# Basic tools for touring



## Andy in Germany (6 Dec 2018)

I realise that there's probably another thread for this, and that it's pretty much a "How long is a piece of string?" question, but I'm wondering what other people would consider 'basic' tools for a tour.

If our planned tour to Japan goes ahead, we'll be using the same reconditioned 90's era steel MTB's that we usually do. They are due for new tyres and we'll probably use Schwalbe Marathon Plus as I've been using those for years and not had any problems that were not self inflicted. Apart from this I'd carry pretty much the same as I do now:

Spanners for removing wheels/pedals.
Several hex keys because one set can't get at everything on the bike:
'L' shaped Hex key set
Three way hex key set 4/5/6mm
'T' Hex key 5mm
Crosshead screwdrivers

Pump
Puncture repair kit/tyre levers

Spares:
Cables
V-Brake blocks

What would you add?


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## Racing roadkill (6 Dec 2018)

Wet wipes.


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## Bored Man (6 Dec 2018)

Spoke key
Chain breaker


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## raleighnut (6 Dec 2018)

An inner tube or 2.


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

Quick Link
Cable Ties
Duct Tape
Nitrile Gloves 
Knife
Small bottle of lube
Spare inner tubes

Tool roll works nicely for all the above and more.


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## Spiderweb (6 Dec 2018)

I’m not sure you would need a spare set of brake blocks, they last forever!
Just make sure they are decent before you set off.


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## Cycleops (6 Dec 2018)

IMHO one of these is essential. Includes a chain breaker. This is from Crank Bros.


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## Dave Davenport (6 Dec 2018)

I've had problems trying to use a chain splitter that's part of a multi-tool so carry a separate one, only thing I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned is a tyre boot or two.


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## Pale Rider (6 Dec 2018)

Spare spokes.

One of the Dawes Galaxy touring bikes comes with a couple of spokes clipped to the chainstay.

Alternatively, I believe you can get a universal spare spoke in the shape of a flexible wire you can fit and tension.

No idea how well they work.


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## Andy in Germany (6 Dec 2018)

How often have chains been known to break? I've only had it happen once and that was because I installed it badly, so it exploded all over the road a couple of K's from my apartment.



Dave Davenport said:


> only thing I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned is a tyre boot or two.




Is a "Tyre boot" like a tyre lever? And am I the only person who has three which are all different designs?


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## alicat (6 Dec 2018)

A tyre boot is something that you can put inside the tyre to stop a bulge getting bigger until you can replace the tyre. I use cloth from an old airbed. No idea if that is strong enough.

Edit - apparently and perhaps obviously, it's to repair a small cut until you can replace the tyre.

Here is Park Tools' offering. I still favour finding something homemade.


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## Andy in Germany (6 Dec 2018)

Cycleops said:


> IMHO one of these is essential. Includes a chain breaker. This is from Crank Bros.
> 
> View attachment 441607



What are those called?


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## Andy in Germany (6 Dec 2018)

alicat said:


> A tyre boot is something that you can put inside the tyre to stop a bulge getting bigger until you can replace the tyre. I use cloth from an old airbed. No idea if that is strong enough.



Thanks. Looked it up after your description, and it makes sense now.


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## greenmark (6 Dec 2018)

credit card
nothing else.


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## Dave Davenport (6 Dec 2018)

greenmark said:


> credit card
> nothing else.


A credit card is too stiff to use as a tyre boot, whereas one of the new fivers is just the job, stick to cash!


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## Pale Rider (6 Dec 2018)

Dave Davenport said:


> A credit card is too stiff to use as a tyre boot, whereas one of the new fivers is just the job, stick to cash!



Or a crisp packet.


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## Cycleops (6 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> What are those called?


A multi tool.


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## Racing roadkill (6 Dec 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Cable Ties
> Duct Tape
> Nitrile Gloves
> Knife
> ...



What are you, some sort of serial killer?


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## Racing roadkill (6 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> How often have chains been known to break? I've only had it happen once and that was because I installed it badly, so it exploded all over the road a couple of K's from my apartment.



Most times I’ve needed the chain breaker / multi tool, it’s been down to a Pringled link, which is all too easy to do, if you make a hash of a down / up shift ( on the chain rings in particular).


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## mjr (6 Dec 2018)

Missing from some lists:
4" 15mm adjustable spanner.
Quick links.

I don't carry a flick knife multi tool, but instead a ¼" square drive T bar with long 10mm (brakes), 12mm (pedals), 14mm (cranks) and hex bit ¼" sockets, screwdriver and Allen key hex bits.

I sometimes carry a 6" adjustable instead on group tours because not everyone's nuts will move with a shorter shaft, but it's over twice the weight IIRC.


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## Bored Man (6 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> How often have chains been known to break? I've only had it happen once and that was because I installed it badly, so it exploded all over the road a couple of K's from my apartment?



You may have to split/shorten the chain to deal with a front or rear mech problem - not just for a broken chain


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## Milkfloat (6 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> I sometimes carry a 6" adjustable instead on group tours because not everyone's nuts will move with a shorter shaft, but it's over twice the weight IIRC.



I am trying so hard to resist.................


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> How often have chains been known to break? I've only had it happen once and that was because I installed it badly, so it exploded all over the road a couple of K's from my apartment.
> 
> Twice on my tourer. Once on the cargo bike. Went at the pins and once at the Quick Link. QL saved the day in both cases.
> 
> Is a "Tyre boot" like a tyre lever? And am I the only person who has three which are all different designs?



Toothpaste tube plastic is fantastic.



Cycleops said:


> A multi tool.



I have a Lezyne one with a knife. Brilliant. Best I have had. Chainsplitter too.



Racing roadkill said:


> What are you, some sort of serial killer?



Are you asking for a friend? Please DM me if you have any work for me. Everyone is so damn happy in December, things drop off. Gets busy again in January.


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## Andy in Germany (6 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> Missing from some lists:
> 4" 15mm adjustable spanner.
> Quick links.
> 
> ...



I have to be careful in Japan because I know they have very strict rules about knife blades. Gerrmany is more pragmatic, and if you have a reasonable reason to carry something dangerous then you can.

Before someone asks, that does include chainsaws.

One question though.:



mjr said:


> Missing from some lists:
> a ¼" square drive T bar with long 10mm (brakes), 12mm (pedals), 14mm (cranks) and hex bit ¼" sockets, screwdriver and Allen key hex bits.



As I've been in furrin parts for a very long time, humour me: what is this? I sortof get the picture, but I did a lot of my learning here so my tools vocabulary is in German.


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## mjr (6 Dec 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I am trying so hard to resist.................


Don't worry. A good hard push with a six-incher will shift most.


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## mjr (6 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> As I've been in furrin parts for a very long time, humour me: what is this? I sortof get the picture, but I did a lot of my learning here so my tools vocabulary is in German.


I moved the camera too soon, so apologies for the blurry tilted picture:





From left to right, top to bottom: screwdriver and Allen hex bits, hex bit socket (holding small straight screwdriver bit), 14mm socket; 12mm socket, ¼" square driver T bar, 10mm long socket.

The main reason for the long socket is to reach past the mudguard stays to the chain tug adjuster nuts on my most-used bike. It is possible to use the adjustable for that but it's much more awkward, so I suck up the 25g weight penalty over a short socket  The 10mm socket and the adjustable set to 10mm are used together to release/adjust some brake arms.


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## HobbesOnTour (6 Dec 2018)

Love the fact that you're planning this on old MTBs! 

This applies from another thread - it covers just about everything....


Globalti said:


> If your bike is well-maintained and you are on top of the maintenance (for example, could you tell me now, without checking, how worn the chain, tyres and brakes are?) you don't need to carry anything other than puncture repair kit, a couple of inner tubes, chain lube, a small multi-tool for minor repairs, plus any of those wear items, which you estimate are going to wear out during the trip. If they are commonly available you don't even need to carry them as you can just buy them and fit them as needed.
> 
> If all this is meaningless to you, you'd better be prepared for some breakdowns along the way and carry cash and a credit card to pay shop mechanics.



I'd add that you need to ensure you have what you need to re-assemble the bike after the flight (and indeed to disassemble for your return). I'd strongly suggest you set out your tools and go through the full process.

As for a pump, make sure that it can pump to your desired pressures. Nothing worse than a pump that will not get you to the desired pressure.

Use a bolt fastening glue on racks etc, or prepare to check these every couple of days, especially if you've any rough stuff to travel over.

Check also your panniers are in good nick as any camping gear you may be bringing. 

I always carry spare brake pads and cables. The trip stops dead if brakes fail in the wrong place and a snapped gear cable with a big mountain between you and the next bike shop can mean a long walk.
From my own experience, I always carry a spare saddle pin (holds the saddle in place) after one broke on me in Italy. Spare ones are very hard to find!

If there is any upgrading to be done on the bikes before the tour, look to harmonise the parts if possible - it means less spares required between the 2 of you.

In any case, sitting down at the planning stage and thinking of all the things that can go wrong or break is always far worse than the reality - things will work out! (Well, maybe not if you're travelling across deserts and the like).


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## mjr (6 Dec 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I always carry spare brake pads and cables. The trip stops dead if brakes fail in the wrong place and a snapped gear cable with a big mountain between you and the next bike shop can mean a long walk.
> From my own experience, I always carry a spare saddle pin (holds the saddle in place) after one broke on me in Italy. Spare ones are very hard to find!


I think you have to set a limit somewhere, though, and you've just gone beyond mine! I carry spare cables on longer tours as they're small, but I satisfy myself by replacing pads if needed before I leave, so that they've still got enough life in them. If they still wear out, I should spot it early enough to find some because they're not so unusual - except on the hub brakes but they're very unlikely to wear out that fast... cook the hub grease maybe  but not wear out pads.

Similarly, I'd only carry a spare seat pin if it's unusual. Otherwise, worst case, I can probably replace it and the clamp with a modern integrated-clamp seatpost if either fail because the diameter is the common 27.2mm.

Related to the excellent "make sure that it can pump to your desired pressures" advice - make sure that any drivers and spanners in your touring toolkit can actually undo the things on your bike. What moves easily in the shed with a long hex key might seem stuck tight with a short flexi-jointed multi-tool.


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

Work stand. Nice sturdy, steel one.


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## snorri (6 Dec 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Work stand. Nice sturdy, steel one.


Thank you for that Heltor Chasca, although I fear this thread went from the sublime to the ridiculous before the end of Page One.
Touring cyclists can't hope to cover every eventuality so why bother trying, was my touring motto.


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## HobbesOnTour (6 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> I think you have to set a limit somewhere, though, and you've just gone beyond mine! I carry spare cables on longer tours as they're small, but I satisfy myself by replacing pads if needed before I leave, so that they've still got enough life in them. If they still wear out, I should spot it early enough to find some because they're not so unusual - except on the hub brakes but they're very unlikely to wear out that fast... cook the hub grease maybe  but not wear out pads.


That was me in reference to the brake pads.... until a combination of gravel & off road with heavy rain in Northern Spain and unfamiliar pads meant quickly wearing brake pads and the lack of biggish towns meant no bike shops until it was metal on metal. 
And when my front derailleur cable snapped on my last tour, I confidently pulled out my spare.... to discover I had 3 brake cables..... and no derailleurs! 




mjr said:


> Similarly, I'd only carry a spare seat pin if it's unusual. Otherwise, worst case, I can probably replace it and the clamp with a modern integrated-clamp seatpost if either fail because the diameter is the common 27.2mm.


I only found out the pin was difficult to replace in Verona after an enforced night wild camping at a petrol station during a storm. And that was after having to wait around on a Sunday because nowhere was open! A pin or a new seatpost - either one was responsible for almost 2 days behind schedule.

It's all horses for courses, really. Popular routes well populated with bike shops means we can get away with less tools or spares. More away from it all routes benefit from a little more preparation. My personal approach is to consider the risk/reward. 

I'm a great believer in Murphy's Law and plan accordingly 



mjr said:


> Related to the excellent "make sure that it can pump to your desired pressures" advice - make sure that any drivers and spanners in your touring toolkit can actually undo the things on your bike. What moves easily in the shed with a long hex key might seem stuck tight with a short flexi-jointed multi-tool.


Agreed. I've stripped my bike down and put it back together with what I have on tour. After adding a new front rack, I realised that the hex wrench on my multitool could no longer effectively adjust the brake nut.

Oh, if your punture kit is old, check the glue - it can dry out!


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## Milkfloat (6 Dec 2018)

I am so glad that lot's of you take a fully equipped LBS with you. If I get stuck, I know who to flag down. To take a lot of what some of you are suggesting, I would be having to travel to some really wild places. For large parts of the world some really simple tools and spares are all that are required.


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I am so glad that lot's of you take a fully equipped LBS with you. If I get stuck, I know who to flag down. To take a lot of what some of you are suggesting, I would be having to travel to some really wild places. For large parts of the world some really simple tools and spares are all that are required.



Quite. And for the same reason I don’t take a mallet for my tent stakes. Mostly you can do this with your shoe, but it’s my way of going over to other campers and breaking the ice by asking to borrow theirs. Sometimes the cultural and social aspect of touring is the biggest part. Invites to supper and coffee happen you know.

This experience also happens within the LBSs while you are on tour. Freebies and coffee happen too. I know this. I am lucky.


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> You may regret leaving that bench vice at home.



Perhaps. Just perhaps, if your workstand breaks, maybe take a second as a spare. But a sturdier, heavier one. It’s worth thinking about.

Or not.


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## robjh (6 Dec 2018)

Cable cutters, assuming you are carrying your own spare cables. You may not be able to pull the remains of a seriously frazzled cable through the cable housing, levers etc, and will need to cut it. Also, without cutters then your newly installed replacement brake or gear cable may have _a lot_ of spare cable to tie up somehow below the derailleur or calipers.
Of course, depending on where you're going you may calculate that you'll be able to limp onto the next LBS minus one cable, but in that case why carry spare cables at all.


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## mjr (6 Dec 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> And when my front derailleur cable snapped on my last tour, I confidently pulled out my spare.... to discover I had 3 brake cables..... and no derailleurs!


Who carries a spare gear cable? Just use the limit screws to pick a gear and continue at reduced speed until it can be replaced. Brake cables are much more critical!



HobbesOnTour said:


> Oh, if your punture kit is old, check the glue - it can dry out!


Not if you expel all the air before putting the cap on tight. And if that sort of thing is a problem, then ultimately there is nothing you can carry which will prevent all effects of clod-handedness hurting you...



Milkfloat said:


> I am so glad that lot's of you take a fully equipped LBS with you. If I get stuck, I know who to flag down. To take a lot of what some of you are suggesting, I would be having to travel to some really wild places. For large parts of the world some really simple tools and spares are all that are required.


Despite fitting everything up to wheel nuts and crank bolts, my base touring toolkit is about 400g, which is lighter than the pump and inner tube. There are far better mechanics than me on ordinary group rides, but I'm sometimes the most mechanically-minded in a tour group, so it's nice to be able to fix stuff sometimes and avoid us all playing hunt-the-bike-shop when we don't need to. Most of the bits are in it due to experience!


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

I carry a spare gear and brake cable @mjr. Very light and no space taken up.

But it’s mainly for situations where I run out of food and need to fish from a stream for tilapia. I tickle for trout.


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## HobbesOnTour (6 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> Who carries a spare gear cable? Just use the limit screws to pick a gear and continue at reduced speed until it can be replaced. Brake cables are much more critical!



Who adjusts their limit screws and limps to a bike shop when they can just whip out a cable and solve the problem in a few minutes? 



mjr said:


> Not if you expel all the air before putting the cap on tight. And if that sort of thing is a problem, then ultimately there is nothing you can carry which will prevent all effects of clod-handedness hurting you...


Maybe that advice was too clod-handed for you, but maybe it'll be useful advice to someone.




mjr said:


> Most of the bits are in it due to experience!


Ditto.


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## Blue Hills (6 Dec 2018)

robjh said:


> Cable cutters, assuming you are carrying your own spare cables. You may not be able to pull the remains of a seriously frazzled cable through the cable housing, levers etc, and will need to cut it. Also, without cutters then your newly installed replacement brake or gear cable may have _a lot_ of spare cable to tie up somehow below the derailleur or calipers.
> Of course, depending on where you're going you may calculate that you'll be able to limp onto the next LBS minus one cable, but in that case why carry spare cables at all.


Have often thought of cutters but they are somewhat heavy - and good ones that perform at home have to be carefully selected. Don't suppose there are any smallish non cycling specific ones that will do the job.

In connection with this, best to take a few cable end caps I suppose.


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## Heltor Chasca (6 Dec 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Have often thought of cutters but they are somewhat heavy - and good ones that perform at home have to be carefully selected. Don't suppose there are any smallish non cycling specific ones that will do the job.
> 
> In connection with this, best to take a few cable end caps I suppose.



Not cable cutters, but you reminded me of a ‘Phoar’ pair of pliers I have. 

These: 

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/products/pack-pliers


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## raleighnut (6 Dec 2018)

I've got a set of small 'mole' grips with tools inside similar to these,


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## Blue Hills (6 Dec 2018)

oo those look good - pricey I assume.


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## Threevok (6 Dec 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> I've since read that the cool thing to do (I've never done it) is to take your broken cable and secure it at one of the cable stops on the frame, maybe by putting the nipple against the stop on the chainstay, feed it through the mech as normal, physically shove the mech inboard and tighten it up. This will give you a useful lower single speed. But as I said, I've never done it. I can imagine that with a frayed cable end it could be ... challenging.


I've done similar with a zip tie

Always carry at least one, peeps


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## Racing roadkill (6 Dec 2018)

Threevok said:


> I've done similar with a zip tie
> 
> Always carry at least one, peeps


You also have to make sure you get a suitable ratio for the remaining ride, or you could be walking any steep bits you encounter.


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## Threevok (6 Dec 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> You also have to make sure you get a suitable ratio for the remaining ride, or you could be walking any steep bits you encounter.



I manage on the single speed OK.

Besides you've get 3 x 1 speed with a triple


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## Racing roadkill (6 Dec 2018)

Threevok said:


> I manage on the single speed OK.
> 
> Besides you've get 3 x 1 speed with a triple



That’s 3 ( relatively) very big jumps in gearing, not fun if you’re in a bunch. And we’re not talking about single speed bikes, we’re talking bodged up derailleur geared bikes.


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## Dave Davenport (6 Dec 2018)

This is all getting rather silly, just carry a spare bike and you're ready for anything!


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## mjr (6 Dec 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> That’s 3 ( relatively) very big jumps in gearing, not fun if you’re in a bunch. And we’re not talking about single speed bikes, we’re talking bodged up derailleur geared bikes.


Sure, but this is about touring and I've rarely seen people tour in tight formation.

I don't carry cable cutters. I loop up the cable, tie it and deal with it later.


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## Threevok (6 Dec 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> That’s 3 ( relatively) very big jumps in gearing, not fun if you’re in a bunch. And we’re not talking about single speed bikes, we’re talking bodged up derailleur geared bikes.



I mentioned single speed because, if I can manage to select an optimum gear ratio for my ride ahead with that, then I am sure I will (and have) manage to select an optimum gear with a mech bodge.

Not sure about bunching. I tend to wear baggy shorts


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## snorri (6 Dec 2018)

Basic tool for touring........a rohloff hub


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## R25 (6 Dec 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> I am trying so hard to resist.................


Great minds think alike.....


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## andrew_s (6 Dec 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> *In my experience* limit screws won't help you select another gear. Even with the high limit screw all the way in you'll be lucky if you shift a derailleur more than one gear inboard. That's what I've found anyway.


That's what I've found too.


> I've since read that the cool thing to do (I've never done it) is to take your broken cable and secure it at one of the cable stops on the frame, maybe by putting the nipple against the stop on the chainstay, feed it through the mech as normal, physically shove the mech inboard and tighten it up. This will give you a useful lower single speed. But as I said, I've never done it. I can imagine that with a frayed cable end it could be ... challenging.


What I've done, as a "get home" fix, is to push the parallelogram across and drop a small pebble into it to hold it open when you let go.


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## classic33 (6 Dec 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Perhaps. Just perhaps, if your workstand breaks, maybe take a second as a spare. *But a sturdier, heavier one. *It’s worth thinking about.
> 
> Or not.


Leg vice?


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## 8mph (6 Dec 2018)

Cable, spanner, bent nose pliers, cable ties, nuts, bolts, washers, inner tube, a patch of inner tube, tiny sewing kit, gaffer tape, knife, multi-tool, chain breaker, repair kit, tyre levers, toothbrush, lube, pump, a couple of old brake pads, a shoelace a couple of bungees ......... there's probably more!


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## classic33 (7 Dec 2018)

8mph said:


> Cable, spanner, bent nose pliers, cable ties, nuts, bolts, washers, inner tube, a patch of inner tube, tiny sewing kit, gaffer tape, knife, multi-tool, chain breaker, repair kit, tyre levers, toothbrush, lube, pump, a couple of old brake pads, a shoelace a couple of bungees ......... there's probably more!


If you take a sewing kit, forget about using everyday threads, go for something stronger.


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## 8mph (7 Dec 2018)

classic33 said:


> If you take a sewing kit, forget about using everyday threads, go for something stronger.


Very good point.


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## mickle (7 Dec 2018)

Dental gloss (and a needle) for repairs to tyre sidewalls, Allen key nest including 8mm Allen key adaptor, puncture kit, levers, mini chain tool, zip ties, spare nuts and bolts, spoke key, cassette breaker, presta/schrader valve adaptor, Swiss army knife, shovel/axe compass, gaffer tape, toe straps, chain lube, oily rag.


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## Andy in Germany (7 Dec 2018)

For some reason this thread stopped sending notifications around mid-afternoon yesterday so I'm catching up. It looks like some of my instincts were correct, but I suspect I'm in danger of over preparing because I'll be in Japan and I don't know how Japan 'works' in the same way as Germany. Thanks for all the ideas -and entertainment- so far. I'll read through the thread more carefully when I have time (ie: When the Chief is somewhere else)


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## Andy in Germany (7 Dec 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> Spare spokes.



This is another issue I've never had, despite having a pretty heavily loaded Xtracycle at times. What causes a broken spoke?

I've also been fairly cautious about using a spoke key without some kind of tool to tell me what is happening in the wheel when I turn it. How do you tighten spokes without turing the wheel into a Pretzel?



greenmark said:


> credit card
> nothing else.



You're assuming I have money...

In rural Japan (and to some extent rural Germany) credit cards are often not accepted, Japan is especially difficult as they really don't like anything bar Visa and American Express and we have a European Maestro, so I'll have to carry a 'float'.



Heltor Chasca said:


> Toothpaste tube plastic is fantastic.



Sounds like there's an interesting story behind this discovery.



Heltor Chasca said:


> I have a Lezyne one with a knife. Brilliant. Best I have had. Chainsplitter too.



I'll look for that, thanks.



HobbesOnTour said:


> Love the fact that you're planning this on old MTBs!



They're what we use every day, so I figured why change what works? I find that the steel frames and smaller wheels are pretty solid for regular riding in poor conditions.

They are getting some modifications though...



HobbesOnTour said:


> I'd add that you need to ensure you have what you need to re-assemble the bike after the flight (and indeed to disassemble for your return). I'd strongly suggest you set out your tools and go through the full process.
> 
> As for a pump, make sure that it can pump to your desired pressures. Nothing worse than a pump that will not get you to the desired pressure....
> 
> ...



Dismantling and reassembling will be part of the plan: something will go wrong at some point and require improvisation, I just want to be sure it's something I can improvise, especially as we'll be riding from the ferry port so we'll have to build the bikes there and then or walk 40k

As to pumps, tell me about it: as a child our family pump was terrible and I spent many years riding on saggy tyres.

Thanks for the remioder that I need to get Panniers: Xtracycles don't use them...



HobbesOnTour said:


> I'm a great believer in Murphy's Law and plan accordingly



That's my basic principle as well...



raleighnut said:


> I've got a set of small 'mole' grips with tools inside similar to these,
> 
> 
> View attachment 441637



Oooo. Nice. May fall foul of Japanese knife regulatuions though, and what is the knife for, cutting fresh meat? How would you sharpen the blade?



snorri said:


> Basic tool for touring........a rohloff hub



If only...



8mph said:


> Cable, spanner, bent nose pliers, cable ties, nuts, bolts, washers, inner tube, a patch of inner tube, tiny sewing kit, gaffer tape, knife, multi-tool, chain breaker, repair kit, tyre levers, toothbrush, lube, pump, a couple of old brake pads, a shoelace a couple of bungees ......... there's probably more!



That's a good starter... I generally carry some good chord when riding, the one that lives in the Bakfiets is rated for 500kg. Possibly overkill there, but still. I'll make sure I have several lengths of thin 25-50kg chord when touring.

Slightly off topic but what is a good cable cutter, for inner or outer cables?


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## Blue Hills (7 Dec 2018)

Good tip on the oily rag


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## Andy in Germany (7 Dec 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Quite. And for the same reason I don’t take a mallet for my tent stakes. Mostly you can do this with your shoe, but it’s my way of going over to other campers and breaking the ice by asking to borrow theirs. Sometimes the cultural and social aspect of touring is the biggest part. Invites to supper and coffee happen you know.



But that would mean_ talking to people I don't know_. I'm on _holiday _for goodness sake...


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## Andy in Germany (7 Dec 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Good tip on the oily rag



There's a potential market there for pre oiled rags...

Reminds me. What sort of Chain lube?

I appreciate this will get me branded as a heretic because it's almost as controversial as H*lm*ts but I generally use WD40, as everything else seemed to act like a glue for road dirt and crud. What do people recommend?


----------



## raleighnut (7 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> This is another issue I've never had, despite having a pretty heavily loaded Xtracycle at times. What causes a broken spoke?
> 
> I've also been fairly cautious about using a spoke key without some kind of tool to tell me what is happening in the wheel when I turn it. How do you tighten spokes without turing the wheel into a Pretzel?
> 
> ...



The screwdriver bit holder/knives on mine lock at the fully extended point then fold 180 degrees back into the handle, also with being a standard bit holder it will accept Allen key/Torx bits.


----------



## tom73 (7 Dec 2018)

Not done any touring but plenty of walking and day's out in out the way placers. I never go without a my good old Swiss Army knife. Save me a few times inc on holiday. Can't help think it would be handy when touring.
I did come access this the other day looked a handy thing to have too. https://full-windsor.co.uk/collections/frontpage/products/the-muncher-titanium-multi-utensil
They do a few other nice looking stuff too.


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## 8mph (7 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> Reminds me. What sort of Chain lube?


As a rule, I would use wet lube if it's going to be wet and dry lube if it's dusty or sandy. I've over oiled the chain only to pick up a load of sand before which I hope to avoid repeating as it's not possible to clean off by the side of the road, even with WD40 and a rag.


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## mjr (7 Dec 2018)

tom73 said:


> Not done any touring but plenty of walking and day's out in out the way placers. I never go without a my good old Swiss Army knife. Save me a few times inc on holiday. Can't help think it would be handy when touring.


There's a thread in another forum about knives being confiscated from cycle tourists at ports. Didn't happen to me last time: we were waved into the security post, made to park up and walk through a scanner arch, then told to ride on. No-one checked the bikes at all.  (Previous times, we've been directed to bypass the security shed.)


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## mjr (7 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> I appreciate this will get me branded as a heretic because it's almost as controversial as H*lm*ts but I generally use WD40, as everything else seemed to act like a glue for road dirt and crud. What do people recommend?


I mostly use TF2 lately.

There is a WD40-branded chain lube. I wouldn't use the regular spray can because it seemed to act like a glue for road dirt and crud, but local conditions vary. The only thing worse was when I used GT85 and I could hear a scraping noise immediately, until I applied a real lube. I guess any lubricating effect of GT85 was insufficient for that bike.


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## Andy in Germany (7 Dec 2018)

Just checked Knife laws for Japan:



> *Japan*
> Any fixed knife containing a blade length of 15 cm or more requires permission from the prefectural public safety commission in order to possess. Permission requirements also apply to any type of pocket knife over 6 cm (including Automatic Knives), spears over 15 cm in blade length, and Japanese glaves.[32] All knives with a blade length over 8 cm are prohibited from being carried, under a crime law,[33] with an exception for carrying for duty or other justifiable reasons. Possession is considered a petty crime and is not usually punishable by prison time. However, in cases where assault occurs with the knife, there is a penalty of up to 2 years prison or up to a ¥300000 fine. Folding knives with a blade length less than 8 cm (such as Swiss Army knives) are permitted, while SAK with a lock blade are prohibited from being carried.


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## tom73 (7 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> There's a thread in another forum about knives being confiscated from cycle tourists at ports. Didn't happen to me last time: we were waved into the security post, made to park up and walk through a scanner arch, then told to ride on. No-one checked the bikes at all.  (Previous times, we've been directed to bypass the security shed.)



Good pt can see it benign issue at ports. My mind is on touring here so not thought about that. Then again anything they don't like the look of and they can take it off you. So you just don't know what's best sometimes and as you pt out it can be very hit and miss.


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## tom73 (7 Dec 2018)

@Andy in Germany sounds about the same general knife laws as here in the uk covering carrying of them in public places.


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## MichaelW2 (7 Dec 2018)

In addition to the bike specific tools I carry a mini leatherman. They have full size needle nose pliers with sharp cable cutters, a metal file, small knife blade and some kind of can opener thing. Having a "dirty" blade is useful if you like to cook with a clean one.
Mini Leathermans have a handle that folds in half lengthwise. Currently out of production, about £70 if you can find one. Maybe the Squirt will suffice.
Prep your bike with anti-rotation star washers on the racks. Bolts can back out under stress.
replace at least two of your short waterbottle cage M5 bolts with long ones for rack replacement.
Take a bit of wire (for holding stuff under tension), some cable ties, a meter or so of duck tape, spare brake and gear inner cables, a cut down old toothbrush, a piece of rag and small amount of hand cleanser (freebee stuff at shows) . I carry some little freebie bike grease pods
You should carry a small bottle of bike lube. You can generally extract enough petrol or diesel from a nozzle to clean your chain.


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## tyred (7 Dec 2018)

Apart from the obvious things like puncture repair kit, chain tool and a few spare links, spoke wrench and a few allen keys or spanners depending on what holds your particular bike together, a roll of electrical insulating tape has many potential uses and those little bottles in which e-cigarette liquid are sold in can be filled with oil, takes up little space and has an excellent dropper for lubing a chain or anything else you might need to add a few drops of oil to. Anyone who uses an e-cig should be happy to give you a few empty ones. A pair of small pliers can make it easy to remove the thorn or whatever sharp object caused the puncture.


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## Blue Hills (7 Dec 2018)

tyred said:


> A pair of small pliers can make it easy to remove the thorn or whatever sharp object caused the puncture.



I use a swiss army knife for those duties.Flat screwdriver bit for easing out most things.


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## MichaelW2 (7 Dec 2018)

Some one asked about spoke failure and repair. I forgot to mention that I carry a roadside cassette removal tool (nbt2).
Spokes can fail if your chain falls onto them and gouges the metal. Extra thick touring spokes resist this better than thinner racing style spokes.
Most spoke breakage is rear wheel drive side.
Only a special tool can remove the cassette of rear sprockets.
Spoke replacement is easy but getting the tension correct and keeping the wheel round takes some fine tuning with the spoke key but no other tools.


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## Blue Hills (7 Dec 2018)

MichaelW2 said:


> Some one asked about spoke failure and repair. I forgot to mention that I carry a roadside cassette removal tool (nbt2).
> Spokes can fail if your chain falls onto them and gouges the metal. Extra thick touring spokes resist this better than thinner racing style spokes.
> Most spoke breakage is rear wheel drive side.
> Only a special tool can remove the cassette of rear sprockets.
> Spoke replacement is easy but getting the tension correct and keeping the wheel round takes some fine tuning with the spoke key but no other tools.


Have you used it?

Is it easy to use?

Can only be used on steel frames with an integrated hanger as I understand it - but then that's all I have these days.

Is there any chance of damaging the hanger, particularly if you are prone to tighten things a lot?

Re spoke breakages from the chain going in, see the thread I started a while ago on the plastic protector thingies - my expedition bike has one one and it will be staying there - very seriously thinking of getting another two for two of my other bikes that may see touring duties at some time.


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## classic33 (7 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> There's a thread in another forum about knives being confiscated from cycle tourists at ports. Didn't happen to me last time: we were waved into the security post, made to park up and walk through a scanner arch, then told to ride on. No-one checked the bikes at all.  (Previous times, we've been directed to bypass the security shed.)


Access to the car decks, whilst sailing, is restricted to crew only. Has been for a few years now.


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## mjr (7 Dec 2018)

classic33 said:


> Access to the car decks, whilst sailing, is restricted to crew only. Has been for a few years now.


But they don't stop us taking the knives from our bags with us, or setting off the pannier bombs by remote.


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## classic33 (7 Dec 2018)

mjr said:


> But they don't stop us taking the knives from our bags with us, or setting off the pannier bombs by remote.


Same with any vehicle on a ferry though. The OP is flying though.


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## mjr (7 Dec 2018)

classic33 said:


> Same with any vehicle on a ferry though. The OP is flying though.


When I went through the same security shed in a car this year, they checked the car.


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## PaulSB (8 Dec 2018)

The way I have always viewed the question of what kit to carry is this. What do my abilities allow me to repair? My mechanical knowledge is extremely limited and so I carry:

Tubes x 2
Tyre boot
P******e repair kit
Tyre levers
Pump
Multi-tool with chain breaker
Quick link x 2
Zip ties
Latex gloves
Spare cleat screws
Spare screws, nuts bolts for rack

I have twice lost a cleat screw when touring and also twice lost a fixing screw from my rack.

My bikes are very well maintained by my LBS. The tourer is always serviced ten days ahead of departure. In 40+ years of cycling I have once suffered a mechanical which almost halted me - bottom bracket failure. I somehow limped seven miles home, pushing, pedalling, freewheeling.

I understand many people like to cover every eventuality but can't imagine the need for or myself carrying more than the above. Other than the tools required to reassemble your bikes I would leave the rest at home. Japan is a modern country and if disaster strikes help would not be far away.

If your bikes are thoroughly serviced before departure you're unlikely to need anything more than a spare tube.


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## Blue Hills (8 Dec 2018)

Intrigued by the "bottom bracket failure" paul. I thought they usually degraded gradually in a non critical way, still perfectly rideable albeit with reduced efficiency. What happened, what sort of BB?


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## MichaelW2 (8 Dec 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Have you used it?
> 
> Is it easy to use?
> 
> ...



The NBT2 is the next best thing to a Pamir Hypercracker which is out of production and an essential tool.
NBT2 has very little leverage. It works poorly with horizontal dropouts esp if the front edge is poorly defined and slopes a bit, and you need take care not to bend your QR skewer. It should work better with vertical dropouts . No ides if it is ok with aluminium frames.


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## Andy in Germany (8 Dec 2018)

PaulSB said:


> The way I have always viewed the question of what kit to carry is this. What do my abilities allow me to repair? My mechanical knowledge is extremely limited...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



I'm in the fortunate position of travelling with the Elder Son who is currently four months into his training to be a bike mechanic, so we could carry an entire bike workshop and between us we'd be able to fix most things.

It also means that we can get the bikes in good fettle before we go and make sure any dodgy looking bits are replaced.

On the other hand, although Japan is (in theory) a modern country, it is about 70% mountain and jungle, and that's the bit we're going to be heading for as much as possible, meaning we'll be halfway up a mountain if something does go wrong, so we'll need to be prepared.


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## PaulSB (8 Dec 2018)

I had no idea Japan's terrain and country was like that.


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## HobbesOnTour (8 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> I'm in the fortunate position of travelling with the Elder Son who is currently four months into his training to be a bike mechanic, so we could carry an entire bike workshop and between us we'd be able to fix most things.
> 
> It also means that we can get the bikes in good fettle before we go and make sure any dodgy looking bits are replaced.
> 
> On the other hand, although Japan is (in theory) a modern country, it is about 70% mountain and jungle, and that's the bit we're going to be heading for as much as possible, meaning we'll be halfway up a mountain if something does go wrong, so we'll need to be prepared.



This trip is sounding better and better! 

As a matter of interest, will ye be there for the Rugby World Cup next year?


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## HobbesOnTour (8 Dec 2018)

On the assumption that you need to remove the cassette to replace a broken spoke, there is an alternative in the Fibre Fix "spoke" - in reality a kevlar string solution which can be used without removing the cassette.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF8R7psdtN4


Small enough and light enough not to irritate too many people


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## Blue Hills (8 Dec 2018)

HobbesOnTour said:


> On the assumption that you need to remove the cassette to replace a broken spoke, there is an alternative in the Fibre Fix "spoke" - in reality a kevlar string solution which can be used without removing the cassette.
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF8R7psdtN4
> ...



Yes have heard of it. Sounds like a nice idea as have never yet sorted a spoke myself at home, let alone on the road.

Have you used one?

If so does it work?


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## HobbesOnTour (8 Dec 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Yes have heard of it. Sounds like a nice idea as have never yet sorted a spoke myself at home, let alone on the road.
> 
> Have you used one?
> 
> If so does it work?


I have one here, somewhere, but have never used it on the basis that I'd rather not feck around with my good wheels! Picked it up at an expo type event. 
Just today I picked up a new rear wheel for my commuter bike which means that I now have a spare wheel with a kaput hub to practise my wheel building/adjustment skills. So I imagine that sometime over Christmas I'll be playing with it.

Everything I've read about it says that it can be used without removing the cassette, and that's clear enough for the non-drive side, but as for the drive side? Not sure how easy that is in practise.


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## mjr (8 Dec 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Intrigued by the "bottom bracket failure" paul. I thought they usually degraded gradually in a non critical way, still perfectly rideable albeit with reduced efficiency. What happened, what sort of BB?


Anything with bearings has the potential to fail catastrophically if something near the bearing (cage, cup, cone) corrodes and the first time you notice is when a bit chips off that the bearings proceed to smash into/through other things or jam up against... But happily that's much rarer than going a bit grindy and rough first.


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## classic33 (8 Dec 2018)

Andy in Germany said:


> I'm in the fortunate position of travelling with the Elder Son who is currently four months into his training to be a bike mechanic, so we could carry an entire bike workshop and between us we'd be able to fix most things.
> 
> It also means that we can get the bikes in good fettle before we go and make sure any dodgy looking bits are replaced.
> 
> On the other hand, although Japan is (in theory) a modern country, it is about 70% mountain and jungle, and that's the bit we're going to be heading for as much as possible, meaning we'll be halfway up a mountain if something does go wrong, so we'll need to be prepared.


_"Niitakayama nobore!"_
*Mod Note:*
Translation of the above Japanese text: Climb Mount Niitaka!
Interesting link here.


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## classic33 (9 Dec 2018)

classic33 said:


> _"Niitakayama nobore!"_
> *Mod Note:*
> Translation of the above Japanese text: Climb Mount Niitaka!
> Interesting link here.


Watching this at the time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Countdown_(film)

Which is where I got it from.


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## Andy in Germany (9 Dec 2018)

PaulSB said:


> I had no idea Japan's terrain and country was like that.



Not many people do: to be fair the Japanese gov't has put a lot of effort into covering as much as possible with concrete over the last 50 years, so it isn't immediately obvious, but there are miles upon miles of mountains with almost no-one living in them. That's the point of taking the bikes, because otherwise we'll be stuck in the ugly bits that everyone knows about.

To give you some idea, type 'Ise, Japan' into Google Earth. Ise is where my Inlaws live and it is as as ugly as most Japanese towns, but if you scroll south and west you'll see the sort of places we're aiming for.



HobbesOnTour said:


> This trip is sounding better and better!
> 
> As a matter of interest, will ye be there for the Rugby World Cup next year?



Thanks... We're not actually sure when we'll be going next as we have an imminent house move and we will certainly avoid the country when there's big sporting events because it makes it unbearable, so we'll be unlikely to go next year certainly avoid it in 2020 when the Olympics move in.


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## Dave 123 (9 Dec 2018)

alicat said:


> A tyre boot is something that you can put inside the tyre to stop a bulge getting bigger until you can replace the tyre. I use cloth from an old airbed. No idea if that is strong enough.
> 
> Edit - apparently and perhaps obviously, it's to repair a small cut until you can replace the tyre.
> 
> Here is Park Tools' offering. I still favour finding something homemade.



I once used a business card that had just been handed to me 5 minutes before by the London and Essex branch of the tandem club.
It was exciting going down hill at 30 mph relying on a bit of card!


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## PaulSB (11 Dec 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Intrigued by the "bottom bracket failure" paul. I thought they usually degraded gradually in a non critical way, still perfectly rideable albeit with reduced efficiency. What happened, what sort of BB?



Apologies only just spotted this. It was at least 16 years ago so I can't recall the type of BB. I was riding a much loved, now stolen, Marin San Rafael.

I think most would know the slight "sloppy" feeling on the downward pedal stroke which, in my experience, is the first indication the BB needs attention. In this instance the BB suddenly went from fine to very loose with a significant amount of movement on the down stroke. Imagine riding with a BB which hasn't been tightened and you have the picture. It was pointless trying to pedal uphill so I walked up, freewheeled down and pedalled very inefficiently and slowly on the flat.

I was seven miles from home and it was so cold my water bottle started to freeze!! Never forgotten that.


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## Blue Hills (11 Dec 2018)

Thanks for info paul. I've been lucky I suppose. Only ever got as far as an apparent grindiness in the bearings, then checked cranks for the slight tell-tale slight side to side wobble/play.


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## united4ever (14 Dec 2018)

sounds cool and all. Is cycling big in Japan as in people doing 100km plus rides at the weekend and cycling clubs? I lived in Kyushu before but wasn't into cycling then so never really noticed many lycra clad cyclists going out at the weekend or even people touring. 

The hills are fairly unavoidable I guess given the flat areas tend to be so developed. That would be tough but I think staying at a ryokan and getting in a hot spring after a day on the bike would be the perfect recovery.


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## freiston (4 Jan 2019)

Regarding tyre boot material - I've heard good reports of using pieces cut from plastic milk cartons and so I carry a piece (cut to slide into a bag). I carry duct tape wrapped around an old plastic membership card and I also carry an old small puncture repair kit tin with spare screws, nuts, bolts and washers in it - for carriers, mudguards, water bottles, light fittings etc. As mentioned up-thread, a spare cleat bolt too.


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Jan 2019)

An insulated cup is good for touring in colder months. Grab a hot chocolate at a cafe or make one in a hostel. Then you can have that hot drink at the perfect moment during the day.


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## rollingthru (6 Jan 2019)

I found a multi-purpose tool helpful, such as a Leathermen out of Portland Oregon. I got an adapter that excepts 1/4” bits. I also got a 1/4” drive bit to allow metric sockets on “male end” of drive bit. Never had to use it yet, but I don’t have that much experience touring yet.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2019)

freiston said:


> Regarding tyre boot material - I've heard good reports of using pieces cut from plastic milk cartons and so I carry a piece (cut to slide into a bag). I carry duct tape wrapped around an old plastic membership card and I also carry an old small puncture repair kit tin with spare screws, nuts, bolts and washers in it - for carriers, mudguards, water bottles, light fittings etc. As mentioned up-thread, a spare cleat bolt too.



The new plastic £5 and £10 notes work well as tyre boots.


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## Bored Man (7 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> The new plastic £5 and £10 notes work well as tyre boots.



 WoW how the other life live..


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## Mike Ayling (9 Jan 2019)

Dave Davenport said:


> I've had problems trying to use a chain splitter that's part of a multi-tool so carry a separate one, only thing I can think of that hasn't already been mentioned is a tyre boot or two.


Australian bank notes are made of a tough plastic. They make great tyre boots!
Mike


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## froze (19 Jan 2019)

While a mylar wrapper is pretty tough when you try to tear it, they don't do so well with pointy things penetrating it, so I would not use a mylar wrapper or a plastic bill, or other cash made of fabrics, or an old spent tube, etc.; cutting something plastic like a milk jug the edges could rub a hole into the tube as you ride. The Park boot is quite tough, but any boot is strictly an emergency get you someplace to get it fixed type of deal, even the Park boot, which is tough, it's also self sticking and that self sticking only lasts about 2 days then the boot will begin to move...just as any loose boot you created out of whatever will do. And if you are touring you shouldn't be just running on your two main tires and a tire boot for emergencies, you should be carrying a spare tire for those occasions when you have a major issue with a tire. Not saying not to carry a boot, no, carry a boot, but carry a spare tire because that will work a lot better than a boot, and a folding tire can pack quite small but I use steel beaded tires and I have a lighter tire I use for a spare that is steel beaded as well that I folded into a smaller circle and it's attached to the outside of one of my panniers.

As far as tools or repair items goes, what I pack on when I tour is similar to what most people pack. 
Spare tire. 
two spare tubes.
Park Tire boot
Park glueless patches (I know what some of you think of these but I know how to make them last the life of the tube)
2 Soma Steel Core tire levers
VAR tire lever
1 frame pump, and 1 mini pump for backup
Presta to Schrader converter (I make sure I can get air!)
4 FiberFix spokes (some bikes have spoke holders on the frame, if you have those then carry regular spokes)
Park MTB3 mini tool
cheap small folding pliers
pedal tool
couple of spare chain links
a nylon scrubber, actually two, one for dishes and one for chain cleaning
on the above note I carry biodegradable soap and I use that to clean the chain if needed.
several reusable medium size zip ties 
3 feet of black Gorilla tape wrapped around a pencil
lube
hand wipes (I hate gloves, I like to feel what I'm doing)
small bungee cords
spare screws for cleats, racks, bottle cages, fenders, etc.


I do carry some tools for camping like a peg hammer that I could use to beat my bike with it I needed to, and I have a really strong and sharp knife that I could use for something on the bike if needed. I use a fishing rod as a flag pole so it serves double duty. I also carry a S&W 357 mag revolver, but since I don't carry a concealed weapon permit for every state I be in (I do have a concealed permit but not all states recognize other states concealed permits) I keep it unloaded and the bullets in a speed loader in another separate bag (meaning the gun is the handlebar bag and the speed loader is in a pannier, this is the only way it will be considered legal, if both the ammo and the gun are in the same bag many states consider that loaded even if it's not physically loaded), and that is legal from what I've read, when it becomes illegal is if the gun is loaded and concealed; I have no delusions about getting the gun out in time to shoot someone as I'm riding, I read where people think they can, but in reality by the time you know you're being threatened by a motorist it's too late to retrieve the gun even if you don't have to load it; no my gun is for wild animals when I'm camping, those are more of threat than another person is actually. I only carry 6 rounds and no more because ammo is heavy, and if I need more than that I'm probably dead anyways! LOL!!! While a 357 revolver is heavier than smaller pea shooters, those smaller pea shooters may not even stop a raccoon not alone something larger which all it will do is piss off the animal that will come after you, 357 is the smallest load to stop a medium size animal, some claim a 357 can take down a bear...well I don't know, black bear maybe, a grizzly probably not, but I hope to never find out. The reason I put the gun in the handlebar bag is because if I stop at some store or restaurant I can quickly unclip the bag, clip on the shoulder straps, and take it with me much easier than a pannier bag.

I did read here someone took dental floss and a sewing needle...I like that idea and I'll be carrying that too from now on.

I can't see the need for a cassette breaker, or in my case a freewheel breaker, because if I have to do that I still have to walk someplace and buy another freewheel, might as well just let the bike shop fix it since I would have to go there anyways. I also don't see the need to carry around brake blocks since I would be pre tripping my bike before each start of the day I would notice any wear and would eventually make it to a bike shop to replace the blocks.

Of course I carry cash and my card, ID and insurance cards, cell phone, spare bats for the computer, a battery that can be used to charge my phone if needed, flashlights, several different ways to start fire (always good to have the ability to start a fire, and it's always good to have a couple of back up ways to start a fire in case the first way fails), first aid kit, emergency blanket. Ok my minds gone numb, I'm sure i'm forgetting some stuff but I'm too lazy today to go get my bag and pour it all out and start listing it all, so this will have to do. Keep in mind that a lot of this stuff doesn't take that much room, in fact all of this stuff that i mentioned above which I reduce when not touring is this: 
1 spare tube.
Park Tire boot
Park glueless patches 
2 Soma Steel Core tire levers
QuikStik (I don't take this when I tour, doesn't work real well with steel beaded tires)
1 mini pump 
Presta to Schrader converter 
Park MTB3 mini tool
cheap small folding pliers
hand wipes 
money
spare battery for bike computer
cell phone
All of that stuff fits into my seat bag except for the mini pump! And i still have room in the bag left for food, so while it seems like a lot it's not. Oh, I leave the gun at home when I'm not touring.


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## alicat (20 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> I also carry a S&W 357 mag revolver, but since I don't carry a concealed weapon permit for every state I be in (I do have a concealed permit but not all states recognize other states concealed permits) I keep it unloaded and the bullets in a speed loader in another separate bag (meaning the gun is the handlebar bag and the speed loader is in a pannier, this is the only way it will be considered legal, if both the ammo and the gun are in the same bag many states consider that loaded even if it's not physically loaded), and that is legal from what I've read, when it becomes illegal is if the gun is loaded and concealed; I have no delusions about getting the gun out in time to shoot someone as I'm riding, I read where people think they can, but in reality by the time you know you're being threatened by a motorist it's too late to retrieve the gun even if you don't have to load it; no my gun is for wild animals when I'm camping, those are more of threat than another person is actually. I only carry 6 rounds and no more because ammo is heavy, and if I need more than that I'm probably dead anyways! LOL!!! While a 357 revolver is heavier than smaller pea shooters, those smaller pea shooters may not even stop a raccoon not alone something larger which all it will do is piss off the animal that will come after you, 357 is the smallest load to stop a medium size animal, some claim a 357 can take down a bear...well I don't know, black bear maybe, a grizzly probably not, but I hope to never find out. The reason I put the gun in the handlebar bag is because if I stop at some store or restaurant I can quickly unclip the bag, clip on the shoulder straps, and take it with me much easier than a pannier bag.



I'm grateful I've never even seen a weapon that uses a bullet, except when passing hunting shops.


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## HobbesOnTour (20 Jan 2019)

Jeez! I see where I've being going wrong......
357 Magnum: Check!
Spare Brake Pads: Not necessary


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## Andy in Germany (20 Jan 2019)

alicat said:


> I'm grateful I've never even seen a weapon that uses a bullet, except when passing hunting shops.



The police carry them here and I still can't get used to the idea.

Also, bearing in mind the trouble you can get into in Japan for carrying a knife, I think wielding a firearm is probably out of the question...


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## mjr (20 Jan 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Jeez! I see where I've being going wrong......
> 357 Magnum: Check!
> Spare Brake Pads: Not necessary


Well if you need brake pads, simply use the gun to rob another tourist


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## Blue Hills (20 Jan 2019)

>>I can't see the need for a cassette breaker, or in my case a freewheel breaker, because if I have to do that I still have to walk someplace and buy another freewheel, might as well just let the bike shop fix it since I would have to go there anyways.

I thought folks carried these to help with fixing spokes but don't suppose you need one for that as you are carrying the fiberfixes.


HobbesOnTour said:


> Jeez! I see where I've being going wrong......
> 357 Magnum: Check!
> Spare Brake Pads: Not necessary


If your brakes go you just shoot your own wheels out.


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## froze (21 Jan 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Jeez! I see where I've being going wrong......
> 357 Magnum: Check!
> Spare Brake Pads: Not necessary



It's a little difficult to intimidate a mountain lion or a bear by throwing a spare brake pad at it.


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## froze (21 Jan 2019)

Dogtrousers said:


> Firearms wouldn't be much use against British wildlife. The most threatening are midges, which are really small and you'd need a lot of bullets.



I don't live in the UK, I live in America, and here we have all sorts of critters that can hurt you really bad, like bears, mountain lions, panthers, wolves, Coyotes, boar, certain snakes, Bigfoot...well fine Bigfoot is a made up legend, and if there was one I doubt a 357 would be enough to take it down. And since camping means camping in the wild, where wild animals like the ones I mentioned, live, then there is a certain degree of risk. Or what if something happens and I'm stranded for a few days and I run out of food? Ok, now I have an instrument in which I might shoot an animal to eat. There is also the slim possibility of a human predator as well coming up on a isolated camper to perhaps have a spot of tea with me...


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## mudsticks (21 Jan 2019)

Hey 

@froze
That's a pretty comprehensive kit list thanks. 
Always cable or zip ties, and gorilla tape for sure. 

Similarly to others, thankfully no gun, in Europe the most threatening creatures to campers are livestock. 
It's a shame in a way we've got rid of all our top predators. 

There's still dogs to worry about, or humans I spose - But any trouble off the latter and I just bore them into submission with my prattling on 

But are you going to tell us about your secret with the stick on patches?

Tbh I've been pretty lucky with them too.. 

Even using ten in a row and they held OK 
But is there a top tip we are missing ??


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## raleighnut (21 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> I don't live in the UK, I live in America, and here we have all sorts of critters that can hurt you really bad, like bears, mountain lions, panthers, wolves, Coyotes, boar, certain snakes, Bigfoot...well fine Bigfoot is a made up legend, and if there was one I doubt a 357 would be enough to take it down. And since camping means camping in the wild, where wild animals like the ones I mentioned, live, then there is a certain degree of risk. Or what if something happens and I'm stranded for a few days and I run out of food? Ok, now I have an instrument in which I might shoot an animal to eat. There is also the slim possibility of a human predator as well coming up on a isolated camper to perhaps have a spot of tea with me...


Just follow this advice when camping,

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...howtocam.htm&usg=AOvVaw0AvJsxv5-VpsMyR2y8Zy2T


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## mjr (21 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Just follow this advice when camping,
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...howtocam.htm&usg=AOvVaw0AvJsxv5-VpsMyR2y8Zy2T


ITYM http://www.phred.org/~alex/kenkifer/www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/humor/howtocam.htm rather than a google spyware link.


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## raleighnut (21 Jan 2019)

mjr said:


> ITYM http://www.phred.org/~alex/kenkifer/www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/humor/howtocam.htm rather than a google spyware link.


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## classic33 (21 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> I don't live in the UK, I live in America, and here we have all sorts of critters that can hurt you really bad, like bears, mountain lions, panthers, wolves, Coyotes, boar, certain snakes, Bigfoot...well fine Bigfoot is a made up legend, and if there was one I doubt a 357 would be enough to take it down. And since camping means camping in the wild, where wild animals like the ones I mentioned, live, then there is a certain degree of risk. Or what if something happens and I'm stranded for a few days and I run out of food? Ok, now I have an instrument in which I might shoot an animal to eat. There is also the slim possibility of a human predator as well coming up on a isolated camper to perhaps have a spot of tea with me...


You don't have to bother about midges at this time of year though. They're a special breed in parts over here. Out all year round.


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## Rusty Nails (21 Jan 2019)

Don't know if this has been suggested, but a list of bike shops along the route.


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## mudsticks (21 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Just follow this advice when camping,
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi44JCDtf7fAhWsRBUIHSHBC84QFjAAegQICRAB&url=http://www.phred.org/~alex/kenkifer/www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/humor/howtocam.htm&usg=AOvVaw0AvJsxv5-VpsMyR2y8Zy2T



Yup that just about sums up my approach, to camping wherever I like

Only I pretend to be Estonian.

I draw the line at eating other folks pets though.. 
There's no need to antagonise the natives


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## froze (21 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Hey
> 
> @froze
> That's a pretty comprehensive kit list thanks.
> ...



The only times I encounter a dog is when I'm riding then they feel like they have to eat me, it would be impossible for me to retrieve the gun and the quick loader, load it, and shot the dog; equally when loaded for touring it's impossible to outrun a dog so the only 2 options a person has is either carry spray to repel the dog, or to give it a shot with the water bottle and hope it leaves. One female rider encountered a mountain cat and she couldn't out run it, so she dismounted her bike and kept the bike between her and the cat (she wasn't touring), eventually the cat left. But we do have cyclists that get killed by mountain cats here in the US. I think the cat is the biggest problem to a camper, most of the other animals tend to shy away unless you're stupid enough to leave food near you, and once you handle food you have to wash your hands and face to get rid of the odor or the animals will try to get into your tent, and a fabric tent is nothing for them to rip apart; but a cat is unpredictable, they could attack just for the fun of it! Bears tend to be deeper in the woods, but if they smell food they will come; raccoons are also a threat believe it or not, they may be small but if they smell food they will come, and raccoons are all over the place here. Raccoons are deadly too, I saw about a 25 pound raccoon kill a 80 pound German Shepherd, that dog didn't stand a chance! Raccoons are not afraid of people either, they'll come right up to a tent and sniff all along the border for food with you in the tent, I backhanded a raccoon once while I was in the tent because it was sniffing my head, all it did was snort and continue sniffing along the tent! But if a raccoon can kill a much larger dog within 5 seconds of battle believe me it could hurt a human pretty badly.

Stick on patches. First I only buy Park glueless patches, I've tried a lot of other ones including the Lezyne just recently and they all don't last more than about a day, the Park will stay on for the life of tube if done correctly. Putting on a glueless patch is similar to a glue on patch so some of this most of you already know how to do. First thing is you buff the tube; the second thing you do which you can also do with glue on's but most people don't, and that is to clean the area that you buffed with a alcohol pad and then clean your fingertips with it, wait for it to dry which takes about maybe 10 seconds; next peel the backing off by using your fingernail and lifting a corner making sure to touch the least area of the patch as possible (this is why you clean your fingertips); next apply the patch and then press it as hard as you can between your fingers and thumb for 30 seconds; this next part a lot of people don't think about doing with these patches and that is you have to look at the patch after you pressed it, the area that you pressed will have a sort of transparent look to it, sometimes a corner or two of the patch that didn't get covered by your thumb and finger will have a frosty look to it, you have to press those frosty areas again for 30 seconds. That's it. I much prefer glueless patches over glue ons, it takes a little less time but I don't have to bother with finding a dried glue tube, plus a wee bit less space is taken up by the lack of the glue tube. The one thing I do however is get a new ones every season, their cheap to buy so I just get new ones every year and not chance it, though I have used on occasion used ones that were 2 seasons old and they worked just fine, but I did have an issue with one that was 3 seasons old, so from that experience I play it safe and get new ones every year. 

The Lezyne patches were so bad, I was able to peel the patch off, rebuff the tube, clean it and apply a Park glueless patch. Try peeling off and old Park glueless patch on a tube you're discarding, that patch will more then likely take a chunk of tube with it! 3M invented the glueless patch, I used those when they first came out, my first one failed, but then I changed what I did and they worked after that; 3M decided they didn't want to be in the bike business directly so they make them for Park, they use to make them for Specialized Fatboy patches as well not sure if they still do since I haven't been able to find these anywhere for quite a few years. 

I've had as many as 13 to 15 patches on a tube that was my main tube, and that tube was about 8 years old when I finally replaced it which means my oldest patches still holding on that tube were 8 years old, the only reason I had to replace the tube was I got another flat that tore into a preexisting patch, and to patch over a patch simply would not work. I also don't have any problem with having a spare tube in my seat bag that may not get used for a very long time, and it will have a glueless patch sitting on it for that whole time and be perfectly fine when I need to use the tube. 

Of course when I tour, even though I carry a couple of spare tubes, a spare tire, and those patches. I still try to prevent flats as much as possible because flats on a loaded touring bike is a headache and most flats occur on the rear where the panniers and fenders are (I have fenders on the front but no panniers just a handlebar bag), so I use the Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard tires (I tour on a vintage 85 Schwinn Le Tour Luxe and it has the original 27" size wheels, so the Schwalbe is the best tire available for that size, but they are extremely good tires and very long wearing), but I also use RhinoDillos tire liners (I chose these because they have a soft edge that goes against the tube instead of cut end that can rub a hole in the tube as you ride the miles) even though those Marathon tires are very resistant against flats, maybe an overkill on my part but like I said flats are a headache with a loaded touring bike and I would rather avoid it as much as possible. I do not use thorn resistant tubes, I think their too heavy and offer very little in protection, I would rather use that weight by using a tire liner, so I use standard 90-100 gram tubes. So far I haven't had a flat while touring.


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## mudsticks (21 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> The only times I encounter a dog is when I'm riding then they feel like they have to eat me, it would be impossible for me to retrieve the gun and the quick loader, load it, and shot the dog; equally when loaded for touring it's impossible to outrun a dog so the only 2 options a person has is either carry spray to repel the dog, or to give it a shot with the water bottle and hope it leaves. One female rider encountered a mountain cat and she couldn't out run it, so she dismounted her bike and kept the bike between her and the cat (she wasn't touring), eventually the cat left. But we do have cyclists that get killed by mountain cats here in the US. I think the cat is the biggest problem to a camper, most of the other animals tend to shy away unless you're stupid enough to leave food near you, and once you handle food you have to wash your hands and face to get rid of the odor or the animals will try to get into your tent, and a fabric tent is nothing for them to rip apart; but a cat is unpredictable, they could attack just for the fun of it! Bears tend to be deeper in the woods, but if they smell food they will come; raccoons are also a threat believe it or not, they may be small but if they smell food they will come, and raccoons are all over the place here. Raccoons are deadly too, I saw about a 25 pound raccoon kill a 80 pound German Shepherd, that dog didn't stand a chance! Raccoons are not afraid of people either, they'll come right up to a tent and sniff all along the border for food with you in the tent, I backhanded a raccoon once while I was in the tent because it was sniffing my head, all it did was snort and continue sniffing along the tent! But if a raccoon can kill a much larger dog within 5 seconds of battle believe me it could hurt a human pretty badly.
> 
> Stick on patches. First I only buy Park glueless patches, I've tried a lot of other ones including the Lezyne just recently and they all don't last more than about a day, the Park will stay on for the life of tube if done correctly. Putting on a glueless patch is similar to a glue on patch so some of this most of you already know how to do. First thing is you buff the tube; the second thing you do which you can also do with glue on's but most people don't, and that is to clean the area that you buffed with a alcohol pad and then clean your fingertips with it, wait for it to dry which takes about maybe 10 seconds; next peel the backing off by using your fingernail and lifting a corner making sure to touch the least area of the patch as possible (this is why you clean your fingertips); next apply the patch and then press it as hard as you can between your fingers and thumb for 30 seconds; this next part a lot of people don't think about doing with these patches and that is you have to look at the patch after you pressed it, the area that you pressed will have a sort of transparent look to it, sometimes a corner or two of the patch that didn't get covered by your thumb and finger will have a frosty look to it, you have to press those frosty areas again for 30 seconds. That's it. I much prefer glueless patches over glue ons, it takes a little less time but I don't have to bother with finding a dried glue tube, plus a wee bit less space is taken up by the lack of the glue tube. The one thing I do however is get a new ones every season, their cheap to buy so I just get new ones every year and not chance it, though I have used on occasion used ones that were 2 seasons old and they worked just fine, but I did have an issue with one that was 3 seasons old, so from that experience I play it safe and get new ones every year.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your very comprehensive answer. 
I don't get too many flats when touring, but they usually occur when I've gone off road to find somewhere nice to pitch up, and I've encountered some bramble patches. 

Those mountain cats sound scarey, I'd not heard so much about them, even from folks who back pack in The States, and have to be careful of bears. 
. 
That's good, for me cos I'm always looking enviously at the touring / hiking over The Pond, but am unlikely to be making it there any time soon.

So if you could supply a few more horror stories, then that would be really helpful with my aversion therapy!!

Yes clean hands for puncture repairs - definitely, and out of the wind helps too.


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## froze (21 Jan 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Just follow this advice when camping,
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi44JCDtf7fAhWsRBUIHSHBC84QFjAAegQICRAB&url=http://www.phred.org/~alex/kenkifer/www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/humor/howtocam.htm&usg=AOvVaw0AvJsxv5-VpsMyR2y8Zy2T



I've read a lot of websites and books on the subject of touring before I went and bought gear and went touring, they all have their own way to do things, most are pretty similar, just as here our lists are similar, but there are some differences, and some pack guns and some don't, just depends on how you feel about things. If I was in Europe, from what I've read here, wild life is not as threatening as it can be here in the US or Canada, now not everyone tours with a gun of course but most of those people are touring in a large group where having a gun is not allowed and animals tend to shy away from large groups of humans. But touring alone presents some challenges that while rare could occur. It's like this, I use Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard tires with a tire liner, I doubt I will get a flat with that setup, or at least it would be really rare, so why bother carrying a pump, patches, spare tire, and extra tubes? Of course carrying a gun isn't for everyone and in fact with some people I would recommend them not to because they may create more problems than they solve; and some people just have an aversion to guns; and of course some countries you can't have one on you. 

But I've been trained in the military to use guns against people, I've hunted since I was 8 years old! Yes, 8 years old!! and my uncle taught me a lot of stuff long before I even went into the military, So guns to me is a non issue, my wife not so much! LOL! She's a California girl and she simply is afraid of them. Where I was born it wasn't uncommon for a boy to be out shooting with a parent, or in my case an uncle, when they were very young, usually around 7 to 8 years of age they start, and usually a small caliber rifle like a 22 or a 410 shotgun. Areas that hunt a lot have people that have a lot of respect for guns, they're not the ones that go out and do mass shootings, in fact in certain more remote areas of Alaska and Canada (Wyoming due to many recent threats has been trying to do the same thing but is having trouble getting people to accept it) the older high school age boys bring loaded high powered hunting rifles to the bus stop (only one is assigned to carry a rifle), take them onto the bus, take them into the classrooms with them and set them next to their desks, why is that you scream? three words...bears-Grizzlies in particular, wolves and moose, and you never hear of those kids going on a rampage and shooting up the classroom or the school. These bears are moving from more remote areas due to climate change and are now going into areas where more humans are, and bears are the only animal that will intentionally hunt a human, the others will only kill a human out of fear or protection of cubs, but rarely for food, mountain lions if starving and see a human as an opportunity will attack a human for food. This migration of dangerous animals is why Wyoming who never would have considered guns coming to a bus stop and onto the bus in the past are now, problem is most of the population is against it, but when a kid or kids gets hurt or killed at a bus stop they'll change their minds fast, and Wyoming is a huge hunting state so it won't be much of a problem for them to go that route, of course this would only apply to more rural areas. Not much is mentioned about kids taking guns to school because the rest of the US would be in shock, so it's kept real quiet; also keep in mind, these are rural areas, the schools are very small, they're not being bused into Anchorage! Anchorage is far away from these rural areas.

Even though Alaska allows guns for the protection of the kids at a bus stop, the attacks are very rare, I tried to get a number on how many bus stops in rural Alaska were threatened by bears or other wildlife and I couldn't find anything, does that mean it never has happened, or simply not newsworthy, or to remote for the news to even hear about it? I don't know, but even if it never has happened that doesn't mean it will never happen, and it's enough of a concern in those rural areas to address the situation. I do know too that in some less rural areas where law enforcement can get to a bus stop, they actually will have the State Troopers waiting at bus stops just in case of a bear. Again I couldn't find any information if a Trooper ever had to kill an animal, probably for all the same reasons I mentioned earlier. A family I knew that lived in a semi rural area said they had a state trooper waiting at the bus stop every morning for that reason. I think too that if there has been known sightings or attacks in a certain area that would probably be the reason for the state trooper presence. Carrying a gun for a very rare event is similar to having schools where I live that shelter the kids in tornado drills, we've never had a tornado hit a school where I live so why bother with the drills if it's so rare? Yes we've had tornado sightings, and yes they've had bear sightings, heck I believe they've had a lot more bear sightings then we have tornado sightings yet we drill the kids for tornados, I can't even recall when the last time our city has seen a tornado, we've had watches but no sightings. So to say guns aren't necessary for kids protection going to school in case of an animal attack isn't correct.


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## froze (21 Jan 2019)

mudsticks said:


> Thank you for your very comprehensive answer.
> I don't get too many flats when touring, but they usually occur when I've gone off road to find somewhere nice to pitch up, and I've encountered some bramble patches.
> 
> Those mountain cats sound scarey, I'd not heard so much about them, even from folks who back pack in The States, and have to be careful of bears.
> ...



Keep the patches and the tube from getting wet is very important too.

Bears are starting to migrate further south, and their population is booming as are the wolves, not sure about the mountain lion issue; but when I lived in California it was the mountain lion attacks I heard about, not the bear. I rode all over the mountains in Southern California and only once heard a growl, but didn't see what growled, but cats are very stealthy and very difficult to see. The woman I spoke of that used her bike as a shield lived in the same town and rode the same areas I did. In the town where I lived there was a couple of cyclists in the 7 years I was there that were killed by cats. I would probably place the rarity of a cat attacking a person about the same level has a shark attacking someone swimming or surfing in the ocean, it doesn't happen a lot but it does happen.


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## Andy in Germany (21 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> Keep the patches and the tube from getting wet is very important too.
> 
> Bears are starting to migrate further south, and their population is booming as are the wolves, not sure about the mountain lion issue; but when I lived in California it was the mountain lion attacks I heard about, not the bear. I rode all over the mountains in Southern California and only once heard a growl, but didn't see what growled, but cats are very stealthy and very difficult to see. The woman I spoke of that used her bike as a shield lived in the same town and rode the same areas I did. In the town where I lived there was a couple of cyclists in the 7 years I was there that were killed by cats. I would probably place the rarity of a cat attacking a person about the same level has a shark attacking someone swimming or surfing in the ocean, it doesn't happen a lot but it does happen.



We are getting wolves back in this region of Germany. They can swim from France but the Autobahn is killing a lot of them. There's apparently one male lynx nearby looking for love. He'll have to keep looking because the nearest female is in Switzerland.


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## froze (21 Jan 2019)

Andy in Germany said:


> We are getting wolves back in this region of Germany. They can swim from France but the Autobahn is killing a lot of them. There's apparently one male lynx nearby looking for love. He'll have to keep looking because the nearest female is in Switzerland.



If there is a male around there has to be a female around otherwise how did the male get born? A lot of animals stay really well hidden from human eyes, there have been several cases of a few extinct animals being discovered alive. No I can all but guarantee there is a female lynx around just no one has seen her; how many are around is the question, but there is at least one and probably several, and if not then that male is going to die single and there will be no more lynx sightings in Germany.


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## Andy in Germany (21 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> If there is a male around there has to be a female around otherwise how did the male get born? A lot of animals stay really well hidden from human eyes, there have been several cases of a few extinct animals being discovered alive. No I can all but guarantee there is a female lynx around just no one has seen her; how many are around is the question, but there is at least one and probably several, and if not then that male is going to die single and there will be no more lynx sightings in Germany.



We're getting a lot of inward migration because large predators are being encouraged by provision of corridors so they can find new territory in Germany, so they wander from places like France and the Czech republic.

Why no-one has made a 'corridor' over the Autobahn running along the Rhine I don't know: it'd save a lot of wolves.

Or possibly there is one, but all the signs are in German so the French wolves miss it. That sounds more feasible.


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## freiston (22 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> I did read here someone took dental floss and a sewing needle...I like that idea and I'll be carrying that too from now on.


 Whenever I go away for a few days, whether it's on the bike or whatever, I usually pack a small pouch with a few handy things in it including a small sewing kit, 1.5mm dyneema cord, duct tape (wrapped around an old plastic membership card), a couple of mcgizmo clips and a lighter. The cord and mcgizmo clips have come in handy more than once to fashion a washing line in a hotel bathroom.


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## mjr (22 Jan 2019)

freiston said:


> The cord and mcgizmo clips have come in handy more than once to fashion a washing line in a hotel bathroom.


If I've understood what that is, then it can also be used to lash things to the rack if you break a pannier's attachments by cycling it into the end of a bridge (I've seen someone break a pannier that way...)


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## Ice2911 (25 Jan 2019)

tom73 said:


> Not done any touring but plenty of walking and day's out in out the way placers. I never go without a my good old Swiss Army knife. Save me a few times inc on holiday. Can't help think it would be handy when touring.
> I did come access this the other day looked a handy thing to have too. https://full-windsor.co.uk/collections/frontpage/products/the-muncher-titanium-multi-utensil
> They do a few other nice looking stuff too.


Me too very handy the bottle opener tool. Essential when I tour.


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## Gravity Aided (26 Jan 2019)

froze said:


> It's a little difficult to intimidate a mountain lion or a bear by throwing a spare brake pad at it.


I agree, now that mountain lions/panthers have moved into Illinois, though I fear the encounters with human predators more, but when cycling I tend to adopt a grey man approach.


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## mudsticks (26 Jan 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> I agree, now that mountain lions/panthers have moved into Illinois, though I fear the encounters with human predators more, but when cycling I tend to adopt a grey man approach.



Go on then, tell us about the 'Grey man' approach.. 
Or is this just the benefits of becoming middle aged and largely invisible??

I have to admit I quite enjoy that. 

You can slip under the radar far more easily


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## mudsticks (26 Jan 2019)

Ice2911 said:


> Me too very handy the bottle opener tool. Essential when I tour.



And it's a good way of making friends.. Being the one with a corkscrew. 

But bottles caps can be opened with pretty much anything solid enough.
So long as yr thirsty enough.


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## Ming the Merciless (26 Jan 2019)

A flexible adaptable approach, that and a flannel.


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## mudsticks (26 Jan 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> A flexible adaptable approach, that and a flannel.



A friendly smile, and some 'farmer chat' can help with good pitches too


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## rollingthru (1 Feb 2019)

My wife and I seen a large cougar cross our path in Idaho. (Pacific Northwest).
I didn’t have a gun with me and was wishing I did. I thought about taking one for our cross country tour, but after reading a lot about it, decided against it. I can see reasons on both sides of this equation. To be honest though, I was more concerned about bad people as opposed to bad bears and such. Unfortunately we have a few of those in the good ole USA.


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## rollingthru (17 Feb 2019)

froze said:


> I've read a lot of websites and books on the subject of touring before I went and bought gear and went touring, they all have their own way to do things, most are pretty similar, just as here our lists are similar, but there are some differences, and some pack guns and some don't, just depends on how you feel about things. If I was in Europe, from what I've read here, wild life is not as threatening as it can be here in the US or Canada, now not everyone tours with a gun of course but most of those people are touring in a large group where having a gun is not allowed and animals tend to shy away from large groups of humans. But touring alone presents some challenges that while rare could occur. It's like this, I use Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard tires with a tire liner, I doubt I will get a flat with that setup, or at least it would be really rare, so why bother carrying a pump, patches, spare tire, and extra tubes? Of course carrying a gun isn't for everyone and in fact with some people I would recommend them not to because they may create more problems than they solve; and some people just have an aversion to guns; and of course some countries you can't have one on you.
> 
> But I've been trained in the military to use guns against people, I've hunted since I was 8 years old! Yes, 8 years old!! and my uncle taught me a lot of stuff long before I even went into the military, So guns to me is a non issue, my wife not so much! LOL! She's a California girl and she simply is afraid of them. Where I was born it wasn't uncommon for a boy to be out shooting with a parent, or in my case an uncle, when they were very young, usually around 7 to 8 years of age they start, and usually a small caliber rifle like a 22 or a 410 shotgun. Areas that hunt a lot have people that have a lot of respect for guns, they're not the ones that go out and do mass shootings, in fact in certain more remote areas of Alaska and Canada (Wyoming due to many recent threats has been trying to do the same thing but is having trouble getting people to accept it) the older high school age boys bring loaded high powered hunting rifles to the bus stop (only one is assigned to carry a rifle), take them onto the bus, take them into the classrooms with them and set them next to their desks, why is that you scream? three words...bears-Grizzlies in particular, wolves and moose, and you never hear of those kids going on a rampage and shooting up the classroom or the school. These bears are moving from more remote areas due to climate change and are now going into areas where more humans are, and bears are the only animal that will intentionally hunt a human, the others will only kill a human out of fear or protection of cubs, but rarely for food, mountain lions if starving and see a human as an opportunity will attack a human for food. This migration of dangerous animals is why Wyoming who never would have considered guns coming to a bus stop and onto the bus in the past are now, problem is most of the population is against it, but when a kid or kids gets hurt or killed at a bus stop they'll change their minds fast, and Wyoming is a huge hunting state so it won't be much of a problem for them to go that route, of course this would only apply to more rural areas. Not much is mentioned about kids taking guns to school because the rest of the US would be in shock, so it's kept real quiet; also keep in mind, these are rural areas, the schools are very small, they're not being bused into Anchorage! Anchorage is far away from these rural areas.
> 
> Even though Alaska allows guns for the protection of the kids at a bus stop, the attacks are very rare, I tried to get a number on how many bus stops in rural Alaska were threatened by bears or other wildlife and I couldn't find anything, does that mean it never has happened, or simply not newsworthy, or to remote for the news to even hear about it? I don't know, but even if it never has happened that doesn't mean it will never happen, and it's enough of a concern in those rural areas to address the situation. I do know too that in some less rural areas where law enforcement can get to a bus stop, they actually will have the State Troopers waiting at bus stops just in case of a bear. Again I couldn't find any information if a Trooper ever had to kill an animal, probably for all the same reasons I mentioned earlier. A family I knew that lived in a semi rural area said they had a state trooper waiting at the bus stop every morning for that reason. I think too that if there has been known sightings or attacks in a certain area that would probably be the reason for the state trooper presence. Carrying a gun for a very rare event is similar to having schools where I live that shelter the kids in tornado drills, we've never had a tornado hit a school where I live so why bother with the drills if it's so rare? Yes we've had tornado sightings, and yes they've had bear sightings, heck I believe they've had a lot more bear sightings then we have tornado sightings yet we drill the kids for tornados, I can't even recall when the last time our city has seen a tornado, we've had watches but no sightings. So to say guns aren't necessary for kids protection going to school in case of an animal attack isn't correct.


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## rollingthru (17 Feb 2019)

Actually the moose is the animal to fear in rural areas (or not so rural) in Alaska.
They are VERY unpredictable when there are “babies” around. I was walking my German Shepherds once and had one charge me, it was encounter I will never forget! After cleaning my shorts I went and got bells to put on the dogs collars to try and prevent it from happening again.


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## Gravity Aided (17 Feb 2019)

And then there's the Armadillo. 
Like a moving speed bump. 
That carries leprosy.
Thanks to global warming, now as far north as Illinois.


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## 12boy (17 Feb 2019)

I would wax my chains and make sure as many hex headed bolts have been replaced with Allen's as possible. If your bike wheel have nuts in lieu of QRs, I would cut down an old 15mm wrench. I find multitools to be hard to use with any force so I carry 3, 4 , 5 and 6 mm allens, which cost little and weigh little too. A blue paper shop rag is useful and I like steel tire irons. Couple of zip ties, screwdriver, Park patches and a lezyne pump and thats it for my tool roll. Haven't yet been touring but with back packing the grams add up to ounces and the ounces to pounds.


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## Blue Hills (17 Feb 2019)

I thought allen and hex were the same thing?


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## youngoldbloke (17 Feb 2019)

- there's a big difference between hex-headed and hex-socket (allen) bolts.


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Feb 2019)

A 1:100,000 map of the areas you are touring in.


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## Blue Hills (17 Feb 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> - there's a big difference between hex-headed and hex-socket (allen) bolts.


by hex socket i assume you mean bolts with a hole in which standard bike hex keys on a workshop or mini tool like Topeaks wonders will fit into? I thought all modern bikes used these?


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## mjr (17 Feb 2019)

12boy said:


> I would wax my chains and make sure as many hex headed bolts have been replaced with Allen's as possible. If your bike wheel have nuts in lieu of QRs, I would cut down an old 15mm wrench.


No need to mess about cutting good tools: a 15mm adjustable 4" weighs 45g then you can also replace all those horrible water-holding rust-prone Allen mushroom heads with hex heads and not carry another tool. Or if you really want allen keys, a 6" right-angled hex bit driver is 60g and each bit 6g. I carry the driver for the PZ2 bit and a deep 10mm socket to adjust the chain tugs.


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> A 1:100,000 map of the areas you are touring in.


And a lensatic compass, maybe a map measurer as well.


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## 12boy (18 Feb 2019)

Sorry if I have been misleading......by hex bolt I mean a bolt with a hexagon shaped head. An Allen wrench fits inside the hexagonal opening inside an Allen bolt. For example, my Brompton brakes cable clamp was a hex headed 10 mm bolt which required a 10 mm wrench. By replacing it with an Allen bolt I could use a 4mm Allen wrench and avoid carrying the 10 mm hex wrench. Many vintage bikes used hex headed bolts which can be replaced with Allen type bolts. Didn't someone (Mark Twain?) Say " England and America...two countries separated by a common language".


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## Blue Hills (18 Feb 2019)

Thanks for the clarification yukon.

Yes an old shimano rear mech of mine had a hex head bolt which was also very shallow holding the jockey wheels. A nightmare to remove even with an appropriate spanner. The topeak alien 2 tool used to have small spanners, maybe still has, but agree that it is better if they aren't needed.


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## mjr (18 Feb 2019)

12boy said:


> For example, my Brompton brakes cable clamp was a hex headed 10 mm bolt which required a 10 mm wrench. By replacing it with an Allen bolt I could use a 4mm Allen wrench and avoid carrying the 10 mm hex wrench.


And now you're trying to put the same force through a near fit into a water-retaining circle of 4mm sides instead of an exact fit onto dry 10mm sides: what could possibly go wrong?


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

12boy said:


> Sorry if I have been misleading......by hex bolt I mean a bolt with a hexagon shaped head. An Allen wrench fits inside the hexagonal opening inside an Allen bolt. For example, my Brompton brakes cable clamp was a hex headed 10 mm bolt which required a 10 mm wrench. By replacing it with an Allen bolt I could use a 4mm Allen wrench and avoid carrying the 10 mm hex wrench. Many vintage bikes used hex headed bolts which can be replaced with Allen type bolts. Didn't someone (Mark Twain?) Say " England and America...two countries separated by a common language".


G.B. Shaw.


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

mjr said:


> And now you're trying to put the same force through a near fit into a water-retaining circle of 4mm sides instead of an exact fit onto dry 10mm sides: what could possibly go wrong?


I have failed to witness this water retention, except when the allen bolt is mounted vertically. Which seems to be where they use it in quill stems. A wee bit of wax on a swab will be helpful.


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## youngoldbloke (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> I have failed to witness this water retention, except when the allen bolt is mounted vertically. Which seems to be where they use it in quill stems. A wee bit of wax on a swab will be helpful.


If one is really concerned about socket head bolt water retention issues (mjr?) you could always order these to protect all such bolts on the bike:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M5-M6-M8...ER-CAPS-HEAD-SCREWS-ALLEN-BOLTS-/201469659621
(actually very useful for the stem pre load bolt)


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## mjr (18 Feb 2019)

youngoldbloke said:


> If one is really concerned about socket head bolt water retention issues (mjr?) you could always order these to protect all such bolts on the bike:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M5-M6-M8...ER-CAPS-HEAD-SCREWS-ALLEN-BOLTS-/201469659621
> (actually very useful for the stem pre load bolt)


Or I could just leave the hex head bolts on, instead of replacing them with an inferior head type as suggested and then solving all the consequential problems.

You can see why bike makers like them: sell more shoot to resolve unnecessary problems and more chance of people breaking bike parts so buying new ones. How clueless are buyers and reviewers not to challenge this?


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

Because Allen bolts are better, more ubiquitous, and easier to use, or just because you are required to use the proper wrench for the job, instead of rounding off the corners of the hardware with an adjustable wrench?


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

And are less likely to have a tool come in contact with paintwork.


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## mjr (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> Because Allen bolts are better, more ubiquitous, and easier to use, or just because you are required to use the proper wrench for the job, instead of rounding off the corners of the hardware with an adjustable wrench?


By what measure are allen bolts "better" or "easier to use"? Assertion doesn't make it so.

Bad workmen blame their tools: used correctly (pushing on the near end of the adjustable jaw) or even incorrectly, any half-decent adjustable wrench is far less prone to rounding off corners of hex heads than most allen keys on those heads because the forces are spread over a longer flat face and it can be adjusted to deal with oversize or undersize heads better than an allen key can adjust to slightly out-of-spec holes. And I'm sure we've all seen someone ping an allen wrench across the floor (mangling the head a little more as it goes) because they hadn't got it inserted properly, but how often do you ever see an ordinary wrench do that?

And "required to use the proper wrench for the job" suggests you've never seen anyone jam a torx bit in or try to use a pin socket on an allen head!


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## mjr (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> And are less likely to have a tool come in contact with paintwork.


Use a washer under the head or a track-style head.


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

mjr said:


> By what measure are allen bolts "better" or "easier to use"? Assertion doesn't make it so.
> 
> Bad workmen blame their tools: used correctly (pushing on the near end of the adjustable jaw) or even incorrectly, any half-decent adjustable wrench is far less prone to rounding off corners of hex heads than most allen keys on those heads because the forces are spread over a longer flat face and it can be adjusted to deal with oversize or undersize heads better than an allen key can adjust to slightly out-of-spec holes. And I'm sure we've all seen someone ping an allen wrench across the floor (mangling the head a little more as it goes) because they hadn't got it inserted properly, but how often do you ever see an ordinary wrench do that?
> 
> And "required to use the proper wrench for the job" suggests you've never seen anyone jam a torx bit in or try to use a pin socket on an allen head!


Because an adjustable wrench always has play in the working surfaces ,a bodger's delight if I ever saw one. The use of Allen wrenches in inappropriate fashion pales in comparison to the number of times I have seen the adjustable misused. And assertion aside, hex heads are harder to use in many situations, water bottle cages spring to mind. Speaking of assertion, much of this obviously has to do with convenience and personal preference, I would say.


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

mjr said:


> Use a washer under the head or a track-style head.


More hardware to mess up more paintwork.


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## mjr (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> Because an adjustable wrench always has play in the working surfaces


Are we talking about the same thing? One of these:





I can see how the adjustable jaw might have a little play when the adjuster gets worn, but you wrote "surface*s*" and what other surface might possibly have play in it? The other surface is one piece with the handle.



Gravity Aided said:


> And assertion aside, hex heads are harder to use in many situations, water bottle cages spring to mind.


Well, you can't use an adjustable on them, but my long socket (which I'm carrying for other reason) does them fine and the hex head is usually a lower profile than an allen bolt's mushroom head, so it lets you use fancy cage types where otherwise the mushroom head scratches the bottle.



Gravity Aided said:


> Speaking of assertion, much of this obviously has to do with convenience and personal preference, I would say.


Well, if you prefer allen heads, they're your bikes and all power to you, but there's little justification for telling people to modify perfectly good vintage bikes by swapping their hex heads for the nasty little things.


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## Gravity Aided (18 Feb 2019)

The adustable wrench has two surfaces for either side of the hex bolts. As for messing up the vintage nature of a bicycle, Allen hardware has been around since 1910. My justifications are stated above. Although in allserall seriousness I would say that hex hardware is probably just as good, in many cases.


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## Blue Hills (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> Because an adjustable wrench always has play in the working surfaces ,a bodger's delight if I ever saw one. The use of Allen wrenches in inappropriate fashion pales in comparison to the number of times I have seen the adjustable misused. And assertion aside, hex heads are harder to use in many situations, water bottle cages spring to mind. Speaking of assertion, much of this obviously has to do with convenience and personal preference, I would say.


Yes you have to pay a lot of money for an adjustable with minimal wobble. Most are terrible.


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## Profpointy (18 Feb 2019)

Re: allen bolts vs normal bolts. For what it's worth typical allen screws (12.9) are stronger than common or garden good quality normal screws (10.8). This isn't per se a specific feature of allen bolts but "typically" they are better bolts. A mate of mine very much into motorsport tended to replace anything important on his racing car with allen screws of the higher spec. Ergo avoiding allen screws because you percieve them as weaker is misguided (unless for some unlikley reason they happen to be lower grade)

I replaced all the hexagon (ie normal spanner hed) screws on my bike, and the horrid made-of-cheese cross head screws with the corresponding allen screws to simplify my tool need. The only spanner fittings reamainig are my wheel nuts


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## raleighnut (18 Feb 2019)

Profpointy said:


> Re: allen bolts vs normal bolts. For what it's worth typical allen screws (12.9) are stronger than common or garden good quality normal screws (10.8). This isn't per se a specific feature of allen bolts but "typically" they are better bolts. A mate of mine very much into motorsport tended to replace anything important on his racing car with allen screws of the higher spec. Ergo avoiding allen screws because you percieve them as weaker is misguided (unless for some unlikley reason they happen to be lower grade)
> 
> I replaced all the hexagon (ie normal spanner hed) screws on my bike, and the horrid made-of-cheese cross head screws with the corresponding allen screws to simplify my tool need. The only spanner fittings reamainig are my wheel nuts



Good quality allen keys are a must too, just because they have a plastic 'T' handle doesn't make them a good quality tool. I'd also advocate binning them when worn unless you have access to a decent bench grinder to remove the worn section.


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## Profpointy (18 Feb 2019)

raleighnut said:


> Good quality allen keys are a must too, just because they have a plastic 'T' handle doesn't make them a good quality tool. I'd also advocate binning them when worn unless you have access to a decent bench grinder to remove the worn section.



Agree, crap tools are always to be avoided !


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## mjr (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> The adustable wrench has two surfaces for either side of the hex bolts.


Yes, and how can the surface thatˋs part of the handle develop "play"? 

I give up. This is too much like drawing teeth.


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## Blue Hills (18 Feb 2019)

mjr said:


> Yes, and how can the surface thatˋs part of the handle develop "play"?
> 
> .



er. well I think you need two bits.

The play is between the two.

I very rarely have need of an adjustable anyway.

In fact the only one I really use is for holding BB removers and cassette removers. That's a Bahco - very good but not cheap.


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## classic33 (18 Feb 2019)

Gravity Aided said:


> *Because an adjustable wrench always has play in the working surfaces ,a bodger's delight if I ever saw one. *The use of Allen wrenches in inappropriate fashion pales in comparison to the number of times I have seen the adjustable misused. And assertion aside, hex heads are harder to use in many situations, water bottle cages spring to mind. Speaking of assertion, much of this obviously has to do with convenience and personal preference, I would say.


One reason I don't use them on anything that has already been tightened. Preferring the correct sized spanner, anyday. Three sizes, 17mm, 15mm & 10mm, fit 80% of the bolts on the bike. 

Two allen keys, 5 & 6mm do the rest.


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## classic33 (18 Feb 2019)

mjr said:


> Yes, and how can the surface thatˋs part of the handle develop "play"?
> 
> I give up. *This is too much like drawing teeth.*


Pliers are good for that.

Edited to highlight.


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## 12boy (19 Feb 2019)

The heart wants what the heart wants.


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## classic33 (19 Feb 2019)

12boy said:


> The heart wants what the heart wants.


That's soft and squidgy though!


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## Gravity Aided (19 Feb 2019)

And people can say what they want, I don't mind carrying a couple of spanners. If I need to lose weight off the bicycle, I'll worry about losing some of that big weight on the saddle.


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## 12boy (21 Feb 2019)

Here's my tool roll. Note the artisanly crafted nonGMO boxwood handle wrench held together with Vegan JB weld.


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## Gravity Aided (21 Feb 2019)

Very chic.


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## Gravity Aided (21 Feb 2019)

Are you planning on waxing the tool roll? Would be sign to others of proper curation of your bespoke nature regarding tools and cycling.


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## 12boy (21 Feb 2019)

I spent $1.25 on the cloth and $6 on the fabric glue. Mostly glued, little stiching since I'm lazy. I was toying with waxing it but why? It really does work well, though. I can toe strap it to saddle rails if there's no bag handy. I am clumsy and drop little bolts, washers and nuts and they are hard to find in grass and weeds. Leaving the roll flat gives me a place to keep stuff when fixing a flat or whatever. Somehow I misplaced my Lezyne pump and bought another one, then found the first, so I had to make another tool roll. When I go out of town I also stick an innertube in there, but since I have bikes with 16, 20 26 and 700c wheels I only do it when I will be gone for a while. That blue thing is a bit of paper shop cloth, which is good for abdominal emergencies.


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## Gravity Aided (22 Feb 2019)

It's a pretty snazzy rig, no doubt. Well thought out.


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## overmind (22 Feb 2019)

HobbesOnTour said:


> I'm a great believer in Murphy's Law and plan accordingly



I rather subscribe to O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law. "Murphy was an optimist".

*Edit:* (from the link above)
*MURPHY'S LAW OF MULTIPLES*
If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way will promptly develop.


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Feb 2019)

12boy said:


> The heart wants what the heart wants.



Careful the heart may beat you up during exercise.


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