# Tendonitis advice



## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

I have quite sore tendons in the back of my right leg behind my knee.

Does anyone else suffer with this after a ride ?

If so, what advice do you have please ?


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Stretch and RICE. Check your saddle position. If it persists see a physiotherapist for a diagnosis and an exercise programme


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Stretch and RICE. Check your saddle position. If it persists see a physiotherapist for a diagnosis and an exercise programme




Rice ?


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Rest ice compression elevation


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## TissoT (9 Jun 2014)

sometimes get it myself .. Tendon over load to many miles
check your riding potion on the bike for starters


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Rest ice compression elevation



Oh I see. Yes, have been doing that.



tissot said:


> sometimes get it myself .. Tendon over load to many miles
> check your riding potion on the bike for starters



Ok, stupid question I am sure, but how will I know if my riding position is correct ?


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

There are plenty of guides online, Shelton brown and you tube. Or you can pay for a bike fit. Are you new to rising, what bike do you have, is it new?


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> There are plenty of guides online, Shelton brown and you tube. Or you can pay for a bike fit. Are you new to rising, what bike do you have, is it new?



Yes new to riding.

Have a Carrera Zelos at the moment.

Have changed the pedals to Shimano SPDs. I understand from somewhere else that the position of my cleats could be a potential issue. I just positioned them in the middle and toward the front of the shoes. Only have the tendon issue in my right leg.


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## TissoT (9 Jun 2014)

how many miles do you cover when out


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## ianrauk (9 Jun 2014)

If it is tendinitis then you will need to let it completely heal before bike riding again or you will inflame it again. When I had it in my shin it took over 2 weeks before it healed completely.


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

tissot said:


> how many miles do you cover when out



So far:

6.7 
14
24
34
17
50


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## TissoT (9 Jun 2014)

would you not consider a independent bike fit ...
will aid you in the future !


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

ianrauk said:


> If it is tendinitis then you will need to let it completely heal before bike riding again or you will inflame it again. When I had it in my shin it took over 2 weeks before it healed completely.



To be honest maybe I am being a bit dramatic. It's not excrutiating pain or anything more like stiffness and a dull ache.

Could well be down to lack of warm up/stretching and possibly my seat height although that is not high at all. I am about 5ft 11 and my seat is only a couple of inches above cross bar and when sat on saddle i am on my very tips of toes.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

As Ian says, you don't want it becoming chronic. An anti inflammatory gel or pills might help


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

tissot said:


> would you not consider a independent bike fit ...
> will aid you in the future !



I have just found this company in Colchester that do a bike fit so might give them a call http://www.cycle-evolution.net/the-fit.html


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> As Ian says, you don't want it becoming chronic. An anti inflammatory gel or pills might help



Thanks, that's what I have done this morning. Deep freeze anti inflammatory gel and ibuprofen


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## PK99 (9 Jun 2014)

Coggy said:


> I have quite sore tendons in the back of my right leg behind my knee.
> 
> Does anyone else suffer with this after a ride ?
> 
> If so, what advice do you have please ?



I developed this problem some time ago- always my right leg. A bike radar article advised that posterior knee pain is almost always a result of hyper extending the knee joint. Saddle height of fore aft positioning might be an issue, but are more likely to result in pain further up the thigh.

I worked out that I had developed a bad habit of freewheeling with my right leg "straight" ie with the knee joint slightly hyper extended. I changed that habit and hey presto the knee pain disappeared immediately


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Coggy said:


> To be honest maybe I am being a bit dramatic. It's not excrutiating pain or anything more like stiffness and a dull ache.
> 
> Could well be down to lack of warm up/stretching and possibly my seat height although that is not high at all. I am about 5ft 11 and my seat is only a couple of inches above cross bar and when sat on saddle i am on my very tips of toes.


Sounds like the bike may be too big, on tip toes on my bike, I have a good 6 or 7 inches of seat post showing, following a bike fit


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

PK99 said:


> I developed this problem some time ago- always my right leg. A bike radar article advised that posterior knee pain is almost always a result of hyper extending the knee joint. Saddle height of fore aft positioning might be an issue, but are more likely to result in pain further up the thigh.
> 
> I worked out that I had developed a bad habit of freewheeling with my right leg "straight" ie with the knee joint slightly hyper extended. I changed that habit and hey presto the knee pain disappeared immediately



I do that (free wheeling with my right leg straight !


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Sounds like the bike may be too big, on tip toes on my bike, I have a good 6 or 7 inches of seat post showing, following a bike fit




I did wonder that.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

I was going to suggest going back to the lbs for advice, but given you presumably bought it from halfords... It might be worth a try anyhow

What size did you get?

However, given you've ridden it 6 times or something, it may just be you need to get used to it. Also find a YouTube guide on positioning cleats, it's a dark art!

Dial down the mileage and let it recover. Going up to 50 miles on your sixth ride, is almost certainly too much too soon


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> I was going to suggest going back to the lbs for advice, but given you presumably bought it from halfords... It might be worth a try anyhow
> 
> What size did you get?
> 
> ...



54cm as recommended by Halfords website 

Whilst 5ft 11 I do actually have quite a short inside leg of 30.5 inches so now wondering if this is the issue as I see Halfords call a 54cm frame "Large"


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> I was going to suggest going back to the lbs for advice, but given you presumably bought it from halfords... It might be worth a try anyhow
> 
> What size did you get?
> 
> ...




It first started after a 34 mile ride last week.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

The halfords geometry is rather different I believe, what are the actual dimensions?


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Coggy said:


> It first started after a 34 mile ride last week.


I reckon you've overdone it, on a bike that isn't set up right for you, and with spds, quite possibly incorrectly positioned

Could be a strain rather than tendonitis, which tends to be a more gradual process caused by overuse

Try heat as well as ice and stretch gently, but only after exercise

Seen a doctor?


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> The halfords geometry is rather different I believe, what are the actual dimensions?



Can't find the info for the Zelos but this is for the Carrera Virtuoso so I assume similar dimensions


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Quite a long top tube, I ride 54cm bikes and am a smidge under 5'10, however being female, my height is more In my legs than torso

Also really wide bars, I use a 38cm, but again narrower shoulders on the superior sex 

They evidently measure bikes on the seat tube. Rather than the top tube like most

My 54cm genesis has a 51cm seat tube http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/road/sportive/equilibrium-20

You could perhaps make it smaller with a shorter stem. However, all speculation, sort the saddle and cleat position first and rest for a week


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> I reckon you've overdone it, on a bike that isn't set up right for you, and with spds, quite possibly incorrectly positioned
> 
> Could be a strain rather than tendonitis, which tends to be a more gradual process caused by overuse
> 
> ...



Not yet. Takes about a month to get an appointment in our village !


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Quite a long top tube, I ride 54cm bikes and am a smidge under 5'10, however being female, my height is more In my legs than torso
> 
> Also really wide bars, I use a 38cm, but again narrower shoulders on the superior sex
> 
> ...



Rest for a week !

I was just getting my fitness up and was chuffed with an average 15.1mph on my 50 miles yesterday.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Well yes, quite possibly, or a few days and then do maybe a few flat miles. Unless you want it to get worse and become a month, three months, six months ... And sort. The bike out in the meantime

I got chronic tendonitis in my elbow from cycling, I ended up with a year of physio, two injections and two surgeries...all from a bike that was too big...

No real alternative if you've overdone it


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Well yes, quite possibly, or a few days and then do maybe a few flat miles. Unless you want it to get worse and become a month, three months, six months ... And sort. The bike out in the meantime
> 
> I got chronic tendonitis in my elbow from cycling, I ended up with a year of physio, two injections and two surgeries...all from a bike that was too big...



Thanks for all your advice by the way


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Well yes, quite possibly, or a few days and then do maybe a few flat miles. Unless you want it to get worse and become a month, three months, six months ... And sort. The bike out in the meantime
> 
> I got chronic tendonitis in my elbow from cycling, I ended up with a year of physio, two injections and two surgeries...all from a bike that was too big...
> 
> No real alternative if you've overdone it



Looks like I may well be upgrading to my new bike quicker than I expected. I was going to treat myself next spring once we had finished all the work to our new house but IF it is too big for me then I will have to replace it sooner as I have a charity ride to complete next month.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

When did you get it? Don't jump to conclusions, go get a bike fit maybe, even just to sort the cleats, if you've just changed to those could be a red flag


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Well yes, quite possibly, or a few days and then do maybe a few flat miles. Unless you want it to get worse and become a month, three months, six months ... And sort. The bike out in the meantime
> 
> I got chronic tendonitis in my elbow from cycling, I ended up with a year of physio, two injections and two surgeries...all from a bike that was too big...
> 
> No real alternative if you've overdone it



According to this online Calculator I have exactly the right size bike for me.

http://www.ebicycles.com/bicycle-tools/frame-sizer/road-bike


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> When did you get it? Don't jump to conclusions, go get a bike fit maybe, even just to sort the cleats, if you've just changed to those could be a red flag



Have ridden with Cleats ever since I bought the bike.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Which was when? 6 rides done in total, recent use


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Which was when? 6 rides done in total, recent use



All of the above 6 rides were on the new bike. I hadn't ridden my old bike in 3 years.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

Overdone it I'd say, and new to cleats too, or did you ride the old bike clipless too. You need to position. The cleat by the knobbly bit below the big toe and make sure when clipped that your feet hang at the angle they would naturally take if you were sat on a table swinging your feet


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> Overdone it I'd say, and new to cleats too, or did you ride the old bike clipless too. You need to position. The cleat by the knobbly bit below the big toe and make sure when clipped that your feet hang at the angle they would naturally take if you were sat on a table swinging your feet



Do you mean where the point and arrow is on this image when you say knobbly bit ?

No, have never ridden with cleats until this bike.


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## vickster (9 Jun 2014)

No I think the bolts level with that bit of the foot, however, I have never done this myself so take with a pinch of salt and get googling


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## Coggy (9 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> No I think the bolts level with that bit of the foot, however, I have never done this myself so take with a pinch of salt and get googling




I have tried some gentle stretching whilst sat at my desk by extending my leg and then bending my foot towards my shin and it seems to be helping


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## Crankarm (10 Jun 2014)

If you are building up miles in your legs you WILL need to take care of them. Get yourself a large spray can of anti-freeze and roll back and sides of your legs back and forth in small sections over it. Start off gently as you will be very tender, work from your heal Achilles, up your leg, calf both sides, tendons and back of knee. Then go above your knee if you want to massage your upper leg. Do your IBT if you need to as well if it is sore, although go carefully as it may be tender. You will need to support your body weight with your arms. Do not stretch your muscles but do this instead. You are massaging the muscles and tendons stimulating blood flow, old out and new in. Do before and after you ride or in the morning and evenings when you get up or go to bed. Only need take 5 minutes when you are good at it. When out on a ride legs will feel a lot more supple and stronger. You will look forward to this massage. It is simple and cheap the only cost being that of a can of anti freeze spray. Why anti freeze? It's cold that's why.

Also as others have said you need the right frame size and correct saddle height. When stationary sitting evenly and square on your bike put your heal on the pedal at the bottom of it's stroke - your leg should be relaxed straight to very very very slightly unlocked. If your heal cannot reach the pedal or you have to slide your hip down to the side to allow your heal to reach it then your saddle is too high. Loosen and lower a few mm at a time. go for a test ride and re-assess. Also don't push heavy gears, spin easily and comfortably, obviously not like a kid's windmill spiny thing but so you are comfortable. Keep your knees in toward the top tube as you ride. Relax your upper body and power smoothly around the whole pedal stroke. Don't over do it at this early stage. If you can get a cycling computer/Garmin with cadence function this would be a great aid for you. Try to routinely ride at 85-90 or slightly higher 95 as you get fitter and stronger.

HTH.


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## vickster (10 Jun 2014)

To be clear, he just uses the can to roll out all the knots and not the contents as some sort of anti environment, but cheap deep heat remedy! The other option is a foam roller from amazon, physio room, Argos!

It's ITB rather than IBT if the OP wants to know what it is


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## Coggy (10 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> To be clear, he just uses the can to roll out all the knots and not the contents as some sort of anti environment, but cheap deep heat remedy! The other option is a foam roller from amazon, physio room, Argos!
> 
> It's ITB rather than IBT if the OP wants to know what it is



I honestly had to double read the post because at first I thought "spraying anti freeze on your legs is insane"!!


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## Coggy (10 Jun 2014)

I keep chuckling as I was seriously thinking of massaging my legs with anti freeze before bed.


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## Coggy (10 Jun 2014)

Crankarm said:


> If you are building up miles in your legs you WILL need to take care of them. Get yourself a large spray can of anti-freeze and roll back and sides of your legs back and forth in small sections over it. Start off gently as you will be very tender, work from your heal Achilles, up your leg, calf both sides, tendons and back of knee. Then go above your knee if you want to massage your upper leg. Do your IBT if you need to as well if it is sore, although go carefully as it may be tender. You will need to support your body weight with your arms. Do not stretch your muscles but do this instead. You are massaging the muscles and tendons stimulating blood flow, old out and new in. Do before and after you ride or in the morning and evenings when you get up or go to bed. Only need take 5 minutes when you are good at it. When out on a ride legs will feel a lot more supple and stronger. You will look forward to this massage. It is simple and cheap the only cost being that of a can of anti freeze spray. Why anti freeze? It's cold that's why.
> 
> Also as others have said you need the right frame size and correct saddle height. When stationary sitting evenly and square on your bike put your heal on the pedal at the bottom of it's stroke - your leg should be relaxed straight to very very very slightly unlocked. If your heal cannot reach the pedal or you have to slide your hip down to the side to allow your heal to reach it then your saddle is too high. Loosen and lower a few mm at a time. go for a test ride and re-assess. Also don't push heavy gears, spin easily and comfortably, obviously not like a kid's windmill spiny thing but so you are comfortable. Keep your knees in toward the top tube as you ride. Relax your upper body and power smoothly around the whole pedal stroke. Don't over do it at this early stage. If you can get a cycling computer/Garmin with cadence function this would be a great aid for you. Try to routinely ride at 85-90 or slightly higher 95 as you get fitter and stronger.
> 
> HTH.



Thanks, for your help and advice


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## Crankarm (10 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> To be clear, he just uses the can to roll out all the knots and not the contents as some sort of anti environment, but cheap deep heat remedy! The other option is a foam roller from amazon, physio room, Argos!
> 
> It's ITB rather than IBT if the OP wants to know what it is



Errr ……. I don't think my post suggests anything but rolling your legs over a spray can of antifreeze?????? Certainly not spraying the contents over one's legs which would be stupid and frankly mental. A foam roller is an alternative, but it will cost many times more and not be half as effective imho. Also you won't have the cooling effect that you get from a can of anti-freeze and it will compress. A Carplan large can of anti freeze is ideal and cost me £1.99.

Yes ITB / IBT I'm dyslexic so have to double triple check everything but this must have slipped through.


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## Crankarm (10 Jun 2014)

Coggy said:


> Thanks, for your help and advice



You are welcome.


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## vickster (10 Jun 2014)

However, I would say it needs clarification if you have never come across the concept of foam rolling. It wasn't immediately clear to the OP either. Personally, I'd invest a tenner in a foam roller, noting that they are not all the same. Any more than I would use a bungee cord or normal bit of elastic instead of a theraband


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## Coggy (10 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> However, I would say it needs clarification if you have never come across the concept of foam rolling. It wasn't immediately clear to the OP either. Personally, I'd invest in a foam roller, noting that they are not all the same. Any more than I would use a bungee cord or normal bit of elastic instead of a theraband



I had no idea what "rolling" was/is. Thankfully you have saved me from using Anti Freeze as a massage oil.

Actually, when you say Anti Freeze I assume you actually mean De-Icer ?


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## vickster (10 Jun 2014)

To be honest I wouldn't embark on any sort of programme like this without the advice of a physiotherapist, it's relatively easy to do this sort of stuff incorrectly and cause more problems. Squats are a case in point, knackered knees due to poor form

Coggy, if rest doesn't help, invest £50 in a physio session. Explain the issues and your goals. Once you've checked the bike is set up right as above


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## Coggy (10 Jun 2014)

vickster said:


> To be honest I wouldn't embark on any sort of programme like this without the advice of a physiotherapist, it's relatively easy to do this sort of stuff incorrectly and cause more problems. Squats are a case in point, knackered knees due to poor form
> 
> Coggy, if rest doesn't help, invest £50 in a physio session. Explain the issues and your goals. Once you've checked the bike is set up right as above



By the way, meant to say, by last night, totally pain free. All ok now. Think I just over did it a bit and didn't warm and/or warm down properly.


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## Crankarm (10 Jun 2014)

Coggy said:


> I had no idea what "rolling" was/is. Thankfully you have saved me from using Anti Freeze as a massage oil.
> 
> Actually, when you say Anti Freeze I assume you actually mean De-Icer ?



Err …… I think you mean to be directing your questions at me .

Yes De-Icer / Anti-Freeze Spray what you spray on a car windscreen when it is frozen.

Re enlisting the help of physios and paying £50 etc. Fine if you want to do that but what I tell you works. You will need to look after your body if you are serious about upping your cycling mileage on a regular basis and staying in good shape i.e. avoiding injury. I have used general physios the sort of which Vickster may be suggesting in the past and frankly they were a waste of time and money as they weren't proper experienced sports physios and their cost soon adds up. However the one that sorted out my shoulder when I was knocked down over 3 years ago said this was a good exercise. Such exercises are featured quite often in running, tri and some of the better cycling mags. Maybe look at some of these in case they feature more articles on restorative exercises and gentle stretching. It's a good tip it works, certainly has for me as I ride about 300 miles a week and run and I am injury free. My advice is free and I don't have a hand in your wallet or a product to sell.


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## Coggy (10 Jun 2014)

Crankarm said:


> Err …… I think you mean to be directing your questions at me .
> 
> Yes De-Icer / Anti-Freeze Spray what you spray on a car windscreen when it is frozen.
> 
> Re enlisting the help of physios and paying £50 etc. Fine if you want to do that but what I tell you works. You will need to look after your body if you are serious about upping your cycling mileage on a regular basis and staying in good shape i.e. avoiding injury. I have used general physios the sort of which Vickster may be suggesting in the past and frankly they were a waste of time and money as they weren't proper experienced sports physios and their cost soon adds up. However the one that sorted out my shoulder when I was knocked down over 3 years ago said this was a good exercise. Such exercises are featured quite often in running, tri and some of the better cycling mags. Maybe look at some of these in case they feature more articles on restorative exercises and gentle stretching. It's a good tip it works, certainly has for me as I ride about 300 miles a week and run and I am injury free. My advice is free and I don't have a hand in your wallet or a product to sell.




Sorry yes meant to direct my post to yourself.

De-Icer and Anti Freeze are cery different.

Spray anti freeze on your car paint work and then spray De-Icer on it and tell me which one you like best.


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## vickster (10 Jun 2014)

I meant a sports physio . The ones I have seen charge around £50. Yes it adds up for chronic injuries of course especially if there is a specific issue. However, for a diagnosis and exercise / stretching programme to prevent said injuries one or two sessions should suffice


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## S.Giles (12 Jun 2014)

I have suffered on and off with a very sharp pain in the tendons behind the knees. On one particular 40 mile ride this became _really_ bad so I sat down and thought it through and decided that my saddle was a little too high (I was in the habit of having it adjusted higher than recommended). As mentioned in an above post, a (too) high saddle over extends the knee on every rotation of the pedals. At this end of the saddle height range, a small change (reduction, say) in saddle height results in a big change (reduction) in the angle that the knee has to flex through.

I worked it out mathematically (we have to make our own entertainment around here!), and (IIRC) an approx. 3% change in saddle height makes a 20% difference in the range of angles through which the knee has to bend. This is because close to 180 degrees (ie, straight leg), a large angular change will result from only a small change in the _cos_ ratio (distance between the pedal and saddle heights). It's basic GCSE trigonometry, but explained my problem perfectly.

To cut a long story short, I lowered the saddle by about 20mm, and (touch wood), the problem disappeared.

Steve


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## Coggy (15 Jun 2014)

So, before yesterday's ride:

Lowered seat by about 5-10mm
Adjusted cleats on MTB shoes

Did a 27 mile ride. Today no tendon or leg pain.

However, found ride MUCH tougher than last weeks 50 miler.

Yes a bit of a head wind and also wet at times. Could the difficulty level be due to changes made to riding position/ what I am user to.

Lot less tired today.


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## vickster (15 Jun 2014)

I guess it depends whether the previous set up was more efficient. My bike fit made the position more akin to the most efficient one, this isn't proving the most comfortable for my legs however! That said, the left one is not in a great state!


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## rualexander (15 Jun 2014)

Coggy said:


> So far:
> 
> 6.7
> 14
> ...



Mileages ramped up far too quickly, classic route to tendon injury. 
Cut back the distance and repeat a lower mileage a few times before gradually increasing distances by around 10% per week.


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## Coggy (17 Jun 2014)

Did a 17 mile route today that I have done before. 

No problems with strains or pain and felt like I could have gone again. 

Interestingly enough, just a five second difference between last time I did this toute although it felt much slower and I had quite a head wind on 50% of ride. 

Shall use this route as my regular midweek ride and it will be a good indicator to how I am improving. 

Still getting used to new set up. Feels quite different and not as efficient as before but as I say no pain or strains.


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