# Effectiveness of Glyphosate mixed with hard water



## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

I will be using glyphosate later today and learned something this morning. 
Hard water, like in parts of the south east and Staffordshire with Ca ²+ or Mg ²+ levels above 400ppm reduces the effectiveness of Glyphosate. The glyphosate bonds to the minerals in a cation reaction and what gets sprayed on the leaves is less biologically active. 
If you must use this evil stuff and live in a hard water area you will get more bang for your buck if you mix with demineralised water. 
It's been a long time but I think the pertinent information on what's in your water can be found on your utility companies website.


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## HMS_Dave (8 Apr 2021)

I'm interested. My toilet bowl constantly builds up with mineralisation here in staffs...


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## mistyoptic (8 Apr 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> I'm interested. My toilet bowl constantly builds up with mineralisation here in staffs...


I'm not sure that's an approved use for Glyphosate ;-)


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

Evil stuff just arrived as I was processing water through a resin ion exchange filter. 
GLS driver asked me what the funny looking tubes are for, magic I said. 
Time to attack nature.


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## PeteXXX (8 Apr 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> I'm interested. My toilet bowl constantly builds up with mineralisation here in staffs...


Glysophate is for weeds, not wee's


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## Ridgeway (8 Apr 2021)

Yes demin or RO water would be much better in this case. The phosphate (Po4) in the glyphosate is attracted to the calcium and mag (more the calcium) and it then will not do it's job, or less effectively at least.

I use the same principal to strip Po4 from water here (here i use Lanthanum chloride)


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## Profpointy (8 Apr 2021)

I didn't know that, and whilst it's been pretty effective, I'm having difficulty killiing ivy growing on our back wall despite several sprayings. We've a 30' wall at the end of the garden so I'm keen the ivy doesn't damage it and cause the garden, and more importantly the house to march down the hill into the gardens below


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## PK99 (8 Apr 2021)

Profpointy said:


> I didn't know that, and whilst it's been pretty effective, I'm having difficulty killiing ivy growing on our back wall despite several sprayings. We've a 30' wall at the end of the garden so I'm keen the ivy doesn't damage it and cause the garden, and more importantly the house to march down the hill into the gardens below



Cut the stem low down.

Top growth will die.

Spray regrowth from the stump as often as needed


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## HMS_Dave (8 Apr 2021)

I don't do gardens. Back to the drawing board for me then...


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Yes demin or RO water would be much better in this case. The phosphate (Po4) in the glyphosate is attracted to the calcium and mag (more the calcium) and it then will not do it's job, or less effectively at least.
> 
> I use the same principal to strip Po4 from water here (here i use Lanthanum chloride)


I use this, reef aquarium types use them. It will strip minerals from +400ppm water to 2ppm but it needs to be regenerated after only 100L throughput. Hydrochloric at 15% for the cationic and anything caustic at 20% for the anionic.
I normally use it to finish water for a water jet cutting machine or water for the clothes iron.
It's been a long time since I was able to deploy glyphosate due to the ban on retail sales here.
I am going to enjoy this. 
I would prefer 120M3 of chipped wood mulch to suppress the weeds but I need a lottery win for that.


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

PK99 said:


> Cut the stem low down.
> 
> Top growth will die.
> 
> Spray regrowth from the stump as often as needed


My neighbour drilled the stump in several places and injected glyphosate in intervals at some ludicrous strength, 480g/L I think, undiluted. 
It certainly worked


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## Profpointy (8 Apr 2021)

PK99 said:


> Cut the stem low down.
> 
> Top growth will die.
> 
> Spray regrowth from the stump as often as needed



to cut the stem down low, I'd need to get my abseil gear out. Whilst I do have the kit, there isn't much I can safely belay to. Here's me fixing my boiler chimney


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## Ridgeway (8 Apr 2021)

randynewmanscat said:


> I use this, reef aquarium types use them. It will strip minerals from +400ppm water to 2ppm but it needs to be regenerated after only 100L throughput. Hydrochloric at 15% for the cationic and anything caustic at 20% for the anionic.
> I normally use it to finish water for a water jet cutting machine or water for the clothes iron.
> It's been a long time since I was able to deploy glyphosate due to the ban on retail sales here.
> I am going to enjoy this.
> ...



Yes that's my application: reef aquarium. I produce around 15,000 ltrs of zero TDS water before i change the resin though


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

In one week and I shall survey the carnage.


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

Profpointy said:


> I didn't know that, and whilst it's been pretty effective, I'm having difficulty killiing ivy growing on our back wall despite several sprayings. We've a 30' wall at the end of the garden so I'm keen the ivy doesn't damage it and cause the garden, and more importantly the house to march down the hill into the gardens below


This is Boston Ivy which is not a true Ivy. It attaches itself with tiny sucker hands unlike the true Ivy's. 




This is the base of my Ivy, it's on a gable wall.





Ivy gets a bad rap, only in unsound mortar and copings would it cause problems.


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## Profpointy (8 Apr 2021)

randynewmanscat said:


> This is Boston Ivy which is not a true Ivy. It attaches itself with tiny sucker hands unlike the true Ivy's.
> View attachment 582932
> 
> This is the base of my Ivy, it's on a gable wall.
> ...



However I'm far from confident the mortar in my back wall is at all sound! My was maybe the ivy was holding the wall up. In any case we've got proper ivy rather than the rather pretty not-ivy you shiw


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

Profpointy said:


> However I'm far from confident the mortar in my back wall is at all sound! My was maybe the ivy was holding the wall up. In any case we've got proper ivy rather than the rather pretty not-ivy you shiw


You should show it the door if the pointing is blowing out in places. It doesn't fair well against glyphosate. 
Don't buy from the DIY store, it's weedy stuff  and sold at extortionate prices.
Order a litre of 360g/L or stronger from an agricultural suppliers, well cheap. You can buy 5L of Gallup or Barclay 360 for £30. I think a litre will set you back £17.
A litre probably has the same content as a shelf full of the water that passes for glyphosate at B&Q. 
What you don't use your friends will greatly thank you for. A litre of 360 or 450 at 20/25ml per litre of water is enough to kill every plant in a 50M radius of your house. 
Oh! And as per my original post, use demin water to wring the best out of it!


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## classic33 (8 Apr 2021)

Profpointy said:


> to cut the stem down low, I'd need to get my abseil gear out. Whilst I do have the kit, there isn't much I can safely belay to. Here's me fixing my boiler chimney
> 
> View attachment 582891


Scaffolding pole inside and across the window. Old blanket either end to prevent it marking the wall.


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## Profpointy (8 Apr 2021)

classic33 said:


> Scaffolding pole inside and across the window. Old blanket either end to prevent it marking the wall.



and the rope all the way down to the end of the garden, and through a small hole I'd have to drill in the wooden fence, and I'd have to climb the wooden fence before getting onto the rope to abb down!

Joking aside I have abseiled out of a window belayed to a couple of 2x4 across a doorway. For my boiler job I stuck some bolts in the house wall; the backup was to my bed.


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## Profpointy (8 Apr 2021)

randynewmanscat said:


> You should show it the door if the pointing is blowing out in places. It doesn't fair well against glyphosate.
> Don't buy from the DIY store, it's weedy stuff  and sold at extortionate prices.
> Order a litre of 360g/L or stronger from an agricultural suppliers, well cheap. You can buy 5L of Gallup or Barclay 360 for £30. I think a litre will set you back £17.
> A litre probably has the same content as a shelf full of the water that passes for glyphosate at B&Q.
> ...



I bought a gallon of the good stuff. you dilute it 100:1 or summat, so it'll last me a while !


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

Profpointy said:


> I bought a gallon of the good stuff. you dilute it 100:1 or summat, so it'll last me a while !


Aye it goes a long way! For two years I wasted a lot of money on pelargonic acid and agricultural vinegar. The vinegar was effective against none waxy broadleaf only. Pelargonic acid is ineffective, it may as well be a placebo. 
The farming lobby is hanging on to glyphosate, it was supposed to be gone this year but I can see that can being kicked down the road. 
Productivity goes down and prices go up with current intensive methods if it is phased out. 
A lot of the glyphosate hatred in Europe stems from the notion of Glyphosate resistant GM crops rather than what harm it may be doing to pollinators which is rather selfish and sad. 
I don't like using the stuff but there is nothing as effective.


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## slowmotion (8 Apr 2021)

There was a really bad invasion of Russian vine some years ago. It came from a garden several houses away. In those days, RoundUp was glyphosate-based so I sprayed the invader growing up the side of our house with a triple overdose. Not much happened for about ten days before it started to yellow and get satisfyingly sick, before progressively dying back towards its remote source. Brilliant stuff, and that was in London which has reasonably hard water.


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

slowmotion said:


> Brilliant stuff, and that was London which has reasonably hard water.


For sure its effective even at reduced biological activity. It's when you deploy it on large areas that it's economically sound to have 100% of the product in use and I dislike using it so having all of it working ultimately means using less.


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## randynewmanscat (8 Apr 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> I'm interested. My toilet bowl constantly builds up with mineralisation here in staffs...


Paintbrush and hydrochloric acid after shutting the water off and flushing the cistern and bog bowl down. 
Avoid the fumes, they aren't very dangerous but stink. 
Keep it reasonably quick as the acid can bite the glaze. 
Don't do this if you have a private sewage system unless you neutralise the contents with a base like washing soda to balance the pH out. Fine if its mains sewage, your contribution will be infinitesimally small. 
HCI clears limescale like the proverbial dose of salts.


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## randynewmanscat (19 Apr 2021)

Eleven full days until death of targets. The daytime temperature was low, still did the job but five days later than normal. 
Glyphosate and its targets work better together at >60°F.


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