# Why oh why did I bother with 11 speed?



## Racing roadkill (18 Apr 2018)

I spent many many years, riding 6 speed bikes, and I was pushing the boundaries when I made the transition to the ( quite frankly ) gobsmacking heady heights of 9 speed. Then two ten speed bikes made it in to my line up. Then I took a gigantic leap into the here and now, and went to 11 speed, on one of my bikes. Today I changed the cassette on my trusty 9 speed, for an 11-30 tooth. It’s left me wondering what the point of the 11 speed is. The 10 speeds are justifiable for their Carbon frame sets, which are noticeably better for me, on distance rides, but the 11 speed really does seem like total frippery, given the 9 speed’s performance, with the new cassette. Lord only knows what will happen if any manufacturer decides to introduce a 12 speed set up. I can’t see that happening though, it’s just too far fetched.


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## Drago (18 Apr 2018)

12 speed is already here... SRAM launched theirs last month, and Campag have taken out a load of road gruppo 12 speed patents, so presumably they're not far behind.

I don't know at what point the benefits of ever decreasing gaps between adjacent ratios starts to be outweighed by the extra mass.


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## PeteXXX (18 Apr 2018)

It’s like razors... One blade worked for years, now the manufacturers are attempting to out-blade each other with more and more blades, and wilder claims of efficacy.


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## Racing roadkill (18 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> 12 speed is already here... SRAM launched theirs last month, and Campag have taken out a load of road gruppo 12 speed patents, so presumably they're not far behind.


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## smutchin (18 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> I don't know at what point the benefits of ever decreasing gaps between adjacent ratios starts to be outweighed by the extra mass.



Makes no difference to the pros as long as the UCI continue to enforce the 6.8kg weight limit, since it is already easily possible to undercut that.

Of course, as well as 12-speed cassettes, single chainrings are on the rise as well - Aqua Blue are riding the 3T Strada this year, which is designed for 1x12 gearing (though they are currently running 1x11).


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## confusedcyclist (18 Apr 2018)

Law of diminishing returns bites again, I imagine the main attraction will be for the 1x crowd, and likely spare cassettes will set you back £150 or somesuch and you might as well just stick with the FD to maintain the same range of gears.


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## derrick (18 Apr 2018)

It's all about cadence.


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## User6179 (18 Apr 2018)

I remember riding a triple 7 speed and everybody telling me you don't need 21 gears, the same folk all running 22 speed now


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## screenman (18 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> Law of diminishing returns bites again, I imagine the main attraction will be for the 1x crowd, and likely spare cassettes will set you back £150 or somesuch and you might as well just stick with the FD to maintain the same range of gears.



What else would you do with the money, honest though this has been going on since Adam's time. I could almost hear you spit out the words " 1 x crowd"


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## fixedfixer (18 Apr 2018)

Eddy said:


> I remember riding a triple 7 speed and everybody telling me you don't need 21 gears, the same folk all running 22 speed now



I still ride one. Drive chains last for years


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## User6179 (18 Apr 2018)

UOTE="fixedfixer, post: 5217645, member: 12286"]I still ride one. Drive chains last for years [/QUOTE]

Aye but I imagine you will have a constipated look on 25% gradient hills







Edit- When you say 1, do you mean one gear or one 7 speed triple?


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## fossyant (18 Apr 2018)

Look at 12 Speed Eagle cassette prices. OMG


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## davidphilips (18 Apr 2018)

Perhaps for pro racers there may be some benefit, But for the likes of myself i can go round the same 30 mile route with a 70s bike with down tube shifters as i can on a modern carbon bike with 8 more gears, maybe a few seconds in it but certainly not noticeable to me so an extra gear or three to me any way may be a nice talking point but would certainly not improve my cycling performance.


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## smutchin (18 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> It's all about cadence.



I think you'll find it's all about capitalism.


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## Drago (18 Apr 2018)

Eventually there'll be eleventy-eight geared bikes with a single tooth difference between each. I've no problem with it at all, but wonder what it really brings to the non professional cyclist.


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## derrick (18 Apr 2018)

smutchin said:


> I think you'll find it's all about capitalism.


I will stick with cadence,


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## Bollo (18 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> Law of diminishing returns bites again, I imagine the main attraction will be for the 1x crowd, and likely spare cassettes will set you back £150 or somesuch and you might as well just stick with the FD to maintain the same range of gears.


Putting on my @Tim Hall sponsored pedantry cap, shurely the "1x" crowd are the crowd that are happy with things as they are. I think you want the "+1 crowd". Or maybe they're a brigade? It's difficult to keep up with the organisational structure of the indignant.


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## rualexander (18 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> 12 speed is already here... SRAM launched theirs last month.......



Last year I think.


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## Smokin Joe (18 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> Eventually there'll be eleventy-eight geared bikes with a single tooth difference between each. I've no problem with it at all, but wonder what it really brings to the non professional cyclist.


Nothing really, but they have to market it in order for the pros to be able to use it in competition. Those who buy it have, and you can choose in order of preference;-

1/ More money than sense
2/ Enough disposable income to easily afford it


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## smutchin (18 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> they have to market it in order for the pros to be able to use it in competition



ITYM they have to market it in order to be able to force the pros to use it in competition.


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## tyred (18 Apr 2018)

I prefer one of these:





A gear for the flat, a gear for going up hill and one for going down hill.


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## Pale Rider (18 Apr 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> Continuously Variable Transmission's where it's at. Someone will invent one soon. Again.



What you need is a NuVinci.

I've tried a bike with one fitted, weird sensation to start with but I suppose you would get used to it.

What they don't tell you about is the extra drag, which is why it's never caught on for push bikes but is fitted to a few ebikes.

http://nuvincicycling.com/en/products/harmony.html


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## Ian H (18 Apr 2018)

Now, if someone could bring out a thoughtfully designed touring groupset...


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## bpsmith (18 Apr 2018)

The old “More money than sense” comments, yet again. 

Still remains the most ridiculously illogical sentence that it is. Not to mention, fecking boring. ;-)


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## dan_bo (18 Apr 2018)

fossyant said:


> Look at 12 Speed Eagle cassette prices. OMG


You missed out the F mate


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## Beebo (18 Apr 2018)

PeteXXX said:


> It’s like razors... One blade worked for years, now the manufacturers are attempting to out-blade each other with more and more blades, and wilder claims of efficacy.


What a Luddite. You clearly aren’t using the Infinitim ad nauseum.


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## Smokin Joe (18 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> The old “More money than sense” comments, yet again.
> 
> Still remains the most ridiculously illogical sentence that it is. Not to mention, fecking boring. ;-)


My post was badly worded. I have altered it to read, "Now you can choose in order of preference", as I did not intend to give the impression that option 1 was my own first choice.

Which it isn't.


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## fossyant (18 Apr 2018)

dan_bo said:


> You missed out the F mate



Thought I'd get in trouble for swearing !


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## Milzy (18 Apr 2018)

The campag 12 speed cassette is £300


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## screenman (18 Apr 2018)

davidphilips said:


> Perhaps for pro racers there may be some benefit, But for the likes of myself i can go round the same 30 mile route with a 70s bike with down tube shifters as i can on a modern carbon bike with 8 more gears, maybe a few seconds in it but certainly not noticeable to me so an extra gear or three to me any way may be a nice talking point but would certainly not improve my cycling performance.



Fine, but if bikes had stayed in the twenties?


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## fossyant (18 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> The campag 12 speed cassette is £300



That's cheap as chips compared to Eagle XX1 / X01


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## Andrew_P (18 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> The campag 12 speed cassette is £300


Just have to wait a year for the "Trickle down..."

My biggest beef once the osts come down will be chain wear the.11 speeds are definitely more fragile


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## Milzy (18 Apr 2018)

Andrew_P said:


> Just have to wait a year for the "Trickle down..."
> 
> My biggest beef once the osts come down will be chain wear the.11 speeds are definitely more fragile


I couldn’t find an Ultegra 6800 in 11-32 so had to buy a 105. Can’t wait for the next trickle down.


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## gaijintendo (18 Apr 2018)

fossyant said:


> Look at 12 Speed Eagle cassette prices. OMG


I guess that's the use case; a massive range with moderate steps. Ideal for a 1x set up.

It might be expensive, but it's a pioneer product. And it is cheaper than a Dura Ace cassette...


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## Milzy (18 Apr 2018)

I’d rather have a top frame with Tiagra on than a lesser frame with Dura ace on, I’ll tell you that.


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## ChrisEyles (18 Apr 2018)

I'm slowly building up a new bike at the moment, and of all the available gearing choices I've opted for 3x8. For practicality, affordability, and durability, you can't really beat it.

Ridden 2x11 on a friend's MTB, and just had to double shift all the time


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## bpsmith (18 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> I couldn’t find an Ultegra 6800 in 11-32 so had to buy a 105. Can’t wait for the next trickle down.





Milzy said:


> I’d rather have a top frame with Tiagra on than a lesser frame with Dura ace on, I’ll tell you that.



Why do you need a top end frame if you also need an 11-32 cassette? Kind of contradictory, as anyone truly utilising the difference between a good frame and a top end frame, are likely not to need a 32 tooth lowest gear.


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## Adam4868 (18 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Why do you need a top end frame if you also need an 11-32 cassette? Kind of contradictory, as anyone truly utilising the difference between a good frame and a top end frame, are likely not to need a 32 tooth lowest gear.


Plenty of pros use 30 cassettes on the grand tours ?


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## Milzy (18 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Why do you need a top end frame if you also need an 11-32 cassette? Kind of contradictory, as anyone truly utilising the difference between a good frame and a top end frame, are likely not to need a 32 tooth lowest gear.


Because I’m doing the Fred Whitton and a trip to the Alps. My local area I use 25t. Always better to be over geard than under geard. Even pros are using bigger sprockets in the mountains now. Why put loads of torque through your knees when you can spin to win. Grinding is slower, proved on the GCN show.

You sound like a Rapha brigade cycle snob who isn’t bad but just quite can’t cut cat 3.


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## davidphilips (18 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Fine, but if bikes had stayed in the twenties?





Now i may open myself up to a bit of criticism with this but in my view the main improvements with bikes in the last 30/40 years for the average cyclist are brakes, lights and tyres.
To answer your question if bikes had stayed in the twenties i think most of us would still enjoy cycling?


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## derrick (18 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> The campag 12 speed cassette is £300


Does anyone still use Campagnolo?


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## bpsmith (18 Apr 2018)

Adam4868 said:


> Plenty of pros use 30 cassettes on the grand tours ?





Milzy said:


> Because I’m doing the Fred Whitton and a trip to the Alps. My local area I use 25t. Always better to be over geard than under geard. Even pros are using bigger sprockets in the mountains now. Why put loads of torque through your knees when you can spin to win. Grinding is slower, proved on the GCN show.
> 
> You sound like a Rapha brigade cycle snob who isn’t bad but just quite can’t cut cat 3.



Given you both likes for those replies, as some Pro’s do use 30’s at times. Some are Domestique’s who just want to save themselves to work hard another day. Others are able to pump out serious cadence all day long. The question is whether they also have a Compact or a Standard in conjunction.

The likes are for comparing yourselves to Pro’s btw. 

Grinding vs Spinning is dependent on the rider. It depends on your legs and what your riding style is. I know an awesome rider who regularly grinds, but then can’t spin well. Powering down a climb, he couldn’t catch up with me because he said that he couldn’t spin as fast as me. He’s a way better rider than I am without question, but if he had to spin then he wouldn’t be as good as he is.

With respect to the dig about Rapha cyclists, I am a Castelli man @Milzy, at least get the brand right.


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## Milzy (18 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> Does anyone still use Campagnolo?


Has it’s fan base. Mechanical feel, rapid thumb shifters. Not really my thing. I’d have a super record groupset for nothing though.


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## fixedfixer (18 Apr 2018)

Eddy said:


> UOTE="fixedfixer, post: 5217645, member: 12286"]I still ride one. Drive chains last for years





> . Aye but I imagine you will have a constipated look on 25% gradient hills
> 
> 
> 
> ...



46/36/26 x 13/32 rear, I smile on hills


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## Milzy (18 Apr 2018)

Castillo 


bpsmith said:


> Given you both likes for those replies, as some Pro’s do use 30’s at times. Some are Domestique’s who just want to save themselves to work hard another day. Others are able to pump out serious cadence all day long. The question is whether they also have a Compact or a Standard in conjunction.
> 
> The likes are for comparing yourselves to Pro’s btw.
> 
> ...


Castelli is fine. Decent quality without silly prices and a few earthy club members use their kit. I can happily do many steep climbs on 25/28 but not all day long one after the other especially after 100 miles or so. Bail out gears for the win.


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## FishFright (18 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> Does anyone still use Campagnolo?



Me; I love the look , the feel and the brifters fit my small hands.


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## raleighnut (18 Apr 2018)

FishFright said:


> Me; I love the look , the feel and the brifters fit my small hands.


Plus that big 'kerlunk kerchang sound lets you know you have shifted on a 1 tooth 'corncob' cassette.








EDIT - there are 10 cogs on that cassette.


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## bpsmith (18 Apr 2018)

Milzy said:


> Castillo
> 
> Castelli is fine. Decent quality without silly prices and a few earthy club members use their kit. I can happily do many steep climbs on 25/28 but not all day long one after the other especially after 100 miles or so. Bail out gears for the win.


Now the banter is out of the way, my comment on the frame and low gearing wasn’t actually a dig at anyone using a 30. I was just trying to say that the mid level frames are so good these days that you’d need to be pushing harder on it to get the benefit of the difference between mid and top end frames. Spinning doesn’t put the same strain on the bike, much like the knees.


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## gds58 (18 Apr 2018)

rualexander said:


> Last year I think.


SRAM Eagle 12 speed has been around for the last two years and Campagnolo very recently launched their new Record 12 Speed Road Groupset. Whoever it was that made the comment ‘it’s all about cadence’ was actually pretty spot on. 12 speed cassettes allow for more 1 tooth only increments across the range thereby allowing you to maintain exactly the right cadence as the gradient changes rather than sudden changes in cadence due to 2 or 3 tooth jumps from one sprocket to the next. I would hazard a guess that many of those who are deriding the introduction of 12 speed either don’t know or understand the importance of a correct cadence or aren’t bothered about riding with a good cadence. 
12 speed has also allowed the increasing popularity of 1 x systems which are becoming ever more common across all cycling disciplines.
I work in the trade so I see first hand how everything evolves.


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

Ian H said:


> Now, if someone could bring out a thoughtfully designed touring groupset...


3X Shimano XT?


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> The old “More money than sense” comments, yet again.
> 
> Still remains the most ridiculously illogical sentence that it is. Not to mention, fecking boring. ;-)



The truth hurts doesn't it.


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> What else would you do with the money, honest though this has been going on since Adam's time. I could almost hear you spit out the words " 1 x crowd"



I could think of lots of things to do with the money, but that's just me!


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## Racing roadkill (19 Apr 2018)

The terms “grinding / spinning” belong in the ‘irritating isn’t it?’ thread as well. I prefer the terms Cadence bias, and Torque bias, as they are more technical terms. I’ve always preferred getting the power by torque biasing, my bikes are set up and geared accordingly. It’s another reason why 11 speed + set ups are overkill for my riding requirements. There was a prime example of how I do things, versus the accepted / internet trope way, a lot of people prefer to ride, last Sunday. I happened across a Sportive, and so many of the riders were riding with ridiculous looking ( to me ) cadences, and I was flying past them, using a far lower Cadence, just Torque biasing my riding, to get ( obviously) more power than a lot of them. I think a lot of the ‘Cadence bias-ers’ don’t understand that they also need ‘Souplesse’ to get it to work properly, or they just look like Lycra clad hamsters, on a wheel, and really aren’t doing themselves the favour, they believe they are.


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> The terms “grinding / spinning” belong in the ‘irritating isn’t it?’ thread as well. I prefer the terms Cadence bias, and Torque bias, as they are more technical terms. I’ve always preferred getting the power by torque biasing, my bikes are set up and geared accordingly. It’s another reason why 11 speed + set ups are overkill for my riding requirements. There was a prime example of how I do things, versus the accepted / internet trope way, a lot of people prefer to ride, last Sunday. I happened across a Sportive, and so many of the riders were riding with ridiculous looking ( to me ) cadences, and I was flying past them, using a far lower Cadence, just Torque biasing my riding, to get ( obviously) more power than a lot of them. I think a lot of the ‘Cadence bias-ers’ don’t understand that they also need ‘Souplesse’ to get it to work properly, or they just look like Lycra clad hamsters, on a wheel, and really aren’t doing themselves the favour, they believe they are.



Given that it was a sportive, isn't it also possible they were not racing, and thus did not care much for speed and were simply training for high cadence?


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## raleighnut (19 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> Given that it was a sportive, isn't it also possible they were not racing, and thus did not care much for speed and were simply training for high cadence?


Yeah, right.


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## smutchin (19 Apr 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> The terms “grinding / spinning” belong in the ‘irritating isn’t it?’ thread as well. I prefer the terms Cadence bias, and Torque bias, as they are more technical terms.



I prefer the terms 'grinding' and 'spinning' as they relate more to how I feel when I'm riding, so are easier to understand, rather than being meaningless pseudo-science jargon.

Also 'cadence bias-ers' is a horrible mouthful compared to 'spinners'.


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## GuyBoden (19 Apr 2018)

If you're a dedicated serious road racer, you need the best equipment you can buy, you're trying to win the race, so you need any small advantage.

For pootling around country lanes, I don't need 11 speed or even 12 speed. I could even use single speed.


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## MichaelW2 (19 Apr 2018)

I think the optimum gear count was achieved with 8 speed. The thickness of metal was sufficient for stamped steel entry-level production, thinner modern units need high strength materials or carriers. The gaps between cogs was sufficient to avoid high precision cable movements enabling better running between services. The chains were wider, again permitting entry level materials to use the design and maintain durability. Tourists, roadies, MTBers and couriers used 8 speed in all levels of qualities for long distance riding for many years.


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## derrick (19 Apr 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> The terms “grinding / spinning” belong in the ‘irritating isn’t it?’ thread as well. I prefer the terms Cadence bias, and Torque bias, as they are more technical terms. I’ve always preferred getting the power by torque biasing, my bikes are set up and geared accordingly. It’s another reason why 11 speed + set ups are overkill for my riding requirements. There was a prime example of how I do things, versus the accepted / internet trope way, a lot of people prefer to ride, last Sunday. I happened across a Sportive, and so many of the riders were riding with ridiculous looking ( to me ) cadences, and I was flying past them, using a far lower Cadence, just Torque biasing my riding, to get ( obviously) more power than a lot of them. I think a lot of the ‘Cadence bias-ers’ don’t understand that they also need ‘Souplesse’ to get it to work properly, or they just look like Lycra clad hamsters, on a wheel, and really aren’t doing themselves the favour, they believe they are.


It's just the cadence that suits the person riding we are not pro's, (bias)


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## Milzy (19 Apr 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> The terms “grinding / spinning” belong in the ‘irritating isn’t it?’ thread as well. I prefer the terms Cadence bias, and Torque bias, as they are more technical terms. I’ve always preferred getting the power by torque biasing, my bikes are set up and geared accordingly. It’s another reason why 11 speed + set ups are overkill for my riding requirements. There was a prime example of how I do things, versus the accepted / internet trope way, a lot of people prefer to ride, last Sunday. I happened across a Sportive, and so many of the riders were riding with ridiculous looking ( to me ) cadences, and I was flying past them, using a far lower Cadence, just Torque biasing my riding, to get ( obviously) more power than a lot of them. I think a lot of the ‘Cadence bias-ers’ don’t understand that they also need ‘Souplesse’ to get it to work properly, or they just look like Lycra clad hamsters, on a wheel, and really aren’t doing themselves the favour, they believe they are.


Interesting post. I’ll be going 12 speed when it’s more affordable.


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## Andrew_P (19 Apr 2018)

I use as many gears as I have, more the merrier.

I prefer closer ratios overall and got used to 53/39 11/26.

If I was going to be doing a lot of climbing I would definitely want a semi or compact plus 32.

I had a 32 on a CX bike ten speed and the jumps were horrible so 12 would be good for that.


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## raleighnut (19 Apr 2018)

Andrew_P said:


> I use as many gears as I have, more the merrier.
> 
> I prefer closer ratios overall and got used to 53/39 11/26.
> 
> ...


My Campagnolo 10 speed rear cassette on the TT bike is 12-23 with a 53-39 on the front.


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## DCBassman (19 Apr 2018)

Very close-ratio!


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## derrick (19 Apr 2018)

raleighnut said:


> My Campagnolo 10 speed rear cassette on the TT bike is 12-23 with a 53-39 on the front.


Not good for the mountains then.


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## DCBassman (19 Apr 2018)

I'm with the 8-speeders. Just seems the right number, be it close ratio or the have-a-cup-of-tea-between-cogs setup I have now.


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## Smokin Joe (19 Apr 2018)

DCBassman said:


> Very close-ratio!


My TT bike used to have 52/42 and a 13-17 five speed block. The top guys used a 54 or a 55t single chainring with the same ratiois.


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## DCBassman (19 Apr 2018)




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## derrick (19 Apr 2018)

Am into long distance rides. I need to keep the right cadence. 11 speed works for me.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> It's just the cadence that suits the person riding we are not pro's, (bias)


True


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## screenman (19 Apr 2018)

Some guys on here sound like their dad's, or even grandads. Most of those not wanting change or saying it is not required have a colour tv.


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## DCBassman (19 Apr 2018)

Some of us are bloomin' ancient, right enough!


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## bpsmith (19 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> The truth hurts doesn't it.


I wouldn’t know tbh.

I don’t have money or sense it appears.


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## swansonj (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Fine, but if bikes had stayed in the twenties?


If you allowed "thirties" instead of "twenties", part of the answer is: people might still be setting world records for highest annual mileage that last 80 years....


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## bpsmith (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Some guys on here sound like their dad's, or even grandads. Most of those not wanting change or saying it is not required have a colour tv.


But they are still riding a penny farthing it seems?


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## User6179 (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Some guys on here sound like their dad's, or even grandads. Most of those not wanting change or saying it is not required have a colour tv.



I always thought more gears are better but an 11 speed with a 54/34 on the front is a step down from a triple 8 speed especially for the heavier rider.


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## derrick (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Some guys on here sound like their dad's, or even grandads. Most of those not wanting change or saying it is not required have a colour tv.


I am a grandad. So i need all the help i can get.. Only 66 though.


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## Racing roadkill (19 Apr 2018)

I prefer to strike a balance between simplicity, reliability, functionality and cost. If I can find a system that does what I need it to do, it doesn’t wear out every five minutes, and doesn’t cost loads, that’s what I’ll go for. I don’t need or want, super expensive fragile ‘state of the art’ kit, because I’m not trying to win things, or ‘smash stuff’. A big part of the reason I ride, is because I like going places and seeing things, whilst keeping fit at the same time, I don’t want anything to interfere with that, or cost a lot, so the way I do things is about right, for me.


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Some guys on here sound like their dad's, or even grandads. Most of those not wanting change or saying it is not required have a colour tv.


It's not so much nostalgia or rose tinted spectacles, some people can see through the marketing gimmicks and realise that someone somewhere is trying to get money for old rope. Those prepared to read between lines from the marketing manuals will keep their hard earned money in their own pockets.


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## screenman (19 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> It's not so much nostalgia or rose tinted spectacles, some people can see through the marketing gimmicks and realise that someone somewhere is trying to sell get money for old rope. Those prepared to read between lines from the marketing manuals will keep their hard earned money in their own pockets.



And stop creating employment.


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> And stop creating employment.


If people stopped buying stuff they didn't need, they wouldn't need paid employment in the first place because they wouldn't need the money!


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## Ian H (19 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> 3X Shimano XT?



That appears to be an MTB set-up.


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## confusedcyclist (19 Apr 2018)

Ian H said:


> That appears to be an MTB set-up.


It works perfectly well on my touring setup.







The gearing is not too high (you would will never reach road bike speeds anyway when loaded up) and has a granny gear and 32 rear cogs. MTB drivetrains are well suited for climbs, which are perfect for a loaded touring bike.

Disclaimer, I use the older 9 speed model which can be had cheap, not the 1x11 (which might limit you on the top or bottom end depending on the cassette/chainring combination.)


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## raleighnut (19 Apr 2018)

derrick said:


> Not good for the mountains then.


There's a couple of hills in Leicestershire I struggled with. 

It was built for 30ish mile 'blasts' to a pub about 2 miles away.


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## Smokin Joe (19 Apr 2018)

Gears are too individual a requirement to say that this is better than that or that is better than this. We all have different engines and physical attributes and whereas six speeds with large jumps between ratios will be ok for one person another will find it murder and ride better with as many sprockets as are available with tiny jumps between ratios.

What's best is what's works for you, there is no right and wrong.


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## overmind (19 Apr 2018)

PeteXXX said:


> It’s like razors... One blade worked for years, now the manufacturers are attempting to out-blade each other with more and more blades, and wilder claims of efficacy.


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## bpsmith (19 Apr 2018)

Wouldn’t it be money for New Rope surely?


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## FishFright (19 Apr 2018)

DCBassman said:


> I'm with the 8-speeders. Just seems the right number, be it close ratio or the have-a-cup-of-tea-between-cogs setup I have now.



I have several oldish editions or Richard's Bicycle Book where the same things is said about 5,6,7,8 and 9 speed


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## DCBassman (19 Apr 2018)

FishFright said:


> I have several oldish editions or Richard's Bicycle Book where the same things is said about 5,6,7,8 and 9 speed


Yes, very true...


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## GuyBoden (19 Apr 2018)

My Uncle, Alan Boden, had no problems with his gears, winning three bronze medals in the National TT races in different years. That made him the third fastest cyclist in the country at his chosen distance in his day.


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## Ian H (19 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> It works perfectly well on my touring setup.



It wouldn't do for me for several reasons, but fine if you like it.


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## bpsmith (19 Apr 2018)

GuyBoden said:


> My Uncle, Alan Boden, had no problems with his gears, winning three bronze medals in the National TT races in different years. That made him the third fastest cyclist in the country at his chosen distance in his day.
> 
> View attachment 405021


We’re others using the same gear numbers or did they have 12 speed though?

All jokes aside, that’s a great achievement and an awesome pic btw!


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

fixedfixer said:


> I still ride one. Drive chains last for years


Isn't there a problem getting 7 speed hubs though? I upgraded a 7 speed to 8 and managed to buy up spare quality shifters etc just before all of those disappeared. In its final days as a 7 speed I well remember someone on a ride saying (without any malice or snobbery I stress) "I've never seen a 7 speed bike". All full of wonder they were.


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> I could think of lots of things to do with the money, but that's just me!


yes, me too - travel, fine beer, the list is endless. The wonder of money - it's not product specific. I think that was the idea.


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

DCBassman said:


> I'm with the 8-speeders. Just seems the right number, be it close ratio or the have-a-cup-of-tea-between-cogs setup I have now.


Yes I have one 8 speed bike - I quite like a certain clunkiness in the changes. They may sometimes be a bit clunky but they are decisive. And stay there. Little tinkering needed.


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

Ian H said:


> That appears to be an MTB set-up.


I don't see the problem.

MTB stuff has long been used for tourers.


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## Smokin Joe (19 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> We’re others using the same gear numbers or did they have 12 speed though?
> 
> All jokes aside, that’s a great achievement and an awesome pic btw!


That was standard time trial gearing back in the day, the only time you saw a double chainset on a TT bike was if someone also did road racing and used the same bike for both.


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## bpsmith (19 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> That was standard time trial gearing back in the day, the only time you saw a double chainset on a TT bike was if someone also did road racing and used the same bike for both.


It’s before I was into cycling, so I am genuinely interested in the tech at Pro level, so thank you for that. 

What I was trying to say, with the other point, was that the rider was amazing with 3 speed but if others were on 7 speed (for example) could they have beaten him? That’s basically what’s being discussed in this thread with the suggestion that 11/12 speed is pointless when 7/8 speed will suffice. Just poising the question, not trolling.


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## ChrisEyles (19 Apr 2018)

All other things being equal, I'd have thought the racer on an 11 speed set up would have a small advantage over one on a 7 speed. 

In terms of enjoying riding your bike, or how far/fast you can ride when not measured to three significant figures, I don't think it makes much difference (though it can be a lot of fun tinkering around "upgrading" your bike for sure!). 

Most important thing by far is to have a low enough bottom gear to get you up the hills you regularly cycle comfortably.


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## bigjim (19 Apr 2018)

Eddy said:


> I always thought more gears are better but an 11 speed with a 54/34 on the front is a step down from a triple 8 speed especially for the heavier rider.


Can you explain why? I'm intrigued.


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## screenman (19 Apr 2018)

I think often when topics like this are raised that, financial points are at play.


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## bigjim (19 Apr 2018)

Interesting thread that I have only just noticed. Let me tell you a story. Try to stay awake at the back!
Last Sunday, I cocked up the meeting point for the B ride. I usually ride this because it is easy going with plenty of stops. I'm big, heavy and ancient and don't regard myself as a fast rider at all. Nobody at the meeting point! Then an A rider turned up. Saying he was going to meet the A ride some 15 miles away at the coffee stop. I should come with him. Said I would be fine. Well ok. We set off at a hundred miles an hour [or thereabouts]. I motored through the Cheshire lanes, up and down hill, breathing hard, at the side of the Froome lookalike on his carbon steed.
After coffee, unbeknown to me, I was in the fast pack for the ride to the lunch stop. Jeez...






Crazy, to me, pace. But I stuck it out all day even having conversations. Must admit my thighs were on fire. The day finished with some 70 miles under the belt and an average speed of 17/18Mph. And I was still there, but a wreck! I sometimes think we don't realise what we are capable of. I changed gears without noticing and stayed with the TDF minded guys. My bike? A 1980s Dawes Super Galaxy with heavy standard wheels and Marathon thick treaded tyres. I was supposed to be doing some Off road with the B's. I was on a 7speed triple, don't even know the size but it's a standard bike with DT shifters. Where am I going with this? I think it's the heart, lungs and legs we should look after. 
Took Monday off though. knackered.


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## bigjim (19 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Isn't there a problem getting 7 speed hubs though? I upgraded a 7 speed to 8 and managed to buy up spare quality shifters etc just before all of those disappeared. In its final days as a 7 speed I well remember someone on a ride saying (without any malice or snobbery I stress) "I've never seen a 7 speed bike". All full of wonder they were.


Plenty of new 7 speed bikes about. Cheap road bikes or decent Hybrids.


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## Andrew_P (19 Apr 2018)

Let's face it a lot of it is marketing hype I recall my amazement when I first got back on my bike that cycles changed every year bit like new plates on cars. 

Every so often the tech does improve its being able to spot when..

With the group sets they rather cleverly introduce the new tech in the highest value first so milk the cash rich first and the move it down yearly.

There is only so much you can do and also let's be honest you could stick me on the best bike in the world and it wouldn't polish this turd enough that I could compete in cat 3 let alone race pro.

But I do feel there is sweet spot xash wise where my enjoyment is inceeased. Of course it will be different for everyone hence such a wide band of bikes to lust after.

Like any hobby they know the weak spots...


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

bigjim said:


> Plenty of new 7 speed bikes about. Cheap road bikes or decent Hybrids.


Yes I had that impression. And also 8 speed bikes.

But what are those hubs? What quality?

I stress that I am no bike snob and no racer but I need decent stuff - just regreased a pair of XT hubs that are on their second pair of wheels on an entirely different bike - had them 15 years.


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

Andrew_P said:


> With the group sets they rather cleverly introduce the new tech in the highest value first so milk the cash rich first and the move it down yearly.
> 
> .



Have long since stopped clicking on the links from the likes of chainreaction promising mega discounts on groupsets - it's always stuff I personally have no need of whatsoever, is worse for my purposes, and even at the so called bargain prices strikes me as just barmy for anyone but a racer. German retailers are often the answer.


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## Andrew_P (19 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Have long since stopped clicking on the links from the likes of chainreaction promising mega discounts on groupsets - it's always stuff I personally have no need of whatsoever, is worse for my purposes, and even at the so called bargain prices strikes me as just barmy for anyone but a racer. German retailers are often the answer.



I cannot imagine buying one without a bike attached to it!


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## screenman (19 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Have long since stopped clicking on the links from the likes of chainreaction promising mega discounts on groupsets - it's always stuff I personally have no need of whatsoever, is worse for my purposes, and even at the so called bargain prices strikes me as just barmy for anyone but a racer. German retailers are often the answer.



Our of interest do you drive a car that can do more than 70mph.


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## Ming the Merciless (19 Apr 2018)

swansonj said:


> If you allowed "thirties" instead of "twenties", part of the answer is: people might still be setting world records for highest annual mileage that last 80 years....



I wish the roads were as free of cars as back then. Now that would be a true upgrade.


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## bigjim (19 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes I had that impression. And also 8 speed bikes.
> 
> But what are those hubs? What quality?
> 
> I stress that I am no bike snob and no racer but I need decent stuff - just regreased a pair of XT hubs that are on their second pair of wheels on an entirely different bike - had them 15 years.


Depends doesn't it. Are cheaper hubs heavier and therfore more robust? Is it more about the bearings than the hubs? Maybe if one spent more time on regularly servicing the hubs with good grease and maybe better quality bearings they would be as good as more expensive items? They would not be sealed that's for sure but not a bad thing IMO.


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## Grant Fondo (19 Apr 2018)

I updated my old Cannondale MTB from 21 speed to 30 speed, that's a shed load of gears. The smallest chainring is like a 26 so completely useless anyway, although it is hysterical on 26-32.


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## Blue Hills (19 Apr 2018)

screenman said:


> Our of interest do you drive a car that can do more than 70mph.


Sorry I don't get your point.

Are you suggesting that with more gears I will go faster?

If so, please explain.

declaration: I have many bikes - none more than 9 speed.

Would be impressed if 12 speed would mean a 33.333 per cent speed boost, even with my wobbly grasp of physics/biology.


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## ChrisEyles (19 Apr 2018)

Nothing wrong with a 26/32 bottom gear. I'd make use of that on a long slog up an Exmoor hill, especially if laden with camping stuff. Just goes to show it's horses for courses!


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## Ian H (19 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> I don't see the problem.
> 
> MTB stuff has long been used for tourers.



I know. For various reasons that one wouldn't work for me.


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## MichaelW2 (20 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes I had that impression. And also 8 speed bikes.
> 
> But what are those hubs? What quality?
> 
> I stress that I am no bike snob and no racer but I need decent stuff - just regreased a pair of XT hubs that are on their second pair of wheels on an entirely different bike - had them 15 years.


I used a pair of Alivio hubs for all-weather commuting for years. They just kept on rolling nicely.


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## MichaelW2 (20 Apr 2018)

[QUOTE="Andrew_P, post: 5219069, member: 11849
With the group sets they rather cleverly introduce the new tech in the highest value first so milk the cash rich first and the move it down yearly..[/QUOTE]

The trickle-down model has worked well so far but ran into problems with the introduction of disk brakes to road biking. Pros and elite racers did not welcome the technology but everyday commuters and winter training riders did. It required trickle up which the bike industry doesn't do, so held back midrange disk road bikes for many years. Also, modern high count transmission are made thin so require the advanced metallurgy of high end production. Stamping out 11 speed in cheap steel just doesn't work well as it does with 7/8 speed.


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## Blue Hills (20 Apr 2018)

MichaelW2 said:


> I used a pair of Alivio hubs for all-weather commuting for years. They just kept on rolling nicely.


Yes a lot of alivio stuff is fine. I fitted an alivio crankset to my 7 to 8 speed upgrade (original crankset had worn out anyway) and a pal, being daft, said it was a groupset for shopper bikes! The 8 speed shifters I stocked up on are alivio.

PS - did you ever service your Alivio hubs?


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## User6179 (20 Apr 2018)

bigjim said:


> Can you explain why? I'm intrigued.



Where do I start,

WEAR- on a triple 50/39/28 you can basically use the middle ring 90% of the time, about £15 to replace it and the big ring can last for years compared to a compact where you are in the big a lot more and costs about as much as a whole crank set to replace, I reckon the cost of running a compact over its lifetime will easily be at least double that of a triple of same quality

Double shifting, constantly double shifting on undulating roads on a compact

Cross chaining if you don't double shift

Less gears 22 verses 24

Shipping the chain, because on a triple you are almost always on the middle ring with a ring either side you ship the chain less and when it does occasionally drop of the middle it lands on the small ring anyway.


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## Blue Hills (20 Apr 2018)

bigjim said:


> They would not be sealed that's for sure but not a bad thing IMO.



By not sealed you mean not cartridge bearings? If so, I agree. Sealing systems to protect the loose balls are good I think and you tend to get the better seals on more expensive hubs I think.


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## Smokin Joe (20 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> It’s before I was into cycling, so I am genuinely interested in the tech at Pro level, so thank you for that.
> 
> What I was trying to say, with the other point, was that the rider was amazing with 3 speed but if others were on 7 speed (for example) could they have beaten him? That’s basically what’s being discussed in this thread with the suggestion that 11/12 speed is pointless when 7/8 speed will suffice. Just poising the question, not trolling.


Time trialing was a huge branch of the domestic amateur scene for decades and most TT's were held on flat courses, many of them fast dual carriageways as riders chased ever faster times. Five speeds with relatively high gears were all that was required most of the time and it was common to see some riders on a fixed wheel (The 25 mile record set by Chris Boardman in '93 or '94 was on fixed and it stood for sixteen years). So 8, 9, 10, or 11 sprockets would have made no difference back then, but on a hilly course where you need the lower gears to climb and bigger gears to descend the greater range provided by extra ratios would get you round faster.

And in the pro scene some of the climbs now used on the Giro, for example, would have been impossible for most riders with a limited number of gears. Even if umpteen sprockets on the hub make no difference to your own type of cycling they have extended what it is possible to tackle in relative comfort for cyclists in general.


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## Blue Hills (20 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> Even if umpteen sprockets on the hub make no difference to your own type of cycling they have extended what it is possible to tackle in relative comfort for cyclists in general.



Not seeking an argument with you smokin joe for I like your posts, but is this true? For "cyclists in general" surely it just matters that you have a low enough gear. Am not arguing against big sprockets on the back. My 26 inch wheel expedition bike for instance has a 36T. But the bike is still only 9 speed.


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## MichaelW2 (20 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> PS - did you ever service your Alivio hubs?



Yes, about once or twice a year and I kept them packed with grease to prevent ingress of winter gunge.
The economically priced hubs were handbuilt onto OK rims and were as bombproof as any touring wheel you could find. Sold axles were part of the security system I used in a high crime area.


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## Smokin Joe (20 Apr 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Not seeking an argument with you smokin joe for I like your posts, but is this true? For "cyclists in general" surely it just matters that you have a low enough gear. Am not arguing against big sprockets on the back. My 26 inch wheel expedition bike for instance has a 36T. But the bike is still only 9 speed.


That's what suits you, so stick with it as you are spot on for your needs. But as I've said previously, we all have different engines so what suits one would be no good for someone else.


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## fatjel (20 Apr 2018)

In recent years I’ve had (and still have)
Sturmey archer 3 speed
Campagnolo 1x5
Tourney 2x7 
Sora 2x9 
Sora 3x9
Tiagra 3x9
Tiagra 2x10
Zee 1x10
105 2x11
Ultegra 2x11

You can’t spend sense


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## smutchin (20 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> And in the pro scene some of the climbs now used on the Giro, for example, would have been impossible for most riders with a limited number of gears.



Being able to get up hills doesn't depend on the total _number_ of gears, it's the _range_ of gears that matters - just look at downhill racing MTBs, eg: https://www.evanscycles.com/santa-cruz-v10-cc-x01-enve-2018-mountain-bike-EV317685 - just under £10k for a 1x7 set-up!


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## raleighnut (20 Apr 2018)

105 10 speed rear mech and 10 speed 105 standard double crank with 6 speed freewheel and friction shifters.


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## smutchin (20 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> Five speeds with relatively high gears were all that was required most of the time and it was common to see some riders on a fixed wheel



I know a few riders who still use fixed for TTs. I've been thinking of sticking a set of clip-on TT bars on my fixed for next time I do the club 10. I can see a lot of sense in it.

Also a lot of hill climb racers use fixed gear, mainly for lower weight. Again, it doesn't matter if you only have one gear, as long as it's the _right _gear for that climb.


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## smutchin (20 Apr 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> I recall a thread some time ago discussing the advisability of going up Ditchling Beacon on a single speed. I pointed out that I always go up it on a single speed. The single speed in question being my bottom gear, as I've never changed up while ascending it.



Brilliant!


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## DCBassman (20 Apr 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> I recall a thread some time ago discussing the advisability of going up Ditchling Beacon on a single speed. I pointed out that I always go up it on a single speed. The single speed in question being my bottom gear, as I've never changed up while ascending it.


Never got up it in the saddle or even on the bike. The whole one time I tried! But the new setup is designed to let me have another go.


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## bpsmith (20 Apr 2018)

smutchin said:


> I know a few riders who still use fixed for TTs. I've been thinking of sticking a set of clip-on TT bars on my fixed for next time I do the club 10. I can see a lot of sense in it.
> 
> Also a lot of hill climb racers use fixed gear, mainly for lower weight. Again, it doesn't matter if you only have one gear, as long as it's the _right _gear for that climb.


If it’s a constant climb, then fair enough. If it varies then there is no right gear for every aspect of the climb.


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## GuyBoden (20 Apr 2018)

Legend, Beryl Burton. Greatest British female cyclist of all time.

A big chain ring and some serious determination.


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## gds58 (20 Apr 2018)

Eddy said:


> I always thought more gears are better but an 11 speed with a 54/34 on the front is a step down from a triple 8 speed especially for the heavier rider.


Nonsense on so many levels! I’ve never seen or heard of a double chainset with 54/34 combination as there isn’t a road front mech (Double) that could cope with a 20t differential on chainrings. Secondly an 8 Speed triple (3x8) will have so many gear overlaps or almost identical gears that whilst you may have 24 gears to choose from, in reality many are so close to each other as to not make any discernible difference thereby making them redundant. This is why there has been a big move towards 1 x 11 and 1 x 12 systems. I have seen gear charts which show that these systems have 94% of the same total range as a 2 x 10 set-up and they are all usable gears.


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## gds58 (20 Apr 2018)

confusedcyclist said:


> It works perfectly well on my touring setup.
> 
> View attachment 405002
> 
> ...



Wow that is one beautiful bike. I love it and I bet you can spend all day in extreme comfort even when fully loaded up!


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## User6179 (20 Apr 2018)

gds58 said:


> Nonsense on so many levels! I’ve never seen or heard of a double chainset with 54/34 combination as there isn’t a road front mech (Double) that could cope with a 20t differential on chainrings. Secondly an 8 Speed triple (3x8) will have so many gear overlaps or almost identical gears that whilst you may have 24 gears to choose from, in reality many are so close to each other as to not make any discernible difference thereby making them redundant. This is why there has been a big move towards 1 x 11 and 1 x 12 systems. I have seen gear charts which show that these systems have 94% of the same total range as a 2 x 10 set-up and they are all usable gears.



I meant to type 50 not 54 obviously

Look at my other post for the reasons I find a triple better for my needs, I do own an 11 speed bike btw.


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## swansonj (20 Apr 2018)

gds58 said:


> Nonsense on so many levels! I’ve never seen or heard of a double chainset with 54/34 combination as there isn’t a road front mech (Double) that could cope with a 20t differential on chainrings. Secondly an 8 Speed triple (3x8) will have so many gear overlaps or almost identical gears that whilst you may have 24 gears to choose from, in reality many are so close to each other as to not make any discernible difference thereby making them redundant. This is why there has been a big move towards 1 x 11 and 1 x 12 systems. I have seen gear charts which show that these systems have 94% of the same total range as a 2 x 10 set-up and they are all usable gears.


My progressive adaptations of my previous touring bike ended up with a perfectly satisfactory 46/24 front double (12-32 7 speed at rear).


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## Smokin Joe (20 Apr 2018)

GuyBoden said:


> Legend, Beryl Burton. Greatest British female cyclist of all time.
> 
> A big chain ring and some serious determination.
> View attachment 405168


I saw her ride once and I could not believe how low her cadence was. It didn't slow her down, though.


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## bpsmith (20 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> I saw her ride once and I could not believe how low her cadence was. It didn't slow her down, though.


Proves the point about everyone having their own natural cadence.


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## winjim (20 Apr 2018)

So what we've established is that back in the olden days people used to race using the equipment that was available at the time...


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## bpsmith (20 Apr 2018)

winjim said:


> So what we've established is that back in the olden days people used to race using the equipment that was available at the time...


If you believe this thread, they used to race on single speed, when 3 speed was available. Who needs more than 1 gear anyway?


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## winjim (20 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> If you believe this thread, they used to race on single speed, when 3 speed was available. Who needs more than 1 gear anyway?


<Yorkshire> 3 speed? You were lucky. </Yorkshire>


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## smutchin (20 Apr 2018)

gds58 said:


> differential



ITYM “difference”

I wouldn’t normally pick up on this, it’s a common enough usage, but in a thread about gearing it seems important to make the distinction.


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## bpsmith (21 Apr 2018)

winjim said:


> <Yorkshire> 3 speed? You were lucky. </Yorkshire>


Exactly!


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## Apollonius (21 Apr 2018)

One or two random points:

Yes, people still use Campagnolo. I have nothing else, since my cycling experience goes back to the days when there was a choice between "stuff that broke" and Campagnolo. It particularly suits people with small hands. I know one or two women riders who struggle to shift on to the big ring of Shimano systems because of the awkwardness of the swinging brake lever. 

I have not found 11 speed chains to be fragile or quick-wearing. I have passed 6000km on a Campagnolo 11 speed chain and it still shows no wear on the gauge. Admittedly, this is on a fair-weather "best bike". 

I have 9, 10 and 11 speed bikes. The 11 speed is without doubt the slickest, lightest and the most pleasurable to use. Justification enough, since I ride for pleasure.


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## Smokin Joe (21 Apr 2018)

winjim said:


> So what we've established is that back in the olden days people used to race using the equipment that was available at the time...


And the very best that was available too. Were the likes of Burton, Engers, Simpson and the other greats riding today they'd all be on carbon framed bikes with electronic shifting and all the other high tech kit.


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## ColinJ (21 Apr 2018)

Smokin Joe said:


> I saw her ride once and I could not believe how low her cadence was. It didn't slow her down, though.





bpsmith said:


> Proves the point about everyone having their own natural cadence.


Actually, it just shows that she was very determined and powerful; for all we know, she might have been even quicker with a different setup. Just look at her position on the bike, for instance. That was how top riders rode then but no top riders do it like that now.


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## Smokin Joe (21 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Actually, it just shows that she was very determined and powerful; for all we know, she might have been even quicker with a different setup. Just look at her position on the bike, for instance. That was how top riders rode then but no top riders do it like that now.


Yes, but based on the knowledge we had at the time that was seen as the most efficient riding style for speed. Had someone demonstrated a better method to those riders they'd have been on it like a shot.


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## Pale Rider (21 Apr 2018)

I read somewhere it was Lance Armstrong who popularised high cadence riding, inasmuch as other riders saw him winning doing it - and other things, but that's not important right now.

The pic of Beryl Burton shows her riding what appears to be a very highly geared bike, particularly for a lady.

Spinning that top gear would be some effort for a fit male rider.


----------



## bpsmith (21 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> Actually, it just shows that she was very determined and powerful; for all we know, she might have been even quicker with a different setup. Just look at her position on the bike, for instance. That was how top riders rode then but no top riders do it like that now.


That’s fair enough, unless someone can chime in with information we don’t know.

Personally, I find it hard to believe that she didn’t try any other gearing and just rode solely with what is shown.


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## Alan O (21 Apr 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> I read somewhere it was Lance Armstrong who popularised high cadence riding, inasmuch as other riders saw him winning doing it - and other things, but that's not important right now.


He might have re-popularised it, but I remember high cadence being touted as the thing to do back when Lance was still only on aspirin. For example, my 1979 edition of Richard's says "_Generally, novices run from 60 to 85 strokes per minute, experienced tourists approach 100, and racers run 120-30 and up. Most people gear too high and pedal too slowly._"


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## ColinJ (21 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> That’s fair enough, unless someone can chime in with information we don’t know.
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to believe that she didn’t try any other gearing and just rode solely with what is shown.


It would be interesting to know such things but unless somebody has meticulously documented the details of such experiments we are unlikely to ever find out.

If I had been a serious rider, I would have experimented with everything.


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## Smokin Joe (21 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> That’s fair enough, unless someone can chime in with information we don’t know.
> 
> Personally, I find it hard to believe that she didn’t try any other gearing and just rode solely with what is shown.


I think that like most of us she grew up copying what the top riders of the day did. You tend to think that if they are all doing it then it must be the right way.

Interestingly enough, it was purely a time trial thing. Even TT riders reverted to standard gearing when they competed in road races (Although there was not much crossover in men's cycling back then) as they were held on hillier courses.


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## Apollonius (21 Apr 2018)

I have in the past had the pleasure of riding with the late Ray Holliday. Probably little know these days, but a very distinguished rider in these parts in the early fifties. (11th in the 1953 Tour of Britain). He rode with a very rapid cadence indeed - right into his eighties. And he could out-climb people half his age.


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## bpsmith (21 Apr 2018)

It’s becoming a more interesting thread, cheers @ColinJ @Smokin Joe. Mildly off topic but very relevant still.


----------



## raleighnut (21 Apr 2018)

This bike held the Edinburgh-London record for nearly 20yrs, alright Cliff held the record but you get what I mean.

It has an 'Ultra-Close' 3spd Sturmey Archer hub gear,


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## bpsmith (21 Apr 2018)

raleighnut said:


> View attachment 405372
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that is something rather special. Nothing which obviously stands out in its current form, just hidden away up there, but the story makes it priceless. I could happily listen all day to the stories attached to items like that.


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## raleighnut (21 Apr 2018)

bpsmith said:


> Now that is something rather special. Nothing which obviously stands out in its current form, just hidden away up there, but the story makes it priceless. I could happily listen all day to the stories attached to items like that.


Here is the story about that bike (at 2:02 in the vid) Cliff helped with the development of the SA 'ultraclose' ratio hub which had the equivalent of 1 tooth up/down from the cog fitted.

Best bike shop ever. 


View: https://youtu.be/I56m7KF7Erc


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## bpsmith (21 Apr 2018)

raleighnut said:


> Here is the story about that bike (at 2:02 in the vid) Cliff helped with the development of the SA 'ultraclose' ratio hub which had the equivalent of 1 tooth up/down from the cog fitted.
> 
> Best bike shop ever.
> 
> ...



Will have a gander at that a bit later. On my YouTube watchlist.


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## bpsmith (21 Apr 2018)

raleighnut said:


> Here is the story about that bike (at 2:02 in the vid) Cliff helped with the development of the SA 'ultraclose' ratio hub which had the equivalent of 1 tooth up/down from the cog fitted.
> 
> Best bike shop ever.
> 
> ...



Great video.


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## GuyBoden (22 Apr 2018)

Another great picture of my uncle, Alan Boden, riding a TT on the big ring, keeping low, with bar end shifters.


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## bigjim (22 Apr 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> I read somewhere it was Lance Armstrong who popularised high cadence riding, inasmuch as other riders saw him winning doing it - and other things, but that's not important right now.
> 
> The pic of Beryl Burton shows her riding what appears to be a very highly geared bike, particularly for a lady.
> 
> Spinning that top gear would be some effort for a fit male rider.


The article I read stated that, Armstrong was a grinder. To beat Ulrich who was also a grinder he had to be coached to spin effectively. Evidently it worked. Cue the comments about better drugs.


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## boydj (22 Apr 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> I read somewhere it was Lance Armstrong who popularised high cadence riding, inasmuch as other riders saw him winning doing it - and other things, but that's not important right now.
> 
> The pic of Beryl Burton shows her riding what appears to be a very highly geared bike, particularly for a lady.
> 
> Spinning that top gear would be some effort for a fit male rider.



Well it did take the men quite a few years to beat the 12 Hour record set by Beryl Burton.


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## Crankarm (23 Apr 2018)

I like my 1x14. No faffing changing front chain rings. Just 14 nicely spaced gears.


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## dan_bo (24 Apr 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> I read somewhere it was Lance Armstrong who popularised high cadence riding, inasmuch as other riders saw him winning doing it - and other things, but that's not important right now.
> 
> The pic of Beryl Burton shows her riding what appears to be a very highly geared bike, particularly for a lady.
> 
> Spinning that top gear would be some effort for a fit male rider.



As time goes by I'm more inclined to think that Lance was using distraction tactics to cover his drug use- high cadence- training at race pace- vertical ft/minute stats and so on...he just rode a bloody bike. On gear.


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## ColinJ (24 Apr 2018)

Crankarm said:


> I like my 1x14. No faffing changing front chain rings. Just 14 nicely spaced gears.


... but costing more than most of my bikes. I just looked up how much they cost (I assume that it is a Rohloff system?) - nearly £1,000!


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## GuyBoden (25 Apr 2018)

ColinJ said:


> (I assume that it is a Rohloff system?) - nearly £1,000!




Seems very similar to the Sturmey Archer, which was designed/patent in 1901.

Here an early one, 1902.





Used Sturmey Archer 3 speeds are on ebay for a £10.


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## Drago (25 Apr 2018)

They're quite different. People can pronounce. 'Sturmer archer'.


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## Tim Hall (25 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> They're quite different. People can pronounce. 'Sturmer archer'.


But few can spell it.


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## Drago (25 Apr 2018)

My tablet certainly can't!


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