# Is electric assist cycling not 'real' cycling?



## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

I've put this here rather than the e-bikes subforum because I'm more interested in how it's viewed by non-e-bike riders in general and a rather broader audience than only club cyclists.

Recently a couple of people have complained about electric assist bikes not being 'proper' cycling or that they're only valid if their users are disabled in some way either by age or physical disability.

I'm of the opinion if someone wants to ride assisted for whatever reason, that's their choice and I'm glad there is a choice. My only reservation is - due to a total lack of policing - the laws around electric assisted bikes will be flouted by some, though I suspect the effect will be minimal from a cycling perspective.

Is the subject of validity of pedelec use worth discussing openly without descending into factional chaos?


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## Drago (14 Dec 2016)

It simply doesn't appeal to me. Fitness and the physical challenge is a large part of the reason I cycle in the first place. Nevertheless, as I become old/infirm/incontinent that view may change.

However, if you get a boner for electric assist then all power to you.


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## Sixmile (14 Dec 2016)

I give a guy in work a bit of banter for his but I don't mind them in all honesty. Better than the other solution of a car.

Would I be right in thinking e-bikes are subject to speed limits but pedal cycles aren't?


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## Yellow Saddle (14 Dec 2016)

I prefer the gentle soft hum of a two-stroke at full bore, but that's just me.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> Is the subject of validity of pedelec use worth discussing openly



Probably not.

I don't see any problem with them, it's horses for courses and anything that encourages active travel as an option is to be welcomed. Yes, they are attractive to people with mobility problems through age or disability but maybe someone just prefers not breaking into a sweat to get to work. And there should be public charging points and at places of work to encourage more use of them.


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## youngoldbloke (14 Dec 2016)

Generally open minded about this. I ride with a group that regularly includes one member on a Giant e-bike - mountain bike - and I wish I could get a tow sometimes too. Up to a point, fine, but where do we draw the line? What happens when the majority are on e-bikes?.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (14 Dec 2016)

Nothing wrong with them in my opinion.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Dec 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> where do we draw the line? What happens when the majority are on e-bikes



What are you afraid will happen?


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

Sixmile said:


> Would I be right in thinking e-bikes are subject to speed limits but pedal cycles aren't?


Not entirely, I think. I think e-bike electric assist has to cut out at 15mph, so it's effectively a heavy pedal cycle by the time it gets to any normal speed limit (excluding the debatable freaks like royal parks).


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## Yellow Saddle (14 Dec 2016)

I would not mind having one in my stable. I would love to go out for rides with some of my non-riding friends. Just putting them on another pedal bike will not work since we won't get very far and the complaints will eventually work on my nerves. But give them an e-bike and you have a couple of possible ride companions. Obviously I'll fit the e-bike with a carrier for a growler of IPA in case we get thirsty.

Nothing wrong with them and I can think of several niches where they are perfectly valid modes of transport.


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## youngoldbloke (14 Dec 2016)

glasgowcyclist said:


> What are you afraid will happen?


The nature of group cycling might change completely? There will inevitably be a split into 'e-groups' and traditionalists?


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## SpokeyDokey (14 Dec 2016)

I know two very fit guys who mountain bike. They have a son each both in their mid-teens who used to struggle on tougher ascents and with the distances they cover.

Both sons now have Cube mountain e-bikes and just use the electric power when things get a bit too much for them.

Similarly, we have an older lady in our village who happily cycles on the flat and mild inclines but just cannot cope with the steeper ascents here in The Lakes. She has a Trek Prime (?) I think it's called and loves it as she can go for longer rides than she would otherwise be able to do.

To me they seem like an ideal solution for some people.


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## ColinJ (14 Dec 2016)

@Pale Rider has used his e-bike on some really challenging rides with me and assorted other CycleChatters this year. I'm sure that he would be the first to admit that he wouldn't have been able to join us without a bit of help from the motor, but it was obvious that he was still having to put a lot of his own energy into the rides as well.

The only time that it could be a problem would be if the other riders wanted to ride at a speed significantly beyond the 15 mph assistance limit of the motor.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> The nature of group cycling might change completely? There will inevitably be a split into 'e-groups' and traditionalists?


In addition to the current splits between training/racing groups, sportive-rules, traditionalists, anything-goes freewheeling and so on?


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## Ian H (14 Dec 2016)

It's a bit like owning a low-powered moped. 
My local shop gave up selling them because the cheap ones were too unreliable and the market for expensive ones too small. On the other hand, the guy selling only e-bikes from the industrial estate has got by for several years.
I know of a few elderly and/or infirm cyclists who have resorted to battery-power just to keep pedalling. There are also a few round here who appear to be just e-bike riders.


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## nickyboy (14 Dec 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> The nature of group cycling might change completely? There will inevitably be a split into 'e-groups' and traditionalists?



I guess that's already happened with MTBs and it doesn't seem to have done "road cycling" any harm. I think what you'll get are conventional cyclists switching to power assist when they can't manage unpowered for whatever reason. And new participants who are put off by the physical effort of cycling. No reason why these groups can't operate in a homogenous way (except I can't keep up on the hills)


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

Yellow Saddle said:


> I prefer the gentle soft hum of a two-stroke at full bore, but that's just me.


I prefer the loud bang of a two-bore at full stroke to that!


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## youngoldbloke (14 Dec 2016)

nickyboy said:


> I guess that's already happened with MTBs and it doesn't seem to have done "road cycling" any harm. I think what you'll get are conventional cyclists switching to power assist when they can't manage unpowered for whatever reason. And new participants who are put off by the physical effort of cycling. No reason why these groups can't operate in a homogenous way (except I can't keep up on the hills)


Expect your right - we're in a transition stage. Once e-bikes are more common they'll have their own enthusiast groups, as well as all the everyday users.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Dec 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> The nature of group cycling might change completely? There will inevitably be a split into 'e-groups' and traditionalists?



So cycling participation will go up? Sounds good to me.

People will ride with others of a similar mindset, regardless of whether it's on full carbon, Pashleys, recumbents or pedelecs or a mix of everything.


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## Tin Pot (14 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> I've put this here rather than the e-bikes subforum because I'm more interested in how it's viewed by non-e-bike riders in general and a rather broader audience than only club cyclists.
> 
> Recently a couple of people have complained about electric assist bikes not being 'proper' cycling or that they're only valid if their users are disabled in some way either by age or physical disability.
> 
> ...



Theyre speciality kit, not for regular daily cycling use. If you have special needs, they might fit the mark.

A bicycle is in itself a labour saving device, and one of the most efficient out there.

If an overweight middle aged man like myself used one id call him a lazy daffodil.


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## jonny jeez (14 Dec 2016)

Of course it's cycling.

But is it sport? 

Cycling I mean.


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## Debade (14 Dec 2016)

I'm pro-active transportation person. If e-bikes keeps/gets people on two wheels with some level of exercise, lower contribution to pollution, etc. than I think it is a perfect solution.


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## Accy cyclist (14 Dec 2016)

I haven't been out on a proper club run since i broke my hip in August and again in November, I just wouldn't be able to keep up with them due to immobility and a loss of fitness. If i could afford one of these http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bi...suTcsX_rE33L8POk1s0DoFF6BU1YyesYFsaAlmd8P8HAQ I'd be out with them. There'd be no shame in using one if you needed it. I wouldn't like to push one though if it broke down!


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## hopless500 (14 Dec 2016)

I've been toying with the idea.
Mainly because Mr Hop won't contemplate me going on another cycling tour that he is on as he doesn't like going at my speed. (as I can do 65 miles a day happily, averaging 12mph tops [when fit] I think he's a bit of a **# , but there you are). 
Therefore as I would like to be able to go on another cycling holiday with my friends, I do think the extra oomph would make a big difference, particularly on hills.


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## welsh dragon (14 Dec 2016)

It's no one else's business really wether you know people who don't like them, or think it Isn't proper cycling. They can spend their money on whatever they want. most people who buy ebikes don't want to cycle with a club anyway .


Buy one or not. RIde with a group or not. Ban them from your group or not. it's all the same. Of course it's cycling. It gets people out, gets them exercising. gets them into the fresh air and that's the main thing .

And don't give a stuff what other people think .


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## Rooster1 (14 Dec 2016)

Me no likey, maybe when i'm 80


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## welsh dragon (14 Dec 2016)

hopless500 said:


> I've been toying with the idea.
> Mainly because Mr Hop won't contemplate me going on another cycling tour that he is on as he doesn't like going at my speed. (as I can do 65 miles a day happily, averaging 12mph tops [when fit] I think he's a bit of a **# , but there you are).
> Therefore as I would like to be able to go on another cycling holiday with my friends, I do think the extra oomph would make a big difference, particularly on hills.




Go for it. they are hellish good fun and will put a bit smile on you're face whenever you ride it.


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## hopless500 (14 Dec 2016)

welsh dragon said:


> Go for it. they are hellish good fun and will put a bit smile on you're face whenever you ride it.


I'm sure I will at some point. My fooked up back stops me pedalling any harder, and will get progressively worse, so an e-bike is in my future.


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## greekonabike (14 Dec 2016)

I've never used an e-bike but would be interested in doing so. I've also heard you can jailbreak the motor for a higher top-speed and I think that may become a problem in the future. I can't help but think that someone will have an accident on a bike with a modified motor and the law will be changed because of it.

GOAB


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

jonny jeez said:


> Of course it's cycling.
> 
> But is it sport?
> 
> Cycling I mean.


 It can be. And I think e-bike racing would be an interesting thing, where each rider/team is having to decide on their acceleration/battery profile, like I think how the F1 teams have (had?) to choose how to use KERS, to get the best possible advantage from it before it runs out of charge. It might encourage development of more efficient e-bikes if done right.



welsh dragon said:


> most people who buy ebikes don't want to cycle with a club anyway .


Really? What survey's that from?



welsh dragon said:


> Ban them from your group or not.


I don't agree with that unless it's a sports club.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

greekonabike said:


> I can't help but think that someone will have an accident on a bike with a modified motor and the law will be changed because of it.


I think such modification already renders the bike illegal to use on public roads, so what law would you expect to change and how?


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## youngoldbloke (14 Dec 2016)

Why isn't riding a moped 'cycling' too? Or is it? Is an electric moped an e-bike? It gets you out, on two wheels, you turn pedals. Is it all a case of definition - max speed, power, taxation? I don't know. Can anyone explain?


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## greekonabike (14 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> I think such modification already renders the bike illegal to use on public roads, so what law would you expect to change and how?



I'm not 100% sure but I can imagine the power outputs of the bikes could be further limited if modifying them became a big issue. Although saying that when I was 16 everyone I knew rode a de-restricted 50cc moped and the only way they could enforce the 30mph top speed was by testing bikes in mobile rolling roads.

GOAB


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## Pale Rider (14 Dec 2016)

ColinJ said:


> @Pale Rider has used his e-bike on some really challenging rides with me and assorted other CycleChatters this year. I'm sure that he would be the first to admit that he wouldn't have been able to join us without a bit of help from the motor, but it was obvious that he was still having to put a lot of his own energy into the rides as well.
> 
> The only time that it could be a problem would be if the other riders wanted to ride at a speed significantly beyond the 15 mph assistance limit of the motor.



That's correct, the ebike enables me to take part in rides I couldn't otherwise do.

It is real cycling in the sense that, as @ColinJ says, I need to put in quite a bit of effort - for me - to keep up with strongish road riders.

No throttle on my Bosch crank assist bike, so if I don't pedal, I don't go, which is very much like a push bike.

The electronics mean the harder I push, the harder the motor pushes, but I still need to change down for hills and headwinds.

All-in-all, a crank assist ebike is like real cycling, the main difference being that in any given situation it is easier to push the pedals.


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## welsh dragon (14 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> It can be. And I think e-bike racing would be an interesting thing, where each rider/team is having to decide on their acceleration/battery profile, like I think how the F1 teams have (had?) to choose how to use KERS, to get the best possible advantage from it before it runs out of charge. It might encourage development of more efficient e-bikes if done right.
> 
> 
> Really? What survey's that from?
> ...




This isn't part of the forum that demands surveys, research, and 101 other things. most ebikers just want to get out into the fresh air, or to be able to continue to cycle when they thought they might have to give up, or if they life in really hilly areas.

And if you know people who wouldn't want them or accept them in their groups as they would consider them cheating, then it's just as well that most just want to pootle along in their own sweet time. heaven forbid they join a group where they are not wanted.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

youngoldbloke said:


> Why isn't riding a moped 'cycling' too? Or is it? Is an electric moped an e-bike? It gets you out, on two wheels, you turn pedals. Is it all a case of definition - max speed, power, taxation? I don't know. Can anyone explain?


e-bikes are basically electric versions of the old autocycles - pedalling is the primary drive method but they come with motor assistance. mopeds are esentially the other way round and haven't even been required in the UK to have pedals for a while now.

I think mopeds used to be limited to 4kW but now seem to be limited by speed (45kph). E-bikes are limited to 250W and the motor cannot assist beyond 15.5mph (about 20kph) (source). So they have different primary drive, power and top speed, which makes me think the line is somewhere between.



welsh dragon said:


> most ebikers just want to get out into the fresh air


So you keep claiming. I think that's probably junk and it's just as well I also know groups where they're welcomed.


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## welsh dragon (14 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> e-bikes are basically electric versions of the old autocycles - pedalling is the primary drive method but they come with motor assistance. mopeds are esentially the other way round and haven't even been required in the UK to have pedals for a while now.
> 
> I think mopeds used to be limited to 4kW but now seem to be limited by speed (45kph). E-bikes are limited to 250W and the motor cannot assist beyond 15.5mph (about 20kph) (source). So they have different primary drive, power and top speed, which makes me think the line is somewhere between.
> 
> ...





You're opinion is noted, and it is just that. I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. you clearly know better. enjoy your discussion , but maybe a few other e bikers on this forum would agree with me.


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## broadway (14 Dec 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> Theyre speciality kit, not for regular daily cycling use. If you have special needs, they might fit the mark.
> 
> A bicycle is in itself a labour saving device, and one of the most efficient out there.
> 
> If an overweight middle aged man like myself used one id call him a lazy daffodil.



The majority of weekend cyclists are on speciality kit, maybe your being a bit to focused in your opinion.


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## jefmcg (14 Dec 2016)

Tin Pot said:


> If an overweight middle aged man like myself used one id call him a lazy daffodil.


Well, I assume you equally insult overweight men in cars, on motorcycles or riding bus or trains? Or is it just reserved for those who are active, but not quite as active as you?


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## Joffey (14 Dec 2016)

When does a bicycle become a moped?

If you strapped a petrol motor to a MTB is that cycling? Is a derny a cycle? No.

It lets people enjoy the feeling of cycling when maybe they aren't physically able to do 100% of the work. Nothing wrong with that at all (unless they upload their rides to Strava!)


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## Smokin Joe (14 Dec 2016)

Who the hell cares what other people ride? If someone on an E bike overtook me I wouldn't give a toss, he's doing what he wants to do and I'm doing what I want to do. No one is cheating anyone.


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## fatjel (14 Dec 2016)

I bought a conversion kit and transformed my partners bike .. 
We had some good fun rides together that we would otherwise not due to poor health.
I occasionally steal it for a spin and have to say I enjoy it enormously


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## Oldfentiger (14 Dec 2016)

We bought Mrs OFT an ebike, and it's made a big difference to both of us.
I'm fitter than she is, so when we used to go for a ride together it wasn't much of a workout for me, and she was always feeling guilty because she thought she was spoiling my ride.
Now when we go out for a ride together we're both knackered when we get home


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## tyred (14 Dec 2016)

I think they're great. A friend's mum bought one and is able to go cycling again in the remote and mountainous area where she lives. It would be a serious challenge for a frail 76 year old to ride in terrain like that but electric assist makes it possible.

Some day when funds allow I intend to build my own on an existing frame as I'd like the challenge of doing so and I can see advantages of having one even though I am fortunate enough to have the health and fitness to ride a normal bike.


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## Dave 123 (14 Dec 2016)

Mrs Dave works with a lad who rides MTB. He lives 20 miles from work and uses an E MTB to get to work and back a few times a week. He's currently doing his house up so I understand his energy conservation.

I see perfectly able folk ride them around the mountain range that is central Cambridge and I do wonder.....

Older people though, who might not get out any more/as much I think it's a great idea.


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## Oxo (14 Dec 2016)

Recently I met a guy on a regular road bike and his wife on an electric bike. It ment that they could enjoy their hobby together, enjoying being outside and both getting an appropriate amount of exercise. He carried a spare battery for the electric bike to be used when needed so they could extend their ride. It worked for them and it seemed a good solution to me.


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## Cycleops (14 Dec 2016)

Its the future, or so Brompton think. They hope it will stop them becoming a one product company, that's when they can get it to work.


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## hopless500 (14 Dec 2016)

Bicyclist said:


> Recently I met a guy on a regular road bike and his wife on an electric bike. It ment that they could enjoy their hobby together, enjoying being outside and both getting an appropriate amount of exercise. He carried a spare battery for the electric bike to be used when needed so they could extend their ride. It worked for them and it seemed a good solution to me.


Mr Hop looked at me like I was the antichrist when I mentioned it.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

welsh dragon said:


> You're opinion is noted, and it is just that. I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. you clearly know better. enjoy your discussion , but maybe a few other e bikers on this forum would agree with me.


Top bit of electrically-assisted flouncing there! 

I know mine is only an opinion, but that's why I don't phrase it as if I'm presenting a fact! Many of my comments - and most of them in this discussion - are littered with "I think" or similar. Try it sometimes.


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## Oxo (14 Dec 2016)

hopless500 said:


> Mr Hop looked at me like I was the antichrist when I mentioned it.



Give him time. Us males don't always know what's good for us until we have been told several times - so I'm told.


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## mjr (14 Dec 2016)

hopless500 said:


> Mr Hop looked at me like I was the antichrist when I mentioned it.


 We really need an exorcist smiley on here, but until then:  +


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## welsh dragon (14 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> Top bit of electrically-assisted flouncing there!
> 
> I know mine is only an opinion, but that's why I don't phrase it as if I'm presenting a fact! Many of my comments - and most of them in this discussion - are littered with "I think" or similar. Try it sometimes.




Oh dear.


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## Rickshaw Phil (14 Dec 2016)

*Mod Note: * I'm a little surprised at the bickering that's started in here. If you can agree to disagree and move on that would be great.

Taking the mod hat off, I've had a chance to play around with an electrically assisted machine or two recently.

They're not really my cup of tea but they were enjoyable to ride and I can see the potential for anyone who wants to tackle hills they couldn't otherwise manage, keep up with fitter friends, extend the range of their rides or arrive at work without getting sweaty. Nothing wrong with that.


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## keithmac (14 Dec 2016)

I've been riding to work and back nearly 20 years now, when my last bike was on it's last legs I decided to buy a Gtech eBike.

For me it just makes the ride home far more enjoyable, especially if you're knackered, or it's windy; or both!.

I'm quite capable of riding a "normal" bike but decided to make my life a little bit easier..

I could have bought a motorcycle but I enjoy riding a bike.

They aren't magic, you still have to put some effort in.

Carbon belt and lack of gears is a big plus point, less maintenance. Makes an ideal daily commuter!.


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## Supersuperleeds (14 Dec 2016)

Oldfentiger said:


> We bought Mrs OFT an ebike, and it's made a big difference to both of us.
> *I'm fitter than she is, so when we used to go for a ride together it wasn't much of a workout for me*, and she was always feeling guilty because she thought she was spoiling my ride.
> Now when we go out for a ride together we're both knackered when we get home



I'm in the same position with our lass but when I suggested an e-bike for her she was not pleased at all with me.


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## Oldfentiger (14 Dec 2016)

Supersuperleeds said:


> I'm in the same position with our lass but when I suggested an e-bike for her she was not pleased at all with me.


One of our local LBS hires ebikes out - £40 or so for a weekend. Might be worth a try if you can find similar local.


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## Supersuperleeds (14 Dec 2016)

Oldfentiger said:


> One of our local LBS hires ebikes out - £40 or so for a weekend. Might be worth a try if you can find similar local.



I've just accepted the fact that our Sunday ride is just very slow. Brilliant in summer, absolute nightmare in winter as I just cannot keep warm.


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## Racing roadkill (14 Dec 2016)

Theoretically, they are fantastic. They get people who otherwise couldn't be arsed, out on a bike. The reality is somewhat different, in my experience. There are a lot of people with a very odd attitude riding them. "Do you know how much this thing cost? Get out of my way on your crappy non electric bike". They seem to attract a very insecure type of person, who see it as a way to 'beat' everyone else. I thought it was an isolated case when I first encountered it, I've since changed my mind. The other type of e-bike riders, are those who can't get around easily any other way, and the first type, risk tarring these folk with the same brush.


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## Mrs M (14 Dec 2016)

I wouldn't rule out E bikes for us (not quite just now though). Mr M agrees 
Although I had to get the bus to work this morning, stood waiting for almost an hour, then took 40 mins to get into 
town. I was thinking a bike would be much faster! Usually a 20 min journey in the car.
Hoping to hire an electric fat bike on hols at Christmas


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## JD42 (14 Dec 2016)

I think they are great... had an 'incident' that made me chuckle a few Sunday rides back. Whilst hanging out of my ar5e on a long steep climb ...this chap came past flying up the hill on his ebike, shouting out " sorry mate!! I just can't be bothered with leg muscles!!"..and sped off laughing. It brought an envious smile to my face.


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## alecstilleyedye (14 Dec 2016)

as long as e-bikes are labelled as such, no problem. what i don't want to see is 'normal' road bikes retro-fitted with the kind of motor found by the UCI at a cyclocross event pitching up on the club run…


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## Pat "5mph" (14 Dec 2016)

hopless500 said:


> Mr Hop looked at me like I was the antichrist when I mentioned it.


Uhm ... maybe he is worried you can then keep up and want to go out riding with him all the time 
I think they are great, but would not want one for myself, not until I get down to 3mph anyway 
We have a couple that belong to the cycling hub I work for occasionally, I should really familiarize myself with one: on a Belles ride, one lady was on an electric bike, she fell off, the battery fell into a puddle!
Me and the other ride leader were at a loss. What if the thing started an electrical fire or stopped working? The rider did not know much about her bike either!
I need to go on an e-bike training course


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## jefmcg (15 Dec 2016)

alecstilleyedye said:


> as long as e-bikes are labelled as such, no problem. what i don't want to see is 'normal' road bikes retro-fitted with the kind of motor found by the UCI at a cyclocross event pitching up on the club run…


Why not? If it's not a race, who cares why someone is able to keep up: genetics, training, motor.

You're not excluding someone because they carry the XY genes, and have a naturally high level of testosterone, Why exclude them because the have a motor? (Unless it's a race, obviously)


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## RichardB (15 Dec 2016)

I wrote a longish response to this topic in another thread, but briefly:

I call mine 'the bike that saved my life'. From commuting a hilly 16 miles each way in my 20s/30s, I had had children, been ill and (semi-)recovered, and had lost touch with daily cycling and a lot of fitness. I was overweight, totally out of shape, and at 60+ heading rapidly for the scrapheap. I wanted to get back into cycling, but my new journey to work (13 miles, hilly) would have been impossible on a pedal bike. I wouldn't have made half way. I bought an ebike and did a few trial runs. After a while, I had the confidence to start commuting. It meant 50-55 minutes a day of decent exercise and this, combined with a sensible diet, meant I lost 3 stone last year.

At the same time, I refurbed my 1992 MTB and started riding that on my days off. I now regularly do 15-mile runs on pedal power alone and feel 100% better than I did a couple of years ago. Not much compared to some on here, but a massive change in my lifestyle. If you are ill, or disabled in some way, or even just out of condition, an ebike can mean the difference between cycling and sitting on the couch.

As a point of fact, an ebike is nothing like a moped. On a moped (the older ones) the pedals are there to get you up to a speed where the motor takes over. On an ebike, it's the opposite: the motor helps up to 15.5 mph, and then you are on your own. For probably 80% of my ebike riding, I am just pedalling a very heavy pushbike at 16-17 mph. On the hills, it is like a giant hand on your back giving you a gentle push. I sweat less on the ebike (great for work) and I average about 30% faster, but it's still an enjoyable workout. As you can probably tell, I am a big fan. You get the fresh air and freedom of a bicycle, and you get decent exercise as well, but at a lower intensity (a legal UK bike will not move at all unless you contribute some pedal power). If you think that fitness is the only reason to ride a bike, then you will probably despise an ebike. But if you cycle for the freedom, the buzz, the low cost, the ability to slice through traffic, and the satisfaction of getting somewhere at least partly under your own steam, then an ebike is a valid alternative - for _some_ people, at _some_ times in their lives.


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## mjr (15 Dec 2016)

Wow. That was uplifting. Can someone remember where the longer reply is? I may need a lift after tomorrow


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## snorri (15 Dec 2016)

alecstilleyedye said:


> as long as e-bikes are labelled as such, no problem.


Labelled, you say LABELLED?
They should have bleepers on them, the kind that reversing lorries have, that way real cyclists would know there was an ebike in the vicinity and would not break sweat trying to catch up, or be shocked out of their minds when overtaken by an ebike.


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## RichardB (15 Dec 2016)

snorri said:


> Labelled, you say LABELLED?
> They should have bleepers on them, the kind that reversing lorries have, that way real cyclists would know there was an ebike in the vicinity and would not break sweat trying to catch up or be shocked out of their minds when overtaken by an ebike.


I have to admit: the only time I don't like my ebike is when I am riding up the hill from my house (varies easy to moderate) and I come up behind a group of 'proper' cyclists sweating their way up the hill. I can't NOT overtake as I don't want to wait, but I'm embarrassed to do so. The first time it happened, I whizzed past and just shouted "It's OK, I am cheating!". Now, I man up, turn the assistance off (so no tell-tale whine from the rear hub) and make a humongous 30-second effort to pass under my own steam, before reinstating the power when out of earshot. As I am riding something weighing about 22 kg, this takes it out of me for the next half-hour. Good exercise, I suppose.


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## RichardB (15 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> Wow. That was uplifting. Can someone remember where the longer reply is? I may need a lift after tomorrow


You mean mine (apologies for the self-promotion if you don't)? It's here:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/the-long-journey-back.184677/

It's a bit out of date now, as various changes have happened, but it's a fuller explanation of my ebike initiation.


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## Oxo (15 Dec 2016)

Road bikes, MTB's, ebikes or kids on tricycles, when you bicycle like me they are going to come past. Uphill, downhill, on the flat it doesn't make any difference, but does it bother me? Of course it does, when I finally get to the cafe and they have eaten all the cake.


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## Tin Pot (15 Dec 2016)

jefmcg said:


> Well, I assume you equally insult overweight men in cars, on motorcycles or riding bus or trains? Or is it just reserved for those who are active, but not quite as active as you?



Yes, quite a lot of men insult each other casually - is this something you're only just becoming aware of?


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## summerdays (15 Dec 2016)

For me I think they are in general a good thing. I've a friend who bought one (with the help of information on here), as she was unable to do a 5 day a week commute due to health problems, she was cycling to her much nearer previous place of work most days, but could only manage the longer distance once a week (5 miles each way with a hill). I've had a go on hers and also a couple of others. I imagine I will get one at some point but as I'm a lazy cyclist I might come to rely on the assist too much so for now I'm sticking to the non assist.

I see them daily, multiple ones, they really are getting quite common. My only couple of negatives are:

One unfit person got one then used the assist the whole time so gave it up as it wasn't making her fitter (surprise surprise )

Ones where the assist restriction is removed.... I've seen some go very fast and on a cycle path you aren't expecting that.

And one of the ways you can often tell it's an electric bike is the fairly constant speed, and how they don't seem to slow at natural points where as normal cyclist might ease off on the speed/pedals, so taking a few extra risks and I'm not sure if that is through a lack of cycling experience or not.


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## biking_fox (15 Dec 2016)

Given their weight and 15mph limit, I'd be very surprised if any kind of cyclist out on club runs would be unable to leave them in the dirt, I've certainly never had any trouble dropping them on my commute. However they really do open up the cycling potential for many people who consider themselves too unfit to cycle normally. It's far more about perception than might be expected. OtherHalf wouldn't cycle without one, so they've been a great benefit to us, such that we're considering an electric tandem as an n+1.


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## nickyboy (15 Dec 2016)

alecstilleyedye said:


> as long as e-bikes are labelled as such, no problem. what i don't want to see is 'normal' road bikes retro-fitted with the kind of motor found by the UCI at a cyclocross event pitching up on the club run…



Why would you care, it's just a friendly bike ride?

If it's some sort of race then you should have a level playing field. But if someone I know comes for a ride with me on an assisted bike it's absolutely fine


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## Tin Pot (15 Dec 2016)

biking_fox said:


> However they really do open up the cycling potential for many people who consider themselves too unfit to cycle normally.


In certain circumstances. But I suspect the vast majority of mature adults who don't cycle now would assume they need assistance when all they really need is a few weeks to get used to it.

Otherwise, agreed.


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## ufkacbln (15 Dec 2016)

snorri said:


> Labelled, you say LABELLED?
> They should have bleepers on them, the kind that reversing lorries have, that way real cyclists would know there was an ebike in the vicinity and would not break sweat trying to catch up, or be shocked out of their minds when overtaken by an ebike.




Years ago we bought my MiL an electric "Cruiser" from Encycleopedia

It was legal, but as built for a large American, a small pensioner gained some fantastic acceleration on it. she used to love "burning up" teenagers


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## ufkacbln (15 Dec 2016)

RichardB said:


> I have to admit: the only time I don't like my ebike is when I am riding up the hill from my house (varies easy to moderate) and I come up behind a group of 'proper' cyclists sweating their way up the hill. I can't NOT overtake as I don't want to wait, but I'm embarrassed to do so. The first time it happened, I whizzed past and just shouted "It's OK, I am cheating!". Now, I man up, turn the assistance off (so no tell-tale whine from the rear hub) and make a humongous 30-second effort to pass under my own steam, before reinstating the power when out of earshot. As I am riding something weighing about 22 kg, this takes it out of me for the next half-hour. Good exercise, I suppose.




You need a "Poseur pass"

Pedal as fast as you can, full power, build up a head of speed, switch off power then sedately bimble past.....

Then take the next turning before you collapse!


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## Pat "5mph" (15 Dec 2016)

summerdays said:


> And one of the ways you can often tell it's an electric bike is the fairly constant speed, and how they don't seem to slow at natural points where as normal cyclist might ease off on the speed/pedals, so taking a few extra risks and I'm not sure if that is through a lack of cycling experience or not.


Yes, I noticed that too, I think that's why the woman on my ride fell off.
I'm going to take out one of those electric bikes and do a report as a first timer.
Another worry they have been causing us ride leaders is what if they get a puncture? I think the rider should invest in one of those split inner tubes I have seen mentioned on here: normally Belles ride leaders fix the group's punctures, we tell them to carry a spare inner for their bike.


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## Lonestar (15 Dec 2016)

Bloke in my work has one.I'm always asking him about it.No banter.No problem.


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## Smokin Joe (15 Dec 2016)

The type I'd be most interested in would be those hidden motors that sit in a frame tube and drive the cranks. No special bike needed, just retro fit to a conventional machine.


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## Pale Rider (15 Dec 2016)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Yes, I noticed that too, I think that's why the woman on my ride fell off.
> I'm going to take out one of those electric bikes and do a report as a first timer.
> Another worry they have been causing us ride leaders is what if they get a puncture? I think the rider should invest in one of those split inner tubes I have seen mentioned on here: normally Belles ride leaders fix the group's punctures, we tell them to carry a spare inner for their bike.



Punctures are worth thinking about.

If the ebike drives through the bottom bracket like my two, it's not such a concern because removing a wheel is the same procedure as a push bike - quick release or nutted axle if you have hub gears.

Ebikes are heavier to (wo)manhandle which could be a consideration for Belles leaders.

Hub motor ebikes are a bit more complicated because you have to disconnect the motor - assuming the puncture is in the motor wheel.

There should be a plug which can be pulled apart for the electrics, but the axle will be nutted and an inexperienced user probably won't carry a spanner.

There may also be torque arms - small plates to anchor the motor into the dropouts.

They ought to undo with an allen key, but it's all more dismantling and reassembly.


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## roadrash (15 Dec 2016)

I am seriously thinking of getting an ebike , due to ongoing health issues


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## keithmac (15 Dec 2016)

roadrash said:


> I am seriously thinking of getting an ebike , due to ongoing health issues



Have a look at http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/ 

What sort of bike are you most comfortable with and what riding do you do?.


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## roadrash (15 Dec 2016)

not doing much riding at the moment , used to do mainly road but due to spinal problems started to find the position too uncomfortable , switched to mountain bike just on trails and canal tow path etc, but havent really done much at all since spinal surgery , cant put too much pressure through pedals , recently been thinking of trying recumbent trike or ebike, its doin my head in , i really miss my cycling
will have a look at pedelecs forum, thanks.


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## RichardB (15 Dec 2016)

Cunobelin said:


> You need a "Poseur pass"
> 
> Pedal as fast as you can, full power, build up a head of speed, switch off power then sedately bimble past.....
> 
> Then take the next turning before you collapse!



Genuinely laughed out loud at this one. It would work on the flat, but up a hill the ebike the weight kills any momentum pretty quickly. Occasionally, the motor cuts out for half a second or so on a steep hill (might be the electronics protecting the motor) and it's like being hit by a sack of spuds. Not sedate at all - but I am keeping the idea for later use.



Pale Rider said:


> Punctures are worth thinking about.
> 
> If the ebike drives through the bottom bracket like my two, it's not such a concern because removing a wheel is the same procedure as a push bike - quick release or nutted axle if you have hub gears.
> 
> ...


I've never had a puncture on the ebike in 2000 miles (Schwalbe Energisers, good stuff) but if I do, the plan is to lock the bike to a solid object and come back with the car. Very heavy bike and wheels, tough tyres, electrics, torque arm ... far easier in the shed than by the side of the road.


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## mjr (16 Dec 2016)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Another worry they have been causing us ride leaders is what if they get a puncture?


Patch it without taking the wheel out or use a sealant can if it's small. Why's it a worry? Worst case, if the rider doesn't know how to remove the wheel, they'll need taxibus recovery or to do the long push home, but that's always a possibility for bizarre breakdowns anyway.


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## ufkacbln (16 Dec 2016)

mjr said:


> Patch it without taking the wheel out or use a sealant can if it's small. Why's it a worry? Worst case, if the rider doesn't know how to remove the wheel, they'll need taxibus recovery or to do the long push home, but that's always a possibility for bizarre breakdowns anyway.




I have two bikes, one a Bionx, the other a standard Bafang

Neither is as difficult as changing the rear on a Brompton!


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## steveindenmark (16 Dec 2016)

Drago said:


> It simply doesn't appeal to me. Fitness and the physical challenge is a large part of the reason I cycle in the first place. Nevertheless, as I become old/infirm/incontinent that view may change.
> 
> 
> However, if you get a boner for electric assist then all power to you.



The first question is have you ever tried it. My daughter hated sprouts until she actually ate one.

I am none of the things you mention above and I rode 488km last week on my road bike. That's not bad for a December week.

But I have also had electric bikes and they are for sure "real cycling". But its like snooker and pool or rugby league and rugby union. Its cycling but of a different style. If you feel the need to go out every time and thrash your arxe off, then that's fine with me. But going out with a bottle of wine and a picnic on a summers evening on an electric bike is a great way to spend a few hours. I used mine for my 20km commute for a long time and that was great.

They are not just for the aged and infirm and are popular with young and old alike in Denmark. We even have electric cargo carriers with kids in them.

They are great fun bikes with very little effort.


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## ufkacbln (16 Dec 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> They are not just for the aged and infirm and are popular with young and old alike in Denmark. We even have electric cargo carriers with kids in them.
> 
> .



One of mine is an electric cargo trike







With the weight of the trike, and a large mobility scooter / wheelchair it is "essential"


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## Ajax Bay (16 Dec 2016)

tyred said:


> I intend to build my own on an existing frame as I'd like the challenge of doing so


I have just had the chance to look at my next door neighbour's Gtech eBike.
I think the battery in the water bottle position on the down tube, simple cabling back to a motor hub is a useful template for a 'build your own' - did not check OLN but assume 135 or 140. Normal rims/rim brakes/622 wheels and tyres. The 'drive' is belt driven, but, prima facie, this could easily be a chain/single sprocket. No gears.


Smokin Joe said:


> If someone on an E bike overtook me I wouldn't give a toss, he's doing what he wants to do


The times I've been overtaken by a rider atop an e-bike (or strained to catch a cyclist ahead, only to find they're 'assisted') my reaction is to ride alongside, compliment them on their bike, ask them how they find it, exchange other pleasantries and ask if I may draft them. They've always said 'yes' and for as long as our route is the same, I've enjoyed a hard, fast section behind a rider going at a steady, predictable speed/power.


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## marzjennings (16 Dec 2016)

roadrash said:


> I am seriously thinking of getting an ebike , due to ongoing health issues



I'm seriously thinking of getting an ebike for fun reasons. I don't need the assistance to ride, just to go faster...

I test rode a Specialized Turbo Levo and few weeks back and loved the feel of an additional 250w.


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## Supersuperleeds (16 Dec 2016)

Went into my LBS today and they had a Specialized mountain bike with a motor. Looked quite nice, had a 1x11 speed set up on it. Didn't look at the price.

Just looked at the Specialized website and it was the Turbo Levo- £4k RRP


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## Smokin Joe (16 Dec 2016)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Went into my LBS today and they had a Specialized mountain bike with a motor. Looked quite nice, had a 1x11 speed set up on it. *Didn't look at the price.*


Terrified you might be able to afford it? I'm like that too.


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## Supersuperleeds (16 Dec 2016)

Smokin Joe said:


> Terrified you might be able to afford it? I'm like that too.



No I got distracted by the Titanium frame road bike next to it


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## roadrash (16 Dec 2016)

whatever ebike i get , it wont be £4k


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## marzjennings (16 Dec 2016)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Went into my LBS today and they had a Specialized mountain bike with a motor. Looked quite nice, had a 1x11 speed set up on it. Didn't look at the price.
> 
> Just looked at the Specialized website and it was the Turbo Levo- £4k RRP



I test rode the full sus version and few weeks back and I'd love to get one, the full sus version I rode was about £7k. So tempting.

FYI i just posted a video of these bike earlier in this thread.


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## keithmac (16 Dec 2016)

This is my Gtech, it only weighs 16kg so not too heavy and easy to manoeuvre in rush hour traffic.







Some of the mountain and road e-bikes are very nice, would love a Giant E-Road for the weekends but can't really justify it..


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## jefmcg (16 Dec 2016)

keithmac said:


> This is my Gtech, it only weighs 16kg so not too heavy and easy to manoeuvre in rush hour traffic.
> 
> View attachment 154420
> 
> ...


Very stealth. If you motored by me up a hill, I would think it was all you


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## mustang1 (16 Dec 2016)

Riding anything other than fixed gear is not real cycling. 

If anyone already mentioned that in this thread, then you don't know what you're on about.


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## RichardB (16 Dec 2016)

marzjennings said:


> I don't need the assistance to ride, just to go faster...


Remember that the ebike won't give you anything on top speed. Once 15 mph is reached, you're on your own. What it will do is boost your average speed, as you are much faster up the hills. In the moderately hilly country round me, I reckon the ebike is about 30% faster overall.

That's if you keep it legal, of course. Removing the speed restriction would give you a higher top speed, but if you're doing that, why not get a motorbike?


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## marzjennings (17 Dec 2016)

RichardB said:


> Remember that the ebike won't give you anything on top speed. Once 15 mph is reached, you're on your own. What it will do is boost your average speed, as you are much faster up the hills. In the moderately hilly country round me, I reckon the ebike is about 30% faster overall.
> 
> That's if you keep it legal, of course. Removing the speed restriction would give you a higher top speed, but if you're doing that, why not get a motorbike?



Ahh, but over here the limit is 20mph, not piddling 15mph. My general offroad unassisted average is around 12-14mph and on the short demo I had, I easily averaged 15-18mph. Not much, but it felt great.

And why assist rather than a motorbike, 'cos I still want a great workout and feel I've done something. From the other riders I've spoken to, who've ridden the Levo turbo, they're just as worn out at the end of a ride, but have covered more miles for the same effort.


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## raleighnut (17 Dec 2016)

roadrash said:


> not doing much riding at the moment , used to do mainly road but due to spinal problems started to find the position too uncomfortable , switched to mountain bike just on trails and canal tow path etc, but havent really done much at all since spinal surgery , cant put too much pressure through pedals , recently been thinking of trying recumbent trike or ebike, its doin my head in , i really miss my cycling
> will have a look at pedelecs forum, thanks.


I managed to build this for just short of a grand,






250w front wheel kit from Cyclotricity.

Oh and BTW that curly 'telephone' cable is for my front lamp set-up, nothing to do with the electric motor.


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## keithmac (17 Dec 2016)

marzjennings said:


> Ahh, but over here the limit is 20mph, not piddling 15mph. My general offroad unassisted average is around 12-14mph and on the short demo I had, I easily averaged 15-18mph. Not much, but it felt great.
> 
> And why assist rather than a motorbike, 'cos I still want a great workout and feel I've done something. From the other riders I've spoken to, who've ridden the Levo turbo, they're just as worn out at the end of a ride, but have covered more miles for the same effort.



That's the thing, quite a few e-mtb riders say that they can go further and stay out longer. Two plus points.


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## mjr (17 Dec 2016)

keithmac said:


> That's the thing, quite a few e-mtb riders say that they can go further and stay out longer. Two plus points.


@Fnaar? Miss Goodbody tells me she likes a bit of electric assistance with a ride sometimes.


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