# Rapha and Marco Pantini



## BSRU (30 Apr 2014)

I read Rapha has decided to release a commemorative Marco Pantani jersey.

Given his suspect past and Rapha's association with Sky is this a wise move?


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## Beebo (30 Apr 2014)

It's not got anything to do with Sky, and doesnt reflect on them.
Would you feel the same if they had a Tom Simpson jersey? both have questionable drugs records. And Pantani is still a cult figure.


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## Mr Haematocrit (30 Apr 2014)

Not at all if they want to sell them.
I personally have more likelihood of buying and wearing a commemorative Marco Pantani jersey than I am a Froome Jersey


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## BSRU (30 Apr 2014)

Beebo said:


> And Pantani is still a cult figure.


To some people but to some he epitomises what was wrong with pro cycling in the past.


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## rich p (30 Apr 2014)

I'm going to hold out till they produce a Riccardo Ricco commemorative jersey


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## Hacienda71 (30 Apr 2014)

How about a Rapha Livestrong Lance Jersey?


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## YahudaMoon (30 Apr 2014)

Hacienda71 said:


> How about a Rapha Livestrong Lance Jersey?



Id like the supermarklets Lidl or Aldi getting a team going using Rapha gear


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## LimeBurn (30 Apr 2014)

Pantani was an amazing rider to watch even if he did have a dubious past. Don't know whether I'd buy a jersey to commemorate him though.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

There are many similarities between Ricco and Pantani.
Yet one is reviled and the other held as an icon.
Think on.


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## Hacienda71 (30 Apr 2014)

YahudaMoon said:


> Id like the supermarklets Lidl or Aldi getting a team going using Rapha gear


 Ah but Aldi would make it look very similar but call it Papha


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

Oh for Christ sakes! Pantanis questionable history?? Every one dopes! Its just how it is.


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## raindog (30 Apr 2014)

'ere we go.......


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Oh for Christ sakes! Pantanis questionable history?? Every one dopes! Its just how it is.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

Here's a book worth reading, due to be published in July:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1472910354/ref=pe_25631_48287371_em_1p_4_ti


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## Hacienda71 (30 Apr 2014)

Watch out watch out there is a troll about.


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## LimeBurn (30 Apr 2014)

How do you know its worth reading if its not out till July?


Marmion said:


> Here's a book worth reading, due to be published in July:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1472910354/ref=pe_25631_48287371_em_1p_4_ti


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## rich p (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Oh for Christ sakes! Pantanis questionable history?? Every one dopes! Its just how it is.


You're new to the pro-cycling scene, right?


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

LimeBurn said:


> How do you know its worth reading if its not out till July?



Cos I read it in French when it was first published.


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

[QUOive "rich p, post: 3056290, member: 500"]You're new to the pro-cycling scene, right?[/QUOTE]

No ive had this opinion ever since 2004 and I get angry as fark every time I hear stupid shoot like that. Go race in Belgium clean. Pwaaaaa dropped dropped dropped


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> No ive had this opinion ever since 2004 and I get angry as **** every time I hear stupid **** like that. Go race in Belgium clean. Pwaaaaa dropped dropped dropped



You are basing this view on what?


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

That I've raced with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself


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## ufkacbln (30 Apr 2014)

BSRU said:


> To some people but to some he epitomises what was wrong with pro cycling in the past.



Yet we have a cult following for the equally dodgy Simpson?

This is far from a level playing field where some drugs cheats are acceptable, yet others are not!

Lets be clear and condemn all the cheats including Simpson


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## Shadowfax (30 Apr 2014)

Marmion said:


> You are basing this view on what?


 Racing in Belgium ?

You lot are funny.


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## Shadowfax (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> That I've raced with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself


 That shut him up !

laugh.


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## ufkacbln (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> That I've raced with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself



Do South African Calvinists have a cycling team?


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

So far as I can tell, I am unaware what Calvinist means.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> That I've raced with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself



You're a fantasist (which is not the same as a Calvinist, just in case you were wondering)


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## montage (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> That I've raced with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself



bullshite and we know it.


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## 400bhp (30 Apr 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> Yet we have a cult following for the equally dodgy Simpson?
> 
> This is far from a level playing field where some drugs cheats are acceptable, yet others are not!
> 
> Lets be clear and condemn all the cheats including Simpson



Yeah, let's condemn someone who is dead.


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

Not a popularity contest. Think what you like


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## oldroadman (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> [QUOive "rich p, post: 3056290, member: 500"]You're new to the pro-cycling scene, right?


at they want to believe.

No ive had this opinion ever since 2004 and I get angry as **** every time I hear stupid **** like that. Go race in Belgium clean. Pwaaaaa dropped dropped dropped[/QUOTE]

Well thanks for that, it is possible and I've done it. Won some money to live most weeks until a decent offer came along. I knew the score, didn't want to play that game, but still managed. The best bit is clean is clean in whatever country and you don't need to worry about what you can and can't get at a pharmacy. As did a lot of other people, but some don't want to hear that, because it's not what they want to believe, the reason they are getting hammered in their heads is that everyone else is juiced. Or maybe they can't quite go fast enough, can't suffer enough, trained well enough, simply not motivated enough. Whatever it may be. So, sir, it can be done, and a living can be made, and I can look my family in the eye, along with a good number of retired riders I know. None of which will convince the convinced.


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## 400bhp (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> That* I've raced* with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

oldroadman said:


> at they want to believe.
> 
> No ive had this opinion ever since 2004 and I get angry as **** every time I hear stupid **** like that. Go race in Belgium clean. Pwaaaaa dropped dropped dropped



Well thanks for that, it is possible and I've done it. Won some money to live most weeks until a decent offer came along. I knew the score, didn't want to play that game, but still managed. The best bit is clean is clean in whatever country and you don't need to worry about what you can and can't get at a pharmacy. As did a lot of other people, but some don't want to hear that, because it's not what they want to believe, the reason they are getting hammered in their heads is that everyone else is juiced. Or maybe they can't quite go fast enough, can't suffer enough, trained well enough, simply not motivated enough. Whatever it may be. So, sir, it can be done, and a living can be made, and I can look my family in the eye, along with a good number of retired riders I know. None of which will convince the convinced.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the thoughtfully written insight. Both sides are convinced though. Catch22
Oh for goodness sakes these quotes!


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## 400bhp (30 Apr 2014)

^^Jackle and Hyde^^

Must be a banana day.


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## montage (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Not a popularity contest. Think what you like



Stop making out you are an ex pro whilst also giving out shite advice


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

I'm not an ex pro nor am I making out to be one. And whilst I'm here. Good there's one guy whose come out and said he raced Clean and won yada yada. I can name 10 guys to that one who have doped in one way or another at one time or another


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> I'm not an ex pro nor am I making out to be one.



You said you have raced with dopers and "perhaps had a dabble myself" in a thread in Pro Cycling.


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

Don't wind me up


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## thom (30 Apr 2014)

Funnily enough, I just realised an analogy between cyclists doping and women having boob jobs. 
I mean, some people just like deception, wittingly or not, of others, themselves or both.


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## ayceejay (30 Apr 2014)

See, if you mix yer drugs. say aspirin and potassium, you are likely to see and hear things (AKA hallucinate) and find it hard to distinguish between fact and fiction. I 'dabbled' once and when all my hair fell out I thought I was Pantini until I came across a hill, I blame the demerera sugar in the flap jacks that someone mixed with mollases behind my back.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Don't wind me up



Are you The Hulk?


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

thom said:


> Funnily enough, I just realised an analogy between cyclists doping and women having boob jobs.
> I mean, some people just like deception, wittingly or not, of others, themselves or both.



Beautiful example.


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## thom (30 Apr 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Beautiful example.


I hope you understand the point - fakery is ultimately a cheap, vain and desperate resort, most often for self-gratification artists - you won't find many in this forum with a penchant for it or tolerance of it.


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## JasonHolder (30 Apr 2014)

Je ne compris pas. Mais ici nous est.


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## LimeBurn (1 May 2014)

Just woke my wife up through laughing. I'm in her bad books now.


Marmion said:


> Are you The Hulk?
> View attachment 43816


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## ufkacbln (1 May 2014)

400bhp said:


> Yeah, let's condemn someone who is dead.




Like Pantani?


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## thom (1 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Je ne compris pas. Mais ici nous est.


The correlation between being a self-gratification artist and being prepared to dope seems pretty high - nothing written in this thread would suggest otherwise.


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## Shadowfax (1 May 2014)

Guess I'll go and find out about Pantani elsewhere, what a bunch of jerks !

Sigh.


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## Mr Haematocrit (1 May 2014)

Pantini was the pirate, named such because of the bandana he always wore. Possibly the best climber of his generation and adored by many for his continuously attacking style. He was accused of doping but never actually tested positive and was only disqualified because of irregular blood values.
Pantani died from cocaine abuse in 2004 something he used to combat depression which he claimed was due to accusations regarding his doping.

Imho Pantini was a troubled soul who did not have the most fortunate of childhoods.I have no doubt in my mind that he was doping or that equally he was an exciting talent and character. He deserved to get banned and removed from the sport. He did not deserve to die alone to such a horrible drug and addiction.
It is sad that doping has destroyed hero's and superstars. It has taken the lives of young men who dreamed of racing bikes when they were younger.. Thats why I would wear a Rapha Pantini Jersey as I think its important to always remember the true cost of doping to the sport of cycling and nobody highlights this greater than Pantini. We need to remember to ensure it never happens again.


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## thom (1 May 2014)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> Pantini was the pirate, named such because of the bandana he always wore. Possibly the best climber of his generation and adored by many for his continuously attacking style. He was accused of doping but never actually tested positive and was only disqualified because of irregular blood values.
> Pantani died from cocaine abuse in 2004 something he used to combat depression which he claimed was due to accusations regarding his doping.
> 
> Imho Pantini was a troubled soul who did not have the most fortunate of childhoods.I have no doubt in my mind that he was doping or that equally he was an exciting talent and character. He deserved to get banned and remove from the sport. He did not deserve to die alone to such a horrible drug and addiction.
> It is sad that doping has destroyed hero's and superstars. It has taken the lives of young men who dreamed of racing bikes when they were younger.. Thats why I would wear a Rapha Pantini Jersey as I think its important to always remember the true cost of doping to the sport of cycling and nobody highlights this greater than Pantini. We need to remember to ensure it never happens again.


I wouldn't wear a Pantani jersey myself but I have to say, I can understand this argument and for me it is one of the best made arguments I have seen for remembering and marking Pantani's life in such a way.


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## gam001 (1 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> That I've raced with doppers and perhaps had a dabble myself


You're not good enough to have doped - we've seen some of your Strava rides
Although, from looking at some of your posts, maybe you were mistakenly injecting E*G*O


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## Mr Haematocrit (1 May 2014)

gam001 said:


> You're not good enough to have doped - we've seen some of your Strava rides
> Although, from looking at some of your posts, maybe you were injecting E*G*O



Does digital doping count 
http://www.digitalepo.com/


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## Leaway2 (1 May 2014)

Hacienda71 said:


> How about a Rapha Livestrong Lance Jersey?


The US Postal jerseys go for good money on Ebay.


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## JasonHolder (1 May 2014)

Haha 6th of April was my first time back on the bike after 7 years and only got shoes and bibs bought on the 10th. So chill out strava stalker.

And doping includes a whole range of things. so whilst it would be far fetched to say I was pushing blood bags into myself. Its not terribly far fetched to say someone took test and other anabolic jabs, e


gam001 said:


> You're not good enough to have doped - we've seen some of your Strava rides
> Although, from looking at some of your posts, maybe you were mistakenly injecting E*G*O



phidrine and prescription painkillers without having a chit.


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## jowwy (1 May 2014)

gam001 said:


> You're not good enough to have doped - we've seen some of your Strava rides
> Although, from looking at some of your posts, maybe you were mistakenly injecting E*G*O


Out him by posting his strava data lol


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## Hont (1 May 2014)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> Pantani died from cocaine abuse in 2004 something he used to combat depression which he claimed was due to accusations regarding his doping.
> 
> Imho Pantini was a troubled soul who did not have the most fortunate of childhoods.I have no doubt in my mind that he was doping or that equally he was an *exciting talent* and character. He deserved to get banned and removed from the sport. He did not deserve to die alone to such a horrible drug and addiction.


I recommend that anyone interested in Marco Pantani read Matt Rendell's excellent book - The death of Marco Pantani. It casts doubt on his talent, suggesting that his physiology reacted incredibly well to EPO. So rather than being a huge talent caught up in the doping of the times, the doping actually made him the rider he was. 

He certainly was, though, a troubled character and no-one deserves to die of a cocaine overdose. It is, by all accounts, both an unpleasant way to die and something that takes an enormous quantity of drugs to achieve.

I wouldn't buy a Pantani shirt any more than I would buy a shirt of anyone from that era.


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## JasonHolder (1 May 2014)

jowwy said:


> Out him by posting his strava data lol





jowwy said:


> Out him by posting his strava data lol



Out me?







Haha ilI'll save you the trouble princess.


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## oldroadman (1 May 2014)

Nothing wrong with the recorded ride - very pleasant little steady ride. It's a funny old digital world where anyone can post their records for all to see, still if that's what floats your boat, fine. I'm an old dinosaur, all to complicated for me, can hardly read my computer to see the averages and pulse rates!


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## JasonHolder (1 May 2014)

Isn't it just! I'm riding without any computer just yet


oldroadman said:


> Nothing wrong with the recorded ride - very pleasant little steady ride. It's a funny old digital world where anyone can post their records for all to see, still if that's what floats your boat, fine. I'm an old dinosaur, all to complicated for me, can hardly read my computer to see the averages and pulse rates!



.. Its very peaceful and a good way to enjoy yourself.


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## Rob3rt (1 May 2014)

£100 up in 5 races (might just about cover the price of a good tub) and clean as a whistle me, where do I sign?



JasonHolder said:


> Isn't it just! I'm riding without any computer just yet
> 
> 
> .. Its very peaceful and a good way to enjoy yourself.



Does Strava on a phone not count as a "computer"?


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## JasonHolder (1 May 2014)

Probably, if you're a bit pedantic


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## jowwy (1 May 2014)

JasonHolder said:


> Out me?
> View attachment 43850
> View attachment 43851
> Haha ilI'll save you the trouble princess.


Your obviously adverse to climbing princess - but never mind, maybe mammy will let you ride a big bike up some hills soon


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## JasonHolder (1 May 2014)

She says that yet hides her own strava.


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## rich p (1 May 2014)

This thread is pathetically off track and personal imho


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## Spinney (1 May 2014)

*Mod Message* please all stick to the original topic.
Any further personal arguments will be deleted.


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## Spinney (1 May 2014)

This means you @jowwy (amongst others)


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## jowwy (1 May 2014)

Spinney said:


> This means you @jowwy (amongst others)


My apologies


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## Shadowfax (2 May 2014)

Hont said:


> I recommend that anyone interested in Marco Pantani read Matt Rendell's excellent book - The death of Marco Pantani. It casts doubt on his talent, suggesting that his physiology reacted incredibly well to EPO. So rather than being a huge talent caught up in the doping of the times, the doping actually made him the rider he was.
> 
> He certainly was, though, a troubled character and no-one deserves to die of a cocaine overdose. It is, by all accounts, both an unpleasant way to die and something that takes an enormous quantity of drugs to achieve.
> 
> I wouldn't buy a Pantani shirt any more than I would buy a shirt of anyone from that era.


 Thanks for that I'll look it out.


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## Crackle (2 May 2014)

Hont said:


> I recommend that anyone interested in Marco Pantani read Matt Rendell's excellent book - The death of Marco Pantani. It casts doubt on his talent, suggesting that his physiology reacted incredibly well to EPO. So rather than being a huge talent caught up in the doping of the times, the doping actually made him the rider he was.
> 
> He certainly was, though, a troubled character and no-one deserves to die of a cocaine overdose. It is, by all accounts, both an unpleasant way to die and something that takes an enormous quantity of drugs to achieve.
> 
> I wouldn't buy a Pantani shirt any more than I would buy a shirt of anyone from that era.


It is the seminal Pantani book but it's a dense read, I never got through it.


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## Monsieur Remings (3 May 2014)

Jason, just a word from someone on this sub-forum who has held some pretty strong views himself (in other parts of the forum).

Try and research each sub-forum before launching straight in with a very dubious statement (regarding doping in this case). As others have said, it isn't thought well of here and whilst you are entitled to your view, think about your manner of delivery so that people are more likely to engage you in conversation as opposed passing you off as a troll. This isn't meant as an insult.

Are you an ex-professional? Were you aware of the sub-forum title 'Pro-Cycling'? There is a place for those who have, or still do race but here it's about the professional peloton. You'll notice even _oldroadman_ uses the past-tense...


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## Flick of the Elbow (7 May 2014)

At the time I loved watching Pantani race but definitely feel ambivalent now.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (7 May 2014)

Crackle said:


> It is the seminal Pantani book but it's a dense read, I never got through it.



Perhaps it's not the book but the reader that is dense.


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## JasonHolder (11 May 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Jason, just a word from someone on this sub-forum who has held some pretty strong views himself (in other parts of the forum).
> 
> Try and research each sub-forum before launching straight in with a very dubious statement (regarding doping in this case). As others have said, it isn't thought well of here and whilst you are entitled to your view, think about your manner of delivery so that people are more likely to engage you in conversation as opposed passing you off as a troll. This isn't meant as an insult.
> 
> Are you an ex-professional? Were you aware of the sub-forum title 'Pro-Cycling'? There is a place for those who have, or still do race but here it's about the professional peloton. You'll notice even _oldroadman_ uses the past-tense...


Understood thanks.Unfortunately I do come across a git over the net and that cannot be helped unless I refrain from venturing on. Which is not practical with an opinion as loud as mine, appreciate your advice though.
Pro cycling sub for pro cycling people only. Got it.
I have incidentally raced in several national road race championships being the highlight as a junior as well as 2 years under fully sponsored teams. But its not about me. Loads of people just asking for credentials bless them.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (16 May 2014)

The movie is released today:
http://pantanifilm.com/


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## Pro Tour Punditry (18 May 2014)

Marmion said:


> The movie is released today:
> http://pantanifilm.com/



I is off to watch it on Fursday


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## Monsieur Remings (21 May 2014)

Any good? I really want to see this film.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Any good? I really want to see this film.



Today is Fursday so I'm going this evening and will let you know my verdict once I get home.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2014)

A general rambling post before moving onto the movie: that must be the first time in years (15 or so if not longer!) that I have been to a movie that was not a kids movie. An audience full of adults is strange entity; there were blokes dressed in Team Sky t-shirts and Rapha t-shirts and I wondered if in years gone buy they'd have worn a sheriff's star to go watch a James Stewart western; there were "hipster cyclists" with their manbags and tight skinny jeans who arrived just in time; one bloke in his cycling top who could not find his ticket and spent ages rummaging through his rucksack, whilst all the time I was looking at him thinking "it'll be in your back jersey pocket you nobber", who then found it in his back jersey pocket; a few couples who appeared not quite sure if they had made the right choice; blokes in groups with bottles of Sol; and a group of "women of a certain age" a couple of rows in front of me, one of whom asked "so what's this about?" to which one of her group replied "a cyclist", a moment of silent contemplation from the questioner and then "that fellow Armstrong?" at which point I wanted to vault the seats and slap her...I missed the conversation for a short while and then heard her say something like "oh before that, he must be one of the original cyclists". I pictured myself chopping her head off at this point.

Onto the movie: a good mix of old footage, pictures, comment from contemporaries, Wiggins saying a few sentences (not quite sure why he appeared tbh), Rendell providing some context, and comment from Pantani's parents and friends, and those involved in anti-doping at the time; and interviews with Pantani himself. The story was well enough told, some quite amusing moments when he buggered off up the road on turbo power which drew chuckles from the "race chaps in the know" in the audience, some quite sad moments especially when his mother was speaking, and some very insightful comments from Pantani during his interviews which I'd imagine were creatively edited but to good effect.

Overall I thought it was worth watching, it presented him as a victim of the system, warm, driven and fragile. It also highlighted the extent of EPO abuse in the peloton in the 90s. Not as in-depth as the book, but not surprising as the book involved some quite complex data. 

I suppose that's quite a neutral review; I didn't want to rush back and watch it again but I would if the chance arose.


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## Monsieur Remings (22 May 2014)

Thanks Marmion; I'm going to go and see it anyway.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2014)

Monsieur Remings said:


> Thanks Marmion; I'm going to go and see it anyway.



Definitely worth going to see - although the best bit of my trip was being able to visit a nearby shop and buying some of the excellent pakora and nan breads. They are particularly good tho.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (22 May 2014)

I'd never get a job as a movie critic would I?


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## Andrew Br (22 May 2014)

Marmion said:


> I'd never get a job as a movie critic would I?



I don't know.
You seem to have summed up the film quite well* and the description of the audience is something that Mark Kermode doesn't do enough.
He's certainly not, to the best of my knowledge, wanted to slap anyone watching a film, unless they've breached his (sensible IMO) rules.

* I haven't seen it yet; I'm hoping to fit it in somehow. Your review has encouraged me .

.


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## marcusjb (23 May 2014)

The film is certainly worth seeing and it is a reasonably balanced take on some interesting times in pro cycling. 

His story is fascinating and much of the footage reminds you just how exciting he was to watch and makes you long for someone so combative in the peleton today.

Could have done without the graphic shot of Casartelli early in the film - it is a haunting image that has been with me since the incident and it isn't one you need to see again. 

The wheel and the centrifuge cliche got a little tiring (especially using a shimano hub......). 

At the end of the day, it doesn't provide answers, but highlights the questions of 'darker' forces at work.

As I said, I think it is reasonably balanced in then end. Some astonishing footage of pantani putting the hammer down. 

It was definitely worth seeing - whether it was worth the £19!!! that Curzon Victoria charged me is debatable.


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## rich p (23 May 2014)

marcusjb said:


> The film is certainly worth seeing and it is a reasonably balanced take on some interesting times in pro cycling.
> 
> His story is fascinating and much of the footage reminds you just how exciting he was to watch and makes you long for someone so combative in the peleton today.
> 
> ...


Yebbut.....
... he was able to put the hammer down and keep it down cos his blood was as thick as pea soup. His attacks wouldn't have been as explosive or decisive in the modern era - cf Contador post-steakgate.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (23 May 2014)

rich p said:


> Yebbut.....
> ... he was able to put the hammer down and keep it down cos his blood was as thick as pea soup. His attacks wouldn't have been as explosive or decisive in the modern era - cf Contador post-steakgate.



For me, that point was not made in the movie or if it was it was not made strongly enough. His explosions of speed were all "fuelled" by EPO but the impression left from the movie was that he would have still been a champion - which we should all know by now is not the case! The movie also did not highlight just how early in his career he was taking doping products. But, as I said, it was decent enough.


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## suzeworld (25 May 2014)

Marmion said:


> I'd never get a job as a movie critic would I?


I disagree. The audience review was priceless.

Thanks.

It got a warm review in a paper I read, Grauniad I think. I am just trying to find a local-ish showing as I really want to see cycling footage on a big screen.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (25 May 2014)

suzeworld said:


> I am just trying to find a local-ish showing as I really want to see cycling footage on a big screen.



Here's the listings of where it's showing, hopefully one nearish to you, I have no idea where Stoke is:
http://pantanifilm.com/#about-us


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## suzeworld (26 May 2014)

Thanks.
Stoke on Trent is in the Midlands, about 1/2 way between Manchester and Birmingham. It offers great cycling into the Peak District, but otherwise a fairly depressing location.

I might see it at Shrewsbury


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## threebikesmcginty (26 May 2014)

Marmion said:


> Here's the listings of where it's showing, hopefully one nearish to you, I have no idea where Stoke is:
> http://pantanifilm.com/#about-us



Stoke is one of the places earmarked for removal to Scotchland once the yes vote goes through.


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## Hont (26 May 2014)

marcusjb said:


> ... whether it was worth the £19!!! that Curzon Victoria charged me is debatable.


 Did they pick you up from home and drop you back after the film as well?


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## rich p (26 May 2014)

The Duke of York, Brighton – 24th June
Our local arty farty picture house. I may need convincing that I want to see it though.
edit - I'm away on hols then, so my indecision has been decided.


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## Apollonius (26 May 2014)

Pantani is still revered in Italy. Yesterday was Pantani day in the Giro. I took a picture of a huge mural yesterday on the climb of Montecampione where Pantani won n 1998. There is one of Hinault further up. I guess they will have to find space for Aru now. Sorry, can't upload it as I had hoped as I am on an Android device.
Lots of people doing the tribute thing yesterday. Old shirts, pirate style headscarves. Nobody talking about drugs (well, I guess, my Italian is more than limited!)
What did Pantani do to get forgiven that Armstrong didn't? OK, rhetorical question. I think we know.


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## Pedrosanchezo (26 May 2014)

DVD/Bluray available to buy now also..............

Amazon
Zavvi


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## thom (26 May 2014)

I ordered the DVD. I </begin Oirish> made the calculation </end Oirish> and it is the same price as a cinema viewing in London and I hope to learn something. But I have mixed feelings about Pantani and indeed my interest was piqued by a link to Michael Hutchinson's new book about his obsession to eke out more speed. Clean. The kindle excerpt talks about him beginning to feel regret as reduced doping later in his career brought the performances of others within his reach as indeed his powers diminished. I might prefer to see a film about him.


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## Pedrosanchezo (26 May 2014)

@thom 

Have recently started reading his book and i find it both amusing and interesting. He has quite a dry sense of humour. 
I do think he's a bit nuts though! Sleeping in an altitude tent every night for weeks on end is not the behaviour of a normal person. He has pretty much tried everything legal to eek out more speed.


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## suzeworld (27 May 2014)

threebikes mcginty said:


> Stoke is one of the places earmarked for removal to Scotchland once the yes vote goes through.



I love the cycling in Scotland.


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## thom (31 May 2014)

Watched The Pantani film last night. Interesting as it was, it is weak on many important journalistic aspects.
There is a good amount of insinuation that isn't followed up, for example why a young Pantani described the people in cycling as like the Mafia.
They don't seem to ask any difficult questions of the team owner, his best mate or his mother about how much they knew about his doping. The story of how he was singled out for testing isn't fleshed out as much as it could be. And for me, the strange and perhaps unique venerating relationship in Italian culture between Tifosi and cyclist isn't questioned.

This is a biopic rather than a documentary - the opportunity to ask difficult questions is avoided in preference of cycling footage.

Edit: That said, there are extras I haven't watched yet that may offer something different.


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## suzeworld (8 Jun 2014)

So they finally got it on Manchester ( today and Weds at the corner house).. Well worth the £6 ticket, and added pleasure of type-spotting in the audience with the help of Marmion's pocket-guide. 

Loved the contributions from his mum, she made me cry a couple of times. Enjoyed the sight of the classic footage on a big screen. Broadly i agree with the other comments made already. 

I left the cinema wondering which of the great victors was ever clean in the past? If you're going to be black and white about doping in cycling you may as well give up any interest on it, and certainly ignore the past altogether and not revere any of them. Which I am not going to do.

Maybe the only certainly honest way to enjoy this sport is to get on your bike n peddle for fun. 

>>>aside I have read the whole thread now, is this sub-forum 'really' only for professionals? I'll slide off now, then .. I only got directed here cos I asked about this film.


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## thom (9 Jun 2014)

suzeworld said:


> >>>aside I have read the whole thread now, is this sub-forum 'really' only for professionals?


Whatever gave you that impression ? 
It is about pro racing and in my opinion is at it's best and friendliest when concerned with current racing events. Unfortunately it has a bad side, often getting sidetracked away from the racing as such by people pre-occupied with narrow issues. The next 2 months surrounding the tour will be the worst for this. Then it becomes saner during the Vuelta again.


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## martint235 (9 Jun 2014)

Mr Haematocrit said:


> Pantini was the pirate, named such because of the bandana he always wore. Possibly the best climber of his generation and adored by many for his continuously attacking style. He was accused of doping but never actually tested positive and was only disqualified because of irregular blood values.
> Pantani died from cocaine abuse in 2004 something he used to combat depression which he claimed was due to accusations regarding his doping.
> 
> Imho Pantini was a troubled soul who did not have the most fortunate of childhoods.I have no doubt in my mind that he was doping or that equally he was an exciting talent and character. He deserved to get banned and removed from the sport. He did not deserve to die alone to such a horrible drug and addiction.
> It is sad that doping has destroyed hero's and superstars. It has taken the lives of young men who dreamed of racing bikes when they were younger.. Thats why I would wear a Rapha Pantini Jersey as I think its important to always remember the true cost of doping to the sport of cycling and nobody highlights this greater than Pantini. We need to remember to ensure it never happens again.


^^^This. 

The cocaine abuse, to me, was a personal thing to Pantani. If we accept that he did dope (although as Mr H says no positive test) he still made a lot of people (also highly suspect in the doping bit) look incredibly ineffective whenever the road went upwards.

Doper? Probably. Entertaining? Certainly. Would I wear a Rapha Pantani top? Probably not but only cos I think Rapha is poncy. (I already have a Pantani t-shirt)


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## suzeworld (9 Jun 2014)

@ Thom. I got the impression from some things said in this thread. Pleased to hear I was mistaken.

I'm not a regular here, but I like a bit of Tour related chat, so that's when I mainly come by.


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## rich p (9 Jun 2014)

martint235 said:


> ^^^This.
> 
> The cocaine abuse, to me, was a personal thing to Pantani. If we accept that he did dope (although as Mr H says no positive test) he still made a lot of people (also highly suspect in the doping bit) look incredibly ineffective whenever the road went upwards.
> 
> *Doper? Probably*. Entertaining? Certainly. Would I wear a Rapha Pantani top? Probably not but only cos I think Rapha is poncy. (I already have a Pantani t-shirt)


Probably?????
The only doubt is weather he had more EPO than blood or the other way round


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## martint235 (9 Jun 2014)

rich p said:


> Probably?????
> The only doubt is weather he had more EPO than blood or the other way round


Yes but he did comfortably beat people who were equally full of EPO


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## themosquitoking (9 Jun 2014)

martint235 said:


> Yes but he did comfortably beat people who were equally full of EPO


I think we should all take it and then there would be no arguments.


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## rich p (9 Jun 2014)

martint235 said:


> Yes but he did comfortably beat people who were equally full of EPO


I can't believe I'm still having these discussions after all this time but it's been clearly shown that some people benefit more than others from PEDs.
Anyway, that's my last word!


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## martint235 (10 Jun 2014)

rich p said:


> I can't believe I'm still having these discussions after all this time but it's been clearly shown that some people benefit more than others from PEDs.
> Anyway, that's my last word!


 Awww Rich, but this is me!!! You know you like talking to me. I sometimes explain a vagary of IT, you sometimes explain a vagary of performance or recreational drug use


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## simon briggs (10 Jun 2014)

I think Pantani was a great 90's icon - but only from a 90's perspective when most pro riders were on EPO - is he as bad as Armstrong? - no I don't think he was (perhaps from a drugs perspective) but not from a bulling / arrogance point of view.

I don't condone drug use at all - but its all relative. I have just read the excellent Merckx book the Cannibal. Everyone would class Eddy as the greatest cyclist the world has ever seen, but there are question marks towards the end of the book about Merckxs drug use. However I would still rate him as one of the best sportsperson that has ever lived....

Would you class wiggins in the same field? Yes hes won a TDF but he would never have targeted the spring classics, Giro, TDF in the same year (like Merckx) - but perhaps thats because he isn't full of drugs!!!


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