# Close Contact Self Isolation



## plastic_cyclist (4 Oct 2020)

So, I have been placed into self isolation due to having a 5 min conversation with a guy through his (open) car window, who has now tested positive.
Now I'm banished to my bedroom away from rest of the household....(holiday has also been ki-boshed this week)

Question is if I'm isolated, can I still ride alone?
(I have no symptoms and feel 100%) but they say it could be incubating for up to 2 weeks.


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## vickster (4 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> So, I have been placed into self isolation due to having a 5 min conversation with a guy through his (open) car window, who has now tested positive.
> Now I'm banished to my bedroom away from rest of the household....(holiday has also been ki-boshed this week)
> 
> Question is if I'm isolated, can I still ride alone?
> (I have no symptoms and feel 100%) but they say it could be incubating for up to 2 weeks.


I believe you’re not meant to leave the house at all, so no

https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesse...ouseholds-with-possible-coronavirus-infection
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...in-contact-with-a-person-who-has-coronavirus/


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## midlife (4 Oct 2020)

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/

Website says to stay at home and don't leave the house....


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## steveindenmark (4 Oct 2020)

If you ride alone and have an accident and come into contact with the public or emergency services. You will look as stupid and inconsiderate as a Scottish MP. 

Stay at home.


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## DCLane (4 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> So, I have been placed into self isolation due to having a 5 min conversation with a guy through his (open) car window, who has now tested positive.
> Now I'm banished to my bedroom away from rest of the household....(holiday has also been ki-boshed this week)
> 
> Question is if I'm isolated, can I still ride alone?
> (I have no symptoms and feel 100%) but they say it could be incubating for up to 2 weeks.



Enjoy the quiet time to yourself. Turbo time? 

Basically you're in the house and if you leave may be fined.


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## midlife (4 Oct 2020)

Just out of curiosity who told you to self isolate?


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## Paulus (4 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Not even for food shopping?


I believe that is a no as well.


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## Blue Hills (4 Oct 2020)

Paulus said:


> I believe that is a no as well.


Ta
Deleted my post (crossed with yours) after a bit more reading.


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## lane (4 Oct 2020)

Think it's potentially a fine now if you leave the house. Who told you to self isolate though - I thought that it had to be 15 mins contact?


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## Ming the Merciless (4 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> Think it's potentially a fine now if you leave the house. Who told you to self isolate though - I thought that it had to be 15 mins contact?



Depends on the distance , if you are less than 2 metres apart it takes a lot less than 15 mins to get infected.


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## Drago (4 Oct 2020)

Im surprised the OP felt it necessary to even ask - if your isolating, you're isolating.


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## Darius_Jedburgh (4 Oct 2020)

How does our Police State expect you to eat?
Or do they take the view that starvation doesn't count towards the protecting the National Virus Service death total so you won't officially be dead?


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## Flick of the Elbow (4 Oct 2020)

How does this witch calling work ? If someone who tests positive names you as a witch, do you have the right to challenge the isolation verdict ? eg on the grounds that you were 2m distant in the open air and for considerably less than 15mins ? Or even that you never had any contact at all and you are being named in error or perhaps maliciously ?


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## midlife (4 Oct 2020)

Our employer is very clear, if you are contacted by test and trace and told to isolate then you isolate. Negative test or not. 

This is from the gov. Website....

If you are isolating because you have been contacted by NHS Test and Trace or because you are required to under public health measures at the border, you must continue to isolate for 14 days even if you receive a negative test.


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## tom73 (4 Oct 2020)

That’s not quite right negative test is not a passport out of it.


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## lane (4 Oct 2020)

Only get s test if you have symptoms is the rule no I think


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## Juliansou (4 Oct 2020)

Yes - I missed the bit about being instructed by test & trace.


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## plastic_cyclist (4 Oct 2020)

Yes good point re: accident whilst isolating.

I was contacted by NHS by text then phone call. I suppose the guy had to name me as he was thinking about it’s knock on effect rather than my holiday!

Even if you test negative you still need to Isolate they said.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Oct 2020)

This is what happens if you're silly enough to go round giving out your personal details or downloading the government app.


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## plastic_cyclist (4 Oct 2020)

DCLane said:


> Enjoy the quiet time to yourself. Turbo time?
> 
> Basically you're in the house and if you leave may be fined.


I ain’t got a turbo !!


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## lane (4 Oct 2020)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ng/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html#contact

Definition of close contacts - within 2 metres for 15 minutes. I don't think you meet criteria for being asked to isolate - I could of course be wrong but that is my reading of the link


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## vickster (4 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ng/contact-tracing-plan/appendix.html#contact
> 
> Definition of close contacts - within 2 metres for 15 minutes. I don't think you meet criteria for being asked to isolate - I could of course be wrong but that is my reading of the link


That’s a US link though. UK / NHS ones posted above


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## screenman (4 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> This is what happens if you're silly enough to go round giving out your personal details or downloading the government app.



Some of us care about others, we know by now you do not.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> Some of us care about others, we know by now you do not.



I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear. If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.


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## lane (4 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear. If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.



Sadly you are far from alone in taking that view


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## lane (4 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> That’s a US link though. UK / NHS ones posted above



Thanks for the correction - any time under 1 metre


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## screenman (4 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear. If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.




You do realize you will be spreading it before you know you have it.


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. *If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear.* If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.


The symptoms or the other people?

You are qualified to say if you are positive, symptom wise. Not just going off something you read on t'internet.


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## SkipdiverJohn (4 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> Sadly you are far from alone in taking that view



I'm just honest about it. I don't virtue signal about how we must all beat the virus publicly then do the opposite in private. 



screenman said:


> You do realize you will be spreading it before you know you have it.



It's possible yes. but then *you* could also be spreading it without symptoms right now even if you have not been traced as a contact. Any of us potentially could have the virus, unless already previously infected. What do you expect, everybody in the country to isolate themselves just in case? There has to be a balance between getting on with daily life and not knowingly spreading the virus. For me, the balance is if I have symptoms I'll keep away from others as much as possible, if I don't I won't.



classic33 said:


> The symptoms or the other people?
> 
> You are qualified to say if you are positive, symptom wise. Not just going off something you read on t'internet.



Symptoms until they clear up.


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## classic33 (4 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I'm just honest about it. I don't virtue signal about how we must all beat the virus publicly then do the opposite in private.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you're qualified to say that you're clear, and can no longer be infected(Immune)?


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## tom73 (4 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear. If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.



Take it the same applies if your contacted by a clinical contact tracer?
You do know under current Covid law if public health consider you a danger to health they can forcibly detain you for 14 days and request you take a test. If after 14 days they still believe your danger or refuse a test they can detain you for another 14 days.

As for a game it not a game it’s public health which is everyone’s concern or should be.


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## lane (4 Oct 2020)

Government failed to enter 16,000 tests in the system last week so they were not contacted by test and trace FFS


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## SkipdiverJohn (5 Oct 2020)

tom73 said:


> Take it the same applies if your contacted by a clinical contact tracer?
> You do know under current Covid law if public health consider you a danger to health they can forcibly detain you for 14 days and request you take a test. If after 14 days they still believe your danger or refuse a test they can detain you for another 14 days.
> 
> As for a game it not a game it’s public health which is everyone’s concern or should be.



Isolation compliance is reckoned to be only around 20% of people doing it fully by the book. The other 80% are either not isolating at all, or are only partially isolating.
Just face facts; regardless of how you _believe_ people ought to behave, and how the government is bossing people around and telling them to behave, the majority aren't willing to accept that level of disruption and restriction to their lives. You can quote rules and regulations as much as you like but millions like me are not going to take orders from hypocrite politicians in suits. After all, if it's OK for an SNP MP, to travel on a train *with virus symptoms*, and then travel on another train* after actually testing positive*, then I don't see why a different set of rules should apply to the rest of us. And before someone mentions Cummings, he might have bent the rules a bit but at least he travelled in his own car away from others, *not on a train with hundreds of other passengers. *


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## screenman (5 Oct 2020)

So one or two stupid politicians are the reason you want to ignore the safety of others, just be honest in that you do not give a fig about other people, surely there are people around you that you care about way more than yourself. It is a numbers game.


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## SkipdiverJohn (5 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> So one or two stupid politicians are the reason you want to ignore the safety of others, just be honest in that you do not give a fig about other people, surely there are people around you that you care about way more than yourself. It is a numbers game.



As far as I'm concerned if I stay well away from people I know personally who are at high risk, and avoid as much contact as possible with everyone if I actually have the virus symptoms, then I'm doing my bit. I haven't travelled several hundred miles shut in a confined space along with hundreds of other people knowingly spreading the virus whilst at the same time virtue-signalling and lecturing everyone else about their own behaviour, so I won't be taking my orders from these hypocrites.


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## screenman (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> As far as I'm concerned if I stay well away from people I know personally who are at high risk, and avoid as much contact as possible with everyone if I actually have the virus symptoms, then I'm doing my bit. I haven't travelled several hundred miles shut in a confined space along with hundreds of other people knowingly spreading the virus whilst at the same time virtue-signalling and lecturing everyone else about their own behaviour, so I won't be taking my orders from these hypocrites.



How will you know if you are spreading or not though? In all honesty you are no better than that politician if you are not prepared to mask up and play by the rules in my opinion.


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## Bazzer (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> As far as I'm concerned if I stay well away from people I know personally who are at high risk, and avoid as much contact as possible with everyone if I actually have the virus symptoms, then I'm doing my bit. I haven't travelled several hundred miles shut in a confined space along with hundreds of other people knowingly spreading the virus whilst at the same time virtue-signalling and lecturing everyone else about their own behaviour, so I won't be taking my orders from these hypocrites.


So really you don't give a stuff about anyone other than yourself and people you know.
Hypocrite politicians and their advisors shouldn't be your benchmark, but those who have sacrificed themselves in many ways in the last few months, for the benefit of the greater good and for people they don't know.


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## tom73 (5 Oct 2020)

Think he’d find even politicians won’t let him in. 
2 facts for you John you want to go back to “normal“ people like you are making that even harder and helping to make this last even longer.
2 People like you have and are still are killing people not to mention the many 1000‘s left with life changing health effects from Covid.


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## roubaixtuesday (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> if it's OK for an SNP MP, to travel on a train *with virus symptoms*,



Literally nobody has said this was ok.

Indeed, the only person saying selfish behaviour to spread the virus is OK is...

...you.


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## SkipdiverJohn (5 Oct 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> Literally nobody has said this was ok.



The MP obviously thought it was OK otherwise they wouldn't have done it - not just the once either, but twice. There's a few other MP's that have ignored the rules too, like the Labour one who went to the funeral with 50 others *during* the lockdown The level of hypocricy and arrogance here is astounding, and I bet if she hadn't been rumbled neither she or Kim Jong Sturgeon would have said a word about it. The latter knew about this incident before she is letting on too.


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## roubaixtuesday (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The level of hypocricy and arrogance here is astounding,



Indeed, it comes through loudly in all your posts.


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## biggs682 (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> I ain’t got a turbo !!



Get one if you want to ride


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## fossyant (5 Oct 2020)

biggs682 said:


> Get one if you want to ride



Re Turbo trainer:-

PS It's also a good way to see how any illness has affected you - at least you don't have to fall off at speed. When I wasn't well in December I wasn't well enough to ride, but I did get on the turbo - mistake. Power right down, heart rate not getting up. At least I hadn't left the garage.

There are quite a few on another 'cycling forum' that have been hit by long covid, and they can tell all their outputs are down - safe way to do it on a turbo. Some felt ill for days after trying a little exercise.


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## Blue Hills (5 Oct 2020)

to clarify skipdiver, are you just saying you don't want to use the app/have it continuously switched on/monitoring your movements/who you end up close to, or are you saying that you are going into places such as pubs where you have to give your details (either on paper or online) and NOT giving them your details or true details?

edit - last three words added pending an answer.


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## classic33 (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> As far as I'm concerned if I stay well away from people I know personally who are at high risk, and avoid as much contact as possible with everyone if I actually have the virus symptoms, then I'm doing my bit. I haven't travelled several hundred miles shut in a confined space along with hundreds of other people knowingly spreading the virus whilst at the same time virtue-signalling and lecturing everyone else about their own behaviour, so I won't be taking my orders from these hypocrites.


You've gone lower than either of them already though. They at least used their real names on the system in place.


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## postman (5 Oct 2020)

I have a hearing aid repair tomorrow and I will also see if he will test volume for me. So I can stay away from people I have booked a 07-30 appointment.Trying my best to stay away from people.


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## Moon bunny (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> As far as I'm.... bla de bla de bla bla, same old me me me



Two wrongs do not make one right.


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## cougie uk (5 Oct 2020)

70% of people who have the virus don't have symptoms. You will probably kill people. Cheers for that.


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## SkipdiverJohn (5 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> to clarify skipdiver, are you just saying you don't want to use the app/have it continuously switched on/monitoring your movements/who you end up close to, or are you saying that you are going into places such as pubs where you have to give your details (either on paper or online) and NOT giving them your details or true details?
> 
> edit - last three words added pending an answer.



I haven't got the tracing app and have no intention of downloading it, despite work trying to promote it. As regards giving details at venues, I don't volunteer any information. If I go somewhere and they don't bother to ask, then I tell them nothing. I only give any details if actively asked for them. I haven't told anyone I'm Donald Trump or Mickey Mouse either.


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## SkipdiverJohn (5 Oct 2020)

cougie uk said:


> 70% of people who have the virus don't have symptoms. .



It's just as likely that it could be *you* infecting other people with the virus then, not me. Those of us who object to the various knee-jerk coronavirus policies don't have a monopoly on being virus carriers. All the pro-lockdown nanny state do-gooders who enjoy lecturing everyone else are just as much of an infection conduit.


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## gavgav (5 Oct 2020)

midlife said:


> https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coron...reatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/
> 
> Website says to stay at home and don't leave the house....


The only answer that the OP needs.


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## classic33 (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It's just as likely that it could be *you* infecting other people with the virus then, not me. Those of us who object to the various knee-jerk coronavirus policies don't have a monopoly on being virus carriers. All the pro-lockdown nanny state do-gooders who enjoy lecturing everyone else are just as much of an infection conduit.


But we're minimizing close contact, whilst complying with current law on contact details being required to be given.


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## plastic_cyclist (5 Oct 2020)

Well, I've not left this one bedroom since Friday, not even seen my kids in the other room since then! And i'm still 100% ! I have to go until Thursday.

Like most say on here, the guy I had the very minimal contact with (and it's the first proper person I've known to get it), hasn't a damn clue where he got it from as he'd been staying well out the way of everyone, he can only think it's from playing golf. It just shows you the 2m rule is there for a reason and most people don't adhere to it, they stand talking to each other as they would normally, no masks, they think "I won't get this, it won't happen to me"......I've been dealt a stark reminder, so I hope its just an arrow across my brow and I don't start to develop symptoms.

Stay 2m apart people and don't be afraid to tell people to move back or move away, there's no other way.


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## bikingdad90 (5 Oct 2020)

Well said @plastic_cyclist!

@SkipdiverJohn the official guidance is that your infectious up to 4 days before you show symptoms or give a positive test if not showing symptoms and then required to isolate for 10 days. Your contacts are required to isolate for 14 days because for the first four days before you isolated you could have infected them and they do the extra days to “break” the chain. 

Personally, I think it’s a selfish attitude to take to carry on as normal. You could contact me in a social setting such as at a coffee house and I then go and visit my parents and infect them who in turn go and visit their parents who then contract Covid and potentially die all because you didn’t bother to isolate; as Boris said, regardless of what you think of him your not just taking a risk for yourself your risking the health of others.


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## Ming the Merciless (5 Oct 2020)

fossyant said:


> Re Turbo trainer:-
> 
> PS It's also a good way to see how any illness has affected you - at least you don't have to fall off at speed. When I wasn't well in December I wasn't well enough to ride, but I did get on the turbo - mistake. Power right down, heart rate not getting up. At least I hadn't left the garage.
> 
> There are quite a few on another 'cycling forum' that have been hit by long covid, and they can tell all their outputs are down - safe way to do it on a turbo. Some felt ill for days after trying a little exercise.



Which cycling forum is that?


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## plastic_cyclist (5 Oct 2020)

And...anyway, how much are Turbo trainers and are they like everything ! by that I mean, there's good ones (£££), there's really good ones (£££££££) and there's the happy shopper versions !!


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## shep (5 Oct 2020)

So let me get this right, If I was to download the NHS APP and visit KFC for example and check in this afternoon.

Someone else who also has the APP visits the same establishment and then some days later was proven to have Covid I would then need to stay at home and not go to work for 2 weeks?

Even though I show no signs of the disease and may have been nowhere near this person as I would have been sitting either alone or with people I know?

Surely you can see why people are loath to download this APP?


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## cambsno (5 Oct 2020)

So why do you need to isolate if you test negative - makes no sense!!


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## midlife (5 Oct 2020)

I think the app is meant to be clever enough to work out how close and for how long before flagging it up.


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## fossyant (5 Oct 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Which cycling forum is that?



Singletrack. There is a long covid thread. Nightmare


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## shep (5 Oct 2020)

midlife said:


> I think the app is meant to be clever enough to work out how close and for how long before flagging it up.


 I can't see how any APP knows where I sat in KFC!

I would assume the APP knows who was where and when and then if someone reports that they have Covid then their steps will be re-traced and everyone who was in the same place at the same time will be contacted, can't really work any other way surely?


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## classic33 (5 Oct 2020)

cambsno said:


> So why do you need to isolate if you test negative - makes no sense!!


You don't, so long as certain criteria are met. See,
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing-and-tracing/what-your-test-result-means/


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## midlife (5 Oct 2020)

The App is meant to measure distance between you and the other person (who has the app turned on) and for how long. Be that in KFC or on the golf course. It then has parameters that flag an alert. Closer than 2 metres for 15 mins for example.

Human tracers should contact the positive person and ask who they met, how close and for how long. That includes who they were eating with at KFC.


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## midlife (5 Oct 2020)

classic33 said:


> You don't, so long as certain criteria are met. See,
> https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/testing-and-tracing/what-your-test-result-means/



Doesn't include being told to isolate for 14 days by track and trace. That's how I read it?


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## shep (5 Oct 2020)

Wow, didn't realise that.

So when I go to my local and sit at a table with 2 others it would know which people I was with, providing they used the APP, and if someone across the room used the APP and proved positive I would be ok as I've not been close enough to them to be at risk.

Can't really see how that can work indoors though as I assume GPS would be required to ascertain how close I was to someone and that's going to be a little difficult.

Cheers for the info though.


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## tom73 (5 Oct 2020)

midlife said:


> The App is meant to measure distance between you and the other person (who has the app turned on) and for how long. Be that in KFC or on the golf course. It then has parameters that flag an alert. Closer than 2 metres for 15 mins for example.
> 
> Human tracers should contact the positive person and ask who they met, how close and for how long. That includes who they were eating with at KFC.


Oh the good old tried , tested and qualified human tracers. What we’d give for rooms full of them right now.


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## midlife (5 Oct 2020)

The App is completely anonymous, stores no data. The data you gave to the pub when you went in may well lead to track and trace contacting you and telling you to isolate.


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## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

shep said:


> Wow, didn't realise that.
> 
> So when I go to my local and sit at a table with 2 others it would know which people I was with, providing they used the APP, and if someone across the room used the APP and proved positive I would be ok as I've not been close enough to them to be at risk.
> 
> ...


The app doesn't use GPS. The phone uses Bluetooth to broadcast it's presence, these signals are picked up by other phones. The app is able to calculate the distance between individuals and how long those individuals were close to each other.

If two users are within two metres of each other for 15 minutes this is recorded as a "close contact."

If a user tests positive he/she is given a code to enter in to the app. The app then looks up all the phones it has been in contact with.

Any phone which has had a "close contact" - two metres, 15 minutes - is sent an alert.

If, for example, you stand by someone in a supermarket queue two metres apart for five minutes you don't get an alert.


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## midlife (5 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> The app doesn't use GPS. The phone uses Bluetooth to broadcast it's presence, these signals are picked up by other phones. The app is able to calculate the distance between individuals and how long those individuals were close to each other.
> 
> If two users are within two metres of each other for 15 minutes this is recorded as a "close contact."
> 
> ...



Thanks for explaining it better than my effort


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## plastic_cyclist (5 Oct 2020)

How does this work for professional footballers then?

I see that Sadio Mane tested positive and having played Arsenal two days before...he would have been more than 1m inside someone, even spat on the ground, tackled, hugged and high fived his way off, got changed, showered next to someone, had a rub down the next day from the club medics.... it goes on and on....

Did the whole Arsenal team get a text message the same as mine?? did Mane's rub down guy get one?? Did the Liverpool players who helped him celebrate his goal get one ?? No because they all played yesterday as did Arsenal. Thats when you understand why some people are up in arms about it.


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## Ripple (5 Oct 2020)

I'm just curious.

Self isolation finished and you show no symptoms and you're free to leave the house. You go for shopping and when you come back home the app says that you've been in a close contact with somebody who has got covid.

What should you do? Self isolate for another 14 days again?


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## midlife (5 Oct 2020)

Ripple said:


> I'm just curious.
> 
> Self isolation finished and you show no symptoms and you're free to leave the house. You go for shopping and when you come back home the app says that you've been in a close contact with somebody who has got covid.
> 
> What should you do? Self isolate for another 14 days again?



Yep, where I worked today this is starting to play out.....


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## plastic_cyclist (5 Oct 2020)

midlife said:


> Yep, where I worked today this is starting to play out.....


Thats ridiculous though, people won't be able to get paid for all this time off work. What about the guys who are temps in warehouses and logistics centres, they need that money, if they brush past someone with COVID who might not know they've got it, they're out of a job!


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## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> How does this work for professional footballers then?
> 
> I see that Sadio Mane tested positive and having played Arsenal two days before...he would have been more than 1m inside someone, even spat on the ground, tackled, hugged and high fived his way off, got changed, showered next to someone, had a rub down the next day from the club medics.... it goes on and on....
> 
> Did the whole Arsenal team get a text message the same as mine?? did Mane's rub down guy get one?? Did the Liverpool players who helped him celebrate his goal get one ?? No because they all played yesterday as did Arsenal. Thats when you understand why some people are up in arms about it.


I don't pretend to understand how it works for PL footballers and I don't really care. I'm sure with some research you could discover what the PL have done in their attempts to limit infection and spread. It must be pretty rigorous.

I realise you're unhappy about the situation but this is all about the population as a whole and not footballers - it's easy to work out who they have had contact with.


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## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

midlife said:


> Thanks for explaining it better than my effort


I hope I'm right. I did spend 3-4 days looking into it when the app became available as I was quite baffled by it.

For me one of the big issues around this, and many other Covid-19 related matters, is the almost complete lack of clear, simple instruction.


----------



## vickster (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> Thats ridiculous though, people won't be able to get paid for all this time off work. What about the guys who are temps in warehouses and logistics centres, they need that money, if they brush past someone with COVID who might not know they've got it, they're out of a job!


Statutory sick pay?


----------



## cambsno (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> How does this work for professional footballers then?
> 
> I see that Sadio Mane tested positive and having played Arsenal two days before...he would have been more than 1m inside someone, even spat on the ground, tackled, hugged and high fived his way off, got changed, showered next to someone, had a rub down the next day from the club medics.... it goes on and on....
> 
> Did the whole Arsenal team get a text message the same as mine?? did Mane's rub down guy get one?? Did the Liverpool players who helped him celebrate his goal get one ?? No because they all played yesterday as did Arsenal. Thats when you understand why some people are up in arms about it.



Maybe thats why they lost 7-2 !!!


----------



## vickster (5 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> I don't pretend to understand how it works for PL footballers and I don't really care. I'm sure with some research you could discover what the PL have done in their attempts to limit infection and spread. It must be pretty rigorous.


I expect they’re testing everyone almost daily, or at least a statistically calculated proportion
https://www.premierleague.com/news/1814863


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

Ripple said:


> I'm just curious.
> 
> Self isolation finished and you show no symptoms and you're free to leave the house. You go for shopping and when you come back home the app says that you've been in a close contact with somebody who has got covid.
> 
> What should you do? Self isolate for another 14 days again?


If you went shopping how likely is it you stood next to someone for 15 minutes.


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> Thats ridiculous though, people won't be able to get paid for all this time off work. What about the guys who are temps in warehouses and logistics centres, they need that money, if they brush past someone with COVID who might not know they've got it, they're out of a job!


Brushing by someone is irrelevant to the app. It would have no impact nor create an alert.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (5 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> If you went shopping how likely is it you stood next to someone for 15 minutes.



Quite high if queuing to get into one of the smaller ones.


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> I expect they’re testing everyone almost daily, or at least a statistically calculated proportion
> https://www.premierleague.com/news/1814863


I imagine so. The PL have so much money and so much at stake the clubs will be throwing everything they can at it.


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Quite high if queuing to get into one of the smaller ones.


This though is where taking responsibility for oneself comes in to play.

If one can't queue safely don't join the queue. It isn't difficult. I've spent the last six months minimising my contact with others in such situations.


----------



## snorri (5 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The MP obviously thought it was OK otherwise they wouldn't have done it....... like the Labour one who went to the funeral


Why, out of 650 MPs do you choose to model your behaviour on that of the two who have broken the rules?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (5 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> This though is where taking responsibility for oneself comes in to play.
> 
> If one can't queue safely don't join the queue. It isn't difficult. I've spent the last six months minimising my contact with others in such situations.



Which means queuing at least 3m away from anyone else


----------



## plastic_cyclist (5 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> If you went shopping how likely is it you stood next to someone for 15 minutes.


Isn't it inside 1m for 1min ?


----------



## plastic_cyclist (5 Oct 2020)

Just shows you why it's spreading if a bunch of cycling enthusiasts can't even agree !!


----------



## vickster (5 Oct 2020)

Isn't the Scottish app different?
Why should a bunch of cyclists agree about a T&T app?!


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> Isn't it inside 1m for 1min ?


My understanding is it is two metres for 15 minutes. Realistically it has to be a reasonable period or the entire country would be in quarantine.

I was at a cafe today. The waitress was within two metres for a couple of minutes. There have to be practical aspects to this.

With some reading around all the relevant information is available on .gov.uk or in the NHS app. Can I suggest you spend some of your time researching it. It's your best option rather than relying on a bunch of random internet opinions.


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Which means queuing at least 3m away from anyone else


Possibly I don't know. If I see a large queue or feel the situation is unsafe I simply leave.


----------



## Julia9054 (5 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> The app doesn't use GPS. The phone uses Bluetooth to broadcast it's presence, these signals are picked up by other phones. The app is able to calculate the distance between individuals and how long those individuals were close to each other.
> 
> If two users are within two metres of each other for 15 minutes this is recorded as a "close contact."
> 
> ...


Why do we need to check into venues then if proximity between phones is how it works?


----------



## PaulSB (5 Oct 2020)

Julia9054 said:


> Why do we need to check into venues then if proximity between phones is how it works?


My understanding is checking in to venues aids the track and trace system. I've assumed this is to help the instances where it's deemed necessary to contact all who've been in the premises.

I'm not an expert, I've read and tried to understand. Can I suggest you download the app and read the FAQs. I think you posted at some point there was no reason why you should use it so possibly you're not really interested??

You can find all the info in the app. Follow this route in the app

How the app works >What the app does >Check in


----------



## DRM (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> Thats ridiculous though, people won't be able to get paid for all this time off work. What about the guys who are temps in warehouses and logistics centres, they need that money, if they brush past someone with COVID who might not know they've got it, they're out of a job!


There are lots of temps working in warehouses, they are being trained up and are basically cannon fodder to cover full time staff if/when they have to self isolate, the management don’t give a hoot about them, they’re ten a penny and replaceable as far as the bosses are concerned


----------



## gavgav (5 Oct 2020)

cambsno said:


> So why do you need to isolate if you test negative - makes no sense!!


Because of the potential incubation period for the virus. It’s really not that difficult to understand.


----------



## gavgav (5 Oct 2020)

shep said:


> So let me get this right, If I was to download the NHS APP and visit KFC for example and check in this afternoon.
> 
> Someone else who also has the APP visits the same establishment and then some days later was proven to have Covid I would then need to stay at home and not go to work for 2 weeks?
> 
> ...


Not unless you’ve been in contact for more than 15 minutes at less than 2 metre distance, no.


----------



## classic33 (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> Just shows you why it's spreading if a bunch of cycling enthusiasts can't even agree !!


Why should _"a bunch of cycling enthusiasts"_ be any different to any other group of people?

What we seem to have in common with any other group is that some don't feel the rules should apply to them.

I shouldn't be allowed out, high risk group, according to some. This to allow them to carry on as they want to. It's their right, what about my rights? I want this over and done with as soon as possible, with a return to "normal" as soon as possible. But I'm well aware that whatever comes after this, will not be the same as before.

Also, with people flouting the rules and trying to say the law doesn't apply to them, they are simply extending it for all of us. I want to start being treated for long term conditions again. Everything stopped when this started. I'm managing three long term conditions by myself, on top of the current situation. Why should my health be put at risk, not being treated, because some people just don't want to accept that the law applies to them as it does me.


----------



## gavgav (5 Oct 2020)

shep said:


> I can't see how any APP knows where I sat in KFC!
> 
> I would assume the APP knows who was where and when and then if someone reports that they have Covid then their steps will be re-traced and everyone who was in the same place at the same time will be contacted, can't really work any other way surely?


Bluetooth exchanges between phones. It is not simply being in the same building as someone.


----------



## gavgav (5 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> How does this work for professional footballers then?
> 
> I see that Sadio Mane tested positive and having played Arsenal two days before...he would have been more than 1m inside someone, even spat on the ground, tackled, hugged and high fived his way off, got changed, showered next to someone, had a rub down the next day from the club medics.... it goes on and on....
> 
> Did the whole Arsenal team get a text message the same as mine?? did Mane's rub down guy get one?? Did the Liverpool players who helped him celebrate his goal get one ?? No because they all played yesterday as did Arsenal. Thats when you understand why some people are up in arms about it.


But they are being tested every day. If the whole population could be tested every day, then life would pretty much return to normal. Pie in the sky thinking, which Boris is still aiming for!


----------



## gavgav (5 Oct 2020)

Ripple said:


> I'm just curious.
> 
> Self isolation finished and you show no symptoms and you're free to leave the house. You go for shopping and when you come back home the app says that you've been in a close contact with somebody who has got covid.
> 
> What should you do? Self isolate for another 14 days again?


Yes


----------



## cambsno (6 Oct 2020)

gavgav said:


> Because of the potential incubation period for the virus. It’s really not that difficult to understand.


So why bother having a test then?


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

PaulSB said:


> This though is where taking responsibility for oneself comes in to play.
> 
> If one can't queue safely don't join the queue. It isn't difficult. I've spent the last six months minimising my contact with others in such situations.



That takes commonsense though, seriously lacking in many cases it seems.


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> There are lots of temps working in warehouses, they are being trained up and are basically cannon fodder to cover full time staff if/when they have to self isolate, the management don’t give a hoot about them, they’re ten a penny and replaceable as far as the bosses are concerned



I think there are many people in management who are caring citizens.


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I haven't got the tracing app and have no intention of downloading it, despite work trying to promote it. As regards giving details at venues, I don't volunteer any information. If I go somewhere and they don't bother to ask, then I tell them nothing. I only give any details if actively asked for them. I haven't told anyone I'm Donald Trump or Mickey Mouse either.


So if asked you give your correct details?
It's not obligatory to use the app and I too have concerns about it.
I have been in the odd spoons very recently and they seem to be being very hot on asking for details. I have used paper.
I hope you aren't telling the paper folk that you are going to use the app and then not using the app?
If folk follow their system I think I feel safer (for me and others) in the spoons than almost anywhere, definitely than in shops.


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

cambsno said:


> So why bother having a test then?



I guess you do not if you have not got symptoms and are isolating as requested.


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I too find this odd.
> What's the point of the test then?



I think the test may not be able to read the incubation period of the virus.


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> I think the test may not be able to read the incubation period of the virus.


very quick off the mark there  - have just deleted my post after reading @classic33 's helpful link.


----------



## SkipdiverJohn (6 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> So if asked you give your correct details?



I do but only if specifically asked to. If I go in somewhere and don't get challenged, then I say nothing. More often than not, if it's somewhere I've been before and my face is familiar I don't get asked. Staff seem to be concentrating on new faces not regular customers. I can understand why, it must be a right pain in the arse having to ask customers umpteen times a day for details. They are probably more diligent with strangers in case someone is checking they are complying. Anyone who knows me also knows I'm not about to grass them up for ignoring something I don't agree with in the first place!


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I do but only if specifically asked to. If I go in somewhere and don't get challenged, then I say nothing. More often than not, if it's somewhere I've been before and my face is familiar I don't get asked. Staff seem to be concentrating on new faces not regular customers. I can understand why, it must be a right pain in the arse having to ask customers umpteen times a day for details. They are probably more diligent with strangers in case someone is checking they are complying. Anyone who knows me also knows I'm not about to grass them up for ignoring something I don't agree with in the first place!



So you care about others that break the rules, but less so those that stick to them, seems odd to a lot of us.


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Oct 2020)

Well I can't blame you for not searching out folks to give your details to but those places not asking you should be called to account.
Not asking on the grounds that they recognise you is just bonkers. Irrelevant.


----------



## DRM (6 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> I think there are many people in management who are caring citizens.


Not from what I have seen in several large distribution centres, they only care about KPI's and pick numbers, hence hoards of temps being trained ready to take over as soon as other staff are off sick, and in one at the height of the first wave staff were not allowed wear masks as "it's scare mongering" that came from the warehouse manager.


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> Not from what I have seen in several large distribution centres, they only care about KPI's and pick numbers, hence hoards of temps being trained ready to take over as soon as other staff are off sick, and in one at the height of the first wave staff were not allowed wear masks as "it's scare mongering" that came from the warehouse manager.



With all due respect it is possible you only know the bad one's.


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Well I can't blame you for not searching out folks to give your details to but those places not asking you should be called to account.
> Not asking on the grounds that they recognise you is just bonkers. Irrelevant.



Do they know him as the bloke who goes through skips, or have all his contact details? I agree if a business is not doing things properly they deserve to be punished.


----------



## tom73 (6 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> Isn't the Scottish app different?
> Why should a bunch of cyclists agree about a T&T app?!


No built around the same Apple/google alert program.


----------



## tom73 (6 Oct 2020)

Julia9054 said:


> Why do we need to check into venues then if proximity between phones is how it works?


It's so the venue can be contact and told they are a possible source of translation. It also help local public health track case numbers on the ground at a very local level. One outbreak at one venue is not a big issue but if multiple start showing cases at the venue. That's a problem and they are likely to get a visit by public health.


----------



## DRM (6 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> With all due respect it is possible you only know the bad one's.


No, it’s all the huge ones, they are run on behalf of large national companies by huge logistics companies, it’s also convenient that when one of their trucks runs you off the road and you complain they tell you that they don’t run a fleet of trucks and it’s all subcontracted out to a third party, thereby conveniently washing their hands of the whole thing.


----------



## pawl (6 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear. If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.




Your attitude like many others is probably why the incidents of the virus are rising Yes I have the app.If I have been in contact with COVID 19 I want to be able to protect family and friends 

You obviously don’t care or you don’t have family or friends you think worth protecting .It will be to late when the symptoms appear the damage will have been done.


----------



## gavgav (6 Oct 2020)

cambsno said:


> So why bother having a test then?


You only have a test if you have symptoms. The discussion was about those self isolating without symptoms. In an ideal world we would all be able to self test, every day and if negative we would be able to go about our daily business. It won’t happen....


----------



## pawl (6 Oct 2020)

classic33 said:


> Why should _"a bunch of cycling enthusiasts"_ be any different to any other group of people?
> 
> What we seem to have in common with any other group is that some don't feel the rules should apply to them.
> 
> ...







unfortunately there are to many people who don’t understand who dangerous to a lot of the population.I think when I see the number of deaths hells teeth that’s the equivalent of a football stadium

By age I am in the at risk bracket I don’t have any underlying health conditions.I am still careful about where I visit in terms of how busy it is.If I feel it to be unsafe I will walk away


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> No, it’s all the huge ones, they are run on behalf of large national companies by huge logistics companies, it’s also convenient that when one of their trucks runs you off the road and you complain they tell you that they don’t run a fleet of trucks and it’s all subcontracted out to a third party, thereby conveniently washing their hands of the whole thing.




You do realise that some of the people on here may have middle managemnet or management jobs, you may even be one yourself, I still go by not all are bad.


----------



## oldwheels (6 Oct 2020)

Darius_Jedburgh said:


> How does our Police State expect you to eat?
> Or do they take the view that starvation doesn't count towards the protecting the National Virus Service death total so you won't officially be dead?


If you are officially told to self isolate you should be offered a delivery service of a standard basic box or a food delivery service of your choice. This service may of course now be stopped but it operated during the lockdown. The local council were the people who coordinated this I think. This was for those living on their own with no other assistance.


----------



## vickster (6 Oct 2020)

oldwheels said:


> If you are officially told to self isolate you should be offered a delivery service of a standard basic box or a food delivery service of your choice. This service may of course now be stopped but it operated during the lockdown. The local council were the people who coordinated this I think. This was for those living on their own with no other assistance.


This was only for people requested to shield due to health conditions putting them at high risk, not those asked to isolate by T&T following possible exposure to the virus or a positive test (afaik at least in England)


----------



## fossyant (6 Oct 2020)

The word 'was' - you don't get a delivery slot now AFAIK. I've registered for Morrision/Amazon deliveries 'if/when' we have to isolate - currently don't use any supermarkets for delivery. I'm on a 'waiting list' to be approved for delivery.

I bet the OP wished he never asked the question.


----------



## oldwheels (6 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> This was only for people requested to shield due to health conditions putting them at high risk, not those asked to isolate by T&T following possible exposure to the virus or a positive test (afaik at least in England)


Yes I think you are correct and in any case I think that scheme has now stopped anyway. If we get another lockdown at least in parts some provision should be made for those unable by law to get food shopping.


----------



## vickster (6 Oct 2020)

oldwheels said:


> Yes I think you are correct and in any case I think that scheme has now stopped anyway. If we get another lockdown at least in parts some provision should be made for those unable by law to get food shopping.


Shielding was never enforced by law, but was very strongly advised


----------



## Venod (6 Oct 2020)

This was on my Facebook feed.

I’m just a thick pub landlady who’s been involved in this game for over 35years...This is an open “rant” to all the people slandering pubs + the hospitality sector..
Close your eyes and think of this
I could get on a bus and travel into blackwood ( no track & trace) exit the bus and walk through the town.. call into my banks.. TSB.. Barclays.. RBS.. ooh and Santander..( no track & trace) mmm I’m hungry...ooh I’ll call into greggs and get a steak bake... ( no track & trace).. return to the bus stop and make my way home... ( no track & trace)
Get off the bus & go shopping at ...Tesco’s, Morrison’s, Aldi, Asda etc ( no track & trace) have my tea... mm fancy a pint in the local...wait I need to call into the local shop...( no track & trace)... oooh at last a nice pint in my local... oops wait... need a mask & sign in to the track & trace or scan the QR code ...plus book ahead in advance ...wonder which is safer, peace at last.


----------



## PaulSB (6 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> This was on my Facebook feed.
> 
> I’m just a thick pub landlady who’s been involved in this game for over 35years...This is an open “rant” to all the people slandering pubs + the hospitality sector..
> Close your eyes and think of this
> ...


Another then who doesn't understand the risks and where these occur.

Where are the risks in this lady's rant? On the bus so one hopes she is using the NHS T&T app. All the other instances present negligible risk provided she follows the guidelines.

I'm not aware of people in general slandering the hospitality sector.

She seems to have chosen the correct adjective though.


----------



## classic33 (6 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> This was on my Facebook feed.
> 
> I’m just a thick pub landlady who’s been involved in this game for over 35years...This is an open “rant” to all the people slandering pubs + the hospitality sector..
> Close your eyes and think of this
> ...


The banks locally have someone on the door taking names and times. Gregg's has a QR code, as do most take out place's. Along with a restriction on numbers on the premises.

The "big four" all have someone restricting numbers in the shop. With nearly every other chain shop doing likewise. 

Pubs are the only place that are allowing more people into the building than a large supermarket, at the same time. They are not restricted number wise, other than by physical limit.

Even buses are travelling less than half full, 19-20 on a vehicle that can carry 57.

And all require that a mask be worn whilst on the premises. Even the bus and train stations require masks to be worn.


----------



## Venod (6 Oct 2020)

classic33 said:


> Pubs are the only place that are allowing more people into the building than a large supermarket, at the same time. They are not restricted number wise, other than by physical limit



They are resticted, no more than six at a table, tables distanced 2m apart, table service only, no standing, it would be a large pub that gets more people in than a supermarket if they are following the rules.


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> They are resticted, no more than six at a table, tables distanced 2m apart, table service only, no standing, it would be a large pub that gets more people in than a supermarket if they are following the rules.


Yes, i"ve been in a couple of spoons. Reduced capacity, folk counted in and out to maintain this. Person inside door to take details. No approaching the bar at all. Sanitizer stations on entrance and scattered around. Most seem to be hands free use. Safer than my supermarket visits i'm sure.
Not complaining but has killed the atmosphere of my local one. If it weren"t for the fact that the beer is substantially better it would now remind me of one or two places i went to in the soviet union - folk singlemindedly just popping in for a beer.


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> They are resticted, no more than six at a table, tables distanced 2m apart, table service only, no standing, it would be a large pub that gets more people in than a supermarket if they are following the rules.



I wonder if some places use elastic tape measures.


----------



## classic33 (6 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> They are resticted, no more than six at a table, tables distanced 2m apart, table service only, no standing, it would be a large pub that gets more people in than a supermarket if they are following the rules.


The pubs re-opened with no limit, on the number on the premise's. Shops re-opened with a pre-set limit in place. All take out food shops/cafes have the QR code in place at the door. Yet to see a pub with one.

Because there is no pre-set limit on the number on the premises, they re-opened agreeing to a set of rules that included taking the contact details of those who entered. And they're not that big, premises wise. Nor do they have people queuing outside, waiting to be served.


----------



## Blue Hills (6 Oct 2020)

I"d look more closely classic.
Your picture isn't one i recognise from some recent visits.
In one, and this was before the stricter measures i was politely but firmly asked/told to give my details before ordering and even before taking my cycling mitts off.


----------



## tom73 (6 Oct 2020)

Distance went to 1m + before they opened the + look's to have never happened. Funny how our spoons removed the fixed tables outside and then replaced them with none fixed one. Ending up with more than before maybe she'd be better off taking it out on the pubs that never really did anything. Only now after covid secure become law are many now having to play ball. Pepole who own and work in pubs would have known the ones who never did anything. Maybe if they'd named and shamed them they'd have had a better chance of all staying open. 
I never heard any ask for covid secure to be made law from day one or for face covers to be legal requirement. All they pushed for was to get open and get more tables in.


----------



## Venod (6 Oct 2020)

classic33 said:


> The pubs re-opened with no limit, on the number on the premise's


They are limited by the 2m rule, they can't just pack them in.


classic33 said:


> All take out food shops/cafes have the QR code in place at the door. Yet to see a pub with one.


I have been in three pubs since the app came out, everyone with a QR code, plus at spoons I had to leave name and phone number as well as scanning in.


classic33 said:


> Nor do they have people queuing outside, waiting to be served.


I have seen queues outside two pubs, with people waiting for a seat, the one outside spoons was very long.


----------



## Venod (6 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> I wonder if some places use elastic tape measures.



Woudn't that make the distance measured greater ?


----------



## BoldonLad (6 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> I ain’t got a turbo !!



Amazon


----------



## classic33 (6 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I"d look more closely classic.
> Your picture isn't one i recognise from some recent visits.
> In one, and this was before the stricter measures i was politely but firmly asked/told to give my details before ordering and even before taking my cycling mitts off.


Anywhere near the town centre?


----------



## screenman (6 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> Woudn't that make the distance measured greater ?



No.


----------



## DRM (6 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> You do realise that some of the people on here may have middle managemnet or management jobs, you may even be one yourself, I still go by not all are bad.


But I never said all management are bad, just the reason why warehouses are rammed with temps, and the attitude of some, I standby what I say about the temps being cannon fodder


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Oct 2020)

classic33 said:


> Anywhere near the town centre?


Not sure why you ask.
That particular episode was in a town centre, wimborne minster, here.






That's a light buff/facemask hanging over the bars.
All of the pubs i have been in were town centre ones.


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Oct 2020)

Venod said:


> I have seen queues outside two pubs, with people waiting for a seat, the one outside spoons was very long.


Queue outside spoons in chichester the other week.


----------



## classic33 (7 Oct 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Not sure why you ask.
> That particular episode was in a town centre, wimborne minster, here.
> View attachment 551009
> 
> ...


I thought you meant up here. Which is where it developed from. 
I'd posted earlier on local restrictions seen. Apologies if you thought it was meant for/aimed at you.


----------



## lane (9 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> But I never said all management are bad, just the reason why warehouses are rammed with temps, and the attitude of some, I standby what I say about the temps being cannon fodder



Some senior management in various sectors do not prioritize the health and safety of employees where Covid is concerned over other goals. The thing is if they took a slightly longer term view it might well pay them to do so. There is also an immense amount of genuine ignorance in some senior positions - either that or willful ignorance I am never quite sure. To be fair also a heck of lot of window dressing aided and abetted by the Government down.

Edit - and some good managers who actually do give a toss and know it makes sense for the business as well.


----------



## screenman (10 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> Some senior management in various sectors do not prioritize the health and safety of employees where Covid is concerned over other goals. The thing is if they took a slightly longer term view it might well pay them to do so. There is also an immense amount of genuine ignorance in some senior positions - either that or willful ignorance I am never quite sure. To be fair also a heck of lot of window dressing aided and abetted by the Government down.
> 
> Edit - and some good managers who actually do give a toss and know it makes sense for the business as well.



If you are not one already why not become a manager so that you can show others how it should be done.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> If you are not one already why not become a manager so that you can show others how it should be done.



Management roles in many organisations are unattractive propositions for anyone in a skilled job who does a bit of overtime. The blokes often earn more money than their boss, don't have to make themselves available 24/7, don't take their workload home with them, and aren't sitting indoors churning out work-related emails at eleven o'clock at night. Oh, and they don't need to sycophantically pretend to _their_ senior managers that the newest organisation initiative to improve "efficiency" is brilliant, when actually it will turn out to be a complete shitshow and the seniors will just blame the resulting failure of the idea to improve anything on the juniors for not implementing it properly.
The majority of junior managers now in post on my job were previously the BS artists who could talk a good job, were happy to kiss a few arses, but couldn't hack it themselves at the sharp end - which is why they went into management roles. They command near-zero respect and struggle to deliver anything because they can't generate the necessary can-do goodwill attitude from their subordinates that actually gets things done. 
Most of them don't give a shoot about the welfare of their staff, just paying lip service to the official touchy-feely HR policies because they have to be seen to, but in reality all they care about is staying off their own bosses radar for underperformance.


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## Slick (10 Oct 2020)

Wow, you definitely live in a very different world to me John and for that I am truly thankful.


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## mikeIow (10 Oct 2020)

Slick said:


> Wow, you definitely live in a very different world to me John and for that I am truly thankful.


Curiously, I find John’s assessment is pretty reasonable for many large organisations.....
My boss confirms it frequently (he is a rare breed who enjoys the “doing” more than the “managing”, but commands much respect from his team and gets things done that need doing!)


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

mikeIow said:


> Curiously, I find John’s assessment is pretty reasonable for many large organisations.....
> My boss confirms it frequently (he is a rare breed who enjoys the “doing” more than the “managing”, but commands much respect from his team and gets things done that need doing!)



My old guvnor who retired after 37 years in April was brilliant, and everyone gave him 110% effort as a mark of respect. His replacement is tolerable, but not in the same league. He just gets the bare bones amount of commitment, and nothing more than that. Some of the managers who are* really* disliked, couldn't get their staff to piss on them if they were on fire. Total lack of employee engagement.


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## DRM (10 Oct 2020)

Slick said:


> Wow, you definitely live in a very different world to me John and for that I am truly thankful.


I find that Skipdiver John has hit the nail firmly on the head, in my experience a management role is exactly as he describes, for an extra £500 a year, all the above is yours along with dealing with emails whilst on holiday, and they wonder why nobody wants these positions.
All these people are are sh*t shields for those way on high who make all the right noises, but in reality prevent anything getting done.


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## Slick (10 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> I find that Skipdiver John has hit the nail firmly on the head, in my experience a management role is exactly as he describes, for an extra £500 a year, all the above is yours along with dealing with emails whilst on holiday, and they wonder why nobody wants these positions.
> All these people are are sh*t shields for those way on high who make all the right noises, but in reality prevent anything getting done.


Your either in the wrong job or doing it wrong but either way we are all just a product of our own experiences and it's as far removed from mine as is possible.


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## Slick (10 Oct 2020)

mikeIow said:


> Curiously, I find John’s assessment is pretty reasonable for many large organisations.....
> My boss confirms it frequently (he is a rare breed who enjoys the “doing” more than the “managing”, but commands much respect from his team and gets things done that need doing!)


Pretty much my own preferred style because of my background.


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## Slick (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> My old guvnor who retired after 37 years in April was brilliant, and everyone gave him 110% effort as a mark of respect. His replacement is tolerable, but not in the same league. He just gets the bare bones amount of commitment, and nothing more than that. Some of the managers who are* really* disliked, couldn't get their staff to piss on them if they were on fire. Total lack of employee engagement.


I have far too much respect for myself and my own contribution to only give the minimum bare bones commitment. Every man to his own though.


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## lane (10 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> If you are not one already why not become a manager so that you can show others how it should be done.



At my level in my more specialist role in my sector I don't get to make those decisions. I'm more interested in retirement now than chasing promotion - done all that and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.


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## Pale Rider (10 Oct 2020)

A phrase that applies in my place is: "Success has many parents, but failure is always an orphan."

In other words, if something goes well, lots of people are scrabbling around to claim credit, but if it messes up, those same people are nowhere to be seen.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

Slick said:


> Your either in the wrong job or doing it wrong



I've been doing my job longer than some of the latest crop of wannabee managers have been on this earth. Given the right motivation from decent management, I get a lot done and solve problems myself rather than dump them in the managers lap to deal with.. Without that motivation, I just show up, go through the motions, and collect my wages at the end of the month. Same goes for several long-serving colleagues. Attitude now is let the managers get on with it, they think they know best - but they actually know nothing. They're the ones getting stressed and putting in 70 hour weeks for no extra pay, not us. 



Slick said:


> I have far too much respect for myself and my own contribution to only give the minimum bare bones commitment. Every man to his own though.



Boils down to motivation and getting recognition of what you do. My old manager only became one by accident after he had his arm twisted to cover a vacant manager post "temporarily" over 15 years ago. He was good at his job when on the tools and he appreciated the effort people put in to get things done, because he'd been there himself. My old manager's opinion of me and my colleagues mattered because we respected him, so we made the effort. We don't give a fig now what the useless managers think of us, because they couldn't even do our jobs, whereas the old manager could and had done.


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## DRM (10 Oct 2020)

Slick said:


> Your either in the wrong job or doing it wrong but either way we are all just a product of our own experiences and it's as far removed from mine as is possible.


Why am I doing it wrong, I have more than enough experience & the skills to do my job, we don’t rely on management as we are quite capable of thinking out of the box in order to get things done, all the staff on the road help each other out, whereas those in charge don’t know one end of a spanner from the other.
they have never done the job, and can’t do our job, we are thought of as being beneath those in shirts & ties, yet it’s the blokes on the tools that bring in the profits.


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## Badger_Boom (10 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> ...they have never done the job, and can’t do our job...


That’s not what they’re there for; the fact that they may be useless at _their_ job is a different matter.


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## DRM (10 Oct 2020)

Badger_Boom said:


> That’s not what they’re there for; the fact that they may be useless at _their_ job is a different matter.


But how can they tell staff what to do, when they have absolutely no grasp of what staff on the coal face have to contend with, once upon a time the older, more experienced staff were promoted and had the experience and skills to help out properly, now they surround themselves with yes men, regardless of ability.
Managing an office or a shop and the staff is nothing like managing a team of skilled field engineers.


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## Badger_Boom (10 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> But how can they tell staff what to do, when they have absolutely no grasp of what staff on the coal face have to contend with, once upon a time the older, more experienced staff were promoted and had the experience and skills to help out properly, now they surround themselves with yes men, regardless of ability


I work in a field where one of the biggest problems is that it’s run by managers who’ve largely come from working on the tools, but have little to no experience of or training in ‘management‘. They understand how the job is done at the front line, but not how to make best use of their workforce, or even worse how to keep it busy and we’ll paid.


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## lane (10 Oct 2020)

Whatever you manage its better if you have some idea of even better experience of the context in my opinion - if you are managed by someone in an ivory tower it can make life harder


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## screenman (10 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> At my level in my more specialist role in my sector I don't get to make those decisions. I'm more interested in retirement now than chasing promotion - done all that and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be.



Funny how people who are not have been managers or business owners think it is easy.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

Badger_Boom said:


> That’s not what they’re there for; the fact that they may be useless at _their_ job is a different matter.



It matters a lot in terms of having credibility, earning respect, and having their authority to tell people what to do accepted. Managers who are not well respected will never get anything more than the barest of bare minimums out of the people they are supposedly in charge of. Being a manager is not a profession in it's own right, to be considered legitimate you need not only management skills, but a working knowledge of the type of job that you are supposed to be managing. You can't just parachute into a field you know nothing about, then start to tell the people who *do* know what they are doing, how to do their jobs! Having a degree and a shirt and ties, but no real hands-on experience just doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid.


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## Brandane (10 Oct 2020)

I liked the Merchant Navy way of doing things. "Never ask someone to do something that you haven't done yourself."
My next job, in public service was somewhat different. There was even talk of them recruiting people from other walks of life into management posts at one point. I don't think that ever happened, thankfully.


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## lane (10 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> Funny how people who are not have been managers or business owners think it is easy.



Yeah well if you can quote the bit about where I said it was easy that will be great. Been a manger of some sort for the majority of my nearly 40 year working like also sometimes with a lot of H & S responsibility. It's not easy but just because it's hard didn't mean you have a right as a manager to ignore the health and safety of your workers. How many people do you manage I thought you are self employed.


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## Pale Rider (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Being a manager is not a profession in its own right,



That is a debatable contention.

At the highest level, some executives of large plcs move seamlessly from one sector to another.

In other words, they have the talent to run a multi-million pound business, the type of business is largely irrelevant.

Rightly or wrongly, public bodies such as the NHS recruit senior managers from businesses of all types.

In that example, the professional skill required is management, it's not being able to perform a heart transplant.


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## BoldonLad (10 Oct 2020)

Many years ago, I worked in the UK Shipbuilding Industry.

There used to be an Industry joke: "Japanese Managers have 20 years experience, UK Managers have 1 years experience 20 times".


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## vickster (10 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> That is a debatable contention.
> 
> At the highest level, some executives of large plcs move seamlessly from one sector to another.
> 
> ...


Friend of mine works in NHS for a large MH trust and says clinicians are almost always appalling managers. The ‘professional’ managers are far better suited to the job of managing and clinicians should focus on the clinical aspect where they (hopefully) excel. 

Every manager I’ve had over the years in my business have been pretty good and understand the job as they’ve all done it and are still able to when called upon. 

I’ve never met a senior manager who doesn’t know how to do the elements of the job which require experience and senior expertise


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## newfhouse (10 Oct 2020)

Being a skilled widget maker doesn’t mean you will necessarily the best at managing a team of skilled widget makers. You need an appreciation and understanding of the task but this can be gained through listening to the actual workers. It helps if you have the knack of knowing whose judgement to trust. This allows you to identify those that are happy take a full wage for deliberately doing the bare minimum.

Fortunately I no longer have to worry every month about paying other people’s salaries, but when I did directly employ people I’d usually favour attitude over skill. Competence can usually be taught, pride and work ethic not so much.


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## Rusty Nails (10 Oct 2020)

Very often, when you promote your best scientist/doctor/engineer to manage the department you end up losing your best expert worker and gaining a mediocre manager.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

newfhouse said:


> Being a skilled widget maker doesn’t mean you will necessarily the best at managing a team of skilled widget makers. You need an appreciation and understanding of the task but this can be gained through listening to the actual workers.



One of the attributes of all good managers is the ability to let people get on with the job how their experience says it needs to be done, and not try to interfere and micro-manage things. The manager should be there purely to help resolve issues that the frontline staff can't do themselves. They should facilitate the orderly working of whatever activity they manage. Trying to tell people with 30-40 years of actual hands-on experience of a job how to do things is never going to end well. If the staff feel bloody minded, they'll do things the manager's way, in the full knowledge that his way will fall flat on it's face, then they'll leave the manager to pick up the pieces and explain to his managers why he isn't performing!  
I've been someone who played a part in doing precisely that once, caused a big project to run aground, and cost my employer a lot of money sorting the ensuing mess out. The manager got moved elsewhere PDQ though, which was the aim as he was a complete w****r..👍


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## newfhouse (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> One of the attributes of all good managers is the ability to let people get on with the job how their experience says it needs to be done, and not try to interfere and micro-manage things. The manager should be there purely to help resolve issues that the frontline staff can't do themselves. They should facilitate the orderly working of whatever activity they manage. Trying to tell people with 30-40 years of actual hands-on experience of a job how to do things is never going to end well.


I broadly agree with this, although not many jobs can or do remain unchanged for decades.


SkipdiverJohn said:


> If the staff feel bloody minded, they'll do things the manager's way, in the full knowledge that his way will fall flat on it's face, then they'll leave the manager to pick up the pieces and explain to his managers why he isn't performing!
> I've been someone who played a part in doing precisely that once, caused a big project to run aground, and cost my employer a lot of money sorting the ensuing mess out.


I suspect we’ve all felt sometimes that the only way to make a point is to let the decision maker feel _some_ consequences, but it’s a dangerous game to play. I’d try to avoid employing anyone that deliberately cost me or my firm large sums of money, whatever their self justification. Maybe I’m lucky that the employers I have stayed with for more than a few years have generally valued my expertise and ideas.


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## Rusty Nails (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> One of the attributes of all good managers is the ability to let people get on with the job how their experience says it needs to be done, and not try to interfere and micro-manage things. The manager should be there purely to help resolve issues that the frontline staff can't do themselves. They should facilitate the orderly working of whatever activity they manage. Trying to tell people with 30-40 years of actual hands-on experience of a job how to do things is never going to end well. If the staff feel bloody minded, they'll do things the manager's way, in the full knowledge that his way will fall flat on it's face, then they'll leave the manager to pick up the pieces and explain to his managers why he isn't performing!
> *I've been someone who played a part in doing precisely that once, caused a big project to run aground, and cost my employer a lot of money sorting the ensuing mess out. *The manager got moved elsewhere PDQ though, which was the aim as he was a complete w****r..👍



Why am I not surprised.

Yes, there are crappy managers, but another one of the big problems I came across in companies was the number of people who had been doing their jobs for 30/40 years and couldn't or wouldn't see how those jobs, and the way they were done, needed to change with the times, and made life as difficult as they could for the managers who had responsibility for change.


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## screenman (10 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> Yeah well if you can quote the bit about where I said it was easy that will be great. Been a manger of some sort for the majority of my nearly 40 year working like also sometimes with a lot of H & S responsibility. It's not easy but just because it's hard didn't mean you have a right as a manager to ignore the health and safety of your workers. How many people do you manage I thought you are self employed.




It was not aimed at you, sorry it sounded that way I just hate to see all managers get tarred with the same brush by people that could not or will not do the job.


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## BoldonLad (10 Oct 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> Why am I not surprised.
> 
> Yes, there are crappy managers, but another one of the big problems I came across in companies was the number of people who had been *doing their jobs for 30/40 years and couldn't or wouldn't see how those jobs, and the way they were done, needed to change with the times*, and made life as difficult as they could for the managers who had responsibility for change.



Quite. 1 years experience, repeated 30 or 40 times, is not the same as 30 or 40 years experience.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

newfhouse said:


> I suspect we’ve all felt sometimes that the only way to make a point is to let the decision maker feel _some_ consequences, but it’s a dangerous game to play. I’d try to avoid employing anyone that deliberately cost me or my firm large sums of money, whatever their self justification.



The bloke had it coming, and my employer deserved the hit for promoting such a complete dick to any position of management authority. Bad judgement call on their part, they paid for it afterwards.. More than a dozen of us just decided to let him hang himself and then covered our own backsides by doing everything strictly by the book ourselves. Effectively it was a work to rule. every problem encountered just caused more delays, we didn't look for solutions. As a result, we were fireproof, he wasn't.

He was the worst type of poacher turned gamekeeper, borderline psychopath type who did his utmost to snoop on people and try to get them on disciplinary offences to show what an on-the-ball manager he was. He soon pissed off enough staff that someone he crossed actually tracked him one day, and arranged for his own private car, not his company one, to have it's paintwork trashed. He never said a word about it though, but probably suspected (wrongly) I was one of those behind it because I never made any secret of what I thought of him personally and his style of management. After only four months of enduring this idiot, he got "reorganised" into another job a hundred miles away. His career never went anywhere, as his reputation for antagonising staff and screwing up team performance followed him. He also subsequently cost my employer an out of court settlement to make an employment related legal case go away quietly.....


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## Rusty Nails (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The bloke had it coming, and my employer deserved the hit for promoting such a complete dick to any position of management authority. Bad judgement call on their part, they paid for it afterwards.. More than a dozen of us just decided to let him hang himself and then covered our own backsides by doing everything strictly by the book ourselves. Effectively it was a work to rule. every problem encountered just caused more delays, we didn't look for solutions. As a result, we were fireproof, he wasn't.
> 
> He was the worst type of poacher turned gamekeeper, borderline psychopath type who did his utmost to snoop on people and try to get them on disciplinary offences to show what an on-the-ball manager he was. He soon pissed off enough staff that someone he crossed actually tracked him one day, and arranged for his own private car, not his company one, to have it's paintwork trashed. He never said a word about it though, but probably suspected (wrongly) I was one of those behind it because I never made any secret of what I thought of him personally and his style of management. After only four months of enduring this idiot, he got "reorganised" into another job a hundred miles away. His career never went anywhere, as his reputation for antagonising staff and screwing up team performance followed him. He also subsequently cost my employer an out of court settlement to make an employment related legal case go away quietly.....



Sounds like a company full of dickheads to me, including top management who must have been worried enough about the way they went about things that they paid up rather than go to an employment tribunal.

I suspect that you and your colleagues just want a boss who's a bit of a mate, knows his place, and leaves you alone to do things your way, without challenge.

How long did you say you have been working there?


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## cisamcgu (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I've got no intention of being told what I can or can't do for two weeks by some medically unqualified call centre drone employed by the likes of Serco. They can go and do one as far as I'm concerned. If I have actual virus symptoms I'll stay away from others until they disappear. If I don't get any symptoms I won't be isolating and I won't be playing the game by making myself traceable in the first place.


Yeah, but that is because you are a ****


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## lane (10 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> It was not aimed at you, sorry it sounded that way I just hate to see all managers get tarred with the same brush by people that could not or will not do the job.



OK thanks. the comment was made when quoting my post so it appeared it was. The point I was making was that while there are without doubt some good managers doing their best to ensure employees are safe from Covid, you don't have to look far to find managers paying lip service and also pressurizing staff not to self isolate. This will quite likely have a detrimental impact on the business in the longer run as overall more employees will be off work. Also some employers appear quite ill informed in terms of what precautions are effective.


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## SkipdiverJohn (10 Oct 2020)

@Rusty Nails, there's always been some rogue management element, probably the case in most organisations, but it grew quite large during the late 90's and 00's. A few of the idiots managed to get high enough up the ladder that they then started promoting more idiots in their own image. Things have improved somewhat again now, as the bully boy style of management is indefensible in PR terms, and increasingly results in litigation. It's getting too risky both financially and reputationally to tolerate too many such characters in any organisation that values it's image. A lot of the dross has seen the writing on the wall and taken payoffs over the last few years, but unfortunately some really good managers whose experience and positive attitude were valuable assets have gone too.
More worryingly, some of the latest management intake are showing signs of turning rogue as their lack of job knowledge means they often fail to perform, then they resort to getting snotty and bossing their people around because they have got senior management on their backs demanding unrealistic results. 
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" as the song goes....
In 35-odd years I've had a few truly outstanding guvnors, a few harmless but unremarkable ones, and a couple of out and out c**** that I would happily take a baseball bat to without a second thought. The really shite ones never stay long in one role, they cause too many problems and soon get shuffled sideways for damage limitation! Unfortunately they very rarely get sacked no matter how useless they are, unless involved in serious financial fraud or found with hardcore porn on their laptops.
As you say, the best managers are the ones who mostly leave people alone, support but don't meddle, and can motivate staff to do their best. My most recently retired one was outstanding both in job terms and on a personal level, and will always get an invite to future works drink ups. Jury's out on my new boss. On the plus side he's not a dick, but time will tell if he can be as good as the retiring guvnor, the bar was set pretty high.


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## Rusty Nails (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> @Rusty Nails, there's always been some rogue management element, probably the case in most organisations, but it grew quite large during the late 90's and 00's. A few of the idiots managed to get high enough up the ladder that they then started promoting more idiots in their own image. Things have improved somewhat again now, as the bully boy style of management is indefensible in PR terms, and increasingly results in litigation. It's getting too risky both financially and reputationally to tolerate too many such characters in any organisation that values it's image. A lot of the dross has seen the writing on the wall and taken payoffs over the last few years, but unfortunately some really good managers whose experience and positive attitude were valuable assets have gone too.
> More worryingly, some of the latest management intake are showing signs of turning rogue as their lack of job knowledge means they often fail to perform, then they resort to getting snotty and bossing their people around because they have got senior management on their backs demanding unrealistic results.
> "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" as the song goes....
> In 35-odd years I've had a few truly outstanding guvnors, a few harmless but unremarkable ones, and a couple of out and out c**** that I would happily take a baseball bat to without a second thought. The really shite ones never stay long in one role, they cause too many problems and soon get shuffled sideways for damage limitation! Unfortunately they very rarely get sacked no matter how useless they are, unless involved in serious financial fraud or found with hardcore porn on their laptops.
> As you say, the best managers are the ones who mostly leave people alone, support but don't meddle, and can motivate staff to do their best. My most recently retired one was outstanding both in job terms and on a personal level, and will always get an invite to future works drink ups. Jury's out on my new boss. On the plus side he's not a dick, but time will tell if he can be as good as the retiring guvnor, the bar was set pretty high.



Sounds like a sound business model for a successful company. Only promote from the shop floor, based on a popular vote from the workers, and don't let managers actually get involved with production. What could go wrong?


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## DRM (10 Oct 2020)

BoldonLad said:


> Quite. 1 years experience, repeated 30 or 40 times, is not the same as 30 or 40 years experience.


I’ve seen this so many times at companies I visit for work, new manager turns up, wreaks havoc for 12 to 18 months, then clears off to start the same process somewhere else.


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## BoldonLad (10 Oct 2020)

DRM said:


> I’ve seen this so many times at companies I visit for work, new manager turns up, wreaks havoc for 12 to 18 months, then clears off to start the same process somewhere else.



Not exactly what was meant, but, never mind


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## Badger_Boom (10 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> It matters a lot in terms of having credibility, earning respect, and having their authority to tell people what to do accepted. Managers who are not well respected will never get anything more than the barest of bare minimums out of the people they are supposedly in charge of. Being a manager is not a profession in it's own right, to be considered legitimate you need not only management skills, but a working knowledge of the type of job that you are supposed to be managing. You can't just parachute into a field you know nothing about, then start to tell the people who *do* know what they are doing, how to do their jobs! Having a degree and a shirt and ties, but no real hands-on experience just doesn't cut the mustard I'm afraid.


Don’t tell the army that.


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## SkipdiverJohn (11 Oct 2020)

Badger_Boom said:


> Don’t tell the army that.



Doesn't matter if it's in uniform or civvy street. People who don't have the respect of their subordinates don't get the best from them, and frequently those subordinates will find a way of stitching them up, or standing back whilst allowing the manager to stitch themselves up. It's a very satisfying thing to witness!


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## screenman (11 Oct 2020)

How come so many experts in management do not become managers?


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## BoldonLad (11 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> How come so many experts in management do not become managers?



Pre Corona virus, you could witness it every Saturday in a football stadium near you. Several thousand people who thought they could do a better job than the one who was being substantially paid for actually doing it.


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## alecstilleyedye (11 Oct 2020)

at least il giro d'italia is on...


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## SkipdiverJohn (11 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> How come so many experts in management do not become managers?



Because most sensible people at the senior end of still being "on the tools" take one look at the amount of hours junior managers routinely put in, and also being expected to be available 24/7 for a fixed salary - and they decide they're better off staying hourly paid and doing the odd bit of overtime. £38k, say, for a 38 hour week plus O/T at premium rates is a much better deal than a £40k management salary for a "standard" working week that actually ends up being 60-70 hours. You do the maths who gets the best hourly rate, and who has to put up with the most shite. Hourly paid you can walk away from all the crap at clocking off time and forget about it until your next working day. Junior management in many organisations are just expendable cannon fodder, and largely used as whipping boys by senior management to harass the staff into giving them the performance they expect. The junior manager then ends up on the receiving end of all the staff grievances about all manner of things, mostly ones they have no control over. It's a shoot job, both in terms of actual hourly remuneration and work/life balance.


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## screenman (11 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Because most sensible people at the senior end of still being "on the tools" take one look at the amount of hours junior managers routinely put in, and also being expected to be available 24/7 for a fixed salary - and they decide they're better off staying hourly paid and doing the odd bit of overtime. £38k, say, for a 38 hour week plus O/T at premium rates is a much better deal than a £40k management salary for a "standard" working week that actually ends up being 60-70 hours. You do the maths who gets the best hourly rate, and who has to put up with the most shite. Hourly paid you can walk away from all the crap at clocking off time and forget about it until your next working day. Junior management in many organisations are just expendable cannon fodder, and largely used as whipping boys by senior management to harass the staff into giving them the performance they expect. The junior manager then ends up on the receiving end of all the staff grievances about all manner of things, mostly ones they have no control over. It's a shoot job, both in terms of actual hourly remuneration and work/life balance.



So the idea is too just stay at the bottom throughout life in your opinion.


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## lane (11 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> So the idea is too just stay at the bottom throughout life in your opinion.



No you should what suits you. You run your own businesses which is not for everyone or even most. What @SkipdiverJohn says is true in many organisations where for an extra few grand, of which a chunk goes in tax, you end up on an hour's as required contract, don't have time to take all your holiday and suffer a lot of stress and overall in terms of quality of life it's just not the best option for a lot of people.


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## SkipdiverJohn (11 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> for an extra few grand, of which a chunk goes in tax, you end up on an hour's as required contract, don't have time to take all your holiday and suffer a lot of stress and overall in terms of quality of life it's just not the best option for a lot of people.



When I'm relaxing down the local with a pint in my hand late in the evening, and my phone suddenly goes ping to announce the arrival of a work email or even sometimes a text message, I'm in no doubt whatsoever who is being made a mug of - and it isn't me!.


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## screenman (11 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> When I'm relaxing down the local with a pint in my hand late in the evening, and my phone suddenly goes ping to announce the arrival of a work email or even sometimes a text message, I'm in no doubt whatsoever who is being made a mug of - and it isn't me!.



If everyone had that attitude where would the UK be, mind you next year who knows anyway.


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## screenman (11 Oct 2020)

lane said:


> No you should what suits you. You run your own businesses which is not for everyone or even most. What @SkipdiverJohn says is true in many organisations where for an extra few grand, of which a chunk goes in tax, you end up on an hour's as required contract, don't have time to take all your holiday and suffer a lot of stress and overall in terms of quality of life it's just not the best option for a lot of people.




What gets me then is some guys do not want the job, could not do the job yet are experts on how it should be done, for the sake of their fellow may/women should they not be doing it.


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## Rusty Nails (11 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Doesn't matter if it's in uniform or civvy street. People who don't have the respect of their subordinates don't get the best from them, and frequently those subordinates will find a way of stitching them up, or standing back whilst allowing the manager to stitch themselves up. It's a very satisfying thing to witness!





SkipdiverJohn said:


> Because most sensible people at the senior end of still being "on the tools" take one look at the amount of hours junior managers routinely put in, and also being expected to be available 24/7 for a fixed salary - and they decide they're better off staying hourly paid and doing the odd bit of overtime. £38k, say, for a 38 hour week plus O/T at premium rates is a much better deal than a £40k management salary for a "standard" working week that actually ends up being 60-70 hours. You do the maths who gets the best hourly rate, and who has to put up with the most shite. Hourly paid you can walk away from all the crap at clocking off time and forget about it until your next working day. Junior management in many organisations are just expendable cannon fodder, and largely used as whipping boys by senior management to harass the staff into giving them the performance they expect. The junior manager then ends up on the receiving end of all the staff grievances about all manner of things, mostly ones they have no control over. It's a shoot job, both in terms of actual hourly remuneration and work/life balance.



Your attitude explains a lot about how the UK manufacturing sector has sunk as low as it has compared to the rest of the world, and it's not just down to poor management.

If it was just down to those fine people happy to stay "on the tools" we'd still be using the same tools and methods we had 50 years ago. (given your attitude to modern developments and materials in bikes that would probably suit you)

Managers are entitled to decide and negotiate the standard of work they expect their workforce to deliver and it becomes a problem for the company when people regard that as harassment.

It could be due to poor management, but it is just as likely due to the attitude of the workforce.


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## oldworld (11 Oct 2020)

Before retiring many moons ago i was foreman in a large machine shop. I could set and programme any of the machines and I think this was useful when telling someone to up their game.
We had a new production manager that we'd heard was a whizz kid. I took him for a tour of the workshop and he lost it in my eyes when he stood by a mill and asked' what do you make on this lathe ?'.
He had an MBE and his previous employment was in the electronics industry.
He lasted a couple of years before he was found to be unsuitable.
Next boss was much better, time served engineer with British Aerospace who then took a degree. 
Later he went on to greater things within the group of companies. Nice bloke as well.


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## BoldonLad (11 Oct 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> Your attitude explains a lot about how *the UK manufacturing sector has sunk as low as it has compared to the rest of the world*, and it's not just down to poor management................



Quite:

UK Bicycle industry ...
UK Motor Cycle industry .......
UK Car industry ........
UK Ship Building Industry .......
UK Railway Locomotive and Rolling Stock industry ........
the list goes on

near where I live, there were factories making Heavy Duty Insulators for the Electric Transmission Industry, Turbines for electricity generation, numerous ship building/ship repair yards, they employed tens of thousands of people... all gone now, many of the sites are now covered in housing

We were leaders in all of these fields in the fairly recent past.....


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## SkipdiverJohn (11 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> So the idea is too just stay at the bottom throughout life in your opinion.



What you consider the bottom or top depends whether you think having the word "manager" in your job title confers some superior status or not. For me, it doesn't, as the junior managers aren't true managers anyway. They have very little autonomy or discretion to "manage" anything, they just get their instructions from the seniors and are expected to implement them in a standardised way. 



screenman said:


> If everyone had that attitude where would the UK be, mind you next year who knows anyway.



I'm available to my employer for the hours they are paying me for, and that's the end of it. I'll answer a phone call from a colleague in my time, because I might have info that could help them out, but I'm buggered if I'm going to do any work-related admin outside the hours I get paid. There's a clear demarcation in my life - when I'm being paid, then work gets my attention. After my finish time, it can wait until the next day.



Rusty Nails said:


> Managers are entitled to decide and negotiate the standard of work they expect their workforce to deliver and it becomes a problem for the company when people regard that as harassment.
> 
> It could be due to poor management, but it is just as likely due to the attitude of the workforce.



Work standards are fine by me as I don't cut corners or bodge anything. Managers demanding arbitary quantities of work is another thing altogether. A job takes as long as it takes, not how long some manager, who isn't even capable of doing that task himself, thinks it ought to take.


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## screenman (11 Oct 2020)

Sometimes in life we take one step back to then take two forward, maybe that is what middle managers are doing. I should add I have never been a manager, I do know in my line of business the best sales person seldom makes the best manager and the best technician very seldom makes the best service manager, the step from spanner to pen is a long way for many.


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## Badger_Boom (11 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> ...standing back whilst allowing the manager to stitch themselves up. It's a very satisfying thing to witness!


Respect goes both ways. I wonder where the problem lies if people start with that attitude.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Oct 2020)

Badger_Boom said:


> Respect goes both ways. I wonder where the problem lies if people start with that attitude.



I treat managers as I find them. If they work on a "light touch" basis and don't interfere with the way work gets done, they get a good amount of effort from me.
if they want to interfere and meddle, and try to teach granny to suck eggs, they'll find themselves having to deal with all the problems I would have just sorted out myself if left to do things my way. I won't tolerate being micro-managed, and will be the biggest possible pain in the arse to any manager who tries to operate that sort of regime.


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## C R (12 Oct 2020)

Isn't it ironic how close skippy's character matches the union man caricature so beloved of conservatives?


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## steve292 (12 Oct 2020)

C R said:


> Isn't it ironic how close skippy's character matches the union man caricature so beloved of conservatives?


I was going to say how very British Leyland, but you have put it better.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Oct 2020)

There always has been, and always will be, a place for militancy at work. 
You don't need to use it though when dealing with reasonable managers, but it should always be there held in reserve for putting the idiot ones back in their boxes. 
British Leyland was a classic example of an organisation with poor people management. Some parts of it had very little in the way of industrial relations problems, other bits were virtually at war. You can't attribute bad industrial relations entirely to union militancy, as it doesn't thrive in a vacuum. You need both bad management *and* militant staff in order to get fractious industrial relations.
The rail industry is a case in point, it's management is terrible, and it has a militant workforce.


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## screenman (12 Oct 2020)

steve292 said:


> I was going to say how very British Leyland, but you have put it better.



I was going to say the same.


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## screenman (12 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There always has been, and always will be, a place for militancy at work.
> You don't need to use it though when dealing with reasonable managers, but it should always be there held in reserve for putting the idiot ones back in their boxes.
> British Leyland was a classic example of an organisation with poor people management. Some parts of it had very little in the way of industrial relations problems, other bits were virtually at war. You can't attribute bad industrial relations entirely to union militancy, as it doesn't thrive in a vacuum. You need both bad management *and* militant staff in order to get fractious industrial relations.
> The rail industry is a case in point, it's management is terrible, and it has a militant workforce.



My late father was a TGWU shop steward for many years, he could stand any manager good or bad.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Oct 2020)

Could or couldn't stand?


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## Rusty Nails (12 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> There always has been, and always will be, a place for militancy at work.
> You don't need to use it though when dealing with reasonable managers, but it should always be there held in reserve for putting the idiot ones back in their boxes.
> British Leyland was a classic example of an organisation with poor people management. Some parts of it had very little in the way of industrial relations problems, other bits were virtually at war. You can't attribute bad industrial relations entirely to union militancy, as it doesn't thrive in a vacuum. You need both bad management *and* militant staff in order to get fractious industrial relations.
> The rail industry is a case in point, it's management is terrible, and it has a militant workforce.



The problem is that too often it is idiot, complacent workers who appear to want to decide if a manager is reasonable or not, based usually on how much they are left alone.

No organisation exists to give its employees an easy job for life.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Oct 2020)

Rusty Nails said:


> The problem is that too often it is idiot, complacent workers who appear to want to decide if a manager is reasonable or not, based usually on how much they are left alone.



In the workplace, people get judged by their peers, and if someone goes around rubbing people up the wrong way, they will inevitably cause a reaction. So long as things are running smoothly, I fully expect to be left alone. That's the way it works, keep off the staffs back and the job gets done. Decide to be a pain in the arse and we can easily make things grind to a halt!


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## steve292 (12 Oct 2020)

@SkipdiverJohn May I ask are you in an Union?


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Oct 2020)

Yep, have been a union member all my working life. Can't stand all the PC crap that goes with Unions and the Left in general these days, but have still always believed in the principle of union membership.


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## shep (12 Oct 2020)

Surely Managerial interaction has a lot to do with the sector/workplace in question?

I assume from your name you drive a skip wagon for a living? 

That surely would have a different level of involvement from Management from what I do, Telecom Rigger/Engineer, where we are completely autonomous and pretty much left alone to carry on with our work.

Managers call US for advice due to them not always having the skills or experience that people in the field have, I'll answer my phone to colleagues to give advice and I also call them out of hours.

Obviously we can turn our phones off but we also have a call out rota so get used to taking work calls, militancy is all well and good and I realise some workplaces will still have a bullying mentality but I've been in work for almost 40yrs and really think the vast majority of places are ok.

Depends what sort of people you know I guess and what jobs they have, we're relatively specialised I guess so maybe not talked down to that much.


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## Rusty Nails (12 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> In the workplace, people get judged by their peers, and if someone goes around rubbing people up the wrong way, they will inevitably cause a reaction. So long as things are running smoothly, I fully expect to be left alone. That's the way it works, keep off the staffs back and the job gets done. Decide to be a pain in the arse and we can easily make things grind to a halt!



The fact that you cannot see what is wrong with the above explains a lot about the problems of manufacturing in the UK compared to more progressive attitudes of other countries. 

The sad thing is you appear to see obstinacy, obstructiveness and a blinkered approach as something to be admired, and probably see the film "I'm all right Jack" as an example of when the UK was an industrial power.


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## Rusty Nails (12 Oct 2020)

shep said:


> Surely Managerial interaction has a lot to do with the sector/workplace in question?
> 
> *I assume from your name you drive a skip wagon for a living?*
> 
> ...



No, he dives in skips looking for rubbish. 

Then recycles it on here!


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## Oldhippy (12 Oct 2020)

Might be being a bit thick here but as a virus it will not recognise any mandate from any government anywhere and will continue doing it's thing regardless. As a population there must be some kind of personal responsibility to themselves or others until such time a cure is found or it burns itself out. I am very anti government and agree that the rules are haphazard at best as they are and stupidly will always put economics before life. It's just the way it is and we as a population continue to think they will somehow fix it. They won't. Therefore, people should look out for each other but many just don't care and don't think it will affect them. I work in social care and have a vulnerable relative and whilst this has been going on I have limited all contact as much as possible for my safety and the people I look after and helped anyone that I could as I am fit and healthy. Everyone has a responsibility for themselves and those around them. We cannot have it all ways and the way things are going we will just have to adapt.


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## Adam4868 (12 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Yep, have been a union member all my working life. Can't stand all the PC crap that goes with Unions and the Left in general these days, but have still always believed in the principle of union membership.


And you voted Tory 😂


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> And you voted Tory 😂


And for Brexit


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## Smokin Joe (12 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> And you voted Tory 😂


As di


vickster said:


> And for Brexit


Which most working class people did. As for voting Tory, how do you think they got so many seats in the traditional Labour areas of the North?


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## straas (12 Oct 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> As di
> 
> Which most working class people did. As for voting Tory, how do you think they got so many seats in the traditional Labour areas of the North?



Mostly with an anti immigrant rhetoric.


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## Adam4868 (12 Oct 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> As di
> 
> Which most working class people did. As for voting Tory, how do you think they got so many seats in the traditional Labour areas of the North?


With lies ?


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## roubaixtuesday (12 Oct 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> Which most working class people did.



Often stated, but doesn't appear actually to be true.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/brexit-and-the-squeezed-middle/


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## screenman (12 Oct 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Could or couldn't stand?



Could not.


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> With lies ?


And the Labour party hardly doing themselves any favours especially on the Brexit question


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

Smokin Joe said:


> As di
> 
> Which most working class people did. As for voting Tory, how do you think they got so many seats in the traditional Labour areas of the North?


It just seems ironic that Trade Unionists claiming to be all for workers' rights would vote Brexit?


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## Adam4868 (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> And the Labour party hardly doing themselves any favours especially on the Brexit question


I never mentioned Brexit though..


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> I never mentioned Brexit though..


Indeed, but I believe it may have been a key topic that perhaps caused a shift in voting patterns in the north as @Smokin Joe mentioned and you responded to. Perhaps few porkies may have been told about Brexit by the Government


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## Oldhippy (12 Oct 2020)

A few! The whole thing was crazy! Pandering to those who seem to think we still rule the waves and have a colonial empire. Utter madness!


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## Adam4868 (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> Indeed, but I believe it may have been a key topic that perhaps caused a shift in voting patterns in the north as @Smokin Joe mentioned and you responded to. Perhaps few porkies may have been told about Brexit by the Government


A few porkies lol...


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> A few porkies lol...


You said your comment about lies was nothing to do with Brexit though? So I don't quite follow what you were meaning


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## Adam4868 (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> You said your comment about lies was nothing to do with Brexit though? So I don't quite follow what you were meaning


Forget brexit,if you think the worst Johnson and his yes men have done is tell a few porkies I understand.


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

Adam4868 said:


> Forget brexit,if you think the worst Johnson and his yes men have done is tell a few porkies I understand.


I voted neither for Brexit nor the Conservatives 
(then again I'm not in the North nor a former Labour supporter... going back to @Smokin Joe observation)


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## Adam4868 (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> I voted neither for Brexit nor the Conservatives
> (then again I'm not in the North nor a former Labour supporter...)


I never said you did ? But it was you that brought up brexit and Labour wasn't it ?
To think the worse that's happened though is "told a few porkies" has to be seen as a bit of a understatement from me.Were a disaster of a country at the moment..and it's not looking good.


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## screenman (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> It just seems ironic that Trade Unionists claiming to be all for workers' rights would vote Brexit?



Maybe that is because they did not know what they were voting for.


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> Maybe that is because they did not know what they were voting for.


Surely then better to vote for the status quo


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## screenman (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> Surely then better to vote for the status quo



Strange things happened.


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## vickster (12 Oct 2020)

screenman said:


> Strange things happened.


??
If they did not know what they were voting for then why vote for an unknown something...maybe they thought they knew what they were voting for and were misguided


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## screenman (12 Oct 2020)

vickster said:


> ??
> If they did not know what they were voting for then why vote for an unknown something...maybe they thought they knew what they were voting for and were misguided




I agree, strange that people would vote for the unknown and something that will make them worse off.


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## PaulSB (12 Oct 2020)

Oldhippy said:


> Might be being a bit thick here but as a virus it will not recognise any mandate from any government anywhere and will continue doing it's thing regardless. As a population there must be some kind of personal responsibility to themselves or others until such time a cure is found or it burns itself out. I am very anti government and agree that the rules are haphazard at best as they are and stupidly will always put economics before life. It's just the way it is and we as a population continue to think they will somehow fix it. They won't. Therefore, people should look out for each other but many just don't care and don't think it will affect them. I work in social care and have a vulnerable relative and whilst this has been going on I have limited all contact as much as possible for my safety and the people I look after and helped anyone that I could as I am fit and healthy. Everyone has a responsibility for themselves and those around them. We cannot have it all ways and the way things are going we will just have to adapt.


Excellent post. 👏


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## Sharky (20 Oct 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> So, I have been placed into self isolation due to having a 5 min conversation with a guy through his (open) car window, who has now tested positive.
> Now I'm banished to my bedroom away from rest of the household....(holiday has also been ki-boshed this week)
> 
> Question is if I'm isolated, can I still ride alone?
> (I have no symptoms and feel 100%) but they say it could be incubating for up to 2 weeks.


May have already been asked and answered, but too many posts to skim thru.
How did the two weeks go - did you go down with the virus?
Hope you are still 100% OK


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## plastic_cyclist (2 Nov 2020)

Sharky said:


> May have already been asked and answered, but too many posts to skim thru.
> How did the two weeks go - did you go down with the virus?
> Hope you are still 100% OK


I was okay, sat in my room the whole time, wife bringing me in my 3 square meals a day, actually lost a bit of weight as I didn't have the biscuit cupboard to rake through ! Never had one symptom !


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## Tripster (2 Nov 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> I was okay, sat in my room the whole time, wife bringing me in my 3 square meals a day, actually lost a bit of weight as I didn't have the biscuit cupboard to rake through ! Never had one symptom !



In the past 4 weeks I have had 4 Covid tests ranging from Antigen test to full swob so I can keep moving around and working. I have been in Greece, Spain, Italy and of course UK. 
I have a letter that exempts me from isolation periods and another letter that allows me to move during curfews. My company say that I must isolate as everyone else does on returning to UK from high risk countries....unless that is I have another job to go to, in which case carry on regardless 😖


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## Sharky (2 Nov 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> I was okay, sat in my room the whole time, wife bringing me in my 3 square meals a day, actually lost a bit of weight as I didn't have the biscuit cupboard to rake through ! Never had one symptom !


Glad you got through it OK. 
I am dreading the same happening to me. Living with our adult autistic daughter who doesn't understand and can't even wear a face mask.
If one of us gets the virus, then all three of us will.
Keep safe


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## HLaB (2 Nov 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> I was okay, sat in my room the whole time, wife bringing me in my 3 square meals a day, actually lost a bit of weight as I didn't have the biscuit cupboard to rake through ! Never had one symptom !


Glad there was no symptoms and well done for sticking it out. Its half the problem, folk who think they are fine but they are asymptomatic and carry it to folk who aren't so lucky. Chances are I think you never even had it asymptomatically but you did the right thing for all of us


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## livpoksoc (2 Nov 2020)

plastic_cyclist said:


> I was okay, sat in my room the whole time, wife bringing me in my 3 square meals a day, actually lost a bit of weight as I didn't have the biscuit cupboard to rake through ! Never had one symptom !


Fair play. Thankfully no symptoms, but genuinely glad to hear of people actually doing the right thing for the good of the community. Chapeau.


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## fossyant (4 Nov 2020)

Daughter has just had an email from college. Her Art Teacher went for a test yesterday and has tested positive. Why he didn't think about doing that on Monday when he had a full class in close contact ?  Daughter was a bit rosey cheeked earlier. Oh joy.


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## plastic_cyclist (4 Nov 2020)

fossyant said:


> Daughter has just had an email from college. Her Art Teacher went for a test yesterday and has tested positive. Why he didn't think about doing that on Monday when he had a full class in close contact ?  Daughter was a bit rosey cheeked earlier. Oh joy.


Oh man, it's the way of the world I'm afraid, this can happen to anyone, anywhere, anytime. Hope she's okay.


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