# Falling off



## lulubel (17 Sep 2012)

This might sound like a stupid question, but how common is falling of when MTBing?

I've been out for rides on 4 consecutive Sundays now, and have had (fairly minor) falls on all of them. The first was due to nerves/hesitation, I think. I'd been descending a trail that was covered with loose stones for about 3km, and I was getting tired when I came to a particularly tricky bit, and slowed down so much that the bike stopped rolling over the stones and just toppled sideways.

The second was going up a fairly steep, but quite easy stretch of trail, when I was suddenly on the ground, and still don't know quite how it happened. (I think the front wheel may have hit a small rock, and I had too much weight on my hands, so it turned sideways rather than going over it.) The third was similar to the second, but I realised it was happening in time to land gently on my hands.

Yesterday's was rather more dramatic (but still no major injuries), when I was turning on a downhill stretch with loose stones, at very low speed, and the front wheel just went sideways.

My question is, how much of this is likely to be due to my lack of skill and experience, and how much due to the knackered suspension forks?

The steering is starting to feel quite slack (best word I can think of) and I'm finding it hard to make the front wheel stick to the line I put it on. I also felt the forks bottom out yesterday, when I dropped off a rock that was probably no more than 6 inches high. When I "bounce" the forks, the movement doesn't feel smooth like it does on my OH's bike. It's jerky and erratic.

The thing is, I accept that falling off is one of those things that's going to happen when you're riding over tricky stuff, but I didn't feel like I had much control at all yesterday, and it isn't doing my confidence any good. I've decided I'm not going to go up the mountains again until I've got a new bike, but I need a bit of reassurance that it's the bike, and not just me, that's the problem.


----------



## Globalti (17 Sep 2012)

All those falls sound perfectly routine although your hesitation won't have helped. I reckon to fall off at least once on a mountain bike ride and 2-3 times on a night ride. In dozens and dozens of low-speed falls I have never hurt myself seriously though.


----------



## Friz (17 Sep 2012)

Anytime do serious offroad stuff I a.) Fall and b.) Spill blood. It's gonna happen. It keeps you on the edge and pleases the MTB Gods.


----------



## benb (17 Sep 2012)

I fall off all the time when MTB. Last time I skinned my elbow pretty badly. I've now bought some pads, and I think I'll also see if there is a training course I can do, as it's getting quite annoying.


----------



## Cubist (17 Sep 2012)

Your falls sound pretty routine. You have to learn to scrub speed off on the approach to loose stuff, but then let the bike roll its own way through, looking for braking opportunities as you can see them. Sometimes a wee bit of feathering to slow you down, but leave braking 'til you're on less loose stuff is the ideal. Big handfuls of front brake aren't helpful. 

What sort of fork is it? It sounds like it isn't set up as it should be, and if it isn't holding its line well it's either got the rebound setting too fast, or has lost it's main spring ability.


----------



## billflat12 (17 Sep 2012)

There,s lots of truth in the saying "if you think your gonna crash you will", quite simple really because you need to stay focused and relaxed over rough ground, above all keep you eyes peeled on the trail ahead and be ready to react in good time, ( this is also where bike handling skills come in ), another one is "if you never crash your not trying hard enough" check out the Pro,s on you tube for some good handling tips,
What spec bike do you use ( just because its sold as a mountain bike don,t necessarily mean it,s designed for the job in hand). you tube also has some good tutorials on fork setup which are worth watching, above all don,t let a few spills put you off and try to stay within your comfort zone until your confidence improves.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (18 Sep 2012)

Falling off is utterly unremarkable. Only crashing is noteworthy. Seriously though the odd off is normal and part of the learning process. "Heavy feet, light/soft hands, brake before and after but not during and Greg, for frick's sake keep your frickin' hand off that frickin' front brake lever or I'm gonna tape your frickin' fingers to the bar" are what I heard shouted at me when I got myself some coaching after I lost my bottle post crash.

This book, and a preparedness to practise is your friend.


----------



## lulubel (18 Sep 2012)

Thanks for the replies, guys. Like I said, the falls are pretty minor - bruises and a few scrapes. It's the increasing nerves that are bothering me more.



Cubist said:


> What spec bike do you use ( just because its sold as a mountain bike don,t necessarily mean it,s designed for the job in hand).


 
The bike is cr@p. It cost €260 from a department store. Although it is a BH, so it's a decent make, it's the cheapest in their range, and the designers probably didn't expect it to go anywhere near a mountain. I bought it to try out riding off-road and see if I liked it, and it's now done nearly 3,500km, and about 1,000km of that off-road, so every part of it is knackered. That's why I was asking how much of it is the bike making my job difficult for me.



Cubist said:


> Your falls sound pretty routine. You have to learn to scrub speed off on the approach to loose stuff, but then let the bike roll its own way through, looking for braking opportunities as you can see them. Sometimes a wee bit of feathering to slow you down, but leave braking 'til you're on less loose stuff is the ideal. Big handfuls of front brake aren't helpful


 
What do you do when you're on a steep descent, and there's nothing but loose stuff for 3km or more? And the loose stuff is mostly the size of tennis balls or bigger? You can't avoid that kind of surface here, so I need to tackle it if I want to carry on MTBing, but I do find it scary (not least because it's hard and lumpy to land on!)



GregCollins said:


> This book, and a preparedness to practise is your friend.


 
I've downloaded the sample to my Kindle - thanks - and I'll take a look.


----------



## jonny jeez (18 Sep 2012)

I hardly ever fall from the MTB. I tend to run the single track down at Bedgeburry which is fairly "gnarly" (if I'm not too old to use that adjective). But I keep it right side up pretty much every ride

I suspect I'm just not trying hard enough


----------



## CopperCyclist (18 Sep 2012)

The couple of falls I've had - and they were falls rather than crashes - were all caused by me going too slowly!

The bike handles better when rolling easily. The wheels balance better, and it skips over the terrain better. As soon as my speed and confidence increased, I had a lot less 'oh shoot' moments


----------



## GrumpyGregry (18 Sep 2012)

How much do you weigh, what tyre pressures are you running and does your fork work?

Loose stuff when I (& I suspect Cubist) use the phrase means "gravel like layers of stuff on top of hardpack" you seem to be talking about riding babies heads and rock gardens. Too much tyre pressure and/or a shot fork that packs down and runs out of travel with repeated hits and you simply bounce off the obstacles these can represent instead of rolling over them. A lot of 'out-of-the-blue' offs are down to over inflated tyres imo/ime

What is the right tyre pressure? 'bout 3psi more than the pressure you pinch flat at on any given terrain.


----------



## lulubel (18 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> How much do you weigh, what tyre pressures are you running and does your fork work?


 
I weigh 7st 5lb. Tyre pressures are soft. My OH has broken the only pump that has a pressure gauge, and I haven't replaced it yet, but I would guess less than 30psi (tyres are rated 35-65psi, but I'm pretty sure I have them under-inflated). The fork has started to feel stiff and erratic rather than smooth and bouncy, and I felt the front end drop down with a "bang" instead of a "bounce" a couple of times last Sunday.



GregCollins said:


> Loose stuff when I (& I suspect Cubist) use the phrase means "gravel like layers of stuff on top of hardpack" you seem to be talking about riding babies heads and rock gardens. Too much tyre pressure and/or a shot fork that packs down and runs out of travel with repeated hits and you simply bounce off the obstacles these can represent instead of rolling over them. A lot of 'out-of-the-blue' offs are down to over inflated tyres imo/ime


 
So, that's loose stuff. I can handle loose stuff, then. That's what counts as easy round here 

I always took rock gardens to mean big, fixed rocks that you had to either ride over or between, like some of the technical sections on the olympic MTB course, but "babies heads" seems like a very apt description, if it means loose rocks covering the whole trail, some of which are the size of babies heads!

What we get to ride on here isn't planned and designed for MTBers like a trail centre. It's just tracks that were man-made to start with, to provide vehicle access to remote properties that have now fallen into disrepair, so nature has taken charge of the tracks, and MTBers use them as playgrounds. So, you might get a track that looks perfectly innocent at both ends, but the middle is a rock garden that's filled with babies heads and doubles up as a part time river bed in the winter! It's lovely in the sense that it's natural, but it also means the difficulty level can change dramatically in a very short distance. And, since there's no plan to it, and no colour coding information to guide you on what you're about to encounter, all you can do as a beginner is look at it and think, "That line looks like it might be possible. I'll give it a go." You have no idea of _how_ difficult or otherwise it actually is. (I have followed other MTBers through tricky sections on a couple of occasions, but it's rare that there's someone to follow at just the right time.) It's fun, but can get very scary without much warning.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (18 Sep 2012)

the sort of rocks you're describing are typical of water courses and dry stream beds in summer. Great fun to ride and, while loose, not as treacherous a surface when dry as you might think.

here's the thing. I weigh twice what you do yet I'm running 35psi, so I doubt you have them under inflated to any degree, if you did you'd be snakebite/pinchflattastic

The joy of riding au naturel as opposed to trail centres - which I regard as a welcome but necessary evil in the UK - is exactly as you've described. The whole point of mtb'ing is in part that you are partaking in the synthetic risks of the theme park. "The laws of physics are merciless" as Canyon say in their manual. In nature stuff gets gnarly real fast and when it goes wrong it can go wrong badly but if you take stuff slowly at first, and ride within your braking distance on unfamiliar trails, and are prepared to screw up, dust yourself off, push the bike bike back uphill and have another go (only faster) and really commit, you'll learn.

But I really do recommend getting some coaching, from a real coach, or from a book, so you develop a set of 'tools' in your riding skills toolbook. It's much more fun than just throwing yourself on the floor in the hope something will rub off!


----------



## Cubist (18 Sep 2012)

It does sound like your fork is cattled.

Loose stuff? I was thinking of the sort of thing you find on Welsh and Scottish tracks, lumps of rock like you describe. There's a particularly horrible descent near here that is a mixture of babies' heads and half bricks. Grip is shite, and there's a bend halfway down it with a waterbar that you have to lift the wheel over. I have fallen off there more times than I care to think, each time at a different speed and the slower I go the worse it gets. I've finally cracked it htough, by feathering the brakes enough to stop teh bike running away, but not enough to drag teh back. Some weight on the front, but dropped heels and arse to keep things balanced. 

The riding you describe needs brakes that will modulate well, but you also need a fork that won't pack down and stop dead, or spit you off.


----------



## lulubel (19 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> the sort of rocks you're describing are typical of water courses and dry stream beds in summer. Great fun to ride and, while loose, not as treacherous a surface when dry as you might think.


 
Presumably dry stream beds are fairly flat, though. The tracks I'm having particular problems with are 10-20% gradient.



GregCollins said:


> here's the thing. I weigh twice what you do yet I'm running 35psi, so I doubt you have them under inflated to any degree, if you did you'd be snakebite/pinchflattastic


 
Sorry, that wasn't exactly what I meant by under inflated. I meant according to the manufacturer's specification. I know it isn't under inflated from a practical point of view until you start getting pinch flats. They have been gradually getting softer and softer as I get more confident with letting air out. Coming from a road background, my instinct is to run tyres very hard, but I quickly realised that wasn't working on the MTB. I've got to the point now where the back tyre adds about an extra quarter to its width when I put my weight in the saddle on a smooth surface.



GregCollins said:


> The joy of riding au naturel as opposed to trail centres - which I regard as a welcome but necessary evil in the UK - is exactly as you've described. The whole point of mtb'ing is in part that you are partaking in the synthetic risks of the theme park. "The laws of physics are merciless" as Canyon say in their manual. In nature stuff gets gnarly real fast and when it goes wrong it can go wrong badly but if you take stuff slowly at first, and ride within your braking distance on unfamiliar trails, and are prepared to screw up, dust yourself off, push the bike bike back uphill and have another go (only faster) and really commit, you'll learn.


 
I can definitely see the positives in trail centres from a beginner's point of view. You can pick the easy run, and know there will be nothing that's beyond your abilities. And, as you gain experience and confidence, you can move on to harder stuff without fear that you're going to find something _really_ difficult round the next bend. I wouldn't swap what I have for trail centres, though. It might be challenging and scary at times, but it's so much fun.



GregCollins said:


> But I really do recommend getting some coaching, from a real coach, or from a book, so you develop a set of 'tools' in your riding skills toolbook. It's much more fun than just throwing yourself on the floor in the hope something will rub off!


 
I've downloaded the book your recommended onto my Kindle and started reading it. I'm now going to have to go back on what I said about no more MTB rides until I have a new bike, and take my old bike on some of the easier trails that I'm most familiar with, so I can practice technique.



Cubist said:


> It does sound like your fork is cattled.


 
But the good news is, the compensation from my accident back in February has just landed in my bank account, so I'll be off to the lbs tomorrow to discuss shiny, new MTBs!



Cubist said:


> Loose stuff? I was thinking of the sort of thing you find on Welsh and Scottish tracks, lumps of rock like you describe. There's a particularly horrible descent near here that is a mixture of babies' heads and half bricks. Grip is s***e, and there's a bend halfway down it with a waterbar that you have to lift the wheel over. I have fallen off there more times than I care to think, each time at a different speed and the slower I go the worse it gets. I've finally cracked it htough, by feathering the brakes enough to stop teh bike running away, but not enough to drag teh back. Some weight on the front, but dropped heels and arse to keep things balanced.


 
That's exactly what it's like. There's one particular track that I've only done once that's like that for at least 3km (and I fell off near the bottom last time!), and I've only done it the once because it was so hard, both mentally and physically. I'm looking forward to trying it again when I get my new bike, and I've learnt a bit of proper technique.



Cubist said:


> The riding you describe needs brakes that will modulate well, but you also need a fork that won't pack down and stop dead, or spit you off.


 
I'm hoping to get Rock Shox Reba forks on my new bike, and get the nice man at the lbs to show me how to set them up correctly, since I gather it's a bit tricky. He specialises in MTBs, so I'm pretty confident that he'll know what he's doing.


----------



## Cubist (19 Sep 2012)

Rebas aren't as popular as say Fox, possibly because of image, possibly because of looks and weight,(marginal difference by the way) but trust me they are far more tuneable, easy enough to service (if you can build wheels you can strip and service a reba!) and I would choose them over an equivalent Fox any day. I like the Fox I have on the bouncer, but the Reba on the hardtail is like an old friend. Once you get it set up, which can be a bit time consuming, but worth every minute spent doing it, you'll wonder how you ever got on with an old coiler.


----------



## fossyant (20 Sep 2012)

I thought falling off MTB's at least once per ride was THE LAW !


----------



## billflat12 (20 Sep 2012)

Great new,s about the new bike , My sister started on a cheap y frame appollo ( basically a toy ) , luckily she sampled the difference by riding my kona at a local trail centre , since she bought her real bike her confidence improved almost overnight , Just be honest with yourself an chose that bike wisely for the type of riding you want to do and you,ll be fine, she did crash once after adrenaline got the better of her though , she regularly shows the "all the gear with no idea " trendies up , wants to do a local women only MTB course for some reason ?
( i can see myself crashing soon as she gets very competitive when i ride with her )


----------



## GrumpyGregry (20 Sep 2012)

lulubel said:


> Presumably dry stream beds are fairly flat, though. The tracks I'm having particular problems with are 10-20% gradient.


 
I can see why you might think that. Then I'd show you the Quantocks to dispel that idea.

Rock Shox Reba is a very good fork. rule of thumb starting point for dual air fork, 60% of your body weight in lbs popped in the top chamber as psi, 10 psi less in the bottom.


----------



## VamP (21 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> I can see why you might think that. Then I'd show you the Quantocks to dispel that idea.
> 
> Rock Shox Reba is a very good fork. rule of thumb starting point for dual air fork, 60% of your body weight in lbs popped in the top chamber as psi, 10 psi less in the bottom.


Good(ish) rule of thumb, but I (and others) go a bit plusher probably more like 45% of body weight, and then there's the school of thought that has slightly more in the bottom chamber. Weirdos.

I never bottom out BTW, and use the pop-lock as an alternative higher setting for when I want to accelerate on smooth stuff.

The lesson for OP, probably, is that there are many ways to approach the wonderful world of Reba, and I would suggest she spend some time on STW and elsewhere to get to understand the possibilities so as to be able to tailor the tuning to her riding style. Following manufacturer instructions is a recipe for disaster BTW, they want you to run them far too stiff.

Edited: to correct my sloppy use of Single Track World TLA


----------



## Cubist (21 Sep 2012)

VamP said:


> Good(ish) rule of thumb, but I (and others) go a bit plusher probably more like 45% of body weight, and then there's the school of thought that has slightly more in the bottom chamber. Weirdos.
> 
> I never bottom out BTW, and use the pop-lock as an alternative higher setting for when I want to accelerate on smooth stuff.
> 
> The lesson for OP, probably, is that there are many ways to approach the wonderful world of Reba, and I would suggest she spend some time on SWT and elsewhere to get to understand the possibilities so as to be able to tailor the tuning to her riding style. Following manufacturer instructions is a recipe for disaster BTW, they want you to run them far too stiff.


Good advice. I run my Rebas at about 33% sag on the Cube which meant a full 100mm travel at the likes of Dalby. That equated to about 80 psi against the recommended 120psi
I'm still experimenting with them set at full travel on the Cotic, they currently have 80 PSI in them, and according to my telltale cable tie I got 130mm travel out of them at Llandegla. I'm going for a bit more this weekend, and try a bit less in the negative chamber. Still not going anywhere near 120psi though, I can't compress them all the way even by sitting on the handlebars, and I ain't exactly the sugar plum fairy.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

VamP said:


> Good(ish) rule of thumb, but I (and others) go a bit plusher probably more like 45% of body weight, and then there's the school of thought that has slightly more in the bottom chamber. Weirdos.
> 
> *I never bottom out BTW*, and use the pop-lock as an alternative higher setting for when I want to accelerate on smooth stuff.
> 
> ...


 
IMNSHO that's (the bit in bold) wronger than a wrong thing. If you never ever bottom out you aren't using all your available travel innit?

STW FTW I agree and just bin the instructions for any SRAM/Avid/Rockshox kit and surf the interwebs to find out how to do it properly


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

Cubist said:


> Good advice. I run my Rebas at about 33% sag on the Cube which meant a full 100mm travel at the likes of Dalby. That equated to about 80 psi against the recommended 120psi
> I'm still experimenting with them set at full travel on the Cotic, they currently have 80 PSI in them, and according to my telltale cable tie I got 130mm travel out of them at Llandegla. I'm going for a bit more this weekend, and try a bit less in the negative chamber. Still not going anywhere near 120psi though, I can't compress them all the way even by sitting on the handlebars, and I ain't exactly the sugar plum fairy.


I was taught by someone who was once a serious national points series racer and now owns a component company that the best way to find out the right setting is to take your bike to a quiet car park on a Sunday morning and jump, and pogo, and bunnyhop the hell out of it, beat it up, until you find the point where your fork, with your weight, just bottoms out when you really really cane it hard. and then go from there. I think similar advice exists in the book I recommended to lulubel.

I also have a phobia of cable ties on air forks. I've wrecked seals that way when they have bottomed out on a big hit.


----------



## VamP (21 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> IMNSHO that's (the bit in bold) wronger than a wrong thing. If you never ever bottom out you aren't using all your available travel innit?
> 
> STW FTW I agree and just bin the instructions for any SRAM/Avid/Rockshox kit and surf the interwebs to find out how to do it properly


 

Innit 

You're right, but I am more of a XC animal, and I suspect that if I ever took the beast into proper terrain it would use ALL the travel at least once. Or twice. 

It's a 120mm fork, but I only ride 100mm terrain


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

VamP said:


> Innit
> 
> You're right, but I am more of a XC animal, and I suspect that if I ever took the beast into proper terrain it would use ALL the travel at least once. Or twice.
> 
> *It's a 120mm fork, but I only ride 100mm terrain*


Then you know you need to go faster.....


----------



## VamP (21 Sep 2012)

GregCollins said:


> Then you know you need to go faster.....


 
Thanks for pointing out the obvious Brain of Britain.  

The bike is willing, the fork is up for it, the tyres are gagging for it... the engine needs a little work.


----------



## GrumpyGregry (21 Sep 2012)

VamP said:


> Thanks for pointing out the obvious Brain of Britain.
> 
> The bike is willing, the fork is up for it, the tyres are gagging for it... the engine needs a little work.


The engine needs nowt of the sort. Just get yourself to the top of a tidy Surrey Hill and let her roll!


----------



## Licramite (17 Oct 2012)

I come off mostly through the bike stopping as it sinks - and then kealing over into 2ft of cow-s--t.
I loose it on one nasty hill near me , not on the nasty bit, but on the flat bit at the end, bike just slides away!.
harthorn hedges are my normal landing place. but only once have I gone completely over the handle bars, - nice shoulder role and stylishly back on my feet, - then hopped around and pulled out all the bramble and thorn stuck in me.
going to fast can be just as bad as going to slow. - I,m normally to scared to fall off if going fast.

I wouldn,t worry about forks bottoming out , its probably more a symptom of the track than the bike.


----------



## Licramite (17 Oct 2012)

forgot to mention - clothing - makes a big difference - you see these off roaders in shorts - they either are on drugs (arn,t we all) or unplugged thier legs from the nervouse system.
even if you don,t crash your legs get cut to bits. - well on the routes I do they do.
so long trousers - padded knees if you can, long sleeve shirts , gloves , helmet , first aid kit ,mobile phone, bike first aid kit, water. - parachute if you read these off road rider magerzines.


----------

