# Charity rides too expensive?



## Cambie (12 Feb 2015)

Hi all,

As a newbie to cycling, one of the first things I did was look up some charity ride to enter. The London to Brighton ones and the Pru Ride London-Surrey. 

I was gobsmacked at the minimum sponsorship levels. Anywhere from £150 to a whopping £550 for the Ride London - plus entry fee. 

I contacted most to see if this was a target or an obligatory payment. BHF have confirmed it is not an obligatory amount and they are grateful for anything raised which to me is in keeping with a charity's nature. The rest have replied with blunt emails stating the full minimum is due and if it is expected not to be met then not to enter or risk having to pay the difference. 

What does everyone think of this?


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## w00hoo_kent (12 Feb 2015)

Me? If you want to donate money to a charity, donate money to a charity. If you want to ride a Sportive, give Wiggle/your local club or bike shop some cash and ride a Sportive.

The big 'bucket list' events are hugely over subscribed and so can be used as cash cows but the amount of money spent trying to get money because of it annoys me intensely.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

It really annoys me that many of these charities hide it away in the small print that if you don't raise the required amount you have to make up the difference. I don't do rides for charity, but if I did it would be for a charity that would be happy for what ever amount I were to raise.

Best thing people can do is vote with their feet and not sign up to them.


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## Roadrider48 (12 Feb 2015)

Totally agree with Ian....putting a minimum amount you have to raise is a complete p###take IMHO.
Surely the nature of charity is to be grateful for whatever they can get.
Jus blank those greedy tosssers and support the charity of your choice that is grateful for what they get!


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## Tim Hall (12 Feb 2015)

What does everyone else think of this? This "everyone else" wonders why: "As a newbie to cycling, one of the first things I did was look up some charity ride to enter"?


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## w00hoo_kent (12 Feb 2015)

Roadrider48 said:


> Totally agree with Ian....putting a minimum amount you have to raise is a complete p###take IMHO.
> Surely the nature of charity is to be grateful for whatever they can get.
> Jus blank those greedy tosssers and support the charity of your choice that is grateful for what they get!


The problem is that the charity pays for the right to have a position to sell to you in the first place. The only one I've seen quoted is £200 a slot for the Ride London. So they have to cover that cost or they are paying for you to ride which aside from being bad economics is probably against their constitution as a charity.
They then arrange other perks for their riders, they probably send you packs on how to raise money, etc. All of this also costs money. They then have to consider, if they spent that per rider cost on something else, say a liveried Chugger outside Cutty Sark DLR, what would the return be? You have to be more valuable to them than that otherwise, again, what's the point. Aside from the advertising pictures, it's all a bit of a gamble, and at the end of the day they are there to make money, not give you a bucket list experience. That's just a side effect of it all.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> The problem is that the charity pays for the right to have a position to sell to you in the first place. etc etc etc All of this also costs money. etc etc etc



Agree. My beef is not the amount of money these charities want you to raise, rather then they do try and hide the details in the small print. Many a time when I was a Mod here I had to ask Charities that posted rides on the forum to indicate how much had to be raised by an individual and what happened if the amount wasn't reached. Many times I had to ask again and again until I got an answer. That in my book is wrong. A charity wants you to raise how ever much they require, ok that's fine, you make that choice if you want to do the ride. However, be up front about it and don't hide it in the small print.


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## mjr (12 Feb 2015)

I'll probably be doing the Sandringham Samaritans charity ride again this year. Something like £10 minimum donation, 14 miles, competition for fancy dress (this year's theme: wizards and witches). North Somerset used to have the fantastic Weston Hospicecare Strawberry Jam which I did a few times and the Leukemia and Lymphoma Bikeathon.

These grassroots charity fun rides predate the modern sportive charity rides and are a world apart. Slowly the sportives are influencing or taking over some charity rides (partly because British Cycling has no category for fun rides, just a sportive-guideline hammer that they use for screws) and so they gain route signs that remain long after the event, helmet and bike rules and sometimes even physical fitness checks that can prevent participation by the very people the beneficiary charity aims to help!

Even though I can ride much further, I prefer the charity fun rides because they're fun. I now rarely give money to people who say "I'm riding 60 miles for ..." because in most cases, they're not, they're expecting others to give money for a day out and a chunk of it will go in unnecessary organisation, motor vehicles, dead trees, marked-up food and so on - sometimes I will give money directly to the charity but I do not wish to encourage those commercial sportive rides. I've heard similar things from other riders. If you want to ride your bike, ride it. If you want to solicit donations, just do that.


Tim Hall said:


> What does everyone else think of this? This "everyone else" wonders why: "As a newbie to cycling, one of the first things I did was look up some charity ride to enter"?


Well, charities pay people to get these rides in local media (to encourage more donations) and a condition of signing up to some of the smaller charity rides is that they can put out a press release about you in your local news... two drawbacks are that they often present relatively unremarkable cycling as something unusual and newsworthy, and that new riders think that these freak-shows are a good way to ride further.

Meanwhile, the grassroots groups of Cyclenation, CTC, National Clarion, British Cycling and so on have a rather hard time getting their all-welcome rides listed in local media. It's getting a little easier as local news hooks up to social media more, but not very quickly.</grouch>


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## w00hoo_kent (12 Feb 2015)

mjray said:


> I'll probably be doing the Sandringham Samaritans charity ride again this year. Something like £10 minimum donation, 14 miles, competition for fancy dress (this year's theme: wizards and witches). North Somerset used to have the fantastic Weston Hospicecare Strawberry Jam which I did a few times and the Leukemia and Lymphoma Bikeathon.



We did Foulness Island a couple of years ago, again we paid the minimum charitable donation out of our own pockets and did the ride. It sounded like an interesting place to see and a fun thing to do so we paid to do it. I'm fine with that, we look at the cost and decide yes or no. I guess I'm more inclined to do a ride organised by a charity (that was the local Rotary Club I think) than bought in to by one.


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## Dogtrousers (12 Feb 2015)

There exists a ton of sportives, audaxes and other rides that are not over subscribed. So if you want to do a fund raiser, enter one of these, then contact the charity of your choice and say "I'm riding xyz and I'd like to raise some money for you, but I can't guarantee a lot". They will be happy to take your money. 

If you don't want to pay an entry fee you could devise your own challenge on open roads and seek sponsorship for that.


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## byegad (12 Feb 2015)

I used to do one in Durham fairly regularly. Then they wrote to me telling the Durham one was cancelled and my 'local' one would be in Manchester. As their office was in London I asked them how they'd feel if their local one was in Lille? Funnily enough I got no answer.


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## winjim (12 Feb 2015)

The only charity ride I do is a local one run by volunteers to raise money for the village shop!


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## Cambie (12 Feb 2015)

Ok so the whole large charity rides sound like a bit of a circus that maybe are best avoided. Totally different to how I naively imagined them to be. That's a shame.



Tim Hall said:


> What does everyone else think of this? This "everyone else" wonders why: "As a newbie to cycling, one of the first things I did was look up some charity ride to enter"?



I don't know if I've missed something here but this sounds laced with suspicion and cynicism. Let me explain. I'm new to the world of cycling, as is my wife. We wanted a target to train towards. If we could have an experience to remember and help a charity at the same time then everyone's a winner.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

Cambie said:


> Ok so the whole large charity rides sound like a bit of a circus that maybe are best avoided. Totally different to how I naively imagined them to be. That's a shame.



Not so much a circus but if you want to do a charity ride of choice and are happy with the amount of sponsorship needed then fill your boots and go for it. You would probably have a great time cycling with other like-minded individuals. But be aware of the terms and conditions of the ride and find out where exactly the money is going, how much to charity and how much into their own pockets.


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## Roadrider48 (12 Feb 2015)

So the choice is yours Cambie.
Sign up for a ride and agree in advance to meet the required amount either through guaranteed sponsorship or out of you own pocket if the sponsorship thing doesn't work out.
Or, do another one where there is no minimum amount required; or, organise your own.
Whatever floats your boat mate.


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## byegad (12 Feb 2015)

I forgot to say I've done Durham Big Ride a few times, held in September and cheap to enter, IIRC it was £25 in 2013. It is well organised and you get a bag of goodies thrown in. You can do the same route another day for free but I've found it good fun.


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## w00hoo_kent (12 Feb 2015)

Cambie said:


> Ok so the whole large charity rides sound like a bit of a circus that maybe are best avoided. Totally different to how I naively imagined them to be. That's a shame.


Also worth considering you may have entered a bit of a hot topic here as the Ride London ballot only came out a week or so ago and the other way in is very expensive Charity places. Coming in to cycling a couple of years ago, and being in the South East I'd naturally heard about the London Brighton, I was quite surprised to find what a terrible reputation it has amongst established riders. Basically anyone with a rusty bike in the shed gives it a go and that it's a 60 mile crawl dodging broken bikes, worn out bodies and just crowds in general. I've still not experienced it, but the horror stories seem to make it one to miss.



Cambie said:


> I don't know if I've missed something here but this sounds laced with suspicion and cynicism. Let me explain. I'm new to the world of cycling, as is my wife. We wanted a target to train towards. If we could have an experience to remember and help a charity at the same time then everyone's a winner.



There are a lot of smaller scale rides that could be worth targeting, talk to your local shop about what is coming up this year. A lot of Sportives offer multiple distances and so finding one that appeals to you and working towards achieving that could be a very good goal. I did the Ride London 86 last year and there is a focussing effect on knowing that you are doing a specific ride on a specific day. Other options include the Friday Night Rides to the Coast (FNRttC) that come up here, there will be one that goes from Hyde Park Corner to Brighton this year, the pace should be reasonable, nobody gets left behind and it ends in the right place for you. Friendlier, and pretty inexpensive.


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## BigAl68 (12 Feb 2015)

The hospital I work at is doing London to Paris in the summer to raise funds and wanted each person to raise £1,500 each. I decided not to bother as it seemed a huge amount to raise.


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## lee1980sim (12 Feb 2015)

Simple solution, or at least it's what I've always done is do a ride get people to sponsor you for doing it then give the money raised to charity you've been raising for

This year I'm doing sportive's I'll pay my fee then speak to a representative of a local charity that's means a lot to me informing them of the ride I'm doing and that I intend to raise money for them to continue with the utterly amazing work they do, I did exactly the same with a bungee jump and intend to do so when I've saved enough for a sky dive


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## Roadrider48 (12 Feb 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> Also worth considering you may have entered a bit of a hot topic here as the Ride London ballot only came out a week or so ago and the other way in is very expensive Charity places. Coming in to cycling a couple of years ago, and being in the South East I'd naturally heard about the London Brighton, I was quite surprised to find what a terrible reputation it has amongst established riders. Basically anyone with a rusty bike in the shed gives it a go and that it's a 60 mile crawl dodging broken bikes, worn out bodies and just crowds in general. I've still not experienced it, but the horror stories seem to make it one to miss.


But surely anyone and everyone who rides any bike is a good thing!
Even more so if it is for a charity ride. "Established riders" are probably the expensive carbon fibre riding middle aged tosssers who think they are professionals.


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## BigAl68 (12 Feb 2015)

I am going to Eroica this summer with a few mates and doing the 100 mile ride so we are thinking we may raise a bit of cash for one of the local kids charities as it seems it would be a good way to double up.


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## robgul (12 Feb 2015)

I have some experience here, having organised, as a volunteer, about 30 cycle fundraising events for Macmillan Cancer Support over the past 10 years ..... I think the thread is perhaps confusing what the charities call "challenge rides" and "sponsored rides"

Challenge rides are invariably the ones demanding what are perceived to be high levels of "sponsorship" - and have a high cost element ... with a confusing area of cross-over between the cost of the event and the money actually going to the charity to use. There is then the debate about sponsors paying for the rider's "holiday" The way that charities run these events is to use a commercial contractor to take care of, usually, the whole nine yards ... at a price - and as suggested some of the things included do seem to be unnecessary (post-ride celebration dinners being a prime example). The returns that the charities get from these challenge events is within a realistic target range otherwise they wouldn't do them. The profile of entrants is very often "cash-rich, time-poor" people - happily paying for someone to provide an event with very little effort required by the entrant ... and these people invariably have "connections" that contribute large sums to their fundraising efforts.

Sponsored rides, usually at a more local level (which is what we're up to) have a relatively low entry cost and encouragement to raise some money (by sponsorship or making a donation) ... but there is no "contract" with the rider for a specified amount as there is with the challenge rides. The downside of the low-ish entry cost is that people pay that, ride and make no further contribution .... there are costs to cover (in our case we have event sponsors in kind and cash - as well as sales of event jerseys with logo sponsors - that minimise our costs and increase the fundraising amounts we achieve) There is a trend towards a "pay to ride" charity event model .... rider pays a bit more for the entry for the organiser to raise a realistic amount for the effort and whatever costs are involved Some events have a dual-scale entry structure : a) pay to ride at £x or b) enter for £y and agree to raise at least £n - the jury is still out on whether that works.

The volume of events, and entrants, does imply that the charity/sponsored event organisers are doing what the market demands and is largely happy with.

Rob


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## nickyboy (12 Feb 2015)

[QUOTE 3531546, member: 45"]I recently looked at a charity ride where £750 of each person's sponsorship went to the company the charity had asked to organise the ride.

Having done one of these a few years ago I felt that a lot of this cost could have been cut, for example by not providing an expensive celebratory meal at the end of the ride.[/QUOTE]

And often the company organising the ride is seeking to make a profit for themselves.

I won't do these events because of lack of transparency. Of the money I raise and the entry fee, how much goes to the Charity, how much to the Company running it, how much to the Celebrity endorser who cycles with you? And of the money the Company gets, how does it justify this based on its outgoings. No problem giving to charity, big problem giving to a private company wanting to profit from my fundraising


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## mjr (12 Feb 2015)

robgul said:


> I think the thread is perhaps confusing what the charities call "challenge rides" and "sponsored rides"


You've no room for the old-style "fun rides" either then? :-(


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## biggs682 (12 Feb 2015)

being a tight ar@e i dont understand this either and it also stops me entering Audax events for same reason why should i pay £25 to do a 50 mile ride


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## robgul (12 Feb 2015)

mjray said:


> You've no room for the old-style "fun rides" either then? :-(



Not quite sure what you're getting at here .... ? FWIW our rides are pitched at being FUN and raising money for Macmillan ... at a reasonable and realistic cost - and a goodly amount of sponsor/donation cash rolls in too.

Rob


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## Fab Foodie (12 Feb 2015)

[QUOTE="w00hoo_kent, post: 3531761, member: Coming in to cycling a couple of years ago, and being in the South East I'd naturally heard about the London Brighton, I was quite surprised to find what a terrible reputation it has amongst established riders. Basically anyone with a rusty bike in the shed gives it a go and that it's a 60 mile crawl dodging broken bikes, worn out bodies and just crowds in general. I've still not experienced it, but the horror stories seem to make it one to miss.



.[/QUOTE]

I can't agree with your assessment of the L2B.

I've been riding it since 1984 or so, maybe 20 odd times and the real joy IS the very fact that people haul any old bike out and have a go. For many it may be the longest ride they will ever do. It's busy, slow, full if badly ridden bikes, but it's also a joyous day long celebration of cycling.

I love it.


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## robgul (12 Feb 2015)

biggs682 said:


> being a tight ar@e i dont understand this either and it also stops me entering Audax events for same reason why should i pay £25 to do a 50 mile ride



You're (presumably as you are here!!) a keen cyclist .... and capable of creating your own rides ....... the market seems to be infrequent riders paying for someone to organise a day out on a bike for them, doing something different (compare the entry cost with a day at a theme park?) .... or the regular sportive type rider who again is happy to pay for the organisation planing routes, putting up signage etc 

Rob


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## Roadrider48 (12 Feb 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> [QUOTE="w00hoo_kent, post: 3531761, member: Coming in to cycling a couple of years ago, and being in the South East I'd naturally heard about the London Brighton, I was quite surprised to find what a terrible reputation it has amongst established riders. Basically anyone with a rusty bike in the shed gives it a go and that it's a 60 mile crawl dodging broken bikes, worn out bodies and just crowds in general. I've still not experienced it, but the horror stories seem to make it one to miss.
> 
> 
> 
> .



I can't agree with your assessment of the L2B.

I've been riding it since 1984 or so, maybe 20 odd times and the real joy IS the very fact that people haul any old bike out and have a go. For many it may be the longest ride they will ever do. It's busy, slow, full if badly ridden bikes, but it's also a joyous day long celebration of cycling.

I love it.[/QUOTE]
LIKE!!
Amen to that....


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## Roadrider48 (12 Feb 2015)

robgul said:


> You're (presumably as you are here!!) a keen cyclist .... and capable of creating your own rides ....... the market seems to be infrequent riders paying for someone to organise a day out on a bike for them, doing something different (compare the entry cost with a day at a theme park?) .... or the regular sportive type rider who again is happy to pay for the organisation planing routes, putting up signage etc
> 
> Rob


How is a charity bike ride comparable to a day out at Thorpe park?
Why can't EVERY aspect of a charity ride be organised in the true spirit of charity.
I.E....People giving their free time to organise, other people donating food at what not. To me that's charity, and the said charity/charities get all the proceeds.
Instead of putting people under pressure to raise a minimum of £500 or whatever. Then giving all different slices of it to profiteering peanuts.
These things are not charity! They are just a money making scam and the charity gets whatever is left over.


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## Tim Hall (12 Feb 2015)

Cambie said:


> Ok so the whole large charity rides sound like a bit of a circus that maybe are best avoided. Totally different to how I naively imagined them to be. That's a shame.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I've missed something here but this sounds laced with suspicion and cynicism. Let me explain. I'm new to the world of cycling, as is my wife. We wanted a target to train towards. If we could have an experience to remember and help a charity at the same time then everyone's a winner.


Sorry, that did sound a bit negative. Putting it a bit more clearly (I hope), I had trouble understanding why the first thing you did was to look at charity rides. And you've explained it quite well in your subsequent post, quoted above. Have fun, however you do it.


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## jefmcg (12 Feb 2015)

biggs682 said:


> being a tight ar@e i dont understand this either and it also stops me entering Audax events for same reason why should i pay £25 to do a 50 mile ride


Sorry, this doesn't seem to be audax. They are usually between £5 and £10. I've lashed out £30 for one in may, but thats 600km with home cooked food all the way around and somewhere to sleep.


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## biggs682 (12 Feb 2015)

jefmcg said:


> Sorry, this doesn't seem to be audax. They are usually between £5 and £10. I've lashed out £30 for one in may, but thats 600km with home cooked food all the way around and somewhere to sleep.




*Event Details*

Event Location – AJ Cycles, Bury Close, Higham Ferrers, NN10 8HQ

Routes – 25, 40 & 80 Miles (GPS device links available)

Parking – Free Parking within Bury close Ind estate

Registration – Opens 7.30am, Free tea & coffee available

Ride Start Time – 8.30-9am, 80 mile route followed by 40 & 25 mile

Feed Stations – 80 miles = 2 stations, 40 & 25 mile = 1 station, with drinks, gels, fruit & cake

Event Pricing – 80 mile = £25, 40 & 25 mile = £20


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## jefmcg (12 Feb 2015)

biggs682 said:


> Event Location – AJ Cycles, Bury Close, Higham Ferrers, NN10 8HQ


That's a sportive not an audax.

For £30 in an audax you get 


> This is an ideal first 600, with all controls located in village halls. Home cooking at all controls, plus beds and blankets at overnight controls. All this is included in the price.


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## Tin Pot (12 Feb 2015)

My own experience raising money for charity through a bike ride was pretty disheartening, I started out feeling like I was helping needy children and ended feeling like a freeloader with a bill for my monthly salary that I couldn't afford to pay.

That was fifteen years ago, and with many friends who've worked in the charity industry I understand the need for it, but I can't say I like it. And every person phoning me to sign up a direct debit so they can "get their cut" makes me sick.

I would suggest entering a wiggle sportive event yourself, something £30-£60, and raising money for charity anyway. That way there is no pressure, no target , just charity.

Or, if you're feeling flush, make one big donation yourself to cover a charity entry entirely(!)

Good luck, and good luck with raising funds! Once you've made your decision you can forget all the negativity!


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

Profit, Blimey that word upsets many on here. Does anyone know how much profit an organiser makes. If it is good why do some of you not do it as a business.


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## Tin Pot (12 Feb 2015)

screenman said:


> Profit, Blimey that word upsets many on here. Does anyone know how much profit an organiser makes. If it is good why do some of you not do it as a business.



Profit is not a problem, profiting from charity is.

The finger is not pointed at the event organiser, it is the charity's decision to pay for places at an event.


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> Profit is not a problem, profiting from charity is.
> 
> The finger is not pointed at the event organiser, it is the charity's decision to pay for places at an event.



Speculate to accumulate.


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## the_mikey (12 Feb 2015)

Charity fundraising is an industrialised process, it does what it does to maximise it's returns, the economics of the charity ride makes sense to the fund raising organisation, it won't make sense to a club rider or Audax rider, it might appeal to people who have never considered a long ride before, people who are perhaps outside of the cultural norms of club /road/audax/sportive riding.


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## w00hoo_kent (12 Feb 2015)

Fab Foodie said:


> I can't agree with your assessment of the L2B.
> ...
> I love it.


To be fair, I was pretty specific about it being what I've heard about L2B rather than experienced. You'll probably get similar comments when it comes closer this year, along with people working out how to cheat the system and ride it for free.

Still, nice to hear positive stories about it.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

biggs682 said:


> *Event Details*
> 
> Event Location – AJ Cycles, Bury Close, Higham Ferrers, NN10 8HQ
> 
> ...




That's a Sportive not an Audax.

Edit: A TMN to @jefmcg


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

w00hoo_kent said:


> To be fair, I was pretty specific about it being what I've heard about L2B rather than experienced. You'll probably get similar comments when it comes closer this year, along with people working out how to cheat the system and ride it for free.
> 
> Still, nice to hear positive stories about it.




Cheat the system?
Riding on open roads of which the L2B is sharing


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

ianrauk said:


> Cheat the system?
> Riding on open roads of which the L2B is sharing



For me that would feel wrong, which is why I would not do it.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

screenman said:


> For me that would feel wrong, which is why I would not do it.



No I expect you wouldn't.


Friend of mine who did the ride was nervous about doing it as she was new to cycling so she asked her husband to accompany her. She signed up, he didn't. Is that wrong?


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## DCLane (12 Feb 2015)

Charity events do seem to be going up in price.

Some commercial ones, like the now-defunct Etape Pennines with a £63 entry fee, were nominally 'charity' but run by major for-profit organisations.

I did the GHS Memorial Ride (100/50 miles total, stop at Pocklington) last year - the fee? A massive £3.

Having done the BHF Night Ride and some others, along with the biggest sportives, I'm finding the audax scene better.


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## biggs682 (12 Feb 2015)

jefmcg said:


> That's a sportive not an audax.
> 
> For £30 in an audax you get



same thing in my mind



ianrauk said:


> That's a Sportive not an Audax.
> 
> Edit: A TMN to @jefmcg



as above


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

ianrauk said:


> No I expect you wouldn't.
> 
> 
> Friend of mine who did the ride was nervous about doing it as she was new to cycling so she asked her husband to accompany her. She signed up, he didn't. Is that wrong?



In my opinion yes.


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## jefmcg (12 Feb 2015)

Variation on theme. I attempted to do London-Edinburgh-London in 2013 (as I have mentioned in CC a *lot!*). I knew that it was at the edge of what I could do, but despite dropping out 300km from the end, only just. 

I had considered asking for charity sponsorship, with all money going to a good cause. Then saying that if I failed to finish, I would match (or perhaps double) the donations that were pledged. IE my friends paid no matter what, but I was vastly penalised for not finishing. 

I suspect I gave all I could, and even if I had done this, I wouldn't have finished. And without it, I felt the eyes of my friends upon me.

But I do wonder what difference it might have made, and what good all that pain might have done a charity.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

screenman said:


> In my opinion yes.




Not surprising.


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

ianrauk said:


> Not surprising.



We can all have our own opinions. I was bought up with the rules that you never rode the circuit when an event was on, be it TT or a road race.

If the law says OK you can run that event but with say only 25,000 riders and 5,000 extra are on the road it can jeopardise the future of the event.


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## jefmcg (12 Feb 2015)

User said:


> When I described it as a point of honour to ride L2B without paying BHF a penny, I meant it. The ride was a critical mass event which they stole for their commercial aims. I consider it to be a moral duty to steal a bit back.


This is new to me. I'd appreciate the story or link to the story (it must be out there). 

Thanks

(I don't like mass rides. I won't be joining even if I find it is politically correct to do so  )


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

screenman said:


> We can all have our own opinions. I was bought up with the rules that you never rode the circuit when an event was on, be it TT or a road race.
> 
> If the law says OK you can run that event but with say only 25,000 riders and 5,000 extra are on the road it can jeopardise the future of the event.



It's not a circuit, a TT or a Road Race, it's the public highway..
And if BHF or the Police felt that the extra cyclists posed a jeopardy then they would close the roads. But they don't.


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

User said:


> When I described it as a point of honour to ride L2B without paying BHF a penny, I meant it. The ride was a critical mass event which they stole for their commercial aims. I consider it to be a moral duty to steal a bit back.



Morals and stealing, that is an odd pairing. I would just ride the course on a day that the event was not on. I do not feel it fair to those who paid.


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## jefmcg (12 Feb 2015)

biggs682 said:


> same thing in my mind


Yeah, but it's not the same thing. A 50miles sportive costs £25, which you rightly feel to be extortionate. A 100km audax costs £6 - which I think most people would agree is fine.


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

ianrauk said:


> It's not a circuit, a TT or a Road Race, it's the public highway..
> And if BHF or the Police felt that the extra cyclists posed a jeopardy then they would close the roads. But they don't.



They would ban the event before they shut the roads as it is cheaper. Sorry but it was instilled in me as cycling manners by the elders of the club's I belonged too. Without that history it may be hard to agree, it bothers me not one bit what you do. It bothers me a lot what I do though.


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## ianrauk (12 Feb 2015)

screenman said:


> They would ban the event before they shut the roads as it is cheaper. Sorry but it was instilled in me as cycling manners by the elders of the club's I belonged too. Without that history it may be hard to agree, it bothers me not one bit what you do. It bothers me a lot what I do though.




I don't do it. You are making assumptions.


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

ianrauk said:


> I don't do it. You are making assumptions.



Apologies, I thought you were disagreeing with my views. So you are correct.


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## screenman (12 Feb 2015)

Forgot to say, some charity rides are too expensive for my tastes, but each to their own.


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## snorri (12 Feb 2015)

Roadrider48 said:


> Then giving all different slices of it to profiteering peanuts.
> These things are not charity! They are just a money making scam and the charity gets whatever is left over.


I don't think that is quite right, the charity would not employ an organisation to run an event unless the charity was to be assured of a certain return from that event.
I would imagine the organising body would be under contract to pay the charity an agreed amount by a fixed date following the event. It would be the organising body that would be left with "whatever is left over", and not the charity.


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## Fab Foodie (12 Feb 2015)

User said:


> Cheat the system? I consider it a point of honour to ride the L2B for free.


Me too .... but put some money into the BHF coffers rather than the event organisers ...


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## Bollo (13 Feb 2015)

This reminded me of a Sheldon Brown Op Ed piece...

http://sheldonbrown.com/thons.html

I'm not sure I'd go as far as him, but personally I don't ask people for money to ride my bike, because it's something I do anyway.


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## Cambie (13 Feb 2015)

As I'm new to cycling and looking to have a few events to train towards, can someone explain the difference between a Sportive and Audax please?

I've entered an Evans ride this weekend which I believe is a Sportive. Am I correct?


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## w00hoo_kent (13 Feb 2015)

If you don't know which you're riding, it's a sportive. :-)

Someone who really knows will be along in a bit, but I believe the difference is that a Sportive is over a set route with some level of support (normally a food/water point) during the journey while an Audax is a point to point ride where you choose your own route and do all your own support work. From what I've seen Sportives are a one day affair while Audaxes have a tendency to run longer so you end up having to sort out overnight options (like riding through it to catch up time). A Sportive is a not race while an Audax is a not marathon.


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## totallyfixed (13 Feb 2015)

Cambie said:


> As I'm new to cycling and looking to have a few events to train towards, can someone explain the difference between a Sportive and Audax please?
> 
> I've entered an Evans ride this weekend which I believe is a Sportive. Am I correct?


I can take you out on traffic free roads, no potholes, lovely countryside, any distance you want and tea and cakes at the finish. £25, how does that sound?


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## w00hoo_kent (13 Feb 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> I can take you out on traffic free roads, no potholes, lovely countryside, any distance you want and tea and cakes at the finish. £25, how does that sound?


A bit mean?

You should enjoy the Sportive, it's a different atmosphere to just going for a ride. The organisation side makes it all feel a bit more official (like doing a race without doing a race or being a racer) and riding with a lot of other bikes doing the same route is a very different experience. Have fun with it.

There are some miserly grouches here (I have to admit I'm one to some degree) who baulk at the idea of paying a chunk of money to ride a public road, in my case probably not helped by doing a prep ride and finding out the route I'd planned on MapMyRide mirrored a lot of a still signposted Sportive from some weeks earlier. But my wife still fancies doing one of the local ones, mainly as a target to be ready to do that thing by this moment in time, and we'll probably end up doing it together. So not paying out the money is hardly one of my core pillars of belief :-)


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## mjr (13 Feb 2015)

Cambie said:


> As I'm new to cycling and looking to have a few events to train towards, can someone explain the difference between a Sportive and Audax please?
> 
> I've entered an Evans ride this weekend which I believe is a Sportive. Am I correct?


Yes, because I think Evans only does Sportives.

British Cycling's handbook says "Sportives are non-competitive, mass participation challenge events, typically timed on a publicised, signposted route, varying in distance of approximately 40-100 miles. The events are designed to be a physical, personal challenge using a combination of distance and severity of the course to test the typical 200 - to 5000 participants. Generally there may be a choice of two or three routes providing opportunities for varying levels of ability. It is expected that there will be regular feed stations and/or check points positioned appropriate to the course, conditions and topography. Timing points and marshals will be appointed as defined by the Risk Assessment."

It also defines audax and leisure rides but I think their definitions are wrong. Let's look somewhere better...

www.aukweb.net says Audax "are NOT races. People ride them more in the spirit of an event like the London Marathon, everyone riding to their own limitations with the primary objective to just 'get round'. These events suit everyone, clubmen, time-trialists, recreational riders, cycletourists, 'born again' cyclists, young and old, male and female. And you'll see all sorts of machines - bikes, tandems, trikes, recumbents, and occasionally even stranger things ... Size of entry varies greatly but is typically around 100 starters. Small local events may have just a handful of riders while a few popular events attract 200 starters or more. The routes typically feature a few fast main roads and a lot of quiet, scenic lanes. Many events are quite hilly, some are extremely hilly, and even the flatter ones usually have one or two challenging climbs. Some events are noted for the quality of home-cooked food and tender loving care supplied along the way. But most are not - self-sufficiency is a highly-regarded quality" "On the same theme, 'support' - for example a following car - is very much frowned upon. There are maximum and minimum time limits, which are designed to suit everyone from the fittest of recreational riders, to more occasional riders who have plenty of determination. Each rider carries a 'brevet card' which is stamped at intermediate checkpoints and at the finish, and which is later returned to the rider as a certificate of their achievement. The success rate on these events is very high - probably only about 10% fail to finish."

So there's quite a bit of overlap. In my experience (I've seen both but only done a few sportives before returning to easy-riding because I felt their rules and the fake-racing ethos weren't fun), Sportives look a lot more like races and have a lot more rules and enforcers, whereas Audax looks more like a point-to-point on bikes (thanks @w00hoo_kent). I think both have varying lengths from short events to multi-day.


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## totallyfixed (13 Feb 2015)

To be serious for a moment, Audax rides are to be commended, however where they are let down a little for me are when they choose main roads over country lanes. I think the reason for this is historical, many of the routes have been run for donkeys years and do not take into account the changing levels of traffic on what may have been a quiet road in bygone years. I don't know the personalities who run Audax but I wouldn't bet against them being active cyclists who have been riding 60 years or more. I have some friends who are "senior citizens" who still time trial and ride Audaxes and they think nothing of riding on the A14, their attitude being that they have always done so and why should they stop now. An Audax was run last weekend out of Leicester, 100km, but without much trouble a quieter, safer route could easily have been devised.


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## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> To be serious for a moment, Audax rides are to be commended, however where they are let down a little for me are when they choose main roads over country lanes. I think the reason for this is historical, many of the routes have been run for donkeys years and do not take into account the changing levels of traffic on what may have been a quiet road in bygone years. I don't know the personalities who run Audax but I wouldn't bet against them being active cyclists who have been riding 60 years or more. I have some friends who are "senior citizens" who still time trial and ride Audaxes and they think nothing of riding on the A14, their attitude being that they have always done so and why should they stop now. An Audax was run last weekend out of Leicester, 100km, but without much trouble a quieter, safer route could easily have been devised.



My understanding of audax is you cycle from point A to point B, to C etc.

It is entirely up to you which route you take.

That's part of the self-reliance ethos.

You have to hit each control, which will limit your options a little, but the recommended route - if there is one - is no more than a suggestion.

@jefmcg is an experienced audaxer so could confirm if the above is on the right lines.


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## mcshroom (13 Feb 2015)

There will be a recommended route on any audax, often a gpx file too. However they are not compulsory other than the controls. I've very rarely been routed down main roads, but at this time of year the rides are more likely to use them instead of country lanes because they are less likely to be icy. There are a few main road bashes around still (like the North West Passage next weekend). but in general a lot of thought appears to have been put into avoiding them on the rides I have ridden.

Most audax organisers are audaxers themselves, and as far as I am aware, all are volunteers.


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## Pale Rider (13 Feb 2015)

mcshroom said:


> There will be a recommended route on any audax, often a gpx file too. However they are not compulsory other than the controls. I've very rarely been routed down main roads, but at this time of year the rides are more likely to use them instead of country lanes because they are less likely to be icy. There are a few main road bashes around still (like the North West Passage next weekend). but in general a lot of thought appears to have been put into avoiding them on the rides I have ridden.
> 
> Most audax organisers are audaxers themselves, and as far as I am aware, all are volunteers.



I recall at the Barnard Castle control of London Edinburgh London a few of the riders talking about risking a stretch of the A19 in the early hours because it was shorter than the gpx route, which avoided the A19.


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## mcshroom (13 Feb 2015)

I did from Easingwold on the way up to Thirsk (just before I packed) as I was just about spent and couldn't face the Howardian Hills on the suggested route.


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## totallyfixed (14 Feb 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> My understanding of audax is you cycle from point A to point B, to C etc.
> 
> It is entirely up to you which route you take.
> 
> ...


I have done plenty of audaxes, you follow a route sheet, when I did the 400km routes I didn't have a map and gps wasn't around then. It is difficult to follow your own route if you don't know the area anyway, on top of that there were questions you had to answer like the name of a pub in a certain place etc which ensured you did the route as per the directions. Maybe it has all changed? Been a while since I did one but will try and fit one in soon.


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## Pale Rider (14 Feb 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> Maybe it has all changed?



Doubt it.

I suppose LEL is not a typical audax in that there are only a handful of controls which, of necessity, are a long way apart.

So in that respect I didn't pick a representative example.

Fascinating experience for me as a volunteer, which is as close to the event as I will ever get.


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## vernon (14 Feb 2015)

totallyfixed said:


> I have done plenty of audaxes, you follow a route sheet, when I did the 400km routes I didn't have a map and gps wasn't around then. It is difficult to follow your own route if you don't know the area anyway, on top of that there were questions you had to answer like the name of a pub in a certain place etc which ensured you did the route as per the directions. Maybe it has all changed? Been a while since I did one but will try and fit one in soon.



The organised events issue suggested routes with manned controls where you must get the Brevet card stamped to confirm that you have done the ride. Sometimes to make sure that the Audax event is of the specified length, e.g. 50km, 100km, 150km 200km, etc, it mighy be necessary to add a 'kink' to the most direct line route between two controls. Evidence that the kink had been ridden is provided by the riders being asked to record information about a specified feature on the kink e.g. the distace to a village copies from a mile post, the name of the church in a village, the time of evensong, the colour of a clock face on a church tower etc.

Most of the route sheets are easy to follow. One or two events have awful route sheets and supplementary mapping is necessary. The shorter events are as cheap as chips to enter. North Yorks DA of the CTC charge £2 for entries for Audax UK members.


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## mcshroom (14 Feb 2015)

Sometimes the suggested route is nothing like the shortest. I'll be riding the Ripon Canter next month (you riding again this year @vernon ?) which only has two controls, the start and a cafe in Ripon. The recommended return route is quite a bit longer (and hillier) than just going back the way you came, though it is also far more scenic


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## e-rider (14 Feb 2015)

Cambie said:


> Hi all,
> 
> As a newbie to cycling, one of the first things I did was look up some charity ride to enter. The London to Brighton ones and the Pru Ride London-Surrey.
> 
> ...


I think that these charities are trying to avoid people using the cycle events as 'cheap' sportives, which is exactly why charity bike rides became popular in the first place. the way it's going, charity events will soon lose popularity as they will be too expensive and the charity will lose out. The sportive market is also heading for a fall over the next 5 years with only the best events surviving, becasue 1. they are becoming far too expensive, and 2. a lot of the new sportive gang are the type of people that quickly move on to the next thing anyway.


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## vernon (14 Feb 2015)

mcshroom said:


> Sometimes the suggested route is nothing like the shortest. I'll be riding the Ripon Canter next month (you riding again this year @vernon ?) which only has two controls, the start and a cafe in Ripon. The recommended return route is quite a bit longer (and hillier) than just going back the way you came, though it is also far more scenic



Yes. I'll be there. I suffered on the return leg a couple of years ago. Last year's return leg was slightly different and less lumpy.


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