# 3 Cycling shops refuse to work on disc brakes of electric bike due to motor size???



## night cycler (21 Mar 2022)

A bloke I see quite regular on the same cycling route explained the issue today. 

He has an electric bike that needs the disc pads changing or adjusting, as the brakes are not too good. He has contacted 3 cycle shops and been told that they are not allowed to work on his bike because it has a 350 watt motor. They explained that the cycle is classed as a moped, and they cannot legally work on it.

This seems odd to me. Surely, if a person is *competent in this sort of thing*, that is all that matters. What do others think?


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## presta (21 Mar 2022)

Perhaps it's their insurance that decide what they can and can't work on.


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## Ian H (21 Mar 2022)

Is the bike legally registered, with a number plate? Does the rider have a licence?


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## vickster (21 Mar 2022)

If it’s not a road legal bicycle, he should take it to a motorbike mechanic..and get some bloody insurance, VED and licence


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## classic33 (21 Mar 2022)

If the brakes failed to stop the bike under power, who would he hold responsible?


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## SydZ (21 Mar 2022)

Nice to see bike shops behaving in this way.


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## night cycler (21 Mar 2022)

I will convey the responses, thank you .


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## Cycleops (22 Mar 2022)

Hardly surprising the brakes are ‘not too good’ with 350 w motor If it’s been deregulated or modified.
Would invalidate their liability insurance.


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## fossyant (22 Mar 2022)

SydZ said:


> Nice to see bike shops behaving in this way.



If it's an illegal bike, it's probably a dodgy import with crap brakes anyway. I'd refuse to work on it.

PS OP, what bike is it ? Make and model.


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## fossyant (22 Mar 2022)

night cycler said:


> I will convey the responses, thank you .



Model and make, then we can probably say why they've refused.


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## rogerzilla (22 Mar 2022)

In the scheme of things, 350W isn't as bonkers as some of the things the hooligans are riding around here, but it's still illegal so I'm glad they told him to take a hike.

These overpowered e-bikes are lethal to others on cyclepaths (and footpaths, and green spaces, and everywhere else they're ridden).


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## Chislenko (22 Mar 2022)

Seems like another reason to stick with rim brakes 😊


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## Cycleops (22 Mar 2022)

Rim brakes in 350w ebike. I don't think so unless you have a death wish.


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## fossyant (22 Mar 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Rim brakes in 350w ebike. I don't think so unless you have a death wish.



Dunno, my road bikes can outrun a 350w ebike down hill and handle much better round corners, on old fashioned rim brakes.


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## Cycleops (22 Mar 2022)

Any flashing images of @classic33 's avatar as you race down the hill


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## figbat (22 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Dunno, my road bikes can outrun a 350w ebike down hill and handle much better round corners, on old fashioned rim brakes.


How does your combined weight compare to an e-bike + rider though? Where brakes are concerned it is more about momentum than power.


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## fossyant (22 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> How does your combined weight compare to an e-bike + rider though? Where brakes are concerned it is more about momentum than power.



This is a dodgy e-bike though ! Probably some cheapo no-name brakes.


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## T4tomo (22 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> Where brakes are concerned it is more about momentum than power.


...and about good brakes vs bad, not specifically disc vs rim. A good quality well adjusted rim brake will out-brake a cheap cable disc brake.

also lets not forget the extra weight of a an ebike battery and motor is well within the range of typical rider weights. Granted you are more likely to have a fatty on an ebike....


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## vickster (22 Mar 2022)

T4tomo said:


> ...and about good brakes vs bad, not specifically disc vs rim. A good quality well adjusted rim brake will out-brake a cheap cable disc brake.
> 
> also lets not forget the extra weight of a an ebike battery and motor is well within the range of typical rider weights. Granted you are more likely to have a fatty on an ebike....


Round here it’s mostly young skinny males on illegal e-bikes, quite often doing food delivery. 
Not fatties at all


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## matticus (22 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Round here it’s mostly *young skinny *males on illegal e-bikes, quite often doing food delivery.
> Not fatties at all


Their time will come ...


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## TheDoctor (22 Mar 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Rim brakes in 350w ebike. I don't think so unless you have a death wish.


I've had 110+ kg of bike + self slowed from 50 mph on numerous occasions. Never a problem with rim brakes, be they Sora or whatever Brompton use.


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Mar 2022)

fossyant said:


> Dunno, my road bikes can outrun a 350w ebike down hill and handle much better round corners, on old fashioned rim brakes.



What 350w make and model of ebike did you outrun and how steep a hill?


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## matticus (22 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What 350w make and model of ebike did you outrun and how steep a hill?


... and did he have a dropper post??


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## fossyant (22 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> What 350w make and model of ebike did you outrun and how steep a hill?



I doubt any could do 40-50mph safely or 60mph, unless it was another road bike.


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## rivers (22 Mar 2022)

T4tomo said:


> ...and about good brakes vs bad, not specifically disc vs rim. A good quality well adjusted rim brake will out-brake a cheap cable disc brake.
> 
> also lets not forget the extra weight of a an ebike battery and motor is well within the range of typical rider weights. Granted you are more likely to have a fatty on an ebike....


My wife rides an e-bike. She is an ex-professional dancer (and still looks the part) who has moved over to teaching fitness (pilates, zumba, and bar fusion). An e-bike allows her to ride with me (although at her pace) without putting additional strain on her already battered body.


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## rogerzilla (22 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> Round here it’s mostly young skinny males on illegal e-bikes, quite often doing food delivery.
> Not fatties at all


It's not food they're delivering around here! 🌴


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## vickster (22 Mar 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It's not food they're delivering around here! 🌴


I wouldn't know 
Although it seemed to be National Weed Day round here yesterday as almost everyone I passed or car which passed me while cycling yesterday ponged of dope!

They have all the Deliveroo gubbins round here


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## Richard A Thackeray (22 Mar 2022)

We've got a chump at work, with a modified ebike
He brags that it will reach 50MPH

The way he rides it, implies that he'll either end up in a box, or a prison cell

Several of us, have told him in polite, but very firm, terms that if he knocks someone over/runs into a vehicle/etc...... we *will* offer statements to the Police that we have constantly advised him that it's not road-legal, & that his manner of riding is crazy, and that the Police should have it examined, with regard to power-output/gearing
I'm not even sure if it has functioning brakes, I'm given to understand from someone else that he relies on the motor for any braking
(hub motor)

We cite the example of the track-bike rider in London; https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41028321
(he was jailed for 18 months)

And, these;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-56320121
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/8197430.stm

Although, as usual, it always enters one ear, & immediately escapes via the other with him


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## Oldhippy (22 Mar 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It's not food they're delivering around here! 🌴


Palm trees?


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## SydZ (22 Mar 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> The way he rides it, implies that he'll either end up in a box, or a prison cell


Here's hoping its a box and no one else gets injured in the process.


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## marzjennings (22 Mar 2022)

Cycleops said:


> Rim brakes in 350w ebike. I don't think so unless you have a death wish.


Rim brakes work fine for my non-ebike and +120kg rider and bike combined mass when riding at 25mph or about 350w.


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## rogerzilla (22 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> Palm trees?


It was the closest I could find to the pungent herb that permeates the whole town. Although the couriers are possibly delivering harder stuff. It could be the new town motto: "Swindon: makes you want to smoke crack".


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## Oldhippy (22 Mar 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> It was the closest I could find to the pungent herb that permeates the whole town. Although the couriers are possibly delivering harder stuff. It could be the new town motto: "Swindon: makes you want to smoke crack".


Sorry couldn't resist.


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## T4tomo (22 Mar 2022)

rivers said:


> My wife rides an e-bike. She is an ex-professional dancer (and still looks the part) who has moved over to teaching fitness (pilates, zumba, and bar fusion). An e-bike allows her to ride with me (although at her pace) without putting additional strain on her already battered body.


To clarify, I just said fatties are more likely to be on an ebike and added a . There are of course many svelte and lovely people on ebikes and on regular bikes to which no offense was meant. It was a flippant comment after making the point that an ebike doesnt need any special brakes over a normal bikes


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## bonzobanana (22 Mar 2022)

night cycler said:


> A bloke I see quite regular on the same cycling route explained the issue today.
> 
> He has an electric bike that needs the disc pads changing or adjusting, as the brakes are not too good. He has contacted 3 cycle shops and been told that they are not allowed to work on his bike because it has a 350 watt motor. They explained that the cycle is classed as a moped, and they cannot legally work on it.
> 
> This seems odd to me. Surely, if a person is *competent in this sort of thing*, that is all that matters. What do others think?


I think the only ebike motors that are actually 250W or less as maximum power is the very cheap 20" ebikes which probably have a nominal power of only about 180W for their motor or less. Most ebikes on the British market have motors capable of 350W or more and are restricted to 250W by the controllers and can often be unrestricted to their full power. This 250W motor legal situation is a bit of a farce as its the controller that restricts the motor. In fact mid-drive motors like the Bosch units have the highest peak power of over 700W but are legally sold. The same ebikes are sold as 350W or more in other markets without the software power restriction. 

I agree with the cycle shops not working on such bikes but if the bikes are configured as legal ebikes with a 15.5mph maximum powered speed what is the difference to the complete ebikes they sell and would they not work on the brakes on ebikes they sell that have been de-restricted.

if you have a ebike with a direct drive motor hub with regen braking often you don't even use the normal brakes unless in emergency braking situations. The regen braking is sufficient for most situations and just slowing for junctions etc and they work in all weather conditions so its important not to class all ebikes the same as some types of ebikes have enhanced no maintenance braking that not only eliminate wear on your brake pads but give a slight recharge to the battery at the same time.


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## matticus (22 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> I agree with the cycle shops not working on such bikes but if the bikes are configured as legal ebikes with a 15.5mph maximum powered speed what is the difference to the complete ebikes they sell and* would they not work on the brakes on ebikes they sell that have been de-restricted*.


Perhaps they don't sell de-restricted bikes?


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## Ridgeway (22 Mar 2022)

Don’t all Bosch CX Performance motors reach 350w in eMTB mode anyway ?


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Mar 2022)

Oldhippy said:


> Palm trees?



If that’s what you smoke. Popular at Easter I hear.


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## Ridgeway (22 Mar 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> If that’s what you smoke. Popular at Easter I hear.



Think that’s Psalm tress


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## Ajax Bay (22 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> How does your combined weight compare to an e-bike + rider though? Where brakes are concerned it is more about momentum than power.


Where brakes are concerned it's not about momentum (m * v): it's about kinetic energy (1/2 m * v^2). So combined mass matters more but speed matters ^2. Please say if I have that wrong.


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## Tenkaykev (22 Mar 2022)

vickster said:


> I wouldn't know
> Although it seemed to be National Weed Day round here yesterday as almost everyone I passed or car which passed me while cycling yesterday ponged of dope!
> 
> They have all the Deliveroo gubbins round here


I did wonder about this. I’m familiar with the smell of “ Moroccan Woodbines” but on a few occasions recently I’ve been ambling along a trailway and caught a whiff of what smelled like cannabis. Is there a non narcotic plant / herb with a similar smell?


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## Mr Celine (22 Mar 2022)

figbat said:


> How does your combined weight compare to an e-bike + rider though? Where brakes are concerned it is more about momentum than power.


It's more about kinetic energy than momentum.
1/2 mv squared, not mv


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## Mr Celine (22 Mar 2022)

TNM to @Ajax Bay


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## vickster (22 Mar 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> I did wonder about this. I’m familiar with the smell of “ Moroccan Woodbines” but on a few occasions recently I’ve been ambling along a trailway and caught a whiff of what smelled like cannabis. Is there a non narcotic plant / herb with a similar smell?


No just everyone smokes cannabis outside now!


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## bonzobanana (22 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> Perhaps they don't sell de-restricted bikes?


People de-restrict them themselves often its just a accessing secret menu's using special key combinations others might need a usb dongle to get in and de-restrict the bike. My point is would they check for the legality of such bikes before fixing their brakes?


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## slowmotion (22 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> The regen braking is sufficient for most situations and just slowing for junctions etc


As far as I'm aware, slowing down for junctions is something of a novel concept for ebike riders.


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## KnittyNorah (23 Mar 2022)

night cycler said:


> Surely, if a person is *competent in this sort of thing*, that is all that matters. What do others think?


Surely it is the prerogative of any competent cycle service technician/engineer/mechanic to refuse work which they consider unethical or illegal. 
And I would think that any decent motorcycle garage would be more than willing to adjust the brakes and perform type testing for subsequent licencing, registration, insurance etc.


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## Sixmile (23 Mar 2022)

Free the hub! Surely if we legalize these motorised pedal cycles it would bring down the misuse, fill the tax kitty and make the users safer? Otherwise, these bikes will be pushed underground or worse, stored in roofspaces across the country!


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## Chislenko (23 Mar 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Surely it is the prerogative of any competent cycle service technician/engineer/mechanic to refuse work which they consider unethical or illegal.
> And I would think that any decent motorcycle garage would be more than willing to adjust the brakes and perform type testing for subsequent licencing, registration, insurance etc.



Takes me back to when I briefly worked at our Rolls Royce / Bentley dealership.

A chap came in complaining of "steering wobble" at 90mph and asked for a technician to take it out and test it.

The technician said no as obviously anything above 70 mph was against the law. Customer called technician some "names' and left in a huff.


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## cougie uk (23 Mar 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> I've had 110+ kg of bike + self slowed from 50 mph on numerous occasions. Never a problem with rim brakes, be they Sora or whatever Brompton use.


Woah - you're doing 50 on a Brompton ? Amazing speeds.


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## DRM (23 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Woah - you're doing 50 on a Brompton ? Amazing speeds.


Next stop, Brompton world championships!


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## Ming the Merciless (23 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Woah - you're doing 50 on a Brompton ? Amazing speeds.



and it was uphill


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## Tight Git (23 Mar 2022)

Chislenko said:


> Takes me back to when I briefly worked at our Rolls Royce / Bentley dealership.
> 
> A chap came in complaining of "steering wobble" at 90mph and asked for a technician to take it out and test it.
> 
> The technician said no as obviously anything above 70 mph was against the law. Customer called technician some "names' and left in a huff.


Had the same answer in about 1989 with a new Golf GTI at a VW dealer. My reply was I was going to Germany next week and would be on unrestricted autobahns and they weren't prepared to investigate a potentially dangerous issue!? 

With very bad grace they did check it out. Terrible attitude and customer service and probably more snooty than your RR dealership!


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## TheDoctor (23 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Woah - you're doing 50 on a Brompton ? Amazing speeds.


Down bloody great hills. Col de Mort d'Imbert and Ventoux, when I went touring in Provence.


DRM said:


> Next stop, Brompton world championships!


Pffft! Not a chance. I time-trial with all the grace and speed of a beached walrus.


Ming the Merciless said:


> and it was uphill


The only time my bike has done that speed uphill, it was in a car. Or possibly a bus.
Although I have nascent plans for the Col de Mont Cenis that involve a chairlift to do the tedious uphill bit.
The way I see it, I've ridden up Ventoux twice. I've proved I can climb, I just don't want to.
But lo! we have wandered far off topic...


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## matticus (24 Mar 2022)

Tight Git said:


> Had the same answer in about 1989 with a new Golf GTI at a VW dealer. My reply was I was going to Germany next week and would be on unrestricted autobahns and they weren't prepared to investigate a potentially dangerous issue!?
> 
> With very bad grace they did check it out. Terrible attitude and customer service and probably more snooty than your RR dealership!


But did you ask the guy to road-test the 90mph problem? (As Chislenko's customer did).


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## Chislenko (24 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> But did you ask the guy to road-test the 90mph problem? (As Chislenko's customer did).



Yes, that is the point, why should the technician risk a fine, ban, invalidating the company insurance to fix someone's car?


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## matticus (24 Mar 2022)

TheDoctor said:


> Down bloody great hills. Col de Mort d'Imbert and Ventoux, when I went touring in Provence.


Are they generally good on fast descents? I would hate to lose out on one of cycling's great joys!


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## bonzobanana (24 Mar 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Surely it is the prerogative of any competent cycle service technician/engineer/mechanic to refuse work which they consider unethical or illegal.
> And I would think that any decent motorcycle garage would be more than willing to adjust the brakes and perform type testing for subsequent licencing, registration, insurance etc.


How do they determine it though. You get complete legal ebikes based around direct drive motors that are no different really to the kits. The kits have a legal mode where the motor only operates while you pedal and its restricted to 15.5mph in fact typically pre-built mid-drive motor ebikes exploit the law more with far higher peak output. Bosch motors have been shown to peak over 700W which gives them great climbing ability but the law states 250W nominal or rated power. In fact the original UK law was 200W but we accepted the EU 250W limit but I'm not sure we have our own legislation for that. A direct drive motor as a legal ebike is probably peaking closer to 400W. Unless they ride the bike how do they determine the legality and that applies to both mid-drive pre-built ebikes and ebikes based on kits or pre-built ebikes using geared hubs or direct drive hubs. A kit does not necessarily have to be more illegal than a pre-built ebike and in fact could actually be closer to the legislation not further away. 

Reasons why they refuse could be making false assumptions about an ebike, they could want to deter people buying kits for their commercial interests or they may simply not have the technical skills to fully understand such ebikes and are not comfortable dealing with them. I've spoken to sales people in shops who only sell high end ebikes and they will often tell you absolute nonsense about their ebikes in order to promote their products. I mean with a £6k ebike I assume there is a lot of sales commission if they make a sale which leads to a lot of manipulation in the sales patter. No sales person wants to miss out on commission so all the positives about their bikes are huge positives and all the negatives are tiny issues of little importance that probably won't effect you etc. To be honest if I was in that situation where selling ebikes adds hugely to my income I would not be the most honest or fair person. I used to be a hifi salesperson at first I tried to match people to products I think best suited them but it wasn't long before I was shown the errors of my ways and tried to upsell to everyone unless I met any resistance and then would sell them products at prices they were happy to pay. Products we didn't sell of course were awful and we would view them negatively and not want to deal with them or repair them even if at home I had such products which were better than the products we sold.







https://hawkwheels.co.uk/products/copy-of-elysium-relay-17-250w-16ah-battery


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## TheDoctor (24 Mar 2022)

matticus said:


> Are they generally good on fast descents? I would hate to lose out on one of cycling's great joys!


I think so. You do have to be used to the handling, but they are quite sure footed.


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## Donger (24 Mar 2022)

I like to think that most respectable bike mechanics would refuse to work on the brakes on my nephew's home-made jet bike too. OK, it's an extreme example, but just a question of degree.


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## classic33 (24 Mar 2022)

Donger said:


> I like to think that most respectable bike mechanics would refuse to work on the brakes on my nephew's home-made jet bike too. OK, it's an extreme example, but just a question of degree.
> View attachment 636721


What's he charge for the conversion kit?


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## vickster (24 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> View attachment 636695
> 
> 
> https://hawkwheels.co.uk/products/copy-of-elysium-relay-17-250w-16ah-battery


It clearly wasn't one of those as it hasn't got disc brakes


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## KnittyNorah (24 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> How do they determine it though.


As far as ethics go, by their own standards. As far as the law goes, they can take advice from whichever legal authority they or their employer defer to. In any case, just because someone has set up a business as a cycle mechanic, does not mean they must offer their services to anyone who turns up asking for them, They are perfectly at liberty to refuse those services to anyone as long as it is not on the grounds of any protected characteristic. eg 'I won't service your bike because you're a woman/black/disabled/gay' is NOT ok - whereas 'I won't service your bike because I think you stole it/won't pay me/I'm too busy/it's an illegal bike/I don't like working on green bikes with pannier racks' is perfectly OK.

And Just because something might be arguably legal - or, indeed, completely accepted in law - does not mean that fact overrides a persons personal ethics or beliefs and compels them to service the bike anyway!


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## Donger (24 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> What's he charge for the conversion kit?


He's moved on from the jet bike now. Until recently he was working on an amphibious bike, but then he got hold of a hovercraft that was just asking to be restored! It really wouldn't surprise me if, one day, he makes his own submarine.


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## classic33 (24 Mar 2022)

Donger said:


> He's moved on from the jet bike now. Until recently he was working on an amphibious bike, but then he got hold of a hovercraft that was just asking to be restored! It really wouldn't surprise me if, one day, he makes his own submarine.


Where's he storing the bike he no longer uses?
Just wondering


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## nickyboy (24 Mar 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> Where brakes are concerned it's not about momentum (m * v): it's about kinetic energy (1/2 m * v^2). So combined mass matters more but speed matters ^2. Please say if I have that wrong.


Correct, in reducing the velocity of a bike from X to zero, you have to convert the kinetic energy present at velocity X into something (heat basically). As you rightly point out, KE is a function of the square of the velocity and just the mass, so when scrubbing off KE in the form of heat the velocity you're trying to get to zero from probably matters more than the mass


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## Ajax Bay (24 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> probably matters more


Aint no "probably" about it, Nicky! Science; init?


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## Tenkaykev (24 Mar 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> Aint no "probably" about it, Nicky! Science; init?


All energy is heat ( until the heat death of the universe)


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## bonzobanana (24 Mar 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> As far as ethics go, by their own standards. As far as the law goes, they can take advice from whichever legal authority they or their employer defer to. In any case, just because someone has set up a business as a cycle mechanic, does not mean they must offer their services to anyone who turns up asking for them, They are perfectly at liberty to refuse those services to anyone as long as it is not on the grounds of any protected characteristic. eg 'I won't service your bike because you're a woman/black/disabled/gay' is NOT ok - whereas 'I won't service your bike because I think you stole it/won't pay me/I'm too busy/it's an illegal bike/I don't like working on green bikes with pannier racks' is perfectly OK.
> 
> And Just because something might be arguably legal - or, indeed, completely accepted in law - does not mean that fact overrides a persons personal ethics or beliefs and compels them to service the bike anyway!


I certainly wasn't arguing that they should fix the bike which is what I already have written in a previous comment just questioning their so called legality argument which is a bit flawed. They certainly wouldn't just say 'We aren't going to fix your ebike because you've bought a cheap ebike rather than buying an expensive ebike from us' even if that is the real reason or 'we are utterly clueless on working on the electrics of ebikes like that and wouldn't know what we were doing'.


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## KnittyNorah (24 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> just questioning their so called legality argument which is a bit flawed.


Well, you wouldn't expect an authoritative statement on bike tyre tread depth in a passing conversation with a lawyer any more than expect an authoritative statement on the debatable legality of a bicycle's particular features from a bike mechanic. I'm not surprised 'its a bit flawed' when the legality of _entire classes_ of electrically-powered vehicles is - as far as I understand it - not merely flawed but in a vacuum. 

I expect their legality argument was merely the most reasonable and diplomatic excuse the shops could think of, at short notice, to avoid work which they - for whatever reason - didn't want to do. 

We don't know the background behind the story; perhaps there has been a local spate of near-misses by irresponsible over-powered e-bikers; perhaps something more serious happened to someone in the local bike mechanic community; the fact that _three_ different shops in (presumably) a fairly local area refused to deal with the issue pushes me towards thinking that there's more to this than meets the eye. Although this e-biker may well be - probably is! - a perfectly delightful person who always rides in a considerate and responsible manner. there must be _something_ fairly significant which prompted three different businesses to give the same reason for refusal to take on paying work ...


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## bonzobanana (25 Mar 2022)

KnittyNorah said:


> Well, you wouldn't expect an authoritative statement on bike tyre tread depth in a passing conversation with a lawyer any more than expect an authoritative statement on the debatable legality of a bicycle's particular features from a bike mechanic. I'm not surprised 'its a bit flawed' when the legality of _entire classes_ of electrically-powered vehicles is - as far as I understand it - not merely flawed but in a vacuum.
> 
> I expect their legality argument was merely the most reasonable and diplomatic excuse the shops could think of, at short notice, to avoid work which they - for whatever reason - didn't want to do.
> 
> We don't know the background behind the story; perhaps there has been a local spate of near-misses by irresponsible over-powered e-bikers; perhaps something more serious happened to someone in the local bike mechanic community; the fact that _three_ different shops in (presumably) a fairly local area refused to deal with the issue pushes me towards thinking that there's more to this than meets the eye. Although this e-biker may well be - probably is! - a perfectly delightful person who always rides in a considerate and responsible manner. there must be _something_ fairly significant which prompted three different businesses to give the same reason for refusal to take on paying work ...



In fairness thinking about it I've read many forum comments where shops have refused doing ebike work. I think most have been because they simply don't have expertise on that particular motor system, it could be a shop that focuses on Shimano ebike motors and doesn't have the service manuals and other tools for Bosch or Brose etc. When you look at even a basic ebike kit ebike you can see the additional brake sensor wires from the brake levers and it maybe the the lever is configured to first engage regen braking before then engaging the physical wired brake the further you pull it. Then you have maybe a throttle control next to it and other controls. I keep reading comments from people who believe throttles aren't legal on ebikes but that is only true of twist and go ebikes not those that just use them to control power as they pedal. Most mid-drive motor ebikes don't have throttles so its likely most such shops that sell those will try to give false negative information about throttles as that is my experience on how such shops behave some of the time.


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## KnittyNorah (25 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> In fairness thinking about it I've read many forum comments where shops have refused doing ebike work. I think most have been because they simply don't have expertise on that particular motor system, it could be a shop that focuses on Shimano ebike motors and doesn't have the service manuals and other tools for Bosch or Brose etc. When you look at even a basic ebike kit ebike you can see the additional brake sensor wires from the brake levers and it maybe the the lever is configured to first engage regen braking before then engaging the physical wired brake the further you pull it. Then you have maybe a throttle control next to it and other controls. I keep reading comments from people who believe throttles aren't legal on ebikes but that is only true of twist and go ebikes not those that just use them to control power as they pedal. Most mid-drive motor ebikes don't have throttles so its likely most such shops that sell those will try to give false negative information about throttles as that is my experience on how such shops behave some of the time.



We don't even know that the shops which refused were shops which claim to dealing with/service e-bikes - all the original post says is 'cycling shops'. 

It's also perfectly plausible that a bike mechanic or business might have had recent correspondence with his or her insurance company reminding them that certain e-bikes are indeed legally classified as mopeds/motorbikes and thus any insurance held for work done would be invalid on such a bike. Even if dealing with the brakes would involve minimal interference with electronics, I think it would be reasonable if a mechanic therefore wanted to err on the side of caution - especially if they're not in urgent need of work. 

There's definitely a lot more going on 'behind the scenes' here than we are aware of!


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## rogerzilla (25 Mar 2022)

A jet bike is terribly inefficient unless you're doing many hundreds of miles per hour. Better to make a "pusher" turboprop. It'll stop close passes, too.


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## classic33 (25 Mar 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> A jet bike is terribly inefficient unless you're doing many hundreds of miles per hour. Better to make a "pusher" turboprop. It'll stop close passes, too.


You mean like...


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## rogerzilla (25 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> You mean like...
> View attachment 636930


That's the badger!


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## glasgowcyclist (25 Mar 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> A jet bike is terribly inefficient unless you're doing many hundreds of miles per hour. Better to make a "pusher" turboprop. It'll stop close passes, too.



View: https://twitter.com/NickyTay55/status/1390955665083019269?s=20


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## cougie uk (25 Mar 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> All energy is heat ( until the heat death of the universe)


Keep it light lads...


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## Ming the Merciless (25 Mar 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Keep it light lads...



You have to plan for the long term


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## nickyboy (25 Mar 2022)

Ajax Bay said:


> Aint no "probably" about it, Nicky! Science; init?


#nerd on# at low velocities the "squaring" effect is small so mass is a bigger issue #nerd off#


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## matticus (25 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> #nerd on# at low velocities the "squaring" effect is small so mass is a bigger issue #nerd off#


Conversely, if you're looking at downhill situations - which are quite a big part of cycling life - heavier riders/rigs tend to reach higher speeds. So in that case mass becomes important again!

(Assuming you are in the atmosphere. Obvs.)


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## Scaleyback (25 Mar 2022)

It's not just tearaways on 'clocked' illegal ebikes is it. There is a little elderly lady in my village (60+ I think) who scoots about at fair old speeds and she is never pedalling when I see her ?


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## Ajax Bay (25 Mar 2022)

nickyboy said:


> #nerd on# at low velocities the "squaring" effect is small so mass is a bigger issue #nerd off#


'Fraid your self-assertion of 'nerd' status is not warranted. The braking effect (power: kgm^2s^-2) is (think you agree) proportional to total mass and proportional to the square of speed. So mass is not the "bigger issue", even taking into account @matticus 's 'heavy blokes+bikes have a higher terminal velocity' argument.


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## C R (25 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> It's not just tearaways on 'clocked' illegal ebikes is it. There is a little elderly lady in my village (60+ I think) who scoots about at fair old speeds and she is never peddling when I see her ?


Maybe she doesn't like selling things. (ducks)


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## Donger (25 Mar 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> A jet bike is terribly inefficient unless you're doing many hundreds of miles per hour. Better to make a "pusher" turboprop. It'll stop close passes, too.


Either way, you won't find me wheelsucking.


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## classic33 (25 Mar 2022)

Donger said:


> Either way, you won't find me wheelsucking.


Don't want to get your fingers burnt?

They, jet engines, should stop cars getting too close behind you though.


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## wheresthetorch (26 Mar 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> on a few occasions recently I’ve been ambling along a trailway and caught a whiff of what smelled like cannabis. Is there a non narcotic plant / herb with a similar smell?



Fox wee.


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## bonzobanana (26 Mar 2022)

Scaleyback said:


> It's not just tearaways on 'clocked' illegal ebikes is it. There is a little elderly lady in my village (60+ I think) who scoots about at fair old speeds and she is never pedalling when I see her ?



There are legal twist and go ebikes they were sold up to about 2016 I think and you can still use them plus you have ebikes still sold that can be twist and go if they are individually tested at a cost of about £50 or something. There are legal twist and go ebikes on the road. If you converted a bike to ebike that was sold before 2016 and claimed you had to replace a few worn ebike parts if stopped by police how would they judge the legality of that? Personally I don't care if people are peddling or not I think the important part of the law is the 15.5mph assisted speed. If I was a policeman that is all I would focus on because that is the main safety concern and the rest of the ebike laws are complete mess to be honest and make little sense.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/wisper-announce-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-models/


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## classic33 (26 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> There are legal twist and go ebikes they were sold up to about 2016 I think and you can still use them plus you have ebikes still sold that can be twist and go if they are individually tested at a cost of about £50 or something. There are legal twist and go ebikes on the road. If you converted a bike to ebike that was sold before 2016 and claimed you had to replace a few worn ebike parts if stopped by police how would they judge the legality of that? Personally I don't care if people are peddling or not I think the important part of the law is the 15.5mph assisted speed. If I was a policeman that is all I would focus on because that is the main safety concern and the rest of the ebike laws are complete mess to be honest and make little sense.
> *
> https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/wisper-announce-dvsa-approved-full-throttle-models/*


They're only telling part of the story. You buy one of those bikes and wish to get a twist throttle on, they will put it through the £50 MVSA test for £199. Before you get your hands on it.

It passes, it gets classified as a moped. You then need the correct license, the moped requires insuring and registering and VED paying.

22kg isn't what I'd call a light bike, and that's before you put the battery on.


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## bonzobanana (26 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> They're only telling part of the story. You buy one of those bikes and wish to get a twist throttle on, they will put it through the £50 MVSA test for £199. Before you get your hands on it.
> 
> It passes, it gets classified as a moped. You then need the correct license, the moped requires insuring and registering and VED paying.
> 
> 22kg isn't what I'd call a light bike, and that's before you put the battery on.


I may have got this wrong but I don't think it is classed as a full moped somehow it has an exception to that and can be ridden as is. I don't fully understand how that is achieved but there doesn't appear to be any necessity to add number plates or insure it. Looking at the rules here it seems like they do comply when individually assessed but even though they say can be assessed at the manufacturing stage that doesn't seem to be happening. Later in the text it states if they don't comply with above they would have to be registered so the earlier text surely means they don't need to be registered. Anyway Wispa are not stating they need tax and insurance etc but they are not stating they don't either. The way I read it is they can be ridden normally legally without tax or insurance but I may have got that wrong.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet

There is a thread about it here, looks like it has some sort of exemption so the bike is registered but that is the only difference. You cannot take it to the EU or NI as it will not be legal there.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/full-throttle-ebike-legal-again.34419/


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## classic33 (26 Mar 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> I may have got this wrong but I don't think it is classed as a full moped somehow it has an exception to that and can be ridden as is. I don't fully understand how that is achieved but there doesn't appear to be any necessity to add number plates or insure it. Looking at the rules here it seems like they do comply when individually assessed but even though they say can be assessed at the manufacturing stage that doesn't seem to be happening. Later in the text it states if they don't comply with above they would have to be registered so the earlier text surely means they don't need to be registered. Anyway Wispa are not stating they need tax and insurance etc but they are not stating they don't either. The way I read it is they can be ridden normally legally without tax or insurance but I may have got that wrong.
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...cles-eapcs-in-great-britain-information-sheet
> 
> ...


As @David EBiker has posted elsewhere.


classic33 said:


> And, _"if you get a type approval, it essentially registers the vehicle as a motorbike subjecting it to *tax, registration and insurance requirements* but if you do a single vehicle approval, it allows you to continue as if it were a regular pedelec but makes using a full twist and go throttle (without pedalling) legal?"_


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## David EBiker (26 Mar 2022)

classic33 said:


> They're only telling part of the story. You buy one of those bikes and wish to get a twist throttle on, they will put it through the £50 MVSA test for £199. Before you get your hands on it.
> 
> It passes, it gets classified as a moped. You then need the correct license, the moped requires insuring and registering and VED paying.
> 
> 22kg isn't what I'd call a light bike, and that's before you put the battery on.


Hi Chaps please let me clear this up. The charge is £199.00 for us the get the bikes tested as an light electric moped, L1e. It only costs £55.00 to get the test done. However we book the test, pay the fees, take the bike off to the test centre and wait for the test to be completed (1 hour) and bring the bike back. We then change the settings, upgrade some of the wiring to take the extra stress and add the throttle to the 2year warranty. It’s pretty obvious to anyone that we make a loss on the service. We do it to make cycling in general and eBiking in particular more inclusive.

The bike once Type Approved cannot be used legally outside the UK unless the throttle is decommissioned, instructions given.

The bike is not a normal moped and does not need to be re MoTd. It’s still a bicycle and it’s use is governed by the laws appertaining to a bicycle with the one difference that riders must be aged 14 years or older.

All the best, David


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## classic33 (26 Mar 2022)

David EBiker said:


> Hi Chaps please let me clear this up. The charge is £199.00 for us the get the bikes tested as an light electric moped, L1e. It only costs £55.00 to get the test done. However we book the test, pay the fees, take the bike off to the test centre and wait for the test to be completed (1 hour) and bring the bike back. We then change the settings, upgrade some of the wiring to take the extra stress and add the throttle to the 2year warranty. It’s pretty obvious to anyone that we make a loss on the service. We do it to make cycling in general and eBiking in particular more inclusive.
> 
> The bike once Type Approved cannot be used legally outside the UK unless the throttle is decommissioned, instructions given.
> 
> ...


Does that mean the other piece posted, being reclassified as a light moped if type approval is gained, is wrong?

e-assist regulations require the rider to be over 14 anyway. Not specific to this class of moped.


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## Pat "5mph" (26 Mar 2022)

Mod Note:
As the conversation has moved on to some interesting points about Ebike regulations, I will move this thread to the Ebikes forum.


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## youngoldbloke (27 Mar 2022)

David EBiker said:


> Hi Chaps please let me clear this up. The charge is £199.00 for us the get the bikes tested as an light electric moped, L1e. It only costs £55.00 to get the test done. However we book the test, pay the fees, take the bike off to the test centre and wait for the test to be completed (1 hour) and bring the bike back. We then change the settings, upgrade some of the wiring to take the extra stress and add the throttle to the 2year warranty. It’s pretty obvious to anyone that we make a loss on the service. We do it to make cycling in general and eBiking in particular more inclusive.
> 
> The bike once Type Approved cannot be used legally outside the UK unless the throttle is decommissioned, instructions given.
> 
> ...


To clear this up once and for all, you state it doesn't need to be re MoTd, but does it need to be registered? Does it need number plates? Do you need a licence? Do you need to pay VED? Do you need to wear a motorcycle helmet?


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## figbat (27 Mar 2022)

All the information I can find on L1e-B ‘speed’ electric bikes claim they are treated as mopeds, meaning 16 years old minimum, plus all the licensing and registration requirements of a motor vehicle. I’ll admit that it isn‘t easy to get definitive information from a government source - I’m gleaning information from various e-bike support groups and legal firms’ websites. L1e-A bikes are pedelecs with the 14 year old minimum and no licensing requirements.


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