# Sub 2 hour marathon.



## Beebo (12 Oct 2019)

It’s live on the BBC website now. He has a changing cast of pace makers, water bottles handed by bike and a laser on the ground showing his perfect pace. It won’t be an official record but still an amazing effort. Sponsored by Ineos too. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/athletics/49771509

running 100m in 17 seconds is hard enough, but keeping that up for 26 miles is bonkers.


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## PeteXXX (12 Oct 2019)

That's my average cycling speed...


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## delb0y (12 Oct 2019)

He's running faster than my average cycling speed


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## cyberknight (12 Oct 2019)

sorry started another thread on this , i will delete 
I think it smacks of cheating as the pacemakers are not running the distance so hes getting a draft from fresher athletes .I am not knocking his obvious talent and fitness, determination etc but seems to be bending the rules and should not stand as a true record .


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## Mugshot (12 Oct 2019)

cyberknight said:


> sorry started another thread on this , i will delete
> I think it smacks of cheating as the pacemakers are not running the distance so hes getting a draft from fresher athletes .I am not knocking his obvious talent and fitness, determination etc but seems to be bending the rules and should not stand as a true record .


I didn't think it was going to stand as a record, just the first sub 2 hour marathon.


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## Tail End Charlie (12 Oct 2019)

At school aged 11 was the last time I was timed over 100m and, try as I might, I couldn't get below 17 seconds once. Incredible what he's attempting.


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## vickster (12 Oct 2019)

....and he's barely broken a sweat

Hope they got the course measurements spot on


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## winjim (12 Oct 2019)

cyberknight said:


> sorry started another thread on this , i will delete
> I think it smacks of cheating as the pacemakers are not running the distance so hes getting a draft from fresher athletes .I am not knocking his obvious talent and fitness, determination etc but seems to be bending the rules and should not stand as a true record .


It's not cheating, it's just a different thing. I don't think there's any suggestion that it should stand as an official record, it seems to be just a bit of fun.


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## PeteXXX (12 Oct 2019)

I believe the Guinness Book of Records are accepting it.


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## swansonj (12 Oct 2019)

cyberknight said:


> sorry started another thread on this , i will delete
> I think it smacks of cheating as the pacemakers are not running the distance so hes getting a draft from fresher athletes .I am not knocking his obvious talent and fitness, determination etc but seems to be bending the rules and should not stand as a true record .


Aren't the rules (and therefore what counts as cheating) pretty much arbitrary? Didn't Roger Bannister plan a previous attempt on the four minute mile where his third lap pacer had run the first lap at half speed so it was only their second lap and they were fresher? (That would have been a valid record but Bannister said he was glad he hadn't done it that way). Paula Radcliffe taking advantage of male pacers to set a female record? Cheating or not? And the Bob Graham Round only accepts records if they are set with pacers, who are almost invariably rotated between sections, so a completely different philosophy. People do extraordinary things and the world is better for it - the rules that determine whether a given extraordinary feat is feted in the record books or described as cheating are arbitrary.


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## Beebo (12 Oct 2019)

He’s done it. Well done.


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## cyberknight (12 Oct 2019)

swansonj said:


> Aren't the rules (and therefore what counts as cheating) pretty much arbitrary? Didn't Roger Bannister plan a previous attempt on the four minute mile where his third lap pacer had run the first lap at half speed so it was only their second lap and they were fresher? (That would have been a valid record but Bannister said he was glad he hadn't done it that way). Paula Radcliffe taking advantage of male pacers to set a female record? Cheating or not? And the Bob Graham Round only accepts records if they are set with pacers, who are almost invariably rotated between sections, so a completely different philosophy. People do extraordinary things and the world is better for it - the rules that determine whether a given extraordinary feat is feted in the record books or described as cheating are arbitrary.


Of course we are entitled to our own opinions , mine is that if you need to use pacemakers that are not doing the whole race from start to finish and drafting in an event that is an individual event then for me it isnt a valid record , is like thecycling hour record allowing it .


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## swansonj (12 Oct 2019)

cyberknight said:


> Of course we are entitled to our own opinions , mine is that if you need to use pacemakers that are not doing the whole race from start to finish and drafting in an event that is an individual event then for me it isnt a valid record , is like thecycling hour record allowing it .


Absolutely we are all entitled to our own opinions ... as long as we recognise that our opinions are just that, and there is no definitive rule. You make the point quite nicely: the cycling world hour record does not involve pacing at all, athletics records allow pacing provided the pacer completes the whole course (but with no regard to whether the pacer was running competitively or not), and the fell-running records I alluded to earlier expect the pacers not to complete the whole course.

It seems to me that running a solo marathon with no runners around you has some sort of absolute meaning; doing what was done today and running as fast as you can, making whatever provisions assist you, has some sort of absolute meaning; anything in between, any rules about what pacers can or cannot do, is arbitrary.


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## numbnuts (12 Oct 2019)




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## Grant Fondo (12 Oct 2019)

It totally beggars belief! 100 years ago it was closer to 3 hours. Wow!


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## Ajax Bay (12 Oct 2019)

swansonj said:


> Paula Radcliffe taking advantage of male pacers to set a female record? Cheating or not? And the Bob Graham Round only accepts records if they are set with pacers, who are almost invariably rotated between sections, so a completely different philosophy.


Paula Radcliffe ran the fastest marathon ever by a woman running in competition with other runners in the 2003 London race. Cheating? Wash your mouth out. Who's cheating who?
In the Bob Graham (have you completed it @swansonj ?) those who run alongside are there to assure that each and every summit is visited - they act as 'witnesses' - a criterion the Bob Graham Club require to record the completion (not a 'record'). In my experience there was minimal pacing advantage from those running with us - the benefit was the company. But I'm sure others would appreciate the navigational aid and water/food carrying that company might offer. And there is a safety aspect too, if fell-runners are on the limit of their endurance. Over a 20+ hours endeavour it's the individual who sets their pace, not those acompanying.
My take on the Vienna extravaganza is that it is what it is: a time trial over the marathon distance. I fear that when a runner breaks 2 hours properly (ie in a race) their achievement will be depreciated because of today's media scrum/hyped effort. Think how the world would have received Roger Bannister's 'breakthrough' if some bloke had broken 4 minutes a month or a year earlier, in a time trial with pacemakers jumping in and out.


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## Ajax Bay (12 Oct 2019)

Grant Fondo said:


> 100 years ago it was closer to 3 hours.


Strictly true "closer to 3 hours [than 2]", but actually 2:32!

Hannes Kolehmainen




Finland


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## Drago (12 Oct 2019)

Absolitely astonishing. When I used to run my trainer reckoned I'd be good for a 4 minute mile if i'd wanted to - I never did, and never wore the coveted Sub-4 T shirt - but this is astonishing. Give it time, as now we know it can be done someone will soon do it again bit under racing conditions.


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## Mugshot (12 Oct 2019)

View: https://twitter.com/EliudKipchoge/status/1182934782684123136?s=20


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## Starchivore (12 Oct 2019)

I'm quite keen on running.

I like Kipchoge, and this is a massive achievement. But it's not a new official Marathon record, and with good reason. I think what he managed today should be celebrated but seen within its own context.


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## numbnuts (12 Oct 2019)

The fastest I have ever run is 10 miles in 1 hour 16 minutes


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## Milkfloat (12 Oct 2019)

Ajax Bay said:


> Paula Radcliffe ran the fastest marathon ever by a woman running in competition with other runners in the 2003 London race. Cheating? Wash your mouth out. Who's cheating who?



I don’t see much difference between this attempt and Paula’s. They both ran with dedicated pacers running to an exact time. The only real difference I see is the hydration/feeding.

P.S. No drugs scandal yet, unlike Paula.


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## swansonj (12 Oct 2019)

Ajax Bay said:


> Paula Radcliffe ran the fastest marathon ever by a woman running in competition with other runners in the 2003 London race. Cheating? Wash your mouth out. Who's cheating who?
> In the Bob Graham (have you completed it @swansonj ?) those who run alongside are there to assure that each and every summit is visited - they act as 'witnesses' - a criterion the Bob Graham Club require to record the completion (not a 'record'). In my experience there was minimal pacing advantage from those running with us - the benefit was the company. But I'm sure others would appreciate the navigational aid and water/food carrying that company might offer. And there is a safety aspect too, if fell-runners are on the limit of their endurance. Over a 20+ hours endeavour it's the individual who sets their pace, not those acompanying.
> My take on the Vienna extravaganza is that it is what it is: a time trial over the marathon distance. I fear that when a runner breaks 2 hours properly (ie in a race) their achievement will be depreciated because of today's media scrum/hyped effort. Think how the world would have received Roger Bannister's 'breakthrough' if some bloke had broken 4 minutes a month or a year earlier, in a time trial with pacemakers jumping in and out.


I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying and clearly failing to convey . My point is that _none_ of these achievements - Roger Bannister, Paula Radcliffe, Eliud Kipchoge - are cheating, because any set of rules that specifies what a pacer can or cannot do is arbitrary. It's not me that's called either Radcliffe's or Kipchoge's stupendous achievements "cheating", though others (not necessarily on here) have done so about both. Personally, I wouldn't have used your phraseology "when a runner breaks 2 hours properly (ie in a race)" because that implies there is something improper about his breaking two hours today.


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## Phaeton (12 Oct 2019)

Well I think it is cheating, he should have been made to run back the other way & take an average of the two, just like any land speed record


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## Salad Dodger (12 Oct 2019)

Sorry, but it doesn't impress me, until it's done in an actual race, with no laser pointing out "ideal" pace.
Of course, there could be pacemakers employed in an actual race, but it's not the artificial event that has been created here.


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## swansonj (12 Oct 2019)

Salad Dodger said:


> Sorry, but it doesn't impress me, until it's done in an actual race, with no laser pointing out "ideal" pace.
> Of course, there could be pacemakers employed in an actual race, but it's not the artificial event that has been created here.


So what do you think about the cycling hour record?


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## Starchivore (12 Oct 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> I don’t see much difference between this attempt and Paula’s. They both ran with dedicated pacers running to an exact time. The only real difference I see is the hydration/feeding.
> 
> P.S. No drugs scandal yet, unlike Paula.



No, I think this is very different to Paula's record.

Paula's was in an actual race, and the only reason she got any issues was because men were competing at the same time. For Kipchoge, everything was perfect;y set up for him- he had a number of pacers swapping in and out, especially for him, and they were also clustered round the reduce wind resistance to the absolute minimum- the car also helped with this and provided a laser showing how to stay in that formation. Plus the hydration and feeding differences.


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## midlife (12 Oct 2019)

Just out of curiosity where did the lasers come from, where those two green lines there all through the run?


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## winjim (12 Oct 2019)

Salad Dodger said:


> Sorry, but it doesn't impress me, until it's done in an actual race, with no laser pointing out "ideal" pace.
> Of course, there could be pacemakers employed in an actual race, but it's not the artificial event that has been created here.


This sort of approach is used in actual cycling races though. Knowing the rider's position and time, the team can tell them exactly what reading they should be aiming for on their power meter in order to make the cut. Same principle as having a laser on the road.


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## oldfatfool (12 Oct 2019)

Sure I spotted Dr. Ferrari on the finish line


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## Beebo (12 Oct 2019)

midlife said:


> Just out of curiosity where did the lasers come from, where those two green lines there all through the run?


They were projected from a vehicle in front and where there the whole time. Showing the pace required


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## pjd57 (12 Oct 2019)

Amazing achievement.
All this talk about it not being an official record seems pointless since it's a marathon where you can't really compare one course to another.


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## Milkfloat (13 Oct 2019)

Starchivore said:


> No, I think this is very different to Paula's record.
> 
> Paula's was in an actual race, and the only reason she got any issues was because men were competing at the same time. For Kipchoge, everything was perfect;y set up for him- he had a number of pacers swapping in and out, especially for him, and they were also clustered round the reduce wind resistance to the absolute minimum- the car also helped with this and provided a laser showing how to stay in that formation. Plus the hydration and feeding differences.


Paula had dedicated pacers too, the only reason Kipchoge had to swap his out is because he was too fast for them to keep up.


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## nickyboy (13 Oct 2019)

Salad Dodger said:


> Sorry, but it doesn't impress me, until it's done in an actual race, with no laser pointing out "ideal" pace.
> Of course, there could be pacemakers employed in an actual race, but it's not the artificial event that has been created here.


Whilst I don't think it is comparable to an open race I'd be interested to know what it would take to impress you.
I suspect he is the only person in the world to be able to have done what he did. So, in that context, impressive


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## Heltor Chasca (13 Oct 2019)

He would have done it quicker if it wasn’t for that belching, polluting car in front of him. Why do cars have to be part of this at all. It sucks.

Amazing achievement and HUGE respect. Pamberi Africa!


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## nickyboy (13 Oct 2019)

Heltor Chasca said:


> He would have done it quicker if it wasn’t for that belching, polluting car in front of him. Why do cars have to be part of this at all. It sucks.
> 
> Amazing achievement and HUGE respect. Pamberi Africa!


It was an EV


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## Heltor Chasca (13 Oct 2019)

nickyboy said:


> It was an EV



You would have to take away the magic of my rant


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## Levo-Lon (13 Oct 2019)

Super human effort, i cant run up the road


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## Kempstonian (13 Oct 2019)

It seems to me that they just wanted to see if the human body was capable of running a marathon in under two hours. Now they know it is. One day somebody WILL do it in a normal race - but that day may be some time away yet.

The reason official records have to be set under specific rules is because its quite important that there's a level playing field (as far as possible) so the efforts are comparable. It has to be the same for everybody. There used to be a big fuss about some records being set at altitude but now its easy for athletes & cyclists to both train and compete at altitude. The facilities are there and getting to these places has become easier.

I don't really like pacemakers, but if there are pacemakers for an athlete there's nothing to stop other athletes taking advantage of them too. All they have to do is keep up!


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## Milzy (13 Oct 2019)

https://www.tri247.com/triathlon-news/elite/kona-2019-pro-men-report

Everyone going on about that sub 2 marathon that’s not an official race. 
Jan Frodeno is such a far more amazing achievement.


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## nickyboy (13 Oct 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> It seems to me that they just wanted to see if the human body was capable of running a marathon in under two hours. Now they know it is. One day somebody WILL do it in a normal race - but that day may be some time away yet.
> 
> The reason official records have to be set under specific rules is because its quite important that there's a level playing field (as far as possible) so the efforts are comparable. It has to be the same for everybody. There used to be a big fuss about some records being set at altitude but now its easy for athletes & cyclists to both train and compete at altitude. The facilities are there and getting to these places has become easier.
> 
> I don't really like pacemakers, but if there are pacemakers for an athlete there's nothing to stop other athletes taking advantage of them too. All they have to do is keep up!


Apparently for a race to be a valid marathon for record purposes the finish must be no further than 13 miles from the start. I think it would be pretty easy to set up a valid course that would have a significant tailwind advantage. At the speed these guys run, wind resistance must be a major component. You could even do the headwind bits in amongst tall buildings to mitigate the effect


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## Kempstonian (13 Oct 2019)

Some marathon facts:

American Larry Macon holds the record for the most marathons run in a year. Between 1 December 2012 and 30 November 2013 he ran 239. I don't think any were under 2 hours!
btw Larry was 69 years old.
It was the fourth time he had broken that record, running 6,261.8 in a 12 month period. In 2017 (when he was 72) he was officially the first American to run 2000 marathons.
---------------
Stefaan Engels (born 7 April 1961, Ghent, Belgium), also known as "*marathon* man", is a Belgian marathoner and triathlete, the first man to run the *marathon* distance 365 consecutive times in a single year. He also holds the record *for the* most Ironman Triathlons in a year with 20 over 2007 and 2008. 
---------------
Ricardo Abad Martínez (Tafalla, January 8, 1971) is a Spanish ultrarunner. He holds the world *record for consecutive marathons* run on *consecutive* days, 607. He is famous for executing the project "500 *marathons* in 500 days", in which he completed 500 *marathons* in 500 *consecutive* days. 
----------------
From October 12-15, 2005, Dean Karnazes ran 350 miles across Northern California *without stopping*. He didn't *stop* to sleep or to eat, or – in the most stupefying accomplishment of all – he did not even slow down to sample a Sonoma Valley chilled chardonnay. All told, he ran for 80 hours, 44 minutes *without a break*. 
-----------------
Mind boggling, isn't it?


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## Beebo (13 Oct 2019)

nickyboy said:


> Apparently for a race to be a valid marathon for record purposes the finish must be no further than 13 miles from the start. I think it would be pretty easy to set up a valid course that would have a significant tailwind advantage. At the speed these guys run, wind resistance must be a major component. You could even do the headwind bits in amongst tall buildings to mitigate the effect


There is also a maximum elevation drop to ensure they aren’t just running down hill. 
Parameters in athletics are not a new thing, wind speed is important in sprint races and long jump. Records don’t count if the tail wind is too high.


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## Flakey (13 Oct 2019)

nickyboy said:


> Apparently for a race to be a valid marathon for record purposes the finish must be no further than 13 miles from the start. I think it would be pretty easy to set up a valid course that would have a significant tailwind advantage. At the speed these guys run, wind resistance must be a major component. You could even do the headwind bits in amongst tall buildings to mitigate the effect


Yup. Thats one of the reasons that the Baxters Loch Ness marathon will never "count" if a record were achieved. Its pretty much a 24 mile straight line (before doubling back for the last couple of miles). It's also got too large an overall decent for it to count (despite a nasty climb at 18 mile) AND if your lucky the prevailing wind provides a tail wind for most of it.
But the good thing is times gained at Loch Ness still count towards "good for age" entries for the likes of London.


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## MichaelW2 (13 Oct 2019)

This is like the cycling speed records slipstreaming behind a car. It is a record, it is cycling but it is not a race.
Having broken the 2hr bar, the psychological barrier has been smashed and we may see these times in marathon races.


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## cisamcgu (13 Oct 2019)

Drago said:


> Absolitely astonishing. When I used to run my trainer reckoned I'd be good for a 4 minute mile if i'd wanted to - I never did, and never wore the coveted Sub-4 T shirt - but this is astonishing. Give it time, as now we know it can be done someone will soon do it again bit under racing conditions.


You would have completed a mile with 15 seconds of the fastest person in history ? Really ??????

and, indeed, almost 15 seconds faster than the quickest woman in the world ???


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## Ajax Bay (13 Oct 2019)

Phaeton said:


> he should have been made to run back the other way & take an average of the two


If you take a look at the 26.2 mile time trial route from the weekend, you'll see that the route he ran is essentially that: out and back.


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## Beebo (13 Oct 2019)

Ajax Bay said:


> If you take a look at the 26.2 mile time trial route from the weekend, you'll see that the route he ran is essentially that: out and back.


He ran 4 laps of the route.


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## Ajax Bay (13 Oct 2019)

Out and back, 4 times.


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## winjim (13 Oct 2019)

Women's record gone, under race conditions too.

Brigid Kosgei smashes Paula Radcliffe’s world marathon record by 71 seconds

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...hicago?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard


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## rustybolts (13 Oct 2019)

This achievement is totally amazing , first time his wife ever saw him running a race ! he is humble and appreciated the team and pacers .


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## Dayvo (13 Oct 2019)

Some amazing marathon facts posted above, but these were by 'athletes'. 

What impresses me most (me being a normal kind of person) is the achievement set by Eddie Izzard (almost a normal person, too) and his running of 43 marathons in 51 days.


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## Milzy (13 Oct 2019)

Can anybody explain why the runners need about 8 world class pacers for help? When cyclists do their TT’s they pace themselves. Why can’t they use their running watch.


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## Beebo (13 Oct 2019)

Milzy said:


> Can anybody explain why the runners need about 8 world class pacers for help? When cyclists do their TT’s they pace themselves. Why can’t they use their running watch.


The runners were actually acting as a wind break. They were running in an inverted chevron pattern. So the main guy was drafting.


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## Milkfloat (13 Oct 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> Some marathon facts:
> 
> American Larry Macon holds the record for the most marathons run in a year. Between 1 December 2012 and 30 November 2013 he ran 239. I don't think any were under 2 hours!
> btw Larry was 69 years old.
> ...



Surely the guys in facts 2 and 3 make fact 1 untrue?


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## nickyboy (13 Oct 2019)

cisamcgu said:


> You would have completed a mile with 15 seconds of the fastest person in history ? Really ??????
> 
> and, indeed, almost 15 seconds faster than the quickest woman in the world ???


Plenty of Walter Mitty types around here


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## Kempstonian (14 Oct 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> Surely the guys in facts 2 and 3 make fact 1 untrue?


No, the first guy holds the American record. The other two were international records.

Talking of record breaking marathon runners, I knew this guy when I used to race:
http://richardbird.me.uk/component/content/article/8-local-news/49-marathon-man

He was in one of the Luton cycling clubs in the 1960s, I think it was the Icknield Road Club. He obviously didn't keep up with the cycling because by the time he was 36 he was an overweight heavy smoker. Never having run a marathon before, he set out to break the most marathons in a year record - and he did it, getting himself into the Guinness book of Records. The record was much lower then, but his 71 in a year, travelling all around the world was a tremendous feat.


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## Stephenite (14 Oct 2019)

I wonder who has _eaten_ the most Marathons in a year is...


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## IanSmithCSE (14 Oct 2019)

good morning,



Dayvo said:


> Some amazing marathon facts posted above, but these were by 'athletes'.
> 
> What impresses me most (me being a normal kind of person) is the achievement set by Eddie Izzard (almost a normal person, too) and his running of 43 marathons in 51 days.



Interesting interpretations on how headlines become "truth". :-)

https://www.theguardian.com/culture...umphant-after-running-27-marathons-in-27-days

*He was forced to take an unscheduled rest day on the fifth day of the challenge, which meant he had to complete two marathons on the final day. *

An alternative view at https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7129334 

Arghhh, the Daily Mail https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...7-days-intrepid-comic-s-54-year-old-body.html
*John Brewer, professor of applied sports science at St Mary’s University in London, says Izzard’s technique was to do each race slowly.

‘If he was going to run them competitively, he would have struggled,’ Prof Brewer explains. ‘Instead, he used a combination of slow jogging and steady walking, which puts far less pressure on the body.*

27 days of 26 miles walking/jogging is still a lot of effort for something he didn't have to do. :-)

Bye

Ian


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## Phaeton (14 Oct 2019)

Ajax Bay said:


> If you take a look at the 26.2 mile time trial route from the weekend, you'll see that the route he ran is essentially that: out and back.


The comment was made very much tongue in cheek but if you need to be pedantic about it land speed records are often run over a measured distance. The competitor then has to do the return run over the same course starting within a specified time. So this guy ought to have run the 26 miles had an hours break & then run back the 26 miles the other way to make it valid! 

But can you now see how silly that would be? Lighten up not everything in life its serious


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## Ajax Bay (14 Oct 2019)

The point I thought you were jocularly implying was that the 26.2 mile time trial could be staged downhill and downwind. After all if you're going to have pacers stepping in and out and a close lead car then why not? The route at the weekend was designed (deliberately or otherwise) to avoid any (downhill and downwind) criticism - though more likely for logistic and spectator considerations.
Separately I note that Brigid Kosgei has just bested Paula Radcliffe's 16 years old world record: in a time of 2:14:04, racing the Chicago marathon. This is almost exactly 10% longer than the men's record.


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## Kempstonian (14 Oct 2019)

Kempstonian said:


> No, the first guy holds the American record. The other two were international records.
> 
> Talking of record breaking marathon runners, I knew this guy when I used to race:
> http://richardbird.me.uk/component/content/article/8-local-news/49-marathon-man
> ...


Incidentally, Richard's 71 marathons were all completed in under four hours except two (4:02 & 4:16). His fastest was 3:10, which he did twice. All his times are here:
http://www.richardbird.me.uk/compon...ocal-news/12-around-the-world-in-71-marathons


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## Dayvo (14 Oct 2019)

IanSmithCSE said:


> Interesting interpretations on how headlines become "truth". :-)
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/culture...umphant-after-running-27-marathons-in-27-days
> 
> ...



I wasn't referring to his running 27 marathons in Africa in 2016, I was referring to his running 43 marathons in Britain in 2009, so your above post is irrelevant.


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## Stephenite (14 Oct 2019)

What about this for a coincidence:

Marathon: 42195.0
Kipchoge: 1:59:40.2

!


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