# Audaxing with tubeless



## pkeenan (19 Apr 2016)

I realise this is more of a technical question, but I'm posting it here because I want to put it specifically to audax riders:

Is anyone doing long distance riding tubeless? What are people's thoughts on the pros and cons of a tubeless set-up for audaxing? If anybody has any insight I would be most grateful. 

Thanks!


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Well, being as you asked, here is my "story" about going tubeless, are you sitting comfortably, then I shall begin....

Anyway, I just purchased a pair of 23mm Schwable One tubeless tyres and set about the task of fitting them this afternoon. I went for 23mm version as I wasn't sure how wide they would be in the real world and I don't have a huge amount of mudguard clearance. But now I have seen the 23mm's, I think that I could have got away with the 25mm version now.....but arr well, maybe next time.

Overall the installation was really quick, simple and pretty painless to be honest and an awful lot easier than fitting non tubeless MTB tyres as tubeless!!

I used a compressor for the first one but just a track pump for the second, no problems with either. Both tyres inflated and seated instantly up and on to the wheel rim beads. But to be fair I did use tyre soap and I think that I would certainly recommend using it.

I would also suggest NOT to put any sealant in until you have the tyre beads seated on both sides of the wheel rim. Then deflate the tyre, remove the valve core and syringe in the 2ozs of liquid Latex, then re inflate up to the required pressure.

The Schwable tyres were a little tight to fit, but no worse than some road tyres that I have fitted in the past to be honest. I didn't need to utilize any levers either, just made sure that the tyre was seated right in the wheel well all the way around to give you the most spare tyre to play with. The last bit you can roll over the rim and then pull the tyre upwards to allow the bead to unfold underneath its self.

But in the event of some serious side wall damage out on the road I dont think that I would like to have to remove the tyre plus the liquid Latex contents in order to fit a tube by the side of the road. I would imagine that would be a right swine as everything would be plastered in the Latex sealant. With the best will in the world that's not gonna be a couple of minutes repair is it?

So, lets see some figures then:-

Shimano 6700 Ultegra (front) wheel inc skewer - 738 grammes

As above fitted with a 23mm GP4000s tyre and Continental 'Light' innertube - 1025gr

As above wheel, now fitted with 23mm Schwable One Tubeless tyre and 2oz of Stans No Tubes - 1126gr

Making a total weight difference of 101gr

While I was at it, I decided to weigh some other tyres just out of interest:-

Schwable One (Tubeless) 23mm - 297gr
GP4000S 23mm - 212gr
4 Season 23mm - 242gr
Pro 3 23mm - 189gr
Pro 4 Endurance 23mm - 232gr
Pro 4 Endurance 25mm - 245gr
Vittoria Pave 25mm - 261gr

Continetal Race 28 'Light' innertube 42mm - 75gr

2ozs of Stans No Tubes - 91gr

So I guess that its road test time now and lets see how much of a difference it makes or feels. As a starting point I will be trying 80/85psi in the front and 90 psi in the rear.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Of course I can only comment on the Schwable One version, but I have just done 43 miles and I have to say that I am seriously impressed.

Certainly no more harsh a ride than any other tyre that I have ever ridden on to be honest. BUT..........the feel of them is very addictive and its even more noticeable when you get out of the saddle. They feel very much like a tubular tyre, very responsive and they certainly appear to be a fast rolling tyre. I even did a couple of quickish sprints up some short damp inclines and no apparent issues with grip, and given they are new tyres and not properly scrubbed in was equally surprising.

So the first part of the test is therefore deemed to be a success with a huge thumbs up.

The second part of the test is how well the sealant responds in the event of a puncture?

And finally, the third and final test, what happens in the event of a catastrophic failure that necessitates the need to install a inner tube. To be honest, I predict an acropoliptic mess and turmoil!!


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Well the third and final test was last Saturday, when I rode over some broken glass and I ended up with a 10mm slash across the tyre and of course instant deflation.

In truth no amount of sealant was ever going to seal that, despite my vain attempts at trying.

And there was little point in attempting to add an inner tube unless I could have stuck something inside the tyre to prevent the tube was protruding out via this 10mm slash. But with the sealant still very much in evidence nothing was ever going to adhere to the inner face of the tyre long enough to get me home. Notwithstanding the fact that the tyres are a "very" tight fit let alone having the sealant all over your hands and over the rim etc to hinder you even more. So it was phone call home to Mrs W to come and get me.

To be fair, even a normal clincher tyre and tube combination would have cut up as badly as the tubeless one did. BUT.....at least you could have stuck a Park Tyre Repair Boot on the inside of the tyre in order to get you home.

Consequently the slash has rendered the tubeless tyre scrap as I am not prepared to risk repairing it, which is a real shame as despite the mileage on them to date, it has worn really well.

I would guesstimate that the rear has lasted at least double the miles of my normal clincher tyres. Whether that is down to it being tubeless or the construction of the Schwalbe One tyre, I don’t know?

Conclusion

Yes it is a proper faff to set up but to be honest I have enjoyed the 6000 puncture free miles ridden on the tubeless tyres and no more harsh a feel than a normal tyre/tube combination. During this period of time and to the best of my knowledge no punctures, other than a minor cut a couple of weeks ago. But the sealant worked and it got me home okay, which is the plus point. However, the subsequent removal of the tyre in order to repair it was even more of a faff. And back then I questioned myself as to if it was really worth the hassle or not?

But needless to say I decided to stay with them.

However, after Saturdays more major incident, with regret it was the straw that broke the camel’s back and the remaining good tubeless front tyre has been removed and clinchers and tubes have been refitted front and rear.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Well it finally happened; I’ve had my first puncture in the rear tubeless set up since first installed in back in May and it’s fair to say that I have learnt a few valuable lessons as a result.

To start with before I felt the rear tyre going soft I heard the very slight hissing sound on the wet roads as I was riding home in the rain on Saturday.

*Mistake number one*, I continued to ride assuming that it would seal itself, but it didn’t so I was then forced to stop and investigate further. The problem was actually a cut roughly about a couple of mm in length rather than a thorn type puncture. So with the wheel rotated so that the cut was at the lowest point I inflated the tyre and sure enough it sealed ok.

*Mistake number two*, instead of giving it a few minutes to fully "cure" I was off again and no surprises but within a couple of miles it was clear that it was still losing pressure. So repeated the same again, this time allowing more time! Rode home and the tyre was still inflated after an hour, so happy days.

However, considering that it was a cut, rather than a thorn related puncture, was I really 100% happy to rely on some liquid latex sealing the cut and more importantly holding fast while say descending at 40+mph? Of course the answer is no, I wasn’t happy.

So we now move into unknown terrority, removing a tyre to add a patch to reinforce the carcass while it’s still containing 2oz of sealant.

Popped one side of the tyre off and was quite shocked to see that no liquid Latex sealant was remaining at all in the tyre? Instead what greeted me was continuous fawn coloured bead of sealant about 20mm wide and a couple of mm thick stuck fast around the whole inside circumference of the tyre and a lightly covered coating on both of the inner sidewalls either side of it. There was a small amount of sealant remaining, maybe a couple of tea spoonfuls if that? I do however accept that when the cut first occurred the sealant would have started to escape but when I stopped it wasn’t exactly gushing out, just a rather feeble drop every now and then, so certainly not a significant lose at all.

Fully removed the tyre and dropped it in a sink of hot water and washing up liquid and set about cleaning the solidified sealant off. In truth it wasn’t too bad to remove, and armed with an old scrubbing brush and the tyre folded inside out, after 1/4hr all done and back to “as new”.

With the tyre fully dried, I squeezed the cut open from the inside and dropped a tiny drop of superglue in the cut and then pinched it shut to fully seal the cut. Then as a belt and bracers repair, I then added a Park self adhesive patch, job done.

Before refitting the tyre, I decided to remove the No Tubes valve that is screwed into the rim as there was a certain amount of congealed sealant around it. Now this is where I could see a problem out on the road if you encountered a catastrophic failure in the tubeless tyre and you were forced to fit a tube. Your first obstacle would be removing said valve unless you just happened have access to a pair of pliers?

With the valve suitably cleaned and replaced, one side of the tyre was refitted…….now comes the faff! You have to fit an inner tube and then fully install the tyre and then inflate to maximum pressure or until you hear the tyre popping on to the wheel beads either side of the rim. To be honest its best to utilize a compressor to get that sudden high volume of air in order to get both the beads to seat. NOTE - I have never had any joy doing this without the use of tyre soap. With the both beads “popped” into place, now deflate the tyre and remove one side of the tyre again, remove the inner tube and inflate the tyre again.

Now deflate the tyre yet again and remove the valve core, using a Stan No Tubes syringe screwed onto the valve, inject in the 2ozs of sealant. Some people add the sealant direct into the tyre when the one side of the tyre is removed, but personally I find this to be messy if the beads don’t seal and you have to remove to add more tyre soap.

*Mistake number three*, the amount of sealant in the tyre needs to be checked on a regular basis and it was clear that after three months during the summer months and in the regions of 4500 miles, most of it has solidified rendering the puncture resistance pretty much useless! So a note has been put in my diary to check it again in a couple of months time and it’s a simple enough process, just remove a small section of one side the tyre and peep inside and see what still remains in liquid form.

Failing that, just add a could of ounces of sealant every two months and after a year you will be sure to never get a puncture again as you would effectively have a solid tyre!!!

So all in all, its fair to say that I’m not 100% convinced with tubeless tyres at the moment due to the amount of faffing about with 1) the initial installation. 2) in the event of a cut tyre and the need to repair. That said, it got me home and if it was dark and raining then it would have been a blessing. So I think that I will see the life of the tyres out first or if I get another puncture and see whether or not I scrap the idea and revert back to inner tubes again?

To be fair, even if it was a tubed tyre combination, I would still have taken the tyre off to repair the cut so the extra hassle is the sealant and getting the tyre to reseat on the beads. And its also very clear that in order to afford yourself the best possible puncture resistance you need to be checking the contents of the tyre at least evry couple of months, in the summer months at least.

The odd thing is, I have been running tubeless tyres on my MTB for at least the last eight years and not suffered any problem with the sealant solidifying at all and encountered many minor punctures all of which have sealed near enough straight away without the need to stop and inflate. But I suspect that it down to the difference in working pressures between road and MTB tyres?

_EDIT - It is worth noting that Stans No Tubes do recommend checking/replacing the sealant every 2 to 6 months dependant on the climate._


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## pkeenan (19 Apr 2016)

Thanks @AlanW! That's a pretty comprehensive overview indeed!

I think, on balance, I will stick with what I know. It does sound like it has pros, but for repair-ability and practicality I think it's probably not for me.

This also helps me narrow down my rim choice (looking for new rims for the audax bike)!

Thanks again.


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Believe me, I think or should I say thought that tubeless is the way to go, but based on my own personal experiences its clearly an ongoing maintenance programme to ensure that there is enough sealant. That said, Stans No Tubes is by no means the only sealant out there and there are claims from other manufacture's sealant will not dry out or congeal. Wickens and Soderstrom No 8 sealant for example, a little known product that has being getting good reviews to date.

If it wasn't for the fact that I suffered that catastrophic failure then I would probably still be on tubeless and be quite unaware of what "may" happen.

Its funny, but while I was at the UK Handmade Bicycle Show over the weekend, I went to a talk by a Schwable person all about the benefits of going tubeless and how "easy" it was to fit them and how "easy" it was "just" to install a tube in the event of a sidewall failure. Easy in a workshop environment I'm sure?

Now try doing it when you are cold, raining and your tired and everything is covered in liquid Latex, then tell me its easy......?? And even then, not quite sure what you could "stick" on the inside the tyre to stop the tube from poking out?

Plus, and a point I didn't mention above, but it would appear that Stans No Tubes also tends to make the tyres go a little softer over time, chemical reaction apparently between the rubber and the ammonia in the sealant? What this also does, as I later found out, it perishes the Park self adhesive patch and also a TipTop patch and the TipTop valcanising adhesive to the point that both patches came off.


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## jay clock (19 Apr 2016)

I went through the same pain 10 years ago with an MTB. Then fitted a tube after about half a mile of my very first ride. @AlanW has saved me a load of hassle and money


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## AlanW (19 Apr 2016)

Just to also add, and this may seem like a contradiction to everything that I have already said above. But I went tubeless on the MTB at least eight years ago and have nothing but praise for it. To the point that I have always said that it is probably the best modification I have done in years. I run around 25 to 30 psi and its fantastic not having to worry about pinch punctures.

But in fairness the MTB does not get anywhere the usage that the road bike gets and as such I have never had any issues with lack of sealant and when I have extracted a thorn after a ride the tyre has sealed every single time without fail. But and at the risk of tempting fate, to date I have not suffered a sidewall cut or a cut that required the insertion of a tube in order to get me home. The difference as I see it, at least with a MTB tyre you have more space to work when fitting a tube, so in theory it shouldn't be as bad?

Setting up was a right swine though, as I choose to use non tubeless specific tyres to keep the weight down. Nightmare trying to get the tyre to seal on the rim because the sidewalls were so flimsy and refused to seal, but hey we got there in the end after much swearing!! It also took a bit of sealant to get the sidewalls to seal and hold pressure as they were quite porous in the beginning.


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## frank9755 (22 Apr 2016)

I've ridden tubeless for the last year including PBP. No problems, and no punctures. 
I'd recommend it. The main benefit is not so much that you get fewer punctures, but that you can use fast tyres in the winter without being scared of getting punctures, so the ride is just a bit more pleasant.
I've just bought a second set of tubeless wheels.


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## Elybazza61 (22 Apr 2016)

Did my longest ride so far on tubeless yesterday;141kms with no cuts or anything,Schwalbe Pro Ones too.


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## marcusjb (23 Apr 2016)

The audax points champion rides tubeless. Some bloke rode like 60000 miles on tubeless last year.

Seems to work for them. You will be fine.


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## goody (23 Apr 2016)

I don't think you'll get less punctures with tubeless, a piece of glass or flint can make its way throuh a tubeless tyre just as it does with a conventional one. But in my experience it 'usually' means you can carry on without having to stop and carry out a repair. As long as the hole is small enough for the sealant to block the hole and as long as the sealant is fresh enough and theres sufficient in the tyre. You'll just lose a bit of pressure but will probably be able to finish your ride. Useful on a big sportive, special day out etc. Whenever I've known I've had a puncture with tubeless (and you will know because of the intermitent hissing as the wheel goes round and the fountain of sticky latex covering your bike) I remove the tyre, patch the inside where the hole was and refill with fresh latex (I use stans). I've just got back from Lanzarote, the roads there aren't the best and theres a fair bit of gravel etc along the edge of the road. Day one got a puncture in rear tyre, sealed itself finished my ride and pumped the tyre up at the end of the day. Day two no issues. Day three another puncture in rear tyre sealed itself finished my ride and pumped the tyre up at the end of the day. Day four noticed the tyre had gone down overnight. Repairing the holes and refilling with sealant wasn't really an option so had to put a tube in. Tubeless have a place but for multi-day rides or times when I'm away from my garage I'll use tyres with a degree of puncture resistance, Durano's did me well last year almost all the qualifying rides and PBP with one puncture.


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## AlanW (25 Apr 2016)

I had exactly the same opinion as everyone else, I loved tubeless and was convinced it was the way to go for all the reasons mentioned above.

BUT.......its not until you get a badly cut tyre that requires a fitment of a tube plus a road side repair on the tyre to stop the tube from poking through that it really does become a problem. Yes okay I accept that I was unlucky and if it had never happened then I would still be running tubeless now to be honest.

The other gripe is every that every three months (at the very minimum) you need to check the level of sealant remaining and top it up if required. Which I accept is no big deal for the protection it offers you. During last summer when I first converted over to tubeless, I had my first puncture after about three months, to be fair it sealed and it got me home, so its did its job. But the cut was reasonably big so as a belt and bracers jobbie, I decided to remove the tyre and patch it from the inside as well. That's when I discovered: a) how little sealant was remaining in both wheels. b) how it had all congealed around the inner circumference of the tyres rendering the infectiveness pretty poor.

BUT........IMHO you need to remove the congealed mess that is lined around the inside of the tyre first, otherwise you just keep adding another 2ozs of sealant. Thus slowly increasing the rolling mass till you'll end up with a solid tyre! So that's a couple of hours spent faffing about, which isn't a great deal, but guaranteed it will always need to be done when you simply haven't got that two hours to spare!


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## Ming the Merciless (26 Apr 2016)

Been running tubeless for just over 27,000 miles. One puncture when riding slowly up hill in winter. It healed when I picked up speed at top of hill. Able ride home on it quite happily. So yet to have to fix a puncture. I run the Hutchinson Sector 28s which roll better than my old Durano 23s.

Generally run them at 70psi for that sweet spot of good rolling and comfort. Check sealant every 4 months or so. In between top up pressure every couple of weeks or before a long audax. I've ran them as low as 40psi and quite rideable but wouldn't want to corner fast.

I have a Panracer kit for repairs that don't auto seal. It doesn't require removal of tyre or wheel from bike. Haven't used on road tubeless but used on mtn bike which has been tubeless 10 years now.


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## AlanW (27 Apr 2016)

Its fair to say that I was pretty unlucky when I ended up cutting the tyre so badly that it required a tube to be fitted. But the fact remains that it happened and therefore it could happen again......anywhere. On this occasion, thankfully I was on our usual Saturday bash route so MrsW was able to come and get me. 

In the past when running normal clinchers and tubes and suffering a catastrophic cut or gash like this, this type of repair utilising a Park Tyre Repair boot has seen me up and running again within 1/4hr give or take with no fuss, no trauma and more importantly no mess!!!

I'm genuinely happy that people are pleased with tubeless, and honestly, part of me wants to go back to it for all the positive reasons. But from that one negative experience its left a real bitter taste, which I'm sure people can understand why, once bitten, twice shy as they say.

But I would also be interested to hear about peoples experiences that have also been forced to fit a tube in order to get home and how they managed?


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## pkeenan (15 May 2016)

Thanks for the contributions from all. Sorry for dredging this up after a few weeks of silence! Thought I'd close this thread off with a minor update: 

I've ordered some tubeless rims: it makes no sense to upgrade the rims to tube only when there is the possibility of running tubes or tubeless. It would seem there aren't many options for 32 hole 700c tubeless rims! So I've gone for the Stans Grails, which I've heard lots of good things about. 

I'll definitely give tubeless a go, for curiosity. Thanks again for all the various thoughts, experiences and opinions!


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