# Which fails first for YOU on a hill-your legs or breathing capacity?



## night cycler (15 Jun 2022)

For the last 7 rides I've cycled up the same hill. It has been debatable for me to say which was becoming exhausted first-my legs or breathing. They were about the same.

Yesterday the bresthing was the 'weakest link' but not by much. Relavant or not, it was the latest time I have tried it-about 21.50 hrs.

That sort of poses another question. Ignoring the sun/temp factor, do you find that at certain times of day this sort of thing can be easier/harder? Is it at all possible that the air quality is better/worse at certain times of day *even if away from traffic? *


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## Alex321 (15 Jun 2022)

It's always the legs which are the weakest link for me.

But yes, air quality does vary by time of day, particularly during hay-fever season. Even if you don't suffer from it, the amount of pollen in the air does make a difference. And I don't think you really can ignore the sun/temperature factors.


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## Tenkaykev (15 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> For the last 7 rides I've cycled up the same hill. It has been debatable for me to say which was becoming exhausted first-my legs or breathing. They were about the same.
> 
> Yesterday the bresthing was the 'weakest link' but not by much. Relavant or not, it was the latest time I have tried it-about 21.50 hrs.
> 
> That sort of poses another question. Ignoring the sun/temp factor, do you find that at certain times of day this sort of thing can be easier/harder? Is it at all possible that the air quality is better/worse at certain times of day *even if away from traffic? *



Humidity is a factor. It's more difficult to exercise in humid conditions.
EDIT: It's breathing first we me, then the legs.


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## Fab Foodie (15 Jun 2022)

Hard to say, but even with CHD it seems my lungs (former heavy smoker) limit my effort, the legs are strong enough.
Losing 15kg would help....


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## CXRAndy (15 Jun 2022)

I depends on whether you're trying to set a new pb each time. If its just to get up, set gearing where you can spin over 80rpm without going into the red with heart rate or breathing. So many external factors can affect your riding like others have mentioned.

I have strong legs and have gearing to allow me to keep in my comfort zone for any type of hill or mountain climb.


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## Chris S (15 Jun 2022)

I just get off and use my 24 inch gear. On Saturday I actually overtook somebody struggling up an incline from a canal.


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## MichaelW2 (15 Jun 2022)

With correct use of gears and heart rate monitor, both should fail at the same time.


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## I like Skol (15 Jun 2022)

I don't understand. What does fail mean?


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## night cycler (15 Jun 2022)

I like Skol said:


> I don't understand. What does fail mean?



If for example if I was strugling to breath/short of air *before *reaching the top of the hill then it is the lungs that have 'failed' first. Don't read too deeply in to the word 'fail', just read it in context of the topic.


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## Slick (15 Jun 2022)

Probably the lungs for me on a tough climb, although I do currently have a bit of an issue with a pinched femoral nerve that can take most of the power out of one leg at very short notice.


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## presta (15 Jun 2022)

Neither, it's my intolerance of intense exercise. Even slightly misjudging my pace (on a hill or otherwise) provoked a relapse that would take months to recover from.

One year after I got home from a tour I serviced the bike as usual, then took it out for a test ride before the next trip. As I was in a good mood I unwisely gave it some stick up a local hill whilst I was out, then lived to regret it. I felt ok whilst I was riding, but I was unable to recover for months afterwards, and the tour I was planning went out of the window until the following year.


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## night cycler (15 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I depends on whether you're trying to set a new pb each time. If its just to get up, set gearing where you can spin over 80rpm without going into the red with heart rate or breathing. So many external factors can affect your riding like others have mentioned.
> 
> I have strong legs and have gearing to allow me to keep in my comfort zone for any type of hill or mountain climb.



My goal is always to get up to the top without stopping. I have no interest in the time it takes. I always go up 'this' hill in my lowest gear. Maybe I should try going up in 2nd and see what effect it has? I can always drop it back down near the top of the hill if need be?


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## night cycler (15 Jun 2022)

presta said:


> Neither, it's *my intolerance of intense exercise. *Even slightly misjudging my pace (on a hill or otherwise) provoked a relapse that would take months to recover from.
> 
> One year after I got home from a tour I serviced the bike as usual, then took it out for a test ride before the next trip. As I was in a good mood I unwisely gave it some stick up a local hill whilst I was out, then lived to regret it. I felt ok whilst I was riding, but I was unable to recover for months afterwards, and the tour I was planning went out of the window until the following year.



What is the cause of the intolerance? I have never heard of that until now.


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## Rain drops (15 Jun 2022)

Breathing and muscle output are obviously interlinked. I now find that breathing difficulties will be brought on in hill climbing if I try to use all of my available leg strength. Short power bursts O.k., but not for long.
The deciding factor seems to be decreasing maximum heartrate with age (unavoidable) which can no longer keep up with full power demands. I think of myself now as an old and tired steam engine which will quickly exhaust its boiler of steam, which the clinkered old firebox cannot produce more fast enough. i.e. pace at a sustainable power output which must inevitably slowly continue to decrease each coming year.

All the formulas for maximum heart rate v. age are hardly very realistic., since people are all at different states of fitness. The one I find most accurate for giving average (sustainable for as long as a climb may take) max. figures is, 207 - 0.7 x age. For me, at 84, it gives a sustainable figure in the 140's. That matches what I find, while still allowing for sudden power bursts of shorter duration up to around 158 ish. I hope to maintain that for at least a couple more years. (Then, perhaps, an electric bike?)


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## ColinJ (15 Jun 2022)

[Assuming no underlying health or injury problem...] 

If you use low enough gears and you ride slowly enough then there is no reason for your legs _OR _your lungs to 'fail' even on a very steep a hill. You might find it difficult to balance though!

If you are using high gears and/or are trying to go as quickly as possible, then... it depends!


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## fossyant (15 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I depends on whether you're trying to set a new pb each time. If its just to get up, set gearing where you can spin over 80rpm without going into the red with heart rate or breathing. So many external factors can affect your riding like others have mentioned.
> 
> I have strong legs and have gearing to allow me to keep in my comfort zone for any type of hill or mountain climb.



Comfort Zone...tisk tisk.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Jun 2022)

If you push a bigger gear lower cadence then it’s your muscular endurance being tested and you heart rate will be lower for a given uphill speed than a lower gear spun at high cadence. Thus you can shift the pressure from cardio to muscular or vice versa, depending on how things are going.


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## a.twiddler (15 Jun 2022)

Since I am by any measure not an athlete, I aim to just get up the next hill. After many years of riding upright bikes with the intent of staying in the saddle I have transferred to riding a recumbent where there is no choice. I don't know about legs vs breathing but I find that if I heat up too much that becomes a decisive factor for me. Therefore, low gears, moderate cadence have been my companions. It was always a point of honour to somehow get up hills without walking. Nowadays I look at it like this. 
Everybody has a certain number of shots in their magazine. The stronger and fitter (and probably younger, too) that you are, the more shots you will have. So if you have a long hilly route you have to pace yourself or you will run out of ammo. I can tolerate a certain number of climbs but after a certain point it becomes much harder to get up them. On reflection it's the legs, definitely the legs. I've even considered the wisdom of stopping to rest on some of the early hills, or even walking part way up them, to conserve resources for later. When I was younger some part of my inner self would scream, "Heresy!" and start looking for a match to light the bonfire, at such ideas. 
The ideal is to arrive at your destination with some to spare, in case you come across some monster climb that you hadn't bargained for just before you get there.
But then, I don't take part in competitions. I ride to please myself, and the pleasure (and the pain) is all mine.


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## Arrowfoot (15 Jun 2022)

Legs first and after legs are conditioned after a few rides , lungs capacity is the next challenge.


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## Joffey (15 Jun 2022)

Breathing or Heart Rate - both linked I suppose. But they always give up first.


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## roadrash (15 Jun 2022)

Always breathing for me, a former smoker....


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## oldwheels (15 Jun 2022)

Both together mostly.
As ColinJ suggests take it slowly in a low gear. I discovered this by accident when climbing and chatting to somebody on foot and I hardly noticed the effort.
At least you have the option of getting off and walking as my generation were brought up to accept this.
On my trike I have very nearly come to a halt by not being able to turn the pedals any more on a steep hill. Not a good idea on a single track road with too much traffic.
This was with 22 front to 32 rear on 20 inch wheels and 152 cranks.


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## mustang1 (15 Jun 2022)

Ah breathing, always the breathing. Gotta lose weight.


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## iandg (15 Jun 2022)

I can go for miles but I'm not very strong so use low gears. If the hill's too steep for my lowest gear then I have to get off and push. So I suppose it's my legs.


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## Mike_P (15 Jun 2022)

Legs I suppose but generally I watch the speed, if it's heading to walking pace why bother cycling up a hill that is miles from home and the energy saved will be useful later in the ride. Certainly those hills I have walked up I have far faster Strava times than many others.


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## CXRAndy (15 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> My goal is always to get up to the top without stopping. I have no interest in the time it takes. I always go up 'this' hill in my lowest gear. Maybe I should try going up in 2nd and see what effect it has? I can always drop it back down near the top of the hill if need be?



I learnt what gearing meant when I first went to Tenerife, I nearly collapsed from exhaustion trying to get up the slopes of mount Teide. 

I was pretty fit but just didn't have low enough gearing for a at the time 100kg rider to spin a 34t and 32t cog. The next year I returned with a bike that now had a 28t chainring and 40t cog. I could now spin over 85rpm and be in Z2/Z3 for heart rate for a climb which took over 3.5 hours to complete. Since then I've further developed my bike to have triple chainset. There is no incline that evens concerns me these days. 

Other riders scoffed at my setup, but were all impressed when I arrived at the top of mountains without looking like I was going to keel over. 

Ive climbed Mont Ventoux, Galibier, Glandon, Alpe D Huez, Mt Teide. 

as for UK hills-pah piddly little bumps

Im not the quickest being a 'Clydesdale' rider, but I can do it in comfort, enjoy the effort. 

Alter your gearing so you can maintain a high cadence with low-ish effort


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## FrothNinja (15 Jun 2022)

Lungs, never had the legs go so far. I do feel it in the inner thigh sometimes - especially if I have done a reasonable amount of hills already


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## Fredo76 (16 Jun 2022)

When I started cycling again, I had to re-learn using gears to avoid the worst of the gasping, as my legs were made for grinding! I once rode up the back side of Gate's Pass in a 52x15, sitting down, mind you! That was nearly 50 years ago, but some leg strength remains, enough to tire out my lungs, at least.


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## Illaveago (16 Jun 2022)

I've never given it much thought .
If I try to do a high cadence I soon become exhausted and stop. Yet if I keep plodding on at walking pace gradually pushing the pedals round I can keep climbing . So I assume that it must be my legs yet I will be gasping at the end . Once the hill has leveled out it would be a slow recovery before normal pace was resumed .


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## numbnuts (16 Jun 2022)

The battery


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## ianrauk (16 Jun 2022)

Legs always. I'm a pretty good climber even if I say so myself, having tested my self a good few time climbing mountains in full touring mode. Not as quick as some, but quicker then others. I've not had to walk many times (legs gone before lungs) but not adverse to do so for a bit of a rest,


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## kingrollo (16 Jun 2022)

As a asthmatic - always my lungs.

Only time I really feel legs is back to back cycling days


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## FishFright (16 Jun 2022)

roadrash said:


> Always breathing for me, a former smoker....



Same here . who knew eh? lol


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## Peter Salt (16 Jun 2022)

Depends how you ride. I believe the general rule is:
- strong legs but lacking in the cardiovascular department: Use harder gear and lower cadence,
- strong heart but legs lagging behind: Use easier gear and higher cadence.
But it might be one of those things that many think true yet not technically proven by research?


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## night cycler (16 Jun 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> If you push a bigger gear lower cadence then it’s your muscular endurance being tested and you heart rate will be lower for a given uphill speed than a lower gear spun at high cadence. Thus you can shift the pressure from cardio to muscular or vice versa, depending on how things are going.



I went out late last night specifically to try what we had discussed.

The hill is 3.5 miles away so I was warmed up enough to try. I set off up the hill in 2nd gear, and as I approched the top I found I was more comfortable. Easier on the breathing, heart rate felt less, a bit slower cadence and only a bit more effort for the legs, which was fine.

Overall I felt that this was a more balanced way of climbing. It is surprising how much difference one gear can make, at least on hills. Thank you.


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## night cycler (16 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I learnt what gearing meant when I first went to Tenerife, I nearly collapsed from exhaustion trying to get up the slopes of mount Teide.
> 
> I was pretty fit but just didn't have low enough gearing for a at the time 100kg rider to spin a 34t and 32t cog. The next year I returned with a bike that now had a *28t chainring and 40t cog. * I could now spin over 85rpm and be in Z2/Z3 for heart rate for a climb which took over 3.5 hours to complete. Since then I've further developed my bike to have triple chainset. There is no incline that evens concerns me these days.
> 
> ...



I'm interested in understanding what you have explained. It seems like your gear set-up is spot on.

To fully benefit from what you have shared I need to understand the terminology.

You have a 28T chain ring-so I am guessing 28 teeth. The 40T cog, I am unsure about this. I am guessing the rear cassette has *one gear *with 40 teeth which is very low? Unsure about the other gears on your cassette, but I assume they are an integral part of your ideal gearing arrangement?


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## Mike_P (16 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> I felt that this was a more balanced way of climbing. It is surprising how much difference one gear can make, at least on hills.


What were the gradients of that hill like given most are not a constant gradient - those with the steeper bit at the foot are the easier IME and those which get steeper as they go on are typically the ones that I struggle on. Was zig zagging on what I thought was the steepest bit of one only to go round a bend and see it get steeper; Shanks's Pony called into action.


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## Legs (16 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> You have a 28T chain ring-so I am guessing 28 teeth. The 40T cog, I am unsure about this. I am guessing the rear cassette has *one gear *with 40 teeth which is very low? Unsure about the other gears on your cassette, but I assume they are an integral part of your ideal gearing arrangement?


Yep, you've got this right. Andy's chainring is 28 teeth and his biggest sprocket is 40 teeth, which gives him a minuscule gear suitable for riding up the sides of houses. To put it into perspective, standard MTB gearing in days of yore used to be 42/32/22 chainrings and 11-28T cassette; a 'granny gear' of 22x28 is still (even accounting for slightly smaller wheels) bigger than Andy's 28x40.


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## night cycler (16 Jun 2022)

Hi Mike,

It is quite appropriate that you should ask that question today. Only *this morning* I was thinking about signs indicating the steepness of a hill. I guess it was in my mind because I have been focussing my attention on this specific local hill recently.


I had wondered if there is a website that has details of this sort of thing, but am in doubt.


I have no detail of the 'steepness' other than to say it feels like 45 degrees when on it! I can however tell you it is the A6178 Alma Rd in Rotherham, S,Yorks. See screen shots. The photo with the smoke rising is the view looking down the hill.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

Legs said:


> To put it into perspective, standard MTB gearing in days of yore used to be 42/32/22 chainrings and 11-28T cassette;



Rear mtb was standard 11-34t for 9 speed, thus 22 x 34 low gear. This is from 2003 (in my case), thus not quite days off yore, just 19 years ago.


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## night cycler (16 Jun 2022)

@Legs
Thank you for claryfying about Andy's gear set-up. It has got me interested. I am going to assume that he has at least 2 chainrings on the bike in question, maybe tripple


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## Mike_P (16 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> I had wondered if there is a website that has details of this sort of thing, but am in doubt.



Strava would be one


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

@Legs 

Current bike setup Kinesis Tripster ATR V2 titanium. Started out front double chainring 40/28t Two front gears one with 28t another 40 teeth. On the rear 11 speed 11-40 cassette. Hardest gear 11t easiest 40t.

I now have triple front chainrings. 50/36/26 I use an 11-40 for going abroad mountain climbing. UK I tend to fit 11-32t rear cassette.

My lowest gear ratio in gear inches is something around 17". I can literally spin up 40% gradient inclines. I very rarely use this bottom ratio. I tend to ride using the 36t chainring. however I can and have on occasion, instead of stopping for a breather on a mega incline, just dropped onto the smallest chainring, eased back my effort into Z2 heart rate and kept going. 

This is my bike ready for use this week.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> It is quite appropriate that you should ask that question today. Only *this morning* I was thinking about signs indicating the steepness of a hill. I guess it was in my mind because I have been focussing my attention on this specific local hill recently.
> 
> ...


Alma Rd
It has a section of around 16%, but only for a short bit. Piddly little hill


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I can literally spin up 40% gradient inclines



You’ve ridden up that Harlech road then? Impressive!


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

Now this is a steep lane 

Ideally named 'Jackass lane' Just outside Ewden village near Sheffield

Riders were literally falling over when I did it back in 2017 tour of Yorkshire sportive. I had to weave around bodies and bikes 







Some 46%  at its steepest point, I didn't get off or stop, just kept pedalling whilst trying to hold the front wheel on the road.

Has you can see, even with such ridiculous gradients my ave was 61rpm and max 91rpm cadence. 

I've only ever come across one other section of road as steep in Gran Canaria


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You’ve ridden up that Harlech road then? Impressive!



No but see above post from Tour of Yorkshire. Very steep hill I got up


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## rockyroller (16 Jun 2022)

not the legs. if I ever stop on a climb, it's to settle my breathing


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## rockyroller (16 Jun 2022)

side note - it's kinda fun having a cpl nemesis hills in my life to climb regularly. used to have commute that was mostly uphill on the way home, 13 miles. I was able to train on it & eventually was able to ride home with confidence. then I changed bike w/ diff. gearing & had to go thru a whole new training cycle, to get back to that comfort level. right now I have a hill in the forest & a hill on my way home work commute. haven't done the work commute since covid, tho


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## Legs (16 Jun 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Rear mtb was standard 11-34t for 9 speed, thus 22 x 34 low gear. This is from 2003 (in my case), thus not quite days off yore, just 19 years ago.


Ha yes, my MTB predates that!


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## Legs (16 Jun 2022)

It's worth noting that Strava itself doesn't compute accurate %age steepness for very steep and sinuous roads: this one (which I've successfully ridden up but never managed to ride down without dismounting!) is not much more than 30%. The sign at the top says 20%, but it's definitely more than that! At that steepness, it makes a significant difference whether the sine or the tangent of the angle is being stated, and there's no consistency between signs.


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## Soltydog (16 Jun 2022)

Some good advise on here, but it's whatever works for you. I used to grind up hills in a low cadence, but now I get in a nice low gear & spin up with a high cadence & find it easier. You may get up quicker grinding a higher gear, but may be more fatigued, so the next part of your ride could be slower  For me it's always the legs that go first, but it's gotta be a real steep gradient ie 30%+. Try & keep your breathing steady, not always easy I know, but it does help


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

Legs said:


> View attachment 649251
> 
> It's worth noting that Strava itself doesn't compute accurate %age steepness for very steep and sinuous roads: this one (which I've successfully ridden up but never managed to ride down without dismounting!) is not much more than 30%. The sign at the top says 20%, but it's definitely more than that! At that steepness, it makes a significant difference whether the sine or the tangent of the angle is being stated, and there's no consistency between signs.
> View attachment 649252



I'd forgotten that one Tim. Devils elbow was an absolute brute. I did get up it . Ask Tommy and Dean where they went


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## stephec (16 Jun 2022)

I like Skol said:


> I don't understand. What does fail mean?



It's not an option.


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## ColinJ (16 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> Some 46%  at its steepest point


That must be by taking a tight bend on the inside? Overall, that is a fairly ordinary climb. I think it would be like measuring the bend at the top of the 25% ramp at Rawtenstall Bank (a.k.a. Mytholm Steeps), Hebden Bridge, on the inside of the bend. That is probably 45% too...





... but nobody in their right mind would ride that tight in to the edge of the road. Deliberately, that is... I had one idiot motorist overtake me on the bloody bend, thus stopping me swinging wide - I fell off!


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## presta (16 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> What is the cause of the intolerance? I have never heard of that until now.



Overtraining.


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## PaulSB (16 Jun 2022)

Neither for me as a general rule. Other than the Fred 2021 I can't remember the last time I had to dismount.

On the Fred I had to stop about 50 metres into Hardknott as I cramped in both legs. It was get off or fall off. Guy behind me tried to tough it out and fell off!!! 😂 After a few minutes stretching I got back on, rode to the 35% section, started to cramp as soon I hit it so got off and walked the 2-300 metres before I could get on again. After 95+ miles I deemed this acceptable! 🤣


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

Legs said:


> Ha yes, my MTB predates that!



Ah 8 speed or earlier


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## lazybloke (16 Jun 2022)

I typically climb hills at a speed that's slow enough to not tax my heart/lungs.
I've still been beaten by some stiff climbs recently, always when close to the bonk after going fast for a long ride.
I don't fully understand the science of the bonk, but I assume this is a muscular limitation.


A very different thing happens when I'm fit enough to attack hills, eg before the pandemic and in my mid-to-late 40s. Then it was my heart and lungs that seemed to limit my performance. Never stopping me, but putting a gentle brake on my speed.

If I look back at my Strava PBs on stiff local climbs, I see average heart rates over 170 bpm, and peaks over 190.
Don't think I should be doing this in my early 50s, so I think my best performance days are now well behind me!


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

ColinJ said:


> That must be by taking a tight bend on the inside? Overall, that is a fairly ordinary climb. I think it would be like measuring the bend at the top of the 25% ramp at Rawtenstall Bank (a.k.a. Mytholm Steeps), Hebden Bridge, on the inside of the bend. That is probably 45% too...
> 
> View attachment 649255
> 
> ... but nobody in their right mind would ride that tight in to the edge of the road. Deliberately, that is... I had one idiot motorist overtake me on the bloody bend, thus stopping me swinging wide - I fell off!



That looks like the bend (memory) There were at least five riders just on and after that bend splayed all over the road. So lucky no one fell off directly in front of me.

I wasn't expecting such a steep introduction to the climb. I was talking to a club mate, enjoying the views of the reservoir, then boom!


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

lazybloke said:


> I don't fully understand the science of the bonk,



When the body has burnt all of its glycogen reserves in the liver and muscles. You at that point literally grind to a stop. Usually at the point of most physical demand, steep hill, stiff headwind.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

lazybloke said:


> I've still been beaten by some stiff climbs recently, always when close to the bonk after going fast for a long ride.



You would have been beaten by gentle climbs if bonking. A single climb won’t make you bonk, you need to have been out on the bike for some time.


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Jun 2022)

lazybloke said:


> If I look back at my Strava PBs on stiff local climbs, I see average heart rates over 170 bpm, and peaks over 190.
> Don't think I should be doing this in my early 50s, so I think my best performance days are now well behind me!



No reason why not assuming you are saying 190 bpm is your max heart rate. I wouldn’t go hitting it every day but if you’ve remained fit and are well no harm in pushing it every now and again in your 50s. If just climbing off sofa it’s a different story.

Too many avoid some high intensity exercise as they get older. You don’t need much but if you neglect it, it’s often the reason people see declines in average speed on the bike before they hit 70.


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## ColinJ (16 Jun 2022)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You would have been beaten by gentle climbs if bonking. A single climb won’t make you bonk, you need to have been out on the bike for some time.



I was defeated by a crossroads on an A-Road. The bonk hit me just short of it and I was so confused by the time I got to it that I couldn't figure out how to get across safely! 

I had to retreat to a nearby supermarket for emergency refuelling supplies. 30 minutes later I was good to go.


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## CXRAndy (16 Jun 2022)

I try and race 3 times a week. I normally hit 98% max HR for a few minutes in these 20min to 1hour races. I have a rest day doing something else physical on the other days, weight training, easy riding


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## midliferider (17 Jun 2022)

I find it always easy to cycle in the morning, earlier the better. There are very many reasons for this. Psychologically you feel that you have plenty of time to do it, so there is no hurry, its less busy and scenery is beautiful in the morning. This is specially important in the summer.
What stops first depends on the steepness and length of the hill. In a short, steep hill it is usually breathing. In a long climb it is legs.


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## night cycler (17 Jun 2022)

CXRAndy said:


> I try and race 3 times a week. *I normally hit 98% max HR *for a few minutes in these 20min to 1hour races. I have a rest day doing something else physical on the other days, weight training, easy riding


The monitor obviously provides the figures, but how do we know/establish where max is? I assume we are all different.


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## midliferider (17 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> The monitor obviously provides the figures, but how do we know/establish where max is? I assume we are all different.



There are various ways to find it. Some simple, some complicated. Here is one.

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/fitness/fitness-basics/target-heart-rates


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## vickster (17 Jun 2022)

midliferider said:


> There are various ways to find it. Some simple, some complicated. Here is one.
> 
> https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/fitness/fitness-basics/target-heart-rates



Isn’t 220-age utter bunkum?


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## CXRAndy (17 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> The monitor obviously provides the figures, but how do we know/establish where max is? I assume we are all different.



We are all different, max HR could be anything from 140bpm to over 200bpm for a healthy adult of any age. 

The maximum number ive ever seen is 181bpm at maximum effort for a sustained period. Yesterday my peak was 175bpm during the race.

220-age is utterly unreliable. General rule is HR maximum begins to decline as we age, but there are many exceptions


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## midliferider (17 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Isn’t 220-age utter bunkum?



It is just a guide. It depends on other factors such as your resting heart rate etc. How accurately one wants to determine depends on one's requirements. I run and cycle to maintain a healthy lifestyle. I don't call it training. Because I am not training for anything. I don't even bother to see what my speed is.


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## night cycler (17 Jun 2022)

Can anyone recommend a 'stand alone monitor' as opposed to something attached to strava or whatever? Just for the bike use. No reason other than my own curiosity.


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## midliferider (17 Jun 2022)

I think my son uses an apple watch. He has all the information, speed, elevation, heart rate etc.


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## vickster (17 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> Can anyone recommend a 'stand alone monitor' as opposed to something attached to strava or whatever? Just for the bike use. No reason other than my own curiosity.



Lots of Fitness trackers measure heart rate
Apple Watch will (I have one) but it’s a premium product that has to be paired with an iPhone so may not be what you want.
what exactly are you looking for (and budget), many work best with a smart phone (which do you have?)


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## Dogtrousers (17 Jun 2022)

Brain gives up first. 

It doesn't happen all that often but every now and then, on a big hill, typically late in a ride, a little voice in my head shouts "stop this, it's stupid", and off I get.


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## midliferider (17 Jun 2022)

Dogtrousers said:


> Brain gives up first.
> 
> It doesn't happen all that often but every now and then, on a big hill, typically late in a ride, a little voice in my head shouts "stop this, it's stupid", and off I get.



That is exactly my point. Listen to your body. It will tell you when to stop.


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## night cycler (17 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Lots of Fitness trackers measure heart rate
> Apple Watch will (I have one) but it’s a premium product that has to be paired with an iPhone so may not be what you want.
> what exactly are you looking for (and budget), many work best with a smart phone (which do you have?)



I use android system as opposed to Apple. I have Samsung S5


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## Alex321 (17 Jun 2022)

vickster said:


> Isn’t 220-age utter bunkum?



Pretty well. Particularly as you get older.

There are other formulae which better account for that, but they still only give a rough average for any age, and yours may be way different. I know mine is much higher than any of the formulae would suggest.

And BTW, there is nothing much you can do to affect your max heart rate. It is a part of your physiology, and is unaffected by fitness or health, but does generally decline with age. The only reason max heart rate matters is that it defines the "zones" within which you will exercise.


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## vickster (17 Jun 2022)

night cycler said:


> I use android system as opposed to Apple. I have Samsung S5



There are plenty of Samsung watches which compete with the Apple Watch. Might be an option if you want some compatibility


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## CXRAndy (20 Jun 2022)

Here is HR capture from this mornings race 






Near 2 mins at flat out effort up a 5 min climb


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## HLaB (13 Jul 2022)

It has to be a very, very steep road before I'll have a complete failure on road but then legs will give up the legs will 'give up the ghost' . Off road often though my brain will tell me when to stop, whereas a skilled rider would push through.


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## Time Waster (13 Jul 2022)

Wouldn't get a phone brand tracker/ watch just for interest tracking. You don't have to use them for compatibility. Garmin or fitbit. Fitbit of just basic as their app gives more lifestyle things. Garmin if you think you're likely to get hooked on data. Or whatever app you prefer.

Or get amazfit for lot less.

I often think that of my legs go it's because my cv system ran out of capacity to supply what my legs need. I don't think you can put it down to one element of a linked system personally. Not for us mere mortals. Not without the techies of a TdF team analysing your stats.


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## alex_cycles (19 Jul 2022)

vickster said:


> Isn’t 220-age utter bunkum?



Yes It absolutely is. 
I’m 52, so 220-52 gives 168 bpm. I exceed that almost every time I ride. I must be dead.

I did a CX race last week for 40 minutes with an average heart rate of 183, max was 194.
My working max is 197, which I see a few times per year and get close to probably a couple of times a month. But the highest I’ve ever seen (which I took to be an outlier) was 214.

In my opinion the only way to know your maximum heart rate is to monitor it whenever you do activities and adjust accordingly. As long as you’re not grossly unfit or have a medical condition, pushing yourself a bit is not a problem (particularly if you do it incrementally rather than trying to take large jumps in one go.)


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