# Is Cancellara Luigi???



## jdtate101 (8 Feb 2013)

The twitterverse seems to think so......

Let's see if this one has legs.... (pun intended)


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## oldroadman (8 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> The twitterverse seems to think so......
> 
> Let's see if this one has legs.... (pun intended)


The "twitterverse" is full of t*ssers who hide behind their user names and make wild accusations based on nothing but the need to start rumours or their own prejudice. Only proven facts matter. Remember the ridiculous thing about a secret motor? More rubbish discussed by people who don't have much of a clue, but a great desire to see their stirrings be "followed". Sad for them, innit?


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## Noodley (8 Feb 2013)

Cancellara rode under the guidance of Riis. That is a fact. In a team where doping was encouraged. Another fact. Do I need to go on? There are plenty of facts that link Cancellara with doping. A final fact - it would not surprise me if Cancellara was a doper. I hope not...but I am open to it being highly likely.


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## derrick (8 Feb 2013)

Twitter is for twats.


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## raindog (8 Feb 2013)

I like Fab. That means he didn't dope.


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## jdtate101 (8 Feb 2013)

I too hope he hasn't, but I've seen enough in the last few years to be seriously jaded when it comes to denials from riders of that era. 
If only the Spanish authorities would DNA test the blood found in the raids on Fuentes' offices, then there would be no more questions around who his clients were. I'm guessing that there are a lot of powerful people in the sports world, not only cyclists, that are moving behind the scenes to stop that from happening. DNA testing and Fuentes co-operation (forced or unforced) to unpick his coded client list is the only to be really sure.


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## raindog (9 Feb 2013)

FFS - now Cipo
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-mario-cipollini-was-a-client-of-fuentes


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## rich p (9 Feb 2013)

The shock value registers less with each revelation.


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## oldroadman (9 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> I too hope he hasn't, but I've seen enough in the last few years to be seriously jaded when it comes to denials from riders of that era.
> If only the Spanish authorities would DNA test the blood found in the raids on Fuentes' offices, then there would be no more questions around who his clients were. *I'm guessing that there are a lot of powerful people in the sports world, not only cyclists, that are moving behind the scenes to stop that from happening.* DNA testing and Fuentes co-operation (forced or unforced) to unpick his coded client list is the only to be really sure.


I don't think for a minute the Spanish authorities want to know about what they might find, the results might be too embarrassing.

As 2/3 of his alleged clients were from outside cycling, and the trial judge has ruled against the list being made public, it's not just powerful people in international federations that are likely to be bending the way this is handled. Who could influence a judge so heavily? Only a government, with assurances of lilely consequences of actions?
The judiciary in UK might seem perverese and sometimes a bit daft, but one thing they do seem to guard is their independence and lack of fear in embarrassing governments. Unlike certain other countries in the EU and beyond.


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## ufkacbln (9 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> The "twitterverse" is full of t*ssers who hide behind their user names and make wild accusations based on nothing but the need to start rumours or their own prejudice. Only proven facts matter. Remember the ridiculous thing about a secret motor? More rubbish discussed by people who don't have much of a clue, but a great desire to see their stirrings be "followed". Sad for them, innit?



One of the reasons for the attempts at censorship and establishing responsibility for the contents of what you post


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## laurence (9 Feb 2013)

i don't really have much faith in the Spanish police on this... it's taken them years to make the link that 'maria' may have been mario.

i think it's also a good example of the power of the big money sports that their details aren't being released, just cycling.


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## ColinJ (9 Feb 2013)

rich p said:


> The shock value registers less with each revelation.


In my case, the shock value has almost gone. My reaction to the news about Cipo was: "But of course ..."

I'd be very surprised if Big Mig doesn't join the list in the next year or two, but I would still feel shocked and very upset if Evans, Lemond or Wiggins did.

How disillusioned am I with pro cycling? Let me put it this way - when the Tour came to Britain in 1994, I just had to see it live. I travelled from Yorkshire to Brighton to watch Chris Boardman*** in action. In fact, I paid a lot of money for a seat in the grandstand at the finish line. The Tour is coming to Yorkshire next year with one or two British Tour winners in the peloton and I may not even bother to go and watch the first stage. I will watch the riders pass through Hebden Bridge on the second stage but only because that's less than a 5 minute walk away.

I used to feel bereft at the end of July and that the summer was over almost as soon as it had started. These days, I sometimes forget to watch the odd Tour stage on TV.

I feel the same way about pro cycling now that I would if I caught a partner sleeping with my best friend. I'd remember what the attraction had been, but the relationship would never be the same again!


*** If Boardman turned out to have been a doper, then as far as I'm concerned the cycling decree nisi would become a decree absolute!


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## 400bhp (9 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> I too hope he hasn't, but I've seen enough in the last few years to be seriously jaded when it comes to denials from riders of that era.
> If only the Spanish authorities would DNA test the blood found in the raids on Fuentes' offices, then there would be no more questions around who his clients were. I'm guessing that there are a lot of powerful people in the sports world, not only cyclists, that are moving behind the scenes to stop that from happening. DNA testing and Fuentes co-operation (forced or unforced) to unpick his coded client list is the only to be really sure.


 
Why don't they do it? (DNA test) It's a no-brainer isn't it?


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## 400bhp (9 Feb 2013)

It's all a bit scattergun isn't it.

My money is Fuentes won't be here in 12 months.


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## raindog (9 Feb 2013)

Does anyone else find it depressing that the drugs threads on here are more popular than the race threads?


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## 400bhp (9 Feb 2013)

It's just imitating the reality.


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## jdtate101 (9 Feb 2013)

400bhp said:


> Why don't they do it? (DNA test) It's a no-brainer isn't it?


 
You'd think so wouldn't you. The spanish police and judiciary are just corrupt enough to delay or block it completely, under the influence of some very powerful people. I bet even if all the anti doping authorities in the world applied pressure on the Spanish, they still wouldn't get round to it.


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## 400bhp (9 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> You'd think so wouldn't you. The spanish police and judiciary are just corrupt enough to delay or block it completely, under the influence of some very powerful people. I bet even if all the anti doping authorities in the world applied pressure on the Spanish, they still wouldn't get round to it.


 
That's a bit naughty really Jdate - perhaps a bit jingoistic?

I don't know what it is but none of us here know enough about the case/spanish judiciary to really understand it do we?


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## jdtate101 (9 Feb 2013)

400bhp said:


> That's a bit naughty really Jdate - perhaps a bit jingoistic?
> 
> I don't know what it is but none of us here know enough about the case/spanish judiciary to really understand it do we?


 
Not really, corruption in public office is rife in Spain, just google it!!

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2009/03/why_is_spain_so_corrupt

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...spanish-political-corruption-converted-action

The lack of surprise is understandable. This latest allegation is merely the icing on the cake in a series of corruption cases, which serve to highlight the generally felt disappointment in Spain's public officials – figures involved in almost every conceivable institution in the land, from the judiciary and the police to the crown.


http://soerenkern.com/web/?p=700
according to a new opinion poll conducted by the Madrid-based Sociological Research Center (CIS), an agency that provides the Spanish government with polling data. Only 0.2 percent of those polled believe corruption is “not widespread” in Spain.


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## 400bhp (9 Feb 2013)

It's rife everywhere mate.

Corruption and greed - interchangeable in my eyes.


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## jdtate101 (9 Feb 2013)

Agreed.


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## Flying_Monkey (9 Feb 2013)

He may or may not be, but it seems that Cippolini was almost definitely 'Maria'...


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## raindog (9 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> He may or may not be, but it seems that Cippolini was almost definitely 'Maria'...


as I posted on the previous page.....


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## Flying_Monkey (9 Feb 2013)

raindog said:


> as I posted on the previous page.....


 
Dammit, I thought I had read everything this time...


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## Crackle (9 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Dammit, I thought I had read everything this time...


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## thom (9 Feb 2013)

400bhp said:


> Why don't they do it? (DNA test) It's a no-brainer isn't it?


I think it boils down to blood doping not having been a criminal offence in Spain at the time.
Puerto is a prosecution of doctors who broke health rules regarding storage and transportation of blood products of clients. Cooling blood with cold coke bottles, storing blood in freezer compartments without temperature gauge or back-up mechanism. This is the point of law. I imagine the identity of the legal clients who used the service then is a confidential matter, just as you wouldn't make public someone's health record without their permission, you can't name the clients of this doctor in the legal process.
WADA has been invited to provide a legal justification to take the next step for identification, Fuentes has offered to reveal names in court but the judge told him not to.
They may actually want to expose the sportsmen but can't do so within the law.

If this is the case (I'm not 100% certain), then it is really shockingly disappointing because you could leverage so much knowledge out of the dopers.


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## thom (9 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> The "twitterverse" is full of t*ssers who hide behind their user names and make wild accusations based on nothing but the need to start rumours or their own prejudice.


You say that but cycle chat has a few too. There are tossers wherever you look and certainly twitter has a fair few too but I think there's quite a few in the professional peloton too. On twitter, you don't have to follow them and there are a fair few people there who helped chase down stories about Lance Armstrong. Certainly the Paul Kimmage fund is twitter fuelled. 
Don't knock it until you've tried it is all I'm saying.


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## dragon72 (9 Feb 2013)

I don't understand it when people slag off Twitter. It's like saying "pubs are full of twats". Depends what company you keep.


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## jdtate101 (10 Feb 2013)

I've always wondered why would footballers or tennis people dope. In games with limited aerobic requirements (both are very stop-start) and mostly skill, there seems to be little benefit. Maybe doping to assist recovery, but agin in these types of sport the tank would rarely be emptied. This is one of the main reasons why doping was so vigorous in cycling, it's such an endurance sport that it did have a pronounced effect.
Other sports that I would figure would benefit most would be track and distance runners, triathlon and ironman, rowing and maybe some of the longer swimming events. Obviously pure strength events would benefit from anabolic's, HGH & testosterone such as weightlifting, sprinting etc...

Would be interesting to understand just what some sports people would gain and where....


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## Noodley (10 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> I've always wondered why would footballers or tennis people dope.


 
Perhaps the European and World champions from the Spanish football team might be able to answer that....


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## raindog (10 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> I've always wondered why would footballers or tennis people dope.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-would-do-almost-anything-to-get-an-edge.html


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## raindog (10 Feb 2013)

Jesus, this is gruesome stuff 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-cipollini-used-25-blood-bags-before-2003-giro-ditalia


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## resal (10 Feb 2013)

raindog said:


> Does anyone else find it depressing that the drugs threads on here are more popular than the race threads?


 
It is the moment when the reality of Karl Marx strikes - religion is the opiate of the masses.

About 2005 or 2006 there was a thread on Veloriders in which all the protagonists were debating who would win the Tour and how. "Ooooo my favourite rider will do such and such". It was hilarious. As funny as watching some video of a religious nut telling his followers they would receive their reward in the next life. Just step back and take a look. Just where is this after-life located ? But hey, it is a free World and if somebody has a nice time believing that they are going to be reborn as a butterfly or that Lance could really beat a doped up peloton on quality training, that nobody else could work out how to do - go ahead. The Tour was a giant con as was all the media rubbish associated with it.

Cancellara clean ? Some people must have believed. After last year's MSR it seemed like one heck of a lot of people did.

Take two talents - Obree gets a contract with Le Groupemont and it all falls apart within weeks. He cries "foul" and the system takes the mikey. He ends up hanging from a tree. Boardman rides the Tour does his thing and then goes to Atlanata and is there mixing it with Olano and Big Mig. To believe Boardman was clean would be one massive leap of faith.

Very much more recently - Cooke comes out and gives us a very uncomfortable read, and I don't think we heard 10% of what might follow - rich, powerful, older males running teams, young girls, disempowered by the system, that want to get on - the last 2000 years of recorded history tells us that only leads down one path. Compare and contrast with Cav, (manager adviser is Rob Hayles - he of +50% Heamatocrit fame), later that week. Don't keep F****ng well asking me about Lance and drugs, you f*******ng t********r. Young kid, does not have what it takes to be a top cyclist. Abandons aspirations for being in the sport full time. Tries and then does not like the alternatives, comes back and whips everyone's a r s e, showing talent he previously did not display ?

I went and had a look on youtube, at the stage where Floyd dropped the bunch, caught the break, dropped the break and won by however long the incredible amount was that he won by, to take the Tour. In the post race conference he tells us exactly everything we needed to know. "I will do whatever it takes to win". We now all know it was the mantra that drove Lance and his apparatchiks. How many times did they justify their theft and crimes with those words ? Floyd told us there and then - just as much as Cav has just the other week - don't ask him because......

How easy in a murky, filthy World is it to say well if I don't, the rest will ?

Boardman. Now, if you believe he is clean, you can sleep well in your bed, and I bless you and I am envious. Maybe you will sleep as you did mourning brave Spartacus failing to win the MSR last year. If you take an alternative view then, just like with Lance, you will need to think about the next domino. For Boardman it is a certain Peter Keen. That is a thought which will keep you up at night.


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## rich p (10 Feb 2013)

Resal, I used to consider your posts thought out and reasonable but lately you have become something else. Witchfinders are fine as long as their some evidence, albeit circumstantial, but mud-slinging and condemning riders with no evidence is pointless. The only evidence that you seem to have against Wiggins, Boardman and Cav is that they were/are quite good and they spoke out against doping at various times.


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## Crackle (10 Feb 2013)

resal said:


> All the stuff wot Resal wrote.


 
Whilst I understand where you're coming from, I think you've taken a step beyond cynicism into conspiracy. Your evidence seems to be they were good, they must be doping and whilst I'd be foolhardy to say you are absolutely wrong, so far, there is nothing to indicate you might be right, unless you count the kind of babbling lickspittle that gets spewed out in The Clinic, which I don't.


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## resal (10 Feb 2013)

Do people believe the "reborn" Tyler now he has found Jesus ? 
"Well yes all that stuff about Lance is true", might be a commonly held view. Anything else ? The link from Tyler to Fuentes to Luigi to Cancellara is there for us all to observe. Fundamentally it comes down to whether you believe Tyler in this aspect of what he is saying. Now it is entirely possible that he has told the truth about Lance but has some grudge with Cancellara and is lying about that in order to make life hell for him. I am deeply sceptical about anything coming from these guys but I can lay it against a backdrop of the whole con sold us for some many years. That inclines me to a different view. Might I be wrong ? Most certainly.

Brad - you just have no idea how much I want to believe he is clean. Sorry if you find my concerns worrying. I recognise I am bringing as much fire on my head as was suggested by another poster "try mentioning that Simpson was a drugs cheat and see what response you get!".

The clinic and twitter. That is genuinely bad news if I sound like them ! I will shut up and observe. I did not post on those 2005 and 2006 threads about the likely Tour winners.


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## rich p (10 Feb 2013)

I'd be happy to pursue Wiggins and Cavendish and Boardman if there was any evidence. Their nationality is irrelevant and you do us a disservice to imply that it does. I hold no brief for any drug user in sport - not Cancellara, Voigt or indeed Tommy Simpson for that matter.
Despite what the other poster says, nobody denies Simpson took drugs.


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## Crackle (10 Feb 2013)

resal said:


> The clinic and twitter. That is genuinely bad news if I sound like them ! I will shut up and observe. I did not post on those 2005 and 2006 threads about the likely Tour winners.


 
I wouldn't want you to stop posting and apologise for comparing your post to The Clinic. I just find The Clinic irredeemable in many ways and a lot of the good stuff is buried under dross which makes it quite soul destroying to sift through it.


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## ColinJ (10 Feb 2013)

resal said:


> Boardman. Now, if you believe he is clean, you can sleep well in your bed, and I bless you and I am envious. Maybe you will sleep as you did mourning brave Spartacus failing to win the MSR last year. If you take an alternative view then, just like with Lance, you will need to think about the next domino. For Boardman it is a certain Peter Keen. That is a thought which will keep you up at night.


When I think back to Boardman, I remember him being a great pursuit rider and time triallist but I also remember wondering at the time "How come he is that good but never wins any road races?" rather than "Wow, he is destroying everybody!"


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## Andrew_P (10 Feb 2013)

I must admit reading Wiggo's book about the tour read very much like Armstrongs books about the tour, only replace the French re-con with the altitude of Tenerife. I am not a sports scientist but it came across as a bit daft when Wiggins suggested in his book that he was given specifc Gym weight training to lose weight but gain strength in his upper body.


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## ColinJ (10 Feb 2013)

If you look at the numbers for what Armstrong, Pantani et al were doing up Alpe d'Huez (for example), they were about 10% higher than most experts thought the theoretical limit of human performance was.

Wiggins was producing under that theoretical limit in the Tour last year. It doesn't mean he wasn't cheating but it suggests that he shouldn't have had to.

Even if Armstrong hadn't been caught, his performances made it obvious that he was a cheat. (You don't mysteriously conjure up an extra 10% at the top end of elite sport where the maximum differences between gifted athletes would normally be, say, tenths of a percent.)


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## Hont (11 Feb 2013)

ColinJ said:


> ...his performances made it obvious that he was a cheat.


 
And I think, in the absence of other evidence, that's what drives most people's suspicions. Cancellara would not be a surprise to me for that reason. His performances in the cobbled classics have been truly unbelievable and he was virtually invincible in TTs despite have a bit of a rocking style and sub-optimal position. Being linked to Op. Puerto/Riis/Brunyeel just causes this view to be cemented in my head. Yet there is no real evidence of doping.

Wiggins, by contrast, has never done anything _incredible_ on the road except in TTs. However his TT position is clearly very refined, he has surely the smoothest pedalling stroke in the peloton which combined with the Sky attention to detail (at its most effective in time trials where tactics and other riders do not impede) can explain how exceptional results are achieved from believable power outputs. The rumours about Sky during the last year and problems with Leinders have less weight than those surrounding CSC and Radioshack, so are not enough to alter my opinion that Wiggins is clean.

Two riders, on paper similar performances in time trials over the last two years, similar lack of evidence one way or the other, yet I draw different conclusions based on the evidence of my own eyes.


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## beastie (11 Feb 2013)

Hont said:


> And I think, in the absence of other evidence, that's what drives most people's suspicions. Cancellara would not be a surprise to me for that reason. His performances in the cobbled classics have been truly unbelievable and he was virtually invincible in TTs despite have a bit of a rocking style and sub-optimal position. Being linked to Op. Puerto/Riis/Brunyeel just causes this view to be cemented in my head. Yet there is no real evidence of doping.
> 
> Wiggins, by contrast, has never done anything _incredible_ on the road except in TTs. However his TT position is clearly very refined, he has surely the smoothest pedalling stroke in the peloton which combined with the Sky attention to detail (at its most effective in time trials where tactics and other riders do not impede) can explain how exceptional results are achieved from believable power outputs. The rumours about Sky during the last year and problems with Leinders have less weight than those surrounding CSC and Radioshack, so are not enough to alter my opinion that Wiggins is clean.
> 
> Two riders, on paper similar performances in time trials over the last two years, similar lack of evidence one way or the other, yet I draw different conclusions based on the evidence of my own eyes.



Despite his apparent lack of form Cancellara was good enough to be junior world TT champion(twice), and was described as being "head and shoulders" above the field. Wiggins rode in one of those and was well beaten. Cancellara has always been a great TT'er. I doubt he was doping at 17. I hope he never did, coz I really like his riding. Tom Boonen was just as dominant last year in the cobbled classics-what do you think of his performance?


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## Monsieur Remings (11 Feb 2013)

ColinJ said:


> In my case, the shock value has almost gone. My reaction to the news about Cipo was: "But of course ..."
> 
> I'd be very surprised if Big Mig doesn't join the list in the next year or two, but I would still feel shocked and very upset if Evans, Lemond or Wiggins did.
> 
> ...


 
I think it's important to keep the faith, because I truly believe, beside from not being nationalistic in any kind of way, that the Sky riders of 2012 season were clean and that is such a great thing. I too, would be gutted if there were revelations about Big Mig, particularly, but for me Greg Lemond would be out of the question. 

In fact, okay, if Greg Lemond was ever found to have doped that probably might be it for me actually. He's being touted as the saviour of the sport given his early suspicions of Armstrong and his subsequent vilification for such a stance, regarding his fellow countryman.


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## oldroadman (11 Feb 2013)

Greg, rode in the Hinault era, on a par with him, hmmm.....they must have both been superb clean athletes.


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## ColinJ (11 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Greg, rode in the Hinault era, on a par with him, hmmm.....they must have both been superb clean athletes.


Look at the times on Alpe d'Huez:

Lemond and Hinault, 1986: 48:00
Pantani, 1997: 37:35
Armstrong, 2004: 37:36 
Floyd Landis, 2006: 38:34
There are clearly some dodgy times there, but I don't think that Lemond and Hinault are the riders with them!


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## Crackle (12 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> Greg, rode in the Hinault era, on a par with him, hmmm.....they must have both been superb clean athletes.


 
You think Lemond doped, I'd be interested to here why you think that besides your, by association insinuation, especially given his pretty vehment anti-doping stance and his actions against Armstrong which penalised his business interests. I'm not saying he's a saint, I'm quite willing to believe he's not but I need something more than guilt by association.

Personally I still believe he raced clean in an era when it was still possible to win doing so and before the advantages of blood doping where widespread. Of course I could be naive, I like to think I'm not now but who knows.


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## Hont (12 Feb 2013)

beastie said:


> Tom Boonen was just as dominant last year in the cobbled classics-what do you think of his performance?


No different to Cancellara's. His failed Cocaine tests give an indication on his attitude to drugs.


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## Hont (12 Feb 2013)

Monsieur Remings said:


> I would be gutted if there were revelations about Big Mig, particularly, .


Back to the evidence of our own eyes: do you really think it feasible that someone that big could climb as well as all the skinny, little climbers during the height of the EPO era, whilst riding clean?


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## Hont (12 Feb 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Look at the times on Alpe d'Huez


 
That list suggests non-EPO times start at 41 minutes+.

Strong candidates for riding clean...
41' 46" Cadel Evans
43' 12" Ryder Hesjedal
43' 12" Thomas Danielson
Although those last two clearly rode up together so it's unlikely they were both at their limit and, unless there was a headwind they would not have gained much from slipstreaming. Cadel IIRC did not go from the bottom as there were lots of attacking/slowing but was in front from as soon as he realised the situation. So a sub 41 may be possible clean, depending on what's gone on in the stage beforehand.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Feb 2013)

Hont said:


> No different to Cancellara's. His failed Cocaine tests give an indication where his moral compass on drugs is.


 
I often agree with you but this is pure bollocks. He may or may not be cheating, but arguing that because he is known to have used recreational drugs, he must lack morality is an absurd kind of puritanism as well as being the most tenuous argument by association.


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## Hont (12 Feb 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> this is pure bollocks


You can, of course, disagree, although I'd prefer it done with less aggression  .I recall reading that there is a strong link between recreational drugs and PEDs, which is why I made the point (I've now changed the words to better reflect what I meant). But is it unfair to question the morality of someone who has repeatedly broken the law?

However, when I said "no different to Cancellara's" I meant that his Flanders and Roubaix performances were, to my eyes, unbelievable. The fact that he had 3 times been found to be taking Cocaine reinforced this (my) _opinion_. It suggests that he is someone who is happy to put narcotics into his body and either has no particular regard to rules/laws or lacks self-control. As with Cancellara, there remains no _evidence_ of PED use.


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## Flying_Monkey (12 Feb 2013)

Hont said:


> But is it unfair to question the morality of someone who has repeatedly broken the law?


 
Well, again, if you have the attitude that 'breaking the law' (regardless of the actual morality and effectiveness of the law in question) is in itself a problem then no. But I would suggest that law and ethics have little to do with each other. Law is a reflection of social hierarchy - power. The most you can conclude from Boonen's use of cocaine is that he likes a good time and is perhaps not the most intelligent guy in the world. But that's a long stretch from concluding that he is likely to be a cheat.


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## rich p (12 Feb 2013)

Monsieur Remings said: ↑
_I would be gutted if there were revelations about Big Mig, particularly, ._​ 




Hont said:


> Back to the evidence of our own eyes: do you really think it feasible that someone that big could climb as well as all the skinny, little climbers during the height of the EPO era, whilst riding clean?


 
Indurain has been openly accused of being doped and not even bothered defending himself. I assumed everyone accepted that he was well prepared.


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## BJH (12 Feb 2013)

Cipo, never thought for one minute he that he wasn't using
Big Mig, never thought for one minute that's,be wasn't either
The Badger, surely

GLG never doubted that he was clean, actions words and deeds suggest it. Career robbed by cheats, hence his stance.

For me he was the last clean winner of he TdF up to Cadel.

Boardman, I would put my house on him being clean. I wonder what he wold have won given a level playing field.

Cancellara would be a real shame if he was. Don't quite get he comments about his style on the bike, for me he looks awesome and descends like he's on rails. But solo wins in classics from 50km out are superhuman, so that always leaves a question mark.


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## rich p (12 Feb 2013)

oldroadman said:


> The "twitterverse" is full of t*ssers who hide behind their user names and make wild accusations based on nothing but the need to start rumours or their own prejudice. *Only proven facts matter*. Remember the ridiculous thing about a secret motor? More rubbish discussed by people who don't have much of a clue, but a great desire to see their stirrings be "followed". Sad for them, innit?


 


oldroadman said:


> Greg, rode in the Hinault era, on a par with him, hmmm.....they must have both been superb clean athletes.


 
Hmmm, did your alter ego post the first one?


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## jdtate101 (12 Feb 2013)

I too would bet on Boardman being clean. He was a TT specialist and not much cop at climbing. He made it clear his aim was the prologue TT's and abandoned / crashed out of most of his TdF tours. He was very open about his medical condition (osteoporosis) that required him to inject testosterone (which he refused to take until his career was finished). If you watch his performances in the prologues he gives everything and then appears for the next day's stage, still looking utterly knackered. Not the way we remember LA looking after his "recovery" techniques.


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## Noodley (12 Feb 2013)

Indurain doped.

**Noodley has pointed the witch-finder finger**


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## 400bhp (12 Feb 2013)

It's really sad we have to mention particular cyclists and doping in the same breath.


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## jdtate101 (12 Feb 2013)

http://road.cc/content/news/76144-italian-anti-doping-authority-opens-investigation-mario-cipollini

Well looks like things are hotting up for Super Mario.....I think things are going to get a bit uncomfortable for him soon.


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## raindog (13 Feb 2013)

It really is amazing the way all this is coming back now to bite people's arses. I hope everyone riding now is paying attention.


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## Noodley (13 Feb 2013)

I am. No more cake for me...oh, wait a minute, cake is fine.


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## deptfordmarmoset (13 Feb 2013)

There's a pretty detailed French article covering Manzano's testimony here - http://espagne.blog.lemonde.fr/2013/02/13/radiographie-dun-dopage-de-masse/


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## ColinJ (13 Feb 2013)

Noodley said:


> I am. No more cake for me...oh, wait a minute, cake is fine.


Ah, but if the UCI decided to ban cake, would you carry on 'taking' it?


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## Noodley (13 Feb 2013)

ColinJ said:


> Ah, but if the UCI decided to ban cake, would you carry on 'taking' it?


 
I'd give up.


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## Flying_Monkey (13 Feb 2013)

Cake is a made-up drug anyway...


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## BJH (13 Feb 2013)

jdtate101 said:


> I too would bet on Boardman being clean. He was a TT specialist and not much cop at climbing. He made it clear his aim was the prologue TT's and abandoned / crashed out of most of his TdF tours. He was very open about his medical condition (osteoporosis) that required him to inject testosterone (which he refused to take until his career was finished). If you watch his performances in the prologues he gives everything and then appears for the next day's stage, still looking utterly knackered. Not the way we remember LA looking after his "recovery" techniques.


 
Boardman wasn't abad climber either - dauphine


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