# What is wrong with people?



## Drago (13 Aug 2020)

Now I'm a pedelecist myself I've been browsing a few forums. However, all people seem to want to talk about is what pedelec to buy (of little interest to me now I have one), or how to derestrict them. If that wasn't bad enough, the site owners seem happy to allow these discussions to take place despite most of them being quite open and honest about wanting to use them on the roads.

What is wrong with people? Why cant the be sensible and buy the correct vehicle in then first place, and get the correct documents to go with them?

I sign up to very few forums - here, and Army Rumour Service are the only ones - and this sort of daftness has put me off of signing up for any pedelec forums.


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## Nitram55 (13 Aug 2020)

One of the first questions people often as about my E-Bike is why don't you hack it to make it faster, The answer that its illegal and it would vastly reduce the range seems to leave them bemused.


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## Drago (13 Aug 2020)

I wonder...in a year or two all new cars will come with intelligent speed limiters (albeit for the first few years with a ridiculous override function). Will car forums suddenly be full of people asking how to derestrict their cars?


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## raleighnut (13 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> I wonder...in a year or two all new cars will come with intelligent speed limiters (albeit for the first few years with a ridiculous override function). Will car forums suddenly be full of people asking how to derestrict their cars?


Probably 
A lot did it with Mopeds when the 35 'sloped limit came out and 125s when the 12hp limit was introduced, one bike magazine ran an article 125 from a 125 (RD 125 LC) They didn't quite make it but concluded a 160cc 'big bore' kit would do it easy.


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## gavroche (13 Aug 2020)

@Drago . I am blaming you for looking at shops with ebikes now although, being only 69 ( not for much longer) , I am still faaaaaar too young to even consider buying one.


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## HMS_Dave (13 Aug 2020)

You've not owned a Saab and been on the Saab forums then @Drago? 

Years ago, I owned a 9000 turbo, similar to the one that ended Cozy Powell, and it's full of mods, ECU hacks and even people sharing remaps to get crazy speeds out of these things...

Not for me, a useful resource to find out common issues but full of people performing the dark arts of motoring....

Im assuming it's a similar story on these pedelec websites...


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## Profpointy (13 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> You've not owned a Saab and been on the Saab forums then @Drago?
> 
> Years ago, I owned a 9000 turbo, similar to the one that ended Cozy Powell, and it's full of mods, ECU hacks and even people sharing remaps to get crazy speeds out of these things...
> 
> ...



That's rather different as it isn't turning the vehicle into something out and out illegal, or at least requiring a proper licence


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## HMS_Dave (13 Aug 2020)

Profpointy said:


> That's rather different as it isn't turning the vehicle into something out and out illegal, or at least requiring a proper licence


Which member were you on the Saab forums?


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## marzjennings (13 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> I wonder...in a year or two all new cars will come with intelligent speed limiters (albeit for the first few years with a ridiculous override function). Will car forums suddenly be full of people asking how to derestrict their cars?



Yes, because hacking vehicles to make them faster, regardless of legality, will always be a thing. Heck, half the cars my friends drove in Cornwall when we were kids were completely illegal hack jobs that all 'passed' their MOT 'cos we all went to the same guy. So I'm not surprised at all that folks are looking for ways to derestrict ebikes, I know I would. I've already had to tell my mum who's knocking on 80 not to ride the dodgy ebike's her friend is building.


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## Profpointy (13 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> Which member were you on the Saab forums?



I'm not on it though I do have a Saab


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## Drago (13 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> You've not owned a Saab and been on the Saab forums then @Drago?
> 
> Years ago, I owned a 9000 turbo, similar to the one that ended Cozy Powell, and it's full of mods, ECU hacks and even people sharing remaps to get crazy speeds out of these things...
> 
> ...


to be fair to SAAB, it must be pointed put that Cozy Powell was driving at a ton plus, was over the drink drive limit, and on the phone to the married woman he'd been having an affair with


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## Ananda (14 Aug 2020)

Maybe because:
A. The 25km/hr speed limit is silly, since you easily go much faster than that on a normal bike (I routinely hit 60 in the area I usually cycle without even trying too hard....it is called gravity)
B. In most EU countries you cannot register a non speed limited ebike anyway, so if even if you wish to be legal, you cant.


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## ebikeerwidnes (14 Aug 2020)

I know that you know this - but the 25 kph limit is only for the motor - so if you can go faster by pedallin then that is OK - just saying for people from other countries or new people to pedelecs

Personally - I like the fact that (EU/UK) law says that my ebike is treated exactly the same as a normal bike - can use cycle lanes. pavement where shared, Police will not pull me up for cycling on the pavement for safety etc etc
If someone put forward a speed cutoff increase then I can see some or all of these getting whittled away and replaced with a higher speed limit - but some other bits that such as compulsory registration or something.

It is also notable that when a petition was put to Parliament in the UK then it received very little support in spite of being publicised a lot of ebike forums and thread
I have also received far more support for the 'leave things as they are in case .....' arguments than I would have expected.

Generally I tend to ride just below the cut off speed but go over on nice flat sections or when the wind is behind me


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## Drago (14 Aug 2020)

Ananda said:


> Maybe because:
> A. The 25km/hr speed limit is silly, since you easily go much faster than that on a normal bike (I routinely hit 60 in the area I usually cycle without even trying too hard....it is called gravity)
> B. In most EU countries you cannot register a non speed limited ebike anyway, so if even if you wish to be legal, you cant.


A. Why exactly is it silly? Simply labelling the phenomenon as "silly" offers nothing by way of explanation. If you can pedal faster, great, all power to you. If you cant, then what's wrong with 15.5mph? If you do have some major issue with 15.5 mph then get a speed pedelec...

B. You may not have realised that we in the UK are not in the EU. "Speed pedelecs", as the pedelec capable of well in excess of 15.5mph max assistance are called, can indeed be legally registered and used in the UK - you may want to do your homework before making such statements. There are companies that sell them either already documented, or as the bike on it's own for the purchaser to do the donkey work with the DVLA themselves and save a few quid. Here you go...

https://urbanebikes.com/collections...bUoD7icFOCMjV-BGBDuL4yNL-MULmTswaApQVEALw_wcB

In addition, ebikes and S-Pedelecs are legal in the EU, provided they have all the appropriate documentation and the rider meets the licence requirements.

This being the case, with speed pedelecs being both legal and available all across geographical Europe, why do muppets want to illegally pep up their bikes and ride about uninsured and, quite often, unlicenced?


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## welsh dragon (14 Aug 2020)

Ananda said:


> Maybe because:
> A. The 25km/hr speed limit is silly, since you easily go much faster than that on a normal bike (I routinely hit 60 in the area I usually cycle without even trying too hard....it is called gravity)
> B. In most EU countries you cannot register a non speed limited ebike anyway, so if even if you wish to be legal, you cant.




You can go faster than 25km, that's just the speed at which the motor cuts out. After that the faster you go it's all down to you . On mine going downhill I can hit 34mph and i have 20 inch wheels.

So many people seem to think that 25km is the fastest it will do.


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## Drago (14 Aug 2020)

Absolutely! Jowry can do 185mph on his ebike!


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## Jody (14 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> .........but full of people performing the dark arts of motoring....



A £6 cable coupled to a laptop and my Skoda gained 40BHP


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## jowwy (14 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Absolutely! Jowry can do 185mph on his ebike!


for a start its Jowwy and secondly i stated i have done 50mph downhill..........on my ebike


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## sheddy (14 Aug 2020)

Similar experience. I lasted sub 12 hours on an ebike forum.


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## Drago (14 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> for a start its Jowwy and secondly i stated i have done 50mph downhill..........on my ebike


Any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.


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## Ananda (14 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> A. Why exactly is it silly? Simply labelling the phenomenon as "silly" offers nothing by way of explanation.



Since you are a man of logic and like explanations, what is the explanation you were given (and found satisfying) for the 25km/hr motor assist limit?


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## Drago (14 Aug 2020)

Perhaps you could answer my question first, as you are the one expressing dissatisfaction?

Once you have done so, I would be happy to explain my rationale as to why people should obey the law and not turn pedelecs into mopeds.


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## Ananda (14 Aug 2020)

I am not disatisfied by the 25km/hr of motor assist limit. I could not care less personally. But most people who eliminate their limiters clearly do find it unsatisfactory.

Also, I did not ask you why should people obey the law. I know that. I asked you what explanation you were given by EU for choosing the 25km/hr value as the motor asssit speed limit.

Finally, not obeying the law is not 'immoral'. It is 'illegal'.


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## Drago (14 Aug 2020)

I'm glad you don't find the limit unsatisfactory. You will forgive me, I took it wrongly from the tone of your original post that you did. 

I've not been given any explanation for the ebike specs that the EU, and the UK, settled upon, and I haven't asked them. I have no curiosity about the matter.

Yes, it is illegal (or unlawful, depending on the situation and intent). I never suggested otherwise. It may also be fattening and cause blindness. Morals are a discussion for elsewhere.


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## Ananda (14 Aug 2020)

That is why I said in my original post the limit is 'silly'. Because it came out of nowhere, based on nothing, probably designed by bureaucrats who have never ridden a bicycle.


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## welsh dragon (14 Aug 2020)

Moving on, I am member of pedelecs forum although like you now @Drago I don't tend to go on it as I now have a bike. I found that some of the Info was good, some wasn't. Some of the suppliers of ebikes were members and others could ask questions relating to their specific bike.

Some Members just liked the sound of their own voices, some liked to think they knew everything, some Just liked to complain about everything, and there seemed to be a huge number of adverts from ebike names trying to sell their product. I saw it as one big selling platform so stopped visiting. 

I did however have great help from the supplier that I bought my bike from. The managing director helped me out by contacting one of the bike chains as the particular bike I wanted wasn't available anywhere, but he found one for me and arranged for them to contact me. Great service I would say.


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## fossyant (14 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Now I'm a pedelecist myself



What ?


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## fossyant (14 Aug 2020)

Two lads on our caravan site have the electric MX bikes - bit like the one Mr Cowell fell off. Even electric scooters are banned on site due to near misses. I'm going to pop in the office to complain. This one sounds as rough as hell, totally rattly drive chain, and the discs howl and rattle - not confidence inspiring for something that can do silly speeds.


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## Drago (14 Aug 2020)

I don't find it silly. For my age I'm above average fitness and a very experienced rider, and on a conventional bike I'm averaging only 17 or 18mph, sometimes less. I can do more, even into the 20s, but I have to work at it.

So, being electrically assisted up to close to the average speed of a very fit and highly experienced cyclist on a lightweight bike, while you're benefitting from enhanced hill climbing ability, relative sit-up-and-beg comfort, only sweating half as much, is a bad thing because...?


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## gbb (14 Aug 2020)

Ananda said:


> That is why I said in my original post the limit is 'silly'. Because it came out of nowhere, based on nothing, probably designed by bureaucrats who have never ridden a bicycle.


One of my favourite replies in lots of circumstances with lots of people (my wife especially) when they state theres no logic in a particular statement, rule, whatever....is just because you cant see, or dont know the specific reason something is so, doesnt mean there is no logic...you just dont know what drove that decision. I'd imagine there is a rationale behind the 25kph, I'd dont know either but it seems if nothing else, a sensible speed people can relate to based on most people's ability to ride unassisted at around that speed.


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## welsh dragon (14 Aug 2020)

Exactly. It's a bycicle not a motorbike. 25km per hours seems to be a decent Amount of assistance. If you want something that goes 30, 40, 50 km per hour then buy a motorbike or scooter. Going too fast on a bike could be a danger, to the bike user and other road users .


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Aug 2020)

Ananda said:


> Maybe because:
> A. The 25km/hr speed limit is silly, since you easily go much faster than that on a normal bike (I routinely hit 60 in the area I usually cycle without even trying too hard....it is called gravity)



You may be surprised to learn that gravity also works on ebikes and because they are heavier they go faster downhill than an equivalent bike. An ebike won’t suddenly apply the brakes if you exceed 25 km/h downhill.


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## jowwy (14 Aug 2020)

welsh dragon said:


> Exactly. It's a bycicle not a motorbike. 25km per hours seems to be a decent Amount of assistance. If you want something that goes 30, 40, 50 km per hour then buy a motorbike or scooter.* Going too fast on a bike could be a danger, to the bike user and other road users .*


Isn’t that the same for all bikes??? Or just E Bikes????


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## Dwn (14 Aug 2020)

I shudder to think of the damage to cycling's already unhappy reputation if loads of derestricted ebikes came on the market without some form of testing and licencing regime. It wouldn't be older cyclists or people with mobility issue that would be the problem. It would be the same young guys I see battering along the pavement with their cheap mountain bikes. Bad enough when they are doing under 20; carnage if they could do 30 or more without any real penalty in extra effort.


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## Ananda (14 Aug 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> You may be surprised to learn that gravity also works on ebikes and because they are heavier they go faster downhill than an equivalent bike. An ebike won’t suddenly apply the brakes if you exceed 25 km/h downhill.



No!


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## gbb (14 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> Isn’t that the same for all bikes??? Or just E Bikes????


I think the logic is we all know a bike can travel well beyond 25kph, often in specific circumstances, well recognised by all. Downhill, for instance everyone knows and reasonably expects any bike to be travelling significantly faster....and people subconsciously make adjustments in the reactions accordingly, based on lifetime experience. It's a good rule of thumb most people will work to when viewing a (what looks like a standard) bike on the flat, it's going to be travelling at a speed we reasonably expect it to be travelling at, based on that lifetime experience. It's not a cover all situation but one most people will cope with easily. Start changing the very basics of that and perhaps you end up in trouble.
This is just theory of course and I may be wrong, but it seems quite sensible to me. As stated up post, if you want something faster, perhaps its be more appropriate to buy so ething more appropriate, a scooter, motorbike or similar ?

My own opinion on the 25kph / 15.5 mph limit ? I'm fine with it, if you up the speed limit, you simply reduce the distance achievable by the battery...and let's face it, you dont get great mileage anyway, especially as a battery ages a bit.l


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## HMS_Dave (14 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> Isn’t that the same for all bikes??? Or just E Bikes????


No. Because like it of loath it, Mopeds and Motorcycles require Insurance, MOT's, Tax, Specific licencing, theory tests and PPE... Sure you can go fast down a hill on a push bike but how often is that and that is under the power of gravity and not a motor or engine. Average speeds of a cyclist despite that is still lower...

Which can of worms did you want to open?


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## jowwy (14 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> No. Because like it of loath it, Mopeds and Motorcycles require Insurance, MOT's, Tax, Specific licencing, theory tests and PPE... Sure you can go fast down a hill on a push bike but how often is that and that is under the power of gravity and not a motor or engine. Average speeds of a cyclist despite that is still lower...
> 
> Which can of worms did you want to open?


The quote was.....

*going to fast on a bike is a danger, to the rider and other road users.....*

all I asked was, isn’t that the same for all bikes, not just E bikes.......no can of worms, just asking why is it e bike specific


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## jowwy (14 Aug 2020)

Here’s the scenario.......

I am out riding my E bike with my mate, we are bowling along at 20mph......I have an assisted speed of 20mph ( pedelec ) my mate is riding unassisted at the same 20mph, why is one being classed by the poster above more dangerous than the other???


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## HMS_Dave (15 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> Here’s the scenario.......
> 
> I am out riding my E bike with my mate, we are bowling along at 20mph......I have an assisted speed of 20mph ( pedelec ) my mate is riding unassisted at the same 20mph, why is one being classed by the poster above more dangerous than the other???


On an empty road, you're both no danger other than to yourselves.

On a shared cycle path, you're both a bloody dangerous menace!


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## ColinJ (15 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> Here’s the scenario.......
> 
> I am out riding my E bike with my mate, we are bowling along at 20mph......I have an assisted speed of 20mph ( pedelec ) my mate is riding unassisted at the same 20mph, why is one being classed by the poster above more dangerous than the other???


Or maybe _this_ is the scenario......

You are riding your unassisted road bike at 20 mph which is taking a great deal of effort and you are fully focused on the task, whereas your mate is bowling along effortlessly on his ebike, phone in one hand (having an intense conversation with that hot babe that he met at the pub last night) and holding a spliff in the other, almost unaware of what is going on around him!


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

ColinJ said:


> Or maybe _this_ is the scenario......
> 
> You are riding your unassisted road bike at 20 mph which is taking a great deal of effort and you are fully focused on the task, whereas your mate is bowling along effortlessly on his ebike, phone in one hand (having an intense conversation with that hot babe that he met at the pub last night) and holding a spliff in the other, almost unaware of what is going on around him!


That scenario wouldnt happen....

1. Hes married
2. He doesnt smoke
3. Hes an ex semi pro bike racer.....


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## welsh dragon (15 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> The quote was.....
> 
> *going to fast on a bike is a danger, to the rider and other road users.....*
> 
> all I asked was, isn’t that the same for all bikes, not just E bikes.......no can of worms, just asking why is it e bike specific




If you are going to quote me then do so. Read my post again as i said COULD be not is. DOH.


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## G3CWI (15 Aug 2020)

I recently lost an ebike KOM on Strava. After looking at it I realised that I could easily get it back by cheating and using my non-ebike road bike. It’s a funny old world.


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

welsh dragon said:


> If you are going to quote me then do so. Read my post again as i said COULD be not is. DOH.


I'll ask again.....

Why could it be a danger on an ebike.......whats the difference with riding the same speed on a normal bike???

Or do you agree that it could be a danger on both and therefore the ebike is no different, its just you get some assist in attaining said speed???

And heres the truth in the matter, there is no difference its just cause people dont like the thought of ebikers getting a bit of assist to attain the same speed as a regular rider who is sweating his/hers neenaa's off trying to reach and its just not fair.........boohooo


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## dodgy (15 Aug 2020)

More like you want to go faster than your body will currently afford, so you want more power without the bother of insurance, registration and PPE. Boo hoo.


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## welsh dragon (15 Aug 2020)

I think it's time to walk away and ignore the numpty.


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## Drago (15 Aug 2020)




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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

welsh dragon said:


> I think it's time to walk away and ignore the numpty.


Yet more abuse from someone who doesnt have the ability to have an honest debate


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

dodgy said:


> More like you want to go faster than your body will currently afford, so you want more power without the bother of insurance, registration and PPE. Boo hoo.


I can already go way past 20mph on my legal ebike.....so you quote is untrue, but nice try


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> View attachment 541763


Says the guy who started the argument, by moaning about people on other forums boosting their Ebikes.....oh the irony


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## Drago (15 Aug 2020)

Chill dude. Theres nothing wrong with frowning upon lawbreakers.


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## Dwn (15 Aug 2020)

I'm sure that some cyclists don't like the notion of an unrestricted e-bike being faster than them with less effort. And it's weird to be struggling up a hill, while seeing someone on an e-bike effortlessly (comparatively) going past you. 

But that isn't my gripe, not I suspect is it that of many others. While this forum may be full of people who can routinely exceed 25kph average speeds, that just isn't true of the general cycling population. I am very happy to get to that average speed on a longer run and while some people blast past me, mostly (in urban areas) I pass the many leisure and occasional cyclists who make up the majority round here.

Bikes are tolerated in part because they are generally relatively slow, and don't do much damage. A landscape suddenly cluttered with things that look like bikes but travel far faster is a recipe for disaster. The voices calling for mandatory testing and registration would be amplified every time one of these wiped out some child or older person. Change the perception of bikes to speed machine and all of us will suffer. And don't kid yourself that these ebikes will only be acquired by the responsible.

Sure you can go along at breakneck speed in your regular bike, but most can't. Change that to 'most can' and accident rates will soar. Cycling is currently a largely unregulated pleasure - derestricted ebikes will eventually kill that.


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Chill dude. Theres nothing wrong with frowning upon lawbreakers.


Then don’t moan and put up stupid memes, when your thread turns into an argument


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## dodgy (15 Aug 2020)

You should take up cycling, get rid of some of that pent up anger.


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## Drago (15 Aug 2020)

jowwy said:


> Then don’t moan and put up stupid memes, when your thread turns into an argument


Don't turn my threads into arguments then sonny.


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> Don't turn my threads into arguments then sonny.


Takes two to argue sonny.............you know what your doing drago when you put your posts up, about 95% of them incite argument and then you just walk away and them add the odd pathetic meme at opportune times to ensure the argument keeps going. Then some one else jumps in as it simmers down and it all starts again


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

dodgy said:


> You should take up cycling, get rid of some of that pent up anger.


Here we go again....more indirect abuse and look at them all lining up to like your post


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## dodgy (15 Aug 2020)

You could choose to laugh it off, you might find it easier to bond with people that way. As long as there's no *actual* abuse, nobody should need to laugh that off, of course.


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## jowwy (15 Aug 2020)

dodgy said:


> You could choose to laugh it off, you might find it easier to bond with people that way. As long as there's no *actual* abuse, nobody should need to laugh that off, of course.


Or you could just not post it in the first place.....ever thought of that.

I have no issues with bonding with people in real life or on other forums I am a member of, but for some reason there’s a stream of member on here, that think only their opinion counts and everyone else gotta suck it up buttercup.....

like pale rider posted earlier, it takes two to tango, but only one when gets the abuse when tangoing, cause the other might be a nice old chap, who gives us the odd laugh now and again.


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## Badger_Boom (15 Aug 2020)

Drago said:


> I sign up to very few forums - here, and Army Rumour Service are the only ones - and this sort of daftness has put me off of signing up for any pedelec forums.


Im guessing we’ve both contributed to the ebike discussion in the other place then.


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## HMS_Dave (15 Aug 2020)

There are some "highly charged" contributors to this thread. 

Im sorry that was rubbish, i'll get my coat....


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## welsh dragon (15 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> There are some "highly charged" contributors to this thread.
> 
> Im sorry that was rubbish, i'll get my coat....




Your right. That was rubbish.


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