# Blind corner overtaking



## cardiac case (13 Oct 2016)

I cycle mainly on unclassified roads through the villages of North Essex.
It seems that if a car/van catches me up as I approach, or am entering a blind bend it will overtake me,
irrespective of the possibility that something could be coming the other way. It happens almost every time I go out.
It's spoiling my ride, as at the first sound of a vehicle behind me all the possible scenarios start going through my head.
I know that on a country lane there isn't that much traffic, and the chances of meeting just at that exact spot 
is low, but even if it's 0.1% that's an accident every 1000 cars that pass.

I'm running out of clean underwear.

Paul G


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## mjr (13 Oct 2016)

How narrow is it? Can you ride far enough out to discourage them? The blind bend I ride most, I swing out before it, cutting the apex in an almost racing-style, which is unnecessary at my speeds, but discourages most overtakers.

Is there a soft landing possible on the verge? Or at least softer than a motor vehicle? Mine has ferns with a slight possibility of brambles or a drainage ditch. Still probably better than a car rebounding off oncoming traffic. Never needed it yet, though.

And please, the car/van isn't overtaking you by itself - it's a muppet motorist making it. Blame them.


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## G3CWI (13 Oct 2016)

It is so common that I am beginning to think that many cars are fitted with round-the-corner radar.


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## Lee_M (13 Oct 2016)

It's caused by the fact it's in Essex. Happened to me a lot there too, hardly ever happens now I'm in Cheshire


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## Markymark (13 Oct 2016)

Hold a line towards the centre.


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## coffeejo (13 Oct 2016)

Lee_M said:


> It's caused by the fact it's in Essex. Happened to me a lot there too, hardly ever happens now I'm in Cheshire


Definitely a thing in Somerset. Happens a lot. On the main road. At 60mph.


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## Bazzer (13 Oct 2016)

Lee_M said:


> It's caused by the fact it's in Essex. Happened to me a lot there too, hardly ever happens now I'm in Cheshire



You ought to come to my part. On a road I regularly use, there is a blind bend, complete with double unbroken lines down the middle of the road. It is so common for cars to overtake me there, that last night on my commute home I was shocked when a car hung back and kept a decent distance from me. It even waited until there was no chance of a close pass after the bend.
As I heard it begin to overtake, I gave the driver a  as a thank you.


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

At the end of this month, I'm getting the Garmin Edge 1000 aswell as the garmin varia radar that connects to it

Hoping that the radar will give me more peace of mind, especially when there are sharp bends on roads that I'm not familiar with


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## H-Bomb (13 Oct 2016)

Happens to me as well


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## newfhouse (13 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> At the end of this month, I'm getting the Garmin Edge 1000 aswell as the garmin varia radar that connects to it
> 
> Hoping that the radar will give me more peace of mind, especially when there are sharp bends on roads that I'm not familiar with


I hope you don't rely on the technology to the exclusion of good general awareness. Does the radar even work round blind bends?


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## Drago (13 Oct 2016)

Sure, it has special electromagnetic rays that bend around corners.


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

newfhouse said:


> I hope you don't rely on the technology to the exclusion of good general awareness. Does the radar even work round blind bends?



Jeez .... no need to be anti everything you don't know about

from what I've read, it detects cars from approx 100 meters away .... obviously not if the car is around a bend .... even if it does not detect a car, I will still check by looking ....

I also thought it was a gimmick, but people who have them regard them highly .... (read the reviews on Wiggle)

it's better than not having one, and costs £138 from wiggle .... this is for the radar unit on it's own which connects to the Garmin Edge 1000 and similar. If you don't have a Garmin edge that syncs to it, you can get the bundle package which has the seperate display unit which attaches to you handlebars. The bundle costs £239.99 from Wiggle. The radar unit is also a light

I commute over 200 miles a week, so this will come in handy..... if you are 'tight fisted' or don't do high miles, then use your neck to check


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## newfhouse (13 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> Jeez .... no need to be anti everything you don't know about
> 
> from what I've read, it detects cars from approx 100 meters away .... obviously not if the car is around a bend .... even if it does not detect a car, I will still check by looking ....
> 
> ...



Easy tiger. You posted in a thread about riding safely on roads with blind bends. I wondered whether your radar was a useful solution in these circumstances and suggested it may be a poor substitute for good road awareness and positioning. As for commuting 200 miles, well done I guess. Assuming similar road conditions it means you need to shoulder check nearly twice as many times as I do. Personally I wouldn't be relying on this device as a substitute but it's your choice.


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## cardiac case (13 Oct 2016)

mjr said:


> How narrow is it? Can you ride far enough out to discourage them? The blind bend I ride most, I swing out before it, cutting the apex in an almost racing-style, which is unnecessary at my speeds, but discourages most overtakers.
> 
> Is there a soft landing possible on the verge? Or at least softer than a motor vehicle? Mine has ferns with a slight possibility of brambles or a drainage ditch. Still probably better than a car rebounding off oncoming traffic. Never needed it yet, though.
> 
> And please, the car/van isn't overtaking you by itself - it's a muppet motorist making it. Blame them.





The road is wide enough for two cars providing both are on the side.
It's a left hander, high hawthorn hedge to the left, pair of cottages on the right with a fence on the road edge.
I'll take a photo tomorrow.


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

newfhouse said:


> Easy tiger. You posted in a thread about riding safely on roads with blind bends. I wondered whether your radar was a useful solution in these circumstances and suggested it may be a poor substitute for good road awareness and positioning. As for commuting 200 miles, well done I guess. Assuming similar road conditions it means you need to shoulder check nearly twice as many times as I do. Personally I wouldn't be relying on this device as a substitute but it's your choice.



thanks .... it will come in handy .... there is nothing worse than going around a bend, and looking behind you at the same time, especially if you are on unfamiliar roads with potholes. there's also this rearviz mirror thingy that I might buy as it's cheap:







http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RearViz-W...991246?hash=item2a721ae38e:g:KsUAAOSwQTVV~1zz


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## Wobblers (13 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> Jeez .... no need to be anti everything you don't know about
> 
> from what I've read, it detects cars from approx 100 meters away .... obviously not if the car is around a bend .... even if it does not detect a car, I will still check by looking ....
> 
> ...




While I hope it works out for you I've found that my ears are rather good for detecting rearward cars. They even work round corners! As a bonus, by listening to the engine, you can get a very good idea whether or not the driver's hanging back or just about to charge forwards.

And there is absolutely no subsitiute for _looking backwards_. Shoulder checks are a vital part of maintaining situational awareness. No technology is a substitute for that.


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## steveindenmark (13 Oct 2016)

I do high miles and I'm not tight fisted but I don't want any more electronics on my bike. I've managed to detect other traffic by using my eyes and ears for over 50 years. I cant see the point in an electronic radar to tell me what I already know.

If the electronics could help me avoid close passes or blind bend overtaking, it would be worth it. But it cannot.


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## Mugshot (13 Oct 2016)

I do like gadgets, but radars on a bike? It's an awful lot more expensive than a mirror, and I don't have one of those either.


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## newfhouse (13 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> there's also this rearviz mirror thingy that I might buy as it's cheap:


Very funny.


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## Tim Hall (13 Oct 2016)

Looks like a solution in search of a problem to me. What do you do with the information that there's a car 100m away on a straight road?


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I do high miles and I'm not tight fisted but I don't want any more electronics on my bike. I've managed to detect other traffic by using my eyes and ears for over 50 years. I cant see the point in an electronic radar to tell me what I already know.
> 
> If the electronics could help me avoid close passes or blind bend overtaking, it would be worth it. But it cannot.



each to their own .... you been cycling for 50 years and still have good ears...

I'm also old, and anything that will make my cycle journey more pleasant and much safer is on my 'radar screen'


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## Tim Hall (13 Oct 2016)

Anyway, @cardiac case , sorry to hijack your thread. As mentioned up there a bit, ride away from the edge of the road to discourage drivers from overtaking when they shouldn't. And if they still do it gives you space to bail out into if it all goes horribly wrong.


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Looks like a solution in search of a problem to me. What do you do with the information that there's a car 100m away on a straight road?



I become aware that a car is approaching, so if there's a pothole or road debris, or if I need to overtake another cyclist, I will slow down and not veer to the centre of the lane... even if I had the radar, I would still check, but this takes some of the stress away.

It's like having a bike satnav ..... you don't need one as you can use maps, but it makes life easier and the journey more pleasant

I don't have the radar thingy yet, but will update when I get it.


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## smutchin (13 Oct 2016)

newfhouse said:


> I wondered whether your radar was a useful solution in these circumstances and suggested it may be a poor substitute for good road awareness and positioning.



Your mistake is assuming _substitute_ rather than _supplement_.



McWobble said:


> I've found that my ears are rather good for detecting rearward cars.



You are a bat AICMFP.

Yes, sound does travel around corners, but human ears generally are very poor detectors of sound and not to be relied upon as accurate sonar devices. I find that especially in windy conditions, my rearward hearing is very unreliable - I often don't hear cars behind me (though I may be aware of them through looking).



> And there is absolutely no subsitiute for _looking backwards_. Shoulder checks are a vital part of maintaining situational awareness. No technology is a substitute for that.



You too are assuming _substitute_ rather than _supplement_. Personally, I spend most of my time on the bike looking ahead - anything more than a brief rearward glance will compromise your ability to proceed forwards safely. I don't use a Varia myself but I can see that they might be a useful supplementary aid for those of us who don't have a second pair of eyes in the back of our heads.


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## steveindenmark (13 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> each to their own .... you been cycling for 50 years and still have good ears...
> 
> I'm also old, and anything that will make my cycle journey more pleasant and much safer is on my 'radar screen'


I think its something else to take your eyes off the road ahead. The guy in the clip had 3 screens to distract him. But you are free to spend your money as you wish.


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## NorthernDave (13 Oct 2016)

Take middle of the lane.
Leave the driver no alternative but to fully cross the centre line. Same when passing traffic islands.
If they think they can get through, lots will push past - deny them the opportunity and they will wait, even if they do it grudgingly.
At least if they get too close, you'll have a bit of wriggle room to move into on the left.


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## smutchin (13 Oct 2016)

Anyway, to get back on topic, I have the same problem as the OP down here in East Kent - maniacs overtaking on blind bends, often at high speed. In particular the blind bend that is just a couple of hundred metres down the road from my house, and therefore not one I can easily avoid without adding several miles to my 3 mile route into town. It's ruddy terrifying. Even if you do ride well out into the road, many of them will still overtake you.

I have also had the equally terrifying experience of coming round a blind bend to be faced with an overtaking car coming the other way. 

I fear the worst is ultimately inevitable but what can you do?


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## newfhouse (13 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> Your mistake is assuming _substitute_ rather than _supplement_.


I don't think I'm mistaken.


dim said:


> if you are 'tight fisted' or don't do high miles, then use your neck to check


I read this as substitution, but I could be wrong. Either way, it's not a solution for the OP.


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## smutchin (13 Oct 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> The guy in the clip had 3 screens to distract him.



To be fair, it's a demo. I'd be surprised if he rides with all three devices active all the time. And even if he does, you can't just assume he's looking at them at times when he should be looking at the road (I sometimes go for miles without looking at my Garmin).


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## NorthernDave (13 Oct 2016)

McWobble said:


> While I hope it works out for you I've found that my ears are rather good for detecting rearward cars. They even work round corners! As a bonus, by listening to the engine, you can get a very good idea whether or not the driver's hanging back or just about to charge forwards.
> 
> And there is absolutely no subsitiute for _looking backwards_. Shoulder checks are a vital part of maintaining situational awareness. No technology is a substitute for that.



Unless it's one of those new fangled electric cars that sneak up on you like a silent assassin. They really are dangerous.


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## steveindenmark (13 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> To be fair, it's a demo. I'd be surprised if he rides with all three devices active all the time. And even if he does, you can't just assume he's looking at them at times when he should be looking at the road (I sometimes go for miles without looking at my Garmin).


But if you are like me, there are also times where you concentrate on it a wee bit too much.


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## smutchin (13 Oct 2016)

newfhouse said:


> I read this as substitution, but I could be wrong.



He also said: "even if it does not detect a car, I will still check by looking ...."

Probably best not to judge a person's riding style/ability based on throwaway comments on the internet.



> Either way, it's not a solution for the OP.



Agreed.


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## smutchin (13 Oct 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> But if you are like me, there are also times where you concentrate on it a wee bit too much.



I wouldn't dream of admitting to such a thing.


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

steveindenmark said:


> I think its something else to take your eyes off the road ahead. The guy in the clip had 3 screens to distract him. But you are free to spend your money as you wish.



the video is from DC Rainmaker .... he tests bike gadgets and is highly regarded on many forums .... he has several bikes, and I assume that when he is not testing gadgets, and goes out on a serious ride, he only takes the accessories needed for that particular ride


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## aferris2 (13 Oct 2016)

You've got to ride further out from the edge of the road. 
I have several totally blind bends on my commute. For these I'm usually almost on the centre line if there is one. If not I will be right in the middle so there's no room to get past. It gives me a better view of what might be coming towards me and it makes the driver behind have to go completely onto the other side of the road to get past. As that will put them directly facing anything that might be coming in the other direction, they tend to hold back.
Sometimes this doesn't work and I can usually sense when they are still going for the overtake - listen to the engine and tyre noise. Look behind so that they know you have seen them and block with your right arm straight out to the side with palm facing backwards to signal "Stop". Now they are faced with not quite half the road width to squeeze into. Don't leave it till the last second though. Be assertive and get in with the block (when you need it) before they have fully committed to the pass.
When you think it's safe for an overtake, pull back towards the side to give then room to pass safely (on your terms). Oh, and give them a friendly wave of thanks as they go past - it confuses the hell out of them!
If it's a commute, you and the car drivers are doing the same thing every day at the same time. It doesn't take long for them to learn what's going on and will start to hold back for the few seconds needed.


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## dim (13 Oct 2016)

[QUOTE 4510246, member: 9609"]Just using my ears I can tell if its a car or lorry, and there is good indication to the manner of how its been driven, its a good sign when you hear the engine go onto the over-run, (it is likely they have seen you and are preparing to pass)
I would have thought watching a screen for the appearance of a white dot may cause more dangers in not watching the road ahead.[/QUOTE]

Garmin have that covered (links to the radar gadget aswell):...little screen that connects to your sunglasses .... trying to convince my wife to buy me one for christmas


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## Shut Up Legs (13 Oct 2016)

McWobble said:


> While I hope it works out for you I've found that my ears are rather good for detecting rearward cars. They even work round corners! As a bonus, by listening to the engine, you can get a very good idea whether or not the driver's hanging back or just about to charge forwards.
> 
> And there is absolutely no subsitiute for _looking backwards_. Shoulder checks are a vital part of maintaining situational awareness. No technology is a substitute for that.


I find a mirror works pretty well. The mirror, combined with me listening to the traffic and my general situtational awareness, keeps me safe.


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## cardiac case (13 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> Anyway, to get back on topic, I have the same problem as the OP down here in East Kent - maniacs overtaking on blind bends, often at high speed. In particular the blind bend that is just a couple of hundred metres down the road from my house, and therefore not one I can easily avoid without adding several miles to my 3 mile route into town. It's ruddy terrifying. Even if you do ride well out into the road, many of them will still overtake you.
> 
> I have also had the equally terrifying experience of coming round a blind bend to be faced with an overtaking car coming the other way.
> 
> I fear the worst is ultimately inevitable but what can you do?





Exactly my thoughts


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## cardiac case (13 Oct 2016)

Tim Hall said:


> Anyway, @cardiac case , sorry to hijack your thread. As mentioned up there a bit, ride away from the edge of the road to discourage drivers from overtaking when they shouldn't. And if they still do it gives you space to bail out into if it all goes horribly wrong.




I was a metre out, so effectively in the middle of my side of the road, and he still came past.
Not a small car either, a Passat Estate. I have no doubt that had another car appeared coming towards us
he would have cut back to the left and taken me out.


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## cardiac case (14 Oct 2016)

The photo is a representation of my view.
At this point I was conscious of the overtaking car being level with my back wheel.
It was half way past at the point where the nose of the silver car in the drive is.

Paul G


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## MontyVeda (14 Oct 2016)

Have you tried signalling to them to not overtake?


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## Drago (14 Oct 2016)

Best thing you can do is brake firmly once they've started the move. It allows them past asap and minimises the change el chumpo will have a collision, and if he does it maximises the space between you and them.


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## Inertia (14 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> Best thing you can do is brake firmly once they've started the move. It allows them past asap and minimises the change el chumpo will have a collision, and if he does it maximises the space between you and them.


This is what I would do but for the reason it gets me out of the way in case he does run into trouble. Its tempting to hope they will meet something coming and pay the price for their stupidty but the person coming the other way would pay the price too.


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## cardiac case (14 Oct 2016)

MontyVeda said:


> Have you tried signalling to them to not overtake?




Only once. A red rag to a bull that was.

My ears are still ringing from his hooter.


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## Bazzer (14 Oct 2016)

Drago said:


> Best thing you can do is brake firmly once they've started the move. It allows them past asap and minimises the change el chumpo will have a collision, and if he does it maximises the space between you and them.



Just make sure there isn't another tw@t following him.


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## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2016)

cardiac case said:


> The photo is a representation of my view.
> At this point I was conscious of the overtaking car being level with my back wheel.
> It was half way past at the point where the nose of the silver car in the drive is.
> 
> ...




If someone is overtaking round that corner then you are leaving them too much space. I would be right in the middle of the road, preventing any overtake but moving in as the apex comes up so I don't get splatted by an oncoming vehicle. By doing this I should hopefully hold people behind me for both our safety and if the worse comes to the worse I have space to bail into.


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## Phil Fouracre (14 Oct 2016)

Interesting thread, this has been the subject of much discussion between us recently. Riding on mainly narrowish roads locally, as in the incident posted, no white lines, we see a lot of this happening. Yes I always try keeping out sufficiently to stop daft overtakes, but, it can sometimes not deter them, no matter how far out you ride. How do you judge if the driver is sufficiently bright to work out what you are doing, or, a complete psychopath - there really is no way of knowing, decide what your life is worth :-(
I've been 'playing a game' recently, on some of our local roads, where you can have a car approaching from behind, yes, and listening to engine and tyres to work out their intention. If you can then hear a car coming towards you, the aim is to time the twunt behind you deciding to push their way past on a blind bend just in time to meet the opposing car!! The first time it happened it really did surprise me, and, I put it down to just a 'lucky' coincidence, now, it seems to be happening more often! Any suggestions as to why? Driving and anticipation skills really getting worse?


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## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2016)

Phil Fouracre said:


> I've been 'playing a game' recently, on some of our local roads, where you can have a car approaching from behind, yes, and listening to engine and tyres to work out their intention. If you can then hear a car coming towards you, the aim is to time the twunt behind you deciding to push their way past on a blind bend just in time to meet the opposing car!!



I would say that only one person is going to get hurt in this situation and it is not likely to be the driver that caused the problem.


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## smutchin (14 Oct 2016)

Milkfloat said:


> If someone is overtaking round that corner then you are leaving them too much space.



Not necessarily. I think the only way you can absolutely guarantee no one trying to overtake on a bend like that is to ride so far out from the kerb that you risk hitting oncoming traffic yourself. And even then there will probably be some muppet who tries it on.

This is a blind bend near my home, so one that I ride through regularly:






I usually ride well away from the kerb through this bend - such that it would be impossible for a car to overtake without crossing the solid white line, which as any fule kno is not only dangerous, it's illegal. And since the bend is at the bottom of a hill, I'm usually doing upwards of 20mph when I hit the bend (on a road with a 40 limit).

And yet still drivers still insist on overtaking.

When coming the other way, I have also been faced with overtaking drivers well over on my side of the road as I reach the bend. Bloody terrifying. And there is absolutely nothing I can do to prevent them doing that.

Here's another bend further along the same road:





It's not clear from the picture but the road gets quite narrow through the bend, and it is sharper than it looks too. It strikes me as utter madness that anyone would overtake on this bend - especially knowing that traffic coming the other way is coming down a steep hill and often travelling well in excess of the 40 limit.

There is no way it is safe to overtake a cyclist on this bend, regardless of where they are positioned, whether they're hugging the kerb or out in primary position. 

And yet idiots do overtake.

In theory, I would be happy to ride right out in the middle of the road to discourage them, but I'd be worried about being hit by overtakers coming in the opposite direction.

You may not be surprised to learn that both bends are notorious locally as accident blackspots.


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## mythste (14 Oct 2016)

I really do feel for some of you guys and I simply can't fathom the idea that this is such a frequent issue for you.

I've covered almost 4000 miles this year (I know that's a drop in the ocean for some, but still some hours on the road!) and even when I haven't taken the initiative to take a strong primary cars typically wait until it's safe to pass before doing so. I can literally only remember one incident in the last year when I felt anything like endangered by another driver, and thinking back, even then I could have been more pro-active about stopping it happening in the first instance.

I really do hope you all have many a safe ride from here on!


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## smutchin (14 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I really do feel for some of you guys and I simply can't fathom the idea that this is such a frequent issue for you.



You may just be lucky not to have any particularly bad spots on the roads you ride regularly. Or live in an area populated by more considerate drivers - IMO, it's not the roads that are the problem, it's the people who use them. And round here, we have more than our fair share of aggressive and selfish drivers.

The two examples in my last post are by far the worst I have to deal with. Unfortunately, they are both within a mile of my home, so it's hard for me to avoid them by taking a different route without adding several miles to my journey.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2016)

Lee_M said:


> It's caused by the fact it's in Essex. Happened to me a lot there too, hardly ever happens now I'm in Cheshire


Cheshire must be bucking the trend!
"Deaths are disproportionately likely to occur on rural roads: in 2013, they carried 53 per cent of traffic, but accounted for around two thirds of road deaths. A similar split has been seen over the last decade. Mile-for-mile, the risk of death on rural roads is around 1.7 times that on urban roads and around 2 per cent of reported accidents on rural roads are fatal, compared to less than 1 per cent in urban areas"
Extracted from .....
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/358040/rrcgb2013-01.pdf
Although the data is from 2013, that year was no different to any other.


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## snorri (14 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I really do feel for some of you guys and I simply can't fathom the idea that this is such a frequent issue for you.


 It depends on type of roads people are using and proportion of time spent on the different types.


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## Tanis8472 (14 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> I become aware that a car is approaching, so if there's a pothole or road debris, or if I need to overtake another cyclist, I will slow down and not veer to the centre of the lane... even if I had the radar, I would still check, but this takes some of the stress away.
> 
> It's like having a bike satnav ..... you don't need one as you can use maps, but it makes life easier and the _*journey more pleasant*_
> 
> I don't have the radar thingy yet, but will update when I get it.



I find it the complete opposite no matter what mode of transport.
I find myself telling the satnav to f off quite often lol


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## dim (14 Oct 2016)

Tanis8472 said:


> I find it the complete opposite no matter what mode of transport.
> I find myself telling the satnav to f off quite often lol



Thats because you know where you are going ..... I have no sense of direction, and even get lost in my village.


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## mythste (14 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> You may just be lucky not to have any particularly bad spots on the roads you ride regularly. Or live in an area populated by more considerate drivers - IMO, it's not the roads that are the problem, it's the people who use them. And round here, we have more than our fair share of aggressive and selfish drivers.
> 
> The two examples in my last post are by far the worst I have to deal with. Unfortunately, they are both within a mile of my home, so it's hard for me to avoid them by taking a different route without adding several miles to my journey.



I suppose I'm used to commuting through cities where there are a reasonably large proportion of people who know to be on edge. My weekend riding usually takes me deep into countryside where the same attitude probably applies.

Suburban miss-placed confidence perhaps? I guess if Captain 9-5 knows he can make it home in 26 minutes in his rep-mobile from the business park office to home he's going to presume he knows the roads and a cyclist might "pop up" on otherwise memorized traffic?


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## smutchin (14 Oct 2016)

mythste said:


> I suppose I'm used to commuting through cities where there are a reasonably large proportion of people who know to be on edge. My weekend riding usually takes me deep into countryside where the same attitude probably applies.



Overtaking on blind bends is very much a suburban/rural problem. Riding in cities brings a whole different set of idiotic behaviours.



> Suburban miss-placed confidence perhaps? I guess if Captain 9-5 knows he can make it home in 26 minutes in his rep-mobile from the business park office to home he's going to presume he knows the roads and a cyclist might "pop up" on otherwise memorized traffic?



Yeah, there's probably something in that. If you drive the same route to and from work every day, know where the bends are and generally know what to expect traffic-wise, you will become complacent and maybe take risks that you wouldn't take on roads you don't know so well. 

Such complacency always leaves you at risk of being caught out eventually.


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## Tanis8472 (14 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> Thats because you know where you are going ..... I have no sense of direction, and even get lost in my village.



Nope, no idea most of the time. Its called using a map and the missus to read it lol


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## mythste (14 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> Overtaking on blind bends is very much a suburban/rural problem. Riding in cities brings a whole different set of idiotic behaviours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Complacency! That's the word I was looking for throughout that entire post!

TFIF.

I really do wish you all safe riding, I can see how frustrating and dangerous that can be.


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## Wobblers (14 Oct 2016)

smutchin said:


> Your mistake is assuming _substitute_ rather than _supplement_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are _assuming _far too much. You will fail your driving test if you do not use the rear mirror sufficiently. Why do you think that is? Do you think that making a lifesaver check over your shoulder before turning right is optional just because you don't have eyes on the back of your head?

My point - I should have made it clearer - is that there are a number of ways to gain some awareness of what's going on behind you. They are not mutually exclusive! In fact, it'd be fair to say that they're all _supplementary_. There is nothing wrong in using all - indeed, that is merely sensible. If NorthernDave finds the Varia of use, more power to him. And I for one will be very interested to hear how you get on with it, @NorthernDave. (Especially with those new fangled electric cars!)


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## Wobblers (14 Oct 2016)

cardiac case said:


> The photo is a representation of my view.
> At this point I was conscious of the overtaking car being level with my back wheel.
> It was half way past at the point where the nose of the silver car in the drive is.
> 
> ...



That might be a good place for the strategic wobble manoeuvre. If you make a few wobbles before you get to the corner, you'll find that motorists are more likely to hang back. They're afraid that you'll wobble into them. 

The sad fact being, they're more afraid of you scraping the paintwork on their precious car than clobbering the soft squishy human in their hurry to get to the next set of traffic lights...


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## dim (14 Oct 2016)

this is where the radar will come in handy:







if you use you neck to check .... you will need physio for several days


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## NorthernDave (14 Oct 2016)

McWobble said:


> If NorthernDave finds the Varia of use, more power to him. And I for one will be very interested to hear how you get on with it, @NorthernDave. (Especially with those new fangled electric cars!)



Sorry, it's @dim who is looking at buying a Varia, not me. 
As a proud Yorkshireman, there is no chance of me spending £180+ on a rear light, no matter how fancy it is


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## smutchin (14 Oct 2016)

McWobble said:


> You are _assuming _far too much.



No, I've not assumed anything, but we're talking at cross purposes so there's no point continuing this. It's off-topic anyway.


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## Wobblers (14 Oct 2016)

NorthernDave said:


> Sorry, it's @dim who is looking at buying a Varia, not me.
> As a proud Yorkshireman, there is no chance of me spending £180+ on a rear light, no matter how fancy it is



Doh! Sorry for the foul accusations on your worthy money-wise Yorkshire self. 



smutchin said:


> No, I've not assumed anything, but we're talking at cross purposes so there's no point continuing this. It's off-topic anyway.



I think we're actually in agreement - that you shouldn't and can't rely on just the one thing. But, yes, there's little point tkaing things more off-topic. I'll shut up now...


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## Milkfloat (14 Oct 2016)

dim said:


> this is where the radar will come in handy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It won't work on these as it can only see in a straight line.


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## aferris2 (14 Oct 2016)

cardiac case said:


> The photo is a representation of my view.
> ]


Obviously I don't know the area, but from the photo, I would be almost on the opposite side of the road coming up to that bend (somewhere around the shiny part 2/3 across), but cut into the LHS round the bend itself. There is no way anyone in 4 wheels could get past in that position. As you come up to the bend (assuming it is straight beforehand) you look behind and signal to any approaching driver to stay behind. Don't wait until they are already on top of you. If they were already following then your position is forcing them to stay there.
Use eyes and ears to detect if there is anything coming towards you. You would be aiming for the inside of the bend anyway, so if something does appear, you're already heading for safety.



smutchin said:


> This is a blind bend near my home, so one that I ride through regularly


That's a horrible road. Did it once this summer and managed to just about keep control by riding on the off-side track round those bends. The hills are pretty nasty though. I much preferred Hackington Rd (but that was back in the 80's)

... just my thoughts.


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## smutchin (14 Oct 2016)

aferris2 said:


> I much preferred Hackington Rd (but that was back in the 80's)



I would have to ride along the A290 to get to Hackington Road. Besides which, it's a narrow, twisty NSL road, and usually quite busy. Utterly horrible to ride along - I can imagine it was quite different in the 80s.

The A290 is in some ways better than it used to be - they reduced the speed limit to 40 and they even put mobile speed cameras out to enforce it occasionally. The council recently installed some rumble strips ahead of the bend near my home but they then removed them about a month later - I have no idea why, probably complaints from drivers who resented not being able to treat the road like a race track. 

As I said before, I do ride well out towards the centre of the road when going through those bends, but still get idiots overtaking me. The road is wide enough that it's impossible to stop anyone overtaking who is determined to do so. I've thought about putting my arm out to signal them to stay behind but I would just get grief for it.


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## Donger (14 Oct 2016)

Loads of drivers these days seem to have little or no idea how to drive on winding country lanes with hedges ... probably because they learned to drive in towns and cities. When I was learning to drive, my dad taught me on the lanes of the Severnside villages of Gloucestershire. The best piece of advice he ever gave me was to "_drive at a speed where you can stop in *less* than half the distance you can see_", (as you have to allow for someone coming the other way driving faster than you). Over the years I must have narrowly avoided head-on smashes around here on half a dozen occasions when meeting clueless muppets speeding around blind bends towards me. Long after he passed away, my dad has saved me from a few nasty crashes with his words of wisdom.


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## mjr (18 Oct 2016)

McWobble said:


> The sad fact being, they're more afraid of you scraping the paintwork on their precious car than clobbering the soft squishy human in their hurry to get to the next set of traffic lights...


I'm not convinced some brain-switched-off motorists even register that a cyclist is a human. More like that we're bollards or something. Looking back and showing a face seems to help... and a glare is sadly often appropriate on the approach to blind bends!


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## Drago (18 Oct 2016)

Donger said:


> Loads of drivers these days seem to have little or no idea how to drive on winding country lanes with hedges ... probably because they learned to drive in towns and cities. When I was learning to drive, my dad taught me on the lanes of the Severnside villages of Gloucestershire. The best piece of advice he ever gave me was to "_drive at a speed where you can stop in *less* than half the distance you can see_", (as you have to allow for someone coming the other way driving faster than you). Over the years I must have narrowly avoided head-on smashes around here on half a dozen occasions when meeting clueless muppets speeding around blind bends towards me. Long after he passed away, my dad has saved me from a few nasty crashes with his words of wisdom.


Hello Son. Didn't know you were on here m'boy.


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## MontyVeda (18 Oct 2016)

cardiac case said:


> Only once. A red rag to a bull that was.
> 
> My ears are still ringing from his hooter.


On certain winding lanes i can see further around the RH corners than the driver of the car behind me. I frequently give them the 'flat hand'* to advise them not to overtake. Not that easy anyhow since i'm in the middle of the fecking road... then I'll pull to the left and wave them on when it's clear. More often then not, they give me a little wave after passing.

*no eye contact, no flapping, just a simple signal


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## hatler (18 Oct 2016)

I do that. And I try to make it as obvious as possible that I am peering round the corner (craning my neck, leaning to the right, that sort of stuff) which gives the impression that I am trying to help the driver. I too generally get a wave of acknowledgement when I do this.


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## Mugshot (18 Oct 2016)

I never wave vehicles past and I never automatically overtake when signaled to do so by a cyclist when I'm driving. There have been numerous occasions where a cyclist has flapped his arm to encourage me to pass only for another vehicle to appear coming towards us. In my experience it seems far more likely that the cyclist wants me gone as opposed to them being helpful. Far better in my opinion for you to concentrate on what you're supposed to be doing and let the other party concentrate on what they're supposed to be doing.


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## Inertia (18 Oct 2016)

Mugshot said:


> I never wave vehicles past and I never automatically overtake when signaled to do so by a cyclist when I'm driving. There have been numerous occasions where a cyclist has flapped his arm to encourage me to pass only for another vehicle to appear coming towards us. In my experience it seems far more likely that the cyclist wants me gone as opposed to them being helpful. Far better in my opinion for you to concentrate on what you're supposed to be doing and let the other party concentrate on what they're supposed to be doing.


This is pretty much my view on it, I dont tell drivers what to do because I know nothing about them. They may be happy hanging back because they arent a confident driver, they could be turning at the next junction or driveway. I could also wave them into trouble so Id rather let them take care of themselves

For the same reason I ignore drivers who wave me on, I will move when Im comfortable moving. In a flip side of your experience, the driver usually just wants me out of the way and may not consider how fast or slow I can move.


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## mjr (18 Oct 2016)

Inertia said:


> For the same reason I ignore drivers who wave me on, I will move when Im comfortable moving. In a flip side of your experience, the driver usually just wants me out of the way and may not consider how fast or slow I can move.


Also, motorists waving me across a road have occasionally failed to notice another motorist overtaking them without due caution. You have to make your own assessments, even on group rides when it's another cyclist shouting "clear" - I have heard of riders mistakenly thinking that shout is to signal that they've cleared the junction, while others think it means it's clear to proceed


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## Randomnerd (19 Oct 2016)

Interesting thread, this. Most of my recent riding has been around local winding country roads, and I've come across so many drivers taking chances on blind bends that I've found myself riding obstructively at the hotspots. As a newcomer to road cycling, I'm uncomfortable about this new role trying to educate the hasty drivers behind, where I may be putting myself in greater danger. Found myself checking for escape spots in the hedges. Adds to the gigantic sum total of all the stuff you have to experience that is the massive learning-curve of cycling.


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## HLaB (20 Oct 2016)

My last couple of commutes I've took the most direct route, its a slightly busier rural road and the amount of muppets wanting to have a head on is unbelievable. I feel sorry for the opposing driver potentially killed by their recklessness, so far they've managed to stop but its getting a bit close for my liking I'm going to go back to my other routes


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## cardiac case (20 Oct 2016)

HLaB said:


> My last couple of commutes I've took the most direct route, its a slightly busier rural road and the amount of muppets wanting to have a head on is unbelievable. I feel sorry for the opposing driver potentially killed by their recklessness, so far they've managed to stop but its getting a bit close for my liking I'm going to go back to my other routes





My sentiments exactly.

As long as they don't hit me I don't care; but you do have to feel for the driver coming the other way, who is suddenly confronted
with Mad Max (just as likely Maxine) on the wrong side of the road.

Being self employed I sometimes pinch an hour at the end of the afternoon and that's when the 4x4's are out on the school runs.
I call them the invincibles.

Paul G


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## jarlrmai (21 Oct 2016)

The issue inst that they'll have a head on, it's that they'll swerve into you to avoid the head on.


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## Shut Up Legs (22 Oct 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> The issue inst that they'll have a head on, it's that they'll swerve into you to avoid the head on.


Yes, that's a really screwed-up sense of priorities, when other options exist, such as braking to stay behind the cyclist, or just not going too damn fast in the first place!


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## cardiac case (22 Oct 2016)

It 's happened again.
400m from home, long hill with a left almost at the top. A metre high bank my side and a metre of flat grass/mud on the other.
A car comes up from behind and overtakes me without lifting off.
The car coming towards me takes to the grass/mud to avoid him/her.

Both cars were doing about 40 and it was over in a second.
I didn't even have time to **** myself. 

Paul G


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## HLaB (22 Oct 2016)

jarlrmai said:


> The issue inst that they'll have a head on, it's that they'll swerve into you to avoid the head on.


I know what you mean, had to make a timely jump from the bike about 10 years ago to avoid just that but the ones I've had since have gave me plenty of room but have nearly had a head on the other 'innocent' driver is an issue for me too.


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## david k (27 Nov 2016)

cardiac case said:


> I cycle mainly on unclassified roads through the villages of North Essex.
> It seems that if a car/van catches me up as I approach, or am entering a blind bend it will overtake me,
> irrespective of the possibility that something could be coming the other way. It happens almost every time I go out.
> It's spoiling my ride, as at the first sound of a vehicle behind me all the possible scenarios start going through my head.
> ...



Yes this happens to me also in the north west.

What happens if a car is coming the opposite way? I guess they will pull in and knock me off rather than crash their car


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## mjr (6 Dec 2016)

david k said:


> What happens if a car is coming the opposite way? I guess they will pull in and knock me off rather than crash their car


Yep. I've seen it happen: a Motor Parts Direct van, overtaking on a blind right-hander, met an oncoming car, so rather than stop and/or pull in behind, they sped up, pulled in and forced a rider in front of me to crash into the verge.

And if a motorist coming the other way is overtaking blind on a bend you're rounding, they'll stay out and crash head-on into you rather than what they're overtaking, unless you leave the road - which has happened to me, putting me in a hedge.

Always think about your escape route on blind bends, even if no motorist is visible. Spot the softest spot to ride onto/into and where you'd jump from the bike. It sucks that it's useful to do that.


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