# Coach me onto a 400



## Heltor Chasca (19 Jul 2018)

I surprised myself recently by really enjoying Mark Rigby’s ‘A Rough Diamond’ 300. I believe it is one of the easier 300s for us newbies.

I now want to up my game to a 400. I only had about another 80km on the clock to go to bring this ride up to 400. I was planning something next year, but ambitions have got me thinking I might give it a crack late summer, early autumn. I live in the South West (Bristol/Bath region)

With Mark’s permission I could DIY his route from my doorstep to bring it to just above 400km. The first and last bit would be quite flat along the Bristol/Bath Railway path. I am very happy on DIYs. But would you recommend doing a calendar event instead?

Also I am not sure if I would ride straight through the night or catch a few Zeds after midnight assuming I would start at 0600 or earlier. Full sleep system (mat, bivi bag & pillow) or just a bivi bag on the ground? I have done two complete night rides of about 150km.

What extra kit over and above the usual for a 200-300 would you advise?

I am taking any advice seriously after hearing one of the gnarly, experienced riders I know say something like, ‘300s are the best distance as you can enjoy a full day out. 400s are a huge step up as you are starting to dabble with sleep deprivation.’

Thanks for your wisdom as usual.


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## raleighnut (19 Jul 2018)

You'd be easier starting at night, get some miles in whilst it's quiet.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (20 Jul 2018)

A 600 would be "easier" in that you'd get some proper kip


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## Ajax Bay (20 Jul 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I now want to up my game to a 400. . . . I was planning something next year, but ambitions have got me thinking I might give it a crack late summer, early autumn. I live in the South West (Bristol/Bath region)
> I could DIY . . . But would you recommend doing a calendar event instead?
> 
> Also I am not sure if I would ride straight through the night or catch a few Zeds after midnight assuming I would start at 0600 or earlier. Full sleep system (mat, bivi bag & pillow) or just a bivi bag on the ground? I have done two complete night rides of about 150km.
> ...


There are no English 400k calendar events this year so it needs to be a Perm or DIY.
A 0600 start implies a 0958 latest finish (DIY/Perm). You've done Mark's Rough Diamond in 18 hours (say) so you can plan on averaging 16kph during the second morning.
0600-2330 for 300. Sleep (and if you choose a night which is forecast to be warm, then a mat and bivvibag should be enough, if you can't plan a route which hits 300+ near an understanding friend/relative). 4 hours till pre-dawn (0330 say). Finish off (@16kph/10mph average) the final 100k in 6 and a bit hours. Sorted.
Some people find they need to do more than 300k to make sure they're well and truly tired and will sleep. Typically 600s (eg Kernow and SW, BCM, Wander Wye) are designed to do 350-380k to the sleep stop and riders can get sleep and, if they want, leave 'out of time' which can be clawed back on the second day. As PTP says, counter-intuitively you may find a 600 'easier' - certainly that's been my experience. There are lots of calendar 600s from which to choose.
I'd plan my feeding stops with care, including an 'early morning' one. This may influence route choice.
As for 'extra kit' @Dogtrousers thread you've read has three good kit lists. Really depends if you plan to ride though or try to sleep somewhere (and in what style).


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## Heltor Chasca (20 Jul 2018)

raleighnut said:


> You'd be easier starting at night, get some miles in whilst it's quiet.



I see your logic in this. Having listened to some thoughts bandied around by some PBP riders I would be worried about messing with my natural body clock. Some who had done the ride more than once, found the late night start tough despite having a longer time limit. When they took the early morning slot, they found the ride easier despite less time for the event. 

That said. I didn’t feel too rough on a couple of night rides I did starting at 22:00 so I may seriously consider your suggestion.


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## Heltor Chasca (20 Jul 2018)

Pro Tour Punditry said:


> A 600 would be "easier" in that you'd get some proper kip



Thanks. I like this. How would you recommend splitting the ride. 350/250?


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## Heltor Chasca (20 Jul 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> There are no English 400k calendar events this year so it needs to be a Perm or DIY.
> A 0600 start implies a 0958 latest finish (DIY/Perm). You've done Mark's Rough Diamond in 18 hours (say) so you can plan on averaging 16kph during the second morning.
> 0600-2330 for 300. Sleep (and if you choose a night which is forecast to be warm, then a mat and bivvibag should be enough, if you can't plan a route which hits 300+ near an understanding friend/relative). 4 hours till pre-dawn (0330 say). Finish off (@16kph/10mph average) the final 100k in 6 and a bit hours. Sorted.
> Some people find they need to do more than 300k to make sure they're well and truly tired and will sleep. Typically 600s (eg Kernow and SW, BCM, Wander Wye) are designed to do 350-380k to the sleep stop and riders can get sleep and, if they want, leave 'out of time' which can be clawed back on the second day. As PTP says, counter-intuitively you may find a 600 'easier' - certainly that's been my experience. There are lots of calendar 600s from which to choose.
> ...



Thank you. This is really insightful. I think I finished Mark's 300 in about 16 hours, but I believe it is a quick route. I am a plodder. I guess ramping things up to a 600 is easier time wise, but it’s whether or not I have the fuel/strength in my legs for that distance. That would be my worry.


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## Ajax Bay (20 Jul 2018)

Heltor Chasca said:


> How would you recommend splitting the ride. 350/250?


I've split 600s a variety of ways: eg 375-236, 350-250, 290-320, 310-300.
For a DIY the split would, for me, be driven by where I planned my sleep stop and what time I needed to arrive (YH/friend) and then work back to a start time. You do need to be properly tired and also consider eating (eg fish and chips or whatever) an hour or so before arriving at sleep stop (reduces faffing and body can sleep rather than digest (early stage stomach part)).
Considering a Perm 600 shortly (Exeter) and your request for advice has helped my planning for that - thank you.


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## Spartak (26 Jul 2018)

Avalon Sunrise...?

Used to start at 22:00 ish on a Friday night from somewhere on the Somerset/Devon border. 

Great ride....


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## Ajax Bay (26 Jul 2018)

Spartak said:


> Avalon Sunrise...?


Missed it this year, I'm afraid. Normally the weekend closest to the summer solstice, starting from the Half Moon pub, Clayhidon, on the southern slopes of the Blackdown Hills. http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/avalon
https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/the-first-avalon-sunrise/
I expect the organiser, on request, would be content for you to DIY it (starting it where it comes closer to you: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27858392 )


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Jul 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> Missed it this year, I'm afraid. Normally the weekend closest to the summer solstice, starting from the Half Moon pub, Clayhidon, on the southern slopes of the Blackdown Hills. http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/avalon
> https://audaxing.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/the-first-avalon-sunrise/
> I expect the organiser, on request, would be content for you to DIY it (starting it where it comes closer to you: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/27858392 )



That is a fantastic route. I think that is a keeper. Thank you very much. I’ll find out the organiser details and ask when I am ready to ride.


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## Ajax Bay (26 Jul 2018)

If you haven't read Marcus's pieces you ought to:
http://www.marcusjb.com/
Lots of good advice and sound ideas in consumable packages.


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Jul 2018)

Ajax Bay said:


> If you haven't read Marcus's pieces you ought to:
> http://www.marcusjb.com/
> Lots of good advice and sound ideas in consumable packages.



Thanks Coach  This is great.


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## Ming the Merciless (26 Jul 2018)

You did the 300 in 16 hours. If you repeated that on a 400, you could have 4 hours sleep, then spend 7 hours doing the last 100km. So do not beliebe you cannot sleep on a 400. It is just that most of us choose not to. Usually as when we get sleepy we are less than 100km from the finish and choose to keep riding.

In terms of extra gear, arm and leg warmers, plus a lightweight gilet for night time. Throw in a head torch in case of mechanicals when dark. You do not need any extra above that. If sleepy then church lynch gates or porches, barns, outbuildings, bus shelters, forest floors, fields will do the job. 24 hour services as well if near enough route.


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## Ian H (26 Jul 2018)

I admit to being surprised at how quickly I finished my Back to the Smoke 400, starting at noon. I was expecting a slow-down for several hours around dawn, but 20mins snooze on a bench sorted any tiredness. A good night's sleep and a lie-in beforehand must have helped.


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Jul 2018)

YukonBoy said:


> You did the 300 in 16 hours. If you repeated that on a 400, you could have 4 hours sleep, then spend 7 hours doing the last 100km. So do not beliebe you cannot sleep on a 400. It is just that most of us choose not to. Usually as when we get sleepy we are less than 100km from the finish and choose to keep riding.
> 
> In terms of extra gear, arm and leg warmers, plus a lightweight gilet for night time. Throw in a head torch in case of mechanicals when dark. You do not need any extra above that. If sleepy then church lynch gates or porches, barns, outbuildings, bus shelters, forest floors, fields will do the job. 24 hour services as well if near enough route.



Valuable. Thank you. I think I’ll be up for a DIY 400 before the summer is out.


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## Heltor Chasca (26 Jul 2018)

Ian H said:


> I admit to being surprised at how quickly I finished my Back to the Smoke 400, starting at noon. I was expecting a slow-down for several hours around dawn, but 20mins snooze on a bench sorted any tiredness. A good night's sleep and a lie-in beforehand must have helped.



Perfect. I’m not a great sleeper and I get huge benefits from these little cat naps. I don’t tend to feel groggy afterwards so this could be all I need.


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Feb 2019)

Motivation needed to up my game a bit. I seem to have stalled on my badge collecting. This year I’ll shoot for a RRTY, 400, maybe a 600 and possibly some others. But we shall see. I believe @Ian H has some special trophies to aim for in years to come  Popped into the local Proper Job and picked up some frames to put my collection in. The 3 Grimpeur medals (top right bronze, silver and gold) are my favourite. Here’s a first draft:


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## Spartak (16 Feb 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Motivation needed to up my game a bit. I seem to have stalled on my badge collecting. This year I’ll shoot for a RRTY, 400, maybe a 600 and possibly some others. But we shall see. I believe @Ian H has some special trophies to aim for in years to come  Popped into the local Proper Job and picked up some frames to put my collection in. The 3 Grimpeur medals (top right bronze, silver and gold) are my favourite. Here’s a first draft:
> 
> View attachment 452760



Wish I was that motivated to put my badges in frames.... 

Bravo @Heltor Chasca

Is the Avalon 400 running this year ?

Great way to conquer a 400.....


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## Ajax Bay (16 Feb 2019)

Spartak said:


> Is the Avalon 400 running this year ?


Certainly is, and Jamie would no doubt welcome any and all entries.
http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/19-401/
It's one of the last (2) PBP 400 qualifiers, mind.
This is one of two Exeter Wheelers 400s (the other is 'Back to the Smoke' the previous weekend).
"407km cycling event starting from Clayhidon, near Taunton. Controls at Tiverton, Minehead, Bridgwater, Frome, Chepstow, Wotton Under Edge and Frome.
"Ride the Exe Valley and A39 by night, see the dawn in Somerset, use the Bath tunnels and the Bristol-Bath cyclepath, cross the Severn Bridge and return south
"Event start/finish is at a great pub with free camping in a field. The Minehead control in the middle of the night has coffee. Food at the finish is included. Seeing the actual sunrise at Glastonbury depends on moving speed and weather conditions."


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## fossala (16 Feb 2019)

@Heltor Chasca 
You looked at the Paddington Express 400? Doubt you could get an easier 400k that starts in the SW.
https://audax.uk/event-details?eventId=7400


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Feb 2019)

fossala said:


> @Heltor Chasca
> You looked at the Paddington Express 400? Doubt you could get an easier 400k that starts in the SW.
> https://audax.uk/event-details?eventId=7400



I have indeed. That’s been sitting on my AUK calendar for ages. Have a look at the sister event, ‘The Steam Express’. Good looking events.

I have done two sets of back to back 200s as a litmus. One easy and one tough. I think I have what it takes. I’m hoping to squeeze in a 300 beforehand too.


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## fossala (16 Feb 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> I have indeed. That’s been sitting on my AUK calendar for ages. Have a look at the sister event, ‘The Steam Express’. Good looking events.
> 
> I have done two sets of back to back 200s as a litmus. One easy and be tough. I think I have what it takes. I’m hoping to squeeze in a 300 beforehand too.


I'm booked into both. The 400k should be easy after doing Bill's Easton's Connection 300k 4 weeks earlier.


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Feb 2019)

fossala said:


> I'm booked into both. The 400k should be easy after doing Bill's Easton's Connection 300k 4 weeks earlier.



Yes, that Bill’s Easton Connection is in my calendar too and I have given it some serious thought. The elevation is eye watering, but it has a lot of ground in my home territory so I hope that helps me psychologically.


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## fossala (16 Feb 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> Yes, that Bill’s Easton Connection is in my calendar too and I have given it some serious thought. The elevation is eye watering, but it has a lot of ground in my home territory so I hope that helps me psychologically.


I'm tackling it on my fixed. I figure if I can push myself through Bill's Easton Connection, the 400 should be easy. Then with only one ride left for my Fixed SR my motivation to complete the 600 will be high. That's the plan anyway...


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Feb 2019)

fossala said:


> I'm tackling it on my fixed. I figure if I can push myself through Bill's Easton Connection, the 400 should be easy. Then with only one ride left for my Fixed SR my motivation to complete the 600 will be high. That's the plan anyway...



Deep respect!


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## Ming the Merciless (16 Feb 2019)

Thought about joining an Easter a Arrow team for your 400?


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## Heltor Chasca (16 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Thought about joining an Easter a Arrow team for your 400?



Not yet! Last year’s event done by some members of my club sounded incredibly hard. A few of the toughest individuals scratched due to the rough weather. I need to do some more riding with them all first.


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## Ajax Bay (26 Feb 2019)

YukonBoy said:


> Thought about joining an Easter a Arrow team for your 400?


I know the Easter Arrow ride is not a PBP qualifier but it is BRM. If the team achieves more than 400, can it be used by an individual in that team as the 400 in an AUK SR?


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## Ming the Merciless (26 Feb 2019)

Ajax Bay said:


> I know the Easter Arrow ride is not a PBP qualifier but it is BRM. If the team achieves more than 400, can it be used by an individual in that team as the 400 in an AUK SR?



Yes for AUK SR if min distance is 400 or more. Not so sure about it qualifying for a ACP SR though, I suspect not. I always treat the Easter Arrow as the team event it is, and do a seperate 400 later in the year.


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