# Over distance - over time



## Dogtrousers (27 Nov 2018)

I could probably find the answer to this with a bit of a search, but I'm lazy.

I'm looking at this, which is 426km. If I were to enter this I'd be dicing with the time limit.

The stated minimum speed is 15km/h. That would require 26:40 for 400k. But the time limit stated is 27:00 that's a minimum speed of 14.8 km/h.

So where did the extra 20 mins come from? I'm assuming that it's _*not *_because the event is 26km over-distance. If they'd taken that into account the cut off would be 426/15 = 28:24 . Is that due to some BR vs BRM shenanigans?

I'm coming to the conclusion that this is beyond me. 426 in 27 hours is a real world limit of 15.7 km/h and it's pretty hilly in places. But I'm a bit confused as to how they came to the 27hr limit.

And the last 20km contains the dreaded Birling Hill.

Shame, because logistically it would be very convenient.


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## Phaeton (27 Nov 2018)

Rounding, people prefer to see 15 than 14.8 it makes more sense


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## Ajax Bay (27 Nov 2018)

It's (registered as) a 400 BRM so the required completion time is defined (by ACP) as 27 hours. It doesn't matter how much 'over distance' it is (though you're correct to note that 5% is the stated 'limit'). But remember that the distance which needs to be less than 105% is the shortest practicable distance which will not be the same as the recommended route distance.
http://www.aukweb.net/_resources/files/official/AUK_Regulations_050418.pdf
"Brevet de Randonneur Mondiaux (BRM) a calendar event conforming to regulation 9 with modifications under regulation 10"
and Reg 10 reads (in part):
"10 Modifications of organisation and conduct applicable to Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux
10.1 BRM event distances and maximum time limits for their completion are as set down by ACP.
10.1.1 Only the standard distances may be organised.
10.1.2 Distances must not be more than 5% over the standard distances.
10.1.3 The maximum time limits for BRM events are:
- 200km within 13h30;
- 300km within 20h00;
- 400km within 27h00;
- 600km within 40h00;
and - 1000km within 75h00."


Dogtrousers said:


> I'm looking at this, which is 426km.
> the time limit stated is 27:00 that's a minimum speed of 14.8 km/h.
> So where did the extra 20 mins come from? I'm assuming that it's _*not *_because the event is 26km over-distance. If they'd taken that into account the cut off would be 426/15 = 28:24 . Is that due to some BR vs BRM shenanigans?


Edit: I have looked at the route and the controls and the shortest walking route is 402km:
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28980940?beta=false (so my third sentence above is relevant).


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## Racing roadkill (27 Nov 2018)

That’s less than 10mph, unless you’re doing it on a velocipede, or a Dandy horse. It’s not fast.


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## ColinJ (27 Nov 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> That’s less than 10mph, unless you’re doing it on a velocipede, or a Dandy horse. It’s not fast.


It's audax. Audax is _not _fast. In fact - audax _disqualifies _fast (average) speeds. The limit is 30 kph or 18.6 mph. It is _long _- that's the point!


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## Ian H (27 Nov 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> That’s less than 10mph, unless you’re doing it on a velocipede, or a Dandy horse. It’s not fast.


Indeed not, but it is about 260 miles.


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## mjr (27 Nov 2018)

ColinJ said:


> It's audax. Audax is _not _fast. In fact - audax _disqualifies _fast (average) speeds. The limit is 30 kph or 18.6 mph. It is _long _- that's the point!


Wasn't the point for the ride to be audacious?


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## Ian H (27 Nov 2018)

The 30k/hr limit is pretty much the metric equivalent of evens, or a fast club-run pace. That's not going to be easy to maintain over 400km, even on flat roads, given that you're not allowed support between controls, and there's no time-out for your stops.


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## ColinJ (27 Nov 2018)

mjr said:


> Wasn't the point for the ride to be audacious?


Apparently. Audaciously long, but not audaciously fast.

I used to be able to do very hilly 200s at 20 kph but I think I wouldn't even make the 15 kph cut-off now. I'd like to get back up to about that speed. I'll have to try a bit harder next year and see what I can do.

(It isn't just that I would enjoy riding faster - I'd also like to get round some long routes in daylight at times of year other than mid-summer.)


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## Ajax Bay (28 Nov 2018)

Racing roadkill said:


> It’s not fast.





mjr said:


> Wasn't the point for the ride to be audacious?


Anyone (include contributors to this thread) who completes a 400k ride in less than 27 hours (including stops) has had to ride at a decent lick (when moving) and keep going through the night. I think that the rider who takes more than a day - the so called 'full value' rider - actually has a harder ride than a faster/less stopping one. Attempting a ride of that length (they normally start at 6am), expecting to ride for 15 hours and then another 10 beyond sunrise the next day, in weather and scenery, is audacious, whatever overall speed the randonneur actually achieves.
Jamie's 'Avalon Sunrise 400' takes a different choice of start time: 22:30 (the end of twilight, close to mid-summer) and gets the night cycling done first with the prospect of riding east across the Somerset Levels as the sun rises behind Glastonbury Tor.
http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/audax-events/63-avalon-sunrise


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## Heltor Chasca (28 Nov 2018)

I don’t know @Dogtrousers I think (as a newbie to Audax) that a lot of this long distance stuff is in the mind. Perhaps tip your planning towards a more positive frame of mind and I will bet you a Noddy badge and a wooden spoon, that you CAN do this.


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## Fab Foodie (28 Nov 2018)

@Dogtrousers you can do it.
My longest ride of 350k was done in 27 hrs, however.... the first part was FNRttC to Bognor with the usual stopping and faffing. A leisurely breakfast and then solo’d the coast-road all the way back to Deal. That includes Birling gap, the monster hill at Hastings, Folkestone and Dover hills and some lesser lumps to boot.
Up until then my longest ever ride was 220k a fair while ago.
So I reckon with your experience and more regular distance riding it should be pretty doable for you!


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## Ming the Merciless (28 Nov 2018)

The slower you are, the more mental it gets. Get faster and the mental side gets easier.


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## burntoutbanger (29 Nov 2018)

A couple of winters ago I did a dusk till dawn ride of my own making, I finished on 295km (considerably my longest ride to date). It wasn't my legs that hurt by the end but my bum and shoulders/neck. Comfort is key IMO.


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## Ivo (29 Nov 2018)

Quite a lot of continental organisers do unofficially add some time for overdistance. During this years 400 in my area I manned a 'secret' control at 401km. When I reported to the organiser who was through within 27 hours and that would be used a the cut-off.


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## smutchin (29 Nov 2018)

Dogtrousers said:


> The extra 25km over the nominal distance pushes the required overall speed into an area where I can't confidently say I'd finish within the time, and would leave me with pretty much no contingency. Think of it like this: 25 is the baseline. Add an hour for the harder terrain. Add an hour for the extra distance. That's 27. No room left.



I think you're being slightly over-cautious with your time estimates (and slightly under-estimating your own abilities). Tom's rides are never flat but they are never gratuitously hard either, and Birling Hill isn't actually as bad as all that - it may seem pretty bad when you hit the steep bit in the middle, but like all hills, it ends eventually.

I'm probably choosing between this one and the Dauntsey Dawdle myself, or possibly the Asparagus & Strawberries again, but I'm mostly leaning towards this one - not least because the 9am start time means I can get the train there.


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