# Max heart rate Increase



## rog4747 (10 Dec 2020)

Hi all,

I am 59 years old and have a max heart around 190...I know this because I always wear a heart rate monitor and track my heart rate consistently via strava etc. My concern is that my heart rate used to be around 180 to 182 max until last year when I noticed it increased to around 188. This was measured during a very intense 10 minute climb most of which was out of the saddle. It topped out at 188 during the top of the climb. 

I would say at the time my fitness level (Jan/Feb 2020) was very high having been training (pre-covid) 4/5 times per week for 20 weeks using road sessions/turbo and trainer road to prepare for a couple of weeks in Majorca. As we all know, travel was effectively banned and out the window went all my cycling arrangements. Since then I totally stopped training and have been cycling just a couple times a week to keep some level of fitness up. From August 2020 I had 3 complete months off the bike and only started riding again in mid October. Since then I have been riding socially around 100 per week but gradually taking on more intense climb and rides.

I went on a social ride last week with a couple of friends and on one particular climb we all went for it when I recorded for the first time a heart rate of 190. At nearly 60 years old this seems quite high to me having read in theory it should be approximately 220 minus your age, which puts me a long way from the norm. 

I was just wondering from all you what your thoughts were and whether you have experienced something similar - or perhaps I should seek some professional advice?

Cheers all


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## Joffey (10 Dec 2020)

See a doctor if you are worried about your heart


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Dec 2020)

Max HR is genetically determined and varies quite a lot in the population. Don’t worry if yours isn’t equal to 220 minus age. That only works reasonably well at a population level but not an individual level. It’s just a statistical average, not an absolute.


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## cougie uk (10 Dec 2020)

220 - age is bobbins. 

Sounds to me that you're not as fit as you used to be hence why the HR is higher. 

A MHR test would probably be higher still - if you do it properly. A ten minute climb probably wouldn't do it justice. Either a ramp test or a race would.


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## si_c (10 Dec 2020)

Ignore the 220 - age thing, it's a a rough guide to average max HR for a large population not an individual estimate.


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## ColinJ (10 Dec 2020)

cougie uk said:


> A MHR test would probably be higher still - if you do it properly. A ten minute climb probably wouldn't do it justice. Either a ramp test or a race would.


I think that you can hit your MHR in a lot less than 10minutes!

My highest measured HR (198 bpm) was riding up this climb into a headwind...







I reckon that I hit it in less than 1 minute! I was close to falling off my bike from the exertion so I would be very surprised if I could have gone harder than that. If I _could _then it would have been a couple of bpm only and I really would _NOT _liked to have done it...


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## Ajax Bay (10 Dec 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Sounds to me that you're not as fit as you used to be hence why the HR is higher.


It doesn't work like that. Quite likely the fitter a rider is the harder they will be able to push themselves. The less fit rider will just not manage it. From the OP it sounds a reasonable check of current HRmax, and for a young chap (assumed 'rog') in their 50s, 190bpm is well within the + and - SD (range) with a mean of (208 - 0.7*age).
@rog4747 Don't worry about it. What's the OP's resting HR, I wonder?


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## matticus (10 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> I think that you can hit your MHR in a lot less than 10minutes!
> 
> My highest measured HR (198 bpm) was riding up this climb into a headwind...
> 
> ...


I htink that just shows you need to be well warmed-up before the _Big Effort_. I doubt you started your ride at that photo-stop, and I doubt that it's at sea-level.

Nice pic though! Where is it? (there are many parts of Yorks/Lancs I have not yet ridden ... )


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## rog4747 (10 Dec 2020)

Thanks for your replay guys, much appreciated. My area for riding is in Hampshire no big climbs around me, just short and some sharp accents. Resting HR is around 50 - I've been riding for around 15 years and never got close to a 190 Max HR until recently hence my post. The biggest change to my riding has been in the last 3 years since I started to use a smart trainer and in particular trainer road. Prior to this any training was less structured and informal. I'm wondering whether adopting more structured approach may have increased my max HR. Is this possible? Can your HR increase by better training...or is Max HR is what it is..


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## PaulSB (10 Dec 2020)

If you're worried see a doctor don't ask random people on the internet.

For what it's worth my resting HR is 48 and my max 176. I hit this max cresting Fleetmoss which is a Cat 3 climb. I'm 66.

I rarely get close to this under normal conditions.

Hard to see how you'd hit 190 on short sharp climbs?


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## rog4747 (10 Dec 2020)

PaulSB said:


> If you're worried see a doctor don't ask random people on the internet.
> 
> For what it's worth my resting HR is 48 and my max 176. I hit this max cresting Fleetmoss which is a Cat 3 climb. I'm 66.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but im not that worried, I actually feel great. Just thought it was a good topic of conversation, that's what forums are for, just interested it what others have to say.


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## cougie uk (10 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> I think that you can hit your MHR in a lot less than 10minutes!
> 
> My highest measured HR (198 bpm) was riding up this climb into a headwind...
> 
> ...


Yes but you couldn't get on a bike and hit your max in one minute could you ? You need a decent warm up first.


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## ColinJ (10 Dec 2020)

matticus said:


> I htink that just shows you need to be well warmed-up before the _Big Effort_. I doubt you started your ride at that photo-stop, and I doubt that it's at sea-level.





cougie uk said:


> Yes but you couldn't get on a bike and hit your max in one minute could you ? You need a decent warm up first.


Warmed up first, yes. I would prefer 30 minutes or so but I think I could warm up in the first 9 minutes of a 10 minute climb and then do the final minute really hard.



matticus said:


> Nice pic though! Where is it? (there are many parts of Yorks/Lancs I have not yet ridden ... )


It is on *this scenic road* between Nelson and Hebden Bridge. Nelson, Colne and Burnley are off to the right. After the crest in the distance to the left, the road descends past Widdop reservoir and continues to Slack, Heptonstall and Hebden Bridge.


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## Ajax Bay (10 Dec 2020)

A rider will be unable to achieve their max HR at the crux of a long climb (eg Fleet Moss) as they'll be significantly fatigued. A 'short sharp (?Hampshire) climb' is a much 'better' option. Take the day before off (cycling/physical exercise). Warm up properly aiming to be at 3/4 HRmax (estimated) when you get to the bottom of a 5 minute climb, ideally one which steepens as you get towards the top. Steadily and consciously accelerate as you climb and finish off with a 20 second all out sprint. Take care to keep a morsel of energy to unclip at the top, and stay astride the bike till your head's cleared. Clear up any mess. Recover safely at the top. Warm down. Examine data when sensible.
The protocol I've described seems quite close to the OP's a social ride (warmed up) and bonus peer pressure "on one particular climb we all went for it".
If you think it might be worth worrying about, ask random people on the internet (which is exactly what the OP has done). If they're worried, see a doctor.
"Doctor, I beasted myself up a climb last weekend and my HR went higher than it's been before - 190 and I'm nearly 60. Should I be concerned?"
"Next"


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2020)

Ajax Bay said:


> *A rider will be unable to achieve their max HR at the crux of a long climb (eg Fleet Moss) as they'll be significantly fatigued*. A 'short sharp (?Hampshire) climb' is a much 'better' option. Take the day before off (cycling/physical exercise). Warm up properly aiming to be at 3/4 HRmax (estimated) when you get to the bottom of a 5 minute climb, ideally one which steepens as you get towards the top. Steadily and consciously accelerate as you climb and finish off with a 20 second all out sprint. Take care to keep a morsel of energy to unclip at the top, and stay astride the bike till your head's cleared. Clear up any mess. Recover safely at the top. Warm down. Examine data when sensible.
> The protocol I've described seems quite close to the OP's a social ride (warmed up) and bonus peer pressure "on one particular climb we all went for it".
> If you think it might be worth worrying about, ask random people on the internet (which is exactly what the OP has done). If they're worried, see a doctor.
> "Doctor, I beasted myself up a climb last weekend and my HR went higher than it's been before - 190 and I'm nearly 60. Should I be concerned?"
> "Next"



Could I ask you to expand on this because after checking the ride on which I hit my maximum of 177 I would disagree. I'll give you the scenario in case it helps. We started to climb Fleet Moss at approximately 32 miles in to a 90 mile ride, 8500 feet of climbing, 14.3avg. We had earlier ridden Lamps Moss and Buttertubs. All three climbs are Cat 3. The lower half of Fleet Moss I rode at 140-150bpm and the upper half 150-160 hitting 165 for a short spell and a max of 176 around 100-200 yards from the summit. I was not tired at this point. I did become fatigued at 71 miles when a little 4% incline hit me hard and it took me 2-3 miles to get back up to steam.

A "short sharp climb" is very difficult to define. Thinking about our local roads one I consider short and sharp is about 2-300 yards, kicks in from flat to immediately 5% and tops out at 10%. I usually arrive at this 5 miles in to a ride and would expect my HR to be around 135/140 on this section. I'm not sure it qualifies as a climb, we all think differently about these things.

This post makes me sound obsessed with HR, I'm not. I watch the numbers during a ride because I know what to expect under most circumstances. If I was getting an unexplained increased HR I would want to know. I've had both a heart attack and brain haemorrhage in recent years - it helps to keep an eye on these things!!


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## screenman (11 Dec 2020)

Were you sick after hitting your max, from experience of a few controlled tests when being coached if you were not then you did not hit your real max. I have failed far more max tests than I have completed.


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> Were you sick after hitting your max, from experience of a few controlled tests when being coached if you were not then you did not hit your real max. I have failed far more max tests than I have completed.


No I wasn't sick - just breathing hard for 30 seconds or so at the top. I'm no expert on these things and as in my previous post my main interest is knowing what I'm doing at any given point. With my recent medical history if I was experiencing significant variations over several rides I'd be concerned enough to speak to my GP. This hasn't happened to date. My other interest is to try and use my HR to keep my riding at a steady pace.

I have two friends who are heavily in to their numbers, one frankly is absolutely obsessed - it's a running joke amongst the OAPs. There is no doubt I hit 176 on Fleet Moss and I wasn't tired. Both my buddies say I should use this as my max. Generally the highest I hit is 162/165 and I would be absolutely smashing it chasing a PB on a major climb, a proper hill!!  Most rides 140 would be a max and I come home with an average around 110.

At the end of it all I'm just a decent club rider who happens to be good on hills. Nothing more scientific than that, though I have learned to pace the hills better than I used to.


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## screenman (11 Dec 2020)

Sorry Paul, that was aimed at the OP, I also use a HRM to keep my rides steady and I find it very useful for just that, back in my racing days it was certainly about the numbers.


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> I think that you can hit your MHR in a lot less than 10minutes!
> 
> My highest measured HR (198 bpm) was riding up this climb into a headwind...
> 
> ...


Where is this Colin? Looks like somewhere I should be heading to.


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## screenman (11 Dec 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Where is this Colin? Looks like somewhere I should be heading to.



You and me both, next year is going to be a lot more miles for me than this year was.


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2020)

screenman said:


> Sorry Paul, that was aimed at the OP, I also use a HRM to keep my rides steady and I find it very useful for just that, back in my racing days it was certainly about the numbers.


No problem. I'm interested to hear from another person, my pals often say it, that HR is a good way to keep the ride steady. The problem we have is when we all ride together my HR is 20-30bpm lower than theirs. If I back off to let them ride at their desired HR I'm down in Zone 1 for mile after mile! Not that I care much, just thinking about the waist line.


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## matticus (11 Dec 2020)

Unless I'm missing some facts, it sounds like you're just faster than your pals (or they want to ride at a much easier "steady" than you do). This is hardly unusual, some people are slower than others!


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## Ajax Bay (11 Dec 2020)

"A rider will be unable to achieve their max HR at the crux of a long climb . . . as they'll be significantly fatigued."


PaulSB said:


> Could I ask you to expand on this because after checking the ride on which I hit my maximum of 177 I would disagree.
> 
> A "short sharp climb" is very difficult to define.


Not sure I can be more explicit. If the aim is to explore/record HRmax then the effort will be most effective if the rider (or runner) is fresh (not fatigued at all) because they'll be able to dig out that extra effort and therefore bpm. Your HRmax is higher than 177 but I know that with the medical history you describe you will be circumspect about any extreme effort. Make no bones about it: finding one's HRmax is a 'eyeballs out' effort: everyone's different, physically and in motivation.
I'm not recommending a 'short, sharp climb' - the OP says that that's all the roads in their Hampshire area offer. My recipe is:
"a 5 minute climb, ideally one which steepens as you get towards the top". This is not 'short' in my book and ideally the only sharp bit is needed near the top. There are loads of such road climbs in Hampshire - you don't need a chevron at the top.


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2020)

@Ajax Bay - thanks, that's good. I'm with you now, yes eyeballs out I could ride harder but I'm not sure I want to or could maintain it for long!

Cheers.


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2020)

matticus said:


> Unless I'm missing some facts, it sounds like you're just faster than your pals (or they want to ride at a much easier "steady" than you do). This is hardly unusual, some people are slower than others!


Yes, I am a little faster but they can keep up quite easily - if that makes sense. The guy with the obsession is forever trying out a new theory. 

It's definitely not a case of wanting to ride easier as we all amble along quite happily averaging 16-17. My HR is always 20-30bpm lower whatever we are doing! It's only a "problem" (it isn't really a problem) when they want to ride on what for them is a low HR. If they go to 120/125 I'm on 100/105!!


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## Ajax Bay (11 Dec 2020)

HRmax is just a figure and one can't 'maintain it' for any time at all: it's a peak immediately before 'failure' (aka can't sprint uphill any further). People can 'flaunt' their HRmax - you aren't btw - and it's interesting for some. Its practical use for an individual is to determine HR range (HRrest to HRmax) and then percentage HRrange can be used (by coach or self-coaching) to specify level of effort for a tempo ride or the effort part of intervals. It could be that your quoted 48 as HRrest is rather lower than your riding friends and they are working at the same percentage of their individual range as you.
Riding in a group with others and agreeing to ride at the same specific HR, roughly, is unlikely to end well. People are different.
Get the obsessive to try to find their HRrest and flaunt that between you, Indurain style.
eg: warm up, 3 x one min efforts, one minute pause, 10 x 3 mins @ 80%, 10 mins steady, 10 x 3 mins @ 85%, warm down. That session can be communicated as that and each individual can simply work out what the 80% is for them: ie the HR they need to hit.


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## ColinJ (11 Dec 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Where is this Colin? Looks like somewhere I should be heading to.


See post #13!

You could get a very nice hilly loop in from Chorley. I have done the same kind of thing in reverse so I'll see if I kept the GPX files somewhere.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Dec 2020)

PaulSB said:


> Yes, I am a little faster but they can keep up quite easily - if that makes sense. The guy with the obsession is forever trying out a new theory.
> 
> It's definitely not a case of wanting to ride easier as we all amble along quite happily averaging 16-17. My HR is always 20-30bpm lower whatever we are doing! It's only a "problem" (it isn't really a problem) when they want to ride on what for them is a low HR. If they go to 120/125 I'm on 100/105!!



This is the problem with trying to do training with others. It generally doesn’t work that well unless it’s race or group riding skills. Train alone and then have fun when riding as a group.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Dec 2020)

As to whether it’s true max HR or a few bpm short? Who cares, it’ll be close enough to set your training zones. Fitness improvements won’t disappear if you are a couple of % short of the intended intensity during your training sessions.


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## ColinJ (12 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> See post #13!
> 
> You could get a very nice hilly loop in from Chorley. I have done the same kind of thing in reverse so I'll see if I kept the GPX files somewhere.


@PaulSB - I will be playing with my maps tonight. If you work out your own route to and from Whalley, I'll work out this end for you. Would you like me to include or avoid steep stuff where there is a choice?


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2020)

ColinJ said:


> @PaulSB - I will be playing with my maps tonight. If you work out your own route to and from Whalley, I'll work out this end for you. Would you like me to include or avoid steep stuff where there is a choice?


That's kind Colin. Thank you. I can get to Whalley with my eyes shut - it's a regular jumping off point to the Ribble Valley for us.

My criteria is always quality of the ride and scenery. If that means lots of climbing so be it. I am a bit of a hill hunter but it's not a priority, it's the ride which counts.


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## ColinJ (12 Dec 2020)

PaulSB said:


> My criteria is always quality of the ride and scenery. If that means lots of climbing so be it. I am a bit of a hill hunter but it's not a priority, it's the ride which counts.


At this end you would have the option of staying high and going to the little cafe in Heptonstall. It has reopened with new management since I used to go there. I think it is quite expensive. You would have much more choice of cafes if you did the quick, fun descent into Hebden Bridge, but then you would have a climb back up after your break, the choice being moderate (back the way you came down), quite hard (up through Heptonstall, including a stretch of cobbles), or b*st*rd hard - Mytholm Steeps!


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## PaulSB (12 Dec 2020)

@ColinJ Mytholm Steeps is on my list to climb so might as well do it while I'm there!

I've visited HB several times. Lots of good cafes.


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## ColinJ (12 Dec 2020)

@rog4747 - I hope that you have been helped by some of the answers.

Sorry for diverting your thread somewhat!




(It often happens on CycleChat, but I actually like that this forum isn't too rigid about staying on-topic. I was on another forum where I got an official warning after just once wandering slightly off-topic, and a threat of a ban for doing it again a week later. I gave up on them shortly afterwards - it felt like being back at school...)

I will just finish my little chat with Paul though...



PaulSB said:


> @ColinJ Mytholm Steeps is on my list to climb so might as well do it while I'm there!
> 
> I've visited HB several times. Lots of good cafes.


I assumed that so I had just put it in! 

Whalley to Whalley by my route comes in at about 78 km/49 miles. It's a lumpy, scenic route apart from about 20 minutes through Barrowford/Nelson on the way out and about the same round the western flanks of Burnley on the way back***. I'll check the route tomorrow and tidy it up then I'll edit this post and attach a couple of GPX files.



*** still lumpy, not so scenic!


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