# How can I ever let my son loose on the roads alone?



## Sara_H (9 Mar 2014)

Coming home from sons football match today, he rode straight out of a junction without looking. There were cars coming, but thankfully due to the angle of the junction they just passed him and no harm was done. He said he hadn't seen the road markings, didn't realise he had to stop. I asked him had he not heard the cars - he said there weren't any!

I'm now having palpitations. He's done L2 bikeability, but having done it myself last year I don't think it goes anywhere near preparing them for riding on the roads.

I feel that (at the minute) the only option is riding illegally, but safely or legally but unsafely. Don't really know what the answer is.


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## Cycling Dan (9 Mar 2014)

Sounds like SMIDY driver in the making . 
Why not have him do LvL3 then do a few test rides with him. Point out his errors and then mention how to do it next time. 
It seems like his riding is not the issue but rather his observation. While there are no hazard perception video tests for cyclists I think having him try the Motorbike one will be near enough the same. Least that way he can see how he scores and it does not seem like just a nagy mum on his case.


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## Sara_H (9 Mar 2014)

Cycling Dan said:


> Sounds like SMIDY driver in the making .
> Why not have him do LvL3 then do a few test rides with him. Point out his errors and then mention how to do it next time.
> It seems like his riding is not the issue but rather his observation. While there are no hazard perception video tests for cyclists I think having him try the Motorbike one will be near enough the same. Least that way he can see how he scores and it does not seem like just a nagy mum on his case.


TBH he's very good when I tell him what to do on the bike, dare I say he actually respects his Mum's experience!

He hasn't ridden much over winter and he was on his new road bike, so I guess he was having a little day dream about being up front with Brad and Chris. He's done this before at a junction though, and it did get me thinking how despite having to abide by the rules of the road, he's not had any real preperation for riding on them. HTF should he know to stop at a junction? Bikeabilty doesn't teach you that!


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## midliferider (9 Mar 2014)

How old is he?


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## buggi (9 Mar 2014)

level 2 is minor roads and junctions. What kind of junction was it and how old is he?


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## Sara_H (9 Mar 2014)

He's 11. It was a quiet road and we were pulling out into a bigger road. He just didn't see the markings (which are poor to be fair).

As I said, he's done it before. He just doesn't seem to recognise how junctions work, and when you think about it, they are fairly complicated and sometimes difficult to see when all the roads are snided by parked cars.

I really want to get him riding confidently on the roads, but I find it so stressful having to call out instructions to him all the time. All complicated by the fact that I find it quite difficult to keep up with him. 

Bit depressed by it all at the minute.


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## Sara_H (9 Mar 2014)

It was here.https://www.google.co.uk/maps/searc...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sUuvdmxSBjrX-N6qw3YkerA!2e0


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## GuardTwin (9 Mar 2014)

I finished year 6 when I did my cycling course which was free (still should be i think) get in contact with your council and ask about cycling on the road courses for children, maybe you can get the school to agree with using their grounds to practice and do mini exams of road markings and how roads work etc. They put you on quite roads and always have instructors out looking for cars flagging them to slow down and letting the kids know they are coming so we get the feel of cars being there without too much pressure.

That is a taster on how mine was, as I am now almost 24 I do not know if it has changed much but it is a good idea for children because it helped me over time to be more aware of my surroundings and having that skill and ability has saved my life during my high school cycling life and even now. (I feel it has made me a slightly better driver when looking for cars, bikes and cyclists I know what cyclists need when passing and where they might be.)


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## Julia9054 (9 Mar 2014)

I sit my son (well, the one who cycles!) in the front of the car when I drive anywhere and talk through junctions and roundabouts etc as we drive. His road sense worries me too!


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## buggi (9 Mar 2014)

to be fair... That is a difficult junction for a child who's only done L2

Do you find him hard to control on the road? You say you can't keep up but you should not have to. don't allow him to ride off. If he continues to do so, take his bike off him until he learns to control his speed. This sounds harsh but you can't be expected to keep him safe if he's not in ear shot. You have learned today his life depends on it, so don't be afraid to be firm on this. If he can't obey this instruction, do not continue to take him out until he can demonstrate he is willing to slow to your speed.

when you have his speed under control, choose simple junctions first and ask him to tell you what he's doing and thinking on approach rather than you shouting instructions (also this means he will have to have you in ear shot of him so he will stay near). This will help you ascertain if he understands the junction. The more he demonstrates understanding, the more you will trust him to move on to bigger junctions. Until he demonstrates understanding on simple junctions, don't take him to more complicated ones.


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## Crackle (9 Mar 2014)

A few years will make a tremendous difference, even a year, being able to make sense of roads seems to kick in around 11.


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## Sara_H (9 Mar 2014)

buggi said:


> to be fair... That is a difficult junction for a child who's only done L2
> 
> Do you find him hard to control on the road? You say you can't keep up but you should not have to. don't allow him to ride off. If he continues to do so, take his bike off him until he learns to control his speed. This sounds harsh but you can't be expected to keep him safe if he's not in ear shot. You have learned today his life depends on it, so don't be afraid to be firm on this. If he can't obey this instruction, do not continue to take him out until he can demonstrate he is willing to slow to your speed.
> 
> when you have his speed under control, choose simple junctions first and ask him to tell you what he's doing and thinking on approach rather than you shouting instructions (also this means he will have to have you in ear shot of him so he will stay near). This will help you ascertain if he understands the junction. The more he demonstrates understanding, the more you will trust him to move on to bigger junctions. Until he demonstrates understanding on simple junctions, don't take him to more complicated ones.


He's quite good, he will slow down so that I can keep up with him, but I do have to keep reminding him. 

I so wish it didn't have to be this difficult. I wish I'd gone to live in The Netherlands when I was pregnant!


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## buggi (9 Mar 2014)

i think the main problem is that (a) you are expecting him to know more than he does just because he's done level 2 and (b) you are telling him what to do, rather than letting him think for himself. you do need to get him, on approach to junctions, to tell you what he's doing and why he's doing it. This will make him think about what he's doing while demonstrating his understanding (or lack of). and like i said, if he is the one that has to talk to you, he will have to slow down anyway so you can hear. when riding with him, best if you flank him on the right slightly, rather than stay right behind. This will help him know he's not leaving you behind, whilst also protecting him, and will make it easier for him to talk to you. 

don't forget to tell him when he's done great and, if he messes up, stop him in a safe place and ask him how he thought he did and if he could have done anything better, rather than say "you did this wrong" as again, this gets him thinking about his actions and helps him work it out for himself. If he can't work it out for himself say, "Well, if i was in your position, I would have done.[insert what you would have done]". 

that junction is difficult as it's not a straight forward in and out. i'm not really surprised he didn't understand it, so don't feel too down. Take him back there and get him to watch how the cars go in and out. When you come across new junctions, don't be afraid to shout stop if you need to. (Agree with him beforehand that if you shout STOP he must do so immediately).


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## Sara_H (9 Mar 2014)

buggi said:


> i think the main problem is that (a) you are expecting him to know more than he does just because he's done level 2 and (b) you are telling him what to do, rather than letting him think for himself. you do need to get him, on approach to junctions, to tell you what he's doing and why he's doing it. This will make him think about what he's doing while demonstrating his understanding (or lack of). and like i said, if he is the one that has to talk to you, he will have to slow down anyway so you can hear. when riding with him, best if you flank him on the right slightly, rather than stay right behind. This will help him know he's not leaving you behind, whilst also protecting him, and will make it easier for him to talk to you.
> 
> don't forget to tell him when he's done great and, if he messes up, stop him in a safe place and ask him how he thought he did and if he could have done anything better, rather than say "you did this wrong" as again, this gets him thinking about his actions and helps him work it out for himself. If he can't work it out for himself say, "Well, if i was in your position, I would have done.[insert what you would have done]".
> 
> that junction is difficult as it's not a straight forward in and out. i'm not really surprised he didn't understand it, so don't feel too down. Take him back there and get him to watch how the cars go in and out. When you come across new junctions, don't be afraid to shout stop if you need to. (Agree with him beforehand that if you shout STOP he must do so immediately).


Yes some good tips there. I wasn't really expecting the bikeability to furnish him with these skills, just expressing a frustration really about it all. He's now at an age where he is legally not expected to ride on pavements, but I don't feels roads are safe for him. I should be able to let him go out and about by himself a bit, but its not possible really.


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## midliferider (9 Mar 2014)

Sara, in my view, he is bit too young to ride alone on the road.
Others may disagree but I didn't let my 11 year old to ride on the road alone.


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## buggi (9 Mar 2014)

Sara_H said:


> Yes some good tips there. I wasn't really expecting the bikeability to furnish him with these skills, just expressing a frustration really about it all. He's now at an age where he is legally not expected to ride on pavements, but I don't feels roads are safe for him. I should be able to let him go out and about by himself a bit, but its not possible really.





midliferider said:


> Sara, in my view, he is bit too young to ride alone on the road.
> Others may disagree but I didn't let my 11 year old to ride on the road alone.


Agree, it is plainly obvious you feel he's not ready and he's your son and you know him best. Therefore, don't feel like you need to let him ride on his own. you're putting both him and you under pressure. ease off, cycling should be enjoyable. if he feels he's "doing it wrong" all the time, it will become a chore. let him learn to walk before he can run, so to speak.

you have to think of bikeability like the driving test. when you learn to drive, they teach you how to pass a test. the competence comes with experience. Bikeability is the same. It gives them the basics, they learn from experience. You wouldn't take a child straight out of bikeability level 2 and put them in a level 3 lesson. They have to have experience and that gap can be a few years!


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## I like Skol (9 Mar 2014)

Sara, stick with it. My son is just turned 11 and has been riding on the roads on his own for around 6 months now. We did a lot of riding together in the years beforehand and he also spent a lot of time in the car, with me explaining potential hazards, road positioning and junction priorities etc.

He's really good now and even when he is a passenger in the car he still warns me to 'watch out for this car dad, they're about to pull out' 

If you drive Sara it can be a good way to show your son how the roads work in a safe environment where you can discuss what is happening around you as it unfolds.

Perhaps the biggest lesson for him to learn is that if he is uncertain, or the markings aren't clear, then wait until he knows it is safe to proceed. I'm lucky, my son is quite cautious on the road and will often wait even when I would encourage him to go as there is plenty of time before the next vehicle will arrive.


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## summerdays (10 Mar 2014)

It's worth baring in mind that they develop road sense at different ages, there was no way I was letting my middle child walk places on their own at 11 (let alone cycle), unless it involved virtually no road crossings. Eventually they got it but probably several years later than my other children.


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## Puddles (10 Mar 2014)

@Sara_H Reading this is giving me palpatations, we are on The Big pedal at school a the moment so I have had loads of parents asking me things, we have had the when do you detach them from you question, we have a shared cycle path that runs along the main road through the village, but they have to get to that path, the the small people it detached have to negotiate people on foot on that path and other bikes, scooters etc. then from the parents of older children should I let them go on their own.

As I am not an instructor there has been a lot of pointing them in the direction of instructors in our area.

Anyhoo I found with Squidge who is a wee bit younger than yours (8) but I am still trying to teach him roads and stuff, I use paper, with dotted lines and get him to get out his toys cars and we "pretend" it is a bike, this has got him so far in understanding, we also use rolls of wall paper outside in the nice weather with him "being" the bike.


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## Sara_H (10 Mar 2014)

summerdays said:


> It's worth baring in mind that they develop road sense at different ages, there was no way I was letting my middle child walk places on their own at 11 (let alone cycle), unless it involved virtually no road crossings. Eventually they got it but probably several years later than my other children.


He's been walking about independantly for a while, he goes to his Dad's house alone, which is about a mile away. Crossing roads doesn't worry me as much as riding on them.


Puddles said:


> @Sara_H Reading this is giving me palpatations, we are on The Big pedal at school a the moment so I have had loads of parents asking me things, we have had the when do you detach them from you question, we have a shared cycle path that runs along the main road through the village, but they have to get to that path, the the small people it detached have to negotiate people on foot on that path and other bikes, scooters etc. then from the parents of older children should I let them go on their own.
> 
> As I am not an instructor there has been a lot of pointing them in the direction of instructors in our area.
> 
> Anyhoo I found with Squidge who is a wee bit younger than yours (8) but I am still trying to teach him roads and stuff, I use paper, with dotted lines and get him to get out his toys cars and we "pretend" it is a bike, this has got him so far in understanding, we also use rolls of wall paper outside in the nice weather with him "being" the bike.


Hehe! Sorry, didn't mean to give anyone else palpitations! In a lot of ways he's doing well, he knows about the door zone, he does good shoulder checks and signalling, he's very cautious when passing junctions and when we're on shared paths he's very courteous. It's just this business with the junctions that is upsetting me as he's done it twice now.


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## coffeejo (10 Mar 2014)

As a non-parent, Buggi's posts make a lot of sense to me. Talking about what you're going to do before you do it is an excellent way of learning how to do something - it forces you to slow down and think about it and allows for a change of plans if need be. You could also introduce a rule where he has to pull up and wait for you before junctions, which will encourage him to be more observant of his surroundings, as well as allowing you the time to catch up and he can ponder each junction as he waits - and can then tell you how he would expect to proceed.

Good luck


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## MontyVeda (10 Mar 2014)

...


Sara_H said:


> He's been walking about independantly for a while, he goes to his Dad's house alone, which is about a mile away. Crossing roads doesn't worry me as much as riding on them.
> 
> Hehe! Sorry, didn't mean to give anyone else palpitations! In a lot of ways he's doing well, he knows about the door zone, he does good shoulder checks and signalling, he's very cautious when passing junctions and when we're on shared paths he's very courteous. It's just this business with the junctions that is upsetting me as he's done it twice now.


I reckon he's plenty old enough to be out on his own and taking responsibility for himself. The junction you link to is clearly marked, he just needs to be more observant of the road markings, stop and give way.


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## Sara_H (10 Mar 2014)

MontyVeda said:


> ...
> 
> I reckon he's plenty old enough to be out on his own and taking responsibility for himself. The junction you link to is clearly marked, he just needs to be more observant of the road markings, stop and give way.


It is a lot more faded, the pictures there are about five years old and the markings are driven over frequently by buses sweeping into the bus stop.

I know I have to just persevere with the training. I


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## summerdays (10 Mar 2014)

The advice about getting him to talk to you as you cycle along is probably good as then you know what he is seeing (or not), and it makes him focus on the road. I used to make my youngest do that.


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## midliferider (10 Mar 2014)

Sara_H said:


> He's quite good, he will slow down so that I can keep up with him, but I do have to keep reminding him.
> 
> I so wish it didn't have to be this difficult. *I wish I'd gone to live in The Netherlands* when I was pregnant!



I think you must take this as a very good reason to do a cycle tour in Netherlands with him.
I did it with my son when he was 13. It was a very good way for him to learn to organise a tour, plan routes, book hotels etc. He really enjoyed that. The miles that you do over 5 days gives you quite good confidence in cycling. If you organise it yourself, it is not expensive than what an average parents would spend for one week all inclusive holiday in a beach resort.


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## Sara_H (10 Mar 2014)

summerdays said:


> The advice about getting him to talk to you as you cycle along is probably good as then you know what he is seeing (or not), and it makes him focus on the road. I used to make my youngest do that.


Funnily enough, he did this unprompted on the way home today. I think he got the impression that he spooked me yesterday, so when we were turning right into our road he gave me a running commentry


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## KneesUp (25 Apr 2014)

How are things now? I know this thread is a bit old, but I thought I'd say hello as you appear to live very near to me 

At 11 I'd passed the Cycling Proficiency Test as it was called then, but was still on estate roads rather than main roads. Sheffield is difficult I think because the road layouts are poor, the road surfaces are poor, the tram tracks are a menace, and getting from A to B always involves going uphill regardless of where A and B are. It sounds to me like he's doing well enough - I don't think I'd do much other than slow a little there unless there was traffic immediately there - and to be scrupulously fair to your son, double dashed lines mean 'Give Way' not 'Stop and Give Way' 

That said, I know I'll be exactly the same when my daughter starts to ride on the road.


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## ufkacbln (26 Apr 2014)

Not always the child's "fault", but a limitation of their abilities.

There is some interesting research about children's perceptions of traffic that a lot



> The study, which is in press for the international journal Psychological Science, outlines how a speed illusion can mean that all pedestrians, and/or drivers at junctions, can under-estimate the speed of faster vehicles and may, in some cases, fail to see them at all. Researchers measured the perceptual acuity of over 100 children in primary schools and calculated the approach speed that they could reliably detect. Adult pedestrians can make accurate judgments for vehicles travelling up to 50 mph, but primary school age children become unreliable once the approach speed goes above 20 mph.
> 
> Professor John Wann who led the research suggests “This is not a matter of children not paying attention, but a problem related to low-level visual detection mechanisms, so even when children are paying very close attention they may fail to detect a fast approaching vehicle.”



Full paper with lots of complex maths)


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## Globalti (26 Apr 2014)

My son has just turned 15 and still doesn't seem to have much road sense. We've had a bad crash (off the road, no car involved but knocked unconscious) and the traffic fright that you had, has also happened to us in the last 3 or 4 years. He recently asked if he could ride the 4 miles to school for something extra-curricular and despite it being a quietish B road ride, there are several junctions and we are not confident that he's ready. I have bought him the Highway Code and told him he's got to start studying it in readiness for driving lessons, but with special attention to the rules for cyclists and I'm going to start drilling him now as we drive around. I wonder if a cycling proficiency test would help to focus his mind?


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## theclaud (26 Apr 2014)

Cunobelin said:


> Not always the child's "fault", but a limitation of their abilities.
> 
> There is some interesting research about children's perceptions of traffic that a lot
> 
> ...



Interesting. And a very good argument for a 20mph default urban limit.


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## ufkacbln (26 Apr 2014)

theclaud said:


> Interesting. And a very good argument for a 20mph default urban limit.



As with all "evidence" - read with caution.

I was unsure whether this one was aimed to support the 20ph limit, or the 20 mph limit was a result of the research.

Having the same figure is my issue


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## Julia9054 (26 Apr 2014)

A few years ago, my eldest was cycling to a friend's house and misjudged a junction. A car very nearly ran him over. The driver was so shocked, he got out and yelled at him. To make matters worse, it turned out to be a teacher from his school. He was so shaken up he, unfortunately, has not been back on a bike since.


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## Globalti (27 Apr 2014)

Today's news: Gti Junior rides too fast, too close and piles into the back of a car that stops sharply. No harm done. Blames it on the brakes! They are poor but I saw the back wheel lift well before the contact.


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## Sara_H (1 May 2014)

Globalti said:


> Today's news: Gti Junior rides too fast, too close and piles into the back of a car that stops sharply. No harm done. Blames it on the brakes! They are poor but I saw the back wheel lift well before the contact.


My son crashed into the back of me today ad came off. To be fair, it was the first time we'd gone out with me towing his speedway bike on the trailer (I was a long vehicle!). I don't think he'll be getting that close again in the near future!


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## william_just (11 May 2014)

Emphasise the Give Way lines (a visual cue) and that he MUST slow down as he approaches them to make sure that there is no traffic on the major road, which gets to go first. Explain that traffic on major roads has priority over traffic on minor roads. A junction is where two or more roads meet, and the minor road is always the one that is coming to an end, while the major road continues, so get him recognise this. (A T-junction is an obvious example.) While "buggi" has given you some good advice I do not recommend the following: "...get him [your son], on approach to junctions, to tell you what he's doing and why he's doing it." On the contrary, your son should be focusing on what he is doing (i.e. his cycling). By all means, get him to explain it afterwards, but not while he is doing it. Why not practice with him at a quiet junction?


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## mr_cellophane (3 Jun 2014)

Works for training police drivers.


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