# Panorama, BBC1 tonight. 8.00pm



## Paulus (2 Nov 2022)

No doubt it will be more of the same motorist rants about cyclists and why we shouldn't be on the roads, should pay tax, ect ect..
But you never know, it might, just might be a bit more balanced in its content.


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## Baldy (2 Nov 2022)

From the BBC? Don't hold your breath.


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## vickster (2 Nov 2022)

There’s going to be a spot on the 1 o’clock BBC1 news in a bit too, presumably ahead of the programme this evening


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## MontyVeda (2 Nov 2022)

was briefly mentioned on 6music news this morning... the snippet said something about mandatory cycle lanes and licensing us too, so it'll likely be the usual codswallop from the motorcentric brigade.


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## Phil Fouracre (2 Nov 2022)

Just had a quick look! Same old same old!


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## matticus (2 Nov 2022)

Paulus said:


> But you never know, it might, just might be a bit more balanced in its content.



Would you like to make a wager?


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## Paulus (2 Nov 2022)

matticus said:


> Would you like to make a wager?



No.


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## Rooster1 (2 Nov 2022)

Oh dear god.


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## Phil Fouracre (2 Nov 2022)

Just finished watching it, with a cuppa! should have had a scotch. They really do pick their interviewees to paint a picture - topped off by the lumpen bigot Rod Liddle! What is the point??


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## newts (2 Nov 2022)

Didn't Jeremy Vine learn all he knows about broadcasting from watching old episodes of Panarama?
Sensationalist tripe.


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## Glow worm (2 Nov 2022)

I saw this was going to be on and immediately sighed. Had to switch Radio Norfolk off this morning as they were basically just inviting people on to have a pop a cyclists. I just don’t get what it is about the simple act of jumping on a bicycle that enrages so many Brits- it really is very odd.

At a guess, perhaps it’s jealousy. They’ve bought into this mythical freedom dream, egged on by ridiculous car ads, of empty, open roads and nothing in the way, spending absurd amounts of cash on vehicles they can’t afford, only to get stuck in gridlock. Then they spot us, whistling past them, wind in our hair, barely a care in the world, and they feel (quite rightly) they’ve been had. Shame.


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## Brandane (2 Nov 2022)

Just saw the trailer on the 6.00 news. Sums it up when they say "We (BBC) asked MOTORISTS ...... what they thought of cyclists...." 
I'm hoping, but not with much confidence, that it will be more balanced than that.


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## The Central Scrutinizer (2 Nov 2022)

Just seen the wife's set it to record for tonight.I said to her i won't be watching it as it will be the same ol' one sided clap trap.


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## Mike_P (2 Nov 2022)

5 Live Breakfast quite sensibly tried to turn the debate into responsible highway users v irresponsible highway users. Wasn't helped by a cyclist from Derby who had been knocked off his bike a few times saying that was all part of cycling


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## fossyant (2 Nov 2022)

Glow worm said:


> I saw this as going to be on and immediately sighed. Had to switch Radio Norfolk off this morning as they were basically just inviting people on to have a pop a cyclists. I just don’t get what it is about the simple act of jumping on a bicycle that enrages so many Brits- it really is very odd.
> 
> At a guess, perhaps it’s jealousy. They’ve bought into this mythical freedom dream, egged on by ridiculous car ads, of empty, open roads and nothing in the way, spending absurd amounts of cash on vehicles they can’t afford, only to get stuck in gridlock. Then they spot us, whistling past them, wind in our hair, barely a care in the world, and they feel (quite rightly) they’ve been had. Shame.



And electric car drivers just sit there in the same traffic. Its not a magical new transport, nor is it that green, unlike cyclists. 

We did a session about discrimination at work recently (not about your usual stuff) and it got me thinking, people just abuse cyclists cos they are cyclists. It's actually not on.


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## matticus (2 Nov 2022)

I managed to not watcj the CH5 Lycra Louts prog, I'm pretty sure I can avoid watching this one.
(p.s. yes I do have a telly.)


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## matticus (2 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> We did a session about discrimination at work recently (not about your usual stuff) and it got me thinking, people just abuse cyclists cos they are cyclists. It's actually not on.



Yes. We are one of the few remaining "Out" groups that it is legal to harass, threaten, make crap jokes about etc ... even in the workplace.
The same perpetrators would almost all be making racist/sexist jokes if they thought they could.

(and yes, I know the latter are worse.)


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## postman (2 Nov 2022)

What are motorists views on electric scooters.


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## boydj (2 Nov 2022)

I watched this on i-player this morning. 

The program is based on, and made by a cyclist, though there is plenty of input from drivers. I thought it was pretty fair to cyclists overall.


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## Glow worm (2 Nov 2022)

fossyant said:


> And electric car drivers just sit there in the same traffic. Its not a magical new transport, nor is it that green, unlike cyclists.
> 
> We did a session about discrimination at work recently (not about your usual stuff) and it got me thinking, people just abuse cyclists cos they are cyclists. It's actually not on.



Exactly. Electric cars aren’t here to save the planet, they’re here to save the motor industry.


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## tom73 (2 Nov 2022)

Just watched it on iplayer not a bad go at trying to show the problems. 
Too one sided on stats with nothing to counter act the survey findings. 
Stand out point for me police found his bike wedged in a tree, driver at scene "I think i've hit two" 
Charged with Careless driving nothing careless about not being bothered to look out the windscreen and killing two people.
That's the real problem as @fossyant says we get abuse just because we cycle and once on a bike we are seen as none human. 
As for that newspaper hack he can go and do one.


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## Jameshow (2 Nov 2022)

5 abreast cyclists!!


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## Glow worm (2 Nov 2022)

Seen enough.
-Are you glad they ripped out the cyclie path he asks a driver stuck in gridlock -“ yeh cos it keep the traffic moving”
-Driver - “That cyclist should be in the bus lane” - camera pans across to lane rammed with parked up buses.
The gammon is way too strong on this one.


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## Jameshow (2 Nov 2022)

https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/ne...-deaths-haddenham-cyclists-a40-wycombe-crash/

Shocking result driving too fast I expect.


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## DCLane (2 Nov 2022)

Not massively biased, but naturally included a range of opinionated characters. The end; a plea for better infrastructure, probably wouldn't have made much of a headline.


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## biggs682 (2 Nov 2022)

People just need to be sensible and think of others if you ask me


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## united4ever (2 Nov 2022)

The market trader in her van pointing out the empty bike lanes. This does happen a lot where people say that nobody is using them.


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## Mike_P (2 Nov 2022)

Maybe I should have sent in my video of two deciding to a red light. Myself and another cyclist muttered about the car drivers concerned.


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## tom73 (2 Nov 2022)

biggs682 said:


> People just need to be sensible and think of others if you ask me



Sadly we live in country that when KFC ran out of chicken some phoned the police. 


united4ever said:


> The market trader in her van pointing out the empty bike lanes. This does happen a lot where people say that nobody is using them.



It looked like the end of the day no one was around what’s she expect ?


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## marshmella (2 Nov 2022)

Started watching the programme but gave up due to the usual comments. Do these anti cyclists have issues with Motor cyclists aswell? Or just cyclists because of the slower speeds?


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## Mike_P (2 Nov 2022)

Maybe they should have asked what they thought of horse riders - I has some pratt on Sunday stuck behind me briefly and could not wait to over rev pass in completely the wrong gear using up too much of that expensive stuff they run on.


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## Brandane (2 Nov 2022)

No-one watching that will be encouraged to cycle. 

As for cycling infrastructure, I'm torn. It shouldn't be needed at all, if drivers would play nice. But they don't play nice, so we get some half baked useless "facilities" which we are then expected to use, and incur the wrath of drivers if we don't. 

Some proper enforcement of the law, and deterrent sentences for law breakers would help, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.


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## sheddy (2 Nov 2022)

(Lengthy) complaint form https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint


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## HLaB (2 Nov 2022)

Glow worm said:


> I saw this as going to be on and immediately sighed. Had to switch Radio Norfolk off this morning as they were basically just inviting people on to have a pop a cyclists. I just don’t get what it is about the simple act of jumping on a bicycle that enrages so many Brits- it really is very odd.
> 
> At a guess, perhaps it’s jealousy. They’ve bought into this mythical freedom dream, egged on by ridiculous car ads, of empty, open roads and nothing in the way, spending absurd amounts of cash on vehicles they can’t afford, only to get stuck in gridlock. Then they spot us, whistling past them, wind in our hair, barely a care in the world, and they feel (quite rightly) they’ve been had. Shame.



Folk don't like anything that's different its just closet racism. I hate programs like tonight's they just stir it all up again and divide society more; they do nothing to make folk think about other people and lives.


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## HLaB (2 Nov 2022)

boydj said:


> I watched this on i-player this morning.
> 
> The program is based on, and made by a cyclist, though there is plenty of input from drivers. I thought it was pretty fair to cyclists overall.



From a rational person it seemed fair but from a far right racist it gave too much air time to folk of the same opinion, reinforcing their hatred, and dividing society more 👎


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## mustang1 (3 Nov 2022)

Glow worm said:


> Seen enough.
> -Are you glad they ripped out the cyclie path he asks a driver stuck in gridlock -“ yeh cos it keep the traffic moving”
> -Driver - “That cyclist should be in the bus lane” - camera pans across to lane rammed with parked up buses.
> The gammon is way too strong on this one.



Yeah I know right! The guy was sitting/stopped/stuck in traffic while saying "it's good they ripped up the bike lane which gets traffic moving" (paraphrased). I thought Richard Bilton was going to nail him right there and say "errr, but you _are_ stuck in traffic." I would love to have seen the look on the driver!

I cringed at the "MAMIL" reference but I guess it's in the British psyche (thanks, media) so that's us now.

On the whole though, just having 30 minutes of air-time, I thought they done a reasonably good job at giving both points of view. They had to give the car drivers air-time to bash the cyclists, and vice versa. Richard should have questioned that newspaper guy (whatshisnameagain) a bit more on his views.
The car drivers should have been challenged with their opinions but then there was that lady who went the wrong way across a roundabout. Regardless of my mode of transport, I can see that lady done the wrong thing and caused a crash but I wonder how many driving-only viewers can open their minds and say "Hey, that driver was clearly in the wrong."

If Richard Bilton could get an hour of air-time for this program, it might have been able to challenge some of the misguided opinions of the car drivers. Or perhaps someone with a stronger "I'm not taking this crap" personality. On the whole, I thought it was pretty ok.


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## cyberknight (3 Nov 2022)

it was a lot more balanced than i expected


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## matticus (3 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> it was a lot more balanced than i expected



But what was the point?


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## cyberknight (3 Nov 2022)

matticus said:


> But what was the point?



you expect anything from the mainstream media to actually change anything ?


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## Brandane (3 Nov 2022)

HLaB said:


> Folk don't like anything that's different its just closet racism. I hate programs like tonight's they just stir it all up again and divide society more; they do nothing to make folk think about other people and lives.



I wonder how many punishment passes (just for being a cyclist), verbal abuse (for being a cyclist), or even cyclists being deliberately knocked off their bikes will happen as a direct result of last night's programme. 

There are bound to be some knuckle draggers who watched that and thought " yeh, they're right, I hate cyclists too. And if I hit one at a roundabout, or even kill a couple of 'em on a country road, I'll walk out the court with a fine and a ban (that I will ignore and never get caught anyway)."


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## Cycleops (3 Nov 2022)

Plus disturbing findings on motorists attitude to cyclists:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63492215


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## Mike_P (3 Nov 2022)

I had a look at a Panorama Twitter feed, a lot of support for cyclists and one motorist saying it had made them more aware of cyclists issues.


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## Brandane (3 Nov 2022)

Mike_P said:


> I had a look at a Panorama Twitter feed, a lot of support for cyclists and one motorist saying it had made them more aware of cyclists issues.



Good that something positive has come out of it. But it's unlikely that the knuckle draggers will post THEIR feelings. And as we are well aware, it's already the case that 99.99% of drivers are fine with cyclists, or at least tolerate us. It only takes that one idiot to cause a close pass, or worse.


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## C R (3 Nov 2022)

Brandane said:


> Good that something positive has come out of it. But it's unlikely that the knuckle draggers will post THEIR feelings. And as we are well aware, it's already the case that 99.99% of drivers are fine with cyclists, or at least tolerate us. It only takes that one idiot to cause a close pass, or worse.



I think that Panorama is unlikely to be what the "knuckle draggers" watch in the evening.


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## matticus (3 Nov 2022)

cyberknight said:


> you expect anything from the mainstream media to actually change anything ?



I'd settle for "_do no harm_" !!!


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## Brandane (3 Nov 2022)

C R said:


> I think that Panorama is unlikely to be what the "knuckle draggers" watch in the evening.



Not sure about that, there are some quite sophisticated knuckle draggers these days, they drive BMW's and Range Rovers, and live in nice houses. I'm sure they like to keep up with the issues of the day. To say otherwise is probably knuckle dragger phobic and could get you into more trouble than if you were to knock a cyclist off their bike by going round a mini roundabout on the wrong side.....


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## fossyant (3 Nov 2022)

Got called a banker last night by a driver coming the opposite way. I was waiting to turn right, behind a car, but they were really hesitant, so I saw a gap and got over. As I'd turned right, a driver shouts out of his window. Why ?

Colleagues moaning about traffic and public transport this morning. I said 'I can lend you a bike, I've got a few spare'. "Get lost" was the answer !


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## Kingfisher101 (3 Nov 2022)

I've found drivers are getting more impatient and I get beeped at more often. A couple of days ago I turned right, nothing was behind me then its right again after about 15 Metres. So obviously I move to the right, a car then roars up behind me and starts beeping. Obviously I'm turning right and I'm in the middle of the road. I did put my hand out.. I'd just let the cyclist make their move etc.
Then hes giving me the finger etc.
Theres been quite a few accidents where I am with pedestrians getting run over by cars.
Someone I know hates driving where I live as he says the drivers are much more aggressive and will never let you out etc.


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## Wooger (3 Nov 2022)

united4ever said:


> The market trader in her van pointing out the empty bike lanes. This does happen a lot where people say that nobody is using them.



If there was a single competently designed, consistent and useful cycle path network anywhere in the country that'd be a thing. London is close.

In Birmingham the few major off-road segregated routes are both extremely patchy, never maintained/cleaned, frequently require crossing roads at slow beg-button crossings and generally double my journey time vs the road.
They also peter out to nothing (arguably worse than nothing) before you even reach the city centre, with as far as I can tell no legal route to get across it at all - certainly none that's logical.


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## Arjimlad (3 Nov 2022)

The Land Rover footage at the start & partway through is mine - I didn't know they would be using it but have no issues that they did. 

I don't know the outcome of that matter other than it was a "positive" report to Avon & Somerset Police who sent a warning letter, fixed penalty, conditional course offer or prosecution. Seeing what else has been prosecuted from my reports I would lay a fiver that this one was prosecuted too. 

I have to say I don't believe that survey at all. The proportion of drivers who knowingly execute a close pass is minimal, and most drivers allow space for cyclists on the road. Having said that I have two to report from this morning's ten mile commute, a close pass by a commercial vehicle driver and an impatient nutter overtaking me around a blind bend with a coffee in his right hand. But there must have been 50 other drivers who drove well. 

I'll watch the Panorama programme sometime. I have read various reviews of it already.


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## mjr (3 Nov 2022)

united4ever said:


> The market trader in her van pointing out the empty bike lanes. This does happen a lot where people say that nobody is using them.


Why doesn't she do at least some of her journeys by cargo e-bike, if the bike lanes are so quiet? That was what Italian market greengrocers were doing in cities with "ZTL"s (LTNs) this autumn. Seemed to work. Cambridge cargo ebikes pull such huge sheds along behind them that I reckon two would replace typical small market van loads. But then she would realise why usage is low so far: they probably aren't joined up, or cargo bikes don't fit, or the lanes require gymnastics, or...

That was an example of the biggest problem with the show: it emphasised the problems and didn't even question some pretty outrageous statements, especially from Rod Lidl, the discount supermarket Boris. They could have asked why complaining motorists didn't try switching... but I suspect that would have gone badly with trying to dress them like the MAMIL host rather than a more relaxed city/Dutch/ebiker.


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## a.twiddler (3 Nov 2022)

I saw the Panorama programme last night which used these clips and found it a bit, well, underwhelming. The presenter, a cyclist, started off by displaying a misunderstanding of the Highway Code changes relating to cyclist lane use -they're not new rules giving cyclists extra rights but a clarification of existing rules which have been in place for decades. 

It went downhill from there with a rather sensationalistic approach using frankly lazy journalism and isolated examples. It didn't attempt to understand the reasons behind the views expressed by various parties interviewed or give sufficient detail. For example a quote that a particular junction in Holborn had seen "nine cyclist fatalities since 2008, 7 of which involved trucks" doesn't go into detail but that's less than one per year which is tragic for the individuals concerned but considering the traffic levels is a vanishingly low level of risk. The whole message of the programme seemed to be that cycling is incredibly dangerous which in real terms it is not, but the perception of danger is what puts people off and the skewed perception of the presenter (who supposedly cycled from Yorkshire to London for the purposes of this half hour programme) doesn't help. I wonder how the selection of drivers chosen was carried out? It would suggest that there is a severe problem with driver training, and the sample suggests a lack of updating or even reading the Highway Code since they passed their test. A view of the cycle lane system in Leicester was shown which seems fabulous but does it actually take people where they want to go? It's not like that in other parts of the country.

Views from Londoners who just seem to hate each other let alone cyclists v motorists are probably less than representative of other parts of the country. I've already spent more brain power writing this than was probably spent on the entire Panorama programme, so I'll let others who can be a*sed respond.


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## Alex321 (3 Nov 2022)

Yes, I don't believe for one moment those "survey" numbers are representative of the actual numbers of drivers who feel that way.


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## Alex321 (3 Nov 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> For example a quote that a particular junction in Holborn had seen "nine cyclist fatalities since 2008, 7 of which involved trucks" doesn't go into detail but that's less than one per year which is tragic for the individuals concerned but considering the traffic levels is a vanishingly low level of risk.


It is an absolutely ludicrously high level of risk, which should be leading to a redesign of that junction.

How many individual junctions do you know of which have had 7 fatal accidents in 14 years?




a.twiddler said:


> The whole message of the programme seemed to be that cycling is incredibly dangerous which in real terms it is not, but the perception of danger is what puts people off and the skewed perception of the presenter (who supposedly cycled from Yorkshire to London for the purposes of this half hour programme) doesn't help. I wonder how the selection of drivers chosen was carried out? It would suggest that there is a severe problem with driver training, and the sample suggests a lack of updating or even reading the Highway Code since they passed their test. A view of the cycle lane system in Leicester was shown which seems fabulous but does it actually take people where they want to go? It's not like that in other parts of the country.
> 
> Views from Londoners who just seem to hate each other let alone cyclists v motorists are probably less than representative of other parts of the country. I've already spent more brain power writing this than was probably spent on the entire Panorama programme, so I'll let others who can be a*sed respond.



I agree that I do not feel the views expressed represent the views of significant numbers of motorists in most parts of the country.


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## a.twiddler (3 Nov 2022)

Just one fatality is one too many. I rather suspect that hard pressed councils in places like London have similar view of fatalities as the airline industry used to have, balancing a certain amount of attrition versus the financial cost of prevention. It shouldn't be like that, placing a financial value on human life, but it just is.


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## Arjimlad (3 Nov 2022)

Yes @a.twiddler , 

People who tried petitioning the council to put in a protected pavement or crossing for pedestrians over a narrow busy bridge near me have been told to the effect that because nobody's been killed yet, the scheme is not given enough priority. None of us are willing to lay down our lives for this particular cause, though.


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## Mike_P (3 Nov 2022)

Maybe we should bombard Panoramas contact addresses with requests for investigations on the state of cycle paths. My nearest one has signs pointing down the road not the path, negligible markings including on a blind bend on a shared pavement, virtually no signs beyond those direction ones and if you follow it fully you end up on a cycling prohibited footbridge.


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## mjr (3 Nov 2022)

Mike_P said:


> Maybe we should bombard Panoramas contact addresses with requests for investigations on the state of cycle paths. My nearest one has signs pointing down the road not the path, negligible markings including on a blind bend on a shared pavement, virtually no signs beyond those direction ones and if you follow it fully you end up on a cycling prohibited footbridge.


That would be considerably more use than yet another "cars v bikes" manufactured-conflict show. It would be nice for someone with a bit of clout to pick some of the most bonkers examples and, for each one, push at the bit of government responsible for it (often county councils, but sometimes National Highways and the DfT who really ought to know and do better) to find out how it ended up in that state and why it's taking so long to bring up to standard, maybe comparing with how quickly defective carriageways get changed... and I can think of some roundabouts that weren't defective but drivers proved themselves incompetent to drive on correctly, so the council changed them to make it easier. No enforcement, no attempt to remove incompetent drivers from the roads.

Or they could look at the shocking state of maintenance, with examples like 4 months of buck-passing before anyone covered a 1m x 1m x 1m deep hole in the middle of a cycleway and another month to repair it; or half the tarmac being broken up by weeds "does not meet our criteria for intervention" (directly contradicting published policy documents); and that's before considering the widespread roadwork cowboys who stick non-reflective fences in front of deep holes or work vehicles dumped on cycleways with no warning signs and no diversions on the approaches. For comparison, similar holes in the middle of the carriageway get fixed within 2 hours (they have appeared at Necton a few times over the years), roads get weedkilled and winter salting does a lot to reduce weeds too, so they rarely break up as totally before being repaired; and roadwork cowboys failing to follow the safety code of practice are moved off carriageways within minutes (or hours at worst).

If the government is going to achieve its stated aim of doubling cycling (which is already fairly pathetic, from about 1 in 50 commuters to just 1 in 25), then cycleways are going to need at least as good construction and maintenance as carriageways, or there has to be greater enforcement on carriageways to get the 1 in 4 knowingly-close-passing motorists to stop or be stopped. It could make excellent TV to get to the absurdities in government actions which are stopping those from happening.


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## united4ever (3 Nov 2022)

The driver speaking to cyclists saying "Just so you know, I've killed one of your lot and injured another and got away with both" was outrageous - could that footage not be used to revisit those incidents by the police?


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## Mo1959 (3 Nov 2022)

united4ever said:


> The driver speaking to cyclists saying "Just so you know, I've killed one of your lot and injured another and got away with both" was outrageous - could that footage not be used to revisit those incidents by the police?



Good grief. I’m glad I didn’t watch it!


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## mjr (3 Nov 2022)

united4ever said:


> The driver speaking to cyclists saying "Just so you know, I've killed one of your lot and injured another and got away with both" was outrageous - could that footage not be used to revisit those incidents by the police?


Almost certainly not because the incidents probably don't exist.

But a Public Service Broadcaster should maybe ask DVLA if someone that delusional and/or threatening should be holding a driving licence... maybe they can contact the gentleman's doctor?


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## Badger_Boom (3 Nov 2022)

united4ever said:


> The driver speaking to cyclists saying "Just so you know, I've killed one of your lot and injured another and got away with both" was outrageous - could that footage not be used to revisit those incidents by the police?



Perhaps, but then he's probably the type of Two-shoots Tony who tells everyone in the pub he used to be in the SAS when he actually got rejected by the local scout troop for having flat feet. I tend to take such statements of bravado with several pinches of salt.


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## mjr (3 Nov 2022)

Alex321 said:


> Yes, I don't believe for one moment those "survey" numbers are representative of the actual numbers of drivers who feel that way.


It was an open online poll, not what we usually see as a survey. Data at https://yonderconsulting.com/poll/cycling-on-public-highways/

According to 
View: https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1587775645723009024


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## mjr (3 Nov 2022)

Arjimlad said:


> People who tried petitioning the council to put in a protected pavement or crossing for pedestrians over a narrow busy bridge near me have been told to the effect that because nobody's been killed yet, the scheme is not given enough priority. None of us are willing to lay down our lives for this particular cause, though.


Can you argue that the discouragement of active travel means that some people have effectively been killed unnecessarily by the council's inaction?


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## Arjimlad (3 Nov 2022)

@mjr worth a try but it's not blood on the road, which appears to be what is needed


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## Arrowfoot (3 Nov 2022)

1 in 3 motorists think cyclists should be on the road. Yet the number of cyclists are increasing day by day and their age spectrum is also well covered. I would not worry. 

Its the same in many places around World such as Thailand, Philippines, Taiwan, Singapore, South Africa etc


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## Alex321 (3 Nov 2022)

Arrowfoot said:


> 1 in 3 motorists think cyclists should be on the road. Yet the number of cyclists are increasing day by day and their age spectrum is also well covered. I would not worry.
> 
> Its the same in many places around World such as Thailand, Philippines, Taiwan, Singapore, South Africa etc



As pointed out above, not really a proper survey at all, and zero credibility for the numbers.


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## Mike_P (3 Nov 2022)

https://road.cc/content/news/review-panorama-road-rage-cars-v-bikes-297037


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## tom73 (3 Nov 2022)

Elected clowns like this one don't help either 
https://road.cc/content/news/andy-burnham-growing-debate-over-compulsory-hi-viz-297099


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## boydj (3 Nov 2022)

a.twiddler said:


> ....... For example a quote that a particular junction in Holborn had seen "nine cyclist fatalities since 2008, 7 of which involved trucks" doesn't go into detail but that's less than one per year which is tragic for the individuals concerned but considering the traffic levels is a vanishingly low level of risk. ..................



Are you for real?

If every major junction in major cities like London had this level of risk, the number of cyclists killed would reach epidemic proportions.

That this is not the case highlights that this junction has particular dangers for cyclists which should have been addressed years ago.


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## wafter (4 Nov 2022)

Late to the party, no real desire to wade in and haven't read the rest of the thread for the sake of my blood pressure... however unsurprisingly the BBC are attempting to wring their money's worth out of this with some material posted to their website: 

"Drivers and cyclists near misses caught on camera"

Kind of says it all when the thumbnail / first "near miss" is of a cyclist hitting a car that's turned across him at such speed that the bike's flung many metres into the air.. maybe a "near miss" to the knobhead driver responsible in terms of severity of outcome; presumably less-so for the cyclist who will have come off substantially worse despite in no way being at fault


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## T4tomo (4 Nov 2022)

boydj said:


> Are you for real?
> 
> If every major junction in major cities like London had this level of risk, the number of cyclists killed would reach epidemic proportions.
> 
> That this is not the case highlights that this junction has particular dangers for cyclists which should have been addressed years ago.



agree, it didn't list the number of non fatal injuries, but I would assume considerable. and one every other year on one stretch of tarmac is a pretty appalling tally.

Its a inherently risky as traffic coming in opposite directions both get merged into a perpendicular one way road, and inevitably then want to swap lanes etc for their next turn left or right. So approaching from the west, if you are on the inside, you turn south and end up between the two lanes of traffic, with some of the traffic coming from the east wanting to come across your path. Add to that a lorry / bus or two with less good visibility and drivers and cyclists unfamiliar with the junction.....

I have cycled round it and survived, but its not a route I would choose.


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## matticus (4 Nov 2022)

wafter said:


> "Drivers and cyclists near misses caught on camera"
> 
> Kind of says it all when the thumbnail / first "near miss" is of a cyclist hitting a car that's turned across him at such speed that the bike's flung many metres into the air.. maybe a "near miss" to the knobhead driver responsible in terms of severity of outcome; presumably less-so for the cyclist who will have come off substantially worse despite in no way being at fault



That is fuc king ridiculous; there are at least two serious impacts early on in that short film!

"near misses"?!?


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## wafter (4 Nov 2022)

matticus said:


> That is fuc king ridiculous; there are at least two serious impacts early on in that short film!
> 
> "near misses"?!?



Indeed. Maybe later the litre of vodka sat on my cabinet will send them an email and question their definition of "near miss"..


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## Badger_Boom (4 Nov 2022)

wafter said:


> Indeed. Maybe later the litre of vodka sat on my cabinet will send them an email and question their definition of "near miss"..



I think they meant “not actually killed”.


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## mjr (4 Nov 2022)

T4tomo said:


> I have cycled round it and survived, but its not a route I would choose.


Quietway 1 actually crosses the west end of the junction, which makes it look rather tempting on a map for unsuspecting cyclists wanting to turn east there and head towards the City.


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## Andy in Germany (5 Nov 2022)

Glow worm said:


> At a guess, perhaps it’s jealousy. They’ve bought into this mythical freedom dream, egged on by ridiculous car ads, of empty, open roads and nothing in the way, spending absurd amounts of cash on vehicles they can’t afford, only to get stuck in gridlock. Then they spot us, whistling past them, wind in our hair, barely a care in the world, and they feel (quite rightly) they’ve been had. Shame.



I think that may be a part of it, along with tribalism: in car centric cultures cyclists are generally seen as the "other". I've noticed the rants are much less common around Freiburg because cycling is more common so people at the very least actually know someone who cycles even if they don't themselves.


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