# Obesity



## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57144922

Pretty awful data.

2/3 of those admitted with obesity related issues are women it says.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (18 May 2021)

Just read that. I wonder how much more there will be now that we've all been locked up for nearly 18 months. Must have been a lot of comfort eating and drinking going on.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

> Junk-food adverts
> Pressure is piling on the government to take radical action to address the obesity problem.
> 
> Last month, doctors, academics, campaigners and public-sector experts wrote to the prime minister, urging him to stick to a landmark government proposal to ban junk-food advertising online and on social media - after fears it could be ditched.
> ...


This is a waste of time, Obesity is both a mental & physical issue, thinking that adverts on TV will solve the issue is head up their arriss time.


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## Arrowfoot (18 May 2021)

I do agree that we need an assault on the junk food advertising, taxes on junk food sugared drinks etc or the country will have to pay to upkeep an more expensive NHS and welfare programme.


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## derrick (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> This is a waste of time, Obesity is both a mental & physical issue, *thinking that adverts on TV will solve the issue* is head up their arriss time.


Will not solve all issues, but it's a start,
*Subliminal advertising really does work*, claim scientists who found that people subconsciously respond to flashed messages - especially if they are negative. Researchers found that briefly displaying words and images so quickly that people *do* not even consciously notice, *does* nevertheless change their thinking.


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## Drago (18 May 2021)

Massive punitive taxes on junk food. If peole cant afford it, then they won't eat it. May as well lock the thread now.


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## Rooster1 (18 May 2021)

The problem has been amplified by services like Deliveroo and Just Eat, people don't even have to get off the sofa to get their calories.
And the only "treat" people have been able to have out is a Drive Through from Mc-edees.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> Massive punitive taxes on junk food. If peole cant afford it, then they won't eat it. May as well lock the thread now.


Yep that really worked for cigarette smokers didn't it, as i understand it's now on the increase again, have you noticed how many more TV shows have smokers in them, not something you saw a few years ago.



derrick said:


> Will not solve all issues, but it's a start,


Do you really think it is? my wife is obese, it's nothing to do with what she sees on TV, there's a mental side of it of which she won't seek help, there are no NHS services available anyway, but there's also an hereditary side of it, she comes from a line of overweight people & has fought it for 50 years & lost most of the time.


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## battered (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> Massive punitive taxes on junk food. If peole cant afford it, then they won't eat it. May as well lock the thread now.


Go and have a look at the people in a takeaway. They are the people who can least afford the extra cost. Same goes for smokers, 20 fags a day is £10, or £300 a month. Who has £300 a month to literally burn? Yet they do. It's not driven by affordability. It's about the psychological need for gratification. This is a bit more complex than taxation. Raising the price won't work unless you aim to tax it at 1000%, in which case you may as well make it illegal, at which point people will simply eat in. I can eat in a pub for the same price as a takeaway. I can get a supermarket pizza for less again. Obesity isn't about what's on your plate, it's about what's in your head.


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

I was once over 27 stone...

Taxes wont fix the issue. Food can be every bit an addiction as any hard drugs. Yet hard drugs with its high expense and risk is accessible even to skint people. They find a way...

Food is still a requirement for living so you can't remove yourself from the addiction, you have to learn to control it. Which everybody can do but it's finding your way which is the difficult part and which many require help for, None of which is making the price of food unaffordable...


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## Eric Olthwaite (18 May 2021)

If we look at countries around the world, there's not a great deal of correlation between obesity levels and junk food prevalence. For example:

- The highest obesity rates in the world are seen in Pacific island nations, where what we call junk food is unheard of
- Obesity rates in the US are similar to those in Libya and Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index

So I think it's a great deal more complex than simply blaming junk food.


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## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> Just read that. I wonder how much more there will be now that we've all been locked up for nearly 18 months. Must have been a lot of comfort eating and drinking going on.


True, i count myself lucky in that the worst that happened to me was a loss of fitness in the second dark lockdown. As someone who does most of his drinking in a couple of fine local spoons my drinking went seriously down. Not the case for many i think - i well remember the alcohol shelves at my local sainsburys being stripped nearly bare.


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## byegad (18 May 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> I do agree that we need an assault on the junk food advertising, taxes on junk food sugared drinks etc or the country will have to pay to upkeep an more expensive NHS and welfare programme.



I'm obese, I was at BMI of 31 prior to lockdown and a little more now. (I gained 3 kg over lockdowns)

I can count on one hand the number of burgers I've eaten in the last 50 yrs, and I've never had a KFC or similar.
I don't drink sugary pop, and prior to March 2020 rode 6 miles a week, went birding at least once a week and spent a couple of days walking around various local towns.

I very much doubt that a ban on adverts will have any effect.


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## Arrowfoot (18 May 2021)

byegad said:


> I'm obese, I was at BMI of 31 prior to lockdown and a little more now. (I gained 3 kg over lockdowns)
> 
> I can count on one hand the number of burgers I've eaten in the last 50 yrs, and I've never had a KFC or similar.
> I don't drink sugary pop, and prior to March 2020 rode 6 miles a week, went birding at least once a week and spent a couple of days walking around various local towns.
> ...


Decades ago I went on my first visit to the US and was shocked by the sight of obesity all around. I also noticed that junk food ads were in your face all the time. At that time fast food was few and far between in the UK and hardly any ads except for soda drinks.

France which has broad based gastronomical heritage bar none and with wine sipping on a daily basis till today have very slim people and good health. We don't have the food heritage and we have swung the American way.

Even if it helps 50% of the people it will go a long way.

We got to try to save the next generation.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> We don't have the food heritage and we have swung the American way.


Maybe we don't have the gene heritage either


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## snorri (18 May 2021)

It's not all about food, paying by the mile/km for private car use would help along with improved infrastructure for walking and cycling. Also lowering motor vehicle speed limits on both urban and rural roads would make walking and cycling a safer and much more pleasant experience which would encourage active travel.


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## Drago (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Yep that really worked for cigarette smokers didn't it, as i understand it's now on the increase again, have you noticed how many more TV shows have smokers in them, not something you saw a few years ago.


I mean _really _ punitive. For fags id have 15 or 20 quid on a pack of 10, with ruthless punishments for illegal imports. A 10 quid tax on a 99p slop burger from the drive thru would make a lot of people seek an alternative, and if the alternatives are massively taxed then what else is there?


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## Electric_Andy (18 May 2021)

I'm not convinced that a tax on "junk" food would work. Obese people abuse food, so switching to something cheaper to get your carb/fat/sugar fix would be a workaround. It's a bit like saying let's get rid of alcoholism by making spirits £40/bottle. Those with a problem would just switch to drinking 10 cans of lager a day rather than 1 bottle of vodka.

I'd like to see more support groups etc for obese people, as they have an addicition just like alcoholics. And I'm speaking as someone who has problems controlling their weight. When I'm in a binge eating phase, I go for ice cream, chocolate, burgers etc. If they were too pricey for me then I could just as easily overeat on fried rice and milkshakes and take in 1500kcals in one sitting


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> I mean _really _ punitive. For fags id have 15 or 20 quid on a pack of 10, with ruthless punishments for illegal imports. A 10 quid tax on a 99p slop burger from the drive thru would make a lot of people seek an alternative, and if the alternatives are massively taxed then what else is there?


I see where you are coming from Mr Drago, but fast food isn't the only unhealthy choices out there. You could equally make an unhealthy burger or pasty at home using ingredients we all buy from a butcher or supermarket. The dangers from such a proposal would be we are all simply taxed to oblivion for no real reason and i highly doubt any government would have the cojones to do such a thing anyway and that we would then be "encouraged" to eat a selection of vegan friendly products that we tolerate because the meat products are taxed at 1000% limiting choice and putting us at the mercy of lunatic activists... Even though i have lost a significant amount of weight, i still enjoy a pie, a burger and a cake from time to time and can keep it off even though ive been a fat barsteward in the past.

I would say sugar is probably one of the biggest issues. If we must tax anything to encourage a change in eating habits, it should be that. This would be punitive on people yes, but it may also encourage food manufacturers to switch to different ingredients rather than loading humble foods, with a load of sugar in order to gain a competitive edge in taste over its rivals...


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## Drago (18 May 2021)

You _could_, but how many do? The people who clamour to buy filth like McDonalds are not liable to the be same people who are into home cuisine.

It ain't difficult. That hole (points at mouth) is bigger than that one (points at arriss). _No_ excuses. No one came out of a viet cong prison a lardo, or 3 stone overweight after months adrift on a life raft - in situations where people have been forced to eat less the excuses for being chubby invariably count for nothing and the weight still comes off.

The other issue is one of the NHS's ability to determine obestity. Every time I fill out a form I come out as grossly obese, yet every time a medico actually lays eyes upon me they invatiably apologise and confirm that I am most definitely anything but. They rely on a seriously outdated, grossly inaccurate, incredibly inappropriate method for determining who is obese.


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

There's no one single "fix" for this. Another factor in the whole equation is that people tend to be time poor, and so ready meals and takeaways are the convenient option when it's late and you're hungry.

Also, a distinct lack of kitchen skills. Although I count myself luckier than most, as my mum trained in a professional kitchen, and then she taught me to cook at an early age. Plus Home Economics (as it was back then in the mid-80s) was compulsory for the first two years of senior school. So I've always cooked, and it's never occurred for me to do otherwise. But in the years since, there deems to be a growing disconnect between people and cooking. It's as much a lack of education as anything.

If i know that I'm going to be busy etc, I will batch cook in advance, so all I need to do is reheat something. And failing that, it doesn't take long to whizz up an omelette or a jacket potato.

The thing that really bugs me though, is that a lot of the cheaper options in terms of food is processed / prepared. Which is where people tend to gravitate to if they're on a limited budget and don't have kitchen skills.

I've noticed a stark contrast between the contents of my trolley in the supermarket and those of other people. And yes, I'm on a reasonably tight budget, but there is good value to be had in the fresh produce aisles, in among the dried / canned goods and certainly on yellow sticker.

N.B. The women on my dad's side of the family are all short and have a tendency towards obesity, so I do have to be careful. Let's just say that being a size 16 when you're 4ft 11 is most definitely NOT a good look...


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## Blue Hills (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> . No one came out of a viet cong prison a lardo, or 3 stone overweight after months adrift on a life raft - i


Can't be all stick drago - suggest you launch these two diets - vietcong prison and life raft - pronto as cheery carrots to a grateful populace. 

Look forward to seeing you on the bbc breakfast sofa soon, all aglow from your morning quaffing of your own urine.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> There's no one single "fix" for this


... which is why it's bloody annoying when folks say: 
"THAT won't work - look, these fat people got like that despite your _berrrrrrilliant _idea!"


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> The dangers from such a proposal would be we are all simply taxed to oblivion for no real reason and i highly doubt any government would have the cojones to do such a thing anyway


- we're really not. Look at the countries paying more tax than us; most are healthier and happier. Would it hurt to try that?
- correct. Most of our politicians are too gutless to show any leadership.


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> You _could_, but how many do? The people who clamour to buy filth like McDonalds are not liable to the be same people who are into home cuisine.
> 
> It ain't difficult. That hole (points at mouth) is bigger than that one (points at arriss). _No_ excuses. No one came out of a viet cong prison a lardo, or 3 stone overweight after months adrift on a life raft - in situations where people have been forced to eat less the excuses for being chubby invariably count for nothing and the weight still comes off.
> 
> The other issue is one of the NHS's ability to determine obestity. Every time I fill out a form I come out as grossly obese, yet every time a medico actually lays eyes upon me they invatiably apologise and confirm that I am most definitely anything but. They rely on a seriously outdated, grossly inaccurate, incredibly inappropriate method for determining who is obese.



Starvation does work, absolutely no doubt about it. Your teeth may fall out, you leg may snap at any given moment and the next time you put food in your mouth, your stomach might explode, but it is definitely an option... 

Aye, the NHS BMI calculation is a vague indicator at best. I believe the "pinch" test is it? is a more accurate indicator.


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> ... which is why it's bloody annoying when folks say:
> "THAT won't work - look, these fat people got like that despite your _berrrrrrilliant _idea!"



Indeed. There are multiple issues that need to be tackled that span things as diverse as education, advertising, mental health, the easy availability of junk food...


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## Electric_Andy (18 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> a growing disconnect between people and cooking


 That's the nail on the head I think. Involve your kids in cooking and choosing meals, but that all takes time and effort, and some people (me included sometimes) do not have the time or energy to do this. Especially in areas of high deprivation - 60% of school age kids in deprived areas are classified as obese, compared to 17% in more affluent areas source


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

Are you also going to tax TV's, laptops, tablets, PC's all the things that make people sit & while their time away, my wife does very little exercise, so she is now in the Catch22 situation, she's obese, needs to exercise, can't exercise as she's obese, this is a weekly discussion, but there is only one person who can do it for her & it's not me.


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Starvation does work, absolutely no doubt about it. Your teeth may fall out, you leg may snap at any given moment and the next time you put food in your mouth, your stomach might explode, but it is definitely an option...
> 
> Aye, the NHS BMI calculation is a vague indicator at best. I believe the "pinch" test is it? is a more accurate indicator.



The most useful indicator I've ran across is that your waist should be smaller than half your height - easily checkable with something as simple as a piece of string. It effectively measures the amount of visceral fat as opposed to subcutaneous.

BMI doesn't take into account muscle mass, which isn't great if you're stocky but not fat.


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## ClichéGuevara (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> - we're really not. Look at the countries paying more tax than us; most are healthier and happier. Would it hurt to try that?
> - correct. *Most of our politicians are too gutless* to show any leadership.



At least they're leading by example.


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## Mo1959 (18 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Indeed. There are multiple issues that need to be tackled that span things as diverse as education, advertising, mental health, the easy availability of junk food...


Embarrassed to admit, I pretty much live on ready meals and sandwiches. Was never interested in “girly” stuff at school so just skived or mucked about in cookery/sewing classes. My mum did the basics of plain cooking and baking but I was never interested in it apart from licking the bowl. Lol. I don’t even have a freezer at the moment, just a frozen compartment in the fridge which holds a couple of loaves and the odd bag of frozen veg.


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## Eric Olthwaite (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> ... which is why it's bloody annoying when folks say:
> "THAT won't work - look, these fat people got like that despite your _berrrrrrilliant _idea!"



If policy-makers are planning to impose a remedy such as taxes on junk food that imposes significant costs on low income families, I do think they are under an obligation to demonstrate - by reference to evidence - that such a remedy is likely to make a real difference.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

ClichéGuevara said:


> At least they're leading by example.


I'd have been sad if no-one had put away that open goal!


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## BoldonLad (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> .......
> Do you really think it is? my wife is obese, it's nothing to do with what she sees on TV, there's a mental side of it of which she won't seek help, *there are no NHS services available anyway, * but there's also an hereditary side of it, she comes from a line of overweight people & has fought it for 50 years & lost most of the time.



I am no expert, but, I think you will find there are NHS Services available (perhaps, not in your immediate area). There are such services available in Sunderland, Tyne-Wear.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> If policy-makers are planning to impose a remedy such as taxes on junk food that imposes significant costs on low income families, I do think they are under an obligation to demonstrate - by reference to evidence - that such a remedy is likely to make a real difference.


I'm not totally convinced: do you require similar evidence of EVERY change announced at every budget?
Sometimes the precautionary principle applies: let's try this, it will probably be a good thing, and we won't know until we try - but doing nothing is costing lives.


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## BoldonLad (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> I mean _really _ punitive. For fags id have 15 or 20 quid on a pack of 10, with ruthless punishments for illegal imports. A 10 quid tax on a 99p slop burger from the drive thru would make a lot of people seek an alternative, and if the alternatives are massively taxed then *what else is there?*



Food Banks?


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Embarrassed to admit, I pretty much live on ready meals and sandwiches. Was never interested in “girly” stuff at school so just skived or mucked about in cookery/sewing classes. My mum did the basics of plain cooking and baking but I was never interested in it apart from licking the bowl. Lol. I don’t even have a freezer at the moment, just a frozen compartment in the fridge which holds a couple of loaves and the odd bag of frozen veg.



I went to a girls school, so no option but to be girly, even though I'm not. I mucked around in textile classes as well, btw 

My dad was involved in army catering so I got a thorough education on buying and preparing food from both my parents. I guess I'm well outside the norm in that respect - it's one of my life's passions.

But I find cooking relaxing, it makes me happy, and I get such a kick out of putting a good meal on the table.


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> - we're really not. Look at the countries paying more tax than us; most are healthier and happier. Would it hurt to try that?
> - correct. Most of our politicians are too gutless to show any leadership.


Which countries do you refer to? I'd be surprised if most developed countries tax rate on foods is much different to ours, give or take a few percent.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> Which countries do you refer to? I'd be surprised if most developed countries tax rate on foods is much different to ours, give or take a few percent.


You didn't specify food tax:


> we are all simply taxed to oblivion for no real reason


Now I'm confused - do you think we pay a lot of tax on food or not??


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> You didn't specify food tax:
> 
> Now I'm confused - do you think we pay a lot of tax on food or not??


I make reference to a tax on food, in particular fast food a number of occasions in quoted responses...


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

But most foods aren't taxed... 

Some are, like cakes and chocolate. Remember the debate whether Jaffa Cakes were biscuits or cakes in order for VAT to be applied or not. Those items to which VAT is applicable will be asterisked on your till reciept, btw.


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## BoldonLad (18 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> *But most foods aren't taxed...*
> 
> Some are, like cakes and chocolate. Remember the debate whether Jaffa Cakes were biscuits or cakes in order for VAT to be applied or not. Those items to which VAT is applicable will be asterisked on your till reciept, btw.



Could be wrong, but, I thought hot take-away food was taxed (VAT)? I seem to recall a big debate about Greggs Sausage Rolls (not that I eat them)


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Could be wrong, but, I thought hot take-away food was taxed (VAT)? I seem to recall a big debate about Greggs Sausage Rolls (not that I eat them)


You can buy them cold in supermarkets. (I have no idea why anyone does - supermarkets sell real food as well.)

HTH!


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

The Danish had a "fat tax" but abolished it back in 2012. At the time approximately 47% of Danes were overweight. A study conducted in 2016 suggested that the Danes brought 4% less saturated fat products, consumed more fruit and veg but also consumed more salt, salt which causes high blood pressure which leads to more serious health conditions... The study also ignored the fact that one of the reasons it was scrapped was because Danes were hopping over the border to Germany and stocking up there, so how much of that 4% actually was 4% is another factor... The reversal lead to the cancelling of a planned sugar tax...

It didn't work for Denmark...


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

Which border would _you _hop over to buy your fatty foods, Dave?

...


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Which border would _you _hop over to buy your fatty foods, Dave?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't matticus, I lost my weight, as have thousands have others without resorting to punitive taxes.


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## shep (18 May 2021)

As already stated if people have eating issues then no amount of tax will address the problem, it might however reduce the amount of obese kids about due to what their parents feed them. 

That's the real crime as far as I'm concerned.


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## annedonnelly (18 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> The thing that really bugs me though, is that a lot of the cheaper options in terms of food is processed / prepared. Which is where people tend to gravitate to if they're on a limited budget and don't have kitchen skills.



And in the cheaper supermarkets you find that a tin of fruit, say, will be in syrup rather than in fruit juice. So someone thinks they're being relatively healthy by eating fruit but it's got sugar added.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

HMS_Dave said:


> I wouldn't matticus, I lost my weight, as have thousands have others without resorting to punitive taxes.


So that's two posts in a row that don't actually relate to reality when queried.


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## matticus (18 May 2021)

shep said:


> As already stated if people have eating issues then no amount of tax will address the problem, *it might however reduce the amount of obese kids about due to what their parents feed them.
> 
> That's the real crime as far as I'm concerned.*


Yes, that would be a good thing to tackle.

Partly because bad food habits can stay with you for life


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## HMS_Dave (18 May 2021)

matticus said:


> So that's two posts in a row that don't actually relate to reality when queried.


Okey dokey then, see you later...


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Could be wrong, but, I thought hot take-away food was taxed (VAT)? I seem to recall a big debate about Greggs Sausage Rolls (not that I eat them)



Oh yes, I remember that palaver too... I have it in my head that the so called Cornish Pastie Tax was eventually dropped on the QT, but I may be wrong on that.


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## Reynard (18 May 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> And in the cheaper supermarkets you find that a tin of fruit, say, will be in syrup rather than in fruit juice. So someone thinks they're being relatively healthy by eating fruit but it's got sugar added.



Ouch, that's sneaky. And very wrong, IMHO.

The supermarkets have to carry a certain amount of the can on this as well. (Yup, pun intentional, I'll get me coat  )

Barring the odd can of pineapple chunks (in juice) to make sweet & sour sauce, I don't tend to buy tinned fruit, so it's not something I'd notice.


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## mistyoptic (18 May 2021)

shep said:


> As already stated if people have eating issues then no amount of tax will address the problem, it might however reduce the amount of obese kids about due to what their parents feed them.
> 
> That's the real crime as far as I'm concerned.


I do agree. I remember cringing a couple of years ago on a visit to Dudley Zoo. There was a large woman pushing her toddler past one of the enclosures in a buggy. The toddler, who can’t have been more than two, had its own quarter pounder and a tray of chips. You could probably categorise that as a form of child abuse


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## winjim (18 May 2021)

Drago said:


> The other issue is one of the NHS's ability to determine obestity. Every time I fill out a form I come out as grossly obese, yet every time a medico actually lays eyes upon me they invatiably apologise and confirm that I am most definitely anything but. They rely on a seriously outdated, grossly inaccurate, incredibly inappropriate method for determining who is obese.


Recent lecture slides would tend to suggest that NHS nutrition consultants and dieticians are well aware of the limitations of the technique. In fact BMI is actually a more useful tool for determining underweight rather than overweight status.


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## ebikeerwidnes (18 May 2021)

There are some support things available.
I have been referred to one for Pre diabetes based on my age/BMI and a blood test. Unfortunately the pandemic got in the way - but it does exist.
I eventually agreed to try a remote version but it didn;t really work for me - too much stuff I already know plus a lot of people discussing doing things I have done for years!
A similar thing in person may help me more
but the other people on the course did seem to think it was a positive thing.


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## BoldonLad (18 May 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> *There are some support things available.*
> I have been referred to one for Pre diabetes based on my age/BMI and a blood test. Unfortunately the pandemic got in the way - but it does exist.
> I eventually agreed to try a remote version but it didn;t really work for me - too much stuff I already know plus a lot of people discussing doing things I have done for years!
> A similar thing in person may help me more
> but the other people on the course did seem to think it was a positive thing.



Yes, ditto. It is many years ago now, but, after a heart attack (which I clearly survived  ) I was given the option to attend several sessions on exercise and diet. Indeed, it was via that route that I returned to cycling after many years absence. 

One of my daughters has recently been diagnosed as "pre-diabetic" and, has been attending sessions to deal with it (successfully).

One of my Sisters-in-law recently ceased diabetic medication (met.. something or other), after NHS inspired exercise sessions.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> I am no expert, but, I think you will find there are NHS Services available (perhaps, not in your immediate area). There are such services available in Sunderland, Tyne-Wear.


All they did in this area was pay for 3 months subscription to Slimmers World, Sorry but that's not real help, that smacks of some box ticking process.


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## shep (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> All they did in this area was pay for 3 months subscription to Slimmers World, Sorry but that's not real help, that smacks of some box ticking process.


What is it you would be looking for, coucilling or dietary advice maybe?


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## Eric Olthwaite (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> All they did in this area was pay for 3 months subscription to Slimmers World, Sorry but that's not real help, that smacks of some box ticking process.



I've done a bit of Slimming World. You do actually learn quite a lot about healthy eating in 3 months.


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## Cycleops (18 May 2021)

There's also an obesity crisis down here, not just among the better off, who have access to KFC pizzas etc, but with the poorest who can't afford meat or proteins so fill up with carbs which turns to sugar.
It's also seen as a sign of health and wealth if you're overweight. People will often compliment those who have gained weight saying 'You look well'.
There's more pressure on woman who now like to be 'thick' which is the latest craze.


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## BoldonLad (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> All they did in this area was pay for 3 months subscription to Slimmers World, Sorry but that's not real help, that smacks of some box ticking process.



In my case, help was forthcoming via GP referral, but, it was only after (my) persistence. First suggestion was medication for high BP and Chloresterol. It was only when I resisted prescription medication that I was offered actual dietary advice/support, and, exercise advise/support etc.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

shep said:


> What is it you would be looking for, coucilling or dietary advice maybe?


I think counselling to get to the root of her issue, she has the deck stacked against her in hereditary terms, but something else is causing it I believe & I can't help her although I wish I could, I might even be the cause, but unless she faces it & discusses it, who knows.


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## battered (18 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> I think counselling to get to the root of her issue, she has the deck stacked against her in hereditary terms, but something else is causing it I believe & I can't help her although I wish I could, I might even be the cause, but unless she faces it & discusses it, who knows.


I agree, it's a counselling issue, if you can't bring yourself to do it of your own accord. I've lost 20lb, or 9 kg, in the last 4 months. My BmI is about 25.5, I'm 11s4 and 5'6. The difficult part isn't doing it, I've eaten exactly what I should today and I will tomorrow. I have one night off per week. It works perfectly. But prior to this I spent 2 years deciding to get round to it and being a stone and a half overweight. I know what to do, the evidence is there to see since January. But wanting to do it is the difficult part. I don't mean saying that you want to, I mean actually wanting to do it so that you do what's necessary. It's the same as getting fit, learning a language, etc. You have to get to the point where it's what you do, not something that you would like to do, but it's difficult right now because... If that means counselling, so he it. One cautionary tale about counselling though - how many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change.


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## Edwardoka (18 May 2021)

It's a complicated issue. People are a product of their environment. In many places we have rearranged the environment to be as convenient as possible for car drivers, and openly hostile to everyone else. Out of town malls with car parks the size of towns, and of course every one of them has a drive-through McDonalds, a KFC, and a Costa, each laden with stuff designed to be as more-ish as possible so that you get a quick burst of endorphins after the tiring process of shopping and you grow to look forward to this.

Takeaways OTOH aren't necessarily bad if you're careful and restrict them (I refuse to get more than one a month), compared to say, ready meals or the twelvety varieties of sugar-laden bread in supermarkets. Stuff that gets consumed daily. It's clear that some people don't look at the food labels. If they did, and paid attention, the supermarkets wouldn't be stocking packaging covered with red marks.

Add to that the capacity and tendency for people to delude themselves into thinking that it's "just a little treat". Something you "treat" yourself to several times a day is not a treat, Senga.


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## Ming the Merciless (18 May 2021)

It’s not genes it’s the environment and society people now find themselves in the UK. Those of us who went to school in the 70/80s will remember that the fat kid was a rare as hens teeth, perhaps just one in a class of 34. Now it’s more than 10 in 34 and increasing.

Reversing the environmental and societal changes is going to take at least one or two generations.


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## Phaeton (18 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It’s not genes it’s the environment and society people now find themselves in the UK. Those of us who went to school in the 70/80s will remember that the fat kid was a rare as hens teeth, perhaps just one in a class of 34.


You obviously went to different schools to me, I also had at least 4 female relatives who were even then over 20 stones,


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## Donger (18 May 2021)

I always dread this subject coming up as, with a BMI of 35.8, I am officially not only "obese", but borderline "morbidly obese" when looked at simply by my statistics. Plenty of people on this forum have been quick to judge me in the past when I have mentioned my weight and I'm a little concerned that in the event of me developing any serious medical condition, societal prejudice could prevent me from receiving treatment. I'm convinced there is no real satisfactory definition of obesity. A number of professional sportsmen .... like Jonah Lomu, who was also about my height and weight, would also be classified as "obese" if judged merely by their BMI. 

Whilst I don't disagree that there is a real problem with overeating these days, I'd just like to make the point that BMI isn't everything, and we shouldn't be so quick to judge people purely on their weight. At 60, although I'll acknowledge I have a bit of a tummy on me, I have never felt fitter or healthier in my life. I can still ride up mountains. I can ride 100 miles. There are plenty of people half my weight who cannot say that.


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## BoldonLad (19 May 2021)

Donger said:


> I always dread this subject coming up as, with a BMI of 35.8, I am officially not only "obese", but borderline "morbidly obese" when looked at simply by my statistics. Plenty of people on this forum have been quick to judge me in the past when I have mentioned my weight and I'm a little concerned that in the event of me developing any serious medical condition, societal prejudice could prevent me from receiving treatment. I'm convinced there is no real satisfactory definition of obesity. A number of professional sportsmen .... like Jonah Lomu, who was also about my height and weight, would also be classified as "obese" if judged merely by their BMI.
> 
> Whilst I don't disagree that there is a real problem with overeating these days, I'd just like to make the point that BMI isn't everything, and we shouldn't be so quick to judge people purely on their weight. At 60, although I'll acknowledge I have a bit of a tummy on me, I have never felt fitter or healthier in my life. I can still ride up mountains. I can ride 100 miles. There are plenty of people half my weight who cannot say that.



Agreed. BMI has become a “one size fits all” measure. IMHO it gives a GUIDE measurement, which is applicable to a significant proportion of the population, but, not ALL. 

Personally, with a BMI of 24, a bit of a belly, but, at 73, still reasonably fit and cycling 3-4 times a week, I believe it gives a reasonable guide for me. However, I have friends who are more athletic than me, with BMI over 25, who are not, IMHO, obese or significantly overweight.


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## mustang1 (19 May 2021)

Do any of you over-eat due to stress? I do. Sometimes I think I make excuses and should control myself and on the odd occasion, I do (namely saturdays when I dont work). I recall yeahs ago when I got my current job, before that I handed in my resignation and for three months before starting the next job, my weight drastically dropped and I put that down to very little stress.

But IDK if there's enough evidence about this or am I just making excuses to eat another bar of chocolate.

It's a darn good thing I ride a lot otherwise I'd be really overweight but I'm not sure how healthy I really am on the inside despite not being obese.


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## Electric_Andy (19 May 2021)

mustang1 said:


> Do any of you over-eat due to stress?


No, I used to drink! But everyone is different. When I'm not following my special diet, I can relapse and binge for a couple of weeks. I tend to overeat when I'm happy and relaxed. But when I'm stressed I get knots and butterflies in my stomach so don't really feel like eating at all.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Agreed. BMI has become a “one size fits all” measure. IMHO it gives a GUIDE measurement, which is applicable to a significant proportion of the population, but, not ALL.
> 
> Personally, with a BMI of 24, a bit of a belly, but, at 73, still reasonably fit and cycling 3-4 times a week, I believe it gives a reasonable guide for me. However, I have friends who are more athletic than me, with BMI over 25, who are not, IMHO, obese or significantly overweight.


Every nutritionist or medic already knows that BMI is just one measure. They also know that it only applies to "average" people, whoever she is. Everybody concerned with food and nutrition knows that the 21 year old Mike Tyson, heavyweight boxing champion of the world, had at that time a BMI of 31. So he was obese by that measure. However a glance at him with his shirt off would revel between 5 and 10% bodyfat and scary amounts of muscle befitting an athlete in peak condition. Not very "average" then, not by any measure. Similarly Jonah Lomu, or any gym rat who walks in with arms like my thighs, a 30 inch waist and a diet consisting of steamed fish and protein shakes.


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## icowden (19 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Personally, with a BMI of 24, a bit of a belly, but, at 73, still reasonably fit and cycling 3-4 times a week, I believe it gives a reasonable guide for me. However, I have friends who are more athletic than me, with BMI over 25, who are not, IMHO, obese or significantly overweight.



BMI doesn't work for anyone who is significantly athletic as it doesn't take into account the ratio of muscle mass to fat, whereby muscle mass is heavier than fat. Thus if you are like the BiL who runs miles every day and cycles hundreds of miles per week, you will have a high BMI despite barely having any fat on your body.
It does however work as a guide for most people, and most of us (I am guessing ) would like ours to be lower. 

As mentioned previously it's just hard when that lovely M&S luxury chicken kiev is looking at you on a meal deal...


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## BoldonLad (19 May 2021)

icowden said:


> BMI doesn't work for anyone who is significantly athletic as it doesn't take into account the ratio of muscle mass to fat, whereby muscle mass is heavier than fat. Thus if you are like the BiL who runs miles every day and cycles hundreds of miles per week, you will have a high BMI despite barely having any fat on your body.
> *It does however work as a guide for most people*, and most of us (I am guessing ) would like ours to be lower.
> 
> As mentioned previously it's just hard when that lovely M&S luxury chicken kiev is looking at you on a meal deal...



Quite


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## BoldonLad (19 May 2021)

battered said:


> *Every nutritionist or medic already knows that BMI is just one measure*. They also know that it only applies to "average" people, whoever she is. Everybody concerned with food and nutrition knows that the 21 year old Mike Tyson, heavyweight boxing champion of the world, had at that time a BMI of 31. So he was obese by that measure. However a glance at him with his shirt off would revel between 5 and 10% bodyfat and scary amounts of muscle befitting an athlete in peak condition. Not very "average" then, not by any measure. Similarly Jonah Lomu, or any gym rat who walks in with arms like my thighs, a 30 inch waist and a diet consisting of steamed fish and protein shakes.



I would hope so.

My point (obviously ill explained) was that "the man/woman in the street" does not always appreciate this, and, BMI becomes discredited, giving people yet another excuse not to tackle their fitness/weight issues.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> It's a complicated issue. People are a product of their environment. In many places we have rearranged the environment to be as convenient as possible for car drivers, and openly hostile to everyone else. Out of town malls with car parks the size of towns, and of course every one of them has a drive-through McDonalds, a KFC, and a Costa, each laden with stuff designed to be as more-ish as possible so that you get a quick burst of endorphins after the tiring process of shopping and you grow to look forward to this.
> 
> Takeaways OTOH aren't necessarily bad if you're careful and restrict them (I refuse to get more than one a month), compared to say, ready meals or the twelvety varieties of sugar-laden bread in supermarkets. Stuff that gets consumed daily. It's clear that some people don't look at the food labels. If they did, and paid attention, the supermarkets wouldn't be stocking packaging covered with red marks.
> 
> Add to that the capacity and tendency for people to delude themselves into thinking that it's "just a little treat". Something you "treat" yourself to several times a day is not a treat, Senga.





Edwardoka said:


> It's a complicated issue. People are a product of their environment. In many places we have rearranged the environment to be as convenient as possible for car drivers, and openly hostile to everyone else. Out of town malls with car parks the size of towns, and of course every one of them has a drive-through McDonalds, a KFC, and a Costa, each laden with stuff designed to be as more-ish as possible so that you get a quick burst of endorphins after the tiring process of shopping and you grow to look forward to this.


"Hey, come this way, for a couple of quid you can have something that will make you feel great for a few minutes and pretty good for the next hour or two, and there's no hangover"
Blimey, where do I sign?



> It's clear that some people don't look at the food labels. If they did, and paid attention, the supermarkets wouldn't be stocking packaging covered with red marks.


 There have been any number of attempts to make the nutr info on the packaging easier to decipher. IMO the latest effort is less clear, not more, and I work in the industry. Nobody read it, and if they try they don't understand it. 



> Add to that the capacity and tendency for people to delude themselves into thinking that it's "just a little treat". Something you "treat" yourself to several times a day is not a treat, Senga.


This is the big one. I have a friend who has "just a little treat" of cheese and biscuits just before bed, every night. Just a treat. This person is obese, T2 diabetic as a result, has had bariatric surgery to mitigate her previous obesity, and has, by careful training, managed to maintain her ability to eat excessive amounts of food despite having a smaller stomach. Because she is a compulsive eater. It's not about the plate.


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## Eric Olthwaite (19 May 2021)

icowden said:


> BMI doesn't work for anyone who is significantly athletic as it doesn't take into account the ratio of muscle mass to fat, whereby muscle mass is heavier than fat. Thus if you are like the BiL who runs miles every day and cycles hundreds of miles per week, you will have a high BMI despite barely having any fat on your body.



I agree but as a point of detail, I would have thought the typical distance runner physique would have a low BMI and the typical sprinter physique a high BMI?


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## icowden (19 May 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> I agree but as a point of detail, I would have thought the typical distance runner physique would have a low BMI and the typical sprinter physique a high BMI?



Yep! I guess it depends where those muscles are and how big they need to be :-)

https://www.runningshoesguru.com/co... Council on,height than long-distance runners.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> I would hope so.
> 
> My point (obviously ill explained) was that "the man/woman in the street" does not always appreciate this, and, BMI becomes discredited, giving people yet another excuse not to tackle their fitness/weight issues.


The psychology of the situation is that regardless what anyone understands about BMI or anything else, they will carry on finding "reasons" to excuse their behaviour. Take away "BMI is unreliable" and they will move to something else.


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## BoldonLad (19 May 2021)

battered said:


> The psychology of the situation is that regardless what anyone understands about BMI or anything else, they will carry on finding "reasons" to excuse their behaviour. Take away "BMI is unreliable" and they will move to something else.



Agreed, I clearly need English Language lessons, but, I think we are on the same page


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## RoadRider400 (19 May 2021)

battered said:


> Go and have a look at the people in a takeaway. They are the people who can least afford the extra cost. Same goes for smokers, 20 fags a day is £10, or £300 a month. *Who has £300 a month to literally burn?* Yet they do. It's not driven by affordability. It's about the psychological need for gratification. This is a bit more complex than taxation. Raising the price won't work unless you aim to tax it at 1000%, in which case you may as well make it illegal, at which point people will simply eat in. I can eat in a pub for the same price as a takeaway. I can get a supermarket pizza for less again. Obesity isn't about what's on your plate, it's about what's in your head.



Why would anybody 'literally burn' £300? That seems extremely wasteful.

I would rather spend it on takeaway.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

The other thing that's being talked about in nutrition circles is "obesogenic environment". Essentially this boils down to the fact that people will eat what is available. We all know that if you put an obese person in a cell and feed them 2000 calories a day, they will lose weight, regardless of the composition of those calories (within reason, people still need enough protein/vitamins/minerals etc to exist). Some diets at that calorie level will be reasonably satisfying, others will have the patient/prisoner desperately hungry. Either way they will lose weight, they can't not, because they only get what comes through the door. Anyone who says "calorie counting doesn't work" is talking out of their hat, it certainly does. Where it falls down is that it's difficult to maintain psychological focus and discipline to only eat the 2000 calories allowed, and none of us here have to live in a cell and eat only what comes through the hatch. Thankfully.

We also know that if you live on fast food, with its focus on easy gratification, you will almost invariably eat too much and gain weight. Partly this is because it feels good to eat the stuff, partly because it's easy, partly because you eat faster so you ignore the "you are full" messages, partly because the foods are designed to be appealing and easy to consume. Sweet follows savoury, of course you want that big sugary Coke, it will wash away the salty chips flavour. If these are your choices then the bowl of lentil soup followed by an apple is not going to get a look in.

In between the two is a non obesogenic environment where the food choices are healthy. Many years ago there was an experiment in a children's home where the children were free to eat what they liked in a buffet situation. The buffet was stocked with normal cooked foods, recognisable as to what they were. For the first few days it was chaos, some children were living on potatoes and peas, others on meat and milk and apple pie. However after a while they settled down to a reasonably balanced diet. The experimenters then shifted to a buffet stocked with highly processed food that was not easily recognisable, and the children lost their ability to select a balanced diet and instead sought out food that was gratifying. Pizza, anyone?

We can therefore imagine that if we present people with exclusively "healthy" foods, they will find it difficult to overeat. Big bowls of salad, grilled meat in small portions, all the chickpea soup you want. Off you go.

Anyone here can eat a portion of fish and chips followed by a pint of Coke, or a beer. However take the calories in the drink and replace them with water and those from canned tuna or steamed chicken breast. That's about 3 standard cans of tuna. Off you go. Finish it, after your F&C, fancy it? Not much, no. Another Coke? Go on then. Another 3 cans of tuna? I'll give you a tenner if you can. No chance. 

However it doesn't work like this. In the real world you don't get faced with a choice of chickpea soup or lentil surprise, you get milk shakes and ice cream. Oh, just one.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

icowden said:


> BMI doesn't work for anyone who is significantly athletic as it doesn't take into account the ratio of muscle mass to fat, whereby muscle mass is heavier than fat. Thus if you are like the BiL who runs miles every day and cycles hundreds of miles per week, you will have a high BMI despite barely having any fat on your body.
> It does however work as a guide for most people, and most of us (I am guessing ) would like ours to be lower.
> 
> As mentioned previously it's just hard when that lovely M&S luxury chicken kiev is looking at you on a meal deal...


There are more athletes and professional sportsmen and women with a healthy BMI than those significantly over 25. I'll bet a substantial sum that your BiL comes in under 25, without even seeing him.

The "I'm heavy because I'm an athlete" copout is just that, a copout. BMI of 30? Unless you look like Mike Tyson when you take your shirt off, you're fat.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> It's a complicated issue. People are a product of their environment.


Their environment, their behaviour and their physiological type. In varying proportion.


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## dodgy (19 May 2021)

Point of order, I like a McDonalds breakfast or burger from time to time, I am also an enthusiastic amateur cook (seriously  ).
They aren't mutually exclusive. I've fed up of people on the Internet telling me I'm wrong to enjoy it. I do, so get over it, I also ride 10,000 miles a year 🤷‍♂️


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## Ming the Merciless (19 May 2021)

tyred said:


> What about those of us who ride fixed wheel?



Must be worth another 7kg.


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## Phaeton (19 May 2021)

@Moderators Maybe this post needs moving to Personal Matters & irrelevant posts removed.


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## Blue Hills (19 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> @Moderators Maybe this post needs moving to Personal Matters & irrelevant posts removed.


Not sure what this means unless i have missed something. What i see is a discussion of obesity and healthy eating. By the by if for whatever reason it gets moved to the nacas yard i won't see it.


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## tyred (19 May 2021)

I've always struggled with my weight. I am a lot lighter than I used to be but have put on weight this year.

There is definitely an emotional aspect for me because when I am stressed or feeling down I tend to over-eat. 

Also, I really struggle with self control. I never (or at least very rarely) buy things like multipack bars of chocolate from the supermarket as I'd eat the lot.

At times I've worked on it and got to a point where my diet could be described as really healthy but over a period of time unhealthy foods creep back in again until I'm back to where I started.

I have no idea what the answers are. I know what a healthy diet should be but despite best endeavours I always fall of the wagon sooner or later and have to start again. I am always amazed by the way some of my work colleagues might have a big bag of sweets or a packet of biscuits on their desk and only dip into it occasionally because I couldn't do that. They'd all have to be eaten at one sitting.


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## Phaeton (19 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Not sure what this means unless i have missed something. What i see is a discussion of obesity and healthy eating. By the by if for whatever reason it gets moved to the nacas yard i won't see it.


Who said anything about NACA


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## battered (19 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I've always struggled with my weight. I am a lot lighter than I used to be but have put on weight this year.
> 
> There is definitely an emotional aspect for me because when I am stressed or feeling down I tend to over-eat.
> 
> ...


The thing that I find helps my psychology is to keep a food diary, so that I know when I've fallen off the wagon, and I can identify patterns, in my case when I have a couple of drinks I say "wahey! Party time!" and stuff myself , and the other winner is to have one night a week when anything goes. However I only get the night off if I have behaved myself all week. Then if I want to eat a family pack of jelly babies, or crisps, or ice cream, or 4 pints, I can. I just have to wait, and stay on track. Of course, on arrival at Friday night, there's a limit to what I can eat. I can't do the family bag of crisps, ice cream, beer, e tc all in one go. Even if I could, I'm back on the wagon tomorrow. This might work for you, or a similar strategy.

Edit - I also add how I'm feeling now and again. It's worth knowing that hunger often gets you at about 4pm, so set aside an apple or a bowl of salad. I make up a low fat version of Marie Rose sauce (and variants thereof) with yogurt, and I dip carrot batons or celery in it as a snack. The mood diary tells you when these points are for you. I've also learned that if I go mad on Friday, as I'm allowed to, I can feel rough on Saturday. This helps me question whether it's worth it, bearing in mind that the rest of the week I wake up feeling fine.


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## Edwardoka (19 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I've always struggled with my weight. I am a lot lighter than I used to be but have put on weight this year.
> 
> There is definitely an emotional aspect for me because when I am stressed or feeling down I tend to over-eat.
> 
> ...


I'm exactly the same way. If I go to the supermarket or order food online I am the very model of temperance.
If crisps or chocolate are in the house, they're gone before I've even noticed myself opening the wrapper.

When I was down to my lowest weight I was physically incapable of doing a "big shop" - reliant on either the bike or the bus to carry it home.
I would usually get a takeaway once a week and would sometimes go to the chip van on a Saturday, but because I couldn't keep much food in the house, binging wasn't an option.



battered said:


> The thing that I find helps my psychology is to keep a food diary, so that I know when I've fallen off the wagon, and I can identify patterns, in my case when I have a couple of drinks I say "wahey! Party time!" and stuff myself , and the other winner is to have one night a week when anything goes. However I only get the night off if I have behaved myself all week. Then if I want to eat a family pack of jelly babies, or crisps, or ice cream, or 4 pints, I can. I just have to wait, and stay on track. Of course, on arrival at Friday night, there's a limit to what I can eat. I can't do the family bag of crisps, ice cream, beer, e tc all in one go. Even if I could, I'm back on the wagon tomorrow. This might work for you, or a similar strategy.


Interesting! I've been recently thinking about starting a food diary because I'm a grazer and have simply no idea how much I eat.
Do you use an app for this? It needs to be something trivially easy to use, because something that requires more than a few seconds to log an entry would inevitably fall by the wayside.


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## battered (19 May 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> I'm exactly the same way. If I go to the supermarket or order food online I am the very model of temperance.
> If crisps or chocolate are in the house, they're gone before I've even noticed myself opening the wrapper.
> 
> When I was down to my lowest weight I was physically incapable of doing a "big shop" - reliant on either the bike or the bus to carry it home.
> ...


An app? Bugger off! I use an A5 notepad and a pen. An app. I ask you.


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## shep (19 May 2021)

I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes?

Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight?

What are you eating!


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## Edwardoka (19 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes?
> 
> Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight?
> 
> What are you eating!


It is not possible to outride a bad diet. Trust me, I've tried, several times.
Feeling hungry after a ride? What better way to celebrate your "I'm improving myself" effort than to have a nice post-ride treat?
After all, you need to replenish your glycogen stores! - Oh go on then, just one. It is waffer theen, after all.
Don't forget about the salt lost to sweat! - Well, crisps are salty!


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## Reynard (19 May 2021)

Or drinking...

Alcohol, fizzy pop, fruit juice and smoothies are all pretty well much empty calories. And yet it's the one a lot of people don't think about. Quite a few of my cat fancy friends are always on about how they struggle with their weight, and then say ooooh look, I've got 50 different kinds of gin in the house... 

Anyways, I'm sloping off for a nice


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## battered (19 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes?
> 
> Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight?
> 
> What are you eating!


You can't outrun a bad diet. Left to my own devices I'd eat 3000 calories a day with ease. I don't easily gain weight, but if I did that's a pound a week. 4 stone in a year. My current regime has me on 2/3 rations and losing about 1 lb a week, or 20lb since Jan 6th. I'll let you do the arithmetic.


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## shep (19 May 2021)

I understand it's not easy, my missus isn't the thinnest of people, but I've never been able to understand 'comfort eating' or stress eating to be honest. 

Bad food tastes the best, we all know that, but surely you haven't got to eat bad stuff all the time?

Self control has to play a part here, I'm no racing snake but I've been 14 stone in the past, I'm only 5'8" but realised too much booze and crap food isn't the best so had to take stock. 
I'm 11 stone 4 now but if I sneak up to 11 and half I cut back and keep myself in check.


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## neil_merseyside (19 May 2021)

I'm terrible at portion control (greedy!) So if I've been bad I eat carefully all week apart from cycling lunches[1] (Wednesday and Sunday) and the weekend - Friday dinner to Sunday Dinner when it is eat anything - when I say anything it is actually all home made food and so it's healthy as it's made from decent stuff and not a ready meal, oh and not much portion control either, and we will (always) have a drink if we want. 
My diet as such is a lunch of a bag of defrosted cauliflower/broccoli/carrot/mixed veg that's just warmed through with homemade soup on top, dinner is ~300g boiled spuds again with homemade food on top - spuds is to reduce water load on my bladder overnight. Spuds and soup twice a day is a bit much, soups are 'posh' from the Covent Garden book batch cooked and many flavours to give choice. Fruit is always on hand, as well as tomatoes as 'sweets'. Breakfast is porridge and dried fruit on a diet day.
This diet will take 3-6lbs off me a week, 6lbs if I follow it exactly, or 2lbs if I cheat during the week (and that's eating dried fruit mostly).
I can do this week in and week out as it takes no thinking about and not really boring as it's only for 4 days total in a quite broken up week.

[1] Mostly a bacon butty or perhaps a cake, never both unless I've been really good. [2]
I do have beans on toast in those places that have decent bread (sourdough) but I'm not afraid of eating cheese on plain white toast.
[2] I reckon 2 x 60 mile rides a week helps a good bit, though if I get to 70+ I will often fall off the wagon and eat biscuits


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## Edwardoka (19 May 2021)

shep said:


> I understand it's not easy, my missus isn't the thinnest of people, but I've never been able to understand 'comfort eating' or stress eating to be honest.
> 
> Bad food tastes the best, we all know that, but surely you haven't got to eat bad stuff all the time?
> 
> ...


The ability to exert self-control is not a universal human trait, unfortunately. Different people are affected by impulsivity and compulsive behaviours to differing degrees, which is why some people are susceptible to addiction whereas others are not. Some can enjoy a few social pints, for some a nice refreshing glass of beer invariably ends up with them blackout drunk, others need alcohol daily to function, and others have to become strict tee-totallers because they know how susceptible they are to it.

Unfortunately, unlike other forms of addiction, food is a necessity to live, and complete abstention isn't an option.


----------



## tyred (19 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Or drinking...
> 
> Alcohol, fizzy pop, fruit juice and smoothies are all pretty well much empty calories. And yet it's the one a lot of people don't think about. Quite a few of my cat fancy friends are always on about how they struggle with their weight, and then say ooooh look, I've got 50 different kinds of gin in the house...
> 
> Anyways, I'm sloping off for a nice



As someone who could happily have drank a two litre bottle of Coke a day in my teens or twenties, it is the one thing I am genuinely pleased about that I no longer drink soft drinks. Giving Coke up was not easy but so worth it.


----------



## tyred (19 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes?
> 
> Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight?
> 
> What are you eating!



I've ridden in excess of 300 miles in a week on plenty of occasions. I can comfortably ride my '90s mountain bike 100 miles in a day (and I live in a hilly and windswept area). I power walked the 2 miles to the office and back every day when I was based there. Yet I've overweight. Calories mount up, especially if you eat a packet of Jaffa cakes in one go! A couple of bottles of Guinness and a bag of crisps is a nice post ride treat.

Interestingly, the times I've lost weight is the times I've not been cycling much as I tend to eat less. Exercise a lot and you need to eat more and I get carried away...


----------



## Reynard (19 May 2021)

tyred said:


> As someone who could happily have drank a two litre bottle of Coke a day in my teens or twenties, it is the one thing I am genuinely pleased about that I no longer drink soft drinks. Giving Coke up was not easy but so worth it.



Maybe I'm in a fortunate place because I don't actually like fizzy drinks. 

Edited to say that I'm teetotal as well.


----------



## tyred (19 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Maybe I'm in a fortunate place because I don't actually like fizzy drinks.
> 
> Edited to say that I'm teetotal as well.


I used to. I can still enjoy an occasional Coke but generally I have no desire to drink anything like that. I used to love Lucozade but I would feel sick if I tried to drink it now.

I've never been a big drinker, I don't like being drunk but I definitely do enjoy the relaxing effect of one or two beers or whiskies.


----------



## Reynard (19 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I used to. I can still enjoy an occasional Come but generally I have no desire to drink anything like that. I used to love Lucozade but I would feel sick if I tried to drink it now.
> 
> I've never been a big drinker, I don't like being drunk but I definitely do enjoy the relaxing effect of one or two beers or whiskies.



I find fizzy pop just much too sweet. As for alcohol, I never drank that much when I did - I was the sort of person who could make half a pint last all night, but I just fell out of the habit really and I don't miss it. Plus both my dad and uncle were alcoholics, and I've seen first hand the effect that drinking to excess has on people's health.


----------



## tyred (19 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I find fizzy pop just much too sweet. As for alcohol, I never drank that much when I did - I was the sort of person who could make half a pint last all night, but I just fell out of the habit really and I don't miss it. Plus both my dad and uncle were alcoholics, and I've seen first hand the effect that drinking to excess has on people's health.



I grew up with fizzy drinks really. My Dad was a lorry driver and amongst other things occasionally made deliveries to a local bottling plant and soft drinks manufacturer. I used to go with him and when I did the people at the warehouse would usually give me crates of soft drinks. On hindsight it is amazing that I am not a diabetic.


----------



## Reynard (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I grew up with fizzy drinks really. My Dad was a lorry driver and amongst other things occasionally made deliveries to a local bottling plant and soft drinks manufacturer. I used to go with him and when I did the people at the warehouse would usually give me crates of soft drinks. On hindsight it is amazing that I am not a diabetic.



Dad's family (his grandfather, IIRC) was involved in soft drinks manufacture, so I wasn't allowed them when I was little as I was always told they were full of nasty chemicals. (Which they are, really, when you think about it.)

When I did eventually have them, I realised fairly quickly that I didn't like them. They make me burp like crazy for one 

I'll stick to cups of tea


----------



## HMS_Dave (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> I understand it's not easy, my missus isn't the thinnest of people, but I've never been able to understand 'comfort eating' or stress eating to be honest.
> 
> Bad food tastes the best, we all know that, but surely you haven't got to eat bad stuff all the time?
> 
> ...



It isn't like that really. For moderate weight gainers like yourself, maybe. But for those who get morbidly obese, the taste of food really is a secondary or even tertiary prerequisite to their weight gain and hunger. Often people who truly get large are hiding underlying mental issues. Food becomes the emotional control like any other vice be that drugs and alcohol. All can be over done with extreme consequences... This is why some need help as they may not even know why they do it. It is also why you have "enablers" while those obese are no longer mobile. It isn't about feeding them and making them fatter, it's about satisfying their emotional well being, often seeing a remarkable improvement in their moods and the gratification that may bring but then follows shortly by a crash and the cycle repeats.


----------



## Blue Hills (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes?
> 
> Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight?
> 
> What are you eating!


general cycling doesn't burn that many calories - bike are so damn efficient.


----------



## Blue Hills (20 May 2021)

Edwardoka said:


> Do you use an app for this? It needs to be something trivially easy to use, because something that requires more than a few seconds to log an entry would inevitably fall by the wayside.


Myfitnesspal.
I lost a fair bit of weight using it - makes calorie counting very easy, or as easy as it can be.
I aimed for 1,500 calories a day, though doubtless my counting was a bit off.
Used in conjunction with my wetherspoons diet - drinking pretty much nothing in the house and avoiding alcohol stocks in the house as for me and I think many that goes hand in hand with gorging on snacks. So kept my drinking to the local pub. Alcoholic drinks can also be counted easily.
You can also enter daily exercise, notably cycling. That will highlight how few calories cycling burns compared to what you can shove down your gullet in 2 minutes in front of the telly.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> Yet I've overweight. Calories mount up, especially if you eat a packet of Jaffa cakes in one go! A couple of bottles of Guinness and a bag of crisps is a nice post ride treat.



Which is abnormal eating, there’s no way you’re going to manage your weight well if that’s the kind of thing that’s typical for you.


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## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes?
> 
> Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight?
> 
> What are you eating!



Let us take a 20 year old through the next 30 years. At that age they haven’t yet bought a car, they are fairly active most days. The balance between what they eat and drink and activity levels is fairly balanced and weight stable. Then they settle into a full time job, buy a car, maybe get married. Activity levels decline, but food intake doesn’t. They put on 2.5 lbs a year, barely noticable. Sure there’s a bit more body fat but they look not a lot different to the year before. Roll on 30 years and they’ve put on 75 lbs. That is 5 stone 5 lbs they’ve put on over 30 years.

Lets go back to a single year. Assume it’s 365 days. So daily intake x 365 = 2500 x 365 = 912,500 calories over the year. Now they have put 2.5 lbs on. So the excess is 2.5 * 3,500 = 8750 calories over a year. That translates to (8750 / 365) 24 calories per day, just under 1% of daily intake.

It doesn’t take much for weight to build up over the years given a small imbalance.


----------



## BoldonLad (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Which is abnormal eating, there’s no way you’re going to manage your weight well if that’s the kind of thing that’s typical for you.



Indeed. But, some people find it incredibly difficult to do, what to others come naturally.

My eldest daughter has struggled with her weight since her teenage years (now 50).

This actually happened: 

One day, some years ago, during a tearful discussion about the latest diet fail, she said "but, I hardly eat anything, and never eat chocolate or sweets". At the time she said this, she was eating a Mars bar!


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> One day, some years ago, during a tearful discussion about the latest diet fail, she said "but, I hardly eat anything, and never eat chocolate or sweets". At the time she said this, she was eating a Mars bar!



Yes denial can be strong with many, and perhaps they believe it’s the blowout meals that put the weight on, rather than the everyday treats such as the mars bar.


----------



## tyred (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Which is abnormal eating, there’s no way you’re going to manage your weight well if that’s the kind of thing that’s typical for you.


If it was that simple nobody would be overweight, nobody would smoke, nobody would be an alcoholic, nobody would have a drug problem, nobody would gamble away their home....but it's not that simple. Some find it difficult and struggle. Not everyone is perfect.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> If it was that simple nobody would be overweight, nobody would smoke, nobody would be an alcoholic, nobody would have a drug problem, nobody would gamble away their home....but it's not that simple. Some find it difficult and struggle. Not everyone is perfect.



I am not sure what you are trying to say. A package of Jaffa’s in one go or a couple of pints and crisps after every ride isn’t normal behaviour. I didn’t propose a solution for you. Plus of course a solution depends on whether you see a problem with it, not whether I see a problem with that kind of eating.


----------



## Phaeton (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it,


You're lucky, I also presume you don't understand Heroine addiction or Alcoholism, but for some food is the same, my issue is I eat too large a portions, I find it difficult to leave anything on the plate, I think this stems from when I was a child & was always told I couldn't leave the table until everything was eaten, starving children in other countries etc. My wife on the other hand eats far too much sweet stuff along with lack of exercise, again if she opens a 10 pack of Jaffa cakes she cannot just eat 2 or 4, the whole 10 will go.


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

The way I read it, _tyred _knows how calories get in:



tyred said:


> ... I'm overweight. *Calories mount up*, especially if you eat a packet of Jaffa cakes in one go! A couple of bottles of Guinness and a bag of crisps is a nice post ride treat.


[my bold]


----------



## tyred (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I am not sure what you are trying to say. A package of Jaffa’s in one go or a couple of pints and crisps after every ride isn’t normal behaviour. I didn’t propose a solution for you. Plus of course a solution depends on whether you see a problem with it, not whether I see a problem with that kind of eating.


I'm saying that not everyone finds it easy to say no to harmful things even when you know it's harmful. There are many reasons for this.

You seem to be implying that it's purely choice.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> I'm saying that not everyone finds it easy to say no to harmful things even when you know it's harmful. There are many reasons for this.
> 
> You seem to be implying that it's purely choice.



I said nothing about choice. I was just recognising it’s clear why the weight piles on with eating like that. Why you eat like that is a different question which I didn’t attempt to answer.


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## annedonnelly (20 May 2021)

Re portion control: when I had a new kitchen fitted last year they wouldn't fit wall cupboards the same depth as previously because "your dinner plates won't fit". So in the 30 years since I last bought them standard dinner plates have got larger. If your plate is larger you're going to put more on it, aren't you?


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## Phaeton (20 May 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> Re portion control: when I had a new kitchen fitted last year they wouldn't fit wall cupboards the same depth as previously because "your dinner plates won't fit". So in the 30 years since I last bought them standard dinner plates have got larger. If your plate is larger you're going to put more on it, aren't you?


Yes we tried buying some bowls, smaller than a plate which worked for a while, until like last night, a jacket potato, a piece of gammon, the corn on the cob wouldn't fit on the plate, solution get an additional bowl!


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## Phaeton (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I said nothing about choice.


Maybe I am reading between the lines, but I get the impression that you believe fat people are just weak willed & it's their own fault they are overweight. Which to a degree is correct but it is far more complex than that, just like alcoholics, gamblers, hoarders, obesity is a mental issue, but currently I'm not sure society treats it as such.


----------



## ianrauk (20 May 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> Re portion control: when I had a new kitchen fitted last year they wouldn't fit wall cupboards the same depth as previously because "your dinner plates won't fit". So in the 30 years since I last bought them standard dinner plates have got larger. If your plate is larger you're going to put more on it, aren't you?


----------



## battered (20 May 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> Re portion control: when I had a new kitchen fitted last year they wouldn't fit wall cupboards the same depth as previously because "your dinner plates won't fit". So in the 30 years since I last bought them standard dinner plates have got larger. If your plate is larger you're going to put more on it, aren't you?


I'm not surprised. Last year I did some work for a cake manufacturer. We exported some to the USA and had to rejig the packaging. Serves 8? No chance. Serves 6 in the USA. So it went on, with enormous helpings being the norm.


----------



## Low Gear Guy (20 May 2021)

Rooster1 said:


> The problem has been amplified by services like Deliveroo and Just Eat, people don't even have to get off the sofa to get their calories.
> And the only "treat" people have been able to have out is a Drive Through from Mc-edees.


Earlier in the year I went on a work trip and had to visit a takeaway in the evening. I was the only customer collecting in person while a whole series of delivery orders went out. Are people incapable of walking to the chip shop?


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## Phaeton (20 May 2021)

battered said:


> I'm not surprised. Last year I did some work for a cake manufacturer. We exported some to the USA and had to rejig the packaging. Serves 8? No chance. Serves 6 in the USA. So it went on, with enormous helpings being the norm.


I can understand that, some of the UK portions are unrealistic


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## Reynard (20 May 2021)

The portions on pre-packaged cakes always gets me...

I just can't finish what the packaging says is a recommended portion. I like a bit of cake, but I don't eat a great deal of sweet food, so the "this is too sweet" gets me long before "this is too much".

Take a chocolate muffin for instance. That's pushing 500 calories, which is the same as a decent plate of food. Yet it's seen as a snack alongside a cup of coffee or tea or whatever.

Am I mad for cutting my muffins in half and saving the rest for the next day?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Maybe I am reading between the lines, but I get the impression that you believe fat people are just weak willed & it's their own fault they are overweight. Which to a degree is correct but it is far more complex than that, just like alcoholics, gamblers, hoarders, obesity is a mental issue, but currently I'm not sure society treats it as such.



You are reading something between the lines that isn’t there.


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## Phaeton (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You are reading something between the lines that isn’t there.


Thank you for clearing that up & I welcome your change of heart


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## Ming the Merciless (20 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Thank you for clearing that up & I welcome your change of heart



Less of the passive aggressive if you please. You thought something that wasn’t there, I corrected you, I accept your apology.


----------



## battered (20 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> The portions on pre-packaged cakes always gets me...
> 
> I just can't finish what the packaging says is a recommended portion. I like a bit of cake, but I don't eat a great deal of sweet food, so the "this is too sweet" gets me long before "this is too much".
> 
> ...


No, not at all. Feel free to cut your muffins into as many pieces as you see fit (ooer missus!)
I've never got the hang of muffins. They look GREAT, I buy one and sit down dribbling, then I discover that it has a rather boring texture and no discernible flavour beyond that of sweetness. It's a real shame.


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## BoldonLad (20 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> ....
> 
> *Am I mad for cutting my muffins in half and saving the rest for the next day?*



Are you my wife's twin? 

My wife:

- cuts muffins in half, and keeps half for tomorrow
- opens a box (or packet) of Maltese's and eats three, keeping rest for later
- opens a bar of chocolate, and eats one square
- opens a Terrys Chocolate Orange, and eats one segment


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## annedonnelly (20 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Are you my wife's twin?
> 
> My wife:
> 
> ...


I am not your wife, but I would do exactly that. 

I have a box with some chocolate remaining from an Easter egg I was given. How long is it since Easter?

Wouldn't waste my time with muffins though - not those American things. Now a nice English muffin... toasted...


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## Reynard (20 May 2021)

Hah, well I'm not as bonkers as I thought then... 

I'll agree, some muffins are rather meh, but the Tesco bakery does these gorgeous triple chocolate jobbies with a a dollop of ganache hidden in the middle.  They also do lemon drizzle ones filled with lemon curd...

On the other hand, if I open a large (sharing) bag of crisps and leave them on the table, or a pack of pretzel sticks or marmite rice cakes, and suddenly, *POOF* they're gone. 

It does help if I take out a portion and put the bag away. Out of sight and out of mind, like...


----------



## neil_merseyside (20 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Are you my wife's twin?
> 
> My wife:
> 
> ...


Triplet then as I have one of those too.
- But no muffins as they are just sugar in a paper case and really disappointing when I tried one.
- If she has half a biccie then I get one and the half!
- Chocolate not so much, as I dare not start 'tidying up'
- I can never find the chocolate orange that our one slice came from, I'm sure they used to have loads of slices...


----------



## tyred (20 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Are you my wife's twin?
> 
> My wife:
> 
> ...


That's what I can't do, I'll either have none of it or eat the lot. I can't do the in-between. The idea of leaving uneaten sweets doesn't compute with me!

It's why you will never find confectionery in my cupboards. I don't allow myself to keep it in stock as I know I'll eat the lot in one sitting.

If I do feel like a treat I will buy a singular bar of chocolate or whatever in the newsagents even though I know I could more than likely buy a multipack in the supermarket for the same price. People tell me I'm stupid to do that but it's my way of limiting my consumption.


----------



## tyred (20 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You are reading something between the lines that isn’t there.


Sorry, like others I thought you were hinting that overweight people were just weak. My misunderstanding.


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> If I do feel like a treat I will buy a singular bar of chocolate or whatever in the newsagents even though I know I could more than likely buy a multipack in the supermarket for the same price. People tell me I'm stupid to do that but it's my way of limiting my consumption.


Yup, I sometimes do that, for the same reason. It does make a kind of sense!


----------



## shep (20 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> You're lucky, I also presume you don't understand Heroine addiction or Alcoholism, but for some food is the same, my issue is I eat too large a portions, I find it difficult to leave anything on the plate, I think this stems from when I was a child & was always told I couldn't leave the table until everything was eaten, starving children in other countries etc. My wife on the other hand eats far too much sweet stuff along with lack of exercise, again if she opens a 10 pack of Jaffa cakes she cannot just eat 2 or 4, the whole 10 will go.


I am lucky, when I'm hungry I eat enough to make me feel full.

I like a beer which we all know isn't that good for you but if I've had a blowout for some reason I'll cut back for a few days, I don't eat just for the sake of it.

I'm only guessing drug addiction eases a pain that can only be filled once you've had a 'hit' ? can't really see the same for food?

Like gambling, it's obviously psychological rather than physical because once you're 'full' you're full?


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> I am lucky, when I'm hungry I eat enough to make me feel full.
> <snip>
> Like gambling, it's obviously psychological rather than physical because once you're 'full' you're full?


There is almost certainly a bit of both; different bodies signal "full" in different ways. This has been studied extensively at a chemical level (insulin and blood-sugar levels are the tip of the iceberg!). 

You've noticed that some people have a "sweet tooth"? But not everyone! There are a raft of other differences between us.


----------



## Julia9054 (20 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hah, well I'm not as bonkers as I thought then...
> 
> I'll agree, some muffins are rather meh, but the Tesco bakery does these gorgeous triple chocolate jobbies with a a dollop of ganache hidden in the middle.  They also do lemon drizzle ones filled with lemon curd...
> 
> ...


Complete opposite to me - I could eat a whole packet of biscuits if I allowed myself but can’t manage an individual bag of crisps let alone a sharing bag.


----------



## Julia9054 (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> once you're 'full' you're full?


Full is complicated. 
Fat cells produce a hormone called leptin which signals to the brain that we are full. The stomach produces a hormone called ghrelin which, when detected by the brain, increases appetite. As our stomach fills up, less ghrelin is produced.
The leptin - ghrelin signalling response in an individual is determined by our genes so some people genuinely feel hungrier and find it less easy to control what they eat than others.
In addition, the more fat cells you have, the more leptin you produce. You would think that this means that fat people feel full quicker. Unfortunately, obese people develop leptin insensitivity so, although they produce more leptin than a slim person, their brain is less good at detecting it.


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## matticus (20 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Fat cells produce a hormone called leptin which signals to the brain that we are full. The stomach produces a hormone called ghrelin which, when detected by the brain, increases appetite. As our stomach fills up, less ghrelin is produced.
> The leptin - ghrelin signalling response in an individual is determined by our genes so some people genuinely feel hungrier and find it less easy to control what they eat than others.
> In addition, the more fat cells you have, the more leptin you produce. You would think that this means that fat people feel full quicker. Unfortunately, obese people develop leptin insensitivity so, although they produce more leptin than a slim person, their brain is less good at detecting it.


Isn't that what I said 2 posts ago?


----------



## Julia9054 (20 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Isn't that what I said 2 posts ago?


Yes. I added some detail


----------



## BoldonLad (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> That's what I can't do, I'll either have none of it or eat the lot. I can't do the in-between. The idea of leaving uneaten sweets doesn't compute with me!
> 
> It's why you will never find confectionery in my cupboards. I don't allow myself to keep it in stock as I know I'll eat the lot in one sitting.
> 
> If I do feel like a treat I will buy a singular bar of chocolate or whatever in the newsagents even though I know I could more than likely buy a multipack in the supermarket for the same price. People tell me I'm stupid to do that but it's my way of limiting my consumption.



Same here. 

On one occasion, I bought a large bag of Maltesers for my wife. The bag had a “self seal”. Wife opened bag, took out her customary three sweets, and, attempted to re-seal bag. 

Seal mechanism would not work. 

Wife complained to me about it, I pointed out that she was probably the first person in the world to attempt to re-seal bag (ie everyone else eats the lot).

I now see that I was wrong, there appear to be three other strange characters in the world!, and, they are on here!


----------



## Reynard (20 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> I now see that I was wrong, there appear to be three other strange characters in the world!, and, they are on here!



Well, I've never made any claims to my sanity - or lack thereof!


----------



## matticus (20 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Wife complained to me about it, I pointed out that she was probably the first person in the world to attempt to re-seal bag (ie everyone else eats the lot).
> 
> I now see that I was wrong,* there appear to be* three other strange characters in the world!, and, they are on here!


Talk is cheap.


----------



## battered (20 May 2021)

shep said:


> I am lucky, when I'm hungry I eat enough to make me feel full.
> 
> I like a beer which we all know isn't that good for you but if I've had a blowout for some reason I'll cut back for a few days, I don't eat just for the sake of it.
> 
> ...


All addictions share the same characteristic, that "enough" is never enough . Food, alcohol, heroin. Addiction is addiction. I've had morphine, in hospital. It's an amazing drug, for me there were no downsides. But I'm not going to take it again unless I find myself in the same position and it's being administered.


----------



## battered (20 May 2021)

tyred said:


> That's what I can't do, I'll either have none of it or eat the lot. I can't do the in-between. The idea of leaving uneaten sweets doesn't compute with me!
> 
> It's why you will never find confectionery in my cupboards. I don't allow myself to keep it in stock as I know I'll eat the lot in one sitting.
> 
> If I do feel like a treat I will buy a singular bar of chocolate or whatever in the newsagents even though I know I could more than likely buy a multipack in the supermarket for the same price. People tell me I'm stupid to do that but it's my way of limiting my consumption.


I used to live in France, a mate of mine there used to enjoy a cigarette. As in one cigarette. His strategy was to buy a packet of cigs and give it to his friend, then bum a fag from him for next couple of weeks. Then he'd buy another packet, naybe giving that to another friend, making sure his friends stayed in front. I asked him why he didn't buy his own fags and keep them in the car. "Because I'd smoke the lot. This way it's one or two a week."


----------



## matticus (21 May 2021)

battered said:


> All addictions share the same characteristic, that "enough" is never enough . Food, alcohol, heroin. Addiction is addiction. I've had morphine, in hospital. It's an amazing drug, for me there were no downsides. But I'm not going to take it again unless I find myself in the same position and it's being administered.


I got mildly addicted to morphine* in hospital. Luckily only in a small way. I'm glad that experts were controlling the supply not me, and when they took me off I didn't get massive withdrawal symptoms. I could imagine it being awful if you came off after several months on the stuff 

*Pethedrine too. No doubt spelt wrong!


----------



## Milzy (21 May 2021)

My wife is a district nursery nurse and finds 2 year olds + drinking full fat coke & energy drinks. 
Roma families like to force milk down their necks to make them nice & fat as it’s a sign of wealth/status. 
Disgusting behaviour.


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## Edwardoka (21 May 2021)

matticus said:


> I got mildly addicted to morphine* in hospital. Luckily only in a small way. I'm glad that experts were controlling the supply not me, and when they took me off I didn't get massive withdrawal symptoms. I could imagine it being awful if you came off after several months on the stuff
> 
> *Pethedrine too. No doubt spelt wrong!


When I came to after jaw surgery I felt magic for a while. The most serene I had felt in years - or indeed, since. I'd like to think that I had some kind of epiphany while under, but I suspect that the culprit was the stuff arriving via cannula.

Even if it weren't for the horrendous chemical dependence it induces, I can totally see why people would chase that feeling.


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## Ridgeway (21 May 2021)

Obesity isn't common here as you'd need to be a millionaire to afford to get fat

We had our yearly Chinese take away a few weeks back, 2 boiled rice, sweat & sour chicken, lemon chicken and one portion of noodles and that was £50 for a takeaway - Deliveroo won't be making Switzerland a target country

When were back in the UK, usually 1wk a year to see the family we do tend to go crazy on the range, cheapness and shear easy access to so much low cost food. We do also notice that the food is extremely heavily salted which we're just not used to, also even the bread seems to taste of sugar (?) I have to say though we do enjoy that week and my waist is glad it is only 1wk..... 

On the opposite side cigarettes are about 1/3rd of the price here and there's way way too many people that smoke here, even youngsters are still taking it up so we are way behind on that more serious topic.


----------



## Reynard (21 May 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Obesity isn't common here as you'd need to be a millionaire to afford to get fat
> 
> We had our yearly Chinese take away a few weeks back, 2 boiled rice, sweat & sour chicken, lemon chicken and one portion of noodles and that was £50 for a takeaway - Deliveroo won't be making Switzerland a target country
> 
> ...



Not to mention all those hilly bits that keep you all fit! 

BTW, sweet & sour sauce is made from the following: a splooshette of stock, pineapple juice (and chopped pineapple), garlic, ginger, chilli to taste and tomato ketchup. No need to spend oooooodles on a takeaway.


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## simongt (21 May 2021)

Arrowfoot said:


> taxes on junk food sugared drinks etc


With all the double standards that governments are famous for, why are sugary drinks being blamed when you can go into any branch of Greggs or similar and see row upon row of cakes, buns etc. covered in icing sugar and so forth - ? 
Hmm.


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## Milzy (21 May 2021)

simongt said:


> With all the double standards that governments are famous for, why are sugary drinks being blamed when you can go into any branch of Greggs or similar and see row upon row of cakes, buns etc. covered in icing sugar and so forth - ?
> Hmm.


Why should fit athletes have to pay a tax on such drinks? Nothing like a can of coke 50 miles in & there’s still 50 miles back home.


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## simongt (21 May 2021)

Milzy said:


> Why should fit athletes have to pay a tax on such drinks?


Er, what's that have to do with the sugary buns I was talking about - ?


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## BoldonLad (21 May 2021)

simongt said:


> With all the double standards that governments are famous for, why are sugary drinks being blamed when you can go into any branch of Greggs or similar and see row upon row of* cakes, buns etc. covered in icing sugar and so forth* - ?
> Hmm.



Coffee and cake, the highlight of our cycle rides


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## Eric Olthwaite (21 May 2021)

I sense an implicit sneering aspect to the whole junk food tax thing that puts me right off.
Take away pizza is junk food and should be taxed, whereas Comte and sourdough bread are real food and shouldn't.
But nutritionally, I'm not sure there is a significant difference between the two.
In the scheme of things, E numbers, "chemicals", etc don't really move the dial on the major issue of obesity.


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## Reynard (21 May 2021)

Oops, I forgot to mention the cornflour to thicken @Ridgeway 

Been having that kind of a day...


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## Ridgeway (21 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Oops, I forgot to mention the cornflour to thicken @Ridgeway
> 
> Been having that kind of a day...



Going to have to try it now


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## Reynard (21 May 2021)

Ridgeway said:


> Going to have to try it now



Cool 

Bon appetit.


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## FrankCrank (22 May 2021)

My brother had a BMI done there, and he said he was given a lecture by the nurse, and she was a proper hippo herself. Funny old world eh.


----------



## Eric Olthwaite (22 May 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> My brother had a BMI done there, and he said he was given a lecture by the nurse, and she was a proper hippo herself.



A hippo-crite?


----------



## winjim (22 May 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> My brother had a BMI done there, and he said he was given a lecture by the nurse, and she was a proper hippo herself. Funny old world eh.


It's almost certain that she knew more about his circumstances than he did hers.


----------



## Julia9054 (22 May 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> My brother had a BMI done there, and he said he was given a lecture by the nurse, and she was a proper hippo herself. Funny old world eh.


Is she supposed to not mention his weight just because she is fat? If it is a significant factor, wouldn’t it be negligent not to?


----------



## FrankCrank (22 May 2021)

The same brother is also a smoker, and I always bring back duty free ciggies for him. Did the same for my dad when he was around. Some would say this is a foolish thing to do, putting nails in his coffin or some such. I had no qualms, he would have bought them at the pub in any case. I'm a great believer in live and let live


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## simongt (22 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Coffee and cake, the highlight of our cycle rides


Can't argue with that - ! 
But then we usually work the calories off on the rest of the ride as oppose to just walking back to the car park - !


----------



## BoldonLad (22 May 2021)

simongt said:


> Can't argue with that - !
> But then *we usually work the calories off on the rest of the ride *as oppose to just walking back to the car park - !



Yes, I tell myself that too


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## simongt (22 May 2021)

FrankCrank said:


> The same brother is also a smoker,


Emphysema was one of the things that did for my older brother. My sister, of a similar 'everyone smoked' age didn't hint the warning and carried on. She now has terminal emphysema and only herself to blame, but a point she understands.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (22 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I agree.
> 
> I've never been much of a fan of pizza. Not that I dislike it, just that it's never been a favourite. Takeaway pizza I've had in the past has generally been disappointing stuff.
> 
> ...



Pizza is best whilst still hot. So if take away and eaten as soon as outside that’s fine. Take it home and not so good. I occasionally have a piping hot pizza before an overnight section of an audax. It does the business till dawn.


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## Edwardoka (22 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Pizza is best whilst still hot. So if take away and eaten as soon as outside that’s fine. Take it home and not so good. I occasionally have a piping hot pizza before an overnight section of an audax. It does the business till dawn.


It's also great if left to go cold. Leftover pizza


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## Ming the Merciless (22 May 2021)

Using apricot as an alternate pizza base is also great


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## Edwardoka (22 May 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Using apricot as an alternate pizza base is also great





Spoiler


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## Fab Foodie (22 May 2021)

It’s heartening to see after this subject has been debated ad-nauseam over the years, that we seem to be more aligned wit the view that it’s a highly complex and multifactorial problem much of which is mental-health related and socio-economic based rather than outdated and unpleasant tropes. Progress indeed!

We live in a world where we know more about health and nutrition than ever before. Food is also more abundant and safer than ever before. We know more about what’s in our food. Most people know the difference between health and unhealthy food and diet choices, so why don’t people make better food decisions? A major frustration from clinical dieticians is when treating patients who are obese that they find they know what they should be doing in terms of lifestyle changes to save themselves but seem unable or incapable of making those changes in any meaningful way. And it’s not as if there are any single causes, there are multitudes. Therefore solutions need to be in multitudes to match. There is no one solution, we must employ a range of measures if we are to have any impact on the Obesity Epidemic.

Too tired to go into more details right now, suffice to say, turning the tide will take a lot of effort in many sectors of society. There have been some excellent posts here....


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## Scaleyback (23 May 2021)

We seem to be living in an age of 'catch phrases' "Hands , Face, Space " etc so here is another that is simplicity itself but will solve the obesity crisis. ' Eat less, move more '


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## winjim (23 May 2021)

Interesting juxtaposition between the above two posts.


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## Scaleyback (23 May 2021)

winjim said:


> Interesting juxtaposition between the above two posts.



It's the 'modern' way (imo) we like to overcomplicate things ? that justifies a multitude of different 'experts' in all walks of life.


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## winjim (23 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> It's the 'modern' way (imo) we like to overcomplicate things ? that justifies a multitude of different 'experts' in all walks of life.


Yeah, I mean genetics is only four letters*, it's really not all that complicated.




*OK five, RNA fans.


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## Cycleops (23 May 2021)

This week the Beano has decided that the 'Fatty' character is now to be known as Freddy. That should help.
https://www.dailyadvent.com/gb/news...-the-nickname-Fatty-for-one-of-its-characters


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## FrankCrank (23 May 2021)

Cycleops said:


> This week the Beano has decided that the 'Fatty' character is now to be known as Freddy. That should help.
> https://www.dailyadvent.com/gb/news...-the-nickname-Fatty-for-one-of-its-characters


I see that Desperate Dan is long deceased. Not surprised, eating all those cow pies - should've been a veggie


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## simongt (23 May 2021)

Yup, this is obviously a 'fairly unique situation' - !


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## Fab Foodie (23 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> It's the 'modern' way (imo) we like to overcomplicate things ? that justifies a multitude of different 'experts' in all walks of life.


Actually it seems simple slogans are the modern way, after-all, who needs experts? It’s perfect for people who can’t be arsed to delve into the problem to understand it properly.
Get Brexit Done
Oven Ready Deal
Hands Face Space
Move more, eat less

If it really was that simple...


----------



## battered (23 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Actually it seems simple slogans are the modern way, after-all, who needs experts? It’s perfect for people who can’t be arsed to delve into the problem to understand it properly.
> Get Brexit Done
> Oven Ready Deal
> Hands Face Space
> ...


It's perfectly simple, that's why all of us have been members of pro cycling teams. You just do the training and boom, you're as fit as Eddy Merckx.


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## DRM (23 May 2021)

For some people who have been diagnosed with various illnesses they get put on steroids by the doctor, those things are evil, they make your condition better, but by god they make you eat like a horse, so for these people it’s really a case of the lesser of two evils, however every high high street seems to be inundated with take aways and I can’t see how they all can make a living when they’re actually empty most of the time, but they all send stuff out on just eat, deliveroo, Uber eats etc, but I’m certain that the majority are just there to launder money, perhaps councils should clamp down on allowing them all to open, in the nearest town to me there are 5x Chinese, 1 dominos 1 Pizza Hut, 4x other pizza places, and at least 6 curry takeaways and 3x fried chicken and 3 chippies, this is in one small town with a high street that is about 2 miles from one end to the other, back in the eighties there was 2 curry shops 2 pizza and two Chinese takeaways, how on earth did we get to where we are now


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## Fab Foodie (24 May 2021)

DRM said:


> For some people who have been diagnosed with various illnesses they get put on steroids by the doctor, those things are evil, they make your condition better, but by god they make you eat like a horse, so for these people it’s really a case of the lesser of two evils, however every high high street seems to be inundated with take aways and I can’t see how they all can make a living when they’re actually empty most of the time, but they all send stuff out on just eat, deliveroo, Uber eats etc, but I’m certain that the majority are just there to launder money, perhaps councils should clamp down on allowing them all to open, in the nearest town to me there are 5x Chinese, 1 dominos 1 Pizza Hut, 4x other pizza places, and at least 6 curry takeaways and 3x fried chicken and 3 chippies, this is in one small town with a high street that is about 2 miles from one end to the other, back in the eighties there was 2 curry shops 2 pizza and two Chinese takeaways, how on earth did we get to where we are now


It’s a fried chicken and pickled egg question - which came first, obesity or take-aways? I don’t know the answer. Did the rise in take away food as described fuel consumption or did consumption provide the fuel for more takeaways?
Why does there seem to be a relatively higher number of take-aways in poorer/run down areas? Maybe rents are cheaper? Is there are correlation between areas of high take-aways and obesity? What other factors such as socio-economics impact the rise or density of take-aways? 
it’s a complex question.


----------



## matticus (24 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Why does there seem to be a relatively higher number of take-aways in poorer/run down areas?


Because Michelin-starred restuarants don't make enough money there?


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## Fab Foodie (24 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Because Michelin-starred restuarants don't make enough money there?


Well partly.
But also I suspect that if hungry after a long hard days graft, that picking- up a take-away to have at home in front of the box is more appealing than a full tasting menu at Le Manoir....


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## Phaeton (24 May 2021)

Do the affluent buy ready meals?


----------



## Reynard (24 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Also there will be a higher level of car ownership in more affluent areas. So the affluent people have stocked up with ready meals from out of town supermarkets in their big freezers, which they consume while tutting about those frightful junk food outlets, over a bottle (or two) of quite decent red that you can get at a very reasonable price, my dear.



And yet, it's still pot, kettle, black...


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## Julia9054 (24 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Do the affluent buy ready meals?


Depends how much they enjoy cooking/how much time they have.


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## Fab Foodie (24 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Do the affluent buy ready meals?


Only from M&S or Waitrose.
Paul Hollywood uses the same Chippy as me, @Salty seadog and @Hill Wimp, the difference is that he parks his roller on the double yellows opposite and sends his minion in....


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## Fab Foodie (24 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Also there will be a higher level of car ownership in more affluent areas. So the affluent people have stocked up with ready meals from out of town supermarkets in their big freezers, which they consume while tutting about those frightful junk food outlets, over a bottle (or two) of quite decent red that you can get at a very reasonable price, my dear.


More of the myriad reasons. Me and Wimpers are Obese. We have a good diet, rarely eat out or have take-aways, cook from scratch, plenty salad and fresh veg. We don’t drink sugary beverages, we make our own bread. We like good food. Reasonable exercise levels. We do like our craft beers, gins, and Red wines however....
The solutions for us might be different than for others.


----------



## snorri (24 May 2021)

shep said:


> I just don't get it, this is a cycling forum so I guess people ride bikes? Even a modest amount of cycling should blow 500 to a 1000 calories off, Men are meant to have around 2500 per day to maintain their weight so how can people end up 5 stone overweight? What are you eating!


IME, the main contribution that cycling made to my weight reducing diet was the separation it created between myself and the fridge and food cupboard for the duration of the cycle journey.
Some discipline had to be learned in regard to the quantity of food consumed.


----------



## Mo1959 (24 May 2021)

snorri said:


> IME, the main contribution that cycling made to my weight reducing diet was the separation it created between the fridge and food cupboard for the duration of the cycle journey.
> Some discipline had to be learned in regard to the quantity of food consumed.


I find cycling just makes me so hungry I eat too much after! Running on the other hand doesn’t seem so bad. Not sure why.


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## tyred (24 May 2021)

I think I have an idea about how to use my bike to help me lose weight.

If I lay my bike down on the floor in front of the sofa, I might trip on it when I get up to go to the fridge and eventually if I trip often enough my subconscious will learn not to walk to the fridge.

If that doesn't work I could install some landmines under the lino


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## matticus (24 May 2021)

snorri said:


> IME, the main contribution that cycling made to my weight reducing diet was the separation it created between the fridge and food cupboard for the duration of the cycle journey.


Me too. And I'm serious!


----------



## Salty seadog (24 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Only from M&S or Waitrose.
> Paul Hollywood uses the same Chippy as me, @Salty seadog and @Hill Wimp, the difference is that he parks his roller on the double yellows opposite and sends his minion in....



Meanwhile my Roller, ok, Co-rolla gets parked up and I rub shoulders with anyone going to order mine in person.


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## Reynard (24 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> More of the myriad reasons. Me and Wimpers are Obese. We have a good diet, rarely eat out or have take-aways, cook from scratch, plenty salad and fresh veg. We don’t drink sugary beverages, we make our own bread. We like good food. Reasonable exercise levels. We do like our craft beers, gins, and Red wines however....
> The solutions for us might be different than for others.



Whereas I'm teetotal, don't drink sugary drinks and very rarely put sugar in my tea. No eating out or takeaways either.

Which means I have to be disciplined when it comes to food, as I have fewer areas where I can cut back on compared to most if the wobbly bits start to return.


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## Phaeton (24 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Paul Hollywood uses the same Chippy as me, @Salty seadog and @Hill Wimp, the difference is that he parks his roller on the double yellows opposite and sends his minion in....


Had to Google him, not a lot wiser now


----------



## battered (24 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> It’s a fried chicken and pickled egg question - which came first, obesity or take-aways? I don’t know the answer. Did the rise in take away food as described fuel consumption or did consumption provide the fuel for more takeaways?
> Why does there seem to be a relatively higher number of take-aways in poorer/run down areas? Maybe rents are cheaper? Is there are correlation between areas of high take-aways and obesity? What other factors such as socio-economics impact the rise or density of take-aways?
> it’s a complex question.


1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased.
2. The people who can least afford to eat takeaways eat the most. 
3. Fast food is very gratifying. People who have a less pleasant daily life are more likely to seek easy gratification than those who have a more fulfilling daily existence.


----------



## battered (24 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Also there will be a higher level of car ownership in more affluent areas. So the affluent people have stocked up with ready meals from out of town supermarkets in their big freezers, which they consume while tutting about those frightful junk food outlets, over a bottle (or two) of quite decent red that you can get at a very reasonable price, my dear.


who needs a car or to leave town? I used to live in Armley, Leeds. A mile away was Morrisons Kirkstall, another mile was Tesco Bramley, if you didn't mind getting stabbed. I now have Asda, M&S, Morri's, and Aldi within a mile. I can walk it in 20 minutes without even getting the bike out.


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## Fab Foodie (24 May 2021)

battered said:


> 1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased.
> 2. The people who can least afford to eat takeaways eat the most.
> 3. Fast food is very gratifying. People who have a less pleasant daily life are more likely to seek easy gratification than those who have a more fulfilling daily existence.


Agreed. I suspected as much.

Certainly the introduction of ‘western food’ into various regions of the world has heralded the rise of obesity in those cultures.

There is also a very strong correlation in Western regions between a sudden rise in Obesity and the onset of ‘the low fat diet’ and a switch to a more carbohydrate based diet.

Fast food is yummy, we design it that way and make it easy to prepare/purchase and consume.

BUT, nobody puts a gun to a persons head to make them have fast-food as their main dietary intake. Other more complex issues make that happen. That’s one area that needs addressing.


----------



## Fab Foodie (24 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Had to Google him, not a lot wiser now


Bake-off sleb....


----------



## winjim (24 May 2021)

battered said:


> 1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased.
> 2. The people who can least afford to eat takeaways eat the most.
> 3. Fast food is very gratifying. People who have a less pleasant daily life are more likely to seek easy gratification than those who have a more fulfilling daily existence.


France is fairly low down on the scale of European obesity. Certainly lower than the UK. Interestingly, Greece, Malta and Cyprus seem to be amongst the most obese countries which maybe says something about the supposed health benefits of the 'Mediterranean diet'. Czech Republic too, but I've been to Prague for a stag do and been served a ball of pork lard as a starter prior to a main course of pork fat with a side order of pork followed by pork ice cream* so I'm not really surprised.

In terms of UK diet, particularly children's diet, the amount and proportion of energy intake as fat is declining, total energy intake is declining, but sugar consumption is increasing...




*It may not have happened exactly how I remember it but there was definitely a ball of lard and much pork involved.


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## Blue Hills (25 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Also there will be a higher level of car ownership in more affluent areas. So the affluent people have stocked up with ready meals from out of town supermarkets in their big freezers, which they consume while tutting about those frightful junk food outlets, over a bottle (or two) of quite decent red that you can get at a very reasonable price, my dear.


Very true. No shortage of "high class" junk food in boxes. The supermarkets make their biggest margins on it I think.


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## Blue Hills (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Do the affluent buy ready meals?


Might be an idea to check out waitrose. (Edit, i see that the big W has also been mentioned upthread)
Of old of course the affluent had folk downstairs to produce their ready meals


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## winjim (25 May 2021)

View: https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1396035813000032259?s=19


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## Eric Olthwaite (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> 1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased.



Obesity has risen in almost every country in the world over the last 20-30 years. So it's pretty hard to claim there is a causal link to fast food.

http://publichealthintelligence.org/content/trends-overweight-and-obesity-country-level


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## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

winjim said:


> View: https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1396035813000032259?s=19



How do you carry £27k of food on a bike?


----------



## Scaleyback (25 May 2021)

It seems to me it is the widespread availability of food ( of all descriptions) that is the prime cause of obesity. No other species of the animal kingdom (that I can think of) suffer obesity, except 'man's best friend' and of course it is the dogs access to excess food via humans that is the cause. I can understand our canine friends overeating when access to food is available, they are unable to understand that their next meal etc is guaranteed. We humans do not have this excuse and yet even with all the health advice and dire warnings about what we are doing to ourselves a large percentage of the population continue to consume excess calories. Of course there are a myriad of contributory factors involved but the single overwhelming reason is the desire for food gratification and the lack of willpower to resist.


----------



## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> and the lack of willpower to resist.


It was all going well up until this point, is alcoholism & drug addiction due to lack of will power?


----------



## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> How do you carry £27k of food on a bike?


I multipack bag of Walkers Cheese and Onion and a decent bottle of red....


----------



## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> I multipack bag of Walkers Cheese and Onion and a decent bottle of red....


I cannot comprehend what £27K of food looks like, our Morrisions shop of £80-90 covers our kitchen counter, imagining the amount 270+ times that or am I mistaken in that it was not a single delivery?


----------



## battered (25 May 2021)

Eric Olthwaite said:


> Obesity has risen in almost every country in the world over the last 20-30 years. So it's pretty hard to claim there is a causal link to fast food.
> 
> http://publichealthintelligence.org/content/trends-overweight-and-obesity-country-level


It's really not hard at all.


----------



## winjim (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> I cannot comprehend what £27K of food looks like, our Morrisions shop of £80-90 covers our kitchen counter, imagining the amount 270+ times that or am I mistaken in that it was not a single delivery?


It was over a period. Someone's worked it out at £800 a week I think. With the price of takeaway food, I could manage to spend £120 a night on takeaway. I mean obviously I couldn't because I don't have £120 a night to spend on takeaway, but it's a plausible amount of food.


----------



## Scaleyback (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> It was all going well up until this point, is alcoholism & drug addiction due to lack of will power?



Ultimately, yes. As I said with food there are many contributory factors but no one is 'hog tied, and forced to consume drugs or alcohol (well very few !) At the end of the day people make choices, whether to have that burger, that 8th pint or inhale/inject something. Sure change the laws, make sugar and alcohol expensive, bomb the poppy fields in Columbia ( all contributory factors) You will not remove the simple raw truth that most people choose these life altering decisions.


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## newfhouse (25 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> You will not remove the simple raw truth that most people choose these life altering decisions.


1. It’s not always a conscious choice.
2. What makes them choose as they do?
Hint: it’s significantly more complicated than you pretend.


----------



## newfhouse (25 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> The simpler an explanation is the more certain you can be that it is incomplete or just plain wrong.


This ^^^


----------



## matticus (25 May 2021)

"1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased."



Eric Olthwaite said:


> Obesity has risen in almost every country in the world over the last 20-30 years. So it's pretty hard to claim there is a causal link to fast food.
> 
> http://publichealthintelligence.org/content/trends-overweight-and-obesity-country-level


Speaking as (ex-)scientist, I'd disagree; data collected from different experiments conducted in completely different conditions cannot _disprove _the results from another (in this case the French) experiment.
A scientist would view that as a clue that something else was happening; but it doesn't tell him that the French conclusion is wrong.


----------



## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> 1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased.
> 2. *The people who can least afford to eat takeaways eat the most.*
> 3. Fast food is very gratifying. People who have a less pleasant daily life are more likely to seek easy gratification than those who have a more fulfilling daily existence.



This equates with personal experience, when I worked as a volunteer at CA, a Food Bank, and a Debt Advice Centre. There is a similar correlation with scratch card purchase, general gambling, and tattoo acquisition, in my (admittedly not statistically significant) experience.


----------



## battered (25 May 2021)

matticus said:


> "1. In countries where industrialised fast food has been introduced (France) obesity has increased."
> 
> 
> Speaking as (ex-)scientist, I'd disagree; data collected from different experiments conducted in completely different conditions cannot _disprove _the results from another (in this case the French) experiment.
> A scientist would view that as a clue that something else was happening; but it doesn't tell him that the French conclusion is wrong.


It's our friend the "confounding factor" in science-speak. Put more simply "get used to the idea that there is generally more than one thing going on at a time" .


----------



## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> It's our friend the "confounding factor" in science-speak. Put more simply *"get used to the idea that there is generally more than one thing going on at a time" .*



Indeed. Taking another statistically insignificant sample, or 1 (ie me):

I was born 1947, into a "working class" household. Looking back as far as I can remember, we appeared to eat far more than now:

Breakfast : cornflakes or porridge
Lunch (we called it dinner): Walk home from school for something with chips (cooked in lard, in a chip pan)
Dinner (we called it tea) : Cooked meal with meat of some form with potatoes, vegetables, or, maybe a casserole
Supper (yes, we ate yet again!): toast and jam, or, maybe cereal

We never had coffee that I recall, but, tea came with two spoons of sugar, sugar was sprinkled on cereal liberally.

Fizzy drinks were almost absent (ie, one bottle of "pop" per week (I had two brothers).

Sweets, choclolate etc were almost absent, ie "a quarter of sweets, per child" once per week, if Dad had overtime that week, otherwise, zilch.

Activity levels were much higher, a one mile walk to and from school, twice a day (we came home for lunch).

We had no car, so, any outing involved walking/bus/train

Takeaway food, other than Fish & Chips were unheard of, and, were a treat, maybe 3 or 4 times a year.

I will stop there, it is getting boring

There was one fat child (a girl), in my primary school class of 44 children.

The contrast with my grand-children could not be greater, almost no activity, ferried to school and everywhere else, by car, fizzy drinks, sweets by the hour, although, strangely, they rarely eat what I would call a "proper meal". All 7 of them are overweight, one of them positively huge.


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## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

Instead of a tax on takeaway food, maybe it's time to tax chocolate, fresh cream, bakery goods,


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## Badger_Boom (25 May 2021)

Drago said:


> Massive punitive taxes on junk food. If peole cant afford it, then they won't eat it. May as well lock the thread now.


I agree completely, except that we live in a country where a lot of poorer people live off the stuff because it's cheaper (and more convenient) than healthy(er) food. We need to make proper grub cheaper and more attractive rather than punishing people who can't afford or don't know any better.


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## tyred (25 May 2021)

I wonder is a large part of the problem caused by the fact that many people today are always "grazing?" 

My diet as a child was far from healthy in hindsight but in those days we ate at mealtimes. 

Nowadays there are endless places to buy food of one sort or another no matter where you go and it's getting worse as during the Covid thing, pop-up coffee stalls and take away vans seem to be everywhere, even in remote places. It's always putting temptation in people's way.

People have more disposable income now too I suspect. There was a tuck shop at school but I rarely bought anything simply because I rarely had money to do so but today's youngsters are to be found buying food in McDonalds, etc.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Badger_Boom said:


> I agree completely, except that we live in a country where a lot of poorer people *live off the stuff because it's cheaper* (and more convenient) than healthy(er) food. We need to make proper grub cheaper and more attractive rather than punishing people who can't afford or don't know any better.



It would be interesting to see proof of it being cheaper.


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## Badger_Boom (25 May 2021)

Maybe it's weasel advertising, but a burger for a quid _sounds_ cheaper than a real meal.


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## Phaeton (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> It would be interesting to see proof of it being cheaper.


If you go into any of the supermarkets they all have a value range, take ham for instance, you have a huge range of price variation, from the processed stuff, which even looking at it is 25% fat, to the expensive hand sliced stuff that looks very lean, lots of the cheap stuff has added stuff to make it cheap, the stuff the more expensive items have removed.


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## Badger_Boom (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> The contrast with my grand-children could not be greater, almost no activity, ferried to school and everywhere else, by car, fizzy drinks, sweets by the hour, although, strangely, they rarely eat what I would call a "proper meal". All 7 of them are overweight, one of them positively huge.


In my experience, there seems to be a huge number of people who "can't eat breakfast" but can consume 500ml of foul tasting Monster at 0600.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> Instead of a tax on takeaway food, maybe it's time to tax chocolate, fresh cream, bakery goods,


This is the difficulty with the taxation solution. It's extremely difficult to hit the target without taxing other foods which to be honest didn't need it. As an example the sugar tax on soft drinks has hit cordials, which are now propped up with arti sweeteners to get the final sugar content below 5%, and tonic water, which was never consumed in excess and is, again, now arti sweetened to <5%. It has however been successful in reducing sugar consumption in carbonated soft drinks.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Badger_Boom said:


> I agree completely, except that we live in a country where a lot of poorer people live off the stuff because it's cheaper (and more convenient) than healthy(er) food. We need to make proper grub cheaper and more attractive rather than punishing people who can't afford or don't know any better.


Junk food isn't cheaper that health(ier) food. The last time I went to a takeaway it was £6 for a kebab. Saturday, since you ask. I was there because it was 10pm and I was drunk. £6 will feed me at home for 2 days, not a single meal.
Proper food is dirt cheap, all food is. I can buy you a chicken and a pile of vegetables that will feed an entire family for less than my Saturday night kebab. What you can't do is just cram it down your face.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I can think of occasions in my deep dark past where that was not the case. Although the tonic water was collateral damage, as it were.


One of the Two Fat Ladies chefs went to her doc with health problems. He ran checks and asked "have you been taking antimalarial drugs for a long time?" No, never. "Well, that's strange, because the blood tests show that you have mild quinine poisoning." 
You guessed it, the tonic water. You have to drink a LOT of tonic water to get quinine poisoning.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> If you go into any of the supermarkets they all have a value range, take ham for instance, you have a huge range of price variation, from the processed stuff, which even looking at it is 25% fat, to the expensive hand sliced stuff that looks very lean, lots of the cheap stuff has added stuff to make it cheap, the stuff the more expensive items have removed.


I work in food. The material that you add to cheap food to cheapen it is generally water. Fat is expensive.


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## Scaleyback (25 May 2021)

newfhouse said:


> 1. It’s not always a conscious choice.
> 2. What makes them choose as they do?
> Hint: it’s significantly more complicated than you pretend.



What is the opposite of a "conscious choice" an unconscious choice ? 😊


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## Scaleyback (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Indeed. Taking another statistically insignificant sample, or 1 (ie me):
> 
> I was born 1947, into a "working class" household. Looking back as far as I can remember, we appeared to eat far more than now:
> 
> ...



BoldenLad, I also was born in 1947 and If I had to post a synopsis of my childhood you could just have written it. In those days there was an occasional fat child and unfortunately they would get a 'hard time' Today, overweight/obese is almost the new 'normal' Peer pressure to look similar to the majority has largely been removed.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> What is the opposite of a "conscious choice" an unconscious choice ? 😊


How about a choice made without knowing the range of chouces available?


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## matticus (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> I work in food.


Are you as happy as a pig in sh*& ?


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## matticus (25 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> So I think that simply pointing the finger at fast food doesn't wash.
> <... massive snip... >
> Underlying causes are likely to be *many *and complex.


So... why can't fast food be *part *of the causes?

[I'm not saying it definitely IS! I'm saying that the other confounding factors don't RULE OUT fast food being a cause.]


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Phaeton said:


> If you go into any of the supermarkets they all have a value range, take ham for instance, you have a huge range of price variation, from the processed stuff, which even looking at it is 25% fat, to the expensive hand sliced stuff that looks very lean, lots of the cheap stuff has added stuff to make it cheap, the stuff the more expensive items have removed.



I am not attempting to compare Asda Smart Price products with ASDA Special, or the equivalent Tesco, Morrisons Etc etc, What I am saying is, buying a loaf of bread and some cheese (or ham whatever), to make (several) sandwiches is cheaper than buying take-away sandwiches, similarly it is cheaper to make a meal, than buy a take-away. Plus of course, if you make it yourself, you know what is going in to it. In just the same way, buying a jar of coffee to make several cups of coffee, is cheaper than nipping into Costa/Starbucks etc etc.

I am not saying that I don't do these "convenient" things, but, I do not fool myself into believing they are cheaper.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> BoldenLad,* I also was born in 1947* and If I had to post a synopsis of my childhood you could just have written it. In those days there was an occasional fat child and unfortunately they would get a 'hard time' Today, overweight/obese is almost the new 'normal' Peer pressure to look similar to the majority has largely been removed.



If we can just find a few more vintage 1947s, we might have a statistically significant sample!


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## matticus (25 May 2021)

So, to sum-up 40 years of changes:
- it's easier to get crappy food, more often
- it's easier to burn less calories

The psychology is less easy to summarise - my hunch is that humans haven't changed much. The two factors above have simply conspired to create health problems for those of us with the mental tendencies to do the wrong thing.

Where is my PhD certificate??


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## Scaleyback (25 May 2021)

matticus said:


> So, to sum-up 40 years of changes:
> - it's easier to get crappy food, more often
> - it's easier to burn less calories
> 
> ...



I think you have just 'cut thru' the pseudo babble and 'nailed it' hereby you will be know as Professor matticus and your PhD certificate is in the post.


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## matticus (25 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> I think you have just 'cut thru' the pseudo babble and 'nailed it' hereby you will be know as Professor matticus and your PhD certificate is in the post.


I feel honored. I would like to thank the following people who contributed to the research on this thread, but ...

well actually they're all idiots, and I've never met most of them.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

matticus said:


> Are you as happy as a pig in sh*& ?


Yeah, mostly. I like my job. I fix food factories, meaning I solve quality and hygiene problems, improve communication and engagement, and so on. I'm on the bench at the moment, a pandemic and leaving the EU have pretty much stopped everything other than chucking the stuff out of the door.


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## newfhouse (25 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> What is the opposite of a "conscious choice" an unconscious choice ? 😊


Perhaps, yes. Or maybe compulsion, addiction, persuasion. Sometimes people engage in patterns of behaviour that they know to be harmful; sometimes that’s *why* they do it. It’s not ignorance, laziness or a lack of moral fibre.

I’m not trying to say that this is the only reason for obesity - remember, nothing is that simple - but it is a significant part for some. No amount of taxation will dissuade them, and shaming will likely have the opposite effect.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I'm unconvinced by your thesis. Put that cap and gown puchase on hold.
> 
> I never had any problem getting crappy food 40 years ago. Fast food outlets aren't something amazing that were invented recently. I used to virtually live in Bilal's in Camberwell, what a kebab-master he was. And which came first, the chicken or the egg? Do fast food outlets drive obesity, or do obese people create demand for fast food?
> 
> ...


you'd do better to ask what came first, a population of chickens or a number of eggs. Nobody cares about the fate of an individual chicken. The behaviour of a thousand chickens, well that's worth looking at.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

The bottom line is, Humans are hardwired to fill up when there is plentiful food in order to survive the famine that's round the corner - the legacy of our hunter-gatherer past. Except in this day and age, and certainly in the western world, famine in incredibly unlikely. But our bodies still want us to eat as much as possible - just in case.

Also, re grazing vs proper mealtimes. When you graze, it's almost impossible to keep track of what you've eaten. It's been examined in various scientific studies, but I've also noticed that from my own experiences of "the munchies" i.e. if you're constantly snacking, you end up eating far more than you otherwise would. Whereas if you sit down to a proper meal, you can see in front of you exactly what you're about to shovel down the hatch.

And one point that's been raised several times on "Eat Well for Less" is that the body doesn't have to work as hard to extract the nutrients from processed food as it does from the home cooked equivalent. And as a result, you take in more calories because a) they're more accessible and b) because your digestive tract doesn't work as hard, you don't get that "fuller for longer" feeling and ergo you get the munchies and hit the snacks.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

matticus said:


> So... why can't fast food be *part *of the causes?
> 
> [I'm not saying it definitely IS! I'm saying that the other confounding factors don't RULE OUT fast food being a cause.]


It is part of the cause. But ask why again. Because it's gratifying. Mammals week out gratification, that's one thing that drives us. There's a reason why food, warmth and sex are gratifying. Without them we die and the species is screwed. Someone earlier said that you can't blame dogs for overeating because they don't know when they will next eat. Well, humans are historically no different, and the last few hundred years that have allowed most of us to escape famine have not affected our primal urges.


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## newfhouse (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> Because it's gratifying.


This is clearly true, but I think only part of the picture. Eating is so much more than an enjoyable process by which we extract energy from food. It has emotional, psychological and social meaning and context too.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

newfhouse said:


> This is clearly true, but I think only part of the picture. Eating is so much more than an enjoyable process by which we extract energy from food. It has emotional, psychological and social meaning and context too.


Of course it does. That's why it's gratifying. Gratification takes many forms.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> The bottom line is, Humans are hardwired to fill up when there is plentiful food in order to survive the famine that's round the corner - the legacy of our hunter-gatherer past. Except in this day and age, and certainly in the western world, famine in incredibly unlikely. But our bodies still want us to eat as much as possible - just in case.
> 
> Also, re grazing vs proper mealtimes. When you graze, it's almost impossible to keep track of what you've eaten. It's been examined in various scientific studies, but I've also noticed that from my own experiences of "the munchies" i.e. if you're constantly snacking, you end up eating far more than you otherwise would. Whereas if you sit down to a proper meal, you can see in front of you exactly what you're about to shovel down the hatch.


I know this is true. In addition I have a hypothesis (cue Monty Python, ahem: I have a theory) that the preparation of food increases this engagement in food and reinforces the awareness of what you are about to put down your throat.



> And one point that's been raised several times on "Eat Well for Less" is that the body doesn't have to work as hard to extract the nutrients from processed food as it does from the home cooked equivalent.


I'm not convinced about this. I don't think, and I have seen no evidence that suggests, that 100g of minced beef turned into a McDo is any easier for my body to digest than 100g of minced beef that I have turned into, say, spag bol. It may be easier to eat, it may be more appetising (hard to imagine, my spag bol is fantastic) but once down your throat your body can't tell whether the minced beef particles came in as a burger or as spag bol.



> And as a result, you take in more calories because a) they're more accessible and b) because your digestive tract doesn't work as hard,


 Not convinced. (a) no evidence, (b) no evidence.



> you don't get that "fuller for longer" feeling and ergo you get the munchies and hit the snacks.


This I agree with, it's a satiety thing. Now if you said that fast food is easier to *eat*, I'd go along with you. It is well observed that obese people eat more quickly than thin people, it is equally well observed that there is a time lag between having had enough to eat and the "you have eaten enough" signal being received by the brain. It's therefore more than plausible that stuff you can just cram down your maw is going to be eaten in greater quantity than stuff that you have to cut up, chew, etc.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> .....
> 
> *Also, re grazing vs proper mealtimes.* When you graze, it's almost impossible to keep track of what you've eaten. It's been examined in various scientific studies, but I've also noticed that from my own experiences of "the munchies" i.e. if you're constantly snacking, you end up eating far more than you otherwise would. Whereas if you sit down to a proper meal, you can see in front of you exactly what you're about to shovel down the hatch.
> 
> ......



Agree, reference grazing. In my experience, a similar effect occurs when drinking alcohol. If I drink in a manner, get a drink, finish it, get another one etc etc, then, I find it (fairly) easy, to control my intake, and, avoid outright drunkeness. 

However, in say a party situation, where gales are topped up, without ever becoming empty, then, I am afraid, outright drunkeness is a frequent outcome


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> I'm not convinced about this. I don't think, and I have seen no evidence that suggests, that 100g of minced beef turned into a McDo is any easier for my body to digest than 100g of minced beef that I have turned into, say, spag bol. It may be easier to eat, it may be more appetising (hard to imagine, my spag bol is fantastic) but once down your throat your body can't tell whether the minced beef particles came in as a burger or as spag bol.
> 
> Not convinced. (a) no evidence, (b) no evidence.



There have been studies done, but it escapes me where - they were referenced on "Eat Well for Less" however.

I should have been clearer that it is on processed food versus the home cooked version of the same thing. Highly processed and refined foods (and yes, ready meals are processed to within an inch of their life) are easier for your gut to extract the calories from than the same thing you've cooked at home from scratch.


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## winjim (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> The bottom line is, Humans are hardwired to fill up when there is plentiful food in order to survive the famine that's round the corner - the legacy of our hunter-gatherer past. Except in this day and age, and certainly in the western world, famine in incredibly unlikely. But our bodies still want us to eat as much as possible - just in case.


It's important to note, amidst all this talk of choices, that some people are more 'hard wired' than others. There are genetic and epigenetic factors at work. For example, a fetus which is small for gestational age may initiate a starvation response meaning that after birth and for the rest of their life, they have a greater propensity to eat as much as they can and store the energy as fat. This has an effect on not only their weight but also morbidities such as CV disease, diabetes etc.

And... here's the interesting bit, the starvation response is achieved by DNA methylation _in utero_, silencing various genes and activating others. This methylation is itself heritable, meaning that the starvation response is passed down through the generations. So if your grandmother had a small baby, it is possible that you and your children will have that epigenetic alteration and be prone to overeating and obesity.

Then you have the effect of particularly fat and sugar combinations which are not found 'naturally', triggering hormonal responses which we've not properly adapted to, be it addictive pleasure responses or simply messing with our sense of satiety. We haven't evolved to eat this sort of modern diet and it does weird things to our brain.

I'm sure there's more, that's all just basic biology before we even get into psychological and socioeconomic issues. So anybody who claims that it's a 'simple' matter of 'choice' needs to think about their own circumstances and how they may differ from others not just at a superficial level but also at a deeper level, possibly going back generations.




Yes I have just taken a nutrition exam and yes I think I did alright in it, thanks for asking.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> There have been studies done, but it escapes me where - they were referenced on "Eat Well for Less" however.
> 
> I should have been clearer that it is on processed food versus the home cooked version of the same thing. Highly processed and refined foods (and yes, ready meals are processed to within an inch of their life) are easier for your gut to extract the calories from than the same thing you've cooked at home from scratch.


I make ready meals, amongst other things, for a living. They are not "processed to within an inch of their life". I can walk you through the manufacture of, say, a meat pie and demonstrate this. The thing that changes is the scale. They are not easier for your gut to digest. 
Edit - the whole point of manufactured foods is that they are as close as is humanly possible to something that you make at home. There have been great strides in "clean label" development etc. The point is here that if you read the ingredients you won't often find anything that sounds like a chemistry set, you will find stuff you can buy in the supermarket. This means no more modified starch, but more "maize starch" and "potato flour". No more E162, but more "beetroot juice". I might make flaky pastry on a 72-fold laminator, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's no different from me rolling and folding at home 72 times, or an artisan baker doing the same thing with a series of passes through a Rondo. It's just quicker, and fortunately I don't make a tonne of pastry at a time in my kitchen, or add butter 25kg at a time.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

winjim said:


> It's important to note, amidst all this talk of choices, that some people are more 'hard wired' than others. There are genetic and epigenetic factors at work. For example, a fetus which is small for gestational age may initiate a starvation response meaning that after birth and for the rest of their life, they have a greater propensity to eat as much as they can and store the energy as fat. This has an effect on not only their weight but also morbidities such as CV disease, diabetes etc.
> 
> And... here's the interesting bit, the starvation response is achieved by DNA methylation _in utero_, silencing various genes and activating others. This methylation is itself heritable, meaning that the starvation response is passed down through the generations. So if your grandmother had a small baby, it is possible that you and your children will have that epigenetic alteration and be prone to overeating and obesity.
> 
> ...



Oh, I'm not going to argue with that. 

As I mentioned upthread, the women on my dad's side of the family are short, like to eat (read grazing) and are, well, lardy. Oddly, the blokes were all pushing 6ft and skinny.

I'm, erm, undertall and I rather like my food. But I do manage to stay at a sensible size (8 / 10), because the vision of one of my dad's cousins in a red velour tracksuit is, shall I say, rather motivational. 

Having said that, I have been a size 16 a few times in my life, and on my 4ft 11 frame, that is most definitely not good. So I'm no angel, but I do know what my weaknesses are and I try my best to avoid falling into old habits.


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## Oldhippy (25 May 2021)

I don't know if it is true or not but I seem to remember being told/read somewhere that McD chips had 20 odd ingredients! How? Short of reconstituted mush with added crap I can't imagine how they would manage it. Wouldn't surprise me though.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> I make ready meals, amongst other things, for a living. They are not "processed to within an inch of their life". I can walk you through the manufacture of, say, a meat pie and demonstrate this. The thing that changes is the scale. They are not easier for your gut to digest.
> Edit - the whole point of manufactured foods is that they are as close as is humanly possible to something that you make at home. There have been great strides in "clean label" development etc. The point is here that if you read the ingredients you won't often find anything that sounds like a chemistry set, you will find stuff you can buy in the supermarket. This means no more modified starch, but more "maize starch" and "potato flour". No more E162, but more "beetroot juice". I might make flaky pastry on a 72-fold laminator, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's no different from me rolling and folding at home 72 times, or an artisan baker doing the same thing with a series of passes through a Rondo. It's just quicker, and fortunately I don't make a tonne of pastry at a time in my kitchen, or add butter 25kg at a time.



I can only go by what my friends who also work in the food industry say. There are ready meals and there are ready meals, I suppose. 

On the flip side, I am a champion preserve maker, and when I compare the list of ingredients for my marmalades and chutneys to what's in the ones available in the supermarkets, the mind does boggle somewhat.


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## neil_merseyside (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> I make ready meals, amongst other things, for a living. They are not "processed to within an inch of their life". I can walk you through the manufacture of, say, a meat pie and demonstrate this. The thing that changes is the scale. They are not easier for your gut to digest.
> Edit - the whole point of manufactured foods is that they are as close as is humanly possible to something that you make at home. There have been great strides in "clean label" development etc. The point is here that if you read the ingredients you won't often find anything that sounds like a chemistry set, you will find stuff you can buy in the supermarket. This means no more modified starch, but more "maize starch" and "potato flour". No more E162, but more "beetroot juice". I might make flaky pastry on a 72-fold laminator, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's no different from me rolling and folding at home 72 times, or an artisan baker doing the same thing with a series of passes through a Rondo. It's just quicker, and fortunately I don't make a tonne of pastry at a time in my kitchen, or add butter 25kg at a time.



A ready meal isn't a meat pie though is it in the context of this conversation, it is the 99p fish pie or cottage pie et


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> . But I do manage to stay at a sensible size (8 / 10), because the vision of one of my dad's cousins in a red velour tracksuit is, shall I say, rather motivational.


My motivation came at a "well man" checkup around Christmas.
- About 1.5 st overweight according to the height/weight chart, BMI 27ish.
- 34 waist for 5ft6, so don't get fatter.
- 3 goes at the blood pressure til she got one she liked.
- Cholesterol came back high.
4 out of 4. That's a pretty good score.
So I sorted it out, starting mid January. It's taken 4 months, but it's possible. What's most interesting is that I have known about this for 2 years and not tackled it. If I could bottle the motivation I've found and sell it, I'd be a millionaire within a week.


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## battered (25 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> A ready meal isn't a meat pie though is it in the context of this conversation, it is the 99p fish pie or cottage pie et


I've made those too. I can bore you to death on the subject of weight control via Turbo depositors and Ishida multihead weighers, but I'll spare you the details. There's very little difference between a meat pie and a ready meal, it's just manufacturing. I may use a travelling oven with a heating section 20m long, but it's just an oven with a steel conveyor belt travelling at a particular speed and giving a particular dwell time.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> My motivation came at a "well man" checkup around Christmas.
> - About 1.5 st overweight according to the height/weight chart, BMI 27ish.
> - 34 waist for 5ft6, so don't get fatter.
> - 3 goes at the blood pressure til she got one she liked.
> ...





A quick way to check you're not carrying too much of a spare tyre is to cut a piece of string the same height as yourself, fold it double and put it around your waist. Ideally, your waist should be less than half your height.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> This equates with personal experience, when I worked as a volunteer at CA, a Food Bank, and a Debt Advice Centre. There is a similar correlation with scratch card purchase, general gambling, and tattoo acquisition, in my (admittedly not statistically significant) experience.


The common denominator is that they are all means of self gratification. The super-rich buy yachts, houses and Ferarris, the poor buy take-aways, tattoos and scratch cards. They’re almost 2 sides of the same coin....


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## winjim (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> The common denominator is that they are all means of self gratification. The super-rich buy yachts, houses and Ferarris, the poor buy take-aways, tattoos and scratch cards. They’re almost 2 sides of the same coin....


The middle class gamble on the stock market and in other financial deals, the difference being that a lot of the time when they get it wrong, we all lose.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> This is the difficulty with the taxation solution. It's extremely difficult to hit the target without taxing other foods which to be honest didn't need it. As an example the sugar tax on soft drinks has hit cordials, which are now propped up with arti sweeteners to get the final sugar content below 5%, and tonic water, which was never consumed in excess and is, again, now arti sweetened to <5%. It has however been successful in reducing sugar consumption in carbonated soft drinks.


I’m generally in favour of nudge taxation and fully support the sugar tax. High Sugar carbonated drinks offer no nutritional benefit so that’s quite straightforward. One could make the same arguments for cake and confectionary. 
There are foods however that might be high in sugars, Salt and fats that do however offer other nutritional benefits. Potato crisps (as opposed to Maize snacks) coukd be argued to be beneficial in that for many people a bag of crisps might be a significant source of vitamin C and fibre despite the fat and salt content. Milk is now frowned-upon, but it’s a source of great nutrition. Cheese is high fat, but a good source of Calcium and so on and so forth (I know you know this stuff). So nudge taxing is complex, however, I think there are foods for which some nutritional benefit can be claimed vs.those that are bereft of any goodness but high in cals/salt/sugar etc.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> One of the Two Fat Ladies chefs went to her doc with health problems. He ran checks and asked "have you been taking antimalarial drugs for a long time?" No, never. "Well, that's strange, because the blood tests show that you have mild quinine poisoning."
> You guessed it, the tonic water. You have to drink a LOT of tonic water to get quinine poisoning.


She wasn’t diluting her tonic enough....


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> If we can just find a few more vintage 1947s, we might have a statistically significant sample!



1947 vintage reporting for duty! 

I suppose from a lower-middle-class background - dad was a schoolteacher, that being the first step up the ladder - a keen gardener, with a large allotment and a greenhouse, and mum was a excellent cook, as well as being that unusual thing - a working married woman, and mother, in the 1940s and 50s. 
We seemed to eat and eat and _eat. _My aunts on both sides of the family seemed to be in perpetual competition with each other as to who could put the greatest amount of food on the table and which of my cousins could eat the most - yet none of us were fat; I had one cousin who was referred to as a 'bonny lass' until the age of about 9 when a growth spurt saw her rapidly change into a skinny-ma-link! My two boy cousins were said to have 'hollow legs' - where else did all the food they ate, go? Cooked breakfasts, elevenses, hot dinners, cooked teas, suppers ...
We were undoubtedly much more active in all sorts of obvious, and not so obvious ways and access to junk food much more restricted. Shops were open very restricted hours; even those children who had the money, couldn't buy sweets, crisps and fizzy drinks if the shop was closed, could they? 
If anyone doubts that 'real' food is lots, _lots _cheaper than 'fast' food, they need to have a look at the blog https://cookingonabootstrap.com/
But of course to cook 'real' food, you need to (a) know how and (b) have a minimum of equipment to actually do it. A kilo of potatoes is cheap, but if you don't have a pan and a hob at a minimum, you're still going to go hungry ...


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

matticus said:


> So... why can't fast food be *part *of the causes?
> 
> [I'm not saying it definitely IS! I'm saying that the other confounding factors don't RULE OUT fast food being a cause.]


Well it can and it is!


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## neil_merseyside (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> I've made those too. I can bore you to death on the subject of weight control via Turbo depositors and Ishida multihead weighers, but I'll spare you the details. There's very little difference between a meat pie and a ready meal, it's just manufacturing. I may use a travelling oven with a heating section 20m long, but it's just an oven with a steel conveyor belt travelling at a particular speed and giving a particular dwell time.


It's the ingredients not the big appliances that make the difference, it is the extra ingredients used over a home recipe and the cheap nasty versions of these home and added ingredients, oh and the fact that the flavour only comes from salt, sugar or fat. Want a low fat variety? Drop the fat and up the sugar, I stopped the manufacture of printing cyclinders for McV lite digestives as the calorie count was 10% up on the standard! I got into a lot of trouble as it seems low fat was true, but they had just upped the sugar to compensate.


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> ...when I compare the list of ingredients for my marmalades and chutneys to what's in the ones available in the supermarkets, the mind does boggle somewhat.


I bake as a hobby - have been baking for over 60 years - and I say the same about my cakes.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> There have been studies done, but it escapes me where - they were referenced on "Eat Well for Less" however.
> 
> I should have been clearer that it is on processed food versus the home cooked version of the same thing. Highly processed and refined foods (and yes, ready meals are processed to within an inch of their life) are easier for your gut to extract the calories from than the same thing you've cooked at home from scratch.


I’ve seen evidence to the contrary, including data that’s shown when analysed that home- made products such as bolognese, curries, shepherds pie etc. are worse for you (higher salt and fat) than ready-meal alternatives.
It’s really not that simple. An industrial ‘ready’ meal is generally made exactly as you’d do at home but the scale is bigger and the control far better. The Gregg Wallace progs are worth it to see that in action.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> The common denominator is that they are all means of self gratification. The super-rich buy yachts, houses and Ferarris, the poor buy take-aways, tattoos and scratch cards. They’re almost 2 sides of the same coin....





winjim said:


> The middle class gamble on the stock market and in other financial deals, the difference being that a lot of the time when they get it wrong, we all lose.



Isn't the difference in the level of or control of self gratification (including gambling)? 

Many of us indulge in our little vices (drinking alcohol, smoking, gambling including stock market, eating too much or unhealthily), but, not to the point that it ruins our lives.

Some of us even buy more bicycles than we actually "need", but, we don't bankrupt ourselves, and/or deprive our children to do it.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

battered said:


> I make ready meals, amongst other things, for a living. They are not "processed to within an inch of their life". I can walk you through the manufacture of, say, a meat pie and demonstrate this. The thing that changes is the scale. They are not easier for your gut to digest.
> Edit - the whole point of manufactured foods is that they are as close as is humanly possible to something that you make at home. There have been great strides in "clean label" development etc. The point is here that if you read the ingredients you won't often find anything that sounds like a chemistry set, you will find stuff you can buy in the supermarket. This means no more modified starch, but more "maize starch" and "potato flour". No more E162, but more "beetroot juice". I might make flaky pastry on a 72-fold laminator, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's no different from me rolling and folding at home 72 times, or an artisan baker doing the same thing with a series of passes through a Rondo. It's just quicker, and fortunately I don't make a tonne of pastry at a time in my kitchen, or add butter 25kg at a time.


Bugger...just made the same point!!


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I don't know if it is true or not but I seem to remember being told/read somewhere that McD chips had 20 odd ingredients! How? Short of reconstituted mush with added crap I can't imagine how they would manage it. Wouldn't surprise me though.


You were told bollocks.


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## Oldhippy (25 May 2021)

I guessed as much.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> 1947 vintage reporting for duty!
> 
> I suppose from a lower-middle-class background - dad was a schoolteacher, that being the first step up the ladder - a keen gardener, with a large allotment and a greenhouse, and mum was a excellent cook, as well as being that unusual thing - a working married woman, and mother, in the 1940s and 50s.
> We seemed to eat and eat and _eat. _My aunts on both sides of the family seemed to be in perpetual competition with each other as to who could put the greatest amount of food on the table and which of my cousins could eat the most - yet none of us were fat; I had one cousin who was referred to as a 'bonny lass' until the age of about 9 when a growth spurt saw her rapidly change into a skinny-ma-link! My two boy cousins were said to have 'hollow legs' - where else did all the food they ate, go? Cooked breakfasts, elevenses, hot dinners, cooked teas, suppers ...
> ...



"Bonny lass", haven't heard that expression for a while!

Sounds like you experiences were not too dissimilar to mine, even if you were more affluent.

The bolded bit is a definite problem, agreed.


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## matticus (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I can only go by what my friends who also work in the food industry say. There are ready meals and there are ready meals, I suppose.


Yes. I don't have any evidence, but I think ready meals vary enormously. I can well believe that @battered makes stuff with less presvatives, less refined carbs - that sort of thing - than many. I'll have a look in Sains ... I mean Fortnum's later!


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I guessed as much.



UK/EU McD's fries - maximum 3 (or four If you consider the oils separately) ingredients viz spuds, unhydrogenated vegetable oil(blend of sunflower and rapeseed) and - at the beginning of the harvesting season for spuds - a little dextrose. Ie basically deep fried potatoes.
US McD's fries - 14 ingredients I believe. Including salt added before cooking, an anti-foaming agent and hydrogenated oils as well as hydrolysed wheat and milk, which result in an 'addictive' umami flavour - and result in the US fries not being vegan friendly. Or me-friendly either if they use milk from rbST-treated cows ...


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> I’ve seen evidence to the contrary, including data that’s shown when analysed that home- made products such as bolognese, curries, shepherds pie etc. are worse for you (higher salt and fat) than ready-meal alternatives.



Ah, but that totally depends on the cook, doesn't it?

This is the advantage (or not as the case may sometimes be) of home cooking that you can make something as healthy or as naughty as you want it to be.

For instance, with spag bol and cottage pie, I will use half beef, half green lentils and dry fry the beef. No one says I *have* to put half a cake of butter in mashed potato or a whole tub of full fat yoghurt or cream in a curry.

I tend to find it amusing when I do have a ready meal (I very rarely buy them), that there tends to be a fair bit of fat / oil puddled on top. Much more so than when I cook the same thing at home.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I bake as a hobby - have been baking for over 60 years - and I say the same about my cakes.



I've just made a batch of marmalade today as I had some bits that wanted using up. Nothing in it but oranges, tangerines, ginger, just enough water to cover and the same weight of sugar to what I had uncut fruit.

Shop bought marmalade is up to 70% sugar and is made with fruit juice, gelling agent (probably corn starch), added pectin and maybe a sniff of peel in there somewhere. I mean you can buy a jar of marmalade for 27p...


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Ah, but that totally depends on the cook, doesn't it?
> 
> This is the advantage (or not as the case may sometimes be) of home cooking that you can make something as healthy or as naughty as you want it to be.
> 
> ...


This is true. Watch a TV chef ‘globbing in the Olive oil’ and ‘liberal sprinkling of salt’. But in general the point still stands. You and I may be outliers!


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Isn't the difference in the level of or control of self gratification (including gambling)?
> 
> Many of us indulge in our little vices (drinking alcohol, smoking, gambling including stock market, eating too much or unhealthily), but, not to the point that it ruins our lives.
> 
> Some of us even buy more bicycles than we actually "need", but, we don't bankrupt ourselves, and/or deprive our children to do it.


But that’s a question of wealth, not the need for gratification.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> It's the ingredients not the big appliances that make the difference, it is the extra ingredients used over a home recipe and the cheap nasty versions of these home and added ingredients, oh and the fact that the flavour only comes from salt, sugar or fat. Want a low fat variety? Drop the fat and up the sugar, I stopped the manufacture of printing cyclinders for McV lite digestives as the calorie count was 10% up on the standard! I got into a lot of trouble as it seems low fat was true, but they had just upped the sugar to compensate.


That’s a valid point.
If you want to make ham with just salt you’ll get to hold about 5% water. Add phosphates, a few percent more. Now, start adding a variety of gums an stabilisers you can get 50% water added.
There are ingredients that perfom a wide range of functions to increase fat content, water content, extend shelf life, enhance flavour yadda yadda, but these days these are being engineered-out in most retail and QSR food supplies. However...in a lot of very cheap and particularly take-away foods these products do exist to make food seemingly very cheap indeed.
However, most major supermarkets, brands and QSR outlets in the UK are working against this.

EDIT:

Now consider the hot roast chickens and parts you can buy in a supermarket Deli counter. These have been cooked once at the factory, distributed chilled and then reheated and held hot for say 30 mins. Do that with a chicken at home and it will be dry snd tough as old boots. In this case some water holding and flavour technology delivers a product quality which should ordinarily not be possible.

Sugar-free products can only exist with ‘ingredient technology’.
It’s complicated...


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> But that’s a question of wealth, not the need for gratification.



Wealth is relative, we don’t all have yachts, etc


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Wealth is relative, we don’t all have yachts, etc


But we all need some form of gratification. I have a farmer acquaintance who has just made £400k profit for the year, he doesn’t know what to spend it on. If you’re on benefits, anything that’s not essential will hit your budget significantly.


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> This is true. Watch a TV chef ‘globbing in the Olive oil’ and ‘liberal sprinkling of salt’. But in general the point still stands. You and I may be outliers!



The ubiquity, and the ingredients, of readily-available 'fast', 'processed' or 'pre-prepared' food though, is what has given many people a taste - a yearning, if you like - for a salt, sugar and fat content that used to be unheard of in 'traditional' good home, or restaurant, cooking, of almost whatever nation you care to look at. So the TV chef is pandering to what one might call the perverted, ill-taught or misled taste buds of a population that has become in large part addicted to the 'buzz', mouth-feel, and flavour of these frankly abnormal - and almost always very well-disguised - levels of salt, sugar and/or fat.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> This is true. Watch a TV chef ‘globbing in the Olive oil’ and ‘liberal sprinkling of salt’. But in general the point still stands. You and I may be outliers!



Quite possibly 

I was a bit naughty tonight, as I did stir fried chicken with onion, broccoli, green beans and ginger, plus egg fried rice. Last night I was considerably less naughty as I had steamed sea bass with tarragon & capers, tabbouleh, spinach and roasted baby san marzano tomatoes.

Swings and roundabouts. Nothing wrong with a little bit naughty every now and again, but too much naughty too often and I don't half feel *bleurgh*

TV cookery progs are more entertainment than anything else - if we were all to cook and eat like that, well, we'd be the expanding Russian frontier (sorry Babylon 5 quote*).  Having said that, they *are* a good source of tips and ideas, and I've picked up a fair few good kitchen hacks over the years.

* Season 2, episode 4 "A Distant Star" - which includes a very amusing plot thread about a "food plan"


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> The ubiquity, and the ingredients, of readily-available 'fast', 'processed' or 'pre-prepared' food though, is what has given many people a taste - a yearning, if you like - for a salt, sugar and fat content that used to be unheard of in 'traditional' good home, or restaurant, cooking, of almost whatever nation you care to look at. So the TV chef is pandering to what one might call the perverted, ill-taught or misled taste buds of a population that has become in large part addicted to the 'buzz', mouth-feel, and flavour of these frankly abnormal - and almost always very well-disguised - levels of salt, sugar and/or fat.



I actually find a lot of prepared foods too sweet or too salty.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> The ubiquity, and the ingredients, of readily-available 'fast', 'processed' or 'pre-prepared' food though, is what has given many people a taste - a yearning, if you like - for a salt, sugar and fat content that used to be unheard of in 'traditional' good home, or restaurant, cooking, of almost whatever nation you care to look at. So the TV chef is pandering to what one might call the perverted, ill-taught or misled taste buds of a population that has become in large part addicted to the 'buzz', mouth-feel, and flavour of these frankly abnormal - and almost always very well-disguised - levels of salt, sugar and/or fat.


I mostly disagree.
I travel weekly to different countries on business every week, and I can tell you that salt levels in particular are much higher in food outside the UK. In some, fat is much higher. I would say that UK processed food and restaurant food is among the lowest in salt content in Europe.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> But we all need some form of gratification. I have a farmer acquaintance who has just made £400k profit for the year, he doesn’t know what to spend it on. If you’re on benefits, anything that’s not essential will hit your budget significantly.



Are all poor people on benefits?

Do all people on benifits live on take-aways?


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## ebikeerwidnes (25 May 2021)

If i am making Cottage Pie or Spag bol I normally use mice from the butcher
previously I would get it from the supermarket - generally the most expensive version - 5% far rather than than the cheaper 20% fat

using the mince from the butcher there is not enough fat coming out of the meat for my wife to make gravy

using the best supermarket meat she has loads

same with sausages - loads of fat comes out of the premium supermarket version
butcher - naff all

and the stuff from the butcher tastes much better
and is cheaper

but all the advertising tends to point us to the supermarket - and CLEARLY they premium versions just MUST be better

pity we don;t have a greengrocer on the high street - I just feel lucky a butcher has survived


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## shep (25 May 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> If i am making Cottage Pie or Spag bol I normally use mice from the butcher


Interesting recipe!


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## battered (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> I mostly disagree.
> I travel weekly to different countries on business every week, and I can tell you that salt levels in particular are much higher in food outside the UK. In some, fat is much higher. I would say that UK processed food and restaurant food is among the lowest in salt content in Europe.


This is what I find too. UK manufactured food has had salt levels in particular lowered and lowered again, to the point where many of them are improved by a light sprinkle of salt. I'd be very surprised if significant numbers of home cooks use less salt than you find in most ready meals.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Are all poor people on benefits?


No of course not, it was just an extreme example. The wealthy can afford to pander to their every whim. A small indulgence for the poorest in society can be a big hit. That’s the point.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> If i am making Cottage Pie or Spag bol I normally use mice from the butcher



Ah, so *that's* where Madam Lexi has been moonlighting then...


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## ebikeerwidnes (25 May 2021)

shep said:


> Interesting recipe!


You use the meat you want and I'll use what I want!!!!!



OK - I meant Mince
I went to a good school - I am good at English
it was before computers - so we didn;t do typing
especially semi colons - ...................^^^^


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I actually find a lot of prepared foods too sweet or too salty.


Very definitely; so do I - but that I think is because I don't eat them 'normally'. If they were a regular part of my staple diet, I'm sure I'd've become accustomed to the levels of salt or sugar long ago, and would use considerably more salt and sugar in my home cooking. As it is I use minute quantities of salt - I honestly can't remember when I last bought salt - probably when I was doing a lot of dyeing with fibre-reactive dyes! - and frequently cut down on the supposedly-'required' amount of sugar when baking - it depends where the recipe comes from.


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## BoldonLad (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> No of course not, it was just an extreme example. The wealthy can afford to pander to their every whim. A small indulgence for the poorest in society can be a big hit. That’s the point.



Ok, an extreme and thus, unrealistic example.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> If i am making Cottage Pie or Spag bol I normally use mice from the butcher
> previously I would get it from the supermarket - generally the most expensive version - 5% far rather than than the cheaper 20% fat
> 
> using the mince from the butcher there is not enough fat coming out of the meat for my wife to make gravy
> ...


Now, just a thought....
Salt is very important in making meat products. In my experience, UK manufacturers of sausages and bacon are right at the lower end of the functionality range which means poor water and fat binding. Butchers tend to have higher salt contents and more stable products...less water and fat seepage.
It’s a perfect case in point where a certain level of salt is required to maje the product work properly. Cheese is another good example, especially blue cheese where salt level is crirltical in ensuringbthe correct microbial and fungal microflora. You can’t make low salt Stilton.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Now, just a thought....
> Salt is very important in making meat products. In my experience, UK manufacturers of sausages and bacon are right at the lower end of the functionality range which means poor water and fat binding. Butchers tend to have higher salt contents and more stable products...less water and fat seepage.
> It’s a perfect case in point where a certain level of salt is required to maje the product work properly. Cheese is another good example, especially blue cheese where salt level is crirltical in ensuringbthe correct microbial and fungal microflora. You can’t make low salt Stilton.



Low salt bread is also challenging to make because the salt acts as a "handbrake" on the yeast. 2% salt is where I'm at when baking.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Ok, an extreme and thus, unrealistic example.


No not really. It’s realistic enough. I’m not sure what you’re digging at here?
People on benefits are likely poor. Not all people that are poor are on benefits. I chose one as an example.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Very definitely; so do I - but that I think is because I don't eat them 'normally'. If they were a regular part of my staple diet, I'm sure I'd've become accustomed to the levels of salt or sugar long ago, and would use considerably more salt and sugar in my home cooking. As it is I use minute quantities of salt - I honestly can't remember when I last bought salt - probably when I was doing a lot of dyeing with fibre-reactive dyes! - and frequently cut down on the supposedly-'required' amount of sugar when baking - it depends where the recipe comes from.



Most of the salt I buy goes into bread.

I am a keen yellow sticker-er, but much prefer to buy fresh ingredients. Had some brilliant scores on Saturday night in terms of meat, fish and fresh fruit & veg.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Low salt bread is also challenging to make because the salt acts as a "handbrake" on the yeast. 2% salt is where I'm at when baking.


Salt also impacts the strength and elasticity of the gluten as well which impacts baking performance.
As you may be able to see, some ingredients have vital (no pun) roles in certain food products, so low salt versions are not a simple act of reducing salt, which means other ingredient ‘additives’ might be required.
A lot of gluten-free products rely on Xanthan gum to replace the role of gluten, but Xanthan would be frowned upon in other products as an adulterant....


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Salt also impacts the strength and elasticity of the gluten as well which impacts baking performance.
> As you may be able to see, some ingredients have vital (no pun) roles in certain food products, so low salt versions are not a simple act of reducing salt, which means other ingredient ‘additives’ might be required.
> A lot of gluten-free products rely on Xanthan gum to replace the role of gluten, but Xanthan would be frowned upon in other products....



Well, it's been a good while since I've baked a frisbee, so I must be doing something right 

Same is true of the role of salt in curing meat and fish. If you don't use enough, the product spoils.


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## Fab Foodie (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Well, it's been a good while since I've baked a frisbee, so I must be doing something right
> 
> Same is true of the role of salt in curing meat and fish. If you don't use enough, the product spoils.


Correct, if you don’t use enough sugar or acid when making Jam it doesn’t set or goes mouldy quickly.
Food is complex chemistry with a lot of emotional baggage. 
It’s much misunderstood....

Much of my work revolves around reducing sugar, salt, additives and allergens from very well known global products but without reducing the pleasureable attributes.


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> I mostly disagree.
> I travel weekly to different countries on business every week, and I can tell you that salt levels in particular are much higher in food outside the UK. In some, fat is much higher. I would say that UK processed food and restaurant food is among the lowest in salt content in Europe.



Oh, I don't think the food in all countries has the same levels of salt and sugar at all; I've lived on three continents and in more than a dozen countries and everywhere is different. But I contend that processed/ fast/junk food in X country will _generally_ be of a higher fat, salt and sugar content than traditional, good-quality home cooked food and 'proper' (not fast-food/takeaway type) restaurant food in X country (individual ingredients, such as salt cod, or jaggery, not withstanding, of course!). 
I also agree that the UK processed food industry is _now _doing a pretty decent job in reducing the sodium content of food - but it didn't use to, and we're still battling through a large proportion of the population who have taste buds which demand/prefer/are accustomed to a high salt content, as well as a high sugar content in many items - even quite unexpected ones - and a specific type of 'mouth-feel' - the accustomisation due largely to the high fat/salt/sugar content of the foods they _used _to eat (and often still do, from takeaway and suchlike, rather than from supermarkets). In other words, much of the current harm results from what was accepted practice in the past.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Correct, if you don’t use enough sugar or acid when making Jam it doesn’t set or goes mouldy quickly.
> Food is complex chemistry with a lot of emotional baggage.
> It’s much misunderstood....
> 
> Much of my work revolves around reducing sugar, salt, additives and allergens from very well known global products but without reducing the pleasureable attributes.



Well, I do make my own jams, marmalades and chutneys  - usually for jams & marmalades, that's 1 part sugar to 1 part fruit. I think that's about the lowest you can go without encountering problems. I seal while still very hot, and stuff keeps for years in a cool dark place.

I notice that commercially made preserves have considerably more sugar in. Guess there's a tipping point between shelf life, profit and palatibility.


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Most of the salt I buy goes into bread.
> 
> I am a keen yellow sticker-er, but much prefer to buy fresh ingredients. Had some brilliant scores on Saturday night in terms of meat, fish and fresh fruit & veg.



I used to love making bread, but I regularly make my own yoghurt, and sometimes cheese, so I've stopped - and stopped wine-making, too - as I had too much cross-contamination happening since I moved here with a much smaller kitchen and less space in general. I can buy decent bread fairly locally, but there's nothing like my own yoghurt and soft cheeses - and they're no good if they're contaminated with bread and wine yeasts!


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I used to love making bread, but I regularly make my own yoghurt, and sometimes cheese, so I've stopped - and stopped wine-making, too - as I had too much cross-contamination happening since I moved here with a much smaller kitchen and less space in general. I can buy decent bread fairly locally, but there's nothing like my own yoghurt and soft cheeses - and they're no good if they're contaminated with bread and wine yeasts!



Although historically, bread was raised with beer barm until bakers' yeast came along.  Breweries and bakeries were usually next door to each other.

Maybe if you bring the cheese, I'll bring the bread and the chutney


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Although historically, bread was raised with beer barm until bakers' yeast came along.  Breweries and bakeries were usually next door to each other.
> 
> Maybe if you bring the cheese, I'll bring the bread and the chutney



Ah but that's why I gave up making bread - the bread and the booze (wine in my case) were happy together - or at least I didn't have problems - but the bread and booze yeasts were contaminating the dairy stuff. Not nice! Mainly, I have to confess, due to my somewhat slap-dash housekeeping - but keeping my dairy equipment free from significant yeast contamination in a large and spacious kitchen was a LOT easier than doing the same in my 'new' (tiny, cramped) kitchen. So I decontaminated the entire room and its contents with dairy disinfectant and gave away my bread-making and brewing equipment.
I seem to be able to pickle-ferment veggies alongside my dairy stuff without a cross-contamination issue, but that's mainly a lactic-acid type of fermentation, not a yeast process as is both bread and booze.


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Oops what happened? Sorry!


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## winjim (25 May 2021)

I've just been doing a bit of maths. Someone upthread was considering the comparison between a Domino's pizza and an Italian 'artisan' pizza. Now, every Saturday night at our house is pizza night. All homemade from scratch, dough in the breadmaker, sauce in the pressure cooker, kids can choose their own toppings, family film, bottle of wine, you get the idea. Not artisan but maybe not far off, so I thought I'd do a comparison.

My usual toppings are: chargrilled onions and peppers, olives, capers, ham, sultanas, mozarella. I added everything up and that gives me 19.3g fat and 2.24g salt. Most of the fat is from olive oil so a good amount will be unsaturated I think. An Italian artisan might drizzle a little more on top as well. A comparable pizza from Domino's might be something like the Veggie Supreme (ham notwithstanding). A small, 9.5", with an Italian style base gives you 22.4g fat with 3.29g salt. So not far off in absolute terms although that's a bit deceptive because it actually a 47% increase in salt, so a fair amount.

But. But but but. If I have a Domino's I don't have a veggie supreme. I'm not trying to recreate an artisanal Italian wood fired pizza. American and Italian pizzas are different dishes. If I have a Domino's, I'm having a Pepperoni Passion on a classic base. That's a proper dirty takeaway pizza. Dirty and fatty and salty and delicious and a million miles away from either an Italian artisan or a homemade pizza with the kids. A small Pepperoni Passion on a classic base gets you a whopping 58.5g fat and a full 6.57g salt. Given that RDA for fat is 44-77g, assuming a 2000kcal/day intake, and RDA for salt is 6g, that's a pretty heavy going meal. So it depends on what you order but if I was having American rather than Italian pizza I would definitely be tempted towards the high fat, high salt option. And that's without even considering things like stuffed crust and that little pot of garlic mayo they give you...



Note: I have gone for 'small' here from Domino's as that's probably comparable to the size of pizza I make at home which is about 11" but a bit thinner. That does give you the highest values from their nutrition table. Their portion sizes are a bit weird depending on what size you order but I reckon I could manage an entire small pizza over the course of a film.


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## Reynard (25 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Ah but that's why I gave up making bread - the bread and the booze (wine in my case) were happy together - or at least I didn't have problems - but the bread and booze yeasts were contaminating the dairy stuff. Not nice! Mainly, I have to confess, due to my somewhat slap-dash housekeeping - but keeping my dairy equipment free from significant yeast contamination in a large and spacious kitchen was a LOT easier than doing the same in my 'new' (tiny, cramped) kitchen. So I decontaminated the entire room and its contents with dairy disinfectant and gave away my bread-making and brewing equipment.
> I seem to be able to pickle-ferment veggies alongside my dairy stuff without a cross-contamination issue, but that's mainly a lactic-acid type of fermentation, not a yeast process as is both bread and booze.



I'm teetotal, and the only cheese I make is cream / cottage cheese if I've got milk about to go t*ts up. 

But I only have a galley kitchen, so I know where you're coming from in terms of lack-of-space.

I couldn't give up baking bread.


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## newfhouse (25 May 2021)

winjim said:


> For example, a fetus which is small for gestational age may initiate a starvation response meaning that after birth and for the rest of their life, they have a greater propensity to eat as much as they can and store the energy as fat.


Damn, I thought I had a propensity for tubbiness because I was an eleven pound baby. Thanks for puncturing that balloon.


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## winjim (25 May 2021)

newfhouse said:


> Damn, I thought I had a propensity for tubbiness because I was an eleven pound baby. Thanks for puncturing that balloon.


Ha. I think it might work that way round as well...


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## KnittyNorah (25 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I'm teetotal, and the only cheese I make is cream / cottage cheese if I've got milk about to go t*ts up.
> 
> But I only have a galley kitchen, so I know where you're coming from in terms of lack-of-space.
> 
> I couldn't give up baking bread.


And I couldn't give up on my yoghurt and cheese! TBH, it was an easy decision to make - the purchased stuff bears no significant likeness to the stuff I make.


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> And I couldn't give up on my yoghurt and cheese! TBH, it was an easy decision to make - the purchased stuff bears no significant likeness to the stuff I make.



As is often the case when comparing home made to shop bought.  The difference lies in making it to your own tastes rather than a) to a particular price point and b) to suit the tastes of Mr & Mrs Average.


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## battered (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Although historically, bread was raised with beer barm until bakers' yeast came along.  Breweries and bakeries were usually next door to each other.
> 
> Maybe if you bring the cheese, I'll bring the bread and the chutney


Beer yeast and bread yeast are very close if not identical. Both are Saccharomyces cerevisae, possibly different varieties. As you say the use of barm, a brewing waste product, was adopted because it worked, and it was free. Quicker than sourdough too.


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## KnittyNorah (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> As is often the case when comparing home made to shop bought.  The difference lies in making it to your own tastes rather than a) to a particular price point and b) to suit the tastes of Mr & Mrs Average.


Indeed - and shop-bought yoghurt, in particular the heavily sweetened, flavoured and thickened stuff, is in truth a bland 'dairy-style dessert' rather than a versatile fermented milk product. A bit like a comparison between home-made wholegrain and seed-full bread, and ready-sliced Chorleywood-processed yeast-risen baked white wheatflour goods …


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

Drat... Now I'm hungry!!! 

Plain yoghurt makes for good Naan bread, btw...


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## KnittyNorah (26 May 2021)

battered said:


> Beer yeast and bread yeast are very close if not identical. Both are Saccharomyces cerevisae, possibly different varieties. As you say the use of barm, a brewing waste product, was adopted because it worked, and it was free. Quicker than sourdough too.



_Definitely_ different strains nowadays - hundreds of them; same species of course - well at least for bread, most wines and English-style ales and stouts. Most industrial brewers of lager started using a bottom-fermenting cool-temperature yeast - Saccharomyces pastorianus - in the 19thC, which has very recently been confirmed to be an interesting inter-species hybrid. There's another interspecies hybrid - S. bayanus - which is often used in the production of high-alcohol % wines due to its tolerance levels. 
Given that yeast fermentation produces CO2 (for the rise in bread), alcohol (for wine, beer, cider etc) and a range of different volatile chemicals - esters and phenols - offering different flavours and aromas from sweet to savoury and nice to nasty, it didn't take long for selection and 'breeding pure' to start taking place. Even though early bakers and brewers wouldn't've had microbial understanding of yeast cultures, they were able to maintain locally interesting, useful and/or preferred cultures by reusing doughs, starters and dregs for later batches, so they've been selected for their 'best performance' in the production of what is needed for a very long time.


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## FrankCrank (26 May 2021)

Wow, this thread sure is galloping along. Here in the tropics it's hard to work up an honest sweat - just moving around can have you dripping in no time. For about the past year I've been doing a morning walk for an hour or so. This has greatly reduced my pot belly - seems to burn more calories than say an hours bike ride. I do about 2 hours cycling per day also, but being a flat area it's harder to burn calories. 
As to salt, I never add any to stuff I cook, but often have a craving for crisps or some such savory things, and guess it's due to the amount of salt sweated out and my body telling me to take in more - at least that's my excuse. Now, if only I could find a reason for why I eat lots of chocolate


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## KnittyNorah (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Drat... Now I'm hungry!!!
> 
> Plain yoghurt makes for good Naan bread, btw...



I've just been downstairs, spread a thick layer of sharp home-made herby, slightly chilli-y, yoghurt cheese on a slice of Pumpernickel, and eaten it - yum!


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## Fab Foodie (26 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I just bought some new 105 shifters. I know I know, down tube levers would be so much healthier. I just can't stop myself.
> 
> And some snazzy handlebar tape as topping


Clearly the education, medical and social care systems are letting you down. The government must act to prevent more self harm....


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## Scaleyback (26 May 2021)

winjim said:


> It's important to note, amidst all this talk of choices, that some people are more 'hard wired' than others. There are genetic and epigenetic factors at work. For example, a fetus which is small for gestational age may initiate a starvation response meaning that after birth and for the rest of their life, they have a greater propensity to eat as much as they can and store the energy as fat. This has an effect on not only their weight but also morbidities such as CV disease, diabetes etc.
> 
> And... here's the interesting bit, the starvation response is achieved by DNA methylation _in utero_, silencing various genes and activating others. This methylation is itself heritable, meaning that the starvation response is passed down through the generations. So if your grandmother had a small baby, it is possible that you and your children will have that epigenetic alteration and be prone to overeating and obesity.
> Yes I have just taken a nutrition exam and yes I think I did alright in it, thanks for asking.



Blimey ! this is not going to help the obesity crisis is it ? nutritional advisor to obese patient " you are likely suffering from a starvation response which was achieved by DNA methylation in utero" Obese patient to nutritional advosor "There you go, I told everyone I 'eat like a bird' but I still put on weight, I may as well give up the diet, this is all my granny's fault. " 

What we need to discover now is why this "starvation response" has lain largely dormant until the 21st century ?  in 1960 just 1% of men and 2% of women were obese, in 2021 in the UK 28% of people are obese and a further 36% are overweight. Are we really expected to believe one of the reasons we are now suffering an obesity crisis is linked to the famines of the middle ages ?


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## tyred (26 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> Blimey ! this is not going to help the obesity crisis is it ? nutritional advisor to obese patient " you are likely suffering from a starvation response which was achieved by DNA methylation in utero" Obese patient to nutritional advosor "There you go, I told everyone I 'eat like a bird' but I still put on weight, I may as well give up the diet, this is all my granny's fault. "
> 
> What we need to discover now is why this "starvation response" has lain largely dormant until the 21st century ?  in 1960 just 1% of men and 2% of women were obese, in 2021 in the UK 28% of people are obese and a further 36% are overweight. Are we really expected to believe one of the reasons we are now suffering an obesity crisis is linked to the famines of the middle ages ?


Could it be something to do with the fact that food of all types but especially the high calorie type is more abundant and available more cheaply (to those of us in the affluent West) than ever before?

One hundred years ago the option of over-eating wasn't available to ordinary people in the way it is today and they couldn't pop into Tesco's for a six pack of Tennent's and a multipack of cheese and onion crisps and get change from a tenner.


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## tyred (26 May 2021)

Winston Churchill and Oliver Hardy are just two very well known examples that prove that obesity was an issue prior to 1960 for the more privileged people in society.


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## matticus (26 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> one of the reasons we are now suffering an obesity crisis is linked to the famines of the middle ages


It's not as simple as that.


(I hope it was my turn? Apologies if I've elbowed someone else aside ... )


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## winjim (26 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> Blimey ! this is not going to help the obesity crisis is it ? nutritional advisor to obese patient " you are likely suffering from a starvation response which was achieved by DNA methylation in utero" Obese patient to nutritional advosor "There you go, I told everyone I 'eat like a bird' but I still put on weight, I may as well give up the diet, this is all my granny's fault. "
> 
> What we need to discover now is why this "starvation response" has lain largely dormant until the 21st century ?  in 1960 just 1% of men and 2% of women were obese, in 2021 in the UK 28% of people are obese and a further 36% are overweight. Are we really expected to believe one of the reasons we are now suffering an obesity crisis is linked to the famines of the middle ages ?


Yes, because that one example of epigenetics I used obviously represents the sum total of our knowledge and understanding of diet, nutrition and obesity.


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## battered (26 May 2021)

winjim said:


> Yes, because that one example of epigenetics I used obviously represents the sum total of our knowledge and understanding of diet, nutrition and obesity.


No, you've missed the point that it's all down to obese people being fat, lazy bastards who should be culled. They should bring back national service too, and corporal punishment. That would sort them out, look at the statistics. 1960 - 1% fat people, National Service still in place. 2020 - no nashers any more, 30% of people are fat. Stanstereason, dunnit?
Honestly, some people, just haven't got a clue.


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## Scaleyback (26 May 2021)

tyred said:


> Winston Churchill and Oliver Hardy are just two very well known examples that prove that obesity was an issue prior to 1960 for the more privileged people in society.


 Of course there will always be exceptions. 
Another factor fuelling obesity here in the UK is apparently poverty ? poorer people cannot afford 'quality food' Poorer quality food has more of 'what makes you fat' Hmm ? in many countries of the world (Africa ?) poverty is 'fuelling' malnutrition and death. In my opinion it is far more likely to be feckless parents feeding their kids on chips, crisps and sugary drinks. Uneducated, lazy people ignoring all the good nutrition advice available and spending the day on the sofa with their feet up, eating crisps and watching Jeremy Kyle.


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## BoldonLad (26 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> Of course there will always be exceptions.
> Another factor fuelling obesity here in the UK is apparently poverty ? poorer people cannot afford 'quality food' Poorer quality food has more of 'what makes you fat' Hmm ? in many countries of the world (Africa ?) poverty is 'fuelling' malnutrition and death. In my opinion it is far more likely to be feckless parents feeding their kids on chips, crisps and sugary drinks. Uneducated, lazy people ignoring all the good nutrition advice available and spending the day on the sofa with their feet up, eating crisps and watching Jeremy Kyle.



Gloves off time


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## Kingfisher101 (26 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> Of course there will always be exceptions.
> Another factor fuelling obesity here in the UK is apparently poverty ? poorer people cannot afford 'quality food' Poorer quality food has more of 'what makes you fat' Hmm ? in many countries of the world (Africa ?) poverty is 'fuelling' malnutrition and death. In my opinion it is far more likely to be feckless parents feeding their kids on chips, crisps and sugary drinks. Uneducated, lazy people ignoring all the good nutrition advice available and spending the day on the sofa with their feet up, eating crisps and watching Jeremy Kyle.


Jeremy Kyle isnt even on the T.V anymore, you need to keep up. Comparing the situation in the U.K to Africa is not comparable really. Obviously poverty in the U.K is very different to poverty in Africa. Its not just people with a lower education that have obesity its across the board.. Perhaps look away from the Daily Mail and educate yourself.


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## Fab Foodie (26 May 2021)

tyred said:


> Could it be something to do with the fact that food of all types but especially the high calorie type is more abundant and available more cheaply (to those of us in the affluent West) than ever before?
> 
> One hundred years ago the option of over-eating wasn't available to ordinary people in the way it is today and they couldn't pop into Tesco's for a six pack of Tennent's and a multipack of cheese and onion crisps and get change from a tenner.


Yes. It’s certainly a factor.


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I've just been downstairs, spread a thick layer of sharp home-made herby, slightly chilli-y, yoghurt cheese on a slice of Pumpernickel, and eaten it - yum!



Aaaargh!!!

You can't trebuchet some over? That would go lovely with my Jewish-style rye bread and home made gravlax


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

tyred said:


> Could it be something to do with the fact that food of all types but especially the high calorie type is more abundant and available more cheaply (to those of us in the affluent West) than ever before?
> 
> One hundred years ago the option of over-eating wasn't available to ordinary people in the way it is today and they couldn't pop into Tesco's for a six pack of Tennent's and a multipack of cheese and onion crisps and get change from a tenner.



That, and the fact that food has become cheaper than it used to be. OK, cheaper is maybe not the right way of saying it, but it takes up a smaller proportion of income than it used to.

I recently binge-watched the first series of "Back in Time for Dinner" in the course of one evening, and when you watch it almost on fast forward like that, it really opens your eyes as to how much food and food shopping has changed in the last six decades. We probably don't notice it so much, because the change has been gradual, but my word, like that, it doesn't half stand out.

Things that once were a treat are now the mundane, cheap and easily available.


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## The Crofted Crest (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> how much food and food shopping has changed in the last six decades



When the first supermarket opened in the town where I grew up, we went on a school trip to look at it. It was revolutionary. 
This was the future! This was where we would buy our jetpacks!


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## simongt (26 May 2021)

Try telling a silverback gorilla that only eating veg is just for wimps - !


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## Scaleyback (26 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Gloves off time



I guess ? but I'm not 'sitting on the fence' 
However posters that resort to personal insults are usually lacking in vocabulary skills.


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## tyred (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> That, and the fact that food has become cheaper than it used to be. OK, cheaper is maybe not the right way of saying it, but it takes up a smaller proportion of income than it used to.



Amongst other things it's a function of more mechanisation and more intensive farming techniques making food production more efficient. It's good in many ways as food is cheaper but it's not good for rural communities or the natural environment. The sort of small family farms that I grew up on can no longer be economically viable in reality. A farmer would have got paid more for producing a ton of potatoes in 1980 than (s)he would today so there is little point in planting a few acres like my Dad would have done. You need to be on a bigger scale than that.



Reynard said:


> I recently binge-watched the first series of "Back in Time for Dinner" in the course of one evening, and when you watch it almost on fast forward like that, it really opens your eyes as to how much food and food shopping has changed in the last six decades. We probably don't notice it so much, because the change has been gradual, but my word, like that, it doesn't half stand out.



I grew up in a rural area in the 1980s and the bulk of our groceries would have come from a shop a few miles away (think Arkwright in Open All Hours) and he went around all the rural houses in bay-window VW Type II van while his wife ran the physical shop, probably visiting maybe eight or ten houses each day with groceries and also coal, gas cylinders, possibly even bags of cattle feed and anything else someone might have ordered. Today, I see people leaving supermarkets with enough shopping to have almost fill a Type II VW and that is just for one family! Family sizes have generally got smaller, what are people doing with all this stuff?



Reynard said:


> Things that once were a treat are now the mundane, cheap and easily available.



I remember a Terry's Chocolate Orange being a real treat, once or twice a year at Christmas and Birthday and they were quite expensive. Even on a relatively modest wage, I could afford to eat two or three a day at today's prices if I wanted to.


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## BoldonLad (26 May 2021)

tyred said:


> .......
> I grew up in a rural area in the 1980s and the bulk of our groceries would have come from a shop a few miles away (think Arkwright in Open All Hours) and he went around all the rural houses in bay-window VW Type II van while his wife ran the physical shop, probably visiting maybe eight or ten houses each day with groceries and also coal, gas cylinders, possibly even bags of cattle feed and anything else someone might have ordered. Today,* I see people leaving supermarkets with enough shopping to have almost fill a Type II VW and that is just for one family! Family sizes have generally got smaller, what are people doing with all this stuff?*
> ....



If they are anything like my daughter No 3, throwing it away, when the Best Before date is reached, and, it has not been eaten. 

I despair


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## tyred (26 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> If they are anything like my daughter No 3, throwing it away, when the Best Before date is reached, and, it has not been eaten.
> 
> I despair


Didn't happen back in the day. My local version of Arkwright scraped the best before dates off with a penny if they were getting too close!


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

tyred said:


> Amongst other things it's a function of more mechanisation and more intensive farming techniques making food production more efficient. It's good in many ways as food is cheaper but it's not good for rural communities or the natural environment. The sort of small family farms that I grew up on can no longer be economically viable in reality. A farmer would have got paid more for producing a ton of potatoes in 1980 than (s)he would today so there is little point in planting a few acres like my Dad would have done. You need to be on a bigger scale than that.
> 
> I grew up in a rural area in the 1980s and the bulk of our groceries would have come from a shop a few miles away (think Arkwright in Open All Hours) and he went around all the rural houses in bay-window VW Type II van while his wife ran the physical shop, probably visiting maybe eight or ten houses each day with groceries and also coal, gas cylinders, possibly even bags of cattle feed and anything else someone might have ordered. Today, I see people leaving supermarkets with enough shopping to have almost fill a Type II VW and that is just for one family! Family sizes have generally got smaller, what are people doing with all this stuff?
> 
> I remember a Terry's Chocolate Orange being a real treat, once or twice a year at Christmas and Birthday and they were quite expensive. Even on a relatively modest wage, I could afford to eat two or three a day at today's prices if I wanted to.



Can't disagree with any of that. This is very definitely farming country out here - mostly arable and some market gardening. Everyone now concentrates on the staples of wheat, sugar beet, potatoes and oil seed rape. There's a lot less other crops being grown, like onions, carrots and celery - and the fens used to be very famous for their celery.

Certainly, something like a chicken used to be a Sunday / special occasion thing rather than an everyday meat. With intensive rearing, it makes it a lot cheaper - economies of scale and all that. There's a place up the road that rears ducks - they pump out I think it's 20,000 birds every eight weeks from just a small handful of sheds.

Likewise here. I'm London born & bred, but moved out here more years ago than I can care to admit. Well, mid 80s. The butcher's van used to come round twice a week, the milkie three times a week (he did bread, fruit juices and cheese as well) and a green grocer had a van too. A fish van used to turn up in the village on a Tuesday, and the pub sold eggs from a local supplier. Ely had a Co-op and a Tesco and that was it, but there was a good market twice a week. Now there's a Waitrose, a Sainsbury's, Iceland, Aldi and a much bigger Tesco.

I'm guilty of buying a lot of groceries (two peeps here chez Casa Reynard), but I typically only go shopping once a fortnight or once every three weeks.


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> If they are anything like my daughter No 3, throwing it away, when the Best Before date is reached, and, it has not been eaten.
> 
> I despair



Well, I'm a keen yellow stickerer, so I'm buying a lot of my food at the point most people are throwing it away. I see myself as undertaking a very valuable public service in preventing food waste. 

As long as stuff is stored and cooked correctly, (and hasn't walked out of the fridge and developed language skills) there's nothing wrong with any of it. I went on Saturday night, and my haul included:

A side of salmon, a 2kg pork belly joint, sea bass, tuna, a cooked chicken, eggs, beetroot, beans, broccoli, asparagus, carrots, lettuce, salad onions, satsumas, blueberries, avocadoes, croissants and, yes, I do have to admit, a chocolate cake.


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## Julia9054 (26 May 2021)

tyred said:


> what are people doing with all this stuff?


Putting it in the freezer? 
Most families shop once a week or once a fortnight. Back in “the day” people had small kitchens/ pantries, small fridges, no freezer and shopped every day or every couple of days.


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Putting it in the freezer?
> Most families shop once a week or once a fortnight. Back in “the day” people had small kitchens/ pantries, small fridges, no freezer and shopped every day or every couple of days.



Yes and no, I reckon.

If people got it right, there wouldn't be such an issue with domestic food waste. But there is, which does mean that people *are* buying too much. Sure, back in the day, people had less food storage, but food was proportionately more expensive, so you didn't buy above and beyond what you actually need.

I've actually overheard people in the supermarket putting stuff in their trolley (usually stickered stuff, but not always) and saying, oh, I won't be able to get this all in the freezer, but it's so cheap that I don't care if some of it ends up being thrown away.


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## BoldonLad (26 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Well, I'm a keen yellow stickerer, so I'm buying a lot of my food at the point most people are throwing it away. *I see myself as undertaking a very valuable public service in preventing food waste*.
> 
> As long as stuff is stored and cooked correctly, (and hasn't walked out of the fridge and developed language skills) there's nothing wrong with any of it. I went on Saturday night, and my haul included:
> 
> A side of salmon, a 2kg pork belly joint, sea bass, tuna, a cooked chicken, eggs, beetroot, beans, broccoli, asparagus, carrots, lettuce, salad onions, satsumas, blueberries, avocadoes, croissants and, yes, I do have to admit, a chocolate cake.



I agree, well done you


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## Kingfisher101 (26 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Putting it in the freezer?
> Most families shop once a week or once a fortnight. Back in “the day” people had small kitchens/ pantries, small fridges, no freezer and shopped every day or every couple of days.


A lot of people still shop everyday like some elderly people etc. I don't know anyone who shops one a fortnight!. Even the people that go weekly for the main shop still go everyday as well for odd bits. A lot of people also wont eat frozen food because they prefer fresh and cooked on the day.


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## BoldonLad (26 May 2021)

Kingfisher101 said:


> A lot of people still shop everyday like some elderly people etc. I don't know anyone who shops one a fortnight!. Even the people that go weekly for the main shop still go everyday as well for odd bits. A lot of people also wont eat frozen food because they prefer fresh and cooked on the day.



We shop fortnightly for main shop. Weekly for "fresh" stuff. Would not dream of going every day, we have much more interesting things to do.

Perhaps we don't qualify as elderly, at only 73/74?


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## KnittyNorah (26 May 2021)

Kingfisher101 said:


> A lot of people still shop everyday like some elderly people etc. I don't know anyone who shops one a fortnight!. Even the people that go weekly for the main shop still go everyday as well for odd bits. A lot of people also wont eat frozen food because they prefer fresh and cooked on the day.



Well I'm very glad I'm still young despite being in my mid 70s! Who on earth has the time, when they are retired and busy with all the interesting things that retirement brings time and opportunity for, to shop daily? Who'd _want_ to? Unless of course they are very very lonely but shopping daily is just a plaster on the wound, not a solution. 
I shop in a supermarket - varying between Aldi/Lidl and Booths (Waitrose of the North, but better), for different items - and at the 'proper' market, once every couple of weeks. Last year I was shopping once a month or less often. I also get a delivery from a local greengrocer, usually in the week that I don't go shopping. 
Food that's fresh and cooked on the day doesn't have to be shopped for on the day - of course a few things need to be used within a day or two after purchase but otherwise you simply buy things that keep longer. Stuff keeps just as well and sometimes better at home, than it does in the shop or on the market stall.


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## battered (26 May 2021)

What do people do with all this stuff? They eat it, that's why there's an obesity crisis. It's appealing, it's cheap, so till your boots. People want cheap food, that's what the supermarket ads keep showing.

I've been on a calorie reduction, weight loss and fitness drive since January. I've noticed I'm spending less. I'm not trying to, I can afford to buy whatever food I want, but I'm aware that with reduced portion sizes I am consuming and therefore buying less food. Yeah, I know, who knew, etc.


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## battered (26 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> Of course there will always be exceptions.
> Another factor fuelling obesity here in the UK is apparently poverty ? poorer people cannot afford 'quality food' Poorer quality food has more of 'what makes you fat' Hmm ? in many countries of the world (Africa ?) poverty is 'fuelling' malnutrition and death. In my opinion it is far more likely to be feckless parents feeding their kids on chips, crisps and sugary drinks. Uneducated, lazy people ignoring all the good nutrition advice available and spending the day on the sofa with their feet up, eating crisps and watching Jeremy Kyle.


So according to you the 30% of the population and the similar numbers who are overweight are "likely to be feckless parents...lazy...spending the day on the sofa"? That's a lot of people on the sofa all day. All of them?


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> We shop fortnightly for main shop. Weekly for "fresh" stuff. Would not dream of going every day, we have much more interesting things to do.
> 
> Perhaps we don't qualify as elderly, at only 73/74?



Yup, same here... I couldn't be doing with going every day. I'd never get anything else done! (There are some other yellow sticker regulars who do go every day, but that's another story...) 

Mind, I *do* live out in the boonies, so a trip to the supermarket isn't as straightforward as it is for someone living in town. Ergo it makes sense to get a fortnight's or so worth of groceries in. It's worth it just in terms of time and fuel alone. If I do need just a couple of items, there's a Co-op in the next village along and a chap locally who sells organic veg and potatoes - both easily do-able by bicycle. The Co-op even has proper bike racks!

P.S. At only 46, I'm a relative spring chicken!


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## Reynard (26 May 2021)

battered said:


> What do people do with all this stuff? They eat it, that's why there's an obesity crisis. It's appealing, it's cheap, so till your boots. People want cheap food, that's what the supermarket ads keep showing.



A fair bit of it ends up in the bin. I ran across something on the radio the other day that the average household in the UK throws out about 75kg of food - that's the equivalent in weight of three sacks of potatoes.

Although cheap doesn't necessarily mean bad. There are really good cheap ingredients out there, including things like eggs, dairy, pulses (canned & dried),pasta, potatoes, vegetables, fruit (especially the "wonky" stuff), frozen and canned fish, some cuts of meat (although you do need to know where the value is). Only thing is, you actually have to prepare it and cook it, rather than just shoving it in the oven or in the popitty ping.


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## tyred (26 May 2021)

I do go to the shop pretty regular. I live within walking distance, I usually go out for a walk after work to clear my head, if I need anything I just call in for it as it's not as busy as it might be in a larger town. I can look at the yellow stickers whilst I there! Occasionally if I do need more or something heavy I might take the bike with panniers. If I was to only shop once a fortnight it would be a lot to carry. I don't want to drive to the shops.

I also wonder if what makes someone's trolley of groceries seem bigger than it used to is the fact that so many things come with outrageous amounts of packaging these days. My supermarket own brand "deluxe" sausages now come and a silly plastic box thing which could hold 2lb of sausages so I've stopped buying them as I object to the waste of plastic but such things are more bulky.


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## Low Gear Guy (26 May 2021)

Maybe people are buying more groceries because they can. If you have to carry all your groceries home you don't overload the basket. Now we have home deliveries non-drivers can also enjoy the benefits of a large shopping trolley.


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## lazybloke (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> I'm not convinced about this. I don't think, and I have seen no evidence that suggests, that 100g of minced beef turned into a McDo is any easier for my body to digest than 100g of minced beef that I have turned into, say, spag bol. It may be easier to eat, it may be more appetising (hard to imagine, my spag bol is fantastic) but once down your throat your body can't tell whether the minced beef particles came in as a burger or as spag bol.
> 
> Not convinced. (a) no evidence, (b) no evidence.


Naming two minced beef recipes doesn't really say anything about processed food. 

Try comparing refined white flour with a wholegrain equivalent, or juice/smoothie versus whole fruit.
The body can certainly tell the difference; the evidence is available in blood glucose measurements.

Although i think sedentary lifestyles (at work, home and play) are the biggest single factor causing the current obesity crisis.


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## sheddy (27 May 2021)

Just discovered The Food Chain series on the BBC World Service 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p028z2z0


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## battered (27 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Naming two minced beef recipes doesn't really say anything about processed food.
> 
> Try comparing refined white flour with a wholegrain equivalent, or juice/smoothie versus whole fruit.
> The body can certainly tell the difference; the evidence is available in blood glucose measurements.
> ...


You aren't comparing like with like. Yes, a smoothie or juice is not the same as fruit. A beef joint is not a burger. White flour is not wholegrain. This we know. But minced beef is minced beef, and the body can't tell the difference between my spag bol and one that came out of a factory to the same recipe. How can it? The unit operations, to use manufacturers ' speak, are identical, so you get the same result.


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## KnittyNorah (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> You aren't comparing like with like. Yes, a smoothie or juice is not the same as fruit. A beef joint is not a burger. White flour is not wholegrain. This we know. But minced beef is minced beef, and the body can't tell the difference between my spag bol and one that came out of a factory to the same recipe. How can it? The unit operations, to use manufacturers ' speak, are identical, so you get the same result.



But - if we take, for example, a beef lasagne, a home cook is unlikely to use horsemeat as the 'beef' ingredient - and a home cook is highly unlikely to use the same recipe in their spag bol as does the factory version. The factory version almost inevitably has a lot more ingredients - and the cheaper the item, the more ingredients, it seems. You can see the list of ingredients of such dishes on supermarket websites; as an example, I'd use none of the added wheys and caseins, I wouldn't be using both yeast extract AND salt, no added wheat gluten (only that which is already in the flour used to thicken a sauce although I tend to use arrowroot. potato flour or cornflour for that, _if _it's needed), _no palm oil. _ I'd be using a low-fat mince and/or dry frying and removing excess fat. And yes, the body _can '_tell the difference' between a high-fat mince and a low-fat one in its contribution to the whole. 
In addition, the entire level and type of activity around a home-cooked meal is different to that around the 'pre-prepared' meal. For some people, this may be advantageous; for others, not so much or even disadvantageous. 
So I see different types of meal preparation having very different 'end results' - even if the name of the meal is the same ...


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## Blue Hills (27 May 2021)

Low Gear Guy said:


> Maybe people are buying more groceries because they can. If you have to carry all your groceries home you don't overload the basket. Now we have home deliveries non-drivers can also enjoy the benefits of a large shopping trolley.


yep,- and pre-packaged processed stuff generally has more volume.
More shopping by bike I say - entirely practical for folk without young kids - if the kids are older, get them to pedal for their own stuff.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> But - if we take, for example, a beef lasagne, a home cook is unlikely to use horsemeat as the 'beef' ingredient - and a home cook is highly unlikely to use the same recipe in their spag bol as does the factory version. The factory version almost inevitably has a lot more ingredients - and the cheaper the item, the more ingredients, it seems. You can see the list of ingredients of such dishes on supermarket websites; as an example, I'd use none of the added wheys and caseins, I wouldn't be using both yeast extract AND salt, no added wheat gluten (only that which is already in the flour used to thicken a sauce although I tend to use arrowroot. potato flour or cornflour for that, _if _it's needed), _no palm oil. _ I'd be using a low-fat mince and/or dry frying and removing excess fat. And yes, the body _can '_tell the difference' between a high-fat mince and a low-fat one in its contribution to the whole.
> In addition, the entire level and type of activity around a home-cooked meal is different to that around the 'pre-prepared' meal. For some people, this may be advantageous; for others, not so much or even disadvantageous.
> So I see different types of meal preparation having very different 'end results' - even if the name of the meal is the same ...


Like the person above, you're not comparing like with like. Of course if you change the formulation the food changes, of course it has a different nutritional content. However this discussion started as "the nutrients in highly processed food are more available to the body than home cooked food, because of the processing", which is not true.
You're saying "I use nicer ingredients at home than the manufacturers", which is probably the case if you shop carefully, certainly for the cheaper end of the manufactured foods market. It's not for the premium end though, and I know, because I make the stuff. I see the beef that goes into a pie. What checks do you make on the raw material that your butcher uses in his mince?


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## neil_merseyside (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> You aren't comparing like with like. Yes, a smoothie or juice is not the same as fruit. A beef joint is not a burger. White flour is not wholegrain. This we know. But minced beef is minced beef, and the body can't tell the difference between my spag bol and one that came out of a factory to the same recipe. How can it? The unit operations, to use manufacturers ' speak, are identical, so you get the same result.


Minced beef is minced beef? What tosh, in a ready meal it is likely the cheapest nastiest cuts, or mechanically recovered/floor sweepings, but butchers minced beef is a whole lot better being from a single cut of meat, that you see being ground from the lump of meat you picked. 
We had some lamb mince from a supermarket (Asda?) as a substitution and it was in the usual wiggly bits as 'normal' but those wiggles had meat particles the size of sand grains pressed together, whereas the supermarket standard mince had larger bits/strings (of admittedly unknown bits/type of meat) certainly not a reconstituted goo. We now use the mince from a butcher, or we make our own with the sausage maker/mincer we bought in fear of the factory processed stuff.
Ready meals can be good, but most are just hyper processed carp, with all that extra processing they change to something rather different.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Minced beef is minced beef? What tosh, in a ready meal it is likely the cheapest nastiest cuts, or mechanically recovered/floor sweepings, but butchers minced beef is a whole lot better being from a single cut of meat, that you see being ground from the lump of meat you picked.
> We had some lamb mince from a supermarket (Asda?) as a substitution and it was in the usual wiggly bits as 'normal' but those wiggles had meat particles the size of sand grains pressed together, whereas the supermarket standard mince had larger bits/strings (of admittedly unknown bits/type of meat) certainly not a reconstituted goo. We now use the mince from a butcher, or we make our own with the sausage maker/mincer we bought in fear of the factory processed stuff.
> Ready meals can be good, but most are just hyper processed carp, with all that extra processing they change to something rather different.


The point I am making is that you have to compare like with like, see the post above. Minced beef *to a specification* is the same. Of course if you start with different raw materials you will get a different result. I'm addressing "all that extra processing they change to something rather different." which is not true.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> in a ready meal it is likely the cheapest nastiest cuts, or mechanically recovered/floor sweepings, but butchers minced beef is a whole lot better being from a single cut of meat, that you see being ground from the lump of meat you picked.


1. Mechanically recovered red meat is not legal post BSE. If you were better informed about meat you'd know this.
2. If you can watch your butcher making his mince, lucky you. If you don't, you have no means of knowing what's in it. 
People distrust "food manufacturers" but trust their local butcher's shop. Almost invariably. They are convinced the manufacturers use floor sweepings and that the small shops can be trusted. I worked, briefly, for a wet fish processor, and left because the owner was...well, I'll leave it there. Some stuff went to the big retailers, who inspected the factories. Some stuff went to his brother and was sold in the local wet fish trade. His brother didn't do any inspections. Some fish on sale is honest, some not. I'll let you join the dots. If you want to carry on trusting local shops over and above the bigger retailers, be my guest.


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## neil_merseyside (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> 1. Mechanically recovered red meat is not legal post BSE. If you were better informed about meat you'd know this.
> 2. If you can watch your butcher making his mince, lucky you. If you don't, you have no means of knowing what's in it.
> People distrust "food manufacturers" but trust their local butcher's shop. Almost invariably. They are convinced the manufacturers use floor sweepings and that the small shops can be trusted. I worked, briefly, for a wet fish processor, and left because the owner was...well, I'll leave it there. Some stuff went to the big retailers, who inspected the factories. Some stuff went to his brother and was sold in the local wet fish trade. His brother didn't do any inspections. Some fish on sale is honest, some not. I'll let you join the dots. If you want to carry on trusting local shops over and above the bigger retailers, be my guest.



It's a great relief that mechanically recovered red meat was officially banned, I just hope it isn't still used, the horse-meat (as nice as it is) scandal proved beyond doubt that big companies don't do anywhere near the checking needed.
What about mechanically recovered white meat?


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## annedonnelly (27 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> yep,- and pre-packaged processed stuff generally has more volume.
> More shopping by bike I say - entirely practical for folk without young kids - if the kids are older, get them to pedal for their own stuff.


Yep, once I'd chosen a family pack of Weetabix this morning I had to be careful not to get too much more else my panniers would've been overfull.

And I assume I can have a second breakfast after a 8 mile round trip shop.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> It's a great relief that mechanically recovered red meat was officially banned, I just hope it isn't still used, the horse-meat (as nice as it is) scandal proved beyond doubt that big companies don't do anywhere near the checking needed.
> What about mechanically recovered white meat?


The horse meat scandal was the result of organised criminal gangs getting into the international meat business. Criminal gangs are rather good at breaking the law. Witness the drug trade. The fact that 9 years on there has been no repeat tells another tale about the controls in place. My house was broken into about that time. Does that mean the police do nothing about burglary, or that I do nothing about security? No, it means that crime happens. 
MR poultry exists, it's used for things like canned meatballs. It's pretty revolting stuff, but it's safe to eat, if you want to.


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## Blue Hills (27 May 2021)

annedonnelly said:


> Yep, once I'd chosen a family pack of Weetabix this morning I had to be careful not to get too much more else my panniers would've been overfull.
> 
> And I assume I can have a second breakfast after a 8 mile round trip shop.


bigger panniers and scheduling of purchases.
I assume you didn't eat all of this package yourself in a single day.
Necessitating a trip every day for breakfast.
Obvs I don't know about your personal fitness but an 8 mile round trip is a nice bike-ride. Not rare for me to do that in London for a shop.
Weetabix is packaged of course. Try oats.
edit - looking upthread and seeing your "like" you were probably agreeing with me


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## Reynard (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> However this discussion started as "the nutrients in highly processed food are more available to the body than home cooked food, because of the processing", which is not true.



Erm... Not. This is just one article of many that a simple google search threw up. And I quote:

*"The way that manufacturers process foods makes them very easy to chew and swallow.*
_*
Because much of the fiber is lost during processing, it takes less energy to eat and digest ultra-processed foods than whole or less processed foods.

As a result, it is easier to eat more of these products in shorter periods. In doing so, a person consumes more calories — and uses fewer in digestion — than they would if they had eaten whole foods instead.
*_
*This increases a person’s chances of taking in more calories than they use up, which can lead to unintentional weight gain."*

Point #6 from this: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318630

Yes, it's American, but the gist is near enough the same. And is pretty well much the same what was mentioned on the BBC's "Eat Well For Less" when they did a comparison of ready made to home cooked versions of the same thing.

And this explains why you often end up with the munchies after eating a prepared meal. Less so when eating a home cooked one.


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## neil_merseyside (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> The horse meat scandal was the result of organised criminal gangs getting into the international meat business. Criminal gangs are rather good at breaking the law. Witness the drug trade. The fact that 9 years on there has been no repeat tells another tale about the controls in place. My house was broken into about that time. Does that mean the police do nothing about burglary, or that I do nothing about security? No, it means that crime happens.
> MR poultry exists, it's used for things like canned meatballs. It's pretty revolting stuff, but it's safe to eat, if you want to.


So you never tested/test ingredients? Surely part of QC, scary you don't bother to check ever the major ingredients. 
Security QC would be a visit from police crime prevention officer may well have highlighted your burglary risks.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> So you never tested/test ingredients? Surely part of QC, scary you don't bother to check ever the major ingredients.
> Security QC would be a visit from police crime prevention officer may well have highlighted your burglary risks.


obviously we do. We have a whole raft of controls, testing is a tiny part of that.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Erm... Not. This is just one article of many that a simple google search threw up. And I quote:
> 
> *"The way that manufacturers process foods makes them very easy to chew and swallow.*
> 
> ...


Yes, and it's about satiety and eating more, not ease of digestion. In a mixed diet, eating comparable meals, you can't make one easier to digest than another. Chew, sure. Digest, no. Now you can if you wish compare wheat grains to bread and get that result, but nobody suggests that a sack of wheat is a meal, or that it's comparable with bread.

By the same token a steak is probably easier to digest it it's turned into a hamburger, but then it's not a steak any more. I maintain, and I know, that minced beef turned into a spag bol by me is no harder to digest than a minced beef of identical meat composition turned into a burger, or a factory s pa gb bol. Which is where I came in.

Ease of cramming it down your throat is not to be confused with digestion. Nor is the amount that you eat before you've had enough.

Also, millions of years of evolution have made sure that we don't waste calories. If it goes down your throat, you're burning it. Steak and the same steak, minced, have identical calories. Think about it, is a successful alpha predator that goes and hunts to live going to let a calorie go to wast e?


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## annedonnelly (27 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> edit - looking upthread and seeing your "like" you were probably agreeing with me


Entirely


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## Low Gear Guy (27 May 2021)

Processed food is likely to be easier to digest as it usually contains white pasta and rice rather than wholemeal. This is what the customer has come to expect.


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## Blue Hills (27 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> If they are anything like my daughter No 3, throwing it away, when the Best Before date is reached, and, it has not been eaten.
> 
> I despair


If she lives close by can you salvage it?
Ditto any wine you have marked dates on.


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## Blue Hills (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> Also, millions of years of evolution have made sure that we don't waste calories. If it goes down your throat, you're burning it.


Have I misunderstood something or do you need to rephrase/clarify that?
Looking around there seem to me to be a fair number of folk who need help with their burning.

Serious work with a blowtorch to burn off the fat/accumulated and stored calories.


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## neil_merseyside (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> obviously we do. We have a whole raft of controls, testing is a tiny part of that.


So how did the Horse meat get used then, can't be much checking at all - or is it a case of closing the stable door after the horse had been eaten.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Have I misunderstood something or do you need to rephrase/clarify that?
> Looking around there seem to me to be a fair number of folk who need help with their burning.
> 
> Serious work with a blowtorch to burn off the fat/accumulated and stored calories.


By burn I mean get into your bloodstream. If you then elect to turn it back into a stored fat, then that's another process. The point is that the calories that go down your throat either end up in your bloodstream or, bluntly put, falling out of your bottom. Your body is going to minimise the ones that fall out unabsobed.


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## Blue Hills (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> By burn I mean get into your bloodstream. If you then elect to turn it back into a stored fat, then that's another process. The point is that the calories that go down your throat either end up in your bloodstream or, bluntly put, falling out of your bottom. Your body is going to minimise the ones that fall out unabsobed.


still don't understand.
seems clear to me that many folk eat too much, eat too much junk, don't exercise much, the excess calories far from being burned (by what?) just sit there on their bodies, in many cases leading to an early death.
I don't understand this "elect to" either.


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## BoldonLad (27 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> If she lives close by can you salvage it?
> Ditto any wine you have marked dates on.



There is never any wine going.

I did get a pack of beer last time I called round

If we salvaged the food, it would lead to ill-feeling, ie, it would be obvious we disapprove, of her wastefulness. Sometimes, for family harmony, it is wise to keep your mouth shut, or, as I often advise (outspoken) daughter 4, "best to engage brain, before opening mouth".


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## Reynard (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> Yes, and it's about satiety and eating more, not ease of digestion. In a mixed diet, eating comparable meals, you can't make one easier to digest than another. Chew, sure. Digest, no. Now you can if you wish compare wheat grains to bread and get that result, but nobody suggests that a sack of wheat is a meal, or that it's comparable with bread.
> 
> By the same token a steak is probably easier to digest it it's turned into a hamburger, but then it's not a steak any more. I maintain, and I know, that minced beef turned into a spag bol by me is no harder to digest than a minced beef of identical meat composition turned into a burger, or a factory s pa gb bol. Which is where I came in.
> 
> ...



From purely a chemical composition POV, yes, I will agree with you. I've done enough combustion / energy tests in a lab in my time. But that's incredibly idealized and not true-to-life.

The process of preparing, cooking, eating, digesting etc throws in a lot more variables, and hence it's not quite as simple as you make it out to be.

And comparing a burger to a spag bol is not a fair test either, as the other ingredients (beef aside) are totally different. It's apples and pears here, I'm afraid. 

And in any case, you'd be working with slightly different cuts of meat as well. You can get away with a leaner meat in spag bol than you would in a burger, because the cooking methods themselves are different. You are grilling or frying a burger at a fairly high temperature, and so you need a fattier mince to keep the meat moist. The ragu for a spag bol is braised in liquid.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> From purely a chemical composition POV, yes, I will agree with you. I've done enough combustion / energy tests in a lab in my time. But that's incredibly idealized and not true-to-life.
> 
> The process of preparing, cooking, eating, digesting etc throws in a lot more variables, and hence it's not quite as simple as you make it out to be.
> 
> ...


You're talking about different composition again. If the meat has a different fat level, it's different. If not, not. Yes, a spag bol has tomatoes etc, doesn't matter. It's additive. I'm answering your point that identical components that are industrial ly processed are somehow nutritional ly different from the same identical components made into a meal by you or me. They aren't.


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## Reynard (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> You're talking about different composition again. If the meat has a different fat level, it's different. If not, not. Yes, a spag bol has tomatoes etc, doesn't matter. It's additive. I'm answering your point that identical components that are industrial ly processed are somehow nutritional ly different from the same identical components made into a meal by you or me. They aren't.



Yes they can be. And quite often it's purely down to the scale of the equipment. Something mixed in vast quantities in an industrial sized drum will have much shorter strands of fibre than the same thing made by me in my kitchen.

In a lab test, the *calories* in whatever it is will be the same - I'm not disputing that. But the more long strands of fibre there is in something, the harder it is for the body to extract those calories. And the harder your body has to work to *access* the calories, the fewer are actually available for your body to turn into fuel.

Unless you know something about the laws of conservation of energy that I don't...


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## battered (27 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> still don't understand.
> seems clear to me that many folk eat too much, eat too much junk, don't exercise much, the excess calories far from being burned (by what?) just sit there on their bodies, in many cases leading to an early death.
> I don't understand this "elect to" either.


OK. You and I need to eat 2500 calories a day, give or take. This is converted, with pretty decent efficiency, into proteins (amino acids, pedant alert), carbs and fats (FFAs and glycerol, pedant alert) and these leave the gut and go into the bloodstream. The body then *elects* what to do with them. If you eat only 2500 cals, there's no spare and the components are reassembled into body parts, repairs, or burnt for energy. The energy is used to keep us warm or move about. The proportion of components used for repair or burnt for energy varies. If there are a lot of repairs or muscle building to do, all the protein gets used for rebuilding new body protein. The body monitors the supply of amino acids, carbs, fats etc and elects to use them as building blocks of living things o r use them for energy. That's the simple case where the food supply is adequate but not excessive. 
if times are good and calories exceed 2500, the body will generally store spare energy in the form of fatty tissue. If times are hard, this tissue is taken apart and used for repairs, energy, etc. The balance of days of plenty versus hard times dictates whether an individual tends to gain or lose weight.
very simplistic, but these are the basic facts.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Yes they can be. And quite often it's purely down to the scale of the equipment. Something mixed in vast quantities in an industrial sized drum will have much shorter strands of fibre than the same thing made by me in my kitchen.


No it won't. If I turn wheat grains into flour in a hand mill at home, and sieve it to the same sieve size, as Smith's Flour Mills of Worksop with their massive millstones, it will be the same flour. The fibre particles will be the same.

The same goes for other food materials. If I make significant changes to the composition (eg size distribution) of a food, I will change its behaviour in the finished food. So if I had a crap mill and only took my hand made flour down to half grains of wheat, you would have a point. But I don't, my hand powered flour mill works if I put enough work in to mill it down to flour, and if I didn't mill it down to flour it wouldn't work for bread. I'd know if one of my processes were significantly different because that ingredient would then behave differently in the final recipe. Meat mincing, likewise. I can do it a kilo at a time, or a tonne. If one has a different size distribution, let's say if I had a bowl chopper that turned it into a comminute rather than a mince, then it will be obvious, because it won't work in mince recipes.

The point is that meat mincing, flour milling and the like are not different when they are done in a factory, other than the scale of the whole thing. The unit operation remains the same, just like crude oil distilled in a laboratory will generate identical petrol to that distilled in a massive oil refinery still, because the unit operation is the same. 



> Unless you know something about the laws of conservation of energy that I don't...


No, same laws of conservation. Different understanding of the principles of unit operations, maybe.


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## KnittyNorah (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> Like the person above, you're not comparing like with like. Of course if you change the formulation the food changes, of course it has a different nutritional content. However this discussion started as "the nutrients in highly processed food are more available to the body than home cooked food, because of the processing", which is not true.
> You're saying "I use nicer ingredients at home than the manufacturers", which is probably the case if you shop carefully, certainly for the cheaper end of the manufactured foods market. It's not for the premium end though, and I know, because I make the stuff. I see the beef that goes into a pie. What checks do you make on the raw material that your butcher uses in his mince?



Since being a young adult, I have tried to only eat meat from animals I have personally met and which I, or someone I know and trust, has either done the deed or accompanied them to the abbatoir; for many years, therefore, I have been effectively vegetarian and sometimes even vegan when eating away from home. Currently my preferred practice is not possible and it is doubtful that it will become so in the near future, either, so I am now largely vegetarian, occasionally pescatarian.
My mother, however, taught me to use a recognisable cut of meat, preferably from a carcase I had seen for myself, and make my own mince with a Spong hand-powered mincer, which I still have somewhere in a box. This has come in very useful at times in my life when I was presented with a part of a dead animal and expected to make a 'British' style dish with the creature allocated to me ...

ETA it is impossible to replicate some industrially-prepared food in the home kitchen anyway, as even some of the ingredients are not ones available to the normal home cook, so there is no ability to make a direct comparison anyway.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> This has come in very useful at times in my life when I was presented with a part of a dead animal and expected to make a 'British' style dish with the creature allocated to me ...


This sort of thing goes down very well in France. I do like a nice rabbit, so too do the French. I also like cooking, but the French can't quite grasp the idea on an English person who can cook. An English *man* who can cook, well that's just _infaisable_.


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## KnittyNorah (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> This sort of thing goes down very well in France. I do like a nice rabbit, so too do the French. I also like cooking, but the French can't quite grasp the idea on an English person who can cook. An English *man* who can cook, well that's just _infaisable_.



The mincer worked overtime when I was given a shoulder of Sudanese baby camel some time in the 1970s, with the suggestion that a shepherds pie would be appreciated … I insisted it was referred to as cameleer's pie.


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## Reynard (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> No it won't. If I turn wheat grains into flour in a hand mill at home, and sieve it to the same sieve size, as Smith's Flour Mills of Worksop with their massive millstones, it will be the same flour. The fibre particles will be the same.
> 
> The same goes for other food materials. If I make significant changes to the composition (eg size distribution) of a food, I will change its behaviour in the finished food. So if I had a crap mill and only took my hand made flour down to half grains of wheat, you would have a point. But I don't, my hand powered flour mill works if I put enough work in to mill it down to flour, and if I didn't mill it down to flour it wouldn't work for bread. I'd know if one of my processes were significantly different because that ingredient would then behave differently in the final recipe. Meat mincing, likewise. I can do it a kilo at a time, or a tonne. If one has a different size distribution, let's say if I had a bowl chopper that turned it into a comminute rather than a mince, then it will be obvious, because it won't work in mince recipes.
> 
> ...



You're going off on a tangent again. The processing done to flour, or simply mincing meat for that matter, is NOT the same as making cottage pie ready meals on an industrial scale. And in any case, the vast majority of flour is made using a succession of rollers to crack the grain rather than rotating millstones. Unless it specifically labelled as "stoneground."

Stoneground flour has to be sifted to remove the bran and produce white flour. Roller-produced flour strips the bran off first, and then the crushed grain gets progressively finer as it goes through the system. Some of that first "cut" ends up as animal feed, but a good deal of it is actually added back into the end product to make 80% extraction flour and wholemeal.

Virtually all food is processed to some degree or other - otherwise we'd still be eating raw meat and apples and nuts off a tree. The conversation is about the ultra processed stuff, which often bears no resemblance to what it actually started out as.

As for the laws of conservation of energy, you never ever get complete conversion. 

To put it simply, energy in = energy out + waste. That is an immutable law of physics. Waste is usually (but not always) in the form of heat. In terms of eating food, the waste in the equation is down to how hard your gut has to work to extract the calories in food. The less processed (i.e. closer to its natural state) that something is, the harder your gut has to work in order to extract the calories in it. And the harder it has to work - due to the presence of more fibre, for instance - the less the net output. Given that it is known that our gut finds it easier to extract calories from ultra-processed foods, the maths should self-explanatory.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> You're going off on a tangent again. The processing done to flour, or simply mincing meat for that matter, is NOT the same as making cottage pie ready meals on an industrial scale.


The unit operations for making a cottage pie on an industrial scale are the same as those used at home. Honestly. The pans are bigger, and have steam jackets, that's all. But we still start with chopped onion, oil, fry it a bit, add meat. Add the other veg, water, etc. I've watched it happen, I know the guy's name operating the cooker. The thing is that if the process were different enough to change the nutritional content, the chemistry of the food would be different, and so the process wouldn't work. The fact that the stuff made by Tomek on Prep Pan 1 tastes the same as the original kitchen samples tells you that the cooking operations are the same.



> Given that it is known that our gut finds it easier to extract calories from ultra processed food, the maths should self-explanatory.


No, this is not known, unless you are trying to compare, say, whole wheat grains with flour. If you were, then you'd have a point because whole grains will pass through undigested and in one piece. But whole grains won't make bread. My hand milled flour has identical calories to the industrial sort. Because nothing is added or taken away, the grist is identical, and the stuff has no significant differences, once it has been made. If it were different, it wouldn't make bread.


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## Reynard (27 May 2021)

battered said:


> The unit operations for making a cottage pie on an industrial scale are the same as those used at home. Honestly. The pans are bigger, and have steam jackets, that's all. But we still start with chopped onion, oil, fry it a bit, add meat. Add the other veg, water, etc. I've watched it happen, I know the guy's name operating the cooker. The thing is that if the process were different enough to change the nutritional content, the chemistry of the food would be different, and so the process wouldn't work. The fact that the stuff made by Tomek on Prep Pan 1 tastes the same as the original kitchen samples tells you that the cooking operations are the same.



So how do you make mashed potato then? With a giant version of this?  Unlikely, I'd say?







This one is identical to mine, btw, except that mine has a blue handle.



> No, this is not known, unless you are trying to compare, say, whole wheat grains with flour. If you were, then you'd have a point because whole grains will pass through undigested and in one piece. But whole grains won't make bread. My hand milled flour has identical calories to the industrial sort. Because nothing is added or taken away, the grist is identical, and the stuff has no significant differences, once it has been made. If it were different, it wouldn't make bread.



Again, you're side-stepping the issue. I gave you a link to a good article earlier, and a simple google search threw up quite a few more. As a scientist by training, it is second nature for me to provide references in order to back up a discussion.

And by the way, you obviously have never eaten pumpernickel then, which is made primarily with cracked whole grains.


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## battered (27 May 2021)

You know what, we do make mashed potato with a thing like that. It's a giant auger forcing cooked potatoes through a grid that looks just like that thing there, except 2 feet across

As for pumpernickel, yes I have had it. Different grains, different process. I've compared it to white bread in the UK, and noticed it's not the same. Just like it's a completely different food materi al. Different nutrition info, too.

The article you linked earlier is about processed food being higher in salt and sugar, etc, and about satiety and appetite. There are more calories because you eat more of it and it's got other stuff in it. Not because the calories are more accessible. If you can find me peer reviewed proof to the contrary, then we need to rewrite the nutrition textbooks.


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## Reynard (28 May 2021)

battered said:


> You know what, we do make mashed potato with a thing like that. It's a giant auger forcing cooked potatoes through a grid that looks just like that thing there, except 2 feet across
> 
> As for pumpernickel, yes I have had it. Different grains, different process. I've compared it to white bread in the UK, and noticed it's not the same. Just like it's a completely different food materi al. Different nutrition info, too.
> 
> The article you linked earlier is about processed food being higher in salt and sugar, etc, and about satiety and appetite. There are more calories because you eat more of it and it's got other stuff in it. Not because the calories are more accessible. If you can find me peer reviewed proof to the contrary, then we need to rewrite the nutrition textbooks.



This should tick your boxes - from Havard: https://theconversation.com/why-most-food-labels-are-wrong-about-calories-35081

As should this, although the emphasis different though equally valid: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325194

And the study in the second article was mentioned on the BBC documentary "What are we feeding our kids" that was aired this evening. It is available HERE on the i-player for the next five months. The documentary is certainly thought-provoking and a worthwhile watch if you've an hour to spare. And it backs up a lot of what I and others have been saying all through this thread.

And please, answer me this: if you make mashed potato in exactly the same way as I do in my kitchen - but on a bigger scale, then why does ready-made mashed potato have this godawful gummy, claggy texture?

N.B. I boil my potatoes (I use locally-grown maris pipers) until they're *almost* done, then take the pan off the heat and let the potatoes poach in the hot water until very tender. Then I drain, add pepper, nutmeg, a small lump of butter and a splash of milk. My mash is lovely and fluffy, needing the minimum of mashing, and it's certainly not gummy.


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## Blue Hills (28 May 2021)

Not aware that I ever had a reply to my question above @battered .

Also, can you declare you interest?

You appear to work in the processed food industry?

Declaring my interest - I mostly cook from simple ingredients, eat the minimum of processed food apart from snacks* - as has been said above, most pre-packaged food has a whole host of ingredients in it, mysterious and not so mysterious, I see no need for. And is bulky and expensive by any normal measure.

*It help that I am content to eat similar stuff every day - am no gourmet cook.


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## battered (28 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Not aware that I ever had a reply to my question above @battered .
> 
> Also, can you declare you interest?
> 
> ...


Post no 398.
I'm a technical consultant to tbe food industry, I said earlier, a few pages back.
As for an interest, no. As long as food is manufactured, I'll have work somewhere. Quality/yield/hygiene/efficiency will always need to be improved. That's where I come in.


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## Blue Hills (28 May 2021)

battered said:


> Post no 398.
> I'm a technical consultant to tbe food industry, I said earlier, a few pages back.


ta for the reply, honest of you, explains things somewhat.
My attitude is that there is little need for the "food industry" - just simple ingredients - real cooking takes not a lot longer than the industry packaged processed stuff, is cheaper and healthier.
Of course the issue is complicated with kids and their search for novelty/susceptibility to advertising and peer pressure.
I don't count tinned stuff as necessarily processed - some of it is very straightforward stuff.
In my view the government needs to find ways to promote fruit and veg consumption/markets.
I'm lucky in that London is, surprisingly perhaps, still rather blesssed by street food markets.


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## KnittyNorah (28 May 2021)

The fact is that our internal biomes differ greatly - to some extent, at least (and many would say to a large extent), according to our diet. The bacterial content of any animal's digestive system plays a large part in - well - _digesting _their food. Naturally my gut flora will be vastly different to that of, say, a spider or a mole - but it will also change over time, when my diet changes, and as my overall health changes. So my gut flora as a vegetarian in my mid 70s will be very different to that of my neighbour who is a frequent meat-eater in his 30s. However, his gut flora will also be different to those of his peers who eat a highly-processed diet of Greggs pies, ready meals and fizzy drinks, as N does most of his own cooking and enjoys nothing more than game from the estate on which he works as head gardener together with home (or rather estate) produced veggies, and big pint mugs of tea! 

Although there is no such thing as 'thin' bacteria or 'fat' microbes, gut flora definitely _helps_ to regulate metabolism and nutrient absorption - and hence, will have an effect on weight management. How significant that effect is in different individuals, clinical condition , and why, is still part of ongoing and active research, but it is known that a person eating a largely industrially-processed diet _will_ have a different gut flora to the person eating a less-processed diet. The greater difference in their diet, the greater difference in their gut flora. There are links - correlations, if you like - between a highly-processed diet and the incidence of obesity in a society. Correlation is, we can all agree, not causation. 

However, it is clear that it is not merely the energy (ie calorie) content of the diet vs the calories of physical activity expended that is the deciding factor in weight gain, loss or maintenance. Ignoring clinical conditions and disorders which may affect such, and looking only at 'well' individuals, gut flora - which I will remind you is different in every individual - helps to determine how much energy your body absorbs, and also how hungry or full you feel. 

How much energy your body absorbs from its diet, and how hungry or full you feel, is surely a large part of weight gain, loss, or maintenance? 
So even if the industrially-made cottage pie contains exactly the same *ingredients* as the home-made one, they will most likely not be entering similar environments in which to be digested, and the calories thus absorbed in different digestive systems will vary ... 

There's a lot of research going on wrt gut flora and the microbiome - naturally much of it is concentrated on illness (such as the concept of faecal transfer of healthy gut flora to the sufferer of C dfficile infection) rather than on the 'well-but-obese', but spin-offs are already happening to a small extent and there will undoubtedly be further developments in the future.


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## battered (28 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> This should tick your boxes - from Havard: https://theconversation.com/why-most-food-labels-are-wrong-about-calories-35081
> 
> As should this, although the emphasis different though equally valid: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325194
> 
> ...


thanks for that. The fi rst, with the rats, does support your view that heavier processing makes the nutrients more available. That's a new one on me, I've not seen a similar study. How significant it is for a mixed die t in the real world remains to be seen. I shall have a chat with my nutritionist friend. The second study, with humans, shows that they are more food when it was heavily processed, and so gained weight. No surprise thefe. That's in line with what we know about appetizing food, speed of eating, and satiety. I'm interested in the psychology of food, which is FAR more important than people think.

Potatoes- probably a combination of water content and mixing time. My guess is that yours are relatively dry and minimally mashed, so the starch grains are unbroken. The manufacture e ones are probably wetter and worked for longer.


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## battered (28 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> ta for the reply, honest of you, explains things somewhat.
> My attitude is that there is little need for the "food industry" - just simple ingredients - real cooking takes not a lot longer than the industry packaged processed stuff, is cheaper and healthier.
> Of course the issue is complicated with kids and their search for novelty/susceptibility to advertising and peer pressure.
> I don't count tinned stuff as necessarily processed - some of it is very straightforward stuff.
> ...


no need for the food industry? Good luck with that. Fortunately for my continued employment there are about 60K people in the UK who see every need for it.


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## Blue Hills (28 May 2021)

battered said:


> no need for the food industry? Good luck with that. Fortunately for my continued employment there are about 60K people in the UK who see every need for it.


I'm not trying to chuck anyone on the employment scrap-heap.
Folk have always used your line whenever anyone tried to question anything.
I well remember it being used all the time about the arnaments industry.
So back to the discussion on food v processed food.
I stress that I'm not being snobby - some of the worst culprits it seems to me on this issue are the retail outfits that like to present themselves at least some of the time as "upmarket".
It's perfectly possibly to eat well, tastily and healthily in my view by limiting your shopping to markets, Lidl and Aldi.


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## keithmac (28 May 2021)

As a family we eat both home made and packet meals. None of us are obese.

Calories in vs calories out and all that, can't out run a bad diet which to me is simply over-eating regardless of how it's prepared.


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## KnittyNorah (28 May 2021)

battered said:


> I shall have a chat with my nutritionist friend.



You are aware, I hope, that the mere title 'nutritionist' means less than nothing and could be legitimately claimed by anyone in CycleChat, a teenage you-tuber out to make some money, someone who is a good cook with a genuine interest in and knowledge of healthy eating - or a weirdo one-food obsessive who thinks tapioca pudding is the final answer to all that ails us ..

Dieticians are the only nutrition professionals to be regulated by law, and governed by an ethical code. They have had an extensive scientific, professional and in-practice education, and must be registered with the HPCP in order to practice and to use the title Dietician.

Graduates from courses which have been accredited by the Association for Nutrition (AfN) - a voluntary body - can have direct entry onto the Association's _ voluntary _register and are then entitled to refer to themselves as Registered Nutritionists, who are considered qualified to provide information about food and healthy eating for the non-ill - a far narrower field than that covered by a dietician, but arguably just as important given that most of us are the non-ill, and that general 'healthy eating' is probably of more benefit to more people than the niceties of faecal donations or specialised dietary treatments for rare genetic diseases which affect the metabolism. However the fact that anyone can claim to be 'a nutritionist' can lead to ... problems ...


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## Scaleyback (28 May 2021)

When I was growing up, born in 1947 I doubt there were any dieticians or nutritionists but of course there were very few overweight/fat/obese people.


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## winjim (28 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> When I was growing up, born in 1947 I doubt there were any dieticians or nutritionists but of course there were very few overweight/fat/obese people.


Rationing didn't end until 1954.


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## matticus (28 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> You are aware, I hope, that the mere title 'nutritionist' means less than nothing and could be legitimately claimed by anyone in CycleChat, a teenage you-tuber out to make some money, someone who is a good cook with a genuine interest in and knowledge of healthy eating - or a weirdo one-food obsessive who thinks tapioca pudding is the final answer to all that ails us ..


This always makes me think of Dr Gillian
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/feb/12/advertising.food


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## winjim (28 May 2021)

matticus said:


> This always makes me think of Dr Gillian
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/feb/12/advertising.food


'Dr'?

Edit: yeah, just clicked the link...


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## Blue Hills (28 May 2021)

winjim said:


> Rationing didn't end until 1954.


And certain beer ingredients not until 1959.


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## KnittyNorah (28 May 2021)

matticus said:


> This always makes me think of Dr Gillian
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2007/feb/12/advertising.food


Well, not to name names, as I'm not here to land CC with nasty letters from greedy self-serving crackpot fraudsters but ...


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## Reynard (28 May 2021)

Scaleyback said:


> When I was growing up, born in 1947 I doubt there were any dieticians or nutritionists but of course there were very few overweight/fat/obese people.



Here's one for you then 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsie_Widdowson

Her work and research helped form the basis of the rationing system in WW2. A very clever and forward-thinking lady from my own Alma Mater.


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## Reynard (28 May 2021)

battered said:


> thanks for that. The fi rst, with the rats, does support your view that heavier processing makes the nutrients more available. That's a new one on me, I've not seen a similar study. How significant it is for a mixed die t in the real world remains to be seen. I shall have a chat with my nutritionist friend. The second study, with humans, shows that they are more food when it was heavily processed, and so gained weight. No surprise thefe. That's in line with what we know about appetizing food, speed of eating, and satiety. I'm interested in the psychology of food, which is FAR more important than people think.
> 
> Potatoes- probably a combination of water content and mixing time. My guess is that yours are relatively dry and minimally mashed, so the starch grains are unbroken. The manufacture e ones are probably wetter and worked for longer.



And I suspect you're probably using an all-purpose or waxy potato rather than floury ones - they *will* go gummy when you mash them, mainly because you have to put a lot more welly into doing so. I use very floury potatoes, which wouldn't cope terribly well with large scale processes as they're very delicate. Plus I just dollop my mash, you're more than likely extruding it. Which would make it more gummy again, as it's another load applied...

Out of curiosity, I wonder what sort of load you are applying to the tatties in what is effectively a giant potato ricer. I'd wager considerably more N/m^2 than I'm applying to mine.

As for the psychology of food, IMHO there is nothing more satisfying than cooking a tasty meal from scratch (humble or poncy) and sitting down at a table with the people closest to me, enjoying good food and setting the world to rights.


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## KnittyNorah (28 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> And I suspect you're probably using an all-purpose or waxy potato rather than floury ones - they *will* go gummy when you mash them, mainly because you have to put a lot more welly into doing so. I use very floury potatoes, which wouldn't cope terribly well with large scale processes as they're very delicate. Plus I just dollop my mash, you're more than likely extruding it. Which would make it more gummy again, as it's another load applied...
> 
> Out of curiosity, I wonder what sort of load you are applying to the tatties in what is effectively a giant potato ricer. I'd wager considerably more N/m^2 than I'm applying to mine.
> 
> As for the psychology of food, IMHO there is nothing more satisfying than cooking a tasty meal from scratch (humble or poncy) and sitting down at a table with the people closest to me, enjoying good food and setting the world to rights.



Potatoes vary _so much_ in their flavours and their textures, don't they? There's such a huge difference between them I have to wonder how on earth anyone came up with the quip 'the humble spud'!


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## Reynard (28 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Potatoes vary _so much_ in their flavours and their textures, don't they? There's such a huge difference between them I have to wonder how on earth anyone came up with the quip 'the humble spud'!



Goodness me, yes...

Have to admit, my go-to for mash, chips or roasties is the good old Maris Piper. They grow loads out here, and you can buy them by the roadside for a song. And I'm not above picking up the ones that end up in the verge when the trailers go over a very bouncy bit of road. The free ones always seem to taste the best! 

Desirees have a lovely flavour. They make a brilliant mash mash, but as they absorb more fat than a Piper (a factlet mentioned to me by a farmer friend who supplies all the local chip shops), I won't use them for anything else.

Georgina or Lanorma for jackets. Not as floury as Pipers, but they have a sweet and nutty flavour, and the skins crisp up fabulously.

Had some lovely Majorcan new potatoes this evening - a lovely earthy flavour that went a treat with the dill, lemon & garlic butter.


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## KnittyNorah (28 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Goodness me, yes...
> 
> Have to admit, my go-to for mash, chips or roasties is the good old Maris Piper. They grow loads out here, and you can buy them by the roadside for a song. And I'm not above picking up the ones that end up in the verge when the trailers go over a very bouncy bit of road. The free ones always seem to taste the best!
> 
> ...



I like the waxy, 'salad' type potatoes - hot or cold, cooked in a multitude of ways. Ratte is _delicious _but hard to find here in the UK. Pink Fir Apple equally nice, but the very devil to peel/skin and not a good yielder, at least not on a Lancashire allotment! Anya is easier to find commercially in shops, isn't as knobbly as PFA but has a not-dissimilar nutty flavour. International Kidney again prefers a milder climate, I think - or maybe less rain? - as I've had little success growing it - but it is widely available as 'Jersey Royal'. Nadine and Charlotte are often recommended as waxy potatoes but I don't rate them. The texture is OK-ish, but the flavour too bland. I also enjoy the colourful heritage varieties such as Highland Burgundy and Salad Blue for their novelty value - there's nothing quite like burgundy or indigo potato cakes, and one or two in a potato salad will tint the entire dish pink or lavender! Rainbow-coloured chips, anyone? They make me laugh - as do purple carrots, orange and lime-green cauliflower, yellow 'green' beans and multi-coloured and striped tomatoes!


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## Reynard (28 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I like the waxy, 'salad' type potatoes - hot or cold, cooked in a multitude of ways. Ratte is _delicious _but hard to find here in the UK. Pink Fir Apple equally nice, but the very devil to peel/skin and not a good yielder, at least not on a Lancashire allotment! Anya is easier to find commercially in shops, isn't as knobbly as PFA but has a not-dissimilar nutty flavour. International Kidney again prefers a milder climate, I think - or maybe less rain? - as I've had little success growing it - but it is widely available as 'Jersey Royal'. Nadine and Charlotte are often recommended as waxy potatoes but I don't rate them. The texture is OK-ish, but the flavour too bland. I also enjoy the colourful heritage varieties such as Highland Burgundy and Salad Blue for their novelty value - there's nothing quite like burgundy or indigo potato cakes, and one or two in a potato salad will tint the entire dish pink or lavender! Rainbow-coloured chips, anyone? They make me laugh - as do purple carrots, orange and lime-green cauliflower, yellow 'green' beans and multi-coloured and striped tomatoes!



On the other hand, Charlotte is good to use in something like a tartiflette to sop up all the bacon-y, garlic-y, cheese-y goodness. 

Although that's not exactly a dish that really wants mentioning in a thread on obesity. 

I don't grow my own potatoes these days, but I do herbs, beans, tomatoes and courgettes. Plus apples, plums, cherries and apricots.


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## Reynard (28 May 2021)

Oh yes, yellow cherries... I have a big Bigarreau Napoleon tree in my garden, which the birds leave well alone until they're overripe. Gorgeous cherries to eat, but they're the wrong colour for jam...

I once caught a lorry driver stopped on the corner, leaning out of his cab, over the fence and helping himself to cherries.


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## KnittyNorah (28 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> On the other hand, Charlotte is good to use in something like a tartiflette to sop up all the bacon-y, garlic-y, cheese-y goodness.


… when its blandness becomes a virtue! And with the 'all things in moderation' mantra in mind as being a sensible way to maintain a healthy weight, a small helping as an occasional part of a balanced diet will be perfectly OK. Now, just tell when it'll be ready and I'll be round to help you balance it … YUM!


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## Reynard (29 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> … when its blandness becomes a virtue! And with the 'all things in moderation' mantra in mind as being a sensible way to maintain a healthy weight, a small helping as an occasional part of a balanced diet will be perfectly OK. Now, just tell when it'll be ready and I'll be round to help you balance it … YUM!



I go by the mantra that everything is fine in moderation - including moderation...  And I do 'fess up to already having a large lump of Reblochon cheese in the fridge. It's starting to reach a very desirable degree of squishyness 

Just follow the whiff of garlic due south east 

To be fair though, I do eat pretty healthily, but sometimes a girl really does need a plate of comforting stodge.


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## neil_merseyside (29 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I go by the mantra that everything is fine in moderation - including moderation...  And I do 'fess up to already having a large lump of Reblochon cheese in the fridge. It's starting to reach a very desirable degree of squishyness
> 
> Just follow the whiff of garlic due south east
> 
> To be fair though, I do eat pretty healthily, but sometimes a girl really does need a plate of comforting stodge.


Tartiflette I hope, the best combination of cheese, spuds, bacon (OK lardons), onion AND garlic, oh and cream that's known to man (sorry personkind)


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## lazybloke (29 May 2021)

battered said:


> *You aren't comparing like with like*. Yes, a smoothie or juice is not the same as fruit. A beef joint is not a burger. White flour is not wholegrain. This we know. But minced beef is minced beef, and the body can't tell the difference between my spag bol and one that came out of a factory to the same recipe. How can it? The unit operations, to use manufacturers ' speak, are identical, so you get the same result.


Yes, that's because I disagree that a ready meal is the same as a freshly cooked meal.
Ready meals are a mass produced item so basic economics will drive the use of cheaper processed ingredients of the lowest 'acceptable' quality.
Even if a fresh ingredient is sourced, it has to be processed to a predictable format to allow mechanisation of the production line, and to result in a product that always looks the same to the customer. This is impossible without processing.
Why use whole cuts of meat if reformed leftovers are cheaper to source?
Why use fresh milk if UHT is cheaper to buy and store, without any risk of going off?
Why transport heavy liquid ingredients if a dried or concentrated version is easier & cheaper to move?
The testers said the colour was too pale? Never mind, we'll throw in unnecessary colourings?
Flavour too bland? We'll throw in various extracts.

Ready meals = processed food.
The body reacts differently to processed food than it does to freshly cooked food.

There'll be a debate on how much of a difference there is, and its impact, but to deny a difference is ridiculous.


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## battered (29 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Yes, that's because I disagree that a ready meal is the same as a freshly cooked meal.
> Ready meals are a mass produced item so basic economics will drive the use of cheaper processed ingredients of the lowest 'acceptable' quality.
> Even if a fresh ingredient is sourced, it has to be processed to a predictable format to allow mechanisation of the production line, and to result in a product that always looks the same to the customer. This is impossible without processing.
> Why use whole cuts of meat if reformed leftovers are cheaper to source?
> ...


There is not a drive to use the cheapest possible ingredients, other than an obvious commercial push to get the right ingredients at the best price you can from a reliable supplier. Once the spec is agreed, that's it. If a meat pie uses 90VL beef of whatever size and from whatever parts of the animal, that's it. I know this, it's written in the specifications. Compliance with these specifications is inspected by the retailers and regulatory bodies, like the TSO and EHO. If I could I'd invite you to the factories and show you. But you wouldn't come, because you want to remain sure in your belief that manufacured foods use "reformed leftovers". We don't, we use minced babies.


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## battered (29 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> You are aware, I hope, that the mere title 'nutritionist' means less than nothing and could be legitimately claimed by anyone in CycleChat, a teenage you-tuber out to make some money, someone who is a good cook with a genuine interest in and knowledge of healthy eating - or a weirdo one-food obsessive who thinks tapioca pudding is the final answer to all that ails us ..
> 
> Dieticians are the only nutrition professionals to be regulated by law, and governed by an ethical code. They have had an extensive scientific, professional and in-practice education, and must be registered with the HPCP in order to practice and to use the title Dietician.
> 
> Graduates from courses which have been accredited by the Association for Nutrition (AfN) - a voluntary body - can have direct entry onto the Association's _ voluntary _register and are then entitled to refer to themselves as Registered Nutritionists, who are considered qualified to provide information about food and healthy eating for the non-ill - a far narrower field than that covered by a dietician, but arguably just as important given that most of us are the non-ill, and that general 'healthy eating' is probably of more benefit to more people than the niceties of faecal donations or specialised dietary treatments for rare genetic diseases which affect the metabolism. However the fact that anyone can claim to be 'a nutritionist' can lead to ... problems ...


My friend has a BSc, a PhD, and a number of published papers on the subject. She chairs a committee of learned professionals on various aspects of nutrition, including obesity. I rather suspect that she knows what she's talking about. I don't think her use of the title "Dr" is made up.


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## KnittyNorah (29 May 2021)

battered said:


> My friend has a BSc, a PhD, and a number of published papers on the subject. She chairs a committee of learned professionals on various aspects of nutrition, including obesity. I rather suspect that she knows what she's talking about. I don't think her use of the title "Dr" is made up.



Then why refer to her as a 'nutritionist', which as I have already explained is a title with no meaning whatsoever? and where did I suggest that she is making anything up? Saying that someone is a nutritionist confers no status, level of authority or indication of competence _at all; _it fools some of the laymen much of the time (which is why it is used, of course) but it doesn't fool me_. _Fortunately you have confirmed what I hoped was true - that she is considerably more than a mere 'nutritionist' - and it is _not_ correct to refer to her as such. 

I would hope that none of the members of the learned committee which she chairs think of her as a weirdo charlatan out to make a personal profit from algal soup, chlorophyll enemas or whatever other bizzarro-style 'dietary supplement' is the current flavour of the month among most of the members of that unqualified bunch who choose to refer to themselves as 'nutritionists'. Does she refer to _herself_ as a 'nutritionist' - or as a scientist?


----------



## winjim (29 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Then why refer to her as a 'nutritionist', which as I have already explained is a title with no meaning whatsoever? and where did I suggest that she is making anything up? Saying that someone is a nutritionist confers no status, level of authority or indication of competence _at all; _it fools some of the laymen much of the time (which is why it is used, of course) but it doesn't fool me_. _Fortunately you have confirmed what I hoped was true - that she is considerably more than a mere 'nutritionist' - and it is _not_ correct to refer to her as such.
> 
> I would hope that none of the members of the learned committee which she chairs think of her as a weirdo charlatan out to make a personal profit from algal soup, chlorophyll enemas or whatever other bizzarro-style 'dietary supplement' is the current flavour of the month among most of the members of that unqualified bunch who choose to refer to themselves as 'nutritionists'. Does she refer to _herself_ as a 'nutritionist' - or as a scientist?


You know that not all nutritionists are charlatans, right? I'm a chemist, that's not a protected title so should I not refer to myself as such?

I kind of feel like a lot of this discussion should perhaps be in the conspiracy theory thread.


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## Reynard (29 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Tartiflette I hope, the best combination of cheese, spuds, bacon (OK lardons), onion AND garlic, oh and cream that's known to man (sorry personkind)



Of course! Tartiflette is just such brilliant comfort food.


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## Reynard (29 May 2021)

battered said:


> There is not a drive to use the cheapest possible ingredients, other than an obvious commercial push to get the right ingredients at the best price you can from a reliable supplier. Once the spec is agreed, that's it. If a meat pie uses 90VL beef of whatever size and from whatever parts of the animal, that's it. I know this, it's written in the specifications. Compliance with these specifications is inspected by the retailers and regulatory bodies, like the TSO and EHO. If I could I'd invite you to the factories and show you. But you wouldn't come, because you want to remain sure in your belief that manufacured foods use "reformed leftovers". We don't, we use minced babies.



Ah, Product Design Specifications. I've written a fair few of them in my time, albeit for prototype automotive components. And at opposite ends of the spectrum - Ford vans and Formula 1 cars. Some stuff, invariably transits (!) over, whether it's a Transit Connect or a meat pie.

Certainly, for the mass market, you *are* working to produce something at a particular price point, and you can't deny that it *does* affect the choices that you make in terms of ingredients and quantities. Although given you're churning out thousands of pies a day, you have a buying power that the home cook doesn't have. I'll buy a 1.5kg bag of flour, you'll buy a whole truck at a time, that sort of thing.

But given that everyone in the supply chain from farm to fork needs to make a profit (otherwise, what's the point of being in the business), you can't deny that it does tend to raise questions. And uncomfortable questions at that.


----------



## battered (29 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Then why refer to her as a 'nutritionist', which as I have already explained is a title with no meaning whatsoever? and where did I suggest that she is making anything up? Saying that someone is a nutritionist confers no status, level of authority or indication of competence _at all; _it fools some of the laymen much of the time (which is why it is used, of course) but it doesn't fool me_. _Fortunately you have confirmed what I hoped was true - that she is considerably more than a mere 'nutritionist' - and it is _not_ correct to refer to her as such.
> 
> I would hope that none of the members of the learned committee which she chairs think of her as a weirdo charlatan out to make a personal profit from algal soup, chlorophyll enemas or whatever other bizzarro-style 'dietary supplement' is the current flavour of the month among most of the members of that unqualified bunch who choose to refer to themselves as 'nutritionists'. Does she refer to _herself_ as a 'nutritionist' - or as a scientist?


She calls herself a nutritionist. That's her job, that's what it says on her degree certificate(s).


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## battered (29 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Ah, Product Design Specifications. I've written a fair few of them in my time, albeit for prototype automotive components. And at opposite ends of the spectrum - Ford vans and Formula 1 cars. Some stuff, invariably transits (!) over, whether it's a Transit Connect or a meat pie.
> 
> Certainly, for the mass market, you *are* working to produce something at a particular price point, and you can't deny that it *does* affect the choices that you make in terms of ingredients and quantities. Although given you're churning out thousands of pies a day, you have a buying power that the home cook doesn't have. I'll buy a 1.5kg bag of flour, you'll buy a whole truck at a time, that sort of thing.
> 
> But given that everyone in the supply chain from farm to fork needs to make a profit (otherwise, what's the point of being in the business), you can't deny that it does tend to raise questions. And uncomfortable questions at that.


Indeed, product design specs. Manufacturing operations are the same the world over. The unit operations may change but it's still just making stuff to a standard and getting it out of the door. With regard to the drive to reduce cost, of course it's a pressure. You have the same in engineering manufacture. What's to stop you using cheap steel, what's to stop you using incorrectly machined mechanical parts, what's to stop you using thinner paint? Or course, everyone in vehicle manufacture buys cheap knock off parts and Russian steel that's rusty on arrival, like the (urban myth) Alfasud, don't they? Course they do, anything to make a buck.


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## KnittyNorah (29 May 2021)

winjim said:


> You know that not all nutritionists are charlatans, right? I'm a chemist, that's not a protected title so should I not refer to myself as such?



The entire point is that when a title is not a protected one, _anyone _can refer to themselves or others as a 'whateverist'. There is no way of telling - without further information - whether they are a charlatan, or a reputable professional with appropriate qualifications and ethical standards. 

The issue of the charlatans was sufficiently great that the non-charlatan nutritionists - who were not HCPC-registered dieticians with clinical responsibilities but who had nevertheless a high standard of nutritional knowledge and education - did not wish to be associated with the apparently-ever-increasing numbers of 'nutritionists', Who can blame them? when such characters as Gillian McKeith et al were, and still are, peddling their lies to the gullible, the hopeful and the despairing and spouting erroneous, even dangerous 'advice' on medical conditions. 

A voluntary professional body has been in existence for quite some time to provide consistency of standards, recognition and accreditation of educational institutions and courses, and standards of professional ethics; this body is recognised by the NHS, major companies and so on. If someone states they are a _registered_ nutritionist, or uses the letters ANutr or RNutr you can check the validity of their claim on the Association for Nutrition. The Association appears to prefer to use the terms ' Professional in Nutrition' and 'Registered Nutritionist' to the simpler term.

I have a knee-jerk reaction to people who call themselves 'nutritionists' without any further evidence of actual qualification as I have had experience of having to pick up some of the damage done to other people who have, in all good faith, paid money they could ill-afford to a so-called 'nutritionist' ...


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## KnittyNorah (29 May 2021)

battered said:


> She calls herself a nutritionist. That's her job, that's what it says on her degree certificate(s).



Of course she is more than entitled to attempt, by using the term, to claim it back for those who are professionals in nutrition.
I wish her luck - she is probably not working in circles where the term 'nutritionist' without the qualifier 'registered' has the same connotations of disrepute as it has come to have to some of us.


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## battered (29 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Of course she is more than entitled to attempt, by using the term, to claim it back for those who are professionals in nutrition.
> I wish her luck - she is probably not working in circles where the term 'nutritionist' without the qualifier 'registered' has the same connotations of disrepute as it has come to have to some of us.


Just the World Health Organisation.


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## winjim (29 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> The entire point is that when a title is not a protected one, _anyone _can refer to themselves or others as a 'whateverist'. There is no way of telling - without further information - whether they are a charlatan, or a reputable professional with appropriate qualifications and ethical standards.
> 
> The issue of the charlatans was sufficiently great that the non-charlatan nutritionists - who were not HCPC-registered dieticians with clinical responsibilities but who had nevertheless a high standard of nutritional knowledge and education - did not wish to be associated with the apparently-ever-increasing numbers of 'nutritionists', Who can blame them? when such characters as Gillian McKeith et al were, and still are, peddling their lies to the gullible, the hopeful and the despairing and spouting erroneous, even dangerous 'advice' on medical conditions.
> 
> ...


I get your point but I think we kind of know the difference between a nutritionist and a 'nutritionist'. I'm sure our friend in the food industry is aware of the controversy. Do you take the same position regarding other job titles?


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## Reynard (29 May 2021)

battered said:


> Indeed, product design specs. Manufacturing operations are the same the world over. The unit operations may change but it's still just making stuff to a standard and getting it out of the door. With regard to the drive to reduce cost, of course it's a pressure. You have the same in engineering manufacture. What's to stop you using cheap steel, what's to stop you using incorrectly machined mechanical parts, what's to stop you using thinner paint? Or course, everyone in vehicle manufacture buys cheap knock off parts and Russian steel that's rusty on arrival, like the (urban myth) Alfasud, don't they? Course they do, anything to make a buck.



Which makes me wonder how on earth the supermarkets can, for instance, sell a jar of marmalade for 27p*...  Bearing in mind they also sell jars that retail for over £3.

And the ingredients (and proportion thereof) in those bear very little resemblance to what I turn out at home and have won first prizes for at agricultural and produce shows i.e. I don't use fruit juice, nor do I add citric acid or pectin. And I use 20% less sugar. (Yes, I did look at the labels out of curiosity.)

Using a lot less sugar doesn't affect the keeping quality in the slightest. Yesterday I cracked open a jar of lime marmalade I made back in 2014 and it's absolutely banging. Mind, I do put the lids on my jars when they're very hot, so you get a good vacuum seal on them.

*unless it's a loss-leader

P.S. I know what I make isn't commercially viable purely from an ingredients standpoint - I've discussed this ad infinitum with a friend who used to do something similar to you for Tiptree. She also says people prefer it much sweeter. I find commercial preserves ridiculously sweet to the point of being inedible. All you taste is the sugar. But then sugar is a heck of a lot cheaper than fruit.

Funny that, because I'm always being told that my marmalade is far nicer than what the shops sell.


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## shep (29 May 2021)

Move more and eat less, simples!

I'm a 'statingtheobviousist'.


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## Phaeton (29 May 2021)

shep said:


> Move more and eat less, simples!


If it was only that simple


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## shep (29 May 2021)

I know for some people it isn't but it really should be on the whole.


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## battered (29 May 2021)

shep said:


> I know for some people it isn't but it really should be on the whole.


I've just completed the exercise, it took 5 months. It was just as easy as you say, the only difficulty was the 2 years it took me to decide to tackle it. I only wanted to lose a stone and a half, 10kg, imagine if it had been 3 x that. So all you have to do is eat less than you want to and exercise more than you want to, for a year, year and a half, when are you starting?


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## shep (29 May 2021)

battered said:


> I've just completed the exercise, it took 5 months. It was just as easy as you say, the only difficulty was the 2 years it took me to decide to tackle it. I only wanted to lose a stone and a half, 10kg, imagine if it had been 3 x that. So all you have to do is eat less than you want to and exercise more than you want to, for a year, year and a half, when are you starting?


I'm 5'8" and weigh just over 11st so have my weight and fitness well in control thanks.

By doing exactly what I recommend.


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## Phaeton (29 May 2021)

shep said:


> I'm 5'8" and weigh just over 11st so have my weight and fitness well in control thanks.
> 
> By doing exactly what I recommend.


If it's as simple as you state, I'll send my wife your way so you can also advise her the best way for her to lose 8 stone+


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## neil_merseyside (29 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Of course! Tartiflette is just such brilliant comfort food.


Thing is I want it with Rosti


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## Reynard (29 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> Thing is I want it with Rosti





Although I haven't made rosti in a long time, because once I start on them, I find it so difficult to stop...  It's that crunchy outside and the soft inside that is just so very moreish.


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## battered (30 May 2021)

shep said:


> I'm 5'8" and weigh just over 11st so have my weight and fitness well in control thanks.
> 
> By doing exactly what I recommend.


Of course you have. I hope that you have all your other life goals sorted too. First class honours degree, a few foreign languages, and a board position in a plc. All this stuff is easy, obviously. Anyone who hasn't is just a lazy bastard, frankly.


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## lazybloke (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> There is not a drive to use the cheapest possible ingredients, other than an obvious commercial push to get the right ingredients at the best price


Which is it? Ready meals are not fine dining; if they can use low-cost ingredients, they will.



> Once the spec is agreed, that's it."


The specification is only to ensure a consistent quality of product, and not necessarily a high quality. The specification at the budget end of the market will obviously differ from a premium product.

However, no matter how good the original ready meal is, it still needs reheating. 
This step always affects flavour, texture, water content, nutritional values, etc - so never as good as a freshly cooked meal.



> Compliance with these specifications is inspected by the retailers and regulatory bodies, like the TSO and EHO


I wasn't suggesting compliance issues.



> If I could I'd invite you to the factories and show you. But you wouldn't come


I love going into factories and seeing how things are mechanised, but I go elsewhere to learn how to cook



> , because you want to remain sure in your belief that manufacured foods use "reformed leftovers".


I'll withdraw the 'leftovers' term because it can be misunderstood.
Use of reformed ingredients cannot be denied however.


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## shep (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> Of course you have. I hope that you have all your other life goals sorted too. First class honours degree, a few foreign languages, and a board position in a plc. All this stuff is easy, obviously. Anyone who hasn't is just a lazy bastard, frankly.


If you say so pal, think you're off on a tangent here?


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## shep (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> Of course you have. I hope that you have all your other life goals sorted too. First class honours degree, a few foreign languages, and a board position in a plc. All this stuff is easy, obviously. Anyone who hasn't is just a lazy bastard, frankly.





shep said:


> Move more and eat less, simples!
> 
> I'm a 'statingtheobviousist'.


What I said was in response to the so called 'nutritionist ' claim so somewhat sarcastically but if it's touched a nerve I apologise.


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## battered (30 May 2021)

shep said:


> What I said was in response to the so called 'nutritionist ' claim so somewhat sarcastically but if it's touched a nerve I apologise.


Thanks. The point is that it's rather easy to assume that one's successes are equally accessible to others. If you heard Marcus Rashford say "I came out of a poor area in Manchester, kicked a football about a bit, now I'm a millionaire and anyone who can't be bothered putting in the effort to do the same can get in the sea. Peasants" then you'd be the first to call him an idiot. It doesn't advance the discussion.


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## battered (30 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Which is it? Ready meals are not fine dining; if they can use low-cost ingredients, they will.
> 
> 
> The specification is only to ensure a consistent quality of product, and not necessarily a high quality. The specification at the budget end of the market will obviously differ from a premium product.
> ...


You are tarring everyone with the same brush. You wouldn't say "this Chinese scrap in Poundland is junk, Toyota? It's the same junk from the far East" and it holds no water for food either.


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## battered (30 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Which makes me wonder how on earth the supermarkets can, for instance, sell a jar of marmalade for 27p*...  Bearing in mind they also sell jars that retail for over £3.
> 
> And the ingredients (and proportion thereof) in those bear very little resemblance to what I turn out at home and have won first prizes for at agricultural and produce shows i.e. I don't use fruit juice, nor do I add citric acid or pectin. And I use 20% less sugar. (Yes, I did look at the labels out of curiosity.)
> 
> ...


The 27p range is interesting. Nobody makes money on it. All the supermarkets have to have it, they go to great lengths to make it as unattractive as possible. Look at the packaging, the blue and white "label of shame" could be made to look attractive but that's the last thing they want. Manufacturer s make the 27p range because they are forced to bid for a tranche of business. If you want the core business then you need to take on X volume of the 27p tut.

Technically the 27p range can be interesting because you are trying to make a bit of orange juice, sugar and pectin resemble marmalade, it has to be stable, safe and meet regulatory standards. Sometimes an interesting challenge. Not always though, I've a friend who's a wine maker. When he gets to the Eu 1.25 Spanish table wine he doesn't bother tasting it. It's legally wine, the lab results are in spec, done. Pack it. "Oh but it's not as good as 1996 Chateau Lafite" . No, it's not. What do you expect for Eu 1.25?


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## Julia9054 (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> When he gets to the Eu 1.25 Spanish table wine he doesn't bother tasting it. It's legally wine, the lab results are in spec, done. Pack it. "Oh but it's not as good as 1996 Chateau Lafite" . No, it's not. What do you expect for Eu 1.25?


I like wine but often wonder at what price point would a peasant like me cease to be able to taste the increasing quality (ditto increasingly expensive bicycles)


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## winjim (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> The 27p range is interesting. Nobody makes money on it. All the supermarkets have to have it, they go to great lengths to make it as unattractive as possible. Look at the packaging, the blue and white "label of shame" could be made to look attractive but that's the last thing they want. Manufacturer s make the 27p range because they are forced to bid for a tranche of business. If you want the core business then you need to take on X volume of the 27p tut.
> 
> Technically the 27p range can be interesting because you are trying to make a bit of orange juice, sugar and pectin resemble marmalade, it has to be stable, safe and meet regulatory standards. Sometimes an interesting challenge. Not always though, I've a friend who's a wine maker. When he gets to the Eu 1.25 Spanish table wine he doesn't bother tasting it. It's legally wine, the lab results are in spec, done. Pack it. "Oh but it's not as good as 1996 Chateau Lafite" . No, it's not. What do you expect for Eu 1.25?


I remember seeing somewhere that the tax and duty on a bottle of wine is about a fiver, so subtract that from the cost of the bottle and that's what the wine itself is worth.

Edit: the tax, obviously is progressive but the duty is flat I think. Anyway, for cheapish wine, say £5-10 it's about right?


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## Blue Hills (30 May 2021)

winjim said:


> I remember seeing somewhere that the tax and duty on a bottle of wine is about a fiver, so subtract that from the cost of the bottle and that's what the wine itself is worth.


well rather depends on the price of the bottle. You can get lots of wine for under a fiver - are you saying there's some hidden charity paying to put wine in folks' hands?


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## winjim (30 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> well rather depends on the price of the bottle. You can get lots of wine for under a fiver - are you saying there's some hidden charity paying to put wine in folks' hands?


I'd have to look it up properly, and of course duty rates may have changed by now but the gist of it was 'don't buy wine for under a fiver'.


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## winjim (30 May 2021)

Here we go, the actual wine in a £5 bottle is worth about 30p


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## lazybloke (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> You are tarring everyone with the same brush. You wouldn't say "this Chinese scrap in Poundland is junk, Toyota? It's the same junk from the far East" and it holds no water for food either.


No, I recognised the difference market sectors.


Let me take a step back... I'm far from a healthy food fanatic, but my immediate family has one food intolerance and one food allergy, so obviously I care about food quality, and there's not always enough information on prepacked food to make an informed choice. Ingredients and allergens are well labelled, but there's far less information about provenance, quality and cooking methods .

That doesn't stop me eating occasional junk food, and i'm partial to snacks, cakes and a bit of booze. It's precisely because of those weaknesses that I strive for healthier meals - that's how I achieve a healthy balance.

Given that this is a thread about obesity, I'll come back to topic with the thought that if more people took an interest in cooking their own food and not making lazy choices, perhaps the nation could be healthier. This doesn't exclude ready meals, but if a person is consistently lazy with their food choices then they are unlikely to be eating healthily.


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## KnittyNorah (30 May 2021)

winjim said:


> I get your point but I think we kind of know the difference between a nutritionist and a 'nutritionist'. I'm sure our friend in the food industry is aware of the controversy. Do you take the same position regarding other job titles?



Yes I do, when there is evidence that significant numbers of persons claiming to hold titles which appear, to many laymen, to carry medically-associated professional status, are less than honest and open about their qualifications and experience, and peddle dangerous nonsense with no medical or scientific evidence to people who may well be ill and in need of advice from qualified medical and/or associated professionals.

Fortunately the Professional Standards Authority for Health and Social Care, as well as overseeing the bodies for professions which must by law be regulated, also assesses and accredits organisations that register the many health and social care practitioners who are not regulated by law. Their remit covers a wide range of professions, some central to the operation of the NHS and some, frankly, on the very boundaries of what might be considered 'health or social care'. Nevertheless, even those on the boundaries can - and should - be expected to act in an ethical manner and the Authority will suspend or remove accreditation from bodies which show themselves to be remiss in the registration and regulation of their members. 

HOWEVER what I say about accreditation, protected titles and professions registered by law _only_ applies in the UK so when conversing internationally, one must be aware that different terms are used and translation is variable, different regulations apply and the same term is often understood differently.


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## battered (30 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Given that this is a thread about obesity, I'll come back to topic with the thought that if more people took an interest in cooking their own food and not making lazy choices, perhaps the nation could be healthier. This doesn't exclude ready meals, but if a person is consistently lazy with their food choices then they are unlikely to be eating healthily.


This much goes without saying, we were talking about interest, engagement and effort 30 pages back. Substitute "food choices" above for drink, gambling, sex, exercise, education, work, it's still true. Now fix it. We all know the solution isn't about whether I specify marge or butter in the pastry for a meat pie.


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## BoldonLad (30 May 2021)

winjim said:


> Here we go, the actual wine in a £5 bottle is worth about 30p
> 
> 
> View attachment 591251



Sounds about right. Wine in France or Spain, for example, is much cheaper than here, presumably because the taxation is less? I wonder, do they have an alcohol / drink problem?


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## battered (30 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Sounds about right. Wine in France or Spain, for example, is much cheaper than here, presumably because the taxation is less? I wonder, do they have an alcohol / drink problem?


Unfortunately, yes. They do. It's not about price.


----------



## battered (30 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> No, I recognised the difference market sectors.
> 
> 
> Let me take a step back... I'm far from a healthy food fanatic, but my immediate family has one food intolerance and one food allergy, so obviously I care about food quality, and there's not always enough information on prepacked food to make an informed choice. Ingredients and allergens are well labelled, but there's far less information about provenance, quality and cooking methods .
> ...


I'm surprised that you think there is too little information about provenance. That's one area the retailers push. Obviously not in the 29p range, but upmar ket for sure. Cooking methods - aren't they obvious? What would you like to see, and how presented?


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## BoldonLad (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> Unfortunately, yes. They do. It's not about price.



I was being facetious. Having spent 5 months each year in France/Spain, for the past 14 years, cannot say I have noticed excessive drunkeness. But, I do hail from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, so, the bar (pun intended) may be set artificially high


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## battered (30 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> I was being facetious. Having spent 5 months each year in France/Spain, for the past 14 years, cannot say I have noticed excessive drunkeness. But, I do hail from Newcastle-upon-Tyne, so, the bar (pun intended) may be set artificially high


They do have a different drinking culture. Destination drinking is an alien concept to them. I spent 3 years in France, and they drink very often, but very little. So much so that there is a small measure of beer available, a "galopin". This is one half of a "demi". A demi is 250 ml, a galopin 125ml. Of beer? There's more than that soaked into the bar towel in the average bar in the Bigg market!


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## lazybloke (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> I'm surprised that you think there is too little information about provenance. That's one area the retailers push. Obviously not in the 29p range, but upmar ket for sure. Cooking methods - aren't they obvious? What would you like to see, and how presented?


I'd like to know the whole story of how how food reaches my plate, that's all. Not enough space on a label to provide that info.


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

battered said:


> The 27p range is interesting. Nobody makes money on it. All the supermarkets have to have it, they go to great lengths to make it as unattractive as possible. Look at the packaging, the blue and white "label of shame" could be made to look attractive but that's the last thing they want. Manufacturer s make the 27p range because they are forced to bid for a tranche of business. If you want the core business then you need to take on X volume of the 27p tut.
> 
> Technically the 27p range can be interesting because you are trying to make a bit of orange juice, sugar and pectin resemble marmalade, it has to be stable, safe and meet regulatory standards. Sometimes an interesting challenge. Not always though, I've a friend who's a wine maker. When he gets to the Eu 1.25 Spanish table wine he doesn't bother tasting it. It's legally wine, the lab results are in spec, done. Pack it. "Oh but it's not as good as 1996 Chateau Lafite" . No, it's not. What do you expect for Eu 1.25?



That's what I figured about not making money, although the old "value" labels actually bit the dust at least a couple of years ago. Tesco rebranded the range to bring it into line with the style of packaging you get in Lidl and Aldi. So it's no longer immediately obvious that it's a value product. I keep meaning to buy a jar out of curiosity, just to try like, but always end up chickening out. I hate throwing food away, and if I don't like it, well... Even if it's only 27p, it's still food that's been thrown away...

The same must therefore be true about the other "value" prepared food as well. I get the fact that it's challenging to produce something recognizable from a much more limited range of ingredients - you're not going to put best butter in something that's going to sell at a loss after all - but some of the other posters have raised valid points about the quality of some of those ingredients. There was an "Inside the Factory" that looked at sausages - I think they were at a place that made the Heck ones. If memory serves, they used the premium cuts of shoulder; the trimmings, fat and skin etc were boxed up and sent on to another place that made much cheaper sausages.

Value rage fruit & veg OTOH - yes, I do buy it, and plenty of it. I don't care if they're big, small, wonky etc. Fresh produce is fresh produce after all. It's cheaper because typically it doesn't meet the standards for size and aesthetics. And some of the fruit isn't quite as sweet as what's available in the more expensive ranges.

And re the wine - I'm teetotal, so can't comment, but I'd say the same about chocolate. Cadbury's dairy milk has 20% cocoa solids in it - I understand that's the legal minimum for it to be called chocolate. And that stuff isn't even on the same planet as the Green & Black milk chocolate, which either has 32% or 35% depending on which one you get. (The one with the Anglesey sea salt in is absolutely lush, btw...)


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Given that this is a thread about obesity, I'll come back to topic with the thought that if more people took an interest in cooking their own food and not making lazy choices, perhaps the nation could be healthier. This doesn't exclude ready meals, but if a person is consistently lazy with their food choices then they are unlikely to be eating healthily.



There's definitely been a loss of cooking skills in the home, and I'd imagine it correlates pretty well with the rise of convenience food - and the microwave. I don't think we can blame Delia Smith's "How to Cheat at Cooking" for this one.

Education is the key here, as well as working out why, with all the labour-saving gadgetry we have, are people so time poor?

I despair at the array of pre-chopped and peeled fruit and veg on the supermarket shelves. Chopped onion, sliced peppers, carrot batons, peeled potatoes, shredded lettuce, those diddy little packs with a few slices of apple and half a dozen grapes in, never mind things like pre-grated cheese... 

But if the market didn't see a need for this sort of thing, it wouldn't be available. Or is it just a solution looking for a problem?


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

lazybloke said:


> I'll withdraw the 'leftovers' term because it can be misunderstood.
> Use of reformed ingredients cannot be denied however.



A lot of ham is reformed - even some of the more poncy stuff, not just those convenient square slices one puts in sandwiches. I think they're just cuts that are squeezed together, probably with something starchy, to make sure they stay squeezed together.

Would be more convenient if pigs had square legs, no?


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## Blue Hills (30 May 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Sounds about right. Wine in France or Spain, for example, is much cheaper than here, presumably because the taxation is less? I wonder, do they have an alcohol / drink problem?


significantly less tax in italy - some of the best wine I've ever drunk was 2.30 euros a litre out of a big drum. 15 per cent or higher as well. In truth I think it best to drink beer in the UK.


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## winjim (30 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> There's definitely been a loss of cooking skills in the home, and I'd imagine it correlates pretty well with the rise of convenience food - and the microwave. I don't think we can blame Delia Smith's "How to Cheat at Cooking" for this one.
> 
> Education is the key here, as well as working out why, with all the labour-saving gadgetry we have, are people so time poor?
> 
> ...


I think pre-prepared veg is like electronic shifting. It could be really useful for people with limited dexterity.


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## Julia9054 (30 May 2021)

winjim said:


> I think pre-prepared veg is like electronic shifting. It could be really useful for people with limited dexterity.


Or those who can’t be arsed chopping veg. It’s really not some kind of moral failing to get someone else to do the most boring bits of cooking a meal for you.


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## Blue Hills (30 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Or those who can’t be arsed chopping veg. It’s really not some kind of moral failing to get someone else to do the most boring bits of cooking a meal for you.


well I rather wonder what sort of cooking someone might be doing who can't be arsed to chop a vegetable.
Pre-chopped stuff is of course already on an accelerated path to going off.


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## winjim (30 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Or those who can’t be arsed chopping veg. It’s really not some kind of moral failing to get someone else to do the most boring bits of cooking a meal for you.


That's what commis chefs do after all.


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## Julia9054 (30 May 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> well I rather wonder what sort of cooking someone might be doing who can't be arsed to chop a vegetable.
> Pre-chopped stuff is of course already on an accelerated path to going off.


Someone who has had a long day at work but wants to eat something a bit nicer than a pre prepared meal that you bang in the microwave (also not a moral failing imo)
I can cook but find it tedious. I am fortunate to be married to someone who loves it and is extremely good at it. If he was no longer around, Im really not sure whether my love of good food or my dislike of cooking would win out.


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## winjim (30 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> Someone who has had a long day at work but wants to eat something a bit nicer than a pre prepared meal that you bang in the microwave (also not a moral failing imo)
> I can cook but find it tedious. I am fortunate to be married to someone who loves it and is extremely good at it. If he was no longer around, Im really not sure whether my love of good food or my dislike of cooking would win out.


I only cook well when I'm cooking for someone else. When I'm on my own I eat like crap and left to my own devices would probably survive on nothing but bowls of cereal. I love to cook but I think I need that affirmation of someone appreciating what I've made.


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

Hmmm, pre-chopped veggies are not a moral failing per se.

But it *is* a very efficient way of throwing money away unnecessarily...

£1 for 200g of chopped onion that doesn't keep terribly well in the fridge.

Whole onions are 85p per kilo.


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## KnittyNorah (30 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> I despair at the array of pre-chopped and peeled fruit and veg on the supermarket shelves. Chopped onion, sliced peppers, carrot batons, peeled potatoes, shredded lettuce, those diddy little packs with a few slices of apple and half a dozen grapes in, never mind things like pre-grated cheese...
> 
> But if the market didn't see a need for this sort of thing, it wouldn't be available. Or is it just a solution looking for a problem?



Bags of frozen chopped onions and similar was a godsend to me over the years my eyesight was so very bad - it meant I could still have 'fresh' (albeit frozen - but certainly fresher than if it has been in my veg cupboard for an unknown length of time …) food. Ready grated cheese likewise - it helped prevent me grating my fingers and my knuckles! The prepared frozen veg continues to be extremely useful as a single person who has effectively been forbidden to cook for others during the pandemic - there is far less waste than when buying eg a net of onions and only using a part of one, wanting just a few strips of pepper, etc. I do see the point of the bags of prepared mixed salad leaves, too - it would be impractical for me to buy a couple of different lettuces, a bunch of watercress, a bunch of rocket and so on, just to have a mixed green salad - a small bag of mixed leaves is a useful, cheaper and less-wasteful option.

That said, I totally agree with you about some things - what is the point of frozen baked potatoes, for instance? However, a frozen baked potato - with some cheese - ready-grated from a packet maybe? - followed by one of the diddy little packs with three cubes of mango, two each of three different types of melon, and five grapes, will be a far better option than a packet of reformed potato thingamajigs with artificial colourings and cheese 'flavouring' followed by a 'fruit flavoured' ready-made shelf-stable single-serving jelly...

I think many - not all - of the things you mention are solutions to the changes in lifestyle common today - more people living in single-person households, more people living in tiny residences with fewer facilities and/or less space for cooking, more people with long, long hours at work and commuting for whom convenience and short preparation time is key, and more people with handicaps, disabilities and other 'problems' living independently in the community. All of those people like, want, and in some cases actively _need _some of the aforementioned items.


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## Julia9054 (30 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm, pre-chopped veggies are not a moral failing per se.
> 
> But it *is* a very efficient way of throwing money away unnecessarily...
> 
> ...


For some people, time and effort saved is more important than money.
I can certainly think of lots of things - from using my lbs for repairs to going to a beautician - that I pay for that would be cheaper to do for myself


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## KnittyNorah (30 May 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> I can cook but find it tedious.


I am told I am a very good cook, but I too find it tedious in the extreme. I do enjoy baking, though, and pickling and things like that. In a different life, I had a houseboy who could be instructed to do the most tedious of the tasks - peeling, chopping, washing, cleaning up etc - which removed a great deal of the tediousness from it.



Julia9054 said:


> Im really not sure whether my love of good food or my dislike of cooking would win out.


I've found ways to still eat well without doing very much cooking at all. It helps that I'm virtually vegetarian (in reality pescatarian) now, so have little yearning for the meaty dishes which seem to take more effort _and_ leave more mess behind.


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

Fair game @KnittyNorah & @Julia9054 

I can't argue with points well-made. A friend of mine who cares for her disabled husband uses a lot of the frozen veg, and I totally get that. It's good value for money as there's no waste - because it's frozen.

Which is why I never mentioned the frozen stuff. It's the fresh stuff that really frustrates me.

Thing is, I see the other side of that as a yellow stickerer. Quite often it's the last things left of an evening, and invariably well past its best and headed straight to the bin. And it's still inside the supermarket, still able to be legally sold. The local food project that the above-mentioned friend volunteers for won't take it - they prefer stuff with a longer shelf life.

I love cooking. It's one of my favourite things to do. Only two of us here, so I do have to watch quantities when buying. But one thing I will do is batch cook, which a) uses up a bigger quantity of ingredients and b) there's always something tasty in the fridge to warm up and eat.


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## KnittyNorah (30 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Fair game @KnittyNorah & @Julia9054
> 
> I can't argue with points well-made. A friend of mine who cares for her disabled husband uses a lot of the frozen veg, and I totally get that. It's good value for money as there's no waste - because it's frozen.
> 
> ...



It distresses me the way that food banks so often refuse fresh food (I don't mean slimy salad veg). I know that often it is because they don't have the storage and distribution facilities for anything other than tinned and packet foodstuffs, and when they refuse for that reason, I can't fault them. But when I still lived in the village and had a big allotment, I was one of the instigators of a project to distribute our over-production. After we'd given away as much as we could in the village and set up a 'free produce stand' outside the village shop (which didn't sell any fruit or veggies, so they were happy to have it there) with a box for voluntary donations, we then explored the possibilities of giving the excess to a food bank in the nearest town, but were met with the strangest sort of refusals - 'we don't know where it has come from' , 'it's got earth on it' and 'it's not packaged'. 
We did eventually find a good home for it all - the langar at the gurdwara in a nearby city - and lasting friendships were made. But it was a bit of an eye-opener to us all that the foodbank did not want good, fresh, locally-grown fruit and veggies. We could probably have sold it to Booth's (the Waitrose of the North, but better) who were always having 'locally grown' promotions!


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## neil_merseyside (30 May 2021)

Good frozen veg is 2 hrs old, fresh is anyone's guess, same for fish generally, though I do prefer to see the fish I buy - so I can be misty eyed about buying fresh fish, rather than buying misty eyed fish...


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> It distresses me the way that food banks so often refuse fresh food (I don't mean slimy salad veg). I know that often it is because they don't have the storage and distribution facilities for anything other than tinned and packet foodstuffs, and when they refuse for that reason, I can't fault them. But when I still lived in the village and had a big allotment, I was one of the instigators of a project to distribute our over-production. After we'd given away as much as we could in the village and set up a 'free produce stand' outside the village shop (which didn't sell any fruit or veggies, so they were happy to have it there) with a box for voluntary donations, we then explored the possibilities of giving the excess to a food bank in the nearest town, but were met with the strangest sort of refusals - 'we don't know where it has come from' , 'it's got earth on it' and 'it's not packaged'.
> We did eventually find a good home for it all - the langar at the gurdwara in a nearby city - and lasting friendships were made. But it was a bit of an eye-opener to us all that the foodbank did not want good, fresh, locally-grown fruit and veggies. We could probably have sold it to Booth's (the Waitrose of the North, but better) who were always having 'locally grown' promotions!



Fortunately, the one my friend volunteers for does take fresh produce.  One of the shops involved in the project is actually a local farm shop that also has a bakery, it's not just the big retailers who are contributing. The project delivers food boxes (very healthy by food bank standards) and runs a community larder similar to your produce stall, where anyone in the village can avail themselves of what's there in return for a donation, regardless of their means.

In urban areas, I think we're back to the disconnect between people and food. Can they cook it, do they have the means to cook it, that sort of thing. Nothing wrong with muddy potatoes IMHO (see, we're back to tatties again!) as they do keep longer than the washed ones.

Sikh temples are great places for that sort of thing - they do a heck of a lot for their local community, including providing meals regardless of your faith or means etc. And it's all vegetarian. Have to say, that sort of food really floats my boat.


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## Reynard (30 May 2021)

neil_merseyside said:


> ... I do prefer to see the fish I buy - so I can be misty eyed about buying fresh fish, rather than buying misty eyed fish...



I have a pair of furry quality control officers for that.


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## KnittyNorah (31 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> In urban areas, I think we're back to the disconnect between people and food. Can they cook it, do they have the means to cook it, that sort of thing. Nothing wrong with muddy potatoes IMHO (see, we're back to tatties again!) as they do keep longer than the washed ones.


Yes there's definitely a disconnect - and not just at the kitchen stage; there's even more of a disconnect earlier in the process. There has been for a long time; it's really not a recent thing at all.
When I was a student, in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I used to work in the 'equine industry' in the summer holidays. Pay wasn't much good, but food and accommodation were provided and I could often take my own horse along for free. One year I got quite a decent job - it paid about £10/week with food and accommodation provided, at a large school 'outdoor activity holiday centre' in the Brecon Beacons which offered a variety of activities, mainly sports - pony-trekking, sailing, canoeing, climbing, hill-walking etc - and one of the activities that started being offered during the summer I worked there was a half-day visit to a local working farm. There was always a great deal of horror and refusal of food - even to the extent that the menu had to be changed around and the groups that had been on the farm visit got fish fingers and chips, rather than anything recognisably eggy, milky or vegetable - because the kids had suddenly realised, to their unutterable horror, that eggs came out of hen's bums, milk came from 'cows t!ttie$' and that veggies were either 'covered with dirt and worms' or had 'creepy-crawlies and flies and things on them'. Good thing there was no mention of bacon or sausages ...

A neighbour of mine, who anyone would think of as a well-educated intelligent person, was simply horrified one day when my next-door neighbour, who is head gardener on a large private estate, had a few fat woodpigeons and a pheasant he'd been given by the gamekeeper, and he'd laid them out on the bonnet of his car while he'd sorted out somewhere to clean, pluck and/or hang them. She kept saying 'but Lizzie they're birds! Wild birds! With all their beautiful feathers - birds! Do you think he's going to _eat _them?'
And I said 'W, you eat chicken don't you?'
'Yes' she answered 'But what's that got to do with it?'
'Chickens are birds, too. Very pretty, some of them are...'
'Oh ...'


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## Reynard (31 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Yes there's definitely a disconnect - and not just at the kitchen stage; there's even more of a disconnect earlier in the process. There has been for a long time; it's really not a recent thing at all.
> When I was a student, in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I used to work in the 'equine industry' in the summer holidays. Pay wasn't much good, but food and accommodation were provided and I could often take my own horse along for free. One year I got quite a decent job - it paid about £10/week with food and accommodation provided, at a large school 'outdoor activity holiday centre' in the Brecon Beacons which offered a variety of activities, mainly sports - pony-trekking, sailing, canoeing, climbing, hill-walking etc - and one of the activities that started being offered during the summer I worked there was a half-day visit to a local working farm. There was always a great deal of horror and refusal of food - even to the extent that the menu had to be changed around and the groups that had been on the farm visit got fish fingers and chips, rather than anything recognisably eggy, milky or vegetable - because the kids had suddenly realised, to their unutterable horror, that eggs came out of hen's bums, milk came from 'cows t!ttie$' and that veggies were either 'covered with dirt and worms' or had 'creepy-crawlies and flies and things on them'. Good thing there was no mention of bacon or sausages ...
> 
> A neighbour of mine, who anyone would think of as a well-educated intelligent person, was simply horrified one day when my next-door neighbour, who is head gardener on a large private estate, had a few fat woodpigeons and a pheasant he'd been given by the gamekeeper, and he'd laid them out on the bonnet of his car while he'd sorted out somewhere to clean, pluck and/or hang them. She kept saying 'but Lizzie they're birds! Wild birds! With all their beautiful feathers - birds! Do you think he's going to _eat _them?'
> ...



Oh my Sainted Aunt!!!  I'm laughing, but...

You're right though, it's not a recent thing and it has become endemic. Everything comes so neatly packaged and prepared that it's almost convenient to lose sight of where things came from and what they're actually made of.

Actually, people's reaction to offal does make me chuckle... I'm rather partial to kidneys (especially with bacon) myself.


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## Blue Hills (31 May 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> That could be a disaster for cycling.
> 
> No Gregg's. No service station pasties. No Mars Bars. No fig rolls or Jaffa cakes. You could take sandwiches, but I guess only home baked sourdough would be allowed.


fair point - i was really talking about pre-prepared meals. Lidl fig rolls get me through a fair few rides, plus in extremis lidl wine gums. Main source of my energy on rides is my homemade cycle snack.


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## Blue Hills (31 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm, pre-chopped veggies are not a moral failing per se.
> 
> But it *is* a very efficient way of throwing money away unnecessarily...
> 
> ...


yep quite - full veg keeps for a long time in a fridge if you keep it cooler. Which of course means that it is very hard to run out of veg.
There was also of course, not to my great surprise, the recent health scare/warning on bagged mixed veg.


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## Blue Hills (31 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I am told I am a very good cook, but I too find it tedious in the extreme.


maybe your "cooking" is more complicated than mine. I'm not one for involved recipes except on special occasions - my basic idea is that if it takes longer than 20 minutes to cook all in from initial chopping to eating it probably isn't worth eating. I listen to the radio at the same time.


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## Blue Hills (31 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> When I was a student, in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I used to work in the 'equine industry' in the summer holidays. Pay wasn't because the kids had suddenly realised, to their unutterable horror, that eggs came out of hen's bums, milk came from 'cows t!ttie$' and that veggies were either 'covered with dirt and worms' or had 'creepy-crawlies and flies and things on them'.


A good friend of mine was genuinely horrified to find that I bought much of my veg from london street markets rather than the supermarket. "but it's dirty" he said - wasn't entirely sure that he was serious for a while to be honest. That would have been in a period when the major supermarkets, sainsburys etc, charged notoriously high prices for Veg.


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## Randomnerd (31 May 2021)

Apologies for skimming the last dozen or so pages, chaps and chapesses. The first twenty-odd were very interesting and informative.

Neuro-divergent brains - I’m a recent initiate to that tribe - react very differently to appetites than do neuro-typical brains. Others have posted interesting stuff about this. Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. And more dopamine please. And those brains, and the people who own them, have no control over that. Or much less than a “normal” brain would have.

As an aside, there is over-use of the word “normal”, wherever we go. Honestly, I never am sure what it means. Surely everything human is on a scale? How can one decide what is right in the middle, or correct, or acceptable? My new mantra is “beware those who call things _normal_”. Your maths dudes would probably use words like “mean” and “median” and ”average”. I’ll go away and summon up my inner Tim Hartford and learn how to do it all better myself.

If you do have real difficulty with maintaining a healthy weight range, or a weight range with which you are okay, do have a think about your own potential neuro-divergence. There may be a causal link. Of the five or so percent of the adult population with neurological disorder, only ten percent of those people are ever diagnosed and treated. A sad and shameful statistic.

Of course I’m not trying to say that many or most people overweight have a neurological disorder. Modern food systems are obese: they are messed up, engorged monsters. Modern mass produced food is obese: cheap and plentiful. Modern living is obese: sedentary, push-button and automated. Gratification is under constant fingertip control.

Idly, I sometimes wonder at the apathy which abounds all around this engrained health challenge. Witness this last couple of years for me:

My “fighting“ weight - at my very best I am a stocky barrel of gristle, lard and sinew from a life wrangling wood and stone - is fourteen stones. At 5’10“ that probably has my BMI at 27. My “capitulating and trying to outrun flabbiness” weight is sixteen stones - locked woods gates during the pandemic; farms and domestic gardens closed to all-comers; the panic of possible eviction for over a year; unmedicated. That probably would mean my heart might pop at the next axe-swing or hammer blow this season.

Fortunately, I can fight my own corner, get access finally to help re neurological challenges etc, as spelled out in the Personals. And, despite all other obstacles, I can still get out into nature to move about, or ride my bike, or take on more physical work as I get stronger.

Still, my GP and the surgery more widely are not clambering over one another to offer help for fat-fighting. The offers are oblique. I can only speak for myself, and the few other middle aged men I know locally who variously struggle to keep to a healthy weight: help is probably there, but it is all rather passive.

Six years ago I ran a woodcraft programme for young people in Sheffield. We built an outdoor gym to entertain those clients, who were at risk of leaving school with no qualifications. The wood gym was a real success. Ropes, pulleys, wooden weights, wooden press bench, drag a bag of sand uphill. Chin up branch. The group designed most of it. Great stuff. Hours of fun and competition and engagement and calorie burning.

Mentioned it to my GP In passing, and he tried to get a meeting with the local health pyramid, whatever that is. And he tried and he tried, and in the end we just gave up. He was right into getting something off the ground locally for people recovering from operations or for people who needed to be motivated to walk and exercise. But, the wheels just turned so slowly, we all got sick of waiting and moved on.

Food is also a very nuanced political issue. Farming practices need to change worldwide, but definitely in the UK. We are too reliant on the old habit of importing and relying on the commonwealth, and the danger is that this will deepen as we move away from Europe to new food market deals. A recent detailed study by some very clever French scientists has concluded that the UK can sustain itself in food production if it moves to a more diverse, modern use of land, and if people are encouraged to change how they consume. All bets are off that the Tories will bring about anything radical that might upset Big Agric.

Poor people have far less access to high nutrition foods, and have a much narrower choice and less buying power toward eating healthily. They are less mobile, less informed, less served. 

In the last five years I’ve worked in schools in areas of high deprivation where it is not unusual for children to be sent to school with mouldy bread for their sandwiches. Projects where young people are asked to bring food for lunch outdoors must always be underpinned with a food budget for those who have nothing to bring. If we can, we ensure that food is part of the offer, otherwise shame and embarrassment often ensue for those without.

I sell spoons and wooden things for the kitchen at a local food circle, where local producers all gather to sell their wares within a 25 mile radius of the city. Small farms and micro growers, and little makers like me, all cranking in on bikes or sharing lifts. But the clientele are still almost all middle class, despite the site being slap bang in the poorest part of the city. No matter, you just have to keep pressing on, and trying to aim for change. 

We all need to play our part in this. We ought to stop pouring our cash down the necks of the absurdly obese multi-nationals running our food production and instead feed to healthy plumpness the local, the real, the small, the sustainable growers, makers, producers.


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## KnittyNorah (31 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Oh my Sainted Aunt!!!  I'm laughing, but...
> 
> You're right though, it's not a recent thing and it has become endemic. Everything comes so neatly packaged and prepared that it's almost convenient to lose sight of where things came from and what they're actually made of.
> 
> Actually, people's reaction to offal does make me chuckle... I'm rather partial to kidneys (especially with bacon) myself.



Not overly fond of kidneys tbh - but show me some liver, any liver ... mmmmmmm!


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## PaulSB (31 May 2021)

@Randomnerd - thank you. Excellent post.


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## Reynard (31 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Not overly fond of kidneys tbh - but show me some liver, any liver ... mmmmmmm!



Oooh yes, chicken livers!!!


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## KnittyNorah (31 May 2021)

Reynard said:


> Oooh yes, chicken livers!!!


Lambs liver, very thinly sliced with a razor-sharp knife (easiest when semi-thawed/semi-frozen, if you're not a butcher by trade or don't have serious kitchen knife skills) and barely passed under (or over) a VERY hot grill, or bbq coals, so that it's only just coked and still juicy - although never bloody - in the centre. Ox liver, sliced and soaked overnight in yoghurt or milk. The resulting liquid then given to any deserving dog or cat in the vicinity, and the now-somewhat tenderised, and much milder-flavoured, liver cooked s_lowly_ until tender, with lots of onions and some chopped bacon. Mushrooms, too. Serve with plain , floury, mashed potatoes to soak up all that delicious thick gravy, and whatever other vegetable you like.

You know, since becoming vegetarian, I've never missed steak or mince or chops, or even a roast - but I do miss liver!


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## Reynard (31 May 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Lambs liver, very thinly sliced with a razor-sharp knife (easiest when semi-thawed/semi-frozen, if you're not a butcher by trade or don't have serious kitchen knife skills) and barely passed under (or over) a VERY hot grill, or bbq coals, so that it's only just coked and still juicy - although never bloody - in the centre. Ox liver, sliced and soaked overnight in yoghurt or milk. The resulting liquid then given to any deserving dog or cat in the vicinity, and the now-somewhat tenderised, and much milder-flavoured, liver cooked s_lowly_ until tender, with lots of onions and some chopped bacon. Mushrooms, too. Serve with plain , floury, mashed potatoes to soak up all that delicious thick gravy, and whatever other vegetable you like.
> 
> You know, since becoming vegetarian, I've never missed steak or mince or chops, or even a roast - but I do miss liver!



I struggle with lamb or ox liver sometimes because the flavour is quite strong - hence a fondness for chicken livers, but I do have a recipe for liver cooked with orange, which is very nice.

Have to say, I do eat a lot less meat than I used to - I'd much rather have a little of a really *good* piece of meat and enjoy it. Although good doesn't necessarily mean expensive, just perhaps a less desirable cut. But if you know what to do with it, you still end up with something tasty. 

If I had to be entirely truthful, I do prefer fish to meat, and I eat a lot of vegetarian food as well. For things like lasagna, cannelloni, chilli, curry etc, I actually prefer the veggie version. 

What I don't get is how some of my friends can shovel an 8oz (or even bigger!) steak down the hatch, when the same piece will do me for two main meals, with some left over for a lunchtime sandwich.


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## KnittyNorah (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I struggle with lamb or ox liver sometimes because the flavour is quite strong - hence a fondness for chicken livers, but I do have a recipe for liver cooked with orange, which is very nice.


Best way to make the flavour milder is a good long soak (overnight or longer) in milk or yoghurt. Mum always used milk, I use either according to availability. I'd always loved liver as a child and younger teenager and when I first came across it - probably in a student canteen, I can't really remember - I was horrified at the 'strength' of its flavour - and its chewiness!


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## BoldonLad (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm, pre-chopped veggies are not a moral failing per se.
> 
> But it *is* a very efficient way of throwing money away unnecessarily...
> 
> ...



Quite.


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## matticus (1 Jun 2021)

Every day I see this thread and think
"Jeez, _another _4 pages arguing about lazy stupid obese people. What the heck???"
... and then I find 3.9 pages of recipe discussion


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## matticus (1 Jun 2021)

Oh; chicken livers. Yes. Seem cheap at the supermarket for something so tasty, easy to cook, and nutritious.


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## Reynard (1 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> Oh; chicken livers. Yes. Seem cheap at the supermarket for something so tasty, easy to cook, and nutritious.



Devilled chicken livers on buttered toast 

Oh, hang on, maybe this should be in the toast thread...


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## Reynard (1 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Best way to make the flavour milder is a good long soak (overnight or longer) in milk or yoghurt. Mum always used milk, I use either according to availability. I'd always loved liver as a child and younger teenager and when I first came across it - probably in a student canteen, I can't really remember - I was horrified at the 'strength' of its flavour - and its chewiness!



School dinners... Enough to put you off some foodstuffs for life. 

Although they did spark a lifelong love of spam fritters.


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## Julia9054 (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> School dinners... Enough to put you off some foodstuffs for life.
> 
> Although they did spark a lifelong love of spam fritters.


School dinners still do excellent traditional puddings


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## KnittyNorah (1 Jun 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> School dinners still do excellent traditional puddings


There are some things that actually improve from being carted cross-country from a central kitchen in a heated van - as used to happen in the rural school I attended as a child. Steamed puddings and treacle tart did; custard, cabbage and gravy did not! 
I went home for dinner as a primary school child in the 1950s; a good 70% of us did.


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## Reynard (1 Jun 2021)

Julia9054 said:


> School dinners still do excellent traditional puddings



I do hope the pastry used for jam tart / lemon curd tart has improved since I was at school.

A piece from the middle was fine.

If you got an edge, there was an art to using custard to soften it.

Get a corner*, and the whole piece would go wanging across the dining hall when you stuck the spoon in. A hammer and chisel would've been more useful... 

* for other puddings, a corner was desirable, as the piece was bigger.


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## KnittyNorah (1 Jun 2021)

I've certainly never had a jam roly-poly as good as the ones we got at my grammar school. I think they were steamed for hours and hours (maybe the previous day?) and then stuck into ovens to keep warm, or for reheating, which meant that the edges and ends became all crunchy and caramelised ... mmmmmmmm!


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## Reynard (1 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I've certainly never had a jam roly-poly as good as the ones we got at my grammar school. I think they were steamed for hours and hours (maybe the previous day?) and then stuck into ovens to keep warm, or for reheating, which meant that the edges and ends became all crunchy and caramelised ... mmmmmmmm!



I feel deprived! We never got jam roly poly at school


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## Julia9054 (1 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I've certainly never had a jam roly-poly as good as the ones we got at my grammar school. I think they were steamed for hours and hours (maybe the previous day?) and then stuck into ovens to keep warm, or for reheating, which meant that the edges and ends became all crunchy and caramelised ... mmmmmmmm!


I was just typing something similar as your comment appeared! At my school it was known as dead man’s arm because that is exactly what it looked like before it was cut into individual slices.
I can confirm that, although the jam roll poly where I teach comes ready cut, it still tastes amazing!


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## Julia9054 (1 Jun 2021)

Here’s one before steaming made by my son for Christmas dinner a couple of years ago.
Living up to its name!


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## Fab Foodie (1 Jun 2021)

Sooooo....
Enough. What are the solution(s) IF we think we know what the problem is/are?


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## Reynard (1 Jun 2021)

Hmmm...

Well the "What are we feeding our kids" BBC documentary was certainly thought-provoking (it's available on the i-player and worth watching IMHO), and the results of the one man experiment were compelling enough for the study about the addictiveness of ultra processed food and how it impacts on the brain to be taken further. Of course, you can't draw conclusions from a sample of one, but I'd be really interested to know what a wider study will throw up.

At least I now have a good idea as to *why* I struggle to stop eating when I open a packet of savoury snacks.

But if it's proved through such a study that some types of food are indeed addictive and affect the same areas of the brain as alcohol, cigarettes and hard drugs, then both the government and the food industry have some pretty tough decisions to make.


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## lazybloke (1 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Sooooo....
> Enough. What are the solution(s) IF we think we know what the problem is/are?


Some people must have terrible diet if they can suffer rickets or even scurvy in a modern day UK despite all those fortified foods.


Difficult to extrapolate that to the UK population, but I'd say a combination of better diet and a less sedentary lifestyle is the answer.
Personally speaking, I need to consider both of those points judging by my weight gain in the last year or so.
Others would have their own balance of issues that would need addressing in a manner tailored to their circumstances.

Those cursed with a slow metabolism will find it particularly difficult.

I'm not sure that taxes on unhealthy food achieve much, but I'd be very supportive if those taxes funded a subsidy of healthy ingredients. I doubt that's workable in practice; it would be a system potentially rife with loopholes, would have to be legislated and implemented very carefully. It would be challenged at every step in the courts by the penalised side of the food industry.


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## winjim (1 Jun 2021)

lazybloke said:


> Some people must have terrible diet if they can suffer rickets or even scurvy in a modern day UK despite all those fortified foods.


Rickets is coming back. There's been a large increase in diagnosis of Vit D deficiency in recent years, although that could be due to improved methods and more requests for Vit D analysis. There aren't many cases of rickets per year, but they are increasing.

Incidentally, obesity itself is a risk factor for deficiency of Vit D, and other fat soluble vitamins.


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## mistyoptic (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Well the "What are we feeding our kids" BBC documentary was certainly thought-provoking (it's available on the i-player and worth watching IMHO), and the results of the one man experiment were compelling enough for the study about the addictiveness of ultra processed food and how it impacts on the brain to be taken further. Of course, you can't draw conclusions from a sample of one, but I'd be really interested to know what a wider study will throw up.
> 
> ...


We just finished watching that and I agree. It was very thought provoking and, in some respects, quite scary. Made me look at what we eat as a household.

I’d like to see a bigger study and I wish he’d talked to a politician in the food policy group as well as the chap from the food industry.

well worth a view on iPlayer

edit: not sure what the conspiracy theorists will make of it 😉


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## KnittyNorah (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> At least I now have a good idea as to *why* I struggle to stop eating when I open a packet of savoury snacks.



My simple solution, of never (or vanishingly-rarely ...) buying them, works for me! But easier said than done for many people, I suspect.


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## Reynard (1 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> My simple solution, of never (or vanishingly-rarely ...) buying them, works for me! But easier said than done for many people, I suspect.



I do buy them. But I don't keep them in the house. 

I keep them in the utility room at the back of the garage. So if I want something snacky, I have to go out of the house, along the path, unlock the utility room etc. It does make me stop and think whether I really should have that bag of crisps / cheese savouries / marmite rice cakes / poppadoms.


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## shep (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I do buy them. But I don't keep them in the house.
> 
> I keep them in the utility room at the back of the garage. So if I want something snacky, I have to go out of the house, along the path, unlock the utility room etc. It does make me stop and think whether I really should have that bag of crisps / cheese savouries / marmite rice cakes / poppadoms.


Surely if you didn't buy them at all you couldn't eat them?


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## KnittyNorah (1 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I do buy them. But I don't keep them in the house.
> 
> I keep them in the utility room at the back of the garage. So if I want something snacky, I have to go out of the house, along the path, unlock the utility room etc. It does make me stop and think whether I really should have that bag of crisps / cheese savouries / marmite rice cakes / poppadoms.


That's a good solution too; it wouldn't work for many people though. Over the years, I've had so many friends and acquaintances who've gone through agonies of stopping/controlling their eating, drinking/smoking/gambling/illegal drug use, often alongside compulsive behaviours of different sorts, that I count myself very fortunate to have genetics/metabolism/personality (or whatever it is) that isn't prone to succumb to any of those things. One friend couldn't understand how I walk past the snack cheesey things in the supermarket and 'not be bothered' about buying any.


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## shep (1 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That's a good solution too; it wouldn't work for many people though. Over the years, I've had so many friends and acquaintances who've gone through agonies of stopping/controlling their eating, drinking/smoking/gambling/illegal drug use, often alongside compulsive behaviours of different sorts, that I count myself very fortunate to have genetics/metabolism/personality (or whatever it is) that isn't prone to succumb to any of those things. One friend couldn't understand how I walk past the snack cheesey things in the supermarket and 'not be bothered' about buying any.


Same here, I like a pint though so have to work a bit harder sometimes.


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

shep said:


> Surely if you didn't buy them at all you couldn't eat them?



True.

But there's absolutely nothing wrong with the occasional little bit of what you fancy, just to scratch the itch, like. If I have one pack of crisps a week at the moment, that's a lot.

I've actually eaten a lot less snacky stuff in lockdown, because a bag of crisps is one of those things you automatically throw in a pack up alongside the ubiquitous cheese sandwich and a banana. But no cat shows, no motor racing, no throw-the-bike-on-a-train away days, ergo fewer crisps down the cakehole. I'm sat at home eating three square meals a day rather than eating weird things at odd hours.

Although a strategy that works for me might not necessarily work for someone else. We're all different, and this is precisely why addressing the problem is so challenging.


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That's a good solution too; it wouldn't work for many people though. Over the years, I've had so many friends and acquaintances who've gone through agonies of stopping/controlling their eating, drinking/smoking/gambling/illegal drug use, often alongside compulsive behaviours of different sorts, that I count myself very fortunate to have genetics/metabolism/personality (or whatever it is) that isn't prone to succumb to any of those things. One friend couldn't understand how I walk past the snack cheesey things in the supermarket and 'not be bothered' about buying any.



The other reason I can't keep them in the house...

I have a tortoiseshell cat who steals crisps. 

Irrelevant to this thread, I know, but after I've swept the carpet for the umpteenth time because Madam Poppy has helped herself, it does make one re-think one's storage options...


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> The other reason I can't keep them in the house...
> 
> I have a tortoiseshell cat who steals crisps.
> 
> Irrelevant to this thread, I know, but after I've swept the carpet for the umpteenth time because Madam Poppy has helped herself, it does make one re-think one's storage options...



I had a Jack Russell who'd steal ....
wait for it ...


Spoiler



Cauliflower! raw for preference ..


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## Blue Hills (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Well the "What are we feeding our kids" BBC documentary was certainly thought-provoking (it's available on the i-player and worth watching IMHO), and the results of the one man experiment were compelling enough for the study about the addictiveness of ultra processed food and how it impacts on the brain to be taken further. Of course, you can't draw conclusions from a sample of one, but I'd be really interested to know what a wider study will throw up.


Thanks for the recommendation (or was it someone else upthread?) - will try to get my mum to watch it - I think the issues go way beyond youngsters - I think the rot started in the 60s and 70s when manufactured food was associated by many with prosperity and being modern. I didn't really start eating lots of natural veg until I left home for university.

On the plus side, the fight back about this crap started to gain traction in the 70s I think.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I had a Jack Russell who'd steal ....
> wait for it ...
> 
> 
> ...


get a jack russell and you need never hoover again - at least not for crumbs and the like.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jun 2021)

F** me, that "what are we feeding our kids" was worth it just for the sorry tale of the floating supermarket Nestle sent up and down the amazon for years supposedly delivering nutrition to benighted riverside folk but in truth stacked full of ice cream, chocolate , iced lollies* and other similar junk.
Followed of course by the beeb having to insert the customary additive-rich Nestle PR/lawyer statement.
Folk with a tendency to value more fibre in their intellectual diet will I hope see through this/see what the likes of Nestle are really about.

* nothing wrong with them in moderation of course/.as an occasional treat but it's all too clear that that's not how they are used/promoted.


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## battered (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> True.
> 
> What works for me might not necessarily work for someone else. We're all different, and this is precisely why addressing the problem is so challenging.


Got it in one.


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## mudsticks (2 Jun 2021)

We did our nations health no favours when we industrialised our food system post war.

On top of a diet that had already been affected by our colonial adventures, giving us cheap sugar and other high calorie imported foodstuff.

High calorie, but often low nutrition food is cheaper to grow, process, store, transport than fresh stuff. On the whole.

Those calories are mostly produced by large quantities of diesel, and agrochemicals..
We're basically eating oil.

Whereas fresh stuff requires at least some human labour, which costs more, of course.

The drive for ever cheaper (but in truth externalised cost) food has been relentless - cheered on from all sides.

To the detriment on environment, and human health.

So now we have generations for whom eating fresh vegetables at the recommended rate of 40% of their plate is a totally alien concept.

Compounded by poor availability of such produce in many more deprived areas.

Plus de-skilling in cooking techniques, and or time and facilities available to even do that.

Low income food used to be a vegetable heavy, peasant diet that was largely unprocessed, now it's the polar opposite.

And of course we're still battling against our 'hunter gather' palates that favour salty, sugary high caloric food, that are scarce in nature.

But surround us in overabundance nowadays.

If we're stressed, tired, bored , unhappy or so forth, we reach for the easy comfort foods.

Then we feel less well, the cycle continues.

We put on weight, we feel less inclined to move..And on it goes...

Multinational food production businesses have a lot of dollar invested in pretty much maintaining our addiction to the status quo, in terms of their hold on the food system.

If governments care about the health of their nation, there are things they can actively do, such as enforcing higher standards for public procurement, good school food etc.

In addition to supporting more indigenous fresh food production to make it available and affordable for everyone.

Various schemes are afoot.

There are some new farm support proposals being developed to encourage better diets (and better farming) in this country.

But it all takes time, political and public will, and it's difficult to get much traction with a government that doesn't even regard nutritious food availability as a 'public good' (as health and education are) 
It's all left to the market' which clearly has failed.

Right , I'd better get on - those fresh peas aren't going to harvest themselves.


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## winjim (2 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> We did our nations health no favours when we industrialised our food system post war.
> 
> On top of a diet that had already been affected by our colonial adventures, giving us cheap sugar and other high calorie imported foodstuff.
> 
> ...


I've been wondering where you got to. Nice to see you back.


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## mudsticks (2 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> I've been wondering where you got to. Nice to see you back.



Hi Jim


I'd gone a wandering in the far Northwest of Scotland for a while
(and getting the farm ready to leave so I could go there)



Randomnerd said:


> Apologies for skimming the last dozen or so pages, chaps and chapesses. The first twenty-odd were very interesting and informative.
> 
> Neuro-divergent brains - I’m a recent initiate to that tribe - react very differently to appetites than do neuro-typical brains. Others have posted interesting stuff about this. Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. And more dopamine please. And those brains, and the people who own them, have no control over that. Or much less than a “normal” brain would have.
> 
> ...



I think you might mean this study ?

https://www.soilassociation.org/cau...i-report-ten-years-for-agroecology-in-europe/


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## BoldonLad (2 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Rickets is coming back. There's been a large increase in diagnosis of Vit D deficiency in recent years, although that could be due to improved methods and more requests for Vit D analysis. There aren't many cases of rickets per year, but they are increasing.
> 
> Incidentally, obesity itself is a risk factor for deficiency of Vit D, and other fat soluble vitamins.


Isn’t rickets a vitamin C deficiency?

Isn’t vitamin D the one you get from sunlight?

Or have I failed my NVQ Nutrition?


----------



## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> F** me, that "what are we feeding our kids" was worth it just for the sorry tale of the floating supermarket Nestle sent up and down the amazon for years supposedly delivering nutrition to benighted riverside folk but in truth stacked full of ice cream, chocolate , iced lollies* and other similar junk.
> Followed of course by the beeb having to insert the customary additive-rich Nestle PR/lawyer statement.
> Folk with a tendency to value more fibre in their intellectual diet will I hope see through this/see what the likes of Nestle are really about.
> 
> * nothing wrong with them in moderation of course/.as an occasional treat but it's all too clear that that's not how they are used/promoted.



I started avoiding Nestle products like the plague when it came to my attention - sometime in the early 1970s - of their activities in promoting milk formulae for babies in third world countries - where the water supply to make it up was, course, often polluted and where people were - and still are - too damned poor to buy it, so are apt to over-dilute it . They are a terrible example of the evil - yes _evil _- that can result from the mantra of 'more profit at any cost'. I don't even particularly like babies - but heck I don't think it's the right and proper thing to do to go round _actively promoting _stuff that has already killed lots of them and will kill or damage many more. Not when, in most cases, the original substance is available and is cheaper, easier, better for baby and above all, much much _safer _especially in many of the places where it was, and still is, so heavily marketed. 

FIFTY YEARS LATER I am still checking labels for 'the mark of the Beast' - not 666 but Nestle. It is an absolute disgrace.

Despite heavy censure, WHO criticism and codes for ethical advertising of baby milk, they are still TO THIS DAY touting _crap _for babies in many, many countries - basically wherever and whenever they can get away with it - using highly manipulative language specifically designed to mislead, falsehoods (aka LIES) and are even violating _their own _nutritional guidelines in some countries. 
Just google 'Nestle baby formula scandal' or something similar and you will read the whole sorry story in whatever trusted sources you prefer.


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## Mo1959 (2 Jun 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Isn’t rickets a vitamin C deficiency?


Is that not scurvy? Not sure.

I take supplements off and on but not convinced they do the slightest good apart from emptying my wallet!


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## BoldonLad (2 Jun 2021)

Mo1959 said:


> Is that not scurvy? Not sure.
> 
> I take supplements off and on but not convinced they do the slightest good apart from emptying my wallet!



You could be right, I may have failed


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Isn’t rickets a vitamin C deficiency?
> 
> Isn’t vitamin D the one you get from sunlight?
> 
> Or have I failed my NVQ Nutrition?


Scurvy is Vit C deficiency, rickets def. Vit D.
All the advice about 'sun safety' doesn't help with Vit D deficiency because as usual some people take it to extremes and some people whose beliefs and cultures were developed in a very different climate and culture to this one, cover up a lot more as a matter of course and, while they would have got sufficient Vit D in the countries of the origination of those practices, don't get enough here - as most of us don't throughout the winter anyway.
You don't actually 'get' vit D from sunlight; sunlight lets your body synthesise it. Here's the NHS take on it.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I started avoiding Nestle products like the plague when it came to my attention - sometime in the early 1970s - of their activities in promoting milk formulae for babies in third world countries - where the water supply to make it up was, course, often polluted and where people were - and still are - too damned poor to buy it, so are apt to over-dilute it . They are a terrible example of the evil - yes _evil _- that can result from the mantra of 'more profit at any cost'. I don't even particularly like babies - but heck I don't think it's the right and proper thing to do to go round _actively promoting _stuff that has already killed lots of them and will kill or damage many more. Not when, in most cases, the original substance is available and is cheaper, easier, better for baby and above all, much much _safer _especially in many of the places where it was, and still is, so heavily marketed.
> 
> FIFTY YEARS LATER I am still checking labels for 'the mark of the Beast' - not 666 but Nestle. It is an absolute disgrace.
> 
> ...


yep I know all about that - I avoided nestles for years because of that - god knows how many babies they killed through their products being diluted with polluted water - plus others starved through cash being diverted to a pointless product.
I thought that - eventually - they had changed their ways with regard to THAT issue after years of outrage.
They haven't?
Will check out - from what you have said I fear they just have employed more PR.
Many of the responses of the industrialised food companies remind me of the oil industry and the fag makers - they know what their stuff is doing, and employ reasonable sounding words as part of a sophisticated multi-channel PR strategy to try to neutralise awareness and push away opposition. The food industry chap on the prog was a perfect example. Smooth and sophisticated as he was he didn't look very comfortable to me - seemed to have a lot of internal tension - or maybe I was overthinking it/overpeering at him and he just needed a good bowel movement, inhibited by the uber-processed stuff he'd been eating.


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## BoldonLad (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Scurvy is Vit C deficiency, rickets def. Vit D.
> All the advice about 'sun safety' doesn't help with Vit D deficiency because as usual some people take it to extremes and some people whose beliefs and cultures were developed in a very different climate and culture to this one, cover up a lot more as a matter of course and, while they would have got sufficient Vit D in the countries of the origination of those practices, don't get enough here - as most of us don't throughout the winter anyway.



Some people go to extremes? I would never have guessed that


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## Randomnerd (2 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Hi Jim
> 
> 
> I'd gone a wandering in the far Northwest of Scotland for a while
> ...


IDDRI. That’s the one. Thanks @mudsticks. Nice to see you back


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## Julia9054 (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> All the advice about 'sun safety' doesn't help with Vit D deficiency because as usual some people take it to extremes


And some of us have had skin cancer and need to take it to extremes. And wish we had taken it to extremes when we were younger and the damage to our dna was accumulating.
(I take a vit D supplement. Most of us should)


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## winjim (2 Jun 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Isn’t rickets a vitamin C deficiency?
> 
> Isn’t vitamin D the one you get from sunlight?
> 
> Or have I failed my NVQ Nutrition?


Vit C deficiency causes scurvy but that's vanishingly rare these days. Vit D deficiency causes rickets in children and osteomalacia in adults. It's Vit D that we get from sunlight although much (most?) of the population is deficient by some measure so we really do rely on food fortification.


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## winjim (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Scurvy is Vit C deficiency, rickets def. Vit D.
> All the advice about 'sun safety' doesn't help with Vit D deficiency because as usual some people take it to extremes and some people whose beliefs and cultures were developed in a very different climate and culture to this one, cover up a lot more as a matter of course and, while they would have got sufficient Vit D in the countries of the origination of those practices, don't get enough here - as most of us don't throughout the winter anyway.
> You don't actually 'get' vit D from sunlight; sunlight lets your body synthesise it. Here's the NHS take on it.


An indoor lifestyle, use of sunscreen, air pollution, obesity are all contributory factors to Vit D deficiency. We do synthesise it, so in fact it's really a hormone rather than a vitamin...


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> yep I know all about that - I avoided nestles for years because of that - god knows how many babies they killed through their products being diluted with polluted water - plus others starved through cash being diverted to a pointless product.
> I thought that - eventually - they had changed their ways with regard to THAT issue after years of outrage.
> They haven't?



They certainly hadn't by 2018. Their marketing strategy was designed to be appallingly, and very carefully, misleading in their most 'sophisticated' markets, and in their 'less' sophisticated markets they chopped and changed with ingredients, in one country using an ingredient that in other countries they advertised as being omitted 'for baby's good health'. In part of one region, they claimed their baby milk was healthier because it didn't contain vanilla flavouring (vanilla flavouring for a BABY?) and in another part of the same region, they sold vanilla flavoured baby milk ... some/a Nestle product/s in Hong Kong and/or Spain (can't remember which one and can't find the exact piece that I read, which BTW was in a major UK newspaper and not the Daily Wail) were advertised as being 'identical in structire' to human breast milk - which is of course a clear physiological, biological, manufacturing and production impossibility, as breast milk changes greatly throughout the duration of lactation.

No, they are still a bunch of lying murderers or accessories to murder, every single one of them, leaching on the burning desire of most mother to give what she thinks, or has been taught, or has been subjected to false advertising about , is the very best possible for her baby, as indoctrinated Nestle, which to this day is still global market leader in infant milk products. 

Yes, we know that many babies - and some mothers - have their lives saved by modern baby formulae. We know that if modern baby formulae were not available, many mothers would be tied to the home for months, even years, at a time, unable to either move forward in a hard-fought-for career, or to earn a little extra money outside the home to care for the rest of the family. But no-one should believe they 'ought' to be feeding their newborn baby junk which they have had to pay for with hard-to-come-by money. Vanilla flavouring! Sucrose! Why not just give the kid a Big Mac as a restorative shortly after it's born and be done with ...


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> An indoor lifestyle, use of sunscreen, air pollution, obesity are all contributory factors to Vit D deficiency. We do synthesise it, so in fact it's really a hormone rather than a vitamin...


And it is synthesised by the action of sunlight on that 21st century demon, cholesterol ... 
There's a fair amount of Vit D in egg yolks, red meats, oily fish - all too often demonised, so there's most of your dietary sources gone in a puff of 'healthy eating' smoke. Although oily fish has been redeemed, and eggs to some extent.


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## mudsticks (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> And it is synthesised by the action of sunlight on that 21st century demon, cholesterol ...
> There's a fair amount of Vit D in egg yolks, red meats, oily fish - all too often demonised, so there's most of your dietary sources gone in a puff of 'healthy eating' smoke. Although oily fish has been redeemed, and eggs to some extent.


There's increasingly evidence and consideration being given to the theory that it was never cholesterol that was 'the demon'
More to do with excessive blood sugar levels, from all the refined carbs, the excess sugar 'roughs up' the artery wall

Cholestoral tries to 'repair' that roughening, or at least innocently adheres itself to the arterial walls causing clogging .

So cholestoral gets the bad rep..

High sugar levels were never a part of our 'found in the wild' diets.

Simple unprocessed fats, butter, oils, lard even, are a natural part of our evolved omniverous diet.

With the caveat, that it is possible to have too much of anything..

But sugars, refined carbs (including alcohol) are cheap to produce, and highly palatable, so manufacturers will load it into processed food to make them appealing , and to reduce costs.

Ta da..

A massive upswing in type 2 diabetes, and other conditions related to excessive calorie intake


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## winjim (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> And it is synthesised by the action of sunlight on that 21st century demon, cholesterol ...
> There's a fair amount of Vit D in egg yolks, red meats, oily fish - all too often demonised, so there's most of your dietary sources gone in a puff of 'healthy eating' smoke. Although oily fish has been redeemed, and eggs to some extent.


Cholesterol is itself synthesised by the body so I don't think anyone's at risk of Vit D deficiency secondary to low cholesterol. Regarding fish, farmed salmon is up to an order of magnitude less rich in D than wild salmon, so that's another way that modern food production is contributing to nutrient deficiency.


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Well the "What are we feeding our kids" BBC documentary was certainly thought-provoking (it's available on the i-player and worth watching IMHO), and the results of the one man experiment were compelling enough for the study about the addictiveness of ultra processed food and how it impacts on the brain to be taken further. Of course, you can't draw conclusions from a sample of one, but I'd be really interested to know what a wider study will throw up.
> 
> ...


Will watch. Did they mention 'Kokumi'? I have the same issue with savoury snacks or 'salty' foods. We have a chicken flavour at work which I could eat by the sackload as it's sooooo moreish!!


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

Most of us should in winter, certainly. And all of us who have a skin colour any darker than native northern European should take one all year round, as should anyone who covers themselves entirely.


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Cholesterol is itself synthesised by the body so I don't think anyone's at risk of Vit D deficiency secondary to low cholesterol. Regarding fish, farmed salmon is up to an order of magnitude less rich in D than wild salmon, so that's another way that modern food production is contributing to nutrient deficiency.


I mentioned the cholesterol thing somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it being such a popular demon!


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## winjim (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I mentioned the cholesterol thing somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it being such a popular demon!


Well yeah, it's a precursor to quite a few important molecules...


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jun 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> Isn’t rickets a vitamin C deficiency?
> 
> Isn’t vitamin D the one you get from sunlight?
> 
> Or have I failed my NVQ Nutrition?


50% See teach


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> Vit C deficiency causes scurvy but that's vanishingly rare these days. Vit D deficiency causes rickets in children and osteomalacia in adults. It's Vit D that we get from sunlight although much (most?) of the population is deficient by some measure so we really do rely on food fortification.


Rickets is also Calcium deficiency as in Muesli-belt malnutrition....


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## winjim (2 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Rickets is also Calcium deficiency as in Muesli-belt malnutrition....


I'd not heard that term before but yes, a low Ca high fibre diet can cause Vit D deficiency. Fortified high fibre milk alternatives may not be as nutritious as one might think, although to be fair I've switched to oat milk on my cereal and gone from severely Vit D deficient a few years ago to Vit D replete last time I measured it.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> They certainly hadn't by 2018. Their marketing strategy was designed to be appallingly, and very carefully, misleading in their most 'sophisticated' markets, and in their 'less' sophisticated markets they chopped and changed with ingredients, in one country using an ingredient that in other countries they advertised as being omitted 'for baby's good health'. In part of one region, they claimed their baby milk was healthier because it didn't contain vanilla flavouring (vanilla flavouring for a BABY?) and in another part of the same region, they sold vanilla flavoured baby milk ... some/a Nestle product/s in Hong Kong and/or Spain (can't remember which one and can't find the exact piece that I read, which BTW was in a major UK newspaper and not the Daily Wail) were advertised as being 'identical in structire' to human breast milk - which is of course a clear physiological, biological, manufacturing and production impossibility, as breast milk changes greatly throughout the duration of lactation.
> 
> No, they are still a bunch of lying murderers or accessories to murder, every single one of them, leaching on the burning desire of most mother to give what she thinks, or has been taught, or has been subjected to false advertising about , is the very best possible for her baby, as indoctrinated Nestle, which to this day is still global market leader in infant milk products.
> 
> Yes, we know that many babies - and some mothers - have their lives saved by modern baby formulae. We know that if modern baby formulae were not available, many mothers would be tied to the home for months, even years, at a time, unable to either move forward in a hard-fought-for career, or to earn a little extra money outside the home to care for the rest of the family. But no-one should believe they 'ought' to be feeding their newborn baby junk which they have had to pay for with hard-to-come-by money. Vanilla flavouring! Sucrose! Why not just give the kid a Big Mac as a restorative shortly after it's born and be done with ...


Thanks norah.
Rings true.
Changing the message according to the audience.
Everything from the oil industry to the church, particularly catholic, has indulged in these games.


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jun 2021)

So here is the part-baked Foodie Obesity-reducing manifesto....

In no particular order:

For health, nutrition and environmental reasons we need to move towards a more plant-based and nutrient high diet, particularly vegetables and reduce dependence on foods that are heavy in fat and sugars and offer little nutritive benefit other than calories. Nudging to be used to drive people to make better purchasing choices, so some examples:

Increase the sugar tax to all foods, cakes, confectionary, pastries, biscuits and sugar etc. (High calorie, no nutritional value)
Increase tax on all processed meats but not fresh/frozen joints, chops, mince etc - where meat is reduced in size by cutting/chopping
Increase tax on White bread and refined white flour based products, white rice etc. such that brown/wholemeal/whole grain forms are cheaper
Dried beans and pulses to be tax-free, Frozen Veg to be tax-free
Increase Duty on Take-Out alcohol 
Fortification of 'replacement' products - e.g Iodine and Calcium fortification of non-dairy Milks, Iron fortification of meat replacers etc
I would also ban advertising and sponsorship for take-away foods/delivery services and products such as High Sugar drinks, Confectionary, Cakes, pastries, Alcohol etc - basically those foods that would be given a nudge taxation rise. 

Public Health - we need to move to a prevention rather than cure model by changing investment in the NHS (the cost to the NHS/Public purse is significant and rising).

Free school meals for all children to school leaving age based on a diet as proscribed above - High Veg, low free carb
Free milk at break and lunch
Free Breakfasts in particularly deprived areas
School Nurses - routine health/nutrition MOT during school years
School 'activity' to be increased sport or similar physical
End food banks
Bariatric surgery to be more widely available - the benefits outweigh the costs
More regular adult health-checks as if you were going private, access to dieticians etc.
Greater encouragement to be active. Nudges to encourage walking and cycling rather than cars - School runs being a perfect example
Finally, the biggie: It's well documented that Obesity and other ill health issues are related to socio-economic factors, education, deprivation and lack of opportunity. This needs to change.


So, shoot-away!


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## Oldhippy (2 Jun 2021)

I will vote for you on that alone Fabbers. It really is that simple isn't it.


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Will watch. Did they mention 'Kokumi'? I have the same issue with savoury snacks or 'salty' foods. We have a chicken flavour at work which I could eat by the sackload as it's sooooo moreish!!



No, not directly. But they did mention the "pleasure point" that you get with a particular ratio of fat to salt - a bit like Goldilocks and the porridge.

I'm a sucker for cheese or marmite flavoured snacky things. Or marmite or anchovy paste on toast...


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> No, not directly. But they did mention the "pleasure point" that you get with a particular ratio of fat to salt - a bit like Goldilocks and the porridge.
> 
> I'm a sucker for cheese or marmite flavoured snacky things. Or marmite or anchovy paste on toast...


In all of my nearly 40 years in the Food Industry I have never ever met a single person who is looking to engineer a certain Fat/Salt ratio into a product to create that pleasure point to sell more. Though I have seen various bits of taste research that hints at what makes something more moreish with a view to understanding how to make stuff less 'addictive'... Maybe I need to get out more often.


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## Oldhippy (2 Jun 2021)

Pretty sure there are drugs in Pringles. Providing a resealable is a waste of plastic.


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> In all of my nearly 40 years in the Food Industry I have never ever met a single person who is looking to engineer a certain Fat/Salt ratio into a product to create that pleasure point to sell more. Though I have seen various bits of taste research that hints at what makes something more moreish with a view to understanding how to make stuff less 'addictive'... Maybe I need to get out more often.



This was touched on in the documentary - that it's not a deliberate thing to hit that pleasure point, but it apparently crops up as an unintended consequence of stuff being run past panels of tasters / product reviewers etc. Same sort of thing applies to sugar / fat ratios.


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

I do think we definitely need to see more on the education front - teach the kiddies from primary level upwards, take advantage of that curiosity to get a good grounding in the basics.

Cooking, gardening and healthy eating should be on the school curriculum - not "Food Technology" in its current format*. Cooking is a life skill anyways, and all three are sides of the same coin as it were anyway.

* Friends with teenage kids have told me of a lesson to make cottage pie, where the kids were asked to bring in the following - a can of mince, a packet of instant mash, a pouch of pre-chopped onion and a can of peas.


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## lazybloke (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> This was touched on in the documentary - that it's not a deliberate thing to hit that pleasure point, but it apparently crops up as an unintended consequence of stuff being run past panels of tasters / product reviewers etc. Same sort of thing applies to sugar / fat ratios.


 
The fat/salt discussion reminded me of Salted Caramel ice cream. I'd happy have that at a tasting session, rather than the usual mundane stuff like toothpaste.


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## Blue Hills (2 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> In all of my nearly 40 years in the Food Industry I have never ever met a single person who is looking to engineer a certain Fat/Salt ratio into a product to create that pleasure point to sell more. Though I have seen various bits of taste research that hints at what makes something more moreish with a view to understanding how to make stuff less 'addictive'... Maybe I need to get out more often.


i'd be pretty surprised/amazed if that wasn't the case - i reckon the higher ups know what they are after and those below fall into line.
Shell knew, as a famous bit of grafitti told/reminded us.
the tobacco industry knew.
the food industry knew/knows,


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## mudsticks (2 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> So here is the part-baked Foodie Obesity-reducing manifesto....
> 
> In no particular order:
> 
> ...



All this is fine in theory, the problems and the solutions with improving much of the food and farming system have been rehearsed for decades.

Trouble is with impending post brexit trade deals with US or whoever the chances are we will have lower standards on food production, labelling , and not be allowed to protect quality home grown produce in the way in which we could inside the EU.

There's a high chance we'll end up with a two tier food system

On the one hand deregulated cheap stuff imported from anywhere produced to uncertain standards.

For those who don't know the difference, or can't afford to choose better.

With a few more niche producers like me supplying those who care .

Unless of course the great British food citizen actively supports measures to improve the situation.


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## Kingfisher101 (2 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> Oh; chicken livers. Yes. Seem cheap at the supermarket for something so tasty, easy to cook, and nutritious.


I actually never knew people actually eat these, I thought they were just for cats.


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

Good to see you back @mudsticks


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I actually never knew people actually eat these, I thought they were just for cats.



My two turn their noses up at those...


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## mudsticks (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Good to see you back @mudsticks



Thank you 

Chicken livers are yum, from a half decent bird of course 

The cat wouldn't get a look in


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

Kingfisher101 said:


> I actually never knew people actually eat these, I thought they were just for cats.


When I had cats and dogs, I would be cooking chicken livers and pinching them out of the pan as they sizzled, saying one for me, a little one for you, one for me, a bit for you, one for me, a couple of tubes for you, one for me, another one for me ... until eventually they were all gone and not one of them had touched a plate or a dish ... straight out of the pan into a mouth - human, feline or canine!


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## Reynard (2 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> When I had cats and dogs, I would be cooking chicken livers and pinching them out of the pan as they sizzled, saying one for me, a little one for you, one for me, a bit for you, one for me, a couple of tubes for you, one for me, another one for me ... until eventually they were all gone and not one of them had touched a plate or a dish ... straight out of the pan into a mouth - human, feline or canine!



That's more or less how we roll here chez Casa Reynard. Like tonight, for instance...

Tuna for me. Tuna for Poppy. Tuna for Lexi. Tuna for me. Tuna for Poppy. Tuna for Lexi. Und so weiter... 

N.B. This was freshly-grilled tuna that I was meant to be flaking up to put in tonight's salad.


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## KnittyNorah (2 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> * Friends with teenage kids have told me of a lesson to make cottage pie, where the kids were asked to bring in the following - a can of mince, a packet of instant mash, a pouch of pre-chopped onion and a can of peas.



I was reminded of a similar sort of thing a friend with a teenage daughter told me about a few years ago. The teenage daughter was - quite rightly - disgusted beyond measure, being a keen cook herself and her mother at the time a professional chef at an upmarket golf club. And both of them bloody good all-round cooks. 
Young Alice apparently told the teacher in no uncertain terms what she thought - and had support from a couple of her classmates in flatly refusing to bring in the weird assortment of tinned and packet ingredients demanded of them, instead saying they would make the item - whatever it was - out of 'proper' ingredients. And they did.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> There could be a practical/ policy reason for that. All of the listed items are _sealed_. Would you want to eat cottage pie made with mince that has been knocking around at the bottom of a schoolchild's satchel all day?
> 
> Granted it would be less of an issue for tatties, but all the same, they can still teach most of the skills, which is what it's really all about, using the pre packed things.



I get what you are saying - up to a point. When I did Home Economics at school, most of the ingredients were provided.

But teach you the skills? No, I'm not so sure about that. Going back to the cottage pie made from packaged ingredients. I mean you don't learn how to wash, peel, cut up, boil and mash potatoes. You don't learn when they are underdone or just right. You don't learn about how not to put too much meat in your pan else it will steam and not brown, you don't learn how to deglaze your frying pan and add flour to make the gravy. You don't learn about seasoning or what consistency things should be.

It's just plopping ingredients together without learning any of the basic skills.

It's just like Delia Smith's "How to Cheat at Cooking"


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> There could be a practical/ policy reason for that. All of the listed items are _sealed_. Would you want to eat cottage pie made with mince that has been knocking around at the bottom of a schoolchild's satchel all day?
> 
> Granted it would be less of an issue for tatties, but all the same, they can still teach most of the skills, which is what it's really all about, using the pre packed things.


Seems to me the skill that's being concentrated on there is 'how to use a can-opener'. And 'safe and appropriate transport and storage of foodstuffs' is a skill which needs teaching to many, too.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> When I first started to fend for myself I taught myself two cooking skills: 1) Mince thing (fried onions, peppers, seasoning. Bung in mince. Add tin of tomatoes).


I'm not far past that now - am lucky in that I can quite happily eat similar stuff for days on end - I usually add chopped small tomatoes to the tinned ones - usually from a couple of markets not far from you. Sometimes buy 2 or 3 bags.
Top tip - tomatoes can be frozen for such things - fact they are frozen makes them easier to slice/chop for the sauce without them squirting all over - they soon thaw when thrown in the mix.
You can't freeze tomatoes for other uses - they lose all their substance on thawing.

You end up with something way better than the overpriced additive added tomato slop sold as ready sauce in many supermarkets.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> The great thing about Mince Thing is that depending on what you bung in with the onions, and what you do afterwards is it could end up as a curry, a spaghetti sauce, a shepherds pie or many other gourmet dishes. In my student days you'd add a pan full boiled lentils to make a vast quantity of of Bland Mince Slop (mmmm) for feeding lots of people.


The mince thing in my student days turned into the infamous "spaghetti meal" - the recipe and quantities just got bigger and bigger - in the end we were struggling to eat it all.
If you are doing the sauce without mince you don't need to use any oil - the onions/peppers and whatever can just saute/soften in the tomato juice. Don't need to be fried.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Are you Heston Bumenthal?


Hardly.
I may one day OD on tomatoes though.


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## battered (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Mince Thing without Mince? That would just be Thing.


Mince Thing without mince is just deviancy. Weirdoes. Mince Thing is perfect student food. Lob in red kidney beans for chilli, if you are being posh and trying to impress someone cute, add salad and tortillas and a bottle of red, nothing not to like.


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## battered (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I do think we definitely need to see more on the education front - teach the kiddies from primary level upwards, take advantage of that curiosity to get a good grounding in the basics.
> 
> Cooking, gardening and healthy eating should be on the school curriculum - not "Food Technology" in its current format*. Cooking is a life skill anyways, and all three are sides of the same coin as it were anyway.


Certainly. Children are in school for 6 hours a day, 5 days. What are you taking out of their day to put this in?


Blue Hills said:


> i'd be pretty surprised/amazed if that wasn't the case - i reckon the higher ups know what they are after and those below fall into line.


Give over with the conspiracy theory. I've been in the food industry for over 30 years, working at all levels, and trust me, no bugger in it is that bloody clever.


KnittyNorah said:


> I was reminded of a similar sort of thing a friend with a teenage daughter told me about a few years ago. The teenage daughter was - quite rightly - disgusted beyond measure, being a keen cook herself and her mother at the time a professional chef at an upmarket golf club. And both of them bloody good all-round cooks.
> Young Alice apparently told the teacher in no uncertain terms what she thought - and had support from a couple of her classmates in flatly refusing to bring in the weird assortment of tinned and packet ingredients demanded of them, instead saying they would make the item - whatever it was - out of 'proper' ingredients. And they did.


Good for her. What did she do to help the children from the local estate who didn't bring any ingredients in at all because they didn't have it at home and their parents didn't give them to money to go and buy them?


Dogtrousers said:


> There could be a practical/ policy reason for that. All of the listed items are _sealed_. Would you want to eat cottage pie made with mince that has been knocking around at the bottom of a schoolchild's satchel all day?


Absolutely right. Add in the time available. What's a lesson, an hour? I'm not convinced that I could do cottage pie from scratch to plate in an hour, and I know what I'm doing. In fact I couldn't, unless I cheated.


Reynard said:


> I get what you are saying - up to a point. When I did Home Economics at school, most of the ingredients were provided.
> 
> But teach you the skills? No, I'm not so sure about that. Going back to the cottage pie made from packaged ingredients. I mean you don't learn how to wash, peel, cut up, boil and mash potatoes. You don't learn when they are underdone or just right. You don't learn about how not to put too much meat in your pan else it will steam and not brown, you don't learn how to deglaze your frying pan and add flour to make the gravy. You don't learn about seasoning or what consistency things should be.


The target here is a child aged under 16. You're going to teach this to 30 of them, in an hour, when half of them haven't brought in the materials because "we 'ent got no tates at 'ome, or carrots, or mince, or owt."? That's ambitious.


Dogtrousers said:


> Yeah, I was just suggesting an underlying reason for wanting sealed ingredients to be brought in
> 
> Well it's true that _some_ kids will have been exposed to cooking skills, many won't. I know I was not. So I think a gentle introduction to the concept of bunging things together and transforming them from "ingredients" to "meal" may be needed for these kids.
> 
> But I'm not much of a cook, and know nothing at all about teaching so the above may be rubbish.


No, you are quite right.


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## winjim (3 Jun 2021)

Tin of mince £1.50. Instant mash 28p. Chopped onion £1.00. Tinned peas 40p. Total £3.18, but the mince already has onion in it so omit that and you can do it for £2.18. Shelf life a couple of years.

Fresh mince £1.49. Single onion 10p. Pack of potatoes 89p. Frozen peas 59p. Total £3.07. Shelf life a couple of days.

In a world of food banks, cooking from tins is a skill in and of itself.


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## Fab Foodie (3 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> *In a world of food banks, cooking from tins is a skill in and of itself.*


An area where Jack Monroe has done brilliant work to reduce the cost of eating and making tasty and nutritious food and slayed a few food critics en-route. When Delia tried it she got hammered :-( It must be tough for the middle classes....


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## Kingfisher101 (3 Jun 2021)

I was never taught to cook, I taught myself as I went along. At 6 I could use the cooker by myself and prepare a simple meal like an omelette with chips or salad. I could now cook any family meal within reason without having to look up what to do etc. All we did at school was learn how to make a vegetable soup, that's it.
I think now though something does need to be done about childhood obesity, I know 2 children who were over 20 stones each in their teens etc. Once someone gets used to high sugar, high fat food its very difficult to wean them off and go for something like a chicken salad or salmon with veg etc which is more like what people should be eating. Not pizza, fried chips and loads of coke with a donut etc.


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## winjim (3 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> An area where Jack Monroe has done brilliant work to reduce the cost of eating and making tasty and nutritious food and slayed a few food critics en-route. When Delia tried it she got hammered :-( It must be tough for the middle classes....


I kind of think that if you're the kind of family that has the wherewithal, in terms of time, money and skills, to cook from fresh the majority of the time, then you're probably going to pass that down to your kids anyway. So they aren't the ones we need to target. We need to teach kids basic skills, not fancy chef stuff. You've got an hour a week to teach thirty kids how to cook? Good luck with that.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> "How to use a can opener" is not to be sniffed at. As noted above there are plenty of decent healthy foodstuffs available in tins. And it's a big step up from takeaways. So learning how to make, say, beans on toast or sardines on toast could be quite a breakthrough in cheap healthy eating. Again it's something that, going back to my student days, I got a deal of satisfaction from.


If the teacher had wanted to _start _on the basics of healthy eating combined with speed, cheapness, ease and convenience, then I agree 100% that beans and/or sardines on wholemeal toast - maybe with a couple of grilled tomatoes - would have been just the thing. Alice and her pals had already patiently tolerated a term or more of this - and a couple of the kids with 'foodie-snob' parents (not Alice!) had really enjoyed it, never having been introduced to the something tasty, cheap and quick-on-toast concept at home!
However, the lesson which caused the controversy was quite late on in the year, and was supposed to be 'making a full meal from scratch'. IIRC Alice said some sort of pasta dish was selected as the basis for the lesson which she initially thought was a good choice as different people could use, or omit, different things according to preference or requirements, but they'd all be going through the same basic steps. However the ingredient list consisted _entirely _of packets and tins - even the optional cheese sauce was a packet one, and there was no actual _cheese _used at all, even for 'finishing' or serving. TBH I think young Alice and her friends would've been better off leading the class themselves for some of the lessons!


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## Oldhippy (3 Jun 2021)

Surely the parents have the main responsibility over the schools? If you have children the onus must be on them to teach the basics.


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## winjim (3 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> I remember back in my youth my dad was working away from home and in self catering accommodation for a while. He'd never been near a cooker, other than to install one. My mum had written him a card with things like "potatoes, cut into X-inch chunks, boil XX min. Rice ..." etc. I asked her to do the same for me. It was pinned up in my bedsit.


I have friends who get frustrated that their husbands can't cook or carry out any other domestic tasks like using a washing machine. There's a certain cohort of men who have gone straight from living with their parents with their mum doing all that for them, to being married and expecting their wives to do it all. Now that might have worked BITD when traditional gender roles were the norm and we still had 'housewife' as the expected female career, but nowadays...


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## battered (3 Jun 2021)

winjim said:


> I kind of think that if you're the kind of family that has the wherewithal, in terms of time, money and skills, to cook from fresh the majority of the time, then you're probably going to pass that down to your kids anyway. So they aren't the ones we need to target. We need to teach kids basic skills, not fancy chef stuff. You've got an hour a week to teach thirty kids how to cook? Good luck with that.


Exactly right. Education, like many things, falls neatly into a triage system. Some are going to get it anyway, all you have to do is point them at it and keep them interested, some are a lost cause and you are wasting your time trying. In the middle are all the rest. These are the ones that you really need to teach. Critically you need to stop them sliding off the back into the no hopers, and if you can drag a few no hopers kicking and screaming into the bottom end of the middle group, then that's a bonus.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Good for her. What did she do to help the children from the local estate who didn't bring any ingredients in at all because they didn't have it at home and their parents didn't give them to money to go and buy them?



I would like to ask you - as an adult, not as a 15 yo - what the food industry is doing to help prevent food poverty in areas where many of the basic ingredients which enable them to make such huge profits often at the expense of the health of the population, are produced by low-wage earners and their families.

Alice and my friend live very rurally in an area of large scale arable farming and horticulture where wages are low and a large percentage of the population are recent immigrants without fluent English, living in substandard housing in villages with no public transport. 
Poor people there don't live 'on local estates' - there are none as city dwellers know them - they share cramped multi-family or multi-generational accommodation, and there is nowhere for anyone - rich or poor - to go and buy packets and tins at short notice without having their own transport. 
So the list of shop-bought ingredients was largely inaccessible to all without significant notice at least, and all of it was provided by the school although naturally pupils were welcome to bring in their own stuff if they wished. or were able. 
Poor people in that sort of area are _much _more likely to have access to fruits and vegetables which are discarded either accidentally or deliberately for a range of reasons, or which are available 'for the picking' and a blind eye turned to it at least occasionally and on a small scale. Alice knew _perfectly well _that the kids from the poorest families would have much easier access to that sort of stuff than to a jar of this, a tin of that, two packets of the other. 
As one of the lucky ones with a mother who at least worked , albeit as a cook (not precisely a high-salary profession unless one is a celebrity cook ...), by standing up to the teacher who was clearly an entrenched townie, she was actually standing up for the poorest of the children in her class, and others who will doubtless come after her. In an area of extensive arable farming and horticulture, a bunch of basic veggies can often be picked up literally off the road- or at least off farm driveways as they exit to the road, while waiting for the school bus in the morning, or while walking home from the bus in the afternoon.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Surely the parents have the main responsibility over the schools? If you have children the onus must be on them to teach the basics.


I agree wholeheartedly - but it seems that schools nowadays are expected by a great many people to take responsibility for teaching _everything, _from taking one's coat on and off, through use of a knife and fork and flushing the toilet, to advanced calculus. Hopefully in the right order, but I sometimes wonder ...


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Certainly. Children are in school for 6 hours a day, 5 days. What are you taking out of their day to put this in?



A lot of this is basic science, general knowledge plus stuff that should be covered in Personal and Social Education (or whatever it is called these days).


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## BoldonLad (3 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Surely the *parents* have the main *responsibility* over the schools? If you have children the onus must be on them to teach the basics.



Good luck with that one


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Give over with the conspiracy theory. I've been in the food industry for over 30 years, working at all levels, and trust me, no bugger in it is that bloody clever.



The statement was:
>>In all of my nearly 40 years in the Food Industry I have never ever met a single person who is looking to engineer a certain Fat/Salt ratio into a product to create that pleasure point to sell more.

I don't think you need to be that clever at all to do that.

No conspiracy theories at all my end in thinking that the manufacturers of foods try to do that.

Methinks you protest too much.

Are you seriously trying to tell me/us that food companies go out of their way to ensure that folk don't want to eat more of their stuff?

I rather worry what you have been eating - I skimmed that BBC prog but I believe it made reference to brain changes.

You'll be trying to tell us next that "more-ish" is a non thing and that food manufacturers are conducting some sort of aversion therapy via their products to make us hate their stuff.

I'd be frankly amazed if there isn't a stack of documents/emails from lots of companies addressing the question of folk coming back for more of their stuff.

Some of it pretty transparent and damning.

It will come out in time.

Suggest you watch the prog and read a few books on ultra processed foods.

And get in tune with your body when you do eat the stuff.

I stress that I do now and then - am not a hair-shirt character.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Surely the parents have the main responsibility over the schools? If you have children the onus must be on them to teach the basics.


well yes and no.
My parents weren't exactly into freshly prepared stuff - apart from peeling spuds for chips - and the veg was definitely overcooked.
A lot of the rot started in the 60s and 70s.
I am sure many adults of that era have an inbuilt suspicion of fresh stuff when there appear to be tech solutions - anyone who was young in that era will surely remember all the excited talk of how we would all in the bright new future be popping food pills like astronauts. As a kid I remember being a tad enchanted by this space age solution since the stuff I ate/was fed wasn't exactly tasty and interesting.
My mum still eats lots of junk.
Has a pretty low appreciation of what is healthy - is very suspicious of anything "different".
I owe my awareness of healthy eating - and it took a while - to moving away to university, fending for myself and sharing a flat with someone who told us to eat lots of veg for economy and other reasons.
It is in society's interest to teach basic food intelligence, whatever the inclinations of whatever parents.

edited for typo.


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## matticus (3 Jun 2021)

This was our bible. I hope it's still in print, despite "Grant" ??? being an obsolete term.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

am reading a book about student life in london in the 70s.
when white basmati was considered some sort of exotic health food for self-flagellating eccentrics and such stuff had to be sought out.
Things are getting better in some ways - there is hope.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

matticus said:


> View attachment 592018
> 
> This was our bible. I hope it's still in print, despite "Grant" ??? being an obsolete term.



It's available as a downloadable *.PDF 

"How to Boil an Egg: 184 simple recipes for one" is another cook book of the same genre.

We had a book club at junior school, where you could subscribe for the year and then buy books at a reduced price. One of the first books I bought was "The Piccolo Cook Book" by Marguerite Patten. And I still have it, you know...  (It's also sold under the title The Junior Cook Book)


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## Fab Foodie (3 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> The statement was:
> >>In all of my nearly 40 years in the Food Industry I have never ever met a single person who is looking to engineer a certain Fat/Salt ratio into a product to create that pleasure point to sell more.
> 
> I don't think you need to be that clever at all to do that.
> ...


Well between @battered and me that's 70 years of experience around the industry.
Of course we want to make products that people like and want to buy. Of course we/our customers want to make foods that taste good and that people want to consume regularly. That's done in a variety of ways in all different products, good bad and indifferent.
But people seem to think that we sit around with some magic formulas to sell as much salt/fat/sugar/unhealthiness as possible, or we have some magic ingredient(s) to make food addictive to children and we sit in secret designing how to do this...and it simply isn't true.
All food however it is produced even when cooked at home is made to have nice visuals, good flavour/aroma/texture etc. there are myriad food cues that make some products more appealing than others, the Industry is no different be it human, or animals, we all have preferences. It's why some go to 'The star of India' when pothers prefer the 'Taj Mahal' or people prefer the chips or batter at 'Joe's Plaice' rather than 'The Cod Father'.
Yes, we try to make foods that people like/want. But we're not setting-out to make them 'addictive'. Addiction comes from more than just consuming a certain type of food. I can see however there's a fine line.

'Moreishness' is most definitely is a thing, it's a natural thing. Understanding it is important both to sell products and also to understand overconsumption. People have been using moreishness since forever.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> You end up with something way better than the overpriced additive added tomato slop sold as ready sauce in many supermarkets.



A couple of tins of plum tomatoes, a large onion - finely chopped, half a head of garlic - finely chopped, some oregano, salt, black pepper, a glug of olive oil and let that simmer slowly for a couple of hours. You won't get a better authentic Italian tomato sauce than that.

Courtesy of a Sicilian bloke I hung around with at uni.


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## BoldonLad (3 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Well between @battered and me that's 70 years of experience around the industry.
> Of course we want to make products that people like and want to buy. Of course we/our customers want to make foods that taste good and that people want to consume regularly. That's done in a variety of ways in all different products, good bad and indifferent.
> But people seem to think that we sit around with some magic formulas to sell as much salt/fat/sugar/unhealthiness as possible, or we have some magic ingredient(s) to make food addictive to children and we sit in secret designing how to do this...and it simply isn't true.
> All food however it is produced even when cooked at home is made to have nice visuals, good flavour/aroma/texture etc. there are myriad food cues that make some products more appealing than others, the Industry is no different be it human, or animals, we all have preferences. It's why some go to 'The star of India' when pothers prefer the 'Taj Mahal' or people prefer the chips or batter at 'Joe's Plaice' rather than 'The Cod Father'.
> ...



Good defence.

I agree by the way.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> A couple of tins of plum tomatoes, a large onion - finely chopped, half a head of garlic - finely chopped, some oregano, salt, black pepper, a glug of olive oil and let that simmer slowly for a couple of hours. You won't get a better authentic Italian tomato sauce than that.
> 
> Courtesy of a Sicilian bloke I hung around with at uni.


sod the two hours.
I used to know an italian (actually sicilian as well) in london through cycling - every evening, despite living in a cramped bedsit with one other person, he cooked in an oven for about two hours I think. Maybe more.
Madness - italians do have a good attitude to food in many ways but can be extremely anal about it - and can be more narrow-minded than the most narrow-minded "traditional" working class brit northerner.
The tinned tomato is a thing of wonder though - I was pretty old before I realised what they were for - opened a few tins when younger and emptied the sad looking contents onto a plate.
I reckon you can make a perfectly decent sauce while the pasta is cooking.
which of course means that opening a ready sauce is no time-saving.
(or maybe I'm easily pleased)


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> But people seem to think that we sit around with some magic formulas to sell as much salt/fat/sugar/unhealthiness as possible,


with respect no-one in the entire thread has I think suggested that the industry is setting out to damage health as a primary aim.
Something of a straw man/conspiracy theory.
Nor has anyone suggested that putin is behind it all.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> sod the two hours.
> I used to know an italian in london through cycling - every evening, despite living in a cramped bedsit with one other person, he cooked in an oven for about two hours I think. Maybe more.
> Madness - italians do have a good attitude to food in many ways but can be extremely anal about it - and can be more narrow-minded than the most narrow-minded "traditional" working class brit northerner.
> The tinned tomato is a thing of wonder though - I was pretty old before I realised what they were for - opened a few tins when younger and emptied the sad looking contents onto a plate.
> ...



Hah! Tell me about it! Put ten Italians into a room and they will never agree on how best to cook a particular dish - except to say that their Nonna's spaghetti / cannelloni / aubergine parmiggiana / whatever is the best and that everyone else is cooking it wrong. 

Sure, you can make a very decent pasta sauce in about ten minutes, but there's something about that long, slow cooking that just lifts the flavour to another level.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Hah! Tell me about it! Put ten Italians into a room and they will never agree on how best to cook a particular dish - except to say that their Nonna's spaghetti / cannelloni / aubergine parmiggiana / whatever is the best and that everyone else is cooking it wrong.


yep
the
"just like mamma used to make" has a real basis in fact - not just a comedy routine.
I well remember an italian telling me that pasta can't be brown.
They were introduced to that via sainsburys I think and their 70s student clientele.
Italians are riddled with rules about food.
The basis of much of their stuff is of course the (wondrous) tomato.
But it came to them pretty late.
I well remember some recipe bollocks from Italy claiming that a certain recipe was several centuries old.
It used tomatoes.
A fair few Italians have a dodgy ethnocentric view of history.
This recipe supposedly pre-dated the introduction of the tomato to Italy.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Yes, we try to make foods that people like/want. But we're not setting-out to make them 'addictive'. Addiction comes from more than just consuming a certain type of food. I can see however there's a fine line.
> 
> 'Moreishness' is most definitely is a thing, it's a natural thing. Understanding it is important both to sell products and also to understand overconsumption. People have been using moreishness since forever.



The line is indeed a fine one - as with a lot of other things. But a consequence, no matter how unintentional, still has to be taken into account.

Also, there is moreishness and moreishness. There is a big difference between scarfing a punnet of raspberries and sticking a whole tube of pringles down the hatch...


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Also, there is moreishness and moreishness. There is a big difference between scarfing a punnet of raspberries and sticking a whole tube of pringles down the hatch...


Pringles were of course made by/for Proctor and Gamble, best known for soap powder.
I was introduced to this factoid by a marketing course - when the big P&G did still hand-craft/extrude them.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

And doesn't the advert for Pringles contain the gem of "once you pop, you can't stop" 

I mean I know I picked Pringles out of thin air to compare to the raspberries, but then that popped into my head...


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## Milzy (3 Jun 2021)

Some great posts here but most obese people I know are not from poverty. They are the ones with quite a bit of wealth. Mortgages paid off, both with high salary jobs resulting in large amounts of expendable cash. They are always buying takeaways or eating out. They are always at coffee/cake shops where ever they go. Not all are lazy some are running & cycling almost every night but they are still way over weight because you can never out run/ride a poor diet with portions too large.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

Milzy said:


> . Not all are lazy some are running & cycling almost every night but they are still way over weight because you can never out run/ride a poor diet with portions too large.


A certain truth in this - cycling is so damn **ing efficient.
myfitnesspal highlights this.
We all know cyclists bulging though lycra - some alarmingly so.
On their lightweight bikes.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

Milzy said:


> Not all are lazy some are running & cycling almost every night but they are still way over weight because you can never out run/ride a poor diet with portions too large.



Portion control is a sadly-neglected factor in obesity (and also in increasing weight in the unhealthily-underweight). 
But baggage from so many things in our lives is hung on the food that we eat, that separating them all out one from the other, to arrive at a universal solution is simply impossible. Providing 'generous helpings', and accepting them, is culturally-mediated (in lots of cultures!) and a difficult habit to break. In fact for some it might even be impossible to break without causing deep offence somewhere in the family.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

I certainly agree with the whole culture thing @KnittyNorah - Being a child of two immigrants, one from Belgium and one from Poland. I've certainly had plenty of first-hand experience of that.

Polish and German (my paternal grandmother's family were ethnic German) hospitality is *very* generous. I've had experience of Poland before and after the Iron Curtain came down, and certainly, after, the emphasis was that if you could afford it, you ate all the things that were once difficult to get under the communist system. Which basically meant a lot of meat (mainly in the form of hams and sausages) and a lot of sweet food. Added to the fact that Polish food does tend towards the stodgy at best...

Mum and I ruffled a fair few feathers when we pointed out the distinct lack of vegetable matter - we were told in no uncertain terms " but that's what poor people eat, and we're not poor"

The sausages and cakes were, admittedly, very nice, but our digestive systems certainly didn't appreciate it, and neither did our waistlines. Oh yes, and this was staying with the cousin of Red Velour Tracksuit fame... (that I mentioned up thread)

N.B. The diet under the communist system was heavily skewed towards dairy, vegetables and potatoes.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> we pointed out the distinct lack of vegetable matter - we were told in no uncertain terms " but that's what poor people eat, and we're not poor"
> 
> N.B. The diet under the communist system was heavily skewed towards dairy, vegetables and potatoes.



That sounds quite similar, although a different sort of timeline, to my parents generation who were brought up in the aftermath of WW1 and the depression, and then were adults during WW2 and rationing. It was only the relatively wealthy who could eat any sort of meat or poultry regularly. At least during WW2, rationing in the UK resulted in a much better diet, nutritionally-speaking, than previously for many people, especially poor pregnant women, babies and children, as it was a very healthy one overall, and they had special allowances. 
Come the end of rationing though (which BTW did not finish until 1954 - almost 10 years after WW2 ended!), everyone was more than ready, in the 'new prosperity' of the 1950s, to have loaded tables groaning with the - in hindsight somewhat-questionable - delights of industrially-produced processed foodstuffs.
And here we are today.


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## winjim (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I certainly agree with the whole culture thing @KnittyNorah - Being a child of two immigrants, one from Belgium and one from Poland. I've certainly had plenty of first-hand experience of that.
> 
> Polish and German (my paternal grandmother's family were ethnic German) hospitality is *very* generous. I've had experience of Poland before and after the Iron Curtain came down, and certainly, after, the emphasis was that if you could afford it, you ate all the things that were once difficult to get under the communist system. Which basically meant a lot of meat (mainly in the form of hams and sausages) and a lot of sweet food. Added to the fact that Polish food does tend towards the stodgy at best...
> 
> ...


Reminds me of this scene.


View: https://youtu.be/um2p4GlEbKg


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That sounds quite similar, although a different sort of timeline, to my parents generation who were brought up in the aftermath of WW1 and the depression, and then were adults during WW2 and rationing. It was only the relatively wealthy who could eat any sort of meat or poultry regularly. At least during WW2, rationing in the UK resulted in a much better diet, nutritionally-speaking, than previously for many people, especially poor pregnant women, babies and children, as it was a very healthy one overall, and they had special allowances.
> Come the end of rationing though (which BTW did not finish until 1954 - almost 10 years after WW2 ended!), everyone was more than ready, in the 'new prosperity' of the 1950s, to have loaded tables groaning with the - in hindsight somewhat-questionable - delights of industrially-produced processed foodstuffs.
> And here we are today.



I'm a keen student of WW2 history, both military and social. That includes the food of the era. 

I've got several wartime and immediately post-war cookery books, and yes, I've tried some of the recipes. They're actually not that bad to be honest, and really rather healthy. Although the ingredients are limited, low in fat and sugar, and, if made to-the-letter, the end result can be a touch bland. (N.B. That's one of the reasons that condiments were always off ration)

It's easy to see why the pendulum then swung so far the other way in the intervening decades - the early convenience products were developed by people who lived through the wartime years and had a good handle on what would be appealing to the general public.

And of course, the chorleywood process brought soft, light and white bread to everyone, a product that couldn't have been any further from the wholemeal National Loaf. Although it was in the main developed as a necessity because the UK couldn't afford to import large quantities of high protein wheat from the US and Canada.

If you'll just excuse me, I just need to go and rescue tomorrow's bread from the oven...


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## BoldonLad (3 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> That sounds quite similar, although a different sort of timeline, to my parents generation who were brought up in the aftermath of WW1 and the depression, and then were adults during WW2 and rationing. It was only the relatively wealthy who could eat any sort of meat or poultry regularly. At least during WW2, rationing in the UK resulted in a much better diet, nutritionally-speaking, than previously for many people, especially poor pregnant women, babies and children, as it was a very healthy one overall, and they had special allowances.
> Come the end of rationing though (which BTW did not finish until 1954 - almost 10 years after WW2 ended!),* everyone was more than ready, in the 'new prosperity' of the 1950s, to have loaded tables groaning with the - in hindsight somewhat-questionable - delights of industrially-produced processed foodstuffs.*
> And here we are today.



So, was there an obesity epidemic in the late 1950s/1960s? There certainly was not in the area I lived. Being of 1947 vintage, I was a teenager by the 1960's. I somehow missed the epidemic of drugs and free love too.


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## Blue Hills (3 Jun 2021)

BoldonLad said:


> So, was there an obesity epidemic in the late 1950s/1960s? There certainly was not in the area I lived. Being of 1947 vintage, I was a teenager by the 1960's. I somehow missed the epidemic of drugs and free love too.


The obesity epidemic came later.
As for the swinging sixties, fret not on what you may have missed, didn't arrive most places to any degree until the 70s.
The "scene" in london was a very small world.
Folk outside that calmed themselves with boxed meals.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I'm a keen student of WW2 history, both military and social. That includes the food of the era.
> 
> I've got several wartime and immediately post-war cookery books, and yes, I've tried some of the recipes. They're actually not that bad to be honest, and really rather healthy. Although the ingredients are limited, low in fat and sugar, and, if made to-the-letter, the end result can be a touch bland. (N.B. That's one of the reasons that condiments were always off ration)
> 
> ...



My mother's old cookbooks from WW2 and immediately post WW2 were in use in our house for a great many years, although with a much wider variety of veggies (dad was a keen gardener and a member of a couple of postal seed exchanges which had 'continental' links), butter rather than margarine, more meat, fresh eggs rather than dried, fresh milk and cream rather than National Dried Milk, and so on and so forth. Also ample herbs and spices, both fresh and dried. I remember her explaining to me, when I was abut 10 or 11, that Chorleywood process bread, soft and white, was a huge luxury for many people who'd previously had nice bread only on baking day then increasingly stale and difficult-to-chew stuff until the next week ... at the time I was questioning why people - lots of my friend's families for instance, when I went to tea with them - actually seemed to _like _soft white sliced bread from a packet. 

I think I might still have an old Be-Ro recipe book from the 1940s or 50s, somewhere ...


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I think I might still have an old Be-Ro recipe book from the 1940s or 50s, somewhere ...



Guilty as charged on that one.  Plus I have an early 50's edition of Good Housekeeping - which still does get used.

Actually, some of the older books are still eminently useful, although things do get a bit weird in the 60s and into the 70s - Margueritte Patten's "Cookery in Colour," anyone? 

Although there's definitely a trend with cookery books themselves as well, becoming more "coffee table" type in the last two or three decades or so - almost entertainment because they tie into TV series, rather than being a guide to the basics full of easy-to-make everyday recipes. I'm a big fan of the Hairy Bikers and the Two Fat Ladies - their books have lovely recipes in them, but they do require a basic knowledge of kitchen skills. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but the novice cook seems to have been left behind on the book front in recent years.

There was a series of "Sainsbury's Book of..." that came out in the mid 80s that are very good. I remember buying some of them with my pocket money as a schoolgirl, and then picking up most of the others subsequently in charity shops. My copy of "Sainsbury's Book of Baking" is *very* well used, as is my copy of "Teatime Favourites". Marks & Spencer also put out some really good cookery books, though they were a little bit more posh than the Sainsbury's ones.


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## battered (3 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> The statement was:
> >>In all of my nearly 40 years in the Food Industry I have never ever met a single person who is looking to engineer a certain Fat/Salt ratio into a product to create that pleasure point to sell more.
> 
> I don't think you need to be that clever at all to do that.
> ...


My comment was a reply to "there's someone at the top organising it and everyone else falls in line" which is pretty well the definition of a conspiracy. Especially next to the comment "the tobacco companies knew, the oil companies knew". There isn't. Like I said, no bugger I've met in 30 years is that bloody smart. On the contrary, pissups and breweries spring to mind.

As for deliberately making food addictive, I wish I could. I'd clean up. What I can do is listen to consumers and give them what they want. This is routine, obviously. In as much as "the industry knows, just like oil and tobacco" then , yes, some people eat too many biscuits. We know this. Did we set out to make this happen? No. Some people buy too many shoes. Who blames Jimmy Choo for this? Should he stop making pretty shoes and go back to safety boots so women stop spending shedloads of money? No, and the biscuit manufacturing industry isn't going to force everyone to eat unattractive food because a section of the population eat too many. The Digestive has been around since, when? Pre war, probably. Were they putting the crack cocaine in then, or is it a recent thing?


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## battered (3 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I would like to ask you - as an adult, not as a 15 yo - what the food industry is doing to help prevent food poverty in areas where many of the basic ingredients which enable them to make such huge profits often at the expense of the health of the population, are produced by low-wage earners and their families.


 Various things. I can't speak for the whole industry, but I've seen food bank donations, homeless shelter donations, staff shops selling food cheap ly, and staff being given food for free or for a nominal sum at the gate. As an example, one bakery I know of lets all its staff buy up to 3 loaves for 10p each every day. We all know the flour in there costs more than that. I ve also known companies that assist in education, work experience, and other child development stuff. Where does your food come from, etc.


> Alice and my friend live very rurally in an area of large scale arable farming and horticulture where wages are low and a large percentage of the population are recent immigrants without fluent English, living in substandard housing in villages with no public transport.
> Poor people there don't live 'on local estates' - there are none as city dwellers know them - they share cramped multi-family or multi-generational accommodation, and there is nowhere for anyone - rich or poor - to go and buy packets and tins at short notice without having their own transport.
> So the list of shop-bought ingredients was largely inaccessible to all without significant notice at least, and all of it was provided by the school although naturally pupils were welcome to bring in their own stuff if they wished. or were able.
> Poor people in that sort of area are _much _more likely to have access to fruits and vegetables which are discarded either accidentally or deliberately for a range of reasons, or which are available 'for the picking' and a blind eye turned to it at least occasionally and on a small scale. Alice knew _perfectly well _that the kids from the poorest families would have much easier access to that sort of stuff than to a jar of this, a tin of that, two packets of the other.
> As one of the lucky ones with a mother who at least worked , albeit as a cook (not precisely a high-salary profession unless one is a celebrity cook ...), by standing up to the teacher who was clearly an entrenched townie, she was actually standing up for the poorest of the children in her class, and others who will doubtless come after her. In an area of extensive arable farming and horticulture, a bunch of basic veggies can often be picked up literally off the road- or at least off farm driveways as they exit to the road, while waiting for the school bus in the morning, or while walking home from the bus in the afternoon.


I grew up in an area such as you describe. I never routinely saw any food in gateways. The only free food I picked up was roadkill.


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## battered (3 Jun 2021)

I checked - plain digestive 1892, chocolate variant 1925. The biscuits haven't changed a great deal, if at all, in that time.


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## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> The Digestive has been around since, when? Pre war, probably. Were they putting the crack cocaine in then, or is it a recent thing?



First developed in the late 1830s, but only put into mass production by McVities in the 1890s.

But they would've been significantly more expensive in relative terms than they are now. Today, things like biscuits are really cheap - you can get a ridiculous quantity of custard creams for 40p, for instance.


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## KnittyNorah (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Various things. I can't speak for the whole industry, but I've seen food bank donations, homeless shelter donations, staff shops selling food cheap ly, and staff being given food for free or for a nominal sum at the gate. As an example, one bakery I know of lets all its staff buy up to 3 loaves for 10p each every day. We all know the flour in there costs more than that. I ve also known companies that assist in education, work experience, and other child development stuff. Where does your food come from, etc.
> 
> I grew up in an area such as you describe. I never routinely saw any food in gateways. The only free food I picked up was roadkill.



The food industry would do better to ensure that those who enable it to make its huge profits are all paid a wage sufficient that they don't need to be provided with 'free' food - all the way down the production chain to the folk who work in and around the fields, and everywhere in the world. 

There is no roadkill. The area is too intensively cultivated for worthwhile edible animals and birds to survive in sufficient numbers to get killed on the roads, and in all the years I've been visiting my friend and her daughter, I've never seen one fresh rabbit or a pheasant down there. You need to move up into the hills for that, away from the hydroponic salad growers, the acres of greenhouses, the carrot and onion fields, packing stations and pumpkin fields. What was that mixed pumpkin field all about? I like to think it was someone having fun; it was certainly a lovely sight full of gradually-inflating pumpkins and squashes of a wide range of different sizes, shapes and colours. I believe the growers eventually gave them away at the county town's market and supplied them to all the charitable and similar institutions which requested them.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Various things. I can't speak for the whole industry, but I've seen food bank donations, homeless shelter donations, staff shops selling food cheap ly, and staff being given food for free or for a nominal sum at the gate. As an example, one bakery I know of lets all its staff buy up to 3 loaves for 10p each every day. We all know the flour in there costs more than that. I ve also known companies that assist in education, work experience, and other child development stuff. Where does your food come from, etc.
> 
> I grew up in an area such as you describe. I never routinely saw any food in gateways. The only free food I picked up was roadkill.



Just because you didn't doesn't mean that it's not the case.

Another rural dweller here. There are always onions, potatoes and carrots to be picked up for free from the verges - you just need to know where the bits of bumpy road and dodgy corners are. One such corner just happens to be outside my gate. 

Never mind what can be foraged from the hedgerows; blackberries, apples, filberts, walnuts... You just need to know where to look.


----------



## Fab Foodie (3 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Pringles were of course made by/for Proctor and Gamble, best known for soap powder.
> I was introduced to this factoid by a marketing course - when the big P&G did still hand-craft/extrude them.


We make the flavours for Pringles...just sayin’...


----------



## battered (3 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> The food industry would do better to ensure that those who enable it to make its huge profits are all paid a wage sufficient that they don't need to be provided with 'free' food - all the way down the production chain to the folk who work in and around the fields, and everywhere in the world.


 Who said the food workers need to be provided with free food? The last place I was at the principal beneficiaries of free food was a community cafe. You asked me what the industry did to help food poverty, I answered. The UK workers get minimum wage or better, same as those in retail, distribution, etc. As far as the chain back to the producer, there are measures in place to ensure that fair trade is practised and a fair market rate is adhered to. KP foods, part of Intersnack, are very good at this.



> There is no roadkill. The area is too intensively cultivated for worthwhile edible animals and birds to survive in sufficient numbers to get killed on the roads


I don't believe you. Sorry.


----------



## Reynard (3 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> I don't believe you. Sorry.



How can you possibly refute that if you don't live in the same neck of the woods? What's true for you isn't necessarily true for someone else.

Don't judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes and all that...


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## matticus (4 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> We make the flavours for Pringles...just sayin’...


So do you _deny _putting addictive flavourings in food??


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## battered (4 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> How can you possibly refute that if you don't live in the same neck of the woods? What's true for you isn't necessarily true for someone else.
> 
> Don't judge until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes and all that...


Yes, I get that, but I don't live in one place and never leave. I'm not refuting anything, I'm saying I don't believe it.
I've been around longer than I care to remember and I have worked and lived everywhere. The 4 corners of Britain, also France and Ireland. Have I lived in their particular village? Probably not, but I like to think close enough, at some point. In all these places as soon as you get out of the inner city rabbits are ubiquitous. Do I believe there's some Shangri-La where fresh produce abounds yet there are no rabbits? No. Plentiful food, but no pests. Unlikely. It's like when I go to food factories and look at the pest records and find no rodent activity for a year. "No, we never get mice". Oh really? All this food, doors opening and closing, and not one mouse, ever? Come on.

So, maybe it's true. Do I believe it? Not until I see it.


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## Reynard (4 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Yes, I get that, but I don't live in one place and never leave. I'm not refuting anything, I'm saying I don't believe it.
> I've been around longer than I care to remember and I have worked and lived everywhere. The 4 corners of Britain, also France and Ireland. Have I lived in their particular village? Probably not, but I like to think close enough, at some point. In all these places as soon as you get out of the inner city rabbits are ubiquitous. Do I believe there's some Shangri-La where fresh produce abounds yet there are no rabbits? No. Plentiful food, but no pests. Unlikely. It's like when I go to food factories and look at the pest records and find no rodent activity for a year. "No, we never get mice". Oh really? All this food, doors opening and closing, and not one mouse, ever? Come on.
> 
> So, maybe it's true. Do I believe it? Not until I see it.



Actually, the rabbit population is in the doldrums at the moment due to mixy - certainly in this region at any rate. I don't know what it's like elsewhere.

There's no shame in saying you don't know, you know. Nor is there any shame in taking someone at their word.

Other pests? Certainly. There aren't as many rabbits around as usual judging by the distinct lack of poops in my orchard (sometimes that can be inches deep as rabbits use specific areas for their latrines) and the fact that neither of my cats has dragged in any little ones this year, but muntjac deer, pigeons and assorted rodents for sure. Plenty of pheasant and partridge though.

But then this is a mix of arable farmland, pockets of woodland and with beef herds out on the Hundred Foot washes. I don't live in market garden country, but I can well imagine that the high prevalence of greenhouses, polytunnels and labour-intensive agriculture does have an impact on the ecosystem as a whole.


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## KnittyNorah (4 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> I grew up in an area such as you describe. I never routinely saw any food in gateways. The only free food I picked up was roadkill.


I find that hard to believe, but there again when I was growing up, there was a great deal I didn't routinely notice about the area.



battered said:


> I don't believe you. Sorry.


Are you calling me a liar? If so, why apologise?


----------



## mudsticks (4 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> This was touched on in the documentary - that it's not a deliberate thing to hit that pleasure point, but it apparently crops up as an unintended consequence of stuff being run past panels of tasters / product reviewers etc. Same sort of thing applies to sugar / fat ratios.


Thing is our palates haven't really evolved to react sensibly to the food that we've surrounded ourselves with now.

Finding a cache of honey, or catching a meaty creature, was a rarity to be exploited and enjoyed fulsomely back in the day.


Now were surrounded by more easy calories than we know what to do with.

Even globally we've passed a point where more people are suffering I'll health due to an over supply rather than calorie deficit.

A triumph for modern agriculture you might say.
Except that type of agriculture is harming both human and planetary healt

If we're smart (!) we could make agriculture part of the solution, rather than the problem.

We need to recentre good food, and farming , and good nutrition in public policy.

Food should be yummy, and enjoyable, and do us good too.



battered said:


> Who said the food workers need to be provided with free food? The last place I was at the principal beneficiaries of free food was a community cafe. You asked me what the industry did to help food poverty, I answered. The UK workers get minimum wage or better, same as those in retail, distribution, etc. As far as the chain back to the producer, there are measures in place to ensure that fair trade is practised and a fair market rate is adhered to. KP foods, part of Intersnack, are very good at this.
> 
> 
> I don't believe you. Sorry.



A fair market rate is not always adhered to, by any measure.

Some dairy farmers for instance, are paid less than the cost of production at certain times of the year.

The grocer code adjudicator that is supposed to oversee fair dealing, principally with supermarket buyers, is well known for being toothless and acting very infrequently.

The farm gate price for food has stagnated over many years.

So much buying power in so few hands - the supermarkets hold all the power, especially around fresh produce.

What will happen when the EU farmer supports are tapered off and removed in five or so years time remains to be seen.

But future prospects are looking a bit bleak for many farmers right now.

Especially once they're up against unregulated imports, produced to lower than EU standards.

Which we may well have to agree to under these 'wonderful' new trade deals we're trying to do unilaterally.

Where we certainly don't 'hold all the cards'


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## Reynard (4 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> A triumph for modern agriculture you might say. Except that type of agriculture is harming both human and planetary health
> 
> If we're smart (!) we could make agriculture part of the solution, rather than the problem.
> 
> ...



Can't disagree with you there. 

Even if it's something as simple as persuading people to grow tomatoes and herbs in window boxes. But I'd love to find a community project where I can pass on my kitchen skills to others.

BTW, re the veg boxes we spoke about a while back, I've found a lovely chap who has a veg stall near the village rec ground. All locally grown by him and his mate. He has the best leeks and savoy cabbages ever, and his kale totally won me over.


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## mudsticks (4 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Can't disagree with you there.
> 
> Even if it's something as simple as persuading people to grow tomatoes and herbs in window boxes. But I'd love to find a community project where I can pass on my kitchen skills to others.
> 
> BTW, re the veg boxes we spoke about a while back, I've found a lovely chap who has a veg stall near the village rec ground. All locally grown by him and his mate. He has the best leeks and savoy cabbages ever, and his kale totally won me over.



Can't beat it fresh, it tastes good so you want to eat more of it.

Some of my customers reckon I've got them addicted 


There seems to be a big upswing in all things local and sustainable food production right now.

Especially among the youth..
So good to see.

Of course there are barriers such as access to land to farm, finance ,and even training in how to do it.

But I managed to become a fully fledged farmer starting with nothing more than £300 in the bank and the tools in the garden shed..

Oh and a tonne of work, lots of 'luck' and goodwill and community support.

Its the way forward for feeding ourselves better imo.

Cut out the extractive middleman.

Affordable good food for you, a living for me..

Everyone wins, apart from poor old T3sc0 - oh boo hoo.

Of course the hard bit can be getting this good food into the hands of those who need it most.
Its tricky to persuade very low income households that this good stuff is for them too, even if the price is within reach .

We have to tread carefully, so as not to come over prescriptive 'nanny knows best' .
And show and tell how to use this stuff, for those who didn't grow up with it.

But the advantages to health, and social outcomes have been proven, when regular fresh food gets into more economically deprived areas.

My son goes a gleaning on larger veg farms with a local organisation that makes up low or no cost veg boxes for low income households in our nearby city..

Seems much better than it going to waste.


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## battered (4 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Are you calling me a liar?


Absolutely not. As you said above "I find that hard to believe." .


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## Reynard (4 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Of course the hard bit can be getting this good food into the hands of those who need it most.
> Its tricky to persuade very low income households that this good stuff is for them too, even if the price is within reach .
> 
> We have to tread carefully, so as not to come over prescriptive 'nanny knows best' .
> ...



It's all down to education again, isn't it?

One of the interesting points that came out of the "Hugh's Fat Fight" series that aired a couple of years ago was that in lower income areas, one of the main reasons people bought fewer vegetables was the fact that they didn't really know what to do with them.

It's the old "teach a man to fish" thing...

Something like the old "Food Facts" leaflets that the Ministry of Food did during WW2 would be ideal - well, a modern version thereof. They taught people about what was available cheaply and in season, what to do with it etc. And, of course, get the little 'uns taught at school and stuff.


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## mudsticks (5 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> It's all down to education again, isn't it?
> 
> One of the interesting points that came out of the "Hugh's Fat Fight" series that aired a couple of years ago was that in lower income areas, one of the main reasons people bought fewer vegetables was the fact that they didn't really know what to do with them.
> 
> ...


Yup I agree, education is a big part of it for sure, and there are lots of good hearted people out there getting involved in community initiatives.

And much more could be done in schools, and school food could be a lot better.

In some places provision is good, others not so much. 

Other countries have far higher standards around public procurement, and institutional food.

But things like poor housing, and household incomes near impossible to live on are also in there too.

You need some facilities, time and a budget to create healthy and tasty meals. 

Not everyone has those, sadly.


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## Blue Hills (5 Jun 2021)

By some mysterious process (a stray google news alert - i don't have an alert on donuts) this arrived in my inbox from a place with even more of a problem than us this very morning.
National Doughnut day?
https://eu.palmbeachpost.com/story/...-beach-countys-nude-doughnut-shop/7531451002/


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## Reynard (5 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> By some mysterious process (a stray google news alert - i don't have an alert on donuts) this arrived in my inbox from a place with even more of a problem than us this very morning.
> National Doughnut day?
> https://eu.palmbeachpost.com/story/...-beach-countys-nude-doughnut-shop/7531451002/


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## winjim (5 Jun 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> By some mysterious process (a stray google news alert - i don't have an alert on donuts) this arrived in my inbox from a place with even more of a problem than us this very morning.
> National Doughnut day?
> https://eu.palmbeachpost.com/story/...-beach-countys-nude-doughnut-shop/7531451002/


You don't have an alert on _doughnuts_...


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## Reynard (5 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Yup I agree, education is a big part of it for sure, and there are lots of good hearted people out there getting involved in community initiatives.
> 
> And much more could be done in schools, and school food could be a lot better.
> 
> ...



What you say just underlines how much has to change - everywhere - in order to start tackling the issue. Recent government initiatives are no more than a sparkly sticking plaster that look good but don't really address the underlying problems.


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## Milzy (5 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> It's all down to education again, isn't it?
> 
> One of the interesting points that came out of the "Hugh's Fat Fight" series that aired a couple of years ago was that in lower income areas, one of the main reasons people bought fewer vegetables was the fact that they didn't really know what to do with them.
> 
> ...


It’s not all education. There’s so many highly educated people who are fat & so many wealthy people who can afford their own healthy chefs but they are still greedy fat bar-stewards.


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## Reynard (5 Jun 2021)

Milzy said:


> It’s not all education. There’s so many highly educated people who are fat & so many wealthy people who can afford their own healthy chefs but they are still greedy fat bar-stewards.



Maybe it's not just about getting the message across, but actually making it stick.

I think we're all guilty of ignoring good advice at times. It's part of being Human.


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## AuroraSaab (8 Jun 2021)

It's a bit of everything, I reckon. Lots of people don't know how to cook from scratch, but it's easy to learn. Trouble is, convenience food is quicker, often cheaper, and often pretty scrummy. It's also widely available. 

As a child we didn't routinely have puddings after tea - cakes were expensive and, unless my mum baked, Soreen was the nearest we got. Nowadays fancy cakes and puds are cheaper than buying an apple so it's not surprising our willpower fails us so much of the time.

I read a book by Gary Taubes, called something like Why We Are Fat. He makes the point that the obesity issue began in the 60's and 70's when food producers struck on the idea of ultra palatability - they realised that the combination of high sugar, high fat, and salt in processed foods made them really, really palatable, almost to the point of addiction. Thus it went from just a donut to a cream-filled, chocolate dipped, sprinkle covered donut. And mass production made these foods really cheap, especially in America. 

Unless we go back to making 'real' food cheaper than processed food I think it's going to remain a challenge to get people to stick to healthy eating. The benefit is a rational, long term one, whereas eating a huge Costco muffin is an emotional decision with immediate gratification.


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## Blue Hills (8 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> I read a book by Gary Taubes, called something like Why We Are Fat. He makes the point that the obesity issue began in the 60's and 70's when food producers struck on the idea of ultra palatability - they realised that the combination of high sugar, high fat, and salt in processed foods made them really, really palatable, almost to the point of addiction.


Quite - haven't read the book but undoubtedly true.
And despite this some on the thread are maintaining that the big food companies discovered/struck on no such thing.
My mum - sort of came of age as an adult/parent in the 60s after a younger life lived in austerity (lasted a bloody long time in britain if you count the 30s/the war/rationing into the 50s) lives on junk, or tries to, seems to have an almost religious faith in the wonder of manufactured gubbins.


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## lazybloke (8 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> ....whereas eating a huge Costco muffin is an emotional decision with immediate gratification.



OMG, those Costco Danish pastries are mahoosive too. My better half brought back a tray of them from a recent shopping trip, which is odd because she never eats such snacks normally.

They're now individually wrapped and frozen. Once a week we defrost one and share it over morning coffee. I reckon that pack will last 2-3 months as long as I don't get greedy - that is the risk.


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## mudsticks (8 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> It's a bit of everything, I reckon. Lots of people don't know how to cook from scratch, but it's easy to learn. Trouble is, convenience food is quicker, often cheaper, and often pretty scrummy. It's also widely available.
> 
> As a child we didn't routinely have puddings after tea - cakes were expensive and, unless my mum baked, Soreen was the nearest we got. Nowadays fancy cakes and puds are cheaper than buying an apple so it's not surprising our willpower fails us so much of the time.
> 
> ...



Corn syrup - the overproduction of it in the States was a big driver in kickstarting the 'obesity epidemic' - Its production was subsidised - there was too much of it and manufacturers were encouraged to put it in everything.

Of course then people became used to everything tasting that sweet.

Of course it wasn't / isn't the only cause.

But it is undoubtedly the case, that much, if not all of our 'cheap and convenient- 'instant gratification' food also happens to be high calorie and also happens to be the product of industrialised agriculture ..

Its no conspiracy, or underhand dealing by food manufacturers they're just operating in a market that rewards them with profit for producing as cheaply as possible, and selling as high volumes as possible.

They're just 'doing business' 

Turning that around so we have healthier diets is going to take some effort and concerted will on all our parts.

Unfortunately 'will power' around food is in somewhat short supply for many of us.

We're programmed by our hunter gatherer instincts to maximise calorie intake, minimise movement


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## AuroraSaab (8 Jun 2021)

lazybloke said:


> OMG, those Costco Danish pastries are mahoosive too.



Anything from the Costco bakery is the food of the gods. I don't eat the muffins because I'm outfaced by that volume of food, but the brownies are probably the best I've ever eaten and the scones are really nice too. We always say we'll freeze them but they somehow never make it to the freezer. I often end up giving some to friends and neighbours just to stop me eating them all. 



mudsticks said:


> Corn syrup - the overproduction of it in the States was a big driver in kickstarting the 'obesity epidemic' - Its production was subsidised - there was too much of it and manufacturers were encouraged to put it in everything.
> 
> Of course then people became used to everything tasting that sweet.



I think Taubes's book mentions corn syrup. It's in everything over there. There's also the issue of how powerful the farming lobby and food manufacturers are in the States. They have such a lot of influence on policy that getting regs changed seems near impossible. Plus the US has that whole freedom to eat what you like and anti-Nanny-State attitude. 

My friends who have family in the States say fast food is really cheap there at the moment and many families only use the kitchen for breakfast, eating out most nights. I guess because they don't have a NHS the cost of obesity isn't borne by the State as much as over here so there is less incentive to address it.


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jun 2021)

AuroraSaab said:


> I think Taubes's book mentions corn syrup. It's in everything over there. There's also the issue of how powerful the farming lobby and food manufacturers are in the States. They have such a lot of influence on policy that getting regs changed seems near impossible. Plus the US has that whole freedom to eat what you like and anti-Nanny-State attitude.
> 
> My friends who have family in the States say fast food is really cheap there at the moment and many families only use the kitchen for breakfast, eating out most nights. I guess because they don't have a NHS the cost of obesity isn't borne by the State as much as over here so there is less incentive to address it.



Yup and our eating habits aren't so far behind.

Add in to that, the free access to our markets by the likes of the US with this hyper cheap, but low nutrition food..

Hmm, where will we be in 5 or 20 years time.??

But it's difficult to steer things in a healthier direction without coming over all puritanical, 'fun sponge'

Fresh veg and fruit production receives very little if any gov support in this country.

Unless we start addressing that, and find ways of getting more of the good stuff into peoples plates it's not looking great for the health of the nation.

I grew up eating lots of fresh veg from the family garden and allotment, my kids did too.


So a diet high in veg (not vegetarian) is the norm round these parts.

Its not like we never have any other treats, or whatever, but we're so full up on veg and other healthier food by the time a piece of cake or chocolate is on offer, that it's easier to do the moderation thing with all that..

Plus of course growing lots of veg to sell, is fairly strenuous / good for burning calories too...


----------



## Reynard (8 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Yup and our eating habits aren't so far behind.
> 
> Add in to that, the free access to our markets by the likes of the US with this hyper cheap, but low nutrition food..
> 
> ...



I dunno... Healthy food doesn't have to be boring or puritanical. Although alas, that seems to be the perception of it. I do think this perception has to be tackled, and that includes coming down hard on the charlatans who peddle all sorts of whacky diets and detoxes and things like that. It just skews what people think of as healthy.

But I totally get what you say about the cakes and desserts. When you've had a proper meal, there's no way you can wedge in pudding as well. Well, maybe some fruit. I had half a punnet of raspberries after my supper.

Which was a home made salmon quiche (steamed salmon, fresh dill, lemon, pepper, eggs, half fat creme fraiche, grana padano cheese and a pastry base) plus some lovely sliced tomatoes and buttered leeks on the side.


----------



## Fab Foodie (8 Jun 2021)

I’ve just had 4 bits of KFC original chicken a bag of fries and a Tropicana juice...just sayin’....


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## Reynard (8 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> Want a bet?
> 
> I can _always_ manage to wedge in a pudding
> 
> Sadly not always permitted.



Bet's off, I'm afraid. 

When you're my height, there's not quite as much space in the old hollow legs, you see...


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> I dunno... Healthy food doesn't have to be boring or puritanical. Although alas, that seems to be the perception of it. I do think this perception has to be tackled, and that includes coming down hard on the charlatans who peddle all sorts of whacky diets and detoxes and things like that. It just skews what people think of as healthy.
> 
> But I totally get what you say about the cakes and desserts. When you've had a proper meal, there's no way you can wedge in pudding as well. Well, maybe some fruit. I had half a punnet of raspberries after my supper.
> 
> Which was a home made salmon quiche (steamed salmon, fresh dill, lemon, pepper, eggs, half fat creme fraiche, grana padano cheese and a pastry base) plus some lovely sliced tomatoes and buttered leeks on the side.



Nom nom 🙂

But regarding heathy being puritanical??


Absolutely not.

This is the point,
Healthy food is, or at least can be totally delicious.

Don't send me into raptures about the delights of pea shoots, right now, or artichokes (globe not Jerusalem) steeped in butter or a good oil, or the near addictive qualities of winter chicories , with baked beetroot and hard boiled eggs.

But at the same time, you do have to know about, have access to, and have experienced these things..

These are the trad low income, dare I say 'peasant' foods of old.

But they've largely been over ridden by bland, industrially produced pap, made of cheap carbs, and cheap fats, to make us unwell, and desultory and uninterested in our food.

Which of course will mark me out as some kind of 'foodie snob' in some folks eyes.

But good nutrition, and health, and deliciousness and complexity used to be, and could still be, vital parts of a good food system

_if _we choose that way..



Dogtrousers said:


> Want a bet?
> 
> I can _always_ manage to wedge in a pudding
> 
> Sadly not always permitted.



Yebbut, for many of us 'Pudding stomach' is separate to the rest of it anyhows..☺

Unlike @Reynard I have very loong legs, there's always room for a 'wafer thin mint'...


----------



## Reynard (9 Jun 2021)

Funny you should say about the blandness of prepared food @mudsticks - that's the most common verdict I come to with the bits that I do buy when it pops up on yellow sticker. A lot of it is, to my palate, woefully under-seasoned; it does my head in when they take good strong flavours and turn them into something that tastes like wet cardboard.

Although I don't buy that much to be fair, and the last few years I've been consciously buying less and less (outside of things like really good pork pies and sausage rolls) because I'm finding that it just doesn't appeal to me. I'd much rather cook the same thing from scratch at home.

I let the other yellow sticker regulars squabble over the ready meals and oven ready stuff. 

Addictive... Home made hummus with looooooads of garlic and lemon and good olive oil, preferably with pitta bread still hot from the oven. 

OK, sometimes I do have a pudding - usually a fruit crumble - but then I'll have a much lighter main meal to compensate.


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Funny you should say about the blandness of prepared food @mudsticks - that's the most common verdict I come to with the bits that I do buy when it pops up on yellow sticker. A lot of it is, to my palate, woefully under-seasoned; it does my head in when they take good strong flavours and turn them into something that tastes like wet cardboard.
> 
> Although I don't buy that much to be fair, and the last few years I've been consciously buying less and less (outside of things like really good pork pies and sausage rolls) because I'm finding that it just doesn't appeal to me. I'd much rather cook the same thing from scratch at home.
> 
> ...


Mmmm All this talk of food is making me hungry..

Left over crumble for breakfast is a good start to the day


----------



## PaulSB (9 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Yup I agree, education is a big part of it for sure, and there are lots of good hearted people out there getting involved in community initiatives.
> 
> And much more could be done in schools, and school food could be a lot better.
> 
> ...



I'm very pleased to see you've mentioned this because I feel it's at least an equal part of the issue and quite possibly the key point.

I'm 66 and as a child I don't think we ever ate processed food or ready meals. We lived rurally and my mother walked to the shops several times a week. My mother worked as well. The nearest supermarket was literally an hour by bus in the town where I went to school. I can remember being envious of friends who lived in the town and whose mothers could shop at J.Sainsbury.

My mother was an excellent cook but interestingly she allowed me to leave home with no culinary skills whatsoever. I was a man, I'd find a wife.

My wife and I are good cooks and would always try to ensure the kids had freshly prepared food. We both worked full time earning decent salaries, there was always "a well stocked food cupboard." We had three children in seven years and there was often no time to cook at night especially when we had all those wonderfully middle-class after school activities, homework, swimming, etc. etc. to see to. We ate processed foods and ready meals often.

I can fully understand why harassed parents working full time on minimum wage find the solutions open to them are ready meals, KFC, fish 'n' chips. These are households which don't have, possibly don't understand, the magical well-stocked food cupboard. Such a thing is s luxury.

I'm confident my wife and I could eat for a month from our freezers and cupboards. How lucky we are when so many households are not.

Obesity is a significant and increasing problem which is storing up huge long-term health issues. Until we begin to address the many inequalities which exist in our society the possibilities of successfully changing this are very limited.


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## mudsticks (9 Jun 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I'm very pleased to see you've mentioned this because I feel it's at least an equal part of the issue and quite possibly the key point.
> 
> I'm 66 and as a child I don't think we ever ate processed food or ready meals. We lived rurally and my mother walked to the shops several times a week. My mother worked as well. The nearest supermarket was literally an hour by bus in the town where I went to school. I can remember being envious of friends who lived in the town and whose mothers could shop at J.Sainsbury.
> 
> ...


Yup , deprivation of many sorts can lead to poor diets, malnutrition, and conversely at the same time obesity.

I

Yet we don't even have a right to good food, it's not regarded as a 'public good' in the same way as healthcare and education are.

Better diets could even save a lot on healthcare.

Tackling poverty, and making good food available to everyone, should be key areas of governments duties .

Its vital to a populations wellbeing.

But it's just mostly left to campaigning groups to push for change.

There's a Liverpool MP trying to get an early day motion through about the right to food at the moment.
https://agroecology.eaction.online/right-to-food


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## Rocky (9 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> I’ve just had 4 bits of KFC original chicken a bag of fries and a Tropicana juice...just sayin’....


Wot no chicken nuggets? 

If you are not eating them, how do you expect the rest of us to?


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## Fab Foodie (9 Jun 2021)

Rocky said:


> Wot no chicken nuggets?
> 
> If you are not eating them, how do you expect the rest of us to?


Man cannot live by nugget alone....as any fule kno....


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## Fab Foodie (9 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Yup , deprivation of many sorts can lead to poor diets, malnutrition, and conversely at the same time obesity.
> 
> I
> 
> ...


Judging by the rise in food banks the govt. doesn’t even care if people have food let alone the quality of it....
We have so far to go....


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## mudsticks (9 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Judging by the rise in food banks the govt. doesn’t even care if people have food let alone the quality of it....
> We have so far to go....



Sadly I fear you're correct.

All part of the "Keep em hungry and desperate, so they haven't got the energy to start a revolution" policy..

Oh well , I'd better get back to my radical roots now..

Last of the aubergines to plant 

Too hot to work in the tunnels much after 10 am right now.


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## mustang1 (9 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> An app? Bugger off! I use an A5 notepad and a pen. An app. I ask you.


What he said. I've used app in the past but too much hassle. I've used a e-diary (notepad.exe, google keeps, ipad Notes, whatever). But I find those electronic notes get lost among all my other notes. Although I do not any more, when I did take notes, I found a pen and physical diary was the best. I used to carry a small rucksack with me (instead of bulging pockets to carry wallet, phone, several bunches of keys) so popped the diary/pen in there.

Someone further up the thread mentioned moods during binging sessions and that's a good thing to take note of along with your food intake. But I no longer need to keep a diary as I know what the problem is (I think): a stressful job means whenever I'm working, I'm eating junk. On Friday evenings and weekends (well, until sunday evening), I eat very little junk food but still more than I think (it's usually milkshakes with the kids of if (well, every weekend) my SO has made a delicious desert.

During work hours, the only way I know to avoid eating junk is to be so busy that I have no time to eat anything but that's unsustainable. Therefore I have (_have?_) to eat junk up to a certain point where I think "bloody heck mate you've gotta back off now!"

There's this film I watch frequently: LBS. It's about this guy who just cannot stop eating but there is a way he finds to get around his eating habit (I won't spoil it for you) and certainly worth watching as it may help you. The solution is difficult to implement in our daily lives though...


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## Lookrider (9 Jun 2021)

Is it will power and the corporates food industry that are the factors in this?
My own personal experience is that good food is cheaper than shelf food and easy to follow menus are widely available on everyone's telephone 
A lot of these websites actually show a price comparison as too how much it costs 

I have fortunately always been relatively slim so maybe I suffer a bit of " it's easy for me too say that " 

28 years ago i would not have ever thanked you for a cake/sweets ..and like others said...if I went out for a meal I would rather have a larger starter than a cake at the end
Then I was really poorly fir almost a year eventually hospitalised 
I was diagnosed with coealics disease and told I would have to go on a gluten free diet ..I had not heard if this nor had a lot if the hospital staff 
So overnight my own diet changed dramatically. Out went all the things we like . A lot of my basic foods were now made at home as the supermarket had nothing advertised gluten free and looking at every label was extremely time taking 
Most nights out were restricted to the very limited places that knew about gluten in foods 
But my will power had to prevail and it still does ...I know not everyone has will power but if your health at risk you must try harder somehow 
The downside of my illness meant I lost lot if weight and started to eat cake chocolate etc to put weight on 
This worked obviously but that addiction us still with me now although it is not extreme ..but it does show that you can get " addicted " as I never ate such things in tbe past 
But also I was doing tbe fred whitton challenge 2 years back ..to loose weight I again went on a diet and out went all the cakes etc ..it was hard for around 2 weeks then them endorphins ir whatever it is make you eat crap was filtered out and I totally lost the feeling to eat such things 
I went back on them to gain weight again after tbe race 
Now fast frd to the last 5 years and the supermarkets have seen the gap in the GF market and again the GF shelves are awash with all the rubbish I dont really want .pizza pies cakes pastry biscuits 

I guess the moral of my own story is that 

Will power is very important and stay focused and you will stick to your diet 

The food industy are very good at providing an easy fix .as they did with the GF shelves appearing ..so the earlier reports about them "corrupting " us in the 50/60s may well be true ..

My wife is a health nurse and tries to get people to loose weight 
They routinely come to her saying they try this n that diet and that they have been good..when in fact the list of foods that they ate in the week before is beyond reason for some one claiming to be trying 
A lot of her patients are regulay asking for pills etc and now theres even injections available ...so no chance really of anyone testing there will power when they " think" these pills and injections are there 

As a footnote..now that a GF diet is fashionable please do not think that it is a way to loose weight 
I am slim as I have a food disease that effects my weight . Even though I happen to have a great appetite itd the disease that keeps me slim 

I heard many times over the years famy/friends saying there going on a GF diet to.look like me ? 
Unfirtunaltly that's not the case .so please do not think you will loose weight on a GF diet


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## mustang1 (9 Jun 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Let us take a 20 year old through the next 30 years. At that age they haven’t yet bought a car, they are fairly active most days. The balance between what they eat and drink and activity levels is fairly balanced and weight stable. Then they settle into a full time job, buy a car, maybe get married. Activity levels decline, but food intake doesn’t. They put on 2.5 lbs a year, barely noticable. Sure there’s a bit more body fat but they look not a lot different to the year before. Roll on 30 years and they’ve put on 75 lbs. That is 5 stone 5 lbs they’ve put on over 30 years.
> 
> Lets go back to a single year. Assume it’s 365 days. So daily intake x 365 = 2500 x 365 = 912,500 calories over the year. Now they have put 2.5 lbs on. So the excess is 2.5 * 3,500 = 8750 calories over a year. That translates to (8750 / 365) 24 calories per day, just under 1% of daily intake.
> 
> It doesn’t take much for weight to build up over the years given a small imbalance.


I've been giving this some thought over the years. When at school, we were there for 6 or 7 hours a day. We took regular breaks for plytime and lunchtime and we were always active playing various games. We had to go to different classrooms for each less which meant we had to walk or climb stairs every 1.5 hours. We had scheduled PE classes twice a week, about 3 hours. Due to those short hours, and the fact we were kids with little responsibilities, after school we met with other friends and went on the bike or played football or whatever. I even used to go out running just for the heck of it, most days. If I wanted to get somewhere, I went on the bus (which meant a walk, or run, to the bus stop). Or I went on the train, another walk to the train station. Or I simply got my bike out.

Now, many years later, it's no longer a 6 or 7 hour day "at the office", it's more like "at least 10". That's 5 days a week. Outside of office hours there is on-call. Then on weekends there's more work. While you're still on-call. You have to lookafter house stuff, car stuff, paperwork, deal with unforeseen things. You're happy when you take 2 or 3 weeks holiday out of the 52 weeks you have. You have more money than when you was a kid so to the heck with making dinner, I'll just get something from outside, just this once. You _could _walk to the shops which is a 20 minute round-trip, or take the car which is 4 minutes. I could spend money to goto the gym but at the end of the day, who wants that long slog - gyms are for fashionable types anyway.

The only training I get is bike-commuting to work. Leisure/athletic cycling is seen as being selfish and not contributing to housework (that's changed now since I got my SO a bike).

I'm not entirely complaining. LIfe is like that. It's the societal norm. Most people want a bigger house, a bigger car or two, all while denying they want to be part of the rat-race. And by "bigger", of course they really mean "more expensive to show off". And when one confronts such a lifestyle, the response is along the lines of "well you dont want to live like a tramp" as if those are the only two options.

So then, it's society that has got a lot to answer for, and society is made up of people like us, including me, and I am part of the problem. Thankfully, I have told my kids to always make exercise a part of their life, even when they're older and they think they have no time. Hopefully they won't fall into the same trap I did.


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## Low Gear Guy (9 Jun 2021)

There are a lot of people that drive to their office job or work from home and do not get any exercise during the working day. When this is combined with unhealthy ready meals or takeaways the result is weight gain. The situation is getting worse due to food delivery services and longer working hours.


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## Reynard (9 Jun 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I can fully understand why harassed parents working full time on minimum wage find the solutions open to them are ready meals, KFC, fish 'n' chips. These are households which don't have, possibly don't understand, the magical well-stocked food cupboard. Such a thing is s luxury.
> 
> I'm confident my wife and I could eat for a month from our freezers and cupboards. How lucky we are when so many households are not.
> 
> Obesity is a significant and increasing problem which is storing up huge long-term health issues. Until we begin to address the many inequalities which exist in our society the possibilities of successfully changing this are very limited.



My food cupboard and freezer is much the same as yours. For me though, there is a practical reason, as I live right out in the boonies, and just going out for a couple of items is a bit pointless. So I have things in like long life milk, bread flour, dried yeast, rice, pasta, canned goods, seasonings etc.

Although it doesn't have to be an expensive exercise to keep good stock in. I've been taking good advantage on clearance offers on the "weird brands" that the supermarket got in last year when things were hard to come by, as well as looking in the green bins in Tesco for damaged goods / end of line / short dated etc. I've been picking up things like flour at 15p a kilo, pasta at 37p a kilo, basmati rice at 66p a kilo etc. I got lucky with job lots of olive oil, leaf tea, Polish sausages and tubes of tomato paste recently as well. It's all about keeping an eye out and thinking ahead.

A lot of what is in my freezer has been picked up on yellow sticker.

If I can't be bothered to cook, I tend to fall back on the time-honoured jacket potato, toasted sandwich or a cheese omelette or something. Take aways don't feature at all, because I'm well outside the delivery radius, and it's a faff to go out and get one.


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## KnittyNorah (9 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> If I can't be bothered to cook, I tend to fall back on the time-honoured jacket potato, toasted sandwich or a cheese omelette or something.



So do I - and there is nothing in the least bit wrong about eg a potato with a proteinaceous filling and veggies or salad on the side. It is easy, cheap, tasty and nutritious.
Sadly, for many, even scrambled eggs 'classify' as cooking - and are beyond their skillset.


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## Reynard (9 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> So do I - and there is nothing in the least bit wrong about eg a potato with a proteinaceous filling and veggies or salad on the side. It is easy, cheap, tasty and nutritious.
> Sadly, for many, even scrambled eggs 'classify' as cooking - and are beyond their skillset.



A jacket potato with baked beans and cheese is the default, but it's a good vehicle for leftover curry or chilli or tuna as well. 

When Delia did her "How to Cook" series about a decade ago, she actually started with how to boil an egg. I remember the indignant outrage, but I reckon you're right, because she did have a point...


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## KnittyNorah (9 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> They are for me.
> 
> Fried, yes. Boiled, yes. Even poached at a pinch. But I can never get scrambled eggs right. They are either a bit uncooked and gloopy or separate and go watery. Not to mention the sticking to the pan business.



I greatly dislike eggs as 'eggs' ie a separate yolk and white - but mixed up altogether, then stirred into hot rice, or trickled into a clear broth, or as an omelette - or as scrambled eggs - they're fine. And the quickest, easiest way of scrambling - AND the one that minimises washing up - is, I am convinced, _in the microwave. _I wouldn't do them any other way now!


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## Reynard (9 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> I greatly dislike eggs as 'eggs' ie a separate yolk and white - but mixed up altogether, then stirred into hot rice, or trickled into a clear broth, or as an omelette - or as scrambled eggs - they're fine. And the quickest, easiest way of scrambling - AND the one that minimises washing up - is, I am convinced, _in the microwave. _I wouldn't do them any other way now!



Aaaaah, egg fried rice is one of my guilty pleasures... Eggs, rice, scallions, salt and pepper - food of the gods, I tell you. 

But the secret is to use lard or dripping, NOT oil.

Mind you, I do tend to team it up with lots of steamed veg on the side, usually with chilli, sesame and soy. And (home made) pickled ginger.


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## Fab Foodie (9 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Aaaaah, egg fried rice is one of my guilty pleasures... Eggs, rice, scallions, salt and pepper - food of the gods, I tell you.
> 
> But the secret is to use lard or dripping, NOT oil.
> 
> Mind you, I do tend to team it up with lots of steamed veg on the side, usually with chilli, sesame and soy. And (home made) pickled ginger.


Interesting ... if Lard or Dripping was an ingredient in a ready-meal....


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## battered (9 Jun 2021)

Lookrider said:


> Is it will power and the corporates food industry that are the factors in this?
> My own personal experience is that good food is cheaper than shelf food and easy to follow menus are widely available these websites actually show a price comparison as too how much it costs


ALL food is outrageously cheap now. I buy very little processed food but the other day I bought some ready made flaky pastry, It was 75p. I'm not kidding. 75p. I have made 2 meals from it. I know how to make the stuff, heaven knows I have worked in enough factories manufacturing it to know *precisely* how it works. The butter to put in it costs half of that. I'm going to mess about putting 72 folds in pastry for 75p? Jog on. The same applies to most people, to a greater or lesser degree. I spent an hour earlier chopping vegetables for soup. Who else does this? A tin of the stuff is 35p.



> The food industy are very good at providing an easy fix .as they did with the GF shelves appearing ..so the earlier reports about them "corrupting " us in the 50/60s may well be true ..


This old chestnut again. The food industry are corrupting us. Listen, I've spent 30+ years in food manufacturing, at all levels, and trust me, nobody is that bloody smart. The best we can ever manage is occasionally selling stuff that people want to buy, even that it a bit of a stretch. We cut out E numbers when people wanted us to, we went low fat, likewise, salt reduction, if today's buzzword is GF then give us a year or two and we *might* get there. But manipulate the market? I should be so lucky.


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## Reynard (9 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Interesting ... if Lard or Dripping was an ingredient in a ready-meal....



You'd be bloody crucified...

I got taught this by a Chinese lady I know. It really does make the difference in the taste.


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## Reynard (9 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> The same applies to most people, to a greater or lesser degree. I spent an hour earlier chopping vegetables for soup. Who else does this? A tin of the stuff is 35p.



35p soup... Thick, gloppy and woefully underseasoned. Forget it. The branded stuff is no better.

I'd much rather spend the time prepping veggies and making my own. What you seem to be conveniently forgetting is that the act of preparing and cooking food can be a pleasure in itself.


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## Lookrider (9 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> ALL food is outrageously cheap now. I buy very little processed food but the other day I bought some ready made flaky pastry, It was 75p. I'm not kidding. 75p. I have made 2 meals from it. I know how to make the stuff, heaven knows I have worked in enough factories manufacturing it to know *precisely* how it works. The butter to put in it costs half of that. I'm going to mess about putting 72 folds in pastry for 75p? Jog on. The same applies to most people, to a greater or lesser degree. I spent an hour earlier chopping vegetables for soup. Who else does this? A tin of the stuff is 35p.
> 
> 
> This old chestnut again. The food industry are corrupting us. Listen, I've spent 30+ years in food manufacturing, at all levels, and trust me, nobody is that bloody smart. The best we can ever manage is occasionally selling stuff that people want to buy, even that it a bit of a stretch. We cut out E numbers when people wanted us to, we went low fat, likewise, salt reduction, if today's buzzword is GF then give us a year or two and we *might* get there. But manipulate the market? I should be so lucky.




Maybe my use of the term corrupting has been misplaced 
Its not meant as financially corrupting us but that the food ingredients used in the 50/60s ie sugar salt syrups etc has indeed corrupted us in some form ...the author of that book proves that 

I've no idea about puff flake pastry so I guess that's cheaper and easier to just buy .so I will go along with you there 

I cannot agree that tinned soup is any where near as good as home made 
I also would likely get sick of chopping vegetables for a FULL hour as its usually a couple minutes max to chop a few veggies up fir family pot of soup ...and I'm slow at chopping 

A FULL hour is an awful lot of veggies


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## mistyoptic (9 Jun 2021)

Lookrider said:


> A FULL hour is an awful lot of veggies


That’s about how long I take but to make about six litres which will then be frozen in 2 portion doses. Then it becomes worth the time spent.

oh, and no comparison with the pap that comes in tins IMHO


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## KnittyNorah (9 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> Aaaaah, egg fried rice is one of my guilty pleasures... Eggs, rice, scallions, salt and pepper - food of the gods, I tell you.
> 
> But the secret is to use lard or dripping, NOT oil.
> 
> Mind you, I do tend to team it up with lots of steamed veg on the side, usually with chilli, sesame and soy. And (home made) pickled ginger.



No frying needed - just hot, freshly-cooked rice, stirred together with a spoonful of fried/caramelised onions and some chopped cooked veggies - whatever is left over, or some frozen ones from a packet briefly steamed - stir the beaten egg/s into that steaming mass, plop the lid on for a few minutes to keep in the heat, season then serve. Duck eggs add definite extra degree of 'richness' to the dish. Chopped chili peppers, fresh herbs, finely-sliced mushrooms or anything else you particularly fancy can be added instead of/as well as the veggies. No lard, no dripping (I'm vegetarian, or at least try to be ...), no butter, no oil necessary. A squeeze of lemon juice and some black pepper - mmmmmm!


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## KnittyNorah (9 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Interesting ... if Lard or Dripping was an ingredient in a ready-meal....



Palm oil very often _is _in ready meals - not something one sees in home-made food ...


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## Reynard (10 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> No frying needed - just hot, freshly-cooked rice, stirred together with a spoonful of fried/caramelised ones and some chopped cooked veggies - whatever is left over, or some frozen ones from a packet briefly steamed - stir the beaten egg/s into that steaming mass, plop the lid on for a few minutes to keep in the heat, season then serve. Duck eggs add definite extra degree of 'richness' to the dish. Chopped chili peppers, fresh herbs, finely-sliced mushrooms or anything else you particularly fancy can be added instead of/as well as the veggies. No lard, no dripping (I'm vegetarian, or at least try to be ...), no butter, no oil necessary. A squeeze of lemon juice and some black pepper - mmmmmm!



I've done it that way too, but prefer the authentic Chinese way. There's just something about the flavour and texture that presses all the right buttons.

Have to confess that I do like using lard and dripping when cooking.  But, as ever, it's achieving the balance between naughty foods and not so naughty ones. I don't actually eat that much fried / deep-dried food.


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## winjim (10 Jun 2021)

I promise you, the solution to the obesity epidemic is not 'convince people to spend an hour chopping vegetables in order to replicate a 35p tin of soup'.


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## Blue Hills (10 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> We cut out E numbers when people wanted us to, we went low fat, likewise, salt reduction, if today's buzzword is GF then give us a year or two and we *might* get there. But manipulate the market? I should be so lucky.


you are still talking about processed and ultra processed food though.
Which isn't good for folk - it needs to be eaten as a guilty treat, not as a daily diet.
The "low fat" thing did of course allow the ultra processed food industry to sell a lot of "low fat" stuff at premium prices that was loaded with other stuff - sugar and sweeteners etc.

Am reading this at the moment

View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spoon-Fed-almost-everything-about-wrong/dp/1787332292/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=spoon+fed&qid=1623302249&sr=8-1

Not that far in but he has already pointed the finger several times at the food industry for global dietary ills and health issues.
He points to their incredible economic power and their ability, nay keenness, to influence popular perceptions.
And highlights their sponsorship of research - much of which ends up serving their business needs.
May quote from it later.


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## mudsticks (10 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Interesting ... if Lard or Dripping was an ingredient in a ready-meal....



Lard and dripping are arguably far healthier, and certainly more natural than most of the fats used in food processing though.

Dripping on toast from the Sunday roast never did me any harm..

But they wouldn't 'look' good congealed in the top of the plastic dish before reheating, I guess.

Selling Industrial food is about front end perceptions, consistency, and long shelf life, on the whole isn't it.?

Not about nutrition, or even eating pleasure necessarily.

Not having a go, it's just the facts of where we are in terms of our relationship with food.

And how the 'food industry' drives and influences that for maximisation* of its profits.

Human health, is a long way down the list of priorities, but that's not 'their job' .
That's the business of governments, society, and if they can choose, the individual.

This is why you can gain a not unreasonable wage being part of the industrial food complex without breaking too much of a sweat.

Whilst those of us producing healthy nutritious but short shelf life food, have to come up with some fairly ingenious methods of just about making a living from what we produce.

The multiples have a stranglehold on pricing.

And even those of us doing direct selling ,and making some kind of an income that way are somewhat dictated to by that price point.

Anyway, we are where we are.

And there's the agretti to finish planting now..


* I totally understand maximising profit is a legal obligation to their shareholders.


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## KnittyNorah (10 Jun 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Lard and dripping are arguably far healthier, and certainly more natural than most of the fats used in food processing though.


Although I agree with the general idea that animal fats are not all sin, and plant fats are not all virtue - far from it! - I will somewhat play devil's advocate here. What quality is it that makes lard and dripping more 'natural'? And more natural than 'what'?


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## mudsticks (10 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Although I agree with the general idea that animal fats are not all sin, and plant fats are not all virtue - far from it! - I will somewhat play devil's advocate here. What quality is it that makes lard and dripping more 'natural'? And more natural than 'what'?



Unrefined animal fats are just part of nature 

Of course we'd prefer those animal to have had a nice life, pasture fed etc etc.

Highly processed vegetable fats that have undergone all sorts of processes to make them more user friendly..

See 'trans fats' Not something out guts,have evolved with ..

Of course cold pressed seed, and nut and olive oils etc .

Bring em on


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## Fab Foodie (10 Jun 2021)

KnittyNorah said:


> Palm oil very often _is _in ready meals - not something one sees in home-made food ...


Not unless you live in Malaysia....
Many products need a source of hard fats, in the veg world there's only Palm, Coconut and Cocoa now that Hydrogenation is frowned-upon.
Animal fats are great, suet, butter, lard, dripping but there are issues with 'acceptability' in some parts of the population. Animal fats are also more expensive and with less stable supply chains for industrial use.
Almost all of my customers have removed Palm Oil from their products, the last few still have some tech issues to resolve.


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## Fab Foodie (10 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> You'd be bloody crucified...
> 
> I got taught this by a Chinese lady I know. It really does make the difference in the taste.


As they tend to be already partially degraded, they also fry much better* than veg oils (which straight from the bottle are mostly crap)...don't get me started on frying with Olive oil....

*More polar in nature which increases their heat-transfer at the surface of the foodstuff....


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## fossyant (10 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> ...don't get me started on frying with Olive oil....


Is that because it doesn't do so well at high temperatures ? We use olive oil most of the time, and occasionally coconut oil for stir fry/oriental meals.


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## Fab Foodie (10 Jun 2021)

fossyant said:


> Is that because it doesn't do so well at high temperatures ? We use olive oil most of the time, and occasionally coconut oil for stir fry/oriental meals.


Mostly.... 
If you want to brown stuff or quick-fry it's very poor. Also, it smokes and produces off-flavours at high temperatures. In which case use Rapeseed as it's cheaper and works much better. 
If you have to use Olive oil for browning (as it's all you have), a knob of butter added to it works wonders.... I sometimes low-slow sauté leeks this way as all butter is a bit much! Browning mince for example is OK as the beef fat helps, but again I don't see the point of using Olive oil when Rapeseed is cheaper (OK, for a more 'authentic' Italian' experience maybe...).
I would only use Olive oil if you are frying at very low temps i.e. gently sautéing garlic for pasta aoli where the flavour from the olive oil is also preserved.


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## battered (10 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> 35p soup... Thick, gloppy and woefully underseasoned. Forget it. The branded stuff is no better.
> 
> I'd much rather spend the time prepping veggies and making my own. What you seem to be conveniently forgetting is that the act of preparing and cooking food can be a pleasure in itself.


I'm not forgetting it for an instant. That's why I stood at the cooker for an hour doing it. However I can understand plenty of people not wanting to bother.


Lookrider said:


> I cannot agree that tinned soup is any where near as good as home made
> I also would likely get sick of chopping vegetables for a FULL hour as its usually a couple minutes max to chop a few veggies up fir family pot of soup ...and I'm slow at chopping
> 
> A FULL hour is an awful lot of veggies


I never said tinned was as good as home made. An hour is the time it took me to turn half a swede, most of a bag of carrots, a head of celery, 2 onions, into 1cm dice and get it in a pan. I think my knife skills are reasonable, but it took an hour. It is a big pan of soup. Most people don't want to do this.


winjim said:


> I promise you, the solution to the obesity epidemic is not 'convince people to spend an hour chopping vegetables in order to replicate a 35p tin of soup'.


I didn't say it was, so the quote marks are inappropriate. 


Blue Hills said:


> you are still talking about processed and ultra processed food though.
> Which isn't good for folk - it needs to be eaten as a guilty treat, not as a daily diet.
> The "low fat" thing did of course allow the ultra processed food industry to sell a lot of "low fat" stuff at premium prices that was loaded with other stuff - sugar and sweeteners etc.
> 
> ...



Of course I am talking about manufactured foods. Natural foods, by their very nature, do not come in low fat/high fat variants. You can't generate a high fat carrot, or a high sugar carrot.
The food manufacturing industry manufactures what people want to eat. Just like bike manufacturers make what people want to ride. Of course they will try to present their products in as attractive a light as possible. They will also sponsor research that supports their business aims. Well, obviously. Bike manufacturers don't sponsor research into increasing car use, do they?


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## winjim (10 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> I didn't say it was, so the quote marks are inappropriate.


I promise you, the solution to the obesity epidemic is not convincing people to spend an hour chopping vegetables in order to replicate a 35p tin of soup.


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## mudsticks (10 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> I'm not forgetting it for an instant. That's why I stood at the cooker for an hour doing it. However I can understand plenty of people not wanting to bother.
> 
> I never said tinned was as good as home made. An hour is the time it took me to turn half a swede, most of a bag of carrots, a head of celery, 2 onions, into 1cm dice and get it in a pan. I think my knife skills are reasonable, but it took an hour. It is a big pan of soup. Most people don't want to do this.
> I didn't say it was, so the quote marks are inappropriate.
> ...



Just to be picky.here but they do breed higher sugar carrots..

And all manner of other vegetable variants.

But overall yes, still a lot more 'natural' than many of the 'food type products' that are passed off as suitable components of a decent diet .

And


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## KnittyNorah (10 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> Of course I am talking about manufactured foods. Natural foods, by their very nature, do not come in low fat/high fat variants. You can't generate a high fat carrot, or a high sugar carrot.



Oh yes they do, and oh yes you can! 
A _natural _vegetable, for instance from millennia ago, would be scarcely recognisable as such either by taste or appearance nowadays. 
The tomatoes, pumpkins/squashes, carrots, peas and many other veggies available today come in many varieties - significantly sweeter or less sweet varieties as well as early and late, large and small, blight resistant or susceptible, hardy and less hardy etc etc; dark green leaf veggies - cooked or salad - come in bitter (or 'strong') and less bitter varieties, as well as the bitterness being somewhat alterable by age at harvest and weather conditions ... 
Corn/maize comes in low fat/high fat varieties - you don't think the growers of maize/corn for the production of oil grow the same variety as that grown for the sweetest corn on the cob, do you? Sunflowers too - the ones I used to grow in my garden for multiple cutting heads are not the same variety grown for the production of the pressed oil ... Sugar beet is basically the same plant as field or fodder beet but is a variety with a much higher sugar content ... Vegetable crops, whether grown for home consumption, farm gate sale, delicatessen display, industrial processing or entry into the Worlds Biggest Parsnip competition, vary enormously in their 'make up', from starch, fibre, and protein content through to sugar and fat/oils. Some of this is affected by growing conditions, but a great deal of it is varietal.


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## Reynard (10 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> As they tend to be already partially degraded, they also fry much better* than veg oils (which straight from the bottle are mostly crap)...don't get me started on frying with Olive oil....
> 
> *More polar in nature which increases their heat-transfer at the surface of the foodstuff....



And that's exactly why I use lard or dripping to fry / deep fry with or to make roasties.  I might not have the exact scientific know-how, but that's what my years of experience in the kitchen tell me.

Otherwise, I use rape seed oil. Fewer food miles on that, too, as the one I buy is UK-produced.

Olive oil only gets used for salad dressings and for making hummus. Or maybe as a bit of flavouring, right at the end.

Previous week, I bought a 2.5kg slab of pork belly on yellow sticker for £3. Turned the leaner three fifths of it into a lovely porchetta. The rest went to make rilettes de porc  And I filled up my dripping jar as well.

P.S. I do love dripping (szmalec) on toast


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## matticus (10 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> This gets interesting when we move towards GM crops. Is there anything _inherently_ bad about GM?


<pulls up chair>


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## Fab Foodie (11 Jun 2021)

Reynard said:


> And that's exactly why I use lard or dripping to fry / deep fry with or to make roasties.  I might not have the exact scientific know-how, but that's what my years of experience in the kitchen tell me.
> 
> Otherwise, I use rape seed oil. Fewer food miles on that, too, as the one I buy is UK-produced.
> 
> ...


Spot-on! Animal fats are more saturated and in general proportionally longer chained than veg oils and so are also more heat stable....great for roasting - high temp/long time.
I also collect and reuse fats/oils/dripping.


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## lazybloke (11 Jun 2021)

battered said:


> <snip>
> An hour is the time it took me to turn half a swede, most of a bag of carrots, a head of celery, 2 onions, into 1cm dice and get it in a pan. I think my knife skills are reasonable, but *it took an hour*. It is a big pan of soup. *Most people don't want to do this.*
> <snip>


 And there lies the problem (or one of them). People not making time to cook.

A person that doesn't make time to cook is prioritising convenience over nutrition. Fine occasionally, but not as a lifestyle.
And if there's no time to cook, then maybe no time for exercise either?

The simple solution is that people need to find a healthier balance of priorities. I could certainly benefit from a small adjustment. Too many need to make much larger adjustments.

The difficulty is in motivating enough people to make this decision.


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## KnittyNorah (11 Jun 2021)

lazybloke said:


> A person that doesn't make time to cook is prioritising convenience over nutrition.



Not necessarily. It depends what one means by 'cooking' and in addition, there are situations in which a person _is unable to _cook for perfectly legitimate reasons. It is also perfectly possible to have what is normally referred to as a 'healthy diet' - complete with hot meals - with only _very minimal_ preparation and cooking.

ETA they may also be prioritising how they use their time; as long as a healthy diet is eaten/provided, whether 'cooked' or not, spending worthwhile time with - for example - one's children, or helping a sick friend or neighbour, can scarcely be called poor prioritisation.


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## winjim (11 Jun 2021)

You can't make time. Time proceeds at the inexorable rate of one second per second*. If I could make time just think of all the things I could do.


*Yeah I know but I'm standing on a ball with fairly constant mass, travelling pretty slowly in the grand scheme of things. Certainly at the same speed as my dinner.


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## Fab Foodie (11 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> As a hobby?
> 
> You must be fun at barbecues. "Do you _want_ those blobs of congealed fat?" (gets out horrible greasy carrier bag) "I collect them (wink)". (Host backs away looking worried)


It keeps me off the streets....


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## Reynard (11 Jun 2021)

Fab Foodie said:


> Spot-on! Animal fats are more saturated and in general proportionally longer chained than veg oils and so are also more heat stable....great for roasting - high temp/long time.
> I also collect and reuse fats/oils/dripping.



Waste not, want not... 

I buy the blocks of beef dripping - the stuff is fabby for chips and roasties.


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## matticus (11 Jun 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> As a hobby?
> 
> You must be fun at barbecues. "Do you _want_ those blobs of congealed fat?" (gets out horrible greasy carrier bag) "I collect them (wink)". (Host backs away looking worried)


That's if he's not too busy emptying roadkill out of his Carradice.


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## Dogtrousers (28 Jun 2021)

Here's a new approach to weight loss. It's a kind of blend of the high-tech and the mediaeval.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/28/new-weight-loss-tool-dentalslim-diet-control


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