# Dutch Reach - ?



## simongt (20 Apr 2018)

Just been looking at the Cycling UK video in support of safer cycling. One 'request' it makes is to introduce the 'Dutch Reach' into the Highway Code which apparently requires all drivers to look over their shoulder before opening their car door.
Now, I was always under the impression that this was the case anyway, so I checked my trusty Highway Code book and Rule 239 states '...you MUST ensure you do not hit anyone when you open your door. Check for cyclists & other traffic..'
Does this then not already cover the 'Dutch Reach' - ?


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## vickster (20 Apr 2018)

Not completely. I believe the point of the Dutch Reach is that it forces you to look over your shoulder as you use your ‘opposite’ hand to open the door?


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## simongt (20 Apr 2018)

But when I was taught to drive in 1972, looking over one's shoulder before fully opening the car door was an integral part of my course. Am I missing something here - ?


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## vickster (20 Apr 2018)

People forget/don’t bother/don’t care

I expect the learning and test process has changed in the last 45 years. As have road conditions


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## Smokin Joe (20 Apr 2018)

simongt said:


> But when I was taught to drive in 1972, looking over one's shoulder before fully opening the car door was an integral part of my course. Am I missing something here - ?


Yes, as Vickster explains.


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## C R (20 Apr 2018)

I don't understand this thing of people not looking when they open the door, isn't it in their own interest to look? It won't be much fun if they door another car, let alone a bus or a lorry.


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## vickster (20 Apr 2018)

human action is not necessarily informed by logic


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## C R (20 Apr 2018)

vickster said:


> human action is not necessarily informed by logic


Oh, I don't dispute that. What I don't understand is how we got to this state of affairs. Growing up our parents drilled into us that you always look before opening the car door, otherwise a mighty big lorry may end up turning you into a burger, and I know that my friends parents were doing the same.


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## vickster (20 Apr 2018)

How old are you?


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## C R (20 Apr 2018)

I am 45, but I can't see the relevance, it is simply self preservation, we teach our children the same.


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## DaveReading (20 Apr 2018)

simongt said:


> But when I was taught to drive in 1972, looking over one's shoulder before fully opening the car door was an integral part of my course. Am I missing something here - ?



Er, yes. 

The rationale behind promoting the Dutch Reach is to help those drivers who have either not been taught what you were, or who have forgotten it, by persuading them to open the door in such a way as to increase the chances of them seeing a cyclist who would be in danger of being doored.


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## Drago (20 Apr 2018)

Dutch reach is a pile of poop. It is neither especially widely used in Holland, or particularly efficient and compelling one to look behind. The case for the prosecution is vastly overstated.


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## Johnno260 (20 Apr 2018)

sounds like common sense more than anything.


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## mjr (20 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> Dutch reach is a pile of poop. It is neither especially widely used in Holland, or particularly efficient and compelling one to look behind. The case for the prosecution is vastly overstated.


Maybe not widely-used, but it seems widely taught and I believe it's part of their driving standards. See Step 3 in this instruction video, for example:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHUh8NCbv_k


Of course, we all know from experience that some drivers stop behaving correctly once they get a licence!

I'm more in favour of bigger fines and more points for drivers who open their doors without looking with whatever hand, although we'll probably need more "operation close pass"-style unmarked police cycling operations to catch them.


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## C R (20 Apr 2018)

I think to some extent framing this issue as a problem for the safety of cyclists misses the point a bit. People opening car doors without looking is a road safety issue, of the same level as not using the mirror, it is dangerous for pedestrians and traffic going past the car, and it is dangerous for the person doing it.

When I check that it is safe to open a car door to exit, I do it as much for my own safety as for the safety of others, I think that is the angle that we should take regarding this issue. Whether we do the checking Dutch style or not is just a distraction.


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## Gravity Aided (21 Apr 2018)

I have a little invention called a side mirror on my car, looks a bit daft, adds to drag, but rather good for spotting things when exiting my car/van/thingy. And my Gramdma was Dutch. But she didn't have much to do with cars.


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## winjim (21 Apr 2018)

I tried the Dutch reach and all I got was a face full of door pillar, couldn't see out of the car at all. I'll stick to the tried and tested looking in the mirror. It's just automatic for me anyway.

If it's at all relevent, I learned to drive in the noughties, in my early thirties.


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## Pete Owens (22 Apr 2018)

Oh not the Dutch Reach again!

Before anyone starts to perpetuate this nonsense again please please borrow a car and try it. Sit in the drivers seat, reach the door handle squash your face right against the window and enjoy a perfectly clear view of your door pillar. While it might help avoid opening the door directly into stationary objects next to you, it is not possible from inside the car to see an approaching door-zone cyclist - for this you need to look in the mirror - and that should be adjusted to give the best view from a normal seated position.

And of course the solution to getting doored is in our own hands - don't ride in the door-zone.


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## Drago (22 Apr 2018)

Practicing this this morning taking Mini D to her swimming lesson, and using my left hand to open the drivers door required simply placing my left arm in front of my tummy and grabbing the handle - no twisting whatsoever involved. It's a crock.


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## mjr (22 Apr 2018)

It depends entirely on the car.


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## Drago (22 Apr 2018)

True, true. Sliding or suicide doors might well benefit, but front hinged outward opening ones can be opened very comfortably as I aforementioned.


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## mjr (22 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> True, true. Sliding or suicide doors might well benefit, but front hinged outward opening ones can be opened very comfortably as I aforementioned.


Depends where the pillar is, where the handle is and if you're tall and beautiful so tend to have longer arms. Dutch people are short... no, wait!


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## MikeG (22 Apr 2018)

No way on this planet is my back or neck going to let me twist around like that. Luckily, I've got perfectly good mirrors.


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## winjim (22 Apr 2018)

I'm sat in the car trying it now, and at best it angles my head slightly towards the off side door mirror, which is where I'm looking when I open the door anyway. There's no way it forces me to look over my shoulder and if it did, all I can see is the door pillar, the edge of my glasses, a tiny bit out of the rear off side door window and then the rear pillar. I can see the neck restraint behind me if I really crane my neck.


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## Drago (22 Apr 2018)

Let's all rush out to our cars and try it!


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## winjim (22 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> Let's all rush out to our cars and try it!


I was in the car anyway, I didn't go out specially!


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## Drago (22 Apr 2018)

So was I!

Mrs D's car is bigger than mine, so I'll try that tomoz.


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## Drago (22 Apr 2018)

Just back from walking the mutt. Mrs D's car, a current model Kia Sportage, is a bit bigger than the Pension Book Special. I leaped in, and sure enough can reach the door handle by placing my left arm across my stomach. No rotating right whatsoever, and if anything leaning forward fractionally.

I can't see the Dutch Death Grip being of use to anyone taller than Jimmy Krankie.


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## Serge (26 Apr 2018)

Drago said:


> Let's all rush out to our cars and try it!


I don't have a car!


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## Drago (26 Apr 2018)

Well that's no excuse!


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## Drago (17 May 2018)

mjr said:


> Maybe not widely-used, but it seems widely taught and I believe it's part of their driving standards.



It would seem that it isn't particularly widely taught, is not part of their driver training syllabus, or part of their driving test.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring

It's nothing to do with Holland at all.


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## winjim (17 May 2018)

Drago said:


> It would seem that it isn't particularly widely taught, is not part of their driver training syllabus, or part of their driving test.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring
> 
> It's nothing to do with Holland at all.


So the whole thing's a load of bobbins. Brilliant. Did nobody bother fact checking this with the Dutch?


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## mjr (17 May 2018)

Drago said:


> It would seem that it isn't particularly widely taught, is not part of their driver training syllabus, or part of their driving test.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dooring
> 
> It's nothing to do with Holland at all.


Have you been editing Wikipedia again? 

Isn't the claim on Wikipedia that it's not taught in the Netherlands rather contradicted by videos like the one you didn't quote from my post?

In general, I still think it depends on the car and height of the driver.


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## dutchguylivingintheuk (18 May 2018)

It is taught in Dutch driving lessons but also in Belgium, here in the uk and many other countries. Never heard this as a typical dutch term. The whole shoulder idea means that you look in your mirror first and look over your shoulder to prevent hitting anyone while opening your door while he is in your blind corner. so it is vehicle dependent, in a Sprinter is more important then in a Smart


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## GuyBoden (19 Aug 2019)

*Rule 239*

you *MUST* ensure you do not hit anyone when you open your door. Check for cyclists or other traffic






Rule 239: Check before opening your door

Can't find the "Dutch Reach" in the online Highway Code version, yet.


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## LCpl Boiled Egg (19 Aug 2019)

It's in the Viz Profanisaurus...


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## Johnno260 (20 Aug 2019)

Funny thing is a Dutch person almost took out my 5yr old while on holiday in France, she opened the door without checking how my child swerved to avoid the door I don’t know, I was pretty impressed. 

The Dutch women mouthed off I just pointed at my eyes and said look. 

My daughter went to say sorry still but she wasn’t in the wrong.


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