# Battery cost.



## gim (7 Mar 2017)

Very, very happy with my Haibike, I'm hoping the battery will last 4 to 5 years, although my last electric bike (a cheapish one with I suspect a cheap battery lasted 3 years).
I have noticed that Panasonic/Tesla are very close to getting lithium batteries prices down to $100 a kwh. So my .4 kwh bike battery about $40 plus case and electronics ... let's be reasonable and say $100 (£82). And the cost of my bike battery is ...... £600 pounds. I know I have not allowed for warranty costs, importer markup, shop markup etc etc. I wouldn't mind paying £250 but we really are getting screwed.


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## fossyant (7 Mar 2017)

If you think a good quality Panasonic 18650 lipo is about £10 each for 3200/3400 mah, you've probably got quite a few in that pack, as a laptop has 6-8. My LED lights use 4 of these.


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## raleighnut (7 Mar 2017)

gim said:


> Very, very happy with my Haibike, I'm hoping the battery will last 4 to 5 years, although my last electric bike (a cheapish one with I suspect a cheap battery lasted 3 years).
> I have noticed that Panasonic/Tesla are very close to getting lithium batteries prices down to $100 a kwh. So my .4 kwh bike battery about $40 plus case and electronics ... let's be reasonable and say $100 (£82). And the cost of my bike battery is ...... £600 pounds. I know I have not allowed for warranty costs, importer markup, shop markup etc etc. I wouldn't mind paying £250 but we really are getting screwed.


Battery costs in the USA are far lower than here (I've been looking at a 36v 30ah for the trike) yet again british buyers being screwed ?


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## classic33 (7 Mar 2017)

Bigger market in the US than the UK. Always has been.

Worked in a shop that sold products made in China. Once a year we'd get an Australian visiting, buying what he wanted up here, because it was cheaper than the same item sold in in Australia. That's after taking his airfair into consideration. But once here, he'd make a holiday out of it anyway.


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## steveindenmark (8 Mar 2017)

gim said:


> Very, very happy with my Haibike, I'm hoping the battery will last 4 to 5 years, although my last electric bike (a cheapish one with I suspect a cheap battery lasted 3 years).
> I have noticed that Panasonic/Tesla are very close to getting lithium batteries prices down to $100 a kwh. So my .4 kwh bike battery about $40 plus case and electronics ... let's be reasonable and say $100 (£82). And the cost of my bike battery is ...... £600 pounds. I know I have not allowed for warranty costs, importer markup, shop markup etc etc. I wouldn't mind paying £250 but we really are getting screwed.



But you knew you were being screwed before you bought your bike. But you still bought it. It is the one down side of electric bikes.


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## keithmac (10 Mar 2017)

I though my Gtech wasn't bad value at £1000. 

Seen a few Carbon drive single speeds at £600 so an extra £400 for battery and hub motor, controller etc isn't out of the way.

One of the best things I've bought, transformed my work commute!.


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## cheys03 (10 Mar 2017)

fossyant said:


> If you think a good quality Panasonic 18650 lipo is about £10 each for 3200/3400 mah, you've probably got quite a few in that pack, as a laptop has 6-8. My LED lights use 4 of these.


If you're buying a few to counter the postage, they can be had much cheaper here:
https://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/panasonic-ncr18650b-made-in-japan.html

The Haibike pack will use different cells, more suited to a higher amp draw. When the original battery no longer gives useful performance or range you could re-cell it with a bit of patience and methodical approach for a fraction of the cost. 400Wh is approximately 40 cells based on 10Wh/cell, so the replacements might set you back around £150. For example the Samsung 30Q which are a good compromise of power capability, capacity and price.
https://eu.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650-size/samsung-inr-18650-30q-3000mah.html
These will be replaced by higher spec models by the time you come to replace them, likely for the same or better price.


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## screenman (10 Mar 2017)

gim said:


> Very, very happy with my Haibike, I'm hoping the battery will last 4 to 5 years, although my last electric bike (a cheapish one with I suspect a cheap battery lasted 3 years).
> I have noticed that Panasonic/Tesla are very close to getting lithium batteries prices down to $100 a kwh. So my .4 kwh bike battery about $40 plus case and electronics ... let's be reasonable and say $100 (£82). And the cost of my bike battery is ...... £600 pounds. I know I have not allowed for warranty costs, importer markup, shop markup etc etc. I wouldn't mind paying £250 but we really are getting screwed.




Out of interest, who do you think is doing the screwing?


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## KnackeredBike (11 Mar 2017)

As cheys03 said the battery you buy will be more expensive than a Tesla battery because it has to be able to supply much higher peak loads than a car, which has more batteries to draw on. Also electric car batteries keep in better condition because they are always kept between 20% and 80% charge which allows for different designs. Electric bike ones typically have to go between full charge and zero charge much more.

Finally Tesla are making their own batteries on a huge scale. Electric bike manufacturers have much smaller production runs.

Sorry if that sounds dull but if it was economic to make them cheaper there would be a big generic market as there are for standard bike components.


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## Pale Rider (11 Mar 2017)

Recelling a Bosch battery is difficult due to the locked down nature of the Bosch system - it's the Apple of ebikes.

I believe a company in Germany has recently started offering to do it, but I've no reports of how successful it is.

There are no pattern batteries for the current shape Bosch pack, although there are one or two for the older shape.

The Tesla cells look promising, but as said, the design parameters are different.

One problem is the energy density is lower than other cells, so a Tesla ebike pack with a decent capacity would be much larger than what's currently available.

I've followed the ebike battery market for a few years now, and while improvements are being made, the pace of change is glacial and incremental.

Bosch went from 400wh capacity to 500wh for the same size, although the larger capacity battery is heavier.

No doubt the next Bosch battery in a year or two will have increased capacity again, but don't expect any giant leaps forward.


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## cheys03 (11 Mar 2017)

Pale Rider said:


> Recelling a Bosch battery is difficult due to the locked down nature of the Bosch system - it's the Apple of ebikes.
> 
> I believe a company in Germany has recently started offering to do it, but I've no reports of how successful it is.



Yep, that's true at the moment. Like most things it's only matter of time before bypasses and workarounds are widely available (as you allude to). By the time a Bosch battery bought today requires replacement under normal use there's a good chance that it could be re-cell'd economically.

Even if it can't be and a new replacement is required, is £600 so huge a sum over 4-5yrs (obtainable given sensible use)? ebikes really do have their place and if it gets you riding more and/or experiencing new things, or making the commute interesting the cost can be justified?

I know the original complaint was about the cost of the cells vs the cost of the batteries, but everything has a mark up and there are far worse rackets - coffee, perfume, car insurance etc.


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## Pale Rider (11 Mar 2017)

Another point is the Bosch system appears not to be harsh on batteries.

I suspect that's due to two things, the battery is decent quality, but also the motor is not that powerful so doesn't thrash it.

My two Bosch batteries are 2012 and 2013, neither has lost any capacity that I can detect.

Compare that to lots of reports of £250 Chinese batteries which lose so much capacity after two or three years as to be all but unusable.

Might not be so much in it in terms of life cost, given you can buy two Chinese batteries for the cost of one Bosch one.

Although if my Bosch batteries last another couple of years, it's obvious where the value is.


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