# Autism and Aspergers Syndrome



## Heltor Chasca (24 Mar 2018)

I am 44. When I was a kid, there were two people I knew who had Aspergers Syndrome.

Now it seems fairly common and almost the norm. Our mainstream primary school has a fair number of pupils with either autism or Aspergers Syndrome. A couple of friends have lovely kids with either too. 

Is there an increase or have diagnostic techniques improved?


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## midlife (24 Mar 2018)

It's really a broad spectrum and not a neatly packaged syndrome.... About 1 in 50 currently ?


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## MikeG (24 Mar 2018)

No increase, it's just that people now recognise the range of behaviours/ symptoms. My eldest daughter has Aspergers. As you note, they're usually lovely kids, and often very high achievers.


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## DCLane (24 Mar 2018)

+1 to @MikeG's comment - it's about recognition more than anything else. My eldest was diagnosed with Asperger's at 16 - just having an understanding of why he thinks the way he does has helped him.

We're all on the spectrum somewhere. Those diagnosed simply are further along the scale ...


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## PK99 (24 Mar 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I am 44. When I was a kid, there were two people I knew who had Aspergers Syndrome.
> 
> Now it seems fairly common and almost the norm. Our mainstream primary school has a fair number of pupils with either autism or Aspergers Syndrome. A couple of friends have lovely kids with either too.
> 
> Is there an increase or have diagnostic techniques improved?



The school of which I was parent governor 15 or so years ago - solid leafy suburban middle-class area - had a disproportionately high SEN % compared to other schools in the borough, many in less favorable areas. Fellow governors and I had a strong suspicion that the high % was a means for the head teacher to justify employing her friend as part-time SEN support teacher. The replacement head concurred and the SEN support hours were significantly reduced.

More recently, I have been reading reports suggesting that Autism/Aspergers/ADHD are in some cases being used to excuse poor parenting especially in families with two full time working parents and also that High Functioning Autism is seen as a "badge of honour" by some parents.

On the other hand, I have friends who do have truly Aspergers kids. One in particular, showed many of the classic obsessive traits from a very early age, and later needed much coaching for exams, because he simply did not see the need to write down things he thought were so obvious everyone must know them. After graduating with a decent degree, he is now an EFL teacher in Japan.


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## Drago (24 Mar 2018)

I was diagnosed as being on the ASD spectrum at 48. Its not a big deal, I'm not Rain Man or owt like that, but it does explain a few things, and the counselling gives me mechanisms to try and head off some of the least desirable aspects.


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## Bazzer (24 Mar 2018)

I think diagnostic techniques have improved, which IMHO is a good thing as people with it see the world differently. One of our daughters falls within the ASD spectrum, but I outscored her when my my wife, who was a SENCO for 25 years ran some tests. My school career should have been very different to what it was.


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## Easytigers (24 Mar 2018)

Both of my kids have their own unique needs :-) my wife and I both both joke about them inheriting it from the ‘other’ family’s gene pool...but we’re both quirky in our own ways! However, just glad that we have beautiful children that we love to bits (although I’m sure that they annoy the crap out of other people all of the time!)


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## Slick (24 Mar 2018)

I think there is a programme on later this week that suggests were all probably on the spectrum to some degree. 

A guy at work told me last week that his son had this and he loves the football but had to stop as his son couldn't handle the noise. My team, Glasgow Rangers now have a sensory room to allow access to all fans. First in Scotland I believe, so kudos for that.


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## jefmcg (25 Mar 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I am 44. When I was a kid, there were two people I knew who had Aspergers Syndrome.


I don't think there were. Wikipedia says the the diagnosis for Aspergers only became standardised in the 1990, which matches my hazy recollection.

I would assume they had autism. Someone who would today be non-controversially diagnosed as Aspergers would have been regarded as neurologically normal back in the 70s or 80s. That would explain a lot of the increase as you would be comparing strict and severe autism diagnoses when you were are a kid with broader "spectrum" diagnosis .now (as well as over diagnosis mentioned above)

I've worked with a few, I think - IT - never diagnosed, as far as I know. They are happy, productive members of society, if a bit annoying. I don't think they missed out because they were not identified. However, that does not mean that there were not others who were at a disadvantage by receiving no special help, and were not able to carve a place in society. I would never have worked with them.


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## User10119 (25 Mar 2018)

As I recently said elsewhere on here,
[QUOTE 5157136, member: 10119"]I imagine that most of the not neuro-typical bods you probably encounter day to day are the people who have found the strategies that allow them to get along with their lives in that environment. There will be others for whom those environments are too disabling, but you'll probably not see them.[/QUOTE]
My eldest wouldn't have been diagnosed with autism 20 years ago. He would still have been autistic.


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## User10119 (25 Mar 2018)

PK99 said:


> The school of which I was parent governor 15 or so years ago - solid leafy suburban middle-class area - had a disproportionately high SEN % compared to other schools in the borough, many in less favorable areas.


I'm not aware of socio-economic deprivation being a causative factor in ASC. I suspect it _is_ quite commonly quite the opposite in the _diagnosis_ of ASC - middle class entitled parents are in my experience FAR more effective at squeaky-wheeling until their child's barriers to learning are identified and their child's additional needs are met. I also know of several very lovely leafy schools who have surprisingly high percentages of children with SEN; some mainstream schools are just a bit better at handling SEND and so get a reputation for that which means that more parents whose children have SEND choose that school which means the school has to deal with more SEND and get better at it and their reputation spreads and so a virtuous circle starts... 


> More recently, I have been reading reports suggesting that Autism/Aspergers/ADHD are in some cases being used to excuse poor parenting especially in families with two full time working parents and also that High Functioning Autism is seen as a "badge of honour" by some parents.


Any clues as to where said "reports" can be found?


> On the other hand, I have friends who do have truly Aspergers kids


Care to share on what basis you're qualified to make the judgement as which kids 'truly' have ASC and which don't?


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## User10119 (27 Mar 2018)

[QUOTE 5193278, member: 10119"]Any clues as to where said "reports" can be found?[/QUOTE]

@PK99 - I'm still wondering if there is a source you'd care to share for the 'information' about SEND diagnosis being used as an excuse for poor parenting/working parents etc?


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## PK99 (27 Mar 2018)

[QUOTE 5194601, member: 10119"]@PK99 - I'm still wondering if there is a source you'd care to share for the 'information' about SEND diagnosis being used as an excuse for poor parenting/working parents etc?[/QUOTE]

Try this for one:

“Autism in all its degrees has been much more recognised today than it used to be and there is a lot of work being done with kids day to day, but it is vastly over-diagnosed. In some cases, it’s a sort of middle-class parents’ way out of having to accept any of the responsibility for what their kid is like. It’s almost a badge of honour, people carry it around like a handbag.”

Shooter, a former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists (the first specialist in children and adolescents to hold the post), says that some parents like a diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome (a condition on the autism spectrum) because many of those with the developmental disability have high cognitive function or intense interests. “It’s something you can boast about: ‘My kid’s got Asperger’s.’ ‘Oh yes, I read something about that. I think one of my kids might have had a touch of Asperger’s.’ It becomes a bit of kudos.”



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/autism-is-vastly-overdiagnosed-its-the-parentswayout-xzwlg2wsx


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## User10119 (27 Mar 2018)

PK99 said:


> Try this for one:
> 
> “Autism in all its degrees has been much more recognised today than it used to be and there is a lot of work being done with kids day to day, but it is vastly over-diagnosed. In some cases, it’s a sort of middle-class parents’ way out of having to accept any of the responsibility for what their kid is like. It’s almost a badge of honour, people carry it around like a handbag.”
> 
> ...



Which appears to be paywalled. He seems to have said the same thing, or similar things, in the daily fail tho http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5370241/Parents-want-children-labelled-autistic.html

Which has been disputed by at least one of his Royal College colleagues here https://www.mentalhealthtoday.co.uk...in-the-uk-says-royal-college-of-psychiatrists including the comment that


> *But does this hold true in the UK?*
> On the whole, no.
> Fewer people are diagnosed than expected, given prevalence rates of such conditions. Rather than a UK epidemic of over-diagnosis, neurodevelopmental disorders are probably being under-diagnosed or are being under-recognised


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## User10119 (27 Mar 2018)

Interesting that Shooter was working in Gwent, to me at least. Some good friends of mine live in that neck of the woods, with two kids. One has ASC and personifies nicely the term 'diagnosed in Tesco aspie' - as in it is blindingly obvious - but it took years of their parents fighting to even get assessed followed by more years of battles to get a statement. Although when that finally got put on place it was for the practically unheard of 25 hours of 1-2-1. Said child, finally diagnosed and suitably supported, has flourished in secondary school - top results in year/school/county in some exams - after years of primary school misery with their parents being told that their child was just naughty and not as clever as they, with their aspirational middle class expectations, believed.

Their second child has no statement - because statements were no longer being awarded to any child - and they _definitely_ didn't have dyslexia, apparently, because no children were being diagnosed with the condition any more. My friends were told, once again, that the problem was their refusal to accept that their kid was just a bit thick which, having known said child their whole life, I know isn't true. Fortunately, their secondary school believes that the kid has genuine barriers to learning and act accordingly. Yes, it is only anecdata from one family but services in Gwent hardly seem to be a shining beacon of best practice to me..


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## Bazzer (27 Mar 2018)

[QUOTE 5194622, member: 10119"]Interesting that Shooter was working in Gwent, to me at least. Some good friends of mine live in that neck of the woods, with two kids. One has ASC and personifies nicely the term 'diagnosed in Tesco aspie' - as in it is blindingly obvious - but it took years of their parents fighting to even get assessed followed by more years of battles to get a statement. Although when that finally got put on place it was for the practically unheard of 25 hours of 1-2-1. Said child, finally diagnosed and suitably supported, has flourished in secondary school - top results in year/school/county in some exams - after years of primary school misery with their parents being told that their child was just naughty and not as clever as they, with their aspirational middle class expectations, believed.

Their second child has no statement - because statements were no longer being awarded to any child - and they _definitely_ didn't have dyslexia, apparently, because no children were being diagnosed with the condition any more. My friends were told, once again, that the problem was their refusal to accept that their kid was just a bit thick which, having known said child their whole life, I know isn't true. Fortunately, their secondary school believes that the kid has genuine barriers to learning and act accordingly. Yes, it is only anecdata from one family but services in Gwent hardly seem to be a shining beacon of best practice to me..[/QUOTE]

I think it is very much a mixed picture. A previous LA Mrs B worked for, was wholly behind identification of children with SEN. When she had to change LA because of my job, she moved to one where, shall we say, there was less enthusiasm. And was at one time, accused by the head of the school she was in at the time, of wanting to turn his secondary school into a special school because of her identification of children with SEN and the support she tried to get into place.


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## Turdus philomelos (27 Mar 2018)

Though no expert, I have worked in education for 15 years. What I have learnt is Asperger's presents differently in girls in comparison to boys. I am also led to believe that the testing is also different between sexes. Though this was not always the case and many girls were not diagnosed.

One year, a pupil who had went through 7 years of primary school turned up at first day at secondary with no cause for concerns. I observed straight something needed investigated further. They had their diagnoses a few months later.

One pupil I worked with was delighted with their diagnoses as it explained to them why they were _different_ to their peers.


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## MikeG (27 Mar 2018)

[QUOTE 5194622, member: 10119"].........didn't have dyslexia, apparently, because no children were being diagnosed with the condition any more..........[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. Gwent seems an interesting place, educationally. A bit of an outlier. My wife's primary school regularly assesses kids as having Asperger's and dyslexia.

Here's a new one........ODD. Oppositional Defiance Disorder.  Suspended 5 times in one term for hitting people (adults and children). The school keeps on giving him "one last chance", desperate that a 5 year old isn't tarnished by expulsion. Assigned individual adult supervision for the entire time he is on school premises at the school's expense (there is no LA money to cover it). Routinely refuses all commands and requests. For the first time in 30 years of teaching my wife has requested restraint training, for the safety of other kids in her class. The local authority has refused.


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## Drago (27 Mar 2018)

Behavioural problem, not a medical one. In my school, nearly 50 years back, there was the odd kid like that. The behaviour didn't last long into the school year.

Sorry to hear about Mrs @MikeG's predicament. Make sure she records dates, times, and names involved in each refusal, so when the kid does eventually hurt someone she doesn't get hung out to dry herself.

Mrs D is a special needs T/A, currently training to be a special needs teacher. She does one on one with a child, and she says its futile. The problems are perpetuated by the parents that entrench the behaviour for the 18 hours a day they're not at school.


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## Drago (27 Mar 2018)

ODD is a behavioural problem, not a medical one - in that regard, unlike those with ASD, they are just naughty kids.


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## User10119 (27 Mar 2018)

Turdus philomelos said:


> Though no expert, I have worked in education for 15 years. What I have learnt is Asperger's presents differently in girls in comparison to boys. I am also led to believe that the testing is also different between sexes. Though this was not always the case and many girls were not diagnosed.


*Typically* presents differently, I'd say. The EldestCub's ASC presentation would probably have been more what one would expect, classically, from a girl. The lack of some of the 'classic' markers for boys probably delayed identification. My pet theory is that we socialise girls and boys massively differently and train them to meet very different expectations about behaviour, communication and social skills so it makes sense that a condition that affects social skills and communication will present very differently.


> One pupil I worked with was delighted with their diagnoses as it explained to them why they were _different_ to their peers.


This, this, a thousand times times this!


MikeG said:


> Hmmm. Gwent seems an interesting place, educationally. A bit of an outlier. My wife's primary school regularly assesses kids as having Asperger's and dyslexia.


As do the schools my kids attend, and all the schools I work in. I thought it was interesting that the expert cited to support the theory that ASC is an excuse for poor parenting, and over-diagnosed, worked in a region where that seems to be less the case in my anecdotal experience.


MikeG said:


> For the first time in 30 years of teaching my wife has requested restraint training, for the safety of other kids in her class. The local authority has refused.


Surely staff CPD is agreed and paid for by the school, not the authority? Having said that round here the schools pay for it and the LA sometimes deliver it, and there can be a wait for there to be sufficient demand to make a course cost-effective/viable. Mind, she's lucky if she's not needed it before. I remember walking in to my son's reception class and realising that three separate teachers/TAs were actively in the process of using team teach techniques to restrain a child at that one moment, all on different children. It's no wonder my sweet, compliant (unless you made him paint/sit in a circle/sing/various other things), well-behaved, bright, funny little aspie flew under the radar for so long while being quietly rather sad and massively underachieving.


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## MikeG (27 Mar 2018)

Drago said:


> ODD is a behavioural problem, not a medical one - in that regard, unlike those with ASD, they are just naughty kids.



No, it's a medical problem with behavioural symptoms. He isn't just some wild child with weak parents. His 3 siblings are immaculately behaved and well balanced kids, apparently.


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## MikeG (27 Mar 2018)

[QUOTE 5194736, member: 10119"]*.......*Surely staff CPD is agreed and paid for by the school, not the authority? ........[/QUOTE]

The school is broke. It can't even afford supply teachers. They apparently asked the LA for help with restraint training, but were refused.


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## Heltor Chasca (27 Mar 2018)

MikeG said:


> The school is broke. It can't even afford supply teachers. They apparently asked the LA for help with restraint training, but were refused.



The schools funding crisis is dreadful. At my youngest’s school, they need to fundraise for just about anything including library books. Staff? Hah! Soon kids will have an app with a virtual teacher. 

Compare that to my oldest’s school (7 years difference) where they had the disposable to pay ME £3k to do various landscaping projects around the grounds.


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## MontyVeda (27 Mar 2018)

And old friend was recently diagnosed with Aspergers at the age of forty-ish... best thing that ever happened to him. It helped him understand his confidence issues and various other personal quirks, and ultimately stopped him trying to control his mind and mood with booze, which at the worst he was knocking back around 25 units a day.


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## lane (27 Mar 2018)

I am sure a lot go undiagnosed rather than being over diagnosed. This link on the BBC News website today provides some interesting stories from women who were only diagnosed late in life and what a difference the diagnosis has made to them. Given the chronic underfunding of children's mental health services I would imagine it is quite hard to get a diagnosis at all. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/women_late_diagnosis_autism


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## GuyBoden (27 Mar 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Soon kids will have an app with a virtual teacher.



Seriously, that sounds ideal for Kids on the Autistic spectrum.


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## MontyVeda (27 Mar 2018)

GuyBoden said:


> Seriously, that sounds ideal for Kids on the Autistic spectrum.


Homeschooling in rural America is very common, and they pretty much do have virtual teachers.


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## User10119 (27 Mar 2018)

MikeG said:


> The school is broke. It can't even afford supply teachers. They apparently asked the LA for help with restraint training, but were refused.


That's the nightmare of devolved funding. The SEN funds were allegedly devolved to the the schools along with the responsibility for SEN provision, without ring fencing, as part of the inclusion agenda although what we were told on the pgce 15 years ago was that the numbers didn't really stack up. The authority doesn't have the money either, and the centralised resources, facilities and expertise has been eviscerated.

I've seen so many amazing examples of mainstream inclusion working brilliantly, both for the individual with additional needs and for the school community that are a part of, but it is so often achieved at the expense of the well-being and work-life balance of committed classroom teachers - the Mrs G's of this world - with inadequate funding and insufficient resources and training, busting a gut to make it successful.


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## MikeG (27 Mar 2018)

It's not exactly like that in this particular instance, in that the funding was fine, even generous, until 12 or 18 months ago. I'm not a big follower of these things, but I believe there was a new funding formula developed then, and my wife's school appears to be one of those that didn't come out of it so well.


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## MikeG (27 Mar 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> Homeschooling in rural America is very common, and they pretty much do have virtual teachers.



Which brings with it a huge array of problems, including the persistence of Creationism, lack of social skills, absorption into cults, abuse of children going unseen, and so on. I think this an extremely unhealthy situation.


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## jefmcg (27 Mar 2018)

Home school is for a slew of reasons. A friend of mine was a distance education teacher, and her students included kids who had been excluded from school for various reasons, kids with depressed immune systems (eg cancer sufferers), kids working or otherwise away from home (actors and athletes mostly), kids that lived in remote places, kids who couldn't cope in the class room for various reasons and - yes - the Exclusive Brethren, a solidly wingnut religious group.

Notes

I say "kids" but it was high school, so mostly teenagers.
My friends had quit teaching in normal schools when she intervened when a boy grabbed a girls breasts, and the boy pulled a knife on her.


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## User10119 (27 Mar 2018)

MikeG said:


> It's not exactly like that in this particular instance, in that the funding was fine, even generous, until 12 or 18 months ago. I'm not a big follower of these things, but I believe there was a new funding formula developed then, and my wife's school appears to be one of those that didn't come out of it so well.



I don't _think_ the government's new national funding formula for schools generally has been fully implemented yet - that's a couple of years away. But school funding has been cut in real terms for a few years now. 
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....lish-schools-recycling-heads-justine-greening

There's also been a transition from children with additional needs being awarded Statements of Special Educational Need/LDAs at authority level and the use of of IEPs (individual education plans) at school.level towards the new system of MSPs (My Support Plan) which i think work at a school level and EHC Plans (Education, Health and Care Plans) which require LA assessment/involvement.


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## User33236 (27 Mar 2018)

I’m sure everyone sits somewhere on the scale and there are several online tests you can do to get an idea where you sit.

I've tried several and typically get an AQ of 34 or 35. Something like 28 to 31 is borderline with 80% going on to be confirmed. 

What difference does it make? Ain’t got a clue but life is going well and I don’t give a damn


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## MontyVeda (28 Mar 2018)

MikeG said:


> Which brings with it a huge array of problems, including the persistence of Creationism, lack of social skills, absorption into cults, abuse of children going unseen, and so on. I think this an extremely unhealthy situation.


You write for the Daily Wail and ICMFP


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## MikeG (28 Mar 2018)

MontyVeda said:


> You write for the Daily Wail



If you mean the Daily Fail, then I wouldn't even use it on my compost heap, let alone read it......and I use words with 3 syllables sometimes so I am disqualified from writing for it.



> and ICMFP



Had to Duckduckgo this. I'd never heard of the International Conference on Mathematical Fallacies and Paradoxes before, so I can confidently say no to that too.


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