# Is my made-over better?



## novetan (3 Jun 2020)

I bought a foldable bike (a looked alike Brompton) in chrome finished and wish to improve on its aesthetic. Pls advise A or B


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## Specialeyes (3 Jun 2020)

A for me. Although I thought I was the world's biggest fan of tanwall tyres, they introduce a colour into B that wasn't there otherwise.

On a side note, what's the bike? It doesnt' half look like my nickel Brompton!


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## kj92 (3 Jun 2020)

novetan said:


> I bought a foldable bike (a looked alike Brompton) in chrome finished and wish to improve on its aesthetic. Pls advise A or B
> 
> View attachment 527268
> 
> ...


I'd say B, it looks awesome!


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## mickle (3 Jun 2020)

My response to the OP's question will vary depending on whether this an official Brompton licenced product or the shameless theft of Brompton's intellectual property.


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## Fab Foodie (3 Jun 2020)

A.

Where did you get the rear-rack?


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## Tenkaykev (3 Jun 2020)

I have tan wall on one of my Brommies but with the chrome I think the black goes better.
Do my eyes deceive me or is the rear triangle frame protector really held on with a couple of plastic cable (zip) ties?


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## roley poley (3 Jun 2020)

A ...... is it a Neobike ??


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Jun 2020)

A


(You should add a poll to your thread, it’ll make it easier to see the outcome.)


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## cheys03 (3 Jun 2020)

Tenkaykev said:


> Do my eyes deceive me or is the rear triangle frame protector really held on with a couple of plastic cable (zip) ties?
> For a ha'porth of tar...


Clear zip ties on a black background with the join pointing out. Sinner! 
Black tyres look good, A


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## Ming the Merciless (3 Jun 2020)

C looks good.


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## novetan (3 Jun 2020)

mickle said:


> My response to the OP's question will vary depending on whether this an official Brompton licenced product or the shameless theft of Brompton's intellectual property.



If you were to do a search, they have exhibited in the World Bike Show (I think last yr or the yr before). They have huge factory in China and South Korea that distribute to many parts of the world. Well, you can said its a copy but I didn't buy it from the thieves market. I was told Brompton patent, or design patent whatever, has expired. You can also do a search for that.


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## roley poley (3 Jun 2020)

novetan said:


> If you were to do a search, they have exhibited in the World Bike Show (I think last yr or the yr before). They have huge factory in China and South Korea that distribute to many parts of the world. Well, you can said its a copy but I didn't buy it from the thieves market. I was told Brompton patent, or design patent whatever, has expired. You can also do a search for that.


can you tell us who THEY are please to help us look it up thanks


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## novetan (4 Jun 2020)

cheys03 said:


> Clear zip ties on a black background with the join pointing out. Sinner!
> Black tyres look good, A



haha, Didn't noticed that. It comes as it is. That rubber thingy is to allowed the front tyre hook to rest to prevent the surface being scratched. I shall change to black ties.


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## novetan (4 Jun 2020)

roley poley said:


> can you tell us who THEY are please to help us look it up thanks



3sixty


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## Seevio (4 Jun 2020)

Picture A unless by some miracle tyres are available with walls in some other colour. (e.g. lime green, red etc)


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## rogerzilla (4 Jun 2020)

novetan said:


> If you were to do a search, they have exhibited in the World Bike Show (I think last yr or the yr before). They have huge factory in China and South Korea that distribute to many parts of the world. Well, you can said its a copy but I didn't buy it from the thieves market. I was told Brompton patent, or design patent whatever, has expired. You can also do a search for that.


AIUI the patents are long expired and Brompton Bicycle now uses copyright law to stop anyone selling something that looks like a Brompton. Copyright law don't mean shoot in China, tbough.

I'm on the fence with this one as I think Brompton have been milking a now very overpriced product for too long with only minimal development. Cyclescheme has enabled them to push an M3L from £500 to £1000 in ten years.


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## kj92 (4 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> AIUI the patents are long expired and Brompton Bicycle now uses copyright law to stop anyone selling something that looks like a Brompton. Copyright law don't mean shoot in China, tbough.
> 
> I'm on the fence with this one as I think Brompton have been milking a now very overpriced product for too long with only minimal development. Cyclescheme has enabled them to push an M3L from £500 to £1000 in ten years.


Although my brommie has brought me months of joy, a comment like this is making me regret getting my little bike.

*tries to reassure self that the money I paid was work it* 😂

I do want to try and find a 3sixty now and have that for my partner.


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## MichaelW2 (4 Jun 2020)

3sixty frame is supposed to be a bit bigger (longer) than the original. There is a carbon fibre folder "inspired" by the brommie style trifold. This is actually a really good use of composites to make funny shaped elements that are much lighter than they would be made of steel tubes. A bigger Brompton and an affordable lighter weight Brompton should be Brompton products.


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## FrankCrank (4 Jun 2020)

Does anyone know why Brompton charge an extra 180 beer tokens for the lacquer finish?


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## Salar (4 Jun 2020)

Picture A


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## rogerzilla (4 Jun 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> Does anyone know why Brompton charge an extra 180 beer tokens for the lacquer finish?


Probably need to prettify the brazing a bit (or pick the nicer ones off the production line) since it shows. You know the lacquered frames rust under the lacquer? Some people like the steampunk look that results.


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## FrankCrank (4 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Probably need to prettify the brazing a bit (or pick the nicer ones off the production line) since it shows. You know the lacquered frames rust under the lacquer? Some people like the steampunk look that results.


I read something of the rust issue. Maybe they should do them with designer rust already added, and charge even more


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## u_i (4 Jun 2020)

My perception of Brompton is that is an exceptionally well designed bike that works as a whole entity. When I make some modifications of my own, it usually takes several times to succeed because I miss the several steps that the Brompton designers are ahead of me. When I buy aftermarket parts for Brompton they notoriously work worse than original and sometimes plainly incapacitate the bike, again because the aftermarket designers do not really understand how Brompton is supposed to work.

Looking initially at the two photos above, I thought that the add-ons might look nice, but do they otherwise make the bike unrideable? Only a moment later I realized that the whole bike is aftermarket. How does 3sixty compare to Brompton in practice? We can only know if we have someone owning both and riding them regularly beyond the photo-op. You can copy the coarse appearance but you cannot copy the active thinking (until at least AI advances well more). Yes I have seen 3Sixty reports elsewhere, but hardly anything ever concrete.


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## Gunk (4 Jun 2020)

It’s a bike that polarises opinion, for me it looks very smart but it’s not the real thing.


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## roley poley (4 Jun 2020)

would love a go of one if they ever appear in my neck of the woods.Had a look at the ones you can see on "aliexpress"and I sure hope the welding has improved on the rear triangle since those photos were taken .Do any stockists carry these in the UK for a nosey and a gosey??


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## rogerzilla (4 Jun 2020)

B's lawyers would be on them like a ton of bricks in the UK.


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## berlinonaut (4 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I think Brompton have been milking a now very overpriced product for too long with only minimal development. Cyclescheme has enabled them to push an M3L from £500 to £1000 in ten years.


You keep saying this but it seems your memory is not correct. Looking at the price lists a M3L did cost
£391,28 in 1997
£735 in 2010 (for a key model, £765 in B-spoke version with choice of colors, with the carrier block being another £15 on both ) and
£1060 today (according to Brompton's webpage, including free color choice and combination apart from premium colors and including the carrier block)

So while there is a very recognizable rise in price it is clearly nowhere near of what you claim. Regarding the development of the bike: If I had the choice I would clearly prefer a 2020 model over a 2010 one, even at a higher price, as components have been enhanced massively. And I would not even think about a 1997 one. The interesting bit is that used 1997 models are sold in the range of what they costed new and sometimes even above that. I bet there are not too many consumer good where this is the case (don't even imagine to compare it to cars....). 

If you look at how other prices have developed over the last 10 years I'd assume Brompton's rise is not massively above that if at all. I'd hope for you that you got a pay raise as well during the last ten years...

So in reality not too much to complain about I'd assume.



rogerzilla said:


> Probably need to prettify the brazing a bit (or pick the nicer ones off the production line) since it shows. You know the lacquered frames rust under the lacquer? Some people like the steampunk look that results.


One more of the statements that seem to be based on a 15 year old state of things. Raw Laquer was introduced in 2005 and stopped in around 2008 due to the problem of underrusting (which still was only a cosmetical problem, still a pity if you pay more for the looks that then turn worse quickly...). Raw came back around 2010/2011 and while the rust issue has not been totally absent since then it has been not much of an issue. With more recent bikes I do not know a single case (while my 2015 raw model has a tiny spot which did not change in years) and as there is now additionally black laquer as well as flame laquer I'd assume the issue is long gone in the meantime.


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## u_i (5 Jun 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> There is a carbon fibre folder "inspired" by the brommie style trifold. This is actually a really good use of composites to make funny shaped elements that are much lighter than they would be made of steel tubes. A bigger Brompton and an affordable lighter weight Brompton should be Brompton products.



For Chedech there are actually reviews around and no euphoria - apparently suitable for lightweight use 

https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/1099658-what-about-chedech.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/1151489-my-chedech-carbon-brompton.html


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## FrankCrank (5 Jun 2020)

Not trying to irritate anyone here, least of all Brommie owners, but the cynic in me does sometimes come to the fore. The only bikes I see, apart from Brompton, with pressed fork dropouts, cup and ball BB's, and radially spoked front wheel are kiddies bikes in the local supermarkets. Admittedly they don't fold up small, and it's unlikely you'd want to bring one on a train or bus. Given that a Brommie costs nearly double here than the UK, it's no surprise that clones are sought. Here it is just a status symbol, a way of showing off to others, and the clever design and pedigree is of little value. Please don't shoot the messenger


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## slowmotion (5 Jun 2020)

B looks like a rather unpleasant wasp.


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## 12boy (5 Jun 2020)

My Brompton came with a cartridge BB. The radially spoked wheel works fine and stays true, at least for me. The pressed fork ends also work ok. The weak spots that bother me is the difficulty of replacing the rear triangle hinge and the seat post insert needing reaming. There's lots of improvements I can think of but I like mine a lot as is, so the weaknesses are tolerable.


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## alicat (5 Jun 2020)

A for me. Tan walls are so 1970s.


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## kj92 (5 Jun 2020)

I just wish they did tanned walls with a better grip. I'd be all over that!


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## rogerzilla (5 Jun 2020)

I've had three Bromptons and currently have an S3E-X (which started out as an S3L). The S3L cost me £550 in summer 2009 from Cyclecare Kensington. I don't know what prices were last summer but 2019 models are currently sold for £1045. I think most people would call that a doubling in ten years.

I'm no apologist for Brompton; components are cheap, many parts are poorly engineered, the paint and wheels can be absolutely terrible and they use aggressive and barely legal retail price maintenance to prevent discounting by volume sellers. There have been no significant improvements since the LWB frame was introduced in the mid-2000s. You're paying over £1000 for a hi-tensile steel frame with features that would shame some kids' bikes, as has been said above.

Despite all this, the smaller fold still makes them the best option for me and some other people. The other big advantage used to be parts availability but that's been shot to pieces recently; many parts are now dealer-fit only. That would stop me buying one now. I am quite capable of stripping and rebuilding a Brompton, and have done it to three of them. The factory assembly leaves a lot to be desired anyway. A friend has just bought a brand new one and is horrified by the state of the wheels* and the lack of grease anywhere. He wrote and complained.

*I pulled mine apart and rebuilt them in the first week


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## berlinonaut (5 Jun 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> You keep saying this but it seems your memory is not correct. Looking at the price lists a M3L did cost
> £391,28 in 1997
> £735 in 2010 (for a key model, £765 in B-spoke version with choice of colors, with the carrier block being another £15 on both ) and
> £1060 today (according to Brompton's webpage, including free color choice and combination apart from premium colors and including the carrier block)


What I totally forgot: Today's equivalent to a key model 2010 M3L regarding spec would be a B75 with mudguards and a folding pedal retrofitted - very close to the 2010 spec regarding components. The B75 is £745, the L-upgrade £60 according to the configurator and the folding pedal £32,50 at SJS. So a total of ~£845. A rise of 110£ or 15% in in cash over ten years, not even counting inflation. Not too bad in my eyes.


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## berlinonaut (5 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I've had three Bromptons and currently have an S3E-X (which started out as an S3L). The S3L cost me £550 in summer 2009 from Cyclecare Kensington.


Sounds like a steal (and way beyond list prices). But you should not forget that in 2009 we were in the middle of the big bank financial crisis and thus Brompton dealers did not sell many bikes and therefor were offering really cheap prices. So it was really an extraordinary situation. In early 2009 I bought a black 2008 S3L key model myself in London and ended up even slightly lower than you after a bit of negotiation (it was however a last year's model plus we bought more than one bike, so it was a small batch buy). Considering the excellent exchange rate back then (close to 1:1) it was a total bargain and miles below normal German prices. But 2009 has been the lowest price in decades, even regarding list prices.

As far as I know Brompton in the UK have had a small increase in price each year, small, steady and foreseable, but summing up. I have a graphic with list price development of selected Brompton models in Germany (which differs a bit from the uk) - not updated for 2020 yet:






You can see that you can be happy in the UK anyway - in Germany Brompons are recognizably more expensive and have always been. In the end it does not matter: Sales prices are based on what people are willing to pay - law of the market. Brompton sells more bikes each year and still they are continuously sold out with considerable waiting times for a new bike. So no matter what your feelings are and if you consider them to be overpriced - buyers seem to think the bike is worth the price demanded by Brompton.


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## FrankCrank (5 Jun 2020)

Just by way of clarification, does anyone know what type of BB is fitted on Brommies? I think it was Mr. Gunk's recent project that had the old cup & ball type, Mr. 12boy says his has a cartridge type. Maybe the US spec is different? 

It's interesting that Brompton were trying to break into the Asian market. I don't think they were daft enough to think folk here, in the tropics, would cycle on one to work. You'd need a shower and a change of clothes, and then there's the psycho drivers, and 3rd world road surfaces. Can only assume they were to be fashion accessories, and not multi-modal transport as designed. 
I have on a couple of occasions cycled a few miles in BKK, and if you stay on the pavements you stand some chance of getting from A to B........just try and avoid the motorcycles


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## Kell (5 Jun 2020)

Modern ones are definitely cartridge. 

Couldn't tell you what off-hand, but I replaced mine with a Shimano cartridge.


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## Kell (5 Jun 2020)

Forget the legal issues for a minute, but I prefer B.

Maybe because it reminds me of my old 1994 Orange P7 that was Nickel Plated and ran tan walls.

This one is not mine:


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## berlinonaut (5 Jun 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> Just by way of clarification, does anyone know what type of BB is fitted on Brommies? I think it was Mr. Gunk's recent project that had the old cup & ball type, Mr. 12boy says his has a cartridge type. Maybe the US spec is different?


It has been a ISO cartridge until 2013 and since then (with the spider crank) became a JIS cartridge. Cup and ball type may have been in the earlier days but should have ended way before 2000, some time in the 90ies. There is no different spec for the US and has never been. Why should it?



FrankCrank said:


> It's interesting that Brompton were trying to break into the Asian market. I don't think they were daft enough to think folk here, in the tropics, would cycle on one to work. You'd need a shower and a change of clothes, and then there's the psycho drivers, and 3rd world road surfaces. Can only assume they were to be fashion accessories, and not multi-modal transport as designed.


Historically Brompton exports about 60-70% of it's production (numbers vary between the years and around 70% being steady for the last ~15 years) and outside of the UK Benelux, Germany and Japan have been the strongest markets since the early nineties. As Brompton was not able to keep up with demand they made the license contract with Neobike in the early nineties to serve the Asian market including and beyond Japan. Neobike promised to sell 100.000s of licensed Bromptons each year (which they did not) and - apart from being cheaper and of worse build quality - stole tooling and plans after the end of the contract in 2002. Which then led to the various Brompton clones that are offered in Asia including the bike that is shown in the start posting of this thread.
For the recent years Asia has been one of the strongest growing markets for Brompton, with South Korea being in the lead. There is definitively demand and the market works somewhat differently. The gazillion of special editions is a direct result of the Asian market. Whenever a new limited edition pops up it is sold out quickly in Asia and most of the times European dealers are approached by Asians if they could deliver special edition bikes to Asia.
So no matter what you think about Brompton judging wrongly about a market potential in Asia - they have been exporting there for almost 30 years and the market is huge, strong and growing and eats up a considerable and growing amount of Bromptons production. In comparison i.e. the US are a pretty neglectable market until now, even that it has been growing in the last years.

PS: I am really wondering why there is so much speculation, smarty-pants behaving and ludicrous claims and on what foundation, - Brompton's financial statements since founding of the company are publically available and it is all written in there, year after year. The facts are available and accessibly easily - no need for false claims and speculation. Claiming obviously totally wrong things just proves those to be obviously fools and not trustworthy that do those wrong claims.


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## roley poley (5 Jun 2020)

just been looking at the OP pictures again and I have to vote A because I'm not gonna slot my brakes to fit tan wall tyres


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## berlinonaut (5 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> I'm no apologist for Brompton; components are cheap, many parts are poorly engineered, the paint and wheels can be absolutely terrible and they use aggressive and barely legal retail price maintenance to prevent discounting by volume sellers. There have been no significant improvements since the LWB frame was introduced in the mid-2000s. You're paying over £1000 for a hi-tensile steel frame with features that would shame some kids' bikes, as has been said above.


If they are so terrible - why do you have one then? I'd recommend looking less at the cost than on the value you get. As you do still own a Brompton
(and bought three in total) they cannot be that crappy (or you'd be a fool). If they are so overpriced it should be totally easy to create, build and deliver a better bike for a way lower price - astonishingly such a bike does not exist. But as you say it would be easy: Do it - you will become a rich man... 
Regarding cycle2work and the cost of the bike: What a consumer really pays is way less than the shop price with the help of cycle2work. And many sell their bikes at the end of the scheme for roughly what they really paid for it, so basically they got a free Brompton for three years (or whatever the period is) and get a fresh one after that if they like. Not too bad. 
If you buy a Brompton out of your own pocket it will loose 50-100 Pounds in value each year over the first years and less lateron. That's aboutn 1 Pound per week. Again not terribly bad if you ask me...

But I totally agree that Bromptons are expensive (even Andrew Richie is unhappy about that) and that I would also love if some things were made more sorrowfully. But it works and it works way better than the competition and lasts longer as well. So the value you get is very decent.
And I think that taking a total bargain from a exeptional situation 11 years ago as the standard to judge on pricing today is not valid and will mainly make you an unhappy man.

Out of curiousity: If your judgement on Bromptons is that harsh - what on earth is your judgement on Moultons then: With them you can choose to get an expensive bike with the cheapest components and the worst paint job on the market (TSR) or a incredibly expensive bike with midrange components or a absolutely crazy expensive bike with good, but not state of the art components for a price you could get a bunch of cars for... 



rogerzilla said:


> The other big advantage used to be parts availability but that's been shot to pieces recently; many parts are now dealer-fit only. That would stop me buying one now. I am quite capable of stripping and rebuilding a Brompton, and have done it to three of them.


It is worth noting that this policy as far as I know is only in place in the UK and nowhere else. The reason Brompton gave when inventing the policy a couple of years ago was that they want to get rid of trashed bikes that have been frankensteinized by completely idiotic and incompetent fools, are then sold in a dangerous and semidefective state and damage the image of the brand as well as potentially the health of the buyers. I cannot judge on the competence of the average UK hobby mechanic but when looking at used Bromptons from different countries those from the UK seemed to be almost always in considerable worse condition of maintenance to me. So I'd think there is at least some truth to Brompton's claim.


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## rogerzilla (5 Jun 2020)

I think they're trying to support their dealers by guaranteeing them a flow of work.

I actually do have a Moulton TSR. I traded one of the Bromptons for it. It was secondhand but only a year old. It is made from identifiable chromoly tubing (Reynolds 525) and there is a lot more brazing than on a Brompton. The paint on mine is good although generally I'm not keen on powdercoat. I don't know about component quality as the original purchaser bought it as a frameset only. It is apparently the last TSR ever sold that way; Moulton changed policy after that and will only sell complete bikes.


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## FrankCrank (5 Jun 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> It has been a ISO cartridge until 2013 and since then (with the spider crank) became a JIS cartridge. Cup and ball type may have been in the earlier days but should have ended way before 2000, some time in the 90ies. There is no different spec for the US and has never been. Why should it?
> 
> 
> Historically Brompton exports about 60-70% of it's production (numbers vary between the years and around 70% being steady for the last ~15 years) and outside of the UK Benelux, Germany and Japan have been the strongest markets since the early nineties. As Brompton was not able to keep up with demand they made the license contract with Neobike in the early nineties to serve the Asian market including and beyond Japan. Neobike promised to sell 100.000s of licensed Bromptons each year (which they did not) and - apart from being cheaper and of worse build quality - stole tooling and plans after the end of the contract in 2002. Which then led to the various Brompton clones that are offered in Asia including the bike that is shown in the start posting of this thread.
> ...


Thanks for the thorough reply. I own a Raleigh Twenty, and it has a different wheel size to those sold on the US, hence my query about possible different specs. The high end malls here are the only place I've seen Brommies for sale, and the one I go to regularly hasn't had them for the past year or so. I'm pretty sure Brommies and Thailand are not a good match, both on cost and their intended use in a tropical climate. For cooler Asian countries, such as Japan and S Korea, sure, they could be used for daily transport to and from work. I'd find it very hard to believe that sales in Thailand are growing. 

As for speculation and smarty-pants stuff, the forum is called Cycle_Chat_, and everyone's entitled to play Devil's Advocate if they so wish


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## berlinonaut (5 Jun 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> The high end malls here are the only place I've seen Brommies for sale, and the one I go to regularly hasn't had them for the past year or so. I'm pretty sure Brommies and Thailand are not a good match, both on cost and their intended use in a tropical climate. For cooler Asian countries, such as Japan and S Korea, sure, they could be used for daily transport to and from work. I'd find it very hard to believe that sales in Thailand are growing.



I had read somewhere information about Bropton's growth strategy in Asia but cannot remember the exact source and it was a couple of years ago anyway. Thailand has for a long time not appeared on that map for various reasons and - as far as I can judge - is not really relevant until today. Japan was strong since the 90ies already, South Korea, Singapore and Indonesia came in some time around 2010ish. China has been a market they wanted to conquer in the recent years but, as far as I can judge, until now with little success (but those things take time). Brompton has a subsidiary in Hongkong that does the distribution part for Asia. With the financial numbers of that plus the percentage of sales going to Asia, both from the finacial statements, and addinonally some other info one gets a not too vague picture of what is going on. 




FrankCrank said:


> As for speculation and smarty-pants stuff, the forum is called Cycle_Chat_, and everyone's entitled to play Devil's Advocate if they so wish


That's for sure and I do not expect everybody to go through 40+ years of financial statementes before posting - but personally I consider it a difference if someone says "I wonder if or why this and that" "I think or believe this and that" or "this and that ist fact" (w/o any foundation apart from personal belief that may even be founded on ignorance) "and this means everybody at Brompton is a bloody incompetent idiot." They claim that Asia is growing and this is untrue because I was/live there and cannot believe that there are many Bromptons sold and Brompton should know that. This kind of statements is as wrong as unnecessary and unhelpful and fosters the image of forums as a totally unreliable source of information. Some guy invented the phrase "alternative facts" for that. In other words: Speculate as much as you wish, but if you want to do me a favor make clear when you speculate and don't sell your speculations as facts.


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## Sharky (5 Jun 2020)

Is B done with photoshop?


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## roley poley (5 Jun 2020)

Sharky said:


> Is B done with photoshop?


I am fairly sure it is as you can see how it looks before you buy it which was the OPs aim he just didn't include the brake calipers for the visual effect


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## Gunk (5 Jun 2020)

alicat said:


> A for me. Tan walls are so 1970s.



that’s why I love them!


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## FrankCrank (6 Jun 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> I had read somewhere information about Bropton's growth strategy in Asia but cannot remember the exact source and it was a couple of years ago anyway. Thailand has for a long time not appeared on that map for various reasons and - as far as I can judge - is not really relevant until today. Japan was strong since the 90ies already, South Korea, Singapore and Indonesia came in some time around 2010ish. China has been a market they wanted to conquer in the recent years but, as far as I can judge, until now with little success (but those things take time). Brompton has a subsidiary in Hongkong that does the distribution part for Asia. With the financial numbers of that plus the percentage of sales going to Asia, both from the finacial statements, and addinonally some other info one gets a not too vague picture of what is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> That's for sure and I do not expect everybody to go through 40+ years of financial statementes before posting - but personally I consider it a difference if someone says "I wonder if or why this and that" "I think or believe this and that" or "this and that ist fact" (w/o any foundation apart from personal belief that may even be founded on ignorance) "and this means everybody at Brompton is a bloody incompetent idiot." They claim that Asia is growing and this is untrue because I was/live there and cannot believe that there are many Bromptons sold and Brompton should know that. This kind of statements is as wrong as unnecessary and unhelpful and fosters the image of forums as a totally unreliable source of information. Some guy invented the phrase "alternative facts" for that. In other words: Speculate as much as you wish, but if you want to do me a favor make clear when you speculate and don't sell your speculations as facts.


Wow - get over yourself fella. You'll be saying I'm the expat equivalent of Trump next...........I speculate. 
You sound as though you're under the impression Brompton have made great inroads into the Thai bike market, but my eyes are telling me a different story - I know which one I believe. If you've ever cycled anywhere in Thailand, or other SE Asia countries, you'll see there's a fundamental flaw in marketing a multi-modal (very expensive) bike as a viable means of everyday transport. I speculate that locally made clones would fare much better, but only as status symbols, and only at a reasonable price. You may disagree with this, I care not, you're entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine.


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## u_i (6 Jun 2020)

berlinonaut said:


> For the recent years Asia has been one of the strongest growing markets for Brompton, with South Korea being in the lead. There is definitively demand and the market works somewhat differently. The gazillion of special editions is a direct result of the Asian market. Whenever a new limited edition pops up it is sold out quickly in Asia and most of the times European dealers are approached by Asians if they could deliver special edition bikes to Asia.
> So no matter what you think about Brompton judging wrongly about a market potential in Asia - they have been exporting there for almost 30 years and the market is huge, strong and growing and eats up a considerable and growing amount of Bromptons production. In comparison i.e. the US are a pretty neglectable market until now, even that it has been growing in the last years.



In S Korean city environment, I would see Bromptons on a daily basis. In Japan they are there, though difficult to fish out of the myriad of mamachari. While I spent just one day in Taiwan I managed to see several Bromptons during that time. In China, I think the customer base is that of kids of rich parents. Everyday commuting is dominated by practical but klutzy electric bikes. In Vietnam there are hardly any bikes visible in the streets - all motorbikes. In the US the growth is steady, far away from market saturation, just from people discussing the bikes, buying them and the number of venues selling Bromptons growing. From my observations, the Eastern European market started finally picking up. There is quite a bit of room for growth even on British Isles. During several days in Dublin, we saw no Bromptons other than our own. Even in England, away from London, I would be stopped in the street with people asking about the bike.


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## berlinonaut (6 Jun 2020)

u_i said:


> In the US the growth is steady, far away from market saturation, just from people discussing the bikes, buying them and the number of venues selling Bromptons growing.


With the former distributor retiring Brompton invested heavily in growth of the US market. Channel Wasson, the former and initial distributor since the mid nineties, handled Bromptons very professionally but more as a side business for him as far as I know, not following a massive growth strategy. Now Brompton have a daughter company in the US that is responsible for the distribution, they do marketing, they onboard more and more dealers and they also did a deal with REI to sell certain Brompton models in their shops. Possibly also the attitude of people in the US towards cycling has changed (as it has in wider parts of the western world over the last years) and Brompton profits from that. So there is still huge potential for growth I'd assume even that they do already sell way more there than they used to.


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## novetan (6 Jun 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> I read something of the rust issue. Maybe they should do them with designer rust already added, and charge even more



Reminded me of Tuff Kote used in car 10 yrs ago where cars were prone to rust. Are they still ard?


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## novetan (6 Jun 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> 3sixty frame is supposed to be a bit bigger (longer) than the original. There is a carbon fibre folder "inspired" by the brommie style trifold. This is actually a really good use of composites to make funny shaped elements that are much lighter than they would be made of steel tubes. A bigger Brompton and an affordable lighter weight Brompton should be Brompton products.



No, its almost exactly the same size after comparing with my friend's brommie. Using just measuring tape without any hi-tech laser instrument, its abt +/- 1mm


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## novetan (6 Jun 2020)

u_i said:


> My perception of Brompton is that is an exceptionally well designed bike that works as a whole entity. When I make some modifications of my own, it usually takes several times to succeed because I miss the several steps that the Brompton designers are ahead of me. When I buy aftermarket parts for Brompton they notoriously work worse than original and sometimes plainly incapacitate the bike, again because the aftermarket designers do not really understand how Brompton is supposed to work.
> 
> Looking initially at the two photos above, I thought that the add-ons might look nice, but do they otherwise make the bike unrideable? Only a moment later I realized that the whole bike is aftermarket. How does 3sixty compare to Brompton in practice? We can only know if we have someone owning both and riding them regularly beyond the photo-op. You can copy the coarse appearance but you cannot copy the active thinking (until at least AI advances well more). Yes I have seen 3Sixty reports elsewhere, but hardly anything ever concrete.



The real diff is the suspension block changing to a spring. Tyres are tyres. Diff is only the branding and type of threading. In what way you reckoned is unrideable. You are thinking too much. No offence. 

My 3sixty is 3 sp using Sturmey Archer grp set which to me is the most impt elements. The ride is smooth with no cranky sound. Yesterday I just did a climb of 9 to 10%. Exhausted though. I'm totally happy with my purchase. So the bike is performing as it shld be.


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## novetan (6 Jun 2020)

BTW, thks so much everyone for the feedback. Very much appreciated. The general consensus is option A. I'm taking a minimalist approach and has already ordered the parts. Here's my version. I do believed less is more. I'm still working on the rack wheels where I hv 2 options. But I'm in no hurry to decide at this moment. 

Btw,I hv little knowledge in metallurgy. Does chroming onto a chromoly steel make it less rust prone? What if it rust. How can I rectified? If it is painted at least it can touch up.


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## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2020)

Chroming protects against rust from the outside (for a while) but embrittles the steel. Also, the chroming process involves a lot of polishing, which removes material. It's expensive and best avoided really.


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## u_i (6 Jun 2020)

novetan said:


> The real diff is the suspension block changing to a spring. Tyres are tyres. Diff is only the branding and type of threading. In what way you reckoned is unrideable. You are thinking too much. No offence.



By Brompton becoming unrideable with replacement parts, I mean gear getting stuck in one position, chain jumping out of the tensioner and quitting to engage cogs, hinge clamp bolts snapping during the ride, etc. Not sure how my thinking needs to go to any overload here.



novetan said:


> My 3sixty is 3 sp using Sturmey Archer grp set which to me is the most impt elements. The ride is smooth with no cranky sound. Yesterday I just did a climb of 9 to 10%. Exhausted though. I'm totally happy with my purchase. So the bike is performing as it shld be.



Thanks, sounds good. Obviously a $40 folder from a Chinese supermarket will also perform at some level. There are many subtelties involved and price-performance relation is in no way linear but overall it is good to hear that it does what you need it for and are happy.


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## novetan (6 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> Chroming protects against rust from the outside (for a while) but embrittles the steel. Also, the chroming process involves a lot of polishing, which removes material. It's expensive and best avoided really.



Is it too naive to ask, so is painting or chroming more durable. Ok I understand many stages are involved. Degree of preparation, coating thickness etc etc. So lets assumed each type meets the basic preparation and min allowable thickness under BS or ASTM, which is more durable?


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## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2020)

I wouldn't know that. Chrome is much harder to scratch but eventually it does get rust under it.


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## roley poley (6 Jun 2020)

u_i said:


> By Brompton becoming unrideable with replacement parts, I mean gear getting stuck in one position, chain jumping out of the tensioner and quitting to engage cogs, hinge clamp bolts snapping during the ride, etc. Not sure how my thinking needs to go to any overload here.
> 
> That's quite worrying U-I especially hinge clamp bolt snapping as I feel mine are due for replacement after 18 years service and don't want this critical part to fail ON ANYONE.... you mention aftermarket parts ..are they from Brompton ? Did you complain ? Rogerzilla also mentions poorly assembled and non lube in this thread so what is happening to quality control overall ....(sorry if I have gone off topic a bit but it is a safety issue pull me back in line any time you like )


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## FrankCrank (6 Jun 2020)

As clones have been mentioned, here's one I spotted for sale over this way





And a link here: https://www.lazada.co.th/products/la-bicycle-folding-bike-neo-stage-203-16-3-speed-i128103255-
s135297171.html?spm=a2o4m.searchlist.list.1.602810b4yb8oEL&search=1

Is it a viable contender? - I'll let you decide.


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## roley poley (6 Jun 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> As clones have been mentioned, here's one I spotted for sale over this way
> View attachment 527899
> 
> And a link here: https://www.lazada.co.th/products/la-bicycle-folding-bike-neo-stage-203-16-3-speed-i128103255-
> ...


looked it up and the auto translate for the reviews is a scream best chuckle I have for days and if you are a Thai reading the Brompton site I hope your auto translate does the same for you


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## u_i (6 Jun 2020)

roley poley said:


> That's quite worrying U-I especially hinge clamp bolt snapping as I feel mine are due for replacement after 18 years service and don't want this critical part to fail ON ANYONE.... you mention aftermarket parts ..are they from Brompton ? Did you complain ? Rogerzilla also mentions poorly assembled and non lube in this thread so what is happening to quality control overall ....(sorry if I have gone off topic a bit but it is a safety issue pull me back in line any time you like )



No, none of these replacement parts were from Brompton, but the above have been quite typical experiences when diving into parts that others manufactured for Brompton. I just mention this to illuminate the issue that when you operate within the realm of relatively safe environment of responsible manufacturing and look at other options that look shiny and are more lightweight and maybe cheaper, you think why not, but they can turn quite sour in practice. I speak up after losing my own money to gain these experiences. 

Are all aftermarket parts bad? No, but you roll the dice when you go there. Most are actually more expensive than the original, claiming to be superior. This is not the case with 3Sixty - their products usually cost similar. I once wrote to them asking whether the particular component is supposed to work better and they wrote back that just about the same. I.e., at least they did not make inflated claims, but I have not tried anything from them in practice. Am I eager to do so? Not really, but I will gladly hear about experiences of others there, particularly about practical everyday use - very bad associations there with Facebook photos in the context of the aftermarket parts.


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## rogerzilla (6 Jun 2020)

The only aftermarket replacement mine has is the saddle and the front hub, because you can't get cheesier than the standard hub. Mine was even drilled eccentrically so the flanges visibly wobbled (it was still possible to build a true wheel!).


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## FrankCrank (7 Jun 2020)

roley poley said:


> looked it up and the auto translate for the reviews is a scream best chuckle I have for days and if you are a Thai reading the Brompton site I hope your auto translate does the same for you


Thai is one of the more difficult languages for translation software. The bike itself, on the surface anyways, looks to be a bargain for around 150 quid, but without proper reviews in English it would be gamble purchase.


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## Gunk (7 Jun 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> The only aftermarket replacement mine has is the saddle and the front hub, because you can't get cheesier than the standard hub. Mine was even drilled eccentrically so the flanges visibly wobbled (it was still possible to build a true wheel!).



The only cheap Chinese bit on mine is the £7 luggage block which seems to be fine. The Chinese stuff is a gamble and some of it is shocking quality whilst some of it is OK, the problem is that none of it has a quality stamp such as the German TÜV standard and most of it wouldn’t meet the UK BS-EN standard. So would I want a shiny Chinese main hinge bolt on my Brompton, no thanks.


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## Kell (8 Jun 2020)

I think with all those replacement/non-OEM parts you have to decide whether or not to buy based on what role they play.

Hinge bolts and the like I would definitely not go after-market, but shiny bits that would not have an impact on me or the bike if they failed, maybe.

I've changed a few things on my bike, but most have been for different Brompton parts. The exceptions being the handle bars (Ritchey) and the pedals (Shimano) - both companies I trust. Probably more so than Brompton if I'm honest.


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## Kell (10 Jun 2020)

FrankCrank said:


> As clones have been mentioned, here's one I spotted for sale over this way
> View attachment 527899
> 
> And a link here: https://www.lazada.co.th/products/la-bicycle-folding-bike-neo-stage-203-16-3-speed-i128103255-
> ...



I would say that such a slack head angle means it would feel very short when ridden. I can imagine my knees hitting the handlebars on that. Even the modern, longer Bromptons feel short - that looks ridiculously so. 

Having said that, it may be more suited to smaller people.


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