# The More Cash Than Brains Track Bike The Worx WX-R Vorteq $39,000 ? :(



## Anthony.R.Brown (4 Aug 2021)

https://www.wx-r.com

So if you are one of those riders with more Cash than Brains ? then go get yourself a Worx WX-R Vorteq for $39,000 ? 
I Guarantee a good rider would go just as fast using a Steel framed track bike with good components they don't have to be the best,position is about the most important thing the rest is Marketing garbage!


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## classic33 (4 Aug 2021)

£27,000, peanuts...

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TEvqX1cLN9E


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## midlife (4 Aug 2021)

Doesn't the UK track bike have to be available to buy to qualify for the Olympics. About £40,000?


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## Cycleops (4 Aug 2021)

And it doesn’t even have brakes, ask the Danes


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## classic33 (4 Aug 2021)

Cycleops said:


> And it doesn’t even have brakes, ask the Danes


Track bikes have brakes!


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## Cuchilo (4 Aug 2021)

Jealousy is an awful trait .


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## Anthony.R.Brown (4 Aug 2021)

Cuchilo said:


> Jealousy is an awful trait .



Looks like one of the Worx WX-R Vorte Sales people have logged in


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## Anthony.R.Brown (5 Aug 2021)

Cycleops said:


> And it doesn’t even have brakes, ask the Danes



And after a person has paid out $39,000 for the thing they then have to spend even more money on pedals ?


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## T4tomo (5 Aug 2021)

Oh christ he's off on one again.. yes Anthony aerodynamics of the bikes itself is completely irrelevant to the overall aerodynamics of the rider and bike combined.


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## CanucksTraveller (5 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> I Guarantee a good rider would go just as fast using a Steel framed track bike with good components they don't have to be the best,position is about the most important thing the rest is Marketing garbage!



Well that's that decided! Still, I bet all the Olympic teams in the last 25+ years are gutted that they wasted all that time, effort and cash on R+D, testing etc. It turns out they should have just ridden a steel bike and the records would have just kept falling anyway.


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## MichaelW2 (5 Aug 2021)

As used by the Malaysian Olympic track cycling team. Does some Malaysian car company magnate own Vortex ?


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## Bonefish Blues (5 Aug 2021)

CanucksTraveller said:


> Well that's that decided! Still, I bet all the Olympic teams in the last 25+ years are gutted that they wasted all that time, effort and cash on R+D, testing etc. It turns out they should have just ridden a steel bike and the records would have just kept falling anyway.


Agreed. Case proven by OP yet again. Thread closed


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## Anthony.R.Brown (5 Aug 2021)

CanucksTraveller said:


> Well that's that decided! Still, I bet all the Olympic teams in the last 25+ years are gutted that they wasted all that time, effort and cash on R+D, testing etc. It turns out they should have just ridden a steel bike and the records would have just kept falling anyway.



Yes! they wasted 25+ years for nothing! Eddy Merckx hour record using a Steel Track bike has stood the test of time! the main reason they go so much further is because of what I said above "Position is everything" and the Banned Tri bar position is not allowed if a person wants to try and break Eddy Merckx hour record using a Steel Track bike etc.


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## classic33 (5 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Looks like one of the Worx WX-R Vorte Sales people have logged in


I've nowt to do with them.


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## HMS_Dave (5 Aug 2021)

I hear that TeamGB will be using Elephant Bikes in Paris 2024.


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## CanucksTraveller (5 Aug 2021)

Completely hatstand.


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## cougie uk (5 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> https://www.wx-r.com
> 
> So if you are one of those riders with more Cash than Brains ? then go get yourself a Worx WX-R Vorteq for $39,000 ?
> I Guarantee a good rider would go just as fast using a Steel framed track bike with good components they don't have to be the best,position is about the most important thing the rest is Marketing garbage!
> ...


You don't get it do you ?

The rules say that the bikes have to be available to buy. 

WXR don't actually want any other nations to use their bikes - hence the huge cost. It's the same with all the top bikes in the Games. And if you did have the cash - I bet there's a huge lead time.


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## fossyant (5 Aug 2021)

All bikes have to be available to the public to buy. Team GB have done this with the special projects bikes for years - the bikes, however were incredibly expensive, but they are 'available' to purchase.

Our Ant doesn't like 'progress'


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## Anthony.R.Brown (5 Aug 2021)

It really does get silly the type of bikes they are allowing on the Track...below as an example will be next ?


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## Bonefish Blues (5 Aug 2021)

I'm sure that is completely compliant and it's a timely reminder.

ETA 
But fortunately I have it on good authority that it's irrelevant because it is position on the bike which matters


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## tyred (5 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> It really does get silly the type of bikes they are allowing on the Track...below as an example will be next ?
> 
> View attachment 602782


Bit awkward to fix a rear puncture and nowhere for panniers or saddle bag. 

I'll stick with my Carlton


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## matticus (5 Aug 2021)

Can you get it on a Cross-Country hook? :-/


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## Sunny Portrush (5 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> And after a person has paid out $39,000 for the thing they then have to spend even more money on pedals ?



And a bell


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## matticus (5 Aug 2021)

And reflectors


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## cougie uk (5 Aug 2021)

I think it's probably about time that we level the playing field a bit and make the bikes standard - like the Japanese keirin bikes. 
There is an excellent program on the iPlayer with Hoy going back to his old Keirin school in Japan.


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## Smokin Joe (5 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I think it's probably about time that we level the playing field a bit and make the bikes standard -



Progress comes from innovation. Without that we'd still be riding Penny Farthings.


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## matticus (5 Aug 2021)

innovations in track bikes have negligible impact on bikes that I might ride on the road.

(I'm pretty reluctant to adopt modern tech from the _road _racing! But that's just me and my grumpy old friends.)


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## fossyant (5 Aug 2021)

I'll take all the advancements - MTB's are incredible compared to how they were 10 years ago. The down side is the capability often exceeds the rider's, then you end up in big trouble. It's easy to do.


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## classic33 (5 Aug 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> Progress comes from innovation. Without that we'd still be riding *Penny Farthings*.


They can be awkward at traffic lights/signs that overhang the road.


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## Bonefish Blues (5 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> They can be awkward at traffic lights/signs that overhang the road.


Good for the short-sighted rider, shirley?


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## matticus (5 Aug 2021)

fossyant said:


> I'll take all the advancements - MTB's are incredible compared to how they were 10 years ago. The down side is the capability often exceeds the rider's, then you end up in big trouble. It's easy to do.


How did the track bikes help you?


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## classic33 (5 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Good for the short-sighted rider, shirley?


It's the ducking under that's awkward.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (6 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> I'm sure that is completely compliant and it's a timely reminder.
> 
> ETA
> But fortunately I have it on good authority that it's irrelevant because it is position on the bike which matters



Yes "Position is nearly everything" The main problem with the bike in the photo after all the Carbon component failures we are hearing about ?  is after a few laps the bike in the photo would more than likely leave a trail of Carbon debris all over the Track, for others to hit if they are riding at the same time!


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## Anthony.R.Brown (6 Aug 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> Progress comes from innovation. Without that we'd still be riding Penny Farthings.



If the bike manufacturers can make a buck out it advertising then Yes! the Penny Farthings will be on the Tracks as well as the other Crazy bikes!


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## Bonefish Blues (6 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Yes "Position is nearly everything" The main problem with the bike in the photo after all the Carbon component failures we are hearing about ?  is after a few laps the bike in the photo would more than likely leave a trail of Carbon debris all over the Track, for others to hit if they are riding at the same time!


Ban carbon. Simples


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## cougie uk (6 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Yes "Position is nearly everything" The main problem with the bike in the photo after all the Carbon component failures we are hearing about ?  is after a few laps the bike in the photo would more than likely leave a trail of Carbon debris all over the Track, for others to hit if they are riding at the same time!



There's only been one carbon failure that I've heard of ?

I've broken more metal components than I have carbon. 
And I've never broken carbon fibre.


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## Bonefish Blues (6 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> There's only been one carbon failure that I've heard of ?
> 
> I've broken more metal components than I have carbon.
> And I've never broken carbon fibre.


There you go. Carbon broke. Case proven.


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## cougie uk (6 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> There you go. Carbon broke. Case proven.


It's only because everything is carbon that the sport is so safe these days. Back in the time of metal stems you'd rarely get through a race without something breaking.


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## Bonefish Blues (6 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> It's only because everything is carbon that the sport is so safe these days. Back in the time of metal stems you'd rarely get through a race without something breaking.
> View attachment 602920


Steel you see. Look - the rider is barely inconvenienced, and may indeed be riding faster because position.


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## fair weather cyclist (6 Aug 2021)

Is this another thread where people with no money display their jealousy towards rich people and somehow end up criticising how the rich spend their money rather than blaming themselves for not working a little harder/smarter in life?

Pass, not going to waste my time reading 3 pages of this


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## vickster (6 Aug 2021)

I think it’s more the OP hasn’t realised the world has moved on in the last 25 years and is somehow outraged that it has?


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## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Pass, not going to waste my time reading 3 pages of this


<Man Fails To Stop Reading Thread After Waving Goodbye>

;-)


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## fair weather cyclist (6 Aug 2021)

In fact I didn't read the 3 pages, just the comments that came after mine.

You think you got me there, didn't you


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## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> In fact I didn't read the 3 pages, just the comments that came after mine.
> 
> You think you got me there, didn't you


Just make your mind up, that's all I ask!!! If I post, will you read it??

We need clarity - not an ambiguous WAVE emoji, dammit!


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## fair weather cyclist (6 Aug 2021)

matticus said:


> If I post, will you read it??



Probably not because I'm just going to put you in my ignore list after I post this reply


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## classic33 (6 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> If the bike manufacturers can make a buck out it advertising then Yes! the Penny Farthings will be on the Tracks as well as the other Crazy bikes!
> 
> View attachment 602914


Go for the real thing.


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## Bonefish Blues (6 Aug 2021)

Burn him. Posted a picture of the c word...


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## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Probably not because I'm just going to put you in my ignore list after I post this reply


I'm still no clearer what the WAVE means ...

Oh dear, it was such a beautiful relationship. How tragic that it might be scuppered by miscommunications ...


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## matticus (6 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Burn him. Posted a picture of the c word...


Campag?? 🤷‍♂️


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## Anthony.R.Brown (6 Aug 2021)

Why Carbon Fiber Bikes Are Failing ? 

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/carbon-fiber-bike-accidents-lawsuits/

Laurent Didier’s £8k carbon fibre Trek bike snapped in half...


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## simongt (6 Aug 2021)

I saw a carbon fibre Bianchi in Cycling Plus a couple of years ago with a price tag of £11,000. 
I was talking to an LBS a while back and he knows of a manny who repairs carbon fibre frames, typically about four hundred a year. 
Makes you wonder .


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## vickster (6 Aug 2021)

simongt said:


> I saw a carbon fibre Bianchi in Cycling Plus a couple of years ago with a price tag of £11,000.
> I was talking to an LBS a while back and he knows of a manny who repairs carbon fibre frames, typically about four hundred a year.
> Makes you wonder .


Not necessarily, if the damage is in races. Same would happen to another material in a high speed crash presumably


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## simongt (6 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> Not necessarily, if the damage is in races.


Unlikely to be races in Norfolk, probably just roadies not paying attention to the conditions - !


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## vickster (6 Aug 2021)

simongt said:


> Unlikely to be races in Norfolk, probably just roadies not paying attention to the conditions - !


There aren't many people who specialise in frame repair. He likely gets frames from all over.

There's no bike clubs or racing in Norfolk at all? 🤷‍♀️


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## fair weather cyclist (6 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> There's no bike clubs or racing in Norfolk at all? 🤷‍♀️


Nope, just overweight cyclists who crack their carbon frame bikes and blame the softness of the materials.


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## classic33 (6 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Why Carbon Fiber Bikes Are Failing ?
> 
> https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/carbon-fiber-bike-accidents-lawsuits/
> 
> ...


Maybe he tried running over that shoe.


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## cougie uk (6 Aug 2021)

I had my lovely 653 steel frame corrode where it had been chromed. And it was my summer bike. Don't get that with carbon.


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## mustang1 (6 Aug 2021)

I'm looking for a starter bike. Will that track bike be good for me?


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## cougie uk (6 Aug 2021)

Wait for the Hope track bike's road version to be ready. It's cheaper and more medal winning too.


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## Jenkins (6 Aug 2021)

Is the OP @SkipdiverJohn's lycra wearing alter ego?


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## SkipdiverJohn (7 Aug 2021)

Cuchilo said:


> Jealousy is an awful trait .



Who's jealous? I wouldn't ride one of those carbon TT bike monstrosities even if you gave it to me for free.


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## fair weather cyclist (7 Aug 2021)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Who's jealous? I wouldn't ride one of those carbon TT bike monstrosities even if you gave it to me for free.



Yes and look at those grapes, they're so very sour...


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## Anthony.R.Brown (7 Aug 2021)

simongt said:


> I saw a carbon fibre Bianchi in Cycling Plus a couple of years ago with a price tag of £11,000.
> I was talking to an LBS a while back and he knows of a manny who repairs carbon fibre frames, typically about four hundred a year.
> Makes you wonder .



What makes me sick about the whole thing is that somehow the Carbon bike manufactures are some how able to influence the media, and silence the truth as to just how serious the situation is!,more than likely using some threatening ways like not supplying vital Carbon spares needed to try and fix the problem,after they have sold their products to Cycle shops etc. with them wanting to cancel further orders.
Again money talks "The Root of Evil"


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## cougie uk (7 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> What makes me sick about the whole thing is that somehow the Carbon bike manufactures are some how able to influence the media, and silence the truth as to just how serious the situation is!,more than likely using some threatening ways like not supplying vital Carbon spares needed to try and fix the problem,after they have sold their products to Cycle shops etc. with them wanting to cancel further orders.
> Again money talks "The Root of Evil"


What vital carbon spares ?

Silencing the truth ?

Are you feeling ok ?


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## vickster (7 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What vital carbon spares ?
> 
> Silencing the truth ?
> 
> Are you feeling ok ?


Has he been vaccinated and is now under the control of the overlords?


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## fair weather cyclist (7 Aug 2021)

Let's not shut him down immediately. We may be on to something very funny and entertaining. 

Come on mate, please elaborate. Tell us the truth about the carbon frames lobby.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (7 Aug 2021)

Carbon Fiber Care and Warnings...

http://www.rideyourbike.com/carbonfiber.shtml


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## vickster (7 Aug 2021)

Those Americans seem to be very clumsy huh 

but you did see that your linked page says this…
_Modern (2021) carbon is quite amazing and much safer than older carbon because of better quality control and knowledge from experience. Alway buy from a well known brand and avoid cheap carbon at all costs!_
Which rather impacts your doomsayer message 

I doubt a pro track bike costing $39k is made of Chinarello carbon


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## cougie uk (7 Aug 2021)

I had that Giant TCR. Didn't break for me. 

There's probably millions of CF frames out there. Putting up pictures of a few crashed bikes proves nothing.

You've still not explained the Big Carbon plot. What spares are they not providing and how are they gagging the press ? Throwing Emily Maitless the odd Pinarello ? Giving Jon Snow a Colnago ?


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## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> What makes me sick about the whole thing is that somehow the Carbon bike manufactures are some how able to influence the media, and silence the truth as to just how serious the situation is!,more than likely using some threatening ways like not supplying vital Carbon spares needed to try and fix the problem,after they have sold their products to Cycle shops etc. with them wanting to cancel further orders.
> *Again money talks "The Root of Evil" *


No money, no bike. Whatever the materials used. 

Unless you pinch it.


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## vickster (7 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I had that Giant TCR. Didn't break for me.
> 
> There's probably millions of CF frames out there. Putting up pictures of a few crashed bikes proves nothing.
> 
> You've still not explained the Big Carbon plot. What spares are they not providing and how are they gagging the press ? Throwing Emily Maitless the odd Pinarello ? Giving Jon Snow a Colnago ?


I’d be upset if I were him as he has the Condor titanium I’ve always hankered after


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## vickster (7 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> No money, no bike. Whatever the materials used.
> 
> Unless you pinch it.


Or get it from a skip


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## classic33 (7 Aug 2021)

How about one of these?




Wonder how far it'll go in an hour.


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## Bonefish Blues (7 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I had that Giant TCR. Didn't break for me.
> 
> There's probably millions of CF frames out there. Putting up pictures of a few crashed bikes proves nothing.
> 
> You've still not explained the Big Carbon plot. What spares are they not providing and how are they gagging the press ? Throwing Emily Maitless the odd Pinarello ? Giving Jon Snow a Colnago ?


Thank god you're still alive after what must have been an edge of the saddle existence.

Spare frames, obvs., silly - change after each ride and hope for the best.


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## SkipdiverJohn (7 Aug 2021)

The OP makes a valid point about the media all jumping on the "carbon is great" bandwagon. Properly made carbon can be great, but it can also be badly made crap with structural defects and horrendous dimensional tolerance problems
Cycling industry journalists and publications want freebie stuff to review and write anout to sell magazines/advertising space.
Individual journos want to get paid for reviewing this stuff.
There's an unwritten law at work here; if someone sends you something FOC to test out, then try not to slag it off. Maximise the plus points and downplay any shortcomings in the product. Give the industry donor at least a reasonable review no matter what. Then they will send you more stuff again in future.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (7 Aug 2021)

Carbon Fiber Care and Warnings...

http://www.rideyourbike.com/carbonfiber.shtml


"We are simply concerned about our customer's safety since carbon fiber has the potential to be a very dangerous product. We want you to be aware of this risk since the sales people that sold you the bike never mention this." ?


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## fair weather cyclist (7 Aug 2021)

So this conspiracy is organised by the carbon fibre lobby and covered up with the help of social media influencers. 

That's interesting.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (7 Aug 2021)

I agree it always helps when the masses get educated!


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## fair weather cyclist (7 Aug 2021)

Please tell us more!


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## Hacienda71 (7 Aug 2021)

Here are a few frame failures.


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## Bonefish Blues (7 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> Here are a few frame failures.
> View attachment 603112
> 
> 
> ...


I bet you've got carbon components on them, haven't you - like that spacer, which obviously caused a referred failure. Or did you chain them up next to a carbon bike once - that'll do it, too.


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## simongt (7 Aug 2021)

With all this about carbon fibre,  think I'll stick with my 29 year old Reynolds 531 Super Tourist framed Galaxy - !


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## vickster (7 Aug 2021)

simongt said:


> With all this about carbon fibre,  think I'll stick with my 29 year old Reynolds 531 Super Tourist framed Galaxy - !


Good luck winning an Olympic track medal on it in Paris in 2024


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## proletaratOne (8 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> I had that Giant TCR. Didn't break for me.
> 
> There's probably millions of CF frames out there. Putting up pictures of a few crashed bikes proves nothing.
> 
> You've still not explained the Big Carbon plot. What spares are they not providing and how are they gagging the press ? Throwing Emily Maitless the odd Pinarello ? Giving Jon Snow a Colnago ?


The carbon plot is real . Big carbon controls everything, the NSA, CIA, media, 
It’s real Illuminati shoot.

notice how some people’s carbon bike “explode”
Other can jump hills on carbon mountain bikes and ride the hell out of roadbikes

ever think those “accidents” are hits

the space shuttle that explodes was loaded with carbon fiber….. coincidence
Open your eyes and see how deep this rabbit hole goes


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## Bonefish Blues (8 Aug 2021)

Even God hates carbon fibre, sending mighty thunderbolts to smite anything made from it:


View: https://youtu.be/Aa3r-RjaODM


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## derrick (8 Aug 2021)

T4tomo said:


> Oh christ he's off on one again.. yes Anthony aerodynamics of the bikes itself is completely irrelevant to the overall aerodynamics of the rider and bike combined.


Not according to the lotus bike designer.


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## Bonefish Blues (8 Aug 2021)

derrick said:


> Not according to the lotus bike designer.


Well they would say that, wouldn't they? We now know better.


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## cougie uk (8 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Even God hates carbon fibre, sending mighty thunderbolts to smite anything made from it:
> 
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/Aa3r-RjaODM




The Shimano reel must be to blame...


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## Anthony.R.Brown (9 Aug 2021)

BUSTED CARBON
Photos of broken carbon fiber bicycle components.

http://www.bustedcarbon.com


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## winjim (9 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> BUSTED CARBON
> Photos of broken carbon fiber bicycle components.
> 
> http://www.bustedcarbon.com


Just glanced at the top few of those. Do you get many cars or vodka bottles at the velodrome? Personally I think modern carbon fibre bikes look awful, bur that's because I think they should remove the requirement for them to mimic metal tubesets, use the material to its full capabilities and let the designers go nuts with it, like some of those properly insane tri-bikes. It's five years old now but come on, this thing looks awesome.


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## Oldhippy (9 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon Fiber Care and Warnings...
> 
> http://www.rideyourbike.com/carbonfiber.shtml
> 
> ...


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## Bonefish Blues (9 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> Just glanced at the top few of those. Do you get many cars or vodka bottles at the velodrome? Personally I think modern carbon fibre bikes look awful, bur that's because I think they should remove the requirement for them to mimic metal tubesets, use the material to its full capabilities and let the designers go nuts with it, like some of those properly insane tri-bikes. It's five years old now but come on, this thing looks awesome like an e-bike.
> 
> View attachment 603306


Fixed that for you 😊


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## Hacienda71 (9 Aug 2021)

I remember my brother dragging his mangled Eddy Merckx back home in the 70's after totalling it. Total right off. You hit something hard and all materials will fail. To give some idea of strength though the below video shows just how strong carbon can be when compared to aluminium. I don't suppose they would use it to construct airliners if regular failures was an inherent fault. 

Carbon vs Aluminum Frames - Which is Stronger? - YouTube


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## winjim (9 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Fixed that for you 😊


That's because of the integrated storage compartments. It's practical, you don't need a saddlebag or anything.


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## Bonefish Blues (9 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> That's because of the integrated storage compartments. It's practical, you don't need a saddlebag or anything.


Ah, a touring bike eh? Versatile that there carbon.


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## matticus (9 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> <snip>
> 
> I don't suppose they would use it to construct airliners if regular failures was an inherent fault.


Because it IS an inherent fault, the airline people have very good QC. (It's all relative of course - steel frames/handlebars need some QC too.) As a result, I'm equally scared of getting on planes _whatever _they are made from!

Also worth noting the number of 50-60 year old metal planes still flying regularly.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (9 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> Just glanced at the top few of those. Do you get many cars or vodka bottles at the velodrome? Personally I think modern carbon fibre bikes look awful, bur that's because I think they should remove the requirement for them to mimic metal tubesets, use the material to its full capabilities and let the designers go nuts with it, like some of those properly insane tri-bikes. It's five years old now but come on, this thing looks awesome.
> 
> View attachment 603306




After 5.1 years the inevitable Carbon problem happened again!


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## cougie uk (9 Aug 2021)

Out of interest Anthony R - what bike (if any) do you ride ?


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## Anthony.R.Brown (9 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> Out of interest Anthony R - what bike (if any) do you ride ?



Well a better question for me would be what did I ride in the Past! ? because at the moment I am only training on a heavy Decathlon mountain bike,until I get confirmation if my Hour record attempt is on or not ? then I will switch to the appropriate bike,equipment & training needed,I still have six months to do it ?
In the 1980's onward when I was riding there was mainly only steel framed bikes & equipment available,and now that I can see the problems with Carbon,and the ridiculous price of equipment today,I am glad I was riding in the golden age of Steel! 
I had a few Holdsworth special training bikes with mudguards and cheap but good equipment,imported from Japan and I never had any of the components ever fail!,even after thousands of miles,One Holdsworth was Orange and the later one Silver,I also had over the years a Ruby red Condor for TT's,an Allen framed bike which I think was the first Aluminium bike in the UK,it was OK ? but I found it too soft to ride compared to Steel,I had some other bikes but I cannot remember the names ? I mainly had Rory O'Brien handmade frames & equipment because I worked in the shop in North street Romford essex,a Track bike for medium gear TT's and an all Gold special Rory TT bike,one other training bike I had was a Kenningston,if that's how it's spelt ? it was from another frame builder in Romford and maybe before Rory O'Brien ?


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## AndyRM (9 Aug 2021)

Because it's not like a steel bike has ever failed...


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## Anthony.R.Brown (9 Aug 2021)

AndyRM said:


> Because it's not like a steel bike has ever failed...



Yes there were some Steel bike failures but not many compared to today's Carbon bikes problems,I would say the main difference is if you bought the best Steel bikes,or should I say the most reliable like Rory O' Briens then I never heard of any failures ? there must of been some but I never heard it,now today even the very best Carbon bikes are failing ?

Below is a Rory O' Brien fast back frame similar to my best TT one,the differences with my one was that I never had chrome forks,but the Colour of mine was better it was at the time a special order Flamboyant Gold!  and I had an Aero dynamic plate welded to the bottom of the bottom bracket,plus it made that part of the frame stronger where it was needed! as I was using a 54 _Campagnolo chain_ ring at the time,plus all of my components were anodised Gold!


----------



## cougie uk (9 Aug 2021)

I'm pretty sure my custom 531 that's still in my garage cost a fair bit. 
The 653 Terry Dolan I bought aft r that with full Dura Ace was even more expensive. 

Then I had an 853 Graham Weigh. 

All lovely bikes but you get bored and move on. 

I bought a TCR frame and transferred all my kit and wheels onto the TCR and it was a revelation. Road buzz gone. A much better ride and lighter too. 

I flew with that abroad in a soft bag and raced all over Europe with it. No failures. They build them strong. 

You can't compare what an Olympian rides to us normal people. And there were 100s of CF bikes and what one failure ?

I've broken two alloy seatposts in my riding. Had my steel frame rust right through from the inside. Not one issue with Carbon fibre. 

You might as well post crashed F1 cars and tell us that our road cars are likely to lose a wheel. 

The 80s were not the golden age of steel. That would have been decades earlier. CF and alu were already out and making inroads. 

Enjoy your steel bikes but it's crazy to say that CF breaks all the time.


----------



## classic33 (9 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Yes there were some Steel bike failures but not many compared to today's Carbon bikes problems,I would say the main difference is if you bought the best Steel bikes,or should I say the most reliable like Rory O' Briens then I never heard of any failures ? there must of been some but I never heard it,now today even the very best Carbon bikes are failing ?
> 
> Below is a Rory O' Brien fast back frame similar to my best TT one,the differences with my one was that I never had chrome forks,but the Colour of mine was better it was at the time a special order Flamboyant Gold!  and I had an Aero dynamic plate welded to the bottom of the bottom bracket,plus it made that part of the frame stronger where it was needed! as I was using a 54 _Campagnolo chain_ ring at the time,*plus all of my components were anodised Gold!*
> 
> View attachment 603368


Gold chainrings would be on the soft side.


----------



## AndyRM (9 Aug 2021)

Flicked through that busted carbon site (which hasn't been updated in a decade) and after two pages the majority of failures seemed to be from crashes or driving into garage roofs. Anything made from any material has the potential to break, especially when it's put under stress. 

Although I suppose the issue with carbon is that it will dissolve if you go out in the rain, or melt if you leave your bike next to a radiator for even a minute...


----------



## Smokin Joe (9 Aug 2021)

I love carbon for the way it makes some people foam at the mouth.


----------



## classic33 (9 Aug 2021)

$500,000 for a bike.


----------



## Hacienda71 (9 Aug 2021)

The problem with CF seems to be anecdotal postings on this new interweb thingy. A mate of a mate of mine said his friends bike disintegrated when it rained. Never happened back in the days where everyone was on steel.


----------



## winjim (9 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> The problem with CF seems to be anecdotal postings on this new interweb thingy. A mate of a mate of mine said his friends bike disintegrated when it rained. Never happened back in the days where everyone was on steel.


Ferrous metals famously good in the wet of course.


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (10 Aug 2021)

After the Cycling know-all's get it wrong with the Carbon trend they also copy the riders position & bars from the past!


----------



## vickster (10 Aug 2021)

So what? If it works as an aero position on a track, why change it?


----------



## winjim (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> After the Cycling know-all's get it wrong with the Carbon trend they also copy the riders position & bars from the past!
> 
> View attachment 603486
> 
> ...


It's the same thing in reverse.


----------



## fair weather cyclist (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> View attachment 603487




Why is this photo the other way around?


----------



## cougie uk (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> After the Cycling know-all's get it wrong with the Carbon trend they also copy the riders position & bars from the past!
> 
> View attachment 603486
> 
> ...


Ooh this reminds me of that tandem sprint when the wheel destroyed itself. Dangerous things those spokes.


----------



## Moon bunny (10 Aug 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Why is this photo the other way around?


It’s an artistic convention, objects going from left to right are going with the sun, progressing, heading into the future... right to left, against the sun, regressing, looking back...


----------



## winjim (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> After the Cycling know-all's get it wrong with the Carbon trend they also copy the riders position & bars from the past!
> 
> View attachment 603486
> 
> ...


Interesting opinion on the Wikipedia page for that Schwinn.


----------



## classic33 (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> After the Cycling know-all's get it wrong with the Carbon trend they also copy the riders position & bars from the past!


And they copied earlier bikes.





Edited to correct "quoted" post and reply.


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## winjim (10 Aug 2021)

Now you're talking.


----------



## Hover Fly (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Well a better question for me would be what did I ride in the Past! ? because at the moment I am only training on a heavy Decathlon mountain bike,until I get confirmation if my Hour record attempt is on or not ? then I will switch to the appropriate bike,equipment & training needed,I still have six months to do it ?
> In the 1980's onward when I was riding there was mainly only steel framed bikes & equipment available,and now that I can see the problems with Carbon,and the ridiculous price of equipment today,I am glad I was riding in the golden age of Steel!
> I had a few Holdsworth special training bikes with mudguards and cheap but good equipment,imported from Japan and I never had any of the components ever fail!,even after thousands of miles,One Holdsworth was Orange and the later one Silver,I also had over the years a Ruby red Condor for TT's,an Allen framed bike which I think was the first Aluminium bike in the UK,it was OK ? but I found it too soft to ride compared to Steel,I had some other bikes but I cannot remember the names ? I mainly had Rory O'Brien handmade frames & equipment because I worked in the shop in North street Romford essex,a Track bike for medium gear TT's and an all Gold special Rory TT bike,one other training bike I had was a Kenningston,if that's how it's spelt ? it was from another frame builder in Romford and maybe before Rory O'Brien ?


Back in about 1987 I was stood on a bridge up in the lakes with a Harry Hall 531 butted, Campagnolo bits, when a hiker came up,
”...how much did that bike cost...”
”About 300£”
”Bludy hell they must have seen you coming... I wouldn’t pay that for a bike...”
It was ever thus, some people think some things are worth paying for, others would begrudge paying scrap price.
If I was still doing the miles I was in the 80s I wouldn’t be fiddling around with old steelies, in fact there is one cf bike I am thinking of buying, but it’s largely a matter of sticking to what you know and trust. Simple fact is, a CF bike can be made lighter, and that counts for a lot. Perhaps the extra strength could be put to making more durable bikes for the non racing, but figures sell, whether it’s a few mph on strava, or seconds on a local time trial, people will pay to massage their egos.


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (10 Aug 2021)

People think the Banned Supertuck position is a new idea ? they did of course do such things in the past! photo next below 

The UCI Is Risking a Major PR Debacle With Strict Supertuck Punishments
RICHARD CARAPAZ IS THE HIGHEST-PROFILE CYCLIST TO BE DQ’ED FOR A SUPERTUCK. WHAT IF HE HAD WON THE RACE?

https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a36265657/uci-supertuck-ban-strict-punishments/


----------



## fossyant (10 Aug 2021)

winjim said:


> Now you're talking.
> 
> View attachment 603524



An OTB special that. That's a super mullet ! 

(Google mullet if you don't know what that is in MTB talk - they should be banned).


----------



## fossyant (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> People think the Banned Supertuck position is a new idea ? they did of course do such things in the past! photo next below
> 
> The UCI Is Risking a Major PR Debacle With Strict Supertuck Punishments
> RICHARD CARAPAZ IS THE HIGHEST-PROFILE CYCLIST TO BE DQ’ED FOR A SUPERTUCK. WHAT IF HE HAD WON THE RACE?
> ...



He's wearing the new Oakleys !


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (10 Aug 2021)

THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF YOUR CARBON FIBER BIKE

https://www.martinmontilino.com/the-hidden-dangers-of-your-carbon-fiber-bike/


----------



## Ming the Merciless (10 Aug 2021)

THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF A STICKY CAPS LOCK KEY


----------



## classic33 (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> People think the Banned Supertuck position is a new idea ? they did of course do such things in the past! photo next below
> 
> The UCI Is Risking a Major PR Debacle With Strict Supertuck Punishments
> RICHARD CARAPAZ IS THE HIGHEST-PROFILE CYCLIST TO BE DQ’ED FOR A SUPERTUCK. WHAT IF HE HAD WON THE RACE?
> ...


He'd have been banned for using something that was illegal.


----------



## classic33 (10 Aug 2021)

@Anthony.R.Brown, with regards your "hour attempt"
Elsewhere, you gave your age as 61, birthday in September. Here you're 60. Next month you'd be 62, or 61.
The person who you have said on here who you have to beat, set the record in the 55 - 59 age group. The person in your age group, 60 - 64, went further in the hour. 
Doesn't this mean you're chasing the wrong record, regardless of whether you're 60, 61 or 62 next month.

Will you be attempting it on a carbon bike, just as the person who you have to beat did when he set the record.

Corrected the age in edit.


----------



## AndyRM (10 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF YOUR CARBON FIBER BIKE
> 
> https://www.martinmontilino.com/the-hidden-dangers-of-your-carbon-fiber-bike/



Yeah, that's a legit source. Ambulance chasing nonsense.


----------



## winjim (10 Aug 2021)

AndyRM said:


> Yeah, that's a legit source. Ambulance chasing nonsense.


Also...


----------



## cougie uk (10 Aug 2021)

'pretty much' is doing a lot of heavy lifting there...


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

Carbon fork failures probably the worst breakage you can have because of the sudden impact when hitting the floor! ?


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon fork failures probably the worst breakage you can have because of the sudden impact when hitting the floor! ?


Edited, because it matters not a jot the material, a fork breakage is always likely to hurt.


----------



## Hacienda71 (11 Aug 2021)

@Anthony.R.Brown Please stop posting misinformation. In what context did those forks break? I can guarantee the vast majority of the pictures in this thread where carbon has failed are from severe impact damage. The injuries any rider has suffered would be the same whatever the frame material. 
If you want to post about the dangers of carbon please show us some scientific data not anecdotal rubbish that supports your false narrative.


----------



## nickyboy (11 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> @Anthony.R.Brown Please stop posting misinformation. In what context did those forks break? I can guarantee the vast majority of the pictures in this thread where carbon has failed are from severe impact damage. The injuries any rider has suffered would be the same whatever the frame material.
> If you want to post about the dangers of carbon please show us some scientific data not anecdotal rubbish that supports your false narrative.


Frankly, if you're hit by something or hit something hard enough to break the forks like that, the fact your bike is broken isn't going to be the reason for your injuries


----------



## fair weather cyclist (11 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> If you want to post about the dangers of carbon please show us some scientific data not anecdotal rubbish.



Easier said than done. We've all learned in this thread that there's a lot of scientific data that the carbon fibre frame lobby doesn't want you to see.


----------



## T4tomo (11 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> @Anthony.R.Brown, with regards your "hour attempt"
> Elsewhere, you gave your age as 61, birthday in September. Here you're 60. Next month you'd be 62, or 61.
> The person who you have said on here who you have to beat, set the record in the 55 - 59 age group. *The person in your age group, 60 - 64, went further in the hour.*
> Doesn't this mean you're chasing the wrong record, regardless of whether you're 60, 61 or 62 next month.
> ...







Easier to wait if he's about to break 60. Although, as you say conflicting info has been posted. i think he said he's broken the 60-64 record on the road on his mam's butchers bike, so it wouldn't be a challenge


----------



## cougie uk (11 Aug 2021)

Ooh that 96-99 record looks soft. 

I'll go for that in 43 years time.


----------



## classic33 (11 Aug 2021)

T4tomo said:


> View attachment 603640
> 
> Easier to wait if he's about to break 60. Although, as you say conflicting info has been posted. i think he said he's broken the 60-64 record on the road on his mam's butchers bike, so it wouldn't be a challenge


And if he breaks the record of Kevin Metcalfe, set at altitude, it won't count. Wrong age group.


----------



## HLaB (11 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> The problem with CF seems to be anecdotal postings on this new interweb thingy. A mate of a mate of mine said his friends bike disintegrated when it rained. Never happened back in the days where everyone was on steel.


They rusted


----------



## HLaB (11 Aug 2021)

View: https://youtu.be/vcOKfTnRIII


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> @Anthony.R.Brown Please stop posting misinformation. In what context did those forks break? I can guarantee the vast majority of the pictures in this thread where carbon has failed are from severe impact damage. The injuries any rider has suffered would be the same whatever the frame material.
> If you want to post about the dangers of carbon please show us some scientific data not anecdotal rubbish that supports your false narrative.



A Stochastic Model Based on Fiber Breakage and Matrix Creep for the Stress-Rupture Failure of Unidirectional Continuous Fiber Composites 2. Non-linear Matrix Creep Effects...Such composites, often consisting of carbon fibers in an epoxy matrix, 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2021.644815/full


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

cougie uk said:


> What vital carbon spares ?
> 
> Silencing the truth ?
> 
> Are you feeling ok ?



Just as I said there is more than a conspiracy regarding hiding the facts about Carbon failures within the Cycling industries,they want Carbon to replace everything! ? 

Aluminum Road Bikes with Mechanical Shifting and Rim Brakes Are Officially Dead...

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html


----------



## classic33 (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Just as I said there is more than a conspiracy regarding hiding the facts about Carbon failures within the Cycling industries,they want Carbon to replace everything! ?
> 
> Aluminum Road Bikes with Mechanical Shifting and Rim Brakes Are Officially Dead...
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dead-aluminum-road-bikes-mechanical-164600012.html


And you've claimed that you were ahead of the rest when you made a frame out of fibreglass. This despite it already having been done.

Did your fibreglass frame last, or does it explain why you don't like carbon fibre frames?


----------



## Hacienda71 (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> A Stochastic Model Based on Fiber Breakage and Matrix Creep for the Stress-Rupture Failure of Unidirectional Continuous Fiber Composites 2. Non-linear Matrix Creep Effects...Such composites, often consisting of carbon fibers in an epoxy matrix,
> 
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2021.644815/full


Have you actually read this? Having skim read it, it is simply a paper showing stress tests of ud composites in certain uses. Not cycling frames. It specifically refers to high pressure uses and high long-term stress uses in construction. It certainly doesn't condemn CF as a material. It seems to be more interested in creep failures over an extended period, not sudden catastrophic failures of bicycle frames that you insist is a problem. There are plenty of similar papers on materials used commercially. If you want I can show you papers showing stress failures in steel, aluminium and titanium. However that would not suit the narrative would it......


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

JRA Failures - Why Does a Carbon Bike Fail JUST RIDING ALONG?


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-SFAB_zK-I


----------



## classic33 (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> JRA Failures - Why Does a Carbon Bike Fail JUST RIDING ALONG?
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-SFAB_zK-I



Stop shouting!

Why have we moved onto earthquakes now?
_"Structural failure of piles passing through liquefiable soils has been observed in many of the recent strong earthquakes."_
http://www.civ.eng.cam.ac.uk/geotec...UQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Cup0XNCfjk6LWDORw3FH-


----------



## Hacienda71 (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> JRA Failures - Why Does a Carbon Bike Fail JUST RIDING ALONG?
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-SFAB_zK-I



Suggest you take note of what he says from 4:30 onwards.


----------



## Smokin Joe (11 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> Suggest you take note of what he says from 4:30 onwards.


Conspiracy theorists simply ignore anything that gets in the way of their claims.


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

Study explains strength gap between graphene, carbon fiber

Carbon fiber, a pillar of strength in materials manufacturing for decades, isn't as good as it could be ? 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161019160117.htm


----------



## Hacienda71 (11 Aug 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> Conspiracy theorists simply ignore anything that gets in the way of their claims.


Not sure they read what they post either. 🤣


----------



## FishFright (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Study explains strength gap between graphene, carbon fiber
> 
> Carbon fiber, a pillar of strength in materials manufacturing for decades, isn't as good as it could be ?
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161019160117.htm



Steel is better now than it was due to research , don't you think other materials should get the same consideration?


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

FishFright said:


> Steel is better now than it was due to research , don't you think other materials should get the same consideration?



For sure!  the problem is while the bike manufacturers can still sell and increase their sales,then they will keep selling to the public regardless!


----------



## Hacienda71 (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> For sure!  the problem is while the bike manufacturers can still sell and increase their sales,then they will keep selling to the public regardless!


That would be because it is stronger, lighter, cheaper, easier to form than the alternatives. Improving on something that is already superior is a win win. 
Don't get me wrong we all like a classic steel frame, but overall it is inferior. It is called progress. It is why the human race has moved on from flint knives.


----------



## vickster (11 Aug 2021)

Did your wife leave you for a carbon bike, hence your ire?


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (11 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> That would be because it is stronger, lighter, cheaper, easier to form than the alternatives. Improving on something that is already superior is a win win.
> Don't get me wrong we all like a classic steel frame, but overall it is inferior. It is called progress. It is why the human race has moved on from flint knives.



It's always funny when the Carbon Sales people login  No! progress has been made with Carbon! it is a reverse in something that was sound! some Cyclists have had Steel bikes & components for 50+ years without a failure,show me one Carbon Cyclist with the same reliability ?


----------



## classic33 (11 Aug 2021)

What about a carbon fibre chess set!
https://www.compositestoday.com/2014/08/ferrari-carbon-fibre-chess-set/


----------



## FishFright (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> For sure!  the problem is while the bike manufacturers can still sell and increase their sales,then they will keep selling to the public regardless!



CF is not new , weird or or scary . Aeroplanes , cars, motorbikes , fishing tackle, yachts et al have been built successfully and safely using CF for decades . So please tell me why a bike frame is considerably more complex than all the above and so cannot be built safely ?

If you'd like to use Google Scholar , which only returns peer reviewed papers, to source your supporting evidence then I will have full confidence in your own findings and will change my purchasing decisions.


----------



## cougie uk (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> It's always funny when the Carbon Sales people login  No! progress has been made with Carbon! it is a reverse in something that was sound! some Cyclists have had Steel bikes & components for 50+ years without a failure,show me one Carbon Cyclist with the same reliability ?



Jesus. I've told you. My lovely chromed steel bike corroded through from the inside. And it was my summer bike. 

I've since had three CF bikes with no issues. 

I'm sure you don't even believe what you're saying - you're clearly just trolling.


----------



## Jenkins (11 Aug 2021)

But just how fast could A.R Engers have gone *IF* he was on a carbon fibre bike

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/just-how-fast-could-a-r-engers-have-gone-using-mtaf.272855/


----------



## classic33 (11 Aug 2021)

Jenkins said:


> But just how fast could A.R Engers have gone *IF* he was on a carbon fibre bike
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/just-how-fast-could-a-r-engers-have-gone-using-mtaf.272855/


Carbon fibre is good enough for Eddy Merckx, and to put his name to frames built from/using it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> Carbon fibre is good enough for Eddy Merckx, and to put his name to frames built from/using it.


Under the control of Big Carbon, clearly


----------



## Hacienda71 (11 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> It's always funny when the Carbon Sales people login  No! progress has been made with Carbon! it is a reverse in something that was sound! some Cyclists have had Steel bikes & components for 50+ years without a failure,show me one Carbon Cyclist with the same reliability ?


Whilst we can't show what you are asking as carbon frames weren't used in the 60/70's here is some anecdotal bollox.
I have a 1980's steel framed Carlton Super Course lightweight groupset, Campag hubs and Mavic rims, lovely pearlesent white. It rides well really smooth and compliant, it is reasonably quick. I am a bit worried at it's age the forks may be internally corroded and could snap if I hit a pothole, unfortunately the aluminium quill stem has seized in the fork tube (common problem with steel framed bikes due to metal corrosion) so I can't check. I did have a Ribble aluminium framed road bike but the weld around the BB failed under load, so I had to bin it. My carbon aero framed bike with SRAM groupset and a choice of either 50mm carbon wheels for the flat or shallow rims for the hills is faster and 2.5 kg lighter. Not a little faster, a lot faster than my Carlton ( I have run them both repeatedly over the same stretch of road). I have raced it, tt'd it, hill climbed on it. At the moment it has clocked up 50,000 km My previous carbon frame did 10's of thousands of km as well. It never failed I just fancied a change. I don't sell carbon frames, I have no connection to the cycle industry. I did once sell a shop to a guy who cycled. Not sure if that is a conflict of interest. You can make up your own mind on that. As a chartered surveyor I do sell shops sometimes though.
Have you noticed on a cycle forum with literally thousands of members and millions of posts though that there aren't loads of threads about how my carbon bike exploded? Surely a public forum would be inundated with people calling out the industry? Have you ever owned a carbon bike or even ridden one? Or are you simply trolling.....


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

The failure mechanism of carbon fiber-reinforced composites under longitudinal compression considering the interface

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/secm-2015-0057/html


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

FishFright said:


> CF is not new , weird or or scary . Aeroplanes , cars, motorbikes , fishing tackle, yachts et al have been built successfully and safely using CF for decades . So please tell me why a bike frame is considerably more complex than all the above and so cannot be built safely ?
> 
> If you'd like to use Google Scholar , which only returns peer reviewed papers, to source your supporting evidence then I will have full confidence in your own findings and will change my purchasing decisions.



Planes
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12951-composite-aircraft-may-hide-dangerous-flaws/

Cars
https://carbonfibermonocoque.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/crash-safety-of-lightweight-cars/


Fishing tackle
http://www.easycomposites.cn/downloads/TDS/EC-TDS-Fishing-Pole-Repair-Kit.pdf


Yachts 
https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...lhan/14c01263dab72b5015c2da2fc8cb74104f1c1f3c


----------



## Bonefish Blues (12 Aug 2021)

AB, you're starting to sound rather silly now 😊


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> AB, you're starting to sound rather silly now 😊



Maybe to the uninitiated


----------



## Hacienda71 (12 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> AB, you're starting to sound rather silly now 😊


I quite like the fact he keeps posting links showing how strong carbon fibre is compared to other materials and the massive strain required for it to fail. It is almost as if he is struggling to find links to justify his argument, or hasn't read what he is posting or simply doesn't understand it. Tinfoil hat brigade.


----------



## GuyBoden (12 Aug 2021)

Forget carbon and steel, I'm saving for this 24K gold bike at the inexpensive price of £208,333.33

Gold with diamonds, but you have to provide your own pedals.







View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOTrfMf6GTA


----------



## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Planes
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12951-composite-aircraft-may-hide-dangerous-flaws/
> 
> Cars
> ...


Planes
Composite material, not just carbon fibre.


Lightweight Cars(single seater F1)
https://www.wired.com/2014/07/formula-one-car-safety-comfort/
And things have improved since that was written.

Boats, MV ULYSSES RoRo car ferry




You'll note that the steel trailer is damaged.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Maybe to the uninitiated


We are the uninitiated - almost to a man/woman, I fear


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

Carbon fiber is NOT stronger than aluminium and steel

https://www.largescaleforums.com/th...-not-stronger-than-aluminium-and-steel.23881/


----------



## CanucksTraveller (12 Aug 2021)

It is though.


----------



## cougie uk (12 Aug 2021)

This is a fun watch. 


View: https://youtu.be/QYqOMjoz_i8


----------



## fair weather cyclist (12 Aug 2021)

Now I want a bike made with buffalo horn


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

Carbon bicycle fail compilation #1


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn29u7GoqPk


----------



## cougie uk (12 Aug 2021)

fair weather cyclist said:


> Now I want a bike made with buffalo horn


I bet someone's tried it...


----------



## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> Forget carbon and steel, I'm saving for this 24K gold bike at the inexpensive price of £208,333.33
> 
> Gold with diamonds, but you have to provide your own pedals.
> 
> ...




The really Crazy thing about that piece of junk! is that the Seat and Handlebar angles are wrong! ?


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon fiber is NOT stronger than aluminium and steel
> 
> https://www.largescaleforums.com/th...-not-stronger-than-aluminium-and-steel.23881/


From that link
_"Stronger than steel is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to carbon fiber. At the same density, carbon fiber is a lot stronger than steel, but that's not reality. Carbon fiber is 1/5th the density of steel. So what you're looking at is strength to weight ratio. If you have a sheet of steel that weighs 10Kg and a sheet of carbon fiber of the same weight, the carbon fiber would definitely be stronger, but it would also be 5x thicker than the steel sheet.

CF has a ton of uses where a light, strong, rigid part is needed, but I'm never been a fan of most of the CF parts on big, heavy RC cars, especially in parts of the frame where it is subject to forces from multiple different directions. But hey, folks can get whatever they want with their money! :ROFLMAO: "_


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## nickyboy (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon bicycle fail compilation #1
> 
> 
> View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn29u7GoqPk



As the narrator says, if you have a serious crash you need to check your carbon bike for failures. The bikes aren't just failing (as you seem to suggest), they are failing following a serious impact. It is true to say that carbon frames will not deform in the way, say, a steel one will do upon impact, the Young's Modulus of carbon is totally different from steel. 

But avoid crashing your carbon bike and it isn't going to fail from under you


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

nickyboy said:


> As the narrator says, if you have a serious crash you need to check your carbon bike for failures. The bikes aren't just failing (as you seem to suggest), they are failing following a serious impact. It is true to say that carbon frames will not deform in the way, say, a steel one will do upon impact, the Young's Modulus of carbon is totally different from steel.
> 
> But avoid crashing your carbon bike and it isn't going to fail from under you



Well considering Pro Cyclists are Crashing now more than ever then that advice won't do for them!

Why Are There So Many Crashes Now! In Road Racing ?

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-are-there-so-many-crashes-now-in-road-racing.274182/


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> The really Crazy thing about that piece of junk! is that the Seat and Handlebar angles are wrong! ?


Who for?


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Well considering Pro Cyclists are Crashing now more than ever then that advice won't do for them!
> 
> Why Are There So Many Crashes Now! In Road Racing ?
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-are-there-so-many-crashes-now-in-road-racing.274182/


Proof, in the form of figures of crashes over the years please.
To back that claim up.


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## nickyboy (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Well considering Pro Cyclists are Crashing now more than ever then that advice won't do for them!
> 
> Why Are There So Many Crashes Now! In Road Racing ?
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-are-there-so-many-crashes-now-in-road-racing.274182/


Is the premise of your argument that carbon bikes fail more than non-carbon per se, or that they fail more than non-carbon in the event of an impact?


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

nickyboy said:


> Is the premise of your argument that carbon bikes fail more than non-carbon per se, or that they fail more than non-carbon in the event of an impact?



Both! 

Carbon is an inferior product compared to Steel and Aluminium in many ways! 
Example just try getting a good fixing with something simple like the screws that hold mudguards to a bike on those types of bikes,and you will find that even the slightest bit of extra pressure applied when tightening the screw will result in the screw stripping the thread! ?


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Both!
> 
> Carbon is an inferior product compared to Steel and Aluminium in many ways!
> Example just try getting a good fixing with something simple like the screws that hold mudguards to a bike on those types of bikes,and you will find that even the slightest bit of extra pressure applied when tightening the screw will result in the screw stripping the thread! ?


You just have to be mindful of the materials in use. 
I've stripped threads on a tractor wheel before today.


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## Milkfloat (12 Aug 2021)

Let's get this thread back on topic - we don't need 10 pages of google search results cluttering it up.



Anthony.R.Brown said:


> https://www.wx-r.com
> 
> So if you are one of those riders with more Cash than Brains ? then go get yourself a Worx WX-R Vorteq for $39,000 ?
> I Guarantee a good rider would go just as fast using a Steel framed track bike with good components they don't have to be the best,position is about the most important thing the rest is Marketing garbage!



This statement is clearly false - science dictates that, but also look at the real world - successful teams spend about £2M per Olympic medal, everything is analysed and considered to the nth degree, the riders even have heated trousers after their warm up. Since carbon fibre has become widely available, steel has not had a look in and won any medals. Look at your own hour records - all on carbon fibre. Position is vital, but it is not everthing.


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## Milkfloat (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Yes! they wasted 25+ years for nothing! Eddy Merckx hour record using a Steel Track bike has stood the test of time! the main reason they go so much further is because of what I said above "Position is everything" and the Banned Tri bar position is not allowed if a person wants to try and break Eddy Merckx hour record using a Steel Track bike etc.



His record lasted for a long time because nobody cared about it, it was out of fashion. Moser's attempt reinvigorated interest under different rules Merckx record was ignored.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> His record lasted for a long time because nobody cared about it, it was out of fashion. Moser's attempt reinvigorated interest under different rules Merckx record was ignored.
> 
> View attachment 603793



What a disgrace you are to this forum to say no one cared about the Greatest Hour Cycling record of Merckx's ? 

The fact is everyone knew how difficult it would be to even try and beat Merckx's record under the same conditions!
The proof of that is Chris Boardman only managed to beat Merckx's record by 10 meters,and that was with a bike with better tire rolling resistance,a smoother Track,and better knowledge of blood condition related to diet etc. needed to beat such a record! gained in the 28 year gap since Merckx's rode.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWdwSOX6BoA

Below is the Genius at work!...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqjEvDlFqdM


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## Hacienda71 (12 Aug 2021)

Merckx was caught doping three times in his career when testing was fairly rudimentary. Chris Boardman never tested positive for peds despite a more stringent testing regime. Just saying like.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> Merckx was caught doping three times in his career when testing was fairly rudimentary. Chris Boardman never tested positive for peds despite a more stringent testing regime. Just saying like.



Merckx was never charged with doping for his Hour record!!!


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Merckx was never charged with doping for his Hour record!!!


Doesn't alter the fact he was caught cheating.


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## Hacienda71 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Merckx was never charged with doping for his Hour record!!!


Was he tested?


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## Milkfloat (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> What a disgrace you are to this forum to say no one cared about the Greatest Hour Cycling record of Merckx's ?
> 
> The fact is everyone knew how difficult it would be to even try and beat Merckx's record under the same conditions!
> The proof of that is Chris Boardman only managed to beat Merckx's record by 10 meters,and that was with a bike with better tire rolling resistance,a smoother Track,and better knowledge of blood condition related to diet etc. needed to beat such a record! gained in the 28 year gap since Merckx's rode.
> ...



Boardman was not a particularly world class rider himself, he was a very good cyclist with a passion for innovation, look at who beat Boardman after, a cycling nobody. Eddy’s record stood for just 12 years during a lull for the track before the record split into a non-UCI record. People were more interested in the faster times and did not care about the UCI, in addition Saint Eddy himself would have put his hand up and said he was better on the road than the track.


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## GuyBoden (12 Aug 2021)

We've not even mentioned Graeme Obree's World Hour Record, riding 51.596km on Old Faithful in 1993.






Doesn't Chris Boardman still hold one of the hour records for the UCI best human effort (1986–2014).


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

GuyBoden said:


> We've not even mentioned Graeme Obree's World Hour Record, riding 51.596km on Old Faithful in 1993.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am fully aware of Graeme's Amazing rides especially because he was a 100% amateur rider,and was even unemployed!
Luckily for Graeme he never used Carbon Bars & long stem etc. otherwise we may not even be talking about him!


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## FishFright (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Planes
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12951-composite-aircraft-may-hide-dangerous-flaws/
> 
> Cars
> ...



New Scientist - The article talks about a fault in testing and not a failure of the material
Car - talks about the relative safety lightweight vs standard cars
Fishing tackle - Seriously???
Yachts - Interesting but 2003 which is a long time in material science but it in no way supports your argument.

You really should read the articles before posting links.


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## Milkfloat (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Luckily for Graeme he never used Carbon Bars & long stem etc. otherwise we may not even be talking about him!


I an sure you are aware that all materials fail, especially if they are under engineered. The big stem failure at the Olympics which was initially blamed on carbon was in fact a titanium part


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## Hacienda71 (12 Aug 2021)

Hate to point this out, but Graeme Obree used carbon composite Specialized tri spoke wheels on his bike to claim the hour record. Luckily they didn't explode.....


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## Bonefish Blues (12 Aug 2021)

Milkfloat said:


> I an sure you are aware that all materials fail, especially if they are under engineered. The big stem failure at the Olympics which was initially blamed on carbon was in fact a titanium part


Ah but it was so embarrassed at being adjacent to a carbon part it did the honourable thing.


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## Bonefish Blues (12 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> Hate to point this out, but Graeme Obree used carbon composite Specialized tri spoke wheels on his bike to claim the hour record. Luckily they didn't explode.....


We're on first name terms on this thread. Aren't we Ant?


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Yes! they wasted 25+ years for nothing! Eddy Merckx hour record using a Steel Track bike has stood the test of time! the main reason they go so much further is because of what I said above "Position is everything" and the Banned Tri bar position is not allowed if a person wants to try and break Eddy Merckx hour record using a Steel Track bike etc.


Are you factoring in the altitude difference. Mexico City being over 7,000 feet.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (12 Aug 2021)

Bicycle Frame & Component Failures – Expert Article

https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/bicycle-frame-component-failures-expert-article

" While metal frames often give warning before a failure in the form of cracks, bends and bulges, carbon fiber failures are much more difficult for the average rider to identify before a catastrophic event.

Head tube failure can be very serious
Bottom bracket area can creak before failure
Cracks sometimes form in areas hidden behind other components "


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## classic33 (12 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Bicycle Frame & Component Failures – Expert Article
> 
> https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/bicycle-frame-component-failures-expert-article
> 
> ...



*Bicycle Frame & Component Failures – Expert Article*
In this article, the bicycle experts discuss bicycle frame and component failures, with an emphasis on the failures that are most commonly associated with a *loss of control or crash.*

Edited to ask of the OP, 
Why do you keep on deleting posts?


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## Anthony.R.Brown (13 Aug 2021)

Second to the Carbon forks breaking as being the most serious breakage,the Bars,Stems,Brake lever,failures have to come next,because of the sudden loss of control.


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## classic33 (13 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Second to the Carbon forks breaking as being the most serious breakage,the Bars,Stems,Brake lever,failures have to come next, *because of the sudden loss of control.*
> 
> View attachment 603904
> 
> ...


By "Sudden loss of control", you mean crash.


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## Hacienda71 (13 Aug 2021)

Oh great more out of context pictures.


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## Hacienda71 (13 Aug 2021)

I know I shouldn't but, my turn


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## classic33 (13 Aug 2021)

Hacienda71 said:


> I know I shouldn't but, my turn
> View attachment 603920
> 
> 
> ...


Been unlucky with your choice of handlebars


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## Smokin Joe (13 Aug 2021)

classic33 said:


> Edited to ask of the OP,
> Why do you keep on deleting posts?



Because he realises how stupid they were.


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## classic33 (13 Aug 2021)

Smokin Joe said:


> Because he realises how stupid they were.


Those he tends to leave.


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## Hover Fly (13 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Second to the Carbon forks breaking as being the most serious breakage,the Bars,Stems,Brake lever,failures have to come next,because of the sudden loss of control.
> 
> View attachment 603904
> 
> ...


The Mad Sledge Hammer Bike Murderer strikes again.
That last photo, I know continental makers used to put a hardwood plug up the steerer tubes, didn’t know they did it to handlebars.


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## SkipdiverJohn (13 Aug 2021)

Hover Fly said:


> That last photo, I know continental makers used to put a hardwood plug up the steerer tubes, didn’t know they did it to handlebars.



Some villager living on the route of famous cycling events is wondering where the hell their yard broom went. They're sure they put it away in it's normal place last time...


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## C R (13 Aug 2021)

Hover Fly said:


> The Mad Sledge Hammer Bike Murderer strikes again.
> That last photo, I know continental makers used to put a hardwood plug up the steerer tubes, didn’t know they did it to handlebars.


Well, wood _is_ fibrous and mostly made of carbon, so it fits the theme of the thread, I suppose.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (13 Aug 2021)

C R said:


> Well, wood _is_ fibrous and mostly made of carbon, so it fits the theme of the thread, I suppose.



Exactly! When a person knows something might break best to have it all happen at the same time!  the last thing you want is some kind of Metal spoiling the sudden impact!


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## C R (13 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Exactly! When a person knows something might break best to have it all happen at the same time!  the last thing you want is some kind of Metal spoiling the sudden impact!


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## GuyBoden (14 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> I am fully aware of Graeme's Amazing rides especially because he was a 100% amateur rider,and was even unemployed!
> Luckily for Graeme he never used Carbon Bars & long stem etc. otherwise we may not even be talking about him!


I've always wondered if Graeme Obree's original crouch position was effective, compared to other positions.
Here are some tests:
https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/4413/watch-was-graeme-obree-an-aerodynamic-genius-or-supreme-athlete


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9H0INZ2_s

Spoiler alert: According to the results, the w position is potentially a faster position than the standard and Superman positions.

Edit: Obree beating Boardman in the 1993 track cycling world championships - men's individual pursuit.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7GTNdo2BjQ

It's unbelieable what Obree achieved with very little help, well worth looking back again at his inspiring individual achievements.


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## Anthony.R.Brown (17 Aug 2021)

Carbon wheel failures are a serious breakages in any ones book,especially the front! ?


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## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon wheel failures are a serious breakages in any ones book,especially the front! ?
> View attachment 604695
> 
> View attachment 604696
> ...


Hit something hard enough and you'll break it.


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## vickster (17 Aug 2021)

I somehow cracked an aluminium rim too last year (it had done many thousands of miles to be fair) and broke a metal spoke on an alu rim in June too (<1000 miles)...do I get a prize?


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## C R (17 Aug 2021)

vickster said:


> I somehow cracked an aluminium rim too last year (it had done many thousands of miles to be fair) and broke a metal spoke on an alu rim in June too (<1000 miles)...do I get a prize?


That's unpossible, everyone knows metal is ductile, so it bends, but doesn't crack or break, .


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## FishFright (17 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon wheel failures are a serious breakages in any ones book,especially the front! ?
> 
> View attachment 604695
> 
> ...



Now do that again with context and appropriate links to each incident


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## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon wheel failures are a serious breakages in any ones book,especially the front! ?
> View attachment 604700


Tested to destruction, ie on purpose.


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## AndyRM (17 Aug 2021)

FishFright said:


> Now do that again with context and appropriate links to each incident



Good luck. Anthony talks baws,


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## classic33 (17 Aug 2021)

Anthony.R.Brown said:


> Carbon wheel failures are a serious breakages in any ones book,especially the front! ?
> 
> View attachment 604695
> 
> ...


Number Eight.
Destruction tested, to check heat build up effects.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZvFPdLulI


httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZvFPdLulI&feature=youtu.be


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## winjim (17 Aug 2021)

C R said:


> That's unpossible, everyone knows metal is ductile, so it bends, but doesn't crack or break, .


Carbon fibre must be pretty ductile, the way the OP's managed to draw it out.


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