# Can we talk about running?



## xxmimixx (29 Nov 2011)

Since this is the other one discipline which is part of a Triathlon, and what has caused my injury.
I have a bad case of shin splints. Am putting ice every evening. Been told to massage and stretch, stretch, stretch. But everytime I do, it hurts again. Is it normal??


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## Rob3rt (29 Nov 2011)

Shin splints is one of those injuries that could be down to all sorts, since its a catch all term its quite hard to give advice. Stretching will help to some degree' as may the ice, plus there are some taping techniques which can help, but you need to find the root of the issue, not just treat the symptoms.

In my experience, shin splints, tend to hurt when you 1st start running, then after a while it stops hurting and you feel fine, then later, after you are home and showered etc, the pain comes back with a vengeance. At my worst, my shins felt badly bruised with bad pain whenever touched, took a long lay-off to recover. Since then, I've been to a sports therapist and turns out that most of my issues with knee's (ITB), shin pain etc. was all down to my hip anterior muscles.

I would go get yourself assessed, unless you treat the root of the issue, then chances are you will continue to suffer.


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## Flying_Monkey (29 Nov 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> I would go get yourself assessed, unless you treat the root of the issue, then chances are you will continue to suffer.


 
+1. That's it really.


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## fimm (29 Nov 2011)

Agree with the others. Could be shoes, gait, any number of things. You need an expert!


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## loops (29 Nov 2011)

can be made worse if your creating impact that your not used to i.e. running on concrete only - sudden extreme force, mine went with better running shoes. Though sometimes its not quite that simple!


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## xxmimixx (30 Nov 2011)

Hi, I have been assessed and been told to stretch, stretch, stretch. But every time I do, it hurts, is it normal? This was my question sorry if it wasnt clear 

It's not my shoes as I bought them at a specialist running shop when I started running and Im using Mizuno Wave Inspire 7, great shoes. They did my running gait analysis on the treadmill and found that Im neutral on my right foot and very minor over pronation on my left foot (same as shin splints).
The problem has been caused by doing too much too soon too fast! I m going to have and start running on grass when it gets a bit better and then build up road again.

I have suffered a very bad herniated disk a few years ago. That's what prompted me to get a bike which helped me a great deal but now that Im getting fitter am striving for more I started running a couple of months back. To be honest I gave it a go thinking that I might have to accept that my body couldnt handle it due to my back, but at least I could have said 'I tried', instead I went what seemed to me from strength to strength until the injury obviosuly self induced as I like to push myself.
The person who had a look at it said that there are 3 elements that you body uses to run, and whilst I appear to be fit/athletic enough to achieve what I did, I lack of flexibility and my body as muscles didnt adjust as quickly as the rest of my body did!

Anyhow it doesnt seem to be getting better so I think is time to invest in some sport massage/therapy.


Cheers 

​


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## GrumpyGregry (30 Nov 2011)

Anecdotally a lot of people pick up leg injuries when they start running once they switch from general purpose trainers to proper running shoes supplied after gait analysis; which is a highly subjective art not a science anyway. Their bodies have adapted to their gait with all its faults over years, they switch to new shoes overnight, bin the old ones, and hey presto they are crocked.

I think not enough attention is given to phasing in the new shoes and phasing out the old ones but...


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## xxmimixx (30 Nov 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Anecdotally a lot of people pick up leg injuries when they start running once they switch from general purpose trainers to proper running shoes supplied after gait analysis; which is a highly subjective art not a science anyway. Their bodies have adapted to their gait with all its faults over years, they switch to new shoes overnight, bin the old ones, and hey presto they are crocked.
> 
> I think not enough attention is given to phasing in the new shoes and phasing out the old ones but...


 
I didnt switch from old trainers. I have just started running recently.


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## Rob3rt (30 Nov 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Anecdotally a lot of people pick up leg injuries when they start running once they switch from general purpose trainers to proper running shoes supplied after gait analysis; *which is a highly subjective art not a science anyway*. Their bodies have adapted to their gait with all its faults over years, they switch to new shoes overnight, bin the old ones, and hey presto they are crocked.
> 
> *I think not enough attention is given to phasing in the new shoes and phasing out the old ones* but...


 
It is scientific in principal, however, the person in the shop, can only do their best given limited training and equipment.

If you want more re-assurance with gait analysis then you would have to pay your money and visit an expert, someone with higher qualifications, probably in sports science, bio-mechanics or something medical and/or with access to more sophisticated equipment and such.

Typically things in sport start out as subjective, when it turns out they work and produce results, the scientific world turns its attention to why it works, gait is fairly well understood in the scientific world, however it is rare that the scientific world come up with something good in the lab and manage to transfer it over to the sporting community. Its an odd thing sports related science, its typically a study of things that work and then find out why, rather than find a problem and try to come up with a solution as in engineering and many other fields etc. Of course there are exceptions, but on the whole the above applies.

Agree on the last part. Changing to anything new, whether better or worse, usually feels like regression to some degree whilst you work through your habitual actions, changed to your gait via your shoes will undoubtedly throw up some challenges.


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## Rob3rt (30 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> I didnt switch from old trainers. I have just started running recently.


 
This suggests to me (as a non-expert :P) that either you have done too much too soon (quite likely as a bike fit person), done yourself a mischief and need to either stop running for a while, or drastically reduce mileage until your recover, and then be more careful in the future.

Altertnativelly, (and I wouldnt discount this even in the former point as its probably fairly likely if you are primarily a cyclist in terms of your physical activity) there is a fundamental issue with your running motion or physical condition that should be addressed in order to attune you to running again.

It is very easy when coming from being bike fit, to taking up running to do to much to soon, generally cardiovascular fitness will be well up to the task, so you wont feel particularly stressed by the running experience and will go for longer than maybe you realistically can handle physically as certain muscle groups may be under-developed and tendons and ligaments most certainly wont be ready for it.


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## xxmimixx (30 Nov 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> This suggests to me (as a non-expert :P) that either you have done too much too soon (quite likely as a bike fit person), done yourself a mischief and need to either stop running for a while, or drastically reduce mileage until your recover, and then be more careful in the future.
> 
> Altertnativelly, (and I wouldnt discount this even in the former point as its probably fairly likely if you are primarily a cyclist in terms of your physical activity) there is a fundamental issue with your running motion or physical condition that should be addressed in order to attune you to running again.
> 
> It is very easy when coming from being bike fit, to taking up running to do to much to soon, generally cardiovascular fitness will be well up to the task, so you wont feel particularly stressed by the running experience and will go for longer than maybe you realistically can handle physically as certain muscle groups may be under-developed and tendons and ligaments most certainly wont be ready for it.


 


xxmimixx said:


> The problem has been caused by doing too much too soon too fast!
> ...
> The person who had a look at it said that there are 3 elements that you body uses to run, and whilst I appear to be fit/athletic enough to achieve what I did, I lack of flexibility and my body as muscles didnt adjust as quickly as the rest of my body did!
> 
> ...


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## Rob3rt (30 Nov 2011)

Then really what are you asking. If all you want to know is if its normal for shin splints to hurt, then yes, of course its normal for shin splints to hurt, thats what they are, pain, in your shins :S

Stop running, or at least stop running so much and hope for the best.


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## xxmimixx (30 Nov 2011)

> ....stretch, stretch, stretch. But every time I do, it hurts, is it normal?...


 
I GIVE UP!


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## gambatte (30 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Been told to massage and stretch, stretch, stretch. But everytime I do, it hurts again. Is it normal??


 
No, you're weird! 
Join the club


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## chillyuk (30 Nov 2011)

I used to run a lot and have completed several marathons plus loads of halfs and 10k's. I trained around the lanes, no pavements, and early in my running career had shin splints and knee and hip problems. Turned out I was getting an imbalance in my legs because of running all the time on the same side of the road. When I started doing time on both sides of the road to offset the effects of the road camber on my legs all my problems cleared up fairly quickly.


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## Rob3rt (30 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> I GIVE UP!


 
Well, I think its quite obvious that if you stretch an injured muscle/ligament/tendon its going to give you a bit of jip, its like poking a bruise, or picking scabs too early! :P

The extent of the pain you should stretch though however is a different thing altogether.


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## colinr (30 Nov 2011)

At the risk of sounding like one of those crazy types, going barefoot (Vivo Barefoot Neo) has done wonders for pains. Apart from tense calves while I adapted to the forced change of form, they've been great.


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## fimm (30 Nov 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Hi, I have been assessed and been told to stretch, stretch, stretch. But every time I do, it hurts, is it normal? This was my question sorry if it wasnt clear
> 
> 
> 
> ​



Let me get this clear. Everytime you stretch, it hurts?
Can you describe the stretches you do? Who told you to do them? Where does it hurt? In the shin splint area, or somewhere else? (Just trying to get a fuller picture.)
I am wondering if you are just stretching a bit too vigorously? You should feel the stretch, but if it hurts, that isn't right.


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## Pottsy (30 Nov 2011)

My two penneth:

You've probably been doing too much too fast, build up slowly.
Try running on softer ground if possible, using parks and generally 'off road'.
Read Chi Running and look at a change of technique to more of a fore or mid-foot landing rather than heel strike.

Best of luck.


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## The Jogger (2 Dec 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> I didnt switch from old trainers.* I have just started running recently*.


 
Slow and steady and you will run through this, honest....................

Try a run specific site,www.fetcheveryone.com
post in the clinic, you quite often get doctors that run chipping in and an excellent running / cycling log.


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## gambatte (2 Dec 2011)

Aaah, jogger, another 'fetchie'?


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## The Jogger (2 Dec 2011)

Yes, I've been on fetch since 2005 what about you gambatte, great site.


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## gambatte (2 Dec 2011)

Yeah, been on there a couple of years. More so since I got the Garmin. I'm 'Gambatte' on there too. I met a load this year at Thunder Run and got the Fetchie TR24 T shirt organised by 'B-Lass'


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## timmyeatchips (3 Dec 2011)

I got terrible shin splints leading up to the last Great North Run I did, but since I got over them I've had no trouble.

Stretching is very important, but it's a prevention rather than cure. If your legs are already hurting they need a rest. Ease back into it (walking up and down steep hills is good, and there's an exercise you can do whilst sitting where you rotate your feet) and when the pain has gone start running again, increasing your running distances *gradually *(increasing distances too quickly seems to be a major cause of shinsplints). Always stretch after a run and at the first sign of pain when running, get in an ice bath.


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## Alun (3 Dec 2011)

Running is bad for your knees. Ride a bike instead !


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## Noodley (3 Dec 2011)

Do what I do; shuffle rather than run


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## gambatte (3 Dec 2011)

I actually had a doctor tell me running was bad for your joints and I ought to do something different. Then again I'd just read an article about a report saying it was essentially an urban myth. That there'd been what was efffectively one of the longest term trials which showed it.
Also made some comment about it had to be better than what I did a couple of years before, sparking up every half hour - he's regularly seen popping out to do the same. Made me decide to opt for other GPs in the practice.


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## xxmimixx (3 Dec 2011)

I have been swimming (during the past week) and it seems to make it better, my shin doesnt hurt, as long as I dont touch it or run on it. I think I will start running in the park next week


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## Alun (3 Dec 2011)

Have you seen a physio yet?


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## Ghost Donkey (5 Dec 2011)

Not wanting ot open a can of worms you can look at technique. It may not be relevant for you and as previously stated by others there are a large number of reasons for injuries. I have benefited massively from a change in technique to mid/forefoot running. The easiest way I did this was to buy some racing flats. I previously ran badly with a lot of vertical movement and hit the ground hard. Despite very good padded trainers I could only run once or twice a week. More than that, no matter how slowly I built up, I suffered from shin splints and quad fatigue to the point of having to stop running. When i researched technique I found most of the "systems" such as Chi running, Pose, Revolution Running all promoted a mid/forefoot technique. I think the shin splints were from the heavy impact with the ground and the quad pains were due to the effort of pulling my legs underneath me under load. Since changing my technique, building up slowly, I have had no shin or quad problems and can currently run 15 miles+ with none of my previous problems. My average speed is also increasing as you would expect with training and I expect I have a better running efficiency with the reduced vertical motion and faster foot turnover. I haven't gone to the full extent of barefoot running and my current shoe is the most padded version of the Nike Free run. When I originally tried changing my technique I thought I was doing well until I changed to the less padded shoes. You notice much sooner if you are hitting the ground hard. I again needed to reduce my training volume to make sure I didn't cause any injuries through a change of technique (even though I was hardly running before changing as I was still worried about injuries with pending races). I've met another triathlete with a similar story at my club. There are many opposing schools of thought around this, all supported by better qualifies people than me. I don't want to hijack the thread with a shoe discussion but it *may* be worth looking at if you have a poor running technique.


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## xxmimixx (6 Dec 2011)

Hi, no not yet, the pain is easing and have not been running yet. Just doing a lot of swimming at the moment. I MUST get my trainers on soon though! 
Hi Ghost, yes I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me. I suffered a slipped disk a few years ago and I think I benefit from cushioning until I improve on my core


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## Ghost Donkey (6 Dec 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Hi Ghost, yes I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me.


 
I'm not sure whether it's for me either . I've generally gone for a different technique foot strike with lighter padded trainers. If I'd have read the previous posts properly I'd ave seen the bits about your injuries and certainly wouldn't recommend anything radical while you're recovering. Good luck with getting back to running. If you can enjoy it again it's always more fun.


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## loops (6 Dec 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> Hi, no not yet, the pain is easing and have not been running yet. Just doing a lot of swimming at the moment. I MUST get my trainers on soon though!
> Hi Ghost, yes I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me. I suffered a slipped disk a few years ago and I think I benefit from cushioning until I improve on my core


 
Hi, I had a prolapsed disk just over 2 years ago and have had to be careful with running, in particular I have found running downhill can trigger back pain - though this may be my poor form due to inexperience, I am also interested in changing technique but couldn't bear being out of action for so long again.


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## pubrunner (7 Dec 2011)

Ghost Donkey said:


> *I have benefited massively from a change in technique to mid/forefoot running. The easiest way I did this was to buy some racing flats.* I previously ran badly with a lot of vertical movement and hit the ground hard. Despite very good padded trainers I could only run once or twice a week. More than that, no matter how slowly I built up, I suffered from shin splints and quad fatigue to the point of having to stop running. When i researched technique I found most of the "systems" such as Chi running, Pose, Revolution Running all promoted a mid/forefoot technique.


 
My experiences pretty much, match the statement above.

I've been running at various levels for nearly 30 years; I've done over a dozen marathons and numerous half marathons, 10Ks etc. Over the years, I've found that well-cushioned trainers don't work for me; I seemed to get too many injuries. Likewise, I've found that 'gimmicky' (usually expensive) shoes with 'special' features are a waste of money. 'Motion control' etc., or any 'control', simply isn't required - other than by those (few) runners who do have bio-mechanical problems.

The best shoes in my experience, are those with a minimal midsole & sole and enable the runner to run in a style which is close to bare foot running. If you look at the running style of a child aged about 10, they land on the mid/forefoot. That is the natural style that we should use and running in tall, highly-cushioned shoes does not assist in following that style.

I do as much running off-road as possible; if I'm doing a run of 10 - 20 miles, my 'cushioned' (such as there is) shoes are usually a pair of Walsh's - the tread is so worn, that they are fine on tarmac. If I'm doing a shorter run on the road, I just use a pair of beach/aqua shoes such as these :-

http://www.boardshop.co.uk/product/csolm-grbk.asp
or these :
http://www.ifsogo.com/Holiday/aquashoes_all/basic-aquashoe-Royal.html

Such shoes as these, 'force' me to run on my mid/forefoot; I'd like to do barefoot running, but the soles on these shoes provide a good degree of protection against flints/thorns etc., yet enable a much easier running style than I've ever experienced in cushioned shoes. I looked at Vibam fivefingers shoes, but these do the same thing (in my experience) at a *fraction* of the price. I recommend such shoes for running, but they need to be introduced into a training regime, *very cautiously* . . .and where possible, use off-road.

Unless you are training for marathon distance, I'd recommend training off-road as much as possible - with hills !

Tabata sessions provide an excellent and intensive training method, that would be ideal for a triathlete. (I'd be aiming for quality sessions, rather than 'junk mileage'). The session described in the article, refers to cycling; many people also use the same session, but for running.

http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/Go-for-Broke-with-Tabata-Intervals.htm

You might consider the points made in the article below :

http://www.theiflife.com/barefoot-running-injuries/

In addition to wearing flat shoes fo running, I've pretty much 'given up' wearing work shoes with a heels. Previously, I used to wear shoes like these for work :

http://www.arthurknightshoes.co.uk/...f-leather-mens-formal-lace-up-shoes-by-exceed

I now wear these :

http://www.chiarafashion.co.uk/Black-Lace-Up-Plimsolls-Pumps.html

Of course, I wear 'smart' shoes when required, but the lace-up plimsolls are very comfortable and my feet and ankles feel much better since I've been wearing them. Since I've moved over to such (minimalist) shoes for running and work, I've not had a single injury for a few years. Of course, what 'works' for one runner, doesn't always work for another, but they've been fine for me.


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## Flying_Monkey (7 Dec 2011)

I should also point out that it doesn't work for everyone. I ended up with broken bones in my foot when I tried to switch to a more forefoot style (using all the advice etc.). Turns our my naturally mid-foot gait was working for me and is not damaging. So see a specialist and get your gait assessed if you are a serious runner and want to make changes. Don't take advice from people on Internet forums at face value, even well-meaning ones who really have had great experiences doing what they did...


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## pubrunner (7 Dec 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> So see a specialist and get your gait assessed if you are a serious runner and want to make changes.


 
I'd be cautious about seeing a gait specialist. Gait analysis _might_ have some value for an experienced runner with an 'established' running style. However, if your gait is analysed, how can you be sure that it typifies your running style ?

There is considerable variation between proper gaits for different people; Paula Radcliffe does not have a good running style, but it is effective. Gait analysis _might_ cause you grief by trying to 'force' on you a running gait that's not natural for your running body. Looking at the wear patterns on your shoes, will tell a great deal about your running style.

It is worth remembering that ideal gait varies with speed and terrain. You'll have one for your 'easy' pace, a different one for race pace and an economical one (when 'forced' by fatigue). Furthermore, your gait will vary, according to whether you are running barefoot or shod - and the style/type of shoes. Consider the comments of others on this very thread; some have found that merely changing the type of footwear, has made big differences in their style (gait) of running.

In *some* runners, the leg position and foot position are identical in barefoot and shod running. However, the wedge shape of the padding on cushioned shoes, tends to move the point of impact back from the forefoot to the midfoot. The padding of the heel softens the impact, thus resulting in the runner modifying their gait to contact further back in the foot.

In my experience, there *is* correlation between foot-landing style and exposure to shoes. Some 'experts' have hypothesized that the impact of heel strikes is a cause of the high rates of repetitive stress injuries in shod runners - but they may just be trying to encourage runners to buy Vibram Fivefingers or other 'natural' (expensive) shoes.

A gait analysis is only as good as the person who is giving the analysis and the person's ability to correlate that analysis to a running shoe based on it's objective ability to control torsional forces that occur during the weight bearing phase of gait. In short, gait analysis is worthless, if you don't know the torsional or vertical support of a spectrum of shoes. Anyone who is tested barefoot, will strike with a neutral midfoot - unless there is something 'mechanically' wrong. Well. you may heel strike for a few steps, but will adjust very quickly after that.

Gait analysis is pointless for off-road running, as the surface isn't consistent - so train off-road.

IMO, man was *not* born to run on flat tarmac & concrete. The best distance runners {Kenyans/Ethiopians etc.} frequently don't wear running shoes for training and train on a variety of surfaces.

Oh yes, *don't go for gait analysis whilst injured*, you'll possibly be over-compensating and not running with your 'true' gait.


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## Flying_Monkey (7 Dec 2011)

Look, I'm sympathetic to your general position, but having been running for a long time myself I know better than to try to give the kind of depth of advice you are giving here - as a non-specialist.


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## pubrunner (7 Dec 2011)

xxmimixx said:


> I have read a lot of benefits about 'barefoot' running but not sure whether is for me.


'Barefoot' running should only be introduced, in short distances - no more than a few hundred yards at a time - and only on a soft, forgiving surface. The surface needs to be one on which you can run fully relaxed - without the concern of stepping on thorns etc..


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## pubrunner (7 Dec 2011)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I should also point out that it doesn't work for everyone.


 
Obviously, not of Tarahumaran or Kenya ancestry.


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## Trevrev (8 Dec 2011)

I've got shin splints in my right leg at the moment. I'm not a huge runner, just do it for fitness and i enjoy it. I usually do 5k every other day if i can, then i thought it would be a good idea to double it to 10k. I think thats where my troubles came from....!!! Too much too soon i think.
Managed a week of 10s before the pain kicked in....Now resting. Which is a pain in itself as i feel guilty for not running.
Hope i don't get them back again.


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## pubrunner (8 Dec 2011)

Trevrev said:


> I've got shin splints in my right leg at the moment. .


 
I've known a few runners who have had shin splints - I had them myself when I started running. You could consider using something like Tuli's heel cups - to be used in all footwear.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/ca...a=X&ei=ZrrgTvr7Bcuq8AO_lMj9BA&ved=0CGgQ8wIwAQ#

I strongly recommend building up your distance very slowly - and where possible, run off-road - you'll find it to be much more forgiving.


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## Trevrev (8 Dec 2011)

pubrunner said:


> I've known a few runners who have had shin splints - I had them myself when I started running. You could consider using something like Tuli's heel cups - to be used in all footwear.
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4PRFB_enGB449GB461&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&ion=1&biw=1280&bih=563&wrapid=tlif132335062277210&surl=1&safe=active&q=tulis heel cups&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9331844584315130843&sa=X&ei=ZrrgTvr7Bcuq8AO_lMj9BA&ved=0CGgQ8wIwAQ#
> 
> I strongly recommend building up your distance very slowly - and where possible, run off-road - you'll find it to be much more forgiving.


 
I'm not sure these inserts will help much as i land mid foot. Although i find your topics on footwear interesting.
I'm currently wearing Brooks adrenaline gts 11. As i'm an overpronator.
I purchased these from a running shop that was recommended to me by an old friend who's a coach for a local athletics club.
The interesting thing about the shop was they would only do a foot test, i.e the way your foot rests and the way the foot lands while walking bare foot. This how they could tell i was an overpronator.
When i asked if they had a running machine to look at my style of running and gait measurment,
They totally poopooed the idea of that type of thing, and said it was unnecessary.
Judging by how busy the shop was i guess they know what they're on about.


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## pubrunner (8 Dec 2011)

Trevrev said:


> I'm not sure these inserts will help much as i land mid foot. Although i find your topics on footwear interesting.
> I'm currently wearing Brooks adrenaline gts 11. As i'm an overpronator.
> I purchased these from a running shop that was recommended to me by an old friend who's a coach for a local athletics club.
> The interesting thing about the shop was they would only do a foot test, i.e the way your foot rests and the way the foot lands while walking bare foot. This how they could tell i was an overpronator.
> ...


 
As I mentioned in a previous posting, I'm not convinced as to the value of gait analysis. Gait analysis is done by examining a runner's style on a* flat* surface. Most of us run on varying terrain and doing so, is better for conditioning (strengthening) feet & legs.


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## Rob3rt (8 Dec 2011)

Road running: You are mostly running on what is relativelly flat the majority of the time so gait analysis on a treadmill is likely to have some merit, I stand by gait analysis based on my experience of running in neutral shoes, barefoot (I used to run barefoot on a treadmill once or twice a week, for up to 15km when I had gym membership), barefoot shoes (Vibram, which I hated as they tore the back of my ankle to shreds - they were the proper fit etc, just not suited for my shape I guess) and shoes based on a gait assessment (both by a shop, which of course is a bit hit and miss and by a sports therapist, who I have a little more confidence in). Out of all my experience, my running was far less prone to injury using the gait analysis prescribed shoes than any other shoe. I should note though, I did have bio mechanics shortfalls relating to weak muscles in my outer hips, which have now been partly addressed via my physio treatment so a new gait analysis might come up with different results this time.

Off-road running: Ground is inherently uneven and gait correction is not a particularly great idea, thus off road shoes are usually neutral (with some exceptions - disclaimer :P).


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## pubrunner (8 Dec 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> barefoot shoes (Vibram, which I hated as *they tore the back of my ankle to shreds*


 
Did the shoes have a high heel tab ? 

I've known runners buy very expensive shoes and then cut the tab off, in order to prevent rubbing against the back of the ankle.


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## Rob3rt (8 Dec 2011)

Yes Vibram have a high heel tab, but its there to hook over your heel to hold them on. They also dig in around the toes if tightened up, basically they didnt fit me anatomically (could only be found out by using them, trying them on was fine), even though they were the right size.


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## pubrunner (8 Dec 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> barefoot shoes (Vibram, . . . ..


 
I tried the Vibrams and wasn't particularly impressed - especially considering the cost of them. I genuinely find it is easier to run in 'aqua' or beach shoes. They probably don't last quite as long, but at £10 a pair,I don't mind. 

I must say that when I run in barefoot shoes, my calves are noticeably tighter afterwards. They seem to give more of a 'workout' to the lower leg and feet, than do normal shoes.


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## pubrunner (8 Dec 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> Yes Vibram have a high heel tab,


 
I don't remember the ones that I tried as having a high heel tab - mind you, I'd probably only have noticed if they were rubbing.



Rob3rt said:


> but its there to hook over your heel to hold them on.


 
Shoe design seems to be going aroud in circles; there was a fashion for high tabs; and then they were removed entirely. The best running shoes that I ever owned (back in the 80s) were a pair of Ron Hill 2.07s - so called after the Marathon World Record. They had virtually no padding, were flat soled and had no heel tab.


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## pubrunner (8 Dec 2011)

I also forgot to mention another aspect of gait analysis;* IMO*, gait depends on the *type* of shoes being worn. If I trained for a week in heavy, highly-padded cushioned shoes and then went for a run in lightweight racing shoes, my gait would change noiceably. I'd also have greater speed, faster cadence and a different stride length.

I certainly notice when I go from my 'heavy' trainers, and use my 'barefoot' shoes.

I'm not entirely against cushioned shoes; they are especially useful at this time of the year, since they are warmer & more weather-proof.


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## ColinJ (8 Dec 2011)

I was reading about the Tarahumara people a while back. I'd like to read more.

I found this interesting article describing how to make sandals from old tyres, a bit like the sandals that the Tarahumara wear for running. I mustn't run any more (I have dodgy hips), but I'd like to make a pair of those sandals to use on warm weather walks.


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## Rob3rt (8 Dec 2011)

pubrunner said:


> I also forgot to mention another aspect of gait analysis;* IMO*, gait depends on the *type* of shoes being worn. If I trained for a week in heavy, highly-padded cushioned shoes and then went for a run in lightweight racing shoes, my gait would change noiceably. I'd also have greater speed, faster cadence and a different stride length.
> 
> I certainly notice when I go from my 'heavy' trainers, and use my 'barefoot' shoes.
> 
> I'm not entirely against cushioned shoes; they are especially useful at this time of the year, since they are warmer & more weather-proof.


 
Thats probably why its a good idea to be honest with the person doing the gait analysis about the type of training/racing you will be using the particular shoes (and get the analysis for each pair you are going to use) for and also setting the treadmill up to simulate as close as possible the conditions you will use them in (in my experience, I've always been given free reign of the treadmill for the duration of the analysis). Having said this, its never going to be spot on.


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## Rob3rt (8 Dec 2011)

ColinJ said:


> I was reading about the Tarahumara people a while back. I'd like to read more.
> 
> I found this interesting article describing how to make sandals from old tyres, a bit like the sandals that the Tarahumara wear for running. I mustn't run any more (I have dodgy hips), but I'd like to make a pair of those sandals to use on warm weather walks.


 
Read the book Born to Run maybe. Loads of people love it, although I thought it was dross on the most part.


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## Crankarm (9 Dec 2011)

Everyone is different. Lol! What works for one might not work for others.

Basics DO NOT stretch cold muscles. Massage them, lots. Stretch after running ie when muscles are warm hot and go easy!

Run on grass ie parks or round edges of football pitches as already stated is good advice. Although you might not get access to Manchester United's ground.

Gait analysis IME is bollox. Shop assistants claiming they know all about physiology and sports science. One week stacking shelves or selling mobile phones the next working in a sports shop. Waste of time and money. If you do seek advice go to a properly qualified person ie a doctor with a specialism in sports science. Like everything you will have to pay and like every one else you will baulk at paying and go to the local sports shop where spotty Wayne is working and take advice from him. LoL!

Work out a rough training plan and distance with rest days. Some days run half your distance but do interval training ie run 75, 80, 100% of max for 30 seconds or 1 minute. Practice running backwards, it feels counter intuitive at first but is bloody good at strenghtening opposite muscles to those you use running forwards.

Don't run on roads or pavements, run on grass, oh I said that already.

And massage massage massage. It works. Massage before you start running. Take 10-15 mintues to this properly - your calves, shins and Achilles areas and quads if need be. Massage from outward point to toward the heart so you are pushing blood out of a muscle toward the heart so fresh can flow in. Use clenched fist, knuckles, thumbs. Once you do it a few times and get over the intial tenderness you will look forward to it. Even when on a run of you get a twinge stop and massage it DO NOT run through it as it may develop into a tear and injury meaning you cannot run. Look after your body. Do not over do the stretching and only stretch when your body IS WARM!!!! Otherwise you WILL pull a muscle and get injuries.


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## ACW (9 Dec 2011)

try yoga, cured mine and they have never come back


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## Trevrev (9 Dec 2011)

Crankarm said:


> Don't run on roads or pavements, run on grass, oh I said that already.


 

I Like to work out routes on google maps, work out the distance and go and pound the streets. Makes interesting and varied running.
The trouble with running on a softer surface generally means running around the local dog sh1t strewn park, going around and around and around and around and around and around ! Which is very dull.
Or getting in the car to drive to the forest and run the gravel tracks.......Which is fine, but when time is limited, and it always seems to be for me lately can be difficult.
Weekend running for me, means getting up early, before the wife and kids, go do 45-mins or so, get back to be ready for them to spend the day with me.
In the evenings......Get home from work, chuck my bike in the shed, quick change into running gear, and off i go.........Then spend the evening with the family. As bad as it is to run the pavements it's convenient. I'd love to do more running in perfect conditions.


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## Rob3rt (9 Dec 2011)

Trevrev said:


> I Like to work out routes on google maps, work out the distance and go and pound the streets. Makes interesting and varied running.
> The trouble with running on a softer surface generally means running around the local dog sh1t strewn park, going around and around and around and around and around and around ! Which is very dull.
> Or getting in the car to drive to the forest and run the gravel tracks.......Which is fine, but when time is limited, and it always seems to be for me lately can be difficult.
> Weekend running for me, means getting up early, before the wife and kids, go do 45-mins or so, get back to be ready for them to spend the day with me.
> In the evenings......Get home from work, chuck my bike in the shed, quick change into running gear, and off i go.........Then spend the evening with the family. As bad as it is to run the pavements it's convenient. I'd love to do more running in perfect conditions.


 
Same philosophy here pretty much, I do run along the canal tow-paths a fair bit, but generally I go out and just run, making decisions as I go and seeing where I end up.

Running round a field or park is beyond boring. I did used to run around the lake in a local park when doing intervals, but that was pretty much soul destroying.

Also, I think that you should do a good portion (say 30-50%) of your training on surfaces akin to those your will compete on.


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## Arsen Gere (9 Dec 2011)

For those of you doing triathlons in the northeast, the Darlington one has a 200m run from the pool to the road across a field to the bike start. If you put your cycling shoes on first it's a long run to fill you cleats with mud.
The Cleveland sprint course (Stokesley, a nice event too) has a 100m run down a clean tarmac path from the pool to transition which I found made my feet ache a bit the next day. It wore off after a couple of days. You can leave shoes outside the pool if you wanted to.
So when you do triathlons you get a bit of bare foot running whether you like it or not.


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## Arsen Gere (9 Dec 2011)

Also in this thread http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/endurance-training-maffetone.91477/ I mentioned Dr Phil Maffetone who is also a proponent of bare foot or bare as you can foot running as part of his holistic approach to endurance sports.


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## Crankarm (10 Dec 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> Same philosophy here pretty much, I do run along the canal tow-paths a fair bit, but generally I go out and just run, making decisions as I go and seeing where I end up.
> 
> _*Running round a field or park is beyond borin*_g. I did used to run around the lake in a local park when doing intervals, but that was pretty much soul destroying.
> 
> Also, I think that you should do a good portion (say 30-50%) of your training on surfaces akin to those your will compete on.


 
LoL! Not so and running around a track isn't? I used to pound the pavements when I lived in London and get stuff thrown at me from scum in passing cars. F*ck that for a laugh. I don't miss running in built up areas one bit.

I now run around a huge playing field about 8 full size football pitches on the edge of town. Very well kept grass so not constantly looking out for dodgy pavements, abandoned wheelie bins, scrotes on bmxs, dogshit, or people coming back from pub pissed abusing you itching for a fight. I was beat up about one month ago running in a residential street between playing field and home by a group of thugs. So running in a nice well kept safe rural playing field is preferrable for me. Also you can easily concentrate on your running technique and stop for circuit training exercises if you want at various points without being hassled, attracting attention or causing a disturbance. The only spectators are wabbits and the occasional fox. The moon is your light bulb as opposed to dingy orange street lights. On a full moon lit night like last night, no-one around, it is bliss.


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## Rob3rt (10 Dec 2011)

Crankarm said:


> *LoL! Not so and running around a track isn't? I used to pound the pavements when I lived in London and get stuff thrown at me from scum in passing cars. F*ck that for a laugh. I don't miss running in built up areas one bit.*
> 
> 
> I now run around a huge playing field about 8 full size football pitches on the edge of town. Very well kept grass so not constantly looking out for dodgy pavements, abandoned wheelie bins, scrotes on bmxs, dogshit, or people coming back from pub pissed abusing you itching for a fight. I was beat up about one month ago running in a residential street between playing field and home by a group of thugs. So running in a nice well kept safe rural playing field is preferrable for me. Also you can easily concentrate on your running technique and stop for circuit training exercises if you want at various points without being hassled, attracting attention or causing a disturbance. The only spectators are wabbits and the occasional fox. The moon is your light bulb as opposed to dingy orange street lights. On a full moon lit night like last night, no-one around, it is bliss.


 
Running around a track is also boring FOR ME!


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## Trevrev (11 Dec 2011)

I did get up bright and early yesterday and did some park running. I had no choice really, i need to be kind to my legs at the moment and give them a break. It was boring but it's something i had to do.
It's the evenings that bother me with the park thing, all the youths hang out in the parks at night, lurking in the dark, being pains the the bum.


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## Flying_Monkey (2 Jan 2012)

How's everyone's running form right now?

I've done almost 100km over the last two weeks, and I have my first race of the year on Sunday - the aptly named Resolution Run (8k). I managed to get out and do my usual 10.5k circuit over a mixture of normal and gravel roads, which I ran hard today to get an indication of form. My tme was 47 minutes - this time last year, I was out of shape and running in the mid 50s for the same distance. The weather was looking okay until today, but it has got really windy and the temperature here is due to drop to -13 tonight (it only gets worse until the end of February...) 

I am still hoping to go under 32 minutes for the 8k on the day, but we'll see... I'll be happy with anything under 35.


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## pubrunner (3 Jan 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> How's everyone's running form right now?
> 
> I've done almost *100km over the last two weeks*, ....


 
Reading that, makes me feel most guilty; I must get out & get some miles in. I'm impressed with 100km over the Christmas period - such dedication; even when I've been training and racing reasonably well, I've always tended to slacken off and reach for the mince pies  .


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## Flying_Monkey (3 Jan 2012)

pubrunner said:


> Reading that, makes me feel most guilty; I must get out & get some miles in. I'm impressed with 100km over the Christmas period - such dedication; even when I've been training and racing reasonably well, I've always tended to slacken off and reach for the mince pies  .


 
I managed to get out 6 days out of 9 I was at my folks' over the Christmas period. I forced myself precisely to counteract my natural tendency to be a slacker, which most years leads me to put on a fair bit of weight. You could say I put on the km instead of the kg!


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## pubrunner (3 Jan 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> . . . . . . . my natural tendency to be a slacker, which most years leads me to put on a fair bit of weight.


 
Me too ! As usual, I've over-indulged. !

Keep posting re. your running training & racing; I'm hoping that eventually, my guilt and shame will lead me to get starting some serious training. Nothing makes me feel more guilty, than reading about how much others are doing. I really must get out and do a bit of cycling this year; of course, time is always an issue. Regarding fitness, I always find that one or two hours of running , always 'produces' more than the same time on a bike.

You might find some useful stuff on this website, though you're probably so organised, you don't require it. (I'm using the weight chart  ).

http://www.davidhays.net/running/runlog/runlog.html


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## Flying_Monkey (8 Jan 2012)

32.34 for the 8k Resolution Run today, and 15th place overall, near enough to what I'd hoped to make me happy! Lucky there was no snow, although it was quite cold.


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## Arsen Gere (10 Jan 2012)

So 32.34 for 8k equates to 40.25 for 10k so doing well for the off season.

I bumped up my swim distance to 4k in a session and found my ankles suffered, I'd done a marathon in October and I had to reduce my run distance to 4 miles two or three times a week so this was a surprise to me. I'd not swam 4k before let alone doing 2 a week.
I wanted to see what went wrong in the winter before I found out later in the year around competitions.
I kept the swim distance fixed and have slowly raised the run mileage to 15 miles for my LSR.
My first test of the year will be the Brass Monkey half marathon in York on the 22nd.


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## xxmimixx (12 Jan 2012)

well gone back to running after 6 weeks off due to painful shin splints. Done 3m on the treadmill on Monday, 5m slow road running Tue and tonight another 5m a little faster (but not at my fastest!). NO pain so far but have been going slower. Unfortunately the injury has held me back and had planned a 10m event at the end of January. Do you think that Im being over ambitious or that I will do more harm than good if I do it?? Really want to but not to the detriment of my future fitness!


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## montage (12 Jan 2012)

I've just skimmed over this...you say your have a pronation in the left foot and that is the same leg that you have the shin splints?

Considering that foot-pronation is one of the major causes of shin splints, I'm surprised if it hasn't been mentioned already.

If the shins start to hurt again, check out an orthopedic and mention the pronation. Stretching and icing is good for mild cases of shin splints, but if you have it bad, then chances are it is a biomechanical problem and stretching and icing will only cure the symptoms.

My sources include a very long struggle and a lot of money spent on a lot of various experts


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## pubrunner (13 Jan 2012)

xxmimixx said:


> well gone back to running after 6 weeks off due to painful shin splints. Done 3m on the treadmill on Monday, 5m slow road running Tue and tonight another 5m a little faster (but not at my fastest!). NO pain so far but have been going slower. Unfortunately the injury has held me back and had planned a 10m event at the end of January. *Do you think that Im being over ambitious or that I will do more harm than good if I do it?? Really want to but not to the detriment of my future fitness!*


 
IMO, I think that it would be advisable not to do the race. Having had 6 weeks off, your time *will* be slower that it would otherwise. Psychologically, I see little point in going to do a race where you* know* that you will achieve a 'slow' time.

The only reason for doing the race imo, would be to do it as a training run - and even then, it is possibly a little ambitious at this stage of the year. If you have a 'borderine' injury, it is more likely to re-occur in a race situation.

If you do the race, there is an element of risk - you don't want to make the shin spints re-occur; if an injury comes on halfway around the race, what then ? A painful walk to the finish ? Imagine how that might make you feel.


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## Flying_Monkey (14 Jan 2012)

Arsen Gere said:


> So 32.34 for 8k equates to 40.25 for 10k so doing well for the off season.


 
The question is whether I get much better for the on-season! I am not a specialist runner by any means, have only started running competitively in the last two years (this will really be my first full year of events) and I've never got below 40 minutes in a 10k. I hope by the end of the season, I will be able to do so regularly...


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## xxmimixx (15 Jan 2012)

montage said:


> I've just skimmed over this...you say your have a* pronation in the left foot* and that is the same leg that you have the shin splints?
> 
> Considering that foot-pronation is one of the major causes of shin splints, I'm surprised if it hasn't been mentioned already.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Montage, the pronation found on those gait analysis machine at local sweatshop, was about 5%, Im no expert but it sounds relatively slight to me. Maybe what is more concern is that I suffered a slipped disk about 4 years ago, and every now and then I get niggly pain on the same side of my lower back. I have not been in such discomfort as to persuade me to get seen by a specialist again but if I reoccur any further injury then I will undoubtedly follow that route again.



pubrunner said:


> IMO, I think that it would be advisable not to do the race. Having had 6 weeks off, your time *will* be slower that it would otherwise. Psychologically, I see little point in going to do a race where you* know* that you will achieve a 'slow' time.
> 
> The only reason for doing the race imo, would be to do it as a training run - and even then, it is possibly a little ambitious at this stage of the year. If you have a 'borderine' injury, it is more likely to re-occur in a race situation.
> 
> If you do the race, there is an element of risk - you don't want to make the shin spints re-occur; if an injury comes on halfway around the race, what then ? A painful walk to the finish ? Imagine how that might make you feel.


 
To be honest this would be my first race so have nothing to 'beat' just achieve completing it, to set a mark for my next race of the same distance.
Since my return I have run 3 times without issues, and by race day I could potentially have run another 6 times, and upped my mileage to 7 miles. So only have to find 3 miles. If I want to be 'positive' I can safely assume that if I run 7 miles twice on the week of the 23rd, without any pain or discomfort, then a shin splint in not as likely, half way through.

I have not made my mind up yet, just playing devils advocate. Like I said I would not like to cut off my nose to spite my face as I have many event planned 2+ a month from March, but just keeping my options open and being positive.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Feb 2012)

Second race of the year today, and the first one back after doing my knee last month. It's just a 5k, but there's 6 inches of snow on the ground and more snow falling as we speak... bring it on!


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## gambatte (12 Feb 2012)

Deliberate DNS today. Club had an aquathon. Unfortunately this bug has me morning phlegm raising in a way reminiscent of when I used to smoke. I know I could have done it, but I figured sense over enthusiasm. 2 weeks to recuperate for the Huddersfield 10k.
Instead we had a nice family walk round a local lake


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Feb 2012)

Did the 5k today - and once again, 15th place (out of 166). Time was 20.05, a little bit slower than I would normally have liked, but just having come back from injury and with the weather so cold and the surface so treacherous with slippery snow, I am quite pleased. What's more, this race also had a male/female pairs element to it, and my race partner and I won our age group. Now I have to adjust my training (well, restart my training) to aim simultaneously for a half marathon at the end of April and the first sprint tri's of the year around the same time.


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## fimm (13 Feb 2012)

I'm getting into my marathon training now. Had an issue with my ITBs last week but appear to have found a way to manage it... I am not sure if my legs are going to survive the training, but I will only know for sure when I get to the finish line!


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## fimm (13 Feb 2012)

User14044mountain said:


> Which marathon are you going for? I've not run one since the London 2010 but I love this time of the year, weather is getting better, just right for those long runs! Good luck - keep us posted with your progress.


Lochaber (Fort William). April 15th. This will be my 1st standalone marathon - my boyfriend reckons a standalone marathon is harder than an Ironman run leg, and I'm not going to disagree with him until I've done both (as he has).


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## fimm (13 Feb 2012)

User14044mountain said:


> I'm not sure I agree with him . I think each has it's own challenge - but running 26 miles is running 26 miles and if you happen to have swam 2.4 miles and cycled 112 miles beforehand, that can make the ironman run really hard (as you know). The challenge for the standalone marathon comes from the fact that hopefully you'll run it a bit faster than the ironman - and getting the pace right is the issue but as you've done plenty of training, I guess you've got that sussed



His argument is that you run a standalone marathon at a much higher intensity than an IM run leg & therefore it hurts more. Certainly my IM run was at a pace and intensity (and with a deliberate run - walk strategy, which I'd trained for) to give me the best chance of finishing, with time being secondary. If I get the time I'm aiming for at Lochaber, I'll be over an hour faster...


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Feb 2012)

fimm said:


> His argument is that you run a standalone marathon at a much higher intensity than an IM run leg & therefore it hurts more. Certainly my IM run was at a pace and intensity (and with a deliberate run - walk strategy, which I'd trained for) to give me the best chance of finishing, with time being secondary. If I get the time I'm aiming for at Lochaber, I'll be over an hour faster...


 
I don't buy this at all. He's comparing apples and pears. If you are a leisure competitor then whatever you are doing will be at a lower intensity, if you are a more serious semi-pro etc., then it will be higher. All other things being equal, nine hours of physical exercise is tougher than three.


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## Arsen Gere (15 Feb 2012)

Some thoughts on running and calories burned...

I ran to work and home again yesterday, I tried to run at a constant heart rate = 140 bpm.

I ran to work in a 10mph wind and slightly up hill at a pace of 8.04 min/mile. 1 hr 28 min.
I ran home slightly down with a tail wind at 140 bpm again, at a pace of 7:31 min/mile so 1 hr 23 mins.

Interestingly my watch (Garmin 405 cx) reckons I burned 1340 calories ( 15.2 cal/min) going to work and 1323 coming home (15.9 cal/min), probably because my HR was fixed and reflects the constant load over the same distance but for a shorter duration.

To keep my HR up I have to run quicker down hill as opposed to slower up hill.

So although the times were different the energy expenditure was almost exactly the same, if you believe the watch.

Now 1g of carbs = 4 calories. Max calory uptake is 1g/min if a single carb eg glucose, but if two carbs eg glucose+fructose you can do 1.2g min.

Now if I can only get in 4 to 6 cal/min and I am putting out 15-16 I have a deficit of about 10 cal/min. So if my body goes to it's fat stores they produce about 37 cal/g. The body only has around 3000 cal of glycogen but a fat store of 75000 cal of fat.

So to finalise the results of this analysis - my legs hurt.


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## xxmimixx (16 Feb 2012)

Arsen Gere said:


> So to finalise the results of this analysis - my legs hurt.


 
 lolz 

sorry but found that sentence funny!


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## Flying_Monkey (20 Feb 2012)

15km today at a steady pace with a fast final km. Cold but sunny and no wind. And no pain. Heaven!


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## xxmimixx (20 Feb 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> 15km today at a steady pace with a fast final km. Cold but sunny and no wind. And no pain. Heaven!



Excellent news! I got back to running last week and no pain, and using roller every day now. It's a God sent. It's so nice to feel 'fit' to take part in activities


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## fimm (21 Feb 2012)

Arsen Gere said:


> So to finalise the results of this analysis - my legs hurt.


 
*Like*


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## cerenko (23 Feb 2012)

currently running 60 to 70 miles per week, cycling 100 to 150 and gym 2 to 3 times per week, determined to get top 50 in edale skyline fell race end of march 21 mile, then hopefully gold standard in etupe du dales 110 mile end of may, never mixed the training so much as I have this year but its paying off already with two second places under my belt since Xmas, hopefully I can keep it going until end of may then have a week off resting before my next challenge which I have not decided on yet ? would love to have a go at a duathlon some time.


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## pubrunner (24 Feb 2012)

cerenko said:


> currently running 60 to 70 miles per week, cycling 100 to 150 and gym 2 to 3 times per week, .


 
That's very impressive; in the dim & distant past, I frequently did 70 (ish) miles a week - running. That was without any gym work or cycling, though. I'd have found it very hard to maintain your volume of training, as I'd suffer from injuries more frequently. If I had tried that sort of training, I think that there would have been more 'junk' miles; I'd have found it hard to keep up with the speedwork and quality training.

If you have a partner, they must be very understanding - please tell me your most feasible excuses  Presumably, you don't have kids ?

If you could find time for some swimming training , you could find yourself on the way to becoming a very good triathlete.

Good luck with it all !


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## cerenko (24 Feb 2012)

pubrunner said:


> That's very impressive; in the dim & distant past, I frequently did 70 (ish) miles a week - running. That was without any gym work or cycling, though. I'd have found it very hard to maintain your volume of training, as I'd suffer from injuries more frequently. If I had tried that sort of training, I think that there would have been more 'junk' miles; I'd have found it hard to keep up with the speedwork and quality training.
> 
> If you have a partner, they must be very understanding - please tell me your most feasible excuses  Presumably, you don't have kids ?
> 
> ...


 

I have been very lucky with injuries and illness over the last 25 year of training, usually just the odd sprained ankle from to much fell running. I am mainly a runner than a cyclist now but I started off as a cyclist doing 300 to 400 mile per week, I think that is what got me into the big miles, anything else and I don't feel like I have done anything.
Its quite easy if planned well to get all of the aspects of training in during the week and still recover enough to train hard, hill work, speed session long run etc.
I work mostly afternoon shifts and always have so when the wife and kids have gone to work and school it gives me 4 hours to train before I go to work, they don't even know I have been training sometimes which keeps everyone happy. A typical weekend would be up at 6, run 2 hours, then on to bike or gym for 1 and half hours, gob done by 10.30, easy.
It helps that I recover quickly, I have always put this down to a very healthy diet and protein drinks plus mega doses of multi vitamins and minerals.
Most of my running and cycling friends cover a lot more mileage than I do, 2 of them doing 120 per week running plus gym, I tried upping the mileage some years ago but felt bad all season.
Any way off now for a 15 mile run, 10 steady last 5 with intervals then 42 hill on bike but slow spinning, off work all week so making the most of it.

cheers.


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## Arsen Gere (5 Mar 2012)

An article showing running in shoes makes you faster than barefoot, but adding weight slows you down - in this blog.
http://sweatscience.runnersworld.com/

Conclusion : run in lightweight shoes.

Paper here :
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/A..._of_Running_Barefoot_versus_Shod__.98716.aspx


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## cerenko (6 Mar 2012)

Don't run in the lightest shoes you can find, I learnt the hard way. two years ago I was second in my local 5 mile road league with 2 races to go so I bought some ultra light road flats, did a couple of fast training runs in them and then did the race, my feet and knees where so sore I lost over a minuet and dropped to 10th place in the league, I continued to train in the ultra light flats until the next race where I eventually had to drop out after a few mile due to the pain in ankles, after that I went back to my medium weight trainers and never had a problem since.


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## Flying_Monkey (18 Mar 2012)

Got my first 10k race of the year next weekend, and then my first (and probably only) half marathon of the year at the end of April. My training hasn't been the best (for family reasons)... we'll see.


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## Flying_Monkey (25 Mar 2012)

Well, that wasn't so bad... this particular 10k is never one that attracts all the serious local runners, but there was a group of four of us who started with some purpose and stayed a long way ahead for rest of the race. I ended up 3rd in 39.37, and as my target had been a sub-40 minute 10k, I was very pleased. It was also good from a tactical point of view. The group of four soon split into two pairs, so I ended up having a duel with this much younger guy. With about 2.5km to go he seemed to want to try to overtake me, so I just upped the pace on an uphill section and then kept it up for the next 1.5km, knowing that I probably didn't have the finish he would have. This worked and he never got back up with me again...


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## Flying_Monkey (11 Apr 2012)

Upping my distances now in advance of my first half-marathon at the end of the month. Did 23km, mostly cross-country, on Sunday. Felt very nice indeed. I was keeping it easy but my legs didn't even ache and I could even manage a sprint at the end.


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## pubrunner (11 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Upping my distances now in advance of my first half-marathon at the end of the month. Did 23km, mostly cross-country, on Sunday. Felt very nice indeed. I was keeping it easy but my legs didn't even ache and I could even manage a sprint at the end.


 
I'm pleased that you keep posting about your running experiences . . . but they make me feel so guilty  - and remind me that I also need to get out and train. 

I see that you did a sub 40 10K recently, I wonder if I'll ever get under 40 minutes again ?


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## smokeysmoo (11 Apr 2012)

pubrunner said:


> I wonder if I'll ever get under 40 minutes?


I know I won't. I did the Salford 10km on Good Friday with a PB of 56:24!


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## 007fair (11 Apr 2012)

I can run a very hilly 8k in about 40 mins. Maybe a 40 min flat 10k is possible? Would be fantastic.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Apr 2012)

pubrunner said:


> I see that you did a sub 40 10K recently, I wonder if I'll ever get under 40 minutes again ?


 
Well, I'm not sure I'll ever do it again either!


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## baldycyclist (15 Apr 2012)

Just did a parkrun yesterday in Durham - really good atmosphere 
5k in under 26 minutes.
Might do it every Sat morning as it left me with enough energy for a slow 7 miles today (trying to master plodding at 10 minute mile pace for a marathon (not yet entered))
Has anyone tried them?


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## smokeysmoo (15 Apr 2012)

baldycyclist said:


> Just did a parkrun yesterday in Durham - really good atmosphere
> 5k in under 26 minutes.
> Might do it every Sat morning as it left me with enough energy for a slow 7 miles today (trying to master plodding at 10 minute mile pace for a marathon (not yet entered))
> Has anyone tried them?


Love Parkrun, did a few last year and started back in January this year


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## xxmimixx (15 Apr 2012)

Id love to start going to Park run but I wake up at 6.30 mon to fry, train almost every week 5x a week and the least I demand is have a lie in in the morning!  Plus my 'nearest' is 18m away. I suppose if I was really keen I could cycle there, run and cycle back! Probably on a warm sunny day


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## fimm (16 Apr 2012)

Lochaber Marathon yesterday - my first. 3 hours 27 minutes. Quite pleased with that. My legs were very sore yesterday. They are quite stiff now, especially one knee, but not as bad as I thought they would be!


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## xxmimixx (16 Apr 2012)

well done


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## Pottsy (16 Apr 2012)

Nice one fimm. An excellent time too. 

I'm mid-training for a marathon on May 20th, so only a month or so for me. I did a 20 miler on Saturday which went well so I'm happy at the moment. 

Have you got any other races booked or planned?


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Apr 2012)

Yeah, that's a fantastic time. I don't think it's a distance I will ever do (because of my knees).


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## fimm (16 Apr 2012)

Thank you. 
The only other race I've entered is Lochore Meadows Sprint Tri in June. I want to have a bit of a break from running as my legs have suffered a bit in the run-up to the marathon - I've been managing ITB issues. My plan is to try and fit in some more hillwalking around my boyfriend's preparation for the West Highland Way race in June...

Incidentally I adopted a run:walk startegy - run for 14 minutes, power-walk for 1 minute, repeat. It definitely worked for me.


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## tjw_78 (16 Apr 2012)

Alun said:


> Running is bad for your knees. Ride a bike instead !


 
Apparently that is a myth


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## tjw_78 (16 Apr 2012)

fimm said:


> Incidentally I adopted a run:walk startegy - run for 14 minutes, power-walk for 1 minute, repeat. It definitely worked for me.


 
Scouts pace (or a variation of it). I used this a lot when training for the Terrex c2c AR race last year. 10-15 minute run, 60 seconds walking. I can keep going for hours that way, which I certainly can't do if I just run.


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## Pottsy (16 Apr 2012)

Again, an excellent time fimm, especially with that run/walk strategy too. A nice approach.

Incidentally I spent years managing ITB issues and the sore knees that occurred as a result. I've now adopted this Chi-running form, mid-foot strike and flatter, less supportive and minimal shoes (e.g. Saucony Kinvara, Nike Free Run 2) and I'm completely injury free. It's taken over a year of slow progression to a new technique and lots of additional work on core and flexibility (and lots of use of the foam roller to stretch them), but a combination of all these factors has really worked for me. 

I also don't agree with the statement that running is bad for your knees. Running badly certainly is though.


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## fimm (16 Apr 2012)

Pottsy said:


> I also don't agree with the statement that running is bad for your knees. Running badly certainly is though.


 +1
My boyfriend is very big on running technique, minimalist running shoes (he now does all his on-road training in race flats) etc etc. So he keeps me right, and I'm slowly moving into a more what he would call fore-foot-strike style of running. I do need to work on my flexibilty too; I have very tight hamstrings. We do have a foam roller with which I have been attacking my ITB; I guess I will give it a good go this evening (which is likely to hurt even more than it usually does!)

Run:walk strategies seem to be very popular with triathletes doing longer distance races.


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Apr 2012)

I naturally run mid-foot, and don't have any issues with running as such; it was the years of judo and soccer that did my knees and from which they are slowly recovering.


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## Pottsy (16 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I naturally run mid-foot, and don't have any issues with running as such; it was the years of judo and soccer that did my knees and from which they are slowly recovering.


 
Yes fair enough, if your knees are already struggling as a result of other sports then running isn't really ideal, especially longer distances.

If anyone is interested, the book Born to Run by Christopher McDougall is a fascinating and inspiring read about minimalist running; part history, part anthropology, part comment on technique and part just a good story


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## pubrunner (16 Apr 2012)

fimm said:


> +1
> My boyfriend is very big on running technique, minimalist running shoes (he now does all his on-road training in race flats) .


 
A friend of mine who runs for N. Ireland, is doing a PhD about running shoes and the stresses that they impose; he is certain that it is the way forward. Mind you, he is being sponsored by the Vibram 5 fingers company, so he would, wouldn't he ?

I actually did 10k in training today, in minimalist running shoes - landing primarily on the forefoot . . . not so easy going downhill, though. I'm a big fan of it. After 30 years of running, this is a 'fad' that actually seems to work for me.



Flying_Monkey said:


> I naturally run mid-foot, and don't have any issues with running as such; it was the* years of judo* and soccer that did my knees and from which they are slowly recovering.


 
I did judo for quite a few years . . . my knees are fine, but I'm certain that it affected my ankles. Over the 30 years I've been running, those fellow runners with the worst injuries, have *always* come from a soccer background.


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## pubrunner (16 Apr 2012)

fimm said:


> +1
> I have very tight hamstrings. .


 
Most runners have very tight hamstrings; it ain't necessarily a bad thing. It is believed that over-flexibility in distance runners, can lead to an inefficient stride pattern.


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## pubrunner (16 Apr 2012)

fimm said:


> Lochaber Marathon yesterday - my first. 3 hours 27 minutes. Quite pleased with that. My legs were very sore yesterday. They are quite stiff now, especially one knee, but not as bad as I thought they would be!


 
That's a great time - well done !

Be warned though, for many people, the second marathon is harder than the first - 'cos they know what it will be like.

It will hurt after a marathon - especially things such as walking upstairs. I find that beer and wine help the recovery process.


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## BrumJim (16 Apr 2012)

baldycyclist said:


> Just did a parkrun yesterday in Durham - really good atmosphere
> 5k in under 26 minutes.
> Might do it every Sat morning as it left me with enough energy for a slow 7 miles today (trying to master plodding at 10 minute mile pace for a marathon (not yet entered))
> Has anyone tried them?


Yes - regular parkrunning here in Birmingham. Too regular. Trying to get back to cycling more.


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## pubrunner (16 Apr 2012)

Pottsy said:


> I've now adopted this Chi-running form, mid-foot strike and flatter, less supportive and minimal shoes (e.g. Saucony Kinvara, Nike Free Run 2) and I'm completely injury free. It's taken over a year of slow progression to a new technique and lots of additional work on core and flexibility (and lots of use of the foam roller to stretch them), but a combination of all these factors has really worked for me.
> .


 
I'm pleased to read of your success - I'm trying exactly the same approach myself.

The best and most minimalist shoes that I've used, are actually a few pairs of beach (aqua) shoes. They cost approx. £10 a pair and have soles that resist stones/thorns etc. There seems to be little difference from using a pair of beach shoes or road racers and I find that I prefer drawstrings to laces. I got the idea from a barefoot running forum - quite a few said that they use them.

http://www.barefootrunner.com/reviews/review-wateraqua-shoes/

http://runningtrainingplan.com/runningpress/2009/15th-august-—-aqua-shoe-test-barefoot-run-6/

This is a very interesting article . . .

http://www.podiatrytoday.com/tackling-10-myths-barefoot-running


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Apr 2012)

Ran my 10.5km circuit tonight at 90%... feeling pretty good all round right now. I have a half-marathon at the end of the month, and I'll try to do the full distance once more before the race itself, probably this Thursday, and then it's tapering time...


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## pubrunner (17 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I have a half-marathon at the end of the month...


 
Considering that you did a sub-40 min 10k, if the course is reasonably fast ( & weather is okay ), I wouldn't be surprised if you manage to get under 90 minutes.

I used to find that a 39 minute 10k, would lead to about 67 minutes for 10 miles and just under 90 for a half. IMO, it is best to start a half, fairly cautiously; perhaps 7 minutes each mile, for the first 3 or 4 miles - 'keeping a lid on it'.

Probably teaching my Grandmother how to suck eggs again  . . .

Keep us posted on how you do; I find it most inspiring, to read how others are making progress.  Have actually started training again . . . . . . . I'd love to get under 40 minutes for 10K, 70 minutes for 10 miles & 90 minutes for a half.


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## Pottsy (17 Apr 2012)

pubrunner said:


> I'm pleased to read of your success - I'm trying exactly the same approach myself.
> 
> The best and most minimalist shoes that I've used, are actually a few pairs of beach (aqua) shoes. They cost approx. £10 a pair and have soles that resist stones/thorns etc. There seems to be little difference from using a pair of beach shoes or road racers and I find that I prefer drawstrings to laces. I got the idea from a barefoot running forum - quite a few said that they use them.
> 
> ...


 
I'm trying not to go too minimal to start, slowly progressing in that direction. It does have the feeling of a fad but I think the concepts are correct, people have to progress slowly though. I cringe at the thought of a heavy and unfit jogger buying some Vibram 5 fingers and setting off on a 10 mile first run on concrete 

So I'm going more minimalist than barefoot - the Kinvaras are excellent, still some good cushioning, but a little narrow toe box for me. The Nike Free Run 2 are my current favourites, though it is with some reluctance as I have an aversion to Nike and their cheesy advertising. 

Thanks for the article, it looks good - I'll read it later. 

I'm also with pubrunner in that you should certainly be looking at sub 1:35 for the half Flying_Monkey. If you have a good day then you might break the magic 90 minutes - best of luck.


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## 007fair (17 Apr 2012)

fimm said:


> Thank you.
> The only other race I've entered is Lochore Meadows Sprint Tri in June. I want to have a bit of a break from running as my legs have suffered a bit in the run-up to the marathon - I've been managing ITB issues. My plan is to try and fit in some more hillwalking around my boyfriend's preparation for the West Highland Way race in June...
> 
> Incidentally I adopted a run:walk startegy - run for 14 minutes, power-walk for 1 minute, repeat. It definitely worked for me.


 
Interesting ... I ran 1 marathon which I was not quite ready for and broke down at 20 miles Walked for a bit, recovered somewhat, then finished in 4:15
But I felt it was not so much tiredness that made me stop but all over body seizure (!) brought on by the monotonous jogging movement. The minute I started walking (a fast walk probably about the speed I was jogging at that point ) I felt pretty OK and started to recover. I think the walk run thing would have been a good idea. 3:30 is a dream time for me ! congrats.

I'm signed up for lochore too This will be my first Tri and first time in OW ... bit nervious about that swim 
I'll see you there - I'll be the one with the frog in his mouth. Fairly easy to spot .


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## Flying_Monkey (17 Apr 2012)

pubrunner said:


> Considering that you did a sub-40 min 10k, if the course is reasonably fast ( & weather is okay ), I wouldn't be surprised if you manage to get under 90 minutes.
> 
> I used to find that a 39 minute 10k, would lead to about 67 minutes for 10 miles and just under 90 for a half. IMO, it is best to start a half, fairly cautiously; perhaps 7 minutes each mile, for the first 3 or 4 miles - 'keeping a lid on it'.
> 
> ...


 
That's very useful advice, thanks! I do tend to be a consistent pace runner, but with this distance I know from experience I should leave more in the tank. The last 1/2 I did (couple of years ago), I went out way too fast, strained something in my thigh at around 10 miles and had a very unpleasant and slow last section, finishing in 1.46. So I think I will be happy with anything under 1.40. I was in quite poor shape then though, and I think 1.30 would not be impossible now, depending on the conditions on the day.


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## Flying_Monkey (22 Apr 2012)

Well, I ran a hard 10.5km loop in training on Friday morning and was well under 40 minutes and still within myself. So maybe a 1.30 for the half is possible... Depending on the weather, tomorrow I will either run a 90% half or do a 52k/10.5k brick.


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## Pottsy (22 Apr 2012)

I'm off out on the bike to watch the London Runners in a moment. Always great for inspiration. 

Yesterday I did a Chi Running course just near to where I live. Very interesting. I read the book a couple of years ago and have been practicing the techniques already, but you can't beat an expert showing you and videoing you. I can thoroughly recommend it, particularly for frequently injured runners.


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Apr 2012)

A half-and-half 15km last night - the first half easy and the second half race pace. Just under 1.10, so I am feeling much more confident about doing 1.30 on Sunday. It all depends on the wind though. The race is an out and back course and if the wind is fiercely against you in the first half it can really sap your energy and even with the wind behind you in the second half, it will not help much.


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## pubrunner (26 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> I am feeling much more confident about doing 1.30 on Sunday. quote]
> 
> Even(ish) effort is the key, imo.
> 
> ...


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Apr 2012)

Great advice, Pubrunner, I just have to convert it all into kilometres! 

I was thinking along not entirely dissimilar lines whilst I was out yesterday. To go sub-1.30, I need to do an average of 4.17/km. I was planning on starting out in around 4.30 pace, upping it to 4.15 after around 5km, and then keeping in at 4.10 from 10-20 km before running a final km and bit in 4. I think I might run better doing steady 4.12s all the way from 5-20km - we shall see.


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## pubrunner (26 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> To go sub-1.30, I need to do an average of 4.17/km. I was planning on *starting out in around 4.30 pace* .


 
That sounds sensible pacing. Many times in the past, I've set off faster than I should have done - in the belief that I was better than I actually was; of course a few miles down the road, I'd be paying the price.



Flying_Monkey said:


> To go sub-1.30, I need to do an average of 4.17/km. I was planning on starting out in around 4.30 pace, upping it to 4.15 after around 5km, and then keeping in at 4.10 from 10-20 km before running a final km and bit in 4. I think I might run better doing steady 4.12s all the way from 5-20km - we shall see.


 
The important thing, is not to inject too much extra speed at any one time - or it'll cost you at some stage. I think that after you've been running for 60-70 minutes, you should feel you have a little left in the tank in reserve, rather than painfully hanging on to a slowing pace.

When is the race ?


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## Flying_Monkey (26 Apr 2012)

Sunday.


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## pubrunner (28 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Sunday.


 
Have a good run !

'Go for it' - in a controlled way  , unleash what's left in the tank, at about 15K.

If *all* goes well and it ain't too windy, I'm predicting 1:29:25.


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## Flying_Monkey (28 Apr 2012)

pubrunner said:


> If *all* goes well and it ain't too windy, I'm predicting 1:29:25.


 
Thanks, I'd be very happy with that!


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## pubrunner (29 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Sunday.


 
. . . . . . here in the foothills of the Berwyns, there are very high winds and persistant, heavy rain. Hasn't stopped my missus going out on her bike though  . . . . . . . whilst I'm skulking inside in the warmth.

Hope you have better conditions for your Half.


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## Flying_Monkey (29 Apr 2012)

*Half-marathon result: 1.32.07 - a couple of minutes slower than I had hoped, but the weather was much hotter than the forecast and I overdressed, which definitely cost me in the last 3-4km, when I slowed down rather than speeding up. Still, I am quite happy. 27th out of 230 FWIW, and 6th in my age group - the winner got 1.10!*


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## pubrunner (30 Apr 2012)

Flying_Monkey said:


> *Half-marathon result: 1.32.07 - a couple of minutes slower than I had hoped, but the weather was much hotter than the forecast and I overdressed, which definitely cost me in the last 3-4km, when I slowed down rather than speeding up. Still, I am quite happy. 27th out of 230 FWIW, and 6th in my age group - the winner got 1.10!*


 
It sounds as if you had a good run ! Your time must be *very* close to 7 minutes per mile . . . never could get used to kilometres .

Importantly, you've put down a marker for yourself and a sound platfom from which to work; I'd suggest doing a few 5 & 10Ks, before doing another Half.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be highly motivated and looking forward to every training run & race. It is a great situation in which to be and frankly, I'm most envious. I'd love to be doing those sorts of times again - and *know* that there are improvements to come. Of course, it'd take a great deal of work & commitment to get there. (Note to self - get out and train, you fat, lazy b*st*rd ).



Flying_Monkey said:


> * . . . 27th out of 230 FWIW, and 6th in my age group - the winner got 1.10!*


 
Was the 1.10 the overall winner, or the winner in your age group ?



Flying_Monkey said:


> *. . . . . . . the weather was much hotter than the forecast and I overdressed,!*


 
Be thankful, that you didn't do the Manchester Marathon, which was held yesterday. The weather was so bad (high winds & rain), that out of (approx.) 8,000 entrants; just 4,500 started the race and quite a few 'dropped out' after a few miles.


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## Flying_Monkey (30 Apr 2012)

pubrunner said:


> I'd suggest doing a few 5 & 10Ks, before doing another Half.


 
I generally run 10k races, but I am actually getting the feeling that I am better at 5k. My next race is actually a 10.5km trail run in 2 weeks (for shoots and giggles) and then I have an 8k road race at the beginning of June. (This is also when the triathlons start... got a couple of sprint tris and then an Olympic, an unusual length long course, another Oly, and then a Half-Ironman. But those are for another thread.)



> Was the 1.10 the overall winner, or the winner in your age group ?


 
Overall. I think the top person in my age group got 1.20. It wasn't a national standard race, but the winner was a serious university runner. By comparison, the winner of the half in Montreal, which is a national standard race, the same day got 1.05, but I would have scraped the Top 250 in that one, rather than the Top 25!


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## Flying_Monkey (12 May 2012)

10k trail run this Sunday - much my favourite kind of race, but there aren't many of them around here.


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## xxmimixx (14 May 2012)

I did a 10m run yesterday, first 6m were not easy, some non tarmaced road, some on the road, some cross country. With the sun beaming on my head I had a light heat stroke, my body was boiling hot all day. Got a little tan on my face so Im not complaining. it was my second 10miler race thsi year and did it 5min quicker tahn the first one in April , did yesterday's one in 1hr 29min  very happy with that


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## Flying_Monkey (15 May 2012)

I ran about 8km today, but I did most of it as intervals - for first 3km, I did 100m sprints followed by about 200m of slow jogging 10 times. Then I did about 3km at a slowly increasing pace, with some variation of the kind of running method (on toes, high-stepping, extending the pull back etc.). Then 5 hill intervals (not quite sure how much it was exactly - I just sprinted up and then jogged down a small hill - probably about 1km total). Then I ran the 1km home. Felt good. I will do this once a week from now on as part of my rotation, gradually increasing the number of hill intervals in particular.


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## Scruffmonster (16 May 2012)

Pottsy said:


> I'm trying not to go too minimal to start, slowly progressing in that direction. It does have the feeling of a fad but I think the concepts are correct, people have to progress slowly though.
> 
> So I'm going more minimalist than barefoot - the Kinvaras are excellent, still some good cushioning, but a little narrow toe box for me. The Nike Free Run 2 are my current favourites, though it is with some reluctance as I have an aversion to Nike and their cheesy advertising.


 
I do wish that people wouldn't use the word fad. This is not a new concept. If everyone watched athletics with a keener eye they'd learn how to run right. Running shoes have been sold for the last 30 years as a form of protection. Big soles, all this b0llocks talk of 'pronation support' and such. It's all nonsense.

Watch an Athletics meet. Any race, any distance, any year you like. You'll see people running with excellent form. Landing soft, minimal contact time, lots of hip extension, forward lean, high cadence.

People nowadays need to apportion a cost to something. 'I'm spending £3500 on a bike to go faster', 'I need more carbon'. The best money you'll ever spend is on developing form and technique. Swimming Coaching, A proper Bike Fit, Running Coaching(*). All will help more than a £500 wetsuit, £10k bike or £250 shoes.

Sorry, it's a bugbear of mine.

With regards to shoes, both the Kinvara and Nike Free's are very soft. If you're still transitioning, try and pick up a pair of Nike Streak XC's. A far more responsive shoe. Maintains cushioning, but lets your foot feel a little more.

* - I do not mean a gait analysis


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## pubrunner (16 May 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> I do wish that people wouldn't use the word fad. This is not a new concept. If everyone watched athletics with a keener eye they'd learn how to run right. Running shoes have been sold for the last 30 years as a form of protection. Big soles, all this b0llocks talk of 'pronation support' and such. It's all nonsense.
> 
> Watch an Athletics meet. Any race, any distance, any year you like. You'll see people running with excellent form. Landing soft, minimal contact time, lots of hip extension, forward lean, high cadence.
> 
> People nowadays need to apportion a cost to something. 'I'm spending £3500 on a bike to go faster', 'I need more carbon'. The best money you'll ever spend is on developing form and technique. Swimming Coaching, A proper Bike Fit, Running Coaching(*). All will help more than a £500 wetsuit, £10k bike or £250 shoes.


 
Great posting, Scruffmonster !

I read a piece of research recently, which suggested that there is a correlation between expensive running shoes with mega-padding and an increased incidence of injuries.



Scruffmonster said:


> With regards to shoes, both the Kinvara and Nike Free's are very soft. If you're still transitioning, try and pick up a pair of Nike Streak XC's. A far more responsive shoe. Maintains cushioning, but lets your foot feel a little more.


 
No need to spend so much - I frequently run in beach or deck shoes; they have a thin, but solid sole, which resist thorns etc., and they are *very* flexible. My running style has gone back to what it was many years ago, when I was running well.

It must be said though, that any change to 'barefoot running' needs to be done very gradually.


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## Scruffmonster (16 May 2012)

pubrunner said:


> Great posting, Scruffmonster !
> 
> I read a piece of research recently, which suggested that there is a correlation between expensive running shoes with mega-padding and an increased incidence of injuries.
> 
> ...


 
The funniest thing about the arms race in shoes is that injuries occur less as the shoe wears out. As the EVA breaks down and hardens, the foot begins to get more feedback and generally improves form. But because people never wash their shoes* they get smelly, the shoe shops tell people that shoes only last 500 miles, they buy new ones, feel and feedback is removed again and injuries flare up.

I only recommend the Streak XC as you can pick it up for about $30 (on sale) and it will last north of 1500 miles. It's basically a 3.5mm drop sole and a bit of mesh. After 1500 miles the mesh will get a bit saggy but they're good for 3 years of 50 mile weeks. They're also a lot more breathable than a deck shoe. But I completely understand running in those. Whatever works basically.

This is for anyone that ever believes the pronation sh1t trotted out in running stores...


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## Pottsy (16 May 2012)

Scruffmonster said:


> I do wish that people wouldn't use the word fad. This is not a new concept. If everyone watched athletics with a keener eye they'd learn how to run right. Running shoes have been sold for the last 30 years as a form of protection. Big soles, all this b0llocks talk of 'pronation support' and such. It's all nonsense.
> 
> Watch an Athletics meet. Any race, any distance, any year you like. You'll see people running with excellent form. Landing soft, minimal contact time, lots of hip extension, forward lean, high cadence.
> 
> ...


 
I do agree actually Scruffmonster and my use of the term 'fad' was perhaps a bit flippant. I more meant flavour of the month - it's what the mags, websites, shoe manufacturers etc. are all talking about. As you say, good form and running correctly are the most important elements and always have been. 

I completed a day course on Chi-running technique recently and some good instruction and video analysis was very interesting and extremely useful, more so than just buying a new pair of shoes. 

Having said that I'll take a look at those Nike Streak XC's. 

Anway, tapering this week for me, lots of rest and good food, just a couple of shorts runs and a pilates session. This Sunday I've got my marathon. Wish me luck!


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## Scruffmonster (16 May 2012)

Good Luck dude.

The 'I do wish people wouldnt...' wasn't aimed at you directly. It was at everything you mentioned.

In short;

- A standard running shoe enables you to learn to run the wrong way, and run to 90% of your speed potential.
- A zero drop shoe (and to a lesser extent, shoes with minimal heel-toe offset) _helps_ you to learn to run the right way, and run to 100% of your potential.

Once you learn wrong, you keep it. If enough people do this, the Right way is looked upon as an imposter.

It has NOTHING to do with shoes, and EVERYTHING to do with form. Running correctly puts impact forces into parts of the body that are built for it, tendons & muscles, and takes them away from areas that are not; Heels, Knees & Hips (via a straight overstriding leg). Running Barefoot teaches this lesson in a matter of 30 seconds. But because it seems to be a little bit weird, it's deemed to be wrong. Move the forces of impact to the right places, become more efficient, get injured less, spend more time on your feet, get faster. It's the most simple of virtuous circles.

Anyways, off my soap box. Home time.


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## pubrunner (16 May 2012)

Pottsy said:


> I do agree actually Scruffmonster and my use of the term 'fad' was perhaps a bit flippant. I more meant flavour of the month - it's what the mags, websites, shoe manufacturers etc. are all talking about. As you say, good form and running correctly are the most important elements and always have been.
> 
> I completed a day course on Chi-running technique recently and some good instruction and video analysis was very interesting and extremely useful, more so than just buying a new pair of shoes.
> 
> ...


 
Best of luck, Pottsy - which marathon is it ?

What time are you going for ?


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## Pottsy (16 May 2012)

pubrunner said:


> Best of luck, Pottsy - which marathon is it ?
> 
> What time are you going for ?


 
Cheers for that. 

It's The Richmond Park Marathon. Only in its second year and quite a small field, about 400 entries last year I think though I suspect more this year. 

Firstly to get the excuses in , it's hilly around Richmond Park (as many cyclists here will acknowledge) and it's mostly on the track around the edge and some grassy stretches - so I'll be happy with something sub-4 hour. I'll be setting off at 9 min/miles to aim to get just under that and picking it up if I feel good still after 18-20 miles.

Fingers crossed for a bright and cool day!


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## Flying_Monkey (16 May 2012)

Good luck, Pottsy!


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## Pottsy (21 May 2012)

Well it went pretty well I think. It was mainly off-road and very hilly so I was pleased to just get under my aimed 4 hour time with a 3:56. There were a lot of people who hadn't run there before struggling towards the end. 

My legs are feeling surprisingly ok today, no major niggles, just a little bit of DOMS but nothing major. I'm treating myself to a sports massage later in the week which should help loosen then up. 

So I'll have a break from the long distances now for the summer. I've entered a 10k in August so I can concentrate now on some speed work - tempo and interval runs.


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## Flying_Monkey (21 May 2012)

Excellent - well done!


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## fimm (29 May 2012)

Well done Pottsy!

Nothing much to report from me - I didn't run for a month after the marathon (!) I'd intended to have a bit of a break and then a couple of planned easy runs didn't happen for one reason or another. Getting back into running was a bit difficult to start with, but I'm enjoying it again now. I am hoping that I don't have to run the last 20 miles of the WHW with my boyfriend, though, as I think that would hurt.


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Jun 2012)

31.53 for my 8k race yesterday. It is 30 seconds faster than I did the same race last year, but I was hoping for much better (between 30 and 31 minutes). However, I seem to have some kind of virus, so that could explain the slightly sluggish performance.


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## Flying_Monkey (1 Jul 2012)

My local 10k today. It's actually more than 10k and it's hilly and hot. 42 minutes had me 5th and 1st in my age group. But I did the ligaments in my right knee (long-term problem). Won't be running for a couple of weeks.


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## fimm (3 Jul 2012)

Oh, well done on the time and position (more relevant with a tough course), and bad luck on the injury!


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## Pottsy (12 Jul 2012)

If anyone missed this program on Kenyan athletics a day or two ago, I thought it was excellent. The ideas fitted very well with the Chi Running that I practice. I've put the BBC iPlayer link in so you can click through and watch it. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=born to run

Enjoy and I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of anyone else.


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## pubrunner (12 Jul 2012)

Pottsy said:


> If anyone missed this program on Kenyan athletics a day or two ago, I thought it was excellent. The ideas fitted very well with the Chi Running that I practice. I've put the BBC iPlayer link in so you can click through and watch it.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search?q=born to run
> 
> Enjoy and I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of anyone else.


 
A really *excellent* program - possibly the best thing I've seen this year; many thanks for the link !

I strongly recommend that those with an interest in running watch it.


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## fimm (12 Jul 2012)

We watched it and thought it was interesting - not a lot about the actual process of running, if you see what I mean, though the stuff about the core being important was interesting as were the slow, low effort training sessions, where they did mostly drills.


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## Arsen Gere (10 Aug 2012)

Did anyone see Manteo Mitchell running in the relay last night at the Olympics, - with a broken leg !

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/09/london-2012-usa-relay-broken-leg


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## Pottsy (10 Aug 2012)

Arsen Gere said:


> Did anyone see Manteo Mitchell running in the relay last night at the Olympics, - with a broken leg !
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/09/london-2012-usa-relay-broken-leg


 
I saw that. He, apparently, "didn't want to let the rest of the team down". 

Best running moment in the Olympics for me was David Rudisha, 800m WR. How smooth and silky is his technique!?!


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## Arsen Gere (10 Aug 2012)

Pottsy said:


> I saw that. He, apparently, "didn't want to let the rest of the team down".
> 
> Best running moment in the Olympics for me was David Rudisha, 800m WR. How smooth and silky is his technique!?!


 
It's a perfect combination of cadence and stride length to enable him to recover energy lost when his feet hit the ground. I've been experimenting with this using a heart rate monitor and running faster at a constant heart rate. I've had some success I'm trying to work out how to communicate this 'feel' to see if I can get others to improve.


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## Pottsy (10 Aug 2012)

Arsen Gere said:


> It's a perfect combination of cadence and stride length to enable him to recover energy lost when his feet hit the ground. I've been experimenting with this using a heart rate monitor and running faster at a constant heart rate. I've had some success I'm trying to work out how to communicate this 'feel' to see if I can get others to improve.


I think I know what you mean. It's like finding a resonant frequency of a system, or a cadence that perfectly matches the spring and recoil in your leg and body system. At that perfect point it all works with as little energy loss as possible. You feel like you can actually go faster yet be using less energy.


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## LosingFocus (15 Aug 2012)

Talking about running.... what is considered a "decent" time for 5km on roads and 10km on a road/trail split?


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## Pottsy (15 Aug 2012)

Without trying to be evasive, I'd say that's very difficult to answer as the range of paces that we all run at varies so hugely. I would compare against your own previous times in similar races or circumstances (whilst not going for a best time every training run of course). 

So run those distances once and a decent time is to improve slightly on that the next time


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## LosingFocus (15 Aug 2012)

Pottsy said:


> Without trying to be evasive, I'd say that's very difficult to answer as the range of paces that we all run at varies so hugely. I would compare against your own previous times in similar races or circumstances (whilst not going for a best time every training run of course).
> 
> So run those distances once and a decent time is to improve slightly on that the next time


 
Cheers Pottsy. I've managed to get down to 23mins for 5km and 50mins dead this week, knocking 3 mins off my best 5km time and 6mins off my previous best 10km time. Oddly, both times I set my best time I was out for what I thought was a "leisure" run, not pushing it or going for it unitl I noticed it was on pace for a PB. Just wondered if these were considered decent times, or am I tortoise slow?


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## Flying_Monkey (15 Aug 2012)

LosingFocus said:


> Cheers Pottsy. I've managed to get down to 23mins for 5km and 50mins dead this week, knocking 3 mins off my best 5km time and 6mins off my previous best 10km time. Oddly, both times I set my best time I was out for what I thought was a "leisure" run, not pushing it or going for it unitl I noticed it was on pace for a PB. Just wondered if these were considered decent times, or am I tortoise slow?


 
I think you'll find that with you a proper program of training, you can get a lot quicker than this. Whether you want to put the effort in, is another question. I was 40 this year, and I have got to the point where I can run a 5k in 19, a 10k in under 40 and a half-marathon in just over 1.30 - and I feel like there is plenty more to come*. Two years ago, I was doing over 1.45 for the half and over 46 for a 10k. I didn't even do 5k because I thought it was too short and too fast for me. One of the things that changed was that attitude. I have been concentrating more on running shorter distances faster and at the same time running longer distances easier in training. I also run intervals and do hill repetitions. This seems to make me faster at longer distances when it comes to races.

*this is all dependent on whether my knee ligaments will allow me to run seriously again.


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## Arsen Gere (15 Aug 2012)

LosingFocus said:


> Talking about running.... what is considered a "decent" time for 5km on roads and 10km on a road/trail split?


 
http://www.essexroadrunning.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=135

Do a parkrun. You'll get a % time for someone your age. I do them now and again to get a referrence for training. Good fun, easy to setup and do.

Something similar for swimmers is NOWCA. http://www.nowca.org/default.aspx anyone can be a NOWCA swimmer like a park runner. Not many locations yet but looking to expand this.


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## Flying_Monkey (9 Apr 2013)

Time to resurrect this thread...

Regular readers will remember that I messed up my knee ligaments in a 10k last July. I wasn't able to run without pain until the end of the year, and I left it a few months longer just to make sure, and because I was dreading the work required to get back into race shape.

Well, I've started the work now. I'm in Denmark for a couple of months and I've got a great set of routes in a nearby forest. I've been doing a rolling 7k every morning for a couple of weeks with a longer run on the weekend followed by a day off. This week I have just started to alternate my regular route with about 4k + lots of short steep intervals (basically, run up the slope as fast as I can, jog down, and repeat until I can't stand up anymore).

I'm hoping to be in good enough shape to compete when I head back to Japan in June (for the next year). But I can't take my tri bike so it may be running only...


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## gambatte (10 Apr 2013)

Different problem for me. Gut pains whilst running after Xmas. It’s meant next to no running or cycling.
Went to the Doc and she sent me to the local walk in centre for a scan. They found a ‘defect’, small hernia. Strangely on the opposite side to where most of the pain was, but they said there may be one there too, just they can’t see it.
Comedy of errors since then.
Missing paperwork.
Repeated scans.
Appointments with 12 hours notice.
Missing hernias.
“We’ll see you in a month” translating to “The appointment will be in just over 2 months…”
And the old one of trying to get past the medical secretary who is a professional stonewall.
Eventually it’ll get sorted. I’ve had to rearrange plans, miss races. I’m resigned to looking forward to just one race this year. The York Marathon in October. Meantime I’ve got one upset cocker spaniel who’s used to regular 5-20 mile runs.


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## Flying_Monkey (11 Apr 2013)

gambatte said:


> Different problem for me. Gut pains whilst running after Xmas. It’s meant next to no running or cycling. / ...


 
Sorry to hear it. You really seem to have been messed around.


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## pubrunner (11 Apr 2013)

gambatte said:


> Different problem for me. Gut pains whilst running after Xmas. It’s meant next to no running or cycling.
> Went to the Doc and she sent me to the local walk in centre for a scan. They found a ‘defect’, small hernia. Strangely on the opposite side to where most of the pain was, but they said there may be one there too, just they can’t see it.


 
I've every sympathy for you.

I had a hernia op., about 10 years ago. At the time, I was really 'going well' with regard to my running - I was getting placed in (admittedly minor) fell races and regularly running around 17 minutes for 5K.

After the hernia op (which was done by the 'old-fashioned method - non-keyhole), it took me months before I was back running, and I've never regained that level of fitness - partly due to the birth of my son and such calls on my time.

Best of luck and hopefully, you'll be back running soon.


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## rich p (11 Apr 2013)

pubrunner said:


> I've every sympathy for you.
> 
> I had a hernia op., about 10 years ago. At the time, I was really 'going well' with regard to my running - I was getting placed in (admittedly minor) fell races and regularly running around 17 minutes for 5K.
> 
> ...


Was it a C Section then , Pubby?


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## pubrunner (11 Apr 2013)

rich p said:


> Was it a C Section then , Pubby ?


 
Indeed it was . . . . . . . and not only did my running go downhill, but my capacity for real ale & guinness also diminished.


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## Flying_Monkey (4 Jul 2013)

Well, I'm back in Tokyo now until the end of next April. I went out for my first track training session with the Namban Rengo running club last night, down at the Oda Field next to Tange Kenzo's still marvellous 1964 Olympic stadia - in my view, still the best Olympics venues ever built. There's nothing like running alongside great Olympic architecture to get you going! The Oda Field was originally the practice arena for those Olympics. What's amazing is that it is still entirely public and free (including showers and lockers). 

There were a lot of clubs out training, inclduing the Tokyo University sprint team and a competitive walking club, but it still all functioned okay - probably because Tokyo people are so used to doing the best with very crowded spaces. And our club is big too: around 50 people turned out last night. We split into A and B groups, with A being people who aim at 4-minute kilometres or better. I had been intending to join the B group as I am still a long way from fully fit, but then I thought what's the point of aiming low? I should start as I mean to go on. So I joined the A group for 6 x 1000m intervals followed by an intense abs workout. Phew! I kept up fine as it happened and was in the middle of the group, and I felt good today on the morning after.

I like the training schedule a lot. Next week is 3 x 1200, 2 x 1000, then a 400. Week 3 is: 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1000, 800, 600. Week 4 is 12 x 400 (ow, ow, ow... this will hurt most because I am certainly not a sprinter), and the the last Wednesday of the month is a 5km time trial.

Anyway, every Wednesday evening in Tokyo, this is what I'll be doing. I am also running a 5km road loop four mornings a week, increased to either 7.5 or 10km on Saturday and a fast 25-50km riveride bike ride on the Sunday (on my Brompton!). Added together, I should be back to racing fitness - and hopefully race weight - by the autumn, and probably better than I was before.

As a reward, I also checked out my first craft beer bar in Tokyo afterwards, but that's another story... (see the Beer thread in the Café).


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## Arsen Gere (16 Jul 2013)

I'm not the fastest runner but can do a respectable 19 min 5k and around 40 min 10k. But at a standard distance tri recently I won the vet 50 swim, the v50 bike section and was beaten by 8 minutes on the run ! The fastest run split was done by a vet 50. These some of these old blokes can really shift.


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## Flying_Monkey (20 Jul 2013)

I jogged 13k in an hour yesterday and felt very relaxed, and was doing successive 3.45 kilometres in training on Wednesday, so I think I am getting fitness back much quicker than anticipated - certainly dropping the weight fast too.


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## rich p (21 Jul 2013)

That's good going FM.


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## Flying_Monkey (23 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> That's good going FM.


 
Cheers, rich. I guess we'll find out how fast I'm really going in the 5k time trial at the end of the month... I am not looking foward to the 12 x 400s tomorrow night, though. I don't know how it will be paced - same medium-fast speed every time or moderate alternating with fast...


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## rich p (23 Jul 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Cheers, rich. I guess we'll find out how fast I'm really going in the 5k time trial at the end of the month... I am not looking foward to the 12 x 400s tomorrow night, though. I don't know how it will be paced - same medium-fast speed every time or moderate alternating with fast...


God, you're bringing it all back in a not so nice way!
I used to do the track session with Btn & Hove AC once a week. It was always about the same total distance but varied seasonally in the mix of short and long intervals. I hated the 100s and 200s sessions with a vengeance. The winter, 400, 600, 800 mix were more my style. Whatever, they always ended with a mile 'race' where I used to make my gums bleed. Seems nuts to me now!
Are you building up to a tri or is running the end result? My running was purely for racing - I was a crap swimmer and I hadn't discovered cycling.


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## Flying_Monkey (24 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> Are you building up to a tri or is running the end result? My running was purely for racing - I was a crap swimmer and I hadn't discovered cycling.


 
This year, I am only aiming to do a few 10ks, half-marathons and 'ekiden' - road relays, which are very popular in Japan. I am probably not doing any tri's. Too much hassle in terms of the organisation plus I don't have my tri bike here. However, next year, I will certainly be doing tri again, and hopefully as a much better runner. But I need to start swimming again too...


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Jul 2013)

400s are hard. We were aiming for 80 second 400s, with about the same time in between each lap. Of course everyone went off faster in the first two (I did 79 and 76!) and from then on it was 81s and then 83s, until the last of the twelve when I finally dipped under 80 again. Bear in mind that this is also in Tokyo which is still near 30 degrees and 70% humidity in the evening... I think I can probably run consistent sub-80 laps if I keep this up. Next week is the 5k TT... I am aiming for as near to 18 minutes as I can get, but I will be happy with under 19.


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## rich p (27 Jul 2013)

I reckon you'll do 17.56


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> I reckon you'll do 17.56


 
That would mean running consistent (or at least averaged) 86 second laps. I'd be astounded if I managed that.


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## Crackle (27 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> I reckon you'll do 17.56


I could do 16.64


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## rich p (27 Jul 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> That would mean running consistent (or at least averaged) 86 second laps. I'd be astounded if I managed that.


Your training times sound similar to mine, back in the day, and I used to do 36-37 min 10Ks with a best of 34.53. Maybe stamina will play a part and that sort of heat but for 5km, maybe! I'm thinking positive!


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## Flying_Monkey (27 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> Your training times sound similar to mine, back in the day, and I used to do 36-37 min 10Ks with a best of 34.53. Maybe stamina will play a part and that sort of heat but for 5km, maybe! I'm thinking positive!


 
The difference is that I'm 41 already, I only started running seriously 3 years ago, and I'm yet to run under 38 minutes for a 10k.


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## rich p (27 Jul 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> The difference is that I'm 41 already, I only started running seriously 3 years ago, and I'm yet to run under 38 minutes for a 10k.


Okay!
I was 40 and started running at 35 so there's hope for you yet!
Whatever though, good luck!


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## Flying_Monkey (31 Jul 2013)

Well, that was horrible. The temperature is climbing again and the humidity was absurd last night for the 5k track time trial. I gave up all hope of getting anywhere near a PB as did everyone else. The best times, for those who usually run 17.something were around 18.30, and I managed 20.04. I could have gone quite a bit quicker had I realised how close I was to 20, but I couldn't find my watch before I went out, so I was relying on pacing another member who I know is usually just a little bit quicker than me. Anyway, that's my baseline for the year. It won't get worse than that.


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## rich p (1 Aug 2013)

Heat and humidity are not conducive to good times. It's like running in warm soup. Better luck (and conditions) next time!
My PB in the 10k was set in November. I also once ended up in an ambulance on a very hot, humid 5 miler which I still find hard to believe.


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