# the Fridays Tour 2014



## dellzeqq (24 Jun 2013)

http://goo.gl/maps/Bkl1g ?


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## srw (24 Jun 2013)

Enough accommodation? Enough alternative roads?

Winds in that part of Europe can be startlingly strong, even in June - but I think they tend to be off the Atlantic, which is good.


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## Flying Dodo (24 Jun 2013)

Stunning idea. Although it's easy to get to the start using Brittany Ferries, I'm assuming you'd look to hire a coach to get everyone back to Bilboa?

Also, I think you might get a few objections about the hills (not from me though).


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## GrumpyGregry (24 Jun 2013)

Hmmm. If I start murdering all the family now I might just be able to get enough time and space, unimpeded by their various crises, to make it.


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## PaulRide (24 Jun 2013)

For a long time I have harboured thoughts of cycling in those foothills*. I'm happy to give a provisional vote of support for this idea and, although I won't be able to help with the languages, I'd be very happy to form part of this excursion.

Do they have paradors in that part of the world, I wonder?

*Having looked at the Andorra section of the route, I'm not sure foothills is the right term


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## mmmmartin (24 Jun 2013)

RideWithGPS says it has 8,900 metres of climbing and is 656k in all. So if we do it in six days it would be like riding up Ditchling Beacon (which is 200m of climbing) seven times a day. Or, to put it another way, like riding one Ditchling Beacon per hour, every hour of the trip. Every day for six days.


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## StuAff (24 Jun 2013)

Hmmm, cunning plan there Simon, use a site that shows a route without any elevation data and everyone will think it's flat..... Unless of course, they remember these roads are used by the Vuelta, the Tour has paid the odd visit as well, David Millar and assorted other pros live/have lived in Girona.....I mght be wanting the Campag 12-29 cassette next year then.
Something similar has crossed my mind before (being as that handy ferry port a mile and a half away would be our departure point). Sounds good, lumpiness aside, which deters me about as much as it deters Adam (I can nonetheless hear the gnashing and wailing already from certain quarters).
Despite the (entirely understandable) objections, I think Olaf's Berlin idea still has considerable merit, though with hotel/B&B prices in the BRD being what they are, block bookings in youth hostels would probably be the only viable option. If we could make them all....
Might I suggest a bit of research is carried out on both suggestions, before any decision is made?

Edit: Martin beat me to it sticking it on RWGPS. Equivalent 42 climbs of Ditchling? Fun, fun, fun  Altitude and gradient would be more of an issue for me at least than the climb per se.


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## martint235 (24 Jun 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> RideWithGPS says it has 8,900 metres of climbing and is 656k in all. So if we do it in six days it would be like riding up Ditchling Beacon (which is 200m of climbing) seven times a day. Or, to put it another way, like riding one Ditchling Beacon per hour, every hour of the trip. Every day for six days.


 Where do I sign??


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## GrumpyGregry (24 Jun 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> RideWithGPS says it has 8,900 metres of climbing and is 656k in all. So if we do it in six days it would be like riding up Ditchling Beacon (which is 200m of climbing) seven times a day. *Or, to put it another way, like riding one Ditchling Beacon per hour, every hour of the trip. Every day for six days.*


and what's wrong with that?


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## dellzeqq (24 Jun 2013)

there's a wealth of considerations

- getting the bikes to and from. My first thought is that we coach/fly/ferry to Bilbao and fly/train/coach back from Girona
- accommodation
- catering

but bear in mind that I've ridden these roads and I don't think that they would imperil my marriage


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## StuAff (24 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> there's a wealth of considerations
> 
> - getting the bikes to and from
> - accommodation
> ...


Fingers crossed for you on that one


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## mmmmartin (24 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I've ridden these roads and I don't think that they would imperil my marriage


Agent Hilda's staying at home, _obvs_


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## GrumpyGregry (24 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> but bear in mind that I've ridden these roads and *I don't think that they would imperil my marriage*


Chaffeur and stretch limo?


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## StuAff (24 Jun 2013)

Either that, or he knows where Mark's supply of whatever-it-is-makes-him-climb-so-fast is and he plans to start slipping some into her breakfasts.

If he does, can we have some too please?


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## Wobblers (24 Jun 2013)

martint235 said:


> Where do I sign??


 
If you just let me rustle up your confession - 100% genuine, of course, you can sign at the bottom.

Here's a pen you can borrow. No, I do want it back you thieving git.


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## martint235 (24 Jun 2013)

McWobble said:


> If you just let me rustle up your confession - 100% genuine, of course, you can sign at the bottom.
> 
> Here's a pen you can borrow. No, I do want it back you thieving git.


 Oh yes, it's gone lunchtime so you're awake now!!


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## Wobblers (24 Jun 2013)

martint235 said:


> Oh yes, it's gone lunchtime so you're awake now!!


 
There's not much call for originality in your job, is there Martin?


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## martint235 (24 Jun 2013)

McWobble said:


> There's not much call for originality in your job, is there Martin?


 No point over-egging the omelette is there? Efficiency and re-use is what it's all about.


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## velovoice (24 Jun 2013)

You two wanna get a room??


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## Wobblers (24 Jun 2013)

RebeccaOlds said:


> You two wanna get a room??


 
I'm not too sure that would be terribly wise...


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## Tim Hall (24 Jun 2013)

GregCollins said:


> Hmmm. If I start murdering all the family now I might just be able to get enough time and space, unimpeded by their various crises, to make it.


 
I'm seeing a blend of "Kind Hearts and Coronets" with "Summer Holiday".


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## srw (24 Jun 2013)

According to the chap in seat 61, Girona 0944 arrives at St Pancras at 1939. OK, taking a bike might be an issue, but this is where vans score.


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## StuartG (24 Jun 2013)

I've driven the bit between Olot & Andorra. Its bleak magnificence was unforgettable but I wouldn't ride it. Altitude and the long slow climbs without a hosterly for many many miles will be a pain if too hot, cold, windy or wet. Which means it may be a cunning plan by our leader to reduce the average age of the tour (by the end if not the beginning). Great for the young and hearty and worth it just for them. Why not divert to Figueres between Olot & Girona to sample Dali's excesses? Or go down and visit Milton Keynes does Venice (Empuriabrava) if you want to enjoy the Med?

Maybe a softer variation towards the latter half for the wimpy hearts to end in Barcelona or Tarragona/Reus?

Would there be a sag wagon to rush helmets to the scene of any police interaction?


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## Dogtrousers (24 Jun 2013)

Tim Hall said:


> I'm seeing a blend of "Kind Hearts and Coronets" with "Summer Holiday".


First Paul Temple, and now Kind Hearts and Coronets. You display excellent taste.

Not sure about Summer Holiday though.


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## thom (24 Jun 2013)

As a casual observer of these trips, I have to ask the question, why stop at Girona when the med is so close ? There are various classic coast to coast routes - going from Atlantic to Med through the Pyrenees is one of them.
There is quite reasonable airport access from thereabouts - Barcelona or Perpignan are within a couple of hours on the train I think, but that Mediterranean coast is really beautiful and worth investigation.


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## mmmmartin (24 Jun 2013)

It would be 50% more hilly than Normandy if Charlie's comment on the other thread is correct. However there would be no opportunity for a day off. Each day would have to be ridden. Unless there was a very special van.


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## dellzeqq (24 Jun 2013)

the real hazard on the road up to Envalira is not altitude or cold, but special offer electrical goods and exhaust fumes. The new tunnel would make it a good deal more pleasant, in that it would take the traffic away. I do accept, though, that running through Figueres would be a lot of fun. The road from Figueres to Girona is not suitable for a group ride, though.

Girona is a fabulous place to end the ride. A Grade 1 party destination with lots and lots of accommodation and a cheap airport nearby. One could go on to the coast at Tossa del Mar and then go down to Blanes and then on to Barcelona Prat by train.


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## dellzeqq (24 Jun 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> It would be 50% more hilly than Normandy if Charlie's comment on the other thread is correct. However there would be no opportunity for a day off. Each day would have to be ridden. Unless there was a very special van.


the roads in Northern Spain are fantastically well graded (the only exception I can remember is between Bilbao and Vergara). They have to be to take trucks carrying stone. Driven by men who have brandy for breakfast. Whoops!

I've an e-mail that suggests that Donostia/San Sebastian might make a better bet, and I'm persuaded.

http://goo.gl/maps/Npzsn por ejemplo


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## mmmmartin (24 Jun 2013)

Certainly my experience of riding Gib to Madrid in January was that the roads are indeed well graded, with long gentle inclines. Good surfaces, too. Polite drivers.


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## dellzeqq (24 Jun 2013)

once again, I'm open to persuasion on anything and everything. I think I should say though, that the SFNY dream is over. I looked at you lot in Grosville and thought 'would you really spend a month on your own, risking life and limb, for megabucks when a week with Los Viernes (or Die Freitags) is as good as it's ever going to get?' Somebody told Susie that this last week was the best holiday he or she could remember, and I confess I'm moved by that kind of crap, and also by the photographs that Stephen took in Chez Cri-Cri.


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## StuartG (24 Jun 2013)

2012 was great. 2013 was great but different. 2014 - a hybrid?
Say 4 days getting somewhere, 4 days there, 4 days back. 1 vehicle for excess luggage. Cherbourg to La Rochelle is around 300 interesting miles. And you have already recced the first 30 

Other sea crossings are available ..


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## Tim Hall (24 Jun 2013)

Dogtrousers said:


> First Paul Temple, and now Kind Hearts and Coronets. You display excellent taste.
> 
> Not sure about Summer Holiday though.


It was either Summer Holiday or Les Vacances de M. Hulot. And if I'd cast Dellzeqq as Jacques Tati we'd never hear the end of it.


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## AKA Bob (24 Jun 2013)

Me and the Brompton are ready!!!!!!!


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## mmmmartin (24 Jun 2013)

Sorry, @AKA Bob you are now officially Too Fast Onna Brompton


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## wanda2010 (24 Jun 2013)

Currently sick with a 'welcome to the UK' lurgy but still able to wield a pen and use the keyboard. Where do I sign? Maybe I should get Mark to take me on a hills training course .


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## redfalo (24 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/Bkl1g ?


 
This would surely be a stunning ride, and I would probably be in. However, it might be a break in terms of "inclusiveness", which is one fantastic feature of The Friday's. I guess many people would be scared to sh*t and be turned off in advance. That's fair enough if the idea is to keep numbers low, which makes logistics easier.
London-Harwich-Hoek of Holland-Berlin would be much duller in terms of landscape, but might attract more people. From the coast it's about 450 miles. From Calais (which would keep ferry costs low) it's about 570 miles. In both occasions, it could entail a real night ride to the ferry port. Easyjet runs tons of flights to Berlin, you can take the train (via Cologne and Brussles, bike has to be boxed).
Hotel costs in Germany are not that over the top. You should be able to get a double for about 120 Euros, and youth hostels are much cheaper (they don't require group bookings anymore these days).

If there is a significant chance that this ride makes it on the short list, I'm happy to help with the planning and looking at the options.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

I don't know of anybody who was put off by Normandy as a destination.

In a general way, people might be put off by the cost, the terrain or the weather. I suppose they might be put off by a lack of interest in the part of the world the tour goes to.

The big issue with northern Spain is the cost, and that depends, critically, on the journey to the start and the return from the finish. That's what I'll be attempting to sort in the next week or so. On every other front it's a great holiday - the countryside is beautiful, the towns and villages are striking, the roads are easy and the weather in June is likely to be congenial. The big thing for me is that organising on the road would be easy-peasy. The low traffic levels, the lack of traffic, the consistency of the roads would make my life much more relaxed. Thirty five people across Edinburgh - nightmare. Fifty people from Pamplona to Jaca - piece of cake.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> It would be 50% more hilly than Normandy if Charlie's comment on the other thread is correct. However there would be no opportunity for a day off. Each day would have to be ridden. Unless there was a very special van.


that takes us to the really big decision. Do we want a tour based on one place, or a moving-on tour?

And if we had a moving on tour, would the van with chef be worthwhile? It might make it easier to camp if the climate was decent


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## srw (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> camp


 
You two may be in search of times lost, but really - there are limits!

The big advantage of LonJoG was that there was a big range of accommodation available, from fields with taps to 5* luxury B&Bs. The big advantage of Normandy was that the accommodation was stupidly opulent for a bargain basement price.

If people have somewhere they feel comfortable sleeping (whether that's somewhere they can easily afford or somewhere they can stretch out and have a long hot shower) the riding becomes so much easier.


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## martint235 (25 Jun 2013)

2517717 said:


> You clearly didn't see quite how small my private bath was.


 Surely anything larger than a teensy, weensy thing would be a waste??


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## rvw (25 Jun 2013)

2517717 said:


> You clearly didn't see quite how small my private bath was.


He _did _see how small our private hip-bath was! I think our gite the previous week, in Brittany, probably cost about the same, and the entire house there was smaller than our room at the chateau.

I'd second srw's point about camping - some of you may have noticed that he's not at his best first thing in the morning even in a comfortable place...


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## mmmmartin (25 Jun 2013)

A Spanish recce would not be as simple as a French recce. And fewer Fridays speak Spanish than speak French. If you think my French was bad, you ought to hear my Spanish.


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## StuartG (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> In a general way, people might be put off by the cost, the terrain or the weather. I suppose they might be put off by a lack of interest in the part of the world the tour goes to. The big issue with northern Spain is the cost, and that depends, critically, on the journey to the start and the return from the finish.


 
There is also the time/cost element getting to/from Spain. Boat/coach turns a one week trip into two. Flying with one's precious steed is inconvenient, a worry and a cost.

On Utah Beach we met a bunch of Canadians who had rented their Giant road bikes in Ireland. We could do the same in Bilbao. Only about £100 for a week here: http://www.cycling-rentals.com/equipments/bikemodels - probably significantly less if we could negotiate a multiple deal. No worries, just find the cheapest flight from your local airport and assemble at designated bar, collect and ride ... If we hired a van for a week it could take luggage and return the bikes back to base. People would still be free to bring their Compags or Bromptons of course ...


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## StuartG (25 Jun 2013)

User13710 said:


> To be honest I have enough trouble getting up hills on my own bike that was bought and tweaked to fit me, let alone on some hired clunker that's too big.


I have the same worry as you except we are looking at full scale mountains - not hills!

I think it goes without saying that this tour would not attract us wimps without some guarantee on maximum gradients countersigned by Agent Hilda in neat Calvados ... and that is key - are the Fridays to remain a broad church to encourage cyclists of any age or athletic ability to extend themselves to 70/100 mile rides at no more than conversational pace?


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

StuartG said:


> I have the same worry as you except we are looking at full scale mountains - not hills!
> 
> I think it goes without saying that this tour would not attract us wimps without some guarantee on maximum gradients countersigned by Agent Hilda in neat Calvados ... and that is key - are the Fridays to remain a broad church to encourage cyclists of any age or athletic ability to extend themselves to 70/100 mile rides at no more than conversational pace?


take it from me - if it's not do-able by a broad range of people then I wouldn't want to do it. And therein lies the merit of the recce ride - whether it be the first two stages of LonJog or all of Normandy, I had confidence that it was pitched right because Susie thought it was pitched right. That's why we didn't pursue Barcelona to Nice - it was too tough with too much traffic.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

srw said:


> You two may be in search of times lost, but really - there are limits!
> 
> The big advantage of LonJoG was that there was a big range of accommodation available, from fields with taps to 5* luxury B&Bs. The big advantage of Normandy was that the accommodation was stupidly opulent for a bargain basement price.
> 
> If people have somewhere they feel comfortable sleeping (whether that's somewhere they can easily afford or somewhere they can stretch out and have a long hot shower) the riding becomes so much easier.


Camping would be an option, but not the only option. The thing is - people who didn't fancy camping in Scotland might go for camping in Spain - and the presence of a paid cook/van driver might make the camping easier on both the legs and the budget.


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## ianrauk (25 Jun 2013)

That looks like a brilliant route. May have to throw my hat in the ring for this one.


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## redfalo (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> that takes us to the really big decision. Do we want a tour based on one place, or a moving-on tour?
> 
> And if we had a moving on tour, would the van with chef be worthwhile? It might make it easier to camp if the climate was decent


 
Generally speaking, I am fine with both tour options but would prefer a moving-on tour in 2014. Normandy was very very nice, but I found the cycling more challenging (= more enjoyable) on LonJOG. I think the change of scenery and the feeling of getting closer to a goal is very nice. As far as I'm concerened, we don't need a chef. And a van is pretty handy but from my personal point of view not strictly necessary even on a moving tour. (I guess most people will disagree on that one)

In terms of Stuart's suggestion to hire bikes at the destination: That's possible of course, but I would not fancy it at all. I love riding my own bike :-)


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## StuartG (25 Jun 2013)

User13710 said:


> And can we lose the use of the word 'wimps' please @StuartG - that might be how you see yourself, but it's not how I see my lack of climbing ability.


My apologies TMN. Words mean different things to different people, something I so often forget ... has AH forgiven me yet over the p-word?


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## martint235 (25 Jun 2013)

User13710 said:


> I assume all bike hire places carry the full range of frame sizes, down to the very smallest. Not all of us are average-sized, male, strong cyclists you know. To be honest I have enough trouble getting up hills on my own bike that was bought and tweaked to fit me, let alone on some hired clunker that's too big.


 This would be my concern but from the other end so to speak. None of my bikes are what could be termed an average fit.


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## srw (25 Jun 2013)

I'll post a picture at some stage of the only tandem I've seen for hire recently. It might work for a 5-mile saunter...


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## PaulRide (25 Jun 2013)

I've been discussing bike trips with Mrs R over the last couple of days and her reaction to DZ's itinerary was: 

(a) to check that this was in addition to, rather than instead of, the ride to Paris that she'd like to do next Summer; and

(b) to say that it sounds like an excellent idea, not least because she would then not feel guilty about going on a Baltic tour with her choir in May.

I'd be interested to know what options for accommodation and long-distance transport start to emerge. I'd be keen to be able to ride my own bike on such a trip, and could cope with camping, particularly if there's a support van of some sort.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

Paul - I keep trying to dump the Paris ride and this might indeed be the last one

as for bike hire - unless you're going to Mallorca or Dartmoor, it's not worth even thinking about. Hence the van with the cook.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

User13710 said:


> That's great news, but Susie is not the best barometer for cyclists like me any more. And can we lose the use of the word 'wimps' please @StuartG - that might be how you see yourself, but it's not how I see my lack of climbing ability.


she's no kind of barometer - she's an intelligent observer able to make judgements based on her knowledge of the Fridays


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## ianrauk (25 Jun 2013)

Bike hire - no
Van & cook - yes


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

I'm looking at Channel Ports to La Rochelle/Bordeaux with Martin. A shade more bucolic, but possibly less dramatic - albeit that we could hug the western coast down to La Rochelle.

The Irun to Girona (I've been playing with it) trip would allow Doctor Mark and friends to loop northward, adding perhaps forty or fifty miles to a day and crack a few passes. That might interest you, Ian. At the moment the basic ride comes in at about 412 miles over six days. Susie is keen to do a recce (if you pick a stretch of road pretty much at random and go street view it's pretty compelling stuff) so we'll see if we can get it done this autumn

The basic thing is the money. I'm alert to people's concerns on this. One or two people did LonJog on £300 plus grub (£95 for the coach, about half that for the van, and maybe £25 a night for accommodation). I'd have thought Normandy was a bit more expensive. Northern Spain would be more expensive still, but it's a question of how much more expensive.

Accommodation isn't that expensive. I'm closing in on the van hire, and the driver/chef would probably set us back about £20 each. It's hiring the coach down and back up that's the difficulty.
http://www.lumbier.es/es/visitenos/dondedormir/object.aspx?o=3243
http://www.lumbier.es/es/visitenos/dondedormir/object.aspx?o=3244


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## PaulRide (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Paul - I keep trying to dump the Paris ride and this might indeed be the last one


Just to clarify, the Paris ride of which she spoke was our own family pootle rather than the Fridays version.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

PaulRide said:


> Just to clarify, the Paris ride of which she spoke was our own family pootle rather than the Fridays version.


sorry - I misunderstood
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr...,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,13,17,18,19,20,21&t=m&z=13


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## rvw (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm looking at Channel Ports to La Rochelle/Bordeaux with Martin. A shade more bucolic, but possibly less dramatic - albeit that we could hug the western coast down to La Rochelle.


S&I - with heavier tandem, laden - took, IIRC, two weeks from De Panne to Bordeaux. S can probably still find the routes, if that would help, though we included various tweaks which added time (mainly to avoid hills, but also a detour to visit the Ile de Noirmoutier, which was my French exchange location). One thing we nearly got very wrong was around Le Mans - one day later and the race would have closed several roads in our direct path!


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## rvw (25 Jun 2013)

Oh - and there is one little D road (the D9? @srw needs to confirm) leading down into La Rochelle which is positively suicidal. It's a nice, narrow, straight road which means that the thundering HGVs can see far enough to overtake each other - right into the path of an oncoming tandem...


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## MarkA (25 Jun 2013)

2517717 said:


> You clearly didn't see quite how small my private bath was.


 
I was never invited to see your privates in the bath 

Just sayin'


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

http://goo.gl/maps/aDkUL for London to Gelsenkirchen, Soest and Berlin


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## mmmmartin (25 Jun 2013)

As for Spanish hotel charges
In January from Gib to Madrid I paid €40 per night for a twin room pretty much all the way. Even a working men's hostel in a working class town was that price. In a very ppor town we paid 35 I think and once paid 50 for a really posh place inc breakfast. The Ibis at Madrid airport was €60 per night. Not sure what the Pyrennees foothills would charge.


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## MarkA (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/Bkl1g ?


 This looks very tasty, and the option of extensions into the hills has me positively salivating in anticipation. I do like hills, just in case nobody noticed.


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## srw (25 Jun 2013)

Our routes to Bordeaux are in the first link in my sig - but accommodation is hit and miss. There's one small hotel (and presumably a campsite) every 20miles. Bordeaux's a decent destination in a way that La Rochelle probably isn't.


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## Aperitif (25 Jun 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Bike hire - no
> Van & Nicholas - yes


 
FTFY


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## redfalo (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Paul - I keep trying to dump the Paris ride and this might indeed be the last one


 
 oh no, please don't. It's really one of the best rides in the portfolio


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## redfalo (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/aDkUL for London to Gelsenkirchen, Soest and Berlin


 
oh yes, looks good.

If there isn't football involved, there is no need to go via Gelsenkirchen though. I instantly see the point about Soest of course. I would recommend going north of Gelsenkirchen and cutting down to Soest south east of Dortmund (something like this, what I have ridden with Katharina last year: http://www.gpsies.com/map.do?fileId=eiisqblpcarmnqih) This avoids going through the German equivalent of the midlands.

This is the way Mice and I took last November to Gelsenkirchen.
http://www.gpsies.com/map.do?fileId=avppallzcfbxqmtk


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## redfalo (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> http://goo.gl/maps/aDkUL for London to Gelsenkirchen, Soest and Berlin


 
Here is a brief itinerary of how this route could look like. http://goo.gl/maps/8rglg

All cities for overnight stays have youth hostels, where a bed (in a 6 to 8 beeded room) costs about 30/35 Euros (=26-31 Pounds) including breadfast. Youth hostels also offer rooms with 2 to 4 beds these days, and all cities are big enough to have real hotels as well. Some days might appear a bit long, but it's mostly flat.



*Day 1 - Friday*
night ride to Harwich

*Day 2 - Saturday*
get on the morning ferry in Harwich, which leaves at 9am, and arrives at Hoek of Holland ferry port at 5pm
Hoek of Holland to central Rotterdam - *20 miles* ( a lovely traffic free ride btw)

*Day 3 - Sunday:*
Rotterdam to Kleve – 81 miles

*Day 4 - Monday:*
Kleve – Lünen – 70 miles

*Day 5 - Tuesday: *
Lünen – Paderborn via Soest – 60 miles

*Day 6 - Wednesday:*
Paderborn – Goslar 88 miles

*Day 7 - Thursday: *
Goslar to Magdeburg – 60 miles

*Day 8 - Friday*
Magdeburg – Berlin – 88 miles

Regarding a recce: Gordon and MMMartin already expressed their interest. I could do an extended weekend.


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## mistral (25 Jun 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> As for Spanish hotel charges
> In January from Gib to Madrid I paid €40 per night for a twin room pretty much all the way. Even a* working men's hostel* in a *working class town* was that price. In a very ppor town we paid 35 I think and once paid 50 for a really posh place inc breakfast. The Ibis at Madrid airport was €60 per night. Not sure what the Pyrennees foothills would charge.


How did you cope with all the scrofulous peasants?


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## Tim Hall (25 Jun 2013)

Dellzeqq, in addition to Redfalo's input, I reckon Auntie Helen could provide useful stuff about riding from the UK to Berlin. It seems she does it every other week. (slight exaggeration for effect).


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

hhmmmm.... I'm not sure about Kleve. The residents of Soest haven't forgiven them for this

"Wisset hochgeborener Fürst, Herr Dietrich von Moers, dass wir, Bürgermeister, Rat, Gilden, Ämter, Bruderschaften und die ganze Gemeinheit der Stadt Soest, Eurer Lande, Leute, Untertanen und aller derjenigen, die Euch untergeben sind, Feind sein wollen. Und wir entsagen Euch in und mit diesem Brief, weil wir den hochgeborenen unseren gnädigen lieben Junker Johann, ältesten Sohn von Kleve und von der Mark, lieber haben als Euch und die Eurigen, und wir wollen deswegen gegen Euch und Eure Leute unsere Ehre verwahrt haben.“


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## Gordon P (25 Jun 2013)

redfalo said:


> Regarding a recce: Gordon and MMMartin already expressed their interest. I could do an extended weekend.


I'm agnostic about what, how & where, partly 'cos I think together we can sort something brilliant out whatever, & partly as (sadly) I may not be available to come along next June as an antipodean trip is on the cards.
However I am up for a recce although not this autumn & November is probably too late! Anywhere anytime next spring until end of May.


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## redfalo (25 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> hhmmmm.... I'm not sure about Kleve. The residents of Soest haven't forgiven them for this
> 
> "Wisset hochgeborener Fürst, Herr Dietrich von Moers, dass wir, Bürgermeister, Rat, Gilden, Ämter, Bruderschaften und die ganze Gemeinheit der Stadt Soest, Eurer Lande, Leute, Untertanen und aller derjenigen, die Euch untergeben sind, Feind sein wollen. Und wir entsagen Euch in und mit diesem Brief, weil wir den hochgeborenen unseren gnädigen lieben Junker Johann, ältesten Sohn von Kleve und von der Mark, lieber haben als Euch und die Eurigen, und wir wollen deswegen gegen Euch und Eure Leute unsere Ehre verwahrt haben.“


 
History, again.

English: http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/15cen/soestfeud14441449.html
more extensive version in German: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soester_Fehde

This is the first time I've heard about that, BTW.


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## redfalo (25 Jun 2013)

Tim Hall said:


> Dellzeqq, in addition to Redfalo's input, I reckon Auntie Helen could provide useful stuff about riding from the UK to Berlin. It seems she does it every other week. (slight exaggeration for effect).


Here's Helen's blog post on her 2012 trip from Berlin to the big smoke (done in 17 rather than 7 days, tough) http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk/berlin-to-london/


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## martint235 (25 Jun 2013)

This could be just me but a 8 hour ferry trip could be asking for trouble.... just sayin'


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## ianmac62 (25 Jun 2013)

One coach company which specialises in hiring coaches to cycling groups is Boultons of Shropshire (http://www.boultonsofshropshire.com). There's only a hint on their website that they do this. I travelled on one of their coaches last summer from Northampton to Hamburg and then back from Dresden to Northampton at the start and end of a CTC holiday. IIRC, the coach and driver went off to do other contract hires during the two weeks we were pedalling.
Like BikeExpress, the coach picked up at a number of points from Nottingham to Dover. Unlike BikeExpress, the coaches are for hire; the bikes travel inside (half the seats are taken out); and the hirer determines the pick-up points, the destination and the return pick up. The hirer can also determine the venue of an overnight stop (e.g. at a motel) during the journey(s). We stopped near Breda on the way out and near Ghent on the way back.
The driver on this particular holiday was Mick Boulton and the family have an interest in cycling.
The company might well take a group from England to Bilbao and then from Gerona to England. Worth an enquiry?


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## dellzeqq (25 Jun 2013)

martint235 said:


> This could be just me but a 8 hour ferry trip could be asking for trouble.... just sayin'


it is just you


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## srw (25 Jun 2013)

An 8-hour ferry trip is enough to reserve a Commodore class cabin and get 8 hours of sleep and breakfast in bed.


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## martint235 (25 Jun 2013)

2518708 said:


> Probably just you.


 


dellzeqq said:


> it is just you


 
Hey I seem to remember Davywalnuts helping last time!!


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## Flying Dodo (26 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm looking at Channel Ports to La Rochelle/Bordeaux with Martin. A shade more bucolic, but possibly less dramatic - albeit that we could hug the western coast down to La Rochelle.


 
I think this idea might work better for next year, and appeal to a broader range of people, rather than Spain*. Being that much closer to the UK, it will enable people to dip in and join on sections if they wanted to. In fact you could hug the coast most of the way but cut across south from St. Malo - St. Brieuc, with interesting little diversions to places of interest such as Bayeux, Mont St Michel, Carnac etc. Or nice hills. Which would be nice. About 1,000 km to La Rochelle.

Although again, you've got the issues about getting back to the UK, but that coach thing could work.


* Edit - plus of course gets round the awkward fact that in theory, unless it's boiling hot, you;re supposed to wear a helmet in Spain. So France wins, on requiring less luggage.


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## redfalo (26 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> as for bike hire - unless you're going to *Mallorca* ... it's not worth even thinking about. .


 
which might be another option? A Normandy style thing with hired bikes in Mallorca? Would make logistics a lot easier, and the island is supposed to be a cycling eldorado (I've never been there)


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## Flying Dodo (26 Jun 2013)

2519507 said:


> The things that make Mallorca a cycling mecca are not for the hill averse.


 
If you're considering an island tour, I'd prefer Tenerife.


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## StuartG (26 Jun 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> If you're considering an island tour, I'd prefer Tenerife.


Better a winter tour than a summer at that latitude. Air fares are expensive compared with Ballerics. Also lacks variety - it either round the edge or up the volcano ...


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## ianrauk (26 Jun 2013)

redfalo said:


> which might be another option? A Normandy style thing with hired bikes in Mallorca? Would make logistics a lot easier, and the island is supposed to be a cycling eldorado (I've never been there)


 


Can you please knock the hired bikes thing on the head.. ta!


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## StuartG (26 Jun 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Can you please knock the hired bikes thing on the head.. ta!


Ian - you are free to take your own. Why seek to deny others a choice?


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## StuAff (26 Jun 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Can you please knock the hired bikes thing on the head.. ta!


Unless the firm has bikes available in spec equal or better to my own, and (more importantly) the right size with the ability to get the right fit, I'd rather bring my own, even if it meant buying a decent bike bag and paying airline charges for it.

Edit: Stuart does have a point though, that option might work better for some.


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## ianrauk (26 Jun 2013)

StuartG said:


> Ian - you are free to take your own. Why seek to deny others a choice?


 


Sorry, internet forum humour doesn't come across well sometimes. Just that Olaf has mentioned it a few times now.


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## redfalo (26 Jun 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Sorry, internet forum humour doesn't come across well sometimes. Just that Olaf has mentioned it a few times now.


oh, I'm not too fond of hiring bikes as well, TBH and would try to bring my own.


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## mmmmartin (26 Jun 2013)

Stop wittering on about bike hire. Ask yourself this question: would Dellzeqq do it? Do you have an answer? Ok.
Seems to me it is down to spain, france or Germany. I suspect a recce will provide answers that will inform the final decision, which will be made by Dellzeqq. Be aware that his Spanish route contains no mountains at all merely long easy gradients.


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## theclaud (26 Jun 2013)

I like Spain. I like boats and trains. I like hills and mountains. I don't much like camping. I like The Fridays. Count me in.

If we go through Pamplona we can meet up with my mum doing her Camino stuff. The most important things for me are that the holiday as a whole is not expensive and that it doesn't oblige me to fly. I don't like coaches as much as trains or boats, but I warm to them whenever they are cheap and convenient and full of my favourite bicyclists.


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## dellzeqq (26 Jun 2013)

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=Irun, Spain&daddr=43.0291099,-1.6282867 to:42.7791366,-1.4526079 to:Lumbier, Navarre, Spain to:42.6272929,-1.3166741 to:42.617158,-1.275128 to:42.6229809,-1.267461 to:42.6179396,-1.1857973 to:42.5570857,-0.4904631 to:42.5468641,-0.422688 to:42.5185025,-0.3678049 to:42.5081979,-0.3534187 to:42.4844561,-0.2971248 to:42.480989,-0.278922 to:42.4744087,-0.2598672 to:42.4689101,-0.1909004 to:Fiscal, Spain to:El Pont de Suert, Spain to:La Seu d'Urgell, Spain to:Olot, Spain to:42.1341383,2.6588246 to:42.010323,2.8170614 to:Girona, Spain to:41.8897768,2.8727919 to:Tossa de Mar, Spain&hl=en&ll=41.868538,2.833099&spn=0.427981,0.617294&sll=41.863169,2.91069&sspn=0.212986,0.308647&geocode=FZFPlQIdcKjk_ykXSGeoiwhRDTG4S9GAkZ__hg;FXWSkAIdgifn_ykDkS-StuVQDTFJQCGsSn5D5g;FQDCjAIdwdXp_ykJAM44pr5QDTFopIYz6_c4pA;Fa3TigId5APs_yn7B8lrjK5QDTFbVftO_TuneQ;FdxwigIdvujr_ynzVUx-zq5QDTE8hyv_oD9goA;FUZJ igIdCIvs_ylNZlxT8atQDTHqkbPW6sVuFg%3BFQRgigId-6js_yk3LUx6daxQDTGSxAuZgdKi_w%3BFVNMigId--ft_ykXH273m1RXDTGrAHBHstnM1g%3BFZ1eiQIdIYT4_ynd-ktxhIdXDTFNTJ6lVTS63g%3BFbA2iQId4Iz5_ykngATtiCdYDTGWG7hZ8TcsHQ%3BFebHiAIdRGP6_ymnhkem0SBYDTF6cw0pofuBbA%3BFaWfiAIddpv6_yn7uc2GHiFYDTHoV7q1xQ5fjA%3BFehCiAIdXHf7_ylLxnw4RR9YDTFYIiK3Jamhkw%3BFV01iAIddr77_yktuiItLh9YDTG8fnHHLgJlXw%3BFagbiAId5Qj8_yk7dG3H1R5YDTFrKoqkbNWJwg%3BFS4GiAIdTBb9_ynJ_qqgixtYDTHm_qwrWehF8g%3BFUZxiAId-Sf-_ymtfXzIDQNYDTHheRwWQgC5Kg%3BFW4YhwIdxk0LACmPQ11V7C-mEjEXPRpmCsr-jA%3BFUFZhgId5UMWACl74m6Wxe2lEjHtntEPPtn_2g%3BFUCmgwId2PYlACk3aLxr38q6EjF7O9P_HARpnw%3BFXrqggIdCJIoACmP0ySdfMa6EjE51fBm_WgRNA%3BFdMGgQIdJfwqACl17pnarOe6EjEGX7qeV1CNug%3BFfBxgAIdIwcrACmr_ciYJ-e6EjFvaimltkU4rw%3BFfAvfwId19UrACn9v8q_DuK6EjHppDde4N7Myw%3BFYOifAIdwLYsACmhqhGspxq7EjHNNIPsSk9hog&oq=Tossa&doflg=ptm&mra=dpe&mrsp=23&sz=12&via=1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,20,21,23&t=m&z=11 
</ div>

Train/coach to Hendaye. Ride from Irun to Lumbier, Fiscal, Le Pont de Suert, La Seu d'Urgell, Olot, Girona and then, for those that wants, on to Tossa. Train/coach home.

Am speaking to vastly experienced cycling chef.


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## StuAff (26 Jun 2013)

Huge unwieldly linky worky. Me likey 

My preference would still be for the Berlin option, both in terms of destination and climate, but Spain would be good (suffice to say the options for the psychoclimbingnutters to go col-bagging appeal), as would pootling/racing through France again. 

On price: Normandy might have worked out pricier than LonJOG (I haven't done personal costings for either, nor do I intend to, frankly), but then we were obliged, nay, forced, to consume vast quantities of high-quality grub and drinks at ridiculously low prices. Michelin-starred lunch for €15? Outrageous!


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## dellzeqq (26 Jun 2013)

http://www.hotelirubide.com/
http://www.hostalrioara.com/Contenido/Inicio.aspx 
http://www.hotelcotori.com/EN/hotel.html 
http://www.parador.es/es/parador-de-la-seu-d-urgell/fotos 
http://bellmirall.eu/


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## PaulRide (26 Jun 2013)

This is all very exciting. My ability to focus on the drafting of a fiddly deed of variation this afternoon is fading fast. I must remind myself that we are discussing something 12 months off and that in the meantime it would be good to hang on to gainful employment.


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## ianmac62 (26 Jun 2013)

What is this "gainful employment" of which you speak?


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## martint235 (26 Jun 2013)

ianmac62 said:


> What is this "gainful employment" of which you speak?


 Generally rescuing people from A&E depts is gainful employment on these jaunts.


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## redfalo (26 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Train/coach to Hendaye. Ride from Irun to Lumbier, Fiscal, Le Pont de Suert, La Seu d'Urgell, Olot, Girona and then, for those that wants, on to Tossa. Train/coach home.


 
Wow, this sounds good. One can get on the Eurostar at 17:31 and get on a night train in Paris, which arrives in Hendaye on 8.31am. Depending on dates, I'm in.


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## theclaud (26 Jun 2013)

A tantalizing screenshot from His Nibs!


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## Flying Dodo (26 Jun 2013)

I hope that's a one way road. Wouldn't want to meet a giant Spanish lorry heading for me..............


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## StuartG (26 Jun 2013)

I'm beginning to see the point about helmets ...


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## PaulRide (26 Jun 2013)

ianmac62 said:


> What is this "gainful employment" of which you speak?


 
erm, it's where I ride my bike for about 40 minutes, then spend about 8 or 9 hours dreaming of being somewhere else, rounded off with another 40 minute bike ride

repeat 5 times a week for a whole month, and money magically appears in my bank account, only to disappear again shortly before I get a chance to take any of it to a bike shop


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## Tim Hall (26 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Train/coach to Hendaye. Ride from Irun to Lumbier, Fiscal, Le Pont de Suert, La Seu d'Urgell, Olot, Girona and then, for those that wants, on to Tossa. Train/coach home.
> 
> Am speaking to vastly experienced cycling chef.


 
Wikipedia says about Hendaye:



> In October 23, 1940, Ramón Serrano Súñer, Francisco Franco, Adolf Hitler and Joachim von Ribbentrop met in the Hendaye railway station (then in German-occupied France) to discuss Spain's participation in World War II as part of the Axis.


.

Wow. Just wow.

I went there on a school trip to Spain. Night train from Calais, then unreliable coach from Hendaye to Madrid. Spanish trains beat to a different drum run on a different gauge to the rest of Europe. I once asked a Spanish colleague why. "Teem, it ees to prevent invasions."


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## ianmac62 (26 Jun 2013)

Tim Hall said:


> Wow. Just wow."


+1


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## mistral (26 Jun 2013)

Flying Dodo said:


> If you're considering an island tour, I'd prefer Tenerife.


Madagascar, somewhere I've always wanted to go


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## StuAff (26 Jun 2013)

Having done my MA dissertation on Anglo-Spanish relations during the period, that meeting sprang to mind when Hendaye was mentioned. It didn't go well- neither side happy with the results. Súñer was so upset by Ribbentrop's attitude he was still smarting forty years later.


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## rvw (26 Jun 2013)

theclaud said:


> A tantalizing screenshot from His Nibs!
> 
> View attachment 25320


I don't know whether srw has yet seen that photo, but I don't think he'd be too happy on a tandem on that kind of road! Usually when we drive on roads like that, I drive and he keeps his eyes firmly closed. Which will _not _work on the tandem... I should point out admit that I prefer to drive on that kind of terrain because (a) I am, at least nominally, in control, and (b) I'm about 3ft further from the drop. So, on a tandem, I'd probably take home a vivid recollection of the centre of the back of whichever jersey S was wearing!


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## srw (26 Jun 2013)

Unless I've misinterpreted the photo, there's no drop - it's a sheer canyon cut into a slab of rock. A bit like a cut-and-cover tunnel where they've forgotten to put a lid on again.


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## rvw (26 Jun 2013)

My guess was a drop to the right - or why the concrete blocks?


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## Andrew Br (26 Jun 2013)

Helen and I have cycled from Olot to the sea (St. Feliu de Guixols in our case) via Girona and it was an excellent trip.
There were some nice climbs on very quiet roads followed by even better descents. Part of the route was along disused railway lines so some of the surfaces were unmade but they were very smooth. The only disappointing part was the last bit into St Feliu.
As DZ has said, Girona is quite a place !

Pictures here:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/31668252@N05/sets/72157634345410844/

ETA: If the dates work out for us, Helen and I are almost certainly in.

.


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## StuAff (26 Jun 2013)

Should we be doing Spain (and I'm getting the impression that's winning at the mo) my options for getting to Hendaye or Irun would be either up to St Pancras and then the Eurostar/sleeper from Paris as detailed by Olaf (£226 I think was the cheapest option, sheesh), or ferry over to Bilbao or Santander (neither very convenient for a Saturday AM ride start) and trains and/or ride from there. Ride to Irun would be about 90 miles with over 12k of climbing....eek.


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## redfalo (27 Jun 2013)

StuAff said:


> Should we be doing Spain (and I'm getting the impression that's winning at the mo) my options for getting to Hendaye or Irun would be either up to St Pancras and then the Eurostar/sleeper from Paris as detailed by Olaf (£226 I think was the cheapest option, sheesh)


I haven't had a look at train prices yet, but that would be my preferred option as well. Another idea might be to get to Calais, Caen or Cherbourg, hire a car there and then blast through France. With four people - and a big car that has room for four bikes - that might be the cheapest option?


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## dellzeqq (27 Jun 2013)

StuAff said:


> Should we be doing Spain (and I'm getting the impression that's winning at the mo) my options for getting to Hendaye or Irun would be either up to St Pancras and then the Eurostar/sleeper from Paris as detailed by Olaf (£226 I think was the cheapest option, sheesh), or ferry over to Bilbao or Santander (neither very convenient for a Saturday AM ride start) and trains and/or ride from there. Ride to Irun would be about 90 miles with over 12k of climbing....eek.


calm down, calm down........

train from St. Pancras to Hendaye on Saturday is about £100 (I've yet to talk to SNCF about group discounts) - and the ride would start on Sunday. A coach might be less expensive - and I'm pursuing that as well. budgeting for 40 participants, with 28 bikes in the van and 12 (mostly the oddballs) in the coach hold.

this is a page from the website of the company that Ian recommended and they say they are up for it http://www.boultonsofshropshire.com/cycletours.aspx


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## dellzeqq (27 Jun 2013)

srw said:


> Unless I've misinterpreted the photo, there's no drop - it's a sheer canyon cut into a slab of rock. A bit like a cut-and-cover tunnel where they've forgotten to put a lid on again.


you're right - it's an artificial gorge. At one point there is a drop on one side and a waterfall goes over your head during the snowmelt season. It's very dramatic. But not at all steep.

the concrete thingummys stop you falling in to a mini-ravine that takes the water away. Without that the snow melt would just run down the roadway.


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## StuartG (27 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> calm down, calm down........
> 
> train from St. Pancras to Hendaye on Saturday is about £100 (I've yet to talk to SNCF about group discounts) - and the ride would start on Sunday. A coach might be less expensive - and I'm pursuing that as well. budgeting for 40 participants, with 28 bikes in the van and 12 (mostly the oddballs) in the coach hold.


That would be good. Which begs the question - what about doing the French side down to Perpignan - or better still Colliore ... even nicer than Tossa.


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## dellzeqq (27 Jun 2013)

the french side has awful roads, way, way more traffic, and is not one tenth as striking. (And I cannot stand Collioure or Argeles or any of those places)


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## StuartG (27 Jun 2013)

OK, your call ... in which case is it worth factoring in 40 Viernes shirts to impress the senoritas? Hmmm. black might be a trifle warm in June way down south.


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## mmmmartin (27 Jun 2013)

Er, can we rethink that stu? In Spain wearing Blackshirts, esp in the Basque region? Not good.


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## StuAff (27 Jun 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> Er, can we rethink that stu? In Spain wearing Blackshirts, esp in the Basque region? Not good.


Red stars might make a difference. And I'm pretty sure people wear black in the Basque country without problems. Blue was the Falange colour of choice, anyway......


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## srw (28 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> the french side has awful roads, way, way more traffic, and is not one tenth as striking. (And I cannot stand Collioure or Argeles or any of those places)


If the Spanish side is half a striking as the section between Collioure and the border it's going to be doing very well indeed. There's quite a lot of traffic on that coast road but it's mostly harmless - because it's used to a lot of riders. The real danger is that the wind might get up, which on a tandem is Not Fun.

North of Collioure you track slightly inland and there are very quiet roads all the way to Perpignan - because everyone's hugging the coast.


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## rb58 (28 Jun 2013)

StuAff said:


> Red stars might make a difference. And I'm pretty sure people wear black in the Basque country without problems. Blue was the Falange colour of choice, anyway......


I have a Euskaltel Euskadi shirt. Can I come?


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## ianrauk (28 Jun 2013)

rb58 said:


> I have a Euskaltel Euskadi shirt. Can I come?


 


That will go well with your proposed new pink cranked bike...


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## dellzeqq (28 Jun 2013)

srw said:


> If the Spanish side is half a striking as the section between Collioure and the border it's going to be doing very well indeed. There's quite a lot of traffic on that coast road but it's mostly harmless - because it's used to a lot of riders. The real danger is that the wind might get up, which on a tandem is Not Fun.
> 
> North of Collioure you track slightly inland and there are very quiet roads all the way to Perpignan - because everyone's hugging the coast.


we found the roads inland absolutely rammed. If there'd been a train station handy our trip would have been over there and then. Both times I've been across northern Spain the wind has been coming from the west - and in a big way.


just to be clear - we're talking about a tad over 400 miles in six days - that's a bit under seventy miles a day. Now, as ever, the recce will tell all, but we'd be on roads that, aside from the first day, have very few junctions, and that makes for steady progress. If you work out how long it takes to get out of London to (say) Strood, and then work out how long it takes to get from Strood to Whitstable you've got to reckon about two minutes a junction. If there are only six junctions in a day, as opposed to thirty, that's quite a saving


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## ianmac62 (28 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> If there are only six junctions in a day, as opposed to thirty, that's quite a saving



Particularly if, like me, you take a photograph at each junction.


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## StuartG (28 Jun 2013)

srw said:


> North of Collioure you track slightly inland and there are very quiet roads all the way to Perpignan - because everyone's hugging the coast.


Yes that was my experience too and albeit only the last mile or so would be on the coast. And the roads along the mountains were quite quiet too when I did it by car. Though DZ has a point in there are far more minor roads, ie junctions on the French side. The French side is spectacular - but IME a bit lusher lacking the bare beauty of the Spanish side.

The choice is essentially a technical one and a vital one with a potential 40 riders. And DZ is best placed to evaluate that ...

A Spanish ride would be different. The real 'ard folks might wish to consider riding back to Hendaye t'other way and enjoy the best of both for a second week ....


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## mistral (28 Jun 2013)

In my youth I did the Pyrenees, from Atlantic to Med and the Spanish side is spectacular. And the prospect of doing this with the Fridays is v appealing. I'd love to do this ride, but it may clash with A levels, so will have to look at dates etc.


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## rb58 (28 Jun 2013)

ianrauk said:


> That will go well with your proposed new pink cranked bike...


They're not pink, they're purple. @User has the monopoly on pink.


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## rb58 (28 Jun 2013)

mistral said:


> In my youth I did the Pyrenees, from Atlantic to Med and the Spanish side is spectacular. And the prospect of doing this with the Fridays is v appealing. I'd love to do this ride, but it may clash with A levels, so will have to look at dates etc.


You don't look old enough to be doing A levels.....


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## rb58 (28 Jun 2013)

For what it's worth, I favour the tour option, and the Pyrenees have been on my list for quite a while, so something that allows those that want to the opportunity to head into the 'hills' is the most interesting for me.


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## martint235 (28 Jun 2013)

2523264 said:


> Mick has a pink cap.


 Yes but you did lend it to him....


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## mistral (28 Jun 2013)

2523264 said:


> Mick has a pink cap.


It's the new black


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## StuartG (28 Jun 2013)

StuartG said:


> The real 'ard folks might wish to consider riding back to Hendaye t'other way and enjoy the best of both for a second week ....


You might get a lift on this - though I'm not sure of Le Petit Train Jaune's cycle policy:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=petit train jaune&client=ubuntu&hs=CBs&channel=cs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=DWfNUdRExu3SBbzSgUg&ved=0CEkQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=983


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## dellzeqq (28 Jun 2013)

I've had a chat with the estimable Mr. Boulton (once again, thanks, Ian). He likes the cut of our jib. He won't be able to get back to us with a price for a couple of weeks, but, given that we'll not be able to do the recce before late September, that's fine. He was especially keen on the late Friday night start and our luggage weight limit.

Going up to see SNCF re group travel next week - so I would have thought that by the Felpham ride I should have a bit of a cost plan.

In the mean time I'll spend some energy looking at the west coast of France down to Rochefort and Hendaye, bearing in mind that the cost of the London to Hendaye will be about the cost of Hendaye to London. There's a ferry called the Bac Royan-Ponte de Grave that looks pretty cool


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## dellzeqq (28 Jun 2013)

oh, and apropos of nothing at all, the Rose Restaurant in Southend has re-opened.


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## srw (28 Jun 2013)

The Medoc is heavenly for a tandem - flat roads, great tarmac (resurfaced for the TdF in 2010). 

If we'd known about the Bac Royan we'd have planned our route to include it. As it was we took the ferry slightly further down. It's lovely, but has idiosyncratic hours (long luunch break, different times on different days).


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## dellzeqq (28 Jun 2013)

2523542 said:


> New owners or has Chris pulled rabbits out of hats?


pulled 'em out and stuck 'em in a risotto......he called me this lunchtime.

The sad thing is that we were timetabled to go there tonight.......


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## clivedb (28 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> ...
> 
> A coach might be less expensive - and I'm pursuing that as well. budgeting for 40 participants, with 28 bikes in the van and 12 (mostly the oddballs) in the coach hold.


 
I'm concerned for the oddballs who will be in the coach hold.


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## thom (28 Jun 2013)

srw said:


> If the Spanish side is half a striking as the section between Collioure and the border it's going to be doing very well indeed. There's quite a lot of traffic on that coast road but it's mostly harmless - because it's used to a lot of riders. The real danger is that the wind might get up, which on a tandem is Not Fun.


The real danger in that part of Spain is the heat - in mid summer there are parts just south of the mountains that can get very hot and dusty. The mid-summer climate is quite different to the French side, much drier, hotter and also much less inhabited.


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## dellzeqq (28 Jun 2013)

we'd be going in June, so it shouldn't be so very hot.

http://www.yr.no/place/Spain/Navarra/Pamplona/statistics.html
http://www.yr.no/place/Spain/Catalonia/Girona/statistics.html
http://www.yr.no/place/Spain/Basque_Country/Irun/statistics.html


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## SaLQ83 (28 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I don't know of anybody who was put off by Normandy as a destination.
> 
> In a general way, people might be put off by the cost, the terrain or the weather. I suppose they might be put off by a lack of interest in the part of the world the tour goes to.
> 
> The big issue with northern Spain is the cost, and that depends, critically, on the journey to the start and the return from the finish. That's what I'll be attempting to sort in the next week or so. On every other front it's a great holiday - the countryside is beautiful, the towns and villages are striking, the roads are easy and the weather in June is likely to be congenial. The big thing for me is that organising on the road would be easy-peasy. The low traffic levels, the lack of traffic, the consistency of the roads would make my life much more relaxed. Thirty five people across Edinburgh - nightmare. Fifty people from Pamplona to Jaca - piece of cake.


 

@GVSAM7 and I have been meaning to cycle Bilbao area for a long time.... So our question is where do we sign?


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## martint235 (28 Jun 2013)

I must admit that my concerns with Spain are as you say DZ, costs. I do have to justify a one sided holiday to SWMBO


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## martint235 (28 Jun 2013)

2524276 said:


> Have you tried saying "I'll be away for a whole week"?


That's not the difficult bit, she'd welcome that bit. It's the following bit" and it will cost me a grand " that she'll have issues with.


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## martint235 (28 Jun 2013)

2524290 said:


> You could sell a kidney when we reach the finish.


I always have a worry I might need them both


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## martint235 (28 Jun 2013)

2524300 said:


> OK a bollock then, assuming that there is a market for those.


 
I don't know. I'm fairly sure there's a market for bullocks, particularly in Spain, but they are a bit harder to carry around.


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## srw (28 Jun 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> In the mean time I'll spend some energy looking at the west coast of France down to Rochefort and Hendaye, bearing in mind that the cost of the London to Hendaye will be about the cost of Hendaye to London. There's a ferry called the Bac Royan-Ponte de Grave that looks pretty cool


And while I'm thinking of it, Rochefort has a _pont transporteur_ that is _even cooler_ than the one in Newport. And a 19th century suspension bridge that was resurface in 2008 using cheap non-weatherproof chipboard.


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## User10571 (28 Jun 2013)

2523919 said:


> Yes, shame that.


Bit of a bugger for all concerned....


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## Snail Bait (28 Jun 2013)

I hate hills but can I come?


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## theclaud (29 Jun 2013)

srw said:


> Rochefort has a _pont transporteur_ that is _even cooler_ than the one in Newport.


Steady on!


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## mmmmartin (2 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?saddr=Irun, Spain&daddr=43.0291099,-1.6282867 to:42.7791366,-1.4526079 to:Lumbier, Navarre, Spain to:42.6272929,-1.3166741 to:42.617158,-1.275128 to:42.6229809,-1.267461 to:42.6179396,-1.1857973 to:42.5570857,-0.4904631 to:42.5468641,-0.422688 to:42.5185025,-0.3678049 to:42.5081979,-0.3534187 to:42.4844561,-0.2971248 to:42.480989,-0.278922 to:42.4744087,-0.2598672 to:42.4689101,-0.1909004 to:Fiscal, Spain to:El Pont de Suert, Spain to:La Seu d'Urgell, Spain to:Olot, Spain to:42.1341383,2.6588246 to:42.010323,2.8170614 to:Girona, Spain to:41.8897768,2.8727919 to:Tossa de Mar, Spain&hl=en&ll=41.868538,2.833099&spn=0.427981,0.617294&sll=41.863169,2.91069&sspn=0.212986,0.308647&geocode=FZFPlQIdcKjk_ykXSGeoiwhRDTG4S9GAkZ__hg;FXWSkAIdgifn_ykDkS-StuVQDTFJQCGsSn5D5g;FQDCjAIdwdXp_ykJAM44pr5QDTFopIYz6_c4pA;Fa3TigId5APs_yn7B8lrjK5QDTFbVftO_TuneQ;FdxwigIdvujr_ynzVUx-zq5QDTE8hyv_oD9goA;FUZJ igIdCIvs_ylNZlxT8atQDTHqkbPW6sVuFg%3BFQRgigId-6js_yk3LUx6daxQDTGSxAuZgdKi_w%3BFVNMigId--ft_ykXH273m1RXDTGrAHBHstnM1g%3BFZ1eiQIdIYT4_ynd-ktxhIdXDTFNTJ6lVTS63g%3BFbA2iQId4Iz5_ykngATtiCdYDTGWG7hZ8TcsHQ%3BFebHiAIdRGP6_ymnhkem0SBYDTF6cw0pofuBbA%3BFaWfiAIddpv6_yn7uc2GHiFYDTHoV7q1xQ5fjA%3BFehCiAIdXHf7_ylLxnw4RR9YDTFYIiK3Jamhkw%3BFV01iAIddr77_yktuiItLh9YDTG8fnHHLgJlXw%3BFagbiAId5Qj8_yk7dG3H1R5YDTFrKoqkbNWJwg%3BFS4GiAIdTBb9_ynJ_qqgixtYDTHm_qwrWehF8g%3BFUZxiAId-Sf-_ymtfXzIDQNYDTHheRwWQgC5Kg%3BFW4YhwIdxk0LACmPQ11V7C-mEjEXPRpmCsr-jA%3BFUFZhgId5UMWACl74m6Wxe2lEjHtntEPPtn_2g%3BFUCmgwId2PYlACk3aLxr38q6EjF7O9P_HARpnw%3BFXrqggIdCJIoACmP0ySdfMa6EjE51fBm_WgRNA%3BFdMGgQIdJfwqACl17pnarOe6EjEGX7qeV1CNug%3BFfBxgAIdIwcrACmr_ciYJ-e6EjFvaimltkU4rw%3BFfAvfwId19UrACn9v8q_DuK6EjHppDde4N7Myw%3BFYOifAIdwLYsACmhqhGspxq7EjHNNIPsSk9hog&oq=Tossa&doflg=ptm&mra=dpe&mrsp=23&sz=12&via=1,2,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,20,21,23&t=m&z=11
> </ div>
> 
> Train/coach to Hendaye. Ride from Irun to Lumbier, Fiscal, Le Pont de Suert, La Seu d'Urgell, Olot, Girona and then, for those that wants, on to Tossa. Train/coach home.
> ...


 
a shorter link via bit.ly is here

http://bit.ly/19RqOGN


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## dellzeqq (2 Jul 2013)

I've done a bit more work and the last five days are now roughly this.....

http://goo.gl/maps/AkFEf Lumbier to Sabananigo (Day 2)
http://goo.gl/maps/HZMrT Sabananigo to Castellon de Sos (Day 3)
http://goo.gl/maps/125Vw Castellon de Sos to Sort (Day 4)
http://goo.gl/maps/bb6hY Sort to Ribes de Freser (where the Cava comes from) (Day 5))
http://goo.gl/maps/zbxCh Ribes de Freser to Gerona (Day 6)


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## ianmac62 (2 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I've done a bit more work and ... now roughly this.....
> http://goo.gl/maps/125Vw


 
They all look terrific but Calle to Sort looks amazing!


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## lilolee (2 Jul 2013)

I thnk the whole thing looks amazing


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## mmmmartin (2 Jul 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> RideWithGPS says it has 8,900 metres of climbing and is 656k in all. So if we do it in six days it would be like riding up Ditchling Beacon (which is 200m of climbing) seven times a day. Or, to put it another way, like riding one Ditchling Beacon per hour, every hour of the trip. Every day for six days.


I have revisited this. RidewithGPS is now on The Naughty Step. I am unsure if the numbers quoted above are correct. I was working out a different route (for a personal audax) in Spain, from Segovia to Santander, and then turned to Dell's planned route. RidewithGPS produced some very questionable figures for height gain, amd the elevation of climbs. For instance, it shows huge height gains for the first section but none at all for the second section. So my quoted figure for height gain is very suspect. If anyone can suggest a website that is more reliable we can obtain a more accurate idea of the hilliness of the route. Having looked at some Google Streetview sections, I suspect it is a relatively benign route.


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## StuAff (2 Jul 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> I have revisited this. RidewithGPS is now on The Naughty Step. I am unsure if the numbers quoted above are correct. I was working out a different route (for a personal audax) in Spain, from Segovia to Santander, and then turned to Dell's planned route. RidewithGPS produced some very questionable figures for height gain, amd the elevation of climbs. For instance, it shows huge height gains for the first section but none at all for the second section. So my quoted figure for height gain is very suspect. If anyone can suggest a website that is more reliable we can obtain a more accurate idea of the hilliness of the route. Having looked at some Google Streetview sections, I suspect it is a relatively benign route.


Try Bikehike.


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## srw (3 Jul 2013)

Bikehike is mostly useful for the UK. I use mapmyride.com - although the interface has been buggered about with hugely over the years (and not in a good way). It has the advantage that it assesses each major climb separately and assigns it a hill rating from 5 to HC - that's been pretty reliable when I've used it before. All the websites will use the same fundamental underlying data from google, but they will presumably have proprietary methods for turning that data into a height calculation.


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## dellzeqq (3 Jul 2013)

all those height programmes are nonsense. The figures for our jaunt in Normandy would have been miniscule, and given no indication of how tiring they were. It's about road surface and complexity.


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## StuAff (3 Jul 2013)

Nonsense is putting it a bit strong, though certainly the margins of error are a bit large. 
http://app.strava.com/activities/62184939 4000ft sounds about right for this one......


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## StuartG (3 Jul 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> TBH, I'm not sure what this adds to the sum of human knowledge but I thought some details might help.


Well this is moving the ride from _"Not on your Nelly"_ to finding some other excuse sinces I feel the inevitable sucking sound within my head of _"why should the others have all the fun"_?

Short of being dis-barred by DZ I shall start rummaging my man-drawer for my long lost collection of pesetas ...


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## User482 (3 Jul 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> Finally, Day 4 seems to have a lot of climbing – 4,597 metres thereof. But the steepest and highest section where the route goes over a high ridge is a long, steady angle. Not the short sharp stuff with which we were plagued in Normandy.
> 
> .


I'd treat the ridewithgps data with caution. In my experience the elevations can be wild over or under estimates. For example, La Marmotte is a recorded 5,000m climbing whereas the website has it as over 7,000m!


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## redfalo (3 Jul 2013)

mmmmartin said:


> And a glance at Google Streetview shows excellent tarmac, which again sits with my experience of the south of Spain in January. The government has spent a lot of money on roads.


I'm a bit surprised you did not mention your theory of where the money ultimately comes from.


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## dellzeqq (3 Jul 2013)

well, the bad news is.....

the weather in northern Spain is unpredictable. I've crossed from west to east in April and every day was biketastic. I've crossed in July and came close to falling off the bike with hypothermia. Susie and I encountered temperatures of 85deg in October. The key is the start time. The lack of vegetation and the very thin covering of soil means that it gets pretty cold at night. My plan has always to spring early starts on people if the temperature is going to go through the roof. 

By the way - the five days are days 2 to 6. The first day isn't susceptible to google maps, for reasons that are too complicated to go in to.


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## dellzeqq (3 Jul 2013)

having looked at the GPS files I really doubt the gradients that ridewithGPS comes up with. Those roads twist and turn to keep with the contours. I've come across one hill in all of Northern Spain that could be described as steep - and that was about as steep as Turners Hill. 

The tricky thing at this stage is that the N-260 is being upgraded. Wnere it is upgraded they put in tunnels, which I don't much fancy (although I have ridden through some tunnels). The old N260 diverts round the tunnels, but Google Maps may be out of date, and we may get there and have to make it up as we go along.


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## ianmac62 (3 Jul 2013)

redfalo said:


> I'm a bit surprised you did not mention your theory of where the money ultimately comes from.


It gets even better: Spanish mountains with German roads!


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## redfalo (3 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> The tricky thing at this stage is that the N-260 is being upgraded. Wnere it is upgraded they put in tunnels, which I don't much fancy (although I have ridden through some tunnels). The old N260 diverts round the tunnels, but Google Maps may be out of date, and we may get there and have to make it up as we go along.


 
I would expext that they keep the old roads open for cyclists. That's at least how they deal with it in Norway, and on La Gomera.


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## dellzeqq (3 Jul 2013)

I


redfalo said:


> I would expext that they keep the old roads open for cyclists. That's at least how they deal with it in Norway, and on La Gomera.


in the main, yes - but sometimes they're cut by the new road, and sometimes the old road is turned in to a farm road. That's why there's no substitute for having a look, and making enquiries about future works.


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## theclaud (3 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> . My plan has always to spring early starts on people


 
No shit!


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## ianrauk (3 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2532373, member: 30090"]No way has Ditchling got a max grad of 27%. I'd say the numbers are wrong.[/quote]



Not even close...


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## StuAff (3 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2532373, member: 30090"]No way has Ditchling got a max grad of 27%. I'd say the numbers are wrong.[/quote]
I'd agree. 15% or so on a few stretches, I think, but not much more than that.


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## srw (4 Jul 2013)

Maximum gradients are pretty meaningless because they'll be based on rounded numbers themselves based on inaccurate observations - you need to go with averages. 

That little slope up from the coast in Normandy (Apple Juice Hill) worked out at about 16% for a third of a mile. That was one tough bugger, and about as steep as I'd expect in most of continental Europe.


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## srw (4 Jul 2013)

[QUOTE 2532404, member: 30090"]
Bit of advice for you peeps doing the tour. Fit a triple, make hay and enjoy the ride.[/quote]
This. a 28-tooth chainring or a Rohloff makes the steepest ramps look like a walk in the park.


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## dellzeqq (4 Jul 2013)

srw said:


> Maximum gradients are pretty meaningless because they'll be based on rounded numbers themselves based on inaccurate observations - you need to go with averages.
> 
> That little slope up from the coast in Normandy (Apple Juice Hill) worked out at about 16% for a third of a mile. That was one tough bugger, and about as steep as I'd expect in most of continental Europe.


 
honestly, srw, I've never encountered anything that tough in northern Spain - although I do see numbers at the beginning of day 2 (the Foz de Lumbier) that suggests we have a couple of walkers on our hands. It's fair to say that one gradient can go on for hours, but you've got to get in to a groove that allows you to admire the scenery and share the time with those around you. And again - it is absolutely not my intention that people spend a week of their annual leave at some kind of boot camp. 419 (it's crept up) miles in six days is not a walk in the park, but it shouldn't be purgatory. If the recce tells us that the idea isn't a good one, then it will get offed, just as Barcelona to Nice got offed. I've corrected Day 3 a bit.

http://goo.gl/maps/AkFEf Lumbier to Sabananigo (Day 2)
http://goo.gl/maps/HZMrT Sabananigo to Castellon de Sos (Day 3)
http://goo.gl/maps/125Vw Castellon de Sos to Sort (Day 4)
http://goo.gl/maps/bb6hY Sort to Ribes de Freser (where the Cava comes from) (Day 5))
http://goo.gl/maps/zbxCh Ribes de Freser to Gerona (Day 6)


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## Flying Dodo (4 Jul 2013)

I'd also make the comment that any mapping website, as they only look at certain points to work out the amount of climbing or descending, will by default pick up extremes. You can easily get them showing a large figure such as a 20% incline, when actually out on the road, there might only be a stretch of say 3 feet which rises a lot more than the rest of the slope. On Ditchling there are a couple of spots like that.

So, don't worry about the numbers and trust Dell.


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## mmmmartin (4 Jul 2013)

Given that my earlier posts with figures for ascent from RidewithGPS are, on further investigation, utter nonsense, I have deleted as many as I can. And apologies for any confusion I may have caused


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## srw (5 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> honestly, srw, I've never encountered anything that tough in northern Spain


Ahem. May I remind you that there were only about three bikes that got all the way to the top without being pushed. Two of them belonged to hard men with thighs of steel. The other one carried two people.

Anyway - my point (if I have one) is not to complain. I'm interested in profiles generally (not of individual hills) simply to get a sense of how much practice I need to do.


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## StuAff (5 Jul 2013)

srw said:


> Ahem. May I remind you that there were only about *three* bikes that got all the way to the top without being pushed. Two of them belonged to hard men with thighs of steel. The other one carried two people.
> 
> Anyway - my point (if I have one) is not to complain. I'm interested in profiles generally (not of individual hills) simply to get a sense of how much practice I need to do.


Figure of speech there I think, it was definitely more than three. I made it and I don't exactly have thighs of steel.


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## ianmac62 (5 Jul 2013)

srw said:


> Ahem. May I remind you that there were only about three bikes that got all the way to the top without being pushed.



That's cider for you! 

What's the local tipple in the Spanish Pyrenees?


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## dellzeqq (5 Jul 2013)

TeeCee raced up it. As did Susie, albeit that she raced up it in a more genteel way.

I think I've spotted an absolute wall, but it's at the side of the road, not across it...


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## StuartG (5 Jul 2013)

User13710 said:


> They did indeed, whereas I couldn't even think about riding up it - it was all I could do to walk up it. That's what I meant about 'barometers' - anyone looking in from the outside might get the impression hills like that are within most Fridays' capabilities. They just aren't!


Well you are not rubbish TMN! I've seen you get up some impressive hills. Yes the extreme might defeat you but it is a bit insidious to make the division on who walked and who didn't. On the Normandy tour overall there were very few hills ANYBODY walked up.

IMHO that's not the real problem. The real problem is precisely the majority of hills we can ALL get up. Just some of us are going to do it slowly and puff a bit (or a lot).

The danger here is we are maybe looking at a lot of very long moderate climbs, not the Turners Hill/Ditchling one stop wonders. I'm sure TMN and me can get up 'em - but we will be doing it mighty slow. And a long climb will be a big time difference by the top. That leaves DZ with the issue of the wonder thighs folks standing around being bored and the wandered thighs people pushing uncomfortably hard to try and not be a burden and perhaps not enjoying the view as much as they could.

I'd like to do it. Those piccys are amazing and I'd hate to miss them. But it would be unfair to disguise the uneasiness some of us might feel.


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## redfalo (5 Jul 2013)

User13710 said:


> I'm trying to explain that some cyclists who in the past have been the Fridays lodestone for what's achievable and what's not have maybe moved on from that - well done them, and I'm very happy for them.


There were some pretty significant climbs on LonJOG, and we all got there....


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## StuAff (5 Jul 2013)

redfalo said:


> There were some pretty significant climbs on LonJOG, and we all got there....


Hear Hear!


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## ianrauk (5 Jul 2013)

StuAff said:


> Hear Hear!


 


There.... not hear........


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## dellzeqq (5 Jul 2013)

redfalo said:


> There were some pretty significant climbs on LonJOG, and we all got there....


quite. LonJoG was a tough ride - setting aside the first night/day stage, which was 119 miles, we had six days over seventy miles and two or three of those over 80 miles. We went over the A68, and traversed Edinburgh. Our shortest day was 60 miles, and, if you recall, we did what clubs should do, which is to help each other along a bit, and be in good cheer if we were waiting for the tail of the ride.

Now........LonJoG and Normandy were very different items. Spain (if it is a goer) will be completely different again. The days will be shorter than LonJoG and the approach (with a couple of exceptions) will be very different: leave early, choose a gear low enough to turn comfortably, admire scenery, pretty much stick in that gear till elevenses, knock back some ham, bread, cheese and water, resume same gear, admire scenery, have lunch and then whizz downhill for an couple of hours. If people want a bit more excitement then they can divert to places like Anso, Biescas, Torla, Panticosa, Vielha or even Envalira and meet up with the rest of us in the afternoon.

My big worry is entirely different, and that is that the recce will reveal that the old N-260 has been sliced and diced so much by 'improvements' that we can't avoid the new highway. The maps, both electronic and paper, are out of date (it happens here, too - the OS is two years behind the times on Ramsgate). The recceistes may spend a week cruising perfectly graded superhighways....


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## StuAff (5 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> which is to help each other along a bit, and be in good cheer if we were waiting for the tail of the ride.


Indeed. I'm a hell of a lot stronger a rider now than I was when I started getting back into riding six years ago. Decent bikes help. Lots of miles help (a lot more). But the biggest help of all is lovely peeps offering support and encouragement. I'm not going to forget that, and nor should I.


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## ianmac62 (6 Jul 2013)

ianmac62 said:


> It gets even better: Spanish mountains with German roads!


What we really want, then, is Spanish mountains with Spanish roads!


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## ComedyPilot (6 Jul 2013)

Would love to join you all, but I snore.


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## dellzeqq (6 Jul 2013)

this is a close as I can get to a link for the first day, and you'll see that it's the most problematic. 80 miles, and, while there's no big hills, there's a deal of messing around brought on by road improvements. The last stretch on the NA-2400 looks really good, though
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?sadd...-IZX01Kzm63u2zLxs_lVwA&cbp=12,156.17,,0,12.31


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## Flying Dodo (6 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> this is a close as I can get to a link for the first day, and you'll see that it's the most problematic. 80 miles, and, while there's no big hills, there's a deal of messing around brought on by road improvements. The last stretch on the NA-2400 looks really good, though


 
Mmmmm - very nice. Fantastic views on Streetview from Artáiz. However, I'm a bit concerned further north, on the sections where they don't seem to have built any of the new road, such as the run-in towards Pamplona. Won't those bits have a lot of traffic?


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## dellzeqq (6 Jul 2013)

where we are thrown on to the main road it might well be busy - although my experience is that Sunday still means Sunday in Spain. In 2012 we were on the road to Gerona on a Sunday, and saw barely a car . Bear in mind that for four fifths of the ride toward Pamplona we'll be on the equivalent of the 'old A9' (the Google Maps thing can't quite handle all of the diversions). That, then is my plan - the day out of Irun is probably the most daunting that we'll see, but we'll be past Pamplona by the time the world and his wife have got up.


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## redfalo (6 Jul 2013)

2535758 said:


> That is not necessarily a terminal problem, unless you were to share with Bob.


I'm still alive, though.


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## dellzeqq (8 Jul 2013)

I'm having a polite little tussle with the spanish tourist office, trying to find out if the definition of highway includes autovia. Either way the advice given below comes straight out of some bureaucrat's arse.

What should you know if you are planning to bike in Spain?

Many cities in Spain have special lanes for biking. Also, hourly bicycles rental services are becoming increasingly common along with the possibility of leaving them in highly regulated parking spaces.
If you plan on getting around by bike, you should know the following:
It is *prohibited to ride on highways*.
*Circulation on roadways *is only allowed *for people over 14 years of age* and you must always ride on the shoulder.
*Helmet use* is mandatory on intercity *highways*.
The *circulation of cyclists is permitted in parallel form*, in columns of two, but cyclists should always ride as far right as possible along the road. 
The use of *approved lighting* on the bike when riding at night, in tunnels or in sections affected by the tunnel signal, is mandatory. Also, on intercity *highways*, cyclists must wear some reflective clothing that permits distinguishing them from a distance of 150 metres.


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## StuAff (8 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm having a polite little tussle with the spanish tourist office, trying to find out if the definition of highway includes autovia. Either way the advice given below comes straight out of some bureaucrat's arse.
> 
> What should you know if you are planning to bike in Spain?
> 
> ...


A few forumistes live over there- drop them a line.


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## clivedb (8 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> I'm having a polite little tussle with the spanish tourist office, trying to find out if the definition of highway includes autovia. Either way the advice given below comes straight out of some bureaucrat's arse.


 
Simon
There's an article from March this year on the Road CC site that suggests that there has been some chaos about proposed changes to the rules for cyclists. I like this sentence:
Currently, under a law implemented in 2004 but reportedly seldom enforced, cyclists in Spain have to wear helmets while riding in non-urban areas unless the weather is too hot or they are going uphill.​I don't know if Road CC is a reliable source but there might be a useful contact there. The article is here:
http://road.cc/content/news/77554-s...ulsory-amid-law-reform-designed-push-cyclists


Conbici has a site:
http://www.conbici.org/joomla/index...ther-anti-cycling-measures&catid=18&Itemid=58
Clive


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## dellzeqq (8 Jul 2013)

Clive - sorry, but it's just the question about Autovias that exercises me. We have a few small stretches on day one, where there is no alternative. Susie and I did ride up the N11 from Gerona to Figueres, and we didn't get stopped, so, even if it is illegal I doubt that there's any enforcement (our nine pound Decathlon helmets were looped over the handlebars and dumped at the first town over the French border).

I think I know the answer - that you're not allowed to ride on the Autopistas but you are allowed to ride on the Autovias - and that both have been translated as 'highway' by the Spanish Tourist Office.


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## clivedb (8 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> Clive - sorry, but it's just the question about Autovias that exercises me. W


Hi, Simon - I realised that your question was quite specific and not about helmets at all, but it occurred to me that an organisation like Conbici might be a useful source of any further required info, while the Road CC article suggested a certain level of chaos around the rules which seemed consistent with the advice you were getting.
I love the idea that you don't have to wear a helmet if you're going uphill out of town - presumably you have to put it back on when you start going downhill.


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## dellzeqq (9 Jul 2013)

only if you're going downhill in town on a cool day. And we aren't going to any towns of any size anyway, it's all good.

I've sent an e-mail to Conbici


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## wanda2010 (9 Jul 2013)

What's the Spanish equivalent of cidre?


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## dellzeqq (9 Jul 2013)

I have a response from Conbici, and it is pretty much as I supposed - although the rule may be changed at specific points by road signs. Google Maps is well out of date on the N-121-A so I guess it's down to the recce.

The Tourist Office are hopeless. I'm currently making their life miserable in the hope that they will raise their game.


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## StuartG (9 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> The Tourist Office are hopeless. I'm currently making their life miserable in the hope that they will raise their game.


Or maybe you threaten a wee coup d'etat ... perhaps bicycle pumps might be more effective this time around ...


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## dellzeqq (9 Jul 2013)

Spain's finest hour - a million people came out on the the streets of Madrid to support democracy


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## frank9755 (15 Jul 2013)

Just seen this. I'm definitely keen as long as the dates work. I've not read through the entire thread but get the idea that it is likely to be June.


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## dellzeqq (15 Jul 2013)

ah - good point. Some people have suggested late May


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## dellzeqq (17 Jul 2013)

we might whiz straight through Urroz-Villa....(I cannot guess the motivations of the person who posted this video. 'Urroz-Villa - a tragic place where the cars are all parked')

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa1iGF_yNkM


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## Flying Dodo (17 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> we might whiz straight through Urroz-Villa....(I cannot guess the motivations of the person who posted this video. 'Urroz-Villa - a tragic place where the cars are all parked')
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa1iGF_yNkM




How bizarre. Although judging by the position of the sun, it must have been siesta time!


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## redfalo (17 Jul 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> we might whiz straight through Urroz-Villa....(I cannot guess the motivations of the person who posted this video. 'Urroz-Villa - a tragic place where the cars are all parked')
> 
> View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa1iGF_yNkM



Oh, that place must have been the world famous neutron bomb test site.


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## dellzeqq (25 Jul 2013)

an update. Taking the coach on the days I proposed will cost ten thousand pounds. That's two hundred and fifty pounds each. I've asked Mick to look at May which could be considerably cheaper.


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## PaulRide (29 Jul 2013)

May could be good - however, I'm kind of hoping that the last week of May, being half term for most, would be too expensive, as I doubt if I could make it that week. Earlier in May, on the other hand, would be ace. Looking forward to further news from Church Stretton.


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## JohnTCC (29 Jul 2013)

Right.... I have just read 13 pages.. and am none the wiser... where is it to and when???

Now I have retired I have my cap in my hand ready to through it in.. it should all be good training for the following years PBP


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## StuartG (30 Jul 2013)

JohnTCC said:


> ... PBP


Now there's an idea for an alternative tour over, perhaps, an extra few days. Versailles substituting for Paris?


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## LouiseL (31 Jul 2013)

I can only manage time off work in school holidays now so a May half term trip would be fabulous!


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## dellzeqq (31 Jul 2013)

LouiseL said:


> I can only manage time off work in school holidays now so a May half term trip would be fabulous!


 
when is May half term?


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## hatler (31 Jul 2013)

Typically the week including the Whit weekend holiday, the last Monday in May.


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## ianmac62 (31 Jul 2013)

LouiseL said:


> I can only manage time off work in school holidays now so a May half term trip would be fabulous!


After 40 years of enjoying school-teaching, I'm sorry to report that coach prices and cross-channel ferry prices will be as high that week as in the summer hols.


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## LouiseL (31 Jul 2013)

Yes, unfortunately school holiday periods are always expensive! Half term is Mon 26th to Fri 30th May 2014. You should be able to tell from the price hike for that week!


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## dellzeqq (14 Aug 2013)

for reasons that are too personal to go in to here I'm not in a position or in the frame of mind to plan a tour for next year. Things may be different in a few months time.

If anybody feels like taking it on, feel free to get in touch.


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## ianmac62 (14 Aug 2013)

dellzeqq said:


> for reasons that are too personal to go in to here I'm not in a position or in the frame of mind to plan a tour for next year. Things may be different in a few months time.
> 
> If anybody feels like taking it on, feel free to get in touch.



Very sorry to hear that, DZ! Whatever it is, I hope it gets sorted ASAP. Best wishes.


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