# Women's inclusion in cycling clubs



## fair weather cyclist (16 Nov 2021)

Are your cycling clubs dealing with this and, if they are, how?

Cycling has always been male dominated. There's very little doubt about that. A lot of clubs seem to be talking a lot about inclusion and how much they want to increase the number of female members. Which is great, only to find out that at the end of the day, they don't do much at all.

Recently my partner started to get interested in cycling and she was so happy when she found out about an initiative from a local cycling club aimed at beginner female cyclists. Big social media announcements, very promising statements and good intentions. All seemed promising and interesting.

Anyways, she got disappointed straightaway when all this club was doing was:
- just inviting female riders to the usual 50-60 miles weekend social rides (not easy if you are a beginner)
- talking shite and showcase some of the worst examples of toxic masculinity I've seen on the club's series of zwift challenges

Is this just a case of a particularly bad club or do you guys find the same situation in general?


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## DCLane (16 Nov 2021)

I went along one evening to my club's weekly get-together. Sat at one table were several unknown ladies plus one club member. They had come to see the club committee because they'd felt uncomfortable at a few local clubs. Basically they wanted a ladies section, their own kit and to organise their own rides. Male members could come along but they would lead it. Oh, and they brought cake 

Fast forward five years and we have a thriving ladies section, many of whom have also brought along their partners. They're now a core part of the club, with ladies riding in their own rides and also the main club rides. We've ladies who were really nervous at the start have come on massively to become ride leaders and some to race. They still bring cake to club nights, together with additional non-bike training sessions the club would never have considered running.

A few of the club members couldn't cope with this; and they've left. We're probably better as a club without them.


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## neil_merseyside (16 Nov 2021)

I don't know where you are but locally in the Wirral area we have Bicycle Belles a ladies only once a month for those starting out ~20 miles, but also Wirral Cycling Group has a large female contingent and a huge ride program, regular newcomers 20m monthly ish. If you want faster then the main group have longer/faster weekly, or further afield Chester Fabulous Ladies are fast(er). Local CTC group 2Mills haven't recovered from C19 shutdown yet but also has many lady members. Locally we also have several road clubs, one has a ladies section but mandate clip pedals and drop bars so perhaps too intense (PSW). 
Lots of men don't like (testerone fuelled) road clubs either, I suspect every sport has toxic clubs.


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## cougie uk (16 Nov 2021)

I passed a womens club out by Frodsham the other week. I forget the name but they had cool kit. 

In my old club women weren't even allowed to join until the 80s ! How mad is that ?


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## oldwheels (16 Nov 2021)

Being a small local club we had a mixed membership with no problems. We did mostly forestry tracks and some trails we constructed ourselves well off road. The emphasis seems to have shifted to road bikes and I no longer attend such things being too unfit. On my trike rides I have been passed by some young ladies who were travelling pretty fast so I reckon they could hold their own on any road trips.


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## matticus (16 Nov 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Lots of men don't like (testerone fuelled) road clubs either


This.

(It's come up in many similar discussion elsewhere!)


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## I like Skol (16 Nov 2021)

DCLane said:


> A few of the club members couldn't cope with this; and they've left.


It's unfortunate, but there are still a lot of unpleasant dinosaurs around.

Perhaps a more positive position from the club's perspective rather than hoping these people leave would be to try and help them correct their views, and if that doesn't work then show them the door?


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## All uphill (16 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> This.
> 
> (It's come up in many similar discussion elsewhere!)


I'm an old white male who has left quite a few organisations over the years, because I couldn't put up with their exclusion of anyone unlike themselves.

One memorable ride included a person with a disability on a recumbent; the ride leader managed, within a mile, to find three obstacles that the recumbent couldn't negotiate!

Nasty. 

When I challenged the leader I was told that I didn't have to go out with them either. So I don't.


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## Profpointy (16 Nov 2021)

All uphill said:


> I'm an old white male who has left quite a few organisations over the years, because I couldn't put up with their exclusion of anyone unlike themselves.
> 
> One memorable ride included a person with a disability on a recumbent; the ride leader managed, within a mile, to find three obstacles that the recumbent couldn't negotiate!
> 
> ...



'kinell, if that was motivated by sheer spite as you imply that is bizarre indeed, never mind horrible


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## DCLane (16 Nov 2021)

@cougie uk - there's Queensbury QOM in West Yorkshire. Nice kit and a well-organised ladies club.



I like Skol said:


> Perhaps a more positive position from the club's perspective rather than hoping these people leave would be to try and help them correct their views, and if that doesn't work then show them the door?



They tried the first and had to do the second with at least one member.


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## mjr (16 Nov 2021)

oldwheels said:


> Being a small local club we had a mixed membership with no problems. We did mostly forestry tracks and some trails we constructed ourselves well off road. The emphasis seems to have shifted to road bikes and I no longer attend such things being too unfit. On my trike rides I have been passed by some young ladies who were travelling pretty fast so I reckon they could hold their own on any road trips.


This, although the road bikes and e bikes don't appear in great number on shorter rides. Last ride was balanced but it varies.

I think it's mostly older BC clubs that have problems, with their "women do the teas and cakes in the hall" attitude. I'm a bit sick of them setting up new "ladies" groups and trying to lure riders from existing groups, thereby creating imbalance where there was none, while still not correcting the imbalance in their own club because the "ladies" aren't regarded as full members! And then I read that some of their ride leaders are "honorary ladies" and I don't mean non-binary...


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## Kingfisher101 (16 Nov 2021)

A lot of women I know are too fast for the main clubs never mind the 20 mile social ride etc. They tend to ride with friends/partners etc and do big days of 100 plus miles etc.


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## steveindenmark (16 Nov 2021)

I like ultra distance rides. The whole ethos behind it is that we are all in the same boat together. It makes no difference if you are 16 or 60, man or woman. We are all going to get cold, wet and knackered. Everyone is on the same level playing field. Nobody gets an advantage. Wow there are some tough women out there, who can make it look easy. But women do not need men to start any type of club. They are far better it than the guys.


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## fair weather cyclist (16 Nov 2021)

Very interesting insights from everyone. Thanks, really appreciate it.

Sounds like this particular club is just full of bad apples (I'm in the Edinburgh and Lothians area).

I'm waiting for my partner to get more into cycling, then I'll try to convince her to start her own club with other like minded people


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## DCLane (16 Nov 2021)

@fair weather cyclist - calling @Pat "5mph" and her 'Belles on Bikes': https://www.cyclinguk.org/project/belles-on-bikes

I'm guessing the group already exists


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## matticus (16 Nov 2021)

DCLane said:


> They still bring cake to club nights, together with additional *non-bike training* sessions


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## Dogtrousers (16 Nov 2021)

I can only speak from (good) experience of one club, and from a male perspective. 

First of all, if she experienced "toxic masculinity" I'd say: Bad club. Don't go back and if you feel like it drop a note with an explanation of why not to the club sec.

Second, _"just inviting female riders to the usual 50-60 miles weekend social rides (not easy if you are a beginner)"_. That's an indication that they are unwelcoming to beginners of either sex. Again I'd say bad club. Or at very best, inappropriate club for a beginner. It also sounds like a very small club if they only run one ride of one length and one pace.

I'd advise your wife to think carefully about what she wants from a club in terms of rides - and look for a club that advertises an appropriate rides at an appropriate pace.

Next I'd look over their website and any associated social media to try to get a feel for the culture of the club. For example do they have a published diversity & discrimination policy? Do they have an induction process to help new joiners to discuss their aims? Drop them an email to discuss before turning up.

Lastly I can say from my own experience that there are clubs (or at least one club of which I was a member) out there with a significant (although quite a small minority) female membership, and that run rides suitable for a wide range of abilities. Obviously I can only speak from a male experience and maybe their female membership would have been bigger if they had done some things (that didn't occur to me) differently.


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## Profpointy (16 Nov 2021)

Whilst I only went along once, and that is no reflection on the group as they were very friendly and welcoming, my local CTC lot were great and seemed to have as many ladies as blokes, and a fair spread of ages, fitness, sportiness and included a few who looked like they'd toured round europe or further. It was advertised as "slow" or maybe "slow-medium" and they stuck to a steady pace and one or two less than athletic ladies on shopping bikes could keep up and were never made to feel they were holding the group up ... and there were people there of both sexes who could doubtless have rattled off twice the miles in half the time, but they didn't because that wasn't the planned nor advertised pace. The club did fast rides and hell-for-leather rides too, but they were advertised as such. Anyhow, a more friendly or inclusive group you couldn't hope to meet - so if your local CTC group are anything like this Bristol gang, give em a go


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## Pat "5mph" (16 Nov 2021)

DCLane said:


> @fair weather cyclist - calling @Pat "5mph" and her 'Belles on Bikes': https://www.cyclinguk.org/project/belles-on-bikes
> 
> I'm guessing the group already exists


The Glasgow Belles folded (I got sick, couldn't ride, no other takers for leading), but the Edinburgh Belles are still going strong, afaik.


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## derrick (16 Nov 2021)

We are all inclusive, plenty of women riding and racing in our club, The ladies organise a ladies only ride once a month, to attract more women. They have joined in the 200 mile challenges, and completed them. We have ladies on the committee. Club is rolling along nicely.
We ride as one.


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## fair weather cyclist (17 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Second, _"just inviting female riders to the usual 50-60 miles weekend social rides (not easy if you are a beginner)"_. That's an indication that they are unwelcoming to beginners of either sex. Again I'd say bad club. Or at very best, inappropriate club for a beginner. It also sounds like a very small club if they only run one ride of one length and one pace.



I agree, from what my partner told me and from what I've read on the club facebook page, it didn't sound like they were very welcoming to beginners. Unfortunately, it is not a small club, I'd say it's got more than 100 members. They don't run only one ride, recently they've been running 3 rides every weekend:
- a gravel ride
- the A ride, 50-60 miles sometimes longer at 18-19mph
- the B ride, the one for beginners, same route so 50-60 miles but at 15-16mph

My partner joined the B ride once, could keep up ok in the first half but then obviously as a novice who had never done more than 35 miles, she was cooked. Her legs were fried for a couple of days and she was mortified because she couldn't keep up and felt guilty because the group had to wait for her on a few occasions (some of them didn't even wait and went their own way, which is also garbage).

Hasn't been out on the bike since but she's doing fine on the turbo trainer. I look forward to go out on a ride with her in the spring 😄


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## fair weather cyclist (17 Nov 2021)

Pat "5mph" said:


> The Glasgow Belles folded (I got sick, couldn't ride, no other takers for leading), but the Edinburgh Belles are still going strong, afaik.


Thanks, that's interesting. I'll let my partner know about the Edinburgh Belles.


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## T4tomo (17 Nov 2021)

There are a lot of "Breeze" groups around aren't they that are women only regular organised rides. Like a cycling club, but without all the politics and talking shoot in the church hall.


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## Dogtrousers (17 Nov 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> - the B ride, the one for *beginners*, same route so 50-60 miles but at *15-16mph*



Must have a different definition of "beginner" to me.

Just speaking personally I would be dropped before they got half a mile down the road. I've seen similar rides advertised by clubs near me and just written the clubs off as "not for the likes of me".


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## fair weather cyclist (17 Nov 2021)

I know, I've been cycling for a couple of years and I'd just quite manage to keep that pace for 50 miles.

Looking at my stats when I started, I was going at 13-14mph, that seems more beginner friendly


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## Dogtrousers (17 Nov 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> I know, I've been cycling for a couple of years and I'd just quite manage to keep that pace for 50 miles.
> 
> Looking at my stats when I started, I was going at 13-14mph, that seems more beginner friendly


Lower! Lower!


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## Dogtrousers (17 Nov 2021)

I met some guys from a local club on an Audax once. They were very keen for me to join and told me what a great club it was. I'm sure it was a great club but I looked at their website and the rides were all way too fast for me, so clearly not my kind of club. Nothing wrong with it, just not for me.

So why were they so keen for me to join? I think I figured it out ...They wanted my Audax points. Crafty buggers.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2021)

T4tomo said:


> There are a lot of "Breeze" groups around aren't they that are women only regular organised rides. Like a cycling club, but without all the politics and talking shoot in the church hall.


That's the BC funding for the non-membership rides co-led by "honorary ladies" that I posted about earlier. As it recruits from non-BC groups, I bet they count the women as "new/restarting cyclists" and it looks wonderful on paper for BC while practically doing little to rebalance existing BC clubs or increase numbers cycling.

On the speed thing: one ride might not mean a small club, but one that prefers to stick together or one that lacks enough volunteers to run more. And I believe ours plans for 10mph including short stops on most rides, as it is often 11 or 12 but can be 6 if you end up grinding across fen into headwinds.


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## matticus (17 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Must have a different definition of "beginner" to me.
> 
> Just speaking personally I would be dropped before they got half a mile down the road. I've seen similar rides advertised by clubs near me and just written the clubs off as "not for the likes of me".


Depends so much on the terrain. My club can do rides either pan-flat, or verging on Quite Hilly.

Mr Trousers you must be able to average 12mph over mixed terrain to complete long audaxes in time. Unless you only ride pan-flat events? (I need more data Sir! ) 15mph in a bunch on the flat really isn't much different in power output.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> Mr Trousers you must be able to average 12mph over mixed terrain to complete long audaxes in time. Unless you only ride pan-flat events? (I need more data Sir! ) 15mph in a bunch on the flat really isn't much different in power output.


Firstly, Audax UK uses a minimum speed of 10-12.5km/h for BPs, 15km/h for short BRs falling to 8⅓kph for long ones, and 12.5km/h for RMs, so the fastest minimum is less than 10mph so why "must be able to average 12mph"? https://audax.uk/about-audax/classifications/

Secondly, 15mph requires 68% more power than 12mph according to bikecalculator.com. I'd call that pretty different. As for "in a bunch" making it easier, I think it'd be 25% more power required even with perfect slipstreaming, and it wouldn't save that much because only a fool would ride in an unknown group without safe stopping distance in front of them (I definitely wouldn't, based on some of the awful cyclecraft I've seen from road clubs around here), plus that might not even be a gain because I think we don't know if DT rides audaxes alone or in small groups anyway.


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## yello (17 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> so why "must be able to average 12mph"



To give decent time for cake eating? Any true audaxer knows that!


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## ebikeerwidnes (17 Nov 2021)

Personally I have no interest in a group ride witha speed of 15 mph plus

My cycling is basically wandering around the countryside on my ebike so I can look at teh scenery, birds, animals and all that stuff

If I could fine a group that wanted the same thing (with or without motors) then I would love to give it a go - whether it is mainly women or men is not something I am really bothered about
Stops for tea and cake would also be a nice addition!!!

I have never heard of any like that near me - nor do I really know how to look other than a quick DuckDuckGo of it

I am not surprised that a lot of people say there is a lot of clubs that don;t really welcome female riders - I have seen the same in sailing clubs over the years = one place had a female member ship fee at 50% of the main member ship fee (see the concept there??) but they were 'expected' to lend a hand for the 'after sail' cakes and tea every weekend and very few, if any, women actually sailed.
Still - the cakes were nice!


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## matticus (17 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> Firstly, Audax UK uses a minimum speed of 10-12.5km/h for BPs, 15km/h for short BRs falling to 8⅓kph for long ones, and 12.5km/h for RMs, so the fastest minimum is less than 10mph so why "must be able to average 12mph"? https://audax.uk/about-audax/classifications/
> 
> Secondly, 15mph requires 68% more power than 12mph according to bikecalculator.com. I'd call that pretty different. As for "in a bunch" making it easier, I think it'd be 25% more power required even with perfect slipstreaming, and it wouldn't save that much because only a fool would ride in an unknown group without safe stopping distance in front of them (I definitely wouldn't, based on some of the awful cyclecraft I've seen from road clubs around here), plus that might not even be a gain because I think we don't know if DT rides audaxes alone or in small groups anyway.


This is barely worth answering, but anyway:
- Mr Trousers has completed events at the 15kph limit - the other stuff you quote is a distraction.
- No need to quote URLs - Mr Trousers and I both know the rules.
- If you average 15kph moving, you will not be validated, as you need some time for stops. Then add in some contingency - experienced riders are likely to finish most events with at least some time in hand. This is basic stuff!

And finally, the biggest factor - which I think I mentioned twice? - is terrain. Makes a huge difference to average moving speeds.

EDIT: this is a pointless argument, as we're talking about basically ONE rider and Cyclechat member! Irrelevant to the topic at hand.


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## matticus (17 Nov 2021)

p.s. you'll have to take my word for the 12mph ( -vs 10mph) thing - plenty of riders more experienced than me have come up with this estimate, it's not based on any equations, and I won't be giving you a citation. Please just listen to someone that has ridden a few audaxes, eh?


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Nov 2021)

Always amuses me that the advertised average speed goes up as the distance goes up. No one runs a marathon faster than their 5k pace. Why is it in cycling clubs they seem to think longer distance merits trying to go faster.

A lot of led rides I’ve been on also seem to have no contingency for mechanicals / punctures. They haven’t thought about how the route can be shortened as necessary so the ride gets back by the advertised time.

i have started leading some rides in my local ctc at the longer distances but a slower pace of 11 mph. Introducing some riders to longer rides without demanding they up their pace as well. Maybe in spring I’ll up the average, but it’s a nice sociable pace for the winter months.


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## fair weather cyclist (17 Nov 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Personally I have no interest in a group ride witha speed of 15 mph plus
> 
> My cycling is basically wandering around the countryside on my ebike so I can look at teh scenery, birds, animals and all that stuff



Same here.

I do most of my cycling training in the shape of structured workouts on trainerroad/zwift.

I ride outdoors only to have fun, breathe in some fresh air, and as a form or "endurance" workouts when speed doesn't matter; the only thing that matters is logging in the miles and try to keep my heart rate in zone 1-2.

I'd never join a club where I'd need to crank it up and sweat my ass off at 9am on a Sunday


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## matticus (17 Nov 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Always amuses me that the advertised average speed goes up as the distance goes up. No one runs a marathon faster than their 5k pace. Why is it in cycling clubs they seem to think longer distance merits trying to go faster.


Yes, that seems to be an ever-present psychology of cycling clubs!
Completely at odds with distance riding. perhaps this is why "MAMIL" clubs aren't great nurserys for Audaxers ... !


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## DCLane (17 Nov 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Always amuses me that the advertised average speed goes up as the distance goes up. No one runs a marathon faster than their 5k pace. Why is it in cycling clubs they seem to think longer distance merits trying to go faster.



Because they're aiming these at 'stronger' riders.

Similar to the op's better half I've had problems finding a local group for my son to ride with. My club's 17-18mph average 'fast' ride is too slow. Other groups and clubs won't take him because he's under 18 and/or their riders might be embarrassed (according to one response  ).

It took one of his ex-coaches asking very nicely to the leader of another club's 20+ mph fast group to get a ride. Needless to say he went, coped fine, and has joined them as a thank-you. He takes a parental consent form with him and the ride leader has my contact details.


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## I like Skol (17 Nov 2021)

Oh dear oh dear!

Nearly three pages in and the thread has descended into the petty arguing and point scoring that infests the male cycling world.

I think it is patently obvious why many females and a lot of other cyclists don't want to be involved with 'proper' cycling clubs or 'proper' cyclists.......


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## Dogtrousers (17 Nov 2021)

Seeing as you're interested, I typically finish 200k audaxes in roughly 12 hours at a moving average of about 20kmh / 12.5 mph. Thereabouts. Ish. Or at least I used to, I've not done one for a couple of years.

I still think 15/16 mph is very fast for a ride advertised as being for beginners.

I have no problem with clubs having no rides in my speed range. They are just obviously not right for me.


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## matticus (17 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Seeing as you're interested, I typically finish 200k audaxes in roughly 12 hours at a moving average of about 20kmh / 12.5 mph. Thereabouts. Ish. Or at least I used to, I've not done one for a couple of years.
> 
> I still think 15/16 mph is very fast for a ride advertised as being for beginners.


Oh sure, I wasn't quibbling with the latter! Just saying that 15-16 isn't *necessarily* as fast as I felt you were making out, relative to speeds that 200k riders are capable of ... hmmkay? :-)


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## matticus (17 Nov 2021)

I like Skol said:


> Oh dear oh dear!
> 
> Nearly three pages in and the thread has descended into the petty arguing and point scoring that infests the male cycling world.


Don't worry - we don't want Your Sort anyway.

;- )


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## PaulSB (17 Nov 2021)

I like Skol said:


> Oh dear oh dear!
> 
> Nearly three pages in and the thread has descended into the petty arguing and point scoring that infests the male cycling world.
> 
> I think it is patently obvious why many females and a lot of other cyclists don't want to be involved with 'proper' cycling clubs or 'proper' cyclists.......


What I find difficult to understand is how people have such a poor experience of clubs.

I've belonged to three over the past 27 years and I haven't encountered the issues described here. I would agree in relation to speed and/or distance it can be difficult to provide rides suitable for all members.

My club offers five weekend rides which vary in speed averages from 12/13 mph to 20+ and distance between 27 and 80+. There are those who consider we should introduce a sixth. This arose because the group which used to ride at 14/15 has improved to 16/17 (same riders) leaving a wide gap for the 12/13 riders to bridge. The problem from the club's perspective is just how many rides can we manage?


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## Dogtrousers (17 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> What I find difficult to understand is how people have such a poor experience of clubs.


One of the reasons you & I have good experience of clubs may be we've been lucky and have chosen good clubs.

Another, relevant to this thread, may be that we are male.


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## PaulSB (17 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> One of the reasons you & I have good experience of clubs may be we've been lucky and have chosen good clubs.
> 
> Another, relevant to this thread, may be that we are male.


The first sentence is very probably true.

I don't know quite how to express the next bit. I'm sure being male is relevant but not in relation to point scoring etc.

I've some knowledge of the entry barriers for women and I'm going to post separately later. Two reasons for leaving it; to ensure I express myself properly and secondly to separate my points from a post about club quality.


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## derrick (17 Nov 2021)

Clubs are always a bit hit and miss, Even our club had the idiot who put everyone down, women and men made no difference to him, Apparently no one is as good as him, He still rides with the club but has been told a few times where to go, he has calmed down a bit, but he just can't help himself.


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## I like Skol (17 Nov 2021)

derrick said:


> Clubs are always a bit hit and miss, Even our club had the idiot who put everyone down, women and men made no difference to him, Apparently no one is as good as him, He still rides with the club but has been told a few times where to go, he has calmed down a bit, but he just can't help himself.


I'm confused now, are you talking about club members or forum members?


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## PaulSB (17 Nov 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Are your cycling clubs dealing with this and, if they are, how?


This was the question and it's a great one. During lockdown spring 2020 myself and a friend spent many hours riding very locally both as a pair and singly. To spend a couple of hours riding locally is unusual for us. We became very aware of the significant number of lone female cyclists we saw. The question we asked was who are these riders? Are they interested in club riding? In late 2019 I had a long conversation with a Breeze leader from which it became apparent there is no next step from Breeze rides. In my area there are clearly a lot of female cyclists and it seems local cycle clubs are not offering what they need.

My club membership 81% male and 19% female. We have three female committee members. Within the female membership we have strong riders whose interest is in the "ride quality" - is it long enough, fast enough, hilly enough etc. In other words is it a good ride for me? These women are happy to ride in mixed groups being confident in their ability to hold their own and in some cases inflict serious pain!  Other women prefer to ride at a slower pace, a more socially focused ride and don't feel confident in a mixed group.

The first thing a club must do is recognise men are the wrong people to make decisions, offer ideas, offer solutions to the women members. These things must come from the female membership. There is absolutely no point in a male committee deciding the club should offer women only rides if the women don't want them! The first steps to addressing women's interests in cycling and club membership is to bring women in to the committee, speak directly to the female membership and understand their concerns.

There are barriers to women becoming involved in cycling both solo and at club level. Clubs need to address these and offer solutions if they are to enjoy the enormous benefits of having a large female membership. In no particular order, and not exclusive to women, just a few examples:

Understand the need for women's space - a wide societal issue
Women's definition of a social ride differs from men's
Is there sexism involved
Personal safety
Lack of women's rides
Nervousness at wearing lycra and feeling on show
Don't know how/can't change a tube
Unsure how to use a GPS unit
Not confident in traffic
Not confident in a group
I won't be good enough
Today I really need to be sure there will be a toilet stop
Lack of confidence in riding skills
Lack confidence to ask for help
I'm not fast enough
A need to be away from the male gaze
Lack of maintenance ability/knowledge *(added at edit)*
Use the right words "women", "ladies", "female"* (added at edit)*
The key is for a club to understand what women want out of a club and the barriers to women joining a club. That will only happen by involving women in the running of the club and changing what the club offers accordingly. I'm pleased to say the club I belong to is doing this.

Kendall CC until recently had a woman as chair, the club built it's membership to one-third female two-thirds male. There is a lesson for every club in the country.


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## mjr (17 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> [...] the group which used to ride at 14/15 has improved to 16/17 (same riders) [...]


I think this sort of equating faster with improved really deters lots of people from clubs.


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## Arrowfoot (18 Nov 2021)

I can't belief in this day and age, we are still struggling with this. And it's cycling. By now clubs and any forms of associations should be asking themselves if they have been inclusive. And if not, did they try.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> I think this sort of equating faster with improved really deters lots of people from clubs.


In which case would you like to provide a word which adequately describes the situation? A rider or group of riders begins to build fitness and stamina leading to their ride becoming faster. This is an improvement in their ability.

I climb better today than I did three years ago. I climb better, I've improved this aspect of my riding. One can't get away from that.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> The first sentence is very probably true.
> 
> I don't know quite how to express the next bit. I'm sure being male is relevant but not in relation to point scoring etc.
> 
> I've some knowledge of the entry barriers for women and I'm going to post separately later. Two reasons for leaving it; to ensure I express myself properly and secondly to separate my points from a post about club quality.


The reason I say I'm not sure being male is relevant is this. If you take a look at my longer post regarding women in clubs you'll see I've listed barriers to women in cycling. Amongst these as examples are:

Changing a tube
Using a GPS unit
Confidence in traffic
Maintenance ability/knowledge
During the months spent understanding the barriers women perceive or encounter it became apparent these are spread across the sexes. There is an assumption across society that "men understand these things" it's some sort of second nature to us. This isn't true but what appears to be the case is a woman is more likely to openly acknowledge a lack of understanding and be ready to accept help.

Making assumptions is dangerous. For 18 months I've listened to a cycling friend complain the Garmin only ever gives text instructions, often too late and inaccurately - quite by chance we discovered the map screen was switched off/disabled! In another instance I was discussing with a woman the difficulties she encountered with loading routes, a male cyclist overheard and commented he could never use his GPS because he can't install the routes!

The club has recently run two basic maintenance course and will run more. We are planning a workshop on how to get the best from a GPS unit. Assuming knowledge is dangerous and applies across both sexes.


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## mudsticks (18 Nov 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> I can't belief in this day and age, we are still struggling with this. And it's cycling. *By now clubs and any forms of associations should be asking themselves if they have been inclusive*. And if not, did they try.



That phrase right there

The problem is if they're only asking _themselves_.

ie asking the already 'in group' they won't make much progress 

The answer wil probably be.

"We don't _deliberately_ exclude anyone, what's the problem?" 

So any 'trying' for inclusivity, if it happens at all, will be misplaced, or tokenistic.

You need to go _outside_ of the in group to find out why the ones who _are_ put off joining, are put off, really _listen_ to the answers, and then tackle that. 
_If_ you want to stand any chance, of improving things. 

PaulSB seems to have got the reasonable beginnings of a list. 

Personally I'm not interested in joining a cycling club, because I prefer to cycle by myself, it's my me time, as it is for many others, I'm sure. 


But then I'm an independent minded woman, confident out by myself, able to navigate, fix a bike, and am used to looking after myself.

But tbh if I came across some of the wince inducing attitudes, and language used towards women, that I come across on here, at a prospective 'club' then I'd not hang around very long. 

I still get talked down to at bike shops, even when being served by guys the same age as my kids. 

I'm old enough to have taken the stabilisers off of their bikes 

The sexism is endemic, the language is entrenched, it takes effort to notice it, and adjust it.

Not everyone can even be bothered to try..

One other aspect of all this which is a much broader point, is that commitment to a regular club ride at weekends.

I suspect it's other commitments which are keeping a lot of women off their bikes.
They're too busy with various 'caring duties' the child and elder care , the domestic work still largely falls to them, even in this day and age .


Many women are just not as good (yet) at ring fencing their "me time" there are still many many women who feel guilty at going out and doing things, just for fun, just for themselves. 

Whereas 'time out with the lads' to do sport, or whatever is very much embedded in our culture right?? 

And sadly there are still women in relationships where going out by themselves, or with others, particularly in 'mixed groups' is not 'allowed' or is seen as suspect in some way.

I think and hope this is changing now, but it is slow.

I do see far more women going out, and doing stuff, nowadays, organising activities for themselves, solo and in groups, gaining confidence.

'Just doing it' 

Which is great.
As this confidence and visibility increases, we may see equality building.

But if existing clubs want more women to join them, they'll have to work at deeper change.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

mudsticks said:


> That phrase right there
> 
> The problem is if they're only asking _themselves_.
> 
> ...


I've had every point you've listed expressed to me, I just chose a point at which to stop. The most difficult area is to "get outside the club/group." How do males do this? It first needs trust to be built before one can get to the nub of the matter - difficult for a man for reasons I'm sure we both appreciate. Our approach was to get women involved in determining what is needed, this was partly done by those women talking to other women outside our club both directly and on social media. The results were surprising and changed the club's offer/view, when I say surprising it was a surprise to the women asking the questions! As I've tried to say assumptions are dangerous.

I don't want to divert this discussion but will relate a recent attitude I encountered. Over a beer myself and two other men were discussing the need for women's rides. All retired, one 55, me 67, the other early 60s. I commented "it's about understanding the need for women's (safe) spaces not just in cycling but society." One nodded and continued the conversation, the other looked at me blankly clearly wondering "what on earth is he on about." I don't pretend to have a true understanding of "women's spaces", a little but not much. I know the need exists and while I struggle to fully understand I don't struggle with accepting the need or desire. Lets keep it to cycling and simply understand that within a cycling club there needs to be an environment in which women feel comfortable in every sense of the word.


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## mudsticks (18 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I've had every point you've listed expressed to me, I just chose a point at which to stop. The most difficult area is to "get outside the club/group." How do males do this? It first needs trust to be built before one can get to the nub of the matter - a difficult for reasons I'm sure we both appreciate. Our approach was to get women involved in determining what is needed, this was partly done by those women talking to other women outside our club both directly and on social media. The results were surprising and changed the club's offer/view, when I say surprising it was a surprise to the women asking the questions! As I've tried to say assumptions are dangerous.
> 
> I don't want to divert this discussion but will relate a recent attitude I encountered. Over a beer myself and two other men were discussing the need for women's rides. All retired, one 55, me 67, the other early 60s. I commented "it's about understanding the need for women's (safe) spaces not just in cycling but society." One nodded and continued the conversation, the other looked at me blankly clearly wondering "what on earth is he on about." I don't pretend to have a true understanding of "women's spaces", a little but not much. I know the need exists while I struggle to fully understand I don't struggle with accepting the need or desire. Lets keep it to cycling and simply understand within a cycling club there needs to be an environment in which women feel comfortable in every sense of the word.



Yup the need for listening and consideration of other people's experiences is ongoing .
It's a process, not a one stop survey .

You often hear the old phrase

"I just don't understand women"

Or variation thereof, trotted out.

Upon enquiry you discover the effort made to _gain_ understanding has been approximately nil.

The meaningful conversations, and _active_ listening done often amount to the same near zero tally.

Alongside of course that other _assumption_ that women are some sort of _separate_, and 'unknowable' species.

Yet at the same time wholly homogeneous as a group in their needs, likes, dislikes, and issues.

Thankfully attitudes are changing, but very slowly .

I suspect many of the issues that put women off joining cycling clubs, are very similar to those that would be exclude _some_ men from doing so.

That's not to say so that there aren't some very 'female specific' barriers that need tackling.

It's ongoing work.

Edited to add in response to 'lets keep it to cycling clubs' 

The point is that people in cycling clubs bring the same attitudes from the rest of their lives to the cycling club .

So if they have sexist attitudes outside , they'll be brought with them, right.? 

They can't be tackled _only_ in certain places, ignored elsewhere, it just doesn't work like that.


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## mjr (18 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> In which case would you like to provide a word which adequately describes the situation?


Accelerated? Increased? Sped up?



> A rider or group of riders begins to build fitness and stamina leading to their ride becoming faster. This is an improvement in their ability.


But it is not necessarily an improvement in the ride. Indeed, it may make it inaccessible to some.



> I climb better today than I did three years ago. I climb better, I've improved this aspect of my riding. One can't get away from that.


I assume better means faster to you, but it could mean more efficient, less straining, able to ride steeper max gradients, or other things.

But this may be ableism more than sexism so I guess we are straying offtopic.


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## yello (18 Nov 2021)

mudsticks said:


> So any 'trying' for inclusivity, if it happens at all, will be misplaced, or tokenistic.



I'm reminded of another debate, with a similar inclusivity question, where the response was something along the lines of 'we don't need you to solve our problems, we don't need your help, to be looked down on or patronised, we want you to respect that we can do it ourselves in our way, give us the space and stop the judgement'


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## Dogtrousers (18 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> I'm reminded of another debate, with a similar inclusivity question, where the response was something along the lines of 'we don't need you to solve our problems, we don't need your help, to be looked down on or patronised, we want you to respect that we can do it ourselves in our way, give us the space and stop the judgement'


So what are the practical implications of that reported point of view for male dominated cycling clubs?

No action needed. It might be considered patronising if we changed anything. 
Next item, about that 15mph beginners ride. Isn't it a bit slow?


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## Scoosh (18 Nov 2021)

@fair weather cyclist – Edinburgh & Lothians CTC run rides which I understand cater for all ages and stages.
Edinburgh Belles on Bikes is aimed at beginners, I believe - and you might even find @Telemark (Mrs EdFoC) leading a ride...

Some years ago, when we started the CC Écosse rides, there were (and still are, when they happen) 3 Rulz:
– any bike will do 
– no one gets left behind 
– there will be cake 

It works !


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## mudsticks (18 Nov 2021)

Scoosh said:


> @fair weather cyclist – Edinburgh & Lothians CTC run rides which I understand cater for all ages and stages.
> Edinburgh Belles on Bikes is aimed at beginners, I believe - and you might even find @Telemark (Mrs EdFoC) leading a ride...
> 
> Some years ago, when we started the CC Écosse rides, there were (and still are, when they happen) 3 Rulz:
> ...





First rule of any group activity .

There must _always_ be cake .

If I'm organising _any_ event for _anyone_, of any particular 'grouping' or _none_ ..

Sort out the cake.


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## yello (18 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> So what are the practical implications of that reported point of view for male dominated cycling clubs?


That's a good question. I don't know the answer but I respected where the pov was coming from, what it alluded to. Perhaps what @PaulSB outlined above is the start of an approach.

Perhaps an answer (and only one possibility) is for guys to butt out completely and let women run their own clubs. Doesn't speak much to inclusivity though.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> Accelerated? Increased? Sped up?


Yes, I guess all are descriptive of a group becoming faster so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you would pick out my use of "improved" as your choices pretty much describe the same thing.



> But it is not necessarily an improvement in the ride. Indeed, it may make it inaccessible to some.



I said the riders had improved I did not say the ride had improved. Does it mean the ride has improved? It depends on the measure I suppose. Increased speed and stamina opens up new possibilities leading to quieter, more scenic routes, better views, alternative cafes for example. I know for this particular ride people who had stopped using it have returned so possibly it is seen as an overall improvement by those individuals.

Inaccessible to some? Yes but no one has stopped using the ride, others have returned but it is harder for riders in the group which rides at 12/13 to make the jump. The solution? Perhaps accept one needs to put a little extra effort in for a few weeks. Create a new ride, step forward and offer to put on a group which is going to ride at 14/15. It's not a difficult task and people should not expect to have everything handed to them on a plate.



> I assume better means faster to you, but it could mean more efficient, less straining, able to ride steeper max gradients, or other things.
> 
> But this may be ableism more than sexism so I guess we are straying offtopic.



Better does not mean faster to me because I recognise all cyclists are good cyclists, no one is better than another. Through natural ability, training, experience and host of other factors some riders are able to ride further, faster, climb harder etc. than others. It doesn't make them better simply faster. As for my own improvement as a climber, yes I measure it in terms of speed on climbs I know well but also by successfully tackling climbs which would previously have been a significant challenge. I know this increase in speed and ability to tackle harder climbs is because I have improved and am better than I used. It comes through better technique resulting in greater efficiency, less straining, greater endurance and so on. Better is in relation to myself, I am not better than anyone else.


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## mudsticks (18 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> That's a good question. I don't know the answer but I respected where the pov was coming from, what it alluded to. Perhaps what @PaulSB outlined above is the start of an approach.
> 
> Perhaps an answer (and only one possibility) is for guys to butt out completely and let women run their own clubs. Doesn't speak much to inclusivity though.



I think in truth it's going to be a blended, multistranded approach, to tackling this.

_Really_ listening to concerns raised, in good faith.

Acknowledge whats being said, but not necessarily leaping in to try to 'fix' or change things in a heavy handed way.

Not imagining that change will come overnight, but neither thinking that a problem is intractable if it's _not_ fixed overnight.

As ever it's about understanding, and awareness. 


And of course we don't need permission to run our own groups, many of us already do that.


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## derrick (18 Nov 2021)

I like Skol said:


> I'm confused now, are you talking about club members or forum members?


I was talking about the club i belong to. but know you mention it i think we may have some on here as well.


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## fair weather cyclist (18 Nov 2021)

Scoosh said:


> – there will be cake



Lol...speaking of cake...I forgot to mention a detail about the "beginners" ride my partner took part in 

50 miles beginners ride. They did stop for cake and coffee....at mile 45.


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## mjr (18 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> Yes, I guess all are descriptive of a group becoming faster so I'm at a bit of a loss as to why you would pick out my use of "improved" as your choices pretty much describe the same thing.






> [...] Perhaps accept one needs to put a little extra effort in for a few weeks.


I'm not going to respond to all of it and continue dragging this off-topic, but it ain't about effort for some people. They can put in as much effort as they like and their physical situation means they will not get faster. Others can actually put in extra effort, maybe can be egged on by the talk of "faster"="improved", but then will be going home in under blue lights or in a box. This does not mean they are bad or worse or unable to improve.



> Create a new ride, step forward and offer to put on a group which is going to ride at 14/15. It's not a difficult task and people should not expect to have everything handed to them on a plate.


I'm with you but "it's not a difficult task" is rather contradicted by what look like multiday courses (at £135 per day) on ride organising from BC and CUK, among other things, which I think does scare many people out of doing it.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> I'm not going to respond to all of it and continue dragging this off-topic, but it ain't about effort for some people. They can put in as much effort as they like and their physical situation means they will not get faster. Others can actually put in extra effort, maybe can be egged on by the talk of "faster"="improved", but then will be going home in under blue lights or in a box. This does not mean they are bad or worse or unable to improve.



It's you who keeps equating faster with improved. I've already explained my view which you don't seem to accept. 




> I'm with you but "it's not a difficult task" is rather contradicted by what look like multiday courses (at £135 per day) on ride organising from BC and CUK, among other things, which I think does scare many people out of doing it.




No one needs to attend a ride leaders course to put on a ride. These courses have nothing to do with club riding. I don't know anyone who "leads" a ride who has attended such a course. In my club we discourage the whole concept of ride leaders. They aren't needed and having people in this role creates difficulties for the club, ride participants and the smooth running of a ride or rides.

From all you've said in this thread and others it seems to me you either have an issue with cycle clubs or perhaps don't understand how they work.


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## mjr (18 Nov 2021)

I still don't agree on speed but am dropping that now.


PaulSB said:


> From all you've said in this thread and others it seems to me you either have an issue with cycle clubs or perhaps don't understand how they work.


 Except for going on group rides once or twice a week! 

I think it sounds like you have ridden with one club you like but I have ridden with several and still sometimes go as a guest to some, so I know there are many sorts of club out there and sadly many clubs are pale, male and/or stale with no desire to change.


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## Dogtrousers (18 Nov 2021)

@SydZ Did she complete the ironman? If so


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## yello (18 Nov 2021)

In my final years in London, I rode a number of audaxes with a women who competed in age-group triathlon (it would have been over 50 or 55 then) She was training for a Hawaii Ironman event as I recall. I've just googled and she came in 9th in the over 60s world final 4 years later!


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## itboffin (18 Nov 2021)

I’m new to cycling in my mind at least (13 years) I’m a father of two daughters and a granddaughter and I’m genuinely surprised there is or needs to be any separation or differences between male and female club riders we’re all just equal people all with different skills and abilities, again my opinion but until people stop classifying themselves when will this BS end.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

mjr said:


> I still don't agree on speed but am dropping that now.
> 
> Except for going on group rides once or twice a week!
> 
> I think it sounds like you have ridden with one club you like but I have ridden with several and still sometimes go as a guest to some, so I know there are many sorts of club out there and sadly many clubs are pale, male and/or stale with no desire to change.


I've ridden with three clubs my current one being the best of the lot. If you haven't ridden with a forward thinking club I can understand why you hold the views you do.


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## PaulSB (18 Nov 2021)

itboffin said:


> I’m new to cycling in my mind at least (13 years) I’m a father of two daughters and a granddaughter and I’m genuinely surprised there is or needs to be any separation or differences between male and female club riders we’re all just equal people all with different skills and abilities, again my opinion but until people stop classifying themselves when will this BS end.


You're absolutely right there should be no need for separation but it must be acknowledged for some women entering what is perceived as, and in truth is, a male dominated sport being able to ride in a comfortable environment with other women is very important. It's a sad reflection of our society.


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## Ming the Merciless (18 Nov 2021)

DCLane said:


> Because they're aiming these at 'stronger' riders.
> 
> Similar to the op's better half I've had problems finding a local group for my son to ride with. My club's 17-18mph average 'fast' ride is too slow. Other groups and clubs won't take him because he's under 18 and/or their riders might be embarrassed (according to one response  ).
> 
> It took one of his ex-coaches asking very nicely to the leader of another club's 20+ mph fast group to get a ride. Needless to say he went, coped fine, and has joined them as a thank-you. He takes a parental consent form with him and the ride leader has my contact details.



That doesn’t explain why the longer rides are at a faster pace than shorter. If the pace isn’t high enough for stronger riders why not have a ride at half distance of the longer one and 2 mph faster?


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## mjr (19 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I've ridden with three clubs my current one being the best of the lot. If you haven't ridden with a forward thinking club I can understand why you hold the views you do.


My current group is fine, thanks.

But if you haven't ridden with a backwards club, I can understand why you don't seem to realise the problems!


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## matticus (19 Nov 2021)

I'm going to start a Backwards Cycling Club. Just to confuse everyone next time this is discussed

https://bgfitclub.com/workout/back-it-up-with-backward-cycling/


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## Dogtrousers (19 Nov 2021)

I think we may need a separate thread entitled "Men Bellyaching That Those Clubs Over There Are Doing It All Wrong"

But we may have already had one of those


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## Milzy (19 Nov 2021)

We have some old gammons on mixed rides who are saying things like “ohhh look at the ar$e on that” etc. Totally out of order. They could at least be discreet if they can’t help themselves. No wonder cycling doesn’t attract enough women.


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## yello (19 Nov 2021)

One of the most disturbing things for me on @PaulSB 's list of what was putting women off was 'the male gaze'

I know how I felt when I first started wearing lycra and I will admit to feeling self conscious. That gave me a negligible insight to part of the problem, but what it's like to be 'checked out' 24/7, I really can't imagine. I see it everywhere; supermarkets, wherever. Some guys just can't help themselves it seems. I've even been with my wife when she's been eyed up (and, no, it doesn't make me feel 'proud', or whatever, if anyone feels like making that 'joke') It frankly appals me.

I've been walking down the street and unintentionally caught the eye of a passing women. Her eyes drop immediately to the pavement, to avoid further contact. It makes me feel awful. But worse, I feel ashamed that she feels the need to do that. I have intimidated her, not me personally but my gender.

It really does not surprise me that some women want nothing at all to do with men and/or a predominantly male club. And I have to say, at the risk of inflaming the men's club, I can understand why - and it is men's fault. Face it guys, we're neanderthals sometimes.

Edit: sorry if I'm sounding overly emotional, it's just something that angers me


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## matticus (19 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> It really does not surprise me that some women want nothing at all to do with men and/or a predominantly male club. And I have to say, at the risk of inflaming the men's club, I can understand why - and it is men's fault. Face it guys, we're neanderthals sometimes.


So what's your solution?

Blinkers? Iodine tabs in bidons?


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## mjr (19 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> So what's your solution?
> 
> Blinkers? Iodine tabs in bidons?


Don't tempt me. Strychnine in the bidons of the ones @Milzy mentions sounds good right now.


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## yello (19 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> So what's your solution?
> Blinkers? Iodine tabs in bidons?


Basically, learn not to do it. We've learnt many things over the generations, so it's not beyond us to curtail it. You can appreciate without leering. Seriously, it starts within every single one of us. Stop defending it is as 'human biology' or 'natural' or whatever, and start asking yourself what you're doing. There are guys that don't do it so there's no excuse for the rest of us.

Edited for spelling


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## mudsticks (19 Nov 2021)

itboffin said:


> I’m new to cycling in my mind at least (13 years) I’m a father of two daughters and a granddaughter and I’m genuinely surprised there is or needs to be any separation or differences between male and female club riders we’re all just equal people all with different skills and abilities, again my opinion but until people stop classifying themselves when will this BS end.



Not sure where you've been but there has been exclusionary and derogatory language used about women and their abilities for centuries .

Added to some belief that appraisal of their appearance, or attractiveness is in some way welcome from complete strangers.

These things are done to them by men, specifically _because_ they are women. 


Things like active sports have historically been portrayed as the preserve of men.

Often very unhelpful comments will be made by men, about women, if they participate. 

Often around appearance, or performance.


No surprise really then that many women have absorbed these attitudes, and even language themselves.
They're already starting on the back foot in terms of confidence.

Have to start from a place where they don't see role models of other women participating (at all levels) in what has been trad male spheres .

So they often suffer with some kind of 
'imposter syndrome'

Thankfully that's changing a bit now, but you still hear some thoughtless, or even deliberately harmful language and attitudes..

It's up to the guys to change all that
_If_ they want women joining mixed sex clubs.



matticus said:


> So what's your solution?
> 
> Blinkers? Iodine tabs in bidons?



_We_ can tell the difference between being 'eyed up'.

And just being 'seen' as fellow human beings .

If guys _really_ can't tell whether they're gaze is making others uncomfortable or not , then maybe _they'd_ be better off averting their own eyes


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## matticus (19 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> Basically, learn not to do it. We've learnt many things over the generations, so it's not beyond us to curtail it. You can appreciate without leering. Seriously, it starts within every single one of us. Stop defending it is as 'human biology' or 'natural' or whatever, and start asking your what you're doing. There are guys that don't do it so there's no excuse for the rest of us.


Well* I *don't do it. So i'm not massively interested in stopping, or curtailing it, and I don't need an excuse.


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## yello (19 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> Well* I *don't do it. So i'm not massively interested in stopping, or curtailing it, and I don't need an excuse.


As I said, I readily accept that some men don't do it. Indeed, I think it gives hope because it shows it can be done and is beyond none of us. (Though, I have to ask, how many men would think it of themselves? And I am not implying you're amongst them btw) But you really ought be interested in stopping it in others.

It is a male problem and, as such, up to us to start asking the questions of ourselves and calling out the behaviour of other males. Whether we like it or not, or consider ourselves to be part of the problem, it is up to us to own it and call it out - or, at the very least, not endorse it either tacitly or with silence.


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## matticus (19 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> As I said, I readily accept that some men don't do it. Indeed, I think it gives hope because it shows it can be done and is beyond none of us. (Though, I have to ask, how many men would think it of themselves? And I am not implying you're amongst them btw) But you really ought be interested in stopping it in others.
> 
> It is a male problem and, as such, up to us to start asking the questions of ourselves and calling out the behaviour of other males. Whether we like it or not, or consider ourselves to be part of the problem, it is up to us to own it and call it out - or, at the very least, not endorse it either tacitly or with silence.


I hereby "call it out", if anyone reading this is doing it. You have been told by matticus - stop it!


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## yello (19 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> I hereby "call it out", if anyone reading this is doing it. You have been told by matticus - stop it!


Way to go. Seriously. Put it into broader practice, take it on the streets!


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## All uphill (19 Nov 2021)

Thanks @yello you have said it better than I ever could.

Along with the appraisal look I am increasingly (and belatedly) aware of all the "funny" stories that just happen to have a "female" in the role of idiot. Sure we also hear of men close-passing, but it seems to me that it's far more frequently a woman cast in that role.


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## Ian H (19 Nov 2021)

Exeter Wheelers seem to do a reasonable job. We have women on the committee, women organising, and women riding & racing. It's certainly not perfect, and we're nowhere near 50% female membership. There have been some fairly frank exchanges at meetings, but no-one, as far as I can recall, has thrown their toys out of the pram. 

As far as club runs go, we have a variety, but the summer chaingangs do move to evens (20mph average) and are race-training events.


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## Dec66 (19 Nov 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Are your cycling clubs dealing with this and, if they are, how?
> 
> Cycling has always been male dominated. There's very little doubt about that. A lot of clubs seem to be talking a lot about inclusion and how much they want to increase the number of female members. Which is great, only to find out that at the end of the day, they don't do much at all.
> 
> ...


I'm with Penge CC. No issues with inclusivity, at all.

Seems astonishing that there still would be in 2021, but I guess toxic masculinity is like eczema, a bugger to shift.


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## iluvmybike (20 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> We have some old gammons on mixed rides who are saying things like “ohhh look at the ar$e on that” etc. Totally out of order. They could at least be discreet if they can’t help themselves. No wonder cycling doesn’t attract enough women.


_ I'd agree but I also hope that anyone hearing that comment on a ride would immediately challenge the 'old gammons' spouting it - especially the men in the group - and bluntly tell them straight. I think I'd be asking them to leave the group because that is just so out of order - suggesting they be 'discreet' is just sweeping the issue under the table._


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## matticus (20 Nov 2021)

If we're going to look at challenging offensive comments, then once we've dealt with the leering-related, can we please deal with nasty phrases like "old gammons"?
kthxbai!


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## Ming the Merciless (20 Nov 2021)

matticus said:


> I'm going to start a Backwards Cycling Club. Just to confuse everyone next time this is discussed
> 
> https://bgfitclub.com/workout/back-it-up-with-backward-cycling/
> 
> View attachment 618358



As a kid I was riding my bike backwards (sitting on handlebars) across a big playground , racing a mate running. I managed to run him over and watch it unfold.


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## Juan Kog (20 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> What I find difficult to understand is how people have such a poor experience of clubs.
> 
> I've belonged to three over the past 27 years and I haven't encountered the issues described here. I would agree in relation to speed and/or distance it can be difficult to provide rides suitable for all members.
> 
> My club offers five weekend rides which vary in speed averages from 12/13 mph to 20+ and distance between 27 and 80+. There are those who consider we should introduce a sixth. This arose because the group which used to ride at 14/15 has improved to 16/17 (same riders) leaving a wide gap for the 12/13 riders to bridge. The problem from the club's perspective is just how many rides can we manage?


Apologies if this has already been commented on . If the club has 5 speed groups, presumably evenly spread , the improvers from the 14/15 mph group should have stepped up a group. Not taken away an improvement route for the 12/13 mph . sorry Paul. Just my view .


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## PaulSB (21 Nov 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> Apologies if this has already been commented on . If the club has 5 speed groups, presumably evenly spread , the improvers from the 14/15 mph group should have stepped up a group. Not taken away an improvement route for the 12/13 mph . sorry Paul. Just my view



I see exactly what you're suggesting but our structure isn't quite like this. We have four weekend rides, Saturday 12/13 and 16/17 (was 14/15), Sunday 16/17 (was 14/15), 20+ and one which is straightforward 50 mile blast, no cafe at around 17/18.

So as the 14/15 ride improved there wasn't a ride to move up to. It's an intractable difficulty. A group of riders improve their form over a period of time, not deliberately it happens - I do know how and why but - and a club shouldn't restrict this.

I can't pretend to know the solution. People improve there riding which creates gaps, they shouldn't be held back. Equally a cycle club cannot simply create more and more rides to accommodate everyone.

We do need a 14/15 ride but as always it requires people to organise it. We've deliberately moved away from ride leaders as this role creates more difficulties than it solves. What we look for is "facilitators" - people who make things happen - and so someone needs to step forward and get things moving.

Related to facilitators and back on topic. I'm proud to say women's rides will be part of our programme in 2022. 2-3 female riders got together to sort this and with some committee support it's ready to launch in February.

A women's Christmas social ride is also happening. 22 signed up. This is a first for us.

Last Sunday one club ride was 60% women, another first for the club. I'm expecting the same ride to be 50/50 today - I'll find out in the car park at 9.00!!

A modern cycling club should be flexible, inventive and proactive. Possibly we're late to the party but things are happening.


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## Juan Kog (21 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I see exactly what you're suggesting but our structure isn't quite like this. We have four weekend rides, Saturday 12/13 and 16/17 (was 14/15), Sunday 16/17 (was 14/15), 20+ and one which is straightforward 50 mile blast, no cafe at around 17/18.
> 
> So as the 14/15 ride improved there wasn't a ride to move up to. It's an intractable difficulty. A group of riders improve their form over a period of time, not deliberately it happens - I do know how and why but - and a club shouldn't restrict this.
> 
> ...


5 rides over 2 days , not 5 rides on Sunday morning. I should have read your post properly .
I just jumped in assuming it was like my own club .10 groups on a Sunday morning speeds from 12 mph to no limit. This includes a youth group with accredited adult leaders .So this provides for members to move between groups.


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## PaulSB (21 Nov 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> 5 rides over 2 days , not 5 rides on Sunday morning. I should have read your post properly .
> I just jumped in assuming it was like my own club .10 groups on a Sunday morning speeds from 12 mph to no limit. This includes a youth group with accredited adult leaders .So this provides for members to move between groups.


That's impressive. What size is the club? I can't quite imagine the degree of organisation this requires. Do you have ride leaders or like us publish routes and the rides guide themselves?


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## Juan Kog (21 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> That's impressive. What size is the club? I can't quite imagine the degree of organisation this requires. Do you have ride leaders or like us publish routes and the rides guide themselves?


500+ members, that’s all categories. Including Youths ,second claim etc . Degree of organisation, a dedicated club run secretary assisted by another committee member. Each group has a number of leaders to call on , they use ride with GPS . Thankfully for me and the club I have absolutely nothing to do with this .
Me, I couldn’t organise a heavy drinking session in a beer manufacturing plant sort of person .


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## PaulSB (21 Nov 2021)

yello said:


> One of the most disturbing things for me on @PaulSB 's list of what was putting women off was 'the male gaze'
> 
> I know how I felt when I first started wearing lycra and I will admit to feeling self conscious. That gave me a negligible insight to part of the problem, but what it's like to be 'checked out' 24/7, I really can't imagine. I see it everywhere; supermarkets, wherever. Some guys just can't help themselves it seems. I've even been with my wife when she's been eyed up (and, no, it doesn't make me feel 'proud', or whatever, if anyone feels like making that 'joke') It frankly appals me.
> 
> ...


I've been meaning to reply for days. I agree with everything you say. One thing I do need to make clear, and I didn't before, this quote, and it was one, came from a woman who was talking about stopping to fix a mechanical, puncture etc. and feeling inadequate as a bunch of guys watched. 

Equally wrong but nothing like as serious as the interpretation you put on my comment. Just to repeat I do agree with everything you posted and it was my poor phrasing, well knowing what I was thinking really, which gave you a different impression.


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## Milzy (21 Nov 2021)

I have seen a Middle Aged man riding in a Le Col drops jersey. This is the uci women’s team jersey. 
Does it really matter? I bet he doesn’t even know it’s a women’s team.


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## PaulSB (21 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> I have seen a Middle Aged man riding in a Le Col drops jersey. This is the uci women’s team jersey.
> Does it really matter? I bet he doesn’t even know it’s a women’s team.


I'd just be worried about someone who feels the need to wear team kit. Full stop.


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## Dogtrousers (21 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> I have seen a Middle Aged man riding in a Le Col drops jersey. This is the uci women’s team jersey.
> Does it really matter? I bet he doesn’t even know it’s a women’s team.


Did it fit? If so, no problem.

I'm sure the sponsors wouldn't mind.


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## Dec66 (22 Nov 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Did it fit? If so, no problem.
> 
> I'm sure the sponsors wouldn't mind.


I must say, I was very drawn to the Penge CC Ladies Skin Suits for sale yesterday.

Shame I couldn't get one to fit me, really.


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## I like Skol (22 Nov 2021)

Dec66 said:


> I must say, I was very drawn to the Penge CC Ladies Skin Suits for sale yesterday.
> 
> Shame I couldn't get one to fit me, really.


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## Cathryn (27 Nov 2021)

Milzy said:


> I have seen a Middle Aged man riding in a Le Col drops jersey. This is the uci women’s team jersey.
> Does it really matter? I bet he doesn’t even know it’s a women’s team.



Women have been wearing pro men’s team kit in all sports forever!! Not a biggie!


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## cougie uk (28 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I'd just be worried about someone who feels the need to wear team kit. Full stop.


You must spend a lot of time being worried then ?

Back in the day team kit was just about the only decent kit you could get. Things are a lot different now but if someone wants to wear team kit - where's the harm ?


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## Alex321 (28 Nov 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I'd just be worried about someone who feels the need to wear team kit. Full stop.


Why? 

What on earth is there about that which gives any conceivable cause for "worry"?

It is perectly normal and commonplace behaviour among supporters of any sporting team to want to wear that team kit. That is why teams sell replica kits.


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## PaulSB (28 Nov 2021)

cougie uk said:


> You must spend a lot of time being worried then ?
> 
> Back in the day team kit was just about the only decent kit you could get. Things are a lot different now but if someone wants to wear team kit - where's the harm ?





Alex321 said:


> Why?
> 
> What on earth is there about that which gives any conceivable cause for "worry"?
> 
> It is perectly normal and commonplace behaviour among supporters of any sporting team to want to wear that team kit. That is why teams sell replica kits.



Worried? No. It was a flippant tongue-in-cheek remark nothing else.


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## kingrollo (14 Dec 2021)

Lots of females on the rides in my cycling club. Not an issue - more the merrier....some of them are damm good cyclists.


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## Proto (18 Dec 2021)

My eldest daughter is involved with these two groups. Both run by women, with the specific aim of encouraging woman to partake in cycling at all levels. They set up training courses, bike maintenance, bike packing skills, map reading etc. The latter ( not sure about SitW) welcomes men to attend their events but all ride leaders are female. Their ambition is not necessarily to go faster and further but to be diverse and inclusive, all ages, sizes, backgrounds welcomed.

https://www.sistersinthewild.com/

https://www.thenewforestoffroadclub.com/


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## Flick of the Elbow (19 Dec 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Very interesting insights from everyone. Thanks, really appreciate it.
> 
> Sounds like this particular club is just full of bad apples (I'm in the Edinburgh and Lothians area).
> 
> I'm waiting for my partner to get more into cycling, then I'll try to convince her to start her own club with other like minded people


I moved to Edinburgh 27 years ago and still haven’t found a club that suits me, far less one that suits my wife. I had a brief few years enjoying the West Lothian Clarion rides from East Calder but they’re too fast for me now.


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## Porcia (26 Jun 2022)

I like how it's all men answering, this what's wrong with women's cycling.


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## mudsticks (26 Jun 2022)

Porcia said:


> I like how it's all men answering, this what's wrong with women's cycling.



Well let's face it sweetheart .

Men are the 'experts' on everything right .?? 

Even the experts on how women find things... 💃💜💚🚲 🤭


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## PaulSB (26 Jun 2022)

Porcia said:


> I like how it's all men answering, this what's wrong with women's cycling.



Have you bothered to read the thread? Surely you can see the men posting are supportive of women's cycling.

We can only comment as men


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## pawl (26 Jun 2022)

I have a welcome to Yorkshire Top that I frequently wear I’m not from Yorkshire I love Yorkshire and visit at least a couple of times a year for non cycling holidays
As regarding women in cycling clubs Back in the fifties I joined the local CTC section We had four ladies who were regulars what ever the weather .Same with another close by had several women members. I and male members never had a problem.

Times have changed since then. Most clubs now appear to be speed oriented rather than full day rides back then 
Don’t know if it still exists Leicester had an all female club DeMontfort Ladies


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## mudsticks (26 Jun 2022)

PaulSB said:


> Have you bothered to read the thread? Surely you can see the men posting are supportive of women's cycling.
> 
> We can only comment as men



But if we comment 'as women' on here - ie on cyclechat - on this thread or elsewhere - if there is obvious sexism at large in a situation - then we will get asked to take it to NACA..

Because it's deemed 'too political'.. 

Sexism doesn't just happen on some club rides.
It's everywhere, and we should just put up, or shut up, right ?? 

Laugh along with 'the lads' or we're all just 'sourpusses' right??


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## PaulSB (26 Jun 2022)

mudsticks said:


> But if we comment 'as women' on here - ie on cyclechat - on this thread or elsewhere - if there is obvious sexism at large in a situation - then we will get asked to take it to NACA..
> 
> Because it's deemed 'too political'..
> 
> ...



First when I say "as men" I mean that it's impossible for us to comment from the female perspective. We can listen, we can repeat what we are told, and I would always do this with emphasis that I'm repeating views expressed by women to me, and we can at least try to understand.

I would suggest the discussion here should be about women and cycling it should not be broadened across society. If the discussion does broaden in this way it will be moved to NACA which is an issue for moderators and Shaun - I don't agree with such moves but accept the "rules."

The issues women come up against in society are reflected in cycling and vice versa but this isn't the forum for that wider discussion. Nothing any of us can do about this as it's not our forum.

Regarding the last two sentences the answer is of course not. Women should be free to act as they wish and should not have to be one of the lads or be cast as surpasses. Something I feel I've made very clear on other occasions as my view.

I understand some of the problem and those parts I do not understand I accept as being true. Why? Simply because I've discussed the topic many times with many different women. I am far from alone amongst male cyclists in having this view and I can guarantee you I've taken male riders to task over such issues and I'll continue to do so.

I try and I think it's the best I can offer.


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## mudsticks (26 Jun 2022)

PaulSB said:


> First when I say "as men" I mean that it's impossible for us to comment from the female perspective. We can listen, we can repeat what we are told, and I would always do this with emphasis that I'm repeating views expressed by women to me, and we can at least try to understand.
> 
> I would suggest the discussion here should be about women and cycling it should not be broadened across society. If the discussion does broaden in this way it will be moved to NACA which is an issue for moderators and Shaun - I don't agree with such moves but accept the "rules."
> 
> ...



All good then 👍🏼


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## PaulSB (26 Jun 2022)

mudsticks said:


> All good then 👍🏼



Thank you.


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## Milzy (26 Jun 2022)

We’ve got a few women on our chain gang & one is now crit racing. It’s great to see, but would be better to see more.


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## PaulSB (27 Jun 2022)

Milzy said:


> We’ve got a few women on our chain gang & one is now crit racing. It’s great to see, but would be better to see more.



We have 6 women who ride our chain gangs and for the first time we have a women's team competing locally.


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## AndreaJ (30 Jun 2022)

I’ve been riding with a group since January, it’s more of a social group rather than an official club which was set up following a Facebook post by someone looking for some cycling buddies. There are 12 of us altogether and I’m the only woman.
Originally there were more women who set up their own ladies ride with a different route and meet up time but they don’t do it anymore although I’m not sure why as I went on the earlier ride.
I’ve not had any problems with the men in our group, never been made to feel uncomfortable or too slow, we all agree that it’s been good to have some company and find new places to go.


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## I like Skol (30 Jun 2022)

I ride with what can only be described as Old Women. Does this count?


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## Big T (22 Jul 2022)

My club has 42% female membership. They have a women‘s only club ride on Fridays. They have 10-12 mile Breeze rides on Thursday evenings. They have a Tuesday evening ride open to all members with 4 different speed groups - the slowest being 12mph. They have a handful of very committed ladies who organise all of this. I think that’s the key - some ladies feel intimidated by riding with men, many dont, but giving them an option of a slower ride or a ladies only ride if they want it seems to work. The organising ladies know what works and proceed accordingly.

There are lots of faster ladies who are happy to join in with normal club rides at 17-18 mph.


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## I like Skol (23 Jul 2022)

Big T said:


> There are lots of faster ladies who are happy to join in with normal club rides at 17-18 mph.



Are they happy to reduce their speed to fit in with the advertised ride speed?


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## Petrichorwheels (23 Jul 2022)

cougie uk said:


> I passed a womens club out by Frodsham the other week. I forget the name but they had cool kit.
> 
> In my old club women weren't even allowed to join until the 80s ! How mad is that ?



very mad.
I'd love to know what the objections were, for surely they must have been voiced as the dread move to admit them was proposed.


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## Petrichorwheels (23 Jul 2022)

Porcia said:


> I like how it's all men answering, this what's wrong with women's cycling.



Unless I have skimmed too fast, i didn't think the subject of the thread was "what's wrong with women's cycling".
And anyways, 2 points.
1 - how do you know for sure what gender (or whatever the term de jour is) respondents are?
2 - it's an open forum - folks of whatever gender/persuasion/whatever or none can respond - by responding/giving their tuppenceworth of thoughts they are not stopping whoever responding.


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## matticus (23 Jul 2022)

Big T said:


> They have a handful of very committed ladies who organise all of this. I think that’s the key - some ladies feel intimidated by riding with men, many dont, but giving them an option of a slower ride or a ladies only ride if they want it seems to work. The organising ladies know what works and proceed accordingly.



I see. So the problems - where they occur - are due to lack of organising commitment by ladies.
I guess that's possible ...


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## Petrichorwheels (23 Jul 2022)

Personally as a long-time attendee and sometime leader of group rides, open to whoever turned up, and not being a racer but a touring ambling sociable rider, I always preferred rides with a mix of men and women. And since the rides were open to whoever turned up they usually were a mixture. In all my years of going on/leading such rides I can honestly say that I don't recall ever coming across what I would call a "gender issue", or anyone of whatever gender complaining that they weren't catered for equally and with empathy. But then these rides were in fresh air, not on the internet of course.
If any "eyeing up" went on, it also worked both ways.
which ditto is also entirely normal natural.
In a non internet kinda way.


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## Ripple (23 Jul 2022)

I'm a woman and I prefer to cycle on my own. I tried quite a few local cycling clubs but they all seem to be obsessed with racing, more racing, even more racing. There are women in these clubs but when you look at the club's website about the riders you see "she raced here and there". No just leisure cyclists. I ride for my pleasure and not for racing. 

Cycling on my own also suits my introvert personality because I don't need to talk to anybody.  and I'm the boss of setting up speed, tea breaks and "I need to take a pic of that flower" stops.

I do few rides with other people though.


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## Milzy (24 Jul 2022)

It’s the women who are fanatical on racing in our club & the men just want to do long rides & get really fit without been too serious.


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## Big T (31 Jul 2022)

I like Skol said:


> Are they happy to reduce their speed to fit in with the advertised ride speed?



16-18mph is the advertised ride speed. There are often 4 groups going out - Steadies (12-14), Intermediates (Inters)(14-16), Advanced (16-18), Fast (18+). Plenty of Ladies do the Inters and Advanced, Steadies is mostly Ladies, Fast is mostly men, but all of the rides are open to everyone.


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## Andy in Germany (8 Aug 2022)

I don't really know much about cycling club culture, especially in the UK, but if the local club isn't keen, why not start a group? It can be an informal thing at first using Farcebook or meetup, or even the local paper, and move onto a more organised structure later on. With social media as it is now, there's never been a better time to get the world out.


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## Milzy (8 Aug 2022)

We’ve got 3 women who are stronger than some of the men. It’s a pleasure to ride with them.


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## Richard A Thackeray (30 Aug 2022)

I’m not in a club anymore, to be frank, being a member was a _ badge of convenience_ for racing CX, & the nearest good ‘LBS’ sponsored a club 

Two of the other local clubs do seem to have very active ladies sections, but the latter may have more of a mixed ride calendar?
They are; _’Calder Clarion’_ & _’Wakefield Triathlon Club’_


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## DCLane (31 Aug 2022)

@Richard A Thackeray - I'd agree both seem to have got a decent set-up for ladies, particularly Wakey Tri.


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## Jameshow (31 Aug 2022)

Otley Cc often had a woman on the front of the chaingang .... 

Oh that will be Lizzie!!!


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## Richard A Thackeray (31 Aug 2022)

DCLane said:


> @Richard A Thackeray - I'd agree both seem to have got a decent set-up for ladies, particularly Wakey Tri.


Yep!
One of my friends, who (hubble is also a member, & VERY good in his age-group) has been a National duathlon champion 



Jameshow said:


> Otley Cc often had a woman on the front of the chaingang ....
> 
> Oh that will be Lizzie!!!


It might still happen, when she’s visiting her parents


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