# Bikes for people not interested in cycling



## snorri (17 Aug 2019)

https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/blog/2019/07/01/a-bike-for-people-who-arent-interested-in-cycling
Or could be a description of why utility cycling has gone in to deep decline in the UK.


----------



## Drago (17 Aug 2019)

Bone idle laziness and a self entitled culture is why utility cycling had gone down the U bend here.


----------



## Globalti (17 Aug 2019)

The Dutch took the decision to cycle in the seventies. It was made easier by the flatness of the country and compactness of the towns and cities. The Dutch are by their nature relaxed, friendly and egalitarian whereas the British are xenophobic, selfish and ignorant, which is why we were so easily conned into voting to leave the EU.


----------



## SuperHans123 (17 Aug 2019)

The essence of cycling


----------



## Crackle (17 Aug 2019)

Globalti said:


> The Dutch took the decision to cycle in the seventies. It was made easier by the flatness of the country and compactness of the towns and cities. The Dutch are by their nature relaxed, friendly and egalitarian whereas the British are xenophobic, selfish and ignorant, which is why we were so easily conned into voting to leave the EU.


I think if that was an advert, the ASA might ban it under the new rules about stereotyping, however there might be some truth in there about the differences in national outlook but it's always difficult to pin down exactly what they are and more importantly why they are. It has always struck me as pointless to advocate Dutch style cycling here in the UK though.


----------



## sleuthey (17 Aug 2019)

This touches on the thread I raised recently in the commuting section about incentives to cycle rather than drive. Basically the less hassle and faf that's involved the more people are likely to stick at it. The Dutch seem to have done this by designing convenience into their bikes.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2019)

A good article in many ways, but you can't really blame the type of bikes being available to buy for the decline in utility use in the UK though. Traditional roadsters were still in mass production during the 1980's, yet the decline in utility riding started long before that. The reasons are much more complex than simply saying people don't ride because roadsters aren't common bikes.
Many UK towns have become pretty grim places over the years, and become dumping grounds for the sort of anti-social scum no-one wants to live next to. Therefore a lot of people who could afford to, moved further way from where they worked and drove to work. That also meant they lived further way from things like shops and public services, so it became more practical to drive to get your shopping or visit the library, than to ride a bike or walk. 
For cycling to ever once more become a mass transport activity, people will need to be willing to live near to where they work, so all the run down urban dumps will need to be cleaned up and all the antisocial behaviour stamped out. Until that happens, people are going to continue to live in what they perceive as "nice" areas miles away from work and shops and public facilities, and they are not going to return to cycling on any great scale.


----------



## Rickshaw Phil (17 Aug 2019)

*Mod note:*

We're not getting off to a good start so far with the nationalist stereotypes, political comment and phrases like "antisocial scum". The linked article is interesting and there is some good potential for discussion. Try to keep it nice if this thread is going to stay open.

Thanks.


----------



## Cycleops (17 Aug 2019)

I think the main reason why people moved out of towns and away from their work was the ever escalating cost of inner city housing. Driving it before that in forties and fifties they were dirty smelly places. Anyone remember the smogs?
Now with the advent of the clean up has heralded the rise of bikes for commuters like the Brompton. Completely different to the situation in Holland.


----------



## Globalti (17 Aug 2019)

There was an interesting thread going on UKClimbing about teenagers' apparent lack of interest in alcohol. I chipped in with a point similar to that of SkipdiverJohn above, that people now live so far from their place of work that the old "industrial drinking" days of their grandparents have finished, where people would stop at the pub on the walk home from work and neck a few pints then stagger off home. People live too far from work to cycle or drink. We are the poorer for it in so many ways.

Conversely many small towns and villages whose branch lines were axed by Beeching probably now have enough commuters to support a light commuter rail service, if only the line could be reinstated.


----------



## Gravity Aided (17 Aug 2019)

The Dutch, in the 70's, found the number of traffic fatalities unacceptable, so they banned traffic in the cities to a great extent, and built infrastructure accordingly.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o


----------



## Gravity Aided (17 Aug 2019)

I think if I was given the choice of driving in a DAF, or riding a bike, I'd choose the bicycle.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (17 Aug 2019)

At the risk of incurring the wrath of people on here, I'd like to point out a slight contradiction common on this (and other fora) and that is when someone posts looking for a bike to start off on, maybe to commute a few times a week and the occasional weekend jaunt along a canal or the like.
Invariably, people are directed towards something new, minimum spend approx 500 and above.
I understand this is a cycling forum, populated by enthusiasts, but I think it should be remembered there is another category of cyclist too.

The Dutch language differentiate between a cyclist (wielrenner - think of a cycling enthusiast) and someone who cycles a bike (fietser - think utility). It is an interesting distinction.

At risk of getting into national stereotypes, the Dutch are a frugal lot (I've lived here for 20 odd years) and most would baulk at the idea of spending such money on a bike for _that _purpose.
The vast majority of bikes are very old, onetime excellent bikes, most neglected to an unbelievable level - so long as it works it'll be used.

People who are into cycling may well have a second or even a third bike, but for daily, utility use, most are in the former category. 

People will invest in a bike for a specific purpose such as carrying children, or older people for their summer day trips.

If I landed up into the city I live in, I could get a Swapfiets https://swapfiets.nl/en/ for Euro 16,50 per month - including all repairs (& flat tyres!), or pick up a second hand bike for less than Euro100. If that has a puncture, I can drop it into the bike shop in the train station and have my puncture repaired while I work. There are a *lot *of people here who cannot fix a puncture!
I know an accomplished engineer who maintains machines in a large factory. He'll happily improvise repairs on his car, camper, caravan, but an issue with his bike? Down to the shop. He doesn't see himself as a cyclist.

Sometimes I think that the cycling activists forget that the only way they will get the infrastructure and respect they believe they deserve is when they realise that there are a large group in the middle of the extremes between "cycling is the only way forward" and "all cyclists are b******s". These people don't want to spend a lot of money on an idea before getting a decent chance to try it out, they don't want to get shouted at if they ask about wearing a Hi-Viz or a helmet, they don't want to be bamboozled by specs. They just want to get on a bike and ride. 

I think when all _those_ people start getting out on their bikes, clunkers or not, then there will be an attitude change and better infrastructure.


----------



## vickster (17 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> At the risk of incurring the wrath of people on here, I'd like to point out a slight contradiction common on this (and other fora) and that is when someone posts looking for a bike to start off on, maybe to commute a few times a week and the occasional weekend jaunt along a canal or the like.
> Invariably, people are directed towards something new, minimum spend approx 500 and above.
> I understand this is a cycling forum, populated by enthusiasts, but I think it should be remembered there is another category of cyclist too.
> 
> ...



To be fair, quite a large number of the newbies who sign up looking for bike advice say they have a budget of £500 and may be using cycle to work to fund or want new because they don't know what to look for in a used bike in terms of condition, or they don't want to have to spend money on maintenance (especially if it means paying a mechanic to do what might be required) and want the peace of mind that not unreasonably comes with buying a new bike wth a warranty or they are concerned about buying stolen (not an unwarranted fear in the UK when looking for a cheaper bike) . Thus, often advice is given to address that is requested. Also, plenty of people actually like to have a nice bike even for utility use and if they have the financial wherewithal then why not. Especially if it's the first bike bought in adulthood say


----------



## Racing roadkill (17 Aug 2019)

Dutch bikes are brilliant things. They really are simplicity x infinity. No oily trouser legs, not much maintenance required, if you use airless tyres then there’s even less. If it gets people who really don’t ‘do’ bikes, on bikes, that’s a good thing, because whilst they’re on a bike, they’re not driving, and that’s great news, especially in a city / urban environment.


----------



## Profpointy (17 Aug 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> I think if I was given the choice of driving in a DAF, or riding a bike, I'd choose the bicycle.
> View attachment 480424



I learnt to drive in my Dad's DAF. ... and I can confirm you are absolutely right


----------



## Globalti (17 Aug 2019)

I haven't ridden a Dutch bike but I bet they weigh a ton so they'd be useless in the hilly parts of Britain.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> At the risk of incurring the wrath of people on here, I'd like to point out a slight contradiction common on this (and other fora) and that is when someone posts looking for a bike to start off on, maybe to commute a few times a week and the occasional weekend jaunt along a canal or the like.
> *Invariably, people are directed towards something new, minimum spend approx 500 and above..*



Not by me they're not! I always advocate the spending of the bare minimum amount necessary to acquire a useable and reliable bike, especially if someone is only "trying out." cycling and there is no guarantee they will enjoy it or stick at it. You won't find me advocating purchases of £5-600 minimum level bikes on the C2W scheme, which seems to be the standard response of many. Instead I'll suggest they trawl the small ads or auction sites and try to source a basic steel hybrid or rigid MTB secondhand for as little cash as possible, and get riding on that and use it to become familiar with routine maintenance and repairs.


----------



## Slick (17 Aug 2019)

I must admit, on a recent trip to the Netherlands I stopped more than once just to watch in awe at the sheer number of people on bikes and the different type of people from all ages and backgrounds. I did wonder about a couple of things though, like would we be as successful at sharing our cycling facilities with mopeds and how long would it take some wee ned on a scooter to flatten someone? I also wondered what affect the weather would have on anyone not interested in cycling, cycling. I've discovered that I love the challenge of so called poor weather but I'm not sure everyone else would feel the same.


----------



## Gravity Aided (17 Aug 2019)

No such thing as bad weather, provided you have good gear.















Within limits, of course.


----------



## Slick (17 Aug 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> No such thing as bad weather, provided you have good gear.
> View attachment 480495
> View attachment 480496
> View attachment 480497
> ...


Agreed, but would that be the same for people just interested in getting from A to B in the most efficient fashion possible?


----------



## Gravity Aided (17 Aug 2019)

Yes, I think clothing becomes a bigger consideration, the more you cycle. I commuted from work for some time, and soon found it necessary to have good clothing, coats, etc. for that. Bicycle as well, although I used a heavier, older Schwinn MTB for the commute, it was also a very quality machine.


----------



## Smokin Joe (17 Aug 2019)

Helmets put a lot of would be casual cyclists off. They just want to ride a bike with the minimum preparation and expense and it is surprising how many non cyclists think they are a legal requirement.


----------



## Rusty Nails (17 Aug 2019)

I volunteer at a community bike workshop that refurbishes and sells old bikes. I always enjoy the test rides on the Dutch and Dutch style bikes we get. They are always very comfortable and I feel quite calm and stately riding them.

My normal riding involves a fair number of hills and lasts between 20 & 30 miles, or shorter off-road rides so I stick to my road, hybrid and mountain bikes, but a Dutch style bike for the weekly trip to work or shopping is definitely on the cards.


----------



## DCBassman (17 Aug 2019)

Rusty Nails said:


> I volunteer at a community bike workshop that refurbishes and sells old bikes. I always enjoy the test rides on the Dutch and Dutch style bikes we get. They are always very comfortable and I feel quite calm and stately riding them.
> 
> My normal riding involves a fair number of hills and lasts between 20 & 30 miles, or shorter off-road rides so I stick to my road, hybrid and mountain bikes, but a Dutch style bike for the weekly trip to work or shopping is definitely on the cards.


This is precisely why I snapped up an old mixte at the dump recently. Stately. I like that.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2019)

It's somewhat ironic though, that people insist on referring to traditional roadsters as "Dutch bikes", when the origins of the design are actually English! Many parts of the world ended up using English-style roadsters for mass transport because, at the time, we manufactured and exported vast amounts of goods to all those countries where we had influence or a strong trade relationship.


----------



## Vantage (17 Aug 2019)

If there's one thing that confuses me, it's why people insist on spending up to a grand on a bike to ride to work simply because they're available on ctw. We see it all the time. They end up with the lightest carbon fibre, skinny tyred, mudguardless, rackless, slammed for racing road bikes with the most useless gears ever to do a 10 mile trip to work having never been serviced or looked after properly where it'll sit outside all day waiting for johnny lightfingers to come along and nick it for drug money.
It's like buying a Ferrari for the purpose of nipping to Tesco for the shopping.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (17 Aug 2019)

vickster said:


> To be fair, quite a large number of the newbies who sign up looking for bike advice say they have a budget of £500 and may be using cycle to work to fund



Not disputing that. But I'd like to know _why _that is the starting point?
Is it the Bike to Work scheme allows people to buy a "free" bike?
Is it that there are not many utility/functional bikes (at least in comparison to NL) that they have nothing to base their target on?
Is it marketing? Once you start to look, especially online, you start getting hit with all kinds of info and ads. How many people buy things (not just bikes) with features they do not need because the marketing told them they "need" it? Starting off, people are more more susceptible to such messages.



vickster said:


> or want new because they don't know what to look for in a used bike in terms of condition, or they don't want to have to spend money on maintenance (especially if it means paying a mechanic to do what might be required) and want the peace of mind that not unreasonably comes with buying a new bike wth a warranty


One of the points made in the article that my anecdotal experience backs up is that there are a lot of regular Dutch people on bikes who know next to nothing about fixing a bike. So the question is why such a culture difference? Perhaps one of the reasons is that the bikes are pretty much indestructible and tyres are built for protection not speed?
Is it that there is such an infrastructure in NL to deal with this (repair shops at most train stations that will fix basics) because of the density of regular people on bikes?


vickster said:


> or they are concerned about buying stolen (not an unwarranted fear in the UK when looking for a cheaper bike) .


In fairness, that's everywhere. Until a recent rebuilding of the local train station I could walk down, hand over a 20 and point out the bike I wanted stolen to be delivered to me personally. Bike theft happens everywhere!



vickster said:


> Thus, often advice is given to address that is requested.


That's fair enough.
Sometimes I wonder if the people asking the questions actually know what they are asking about. 

I used to sell things to people and in my experience, when people picked up ideas of what was "best" from external sources rather than their own experience, they rarely knew what they were looking for, or at least didn't get the value of their purchase. 

What we never get is any feedback on are the numbers of people who go out, get a new bike and give up after a while.


vickster said:


> Also, plenty of people actually like to have a nice bike even for utility use and if they have the financial wherewithal then why not. Especially if it's the first bike bought in adulthood say


Here's the thing - the Dutch market is full of early adopters. New technology, new concepts - they love them. Yet the majority of the population ride around on bikes that many here on this forum would not consider, or indeed advise someone to buy. _Why?_

I understand the arguments you are making, I guess my question is why are those arguments so powerful in one country and not another?

Don't get me wrong, people here buy good bikes too. I recall being in a specialist shop as a lady was picking up her brand new Santos Rohloff Touring bike with lots of bells and whistles. Cost? 4k. I asked her where she was going for her first tour to be told that it was for doing the boodschappen - the shopping!

In any case, I believe that there won't be a significant voice for the cycling community until the voices of the regular person on a bike join with those of the cyclists. And those people need bikes!


----------



## HobbesOnTour (17 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Not by me they're not! I always advocate the spending of the bare minimum amount necessary to acquire a useable and reliable bike, especially if someone is only "trying out." cycling and there is no guarantee they will enjoy it or stick at it. You won't find me advocating purchases of £5-600 minimum level bikes on the C2W scheme, which seems to be the standard response of many. Instead I'll suggest they trawl the small ads or auction sites and try to source a basic steel hybrid or rigid MTB secondhand for as little cash as possible, and get riding on that and use it to become familiar with routine maintenance and repairs.


I know! 
And I've seen many of your posts where you've gone to the effort of suggesting specific bikes for the poster.
But.... it's not the norm and the advice is rarely taken. 
The question is _why_?


----------



## tyred (17 Aug 2019)

I honestly believe the weather is a red herring used as an excuse by lazy people. I live in an area of higher than average rainfall, For almost three years I've walked to work each day (approximately thirty minute walk). I could count on one hand the amount of times I've actually got wet. I am prepared - I keep an umbrella at home and one at work. I have become good at second guessing the weather and whether or not I need protection from the elements.


----------



## Slick (17 Aug 2019)

tyred said:


> I honestly believe the weather is a red herring used as an excuse by lazy people. I live in an area of higher than average rainfall, For almost three years I've walked to work each day (approximately thirty minute walk). I could count on one hand the amount of times I've actually got wet. I am prepared - I keep an umbrella at home and one at work. I have become good at second guessing the weather and whether or not I need protection from the elements.


Talk about the luck of the Irish. You could count on one hand the number of times I got wet this month including an abandoned commute home as the rain was lifting the tar off the road.


----------



## Moodyman (17 Aug 2019)

A lot of people have no understanding of the appliances they use daily and no desire to learn. Their role is that of an end user.

How many UK car drivers understand the oily bits. My wife has been driving for 15 years and not once has she opened the bonnet to do a fluid/oil check.


----------



## classic33 (17 Aug 2019)

tyred said:


> I honestly believe the weather is a red herring used as an excuse by lazy people. I live in an area of higher than average rainfall, For almost three years I've walked to work each day (approximately thirty minute walk). I could count on one hand the amount of times I've actually got wet. I am prepared - I keep an umbrella at home and one at work. I have become good at second guessing the weather and whether or not I need protection from the elements.


People seem to be losing the ability to forecast the weather. 

One I've used over the years is the colour of the light. In a town/city, natural light becomes whiter when you've rain in the air, nearby.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (18 Aug 2019)

Hobbes, you make some good points, but here (Scotland, UK), the situation is thus, ime:



HobbesOnTour said:


> when someone posts looking for a bike to start off on, maybe to commute a few times a week and the occasional weekend jaunt along a canal or the like.
> Invariably, people are directed towards something new, minimum spend approx 500 and above.


Yes, I agree with this, maybe not 500, but at least 400ish for sure, new if possible, second hand only if you've got a friend with bike mechanic knowledge to have a look first.
That's what I would recommend to buy, to a beginner that's only wanting to ride to work or to the shops.
Reasons: there are hills here, we need gears,
I did my flat commute on a 21kg Dutch style single speed for 3 winters, brilliant, never needed to clean it or oil the chain (enclosed), drum brakes.
But if I wanted to nip into Tesco after work I couldn't, because it's up a big hill, when I was on that bike I really had to pick my routes!
That brings me to the next bit about utilitarian cycling here.
I don't know of any commuter that only commutes to work and that's it.
We go to the shops, to visit friends, to the doctors, invariably we go on some social rides - how did I end up on this Alp like mountain, I only wanted to use my bike for cycling to work!  
Did I mention there are hills?
The parks where most cycle routes go through are hilly, canal stretches have sharp, steep hills, the wind and the rain blow in your face most days, that's like more hills!
Yes, the old bikes like @SkipdiverJohn often mentions are OK if you're lucky enough to have a flattish commute, but you couldn't make it to the top of the town shopping centre, as a beginner on the bike.
Imo, for people to stick to utilitarian cycling, bikes should be practical for the area in which they ride.
That takes me to another point: see the second hand 5 speed V-brakes commuting bike?
You'd be hard pushed for a bike shop to want to fix it, the money they'd have to charge for labor time could buy you a new second hand bike ... from them.



HobbesOnTour said:


> They just want to get on a bike and ride





HobbesOnTour said:


> but an issue with his bike? Down to the shop. He doesn't see himself as a cyclist.



Aye, that's what I would like too.
Yeahbut: there are no bike shops, if you find one you need to book your bike in, there's a waiting list, they charge you a fortune, they don't listen to you (unless you ride posh bikes), it's rare their repair works, inevitably you need to go back ... but then they are closed!
That reminds me, a new Cycle Republic opened in the middle of town where there are only office blocks, no attractions for the casual shopper.
They open before the offices open, close late.
The staff told me they get mainly repair jobs from the office cycle commuters.
That is probably a factor that would encourage more workers in that area to cycle to their work, imo.


----------



## tyred (18 Aug 2019)

Moodyman said:


> A lot of people have no understanding of the appliances they use daily and no desire to learn. Their role is that of an end user.
> 
> How many UK car drivers understand the oily bits. My wife has been driving for 15 years and not once has she opened the bonnet to do a fluid/oil check.



My sister seized a Fiesta once due to lack of oil when it had developed an oil leak - she had had it serviced 4,000 miles before so it wasn't due a service, didn't think the pool of oil underneath it in the morning was important and thought the flashing oil light was something to get checked out when the next service was due....poor car.


----------



## classic33 (18 Aug 2019)

I've used a pair of these,





No umbrella though. And currently have one of these,




Picture taken the day after riding it over the Pennines from Irlam.
One local ride done a few times,




The first and last three miles feature in almost any local ride.

Laughed at when I said where I intended riding it, on what should have been a test ride in London. You want a cycle for the shopping, you'd be hard pressed to get a better load carrier than the second.


----------



## steveindenmark (18 Aug 2019)

Globalti said:


> I haven't ridden a Dutch bike but I bet they weigh a ton so they'd be useless in the hilly parts of Britain.


If they had hills dont you think they could design a bike to get up them

The Dutch are bike making geniuses. The "Dutch" bike is designed for a job and not only does it do it well. They last for years.


----------



## snorri (18 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> The question is _why_?


Because in the UK generations of people have been brought up to see bicycles as toys for children or performance machines for sports people, and even the toys for children aspect appears to be dwindling as parents consider the roads too dangerous for their offspring.
Our cycle shops are often staffed by cycle sport enthusiasts who are keen to sell performance machines for sport enthusiasts and have no knowledge of utility cycling. They see nothing wrong with having to lubricate and tweak gears etc at regular intervals, in fact for them the maintenance work is part of the game, unlike the utility cyclist who just wants a bike that will keep going for evermore.
A large proportion of the UK population have never seen bicycles used to any great extent for utility purposes and are quite unable to negotiate with cycle shop staff for a bicycle appropriate for utility needs. One friend wanted to start cycling to work and described the route and distance to the shop owner who sold her a bike without mudguards. I'm sure she didn't notice the time saved in getting to and from work without the weight of mudguards, but she did notice the mud and cow dung splashed on her person, a normal feature of cycling on rural roads without 'guards on the wheels.
For many in the UK the lifetime of a bicycle is the time it takes for the derailleur to go out of adjustment from new, the user gets sick of it, it goes to the back of the shed until the chain solidifies with rust then is seen as irreparable and goes for scrap.
The UK public see cycle sport on tv but are blind to the army of support vehicles and personnel which follows the parade and is required to keep high performance bikes on the road. They are disappointed and disillusioned on discovering they have to learn to be cycle mechanics, something that comes as a shock to people who have been driving many thousands of miles in their cars without opening the bonnet other than to top up the screen wash liquid. It is extraordinary that their simple new bicycle should demand more maintenance attention than their considerably more sophisticated motor vehicle with all its bells and whistles.
On one tour I had to put my bike in for repair in Germany, when I went to collect it the shop owner looked a bit worried and said he regretted he had no direct replacement in stock for my worn out chain wheel but could supply and fit another chain wheel immediately that would be a little heavier but would be cheaper and last longer. It annoyed me to discover that I had paid extra money for this short lived chain wheel when buying my new bike!
Cycle shops will probably say they sell what the public want to buy, but unfortunately with utility cycling reaching such a low ebb in the UK it is all but impossible to get unbiased advice from anyone before buying a new bike, there are so few utility cyclists about these days.
It's grim I tell you.

Edited, minor corrections


----------



## nickyboy (18 Aug 2019)

Cycling used to be utilitarian in nature in UK but inevitably as we have got richer we have adopted other means of transport

The question is really why has it reduced in UK but why hasn't it reduced in Netherlands.

Netherlands is flat. It's also significantly drier and warmer than the UK on average. We can spend whatever we like on infrastructure to match the Dutch but you can't overcome topography and climate hurdles. It's no surprise that the one city in UK that goes some way matching Dutch utilitarian cycling, Cambridge, is very flat and also in the warmest/driest part of the country


----------



## All uphill (18 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Not disputing that. But I'd like to know _why _that is the starting point?
> Is it the Bike to Work scheme allows people to buy a "free" bike?
> Is it that there are not many utility/functional bikes (at least in comparison to NL) that they have nothing to base their target on?
> Is it marketing? Once you start to look, especially online, you start getting hit with all kinds of info and ads. How many people buy things (not just bikes) with features they do not need because the marketing told them they "need" it? Starting off, people are more more susceptible to such messages.
> ...


I asked my Dutch son how he chooses a bike. He said he buys something the right size for 100 euro and then uses it until it gets stolen or won't move. I'm amazed how long his old steel clunkers run with broken spokes, creaking bottom bracket, and wonky pedals.

Sample of one I know, but his grandmother buys a new Gazelle every five years.

Purely functional tools to both of them.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (19 Aug 2019)

Pat "5mph" said:


> new if possible, second hand only if you've got a friend with bike mechanic knowledge to have a look first.


I'd agree if buying second hand to have a bike mechanically checked over. But there is still a difference between the NL attitude and the UK attitude. Here it's very much a "so long as it works, I'll take it". It's probably down to the differences in the bikes - hub gearing, drum brakes, dynamo hubs, tough tyres as opposed to the usual UK offerings.



Pat "5mph" said:


> That's what I would recommend to buy, to a beginner that's only wanting to ride to work or to the shops.
> Reasons: there are hills here, we need gears,
> I did my flat commute on a 21kg Dutch style single speed for 3 winters, brilliant, never needed to clean it or oil the chain (enclosed), drum brakes.
> But if I wanted to nip into Tesco after work I couldn't, because it's up a big hill, when I was on that bike I really had to pick my routes!
> ...


I fully understand the hills! 
And that is the huge physical difference between there and here. However, I believe there is far too much emphasis put on weight in the biking community. If I want to ride 200 km in a day, then weight is important. If I want a functional bike and to get fit, weight is far less an issue. It may be an issue in the beginning, but with a bit of practise, development of stamina it becomes less - in my own opinion.
Everybody has their own choices to make.
I'm not a mechanical expert, but surely it's reasonable to use a hub gear with a greater range than would be typical on a Dutch bike?



Pat "5mph" said:


> That takes me to another point: see the second hand 5 speed V-brakes commuting bike?
> You'd be hard pushed for a bike shop to want to fix it, the money they'd have to charge for labor time could buy you a new second hand bike ... from them.
> 
> Yeahbut: there are no bike shops, if you find one you need to book your bike in, there's a waiting list, they charge you a fortune, they don't listen to you (unless you ride posh bikes), it's rare their repair works, inevitably you need to go back ... but then they are closed!


It's exactly the same here. The bigger bike shops will want to sell you a new bike and if you haven't bought your bike from them it's to the back of the queue with you!
But... there are bike shops that specialise in second hand bikes and repairing such machines. They are at least a little friendlier. And, as I said before, most train stations have some kind of a basic bike repair service.
But again, this comes back to bike design too - the Dutch bikes will run much further and longer without tune-ups and adjustments.



Pat "5mph" said:


> That reminds me, a new Cycle Republic opened in the middle of town where there are only office blocks, no attractions for the casual shopper.
> They open before the offices open, close late.
> The staff told me they get mainly repair jobs from the office cycle commuters.
> That is probably a factor that would encourage more workers in that area to cycle to their work, imo.


Something like this could be the future. A different approach to cycling.

There's a reason why so many Dutch people cycle so many clunker bikes. Hills, or the lack of them, is about the only physical reason I can think of. The rest is attitude. OK, the infrastructure certainly helps too. But that will only come when cycling is seen as a mainstream way to travel as opposed to a recreational/sporting pursuit.
If, and it's a big if, that attitude could start to take hold in the UK, more people would be using more bikes, giving all people on bikes a greater, louder and more powerful voice.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (19 Aug 2019)

snorri said:


> Because in the UK generations of people have been brought up to see bicycles as toys for children or performance machines for sports people, and even the toys for children aspect appears to be dwindling as parents consider the roads too dangerous for their offspring.


That appears to be true.


snorri said:


> Our cycle shops are often staffed by cycle sport enthusiasts who are keen to sell performance machines for sport enthusiasts and have no knowledge of utility cycling. They see nothing wrong with having to lubricate and tweak gears etc at regular intervals, in fact for them the maintenance work is part of the game, unlike the utility cyclist who just wants a bike that will keep going for evermore.


There are bike shops like that here, too. Fortunately, there are also shops specialising in the sale and servicing/repair of second hand bikes. An entrepreneurial opportunity, perhaps?


snorri said:


> A large proportion of the UK population have never seen bicycles used to any great extent for utility purposes and are quite unable to negotiate with cycle shop staff for a bicycle appropriate for utility needs. One friend wanted to start cycling to work and described the route and distance to the shop owner who sold her a bike without mudguards. I'm sure she didn't notice the time saved in getting to and from work without the weight of mudguards, but she did notice the mud and cow dung splashed on her person, a normal feature of cycling on rural roads without 'guards on the wheels.
> For many in the UK the lifetime of a bicycle is the time it takes for the derailleur to go out of adjustment from new, the user gets sick of it, it goes to the back of the shed until the chain solidifies with rust then is seen as irreparable and goes for scrap.


Bingo!
My original post was about how such an attitude is often (not always!) perpetuated here and on other forums.


snorri said:


> The UK public see cycle sport on tv but are blind to the army of support vehicles and personnel which follows the parade and is required to keep high performance bikes on the road. They are disappointed and disillusioned on discovering they have to learn to be cycle mechanics, something that comes as a shock to people who have been driving many thousands of miles in their cars without opening the bonnet other than to top up the screen wash liquid. It is extraordinary that their simple new bicycle should demand more maintenance attention than their considerably more sophisticated motor vehicle with all its bells and whistles.


I understand, but it is less of an issue here and road cycling is a very big sport in NL.



snorri said:


> Cycle shops will probably say they sell what the public want to buy, but unfortunately with utility cycling reaching such a low ebb in the UK it is all but impossible to get unbiased advice from anyone before buying a new bike, there are so few utility cyclists about these days.


It's very much the same here, in the big or specialised bike shops. Generate demand and the supply will follow.
That was the point I was trying to make.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (19 Aug 2019)

nickyboy said:


> Cycling used to be utilitarian in nature in UK but inevitably as we have got richer we have adopted other means of transport
> 
> The question is really why has it reduced in UK but why hasn't it reduced in Netherlands.
> 
> Netherlands is flat. It's also significantly drier and warmer than the UK on average. We can spend whatever we like on infrastructure to match the Dutch but you can't overcome topography and climate hurdles. It's no surprise that the one city in UK that goes some way matching Dutch utilitarian cycling, Cambridge, is very flat and also in the warmest/driest part of the country


I'll accept the hills, but..... surely it's possible to have a bike as reliable as a Dutch bike with gearing to suit hills? Not mountains, just hills.
The weather, I think, is more psychological.
I used to be one of those who'd avoid cold and wet like the plague. Then I realised it wasn't so bad. Then it became less bad and just a different aspect to cycling. With the right mindset, it can be overcome.
One thing about the Dutch, is that they are very practical. They'll have very practical outerwear to get to the pub in winter, but once inside, they'll drop the outerwear to display the designer gear.
The fashion displays on Geordie Shore (especially in winter!) always used to raise incredulous cries here! 

And.....by your own admission, utility cycling used to be more popular. Perhaps the weather has changed, but the topography hasn't.


----------



## Blue Hills (19 Aug 2019)

Globalti said:


> whereas the British are xenophobic, selfish and ignorant, which is why we were so easily conned into voting to leave the EU.


That's an incredibly sweeping statement in so many ways.
Would you say the same about any other country on the planet?
The greatest resistance to utility cycling I have come across (as opposed to look at me me in my fetching mamil kit) is in southern italy. *Won't bore you with the multiplicity of reasons given and implied not to pedal.
* And as you insisted on a gratuitous brexit reference, casual unchallenged racism to boot.


----------



## Blue Hills (19 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I know!
> And I've seen many of your posts where you've gone to the effort of suggesting specific bikes for the poster.
> But.... it's not the norm and the advice is rarely taken.
> The question is _why_?


Image? Folk more concerned about how they look/come across to others in their chosen world/clique than how they feel in themselves riding whatever?. The idea that new is always best, that manufacturers and marketeers are devoted solely to just making things better and better for us?


----------



## KneesUp (19 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> ... a lot of people who could afford to, moved further way from where they worked and drove to work. That also meant they lived further way from things like shops and public services, so it became more practical to drive to get your shopping or visit the library, than to ride a bike or walk.


With the odd exception, British cities aren't that sprawling though - I lived in the South Manchester suburbs as a kid (nice, middle class suburbs) and it was still only 5 miles to the city centre. I live in Sheffield now (10th biggest city in the UK) and 8 miles from the city centre looks like this even on a main road (A625):


----------



## Gravity Aided (19 Aug 2019)

In the States, the distances are a bit immense , but the cities end quite abruptly. In my area, subdivisions abut cornfields, as mine does. But a ten mile trip to work, each way. Church as well. And work is nowhere near the southern edge of our medium sized twin cities.


----------



## palinurus (19 Aug 2019)

My Elephant bike does a lot of these things but it would be way better with Dynamo lighting (like my winter commuter), so far I've used blinkies but they've not been very reliable. No chaincase but I've had it over 18 months and haven't touched the chain- not even a wipe and lube, I use it for shopping and local trips- it just doesn't get the mileage to require much work- plus if it's raining hard I go shopping when the weather improves.


----------



## BurningLegs (19 Aug 2019)

I have often wondered why the government don't do more to incentivise electric bikes in the UK. Electric bikes are great for hilly terrain and the same for utility cycling with a bit of storage.


----------



## Nibor (19 Aug 2019)

I have just pulled the trigger on an Orbea Katu 20 2020 (have to wait until mid September for it) for just this purpose simple no froills pootleing and short shopping trips.


----------



## DRM (21 Aug 2019)

Having just got back from the Atlantic coast of France, I noticed this year a huge amount of bikes being used as general transport, more so than in previous years, but I think that the main drivers for this is threefold, 1 climate which is generally warm to hot and dry, you don't have to think too hard about clothing, 2 Geography it's quite a flat area, 3 Parking is horrendous with narrow streets & lots of tourists, and the infrastructure is there with cycle routes following the coast and the roads into towns too, in the city's inland it was easier & quicker to cycle.
Bike wise, the locals all seemed to be using old steel MTB's with rigid forks, usually Decathlon branded Rockriders or B'Twin newer versions, they had child seats on them, or a rack, even the trail gator tag along thing, but all were not cherished, just used, in the UK the areas I know that have a lot of utility riding is just because they're flat (Hull & York) and parking in York is also difficult to say the least.


----------



## Paulus (21 Aug 2019)

Blue Hills said:


> Image? Folk more concerned about how they look/come across to others in their chosen world/clique than how they feel in themselves riding whatever?


I was in Milan a few weeks back, and I know the weather there is much more conducive to cycling, but the amount of cyclists was amazing. Women wearing skirts/dresses on all sorts of bikes, there are several bike hire schemes, and men wearing suits and "ordinary" everyday clothing. Trust the Italians to look stylish on a bike.


----------



## Blue Hills (21 Aug 2019)

Paulus said:


> I was in Milan a few weeks back, and I know the weather there is much more conducive to cycling, but the amount of cyclists was amazing. Women wearing skirts/dresses on all sorts of bikes, there are several bike hire schemes, and men wearing suits and "ordinary" everyday clothing. Trust the Italians to look stylish on a bike.


Ah but that's the north. Lots of cycling in Ferrara as well. Head to the depths of the south and you'll find a different story.


----------



## confusedcyclist (21 Aug 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> The Dutch, in the 70's, found the number of traffic fatalities unacceptable, so they banned traffic in the cities to a great extent, and built infrastructure accordingly.
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o



Don't underestimate the impact of the two big oil crisis of the 70s too. NL imported virtually all of its oil, and their economy was hamstrung by OPEC embargoes, whereas we still had north sea production to smooth out the worst of it. Motor centric society is an aberration of the 20th century glut in energy. Sooner or later our government will realise that as oil supply continues to shrink that people will need to take alternative (read less energy intensive) forms of transport.


----------



## nickyboy (21 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I'll accept the hills, but..... surely it's possible to have a bike as reliable as a Dutch bike with gearing to suit hills? Not mountains, just hills.
> The weather, I think, is more psychological.
> I used to be one of those who'd avoid cold and wet like the plague. Then I realised it wasn't so bad. Then it became less bad and just a different aspect to cycling. With the right mindset, it can be overcome.
> One thing about the Dutch, is that they are very practical. They'll have very practical outerwear to get to the pub in winter, but once inside, they'll drop the outerwear to display the designer gear.
> ...



Utilitarian cycling in UK used to be more common because we were poorer and couldn't afford other means of transport. As soon as we became richer, we ditched the bikes which weren't much fun on hills, in the rain, on dark winter days and started travelling by car.

I wonder what the level of utilitarian cycling is in places like France, Germany etc? I get the feeling we are looking at Netherlands and saying "we should be like them" but maybe it's the Netherlands that's the odd one out due to topography, infrastructure planning foresight etc etc


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (21 Aug 2019)

nickyboy said:


> I wonder what the level of utilitarian cycling is in places like France, Germany etc? I get the feeling we are looking at Netherlands and saying "we should be like them" but maybe it's the Netherlands that's the odd one out due to topography, infrastructure planning foresight etc etc



Anyone who thinks there is going to be a wholesale change away from driving to cycling is living in cloud cuckoo land. Realistically, we _might_ get a few more percent of cycling, and a few less percent driving for local journeys, but that will be the limit of it. Any change will be marginal, and in terms of overall road miles covered by all means, pretty insignificant. Cycling has a lot of downsides, not least the fact it is really only practical as solo transport for journeys that do not require anything bulky or heavy to be carried.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (21 Aug 2019)

nickyboy said:


> Utilitarian cycling in UK used to be more common because we were poorer and couldn't afford other means of transport. As soon as we became richer, we ditched the bikes which weren't much fun on hills, in the rain, on dark winter days and started travelling by car.
> 
> I wonder what the level of utilitarian cycling is in places like France, Germany etc? I get the feeling we are looking at Netherlands and saying "we should be like them" but maybe it's the Netherlands that's the odd one out due to topography, infrastructure planning foresight etc etc



The reasons you give for switching to other means of transport apply universally. It just seems like not al countries ditched the bike to the same extent as the UK.
There's still rain, and dark winter days in NL. Less hills, certainly, but a lot of wind in places.

Is utility cycling as prevalent in other countries? Purely using my own eyes not as prevalent in places in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, but probably on a par with Denmark. Having said that, there is still a lot of utility cycling.
I was very surprised with the level of utility cycling in Switzerland. And they're not short of hills! 

One thing to remember is that E-bikes are also quite common here. There are a few local commuters I see regularly on powerful (registered) E-bikes.

There is definitely infrastructure and cycling is very high on the consciousness level. For example, for roadworks etc. diversions are clear and easy to follow for bikes. Sometimes easier than for cars.  For infrastructure, though, there has to be demand.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (21 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Anyone who thinks there is going to be a wholesale change away from driving to cycling is living in cloud cuckoo land. Realistically, we _might_ get a few more percent of cycling, and a few less percent driving for local journeys, but that will be the limit of it. Any change will be marginal, and in terms of overall road miles covered by all means, pretty insignificant. Cycling has a lot of downsides, not least the fact it is really only practical as solo transport for journeys that do not require anything bulky or heavy to be carried.



I'm kind of surprised with that.
I think the barriers to cycling are mainly psychological. Cycling in rain, hills, etc. 
The fact is people used to do it. People can do it again.

It cries out for a grassroots movement. 
Bike co-ops that take donor bikes, do them up, sell them on, run maintenance days. Perhaps teach road skills. Organise "cycle Trains" to get kids cycling to school. For heavier or bulky transport there are cycle organisations in a few cities that have cargo bikes, some even electric assist, that people can hire for moving stuff. Not your washing machine, sure, but your music collection? No problem.

Not militant, angry cyclists vs the world. Regular people helping regular people get around by bike.


----------



## Gravity Aided (21 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I'm kind of surprised with that.
> I think the barriers to cycling are mainly psychological. Cycling in rain, hills, etc.
> The fact is people used to do it. People can do it again.
> 
> ...


That's what we do, pretty much a place for the rich to get rid of their bikes, and the poor to get a nice bicycle. We have some of the best cycled working poor populations around. We also make kids bikes safe for them to ride, as it seems those who look after them don't know or care that their kids bikes have bad, or no brakes, or tubes, or a pedal. Sad, but at least we can help out.


----------



## User169 (21 Aug 2019)

Yes, NL has a high degree of utility cycling, but these are usually very short trips. Faced with a commute over 5km and the Dutch will pile into their cars. And they absolutely love cars - higher private ownership rates than the UK. Not entirely surprising given the poor train service.


----------



## nickyboy (21 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> The reasons you give for switching to other means of transport apply universally. It just seems like not al countries ditched the bike to the same extent as the UK.
> There's still rain, and dark winter days in NL. Less hills, certainly, but a lot of wind in places.
> 
> Is utility cycling as prevalent in other countries? Purely using my own eyes not as prevalent in places in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, but probably on a par with Denmark. Having said that, there is still a lot of utility cycling.
> ...



I suspect you're right about cycling infrastructure.

What is interesting is the two countries you mention as having the most utility cycling are by far the flattest countries in Europe. Can't be a coincidence surely? Perhaps it's as simple as that. Cycling by non-cyclists (ie people who just ride their bike to get from A to B) is heavily dependent on how hilly it is where they live?


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (21 Aug 2019)

DP said:


> Yes, NL has a high degree of utility cycling, but these are usually very short trips. Faced with a commute over 5km and the Dutch will pile into their cars. And they absolutely love cars - higher private ownership rates than the UK. Not entirely surprising given the poor train service.



This is the thing; for really short journeys cycling has door to door convenience and can genuinely save time as well as money. A 3 mile ride is 15-20 minutes. Using a car for that distance really saves no time, and if you take it easy, you aren't going to arrive dripping with sweat and looking bedraggled, which is a major barrier to bike riding any significant distance. You've got to find your keys, get the car out, possibly lock your garage and shut your front gate (if not parked on street) behind you. Then you've got to get to your destination, park your car somewhere close, and possibly have to walk some distance to your final destination. The faffing around at either end of a car trip is the same, regardless of the distance, so the longer the journey is the more it favours using the car. 
The general population is NOT going to suddenly decide to ride 10 mile car trips by bike instead, no matter how much hardcore cyclists on here think they should. It just ain't going to happen. Two or three miles each way is realistic, if it's just one person point A to point B, not needing to lug much stuff with them. Even achieving that is a challenge, because I'm sure we all know some right lazy b'stards who won't even walk half a mile to get their morning paper and a pint of milk despite having the same number of legs as the rest of us. If we really want cycling to increase it's all the sub-mile car drivers, bus riders, and minicab users that need to be persuaded to ride.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (22 Aug 2019)

nickyboy said:


> I suspect you're right about cycling infrastructure.
> 
> What is interesting is the two countries you mention as having the most utility cycling are by far the flattest countries in Europe. Can't be a coincidence surely? Perhaps it's as simple as that. Cycling by non-cyclists (ie people who just ride their bike to get from A to B) is heavily dependent on how hilly it is where they live?



I don't want to keep harping on about this, but utility cycling was far more prevalent in the UK before. And the hills are not new. Gears and now E-bikes help significantly with hills. I'm thinking hills are an excuse, not a reason.

By the way, Limburg in NL is pretty hilly. Still lots of bikes down there. 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN54oOMVrXQ


----------



## HobbesOnTour (22 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The general population is NOT going to suddenly decide to ride 10 mile car trips by bike instead, no matter how much hardcore cyclists on here think they should. It just ain't going to happen. Two or three miles each way is realistic, if it's just one person point A to point B, not needing to lug much stuff with them. Even achieving that is a challenge, because I'm sure we all know some right lazy b'stards who won't even walk half a mile to get their morning paper and a pint of milk despite having the same number of legs as the rest of us. If we really want cycling to increase it's all the sub-mile car drivers, bus riders, and minicab users that need to be persuaded to ride.



The thing is, I think it's more to do with attitude than anything else.
I got rid of my car 2 years ago and while my 40 odd km commute is considered a bit strange at work, it is one of the best parts of my day. I have rented a van once when moving furniture. I either use a train, bus or bike, sometimes a combination.
If someone suggested that to me 4 years ago, I'd have laughed at them. I never thought I'd ride a bike in winter. I never thought I'd do my shopping on a bike. I never thought I could do without a car. But here I am, saying it's not a problem.
But..... I think the alternatives (bus and train) are excellent, if not always the most convenient.

Sure, not many people are going to swap a 10 mile journey in a car for one on a bike.
But someone who can cycle 1 mile, can soon cycle 2 and so on. Of course there's a limit. But the more people get used to a bike the more they realise they can do - so long as the bike is up to it.
Which brings me back to the start of the thread.... bikes for people not interested in cycling. They should be simple, strong and be able to be used in all kinds of scenarios.


----------



## Smokin Joe (22 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Sure, not many people are going to swap a 10 mile journey in a car for one on a bike.
> But someone who can cycle 1 mile, can soon cycle 2 and so on. Of course there's a limit. But the more people get used to a bike the more they realise they can do - so long as the bike is up to it.
> Which brings me back to the start of the thread.... bikes for people not interested in cycling. They should be simple, strong and be able to be used in all kinds of scenarios.


Everyone on this site rides a bike because they like cycling. It is easy to forget that most people just don't have any desire or interest in it. It's not about the bike, there are loads of reasonably priced machines of decent quality out there, but most people don't give a fig and would never ride one.


----------



## User169 (22 Aug 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> But..... I think the alternatives (bus and train) are excellent, if not always the most convenient.



Dunno about buses, but the Dutch train system is dire. Making a scheduled connection is the exception rather than the rule.

I'm speaking here some one who spent 2,5 years commuting between Delft and Amsterdam, 2 years between Delft and Utrecht and now between Delft and Belgium. 

And it's going to get worse as network approaches peak capacity.

Costs are reasonable though, I'll give it that.


----------



## tyred (22 Aug 2019)

A large part of it is to do with attitude in many ways. 

We have been sold the idea that car ownership is the badge of success and therefore people aspire to owning one and then for many to own a better one. When I was a boy, we put posters of Ferraris and Porsches on our bedroom walls - not a poster of a Ford Escort 1.3 Popular Plus or a Rover 213. I well remember the ridicule of Eastern Bloc cars, yet they did the same job of taking people from A to B and plenty of Western products were just as badly built in those days. It really is about image. For many the car is a status symbol; park a BMW 740i in your drive way and it announces to the world that you've done well for yourself in the eyes of many. For such people, the bicycle is associated with poverty and they wouldn't lower themselves to travel by one.

In 1906, Henry Ford sold the idea of freedom with his Model T and in 1906 rural America he may very well have been right as basically nobody else had cars but today far too many exist and in many ways they restrict our freedom but for many, they believe car ownership gives them freedom. 

Nowadays an entire generation have grown up with Mummy and Daddy driving them the most ridiculous short journeys whereas kids growing up in times past just walked or cycled for the most part. My ex has 3 teenage daughters and so much of her time was given towards driving them stupidly short distances around town - journeys that a fit, healthy teenager ought to have been able to complete faster on foot most of the time due to traffic congestion. I used to have to bite my tongue as my views on her doing this may not have been popular...

People perceive that cycling is dangerous and I can perfectly understand this. It's not helped in the country the so called Road Safety Authority trying to encapsulate everyone in helmets and hi-vis. There is also the question of cycle paths which actually put cyclists in more danger than they would otherwise be. I do see hope though, the efforts to educate young drivers at driving test level seem to work. The dangerous overtakes I get are usually from middle-aged people. Young drivers seem to give lots of room and hang back until there is nothing coming.

People think that cycling is difficult, and if you are unfit then it will be, not helped by the fact that many try cycling on a bike that doesn't fit or isn't adjusted to fit them properly, don't know to inflate tyres, oil chains etc so through lack of knowledge make cycling more difficult than it needs to be. You don't need an expensive bike - just one which fits, works as it should and has sensible gear ratio(s).


----------



## Blue Hills (22 Aug 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Everyone on this site rides a bike because they like cycling.



I got into cycling after I wrote off a car - and like Hobbes found the idea, suggested to me, that I could shop by bike bizarre. But I took to it immediately and found it liberating.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (22 Aug 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Everyone on this site rides a bike because they like cycling. It is easy to forget that most people just don't have any desire or interest in it. It's not about the bike, there are loads of reasonably priced machines of decent quality out there, but most people don't give a fig and would never ride one.



Back in the days of mass cycling by the industrial working classes, and low private car ownership, I'm not convinced that every cycle commuter was a cycling enthusiast then either. Some undoubtedly were, but I suggest the majority just viewed it as an affordable way to get to work. The majority of modern day car commuters aren't petrolheads either, but the fact that the interior of cars are warm and dry whereas riding bikes can be cold and wet, is a massive plus point to even the most unenthusiastic car owner.



tyred said:


> We have been sold the idea that car ownership is the badge of success and therefore people aspire to owning one and then for many to own a better one............….. It really is about image. For many the car is a status symbol; park a BMW 740i in your drive way and it announces to the world that you've done well for yourself in the eyes of many. For such people, the bicycle is associated with poverty and they wouldn't lower themselves to travel by one.



A car IS a badge of success, like it or not. Once upon a time owning a washing machine, or a TV set, or having central heating was also a mark of "success" In the modern world the yardstick is material comfort or lifestyle convenience. Owning a car gives you the choice of not getting soaked on your journey, not having to tolerate antisocial hooligans on public transport, and not relying on the attentiveness of other road users to ensure your safety. Car owners can of course also choose to cycle, but the point is they have the option of riding when they feel like it and driving when they don't. Those who cant afford a car, or can't drive, don't have that choice - and one major measure of "success" in life is the ability to choose things yourself, not have somebody else's choices imposed on you. 



> In 1906, Henry Ford sold the idea of freedom with his Model T and in 1906 rural America he may very well have been right as basically nobody else had cars but today far too many exist and in many ways they restrict our freedom but for many, they believe car ownership gives them freedom.
> 
> Nowadays an entire generation have grown up with Mummy and Daddy driving them the most ridiculous short journeys.



Compared to using horses, early motor vehicle ownership must have been like night and day. Where it has gone wrong is car ownership combined with laziness and the desire to avoid anything requiring physical effort.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (22 Aug 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Everyone on this site rides a bike because they like cycling


I first started cycling for transport, then I started liking it for the convenience, later liking it for the social aspect.
For me, like for @HobbesOnTour and for others that posted up thread, using a bike instead of a car was an odd, impossible idea.
I hate driving, have a license but never actually owned a car because no way I would spend money on something I hate.
Before starting cycling (I was challenged to do it, really ) the thought of a flat 5 mile commute to work never entered my mind.
Truly, to this day, I don't know why it never occurred to me I could cycle instead of taking 2 buses.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (22 Aug 2019)

Seen this?

Ditch cars to meet climate change targets, say MPs https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49425402


----------



## tyred (22 Aug 2019)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Compared to using horses, early motor vehicle ownership must have been like night and day. Where it has gone wrong is car ownership combined with laziness and the desire to avoid anything requiring physical effort.



The car has become a victim of it's own success and refinement and improvements of the design have led to the modern convenience and overuse of the things. A Ford Model T just couldn't be used in the way that you can use a Ford Mondeo today - too temperamental, too demanding in terms of maintenance. If you were to try and use one for the sort of mileage most people do today you'd almost need to employ a full-time mechanic.

As someone who likes and enjoys tinkering with things, a Model T or other early car appeals as a hobby if I had the space and the funds to keep it but I would not like to have it as my only car. If cars hadn't become so reliable and user-friendly I doubt they'd ever have become as successful and as over-used as we now see today. I can leave my Peugeot sitting for weeks at a time if I don't need it and then step into it and expect it to start and drive to the other end of the country without issue if I needed to.

You mention horses - as someone from an agricultural background with an interest in farm machinery and it's history, early tractors weren't much use either in the great scheme of things but they very rapidly took over from horses for the simple reason that a tractor doesn't eat anything when it's not being used whereas horses need to graze, hay and oats for winter - a large part of an arable farm was given up to feeding the horses used to work it. Tractors were a worthwhile investment as over time they reduced overheads. I'm sure a largely similar thing happened in the haulage industry for the same reasons which led to lorries we see today.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (22 Aug 2019)

We mustn't forget that many towns since the 80's councils have also made planning decisions to favour households getting in cars to do things they could do on foot or bike previous. One example being the out of or edge of town retail estates.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (23 Aug 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> Everyone on this site rides a bike because they like cycling. It is easy to forget that most people just don't have any desire or interest in it. It's not about the bike, there are loads of reasonably priced machines of decent quality out there, but most people don't give a fig and would never ride one.


I understand that. Most of us like cycling and a lot are quite well educated on the ins and outs of bike design, components, materials and loads of other subjects related to cycling.

Then, when a newbie comes along after being prompted to think about cycling, a lot of the advice is from people who like cycling *to* people who like cycling, when, in fact, the newbie doesn't know if they'll like cycling. They haven't tried it yet! That's not a criticism - it's just a fact. 

I'm running out of ways to say the issue is with attitude. And I believe that attitude can and should be changed.

You say "most people don't give a fig and would never ride one".
I agree 100%. 
The real question is why? And is there anything the people on here can do to change that.


Imagine a scenario where someone posts along the lines of....
_Hi. I'm Couldn'tGiveAFig, I'm new here. Haven't cycled in 20 years but want to lose some weight, get fit, maybe cycle to work few times a week and do a few rambles along the canal at weekends. My budget is 500-_

Instead of a discussion about components, the first reply was something like
G_o down to your local bike co-op. Talk to Jim (or Jane!), they'll help you pick out a bike for 100 quid that will do what you want it to do and he'll make sure that it's in a good, roadworthy condition.
Don't forget to sign up for the beginner's guide to bike maintenance to look after the fiddly little things.
Learn all you can on your co-op bike, then when you want to spend your 500 come back and we'll help you get the best bike for you at that price.
Oh! Don't forget to donate your Co-op bike bike for the next person._

Couldn'tGiveAFig's friends, relatives will see and some may be convinced to give it a shot too.

When the obstacles identified on this thread can be overcome more people will get on a bike. At the end of the day, more people cycling is a win win, whether everybody doing it enjoys it or not.


----------



## MichaelW2 (23 Aug 2019)

For a year or so my flattish, dryish Fine City had a dockless bike scheme. The bikes were well equipped utility models with 3 speed hub gears, hub brakes, dynamo lighting, a front basket or rack, mudguards, solid tyres. They were popular with many young "non cyclists" including teenage girls.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (23 Aug 2019)

MichaelW2 said:


> For a year or so my flattish, dryish Fine City had a dockless bike scheme. The bikes were well equipped utility models with 3 speed hub gears, hub brakes, dynamo lighting, a front basket or rack, mudguards, solid tyres. They were popular with many young "non cyclists" including teenage girls.



They obviously weren't that popular, or the scheme created other problems (like nuisance dumping of bikes all over the place), otherwise you wouldn't be talking about the scheme in the past tense.
The only "benefit" I see to dockless schemes is the opportunity they give to to the local yobs to vandalise them and ride around on stolen ones when they have broken off the locking mechanisms. Those schemes only exist because of an abundance of cheap money looking for something to invest in. The only scheme I can see actually surviving long term is the Boris Bike one, because they try to make the bikes available where they are wanted, and they aren't just randomly abandoned in waterways and people's front gardens.


----------



## DRM (23 Aug 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Seen this?
> 
> Ditch cars to meet climate change targets, say MPs https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49425402


There was a piece on BBC Local news for Leeds that was about extending Leeds/Bradford airport, they went on to say that if Leeds Was to meet it’s co2 limits and they included the airport in the allowance, no one could drive anything anywhere


----------

