# Appalling Club Run



## DRM (3 Sep 2018)

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this, on Sunday afternoon we got caught up behind what can only be described as the most shambolic club run I have ever witnessed, there was quite a large group of riders, some of whom seemed to think it's acceptable to ride 4 to 5 abreast blocking any chance of a safe pass, they were half wheeling each other, none of them checked behind to see what was going on to their rear, on setting off from one set of traffic lights there was nearly a huge pile up as a couple of them seemed to make a complete pigs ear of setting off causing a mass bunching/slowing/wobbling & panicky unclipping at the rear of the bunch, this went on for about 5 miles before we could safely get past, however more impatient motorists were flying past the following cars & the group in excess of 50mph in a 30 mph zone, which is far from right, and in itself downright dangerous, however if this lot had thinned out to 2 abreast, it would have given the following cars a chance to clear.
I had ridden this route that morning & I think if I had stumbled across this lot whilst out I'd have pulled up & given them 10 minutes to clear off as I would not want to be associated with this lot, or be on the receiving end of abuse because of them.
What made it worse was that they did seem to be quite experienced fit cyclists.
Surely this sort of thing is frowned upon by clubs.


----------



## Biff600 (3 Sep 2018)

Bloody cyclists !!!


----------



## DRM (3 Sep 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> 5 abreast? You must have some very wide roads.


That's the thing, they're not, it actually looked like Britain's slowest, longest bunch sprint


----------



## Drago (3 Sep 2018)

Half wheeling? How dare they do something safer than parallel positioning.


----------



## Bobby Mhor (3 Sep 2018)

Bloody Tour of Britain peleton


----------



## Racing roadkill (3 Sep 2018)

A wide bus is a short bus.


----------



## DRM (3 Sep 2018)

Drago said:


> Half wheeling? How dare they do something safer than parallel positioning.


How is that safe on a group ride, one wobbles, clips wheels & there's a pile of bikes & riders on the floor


----------



## Venod (3 Sep 2018)

What club ?

We have had complaints about bad group riding in my club (I wasn't there but it's believable) this resulted in a Facebook message to all members reminding them of their responsibilities while riding and how a good group operates.
So an email to the club stating your concerns as a fellow cyclist might help.


----------



## Drago (3 Sep 2018)

Riding parallel the rider beside you starts to fall, you have no visual cues, you will almost inevitably go down with him. Watch any pro race pile up on tv to see this in action.

Safest compact formation is for the outside rider to half wheel the inside. They are close enough to communicate verbally with ease - good comms is great for a chat, but also good for passing info about hazards etc. 

If the outside rider goes over it will not affect the inside rider as they will have moved past. 

If the inside rider goes the outside rider has a better view and will pick up more/earlier visual cues and will have a _much_ greater chance of avoiding going down with them.

When formation needs to be broken, narrow street, overtaking a line of parked cars, whatever, the outside rider is better placed to drop back into file AND they present much less hazard to the inside rider while doing so.

This has been experimented and tested at great length in the good old US of A by IPMBA for EMS patrolling - riding parallel is unsafe in any environment, particularly the road.

I mean, what do I know anyway? After all, I only have my own business teaching road and off road skills (the clue is in the Sig.) Old pilots, bold pilots, and club riders.


----------



## DCLane (3 Sep 2018)

Can I ask what club @DRM ?

I'm asking because my club organised a ride yesterday from Mirfield through to Sutton Bank. We had about 130 riders, which were split after about 30 miles into 3 groups. As far as I'm aware, although there were a lot of riders, it was pretty well behaved.

There were also a couple of big sportives on yesterday along with the HSBC City Ride in Leeds.


----------



## pclay (3 Sep 2018)

DCLane said:


> Can I ask what club @DRM ?
> 
> I'm asking because my club organised a ride yesterday from Mirfield through to Sutton Bank. We had about 130 riders, which were split after about 30 miles into 3 groups. As far as I'm aware, although there were a lot of riders, it was pretty well behaved.
> 
> There were also a couple of big sportives on yesterday along with the HSBC City Ride in Leeds.




130?


----------



## DCLane (3 Sep 2018)

pclay said:


> 130?



Yes. It's an annual fundraiser. Marshalling the first section's a bit difficult but we do our best to keep riders 2 abreast, single file if needed. Yesterday's wasn't great for a section of it, hence my asking, but we had it pretty well marshalled the rest of the way.


----------



## colly (3 Sep 2018)

See there will be a whole bunch of people on here who think it's quite amusing, and of course the post begs comical quotations you might get from drivers
(''bloody cyclists', 'don't pay road tax', 'no insurance ' red light jumpers etc etc).

But the reality is that twats like the ones you describe play into the prejudices that more and more drivers and pedestrians have around cyclists and cycling in general. ie they are all selfish, boorish, morons who pay nothing for the roads, never have insurance and should all pass a proper road test before being allowed out and so on.
As a result the dumb drivers who really don't give a flying f*** about cyclists safety will become even more anti cyclist and the growing 'anti' feeling towards bike users will (has?) become the norm. 
The fools you came across are the kind that get all of us a bad name. Now I personally don't really care if other road users think I am an idiot on a bike who has delusions of being a TdF winner or whatever, but what I do care about is that we become seen as fair game. As a result close passes, and aggressive driving around people on bikes is seen as OK.

I'm not giving fools in cars a get out or offering any excuse for stupid or dangerous driving but the antagonism between other road users and cyclists has grown markedly in the past few years. 
As an aside I personally think that as cycling has become more popular and ''trendy'' people who at one time would only drive have ditched the car, moved onto a bike and brought with them all the worst traits of car drivers. Chief of which is... 'F*** you mate the road belongs to me'.

The plain fact is that we have to share the roads and one way to make that safer is for all users to show a little understanding, respect and some simple give and take.

The tw***s you saw make the roads more dangerous for me and my grandkids.


----------



## Ian H (3 Sep 2018)

Even on club runs, riders are still individually responsible for their own behaviour. 
There has been a return to more regulated clubruns in recent years, but club cyclists are just as capable as any others of behaving like complete idiots.


----------



## DRM (3 Sep 2018)

DCLane said:


> Can I ask what club @DRM ?
> 
> I'm asking because my club organised a ride yesterday from Mirfield through to Sutton Bank. We had about 130 riders, which were split after about 30 miles into 3 groups. As far as I'm aware, although there were a lot of riders, it was pretty well behaved.
> 
> There were also a couple of big sportives on yesterday along with the HSBC City Ride in Leeds.


I'd rather not put it on here, but this was going through Rothwell at around 15:30, it was a club not too far from you, there was also one rider from another club that's local to me & slightly further from you with them with them, I know they were nothing to do with the target demographic for the HSBC Ride Leeds.


----------



## DCLane (3 Sep 2018)

DRM said:


> I'd rather not put it on here, but this was going through Rothwell at around 15:30, it was a club not too far from you, there was also one rider from another club that's local to me & slightly further from you with them with them, I know they were nothing to do with the target demographic for the HSBC Ride Leeds.



If that's the case, and we had several other clubs with us, it's worth dropping a note to their secretary. They do get listened to.

Happy for you to PM me and I'll confirm whether or not they were with us: I've had a look on Strava flyby. We were through Rothwell in the afternoon, although my group came through about an hour after this around 16:30.


----------



## DRM (3 Sep 2018)

DCLane said:


> If that's the case, and we had several other clubs with us, it's worth dropping a note to their secretary. They do get listened to.
> 
> Happy for you to PM me and I'll confirm whether or not they were with us: I've had a look on Strava flyby. We were through Rothwell in the afternoon, although my group came through about an hour after this around 16:30.



No problem, I think we are thinking of the same club, I've had a look at their facebook page and indeed they had a large ride on yesterday with visitors from nearby clubs too, I don't do facebook so can't comment on there, I would confirm they would have been heading for the Huddersfield side of Dewsbury.


----------



## DCLane (3 Sep 2018)

DRM said:


> No problem, I think we are thinking of the same club, I've had a look at their facebook page and indeed they had a large ride on yesterday with visitors from nearby clubs too, I don't do facebook so can't comment on there, I would confirm they would have been heading for the Huddersfield side of Dewsbury.



They need to know then please. If I was the club secretary I'd want to - and most clubs can identify which riders were involved. I know I can 

The club secretary rides the same commute as me. If I see him I'll have a word.


----------



## DRM (3 Sep 2018)

I'll leave a message with the secretary, I'm sure they would rather me let them know about it, then have do deal with contacting someone other half to say there's been an accident, some of the overtakes were frankly horrifying.


----------



## Rooster1 (4 Sep 2018)

I don't think it is technically possible to get five abreast on one side of the road is it?


----------



## Tiger10 (4 Sep 2018)

They sound like a bunch of newbies to me and i am sure they will appreciate the warmth and understanding from the cc massive. 

(Damn autocorrect)


----------



## mjr (4 Sep 2018)

Rooster1 said:


> I don't think it is technically possible to get five abreast on one side of the road is it?


Wide single carriageways can be 5m plus shoulders on each side and handlebars 40cm or so, add some wiggle room and so, yes, pretty easily.


----------



## Rooster1 (4 Sep 2018)

There was a large cycling event on my Sunday ride route. Incredibly, some riders decided to stop to check directions IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. I passed them and made a comment "NOT THE BEST PLACE TO STOP". It happens


----------



## mjr (4 Sep 2018)

colly said:


> I'm not giving fools in cars a get out or offering any excuse for stupid or dangerous driving but [...]


It looks like you are. Even with the widest standard single carriagway lane width of about 5m, motorists still need to use the oncoming lane to overtake safely and so the cyclists' formation is basically irrelevant, so the main thing 5 abreast does is make the group shorter and quicker and easier to pass. Maybe they should have broken into tens or dozens but that's about all and it would have coalesced temporarily at the junction metioned anyway.

Motorists were doing 50 in a 30 to overtake, according to the OP. Where's the condemnation and calls for penalties?


----------



## mjr (4 Sep 2018)

Rooster1 said:


> There was a large cycling event on my Sunday ride route. Incredibly, some riders decided to stop to check directions IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. I passed them and made a comment "NOT THE BEST PLACE TO STOP". It happens


Not incredible at all. Some flimsy-tyred riders don't like to pull into field gateways for such things. Even persuading them not to stop on blind corners or junctions can be a challenge!


----------



## kingrollo (4 Sep 2018)

Theres bad drivers , and of course there are bad cyclists.

I really don't know many people who ride more than 2 abreast. They would be politely told not to in the club I ride with.

Pulling away from lights and junctions can be difficult - esp on a hill - all sorts of minor scenarios can arise, which means the pull away click in isn't as sleek as you would like.


----------



## kingrollo (4 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> It looks like you are. Even with the widest standard single carriagway lane width of about 5m, motorists still need to use the oncoming lane to overtake safely and so the cyclists' formation is basically irrelevant, so the main thing 5 abreast does is make the group shorter and quicker and easier to pass. Maybe they should have broken into tens or dozens but that's about all and it would have coalesced temporarily at the junction metioned anyway.
> 
> Motorists were doing 50 in a 30 to overtake, according to the OP. Where's the condemnation and calls for penalties?



Couldn't agree more - filing out to single file IMO makes it more difficult for the driver. Bunch up to two abreast the motorist is overtaking for a shorter amount of time.


----------



## colly (4 Sep 2018)

It's not about blaming idiot drivers or blaming idot cyclists. It's simply about being aware of other road users. It works both ways.


----------



## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> It looks like you are. Even with the widest standard single carriagway lane width of about 5m, motorists still need to use the oncoming lane to overtake safely and so the cyclists' formation is basically irrelevant, so the main thing 5 abreast does is make the group shorter and quicker and easier to pass. Maybe they should have broken into tens or dozens but that's about all and it would have coalesced temporarily at the junction metioned anyway.
> 
> Motorists were doing 50 in a 30 to overtake, according to the OP. Where's the condemnation and calls for penalties?


Well said.
Cars have no right of way over cyclist or other road users. Would they have passed in the same manner if they were horses not cyclists?


----------



## DRM (4 Sep 2018)

This has now been dealt with, with a polite email to the club concerned I’m not naming names and in certain parts of their route there was no safe place to pass, we did hang back until it was safe & clear, however some impatient idiots didn’t, yes they need prosecuting for the bad driving, let’s just say having done a little research there will have been some very tired legs in that group dealing with some long dragging inclines, which aren’t massively steep but seem to never end, that I know from experience can be torture after a long hard ride, yes part of that road will take 4/5 abreast but if perhaps if they had split into two groups it may have been better for all road users at the time, thankfully the majority of drivers gave them a wide berth when passing.


----------



## Globalti (4 Sep 2018)

I blame the clubs for failing to teach inexperienced riders the rules of group riding.


----------



## mjr (4 Sep 2018)

colly said:


> It's not about blaming idiot drivers or blaming idot cyclists. It's simply about being aware of other road users. It works both ways.


I suggest rereading the opening post without the exhaust-clouded glasses on. The very little criticism of the motorists was itself excused by "however if this lot had thinned out to 2 abreast, it would have given the following cars a chance to clear" which seems illogical and absurd, but there's plenty of blaming cyclists who seem to have little nothing wrong other than offend some motorists' misconception that they should obey the bad advice in the Highway Code to ride two-abreast to enable motorists to close-pass them - or maybe offended a Road Clubber's sense of style and form?


----------



## User269 (4 Sep 2018)




----------



## derrick (4 Sep 2018)

User269 said:


> View attachment 428533


That does not apply to all roads. you have to be aware of what the road can handle, It's all about common sense. This is where the problem begins. A lot of people do not have any.


----------



## Leodis (4 Sep 2018)

Drago said:


> Riding parallel the rider beside you starts to fall, you have no visual cues, you will almost inevitably go down with him. Watch any pro race pile up on tv to see this in action.
> 
> Safest compact formation is for the outside rider to half wheel the inside. They are close enough to communicate verbally with ease - good comms is great for a chat, but also good for passing info about hazards etc.
> 
> ...



I just hope I am not at the back of your group rides full of half wheelers


----------



## Racing roadkill (4 Sep 2018)

derrick said:


> That does not apply to all roads. you have to be aware of what the road can handle, It's all about common sense. This is where the problem begins. A lot of people do not have any.


Common sense is such a rare attribute it should be classified as a super power.


----------



## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2018)

Globalti said:


> I blame the clubs for failing to teach inexperienced riders the rules of group riding.


Having tried to instil this into many a club group I decided that stabbing myself in the eye was a better use of my energy...


----------



## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2018)

Leodis said:


> I just hope I am not at the back of your group rides full of half wheelers


Explain.


----------



## 400bhp (4 Sep 2018)

colly said:


> I'm not giving fools in cars a get out or offering any excuse for stupid or dangerous driving but the antagonism between other road users and cyclists has grown markedly in the past few years.



Not in my experience. The roads are safer. Anecdotally I put this down to car drivers getting used to cyclists and also more people cycling who are themselves car drivers. 

FYI I ride 8k miles a year and half of those are commutes.


----------



## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2018)

400bhp said:


> Not in my experience. The roads are safer. Anecdotally I put this down to car drivers getting used to cyclists and also more people cycling who are themselves cyclists.
> 
> FYI I ride 8k miles a year and half of those are commutes.


Indeed! Cycle-commuting in London in the early 80s was like riding in a war zone compared to today!


----------



## 400bhp (4 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> It looks like you are. Even with the widest standard single carriagway lane width of about 5m, motorists still need to use the oncoming lane to overtake safely and so the cyclists' formation is basically irrelevant, so the main thing 5 abreast does is make the group shorter and quicker and easier to pass. Maybe they should have broken into tens or dozens but that's about all and it would have coalesced temporarily at the junction metioned anyway.
> 
> Motorists were doing 50 in a 30 to overtake, according to the OP. Where's the condemnation and calls for penalties?



I generally agree however, as with most things it's not black and white. What needs to be considered is the sight lines for traffic behind. As a simple example, riding in a tight bunch taking up one side of a carriageway is probably safest and most helpful.convenient on straight roads. On a road which has bends then riding slightly narrower but longer, may be better as traffic behind has the opportunty to see further along the road and provide more opportunities to pass safetly.

Anyway, people need to chill.


----------



## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2018)

400bhp said:


> I generally agree however, as with most things it's not black and white. What needs to be considered is the sight lines for traffic behind. As a simple example, riding in a tight bunch taking up one side of a carriageway is probably safest and most helpful.convenient on straight roads. On a road which has bends then riding slightly narrower but longer, may be better as traffic behind has the opportunty to see further along the road and provide more opportunities to pass safetly.
> 
> Anyway, people need to chill.


Again... cars have no automatic right to overtake other road users. They can bloody-well wait until it’s safe to pass without endangering anybody.


----------



## 400bhp (4 Sep 2018)

Yes I agree. And the Rulez:

My safety
Your safety
My convenience
Your convenience


----------



## Fab Foodie (5 Sep 2018)

User13710 said:


> My pet hate on group rides revolves around those people at the back who shout 'CAR UP!' at the first hint of a vehicle approaching, then even in sight of a blind bend they single out and cower in the gutter, letting the car through to intimidate those of us taking the lane at the front to stop a dangerous overtake.


Absolutely.


----------



## alicat (5 Sep 2018)

> My pet hate on group rides revolves around those people at the back who shout 'CAR UP!' at the first hint of a vehicle approaching, then even in sight of a blind bend they single out and cower in the gutter, letting the car through to intimidate those of us taking the lane at the front to stop a dangerous overtake.



Oh dear, that's me told.... 

Not sure the people at the front of my club rides are applying that much thought to the situation.


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

User13710 said:


> My pet hate on group rides revolves around those people at the back who shout 'CAR UP!' at the first hint of a vehicle approaching, then even in sight of a blind bend they single out and cower in the gutter, letting the car through to intimidate those of us taking the lane at the front to stop a dangerous overtake.


Why don't you ride at the back to show them how it should be done, then?


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

400bhp said:


> I generally agree however, as with most things it's not black and white. What needs to be considered is the sight lines for traffic behind. As a simple example, riding in a tight bunch taking up one side of a carriageway is probably safest and most helpful.convenient on straight roads. On a road which has bends then riding slightly narrower but longer, may be better as traffic behind has the opportunty to see further along the road and provide more opportunities to pass safetly.
> 
> Anyway, people need to chill.


Amen to the latter, but can you draw a bendy road situation where it actually makes a difference, where motorists could overtake cyclists riding line astern safely but not bunched?


----------



## 400bhp (5 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> Amen to the latter, but can you draw a bendy road situation where it actually makes a difference, where motorists could overtake cyclists riding line astern safely but not bunched?


I’m rubbish at drawing, in particular in 3-d.


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

400bhp said:


> I’m rubbish at drawing, in particular in 3-d.


2D would suffice, but it's difficult to draw a physical impossibility...


----------



## 400bhp (5 Sep 2018)

Yeah whatever.

Bored.

You carry on.


----------



## ianrauk (5 Sep 2018)

colly said:


> but the antagonism between other road users and cyclists has grown markedly in the past few years.



I would like to echo what others have said about this.
Cycling to work in the 80's (when I first started commuting) and into the 90's, you really were putting your life in vehicle drivers hands. It really wasn't pleasant at all. There was very little cycle awareness amongst drivers and there was even less cycling infrastructure then there is now. There was no sanctuary of bus lanes, ASL's or cycle lanes. Cycling these days is 1000% better.


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

User13710 said:


> Indeed, but the level of ride I'm talking about is one where any shout is taken as a warning to "get out of the way of the car", unfortunately. It's a social club ride rather than a "club run".


This doesn't make the caller at fault. The problem sounds like it's the riders singling out in an ill-advised place. The purpose of the "car back" (or "car up" if you're CTC or "car down" if you're BC around here) call is information, not instruction.


----------



## Fab Foodie (5 Sep 2018)

User13710 said:


> I often do, thanks very much.


I wasn’t going to mention it ;-)


----------



## Fab Foodie (5 Sep 2018)

Car-up/back/front/wherever, should IMO be used if there is some form of imminent or unexpected danger, not for every bloody car that comes along. If you’re riding on roads there will be cars coming by at regular intervals, ride accordingly.


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Car-up/back/front/wherever, should IMO be used if there is some form of imminent or unexpected danger, not for every bloody car that comes along. If you’re riding on roads there will be cars coming by at regular intervals, ride accordingly.


Depends on the roads. I don't think it's only for the dangerous ones but I agree that it shouldn't be used on roads with loads of cars. Edit: because it adds no useful information.

Anyone heard it on a London main road?


----------



## rugby bloke (5 Sep 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> It's very complicated isn't it. I'm glad I ride on my own most of the time.


I was about to say the same thing ! I'll stick to being a miserable solo cyclist ...


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

rugby bloke said:


> I was about to say the same thing ! I'll stick to being a miserable solo cyclist ...


You're missing out. There are few better things than riding as part of a touring group IMO. No worries of being left stranded alone by anything and many pairs of eyes to see trouble coming, yes, but also spot lovely sights and let each other know.


----------



## rugby bloke (5 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> You're missing out. There are few better things than riding as part of a touring group IMO. No worries of being left stranded alone by anything and many pairs of eyes to see trouble coming, yes, but also spot lovely sights and let each other know.


Fair point - I do enjoy the occasional group ride, and it does come as a pleasant change. Would not want to do it regularly - too many rules in every other aspect of my life without having to worry about a whole new set when I'm on my bike.


----------



## Venod (5 Sep 2018)

rugby bloke said:


> Fair point - I do enjoy the occasional group ride, and it does come as a pleasant change.



My thoughts too, now and again is OK .

But you have to ride at the groups pace and not your own, you have to go where the ride organiser takes you even if you dislike the route, you have to stop when the group stops, you have to be constantly alert to what the rider in front of you is doing. you have to put up with loads of shouting and pointing and you have to constantly point out hazards along the way, you have to turn up when the ride starts (usually earlier than I like) you have to put up with club politics, you have to wear a helmet.

I have done a lot of club riding but I am enjoying my solo rides far more nowadays, I may not renew my membership next year then I won't be able to ride with them.


----------



## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

rugby bloke said:


> Would not want to do it regularly - too many rules in every other aspect of my life without having to worry about a whole new set when I'm on my bike.


Depends on the group IMO.


Afnug said:


> But you have to ride at the groups pace and not your own,


Well, sort of. You're not tied in, so you can always ride off the front or excuse yourself off the back, but then you're on your own, no longer part of the group, at least for a while. One of the group on Saturday decided to visit a shop near the route and then chase back on... which was fine.



Afnug said:


> you have to go where the ride organiser takes you even if you dislike the route, you have to stop when the group stops,


See above, plus routes of some groups are open to negotiation... I guess it depends how organised the ride is. I can understand that certain led rides that insist on routes being test-ridden no more than 72 hours ahead might not be open to variation.



Afnug said:


> you have to be constantly alert to what the rider in front of you is doing.


Same as ever. More of a problem on tight formation rides, I guess.



Afnug said:


> you have to put up with loads of shouting and pointing and you have to constantly point out hazards along the way,


I'm surprised that this is so unpopular... I guess some groups go a bit overboard with it.



Afnug said:


> you have to turn up when the ride starts (usually earlier than I like)


Yeah, I find it really awkward getting up for 10am 



Afnug said:


> you have to put up with club politics,


You can just ignore them and trample straight through it 



Afnug said:


> you have to wear a helmet.


Definitely not for CUK or CN groups. Not for the few Sustrans groups, as far as I can tell.



Afnug said:


> I have done a lot of club riding but I am enjoying my solo rides far more nowadays, I may not renew my membership next year then I won't be able to ride with them.


I don't think Sustrans or any CN groups make riding conditional on membership, but I think you only get a limited number of non-member rides with CUK.



Dogtrousers said:


> The Fridays have the perfect solution to the pace problem. You can ride as fast as you like - so long as you don't mind spending quite a bit of time standing around marking junctions in between your fast rides.


I like the theory but I've yet to see any other group make it work in practice: either someone "forgets" and rides past the front or sets off before the All-Upper gets to them.


----------



## Venod (5 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> Definitely not for CUK or CN groups. Not for the few Sustrans groups, as far as I can tell.



That's good, unfortunately its a club rule, no helmet no ride.



mjr said:


> I don't think Sustrans or any CN groups make riding conditional on membership, but I think you only get a limited number of non-member rides with CUK




There are still a lot of group rides round here organised on a ad hoc basis, so if I do leave the club I can always find a group to ride with if I feel the need.
The club politics got so bad last year a member formed a Strava group called Cycling Not Politics which is very popular and people post rides if they want company.


----------



## Alan O (5 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> I don't think Sustrans or any CN groups make riding conditional on membership, but I think you only get a limited number of non-member rides with CUK.


It's a non-member limit of three rides with my local CUK before you have to join, but British Cycling/Let's Ride has no restrictions.


----------



## Leodis (6 Sep 2018)

Fab Foodie said:


> Explain.



Because half wheeling increases the pace of the group, the person next to them attempts to level the group, then the half wheeler increases the pace to half wheel again, before you know it a steady tempo is now flat out, this leaves the person at the back constantly hanging on.


----------



## mjr (6 Sep 2018)

Leodis said:


> Because half wheeling increases the pace of the group, the person next to them attempts to level the group, then the half wheeler increases the pace to half wheel again, before you know it a steady tempo is now flat out, this leaves the person at the back constantly hanging on.


That seems only true if the group is full of ill-disciplined MGIFs who can't hold formation - or possibly if the group hasn't agreed on a staggered formation before someone attempts to ride it.


----------



## Venod (6 Sep 2018)

Do groups ride in a half wheeling pattern? I have never encountered this.
I have experienced what @Leodis refers to, the person instigating the half wheeling usually gets a reputation for it.


----------



## mjr (6 Sep 2018)

Afnug said:


> Do groups ride in a half wheeling pattern? I have never encountered this.
> I have experienced what @Leodis refers to, the person instigating the half wheeling usually gets a reputation for it.


Maybe not exactly half-wheeling but aren't all pacelines staggered if done properly, except a double paceline? Otherwise the rider taking the lead turn isn't setting the pace, is s/he?

And doubles seem rare on open roads in this country because few roads are wide enough.


----------



## Venod (6 Sep 2018)

The only time I have ridden deliberately with overlapping wheels is in an echelon, but you need good wide traffic free roads for this.
A pace line doesn't overlap wheels in formation only when the front rider drops back.
Isn't a double pace line a chain gang?
Chaingangs are quite common in the UK.


----------



## mjr (6 Sep 2018)

Overlapping wheels is not the same as half-wheeling/staggering!

A double paceline is like two chaingangs next to each other rotating opposite directions with those easing back on the outside... looks a bit like 4 abreast from a car following!


----------



## Fab Foodie (6 Sep 2018)

Leodis said:


> Because half wheeling increases the pace of the group, the person next to them attempts to level the group, then the half wheeler increases the pace to half wheel again, before you know it a steady tempo is now flat out, this leaves the person at the back constantly hanging on.


See @mjr response.
Most groups I have ridden just lets the ‘half-wheeler’ disappear up the road alone. It’s a nonsense.


----------



## Venod (6 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> Overlapping wheels is not the same as half-wheeling/staggering!
> 
> A double paceline is like two chaingangs next to each other rotating opposite directions with those easing back on the outside... looks a bit like 4 abreast from a car following!



This is a double pace line ie chain gang.


View: https://youtu.be/f1rXCcNG1GM


----------



## mjr (6 Sep 2018)

Afnug said:


> This is a double pace line ie chain gang.
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/f1rXCcNG1GM



Ah, GCN, givers of the wrong answer to so many cycling questions! What they're calling a double paceline is what others call a rotating paceline. Here's something adapted from one of the classic books which gives the correct definitions: http://www.lostrivercycling.org/paceline.html


----------



## Venod (6 Sep 2018)

It's a common thing to refer ato chain gang as a double pace line, but I see what you mean now.

http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/221/training/cycling-in-a-chain-gang/index.html

When riding a double paceline not in chain gang mode, in my experience the front outside rider pulls in front of the inside rider and the next two outside riders pull to the front and become the front riders.the same manoeuvre as a chain gang, but the front riders stay put for a while, this doesn't require as much road as the example from your link.


----------



## MrGrumpy (26 Oct 2018)

DRM said:


> Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this, on Sunday afternoon we got caught up behind what can only be described as the most shambolic club run I have ever witnessed, there was quite a large group of riders, some of whom seemed to think it's acceptable to ride 4 to 5 abreast blocking any chance of a safe pass, they were half wheeling each other, none of them checked behind to see what was going on to their rear, on setting off from one set of traffic lights there was nearly a huge pile up as a couple of them seemed to make a complete pigs ear of setting off causing a mass bunching/slowing/wobbling & panicky unclipping at the rear of the bunch, this went on for about 5 miles before we could safely get past, however more impatient motorists were flying past the following cars & the group in excess of 50mph in a 30 mph zone, which is far from right, and in itself downright dangerous, however if this lot had thinned out to 2 abreast, it would have given the following cars a chance to clear.
> I had ridden this route that morning & I think if I had stumbled across this lot whilst out I'd have pulled up & given them 10 minutes to clear off as I would not want to be associated with this lot, or be on the receiving end of abuse because of them.
> What made it worse was that they did seem to be quite experienced fit cyclists.
> Surely this sort of thing is frowned upon by clubs.



Just had a debate about cycling more than two abreast, it would seem its more common than I thought ! Dunno what road clubs from round Edinburgh head down the East Coast through Aberlady, Gullane etc but your going the right way about annoying the hell out of all fellow road users  .


----------



## mjr (26 Oct 2018)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just had a debate about cycling more than two abreast, it would seem its more common than I thought ! Dunno what road clubs from round Edinburgh head down the East Coast through Aberlady, Gullane etc but your going the right way about annoying the hell out of all fellow road users  .


And did you remind them that it's as legal for people to cycle as many abreast as will fit, plus it makes the group shorter and easier to overtake?

No-one seems to be telling off the motorists driving around five abreast near me. Double standards.


----------



## MrGrumpy (26 Oct 2018)

Can you show me the link please to where it says that,genuine interest?


----------



## si_c (26 Oct 2018)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can you show me the link please to where it says that,genuine interest?


There is no legislation to dictate how many abreast you can ride, that's the point. The highway code says you should not ride more than two abreast, but that is advisory not mandatory. See here.


----------



## Glow worm (26 Oct 2018)

MrGrumpy said:


> Can you show me the link please to where it says that,genuine interest?



Surrey Police often give useful advice on this:


----------



## MrGrumpy (26 Oct 2018)




----------



## Phaeton (26 Oct 2018)

mjr said:


> No-one seems to be telling off the motorists driving around five abreast near me. Double standards.


Where in Norfolk can you drive cars 5 abreast? you don't even have a 2 lane Motorway down there?


----------



## Shortandcrisp (26 Oct 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Where in Norfolk can you drive cars 5 abreast? you don't even have a 2 lane Motorway down there?



Ah, but we do have a two lane duel carriageway. One lane going one way, another going t’other, with a high tree lined bank running right down the middle between the two.


----------



## Shortandcrisp (26 Oct 2018)

Here it is.


----------



## mjr (26 Oct 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Where in Norfolk can you drive cars 5 abreast? you don't even have a 2 lane Motorway down there?


A short part of the A149 is five lanes one way, four the other. Still single carriageway. I suspect there may be other similar craziness on the A1270 (dual carriageway) and A140 (mostly single) in Norwich.

No motorways but parts of the A11 get treated like one, although several junctions are on the level. Its cycleways are an intermittent bad joke until near Norwich and its city council's influence takes over from Highways England's contempt.


----------



## HLaB (26 Oct 2018)

MrGrumpy said:


> Just had a debate about cycling more than two abreast, it would seem its more common than I thought ! Dunno what road clubs from round Edinburgh head down the East Coast through Aberlady, Gullane etc but your going the right way about annoying the hell out of all fellow road users  .


I suspect I do if they were on road bikes. Sounds like the riding standards have went down. There used to be ride leaders and frequent lectures about more than two abreast when I last rode with them.

As an aside although in inconsiderate and inadvisable apparently according to one police force down here riding more than two abreast isn't illegal


----------



## Trickedem (26 Oct 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> THere's one a bit like this in Kent, not far from Rochester - I forget exactly where. I think it's actually a one way system imposed on two parallel country lanes. I privately named it "the UK's weediest DC" when I rode through it. Looks like I may have underestimated the competition.


 It is just outside Eccles, near Aylesford. No real option but riding in the middle of the lane.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3...93.853676&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656


----------



## Globalti (27 Oct 2018)

Late to this discussion but here's my ha'p'orth: I've ridden with a couple of local clubs and not really enjoyed it, for several reasons. It seemed to me that there was a woeful lack of leadership with nobody running the ride or instructing the inexperienced members. There was very little discipline and as the ride progressed it blew apart as people peeled off to go home or do their own thing. I also noticed that there was always at least one rider who was antagonistic towards drivers, which embarrassed me. So I'll stick with riding solo or with a buddy when I get back on the bike next spring.


----------



## rogerzilla (27 Oct 2018)

One of the local clubs here is like the Keystone Cops on bikes. I remember getting stuck behind them one Sat morning on my bike, along with some very irate drivers. Three or four abreast and all over the width of the road.

Then they got to a crossroads, one rider had a clipless moment and they fell like dominoes


----------



## MikeG (27 Oct 2018)

Globalti said:


> ...... when I get back on the bike next spring.



That's one of the good things about clubs: peer pressure can keep you riding through the winter!


----------



## Globalti (27 Oct 2018)

I usually ride through winter, even on snow, but I've bust my collar bone.


----------



## MikeG (27 Oct 2018)

Pffffff...........Wuss. Jockeys are back in the saddle 10 days after breaking their collarbone.


----------



## pawl (27 Oct 2018)

I look back62 yers aged 15 when I joined the local section of the C.T.C.this i now consider an apprenticeship in group riding ,yes some of us would blast off the front on a hill alway with the approval of the group leader on the proviso that we waited at the top.
What is so special about about Sportives.Club runs were in the summer rarely below 80 miles and often 100 plus and were all day rides to some venue .Tlme or disttance didn’t matter enjoyment did.The only challenge rides were the old reliability rides.
A few weeks ago I was passed by one of these pace lines,no warning if I had to move out I would have brought down the whole group.From what i here Sportives i by some as Road race. why not join B C get license and ride a road race
I have never ridden a sportive so perhaps I am doing some of the partisipents an injustice.
I haven’t ridden with a club for many years I did look at a local club,but decided against it as they appeared to ride the same rout visited the same cafe every Saturday,they are a club which a racing heritage but the Saturday rides are split into social group fastest riders

Like others on here I like to ride at my own pace and distance.when I say my own pace it is quite slow and just about fast enough to prevent me falling off.
As some one said in a previous post count the smiles not the miles.


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

rogerzilla said:


> One of the local clubs here is like the Keystone Cops on bikes. I remember getting stuck behind them one Sat morning on my bike, along with some very irate drivers. Three or four abreast and all over the width of the road.
> 
> Then they got to a crossroads, one rider had a clipless moment and they fell like dominoes


Are you sure you weren't watching a cheesy Bond film while driving?

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS9tCEBFDfs


----------



## mjr (29 Oct 2018)

pawl said:


> I have never ridden a sportive so perhaps I am doing some of the partisipents an injustice.


Most of them seem OK, but it does seem like you can almost guarantee there will be a few nobbers in a field of a couple of hundred... it's almost like a certain fraction of people are nobbers whether motoring or cycling. Who'd've thunk it?


----------



## DCBassman (30 Oct 2018)

<sarcasm>
Surely not! Nobber cyclists?
</sarcasm>


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (2 Nov 2018)

Afnug said:


> What club ?
> We have had complaints about bad group riding in my club (I wasn't there but it's believable) this resulted in a Facebook message to all members reminding them of their responsibilities while riding and how a good group operates.


I don't think you're in the same as me anymore?, but one further 'to the east'? (with mutual friends in it?)



ianrauk said:


> I would like to echo what others have said about this.
> Cycling to work in the 80's (when I first started commuting) and into the 90's, you really were putting your life in vehicle drivers hands. It really wasn't pleasant at all. There was very little cycle awareness amongst drivers and there was even less cycling infrastructure then there is now. There was no sanctuary of bus lanes, ASL's or cycle lanes. Cycling these days is 1000% better.


I recall those days too
Part of my commute to/from work (when I worked in Leeds, near Tetleys) was around a very busy junction of the M1 (now renamed M621
@DCLane , @Afnug, @colly and a few others may know it)

'Bell Hill', where the A61 (Leeds-Wakefield road) descends towards Stourton, & has that 'off-slip running alongside it, for a few hundred yards, then becomes next 'on slip' is also to your left

Then even worse was the homeward journey; 3 lanes
Right as the 'on-slip' to the M1
Centre, for A61
Left for Pontefract/Castleford

And I wanted the centre lane
National speed limt, seemingly every other driver in the wrong lane

Nowadays the Hill itself is 40MPH, & a bus-lane, not a dual-carriageway
Then, there used to be the (not traffic-lighted) turn onto Wood Lane, by the JawBones!!


----------



## Venod (2 Nov 2018)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I don't think you're in the same as me anymore?, but one further 'to the east'? (with mutual friends in it?)



Yes I am still a member of KV its a long time ago since I was a member of FRC.

Bell Hill, terrible junction for cyclists I have negotiated it a few times, but certainly couldn't have copped with it every day, same with your return, I didn't like going that way in the car never mind the bike.


----------



## ianrauk (2 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Maybe my memory is at fault but I'm sure there were bus lanes, and bikes allowed in them, when I used to ride up and down the Wandsworth Rd in the 80s. I seem to remember having a shouted argument with a bus conductor in Camberwell on this matter in about 1983. I could be wrong though.
> 
> But in general, yes. It was horrible back then.




There were a few, not many though. Certainly not as many as there are now.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (2 Nov 2018)

Afnug said:


> Yes I am still a member of KV its a long time ago since I was a member of FRC.
> 
> Bell Hill, terrible junction for cyclists I have negotiated it a few times, but certainly couldn't have copped with it every day, same with your return, I didn't like going that way in the car never mind the bike.


I worked in Leeds, for 10 years, so used it a lot
Sometimes I'd go up Sharp Lane (at Robin Hood), & down through Belle Isle, but the natives weren't that friendly!!!


----------



## User6179 (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Are you sure you weren't watching a cheesy Bond film while driving?
> 
> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS9tCEBFDfs




Film trivia
The cyclist at the front is the Director of the film.


----------



## DCLane (2 Nov 2018)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> I worked in Leeds, for 10 years, so used it a lot
> Sometimes I'd go up Sharp Lane (at Robin Hood), & down through Belle Isle, but the natives weren't that friendly!!!



That's my route into Leeds, joining the road up/down at Middleton. Most of the time it's OK, I've got a late evening at the moment and last night was a bit challenging.


----------



## mjr (2 Nov 2018)

Eddy said:


> Film trivia
> The cyclist at the front is the Director of the film.


One of the ones wearing legwarmers in summer to avoid being seen unshaven?


----------



## User6179 (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> One of the ones wearing legwarmers in summer to avoid being seen unshaven?



I never even noticed that, the one with Festina logo on his top.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (2 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Are you sure you weren't watching a cheesy Bond film while driving?
> 
> View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YS9tCEBFDfs




One of the very few Ferrari models I like, but the 'hard-top' instead please

That said, I'd be happy if it came with Famke Janssen installed in it


----------

