# So who's too blame ?



## biggs682 (18 Jul 2021)

Hamilton or Verstappen


----------



## biggs682 (18 Jul 2021)

I am blaming Hamilton


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (18 Jul 2021)

Hamilton, he was P2 and P1 ended up eating the kitty litter


----------



## yello (18 Jul 2021)

Greg Chappell


----------



## ClichéGuevara (18 Jul 2021)

Hamilton tried for a gap that wasn't there, and under-steered to cause the collision. Verstappen had the line. 

Should be points penalty to Hamilton.


----------



## biggs682 (18 Jul 2021)

10 second penalty is not much


----------



## ClichéGuevara (18 Jul 2021)

biggs682 said:


> 10 second penalty is not much



I agree. He had no call to try and squeeze in where he did.


----------



## Milkfloat (18 Jul 2021)

10 secs penalty, he got very, very lucky.


----------



## biggs682 (18 Jul 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> 10 secs penalty, he got very, very lucky.


Certainly is


----------



## CanucksTraveller (18 Jul 2021)

I don't care for F1 really but I'm flicking through several sports this afternoon and I'm still dying with laughter at catching Croft interviewing Otmar Szafnauer about the accident but losing audio for a second... 
Otmar: "Can you hear me?"
Crofty: "Yes, I can hear you Clem Fandango". 

Cue a confused Otmar. 

🤣


----------



## Beebo (18 Jul 2021)

Hamilton was almost level and Max knew he was there.
Max turned in when he knew it was a risk.
Max is a very aggressive driver, Hamilton isn’t a dirty driver.
I think 10 secs is fair. It’s a racing incident which both drivers could have easily avoided.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (18 Jul 2021)

The 10 second penalty shows who the judges thought was at fault.


----------



## PeteXXX (18 Jul 2021)

I was trying to get to Swindon, via Oxford, down the A43 and it was closed due to the Grand Prix and I had to divert via Buckingham!

Who's to blame? 🤔


----------



## Salty seadog (18 Jul 2021)

PeteXXX said:


> I was trying to get to Swindon, via Oxford, down the A43 and it was closed due to the Grand Prix and I had to divert via Buckingham!
> 
> Who's to blame? 🤔



If it's like my neck of the woods (witch you know well) it's the Open golf championships. Possibly one of the worst venues to get 40 odd thousands of people to down very narrow local lanes through a tiny little town.


----------



## Drago (18 Jul 2021)

Hamilton.

At the point of impact Max was substantially ahead and pulling forward at a decent rate as he had the line, so the rules clearly defer to him in that scenario without any qualification. In that regard its quite clear cut.

It almost looks like Hamilton was deliberately steering into him, but I don't think thats the case. I suspect he was understeering, on the wrong, dirty line, with a late entry and apex so inevitably heading for an early exit, and was working the wheel a little to try and compensate.

One irksome thing is the level of punishment. While I'm sure it was not deliverate, it was nevertheless a serious impact for Verstappen. Aside from losing the championship leader the opportunity to win any points he has written off a rival teams car. I doubt much will be salvageable from that, and at a time of budget caps thats a big issue for teams as it then compromises the budget they have left for in season development, something which Red Bull do a lot of. 

That being the case, the penalty should reflect the effect it had on the innocent party. He should have been disqualified, the only punishment that is commensurate with the effects of the crime. 

He got off pretty lightly, all things considered.


----------



## BrumJim (18 Jul 2021)

Can't disagree with you, and those that know more are coming to the same conclusion.

But Hamilton was level with Max just before the corner, so Max knew he was there.

I'm wrong, aren't I?


----------



## carpiste (18 Jul 2021)

Racing incident  Credit to Hamilton chasing down LeClerk to pip him to the win. Great drive


----------



## classic33 (18 Jul 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Can't disagree with you, and those that know more are coming to the same conclusion.
> 
> But Hamilton was level with Max just before the corner, so Max knew he was there.
> 
> I'm wrong, aren't I?


Onboard with Max, you can see he turned the steering wheel left just before impact was made.

51G collision with the tyre wall!


----------



## Beebo (18 Jul 2021)

I bet Max is wishing he yealded and came second. 
Hamilton could easily have come off worse and been out with 0 points.
I don’t think either wanted to crash, unlike Schumacher who took out rivals and was a dirty driver.


----------



## derrick (18 Jul 2021)

Racing incident. It was going to happen sooner or later.


----------



## Reynard (18 Jul 2021)

They were both at fault. Racing incident IMHO.

If it had been a one off tag, then yes, I'd say Hamilton. But Lewis and Max were banging wheels for most of the opening lap until that point. Neither was going to back down, so it was always going to end in tears.

For once, I'd say the stewards probably got it right - i.e. they took into account the whole lap to that point, not just the contact at Copse.

Lewis negating the penalty out on track shows us *why* he's a 7-time world champion.

Max has learnt a harsh lesson that sometimes, it's worth backing down and keeping your powder dry for another day.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (18 Jul 2021)

Hamilton got a 10 second penalty for causing a collision that put another car off the track and into a wall at 160mph.
Tsunoda got a 10 second penalty for crossing the white line in the pit lane during a previous race.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (18 Jul 2021)

Chris Froome


----------



## Reynard (18 Jul 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Hamilton got a 10 second penalty for causing a collision that put another car off the track and into a wall at 160mph.
> Tsunoda got a 10 second penalty for crossing the white line in the pit lane during a previous race.



Motor racing safety is my background, more specifically F1 crash testing and composite materials. First off, the tyre wall did its job, as did the crash structures on the side of the car. Both performed as they should have done, and for that, we are all thankful. But what I will say is this:

A decade, two decades ago, neither driver would have tried that at Copse, because they knew that if they got it wrong, they *would* be hurt. When I started watching motor racing, the cars were still made from aluminium honeycomb, and then, that likely would have been a fatal incident, with the chassis ended up being pretzeled around the driver. If anything, too much risk has been removed from the sport - drivers seem to be immune to the fact that sometimes the sport *does* bite back. I think Max learned that today.

Regarding Tsunoda's penalty in Austria - he had done that multiple times during the meeting. The reason that white line is there, is to separate slow cars leaving the pits from those running at full speed on the racing line. If there is no separation, there is the chance of the car leaving the pits being speared in a side impact. If the nose of the car travelling at high speed goes into the side of the cockpit of a slower car, there is a high chance of serious injury or even a fatality.


----------



## Cerdic (18 Jul 2021)

Racing incident in my book.

I'm not keen on the whole 'penalties' thing. No driver in their right mind would want to deliberately touch another car. The risk of damaging their own is too great. So what is being penalised is an error of judgement. (Yes, I know, there is the occasional Prost/Senna incident. But in general...)

Given that overtaking in F1 is ridiculously difficult, highly competitive racing drivers are sometimes going to get it wrong. 

People complain that there isn't enough overtaking in F1 and then want drivers punished for making a mistake in the attempt! Well make your mind up, do you want to watch motor RACING, or just some sort of speed trial...?

Good post by Reynard! I suspect that I have been watching motor racing for as long as him! Does your username hint at a connection to the much esteemed manufacturer of racing cars, by any chance?


----------



## Beebo (18 Jul 2021)

I don’t think Christian Horner behaved very well. 
He seemed to be going a bit OTT with his hysterics. No one was injured and the outcome of a crash shouldn’t have a bearing on the potential penalty anyway, unless it’s deliberately reckless.


----------



## derrick (18 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> I don’t think Christian Horner behaved very well.
> He seemed to be going a bit OTT with his hysterics. No one was injured and the outcome of a crash shouldn’t have a bearing on the potential penalty anyway, unless it’s deliberately reckless.


Did make himself look a bit silly.


----------



## classic33 (18 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> I don’t think Christian Horner behaved very well.
> He seemed to be going a bit OTT with his hysterics. No one was injured and the outcome of a crash shouldn’t have a bearing on the potential penalty anyway, unless it’s deliberately reckless.


Toto Wolfe was just as bad, during the race, "asking" why his e-mail hadn't been read. Then taking a copy of it to Massi(Race Director) whilst they were still clearing Verstappen's car.

Verstappen is in hospital as a result of the crash.


----------



## steven1988 (18 Jul 2021)

I thought it was a racing incident and up until Norris got a penalty a few weeks ago it would have been. 

Let them race! I hope the penalty doesn't put Lewis off going for a gap again it could ruin what is turning out to be a quality title fight


----------



## Reynard (18 Jul 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Good post by Reynard! I suspect that I have been watching motor racing for as long as him! Does your username hint at a connection to the much esteemed manufacturer of racing cars, by any chance?



Her, actually... 

Yes, I was involved in developing full-chassis stress analysis modelling for their ChampCar project back in the late-ish 90s as part of my MEng.

N.B. 1982 British Grand Prix at Brands is where it all started for me, and *THAT* overtake at Paddock


----------



## Cerdic (18 Jul 2021)

Reynard said:


> Her, actually...
> 
> Yes, I was involved in developing full-chassis stress analysis modelling for their ChampCar project back in the late-ish 90s as part of my MEng.
> 
> N.B. 1982 British Grand Prix at Brands is where it all started for me, and *THAT* overtake at Paddock



Cool! My first GP in the flesh, as it were, was Brands in 1983, I think. Would that have been the European Grand Prix that year rather than the British?


----------



## Reynard (18 Jul 2021)

Cerdic said:


> Cool! My first GP in the flesh, as it were, was Brands in 1983, I think. Would that have been the European Grand Prix that year rather than the British?



Yes it was. The penultimate race of the season, that year.


----------



## Jenkins (19 Jul 2021)

Has Brexit been blamed yet?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (19 Jul 2021)

incidentally - https://9gag.com/gag/a5EvRpL


----------



## dave r (19 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> Hamilton.
> 
> At the point of impact Max was substantially ahead and pulling forward at a decent rate as he had the line, so the rules clearly defer to him in that scenario without any qualification. In that regard its quite clear cut.
> 
> ...



Yes, I would agree with that, Max has got Hamilton spooked a bit, and Hamilton was trying too hard to get past Max in the first lap as he didn't think he could do it later in the race, he went in too hot and caused the contact.


----------



## dave r (19 Jul 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> incidentally - https://9gag.com/gag/a5EvRpL



Yes, I've seen that, fair play.


----------



## matticus (19 Jul 2021)

BrumJim said:


> Can't disagree with you, and those that know more are coming to the same conclusion.
> 
> But Hamilton was level with Max just before the corner, so Max knew he was there.
> 
> I'm wrong, aren't I?


"level" - well very nearly. A few years back there was a drivers/stewards agreement that you needed to be "more than half-way" up the inside of another car. He certainly managed that:





(from here: 
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE05USSQMfk
which may get taken down any minute)
It looked to me like HAM then _backed-out_ when he was Max wasn't, so at impact the 'Bull was well ahead.

So - much as it pains me - racing incident seems fair; but a penalty is understandable, as at such high speeds the consequences could be immense, and many drivers would not have created that risk, preferring caution


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> I don’t think Christian Horner behaved very well.
> He seemed to be going a bit OTT with his hysterics. No one was injured and the outcome of a crash shouldn’t have a bearing on the potential penalty anyway, unless it’s deliberately reckless.


Chris Horner?

Blimey he gets about a bit. First he wins the Vuelta. Then he marries Ginger Spice. Now he's running an F1 team. Is there no limit to his talents?


----------



## matticus (19 Jul 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Chris Horner?
> 
> Blimey he gets about a bit. First he wins the Vuelta. Then he marries Ginger Spice. Now he's running an F1 team. Is there no limit to his talents?


I will resist jokes about the Vuelta winner's age, and Ginger Spice


----------



## FishFright (19 Jul 2021)

Hamilton , that line was never on. But he's had near immunity for pushing people of the outside of corners for years, just ask Rosberg.


----------



## FishFright (19 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> I bet Max is wishing he yealded and came second.
> Hamilton could easily have come off worse and been out with 0 points.
> I don’t think either wanted to crash, unlike Schumacher who took out rivals and was a dirty driver.



More like Senna and Prost than Schumacher.


----------



## T4tomo (19 Jul 2021)

100% Max's fault. Lewis did the old jink outside and back inside trick, Max bought it and should have stayed on his outside line - fecking hooligan.

the whole thing is a storm in tea-cup , see Schumacher vs Hill if you want to see reckless driving and deliberately taking out an opponent.


----------



## FishFright (19 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> I don’t think Christian Horner behaved very well.
> He seemed to be going a bit OTT with his hysterics. No one was injured and the outcome of a crash shouldn’t have a bearing on the potential penalty anyway, unless it’s deliberately reckless.



51 G impact , let that sink in.


----------



## Jody (19 Jul 2021)

Both of them knew what they were doing. Max was trying to chop him and Lewis was standing his ground. If you look at the replay they were pretty much side by side but Ham lifted slightly before turn in.

They bumped at T3, bumped a couple of times down to T6 and then it all came to a head at T9.

Racing incident.


----------



## mustang1 (19 Jul 2021)

It looks like Verstappen was trying to move into a space that was currently occupied by Hamilton.

I don't think Hamilton should even have got the 10 second penalty


----------



## FishFright (19 Jul 2021)

mustang1 said:


> It looks like Verstappen was trying to move into a space that was currently occupied by Hamilton.
> 
> I don't think Hamilton should even have got the 10 second penalty



Hamilton understeered because he would never have made that line stick , Verstappen was in the way.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (19 Jul 2021)

Who is to blame was answered by the stewards within 30 minutes - Hamilton. 

What's debatable is the level of punishment. As was said at the time by Coulthard and Webber, a 10 second drive through seemed appropriate. The 10 second penalty he was given was effectively no punishment as it didn't hinder him in the slightest.

If it was just a "racing incident", the stewards would have said so and no penalty applied.


----------



## Reynard (19 Jul 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Who is to blame was answered by the stewards within 30 minutes - Hamilton.
> 
> What's debatable is the level of punishment. As was said at the time by Coulthard and Webber, a 10 second drive through seemed appropriate. The 10 second penalty he was given was effectively no punishment as it didn't hinder him in the slightest.
> 
> If it was just a "racing incident", the stewards would have said so and no penalty applied.



Yes, but Coulthard and Webber were both part of the Red Bull set-up, and still drive the cars on promotional days. They can hardly be considered impartial.

The stewards, love them or loathe them, have to be impartial.

And, as ever, there are always more versions of the same incident than there are drivers involved. Part of the headache over the current rules is that you can have as many damn diagrams in the sporting regs as you like, it will always be, to some degree, subjective.


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (19 Jul 2021)

Talking of which, here's Toto's diagram -


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Jul 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Who is to blame was answered by the stewards within 30 minutes - Hamilton.
> 
> What's debatable is the level of punishment. As was said at the time by Coulthard and Webber, a 10 second drive through seemed appropriate. The 10 second penalty he was given was effectively no punishment as it didn't hinder him in the slightest.
> 
> If it was just a "racing incident", the stewards would have said so and no penalty applied.


I think it's a deal more complex than that.

Has Chandhok's walk-through been linked on thread yet? CLC had the best seat in the house and called it a racing incident, as did Alonso.

There was fault on both sides - each could have avoided the incident, but didn't. Max is accustomed to people, Hamilton included, backing out of contact and avoiding an accident. This time it didn't happen, because Max miscalculated and steered towards Hamilton, who had, or was in the process of backing out, having been alongside. 

Linky:
https://www.skysports.com/watch/vid...skypad-analysis-verstappen-hamilton-collision


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Jul 2021)

FishFright said:


> 51 G impact , let that sink in.


It's a lot, but eminently survivable if protected. The 'record' g survived in motorsport is 4 times that.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (19 Jul 2021)

Max's fault

Look at his steering wheel just before contact - he was steering right for the corner - then realised Lewis was there and straightened - then steered right harder!
In my opinion Max has always driven VERY aggressively and has got away with it
As a result people drive far more defensively when trying to keep Max behind or get in front of him - so Max gets away with it again

Even Lewis has said that he treats Max differently to any other driver
but then, until now, Lewis has always known that in the long run Max will not win - the Merc was always so much faster over the whole season that Lewis would win anyway

But now Lewis has to push because his car is a best equal to the red Bull - possibly maybe even probably - a bit slower. Therefore Lewis has to treatMax as an equal and not back off
During the first lap Lewis gave up on a couple of corners where he could have claimed the line but Max was never going to back off - by Copse he was probably fed up with giving up to Max's aggression and just matched it.
Lewis was possibly a bit off the apex - bu he had the inside line and was level - or damn close to it so Max should have taken the outside line
However, Max did not - he turned in on the assumption that Lewis would back off again
He didn't
Either could have backed off - Lewis already had a couple of times but didn't this time
Max could have - but didn't and may have increased the aggression by turning in

Max's fault - but a racing incident


----------



## classic33 (19 Jul 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Chris Horner?
> 
> Blimey he gets about a bit. First he wins the Vuelta. Then he marries Ginger Spice. Now he's running an F1 team. Is there no limit to his talents?


Last two are in wrong order. Running an F1 team first, then married Ginger Spice.


----------



## NorthernDave (19 Jul 2021)

Racing incident.
Vestappen has a reputation as an aggressive driver and he knew Lewis was there, in a heavy fully fuelled car that was likely to understeer - he could have easily avoided the incident but chose not to.

It's ironic that F1 were faffing with qualifying at Silverstone in a bid to make the sport more exciting, but the minute something genuinely exciting happens they're dishing unwarranted penalties about.

I've never been a fan of Horner, but he excelled himself yesterday with his level of childish finger pointing and over the top outrage - funnily enough he was silent a couple of weeks ago when Checko took two drivers off in separate but similar incidents in the same race wasn't he?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (19 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I think it's a deal more complex than that.
> 
> Has Chandhok's walk-through been linked on thread yet? CLC had the best seat in the house and called it a racing incident, as did Alonso.
> 
> ...



Aye I've seen it said elsewhere that Sky were heavily in favour of Hamilton, maybe in the same way that CH4 favour Red Bull as referenced by @Reynard 

At the end of the day, the stewards looked at ALL the data, including from the cars themselves and ruled that Hamilton was at fault.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Jul 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Aye I've seen it said elsewhere that Sky were heavily in favour of Hamilton, maybe in the same way that CH4 favour Red Bull as referenced by @Reynard
> 
> At the end of the day, the stewards looked at ALL the data, including from the cars themselves and ruled that Hamilton was at fault.


What part of his pretty detailed analysis didn't you agree with?


----------



## Joey Shabadoo (19 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> What part of his pretty detailed analysis didn't you agree with?


Its just his opinion and what he thinks the drivers were thinking. The stewards gave their opinion and theirs is the only one that matters.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Jul 2021)

Joey Shabadoo said:


> Its just his opinion and what he thinks the drivers were thinking. The stewards gave their opinion and theirs is the only one that matters.


As I said originally, that's a little simplistic.

The penalty reflects, without question, that there's blame on both sides. Why? Because if someone had driven dangerously such that they endangered the life of another driver (according to CH...), they really wouldn't be getting a 10-sec penalty, and not even a Stop-Go.

This was an accident that was going to happen. MV has been putting other drivers in a 'yield or we crash scenario' for a long time now - but this time it was very badly judged on his part, both in terms of the WDC, and his position on the track, on the outside of the corner.

Compare this move and what CH said about his driver then. Not at all condemnatory when his own driver stuffs a car up the inside - in fact great driving...but only because LH was mature enough to avoid contact by opening up the steering.


----------



## mustang1 (19 Jul 2021)

FishFright said:


> Hamilton understeered because he would never have made that line stick , Verstappen was in the way.


good point


----------



## Beebo (19 Jul 2021)

View: https://youtu.be/FRt8hXFb0Vg


This is the opening lap. At 32 seconds Hamilton is well ahead going to a corner but Max forces through on the inside when Hamilton pulls out.
2 corners later the opposite happens but Max only slightly ahead but doesn’t pull out. He can’t have it both ways.


----------



## FishFright (19 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> It's a lot, but eminently survivable if protected. The 'record' g survived in motorsport is 4 times that.



You should have stopped after a lot.


----------



## NorthernDave (19 Jul 2021)

I wonder how MV and CH have reacted to today's reports that Lewis would also have had to retire due to damage sustained in the racing incident if the race hadn't been red flagged?
Apparently that delay to the race gave Mercedes time to carry out the necessary repairs and we all know what happened then...


----------



## Bonefish Blues (19 Jul 2021)

FishFright said:


> You should have stopped after a lot.


Why? You gave no measures or comparators to help. You just invited us to let it sink in, for some reason. Momentary g forces, even very high ones, are very (routinely in the case of F1) survivable.


----------



## icowden (20 Jul 2021)

NorthernDave said:


> I wonder how MV and CH have reacted to today's reports that Lewis would also have had to retire due to damage sustained in the racing incident if the race hadn't been red flagged?
> Apparently that delay to the race gave Mercedes time to carry out the necessary repairs and we all know what happened then...



I think even Lewis knows that that was his error. I suspect he will make up with Max out of the spotlight. He had a lot of luck with the red flag.
I think this may still be Max's year though. It's almost like the 2121 regs were brought in to deliberately limit Mercedes as the only cars with a different chassis configuration.

Can't wait for next year - the new cars look snazzy!


----------



## Beebo (23 Jul 2021)

Red bull say the repair costs will exceed £1million, which will impact their ongoing development budget. 
plus a potential grid penalty for replacing the power unit. A grid penalty does seem a bit harsh when it wasn’t a reliability issue.


----------



## Reynard (23 Jul 2021)

Beebo said:


> Red bull say the repair costs will exceed £1million, which will impact their ongoing development budget.
> plus a potential grid penalty for replacing the power unit. A grid penalty does seem a bit harsh when it wasn’t a reliability issue.



They should take it out of Max's retainer...


----------

