# Bikes for the NHS scheme



## mangaman (1 May 2009)

Sorry - bit of a long post:-

Our hospital has sent this to all employees this month.

http://www.nhsbikes.co.uk/employee.html

Basically you get a brand new bike for a year and they take some of the money for it from your salary each month then after 12 months you can choose to pay the difference and buy the bike or give it up.

I'm not sure what to make of it really.
It's essentially an interest-free loan for a year and will save you money on tax.

The trust doesn't have to pay anything as it's a national scheme

But surely someone, somewhere (ie the taxpayer) must be paying.

My problem is the choice of bikes. You choose from a set range. The cheapest is £197 and quite a few are nearly £1000! The scheme is funded on the average price for a bike being £500

To me (who cycles to work anyway) there's no way I'd leave a £1000 bike at the hospital. They're always getting stolen / vandalised. The costs if this happens falls on the employee. 

Instead of trying to get people spending £1000 on a bike to commute, encourage them to buy a cheap / second hand one like I did, and leave the decent bikes at home.

Part of me thinks great - more people will cycle, but looking into it I think the NHS should encourage cycling by more (and more secure) bike storage and shower / changing facilities at work. 
My hospital has neither and isn't planning to.

Anyone had any experience of this?


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## mr_cellophane (1 May 2009)

Standard Cycle to Work scheme

http://www.cyclescheme.co.uk/


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## HLaB (1 May 2009)

I think Magnatom bought his bike through an nhs scheme, a v nice kinesis; you could try pm him.


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

That's how I got my *go faster *(TM) bike. 

It's a good scheme (although yours does seem a bit different from ours, as we can go to certain local bike shops) and means you can make good savings on a bike. I'm in the NHS as well and the downside of that is that you can't save VAT, but I still got 30% off my bike.

P.S. My (just under £1000) bike is kept in my office!


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

HLaB said:


> I think Magnatom bought his bike through an nhs scheme, a v nice kinesis; you could try pm him.




Ah, you just beat me to it!

Actually our scheme was with the company Mr Cellophane linked to. Which company your health board uses is up to them.


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## Woz! (1 May 2009)

Sounds like the standard Cycle To Work scheme that all companies can take advantage of.
Yes, the taxpayer is losing revenue on it but it's trivial compared to our expenditure on the banking sector!


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## Downward (1 May 2009)

Sounds like another company making profit from the scheme and the bikes too.

Most NHS run Cycleshceme so you can choose anything from any participating bike shops.

Disposal fee is high too.
It's 5% through Cyclescheme + Vat.

I take it the company offering the bikes offer the same service as your LBS ?


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## eldudino (1 May 2009)

Has anyone ever had to actually buy the bike at the end of the year? I run cyclescheme in my office I know that payment for it will never be asked for.


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## mangaman (1 May 2009)

I'm sure it's a great deal - but does anyone really need a Specialised FSR XC MTB retailing at £975 in 2008 prices to commute to work?

By the way the hospital's in a completely flat area of the country - not halfway up Snowdon or somewhere 

I think the statement that the average commuter bike is £500 is also just going to put people off

Sounds like a good scheme in principle that the NHS as usual manages to arse up.

Incidentally there are 20 Sheffield stands in total for bike storage in the hospital and just over 2400 people work on the site, so I hope the pick-up rate isn't too high!


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## Ivan Ardon (1 May 2009)

Our scheme is through the same people. They were very easy to deal with once it got past our HR dept.

They published an approved list of bikes, but it was simple enough to get a different bike from them (I did). The bikes I know about were all shipped from Tredz, which is different this year as they'll deal with LBS' now.

I'd venture that a large proportion of the bikes bought through the scheme will never be used for commuting. Almost all of the regular cycists at work have bought a 'nice' bike through the scheme, not many of them are actually better commuting bikes than what they were already riding. I've seen two new bikes belonging to the non-regular cyclists in the racks over the last six months, but each has been used less than a handful of times.

Most here seem to treat it as a perk, rather than as a serious way of commuting hence the inclusion of some eye candy.

I think you're winding yourself up over nothing.


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

True. You don't need a £1000 bike to commute, but you can use one to commute. 

I have two bikes at the moment, my first is my bad weather bike, and was £275 when I bought it back in 2005 (spent plenty on it since!). My new bike was £900. I use this to commute on good weather days. I also use it to go on longer rides as well. So it is dual purpose, and this is certainly allowed on the scheme.

I think the average price for a commuter reflects the fact that people want a bike for more than just commuting, and some people just like to buy bling!


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## mangaman (1 May 2009)

Ivan Ardon said:


> They published an approved list of bikes, but it was simple enough to get a different bike from them (I did). The bikes I know about were all shipped from Tredz, which is different this year as they'll deal with LBS' now.



That sounds good - in fact I'm getting tempted now 



Ivan Ardon said:


> Most here seem to treat it as a perk, rather than as a serious way of commuting hence the inclusion of some eye candy.
> 
> I think you're winding yourself up over nothing..



You're probably right


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## bonj2 (1 May 2009)

mangaman said:


> To me (who cycles to work anyway) there's no way I'd leave a £1000 bike at the hospital. They're always getting stolen / vandalised. The costs if this happens falls on the employee.
> 
> Instead of trying to get people *spending £1000 on a bike *to commute, encourage them to buy a cheap / second hand one like I did, *and leave the decent bikes at home.*


There's nothing to say you can't do exactly that.

Get a £1,000 bike on the scheme, leave it at home for weekend riding, and get a cheap/second hand one to ride to work on.

There's no rule that states that you you must ride to work on the actual bike that you get through the scheme. Even if there was, it would be completely unpoliceable.


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

bonj said:


> There's nothing to say you can't do exactly that.
> 
> Get a £1,000 bike on the scheme, leave it at home for weekend riding, and get a cheap/second hand one to ride to work on.
> 
> There's no rule that states that you you must ride to work on the actual bike that you get through the scheme. Even if there was, it would be completely unpoliceable.




Actually, you are supposed to use the bike for commuting 50% of the time according to cyclescheme. However, as you say, it isn't something that can be policed!


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## JamesM (1 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> Actually, you are supposed to use the bike for commuting 50% of the time according to cyclescheme. However, as you say, it isn't something that can be policed!


I'm sure I saw someone with a clipboard watching me with interest the other day. I was cycling to work though so it's OK.

I've actually used mine almost exclusively for commuting so far. With the little 'un at home, I haven't really found time for any other cycling just yet.

I do plan on playing on some of the local hills soon - my commute is all flat. I have worked up 200 miles credit in the last month or so, so I don't fancy my chances of getting the wrong side of the ratio this weekend...


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## skwerl (1 May 2009)

eldudino said:


> Has anyone ever had to actually buy the bike at the end of the year? I run cyclescheme in my office I know that payment for it will never be asked for.



nope. I'm onto my decond bike and have not been asked for money for the last one. I even phoned HR and asked them. I was told I'd receive a letter, which I haven't, so I'm assuming I'll never have to cough up anything. The company depreciates the asset anyway so there's no loss to them and no tax liability, plus they get the VAT on £1000.


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## skwerl (1 May 2009)

mangaman said:


> http://www.nhsbikes.co.uk/employee.html



The irony here is that a Government entity is grossly breaking the terms set out by the tax man. At no point are the employer allowed to state that the bicycle may be sold to the employee at the end of the agreement. Doing so makes it hire-purchase and subject to tax. Not that the tax man is likely to do anything.


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## Downward (1 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> Actually, you are supposed to use the bike for commuting 50% of the time according to cyclescheme. However, as you say, it isn't something that can be policed!




Indeed although here it's amazing how many £1k + bikes have been bought on the scheme yet you never see the people riding these bikes or any of these super bikes in the bikesheds/bike park !!

There is no way they can check either unless they inspect your bike and then what are they going to do ? come round your house?!

At the end of the day the cyclist makes money, the NHS Trust makes a profit, Cyclesheme take their 10% + Admin fee and your LBS make money from sale/future business so it's a win,win,win,win situation.

I keep my bike in the office and due to stock outs it isn't the same one as what is listed on the Cyclesheme purchase.

No-one is going to come and look either. I could be not even riding a bike to work and just using it for day trips.


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## mangaman (1 May 2009)

bonj said:


> There's nothing to say you can't do exactly that.
> 
> Get a £1,000 bike on the scheme, leave it at home for weekend riding, and get a cheap/second hand one to ride to work on.
> 
> There's no rule that states that you you must ride to work on the actual bike that you get through the scheme. Even if there was, it would be completely unpoliceable.



You're right Bonj - it just seems a bit of a scam somehow


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## Downward (1 May 2009)

mangaman said:


> You're right Bonj - it just seems a bit of a scam somehow



The cyclist makes money, the NHS Trust makes a profit, Cyclesheme take their 10% + Admin fee and your LBS make money from sale/future business so it's a win,win,win,win situation.

Only Loser is the Taxman !


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

Downward said:


> Only Loser is the Taxman !



Ah, but if you are a car driver you could suggest that this is these _bl&&dy cyclists avoiding paying more bl&&dy tax! _


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## Greenbank (1 May 2009)

eldudino said:


> Has anyone ever had to actually buy the bike at the end of the year?



Yes. The people who bought bikes last year at our company through Cyclescheme have received a letter asking for the money. 5%+VAT.

I guess most employers can't be bothered, or simply choose not to.


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## Greenbank (1 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> Ah, but if you are a car driver you could suggest that this is these _bl&&dy cyclists avoiding paying more bl&&dy tax! _



Counter: £2000 credit for scrapping an old car? Who pays for that then?


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## HJ (1 May 2009)

mangaman said:


> Incidentally there are 20 Sheffield stands in total for bike storage in the hospital and just over 2400 people work on the site, so I hope the pick-up rate isn't too high!



But isn't this NHS staff we are talking about, most of them probably see a bike shed as a place to go for a crafty fag....


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## skrx (1 May 2009)

skwerl said:


> The irony here is that a Government entity is grossly breaking the terms set out by the tax man. At no point are the employer allowed to state that the bicycle may be sold to the employee at the end of the agreement. Doing so makes it hire-purchase and subject to tax. Not that the tax man is likely to do anything.



NHSbikes.co.uk don't seem to have anything to do with the NHS.

The website domain (nhsbikes.co.uk) is registered to 
Urban Media
Paje House 
164 West Wycombe Road
High Wycombe
Bucks
HP12 3AE
GB


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## eldudino (1 May 2009)

Greenbank said:


> I guess most employers can't be bothered, or simply choose not to.



I think that's the case. As I said, I'm the cyclescheme representative (and only user!) but the office I work in is small and wouldn't pursue a small amount of money like that, even if they knew they could do it!


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## HJ (1 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> True. You don't need a £1000 bike to commute, but you can use one to commute.
> 
> I have two bikes at the moment, my first is my bad weather bike, and was £275 when I bought it back in 2005 (spent plenty on it since!). My new bike was £900. *I use this to commute on good weather days*. I also use it to go on longer rides as well. So it is dual purpose, and this is certainly allowed on the scheme.
> 
> I think the average price for a commuter reflects the fact that people want a bike for more than just commuting, and some people just like to buy bling!



 you only commute on it once a year! 

Bet you did use it to commute today


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

Hairy Jock said:


> you only commute on it once a year!
> 
> Bet you did use it to commute today




Actually, I think I've commuted on it more than my hybrid over the last couple of months. It has been surprisingly dry! I'm on it today as well, I took a bit of a gamble looking at the weather forecast, but it looks ok at the moment....


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## Greenbank (1 May 2009)

This is the bike I just got on the cycle to work scheme:-

http://www.greenbank.org/bikes/wilier.jpg

And, in the first year, it will probably have 50% of its use for work journeys. I may just choose to take a rather elongated route to work (Putney to Southbank via Ewhurst and the Surrey Hills, or Southbank to Putney via 3 laps of Richmond Park).


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

skrx said:


> NHSbikes.co.uk don't seem to have anything to do with the NHS.
> 
> The website domain (nhsbikes.co.uk) is registered to
> Urban Media
> ...




That's fine. The company that is running the scheme will be outside the NHS. Our health board went to tender to decide why company to use.


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## Downward (1 May 2009)

skrx said:


> NHSbikes.co.uk don't seem to have anything to do with the NHS.
> 
> The website domain (nhsbikes.co.uk) is registered to
> Urban Media
> ...



Like i said it's just another company out to make a profit. Cyclesheme are the same but let LBS's carry the risk of supplying the bikes.


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## Downward (1 May 2009)

Greenbank said:


> This is the bike I just got on the cycle to work scheme:-
> 
> http://www.greenbank.org/bikes/wilier.jpg
> 
> And, in the first year, it will probably have 50% of its use for work journeys. I may just choose to take a rather elongated route to work (Putney to Southbank via Ewhurst and the Surrey Hills, or Southbank to Putney via 3 laps of Richmond Park).




Liking that - How much ??

If I was to buy a Road Bike it would only come out in the dry. No-one at work would know the difference between bike makes/models anyway.


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## Greenbank (1 May 2009)

Downward said:


> Liking that - How much ??
> 
> If I was to buy a Road Bike it would only come out in the dry. No-one at work would know the difference between bike makes/models anyway.



£2250


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

Greenbank said:


> £2250




Ah, but you can only afford that because the oven is an ASDA £50 special.

P.S. The oven gloves need a wash....


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## Downward (1 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> Ah, but you can only afford that because the oven is an ASDA £50 special.
> 
> P.S. The oven gloves need a wash....




Haha
Sorry wife we won't be replacing the kitchen this year.


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## mangaman (1 May 2009)

Lovely bike Greenbank

I just still have a lingering feeling that as far as the public sector goes we should be encouraging more cycle commuting rather than selling bling to you and me who already are converts 

Only a handful of my 2400 workmates cycle in, which is a travesty given the fact it's a small, flat city. I've never had any grief from motorists and I think the scheme could be better. (As i said, my main gripe is bike storage and comfort - ie having an area to shower and change). I even bought my commuting bike 2nd hand from the hospital mag. which has a for sale section (cost £20 including lights)

There's even a vacant changing/shower area for men and women completely empty in our hospital as it built new operating theatres in the 1990s. Me and a few cyclists tried a few years ago to get this done up as an ideal area for for getting ready for work after a commute.

The area remains usable - still linked to the water mains etc - just needs some work with a mop and bucket and a lick of paint

We even volunteered to do it ourselves one weekend for free but were poo-pooed by the management for H and S reasons.

I guess that's why I sound a bit cynical about this scheme

(The cheeky part of my brain still thinks I should get a decent bike out of this at a cheap price though - trouble is I've probably got enough bikes already)


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

That's pretty poor! I use theatre showers. Name and shame the hospital, I say. Contact your local papers (anonymously of course) highlighting the hypocrisy of a hospital not encouraging healthy, environmentally friendly transport.


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## mangaman (1 May 2009)

I aggree Magna - the problem they sited was the showers hadn't been used since 1996 and needed various checks etc.

I fear an anonymous tip off from me would be traced quite easily in a small town with a small town newspaper

(My excuse for being a wuss obviously) 

Unbelievably until we had our spat with the hospital management (this was a few years ago when they introduced a £40 a month charge to park in the hospital - which I was all for, and we formed an alternative means of transport to work group) there wasn't even a bus that stopped at the hospital

At least we have a bus route now.

The reason I started this thread was because people know I who don't cycle, but know i do have been asking me about it and I was interested in other's experiences.

I'm still tempted to advise them to get a cheapo 2nd hand bike and not worry - it's not like Glasgow or London here- there's virtually no rush hour traffic (I've never had a run in with a motorist) and no hills.

The South Downs are not far, which have some cool trails, and if they want to try those they could use the scheme to get a decent MTB (although I'm still not sure I should be advising people to be "economical with the truth")


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## mangaman (1 May 2009)

I'll PM you the name of the hospital Magnatom as long as you keep it a secret 

I'm sure I can trust you since I remember you diagnosing my avatar as an MRI of my torn infrapatellar cartiledge which was pretty impressive at that resolution !


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## magnatom (1 May 2009)

mangaman said:


> I'll PM you the name of the hospital Magnatom as long as you keep it a secret
> 
> I'm sure I can trust you since I remember you diagnosing my avatar as an MRI of my torn infrapatellar cartiledge which was pretty impressive at that resolution !




 Aye, I'm an MRI physicist with a dodgy knee myself, so I know a thing or two about knee MRI scans!

My misses has just told me to say, that she is dragging me to bed  (I wish!) but I'll reply to your PM tomorrow. I know where you are coming from.

As for trusting me... I have Max Cliffords phone number....


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## mangaman (2 May 2009)

Well if your missus is dragging you to bed I would put all thoughts of cycle to work schemes to one side for a while!


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## magnatom (2 May 2009)

mangaman said:


> Well if your missus is dragging you to bed I would put all thoughts of cycle to work schemes to one side for a while!




Ha, just tired more like.


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## Downward (17 May 2010)

Bump !
This company have cropped up and attached a brouchure of bikes via mail order.
They also have a lot of LBS on the scheme but it's not clear if you can only have a bike in the brochure or go to your LBS and choose anything.

Disposal fee is expensive but it seems that they are passing on charge to employee rather than LBS so maybe you can negotiate more with LBS. I will find out from the LBS soon.


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