# Some pedals...



## ThinAir (2 Jul 2013)

So artery foray into road riding, I'm looking at buying a mountain bike as well now, so that I can take part in this as well. This is particularly something that I am looking to do with my little sister, and whilst I will be taking this seriously, I probably won't be spending as much money on this area for cycling as I do on the roads.

However, I am going to be buying a Fuji Nevada 1.5 D 2013 (29"re)…

It comes supplied with more bog standard plastic pedals, but what is the script with MTB pedals? I know about clip less for my roadie, but what's the preferred method in the mountain bike community?

I know ultimately it's what I am comfortable with, but what is out there? What should I be looking for?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (2 Jul 2013)

Whatever takes your fancy. I use M520's with no issues as a relative noob to MTBing.


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## ThinAir (2 Jul 2013)

A right, So it's cool to be clipped in.. Wasn't sure if it was advisable on a lunatic bike...n show me heading to my LBS :-)


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## Tango (2 Jul 2013)

There is no right answer I'm afraid

The opinions vary dramatically depending on what your pedal of choice happens to be.

I use M520 on my roadie, yep a strange thought I'm sure, but mtb shoes look ore comfy for walking in and I ave M520 left in the shed from when I used the on the mtb.

Personally for mtb I prefer flat pedals, eg DMR V8 , V12 or Vaults.

This suits me better on more slower technical stuff, but really it's personal preference with the important factor being just to get out and enjoy pedalling


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## ThinAir (2 Jul 2013)

Tango said:


> There is no right answer I'm afraid
> 
> The opinions vary dramatically depending on what your pedal of choice happens to be.
> 
> ...



Sweet dude, think I will stick with whatever comes with it to begin with and then see how I progress from there.

Must admit the thought of being clipped in on a MTB, leaves me feeling a little trepidation, sounds like a damn good way to get hurt, and quickly! 

Liking the look of the v12's though, the vaults on the other hand are a tad out of my price range!


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## Tango (2 Jul 2013)

I have tried all three DMRs and have been delighted with all of them

The main reason I stopped using the M520s was because I was holidaying in France and didn't want to put 'special' shoes on every time I needed to pedal round the campsite.

Now I can't imagine going back to them from flats 

I hear guys are happy with Superstar Nanotech pedals too


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## ThinAir (2 Jul 2013)

Cool...


What about footwear then.... Was just going to go for some decent but quite firm soled trainers....


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## Tango (2 Jul 2013)

Lol, another mine field 

I use 510 Impact Lows, but again within reason anything will do. But the tester quality the pedal shoe combo the more confident you will feel

If you are using a flat pedal, you need flat soled shoes with plenty of contact area for the pins to 'dig' into

If you wear rugged soled shoes the pins may go into the gaps and not provide the grip you would require

But as I said earlier, getting out and riding and having a smile on your face is the number one priority


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## lukesdad (2 Jul 2013)

ThinAir said:


> A right, So it's cool to be clipped in.. Wasn't sure if it was advisable on a lunatic bike...n show me heading to my LBS :-)


Not a question of 'cool' the advantages of being clipped in off road are the same as on the road plus some, my choice Time Atac


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## User19783 (2 Jul 2013)

+1 for Time atac


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## ThinAir (2 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Not a question of 'cool' the advantages of being clipped in off road are the same as on the road plus some, my choice Time Atac



Didn't mean cool as in 'looking cool, or being cool', but more cool as in 'its acceptable/accepted"...

I may have been misconstrued!


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## Nigel-YZ1 (2 Jul 2013)

I've been using DMR V12 for the past few years. I've dabbled with Crank Brothers Eggbeaters and may try them again some time.
As far as the feet goes, I've been wearing Specialized Rockhopper shoes for 12 years. They do last that long! They work nicely as flats, and have the necessaries for cleats if I want to get the Eggbeaters out again. Not sure what the present day equivalent is though.


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## marzjennings (2 Jul 2013)

I see way more mtbers with spds than flats. 

Unless I drop by the jump zone where all bikes have flats.

It's a personal thing based on riding style.

For me, XTR spds on roadie and mtbs.


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## Tango (3 Jul 2013)

As you can see ThinAir, opinions vary greatly

It is very much a personal choice thing.

Lukesdad sees big advantage in being clipped in which will be true for him personally, in the same way I prefer to use flats and see no advantage what so ever for spd personally.

There is an often believed thought process that being clipped in is more efficient because you can 'pull up' with the pedals and again some think this to be true and some don't (I'm the later)

There has been details on another forum a while back of an American study that shows that the vast majority of the strength in the leg is for pushing down, I.e. lifting heavy things or running and the muscles that do the up stroke work when using SPD, were only ever meant to lift the weight of the leg to get it ready for the next push down, for running or lifting etc

http://roadcyclinguk.com/riding/bike-fitting-the-myth-of-the-upstroke.html

If I am honest, I could happily ride almost any trail I have ever been on clipped in or flats.

Where I would HAVE to wear flats would be on black sections where there are large rocks and i have to ride very slow where balance is more important than speed, other than that either would do and therefore it comes down to personal preference

Good luck, you are right in the middle of some fine access to mountain bike trails


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## Summerking (3 Jul 2013)

I have always preferred flat pedals for my mountain biking the need to dab a foot down arises more often than I care to admit, and use flat shoes specific to mountain biking, 'Five Ten' make great flat specific shoes.


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## Cubist (3 Jul 2013)

^^^ Whereas to reverse that idea, you have to unclip and clip back in so often on a ride that it literally becomes second nature. I use XT trail M785 pedals off road. I also have a pair of flat pedals (superstar Nano Thru Pins) and a pair of Five Ten Freeride shoes to go with them, and tend to use these for playing and skillz building...... but not much now that we are in the middle of lovely trail riding weather!


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## Tango (3 Jul 2013)

^^^^^^^ but as you quite rightly say, in a skills area you would use flats, which would suggest, that no tater how second nature un clipping is, it's still quicker to part company with flats.

I have seen a number of guys over the years on slower more technical stuff fall off the big because they were 'attached' to the pedals, but most likely would have been ok clipped in.

Like I said earlier, for the most part, 99% of my riding would be ok clipped in, but being clipped in doesn't offer me any advantages over flats.


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## Cubist (3 Jul 2013)

I meant jumpy stuff really, and stuff like practising trackstands, which I still can't do, and wheelies, which last about half a turn of the pedals.... and yes, if there's a chance of falling off or over I think flats are best. On technical stuff though I much prefer being "in touch with" the bike. I used to ride with DX style pedals, with a big surround so I could dab and get back onto the pedals, and occasionally unclipped for scary rocky descents, but I eventually realised that I didn't feel anywhere near secure enough if my feet could be bounced off the pedals by rockstrikes etc. My other personal advantage is ruts and so on, especially on tech climbs, where occasionally you won't get the pedals to do a full revolution. Clipped in you can toe tap AND pull up as a get out of jail trick. 

What we mustn't do is give people, especially novices, the idea that riding clipless means you are going to fall off more, otherwise it would be counterintuitive to use SPDs on anything other than an absolutely smooth surface. We never seem to mention that the main disadvantage of flat pedals is the increased likelihood of shin rippage from pins, and general shin damage through losing the pedals in rough stuff. 

SO, if you are starting out on a MTB, my personal recommendation would be to get some decent SPDs (please don't get M520s, there are better pedals available for not much more money....) and ride progressively rougher and gnarlier trails in them until you gain complete confidence. It'll seem hard work at first, but persevere and hone your technique, until unclipping and -more difficult on rough stuff- clipping back in is a piece of cake.


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## Tango (3 Jul 2013)

With you on track stands Cubist (unfortunately  )

Can't say that I ever felt like my feet were going tome off the pedals using 510 impact low and DMRs

I must say if I felt like that, fast rocky descents like gatescarth pass in the Lake District would definitely need spds, but fortunately the shoe pedal combo I use seems great.

I think ALL riders should experience both and then decide

I have friends that swear by both and each one insist that the type of pedal they use is best.

For me it's horses for courses, I have just never been in a situation where spd offered me personally any advantage over flats


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## GrumpyGregry (3 Jul 2013)

The only time I've regretted wearing spds on an mtb was...

in the Austrian Alps, on a piece of rocky bumpy narrow singletrack, that we in the UK would call a footpath, which ran across, and down, the face of a cliff half way down a mountain. After riding a bit on tip toe to avoid getting clipped in, I managed to find a bit wide enough to get off and walk but I had to shoulder the bike as no room to push it.


and in a certain place in Wales.


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## Tango (3 Jul 2013)

I can certainly see that as an argument for flats Greg.

I always wondered what the argument FOR SPDs was


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## ThinAir (3 Jul 2013)

Cheers for all the advice guys.... 

Just thought I'd inform that I've changed the bike I am getting, and will now be (in about a week), the proud owner of a Felt Nine 60 :-)


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## Dave W (3 Jul 2013)

I'm in the spd camp and have been for years. Tried flats the other day and it was horrible. 

Try both, use what you like.


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## Tango (3 Jul 2013)

Dave W said:


> Try both, use what you like.



Wise words


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## lukesdad (4 Jul 2013)

Being clipped in I take the bike with me when I go flying off into the undergrowth, saves a lot of time not looking for the bike !


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## gaz (4 Jul 2013)

I use some shimano SPD pedals on my mountain bike. Have used SPD-SL in the past and it was possible as long as you didn't put your foot down in mud!

Personally I like to have my feet attached to the pedals and as I've been using some form of clipless for the past 8 years, it's second nature to unclip when you need to.
Never had a problem with using clipless pedals off road but have cut my self plenty of times using flats.


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## lulubel (6 Jul 2013)

Dave W said:


> Try both, use what you like.


 
Totally agree. My partner uses SPDs, loves them, wouldn't want to use anything else.

I use flats, love them, wouldn't want to use anything else.

It's just down to which you, personally, prefer, and you won't know that until you've tried both.


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## marzjennings (6 Jul 2013)

Tango said:


> I can certainly see that as an argument for flats Greg.
> 
> I always wondered what the argument FOR SPDs was



The arguement is easy, speed. Flats = slow, spds = fast.


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## Tango (6 Jul 2013)

marzjennings said:


> The arguement is easy, speed. Flats = slow, spds = fast.



Which is as helpful as saying red cars = fast , blue cars = slow

I had hoped for a reasoned argument explaining why.

Hey ho, I guess I may ever find out

Anyone else have a useful suggestion to help me clear up the matter if why spds are better than flats

I am more than happy to accept that they are for some, I am just interested as to why because for me they are not


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## lulubel (6 Jul 2013)

marzjennings said:


> The arguement is easy, speed. Flats = slow, spds = fast.


 
Tell that to all the people below me in the Strava segment rankings.


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## Tango (6 Jul 2013)

I can honestly say that as many flat and SPD users over take me up hill and the same down the orher side, I have only ever found fitness a barrier to climbing and balls and skill a barrier to descending. 

I haven't come across a single person who was advantaged with either pedal type


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## marzjennings (6 Jul 2013)

Tango said:


> Which is as helpful as saying red cars = fast , blue cars = slow
> 
> I had hoped for a reasoned argument explaining why.
> 
> ...


Hang on, let me find a single successful pro or cat 1 xc rider who rides with flats. Oh yes, there are none. Same for roadie and track. Even some the successful downhillers and bmxers ride spds.

Yes you can fast on flats, you'll go faster with spds.


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## Salad Dodger (6 Jul 2013)

I use DMR V8 pedals on my MTB. Not expensive, well made and have removable "studs" which grip the sole of most shoes. I like being able to get a foot down quickly if I have temporarily lost momentum or control, and these pedals allow you to do it.

The only thing is that the studs will draw blood from your shins if you clout a pedal (unless you wear shin guards, but I don't do the sort of extreme riding that normally goes with body armour), but other than that I wouldn't change them at all......


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## Tango (6 Jul 2013)

marzjennings said:


> Yes you can fast on flats, you'll go faster with spds.



Examples are not arguments 


I would like to hear a detailed argument in favour of spds.

I accept that top riders use them, it's just that having tried both I see no advantage in spds, but do see advantage in flats when it gets real techy on the trails

I'm not saying one is better than the other, just one is better than the other for me. Would be nice to hear a counter argument


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## marzjennings (6 Jul 2013)

Tango said:


> Examples are not arguments
> 
> 
> I would like to hear a detailed argument in favour of spds.
> ...




If you already ride exactly how you want to ride then there are no reasons to switch pedals.

I like to race and to give me sporting chance I ride spds. It is a lot easier to consistently produce high rpm wattage with feet attached in the optimum position on the pedals.


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## Tango (7 Jul 2013)

marzjennings said:


> It is a lot easier to consistently produce high rpm wattage with feet attached in the optimum position on the pedals.



I must say that ensuring the optimum position argument does make sense


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## lukesdad (7 Jul 2013)

This is all really a non starter and rather like a helmet debate. No one needs to justify their choice. I'm not quite sure what you want Tango ? You've made your choice are you trying to justify it to yourself or others ?


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## Cubist (7 Jul 2013)

If you want more pros, then how about quicker easier hops, rear wheel lifts.
How about being able to rag your bike back into line as you're attached to it. How about being able to put pressure in any direction into the pedals without fear of slipping off?

Without wanting to sound elitist, you don't need spds to ride a towpath or spin round a park. If you ride red and black routes then there will be some advantages. If you go out seeking technical challenging organic routes, then being clipped in has the advantages listed above.
Not all of those will make sense to a novice or a towpath mtber, and in fact those that say they feel the need to get a foot down quickly are possibly not yet at the stage where spds would help much, as they yet need to learn to shralp the gnarrr.

using spds is intimidating for some off road. I'm not that keen on flats, but if I do use them its with big pins and very sticky five- tens so my feet feel locked on.


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## Dave W (7 Jul 2013)

For me it's simple, when I use SPD's my feet are locked in and there's no danger of them bouncing off the pedals. It means I use less energy just pedalling and staying on the bike. 

I know people say that this can be achieved with pins and sticky shoes but I've tried it and it's not the same. 

Far from making me nervous I'm far more confident when clipped in and overall for me the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.


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## lulubel (7 Jul 2013)

Cubist said:


> How about being able to rag your bike back into line as you're attached to it. How about being able to put pressure in any direction into the pedals without fear of slipping off?
> 
> Without wanting to sound elitist, you don't need spds to ride a towpath or spin round a park. If you ride red and black routes then there will be some advantages. If you go out seeking technical challenging organic routes, then being clipped in has the advantages listed above.


 
And there's the reason why I prefer flats over clipless. That all sounds like way too much thinking for me. 

I don't cycle to think. I cycle to give my brain a rest, and let my body do the work for a change. If I come across nasty technical stuff, I put a foot down, usually closely followed by the other foot.

OK, so there's a little bit of exaggeration going on there, but where you ride and what you wear on your feet really does come down to what you're more comfortable with, and not what anyone else thinks. This discussion will probably go round and round in circles until everyone gets bored.


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## ThinAir (7 Jul 2013)

Wow...generating a lot of controversy.

I think so far, I have decided I a, going to keep the pedals that comes with the bike to begin with and see how I get on with them and then borrow a spare pair of SPDS from somewhere and see how's cope with/like them before settling on buying something a little more expensive in either flat/SPD. 

So now I am reading about red runs and black runs etc... Where is a good place to find out about different tracks/trails etc? 

I'm not massively familiar with the area surrounding the area which I live in! Silly I know. But I have very little time to explore!


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## Cubist (7 Jul 2013)

You have, on your doorstep some of the most wonderful MTBing in the world. It's even better if you step sideways over the big hill into God's own county. 

What sort of riding do you want to do? There are two great little trail centres in Manchester, Philips Park at Prestwich and Clayton Vale opposite the Etihad stadium. Other than that there are all-day epics and cheeky half-hours in the Peaks; Calderdale, the spiritual home of mountainbiking, and Cleckhuddersfax a few minutes' drive away. North Wales and some really magnificent trail centres and natural slate bed rockfests a scant hour along the M56. 

Get a map, or a subscription to the Ordnance Survey (discounted this weekend I believe, and go in via the forum members' benefits page) or browse via Bing mapping leisure map layers and seek out bridleways and cheeky paths. 

Google the name of your nearest settlement and "MTB" and see what comes up.... loads and loads of routes and suggestions. Or post on here what sort of riding you want to do and well see what we can help with.


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## ThinAir (7 Jul 2013)

Cubist said:


> You have, on your doorstep some of the most wonderful MTBing in the world. It's even better if you step sideways over the big hill into God's own county.
> ....
> Google the name of your nearest settlement and "MTB" and see what comes up.... loads and loads of routes and suggestions. Or post on here what sort of riding you want to do and well see what we can help with.



Great answer, cheers, Cubist! 

Don't get me wrong i don't want people to do all the work for me, but certainly need some pointers...all suggestions welcome! 

For example, I didn't know about the centre in Prestwich, which is probably about a ten minute drive from my house! 

As for the kind of riding, I want to start with something none too taxing and then build up to things which are much more challenging with some challenging climbs n some awesome descents! 

I also love being out in the middle of nowhere, in forests, woods, up hills etc. 

Back home in Derbyshire I know where a lot of this is, but up here.... CLUELESS! Love the idea of north Wales though, good shout! 

Cheers


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (7 Jul 2013)

ThinAir said:


> For example, I didn't know about the centre in Prestwich, which is probably about a ten minute drive warmup from my house!
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers


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## Cubist (7 Jul 2013)

ThinAir said:


> Wow...generating a lot of controversy.
> 
> 
> 
> So now I am reading about red runs and black runs etc... Where is a good place to find out about different tracks/trails etc?


 
Trail centres are graded according to technical challenge you are likely to face on them. Even then they vary according to trail centres and who graded them. For example, the "Red" Kitchener trail at Sherwood Pines would be a light blue in Southwest Scotland. However, generally speaking a novice should be able to get round most blue routes without coming to grief. If you can, and want to up the challenge, then ride a red, but remember that you are allowed to get off and push if it's too intimidating or you need a breather!!!!!

Black routes vary too. I struggle with some black features, and am not brave enough for others, so tend to enjoy really flowy red routes with some jumps and rock gardens. Have a look on Youtube for some example videos..... there are plenty of weekend heroes with helmet cams to show you what the trails look like. Be aware some make it look very easy though!


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## ThinAir (7 Jul 2013)

T.M.H.N.E.T said:


>


How rude ;-)


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## Ciar (8 Jul 2013)

I ride flats, I rode flats on my BMX when I was in my early teens, so it's only natural to me to keep riding them, on my hybrid cx i have wellgo b143's lovely flat pedal on my scott scale 29er I use dmr v8's, only difference is the v8's are shin slicers, where as the wellgo's are just brilliant all round pedal out of the two, i would pick the wellgo's but as lots of people have said already it's a personal choice on what you prefer to ride and which pedals you buy


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## Tango (8 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> This is all really a non starter and rather like a helmet debate. No one needs to justify their choice. I'm not quite sure what you want Tango ? You've made your choice are you trying to justify it to yourself or others ?



That's a fair point re the helmet debate. There will always be two sides to an argument.

I use both pedal types and as I said earlier, you make your choice and get out pedalling. 

Riding and grinning being the mat important part 

I am not trying to justify what I do, I was just trying to find out if there was a specific tangible argument for spds over flats

But happy to move on and avoid the 'going round in circles' bit


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## Tango (8 Jul 2013)

You could look towards Gisburn Forest ThinAir, there are some very nice blue sections with red and black also available, it's only just over an hour from Prestwich


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## lukesdad (8 Jul 2013)

I thought there had been several tangible reasons given, here are mine besides having your feet planted in the right position all of the time. Flats are to bulky and foul obstructions far too regularly. you may think a cm or 2 would not make a lot of difference but try riding 165 cranks compared to 175s and its the same with width. You may not ride a lot of ruts or river beds but I do and flats are far to clumsy. Your reasoning behind power in the stroke is a little off the mark too, on the road turning the pedals is a continous regular motion mtb is different to get up a bank or over a rock needs a burst of max power you need the lift on the up stroke.


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## RhythMick (8 Jul 2013)

My view... Ride what feels right to you... 
Having tried SPD on road I went back to flats and love it. I just enjoy my ride more. I know a lot of people feel differently and that's fine. 

Just saying...


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## Tango (8 Jul 2013)

lukesdad said:


> I thought there had been several tangible reasons given, here are mine besides having your feet planted in the right position all of the time. Flats are to bulky and foul obstructions far too regularly. you may think a cm or 2 would not make a lot of difference but try riding 165 cranks compared to 175s and its the same with width. You may not ride a lot of ruts or river beds but I do and flats are far to clumsy. Your reasoning behind power in the stroke is a little off the mark too, on the road turning the pedals is a continous regular motion mtb is different to get up a bank or over a rock needs a burst of max power you need the lift on the up stroke.



Absolutely agree re 'clumsy' as you put it. I have done some river bed and rut riding and the Vaults do indeed catch.

Regarding power delivery, I have never had an issue with bursts required for getting up a bank or over rocks. Might give spds a go next time I am up at Bolts Law in County Durham


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## GilesM (15 Jul 2013)

If you want to learn to ride a bike properly off road, then those in the know recommend using flats while you are learning the skills, (you do pick up some bad habits bunny hoping and jumping with clipless pedals), and once you have mastered the skills then move to clipless if you want, however, it all depends what you want/plan to do, I've always used SPDs, (I can live with my bad habits) I have XTRs on my hardtail and full suss, I think they're great, and the release is so natural I very rarely get clipless moments, I ride quite a lot of techy black stuff/natural trails, I find all accidents I have are nothing to do with be clipped in, me and bike are always separated once the crash has finished.

As several have mentioned it really is a personal choice, I was out on Saturday, beautiful natural trails in the Scottish Borders, I was clipped in, mate was on flats, we rode the same stuff no problems, he was faster on the techy stuff, but that's 'cause he's a better rider, I would like to, but I can't blame it on my pedals.


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## ThinAir (6 Aug 2013)

Ok then, sorry to resurrect this...

I am now in possession of my shiny new machine, and I absolutely love it. Can't believe what I have been missing out on. So much so, that I am looking at selling some of my stuff to finance buying a full sus.

However, in the meantime, I have settled upon one thing, and that is that I will be subscribing to the flat-pedals side of the argument. It's what I am comfortable with...

So what do you guys use? What do you recommend in the £50-80 bracket. And, what colour pedals should I get to go with a bike that is black... Is black the only option I should consider, or would something starkly contrasting look pretty cool, like some white ones?

All answers greatly appreciated! 

Cheers guys!


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## Tango (6 Aug 2013)

http://www.globalbike.co.uk/dmr-vault-pedal-9-16.html?gclid=CPDayKKT6bgCFcfJtAod8RUAeg

i use these and found them to be great, DMR V12 are good too, but i have had no experience of other pedals so cant offer any further thoughts


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