# Question for Clubs



## galgoman (23 May 2018)

Back in the mid 70's I was lucky to belong to a very active and inclusive club. It was split between pedestrian, touring and racing interests.

What I see as a major threat to all three interests is cost and opportunity. To race or even tour these days seriously you need to be from a family of heart surgeons or hedge fund managers to be able to afford riding a bike that is crafted for your interest. Back in the day, we used to have a Century ride every Sunday, a time trial every wednesday and group peleton rides several evenings a week, open and encouraged to everyone to participate and especially new riders to the sport to learn how to ride in a group. I would really like to know if clubs are more elitist these days or inclusive in getting as many people involved in cycling either competitively or touring? The clubs I see riding in my area these days all look like their bike cost as much as their car and most importantly missing is a diversity of riders who are the future of the sport.


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## DCLane (23 May 2018)

Mine's got the whole lot; elitist through to those just starting out. I'm on the beginner's ride tomorrow night and we'll see all sorts of bikes, possibly with me on a 1990's Raleigh Pioneer.

Racing's got more expensive but there'll be starter bikes there as well.


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## Racing roadkill (24 May 2018)

I’ve encountered several clubs that like to pretend they’re ‘all inclusive’ and ‘welcoming’ but that’s usually an ‘easily removed veneer’ and they’ve turned out to be as tw@y as every other club, in reality. Any activity that involves ‘clubiness’ is going to attract a certain amount of tree house politics playing muppets. ‘Cycling’ is a broad church, you need to look beyond the narrow band of cliquey clubbies, and you’ll see that it’s actually still very accessible, and pretty inclusive. It’s all about perspective.


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## mjr (29 May 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> I used to ride with a club until a couple of years ago. It cost the princely sum of about £10 per year. [...] So good clubs do exist. Have a look around on the web for a club near you and turn up. See what it's like.


Just to +1 much of what @Dogtrousers wrote, plus to add that some don't charge a membership fee (some get their costs covered otherwise, including sponsorship, while others do a donation drive when needed) and many now call themselves "group", "wheelers", "BUG" or various other things rather than "club" - possibly partly because of the connotations of "club". Many clubs are fine and wonderful things, but some aren't and I'm sure that the OP didn't develop the negative impression out of nothing.


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## Dave Davenport (29 May 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> I’ve encountered several clubs that like to pretend they’re ‘all inclusive’ and ‘welcoming’ but that’s usually an ‘easily removed veneer’ and they’ve turned out to be as tw@y as every other club, in reality. Any activity that involves ‘clubiness’ is going to attract a certain amount of tree house politics playing muppets. ‘Cycling’ is a broad church, you need to look beyond the narrow band of cliquey clubbies, and you’ll see that it’s actually still very accessible, and pretty inclusive. It’s all about perspective.


I've known a few people to move to my club after 'not getting on' at another club, only to not 'get on' at mine and move on again and then I hear they've quit that one too (a couple have come back for a bit before disappearing). Makes you wonder who's got the problem.


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## ColinJ (29 May 2018)

I was coming down the long Cragg Vale descent with a non-cyclist** friend yesterday evening when she got a puncture. She didn't know how to fix it so I was doing it for her and explaining what I was doing as I went along. Over the next few minutes a club ride went past us up the hill. I have been overtaken on that climb numerous times by serious racing club riders (e.g. Manchester Wheelers) and have virtually been elbowed out of their way***. This club was something else altogether ... The bikes varied from cheap-and-cheerful to expensive-looking, the riders from slim-and-fast to bigger-and-slower but what they had in common was that most of them called out cheery hellos and asked if we needed any help with the puncture. I probably got more offers of help in 5 minutes than I have had in my previous 30 years of roadside fault-fixing. They were a really friendly crowd. I would be interested to know what club it was. 

** Okay, she was on a bike, so technically she is a cyclist, but she usually only averages 1-2 rides a year. I'm encouraging her so it is up to about 10 rides in the past year.

*** To be fair, they are usually going 'full-gas' up the hill and the riders behind the one in front are grovelling to stay on the wheel. They probably have tunnel vision by then. It would be nice if the front rider gave me the 1.5 metres clearance that car drivers are supposed to though, rather than leading a mini-peloton past at 35 km/hr only half a metre from my right elbow!


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## screenman (29 May 2018)

Dave Davenport said:


> I've known a few people to move to my club after 'not getting on' at another club, only to not 'get on' at mine and move on again and then I hear they've quit that one too (a couple have come back for a bit before disappearing). Makes you wonder who's got the problem.



Blimey, that saved me some typing. I also have come across the same on many occasions.


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## snorri (29 May 2018)

DCLane said:


> on a 1990's Raleigh Pioneer.


If your only bike is a 1990s Raleigh Pioneer then one bike is enough, it's all you need.


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## rogerzilla (29 May 2018)

Be wary of any club that has a "club run" and an alternative "beginners' ride". The club run will turn into an eyeballs-out effort wound up by the Cat 1 racers at the front . 29mph on the flat, I kid you not, and if you lose the slipstream you won't see them again that day. Meanwhile, the beginners' ride withers on the vine (I've seen it badged as "also for women and juniors"...they might as well have added "cripples" to cap its unattractiveness to anyone moderately fit). Anyone in the middle is squeezed out and doesn't bother.

Better clubs send the racers off on their own club run where they can happily tear along at 30mph, then everyone meets up at the same cafe.


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## PaulSB (30 May 2018)

I would have to disagree with @rogerzilla regarding “club run” and “beginners.”

My club runs the following groups Intro (12-13) Progression (13-14), Club (15-16), Inters (14-17 and potentially 5-6000+ feet) Sporting (20+) and Racing (23+). Averages in brackets. Intro is intended to introduce people to group Cycling but in reality this, along with the Club ride, has evolved in to a leisurely paced social ride.

All our rides have a definition or description of what a rider can expect on the ride. The club ethos is no one is dropped even when a rider insists the group leave him/her. We do let experienced male riders drop off or leave the group if they wish but we would never leave a female rider - not through ability but because of other potential threats to women.

Should a newbie turn up to try a ride he/she will be looked after. If they have clearly chosen the wrong ride the other options for future rides will be gently pointed out. Should someone repeatedly turn out for a ride which is beyond them a quiet word will be had.

We also run four training rides on a Tuesday evening. One leaves early for distance and speed everyone knows it’s eyeballs out. The other three rides leave on the same route at two minute intervals. Riders join whichever they wish. The idea is start with the fastest you can hack, drop off if necessary and join the one behind. The third, slowest, group picks up everyone and stays together.

Thursday night we run hilly training. All riders set off together on the same route, hills at own pace with defined regroup spots. Usually a more experienced rider will drop back to encourage others. At the end we all go to the pub!

We have TT and Racing sections.

All official Club rides, the above, have a route published in advance. The exception being the Sporting Ride which decides on the day depending on who turns out.

There are also three informal rides Hilly Wednesday, Friday Fry Up and Wide Awake Club (6.00am start).

We feel this caters for everyone. Where there is a problem is with riders wanting to move up a level. Once a month the club and Inters rides put on an easier route as a taster. The biggest difficulty though is getting people to understand two things - moving up will hurt and requires real effort. Secondly that no one minds if someone who is truly trying slows the pace down.

Membership is £20 and one major benefit is members get free access to the club Premium RidewithGPS account. Individual Premium membership direct to RWGPS would be £57pa.

We wave and smile at everyone.


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## Dave Davenport (30 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> I would have to disagree with @rogerzilla regarding “club run” and “beginners.”
> 
> My club runs the following groups Intro (12-13) Progression (13-14), Club (15-16), Inters (14-17 and potentially 5-6000+ feet) Sporting (20+) and Racing (23+). Averages in brackets. Intro is intended to introduce people to group Cycling but in reality this, along with the Club ride, has evolved in to a leisurely paced social ride.
> 
> ...



Yea but, despite all that, your club (and hence you and all the members) are tw@y, as every single club in existence is.


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## ColinJ (30 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> The club ethos is no one is dropped even when a rider insists the group leave him/her. We do let experienced male riders drop off or leave the group if they wish but we would never leave a female rider - not through ability but because of other potential threats to women.


I think it is good that you prefer to not leave male riders behind but who judges how 'experienced' those male riders are? If I told someone that I was happy to fix my own problem or ride back alone then I would expect my wishes to be complied with. I would feel pretty annoyed if somebody said that I was not capable of looking after myself and refused to go on.

Similarly, I think it is good to reassure women that they will not be left alone in the middle of nowhere but if a woman insists that she is okay to be left then it seems a bit patronising to tell her that she is wrong!


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## PaulSB (30 May 2018)

Dave Davenport said:


> Yea but, despite all that, your club (and hence you and all the members) are tw@y, as every single club in existence is.



By calling me tw@y I presume you are attempting an insult. I don’t know you, you don’t know me and there is no reason to react in this way. It says a lot about you.


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## Dave Davenport (30 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> By calling me tw@y I presume you are attempting an insult. I don’t know you, you don’t know me and there is no reason to react in this way. It says a lot about you.


I was assuming you'd read all the previous posts (i.e the third) and that you'd realise where I was coming from, my mistake.


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## PaulSB (30 May 2018)

Dave Davenport said:


> I was assuming you'd read all the previous posts (i.e the third) and that you'd realise where I was coming from, my mistake.



Thank you and I apologise if I’ve misinterpreted you. I had read all the posts. I don’t know what “tw@y” means. Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted it, perhaps not. I simply don’t know.


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## mjr (30 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> I would have to disagree with @rogerzilla regarding “club run” and “beginners.”
> 
> My club runs the following groups Intro (12-13) Progression (13-14), Club (15-16), Inters (14-17 and potentially 5-6000+ feet) Sporting (20+) and Racing (23+). Averages in brackets. [...] Should someone repeatedly turn out for a ride which is beyond them a quiet word will be had.


And me and many other riders who can not reliably predict when we can sustain 13mph sees that and feels shut out.

Also, this says there are six groups, but elsewhere you refer to the "third, slowest group". Huh?



PaulSB said:


> We feel this caters for everyone.


Maybe you should try asking people other than "we" how it looks?



PaulSB said:


> Secondly that no one minds if someone who is truly trying slows the pace down.


That's rather at odds with the threat to take such people to one side for "a quiet word".


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## PaulSB (30 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I think it is good that you prefer to not leave male riders behind but who judges how 'experienced' those male riders are? If I told someone that I was happy to fix my own problem or ride back alone then I would expect my wishes to be complied with. I would feel pretty annoyed if somebody said that I was not capable of looking after myself and refused to go on.
> 
> Similarly, I think it is good to reassure women that they will not be left alone in the middle of nowhere but if a woman insists that she is okay to be left then it seems a bit patronising to tell her that she is wrong!



I fully understand what you’re saying Colin. Perhaps my phrasing was poor. What I mean is no one is ever dropped. To me this means abandoning someone who can’t keep the pace, is tired etc. As a club we don’t think this should happen but obviously if a rider simply wants to do their own thing that’s different.

I feel our ethos is about making sure everyone gets home safely if they for some reason aren’t able to stay with the group.

There is another aspect to this, which opens up a whole different discussion, but it’s my experience not everyone on a group ride will know where they are or how to get home!!! If this is someone who is struggling it seems to me the responsible action is to get them home safely.


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## ColinJ (30 May 2018)

I was thinking just now that some people may _say _that they are okay because they are too embarrassed to ask for help or feel that they are being a nuisance by asking others to slow down for them. So, yes, I think it would be good to make sure that they felt able to do so!


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## PaulSB (30 May 2018)

ColinJ said:


> I was thinking just now that some people may _say _that they are okay because they are too embarrassed to ask for help or feel that they are being a nuisance by asking others to slow down for them. So, yes, I think it would be good to make sure that they felt able to do so!



This often sums up the situation. People who would like to try another level worry they will be embarrassed, slow the group, spoil the ride etc. It often stops them trying to progress. Then a struggling rider doesn’t want the group to slow or wait etc, when the truth is he/she is hurting like hell and wants to get home. 

It’s so hard to get across the message “we’ve all been there and we understand.” 

It’s about inclusion. I’ve ridden home with struggling riders on several occasions and I’ve yet to find someone who was upset by this. Usually they’re grateful and pleased to have had the support. 

Hell I’ve sat on enough wheels hiding behind the “big guy.”


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## mcshroom (30 May 2018)

The idea of being able to keep up can put people off riding with clubs all together. I know it has me for many years, and I'm only just thinking about trying out some of the local club rides. Partly that's because a friend of mine is a member of Darlington Road Club and rides with the 'novices' ride. I've been out with them a few times when I'm over, and I must admit I enjoy it


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## PaulSB (30 May 2018)

I always feel it’s helpful to discuss a post in its entirety rather than individual sentences taken out of context but I’ll try to respond clearly. 



mjr said:


> And me and many other riders who can not reliably predict when we can sustain 13mph sees that and feels shut out.



I can understand this. My feeling would be it is impossible for any club of any type (Cycling, football, Bridge) to accommodate all abilities. A club should make clear what it can offer members and potential members and people can make a choice as to whether or not it’s the right club for them. In my area there are clubs which only offer TT and Racing - I can’t do either so I know these are not the right clubs for me. 

Locally I know there are clubs and groups which do cater for those who like to ride differently to mine. People join them. 

I’ve always been a strong believer if one thinks something needs changing then one should get involved and help make that change. If you feel your local clubs don’t offer rides for which you perceive a demand may I suggest approaching the Club Secretary and ask how you could get involved with providing the ride. 



> Also, this says there are six groups, but elsewhere you refer to the "third, slowest group". Huh?



Unfortunately you’ve mixed up the weekend rides with the Tuesday training rides. The training ride has three groups of which the third is the slowest. As I explained during training rides members start in any group they wish. The idea is for people to challenge themselves in a fast group safe in the knowledge they can drop back to a slower one if needed. I do this myself most weeks - 12 miles on my limit before dropping back to another group for the final 15. The last, third group doesn’t drop anyone. 




> Maybe you should try asking people other than "we" how it looks?



I’m not sure who you want asked? Non members? Our rides constantly evolve to accommodate what members are asking for. 




> That's rather at odds with the threat to take such people to one side for "a quiet word".



It’s difficult to understand why you suggest there is a “threat.” I feel I’m clear all that happens is a rider would be quietly and privately asked if they feel the Ride is the right one for them. If that’s a threat I’m a little taken aback.


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## mjr (31 May 2018)

PaulSB said:


> I always feel it’s helpful to discuss a post in its entirety rather than individual sentences taken out of context but I’ll try to respond clearly.


If anyone wants the context, they can click the little up arrow at the top of the quote. I feel it's helpful to trim quotes to what's actually being discussed.



PaulSB said:


> My feeling would be it is impossible for any club of any type (Cycling, football, Bridge) to accommodate all abilities.


That seems to contradict the earlier claim:


PaulSB said:


> We feel this caters for everyone.



I think a club can accommodate all abilities but it's very rare among cycling clubs.



PaulSB said:


> I’ve always been a strong believer if one thinks something needs changing then one should get involved and help make that change. If you feel your local clubs don’t offer rides for which you perceive a demand may I suggest approaching the Club Secretary and ask how you could get involved with providing the ride.


I am involved with what's basically a transport and touring club, but it is irritating when local clubs aimed at faster sports-style riders claim to cater for everyone when they don't and all sorts of isms are rife. It surely doesn't help anyone to have riders turn up to clubs and get dropped or have people grousing about being cold or held up or be taken aside for a quiet word to discourage them from turning up to that type of ride again.

I feel our group is far more open about the existence of other groups with other types of ride than they are about us (I just checked the website of the oldest local sports cycling club and there's still no link to us) - is this because they want to get at least one annual membership fee out of newbies whereas we don't use that financial model?



PaulSB said:


> Unfortunately you’ve mixed up the weekend rides with the Tuesday training rides.


OK. Which rides have six groups then? Is this made clearer on the group's website?



PaulSB said:


> I’m not sure who you want asked? Non members? Our rides constantly evolve to accommodate what members are asking for.


Asking non-members seems a good idea if you really want to cater for everyone rather than only cater for all members. Also, asking people who joined for a year and then quit (or even asking new members who stop before their paid year's up) would seem like a good idea for inclusion and renewals and even just keeping a good feeling about the club... but actually, I'm just as happy if you're honest and say that you feel it's impossible to cater for everyone, as at least then there's no false hope.



PaulSB said:


> IIt’s difficult to understand why you suggest there is a “threat.” I feel I’m clear all that happens is a rider would be quietly and privately asked if they feel the Ride is the right one for them. If that’s a threat I’m a little taken aback.


It all depends how it's actually done, but being taken to one side for a quiet word is the sort of euphemism used to cover things like shouting at people that their cycling is "no good to man nor beast" which is what one club leader did to a small group of us on a so-called "newcomers" ride. Most of us never rode with that club again, as far as I know. I can see it's great not to do it noisily as some sort of announcement with everyone's full attention, but why does it need to be done in private rather than in the open so the subject can call for help if they feel they need it?

Have you never suffered being taken to one side for that sort of quiet word?


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