# An open letter to all condescending male chauvinist cyclists



## Pat "5mph" (8 Apr 2017)

Dear male cyclists,
A wee note to inform you that your attitude is rattling our mudguards.
From you, Hi-Vized to the extreme on a bright day, helmeted on the segregated path, riding on a shared pavement at 20mph, we don't want to hear comments about our cycling.
We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets, we don't want you to tell us not to practice riding no handed on a deserted cycle route, we don't want you to teach us how to use our gears, we don't want you to coach us on how to coast to a stop when our chain comes off, we don't want you to lash out if we get in the way of your Strava segment, we also don't want you to assume we are new to cycling.
In fact, most of us are trained ride leader and year round commuters.
Regards,
The Glasgow Belles on Bikes.


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## Cuchilo (8 Apr 2017)

Is it ok to say "nice arse" as we pass ?


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## ufkacbln (8 Apr 2017)

I had a young lady stop to offer me assistance when changing a puncture!

Personally I don't see cyclists as anything else. Bike type, gender, serious, roadie, commuter, leisure rider is all fairly irrelevant. If they look to be in trouble I will always ask (even those with single panniers) if I can assist. Usually with "Have you got everything you need" rather than "Do you need help with that puncture"

The only difference I make is that if it is a female rider I stay on the bike and at a distance. I was informed by a female rider that this was less "threatening"


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## ColinJ (8 Apr 2017)

It isn't _ALL_ of us! 

Yes, something strange happens to some men when they see an opportunity to be competitive, aggressive and bossy. It doesn't just get dumped on women though - I have experienced that kind of attitude too and I am a 6' 1" man. They aren't really fussy who they do it to ...


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## Pat "5mph" (8 Apr 2017)

@Cunobelin did you read my op? 
@Cuchilo haha ... NO


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## arch684 (8 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Dear male cyclists,
> A wee note to inform you that your attitude is rattling our mudguards.
> From you, Hi-Vized to the extreme on a bright day, helmeted on the segregated path, riding on a shared pavement at 20mph, we don't want to hear comments about our cycling.
> We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets, we don't want you to tell us not to practice riding no handed on a deserted cycle route, we don't want you to teach us how to use our gears, we don't want you to coach us on how to coast to a stop when our chain comes off, we don't want you to lash out if we get in the way of your Strava segment, we also don't want you to assume we are new to cycling.
> ...


Pat I have had guys trying to tell me how to cycle and I had a saddle bag before they even had a school bag.It's not just woman who get this sort of thing


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## iandg (8 Apr 2017)

Wouldn't dream of it.


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## snorri (8 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> The Glasgow Belles on Bikes.


Motto.....Wha daur meddle wi' us?


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## Supersuperleeds (8 Apr 2017)

You should have blown them a Glasgow kiss.


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## deptfordmarmoset (8 Apr 2017)

Pat(5mph)ronised? Apologies for our half.


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## Pat "5mph" (8 Apr 2017)

arch684 said:


> Pat I have had guys trying to tell me how to cycle and I had a saddle bag before they even had a school bag.It's not just woman who get this sort of thing





ColinJ said:


> It isn't _ALL_ of us!
> 
> Yes, something strange happens to some men when they see an opportunity to be competitive, aggressive and bossy. It doesn't just get dumped on women though - I have experienced that kind of attitude too and I am a 6' 1" man. They aren't really fussy who they do it to ...


I did not realize this! Feel better now lol.


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## BrynCP (8 Apr 2017)

ColinJ said:


> It isn't _ALL_ of us!
> 
> Yes, something strange happens to some men when they see an opportunity to be competitive, aggressive and bossy. It doesn't just get dumped on women though - I have experienced that kind of attitude too and I am a 6' 1" man. They aren't really fussy who they do it to ...



I have to own up to the competitive bit. I see a cyclist in front, and they become an (hopefully) achievable target for me to catch up too and focus effort on. I mean no offence to them, whether they're older, younger, male or female. Half the time, I don't catch up, half the time, I do, but I'd never dream of insulting them I would just pass them and continue my ride.  I would only do this safely, and on a road though: except for the Humber Bridge, I will avoid shared paths if I am likely to be exceeding 15mph, and on the bridge I slow well behind anything else as per the rules which say I give way, not them.

I've also had some other cyclists tell me how I should be doing things, such as using a cycle path instead of the road, or even not to use a cycle path and to use the road!


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## ColinJ (8 Apr 2017)

BrynCP said:


> I have to own up to the competitive bit. I see a cyclist in front, and they become an (hopefully) achievable target for me to catch up too and focus effort on. I mean no offence to them, whether they're older, younger, male or female. Half the time, I don't catch up, half the time, I do, but I'd never dream of insulting them I would just pass them and continue my ride. I would only do this safely, and on a road though: except for the Humber Bridge, I will avoid shared paths if I am likely to be exceeding 15mph.


I don't mind people just overtaking me. I spotted a younger rider catching up with me on a hill today though I got onto the following steep descent before him and got away for a while. He soon overtook me on the next climb and said 'hi' as he breezed past. No harm in that. It is the ones that seem to want to bludgeon you out of the way (and have a contemptuous sneer on their faces as they pass) that I don't like.

My superfit female friend Carrie came out on my forum ride last week. She is tiny and I have seen men think it clever to try and show her up. What they don't realise is that she is probably fitter than 90% of them. I only get to witness a few minutes of their discomfort trying to stay with her when she accelerates because I can't keep up, but I get to hear about it later!  (PS I'm not talking about the three men that DID keep up with her last weekend. I'm talking about _other_ riders!)


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## User33236 (8 Apr 2017)

Unfortunately my current CC have several individuals of the XX chromosome variety who play the damsel in distress to perpetuate the myth that their kin are of similar lack of ability.

Mrs SG had, on occasion, ran 'puncture parties' where she has invited, otherwise, competent cycling friends along to enjoy an evening of wine, nibbles and carrying out puncture repairs using several spare wheels etc from our stock .

I will pass someone of either sex, who appears to be competent, and will enquire if in need of assistance for ANY individual who appears to be struggling. Similarly I will happily ride with my club, or on commute, but offer advice to other riders, male or female, where it is absolutely obvious they are making fundamental mistakes. This will only be done though once gaining some knowledge of their ability amd experience.

I do get where you are coming from and unwarranted comments can be insulting.


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## slowmotion (8 Apr 2017)

I don't know if it helps, but the last time I tried to help a female rider in a display of chivalry, it didn't work out as planned. She had an up-turned bike on the grass of Battersea Park and seemed to be fixing a puncture. I was practicing riding with SPD cleats for the first time. Right on cue, as I said" Do you need a hand?", I failed to unclip . Gravity took over. Much laughter. I couldn't get the bike off my feet as I lay on the ground.


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## Pat "5mph" (8 Apr 2017)

@User33236 I am talking about random guys here, butting in in our group of ladies.
Today one complained because some of us were practicing no handed on am empty street that is part of a NCR.
Then he proceeded to skip a red light!
Truly, I would never tell another how to ride if I'm not leading them, I might give them the look if the cut me up or something, but that's it.


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## User33236 (8 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @User33236 I am talking about random guys here, butting in in our group of ladies.
> *Today one complained because some of us were practicing no handed on am empty street that is part of a NCR.
> Then he proceeded to skip a red light!*
> Truly, I would never tell another how to ride if I'm not leading them, I might give them the look if the cut me up or something, but that's it.


One of these is being handled in a safe way the other isn't and would cause me to raise a vocal objection. I'll let you guess which


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## Pat "5mph" (8 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4754512, member: 9609"]sorry about that Pat, probably had a few too many beers again[/QUOTE]
Was it you again?


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## gaijintendo (9 Apr 2017)

This thread made me feel like a dobber for offering someone a cruddy £1 rear elastic light because theirs was inadequate - on account of them being female. I guess I should maybe be more aware of how things are perceived, even if it's not how they are intended.

I have considered getting a bulk order from a Chinese retailer and just thrusting then upon the legion stealth cyclists of each and every gender. I hadn't really considered that action making me a dislikeable... and I'm really able to accept that I am dislikeable... but I still can't put my finger on exactly why.

I feel if you explain this to me, it might help in other facets of my life.


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## classic33 (9 Apr 2017)

gaijintendo said:


> This thread made me feel like a dick for offering someone a crappy quid rear elastic light because theirs was inadequate on account of them being female.
> I have considered getting a bulk order from a Chinese retailer and just thrusting then upon the legion stealth cyclists of each and every gender. I hadn't really considered that making me a dislikeable... and I'm really able to accept that... but I still can't put my finger on exactly why.
> I feel if you explain this to me, it might help in other facets of my life.


Poundworld do cheap lightsets for a pound.


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## Flick of the Elbow (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Dear male cyclists,
> A wee note to inform you that your attitude is rattling our mudguards.
> From you, Hi-Vized to the extreme on a bright day, helmeted on the segregated path, riding on a shared pavement at 20mph, we don't want to hear comments about our cycling.
> We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets, we don't want you to tell us not to practice riding no handed on a deserted cycle route, we don't want you to teach us how to use our gears, we don't want you to coach us on how to coast to a stop when our chain comes off, we don't want you to lash out if we get in the way of your Strava segment, we also don't want you to assume we are new to cycling.
> ...


What a ridiculous post.


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## Markymark (9 Apr 2017)

Can you teach me to ride no handed please as I chicken out whenever I try?


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## Milkfloat (9 Apr 2017)




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## Dayvo (9 Apr 2017)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> What a ridiculous post.



_Thou doth protest too much._


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## John the Monkey (9 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Can you teach me to ride no handed please as I chicken out whenever I try?


God, yes. I've cycled on and off for 30 odd years, and still can't ride no hands.


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## Markymark (9 Apr 2017)

John the Monkey said:


> God, yes. I've cycled on and off for 30 odd years, and still can't ride no hands.


Could do it without thinking when a kid. Definitely a lost skill.


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## Drago (9 Apr 2017)

Sounds like chumps, and the external arrangement of their genitalia is incidental.


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## Slick (9 Apr 2017)

Sorry to hear about this Pat, I'm guessing that not too many males would really fully understand your complaint which in turn clarifies why there's a need for groups like Belles on Bikes.


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## Drago (9 Apr 2017)

It was sincere(ish)


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

Cuchilo said:


> Is it ok to say "nice arse" as we pass ?



I was out on the tandem and there was a group of young lads behind us.... as they passed, one lad shouts "nice arse" at which point y 75 year old Mother in LAw leered at him with her best "gurn"

He nearly fell off hs bike and was seriously ribbed by his mates for fancying geriatrics


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## Dan B (9 Apr 2017)

Dayvo said:


> _Thou doth protest too much._


I'm not 100% on this but i think you mean "dost" not "doth" here


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## Drago (9 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> as they passed, one lad shouts "nice arse" at which point y 75 year old Mother in LAw leered at him with her best "gurn"



Pass the mind bleach!


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @User33236 I am talking about random guys here, butting in in our group of ladies.
> Today one complained because some of us were practicing no handed on am empty street that is part of a NCR.
> Then he proceeded to skip a red light!
> Truly, I would never tell another how to ride if I'm not leading them, I might give them the look if the cut me up or something, but that's it.


Perhaps you could have made that clear in your post.

It does just come across as a rant against all men.

Just sayin...


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## Shortandcrisp (9 Apr 2017)

Really can't understand this male macho bollox in cycling. I love cycling but to be really good at it requires the upper body strength of a frozen haddock. Just tell the weedy little speed merchants to do one! Hope that's constructive.


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## winjim (9 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Well said, Pat. And thank heavens there is at least one man out there who doesn't instantly live right down to all the old stereotypes:


The one where a man apologises on behalf of all men? Not in my name. I accept the premise of the OP and will examine my own attitude and behaviour accordingly, but I won't have somebody apologise on my behalf and neither am I able to apologise for the actions of others.


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## Dayvo (9 Apr 2017)

Shortandcrisp said:


> *Really can't understand this male macho bollox in cycling.* I love cycling but to be really good at it requires the upper body strength of a frozen haddock. Just tell the weedy little speed merchants to do one! Hope that's constructive.




It's in all sports and walks of life and is, quite frankly, pathetic to see.


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## Bobby Mhor (9 Apr 2017)

@Pat "5"mph
Just as well I'd a premonition about 'mad wimmen oan bikes' yesterday so I took to the north bank of the river

Mind you if I'd been earlier, I'd have met you once I headed back up through Glasgow south side and Paisley.
Close shave, phew!


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## Cuchilo (9 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> I was out on the tandem and there was a group of young lads behind us.... as they passed, one lad shouts "nice arse" at which point y 75 year old Mother in LAw leered at him with her best "gurn"
> 
> He nearly fell off hs bike and was seriously ribbed by his mates for fancying geriatrics


When i was an apprentice the lads used to wolf whistle the girls when driving the vans , there was a fella locally that had lovely long blonde flowing hair . It used to crack me up when they used to whistle him and then realise it was a fella .


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## Smokin Joe (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets,


I used to argue politely with other cyclists who came out with that. Now my replies are scathingly sarcastic, generally managing to fit the word "MAMIL" in at some point. Should it happen during a food stop I also light a cigarette which has the effect of making them go white with fear.


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> I used to argue politely with other cyclists who came out with that. Now my replies are scathingly sarcastic, generally managing to fit the word "MAMIL" in at some point. Should it happen during a food stop I also light a cigarette which has the effect of making them go white with fear.



Yehuda Moon:


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## Shaun (9 Apr 2017)

Can we move the language lesson to the Cafe and get back on topic please - there's been enough diversion.

Thanks,
Shaun


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## MontyVeda (9 Apr 2017)

In my experience, it's only blokes who try to turn something as trivial as riding a bike (and many other things) into a willy waving contest... and more often than not, it's those who talk about cycling more than they actually go cycling. Last week i posted an 18 mile route on Facebook. It was a screenshot from google maps with the estimated time of 2hours 4mins... one friend claimed i was far too slow and suggested i go riding with him to get my speed up. I replied saying that I wanted to spend more time cycling, not less, but didn't bother pointing out that the time shown wasn't 'my' time... he can stay ignorant. Then there's things like_ It takes you how long to mend a puncture, I can do it in X seconds!_ Who gives a sh!t? And the _My bike cost a grand!_ Wow, I'm really not bothered. Most folk have a thousand quid bike when they use the C2W scheme, and you still drive to work. It's just an extension of _my dad's bigger than your dad_ stuff from primary school. Too many blokes struggle to grow out of it.


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## Mugshot (9 Apr 2017)

MontyVeda said:


> In my experience, it's only blokes who try to turn something as trivial as riding a bike (and many other things) into a willy waving contest..


Can't imagine why that might be.


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## ayceejay (9 Apr 2017)

It is a fact that hi - viz material contains a toxic substance that can turn a normal person into a nobber and here is your answer Pat


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## gaijintendo (9 Apr 2017)

MontyVeda said:


> In my experience, it's only blokes who try to turn something as trivial as riding a bike (and many other things) into a willy waving contest...


If you are not able or good enough to get into a willy waving contest, you always have the option participating in a willy waving sportive...


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

I always thought the Bells on Bikes piccies looked a bit like the female cycling arm of the Hells Angels.

Edit: Belles


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

Sorry, Belles. it's the blokes who are being bells isn't it.


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## Dayvo (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755109, member: 76"]To write a letter to male cyclists is insulting to the huge majority of male cyclists, a large number of who are on here posting regularly.[/QUOTE]

If the cap fits...


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## snorri (9 Apr 2017)

The problem with this forum is...................................................................................you don't see the expression on the face of the poster as they type.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

_I objected to the behaviour of a man, only to be told that the incidents hadn't happened at all as I said, that I was subjective, delusional, overwrought, dishonest - in a nutshell, female.

Most of my life, I would have doubted myself and backed down. Having public standing _[as a writer]_ helped me stand my ground, but few women get that boost, and billions of women must be out there on this seven-billion person planet being told that they are not reliable witnesses to their own lives.
_​


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## mickle (9 Apr 2017)

'Not all men'. 

Bingo.


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

Shaun said:


> Can we move the language lesson to the Cafe and get back on topic please - there's been enough diversion.
> 
> Thanks,
> Shaun



If thou sayeth that it must be so


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

Crackle said:


> I always thought the Bells on Bikes piccies looked a bit like the female cycling arm of the Hells Angels.
> 
> Edit: Belles



Bells on Bikes are compulsory, and available to all genders
Belles on Bikes is voluntary, but gender specific


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755165, member: 76"]You are happy with the pretext of the letter being only addressed to male cyclists.

You have just said that female cyclists don't behave like that.

Which of the above is wrong then?[/QUOTE]

Far too logical - will be dismissed as "mansplaining"


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

Most of the female dog walkers I come across have had abuse from men about their dog on a shared use path we all use. Me, I never have, funny that.


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Because female ones tend not to behave like this?


And nor do male ones


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## MarkF (9 Apr 2017)

I had a fully kitted guy last summer, pull up next to me at red lights, prior to a really busy junction (albeit one I've cycled through unscathed several times a week for a decade or more) and, unsolicited, start to talk/coach me through the junction, WTF!


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## gaijintendo (9 Apr 2017)

Might be a good time to create a list of conversation topics which are acceptable? Weather forecast? Price of a loaf of bread?


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755215, member: 76"]Well, that proves that all male cyclists are obnoxious sexists right there. You should have mentioned it earlier, we could have saved 6 pages.

I have been stabbed with a knife, 3" deep in my right forearm, it was by a woman. Therefore all knife wielding maniacs are women yeah?[/QUOTE]
You know exactly what's meant in the OP and exactly what the problem is but for some reason you've chosen to make an argument out of it instead of saying, well that's not me but I know what Pat means and furthermore I understand her frustrations. Remind us what you do for a profession again.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Classic.


'He was already [...] holding forth, eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority.'


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## CanucksTraveller (9 Apr 2017)

I can only think Pat thought it was too quiet on the forum, and she chose to make a comedy thread to liven it up. 

Just imagine how many pages we'd get if a man wrote a similar comedy broadbrush open letter to women cyclists.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Apr 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> Funny... as a male, I was not in the least offended by @Pat "5mph"'s post.


Me neither. I read it as listing a series of annoying behaviours, exhibited exclusively by male cyclists. If you're a male cyclist and you exhibit those behaviours - time for a re-think. If you don't you can either feel a bit smug, or you can fire off a series of furious "yeah, but what if ..." posts.


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755240, member: 76"]I teach people.

I teach people that just because a person belongs to a certain group, or looks a certain way, or has a certain disorder or is a certain gender that it is wrong to prejudge their motives, attitudes, behaviours or beliefs.

It's interesting that if someone had written an open letter to 'asylum seekers' saying don't behave like that, or 'immigrants' to stop behaving like the other, or heaven forbid 'women' to pack it in doing that, the very same little group who have rounded on me would all be wittering on about lazy generalisations and stereotyping.

Remind us, what do you do for a living?[/QUOTE]
Well you crack on, my post was not rounding on you, merely an eyebrow raising as I've read enough of your posts to know that you're actually quite empathic and I'm not really sure if you're being slightly mischevious here.

IT by the way, now but working with special needs in the distant past and other things too, not that what I do for a living seems particularly relevant whereas I though yours was but you've not given us a complete answer.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Dear male cyclists,
> A wee note to inform you that your attitude is rattling our mudguards.
> From you, Hi-Vized to the extreme on a bright day, helmeted on the segregated path, riding on a shared pavement at 20mph, we don't want to hear comments about our cycling.
> We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets, we don't want you to tell us not to practice riding no handed on a deserted cycle route, we don't want you to teach us how to use our gears, we don't want you to coach us on how to coast to a stop when our chain comes off, we don't want you to lash out if we get in the way of your Strava segment, we also don't want you to assume we are new to cycling.
> ...


You can count on my support :-)


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## CanucksTraveller (9 Apr 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> You don't get it do you? And I'm guessing you never will. Pat's experiences are real and they upset her enough to write about it. I think it is crass in the extreme to dismiss them as a comedy broad brush letter.



You're right that I don't get something... what I don't get was why her ire was addressed to male cyclists, rather than the cyclists who upset her. As I say, put the shoe on the other foot and imagine the outrage that'd result from that generalisation.

Generalisation to this extent, _to any sex_ is crass in the extreme.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

CanucksTraveller said:


> You're right that I don't get something...


I've cut the unnecessary bits for you. There is no charge for this service.


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## Ian H (9 Apr 2017)

CanucksTraveller said:


> You're right that I don't get something... what I don't get was why her ire was addressed to male cyclists, rather than the cyclists who upset her.


Similar stories, on and off the bike, are regularly related to me by various female friends, and they are without exception about men. It's the male of the species that does the _patronising_ thing. My suspicion is that, if you don't get that, you're probably guilty of it.


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

I had a young lady stop to offer assistance with a puncture

She started to explain how I should be replacing the tyre without levers.......Then stated "But I suppose at your age..... Arthritis would make that difficult!"

Ageism as well!


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## Sara_H (9 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> I had a young lady stop to offer me assistance when changing a puncture!
> 
> Personally I don't see cyclists as anything else. Bike type, gender, serious, roadie, commuter, leisure rider is all fairly irrelevant. If they look to be in trouble I will always ask (even those with single panniers) if I can assist. Usually with "Have you got everything you need" rather than "Do you need help with that puncture"
> 
> The only difference I make is that if it is a female rider I stay on the bike and at a distance. I was informed by a female rider that this was less "threatening"


I often stop to offer assistance, I think I've rattled a few cages, but one or two have accepted assistance or just been pleased that someone stopped to pass the time of day.


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## Spinney (9 Apr 2017)

Ian H said:


> Similar stories, on and off the bike, are regularly related to me by various female friends, and they are without exception about men. * It's the male of the species that does the patronising thing.* My suspicion is that, if you don't get that, you're probably guilty of it.


It's not just men. Perhaps the patronising thing when cycling is more often done by men, but in general both sexes can dish it out.


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## ufkacbln (9 Apr 2017)

Sara_H said:


> I often stop to offer assistance, I think I've rattled a few cages, but one or two have accepted assistance or just been pleased that someone stopped to pass the time of day.



This is my concern..... the possibility that someone may be deterred from offering help or assistance because it is seen as "wrong"

A quick "Do you have everything that you need" is hardly offensive!


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## Ian H (9 Apr 2017)

Eh? An offer of assistance to someone at the side of the road is perfectly fine. Riding alongside a woman you don't know and providing an unasked-for critique of her cycling skills is almost certainly not.


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## John the Monkey (9 Apr 2017)

mickle said:


> 'Not all men'.
> 
> Bingo.


Someone should make that a hashtag or something, you know?


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Classic.


So what. Males tend not to act this way. 

Sure some do and some females act disgracefully too (ever watched an episode of Geordie Shore, plenty of evidence of both there). Idiots are idiots, sometimes they drive BMW's, Sometimes they ride bikes, sometimes they possess a penis.


Is your logic that all men are the same. What happened to your insistence that one bad cyclist doesn't alter peoples perception of the rest.


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> Funny... as a male, I was not in the least offended by @Pat "5mph"'s post. I hope I'm not a mansplainer and I hope I would never exhibit such behaviours. However, Pat has clearly witnessed and been the victim of them. My response to reading Pat's post is that I've gained some insight into the daily male-driven behaviours that many women are subject to. Picking an argument about whether she is wrong to write her open letter or not, seems to me a very good way of dodging the important issue, namely how uncomfortable some men (cyclists) make many women (cyclists) feel. It's not a representative sample, but I read the post to Mrs R and she has many similar experiences........which is laughable because she's an experienced cyclist who has raced at the top level in triathlon (she won a team gold medal at the European Ironman Championships in 1987). Come on guys, let's admit that Pat has described an unacceptable behaviour. Let's also acknowledge the major contribution Pat makes through the running of her cycle group. The more we try and criticise her experiences, the more we prove her point.


Happy to admit that Pat has experienced some terrible behaviour, which sounds awful. Not happy to admit that this makes all men guilty of the same. Some maybe, many perhaps.....but not all


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## smutchin (9 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Me neither. I read it as listing a series of annoying behaviours, exhibited exclusively by male cyclists



Same here. Seems obvious to anyone who can read that @Pat "5mph"'s point was that it's exclusively male cyclists who behave this way, not that all men behave this way. Those who are taking offence are revealing more about themselves than they might realise. 



CanucksTraveller said:


> Generalisation to this extent, _to any sex_ is crass in the extreme.



If you're referring to specific examples of a certain type of behaviour, it's not a generalisation. HTH.


----------



## Markymark (9 Apr 2017)

Quick straw poll. 

1. How many women have been subject to patronising critique from men of their cycle craft whilst out minding their own business?

2. How many men have been subjected to similar from women?

I think the underlying problem may be highlighted from the ratio of the above.


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## Ian H (9 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> ...Some maybe, many perhaps.....but not all


No-one is suggesting all. But—invoking my female friends experience again—I have been surprised at how many are, including men of my acquaintance whom I wouldn't suspect of such behaviour.


----------



## Cuchilo (9 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Quick straw poll.
> 
> 1. How many women have been subject to patronising critique from men of their cycle craft whilst out minding their own business?
> 
> ...



Actually i get quite a few females trying to tell me i'm a bit old to be doing wheelies and skids , the same old mocking ... Its rush hour ... you're an idiot .... ii'll call the police if you dont go away


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## HLaB (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Dear male cyclists,
> A wee note to inform you that your attitude is rattling our mudguards.
> From you, Hi-Vized to the extreme on a bright day, helmeted on the segregated path, riding on a shared pavement at 20mph, we don't want to hear comments about our cycling.
> We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets, we don't want you to tell us not to practice riding no handed on a deserted cycle route, we don't want you to teach us how to use our gears, we don't want you to coach us on how to coast to a stop when our chain comes off, we don't want you to lash out if we get in the way of your Strava segment, we also don't want you to assume we are new to cycling.
> ...


I've not read the full 8 pages but it sound like you came across a right @rse !


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Quick straw poll.
> 
> 1. How many women have been subject to patronising critique from men of their cycle craft whilst out minding their own business?
> 
> ...


The only rider who has ever tapped my back wheel and insisted I move up alongside a tipper truck at a junction, was a woman. So its certainly not exclusively a male thing.

Its just an idiot thing.


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## Milkfloat (9 Apr 2017)

HLaB said:


> I've not read the full 8 pages but it sound like you came across a right @rse !



Most pages of the tread.


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

User said:


> So, perhaps it is just overwhelmingly women who are on the receiving end.


Or perhaps it isn't.


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

Ian H said:


> No-one is suggesting all. But—invoking my female friends experience again—I have been surprised at how many are, including men of my acquaintance whom I wouldn't suspect of such behaviour.


I think some are suggesting all, or at least suggesting its only a man thing.

I think its all idiots, and its exclusively and idiot thing.


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## smutchin (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755502, member: 76"]Is it? Spinney just mentioned above that she has had similar behaviour from a woman. So, it is not exclusively males that do this.[/QUOTE]

Pat was talking about her own experience, not making generalisations.


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## John the Monkey (9 Apr 2017)

What's important here isn't the experience of Pat and her group, it's that we establish that not all male cyclists would behave this way.


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## subaqua (9 Apr 2017)

If something's hanging off that's gonna hurt somebody , or somebody rides where they will hurt others then regardless of sex( gender is s social construct apparently) they get told .nicely.


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## MontyVeda (9 Apr 2017)

How is stating that someone wearing hi-viz and a helmet, riding at 20mph on shared use path a generalisation?


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## MontyVeda (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755609, member: 76"]It's not. But the thread isn't called "To the nobber in hi-viz cycling at 20 on a shared path", it's called "An open letter to male cyclists" I trust you see the difference?[/QUOTE]
have you ever heard the phrase, _don't judge a book by its cover? _If so, do you understand what it means?


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## HLaB (9 Apr 2017)

Without reading all 9 pages I'm taking it in the same vane as a 'Dear Driver' thread; where folk have came across right berks but they are not addressing all drivers.


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## winjim (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755609, member: 76"]It's not. But the thread isn't called "To the nobber in hi-viz cycling at 20 on a shared path", it's called "An open letter to male cyclists" I trust you see the difference?[/QUOTE]I read the OP as referring to a number of separate incidents, involving a number of different male cyclists.


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## Dogtrousers (9 Apr 2017)

HLaB said:


> Without reading all 9 pages ...


Oh no. You don't get out of it that easily. Go and read all 9 pages right now.


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## RedRider (9 Apr 2017)

Yeah, what's important isn't the experience of women as raised in the op, rather it's that men's feelings aren't hurt. After all there's an important principle of equality to uphold here and if we allow the generalisation that men are entitled pricks with little self awareness to stand unchallenged then what next? Hard to imagine but we could end in a society where women are belittled and their contributions undervalued. Thank the gods we have men of good humour and reason to stand against this


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## MontyVeda (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755636, member: 76"]You are right, @Pat "5mph" should not have judged the comments from other cyclists, who happen to be male, as negative, but should have taken them in the helpful way they were meant. I think you may be right.

That is what you meant isn't it?[/QUOTE]
If it was directed at Pat, i'd have quoted her. I quoted you. You're not very good at reading stuff and understanding it are you.

(edited for typo)


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## Cuchilo (9 Apr 2017)

Oh maaaannnn its kicking off again


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## gaijintendo (9 Apr 2017)

I think what I have learnt today is, if someone writes an open letter - you have the option of reading it, and then you have the opportunity to self-reflect and decide if it applies to you.
I think it might apply to me, as I noted ten pages back, so it was worthwhile reading it as far as I am concerned.


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## hopless500 (9 Apr 2017)

CanucksTraveller said:


> I can only think Pat thought it was too quiet on the forum, and she chose to make a comedy thread to liven it up.
> 
> Just imagine how many pages we'd get if a man wrote a similar comedy broadbrush open letter to women cyclists.


Seriously??


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## Glow worm (9 Apr 2017)

hopless500 said:


> Seriously??



Quite. I could hear the 'whoosh!' From here!


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

Spinney said:


> It's not just men. Perhaps the patronising thing when cycling is more often done by men, but in general both sexes can dish it out.


Does the etymology interest you at all? Do you often feel matronized?


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> If something's hanging off that's gonna hurt somebody , or somebody rides where they will hurt others then regardless of sex( *gender is s social construct apparently*) they get told .nicely.


'Apparently'?


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

Here's the thing. There are a lot of things I 'don't get'. When I don't get something, I view the options as:
a) keep schtum, in case what I say about it is ignorant cobblers
b) do some research so that I either get it, or have some substance to back up my hunch that it doesn't need getting
c) listen to people who do get it, in the hope of learning something
What's your approach?


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## smutchin (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755598, member: 76"]No, she addressed all male cyclists.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't say 'all' in the thread title. HTH


----------



## robjh (9 Apr 2017)

User said:


> I could see if the coin is interested.


It has three sides?


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

User said:


> I could see if the coin is interested.


Is there a 'benefit-of-the-doubt' thing to be deployed pre-coin?


----------



## Tim Hall (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Is there a 'benefit-of-the-doubt' thing to be deployed pre-coin?


That would need a further coin. I'm not sure if Adrian has an endless supply of such things.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (9 Apr 2017)

Some on here have been busy being mortally offended while I was at work.
I truly did not expect this.
Well, look at your behavior, if you are not like the cyclists I have described good on you, if, on the other hand you are, kindly stop it.



jonny jeez said:


> Perhaps you could have made that clear in your post.
> It does just come across as a rant against all men.
> Just sayin...


Yes, all male cyclists that exhibit that behavior.
When I find my rides peppered with women doing that I will write a letter to them also.
To date, after 6 years of cycle commuting plus leisure riding, no woman cyclist has rattles my mudguards yet, so I have not yet cause to write an open letter to women cyclists about this topic.



Bobby Mhor said:


> @Pat "5"mph
> Just as well I'd a premonition about 'mad wimmen oan bikes' yesterday so I took to the north bank of the river
> Mind you if I'd been earlier, I'd have met you once I headed back up through Glasgow south side and Paisley.
> Close shave, phew!


Surely you being aware of the perils would have stopped you from any unsolicited comments about our riding?  



Crackle said:


> I always thought the Bells on Bikes piccies looked a bit like the female cycling arm of the Hells Angels. Edit: Belles


It's an artist adaption of Icarus' wings, you know, Greek mythology, symbolizes the wings of freedom cycling gives you.
Mind, Icarus wings got burned when he flew too near the sun, he fell flat on his face.

[QUOTE 4755109, member: 76"]What a ludicrous post. Are you seriously saying that 'Male cyclists' behave like this to you all the time?[/QUOTE]
Yes, they do, lots of times, not all the time, but plenty enough for it to have peed me right off yesterday, when I wrote the op.
The first few times I dismissed this as casual occurrences, lately I have started seeing a pattern.
I am actually quite thick skinned, takes ages until I notice folks being nobbers.

[QUOTE 4755109, member: 76"]To write a letter to male cyclists is insulting to the huge majority of male cyclists, a large number of who are on here posting regularly.[/QUOTE]
Some of the behavior I described has been exhibited by CC (male) members, at least 3 times I was on the receiving end, at least twice other Belles, also CC members, were.
What do you want? Tags?
At least once I have subtly mentioned that behavior on the open forum to the culprit, but it went, like .... whooshhh.



theclaud said:


> _Most of my life, I would have doubted myself and backed down. Having public standing _[as a writer]_ helped me stand my ground, but few women get that boost, and billions of women must be out there on this seven-billion person planet being told that they are not reliable witnesses to their own lives._


Spot on that woman!
Thank (insert non safe for CC word here) my self doubting years have long past: I stand my ground on this cycling issue.

[QUOTE 4755147, member: 76"]Indeed, but the cap doesn't fit all male cyclists. An open letter to 'The cyclist we met earlier' would have worked wouldn't it? Why is it addressed to 'male cyclists'?[/QUOTE]
Because "the cyclist we met earlier" was not the only one, was not the first one, will not be the last one.
As I said above, I'm quite thick skinned, a few of those incidents over the year I have dismissed as inconsequential.
Lately there have been a few too many, my (derailleur) cage is rattled!

[QUOTE 4755286, member: 76"]What about the rest of my post, do you agree that all discrimination is bad and that people should not massively generalise?[/QUOTE]
I strongly disagree: in a cycling context I make no excuses in saying that most taxi drivers (whatever gender they are) are out to squash me, most WVM (or women) will close pass me, ALL abuse I ever got by other cyclists was by male cyclists.
Of course that does _not _mean that all male cyclists hurl abuse at females.



User14044mountain said:


> Pat's experiences are real and they upset her enough to write about it.


Nay, I'm not upset, merely peed off 
I wrote the post because I thought it would be interesting to discuss this on CC with other women, the oultrage of some of the men Cchatters was quite unexpected.



CanucksTraveller said:


> what I don't get was why her ire was addressed to male cyclists, rather than the cyclists who upset her.


Again, I'm not upset, I'm rather peed off.
The ones that peed me off have all, without fail, been male, hence the addressing.



Cunobelin said:


> This is my concern..... the possibility that someone may be deterred from offering help or assistance because it is seen as "wrong"


You still did not read the op!
Nobody asked for help, nobody was offered help, we were cycling in a non obstructive manner, on a road devoid of motorized traffic, we were reprimanded by random cyclists, men we'd never met before.



John the Monkey said:


> What's important here isn't the experience of Pat and her group, it's that we establish that not all male cyclists would behave this way.


Nononono!!!
What's important is that we establish that Pat, the Glasgow Belles, the Belles of everywhere in Scotland, the UK and beyond are mighty angry at the male cyclist that behave this way: we will pelter you with our bike pumps next time this happens, so, stop it right now.
If you are not one of "them" tell your pals, because if it's not you it must be "them".
Btw, if my experiences are not important your cries of innocence are an overkill.


----------



## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

Tim Hall said:


> That would need a further coin. I'm not sure if Adrian has an endless supply of such things.


 Deep pockets, short arms???


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## CanucksTraveller (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Here's the thing. There are a lot of things I 'don't get'. When I don't get something, I view the options as:
> a) keep schtum, in case what I say about it is ignorant cobblers
> b) do some research so that I either get it, or have some substance to back up my hunch that it doesn't need getting
> c) listen to people who do get it, in the hope of learning something
> What's your approach?


My approach is to generally avoid internet arguments where so much can be misconstrued. I don't want to get into this, I have better things to put my energy into. Have fun.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

CanucksTraveller said:


> My approach is to generally avoid internet arguments where so much can be misconstrued. I don't want to get into this, I have better things to put my energy into. Have fun.


Laterz.


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## John the Monkey (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> John the Monkey said:
> 
> 
> > What's important here isn't the experience of Pat and her group, it's that we establish that not all male cyclists would behave this way.
> ...


Sorry - my post was an inexpert attempt to point out the "Not all men" tone of some of the responses you were getting (whilst simultaneously attempting to avoid a thread lock/movement to SC&P by using irony). I should have used a smiley!


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Apr 2017)

John the Monkey said:


> Sorry - my post was an inexpert attempt to point out the "Not all men" tone of some of the responses you were getting (whilst simultaneously attempting to avoid a thread lock/movement to SC&P by using irony). Should have used a smiley.


Ok, sorry, misunderstood you.
A smiley would have helped, yes


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Ok, sorry, misunderstood you.
> A smiley would have helped, yes


But which one?  or  or  or  ? Or maybe ?


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## Pat "5mph" (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> But which one?  or  or  or  ? Or maybe ?


The "hit your heid ona brick wall" would have done nicely


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## User32269 (9 Apr 2017)

I take my hat off to any male brave enough to to take on The Glasgow Belles On Bikes face to face.


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> But which one?  or  or  or  ? Or maybe ?


Good job you're a gurl an that, trying to school Pat in the use of smileys. Some of us might have got a metaphorical pump on the bonce for that.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

Crackle said:


> Good job you're a gurl an that, trying to school Pat in the use of smileys. Some of us might have got a metaphorical pump on the bonce for that.


Twas a question, not an instruction. I find the yellow faces of limited value.


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Twas a question, not an instruction. I find the yellow faces of limited value.


I know: I wrote it, realized it didn't make sense, went to delete and pressed publish instead. So it will stand for all time as a testament to my clumsiness and you replied too fast for me to delete it.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

Crackle said:


> I know: I wrote it, realized it didn't make sense, went to delete and pressed publish instead. So it will stand for all time as a testament to my clumsiness and you replied too fast for me to delete it.


We could make a Deletion Pact...


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## deptfordmarmoset (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> We could make a Deletion Pact...


Mutually Assured Deletion! Wasn't that a cold war strategy and nothing got deleted?

Meanwhile, apropos nothing, your avatar's nostrils look disconcertingly like my avatar's eyes....


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## Crackle (9 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> We could make a Deletion Pact...



We'd have to include Deptford now and it'll all get too complicated.


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## User32269 (9 Apr 2017)

I'm willing to accept PayPal in order not to quote previous posts before deletion pact.


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## theclaud (9 Apr 2017)

odav said:


> I'm willing to accept PayPal in order not to quote previous posts before deletion pact.


It seems to have all gone tits up.


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## jonny jeez (9 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Some on here have been busy being mortally offended while I was at work.
> I truly did not expect this.
> Well, look at your behavior, if you are not like the cyclists I have described good on you, if, on the other hand you are, kindly stop it.
> 
> ...



yeabbut, why not just write a letter to all "male cyclist exhibiting that behaviour" then.

Or perhaps all idiot men?

but you wrote "Dear male cyclists". I am a male cyclist and so assumed you are addressing me too.

Some on here may be morally offended, others may just be unclear of the point that you are making.

Anyhow, I'm sorry to hear of the levels of idiocy that some men seem to have displayed towards you, they sound like bloody idiots.


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## gaijintendo (9 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> yeabbut, why not just write a letter to all "male cyclist exhibiting that behaviour" then.
> 
> Or perhaps all idiot men?
> 
> ...



If the thread was called "An open letter to all a***hole cyclists" then only a couple of us may have read it.

Edit: The subject title has now changed, and the letter is immediately less jolly and less offensive, and the "all men" debate is immediately quashed. Another minor victory for menkind!


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## winjim (9 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755893, member: 76"]Your argument kind of falls apart in the first half a dozen or so lines eh? 'If you aren't like this you are ok', 'All men do this' Doesn't make a huge amount of sense does it?[/QUOTE]
Read very carefully the line which you have underlined in bold.
[QUOTE 4755893, member: 76"]Why on earth are your feelings more important than the males on this forum who are a little offended by your post[/QUOTE]Because women have to put up with this sort of shoot all the time. All the time. The men on this forum who are offended can just log out and go back to basically being in charge of the world.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755893, member: 76"]Your argument kind of falls apart in the first half a dozen or so lines eh? 'If you aren't like this you are ok', 'All men do this' Doesn't make a huge amount of sense does it?[/QUOTE]
Where did I say "all men do this"? I said "All who do this are men".
I will add "All who have done this to me in the past were men"
Also "all of this I have witnessed done to my riding companions were men".


[QUOTE 4755893, member: 76"]Who are the CC members then, let's have some names, you are the fearless Belles, don't be cowed by their maleness, strike back, name names.[/QUOTE]
Are you a child???
What "cowed by maleness", it's simple good manners not to name them on the forum.
I will nevertheless hit them with my pump in person if they ever do it again when we meet.

[QUOTE 4755893, member: 76"]Why on earth are your feelings more important than the males on this forum who are a little offended by your post?[/QUOTE]
Did I say my feelings are more important than yours?
You're free to write your own letter on CC about anything cycling related that grates your chain, that is one of the purposes of this forum, don't you agree?


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## ufkacbln (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> You still did not read the op!
> Nobody asked for help, nobody was offered help, we were cycling in a non obstructive manner, on a road devoid of motorized traffic, we were reprimanded by random cyclists, men we'd never met before.



You have chosen a single post out of context as it is a reply to another poster


The point is that there are circumstances when offering help is appropriate and a the early post you took exception to illustrates and a contrast to the generic claims you are making

Others have understood that angle.......and don't have any issues with it


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## RedRider (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755893, member: 76"]Your argument kind of falls apart in the first half a dozen or so lines eh? 'If you aren't like this you are ok', 'All men do this' Doesn't make a huge amount of sense does it?

Who are the CC members then, let's have some names, you are the fearless Belles, don't be cowed by their maleness, strike back, name names.

Why on earth are your feelings more important than the males on this forum who are a little offended by your post?[/QUOTE]
a) "that"
b) diddums


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> The point is that there are circumstances when offering help is appropriate and a contrast to the generic claims you are making


Oh for goodness sake!
What help?
It went like that:
8 Belles riding on a Saturday morning, empty road part of the NCN, chatting, laughing, we enter a bike only precinct, leading to traffic lights into a main road.
I start to practice no hand, laughing. Behind me another does the same.
Suddenly a few guys appear behind us, one starts to say we should not wobble allover the road, then he proceeds to skip the lights.
Nobber!
On another occasion: empty road, sunny Sunday morning, we are cycling towards town, a random guy appears, joins us, "hi, who are you, what, Belles? what is this then? no hi-vis, no helmets?"
Oh, go and do one! Btw, he did contact one of the girls later on our meetup page, with a view of asking her out. Charming first approach, eh?
Here's another: I'm cycling home minding my own business, I leave the paths for the road because I decided to go to the shops, the guy behind me informs me that I can stay on the shared pavement after this point.
When I say, yes, I know, he says "Oh, I thought you didn't"
Oh right, who died and made a random man my cycling mentor?
What about that poor woman I witnessed shouted at by a speeding male cyclist, again on a shared path?
Her crime: she was cycling on the wrong side of the path, slowly, because there was pedestrians walking on her left.
There is lots more, but I'm heading for bed.
Be offended as much as you like 
Btw this thread's title will be changed soon (not by me ) to cause less offense.
May your manliness keep proud and strong


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## mickle (10 Apr 2017)

Maggot. FFS.


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## Shaun (10 Apr 2017)

Any man who read @Pat "5mph"'s OP and took genuine offence on behalf of "all" blokekind really missed the point; that _The Belles_ (fellow cyclists) are being badly treat by a few condescending and patronising blokes whilst out trying to enjoying their cycling.

It's a shame. Women should be able to go out and enjoy their rides and each other's company, and not have to worry about unwanted attention or advice from random strangers who are men ("strange men" seemed a bit loaded, even if it might be appropriate in some cases ).

I don't doubt for a moment that Pat and her friends enjoy the company of men on non-Belle's rides, and are willing to accept help if they need it - but I can see how the unsolicited comments and advice might grate. It would certainly get on my tits.


----------



## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> 'Apparently'?



well all the years i have been alive I have never been taught it was a social construct, even in PHSE by a raving Feminist . thats why "apparently" . will it change what I do , will i still stop . yup of course.


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> well all the years i have been alive I have never been taught it was a social construct, even in PHSE by a raving Feminist .


Raving?

The entire purpose of gender is to make the inequality of the sexes appear normal and natural in order to perpetuate it. This life-changing insight is feminism's gift to you. You're welcome.

PS I fix people's mechanicals too. Most often men who've already destroyed two inner tubes, used up all their CO2 and didn't bring a pump.


----------



## summerdays (10 Apr 2017)

I've tried to think about where I stand on this issue and it's a bit muddled for me at least. I find most men are nice (hopefully that will keep a fair few of you from feeling I'm attacking you personally), but I've also been on the receiving end of "helpful advice". Problem is I have no idea if they offer the same advice to men as well.

There was the man who stoped to help fix a puncture by the side of the road, so I assumed he would be an expert, problem is that I knew more than him, the only thing he had going for him was brute strength but he used that to force something that he shouldn't have done, and I just wanted him to leave me to my slower but careful fixing, but I'm a wimp so didn't tell him to get lost. He may have stopped for men too .... but I think he saw me as a damsel in distress rather than a damsel running late.....

There have been other occasions when you wonder if they would treat a man the same (I'm assuming they don't give some of the sexist comments I occasionally hear). But luckily I've forgotten them for now!


----------



## srw (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4755892, member: 9609"]If I kept schtum on stuff I knew nowt about I probably wouldn't have got to double figures. I just give it a wurl and see what happen[/QUOTE]
When someone points out you're wrong, the trick, as not a few men on this thread are ably demonstrating by their failure to shut up, is to give way gracefully and accept that you might not know everything, even on subjects you might think you're an expert in.

(And I apologise for a hideously ugly sentence.)

I wouldn't dream of giving advice to @Pat "5mph" and friends, but I think it might be quite funny if the next time they were patronised _en masse_ while on a ride they gave some unwanted advice back. Form up into a circle around the man so that he can't escape and fire away with the womansplaining.


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (10 Apr 2017)

User said:


> I don't know whether I should be offended on behalf of everyone with dwarfism here.


Are we talking about _some_ dwarves here or _all _dwarves....?


----------



## swansonj (10 Apr 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> ...
> 
> Even if no CC member ever behaved liked that it is useful for all men to read it because it helps us to reflect on what many women experience on a daily basis.


Surely it's more than that. Being part of the class "male" is not something those of us who belong to it can opt out of, any more than we can "white" or "British". We can (with varying degrees of success depending on our self-awareness) attempt to opt out of certain behaviours, but we can't opt out of our experience of formation and living as males in a male-dominated society*. What Pat's letter should help us males to reflect on isn't something comfortably outside ourselves - the behaviour of other men, not like us atall - but on the structures of our society, that create the situation where those men behave the way they do, and that we are most definitely part of. 


theclaud said:


> PS I fix people's mechanicals too. Most often men who've already destroyed two inner tubes, used up all their CO2 and didn't bring a pump.


On one of my early Fridays, before I'd entirely worked out who you were and I'm quite certain before you knew who I was, I passed you repairing a puncture. "Need any help?" I called; "no I'm fine" you called back; and I cycled on. I've subsequently made the same offer to male cyclists. But no-one should kid themselves that the subtext to those various offers was not significantly different. 

*there's a fascinating parallel with the debate on whether the prior life experience of trans women means that they have a different character of being a woman from cis women.


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## Dogtrousers (10 Apr 2017)

Just about on topic: I offer tools/tubes/patches/spare links etc to people of either sex but I really hate it if they actually accept the offer and I have to stop and talk to them. I don't like to touch their bikes, due to my own hamfistedness - I don't want to end up with a zillion pound bill after accidentally snapping a wispy carbon bike clean in two. Nor do I like to offer advice because, while I know my own bikes very well, other people's could be weirdly different with unfamiliar components. In fact, I don't like advising anyone on anything, because I'm normally wrong. I still live in fear of retribution from the Tesco delivery driver I once sent on a hideous twisty wrong road after he asked me for directions.


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## Welsh wheels (10 Apr 2017)

I don't doubt that the OP's experiences happened and that they were unpleasant. Bear in mind though that this doesn't speak for all men. It's a fact of life that there are some idiots and some lovely people wherever you go. I have met both types of men. I have also met both types of women. Yes, the men the OP encountered were tools, but this isn't because they were men, it's because they were nasty and immature people.
That addresses what the OP came across like, but I acknowledge that wasn't the intention of the OP. The intention was to draw attention to the sexist behaviour of some cylists, and for the discussion to be about what some cyclists are like not what men are like. For the sexist behaviour she experienced, the OP has my sympathy.


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

There is a difference between offering help to someone repairing a puncture which i would always do (I'm crap at repairing punctures but i do carry the right tools) and offering unsolicited "advice"
Have just been reminded by the "on this day" facility on Facebook of a good ride spoiled by some mansplaining pratt last year. I was out riding on my own and just at the start of a descent when i passed a travellers camp with lots of animals. It was interesting so i applied my brakes to have a better look rather than whizz past. I was aware of a group of cyclists coming the other way when the bloke at the head of the group started with " don't be nervous on hills love - you won't get any better at them if you ride on your brakes like that"
I was too gobsmacked to think of anything to say back. 
What does get out of saying something like that? Does he genuinely think his comments are helpful in some way? Does it make him look like a big man in front of his mates?


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> I don't doubt that the OP's experiences happened and that they were unpleasant. Bear in mind though that this doesn't speak for all men. It's a fact of life that there are some idiots and some lovely people wherever you go. I have met both types of men. I have also met both types of women. Yes, the men the OP encountered were tools, but this isn't because they were men, it's because they were nasty and immature people.


Of course it is not all men and of course both men and women can be tools but this is a particularly male way of being one. As any woman (not just those who cycle) will be able to tell you


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## MontyVeda (10 Apr 2017)

I'm incredibly nervous on downhills... I never used to be until the day i came across i nice steep one and whizzed my way down, only to find a potholed, gravel ridden dogleg at the bottom. If i don't know what's coming i don't 'let go' any more. Brake pads are two a penny, my knees and elbows aren't.


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## Inertia (10 Apr 2017)

Its an enlightening thread, for myself, Im a little like Dogtrousers, I hope they wont accept the help. I usually just ask if they have everything they need, I would never just stop and butt in without invitation.

Its also interesting at people taking offence, I didnt think Pat meant all men, since I am a man and I dont behave in this way. I recognise that being a man I dont run into a lot of difficulties that woman do. I also recommend Master of none episode 7, Ive felt like Dev from time to time 

NSFW


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## kingrollo (10 Apr 2017)

Jesus, can't everyone just get on there bike and ride it. Do we have to shoebox, divide and categorise every cyclist. Its just bods on bikes, most people are doing it because they enjoy it.


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## smutchin (10 Apr 2017)

kingrollo said:


> most people are doing it because they enjoy it.



Some of them are stopping other people from enjoying it. This is why we're talking about it.


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

I see the thread title's been changed. Shame, I think it made more sense before. This way feels like a capitulation to political correctness and male chauvinism. I would explain why but it would feel a bit patronising and mansplainy, I think those who get it would not need it pointing out and for those who don't get it, there's probably no point anyway.


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## smutchin (10 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> This way feels like a capitulation to political correctness and male chauvinism.



It feels like exasperation to me.


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## jonny jeez (10 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> It feels like exasperation to me.


It feels like lack of clarity to me.


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## deptfordmarmoset (10 Apr 2017)

Feels like some bloke told her to do it....


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## SteveF (10 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> It feels like lack of clarity to me.



Feels like this thread should be in the Politics sub forum to me


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## PhilDawson8270 (10 Apr 2017)

kingrollo said:


> Jesus, can't everyone just get on there bike and ride it. Do we have to shoebox, divide and categorise every cyclist. Its just bods on bikes, most people are doing it because they enjoy it.



Until somebody does something stupid, then they're not a cyclist. They're just a person on a bike


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Raving?
> 
> The entire purpose of gender is to make the inequality of the sexes appear normal and natural in order to perpetuate it. This life-changing insight is feminism's gift to you. You're welcome.
> 
> PS I fix people's mechanicals too. Most often men who've already destroyed two inner tubes, used up all their CO2 and didn't bring a pump.



If you have never been taught something how do you know it's meaning .... 

And by raving , imagine napoleon and snowball where all are equal except some are more equal than others . 

That sort of raving that really winds my wife up as it does nothing to help . 

Me I don't care if your male or female , straight or not , all I care about is people not getting hurt . If I see something on any bike that's going to be an issue with that I will talk to people. 

Usually a " not sure if you've noticed but .." generally works pretty well and gets a positive response. 

The person I spoke to this morning who I asked if their hips or lower back hurt after riding their bike was appreciative of the suggestion of dropping the saddle height an inch to stop the severe hip rocking.


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## Dogtrousers (10 Apr 2017)

You don't wanna do it like that!


(If some random who I don't know from Adam suggested to me that I change my saddle height, I would do all in my power to rid myself of them. This may involve swearing, but it's more likely to be along the lines of "Oh, thanks. Bye.")


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)




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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> I have had the experience of cycling slowly up a hill when one of the group I was with (a bloke, natch) rode alongside me and said, 'Nice low gear, good girl,' and patted me on the back. A friend was riding up a hill on a cycling holiday when some bloke saw fit to say to her, 'You want to change down a bit, love, makes it less of a slog.' In all the years I've been cycling, no woman has ever, unsolicited, said anything approaching this in terms of uselessness and sheer patronising ego-trippery. Men in general simply have no idea how often things like this occur, and not just related to riding a bike. It wears you down and makes you start to lose your sense of humour, especially when men then deny and deny that this happens with any frequency.




Now that is patronising behaviour from a bloke.


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## steveindenmark (10 Apr 2017)

I am going to start a similar post about DIY within the home. I know how to use a drill and am fully aware what the bubble in a spirit level is for.


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## PhilDawson8270 (10 Apr 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> View attachment 346737



Only thing wrong with this is the "lady", and the "she". I consider all of that to be a good flow chart on how to behave to everybody. Unless you're a persons coach, you have no right trying to tell somebody how to do what they're doing unless they have asked.

I have 1 duck foot, that points out at the toes (right foot), my left is straight. My cleats are adjusted to keep the natural angles of my knees. I've lost count on the amount of times, another cyclist has pointed out to me, that my cleat positions are wrong. Or that they will cause me an injury. Yet they know nothing about me, or my body geometry, or my experience. By the way, everyone of these people were male. Never once, has a female commented about it.

I also do archery, and the club has clear guidelines. Do not offer help unless you are a coach, or have been asked. So many people don't understand how to behave in a socially acceptable manner. Maybe it's a chemical difference between the sexes that causes this. But then I'm unsure. I'm terribly competitive in everything I do, but I still wouldn't go around butting in about what people should and shouldn't do. So maybe it is just being a good person?


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## hopless500 (10 Apr 2017)

steveindenmark said:


> I am going to start a similar post about DIY within the home. I know how to use a drill and am fully aware what the bubble in a spirit level is for.


Ah, but do you know where to buy spare bubbles from?


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## PhilDawson8270 (10 Apr 2017)

SteveF said:


> Feels like this thread should be in the Politics sub forum to me


But it wouldn't be an open letter if it was in an opt-in forum


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Blimey, so it is! Thanks.



Shakes head . 

So men can't make a comment now can they ??? 

Get off that high horse .


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## Speicher (10 Apr 2017)

steveindenmark said:


> I am going to start a similar post about DIY within the home. I know how to use a drill and am fully aware what the bubble in a spirit level is for.



I know the offside rule, and how to use opposite lock when driving/reversing. I only take two pairs of shoes with me on holibobs, can I join your thread? You can show me how to use a drill.


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## Ian H (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> Shakes head .
> 
> So men can't make a comment now can they ???
> 
> Get off that high horse .


I thought she treated you very gently and with good humour.


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> You first.




I wasn't one one but it would be Ladies before Gents unless that offends the sensitive types . ( gender neutral ) 

I got called chauvinist for holding a door open ( which I do for men and women as it's you know , polite) for a lady.

I shall stop being polite to people as I don't fancy getting a gobfull of bile from people who don't understand doing things because it's polite . 

I shall also stop offering help , then we can see threads about how nobody offers help anymore.


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## jonny jeez (10 Apr 2017)

User said:


> The last 14 pages have not made it sufficiently clear?


Yes but the first page didn't and is what seemed to have caused the last 14.

I am not at all offended by pats OP but have been offended with a number of posts that seem to lump me and others into some male chauvinist camp, simply for asking for clarity. Which, as I have stated over and over is that idiots are idiots.

I've joined many discussion on the topic and have learnt a lot about the impact and about what I can do to change that. This thread was never allowed an opportunity to do that and spiralled immediately into a slinging match. All seems like a lost opportunity to me.

Sorry @Pat "5mph" , I just think its an important topic that deserves some thought. Btw pat, that list that you posted of things that idiot men had said and done....those things have all (pretty much) happened to me, so I'm not convinced its a male thing at all.

I am convinced that a "male thing" exists.....but not that this is it.


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## jonny jeez (10 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> I have had the experience of cycling slowly up a hill when one of the group I was with (a bloke, natch) rode alongside me and said, 'Nice low gear, good girl,' and patted me on the back. A friend was riding up a hill on a cycling holiday when some bloke saw fit to say to her, 'You want to change down a bit, love, makes it less of a slog.' In all the years I've been cycling, no woman has ever, unsolicited, said anything approaching this in terms of uselessness and sheer patronising ego-trippery. Men in general simply have no idea how often things like this occur, and not just related to riding a bike. It wears you down and makes you start to lose your sense of humour, especially when men then deny and deny that this happens with any frequency.


I rekon the issue here isn't the interruption...this has and does happen to me all the time (try riding Flanders without some idiot telling you you need to "float" or stop cheating when you fall onto the smooth gutter, or worse still barging you into the gutter as they flail by)

I think the issue is the default use of language that is offensive, massively patronising and sexist.


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## steveindenmark (10 Apr 2017)

hopless500 said:


> Ah, but do you know where to buy spare bubbles from?



The bubble shop....DUH....


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (10 Apr 2017)

I've had comments passed by men relating to everything from why I shave my legs to why my bike is set-up with a quite large saddle-bar drop and how it should be etc etc

Yet I ride primarily with a female who has never once questioned anything I do or offered advice I didn't ask for (She is primarily a runner, and I for triathlon reasons ran too) we talk generically between sports


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## Bimble (10 Apr 2017)

Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?


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## Mo1959 (10 Apr 2017)

Bimble said:


> Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?


Can't think of it happening at all to be honest but that may be because I live in rural Perthshire and there's not quite as many cyclists.


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## summerdays (10 Apr 2017)

Bimble said:


> Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?


I'd go with rarely.... I think... for me, and it could be different in different parts of the country, perhaps if felmales are less well represented in the general cycling population?


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Apr 2017)

A few years back on a CTC ride I got a puncture on the rear wheel of the tandem I ride with a blind friend. Fixed puncture and carry one. Later on we notice the handling isn't quite right. At a regruop we get off and take a look. The rear rim has split, and nothing to be done. We are at the point where we are about to head off into lanes taking us much further away from home. So we decide we are going to carefully ride back home before the wheel goes completely. We tell the ride leaders that is what we are doing. The group starts heading off. A number of blokes in the group (as they pass) ask if we are ok, to which the reply is, yes we have a split rim and are going to head back home now. The number of them that just stopped like dependant puppies , expectantly wanting to do something. Till they were told they'd best get going before they lost the group. Even then it took far too many hints.

Climbing a hill on an Audax on the tandem. A young guy on a bike made of soot passes and says well done keep going. Cheeky f@cker, tandems are generally slower uphill or did no one educate him? Even if we are slower, did we give any impression we were finding it hard? Even if we did happen to find it hard, do you think your comment is motivational? We leave him for dead on the descent and flat after shouting "well done you'll get better" as we pass to which he pulls a face as he fails to catch us and disappears in our slipstream.


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## hopless500 (10 Apr 2017)

Bimble said:


> Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?


I've had a cycling friend (male) try to make me change cadence and I got a wee lecture which I completely ignored. 
Apart from that I've not had unsolicited comments from male cyclists (apart from a 'well done' from a chap who went past me as I got to the top of a hill - he'd have heard me cursing and swearing far in advance of seeing and overtaking me!)


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## KnackeredBike (10 Apr 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> A few years back on a CTC ride I got a puncture on the rear wheel of the tandem I ride with a blind friend. Fixed puncture and carry one. Later on we notice the handling isn't quite right. At a regruop we get off and take a look. The rear rim has split, and nothing to be done. We are at the point where we are about to head off into lanes taking us much further away from home. So we decide we are going to carefully ride back home before the wheel goes completely. We tell the ride leaders that is what we are doing. The group starts heading off. A number of blokes in the group (as they pass) ask if we are ok, to which the reply is, yes we have a split rim and are going to head back home now. The number of them that just stopped like dependant puppies , expectantly wanting to do something. Till they were told they'd best get going before they lost the group. Even then it took far too many hints.
> 
> Climbing a hill on an Audax on the tandem. A young guy on a bike made of soot passes and says well done keep going. Cheeky f@cker, tandems are generally slower uphill or did no one educate him? Even if we are slower, did we give any impression we were finding it hard? Even if we did happen to find it hard, do you think your comment is motivational? We leave him for dead on the descent and flat after shouting "well done you'll get better" as we pass to which he pulls a face as he fails to catch us and disappears in our slipstream.


Doesn't sound like either was a really big problem. I have stopped to help other riders and other riders and even cars have helped to stop me. I didn't think "What a shower of bastards I can do this by myself" I either politely accepted or declined the help.

IMO it is one of the good things about being a cyclist that people stop to help each other. I hope if my wife, who despite my best efforts wouldn't be able to mend a p*ncture, got stranded someone would stop to help her rather than being afraid of being thought of as chauvinistic.


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## PK99 (10 Apr 2017)

One thing I have enjoyed about cycling since getting my first ever road bike 10 years ago, is the friendly advice proffered by people I was riding with - from gearing on hills to optimum cadence on the flat. Seat height was improved also. I'm a better cyclist because of that unsolicited advice. Also the offers of help from passing cyclists when stopped with a puncture or mechanical are one of the nicest things about cycling folk.


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## PK99 (10 Apr 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> A few years back on a CTC ride I got a puncture on the rear wheel of the tandem I ride with a blind friend. Fixed puncture and carry one. Later on we notice the handling isn't quite right. At a regruop we get off and take a look. The rear rim has split, and nothing to be done. We are at the point where we are about to head off into lanes taking us much further away from home. So we decide we are going to carefully ride back home before the wheel goes completely. We tell the ride leaders that is what we are doing. The group starts heading off. A number of blokes in the group (as they pass) ask if we are ok, to which the reply is, yes we have a split rim and are going to head back home now. The number of them that just stopped like dependant puppies , expectantly wanting to do something. Till they were told they'd best get going before they lost the group. Even then it took far too many hints.
> 
> Climbing a hill on an Audax on the tandem. A young guy on a bike made of soot passes and says well done keep going. Cheeky f@cker, tandems are generally slower uphill or did no one educate him? Even if we are slower, did we give any impression we were finding it hard? Even if we did happen to find it hard, do you think your comment is motivational? We leave him for dead on the descent and flat after shouting "well done you'll get better" as we pass to which he pulls a face as he fails to catch us and disappears in our slipstream.



One of the (unwritten) rules of the CTC group I ride with is "no one is abandoned with a mechanical" I'm confused by you attitude to good group ride etiquette.

Similarly, why did you assume the comment from the guy passing was ill meant. Maybe he rides a tandem as well? A mate of mine who eschews the N+1 rule in favour of N+3 and has multiple bikes of every material plus several tandems from racing to touring. He is a keen audaxer and would be very likely to say "well done keep going" when passing a tandem going up hill as he knows it is slow.


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## Jody (10 Apr 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> Climbing a hill on an Audax on the tandem. A young guy on a bike made of soot passes and says well done keep going. Cheeky f@cker, tandems are generally slower uphill or did no one educate him? .



Was that not just words of encouragement


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## nickyboy (10 Apr 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> A few years back on a CTC ride I got a puncture on the rear wheel of the tandem I ride with a blind friend. Fixed puncture and carry one. Later on we notice the handling isn't quite right. At a regruop we get off and take a look. The rear rim has split, and nothing to be done. We are at the point where we are about to head off into lanes taking us much further away from home. So we decide we are going to carefully ride back home before the wheel goes completely. We tell the ride leaders that is what we are doing. The group starts heading off. A number of blokes in the group (as they pass) ask if we are ok, to which the reply is, yes we have a split rim and are going to head back home now. The number of them that just stopped like dependant puppies , expectantly wanting to do something. Till they were told they'd best get going before they lost the group. Even then it took far too many hints.
> 
> Climbing a hill on an Audax on the tandem. A young guy on a bike made of soot passes and says well done keep going. Cheeky f@cker, tandems are generally slower uphill or did no one educate him? Even if we are slower, did we give any impression we were finding it hard? Even if we did happen to find it hard, do you think your comment is motivational? We leave him for dead on the descent and flat after shouting "well done you'll get better" as we pass to which he pulls a face as he fails to catch us and disappears in our slipstream.



Not sure what the problem was. I'm always grateful for offers of help if I've got some bike problem, even if I don't need any help. I also have no problem with encouragement either. Last weekend up a really tough hill I was passed by a couple of young guys who said "good effort" as they passed me. To me that was just their appreciation of the effort of an older and heavier cyclist than themselves. I would say something similar if I passed someone gurning up a hill too

I will always offer help (in a non-gender specific way ) to any cyclist who I think may be in need, be it mechanicals, navigation or whatever. But I've never given "advice" to anyone except maybe a mate or two on their MTBs to get the seat up a bit


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## Jody (10 Apr 2017)

PK99 said:


> .............Seat height was improved also.



One of the things I most feel like offering advice on. Be it male or female.


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## Bimble (10 Apr 2017)

I would hope that any woman cyclist would be offered help if she's stopped by the roadside with a puncture or some mechanical difficultly. That's being helpful and polite to another cyclists. I'm sure your wife (and you) would appreciate such offers of assistance Knackeredbike, as would any number of CycleChat members, male and female.

But there's a difference between offering help and getting on your way if it is politely refused, and getting involved when uninvited - and it seems clear that Pat and other women have had to deal with this sort of insistence and uninvited commentary from men to the point of frustration.

If a woman says, "Oh, thank you, that's lovely but I'm okay. I've just got a puncture. I'll soon have it fixed." that seems to be a pretty clear signal for you to crack on and not worry about her outside of the normal 'I hope that cyclist got sorted and home safe'. She's got it covered (or wants to try and master the skill for herself no matter how difficult it might be). Hopping off your bike, digging out all your tools, shuffling her out of the way and taking over is clearly _not_ what she wants.


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## srw (10 Apr 2017)

I was once out with Mrs W when a chain came off a bike - I forget whether we were on solos and it was her bike or whether it was a tandem chain. She was getting on with putting it back on with a stick (sensibly not wanting to get greasy hands) when an oik (male, natch) barged her out of the way and reseated it. With his hands. He was wearing decent clothes. I didn't feel sorry for him.


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## summerdays (10 Apr 2017)

There is a difference between offering help, and the way that some can start informing you. I often see people out with their saddle too low or bike in need of some attention but I don't feel the need to tell them unless we strike up a conversation and during it they start asking for advice. It could just be they are behind on their maintenance or on a borrowed bike not wanting to adjust the saddle position.


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## rivers (10 Apr 2017)

Bimble said:


> Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?



I haven't had it happen to me. But I've also only been cycling for just under a year so.....


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## fossyant (10 Apr 2017)

It will be those mamil golfers that are trying out cycling as the new in thing.


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## MontyVeda (10 Apr 2017)

Jody said:


> One of the things I most feel like offering advice on. Be it male or female.


Hmmm... a non cycling acquaintance keeps calling cyclists out for having their seat too low. I've experienced this as a passenger in his car, and second hand from his fiancé... apparently my seat is too low too, but my leg is dead straight with my butt on the saddle and heel on the pedal, which in my book is just about right. Some folk just think they know better.


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## MontyVeda (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4756596, member: 9609"]...it does seem to be a male thing, never known a woman go on like this...[/QUOTE]

Oh I dunno... in the kitchen they can. 

Maybe i should have kept quiet about that


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## Jody (10 Apr 2017)

MontyVeda said:


> Hmmm... a non cycling acquaintance keeps calling cyclists out for having their seat too low. I've experienced this as a passenger in his car, and second hand from his fiancé... apparently my seat is too low too, but my leg is dead straight with my butt on the saddle and heel on the pedal, which in my book, is just about right. Some folk just think they know better.



I am on about the ones you see where the saddle is about touching their frame and knees are almost touching their chin. Not a fine critique but more helpful advice.


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## PhilDawson8270 (10 Apr 2017)

User said:


> We have all understood that. The argument is that it is predominantly a man on woman thing.



I think the point he is making is it seems to be a man on everybody thing. And one that is really irritating.


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## Mugshot (10 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> I was once out with Mrs W when a chain came off a bike - I forget whether we were on solos and it was her bike or whether it was a tandem chain. She was getting on with putting it back on with a stick (sensibly not wanting to get greasy hands) when an oik (male, natch) barged her out of the way and reseated it. With his hands. He was wearing decent clothes. I didn't feel sorry for him.


You stood and watched while your partner was "barged" out of the way?


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## kingrollo (10 Apr 2017)

I have people advise me whilst cycling. (I am a bloke) - I would the % male to female cyclists would explain why its mostly blokes giving out the advice. Surley the advice is with good intention in any case. 
Move along nothing to see here.


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## Inertia (10 Apr 2017)

PhilDawson8270 said:


> I think the point he is making is it seems to be a man on everybody thing. And one that is really irritating.


I think the point is that although it _can _affect men and women, it affects women a lot more often.


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## BrumJim (10 Apr 2017)

To be honest, all women need a little explaining and encouragement. It's because they are the weaker sex.

I pulled up alongside a pretty little blonde thing the other day at the lights. Said her name was "Laura". I explained to her the intricacies of cycling and gave her some good advice as to what to do in the event of a puncture, and which route to take. She was heading straight for a tricky hilly route, and wasn't happy that she could manage it, so I suggested an alternative route that I was taking.

I checked that she was happy being out on her own, and she said she was cycling with a couple of friends - Jason and Kenny, I think she said. So I bid her farewell, and shot up the road as fast as I could, just to show her how fast a man can cycle. Never saw her again, but there again, I wouldn't expect her to, being a woman and all.


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## Dayvo (10 Apr 2017)

HLaB said:


> I've not read the full 8 pages but it sound like you came across a right @rse !



And he _may_ be present on this forum, judging by some of the comments made by some 'shocked and offended' male posters.


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## Markymark (10 Apr 2017)

Should have advised her to cut her hair so she could be faster up that hill.


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## ojoman (10 Apr 2017)

Urghhh, it happens to males as well. A self-appointed Custodian of the Roads (riding a Ribble bike with steel/alu mudguards) yelling at me not to undertake him, even though I had no intention of doing just that.

However, the most head-shake inducing are the types who make a comment as they scoot past you, trying to spur you into some sort of penis-engorging battle. Sorry, but I am wearing lycra because it is practical. I am also on mile 50 of a round commute and have a shed-load of marking strapped to my back. I am not interested in racing, I have a nice bike because I like cycling and I'm going for a bloody run when I get home. Go away


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## srw (10 Apr 2017)

Mugshot said:


> You stood and watched while your partner was "barged" out of the way?




I was telling a story, which means that I didn't include _all_ the details and might have coloured up one or two for effect. It's not uncommon, either in written or in oral storytelling. I'm sure a woman with an English degree will be along shortly to tell us the proper technical name for that sort of thing.

Both Mrs W and I remonstrated with him, but since he was determined to be an arse - and a useful arse - it was simpler to let him get on with it. I got a little anecdote about a male chauvinist out of the episode, we got a reseated chain, he got a little bit of righteous anger that I wasn't treating my little lady properly because I dared to _let her _do something she's quite capable of doing. I think that's win-win-win.


----------



## MontyVeda (10 Apr 2017)

Jody said:


> I am on about the ones you see where the saddle is about touching their frame and knees are almost touching their chin. Not a fine critique but more helpful advice.


like this?


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## jonny jeez (10 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Then, by page 14, you could have used the past participle felt rather than the present feels, implying that the confusion was ongoing.


Fair enough.


----------



## JoshM (10 Apr 2017)

I hardly think that comparing offering a hand to someone is the same as offering advice unsolicited. 

To use the changing puncture example given by a few here - the example doesn't fit. The man who approached @Pat "5mph" and the belles didn't ask them if they wanted some advice, he simply gave it. That's not the same as asking if someone needs a hand fixing a puncture, its akin to getting off your bike and making to fix their puncture without asking.


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## jonny jeez (10 Apr 2017)

summerdays said:


> There is a difference between offering help, and the way that some can start informing you. I often see people out with their saddle too low or bike in need of some attention but I don't feel the need to tell them unless we strike up a conversation and during it they start asking for advice. It could just be they are behind on their maintenance or on a borrowed bike not wanting to adjust the saddle position.


Honestly, I get that stuff all the time. It may be well meaning but I really think that often its not, its about showing another rider your prowess in some passive aggressive way . I cant speak.on anyone else's behalf but if it helps to diffuse the situation, it happens across genders. From my own personal.experience

I was lectured about my saddle height on sunday, after riding Flanders the following day..by a chap who finished the ride an hour slower than me. Sure he could be trying to help, more likely he was compensating.

I rode home last week and was joined by a club rider from a local club. He was insistent in telling me that if plan to do this often I must buy a filter mask...I've been doing it for about 10years. I wont be buying a filter mask

Riding up box hill, a lady shouted support for me with "nice legs!" I suspect there was a degree of irony but I laughed and wondered if I could pull that comment off....i wouldn't


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## wheresthetorch (10 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> I'm sure a woman with an English degree will be along shortly to tell us the proper technical name for that sort of thing



"Hyperbole."


----------



## Dismount (10 Apr 2017)

I think people these days are too easily offended the OP simply shared her frustrations. She may or may not have referred to 'all men' assuming she did if you are not one of these men don't be offended and give yourself a pat on the back. If I pass any cyclist I either say hello, nod my head or smile. If I saw a cyclist fixing a puncture or any other mechanical issue I would offer assistance if it were to be refused I would wish them a good day and carry on with my journey it's an act of kindness and not gender specific.


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## Shaun (10 Apr 2017)

I've removed a few posts. Please let's not fight amongst ourselves. Thanks.


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

Shaun said:


> I've removed a few posts. Please let's not fight amongst ourselves. Thanks.


See, this is just the sort of thing we've been talking about. A man comes in and starts interfering, throwing his weight around like he's got some sort of authority, deleting posts willy-nilly as if he flipping well owns the place or something. Appalling behaviour.


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

swansonj said:


> Surely it's more than that. Being part of the class "male" is not something those of us who belong to it can opt out of, any more than we can "white" or "British". We can (with varying degrees of success depending on our self-awareness) attempt to opt out of certain behaviours, but we can't opt out of our experience of formation and living as males in a male-dominated society*. What Pat's letter should help us males to reflect on isn't something comfortably outside ourselves - the behaviour of other men, not like us atall - but on the structures of our society, that create the situation where those men behave the way they do, and that we are most definitely part of.
> 
> On one of my early Fridays, *before I'd entirely worked out who you were* and I'm quite certain before you knew who I was, I passed you repairing a puncture. "Need any help?" I called; "no I'm fine" you called back; and I cycled on. I've subsequently made the same offer to male cyclists. But no-one should kid themselves that the subtext to those various offers was not significantly different.
> 
> *there's a fascinating parallel with the debate on whether the prior life experience of trans women means that they have a different character of being a woman from cis women.



Who am I???

I should point out that I'd have accepted your help without a qualm had I been having any difficulties - which anyone can have, even if they know how to fix something. I've been assisted with minor (and occasionally serious) mechanicals countless times on the FNRttC, mostly by men, and don't feel at all belittled or patronized by it. I have occasionally been able to be of assistance to others, although there is usually a better or faster mechanic in the vicinity.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph, although I think the value in what Rocky says still applies.

As to your last (asterisked) point, I agree, if by 'fascinating' you mean 'utterly dismaying and desperately polarized'. It's a debate I'm mostly watching from the sidelines but expect to get caught up in at some time. I hesitate as I can't see a way out of the current impasse.


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> *If you have never been taught something how do you know it's meaning .... *
> 
> And by raving , imagine napoleon and snowball where all are equal except some are more equal than others .
> 
> ...



I'm attempting to be informative. It appears to me that you are _resisting _an opportunity to learn something.

I take descriptions of women as 'raving' with a hefty pinch of salt, not being convinced that it would be the adjective you'd choose if you were describing a man with the same objective qualities. I decided to investigate my hunch that its usage is heavily gendered by the sophisticated method of Googling it. This is the first hit:

_irrational or incoherent talk.
"the ravings of a madwoman"
synonyms: gibberish, rambling, babbling, wild talk, incoherent talk 
"he dismissed her words as the ravings of a hysterical woman"_​
My case reaches for a cheroot, etc etc...


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## smutchin (10 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> I take descriptions of women as 'raving' with a hefty pinch of salt, not being convinced that it would be the adjective you'd choose if you were describing a man with the same objective qualities.



Cue male CC user helping you out by providing an example of a man being described as raving...


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> Cue male CC user helping you out by providing an example of a man being described as raving...



Of course not that would be condescending and we can't have any of that ..... 

Even when it comes from somebody who thinks it's awful...


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## Inertia (10 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> Cue male CC user helping you out by providing an example of a man being described as raving...


.. by a woman


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> I'm attempting to be informative. It appears to me that you are _resisting _an opportunity to learn something.
> 
> I take descriptions of women as 'raving' with a hefty pinch of salt, not being convinced that it would be the adjective you'd choose if you were describing a man with the same objective qualities. I decided to investigate my hunch that its usage is heavily gendered by the sophisticated method of Googling it. This is the first hit:
> 
> ...



No not resisting at all. However a massive amount of people have not been taught the difference . Me included . 

That quote describes her to a tee .. the spittle flying out of her mouth as she ranted was not a pretty sight . A fairly regular occurrence too. 

So , genuine question . 

2 candidates 1 male 1 female , both equally qualified , same age , but male has the practical experience for the role. 

Who should get the job? 

Who got the job ?


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> I was telling a story, which means that I didn't include _all_ the details and might have coloured up one or two for effect. It's not uncommon, either in written or in oral storytelling. *I'm sure a woman with an English degree will be along shortly to tell us the proper technical name for that sort of thing.*



Sorry it's not more exotic, but I'd say that _narration _(as in the act of telling) probably covers it. If I wanted to sound like more of a nobber I'd say you are describing what happens at the level of _discourse _as opposed to _story_ (my fave narratologist is French, and he would say_ récit _and _histoire_), and encompasses questions of both _mood _and _voice_. If you want fancier words for a similar distinction you need to be a Russian Formalist, and throw in stuff like _fabula _and _sujet_, but it's all a bit old hat (except that they did coin the marvellous term _ostranenie_, meaning 'making strange', or what we have come to know as defamiliarization). The most interesting thing about all this (quiet in the cheap seats) is that 'story' (the actual or purported events told of) can only be reconstructed from discourse - so _all that we really have is narrative_.


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## Inertia (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> No not resisting at all. However a massive amount of people have not been taught the difference . Me included .
> 
> That quote describes her to a tee .. the spittle flying out of her mouth as she ranted was not a pretty sight . A fairly regular occurrence too.
> 
> ...


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> Cue male CC user helping you out by providing an example of a man being described as raving...


[nervously searches own forum history]


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> No not resisting at all. However a massive amount of people have not been taught the difference . Me included .
> 
> That quote describes her to a tee .. the spittle flying out of her mouth as she ranted was not a pretty sight . A fairly regular occurrence too.
> 
> ...



How should I know? What's it got to do with the thread?

I'm asking you to attempt to unlearn what you were taught and consider how it might be otherwise. I didn't say it was easy, so there's no need for the defensiveness and diversion.


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> How should I know? What's it got to do with the thread?
> 
> I'm asking you to attempt to unlearn what you were taught and consider how it might be otherwise. I didn't say it was easy, so there's no need for the defensiveness and diversion.


it's as relevant as picking a specific word and attacking , at which point people do get defensive .


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## smutchin (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> No not resisting at all. However a massive amount of people have not been taught the difference . Me included .



You're the one who brought the phrase 'gender is a social construct' into the discussion - if you didn't understand what that means, why did you not make an effort to find out, rather than just dismissing it with a glib 'apparently'?

You protest that you've never been taught but @theclaud is making a pretty good attempt to explain it to you and you seem to have no interest in taking what she says on board. 

Learning is a lifelong process - if you want it to be.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> I was aware of a group of cyclists coming the other way when the bloke at the head of the group started with " don't be nervous on hills love - you won't get any better at them if you ride on your brakes like that"


That's exactly the attitude I am referring to, but lots of contributors to this thread have understood that the Belles are peed off because some male offered to help with a mechanical.
This was not the point of the op!


deptfordmarmoset said:


> Feels like some bloke told her to do it....


He asked very politely 
He's not just "some bloke"  



SteveF said:


> Feels like this thread should be in the Politics sub forum to me


Why? This is a cycling issue for sure, don't you think?


User13710 said:


> I have had the experience of cycling slowly up a hill when one of the group I was with (a bloke, natch) rode alongside me and said, 'Nice low gear, good girl,' and patted me on the back. A friend was riding up a hill on a cycling holiday when some bloke saw fit to say to her, 'You want to change down a bit, love, makes it less of a slog.' In all the years I've been cycling, no woman has ever, unsolicited, said anything approaching this in terms of uselessness and sheer patronising ego-trippery. Men in general simply have no idea how often things like this occur, and not just related to riding a bike. It wears you down and makes you start to lose your sense of humour, especially when men then deny and deny that this happens with any frequency.


Exactly.
I have learned much from other women cyclists (from @Telemark and @flyingfifi for example) but, for a start we knew each other, for a second the learning resulted by me asking, by observing, by them suggesting, not by imposing.



Bimble said:


> Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?


Well, it used to happen to me cycling solo maybe once a year, if that.
That was when I hardly saw any cyclists around, up until maybe 2 years ago. The increase of unsolicited male patronizing comments coincided with the increase of cyclists in the area.
Never used to happen on a Belles ride.
Now it seems to happen almost every time we are on a fun ride, I think we give the impression of a motley of hapless women that need to be enlightened on how to ride ... in a man's way!



User said:


> We have all understood that. The argument is that it is predominantly a man on woman thing.


Tbh, I'm beginning to change my mind after reading all the answers on this thread.
Could it be that man gets it a lot from man too?
That would not change my stance though: I am not having it no more, next guy to do this to me is gonna be at the receiving end of a very sharp (verbal) lashing.

Adult cycling for commuting and for fun is a "new thing" here.
I am one of those started cycle commuting in my late 40's seeking an alternative to public transport and for a personal challenge too.
The fun part of cycling for me came a couple of years later, when I discovered the newly formed Belles and the CC Ecosse rides.
Previously I was looking at drenched cyclists, all helmets and hi-viz, without really registering, vaguely thinking "how/why do they do it.
Of course, the Sunday club racers were obvious to me, they did it for sport, I did not know one would do both types of cycling.
The ones I saw were invariably all males, apart from the girls in University land.
It did not occur to me, then, that I, an ordinary middle aged woman, could go wherever, whenever I want on a bike.
I knew I had much to learn when I started cycling, but as an older woman I did not think " this cycling is a thing that mostly men do, can I do it too? "
It was a thing that mostly nobody did here, so we started all equal!
I feel, though, that a younger woman, not so self confident, could be put off cycling if a series of such patronizing episodes were the norm.


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> You're the one who brought the phrase 'gender is a social construct' into the discussion - if you didn't understand what that means, why did you not make an effort to find out, rather than just dismissing it with a glib 'apparently'?
> 
> You protest that you've never been taught but @theclaud is making a pretty good attempt to explain it to you and you seem to have no interest in taking what she says on board.
> 
> Learning is a lifelong process - if you want it to be.




No I learnt on here that it is just that . Weeks ago . 

The apparently was a highlighting of a " I never never knew that but I do know" 

Then TMN waded in with a condescending post in response to a post , which is a really good way to stop people doing something . 

I guess the written word doesn't come across as well as talking. 

Can you see what you are also doing ?


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

User said:


> What we haven't heard is the full chorus of blokes saying "it doesn't happen to me", or its cousin "any bloke tells me what to do.........."


 . . . followed by it happens just as much to men as it does to women so it is a non issue.


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

Bimble said:


> Just out of interest - this to the _women_ of CC BTW - how often does this sort of thing happen when you're out cycling? Is it and almost-every-time kind of thing, or regularly, or just occasionally / rarely?



Today, while I was cycling, no one offered me patronizing advice at all. They might have done, had they been able able to catch me. 

Last week, I overtook a male cyclist who was pedalling along at a leisurely pace. He immediately felt impelled to put the hammers down to get past me again. It wasn't an incidental variation of pace, as I'd been going a lot faster than him up to that point.

Today, whilst I was off the bike but had been at a meeting about cycling, I was questioned by a man about my lack of cycling helmet. When I told him I didn't believe in them he found it necessary to tell me an extremely dull anecdote which was supposed to illustrate the indispensable nature of plastic hats but did nothing of the kind except in his head. Within the hour two more men who already know my views on helmets had told me pointed anecdotes about helmets 'saving their [or someone else's] lives'. My presence at the meeting was as a cycling representative - i.e. someone whose knowledge and views about cycling were notionally respected. Two more male acquaintances ask me why I don't wear a helmet _every time I see them_, despite my having made it clear that I am not interested in their opinions on the matter.

The incident that most sticks in my head, though, is not a recent one. There is a traffic light on my route home at which my habit/tactic is to be at the front and wait ahead of the line, in primary. There are at least three reasons why I do this. I was once doing exactly this when I felt a tap on my shoulder. A man _had got out of his car_ to explain to me that it would be 'more accommodating' if I were to wait to the left, 'out of the way' of the cars. I'd have found it intimidating if I hadn't been too busy being astonished - he was a big man.


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## Slick (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> That's exactly the attitude I am referring to, but lots of contributors to this thread have understood that the Belles are peed off because some male offered to help with a mechanical.
> This was not the point of the op!
> 
> He asked very politely
> ...


It's not only younger women who can be "not so self confident". I can now recognise Mrs Slick's attitude in a lot of the stories and replies.


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## fossyant (10 Apr 2017)

There are nobbers in all aspects of life.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

I was cycling along the segregated riverfront, a guy behind me.
Like I was taught at cycle training, I saw him by looking behind.
Expecting him to overtake, me about to signal right, I look behind again.
Him: "you're ok, dear, don't worry, carry on"
I'm talking to myself now  yes, yes, I know I'm "ok", and I'm not your bloody "dear"


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## smutchin (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> The apparently was a highlighting of a " I never never knew that but I do know"



I see. Unfortunately, you undermined yourself by following it up with use of the words 'raving feminist' - not a well-chosen phrase in the context of a discussion about men's attitudes to women. 

You may believe it is an accurate description, but if there's one thing this thread highlights, it's that words and actions can be loaded with far more meaning than is apparent if you only ever take them at face value.


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## subaqua (10 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> I see. Unfortunately, you undermined yourself by following it up with use of the words 'raving feminist' - not a well-chosen phrase in the context of a discussion about men's attitudes to women.
> 
> You may believe it is an accurate description, but if there's one thing this thread highlights, it's that words and actions can be loaded with far more meaning than is apparent if you only ever take them at face value.



Aaah so that excuses the behaviour a prolific poster derides , yet displays. 

Do what I say not what I do ? Never a great tactic .


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> I have had the experience of cycling slowly up a hill when one of the group I was with (a bloke, natch) rode alongside me and said, 'Nice low gear, *good girl*,' and patted me on the back.



As a bit of an aside but sort of on the same subject, as you may remember we're currently trying to make a half decent job of raising a daughter. One of the things we're doing is to always praise the action, not the child. So we never say "good girl", and to me that phrase seems horribly patronising even when said to a one year old.


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> As a bit of an aside but sort of on the same subject, as you may remember we're currently trying to make a half decent job of raising a daughter. One of the things we're doing is to always praise the action, not the child. So we never say "good girl", and to me that phrase seems horribly patronising even when said to a one year old.


I remember my 3 year old son coming home from nursery and stating "girls are good, boys are naughty". I could have wept - not good for either gender.


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757138, member: 76"]A few guys cycling along a cycle path, going a bit, then they come across some other cyclists who are practicing cycling no-handed and wobbling around a bit. One of them suggests not wobbling over the path where other people may not realise what is happening and inadvertently cause a crash.



Possibly he had a female friend who would be interested in joining your group, but best he do one eh? The hi-viz/helmet comments, I am more than happy to concede this could be a sign of nobberdom.



In your cold heart do you have no room to believe this could have been a genuine attempt to be helpful?



She was on the wrong side of the path, this is the short of behaviour that gets cyclists a bad name, why did she not wait for a short while, or ring her bell/call ahead to warn the pedestrian. Nobbery ok, but from the cyclist on the wrong side of the path. Going through a red light is a sure sign of male arrogance, riding on the wrong side of a pedestrian path is perfectly ok and should never be challenged if the offender is a woman.[/QUOTE]
You weren't there.
But, of course, you know best.


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## growingvegetables (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> ... Could it be that man gets it a lot from man too? ...



Fwiw - I have not experienced the sort of crap you've been getting. Am I 99% certain that my daughters have experienced it? Yup. No question. [But I'll be honest - I'm on the lookout for this kind of crap as it affects them in (dare I say it?) more important parts of life? Their work? Their employment? And Lord knows, they have plenty such patronising crap. Many another story.]

Your question. "Do men get such crap from other men too?"

Yup - but I suspect there's an element of calculation involved on the part of the willy-waver. (Crucially, but not solely - the size of the other bloke! Basic male-on-male psychology. Willy-wavers don't want to waste a willy-wave - or worse, be confronted by a BIGGER willy-wave.)

Taking your question a step onwards. Can men bring relevant experience to bear? Hmmm. 

- Bottom line. The guys who can, probably won't. Sorry folks - but that's pretty basic in any understanding of bullying and its effects.

- But then there's the guys who do claim to have "relevant experience"? Hmmm, would it be uncharitable of me to speculate they may have an agenda? Of course it would be. I mean ... well ... somehow ... all that effort?

But damn it, the silly prats are dredging years and years of their memory (with all the problems THAT involves!), to find the odd, one-off, single incident in so many years of cycling, that so seared their psyche all those years ago, that they only now feel they can reveal it publically on CC! News for such lads - I'm a cynic, don't believe a word of it, ... hey, and your agenda is just a little transparent! 




Pat "5mph" said:


> That would not change my stance though: I am not having it no more, next guy to do this to me is gonna be at the receiving end of a very sharp (verbal) lashing..



Good.


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757138, member: 76"]
*In your cold heart* do you have no room to believe this could have been a genuine attempt to be helpful?
[/QUOTE]

Srsly??


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## growingvegetables (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757138, member: 76"]A few guys .....[/QUOTE]
FFS - you're two-thirds of the way through to New Zealand! You make Japanese Knotweed look friendly! Do you have no friends who will take that ******* spade out of your hands?

STOP DIGGING!


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## slowmotion (10 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> As a bit of an aside but sort of on the same subject, as you may remember we're currently trying to make a half decent job of raising a daughter. One of the things we're doing is to always praise the action, not the child. So we never say "good girl", and to me that phrase seems horribly patronising even when said to a one year old.


I sometimes say "Good man" to sixty year olds.


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## Crackle (10 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Srsly??


He left out callous.


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757138, member: 76"]She was on the wrong side of the path, this is the short of behaviour that gets cyclists a bad name, why did she not wait for a short while, or ring her bell/call ahead to warn the pedestrian. Nobbery ok, but from the cyclist on the wrong side of the path. Going through a red light is a sure sign of male arrogance, riding on the wrong side of a pedestrian path is perfectly ok and should never be challenged if the offender is a woman.[/QUOTE]
Riding on the wrong side of a path* is not the worst crime in the world. Neither is cycling through a red light. But doing the latter immediately after berating somebody for doing the former is top class twattery.



*or larking about riding no handed


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757138, member: 76"]In your cold heart do you have no room to believe this could have been a genuine attempt to be helpful?[/QUOTE]
My heart is more than cold, it's frozen: I have been cycle commuting, in Glasgow, for 6 winters now


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## SteveF (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Why? This is a cycling issue for sure, don't you think?



No, I think it's politics or the old SCP, cycling is incidental e.g. it could be about cycling or gardening, DIY, driving, cooking, bringing up children etc etc and can be applied to either gender


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> Mrs R says her worst experiences of being patronised occur in bike shops and in particular when we are both there together - sales assistants will talk to me while ignoring her, even though she's the one making the purchase.
> 
> She's still spitting from being advised by our plumber (who has never cycled in his life) to buy an electric bike so she can keep up with me......actually it's me who needs the motor.



A Visit from the Gas Man


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757159, member: 76"]Of course I was not there. So I am asking if there are any alternative interpretations of the events.[/QUOTE]
Of course, it is possible. But unlikely. Women know when they are being patronised - the reason being that it happens often and in all sorts of situations and the subtleties of communication and interaction is such that those who were there are best placed to judge the intentions behind that interraction. What we expect is that when such interactions are reported, we are believed.


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I sometimes say "Good man" to sixty year olds.


But not "good boy"?


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## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757190, member: 76"]Do you think that the comment could have come from someone who was trying to be genuinely helpful?[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to get drawn into this non-discussion. You know full well that was a ludicrously unfair thing to say to Pat.


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757184, member: 76"]Different incidents. The red light was the wobbly cycling. The berating was at a woman on the wrong side of the path.[/QUOTE]
My mistake but I think the point still stands.


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## summerdays (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757196, member: 76"]But we only have one side of the interaction. So, possibly the ones listed were meant in good faith, but Pat has misinterpreted them? You say women know when they are being patronised, but obviously any interaction has two sides, what if the intention was not to patronise?[/QUOTE]
It could have been made in the person's opinion to be helpful but perhaps they need to reassess whether it is actually patronising? And that was the purpose of the OP to make people think about how they may appear to others?


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757196, member: 76"]But we only have one side of the interaction. So, possibly the ones listed were meant in good faith, but Pat has misinterpreted them? You say women know when they are being patronised, but obviously any interaction has two sides, what if the intention was not to patronise?[/QUOTE]
Pat has not misinterpreted them. 
If the intention is not to patronise, then the men in question need to seriously examine their intentions and communication skills.
Is it ok for someone to be racist as long as they don't realise they are? Or is it up to all of us to be aware of the things we say and how we come across?


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

summerdays said:


> It could have been made in the person's opinion to be helpful but perhaps they need to reassess whether it is actually patronising? And that was the purpose of the OP to make people think about how they may appear to others?


Beat me to it!


----------



## theclaud (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757209, member: 76"]Oh right, it is a non-discussion because it may be that Pat was wrong? Admitting that is too painful isn't it?[/QUOTE]


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757211, member: 76"]And we know that for definite because.........[/QUOTE]
. . . . she was there and you weren't


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## growingvegetables (10 Apr 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> What we expect is that when such interactions are reported, we are believed.


^^^ This. Big time.


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## growingvegetables (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757214, member: 76"]I don't hear many calls for her to have thought through her little better.[/QUOTE]
There may be a very simple reason for that.

And it has NOTHING to do with @Pat "5mph".


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## slowmotion (10 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> But not "good boy"?


I'm not _au-fait_ with current trends in anti-ageism, but I think that a male of three score years might possibly be called "man" without feeling a huge sense of outrage. It's rather a long time ago for me, but don't seem to have been harbouring a massive grudge for all these decades about being called "a boy" when I was still in nappies.


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757214, member: 76"]But how has Pat come across to some of us on here? As a patronising woman who thinks it is ok to dump all men in a basket labelled arrogant nobber.

I don't hear many calls for her to have thought through her little better.[/QUOTE]
Dear god! 
I read her original post as a "light hearted but serious" way to explain what grinds her gears about a certain type of male way of being a dickhead.
Most women reading her post would be nodding in recognition in some way.
I expect most men would spend about 5 seconds examining their past interactions to make sure it didn't apply to them and then nodding with some sort of empathy.
We realise it is not all men.
We know that some women can be dickheads too but probably expressed in a different way
I also realise (second hand), as the mother of two young adult men, that men suffer from their own form of tedious macho interractions with dickheads in the name of "banter" which I am sure is just as tedious for some men - but in a different way.
I have no idea why I am even bothering to engage with this - I can only put it down to having had a couple of glasses of wine.


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

@User76 how come you take this personally?
If you're in the habit of dishing out unsolicited "help" to other cyclists, kindly desist, that's all I'm asking.
If you carry on then get clubbered by a flying bike pump don't blame me.


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## growingvegetables (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757232, member: 76"]... It becomes completely unacceptable after it has been pointed out and the behaviour is repeated[/QUOTE]

Absolute B@LL@X. It is unacceptable the moment it is uttered. END OF.


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## smutchin (10 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> Aaah so that excuses the behaviour a prolific poster derides , yet displays.
> 
> Do what I say not what I do ? Never a great tactic .



It's unfortunate that the humorous intent of TMN's didn't come across to you.


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## winjim (10 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I'm not _au-fait_ with current trends in anti-ageism, but I think that a male of three score years might possibly be called "man" without feeling a huge sense of outrage. It's rather a long time ago for me, but don't seem to have been harbouring a massive grudge for all these decades about being called "a boy" when I was still in nappies.


AFAIAA @User13710 is not still in nappies so may well object to being called "a girl". My daughter is a girl but she is not a "good" girl as she has not yet eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and is thus incapable of being "good". There's not really much of an overlap between the periods of time when it's appropriate to call somebody "good" and "girl".


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## Shaun (10 Apr 2017)

@User76 please. Pat wasn't having a go at _all_ men, just relating her experience and clearly aiming her request at condescending men to consider their motivations, actions and words as they had clearly frustrated her and her friends whilst out cycling.

Throughout the thread it is clear that most women don't feel most men are patronising, and indeed, where they need, want and ask for help and advice, will readily accept and appreciate it.

You, as well as every other bloke here on CycleChat will have come across at least _one_ guy in your lifetime who behaves the way Pat's describing (or worse), so it's not hard to accept that such unwanted and unwarranted attention or interference would be frustrating to Pat, her friends, and other female cyclists.


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## slowmotion (10 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> AFAIAA @User13710 is not still in nappies so may well object to being called "a girl". My daughter is a girl but she is not a "good" girl as she has not yet eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and is thus incapable of being "good". There's not really much of an overlap between the periods of time when it's appropriate to call somebody "good" and "girl".


I was commenting on your reluctance to call your one year old "good girl".
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Let's leave it.


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## Inertia (10 Apr 2017)




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## classic33 (10 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I'm not _au-fait_ with current trends in anti-ageism, but I think that a male of three score years might possibly be called "man" without feeling a huge sense of outrage. It's rather a long time ago for me, but don't seem to have been harbouring a massive grudge for all these decades about being called "a boy" when I was still in nappies.


We'd still say nay lad/nay lass if we thought they'd done something wrong, whatever the age.


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## classic33 (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> @User76 how come you take this personally?
> If you're in the habit of dishing out unsolicited "help" to other cyclists, kindly desist, that's all I'm asking.
> If you carry on then get clubbered by a flying bike pump don't blame me.


Not the bike pump!


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## deptfordmarmoset (10 Apr 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> . . . . she was there and you weren't


...and the effect was that she and, very very likely, others in the group felt patronised. The cause of this was a man/men offering unnecessary and uninvited advice/criticism. It is hypothetically possible that there was no conscious intention to patronise. But in that case, unconscious patronising still went on.


classic33 said:


> Not the bike pump!


Agreed, the pump's more valuable. Besides, the target appears to have little self inflation problems....


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757247, member: 76"]But I am not in the habit of doing that. Why do you default to believing the worst in people?[/QUOTE]
Eh, two posts ago "that" (giving unsolicited advice) was being "helpful", now you say the same thing is "the worst in people"?

[QUOTE 4757247, member: 76"]And why the constant 'jokes' about throwing things at people? Is it really funny to threaten to throw things at people?[/QUOTE]
I am Italian: sometimes our fiery temperament takes over.
One warning, two warnings, three ... then you get clubbered, make no mistake


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## Pat "5mph" (10 Apr 2017)

Anyway, let's all have a good night's sleep, I am on late tomorrow, no alarm, yiuppie!!!


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## Julia9054 (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Anyway, let's all have a good night's sleep, I am on late tomorrow, no alarm, yiuppie!!!


Lucky you! I am in school running a holiday GCSE revision session.


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## classic33 (10 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Anyway, *let's all have a good night's sleep*, I am on late tomorrow, no alarm, yiuppie!!!


Lucky you.


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## classic33 (11 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757288, member: 9609"]So how far can any of yous get ? and can you do stuff like go round bends with no hands yet? 
Inspired by this thread I was giving it a go tonight, massive lack of confidence I was only managing about 20 yards, going to give it a better go the morrow. So if i'm not back in here the morrow night then its all your fault as I have come a cropper doing hands free.[/QUOTE]
On the flat, round here, bends included a couple of miles.


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## subaqua (11 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757288, member: 9609"]So how far can any of yous get ? and can you do stuff like go round bends with no hands yet? 
Inspired by this thread I was giving it a go tonight, massive lack of confidence I was only managing about 20 yards, going to give it a better go the morrow. So if i'm not back in here the morrow night then its all your fault as I have come a cropper doing hands free.[/QUOTE]
It's easier with panniers .....


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## summerdays (11 Apr 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> Lucky you! I am in school running a holiday GCSE revision session.


I wish I could get my son to attend those.... he just thinks they aren't aimed at him and he's doing fine..... (gaming beyond my bedtime last night), . I need to borrow @Pat "5mph" 's pump


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## summerdays (11 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757214, member: 76"]But how has Pat come across to some of us on here? As a patronising woman who thinks it is ok to dump all men in a basket labelled arrogant nobber.

I don't hear many calls for her to have thought through her little better.[/QUOTE]
She came across as someone who had been riled to the point that she wanted to let off steam. Most people here know her character and would have seen a glint of humour in there too The title has been changed and she has said it's not all men, why continue to try to browbeat her where I'm not actually sure I understand what you are seeking from this thread? 

How have your responses been better than any perceived mistakes in the first post?


----------



## fossyant (11 Apr 2017)

summerdays said:


> I wish I could get my son to attend those.... he just thinks they aren't aimed at him and he's doing fine..... (gaming beyond my bedtime last night), . I need to borrow @Pat "5mph" 's pump



My lad is going to his sessions. Not gaming until after.


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## Dogtrousers (11 Apr 2017)

Jeez. Another four pages. @User76 still pushing the same silly "Pat says ALL men are bad, waaah, I'm being discriminated against" line that was debunked on about p2.

I give up.


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## theclaud (11 Apr 2017)

User14044mountain said:


> One comment (from Mrs R) and a trite question from me.
> 
> One of the key advantages of the narrative form is that it illustrates acts of oppression from the perspective of the oppressed and it also challenges the perspective of the dominant class.
> 
> BTW did either Bakhtin or Derrida ride a bike?



I dunno, but Barthes was run over by a laundry van.


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## hopless500 (11 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4757214, member: 76"]But how has Pat come across to some of us on here? As a patronising woman who thinks it is ok to dump all men in a basket labelled arrogant nobber.

I don't hear many calls for her to have thought through her little better.[/QUOTE]
Those who have taken it that way appear to be lacking basic comprehension skills.


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## Jody (11 Apr 2017)

Julia9054 said:


> I remember my 3 year old son coming home from nursery and stating "girls are good, boys are naughty". I could have wept - not good for either gender.



My 3 year old said exactly the same last week when I picked him up from nursery. No idea where it came from but it made me sad as he is such a well behaved and loving little lad. Shame it gets drilled into them from such a young age.


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## jonny jeez (11 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Tbh, I'm beginning to change my mind after reading all the answers on this thread.
> Could it be that man gets it a lot from man too?
> 
> .



I think so. This has been and is my point. I don't deny that sexism exists, I don't deny that these men were patronising but I genuinely think that, in this instance they are not entwined. These men are just idiots (and possibly sexist, bigoted narrow minded) but would say the same to me as they would to you. They cant help themselves, its part of their coping mechanism and is probably all about their self esteem. they are the type of person who cannot help but read you their riding CV when you stop for a coffee, listing all their achievements...when all you wanted to know was "is this seat taken?"

I shall join you in snapping at the next idiot who feels they have some right to impart unsolicited advice...I have worked out my response (I'm awful at coming up with quick comebacks in the moment) I'm gonna go with "I already have a Mum, I don't need another thanks."

J


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## Spinney (11 Apr 2017)

Jody said:


> My 3 year old said exactly the same last week when I picked him up from nursery. No idea where it came from but it made me sad as he is such a well behaved and loving little lad. Shame it gets drilled into them from such a young age.


Complain? Blatant sex/gender discrimination - if they'd said something like 'white children are good, brown children are naughty' they'd be up in court...


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## srw (11 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Could it be that man gets it a lot from man too?


Honestly, from my experience, no.

In my 20 years of commuting and fewer years of group and solo leisure riding I've had only one bit of unsolicited advice I can remember. Someone told me in a thick German accent that my saddle was too high and it was "bad for your balls".


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## Jody (11 Apr 2017)

Spinney said:


> Complain? Blatant sex/gender discrimination - if they'd said something like 'white children are good, brown children are naughty' they'd be up in court...



Completely agree but its difficult as he won't say where he heard it. It could have been one of the other children that has been told that by their parents. Iv'e heard it said to kids before.


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## benb (11 Apr 2017)

So to summarise:
See someone with a puncture, stop and say "Have you got all the tools you need? Do you need a hand?" or (as I have done, to both men and women) "I just wanted to let you know your back light has run out of batteries" are both absolutely fine.

Say to someone "You're doing it wrong, your saddle is too low and your cadence is too slow, try this..." and then a load of patronising drivel is not fine, and nor is sanctimonious rubbish about cycling no-handed.

Everyone got that?


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## Dogtrousers (11 Apr 2017)

benb said:


> Everyone got that?


I admire your optimism


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## The Brewer (11 Apr 2017)

Probably guilty of a few of them, sorry


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## jonny jeez (11 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Sorry chaps, it's still sexism. Sexist behaviour arises from a sense of power and entitlement. Men in general feel powerful and entitled. If women in general felt equally as powerful and entitled, they would behave in this way just as much but, as we have been hearing, they do not. Sorry not to be able to join in making you feel all that much better about this, and all.


Shame about the last bit of this post, which is totally unessacery and adds nothing but conflict...still. I agree, these idiots are most likely sexist, I did say as much. However I suspect they would make these comment to any Gender...its part of their makeup.

As for the reversal, I"ve provided anecdotal evidence that women do the same to men. As I have I said before the only rider that has ever physically contacted me and tried to push me or instruct me to ride into a daft position, was a woman.

I posted as such on here when it happened, I shall. Search my posts to find a link.


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## Markymark (11 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Quick straw poll.
> 
> 1. How many women have been subject to patronising critique from men of their cycle craft whilst out minding their own business?
> 
> ...





jonny jeez said:


> Shame about the last bit of this post, which is totally unessacery and adds nothing but conflict...still. I agree, these idiots are most likely sexist, I did say as much. However I suspect they would make these comment to any Gender...its part of their makeup.
> 
> As for the reversal, I"ve provided anecdotal evidence that women do the same to men. As I have I said before the only rider that has ever physically contacted me and tried to push me or instruct me to ride into a daft position, was a woman.
> 
> I posted as such on here when it happened, I shall. Search my posts to find a link.



To quote myself...I don't expect the ratio to be ALL:NONE, but more likely MOST:FEW. The latter still demonstrates the underlying problem.


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## Inertia (11 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Shame about the last bit of this post, which is totally unessacery and adds nothing but conflict...still. I agree, these idiots are most likely sexist, I did say as much. However I suspect they would make these comment to any Gender...its part of their makeup.


Thats where I would disagree with you, I think a subset of that group would behave the same to anyone but most wouldnt.


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## Ming the Merciless (11 Apr 2017)

nickyboy said:


> Not sure what the problem was. I'm always grateful for offers of help if I've got some bike problem, even if I don't need any help. I also have no problem with encouragement either. Last weekend up a really tough hill I was passed by a couple of young guys who said "good effort" as they passed me. To me that was just their appreciation of the effort of an older and heavier cyclist than themselves. I would say something similar if I passed someone gurning up a hill too
> 
> I will always offer help (in a non-gender specific way ) to any cyclist who I think may be in need, be it mechanicals, navigation or whatever. But I've never given "advice" to anyone except maybe a mate or two on their MTBs to get the seat up a bit



The problem is the attitude of I know best and ignoring you when you tell them you don't need their help. Especially when they've seen you already decline several offering of help immediately before theirs. In fact you have far more experience at fixing stuff than they do.

No problem with offers of help, but learn to recognise a no in response when you get it. I.e. Just listen for once.


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## jonny jeez (11 Apr 2017)

Inertia said:


> Thats where I would disagree with you, I think a subset of that group would behave the same to anyone but most wouldn't.


Fair enough. I wouldn't say I disagree either ...perhaps this is where this thread is being challenged. Its a subset of a group, I'd call that subset idiots.

Edit...sorry I've realised that I read this the wrong way round.
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps a subset does behave just as badly to anyone and that I have witnessed a subset.

I'm not convinced that this is the case but am happy to admit that its possible


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## nickyboy (11 Apr 2017)

As Ride Leader, I intend to patronise all and sundry on the Manchester to Llandudno ride. If you're coming, expect unsolicited advice on saddle height, cadence and pump choice as an absolute minimum. My advice will not be gender-specific however. Everyone will get it for free

I'm hoping to make it to Rhyl before being chucked in the sea but I've got a feeling I could be having a close encounter with Budworth Mere


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## Inertia (11 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Fair enough. I wouldn't say I disagree either ...perhaps this is where this thread is being challenged. Its a subset of a group, I'd call that subset idiots.
> 
> Edit...sorry I've realised that I read this the wrong way round.
> Perhaps you are right. Perhaps a subset does behave just as badly to anyone and that I have witnessed a subset.
> ...


Well I admit the other way round is possible, what I have heard leads me to the opposite conclusion. Contrary to your experience, while on a ride noone has ever told me how to ride or barged in and interrupted me if I was fixing something. I have had enquiries as to whether I needed anything but Ive never had to go any further than; no, thanks for asking.

Given the experiences female colleagues and friends have related to me during other areas of their life that I haven't experienced either; I have no difficulty believing the behaviour extends to cycling.

I dont think I can prove it to you though but I think at least we can see each others side and I do think the OP was worthwhile if it only lets us think about our own behaviour. I dont agree with the new title that its only to all condesending male chavinists. I think anyone could exhibit some of that behaviour and just think they were being helpful. It doesnt hurt to reflect on our own behaviour and consider we may jump to the wrong conclusions in our 'helpfulness'


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## Heltor Chasca (11 Apr 2017)

As a gender tolerant individual who has lived half a life (2+ decades) in a very chauvinist culture, much of this doesn't surprise me. All I want for both my daughters is a fair crack at life. We are getting there, but hell's teeth we are a long way off. Keep going.

As far as patronising goes: What the hell is up with a huge chunk of brits? You can't walk a puppy down the street without every second nosy tonsil handing out free dog-handling advice. Piss off! I'll drive my pup how I like. 

Second Audax I ever did, a woman scoffed at me for doing it on a touring bike. 'You're making life very hard for yourself aren't you?' Says she. Same stuck up fanny fart who bonked at the 80km mark. Hah! 

Fourth Audax I did in my life, I heard some snarky comments from a sportive-looking-knob chuckling at my rather large saddle bag. Yeah but I packed my lunch and didn't have to queue for soggy salad and snot bread rolls at the café did I?

Still can't put my pants on the right way round. DON'T tell me how. I'll work it out ok?


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## winjim (11 Apr 2017)

Heltor Chasca said:


> As a gender tolerant individual who has lived half a life (2+ decades) in a very chauvinist culture, much of this doesn't surprise me. All I want for both my daughters is a fair crack at life. We are getting there, but hell's teeth we are a long way off. Keep going.
> 
> As far as patronising goes: What the hell is up with a huge chunk of brits? You can't walk a puppy down the street without every second nosy tonsil handing out free dog-handling advice. Piss off! I'll drive my pup how I like.
> 
> ...


I've only even taken part in one Audax, and that was a short one at 100km, but I thought they were specifically designed for people on touring bikes with massive saddlebags.


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## theclaud (11 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Shame about the last bit of this post, which is totally unecesary.


I find it both necessary and important.


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## Pat "5mph" (11 Apr 2017)

nickyboy said:


> As Ride Leader, I intend to patronise all and sundry on the Manchester to Llandudno ride.


Agreed!
Unsolicited advice from my ride leaders I take gladly, because when I joined I agreed by default to be led.
When I'm the ride leader (rarely, due to my, ahem, touring speed) I will give advise if asked or if riders are struggling.
What I'm trying to convey here is the cheek of complete strangers that barge into our group to preach us; not wanting to help with mechanicals, not wanting to give us directions, but actually telling us what to wear, how to ride.
As I said, if this continues to happen, I'll be needing bailed out from the Polis station


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## slowmotion (12 Apr 2017)

I'm still a bit confused. I chased after a female rider on the Earls Court Road recently because the straps from her back-pack almost dangled down to the rear hub and she would have come to serious harm if they caught in her back wheel. I didn't give any kind of lecture, just suggested that she tie them up.
Now, suppose that I spotted her riding with a saddle that was ridiculously low. Should I have very gently suggested that it's more fun and less effort to ride with the saddle a bit higher, or would I have been a patronising, sexist monster?

I would have given the same advice if she was a he, BTW.


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## summerdays (12 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I'm still a bit confused. I chased after a female rider on the Earls Court Road recently because the straps from her back-pack almost dangled down to the rear hub and she would have come to serious harm if they caught in her back wheel. I didn't give any kind of lecture, just suggested that she tie them up.
> Now, suppose that I spotted her riding with a saddle that was ridiculously low. Should I have very gently suggested that it's more fun and less effort to ride with the saddle a bit higher, or would I have been a patronising, sexist monster?
> 
> I would have given the same advice if she was a he, BTW.


I wouldn't just throw in a passing comment about the saddle, not without some kind of conversation... so at a set of lights perhaps? Whereas a dangling strap, hanging off pannier, some imminent danger would be OK? But that's how I would do it. 

Unless you strike up a conversation how are you going to find out if there is a reason? I have a lowered saddle on icy days, or if may knee is giving me some pain or when I've put on my thick boots and I can't be bothered to adjust it from the normal position that fits all my other shoes.


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## furball (12 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I'm still a bit confused. I chased after a female rider on the Earls Court Road recently because the straps from her back-pack almost dangled down to the rear hub and she would have come to serious harm if they caught in her back wheel. I didn't give any kind of lecture, just suggested that she tie them up.
> Now, suppose that I spotted her riding with a saddle that was ridiculously low. Should I have very gently suggested that it's more fun and less effort to ride with the saddle a bit higher, or would I have been a patronising, sexist monster?
> 
> I would have given the same advice if she was a he, BTW.


If that had been me I would have been grateful if you had alerted me to something that was a danger to me and was out of my sight. If however you dared to comment on my bike I think I would tell you where to go and it probably would contain offensive language.


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## Jody (12 Apr 2017)

furball said:


> ...... If however you dared to comment on my bike I think I would tell you where to go and it probably would contain offensive language.



or you could just decline the offer on what's being said to you. If it continues then tell them where to go


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## jonny jeez (12 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I'm still a bit confused. I chased after a female rider on the Earls Court Road recently because the straps from her back-pack almost dangled down to the rear hub and she would have come to serious harm if they caught in her back wheel. I didn't give any kind of lecture, just suggested that she tie them up.
> Now, suppose that I spotted her riding with a saddle that was ridiculously low. Should I have very gently suggested that it's more fun and less effort to ride with the saddle a bit higher, or would I have been a patronising, sexist monster?
> 
> I would have given the same advice if she was a he, BTW.


I think if its a fact...like "your back tyre is flat mate" or "rear caliper is open" then perhaps you can offer unsolicited warnings.

But subjective stuff, who cares what you think, I'm happy just leave me alone...if I want subjective advice ill seek it


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## furball (12 Apr 2017)

Jody said:


> or you could just decline the offer on what's being said to you.


I could but probably wouldn't.


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## Racing roadkill (12 Apr 2017)

You've encountered 'Allez man'. Or possibly 'Charlie the 2012 chopper'. 'Tis the season for them.


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## slowmotion (13 Apr 2017)

I was driving the van up the M1 a couple of weeks ago. An artic. behind me started giving me the full headlight flashing treatment......just as the steering felt all wrong. Luckily, I got onto the hard shoulder before the tyre went pop. I was grateful to the lorry driver. I didn't feel that he wanted to score any points or feel "all superior". I would have been delighted if somebody at the last service station had said " that tyre's a bit flat".

Isn't Pride one of the Seven Deadly Sins?


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## Dogtrousers (13 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I would have been delighted if somebody at the last service station had said " that tyre's a bit flat".


Would you have been equally delighted at the last service station if someone had said: "You don't want to be driving a van like that. That's a rubbish van. Get a better one. And look at that air freshener hanging from your mirror. It's makes you look like an idiot. Is that a cup of tea? Fool. You shouldn't drink tea when driving, coffee is better. And wear better shoes. Those shoes you are wearing are dangerous for driving, you need special EZ-grip shoes for best contact with the pedals. Why aren't you taking the A41 via Biceseter, are you some kind of moron?"


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## Markymark (13 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Would you have been equally delighted at the last service station if someone had said: "You don't want to be driving a van like that. That's a rubbish van. Get a better one. And look at that air freshener hanging from your mirror. It's makes you look like an idiot. Is that a cup of tea? Fool. You shouldn't drink tea when driving, coffee is better. And wear better shoes. Those shoes you are wearing are dangerous for driving, you need special EZ-grip shoes for best contact with the pedals. Why aren't you taking the A41 via Biceseter, are you some kind of moron?"


Quite. Or patted him on the back for driving so well considering his age.


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## arch684 (13 Apr 2017)

What we have here is failure to communicate some men you just can't reach


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## Lee_M (13 Apr 2017)

I was told once that I should be spinning up a climb instead of grinding. 

Should I have felt patronised? or does that only happen if the advice is given to a woman?

Some people give advice, some dont
Some want help, some dont 

I can't believe this thread is still going after 26 pages


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## velovoice (13 Apr 2017)

Lee_M said:


> I can't believe this thread is still going after 26 pages


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## Lee_M (13 Apr 2017)

velovoice said:


> View attachment 347171



well quite :-) 

On the other hand we have women in our club who are quite happy to stand back when they get a puncture and let others do the fix, should we be helping or should we be helping them be independent?
To be clear, we also have women perfectly capable and willing to do their own fixes and also men who couldn't spell "tyre lever".

and to be really clear, we have women who can ride rings round me and disappear up hills like a rat up a drain pipe - I have no problem with strong women (my sisters were both olympic athletes, I grew up with being the least capable sports person!!)


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## Jody (13 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I was driving the van up the M1 a couple of weeks ago. An artic. behind me started giving me the full headlight flashing treatment......just as the steering felt all wrong. Luckily, I got onto the hard shoulder before the tyre went pop. I was grateful to the lorry driver. I didn't feel that he wanted to score any points or feel "all superior". I would have been delighted if somebody at the last service station had said " that tyre's a bit flat".


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## mjr (13 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> To quote myself...I don't expect the ratio to be ALL:NONE, but more likely MOST:FEW. The latter still demonstrates the underlying problem.


Doesn't the current imbalance of cycling (2:1 male:female in the 2014/15 Active People Survey) make it almost certain that's going to be MOST:FEW? And the number of men getting unsolicited patronising advice from other men would be even more than that "MOST"?

I agree with @jonny jeez (for a change!) - it's an idiot thing, not a male thing and the OP was very wrong to write "Dear male cyclists" rather than something like "Dear idiot cyclists". I've had bizarre advice from all sorts, as well as good advice sometimes, including from a few people IRL who are on here.  If you want to be almost certain of receiving some truly stupid comments, even from fairly inexpert riders who you may see do some odd things, turn up to an organised century ride in ordinary clothing on an old "light sports" three-speed!


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## Wobblers (13 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Doesn't the current imbalance of cycling (2:1 male:female in the 2014/15 Active People Survey) make it almost certain that's going to be MOST:FEW? And the number of men getting unsolicited patronising advice from other men would be even more than that "MOST"?
> 
> I agree with @jonny jeez (for a change!) - it's an idiot thing, not a male thing and the OP was very wrong to write "Dear male cyclists" rather than something like "Dear idiot cyclists". I've had bizarre advice from all sorts, as well as good advice sometimes, including from a few people IRL who are on here.  If you want to be almost certain of receiving some truly stupid comments, even from fairly inexpert riders who you may see do some odd things, turn up to an organised century ride in ordinary clothing on an old "light sports" three-speed!



No. We've had just about every woman on this thread comment on how this has happened to them (and also commented that this happens to them in other areas of their life). On the other hand, very few men have said that it happens to them: it certainly never has to me. If this were due to just a small population of bellends (as good a description as any, I feel), you'd expect that both men and women would be patronised in this manner equally. The experiences recounted in the last 26 pages are very stark, and very clear - it's women who overwhelmingly have to put up with this.


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## jefmcg (13 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> I was driving the van up the M1 a couple of weeks ago. An artic. behind me started giving me the full headlight flashing treatment......just as the steering felt all wrong. Luckily, I got onto the hard shoulder before the tyre went pop. I was grateful to the lorry driver. I didn't feel that he wanted to score any points or feel "all superior". I would have been delighted if somebody at the last service station had said " that tyre's a bit flat".


Yes, the problem is that the "helpful" comments drown out the actually helpful comments.

Once a MVM in the far lane started shouting things at me. I couldn't make out what he was saying, but I didn't need to. He wanted me to know that he wanted to have sex with me, or did not want to have sex with me. Perhaps he wanted to share his opinion on cycling in general or my cycling in particular or where cyclists belong. I'd heard them all, many times. But as I was raising my hand to respond with a suitable gesture, I finally made out the words "You're rear tyre is flat". Which it was. Quickly modified the gesture to a thumbs up, and got off the road to sort it.

It is literally the only time a shout from a van has been helpful. If you had had similar experiences on the motorway, with artics often flashing at you, you would have responded differently.


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## jefmcg (13 Apr 2017)

McWobble said:


> it's women who overwhelmingly have to put up with this.


And @User76


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## Dogtrousers (13 Apr 2017)

I've just remembered, I was once informed that my rear lights were not switched on (it was dark at the time) by another cyclist. That cyclist was ... dum dum dummmm .... female. 

(And also occasionally active on this forum, but I've not seen her for a while)

I know that's utterly irrelevant to the subject at hand but I thought I'd let you know.

I don't think I've ever been on the receiving end of opinionated unasked-for cycling advice. But it's always possible that I have but I just didn't bother listening to what the other person was saying. A drunk man on a train did once ask me what my best bike was, after looking at my pride and joy and deciding that I really must have a better one at home.


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## jonny jeez (13 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Neither can I. Still, to be fair, the only reason it is is because people keep starting it back up by posting different variations on the same point "but it happens to men as well" where that point has been dealt with several times over.


Clearly not all the reasons people have felt motivated to reply to this thread had been addressed. You may believe they have. If they actually had then why was the thread title changed.

This isn't only about some men defending sexism, it isn't only about some men complaining that "it happens to us all" there was more going on in this thread than one thing that you would like to feel has been "dealt with".


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## Pat "5mph" (13 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> the OP was very wrong to write "Dear male cyclists" rather than something like "Dear idiot cyclists".


When it happens that an unknown to me woman gives me unsolicited, random advice while I'm riding my bike I will post about it.


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## mjr (13 Apr 2017)

McWobble said:


> No. We've had just about every woman on this thread comment on how this has happened to them (and also commented that this happens to them in other areas of their life). On the other hand, very few men have said that it happens to them: it certainly never has to me.


I think the relative difference between male/female in propensity to comment here if it's happened to you is due to various social pressures, plus the rather one-sided thread title.


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## AndyRM (13 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> And @User76



You owe me a keyboard.


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## jefmcg (13 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Dear male cyclists" rather than something like "Dear idiot cyclists".


Dunning Kruger. Idiots don't know they are idiots, so they think will it doesn't apply to them.

BTW, men who complained about the original title: If you go to the gents in a pub, and there was a sign saying "Men, please refrain from urinating in the mop sink" would you storm out (after arranging your clothing) and complain to the manager "I'm a man and I would never pee in the sink. I'm insulted by that sign and want you to remove it immediately!", or would you just think to yourself "That doesn't apply to me, it applies to men who may urinate in the sink" and go about your day?


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## mjr (13 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> BTW, men who complained about the original title: If you go to the gents in a pub, and there was a sign saying "Men, please refrain from urinating in the mop sink" would you storm out ...


http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/weak-analogy/ - it might work better if the sign wasn't in a customarily men-only area (making the addressee understandable and arguably redundant), but even then, it's a bit weak. To be like the OP, the sign would need to be more like "Dear men, A small notice to inform you that your attitude is making us cross. From you, wearing a wetsuit on a dry day, helmetted, urinating in the mop sink, we don't want to hear comments about where we urinate." I'd expect that would annoy more people and even then, it's not quite as bad.


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## jefmcg (13 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Who wants to read an essay when they need to piss?


If it's above the mop sink, you can read it while you are pissing 

[QUOTE 4760250, member: 9609"]Maroon or Magenta[/QUOTE]

I don't know what this means.


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## Dogtrousers (13 Apr 2017)

What's a mop sink?

Edit. Its ok. I've looked them up.

Hmmm. They do look a bit like urinals. I wonder .... (dredges memory for unusual looking urinals)


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## jonny jeez (13 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> What's the other thing then?


Have a read through the pages and work it out for yourself.


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## arch684 (13 Apr 2017)

Climbing a local hill out of the saddle and gasping for breath a guy come along side of me and gives me this gem of advice.If you stay seated and select a low gear and spin more you will use less energy.Thanks for that mate but this is a single speed


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## Spinney (13 Apr 2017)

arch684 said:


> Climbing a local hill out of the saddle and gasping for breath a guy come along side of me and gives me this gem of advice.If you stay seated and select a low gear and spin more you will use less energy.Thanks for that mate but this is a single speed


He was wrong anyway - you may use less force as you spin, but you have to turn the pedals more often so the sum of total distance moved x force exerted is the same.
Sadly, it sounds like you didn't have enough spare breath to tell him that...


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## jefmcg (13 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/weak-analogy/ - it might work better if the sign wasn't in a customarily men-only area (making the addressee understandable and arguably redundant), but even then, it's a bit weak. To be like the OP, the sign would need to be more like "Dear men, A small notice to inform you that your attitude is making us cross. From you, wearing a wetsuit on a dry day, helmetted, urinating in the mop sink, we don't want to hear comments about where we urinate." I'd expect that would annoy more people and even then, it's not quite as bad.


Look. No where in the original posting did she say all men do anything. The original title was "males" not "all males" and in the text she just lists the things she doesn't want men to do. If you don't do those things, then everyone should be happy. If you do do those things, then yes the letter is relevant to you. 

But I can improve the analogy, if you like. Let's make it a unisex toilet, in a coffee shop I guess. Same sign. Now women could be squatting in a public sink rather than waiting for a cubicle to become free, but that's pretty embarrassing and humiliating for most women, but there are some men that like to treat the world as their urinal, and men could use the sink without disrobing, so I would guess that if someone was urinating in the sink, it was going to be men. Would you complain about that sign? Or believe it somehow gave women permission to piss in the sink?


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## jonny jeez (13 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> Eh? I don't think there's a stated problem that hasn't been addressed adequately in this thread, or at least demonstrated many times over in an amusing way by the utter denseness of many male contributors. But if you are going to complain that something's been missed, and then refuse to say what it is, I'm not seeing how anyone can begin to help you, should they want to bother that is.


Perhaps actually read my response to Adrian and have another think.

Am I asking for your help?

Am I complaining about something?

Am I suggesting it hasn't been dealt with?

Am I suggesting its one thing?

Or dont bother and just jump to a conclusion.


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## Dogtrousers (13 Apr 2017)

Having looked at the design of some mop sinks, I think placing one in an area where it is likely to be used as a urinal is just asking for trouble. And what's wrong with just using a bucket? To do the mopping with I mean ...


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## AndyRM (13 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Look. No where in the original posting did she say all men do anything. The original title was "males" not "all males" and in the text she just lists the things she doesn't want men to do. If you don't do those things, then everyone should be happy. If you do do those things, then yes the letter is relevant to you.
> 
> But I can improve the analogy, if you like. Let's make it a unisex toilet, in a coffee shop I guess. Same sign. Now women could be squatting in a public sink rather than waiting for a cubicle to become free, but that's pretty embarrassing and humiliating for most women, but there are some men that like to treat the world as their urinal, and men could use the sink without disrobing, so I would guess that if someone was urinating in the sink, it was going to be men. Would you complain about that sign? Or believe it somehow gave women permission to piss in the sink?



I'll need a monitor now too...


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## Shaun (14 Apr 2017)

Can we leave the washroom analogy behind and bring the thread back on topic please; which is generally about women cyclists having to deal with being patronised by male cyclists (_in excess of their male cycling counterparts_).

Thanks,
Shaun


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## slowmotion (14 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> If you haven't grasped this distinction after 26 pages, slowmotion, then you're probably never going to realise how condescending you might be, or when you are being patronised yourself. Ah well.


If you can point out where I have been patronising or condescending, I would be grateful. Do you suffer from an overactive imagination?


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## velovoice (14 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> If you can point out where I have been patronising or condescending, I would be grateful. Do you suffer from an overactive imagination?


I'm afraid that post rather proves exactly TMN's point. 
Why, when _some _women express outrage/anger at everyday sexism, do _some _men continue to dismiss this as some kind of hysteria?


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## ufkacbln (14 Apr 2017)

velovoice said:


> I'm afraid that post rather proves exactly TMN's point.
> Why, when _some _women express outrage/anger at everyday sexism, do _some _men continue to dismiss this as some kind of hysteria?



It is not dismissed as hysteria, there are issues, there are problems, and no-one denies it.

However if that is to be dealt with it needs to be discussed and the outright dismissal of any male contribution is unhelpful and divisive. People may find that annoying and wish to challenge the insinuations and allegations 

Pure stereotyping and name calling helps neither side in this debate


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## Dan B (14 Apr 2017)

slowmotion said:


> If you can point out where I have been patronising or condescending, I would be grateful


In the sentence following this one


> Do you suffer from an overactive imagination?


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## Tin Pot (14 Apr 2017)

Having grown up sitting on the laps of those running feminist meetings I have struggled to come to terms with masculine influence on society, but what I've learned is that this and all similar issues are only resolved if people just stop doing it.

Bickering with women about it doesn't solve it.

Not doing it does.

If your not doing it, then that's positive action enough and get on with your life as an example to others. Just check your prejudices once in a while, as we all have them.


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## Inertia (14 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> It is not dismissed as hysteria, there are issues, there are problems, and no-one denies it.
> 
> However if that is to be dealt with it needs to be discussed and the *outright dismissal of any male contribution is unhelpful and divisive.* People may find that annoying and wish to challenge the insinuations and allegations
> 
> Pure stereotyping and name calling helps neither side in this debate


I think the dismissal here seems to be by people who think its not more of a problem for women. They arent dismissing the problem per se but they dismiss it as something woman suffer from more or that males seem to do it more.

If I were to cut it to the bones the dismissal goes someting like this. "women seem to think they are being excessivly targetted by this, while I think it happens to everyone equally"


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## Markymark (14 Apr 2017)

Inertia said:


> I think the dismissal here seems to be by people who think its not more of a problem for women. They arent dismissing the problem per se but they dismiss it as someting woman suffer from more or that males seem to do it more.
> 
> If I were to cut it to the bones the dismissal goes someting like this. "women seem to think they are being excessivly targetted by this, while I think it happens to everyone equally"


Quite. And on top of that, some women suggesting to men to stop it is as bad as women being wholesale patronised and held back in so many aspects in life.


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## growingvegetables (14 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> ... the outright dismissal of any male contribution is unhelpful and divisive. People may find that annoying and wish to challenge the insinuations and allegations
> 
> Pure stereotyping and name calling helps neither side in this debate


[facepalm][/facepalm]


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## Pat "5mph" (14 Apr 2017)

Inertia said:


> They arent dismissing the problem per se but they dismiss it as something woman suffer from more or that males seem to do it more.


Well said @Inertia.
I just wrote an long post because I remembered more stuff that makes me want to throw my pump, but it has been deleted in the spirit of the Easter dove, bringer of peace 
Wishing you all a peaceful time over the Easter weekend


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## Sheffield_Tiger (14 Apr 2017)

velovoice said:


> I'm afraid that post rather proves exactly TMN's point.
> Why, when _some _women express outrage/anger at everyday sexism, do _some _men continue to dismiss this as some kind of hysteria?



My theory is that they/we don't do it ourselves (_or aren't conscious of doing it ourselves_) and because we don't see it so much, on that "evidence" it's not a big issue. (It is)

I don't see the EXACT behaviour discussed by the OP, but working somewhere that deals with caravan and trailer parts and spares, as well as bikes, I see it in a different form. Such as the bloke who asked me about caravan waste connector sizes, I explained my areas were bikes and IT, and didn't know anything about the subject, guided him to the (female) assistant manager who was perfectly able to furnish him with the correct hose and connectors - but that didn't stop him following me outside where I was unloading a van, to ask if he's been given the right parts - and when I repeated that I would trust her judgement over mine, he then went to ask the bloke delivering cycle parts. Because possession of a penis was more important than actually knowing the products, apparently. This sort of thing happens a lot at my work where there are a higher proportion of female staff and (this should not need saying!) each one of them perfectly able to answer questions and select the right parts.


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## Tin Pot (14 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Well said @Inertia.
> I just wrote an long post because I remembered more stuff that makes me want to throw my pump, but it has been deleted in the spirit of the Easter dove, bringer of peace
> Wishing you all a peaceful time over the Easter weekend
> 
> View attachment 347481



Blessed are the peacemakers


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## Justinslow (14 Apr 2017)

Errrr, thought this thread was locked?
Storm in a D cup.........


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## growingvegetables (14 Apr 2017)

Sheffield_Tiger said:


> I don't see the EXACT behaviour discussed by the OP, but working somewhere that deals with caravan and trailer parts and spares, as well as bikes, I see it in a different form. ... Because possession of a penis was more important than actually knowing the products, apparently.


Spot on.

My daughter worked off-and-on in the local Halfords, mostly the bike section, for a good while. She and her male mates had a few "routines" for confuddling such male customers. Honed to perfectly timed comedy value. 

A case of frequent, oh-so-frequent, practise making perfect.


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## ufkacbln (15 Apr 2017)

growingvegetables said:


> Spot on.
> 
> My daughter worked off-and-on in the local Halfords, mostly the bike section, for a good while. She and her male mates had a few "routines" for confuddling such male customers. Honed to perfectly timed comedy value.
> 
> A case of frequent, oh-so-frequent, practise making perfect.




We were looking for a car, as we needed something big enough for the hoist

At one garage, we were immediately set upon by a salesman..... who would not go away, apparently you cannot look at a car without a salesman to talk you through

Even when told we were just looking, he would descend every time we looked interested in a vehicle.

So I started looking at a rather swish BMW 4x4, he assumed I was the buyer, ignored my wife and across he came - we spent 15 minutes discussing it, until eventually he asked about our budget.

Took great delight informing. him that I didn't have one, it was my wife buying the car, and all I had been doing was keeping him busy whilst my wife looked in peace


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## Wobblers (15 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> I think the relative difference between male/female in propensity to comment here if it's happened to you is due to various social pressures, plus the rather one-sided thread title.



Selection bias, eh? Except there's probably as many men replying on this thread as women, so that's dubious. @Pat "5mph" asked a direct question as to whether men faced the same sort of patronising behaviour that she had. The few answers she had were in the negative. You're also ignoring the fact that women have to put up with this behaviour at (most) other times. It's typical behviour, in other words. You have to explain why cycling should be the exception - except of course the anecdotal evidence on this thread says it isn't...


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## Wobblers (15 Apr 2017)

Sigh....


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## velovoice (15 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4762767, member: 43827"]Just read Pat's op again. Nothing too extreme in what she says. Some men can be patronising a-holes, especially to women. It's happened since time immemorial and will probably always happen in some fields which some men think are their area of expertise. In itself it's worth a moan on a cycling forum but *is not the biggest problem in the world, and can be reduced by the victims of such behaviour *giving an appropriate response to the perpetrator, as I am sure Pat is able to.

It can also happen in reverse though. I have done my own ironing since I was a kid, my parents felt we should take part in the household duties, and I have always repaired my clothes either by hand or machine sewing. This does not stop my wife and occasional female visitors to our house commenting "helpfully" on the way I carry out such tasks. I just laugh it off and carry on doing it my way quite efficiently.[/QUOTE]



McWobble said:


> Sigh....



[QUOTE 4762851, member: 43827"]



Care to explain without the condescending sigh?[/QUOTE]
HTH.


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## flake99please (15 Apr 2017)

A question for 'some' of the male members...

If your wife/sister/mother/daughter were a competent & confident cyclist, would you assume that a comment to use a lower/higher gear, wear a helmet and/or hi-viz clothing was 'being helpful', or would you rather they just mind their own business?


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## velovoice (15 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4763004, member: 43827"]Read the theme of the post without concentrating on one, probably clumsily worded, element.

I agreed that it is a problem caused by male a-holes, but are you seriously telling me it is it the biggest problem that women face? Informing such men of their behaviour at the time of the incident will help reduce it by embarrassing them.

There have been threads on violence to women, FGM, female slavery, exploitation in the sex trade. There is undoubted sexism in career opportunities, working conditions etc. Apologies for any I have missed out. All of these are, in my opinion, much more damaging to women, and much bigger problems, but if you, as a woman, tell me they are not and that all acts of male sexism are equally bad, then I will apologise unreservedly to you and all the women on this forum for the highlighted section of my post and accept that I have a lot to learn on the effects of male chauvinism.[/QUOTE]
You said it, i didn't.


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## boydj (15 Apr 2017)

Interestingly it is now 50 years this week since a woman first ran the Boston Marathon (illegally) - and then it took another 5 years for women to be allowed to run 1500m at the Olympics. 

It seems that some attitudes towards women have not changed much in those 50 years.


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Apr 2017)

Given that British women's medal tally at the world track championships exceeds that of the men, perhaps the advice should be travelling in the opposite direction....


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## ufkacbln (15 Apr 2017)

flake99please said:


> A question for 'some' of the male members...
> 
> If your wife/sister/mother/daughter were a competent & confident cyclist, would you assume that a comment to use a lower/higher gear, wear a helmet and/or hi-viz clothing was 'being helpful', or would you rather they just mind their own business?


Context is all

I know people on here and in cycling groups who will tell anybody not wearing a helmet or Hi-viz to wear it

I would have to be convinced that their decision to do so was unique or different in this case and based on gender


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## swansonj (15 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4763004, member: 43827"]...

I agreed that it is a problem caused by male a-holes, but are you seriously telling me it is it the biggest problem that women face? .,.[/QUOTE]

I'd tentative suggest that male a-holes giving advice, specifically, on cycling,may well not be the biggest problem women face; but that male a-holes, in one manifestation or another, probably are pretty close to being the biggest problem that not just women but the whole world faces.


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## growingvegetables (15 Apr 2017)

""That's one small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind."


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## Pat "5mph" (16 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4763004, member: 43827"]I agreed that it is a problem caused by male a-holes, but are you seriously telling me it is it the biggest problem that women face?[/QUOTE]
Of course not.
As I said umpteen times up thread, I personally am quite thick skinned, lots of male (and female) patronizing goes right over my head, takes a few repeats until I notice that the other person is a pain.
BUT when I'm with my ladies group I feel protective of them.
Several are beginners, some are older, some have the bike skills but lack road confidence, others are new in town, they come along to learn routes.
Several of us did the leader's course, we volunteer to take groups for rides and we want to give our groups a good experience.
Having random men barging into our ride to give us a sermon is certainly not part of a good riding experience.
So, while this is just a minor niggle in the grand scale of things, it could certainly put off some women from cycling: I'm not having it! 

[QUOTE 4763190, member: 43827"]I clearly said that embarrassing patronising men at the time will _help reduce _the problem. I did not say, and do not believe it would resolve it.[/QUOTE]
Ime, they just ride off in a half when I answer sharply, no doubt thinking it's my time of the month.
Tbh, some ladies of a sweeter disposition than mine have said "oh, Pat, that wasn't nice".
I'm still not having it!


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## mjr (16 Apr 2017)

McWobble said:


> Selection bias, eh? Except there's probably as many men replying on this thread as women, so that's dubious.


Not only. There's also a secondary effect of the problem. It seems women complaining about rude daffodils get some support, some dismissals. Men complaining about them get told to MTFU or words that feel like that by almost everyone, or to STFU because it happens more to women.

Anecdotal evidence  Welcome to Trump world!


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## Pat "5mph" (16 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Men complaining about them get told to MTFU or words that feel like that by almost everyone, or to STFU because it happens more to women.


I have not noticed the first instance of your examples on this thread.
I have noticed the second, yes.


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## Bonus (16 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Could do it without thinking when a kid. Definitely a lost skill.



I think that's because falling off a kids bike you only have a little way to fall whereas perched on top of my 29er it's a long way down!


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## jefmcg (16 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4763190, member: 43827"]I hesitate to reply as almost anything I say will be taken as further evidence of my male chauvinism.[/QUOTE]
It's a puzzle, isn't it? How do you explain sexism to women without coming over as patronising?


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## ufkacbln (16 Apr 2017)

... o


jefmcg said:


> It's a puzzle, isn't it? How do you explain sexism to women without coming over as patronising?



Or dismissed as "mansplaining"?


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## jefmcg (16 Apr 2017)




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## jonny jeez (16 Apr 2017)

I'm going to give this a try.

Firstly. I am a man.

Secondly, I do truly believe that more of these patronising men offering unsolicited advice, are simply idiots that do the same to men and women. Than out and out chauvinists.

But...and this is the result of reading through many of the posts that make hard reading, not because of their content but their phrasing (a discussion for another time perhaps?) I am trying to understand if their is a different motivation or drive for some of these idiots. Do they offer me, a man, advice to compensate....and do they offer women advice to patronise (perhaps compensate In other ways). I'm sure some do...and I'm sure some dont.

I've have been thinking about the issue of Power. The nearest I can come to experiencing this is on hills.

I'm a big rider, I over 6ft and "well built". On certain incline hills (usually over 15%) I am disappointingly slow. But those that ride with me know that on the flat I am fast. I also have a lot of stamina and can ride a long distance at an overall and average pace that is considered "good".

In short, overall I am capable or more than equal to most riders.

Yet at the top of a hill, I am usually met with a number of "supportive "comments, back slaps and suggestions of how to improve.i usually respond verbally with good grace but internally hate the advice. I know that at the end of the ride most, if not all, of these kind riders will be arriving empty of energy yet full of excuses for their delay...traffic lights, lorries, other riders.

I have even noticed how some of these riders seem to plan subsequent rides to incorporate hills...or perhaps they don't. Perhaps that's my suspicion of their motives getting the better of me, perhaps it should.

This is the closest I can get to imagining how it feels to be permanently riding up a hill in the eyes of an entire gender rather than just a few knobs in a group ride, always being the obvious target for helpful.advice, always being weaker, slower...less. So I think I can start to understand how, eventually this can make me sensitive (sorry I had to use that word...at least I didn't say emotional) to these types of interactions.

What does all this mean? To me it means that yes, some of these patronising men are indeed chauvinist, many dont know it, most more likely do and are happy with that.

But not all are, in my example, some are genuine in their advice, they know I am.a strong rider and dont want to see a small bump in performance compromise my overall experience, they recognise that I am struggling in the moment and want me to be back on pace, showing them...motivating them...inspiring them.


----------



## jefmcg (16 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> ... o
> 
> 
> Or dismissed as "mansplaining"?


Whoosh!


----------



## Justinslow (16 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> I'm going to give this a try.
> 
> Firstly. I am a man.
> 
> ...



You think too much


----------



## Wobblers (16 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4762851, member: 43827"]



Care to explain without the condescending sigh?[/QUOTE]

There's been example after example of how women are patronised, condescended to and generally put down: your reply was to come up with the one rather weak example of how you perceive yourself to be wronged in a similar manner. It's as if the last 30 odd pages never existed. Do you really think that anyone who's been at the sharp end of such experiences wants to hear your anecdote, _especially when it's the exception rather than the rule_?


----------



## Wobblers (16 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Not only. There's also a secondary effect of the problem. It seems women complaining about rude daffodils get some support, some dismissals.



FFS, how's about looking at just who's dishing out the dismissals? Or, more accurately, the _gender _of those dishing out the dismissals.


----------



## jonny jeez (16 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> You think too much


you should try it sometime.


----------



## Justinslow (16 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> you should try it sometime.


Maybe I should but I don't go round trying to tell people what to do. 
Too many people on this thread wasting too much time worrying about what other people say IMO.
Anyone ever heard the phrase "sticks and stones"?
Life's too short.
Do whatever, everyone's different.


----------



## Ian H (16 Apr 2017)

Is it just me imagining it, or do some blokes feel terribly threatened by the idea that women might disagree with them, not require their help, be capable of independent existence, and even not regard men as central to their lives?


----------



## david k (16 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Dear male cyclists,
> A wee note to inform you that your attitude is rattling our mudguards.
> From you, Hi-Vized to the extreme on a bright day, helmeted on the segregated path, riding on a shared pavement at 20mph, we don't want to hear comments about our cycling.
> We don't want you to join us uninvited then commenting on our lack of helmets, we don't want you to tell us not to practice riding no handed on a deserted cycle route, we don't want you to teach us how to use our gears, we don't want you to coach us on how to coast to a stop when our chain comes off, we don't want you to lash out if we get in the way of your Strava segment, we also don't want you to assume we are new to cycling.
> ...


In your experience is this generational? IME it is usually more mature men who are condescending, but I'm a man and therefore may not see it
I also find some cyclist arrogant obnoxious idiots, often offering me advice, more than once I've been told I'm too big to be a cyclist, get bigger tyres, do you not ride often? When cycling slow to them etc. Etc. I'm not convinced this behaviour is unique to females, again I may have a biased opinion. I have found many riders very smug and elitist, I've come to realise this is just human nature, as we cycle we associate it with cycling but it goes on everywhere I suspect


----------



## david k (16 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> Could do it without thinking when a kid. Definitely a lost skill.


Yes I could ride round corners without touching the handle bars, now I struggle, is it simply balance? I guess so


----------



## Markymark (16 Apr 2017)

david k said:


> Yes I could ride round corners without touching the handle bars, now I struggle, is it simply balance? I guess so


Dunno. I was definitely less breakable and less of a scaredy cat.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (16 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> But not all are, in my example, some are genuine in their advice, they know I am.a strong rider and dont want to see a small bump in performance compromise my overall experience, they recognise that I am struggling in the moment and want me to be back on pace, showing them...motivating them...inspiring them.


For the umpteen time (again! selective reading on this thread ) "they" don't know me or my group from Adam, "they" are not even riding with us!
"They" don't want to encourage us, they just want to correct us ... just because they think we need correcting.



david k said:


> In your experience is this generational?


Not really.
Once a youngish guy though "what, girls, no helmet, no hi-viz" would get hoim a date - he later found one of the group on our site wanting to chat.
Another time, a young chap "I'm a bike mechanic, don'tcha know" insisted in adjusting my front mech, after I asked him not to, because I knew my chain dropped because of a rough gear change, my fault.
Of course he messed it up, I lost the use of my granny ring on the ride, had to fix it myself later at home.
Another, hilarious episode, was when we had a seat post clamp failure, in the middle of nowhere on the canal path.
Lucky, we had with us the head bike mechanic (a woman) of a local cycling hub.
After failing to fix it with materials to hand (I broke into a building site to get her a piece of wire she needed ) she devised a towing system so that the rider of the broken bike could be towed back to base half standing on the pedals, half crouched on the frame.
I think I wrote on here about this mishap, with lots of pictures, hehe.
Anyhow, we had towed Michelle for over 10 miles already, obviously we had to stay on the canal path, when this young chap (again "I'm a bike mechanic with so and so, don'tcha know??" rode towards us, looked, then started to give us a lecture on seat posts and seat post clamps, what we should have done, how the towing wasn't going to work, blah, blah, blah.
The looks he got back could have barbecued your Easter lamb.
Aha, here I found the link to the story, complete of picture of the chap, as you can see he's young.


----------



## Dayvo (16 Apr 2017)

Pat! If ALL else fails, *'F*CK OFF'*, usually works. Add a 'please' if you think it's necessary.


----------



## growingvegetables (16 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> The looks he got back could have barbecued your Easter lamb.


For those of us who like the sound of barbecued lamb. .


----------



## Slick (16 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> For the umpteen time (again! selective reading on this thread ) "they" don't know me or my group from Adam, "they" are not even riding with us!
> "They" don't want to encourage us, they just want to correct us ... just because they think we need correcting.
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, great story Pat, although I'm not entirely sure anyone else read it.


----------



## jefmcg (16 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4763867, member: 43827"]If I come across a man explaining sexism to women I'll ask them the same question.[/QUOTE]

You could start with ... um ... let me see ... someone who tells women that they shouldn't complain about casual sexism unless they believe it is as bad a FGM.

[QUOTE 4763004, member: 43827"]There have been threads on violence to women, FGM, female slavery, exploitation in the sex trade. There is undoubted sexism in career opportunities, working conditions etc. Apologies for any I have missed out. All of these are, in my opinion, much more damaging to women, and much bigger problems, but if you, as a woman, tell me they are not and that all acts of male sexism are equally bad, then I will apologise unreservedly to you and all the women on this forum for the highlighted section of my post and accept that I have a lot to learn on the effects of male chauvinism.[/QUOTE]


----------



## ufkacbln (16 Apr 2017)

david k said:


> Yes I could ride round corners without touching the handle bars, now I struggle, is it simply balance? I guess so



IIRC the peak of your coordination is about 24 years old, it is all downhill from there!!!!!!


----------



## RedRider (16 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> For the umpteen time (again! selective reading on this thread ) "they" don't know me or my group from Adam, "they" are not even riding with us!
> "They" don't want to encourage us, they just want to correct us ... just because they think we need correcting.
> 
> 
> ...


Look, Pat... After 33 pages of blokes patiently explaining why you're wrong and giving impartial advice about sticks and stones off a duck's back can you not just accept that men are not patronising ?


----------



## Slick (16 Apr 2017)




----------



## winjim (16 Apr 2017)

RedRider said:


> Look, Pat... After 33 pages of blokes patiently explaining why you're wrong and giving impartial advice about sticks and stones off a duck's back can you not just accept that men know more about all this?


Incoming pump! Duck!


----------



## ufkacbln (16 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764178, member: 9609"]sounds about right, a quick google shows the av age of a premiership footballer is 25. Av age tour de france winner 28.[/QUOTE]
Little hope for many of us then..... or is that ageist?


----------



## ufkacbln (16 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Incoming pump! Duck!



Can I advise on the injury potential of pumps?


----------



## deptfordmarmoset (16 Apr 2017)

RedRider said:


> Look, Pat... After 33 pages of blokes patiently explaining why you're wrong and giving impartial advice about sticks and stones off a duck's back can you not just accept that men are not patronising ?


And as women are evidently honorary apprentices to every self-appointed expert, you'd think they'd have got it by now....

(''Put the track pump down!'')


----------



## Lozz360 (17 Apr 2017)

subaqua said:


> If something's hanging off that's gonna hurt somebody , or somebody rides where they will hurt others then regardless of sex( gender is s social construct apparently) they get told .nicely.


Slightly OT but I thought that 'sex' is something you do and 'gender' describes what you are.


----------



## ufkacbln (17 Apr 2017)

Lozz360 said:


> Slightly OT but I thought that 'sex' is something you do and 'gender' describes what you are.


It used to be a standard on application forms, before the word gender became used more widely, there was always name, date of birth, address, sex.....

There was always the immature and childish desire to write "Yes please"


----------



## ufkacbln (17 Apr 2017)

More seriously I thought sex was the definition by chromosome, XX, or XY, whilst gender was the social and personal interpretation

That is why it is possible to be a female in gender, but not allowed to participate in a certain sport because of the strict chromosomal definition of sex which makes the individual male


----------



## Tenacious Sloth (17 Apr 2017)

After 34 pages of this, surely you guys realise it's impossible to say the right thing?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, they're only chicks after all.



Graham.


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> After 34 pages of this, surely you guys realise it's impossible to say the right thing?



Saying nothing is an option, believe it or not.


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> More seriously I thought sex was the definition by chromosome, XX, or XY, whilst gender was the social and personal interpretation
> 
> That is why it is possible to be a female in gender, but not allowed to participate in a certain sport because of the strict chromosomal definition of sex which makes the individual male



I bet it feels a bit like this watching me trying to figure out quantum mechanics.


----------



## ufkacbln (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> I bet it feels a bit like this watching me trying to figure out quantum mechanics.


Quantum mechanics is probably a safer subject


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> Quantum mechanics is probably a safer subject


You feel in danger?


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764566, member: 9609"]is it not all just a bad habit complaining about men, fair enough sexism existed once but we thankfully seem to have moved away from that - women seem to be in control of most things that are important now, look at the top three European economies all now run by women (or at least soon to be)[/QUOTE]

Oh do give over.


----------



## ufkacbln (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> You feel in danger?



Have you seen the size of that pump?


----------



## User6179 (17 Apr 2017)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> After 34 pages of this, surely you guys realise it's impossible to say the right thing?
> 
> Anyway, it doesn't really matter, they're only chicks after all.
> 
> ...



The smart male chauvinists kept quiet , prepare to be pumped !


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

Eddy said:


> The smart male chauvinists


The what now?


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764566, member: 9609"]is it not all just a bad habit complaining about men, fair enough sexism existed once but we thankfully seem to have moved away from that - women seem to be in control of most things that are important now, look at the top three European economies all now run by women (or at least soon to be)[/QUOTE]
There are twice as many men _named John_ as there are women CEOs of FTSE 100 companies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/just-who-are-the-7-women-bosses-of-the-ftse-100/


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Maybe I should but I don't go round trying to tell people what to do.
> Too many people on this thread wasting too much time worrying about what other people say IMO.
> Anyone ever heard the phrase "sticks and stones"?
> Life's too short.
> Do whatever, everyone's different.


Sorry I just dont understand this. I'm not telling anyone what to do? Are you sure you are not confusing me with other posters. And are you suggesting that pat, or anyone shouldn't worry about what people say, should just ignore it...perhaps not respond at all.

I think your first line was spot on though.


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> There are twice as many men _named John_ as there are women CEOs of FTSE 100 companies.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/work/just-who-are-the-7-women-bosses-of-the-ftse-100/


I'm guessing there are more men named Mohammed than there are male and female ceos on the planet, or Md's for that matter.

Not sure the number of johns is at all relevant to your point.


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> I'm guessing there are more men named Mohammed than there are male and female ceos on the planet, or Md's for that matter.
> 
> Not sure the number of johns is at all relevant to your point.


What point do you think I'm trying to make?


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> What point do you think I'm trying to make?


 there are millions of children being named John at birth, each year.

In unrelated news, there are 7 firms who have female ceo"s


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> there are millions of children being named John at birth, each year.
> 
> In unrelated news, there are 7 firms who have female ceo"s


No, that wasn't quite it.


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Sorry I just dont understand this. I'm not telling anyone what to do? Are you sure you are not confusing me with other posters. And are you suggesting that pat, or anyone shouldn't worry about what people say, should just ignore it...perhaps not respond at all.
> 
> I think your first line was spot on though.


Sorry it wasn't a direct response to you "telling people what to do" I'm sure you don't!


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> And are you suggesting that pat, or anyone shouldn't worry about what people say, should just ignore it...perhaps not respond at all.


Yeah pretty much, there will always be people like this both male and female in all walks of life, do you fester on it letting it spoil your life or just tell them straight (like the OP has done).
Coming on here (or any other media) won't make the slightest bit of difference to these "type" of people. Like I said life's too short, Just my opinion obviously.

Edit. Its mostly people who think they are more intelligent or more skilled or more experienced than others who do this though, you only have to look at posters on CC to see this in action


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764684, member: 9609"]It is wrong to tell someone how to pedal their bike cause that is being pompous
But it is OK to tell someone how and what to think.[/QUOTE]
No mate, which is why I added "just my opinion".


----------



## Inertia (17 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Yeah pretty much, there will always be people like this both male and female in all walks of life, do you fester on it letting it spoil your life or just tell them straight (like the OP has done).
> Coming on here (or any other media) won't make the slightest bit of difference to these "type" of people. Like I said life's too short, Just my opinion obviously.
> 
> Edit. Its mostly people who think they are more intelligent or more skilled or more experienced than others who do this though, you only have to look at posters on CC to see this in action


if someone on here recognises some of that behaviour in themselves I think it might make some differenc. Even if they don't come on and say it.

At the very least it got people thinking


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> No, that wasn't quite it.


Perhaps you need to make it clearer then


----------



## jefmcg (17 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Perhaps you need to make it clearer then


There are CEOs named John than CEOs who are women.


----------



## vickster (17 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> There are more CEOs named John than CEOs who are women.


FTFY


----------



## jefmcg (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764566, member: 9609"]is it not all just a bad habit complaining about men, fair enough sexism existed once but we thankfully seem to have moved away from that - women seem to be in control of most things that are important now, look at the top three European economies all now run by women (or at least soon to be)[/QUOTE]
Yes. And racism in America ended when Obama became president.


----------



## Wobblers (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4763844, member: 43827"]Get a sense of perspective. Did I say I'd been "wronged"? Was I complaining about it, quite the opposite if you bothered to read my post? How do you know it's the exception rather than the rule, do you have the evidence to back that up? I am not vain enough to assume people will want to hear my anecdotes, but was contributing to the thread in a not too serious vein.

I will take criticism on board from women, who understand the issues first hand, and I have done so as a result of their comments, but I do not worry too much about criticism from perpetually outraged VSers.[/QUOTE]

And still you fail to understand. You explain to someone who's been patronised all her life that you have once encountered something you regard as similar - and fail to appreciate that you're trivialising her experiences.(Oh, and don't try to claim that being patronised is an every day experience, you'd have come up with more - and less banal - examples.) Likewise, comparing casual sexism to:

[QUOTE 4763004, member: 43827"]violence to women, FGM, female slavery, exploitation in the sex trade. [/QUOTE]

also continues the theme of trivialising it - and you fail to appreciate how unthinkingly offensive that is. Or this, for that matter:
[QUOTE 4762767, member: 43827"]In itself it's worth a moan on a cycling forum but is not the biggest problem in the world, and can be reduced by the victims of such behaviour giving an appropriate response to the perpetrator, as I am sure Pat is able to.
[/QUOTE]

You've managed to illustrate perfectly the behaviour Pat and other women have commented on. It is ironic that it is _you _who has complained about being condescended to. The smart thing to do would be to _stop digging_. I bet you won't, though.


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

jonny jeez said:


> Perhaps you need to make it clearer then


Our economy is not run by women.


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Our economy is not run by women.


Thanks. Much clearer.
its not, you are completely right.


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

vickster said:


> FTFY


Ah, now that makes more sense.


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> There are CEOs named John than CEOs who are women.


Absolutely but that isn't what winjim wrote...hence my request for clarity.

Ps, you meant to add a "more" right?


----------



## jonny jeez (17 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> It was clear in the linked article though.


Actually it really wasn't. Hence the reason it stood out to me. The article was flooded with pop ups making it all but impossible to view on a phone, scrolling was even worse and sent me onto two ad pages before I gave up.


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

Sorry if I was unclear. I admit that another reading of my statement could be that there are twice as many men named John in the whole world than there are women CEOs of FTSE 100 companies. Which would mean that there are 14 men named John_ in the entire farking world_. Which is clearly ridiculous.


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Sorry if I was unclear. I admit that another reading of my statement could be that there are twice as many men named John in the whole world than there are women CEOs of FTSE 100 companies. Which would mean that there are 14 men named John_ in the entire farking world_. Which is clearly ridiculous.


----------



## srw (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Sorry if I was unclear. I admit that another reading of my statement could be that there are twice as many men named John in the whole world than there are women CEOs of FTSE 100 companies. Which would mean that there are 14 men named John_ in the entire farking world_. Which is clearly ridiculous.


Be fair. You could have meant that all 100 CEOs of FTSE 100 companies were women, and there were 700 men named John in the whole world.

Which is also ridiculous.


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> Be fair. You could have meant that all 100 CEOs of FTSE 100 companies were women, and there were 700 men named John in the whole world.
> 
> Which is also ridiculous.


Damn the English language!

It is interesting though, I thought the point I was making was really obvious but it seems that to others it wasn't. I was typing fast while chasing a toddler so that was the source of my brevity. Anyway, the John thing's just there to grab the attention and for emphasis, it's the 7% figure that's important.


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764732, member: 9609"]I think you must have taken that the wrong way, i was completely agreeing with you post.[/QUOTE]
Yes oops!


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764781, member: 9609"]The point I was referring to was that the biggest most influential countries in Europe are headed by Women, and it looks pretty certain that France will soon be joining that list (although hopefully merkle will be getting the big heave-ho) - So there we have it 50% of the worlds 6 biggest economies (these 6 countries make up well over half of all the worlds trade) will be countries headed by women, ie you can't say women are not getting a shot at the top jobs.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they are getting a shot, but they're still having to shoot backwards in high heels.


----------



## jefmcg (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Yes, they are getting a shot, but they're still having to shoot backwards in high heels.



This is the problem with the obscenity filter on this site. I first read this as


Spoiler: protecting your delicate eyes



shît backwards in high heals


----------



## Inertia (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Yes, they are getting a shot, but they're still having to shoot backwards in high heels.


Yes yes but who won legsit?


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> This is the problem with the obscenity filter on this site. I first read this as
> 
> 
> Spoiler: protecting your delicate eyes
> ...


By all means give it a go if you think your knees will bend that way.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (17 Apr 2017)

I'm still here, reading, pump at the ready @User43827, because sometimes a few sharp words are not enough.
Got to ride to work now, but I'll be back


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> I'm still here, reading, pump at the ready @User43827, because sometimes a few sharp words are not enough.
> Got to ride to work now, but I'll be back



Chapeau, Pat, for standing your ground in the face of all this nobbery.


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Chapeau, Pat, for standing your ground in the face of all this nobbery.


----------



## Profpointy (17 Apr 2017)

Ther is a certain irony that a sensible, if provocative OP which should give blokes, including it must be admitted us "right on"types, something to think about, has turned into a bit of a pissing contest betwee, umm, blokes


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

Profpointy said:


> Ther is a certain irony that a sensible, if provocative OP which should give blokes, including it must be admitted us "right on"types, something to think about, has turned into a bit of a pissing contest betwee, umm, blokes


I agree, and if Claud can't see that with comments such as 


theclaud said:


> Chapeau, Pat, for standing your ground in the face of all this nobbery.


Then that's part of the problem!
It's a "i am right everyone else is wrong" comment, exactly what Pat was commenting on.


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I agree, and if Claud can't see that with comments such as
> 
> Then that's part of the problem!
> It's a "i am right everyone else is wrong" comment, exactly what Pat was commenting on.


@theclaud appears to be winning at the pissing contest.


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> @theclaud appears to be winning at the pissing contest.


Without a penis, too...


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Without a penis, too...


Imagine the things you could accomplish if only you had one...


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

winjim said:


> Imagine the things you could accomplish if only you had one...


----------



## Justinslow (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Without a penis, too...


Well there you go, proves your sex has nothing to do with it!


----------



## srw (17 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Well there you go, proves your sex has nothing to do with it!


Nominative determinism in action?


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

Inertia said:


> Yes yes but who won legsit?


Nobody. On that day there were no winners.


----------



## jefmcg (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Without a penis, too...


Well, that playing field is equal, now that Poundland is selling off-brand shewees.


----------



## boydj (17 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Yeah pretty much, there will always be people like this both male and female in all walks of life, do you fester on it letting it spoil your life or just tell them straight (like the OP has done).
> Coming on here (or any other media) won't make the slightest bit of difference to these "type" of people. Like I said life's too short, Just my opinion obviously.
> 
> Edit. *Its mostly people who think they are more intelligent or more skilled or more experienced than others* who do this though, you only have to look at posters on CC to see this in action



Is that not most of us?


----------



## jefmcg (17 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764684, member: 9609"]It is wrong to tell someone how to pedal their bike cause that is being pompous
But it is OK to tell someone how and what to think.[/QUOTE]
Is anyone telling people how to think? @Pat "5mph" (I think) is just suggesting how they should *talk*. Me too.


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Well, that playing field is equal, now that Poundland is selling off-brand shewees.


That I did not know. I'll pop in and get one in anticipation of the next pissing contest.


----------



## Milkfloat (17 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> That I did not know. I'll pop in and get one in anticipation of the next pissing contest.



Without wanting to interfere too much, I thought a pissing competition was measured by distance rather than volume, or have I been doing it wrong all these years?


----------



## theclaud (17 Apr 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> Without wanting to interfere too much, I thought a pissing competition was measured by distance rather than volume, or have I been doing it wrong all these years?


Hence the need for the shewee. I'm not sure that women are disadvantaged by volume.


----------



## winjim (17 Apr 2017)

I thought it was all about scent marking.


----------



## jefmcg (17 Apr 2017)

Milkfloat said:


> Without wanting to interfere too much, I thought a pissing competition was measured by distance rather than volume, or have I been doing it wrong all these years?


This is deep.

Should (pre-homicide) Oscar Pistorius been allowed to compete in the main Olympics? Answers on a post card.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (18 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Chapeau, Pat, for standing your ground in the face of all this nobbery.


There are not many issues I feel strongly about, but this is one of them.
I feel cycling, in any form, is good for personal well being, for the environment too, of course.
When CC Ecosse toured from Glasgow to Inverness, there was a very tough stage.
I found myself pedaling up yet another hill, exhausted, still going though, remembering two men in my past.
They would have said " you can't, you can't, you can't ...."
They loved me, you see.
Well, I can, I am doing it, so can all women that want to.



jefmcg said:


> Is anyone telling people how to think? @Pat "5mph" (I think) is just suggesting how they should *talk*. Me too.


Nay, I'm suggesting they should shut up 
I'm adding something too:
guys (the ones that do this) please don't try to get the women in your life up Mount Ventoux if they rather like a poodle along the canal.
Don't buy them a bike with a basket if they are looking fondly at a road bike - or indeed the opposite.
Most women compromise somehow in a relationship about many things, cycling should not be one of them.
Let us enjoy our little cycling conquests without putting us down: I hear lots of Belles saying " my husband is a good cyclist, he wants me to do more hills faster, he wants me to ride that bike, he wants me to wear this clothing, he wants me to ride the road, I need to train because he wants to ride that long route with me".
We had men on CC on past threads asking why is there the need of female cycling groups, well, this is why.
Oh, and another thing, the Belles would never leave a sick, injured or tired rider to find their own way home, while some groups lead by men do, I have witnessed this quite a few times, that's why I never go with a mixed group without having the route loaded on my Garmin.
But maybe I'm going a wee bit off topic now.


----------



## ufkacbln (18 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Hence the need for the shewee. I'm not sure that women are disadvantaged by volume.



The bladder size is independent of sex (about 600 - 800 ml)

What is more the point is how long you can "hold it in"

The bladder has sensors and usually wants to empty at about 150 ml

People can resist the urge until about 3/4 full when the ability to resist fails


----------



## Flick of the Elbow (18 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> There are not many issues I feel strongly about, but this is one of them.
> I feel cycling, in any form, is good for personal well being, for the environment too, of course.
> When CC Ecosse toured from Glasgow to Inverness, there was a very tough stage.
> I found myself pedaling up yet another hill, exhausted, still going though, remembering two men in my past.
> ...


Calm down dear, it's only a bike ride


----------



## theclaud (18 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> The bladder size is independent of sex


That's what I just said.


----------



## srw (18 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> That's what I just said.


To be fair, you expressed uncertainty.

I suspect that @Cunobelin is wrong, because I suspect that bladder size is correlated closely and positively with body size. But clearly he's an expert so can cite the reference.


----------



## Justinslow (18 Apr 2017)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> Calm down dear, it's only a bike ride


Couldn't agree more.


Thanks for the advice Pat that I didn't ask for!

We're not all male dickheads in real life (no matter what you think, or what I write in here).


Here's a picture of my wife from a couple of weeks ago where she completed a 6 mile "mud run" for charity with various obstacles. Yes I was there giving my full support despite the fact she's not a runner and cycles infrequently. A top effort by her indeed.


----------



## theclaud (18 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> To be fair, you expressed uncertainty.


Not really. It's a figure of speech.


----------



## srw (18 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Not really. It's a figure of speech.


It is to you and me. But there are a lot of people who read "I'm not sure that" as "I'm not sure that".

(Edit)

Especially if they expect uncertainty from the person saying it, consciously or unconsciously.


----------



## theclaud (18 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice Pat that I didn't ask for!
> ...


WTAF?


----------



## theclaud (18 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> It is to you and me. But there are a lot of people who read "I'm not sure that" as "I'm not sure that".


I responded precisely because Cunobelin was talking to me like he was the chair of a panel game. The fact that his doing so is entirely predictable is more or less what this thread is about.


----------



## jefmcg (18 Apr 2017)

Flick of the Elbow said:


> Calm down dear, it's only a bike ride


DON'T YOU EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT MAMIL AGAIN.

(sorry for shouting, but really)


----------



## srw (18 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> I responded precisely because Cunobelin was talking to me like he was the chair of a panel game. The fact that his doing so is entirely predictable is more or less what this thread is about.


Which is what I am clumsily trying to say. 

I suspect that [expresses uncertainty] some people regularly read my attempts to express uncertainty as definitive statements.


----------



## winjim (18 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> Which is what I am clumsily trying to say.
> 
> I suspect that [expresses uncertainty] some people regularly read my attempts to express uncertainty as definitive statements.


I worry the other way. I worry that my expressions of uncertainty are taken as me being unsure of my position or as capitulation to an argument where the other side has expressed absolute certainty. Of course, in many discussions, a certain uncertainty is the only rational position to take. I'm certain of that.


----------



## ufkacbln (18 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> To be fair, you expressed uncertainty.
> 
> I suspect that @Cunobelin is wrong, because I suspect that bladder size is correlated closely and positively with body size. But clearly he's an expert so can cite the reference.


It is a generalisation, the average size will never cover all eventualities the important thing is that willpower is the greater factor



Beer drinkers tend to have large bladders, and so on


----------



## ufkacbln (18 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4765579, member: 9609"]I can only manage chin height, but the doctor said as long as you can get it over a farm gate you're OK.[/QUOTE]

I believe Prince Phillip is the highest Peer


----------



## Profpointy (18 Apr 2017)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-expects-praise-for-liking-women-20170413125995

Quite a pertinent article


----------



## Spinney (18 Apr 2017)

Came across this - who said that sexism was a thing of the past?
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...-from-five-years-of-everyday-sexism?CMP=fb_gu


----------



## winjim (18 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Are you sure?


Under specified conditions and within well defined confidence limits, maybe.


----------



## jefmcg (18 Apr 2017)

People, people ....


Profpointy said:


> turned into a bit of a pissing





winjim said:


> winning at the pissing





theclaud said:


> Without a penis, too...





jefmcg said:


> selling off-brand shewees.





theclaud said:


> next pissing contest





Milkfloat said:


> I thought a pissing competition was measured by distance rather than volume





Cunobelin said:


> What is more the point is how long you can "hold it in"





Cunobelin said:


> I believe Prince Phillip is the highest Peer



etc etc. May I remind you of Shaun's wise words after the thread was locked because of a similar diversion?



Shaun said:


> Can we leave the washroom analogy behind and bring the thread back on topic please; which is generally about women cyclists having to deal with being patronised by male cyclists (_in excess of their male cycling counterparts_).
> 
> Thanks,
> Shaun


----------



## ufkacbln (18 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> People, people ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You mean Shaun might think we are taking the pi$$?


----------



## Wobblers (18 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4764978, member: 43827"]McWobble. I salute your continued virtue signalling pomposity, and repeat, in my last post on this topic, for those who suffer a comprehension deficit:

1. I believe it is wrong for men to patronise women
2. I think women have every right to complain about being patronised by men
3. I have not complained about being condescended to
4. If I gave Pat"5mph" the impression that I trivialised her feelings then I apologise to _her_, and not because I'm afraid of being hit by a flying pump. Her posts have probably been the most balanced comments in the thread.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your ad hominem. Odd that you complain about User when he does it to you...

I'm not talking you agreeing that it's wrong for men to patronise women. I'm talking about you repeatedly trivialising it. Something you've avoided addressing. Because the one thing that this thread _did not need_, when discussing the ways women are put down by some men, a story from you about how you've been patronised.

There's probably even an interesting point to be made there: it had crossed my mind to add some such banal story myself before realising just how inappropriate it was. An illustration of just how _ingrained _such attitudes are in society, perhaps. And how it sometimes requires the application of thought not to succumb to this old habit. But that would be wasted on you, wouldn't it?

As an aside:
[QUOTE 4764978, member: 43827"]
3. I have not complained about being condescended to[/QUOTE]
Oh really?
[QUOTE 4762851, member: 43827"]



Care to explain without the condescending sigh?[/QUOTE]

HTH


----------



## growingvegetables (19 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4766984, member: 43827"]Sorry everyone but it's my stalker's fault.[/QUOTE]
Nope!


----------



## slowmotion (19 Apr 2017)

srw said:


> To be fair, you expressed uncertainty.
> 
> I suspect that @Cunobelin is wrong, because I suspect that bladder size is correlated closely and positively with body size. But clearly he's an expert so can cite the reference.


Piss about with the formulae in this article.....

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410X.2003.04053.x/full


----------



## ufkacbln (19 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> I responded precisely because Cunobelin was talking to me like he was the chair of a panel game. The fact that his doing so is entirely predictable is more or less what this thread is about.



The thread is about the opposite, but it is true that perfectly reasonable replies adding detail to a series of posts are being misinterpreted

If this was a thread about tyres and you had said that you were uncertain about tyre size, then the usual and polite answer is to expand on that point with further detail. Had you said you were been uncertain about chain compatibility , expanding upon that would normally be an acceptable thing to do.

I had not realised this had changed.

By stating uncertainty on a subject you are inviting a reply and as a result the advice given is solicited

This thread is about exactly the opposite, unsolicited advice.


----------



## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> The thread is about the opposite, but it is true that perfectly reasonable replies adding detail to a series of posts are being misinterpreted
> 
> If this was a thread about tyres and you had said that you were uncertain about tyre size, then the usual and polite answer is to expand on that point with further detail. Had you said you were been uncertain about chain compatibility , expanding upon that would normally be an acceptable thing to do.
> 
> ...


Dear Cunobelin
I do not want your advice. I hope that is now clear, even if you did not understand it before. 
Thank you.
TC


----------



## User482 (19 Apr 2017)

Overall, my feeling upon reading this thread is one of profound disappointment. When women are repeatedly telling us the same thing about their experiences then it behoves us to listen, reflect, and act where necessary. Instead we have seen many posters engage in casual sexism, whataboutery, trivialization and diversion rather than engage with the substance of what @Pat "5mph" and others have said. It would seem that some will go to great lengths to avoid admitting that there is a problem.

I thought we were better than this but I appear to have been complacent.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User482 said:


> Overall, my feeling upon reading this thread is one of profound disappointment. When women are repeatedly telling us the same thing about their experiences then it behoves us to listen, reflect, and act where necessary. Instead we have seen many posters engage in casual sexism, whataboutery, trivialization and diversion rather than engage with the substance of what @Pat "5mph" and others have said. It would seem that some will go to great lengths to avoid admitting that there is a problem.
> 
> I thought we were better than this but I appear to have been complacent.


Unfortunately we don't live in a picture book perfect world.


----------



## Markymark (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Unfortunately we don't live in a picture book perfect world.


You're right, too many twats in it that don't listen to people's concerns.


----------



## User482 (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Unfortunately we don't live in a picture book perfect world.



That much is evident from this thread. If you had done me the courtesy of reading my post properly, you would've seen that I advocated a course of action for living in a better world.


----------



## ufkacbln (19 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Dear Cunobelin
> I do not want your advice. I hope that is now clear, even if you did not understand it before.
> Thank you.
> TC



I was not the only one who failed to "understand" your poor choice of words. I can only apologise for a general response caused by your post not being clear.


----------



## flake99please (19 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> By stating uncertainty on a subject you are inviting a reply and as a result the advice given is solicited.



By assuming the post in question by @theclaud was expressing a level of uncertainty, your reply could be deemed as uninvited and/or unsolicited.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User482 said:


> That much is evident from this thread. If you had done me the courtesy of reading my post properly, you would've seen that I advocated a course of action for living in a better world.


Ok, well put that to the worlds leaders and I'm sure everything will be hunky dory.


----------



## Ian H (19 Apr 2017)

User said:


> bottom up, rather than top down.



Is that the same as arse over tit?


----------



## User482 (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Ok, well put that to the worlds leaders and I'm sure everything will be hunky dory.





User482 said:


> Overall, my feeling upon reading this thread is one of profound disappointment. When women are repeatedly telling us the same thing about their experiences then it behoves us to listen, reflect, and act where necessary. Instead we have seen many posters engage in casual sexism, *whataboutery, trivialization and diversion rather than engage with the substance of what @Pat "5mph" and others have said. It would seem that some will go to great lengths to avoid admitting that there is a problem.*
> 
> I thought we were better than this but I appear to have been complacent.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Yep, I don't think there's a problem as in the OP, condescending men and women will be condescending to men AND women not just to one party and not just in cycling. 
My wife knows and has experiences of plenty of condescending women at work, is that ok?


----------



## User482 (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Yep, I don't think there's a problem as in the OP, condescending men and women will be condescending to men AND women not just to one party and not just in cycling.
> My wife knows and has experiences of plenty of condescending women at work, is that ok?



The thing about beliefs is that we need to re-evaluate them when they are challenged by evidence. The evidence presented here strongly suggests that you are wrong. I can't do anything about what you choose to do with that information.


----------



## Ian H (19 Apr 2017)

So Pat and other women here (and elsewhere of my acquaintance), who overwhelmingly agree there is a problem with (_certain_, if you like) men's attitude to them, are wrong, mistaken, and shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about it?


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User482 said:


> The thing about beliefs is that we need to re-evaluate them when they are challenged by evidence. The evidence presented here strongly suggests that you are wrong. I can't do anything about what you choose to do with that information.


What evidence? From the OP?


----------



## Ian H (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> What evidence? From the OP?





Ian H said:


> So Pat and other women here (and elsewhere of my acquaintance), who overwhelmingly agree there is a problem with (_certain_, if you like) men's attitude to them, are wrong, mistaken, and shouldn't worry their pretty little heads about it?


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

I think you should re read the opening post and see who it's directed at 



Pat "5mph" said:


> Dear male cyclists,



Talk about painting the whole world with a messy brush?


----------



## Inertia (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I think you should re read the opening post and see who it's directed at
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about painting the whole world with a messy brush?


Not really, after reading it I could see I wasn't one of the male cyclists it was aimed at, I did feel sympathy for the OP though.


----------



## Inertia (19 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4767726, member: 9609"]well I entirely believe them and sympathise with them, *but it is far from a problem that is experienced exclusively by women from men * _I would guess it exists at sim.ilar levels from both sexes on both sexes_. I think the big difference is it is probably less intimidating when it is happening to a bloke as he can tell them to feck off any time he chooses. (in fact I have never found it intimidating just bloody annoying) In the real world I am a very quiet person who takes his time over what ever I am working on - and nothing pishes me off more than smart alec no-it-alls who try to barge in and show me how they would do it.[/QUOTE]
*I think literally noone has said that
*
_That is where the disagreement lies, the OP and other posters experiences suggest otherwise._

For myself, I have never experienced it


----------



## Ian H (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I think you should re read the opening post and see who it's directed at
> 
> Talk about painting the whole world with a messy brush?



"The whole world"? Are you saying women are not part of it?


----------



## winjim (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I think you should re read the opening post and see who it's directed at
> 
> 
> 
> Talk about painting the whole world with a messy brush?


_When I get to the bottom I go back to the top of the slide
Where I stop and I turn and I go for a ride
Till I get to the bottom and I see you again..._​


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Ian H said:


> "The whole world"? Are you saying women are not part of it?


No I'm saying that the OP is directed at "male cyclists".


----------



## Inertia (19 Apr 2017)

[QUOTE 4767726, member: 9609"] *I think the big difference is it is probably less intimidating when it is happening to a bloke as he can tell them to feck off any time he chooses.* (in fact I have never found it intimidating just bloody annoying) In the real world I am a very quiet person who takes his time over what ever I am working on - and nothing pishes me off more than smart alec no-it-alls who try to barge in and show me how they would do it.[/QUOTE]
Sorry to reply again but just wanted to pick up on this point, I think its wrong to assume that just because the victim may be a bloke he can just 'man up' and tell the instigator where to stick it.

I do think its more likely that someone who would do this; wouldnt do it to a man for fear of being told where to go. (or other reaction)


----------



## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Markymark said:


> You're right, too many twats in it that don't listen to people's concerns.


Can we perhaps not use "vagina/vulva" as an insult in this one thread?

( I suspect @Markymark was doing this deliberately, but still)


----------



## Markymark (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Can we perhaps not use "vagina/vulva" as an insult in this one thread?
> 
> ( I suspect @Markymark was doing this deliberately, but still)


Apologies but I do equally use cock as an insult too.


----------



## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

[Mod Edit]


----------



## SteveF (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> [Mod Edit]
> View attachment 348267


Thanks for the unwelcome advice, I know how to do that already.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Inertia said:


> Sorry to reply again but just wanted to pick up on this point, I think its wrong to assume that just because the victim may be a bloke he can just 'man up' and tell the instigator where to stick it.
> 
> I do think its more likely that someone who would do this; wouldnt do it to a man for fear of being told where to go. (or other reaction)



I've been told at least twice by different men that my cadence was too low. This observation wasn't asked for but I took it in a constructive manner. Were they being condescending? 
I think a lot of these exchanges can be taken either way, perhaps the OP is being a tad defensive and these bods are just trying to help - rightly or wrongly.


----------



## The Essex Spurs (19 Apr 2017)

Good God saw a lady the other day who had a Chelmer cycling top on and had the best figure ever!! As a male cyclist there is nothing wrong with admiring the finer figure and also the fact that I cycle with my kids along chosen routes that don't require helmets!It's Johnny and Johanne texter we need to eridicate in cars that is a major problem..Remember we don't pay road tax to share the road with people who enjoy ant and dec on a Saturday night.


----------



## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

The Essex Spurs said:


> Good God saw a lady the other day who had a Chelmer cycling top on and had the best figure ever!! As a male cyclist e nothing wrong with admiring the finer figure and also the fact that I cycle with my kids along chosen routes that don't require helmets!!TJoane Texteron the road.Remember we don't pay road tax to share the road with people who enjoy ant and dec on a Saturday night


You are Molly Bloom, AICMFP.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Bingo


So what's wrong with that?


----------



## Profpointy (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> You are Molly Bloom, AICMFP.



a bit too much punctuation maybe but it's indeed on the same lines now you point it out


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Talk about painting the whole world with a messy brush?


Oh lord. This is like one of those Tom and Jerry cartoons where they're chasing each other and they keep going past same piece of furniture over and over.

Waaah. Pat says all men are nasty. I'm being discriminated against. Boo hoo.

No she doesn't. I would suggest you re-read the OP, but it would be futile.


----------



## ufkacbln (19 Apr 2017)

flake99please said:


> By assuming the post in question by @theclaud was expressing a level of uncertainty, your reply could be deemed as uninvited and/or unsolicited.



If only the post had been clearer?

There was a clear statement of uncertainty


----------



## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I've been told at least twice by different men that my cadence was too low.



Twice. Omigod. I hadn't realised your suffering. 

Well then, you know just what it's like to be a woman.


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I've been told at least twice by different men that my cadence was too low. This observation wasn't asked for but I took it in a constructive manner. Were they being condescending?


Possibly. But they were also being wrong.
Veers off topic
Anyone who says that is guaranteed to be an absolute idiot. There is no ideal cadence. A low cadence does not damage your knees. A higher cadence is not more efficient. It's all memes and myths, backed up with made up anecdata.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Possibly. But they were also being wrong.
> Veers off topic
> Anyone who says that is guaranteed to be an absolute idiot. There is no ideal cadence. A low cadence does not damage your knees. A higher cadence is not more efficient. It's all memes and myths, backed up with made up anecdata.


Dunno as I'm no expert, clearly you are. But there you go, telling me there's " no ideal cadence"
Are you one of these people Pat is talking about?
The cadence referred to was during a TT, I think most people racing or TTing have a fairly high cadence.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> But they were also being wrong.


Why?
Is some form of social interaction not allowed or illegal?


----------



## Dogtrousers (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Are you one of these people Pat is talking about?


Mebbe. And in this instance, I'm right.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Dogtrousers said:


> Mebbe. And in this instance, I'm right.


Yeah that figures.


----------



## Pat "5mph" (19 Apr 2017)

User482 said:


> I thought we were better than this but I appear to have been complacent.


Is the "we" as a cycle chat male collective?
You're not responsible 



Justinslow said:


> Yep, I don't think there's a problem as in the OP, condescending men and women will be condescending to men AND women not just to one party and not just in cycling.
> My wife knows and has experiences of plenty of condescending women at work, is that ok?





Justinslow said:


> No I'm saying that the OP is directed at "male cyclists".


Yes, the op is directed at male cyclists, because this is a cycling forum and because I described some manners of some male cyclists towards female cyclists.
What happens in your wife's work (and in mine) is irrelevant in this discussion.


Justinslow said:


> I've been told at least twice by different men that my cadence was too low. This observation wasn't asked for but I took it in a constructive manner. Were they being condescending?
> I think a lot of these exchanges can be taken either way, perhaps the OP is being a tad defensive and these bods are just trying to help - rightly or wrongly.


Not relevant either what other (male or female) cyclists said to you in the past, or the spirit in which you took the comments.
All I'm saying (again) to all male cyclists on this cycling forum is: I am not taking this behavior anymore.
If you're not like that, apologies, have a giggle when my pump hits the ones that are like that.
Please feel free to tell other cyclists not on this forum: gatecrashing the Glasgow Belles rides, offering unsolicited comments (unasked for help, if you will), is not acceptable to us.
Thank you.


----------



## The Essex Spurs (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> You are Molly Bloom, AICMFP.


Knees up, Molly Bloom Knees, up Molly Bloom............


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Is the "we" as a cycle chat male collective?
> You're not responsible
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for a great concise post (seriously) if only a lot of other posters on this thread had your polite manners.


----------



## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> The cadence referred to was during a TT


It gets worse and worse. People gave you unsolicited advice on going faster at a club event where you were all gathered for the single purpose measuring your speed? Heavens!


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User said:


> If you have read the thread, you should have understood all that already.


Yep I've read the thread, it's a lot like the "helmet debate thread" where posters such as yourself refuse to hear any other view point.


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> It gets worse and worse. People gave you unsolicited advice on going faster at a club event where you were all gathered for the single purpose measuring your speed? Heavens!


I know, the cheek of it, as if I need any help?


----------



## ufkacbln (19 Apr 2017)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Is the "we" as a cycle chat male collective?
> You're not responsible
> 
> 
> ...



Can I stop ducking yet?


----------



## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User said:


> Show me one with some value, and we will see.


I rest my case.


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## r04DiE (19 Apr 2017)

I must say that I never offer advice to anybody, usually for fear of them taking it the wrong way. But sometimes I really do want to. When I see people 's hips rocking because their saddle is too high, when I see them grinding away up hills, when their rear light is very dim. Can't stand to see somebody perhaps danger, or unnecessarily uncomfortable.

Actually, that reminds me, I did chat with a girl at the lights recently just to tell her that her back light wasn't too bright - I just said "I'm not meaning to be a twat, but your back light is a little low, I mean, its okay, you can see it, but you might want to pop the batteries on charge if you can later." I braced myself. She flashed me a smile and said thanks, she thought it might be about time to charge it. We had a bit of a chat about the traffic and the weather and then off we went.

I think that's the one and only time I've ever offered advice to anybody on another bike, not sure why I did it to be honest.

I do always ask if people are okay if I see them by the side of the road, mending stuff, but that has only ever been men, except once, when I was on my motorbike, that was a woman.


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## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Twice. Omigod. I hadn't realised your suffering.
> 
> Well then, you know just what it's like to be a woman.



So on this basis then, no male has a right of reply?


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## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

User13710 said:


> As has been said many times already, there is a vast difference between telling someone their back light isn't very visible and telling that person they want to change their style or bike set-up ... when they might not want to do that at all.
> 
> 
> See above. What reply are you actually offering?


It seems I can't offer anything as I'm not a woman?


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## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> It seems I can't offer anything as I'm not a woman?


No, you precious snowflake. It's because you are giving an example that has happened twice in your life to respond to a problem every women will have encountered twice in one day.


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## Dayvo (19 Apr 2017)

In a nutshell:

If you're a male cyclist who _doesn't_ offer unwanted advice/comments to female riders, please carry on doing so. 

If you're a male cyclist who _does _offer unwanted advice/comment to female riders, please stop and become one of the above. 







End of discussion (hopefully).


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## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> No, you precious snowflake. It's because you are giving an example that has happened twice in your life to respond to a problem every women will have encountered twice in one day.


You see this is the thing, I can't recall my wife or any female friends EVER having a conversation with me (and we do talk) regarding this topic let alone "twice in one day". It just doesn't ring true for me sorry.


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## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Dayvo said:


> End of discussion (hopefully).


Well, it didn't end it 17(?!) pages ago.



jefmcg said:


> If you don't do those things, then everyone should be happy. If you do do those things, then yes the letter is relevant to you.


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## Spinney (19 Apr 2017)

Doesn't happen to me either.
But that does not mean 'it does not ring true' to me. I am aware that these things do happen frequently to other women. For some women, I imagine it is so much a part of 'normal' life that they do not mention it. That does not make it acceptable, however.


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## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> You see this is the thing, I can't recall my wife or any female friends EVER having a conversation with me (and we do talk) regarding this topic let alone "twice in one day". It just doesn't ring true for me sorry.


This ^^^^

You seem to think you are more qualified on sexism than those of us who experience it. 

And if you won't listen to us telling you are experiences, do you wonder that others in your life don't tell you about it?


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## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> This ^^^^
> 
> You seem to think you are more qualified on sexism than those of us who experience it.
> 
> And if you won't listen to us telling you are experiences, do you wonder that others in your life don't tell you about it?


I'm sure they happen, and didn't mean to belittle your own experience, but "twice a day" every day, really? You must live/work in "dickhead central"

Just in my narrow life it's not something that crops up. I don't believe it has anything to do with whether women feel comfortable talking to me about it!


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## david k (19 Apr 2017)

r04DiE said:


> I must say that I never offer advice to anybody, usually for fear of them taking it the wrong way. But sometimes I really do want to. When I see people 's hips rocking because their saddle is too high, when I see them grinding away up hills, when their rear light is very dim. Can't stand to see somebody perhaps danger, or unnecessarily uncomfortable.
> 
> Actually, that reminds me, I did chat with a girl at the lights recently just to tell her that her back light wasn't too bright - I just said "I'm not meaning to be a twat, but your back light is a little low, I mean, its okay, you can see it, but you might want to pop the batteries on charge if you can later." I braced myself. She flashed me a smile and said thanks, she thought it might be about time to charge it. We had a bit of a chat about the traffic and the weather and then off we went.
> 
> ...



Pretty much my view, I don't offer advice as I'm not entirely sure I'm experienced or qualified enough. I do see people riding with their seat low, stomping away and think they could improve their cycling if they just tweaked this or that but I never say anything as I don't feel it's my place or they may get defensive. 

I usually stop or slow down to say "you ok?" If someone has a puncture or similar, don't think this has ever been a woman, but that's just chance, I've never really took notice of gender before slowing down. 
If someone initiated a discussion around the issue I may share my thoughts but that's probably about it. 

I am surprised this is such as issue for females, I've never seen it or witnessed it, but as I'm a man who keeps himself to himself most the time when out cycling I wouldn't necassarily see it either way. I have to therefore asssume its accurate and will bear it in mind if ever I find myself compelled to say something.

My bike skills should be far better than they are so it's more likely that another cyclist female or male would be offering me advice


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## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> I'm sure they happen, and didn't mean to belittle your own experience, but "twice a day" every day, really? You must live/work in "dickhead central"


I don't think @jefmcg is anywhere near Suffolk.


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## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> You see this is the thing, I can't recall my wife or any female friends EVER having a conversation with me (and we do talk) regarding this topic let alone "twice in one day". It just doesn't ring true for me sorry.


Wow it's a total mystery why women don't talk to you about this stuff.


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## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Ooops. TMN to @jefmcg!


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## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> Yep I've read the thread, it's a lot like the "helmet debate thread".


They do indeed have something obvious in common.


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## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

Justinslow said:


> but "twice a day" every day, really?



Joan: "I went to the cinema twice in one day"
Justin: "Really, you go to cinema twice every day?"

Men, please stop adding "all", "every", "none" to what women are saying here. 

"males" does not mean "all males"
saying that your post doesn't make a valid point does not mean no man can post.
"one day" does not mean "every day"


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## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> I was not the only one who failed to "understand" your poor choice of words. I can only apologise for a general response caused by your post not being clear.


Interesting definition of 'apologise'.

I don't consider my words poorly chosen. This is what happened:
Someone made a gag about pissing contests, and explicitly included me in it. I ran with it, as did others. The post which set you off on turbo-patronising mode was as certain as it needed to be for the point of the gag, which is 'pretty sure but wouldn't stake the life of a loved one on it, and because it's a diversionary gag and not what we're talking about, it doesn't much matter'. HTH. And when I said I didn't want your advice, I didn't just mean that I wasn't interested in an irrelevant lecture on bladder sizes in males and females - I meant that I have not wanted, needed or solicited your advice or opinion anywhere on the thread, and anyone with a hide thinner than a rhino's could see that from a hundred paces. Which makes your advice and 'clarification' _unwanted _- and men's unwanted and unsolicited advice to women is _precisely _the subject of the thread.


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## jefmcg (19 Apr 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Joan: "I went to the cinema twice in one day"
> Justin: "Really, you go to cinema twice every day?"
> 
> Men, please stop adding "all", "every", "none" to what women are saying here.
> ...


Notes: 

I do not think adding absolutes is gendered. I only specified "men" because only men were doing it in this thread.
When I say men, I do not mean all men. I just mean the men that are doing the annoying thing specified.


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## swansonj (19 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Interesting definition of 'apologise'.
> 
> I don't consider my words poorly chosen. This is what happened:
> Someone made a gag about pissing contests, and explicitly included me in it. I ran with it, as did others. The post which set you off on turbo-patronising mode was as certain as it needed to be for the point of the gag, which is 'pretty sure but wouldn't stake the life of a loved one on it, and because it's a diversionary gag and not what we're talking about, it doesn't much matter'. HTH. And when I said I didn't want your advice, I didn't just mean that I wasn't interested in an irrelevant lecture on bladder sizes in males and females - I meant that I have not wanted, needed or solicited your advice or opinion anywhere on the thread, and anyone with a hide thinner than a rhino's could see that from a hundred paces. Which makes your advice and 'clarification' _unwanted _- and men's unwanted and unsolicited advice to women is _precisely _the subject of the thread.


"Turbo-patronising". Filed for future use.


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## ufkacbln (19 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Interesting definition of 'apologise'.
> 
> I don't consider my words poorly chosen. This is what happened:
> Someone made a gag about pissing contests, and explicitly included me in it. I ran with it, as did others. The post which set you off on turbo-patronising mode was as certain as it needed to be for the point of the gag, which is 'pretty sure but wouldn't stake the life of a loved one on it, and because it's a diversionary gag and not what we're talking about, it doesn't much matter'. HTH. And when I said I didn't want your advice, I didn't just mean that I wasn't interested in an irrelevant lecture on bladder sizes in males and females - I meant that I have not wanted, needed or solicited your advice or opinion anywhere on the thread, and anyone with a hide thinner than a rhino's could see that from a hundred paces. Which makes your advice and 'clarification' _unwanted _- and men's unwanted and unsolicited advice to women is _precisely _the subject of the thread.




Your misinterpretation, your tantrum, you are of course entitled to both


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## Justinslow (19 Apr 2017)

theclaud said:


> Wow it's a total mystery why women don't talk to you about this stuff.


Yawn.


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## theclaud (19 Apr 2017)

Cunobelin said:


> Your misinterpretation, your tantrum, you are of course entitled to both


 You just cannot stop yourself, can you?


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## Moderators (19 Apr 2017)

*Mod Note:*
OK, this thread has more than run it's course and is going nowhere new, so time to Close.


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