# Struggling with clipless pedals rant



## Welsh wheels (29 Apr 2017)

Sorry but another clipless pedals thread. I have been on four rides so far with my new clipless pedals. I haven't fallen off yet, but I have had a few close calls. A vehicle was reversing into a drive and I only managed to unclip in time. A few other times I have failed to unclip the first time and have only just managed to unclip in time the second time round. Another thing that has happened a few times is that I have unclipped but then my foot has gone back in to being clipped by accident. I'm struggling just with the idea that I might not be able to unclip sometime. I like the performance benefits and I will stick at them for a while but at the moment they seems quite dangerous around town. I've had lots of helpful advice about them so far and so not really looking for advice (unless you want to ) and I'm not sure there's much I haven't already heard. I just wanted to get it off my chest.


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## numbnuts (29 Apr 2017)

Perseverance will win the day


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## Welsh wheels (29 Apr 2017)

numbnuts said:


> Perseverance will win the day


Thanks, I'm living in hope that if I get used to them they won't feel like a death trap.


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## ianrauk (29 Apr 2017)

Clipless is not for everybody. If further down the line you haven't got used to them then just go back to flats.


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## raleighnut (29 Apr 2017)

Try swapping to SH 56 Multi-release cleats until you get more used to clipless.

https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...ahUKEwiPv_fsw8nTAhWiJcAKHXegDhEQwg8IMA&adurl=


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## Crackle (29 Apr 2017)

One day it'll just click..............


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## oldwheels (29 Apr 2017)

Practice unclipping at random for a while till you get more used to them. I kept mine for about 3 years and then dumped them. One of my better decisions and I now use flats only.


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## Welsh wheels (29 Apr 2017)

raleighnut said:


> Try swapping to SH 56 Multi-release cleats until you get more used to clipless.
> 
> https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...ahUKEwiPv_fsw8nTAhWiJcAKHXegDhEQwg8IMA&adurl=


Thanks, I might invest in some of those if things don't get any easier.


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## Racing roadkill (29 Apr 2017)

You'll learn how to anticipate when to unclip fairly quickly, or you'll end up with lots of bruises. That's what it comes down to, learn to anticipate when to unclip. If in doubt, unclip. Better safe than sorry.


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## Markymark (29 Apr 2017)

oldwheels said:


> Practice unclipping at random for a while till you get more used to them. I kept mine for about 3 years and then dumped them. One of my better decisions and I now use flats only.


Me too. Much happier.


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## Racing roadkill (29 Apr 2017)

raleighnut said:


> Try swapping to SH 56 Multi-release cleats until you get more used to clipless.
> 
> https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...ahUKEwiPv_fsw8nTAhWiJcAKHXegDhEQwg8IMA&adurl=


They work well, but I've found that they can become uncliped when you'd rather they didn't, on account of their ability to release on a pull up. I quite like them on my urban / light trail bike's shoes , but anything more involved or very rough stuff, and they can be a bit of a 'mare.


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## jonny jeez (29 Apr 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> Sorry but another clipless pedals thread. I have been on four rides so far with my new clipless pedals. I haven't fallen off yet, but I have had a few close calls. A vehicle was reversing into a drive and I only managed to unclip in time. A few other times I have failed to unclip the first time and have only just managed to unclip in time the second time round. Another thing that has happened a few times is that I have unclipped but then my foot has gone back in to being clipped by accident. I'm struggling just with the idea that I might not be able to unclip sometime. I like the performance benefits and I will stick at them for a while but at the moment they seems quite dangerous around town. I've had lots of helpful advice about them so far and so not really looking for advice (unless you want to ) and I'm not sure there's much I haven't already heard. I just wanted to get it off my chest.


Its possible, in at least one of the instances you describe, that you are actually unclipping roo early.

Either way, as others have said try a multi directional pedal/cleat system. Or go back to pedals.

Its odd, I never had any problems getting used to clipless, so perhaps some riders are just not meant to use them, or ride In a way that means the systems are not right for them.


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## MossCommuter (29 Apr 2017)

It'll become habit. You'll develop a sixth sense, it's almost as if I'm unclipped anticipating a stop before I realise I am about to, IYKWIM

Accidental clipping back in happens sometimes, try to pedal on the arches of your feet if you want to stay unclipped for a couple of rotations.

I find flat pedals almost impossible now with my feet coming off the pedals on the upstroke. When in flats i still kick my heals out as I am slowing. Habit.


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## Dayvo (29 Apr 2017)

If you have the chance to go to a spinning class, you could try with them there.

Naturally there's no risk of falling of, or coming to a stop, but if you can repeat the clicking in/out several times, finding out which is your dominant foot, then it should help you when you're out on the road. It worked for me.


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## Pale Rider (29 Apr 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> I like the performance benefits.



Worth bearing in mind there are no direct performance benefits from clipless.

Unless you spin at a very high cadence and have trouble with your feet flying off platform pedals.

I say 'direct' benefit, because some cyclists prefer the feel of being connected to the bike.

A happy, 'connected' cyclist is more likely to apply more a bit more power than one who feels less at one with the bike.

The Global Cycling Network channel did a video to test platforms v clipless.

They found no detectable benefit at their club roadie level, and one of them put out marginally more power on platforms - within the realm of measurement error.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM


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## S-Express (29 Apr 2017)

Seven year-olds can do it with ease. Just keep that in mind...


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## Racing roadkill (29 Apr 2017)

oldwheels said:


> Practice unclipping at random for a while till you get more used to them. I kept mine for about 3 years and then dumped them. One of my better decisions and I now use flats only.



Yeah, flat pedals, sooo much better than clipless, they are the future, definitely, or not. The best thing about clipless pedals are that you can maintain a smooth power output, given that your Cadence can be kept more consistent. This results in a relatively quicker avarage speed, for an optimal effort, which is far less fatiguing on a long ride, but hey, don't let a little thing like scientific facts and actual data sway any judgements.


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## Drago (29 Apr 2017)

Uh-oh, someone has mentioned the GCN boys.


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## Mr Celine (29 Apr 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> The Global Cycling Network channel did a video to test platforms v clipless.
> 
> They found no detectable benefit at their club roadie level, and one of them put out marginally more power on platforms - within the realm of measurement error.



I'll bear that in mind next time I ride on a treadmill, or on an equally smooth pot hole free surface, but I'm not likely to be doing either any time soon. 

Back in the real world I now find riding on flats like driving a car without a seat belt. It just doesn't feel right.


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## winjim (29 Apr 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> Yeah, flat pedals, sooo much better than clipless, they are the future, definitely, or not. The best thing about clipless pedals are that you can maintain a smooth power output, given that your Cadence can be kept more consistent. This results in a relatively quicker avarage speed, for an optimal effort, which is far less fatiguing on a long ride, but hey, don't let a little thing like scientific facts and actual data sway any judgements.


That's very important when you're riding about town.


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## Drago (29 Apr 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> I'll bear that in mind next time I ride on a treadmill, or on an equally smooth pot hole free surface, but I'm not likely to be doing either any time soon.
> 
> Back in the real world I now find riding on flats like driving a car without a seat belt. It just doesn't feel right.



And the hissing rain especially.


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## GuyBoden (29 Apr 2017)

Flat pedals have always made my feet ache after about 50miles, but for shorts rides around town in traffic they're great...............


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## tommaguzzi (29 Apr 2017)

Welsh Wheels. Some questions you need to ask yourself.
What benefit are these pedals and shoes providing?
can i measure any benefits?
Is using them more dangerous?
Is any benefit they may provide outweighed by the disadvantages using them?
Am i just using them now to justify the purchace cost?


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## Lonestar (29 Apr 2017)

Four rides is nothing.You don't get used to them straight away and you've got to give them a chance...I found a pic of my Audax on my computer today and it was fitted with SPD's ten years ago when new...I've been using them longer than that though and now ride fixie with them fitted....and yes in the early days I had clipless moments and fell off....One of them being down Leyton High Street on a match day.Quite embarrassing..

I don't think you'd regret it if you persevered....I certainly don't but when I was using flats they kept ruining my trainers so I had to do something.


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## S-Express (29 Apr 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> Yeah, flat pedals, sooo much better than clipless, they are the future, definitely, or not. The best thing about clipless pedals are that you can maintain a smooth power output, given that your Cadence can be kept more consistent. This results in a relatively quicker avarage speed, for an optimal effort, which is far less fatiguing on a long ride, but hey, don't let a little thing like scientific facts and actual data sway any judgements.



Science, eh....  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807



> Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev . min (-1) and 60 % of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP.


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## Profpointy (29 Apr 2017)

S-Express said:


> Science, eh....  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807



So are all the cycle racers wrong to have them then? That would be quite some claim


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## S-Express (29 Apr 2017)

Profpointy said:


> So are all the cycle racers wrong to have them then? That would be quite some claim



Not at all. Foot retention is a key component of being able to pedal effectively. But there's demonstrably no speed advantage.


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## Mr Celine (29 Apr 2017)

S-Express said:


> Science, eh....  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18418807



And in other news, lab tests have shown that VW group diesel cars emit nothing more harmful than unicorn farts. 

Back in the real world.....


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## smokeysmoo (29 Apr 2017)

I don't know what pedal system your using but if you can adjust the tension make sure they're not too tight.


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## S-Express (29 Apr 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> And in other news, lab tests have shown that VW group diesel cars emit nothing more harmful than unicorn farts.
> 
> Back in the real world.....



Manufacturer led research v independent science - hmm, that's a tough one. There are other studies which show the same/similar findings. How many will it take to overcome your cognitive dissonance? - http://iom3.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19424280.2016.1140817?src=recsys&journalCode=tfws20


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## gaijintendo (29 Apr 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> You'll learn how to anticipate when to unclip fairly quickly, or you'll end up with lots of bruises. That's what it comes down to, learn to anticipate when to unclip. If in doubt, unclip. Better safe than sorry.



I suspect the constant need to anticipate things is probably a really good thing in terms of your safety. It's a bit like the spike in a steering wheel analogy, except there are tangible benefits too.


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## Profpointy (29 Apr 2017)

S-Express said:


> Manufacturer led research v independent science - hmm, that's a tough one. There are other studies which show the same/similar findings. How many will it take to overcome your cognitive dissonance? - http://iom3.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19424280.2016.1140817?src=recsys&journalCode=tfws20



Well why do I find it "easier" to cycle when clipped in? For me at least it's worth the "special shoes" thing, which I'd usually regard as a big nuisance. I sympathise with the "can't be arsed" view of clipless pedals, or toe clips, but saying they're pointless is frankly silly


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## S-Express (29 Apr 2017)

Profpointy said:


> but saying they're pointless is frankly silly



Good job nobody said that, then...


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## Ian H (29 Apr 2017)

I must say that, having moved to clipless sometime in the last century, I hardly notice the unclipping* action—the foot goes down when I stop. Much less faff than clips and straps. One thing I have found (with SPDs) is they work perfectly well on minimum tension, even on fixed, so no need to make life more difficult by winding them tight (new ones, I loosen off until the screw is free then just tighten until it bites).

* Yes, I know.


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## dave r (29 Apr 2017)

I tried clipless when they first came out, I didn't get on with them and went back to clips and straps, some years later I went back to clipless but still couldn't get on with them and again went back to clips and straps. Middle of last year I brought a pair of spd click R pedals, the ones that are light release, and I'm still using them. These are the first ones I'm comfortable with and I'm starting to get to the stage where I'm releasing without having to think about it, I've also had a couple of unplanned releases recently, pulling away from junctions and recon I may have to move to something thats a bit tighter.


http://www.tredz.co.uk/.Shimano-PD-T400-Click-R-Pedal_58409.htm


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## mjr (29 Apr 2017)

Profpointy said:


> Well why do I find it "easier" to cycle when clipped in?


Maybe you're poor at positioning your feet, maybe it's the placebo effect, maybe it's something else. There really doesn't seem to be any scientifically proven benefit, does there?

Racers are sponsored and there's more money in fancy shoes and pedals than firm shoes and rubber blocks, but if you like sugar pills, feel free to keep sucking on Minstrels!

I'm not sure how long I used clips before going back to plain pedals but I never went to clipless cleats because I can't trust my knees and ankles which sometimes lock up anyway.


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## wxbull (29 Apr 2017)

took me about a month to get used to my sl's! best thing I ever did!


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## Rohloff Boy (30 Apr 2017)

I started with Shimano SPD Clipless back in 2000 but hated them, gave them a year but still no joy.

I then switched to SpeedPlay Frogs (SS), what a difference, cycled from Manchester to Scotland a few times, so they have had more than a soak test over the years.


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## Vantage (30 Apr 2017)

I started off on Onza Ho pedals which used elastomers instead of steel springs. In hot weather they would go all soft and release at the slightest bump and in cold weather they'd go rock hard and keep my feet locked no matter how much I struggled to get free. I don't miss them.
However, back on topic....in time you will get used to clipless pedals as you did when starting cycling. You get on your bike and ride without thinking bout it right? Same with spd's. 
I have platform bits clipped into one side of my pedals so I'm not having to fart about swapping pedals if I'm using 'normal' shoes though.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B0...=16PGQB3YBF6K0W4ETM6C&dpPl=1&dpID=81lC7g+ss5L


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## Mo1959 (30 Apr 2017)

I was always sure I would remain with flatties but am now extremely happy with SPD,s on their loosest setting and SH56 cleats. Touch wood, no falls so far although I have had two unexpected stops when I panicked and just pulled and they released. I briefly tried flats again a couple of months ago and didn't like them much any more. It definitely does become habit to release them without much thought the more you use them.


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## nickyboy (30 Apr 2017)

Crackle said:


> One day it'll just click..............



Or if not, you will go clunk


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## Drago (30 Apr 2017)

I like mine about 2/3 firm. Shows what a wide range of tastes and needs different people have


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## Lonestar (30 Apr 2017)

Vantage said:


> I started off on Onza Ho pedals which used elastomers instead of steel springs. In hot weather they would go all soft and release at the slightest bump and in cold weather they'd go rock hard and keep my feet locked no matter how much I struggled to get free. I don't miss them.
> However, back on topic....in time you will get used to clipless pedals as you did when starting cycling. You get on your bike and ride without thinking bout it right? Same with spd's.
> I have platform bits clipped into one side of my pedals so I'm not having to fart about swapping pedals if I'm using 'normal' shoes though.
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B003BHBOP4/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_200_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=16PGQB3YBF6K0W4ETM6C&dpPl=1&dpID=81lC7g+ss5L



Good idea I like that.I've always managed though for the last twenty years I've been using SPD's.

Apparently reading the reviews they aren't so good.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/bbb-bpd-90-feetrest-spd-pedal-adaptors/


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## Mr Celine (30 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Maybe you're poor at positioning your feet, maybe it's the placebo effect, maybe it's something else. There really doesn't seem to be any scientifically proven benefit, does there?
> 
> Racers are sponsored and there's more money in fancy shoes and pedals than firm shoes and rubber blocks, but if you like sugar pills, feel free to keep sucking on Minstrels!
> 
> I'm not sure how long I used clips before going back to plain pedals *but I never went to clipless cleats *because I can't trust my knees and ankles which sometimes lock up anyway.



So why are you giving advice on clipless pedals if you've never tried them?


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## Smokin Joe (30 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Racers are sponsored and there's more money in fancy shoes and pedals than firm shoes and rubber blocks, but if you like sugar pills, feel free to keep sucking on Minstrels!


Do you seriously think racing cyclists have been riding with their feet attached to the pedals for well over a century only because sponsors make them? There are real benefits to clipless pedals, the first being a safety one. Just because some people can't manage them and are happier on flats doesn't alter that.


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## Crackle (30 Apr 2017)

There are two reasons I ride clipped pedals and before that toe clips: To keep my feet on the pedals and to stop my right foot pigeon toeing out too far and my heel fouling the stay. If there are other benefits to be had from power around the stroke, I don't get them. I'm a lumpy pedaller in terms of power application.


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## PhilDawson8270 (30 Apr 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> Do you seriously think racing cyclists have been riding with their feet attached to the pedals for well over a century only because sponsors make them? There are real benefits to clipless pedals, the first being a safety one. Just because some people can't manage them and are happier on flats doesn't alter that.



IMO, this is the real benefit.

Sprinting in the rain, I'd certainly rather be attached to the pedal. High speed cycling, I'd again certainly preferred to be attached.

But more efficient, I'm not buying it.


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## CanucksTraveller (30 Apr 2017)

Just try them a bit longer, the knack should be coming to you pretty soon. It's not a mystical art or anything, once you get it you do it without thinking. 

And if you don't, it's not the end of the world... other pedals work _about_ as well (which as you can see is open to debate!) Clipless just feel "right" for many, I'm certainly one of those.


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## Welsh wheels (30 Apr 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> Do you seriously think racing cyclists have been riding with their feet attached to the pedals for well over a century only because sponsors make them? There are real benefits to clipless pedals, the first being a safety one. Just because some people can't manage them and are happier on flats doesn't alter that.


What safety advantages would you say there are to clipless pedals? At the moment they seem more dangerous, so if there are safety advantages to them I'll be a happier man.


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## Milzy (30 Apr 2017)

Racing roadkill said:


> They work well, but I've found that they can become uncliped when you'd rather they didn't, on account of their ability to release on a pull up. I quite like them on my urban / light trail bike's shoes , but anything more involved or very rough stuff, and they can be a bit of a 'mare.


I've heard this a lot but I use them with no problems. Have my pedals tight so they feel the same as standard really.


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## Drago (30 Apr 2017)

For me, keeping secure on uneven surfaces, bumps, and in the wet. I get on fine with them, have never had a moment.

I have a theory - its a controversial one, but one I've developed in 9 years as a cycle trainer. And that is many people have problems with clipless because they move to them before their fundamental cycling skills are up to scratch. 

In your case Welshy I doubt my theory will apply, aimed as it is more at returnees to cycling who, with creditable enthusiasm, rush out and go clipless because they see their chums, or that Bradley Armstrong fellow using them.


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## Welsh wheels (30 Apr 2017)

Drago said:


> For me, keeping secure on uneven surfaces, bumps, and in the wet. I get on fine with them, have never had a moment.
> 
> I have a theory - its a controversial one, but one I've developed in 9 years as a cycle trainer. And that is many people have problems with clipless because they move to them before their fundamental cycling skills are up to scratch.
> 
> In your case Welshy I doubt my theory will apply, aimed as it is more at returnees to cycling who, with creditable enthusiasm, rush out and go clipless because they see their chums, or that Bradley Armstrong fellow using them.


I have been riding for about 7 years, but since getting clipless pedals, I feel a bit like I need to learn how to ride again! It's a different skillset.


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## smutchin (30 Apr 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> A few other times I have failed to unclip the first time and have only just managed to unclip in time the second time round.



Huh?


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## Welsh wheels (30 Apr 2017)

smutchin said:


> Huh?


A sudden hazard appeared, I tried to unclip but failed, due I think to twisting from the centre of my foot rather than the ankle. I only just managed to unclip before falling off after trying the second time.


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## Smokin Joe (30 Apr 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> What safety advantages would you say there are to clipless pedals? At the moment they seem more dangerous, so if there are safety advantages to them I'll be a happier man.


You're foot won't slip off the pedal, with possibly catastrophic consequences. 

Like I said, clipless (Like everything else) are not for everyone, but I've used them since they came out, I've never had a problem with unclipping which was instinctive from day one and I would not ride without them.


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## vickster (30 Apr 2017)

Don't overthink it, just be ready to unclip. Keep your eyes on what's going on around you, unclip early, even too early coming to lights or an obstacle, don't ride too close to the car in front. It'll become second nature soon enough 

I can have weeks, even months off the bike, but never have an issue using clipless after a lay off


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## Welsh wheels (30 Apr 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> You're foot won't slip off the pedal, with possibly catastrophic consequences.
> 
> Like I said, clipless (Like everything else) are not for everyone, but I've used them since they came out, I've never had a problem with unclipping which was instinctive from day one and I would not ride without them.


Ok thanks


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## Banjo (30 Apr 2017)

If your a racer who needs to put in sudden massive bursts of power in a sprint or if you ride fixed then you may need to be attached.For the average cyclist please your self but dont be influenced by the nonsense spouted about the speed and safety advantages of clipless.

A decent set of flat pedals with pins such as DMR V8 or similar will not let your foot slip.

Mine never do on rides up to 300 km .
Also its much easier to restart on a steep hill on flats and you can wear whatever you find comfortable at no cost to your average speed.


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## Mr Celine (30 Apr 2017)

As others have said, the safety advantage is your feet remaining on the pedals even on wet, rough or bumpy roads. It can also be safer to bunny hop over pot holes rather than risk swerving into traffic.

And Welsh Wheels if you haven't fallen off yet you're doing a lot better than l did when I went clipless.


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## SpokeyDokey (30 Apr 2017)

@Welsh wheels 

You've already had the answer upt-hread.

Get some SH56's - they are fool-proof for Newbies to clipless.

£12 or thereabouts and 10 minutes with an Allen Key.


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## screenman (30 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Maybe you're poor at positioning your feet, maybe it's the placebo effect, maybe it's something else. There really doesn't seem to be any scientifically proven benefit, does there?
> 
> Racers are sponsored and there's more money in fancy shoes and pedals than firm shoes and rubber blocks, but if you like sugar pills, feel free to keep sucking on Minstrels!
> 
> I'm not sure how long I used clips before going back to plain pedals but I never went to clipless cleats because I can't trust my knees and ankles which sometimes lock up anyway.



I think Shimano would pay handsomely for somebody to win the Tour in flats, a marketing win for sure.


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## al3xsh (30 Apr 2017)

SpokeyDokey said:


> @Welsh wheels
> 
> You've already had the answer upt-hread.
> 
> ...



This!

SH56 multi release cleats and dialing the retention out to the minimum that will hold the cleats in.

In the last 2 1/2 years riding clip less I haven't had my foot slip off the pedal and the pedal smack me in the shin! I had that happen several times before switching!

A


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## Vantage (30 Apr 2017)

Lonestar said:


> Good idea I like that.I've always managed though for the last twenty years I've been using SPD's.
> 
> Apparently reading the reviews they aren't so good.
> 
> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/bbb-bpd-90-feetrest-spd-pedal-adaptors/



To be fair, I have the Shimano branded models. Although they are both probably made in the same factory. Mine have been on the bike over 5 years without incident. Clipping them in isn't easy but is doable.


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## Lonestar (30 Apr 2017)

screenman said:


> I think Shimano would pay handsomely for somebody to win the Tour in flats, a marketing win for sure.



Do you think Wiggins would go for this?

I love fancy shoes and pedals.


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## mjr (30 Apr 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> So why are you giving advice on clipless pedals if you've never tried them?


Firstly, clips are more effective than clipless because you really can push up... but no one really does much if you read the studies, rather than pull up on the shoe and have it all strain in strange ways.

Secondly, if you actually read the thread, I'm not giving advice on them - I'm advising strongly against them. An earlier post called them "a death trap" which is going a bit far but they are an unnecessary injury risk with little benefit for casual cycling.


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## screenman (30 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Firstly, clips are more effective than clipless because you really can push up... but no one really does much if you read the studies, rather than pull up on the shoe and have it all strain in strange ways.
> 
> Secondly, if you actually read the thread, I'm not giving advice on them - I'm advising strongly against them. An earlier post called them "a death trap" which is going a bit far but they are an unnecessary injury risk with little benefit for casual cycling.



What is this casual cycling you write about? I personally have had more injuries from the days I rode flats than since, but if course that could be down to lots of reasons.


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## mjr (30 Apr 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> As others have said, the safety advantage is your feet remaining on the pedals even on wet, rough or bumpy roads. It can also be safer to bunny hop over pot holes rather than risk swerving into traffic.


If you can't bunny hop with flat pedals, then you shouldn't be trying it clipped in IMO else you'll risk leg injuries.

As others have said, good flat pedals will keep feet on them even on wet, rough or bumpy roads. Don't judge them by the shiny slippy ones given away with bikes or sold ludicrously cheap.

(Edited to add link to bunny hop instructions.)


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## Mr Celine (30 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Firstly, clips are more effective than clipless because you really can push up... but no one really does much if you read the studies, rather than pull up on the shoe and have it all strain in strange ways.
> 
> Secondly, if you actually read the thread, I'm not giving advice on them - I'm advising strongly against them. An earlier post called them "a death trap" which is going a bit far but they are an unnecessary injury risk with little benefit for casual cycling.



OK, so why are you advising strongly against something you've never tried? What evidence do you have of an unnecessary injury risk? What leg injuries are you likely to get bunny hopping clipped in that you wouldn't get unclipped?


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## smutchin (30 Apr 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> A sudden hazard appeared, I tried to unclip but failed, due I think to twisting from the centre of my foot rather than the ankle. I only just managed to unclip before falling off after trying the second time.



Oh, I see! I totally had a different idea what you meant. My bad - I blame being v.tired after yesterday's ride. 

Tbh, I just think it sounds like you need more practice - find a quiet road and practise clipping in and out along with stopping and starting. 

Also as some others have said, if you really can't get on with them, don't feel obliged to keep on using them if you don't want to.


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## mjr (30 Apr 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> OK, so why are you advising strongly against something you've never tried?


Because it's not that different to clipped and the advocates are writing nonsense about it being more efficient or easier when most tests have failed to find any significant advantage in those ways.



> What evidence do you have of an unnecessary injury risk?


People falling over when they wouldn't if they weren't clipped in. Usually only bruises. Occasionally a broken bone. I don't know if a clipless fall into traffic has resulted in death.



> What leg injuries are you likely to get bunny hopping clipped in that you wouldn't get unclipped?


None if you can hop anyway, but if you can't hop properly (with the bars first) and try to do it instead by yanking the bike into the air with your clipped-in feet, you could easily pull something... or possibly accidentally unclip!


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## Mr Celine (30 Apr 2017)

mjr said:


> Because it's not that different to clipped



And how do you know that?

Having used flats, clips with and without straps, SPDs and SPD-SLs I can state, from my own experience, that clipless is very different from clipped. 

Anyway, never having tried a recumbent I'm off to their sub-forum to give them the benefit of my opinions on why I think they're doing it wrong.


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## Welsh wheels (1 May 2017)

I have been doing some riding over the weekend and I'm feeling more confident with the clipless pedals now, I haven't fallen off yet anyway!


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## tommaguzzi (1 May 2017)

But are the providing any noticeable/measurable benefits?


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## boydj (1 May 2017)

I find it difficult to ride unclipped, even on good quality MTB pedals. I find the unweighted foot just moves about too much and can lose contact. I think I'm safer clipped in, because I can unclip without thinking, even in an emergency, and my feet are secure when the going is rough.


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## Welsh wheels (1 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> But are the providing any noticeable/measurable benefits?


For sure, I can really get the power down now especially uphills. As a result my average speed has increased for no more effort.


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## FishFright (1 May 2017)

This is all getting rather silly now. You're all wrong anyway.


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## mjr (1 May 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> And how do you know that?


From the published studies, at least as far as efficiency and so on.



> Having used flats, clips with and without straps, SPDs and SPD-SLs I can state, from my own experience, that clipless is very different from clipped.


That's a nice assertion but how have you measured it? Or is this an attempt at proof by vigorous hand actions? 



> Anyway, never having tried a recumbent I'm off to their sub-forum to give them the benefit of my opinions on why I think they're doing it wrong.


Don't take it so personally! No one is saying you're doing it wrong - just that a load of unsupportable claptrap is being claimed about how you're doing it. As I think I wrote earlier, if you like the sugar pills, keep sucking on Minstrels.


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## tommaguzzi (1 May 2017)

Welsh wheels.

Ok so now do a timed ride say about 15 to 20 miles of mixed terrain with your new shoes and pedals.
Go as hard as you can.
Then repeat the exact course under similar conditions on another day using your old setup. Again be honest and go as hard as you can. Then you will have a some hard proof one way or the other (Strava would be good for this).


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## Tim Hall (1 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> Welsh wheels.
> 
> Ok so now do a timed ride say about 15 to 20 miles of mixed terrain with your new shoes and pedals.
> Go as hard as you can.
> Then repeat the exact course under similar conditions on another day using your old setup. Again be honest and go as hard as you can. Then you will have a some hard proof one way or the other (Strava would be good for this).


For a more meaningful experiment, use one flat pedal and one clipless. That'll rule out variations in traffic. Whichever foot arrives first is the better.

(I may have had a glass of red before typing this)


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## Drago (1 May 2017)

Why all the fuss? Let's just do what works best for each of us.


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## screenman (1 May 2017)

I wonder why somebody thought all those years ago that it would be a good idea to be clipped in. Mind you I am glad they did.


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## Welsh wheels (1 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> Welsh wheels.
> 
> Ok so now do a timed ride say about 15 to 20 miles of mixed terrain with your new shoes and pedals.
> Go as hard as you can.
> Then repeat the exact course under similar conditions on another day using your old setup. Again be honest and go as hard as you can. Then you will have a some hard proof one way or the other (Strava would be good for this).


Thanks for the suggestion


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## Welsh wheels (1 May 2017)

Tim Hall said:


> For a more meaningful experiment, use one flat pedal and one clipless. That'll rule out variations in traffic. Whichever foot arrives first is the better.
> 
> (I may have had a glass of red before typing this)


And if you have a mechanical you can hop home on your one normal shoe, wheeling your bike.


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## Mr Celine (1 May 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> Having used flats, clips with and without straps, SPDs and SPD-SLs I can state, from my own experience, that clipless is very different from clipped.





mjr said:


> That's a nice assertion but how have you measured it?



Two ways. Firstly, safety. I can get my feet to the ground as quickly with clipless pedals as I can with flat pedals. Using toe clips takes longer, with straps considerably longer and the latter also requires the use of a hand to release the buckle.

Secondly a practical test which is sometimes necessary due to an arthritic hip leaving me only able to pedal with one leg. I can pedal up a hill with one leg from a standing start with clipless pedals. I couldn't do that with flats or with toe clips. 

As for efficiency, I haven't a clue, I never mentioned efficiency and really don't care. 

But don't take it so personally! No one is saying you're doing it wrong - just that a load of unsupportable claptrap is being claimed about clipless pedals being unsafe. You might enjoy sucking on Minstrels but you'll never know that you might prefer other sweeties if you don't try them.


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## mjr (2 May 2017)

Mr Celine said:


> Two ways. Firstly, safety. I can get my feet to the ground as quickly with clipless pedals as I can with flat pedals. Using toe clips takes longer, with straps considerably longer and the latter also requires the use of a hand to release the buckle.


If you had to use your hand to undo the strap, it was set up wrong, roughly equivalent to having the clipless release tension too tight or position somehow wrong. Probably straps too tight or possibly misplaced or possibly something else entirely. Here's an instruction manual and Trek's guide is even firmer: "Always adjust the toe strap lengths with the buckles (Figure 1) to allow quick removal of your feet from the pedals. ... When you stop the bicycle, your shoes must easily disengage from the pedals" 



Mr Celine said:


> Secondly a practical test which is sometimes necessary due to an arthritic hip leaving me only able to pedal with one leg.


Ah well, there's always some unusual situations which make things like clipless worthwhile. Like I can totally understand why they're very useful for riding recumbents.



Mr Celine said:


> just that a load of unsupportable claptrap is being claimed about clipless pedals being unsafe.


Or what I actually wrote was "an unnecessary injury risk with little benefit for casual cycling". Not necessarily unsafe.



Mr Celine said:


> You might enjoy sucking on Minstrels but you'll never know that you might prefer other sweeties if you don't try them.


You're telling a guy with dodgy knees and ankles to try clipless and I'm not supposed to take it personally and feel you're trying to harm me?


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## Profpointy (2 May 2017)

I've learnt something from this thread. Apparenlty I only have clipless pedals because I want to emulate professional racing cyclists. Presumably the racers have mudguards, brooks saddles and pannier racks too.


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## dave r (2 May 2017)

mjr said:


> If you had to use your hand to undo the strap, it was set up wrong, roughly equivalent to having the clipless release tension too tight or position somehow wrong. Probably straps too tight or possibly misplaced or possibly something else entirely. Here's an instruction manual and Trek's guide is even firmer: "Always adjust the toe strap lengths with the buckles (Figure 1) to allow quick removal of your feet from the pedals. ... When you stop the bicycle, your shoes must easily disengage from the pedals"



I didn't ride toeclips with the straps that tight that I couldn't get a foot out without loosening the strap, I used to just do the strap up enough to hold the foot on the pedal but not that tight I couldn't get a foot out.


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## J1888 (2 May 2017)

Since my bike got pinched, I've gone back from SPD-SL to SPD, can't believe I ever used to ride these tiny infernal things 

EDIT: Note, I am using the pedals with a bike, before any smart Alec comments.


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## mjr (2 May 2017)

Drago said:


> Why all the fuss? Let's just do what works best for each of us.


Amen! Each to their own - please just don't keep perpetuating legends about any system being more efficient or safer in normal use. It is of course possible to use anything unsafely.



screenman said:


> I wonder why somebody thought all those years ago that it would be a good idea to be clipped in. Mind you I am glad they did.


If I remember/understand correctly, clips were invented in the 1890s as a solution to feet slipping off metal pedals. Some specific toe clip innovations were patented but not the whole concept.

Meanwhile, the better (IMO) alternative solution of rubber-grip pedals was invented in the 1880s but was more thoroughly patented which delayed their spread, with them only becoming mass-market in the 1930s, just in time for something else to want a lot of rubber 1939-1945 - apparently all adding up to a long enough delay that horribly slippy metal pedals persist in inappropriate non-racing applications to this day.


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## tommaguzzi (2 May 2017)

Keep going mjr.
My story
Ive been riding 50 years riding now, i rode flats for decades then clips and straps and then clippies.
After my Achilles snapped 4 years ago i started back on on flats because i didn't want any twisting in my ankle when releasing them and also didn't fancy any more injuries with a clippy moment.
I noticed that once my fitness returned i could ride at just the same pace as before but now i was on flats.
It was like the scales were removed from my eyes, a kings new clothing moment.
I am not a racer just a fairly average club standard rider who regularly does 50 mile rides at 13-18 mph depending on conditions. i don't need to put the power down for sprints and for me having my feet stuck the pedals by cleats makes no difference to my efforts.
I do however appreciate not having to waddle around like a penguin or carry spare shoes.


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## J1888 (2 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> Keep going mjr.
> My story
> Ive been riding 50 years riding now, i rode flats for decades then clips and straps and then clippies.
> After my Achilles snapped 4 years ago i started back on on flats because i didn't want any twisting in my ankle when releasing them and also didn't fancy any more injuries with a clippy moment.
> ...



A noble tale but you ain't gonna chane mjr's mind!


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## tommaguzzi (2 May 2017)

Wasn't trying to I'm in agreement with him

Maybe i should edit the last post to make it clearer


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## screenman (2 May 2017)

What is the waddle bit? not with my shoes and cleats. I would suggest though if the OP grows to not like clipless then he should stop using them before it spoils his enjoyment of cycling.


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## Drago (2 May 2017)

Been updating the Saracen. Had the frame powder coated, and today finally finished reassembling, including meticulously serviced M-520's. They felt so good it was almost sexual.

Going off topic forma moment, If I may be forgiven for doing so, its a beautifully smooth and well applied powder coat job, so I'm very happy.


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## J1888 (2 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> Wasn't trying to I'm in agreement with him
> 
> Maybe i should edit the last post to make it clearer



Apols, i prob didn't read properly


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## tommaguzzi (2 May 2017)

The waddle bit is trying to walk normally wearing Look or similar cleats on smooth floors.
There is a new thread about this.
A different clippy moment.
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/different-kind-of-clipless-moment.217665/


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## youngoldbloke (2 May 2017)

mjr said:


> If you had to use your hand to undo the strap, it was set up wrong, roughly equivalent to having the clipless release tension too tight or position somehow wrong. Probably straps too tight or possibly misplaced or possibly something else entirely. Here's an instruction manual and Trek's guide is even firmer: "Always adjust the toe strap lengths with the buckles (Figure 1) to allow quick removal of your feet from the pedals. ... When you stop the bicycle, your shoes must easily disengage from the pedals"


I see the instruction manual also states:
"NOTE: For street riding, the straps should not be as tight if they were if you were sprinting in the velodrome
or in a road race." 
- So they do seem to accept that straps may be used more tightly than they previously advised. I also used nailed on shoe-plates with clips and straps, which held your feet on the pedals even more firmly (and made you walk in a somewhat ducklike fashion). Some straps were also advertised as having Quick Release buckles, which required just a quick flick to release them - my point being that there was/is no one correct way to use clips and straps, it depends what sort of cycling you are doing. For an interesting history of these things take a look at the Speedplay Pedal Museum.


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## Smokin Joe (2 May 2017)

mjr said:


> If you had to use your hand to undo the strap, it was set up wrong, roughly equivalent to having the clipless release tension too tight or position somehow wrong.



Or he could have had what most club riders and all racers used back in the day. Attached to the sole of the shoe was a metal plate with a slot which engaged with the rear plate of the pedal. On setting off you pulled the strap tight which locked your foot onto the pedal, before coming to a halt you would reach down and flick the quick release on the strap open so you could remove your foot. That system was in use for about 100 years and I can never recall an incident where someone toppled over because they didn't undo it in time, it became second nature. Which is why those of us who switched to clipless found it a doddle to get used to.

EDIT: As said in the above post by youngoldbloke

Now use clipless or don't, it's up to you. But let's not have any twaddle about them being dangerous as said by people who can't manage them. "Clipless moments" are caused mainly by people not understanding how the pedals work and they try and pull their foot up out of the pedal at the same time as flicking it sideways, hence the mechanism prevents the shoe disengaging because this is what it is designed to do. Just a sideways twist and the shoe releases without a problem, no matter how high you have the tension set (Another myth BTW, that low tension makes it easier to release. It doesn't anymore than high tension makes it more difficult).

Like I said, use them or not as you prefer, but apart from the waddle like a duck when you walk there are no disadvantages and plenty of benefits.


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## screenman (2 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> The waddle bit is trying to walk normally wearing Look or similar cleats on smooth floors.
> There is a new thread about this.
> A different clippy moment.
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/different-kind-of-clipless-moment.217665/



Then obviously if you wanted to walk you would choose a different pedal cleat set up. I have used a lot of different setups, but if walking was going to be involved then SPD all the way.


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## tommaguzzi (2 May 2017)

Yes ive wanted to walk
You know like
Into café s.
Going for toilet break.
Buying an ice cream
Walk into a petrol station shop for emergency calories when I've bonked
These places have smooth floors.
I went out riding in clippies but normally found my self walking at someo point.


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## screenman (2 May 2017)

tommaguzzi said:


> Yes ive wanted to walk
> You know like
> Into café s.
> Going for toilet break.
> ...



I can see where the wrong system could be a problem there.


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## tommaguzzi (2 May 2017)

The wrong system is correct. As i said earlier being attached to the pedals makes no difference to my efforts so the correct system for me is normal shoes and flat pedals.


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## mjr (2 May 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> Like I said, use them or not as you prefer, but apart from the waddle like a duck when you walk there are no disadvantages and plenty of benefits.


So the limited footwear choice, extra expense and need for special unclip motion are benefits to you? Sorry but 

In general, excluding special cases, there are few benefits. But if you like them then enjoy.


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## swansonj (3 May 2017)

Drago said:


> Why all the fuss? Let's just do what works best for each of us.


First order response: yes, of course, we're all far too inclined to tell other people what they should be doing, just let people enjoy themselves in whatever way works for them. 

Second order response: no, because the choices we make impact on other people. We all want more people to cycle (for their own health and wellbeing; for the reduced NHS bills and therefore taxes; for reduced motor traffic and reduced pollution and global warming; for safer roads for us; for a generally more civilised society). The image of cycling as a niche activity, as a sport, requiring specialist equipment (Lycra, helmets, and dedicated shoes that people don't understand the purpose of but are obviously expensive and uncomfortable) all run counter to this. Every cyclist who turns up to the coffee stop sweaty, in Lycra, hobbling across the cafe in clicky shoes, safety helmet in tow, is enjoying themselves in their chosen way, and good luck to them - but is also reinforcing the message that cycling is not for the ordinary person to pootle a couple of miles to the shops or work in whatever they happen to be wearing.


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## Smokin Joe (3 May 2017)

mjr said:


> So the limited footwear choice, extra expense and need for special unclip motion are benefits to you? Sorry but
> 
> In general, excluding special cases, there are few benefits. But if you like them then enjoy.


"Special motion"?

You flick your foot sideways instead of lifting it. Try it, it's easy.


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## Dogtrousers (3 May 2017)

Smokin Joe said:


> "Special motion"?
> 
> You flick your foot sideways instead of lifting it. Try it, it's easy.


Easy it may be, but it's hardly a benefit. 

I ride SPDs cos they are easier to engage than toeclips. I rode toeclips because ... er ... because that's what I did. 

My SPD shoes are perfectly normal looking. The only giveaway is the velcro strap that holds the laces down and stops them getting caught (theoretically). They also work fine on the flats on my Brommie.


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## smutchin (3 May 2017)

I had to pick up a bike today and deliver it 10 miles across London. Easiest way to transport a bike from A to B is by riding it, of course, so that's what I did.

Lovely lightweight aero road bike, designed for going proper fast, so of course I fitted a pair of manky old flat plastic pedals because a) that's what I had available, and b) I was in trainers, not cycling shoes. And it was absolutely fine. I think the cassette must be a bit worn, because at one point when I changed gear the chain skipped and that caused my foot to slip slightly, but I didn't fall under a bus or anything silly like that. Phew!

Also, I didn't wear padded lycra shorts, just my normal everyday jeans, and no lump of plastic on my head either. It's almost like you don't actually _need_ this stuff to be able to ride a bike...

Having said that, I will of course be reverting to full MAMIL mode for this Sunday's club ride - lycra, helmet, sporty shades, clipless pedals, mitts, gels stuffed in back pocket. You've got to keep up appearances, right? Might even shave my legs.


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## raleighnut (3 May 2017)

smutchin said:


> I had to pick up a bike today and deliver it 10 miles across London. Easiest way to transport a bike from A to B is by riding it, of course, so that's what I did.
> 
> Lovely lightweight aero road bike, designed for going proper fast, so of course I fitted a pair of manky old flat plastic pedals because a) that's what I had available, and b) I was in trainers, not cycling shoes. And it was absolutely fine. I think the cassette must be a bit worn, because at one point when I changed gear the chain skipped and that caused my foot to slip slightly, but I didn't fall under a bus or anything silly like that. Phew!
> 
> ...


Poseur.


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