# Commuting in the dark of night.



## Lovacott (12 Sep 2020)

I leave for work at 5.45 am and my commute takes an hour.

Over the last month, the earlier miles of my ride have been getting increasingly dark and on Monday this week, I left for work in the pitch black of night and in about another month, my whole morning commute will be in the dark.

The last time I commuted in the dark was when I lived in London where (to be honest) there is no such thing as a dark night.

But where I live now, there are no street lights in the country lanes and there are no houses with porch lights left on. It's just plain dark.

I want to keep up my commute through winter and I have no issue with cold and wet and ice and snow.

But it does worry me that I won't be able to see where I am going and that others won't be able to see me.

I've been obsessing about lights and visibility for the last month or so and I have pretty much sussed out my plan for the dark months ahead.

But I am still shitting bricks at the prospect.

Anyone else experiencing the same anxieties?


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## roubaixtuesday (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But it does worry me that I won't be able to see where I am going and that others won't be able to see me.



I'm not sure if this is too obvious but... get some decent lights?

Modern LED lights are great and more than adequate to you needs, either rechargeable or with a dynamo hub front wheel. 

Pre covid, I did a similar commute to you using battery LEDs, every day all through winter, no problem. I use an exposure strada, which is damn expensive, but still going strong after probably 10 years or so. If you stay a thread asking for light recommendations, I'm sure you'll get inundated. 

I also have a helmet light for extra visibility, which has both front and rear. And I like reflective jackets. 

Luck!


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## StuAff (12 Sep 2020)

As someone who has done an awful lot of night riding, including commutes (I've ridden a few of the post-2015 one, 20 miles each way…) +1 for all of @roubaixtuesday 's points. Decent lights will ensure you can see and be seen. Those who moan you're hard to see would no matter what- a colleague told me I was hard to see because my jacket was black. So, only the reflectives on said jacket, reflective ankle bands, the red rear reflector on the bike, reflective panel on the pannier and the potent rear light to see me by then…


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## furball (12 Sep 2020)

Stop worrying and get sorted with decent lights now so that you can start using them in the mornings for a short time until the sun rises. Gradually you'll use them for longer and by the time the clocks change you should be a bit more confident. Also make sure you know where the potholes and bad road edges are.


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## Lovacott (12 Sep 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> I'm not sure if this is too obvious but... get some decent lights?



I've got lights coming out of my ears at the moment. I've got two sets of rechargeable LED's on the front and back and I've installed a Dynamo and light set today as add ons/fail safes.

But to be honest, hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.


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## roubaixtuesday (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I've got lights coming out of my ears at the moment. I've got two sets of rechargeable LED's on the front and back and I've installed a Dynamo and light set today as add ons/fail safes.
> 
> But to be honest, hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.



Haha!

In that case you'll be just fine. My lighting sounds inadequate compared to yours, but it's easily good for a 30mph descent on familiar roads. 

Just take it easy to start with. Let us know how you get on.


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## StuAff (12 Sep 2020)

You'll be fine with that lot. Why not do a test run?


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## Lovacott (12 Sep 2020)

StuAff said:


> a colleague told me I was hard to see because my jacket was black. So, only the reflectives on said jacket, reflective ankle bands, the red rear reflector on the bike, reflective panel on the pannier and the potent rear light to see me by then…



When I am driving a car (as most cyclists do) I find that hi viz clothing makes the cyclist much more visible than any LED tail light.

Also, hi viz clothing won't run out of batteries or suffer an electrical failure.


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## Lovacott (12 Sep 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Haha!
> 
> In that case you'll be just fine. My lighting sounds inadequate compared to yours, but it's easily good for a 30mph descent on familiar roads.
> Just take it easy to start with. Let us know how you get on.



I'm looking forward to the experience and shitting my pants at the same time. One of the side effects of being alive I suppose.


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## MontyVeda (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I've got lights coming out of my ears at the moment. I've got two sets of rechargeable LED's on the front and back and I've installed a Dynamo and light set today as add ons/fail safes.
> 
> *But to be honest, hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.*


Take it more slowly then


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## cyberknight (12 Sep 2020)

I use a cree solarstorm light up front for unlit country lanes along with a normal back up bike light, on the back i have a big rear light on the seatpost and a small flasher on each pannier bag.I leave for work on days at the same time and have been riding for years all year around


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## Lovacott (12 Sep 2020)

StuAff said:


> You'll be fine with that lot. Why not do a test run?


Because I leave at 5.45 am, I've had tasters of a dark run over the last couple of weeks. That's why I've gone all out mental on lights in the last week.

The one plus I have noticed is that it's very easy to see if a car is coming up from either behind you or towards you from the other side of a blind bend. 

Maybe the pros outweigh the cons?


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## Lovacott (12 Sep 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> Take it more slowly then


Then I'd be late for work.


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## roubaixtuesday (12 Sep 2020)

TBH, whilst it did feel less safe in the dark, I suspect properly kitted out as you are, you're actually much more visible to motorists than you are during the day.


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## All uphill (12 Sep 2020)

I don't commute, but I do use some roads very frequently. I have recently reported 12 potholes on these roads through the council website, not expecting much.

To my amazement all 12 have been filled within days.

If potholes are a concern on your commute it could be worth trying this.


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## cyberknight (12 Sep 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> TBH, whilst it did feel less safe in the dark, I suspect properly kitted out as you are, you're actually much more visible to motorists than you are during the day.


indeed i find the overtakes are better as they tend to give more room in the dark than in daylight


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## Zanelad (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Then I'd be late for work.



Leave earlier then. The bulk of my commute is on unlit roads. I use a decent light to see the road and a smaller flashing light up fron and a fixed light at the rear. You'll soon get used to the roads and know where any problem areas are. I too find passing motorists give me more room when it's dark.


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## roadrash (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Then I'd be late for work.





Lovacott said:


> But to be honest, hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.



seriously , bearing these two comments in mind, leave earlier , ride slower


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## Dayvo (12 Sep 2020)

I experienced the very same two weeks ago.

The mornings are noticeably darker from week to week here, and instead of just being seen by my flashing light, I needed to see the road ahead, too.

I did my research and settled on a https://road.cc/content/review/252199-niterider-swift-500-front-light which I am very satisfied with.


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## stoatsngroats (12 Sep 2020)

ProViz clothing seems to be a real help, stealth colours often, and a great reaction when head lights light it up.
Having dual lights is one of my choices too, I have rechargeable and battery light front and rear, and carry spare batteries so that I’m not caught without lights. I have found that even a Moon meteor 250 (old one) and a battery smart front light give enough light for unlit roads, but I don’t rush about.
Same for the rear, just bought a Moon Comet for the rear, which I run with a battery Smart R1, also I have put Cateye bar end lights on the drops too, which I feel has showed the width of me... others may not agree, but I feel that wider passes have resulted from this.


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## cougie uk (12 Sep 2020)

Deffo have the two lights on the back.

Reflective jackets are nice but get reflectives on your feet or lower legs. The movement catches the eye far better than a jacket. Reflective overshoes would be great.


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## steve292 (12 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Reflective jackets are nice but get reflectives on your feet or lower legs. The movement catches the eye far better than a jacket. Reflective overshoes would be great.


You are not wrong. Also I run 2 lights front and back.


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## classic33 (12 Sep 2020)

I've done all year round commuting, early starts and late finish's. It's not as bad as you may feel it will be.

Your eyes will adjust to the available light, meaning it won't seem as dark after a while. Being visible from behind is as important as forward visibility.

Adjust your riding, and timings, to suit the requirements of the commute. There may be less traffic on the roads at those times.


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## furball (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I've got lights coming out of my ears at the moment. I've got two sets of rechargeable LED's on the front and back and I've installed a Dynamo and light set today as add ons/fail safes.
> 
> But to be honest, hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.


There's no need to be hurtling anywhere. 
Your speed should be determined by conditions. In wet weather verges become churned up and it isn't always clear what's road edge and what's verge. You should only go at a speed you can take in what you are seeing which, however good your lights are, will be less than in daylight.
Fog, frost, ice, snow, torrential rain and wind all add different challenges when riding in the dark but you should learn how to cope with each providing speed isn't your main criteria.


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## Andy in Germany (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I leave for work at 5.45 am and my commute takes an hour.
> 
> Over the last month, the earlier miles of my ride have been getting increasingly dark and on Monday this week, I left for work in the pitch black of night and in about another month, my whole morning commute will be in the dark.
> 
> ...



I worked for a while in Taunton and lived out in the countryside about 15k away, so my commute dropped into darkness at the edge of Taunton and stayed thus until I reached my home town; this was in 1995; the days of halogen lights with mahoosive batteries. I was on narrow category 3 roads most of the way, so no lights whatsoever.

It was a bit unnerved at first, especially at the western edge of Taunton, when I left the street lights and entered the Outer Darkness, but I actually found I preferred riding at night because I could see the cars from further away and they tended to travel more slowly. I realised after a while that in clear weather my night vision quickly worked better than a front light so I'd switch it off and turn it on again when I saw lights ahead. It was far safer than riding in traffic in Taunton by day or night.

Now I'm commuting here and I'll be riding in darkness again very soon: I'm thoroughly looking forward to it...


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Sep 2020)

You are actually more visible in the pitch black of the night and can see cars from far away. They will also notice you better than on a lit road. Sounds like you have plenty of light and will be fine. I commuted for 12 years on pitch black roads with just a dynamo light. No probs.


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## steveindenmark (12 Sep 2020)

I live in the darkest of Denmark. I have a 20km commute every working day. I leave at 4.30am.. I have an Exposure Joystick on the front and carry a spare Joystick. I have 3 lights on the rear and carry a spare. I also wear a viz vest. I really enjoy my rides in the dark. I just take it easy.


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (12 Sep 2020)

Good front light, two rears, maybe some reflective panels on clothing. 

Ride to what you can see ahead.


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## mjr (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Also, hi viz clothing won't run out of batteries or suffer an electrical failure.


No, it just does nothing if no lights are shining at it. Have you seen how many motorists have wildly misaimed lights or even no lights?

There's no substitute for a back light with a big surface area and good side visibility.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Sep 2020)

Indeed lights is the priority, viz if it makes you feel better


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## snorri (12 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I want to keep up my commute through winter and I have no issue with cold and wet and ice and snow. But it does worry me that I won't be able to see where I am going and that others won't be able to see me.


I think you are worried about the least of your problems, lighting is easily resolved, rain, ice and snow less easy to deal with, and wind!.


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## Sharky (12 Sep 2020)

Hi viz in daylight, but reflective at night time. Slap bands on the ankles are really effective. 
Two headlights. One focused a long way ahead to pick up the bends in the road and one focused more in the near ground to pick up potholes etc. 

On quiet country roads, ride almost on the centre white line. You soon know when there is a car behind and you can move over.


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## cougie uk (12 Sep 2020)

Out of interest - how will you cope with ice and snow ? For me they're a no no but I don't have to cycle to work


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## classic33 (13 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Out of interest - how will you cope with ice and snow ? For me they're a no no but I don't have to cycle to work


Use lower pressures in your tyres, ride slower and keep an eye open for any odd patches of road in front of you(which will slow you down).

Should you hit ice, make no attempt to change speed or direction.

Snow, try and ride in fresh snow, avoid the tyre tracks of motor vehicles. Especially if it's frozen since the tracks were formed. 

For both be mindful that any slight thaw may leave a track of water that is hidden from your view.

Contrasting colours being worn rather than just the one colour. Saturn Yellow can all but disappear against snow.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

mjr said:


> No, it just does nothing if no lights are shining at it. Have you seen how many motorists have wildly misaimed lights or even no lights?
> There's no substitute for a back light with a big surface area and good side visibility.



I've got two LED lights on the back and an 8" wide dynamo light/reflector combination. I stressed the importance of Hi Viz because in the unlikely event of a total lighting failure, I would still be visible.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> I worked for a while in Taunton and lived out in the countryside about 15k away, so my commute dropped into darkness at the edge of Taunton and stayed thus until I reached my home town; this was in 1995; the days of halogen lights with mahoosive batteries. I was on narrow category 3 roads most of the way, so no lights whatsoever.



I know that area reasonably well. I have relatives near Wivvy.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Out of interest - how will you cope with ice and snow ? For me they're a no no but I don't have to cycle to work


Because all of my commute is within five miles of the sea, ice and snow are pretty rare. The last snow we had was over two years ago and work closed down for two days (it's in a very rural location and nobody could get near the place).

I used to commute in London on a racing bike and I found that I had better grip on the roads than any of the cars when there was snow on the ground. Maybe something to do with the point loading on the tyres?

The worst of the conditions I will experience will be heavy rains and flooding. Some of the roads I use are pretty shocking and I would loathe to drive on them with a car. I'll take a picture of one of the bad stretches tomorrow and share it on here.


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## Andy in Germany (13 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Out of interest - how will you cope with ice and snow ? For me they're a no no but I don't have to cycle to work



What @classic33 said, plus spiked tyres: they are heavy but the bike handles like it is on dry tarmac, in fact the biggest danger is that I stop on sheet ice thinking it is dry and my foot slips when I put it on the ground...


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## steveindenmark (13 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Out of interest - how will you cope with ice and snow ? For me they're a no no but I don't have to cycle to work


I ride down to minus 10. When it comes to ice and snow, I drive. In the last 3 years I have probably driven half a dozen times. We just dont seem to get winters anymore.


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## Tom B (13 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> Out of interest - how will you cope with ice and snow ? For me they're a no no but I don't have to cycle to work




I commute via bike day or night sun, rain, wind, snow or ice. I haven't used the car for nearly 5yrs. 

I set of anything from 5am onwards and can finish anything up to 3am, dependent on shifts. I work.in suburban Manchester and live in outer suburban/semi rural. My route takes me over town roads into country A-roads though I do alternate my routes and have a no respect in the working week rule. The alternative routes are some single lane rural roads and some off road cycle paths.

I much prefer cycling at night, the later the better, there is less traffic and generally less risk of people stepping out etc. In the early hours I can often get out of town then not see a car for 20mins. 

In terms of lighting and seeing where you are going, don't worry about it. The human eye adjusts massively and you'll see lots simply by moonlight. Streetlit roads are absolutely fine. Of course you will need lights and I recommend and run a cateye 1200l jobbie on the front and a lezyne stripdrive on the back. The front light runs at 400lumen low setting on the road and under streetlights and I turn it up to 800l on the unlit country roads and only really need 1200l on the paths.

One thing I will say is make sure you have at least 1set of back up lights because a time will come when you've left them on or forgot to charge them. I have a couple of alpkit tau one on my bag one on the back of my helmet and another front stripdrive. I also have a spare set of battery lights in my locker just in case.

In short seeing isn't a problem, it's being seen that I worry about and to that end I make sure I wear bright or reflective/retroflective clothing. I follow a guy out of town quite often hes ALWAYS dressed in head to toe black and has a couple of weedy lights that point at the floor. He can be hard to spot on a dark wet day amongst the rain and when looking into a stream of headlights.

In terms of snow and ice, I have a spare set of cheap junk wheels with Schwalbe winter spiked tyres on. I use them on the work icy / snowy days. They really do help with traction and grip, (as long as the snow is not too deep I can get up stuff that many cars struggle with) but as others have said are heavy I'd guess I use them 10 -15 days a year and hardly at all last year. They are heavy and noticeably harder work.It is surprising what grip is out there especially on salted roads especially once traffic gets going.


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## MontyVeda (13 Sep 2020)

roadrash said:


> seriously , bearing these two comments in mind, leave earlier , ride slower


It's not rocket science is it?

One of my former commutes took me up over the hills which were the first place to get icy in winter so i planned for pushing the bike up these bits by setting off five minutes earlier. I only ever had to walk over the icy bits once but it's a worthy consideration, as is having time to fix a puncture if need be. My employer was a time-keeping fanatic so I'd rather turn up 15 minutes early than 5 minutes late.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

All uphill said:


> I don't commute, but I do use some roads very frequently. I have recently reported 12 potholes on these roads through the council website, not expecting much. To my amazement all 12 have been filled within days.



If I do a Google maps directions search from my house to work, the car option is 13.8 miles with ten of that being a busy A road with some four miles of suicidal dual carriageway.

If I do the same search using cycling as my mode of transport, I get a 17 mile each way trip utilising a very flat and scenic coastal cycle path followed by about 3 miles of very dangerous and winding Devon A road.

But if I set the route option to walking, I get 9.8 miles door to door on country lanes and that is the route I cycle.

The first five miles of road have pretty decent surfaces but there are no white lines or signs.

The second half can only be described as farm tracks which were tarmaced maybe fifty years ago and are not adopted by the local authority.

If I had my way, I'd ride a road bike along the first half and then get my butler to hand me an lumpy but sturdy steel framed MTB for the last 4.8 miles. Trouble is, I can't remember my butlers name so I can't ask him.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> It's not rocket science is it?



To put things into context, I start work at 8am but I have been arriving at 6.40am since I started cycle commuting.

I allow plenty of time for all of the reasons you have mentioned.

I built in the "contingency" time originally to allow me time to recover (to stop panting and sweating) but I don't arrive in that state any more.

I have still got some time to play with.


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## winjim (13 Sep 2020)

Pedal reflectors.


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## MontyVeda (13 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> To put things into context, I start work at 8am but I have been arriving at 6.40am since I started cycle commuting.
> 
> I allow plenty of time for all of the reasons you have mentioned.
> 
> ...


So you don't need to hurtle down that hill in the dark.


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## flake99please (13 Sep 2020)

I have been commuting to work by bike for the last six years during the night (0300hrs departure). Some of the journey through lighted roads, some through unlit wooded paths. Some decent lights should give you no reason to worry about your journey.


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## lazybloke (13 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> If I do a Google maps directions search from my house to work, the car option is 13.8 miles with ten of that being a busy A road with some four miles of suicidal dual carriageway.
> 
> If I do the same search using cycling as my mode of transport, I get a 17 mile each way trip utilising a very flat and scenic coastal cycle path followed by about 3 miles of very dangerous and winding Devon A road.
> 
> ...


I was about to recommend finding an enjoyable route; whic his rarely the shortest.
You're very lucky If those farm tracks tick both boxes.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

lazybloke said:


> I was about to recommend finding an enjoyable route; which is rarely the shortest.
> You're very lucky If those farm tracks tick both boxes.



Your input is valuable to me.

To avoid the farm tracks, I'd need to add a minimum of five miles to my journey and most of it would be on really fast A roads.

During the summer months, I've been making a mental note of where the potholes are and where the branches overhang.

Because it is getting progressively darker every morning, I am being gently weaned into night commuting.

I'm not complaining. I'm simply trying to garner something useful from others with a bit more experience. 

Thanks for your help.


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## furball (13 Sep 2020)

Sounds a though you've been sensible. Don't worry. Just do it.


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## MrGrumpy (13 Sep 2020)

snorri said:


> I think you are worried about the least of your problems, lighting is easily resolved, rain, ice and snow less easy to deal with, and wind!.


Amen to that !


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## Blue Hills (13 Sep 2020)

From a quick thread scan am uncertain if you have sorted your lights yet lovacott.

If not and you don't go the much recommended dynamo route, I can thoroughly recommend this

https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/b-m-ixon-iq-premium-led-headlight-80-lux--703596

I don't commute at night but quite often ride through the night at all times of year.

I share your (sensible) concern about hurtling downhill in particular in dark lanes.

You will have no problems with that light - great beam pattern.

I'd marry it with some quality rechargeables and a quality charger (ask more if you want more advice/opinion) and have a Lidl front as a back-up - like the above light they will use the German standard beam pattern.

I second the advice about using two live rear lights - they don't need to be expensive at all.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> From a quick thread scan am uncertain if you have sorted your lights yet lovacott.
> 
> If not and you don't go the much recommended dynamo route, I can thoroughly recommend this
> 
> https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/b-m-ixon-iq-premium-led-headlight-80-lux--703596



I spent a good deal of yesterday installing a dynamo set on my bike to supplement the two rechargeable LED light sets I already have.

It's a bottle dynamo and it works so well, I'm already fully converted to the idea of a hub dynamo as a long term solution.

I'm really glad I found this site. So much good and useful feedback.


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## Blue Hills (13 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I spent a good deal of yesterday installing a dynamo set on my bike to supplement the two rechargeable LED light sets I already have.
> 
> It's a bottle dynamo and it works so well, I'm already fully converted to the idea of a hub dynamo as a long term solution.
> 
> I'm really glad I found this site. So much good and useful feedback.


If you want to experiment with a hub system (far superior I think to a bottle dynamo) Decathlon do a complete wheel with a shimano hub dynamo for £30. Even includes rim tape and the shimano connector.
Available online only I think, though you can pair that with free click and collect from a Decathlon store.
Available in 700 and 26inch wheel sizes.


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## Lovacott (13 Sep 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> So you don't need to hurtle down that hill in the dark.



Probably not.


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## fossyant (13 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I've got lights coming out of my ears at the moment. I've got two sets of rechargeable LED's on the front and back and I've installed a Dynamo and light set today as add ons/fail safes.
> 
> But to be honest, hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.



You'll be fine. I off road MTB at night. It's ace.


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## lazybloke (13 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Your input is valuable to me.
> 
> To avoid the farm tracks, I'd need to add a minimum of five miles to my journey and most of it would be on really fast A roads.
> 
> ...


Well you've sorted the lights and route; what does that leave? Clothing.
I used to abandon the bike and revert to train if it was raining, and I'd take a couple of months off the bike in the depths of winter.
But after a bit of shopping at Decathlon I was cycling year round in all conditions. Layers are good.


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## JhnBssll (14 Sep 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> From a quick thread scan am uncertain if you have sorted your lights yet lovacott.
> 
> If not and you don't go the much recommended dynamo route, I can thoroughly recommend this
> 
> https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/b-m-ixon-iq-premium-led-headlight-80-lux--703596



I also rate Busch & Muller lights very highly. I run a dynamo hub on my commuter connected to a Busch & Muller IQ-X front light:

https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/b-m-iq-x-led-headlight-837399

Whilst the lux rating compares poorly to some high powered battery lights, the beam pattern is so well designed that I find it illuminates the road better than my Lezyne battery lights on the other bikes. Another advantage of this well designed beam pattern is it does not blind oncoming traffic, even when aimed fairly high. I run a combination of dynamo and battery rear lights.

I also own a Proviz reflective jacket - it's incredible. I purchased it after seeing a cyclist wearing one about 4 miles in the distance  The only problem I find with it is lack of breathability - I feel a bit like a pouch of boil-in-the-bag rice when I get to work on warmer days


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## HobbesOnTour (14 Sep 2020)

There's been some great advice on here.
Good lights
Give yourself time.
I'd add to make sure you're comfortable being able to fix a puncture in the dark. That's where a detachable light can come in handy.

If I'm understanding correctly you're using Google to pick out a route? I wouldn't trust Google to take me across the road! I don't know how well you know the different road options, but I'd suggest trying 
https://cycle.travel/ or even just taking some time to explore alternatives to the rough bits. 
I don't want to put you off but rough and bad surfaces do not get better in foul weather 

On the other hand, starting to commute was one of the best things I've done. An hour in the morning, arriving to work fresh and alert - best part of the day! 

Take your time and it will all come good.
Best of luck!


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## roubaixtuesday (14 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> It's a bottle dynamo



Hope that works well for you. I went to rechargeables after finding bottle dynamos are prone to slipping in the rain, exactly when you need them most!

But as you've got plenty of backup, it's probably worth seeing how it goes.


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## Lovacott (14 Sep 2020)

HobbesOnTour said:


> If I'm understanding correctly you're using Google to pick out a route?



I know the local roads pretty well and I've tried all of the different ways in by car. Google just confirms that I am taking the shortest possible route from A to B.

There is another route which is about half a mile longer overall and the roads are a bit better but that is used as a rat run by a fair bit of traffic. 

The route I take is pretty much traffic free (saw one car this morning, two foxes, a hare and a dead owl).


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## Lovacott (14 Sep 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Hope that works well for you. I went to rechargeables after finding bottle dynamos are prone to slipping in the rain, exactly when you need them most!
> 
> But as you've got plenty of backup, it's probably worth seeing how it goes.



I used it commuting for the first time this morning and it worked well. Good light pattern. 

I could feel the difference on the hills with the additional resistance but that's something I will get used to. 

With that and two rechargeables up front, the road was pretty well lit. Also had a bit of fog in one place but it didn't give me too much trouble.


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## MichaelW2 (14 Sep 2020)

Darkness is not really a danger, you can fit powerful lamps and reflective gear. Dusk is far more hazardous, esp if the sun is low ahead or hehind you.

Rural dark needs brighter lights but yout eyes adjust and you should know your commuting route very well.

Roads have microclimates so frost and ice first form in the same place along your route.


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## icowden (14 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I used it commuting for the first time this morning and it worked well. Good light pattern.
> 
> I could feel the difference on the hills with the additional resistance but that's something I will get used to.
> 
> With that and two rechargeables up front, the road was pretty well lit. Also had a bit of fog in one place but it didn't give me too much trouble.



I've always found the biggest problem has been going from lit roads to unlit as you have a minute or two of your eyes adjusting to the new light levels.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Sep 2020)

JhnBssll said:


> I also rate Busch & Muller lights very highly. I run a dynamo hub on my commuter connected to a Busch & Muller IQ-X front light:
> 
> https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/b-m-iq-x-led-headlight-837399
> 
> Whilst the lux rating compares poorly to some high powered battery lights



I’m not sure it does compare poorly. Dynamos often quote lux whilst high power battery lights quote lumens. These units are not comparable .


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## Blue Hills (14 Sep 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> I’m not sure it does compare poorly. Dynamos often quote lux whilst high power battery lights quote lumens. These units are not comparable .


I think he just meant the numbers seemed lower.
But the sheer number (lumens) is not as he pointed out terribly useful/significant.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Sep 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I think he just meant the numbers seemed lower.
> But the sheer number (lumens) is not as he pointed out terribly useful/significant.



Yes but the numbers for lux don’t tell you how many lumens a dynamo light puts out. The lumens of a battery light don’t tell you how many lux it’s putting out. You’re not comparing like with like.


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## JhnBssll (15 Sep 2020)

Sure, lux and lumens are different units... Lux takes into account the lit area, so 1 Lux is equal to 1 Lumen per square meter. The IQ-X is 100 lux and my Lezyne is 1200 lumens - the Lezyne definitely does not light up 12x the area at the same brightness, or the same area at 12x the brightness  Presumably this is due to the properly designed optics of the IQ-X, focusing the light where its needed rather than scattering it everywhere like most battery lights do. Dont get me wrong, there are times when that is useful, but more often than not the trusty little dynamo light is more than I need on my commute


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

JhnBssll said:


> Sure, lux and lumens are different units... Lux takes into account the lit area, so 1 Lux is equal to 1 Lumen per square meter.



My front dynamo light is 30 lux and my rechargeable LED's are 3000 lumens each (allegedly).

Not very scientific, but the Dutch dynamo light seems to light up an equal amount of road for about the same distance as one of the (alleged) 3000 lumen Chinese rechargeables. I tested this by running with just the dynamo light for a stretch and then just one of the rechargeables for another stretch.

The dynamo gives a wider spread of light whilst the rechargeables have a more concentrated beam.


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

Day two of dark commuting and it was pitch black for the first half of the ride. Heavy cloud cover blocked out any twilight.

I tried the dynamo light on its own for a stretch and it was good for seeing the general layout of the road but not much cop at picking out details like potholes. In combination with the rechargeable lights, I could see perfectly. 

Most of my commute has no road markings (no white lines or signs) so I was pretty pleased with how things went. Managed to do the trip in my usual time. Another week or so and the whole thing will be in the complete dark.


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## steve292 (15 Sep 2020)

Full darkness is safer to ride in, in my opinion. It's the half light or low blinding sun conditions that worry me the most.


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## matticus (15 Sep 2020)

steve292 said:


> Full darkness is safer to ride in, in my opinion. It's the half light or low blinding sun conditions that worry me the most.


Yup. (and the accident stats show that riding at night is much safer!)

If (s)he's well-equipped a cyclist stands out really well on a dark lane. I don't like badly lit urban roads when they are busy with lots of car headlights to hide you (even worse in the rain) - but then such a road is fairly hazardous during daylight :-/

Seeing the ground is just something you deal with. On certain roads you might slow a little (it's your life!). Commuting you tend to know every minor defect after a few weeks, so the issue almost goes away.


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## Pikey (15 Sep 2020)

I popped a fresnel lens in one of the Chinese cree battery led’s, that made a big Improvement in the beam pattern. 
unsure what colour your bike is but 3m make reflective tape, I buy the black stuff as my bike is black. Invisible in the day, just blends in but It properly lights up with headlights. I coated the back of my recumbent trike with it for night riding.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Sep 2020)

JhnBssll said:


> Sure, lux and lumens are different units... Lux takes into account the lit area, so 1 Lux is equal to 1 Lumen per square meter. The IQ-X is 100 lux and my Lezyne is 1200 lumens - the Lezyne definitely does not light up 12x the area at the same brightness, or the same area at 12x the brightness  Presumably this is due to the properly designed optics of the IQ-X, focusing the light where its needed rather than scattering it everywhere like most battery lights do. Dont get me wrong, there are times when that is useful, but more often than not the trusty little dynamo light is more than I need on my commute



Indeed and will likely be putting more lumens on the actual road.


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## MichaelW2 (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Day two of dark commuting and it was pitch black for the first half of the ride. Heavy cloud cover blocked out any twilight.
> 
> I tried the dynamo light on its own for a stretch and it was good for seeing the general layout of the road but not much cop at picking out details like potholes. In combination with the rechargeable lights, I could see perfectly.
> 
> Most of my commute has no road markings (no white lines or signs) so I was pretty pleased with how things went. Managed to do the trip in my usual time. Another week or so and the whole thing will be in the complete dark.


On a rural route you can place small reflective markers on trees etc to highlight particular hazards.
You do need to beware of new hazards esp branches after a storm.


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## MontyVeda (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Day two of dark commuting and it was pitch black for the first half of the ride. Heavy cloud cover blocked out any twilight.
> 
> I tried the dynamo light on its own for a stretch and it was good for seeing the general layout of the road but not much cop at picking out details like potholes. In combination with the rechargeable lights, I could see perfectly.
> 
> Most of my commute has no road markings (no white lines or signs) so I was pretty pleased with how things went. Managed to do the trip in my usual time. Another week or so and the whole thing will be in the complete dark.


Keep a mental map of where you notice the frost developing too... for me it was a concern around the lower parts of my ride, in the valleys and on bridges, where i'd be going quite fast in the summer... it also developed near the top of one hill but i'd only be going about 4mph on that stretch. I happily ride over frost and ice, but only at a speed where I don't need to lean to turn, so about walking pace.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Day two of dark commuting and it was pitch black for the first half of the ride. Heavy cloud cover blocked out any twilight.
> 
> I tried the dynamo light on its own for a stretch and it was good for seeing the general layout of the road but not much cop at picking out details like potholes. In combination with the rechargeable lights, I could see perfectly.
> 
> Most of my commute has no road markings (no white lines or signs) so I was pretty pleased with how things went. Managed to do the trip in my usual time. Another week or so and the whole thing will be in the complete dark.



Have you aligned the dynamo light correctly and at the correct height? Even with that, the trick with potholes is to be looking ahead not just in front of your wheel. After a while you’ll know where pot holes are and naturally steer round them anyway on auto pilot.


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## cyberknight (15 Sep 2020)

Hadmy single lens xml t6 on this morning and glad i did as it was very dark this morning coming home , i think having a beam of light that helps you to see where your going also helps motorists see you too as i dont get close overtakes when i running it .I didovertake another cyclist with standard see mee lights and only just saw them in the fog .


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## matticus (15 Sep 2020)

Do what the drivers do; leave your fog-lights on until at least April. Cos you never know when it might be foggy again, do you?


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Have you aligned the dynamo light correctly and at the correct height? Even with that, the trick with potholes is to be looking ahead not just in front of your wheel. After a while you’ll know where pot holes are and naturally steer round them anyway on auto pilot.



The light is well aligned but it throws out a bit of patchy light which doesn't pick out the potholes as well as the LED rechargeables. 

There are a lot of potholes on some of the stretches of road and it's a bit like making your way through a minefield. These are rural single track lanes mainly used by farm traffic. There is one stretch of downhill where I am on the brakes all the way down manoeuvring from side to side picking out the sound bits of surface. The route saves me about four miles each way of nasty high speed A road so it's worth the effort.

I have built up a map in my head of where the dodgy sections of road are and I've also memorised the locations of defects on the good sections (there is a particularly nasty sunken cover on one fast down hill bit of road).


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## MichaelW2 (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> The light is well aligned but it throws out a bit of patchy light which doesn't pick out the potholes as well as the LED rechargeables.
> 
> There are a lot of potholes on some of the stretches of road and it's a bit like making your way through a minefield. These are rural single track lanes mainly used by farm traffic. There is one stretch of downhill where I am on the brakes all the way down manoeuvring from side to side picking out the sound bits of surface. The route saves me about four miles each way of nasty high speed A road so it's worth the effort.
> 
> I have built up a map in my head of where the dodgy sections of road are and I've also memorised the locations of defects on the good sections (there is a particularly nasty sunken cover on one fast down hill bit of road).


Take can of white road spray paint to those potholes.


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## classic33 (15 Sep 2020)

If the road surface is as bad as you say, why are you placing speed over safety in using them?


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> Take can of white road spray paint to those potholes.


I'd need about fifty cans and paint doesn't stick to cowshit anyway.


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> If the road surface is as bad as you say, why are you placing speed over safety in using them?


Where did I mention speed over safety?


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## classic33 (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But to be honest, *hurtling downhill along a pitch black country lane still seems like a scary prospect.*


Yet you say you can't set off earlier or ride slower, as you'd be late for work.

Unlit section of what sounds more like a dirt track than road, you want to fly down it, knowing there's unsafe parts at present. Add in rain, followed by a bit of cold weather overnight, and if you're lucky there may just be extra water on parts. Ice if you're unlucky.


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> Yet you say you can't set off earlier or ride slower, as you'd be late for work.
> Unlit section of what sounds more like a dirt track than road, you want to fly down it, knowing there's unsafe parts at present. Add in rain, followed by a bit of cold weather overnight, and if you're lucky there may just be extra water on parts. Ice if you're unlucky.



I have never said that I "want to fly down an unlit road". Hence the reason I have splashed out on three sets of lights to try and make the ride as safe as possible.

I've cycled in icy conditions, fog, snow, torrential rain, gales force wind and heavy traffic.

What is new to me is cycling in pitch darkness with zero ambient light from houses or other sources. The lights I have rigged up have pretty much solved that problem.


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## Andy in Germany (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I have never said that I "want to fly down an unlit road". Hence the reason I have splashed out on three sets of lights to try and make the ride as safe as possible.
> 
> I've cycled in icy conditions, fog, snow, torrential rain, gales force wind and heavy traffic.
> 
> What is new to me is cycling in pitch darkness with zero ambient light from houses or other sources. The lights I have rigged up have pretty much solved that problem.



From your description you'll be able to guide an air ambulance should the worst happen.

That said I once lit up a helicopter with my twin halogens...


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## Lovacott (15 Sep 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> From your description you'll be able to guide an air ambulance should the worst happen.
> That said I once lit up a helicopter with my twin halogens...



I'm being pretty careful with aim and the two rechargeables on the handlebar have pretty nifty mounts which allow a fair bit of swivel on the fly.

I'm only lighting up my side of the road and both lights are slanted down much like a car on low beam. The dynamo light is mounted over the wheel and is German certified for on road use. On my initial half mile out of town to get into the lanes, I only use the dynamo light. Most days, I see no traffic at all once I'm on the lanes. As I said earlier, it was pitch black this morning due to heavy cloud cover and the lighting rig worked well.

I'm pleased.


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## JhnBssll (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm being pretty careful with aim and the two rechargeables on the handlebar have pretty nifty mounts which allow a fair bit of swivel on the fly.
> 
> I'm only lighting up my side of the road and both lights are slanted down much like a car on low beam. The dynamo light is mounted over the wheel and is German certified for on road use. On my initial half mile out of town to get into the lanes, I only use the dynamo light. Most days, I see no traffic at all once I'm on the lanes. As I said earlier, it was pitch black this morning due to heavy cloud cover and the lighting rig worked well.
> 
> I'm pleased.



Sounds like you've got your setup nicely sorted - all that's left now is to have fun and take care


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## Andy in Germany (15 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm being pretty careful with aim and the two rechargeables on the handlebar have pretty nifty mounts which allow a fair bit of swivel on the fly.
> 
> I'm only lighting up my side of the road and both lights are slanted down much like a car on low beam. The dynamo light is mounted over the wheel and is German certified for on road use. On my initial half mile out of town to get into the lanes, I only use the dynamo light. Most days, I see no traffic at all once I'm on the lanes. As I said earlier, it was pitch black this morning due to heavy cloud cover and the lighting rig worked well.
> 
> I'm pleased.



Dynamo systems are theoretically mandatory here, so you'll find a lot of systems are German.

To be fair the helicopter was shining a spotlight on me, so I returned the favour.


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## steve292 (15 Sep 2020)

Here's my full commuting set up for what it's worth


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## cyberknight (16 Sep 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> From your description you'll be able to guide an air ambulance should the worst happen.
> 
> That said I once lit up a helicopter with my twin halogens...


Land a plane with those lights is what some have Said to me


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## fossyant (16 Sep 2020)

steve292 said:


> Here's my full commuting set up for what it's worth
> 
> View attachment 547424
> 
> ...



Need a new battery for my rear C&B Seen light - front still holding out well. Great lights.


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## lazybloke (16 Sep 2020)

MontyVeda said:


> Keep a mental map *of where you notice the frost developing too*... for me it was a concern around the *lower parts* of my ride, in the valleys and on bridges


Garmins and similar devices can read and display air emperature, or you can look at the data later eg on the Analysis page on Strava.

However, you can feel the cold part of the ride.
They are typically where the road has a low point between fields.
The cold air forms, then sinks & settles into the dips on the road. Depending on humidty, mist may also form.


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## classic33 (16 Sep 2020)

I've hit fog when riding up a slope with less than a 15 foot height difference. Go back 30 yards and I was clear of it. Stayed on the same road and came out of it when the road started downhill again.

From clear to not being able to see the footpath on the other side in such a short distance.


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

steve292 said:


> Here's my full commuting set up for what it's worth



I have a similar set up but with cheaper lights and a mobile phone holder adapted by connecting a car windscreen suction holder to a handlebar reflector mount. I wear a work supplied Hi Viz vest over my tee shirt to complete the look (I have a hi viz jacket but it's too bloody warm to wear it at the moment).







When I was commuting in London (over 20 years ago), I only had lights to make me road legal and there wasn't one stretch where I actually needed them to see where I was going. This business of riding in the pitch black is brand new to me and yesterday I discovered one of the disadvantages.

As I rode down the lanes alongside the hedgerows, my lights became a magnet for every insect within a hundred yards of me. I arrived at work with my sweaty face full of gnats and tiny moths. Hopefully, it's just the time of year (with it still being relatively warm etc.)? 

Yesterday afternoon (5pm) I had to use the lights on the way home because a pea soup of a Devon mist came rolling in off the sea about ten minutes into my commute and visibility was down to about 30 yards. All in, the rechargeable lights were on full power for 1 hour 50 minutes yesterday and were still showing nearly full charge when I got home which I think is pretty good. I'll have to see what they are like in two or three months time.


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

lazybloke said:


> Garmins and similar devices can read and display air emperature, or you can look at the data later eg on the Analysis page on Strava.
> However, you can feel the cold part of the ride.
> They are typically where the road has a low point between fields.
> The cold air forms, then sinks & settles into the dips on the road. Depending on humidty, mist may also form.



I cycle from one river valley to another on the other side of a 422 foot peak and the air temperature changes are very noticeable. I'm at the highest point of my commute 15 minutes in and for the next 20 minutes or so I am skirting along the top within an elevation range of only about 40 feet. The last 20 minutes of my ride is mainly a descent and I am heading further away from the sea at the same time. There is a very sharp drop in temperature at the same point in the ride every day which was noticeable even in the middle of the summer. I've set off without needing gloves and had to put them on half way due to numb fingers. The fog I hit yesterday was thickest in areas above 100 feet elevation and gradually eased as I descended. 

I can see a definite pattern in the climate along my route and it will be interesting to see how it pans out in the winter months.


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## steve292 (16 Sep 2020)

I don't commute that often as I work 12 hour shifts, with 3 periods a year of 5 weeks each on 8 til 4 office days, and it's during this time I try to ride 3 days a week. It's 28 ish miles each way,mainly flat and on a mix of unlit gravel track, rural single lane roads, urban lit areas and some A roads so I have over time slowly replaced the cheap stuff I started with with something better, although I used to buy a chinese retina burner and replace it every year.  @fossyant is correct the C& B seen lights are very good.The camera is there for my own geekyness really, although in three years I have reported one driver.

My Commute Steve292's trundle to work


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## steve292 (16 Sep 2020)

Quadlock

If you can stretch to one of them, they are very good, and weatherproof to a large extent with the appropriate cover


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> Dynamo systems are theoretically mandatory here, so you'll find a lot of systems are German.
> To be fair the helicopter was shining a spotlight on me, so I returned the favour.



I'm toying with the idea of doubling up on my dynamo lights because I am sure that the dynamo is generating a lot more power than the lights are using. They are at full brightness when I'm pottering along at only a few miles per hour so it seems a shame to not use the additional energy my legs are generating. Plus, the dynamo has a spare pair of wiring slots. I could then lose one of the re-chargeable lights (use it simply as an emergency backup).

Not sure if it will work though?


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## Andy in Germany (16 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm toying with the idea of doubling up on my dynamo lights because I am sure that the dynamo is generating a lot more power than the lights are using. They are at full brightness when I'm pottering along at only a few miles per hour so it seems a shame to not use the additional energy my legs are generating. Plus, the dynamo has a spare pair of wiring slots. I could then lose one of the re-chargeable lights (use it simply as an emergency backup).
> 
> Not sure if it will work though?



I wondered that myself as I have a lamp fixing point on my luggage rack, but in the conditions I ride I fortunately don't need to worry too much about traffic.


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

Andy in Germany said:


> I wondered that myself as I have a lamp fixing point on my luggage rack, but in the conditions I ride I fortunately don't need to worry too much about traffic.



The way I see it, is that a bottle dynamo capable of running incandescent bulbs front and back should be able to manage more than a couple of LED's front and back?

My old dynamo (years and years ago) needed a fair bit of pace on the bike to hit full output but my current lights are fully lit just with me wheeling the bike along at walking pace (just tried it now).

Shitty ride in this morning. Pitch black and heavy fog so I arrived in soaked through to the skin. Saw a magnificent stag though in a field about half a mile out from work.


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## si_c (16 Sep 2020)

I think you've got enough already on the lights front to be honest, a dynamo light and two reasonably powerful battery powered lamps is more than sufficient. I'd suggest going for a ride out and back on your commute after dark in the evening - say around 9-10pm so you can experience the full run in the dark.

I don't think you have any need to improve or change your equipment, you just need to build confidence.


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

si_c said:


> I think you've got enough already on the lights front to be honest, a dynamo light and two reasonably powerful battery powered lamps is more than sufficient.



I'm more than happy with the level of lighting I have but I'm thinking of doubling up on the Dynamo lights and dumping one of the re-chargeables (keeping it as a spare). I figure that as I'm already generating the power with my legs, I might as well use it?

I did most of the run in this morning in the dark and it went well (it was also quite foggy as well).


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## si_c (16 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm more than happy with the level of lighting I have but I'm thinking of doubling up on the Dynamo lights and dumping one of the re-chargeables (keeping it as a spare). I figure that as I'm already generating the power with my legs, I might as well use it?
> 
> I did most of the run in this morning in the dark and it went well (it was also quite foggy as well).


Doubling up on the dynamo lights will just make them half as bright.


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## cougie uk (16 Sep 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> On a rural route you can place small reflective markers on trees etc to highlight particular hazards.



There's a Sustrans Route fairly close to me that I've done a couple of night rides on. Always surprised me that they use grey steel gates to stop motorbikes getting on. No reflectives. No hi Viz.


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## MichaelW2 (16 Sep 2020)

si_c said:


> Doubling up on the dynamo lights will just make them half as bright.


Or last half as long ...


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## cougie uk (16 Sep 2020)

Oh one thing I found useful at night. 

Either take a head torch with you or put a torch on your helmet. 

If you have a mechanical you can't easily hold a torch and do the bits you need to.


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## classic33 (16 Sep 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> Or last half as long ...


There's no battery, you're supplying the power, albeit indirectly.


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

si_c said:


> Doubling up on the dynamo lights will just make them half as bright.


That's what I'm not sure about when it comes to LED bike lights. 

I know it doesn't work with incandescent bulbs but with my LED dynamo front light, it's at full brightness (front and rear) from just pushing the bike along the path. So when I am actually riding the bike, there must be some spare capacity?


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## si_c (16 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> That's what I'm not sure about when it comes to LED bike lights.
> 
> I know it doesn't work with incandescent bulbs but with my LED dynamo front light, it's at full brightness (front and rear) from just pushing the bike along the path. So when I am actually riding the bike, there must be some spare capacity?



Dynamos are designed to output 6v at a 0.5A and lights follow the same specifications. Adding an additional light reduces the current available across both circuits by half so for the lamps so they will run at half brightness regardless of how much of fast you turn the wheels as the dynamo increases the voltage available not the current.

This is my understanding of how the circuits work.


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## Lovacott (16 Sep 2020)

si_c said:


> Dynamos are designed to output 6v at a 0.5A and lights follow the same specifications. Adding an additional light reduces the current available across both circuits by half so for the lamps so they will run at half brightness regardless of how much of fast you turn the wheels as the dynamo increases the voltage available not the current.
> This is my understanding of how the circuits work.



Another option I have is to go for a higher output front light then. The current one is 30 lux but I see that there are 70 lux available.


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## JhnBssll (16 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Another option I have is to go for a higher output front light then. The current one is 30 lux but I see that there are 70 lux available.



The Busch & Muller IQ-X i have on my commuter is 100 lux


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## wajc (16 Sep 2020)

JhnBssll said:


> The Busch & Muller IQ-X i have on my commuter is 100 lux



Not wishing to play Top Trumps but I have one of these rated at 150 Lux which is an absolute awesome amount of light on the road. 

Busch and Muller Ixon space


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## hennbell (16 Sep 2020)

With experience you will embrace the dark. The lights available now are so bright and eye catching that no one can claim I did not see you.
I even ride with rear lights in the summer. I don't have flashing front lights for daytime use.


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## lazybloke (17 Sep 2020)

hennbell said:


> With experience you will *embrace the dark*.


You can leave work under a colourful sunset, and less than an hour later be enjoying a proper night sky. 
Oh yes, embrace the dark.


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## classic33 (17 Sep 2020)

lazybloke said:


> You can leave work under a colourful sunset, and less than an hour later be enjoying a proper night sky.
> Oh yes, embrace the dark.


Or be cycling out of the darkness, into the sunrise.


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## Lovacott (17 Sep 2020)

hennbell said:


> With experience you will embrace the dark. The lights available now are so bright and eye catching that no one can claim I did not see you.
> I even ride with rear lights in the summer. I don't have flashing front lights for daytime use.


I'm well impressed with the rear dynamo light. I have a rack on the bike so I bought a Nean rack mount light which is 150mm wide. It chucks back a really clear red light on a par with what you'd get from a motorbike rear set up.

I also have two re-chargeable LEDS on the back as well. I have them set to solid.

I'm on the fence about flashing rear lights. On the one hand, they make you very visible but on the other, they can be confusing for drivers (is it a breakdown lorry half a mile away or is it a bike ten yards in front of you?).

But I agree, that with a combination of good lights and Hi Viz clothing, nobody could ever claim that they didn't see you.


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## Lovacott (17 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> Or be cycling out of the darkness, into the sunrise.


My first month of commuting I was leaving just as it was getting light and my ride is towards the east. Some stretches I was being completely blinded by the rising sun. I will have the reverse in about a month when I will be cycling home into the setting sun. After that it will be darkness both ways until March.


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## matticus (17 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm on the fence about flashing rear lights. On the one hand, they make you very visible but on the other, they can be confusing for drivers (is it a breakdown lorry half a mile away or is it a bike ten yards in front of you?).


Once it is too dark to see the bike itself, flashing is a disaster; partly for the reason you say.
And they totally fail my 4th Golden Rule:
"What if everyone used them?"

(Can you imagine if drivers started using flashing lights?!? )


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## cougie uk (17 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I'm well impressed with the rear dynamo light. I have a rack on the bike so I bought a Nean rack mount light which is 150mm wide. It chucks back a really clear red light on a par with what you'd get from a motorbike rear set up.
> 
> I also have two re-chargeable LEDS on the back as well. I have them set to solid.
> 
> ...




Nothing says cyclist more than something reflective on the pedals or feet or lower legs. That movement is very distinctive.


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## RichardB (17 Sep 2020)

Before a job change, I commuted 13 miles each way, pitch dark country lanes. I agree, the prospect was a bit daunting and I thought about it a lot before the first day. As with most things, once you're doing it, it is far less scary. In fact, I started enjoying it almost immediately and now I don't do it any more I miss it. There's something very wonderful about riding silently along a dark country lane with just the occasional moo of an unseen cow to keep you company. I had a tiny Moon Meteor front light which was easily good enough for 20 mph in the dark, and I just kept the speed sensible on the downhills. As others have said, hi-viz is brilliant (both senses) after dark, especially if you have Scotchlite reflective strips. Pretty sure you could see my Altura jacket from Mars. Might go out for an hour after dark tonight, now I think about it.


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## Milkfloat (17 Sep 2020)

For rear lights when I use multiple then I have one flashing and one steady. Flashing as an alert and steady for others to judge distance. When using just one rear it is set to flashing during daylight and solid in the dark.


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## RichardB (17 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Maybe something to do with the point loading on the tyres?



Indeed. I had a Citroen 2CV which was brilliant in snow for this very reason. Large diameter, narrow tyres bite down into the snow in a way that wide tyres can't. It's why the Land Rover drivers who are serious about off-roiad performance all have the old-fashioned narrow tyres. The wide, butch, gnarly ones that stick out beyond the arches are strictly for Sainsbury's car park.


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## hennbell (17 Sep 2020)

I always use a flashing rear red light but in the darkest of winter I add a blue one too, very eye catching.

You still get people who claim it was dark and they did not see you.


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## classic33 (17 Sep 2020)

hennbell said:


> I always use a flashing rear red light but in the darkest of winter I add a blue one too, very eye catching.
> 
> You still get people who claim it was dark and they did not see you.


I've used a strobe light mounted in the mesh pocket of the rucksack. 
Got one driver wondering what it was he was seeing so he took a diversion to catch up and see.


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## RichardB (17 Sep 2020)

hennbell said:


> I always use a flashing rear red light but in the darkest of winter I add a blue one too, very eye catching.



Just don't present yourself for an MoT like that. You'd fail 

Now you mention it, last year I bought a set of little flashing lights off ebay to attach to the dog's collar when I walk him in the dark. There's a blue and red, and a yellow and a green too - might try those hanging off my saddlebag.


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## Lovacott (18 Sep 2020)

classic33 said:


> I've used a strobe light mounted in the mesh pocket of the rucksack.
> Got one driver wondering what it was he was seeing so he took a diversion to catch up and see.


I also drive and in the pitch dark and a flashing light on a bike ahead can cause confusion because it's hard to tell what it is you are seeing. Is it just in front of you and small or is it half a mile away and large?

What it does do though, is make you think and maybe proceed with a bit more caution so I suppose it's done its job.

One thing I do have which I wouldn't be without, is a bar end mirror on the right hand end of my handlebars. Never used a mirror on a bike before but I bought one earlier in the year and now I consider it an essential bit of kit. It's a bit of a pain keeping it aligned as it's in an easy to knock position especially when taking the bike though the door, but it saves me a lot of neck craning.


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## MrGrumpy (18 Sep 2020)

First commute in the dark this morning since winter and it’s the best time. Love the dark, helps when it’s dry :-) though.


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## Lovacott (18 Sep 2020)

MrGrumpy said:


> First commute in the dark this morning since winter and it’s the best time. Love the dark, helps when it’s dry :-) though.


I encountered a few cars (three) on the way along the dark lanes and it's miles better in the dark. I could see them coming a good half a minute or so before they reached me from the other side of blind bends and I was able to get into farm gates or passing places in good time. They could also see me.


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## mjr (18 Sep 2020)

cougie uk said:


> There's a Sustrans Route fairly close to me that I've done a couple of night rides on. Always surprised me that they use grey steel gates to stop motorbikes getting on. No reflectives. No hi Viz.


Dumb. Against current guidance. Please report it as needing upgrade to current standards at www.fixmystreet.com


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## Lovacott (20 Sep 2020)

I've just finished installing my upgraded bottle dynamo. I fitted an Axa Trio last week (cost £13.50) and although it works really well, it made a fair bit of a high pitched whining noise which sort of ruined the early morning peace and quiet of the country lanes.

The replacement is an Axa HR which cost £25.50 and offers up lower resistance for the same power output and is about 50% quieter than the cheaper version. It also has a replaceable rubber roller instead of a metal or nylon one so less wear on the tyre wall. Very good bit of kit and it is as smooth as the advertising blurb claimed.

I'll either keep the cheaper one as a spare or fit it to my daughters bike to use where she is studying at Uni.


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## ManiaMuse (21 Sep 2020)

I hate it as well. I leave in the morning at 7:50 and set off home at 17:30 so by darkest winter it is dark both ways.

The worst bit I find is the next month or so, the gradual realisation that you are not going to see the sun again in the evenings for 4-5 months. And then the changing clocks when it is just like someone has turned a light switch off in the evenings.

I am quite anxious during the first few weeks of dark comminuting. Just take it slow, be hyper cautious when filtering/going past side roads and junctions/going past parked cars/going down potholed streets. As for weather, thankfully ice isn't too much of a problem in the UK's mild winter but do check the forecasts to know when it has been sub zero overnight, sometimes frozen puddles aren't that obvious on the road. For snow just write the commute off and take public transport (unless you live in Scotland or somewhere where it is more frequent).

Don't get too attached to yellow hi-vis, in reality it is the reflective strips which are more visible in car headlights.

For lights I find having a pair of front lights and pair of rear lights gives me peace of mind. One on constant and the other on flashing/pulse. Rechargeable are better, just make it a habit to charge them during the day at work. And Chuck a cheapo light in your bag as a backup.


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## MrGrumpy (21 Sep 2020)

It’s the best time ! Love the dark commutes. Once you hit December that’s as dark as it gets and it’s starts getting lighter again! Much too look forward to . Mind you I’m an early starter, leaving about 6am ish .

only thing I don’t like is the ice !!! That’s a pain and discussed plenty times elsewhere.


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## al78 (19 Oct 2020)

I used to commute 10 miles mostly on tree lined country lanes and it was dark coming home for half the year. A decent set of lights will help you avoid road defects and debris. The worst element I found was the glare from oncoming t**ts that come round corners on full beam. The way to mitigate dazzling is to look down and to the kerb just before the car comes round the corner, similarly when approaching road summits and something is coming up the hill from the opposite direction.


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## Drago (19 Oct 2020)

When I used to w...wo...work (I can hardly bring myself to say the word) the bulk of my commute was unlit country roads. Nothing a good set of lights doesnt handle with aplomb.


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## Richard A Thackeray (1 Nov 2020)

Tomorrow will be my first dark 'rush hour' (if we really have one around here) since last winter
I'm on a 09:00 - 18:00 this week (Mon-Fri)


My CGR has;
4 lights on rear (2 x constant, 1x 'pulse', 1 x 'flash')
4 lights on 'bars (1 x constant, 2 x flash - at different rates/1 x 'spotlamp'...)
There's also 4 of the little (Lidl specials) silicone case/strap lights on helmet

Top seat-pin; flash
Lower seat-pi; constant
R/h seat-stay; constant
L/h seat-stay; pulse






Cateyes are the two 'flash
White 'Smart'(?) is constant
Magic-Shine 828 is the spot-light (& also for an unlit stretch)













Reflective front & rear mud-flaps (from 'Raw', pricey, but good!!)
An extra reflector on the rear 'flap (from my old collection of trailer spares)
Schwalbe Marathons, with the reflective banding
Spoke reflectors
















I've already dug out my (Boardman) '360' jacket - by that, I mean one of those that are coated in the beading that makes up the stripes on a Hi-viz jacket
Just phone-flash







This illustrates what's required






Sods Law

Some will use it all to judge how close they can drive!!

Oh!
I have this to (eventually) send for repair
A friend gave it to me, as the switch is broken (R800)


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## lazybloke (1 Nov 2020)

I predict a week of UFO sightings in Wakefield


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## mjr (1 Nov 2020)

I love that graphic showing clothing is irrelevant if you have reflectors. A minimum 4 candles lights is visible 500-600m IIRC.


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## lazybloke (1 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> I love that graphic showing clothing is irrelevant if you have reflectors. A minimum 4 candles lights is visible 500-600m IIRC.


In ideal conditions maybe, but surely that assumes clear lines of sight, reasonable angles of incidence , no dazzling by other light sources, etc.

In the real world, there are all manner of circumstances that reduce your conspicuity. Can't say I'd ever festoon myself with quite as many lights as above, but I strongly believe good lighting helps.

Obviously it does little to protect you against a drunk, or a driver who is looking down at their phone, etc, but there are other risks that lights do reduce to some degree.


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## mjr (1 Nov 2020)

lazybloke said:


> In ideal conditions maybe, but surely that assumes clear lines of sight, reasonable angles of incidence , no dazzling by other light sources, etc.


Well, obviously, but if you are around a blind bend or some other selfish cyclist is dazzling drivers, your clothing is irrelevant as well as your lights anyway.



> Obviously it does little to protect you against a drunk, or a driver who is looking down at their phone, etc, but there are other risks that lights do reduce to some degree.


Only riding into shoot you can't see. Other than that, once you have basic lighting and reflectors, making yourself look less human and more roadsign is not helpful for being treated appropriately IME.


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## Lovacott (1 Nov 2020)

lazybloke said:


> In the real world, there are all manner of circumstances that reduce your conspicuity. Can't say I'd ever festoon myself with quite as many lights as above, but I strongly believe good lighting helps.


I have three front lights and three rear.

One on the front and back are dynamo lights which I run for the whole trip. Two on the front are LED rechargeables which I use on the lanes.

I turn off the LED's on the front when I start to get into civilisation because I basically don't need them.

The dynamo rear light is a good size and runs on for five minutes or so when stopped once the capacitor has built up a bit of charge.

I bought some decent reflective tape which I have fitted to the frame and forks for visibility from the side. 

I have a bar end mirror so that I can see anything approaching from behind in the lanes, and I take a "non confrontational" approach by pulling into the nearest farm gate or passing place to let traffic come past me (I see very few cars until the last mile of my journey home).

Once I am in town, I am moving with the traffic (rush hour) so nobody tries to overtake me anyway.

There is one 400 yard stretch of fast A road that I use where I have had a few close passes during the summer, but this week in the dark, people seem to be giving me a wider berth. I assume it's because it's harder for them to judge the size of the bike in the dark so they either cross over to the other side of the road to overtake or slow down and stay behind me.

When I drive, it never bothers me if a cyclist is well lit up and wearing loads of Hi Viz. It does piss me off when you see a cyclist with nothing but a tiny flashing LED and dark clothing, especially in the rain.


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## mjr (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> When I drive, it never bothers me if a cyclist is well lit up and wearing loads of Hi Viz.


Why not? The selfish nobber is trying to distract drivers into looking at them when they could be looking at you, plus helping to excuse drivers who say "SMIDSY but you should be dressed like that cyclist over there"


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## Ming the Merciless (1 Nov 2020)

MichaelW2 said:


> Or last half as long ...



Which means you rode your commute twice as fast!🤪


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## SkipdiverJohn (1 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> The selfish nobber is trying to distract drivers into looking at them when they could be looking at you, plus helping to excuse drivers who say "SMIDSY but you should be dressed like that cyclist over there"



Maybe because they'd rather a driver crashed into *you*, rather than them.
You always seem to take the attitude that anything that happens must be the motorists fault, and that cyclists have little if any responsibility for their own safety or to make themselves as visible as possible. I see loads of idiotic badly lit or completely unlit cycling on a daily basis, and in the event of such a cyclist getting taken out by a driver, I would say they had it coming to them.


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## kingrollo (1 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Maybe because they'd rather a driver crashed into *you*, rather than them.
> You always seem to take the attitude that anything that happens must be the motorists fault, and that cyclists have little if any responsibility for their own safety or to make themselves as visible as possible. I see loads of idiotic badly lit or completely unlit cycling on a daily basis, and in the event of such a cyclist getting taken out by a driver, I would say they had it coming to them.



Is there anything in this world you approve of - you seem to despise everyone and everything


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## mjr (1 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> You always seem to take the attitude that anything that happens must be the motorists fault, and that cyclists have little if any responsibility for their own safety or to make themselves as visible as possible.


You always seem to make stuff up about other people when you have no credible argument.

There is no "as visible as possible". You're either visible or not and if your bike is lit normally, your clothes are almost irrelevant.


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## HMS_Dave (1 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Maybe because they'd rather a driver crashed into *you*, rather than them.
> You always seem to take the attitude that anything that happens must be the motorists fault, and that cyclists have little if any responsibility for their own safety or to make themselves as visible as possible. I see loads of idiotic badly lit or completely unlit cycling on a daily basis, and in the event of such a cyclist getting taken out by a driver, I would say they had it coming to them.


That's a nonsense argument. If a bloke walk around with a sign saying "punch me as hard as you can in the face" would you?
Even if a cyclist is hit and they had no lights, i think the motorist should still be breathalyzed and testing for drugs, legality and competency. Even in the pitch black i see Pedestrians, Cats, Foxes, Deer, even Insects. A cyclist should have correct PPE, but they're aren't invisible without!


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## Lovacott (1 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Maybe because they'd rather a driver crashed into *you*, rather than them.
> You always seem to take the attitude that anything that happens must be the motorists fault, and that cyclists have little if any responsibility for their own safety or to make themselves as visible as possible. I see loads of idiotic badly lit or completely unlit cycling on a daily basis, and in the event of such a cyclist getting taken out by a driver, I would say they had it coming to them.



Anyone who drives a car will understand how hard it is to see anything though a sheet of glass in the pitch black when it is being bombarded with rain and the inside is steaming up quicker than the demister setting on your fan can handle.

If other cyclists want to prove a point by being minimalist in their visibility, they can exclude me from their campaign.

I'd rather look like a twat and get home alive than look dead cool.


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## HMS_Dave (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> *Anyone who drives a car will understand how hard it is to see anything though a sheet of glass in the pitch black when it is being bombarded with rain and the inside is steaming up quicker than the demister setting on your fan can handle.*
> 
> If other cyclists want to prove a point by being minimalist in their visibility, they can exclude me from their campaign.
> 
> I'd rather look like a twat and get home alive than look dead cool.



Then you pull over/adjust your speed to cope. That is a terrible excuse quite frankly and would be and offence namely "driving without due care and attention". Ive driven for many years and have no difficulty with this concept and touch wood ive never driven over any pedestrian or animal let alone a fellow road user...


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## Lovacott (1 Nov 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> Then you pull over/adjust your speed to cope. That is a terrible excuse quite frankly and would be and offence namely "driving without due care and attention"



But the simple fact is that a minority of people do drive that way.

They set off late for work, start driving before the demister has kicked in, only scrape the ice off the square foot of windscreen right in front of their eyes. Maybe their alarm didn't go off and they have only been awake for five minutes.

It's no good your family proving that a driver killed you because he wasn't paying enough attention. It won't bring you back.

In real life, there are a minority who don't give a shoot about anything. There are people who drink drive, there are people who drug drive. There are people who have never driven before who steal cars and take them for joyrides.

Why do you have such a downer on responsible cyclists trying to mitigate risk?

It doesn't make any sense.


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## SkipdiverJohn (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Anyone who drives a car will understand how hard it is to see anything though a sheet of glass in the pitch black when it is being bombarded with rain and the inside is steaming up quicker than the demister setting on your fan can handle.



Exactly, and that's without considering that buildings, trees, and even parked vehicles can throw shadows across a road that can conceal unlit road users until the last second. Wet roads can be shiny with reflected light which further reduces visibility. Then you have to consider a driver may not be familiar with the area or the road layout. They might be looking for a specific house number on a street or scanning for a road they need to turn into, or might be looking at a road sign. No-one drives with their eyes on their direction of travel all the time, as you need to be looking around at other things too. 
A girl I know jaywalked into a road between two parked high roof vans at night, whilst looking at her phone instead of where she was going. Next thing she's in hospital with a fractured skull and other injuries that looked like she'd done twelve rounds with Mike Tyson in the ring. Entirely her fault, and no action taken against the driver who hit her. She was totally invisible until the last second by which time it was too late. The vehicle that hit her weighed about 12 tons and she was extremely lucky she got thrown away from it rather than under it by the impact.


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## roley poley (1 Nov 2020)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Just phone-flash
> View attachment 555738
> 
> once again I find myself admiring the cut of your cloth choosing myself to unzip the sweaty gilet section and wear the sleeves only..


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## HMS_Dave (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> But the simple fact is that a minority of people do drive that way.
> 
> They set off late for work, start driving before the demister has kicked in, only scrape the ice off the square foot of windscreen right in front of their eyes. Maybe their alarm didn't go off and they have only been awake for five minutes.
> 
> ...


I never said anything about cyclists trying to mitigate risks. It is actually the motorists it appears to be mitigating responsibility here. This post further confirms this...


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## HMS_Dave (1 Nov 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Exactly, and that's without considering that buildings, trees, and even parked vehicles can throw shadows across a road that can conceal unlit road users until the last second. Wet roads can be shiny with reflected light which further reduces visibility. Then you have to consider a driver may not be familiar with the area or the road layout. They might be looking for a specific house number on a street or scanning for a road they need to turn into, or might be looking at a road sign. No-one drives with their eyes on their direction of travel all the time, as you need to be looking around at other things too.
> A girl I know jaywalked into a road between two parked high roof vans at night, whilst looking at her phone instead of where she was going. Next thing she's in hospital with a fractured skull and other injuries that looked like she'd done twelve rounds with Mike Tyson in the ring. Entirely her fault, and no action taken against the driver who hit her. She was totally invisible until the last second by which time it was too late. The vehicle that hit her weighed about 12 tons and she was extremely lucky she got thrown away from it rather than under it by the impact.


This is NOTHING we didn't already know. We are not trying to rival the theory test here. But if you hit anybody at 10pm and then tell the police that "you were scanning house numbers" do you hand on heart think that will fly? You are if nothing else admitting you are driving without due care and attention... This is not about what people "normally" do or whatever because frankly, anybody who drives like this is lucky and those around them are lucky, until they day they are no longer... Im not suggesting and haven't suggested cyclists wear ninja outfits, cyclist should be as visible as possible and take action. But misty windscreens and looking for house numbers are frankly pathetic excuses for anything and i doubt if any other road user was dressed in nothing but light bulbs it would help them...


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## Lovacott (1 Nov 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> I never said anything about cyclists trying to mitigate risks. It is actually the motorists it appears to be mitigating responsibility here. This post further confirms this...


You seem to be of the mindset that motorists and cyclists are different species at war with each other?

I consider myself to be neither (as will the majority of motorists and cyclists).

Everyone I know has a bike and a car. Some have bikes, cars and motorbikes.

One of the blokes I work with has a helicopter, surfboard, boat, two bikes, three cars and a vintage motorbike.

Every day, all of us are pedestrians.

Risk mitigation is about doing everything reasonably practical to avoid the worst case scenarios which will never go away (the drunk driver, the half asleep driver, the car thief, the fat slob who hates cyclists).

So when it comes to choosing a rain jacket, a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk whereas a black hoodie won't.

A bit of reflective tape on the crossbar will get you seen maybe a second earlier. A couple of extra lights here and there won't hurt either.

I rather not end up in the position of arguing over the technicalities of whose fault it was that I ended up in a wheelchair.


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## HMS_Dave (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> *Risk mitigation is about doing everything reasonably practical to avoid the worst case scenarios which will never go away (the drunk driver, the half asleep driver, the car thief, the fat slob who hates cyclists).
> 
> So when it comes to choosing a rain jacket, a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk whereas a black hoodie won't.*
> 
> ...



You pretend not to be biased, but then you seem to think its OK to drive with steamed up windows. This is why i said about motorist mitigating responsibility above. A cyclists must do EVERYTHING in their power to avoid serious injury and death, which you have a point of course, but then think its fine to drive with steamed up windows and it isn't. There are many examples but i will link you one here from a quick search https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/16205120.steamed-window-blamed-collision/ So why is it OK then that a motorist can shirk their road safety responsibilities also? Yes, i know a cyclist is the one that is going to end up maimed or killed, again this is not new, everyone knows this. But road safety is EVERYONES responsibility that is the point that i am trying to make. It's no use being dressed up as a big flashing christmas tree, if the donkey driver is driving steamed up, looking for his mistresses address...


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## Lovacott (1 Nov 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> You pretend not to be biased, but then you seem to think its OK to drive with steamed up windows.



Link?


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## HMS_Dave (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Link?


No need to link. Page 10 and 11 has the information available to decipher. The rhetoric is quite clear.


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## classic33 (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Anyone who drives a car will understand how hard it is to see anything though a sheet of glass in the pitch black when it is being bombarded with rain and the inside is steaming up quicker than the demister setting on your fan can handle.
> 
> If other cyclists want to prove a point by being minimalist in their visibility, they can exclude me from their campaign.
> 
> I'd rather look like a twat and get home alive than look dead cool.


I've commuted lit up like a Christmas tree, had a 500,000 candlepower front light(homemade), worn full Hi-Vis, and used a strobe light as you'd see on an alarm box.

None of them have guaranteed that I'd be seen, nor have I ever expected them to.

However, if a cyclist were to say that they couldn't see the road in front of them clearly, they'd be told to either stop or slow down. Why should the same response to a car driver be any different?


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## mjr (1 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> So when it comes to choosing a rain jacket, a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk whereas a black hoodie won't.


And as mentioned above, decent lights render the clothing irrelevant.



> I rather not end up in the position of arguing over the technicalities of whose fault it was that I ended up in a wheelchair.


And I would also rather not be helping put other cyclists in that position by arguing that cyclists should take irrelevant measures to reduce the risk posed by drivers who frankly shouldn't be driving.

A key word in your post is "reasonable". It is not reasonable to expect all cyclists to only wear ugly clothes. Various governments in various countries have forced certain groups to wear certain clothes and it never ends well!


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## Lovacott (2 Nov 2020)

classic33 said:


> However, if a cyclist were to say that they couldn't see the road in front of them clearly, they'd be told to either stop or slow down. Why should the same response to a car driver be any different?


Exactly the same applies to car drivers. They should drive to the conditions and I've never said anything different. As I both cycle and drive, I am always on the lookout for cyclists and overtake them like I would overtake a car (by going to the other side of the road).

However, there will always be drivers who don't do that, so when I cycle, I do everything I can to mitigate risk.


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## Lovacott (2 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> A key word in your post is "reasonable". It is not reasonable to expect all cyclists to only wear ugly clothes.


I wear a yellow rain jacket with hi viz piping out of choice. Nobody expects me to, it isn't a law.


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## mjr (2 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I wear a yellow rain jacket with hi viz piping out of choice. Nobody expects me to, it isn't a law.


but by doing so, you help to build an expectation that we will. It's already in the highway code based on almost no evidence and definitely no consensus. It is not a long path from that to compulsion. It amazes me that so many work to ensure the code doesn't compel use of cycleways but so few oppose the dodgy clothing shoot in it.


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## Lovacott (2 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> but by doing so, you help to build an expectation that we will.


I've always worn light clothing on a bike because in my opinion, it's the safest thing to do.

I'm not about to start wearing dark clothing just to help someone else prove a point.

I'm not in a cycling versus driver war and I never will be because I both cycle and drive (as do the vast majority of cyclists).


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## mjr (2 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I've always worn light clothing on a bike because in my opinion, it's the safest thing to do.


Is that opinion rational?



> I'm not in a cycling versus driver war and I never will be because I both cycle and drive (as do the vast majority of cyclists).


As do I, so I'm not in a "cycling versus driving war" either. I'm not even in a war against selfish cyclists who attempt to distract drivers with their clothes. I just think they're a bad thing on many levels and should not be advocated.

Meanwhile, I feel drivers should take responsibility for driving to the conditions,unlike some on here who imply driving blind with misty windows should be expected.


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## RichardB (2 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Meanwhile, I feel drivers should take responsibility for driving to the conditions,



I don't think anyone here would disagree with that.



mjr said:


> unlike some on here who imply driving blind with misty windows should be expected.



"Should be expected", yes; that's not the same as "acceptable", and no one is saying that it is.


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## matticus (2 Nov 2020)

More than one party can have responsibilities, and more than one can be to blame in an accident.

If we remembered that, these threads would be a lot shorter!


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## Lovacott (2 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> Is that opinion rational?
> As do I, so I'm not in a "cycling versus driving war" either. I'm not even in a war against selfish cyclists who attempt to distract drivers with their clothes. I just think they're a bad thing on many levels and should not be advocated.
> Meanwhile, I feel drivers should take responsibility for driving to the conditions,unlike some on here who imply driving blind with misty windows should be expected.


Based on my own driving experience, I can see someone on a bike in bright clothing a hell of a lot earlier than someone in dark clothing.

Their bright clothing doesn't "distract me". Why would it?

And yes, I do expect some drivers to drive with misty windows, break speed limits, overtake too close or glance down at their mobiles.

It doesn't mean I condone such driving, quite the contrary.

If you want to ride around in night camouflage to prove a point, go knock yourself out mate.

I'm sticking with the Hi Viz.


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## weareHKR (2 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Based on my own driving experience, I can see someone on a bike in bright clothing a hell of a lot earlier than someone in dark clothing.
> Their bright clothing doesn't "distract me". Why would it?
> And yes, I do expect some drivers to drive with misty windows, break speed limits, overtake too close or glance down at their mobiles.
> It doesn't mean I condone such driving, quite the contrary.
> ...


+ 1


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## mjr (2 Nov 2020)

matticus said:


> More than one party can have responsibilities, and more than one can be to blame in an accident.
> 
> If we remembered that, these threads would be a lot shorter!


I don't think anyone has forgotten that. By posting at this point, are you implying that cyclists share the blame for their own injuries if they refuse to wear special clothes?



Lovacott said:


> Based on my own driving experience, I can see someone on a bike in bright clothing a hell of a lot earlier than someone in dark clothing.


Is that still true if the someone in dark clothing has full legally-sufficient lights on?

Does you seeing someone later translate into injuries anyway?

What do normal drivers do? What do average drivers do?



> Their bright clothing doesn't "distract me". Why would it?


To make you look at them "a hell of a lot earlier" than someone in ordinary clothes? It's pretty much the definition of distracting attention.



> [...] If you want to ride around in night camouflage to prove a point, go knock yourself out mate.


I'm not the one donning urban dazzle camouflage in some mistaken idea that it helps. I'm just riding in ordinary clothes, but have good lights, "doing everything reasonably practical to avoid the worst case" with different ideas to you of what is reasonable, practical and what actually works to avoid shoot. Pernicious evidence-free shoot like "a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk" must be rejected every time it pops up: clothes are essentially insignificant if you obey the lighting laws.



> I'm sticking with the Hi Viz.


I really don't think looking like a near-static roadworker is helpful for anyone, but we all make our own choices. It's the evangelising of slathering oneself in snake oil that I dislike.


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## classic33 (2 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Based on my own driving experience, I can see someone on a bike in bright clothing a hell of a lot earlier than someone in dark clothing.
> 
> Their bright clothing doesn't "distract me". Why would it?
> 
> ...


And under the wrong lighting, Saturn Yellow(The most common colour used) all but disappears. You're then left relying on the reflective material used.

You replace yours every 10 washes* I'll assume.

*3M recommendation.


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## weareHKR (2 Nov 2020)

Just wondering what's your thoughts are on other wearers of Hi-Visibility apparel are?
Started naming them but the list is endless tbh, all in the name of Safety!


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (2 Nov 2020)

weareHKR said:


> Just wondering what's your thoughts are on other wearers of Hi-Visibility apparel are?
> Started naming them but the list is endless tbh, all in the name of Safety!


Like the Blue Peter presenter on top of Battersea chimney one year in normal clothing, but in high viz and a hard hat as a news reader a few years later.

Nothing else changed, inc the distance from the ground


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## rockyroller (3 Nov 2020)

I like riding at night, just gotta watch out for the potholes! Since the covid hit last spring, I've been enjoying a certain off-road area near my home. I've been driving there w/ a bike rack, etc. But it's not "technically" open after sunset. It's super fun at night, super spooky too. Anyway, now that the driving/parking thing has expired I need to ride there. So it's back on the roads at night. I'm 1/2 looking forward to it & 1/2 apprehensive

on my road bike I have a headlight mounted on an accessory to help eliminate shadows from my cables. I have a rear facing light on my trunk rack. & also, I mount one on my left drop bar. it helps keep the passing cars from cutting back in front of me too soon. it actually does help get me a smidge more courtesy room. this pic is from a paved bike trail but it's what I had handy on my work computer


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## skudupnorth (3 Nov 2020)

Two Cateyes front and rear, one of each strobing and so far no issues


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## mjr (4 Nov 2020)

rockyroller said:


> I have a rear facing light on my trunk rack. & also, I mount one on my left drop bar. [...]


In the UK, a light on the handlebar end would need to be amber to be legal. A red light there would be visible from the front when turning, which is considered so confusing that it's banned.


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## rockyroller (4 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> In the UK, a light on the handlebar end would need to be amber to be legal. A red light there would be visible from the front when turning, which is considered so confusing that it's banned.


ah! interesting!


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## Lovacott (5 Nov 2020)

I left work last night just after five and about 15 minutes into my ride home, I'm going up this very long hill on a single track road. It was dark enough to need my two LED lights which I have set either side of the handlebar stem.

Up ahead about 200 yards, I see a 4WD coming towards me which stops and then reverses into a farm gateway. The road is wide enough for a car and bike to pass by each other at a squeeze so I'm surprised that this person has stopped to give way.

Not wanting to make them wait too long, I hit the pedals as hard as I could to get my speed up.

As I was about to pass the 4wd, I waved in appreciation and the woman driver wound down her window.

With a slightly annoyed look on her face and in her best Devonshire accent, she said "I thought you was a bleedin tractor!".


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## HMS_Dave (5 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I left work last night just after five and about 15 minutes into my ride home, I'm going up this very long hill on a single track road. It was dark enough to need my two LED lights which I have set either end side of the handlebar stem.
> 
> Up ahead about 200 yards, I see a 4WD coming towards me which stops and then reverses into a farm gateway. The road is wide enough for a car and bike to pass by each other at a squeeze so I'm surprised that this person has stopped to give way.
> 
> ...


I believe my kids would say "Seems Legit"


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## Mo1959 (5 Nov 2020)

I'm actually starting to enjoy riding in the dark and find drivers actually pass much wider than they do later in the day.


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## Lovacott (5 Nov 2020)

Mo1959 said:


> I'm actually starting to enjoy riding in the dark and find drivers actually pass much wider than they do later in the day.


Same here.

Close passes have disappeared since it got dark.

Drivers can't gauge distance as easily in the dark so tend to err on the side of caution.

Or, as in my case, they think I'm a "bleedin tractor".


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## rockyroller (5 Nov 2020)

I get to play with the commuters tonight. not on a road, but a paved commuter bikeway. there are some robust riders who are so fast even tho they don't look it. meaning some have upright bars & large panniers & dressed is suits, but those guys can fly & often blow my doors off. charging my light's battery now


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## Elybazza61 (5 Nov 2020)

On the X-Trail commuter it's a Supernova front and B&M rear powered by and SP dynamo hub augmented with Exposure Strada,Cat-Eye bar end rear lights and whatever extra rear light I have.

On the Kanzo it's Exposure Revo and Redeye again powered by a SP hub and a Hope R4+ front when needed and also with whatever extra rear lights.

New thing will run the Hope with a District rear for off road usage.


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## mjr (6 Nov 2020)

First shout of "dip your bloody light" of this winter by me today. Lit street, straight, no trees, closed to cars both ends : no ides why that nobber thought a few thousand lumens in the faces of oncoming riders would help anything. I prefer the unlit ninjas to that!


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Nov 2020)

Indeed too much light is a danger.


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## mjr (6 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> Same here.
> 
> Close passes have disappeared since it got dark.
> 
> ...


You half-jest but I do wonder if the increased number of e-bikes with good LED lights that move pretty quickly, especially acceleration to 16mph, has increased driver caution in overtaking any bike with good LED lights. Or maybe it's how many more people cycled during lockdown and disliked the bad driving of remaining motorists. I think I've yet to suffer a close pass at night this winter, which feels unusual.


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## Lovacott (6 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> You half-jest but I do wonder if the increased number of e-bikes with good LED lights that move pretty quickly, especially acceleration to 16mph, has increased driver caution in overtaking any bike with good LED lights. Or maybe it's how many more people cycled during lockdown and disliked the bad driving of remaining motorists. I think I've yet to suffer a close pass at night this winter, which feels unusual.


My approach to overtaking a bike is to treat it the same as I would any other vehicle.

If there is nothing coming the other way, I move to the other side of the road and overtake.

If there is something coming, I wait behind the bike until the road is clear. I would say that the majority of drivers do the same (maybe 90%).

Close passes are where drivers ignore this rule and try and squeeze past you when there is oncoming traffic.

The way I deal with this is by moving out to the centre of the lane to prevent the overtake until the road ahead is clear of oncoming traffic. If someone does try to squeeze past me, I have room to move to the left.

It happened to me a few times during daylight but it hasn't happened since it got darker. My only answer to this is that it's harder to judge a close pass in the dark and the driver won't take the risk?


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## mjr (6 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> The way I deal with this is by moving out to the centre of the lane to prevent the overtake until the road ahead is clear of oncoming traffic. If someone does try to squeeze past me, I have room to move to the left.
> 
> It happened to me a few times during daylight but it hasn't happened since it got darker. My only answer to this is that it's harder to judge a close pass in the dark and the driver won't take the risk?


You can't prevent it unless you are willing to be hit to stop it, only discourage it, but I think we use the same tactic.

Past years, drivers have seemed more willing to risk it than this year so far. Is this widespread?


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## Lovacott (6 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> You can't prevent it unless you are willing to be hit to stop it, only discourage it, but I think we use the same tactic.
> Past years, drivers have seemed more willing to risk it than this year so far. Is this widespread?


I ended up in hospital in 1993 after a close pass in London where a wing mirror hitting my handlebar sent my racer front wheel into the kerb and me over the handlebars. The driver didn't stop.

I have been a road hog ever since, only moving left if it is safe for a car behind to overtake me.

However, seeing as how many people were buying bikes this year and the number of cyclists I saw out on the road, maybe a lot of them are also drivers and have learned to appreciate the risks that cyclists take?


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## mjr (6 Nov 2020)

I don't know. I've also asked if people are noticing any increase in cycling on https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-the-coronacycling-boom-coming-to-an-end.266574/post-6187685


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## rockyroller (6 Nov 2020)

rockyroller said:


> I get to play with the commuters tonight. not on a road, but a paved commuter bikeway. there are some robust riders who are so fast even tho they don't look it. meaning some have upright bars & large panniers & dressed is suits, but those guys can fly & often blow my doors off


turns out (I think) there weren't many commuters cuz everyone is telecommuting. the trail was empty except for casual riders. but it was dark so I might be wrong. but can't imagine why this person would run a flashing strobe instead of a steady light. doesn't make sense. it's not like we're gonna see them any better ...


View: https://youtu.be/MhsiZZEkWYI


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## RichardB (6 Nov 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Indeed too much light is a danger.



The same argument has been had on many motorcycle forums too. There is a contingent who ride with full beam on no matter what the time of day or conditions. "If they flash to complain, at least it shows they have seen me!" For some reason, far more US riders seem to take this attitude than Europeans. It seems very selfish to me. And, after all, if someone is driving towards you in a tonne and a half of metal, the last thing you want to do is blind them, in my opinion.


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## Lovacott (6 Nov 2020)

RichardB said:


> The same argument has been had on many motorcycle forums too. There is a contingent who ride with full beam on no matter what the time of day or conditions. "If they flash to complain, at least it shows they have seen me!" For some reason, far more US riders seem to take this attitude than Europeans. It seems very selfish to me. And, after all, if someone is driving towards you in a tonne and a half of metal, the last thing you want to do is blind them, in my opinion.



When I drive home in my car on unlit roads, I am frequently blinded by oncoming traffic using either high beam or overly bright LED headlights.

For a few seconds, I am driving practically blind.

For this very reason, I aim my LED bike headlights down and left. I'm only interested in seeing the road surface I am about to run my tyres over.

What I fail to understand is the logic of a front flashing light? I've seen loads of cyclists in the last week with a front flasher but I don't get it?

Traffic which is in front of me or coming towards me is not something which bothers me. Because I can see them, I can either take preventative or reactive measures to keep myself safe. I don't rely on them being able to see me.

You need to be seen from behind though so I understand flashers on the back (but I don't use them myself).

But on the front, you need to be able to see the road and I don't see how a flashing headlight achieves that?


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## roley poley (6 Nov 2020)

I wear a peaked cap as it can be used to shade your eyes from the dazzle of others oncoming lights and hopefully still see the road in front


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## mjr (6 Nov 2020)

roley poley said:


> I wear a peaked cap as it can be used to shade your eyes from the dazzle of others oncoming lights and hopefully still see the road in front


A hand shielding your eyes from the light works too! Still takes a few seconds.


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## roley poley (6 Nov 2020)

mjr said:


> A hand shielding your eyes from the light works too! Still takes a few seconds.


hopefully a "blinded man's salute"may encourage them to dip 😖


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## RichardB (7 Nov 2020)

Lovacott said:


> What I fail to understand is the logic of a front flashing light? I've seen loads of cyclists in the last week with a front flasher but I don't get it?



At night it makes no sense, except if your battery is on its last legs and you are eking out the last bit of light to get you home. I have done this, but it's pretty bizarre, like cycling at a Pink Floyd concert in 1968 but without tbe acid.

In bright or dappled sunlight, it makes a lot of sense. A couple of years ago I was driving my car on a bright summer's day. Long hill upwards, overhanging trees, light and shade. I was driving quite 'enthusiastically' until I saw a bright flashing light ahead under the trees. I slowed down, and there were two cyclists riding towards me. I was quite shocked, because I think I am quite an observant driver and I didn't see them at all - they were literally invisible in the shadows under the trees. Since then, I have always had a forward-facing flashing light if the sun is bright. I have a feeling it may also deter the impatient overtaker coming towards you. Obviously, in daylight there is no danger of dazzling anyone - it's just a 'here I am'.


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## Drago (7 Nov 2020)

There is no danger of dazzling anyone, but there is a danger of the light breaking up your visible silhouette, thus depriving the observers brain of the visual datum required to accurately calculate your speed - this makes T bone type scenarios _much_ more likely. This was discovered in the 80's by Suzuki. The matter was further researched by Honda, who at the time owned a major searchlight manufacturer so had world class optics expertise to call upon, and they discovered the same phenomenon. And having discovered this the EU ignore it completely and also mandate DRL set ups for motorbikes.

The safest day time set up for a 2 wheeler is 3 low output lights arranged in a triangle, such as BMW fit to some models. In the event that your visual signature is obscured the observer can still calculate speed by the rate at which the triangle 'grows' as it approaches. Simply slapping a regular bright bike light in the middle of your bars serves only to potentially mitigate one risk at the expense of exposing you to a different one.

Next time you're riding towards a motorbike running lights during the day you'll see this phenomenon for yourself if you're paying attention.

Every action has a consequence, even things supposedly done in the name of safety. Slapping up daytime lights and blithely thinking it makes you safer actually makes you more likely to get yourself into trouble - think about the downsides as well.


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## Lovacott (7 Nov 2020)

RichardB said:


> ... like cycling at a Pink Floyd concert in 1968 but without the acid.


Knebworth.

1988 I think it was. Sam Brown doing backing vocals on Comfortably Numb.

What a night.


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## cyberknight (7 Nov 2020)

Drago said:


> There is no danger of dazzling anyone, but there is a danger of the light breaking up your visible silhouette, thus depriving the observers brain of the visual datum required to accurately calculate your speed - this makes T bone type scenarios _much_ more likely. This was discovered in the 80's by Suzuki. The matter was further researched by Honda, who at the time owned a major searchlight manufacturer so had world class optics expertise to call upon, and they discovered the same phenomenon. And having discovered this the EU ignore it completely and also mandate DRL set ups for motorbikes.
> 
> The safest day time set up for a 2 wheeler is 3 low output lights arranged in a triangle, such as BMW fit to some models. In the event that your visual signature is obscured the observer can still calculate speed by the rate at which the triangle 'grows' as it approaches. Simply slapping a regular bright bike light in the middle of your bars serves only to potentially mitigate one risk at the expense of exposing you to a different one.
> 
> ...


my rear lights on my commuter , one one the seatpost and a light on each pannier bag form a triangle


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## cyberknight (11 Nov 2020)

Easy way to avoid commuting in the dark , last night had to do a 12 hour shift so by home time it was already sunrise , today i have just vegetated and ate junk


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## Lovacott (12 Nov 2020)

RichardB said:


> At night it makes no sense, except if your battery is on its last legs and you are eking out the last bit of light to get you home. I have done this, but it's pretty bizarre, like cycling at a Pink Floyd concert in 1968 but without tbe acid.
> 
> In bright or dappled sunlight, it makes a lot of sense.



I get that. Something for me to consider when it starts getting light again in six months time.


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## rockyroller (12 Nov 2020)

front strobe is also fun with snow falling at night ;-)


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