difference, we wouldn't need to have this absurd discussion.


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## Citius (18 Jul 2015)

Incontinentia Buttocks said:


> A quote from Chris Froone;
> 
> I train on the bike and I get into the gym five times a week, mainly to work on my core stability, leg strength, and some back work. A lot of squats and lunges, no heavy weights – more about building strength than muscle. We also weave some yoga postures into our stretching.



Lots of pros spend time in the gym, for all kinds of reasons. Without knowing the purpose of this training, or the weights he is pushing, we don't even know if that qualifies as 'strength' work. My guess it probably doesn't. Do Froome's legs look 'strong' to you?


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## Incontinentia Buttocks (18 Jul 2015)

Citius said:


> Lots of pros spend time in the gym, for all kinds of reasons. Without knowing the purpose of this training, or the weights he is pushing, we don't even know if that qualifies as 'strength' work. My guess it probably doesn't. Do Froome's legs look 'strong' to you?


 
My point is that Froome isn't squatting huge weights, he appears to do squats as part of his core conditioning. He then gets on his bike and rides lots and lots.


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## Citius (18 Jul 2015)

Incontinentia Buttocks said:


> My point is that Froome isn't squatting huge weights, he appears to do squats as part of his core conditioning. He then gets on his bike and rides lots and lots.



So that's not strength work then. You can find quotes on the internet for almost anything.

A quote from Mark Cavendish:
I don’t do gym work. Not at all. I do bit of strength work with core stability, but not weights, otherwise I’d bulk up.


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## Incontinentia Buttocks (18 Jul 2015)

I was using Froomes quote to support your argument.


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## Citius (18 Jul 2015)

Incontinentia Buttocks said:


> I was using Froomes quote to support your argument.



ok - so we must be in agreement 

Ironically though, there are also quotes from Cavendish which state that he _does_ do gym work. That's why it's always a better idea just to stick to the science and the facts.


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## Cuchilo (18 Jul 2015)

Just to add to this . I went and did a few hills today and to my surprise they where all a doddle  As I said earlier in the thread , I have not been riding as much as I used too but the riding I have been doing is pretty much all at max effort in TT's or training at max effort but not for lots of miles as I've not had the time .
To me this shows that getting the breathing right to give a maximum effort for longer is probably the best training you can do . Its a shame I haven't had the time to get the riding part in as I could have been so much better this season .


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## Drago (18 Jul 2015)

Cuchilo said:


> My brain hurts .


Some squats will cure that.


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## ayceejay (19 Jul 2015)

A bit off topic I guess but I just remembered this, purely anecdotal I'm afraid.
A frequent visitor to my LBS was Sean Yates, he was on the cusp of turning pro. Sean would do press ups, lots of press ups and ride his bike a lot as well as his full time job landscaping. The story goes that when he turned pro he had the widest shoulders in the peleton and the director of the Motorola team ordered him to stop doing the press ups.


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## Drago (20 Jul 2015)

I'd have told the director of the team to get bent. I don't care if it would cure world hunger and end all wars, there's no way I'd want the upper body of a pro roadie.


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## ayceejay (20 Jul 2015)

unless you were a pro roadie like Sean eh?


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## Drago (20 Jul 2015)

Even then...no. Not being able to visit a beach without someone kicking sand in your face is a real ballache.


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## Citius (20 Jul 2015)

Conversely, I doubt if there's many pro roadies that would want _your_ upper body either...


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## Cuchilo (20 Jul 2015)

Or amateurs


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## Drago (20 Jul 2015)

Rubbish. They'd kill for moobs and saggy back fat like mine.


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## PhilDawson8270 (20 Jul 2015)

Squats are also good for increasing the strength of connecting tissue around the knees and the ankles (when done well), and could lead to reduced injury, especially at the distances covered by pros.

With regards to strength and power for those I think missing the point @Citius is making, Power is defined as the rate of work done. That is work/time

Strength could loosely be defined as as the work from the power equation. You can increase "power" by either doing work harder, or by doing work quicker.

So yes, technically, more strength COULD increase your power, but we all know the issues of a low cadence and the effects on the cardiovascular system. The most effective way to improve power cycling is to reduce the time it takes to do the work.

If there's anybody here that runs a power meter and cadence meter it is quite possible work out the exact amount of force put through the pedals, and you will be surprised at how little it is.


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## Citius (20 Jul 2015)

As I've said before, the average pedal forces while the pros are riding up a mountain is around 15-20kg per pedal stroke - a massively reduced number from the amount that can be squatted. Most untrained individuals could probably already squat in excess of their own bodyweight, and given that it is technically impossible to push more than your own bodyweight through the pedal stroke, the strength argument kind of fizzles out.

In gym terms, strength is generally defined as the amount you can push/squat/lift in 1x rep max.


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## PhilDawson8270 (20 Jul 2015)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> If there's anybody here that runs a power meter and cadence meter it is quite possible work out the exact amount of force put through the pedals, and you will be surprised at how little it is.



In fact, I'll give it a quick go as an example.

Using information from Stage 18 of the 2013 tdf available here http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...sis-stages-18-19-at-the-tour-de-france_296653 with over 4km of climbing on the stage.

Using Normalised power as the power

Power = 314W
Cadence = 82rpm
Crank Length = 172.5mm (No crank length data so we will just use this)

So Power = work/time

314W = work/time

To find the time we know the crank has radius 172.5 so has diameter 345mm Which has circumference pi*d which comes out to 1083.84mm, since this crank length is already an assumption, I'm quite happy to call this 1.1m for simplicity of calculation.

With a cadence of 82rpm it takes 0.73seconds per revolution

Rearrange power = work/time to work = Power*time

work = 314*0.73
= 229.22 Nm of torque

Which is 23.4 kg m Since 1m is quite close to our full revolution, half of that is what is put through 1 pedal.

So the best cyclists in the world, on a stage that involved much climbing were only putting 11.7 Kg through each pedal stroke.

The amount is tiny, in fact, the weight they put on the pedal is less than some bicycles weigh.

As you can clearly see, strength won't be a limiting factor, and squatting really won't help to get up those hills


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## Citius (20 Jul 2015)

Great post Phil - it deserves more than one 'like'..


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## PhilDawson8270 (20 Jul 2015)

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/toolbox/power-output-and-cadence-learning-from-the-pros/#.VazZn9xViko

That source suggests during large climbs, cadence drops to 71rpm and power stays at 311. So I'd expect the "strength" on this to be higher due to same power and lower cadence.

71rpm is 0.84s per revolution

work = 311*0.84 = 261.24 Nm or 13.31 Kg per leg

So it the pros are only using a little extra power to get up the hills, the difference isn't a massive amount.


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## bozmandb9 (6 Aug 2015)

Citius said:


> Lots of pros spend time in the gym, for all kinds of reasons. Without knowing the purpose of this training, or the weights he is pushing, we don't even know if that qualifies as 'strength' work. My guess it probably doesn't. Do Froome's legs look 'strong' to you?



Have you ever considered a career in politics? ;-)


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## bozmandb9 (6 Aug 2015)

Youl


Citius said:


> ok - so we must be in agreement
> 
> Ironically though, there are also quotes from Cavendish which state that he _does_ do gym work. That's why it's always a better idea just to stick to the science and the facts.



You'll usually find plenty of science to support whatever hypothesis you wish to prove. Then you have to argue 'my science is better than yours'. 

What if you're both right? Six (is it 7 now) billion people on the planet. Perhaps there are no absolutes in what is 'better' when it comes to the human body.


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## Citius (6 Aug 2015)

Sorry, I've no idea what you're talking about. If you think there is anything we've missed in this thread, then feel free to post it.


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## Andywinds (7 Aug 2015)

This is a subject that I am interested in. From what I know squats, lunges, and Hungarian squats etc are used by anyone requiring explosive strength for a short while. These are MTB'ers who require the need to product high power during a race segment and sprint cyclists. Surely climbing is just extreme cardio? can't see that heavy squats involving fast tqitch muscles do much for big hill climbs when they are knackered so quickly!


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## Joshua Plumtree (9 Aug 2015)

Squats will make you a better squatter. 
Cycling will make you a better cyclist. . 
Although I do generalise a little!


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## ayceejay (9 Aug 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Squats will make you a better squatter.
> Cycling will make you a better cyclist. .
> Although I do generalise a little!


Methinks you are missing the nuance.


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## Joshua Plumtree (10 Aug 2015)

ayceejay said:


> Methinks you are missing the nuance.



I'll try to remember that the next time I'm red in the face with a l50 pound barbell slung across me shoulders!


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## Drago (10 Aug 2015)

Try it with 260kg across the shoulders!


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## Cuchilo (10 Aug 2015)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Squats will make you a better squatter.
> Cycling will make you a better cyclist. .
> Although I do generalise a little!


its a shame driving a car doesn't make many people a better driver .


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2015)

just had the same debate on our clubs fb page - 

just to say i am in the " squats are not needed camp"


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## blazed (10 Aug 2015)

jowwy said:


> just had the same debate on our clubs fb page -
> 
> just to say i am in the " squats are not needed camp"



I'm not surprised.


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## jowwy (10 Aug 2015)

blazed said:


> I'm not surprised.


well done on the stereo typical response towards a BIG GUY


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## Andywinds (12 Aug 2015)

Is this what you can squat?



Drago said:


> Try it with 260kg across the shoulders!


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## vickster (12 Aug 2015)

With Drago, that's probably each shoulder


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## Drago (12 Aug 2015)

Andywinds said:


> Is this what you can squat?



Its not my record, but what I managed the other day. Almost 2.5 times my own lard, I mean weight.


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## Joshua Plumtree (12 Aug 2015)

Drago said:


> Its not my record, but what I managed the other day. Almost 2.5 times my own lard, I mean weight.



So are you living proof that squats are indeed useless for cycling?


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## Drago (12 Aug 2015)

Indeed, but as a competing amateur power lifter I go way beyond the sensible limit. I can climb indefatigably, but carrying 70lbs of muscle mass I didn't have a decade ago pretty much negates any benefit, so in NET terms I'm probably about where I would be if I didn't lift at all.

I'm certainly not fast, even on the flat, though it is gratifying that my Strava times are very competitive to those of my associates who are a similar size/weight, many of whom are quite a bit younger.

Still, its worth it to not look like Mr Bean in lycra.


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## Andywinds (12 Aug 2015)

That's really impressive, it puts my max record of 140kg to shame!



Drago said:


> Its not my record, but what I managed the other day. Almost 2.5 times my own lard, I mean weight.


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## Drago (13 Aug 2015)

Considering I'm within a fraction the same height, weight and chest as big Dolph when he played Ivan Drago (hence my nickname at work) id rather hope for better, but I am heading downhill for 50 and did suffer a heart attack in February, so I'm happy enough.


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## Andywinds (13 Aug 2015)

Sorry to hear about your heart attack. What other big lifts have you got, i.e. dead lift and bench? Did you ever do clean and jerks?



Drago said:


> Considering I'm within a fraction the same height, weight and chest as big Dolph when he played Ivan Drago (hence my nickname at work) id rather hope for better, but I am heading downhill for 50 and did suffer a heart attack in February, so I'm happy enough.


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