# Riding Two Abreast



## Baggy (13 Jul 2008)

Am having a bit of a debate on another forum (a cat forum!!) about riding two abreast and have just been told by someone who claims to be a driving instructor that riding two abreast or more is illegal.

Er...

From the Highway Code, rule 53 and 66:
-never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends.

Please can someone confirm that I'm right, and am not just having a moment of illiteracy or stupidity.

Was it one of the rules that was proposed to be changed but was overruled?


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## mickle (13 Jul 2008)

I once had an irate driver try to run me off the road because I had over taken another cyclist and had therefore, according to her understanding of the Highway Code, broken the law by riding two abreast. I beat the roof of her car with her radio aerial to punctuate my response.


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## Willow (13 Jul 2008)

unfortunately there are a lot of cyclists round the surrey hills that ride 3 or so abreast making it impossible for any cars to pass. There are many selfish car drivers out there but at the weekends there are an equal number of cyclists who should also be less selfish. let them past quickly and have the road to yourself again is my view.


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## domd1979 (13 Jul 2008)

During Bike Week, I went out on a lunch time ride with some people from work. Coming back through town I was riding 2 abreast (not a particularly busy bit of road), and some pair of plonkers in an Astra came past with dozy cow in the passenger seat yelling "single file" at me. I have to confess my response was a fairly succinct "eff off".






mickle said:


> I once had an irate driver try to run me off the road because I had over taken another cyclist and had therefore, according to her understanding of the Highway Code, broken the law by riding two abreast. I beat the roof of her car with her radio aerial to punctuate my response.


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## Amanda P (13 Jul 2008)

Baggy, you're right. It clearly says "never ride more than two abreast". 

Two points: most people remember the "two abreast" bit, but forget that it says never "more than two abreast". And this is an advisory point, not a legal one. Where the law requires or forbids an action, the Highway Code says "you must" or "you must not". It doesn't use that wording here.

And that's where judgement comes in. If there are more than four or five bikes moving together, is it harder for a driver to overtake them if they're strung out one behind the other, or if they're bunched up three abreast? Quite possibly the former.

It may be frustrating for a driver, but after all, a driver has no more right to the road than the cyclists - and it would be equally frustrating for them to have to keep slowing or stopping to let traffic past. On a busy road, they might never be able to join the traffic stream again.


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## simon l& and a half (14 Jul 2008)

suzi said:


> unfortunately there are a lot of cyclists round the surrey hills that ride 3 or so abreast making it impossible for any cars to pass. There are many selfish car drivers out there but at the weekends there are an equal number of cyclists who should also be less selfish. let them past quickly and have the road to yourself again is my view.



it's not as simple as that. Let the buggers past a group at the wrong point, and the next thing you know you're in the ditch as they cut in halfway past. Spread out and they jink in and out like demented bedbugs. Groups have to manage the traffic. It takes skill and willpower, but the alternative is getting run over. The roads in the Surrey Hills are not designed to take the behemoths that Surrey drivers favour - take a look at the Shere to Ewhurst Road, or the road that goes to Peaslake, or White Downs. Time and time again I've been overtaken on an uphill only to be stopped as the twunt in the 4x4 waits for a car to come the other way. Time and time I've had to hold off drivers on an uphill to Chipstead because there is absolutely no room for them to overtake safely.

It's all a bit basic. Drivers in Surrey are, by and large, poor. 

Oh - and Mrs L and I were reproved for stopping two abreast at a traffic light on the A23 on Sunday. We single out when on the move, but, for the duration of a red light, we rekindle that love n' marriage thing. Unhappily for the driver, Mrs L has a way with words......


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## Cab (14 Jul 2008)

Its actually quite common for us to get hassle from drivers when my better half and I are cycling together. Generally, I'll be in a decent primary position with her in a tight secondary, and the total amount of road space we're claiming is the same as it would be if I was out on my own. But if there are two of us, then the short ride to and from town can be guaranteed to raise the hackles of a least _someone_. On Saturday, it was a bus driver who just HAD to sound his horn at us, because he only had the whole other side of the quiet road we were on to overtake... 

The thing is, if they sound their horn, give you lip or whatever, just accept that you've won; they've seen you, they had to make room for you. Both of you. If they try to make a conversation about it, simply tell then they're wrong, tell them to look in the highway code. If they want to give you more lip over it, ignore them.


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## Willow (14 Jul 2008)

I appreciate what you are saying and boy I know some of the surrey drivers leave a lot to be desired particularly on those narrow twisty road. The point is we all want to arrive at our destination alive and therefore a bit of give and take is required from all parties. Unfortunately of course not everyone sees it that way and in those circumstances it doesn't matter whose fault it might be the cyclist will be the one that comes off worse. So my approach to driving and cycling is to be the one that has the give rather than the take. My children are always asking me why it is always me that gives way and no one ever waits for me.


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## dodgy (14 Jul 2008)

The highway code says you should overtake cyclists as you would a car, give them the same amount of room. Given that fact, motorists should have no more trouble overtaking riders 2 abreast than they would a parked car. But you don't get time to debate the issue with most motorists, because you've presented so little a hazard to them that they're able to roar off into the distance until they encounter the next obstacle to their progress - like a traffic light for instance.
I honestly think many motorists completely disengage brain when they get behind the wheel.
Dave.


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## Amanda P (14 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> the short ride to and from town can be guaranteed to raise the hackles of a least _someone_



Mrs Uncle Phil and I get this too.

The thing is, the ones whose hackles are raised, and who express irritation (usually with the horn) are invariably the ones who blast past without being delayed at all. Those who are forced to slow down for a bit never seem to be bothered.


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## Baggy (14 Jul 2008)

Thanks Uncle Phil.

Slightly worrying that a driving instructor is getting the Highway Code wrong...


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## BentMikey (14 Jul 2008)

It's funny how driving instructors are responsible for such ignorance and bad driving sometimes, when they are supposed to be the experts. I guess it goes to show how we're all human.


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## wafflycat (14 Jul 2008)

Baggy said:


> Thanks Uncle Phil.
> 
> Slightly worrying that a driving instructor is getting the Highway Code wrong...



Doesn't surprise me at all.. Over on Usenet, on uk.rec.cycling some time ago, there was someone posting who said he/she was a driving instructor who started posting about how cyclists *must* use cycle farcilities... the poster was clearly informed of the error of their train of thought. 

Today I was driving around Oxford. On the ring road (dual carriageway bit) I was on the inside lane driving at just below the speed limit and I had a driving instructor (Red) virtually sitting on my car exhaust pipe. If I had to do an emergency stop, he'd have gone straight into the back of me he was so close. About half-an-hour later, I saw him again - giving a driving lesson to some poor sod who was undoubtedly being instructed in the ways of Mr Toad.

Saddened but not surprised.


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## Cab (15 Jul 2008)

Baggy said:


> Thanks Uncle Phil.
> 
> Slightly worrying that a driving instructor is getting the Highway Code wrong...



Every day occurrence. They don't seem any better than anyone else.


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## BentMikey (21 Jul 2008)

wafflycat said:


> Today I was driving around Oxford. On the ring road (dual carriageway bit) I was on the inside lane driving at just below the speed limit and I had a driving instructor (Red) virtually sitting on my car exhaust pipe. If I had to do an emergency stop, he'd have gone straight into the back of me he was so close. About half-an-hour later, I saw him again - giving a driving lesson to some poor sod who was undoubtedly being instructed in the ways of Mr Toad.



Hope you did a cunobelin, and "remembered" only the reg. number, and then wrote to all the driving schools including his in the area, describing the poor driving and saying how you could only remember the reg. and not the particular school.


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## Arch (23 Jul 2008)

Tom and I were once riding two abreast up a hill, on a pretty wide bit of road in Leicester, about 11pm (well, ok, he was giving me a bit of a push actually) We were hooted by a car that came past -although there was loads of room to pass. When it stopped at the next lights, Tom caught up with it and tapped on the window. The driver tried to ignore him until he said with great politeness "you haven't got your lights on!", whereupon the driver hd to try and put his lights on at the same time as simultaneously trying to thank Tom and ignore him out of embarrassment....


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## yenrod (23 Jul 2008)

:Riding Two Abreast 

Obviously the bigger the better !

SORRY - wrong thread!


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## Renard (25 Jul 2008)

Cab said:


> The thing is, if they sound their horn, give you lip or whatever, just accept that you've won; they've seen you, they had to make room for you. Both of you. If they try to make a conversation about it, simply tell then they're wrong, tell them to look in the highway code. If they want to give you more lip over it, ignore them.



This is excellent advice and should be quoted every time someone posts about the grief they have been given in a similar situation.


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## Dave Davenport (25 Jul 2008)

Baggy said:


> Thanks Uncle Phil.
> 
> Slightly worrying that a driving instructor is getting the Highway Code wrong...



One of my neighbours is a driving instructor and he was trying to tell me you weren't allowed to ride two abreast, I told him to check the highway code and he hasn't mentioned it since. Don't know what his pupils pass rates are like.

I was on an audax a while ago and a bloke coming from the other direction was slowing down, sounding his horn and shouting 'single file!!'. He was the middle aged, driving gloves type and looked really angry that we might be obstructing any of his fellow 'Great British motorists' going the same direction as us.


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## Over The Hill (25 Jul 2008)

I agree......

BUT

If I had been riding where the outside cyclist would be I am sure I would be dead by now.

Many many times I have had a car behind me who has not seen me and has sqeezed through between me and the oncoming car (fast A & B Roads).

If I had been in primary at that point I would be under his BMW.

No good being right if you are dead.


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## Amanda P (25 Jul 2008)

Over The Hill said:


> Many many times I have had a car behind me who has not seen me and has sqeezed through between me and the oncoming car (fast A & B Roads).
> 
> If I had been in primary at that point I would be under his BMW.



Well, no, because one of the reasons for being in a primary position is that it makes you more visible. 

So if you had been in primary, the "car"* would have seen you and no squeezing would have occurred. Or so the "CycleCraft" argument goes.

*Actually, the driver is supposed to have something to do with it as well...


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