# Clean cyclists 1990-2010



## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

Being entirely underwhelmed by the Zabel news, I got to wondering which riders from that era who were reasonably successful would actually surprise me by confessing they doped. 

Chris Boardman is one. I have total confidence in him. 

Brad McGee.

Carlos Sastre. 

And... I'm really not sure who else. 

Robbie McEwen? Except he was at Rabobank in the late 90s...

I noticed Jan Svorada was given a green light by the French senate report but can we take that as evidence in his favour? I used to like him back in the day, so it would be pleasing to think he's someone I could have confidence in.

Who else would the panel like to nominate for a list of [probably] clean riders? I'm aiming for a bit of positivity here...


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## Dan B (29 Jul 2013)

Robert Millar ... but overlapping the earlier end of your date range, so I suspect not quite the era you have in mind


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## Buddfox (29 Jul 2013)

Jens Voigt


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

Dan B said:


> Robert Millar ... but overlapping the earlier end of your date range, so I suspect not quite the era you have in mind



I thought about Andy Hampsten, but both he and Millar are "80s riders" in my mind.


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

Buddfox said:


> Jens Voigt



Difficult. I want to believe in him but as with McEwen, circumstantial evidence complicates the matter.


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## thom (29 Jul 2013)

Christophe Bassons...
David Moncoutié


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

thom said:


> Christophe Bassons...



I'm not sure one stage in the Dauphiné qualifies him as successful enough for this list.


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## Flying_Monkey (29 Jul 2013)

But Moncoutié, definitely.


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## thom (29 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> I'm not sure one stage in the Dauphiné qualifies him as successful enough for this list.


I missed "reasonably successful" - we've got our work cut out then !


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## rich p (29 Jul 2013)

There's no dirt on Sastre anywhere? I find it hard to believe but maybe it's true.


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

thom said:


> we've got our work cut out then !


 
Exactly!



Flying_Monkey said:


> But Moncoutié, definitely.


 
Yep, he can go on the list.

There's also a certain Sir Bradley Wiggins, of course, though I probably think of him more as post the era I have in mind.


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> There's no dirt on Sastre anywhere?


 
Apparently not. As far as I can see, the only cause for suspicion is that he was on Riis's CSC team along with Basso et al, but he seems to be widely regarded as clean. (Voigt was on the same team, of course.)


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## thom (29 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> Apparently not. As far as I can see, the only cause for suspicion is that he was on Riis's CSC team along with Basso et al, but he seems to be widely regarded as clean. (Voigt was on the same team, of course.)


Sastre went up Alpe d'Huez very quickly... 
but that in itself is nowhere near enough to be conclusive, rather eyebrow raising given the Riis connection in my opinion


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

thom said:


> rather eyebrow raising given the Riis connection in my opinion


 
And there's also the Manolo Saiz connection, of course. So I take it few of us would be entirely surprised if Sastre did come out and admit doping... Ho hum. So much for trying to be positive (in a non-doping sense).

What about the man Sastre beat in 2008 - Cadel Evans, anyone?


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

I'm trawling the internet looking for candidates. Not having much luck. Some more possibles...

Christophe Rinero
Daniele Nardello
Jean-Cyril Robin
Francois Simon
Jerome Pineau
Sandy Casar


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## Dave Davenport (29 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> What about the man Sastre beat in 2008 - Cadel Evans, anyone?


 
Yep, I'd go for Cuddles being clean.


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## Montelimar (29 Jul 2013)

Charly Mottet, mainly 80's palmares but was 4th overall TDF 1991. Meticulous rider in every aspect, almost certainly 100% clean.


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## ohnovino (29 Jul 2013)

Graeme Obree


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## thom (29 Jul 2013)

ohnovino said:


> Graeme Obree


Undoubtedly clean but as a consequence he only lasted 1 day in pro-cycling !


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

Yeah, Bassons has more of a claim to a place on the list than Obree.

Mottet out for same reasons as Hampsten and Millar (and, for that matter, Lemond).


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## rich p (29 Jul 2013)

Sastre beat the (probably juiced) Schleck's up the Alpe. Also Kohl, Menchov and Kloden etc. He beat Evans up there by 2 minutes plus but none of this is actually enough to tar him.
If he was clean then he would certainly have won more GTs if his era had been un-doped.


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## lukesdad (29 Jul 2013)

Sastre really won that stage by default tho' didn't he , he really wasn't considered a contender and the others marked each other . One of the biggest errors of judgement I've witnessed in the tour.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Jul 2013)

Dan B said:


> Robert Millar ... but overlapping the earlier end of your date range, so I suspect not quite the era you have in mind


Raced till 94 did he not? Was he clean though? 

FWIW i was under the impression that he was a believer in replenishing natural hormones during a grand Tour. He also failed a drugs test in 92.


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## Noodley (29 Jul 2013)

Millar hinted during this year's Tour that he had started writing down what 'went on' and that he was going to go back to it, but was not sure what to do with it once written. Or something like that.


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## tigger (29 Jul 2013)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Raced till 94 did he not? Was he clean though?
> 
> FWIW i was under the impression that he was a believer in replenishing natural hormones during a grand Tour. He also failed a drugs test in 92.



Much as he's a huge idol of mine ( my first proper bike was a Robert Millar Peugeot), he is dubious for me. The positive for testosterone and growth of breasts are alarm bells. Like Noddley said, he hinted at writing an expose which would be facinating and entertaining in equal measures no doubt


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## Hill Wimp (29 Jul 2013)

Noodley said:


> Millar hinted during this year's Tour that he had started writing down what 'went on' and that he was going to go back to it, but was not sure what to do with it once written. Or something like that.


 


Just read his book, its quite revealing and he admits he did EPO


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## tigger (29 Jul 2013)

Hill Wimp said:


> Just read his book, its quite revealing and he admits he did EPO



That's David Millar FFS!


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## smutchin (29 Jul 2013)

I was trying to avoid the Millar issue by ruling him out of the discussion for being part of the wrong era. Ho hum.

But since we're discussing him anyway, he wouldn't have been on EPO in 1984. (edit: that last sentence applies to both David and Robert.  )


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## ohnovino (29 Jul 2013)

Cancellara?

Aside from the secret motor stuff, I've never really heard anyone question his performances. He has ridden with some questionable teammates though.


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## Noodley (29 Jul 2013)

Anyone who has ridden for Riis is dodgy at the least.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Jul 2013)

No his positive test was Testosterone. He denied it, as almost all do, and has done ever since. He did though work with a doctor who believed quite strongly that pro cyclists should be allowed to micro dose natural hormones back to normal and safe levels after races. Millar said something like "i took whatever he gave me, i trusted him". I forget the doctors name. 

This website has some interesting bits and bobs on who has doped, failed tests etc. It is also linked straight to Millars page.


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## lukesdad (30 Jul 2013)

Noodley said:


> Anyone who has ridden for Riis is dodgy at the least.


Anybody that rode a bike professionally was dodgy.


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## lukesdad (30 Jul 2013)

Evans is the interesting one considering how consistently highly he placed in fields of dopers.


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## Montelimar (30 Jul 2013)

Looking for clean riders who were successful during the EPO era is like looking for the needle in a haystack. After reading Tyler Hamiltons book I get the impression only some kind of superman could have cleanly won a GT in that time. I dont think its entirely in the past either although things have certainly improved. Watching the leaders sprinting madly up Col de Manse on the Gap stage this year I had to wonder. Not normal.


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## Dave Davenport (30 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Evans is the interesting one considering how consistently highly he placed in fields of dopers.


I believe Evans' power stats and times have been pretty consistent, just off the known dopers performance and didn't win the TdF until they weren't there.


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## thom (30 Jul 2013)

User3094 said:


> Was Miguel Indurain clean?


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## smutchin (30 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Sastre really won that stage by default tho' didn't he , he really wasn't considered a contender and the others marked each other . One of the biggest errors of judgement I've witnessed in the tour.


 
Good point.

My recollection of the 2008 Tour is very vague - I have a feeling the events of 2007 might have killed my interest slightly, and I might even have stopped watching after Cav pulled out - but I do recall seeing this new young "British" rider on the Barloworld team and thinking, "Oh look, it's the new Charly Wegelius." Wonder what became of him... 

Anyway, surely the 2008 results were skewed by the fact that Astana weren't invited? There was no Contador, Kloden or Leipheimer at the race, and they would have been three of the main contenders. Valverde seems to have had variable form, Cunego abandoned, Ricco was chucked out, Menchov might have been a bit tired after riding to 5th overall in the Giro...

So maybe it doesn't seem so odd after all that a probably clean rider could pull off an unlikely win with a bold bit of racing, with a probably clean rider finishing second as well.


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## ohnovino (30 Jul 2013)

Sastre attacked early and nobody wanted to work to bring him back, because doing so would mean towing the Schlecks (who were his team-mates) up the mountain for the win.

If a clean rider's going to beat a dirty field then that's probably the way they'll do it, but I wouldn't say I have a lot of confidence in that particular stage.


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## smutchin (30 Jul 2013)

ohnovino said:


> If a clean rider's going to beat a dirty field then that's probably the way they'll do it, but I wouldn't say I have a lot of confidence in that particular stage.


 
But aside from Ricco and Kohl, just how dirty was the field in 2008? What was it about the 2008 Tour that made Lance call it "a joke" and make that fatefully hubristic decision to stage a comeback in 2009?


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## rich p (30 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> But aside from Ricco and Kohl, just how dirty was the field in 2008? What was it about the 2008 Tour that made Lance call it "a joke" and make that fatefully hubristic decision to stage a comeback in 2009?


He called it a joke, IIRC, because C Van de Velde finished 5th and he regarded him as a domestique. He assumed that he could come back and win it again if CV could do so well.
The rest, as they say...


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## rich p (30 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> But aside from Ricco and Kohl, just how dirty was the field in 2008? ?


I have no doubt that some were doped but not caught, such as Valverde, and Cobo but Piepoli was caught at the same time as Ricco. Stefan Schumacher and Fofonov also fingered in that one.
Oh, and Manuel Beltran too!


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## rich p (30 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Sastre really won that stage by default tho' didn't he , he really wasn't considered a contender and the others marked each other . One of the biggest errors of judgement I've witnessed in the tour.


That rings a bell - I missed most of the race on my hols that year. So Evans didn't have a go at chasing him and lost the race to Sastre because he was worried that the Schlecks would be dragged along too?


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## ohnovino (30 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> What was it about the 2008 Tour that made Lance call it "a joke"


Does it have anything to do with the power struggle at the time between the UCI and the grand tour organisers? I could imagine Lance thinking he would be at greater risk of getting exposed if his "friends" at the UCI lost control of the sport, and belittling the ASO-run tour probably helped their cause.


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## lukesdad (30 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> That rings a bell - I missed most of the race on my hols that year. So Evans didn't have a go at chasing him and lost the race to Sastre because he was worried that the Schlecks would be dragged along too?


Basically Cuddles assumed he could do him in the ITT. What he hadn't counted on was Sastre had never had to put in a performance in a TT in his life and Cuddles got a nasty shock, he really should have won it that year he watched the wrong geezer. Not the first time and it won't be the last.


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## lukesdad (30 Jul 2013)

The big one to miss out in 2008 from Sastre a point of view of course was Basso


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## smutchin (30 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> He called it a joke, IIRC, because C Van de Velde finished 5th and he regarded him as a domestique. He assumed that he could come back and win it again if CV could do so well.


 
Exactly. It's not so far-fetched for a theoretically clean Evans and Sastre to both finish ahead of a definitely clean (by then) Vandevelde.



rich p said:


> I have no doubt that some were doped but not caught, such as Valverde, and Cobo but Piepoli was caught at the same time as Ricco. Stefan Schumacher and Fofonov also fingered in that one.
> Oh, and Manuel Beltran too!


 
Just reading up to remind myself of what happened, and... oh yeah, _now_ I remember exactly why I lost interest by halfway through... It was that ridiculous stage to Hautacam (stage 10) where Piepoli and Cobo made a laughing stock of the whole race and looked barely out of breath at the finish.

Piepoli and Cobo both left the race after stage 11, along with the rest of the Saunier-Duval team, when Ricco's positive was revealed. Piepoli's positive on stage 10 was revealed a bit later and Cobo was retroactively awarded the stage. Which is a joke.

Pffft.


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## ohnovino (30 Jul 2013)

Ricco never quite mastered the subtlety needed to be a successful cheat:


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## Dave Davenport (30 Jul 2013)

ohnovino said:


> Ricco never quite mastered the subtlety needed to be a successful cheat:




Nor did Cobo the way crossed the line with a big grin on the hardest stage of the 2011 Vuelta.


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## lukesdad (30 Jul 2013)

And how things go full circle , Sastre reverting to domestique for Cobo in 2011. Cobo wasn't fit to clean his shoes.


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## lukesdad (30 Jul 2013)

In later times I would say Tommy V but I think he's partial to the odd magic champignons !


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## Dave Davenport (30 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> In later times I would say Tommy V but I think he's partial to the odd magic champignons !


 
He looks like he's chewing a mouthful most of the time at any rate.


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## laurence (30 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> That rings a bell - I missed most of the race on my hols that year. So Evans didn't have a go at chasing him and lost the race to Sastre because he was worried that the Schlecks would be dragged along too?


 
from memory, that's about it. didn't cuddles have a dig near the top? by then, Carlos was laughing all the way to yellow. the others just looked at each other and must have figured Sastre would blow, or fall apart later. the power of yellow kept him in it.


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## Noodley (31 Jul 2013)

The 'power of yellow' my arse.


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## smutchin (31 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> That rings a bell - I missed most of the race on my hols that year. So Evans didn't have a go at chasing him and lost the race to Sastre because he was worried that the Schlecks would be dragged along too?


 


laurence said:


> from memory, that's about it. didn't cuddles have a dig near the top? by then, Carlos was laughing all the way to yellow. the others just looked at each other and must have figured Sastre would blow, or fall apart later. the power of yellow kept him in it.


 
From my reading, it seems CSC did a job on Evans. At the start of the stage, Frank Schleck was in yellow, Evans +8", Sastre +49". Andy Schleck was over nine minutes down, having blown up on the Hautacam stage. After the first climb (Galibier), CSC used O'Grady, Cancellara and Voigt to set a hard pace, isolating Evans from his team. By the top of the Croix de Fer, the yellow jersey group was just 18 riders, including six CSC men, as well as a certain C.Froome. Sastre went on the attack in the first kilometre of Alpe d'Huez. Evans didn't try anything himself until 4km to go, by which time it was too late.

In fact, Evans had probably already lost the race before then - Menchov had been pretty scathing about his failure as supposed favourite to stamp his authority on the race in the Pyrenees. I don't see any real reason to be suspicious about Sastre based on his performance alone.

Froome finished the stage over 11 minutes down. Still, not a bad showing for a neo-pro who didn't even exist until late 2011.


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## lukesdad (31 Jul 2013)

Had Froome not gone on a break earlier in the stage and been caught by the leaders ? May have been a different stage I seem to remember he had a moment on one of the descent my memory is not as good as it used to be lol


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## rich p (31 Jul 2013)

So Evans may be clean, even though he admitted visiting Dr Ferrari. Sastre maybe too given that he only won by default from ahead of other dopers.
Hmmm.


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## smutchin (31 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Had Froome not gone on a break earlier in the stage and been caught by the leaders ?



Could be. I certainly recall him being involved in a breakaway on one stage but I couldn't possibly tell you which one.


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## smutchin (31 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> So Evans may be clean, even though he admitted visiting Dr Ferrari. Sastre maybe too given that he only won by default from ahead of other dopers.
> Hmmm.



If you can believe Voigt might be clean despite his dodgy connections, you have to admit the possibility that Evans and Sastre might have been clean too...

But I think that for the purposes of this thread, we have to rule out all three - the circumstantial evidence is such that it wouldn't actually be that much of a surprise to anyone if it transpired that any of them were doping after all.

Looking back at the 2008 Tour, I can't believe I ever gave Cobo the benefit of the doubt in the 2011 Vuelta. Short memory.


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## rich p (31 Jul 2013)

smutchin said:


> If you can believe Voigt might be clean despite his dodgy connections, you have to admit the possibility that Evans and Sastre might have been clean too...
> 
> But I think that for the purposes of this thread, we have to rule out all three - the circumstantial evidence is such that it wouldn't actually be that much of a surprise to anyone if it transpired that any of them were doping after all.
> 
> Looking back at the 2008 Tour, I can't believe I ever gave Cobo the benefit of the doubt in the 2011 Vuelta. Short memory.


I just re-read this page from 2011...
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/vuelta-spoiler.84218/page-8


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## lukesdad (31 Jul 2013)

The thing about that trio was there ability to suffer with pride, the ability their contemparies lacked in abundance. Not proof that they didn't dope of course, but a good reason for many to hope they didn't .


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## Crackle (31 Jul 2013)

I did a bit of reading around Sastre and personally think he was clean. I'll find the links when I get home.

The usual clauses apply.

Oh and Millar was doper, Robert, not his son David  and yes wrong era for this discussion I reckon.


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## smutchin (31 Jul 2013)

rich p said:


> I just re-read this page from 2011...
> http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/vuelta-spoiler.84218/page-8


 
I must have already blocked the 2008 Tour out of my memory by then. ISTR thinking the Angliru stage looked a bit dodgy but that Cobo redeemed himself a bit by looking like he'd been made to suffer on stage 17 when Froome kicked his ass.


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## smutchin (31 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> The thing about that trio was there ability to suffer with pride, the ability their contemparies lacked in abundance. Not proof that they didn't dope of course, but a good reason for many to hope they didn't .


 
I personally choose to believe they're clean but I can see there are reasons for not being sure.

On the other hand, if merely being on a dodgy team is reason enough to suspect any rider, we'd have to suspect Moncoutié too...


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## rich p (31 Jul 2013)

I Sastre was dirty I suspect his name would have been linked to Fuentes somewhere along the line.


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## smutchin (31 Jul 2013)

OK, here's Team Clean so far...
Chris Boardman
Brad McGee
Brad Wiggins
David Moncoutié
Sandy Casar
Francois Simon
Jerome Pineau
Sylvain Chavanel

B[-sample] Team:
Carlos Sastre
Jens Voigt
Cadel Evans
Robbie McEwen
Jan Svorada

Really struggling to find any more names - all the ones I think look good soon turn out to have feet of clay with further investigation. I would have had Frederic Moncassin on the list until a few days ago. Here are some potentials I've dug up - comments welcome:
Jaan Kirsipuu
Cyril Saugrain
Fabio Baldato?


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## rich p (31 Jul 2013)

Marco Pinotti is clean!
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/artic...-with-italian-cyclings-voice-of-reason-30133/


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## thom (31 Jul 2013)

Phillipe Gilbert speaks loudly against doping - he's won a lot and some stuff at the later noughties but the big wins are 2010 onwards I guess


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