# We All Want to Support Our LBS......BUT!!!



## Dave7 (10 Mar 2015)

I needed 3 new bottle cages so..................
I went to my LBS and chose the one I wanted. The guy was very helpful..........brought his own bike out to show me that THAT is the cage he uses etc...
Deal done (sort of  ).............£10.00 each which I thought was expensive so........................
I just purchased the one and went 1/2 mile to Decathlon.
EXACTLY THE SAME CAGE.............£6.99.
The last cycling item I purchased I found (exactly the same item) nearly 50% cheaper elsewhere and told the LBS---then asked him what he could do. The answer was "nothing".

As I (and others) have said before.............
a) I accept that the LBS can NOT compete with the buying power of the multiples.
b) If the LBS can get "somewhere near" the price I will happily pay the extra
BUT
50% more ?????
Never having run a small business I have no idea what the margins are or what the difference in buying power makes so I am not "having a go" at the LBS..........just the situation.


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## Smokin Joe (10 Mar 2015)

Dave7 said:


> I needed 3 new bottle cages so..................
> I went to my LBS and chose the one I wanted. The guy was very helpful..........brought his own bike out to show me that THAT is the cage he uses etc...
> Deal done (sort of  ).............£10.00 each which I thought was expensive so........................
> I just purchased the one and went 1/2 mile to Decathlon.
> ...



You've answered your own question.

In addition to the lower wholesale price they can command a large chain might be happy to make just a few pence profit on a small item that shifts by the thousand where as in a single shop it just wouldn't be worth it.

Think Tescos and Mr Patel's Mini Mart.


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## Turbo Rider (10 Mar 2015)

Yeah...it's buying power...distribution...cost of premises and other bills...bit like tesco selling a tin of beans for 20p when the corner shop sell it at £1...or maybe exactly like that...a lot of these superstores end up getting their math wrong in the end though and then it's all doomed.

TMN to SJ...if you believe in such things.


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## si_c (10 Mar 2015)

Just bought a new chainring last week, £20 from LBS, £12 from wiggle, bought from the LBS, I'm happy to pay a bit extra on some stuff just to make sure they are still there later. Plus they're nice guys I feel guilty buying stuff online.


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

I have a small business. I don't think anyone ever goes to John Lewis and says "How come - even with your massive buying power and your promise to never be undersold - you sell these for more than Knees Up does?" It often seems to me to be an unfair comparison - people notice when small independents are more, but not when they are less.

As others have said, if you have acres of floor-space you can fill some of it with things you make almost nothing on, so that when customers come to buy that cheap thing, they might also get something else, or notice something else they will come back for. If you have limited floor space you can't afford to speculate in the same way - every item has to have a 'proper' margin. I'd have given you a discount on three though.


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## w00hoo_kent (10 Mar 2015)

If it's a thing I want, it's in front of me in the LBS and the price seems like one I'd be happy to pay then I won't nip off and google it to check if I could get it cheaper, I'll buy it. If it feels a bit more than I want to pay, then I'll probably skip it and might then google it to find out if I could get it cheaper. Then again, if I need something for the bike, I'm likely to remember it while sat in front of the computer, so will price comparison Wiggle, CRC, etc. and just order it from the cheapest/one that has all the bits I'm after. I've no idea if my LBS gets enough of my trade, but they get a bunch of it. And if I buy a new (shiny new) bike, then I like doing it in person, so an LBS somewhere will get that money.


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## winjim (10 Mar 2015)

Am I a bad person for buying some spokes from a wheelbuilder, yet building the actual wheels myself?

winjim giveth, winjim taketh away...


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## Markymark (10 Mar 2015)

High St shops. Use em or lose em.

I've bought 4 bikes form my LBS in past 5 years. Buy all sorts of other bits from them. Have also bought bits from Wiggle as sometimes it's easier.

Instant demand shops will thrive (cafes, food, hairdressers etc). Other shops will only survive if people, not just use them, but buy big ticket items. Our high st is great. I often see people wondering in and out of the shops but the shops won't survive is all they buy is a coffee and a newspaper.

Some markets are destined to go online (buying music/books/films etc gets a far better service online) as they're just a commodity rather than service. Those that provide service (eg LBS) will only survive if people use them. I have no issue with people swapping to buy cheaper as long as they're not the ones who moan because they cannot buy things quickly as the LBS has now closed down and Wiggle won't deliver until the end of the week.


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## Racing roadkill (10 Mar 2015)

If you become a regular face at your LBS, they can sometimes cut you some slack, sure it won't always be to the extent of a bulk buyer, but there is always an undersell to Peter, on a smaller item, then oversell on a pricier item to Paul. As long as Peter is well known, and Paul is happy with the price he pays, everyone is happy. My favourite local bike shop, is an amazing 'Aladdin's cave' of bankruptcy potential, with friendly and knowledgeable staff. They have a price match policy as well. But if you don't ask, you can't get, can you?


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## Turbo Rider (10 Mar 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> High St shops. Use em or lose em.
> 
> I've bought 4 bikes form my LBS in past 5 years. Buy all sorts of other bits from them. Have also bought bits from Wiggle as sometimes it's easier.
> 
> ...


 
There's an LBS in Reigate (Maison Du Velo - lardy dah!) who double up as a coffee shop...haven't been in...bit out of my price range, but they may have just beaten the market!


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## winjim (10 Mar 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> I have no issue with people swapping to buy cheaper as long as they're not the ones who moan because they cannot *buy things quickly* as the LBS has now closed down and Wiggle won't deliver until the end of the week.



Did I mention the fortnight lead time on those spokes? I did? Oh well.


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## dan_bo (10 Mar 2015)

KneesUp said:


> I have a small business. I don't think anyone ever goes to John Lewis and says "How come - even with your massive buying power and your promise to never be undersold - you sell these for more than Knees Up does?" It often seems to me to be an unfair comparison - people notice when small independents are more, but not when they are less.
> 
> As others have said, if you have acres of floor-space you can fill some of it with things you make almost nothing on, so that when customers come to buy that cheap thing, they might also get something else, or notice something else they will come back for. If you have limited floor space you can't afford to speculate in the same way - every item has to have a 'proper' margin. I'd have given you a discount on three though.



Yep- and have you seen the prices on service in the big outfits compared to LBSs?


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## Mile195 (10 Mar 2015)

I don't mind paying extra to help support local businesses, but I was a bit peeved when two bolts that fix one side of the crank to my bottom bracket cost me 2.50 at a shop in Sidcup.
There was nothing remarkable about these two bolts, except the price. Maybe it's Shimano's fault, but I haven't bought anything there since. When I consider that a pick 'n mix bag of 500grammes worth of bolts, nuts or whatever the hell you like is 99p in Wilkinsons, I have difficulty accepting that two individual bolts of a specific (but not unique) thread pitch can ever cost that much to produce that the markup should take them to that sort of price even at a small business that has higher costs and overheads. Who knows - maybe everything else in the shop is actually quite reasonably priced, but I'm not that inclined to go back and find out now.

Shame really, because the people in there seemed quite nice and knowledgable.


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

It depends what they are made of (and I have no idea, I should add)

I do know that once the driveshaft popped off my car because the previous owner had replaced the five bolts holding it in place with normal steel ones instead of the special 'strong steel' ones he was supposed to use - and which were £2 each of Fiat, or something like that. It was fine for tens of thousand of miles afterwards.


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## w00hoo_kent (10 Mar 2015)

Seems an odd thing to fall out with your LBS over. How much profiteering do you think they're doing? If the bolts have anything special about them (size, thread, metal, colour, quality) then they are going to be made in a different way to your tub of bolts from Wilkinsons, which means they are going to be made in smaller quantities, which means they are going to cost more. Just because they both look similar on the outside doesn't mean they are identical things. Agreed some things are over priced (always an issue for me when the child was in to skateboarding and buying ludicrously overpriced bearings which really were just identical bearings plus marketing fluff) but that's a buyer beware thing surely. A couple of Shimano bolts are going to cost largely what Shimano have decided to charge for them...


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## Turbo Rider (10 Mar 2015)

Agree. There's a world of difference between the quality of bolts and screws - I've ruined enough of the cheap ones to know this and it's not much fun trying to dig them out afterwards, if you haven't got the right tools.


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## Mile195 (10 Mar 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Seems an odd thing to fall out with your LBS over. How much profiteering do you think they're doing? If the bolts have anything special about them (size, thread, metal, colour, quality) then they are going to be made in a different way to your tub of bolts from Wilkinsons, which means they are going to be made in smaller quantities, which means they are going to cost more. Just because they both look similar on the outside doesn't mean they are identical things. Agreed some things are over priced (always an issue for me when the child was in to skateboarding and buying ludicrously overpriced bearings which really were just identical bearings plus marketing fluff) but that's a buyer beware thing surely. A couple of Shimano bolts are going to cost largely what Shimano have decided to charge for them...


Maybe. First impressions and all that though isn't it. If you feel ripped off by the first thing you buy somewhere, it's natural (even if slightly illogical) to feel that its a sign of things to come.
I felt ripped off by a motorbike shop when I was 16. I saved for months to buy an old moped for 300 pounds. It lasted 6 weeks, and they weren't interested at all when I went back to say what had happened. Not so much as a cursory "oh well we could have a quick look and see what's wrong with it". I had to dismantle it myself in the end to find out it was completely catastrophic engine failure.

Since then I've probably spent around 35000 pounds on motorbikes and associated gear over the last couple of decades - not a penny of it at Littlehampton Motorcycles. Maybe I just got the salesman that had a bit of a bad day, but that's what you remember eh.


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Seems an odd thing to fall out with your LBS over. How much profiteering do you think they're doing? .... A couple of Shimano bolts are going to cost largely what Shimano have decided to charge for them...



In fact 2 for £2.50 seems quite a good price:


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## Smokin Joe (10 Mar 2015)

I wouldn't moan at £2.50 for two bolts. As for Wilkinsons, their gear is often cheap for a reason.


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## Bollo (10 Mar 2015)

I've got some sympathy with Dave after a recent experience at an LBS. I'd had a spate of p******* and run my stock of inner tubes down. Normally I either buy job lots from decathlon or wiggle for a unit cost of about £1.00-1.25. LBS - that'll be £5.99 each. What ground my gears was when he opened the cupboard to reveal some fancy boxed Conti inner tubes. He hovered over them for a sec before selecting some off-brand rubber that is certainly no better than the crap I normally buy.

The buggers could have nipped off to Decathlon themselves, bought a load, doubled the unit price to £2.50 and I'd have been happy, but a 400%-500% markup over _retail_ is just taking the pee.

My point here is that, if a shop is relying on hiking the price of consumables like inner tubes to stay afloat, then it's in trouble. Regular riders who actually consume reasonable amounts of stuff will feel like they've been burned and not return, while the occasional buyer is exactly that, also yielding no meaningful profit. 

I need some wheels truing and a possibly a new headset fitted. Guess where that's not happening.


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## axwj29 (10 Mar 2015)

Given the amount of time I spent discussing the merits of different sets of lights, helmets etc with my LBS, plus the time I took the bike in after a fall and they checked it and adjusted something free of charge.. I'm happy to pay more for the items I buy from them, if I choose to buy some things elsewhere it won't be because of price.


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## Arrowfoot (10 Mar 2015)

LBS that depend on selling small consumables will go the way of the Dodo. It has to be repairs and service. Wholesalers no longer enforce lower limit to support the smaller players as they face stiff competition from parallel importers. Its a difficult world and many will exit their business. Its just not LBS, all the small traders are in the same boat.


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## roadrash (10 Mar 2015)

seriously .... you felt ripped off for £2.50, how would you have felt if he charged you £1.00 for two bolts , but later miles from home the bolts failed and you discovered that the £1 bolts were actually made of cheese.
you can hardly say that £2.50 for the right bolts for the job is a ripp off


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## Mile195 (10 Mar 2015)

Guess I'm wrong then... Seems the profiteers in this are actually Shimano!


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## nickyboy (10 Mar 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> LBS that depend on selling small consumables will go the way of the Dodo. It has to be repairs and service. Wholesalers no longer enforce lower limit to support the smaller players as they face stiff competition from parallel importers. Its a difficult world and many will exit their business. Its just not LBS, all the small traders are in the same boat.



It seems so obvious doesn't it? The old LBS business model of selling bikes and all the consumables to go with has gone out with the ark. Other than specialist shops for niche stuff these shops just retailing will disappear. It's all about supplying something you can't buy on the internet. And that's repairs and service.

On the subject of expensive bolts, it's not the retailer, it's the supplier. Spares in any industry get marked up to high heaven. Smart purchasers seek out bit and bobs that work but aren't supplied by the OEM


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Mar 2015)

For the record we don't all want to support our LBS's. I'd rather support Halfords and my not-so-local LBS's as they offer better prices and better service.


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## MontyVeda (10 Mar 2015)

Last summer i was after a set of cartridge brake blocks... went to one LBS and they didn't have any in stock, but i wasn't a rush so asked if i could order some... but 'their suppliers' didn't do the specific type i needed. So i went to another LBS and got the same story... so i went home and went online, found what i was looking for and bought it. 

What got me was the 'our suppliers' bit... are they restricted to just one supplier for everything they sell?? (one was independent, the other part of small chain)


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## mrbikerboy73 (10 Mar 2015)

Mile195 said:


> Since then I've probably spent around 35000 pounds on motorbikes and associated gear over the last couple of decades - not a penny of it at Littlehampton Motorcycles. Maybe I just got the salesman that had a bit of a bad day, but that's what you remember eh.


@Mile195 Maybe this is why Littlehampton Motorcycles are no more!


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> Last summer i was after a set of cartridge brake blocks... went to one LBS and they didn't have any in stock, but i wasn't a rush so asked if i could order some... but 'their suppliers' didn't do the specific type i needed. So i went to another LBS and got the same story... so i went home and went online, found what i was looking for and bought it.
> 
> What got me was the 'our suppliers' bit... are they restricted to just one supplier for everything they sell?? (one was independent, the other part of small chain)


I expect the suppliers have a minimum order level , and the trade they do wouldn't justify it - and in order to be able to place minimum value orders, they have to restrict themselves to a middle-man type supplier who buys stuff off a lot of manufacturers and sells it on (with a profit) so they can't get everything in, and they can't get it in as cheap as Halfords et al if they can. I don't know this happens btw - but I imagine it does. I can't see Shimano bothering to ship thousands of tiny orders a week to various small shops.


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## MontyVeda (10 Mar 2015)

KneesUp said:


> I expect the suppliers have a minimum order level , and the trade they do wouldn't justify it - and in order to be able to place minimum value orders, they have to restrict themselves to a middle-man type supplier who buys stuff off a lot of manufacturers and sells it on (with a profit) so they can't get everything in, and they can't get it in as cheap as Halfords et al if they can. I don't know this happens btw - but I imagine it does. I can't see Shimano bothering to ship thousands of tiny orders a week to various small shops.


You're probably correct, but if the supplier can't supply something like this...






...maybe the LBS should use a different supplier.


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

MontyVeda said:


> You're probably correct, but if the supplier can't supply something like this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Post mount cantilever blocks? It's 2015, Grandad


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## BigAl68 (10 Mar 2015)

I love my lbs John's bikes in Bath and often but things from them when in the shop. Last Saturday I had my bottom jockey wheel come loose out on a ride and popped in as the bush had gone missing. They dug around in the workshop and gave me three if differing lengths as the derailleur is a 1980s golden arrow for nothing. 

I also buy lots online and also get the bike shop next to work to order me tyres when needed. I think a good LBS is a wonderful thing. And not sure the maths in the OP are right?


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## MontyVeda (10 Mar 2015)

KneesUp said:


> Post mount cantilever blocks? It's 2015, Grandad


I still wear my pants around my waist too!


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## Smokin Joe (10 Mar 2015)

The LBS will never disappear anymore than the corner shop disappeared with the rise of supermarkets. They will be smaller in number but there's still a demand for them and the good ones will survive and thrive. If you want to go back to the "Golden age" of the LBS you'll also have to put up with the 50% of them who were crap with terrible customer service and poor performance.


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## si_c (10 Mar 2015)

User said:


> I popped into Richardsons in the queensgate centre here in Peterborough for an inner tube I need one with an 48mm + valve...he said £11.99 no I responded just the one please. it is for one was his reply...I went across the road to motoresavers and bought one for £4...now I don't mind paying around £5 for a tube but for £11.99 I'd expected it to inflate itself....



Damn, my LBS will supply a decent tube and fit the damn thing for less than that


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## S.Giles (10 Mar 2015)

My local Pound Shop carries bicycle inner tubes, but is always sold-out of the popular sizes because _'some guy comes in and buys them all'_. I wonder who he is, and what he does with_ shed-loads_ of inner tubes!


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## si_c (10 Mar 2015)

S.Giles said:


> My local Pound Shop carries bicycle inner tubes, but is always sold-out of the popular sizes because _'some guy comes in and buys them all'_. I wonder who he is, and what he does with_ shed-loads_ of inner tubes!



LBS owner?


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## RedRider (10 Mar 2015)

Time will tell but the decline of the LBS is far from obvious in this part of London. 

Off the top of me head...Seabass Cycles, Balfe's, Cycle PS, Edwardes, Paul's Custom Cycles, another Balfe's, the fab Brixton Cycles, Apex Cycles, Herne Hill cycles...all small independent shops, each with their quirks and offering something slightly different within 10 minutes easy ride of here. Four have opened in the last two or three years.

Ok, the internet is best and cheapest for some stuff (tyres anyone?) but have a good relationship with a good shop and be rewarded with continuity of care, a wealth of knowledge, the occasional freebie and 'for you' prices which are almost as cheap but with added value.


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## Turbo Rider (10 Mar 2015)

S.Giles said:


> My local Pound Shop carries bicycle inner tubes, but is always sold-out of the popular sizes because _'some guy comes in and buys them all'_. I wonder who he is, and what he does with_ shed-loads_ of inner tubes!



Or a private online seller perhaps? Giant were selling innertubes for 10p at one point...nearly considered starting up my own business off the back of it...3 for £10 + P&P or something...there's money in them thar hills.


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## Arrowfoot (10 Mar 2015)

RedRider said:


> Time will tell but the decline of the LBS is far from obvious in this part of London.
> 
> Off the top of me head...Seabass Cycles, Balfe's, Cycle PS, Edwardes, Paul's Custom Cycles, another Balfe's, the fab Brixton Cycles, Apex Cycles, Herne Hill cycles...all small independent shops, each with their quirks and offering something slightly different within 10 minutes easy ride of here. Four have opened in the last two or three years.
> 
> Ok, the internet is best and cheapest for some stuff (tyres anyone?) but have a good relationship with a good shop and be rewarded with continuity of care, a wealth of knowledge, the occasional freebie and 'for you' prices which are almost as cheap but with added value.



Not the big cities as there is a large catchment area of customers. Its smaller towns who can't match on price. Even online and smaller chain stores struggle to survive with the bigger volume purchasers.

The LBS owner can have the widest smile, work 20 hrs a day and even make pancakes while you wait but its straightforward economics where his margin is concerned. Its no longer within his control.

The other viable option is to differentiate your value proposition. Be a very different from other mainstream LBS. Thats means that your product is different so price match is not possible.


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## KneesUp (10 Mar 2015)

KneesUp said:


> Post mount cantilever blocks? It's 2015, Grandad


Incidentally, hands up who bought a bike on eBay today that takes that very type of block ...

[puts hand up]


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## RedRider (10 Mar 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> Not the big cities as there is a large catchment area of customers. Its smaller towns who can't match on price. Even online and smaller chain stores struggle to survive with the bigger volume purchasers.
> 
> The LBS owner can have the widest smile, work 20 hrs a day and even make pancakes while you wait but its straightforward economics where his margin is concerned. Its no longer within his control.
> 
> The other viable option is to differentiate your value proposition. Be a very different from other mainstream LBS. Thats means that your product is different so price match is not possible.



True enough and I wouldn't want to downplay how hard it must be for those I listed above to stand out and make a go of it either, even with a bigger potential local market.

We get to make our choices as customers though and while times are hard we'll often look to the bottom line but it's not necessarily where the value lies.


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## Levo-Lon (10 Mar 2015)

Cycle wright in baston, waterside garden centre is closing at the end of the month, Reason ,he cant compete..


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## Tin Pot (10 Mar 2015)

Dave7 said:


> I needed 3 new bottle cages so..................
> I went to my LBS and chose the one I wanted. The guy was very helpful..........brought his own bike out to show me that THAT is the cage he uses etc...
> Deal done (sort of  ).............£10.00 each which I thought was expensive so........................
> I just purchased the one and went 1/2 mile to Decathlon.
> ...


It's £3 dude. Chill.


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## S.Giles (10 Mar 2015)

43% higher.


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## MarkF (10 Mar 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> It's £3 dude. Chill.



I was thinking that all they way through the thread. £3! Get a life.

I use my LBS and expect to pay more than in a multi national conglomerate, I am not bothered because I have had things from them for nothing, I can also get 3 little things from them, when I will have had to buy a pack of 10/20/50 of the same things from the MNC. It's the reason I use my local DIY store and not Wickes too, it's far more pleasurable doing business there and I am not sure (long term) it costs me any more cash, if it does, it's a sum not going to keep me awake at night.


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## youngoldbloke (11 Mar 2015)

MarkF said:


> *I was thinking that all they way through the thread. £3! Get a life.*
> .


Not a good idea to apply that sort of thinking to all your finances. For 3 bottles it's actually a £9 saving. So when does it become sensible to consider a 43% saving prudent? There is an old saying - 'Look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves'.


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## lesley_x (11 Mar 2015)

I recently went into three LBS's looking for a 90mm stem. Really wasn't fussed about type or anything, just had to fit. Not one of them had one in stock or said they were able to order me one. Ordered from wiggle and arrived the next day.


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## John the Monkey (11 Mar 2015)

Arrowfoot said:


> LBS that depend on selling small consumables will go the way of the Dodo.


Possible, I guess, although one place locally is well known (and used by lots of the bike commuters at work) precisely for their willingness to rummage in the bits box for a particular washer or bolt, and the variety of unusual bits and bobs they have on hand and are willing to sell as singles.


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## JMAG (11 Mar 2015)

John the Monkey said:


> Possible, I guess, although one place locally is well known (and used by lots of the bike commuters at work) precisely for their willingness to rummage in the bits box for a particular washer or bolt, and the variety of unusual bits and bobs they have on hand and are willing to sell as singles.



Couldn't agree more. I've only been back on a bike a few months, but these are the free bits I've had from 2 different LBS.

LBS 1. Frame clips for a bottle cage.
LBS 2. Crank bolt covers, cable crimp ends, seat stay light mounts x 3

In return for his kindness and some good advice, I paid LBS 2 £14 for a bottle of muck off and a can of GT85 and that was with a couple of quid discount! His bikes and many other items are competitively priced whilst other items are "extortionate". On this particular day I was only his 2nd sale of the day, the first being a £10 sale. Unfortunately, he probably won't be trading by next year and a lot of people will getting their service and advice from Halfords. Yes, there are Evans and others around, but for every LBS that closes a proportion of would be customers will go to Halfords, Argos, Tesco et al.

I buy some bits online, but mostly things I can't pick up locally. This week it's a Shimano HG51-8 11-28 cassette and an SRAM chain (PC850). I have nothing against people who buy everything online, everyone makes their own choices, but I think the general public is losing a valuable resource every time an LBS closes down (with some exceptions, no doubt).


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## Kestevan (11 Mar 2015)

I don't mind paying a bit over the odds for the convenience, but there comes a point where it's financially very difficult to justify, and the fact is that some LBS owners don't do themselves any favours:

Years ago I wanted to change the crankset on my commuter. I'd picked out the replacement Tiagra compact set and BB and priced it up on CRC or Wiggle so I had a rough idea how much it could be bought for. The LBS wanted more than double just for the parts, plus fitting. I queried the price and said Wiggle had the bits for 1/2 his price. His answer was that he couldn't get it from the supplier for that price..... I suggested he therefore either bought the parts from Wiggle or I did and paid him to fit them. He grumbled about not fitting parts he hadn't supplied etc etc. and in the end I told him to forget it; I bought the parts from Wiggle (and the required tools) and did the job myself. 

Now I do my own maintenance and most of my parts come from Wiggle/CRC. Later on today I'll be ordering a set of new wheels - Fulcrum Quattros. Wiggle Price £197, price in the LBS - £279.99........


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## JMAG (11 Mar 2015)

Indeed, not all LBS are created equal, neither are all cyclists.


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## Smokin Joe (11 Mar 2015)

Kestevan said:


> I don't mind paying a bit over the odds for the convenience, but there comes a point where it's financially very difficult to justify, and the fact is that some LBS owners don't do themselves any favours:
> 
> Years ago I wanted to change the crankset on my commuter. I'd picked out the replacement Tiagra compact set and BB and priced it up on CRC or Wiggle so I had a rough idea how much it could be bought for. The LBS wanted more than double just for the parts, plus fitting. I queried the price and said Wiggle had the bits for 1/2 his price. His answer was that he couldn't get it from the supplier for that price..... I suggested he therefore either bought the parts from Wiggle or I did and paid him to fit them. He grumbled about not fitting parts he hadn't supplied etc etc. and in the end I told him to forget it; I bought the parts from Wiggle (and the required tools) and did the job myself.
> 
> Now I do my own maintenance and most of my parts come from Wiggle/CRC. Later on today I'll be ordering a set of new wheels - Fulcrum Quattros. Wiggle Price £197, price in the LBS - £279.99........


90% of all my gear comes from online retailers because I am capable of fitting any part to the bike. But a huge army of cyclists out there are not, a lot of people haven't developed the mechanical skills of us oldies simply because there is no need for them to do so in this day and age. The LBS will always be there because there will be a continuing demand for them from people who are simply not interested in how the bike goes together or how it works, much as I am mot interested with washing machines. Most of the ones who ceased trading did so because they weren't much good anyway.


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## John the Monkey (11 Mar 2015)

I don't think anyone's saying to buy, or that they buy locally in all cases. But it's not the case that online is always cheaper.

Take Brompton parts, for instance. In general, I can get those from a local dealer (Harry Hall, in my case) for the same (sometimes less) than I can online.

Where they're not cheaper, the difference might not be massive; I get my brake pads from Bike Boutique, and I pay, maybe 50p more (sometimes less) than online. I'll pay 50p to have the parts in hand there and then, and because the shop is a great local resource.

I don't buy tyres at the LBS (save for Brompton tyres, which are the same price or cheaper) because the difference exceeds what I'm willing to pay to avoid the inconvenience of having to wait in for DPD. I do buy Carradice locally, because, again, it's usually cheaper, or the difference is an amount I can live with. And so on, and so on.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Mar 2015)

RedRider said:


> Time will tell but the decline of the LBS is far from obvious in this part of London.
> 
> Off the top of me head...Seabass Cycles, Balfe's, Cycle PS, Edwardes, Paul's Custom Cycles, another Balfe's, *the fab Brixton Cycles, *Apex Cycles, Herne Hill cycles...all small independent shops, each with their quirks and offering something slightly different within 10 minutes easy ride of here. Four have opened in the last two or three years.
> 
> Ok, the internet is best and cheapest for some stuff (tyres anyone?) but have a good relationship with a good shop and be rewarded with continuity of care, a wealth of knowledge, the occasional freebie and 'for you' prices which are almost as cheap but with added value.


why go anywhere else? for five years they were the only LBS I'd use. And I got my Brompton from them even though they are 25 odd miles away.


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Mar 2015)

Kestevan said:


> I don't mind paying a bit over the odds for the convenience, but there comes a point where it's financially very difficult to justify, and the fact is that some LBS owners don't do themselves any favours:
> 
> Years ago I wanted to change the crankset on my commuter. I'd picked out the replacement Tiagra compact set and BB and priced it up on CRC or Wiggle so I had a rough idea how much it could be bought for. The LBS wanted more than double just for the parts, plus fitting. I queried the price and said Wiggle had the bits for 1/2 his price. His answer was that he couldn't get it from the supplier for that price..... I suggested he therefore either bought the parts from Wiggle or I did and paid him to fit them. He grumbled about not fitting parts he hadn't supplied etc etc. and in the end I told him to forget it; I bought the parts from Wiggle (and the required tools) and did the job myself.


One LBS is very clear on their 'you buy we fit' policy, and they tell you up front what the fitting cost will be, and they frequently advise "we can't get it for that price so buy it online"

In more than one case of fitting headsets to new bare frames and fork (about the only job I don't like to do and don't have the tools to do myself) in recent years the cost of buying from him with "free" fitting has been £10 - £15, or more, more than the 'you buy we fit' option. Shop is an easy walk carrying a f+f from home too. But he has a tendency to try to sell what he has in stock not what you want which puts a lot of people off. 

When I walk in he generally moans "Not you again. What special item have I got to get in now!" which is odd cos my component choices are pretty mainstream.


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## Kestevan (11 Mar 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> One LBS is very clear on their 'you buy we fit' policy, and they tell you up front what the fitting cost will be, and they frequently advise "we can't get it for that price so buy it online"
> 
> In more than one case of fitting headsets to new bare frames and fork (about the only job I don't like to do and don't have the tools to do myself) in recent years the cost of buying from him with "free" fitting has been £10 - £15, or more, more than the 'you buy we fit' option. Shop is an easy walk carrying a f+f from home too. But he has a tendency to try to sell what he has in stock not what you want which puts a lot of people off.
> 
> When I walk in he generally moans "Not you again. What special item have I got to get in now!" which is odd cos my component choices are pretty mainstream.



Exactly as it should be. I would have had no problem paying him to fit components - but he wasn't interested.
The LBS I do occasionally use (strangely enough for headsets too - and I suspect in future for press fit BB as well) has no such issues.

Now it may be argued that failing to use the LBS for more day to day purchases will mean it wont be in business when I need it.... but I still can't justify paying twice as much.


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## MarkF (11 Mar 2015)

youngoldbloke said:


> Not a good idea to apply that sort of thinking to all your finances. For 3 bottles it's actually a £9 saving. So when does it become sensible to consider a 43% saving prudent? There is an old saying - 'Look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves'.



As I said, is saving is there actually a saving? I've a good relationship with my LBS, I've had things for nothing, I've had boxes of widgets opened so I can have smaller quantity, I've borrowed tools. There is no 43% saving for me to consider.


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## RedRider (11 Mar 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> why go anywhere else? for five years they were the only LBS I'd use. And I got my Brompton from them even though they are 25 odd miles away.


The best shop ever - a real institution and community hub - but sadly up against it at the moment. @GrumpyGregry The block they're in is being knocked down and rebuilt (losing yet more social housing as an extra kick in the teeth) and they're going to have to move out. There's some complexity to the situation - they've been offered a space in the new building but it's not ideal and will mean a move to other premises and then back in again, also not ideal. They're currently seeking the support and advice of legal /housing / buildings experts from the extended Brixton Cycles family ie potentially you, me or anyone else with a bit of clout, expertise or connections who cares about this wonderful place. See this... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=872070169521906


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## GrumpyGregry (11 Mar 2015)

RedRider said:


> The best shop ever - a real institution and community hub - but sadly up against it at the moment. @GrumpyGregry The block they're in is being knocked down and rebuilt (losing yet more social housing as an extra kick in the teeth) and they're going to have to move out. There's some complexity to the situation - they've been offered a space in the new building but it's not ideal and will mean a move to other premises and then back in again, also not ideal. They're currently seeking the support and advice of legal /housing / buildings experts from the extended Brixton Cycles family ie potentially you, me or anyone else with a bit of clout, expertise or connections who cares about this wonderful place. See this... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=872070169521906


Yeah, was aware of that. Used to work opposite them and still have a more than passing interest in that part of the world. I am a man of no clout nor connections.


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## RedRider (11 Mar 2015)

GrumpyGregry said:


> Yeah, was aware of that. Used to work opposite them and still have a more than passing interest in that part of the world. I am a man of no clout nor connections.


Aye, I'm working along Stockwell Rd myself at the mo',battling engaging with landlords and housing departments on a day-to-day basis. Reminded of cloutlessness every day. Anyway, thread derail.


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## Cyclist33 (11 Mar 2015)

Dave7 said:


> I needed 3 new bottle cages so..................
> I went to my LBS and chose the one I wanted. The guy was very helpful..........brought his own bike out to show me that THAT is the cage he uses etc...
> Deal done (sort of  ).............£10.00 each which I thought was expensive so........................
> I just purchased the one and went 1/2 mile to Decathlon.
> ...



ditto, i bought my elite custom race bottle cage at decathlon for 6.99, the local shop had them at 12.99, local shop in question markets itself as high end and custom builders and indeed their mechanic is absolutely brilliant, and service charges are pretty reasonable, but for small bits of kit like that its a no brainer for me, six quid saved is a pack of beers or a slap up binge at mrs miggins pie shop.


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## bpsmith (11 Mar 2015)

What makes me chuckle is when people rate their LBS' prices as expensive but then say but they're really nice guys in there as if that should be rewarded.

Some of us are really nice guys too, but they don't lower the prices on that basis, so why is it all one way?


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## Cuchilo (11 Mar 2015)

bpsmith said:


> What makes me chuckle is when people rate their LBS' prices as expensive but then say but they're really nice guys in there as if that should be rewarded.
> 
> Some of us are really nice guys too, but they don't lower the prices on that basis, so why is it all one way?


Mine do . Maybe you're not as nice as you thought you where ? Or I'm just really nice ?


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## bpsmith (11 Mar 2015)

Cuchilo said:


> Mine do . Maybe you're not as nice as you thought you where ? Or I'm just really nice ?


Might be me, or you, or both. Lol.

In all seriousness though, I struggle to get one of my larger LBS' to price match, despite them advertising on their site. I then ring the number from their site, agree the price match with the online team and that I will collect in store, all while stood in earshot of the floor manager. Online guys get the sales credit and the store guys lose out. Very strange way of doing things.

Wouldn't dream of this in a smaller store mind you!

I am always extremely polite throughout, I might add.


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## Cuchilo (11 Mar 2015)

I use a big chain store and they just look after me so I keep going back . Then again I wouldn't walk out if a water bottle cost £6 more than online .


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## Tanis8472 (31 Mar 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Might be me, or you, or both. Lol.
> 
> In all seriousness though, I struggle to get one of my larger LBS' to price match, despite them advertising on their site. I then ring the number from their site, agree the price match with the online team and that I will collect in store, all while stood in earshot of the floor manager. Online guys get the sales credit and the store guys lose out. Very strange way of doing things.
> 
> ...



Maybe because the "online" team can actually check the comparison. 
Wouldnt be unknown for folk to try it on would it


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## Learnincurve (31 Mar 2015)

Just going to plug my new local LBS, Chesterfield Cycle Centre, old CMC motorbike shop near the hospital. They order stuff in from the catalogue and then just charge you for installing. Website has a price list. http://chesterfieldcyclecentre.co.uk/pages/bicycle-service-workshop


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## si_c (31 Mar 2015)

Think my LBS just closed  Been shuttered up now for over a week....


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## Nigeyy (1 Apr 2015)

There is no doubt that if you don't use your local bike shop (and indeed other types of shops) they will go out of business. Whenever and where ever possible, I try to use small businesses. However, being truthful, most times my wallet does the talking and when price differences are >20-30%, it's always hard to justify a small business unless its an emergency.

While I do have sympathy with small businesses, I also think this is just a product of a changing market and business model; for example an online business can have lower operating costs and an economy of scale. And therein lies the rub for me -I wonder how many bike shop owners do their grocery shopping at a small corner shop and not a supermarket? Did they support their local corner shop when supermarkets became popular or just took advantage of substantially lower prices? (OK, I admit that's a rhetorical question as I think we all know the answer.) For positive or negative, times change...

Where I've been living I've seen the center of a nearby town decimated in the last 20 years for small business selling hard products (e.g. a small department store, a furniture shop, an art shop, etc have all gone) but they've largely been replaced with other shops that sell services such as restaurants, dance studios, nail salon, a bar, etc. I can't help but wonder if bike shops can't match volume pricing or don't have enough business for maintenance/mechanicking, they will need to become a bit more than just a bike shop to survive (I know some have evolved into selling coffee, tea, pastries, etc).


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## HovR (1 Apr 2015)

Got to say I've been impressed with me LBS (Rockets & Rascals, a small chain of 2 or 3 shops along the south coast), however I don't buy any parts off them if they're ones I'm going to be fitting myself, just can't afford it. 

Living in a house with no workshop facilities however means that work I can't do at home (fitting headsets, cutting steerers, bottom brackets for which I don't have the tools etc.) gets sent to them. Really reasonable prices too. Think I paid around £25 for bottom bracket & headset fitting, steerer cutting down, and front end assembling, including some spacers thrown in.


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## summerdays (1 Apr 2015)

I make a conscious decision not to look up the price of something online and go to the LBS sometimes to buy it. I'm not saying I make all purchases that way, but I know I will be paying more than online but I want him there for the occasions I do need him. A few weeks ago, I was riding with a friend when her headset went (she hadn't noticed any warning signs developing), and as we were so close she popped in and they were able to fit a new one immediately as she needed the bike for a ride the following day. Her old LBS is closing so they have just gained a new customer even though it's out of the way for her.

I've had bits for free out of his bits box, and lots of advice over the years.


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## bpsmith (1 Apr 2015)

Tanis8472 said:


> Maybe because the "online" team can actually check the comparison.
> Wouldnt be unknown for folk to try it on would it


They have the Internet on all till terminals in there and do everything they can to rubbish the comparison product, despite it being the same exact item.

Last year, I wanted some Specialized summer gloves. £35 in store. £12-£15 online at reputable stores. The LBS argued blind that they were "last years colours", despite both pairs being totally black and having same packaging and product code!


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## bpsmith (1 Apr 2015)

To counter the above, another local shop, of the larger albeit franchise type setup did offer discount yesterday. My Ultegra 11 speed chain, with £27.99 RRP, was available online as low as £17.99 (Ribble) but £19.99 being the average price on the other regulars (Wiggle, etc.). Shop did it for £22.99, which I could live with in fairness.

That's the balance from having it there and then for me. The downside being that there was no connecting pin in the box, rendering it useless!

The last bit isn't a major issue, as was probably pinched from in store, and have no doubt that it will get replaced later. Ironically, if I had ordered online then I would have a usable chain in the same timescale but with another £5 in the pocket. Lol.


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## Globalti (1 Apr 2015)

Oakley glasses, frame only from Vision Express: £190

Same frame online: £67

Ridiculous.


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## Tanis8472 (1 Apr 2015)

bpsmith said:


> They have the Internet on all till terminals in there and do everything they can to rubbish the comparison product, despite it being the same exact item.
> 
> Last year, I wanted some Specialized summer gloves. £35 in store. £12-£15 online at reputable stores. The LBS argued blind that they were "last years colours", despite both pairs being totally black and having same packaging and product code!



Fair enough


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## Flick of the Elbow (3 Apr 2015)

I never buy components from an LBS, always online or from Decathlon. But I would always buy my n+1 from an LBS, and I have an excellent repairs and servicing LBS.


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## Dave7 (3 Apr 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> It's £3 dude. Chill.


You are missing the whole point...........it is NOT £3.00......*it is 45% *(ish).
If you are happy paying 45% more for the IDENTICAL item then that is fine..........I just feel it is too much.


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## Dave7 (3 Apr 2015)

Cyclist33 said:


> six quid saved is a pack of beers or a slap up binge at mrs miggins pie shop.



Mrs Miggins pie shop ???? a new one on me.
Curall's......yummy!!!


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## raleighnut (3 Apr 2015)

Dave7 said:


> Mrs Miggins pie shop ???? a new one on me.
> Curall's......yummy!!!


Blackadder the third


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## Dave7 (3 Apr 2015)

raleighnut said:


> Blackadder the third



Ah..........I only watch programmes like panorama or the debate between political party leaders


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## Tin Pot (3 Apr 2015)

Dave7 said:


> You are missing the whole point...........it is NOT £3.00......*it is 45% *(ish).
> If you are happy paying 45% more for the IDENTICAL item then that is fine..........I just feel it is too much.



...£3.


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## nikkiss (22 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> Oakley glasses, frame only from Vision Express: £190
> 
> Same frame online: £67
> 
> Ridiculous.


probably they have much more expenses than the online store. you cannot compare an online store with a brick and mortar


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## winjim (22 Sep 2019)

nikkiss said:


> probably they have much more expenses than the online store. you cannot compare an online store with a brick and mortar


Online store quite possibly dodging taxes.


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## midlife (22 Sep 2019)

Is there someone purposefully resurrecting threads years old


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## vickster (22 Sep 2019)

midlife said:


> Is there someone purposefully resurrecting threads years old


Looks that way, peculiar


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## Dave7 (22 Sep 2019)

midlife said:


> Is there someone purposefully resurrecting threads years old


I was just wondering that


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## Globalti (22 Sep 2019)

I don't even remember posting that and I don't think it was me as I have no interest in Oakley frames. Could it be clever advertising?


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## ColinJ (22 Sep 2019)

Globalti said:


> I don't even remember posting that and I don't think it was me as I have no interest in Oakley frames. Could it be clever advertising?


Click on the little arrow at the top of the quote box - it shows that you DID in fact post that, as opposed to a fake quote like the one below...



Globalti said:


> ColinJ knows that I love Oakley and always buy them from Oakleys Oakleys store!


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## DSK (22 Sep 2019)

I agree with some of the comments.

If we are talking small differences then I buy in shop otherwise its online.

I was quoted £85 + £10 for tubes + £40 labour for a pair of 700x25 Conti Gatorsskins at my LBS. That's £95 for parts alone and £135 fitted

Online I got the tyres and tubes for £70 with Schwalbe tubes. £25 on those parts is a lot money to some people and such differences can quickly add up to large sums of money.


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## MontyVeda (22 Sep 2019)

winjim said:


> Online store quite possibly dodging taxes.


more likely just not having to cover the costs of rent and business rates.


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## MontyVeda (22 Sep 2019)

ColinJ said:


> Click on the little arrow at the top of the quote box - it shows that you DID in fact post that, as opposed to a fake quote like the one below...


could have been an April fool???


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## Venod (22 Sep 2019)

midlife said:


> Is there someone purposefully resurrecting threads years old



Looks like new member @nikkiss probabley going through the forum and reading old stuff that interests him.


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## winjim (22 Sep 2019)

MontyVeda said:


> more likely just not having to cover the costs of rent and business rates.


It was a reference to the poster's remark on the tax disc thread where they appeared to condone tax fraud.


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## EltonFrog (22 Sep 2019)

Venod said:


> Looks like new member @nikkiss probabley going through the forum and reading old stuff that interests him.



Anyone noticed the avatar? Reflection in the glasses?


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## ColinJ (22 Sep 2019)

CarlP said:


> Anyone noticed the avatar? Reflection in the glasses?


Ha ha - I hadn't... I hope that the car wasn't moving at the time he took the 2-handed selfie!


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## vickster (22 Sep 2019)

DSK said:


> I agree with some of the comments.
> 
> If we are talking small differences then I buy in shop otherwise its online.
> 
> I was quoted £85 + £10 for tubes + £40 labour for a pair of 700x25 Conti Gatorsskins at my LBS. That's £95 for parts alone and £135 fitted


Why did you even consider paying to have tyres fitted if not an emergency? And £20 a tyre 
Which SW London emporium was that?


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## DSK (22 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> Why did you even consider paying to have tyres fitted if not an emergency? And £20 a tyre
> Which SW London emporium was that?



This was a local bike place in Nottingham (my weekend home). 

Why? I am new to cycling so would have been easier to use a LBS as I hear stories of the rear wheel being a bugger.

I followed a GCN video and fitted them myself.


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## vickster (22 Sep 2019)

DSK said:


> This was a local bike place in Nottingham (my weekend home).
> 
> Why? I am new to cycling so would have been easier to use a LBS as I hear stories of the rear wheel being a bugger.
> 
> I followed a GCN video and fitted them myself.


Why is the rear wheel a bugger? Is it a hub wheeled bike?
Best to learn as you have done and carry the means to fix a puncture whenever you ride especially away from home


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## SkipdiverJohn (22 Sep 2019)

DSK said:


> I was quoted £85 + £10 for tubes + £40 labour for a pair of 700x25 Conti Gatorskins at my LBS. That's £95 for parts alone and £135 fitted



I'd have a funny turn and need to have a lie down if anyone expected me to pay £135 for a pair of tyres for a push bike. All the more so considering none of my bikes cost me anywhere near the price quoted just for tyres. £20 for a decent Schwalbe online, plus 4 or 5 quid max each for quality tubes (I like Conti Cross and Tour in 700 size personally), so no more than £50 max for a pair of tyres and tubes fitted DIY. I don't mind paying a couple of quid over and above online prices for local convenience, but I ain't paying double or more! £40 for fitting two tyres is more money than sense territory for anyone silly enough to pay that.


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## classic33 (22 Sep 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> *I'd have a funny turn *and need to have a lie down if anyone expected me to pay £135 for a pair of tyres for a push bike. All the more so considering none of my bikes cost me anywhere near the price quoted just for tyres. £20 for a decent Schwalbe online, plus 4 or 5 quid max each for quality tubes (I like Conti Cross and Tour in 700 size personally), so no more than £50 max for a pair of tyres and tubes fitted DIY. I don't mind paying a couple of quid over and above online prices for local convenience, but I ain't paying double or more! £40 for fitting two tyres is more money than sense territory for anyone silly enough to pay that.



I'd two this afternoon/evening
"Funny Turn"


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## raleighnut (23 Sep 2019)

midlife said:


> Is there someone purposefully resurrecting threads years old



Maybe using the search function instead of posting new threads.


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## Phaeton (23 Sep 2019)

CarlP said:


> Anyone noticed the avatar? Reflection in the glasses?


Left hand drive


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## vickster (23 Sep 2019)

Phaeton said:


> Left hand drive


Indeed. I don’t think the poster is in the UK


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## winjim (23 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> Indeed. I don’t think the poster is in the UK


Yet they have an opinion about the UK tax system. Trolly trolly troll troll.


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## vickster (23 Sep 2019)

winjim said:


> Yet they have an opinion about the UK tax system. Trolly trolly troll troll.


Or trying to get enough posts to then start spamming the classifieds?


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## EltonFrog (23 Sep 2019)

vickster said:


> Indeed. I don’t think the poster is in the UK


No, the reflection of his sunglasses seems to show him driving while using a mobile device, of course it may not be him.


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## vickster (23 Sep 2019)

CarlP said:


> No, the reflection of his sunglasses seems to show him driving while using a mobile device, of course it may not be him.


Or the car may not be going anywhere?
I can’t see that much detail on the phone


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## Globalti (23 Sep 2019)

From the eyewear I'd guess the poster may have been searching for stuff on Oakley and stumbled on my post.


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## Chris S (23 Sep 2019)

I used to support my LBS until I noticed that if you bought two or more items then they rounded the price UP to the nearest pound.


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## Pat "5mph" (23 Sep 2019)

winjim said:


> Yet they have an opinion about the UK tax system. Trolly trolly troll troll.


English Cypriot, says so in his new member's intro


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## classic33 (23 Sep 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> English Cypriot, says so in his new member's intro


He could escort you home.


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