# Titanium Folder - Kickstarter



## Origamist (4 Sep 2015)

This has caught my eye:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/330901966/helixtm-the-worlds-best-folding-bike












The price is very good compared to Brommies. Folded size obviously larger with 24" wheels, but it's still compact and the folding mechanism is clever. 

I hope it rides as well as it looks...


10 Speed Derailleur: 1700 CAD (approx 1300 USD, 1140 Euro)
I might invest!


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## MossCommuter (4 Sep 2015)

Sitting folded in that car boot it looks enormous


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## mickle (4 Sep 2015)

The swingarm looks feeble.


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## Origamist (4 Sep 2015)

mickle said:


> The swingarm looks feeble.



If I go for one, I'll report back with any mechanical failures! I've trashed a Brommie, Birdy and Trek folder in the past, so I have form...




MossCommuter said:


> Sitting folded in that car boot it looks enormous



At least they were able to squeeze two in the boot!

I'm a little more worried about the limitations on chainring size. If it can't accommodate a significantly bigger chainring without fouling the frame, it's a non-starter for me (it comes with a default 38t).


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## Pale Rider (4 Sep 2015)

Origamist said:


> If I go for one, I'll report back with any mechanical failures! I've trashed a Brommie, Birdy and Trek folder in the past, so I have form...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The gearing is a good point, although the bike does have 24" wheels so it might be similar to the middle ring on a 26" mountain bike.


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## TheDoctor (4 Sep 2015)

Well, a 38T chainring gives an 81 inch gear, and hence 27 mph at a cadence of about 100. How fast do you want to go on a folder?
My Brommie has a 99" top gear. I've never needed it.


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## TheDoctor (4 Sep 2015)

I'm with Mickle on the swingarm though.


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## FrankCrank (4 Sep 2015)

....saw this a while back, the product seems very genuine and a real stab at something more than a run-of-the-mill folder, spec sounds great for the money. 

Hope they get a UK distributor, so the shipping costs are low, initial interest looks like this is viable proposition. 

800 quid - if only I had that much spare dosh - would be worth a gamble I think.............


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## Origamist (4 Sep 2015)

Pale Rider said:


> The gearing is a good point, although the bike does have 24" wheels so it might be similar to the middle ring on a 26" mountain bike.



Yes, broadly similar, but a bit lower.



TheDoctor said:


> Well, a 38T chainring gives an 81 inch gear, and hence 27 mph at a cadence of about 100. How fast do you want to go on a folder?
> My Brommie has a 99" top gear. I've never needed it.



With the 38t and 11-36 default set-up, you're looking at 23" to 76" GI. I'd like more top end than that, but I think the majority of folder users would prob agree with you.


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## Fab Foodie (4 Sep 2015)

TheDoctor said:


> Well, a 38T chainring gives an 81 inch gear, and hence 27 mph at a cadence of about 100. How fast do you want to go on a folder?
> My Brommie has a 99" top gear. I've never needed it.


Having down-geared the Brommie for touring use, I really miss the original big top gear on my S6L for downhill and hooning along on the flat. So much so that I'm looking to upgrade to a double chainring and deraileur set-up next year.


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## TheDoctor (4 Sep 2015)

I reckon a 52/40 double would work. Can't see an easy way to get a front mech on, but assuming you didn't want to swap chainrings all that often it should be OK.
And 38/11 on a 24 inch wheel is definitely 81 inch on my calculator...


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## Origamist (4 Sep 2015)

TheDoctor said:


> I reckon a 52/40 double would work. Can't see an easy way to get a front mech on, but assuming you didn't want to swap chainrings all that often it should be OK.
> And 38/11 on a 24 inch wheel is definitely 81 inch on my calculator...



The designer says the frame is suitable for single ring applications only, but there might be a bodge...

The wheels are nominally 24" - but even with the stock 507/40 tyres the actual circumference is only a smidge over 23". This is why the GI is not as high as your calculator suggests.


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## TheDoctor (4 Sep 2015)

The double chainring thing was at FF for his Brommie..


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## RecordAceFromNew (5 Sep 2015)

mickle said:


> The swingarm looks feeble.



Agreed. Can't see any reason why not increasing the length of the tiny horizontal brace to a full triangulation.



Origamist said:


> The wheels are nominally 24" - but even with the stock 507/40 tyres the actual circumference is only a smidge over 23". This is why the GI is not as high as your calculator suggests.



23.16 x 38 / 11 = 80. The gearing range seems sensible to me, and in any case can easily be raised by a larger chainring.

I prefer my folder to have rim brakes, and for the design DP calipers might have been possible - discs are just too easily bent when knocked about in the boot etc. Having said that I like it a lot, if they can deliver it at the price. It is what a modern Brompton should be like and I really hope these guys succeed - Brompton have rested on their laurels for too long.


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## shouldbeinbed (5 Sep 2015)

It's already had a bit of an airing in the Chedech thread, it looks good for the price, very Montague like, but I'd like to see how some of the claims (e.g. smallest folded) stack up in reality against other bikes. 

More relatively affordable, conventional (ovno) looking, quality folders making the genre more mainstream can only be a good thing for, particularly vs LRT urban tram systems, encouraging transport authorities to engage and support multi modal travel rather than prohibition on access to your bike at both ends of a journey. 

More power to their elbow.


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## Origamist (5 Sep 2015)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> Agreed. Can't see any reason why not increasing the length of the tiny horizontal brace to a full triangulation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. I was going to contradict you as well but I double checked and you're right on the 80" GI, I must have hit a 6 instead of an 8 when I bashed the chainring size into my calculator. Apologies to TheDoctor.

However, for me it's still too low. I don't want to be riding in the bottom two sprockets on the flat. I don't think it's as simple as just swopping out to a larger chainring, or at least not a considerably larger ring (i.e 50t) as in the FAQs it raises the issue of fouling the frame with larger rings. Hopefully, they will clarify the max usable size soon.

The rotors are more vulnerable. Whether better braking in the wet and the lack of rim wear are an acceptable trade off is going to depend on how you transport the bike when folded (and the frequency of course).


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## Origamist (5 Sep 2015)

[QUOTE 3889597, member: 259"]I think it looks very nice, but I've learned the dangers of being an early adopter of anything, so I'm out.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I can't see myself investing at this stage. However, I'm off to Canada next Summer so there will hopefully be some reviews and feedback by then. Perhaps warranty claims over the rear swing arm...




shouldbeinbed said:


> It's already had a bit of an airing in the Chedech thread, it looks good for the price, very Montague like, but I'd like to see how some of the claims (e.g. smallest folded) stack up in reality against other bikes.
> 
> More power to their elbow.



Yeah, the PR spin on the "smallest folded" is BS. It's the smallest 24" wheel folder that I can see, but hardly in Brommie territory.

The wheeling of the bike by the saddle is very smooth, by the looks of it.


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## zigzag (5 Sep 2015)

i like the concept, however the time-trial bike geometry isn't best suited for the folding bike, also to ride in this island without mudguards - not something i'd be looking to do, especially as the dirt would not allow to slide the seatpost down


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## Origamist (5 Sep 2015)

zigzag said:


> i like the concept, however the time-trial bike geometry isn't best suited for the folding bike, also to ride in this island without mudguards - not something i'd be looking to do, especially as the dirt would not allow to slide the seatpost down



I agree on the mudguards, but it looks like they're planning on making the frame mudguard compatible as the development process continues.


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## RecordAceFromNew (5 Sep 2015)

zigzag said:


> i like the concept, however the time-trial bike geometry isn't best suited for the folding bike, also to ride in this island without mudguards - not something i'd be looking to do, especially as the dirt would not allow to slide the seatpost down



The kickstart page says "Helix will support a range of bicycle accessories such as *mud guards,* racks, lights and more."

Can you explain why you feel it has a TT bike geometry? Within the confines of a single frame size and a single handlebar height common to most folders, which dimensional/handling issue do you see?


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## zigzag (5 Sep 2015)

the seat tube angle is very steep (77deg) which makes you fall forward in normal riding position. with aerobars it's great as all your body is rotated forward in reference to bb. falling forward is the main cause of numb and tingly fingers on longer rides.


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## threebikesmcginty (7 Sep 2015)

I quite like the look of this, @Origamist have you looked into any import duty, VAT, etc that you might be liable for?


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## Origamist (7 Sep 2015)

threebikesmcginty said:


> I quite like the look of this, @Origamist have you looked into any import duty, VAT, etc that you might be liable for?



Don't be daft - that would involve proper research!

I've never imported a bike from N America (and don't plan to) but I guess you'll get a 20% VAT hit and (is it) 14% duty? That's from the total cost though - bike, shipping and insurance etc and it would make the price a lot less appealing. Someone else might have a better idea on the costs though. That's why I would take it back in a suitcase!


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## threebikesmcginty (7 Sep 2015)

Origamist said:


> Don't be daft - that would involve proper research!
> 
> I've never imported a bike from N America (and don't plan to) but I guess you'll get a 20% VAT hit and (is it) 14% duty? That's from the total cost though - bike, shipping and insurance etc and it would make the price a lot less appealing. Someone else might have a better idea on the costs though. That's why I would take it back in a suitcase!



I bought a Cannondale back from America 20 years ago, the nice customs man didn't charge me any duty/vat or anything, he said as a bike was fabricated from individual components, none of which added up to the threshold figure, it didn't qualify. I think he fancied me.


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## MossCommuter (7 Sep 2015)

When I bought something off Kick Starter shipping charges and import duties have been included in the price.

I sort of assumed that was the standard practice.


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## Origamist (7 Sep 2015)

threebikesmcginty said:


> I bought a Cannondale back from America 20 years ago, the nice customs man didn't charge me any duty/vat or anything, he said as a bike was fabricated from individual components, none of which added up to the threshold figure, it didn't qualify. I think he fancied me.



I can imagine in your youth that you had something of the Rutger Hauer about you - so it's v likely that he would have been instantly smitten...



MossCommuter said:


> When I bought something off Kick Starter shipping charges and import duties have been included in the price.
> 
> I sort of assumed that was the standard practice.



Really?! I hope that's the case, but I can't believe you would be able dodge HMRC so easily...


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## Kell (7 Sep 2015)

I don't think it's direct competition for a Brompton, but against other full-sized folders, it's an interesting premise.

It folds way smaller than any of my previous full-sized bikes, and it looks to be more useful than an Airnimal or Montague because you don't have to take the front wheel off. For commuting, rather than just storage, ease of fold is key, and taking wet wheels off is not easy to do on a packed station platform while you're trying to squeeze onto a train.

Hope it makes it.


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## Origamist (9 Sep 2015)

Looking at the folded dimensions of the Helix, it's actually not that far off the Brompton. It's certainly more compact than a lot of 20" folders - which is really quite impressive, given the 24" wheels. If the folding mechanism is reliable and it rides well, this will be a big step forward.


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## threebikesmcginty (9 Sep 2015)

Origamist said:


> Looking at the folded dimensions of the Helix, it's actually not that far off the Brompton. It's certainly more compact than a lot of 20" folders - which is really quite impressive, given the 24" wheels. If the folding mechanism is reliable and it rides well, this will be a big step forward.



I compared too, it's same height, 100mm wider and 25mm less in depth. It's a lot lighter though, something like 6 or 7lbs which is a consideration if you need the carry the thing for any distance. Wonder if the kickstarter is in the C2W...


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## shouldbeinbed (9 Sep 2015)

threebikesmcginty said:


> I compared too, it's same height, 100mm wider and 25mm less in depth. It's a lot lighter though, something like 6 or 7lbs which is a consideration if you need the carry the thing for any distance. Wonder if the kickstarter is in the C2W...


It looks as if this rolls ok folded up too so hopefully carrying would be limited to stairs and on/off stuff, but fair do's, they are the places where less weight is a boon.


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## Kell (9 Sep 2015)

It's always annoyed me that no one else thought of a system that uses the bike wheels to roll it along.

Bromptons (literally) fall down on that front.


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## Origamist (9 Sep 2015)

Kell said:


> It's always annoyed me that no one else thought of a system that uses the bike wheels to roll it along.
> 
> Bromptons (literally) fall down on that front.




Other folding bikes have been able to use the bike's wheels to roll when folded. Mark Sanders' _Strida _being the obvious example.

What the Helix seems to be able to do is combine a small fold, with larger wheels, at a light(ish) weight and still roll very smoothly when folded.

As you can see, I'm almost persuaded...


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## potsy (9 Sep 2015)

I like it, not sure if I'd ever use one but maybe one day.

Always been put off Bromptons because of their small wheels, this looks much better.


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## FrankCrank (9 Sep 2015)

....been following this thread, and the Helix project in general. 

I'm more and more convinced that this folder is gonna fill a yawning gap in the folder world, and once it gets past its 'bedding in' period, I suspect I could be tempted.

I'm not brave enough to be one of the pioneer buyers of this new bike. It will no doubt go through a few iterations before becoming a mature offering - the dilemma as always being when to commit. 

I have a 20" wheeled folder at the moment, but realise the limitations of smaller wheels. The helix fits the void nicely between Brommie and Montague, a good compromise IMHO............


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## Kell (9 Sep 2015)

Origamist said:


> Other folding bikes have been able to use the bike's wheels to roll when folded. Mark Sanders' _Strida _being the obvious example.
> 
> What the Helix seems to be able to do is combine a small fold, with larger wheels, at a light(ish) weight and still roll very smoothly when folded.
> 
> As you can see, I'm almost persuaded...



Should have clarified. Other bikes that I'd want to ride...


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## Origamist (14 Sep 2015)

Looks like they're going with a bigger chainring as standard: 



> We've also listened to your feedback and are adjusting our spec. We've changed the size of the chainring to 42t. Helix now has a more usable gear range making it more suitable for steep hills and descents. We're also making slight changes to the geometry so that Helix can accommodate a longer seatpost up from 350mm to 400mm. This will not affect the folded size.



This is good news (for me at least)!


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## shouldbeinbed (15 Oct 2015)

Kell said:


> It's always annoyed me that no one else thought of a system that uses the bike wheels to roll it along.
> 
> Bromptons (literally) fall down on that front.


sorry just noticed this mooching over old threads, Decathlon's B'Twin Tilt range are designed to do this, seatpost left up as the handle and both wheels roll beautifully, but it is a bulky unit when folded so a) necessary and b) maybe a limiting factor to places that may accept the bike even folded


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