# Brompton T-Line is here



## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

Just realized that Brompton had kindly asked in the description of the stream not to publicly share infos from it  - they only had in the description and as I was joining late and via a link from $somewhere, I missed that part. They plan to publicly announce the bike tomorrow, so I will repost the detailed info once this has happened. 
Official Launch has happened yesterday, so here are the details posted again:


Brompton just launched the T-Line via Youtubestream.


First things first:


7,45 kg (singlespeed, no mudguards)
8 kg (derailleur gears, mudguards)


Only thing not changed are the brakes.
Full titanium frame
Built in Sheffield at Brompton-Fletcher/C.W. Fletcher
CAD-Designed, shaped of grams based on force simulations
parts of the frame casted rather then welded (around the bottom bracket i.e.)
Integrated headset
carbon fork
carbon bars 31,8mm clamping, 560mm width
clamping plate for the bars
seatpost 0,3 stainless-steel surounding a carbon post
no folding pedal but quick release pedals
derailleur just 65g (rear frame and dreailleur possibly identical to P-Line)
Carbon cranks
direct mount chainwheel
tubolito tubes

Price:
GBP 3750 (singlespeed w/o mudguards)
GBP 3950 (geared with mudguards)

Availablity limited (ballot principle for the time being)







PS: People from Singapore went pretty mad in the youtube-chat "where to buy? Take all my money"-style.


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## Tenkaykev (18 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> Brompton just launched the T-Line via Youtubestream.
> First things first:
> 
> 7,45 kg (singlespeed, no mudguards)
> ...


Just got an email from Brompton with a link to buy, I was lucky in the Ballot 🤔


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## yoho oy (18 Jan 2022)

Ridiculously expensive. Cost like not that bad used car or nice brand new motorcycle. What people do in Singapore does not worry me at all. Do they even have enough roads to bike in their city-country?


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## T4tomo (18 Jan 2022)

Tenkaykev said:


> Just got an email from Brompton with a link to buy, I was lucky in the Ballot 🤔


buy it for £4k, sell it for £6k, although not to yoho


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## Justinitus (18 Jan 2022)

T4tomo said:


> buy it for £4k, sell it for £6k, although not to yoho


You have to pick it up in person from Brompton Junction London. From what I’ve heard, Brompton are not giving end users the boxes and the bike will be registered to you pre-handover - I guess in an attempt to stop reselling abroad.


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## Justinitus (18 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Ridiculously expensive. Cost like not that bad used car or nice brand new motorcycle. What people do in Singapore does not worry me at all. Do they even have enough roads to bike in their city-country?


Yes, a huge network of dedicated cycleways all over SG. Bromptons are hugely popular there - in fact, in many Asian countries.


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## berlinonaut (18 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Ridiculously expensive. Cost like not that bad used car or nice brand new motorcycle.


Rather expectable and reasonable for a high quality ti bike I'd say. Look at what other ti bikes cost. Given the cost of a P-Line and a weight saving of 2kg over the P-line the price difference seems to be well in the 1-2€/g rule, that you typically pay for weight saving. What would a car be good for when I want a folding bike? Have you looked what posh bikes cost today? You can easily buy a racing bike or a cargo bike for 10 grand and more. 


yoho oy said:


> What people do in Singapore does not worry me at all. Do they even have enough roads to bike in their city-country?


A bit colonialistic and culturally ignorant...


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## mitchibob (18 Jan 2022)

Now, if they'd just have had an option for the 4-speed plus a Classified Powershift Hub ;-)


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## Ming the Merciless (18 Jan 2022)

That’s a very keen weight. Looks good.


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## cougie uk (18 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Ridiculously expensive. Cost like not that bad used car or nice brand new motorcycle. What people do in Singapore does not worry me at all. Do they even have enough roads to bike in their city-country?


Dude - do you even ride a bike ?

The price is pretty good - I'd expected more. 

Back to your Jim Davidson box sets now.


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## rogerzilla (18 Jan 2022)

We ran a fun poll over on YACF to guess the price. It turns out to be a bit cheaper than most people thought, although my guess was £3,750 so I was a bit low.


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## l4dva (18 Jan 2022)

Did anyone else get an email to actually buy one? I did!! 

Wonder if the ballot was a way to drum up some demand ?!? But I’m guessing they already have enough demand for there products.

It looks amazing, Price is high but I think it’s justifiable- I think! I’ve been eying up a Brompton bike for a long time now, so I’m keen but timing probably isn’t right for me at the moment we have just moved house otherwise I might of pulled the trigger.


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## GeekDadZoid (18 Jan 2022)

l4dva said:


> Did anyone else get an email to actually buy one? I did!!
> 
> Wonder if the ballot was a way to drum up some demand ?!? But I’m guessing they already have enough demand for there products.
> 
> It looks amazing, Price is high but I think it’s justifiable- I think! I’ve been eying up a Brompton bike for a long time now, so I’m keen but timing probably isn’t right for me at the moment we have just moved house otherwise I might of pulled the trigger.


Yes I got one too, no way I was gonna buy one mind.



Justinitus said:


> You have to pick it up in person from Brompton Junction London. From what I’ve heard, Brompton are not giving end users the boxes and the bike will be registered to you pre-handover - I guess in an attempt to stop reselling abroad.


They said that originally, but on the email it says you can have it delivered to your home or to your preferred dealer.


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## FrankCrank (19 Jan 2022)

Oh dear - here we go again

_Vu vill agree vith me zat Prompton are zee pest pikez in zee vorld. Vu are not alloved to zay pad zings apout zee Prompton. If vu zay pad zings, your name vill pe vritten in mein little plack pook. Vu vill pe fery scared._


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## ExBrit (19 Jan 2022)

FrankCrank said:


> Oh dear - here we go again
> 
> _Vu vill agree vith me zat Prompton are zee pest pikez in zee vorld. Vu are not alloved to zay pad zings apout zee Prompton. If vu zay pad zings, your name vill pe vritten in mein little plack pook. Vu vill pe fery scared._


Zecunt vurst Deutche aczent effer.


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## Justinitus (19 Jan 2022)

GeekDadZoid said:


> Yes I got one too, no way I was gonna buy one mind.
> 
> 
> They said that originally, but on the email it says you can have it delivered to your home or to your preferred dealer.



Here’s a cut’n’paste from the Link To Purchase email I got yesterday - was yours different?

*Collecting your new bike*

The new T Line bike is only available to buy online at Brompton.com and must be collected from the London Covent Garden Junction Store.
Home delivery or pick-up from any other Brompton stockist cannot be arranged, sorry.
As soon as the bike is available to collect, the Brompton Junction team will contact you. This may take up to 12 weeks. If for any reason, the dispatch time extends beyond 12 weeks we will inform you directly.
The three complimentary services at 1, 4 and 12 months of ownership will be provided at the London Covent Garden Junction store.


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## IanSmithCSE (19 Jan 2022)

Good morning,



Justinitus said:


> Here’s a cut’n’paste from the Link To Purchase email I got yesterday - was yours different?
> 
> *Collecting your new bike*
> 
> ...



Looking around t'internet says that Brompton make 40k-50k bikes per year with 70%-80% going abroad, it's not as if 90% of sales are commuters into London.

It almost looks like a limited release with extensive follow ups to ensure that nothing is going wrong before a full launch.

Bye

Ian


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## berlinonaut (19 Jan 2022)

Justinitus said:


> You have to pick it up in person from Brompton Junction London. From what I’ve heard, Brompton are not giving end users the boxes and the bike will be registered to you pre-handover - I guess in an attempt to stop reselling abroad.


Speculative offerings have already started. From the UK:







From Singapore:


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## rogerzilla (19 Jan 2022)

Spivs.


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## CaptainWheezy (19 Jan 2022)

Looking at the video yesterday, it seems they did a pretty good job of going over the whole bike to find weight savings. New bottom bracket casting, carbon crankset & forks etc. Didn't look like there are many opportunities for further weight savings other than maybe wheels with only enough spokes to carry the average smaller asian person. Price looks reasonable to me given what I spent to shave over 1Kg from a recent superlight purchase.
Plenty of comments on Facebook this morning calling it ugly, ugly welds, don't they know how to weld etc, suggesting that the knock off Chinese titanium frames are better etc, but that's fine if you weigh about 50Kg, and if it snaps in half, good luck getting it fixed if you didn't end up under a bus when it failed. The comment in the video that stood out to me was the guy said "It's not a show pony, its been engineered for every day use", plus it's being built by C W Fletchers in Sheffield who have already been building the superlight rear triangle and forks for ages and I've yet to hear of one of those failing anywhere other than the easywheel mount where a bike's been dropped on it. Pretty sure they know what they're doing considering the other work they do in the aerospace and nuclear industries.

Wonder if we'll see any "anodised" frames to add a bit of colour!

As soon as they're a bit more available, I'll no doubt cave in and treat myself!


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## Dogtrousers (19 Jan 2022)

I haven't had an email from Brompton 

I must say it looks very nice.


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## CEBEP (19 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> The price is pretty good - I'd expected more.


Next model will probably cost >£5k.
I'd say, if people pay why the hell not charge them more.


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## CEBEP (19 Jan 2022)

I missed the video. Is the frame all Ti?
If yes I wander how they solved flex issue. Making it thicker would probably eliminate weight savings difference.


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## T4tomo (19 Jan 2022)

It looks excellent and the pricing isnt too bad all things considered. Carbon fork and crankset look very nice too and the carbon / steel seatpost is very innovative.

from what they say about "re-design" it don't think there is much compatibility between the Ti model and others - we'll see in time.

If I was still riding a brompton daily I'd be having one. 1.5kg saving on a superlight is not to be sneezed at.


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## CaptainWheezy (19 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> I missed the video. Is the frame all Ti?
> If yes I wander how they solved flex issue. Making it thicker would probably eliminate weight savings difference.


It's a bigger slightly oval shaped tube, and the bit at the bottom of the seat tube that connects bottom bracket and rear triangle is a new casting.


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## Milkfloat (19 Jan 2022)

My brain is still stuck in thinking that a Brompton should only cost £600, the same it has thought for the last 15 years or so. This might be the version to move the needle to £2k.


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## straas (19 Jan 2022)

Milkfloat said:


> My brain is still stuck in thinking that a Brompton should only cost £600, the same it has thought for the last 15 years or so. This might be the version to move the needle to £2k.



This is the sort of thinking that makes my dad think I can get my kitchen tiled for £30


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## shingwell (19 Jan 2022)

CaptainWheezy said:


> The comment in the video that stood out to me was the guy said "It's not a show pony, its been engineered for every day use"


This is precisely why you pay what you do, for any Brompton, not just is one. No B is a show pony, but they do what they are built to do day in and day out, and they do it better than anything else.


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## CaptainWheezy (19 Jan 2022)

shingwell said:


> This is precisely why you pay what you do, for any Brompton, not just is one. No B is a show pony, but they do what they are built to do day in and day out, and they do it better than anything else.


I noted it more since the majority of the weight weenie builds in the far east using the chinese frames usually also use wheels that wouldn't last 5 minutes on the average pot holed streets of the uk due to having most of the spokes removed!

The fact that you will now be able to effectively buy a bike off the shelf with all the mods done to it already, with a warranty and company to back it up should anything go wrong for about the same price as building one using lightweight aftermarket parts and a chinese frame will I suspect give those suppliers something to worry about!

Expect to see the bay of e flooded with CHPT3 bikes soon :-)


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## CEBEP (19 Jan 2022)

shingwell said:


> This is precisely why you pay what you do, for any Brompton, not just is one. No B is a show pony, but they do what they are built to do day in and day out, and they do it better than anything else.


It's not always the case that what you design performs exactly how you designed it to perform. As I understand it has carbon fork, something new. Beside that Brompton said everything was redesigned beside breakes. We are yet to see how it will perform day in and day out. Hope new owners will be happy considering price of the bike.


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## rogerzilla (19 Jan 2022)

I think the early adopters are really beta testers. I'm sure Brompton will do the right thing for them, but there will be problems with such a radical number of changes in one go.


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## yoho oy (19 Jan 2022)

> The price is pretty good - I'd expected more.


Brompton, are you listening? Your bike is like fruit logo computer. Charge 10k and 500 for titanium ez wheels. Plus make sure that everything is soldered and not user serviceable. You will have to buy a new bike if some little thing breaks off. 

No, I was thinking more about being thief magnet. You will loose any joy of using one just because of that. Plus parts will cost you a fortune too.
It is great that they keep innovating. I think the research and development might translate into non titanium bikes too. I think it is possible safely shave off 1kg from steel one too by tweaking frame design a little bit.

Also resellers suck. I saw many adds from wholesalers on gumtree during bike shortage. Prices were bigger from them.


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## CEBEP (19 Jan 2022)

I don't think most of those who will order T-line will use them as daily drivers. These will probably become similar to Rolex watches. While being designed as diver, most of the Rolex divers will never even see inside of the swimming pool, precisely because of the price.


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## mitchibob (20 Jan 2022)

You'd expect a power meter to be integrated at that price too ;-)


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## FrankCrank (20 Jan 2022)

Bargain. I've ordered two.


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## l4dva (20 Jan 2022)

Not sure I agree - £4k is a lot of money but road/mountain/gravel bikes can all be brought for £4k or a lot lot lot more and those bikes get daily use in all sorts of conditions - mountain and gravel bikes in particular get some heavy abuse!

Sure if I was fortunate (& wealthy) enough to buy one I'd probably get the whole thing wrapped with helitape but then I'd just get out and ride it!



CEBEP said:


> I don't think most of those who will order T-line will use them as daily drivers. These will probably become similar to Rolex watches. While being designed as diver, most of the Rolex divers will never even see inside of the swimming pool, precisely because of the price.


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## berlinonaut (20 Jan 2022)

Brompton now has a webpage about the T-line. It is currently not reachable/visible via the site navigation but they posted the link on social media.
https://www.brompton.com/tline
Currentliy only S and M models, no H.


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## CEBEP (20 Jan 2022)

l4dva said:


> Not sure I agree - £4k is a lot of money but road/mountain/gravel bikes can all be brought for £4k or a lot lot lot more and those bikes get daily use in all sorts of conditions - mountain and gravel bikes in particular get some heavy abuse!
> 
> Sure if I was fortunate (& wealthy) enough to buy one I'd probably get the whole thing wrapped with helitape but then I'd just get out and ride it!



This guy uses his bikes daily, every day to go to work and back, long weekend trips etc. This guy in my opinion is *the* guy who uses his Brompton day in and day out. The way bike is supposed to be used. And his Brompton is not a Ti one, not super light or something. Just a black, black edition. Let's see what he has to say


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## berlinonaut (20 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> This guy uses his bikes daily, every day to go to work and back, long weekend trips etc. This guy in my opinion is *the* guy who uses his Brompton day in and day out. The way bike is supposed to be used. And his Brompton is not a Ti one, not super light or something. Just a black, black edition. Let's see what he has to say


How do you come to the conclusion his opinion would be relevant and he would the "the" guy? The video was incredibly boring so I stopped after a short while and there were basically two statements from him this video 
1. It is cold
2. the commuting to work has stressed the Brompton to destruction
Not so much content for a 20 minute video.  Fact check:
1. Was it cold? Maybe. It was -10°C. I've biked to work regularly at up to -20°for months over many years and still bike regularly throughout the year, so -10 may be cold but absolutely nothing to freak out or to stop biking. And clearly not for making such a faff and pretending to be a tough guy and bikehero.
2. Has the commuting stressed the Brompton to destruction? Hmm, given the fact that there are 100.000s of Bromptons out there in daily use for commuting I do have my doubts. As far as I remember this guy doesn't have his Brompton for too long and shortly after he bought it he made a video about that he needed to change the rear hinge after 3 months of use. Pretty uncommon, with most riders it lasts between maybe five up to more than 20 years. But maybe that gives us a hint: It was probably less the commute that destroyed the Brompton but the rider. There are people that are able to destroy about anything. Regarding his commuting with the Brompton he says in the video since getting it fixed he only commuted to work for a week on it and the rest of the time used other bikes. 

So I clearly would not call him *the* Brompton rider/commuter but rather another one of these youtube personalities hunting for fame based and for that saddeling on Brompton as brand shortly and with not that much experience. Just a random person that obviously mistreats his bike badly and tries to become an influencer or youtube personality . Not really relevant in my eyes. Nothing wrong about him, I just would not see him as a relevant person as you obviously do.

On the topic: If I would buy a T-line (which I don't plan) I would clearly use it for everyday riding. Else it would make no sense to spend the money - that's what it's made for and that's where the value of it is. No fear of theft as my Bromptons are never locked outside - that's why I have a Brompton after all. They fold. I clearly would like a sub 8kg Brompton and while it costs a hell of money I do not think it is overpriced and if I really wanted it I could possibly even afford it somehow. Possibly even cheaper through our national cycle to work-scheme. But currently I don't have the need for another bike and also not for another Brompton plus at Corona times the weight saving on the bike is not relevant to me due to a lack of commuting and travel.


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## ExBrit (20 Jan 2022)

I spent $5000 on a custom Ti bike in 1998. With inflation, exchange rates, and the current premium on all bicycles I think £4k is not unreasonable for a folding Ti bike. (Technically I must point out that most bikes fold given enough force, it's the subsequent unfolding where the Brompton excels). If this was my main bike, I would be OK with this price.

I have ridden my Ti over 100,000 miles and still love it. I expect the Brompton Ti will provide similar returns. As one cyclist said to me last weekend "The problem with Ti bikes is they only last 30 or 40 years"


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## rogerzilla (20 Jan 2022)

Review/advertorial: https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review

The weld in the third photo has been overheated badly.


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## T4tomo (20 Jan 2022)

If I was still bike & train commuting I'd be having one and riding it everyday.

edit to add the carbon forks & crankset and steel coated carbon seat post look great and are very innovative.


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## ExBrit (20 Jan 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Review/advertorial: https://www.rouleur.cc/blogs/desire-journal/brompton-7-45kg-titanium-t-line-first-look-review
> 
> The weld in the third photo has been overheated badly.



You can just hear the argument between the engineers and marketing...
Marketing: We like the pretty colors
Engineering: It's a crap weld. It looks like we don't know what we're doing.
Marketing: Tough, we're providing the marketing copy so it's pretty colors every time!


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## rogerzilla (20 Jan 2022)

Ti welds are like urine: anything beyond a pale straw colour is trouble.


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## T4tomo (20 Jan 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Ti welds are like urine: anything beyond a pale straw colour is trouble.


its a marketing photo, that weld probably isn't on a bike anywhere in the world. Don't panic..


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## CEBEP (20 Jan 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> The video was incredibly boring so I stopped after a short while


it's really amazing, how after questioning how I came to my conclusion that he is the guy who rides his bike day in and day out, using same logic of yours you drawn a conclusion about this guy being:

- not a Brompton rider but just a personality hunting for fame
- doesn't have much experience
- mistreats his bike badly
- tries to become an influencer or youtube personality

based on a single video which you shortly stopped watching after a while. Since unlike you I've watched all of his videos, I can say that you have absolutely no understanding about this guy, what's the purpose of his channel and the rest of your conclusions.


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## CEBEP (20 Jan 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Ti welds are like urine: anything beyond a pale straw colour is trouble.


As far as I know Ti is welded in argon environment. At least that's how Russian titanium submarine parts are welded. Don't know how Brompton does it, but if this is the case, the welding costs alone will bring this bikes production costs really high.


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## Lake Mendota (20 Jan 2022)

It’s great, but still… another product targeting an income bracket well above mine. Maybe that’s where the profit margins are. Bromptons are already pretty pricy. I’d like to get excited about changes to the products I might be able to buy some day, rather than read about products I’ll never be able to afford. Maybe some of this new tech, like the four speed, will make it to their mainstream bikes.


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## yoho oy (20 Jan 2022)

> This guy uses his bikes daily, every day to go to work and back, long weekend trips etc. This guy in my opinion is *the* guy who uses his Brompton day in and day out. The way bike is supposed to be used. And his Brompton is not a Ti one, not super light or something. Just a black, black edition. Let's see what he has to say


The guy is a bit sensationalist and does things to attract the views. In general I don't understand what is his channel all about. Brompton? Zizzo? Biking in general? All sorts of misfortunes? Obsessively "massaging" the bike with replacement parts in order to make it "better"? Did he actually needed a folder to begin with? Fatbike could fare better in winter. How long did he had Brompton for? First video from him with a Brompton appears on 2'd May 2020. On 10'th of October 2020 he made a video of having a Brompton for 6 months. So in a year and 9 months =/- his brompton is a toast... He is going to buy another one, but then he has another 2? One orange and another Chapter 3? Not so sure about what he says about bike longevity. London is quite saturated with Bromptons and many people use them as daily commuters. I think biking is somehow more challenging in London than in USA where he lives. Just compare sidewalk and bike lane width in USA and in London. Plus there are many people who pretty much travelled around the world with the same Brompton.

On other hand I congratulate him on using Bromton in winter. Snow, ice, cold, narrow wheels, high centre of gravity in a back (as he uses extended seat post... Even without snow I don't bike much in winter unless it is really nice weather without any rain and without high wind.


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## FrankCrank (21 Jan 2022)

Of the two I've ordered, one will be in a glass case in the living room. All my guests will be highly impressed at my good taste. 
The other will be stored in the loft as a standby machine, in case the first one is stolen.

Joking aside - as mentioned, that weld in the photo, did the mop lady do it?


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> The guy is a bit sensationalist and does things to attract the views. In general I don't understand what is his channel all about. Brompton? Zizzo? Biking in general? All sorts of misfortunes? Obsessively "massaging" the bike with replacement parts in order to make it "better"? Did he actually needed a folder to begin with? Fatbike could fare better in winter. How long did he had Brompton for? First video from him with a Brompton appears on 2'd May 2020. On 10'th of October 2020 he made a video of having a Brompton for 6 months. So in a year and 9 months =/- his brompton is a toast... He is going to buy another one, but then he has another 2? One orange and another Chapter 3? Not so sure about what he says about bike longevity. London is quite saturated with Bromptons and many people use them as daily commuters. I think biking is somehow more challenging in London than in USA where he lives. Just compare sidewalk and bike lane width in USA and in London. Plus there are many people who pretty much travelled around the world with the same Brompton.
> 
> On other hand I congratulate him on using Bromton in winter. Snow, ice, cold, narrow wheels, high centre of gravity in a back (as he uses extended seat post... Even without snow I don't bike much in winter unless it is really nice weather without any rain and without high wind.


Could you just unpack "high centre of gravity" for me?


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## yoho oy (21 Jan 2022)

> Could you just unpack "high centre of gravity" for me?


Might be it is wrong expression. Basically if you are a bit "heavier" and taller rider, there is a bit stability issue on thin wheels and most bass very high up in the air (if you are using extended seat post. I personally feel that way sometimes, so I try to lower seatpost a little bit more than the best position for my height. I feel that with regular frame there is no such issue, since weight somehow distributes better. Don't get me wrong- Brompton is nice bike, I use everything stock with no additions, or modifications, except different saddle. On other hand I certainly would not ride brompton on ice, in snow or some very difficult terrain. It is designed for city, not as mtb, winter bike or etc.


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## rogerzilla (21 Jan 2022)

High CoG isn't a problem on a bike. It actually reduces the rate at which the bike wobbles (inverted pendulum). 

Besides, it's not as if the riding position is different to any other upright bike: and the bike is a tiny proportion of the overall mass, with a 13st ape sitting on it.


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## swansonj (21 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> Might be it is wrong expression. Basically if you are a bit "heavier" and taller rider, there is a bit stability issue on thin wheels and most bass very high up in the air (if you are using extended seat post. I personally feel that way sometimes, so I try to lower seatpost a little bit more than the best position for my height. I feel that with regular frame there is no such issue, since weight somehow distributes better. Don't get me wrong- Brompton is nice bike, I use everything stock with no additions, or modifications, except different saddle. On other hand I certainly would not ride brompton on ice, in snow or some very difficult terrain. It is designed for city, not as mtb, winter bike or etc.





rogerzilla said:


> High CoG isn't a problem on a bike. It actually reduces the rate at which the bike wobbles (inverted pendulum).
> 
> Besides, it's not as if the riding position is different to any other upright bike: and the bike is a tiny proportion of the overall mass, with a 13st ape sitting on it.


Yes, I've got no problem with the idea that a Brompton may feel less stable on slippery roads. I'm less convinced that that's anything to do with the CoG. For the same riding position, a Brompton+rider will have a marginally _lower_ CoG than with a normal bike. Many people may adopt a more upright position on a Brompton, which would raise the CoG, but that's not inherent to it being a Brompton. The stability issue surely is to do with wheel size and geometry, not to do with the CoG.


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## rogerzilla (22 Jan 2022)

Yes, it's the lower trail of a small wheel, and the need to fold restricts how mhch you can decrease fork offset or slacken head angle to fix it. Besides, a very slack head angle would introduce other undesirable behaviours like "capsize".

Bromptons are stable enough at speed - I've had one up to 50mph - but they are incredibly difficult to ride hands-off. Most people will notice the twitchiness when making hand signals.


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## Tenkaykev (22 Jan 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Yes, it's the lower trail of a small wheel, and the need to fold restricts how mhch you can decrease fork offset or slacken head angle to fix it. Besides, a very slack head angle would introduce other undesirable behaviours like "capsize".
> 
> Bromptons are stable enough at speed - I've had one up to 50mph - but they are incredibly difficult to ride hands-off. Most people will notice the twitchiness when making hand signals.


That’s what I noticed. For some reason I’m fine indicating laft, but a bit wobbly indicating right🤔


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## berlinonaut (22 Jan 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> Yes, it's the lower trail of a small wheel, and the need to fold restricts how mhch you can decrease fork offset or slacken head angle to fix it. Besides, a very slack head angle would introduce other undesirable behaviours like "capsize".


Some of the clone bikes do have that "feature" - looks a bit chopperesque:







It seems that this bikebrand does not exist anymore (at least the former webpage of the brand is currently dead) but a more or less similar bike is sold on the Philippines as "Pico" as well and on their Facebookpage I found a pic side by side with a Brompton which makes it easier to compare:


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## yoho oy (22 Jan 2022)

View: https://imgur.com/a/ScQoxMr
Here is for Brompton fans - one chap in USA had a little bit hands on Ti version. Click on a link and you will see higher detailed pictures.


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## 12boy (22 Jan 2022)

I find Brian's YouTube fairly interesting, especially the contrast between Brompton hinges and the Al framed ones. Assuming he lives in Denver somewhere, riding to Boulder, which is almost 40 miles away, for repairs is unusual. 
As far as the T line goes I would like to have one but I am less interested in carbon parts such as cranks and forks as the weight savings is not as important to me as longevity and Ti being rust free. I also wonder if the rear triangle hinge has been upgraded or improved in some way so as to make replacing the bushings more DIY. And what if any changes have occurred with the need for a plastic seat post insert. The Brompton YouTube I saw indicates the only parts carryover are the brakes. I gather it will be some time before the T lines will be as easily gotten as regular Bromptons.


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## Mark pallister (22 Jan 2022)

I just don’t get the whole Brompton thing 🤷‍♂️
I wouldn’t have a free one


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## Rocky (22 Jan 2022)

Mark pallister said:


> I just don’t get the whole Brompton thing 🤷‍♂️
> I wouldn’t have a free one


It's a bit like marmite, I guess. Since my back operation, the only bike I can ride is a Brompton. I just love it. 

Having said that, I'm not sure I'd get the Ti one. I rather like my M6R......not too heavy, perfect gearing and can carry just enough for the credit card touring I do these days.


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## rogerzilla (22 Jan 2022)

Having played with two types of Moulton rear pivots, the Brompton one isn't bad. The glacier bushes have a very high load capacity, and the nylon washers, as well as acting as thrust bearings, help with dirt sealing and make the exact spindle length less critical. Requiring the use of a reamer also removes the difficulty of manufacturing bushes that are a precise size AFTER pressing. In fact, I had to run a 7/16" hand reamer through the last set of Moulton F-frame bushes I fitted.

The problem is that it's not very user-friendly at overhaul time due to tool and parts availability in the UK. The bushes are 06DX06 generic parts, as are the hi-tensile bolts and nylon washers. The spindle is pretty unique but should last a few bush replacements. Brommieplus make a very nice piloted reamer - better than the Trubor one Brompton won't sell you - for £55.


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## berlinonaut (23 Jan 2022)

CEBEP said:


> This guy in my opinion is *the* guy who uses his Brompton day in and day out. The way bike is supposed to be used. And his Brompton is not a Ti one, not super light or something. Just a black, black edition. Let's see what he has to say





berlinonaut said:


> Fact check:
> 1. Was it cold? Maybe. It was -10°C. I've biked to work regularly at up to -20°for months over many years and still bike regularly throughout the year, so -10 may be cold but absolutely nothing to freak out or to stop biking. And clearly not for making such a faff and pretending to be a tough guy and bikehero.


BTW, regarding riding the Brompton in winter conditions: This is the classic, still unbeaten gold standard:







A researcher who lived on a station at the South Pole, took his Brompton with him there and used it on a daily basis. This was ages ago already, if I remember correctly in the early 2000s. The Brompton is a model from the late 80ies/early 90ies.

But you don't have to go as far. This pic i.e. is in Russia:





(stumbled upon on Reddit)

Or that one, labeled "Six-day bicycle tour across the ice of Lake Baikal"





There are many, many user reports of riding the Brompton in snow and ice from countries where there is snow and ice. Russia, Scandinavia, Canada.

This is one of my own Bromptons during a short winter ride early last year:





So making a faff about riding at -10°C (plus in the dry w/o rain, snow or ice) seems a bit ridiculous to me...


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## yoho oy (23 Jan 2022)

Mark pallister said:


> I just don’t get the whole Brompton thing 🤷‍♂️
> I wouldn’t have a free one


It is compactly foldable
It is relatively lightweight
Can carry almost everywhere, including indoors
Decent ride given the shape/size/weight factors

If you don't need any of these then there are tons of cheaper bikes that can be used for daily riding and will cost much less in a long run. Even if it falls apart, some of them can be purchased again, cheaper than fixing the old one. 

I don't get Ti version. Basically it strives to reduce the weight, but at a steep cost.
I just thought what is the cheapest way to reduce weight on a Bromton... Well - to remove something. Mudguards, pump, front block. That is 421 grams. All weight reduction is for free. 

Then you look at the cheapest weight reduction- saddle, pedals and handlebar grips. That is about 984 grams to work with (when counting with original c17 saddle). Of course you will not reduce all 984 grams. You still will need grips, saddle and pedals. Grips can be bought for less than £10, more likely £8, saddles around £20, pedals £15. Very inexpensive and very effective on weight reduction. Sure, you will sacrifice some functionality, aesthetics, but who cares. Foam handlebar grips, narrow saddle, perhaps nonfolding resin (nylon) pedals.

Third weight reduction option is more expensive than the first 2- changing tyres. Marathon racers weight 420g each, so 840 grams. Changing to something lighter, but also functional (so you don't have to keep changing them very often) like Continental could shave 434g . This would set you back roughly £70.

The further weight strategy will get very expensive, and technically involving. IMHO is just not worth neither cost nor effort.


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## yoho oy (23 Jan 2022)

> BTW, regarding riding the Brompton in winter conditions: This is the classic, still unbeaten gold standard:


To do something in order to just prove the point is trivial. A few decades ago humans landed on a Moon in basically aluminium kitchen foil craft, equipped with a less capable computer than almost any today's smart watch. Sure, they did that a few times, but then they did not need to live there on permanent basis for the rest of their life or for long time. Nowadays they worry about radiation belts, more redundancy, much more safety, ergonomics and so on.

So I would actually ask this- does it fit your needs? Is it comfortable? Is is like buying Prada to wear it on a farm when feeding animals and cleaning up...


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## bonzobanana (23 Jan 2022)

I'm not into high end bikes typically but I can see a real benefit to a lighter Brompton with ease of carrying and even putting in a backpack. Definitely on the shopping list after a lottery win. I do want to hear how robust it actually is though in real world use.


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## berlinonaut (23 Jan 2022)

yoho oy said:


> To do something in order to just prove the point is trivial. (...) So I would actually ask this- does it fit your needs? Is it comfortable?


Obviously. I do have plenty of bikes to choose from, so I would have plenty alternatives. The reasons for the Brompton do not differ between winter and summer and it lives up to expectations in winter as well as in summer.


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## Dogtrousers (23 Jan 2022)

It doesn't really matter what we think about it though does it. They're practically unobtainable, so if we want one .... we can't get one. It we disdain them on principle it doesn't matter ... because we can't get one.


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## rogerzilla (23 Jan 2022)

I think it's what a lot of people have been waiting for but (as with all new products), you should wait for v3.0 or v3.1 so they've ironed out the bugs.


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## cougie uk (27 Jan 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> I'm not into high end bikes typically but I can see a real benefit to a lighter Brompton with ease of carrying and even putting in a backpack. Definitely on the shopping list after a lottery win. I do want to hear how robust it actually is though in real world use.


Oof. I'd not want it in a backpack. They do fit nicely into the IKEA laundry bags though.


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## bonzobanana (27 Jan 2022)

cougie uk said:


> Oof. I'd not want it in a backpack. They do fit nicely into the IKEA laundry bags though.


I could easily carry the weight of one on my back but admittedly size wise I'm not sure how it would work out. I can carry 25kg on my back (short distances) and 12-15kg comfortably so 8kg would be nothing.


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## Dogtrousers (27 Jan 2022)

I saw an article some time ago by someone who had made a custom Brompton backpack. I was highly sceptical at first but the author seemed happy with it, so who am I to criticise?

Not something I'd want to try myself.

Edit: There's a thread all about it here: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/carrying-a-brompton-on-a-rucksack.221587/


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## 12boy (27 Jan 2022)

Got a note today from Brompton I can be inline for one as I had expressed an interest, but need to pick it up in New York, New York, about 28 hours of driving time and 1900 miles each way. I would get 3 free tuneups, also in NY. Prolly won't do that.


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## berlinonaut (27 Jan 2022)

12boy said:


> Got a note today from Brompton I can be inline for one as I had expressed an interest, but need to pick it up in New York, New York, about 28 hours of driving time and 1900 miles each way. I would get 3 free tuneups, also in NY. Prolly won't do that.


Hmm, this would add up to 8*1900 miles - if you ride there you would be pretty fit afterwards and probably the free tuneups would be welcome as well after 3800 miles per roundtrip.


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## rualexander (27 Jan 2022)

bonzobanana said:


> I could easily carry the weight of one on my back but admittedly size wise I'm not sure how it would work out. I can carry 25kg on my back (short distances) and 12-15kg comfortably so 8kg would be nothing.



Works out pretty well, I'm surprised there aren't more commercial solutions to carrying a Brompton on your back.
In this case I just tied it onto an existing day pack I already had.
Carried it a few miles that day, no problem.


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## berlinonaut (27 Jan 2022)

rualexander said:


> Works out pretty well, I'm surprised there aren't more commercial solutions to carrying a Brompton on your back.


There are a couple, for many years already. I.e. from Carradice: https://carradice.co.uk/shop/accessories/folding-bike-case/
from Radical Design:
https://www.radicaldesign.com/brompton-backpack
S+S Machine:
http://www.sandsmachine.com/ac_back.htm
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/transporting-bicycles/s-and-s-machine-backpack-case-black/
This bag from a Turkish ebay-seller (who is offering those bags for way more than 10 years already):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115159402264
This system from South Korea via ebay (which has been on offer for a couple of years alreday):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/262531884864

and probably a couple more.


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## berlinonaut (27 Mar 2022)

I did have the opportunity to see, touch and ride the T-Line this weekend during a bike fair. Ride quality does not differ massively from a "normal" Bropmton - possibly the T feels a tad stiffer than the steel one I'd say, mainly due to the carbon forks, the stem and different main hinge, possibly also the new shape of the suspension block counts in. Still subjective opinion - hard to tell based on a short test ride with limited terrain.
Lifting the bike on the other hand is an eye-opener. The weight difference feels dramatic. If it was less costly I would probably be very keen on it and thinking about buying one, even more if I didn't own a "normal" 2lx already. At the price not so much for the time being.


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## berlinonaut (27 Nov 2022)

There was a pretty massive rise in price of the T-Line recently: When it was invented prices looked like this:







Now they changed them to that:


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## tinywheels (28 Nov 2022)

makes me wonder when it will hit its price ceiling. 
its in the price range of many attractive options. 
there can only be so many foldy obsessed weirdos out there.
Cycle to work schemes are not that big a saving. where will it all end?


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## Kell (28 Nov 2022)

I wouldn't say the Cycle to work schemes aren't a big saving. But I don't think it's as much of an incentive as it used to be.

Assuming you stay in your job for the 4 year ownership transfer fee to reach its minimum, it's a minimum of 25%. Though I'm pretty sure most sites are still quoting older figures and say a minimum of 33%.

I've had two bikes through the scheme and I think the first one was around 35% off, and the second (current) one was around that 25% mark. I don't remember the exact figures for either off hand.

Still worth doing.


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## rogerzilla (28 Nov 2022)

The increase is by almost exactly CPI. Not really surprising. Some people with telecoms contracts that increase by CPI + 3.9% are going to get a rude shock this year - that's 15%!


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## Tenkaykev (28 Nov 2022)

rogerzilla said:


> The increase is by almost exactly CPI. Not really surprising. Some people with telecoms contracts that increase by CPI + 3.9% are going to get a rude shock this year - that's 15%!



I noticed that smallprint when the Broadband adverts pop up on the TV . We went with Zen internet a few years ago, they had a " no price rise " guarantee if you maintained your contract with them. I got an email earlier in the year with the price guarantee as the subject line and thought, here we go...
The Email was just to say that they would continue to offer the guarantee to existing customers but wouldn't be offering it to new customers.
They have been exemplary when dealing with a couple of technical issues. I pay £35 per month for 80 /20. I could hop around from deal to deal to save a few quid, but having such great customer service, reliability and peace of mind is worth more than the possible savings.


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## berlinonaut (28 Nov 2022)

In the German market the Single Speed costs now 4.777€ and the T-Line Urban 5.027€. Crossing the 5k price mark for a folder feels very strange and somewhat "wrong". 
While my general interest in the T-Line is still there with the new prices I would need even more justification than before and given that there's no telescopic seat post option (apart from using the steel one with a heft weight penalty) and no H version of the bike I would pay a lot for a bike that would not ergonomically fit me. I could potentially live with the M bars, given that on the T they are wider than on the C as far as I know. However: The seat post is too short.
Also, a rise in price of (in Germany) about 450€ is a dramatic one, may it be inflation based or not. For a bike that is very optional that lowers the attractiveness (but on the other hand: how log will it take until is costs 6000€? ).


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## rogerzilla (29 Nov 2022)

In the UK, many (possibly most) Bromptons are bought using tax-free Cycle to Work schemes. Depending on the scheme and employer*, you can save about half the cost and pay in 12 instalments. This enables much higher prices.

It was noticeable that, when most C2W schemes had a £1,000 ceiling, the price of the old M3L rapidly increased to that figure. Now the ceiling is much higher.

*there are also schemes where the saving is negligible because you don't get the VAT off and the final payment to own is very high, and those are best avoided.


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## Kell (29 Nov 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> In the German market the Single Speed costs now 4.777€ and the T-Line Urban 5.027€. Crossing the 5k price mark for a folder feels very strange and somewhat "wrong".
> While my general interest in the T-Line is still there with the new prices I would need even more justification than before and given that there's no telescopic seat post option (apart from using the steel one with a heft weight penalty) and no H version of the bike I would pay a lot for a bike that would not ergonomically fit me. I could potentially live with the M bars, given that on the T they are wider than on the C as far as I know. However: The seat post is too short.
> Also, a rise in price of (in Germany) about 450€ is a dramatic one, may it be inflation based or not. For a bike that is very optional that lowers the attractiveness (but on the other hand: how log will it take until is costs 6000€? ).



It's all horses for courses to some degree. 

While I could justify the increased cost on the savings I make by not having to park or take the tube, I can't justify the need over and above a 'normal' Brompton for the same journeys. 

Other than just 'want one'.


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## berlinonaut (29 Nov 2022)

Kell said:


> While I could justify the increased cost on the savings I make by not having to park or take the tube, I can't justify the need over and above a 'normal' Brompton for the same journeys.
> 
> Other than just 'want one'.


Exactly that.


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## CaptainWheezy (2 Dec 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> The seat post is too short.



If you're willing to live without the telescopic bit, the H&H Titanium seatposts from Bikegang in Taiwan are available in extended lengths and seem well made. I've got 3 titanium ones, and 2 carbon ones (we have 5 Bromptons!, 2x S6L's, 2x S6L-X's & 1x T explore or whatever they call the 4 speed), albeit the sorter length variants.


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## berlinonaut (2 Dec 2022)

CaptainWheezy said:


> If you're willing to live without the telescopic bit, the H&H Titanium seatposts from Bikegang in Taiwan are available in extended lengths and seem well made. I've got 3 titanium ones, and 2 carbon ones (we have 5 Bromptons!, 2x S6L's, 2x S6L-X's & 1x T explore or whatever they call the 4 speed), albeit the sorter length variants.



Not really. For one the seat post on the T-line is a massive weight saver with it's construction of carbon with a very thin layer of stainless steel. And probably a massive price factor as well. The non telescopic posts avail. are typically either 580mm or 600mm (like the longer one from Brompton that's avail for the C-line). So as long as there's nothing like a 650mm or 700mm going for 3rd party won't help. I could live with the post sticking out further in folded state but not with knees hurting due to a too short post. I do own 3rd party aluminium-, ti- and carbon-posts but they are too short either (even being 600mm) - they got thus transferred to the Moulton TSR or reside on the spare parts cupboard.


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## CaptainWheezy (2 Dec 2022)

berlinonaut said:


> Not really. For one the seat post on the T-line is a massive weight saver with it's construction of carbon with a very thin layer of stainless steel. And probably a massive price factor as well. The non telescopic posts avail. are typically either 580mm or 600mm (like the longer one from Brompton that's avail for the C-line). So as long as there's nothing like a 650mm or 700mm going for 3rd party won't help. I could live with the post sticking out further in folded state but not with knees hurting due to a too short post. I do own 3rd party aluminium-, ti- and carbon-posts but they are too short either (even being 600mm) - they got thus transferred to the Moulton TSR or reside on the spare parts cupboard.



The T-Line seatpost isn't really that impressive when compared with the aftermarket Titanium ones. I weighed mine including pentaclip and it came in at about 385g (standard length). The H&H Matte Titanium post which includes the far less fiddly seat clamp comes in at 320g and to my eye looks a lot better. Fortunately for me, the H&H standard length post is a perfect fit for me.


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## mitchibob (4 Dec 2022)

I just got to lose some more weight!. Unless I'm at the minimum of 'normal', really can't justify this bike, no matter how cool it looks. Price? ridiculous. Not sure how many times I'd have to ride from Treherbert to Candem to justify on 'Cycle to work' scheme, but I guess ride from Paddington, plus couple Regents Park laps, counts ;-). But, still feel it could do with a Classified Powershift Hub for up by here (my valleys accent hasn't come back yet, but certain expressions come back). Plus for that money, there should at least be dual sided power meter in there. Surely it's a 'hill-climb' Brompton, but didn't see one at Urban Hill Climb.

Problem is, the T-line is gorgeous! But love my other Brommies too, so, until I can fully justify, I'm staying clear! Perhaps if they add option to have Welsh Dragons engraved?

Also, why not lighten a bit more by using tan-wall tyres?!?! I mean, tan-wall contis would be great for this bike, no?


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## lkingscott (26 Dec 2022)

Does anyone have the dimensions of the T-Line main hinge pin and bushes?
I am repairing a broken hinge on a standard Brompton and the T-Line is a much better solution.
As the hinge is completely broken across the pivot on the rear half, I can build up and fit whatever I want, within reason. I was going to use an M6 smooth bolt and nylock, but the T-Line replaceable bushes, bolt and nut would be a much more elegant solution, if it can be made to fit.


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