# The effects of fatigue versus running out of energy..



## wafter (14 Aug 2020)

Over the past couple of months I've struggled to do the mileage on the bike I have previously; finding I get knackered earlier and shorter rides take it out of me more once I've got back. 

I've been riding less and more rides have been pre-breakfast for various reasons, so I'm wondering if riding fasted (for maybe 10-12hrs) is contributing to this. I've done long (for me, 50 plus miles) fasted rides before without issue, but this was against a more low carb / "fat adapted" which isn't currently the case. 

At the moment I'm getting muscle aches during the ride and I'm not sure this is an effect of being insufficiently fuelled. I'm also wondering if I could have got a dose of the 'rona to cause this fatigue; although I've not had any other obvious symptoms. 

Any suggestions much appreciated!


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## raleighnut (15 Aug 2020)

wafter said:


> Over the past couple of months I've struggled to do the mileage on the bike I have previously; finding I get knackered earlier and shorter rides take it out of me more once I've got back.
> 
> I've been riding less and more rides have been pre-breakfast for various reasons, so I'm wondering if riding fasted (for maybe 10-12hrs) is contributing to this. I've done long (for me, 50 plus miles) fasted rides before without issue, but this was against a more low carb / "fat adapted" which isn't currently the case.
> 
> ...


Welcome to getting 'Old'


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## PaulSB (15 Aug 2020)

I'm not sure I can help other than make an observation on fasted rides. This is something quite beyond my comprehension. I'm sure people will be along to explain the ins and outs, plusses and minuses of fasted rides. To my simple mind it's this; you can't drive a car without putting fuel in the tank.

Based on your post two things have changed, riding less often and more fasted rides. This suggests something else has changed in your life and perhaps it is this other change which is impacting your cycling.

I believe we are all different and need to adapt our diet accordingly. It may be your body is happy to accept the occassional fasted ride but protests at this being a regular thing.


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## vickster (15 Aug 2020)

Dehydration?

Or just eat something before you cycle and see if that helps?

More rest days?

See GP and get blood test for medical cause?


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## davidphilips (15 Aug 2020)

so I'm wondering if riding fasted (for maybe 10-12hrs . Cycling for 10 to 12 hours fasted? You are wondering why you get knackered? Is that a joke?


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## dave r (15 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Welcome to getting 'Old'



I've found that as get older my endurance is unaffected but I've lost speed, I'm now 68, not old to some but ancient to others.


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## CanucksTraveller (15 Aug 2020)

I wouldn't dream of heading out for a ride without some food in me, I'd fully expect to feel truly dreadful after a few miles if I'd not had anything to eat in 12 hours. 
Have a good breakfast one day and see if that improves things, I'd bet my shirt that it will.


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## vickster (15 Aug 2020)

davidphilips said:


> so I'm wondering if riding fasted (for maybe 10-12hrs . Cycling for 10 to 12 hours fasted? You are wondering why you get knackered? Is that a joke?


I think he means he’s not eaten for 10-12 hours, not cycling for 10-12 hours on no food


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## PaulSB (15 Aug 2020)

raleighnut said:


> Welcome to getting 'Old'





dave r said:


> I've found that as get older my endurance is unaffected but I've lost speed, I'm now 68, not old to some but ancient to others.



I would very much agree with Dave regarding endurance, at 66 if anything it is improving.

My speed is in fact increasing which is due to several factors namely, better wheels, improved technique and riding more frequently.


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## wafter (15 Aug 2020)

Thanks all 


PaulSB said:


> I'm not sure I can help other than make an observation on fasted rides. This is something quite beyond my comprehension. I'm sure people will be along to explain the ins and outs, plusses and minuses of fasted rides. To my simple mind it's this; you can't drive a car without putting fuel in the tank.
> 
> Based on your post two things have changed, riding less often and more fasted rides. This suggests something else has changed in your life and perhaps it is this other change which is impacting your cycling.
> 
> I believe we are all different and need to adapt our diet accordingly. It may be your body is happy to accept the occassional fasted ride but protests at this being a regular thing.


Fasted rides are apparently good for weight loss and while I don't go out of my way to do them when not doing low carb, sometimes they're necessary if I need to get out (relatively) "early".

There's always "fuel in the tank" - it's just a case of whether it's carbs or fat and whether I'm able to access it. This is what I'm trying to figure out from the symptoms; i.e. are aching muscles a sign of fatigue, lack of fuel or are they not exclusive to either..?

For example we all know that on a long, steady-state ride we'll reach a point where the muscles say "no" with fatigue no matter how much we refuel..

It's hard to tell but I think I've been riding less because I've felt more tired (although there are other factors too - weather, saddle sores, traffic...). I don't think the fasted rides in isolation have caused this, but may be causing the immediate effects on the ride and afterwards. I've not experienced this before but that was when I was already on a low-carb diet so presumably more adept at running on fat.

I've always suffered from fatigue and low energy to a point, but this seems to be even worse. Perhaps as raleighnut says it's just a sign of getting old. I'm tempted to go for a Corona test although don't much fancy the procedure and it seems false negatives are fairly common..



vickster said:


> Dehydration?
> 
> Or just eat something before you cycle and see if that helps?
> 
> ...


I hadn't thought of dehydration although it's possible as I think this is more likely in the morning and I probably drink a fair bit of water with breakfast. Eating before a ride is the obvious one; unfortunately I've not had the energy / motivation to go out for a long ride just for the sake of it for a while now, so no opportunities to test this out.

I think more rest days are out as I'm not doing a whole lot currently.. still ride pretty much every day but increasingly just 10-20 mile wafts around the city; certainly not the 500+ miles weekly I was doing a few months ago.

I've repeatedly been to the GP in the past with fatigue and it's never got me anywhere.. I have suspicions about underlying issues (food allergies) but these have rarely been humoured (still waiting for an appointment with a specialist as it happens) and previous blood tests have picked up little; although it does feel like something's changed fairly recently. Could be something dietry perhaps..



davidphilips said:


> so I'm wondering if riding fasted (for maybe 10-12hrs . Cycling for 10 to 12 hours fasted? You are wondering why you get knackered? Is that a joke?


Riding after 12hrs of not eating; not riding for 12hrs after not eating 



CanucksTraveller said:


> I wouldn't dream of heading out for a ride without some food in me, I'd fully expect to feel truly dreadful after a few miles if I'd not had anything to eat in 12 hours.
> Have a good breakfast one day and see if that improves things, I'd bet my shirt that it will.


How would you describe that dreadful feeling? I'd guess a lack of energy rather than aching muscles..?

As above eating before I go out is the obvious test, although I've not had the opportuity to try this yet...


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## vickster (15 Aug 2020)

Didn’t you say somewhere you’re not even 40? Hardly old!
Usual stuff, what other exercise do you do? Do you stretch those sore muscles regularly? Which muscles are sore, could be doms?
if you’re on a keto diet, do you take magnesium supplements? Friend of mine on low carb says needed as magnesium deficiency can cause muscle issues

Sounds like you need to talk to a doctor again if you generally feel unwell. Or a dietician?
And if there’s any chance you could have Covid, you really should get tested. Don’t be a wimp  You shouldn’t be going out if there’s any chance


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## CanucksTraveller (15 Aug 2020)

wafter said:


> How would you describe that dreadful feeling? I'd guess a lack of energy rather than aching muscles..?



Yes I think so, but it's been so long since I've done it that I can't be precise, I can only recall that for me, going out "empty" is a horrible experience.
Lack of energy certainly, and I think I get stomach pains too. Possibly not muscle *pain* as such though, I don't remember that particularly.


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## YellowV2 (16 Aug 2020)

AFAIA the suggestion is not to ride for longer than an hour fasted, if it is intended. 
50 miles is probably at least two hours? I would try eating before you ride!


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## Fab Foodie (16 Aug 2020)

PaulSB said:


> I'm not sure I can help other than make an observation on fasted rides. This is something quite beyond my comprehension. I'm sure people will be along to explain the ins and outs, plusses and minuses of fasted rides. To my simple mind it's this; you can't drive a car without putting fuel in the tank.
> 
> Based on your post two things have changed, riding less often and more fasted rides. This suggests something else has changed in your life and perhaps it is this other change which is impacting your cycling.
> 
> I believe we are all different and need to adapt our diet accordingly. It may be your body is happy to accept the occassional fasted ride but protests at this being a regular thing.


I can happily ride up to 60 miles fasted now without too much issue. Like everything else, if you build up to it it your body adapts. As long as you don‘t binge afterwards it is good for weight loss. Am 57.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Aug 2020)

YellowV2 said:


> AFAIA the suggestion is not to ride for longer than an hour fasted, if it is intended.
> 50 miles is probably at least two hours? I would try eating before you ride!


I’d say that nonsense.


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## YellowV2 (16 Aug 2020)

You would, to which bit eating, or the time taken to ride 50 miles? 
It was a suggestion based on coaching wisdom that I have read,  not on personal experience. Hence my saying AFAIA.
YMMV.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Aug 2020)

wafter said:


> Thanks all
> 
> Fasted rides are apparently good for weight loss and while I don't go out of my way to do them when not doing low carb, sometimes they're necessary if I need to get out (relatively) "early".
> 
> ...


I think mental stress can play big part in fatigue, so that’s worth considering especially in these strange times. But sometimes it’s your body telling you it needs a rest for whatever reason. I often have periods when my cycling mojo and abilities are low, so I just stop a while. Eventually I get a signal to get out again and I’m like a kid with a new toy!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (16 Aug 2020)

YellowV2 said:


> AFAIA the suggestion is not to ride for longer than an hour fasted, if it is intended.
> 50 miles is probably at least two hours? I would try eating before you ride!


Why not?


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## YellowV2 (16 Aug 2020)

Why do you think?


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## Fab Foodie (16 Aug 2020)

YellowV2 said:


> You would, to which bit eating, or the time taken to ride 50 miles?
> It was a suggestion based on coaching wisdom that I have read,  not on personal experience. Hence my saying AFAIA.
> YMMV.


I’d say a relatively fit and competent cyclist could hop out of bed and ride for an hour at a reasonable pace without any issue whatsoever.


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## YellowV2 (16 Aug 2020)

So are you agreeing with what I posted? I said not longer than an hour.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Aug 2020)

Fitness is never static and that includes endurance.

I got back to my first 200 (km) end of July, then 236 (km) when Audax restarted 1st August. These rides were hard for me where as pre Covid 19 these were my bread and butter distances and routine. now I need to put more effort into completing the distance successfully.

It will take a while for you to get back to what may have been routine distances for you. I’d try doing them at a slower pace for now and go back to basics with fuelling and hydration to workout what you need.

You can improve the endurance of leg muscles so they endure better and fatigue less over long distance. It is trainable. But it takes time, and it’s the slower rides that build this endurance not the harder efforts.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Aug 2020)

YellowV2 said:


> So are you agreeing with what I posted? I said not longer than an hour.



Riding for a few hours fasted is rarely an issue if you keep the effort below 70% of your max HR.


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## Fab Foodie (16 Aug 2020)

YellowV2 said:


> So are you agreeing with what I posted? I said not longer than an hour.


Yes, no, maybe. If anyone can do that, I.e a baseline, then going for longer shouldn’t be an issue either for a large number of riders. I’ve only just discovered how far I can go (I‘m no athlete) and 60 miles seems to be nearing my limit. I suspect most people don’t know they can comfortably ride much more than an hour fasted so never do. Maybe riding Tour de France pace is a different matter, but most don’t do that....


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## slowmotion (17 Aug 2020)

I would hate to come across as alarmingly uncool, but could I suggest a bowl of porridge for breakfast??


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## Fab Foodie (17 Aug 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Riding for a few hours fasted is rarely an issue if you keep the effort below 70% of your max HR.


And I guess @YellowV2 , that's the difference with coaching wisdom which is aimed at all-out performance/speed and a high glycogen burn....


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## YellowV2 (18 Aug 2020)

I would probably agree with that. Most articles I have read are aimed at training for racing/sportive type events. Although personally to ride at 70% of max for any time/distance is nigh on impossible, unless I were to drive somewhere relatively flat first!


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## PaulSB (18 Aug 2020)

slowmotion said:


> I would hate to come across as alarmingly uncool, but could I suggest a bowl of porridge for breakfast??



Far from it, you're very cool and spot on with this.

My rides are generally around 80-100 miles averaging 15.5-17 depending on terrain

I eat porridge made with 60g of oats and 360ml of water. I add one dessert spoon of honey and one of yoghurt. Drink one litre of water. I have this 45-60 minutes before leaving. I never run out of energy or get fatigued BUT if I don't have a cafe stop at 45-50 I know I'll be OKish for the 80 but at 100 I'm right on the limit. Give me more food and I'll go again for another 50.

One regular riding buddy has recently been on fasted rides with us. He has struggled badly. Ten days ago we convinced him to eat breakfast - back to his old self and put down 21/22 mph on the front for mile after mile on Monday's 95 miler.

I simply don't agree with not eating before a ride. Put fuel in the body and it will not let you down.


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