# ventoux training



## jonny jeez (14 Sep 2015)

I live in the south east of England and am considering a climb of ventoux next spring (not the mad triple thing, just the one for me).

I am looking for advice on the best hill training for the job. I imagine doing reps of ditchling beacon would be good training but am happy to travel north for better hills, more variety and also more altitude.

Any good suggestions of hills that will give me a good familiarisation with something like ventoux....but in England


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## Rooster1 (14 Sep 2015)

My approach would be
- Do a few hill repeats on any given ride
- Try and cover 2000 feet of climbing on a given (weekend) ride, e.g 30-40 miles
- Go out during the day if an option (I go out every lunch time and do a small hill each time, 800 feet)

After a year of this I got quite fit.
After five years of this, I love climbs


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## TissoT (14 Sep 2015)

http://cyclinguphill.com/100-climbs/
Hill repeats should get you fit .


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## Dogtrousers (14 Sep 2015)

I don't know anything about effective training, but I am familiar with quite a few hills in the SE.

First of all, note that the Beacon, with its stepped profile isn't the most Ventoux-esque. If you want it to be similar to Ventoux you'd need a smooth profile, and I'd suggest Kidd's Hill for that. Both the Beacon and Kidd's are similar sized (about 1.5km @ ~8-9%). Ventoux is like that but ~20km long and we haven't got anything even remotely like that in the SE. 

The Greensand Ridge is another good place to look for hills (nr Sevenoaks) there is Toy's Hill, Ide Hill, Bayley's Hill, Carter's Hill, Hubbard's Hill ... but they're all pimples compared to where you're going. And of course there are the Surrey Hills - Leith, White Down, Box, Ranmore. Or SE of Maidstone there are hills on the N Downs, particularly one that I cycled down not long ago, heading SW into Charing.


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## Citius (14 Sep 2015)

Ventoux is a steady 1hr+ climb. Pointless doing repeats of UK hills, as they will give you nothing like the duration you need to train for. Riding up a short hill and then freewheeling back down it several times is not going to give you any sense of the 1hr steady-state effort you need for the alps.

Focus on holding high outputs for 1hr plus. You don't need hills for that. A turbo will do.


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## bianchi1 (14 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Ventoux is a steady 1hr+ climb. Pointless doing repeats of UK hills, as they will give you nothing like the duration you need to train for. Riding up a short hill and then freewheeling back down it several times is not going to give you any sense of the 1hr steady-state effort you need for the alps.
> 
> Focus on holding high outputs for 1hr plus. You don't need hills for that. A turbo will do.



Better still, set the turbo up in a sauna and now and again get a mate to replicate a 70mph gust of wind by pushing you over.


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## e-rider (14 Sep 2015)

jonny jeez said:


> I live in the south east of England and am considering a climb of ventoux next spring (not the mad triple thing, just the one for me).
> 
> I am looking for advice on the best hill training for the job. I imagine doing reps of ditchling beacon would be good training but am happy to travel north for better hills, more variety and also more altitude.
> 
> Any good suggestions of hills that will give me a good familiarisation with something like ventoux....but in England


lose as much weight as possible from your body and your bike
get as many miles in as possible over hilly rides
IMO riding up and down a hill will be boring and not that much help really - if you are overweight or riding a heavy bike you will never be quick uphill no matter how much training you do!


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## Simpleton (14 Sep 2015)

Do some work on a wattbike. After knowing your threshold of course.


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## jonny jeez (14 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Ventoux is a steady 1hr+ climb. Pointless doing repeats of UK hills, as they will give you nothing like the duration you need to train for. Riding up a short hill and then freewheeling back down it several times is not going to give you any sense of the 1hr steady-state effort you need for the alps.
> 
> Focus on holding high outputs for 1hr plus. You don't need hills for that. A turbo will do.


This was my thought really, I recall riding up shap fell in Cumbria once and whilst it wasn't steep it did feel long...and high. The beacon is close (enough to ride to for me) as are the North downs like box hill but I wondered if these were pointless (or would show small gains) compared to something higher.


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## jonny jeez (14 Sep 2015)

e-rider said:


> lose as much weight as possible from your body and your bike
> get as many miles in as possible over hilly rides
> IMO riding up and down a hill will be boring and not that much help really - if you are overweight or riding a heavy bike you will never be quick uphill no matter how much training you do!


Yep, the weight needs to be addressed, which is one of the reasons to focus on a goal. I lost a lot of weight for my leJog experience and loved the process, the training and the ride itself.

I am hoping to get "into" ventoux as much and to show as many benifits beyond just climbing it.

Speed is not a goal for me, completion is. Perhaps speed will be a goal the next time.

Look at me, talking like I plan multiple attempts!


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## Dogtrousers (14 Sep 2015)

Perhaps you should head the other way to the Romney Marshes, and zoom around on their flatness, in a very high gear. Possibly on an old MTB with soft tyres.

(I did say that I don't know anything about training).


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## jonny jeez (14 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Perhaps you should head the other way to the Romney Marshes, and zoom around on their flatness, in a very high gear. Possibly on an old MTB with soft tyres.
> 
> (I did say that I don't know anything about training).


Dragging a bag of road steel framed road bikes!


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## Citius (14 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> Perhaps you should head the other way to the Romney Marshes, and zoom around on their flatness, in a very high gear. Possibly on an old MTB with soft tyres.
> 
> (I did say that I don't know anything about training).



Long flat roads are ideal training for long steady climbs, ironically. Anywhere where you can ride at threshold for an hour plus without many (or any) interruptions would be ideal.


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## Joshua Plumtree (14 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Ventoux is a steady 1hr+ climb. Pointless doing repeats of UK hills, as they will give you nothing like the duration you need to train for. Riding up a short hill and then freewheeling back down it several times is not going to give you any sense of the 1hr steady-state effort you need for the alps.
> 
> Focus on holding high outputs for 1hr plus. You don't need hills for that. A turbo will do.



Agree with this for the most part, but I would also include a couple of one hour+ efforts on the road at near threshold a couple of times a week, taking in as many hills as possible. That way you'll be replicating the effort required to climb Ventoux - albeit on the flat for large parts - and your legs won't have forgotten how it feels to climb - which is the real danger if you spend all winter on the turbo IMO!


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## Dogtrousers (14 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Long flat roads are ideal training for long steady climbs, ironically. Anywhere where you can ride at threshold for an hour plus without many (or any) interruptions would be ideal.


Then the Romney Marshes would be ideal. And if @jonny jeez feels he really must go up a hill, I can recommend Battery Hill on the way into Bexhill from the East.


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## jonny jeez (14 Sep 2015)

Citius said:


> Ventoux is a steady 1hr+ climb. Pointless doing repeats of UK hills, as they will give you nothing like the duration you need to train for. Riding up a short hill and then freewheeling back down it several times is not going to give you any sense of the 1hr steady-state effort you need for the alps.
> 
> Focus on holding high outputs for 1hr plus. You don't need hills for that. A turbo will do.


Also...1hr+?

I thought it was about 25km. I'm guessing it'll be about 3 hours for me then?


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## Citius (14 Sep 2015)

jonny jeez said:


> Also...1hr+?
> 
> I thought it was about 25km. I'm guessing it'll be about 3 hours for me then?



Well maybe, I wasn't sure how quick you were. The pros are going up it in just under an hour...


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## Sittingduck (14 Sep 2015)

I would be tempted to head due south until I got to the A25, then head west until, say Reigate. Go further if you're feeling ok, turn and come back, retracing your steps. Maybe do Star hill on the way home, left at Sundridge as you probably know then a nice stretch of fast run in to home once you get up the downs. Go hard as you can. 2.5ish hours, I think.


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## jonny jeez (14 Sep 2015)

Sittingduck said:


> I would be tempted to head due south until I got to the A25, then head west until, say Reigate. Go further if you're feeling ok, turn and come back, retracing your steps. Maybe do Star hill on the way home, left at Sundridge as you probably know then a nice stretch of fast run in to home once you get up the downs. Go hard as you can. 2.5ish hours, I think.


I was thinking of something similar. But heading over caterham to box hill then a blast along th A25 to titsey hill. I have a feeling titsey hill is a pretty hard hill to end on.

But, rather than just building cardio practice on the flat, I was considering a few trios north, say up over the kirkstone...or even hardnot...are these relevant or just a distraction form doing miles.


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## Rooster1 (14 Sep 2015)

I managed a long mountain climb in the French pyrenees having done hill repeats mixed with some long miles, worked for me after only a year of being on the bike.


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## Sittingduck (14 Sep 2015)

Titsey Hill is ok but I find it a bit boring to be honest. The worst part is at the lower section (think it maxes out at around 17% at one point). For longer draggy climbs that take a while and are likely into a headwind, I would say Clarks Ln (more steady) or Star Hill (steeper sections) are the best on that section of downs. The reason I mentioned the A25 is that it is relatively fast, with not that many traffic lights yet rolling/lumpy enough to not be boring. I think it should be quite possible to go and ride virtually non stop at a high level of effort for 2-3 hours. If you wanted to extend the ride, I would suggest going as far as Dorking and heading South on the A24, before either looping round the bottom of Gatwick on the fast A road or turning right (Capel / Ockley) for the Surrey Hills... that might take a bit long though... 100+ back to Kent.


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## Citius (14 Sep 2015)

Rooster1 said:


> I managed a long mountain climb in the French pyrenees having done hill repeats mixed with some long miles, worked for me after only a year of being on the bike.



I would suggest that anyone, of any ability, could ride up any mountain, given enough time and the right gearing. All kinds of things will work, but some things will work better than others, depending on what the objectives are...


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## Hacienda71 (14 Sep 2015)

Jump on the Westcoast Virgin mainline train with your bike using some cheapo saver ticket. Get off at Macclesfield and turn right out of the station. Then head up the hill in front of you, that is about 7 miles, keep going till you get to Buxton, when you get into Buxton turn left up Long Hill another 2 or 3 miles of climbing and ride to the end of that and turn left and follow the road through Kettleshulme and Rainow another 5 miles or so of climbing and back to Macclesfield. Repeat the foregoing and then grab some food at the rather pleasant American diner opposite the station, or from Tele the proprieter of Waters Green Fish Bar across the car park, jump back on the train and arrive home in time for supper.  Jobs a good un.


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## TissoT (14 Sep 2015)

Something to read ..
http://www.climbbybike.com/training.asp?qryMountainID=4


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## oldfatfool (14 Sep 2015)

If you fancy a trip north 4 repeats of Holme moss would be around the equivalent of Ventoux from sault, or 3 trips up Cragg vale, though not quite as steep. Lots of Turbo training on a high resistance, worked for me also. 

Sault longest but easiest
Bedoin Hottest
Malaucene Hardest 

all imo


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## screenman (14 Sep 2015)

Get a 14 inch back wheel, a 27.5 front, jam the brakes on hard and pedal for 3 hours. Have fun it is on my list for next year, made easier by the fact one of my kids lives an hour from it.


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## fossyant (14 Sep 2015)

Hacienda71 said:


> Jump on the Westcoast Virgin mainline train with your bike using some cheapo saver ticket. Get off at Macclesfield and turn right out of the station. Then head up the hill in front of you, that is about 7 miles, keep going till you get to Buxton, when you get into Buxton turn left up Long Hill another 2 or 3 miles of climbing and ride to the end of that and turn left and follow the road through Kettleshulme and Rainow another 5 miles or so of climbing and back to Macclesfield. Repeat the foregoing and then grab some food at the rather pleasant American diner opposite the station, or from Tele the proprieter of Waters Green Fish Bar across the car park, jump back on the train and arrive home in time for supper.  Jobs a good un.



And check your brakes BEFORE you turn off Long Hill. You are evil !!! 

PS I think the heat might be the key point, not so much the length.


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## screenman (14 Sep 2015)

The heat at the top, is slightly and a tad more different to that at the bottom sometimes.


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## ayceejay (14 Sep 2015)

philosophy 101:
first you start with the why? and then the how, is there a bus service or a helicopter?
If you decide on doing it on a bike you return to why?
and then how.
As training goes this is as good as it gets


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## Citius (14 Sep 2015)

You've been drinking again...


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## ayceejay (15 Sep 2015)

Citius, a reply to your idiocy is almost worth being banned for but having to live with yourself is probably all the recognition you need.
Enjoy your cocoa


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## Dogtrousers (15 Sep 2015)

The thing is, long turbo sessions and hooning along the A25, while they may more closely replicate your target are likely to be dull as ditchwater. So mixing in a bit of enjoyable riding wouldn't be a bad idea. Heading out over the Downs, cross the A25, Toys Hill, Edenbridge, Kidds Hill and back is a fave route of mine and certainly won't do you any harm (and is over 1500m of climbing)


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## Citius (15 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> The thing is, long turbo sessions and hooning along the A25, while they may more closely replicate your target are likely to be dull as ditchwater.



This is often the case with focused training. Which is why only those with a commitment to improve tend to stick at it. As I said before, it depends on your objectives.



ayceejay said:


> Citius, a reply to your idiocy is almost worth being banned for but having to live with yourself is probably all the recognition you need.
> Enjoy your cocoa



Even your insults don't make sense....


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## subaqua (15 Sep 2015)

bianchi1 said:


> Better still, set the turbo up in a sauna and now and again get a mate to replicate a 70mph gust of wind by pushing you over.


I know somebody who did ventoux and said he wished he had set up his turbo in a sauna as that was what it was like out of the tree line


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## jonny jeez (15 Sep 2015)

Dogtrousers said:


> The thing is, long turbo sessions and hooning along the A25, while they may more closely replicate your target are likely to be dull as ditchwater. So mixing in a bit of enjoyable riding wouldn't be a bad idea. Heading out over the Downs, cross the A25, Toys Hill, Edenbridge, Kidds Hill and back is a fave route of mine and certainly won't do you any harm (and is over 1500m of climbing)



Yep, I shall definitely be planning on taking it easy up the hill, so am not aiming to break any records. with this in mind, I have to "enjoy" the training and make it part of ...well...riding really.



Sittingduck said:


> Titsey Hill is ok but I find it a bit boring to be honest. The worst part is at the lower section (think it maxes out at around 17% at one point). For longer draggy climbs that take a while and are likely into a headwind, I would say Clarks Ln (more steady) or Star Hill (steeper sections) are the best on that section of downs. The reason I mentioned the A25 is that it is relatively fast, with not that many traffic lights yet rolling/lumpy enough to not be boring. I think it should be quite possible to go and ride virtually non stop at a high level of effort for 2-3 hours. If you wanted to extend the ride, I would suggest going as far as Dorking and heading South on the A24, before either looping round the bottom of Gatwick on the fast A road or turning right (Capel / Ockley) for the Surrey Hills... that might take a bit long though... 100+ back to Kent.



I ride both of those regularly (like twice a year regular!)...but I do climb ide hill a lot, as there is a great tea shop at the top. I've never ridden UP Titsey though, so maybe a box hill circle back up titsey is a good ride.

(Defining "good" here is the key)



Hacienda71 said:


> Jump on the Westcoast Virgin mainline train with your bike using some cheapo saver ticket. Get off at Macclesfield and turn right out of the station. Then head up the hill in front of you, that is about 7 miles, keep going till you get to Buxton, when you get into Buxton turn left up Long Hill another 2 or 3 miles of climbing and ride to the end of that and turn left and follow the road through Kettleshulme and Rainow another 5 miles or so of climbing and back to Macclesfield. Repeat the foregoing and then grab some food at the rather pleasant American diner opposite the station, or from Tele the proprieter of Waters Green Fish Bar across the car park, jump back on the train and arrive home in time for supper.  Jobs a good un.



that sounds like a great plan and a good trip away too. I have mates up north who I could catch up with at the same time.

nice.


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## briantrumpet (15 Sep 2015)

If you can ride a bike for 2-3 hours you'll get up Ventoux, as long as you've got the right gearing for your fitness/weight. As others have said, hill training in this country simply can't replicate one vertical mile of altitude gain over 25km without a single bit of downhill. To an extent cycling on the flat into a headwind for a couple of hours will be closer to the experience, but even then you won't be using the muscles in the same way, or be needing/wanting to stand on the pedals to push up a draggy gradient.

Whatever you do, if you can, have one or two smaller gears than you think you'll need. If you think you can get up on a 53/23, you probably won't. Not after two hours.

Having said that, Alpine-type hills aren't actually as hard as many of the ones we have in the UK. Once you've got into a rhythm, and as along as you don't go off too fast, you just get into a zone and keep the legs twiddling round. You'll get there. But do pick your day carefully. The record wind speed at the top is 200mph.


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## TheDoctor (16 Sep 2015)

Get a bit fitter. Get a bit lighter. Get the biggest cassette you can.
I've done it on a road bike, and on a Brompton, both from Sault. It's doable by anyone who can ride for three hours and has low enough gears. Sure, it might mean stopping, but the view is worth stopping for!


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## RickB (16 Sep 2015)

jonny jeez said:


> I live in the south east of England and am considering a climb of ventoux next spring (not the mad triple thing, just the one for me).
> 
> I am looking for advice on the best hill training for the job. I imagine doing reps of ditchling beacon would be good training but am happy to travel north for better hills, more variety and also more altitude.
> 
> Any good suggestions of hills that will give me a good familiarisation with something like ventoux....but in England


What about a Bkool trainer? Virtual hill climbing. I've slogged up climbs which are well over an hour and it certainly gives you a good idea of what effort is required.


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## Norry1 (10 Jul 2016)

Have you done it yet?


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## adamangler (10 Jul 2016)

long flat ride in the country side, no traffic lights, big gear and crank it over for an hour, hands on the tops to catch the wind and mimic the position

yeh i know


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## Beebo (12 Jul 2016)

This graph shows the task compared to Box Hill.
The wags have swapped the lables but box hill is that small wiggly line on the bottom left. It looks like a small speed bump.


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## TheDoctor (12 Jul 2016)

TheDoctor said:


> Get a bit fitter. Get a bit lighter. Get the biggest cassette you can.
> I've done it on a road bike, and on a Brompton, both from Sault. It's doable by anyone who can ride for three hours and has low enough gears. Sure, it might mean stopping, but the view is worth stopping for!


That. It's hard work, but it's not impossible. I decided to have a go after going up Horseshoe Pass from Llangollen and realising that if I could do that four times over, then that's Ventoux done and dusted.


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## Dogtrousers (14 Jul 2016)

I know this is an old thread, but it seems to have come back to life. I just stumbled across this link

How to become a better climber… if you don’t live near any climbs

I'm not vouching for the content, I'm not qualified to judge. It may be all utter tosh for all I know.


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## jowwy (18 Jul 2016)

I just downloaded this turbo training video


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## 3narf (11 Nov 2016)

What is 'threshold?'


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## psmiffy (11 Nov 2016)

I remember reading this thread when it first came up - the question that came into my mind was - do you need to train for Ventoux at all? light bike, decent gearing - unless of course there is some special time to beat - just enjoy


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## PK99 (11 Nov 2016)

psmiffy said:


> I remember reading this thread when it first came up - the question that came into my mind was - do you need to train for Ventoux at all? light bike, decent gearing - unless of course there is some special time to beat - just enjoy



Having done it in September from Sault, I have to agree.

It's a bike ride up a hill. The total climb is far less than a day ride in the Surrey hills, it just comes in one big lump. ok if you are determined to beat your mate up and do it without stopping it becomes more of a challenge.

We have Unfinished business as we were turned round 2km from the top as 120kph winds made it too dangerous. We will be back next September and do not plan to do any extraordinary training other than switching the balance of our rides to have more hills.


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## jonny jeez (11 Nov 2016)

psmiffy said:


> I remember reading this thread when it first came up - the question that came into my mind was - do you need to train for Ventoux at all?


I think that...if you met me, you would have your answer.


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## jonny jeez (11 Nov 2016)

psmiffy said:


> I remember reading this thread when it first came up - the question that came into my mind was - do you need to train for Ventoux at all? light bike, decent gearing - unless of course there is some special time to beat - just enjoy





PK99 said:


> Having done it in September from Sault, I have to agree.
> 
> It's a bike ride up a hill. The total climb is far less than a day ride in the Surrey hills, it just comes in one big lump. ok if you are determined to beat your mate up and do it without stopping it becomes more of a challenge.
> 
> We have Unfinished business as we were turned round 2km from the top as 120kph winds made it too dangerous. We will be back next September and do not plan to do any extraordinary training other than switching the balance of our rides to have more hills.



I do take both your points though.

Perhaps I could just drop over and ride it.


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## psmiffy (11 Nov 2016)

jonny jeez said:


> I think that...if you met me, you would have your answer.



I think if you had met me you wouldnt have asked the question


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## S-Express (12 Nov 2016)

3narf said:


> What is 'threshold?'


The highest level of effort you can maintain, while still being able to maintain lactate tolerance. From an hr perspective it probably represents around 88-92% mhr.


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## HLaB (12 Nov 2016)

Given this thread has been resurrected I'll give my 2p. For the last 4 years I've been living in an almost flat area and used to be of the thought that not doing big hills would be a detriment to my climbing but I've came to realise that sustained power on the flat at a higher speed equals sustained power on a mountain albeit at a lower speed and have since done some big mountains in the Alps, Mallorca and contrary to the school of thought some big climbs in Belgium the (Ardennes). Jealous of folk going up the Ventoux though, I think thats next on my bucket list


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## TheDoctor (13 Nov 2016)

Oh, do it, for sure. It ought to be on every cyclists tick list.
Get as light as you can, gear as low as possible, accept the fact that it's gonna hurt.
Enjoy it. Take in the views, smell the changes in the air as you climb.
But don't try and beat any particular time, don't go too hard or you'll blow up.
The ride is long, but you're only racing yourself.
And trust me on the sunscreen.


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## Shut Up Legs (17 Nov 2016)

I thoroughly enjoyed my 2 rides up Ventoux in September.  I did the Bedoin climb then the Malaucene one. The former was probably harder, but then the latter was the 2nd climb of the day, so took a bit longer. The views up the latter climb are fantastic, and the middle third of the climb was great fun.  (I actually managed not to stop pedaling during that bit)
Here's my descents to Malaucene and to Bedoin from the summit:



Check out the Malaucene video at 11:00: that's where I was speeding down the long, steep and straight bit.


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## MasterDabber (19 Nov 2016)

Joshua Plumtree said:


> Agree with this for the most part, but I would also include a couple of one hour+ efforts on the road at near threshold a couple of times a week, taking in as many hills as possible. That way you'll be replicating the effort required to climb Ventoux - albeit on the flat for large parts - and your legs won't have forgotten how it feels to climb - which is the real danger if you spend all winter on the turbo IMO!



There's general agreement that you need to be able to sustain riding for at least an hour+ and if you're doing this on a hilly/undulating course you need to keep the work rate going. This means no reaching the brow of the hill and easing off or freewheeling. You need to keep the effort going all through the ride. You'll have no chance to freewheel on Ventoux. I guess that's one of the advantages of turbo training in that you can set a high resistance and ride at a consistent pace throughout with no stops for traffic lights, roadworks etc.


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## Alfie_Gooner (26 Feb 2017)

I'm attempting Ventoux this May, and have been doing spinning classes as well as Turbo sessions for most of my training with the odd long ride at faster/harder than normal. I have a Turbo that can replicate Ventoux with gradients/resistance etc and have completed it twice so far.....(both over 2 hours). I'm not looking to get up it fast but just want to have a challenge and complete it.


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## TheDoctor (26 Feb 2017)

Well, you obviously believe you can do it. That's most of the challenge IMHO.
If a not especially fit fat bastard with a hangover can do Ventoux on a Brompton, anyone can. Might take a while, but it's not a race. Enjoy it! 

Oh, and do appreciate the kilometre marker stones. IME they're good for a short sit-down to look at the view. Not to catch your breath in anyway whatsoever.
Admiring. The. View.
Definitely!


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