# Joy of riding a Sportive Road Bike



## Arrowfoot (26 Dec 2014)

When I first began riding drop bars, had this funny feeling that it was not all that right, at least for me. But everyone was doing it and it was built for speed and it did chew up the miles. Even with straight bars, great gears, it never felt good when you actually wanted speed as the flat back was not going to happen and neither were the arms going down more than little lower.

Not sure how the sportive came about but a tweak to angle, the shorter bar and some fangdangled suspension and anti-vibration (not sure if all these do what they supposed to do) a whole new world came about. You did the usual speed demon thing when you had to, but you also raised your head to see the world around you when you saw something striking catch your eye. You could also ride across some interesting terrain without rattling your bones. And you cover lot more miles without your posture taking a more permanent curve.

And its all in the geometry.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

So is a good bike fit.


----------



## Arrowfoot (26 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> So is a good bike fit.



Its more like horses for causes. Nothing to do with bike fit. You can't use road bike for cross country not matter how much of bike fitting you avail yourself to.


----------



## Rob3rt (26 Dec 2014)

Nor can you use a sportive bike (essentially a road bike with a tall head tube) for cross country so what is your point?


----------



## Arrowfoot (26 Dec 2014)

Rob3rt said:


> Nor can you use a sportive bike (essentially a road bike with a tall head tube) for cross country so what is your point?


Nobody suggested that you can.


----------



## midliferider (26 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> When I first began riding drop bars, had this funny feeling that it was not all that right, at least for me. But everyone was doing it and it was built for speed and it did chew up the miles. Even with straight bars, great gears, it never felt good when you actually wanted speed as the flat back was not going to happen and neither were the arms going down more than little lower.
> 
> Not sure how the sportive came about but a tweak to angle, the shorter bar and some fangdangled suspension and anti-vibration (not sure if all these do what they supposed to do) a whole new world came about. You did the usual speed demon thing when you had to, but you also raised your head to see the world around you when you saw something striking catch your eye. You could also ride across some interesting terrain without rattling your bones. And you cover lot more miles without your posture taking a more permanent curve.
> 
> And its all in the geometry.



Interesting, what is your bike? make and model please?


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> Its more like horses for causes. Nothing to do with bike fit. You can't use road bike for cross country not matter how much of bike fitting you avail yourself to.



Surely a bike fit is all about geometry. Getting the angles right to fit the individuals body shape and flexibility.


----------



## raleighnut (26 Dec 2014)

Raleigh and Carlton (amongst others) got the handling geometry right years ago, then road bikes got to be more and more aggressive/twitchy so now they have a new class of bikes they can sell.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

raleighnut said:


> Raleigh and Carlton (amongst others) got the handling geometry right years ago, then road bikes got to be more and more aggressive/twitchy so now they have a new class of bikes they can sell.



Do you think that is the only reason?


----------



## vickster (26 Dec 2014)

midliferider said:


> Interesting, what is your bike? make and model please?


Did he buy one already?

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/what-is-a-good-carbon-sportive.171154/


----------



## raleighnut (26 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> Do you think that is the only reason?


I think a lot of people got a bit fed up with twitchy handling 'racing' cycles and wanted something comfortable but still quick.


----------



## Drago (26 Dec 2014)

A bike fit is about extracting money from customers.


----------



## vickster (26 Dec 2014)

It's a good thing for those of us with little knowledge, time and patience


----------



## Arrowfoot (26 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> A bike fit is about extracting money from customers.



Bike fit maybe the way to go to get the best out of the bike type that you have and certainly for someone having any form of recurrent niggles.


----------



## Drago (26 Dec 2014)

Which bike fit is scientifically correct, seeing as most of the major systems contradict their rivals often in some quite fundamental ways? It's the cycling equivalent of homeopathy.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> A bike fit is about extracting money from customers.



Did you have a bad one?

For me it was certainly not money wasted.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> Which bike fit is scientifically correct, seeing as most of the major systems contradict their rivals often in some quite fundamental ways? It's the cycling equivalent of homeopathy.



Of course some homeopathy works, you just have to find the right one.


----------



## Arrowfoot (26 Dec 2014)

midliferider said:


> Interesting, what is your bike? make and model please?



A few race bikes, but first sportive was Synapse. Looking for another sportive, leaning towards Roubaix. Someone suggested a sportive from Planet X. Might consider a customised sportive from Ribble but concerned about the level of service mentioned in the forum.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

I think often it is not the bike but the body that is the problem. A lot of people are too inflexible and have no stretching regimes.


----------



## Drago (26 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> Of course some homeopathy works, you just have to find the right one.



Which bikefit system then?


----------



## nickyboy (26 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> A bike fit is about extracting money from customers.







.....this is gonna be good


----------



## Banjo (26 Dec 2014)

Depends on how many hours you intend riding in one day.

A bike thjats comfortable and efficient for 30 miles may be an instrument of torture after 130 miles not allways though. choice of a road bike is a very individual thing where there are many more factors than just your body measurements.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> Which bikefit system then?



I thought that you might answer my question first, out of politeness that is.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

Banjo said:


> Depends on how many hours you intend riding in one day.
> 
> A bike thjats comfortable and efficient for 30 miles may be an instrument of torture after 130 miles not allways though. choice of a road bike is a very individual thing where there are many more factors than just your body measurements.



In a proper bike fit your flexibility should be measured as well as body one's.


----------



## Banjo (26 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> In a proper bike fit your flexibility should be measured as well as body one's.


Bike shops should take more responsibility IMHO .Loads of people out there riding poorly fitted bikes .Usual thing seems to be bikes too small and racing geometrty for pootling round country lanes etc.

Few people are going to buy a £500 bike then spend £100 extra on a proffesional bike fit.


----------



## screenman (26 Dec 2014)

Banjo said:


> Bike shops should take more responsibility IMHO .Loads of people out there riding poorly fitted bikes .Usual thing seems to be bikes too small and racing geometrty for pootling round country lanes etc.



But that is what some like me want, there are so many different aspects of cycling, the manufacturer gives us choices.

I do agree though a lot of shops can give poor service, and a lot of companies selling bikes never even see their customers.


----------



## Banjo (26 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> But that is what some like me want, there are so many different aspects of cycling, the manufacturer gives us choices.
> 
> I do agree though a lot of shops can give poor service, and a lot of companies selling bikes never even see their customers.


 
Thats exactly my point , An awful lot of bike shops will sell you anything not taking into account what you intend using it for. Of course if you buy on line then its down to you to do your homework.


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> When I first began riding drop bars, had this funny feeling that it was not all that right, at least for me...
> Not sure how the sportive came about...
> And its all in the geometry.


There's nothing new or magical about 'sportive' bikes, it's just a question of buying a bike you can achieve a good fit with and is suitable for the type of riding you want to use it for. And no it isn't just all about geometry, it's also about frame material, wheels, tyres, bars, stem, saddle, crank length and not least how you set it all up.


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> I think often it is not the bike but the body that is the problem. A lot of people are too inflexible and have no stretching regimes.





Flick of the Elbow said:


> There's nothing new or magical about 'sportive' bikes, it's just a question of buying a bike you can achieve a good fit with and is suitable for the type of riding you want to use it for. And no it isn't just all about geometry, it's also about frame material, wheels, tyres, bars, stem, saddle, crank length and not least how you set it all up.



What in your opinion are "sportive" suitable for and what brand and model are stand-outs?


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

For a lot of people a sportive is a race.


----------



## jefmcg (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> Of course some homeopathy works, you just have to find the right one.


That's the placebo effect - which is a real and valuable thing. Now I think of it, that's probably a huge factor with bike fits, too.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

jefmcg said:


> That's the placebo effect - which is a real and valuable thing. Now I think of it, that's probably a huge factor with bike fits, too.



Where did you have yours done?


----------



## jefmcg (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> Where did you have yours done?


My comment was about homeopathy, not bike fit.

For the record, I haven't used either

Edit: I don't feel I would have benefited from a bike fit; my problems on long rides is eating and sleeping. I'm ok on the bike


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

How do you know something does not work until you have tried it? That is one of the problems when talking about things like this, a lot of the negatives come from people with no real life experiences of the subject.


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> What in your opinion are "sportive" suitable for and what brand and model are stand-outs?


Don't start with the bike, start with budget, what you want to use it for and how it fits. If it happens that the bike that meets those criteria is marketed as a 'sportive' model then so be it.
On the subject of professional fitting, I imagine the quality varies as much as that of homeopathy, and some riders would benefit and some not. I've ridden for over 30 years without one but a few years ago got measured up on a rig for my first ever made to measure frame and the resulting bike, a tandem in fact, is a delight to ride.


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> Don't start with the bike, start with budget, what you want to use it for and how it fits. If it happens that the bike that meets those criteria is marketed as a 'sportive' model then so be it.
> On the subject of professional fitting, I imagine the quality varies as much as that of homeopathy, and some riders would benefit and some not. I've ridden for over 30 years without one but a few years ago got measured up on a rig for my first ever made to measure frame and the resulting bike, a tandem in fact, is a delight to ride.



Maybe I will repeat my question. "What in your opinion are "sportive" suitable for and what brand and model are stand-outs?"


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> Maybe I will repeat my question. "What in your opinion are "sportive" suitable for and what brand and model are stand-outs?"


Sportive bikes as I understand them are racing bikes but with a more relaxed fit and a more forgiving ride, suitable for those looking for a sporty ride but not too sporty. I'm also conscious that many traditional racing bikes would also provide the same.


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (27 Dec 2014)

I might had that the only sportive of note that I've ever done was 21 years ago, 160km around the Alps, the Galibier, Telegraph, Croix de Fer. No such thing as a 'sportive' bike in those days, I rode it on my Mercian 531 steel racing bike, suited perfectly apart from the gearing, the CdF was a bit of a struggle on 39x25.


----------



## cyberknight (27 Dec 2014)

No emotes as on a tablet.
Gets coffee and cake and awaits the crossfire from either side.
I think that for some a bike fit can be beneficial but you can make most bikes do what you want with tweaking of fit but I'm open to constructive discussion and reasoning.


----------



## JoeyB (27 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> A bike fit is about extracting money from customers.





Drago said:


> Which bike fit is scientifically correct, seeing as most of the major systems contradict their rivals often in some quite fundamental ways? It's the cycling equivalent of homeopathy.



Just because plenty of companies have jumped on the bike fit bandwagon, it doesn't mean that there aren't companies doing it correctly. The chap I use is a legend and his method is certainly not just a vehicle for extracting money


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

The bike fit I use was done by Adrian Timmis. I am sure most of us into the sporting side of cycling will know of him.


----------



## cyberknight (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> The bike fit I use was done by Adrian Timmis. I am sure most of us into the sporting side of cycling will know of him.


I used to to tai chi,I think the teacher was his son and I have ridden past the shop a few times but I have not had a fit as £200 is too steep for me and I emailed regarding a fit without foot beds and never heard anything.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

For me it was money well spent and the foot beds I really like.


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> Maybe I will repeat my question. "What in your opinion are "sportive" suitable for and what brand and model are stand-outs?"


How far are you planning on riding, not that it really matters? You need a bike that is comfortable for you and appeals to your aesthetic sense. Pros ride 100s of miles on race bikes, people do sportives on mountain bikes, BMXs and everything else

I doubt I could ride much more than 100 miles in a day but that's nothing to do with the bike. I have two at least that would be quite capable of going further with someone else riding them!

What's wrong with the bikes that you have currently?


----------



## Levo-Lon (27 Dec 2014)

Just to go a smidge off topic ,sort of..I was a decent golfer until I had lessons.lessons ruined my game totally..
now ive spent a fair bit of time using guides and info on forums to get my road bike to fit so I dont hurt.

its still not comfy ,neck ,shoulders ,arms ,wrists etc all ache.but I start hurting after an hour so its comfy for 15miles then by 25 im in pain.
im temted to try a £150 bike fit but im thinking it may have the same result as the golf lessons.
changing what feels right to me ?
How many riders find it to be benificial? As I do more mtb than road maybe its more time on the road bike I need.
anyone tried greenwheel cycles peterborough for fitting?


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

Is the bike the right size? With the correct length stem and correct width bars? A bike fit could tell you all of these are not right, and thus you'll need to spend more on components, even a new bike if you don't think getting used to riding and developing more core strength will help!

Where did you buy the bike from? First port of call, I'd go back to them and ask them to confirm the bike is the right size

I've had untold issues caused by the wrong sized bikes in the past!


----------



## gbb (27 Dec 2014)

raleighnut said:


> I think a lot of people got a bit fed up with twitchy handling 'racing' cycles and wanted something comfortable but still quick.


 While this is true, newer bikes and designs do give you something older designs couldnt (as a generalisation). 
My 1970/80s 531 Clubman is supremely comfortable, smooth, as fast as new bikes...but noticeably smooth. like velvet. 
Why ?...its a relatively long stretched out bike with, compared to modern bikes, a huge fork rake. That gives you a very smooth ride, like having suspension. Modern bikes forks are much straighter (certainly older steel ones) which transmitted all the bumps straight up to you. Now we have carbon forks, we're getting somewhere near the comfort old raked forks.
But, the Clubman is (IMO) a tourer. Commute on it in traffic, its bloomin awful, like steering a battleship. Thats the rake again, plus's and minus's. You don't get that on modern 'racers'.

There's always a compromise, you gain in one hand, lose something in the other. We're probably at the nearly perfect position of having Sportive bikes now, taller headtube for comfort, without sacrificing much aerodynamics, carbon forks that are as comfortable as old forks, but with the added bonus of instant response (which some people call twitchiness...but that is just something you have to get through and get used to, after a while...its perfectly ok)

The worst time (IMO) was forks you got in the 90s, i remember my Raleigh Chimera, relatively budget bike, dependable, strong, but it had chro mo forks, straight as a die, you felt every lump and bump you rode over. It was like a bone shaker (but i still loved owning it).


----------



## Levo-Lon (27 Dec 2014)

vickster said:


> Is the bike the right size? With the correct length stem and correct width bars? A bike fit could tell you all of these are not right, and thus you'll need to spend more on components, even a new bike if you don't think getting used to riding and developing more core strength will help!
> 
> Where did you buy the bike from? First port of call, I'd go back to them and ask them to confirm the bike is the right size
> 
> I've had untold issues caused by the wrong sized bikes in the past!



im happy with frame size and seat pedle position.
ive tried different stems and bar postions..im 5'8 with a 54 frame sensa sl pro..
Bike is just 12mth old from merlins so im on my own with that.


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

You need to ride more, perhaps wear better gloves. What width are the bars? Have you flipped the stem for a more upright position?

You could try a bike fit but if you're satisfied with the bike fit and set up, I can't see what it'll give you

Or if an MTBer, it may be that you never really get used to the road bike position especially if you've ever had back or shoulder injuries


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

G


meta lon said:


> im happy with frame size and seat pedle position.
> ive tried different stems and bar postions..im 5'8 with a 54 frame sensa sl pro..
> Bike is just 12mth old from merlins so im on my own with that.



Surely you maybe changing something that does not feel right.

Do you have a stretching regime, if not try it.

A couple of pictures of you on it may help.


----------



## raleighnut (27 Dec 2014)

gbb said:


> While this is true, newer bikes and designs do give you something older designs couldnt (as a generalisation).
> My 1970/80s 531 Clubman is supremely comfortable, smooth, as fast as new bikes...but noticeably smooth. like velvet.
> Why ?...its a relatively long stretched out bike with, compared to modern bikes, a huge fork rake. That gives you a very smooth ride, like having suspension. Modern bikes forks are much straighter (certainly older steel ones) which transmitted all the bumps straight up to you. Now we have carbon forks, we're getting somewhere near the comfort old raked forks.
> But, the Clubman is (IMO) a tourer. Commute on it in traffic, its bloomin awful, like steering a battleship. Thats the rake again, plus's and minus's. You don't get that on modern 'racers'.
> ...


1 of my bikes is an ultra short TT frame ( its a 653 Reynolds tubeset handbuilt but no-one can tell me who built it as there are no decals other than the Reynolds ones and no serial No on the frame) but that is still very comfortable and stable although I've never ridden it for much over an hour/25 miles at once.( I had the idea of joining a club and competing in 10 mile TTs now I fit into the 'over 50' class but my accident has scuppered that idea for now)
This bike has curved forks which according to some advice I've had should be in 531c as is the rear triangle with the main frame in 753 if they are correct in what a 653 tubeset is made up from, others have said that it is 753 that is heat-treated differently, but it still rides very comfortably so I don't think its the length of the wheelbase that makes a difference. (Its so short that the rear wheel does not come out with the tyre inflated and its got 25mm tyres fitted)
Nice bike though (its definitely my 'poshest') and the only reason I've not gone any further on it is due to its total inability to carry any 'luggage' and the fact that I've got others with racks etc on much more suited to longer journeys sitting in the sheds.


----------



## jefmcg (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> How do you know something does not work until you have tried it? That is one of the problems when talking about things like this, a lot of the negatives come from people with no real life experiences of the subject.


Anecdote is not data. Trying something proves nothing. If something is 95% effective, there's a reasonable chance you'll be unlucky and have it not work for you.

And placebo effect is about 30%. That is, 30% of people will improve with any treatment, even one that can't possibly be any use (classically, sugar pills). So if you have something, and you get improvement, it's quite likely the placebo effect.

You can only learn is something works by multiple cases, preferably done in placebo controlled, double-blind experiments. And the result of that totally negates a single subjective experience.

(18 moths ago I had a real problem with my elbow on rides over 100km. It would lock up straight so I couldn't bend it without spending several minutes working on it with my other hand. I seriously considered getting a bike fit, but decided not to as it was too close to a very long ride so didn't want to risk a new position without time to get used to it and also because there was not much in google about elbow pain with cycling so it seemed likely my problems were outside the scope of most bike fits. Anyway, 2 days into my long ride I found the problem had suddenly gone. If I had gone to a bike fit, I'd be claiming it worked brilliantly, yet it would have been just a coincidence)


----------



## gbb (27 Dec 2014)

raleighnut said:


> 1 of my bikes is an ultra short TT frame ( its a 653 Reynolds tubeset handbuilt but no-one can tell me who built it as there are no decals other than the Reynolds ones and no serial No on the frame) but that is still very comfortable and stable although I've never ridden it for much over an hour/25 miles at once.( I had the idea of joining a club and competing in 10 mile TTs now I fit into the 'over 50' class but my accident has scuppered that idea for now)
> This bike has curved forks which according to some advice I've had should be in 531c as is the rear triangle with the main frame in 753 if they are correct in what a 653 tubeset is made up from, others have said that it is 753 that is heat-treated differently, but it still rides very comfortably so I don't think its the length of the wheelbase that makes a difference. (Its so short that the rear wheel does not come out with the tyre inflated and its got 25mm tyres fitted)
> Nice bike though (its definitely my 'poshest') and the only reason I've not gone any further on it is due to its total inability to carry any 'luggage' and the fact that I've got others with racks etc on much more suited to longer journeys sitting in the sheds.


The length of the wheelbase may not be relevent TBF, I concede that, but it is a supremely comfortable bike on the straight. I used to wonder if being a longer wheelbase (I'm only talking marginally of course), the top tube is naturally longer and therefor a bit more forgiving, less rigid.
The curved forks do appear to make a huge difference though, I think they act like dampers.


----------



## Banjo (27 Dec 2014)

meta lon said:


> im happy with frame size and seat pedle position.
> ive tried different stems and bar postions..im 5'8 with a 54 frame sensa sl pro..
> Bike is just 12mth old from merlins so im on my own with that.


 Pain in arms wrist and elbows will be a result of too much weight being supported through your hands onto the bars.

Try moving the nose of your saddle up just a couple of millimeters ,see if any improvement. Tilting it too far could create problems with your undercarriage so make very small adjustments then ride to confirm.


----------



## cyberknight (27 Dec 2014)

Banjo said:


> Pain in arms wrist and elbows will be a result of too much weight being supported through your hands onto the bars.
> 
> Try moving the nose of your saddle up just a couple of millimeters ,see if any improvement. Tilting it too far could create problems with your undercarriage so make very small adjustments then ride to confirm.


+1
if i move my saddle forward 5 mm to KOPS i get pins and needles in my hands so i feel more comfortable just behind it .


----------



## raleighnut (27 Dec 2014)

gbb said:


> The length of the wheelbase may not be relevent TBF, I concede that, but it is a supremely comfortable bike on the straight. I used to wonder if being a longer wheelbase (I'm only talking marginally of course), the top tube is naturally longer and therefor a bit more forgiving, less rigid.
> The curved forks do appear to make a huge difference though, I think they act like dampers.


Yep, I never understood the design reasons for straight bladed forks. You can certainly see the front wheel bouncing up and down but transmitting little or no vibration through to the bars and gel palmed gloves deal with that as my preference is for unpadded cloth bar tape as all my bikes are 'retro' in style despite running modern transmission on a couple of them (10 speed Campagnolo on the TT and 8/9 Dura-ace on the Worksop 531 Raleigh) and I personally dislike the appearance of 'fat' bar tape.


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (27 Dec 2014)

My modern Croix de Fer has straight bladed forks, so too a Rourke I had built in the 00's. Both have lovely rides, smoothing out the road surface just the same as the curved forks on my Mercian. Clearly there are other factors at work besides whether the forks are curved or not.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

I used to get pins and needles in the hands on longer rides, lowering the bars and stretching out with a longer stem cured that.


----------



## outlash (27 Dec 2014)

Can someone help me out here? My CAAD8 isn't marketed as a sportive, race, TT, CX or adventure bike. What the hell do I use it for?


Tony.


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

Riding on the road, or indeed off the road if you fancy it  I wouldn't take it swimming though 

The Cannondale marketing folks say you are:

*Rider Profile:*
Aspiring racers, fast club riders and anyone else looking for a high-performance alternative to carbon.

http://www.cannondale.com/uk_gb/2015/bikes/road/elite-road/caad8/caad8-6-tiagra


----------



## jefmcg (27 Dec 2014)

outlash said:


> Can someone help me out here? My CAAD8 isn't marketed as a sportive, race, TT, CX or adventure bike. What the hell do I use it for?
> 
> 
> Tony.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

Jef, I am speaking from real life experience. How do you without having a bike fit know there is no room for improvement? Sure your arm problem got better, but what caused it. 

I am not saying everybody needs a bike fit, but if comfort is a problem, or you might like to improve speed then one can help.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

outlash said:


> Can someone help me out here? My CAAD8 isn't marketed as a sportive, race, TT, CX or adventure bike. What the hell do I use it for?
> 
> 
> Tony.



Audax if it fits nicely.


----------



## potsy (27 Dec 2014)

vickster said:


> *Rider Profile:*
> Aspiring racers, fast club riders and anyone else looking for a high-performance alternative to carbon.


I think I best take mine back then


----------



## bpsmith (27 Dec 2014)

jefmcg said:


> ...If something is 95% effective, there's a reasonable chance you'll be unlucky and have it not work for you.
> 
> And placebo effect is about 30%. That is, 30% of people will improve with any treatment, even one that can't possibly be any use (classically, sugar pills). So if you have something, and you get improvement, it's quite likely the placebo effect.
> 
> (18 moths ago I had a real problem with my elbow on rides over 100km. It would lock up straight so I couldn't bend it without spending several minutes working on it with my other hand. I seriously considered getting a bike fit, but decided not to as it was too close to a very long ride so didn't want to risk a new position without time to get used to it and also because there was not much in google about elbow pain with cycling so it seemed likely my problems were outside the scope of most bike fits. Anyway, 2 days into my long ride I found the problem had suddenly gone. If I had gone to a bike fit, I'd be claiming it worked brilliantly, yet it would have been just a coincidence)



Firstly, 89.47527% of stats are made on the spot. 

Secondly, jokes aside and using your figures only, you don't seem to have grasped how stats work? 5% chance is hardly termed reasonable, when 95% is saying it will work. There's a chance, no question, but you suggest it's likely when the fact is that it's 19 times more likely to work than not. If it's a serious operation we were talking about, you would take those odds!

Quite likely at 30% is a fair term, but you're two and a third as likely not to experience the placebo effect.

The elbow thing is interesting, as any bike fitter would agree that you should not cycle with locked elbows for 100km. There's no surprise that you experienced this. The next ride, you probably cycled for longer with more bend at the elbow. A proper bike fit would resolve this and take the chance out of it.

As far as bike fits go in general, it depends on how switched on you are in setting up your bike up to start with. If you just ride it like set up in the shop without them seeing you or as a rough guide stood next to them, then you are considerably less likely to have the optimum fit than if the fitted you properly.

If you look online at the things that you need to adjust to get close to a good fit, and work at this over time, then you are considerably less likely to see such big gains as the guy in the first example. Stands to reason really?

What I find amusing, is people saying bike fits are pointless, when they have actually done many of the adjustments themselves already! That's irony for you at its best! 

If you have adjusted your bike and still riding with pain, and nothing has changed to you physically or the bike, then it's not set up right, or the wrong size, or you're simply not doing enough riding to get used to the desired position.


----------



## Drago (27 Dec 2014)

Indeed, you can do it yourself and trouser the cost of the snake oil sellers...

http://www.bikepro.com.au/diy-bike-fitting


----------



## bpsmith (27 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> Indeed, you can do it yourself and trouser the cost of the snake oil sellers...
> 
> http://www.bikepro.com.au/diy-bike-fitting


Totally spot on. That's the point really. Do it yourself if get it done professionally? No right answer.

It depends on cost, desire either way, time, expertise, whether you have a friend to help, or any of another 20 reasons.

Professional bike fits are not a waste of money, so those who say they are simply don't appreciate the position others are in!

Bike fits can be done yourself, so anyone who says they can't again done appreciate the position others are in!

The definite answer is Bike Fits are an absolute necessity, but who does them is the question. 

Great link though @Drago! A bit long for me this very minute, but will make good bedtime reading later. I am currently reading:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bike-Fit-Optimise-performance-avoidance/dp/1408190303

(Other stockists are available.)

I have the Kindle Edition on my iPad, as cheaper than the Apple version. 

It's a very good read and about half way through. I am going to read it throughout and then go back over my bikes to see how they compare. I have tested a 100mm stem, instead of 110mm, from my other bike and felt a lot better on main bike, but want to check the theory before ordering a replacement.


----------



## Drago (27 Dec 2014)

Get it done professionally you're no better off. The only reason I had mine done was because the buyer had paid and had to use it by a certain date, then promptly went and broke his pelvis.

The problem with professional "systems" is the contradictory stance they take in many key areas. Which is correct? Are any correct?

Comfort is the paramount factor in every adjustment and measurement. It doesn't matter how mechanically efficient your position is with regards to your leg stroke if you can't fill your lungs or look forward without your neck going click.

Even the most deliberately obtuse among us know when we're uncomfortable and are capable of identifying which bit of our body is uncomfortable, and it.doesn't take a bike fit.specialist to tell us that something.needs a.twiddle to correct it.


----------



## Hip Priest (27 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> The problem with professional "systems" is the contradictory stance they take in many key areas. Which is correct? Are any correct?



That's true of many aspects of cycling. One expert will tell you HR zones are everything, whilst another will tell you that a HR monitor is just an unnecessary distraction on the bike. One expert will tell you to 'carb load' the night before a long ride, whereas another will tell you it does more harm than good.

All you can do is find what works for you, and spend your money accordingly.


----------



## Levo-Lon (27 Dec 2014)

Good info thread...I'll keep tweeking and do more go through the pain barrier riding...


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

meta lon said:


> Good info thread...I'll keep tweeking and do more go through the pain barrier riding...



I tweaked and worked with coaches, physio etc. For 40 years, I consider the fit I had was well worth the investment.

Can I ask what sort of cycling you do?


----------



## bpsmith (27 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> Get it done professionally you're no better off. The only reason I had mine done was because the buyer had paid and had to use it by a certain date, then promptly went and broke his pelvis.
> 
> The problem with professional "systems" is the contradictory stance they take in many key areas. Which is correct? Are any correct?
> 
> ...


You have made the mistake of assuming that comfort is the key motivator for Everyone, when the fact is that this is misguided. It may be the goal as many, but some people want Power, or Aerodynamics, etc. Not everyone wants to do slow comfortable long miles. Some want short and fast rides. Bike fit varies dramatically.

You can still do this yourself, but not everyone wants to and has the ability. That's the point. Doing it yourself can be equally as wrong depending on which "system" you follow, remember.


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> Sportive bikes as I understand them are racing bikes but with a more relaxed fit and a more forgiving ride, suitable for those looking for a sporty ride but not too sporty. I'm also conscious that many traditional racing bikes would also provide the same.



Thanks. I think over time, they have become or becoming separate genres. The race bike is also becoming more aggressive in design to be more aerodynamic pushing the gap even further. It will be interesting how they are evolve over time. 25cm tyres are now the standard.


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

I always wondered about Chris Froome and his unnatural gait when cycling. I sure there must have been attempts to correct it.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> I always wondered about Chris Froome and his unnatural gait when cycling. I sure there must have been attempts to correct it.



What is unusual about it?


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

vickster said:


> What's wrong with the bikes that you have currently?



Actually they are fine. Just got that twitch to add one more. Also keen to do 2 day rides.


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> 25cm tyres are now the standard.



If that's the case, where are all the coloured 25mm tyres?


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> Actually they are fine. Just got that twitch to add one more. Also keen to do 2 day rides.


Get a custom built steel or titanium?


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

vickster said:


> Get a custom built steel or titanium?



Don't tempt me. Keen to try out a Ti.


----------



## vickster (27 Dec 2014)

Arrowfoot said:


> Don't tempt me. Keen to try out a Ti.


Go for it, e.g. http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/another-new-bike-thread.171234/


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (27 Dec 2014)

Go for a custom build and you won't have to worry about genres, you simply tell the builder what you want it for.


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> Go for a custom build and you won't have to worry about genres, you simply tell the builder what you want it for.



And he should measure you up.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (27 Dec 2014)

vickster said:


> If that's the case, where are all the coloured 25mm tyres?


Easy! The colour dye makes them shrink to 23mm when they're wet.

Anyhow, I had a bike fit once. Not one of those computer and lasers jobs, just an experienced cyclist working from years of experience - and the guys wheeling bikes in and out of his shop weren't new to bicycles in any way. 

The process was very much going through many years of riding in half an hour. The jig was constantly being adjusted in the way I've sporadically done with my bikes over the years. So, undeniably quicker than hurting for miles and then sorting the discomfort out, but for me it was reinforcing because, as I went through adjustments similar to the ones I had made, I grew more confident in my own ability to find the right kind of adjustment for my own body. In all bar one aspect, namely saddle height, I agreed entirely with his adjustments. When the bike arrived, the only final adjustments I made was to nudge the saddle back up in fractional increments.


----------



## Arrowfoot (27 Dec 2014)

vickster said:


> Go for it, e.g. http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/another-new-bike-thread.171234/



Thanks, great thread. I am amazed that he got it done for less than £3k. Lovely bike. 

ps. I noticed that you seem to connect people with the right equipment. Saw it in a quite a few threads. Help appreciated.


----------



## Levo-Lon (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> I tweaked and worked with coaches, physio etc. For 40 years, I consider the fit I had was well worth the investment.
> 
> Can I ask what sort of cycling you do?



fun cycling I guess, ie 20 odd mile xc stuff and 20 + road bike loops .
im planning on doing more road this year, but summer eves are xc with son in law and weekends are mtb and xc, all road biking tends to be on my todd but my neighbour is a roadie so im going to do a few longer rides with him and maybe try a sportif ? Ive got a few local freinds who do the big miles but I simply cant hack that..


----------



## screenman (27 Dec 2014)

Did you know that just down the road from you there is a guy that quite a few people use who will do a fit for £45


----------



## Levo-Lon (27 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> Did you know that just down the road from you there is a guy that quite a few people use who will do a fit for £45



no I didn't ,but I may know of him..


----------



## Levo-Lon (29 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> Indeed, you can do it yourself and trouser the cost of the snake oil sellers...
> 
> http://www.bikepro.com.au/diy-bike-fitting



Thanks for this link Drago..I changed the stem to an 80mm from the 100mm,set in upward setting ,inline seatpost from layback and bars slightly up from level. The guy in the link stressed Comfort before everything, so that's what ive set it up for. I may move my cleats back a little but ill see how it goes.
better than putting flat bars on and the riding postion is going to be less stressful


----------



## screenman (29 Dec 2014)

Cycle Tec Heckington


----------



## Levo-Lon (29 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> Cycle Tec Heckington



cheers...its quite a way from me but thank you for taking the time.


----------



## screenman (29 Dec 2014)

meta lon said:


> cheers...its quite a way from me but thank you for taking the time.



You are welcome. I do a lot of miles each week so my idea of local is often different from how others see them


----------



## NorvernRob (29 Dec 2014)

Drago said:


> Get it done professionally you're no better off. The only reason I had mine done was because the buyer had paid and had to use it by a certain date, then promptly went and broke his pelvis.
> 
> The problem with professional "systems" is the contradictory stance they take in many key areas. Which is correct? Are any correct?
> 
> ...



Look at the various systems as tools. The key to a proper fit lies with whoever is using those tools.

Give me some power tools, show me how to use them (or I'll learn from youtube videos) and I'll knock something together. But give an experienced professional those tools, and they will produce something better than I can.

My friend went for a retul fit, he was put in the position the system came up with and his left leg was totally extended due to leg length discrepancies. The fitter ended up abandoning the fit (no charge to my friend) because he didn't know what to do beyond what the system said. I'm not suggesting the system is poor, but a good fit obviously requires more than a simple by-the-numbers adjustment.

That's why I've got a fit booked with Adrian Timmis in a couple of weeks - I don't even know what system he uses but he has so many satisfied customers I'm happy I've made the right choice. I chose the fitter not the system.

I spend so much on cycling that another £200 for a potential improvement has to be money well spent. Otherwise I'd always be wondering 'what if I could be better with a professional fit'.

Btw comparing bike fitting with homeopathy is downright wrong, homeopathy IS snake oil and cannot possibly work because all it is is massively diluted solutions. Bike fits can and do work for everyone, whether you do it yourself or pay someone else.


----------



## cyberknight (29 Dec 2014)

Interesting thoughts on saddle height 'I have always found jimlangleys bike fit to be easy and right .


----------



## raleighnut (29 Dec 2014)

NorvernRob said:


> Look at the various systems as tools. The key to a proper fit lies with whoever is using those tools.
> 
> Give me some power tools, show me how to use them (or I'll learn from youtube videos) and I'll knock something together. But give an experienced professional those tools, and they will produce something better than I can.
> 
> ...


I've come across a guy (we sat and nattered for a while at a pub in Derbyshire, both out touring) who had different length crankarms to get around the problem of one leg shorter than the other. He'd broken his leg as a young lad and it hadn't set right so he used a 172.5 on one side and a 165 on the other (I only noticed cos they were different brands and I just thought he'd damaged one and fitted another arm as a spare/bodge til he told me)


----------



## cyberknight (29 Dec 2014)

raleighnut said:


> I've come across a guy (we sat and nattered for a while at a pub in Derbyshire, both out touring) who had different length crankarms to get around the problem of one leg shorter than the other. He'd broken his leg as a young lad and it hadn't set right so he used a 172.5 on one side and a 165 on the other (I only noticed cos they were different brands and I just thought he'd damaged one and fitted another arm as a spare/bodge til he told me)


Would foot beds only in one shoe work the same for smaller discrepancies?


----------



## oldroadman (29 Dec 2014)

NorvernRob said:


> Look at the various systems as tools. The key to a proper fit lies with whoever is using those tools.
> 
> Give me some power tools, show me how to use them (or I'll learn from youtube videos) and I'll knock something together. But give an experienced professional those tools, and they will produce something better than I can.
> 
> ...



The difference in the bike fit - someone who actually knows what he is doing. As an ex-pro of high repute the fit will done properly, and what a system can't always do is the tiny tweaks that someone who has knowledge can add. It does seem that some "bike fitters" are just that, do the training to operate the machine and anything outside parameters is a problem too great for the experience. As ever, it's not the tools, but the way they are used that counts.


----------



## screenman (29 Dec 2014)

3 of us from this family have been to Adrian all happy with the outcome.


----------



## Levo-Lon (29 Dec 2014)

screenman said:


> 3 of us from this family have been to Adrian all happy with the outcome.



was this in the political section?


----------



## screenman (29 Dec 2014)

meta lon said:


> was this in the political section?



Sorry?


----------

