# Has cycling improved your knee health?



## vavavikki (15 Jun 2009)

My knees sound like bags of marbles when I walk up stairs, bend, I cant kneel cus they swell up. At some angles I get shooting pains. The phisio gave me exercises to build up the muscles around the knees and hopefully separate the bits of the joins that are rubbing together. I think this is due to sking, I have had it since I was a teenager. 

Well I have to admit the exersises where really boring..lift leg...put leg down..lift leg...blah! I wanted to start running but was told the impact was too much for my knees. So I have been cycling every day (with the exeption of a few hangover days) for weeks now, I can see the changes in my muscles, my body shape etc but still I have the same knee problems. 

Has anyone found that cycling has iproved the health of thier knees? Surely it should as it works all the muscles in yout legs and is low impact..right?


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## jimboalee (15 Jun 2009)

No. It was the Smiths machine at the gym that built my knees.


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## I am Spartacus (15 Jun 2009)

vavavikki said:


> The phisio gave me exercises
> Well I have to admit the exersises where really boring..lift leg...put leg down..lift leg...blah!



Do all physios have this aversion to stipulating correct technique resistance training for the lower body? are they scared of being sued or what? I do hear of this a lot.. and no wonder it was doing your head in


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## nigelnorris (15 Jun 2009)

Yes, most defintely. Three yers go I was in your position. Running (ony in the gym, on a treadmill) had done boh of mine. Both medial ligaments went accompanied by all the usual swelling and cracking.

> A year of swimming, physio exercises, sleeping in knee compression bandages did nothing. So I gave up and bought a bike.

Got worse for the first few months, especially till I got used to working gears to my advantage (was killing myself trying to ride off in too low a gear, and just overdoing it in general), lots of ibuprofen rub and keeping up with the compression kept that under control. I built up slowly and now they're close to fixed, I'm still wary of using too low a gear but aside from that none of the old symptoms or pain at all.

I did my first 50 mile run on Sunday and could feel my right knee getting hot, but today there's no sign of any damage.


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## I am Spartacus (15 Jun 2009)

nigelnorris said:


> Yes, most defintely. T



doh I WAS hoping for a physio to pop up and defend ... that repeat cleint visitors keeps the payments up on a 'cock' Audi R8


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## summerdays (15 Jun 2009)

I don't know enough to advise you but in your position you definitely want to make sure that the saddle is at the correct height because if not it can create problems.


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## Jim_Noir (15 Jun 2009)

jimboalee said:


> No. It was the Smiths machine at the gym that built my knees.



This made me think of The Smiths for some reason "punctured bicycle on a hillside"


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## jimboalee (15 Jun 2009)

Jim_Noir said:


> This made me think of The Smiths for some reason "punctured bicycle on a hillside"



I've been cycling for as since as I can remember. 7 years old on a 20" kids single speed.
Then a 5 speed Halfords youth's sports bike.
Then a Peugeot 531 PX10LE.
Then got into the gym when I started work and discovered the Smiths machine for squatting.
Then started doing calf raises.

The bike got much faster.


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## sparkyman (15 Jun 2009)

Roller skating Got me over my week knee issue (which i had had since spending a year painting skirting boards) , well untill i snapped my leg in two places anyway :/ on the up side my bad knee handled carrying all that extra weight for six months no problem... 

I found skating a greaty non impact way of strengthaning my legs and lots of fun.

Sparkyman


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## Blonde (16 Jun 2009)

To the OP's title question: My answer is yes, but only after some specific interventions and specific training. If you have knee pain, how to fix it depends on what is causing the pain. If it is basically a muscular problem or a joint issue that is exacerbated by poor muscle strength, then obviously increasing the muscle strength in the muscles surrounding the problem joint will help, but this must be done in a controlled and careful way. Going big guns up steep hills when you have an existing knee problem won't be the answer. However, strong muscle will support the problem joint and take some of the strain. 

When I sorted out my cleat position at CycleFit as well as my leg length difference (with some LeMond Wedges under one cleat) it seemed to almost fix the knee problem that I had bee experiencing for some time. Having the saddle set a little further forward over the bottom bracket helped too. If I had it set too far back, the knees began to hurt again. My pain was caused by the ball rubbing in the socket due to some misalignment. The outer knee muscle was pulling the knee cap over towards the outside of the knee joint (on both legs but one was worse than the other). A higher protein diet, along with riding fixed and fairly structured track cycling has helped me increase the inner knee muscle size and strength, which had been underdeveloped and the inner muscles are now pulling the knee cap back around to the front, where it ought to be. 

I can still get some pain after a lot of steep/sharp hill work such as after the White Rose Classic sportive, but seem to be fine on longer climbs such as in the Alps where less explosive power is needed, even after several long days of this type of climbing. I got some pain the day after a three hour track sprint session on Sunday, but that was a lot of explosive efforts in a 90 inch gear and my whole body still aches to be honest, especially my core muscles - I've started working on strenthening them now! On Sunday I was also shown how to do some basic squat exercises, which can easily be done at home, with or without additional weights, to increase leg strength, which in turn will help maintain and protect the knee joints. As with all resistance training, good technique is essential to prevent injury and for the exercise to be effective.


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## Tynan (16 Jun 2009)

yes, for sure, shame it's buggered my shoulders but that was two seperate serious offs

if there's actually something wrong with your joints etc then that needs fixing, have you seen a specialist?


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## redjedi (16 Jun 2009)

Definately helped my knees.

I always has slightly dodgy knees since I was a about 12. I often had pain if I tried going up two steps at a time or lifting, usually accompanied by clicking sounds.

Since I started cycling 2 years ago they are a lot better. So much so that I forget that I used to have problems. 

(carrying less weight also helps  )


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## byegad (16 Jun 2009)

Yes, I can certainly walk further before knee pain slows me down now than 
I could nine years ago when I got back into cyclng after a ten year lay off.


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## jimboalee (17 Jun 2009)

Blonde said:


> To the OP's title question: My answer is yes, but only after some specific interventions and specific training. If you have knee pain, how to fix it depends on what is causing the pain. If it is basically a muscular problem or a joint issue that is exacerbated by poor muscle strength, then obviously increasing the muscle strength in the muscles surrounding the problem joint will help, but this must be done in a controlled and careful way. Going big guns up steep hills when you have an existing knee problem won't be the answer. However, strong muscle will support the problem joint and take some of the strain.
> 
> When I sorted out my cleat position at CycleFit as well as my leg length difference (with some LeMond Wedges under one cleat) it seemed to almost fix the knee problem that I had bee experiencing for some time. Having the saddle set a little further forward over the bottom bracket helped too. If I had it set too far back, the knees began to hurt again. My pain was caused by the *ball rubbing in the socket* due to some misalignment. The outer knee muscle was pulling the knee cap over towards the outside of the knee joint (on both legs but one was worse than the other). A higher protein diet, along with riding fixed and fairly structured track cycling has helped me increase the inner knee muscle size and strength, which had been underdeveloped and the inner muscles are now pulling the knee cap back around to the front, where it ought to be.
> 
> I can *still get some pain* after a lot of steep/sharp hill work such as after the White Rose Classic sportive, but seem to be fine on longer climbs such as in the Alps where less explosive power is needed, even after several long days of this type of climbing. I got some pain the day after a three hour track sprint session on Sunday, but that was a lot of explosive efforts in a 90 inch gear and my whole body still aches to be honest, especially my core muscles - I've started working on strenthening them now! On Sunday I was also shown how to do some basic squat exercises, which can easily be done at home, with or without additional weights, to increase leg strength, which in turn will help maintain and protect the knee joints. As with all resistance training, good technique is essential to prevent injury and for the exercise to be effective.



The knee joint is a 'hinge' joint.

Pain when climbing is normal.


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## vavavikki (17 Jun 2009)

I'm glad there is hope!
I tried lifting little weights with my knees at phisio, was pretty uncomfortable, seems to be the angle of the joint, after grinding on my bent knees skiing for 12 years they dont like the angle between straight and bent much! To begin with cycling made it feel like there was a pressure building up in the knee which I had to shake out but that seems to have improved. I will be interested to see if when I go back to a full week with 12 hours shifts I get the usual swelling.


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## byegad (17 Jun 2009)

Are you using Glucosomine? Worked wonders for me!


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## Blonde (17 Jun 2009)

Jimboalee, pain when climbing may be normal for you, but I think you should see if there is something you can do about it, because pain means there is an injury or some damage occuring. I don't get any knee pain when climbing.


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## Bigtwin (17 Jun 2009)

It's helped mine a lot. I used to get knee pain just walking 1/2 a mile or so.

Now I cycle to the pub; not a problem.


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## jimboalee (17 Jun 2009)

Blonde said:


> Jimboalee, pain when climbing may be normal for you, but I think you should see if there is something you can do about it, because pain means there is an injury or some damage occuring. I don't get any knee pain when climbing.



No end of medical and physiotherapy expertise has been able to calm the discomfort in the sides of my knees for the last forty years. I just seem to get stronger, not suffer injury.

I complained in 1975 and the rest of the group shouted "That's usual, you'll get used to it".

I do the Castleton Classic Audax as an early season trainer; and it hurts every year. I take a few days off and after that, hills aren't something to be frightened of.


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## montage (17 Jun 2009)

Blonde said:


> To the OP's title question: My answer is yes, but only after some specific interventions and specific training. If you have knee pain, how to fix it depends on what is causing the pain. If it is basically a muscular problem or a joint issue that is exacerbated by poor muscle strength, then obviously increasing the muscle strength in the muscles surrounding the problem joint will help, but this must be done in a controlled and careful way. Going big guns up steep hills when you have an existing knee problem won't be the answer. However, strong muscle will support the problem joint and take some of the strain.
> 
> When I sorted out my cleat position at CycleFit as well as my leg length difference (with some LeMond Wedges under one cleat) it seemed to almost fix the knee problem that I had bee experiencing for some time. Having the saddle set a little further forward over the bottom bracket helped too. If I had it set too far back, the knees began to hurt again. My pain was caused by the ball rubbing in the socket due to some misalignment. The outer knee muscle was pulling the knee cap over towards the outside of the knee joint (on both legs but one was worse than the other). A higher protein diet, along with riding fixed and fairly structured track cycling has helped me increase the inner knee muscle size and strength, which had been underdeveloped and the inner muscles are now pulling the knee cap back around to the front, where it ought to be.
> 
> I can still get some pain after a lot of steep/sharp hill work such as after the White Rose Classic sportive, but seem to be fine on longer climbs such as in the Alps where less explosive power is needed, even after several long days of this type of climbing. I got some pain the day after a three hour track sprint session on Sunday, but that was a lot of explosive efforts in a 90 inch gear and my whole body still aches to be honest, especially my core muscles - I've started working on strenthening them now! On Sunday I was also shown how to do some basic squat exercises, which can easily be done at home, with or without additional weights, to increase leg strength, which in turn will help maintain and protect the knee joints. As with all resistance training, good technique is essential to prevent injury and for the exercise to be effective.



IT band problems!

This is what I have right now. I am stretching the IT band for a few weeks while off the bike...and icing the knees at least once a day. Then I think my physio is going to give me exercises to help improve the inner muscle. Then I can start getting back onto the bike


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## Blonde (18 Jun 2009)

Yeah, tight IT bands are quite a common problem for cyclists. It's difficult to stretch them effectively though. I only ever feel anything streching if lying on the bed on my side, with the top leg straight and being pressed down off the bed behind me, by someone else leaning heavily on it! My IT bands seem to be better than in the past though. They aren't tender any more when I get a sports massage. I don't get any pain in the knee joint these days either. The pain I had was from bone rubbing on bone and hills didn't seem to trigger it. It was present all the time after about 100km on any terrain. It is hard to say if the alterations I made to my saddle and cleat position or the stretching and strangthening exercises were key in preventing the pain. Maybe it was a combination of both. 

The only knee pain I ever get now is slight muscular pain the day after explosive efforts on the track or after a very hilly ride with lots of steep hills where explosive efforts are required, (but never at the time of riding, only afterwards) so I think this is simply down to poor muscle strength (it's in the muscle above and to the inside of the knee joints). I'll be working on that now, with some resistance training. I also get muscular pain in my lower stomach and my waist/ribs area after track sprinting sessions (and in my forearms and shoulders), so will also be doing some more core strength exercises and possibly a few more upper body exercises.


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## plank (18 Jun 2009)

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but at the gym I think anything which restricts movement is has the potential to damage your knees especially leg extensions and could also include smith machine squats. Free squats and dead lifts are superior and do not damage your knees despite what people will tell you, they are also the only leg exercises you need to do, however doing these with bad technique *will* hurt your knees and back.

Of course I could be wrong so worth reading up, good starting point could be here
http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/


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## Dan B (18 Jun 2009)

sparkyman said:


> Roller skating Got me over my week knee issue


Funny, with me it's the opposite: I find that cycling (esp. low-intensity high cadence work) keeps my knees supple and limber after I've buggered them with hard skating.


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## Dan B (18 Jun 2009)

plank said:


> Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but at the gym I think anything which restricts movement is has the potential to damage your knees especially leg extensions and could also include smith machine squats. Free squats and dead lifts are superior and do not damage your knees despite what people will tell you, they are also the only leg exercises you need to do, however doing these with bad technique *will* hurt your knees and back.


I've heard this or a similar viewpoint expressed elsewhere in a less dogmatic form: the argument is that machines are designed to xercise one muscle solely and don;t develop the "support network" of stabilising muscles around it, putting you at risk of injury thereby. Free weights, on the other hand, require you to maintain balance while lifting and therefore all the bits develop in sync. *If* (big if) you do the exercise correctly and with good form


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## plank (18 Jun 2009)

Yeah, I agree, I would even say isolation exercise are usually unnecessary for beginners. The link I posted will provide even and constant growth with success and isn't worth changing until you can do 1.5xbodyweight squats (I think most people would count that as very strong!!) 

Even if you wanted to do isolation exercises for some reason focusing on weight machines would usually force unnatural movement and end up damaging joints.


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## jimboalee (18 Jun 2009)

plank said:


> Yeah, I agree, I would even say isolation exercise are usually unnecessary for beginners. The link I posted will provide even and constant growth with success and isn't worth changing until you can do 1.5xbodyweight squats (I think most people would count that as very strong!!)
> 
> Even if you wanted to do isolation exercises for some reason focusing on weight machines would usually force unnatural movement and end up damaging joints.



Variety and variation is the key.

Have a go at Rockwall climbing with a backpack.


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## plank (18 Jun 2009)

Climbings far too dangerous


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## jimboalee (18 Jun 2009)

plank said:


> Climbings far too dangerous



Oh come on!

You are lashed to a sturdy loop at the top.

You throw yourself off at the top and sail down on the clutch.


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## roadjunkie (18 Jun 2009)

There are some good ITB stretches out there..oh if I had a video camera... could be worth checking youtube.


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## vavavikki (20 Jun 2009)

People are mentioning squats and weights, the problem with these things is they create the discomfort I am trying to avoid, stabbing pains (squats), crunching and pressure build up. I would rather do something that dosnt sound and feel like it is doing more damage! Thats why I'm pretty happy cycling has worked for people. 

The thing I do miss from the phisio is the wabble board to improve my propreaseption, was fun, comfortable and worked all the tiny supporting muscles that as someone said get missed in fixed positions. I do feel however that when i cycle stading up the whiole lot of muscles is worked requiring strenght and balance at the same time, it would be good if it is a replacemnt for the wobble board.


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## Jim_Noir (20 Jun 2009)

I am sure cycling will build these musles over time, so it would be a replacment of the wobble board IMHO


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## ramboto (21 Jun 2009)

If one is having knee problems then he/ she should consult the medical experts. Or it could also be that with cycling it can be somehow cured....


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