# trail bikes vs cross country bikes



## Mr Haematocrit (27 Oct 2013)

Recently I've been heading out to swinley forest trails with some friends and kinda got the trail riding bug big time but know little about MTB Bikes
I've decided its new bike time and have on order a S-Works Epic World Cup 29r which I have now noticed is defined as a XC (Cross Country) Bike (only brought it cos it looked OK IMHO)

Now my question are...

What is the difference between a XC bike and trail bike and should I buy a different kind of bike?
Will the Epic World Cup bike suffice for use on trails
What cleat system would you reccomend for someone who uses look pedals on the road.
You can see the spec's of the Epic WC at the following URL
http://specialized.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/epic/sworks-epic-29-wc

Any thoughts, comments, advise, suggestions for upgrades welcome.


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## Dusty Bin (27 Oct 2013)

I used to ride the trails at Swinley on a rigid hardtail (we all did back then) - the trails are relatively tame, so any modern MTB will probably do the job, except perhaps a full-on DH rig. As for pedals, there is no correlation between road systems and off-road systems, so use anything you like. I personally use Time Roc Atacs, but there's loads out there and they all do the same job, pretty much.


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## tribanjules (27 Oct 2013)

I ride with decathlon own brand "spd 520" clip-on pedals on my CX ( 19.99) - no probs at all once I had the bottle to ride clipped in off road !


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## Crackle (27 Oct 2013)

There's a lot of cross over and then there's the rider, who is probably the singlemost difference in what a bike can do. Trail bikes may have more suspension travel and slacker angles at the head and a higher stack height. Enables you to take bigger hits and not get knocked off line and get the front end up.

The bike you've specced is extremely capable and very nice and I guess it will ultimately depend on you and where you ride if it suits.

I don't use clipped in pedals off-road, just a pair of grippy pedals and a shoe/boot with a good sole.


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## Cubist (27 Oct 2013)

At entry level it's all pretty much of a muchness. However, once you get into specialist XC race bikes the weight, geometry and equipment will make the bikes far more "task specific", so you'll find 9kg carbon bikes with 80-100mm forks, carbon wheels, skinny (for knobblies) tyres, 140mm brake rotors, narrow bars and a general "arse up head down" position. Front head angles of 72 degrees mean the bikes are awesome for climbing and pedalling, but will be twitchy on descents and not designed to jump or drop. For what it's worth, a lot of serious XC bikes are 29ers. Big wheels able to roll over rough ish terrain with composure, but not necessarily all that good on tight twisty technical stuff. 

UK trail riding is pretty unique, so much so that some manufacturers make specific configurations solely aimed at the UK market. We differ because a lot of Euro or US riding tends to be either pure XC, gravity based Alpine riding, or Enduro style stuff, where races are timed on the descent sections, and the climbs are non-competitive. We are therefore pretty unique in wanting bikes that will climb as well as they descend. 

There's a specific genre of trail hardtail bike for example, known as the LT (long travel) hardtail that has an astonishing following. These are often niche or boutique brands, often with a whiff of mystique about them, and are almost always custom built. They range from the cheap and cheerful steel frames from the likes of On One, (456, Inbred) through new kids on the block Ragley (Blue Pig, Piglet, Marley) through seriously tough stuff from Dialled Bikes, NS, to exotic steel alloys Privee, Sanderson, Cotic and so on. They tend to be run with 120, 130 or 140mm forks, and some are capable of taking eyewatering abuse. These are the "trail hardtails" and have compact playful geometry, with short effective top tubes, snappy little chainstays and slack head angles (my Cotic Soul has a 68 degree head angle with a 120mm fork). It rides perfectly happily on UK red routes, demanding finesse and careful line choice, but rewarding with a sweet, fun compliant ride. Don't think that it can't be ragged about though, it's an absolute hoot to ride fast and hard on the sort of rocky nonsense that passes for bridleways here in the South Pennines. 

Full suss trail bikes are best described as burlier versions of XC bikes, but without getting so porky that they become difficult to ride uphill (or all day) . They are most commonly fitted with forks between 120 and 150mm travel. Rear suspension tends to be between 120 and 140mm. Forks will often be lightweight, and in fact general componentry will be aimed at lighter weight whilst retaining sufficient robust builds to withstand jumps, drops, rock gardens and so on, so they'll often have 2.35-2.5 inch tyres on strong wide rims. Bikes in this bracket will tend to weigh around the 12-14kg mark, so they won't race well! We start seeing dropper posts, double and single chainrings in this category. There are still a lot of 26 wheels in this genre, and the latest breakthrough would appear to be 650b. Typical Trail bikes would be Orange Fives, Santa Cruz Blur LT, Yeti 575, Specialised Pitch, Giant Trance, Trek Fuel. 

Enduro racing is proving to be very popular, and again, the market is starting to pick up around even burlier builds, with 160-180mm forks with 36mm stanchions for serious burliness, and 160mm rear travel. Heavier, stiffer frames with slack (66 degree typically) head angles, reinforced sidewall tyres, plenty of 1x10 transmission and builds of 30lb plus (14-15 kg not untypical). 

I ride with Shimano XT Trail pedals on all my off road bikes. Simple SPD system with a caged surround for dabbing purposes (gives a good target for clipping back in)


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## lukesdad (30 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I used to ride the trails at Swinley on a rigid hardtail (we all did back then) - the trails are relatively tame, so any modern MTB will probably do the job, except perhaps a full-on DH rig. As for pedals, there is no correlation between road systems and off-road systems, so use anything you like. I personally use Time Roc Atacs, but there's loads out there and they all do the same job, pretty much.


Could've only been a shaver then eh Dusty ? Bashed out a few Gorrick events around swinley in my time,it's pretty tame really.

To the OP that's an awful lot of dosh to be splashing out on something you know little about,it would seem ?


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## Dusty Bin (30 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Could've only been a shaver then eh Dusty ?



Shaver? I don't get it. Anyway, I've still got my Gorrick MBC jersey somewhere...


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## VamP (30 Oct 2013)

That's a surgical scalpel of a race weapon you have there Mr H. My concern as a relative neophyte in off-roading (I hope I'm not doing you a disservice) is that this will chew you up and spit you out. It's a bike for showing off your skillz, not picking them up.


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## lukesdad (30 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> Shaver? I don't get it. Anyway, I've still got my Gorrick MBC jersey somewhere...


Ah did you do the SAMS as well then ?


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## RecordAceFromNew (30 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> That's a surgical scalpel of a race weapon you have there Mr H. My concern as a relative neophyte in off-roading (I hope I'm not doing you a disservice) is that this will chew you up and spit you out. It's a bike for showing off your skillz, not picking them up.



+1. That is essentially the same bike Jaroslav Kulhavy won his mens XC Olympic gold here in 2012, so the bike's ability uphill and for technical challenges is not in doubt, but...

To my mind the main issue is it is pretty much all carbon. As a beginner (since you said you know nothing about mtb) you are going to drop/crash the bike numerous times if you have got the bug (which you also said you have). Are you going to replace bits dented/scratched every time (as one is supposed to with carbon, especially carbon this light), or ignore it?


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## VamP (30 Oct 2013)

Yep.

I race a bit of XC. I am not very skilled, and make up time on uphills and fast sections, but lose time on technical descents. I have tried a few out and out XC race bikes, and they are blisteringly fast, but unforgiving man. I like the bit of a safety net that the 120mm travel and slacker angles of my Pace provide.


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## Dusty Bin (30 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Ah did you do the SAMS as well then ?



You're going to have to remind me what 'SAMS' is/was - and 'shaver' too, if poss...


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## lukesdad (30 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> You're going to have to remind me what 'SAMS' is/was - and 'shaver' too, if poss...


Shaver- youngster
SAMS -southern champs series run at places like Aston Hill, Highclere, checkendon along with a few venues that used to change every year usually 6 rounds


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## Dusty Bin (30 Oct 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Shaver- youngster
> SAMS -southern champs series run at places like Aston Hill, Highclere, checkendon along with a few venues that used to change every year usually 6 rounds



I don't think I remember SAMS. I was pretty much 100% road from around 92 onwards, so maybe it was after that...


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## Mr Haematocrit (30 Oct 2013)

VamP said:


> That's a surgical scalpel of a race weapon you have there Mr H. My concern as a relative neophyte in off-roading (I hope I'm not doing you a disservice) is that this will chew you up and spit you out. It's a bike for showing off your skillz, not picking them up.



Its fine I'm used to being spat out. Not sure I have any skills though but I'm going to find out at some point.. Lol
I'll let you know how I get on or post the crash pictures at least


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## Mr Haematocrit (30 Oct 2013)

RecordAceFromNew said:


> +1. That is essentially the same bike Jaroslav Kulhavy won his mens XC Olympic gold here in 2012, so the bike's ability uphill and for technical challenges is not in doubt, but...
> 
> To my mind the main issue is it is pretty much all carbon. As a beginner (since you said you know nothing about mtb) you are going to drop/crash the bike numerous times if you have got the bug (which you also said you have). Are you going to replace bits dented/scratched every time (as one is supposed to with carbon, especially carbon this light), or ignore it?



I'm quite happy to replace bits as needed, that bit is less of a concern for me than falling off.

I'll get some pics up soon as it gets here


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## marzjennings (30 Oct 2013)

Nice bike, on my list for new XC racer for next season.

Biggest difference between XC and Trail, all mountain and downhill bike is generally the amount of abuse they can take. Suspension increases, frame strength increases, bar to saddle height decreases (XC saddles are generally higher, where DH bikes can have saddles lower than the bars).

Frame geometry shifts, pushing the rider towards the back of the bike depending on how downhill focused the bike is. The trail bike will sacrifice some pedaling efficiency in providing better handling traits in rough trail conditions.

But as mentioned, an Epic will work just fine at Swinley, even handling the odd drop and jump if the riders skill is sufficient enough to land the bike smoothly.

For pedals, I've been using XTR's for years and wouldn't choose anything else.


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## zizou (30 Oct 2013)

Mountain bikes in general have changed geometry a bit in recent years (slacker angles and more travel both of which help with descending) however the XC race bike geometry isnt all that much different to what many "normal" riders were on 15 years ago so its not a particular extreme frame only suitable for pros. In addition to this the modern bike is going to be a more forgiving a ride compared to the ones in the past because of the improvements in suspension and brakes. 

I'd say a the Epic is ideal for somewhere like Swinley. Stick some helicopter tape on it in key areas give it a bit of protection from scratches etc


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## lukesdad (31 Oct 2013)

Dusty Bin said:


> I don't think I remember SAMS. I was pretty much 100% road from around 92 onwards, so maybe it was after that...


Ah yes would have been later than that started in'96 I believe shame there seems to be no record of it on the Internet.


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## Mr Haematocrit (31 Oct 2013)

thanks for all the info guys


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