# So how come pro cyclists have this problem?



## PeteT (7 Oct 2011)

Just been reading some observations from a journalist who has spent some time with top pro cyclists at the TdF etc.

He observed that the vast majority of them struggled to climb even a small flight of stairs without getting very short of breath. Yet these are the same guys who go zipping up the Alps etc! Doesn't make sense really as I would have thought they'd be super-fit and climbing stairs would be a doddle.

Any ideas about this?


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## raindog (7 Oct 2011)

Can you post a link?


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## yello (7 Oct 2011)

Just a guess for starters: there are different kinds of fitness. I might be able to cycle x hundred km but I can't run 50 metres. My muscles are all wrong for a start.


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## Hacienda71 (7 Oct 2011)

I am not a racer but I do like riding up hills in the Pennines, but walking up a steep short hill can leave me breathless. I think it is to do with warming up, you heart rate at the start of exercise tends to go up and then drop back down when you are into you training zone.


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## Fab Foodie (7 Oct 2011)

Hacienda71 said:


> I am not a racer but I do like riding up hills in the Pennines, but walking up a steep short hill can leave me breathless. I think it is to do with warming up, you heart rate at the start of exercise tends to go up and then drop back down when you are into you training zone.



Correct!
As I'm on beta-blockers and moderately fit, I have a very low heart-rate and climbing stairs is exactly as the OP described, it takes a slight while for the CV system to come-up to speed from a very low starting point. The heart of a pro cyclist ambling along is barely working and suddenly going-up the stairs requires some effort and the system just doesn't ramp-up fast enough. Normal peoples hearts will be ticking-over much faster and will spin-up a bit quicker rather like a revving engine. Furthermore the average Joe won't have the muscle-mass to supply either.
I always have a problem after a flight, I'm relaxed, been sitting a while, leave the plane and then have to haul my bag up a flight of stairs from the air-bridge ... damn near kills me and certainly leaves me breathless. I need to warm-up slow on the bike, but once up to speed 20mph is hard but doable.


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## 2PedalsTez (8 Oct 2011)

That's interesting stuff FF..
When I go for a ride, it takes me a while before I settle into riding 'mode' (the build up making me feel out of breath if I go off too fast). 
When I recently rode the Garmin Rideout, everyone went off very quick and the graph for my HRM looked like a firework display for the first couple of miles until it settled down. 
Makes me feel a bit better!


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## PeteT (8 Oct 2011)

raindog said:


> Can you post a link?


Unfortunately not - it was on good old ink and paper (by a journalist called Daniel Coyle, an American).
I did wonder whether the rider(s) concerned were hampered by carrying rucksacks full of EPO up to their rooms


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## martint235 (8 Oct 2011)

Reading this makes me feel so much better!! If I walk up to my second floor office at work, I'm a sweaty out of breath mess!!! I was beginning to think it was just me.


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## Davidc (8 Oct 2011)

I have the same issues as FF and for the same reasons. I'm just a bit older and slower! I'd only add that I find that if I climb the stairs at home, or at a regular ride end-point just after riding I can go up them without noticing them. With either, if I go up them after resting for a time then I'm slower and more breathless than other people who're far less fit than me.

I don't think that performance from cold, with no warm-up, is any indicator of fitness.


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## GrasB (9 Oct 2011)

This is my take on it all - your legs aren't warmed up & there's not a huge amount of readily available O2 in your blood contained in your leg muscles. You suddenly call for power in your well developed leg muscles & this drives the muscles into mildly-anaerobic power production. Your body's reaction is to ramp up the heart rate to get O2 to your legs, as your heart is also well developed the amount of O2 required to oxygenate the blood is high. So now your lungs have to cope with this sudden spike in O2 supply, this means breathing heavily. Net result, sudden increases in power production in your legs causes heavy breathing.


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## fossyant (9 Oct 2011)

Balls. Most cyclists will run up a flight of steps, or do a two steps at a time. Yeh system is running quicker, but soon drops.

I see too many of my colleagues wheezing walking up a set of stairs. If it's HR linked, then as soon as I see the bike the HR jumps. If you are fit, the heart instantly responds, then will ease off much quicker. Test of fitness is how fast the heart recovers after an intense effort - i.e. drops below a set rate (e.g. 100).

If we do see increased HR rates, it's the body's ability - look at the recovery, you will soon see a total nose dive in HR rate after the cyclist stops moving. 

Any active person, the heart will instantly react, pump in more blood, etc. but also recover very fast. 

The research is flawed.


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## lukesdad (9 Oct 2011)

Following on from what GB has just highlighted, Ive been long of the opinion that cyclists overlook their breathing. Much emphasis is placed on the heart and muscle development, and building them to perform,but how many work on their breathing. When I used to swim competitively the coaches drummed into us the importance of the lungs and how to make them work to their max. Im not saying the pro s do not train in the same way, probably far more advanced now, but for sure your average club rider does not IME.

Can t say Ive seen many threads on breathing in the fitness section on CC either.


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## Zoiders (9 Oct 2011)

I like to run up a flight of stairs carrying my bike and the evenings shopping if that helps at all.


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## lukesdad (9 Oct 2011)

fossyant said:


> Balls. Most cyclists will run up a flight of steps, or do a two steps at a time. Yeh system is running quicker, but soon drops.
> 
> I see too many of my colleagues wheezing walking up a set of stairs. If it's HR linked, then as soon as I see the bike the HR jumps. If you are fit, the heart instantly responds, then will ease off much quicker. Test of fitness is how fast the heart recovers after an intense effort - i.e. drops below a set rate (e.g. 100).
> 
> ...



Its about supply and demand. The heart is a pump. It doesnt matter how good the pump is if the fuel required isnt there in the first place to meet its obligation to the muscles. If the lungs are of a low cubic capacity or inefficient they will struggle to supply the oxygen required.

One of Chris Hoys many attributes is a huge lung capacity.


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## gb155 (9 Oct 2011)

I used to take the lift

then I struggled up them SLOWLY

then I ran them

then I sprinted them 2 at a time

now I do 2 at a time, with my bike

and its BECAUSE I'm a cyclist that I NOW can.


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## Zoiders (9 Oct 2011)

PeteT said:


> Just been reading some observations from a journalist who has spent some time with top pro cyclists at the TdF etc.
> 
> He observed that the vast majority of them struggled to climb even a small flight of stairs without getting very short of breath. Yet these are the same guys who go zipping up the Alps etc! Doesn't make sense really as I would have thought they'd be super-fit and climbing stairs would be a doddle.
> 
> Any ideas about this?


I think it's piffle that's being misread.

No one mid tour is going to be full of the joys of spring and bounding around like a loon off the bike, if you or I were up against it like that day in day out that you might find the stairs a struggle after as well.

Of course they could bound up the stairs if they wanted to most of the time, just not on command for some journalist mid race.


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## fossyant (9 Oct 2011)

I missed a few posts about breathing. Control breathing out, breathing in takes care of it's self. Control breathing ! Really hard, but key to go fast.....


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## lukesdad (10 Oct 2011)

fossyant said:


> I missed a few posts about breathing. Control breathing out, breathing in takes care of it's self. Control breathing ! Really hard, but key to go fast.....



It is hard and its not a key. Its part of the picture.


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## rustychisel (10 Oct 2011)

Many pro cyclists wouldn't walk up a flight of stairs if you pointed a gun at them (or a loaded doping control inspector, for that matter). The reason, like so many, is partially based on fact and more on lore.

Walking, running, jogging, and steps or stairs employ differing muscle groups in the legs, and it used to be said by soigneurs that it was bad for racing cyclists to exert other muscles than their 'cycling' muscles. The masseurs used to claim they could 'feel' it when a cyclist had overtaxed his calf muscles, in particular, and tightened up the legs. Being traditionalists and just a little impressed by gobbledygook many cyclists still use only the elevator. 

It was also said by soigneurs that shaving before a big day of racing 'taxed the strength', and for that reason you'll often see pros turn up to the start line with a day or two's stubble. It has nothing to do with whether they packed the razor, that's for sure. Funny thing is, of course, other riders notice the signs and often mark the man...


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## Arsen Gere (11 Oct 2011)

I'm with GrasB on this. I suspect that the oxygen kinetics in a trained athelete, along with the aerobic bias in his muscles probably lead to a short response time between the demand from the legs and the response from the lungs. 
So an untrained person takes longer before their body realises it needs more 02 and hopes it can just wing it.
I can't find any evidence to support this though.


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## Monsieur Remings (17 Oct 2011)

yello said:


> Just a guess for starters: there are different kinds of fitness. I might be able to cycle x hundred km but I can't run 50 metres. My muscles are all wrong for a start.



+1

Excellent thread. Now it all makes sense. Wish the OP could find a link somewhere..? Or a reference or title?


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## Herzog (18 Oct 2011)

rustychisel said:


> Many pro cyclists wouldn't walk up a flight of stairs if you pointed a gun at them (or a loaded doping control inspector, for that matter). The reason, like so many, is partially based on fact and more on lore.
> 
> Walking, running, jogging, and steps or stairs employ differing muscle groups in the legs, and it used to be said by soigneurs that it was bad for racing cyclists to exert other muscles than their 'cycling' muscles. The masseurs used to claim they could 'feel' it when a cyclist had overtaxed his calf muscles, in particular, and tightened up the legs. Being traditionalists and just a little impressed by gobbledygook many cyclists still use only the elevator.



This^ 

Cyclists never walk when they can be transported, never stand when they could sit, and, most importantly, never use the stairs.


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## PeteT (18 Oct 2011)

Monsieur Remings said:


> +1
> 
> Excellent thread. Now it all makes sense. Wish the OP could find a link somewhere..? Or a reference or title?




Unfortunately I can't - see earlier post.


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## Bicycle (18 Oct 2011)

I'm jumping onto this late, so I've missed all the science.

However, on my 21-mile commute in days gone by I'd be breathing like a busted boiler on the first, sharp hill up to the main road.

There were hills along the way (into and out of the Severn Valley) but nothing made me puff like that first climb.

I am not a racer and have never been close to being one, but I am pretty fit.


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## VamP (19 Oct 2011)

Old TDF maxim is, why walk when you can stand still, why stand when you can sit, why sit when you can lie down.

It's all about preserving whatever energy you have for what is yet to come.

I'm with Zoiders on this one.


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## Globalti (23 Oct 2011)

It's because cyclists develop such strong cycling-specific muscles and the remainder waste away through lack of use. I can ride 100 miles and although I used to do a lot of mountaineering, my fitness is now 100% cycling specific so if I climb a mountain I suffer, especially on the downhills. My legs will be screaming for 3 days afterwards.


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## albion (23 Oct 2011)

Not many 1KM sprint bikers here are there?If your average cyclist was a club runner he would do the 5KM or 10KM


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## Crankarm (24 Oct 2011)

This is what happens when you spend your life taking EPO, testosterone or making blood transfusions  .


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## Fiona N (25 Oct 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Following on from what GB has just highlighted, Ive been long of the opinion that cyclists overlook their breathing. Much emphasis is placed on the heart and muscle development, and building them to perform,but how many work on their breathing. When I used to swim competitively the coaches drummed into us the importance of the lungs and how to make them work to their max. Im not saying the pro s do not train in the same way, probably far more advanced now, but for sure your average club rider does not IME.
> 
> Can t say Ive seen many threads on breathing in the fitness section on CC either.



This brings to mind an interesting (scientific) paper I read about controlling heart rate with breathing and 'tricks' to keep a low HR. ONe that I tried in the 'controlled environment' of the turbo in the garage was 'omm-ing' - humming a mantra while on the turbo. This is quite amazing at it's ability to drop your heart rate - apparently it works by changing the breathing pattern which in turns relaxes muscles which aren't actively engaged thus reducing oxygen demand thus HR drops. I would warm up at about 150w for 15 mins which got my HR to about 70%HRM, then start the omm-ing and when I got the frequency right, my HR would gradually drop about 10bpm for the exact same wattage. Using it in the recovery between intervals was even better in terms of the speed you dropped the HR down.

Tricky to do while in a race of course, but time trailling....of course, you might get some funny looks or some followers, never know


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## tigger (25 Oct 2011)

lukesdad said:


> Following on from what GB has just highlighted, Ive been long of the opinion that cyclists overlook their breathing. Much emphasis is placed on the heart and muscle development, and building them to perform,but how many work on their breathing. When I used to swim competitively the coaches drummed into us the importance of the lungs and how to make them work to their max. Im not saying the pro s do not train in the same way, probably far more advanced now, but for sure your average club rider does not IME.
> 
> Can t say Ive seen many threads on breathing in the fitness section on CC either.




Couldn't agree more


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## tigger (25 Oct 2011)

Fiona N said:


> This brings to mind an interesting (scientific) paper I read about controlling heart rate with breathing and 'tricks' to keep a low HR. ONe that I tried in the 'controlled environment' of the turbo in the garage was 'omm-ing' - humming a mantra while on the turbo. This is quite amazing at it's ability to drop your heart rate - apparently it works by changing the breathing pattern which in turns relaxes muscles which aren't actively engaged thus reducing oxygen demand thus HR drops. I would warm up at about 150w for 15 mins which got my HR to about 70%HRM, then start the omm-ing and when I got the frequency right, my HR would gradually drop about 10bpm for the exact same wattage. Using it in the recovery between intervals was even better in terms of the speed you dropped the HR down.
> 
> Tricky to do while in a race of course, but time trailling....of course, you might get some funny looks or some followers, never know




I practice controlling my breathing using a HR monitor on a turbo. For me, the way you breathe in and out has a huge effect on HR. Also how relaxed you are generally and even what you are thinking (stressful / angry thoughts will give you a much higher HR than relaxed / peaceful ones). My HR is always higher on the road than on the trainer for seemingly less effort. This is because you have to be more alert on the road. Typical average HR for me on a 1 - 1.5 hr good hard power / TT type session on the hilly roads around me is 165-170 BPM. If I tried to achieve the same average on a turbo for 1 - 1.5 hrs I'd be dead!


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