# Off'ed...... by a boat !



## PpPete (5 Jun 2011)

Out for a ride yesterday p.m. doing a final check out of the route for the Hampshire Bimble.

Lots of cyclists out, which is great to see.

And then .... a totally un-necessary close pass from an eejit in a Jaguar. 
Gave me about 6" clearance. Not nice .... but you get used to that sort of thing.... and then I find that he's towing a boat. As the bow of the boat goes past I realise that, a) it's not a small boat and it looks like it's going to be wider than the car b) the road narrows ahead, with railings on the side.

No choice but to ride into the ditch. Fell awkwardly, and apart from the expected grazes to knee, hip, elbow, shoulder and elbow I have a suspected broken rib (or two).

Driver was totally oblivious to anything amiss.... until another car chased him and flagged him down. I have his name & address and although I'm not generally in favour of the "litigation culture" I'm tempted to use one the claims companies that advertise in back of the mags to pursue him for ££££. Anyone any experience of these outfits ?


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## dodgy (5 Jun 2011)

www.bikeline.co.uk she's a cyclist (Alysson) who I often see around here, very highly regarded and is a specialist in cycling compensation litigation.


Hope you recover well!


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## abo (5 Jun 2011)

Did you have a cam running, sounds like a youtube classic!

Seriously though, sounds like he needs prosecuting for dangerous driving. After all, I bet he passes fixed road furniture with sufficient space not to fcuk his boat up so its not like he won't know how much space he shpuld leave. In fact, perhaps that could suggest it was deliberate, or at least negligent.

No experience of a cash for crash company but I'm assuming your bike is trashed, your clothes are trashed and you could be looking at some time off work to recover if you've got broken bones? I'd want to be put back to how things were before the crash ie a fully working bike, clothes intact (lol makes it sound like they were blown off or something) and in a position to earn cash, so compo to cover medical expenses, physio etc. to get you back to fitness asap. Thats my take anyway


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## Hip Priest (5 Jun 2011)

What a pillock. I'm impressed at your skills of anticipation. I daresay an inexperienced cyclist like myself would've ended up wedged between the railing and The SS Bellend. Kudos also to the other motorist who chased him down. Get well soon.


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## rusky (5 Jun 2011)

Glad you're more or less OK.

Go to the docs & get checked out, that way you have a record if you go legal. Are you not a fully paid up member of CTC? If not, use R, J & W - same people http://www.rjw.co.uk/


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## funnymummy (5 Jun 2011)

Oh MyGoodness xx So glad your arn't more serioulsy injured, what a complete & utter tit driving that car. I have no experience eiether with claims & such, but if i needed to make one i'd go through the CTC - It's one of hr reaosn we joined them.
Good luck & i hope you recover quickly xxx


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

Heal fast PpPete. I assume the police have been involved? If not involve them and seek advice from one the specialist solicitors recommended above.


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## smokeysmoo (5 Jun 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> The SS Bellend.


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## coffeejo (5 Jun 2011)

Ouch. What a total bar steward. Hope you feel better soon.


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## abo (5 Jun 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> The SS Bellend



Quote of the week lol


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## leyburnrunner (5 Jun 2011)

to ramp up the proceedings (both police and compensation) you really need independent witnesses. did you get any contact details from anyone who saw the incident?


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## Arch (5 Jun 2011)

Yes, report to the police, you were injured. The driver ought to have done so too. He probably ought to be charged with driving with undue care, and leaving the scene, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

Did you get details off any witnesses - the other car driver, etc?

I'm also not a fan of 'daft' litigation*, but if someone has a jag and a boat, and drives like that, take em for every penny you can... 

Go through CTC or Bikeline or similar, and be prepared for the driver, and his insurance, to do everything they can to avoid paying up, including claiming you rode out into his path or something.



*People trying to sue when they could have avoided the accident with a little care, etc.


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## exbfb (5 Jun 2011)

I've never claimed on a single insurance policy in my life, but in these circumstances, I would be making sure that I was puttiing the bite into this one hard.

Jag towing a boat.
Yeah ok, not exactly skint then.
He has materially affected your life and potentially your livelihood too.
He has to apy for what he did.

Mate of mind who used to commute on his motorbike was a SMIDSY victim some years ago.
Two cars turning right across his bow, the first had the time and space to do so, the 2nd never even looked, just followed. Cue the biker flying through the air and landing about 20 metres up the road.

The insurance company settled the day before it went to court.
He never ever told me what his payout was, but he did say that he'll never have to work again.

Get started straight away.


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## numbnuts (5 Jun 2011)

Glad your OK Pete


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## Night Train (5 Jun 2011)

Sorry to hear that and I hope you are not too badly injured otherwise.

I hope you have teh witness details too, it is careless driving at least as the driver clearly didn't care that he was too close and probably didn't even think about the effects of towing a trailer either.

A claim is worth doing if you can, as much as a punishment for the driver as compensation for your damages and injuries.


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## Globalti (5 Jun 2011)

My elder sister was knocked off her bike in exactly the same circumstances by a caravan many years ago in her twenties, she was quite badly hurt but didn't get the registration. About a year later she developed MS and she died three days before her 50th birthday. Sometimes I blame the stress of the bike accident for her MS, it's irrational I know, but that's human nature for you.

Anyway if the bloke drove away from the scene of the accident I'd have thought the Police could do him for driving away, due care and attention and probably a couple of other things too.


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## jayonabike (5 Jun 2011)

Hope you feel better soon & get back on the bike as soon as possible.


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## Bollo (5 Jun 2011)

Sorry to hear about this one Pete, sounds like a horror. Are you going to be alright for the Bimble?

On the topic of compensation and solicitors, definitely to to a specialist and follow the recommendations on here. I went through the CTC's RJ&W who were very good, but I've also heard many good things about the other briefs listed here. You'll get proper, realistic pragmatic advice from them.


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## APK (5 Jun 2011)

Globalti said:


> Anyway if the bloke drove away from the scene of the accident I'd have thought the Police could do him for driving away, due care and attention and probably a couple of other things too.




It should certainly be reported to the Police, but assuming he was not aware of the accident, then they would be unlikely to prosecute him, again with regards careless driving etc, I doubt if they will be too bothered as it would require witnesses etc to argue against him. 

Just re-reading your original post, not even sure you would get anywhere with his insurance, as it sounds like you took the avoiding action , they could argue your action was excessive as the boat "would not have hit you"?


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## snorri (5 Jun 2011)

I would definitely be reporting that experience to the police, claiming for damages would be a secondary thought, the driver needs "a word" from a police officer urgently.


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## Arch (5 Jun 2011)

APK said:


> It should certainly be reported to the Police, but assuming he was not aware of the accident, then they would be unlikely to prosecute him, again with regards careless driving etc, I doubt if they will be too bothered as it would require witnesses etc to argue against him.
> 
> Just re-reading your original post, not even sure you would get anywhere with his insurance, as it sounds like you took the avoiding action , they could argue your action was excessive as the boat "would not have hit you"?



That's just the sort of lousy trick they'll try. Hence the need for competent solicitors. I seem to recall a precedent for a cyclist being judged (by a judge) to require enough room for a wobble when overtaken. If a cyclist needs to dive for the verge, that implies they are pretty expectant of being hit.

I dunno how the law stands, but not being aware of the incident seems fairly careless to me. However I don't hold out much hope of police action. Reporting it at least gets into the stats, and hopefully gives the daft driver a bit of a scare.


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## Jezston (5 Jun 2011)

APK said:


> It should certainly be reported to the Police, but assuming he was not aware of the accident, then they would be unlikely to prosecute him, again with regards careless driving etc, I doubt if they will be too bothered as it would require witnesses etc to argue against him.
> 
> Just re-reading your original post, not even sure you would get anywhere with his insurance, as it sounds like you took the avoiding action , they could argue your action was excessive as the boat "would not have hit you"?



Guys, please don't go down the "police probably won't do anything" route. The last thing we should be doing is dis-encouraging people to report such incidents to the police.


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## Rouge Penguin (5 Jun 2011)

Pull his trousers down and trackpump him for every penny. Needs to be taught to drive properly.


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## APK (5 Jun 2011)

Jezston said:


> Guys, please don't go down the "police probably won't do anything" route. The last thing we should be doing is dis-encouraging people to report such incidents to the police.



Agree, the incident should be reported to the Police, but don't expect a traffic car going to arrest the guy on blues and twos. Before christmas my 13 y/o got knocked off his bike on the way home from school, and I had a hell of a fight just to get the police to take a report!


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## Crackle (5 Jun 2011)

Jeez Pete, hope you're not too badly off, give us an update.

I'm fairly wary of people towing as they often seem to forget what they're towing. I've seen caravans mount kerbs too often. I had a very similiar incident last year where a car came past and I thought, blimey he's close and then the caravan came past after him. I wouldn't have had to do any more than stick my elbow out to touch it. Not much surprises me or makes me jump but that did. Luckily the whole outfit was going slowly and as he cleared me I gesticulated wildly and obviously that I needed more room. Gawd knows if the old duffer saw me but the next three cars behind passed me wide and slow 

Really hope you're not incapacitated for any length of time by this and I would seriously contact the solicitor Dodgy recomended. I'm not one for litigation but sometimes it's the only way in an incident like this to get justice done. I trust you got the witnesses details too.


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## 400bhp (5 Jun 2011)

Hip Priest said:


> The SS Bellend.





One of the funniest things i've read on here.


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## exbfb (5 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> I'm not one for litigation but sometimes it's the only way in an incident like this to get justice done. I trust you got the witnesses details too.




I'm totally with you here.
It's not always necessary to resort to legal redress but in this case, it's time to put the big boots on and get stuck right in with the full force of whatever form of redress can be brought to bear.

My little event yesterday was a non event, but there are similarities.
Pompous cock in Jaguar meandering throughout his life not taking responsibility for his own actions.
These people must not ever be allowed to believe that they are exempt from responsibility and can somehow prance around operating to a different, dare I say "superior" set of rules.

I think you need to attract his attention in somewhat definitive fashion.
Report it to the police, get an incident number.
Consult legal advice.
In with the rottweilers.


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## Jezston (5 Jun 2011)

Here's a question for those in the know:

Someone's misbehaviour leaves you unable to work for a period of time. What's to stop your employer taking legal action against those responsible to reclaim the losses caused by your absence?


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## ohnovino (5 Jun 2011)

Two possibilities:


He knew he'd caused an accident, but he drove off anyway. Easy prosecution for leaving the scene of an accident.
He was so unaware of his surroundings that he didn't even know he'd forced you off. Easy prosecution for careless driving.
I wonder which "defence" he'll pick.

Oh, nearly forgot ... Get Well Soon!


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## Aperitif (5 Jun 2011)

Yes, speedy recovery Pete - not pleasant.


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## SlowerThanASluggishSloth (5 Jun 2011)

.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery. I hope you'll be back on the/a bike soon.


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## Arch (5 Jun 2011)

SlowerThanASluggishSloth said:


> .
> Best wishes for a speedy recovery. I hope you'll be back on the/a bike soon.



That's unfair. I wouldn't wish anyone back on an a-bike



Oh and if the OP doesn't get anywhere legally, we can all go round with corkscrews and turn the boat into an oversized colander...


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## rusky (5 Jun 2011)

Arch said:


> That's unfair. I wouldn't wish anyone back on an a-bike
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and if the OP doesn't get anywhere legally, we can all go round with corkscrews and turn the boat into an oversized colander...



At least we would be on an even keel


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## Angelfishsolo (5 Jun 2011)

Count me in on that one  <humour>I have some brake fluid somewhere and I hear it is a great paint stripper especially on Jags  </humour>


Arch said:


> Oh and if the OP doesn't get anywhere legally, we can all go round with corkscrews and turn the boat into an oversized colander...


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## SlowerThanASluggishSloth (5 Jun 2011)

.
.


rusky said:


> At least we would be on an even keel



I bow to your nautical knowledge


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## Crackle (5 Jun 2011)

rusky said:


> At least we would be on an even keel




That's not a joke you can be prow'ed of.


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## Dayvo (5 Jun 2011)

Bloody 'ell, Pete, you landlubber you!  

Glad that you're not more seriously damaged and well done for anticipating something potentially far more serious.

As others have said, if they're driving a Jag (badly) and towing a boat, then they have cash to cover you for injuries and damage. 

Make sure you get competent legal folk on your side, but more importantly, make a full recovery asap.


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## BrumJim (5 Jun 2011)

Off'ed by a boat?

Is this you: http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/cycling/cycling-across-water-yvon-le-caer/ ?


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## Baggy (5 Jun 2011)

Jezston said:


> Guys, please don't go down the "police probably won't do anything" route. The last thing we should be doing is dis-encouraging people to report such incidents to the police.


Agreed, the few times we've felt the need to report stuff they've been really helpful.

Glad that overall you're ok Pete, and hope you are soon on the mend.


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## Sittingduck (5 Jun 2011)

GWS Pete!


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## cloggsy (5 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> ... until another car chased him and flagged him down. I have his name & address and although I'm not generally in favour of the "litigation culture" I'm tempted to use one the claims companies that advertise in back of the mags to pursue him for ££££. Anyone any experience of these outfits ?



It's handy that you have a witness (the pursuer.)

I'd speak to someone about making a claim; it might make the driver think twice about cyclists in the future...


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## 4F (5 Jun 2011)

get well soon pete


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## Bollo (5 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> That's not a joke you can be prow'ed of.



Sounds like the driver is a complete anchor.


I'll get my sou'wester.


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## slowmotion (5 Jun 2011)

Best wishes Pete.


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## PpPete (6 Jun 2011)

Thanks all for your good wishes... except Hip Priest, SS Bellend indeed, don't you know that laughing HURTS when you have broken ribs ?

Groaning at the awful puns isn't half as bad...

Seriously, you have all cheered me up no end.


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## PpPete (6 Jun 2011)

I've been on to the CTC's helpline... which is just a front for a firm of solicitors, given them a few details, but I really don't like the thought of long drawn out legal proceedings, especially when the driver has already admitted liability, so I thought I'd write to him along the lines of:

Re: Road Traffic Accident 17:40hrs	on B3056 north of Beaulieu for which you admitted liability.

Dear Mr xxxxx

As I suspected, my local bike shop are very busy and unable to check my bike for, or repair any damage for the next few weeks. I have therefore examined it closely myself.

I can see no damage to the frame, apart from some significant new paintwork scratches. 

The wheels appear to be round & true.

Handle bars appear to be undamaged, however the brake levers have been knocked out of position which indicates that the handlebars have sustained some impact and should therefore be replaced as a safety precaution.

Rear Derailleur (gear) mechanism is badly scratched.

Right hand pedal crank is badly scratched and contacts front derailleur mechanism on each pedal rotation, so would appear to be bent slightly out of alignment. Unfortunately it is not possible to purchase just the crank, these are only available as a complete crankset. An impact sufficient to bend a crank ( a solid aluminium casting) may also have damaged the bottom bearings so I think it necessary to replace these also.

Listed below the exact parts required, with costs, and showing such discounts as I can obtain through my membership of the CTC (Cyclist’s Touring Club)


Frame Respray (http://www.argoscycles.com/www/renovation-pricelist.htm) £125.00
Lug lining and replacement decals £82.00

Handlebars (Nitto B135) (www.freshtripe.co.uk appears to be only UK retailer) £36.00

Rear Derailleur Shimano Ultegra 6500-GS no longer available – replaced by 
RD-6700-GS R.R.P £79.99 available through CTC with discount £70.39
http://www.ctcshop.org.uk/cycling/p...700_10_Speed_Rear_Derailleur_(GS)/5360042811/ 

Crankset Shimano 105 5500 Hollowtech II no longer available replaced by 
5703 model R.R.P £164.99 available through CTC with discount £145.19
http://www.ctcshop.org.uk/cycling/p...703_Hollowtech_II_Triple_Chainset/5360057101/ 

Shimano 105 5700 Bottom Bracket Cup Set R.R.P. £ 24.99 - CTC Discount £21.99
http://www.ctcshop.org.uk/cycling/p/CTC/22/Shimano_105_5700_Bottom_Bracket_Cup_Set/5360057102/ 

Total: £480.57

I should tell you that I have contacted the CTC’s accident helpline, but since that is now merely a front for a “Claims Management” firm of solicitors, and I really do not like the litigation culture that seems to be growing in this country, I would be quite happy to deal with this matter privately, and ask them to close the case on receipt of your cheque for the above amount.

Finally may I ask that you consider very carefully when you overtake cyclists in future, and give them at least the recommended two metres clearance, to allow for any sudden manoeuvres they may need to make to avoid potholes. 

Any thoughts? Especially on the last paragraph ? I'm sure I've read 2 metres somewhere - but cant remember where?


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## Crackle (6 Jun 2011)

Very noble of you Pete. I guess I'd change the last bit to reflect what it says in the highway code of giving vulnerable road users as much room as you would when overtaking a car http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_070314


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## PpPete (6 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> Very noble of you Pete. I guess I'd change the last bit to reflect what it says in the highway code of giving vulnerable road users as much room as you would when overtaking a car http://www.direct.go...ycode/DG_070314



Good one - thanks Crax
Final paragraph changed to:
Finally may I ask that you consider very carefully when you overtake cyclists in future, and recall that Rule 163 of the Highway Code requires motorists to “give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car”.


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## dodgy (6 Jun 2011)

I predict he will be shocked at the repair costs.


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## benb (6 Jun 2011)

At least he has admitted liability, so that's something.
Hopefully he'll be more careful next time.


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## 4F (6 Jun 2011)

I bet as soon as he sees that total he will change his tune and before you know it the legal route will be the only option.


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## Amanda P (6 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> I've been on to the CTC's helpline... which is just a front for a firm of solicitors, given them a few details, but I really don't like the thought of long drawn out legal proceedings, especially when the driver has already admitted liability, so I thought I'd write to him along the lines of...



They may be only a firm of solicitors, but they are one that specialises in this sort of occurrence; they seem to know what they're doing and won't advise you to proceed if they don't think they - or you, of course - will gain anything from it.

Anyway, particularly if the driver has admitted liability, are the police interested at all? They should be. And your case for damages should (I would have thought) in no way affect a prosecution for dangerous or careless driving.


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## dellzeqq (6 Jun 2011)

Pete - my strong advice to you is to keep any claim open-ended until you are completely satisfied that you are not going to suffer any lasting effects, and that you have the bike (particularly the frame) given a once-over by a bike shop.

Twenty four years ago I got knocked off and settled. I'm still in pain.

p.s. I think the HC says 1.5 metres


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## MacB (6 Jun 2011)

I'd certainly not send detail like that until the bike was totally checked, including frame alignment, then there's the personal injury as well. I know you don't want to proceed along those lines but you could end up with serious problems and no recourse. Keep things fluid until you're more certain.

Glad the injuries aren't more serious and wishing you a speedy recovery....Al


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## threebikesmcginty (6 Jun 2011)

Hope you feel better soon, broken ribs are really painful!


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## Bollo (6 Jun 2011)

Sorry Pete, I'm just off out so have to keep this brief. I believe that 480 quid is within the small claims limit, which means that you'd have to pursue this through the small claims by yourself. Any solicitor will only take this on if they can reclaim costs, which you can't do for small claims. The CTC will provide you with a small claims pack if you're a member, but it's nothing you couldn't find on the Internet with a bit of looking.

RJ and W, the CTC's chosen firm, are in this to get paid like anyone else, but they have specialists and will be sensible.

Finally take heed of dell's advice. If we meet on the Bimble, there's a reason I'll be shiny with Ibruprofen, even though I was back on the bike the day after my accident in 2007. The longer term damage doesn't always show itself quickly.

Whatever you decide to do, get yourself sorted for the 19th!


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## snorri (6 Jun 2011)

Wot MacB and Dell' said.


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## abo (6 Jun 2011)

Cost of stripping the frame and forks down ready for painting?


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## APK (6 Jun 2011)

If he has admitted liability why not just put it through his insurance? 

Given the damage to the cranks, surely the frame will be damaged as well?

I suspect if you put through his insurance they will not mess about, and you will find a new bike coming your way.

With regards personal injury, you have been quite badly injured, and although you do not want to go to the ambulance chasers, you deserve compensation for the pain, and no doubt the time off work etc, I suspect the personal compensation will be in excess of £5,000? does that not help to change your mind?


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## PpPete (6 Jun 2011)

I think he might be a surprised by the total amount too...

The question is, do scratches on a rear mech really justify replacement ? and similar for the rest of it?

OTH - is he prepared to risk me getting a solicitor involved... with possible claim for personal injury, pain & suffering, loss of earnings - and anything else they can think up so as to maximise their cut. If they really pile it on he'd have to get his insurers involved and face losing his no-claims discount, and that, I suspect, could be a lot more than £457 per year for a Jag?


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## Dave Davenport (6 Jun 2011)

Glad you're didn't come off any worse pete, get well soon.

I can understand you're reluctance to add to the claim culture but think you'll probably have to go that way to get any recompense. I was knocked off at Iply cross roads a few years ago, bike was a write off but I got away with soft tissue damage. The driver admitted to driving without due care and did an awareness course. I gave him the option of paying me £700 for a new bike but he declined so I put it with a firm advertising in the comic. Eventually got the bike paid for and £1400 for injuries (they seemed quite surprised that I didn't try to exagerate them). The whole thing cost his insurers about £6k when if they'd offered be a grand at the beggining I'd have said yes.


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## PK99 (6 Jun 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> Pete - my strong advice to you is to *keep any claim open-ended until you are completely satisfied that you are not going to suffer any lasting effects*, and that you have the bike (particularly the frame) given a once-over by a bike shop.





+1

It was weeks later as my back eased that my knee injury revealed itself.

Smidsy last April. CTC assisted claim paid in full in December - new bike, bupa refunded, £5,350 cash
Injuries:
strained thumb
cracked ribs
ricked back
cruciate knee ligamant strain.

Insurance company accepted letter from my LBS that bike was "beyond economic repair" with quote for parts and labour


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## Camgreen (6 Jun 2011)

4F said:


> I bet as soon as he sees that total he will change his tune and before you know it the legal route will be the only option.




For what's worth the same thought went through my mind; chances are that the Jag driver probably has no clue as to the true potential cost (and let's be honest on closer inspection it might prove to be worse than you thought) and thinks they'll just be handing over a few pound notes to repair a few scratches and do a bit of straightening. Once they've seen the true cost of their negligence, at best they'll baulk at the size of the bill and try and negotiate; at worst deny all culpability.


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## sunnyjim (6 Jun 2011)

APK said:


> If he has admitted liability why not just put it through his insurance?
> 
> Given the damage to the cranks, surely the frame will be damaged as well?
> 
> ...






Absolutely- if you haven't already got it, ask for his insurance details - for only £1000 or so, they'll probably pay up without argument. If he wants to talk about a private cash settlement, let him open the negotiation. (he will probably be braking the rules of his insurance policy if he does, and is in a weak position). 

Even when driving carefully & giving lots of clearance, when towing something with a long nose like a boat trailer and passing other vehicles slowly, it's always necessary to watch for people - cars or bikes - drifting into the line of the trailer wheels or overhang of the hull after the tow vehicle has passed with an apparently very wide margin. This clearly wasn't the problem in your case, but you want to make sure this argument couldn't be used as an excuse.


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## Night Train (6 Jun 2011)

I would also add not to close the claim at the amounts and parts you have suggested.
If in a few weeks you have the bike inspected and find there is more damage then you will need to be able to add that to the bill, also any personal injury too.
If he is still prepared to pay it all then fair enough but I can't see that happening as many people don't realise the cost of parts and labour on 'such a simple thing' as a bike.


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## Bman (6 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> I think he might be a surprised by the total amount too...
> 
> The question is, do scratches on a rear mech really justify replacement ? and similar for the rest of it?
> 
> OTH - is he prepared to risk me getting a solicitor involved... with possible claim for personal injury, pain & suffering, loss of earnings - and anything else they can think up so as to maximise their cut. If they really pile it on he'd have to get his insurers involved and face losing his no-claims discount, and that, I suspect, could be a lot more than £457 per year for a Jag?



Yes, you shouldnt be worse off because of his actions. Thats what his insurance is for. 

As for your email, if you send that and he accepts, that is it. Settled. If you find that you have, for instance re-occuring back problems in later life caused by this, you have no recourse. You have already settled. 

If I was in constant pain and not even able to laugh through some motons actions, I would take him/her to the cleaners.

Photos and day-to-day logs of your injuries would help

Speak to some experts and get well soon!


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## exbfb (6 Jun 2011)

Pete

I admire your gentlemanly conduct and how you have worded your communication.

I take my hat off to you.


However.

It's early days and you really have had quite an accident.

This must go through his insurance as a claim.
If it doesn't, he's paid you off cheaply for £500...

He needs to learn the error of his ways, for your sake and every other cyclist out there.

A nicely inflated insurance premium for the next five years would help here.


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## Arch (6 Jun 2011)

I'd agree with everyone who says don't settle now.

I also wouldn't put this bit, if you did decide to contact him:

I should tell you that I have contacted the CTC’s accident helpline, but since that is now merely a front for a “Claims Management” firm of solicitors, and I really do not like the litigation culture that seems to be growing in this country, I would be quite happy to deal with this matter privately, and ask them to close the case on receipt of your cheque for the above amount.

To me, that reads as you being a weak touch, with morals. You may well be dealing with someone with no morals, and they will use any weakness they can find to do you out of any recompense. He won't care who the CTC are, or what their helpline is. You no doubt want to appear maganimous, but that only works when you're dealing with someone who has similar principles. Sorting it out 'man to man' is alright if you're equal weights, but this guy may have no qualms at all about employing a solicitor to do you out of even a penny.

Take him to the cleaners. The CTC solicitors aren't some fly-by-night outfit, and will do what's right for you.


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## PpPete (6 Jun 2011)

I have now had a conversation with RJ&W (CTC's solicitor) and am seriously considering my options...

One possibility is modify my letter to him as follows:

Dear MrXXXXX
You asked me to let you know if there was any damage to my bike as a result of the above incident. As I suspected, my local bike shop are very busy and unable to check my bike for, or repair any damage for the next few weeks. In the interim I have therefore examined it closely myself, and have provided on the sheet attached details of the repairs and parts that I consider are required, with costs, and showing such discounts as I can obtain through my membership of the CTC (Cyclist’s Touring Club). [attached is same list as on earlier draft]  I am prepared to install these parts in my own time, and at my own liability. In addition to the discounts available through the CTC I also get free legal representation through them, and have had exploratory discussions with their solicitors who advise that: 

a) since injury is involved I should report the accident to the Police. 


b) they will require a detailed professional examination of the bike – she told me “off the record” that with damage as extensive as I’ve detailed on the attached she would not be surprised if it was considered to be a write-off and they would then claim for a new bike of equivalent quality.

c) they will require an independent medical examination of my injuries, and that however minor they always claim for at least £1000 for physical injury, over and above any other costs, since below that limit the matter would be handled by the Small Claims Court and they would not then be able to recover their costs from your insurers.

d) they would also claim for any reasonable travel and other out of pocket expenses incurred until such time as the claim is finally settled and the bike repaired – a timescale which would depend in the first instance on the degree of cooperation they receive from your insurers, but likely to be several weeks or months.

All their costs would also be recovered from your insurers.

I will be entirely frank with you and tell you that I really would prefer, physical recovery permitting, to be back riding again much sooner than that. I also really do not like the litigation culture that seems to be growing in this country. I would therefore be quite happy to deal with this matter privately, and advise the solicitors that I am not pursuing the case, if you are prepared to accept my attached estimate and offer a reasonable additional sum by way of compensation for injury and inconvenience.

The only other thing that I would ask, is that you undertake to consider very carefully when you overtake cyclists in future, and recall that Rule 163 of the Highway Code says:

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so.

· You should not get too close to the vehicle you intend to overtake

· Give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car”. 


What say you all ?


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## 400bhp (6 Jun 2011)

Pete, I can understand the logic in what you are doing but I think you are wasting your time mate.

For one, he would be ill advised to accept your "offer" as my understanding is there is nothing to stop you going back later for more.

Just go down the insurance route.he has an obligation to inform his insurance company of the accident regardless. Will he really do this if settled without their involvement? I don't want to be subsiding such drivers when I take out insurance.


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## MacB (6 Jun 2011)

Pete, it's your judgement call and you've at least met the guy, my cynical side says you're wasting your time and potentially giving yourself hassle you don't need. But you've got to live with yourself, not us, so if you wouldn't be happy without at least making an offer then go for it. The letter is good and hits the right note, though the final admonishment is unlikely to be well received no matter how well intentioned.


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## exbfb (6 Jun 2011)

I agree with the final point made by MacB.

You're doing very well until the last section regarding the advice regarding the highway code.

I suspect that this might just rub him up the wrong way.


Quite honestly, I wouldn't be putting in so much effort on behalf of someone who, but for the grace of God, nearly killed you.
You're trying way too hard to be the good guy.

It sounds like you aren't looking for compensation out of proportion to your losses.

Fine, the insurance company will make a lowball offer as an opening gambit anyway.

At that point, you have the opportunity to acccept if you consider it to be enough.

Your own solicitors will advise you accordingly and certainly much better than we perhaps might be able to.


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## sunnyjim (6 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> I have now had a conversation with RJ&W (CTC's solicitor) and am seriously considering my options...
> 
> One possibility is modify my letter to him as follows:
> 
> ...






I don't know what communication you may already have had, but if I were in the erring boat-towers position, I'd be asking myself why you don't seem to want this to go through your respective insurance companies like any other road incident. This isn't 'compensation culture' it's a simple case of one party causing injury & damage through incompetence and lack of attention. That is what insurance is for.

If you just want a reasonable sum for bike repair/replacement (but not 'compensation' and forfeiting any further claim) without going through insurance, it might be better to say it outright & ask for £x000 for a new bike - well defined number and easily agreed as the actual cost in the shops. You don't have to justify anything in detail. Otherwise, a polite note saying you thank him for the offer of a quick settlement but you'd rather let the professionals handle it would be in order. 

I have empathy (but not sympathy) with the culprit, as a regular, although hopefully competent & considerate, boat-tower (including sometime with a Jag..) in his position I would almost certainly want you to deal with my insurance company, and resolve to be a better driver in future. A private settlement involves trust on both sides - the insurance company would not be happy if they found out, as this is effectively hiding a potential claim hence falsely keeping his no-claim bonus.


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## MacB (6 Jun 2011)

Another thing to consider Pete is whether this guy would jump at the chance to deal privately and what his motivation for doing so may be. Maybe he's just one more accident away from having to take a re-test, or sit a medical or his insurance may say enough is enough and no more boat towing. By keeping it off the record you're potentially allowing something worse to happen.


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## YahudaMoon (7 Jun 2011)

Hi Pete. Glad your alive. Its just all part of the cycling malarkey getting bumped off the road unfortunately.

Hows the Klic Fix seat post bag ? Hope you didn't break it ha ha ha


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## PpPete (7 Jun 2011)

Just had a phone conversation with the gentleman...very civil on both sides. Didn't give him any details over the phone. Simply told him that I wanted him to be in full possession of the facts before he made a decision on whether he wanted to handle the matter privately or to go through his insurers. Then e-mailed that letter to him - without the last paragraph. And emphasised in a covering note that I am leaving the choice of going through insurance or making an offer privately rests entirely with him. 

I havn't yet decided what minimum level of private settlement I might accept !


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## Angelfishsolo (7 Jun 2011)

Good for you. That sounds like a much better option  Best of luck and continue to heal quickly.


PpPete said:


> Just had a phone conversation with the gentleman...very civil on both sides. Didn't give him any details over the phone. Simply told him that I wanted him to be in full possession of the facts before he made a decision on whether he wanted to handle the matter privately or to go through his insurers. Then e-mailed that letter to him - without the last paragraph. And emphasised in a covering note that I am leaving the choice of going through insurance or making an offer privately rests entirely with him.
> 
> I havn't yet decided what minimum level of private settlement I might accept !


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## PpPete (7 Jun 2011)

YahudaMoon said:


> Hows the Klic Fix seat post bag ? Hope you didn't break it ha ha ha



Not yet fitted !


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## cyberknight (7 Jun 2011)

MacB said:


> Pete, it's your judgement call and you've at least met the guy, my cynical side says you're wasting your time and potentially giving yourself hassle you don't need. But you've got to live with yourself, not us, so if you wouldn't be happy without at least making an offer then go for it. The letter is good and hits the right note, though the final admonishment is unlikely to be well received no matter how well intentioned.



+1 i think the last bit is likely to rock the boat rather than help to calm the waters ( pun intended).
Trying to educate someone is liable just to make them dig their heels in , just stick with the facts .

As for dealing with the matter privately i hope it works out but you have no legal standing if you do so if he backs out, i would rather go the legit route if they have admitted liability and you have witnesses.

I hope you heal well and get yourself sorted .


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## perplexed (7 Jun 2011)

dellzeqq said:


> Pete - my strong advice to you is to keep any claim open-ended until you are completely satisfied that you are not going to suffer any lasting effects, and that you have the bike (particularly the frame) given a once-over by a bike shop.
> 
> Twenty four years ago I got knocked off and settled. I'm still in pain.
> 
> p.s. I think the HC says 1.5 metres




+1

But most importantly, hope you're well soon!


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## PpPete (7 Jun 2011)

Update .... when I spoke to him on the phone at lunch time he indicated that he'd look at my e-mail when he got home this evening, and give me a call. He hasn't responded by e-mail nor has he called, and I assume he won't call this evening now. Either he's shitting himself about what I've said in the e-mail (I would be, in his shoes) or perhaps more likely he's decided to do the intelligent thing and pass my communication on to his insurers... so my well intentioned strategy may have backfired, because the next thing that happens is surely that the insurers will call me directly to make a ludicrously low-ball offer.

Anyone suggest a more likely train of events? Please don't all say I told you so.... All I can say is that he admitted liability at the time, apologised profusely and offered to pay for any damages....I really felt I had to give him that chance.

Be assured that I will refuse to communicate directly with his insurers - if they call me the the mere fact that they do so means that the driver has made his choice between the two options. I'll simply tell them that I'm not prepared to listen any offer from them because the matter is now irretrievably in the hands of my legal advisers.

I've no doubt they may try to name a figure anyway in the hope of tempting me .... if you all want to start a sweepstake on what such a figure might be, be my guest !

more updates to follow when further news


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## MacB (7 Jun 2011)

Ah, you just had to try and do the right thing eh!!!  hopefully he's just digesting and will call and sort it all smoothly, but I'd guess he's had the 'bikes cost how much' shock to his system. Maybe I've been watching too much Dr Who but I'm now envisaging you in the:-

a good man goes to war

role


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## davehann (7 Jun 2011)

for the sake of the rest of the cyclists on the road at risk from arrogant boat pullers like that you must persue this guy through the courts!


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## PpPete (8 Jun 2011)

MacB said:


> Ah, you just had to try and do the right thing eh!!!  hopefully he's just digesting and will call and sort it all smoothly, but I'd guess he's had the 'bikes cost how much' shock to his system. Maybe I've been watching too much Dr Who but I'm now envisaging you in the:-
> 
> a good man goes to war
> 
> role





At least typing ROFL doesn't make my ribs hurt.... you bar steward you. Be careful mate, my solicitors might decide you have aggravated my injuries and come after you !


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## PpPete (8 Jun 2011)

Or maybe a defamation of character case.....


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## Crackle (8 Jun 2011)

Well, you've done the noble thing Pete but it looks like you might have to turn this over to the legal bodds. Unfortunately not everyone has your morals and this guy probably had a Jolly Roger furled in his locker.

You'll never make defamation stick against MacB, he can produce a couple of hundred forum witnesses who'll testify they never take him seriously.


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## APK (8 Jun 2011)

I suspect he may now just be keeping his head down, hoping you go away, I doubt if his insurers will contact you, it is now up to you to do the chasing, be careful timewise, you need to notify his insurers asap, and I would also contact the police if you have not already done so. Do not let this drift on and get forgotten, if you are now going through solictors, instruct them now to get acting.


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## Bollo (8 Jun 2011)

Crackle said:


> You'll never make defamation stick against MacB, he can produce a couple of hundred forum witnesses who'll testify they never take him seriously.


I'll not hear a word against 'Bludge. Only a few days ago he was happy to give me a lift in his Jag to the Marina..........waitaminute!!!!!!!!


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## PpPete (14 Jun 2011)

Update.

Well I got all the forms from RJ&W (CTC's solicitor), got my statement all ready for the Police (using Vike's template) .... and then the Jag driver offered me a few hundred pounds, to pay for bike damage, in a private settlement. In his email to me he told me he'd been back to the scene, measured the width of the road etc, tried to justify his actions by reference to oncoming traffic which prevented him pulling out further in overtaking me .

I responded politely by suggesting it would be better to leave things in the hands of the professionals (having of course previously explained to him that I would be represented by solicitors experienced in cycle claims) and would he mind giving me details of his insurance (just to speed things along). 

When we spoke on the phone the next day (all very civilized) he increased his offer quite dramatically to a figure that was about half what my researches suggested I *might* have expected to get from his insurers.

I emphasise the "might".... it would all depend on assessments of bike damage, my injuries and then negotiation (or litigation) between solicitor and insurer, all a long drawn out process that frankly I could do without.

The amount he offered was also only just shy of the price of the new bike I've been lusting after, and I elected to trade that ability to get that ASAP rather than wait for the possibility of a higher payout in a few months time.

So - the cheque has arrived and passed immediately on to the bike shop, the road rash and the ribs seem to be healing well, and I'm hopeful of being back in the saddle by the time the new bike arrives.

Just want to say a big thank you to all who posted messages of support and advice. Even though in the end we settled privately, counter to most peoples advice, I was able to use a lot of the specific advice to very good effect in my discussions with the driver.


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## MacB (14 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> The amount he offered was also only just shy of the price of the new bike I've been lusting after, and I elected to trade that ability to get that ASAP rather than wait for the possibility of a higher payout in a few months time.



ah, the lure of 'shiny shiny'


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## Crackle (14 Jun 2011)

I'm glad it's sorted Pete. Did you also both sign some sort of statement of settlement? I'm not sure what standing such a statement has in legality but having once sorted out something privately for the in-laws involving a smash, the letter I wrote up and got the other party to sign later came in handy when his insurance company, whom he'd innoncently informed of the accident and private settlement, then began, mistakenly, another claim. The produced letter, stopped it in it's tracks.


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## Jezston (14 Jun 2011)

Much as I should admonish you for not dishing out the punishment in the courtroom he rightly deserved, I probably would have done the same


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## PpPete (14 Jun 2011)

Crackle, good point and one we have considered. I've confirmed to him by email that I have received the cheque and that I am accepting the amount in full & final settlement, and will give him that in hard copy signed, when the cheque is cleared.


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## PpPete (14 Jun 2011)

User13710 said:


> If it's taught the driver a lesson that would be good too.


Well I did manage to direct him to Highway Code Rule 163 during the course of one out phone conversations.... but I suspect he'll remember the money side more !




User13710 said:


> we'll be seeing you on Sunday, maybe not on the new bike?


New bike not yet unfortunately, might have come to be the fixie !


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## MacB (14 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> New bike not yet unfortunately, might have come to be the fixie !



You do know how deeply humiliating that sort of thing is for the less fit among us? Some smarty pants getting off his sick bed, binding up some broken bones and doing a ride on Fixed. Mikee did something similar to me once, I'm ploughing away doggedly uphill next to him when, while still chatting away he proceeds to ride no handed, at the same time as getting his camera out to take some snaps. I still bear the scars to this day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sunnyjim (14 Jun 2011)

PpPete said:


> Update.
> 
> Well I got all the forms from RJ&W (CTC's solicitor), got my statement all ready for the Police (using Vike's template) .... and then the Jag driver offered me a few hundred pounds, to pay for bike damage, in a private settlement. In his email to me he told me he'd been back to the scene, measured the width of the road etc,* tried to justify his actions by reference to oncoming traffic which prevented him pulling out further in overtaking me* .
> 
> I



Pity you're lawyer won't be able to read that one out in court.


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## PpPete (14 Jun 2011)

sunnyjim said:


> Pity you're lawyer won't be able to read that one out in court.



It was certainly a classic ! I just couldn't believe he was so utterly dim as to commit that one to writing... but once I re-read it a few times to be sure, expressions about "short & curlies" did spring to mind .


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## cyberknight (14 Jun 2011)

Personallywith his response of " i could not get any further over because of traffic" i would have took him to court and let the CTC lawyers eat him for breakfast ...

As long as you feel you got what you wanted then i am happy for you but letting Mr Jag pay his way from his back pocket he has learned nothing except he can buy his way out of trouble.


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## Glover Fan (14 Jun 2011)

I personally wouldn't have done the same as I have worked in the insurance industry and trust me if you knew half of what went on you'd realise this claim would be a small fish in a very large ocean.

HOWEVER, provided you have no long-term health effects i'm glad you came to an amicable conclusion.


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## numbnuts (14 Jun 2011)

nice one Pete


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## davefb (14 Jun 2011)

so he measured the road in order to show how he'd run someone off the road ?


nice of him i suppose to do your work for you...

glad its sorted and lets hope he remembers he has a boat next time he's out :-/


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## Garz (14 Jun 2011)

davefb said:


> so he measured the road in order to show how he'd run someone off the road ?
> 
> 
> nice of him i suppose to do your work for you...
> ...



+1

He probably hasn't learnt but if your on the mend and get the reimbursement of desired bike then so be it.


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