# Hydraulic Disc Brakes Some Info Needed



## MacB (5 Aug 2011)

Any general info useful but I do have some specific requirements around something I'm trying out. It means that the brake lever must have a two bolt or hinged clamp to work. So far the best I've come up with is the Deore M595, complete with rotors, for £120 from Merlin...these are the requirements I'm looking at, but I'd be happy to be educated on any of it:-

clamp - prefer hinged over two bolt as the least amount of protrusion above the bar the better, hence the Deore over the SLX

fluid - the hydraulic set I have is the Tektro Auriga that uses mineral oil, for some reason I'm drawn to mineral oil over DOT fluid but not based on any actual knowledge 

rotors - road use only so 160 front and rear should be fine, anything else I need to consider, ie are some makes more likely to be true, last longer, etc

pads - ease of replacement(tool less), availability, I naturally lean towards sintered as I consider rotors, as long as they're not too expensive, disposable items

maintenance - I'd like to get a set that come pre bled etc, just ready to go on bike. But if, and when maintenance is required I'd like it to be as easy as possible. Fit and forget would be nice though

performance - I have very limited hydraulic disc experience but remember this set is for road only use, with road tyres, so super dooper downhill capability not a requirement

lever blade - I don't see detail on length of blade but would like to get longer, rather than shorter, if possible, or can you change them after the fact? The brake position will be about 2/3rds of the way along a grip area to allow braking from front of grip area, the longer the blade the easier it will be from the rear position

value - I don't want to get anything uber expensive but I don't want to go so low end that I'm always hankering to upgrade or constantly having to tinker...the weight is not a factor within reason.

Oh, and anything else that I've missed out as I know naff all on this subject....cheers


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## spence (5 Aug 2011)

Buy Hope. Meet most but not all your requirements (DOT fluid) BUT they just work and keep on working.


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## GilesM (5 Aug 2011)

I'd agree about Hope brakes, however they will be £120 atleast an end, not £120 the set, at that price I would look at Avids, Chain reaction are doing the Avid Elixir 3 Disc Brake for 60 to 70 quid per end right now, I think the lever clamp is hinged, but best to confirm that first.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=54690

Avid Juicy 3s are also very good and a wee bit cheaper, but I think the lever clamp is just a single bolt clamp with no hinge, however it is a very slim lever so it might fit, depending on what you are up to.
As for your other thoughts/questions, I wouldn't worry about mineral oil or the normal DOT 4 or 5.1, both work well, and they will come already ready bleed, plug and play, they require very little maintenance, pads are the only things you ever need to replace and for the road, they will last a long time and are very easy to replace, a pair of thin nose pliers. If you ever need to bleed the brakes, just buy, steal or borrow the proper bleed kit and it really is a very easy job. The performance of all of the decent brand hydraulic disc braks is so good compared to good rim brakes that you will just think corr blimey they're really good. I have a couple of friends who use the Avid Juciy 3s for good off road stuff and they have no problems. Rotors, 160 or 180/185 will be fine. I had a set of Hope mono minis with160 front, 140 rear on a hardtail for a few years, on and off road, lots of good trails, and it was only as I got more confident on some off road descents that I was starting to get near their limit, this obviously depends on your weight, I'm around 11stone. For the length of the lever blade you'll have to go onto the manufacturers website and down load the tech stuff.

IHTH


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## MacB (5 Aug 2011)

Interesting, Hope may be beyond my price range, though I have bought a lot of their kit, I'll have a further look at them.

As said my knowledge is limited but my reading had me shying away from anything but the top level Avids, the lower models get a lot of bad press on forums, and MTBR in particular.

So no love for the Deores then? I've read nothing but good about them, in an all round performer sort of way.

Keep it coming folks I've got plenty of procrastination left in me yet


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## MacB (5 Aug 2011)

Oh, by the way, my other option is sticking with the BB7s and buying new levers with an open clamp design, I've found a few options. It's just the lever I liked was £40 a pair and I sort of weighed that up against £120 for a full set of Deores and then I can either use the BB7s elsewhere or sell them, as they're unused at present.


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## Muddy Ground (5 Aug 2011)

I went to buy Hope from my LBS and they had nothing but negative comments about them; seem to require constant fettling. Personally I find this hard to believe - I've had Hope in the past with no problems, and I've yet to hear a negative comment on the trail. The 595's sometimes get stick in the magazines, yet my riding friends are happy with the performance. The only negative with Shimano is that it seems it's easier to buy a whole new brake rather than repair an existing one - something that'll never be a problem with Hope.

For road use it has been commented that the winter salt isn't good for them at all, so you may not get away with them being fit and forget.

Personally I'd go for the Avids as mentioned or the Shimano units - more than capable on the road, even with a 160mm rotor fitted both ends. Would save a bunch of cash over the Hopes.


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## spence (5 Aug 2011)

There's nothing to fettle on Hopes, fit - correctly - and forget. Others I ride with who use(d) Avids do seem to have to keep fettling to keep them working. Some swapped out for Hopes.

The only others I've used were the original Deores on a couple of HT's, one set up as you describe. Yes very cheap a cheerful but worked. In them days they did not come assembled, don't know about now.

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I think the LBS just try and sell what they have in at the time as the best since sliced bread. A few years back went in one with every intention on purchasing a pair of XT's but came out with Mono M4's on recommendation after going through the stock room and not being able to put together the Shimanos. Glad I did.


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## Muddy Ground (5 Aug 2011)

Agree about the LBS - but in this instance they suggested the SLX at £40 cheaper, so seemed genuine. That is unless the SLX were hanging around unsold since last year! My original Hope C2 is still on my Clockwork, and hasn't even been bled in almost 15 years. The older Avids seemed a pain just to change the pads, not sure about the new ones as I've no experience with those.


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## dan_bo (5 Aug 2011)

In my limited experience of discs (i've tried a few different sets), if they're set up right they're good. Across the board. I'd go with the set that fits your other requirments best. 

You can pick up a set of hope C2s (brill-they've got grab point adjust) for next to nowt on ebay.


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## rusty bearing (6 Aug 2011)

There is a difference between mineral oils and Dot4 or 5.1 so here's where it gets technical

Dot 4 boiling point >260c reducing to >155c when wet. Will readily absorb moisture and damages paintwork.

dot 5.1 boiling point >260c reducing to >180c when wet, properties as before

Mineral oil boiling point >240c fairly constant. Less absorption of water. Less or no damage to paintwork.

Mineral should never be mixed with Dot fluid although 4 and 5.1 can be mixed the result having the properties of dot 4
Dot shelf life from manufacture 3 years
Mineral shelf life 5 years.

So overall I prefer mineral oils.................

Oh my brain hurts now!


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## MacB (6 Aug 2011)

Ta folks and Rusty, those that know me will recognise just how much I enjoyed your post...that info is now on my spreadsheet


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## MacB (6 Aug 2011)

1495037 said:


> With a graph?



could do I suppose, but that might seem a bit anal


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## rusty bearing (6 Aug 2011)

1495037 said:


> With a graph?



Annotated in different colour inks as well I trust?


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## rusty bearing (6 Aug 2011)

1495040 said:


> There is no need to take the piss.



Sorry not intended....


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## rusty bearing (7 Aug 2011)

No worries then


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## GilesM (8 Aug 2011)

Muddy Ground said:


> I went to buy Hope from my LBS and they had nothing but negative comments about them; seem to require constant fettling.



That is very odd, they really are fit and forget.


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## GilesM (8 Aug 2011)

rusty bearing said:


> There is a difference between mineral oils and Dot4 or 5.1 so here's where it gets technical
> 
> Dot 4 boiling point >260c reducing to >155c when wet. Will readily absorb moisture and damages paintwork.
> 
> ...



This is the actual spec for the DOT standards, but many of the DOT 4 and 5.1 fluids perform much better, the only real advantage of the mineral oil fluid is as you've mentioned, it doesn't damage the paint work. The shelf life is a bit irrelevant as once th seals on the bottles are broken then both types of fuild will start to absorb water.

One useful thing to remember is not to buy cycle brake fluid, by a bottle of DOT 4 for cars from Halfords, it'll be much cheaper.


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## Cubist (10 Aug 2011)

Those Deore should be just what you want. They are awesome VFM, and review really really well in the comics. They use mineral oil, and will come pre-bled and ready to fit. Cubette has an older pair on her Merida, and they are pretty good at stopping, with plenty of feel etc. The M595s are supposed to be even better, and generally the reviews all ask the question why anyone would want to spend more. 

I fitted Cubester's Ragley with Hope Tech M4s. They are awesome, and a thing of real beauty. They were a bit of a fiddle to fit, but have repaid that patience over and over again. 

How about Hayes Strokers MacB? Good solid performers. Fit and forget. I have them on the XC bike, and have not had to bleed them or fiddle in three years.


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## GrumpyGregry (10 Aug 2011)

Avid Elixir R is "fettle often" in another language.


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## MacB (10 Aug 2011)

Cubist said:


> Those Deore should be just what you want. They are awesome VFM, and review really really well in the comics. They use mineral oil, and will come pre-bled and ready to fit. Cubette has an older pair on her Merida, and they are pretty good at stopping, with plenty of feel etc. The M595s are supposed to be even better, and generally the reviews all ask the question why anyone would want to spend more.
> 
> I fitted Cubester's Ragley with Hope Tech M4s. They are awesome, and a thing of real beauty. They were a bit of a fiddle to fit, but have repaid that patience over and over again.
> 
> How about Hayes Strokers MacB? Good solid performers. Fit and forget. I have them on the XC bike, and have not had to bleed them or fiddle in three years.



Ta, to be honest if the M595 are good enough then they'll be the ones based on the hinged, low profile, clamp design. I may actually be wrapping over the levers with bar tape and the less the clamp protrudes the better.


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## MacB (10 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> Avid Elixir R is "fettle often" in another language.



they're off the list then


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## MacB (13 Aug 2011)

Could anyone please enlighten me on matchmaker setups pairing shifters to levers and what is available and what works with what, 9 speed ideally. Below I give the detail as to why for those interested in my semi insane ramblings  

Hmmm, still mooching and procrastinating, to better understand where I'm at, my road bike now sports the loop version of these bars:-

http://www.jonesbikes.com/h-bar.html

I can mount any setup I want behind the loop but I'm interested in what I can mount forward of it. The initial idea was an open/hinged brake lever clamp just above the loop. Thus allowing braking from the rear, middle and forward positions on the sides. Then use the new road thumbie from Pauls, with a hinge clamp, to mount bar end style shifters either by the stem or up on the corner of the loop ahead of the brake lever.

The Pauls thumbies aren't available yet so I was looking around and have found matchmakers, that allow you to mount shifter pods directly onto the brake mount. This would mean I could put shifter pods ahead of the loop, though the positioning would need to be carefully considered for access to the shifters. If I had the brakes mounted just ahead of the loop then the crossbar/flats section would probably interfere with access to the triggers. Having ridden the bars a bit now I find myself using the central and forward side positions in the main. So I'm considering whether I could mount the brake plus matchmaker setup well forward. This could clear any obstruction issues but would mean the rearward most position didn't have immediate braking.

However if I do it this way, and it works, then I would be shortening the rearward part of the bars anyway. Or if I come into some dosh I'd buy the Ti version that combines the Cut H-Bar sizing with the closed frontal aspect of the Loop version. This isn't currently listed on the site but is available.


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## Nordog (14 Aug 2011)

I had a major front brake problem with Hopes coming down off Allt Lwyd at speed, it failed all the fluid drained out of the piston. Never will I have them again.


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## Muddy Ground (15 Aug 2011)

My Shimano SLX had some internal problem whereby the seals in the lever failed - meant the piston at the caliper end locked on. I've replaced it with same for the rear, but for the front I'm sticking with Magura as they have proven reliable. Hope seem to be getting mixed reviews, which seems odd.


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## MacB (15 Aug 2011)

Muddy Ground said:


> My Shimano SLX had some internal problem whereby the seals in the lever failed - meant the piston at the caliper end locked on. I've replaced it with same for the rear, but for the front I'm sticking with Magura as they have proven reliable. Hope seem to be getting mixed reviews, which seems odd.



 Yep, it's enough to drive you insane, every recommendation I can find somewhere on the web saying don't touch with a bargepole. To be honest, overall, for lack of fettling, value for money and ease of setup, the Deore are doing rather well. I can still find critics but they seem to get jumped on by a wave of fans that have long useage with no issues.

As this set are for a road bike and road use only I'm kind of hoping that some of the disc brake woes, generally down to harsh MTB activity, won't be a problem.

But it also depends on how my sales go as I've now found a couple of cheaper options for v-brake levers with a hinged clamp. So I could just whack my MTB BB7s on, which I know work well and I've setup already. Due to intended use this may be the smartest option and leave the hydraulics as a potential future upgrade...it really was the hinged/open clamp that I needed above all else.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Aug 2011)

Dems funky bars MacB. Not sure I'd spend $120 on a pair but they do give you acres of space and loads of options for mounting stuff.

Avid Matchmakers. I have them on the MTB. They do what they say on the tin but provide ample evidence that I have more money than sense. Weightweenies love them though and if you have a remote poploc to accommodate on an mtb bar they make sense.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Aug 2011)

MacB said:


> Yep, it's enough to drive you insane, every recommendation I can find somewhere on the web saying don't touch with a bargepole. To be honest, overall, for lack of fettling, value for money and ease of setup, the Deore are doing rather well. I can still find critics but they seem to get jumped on by a wave of fans that have long useage with no issues.
> 
> As this set are for a road bike and road use only I'm kind of hoping that some of the disc brake woes, generally down to harsh MTB activity, won't be a problem.
> 
> But it also depends on how my sales go as I've now found a couple of cheaper options for v-brake levers with a hinged clamp. So I could just whack my MTB BB7s on, which I know work well and I've setup already. Due to intended use this may be the smartest option and leave the hydraulics as a potential future upgrade...it really was the hinged/open clamp that I needed above all else.



I honestly think hydro discs on a road going bike are overkill and must make it more than a little overbraked, just too easy to grab a big handful in traffic and lock things up. BB7's though? We know I love them.


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## MacB (15 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> I honestly think hydro discs on a road going bike are overkill and must make it more than a little overbraked, just too easy to grab a big handful in traffic and lock things up. BB7's though? We know I love them.



I think that's where I've reached, so I'll put the hydros I have on the new 29er and put the MTB BB7s on the road bike using the hinged clamp v-brake levers. 

When I revisit all my handlebar permutations I see that I'm ending up with something not a million miles away from butterfly bars with the controls on the sides. Something I attempted without success on the butterfly bars and finally led to me pursuing all these combinations. The Jones bars may seem expensive but it's small beans compared to the amount I've lost over barely used bars, stems, levers, shifters, brakes and cables


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Aug 2011)

You can't put a price on experience though.


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## MacB (15 Aug 2011)

GregCollins said:


> You can't put a price on experience though.



correction, I have deliberately avoided adding it up as I know it would come to the price of quite a nice bike  

Still, you do have a point, I know more about how things go together and how to maintain them than I ever would otherwise


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