# Short stem / wide bars - does it work on a retro MTB?



## ChrisEyles (23 Dec 2016)

I've been thinking about trying out a short stem/wide bar combo on my old-school FS Marin. It's currently got 600mm bars (with a little rise and a tiny bit of back sweep) and a whooping great 120mm stem. 

First off, whatever else, that stem is just too long. I've got some bar ends on, and if I try to use them on a steep climb I invariably lose all traction on the rear wheel. So one option is to keep the narrow bars and get a 100mm-ish stem - this would make the reach, stem length, and bar width very similar to my similar vintage rigid bike, so I guess it should work fine. 

However, while I do get on well with the long stem / narrow bar combo and enjoy the way the bike handles on smooth-ish tracks, I've been finding that with the FS, which enables and encourages you to go much faster on rough stuff than you can on a rigid, I've had a few hairy moments trying to hold the line I want to through rocks and ruts. I guess this is partly because the narrow-ish bars give a bit less leverage, but also because the long stem means the left and right hands don't really oppose one another much when the wheel turns (i.e. it's not an ergonomically strong position to resist the wheel being turned). So I've been thinking of getting a cheap 60-90mm stem and 680-720mm riser bars and seeing how I get on with them. 

I've ridden a 90mm stem with a 700mm bar on a modern hardtail quite a bit, and while it felt horrible at first, I've now got used to it and actually quite like it. However I've no idea if the head angle is slacker, or the top tube of the bike longer than on my late nineties MTBs. 

T'interwebs is full of armchair theorists on the subject, but I haven't been able to find accounts of many people who've tried the switch on a retro MTB (with associated steep HA and shorter top tube). Anyone on here taken the plunge, and if so did it work, or is this set-up not really compatible with older bikes?


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## ChrisEyles (23 Dec 2016)

I guess intended use is also important - for me this will be blues and reds at trail centres, singletrack through the woods, and lots of bridleways across Dartmoor/Exmoor (with some long tough climbs). It's the fast descents down rock strewn bridleways that have given me the most grief, but being able to get my weight back behind a shorter stem will be nice for the trail centres too. In an ideal world I wouldn't want to sacrifice too much climbing performance either. 

Haha, the only other thing that makes me reluctant to try is that I'd have to give up my beloved cow horn bar ends if I fitted a wide riser bar (....unless maybe I fit them inboard of the grips, hehe )


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## Hacienda71 (23 Dec 2016)

I have put wider bars and a shorter stem on my 2004 fs stumpjumper and it definitely feels more responsive on the trails. It used to be xc orientated with a 110 stem and fairly narrow bars. I also feel a bit less pitched forward on technical steep stuff.


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## ChrisEyles (23 Dec 2016)

That's good to know @Hacienda71. What length stem and bars did you go from/to? And did you find you had any difficulty getting enough weight over the front wheel to corner at speed afterwards?


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## Hacienda71 (23 Dec 2016)

60mm stem and 720 bars iirc so quite a big change. Took it around the Black at Llandegla with some of the chaps off here a few weeks ago and it felt better than the last time I was there with the long stem and narrow bars. I did worry I would be too far back on the steeper technical climbs but it was fine.


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## ChrisEyles (23 Dec 2016)

That sounds really rather promising! I think I'm pretty sold on trying some 720mm bars, but still not sure what to go for on the stem from 60-90mm. Good to know the front wheel wasn't all over the place on the climbs too.


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## 3narf (4 Jan 2017)

I have wide, riser bars and 50mm stem on my 1992 Orange Clockwork, as well as Kona Project 2 forks. I definitely prefer the way it rides even though it was designed for XC, and came with narrow, flat bars and 130mm (!) stem.

It doesn't look the part any more, but that's fine with me. I'm not one for retro builds anyway!


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## ChrisEyles (4 Jan 2017)

Well, I've ordered some cheapy 720mm bars and an 80mm stem (with a bit of rise to it, so effectively slightly shorter). When they eventually arrive from China I shall see how it goes!


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## 3narf (5 Jan 2017)

The seat is high for efficient pedalling but it looks better a bit lower, tbh...


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## fossyant (5 Jan 2017)

Thinking of changing my bars to wider ones. I chopped loads off the width years ago but might go for a change.


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## clockworksimon (5 Jan 2017)

I've got a riser stem and wider than original riser bars on my '94 Orange C16r. Still use bar ends which are nice when climbing to get the weight distribution right. The bike is much more comfortable and better on technical trails. Fine for the black trail at Llandegla.


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## ChrisEyles (6 Jan 2017)

@3narf nice Orange! I toyed with the idea of trying out a SS mountain bike but it never seems such a good idea when I'm out on Dartmoor slogging up a hill... The bars I've ordered have a bit less rise and a bit more back sweep than the ones you've got on there. 

I just had an email from the seller saying they're having postage problems so will probably take yonks to arrive by boat, but then again there's no big rush. Going to replace the drivetrain too 'cos a) it's knackered and b) I've always wanted to have a go on an elliptical chainring. Will put up some piccies and a ride report when it's all finished.


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## Jody (6 Jan 2017)

I have always ridden wide bars and a short (ish) stem even going back to the mid 90's. My current bike was on a 110mm stem with standard bars but quickly swapped for 50mm and 760 bars. I'm not a tall or wide chap so more than 760/80 feels a bit odd. You should have no problem switching to wider bars and short stem but some people don't like it especially with steep head angles. The front end can be very quick to react, feeling a little skittish and steep climbs can take a bit of manipulation to keep the front wheel down.


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## ChrisEyles (1 Feb 2017)

I finally got around to putting on a new set of bars/stem - in the end I went for 720mm risers (with a fair bit of backsweep) and an 80mm stem with a bit of rise to it (which puts the bars just a tad below the saddle at optimum pedalling height). 






My first impression was that aesthetically I don't like them as much as the old ones (my beloved bar ends had to go)... but a quick scootle around outside the house felt rather promising, I really liked the way the bike felt diving into a sharp corner. I also felt like the high saddle was getting in the way of me leaning the bike as much as I wanted to, which interestingly I never found a problem with the longer stem/narrower bars. I'm itching to get out to my local trails and see just how big a difference the new set-up makes, but the forecast for the weekend is abysmal so guess it will have to wait a little while yet. 

I also repaced the entire drivetrain since it was knackered when I got the bike and was starting to skip. I swapped out the 11-30 cassette for an 11-34 one, which already felt a lot nicer on the one short sharp gradient I tested it out on, and I got a narrow/wide chainring to hopefully help keep the chain in place (I removed the front derailleur, will have to put it back on if the chain drops on the rough stuff). At the same time I swapped the SRAM shifter/rear mech for a nicer 90s shimano set I had in the parts bin, which again has a bit more tension to keep the chain in place... all in all it's been a thoroughly enjoyable bit of tinkering while the rain's been pouring down outside


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## 3narf (2 Feb 2017)

It looks great, C! For years we struggled with stretched out riding positions and it was all fashion. Emulate those XC racers...


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## Nigeyy (2 Feb 2017)

I don't mind admitting when I find I've changed my ways.....

In the past I was a narrow handlebar/long stem kind of person, but the purchase of a new FS about 5 year ago with a riser and short stem changed my opinion completely. I immediately found that I was more comfortable -and yes, while it now is slightly more difficult going uphill, it was nothing I couldn't deal with and had the added bonus of better handling over obstacles. So much so, that when I reinvigorated my old hardtail ("Oldies but goodies") I went with a riser bar and short stem for the same effect (so yes, risers and short stem do work on old mtbs as far as I'm concerned!).

The only thing I wasn't willing to give up were my Profile Stubby bar ends -I just find them so comfortable (particularly going uphill), and I'm confident enough not to take notice of the mtb fashion police. I mean, if they work, they work, and I really don't care what they look like. Mind you, I am a bit older and I do wear Crocs too  Once you get a bit older, you just realize you can't give a toss so long as it works for you.



ChrisEyles said:


> My first impression was that aesthetically I don't like them as much as the old ones (my beloved bar ends had to go)...


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## ChrisEyles (2 Feb 2017)

Thanks @3narf! I do rather like the way the bike looks now, in a different-than-usual way (to me, the most beautiful MTB ever is the old head down arse up GT zaskar). 

I don't think bar ends are going to work for me on these bars, being forward and with arms outstretched feels weird! Maybe a pair of the little stubby ones would be good for longer days riding, but the cow horns are definitely out. I joked that the only way to keep them would be to mount them inboard of the brakes/shifters, but I think the shape of the riser bar would interfere (and it would look stoopid!). 

When I get out to the trails I'm going to have a play with saddle height too. Previously I've always preferred the seat up high (pretty much optimum pedalling efficiency minus a smidge) and couldn't find much benefit from dropping it, but leaning the bike more seems natural with the wider bars... will be interesting to see how it changes things around.


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## ChrisEyles (11 Feb 2017)

Took the bike out for it's first proper outing at the local trail centre today. It was awesome  We had some rather unusual snow mixed in with the hail down here in Devon so the woods were looking really beautiful, it was a cracking (cold!) winter's day. 













The new cockpit set-up worked out really nicely, I managed to get some really nice flow through the bends at slightly faster speeds than usual - leaning into the corners seems to take a bit less "grunt" than with the narrow bars and feels really natural.

I did have one knuckle-rapping moment going through a speed control chicane, probably lucky that it came early on in the ride to remind me and not at high speed on a tree trunk! I've definitely still got a bit of work to do on that little shimmy to get the bars through a narrow gap.

So the answer seems to be a definite yes - wide bars work nicely on an old-school bike, and make for a correspondingly wide grin on the way around the trails


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## ChrisEyles (11 Feb 2017)

I did have a bit of a mechanical along the way... one of the jockey wheels fell out my derailleur (not a problem I've come across before, and I *thought* the screw was done up tight). I thought I'd just dropped a chain so sailed all the way down the downhill section thinking I'd pick it up at the bottom - cue a long walk to the top! Fortunately the bike hire shop at the centre were really helpful and dug out an old STX mech with a matching jockey wheel. Besides that I didn't drop a single chain in over 20 miles including some rough stuff, which I'm really pleased about, so the front mech will be staying off.


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## Kajjal (11 Feb 2017)

Bar ends and narrow bars are no use to anyone on a mountain bike. My old orange xc hardtail (1996) had both 

It now has a wider riser bar and rides really well considering, very smooth gear changes and the vbrakes do stop you after a bit. I took it up into the mountains by the coast in Ireland and it was a very different ride to modern bikes


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## Hugh Manatee (11 Feb 2017)

Do you mean they sell something other than 21" flat bars and 150mm stems now? Those crazy kids....

It'll explain why so many end up wrapped around trees on the Chase. They can't fit through the gaps!


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## ChrisEyles (12 Feb 2017)

Haha, yes, I'm going to have to watch it squeezing between some of the gaps on the trails I regularly ride and *used to* fit through fine! 

Much as I love the new set-up on this bike, I think I'll be keeping the 580mm bars and long stem on my other (rigid) MTB, since it's nice to be able to pick from two quite different bikes... I'm always faintly suspicious of trends like this (they sometimes seem more about form than function) but I'm convinced that the wide bar/short stem set-up does make for an easier life on the trails. 

One modern trend I'm not quite so convinced by is the oval chainring I fitted to the bike - I honestly couldn't tell the difference from a regular round one! It's a nice idea but doesn't seem to make much difference out in the real world.


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## ChrisEyles (12 Feb 2017)

I guess the next thing I should experiment with is a lower seat height for descending. At the moment it just feels dead wrong and I end up popping the seat up to near optimum pedalling height after a few minutes. I'd love to have a go on a dropper post but they seem a bit pricey for what they are.


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## Jody (12 Feb 2017)

Try riding with the seat marginally under optimum height. It will leave you enough to manoeuvre without having to keep adjusting the seat. You should only need to drop it right down if you are doing really steep runs of techy stuff with big hits. I had a dropper but got rid of it when it developed a fault. I only used it a small percentage of time so don't really miss it.


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## ChrisEyles (12 Feb 2017)

I've currently got the seat about an inch and a half under optimum pedalling height. This seems to be a pretty good compromise for pedalling and handling. The bike's got a high-ish bottom bracket when the rear suspension isn't compressed/sagging, so if I set it up right at optimum height it's a bit of a hop to get on/off the seat!


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## Nigeyy (14 Feb 2017)

I had that happen to me once as well. After getting home I put a replacement in -and if I remember rightly -couldn't tighten it too much without causing friction on the jockey wheel and ended up putting some threadlock on the bolt. Strangely it was just that one derailleur and many derailleurs later never had it happen again, so I suppose take the threadlock comment with a large grain of salt. 

Really nice to see the pictures, have fun!



ChrisEyles said:


> I did have a bit of a mechanical along the way... one of the jockey wheels fell out my derailleur (not a problem I've come across before, and I *thought* the screw was done up tight). I thought I'd just dropped a chain so sailed all the way down the downhill section thinking I'd pick it up at the bottom - cue a long walk to the top! Fortunately the bike hire shop at the centre were really helpful and dug out an old STX mech with a matching jockey wheel. Besides that I didn't drop a single chain in over 20 miles including some rough stuff, which I'm really pleased about, so the front mech will be staying off.


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## Celticdog (22 Mar 2017)

I changed over from standard bars to charge straws- big mistake, no control whatsoever. My thinking was that I could ride straight through those A frame metal gates you find on many bridlepaths and trails they put up to discourage the off road motorcyclists. I've been keeping it simple too, no bar ends and I've lopped a bit off either end to about 580mm, it seems to work for me.


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## Drago (22 Mar 2017)

Shorter stems can be good. Google "the tiller effect".


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