# Thoughts on a Dutch bike?



## Older then dirt (11 Jun 2020)

Afternoon everyone hope you're all safe an well. A couple of questions, I been looking for a bike that's low maintenance and easy to repair, a bike that is a workhorse and durable. The nearest I can remember is a sit up an beg type bike, the downside is weight on these bikes but if you come to a steep incline or hill walk it up. A good cyclist mate said how abt Dutch bike! So thought I would ask you guys, has anyone got one these bikes ......how do you find them to ride? Would such a bike be suitable for up to 15/20 mile round trip? A bike that is a dependable and reliable is more important to my needs on day to day basis


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## Lozz360 (11 Jun 2020)

They are heavy but robust. Comfortable on short journeys. Ideal for riding in town. I have only ridden them in the Netherlands (strange that!). Personally, I would prefer a road bike for a 15/20 mile round trip. Faster and more comfortable on the open road.


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## Chris S (11 Jun 2020)

I used to have a Batavus Barcelona. It was heavy and high geared but very comfortable. I'd regularly make 15 mile round trips on fairly flat ground. I wouldn't want to do it anywhere hilly though.


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## CanucksTraveller (11 Jun 2020)

I had one of the more modern, heavier duty Dutch bikes (a Batavus Entree) for a while in London, it was quite nice in a way (in that it was built like a tank and there weren't any others about). They're certainly good if you don't like maintenance (it had a Nexus Hub gear and roller brakes). On the downside they weigh an absolute ton, I mean not just heavy, they're super-heavyweight and really hard to manhandle, say if you need to cross a railway bridge. If you've ever ridden a Santander hire bike in London they feel and handle roughly similar.
If you mean the more traditional / retro Dutch bike (Batavus do one called the "Old Dutch") they're lighter, a little less bomb-proof, and even simpler, usually 3 speed.

I wouldn't want to regularly ride 20 miles on either one, or at least not unless I lived in Norfolk, and I was in "norfolking" hurry whatsoever.
They're likeable, but not designed for effficient distance covering.

To give a small insight into how most "Dutch" bikes are used I have a mate in Amsterdam who rides the bike below, but only for town use. He will do about 5-6 miles on it, maybe around the city to meet friends, bits of shopping (He says the front box is good for a slab of beer) and then ride back to his flat, but anything outside of the city and he rides a road bike.


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## Boopop (11 Jun 2020)

Town/dutch bikes are lovely but I think only for short ideally flat trips that are less than 3 or 4 miles. As @Lozz360 said for the sort of distance you're talking about I think a road bike would be the better option. I do like a good low maintenance town bike though.


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## mjr (11 Jun 2020)

Older then dirt said:


> A good cyclist mate said how abt Dutch bike! So thought I would ask you guys, has anyone got one these bikes ......how do you find them to ride? Would such a bike be suitable for up to 15/20 mile round trip? A bike that is a dependable and reliable is more important to my needs on day to day basis


I've an upgraded Dutchie Dapper (steel 3-speed with hub brakes and dynamo) and a Universal Riviera Sport (a Polish-made gas-pipe clone of an old English 3-speed roadster, so not really Dutch but close - lighter because it's got a wire rack, rim brakes and battery lights) which are probably described more in some of my old posts if you want to search.

I think they are gorgeous to ride, with a high riding position, long wheelbase (which can occasionally cause cornering trouble), plush tyres (Schwalbe Delta Cruisers) and sprung saddles. Very comfortable. Easy to look around you. My Dapper is probably now 17kg because my upgrades have added weight: the SA hubs are heavier than the originals - but I'm fairly tall and even my hybrid is 16kg.

They'll do 15/20 miles easy. Comfortable is comfortable. I'd barely know I've ridden 20. I've ridden centuries on mine. I've ridden one of them across a small country on tour. What they won't do is fast: because I've got low gears for carrying/pulling loads and the occasional medium-steep hill, they've not got a high top gear for churning along the long flat roads (high cadence is the current fashion, isn't it?) and they've not really got the aerodynamics to compare with a road bike, not even with so-called "Dutch tri bars" position (grabbing the tops by the stem and leaning forwards). All that also means they're not ideal on many group rides, as you end up feeling a bit like you've taken a knife to a gun fight - you can do the distance and usually the speed, but the handling, acceleration and deceleration are very different to most around you.

The Dutchie Dapper has been mostly dependable and reliable. I had a few disagreements with its original Shimano Nexus coaster-brake hub but even during that, it always got me home. It gets ridden as first choice year-round except when it's icy (my old hybrid has studded tyres on). Maintenance is weekly check the air, oil the chain and check/adjust chain tension and check wear. Once every month or two, disconnect the shifter and inject semi-fluid grease (Landrover CV joint grease) into the gearbox. Annually, regrease the headset, check/replace cables, clean dust out of the brake drums and squirt grease into the front hub bearings. Replace the BB cartridge when it stuffs up (I would prefer cup-and-cone but many wouldn't).

The Universal is not as reliable, but that's mainly due to it being a cheap clone, being old and me learning what I was doing with its mechanicals. Oh and it's currently awaiting repair because I carelessly hit a tree - only damage was a cracked axle washer, though.


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## Salar (11 Jun 2020)

Very nice write up @mjr 

One day I might treat myself to one for tootling along the local traffic free trails, but I'd need the 8 speed as we have some hills in Wales.
Sensible prices too, I expect they are selling loads of them at the moment.


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

Boopop said:


> Town/dutch bikes are lovely but I think only for short ideally flat trips that are less than 3 or 4 miles. As @Lozz360 said for the sort of distance you're talking about I think a road bike would be the better option. I do like a good low maintenance town bike though.



Why wouldn't it be fine for many miles more on the flat? I am sure I read a book about some women did a european tour in the 1930's on similar bikes. I keep looking for one for canal trips but might have to widen my search away from Yorkshire!


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## Boopop (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> Why wouldn't it be fine for many miles more on the flat? I am sure I read a book about some women did a european tour in the 1930's on similar bikes. I keep looking for one for canal trips but might have to widen my search away from Yorkshire!



Well it's not like the thing would cease to function after 4 miles, it's just I know for me personally if I was going to ride 20 miles a day I'd want to do it on a bike that required little effort to ride...especially if hills were involved. Nothing to stop someone doing that distance reguarly on a town bike I just know that for myself at least I'd be pretty worn out doing 100 miles a week on a town bike. Even on flat ground that weight still matters - the more someone has to stop and start the more noticable it will be.


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## bitsandbobs (11 Jun 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> To give a small insight into how most "Dutch" bikes are used I have a mate in Amsterdam who rides the bike below, but only for town use. He will do about 5-6 miles on it, maybe around the city to meet friends, bits of shopping (He says the front box is good for a slab of beer) and then ride back to his flat, but anything outside of the city and he rides a road bike.



That is very true. 

I have a Gazelle Tour Populaire which weighs a ton. Great for riding around town and doing the shopping, but hideous for riding any distance.


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## MichaelW2 (11 Jun 2020)

The steel Dutch granny bike is suitable for cruising around a flat city. For everyday 2*7+ commuting I would want something more modern.
You can get up to date, low maintenance, easy riding bikes. Look for aluminium frame, Shimano Nexus or Alfine gears, dynamo hub lighting, full mudguards and rear rack. This is typically of modern Dutch/German/Danish commuter bikes. My commuter is set up in this style and I have used it for 2*8 mile commuting for 12 years.

Example

https://m.bikester.co.uk/ortler-mon...MI1t3o-4f66QIVybHtCh2IJgvIEAQYAiABEgLD_fD_BwE


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## wafter (11 Jun 2020)

I'll add my name to the list of those who think you'll struggle. I've done 20-30 glorious sunny miles in one hit on a Dutch bike (in the Netherlands) but it was very slow progress. I also have an Ofo which is similar in terms of mass / riding position / typical gearing. 

Mass is only one of the issues to consider along with drag and gearing; none of which are favourable for covering distance at a reasonable speed and cadence. As it happens I've just been out on the ofo and despite having built up a fair bit of fitness recently it's still pretty punishing; usually due to hills / in headwinds where it's affected massively. 

As others have said for short, slow, comfortable urban journeys Dutch bikes are great. For efficienctly covering distance over hilly terrain they're not. I'd suggest your best bet would be an "all road" bike or if you're not a fan of drops a hybrid


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

Think it's more down to the rider than the bicycle, there is only 1kg difference between @mjr 's Dutch bike and his hybrid and if the latter weighs 16kg anyway......my regular leisure ride is a flat (ish) 45 miles on a Dawes 501 (2010) which weighs in at 16kg with a rack. I want a Dutch bike for that same ride and expect to be comfier although no doubt slower too!

I don't know what hills the OP has to ride up/down, maybe a Btwin 7 geared Elops might suit? MrsF has one and if I can't get a Dutch bike soonish I might get one too, a bargain at £229.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/elops-520-classic-bike-green-id_8378493.html


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## alicat (11 Jun 2020)

I love my sit up and beg bike. I occasionally ride it out into the countryside near me at the moment. About four miles each way is fun and after that I long for something lighter and more aerodynamic.


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## ChrisEyles (11 Jun 2020)

I loved the Dutch bike I borrowed when I lived in Amsterdam for six months as a student. 

The only downside I can see is that if it's a 3 speed hub geared bike (or perhaps even 8 speed, don't know what the range is like on them), you'll be geared quite high for steep hills. 

Other than that you may go a tad slower than you would on a road bike but could easily do a 40 mile ride. 

I now have a 1950s Raleigh Sports sit-up-and-beg bike - I have to pick and choose the routes I do on it, with a single speed drive train and rod brakes it doesn't like going up/down steep hills much, but on flat/rolling terrain it's lovely.


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## Salar (11 Jun 2020)

Slightly different concept, but apparently popular in the States and for sale over here the "Electra Townie" range of bikes might do.

Strange name though as they are not an electric bike.


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

ChrisEyles said:


> I loved the Dutch bike I borrowed when I lived in Amsterdam for six months as a student.
> 
> The only downside I can see is that if it's a 3 speed hub geared bike (or perhaps even 8 speed, don't know what the range is like on them), you'll be geared quite high for steep hills.
> 
> ...



Sounds great, got a pic?

I've been looking for a year or more for dutch/cruiser/whatever bike for 45/55 canal rides where I can just amble and not get neck ache.


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## Mike_P (11 Jun 2020)

I have a Giant ebike that is a Dutch Roadster, great for commutes and shopping trips where the upright position makes carrying a heavy rucksack less of a strain on the back. Photo is post customisation as their is no branding on the downtube as supplied which made it look to me like it had been resprayed and not finished off.


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## ChrisEyles (11 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> Sounds great, got a pic?
> 
> I've been looking for a year or more for dutch/cruiser/whatever bike for 45/55 canal rides where I can just amble and not get neck ache.



Sadly I don't have a pic of the Dutch roadster I borrowed from my boss while I was living in Amsterdam (it would have been received through the post from kodak if I had, it was a while ago!). 

Happy to oblige with one of my Raleigh Sports though


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## ChrisEyles (11 Jun 2020)




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## ChrisEyles (11 Jun 2020)

It's now got a nicer saddle on it, and matching white wall tyres: 






Unfortunately it's so hilly where we're living at the moment, and the only flat route (canal towpath) is such a nightmare for punctures, that it hasn't seen much use over the past couple of years. 

We're moving to Bristol at some point, and I'm looking forward to riding it along the Bristol-Bath old railway line to visit friends


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## ChrisEyles (11 Jun 2020)

Despite appearances it's a good deal more lively than a true Dutch roadster. I think this is mostly down to the smaller wheel size. There is also a slight downward angle to the top tube, which is unusual. It's still pretty sit-up-and-beg compared to any of my other bikes though!


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## MarkF (11 Jun 2020)

ChrisEyles said:


> It's now got a nicer saddle on it, and matching white wall tyres:
> 
> View attachment 529228
> 
> ...



What a cool bike, just what I'd like. It would be well suited where I live, an ace towpath goimg east 11 miles to Leeds or west 20+ to Skipton. Tbh I was going to say how the mis-matched tyres made it bang on! I saw something on Ebay earlier a Raleigh something (Diplomat? ) in Manchester but it was finishing in a few mins & I didn't have time to research. Something will turn up, it always does.


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## MichaelW2 (11 Jun 2020)

Salar said:


> Slightly different concept, but apparently popular in the States and for sale over here the "Electra Townie" range of bikes might do.
> 
> Strange name though as they are not an electric bike.


Electra are US style cruisers, most at home on the seaside promanade bike path with an ice cream in one hand.


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## Moodyman (11 Jun 2020)

To the OP, if you want a low maintenance bike that'll be brisk over longer distances look for bikes like a Genesis Day One or Cube Hyde Pro. They have hub gears, disk brakes and full mudguards mounts.

But, don't think low maintenance means no maintenance. Hub gears, whilst durable, need a service every so often and not every bike shop is comfortable doing this. Also, spares for hub gears are less common than derailleur set ups, but if you're mechanically minded, there are lots of online resources to make them a doddle to live with.


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## mjr (11 Jun 2020)

wafter said:


> I'll add my name to the list of those who think you'll struggle. I've done 20-30 glorious sunny miles in one hit on a Dutch bike (in the Netherlands) but it was very slow progress. I also have an Ofo which is similar in terms of mass / riding position / typical gearing.


If an Ofo is similar to the Dutch bike you rode, then both were very different to mine! The Cambridge Ofo I rode was a heavy lump with a low riding position and I think harsh alloy frame and solid tyres.

Yeah, contrary to what someone posted above, I'd go for a forgiving steel frame on a Dutch bike rather than aluminium every time.



wafter said:


> As others have said for short, slow, comfortable urban journeys Dutch bikes are great. For efficienctly covering distance over hilly terrain they're not. I'd suggest your best bet would be an "all road" bike or if you're not a fan of drops a hybrid


If you wanted the classic solution to doing long distance, it would be a "road/path" like the Gazelle Van Stael or Pashley Guvnor. Even though I got a hybrid (my first ever new bike!) and rode it for years, there aren't many things a hybrid will do better than a Dutch bike, except keep a bike mechanic in work!


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## mjr (12 Jun 2020)

Moodyman said:


> But, don't think low maintenance means no maintenance. Hub gears, whilst durable, need a service every so often and not every bike shop is comfortable doing this. Also, spares for hub gears are less common than derailleur set ups, but if you're mechanically minded, there are lots of online resources to make them a doddle to live with.


That's one of the reasons I switched from Shimano to Sturmey-Archer. The AW has a reputation as Always Works with good reason, servicing is usually basically taking the innards out, checking nothing is smashed up, then refit, and if you were daft enough, you could build a new hub from the available spares. Meanwhile, Shimano Nexus/Alfine hubs officially require a dip in expensive special oil every year or N thousand miles (whichever comes first) and only a few bearings and brake parts are available as spares. In general, if a Shimano hub gear is damaged, you junk all the innards and stick a new one in, but given the iffy reports about SA 8-speeds, Shimano is probably a better option for that.


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## mjr (12 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> Think it's more down to the rider than the bicycle, there is only 1kg difference between @mjr 's Dutch bike and his hybrid and if the latter weighs 16kg anyway......my regular leisure ride is a flat (ish) 45 miles on a Dawes 501 (2010) which weighs in at 16kg with a rack. I want a Dutch bike for that same ride and expect to be comfier although no doubt slower too!


Like @alicat later replied, it ain't the weight which slows you so much as the aerodynamics, or lack thereof! Even hunkered down, I'm still awfully tall on the Dutch bike compared to the more compact road bike's position.


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## wafter (12 Jun 2020)

mjr said:


> If an Ofo is similar to the Dutch bike you rode, then both were very different to mine! The Cambridge Ofo I rode was a heavy lump with a low riding position and I think harsh alloy frame and solid tyres.
> 
> Yeah, contrary to what someone posted above, I'd go for a forgiving steel frame on a Dutch bike rather than aluminium every time.


Well, of course there were differences but the broad strokes were extremely similar:

- Both are very heavy (the ofo is around 16-17kg, I'd estimate the town bike to be similar or even more)
- Both have an extremely upright riding position / short reach, high stack that's comfy and forgiving but terrible for drag at speed and in headwinds; I think a max effort on the flat on either got me around 17-18mph, when it'd be high-20s on a road bike.
- Both have internal hub gears and gripshift; the ofo only 3-spd the town bike was 8-spd so better in this regard but still limited in terms of range and spacing compared to 2x10 or 2x11 setup
- Both have wide-ish tyres of around 35-40mm
- Both have big fat saddles

You make good points about the ofo you rode; however mine has been fettled so now has a proper-height saddle (was about 3" too low before and bloody horrible for it) and decent pneumatic tyres. Obviously steel would be nicer but the bulk of the compliance comes from the tyres and now they've been changed the ofo doesn't feel harsh in the slightest. 

I kept the ofo for the same attributes as one would seek in a town bike (weather resistance, convenience, comfort, low maintenance). Generally it's great as a short-distance (ideally sub-10 miles) utility bike as long as you have no intention of going fast and can endure the effort required to get up hills and overcome headwinds. 

So I stand by my original post based on the (very similar) experience of both bikes


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## overmind (12 Jun 2020)

I would get a 6 speed hybrid bike from decathlon with rim brakes. No front derailleur. I think they are no more Than £150 (some even come with mudguards and rack).

I have found derailleur type gears to be incredibly reliable. If you don't want to maintain it I would just replace it every 2 years ( and sell the old one).


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## MarkF (12 Jun 2020)

overmind said:


> I would get a 6 speed hybrid bike from decathlon with rim brakes. No front derailleur. I think they are no more Than £150 (some even come with mudguards and rack).
> 
> I have found derailleur type gears to be incredibly reliable. If you don't want to maintain it I would just replace it every 2 years ( and sell the old one).



The Riverside? Most Spanish rental shops stock those, I don't fly out my bike for short trips so just rent them and have done several tours on them with luggage. They are incredible value, really basic but really tough. Ugly too.


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## overmind (12 Jun 2020)

MarkF said:


> The Riverside? Most Spanish rental shops stock those, I don't fly out my bike for short trips so just rent them and have done several tours on them with luggage. They are incredible value, really basic but really tough. Ugly too.



Yes. That is the one. I rented one of these from a hotel in Rincon de la Victoria and cycled 20 miles along the coast to Malaga (and back). The thing was bombproof. I thought I might get a puncture but I was fine. It was an absolutely fantastic ride. The funny thing was that it was light rain all day; but it was warm rain and I did not mind a bit.

Riverside 100 (fantastic value)


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## Notafettler (12 Jun 2020)

An power assist electric bike is an obvious choice as most of the quality ones come with hub gears.
Hub gears are necessity as resetting deraillures is a pain which I never got the hang off.
So hub gears a definite. 
Disc brakes last longer than rim brakes and are not that hard to renew yourself. Cable or hydraulic? I think hydraulic no cable....damn cant make my mind up!
And marathon plus tyres with inner tubes that contain green slime just for extra bit of protection. 
A better option in terms of gears is Rohloff a bit over the top though. 
Not sure I would be looking at a Dutch bike. A town bike is lighter (I assume) and you could always get a more appropriate handle bars. Butterfly handlebars set more upright. 
One of the advantages of a more upright position is you can actually see what's around you. I spot more things the more upright I am.


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## mjr (12 Jun 2020)

Notafettler said:


> Not sure I would be looking at a Dutch bike. A town bike is lighter (I assume)


Assumption is the mother of all... 

Town bikes are generally heavier than Dutch ones because the front racks are much beefier, to carry all the goods.


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## Ming the Merciless (12 Jun 2020)

Hillls are about gearing. If you have low enough gearing it’ll be fine. No harder than any other bike. For a 7 mile ride your speed doesn’t matter that much, does it? So see what you can find for Dutch style bikes with hub gears.


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## Older then dirt (14 Jun 2020)

CanucksTraveller said:


> I had one of the more modern, heavier duty Dutch bikes (a Batavus Entree) for a while in London, it was quite nice in a way (in that it was built like a tank and there weren't any others about). They're certainly good if you don't like maintenance (it had a Nexus Hub gear and roller brakes). On the downside they weigh an absolute ton, I mean not just heavy, they're super-heavyweight and really hard to manhandle, say if you need to cross a railway bridge. If you've ever ridden a Santander hire bike in London they feel and handle roughly similar.
> If you mean the more traditional / retro Dutch bike (Batavus do one called the "Old Dutch") they're lighter, a little less bomb-proof, and even simpler, usually 3 speed.
> 
> I wouldn't want to regularly ride 20 miles on either one, or at least not unless I lived in Norfolk, and I was in "norfolking" hurry whatsoever.
> ...


Looks like I will need to see about a bike similar to a Dutch bike but lighter in weight. Thanks for help


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## Older then dirt (14 Jun 2020)

ChrisEyles said:


> It's now got a nicer saddle on it, and matching white wall tyres:
> 
> View attachment 529228
> 
> ...


Very classy, reminds me of the triumph or Hercules


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## SkipdiverJohn (14 Jun 2020)

Older then dirt said:


> I been looking for a bike that's low maintenance and easy to repair, a bike that is a workhorse and durable. The nearest I can remember is a sit up an beg type bike, the downside is weight on these bikes but if you come to a steep incline or hill walk it up. A good cyclist mate said how abt Dutch bike! So thought I would ask you guys, has anyone got one these bikes ......how do you find them to ride? Would such a bike be suitable for up to 15/20 mile round trip? A bike that is a dependable and reliable is more important to my needs on day to day basis



A traditional steel framed 3-speed is the ultimate in low-hassle, low-maintenance, low-cost cycling. Weight varies by a large amount according to the style of machine and how fully loaded it is with accessories. the lightweight end is 26" wheels and 35lbs, the heavyweight on 28" wheels, with dyno lights, hub brakes and anything else you could conceivably need can get closer to 50 lbs.




CanucksTraveller said:


> I wouldn't want to regularly ride 20 miles on either one, or at least not unless I lived in Norfolk, and I was in "norfolking" hurry whatsoever.
> They're likeable, but not designed for effficient distance covering.





Boopop said:


> Town/dutch bikes are lovely but I think only for short ideally flat trips that are less than 3 or 4 miles.



I regularly do 20+ mile rides on my 3-speed Raleigh Dawn Tourist, which is as traditional as they come. Distance is not an issue so long as you stick a water bottle in your saddlebag and lose the "speed really matters" mindset and just enjoy the scenery. Gearing is Sturmey AW (Always Works as @mjr correctly points out) and you get gears of 50", 63", and 84". The middle gear is perfect for pootling along the flat.





At 41 lbs in weight, it certainly isn't the fastest or easiest thing to get uphill, but in it's 50" Low gear I can generally get it to the top of whatever I'm climbing without walking it up. You don't ride standing up to climb gradients on these things though, you stay in the saddle grit your teeth and build up your leg muscles! 

The notion of "efficiency" depends on how you quantify it. A lightweight road bike might get you further in the same time, or further for the same energy expenditure, but what about the non-riding time? I get the impression on here that a lot of people spend nearly as much time cleaning and tinkering with their road bikes after a ride as they do riding it. On the other hand all a 3-speed needs is air in the tyres and an occasional squirt of oil - and that's it. You jump on, ride, and jump off. No arsing around with toothbrush cleaning and polishing rituals. The time saved on not doing all that nonsense will more than make up for the fact they are a bit slower.


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## mjr (14 Jun 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> Gearing is Sturmey AW (Always Works as @mjr correctly points out) and you get gears of 50", 63", and 84". The middle gear is perfect for pootling along the flat.


I'm with Sheldon Brown on this: top gear is my flat pootler (admittedly a brisk one at 72") but that means bottom gear is 42" which got me up the biggest hill in the Netherlands and I think I would have made it up the 14% from Belgium into Luxembourg if I hadn't stopped to let a tractor past!


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## DCBassman (15 Jun 2020)

Jeepers...my bottom gear is about 22" on the Scott (23lb) and 19.5" on the Trek (33lb).
I obviously am not trying hard enough!


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## SkipdiverJohn (15 Jun 2020)

I wouldn't want to ride with the 3-speed gearing I've got in a hilly place like say, Cornwall. Most of my mileage is on fairly flat terrain give or take a couple of percent. A small proportion does involve real gradients like bridges and natural hills, but these are a small enough percentage of my mileage to be treated as a brief muscle-builder interval in between my normal pootling level of ride intensity. If I was getting sore knees after my 3-speed rides, that would be the warning sign that maybe I was grinding a bit too hard and needed to lower my gears a bit.
On a 20-ish miler, it's manageable and not too much of a leg killer. If I'm going to ride 30 or more miles I will always use a bike with a wider gear range, just so it's available. You never know when the wind might change direction or you develop a painful twinge that dictates a lower effort level to limp home with.


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## mjr (15 Jun 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Jeepers...my bottom gear is about 22" on the Scott (23lb) and 19.5" on the Trek (33lb).
> I obviously am not trying hard enough!


Presumably both derailleured? One really can get by with a bit higher bottom gear on a hub gear / single-speed / fixed with its thicker ⅛" chain under good tension - and when you can't, it's a nice day for a walk...


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## DCBassman (15 Jun 2020)

mjr said:


> Presumably both derailleured? One really can get by with a bit higher bottom gear on a hub gear / single-speed / fixed with its thicker ⅛" chain under good tension - and when you can't, it's a nice day for a walk...


Absolutely deraillured...It's real lumpy around here!


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## mjr (15 Jun 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Absolutely deraillured...It's real lumpy around here!


I know. I don't remember what bottom gear on my road bike was but it wasn't low enough! I think I migh end up with a seriously warranty-voiding 33-44-59 inches on an AW if I lived there and would still walk some.


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## Chris S (21 Jun 2020)

overmind said:


> Yes. That is the one. I rented one of these from a hotel in Rincon de la Victoria and cycled 20 miles along the coast to Malaga (and back). The thing was bombproof. I thought I might get a puncture but I was fine. It was an absolutely fantastic ride. The funny thing was that it was light rain all day; but it was warm rain and I did not mind a bit.
> 
> Riverside 100 (fantastic value)
> View attachment 529354


Have you seen the reviews for these?
_Bike is not good enough
Good bike, if you use it infrequently_

Decathlon's response was the same, "Thank you for posting a review of this bike. Indeed it is not intended for daily use ..."
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/hyc-riverside-100-black-cn-id_8405298.html


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## MarkF (21 Jun 2020)

Chris S said:


> Have you seen the reviews for these?
> _Bike is not good enough
> Good bike, if you use it infrequently_
> 
> ...



That's where real life reviews are important. These bikes are ubiquitius in Spanish hire shops, from Bilbao to Malaga. It's a cheap, sturdy, simple bike, I might go in a shop and take my time before renting the right one, but for a week I can't be bothered to fly my own bike out and I've done multiple loaded tours in Spain on these with zero issues.


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## Eribiste (21 Jun 2020)

For quite a long time I had a Pashley Roadster Sovereign, 5 speed, which is as close as you like to a Dutch style bicycle except they're made in Stratford-upon-Avon. I really liked it, even if it was a little weighty and a bit short on hill climb gearing. You get real style, a splendid Brooks B33 saddle, a magnificent ding-dong bell (which probably weighs as mush as a road bike on its own), hub brakes, hub dynamo for the front light and so on. I used to do trips up to 40 miles or so on it. For trips to the shops they're great, none of that funny pedals or dubious lycra clothing shenanigans. Recommended. If I'm honest I'd like another one.


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## Eribiste (21 Jun 2020)

Proper attire for gentlemanly riding.

One may loosen one's tie a little to avoid unseemly perspiration on inclines.


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## tyred (21 Jun 2020)

You definitely can do long rides on a Dutch type bike.





This is my 1951 Rudge 3 speed, probably weighs ~50lb and I've done hilly half centuries on it and I love it. It won't be fast in the hills and you may have walk from time to time but what is the rush if you're out for the day? With a 22 tooth sprocket fitted, I can climb most things on it anyway and I've done loaded touring in coastal areas on a 3 speed Bromptom which isn't much different in theory.


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## Cycleops (22 Jun 2020)

Full respect @tyred  not sure I could do that.


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## MarkF (22 Jun 2020)

tyred said:


> You definitely can do long rides on a Dutch type bike.
> 
> 
> View attachment 531591
> ...


 What a gorgeous bike.


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## SkipdiverJohn (25 Jun 2020)

A 22 tooth rear sprocket makes a huge difference to the overall gearing. Generally most Raleigh family roadsters such as @tyred's Rudge, were either supplied with 46/18 or at most 46/19 gearing with an AW or AG hub. My own "lightweight" 26" rod braked Raleigh has 46/19, which I assume is how it was made as everything on it looks to be untouched from the factory. I can manage most gradients I encounter in the L gear with 46/19, although I have got off and walked a couple of times to save my legs for the return journey. I have considered going to 46/20 but no gradient I have encountered so far has forced my hand.


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## Moon bunny (27 Aug 2020)

This thread has got me hankering for my old Pashley again. I miss being able to just get on and go without having to change shorts and shoes. Perhaps a new mixte is in order.


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## DCBassman (27 Aug 2020)

Moon bunny said:


> This thread has got me hankering for my old Pashley again. I miss being able to just get on and go without having to change shorts and shoes. Perhaps a new mixte is in order.


Can't beat a nice mixte. Looking forward to doing up my newly acquired Revell.


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## MarkF (27 Aug 2020)

I was looking for a "Dutch" bike for ages, just for leisurely canal jaunts but these for me can be 50 milers. Then I saw the light and started looking at old Raleighs, after a fair few months I collected this Superbe today, it's pretty much mint, 125 miles from new. I paid £160 which might just get me a very manky Batavus.


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## DCBassman (27 Aug 2020)

Superbe!


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## MarkF (27 Aug 2020)

DCBassman said:


> Superbe!



It is, I even endured my least favourite route/direction, into darkest Lancashire, Pendle, Colne, Burnley, Accrington, depressed to hell before Blackburn but on I went to.....Preston. Can't fault it and it should be just the job for lazy days. There are some nice Raleigh Superbes and Chilterns on Ebay at the mo' and a poster on here has a mint 21" Superbe up for grabs.


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## tyred (27 Aug 2020)

MarkF said:


> I was looking for a "Dutch" bike for ages, just for leisurely canal jaunts but these for me can be 50 milers. Then I saw the light and started looking at old Raleighs, after a fair few months I collected this Superbe today, it's pretty much mint, 125 miles from new. I paid £160 which might just get me a very manky Batavus.
> 
> View attachment 543967


I like that


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## slowmotion (27 Aug 2020)

My daughter was looking at a Dutch-style bike for commuting to work in London. It looked really good......but it weighed over 19 kg. I was horrified. I'm currently trying to persuade her to get a step-through hybrid instead, weighing a little over 13kg.


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## mjr (27 Aug 2020)

slowmotion said:


> My daughter was looking at a Dutch-style bike for commuting to work in London. It looked really good......but it weighed over 19 kg. I was horrified. I'm currently trying to persuade her to get a step-through hybrid instead, weighing a little over 13kg.


Why not get a lighter Dutch-style bike? Except for Pashley and one or two others, I think most brands have a basic model around 15kg, but personally, I'd accept the weight for the comfort and reliability of hub brakes, hub gears and dynamo. It's not like there are mountains in London and most of the time, you coast down anything you ride up.

I don't understand the UK obsession with weight that results in so many purchases of harsh-riding road-MTB hybrids with fragile derailleurs often listed with the weight of a XS frame without rack, mudguards, pedals and sometimes not even a saddle!


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## slowmotion (28 Aug 2020)

mjr said:


> It's not like there are mountains in London and most of the time, you coast down anything you ride up.



Isn't that rather like saying "Climbing K2 is easy......you just hang-glide from the summit"?


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## mjr (28 Aug 2020)

slowmotion said:


> Isn't that rather like saying "Climbing K2 is easy......you just hang-glide from the summit"?


I was aiming for "you won't find K2 up a turning off Balham High Road".


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## slowmotion (28 Aug 2020)

mjr said:


> I was aiming for "you won't find K2 up a turning off Balham High Road".


Her flat's at the top of Brixton Hill actually, and she works in the City. Why suffer every day lugging useless kilograms around, fighting gravity?


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## mjr (28 Aug 2020)

slowmotion said:


> Her flat's at the top of Brixton Hill actually, and she works in the City. Why suffer every day lugging useless kilograms around, fighting gravity?


It's not fighting gravity. It's storing potential energy for the next trip out!

Also, what's the real weight of a 13kg hybrid when it's in the desired size and got rack, guards and other fittings on?


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## slowmotion (28 Aug 2020)

mjr said:


> It's not fighting gravity. It's storing potential energy for the next trip out!
> 
> Also, what's the real weight of a 13kg hybrid when it's in the desired size and got rack, guards and other fittings on?


It's whatever weight you choose. Feel free to add a couple of 20kg bags of cement if it makes you happy.


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## MarkF (28 Aug 2020)

slowmotion said:


> Her flat's at the top of Brixton Hill actually, and she works in the City. Why suffer every day lugging useless kilograms around, fighting gravity?



Style in my daughters case, she wouldn't be seen dead on a hybrid or MTB, both her bikes are Dutch style ones, 3 speed and a lot of metal. 1 in flat Hull but the other in hilly Leeds.


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## matticus (28 Aug 2020)

tyred said:


> You definitely can do long rides on a Dutch type bike.
> 
> 
> View attachment 531591
> ...


Nice bike, nice pic!

For even longer rides - done on a Pashley - talk to this guy (PBP and LEL rider): https://twitter.com/sirwobbly?lang=en


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## matticus (28 Aug 2020)

MarkF said:


> Style in my daughters case, she wouldn't be seen dead on a hybrid or MTB,


I'm liking her already :P


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## SkipdiverJohn (28 Aug 2020)

MarkF said:


> Then I saw the light and started looking at old Raleighs, after a fair few months I collected this Superbe today, it's pretty much mint, 125 miles from new. I paid £160 which might just get me a very manky Batavus.
> 
> View attachment 543967



That's worth a double like, but the forum doesn't allow it! Pretty much identical to my one, but in much nicer condition. Mind you, mine only cost the price of one of it's replacement Marathon tyres. but even with my ultra-frugal approach to cycling, I would have happily paid that price for such a nice example. Look after it well, it has already long since outlived the factory that made it. The Raleigh 3-speed represents the high water mark in practical utility cycling and those of us who own one should keep it going as long as possible.



mjr said:


> I'd accept the weight for the comfort and reliability of hub brakes, hub gears and dynamo. It's not like there are mountains in London and most of the time, you coast down anything you ride up.
> 
> I don't understand the UK obsession with weight that results in so many purchases of harsh-riding road-MTB hybrids with fragile derailleurs often listed with the weight of a XS frame without rack, mudguards, pedals and sometimes not even a saddle!



London may not have mountains, but it still has some pretty nasty hills. I would draw the line at attempting to ride my rod-braked 3-speed in certain parts of Hampstead, Highgate, Muswell Hill, Barnet, or Northwood to name some that come easily to mind. For example I can count the number of riders I've ever observed climbing the length of Barnet Hill up past the underground station, on the fingers of one hand - and they were all on derailleur bikes with granny rings. Not one SS/Fixie or 3-speed seen.


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## mjr (28 Aug 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> For example I can count the number of riders I've ever observed climbing the length of Barnet Hill up past the underground station, on the fingers of one hand - and they were all on derailleur bikes with granny rings. Not one SS/Fixie or 3-speed seen.


Isn't Barnet Hill one that's fairly easy to go up on quieter side roads that are less steep? So you're basically saying dafter riders ride derailleur in town?


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## Paulus (28 Aug 2020)

mjr said:


> Isn't Barnet Hill one that's fairly easy to go up on quieter side roads that are less steep? So you're basically saying dafter riders ride derailleur in town?


Barnet hill is not hard to ride up as it is a man made embankment, built in the early 1800's. The horses struggled to pull the carts and coaches up the original road. The side roads are much steeper on both sides.

Muswell Hill, Highgate west hill and Swains lane are very steep indeed, although you can get up them with low enough gearing.


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## Moon bunny (29 Aug 2020)

Moon bunny said:


> This thread has got me hankering for my old Pashley again. I miss being able to just get on and go without having to change shorts and shoes. Perhaps a new mixte is in order.


Two days later and a Pashley Aurora is on order. I must be getting slow in my old age.


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## DCBassman (29 Aug 2020)

Lovely! I'm going to thoroughly enjoy renovating and riding my Revell. I do wish we Brits wouldn't call mixtes ladies' bikes - they're unisex town bikes.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Aug 2020)

Paulus said:


> Barnet hill is not hard to ride up as it is a man made embankment, built in the early 1800's. The horses struggled to pull the carts and coaches up the original road. The side roads are much steeper on both sides.



That's interesting to learn about the man-made bit. I have always wondered why it is so straight! No, it's not super steep, but it's a long drag and you've got the traffic lights to get caught by at the top end. Another bit of road I wouldn't be keen cycling on without really low gearing in your manor is the northbound A111 out of Cockfosters up to the M25 junction.


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## Paulus (29 Aug 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> That's interesting to learn about the man-made bit. I have always wondered why it is so straight! No, it's not super steep, but it's a long drag and you've got the traffic lights to get caught by at the top end. Another bit of road I wouldn't be keen cycling on without really low gearing in your manor is the northbound A111 out of Cockfosters up to the M25 junction.


Barnet hill was built by Thomas Telford and Robert McAdam. If you stand at the bottom of the hill and look up it is quite clearly an embankment. As the main road is a little bit back towards Whetstone. Prickers Hill is the same. The original level of the land on either side of the road is much lower.
Stag Hill is the climb from Cockfosters up to the M25 junction. Only short but quite steep.


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## SkipdiverJohn (29 Aug 2020)

Paulus said:


> Stag Hill is the climb from Cockfosters up to the M25 junction. Only short but quite steep.



The bit between the mini-roundabout at Beech Hill to the motorway is the nastiest bit I'm thinking of. I once had to do multiple hill starts on that bit towing a loaded trailer behind a lorry as half the width of road up ahead was obstructed by a crash and everyone was using one side of the road. Not much fun. What is it about that road and people always crashing on it? I've encountered loads of smashed-up motors on the A111, especially in the middle of the afternoon and especially at the Cockfosters end!


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