# Which Ti Audax/Sportive bike



## Tombo 707 (22 Dec 2008)

I am looking at buying a Titanium bike and have been looking at the Sabbath September and the Condor Grand Fondo can someone give me some sound advice please.


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## Blonde (22 Dec 2008)

Eh? Haven't you also put this in the racing section? I did wonder why it was in racing and not audax, since it's about an audax bike though!


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## yello (22 Dec 2008)

Sorry, I have no advice to offer but I too would be interested in the responses.

Condor's got a good name but I didn't know they did a Ti bike. Can't argue with the prices on the Sabbath September, I've seen it £800 quid cheaper than a similar spec Gran Fondo.

http://www.cycle-world.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b85s359p7169

...that's a lot of bike for a decent price (can't comment on CycleWorld though!) and I'd be tempted.

Edit: just seen that that one is ex-demo! Though nice to see they had a demo bike available.


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## bonk man (22 Dec 2008)

I bought a Van Nicholas Amazon in the summer and it is splendid..... I have done a bit of Audax on it, it seems perfect for that, mostly doing off road rides on the hills on it and it really has been a brilliant bike for that as well. I don't know about sportives on it but I think it is worth 2 gears over the Mercian 531c I was previously using, it is faster up hill and on the flat.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (22 Dec 2008)

bonk man said:


> I bought a Van Nicholas Amazon in the summer and it is splendid..... I have done a bit of Audax on it, it seems perfect for that, mostly doing off road rides on the hills on it and it really has been a brilliant bike for that as well. I don't know about sportives on it but I think it is worth 2 gears over the Mercian 531c I was previously using, it is faster up hill and on the flat.



The Van Nicholas Amazon (shown below) is a good choice for Audax, plus it can take larger tyres and still have generous clearances, as such it is a popular model for those who want a multi role bike for use on tow path style hardpack tracks, this style of bike is also bought by those who want to take more luggage for touring.








If you are looking for something with more focus as a road/audax specific set up then their Yukon model shown below is also a very popular choice, this is a closer comparison to the Sabbath September and Condor Grand Fondo mentioned in the OP. Although these bikes can take a rear pannier rack generally they would not be used by those who potentially may want carry heavier loads, I use mine for fast day rides and 'light tours' , a bike I 'reviewed here' that may be of interest.







There are some others that make suitable Audax specific bikes with Titanium frames including 'Burls' , 'Enigma' and 'Xacd', the latter is a manufacturer that you deal with directly.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## Herlihy (22 Dec 2008)

A friend has just bought the Enigma Etape which he rates greatly. It would seem to fit your spec.


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## Noodley (22 Dec 2008)

I have a Van Nicholas Yukon which I use for events of 200km plus and/or hilly rides cos it has a triple chainset.


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## toontra (22 Dec 2008)

Noodley said:


> I have a Van Nicholas Yukon which I use for events of 200km plus and/or hilly rides cos it has a triple chainset.



As do I. 180 miles is the longest day ride so far. Fast enough for sportives, comfy enough for long audaxes.


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## yello (22 Dec 2008)

At the risk of being denounced as a heathen I reckon the Van Nicholas (all hail ) is pricey. I know it gets good reviews (emperor's new clothes??) but I personally would be looking to test ride it alongside the likes of the Sabbath and Enigma to see for myself.


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## Lardyboy (22 Dec 2008)

I've got a Sunday (Sabbath) Silk Road to ride in sportives. I wouldn't hesitate in recommending it, or any other Sabbath as they are now. Greg Roche couldn't of been more helpful, or patient!


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (23 Dec 2008)

yello said:


> At the risk of being denounced as a heathen I reckon the Van Nicholas (all hail ) is pricey. I know it gets good reviews (emperor's new clothes??) but I personally would be looking to test ride it alongside the likes of the Sabbath and Enigma to see for myself.



Of the three above:

Sabbath September Frame £899
Van Nicholas Yukon Frame €899, plus VAT is just over £1006.*
Enigma Etape Frame £1050 (their website states a 5-7.5% price increase after 31/12/08)

All prices taken from the website of each company today, in reality all are well made frames and set up to offer a similar ride, each would be ideal for Audax and long/fast day riding.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk

* I used an exchange rate of 1 Euro = 0.9736 to obtain the Sterling price then added 15% Vat; taken today from www.travelex.co.uk


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## Sully (27 Dec 2008)

Hi Im interested in attempting some Audax's in 2009 problem is I purchased a bike prior to me even thinking of entering an Audax so heres the big question du recon my bike ll be ok for anything upto a 100 mila I have a Wilier Triestina Thor with campagnolo groupset, and advice is greatly appreciated,
Craig


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (27 Dec 2008)

Sully said:


> Hi Im interested in attempting some Audax's in 2009 problem is I purchased a bike prior to me even thinking of entering an Audax so heres the big question du recon my bike ll be ok for anything upto a 100 mila I have a Wilier Triestina Thor with campagnolo groupset, and advice is greatly appreciated,
> Craig


For sure many would prefer something they can weatherproof more effectively, with lower overall gearing than a race bike, plus carry luggage, but to an extent a bike is a bike, providing you can cope with the gear ratios and the riding position then the Wilier Thor will be OK; you will see many racing riders will use this kind of bike anyway, horses for courses as they say.

For early season events when the weather may be more severe you may want to weather proof the bike, there are clip on guards that can be fitted, not quite as effective as full length guards but better than nothing..







Perhaps a slightly heavier, more robust tyre, you could put the lighter versions back on when the conditions improve.








There is often adjustments that can be done to amend the set up if need be, perhaps a larger cassette or even a compact chainset should you find the gear ratios too high for example.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## Randochap (27 Dec 2008)

One of my regular rando friends has the Van Nicholas Yukon, which he built up with a mix of Campag (compact) Record/Chorus and, of course, Shimano long-reach brakes.

He likes it very much. Our shop built it up for him, so I had chance to have a good look at the (Chinese-made) frame in it's raw state. The tolerances aren't particularly great, but I'd say it's pretty good for the price. 

My custom ti Marinoni is a jewel, but you would pay a good deal more. 

My main advice is the same as others who have cautioned to make sure you have clearances for bigger tyres and mudguards and ability to attach a rack. My friend has successfully run 30mm tyres on the Van Nicholas and uses a rack and racktop bag.

There's photos of him in action on the Van Nicholas on this page. It is, of course, the ti-coloured bike.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (29 Dec 2008)

Randochap said:


> One of my regular rando friends has the Van Nicholas Yukon, which he built up with a mix of Campag (compact) Record/Chorus and, of course, Shimano long-reach brakes.
> 
> He likes it very much. Our shop built it up for him, so I had chance to have a good look at the (Chinese-made) frame in it's raw state. The tolerances aren't particularly great, but I'd say it's pretty good for the price.
> 
> ...


Can't find the pictures of your friends bike via the page you linked to; would like to see 30mm tyres on a Yukon with guards, normally someone who would want to run something that large would use the Van Nicholas Amazon instead, most run 23 to 28c on the Yukon

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## Randochap (29 Dec 2008)

Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> Can't find the pictures of your friends bike via the page you linked to; would like to see 30mm tyres on a Yukon with guards, normally someone who would want to run something that large would use the Van Nicholas Amazon instead, most run 23 to 28c on the Yukon
> 
> Paul_Smith
> www.corridori.co.uk



Both photos on that page show the Van Nicholas Yukon. The lower shot actually "features" the back wheel w/ 30mm tyre in situ.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (30 Dec 2008)

Randochap said:


> Both photos on that page show the Van Nicholas Yukon. The lower shot actually "features" the back wheel w/ 30mm tyre in situ.


Oh yes I see it now:











He/you did well getting that size in, must be quite tight interms of clearance between tyres and guards, is it quite a light tyre? Loving the mudflaps by the way 

Paul_Smith


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## jimboalee (30 Dec 2008)

I ride my 200 and 300km Randos on a Dawes Giro 500.
Audax rides are NOT fast. I have to slow down.

The keeno's go rushing off. I take it steady and when I arrive at the controls, there isn't a queue.

At the final control, I catch the others and ride to the finish with them.

I spent £420 on my Giro 500, and that included mudguards.


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## Randochap (31 Dec 2008)

jimboalee said:


> I ride my 200 and 300km Randos on a Dawes Giro 500.
> Audax rides are NOT fast. I have to slow down.
> 
> The keeno's go rushing off. I take it steady and when I arrive at the controls, there isn't a queue.
> ...



That's great, jimboalee, whatever gets you round the course ... but your bike is aluminium and this thread is about titanium.

Personally, I dipped deep into my bank account to buy ti because my aging carcass was getting too beat up on the long brevets on my steel bike. I figured that the superior shock absorption of ti might help.

I haven't been disappointed in that regard. Plus I saved 1.5 lbs.


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## P.H (31 Dec 2008)

If you're looking for something closer to a road bike than those suggested so far, the Planet X Ti Sportive would be worth a look. Clearance is restricted to 25mm tyres and guards and there's no rack mounts, so defiantly more sportive than Audax, though there seems to be a growing number of people riding Audax on road bikes.
http://www.planet-x-warehouse.co.uk/?page_id=1113

A bit dearer than the Van Nick or Sabbath, it’s double butted tubing rather than the usual plain gauge and the etched graphics look loads better than the stick on transfers.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (2 Jan 2009)

P.H said:


> If you're looking for something closer to a road bike than those suggested so far, the Planet X Ti Sportive would be worth a look. Clearance is restricted to 25mm tyres and guards and there's no rack mounts, so defiantly more sportive than Audax, though there seems to be a growing number of people riding Audax on road bikes.
> http://www.planet-x-warehouse.co.uk/?page_id=1113
> 
> A bit dearer than the Van Nick or Sabbath, it’s double butted tubing rather than the usual plain gauge and the etched graphics look loads better than the stick on transfers.



Nearly all the popular Titanium manufacturers have a frame set with more of a road bike set up that can be used for fast days rides/sportive riding.

Enigma have the Echo:







Van Nicholas the Euros







Sabbath have the Silk Road





.

Most riders will use a compact transmission on these bikes plus it is quite common that most will have more spacers under the ahead stem, this is to give a relatively higher and more relaxed position than they would do if set up for racing. As Sportive style cycling has increased in popularity then so has the demand for a bike with a fast set up with an element of comfort, most bike brands have a bike set up to cater for the demand, all be it in slightly different ways.

For example the bikes shown above all have compact transmission, with a rear triangle where the stays are shaped and often slimmer than the versions they use as their full on race bike models, yet they still have quite a race bike riding position, which is why I mentioned that riders on these bikes will often have more spacers under the ahead stem; most can indeed achieve a very comfortable position on these bikes.Specialized by comparison, who have their very popular ‘Roubaix‘ range set up for this kind of riding as you can see below have theirs set up to be virtually level







Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## wyno70 (2 Jan 2009)

Which means what exactly?

Reason for asking is that I'm shortly going to be buying exactly this kind of bike and at the moment am thinking that I will go for one of 3 bikes:

Cannondale Synapse SL.
Specialized Roubaix Expert.
Van Nicholas Euro's.

At the moment I haven't ridden any of them so have no favourite, other than that I fancy a bike speciaaly made for me (so am leaning towards the VN). Obviously that may well change as and when I get to ride them.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (2 Jan 2009)

wyno70 said:


> Which means what exactly?
> 
> Reason for asking is that I'm shortly going to be buying exactly this kind of bike and at the moment am thinking that I will go for one of 3 bikes:
> 
> ...


It means that all are set up to do the same style of riding, all be it that there are slight differences.

The Cannondale Synapse SL shown below appear also appears to have a Sportive set up with compact transmission and like the bikes I have shown above curved rear end to offer an element of comfort, plus as you can see a more level riding position, much of that height is down to the fact that there are a few spacers under the ahead stem, which is also at a raised angle, unlike the Titanium versions above all of which have their stems position more horizontal, if the stems on those were also fitted flipped over so that they were also raised then the positions were not be that much different to the Cannondale.







Compare the Chainset and position to one of their race bikes for example







Note that the pictures may be a bit deceptive, the seat pins do look slightly higher on the Titanium bikes when compared to the Cannondale Synapse SL, highlighting the saddle too handlebar drop more, they may have done this to make the bikes look more 'racey' and perhaps more easy on the eye  ; however I am reasonably confident that all would offer a similar position. 

The Specialized Roubaix by comparison actually has a slightly higher front end, so potentially capable of an even higher riding position, although the saddle to handlebar drop appears to be the same as the Cannondale Synapse SL you will see that the stem is level on the Roubaix, if flipped over it would offer an even higher riding position than the Cannondale.

Providing you are still relatively flexible and can manage the position on each, then all three bikes you have mentioned should be suitable for fast day rides, you are effectively looking at each manufacturers comparible models. If however, perhaps you may have a bad back, short hamstrings or poor flexabilty, or you may just like to ride in a more upright style, then the higher potential position offered by the Roubaix may appeal.

In conclusion most riders can achieve a comfortable set up on all the Sportive bikes that have been mentioned in this and the post above.

Hope this helps.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## wyno70 (2 Jan 2009)

Thanks a lot, very useful info Paul.

To be honest, I'm not overly intelligent in terms of set up etc, so would be grateful if you could let me know, what is the difference between compact and regular transmission. Obviously triple speaks for itself.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (2 Jan 2009)

wyno70 said:


> Thanks a lot, very useful info Paul.
> 
> To be honest, I'm not overly intelligent in terms of set up etc, so would be grateful if you could let me know, what is the difference between compact and regular transmission. Obviously triple speaks for itself.



Off the peg race bike double chain sets (assume that is what you mean by regular) are normally something like 39t or 42t small ring, with a 52t or 53t large ring, often set up using rear sprockets of 11 or 12t upto as large as 25t; although they can often accept a slightly larger sprocket if needbe.

Compact double chainsets by comparison are set up to offer slightly lower overall gear ratios, to achieve this they often use a 34t small ring and a large ring of 50t, set up using rear sprockets from 12t up to 27t, although again they can often accept a slightly larger sprocket if needbe.

What you need to do is work out what gear ratios you like to use and then try and achieve them, making sure they are correctly positioned, no point if mathematically you can only get your most common used gear in largest ring largest sprocket. 

By way of an example that is all I have done on my current tour bike, I use a 13t-29t Campagnolo 10 speed cassette set up with a chainset that 26-36-46t chainrings to give the the gear ratios I am after 







I like gears of around 60”, you will see that I have got those on both middle and outer ring. I have done this essentially because this is a bike I use for two roles, solo rides of 15-20mph and touring rides of 12-15mph, to save repeated chain ring changes I can essentially use the big ring mainly for solo rides and the middle ring for more sociable rides. Even though it only has a 96" top gear I find that easily high enough for a mid 20-25 mph work out, for 15-20mph cruising I have ratios that I like available mid cassette on the 46 ring, this I find is the perfect set up for me. Of course everyone is different, some prefer a lower low gear and a higher high gear, horses for courses as they say

It does take a bit of thought as to what you need both in terms of ratios and then equipment choices to achieve them, but it can nearly always be done. In my case for example I did invest in a high quality chainset to get the ring combinations I wanted, as for me personally I find many road specific triples have ring choices too large yet the ATB chainsets too small for what I wanted.

Note I said 'wanted' not 'needed', my tour bike is used for tours, often I want to climb a long mountain pass with little effort to take in the scenery, so I chose lower gear ratios on that bike. Sportive bikes by comparison are normally ridden with no luggage, plus set up generally for riding at a higher speed than a touring bike, you can see from that gear chart above that a 34t inner chain ring with a 27t largest sprocket, a common combination on a sportive bike with compact transmission, will give a lowest gear ratio of approx' 34", on that style of bike that is low enough for most riders, even on a mountain pass.

To try and explain what a 34" gear ratio equates to you will see a red Audax bike in my tour write ups under my signature below, the 'Lejog' write up had a higher gear than that and I rode up every climb, in that specification I also toured the High Alps with two full panniers and again rode every climb.

However, I realised when I was riding in a group I had to keep the gear turning on the climbs and ride quicker than many of my new friends, who were using lower gear ratios than me and able to ride at a slower more socialble pace, that along with wanting to take in the scenery is why you will now see that bike had a triple in some of the later tour articles. As I said gear ratio choices can take some thought, the decision may not always be down to ability.

Note my bike is an Audax bike, I have mentioned it purely to illustrate the thought process that can go into deciding what gear ratios to go for. As an Audax bike like mine is often used potentially for slower tours, many spec' a triple over a double, where as the three you are considering are Sportive bikes, as I said above normally used for a slightly faster style of riding, as such they will normally have higher gear ratios than my Audax bike as a result. Generally off the peg sportive bikes will have a compact double, seldom a triple, or the larger ratios/chainrings of a race bike double. You may note that many will use an Audax bike for sportive riding and seldom for slower touring as I do, as such it is quite common that they will have them set up like a sportive bike with compact set up.

In Conclusion all three bikes you are looking at will have compact transmission, so ridden unloaded by a some one with a reasonable fitness level should find they have a very usable set of gear ratios and be able to ride up most climbs.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## wyno70 (2 Jan 2009)

Thanks again, very useful.

I'll probably be visiting you at some stage in the near future to check out the VN and the specialized.

Thanks, Matt.


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## P.H (3 Jan 2009)

Paul_Smith SRCC said:


> Nearly all the popular Titanium manufacturers have a frame set with more of a road bike set up that can be used for fast days rides/sportive riding.
> 
> Paul_Smith
> www.corridori.co.uk



Not quite the same. None of those you've sugested will take mudguards and there are other differences. The Planet X frame is between those and the Audax suggestions. I don't know of a comparable frame (That's not to say I think it's better, just that it's different)


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (3 Jan 2009)

P.H said:


> Not quite the same. None of those you've sugested will take mudguards and there are other differences. The Planet X frame is between those and the Audax suggestions. I don't know of a comparable frame (That's not to say I think it's better, just that it's different)


Yes I agree, I wasn't trying to imply they were the same as the Planet X bike you mentioned, simply that there were other bikes that also have more of a race bike style without actually being full on race bikes, these are as such also a very popular choice for sportive rides, to the extent that this is exactly the style of riding that they have been aimed at.

The bikes I mentioned in my reply to your post fit into this catergory, although the Van Nicholas Euros shown has a race bike double fitted, I find that normally customers will spec' either a compact or even a triple.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## craigwend (4 Jan 2009)

I've got a 'euros' with triple and extra spacers for the same reasons as others suggested; very comfortable bike (as comfortable as my galaxy) can't recomend it enough it enough, frame finish very impressive compaired to some others.

see attached pic if it works.


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## wyno70 (4 Jan 2009)

My cycling is at the moment pretty much only solo rides up to 60 miles. I'm planning to lenghten that this year, with a view to doing 100m audax/ sportive. I occasionally do the odd triathlon too (mainly for fun and fitness, not to win). This year I am doing London to Paris and next year want to do John O'Groats to Lands End (as a solo effort, camping etc).

As such, I'll need to be able to take luggage, so looking at the Van Nicholas range, i was thinking I'd go for the Euros but it doesn't appear that it can take luggage so I'm thinking either the Amazon or Yukon may be more appropriate.

I'd like the bike to be as quick as possible as and when I strip it down (remove mud guards etc) for triathlon but also good for touring. Ideally i'd like to stick with 23mm tyres.

Any thoughts??


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## Tombo 707 (4 Jan 2009)

I cycled down to yorkshire from Shetland in June via Orkney and John o groats. I was fully loaded. I invested in a Ridgeback Panorama. A very well built bike and took the load no problem.I stopped at cycle shops on the way down and was told my bike was a better build than Dawes. I like the look of the Amazon not sure about fixings for front panniers. I think if your looking for a titanium frame I think the Amazon or the Lightspeed blue ridge. I don't think an Audax/ Light tourer will suffice if your looking at carrying extra camping gear.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (5 Jan 2009)

wyno70 said:


> My cycling is at the moment pretty much only solo rides up to 60 miles. I'm planning to lenghten that this year, with a view to doing 100m audax/ sportive. I occasionally do the odd triathlon too (mainly for fun and fitness, not to win). This year I am doing London to Paris and next year want to do John O'Groats to Lands End (as a solo effort, camping etc).
> 
> As such, I'll need to be able to take luggage, so looking at the Van Nicholas range, i was thinking I'd go for the Euros but it doesn't appear that it can take luggage so I'm thinking either the Amazon or Yukon may be more appropriate.
> 
> ...



No bike will be designed to carry heavy luggage and then be used as a focused road specific race bike, so that means a compromise of course.

Van Nicholas Euros:







The Euros as you have seen is not designed to take luggage, although there are ways around that to an extent, seat post mounted racks for example, these type of options would not normally be a consideration for carrying camping gear though, rack tops bag and perhaps a bar bag would be all that you would normally consider on the Euros. 

Van Nicholas Yukon:






The Yukon can take a pannier rack and rear panniers, although that does not mean it is designed to carry heavy loads, even if you could get your camping gear into a bar bag and rear panniers this would be pushing the Yukon to the limit really. If you refer to my Lejog write up under my signature you will see that I have done that on my 
Audax bike of the time, although you will see I have used front panniers as well as I prefer to even out the load by distributing the weight front and rear. 

I have done full tours with front and rear panniers like that; but I knew that I was pushing the bike towards the end of what it is designed to do with that set up and was concious of the fact that it was all a bit Russian Roulette for my liking, (Lejog was supported so I only got to the tour start loaded like that). 

On that bike I could get 28c tyres, which are of course to an extent a bumper to protect the wheels, 23c on a bike loaded for camping offers little protection to the wheels. If your Lejog is a one off camping trip then the Yukon is a consideration, you will see that I now use one to replace the audax bike I mentioned above, this is because I chose to cycle camp on organised tours where my luggage is taken, I only load the bike with a rack top bag and bar bag, I wouldn't have bought it if I intended to carry heavy loads.

Van Nicholas Amazon:





The Amazon, perhaps with a different fork to what Van Nicholas can currently supply should you also want front panniers would make an ideal heavy duty touring bike and can easily take 32c tyres including guards, ideal for a Lejog camping tour, although as a result it has less focus as a race bike. Note that it is still a relatively quick bike when compared to many heavy duty tourers, so it could be a consideration for triathlons. 

Put this way, if you are doing them at a level where it is the taking part that is important then this bike would do. By the same token if you are looking for every split second in your quest for victory then I feel you may have some pondering to do as to where you are prepared to make a compromise with your new choice of bike.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## wyno70 (5 Jan 2009)

Thanks again.

London to Paris is fully supported so I don't need to carry much.

I have had a think since my last post and had pretty much come to the same conclusion. My current thinking is get the bike I want (as if I don't I'll still want it!!!) and then maybe pick up a full tourer, 2nd hand on ebay towards the end of the year.

Problem solved!


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## wyno70 (5 Jan 2009)

By the way Paul, I believe you know my cousin Paul Bishop!!

Small World!


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (6 Jan 2009)

wyno70 said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> London to Paris is fully supported so I don't need to carry much.
> 
> ...



Many do decide to buy the bike they want for the majority of the time, in your case perhaps the Euros, or even Chinook, then have a tourer that you reserve for holidays only.

That is in effect what that Red Pearson in my tours under my signature below was used for, in part as it was so old I was not precious with it for taking on Aircraft etc. It became so old though I was concerned it may fail on tour and ruin the whole holiday, so replaced the frame with the Van Nicholas Yukon; I still use ithe Pearson though, as fixed commute bike

As for Paul Bishop, oh yes I know him very well and have done since he was a young lad, he was a Saturday boy at Pearson Cycles for a long time, so long that he was infact by the end of it a Saturday man , I was manager there for 15 years or so, I still see him on a regular basis even now as he knows all of us at Corridori and is always calling in to see us 

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## wyno70 (8 Jan 2009)

Thats bad luck!!!!!!

I spoke to him today and we'll hopefully (if all goes well) pay you a visit on Saturday.

Matt.


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