# Shocked by peoples reluctance to spend relatively small amounts on a bike.



## Cyclopathic (16 Aug 2013)

Someone wanted me to do some work on their bike but it was obvious that they thought I was ripping them off. It was a nice example of a Raleigh Pioneer. It needed a new back wheel (cassette type) New rear brake blocks (Annoying calliper peg type) The front was jammed and needed freeing and the gears needed indexing. These were what I considered essential to getting it rideable. I also advised that they should have all cables replaced as they were rusty in places and have a new chain fitted. 
When I told them it would be about £80 for this (and that was being kind I thought) they looked at one another (for it was a couple) and mumbled to each other about how it was supposed to have been a cheap bike to get to work on.
I asked how much they paid for the bike. £25 was the answer and they even seemed pissed off at that because of the back wheel situation. Even though I tried to explain to them that a Raleigh Pioneer in good condition having been serviced and supplied with a brand new back wheel for a little over £100 was quite good really they still seemed to think that it was too much. 

What is wrong with people. They are going to save the price of the bike in bus fairs within a couple of months. If you spend £25 on a bike then that's what you get. The days of buying a bike that's in perfect nick for £25 have gone. I get the feeling that they wouldn't baulk at the silly prices garages charge for car repairs or the stupid prices of bus and train fairs but bikes should be dirt cheap and bike mechanics willing to work for nothing. If it's that easy then do it yourself.
Rant over. Kindly sympathetic comments welcome. Harsh, get over it comments may make me cry.


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## yello (16 Aug 2013)

People generally do not appreciate that a person's time costs money. Or that trades people have to earn a living.

My wife, an upholsterer, gets that sort of thing too. Asked to quote to recover a sofa, the response has been 'but we could buy a new one for that'. Which is true. If you want a cheap sofa!

Something that amuses/amazes me is the ignoring of postage costs. Some will haggle over a price only to spend a fortune on postage. No surprise then that ebay traders sell cheap and make money back on postage.


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## Supersuperleeds (16 Aug 2013)

Do you work in a bike shop or are you a freelancer? I would have thought £80 for that work was reasonable


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## fossyant (16 Aug 2013)

My wife is a keen dress maker and often gets asked why she doesn't do it as a business. Answer is people won't pay.

Got my mates MTB in the garage. He dropped it round to sort. Basically needs now brakes and discs. Advised him it will be about 100. Needless to say the bike is still in my garage awaiting repair and the money. He knows its a quality bike 2k ish with XT and XTR.


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## hopless500 (16 Aug 2013)

Cyclopathic said:


> Someone wanted me to do some work on their bike but it was obvious that they thought I was ripping them off. It was a nice example of a Raleigh Pioneer. It needed a new back wheel (cassette type) New rear brake blocks (Annoying calliper peg type) The front was jammed and needed freeing and the gears needed indexing. These were what I considered essential to getting it rideable. I also advised that they should have all cables replaced as they were rusty in places and have a new chain fitted.
> When I told them it would be about £80 for this (and that was being kind I thought) they looked at one another (for it was a couple) and mumbled to each other about how it was supposed to have been a cheap bike to get to work on.
> I asked how much they paid for the bike. £25 was the answer and they even seemed ****ed off at that because of the back wheel situation. Even though I tried to explain to them that a Raleigh Pioneer in good condition having been serviced and supplied with a brand new back wheel for a little over £100 was quite good really they still seemed to think that it was too much.
> 
> ...


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## Cyclopathic (16 Aug 2013)

Supersuperleeds said:


> Do you work in a bike shop or are you a freelancer? I would have thought £80 for that work was reasonable


 
I'm freelance. Just getting started really and trying to build up a customer base. I think it was areasonable price. I certainly knocked a bit of the rrp for the back wheel. Such is the way of things that items are available at way below the rrp on line. Although I can't match many of these by a fair way I still have to knock some of just to sound reasonable.
Pricing jobs has been one of the most difficult thing about the whole thing. I'm happy to keep the prices fairly low as I establish myself but I do try to keep in line with what other shops charge for similar work. I just stay in line with the lower priced shops.
What really galled me was just as he was about to leave with his lovely, all working bike he looked at the back wheel and said, "Oh, didn't it have a reflector on the other wheel" His point was a fair one no doubt as I had indeed forgotten to swap the reflector over but after all I'd been through to keep his costs low it just struck me at the time as a bit petty. Needles to say I found it and put it on for him with good grace but still. Grrrr. 
Which reminds me he had asked me about lights and so completely free and for nothing I fitted some that I have had lying around for ages that was never going to use. They weren't fantastic lights by a long way and I told him so but I said that they would do until he felt he could afford better ones. Honestly a bloody wheel reflector he notices. Sheesh.


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## Cyclopathic (16 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> My wife is a keen dress maker and often gets asked why she doesn't do it as a business. Answer is people won't pay.
> 
> Got my mates MTB in the garage. He dropped it round to sort. Basically needs now brakes and discs. Advised him it will be about 100. Needless to say the bike is still in my garage awaiting repair and the money. He knows its a quality bike 2k ish with XT and XTR.


 
That's effing insane? I bet if he had a car worth 2k that he wouldn't hesitate to spend £100 on a couple of tyres or brake pads and would have considered it a bargain. Why the eff do people think bikes are not worth paying for. I know they can be pricey in some cases but even then they are bloody cheap compared to all other forms of transport. And a lot more enjoyable.
I have to say though that this case of mine is not the usual scenario. Most people are just happy that their bike can be fixed and that they don't have to do it but there is the odd one or two that just will not accept that it costs money.


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## fossyant (16 Aug 2013)

It is insane. I spent a couple of hours checking the bike out then said what it would cost. He has gone very quiet despite reminders. Tempted to offer a couple of hundred for it as he bought it for 500 from a mate some years ago. If I was to buy it I would upgrade the wheels.


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## carolonabike (16 Aug 2013)

I used to make fused glass jewellery and on many occasions had to deal with people appalled at the cost of a pendant (£24 at the time). 'How much? I can get them on Ebay for a fiver'. Well yes, you can, because they are mass produced in China, mine are handmade in my studio (shed) at home.
Unfortunately a lot of people have lost sight of the true cost of labour.


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## byegad (16 Aug 2013)

Over the last 6 years I've spent as much as I spent on my last car (Which I had for 6 years.) on acquiring and servicing my three trikes. I don't think it's excessive as I love riding the trikes and don't like driving any more. But.. Tell someone who isn't a cyclist, let alone a recumbent triker, how much even the cheapest trike cost and they walk away shaking their heads!
Their loss IMHO.


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## fossyant (16 Aug 2013)

So what do you recon a full susser with rock shock psylo sl front and rock shock rear with a mix of XT and XTR is worth. Has no brakes though. About 10 years old but very little use.


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## Tcr4x4 (16 Aug 2013)

I get this all the time as a photographer, and also in my job collecting garage waste.

People think you owe them something for doing work for them.. Its crazy. If someone does something for me, I pay them, simple as.

At work, we collect drums of used oil filters from cars. There must be 200+ filters per drum and we charge a fee to collect the drum and dispose of the filters. 
We supply the drum, travel to the customer, give the relevant paperwork etc..

50% of my customers still moan like crazy when I ask them to pay. I then ask them how much they charge for an oil and filter change.. Most of the time its over £80. 
So they have already made over the cost of collecting a drum with 1 oil change, times that by 200 oil changes and I think they are getting a bloody good deal.


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## Hacienda71 (16 Aug 2013)

I think part of the problem is that people who don't cycle on a regular basis will think "I can get a new full suspension mountain bike with disc brakes for not much more than that from Argos or Sports Direct." They don't appreciate the difference between a BSO and a decent older bike. I bet thouusands of good 70's and 80's bikes with Reynolds frames are chucked on the local tips every year, despite the fact they are perfectly useable and could make really nice bikes again.


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## cd365 (16 Aug 2013)

You should work in I.T., you can spend hours trying of get a virus off a PC to save their data that they haven't backed up but don't want to lose it, and then they offer you a four pack of beer or a cheap bottle of supermarket wine. I've stopped doing favours unless it is close family and friend and I price myself high for others so they will not bother me again.


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## on the road (16 Aug 2013)

Cyclopathic said:


> Someone wanted me to do some work on their bike but it was obvious that they thought I was ripping them off. It was a nice example of a Raleigh Pioneer. It needed a new back wheel (cassette type) New rear brake blocks (Annoying calliper peg type) The front was jammed and needed freeing and the gears needed indexing. These were what I considered essential to getting it rideable. I also advised that they should have all cables replaced as they were rusty in places and have a new chain fitted.
> When I told them it would be about £80 for this (and that was being kind I thought) they looked at one another (for it was a couple) and mumbled to each other about how it was supposed to have been a cheap bike to get to work on.
> I asked how much they paid for the bike. £25 was the answer and they even seemed ****ed off at that because of the back wheel situation. Even though I tried to explain to them that a Raleigh Pioneer in good condition having been serviced and supplied with a brand new back wheel for a little over £100 was quite good really they still seemed to think that it was too much.
> 
> ...


I can see where you're coming from, but I can also understand their point of view. I'm a cheapskate myself, I refuse to pay labour charges so that's why I do my own repairs as much as possible, both on my bike and even on my car, I reckon I've saved a few hundreds of pounds worth of labour over the years both on the bike and on the car.


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## tyred (16 Aug 2013)

Hacienda71 said:


> I think part of the problem is that people who don't cycle on a regular basis will think "I can get a new full suspension mountain bike with disc brakes for not much more than that from Argos or Sports Direct." They don't appreciate the difference between a BSO and a decent older bike. I bet thouusands of good 70's and 80's bikes with Reynolds frames are chucked on the local tips every year, despite the fact they are perfectly useable and could make really nice bikes again.


 
I rescued my 1958 Raleigh Trent from a skip and it has turned into one of the nicest riding bikes I have ever experienced. Apart from tyres and cables, the only expense was finding a replacement 4 speed block after I accidentally broke the original.


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## tyred (16 Aug 2013)

on the road said:


> I can see where you're coming from, but I can also understand their point of view. I'm a cheapskate myself, I refuse to pay labour charges so that's why I do my own repairs as much as possible, both on my bike and even on my car, I reckon I've saved a few hundreds of pounds worth of labour over the years both on the bike and on the car.


 
I'm like that do in that I try to everything I can myself but sometimes, you will not have the tools, knowledge or experience to tackle something and it is reasonable to expect the "expert" you employ to charge for his time. We all have to make a living.

Obviously the people in the OP with the Raleigh Pioneer didn't have the knowledge, skills, or tools to sort it out themselves so they are going to have to get someone else to do it and they need to expect that at the very least they will have to cover the expenses plus whatever the value the OP puts on his time (likely a lot less than a car mechanic). Their alternative is to acquire the skills themselves or buy a new bike. They are free to shop around. To complain about it is nonsense.


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## ayceejay (16 Aug 2013)

I always think of that old chestnut about the factory that was shut down because there was a problem with the assembly line, they were losing thousands by the minute and none of the firms engineers could fix it "Too old" they said "Obsolete system." Then somebody suggested contacting 'old Bob' that used to work in the factory but is freelance now. Bob came and fixed it in about ten minutes, his bill came to £153.00. The factory manager said "153 quid for ten minutes work?" Bob said "The breakdown is £2 for the time £1 for the gizmo and £150 for the knowledge of where to put the gizmo."


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## Markymark (16 Aug 2013)

I get similar often at work. 

"£3 to print off a few bw sheets of paper? Must cost you 5p"

"Yes, plus the £100,000 a year for rent, wages, leasing, computers, software etc etc etc "

We have customers paying a few £ to those paying several thousand for large print orders. The arguments are ALWAYS at the bottom end.


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## Phil Fouracre (16 Aug 2013)

Cyclopathic - great post, I have every sympathy, been self employed for 30 years! Best response in this situation would be, well feck off then, and find someone stupid enough to do it for less.


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## SpokeyDokey (16 Aug 2013)

Cyclopathic said:


> Someone wanted me to do some work on their bike but it was obvious that they thought I was ripping them off. It was a nice example of a Raleigh Pioneer. It needed a new back wheel (cassette type) New rear brake blocks (Annoying calliper peg type) The front was jammed and needed freeing and the gears needed indexing. These were what I considered essential to getting it rideable. I also advised that they should have all cables replaced as they were rusty in places and have a new chain fitted.
> When I told them it would be about £80 for this (and that was being kind I thought) they looked at one another (for it was a couple) and mumbled to each other about how it was supposed to have been a cheap bike to get to work on.
> I asked how much they paid for the bike. £25 was the answer and they even seemed ****ed off at that because of the back wheel situation. Even though I tried to explain to them that a Raleigh Pioneer in good condition having been serviced and supplied with a brand new back wheel for a little over £100 was quite good really they still seemed to think that it was too much.
> 
> ...


 

You have my sympathies - you are *issing in the wind with people like that. Leave them to sort the problem themselves and don't give way. £80.00 seems a good deal to me.

I get this in my small business from time to time and I just take the view that if what I need for a job to be viable and what the customer wishes to pay are poles apart then they are not my customer. Or conversely I am not their provider.

End of conversation at that point.


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## Hill Wimp (16 Aug 2013)

Cyclopathic said:


> I'm freelance. Just getting started really and trying to build up a customer base. I think it was areasonable price. I certainly knocked a bit of the rrp for the back wheel. Such is the way of things that items are available at way below the rrp on line. Although I can't match many of these by a fair way I still have to knock some of just to sound reasonable.
> Pricing jobs has been one of the most difficult thing about the whole thing. I'm happy to keep the prices fairly low as I establish myself but I do try to keep in line with what other shops charge for similar work. I just stay in line with the lower priced shops.
> What really galled me was just as he was about to leave with his lovely, all working bike he looked at the back wheel and said, "Oh, didn't it have a reflector on the other wheel" His point was a fair one no doubt as I had indeed forgotten to swap the reflector over but after all I'd been through to keep his costs low it just struck me at the time as a bit petty. Needles to say I found it and put it on for him with good grace but still. Grrrr.
> Which reminds me he had asked me about lights and so completely free and for nothing I fitted some that I have had lying around for ages that was never going to use. They weren't fantastic lights by a long way and I told him so but I said that they would do until he felt he could afford better ones. Honestly a bloody wheel reflector he notices. Sheesh.


 


Can i meet you on the M1 around Luton and hand over my Dolce for its yearly service. You would have people queuing out the door down here for those prices. Hope the business takes off.


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## PhunkyPhil (16 Aug 2013)

I think the sad point isn't that your costs were high as they are reasonable considering you are buying parts but their expectation that a bike which costs less than my break blocks would last forever.


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## Milzy (16 Aug 2013)

They're just nobbers!


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## Accy cyclist (17 Aug 2013)

I've mentioned it before that my LBS is dirt cheap on parts and labour. He always asks timidly for the fee then i always add on 20% on as he does a decent job and i want to see his shop stay open! Another local bloke who had a mobile bike repair business charged nearly 50 quid an hour for labour! He retired last year saying that he'd had enough of working. He's either mad to give up such a lucrative business,or he's not making anything because he's so expensive,or he's made that much money with his hourly rate that he can afford to retire?!


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## Canrider (17 Aug 2013)

£80 including the cost of the new wheel? You should have handed them a rim, hub and a handful of loose spokes and said 'You can try doing it yourselves'--that would have put The Fear into them..


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## Saluki (17 Aug 2013)

People are strange. I get asked why my prices are so high all the time. I am a dog groomer and I travel to the client's home, set up my kit, bath and dry their dog, clip and scissor, toe nails etc etc, put up with lots of inane chatter (not all my customers are inane, some are just wonderful) hoover up afterwards and then they try to haggle saying £30 is a lot of money, will I take a tenner. No I flaming won't.

If I hear "there's a recession on you know" one more time from a customer with a 60" plasma tv, brand spanking new leather 3 piece and a TV in each room, I will scream.

I have a good mechanic and pay a reasonable rate for his work, I have a great vet and pay a lot for his work. Mechanics, Electricians, Plumbers etc charge a decent hourly rate for their work but I can't get anything like that, bike mechanics can't but hairdressers charge a heck of a lot. My neighbour pays £45 for her haircut and she is in the chair for 45 minutes. £1 a minute. Nice pay if you can get it.

If all us small businesses charged (and got) what we were worth in terms of training, experience and skill I am sure we would all be most happy. People are paying us to do a task that they are incapable of doing, Then they moan about the cost.


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## ColinJ (17 Aug 2013)

I was once asked to make some changes to some software that I had written a couple of years earlier. I didn't really want to go back and change it, but thought I should be reasonable and reluctantly agreed to do it. I thought it would take about 3 days and said that I wanted £300. The company tried to argue that I was overcharging so I said that I was going to ask 2 questions and I wanted honest answers ...

Would the man asking me to do it be prepared to do it himself for less than twice what I was charging? (Answer: Er, _no_!)
Was the company charging the customer at least ten times what I was asking for? (Answer: Er, _yes_!) 
In the end, they paid me my £300.


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## classic33 (17 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> So what do you recon a full susser with rock shock psylo sl front and rock shock rear with a mix of XT and XTR is worth. Has no brakes though. About 10 years old but very little use.


Its only worth what the buyers' prepared to pay. How much are you prepared to pay?


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## I like Skol (17 Aug 2013)

Hacienda71 said:


> I think part of the problem is that people who don't cycle on a regular basis will think "I can get a new full suspension mountain bike with disc brakes for not much more than that from Argos or Sports Direct." They don't appreciate the difference between a BSO and a decent older bike. I bet thouusands of good 70's and 80's bikes with Reynolds frames are chucked on the local tips every year, despite the fact they are perfectly useable and could make really nice bikes again.


 I bought an immaculate 1991 Raleigh roadbike off ebay for £48 and sold some of the tasteless 'upgrades' fitted in the quest for 'improvement' for nearly £30. I had more suitable retro bits in the spares box and now my son has a lovely 531 framed bike with a new junior sized saddle for a little over £20.

Who says good bikes aren't dirt cheap


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## I like Skol (17 Aug 2013)

Saluki said:


> People are strange. I get asked why my prices are so high all the time. I am a dog groomer and I travel to the client's home, set up my kit, bath and dry their dog, clip and scissor, toe nails etc etc, put up with lots of inane chatter (not all my customers are inane, some are just wonderful) hoover up afterwards and then they try to haggle saying £30 is a lot of money, will I take a tenner. No I flaming won't.
> 
> If I hear "there's a recession on you know" one more time from a customer with a 60" plasma tv, brand spanking new leather 3 piece and a TV in each room, I will scream.
> 
> ...


 
I do all my own bike repairs, car servicing/repairs, decorating, nail clipping and hair cutting. How much should I be paying myself?


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## Gravity Aided (17 Aug 2013)

Amazing. 80 Quid for an oil change?
I used to work in the Photography Industry, mostly as a manager of stores and laboratories. I'm happier driving a 'bus, thank you, with free time to ride bicycles. Processing was the same way. People brought their film to our lab, and wanted the quality we gave, for the price at Walgreens. As a _bicycle repair consultant_, I sometimes sell or trade bicycles to pawn shops and thrift stores . I help them when they find a whattzit bike or part. And I often take trades as part or full payment. Much less grief than the "General Public" Mrs. GA likes the self-supporting aspect of the hobby. Having seen the business end of business, as our old shop owner used to call it, (GRHS-Last Week) I can sympathise with the OPs plight. Courtesy, respect, and service, no matter what. Grumble later, to sympathetic ears.


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## SpokeyDokey (17 Aug 2013)

Saluki said:


> People are strange. I get asked why my prices are so high all the time. I am a dog groomer and I travel to the client's home, set up my kit, bath and dry their dog, clip and scissor, toe nails etc etc, put up with lots of inane chatter (not all my customers are inane, some are just wonderful) hoover up afterwards and then they try to haggle saying £30 is a lot of money, will I take a tenner. No I flaming won't.
> 
> If I hear "there's a recession on you know" one more time from a customer with a 60" plasma tv, brand spanking new leather 3 piece and a TV in each room, I will scream.
> 
> ...


 
I get the whole point of your post and do agree with some of the sentiment. I have a wealthy-ish to wealthy client base for my small business and I am occasionally amazed when a jaw drops at my prices but to be fair it doesn't happen too often.

However, what you have done there is what customers/potential customers sometimes do; they assume that _what you charge is your pay_. 

By the time all overheads (including the oft forgotten by small businesses; depreciation) 'pay' is nowhere near the headline figure. Which you'll know anyway.

Re: charging. Businesses _do_ get what they are worth. At the end of the day, customers ultimately set the prices due to supply and demand. Whether the service provider thinks their services are worth more is neither here nor there.


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> It is insane. I spent a couple of hours checking the bike out then said what it would cost. He has gone very quiet despite reminders. Tempted to offer a couple of hundred for it as he bought it for 500 from a mate some years ago. If I was to buy it I would upgrade the wheels.


 
Do it. Do it. He doesn't appreciate what he's got. Just remember to low ball the guy because as we all know it's only a bike and you can pick a bike up from the scrap yard can't you. Grrr


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

fossyant said:


> So what do you recon a full susser with rock shock psylo sl front and rock shock rear with a mix of XT and XTR is worth. Has no brakes though. About 10 years old but very little use.


 
I'm not well up on my mountain bikes. I'd have to do a bit of research on the internet and ask around but at a glance I'd say not a bargain bucket bike by any means. Brakes can be sorted quite cheaply and well from new and can be up-graded at a later date. I'm a believer in an optimum price for something i.e brake set that costs £200 isn't necessarily going to be 4 times better than one that cost £50 etc..
I think though that if he paid £500 for a 10 year old bike with that spec he got a good deal or at least a fair one.
If he's gone quite on you it might well be worth offering him something for it or it might be worth trying to encourage him to spend a bit now to get a really good bike. Tell him that the alternative is to sell this one and put the money towards a bike that is in full working order but it won't be half the bike he could have for just biting the bullet and getting the job done. It's called wear and tear and all mechanical systems suffer from it. If you keep a Rolls Royce well maintained then in 20 years you still have a Rolls Royce. etc..


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

on the road said:


> I can see where you're coming from, but I can also understand their point of view. I'm a cheapskate myself, I refuse to pay labour charges so that's why I do my own repairs as much as possible, both on my bike and even on my car, I reckon I've saved a few hundreds of pounds worth of labour over the years both on the bike and on the car.


 
Well quite, you do the work yourself. I can see where they were coming from only insofar as they were unaware of the time it can take and the costs of actually doing it for a living.
I like to think I offer something a bit different to Halfords and other big chains. I did try to save his original back wheel even though I knew it was futile. I just wanted to at least have tried and to have told him so honestly. The chain which was rusted up and could ideally have done with replacing (for which I'd have charged £15 to fit a chain with an rrp of £13) I took off, wire brushed, washed in parafin, replaced and oiled to the point where it virtually looked new. I had also tested it with a wear guage so knew it still had life in it I did not just put a chain back on that was effed.
In short I went the extra mile, which is something I want to do for my customers circumstances permitting. Ihear a lot of tales of woe from people who have had bad experiences with bike shops big and small and I have had those experiences myself and been made to feel uncomfortable and patronised which is something I want to completely avoid. So yes I see it from their point of view but I think their point of view was wrong in this instance.


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

tyred said:


> I'm like that do in that I try to everything I can myself but sometimes, you will not have the tools, knowledge or experience to tackle something and it is reasonable to expect the "expert" you employ to charge for his time. We all have to make a living.
> 
> Obviously the people in the OP with the Raleigh Pioneer didn't have the knowledge, skills, or tools to sort it out themselves so they are going to have to get someone else to do it and they need to expect that at the very least they will have to cover the expenses plus whatever the value the OP puts on his time (likely a lot less than a car mechanic). Their alternative is to acquire the skills themselves or buy a new bike. They are free to shop around. *To complain about it is nonsense*.


 
I have to be fair to them here and make it clear that they did not actually complain to me. What they did was talk between themselves in front of me about how they had only really intended it to be a cheap bike to get to work on. They are both very nice people and did understand things a bit more when I explained it to them.
When I wrote the op I was still reeling so it may have come out sounding like I had something against them personally which I did and do not so I apologize to any one who got that impression. What they did though was to illustrate a certain mindset that some people have towards bikes and how their price and maintenace are not perhaps as worthy as other things. I used this couple as an examople as it was so fresh in my mind.


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

ayceejay said:


> I always think of that old chestnut about the factory that was shut down because there was a problem with the assembly line, they were losing thousands by the minute and none of the firms engineers could fix it "Too old" they said "Obsolete system." Then somebody suggested contacting 'old Bob' that used to work in the factory but is freelance now. Bob came and fixed it in about ten minutes, his bill came to £153.00. The factory manager said "153 quid for ten minutes work?" Bob said "The breakdown is £2 for the time £1 for the gizmo and £150 for the knowledge of where to put the gizmo."


 
I've met quite a lot of people on whom I'd know exactly where to put the gizmo.


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## yello (17 Aug 2013)

You're a saint sir. Perhaps even too nice to be in business  I sincerely hope not. Going the extra mile, having a bit of personal pride, is where the sole trader could have the advantage over the faceless chain store. I wish you every success.


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

Phil Fouracre said:


> Cyclopathic - great post, I have every sympathy, been self employed for 30 years! Best response in this situation would be, well feck off then, and find someone stupid enough to do it for less.


 
They were alright people really, I was just venting spleen about this particular attitude. I have said as much to one customer who basically wanted something for nothing but went about it in a much more objectionable way and would do again in the future. Attitude certainly has a lot to do with it. I can forgive some ignorance but I absolutely cannot stand people with a sense of entitlement. Entitlement in short to my bloody money.


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## Saluki (17 Aug 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> I get the whole point of your post and do agree with some of the sentiment. I have a wealthy-ish to wealthy client base for my small business and I am occasionally amazed when a jaw drops at my prices but to be fair it doesn't happen too often.
> 
> However, what you have done there is what customers/potential customers sometimes do; they assume that _what you charge is your pay_.
> 
> ...


 
I know that hairdressers don't actually earn £1 a minute, most of them are on minimum wage plus any tips. I just meant to point out that people don't baulk at paying a hairdresser £45 for a cut and blow dry (I would though) and are then shocked that their dog costs 2/3 of that cost for a lot more work.
My neighbour has asked us, just this morning, to fix her bike for her. We will gladly sort it out for her but we did say that she needed a couple of tyres as hers are knacked, which she agreed were definitely past their best and pointed out the hole in one of them and the split in the other. After showing her Wiggle, she was amazed that tyres cost so much - I suggested Schwalbe Land Cruiser Tyres at £13.59 each. I have them on my MTB and they are great for what I need them for and I think for commuting to work over the track they will be great for her. She asked if we would get them on our account (???) and she will give us some jam and a bottle of wine for the 'work' on her bike. What she is asking is will we fix her bike, pay out £27 and change and not ask for any recompense for the parts. We will happily fix her bike for free but she needs to buy her own tyres which I will fit. She rang Howards for a quote for a full service and 2 tyres and the had to have a sit down. It was not an expensive quote by any measure. It was less than £100.
Needless to say the bike is going back in the shed untouched.

As someone was saying before about fixing computers etc for friends. I used to be a Network Engineer back in the late 90s and I got the whole 'will you fix my PC thing' and I would spend hours sorting out their little network and PCs for a 'Ta, see you soon then'. Now I tell them I'm a luddite and have forgotten most of it, which is true


----------



## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

yello said:


> You're a saint sir. Perhaps even too nice to be in business  I sincerely hope not. Going the extra mile, having a bit of personal pride, is where the sole trader could have the advantage over the faceless chain store. I wish you every success.


 
Thanks. I can afford to do little extra bits when there are no bikes waiting in the wings and little things like the lights I was never going to use and took me 10 minutes to fit will hopefully stay with them and they will tell their friends who have bikes. I sometimes give away old pumps that I'vge aqiured or fit a second hand bell that's knocking about. Stuff that cost me nothing. Technically I could charge a couple of quid for these bits and bobs but I think the gesture buys far more than £2 good will.


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## Cyclopathic (17 Aug 2013)

I like Skol said:


> I bought an immaculate 1991 Raleigh roadbike off ebay for £48 and sold some of the tasteless 'upgrades' fitted in the quest for 'improvement' for nearly £30. I had more suitable retro bits in the spares box and now my son has a lovely 531 framed bike with a new junior sized saddle for a little over £20.
> 
> Who says good bikes aren't dirt cheap


 
It can be done I know but I think you have to have a certain amount of luck. Also you obviously have experience and know what you are looking at so can spot a bargain. It's far more the exception than the rule these days. For one thing there are a lot of knowledgeable people like yourself around snapping up these bargains.
Good knobble though. I know I'd have been as pleased as punch to have pulled off that deal. You could make your fortune if you could find a couple of those a day.


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## cd365 (17 Aug 2013)

ColinJ said:


> I was once asked to make some changes to some software that I had written a couple of years earlier. I didn't really want to go back and change it, but thought I should be reasonable and reluctantly agreed to do it. I thought it would take about 3 days and said that I wanted £300. The company tried to argue that I was overcharging so I said that I was going to ask 2 questions and I wanted honest answers ...
> 
> Would the man asking me to do it be prepared to do it himself for less than twice what I was charging? (Answer: Er, _no_!)
> Was the company charging the customer at least ten times what I was asking for? (Answer: Er, _yes_!)
> In the end, they paid me my £300.


 
Wow, £300 is stupidly cheap for three days programming work and they argued. I would have told them to forget it and when they came back the price would have gone up to £500.


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## ColinJ (17 Aug 2013)

cd365 said:


> Wow, £300 is stupidly cheap for three days programming work and they argued. I would have told them to forget it and when they came back the price would have gone up to £500.


It was 10 years ago, but I was still pretty peeved. I was aware that the company would invoice the customer for thousands and considered that charging only 10% of that was a damn good deal!


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## cd365 (17 Aug 2013)

It was a fantastic deal, even 10 years ago what you did was worth at least twice what you charged. I can't believe they moaned.
Even then I don't remember being able to get a developer in for a hundred a day!


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## lesley_x (18 Aug 2013)

I'm a dentist so you can imagine the comments I get about cost. £6 for a filling on the NHS? Considering I give 50% of that to my boss for materials then pay tax I'm left with roughly £2 for a basic filling. 

And I studied 5 years at university for this! What a mug!


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## ianrauk (18 Aug 2013)

lesley_x said:


> I'm a dentist so you can imagine the comments I get about cost. £6 for a filling on the NHS? Considering I give 50% of that to my boss for materials then pay tax I'm left with roughly £2 for a basic filling.
> 
> And I studied 5 years at university for this! What a mug!


 


Go private.


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## lesley_x (18 Aug 2013)

ianrauk said:


> Go private.


 
Haven't seen one private job in my area for years! People just can't afford it. My colleague works in a private practice part time and she is making no money because people won't pay anymore.


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## ianrauk (18 Aug 2013)

lesley_x said:


> Haven't seen one private job in my area for years! People just can't afford it. My colleague works in a private practice part time and she is making no money because people won't pay anymore.


 


Move to SE Englandshire........
You need middle class....


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## SpokeyDokey (18 Aug 2013)

lesley_x said:


> I'm a dentist so you can imagine the comments I get about cost. £6 for a filling on the NHS? Considering I give 50% of that to my boss for materials then pay tax I'm left with roughly £2 for a basic filling.
> 
> And I studied 5 years at university for this! What a mug!


 

Help me understand please. Dentistry appears to me to be a pretty well paid occupation.


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## ayceejay (18 Aug 2013)

As a landscape designer I was sometimes invited into a clients home, for me it was a good indication of taste, and I quickly learned that money and taste are not related at all.
To cut my diatribe really short if it appears to be desirable for whatever reason then people will pay extraordinary amounts of money for it.
"A car sir, you want to buy a car?"
"We have a Volt that is environmentally friendly, you might even say organic at £16000.00"
"Jeez that's a lot of money"
"Well then we have a Skoda at slightly less"
"What about that sleek black one with the chrome grille?"
"Oh the Bentley you mean, that comes in at £250000.00 after discount." gulp.
"And if I pay cash what's your best price?"


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## Saluki (19 Aug 2013)

I like Skol said:


> I do all my own bike repairs, car servicing/repairs, decorating, nail clipping and hair cutting. How much should I be paying myself?


£30 per hour, minimum  Unless you feel like giving yourself a payrise and then the sky is the limit


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## pplpilot (19 Aug 2013)

I'm a software engineer for the manufacturing industry. I have clients that spend upwards of 0.5m sometimes in excess of 1.5m on machine tools and nearly faint when we quote them £20k for software to actually make them work! 9/10 the same people have 100k worth of car in the 'directors' parking space that is loosing them money but begrudge 20k for something that will make them money. Mental.


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## ColinJ (19 Aug 2013)

I once asked a friend if he would pay me £100 of every extra £500 of profit that I brought into his business (by promoting it online) but he refused point blank on the grounds that he "_would be the one doing all the hard work_"! 

I thought it was a very strange way of looking at it; if I could give my friends £100 for every £400 that they helped me earn, then I would jump at the chance!


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## EltonFrog (19 Aug 2013)

I am occiasionly asked when I quote a price, lets say £150.00 for example "is that your best price?" My reply is always, " no I have a better price, it's £175.00. Whatever I quote it's always £25.00 more than the original quote if they ask for a better price.

Shuts them up quick.


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## screenman (19 Aug 2013)

ColinJ said:


> I once asked a friend if he would pay me £100 of every extra £500 of profit that I brought into his business (by promoting it online) but he refused point blank on the grounds that he "_would be the one doing all the hard work_"!
> 
> I thought it was a very strange way of looking at it; if I could give my friends £100 for every £400 that they helped me earn, then I would jump at the chance!


 
You got a deal, when can you start?

One part of my business is PDR, for this I can often charge £45 for 10 minutes works, I often get customer give me a tip on top. As one famous comedian nearly said, it is how you sell em!


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## EltonFrog (19 Aug 2013)

I meant to add, never ever sound apologetic or defensive of your fees or quotes. Your price is your price, never discount, unless you are getting something in return. ( I have been known to discount slightly on my original quoted price in lieu of doing slightly less hours, but it's a very rare practice) never ever provide your services free of charge. Ever.


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## screenman (19 Aug 2013)

Dscount! go wash your mouth out, a very dirty word.

As a trades person if anyone asks for a discount I will not give one, if I did my heart and soul would not be in the job. I do however always offer a fair and honest price for each job, based on many factors.


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## ColinJ (19 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> You got a deal, when can you start?


The problem is - how to prove how much extra profit has been made!  With my friend, it would have been easy - he had just told me that bookings were only running at 50%, so if I had done something to get them to (say) 80%, I would have considered my 20% to be 20% of the extra 30% takings since he had already covered his fixed costs in his original 50%.



screenman said:


> One part of my business is PDR, for this I can often charge £45 for 10 minutes works, I often get customer give me a tip on top. As one famous comedian nearly said, it is how you sell em!


What does PDR mean? (I looked the term up here but there are loads of variations!)


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## screenman (19 Aug 2013)

Paintless dent repair/removal.

This is one of mine, I know it is a bit of a mess but I am struggling to get the right web guy.
www.dentex-pdr.co.uk/


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## Moda (19 Aug 2013)

carolonabike said:


> Unfortunately a lot of people have lost sight of the true cost of labour.



Too many people know the price of everything but the value of nothing.


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## Moda (19 Aug 2013)

lesley_x said:


> And I studied 5 years at university for this! What a mug!



Nothing personal  but has anyone ever seen a poor dentist?


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## vickster (19 Aug 2013)

One of my client companies turns over $100bn a year...recently my contact had a quibble about £30 parking at Gatwick...after I got up at 5am, home at 10pm, and had to fly sleazy jet

My hourly charge out rate is ridiculous, I wouldn't pay it


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## vickster (19 Aug 2013)

Moda said:


> Nothing personal  but has anyone ever seen a poor dentist?


 
I have and am looking for a new one!


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## ColinJ (20 Aug 2013)

When mobiles first came in, my manager told me to take a company phone home one weekend, to keep it with me at all times, and to remain sober, close to a computer with an internet connection, and ready for work from 08:00 - 00:00, in case our technicians out on a site visit needed support. I asked how much standby money was being offered. The figure that he had in mind was 'zilch', but I would be paid for any work I actually did, in multiples of 1/4 hour, rounded down! I politely declined ... We had a lengthy discussion about it. He couldn't see that me giving up my plans for the entire weekend was worthy of a payment. In the end, I squeezed £20-odd out of him.


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## mcshroom (20 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> Paintless dent repair/removal.
> 
> This is one of mine, I know it is a bit of a mess but I am struggling to get the right web guy.
> www.dentex-pdr.co.uk/



Is it just me, or does your job seem to involve staring at a weird blue dildo?


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## screenman (20 Aug 2013)

You are the first person to ever think that, odd how some peoples mind works..


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## Cubist (20 Aug 2013)

@mcshroom ....I take it you know how to delete browser history?


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## ColinJ (20 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> You are the first person to ever think that, odd how some peoples mind works..


I thought it was a very shortsighted man looking at an ultra-widescreen monitor! 

(I assume it is actually a light which helps you see the smallest of dents on panels?)


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## screenman (20 Aug 2013)

ColinJ said:


> I thought it was a very shortsighted man looking at an ultra-widescreen monitor!
> 
> (I assume it is actually a light which helps you see the smallest of dents on panels?)


 
10 out of 10, it also helps you see the tool moving under the metal, which is the part most people fail to get.

Make it good under the light and it will be fixed.


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## perplexed (20 Aug 2013)

ColinJ said:


> When mobiles first came in, my manager told me to take a company phone home one weekend, to keep it with me at all times, and to remain sober, close to a computer with an internet connection, and ready for work from 08:00 - 00:00, in case our technicians out on a site visit needed support. I asked how much standby money was being offered. The figure that he had in mind was 'zilch', but I would be paid for any work I actually did, in multiples of 1/4 hour, rounded down! I politely declined ... We had a lengthy discussion about it. He couldn't see that me giving up my plans for the entire weekend was worthy of a payment. In the end, I squeezed £20-odd out of him.


 
I used to work at a shop years ago. We worked roughly a 50 hour week for crap pay, with Sunday our only full day off.

When mobiles came in, the owner/director thought it'd be a great idea to offer an 'emergency' delivery service on a Sunday for our customers. Well, his customers really...

His brilliant idea was that me, or one of the other staff, would take 'the mobile' home. If a customer rang, we were expected to drive to the shop, open up, load the van, boot up the computer, raise an invoice, deliver said goods up to 40 miles, return, lock up, set alarms, drive home.

And possibly repeat if someone else phoned. He was utterly, genuinely astounded when we suggested we might be paid to do this. On our one day off per week. He really expected to us to not only be on call for nothing, but if work came in, to do it for nothing, and not being able to go anywhere on your own time.

He eventually offered £10.

Pi$$ off...


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## akb (20 Aug 2013)

An old school 'friend' (he wasnt actually a friend, just someone I knew and was in all intents and purposes a bit of a nob!) asked me to shoot their wedding over facebook. Conversation went something like this:

Him: Hello....blah blah school related blah blah. I am getting married on 32nd Juluary 2014, could you shoot my wedding for me please?
Me: Yeah not a problem. Whats your budget?
Him: £100 plus a crate of beer.
Me: (A bit tongue in cheek as I wanted a reaction and wasnt that bothered by his request) Ok, add to that a night with your soon to be wife and we have a deal. (She also went to same school and used to be a looker...!

Didnt hear from him from that point. Not sure why.

Cheek of it. £4000 worth of kit, insurance, experience and costs of various photography classes, plus the hours of preperation before the wedding and editing time after the wedding. For £100. From someone who has spent ££££ on dresses, cakes, venue to name a few. Some people have no idea.


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## pplpilot (20 Aug 2013)

akb said:


> ....
> Cheek of it. £4000 worth of kit, insurance, experience and costs of various photography classes, plus the hours of preperation before the wedding and editing time after the wedding. For £100. From someone who has spent ££££ on dresses, cakes, venue to name a few. Some people have no idea.


 

Exactly the same reason I keep quiet about my photography. I used to do the odd wedding as second shooter and eventually went on my own. Never again. shame because I used to love shooting weddings. And from people that would think nothing of paying a £10 hire charge for chair covers x100.


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## akb (20 Aug 2013)

pplpilot said:


> Exactly the same reason I keep quiet about my photography. I used to do the odd wedding as second shooter and eventually went on my own. Never again. shame because I used to love shooting weddings. And from people that would think nothing of paying a £10 hire charge for chair covers x100.


 
Dont get me wrong, I love shooting weddings. I also love getting paid though! My charges are very reasonable.
These are small instances where people try to haggle. I had a lady try and haggle me down once for a wedding, as she had spent too much on the ice sculptures....! Nice to know where her priorities are! Frozen water which will be gone in a few days or photographic memories which last a lifetime.


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## pplpilot (20 Aug 2013)

akb said:


> Dont get me wrong, I love shooting weddings. I also love getting paid though! My charges are very reasonable.
> These are small instances where people try to haggle. I had a lady try and haggle me down once for a wedding, as she had spent too much on the ice sculptures....! Nice to know where her priorities are! Frozen water which will be gone in a few days or photographic memories which last a lifetime.


 

It's the 'friends' that expect it for next to nothing that irritate me. You always end up in the same conversational loop -

"yea but my uncle John has a nice camera that takes great photos, it cant be that involved..."

Whatever.


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## Dan B (20 Aug 2013)

ColinJ said:


> thought it would take about 3 days and said that I wanted £300.


Obviously I don't know the specifics of your skillset, but I reckon this undercuts the going rate for contract programming by a factor of three or more.


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## ColinJ (20 Aug 2013)

Dan B said:


> Obviously I don't know the specifics of your skillset, but I reckon this undercuts the going rate for contract programming by a factor of three or more.


It wasn't a big job. I said 3 days because I knew if I'd said I thought it would take 1 or 2 but it ended up taking 3 or more (as these things often do) then I would have another argument on my hands. I guaranteed to do the work for £300, no matter how long it took. In the end, it took just under 2 days. I thought that I might want to work there again in the future so I had decided not to take advantage of the situation to maximise my short term gain. 

I know people who were making £50k-70k p.a. freelance about 13 years ago, but I never had the stomach for it. It sounded very stressful, involved long periods away from home, and an ability to lie through one's teeth about past experience to get the work. I remember one guy many years before that, blagging a job on the basis of 3 years of (totally fictitious) experience in C. He spent his first couple of months with a copy of Kernighan and Ritchie balanced on his knees under his desk!


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## KneesUp (28 Aug 2013)

0-markymark-0 said:


> I get similar often at work.
> 
> "£3 to print off a few bw sheets of paper? Must cost you 5p"
> 
> ...


 
I get sort of the opposite - I work in an independent shop and we often get people coming in asking if we will sell the jewellery/cards/whatever that they make. The pitch is normally "I sell them at craft fairs for £10 each, but I could sell them to you for £8" or whatever. They almost always look put out when I point out that the shop costs rather a lot to run with rent, rates, utilities, insurance, wages, tax and VAT and that we'd need to buy them at nearer to £3.50 to make it worthwhile. They seem to think that us paying the running costs of the shop and having enough left over to eat it excessive profiteering. 

Unless you've seen the costs, I don't think many people truly understand them!


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## Gravity Aided (29 Aug 2013)

Quite true. And the fact the fact that you employ yourself and others on what profits there are is commendable.


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## MarkF (29 Aug 2013)

I charge £60 per sq/m inc materials and labour (usually), and I tell the customer this in the initial conversation. So, armed with a sq/m price and knowing the size of their structure, the cost is pretty obvious, or at least you would think it was........................


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## CopperCyclist (29 Aug 2013)

A very reasonable price for the parts - let alone the work!

I'd have been tempted to say "Tell you what, go look up on the Internet the price of a new wheel, a new cassette, new cables and a new chain, as you may be able to do it yourself with YouTubes guidance. However, once you've found the price of te parts alone, come back to me and I'll do it for £90"


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## Cyclopathic (29 Aug 2013)

CopperCyclist said:


> A very reasonable price for the parts - let alone the work!
> 
> I'd have been tempted to say "Tell you what, go look up on the Internet the price of a new wheel, a new cassette, new cables and a new chain, as you may be able to do it yourself with YouTubes guidance. However, once you've found the price of te parts alone, come back to me and I'll do it for £90"


 
To be fair to them I used the existing cassette. I have found pricing jobs to be one of the most difficult things about being a freelance mechanic. I am definitely at the low end at the moment but will be upping things a bit from now on. Not dramatically. I am going to aim at being about mid range compared to other independent bike shops. I like to think that I give a good service and that I am honest with customers about what they need. After that I do the jobs to the jobs as if it were my bike and give advice accordingly.

I'm quite optimistic about things and although I get one or two customers who don't really appreciate the price of things I get more who are happy to come to me and are glad of having somewhere a bit closer to where they live. This post was really a frustrated rant at the time to get it off my chest rather than having to be rude to the customers. They are actually a nice couple and good people but even good people can p##s one off sometimes.


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## markharry66 (29 Aug 2013)

up your prices if you are cheap people are inclined to treat you that way and you also get the wrong sort of customer


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## on the road (29 Aug 2013)

markharry66 said:


> up your prices if you are cheap people are inclined to treat you that way and you also get the wrong sort of customer


That's a good way to go out of business, if you up your prices then people will just go to someone who's cheaper and they'll get all your business.


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## Cuchilo (29 Aug 2013)

on the road said:


> That's a good way to go out of business, if you up your prices then people will just go to someone who's cheaper and they'll get all your business.


 
Very true if you are just starting out and have no customer base to spread the word about your services but if you don't want that kind of work then your prices will need to be higher as the costs are . If youre willing to repair old gear and get it working for a bit then you are going to get that market . If you only replace parts and up spec things you get into that market .


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## User6179 (29 Aug 2013)

MarkF said:


> I charge £60 per sq/m inc materials and labour (usually), and I tell the customer this in the initial conversation. So, armed with a sq/m price and knowing the size of their structure, the cost is pretty obvious, or at least you would think it was........................


 
I hope your not a window cleaner


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## SpokeyDokey (29 Aug 2013)

on the road said:


> That's a good way to go out of business, if you up your prices then people will just go to someone who's cheaper and they'll get all your business.


 

People don't buy on price alone.


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## I like Skol (29 Aug 2013)

SpokeyDokey said:


> People don't buy on price alone.


 But, it is a BIG part of the decision!


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## screenman (30 Aug 2013)

on the road said:


> That's a good way to go out of business, if you up your prices then people will just go to someone who's cheaper and they'll get all your business.


 
So wrong on this, I am one of the more expensive in my trade and see off competition all the time.

Buy cheap buy twice.

Nobody ever regrets buying quality.


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## screenman (30 Aug 2013)

I like Skol said:


> But, it is a BIG part of the decision!


 
Yes mainly for cheap skates who have no idea of quality.


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## youngoldbloke (30 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> So wrong on this, I am one of the more expensive in my trade and see off competition all the time.
> 
> *Buy cheap buy twice.*
> 
> Nobody ever regrets buying quality.


 Off post a little but .... See this SO often - not always true. If you can pay less for the SAME service or SAME product, you are just being sensible. I look for the best deal. I don't have unlimited funds, and if I can buy the same for less I will.


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## I like Skol (30 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> Yes mainly for cheap skates who have no idea of quality.


 
Not at all. It's about value for money. Only a fool will pay more when they can get the same product and/or service for less. There are many factors to consider but price is the big one as most of us do not have unlimited funds.

Obviously I do not expect to get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Ford Fiesta but if I can buy my Rolls from the dealer across town for £10k less than the dealer on my doorstep and they both provide the same customer care and warranty services then clearly there would have to be some other major reason to spend the extra £10k

The other side of the argument is that some products or services are just so shockingly bad that any price, no matter how low, is too much!

For Screenman to say that anyone who considers value for money are cheapskates is just wrong and smacks of snobbishness and conspicuous consumption of the worst kind ("Look at me! I have expensive things at high prices that you couldn't possibly afford or appreciate.")


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## Cyclopathic (30 Aug 2013)

In conclusion I think I will up prices a bit over a period of time. At the moment I'm at the bottom end of lbs prices but would be more comfortable in the middle. I'm worth it and I do a good job. I'm honest with my customers and don't try to sell them stuff I know they don't need. (However sometimes people will insist on buying stuff they don't need. I always try and offer my opinion in a polite and non patronising way but if they want something then they want it).


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## on the road (30 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> So wrong on this, I am one of the more expensive in my trade and see off competition all the time.
> 
> Buy cheap buy twice.
> 
> Nobody ever regrets buying quality.


This is what's so wrong with a lot of bike shops, they up their prices trying to scare off those looking for bargains and only insist on selling high end brands at inflated prices. While they might do good business in the short term but they're only selling to a tiny section of the market so they're not going to make a lot of money, I've seen a lot of bike shops close down because they're prices were too high.

As for me, I'm not one those who buy the lowest brand components, I buy the next highest components like Ultegra but I'm still looking for a bargain, that usually means buying on-line. Yes the LBS might have to put their prices up to cover rates, rents and wages but that's their problem not mine, my only concern is getting the same top brand component at the cheapest price. If they go out of business then who do you blame, the LBS for upping their prices or the customer for buying the same top brand elsewhere for less?


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## screenman (30 Aug 2013)

So at least you guys are getting my point, people do not buy on price alone.

I would also imagine some of you may never have had total control of running a business.


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## Pale Rider (30 Aug 2013)

Cyclopathic said:


> In conclusion I think I will up prices a bit over a period of time. At the moment I'm at the bottom end of lbs prices.


 
Probably best to up the prices to your chosen level sooner rather than later.

If you gain a reputation as cheap, it will be harder to up prices in future.


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## Cyclopathic (30 Aug 2013)

Pale Rider said:


> Probably best to up the prices to your chosen level sooner rather than later.
> 
> If you gain a reputation as cheap, it will be harder to up prices in future.


 
Fair point.


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## Pale Rider (30 Aug 2013)

You also need to sound confident when quoting, if you sound a bit unsure about the price the customer will take it as a weakness and be more inclined to try to knock you down.

A printed outline tariff may assist, you can't cover every job but it would give the customer an idea of what financial ballpark they are in.

In other words, a mechanic who charges, say, £30 for a small service is clearly not going to do a full bike rebuild for £35.


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## SpokeyDokey (30 Aug 2013)

I like Skol said:


> But, it is a BIG part of the decision!


 

Well, I think the decision to decide to buy is the biggie. How much you finally pay based on perception of vfm, credibility & quality of the service provider, after sales support etc etc is neither here nor there and for me price doesn't come into it unless comparing absolute like for likes.


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## SpokeyDokey (30 Aug 2013)

screenman said:


> So wrong on this, *I am one of the more expensive in my trade and see off competition* all the time.
> 
> Buy cheap buy twice.
> 
> Nobody ever regrets buying quality.


 


Our business is far and away the most expensive of its type locally and we are far and away the busiest too with really high levels of repeat business.

We often quote way ahead of competitor businesses who quote cheap and still secure the deal based on our reputation for quality and service.


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## shouldbeinbed (30 Aug 2013)

MarkF said:


> I charge £60 per sq/m inc materials and labour (usually), and I tell the customer this in the initial conversation. So, armed with a sq/m price and knowing the size of their structure, the cost is pretty obvious, or at least you would think it was........................


Liposuction?


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## Cuchilo (30 Aug 2013)

If youre running a business people buy into you aswell as what you are selling/ service . Ive been in loads of bike shops since I bought my low end giant road bike and have varied opinions on them . I now shop at giant because I know I will be welcomed to piss about for as long as I want looking at stuff rather than get shoved out the door by a grumpy nobber .
Sometimes I spend a few quid sometimes I just ask questions and spend nothing . If / when I upgrade my road bike and buy new I will be shopping with my local giant shop rather than the other local bike shops .
So back to the point of what YOU want to do when running a business . What do YOU want to be doing ?
A background on yourself may help us that run a business rather than those that say keep prices low


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## crazyjoe101 (31 Aug 2013)

I appreciate the time it takes as I do most of the work on my bike myself, I can't afford otherwise. It's a steep learning curve but I save a lot and for the £80 or so I've spent plus countless hours of learning and working my bike feels totally different. The guys at the LBS are always happy to help me out, even though they're not getting the money for the fitting etc. It annoys me how people will buy something cheap which will never stay in one piece and can often end up spending more on repairs than a good bike would cost in the first place. Or worse still let a nice bike fall into disrepair


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## Primal Scream (1 Sep 2013)

I went to a 2 million plus house in Highgate London to price for an extension to a CCTV system and intruder alarm system, the price was reasonable. He then argued about the price for 15 minutes, I explained that if I did not make a 15% margin (the price he wanted to pay was at a 7% margin) I would not be paid my commission, he then said ".don't care about your commission to which I replied.

"If I don't get my commission I don't give a flying fark about your security systems" he signed the paperwork without another word.


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## Cuchilo (1 Sep 2013)

Primal Scream said:


> I went to a 2 million plus house in Highgate London to price for an extension to a CCTV system and intruder alarm system, the price was reasonable. He then argued about the price for 15 minutes, I explained that if I did not make a 15% margin (the price he wanted to pay was at a 7% margin) I would not be paid my commission, he then said ".don't care about your commission to which I replied.
> 
> "If I don't get my commission I don't give a flying f*** about your security systems" he signed the paperwork without another word.


 
Ive just had a customer with the same type of property . Decided he was going to rearrange my price by £800 in his favour and tell me my time frame to do the job . I laughed , said ok and hung the phone up . He called a week later and asked when I was fitting the work  
His wife is now in charge


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## sabian92 (2 Sep 2013)

cd365 said:


> You should work in I.T., you can spend hours trying of get a virus off a PC to save their data that they haven't backed up but don't want to lose it, and then they offer you a four pack of beer or a cheap bottle of supermarket wine. I've stopped doing favours unless it is close family and friend and I price myself high for others so they will not bother me again.



I get this all the time because people say "Oh, Andrew does computers, go and ask him!"

I have no issue sorting things out within my own home because I live there rent free with people who aren't my parents so I do everything I can to help until I can afford to pay them - I've said in the past I don't mind a quick job for free but it gets to the point where people take the mickey and I have spent literally DAYS sorting stuff out for people after they've said "Oh, it'll only take 10 minutes" for me to actually find the root of the problem and most of the time it's just infested with spyware and viruses.

I tell them it's going to involve backing up their data and reformatting their PC (I did this for my fiancee's friend and her mum) and it took me 4 days, between eating, sleeping, finishing off my IT BTEC, revising for my English and Maths GCSE resits... you get the picture. I ended up giving it back half finished because they were moaning it was taking too long and now they moan it doesn't work because I didn't install half of the drivers. Guess what - not my problem.

If somebody does something for free and when they're already busy, don't moan at them. I should start charging for this crap.


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## Saluki (2 Sep 2013)

CarlP said:


> I am occiasionly asked when I quote a price, lets say £150.00 for example "is that your best price?" My reply is always, " no I have a better price, it's £175.00. Whatever I quote it's always £25.00 more than the original quote if they ask for a better price.
> 
> Shuts them up quick.


I get a lot of that, but at lower prices. I say £30, they say £25 so I say £32 etc. I tell that time is money and they are wasting my time and costing me money.


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## Saluki (2 Sep 2013)

screenman said:


> So at least you guys are getting my point, people do not buy on price alone.
> 
> I would also imagine some of you may never have had total control of running a business.


People don't buy on price alone, or at least not twice.

I had a customer who paid a groomer £15 to groom their English Cocker Spaniel. The same customer then paid me £35 to sort it all out. £35 is my going rate and she had initially contacted me and decided that I was too expensive. I am at the higher end of local groomers to be fair. That Cocker was a right old mess. It was sh1t and it wasn't even sugared.

I tell customers repeatedly, A cheap groom is never good and a good groom is never cheap.


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## chriss2.0 (2 Sep 2013)

my sympathy's mate, i will often do free favors for people in my close by doing some basic maintenance and repairs on their bikes.
and they still look at me like im deranged when i say that i need some money for a new part, like a pedal or a break lever or something, only £5. 
people often want something for nothing


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## crazyjoe101 (2 Sep 2013)

Yeah, I recently spent 4 hours showing my friend how to completely clean and service all the important and relatively simple parts on his bike, whilst actually doing it at the same time. I was happy to do this as we could then go for bike rides. All the time his (much) younger brother was moaning that I wasn't fixing his bike... That's fair enough for a younger brother who feels left out I suppose.
My friend and I were out a week later when he told me his Dad was interested in me doing the same on my friend's brothers' bikes which have minor problems with brakes, punctures and rust etc. I asked if it was for free and he said yes, I politely informed him that I wasn't going to spend the best part of two days fixing the family's bikes for nothing; it gets boring and I only have so much time, degreaser and TF2...


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## screenman (2 Sep 2013)

People who do jobs for free are devaluing their trade, so if that is you do not blame anyone else when your chosen skill offers little monetary reward.


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## Cycleops (2 Sep 2013)

I think we are getting away from the point here. Cycling has always had the stigma of a poor mans hobby or means of transport. If that same person with a mini went to BMW garage and were quoted at what must now be about £120 an hour for labour plus parts they couldn't get their visa card out quick enough.


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## screenman (3 Sep 2013)

Most people think they can repair a bike themselves, much the same as they can clean their car do their own decorating etc, as such prices for these skills are always low. In truth most people cannot do those things anywhere near as well as a professional should, note the word should.


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## lukesdad (3 Sep 2013)

screenman said:


> Most people think they can repair a bike themselves, much the same as they can clean their car do their own decorating etc, as such prices for these skills are always low. In truth most people cannot do those things anywhere near as well as a professional should, note the word should.


 Do you mean repair or do you mean maintain ? There is a big difference.


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## screenman (3 Sep 2013)

Much the same thing surely, adjusting a slack gear cable is not much different from replacing one. Can you make your point a bit clearer as I am not getting it.


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## lukesdad (3 Sep 2013)

maintain ,adjust replace. repair, fix something thats broke ( cracked frame for example )


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## Andrew_Culture (3 Sep 2013)

cd365 said:


> You should work in I.T., you can spend hours trying of get a virus off a PC to save their data that they haven't backed up but don't want to lose it, and then they offer you a four pack of beer or a cheap bottle of supermarket wine. I've stopped doing favours unless it is close family and friend and I price myself high for others so they will not bother me again.



Part of the reason I quit IT. I remember one business client dropping round a dead laptop to my house at 8.30pm with almost no notice wanting it repaired ready for pickup at 8am the next morning. I told him it would take two or three hours, to which his reply was 'well I hope it's not chargeable.' My wife shut herself in the kitchen to stop herself chucking said client out on his arse. His reasoning was that because I installed MS Office on the same laptop six months previously so the catastrophic hardware failure must be my fault. 

I'd never say never, but I would take a lot of convincing to fix another PC.


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## screenman (3 Sep 2013)

lukesdad said:


> maintain ,adjust replace. repair, fix something thats broke ( cracked frame for example )



I think that is a bit extreme, very few Cytec mechanics could or would fix a cracked frame, however most competent DIY people could change components from one frame to another.


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## Linford (3 Sep 2013)

on the road said:


> I can see where you're coming from, but I can also understand their point of view. I'm a cheapskate myself, I refuse to pay labour charges so that's why I do my own repairs as much as possible, both on my bike and even on my car, I reckon I've saved a few hundreds of pounds worth of labour over the years both on the bike and on the car.



Businesses cannot survive by charging mates rates all the time. I put in a lot more hours than what I do when just making the stuff I sell.

You have to look at the costs of the whole business when settingthe rate, and not just the time spinning the spanners...I do as much works as possible also on bikes cars and motorbike, but appreciate there are many who don't have the nouseor inclination to get their hands dirty.


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## markharry66 (3 Sep 2013)

Bottom line dont make money then your not a business your a hobby. Sell yourself short bet plagued by low paying clients.
Set yourself up for a fall and watch it tumble. Of course it doesnt always work out that way as people always under cut you.


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## glasgowcyclist (3 Sep 2013)

Saluki said:


> As someone was saying before about fixing computers etc for friends. I used to be a Network Engineer back in the late 90s and I got the whole 'will you fix my PC thing' and I would spend hours sorting out their little network and PCs for a 'Ta, see you soon then'. Now I tell them I'm a luddite and have forgotten most of it, which is true


 
I used to get that too, folk would say, "Go see GC, he's right into computers.."
Nobody would ever dream of saying, "Go see Dave, he's right into plumbing..." and expect to get a boiler sorted for two beers and a curry.

GC


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## Robson3022 (3 Sep 2013)

I buy and sell second had furniture as well as doing house clearances. Its unbelivable how many people I have offended when offering them £30 for there suite they paid £1500 for 5 years ealier. Every time I get it for £30 as when I break it down-

There is a ceeling with standard second hand furniture. A mint leather 3 piece in a desireable colour will do maximum of £300-£350. Ill work from the top..


£300-£30 purchase
£270-£20 in fuel picking the suite up and I offer free delivery within 20 miles
£250- £50 in wages for staff to pick up and deliver suite if theres only that job on
£200- £40 in wages for someone to be in the shop while I am out
So I'm left with £160 to pay rent, rates, insurance, maintainance on the van, Tax for the van, Income tax then finaly a wage.


Thats on a £300 suite I get for £30 I possibly do this once every 2 months. The rest of the time I'm usually paying £30 for suites I sell between £100-£200


Its the same for removals I charge £70 a load if I only get one load I make nothing for myself as the driver gets £35 the van lad gets £20 that leaves £15 for fuel! The amount of people who complain about me charging £70 is crazy!!!


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## rebelpeter (3 Sep 2013)

Cyclopathic said:


> Someone wanted me to do some work on their bike but it was obvious that they thought I was ripping them off. It was a nice example of a Raleigh Pioneer. It needed a new back wheel (cassette type) New rear brake blocks (Annoying calliper peg type) The front was jammed and needed freeing and the gears needed indexing. These were what I considered essential to getting it rideable. I also advised that they should have all cables replaced as they were rusty in places and have a new chain fitted.
> When I told them it would be about £80 for this (and that was being kind I thought) they looked at one another (for it was a couple) and mumbled to each other about how it was supposed to have been a cheap bike to get to work on.
> I asked how much they paid for the bike. £25 was the answer and they even seemed ****ed off at that because of the back wheel situation. Even though I tried to explain to them that a Raleigh Pioneer in good condition having been serviced and supplied with a brand new back wheel for a little over £100 was quite good really they still seemed to think that it was too much.
> 
> ...


 
well you know what some people are like mostly they have the money but are
scared to spend it i do repairs too, i find the normal working man in a normal
car spends on repairs no worries, but when they drive up with a bmw etc
they are soooooooooo careful with their money, hardly worth having it if you dont spend some, my mate
use to say - you dont have any money until you spend some of it-

rp


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## oldroadman (3 Sep 2013)

Self employed need to make an absolute minimum £30/hour to cover costs, pension, insurance, tools and replacements, premises, holidays, tax, everything. Less than that you are a charity. I'll bet the same people don't blink at lawyer/accountant and garage bills. Compare, try working out what the nice new shiny car will cost to service - try £100 - £200 per hour labour alone. High? Yes, but they have to send technicians on manufacturer courses, maintain the tools and software, premises, all the massive costs of doing business in a country where HMG are paperwork mad.
I agree with the above. Give them a proper quote, stick with it, and if they decide not to play then fine. The hassle is not worth it. They can always go to H...ds!


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## SpokeyDokey (3 Sep 2013)

Robson3022 said:


> I buy and sell second had furniture as well as doing house clearances. Its unbelivable how many people I have offended when offering them £30 for there suite they paid £1500 for 5 years ealier. Every time I get it for £30 as when I break it down-
> 
> There is a ceeling with standard second hand furniture. A mint leather 3 piece in a desireable colour will do maximum of £300-£350. Ill work from the top..
> 
> ...



You forgot depreciation on the van too.


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## sazzaa (4 Sep 2013)

I'd rather pay decent money for someone who's an expert than get a bike "fixed" for free by a fool! I don't think any of these bargain/coupon type tv programmes help matters either, they just make everyone think they can have expensive stuff for a cheap price... If you can't really afford it then you shouldn't be buying it. But on the other hand, a lot of companies (Kwik Fit spring to mind) rip you off and make you feel like a fool for even considering paying them! It's hard to find good quality tradesmen that's actually worth paying full whack for.


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