# Diversity in Cycling



## Heltor Chasca (9 Jul 2019)

For the past couple of years I have been making an attempt to get up to speed with inclusivity in cycling. I have been most interested in female equality perhaps because I want the best for my daughters and I have been interested in black and minority ethnic groups (BAME). This has links to my 20+ years living in Africa and witnessing first hand inequality due to ingrained white privilege. And no I didn’t live in South Africa.

I listened to a really progressive podcast by Look Mum No Hands today and wanted to share it with you. https://www.lookmumnohands.com/events/diversity-in-cycling It really was a breath of fresh air and I learned a lot. Download it wherever you normally get your podcasts from.

The previous episode has 3 young guests. Two young white men and a young Indian woman who is the youngest RTW female cyclist to date. The difference in maturity, and culturally cemented white privilege was all too obvious. I was embarrassed by and for the young men and in awe of the young woman. She was streets ahead on every level and had the grace of a very wise person. You need to listen to the podcast and make your own mind up.

I want to support diversity in cycling. What can I do as a 45 year old, white male do to support the progression of diversity?


----------



## Drago (9 Jul 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I want to support diversity in cycling. What can I do as a 45 year old, white male do to support the progression of diversity?



Easy. Ride your bike, respect the rights of others, and be seen to do both. It'll come.


----------



## pjd57 (9 Jul 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> For the past couple of years I have been making an attempt to get up to speed with inclusivity in cycling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Where I live in Glasgow, one thing I have noticed is the low numbers of working class men who cycle.
Other groups are under represented and a lot of good work is being done to encourage more people on to bikes, which is great to see.

But the task of getting your average Glaswegian bloke on a bike remains a huge one.


----------



## simon.r (9 Jul 2019)

Drago said:


> Easy. Ride your bike, respect the rights of others, and be seen to do both. It'll come.



When? I’ve been doing that for decades. It hasn’t happened yet.


----------



## gbb (9 Jul 2019)

simon.r said:


> When? I’ve been doing that for decades. It hasn’t happened yet.


Perhaps it has and you've not realised it. I've been a 'cycling enthusiast' for 20 years. When I got my first serious roadbike, there did t seem to be that many people out there..period, nowadays there are lots. Similarly it was very rare to see women out on roadbike, I see them regularly now. 10 years ago I dont think I'd ever seen a black guy on a roadbike, I see there are at least a couple hereabouts now. Just my experience mind.

Quite honestly though, surely cycling one of the most accessible pastimes to get Into. I'd consider myself working class in attitude, I dont have a big social circle and cycling is the perfect pastime if you want to keep fit, you enjoy bicycles and can quite happily ride alone....and none will judge you for what you're riding or even what you're wearing. It needn't cost a lot to get into and is within reach financially of most people already.
Perhaps you can lead a horse to water....


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Jul 2019)

How do we get more horses cycling once they've drunk some water?


----------



## gbb (9 Jul 2019)

And to expand on the above....
Lots of people have bicycles but not many I'd have thought are 'enthusiastic cyclists'
IIMHO, as said, it seems to me there is no financial or social barrier to those choosing to cycle and yet, cycling, as much as its appeal has grown in the time I've been an enthusiast, it just will not appeal to the majority of people, whatever their social, ethnic or financial standing. Surely, we are a minority ourselves, us 'enthusiastic cyclists'


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (9 Jul 2019)

This group was in _Cycling Weekly_ a while ago

https://www.brothersonbikes.cc/


----------



## annedonnelly (10 Jul 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I want to support diversity in cycling. What can I do as a 45 year old, white male do to support the progression of diversity?



Perhaps get involved with a group/charity that is promoting it? Some do beginners rides, training, etc.

I volunteer with a bike charity that recycles bikes, sells the refurbished ones cheaply and also does servicing & fettling. We keep a lot of people on the road by using second hand parts to offer a cheaper option to fix their bike. We see a huge variety of clients & bikes - the occasional full service on an expensive carbon road bike helps to fund the extra hours we might put in to get someone's Halfords Apollo back on the road.


----------



## swansonj (10 Jul 2019)

One of the factors discouraging greater diversity in cycling is the image it has of being the natural preserve of white males. And not just white males in general, like any activity that has a strand that is about physical prowess, cycling has a tendency to attract "laddish" behaviour, which by its assertive nature can then come to dominate. Those of us who fit that demographic, and those who don't but have broken through and become part of the in group, find it very difficult to recognise how subtle elements of our behaviour and our organisation are offputting to outsiders to our culture, i.e. many of the very people we need to attract to increase diversity. Indeed, we often - probably unconsciously- act to preserve our own comfortable occupation of the high ground.

So one of the things we can do if we are serious about improving diversity is have a hard think about which aspects of and which activities within the cycling world we lend our support to, and perhaps be willing to exercise small amounts of self sacrifice by questioning our involvement in activities that are (or that become) centres of laddishness or other exclusive behaviour rather than centres of inclusion.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (10 Jul 2019)

Years ago, when I was MTB racing (early 90s), there was a small number of black/Asian competitors
Eg; the lad in the 'Orange' jersey (memory tells me; Ifti Patel???)


View: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200747338958116&set=a.10200356336143290&type=3&theater




Then, as I drifted across (ha!) into Cyclo-Cross, it seemed that the Senior/Vet fields were entirely white (from memory)
Some kids were riding the junior events of various ethnicity, but not parents.


----------



## greenakina (10 Jul 2019)

At most traffic lights or when riding as a 'herd' in zone 1 I often tend to be the rare POC cyclist amongst the group.

I'm looking forward to this event to learn and discuss how cycling can be made more accessible and inclusive.


----------



## steveindenmark (10 Jul 2019)

pjd57 said:


> Where I live in Glasgow, one thing I have noticed is the low numbers of working class men who cycle.
> Other groups are under represented and a lot of good work is being done to encourage more people on to bikes, which is great to see.
> 
> But the task of getting your average Glaswegian bloke on a bike remains a huge one.


How do you know the people riding the bikes now are not working class men?

Im a working class man and have high end bikes and wear Rapha.


----------



## RoadRider400 (10 Jul 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I want to support diversity in cycling. What can I do as a 45 year old, white male do to support the progression of diversity?



Thats rather a sweeping statement. What is your specific objective?

Perhaps arrange meetings with certain groups that you feel are under represented out on the roads.

But I would suggest one of the first questions you should ask to each group is _"are you interested in cycling?" _Because if the answer is no, then you can promote/support it until the cows come home. If it doesnt appeal they are not going to get involved.

However I feel for some communities and particulary women in those communities the reason will be deep rooted into their accepted norms and with all the good will in the world, one person is not going to change that.


----------



## Randomnerd (10 Jul 2019)

There’s a fair bit going on in North Yorkshire, around me, for inclusion. People with additional needs led out on side by side trikes along railway cinder tracks; woman-specific bike rides, clubs, repair sessions; community interest companies set up specifically to tackle inclusion via bikes.


----------



## snorri (10 Jul 2019)

greenakina said:


> I often tend to be the rare POC cyclist amongst the group..


POC? Please explain.


----------



## Cycleops (10 Jul 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> How do we get more horses cycling once they've drunk some water?


I think you can close the thread now.


----------



## vickster (10 Jul 2019)

snorri said:


> POC? Please explain.


People/person of colour I think


----------



## Moodyman (10 Jul 2019)

If people have no interest in cycling, they will not cycle. No matter their colour, gender, etc.

If you want to encourage BAME and females, then the best thing to do is offer words of encouragement when you see someone pedalling.

I fit the usual stereotype - male, white collar, aged 40+. But, I ain't white. Thanks to the recent warm spell, I'm very brown. 

I face more questions from the South Asian community than anyone else.These range from bemusement ("why?") to wow ("I could never do that").

There is a wonderful group of Asian ladies near me who organise Breeze rides. They have featured in Cycling UK and have been supported by Isla Rowntree of Islabikes. Look them up: 'Hopon.bike'.

Another group train children: 'Onnabike.com'

Of course, there is 'BoB' posted upthread.

So, those that want to cycle, are riding their bikes.


----------



## pjd57 (10 Jul 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> How do you know the people riding the bikes now are not working class men?
> 
> Im a working class man and have high end bikes and wear Rapha.


Just my perception of who I meet on various rides I go on and the numbers of people you see out cycling in different areas in and around the city.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

It's much easier to be it if you see it.

Anyone who doesn't feel they fit naturally into the demographic of whatever activity will feel self conscious.
Maybe like they're not welcome, or as if they have to prove their worth to participate.

If those from the dominant culture.. In the case of cycling pale and male, don't recognise this, and actually make an effort to not be part of the problem, then they are signalling that they don't really give much of a sh*t about inclusiveness.

In the case of many women, its also a case of giving themselves permission to have time off to persue a leisure activity.

This isn't helped by them often being expected to fulfil more of the caring roles, on top of paid work, with the triple whammy of often being paid less, so having less money to spend on kit etc.

Guys are generally better at ring fencing, and feeling entitled to their leisure time, either alone, or with their bros.

Add on top of that the heightened risk (perceived or otherwise) of hassle by 'bad guys' against women, or poc.

It all adds up to an unhealthy mix of disincentives.

Inclusivity projects can help to a certain extent.

But if that's not backed up by a general change of attitude in wider society, then participation from non trad groups will be slow to increase .

Everyone should feel as entitled to take up relative low cost activities, such as cycling.

The reasons they don't join in, are complex, but a good starting place to find out why, is to ask those groups themselves.


----------



## steveindenmark (10 Jul 2019)

pjd57 said:


> Just my perception of who I meet on various rides I go on and the numbers of people you see out cycling in different areas in and around the city.


They do say cycling is the new golf.

I played golf for years and went to play in Portugal every Spring with a docker, a bin man and a solicitor.

Another perception blown away


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

steveindenmark said:


> They do say cycling is the new golf.
> 
> I played golf for years and went to play in Portugal every Spring with a docker, a bin man and a solicitor.
> 
> Another perception blown away



I've never played golf. 

Tbh I've never seen the attraction of chasing a ball big, or small, about the place. 

But I've always assumed golf must be amaazing. 

Cos, all the richest people seem to play it ...


----------



## Gravity Aided (10 Jul 2019)

annedonnelly said:


> Perhaps get involved with a group/charity that is promoting it? Some do beginners rides, training, etc.
> 
> I volunteer with a bike charity that recycles bikes, sells the refurbished ones cheaply and also does servicing & fettling. We keep a lot of people on the road by using second hand parts to offer a cheaper option to fix their bike. We see a huge variety of clients & bikes - the occasional full service on an expensive carbon road bike helps to fund the extra hours we might put in to get someone's Halfords Apollo back on the road.


I do the same, but we have a pretty diverse group of cyclists in our town. Not necessarily in the clubs and organized cycling, mind, but those people are of a mindset that seeks sameness, and an echo chamber of similar views. So I work in a bicycle co-op, and also buy parts there, helping to provide cash funds, and parts for my many bikes. There are plenty of people, kids and adults, who cycle in my town. Many need help keeping their bikes on the road. But I am proud to say that I am seeing an improvement in the level of the bikes ridden for work and transportation, as I see many of them around the multi-billion dollar company I work at. I think that f we are going to keep on spending what we spend to keep this economic system going, the very least we can do is help provide a bike for people who cannot afford a car to get to work. Now mind, I am speaking for the States, with little in the form of guaranteed health care or an effective minimum wage law or really any workers' rights when the day is done.


----------



## Gravity Aided (10 Jul 2019)

On another, contrasting note, I might also say that I see kids' bike in very dire condition, every time I go to the co-op. Can't people take time out to check over their kids' bicycle and make sure it is safe to ride? Part of this is the fault of Wal*Mart and the pi** poor bikes they sell. But a part of parental responsibility is making sure your kids are safe as well. Seems like a bare minimum to have a look at their bike now and again.


----------



## Heltor Chasca (10 Jul 2019)

RoadRider400 said:


> Thats rather a sweeping statement. What is your specific objective?...



It was a question not a statement, but in answer to your question: I guess my (very vague) objective is to be a more inclusive white, 45 year old. Rather than choose what *I think is the best approach, *without consultation, I would rather get feedback from POC, BAME and females on how *they would like me to be inclusive.
*
The last thing I want to do is patronise anybody or mistakenly fall into the tokenism trap. I can’t think of anything more humiliating. 

My experience in Africa showed me that learning an indigenous language and adherence to certain cultural differences when socialising and working with Africans broke down barriers almost instantaneously. At the time I was a young man and I earned more genuine respect than I have in any other situation I have experienced. And it was completely natural, organic and enriching.

Obviously I can’t apply quite the same approach here in the U.K.

I would think ideas and answers will only come to me from people in these ethnic minorities or people who work with these groups. Down here in Somerset it is very white until you go to Bristol, so I am going to struggle in that respect. I ran the first control for an Audax that started in Bristol and there was a good representation from minority groups which made me pleased. I emailed our chair with my observations and asked how we can repeat this inclusion. But due to the relaxed approach found in Audax, he was unsure how the event managed to draw people in from these groups on this occasion.

Do we have any POC, BAME, or female forumites on C.C. who can help me with their ideas?


----------



## Heltor Chasca (10 Jul 2019)

I should also add that my experience of playing a lot of sport in Africa taught me that Africans are amazing athletes and if you follow any of the teams from SA or Ruanda (and more) it won’t be long (I hope) till we start seeing very diverse pelotons internationally.


----------



## RoadRider400 (10 Jul 2019)

As a slight aside. Why do you feel the need to promote diversity in cycling? As in what barriers to entry have you seen that you feel need to be overcome?

I can appreciate it in group activities where people might feel discriminated against or scared to be the only person of a certain age/ethnicity/religion/gender etc, then yes absolutely it needs help to become inclusive. I myself have only just got into cycling. I went on Ebay and purchased my bike, I then ordered and fitted new tyres. I now go out and ride my bike in the countryside now and then and have entered a sportive. I fail to see how variation in the personal characterisics I have listed above would restrict anybody else in this country from doing the same.

Sometimes people/communities make their own barriers, or are just not interested.


----------



## jay clock (10 Jul 2019)

One of the most inspirational cyclists I know is hijab wearing granny from Leicester who I met in 2012 when we both cycled in the opening ceremony of the Olympics. https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/maryam-amatullah


----------



## Andy in Germany (10 Jul 2019)

I think that part of the problem in the UK is the old problem of a lack of infrastructure, so only the people who feel up to dealing with the conditions cycle.

We have a similar problem in Stuttgart, because it lags in terms of cycle infrastructure, this week I was down near, and occasionally over, the Swiss border, in a region with somewhat better cycling infrastructure and lots of people of all genders and nationalities were riding bikes.

When I'm in Japan, I see people of all ages and genders as well, less ethnicities simply because there aren't many people of different ethnicities in that region of Japan, but there are swarms of schoolkids and grannies riding as well.

I think you may as well ask "How do you make train travel more inclusive?" Answer, make it convenient, inexpensive, and safe for _everyone_, and it becomes normal for everyone.

I'd suggest @Heltor Chasca that the best way to make cycling inclusive is to try and get more safe infrastructure.

The other main problem here is hills, and I'm afraid no amount of political correctness will get rid of those...


----------



## Supersuperleeds (10 Jul 2019)

jay clock said:


> One of the most inspirational cyclists I know is hijab wearing granny from Leicester who I met in 2012 when we both cycled in the opening ceremony of the Olympics. https://www.cyclinguk.org/article/maryam-amatullah



I see her on her bike a fair bit, she was on the local news sometime last year trying to encourage more women to get out on bikes.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

RoadRider400 said:


> As a slight aside. Why do you feel the need to promote diversity in cycling? As in what barriers to entry have you seen that you feel need to be overcome?
> 
> I can appreciate it in group activities where people might feel discriminated against or scared to be the only person of a certain age/ethnicity/religion/gender etc, then yes absolutely it needs help to become inclusive. I myself have only just got into cycling. I went on Ebay and purchased my bike, I then ordered and fitted new tyres. I now go out and ride my bike in the countryside now and then and have entered a sportive. I fail to see how variation in the personal characterisics I have listed above would restrict anybody else in this country from doing the same.
> 
> Sometimes people/communities make their own barriers, or are just not interested.



I guess the op enjoys his cycling, as do we all otherwise we wouldn't be here.

And as befits a decent human being he would like other people to be able to get all the same benefits and enjoyments out of cycling too.

He has identified that there seem to be fewer women and BAME people out on bikes, compared with the proportions of those groups of the general public, and laudably he would like to try to address that.

In part because he has daughters of his own , but i'm sure its also because as mentioned before, he is a decent human being who would like to see everyone get the chance to enjoy, what he enjoys.

Personally i'm mainly a solitary cyclist locally here in deepest Devon, and solo tourer / bike packer further afield - ( if 'bike packing' is defined as touring and wild camping)

This solitariness is mainly by choice - i love the freedom, the ability to go wherever I like under my own steam, the sense of pace (I go hiking too) the ability to get on with it if feeling speedy, or meandering along if that suits better, unexpected encounters, all that stuff.

i'd love it if everyone from whatever back ground could join in, without feeling restricted in any way.



But that isn't reflected in the demographic i see doing such things.

Some women express fear of being out in the countryside, on the roads, or camping out in the wilds by themselves.

As an aside i'm also quite involved in a small scale farmers union trying to encourage more opportunity, and better diversity within the food growing sector.

There are definitely gender and ethnicity barriers there too - i know a lot of BAME people say they don't feel so welcome in the countryside.

If we just leave things to evolve slowly and 'naturally' - almost nothing changes - its just business as usual.

I didn't used to believe in positive discrimination, and so forth, i thought everyone should just get opportunity based on merit, but over the years i realise that there are many barriers , hidden and otherwise to people of all backgrounds having the same chances , so we do need to go out of our way, sometimes, to level the playing field somewhat.

Even recognising that the playing field isn't level for everyone is a good first step.


----------



## RoadRider400 (10 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> There are definitely gender and ethnicity barriers there too - i know a lot of BAME people say they don't feel so welcome in the countryside.



Hopefully just a very small number of narrow minded locals in their latter years of existance.
I would like to think that the majority of people are not like that. One of the reasons I like cycling out of town, aside from the lack of cars, is that all cyclists/joggers/dog walkers are cheery and will all say morning with a smile. I would hope that its the same greeting for anybody passing through on their bike.
But yes, I do take your point.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

RoadRider400 said:


> Hopefully just a very small number of narrow minded locals in their latter years of existance.
> I would like to think that the majority of people are not like that. One of the reasons I like cycling out of town, aside from the lack of cars, is that all cyclists/joggers/dog walkers are cheery and will all say morning with a smile. I would hope that its the same greeting for anybody passing through on their bike.
> But yes, I do take your point.



Would that it were so. 

Racism seems to run in families, and is often exacerbated by people never having met people of other ethnicities. 

Plus believing the twaddle that the populist press spout about 'immigrants' and suchlike.


----------



## Smokin Joe (10 Jul 2019)

I went through a period where a lot of people I taught to drive were of black or Asian origin. Almost without exception when they discovered I was a cyclist I got a look of incredulity and the question "Why? You have a car". The attitude is pretty much the same among my own lot, the Irish, who can't understand why an adult would ride a bike for pleasure unless they were too poor to drive or they were good enough to ride the Tour de France and earn a fortune. 

I had to smile once when I was about to go on a cycling trip to France and an aunt asked me why I didn't fly instead as it didn't cost that much and I could sit in comfort. Among many cultures and races the bicycle is still regarded as something that means you are living in poverty and they can't understand why anyone would do it by choice.


----------



## Cycleops (10 Jul 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I went through a period where a lot of people I taught to drive were of black or Asian origin. Almost without exception when they discovered I was a cyclist I got a look of incredulity and the question "Why? You have a car". The attitude is pretty much the same among my own lot, the Irish, who can't understand why an adult would ride a bike for pleasure unless they were too poor to drive or they were good enough to ride the Tour de France and earn a fortune.
> 
> I had to smile once when I was about to go on a cycling trip to France and an aunt asked me why I didn't fly instead as it didn't cost that much and I could sit in comfort. Among many cultures and races the bicycle is still regarded as something that means you are living in poverty and they can't understand why anyone would do it by choice.


That's very true. Down here there are a few what you might call cycling enthusiasts but if I'm out on my bike and meet some I know the first question they usually ask me is "where is your car?".


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2019)

To turn it on its head, is there any evidence that any ethnic groups or minorities feel it's a 'white male preserve' or feel excluded .
I still honestly think it's an eminently affordable pastime anyone who wants to, can take up. You can ride on your own if you want to, you dont need acceptance...or even anyones opinion, you just ride. Anyone has that choice already, you just go with it.

I guess what I saying is I dont feel it's a 'white male preserve'...I just dont buy it. It just happens a lot of 'white males' like cycling.

That said, no harm in trying to encourage anyone, whatever gender, race or colour they may be...into cycling.


----------



## Smokin Joe (10 Jul 2019)

I've never tried to get anyone into cycling in my life, be they black, male, female or LGBT. If they want to do it they'll do it and I'll give them advice and encouragement, otherwise I don't really care.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

gbb said:


> To turn it on its head, is there any evidence that any ethnic groups or minorities feel it's a 'white male preserve' or feel excluded .
> I still honestly think it's an eminently affordable pastime anyone who wants to, can take up. You can ride on your own if you want to, you dont need acceptance...or even anyones opinion, you just ride. Anyone has that choice already, you just go with it.
> 
> I guess what I saying is I dont feel it's a 'white male preserve'...I just dont buy it. It just happens a lot of 'white males' like cycling.
> ...



Umm, just guessing are you a white male by any chance?? .

Of course people of other ethnicities are all going to feel differently about all these topics.

Being the individuals they are, but there is evidence that many people from BAME communities, and women too, feel unwelcome, or uncomfortable, in situations that are seen as trad male and pale.

It's overly simplistic to say 'anyone can do it' 

That's maybe technically true.

But exclusion works more insidiously than that.

It requires a degree of sensitivity, and empathy as to how it feels to be an outsider. to be receptive to these issues.

Otherwise we're effectively saying

"I see no problem, ergo there isn't one, maybe just get over y'selves, and get on with it"


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2019)

Smokin Joe said:


> I went through a period where a lot of people I taught to drive were of black or Asian origin. Almost without exception when they discovered I was a cyclist I got a look of incredulity and the question "Why? You have a car". The attitude is pretty much the same among my own lot, the Irish, who can't understand why an adult would ride a bike for pleasure unless they were too poor to drive or they were good enough to ride the Tour de France and earn a fortune.
> 
> I had to smile once when I was about to go on a cycling trip to France and an aunt asked me why I didn't fly instead as it didn't cost that much and I could sit in comfort. Among many cultures and races the bicycle is still regarded as something that means you are living in poverty and they can't understand why anyone would do it by choice.


And that's the kicker, a lot of people think we're nuts tbh. Cycling, as I said and a few others too, is a very personal thing, you'll be drawn it by no one but yourself, it's just in you.
A minority trying to include more minorities is always going to be hard, lets face it, it's hard enough convincing normal 'white males'. 

Respect to anyone who gets on a bike. Their sex race or colour is irrelevant to me personally.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

http://theconversation.com/the-unbearable-whiteness-of-cycling-76256



gbb said:


> And that's the kicker, a lot of people think we're nuts tbh. Cycling, as I said and a few others too, is a very personal thing, you'll be drawn it by no one but yourself, it's just in you.
> A minority trying to include more minorities is always going to be hard, lets face it, it's hard enough convincing normal 'white males'.
> 
> Respect to anyone who gets on a bike. Their sex race or colour is irrelevant to me personally.



All these things_ may_ be irrelevant to you - but i'd maintain anyone who claims 'not to see' ethnicity or gender or what have you, is in a way exercising their white - and quite possibly male privelege.

Its another way of avoiding recognising that those other groups have been, and still are disadvantaged - and it tries to claim that we are all starting from the same position - that nobody has advantage because of their gender or race - and thats palpably untrue.


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2019)

Cant really see how someone is disadvantaged to the point where they feel they cant take up cycling.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

gbb said:


> Cant really see how someone is disadvantaged to the point where they feel they cant take up cycling.



In which case how come i've got a friend who runs a business solely aimed at encouraging women to take up, or to return to cycling?

If it was so simple they would just do it, no problem.

And these are women who have the wherewithawl, free time, and liberty to go on these confidence building sessions.

There will be many more who couldn't do that, for many personal reasons.

Maybe the key phrase above is "Cant really see" - thats perhaps a lack of imagination, or empathy on the part of the 'non see-er' - Have you really never felt ill at ease or lacking in confidence in certain situations, when you'd like to have a go at something thats 'technically available' , but felt inhibited, for some reason?


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> In which case how come i've got a friend who runs a business solely aimed at encouraging women to take up, or to return to cycling?
> 
> If it was so simple they would just do it, no problem.
> 
> ...


Oh yes. I find it deeply difficult communicating with people, especially those who are not prone to 'small talk', serious people. As the production team meeting attendee for my depatment, I found it...and still sometimes do, incredibly difficult. But you fight through.im 61 years old and still find some situations uncomfortable. 
I took up a new career at 40 and struggled like hell for the first 6 months...but determination got me through.
I deeply detest noisy gatherings or partjes, but sometimes, you just have to do it.

You fight for what you want, sometimes the biggest battle is with yourself..,that's perhaps what shapes my opinions of others...if you truly want it, it has to come from within. No-one can make those really difficult things easy.

Dont get me wrong, if anyone out there trying to make it more inclusive...great, genuinely, I'm all for it....but my opinion is, and always will be, if you want something...fight for it yourself, it then has greater meaning.


----------



## united4ever (10 Jul 2019)

Do you think some second generation Asian families may look down on cycling? I read in China people are abandoning bicycles for cars as a status symbol. Maybe some of those values are passed onto their kids even if they were born and grew up here?


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

gbb said:


> Oh yes. I find it deeply difficult communicating with people, especially those who are not prone to 'small talk', serious people. As the production team meeting attendee for my depatment, I found it...and still sometimes do, incredibly difficult. But you fight through.im 61 years old and still find some situations uncomfortable.
> I took up a new career at 40 and struggled like hell for the first 6 months...but determination got me through.
> I deeply detest noisy gatherings or partjes, but sometimes, you just have to do it.
> 
> ...



I understand where you are coming from in terms of working hard against the odds, and your own demons to get to where you want. 

I've done it myself many times.

Maybe where we divide is that I also recognise that I still have some advantage over others, - upbringing, opportunity, whiteness, amongst other stuff, most of which was just luck of the draw, nothing that I really achieved through effort.

Ive built my achievements, with effort, on top of that 'natural born advantage'

But I've also had enough, unfortunate bad sh*t happen too, to know that people can be held back through no fault of their own.. Just circumstances.

And I can see that some people need extra help or encouragement. 
Or even for those with privelege to recognise it, and act accordingly.


----------



## gbb (10 Jul 2019)

Mudsticks, I cant deny your sense of justice, a very commendable thing...

Personally, I put all my energy...and some not inconsiderable cash  into supporting members of my family who tend to be the only focus in our lives. I never had it easy but then you see members of your family who are even less fortunate and will never have the chances I had...and you do everything you can to help.
Most people I suspect do, the focus might be different, but most of us are decent people, the priorities are just different.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

gbb said:


> Mudsticks, I cant deny your sense of justice, a very commendable thing...
> 
> Personally, I put all my energy...and some not inconsiderable cash  into supporting members of my family who tend to be the only focus in our lives. I never had it easy but then you see members of your family who are even less fortunate and will never have the chances I had...and you do everything you can to help.
> Most people I suspect do, the focus might be different, but most of us are decent people, the priorities are just different.



Well that's nice of you to say so. 

I guess i was brought up to understand how lucky I was just to have modest comforts, and opportunities such as a decent state education.

That not everyone in the world gets even these. 

And that I could do what I wanted in life, if I made enough of an effort, that there weren't any real reasons that I shouldn't try stuff.

But that other people have disadvantages, sometimes hidden ones, or suffer prejudices, that make life very difficult. 

And that its right to try to address them. 

I dont have any dependants, kids are grown up and are OK so far, parents both gone. 

So I spose I can think a bit more about the bigger picture.


----------



## RoadRider400 (10 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> In which case how come i've got a friend who runs a business solely aimed at encouraging women to take up, or to return to cycling?



How does that work.?
Surely the aim of a business is to make money, how does your friends business generate its income? if its solely aimed at encouraging women to start or return to cycling.


----------



## mudsticks (10 Jul 2019)

RoadRider400 said:


> How does that work.?
> Surely the aim of a business is to make money, how does your friends business generate its income? if its solely aimed at encouraging women to start or return to cycling.



She runs riding sessions, to teach skills and build confidence, some off road. 

She charges money for these courses.


----------



## RoadRider400 (10 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> She runs riding sessions, to teach skills and build confidence, some off road.
> 
> She charges money for these courses.



Good idea that. Well done her.


----------



## theclaud (10 Jul 2019)

gbb said:


> Oh yes. I find it deeply difficult communicating with people, especially those who are not prone to 'small talk', serious people. As the production team meeting attendee for my depatment, I found it...and still sometimes do, incredibly difficult. But you fight through.im 61 years old and still find some situations uncomfortable.
> I took up a new career at 40 and struggled like hell for the first 6 months...but determination got me through.
> I deeply detest noisy gatherings or partjes, but sometimes, you just have to do it.
> 
> ...


When any of the many difficulties of life are more difficult because you have white skin, get back to us.


----------



## Seevio (11 Jul 2019)

And yet, the many difficulties of life are still there.


----------



## theclaud (11 Jul 2019)

Seevio said:


> And yet, the many difficulties of life are still there.


What's your point, caller?


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Seevio said:


> And yet, the many difficulties of life are still there.



No one's denying they are there. 

But there is still, a totally unjust inequality, around gender and race, that makes things unecessarily harder again, for those who don't benefit from male, and white privelege.

Sexism, and racism, still exist, that's all.


----------



## Levo-Lon (11 Jul 2019)

theclaud said:


> When any of the many difficulties of life are more difficult because you have white skin, get back to us.




How would you know? Your white. Drum banger


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

meta lon said:


> How would you know? Your white. Drum banger



Because she can read, knows history, and can listen to, and process the experiences of others who are not her, with empathy and understanding. 

Clearly not something within your field.


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

Have we came to the conclusion that the lack of diversity is the White man's fault yet?


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> Have we came to the conclusion that the lack of diversity is the White man's fault yet?



Some if us kinda have yes. 


But others seem resistant to the idea that 'the white man' not wishing to give up exercising his unequal power and privelege, is part of what is stopping everyone feeling comfortable doing whatever they choose, or having the same opportunities. .

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, racism, and sexism are still operating in our world. 

Those least willing to recognise that, or most unwilling to do anything sbout it, do seem to be white men, in the main. 

So perhaps, we might conclude that there is a correlation yes.


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> At the risk of sounding like a broken record, racism, and sexism are still operating in our world.



Yes they are in your post for all to see!


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> Yes they are in your post for all to see!



Aww, you feeling oppressed in you white maleness??

For those who have hitherto had privelege, moves towards equality start to feel like oppression.

Funnily (not funny) a female colleague was describing just now how she changed route in her woodland walk home yesterday evening, because a guy walking in the same woods was acting weirdly towards her.

She was the one who had to take evasive action, as a result, but fear of strange men, and their potential for aggression doesn't come out of nowhere does it??

#notallmen isn't of much use if you're the one feeling vulnerable.

It's an everyday story of the restrictions put on women, which a lot of the time you don't even hear about or consider to be anything to do with you.

Poc often feel the same, in similar situations.

The fact that you can't see, or won't acknowledge these problems, is very much part of the problem.


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Aww, you feeling oppressed in you white maleness??
> 
> For those who have hitherto had privelege, moves towards equality start to feel like oppression.
> 
> ...



TLDR


----------



## hoopdriver (11 Jul 2019)

Save it for The Guardian


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

hoopdriver said:


> Save it for The Guardian



You mean preaching to the converted??

Yup that's gonna shift things along nicely.



Eddy said:


> TLDR



Or too close to the truth to read even??


----------



## hoopdriver (11 Jul 2019)

Just a lot of blather, really


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> You mean preaching to the converted??
> 
> Yup that's gonna shift things along nicely.
> 
> ...



*Definition of bigot*


*: *a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially *: *one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

No hatred, or intolerance here. 

Just observation o, and understanding f uncomfortable reality. 

You claiming racism and sexism no longer exist??


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> No hatred, or intolerance here.
> 
> 
> You will be saying Pale male is not a derogatory term next.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Pale male - 

is a colloquial term for white male,

Sometimes tripled up with 'stale' ( to denote older, 

it rhymes, it's kinda childish yes, but it's fairly harmless.

No more harmful, or derogatory than young black female.

But who gets greater freedoms, and priveleges, lives with less fear in their daily lives, out of those two groupings?? 

Hmm


----------



## hoopdriver (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> No hatred, or intolerance here.
> 
> Just observation o, and understanding f uncomfortable reality.
> 
> You claiming racism and sexism no longer exist??


Not at all. You seem to be practicing it


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Pale male -
> 
> is a colloquial term for white male,
> 
> ...




You are so determined to claim victimhood on behalf of minorities so you can claim moral superiority and allow you to act the way you are acting!

Its all about you!


----------



## theclaud (11 Jul 2019)

meta lon said:


> How would you know? *Your white*. Drum banger


Yeah and I'm pretty sure I've done alright out of it. And where I haven't done alright, it definitely isn't because of it.


----------



## Milkfloat (11 Jul 2019)

As a privileged white male cyclist I would like to see more cyclists on the road no matter their gender, colour or creed. I don't think that there are generally overt barriers to cycling as a whole laid down by your average cyclist, although I am aware that attitudes in some clubs and a 'pink it and shrink it' design ethos may have really held back potential cyclists in the past. I don't think that blame for a lack of diversity in cycling can be laid totally on men, it is far more nuanced and complicated than that. What is for sure that as a cyclist human we all should try to stop being daffodils and just get along with each other so that overall the entire human race succeeds.​


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> You are so determined to claim victimhood on behalf of minorities so you can claim moral superiority and allow you to act the way you are acting!
> 
> Its all about you!



Acting in what way?? . 

I'm not claiming victimhood, here, but I do listen to the experiences and real fears of those who are victimised yes. 

And will bring it to people's attention,. 

It makes for uncomfortable reading / listening.

To deny it happens, is to deny reality, and allows it to continue more easily, unhindered, that's not something I'm personally comfortable with.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> As a privileged white male cyclist I would like to see more cyclists on the road no matter their gender, colour or creed. I don't think that there are generally overt barriers to cycling as a whole laid down by your average cyclist, although I am aware that attitudes in some clubs and a 'pink it and shrink it' design ethos may have really held back potential cyclists in the past. I don't think that blame for a lack of diversity in cycling can be laid totally on men, it is far more nuanced and complicated than that. What is for sure that as a cyclist human we all should try to stop being daffodils and just get along with each other so that overall the entire human race succeeds.​



curious to know what you mean by daffodils??

Is it a bit like snow-flakes or some such.

Taking things back to the op's original topic , i think he was talking particularly about wanting to get his daughters into , and feeling totally comfortable about cycling yes??

Obviously we would all want that as a chance for them, if they like cycling at all - that preference is not gendered usually, until other factors kick in. .

But we do still hear of women cyclists being afraid to go out by themselves , being harassed when they do - and i certainly know many who wouldn't for instance do what i do - go off for weeks at a time cycling and camping by themselves.

When questioned as to why not - its usually along the lines of fear of harassment - or worse - by dodgy guys ..

They never say oh i'm worried i might get molested by a woman - because we know that doesn't happen does it??

Of course the chances of being bothered by a guy is fairly low as well, but the fear, as much as anything is still there - as a result of it having happened to a few - and that fear in itself is a restrictor.

We know that the real dangers posed are usually more in town or in the home - but that's another matter..


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Acting in what way?? .
> 
> I'm not claiming victimhood, here, but I do listen to the experiences and real fears of those who are victimised yes.
> 
> ...



There you go again, your impossible!


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> There you go again, your impossible!



Or

Just a possibilty here ..

I might have a point ??



hoopdriver said:


> Just a lot of blather, really



Ouch .. 

There's really no comeback from that particularly incisive piece of commentary


----------



## glasgowcyclist (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> TLDR



Troll Likes Denying Racism?


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Troll Likes Denying Racism?



The only one trolling and being racist on this thread is Mudsticks.


----------



## Milkfloat (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> curious to know what you mean by daffodils??



I think a polite translation would be 'idiots', the impolite version would often refer to genitalia (both male and female).


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> The only one trolling and being racist on this thread is Mudsticks.



By pointing out that racism against poc is still very much active, and places restrictions, and worse on those peoples activities??

Thats quite a leap of logic - to me being racist - right there.

I'm white - i see, and i feel the privelege that confers - whats so hard to comprehend??



Milkfloat said:


> I think a polite translation would be 'idiots', the impolite version would often refer to genitalia (both male and female).



Ah i see - you hope that mankind will stop being idiotic ?
Good luck with that


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> By pointing out that racism against poc is still very much active, and places restrictions, and worse on those peoples activities??
> 
> Thats quite a leap of logic - to me being racist - right there.
> 
> I'm white - i see, and i feel the privelege that confers - whats so hard to comprehend??



There you go with the victimhood again...…..


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> There you go with the victimhood again...…..



OK so please explain how exactly am I claiming victimhood for myself??

Am I stating that others are made victims, because of their sex, or race??

Yes I am,


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> OK so please explain how exactly am I claiming victimhood for myself??
> 
> Am I stating that others are made victims, because of their sex, or race??
> 
> Yes I am,



Jesus H Christ, do you ever stop?

I have been talking about how you refer to white males but every time you quote me you start by referencing some minority that is being oppressed which has nothing to do with what I am talking about!


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

White males.. Yes I referenced them. 

And their privelege. 

And what about it??


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> White males.. Yes I referenced them.
> 
> And their privelege.
> 
> And what about it??



Here is a thought, one way you can tell if someone is being disingenuous or genuine, if you are trying to reach out to a group in society that you want to influence/change then don't use derogatory or divisive language towards them.


----------



## hoopdriver (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Or
> 
> Just a possibilty here ..
> 
> ...


So true. But it was really all your rant deserved.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> Here is a thought, one way you can tell if someone is being disingenuous or genuine, if you are trying to reach out to a group in society that you want to influence/change then don't use derogatory or divisive language towards them.



I've heard some pretty derogatory language used on here, towards women and poc,. Far stronger than male (derogatory?) Or pale. 

I can't say I've ever seen you pulling anyone up on that.. 

But you then claim the right to have the language used to describe those who already have the upper hand, to be everso sensitive to your feelings?? .

Somewhat of a double standard doncha think??


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I've heard some pretty derogatory language used on here, towards women and poc,. Far stronger than male (derogatory?) Or pale.
> 
> I can't say I've ever seen you pulling anyone up on that..
> 
> ...



Nice try at a deflection, It does not answer my post, why would you talk derogatory about a group you which to influence, it makes no sense unless you are just trying to get a rise!?


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

I wasn't being derogatory about 'a group'
By saying male, or pale (white - it's not a big leap is it?) 

Just pointing out how their privelege is exercised, often unthinkingly.

And how we need to recognise and address that fact. 

What's your problem with that??


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> I wasn't being derogatory about 'a group'
> By saying male, or pale (white - it's not a big leap is it?)
> 
> Just pointing out how their privelege is exercised, often unthinkingly.
> ...



Do you ever stop preaching?


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> Do you ever stop preaching?



Only on Fridays


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Only on Fridays



See you tomorrow then...……...


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> See you tomorrow then...……...





Well that would be lovely.. 
But lotsa fieldwork to do tomorrow. 







Trapped in a barn with a load of veg today.. Need some 'company' to relieve the tedium


----------



## User6179 (11 Jul 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Well that would be lovely..
> But lotsa fieldwork to do tomorrow.
> 
> View attachment 474994
> ...



I hope you are not using me as an excuse to stop working.
Anyway I am away for a cycle, I will try not to oppress anyone, promise!


----------



## icowden (11 Jul 2019)

Drifting back to the topic...

I do wonder how the demogrpahic of where you live / cycle affects the mix.
For example I cycle a lot in central london where frankly every type of person is likely to be found on a bike. Black, white, brown, male, female etc.
It seems to be pretty diverse, although probably still more men than women and more white than BAME.

On the other hand, when I get back to surrey, it is a lot less diverse amongst the adults but still farly diverse amongst the kids cycling to school.
Some of the male / female divide in Surrey could be around child-care. In my experience it is still the majority case that mums do school run in the car. There are dads and grandparents too, but it's mostly the mums.

On yet another hand (I think that's 3 hands now) most cycling clubs tend to be majority white middle aged men. However white middle aged men is probably a majority demographic for that age group in my area of Surrey, so is it just reflecting the current diversity of that age group and the desire of our wives to have us out from underfoot?

And on yet another hand there is also the impact of religion - for example some varieties of Islam regard cycling to be immodest for women.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Eddy said:


> I hope you are not using me as an excuse to stop working.
> Anyway I am away for a cycle, I will try not to oppress anyone, promise!



It's OK.. I'm my own boss.. 

Which nowadays roughly translates as 

"Spends wayy too much time d*cking about on internet forums, under the pretence of answering customer emails"

Never mind just policing your own oppressive tendencies, it's now your job as an enlightened 'white male' cyclist to see that no one else does any oppressing.. .. 

Now be on your way, with the righteous sword of inclusivity at your side.. 
(or strapped to the cross bar - if you must)


----------



## Heltor Chasca (11 Jul 2019)

There are some interesting Segways coming out of this for me. I for one am also interested as to why I am harsher on my own demographic. I could often be in the same boat as @mudsticks and find myself being harshest towards the white, male and stale group. It’s the same group I belong to so I’m intrigued as to why I am like this. I think I need to psycho-analyse myself or at least get a professional to do it. My background is complex so good luck to them.

Supporting female and POC/BAME cycling I think I’ve justified why I want to do that. Something is broken in that regard in our society and nothing upthread has fully addressed my OP. Do not get me wrong, I’ve learned a few things. I appreciate and respect @mudsticks for putting ones head above the parapet in this respect.

Maybe solo cycling is easy to start and take up regardless of who and what you are. So let’s forget solitary pursuits and commuting.

Maybe if I respectfully narrow my questions in my OP specifically to GROUP or CLUB cycling and getting diversity within those realms. Minority groups do not want to dive in. A member of one of my clubs belongs to BOB (Brothers on Bikes which is a Muslim club) I need to find a way of asking him stuff without offence.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> There are some interesting Segways coming out of this for me. I for one am also interested as to why I am harsher on my own demographic. I could often be in the same boat as @mudsticks and find myself being harshest towards the white, male and stale group. It’s the same group I belong to so I’m intrigued as to why I am like this. I think I need to psycho-analyse myself or at least get a professional to do it. My background is complex so good luck to them.
> 
> Supporting female and POC/BAME cycling I think I’ve justified why I want to do that. Something is broken in that regard in our society and nothing upthread has fully addressed my OP. Do not get me wrong, I’ve learned a few things. I appreciate and respect @mudsticks for putting his head above the parapet in this respect.
> 
> ...



Just a guess here, but could it be that you have recognised that male, white, older people have traditionally wielded the most power. 

Set things up (consciously or unconsciously) for their own benefit.

And have taken advantage of or exploited even, these power imbalances to suit their own agenda.

There is plenty of evidence to support this theory, so your discomfiture at this realisation is merely a manifestation of your conscience, speaking some truth to you. 

The conundrum as to what we do about all of this, how we redress the balance, is another matter. 

But I reckon your speaking to, and far more importantly _listening. to these other groups is vital.. _


----------



## Milkfloat (11 Jul 2019)

Narrowing down on club rides simplifies things a bit, however in order to get people cycling in a club, you need people at least interested in cycling. Therefore it is all related. 

In my own club and local clubs I would estimate the BAME members at about 10% and female about 20%. This is significantly lower than 'people on bikes' that I see in the local area. Reasons for this - I am not expert, but I think they are probably the same reasons that have been discussed in the past and indeed in this thread; lack of free time, status, danger perception, lack of role models, cultural dominance of other sports/activities etc. I am aware of some success Breeze rides nearby that the clubs have not really tried to capitalise on for various reasons.


----------



## AuroraSaab (11 Jul 2019)

I see all sorts of people cycling in suburban Manchester. The commuters are mostly men in lycra, but lots of school kids (mostly boys), and lots of women during the day. I think many women, including me, would be put off joining a cycling club because of the perception that it would be a competitive environment and most women seem to cycle for fun or as a way to get from A to B. 

What is interesting is why girls and boys both learn to ride bikes as kids and after around age 11, and the move to high school, many girls stop riding bikes. Is it the perception that it's a boy thing? Is it uncool to be seen riding a bike as a girl?


----------



## Julia9054 (11 Jul 2019)

AuroraSaab said:


> I think many women, including me, would be put off joining a cycling club because of the perception that it would be a competitive environment


This applies to me. I assume that if I turn up to a group ride with people I don't know that, if I am the only woman, i am going to be the slowest and hold everyone up. This is, however, in my head - I have been in this situation several times and it rarely turns out to be the case.


----------



## slowmotion (11 Jul 2019)

Julia9054 said:


> This applies to me. I assume that if I turn up to a group ride with people I don't know that, if I am the only woman, i am going to be the slowest and hold everyone up. This is, however, in my head - I have been in this situation several times and it rarely turns out to be the case.


I think that applies to quite a lot of male cyclists too. I'm pale , male and stale and have absolutely no interest in being competitive on two wheels.


----------



## mudsticks (11 Jul 2019)

slowmotion said:


> I think that applies to quite a lot of male cyclists too. I'm pale , male and stale and have absolutely no interest in being competitive on two wheels.



I wonder if its just a self fulfilling image problem.
I'm no club rider, I'll go riding with at most three other friends, and that's pretty rare, mostly it's just me and the countryside, going at whatever pace suits.

I do come across groups of what appear to be mostly gentlemen of a certain age, wearing similar t shirts, when I'm out for a ride, I'll even stop for a chat sometimes.

I guess they're club riders of some sort.

Maybe it's just me, but it all comes across a bit blokey banterish, and slightly competitive, even if not intentionally so.

I'm sure it's great, for those who are inclined to such things.

But maybe the whole slightly cliquey thing, and Strava stats comparisons, doesn't suit everyone.

I get a slightly astonished reaction, if it is discovered I've been on the road for _days on end, _but that I don't have a bike computer*. 


* I guess this is a variant on "I don't have a telly"
 - don't have one of them, not neither..


----------



## Julia9054 (11 Jul 2019)

slowmotion said:


> I think that applies to quite a lot of male cyclists too. I'm pale , male and stale and have absolutely no interest in being competitive on two wheels.


Actually, I am very competitive. I just tend to assume that if I am the only woman, I will be too slow for the group.


----------



## Smokin Joe (11 Jul 2019)

In the past virtually all cycling enthusiasts were members of a club. That isn't the case today and I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage who are is very small. Most riders I know either go solo or with a few friends.


----------



## hoopdriver (11 Jul 2019)

I’m totally solo and couldn’t imagine going in a group. I love the solitude and tranquility and, frankly, the stretching-cat selfishness of going where and when I please and at whatever pace I choose, without recourse to anyone


----------



## Randomnerd (11 Jul 2019)

https://cyclingindustry.news/divers...nt-doing-enough-to-appeal-to-minority-groups/


----------



## Randomnerd (11 Jul 2019)

https://theconversation.com/the-unbearable-whiteness-of-cycling-76256


----------



## Heltor Chasca (11 Jul 2019)

Julia9054 said:


> Actually, I am very competitive. I just tend to assume that if I am the only woman, I will be too slow for the group.



Audax has taught me that women are by and large amazing at long distances. Mind over matter triumphs over male physical prowess. Obviously the men that are good, both mentally and physically do best. Long distance and ultra distance is a much more level playing field and the popular ‘celebs’ are female. Emily Chappell, Lael Wilcox, Jenny Graham, Judith Swallow etc etc.

I am very lucky that I have no issues being *chicked?

*Overtaken / outridden by a woman.


----------



## slowmotion (11 Jul 2019)

I went fishing for bass on The Manacles, Cornwall. It struck me that I never seem to have seen any BAME anglers anywhere. Should I beat myself up about it or just come to the conclusion that fishing isn't for everybody?


----------



## Mugshot (11 Jul 2019)

AuroraSaab said:


> What is interesting is why girls and boys both learn to ride bikes as kids and after around age 11, and the move to high school, many girls stop riding bikes. Is it the perception that it's a boy thing? Is it uncool to be seen riding a bike as a girl?


Probably yes. I'd say it was a societal issue where women, and men, are increasingly expected to conform to an ideal. Sweaty and red in the face are not generally considered to be a good look for a young woman and it's not just cycling but participation in any form of exercise that is becoming an issue for adolescent females. In no way looking to open a debate, something as simple as wearing a helmet could be enough to prevent young women from cycling, not only from looking a bit silly when it's on but also from your hair being particularly unkempt when you take it off. This is before you even consider the excellent points that @mudsticks has been making.
If we want to have more women (I realise the OP is looking for wider inclusivity) cycling we should perhaps be looking at how exercise is approached through their school years and do something to tackle the unrealistic role models they are presented with and try to introduce and/or promote some more positive ones.


----------



## AuroraSaab (12 Jul 2019)

I agree. Having taught in mixed and single sex secondary schools, I would say girls in single sex schools are less inhibited about taking part in subjects like Science, sports, metalwork etc. simply because there are no boys there. It doesn't take much to put kids off anything and social conditioning and peer pressure is a huge influence on their behaviours.


----------



## gbb (12 Jul 2019)

AuroraSaab said:


> I agree. Having taught in mixed and single sex secondary schools, I would say girls in single sex schools are less inhibited about taking part in subjects like Science, sports, metalwork etc. simply because there are no boys there. It doesn't take much to put kids off anything and social conditioning and peer pressure is a huge influence on their behaviours.


Then perhaps there's a general lack of confidence with kids, the confidence to go against the flow, perhaps if we remedy that things would be better all round, in so many ways for society.
I think of my GD, 14, at 13 suffered a bout of lack of confidence because so called friends picked up on a blemish on her upper lip.....fer chrissakes, she's becoming a young beautiful woman and all they could do was pick on her for something as insignificant as that. After some 'coaching' from the family, we toughened her up for want of a better word. Now at 14, she expresses herself beautifully, plays football, sings, plays guitar, drums, talks well and with confidence, is in the top 3 children in her year...she puts me (61) right sometimes and shows no embarrassment doing it, supreme confidence. (yesterday early evening i happened across her headed home...'whatcha doing Hollie ?, have you been hanging around with friends ?'...her answer....'i don't 'do' hanging around grandad' 

This is where it needs to begin, instill confidence, at school or at home. Everything else will follow, be it diversity in cycling, whatever.


----------



## mustang1 (12 Jul 2019)

I see a pattern here with activities such as 
Sky diving
Cycling
Rally car racing
Formula 1
Cricket
Bungee jumping
Climbing mount Everest
Gliders
And plenty other activities.


----------



## johnblack (12 Jul 2019)

mustang1 said:


> I see a pattern here with activities such as
> Sky diving
> Cycling
> Rally car racing
> ...


Morris Dancing


----------



## Andy in Germany (13 Jul 2019)

I was thinking about this thread while taking a pile of cardboard off to be recycled today. The picture above shows a fairly typical part of the route.

Notice that I am well away from that nasty big road.

Once out of our village, where I was on a residential street that is a dead end for cars, I was on this sort of traffic free route right up to about 10 metres from the recycling centre. In fact, my route is more direct than the local roads for various historical reasons.

Even in the pishing rain there were a few cyclists about, and in an admittedly unscientific survey, there seemed to be about a 50/50 gender split, on MTB's, Dutch style bikes, with and without trailers. The only thing I didn't see was roadies in lycra.

Equally there were very few wearing h*lm*ts, which (whether right or wrong) is often a good indicator of how safe people feel on bikes.

My route included town and countryside, open areas and woodland and it made no difference to the numbers of cyclists around me.

As said up thread, I think this is the best way to make cycling 'inclusive': make sure there's safe and convenient infrastructure so cycling can be a normal activity for people regardless of gender.


----------

