# Bike to Running



## BrumJim (27 Jun 2011)

Thinking, quite seriously now, about running the Birmingham Half Marathon in October.

So, I can ride 50 miles at a reasonable pace (top 20% of the last Sportive that I did), and have been up to 75 miles. I love the challenge of a good hill, and every day I do a 6 mile commute as fast as I can get away with - recently averaged 20.3, but that was a special route - straight and flat main road for the first half. So I'm happy that I'm reasonably fit.

But I don't run. I last ran for a reasonable distance in 1990, and that was 5k. 13 miles and a bit is much longer. Tonight I have just done 2 miles, and feel pretty similar as far as leg muscles go, to a 40 mile ride.

Any tips for converting my cycling fitness to running? I guess I just need to get some miles in those running legs.


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## Broadside (27 Jun 2011)

I'm not a runner but I am fit through cycling. I recently went away on hols for 2 weeks (no bike) so went for a 2 mile run
to get some exercise. Like you my legs didn't feel too bad and I reckon I could have run twice the distant quite easily. However I know I am not conditioned for running and didn't want to injure my cycling legs. 

The day after my legs ached quite a bit and by the second day DOMS had really kicked in and they hurt a lot, it took about 4 days for them to return to normal. So my point is, you may be fit but allow your tendons and muscles time to adjust to running as it will not happen overnight. Push it too quick and you will probably end up injured.

Let us know how you get on, I am tempted to take up running as an addition to cycling so would be interested to hear.


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## heliphil (28 Jun 2011)

it seems that you will have the fitness / stamina already, but you will need to get your legs used to the pounding of the streets - build up gradually - 3 runs a week will be fine - no need to go beyond ~ 9 or 10 miles a two weeks or so before the race and starting out from the 2 miles you have already done

ps - get a decent pair of running shoes


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## BrumJim (28 Jun 2011)

And don't run in cycling shorts. Even if they are the only ones with pockets in.

So, next time will be cycling top, and football shorts. Then down to the shop to buy some running kit!


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## carolonabike (28 Jun 2011)

I did the GNR last September before taking up cycling again at the beginning of this year and I still run a couple of times a week.

I found that cycling hugely improved my aerobic fitness, so I think the danger may be that because you have a good fitness base, you can run further and faster than you would as a running beginner, risking injury; as dmoran says your legs are not yet used to the impact of running. The two activities are very different beasts.

I would suggest taking it easy for a few weeks until your legs catch up with your lungs, run two or three times a week but keep it slow and steady. Start with 2 or 3 mile runs and build up gradually, you have plenty of time. There is no need to be running hm distance until September. I found it gave me confidence knowing I had ran 13 miles but many people run a hm without ever having ran that distance.
I only did it a cuple of times the month before the race and it was hard work  .

I also found there was quite a step up from 10 to 12 miles.

ooh, and yes, definitely don't try running in cycling shorts. Chafing... ouch.


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## Rob3rt (28 Jun 2011)

Get down to a running shop and outfit yourself with a decent pair of running shoes, this is an absolute neccessity imo. I'd also invest in some running socks (they really do help prevent blisters) and some decent running shorts. You will be fine with cycling jerseys, but I personally prefer to run in something a bit looser. For distances over 10km, I personally feel owning the kit is worth the outlay, since a small niggle will soon elevate into a big niggle in long distance events.

The big step for you wont be the actual cardiovascular fitness, you probly have this part of the run in the bag, it will be less developed muscles and ligaments that are your source of concern. Be very wary of going too far even if you feel fine, cycling and running uses different muscles and running puts your ligaments etc under more stress, these improve much slower than your cardiovascular system, so ultimatelly this is the limiting factor. Run short and steady, focus on keeping good form and increase milage gradually, often it is said to increase no more than 10% a week, this is pretty sensible if not a bit arbitrary.

If all you are interested in is completion, then you will be good to go in as little as 2-3 months with consistant moderate runs of increasing length with one long slow run per week, you wont even need to go up to HM distance in training for a respectable completion. I am planning to be marathon completion fit within 4 months from now with a decent middle distance running base and then to do some speed training to get fully fit by next April.

If you are planning to aim for a certain time, then training will need a bit more structure, if you provide a bit more detail (preferably including a 5km or 10km time trial effort time - your local parkrun would be a good place to get a 5km time) myself and a few others here with running experience may be able to provide you with some more ellaborate advice including some pacing guidance, you will also want to be running further than the HM distance on longer runs too.


BTW, If you sign up to parkrun you should recieve a £15 off voucher for sweatshop (I am assuming this still applies since they are still sponsors) which will help you out in buying some nice running shoes. You could also use parkrun as a bit of incentive to get out and run 5km each week.


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## brockers (28 Jun 2011)

It would be interesting to hear whether your running has an effect on your bike fitness.

In my case, I go out for a 1/2 hour run twice a week. That's all I can manage before either my calfs, hips, or cv gubbins pack up. I get back on my bike though and I'm flying. I have a feeling that it's because I'm working at more or less bike threshold (HR between 170 and 180 however gently I run!) levels, which is the best bang-for-your-buck training you can do.


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## jay clock (28 Jun 2011)

I am doing my first Ironman on Sunday, so have a bit of experience in this field. I have been doing triathlons for about 5 years, and the running I assumed I could handle easily based on my cycling fitness. WRONG! I learnt I had to take it easy. I did couch to 5k http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_3/181.shtml and that was excellent. You might be able to accelerate it a bit, but to be honest I have seen loads of people get injuries by winging it....

Agreed, too, get decent shoes and kit, and learn what level of clothing you need in various weathers.


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## VamP (28 Jun 2011)

HM is about the limit of distance that most fit people can run without any training. Whether you'd want to do that is questionable.

As Rob3rt says, what is your goal?

If it's just completion then just get your legs used to running. Once or twice a week, no need to go for mileage, just aim for cca 30 minutes - 1 hour running time each time. Whatever speed feels comfortable. Get plenty of rest. Work on economy of technique, focus on running with low impact, *get good shoes!

*Get a couple of longer runs (cca 2 hrs) in before your race, but not in the last week before. Usual warming up, warming down, stretching, tapering and carbo loading advice, but remember that the HM is quite a short event compared to what you are used to cycling. 2 hours is a respectable time, but if you get serious, you might do it in 1.5 hrs.


If you have a time in mind, you'll need to tailor your training to that, and do a lot more volume.


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## BrumJim (28 Jun 2011)

Three goals:

Run it, and enjoy running it.

Faster than 2 hours. I won't consider running a marathon unless I have a good chance of doing it in less than 4 hours, so that gives me a 2 hour target for the HM.

Raise money for HMSA


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## Rob3rt (28 Jun 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Three goals:
> 
> Run it, and enjoy running it.
> 
> ...



A 2 hour HM runner most likely will not produce a sub 4 hour marathon but it will be a good base to work on. Faster than 2 hours is most likely doable for you though, its just under 9.5 minutes per mile. If you would like some information on structured training I can recommend several texts or provide some basic info (I am not a qualified coach yet but I am a qualified and insured run leader under the UKA with some experience of outlining training programmes and a reasonably experienced runner, although someone like jay clock will probly be a better bet for advice for longer distances). For most detailed advice I would require at least a 5km time, 10km time preferably (used to work out some rough training pace zones).


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## VamP (28 Jun 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> A 2 hour HM runner most likely will not produce a sub 4 hour marathon but it will be a good base to work on. Faster than 2 hours is most likely doable for you though, its just under 9.5 minutes per mile. If you would like some information on structured training I can recommend several texts or provide some basic info (I am not a qualified coach yet but I am a qualified and insured run leader under the UKA and a reasonably experienced runner, although someone like jay clock will probly be a better bet for advice for longer distances). For most detailed advice I would require at least a 5km time, 10km time preferably.



Crikey! Sounds like you know your shoot.

At the risk of muscling in on here, I have a PB at 10k of 46 minutes, and would dearly like to get below 39 minutes (my GF's PB). Any hints and tips? I would be looking for the most impact for the least effort  as most of my training time goes on cycling.

I just know you're going to suggest interval training


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## Rob3rt (28 Jun 2011)

The simple answer is of course intervals (there are many combo's of intervals you could use), they give you the biggest bang for your buck but long slow runs shouldnt be neglected, for 10km training I end up running about 25 mile a week with the longest runs being about 8-9 mile.

I also use a 4 phase training process, base, build, build, peak. Each lasting 4 weeks, 3 weeks of hard work and progression followed by one week recovery. Each phase is composed of a different combination of base runs, long slow runs and intervals (of varying length and structure).

I can only provide basic advice based on reading and what works for me. Hopefully I will get my coaching training paid for soon though 

You will be hard pressed to knock 7 minutes off your PB in a rush though (your gf is very fast, I am at about your pace), could take longer than a year and several iterations knocking a few minutes or less off each time, the faster you get the harder it is to knock time off.


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## VamP (28 Jun 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> You will be hard pressed to knock 7 minutes off your PB in a rush though (your gf is very fast, I am at about your pace), could take longer than a year and several iterations knocking a few minutes or less off each time, the faster you get the harder it is to knock time off.




Yeah, I have already noticed that it's not easy to knock off significant chunks any more. I have been trying to get to her speed for nearly six months now, so I totally appreciate the magnitude of the mountain.

Thanks for your tips, I'll do some reading in that direction.


Most of all I need to decide whether I really want to catch up, or just let her have this one tiny little victory, and beat her in cycling, rock climbing and skiing  

Who said it was not (gentle)manly to pick on girls?


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## Arsen Gere (28 Jun 2011)

BrumJim,
Beware of injuries. The bike is a constrained set of movements, running is not. Most injuries for triathletes appear to be from the run. I had a number of calf injuries when I first started to do tri's. Stretching every day helped prevent injuries.

I read a number of papers on this, some to do with stretching before races and training, some after and the effects, they turn up in google.

What I summarised was you must stick to the same routine whatever it was, don't chop and change. If you stretch post exercise you may get a performance increase of 5 to 7 % (endurance atheletes). I never stretch before, just my preference.

Last year was the first running race I ever did ( a 10k) so I'm no runner.

What I do is sit on the floor each night while watching the tele and do some stretching, I use my watch to time each stretch and go through the same routine. I've been injury free for 6 months now (fingers crossed) and I've done sprints/olympic/duathlons/time trials and the cyclone this season and I am building up to Kielder.

HTH


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## Moodyman (28 Jun 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> *The simple answer is of course intervals (there are many combo's of intervals you could use), they give you the biggest bang for your buck*



Agree, but not any old intervals. Find a nice hill or two of about 80-100 metres

Power up, jog down, power up, jog down, repeat until you feel like death. That'll develop fitness in no time.

Then do the odd longer run to develop endurance.


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## brockers (28 Jun 2011)

^^ And for anyone wanting to get fit quick on a bike, you can apply the same principles to your cycling. 

You can freewheel down though. Jogging with your bicycle would just look silly.


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## Fiona N (28 Jun 2011)

One thing no one's mentioned is running surface. 

The transition to running is much more pleasant and likely to be less injury strewn if you can find some softer and varied surfaces to run on - not mud so much as not concrete and tarmac. It reduces the pounding and trains the proprioception/balance systems as well as strengthening the stability of the knees and ankles. A grassy park, firm single track, forest tracks, whatever you've got to hand, it all helps with the neuro-muscular conversion from cycling on a fixed machine to running where nothings fixed.


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## Herbie (29 Jun 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Thinking, quite seriously now, about running the Birmingham Half Marathon in October.
> 
> So, I can ride 50 miles at a reasonable pace (top 20% of the last Sportive that I did), and have been up to 75 miles. I love the challenge of a good hill, and every day I do a 6 mile commute as fast as I can get away with - recently averaged 20.3, but that was a special route - straight and flat main road for the first half. So I'm happy that I'm reasonably fit.
> 
> ...


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## GrumpyGregry (29 Jun 2011)

Loads of great advice in this thread..... my own 'pearls'

wear decent running shoes and dedicated gear made from technical fabrics
park runs are a great way to mearuee your progess
hydrate like a bandit especially if running for more than 40 mins.

My story.

did a couch to 5km in 10 week course in march
now doing a 5km to 10km course 10 week course which ends in three weeks (though I ran my first competitive 10km a couple of weeks ago; it is where the cycling derived CV fitness, and the ability to tolerate discomfort (tempo running) really paid off)
am running the Barns Green Half Mara in October and start the 10km to 1/2 mara 15 week course in a couple of weeks.

that is the up side.

the downside? the impact on my cycling the club/course long runs on a sunday morning clash with cycling club, the impact from the running leaves my legs in bits and I have had to cut down on cycle commuting as a result, the running it quite time consuming and I can't rearrange my day to allow me to ride to from work and get to the course on time. I tore a calf muscle on uneven ground a week ago (didn't warm up properly - my own fault) and I can neither run nor cycle at the moment though I was stupid enough to do an 11km jog on Sunday. dumbdumbdumb.


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## Glover Fan (29 Jun 2011)

+1 for decent and well fitting running shoes. Doesn't matter how much they cost!

I have a perfectly neutral gait and had some excellent Brooks Ghost 2 trainers that did the job fine, wore em out and decided to buy a pair of Saucony ProGrid Triumph 6's which were touted as "neutral" and felt really comfy.

Within 3 runs I thought I had runners knee and haven't been running for 5 months. Went for a run again in them and the knee pain came back. Thinking my dreams of a triathlon I took a couple more weeks out. Had a bit of a brainwave that maybe it could be the trainers as they have a slight "heel" to them and popped on my old trainers. Did 3 miles and didn't get any pain in my knee whatsoever!

So my advice would be, once you have found a trainer that does the job, stick with it!!! Am going to order a new pair of these Brooks.


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## Glover Fan (29 Jun 2011)

By the way, I heard that runners always have a better "motor" for cycling than people who solely just cycle and it makes perfect sense to me, my average HR whilst running is always at least 160bpm regardless of effort, whereas cycling it can be as low as 120bpm. Combining running with cycling makes climbing hills a doddle!


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## JonnyBlade (29 Jun 2011)

The transition from run to bike is a good one but not the other way around. Different muscle group conditioning that can be detrimental to cycling so beware!!!!

Marathon man to bike


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## BrumJim (30 Jun 2011)

Well, 2 miles on Monday, and bad DOMS on Wednesday. Although that was probably due to a bit of SCR on Tuesday evening. A bit strange, as I've never had DOMS after SCR ever before, and it's not as though I rarely participate, although this one was a particularly tough nut.


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## zoxed (30 Jun 2011)

I second the injury warning, although of course it varies.

I am 46, life long cyclist. I started a very gentle build-up running program (walkk-run-etc) last Autumn. Went great for the first few weeks, but then after the end of the program I think I took too bigger step up in pace (I was getting frustrated, not really feeling tired during the build-up program). Result was a knackered knee (it was OK whilst running, but the pain startedduring the evening). Several weeks of just managing the cycle to work and nothing more than that :-( Knees are still a bit dodgy on the bike.

I guess that running used some different muscles etc and my body did not have time to develop them fast enough to match my existing cycling muscles. If I had started out the running with no fitness I would not have pushed it too much !!

This autumn I will start running on the days *between* (not instead of) my regular cycling, so that they are on my "rest" days. Hopefully there will be less temptation to push it too much at the start !!


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## lulubel (30 Jun 2011)

Moodyman said:


> Agree, but not any old intervals. Find a nice hill or two of about 80-100 metres
> 
> Power up, jog down, power up, jog down, repeat until you feel like death. That'll develop fitness in no time.



Be careful of doing a lot of hill running if you haven't done much before. Running uphill works the calf muscles very hard, and too much too soon will damage the achilles tendon, and that's a very bad injury to have!

Like everything with running, build up gradually.


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## The Jogger (1 Jul 2011)

I have done most of my running on hilly trails, the south downs way, when I was running properly a few years ago. Although I found intervals helped improve speed, hills and distance did it for me. I would try and fit in a lsr 14 - 16 miler once a week. My times really improved.


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## The Jogger (1 Jul 2011)

Yes, with hill running, good calf stretching is essential.


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## BrumJim (5 Jul 2011)

Up to 3 miles last night, but muscles in the lower part of my lower leg complaining like crazy. Not happy. Wish they would put up and shut up.

Taking the advice about not pushing too hard last, though. Lungs and heart were begging to be pushed harder, but legs were on a protest. Listened to my legs.


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## Rob3rt (5 Jul 2011)

Well done  keep at it, you will get there.


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## BrumJim (12 Jul 2011)

3.5 miles last night, finishing at 10:30 and feeling good.

Legs not hurting much at all. Although got cramp in my feet just after I went to bed.


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## chris-s (13 Jul 2011)

My tip, good compressions socks for recovery. I've also found arnica gel massaged into the calfs seems to help recovery, but not sure if thats for real or just my imagination.

I took up triathlon this year with no recent swimming or running abilities. Found I can pass people swimming and cycling, but when it comes to running it all goes backwards as those with real running ability fly past. I dropped 30 places in the run stage of my last event.

Chris


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## fossyant (13 Jul 2011)

Speaking from experience.  

Build the miles up slowly. Add 10% each time. 

Unlike what I did many years back. Race fit, end of season - oh I'll go for a run. Must have done 5 plus miles at a fast pace.

Couldn't walk the next day. Agony. Went for a few physio sessions as I'd knackered my hamstring anchor point on my left knee. Buggered up the start of a racing season.


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## GrumpyGregry (13 Jul 2011)

and never ever forget, the adaptations, i.e. the getting fitter bit, only happen when you are resting. Stimulus + rest + stimulus + rest = fitness. Stimulus + stimulus + stimulus + stimulus = tiredness.

my current rest is semi-enforced. Post a nice little rural off road 10km race on Sunday I got bitten by some insect or other whilst doing my post run stretches. I now have a stupidly red and swollen calf, feel godawful and am on antibiotics. Cellulitis. I knew all that post run stretching was not good for a fellow.


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## lulubel (13 Jul 2011)

chris-s said:


> I've also found arnica gel massaged into the calfs seems to help recovery, but not sure if thats for real or just my imagination.



For real. Arnica helps to prevent bruising. I don't know exactly how it works, but I would guess it's either something to do with helping the tiny tears in the muscles to repair, or clearing the old blood from the tears out of the muscle.


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## BrumJim (17 Jul 2011)

Parkrun was good. Except that it was pouring down. Until we started, when it got worse. And continued to do so throughout the run. And got a puncture, so had to walk home.


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## Rob3rt (17 Jul 2011)

Man up sissy boy, I ran 10 miles in non stop rain today, soaked through and enjoyed every minute of it  Only kidding, I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.


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## gregsid (18 Jul 2011)

Just started to do running. Was kindly directed here by BrumJim (Thank you). Brilliant advice here from you all. GREAT!


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## BrumJim (18 Jul 2011)

Any aim in particular? Mid-life crisis?


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## gregsid (18 Jul 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Any aim in particular? Mid-life crisis?


I was surprised by how much I enjoyed cycling after my motorcycle accident and the feeling (or buzz) I got after pushing myself, I felt the urge to run too!

I guess it's just a peculiar set of circumstances as I would NEVER have dreamt of running whilst I was in my motorcycling days. I can feel myself getting leaner, firmer and MUCH HAPPIER from just the cycling alone.


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## BrumJim (18 Jul 2011)

Right - signed up for the event now. No going back. Well, obviously will be when I get to the half-way point...


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## VamP (20 Jul 2011)

I'm glad I read this thread, it has inspired me to do some running while on holiday last week.

After focusing on cycling pretty much exclusively these last three months, I found on just a gentle jog out with my GF (testing her finger shoes  ) that downhill runs caused some kinda pressure/cramping where my quad and hamstring meet on my inside legs about 6 inches back from my knee. Spooked the living daylights out of me, and I swore there and then to cross train religiously.


Anyway went on my 10k practice route (no downhill sections) day before yesterday, and fingers crossed no recurrence of the problem. Went well, gettting 44.30 minutes, improving my PB on this route by 1.30 minutes. So the cycling fitness does translate, but at a cost.

All interesting stuff.

...and Thanks Brum Jim for bringing my attention back to this lovely sport. Now signed up for a 10k with the GF in October. Time to get serious about training!  

Annoyingly, she ran a 5k race on Sunday, came fourth at 22 minutes. Having done no training in over a year!


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## BrumJim (20 Jul 2011)

4.5 miles on Monday. Aiming to reach 6 by the end of week 31, and then it'll be a recovery week.

6 miles is a good target, as work is 6 miles from home, so I can start adding my commute to my running schedule.


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## Sir Humphrey Appleby (25 Jul 2011)

When I was 15 and about 14 stone I ran 1500m and 800m well into the top third of my year, only the football team were ahead and the only person to lap me went on to train with Stoke City's first team. All off the back of cycling 40-50 miles three times a week. Don't know how that would compare to running a half marathon though


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## brockers (26 Jul 2011)

I really like running occasionally(pity I can't go very far without something twingeing though). Makes me feel as if I'm about seven years old again, whereas riding a bike makes me feel like a relatively ancient twelve!


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## al-fresco (27 Jul 2011)

lulubel said:


> For real. Arnica helps to prevent bruising. I don't know exactly how it works, but I would guess it's either something to do with helping the tiny tears in the muscles to repair, or clearing the old blood from the tears out of the muscle.



I'm not a big fan of homeopathic remedies in general but I have a sneaking regard for arnica - my wife used it on a cat after he'd had some teeth removed and his recovery was amazing. Since then my wife has always pointed out (somewhat smugly in my opinion) that cats are not subject to the placebo effect.


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## Fiona N (27 Jul 2011)

al-fresco said:


> .... Since then my wife has always pointed out (somewhat smugly in my opinion) that cats are not subject to the placebo effect.



Well actually they are  Homopathy works on animals in the same way as it does in people - being tended to makes you get better a bit quicker and if you get special attention that's even better. Humans are animals after all


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## Becs (28 Jul 2011)

The placebo effect works on the owners too! Arnica is a herbal remedy not a homeopathic one. Homeopathy is a load of cr*p with no science behind it, whereas some herbal remedies such as arnica and st johns wort do actually work with known mechanisms of action.


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## BrumJim (28 Jul 2011)

5.7 miles last night. Legs still work well this morning.
Parkrun going OK too - beat my PB last week. By 23 seconds!!


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## Rob3rt (28 Jul 2011)

Hey BrumJim, you going well, I think you will complete pretty easy. I ran my 1st half marathon distance last sunday (unofficial route, clocked using two garmins, Garmin Edge 500 stuffed in my shorts pocket and a Forerunner 205).

I just got put onto claiming my running handicap (well I got told about it ages ago by someone at parkrun, but didnt act until now as I get told about lots of things by the UKA, parkrun and local clubs so half of it I forget), if you want to log training miles per week and have your parkrun times (and other events) linked to your profile and be provided with race listings you may wish to enter you can get your handicap and it will tell you how fast you need to run over certain distances in order to improve it.

http://www.runbritainrankings.com/

It may or may not be your kind of thing, but its free and all you need to do is register and tell it your parkrun barcode number (minus the A at the start) for automatic updates to profile based on the parkrun system. For other events you need to tell it your time and event and using your details it will find you and link the data to your profile.


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## BrumJim (31 Jul 2011)

OK, put my age-graded score of 57.27% from Parkrun into the web site here: Running for Fitness

Looks like I'll complete the 1/2 marathon in 1hr 45, as long as I keep training. Which looks good. And looks even better if you extend that to a full marathon (if I ever do one), making 3 hrs 45 possible. Wouldn't do one if I thought I would take longer than 4 hours.

However, it is based on a split of 8mins 15 odd seconds for the 1/2 marathon. Last week I ran 5.5 miles with 9 mins 10 secs splits, which is quite a lot slower, and I thought I was pushing quite hard. Either I'm not running anything like as fast as I can do, or the web site is spreading lies and deceit.

Can I trust it?


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## Rob3rt (1 Aug 2011)

BrumJim said:


> OK, put my age-graded score of 57.27% from Parkrun into the web site here: Running for Fitness
> 
> Looks like I'll complete the 1/2 marathon in 1hr 45, as long as I keep training. Which looks good. And looks even better if you extend that to a full marathon (if I ever do one), making 3 hrs 45 possible. Wouldn't do one if I thought I would take longer than 4 hours.
> 
> ...



I wouldnt trust it.

I will use myself as an example, I run 5km in 0:21:37, 10km in 0:46:51 and it took me, 2:12:xx and 1:58:xx to complete a half marathon distance both times I have done so (in training - not a race). Although both times were "long slow runs" not race efforts so probly set off too slow and I blew up a bit in the last 2 mile both times and havent done any speed training for months 

These equations etc work pretty well for some people, so maybe its just me that is an exception!


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## colinr (1 Aug 2011)

There's a disclaimer somewhere on that site that explains the times are based on putting in the appropriate training, they're not instant translations from one distance to another.


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## Pottsy (1 Aug 2011)

Don't trust it as the others have said. 

I can run sub 1:39 half marathon but a 3:45 marathon is probably beyond my current fitness level. As Rob3rt says, those ratios between run times only apply if you've done all the training for the appropriate distance i.e. for a marathon you're doing a sufficient amount of long runs, or for a shorter distances, the appropriate amount of speed or interval or tempo style training. They won't work if you're just stepping up to a longer run for the first time.

Also, just as a point to make, if you've not run a marathon before, it's a lot, lot, lot tougher than a half marathon, I'd say about 5 to 10 times harder for most people.


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## VamP (1 Aug 2011)

Pottsy said:


> Also, just as a point to make, if you've not run a marathon before, it's a lot, lot, lot tougher than a half marathon, I'd say about 5 to 10 times harder for most people.



+1

Absolutely. I would agree to run a half at the drop of a hat, and not worry about training particularly, but I would think long and very very hard about agreeing to do another marathon. And then train religiously.

The pain of the last 5k has to be experienced to be believed.


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## BrumJim (6 Aug 2011)

1 min 10 seconds quicker this week on Parkrun. But different park with less hills, so was probably a quicker course.

Got to push distance up to 6 miles this week or next.


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## Ellis456 (6 Aug 2011)

What lower muscles do you work different from cycling?, anyone know?. is it worth also dedicating a day for jogging or just stick to cycling?.


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## captainhastings (6 Aug 2011)

I injured my self after an ultra and now come to a stop after 4-5 miles yet I can cycle 30 odd miles and any hills with out the slightest twinge which just goes to show what a completely different set of muscles are in use.
The advantage running has given me is a big weight lose which now makes cycling so much easier especially hills and of course a big improvement in general fitness apart from a screwed leg .


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## Willo (7 Aug 2011)

The physio who helped me recover from a serious achilles injury a couple of years back recommended Arnica. He told me he'd been sceptical initially but has noted improved recovery when it's applied. I now use a herbal rub that contains Arnica called Nature's Kiss whenever I get some aches in my lower legs (you can get it in running shops or online at places like Wiggle). 

Do build up the running slowly and allow recovery time. And sorry if stating the obvious, but trainers suited to your specific gait are important too. I find mixing running with cycling has been great for me. Problem is that since I got into cycling, the running increasingly feels like a chore im comparison!


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## marooned (7 Aug 2011)

I don't know what different muscles you use, but biometrically, it is a totally different movement. Also you may not be used to impact sports. If you want to be runner, you will need to spend time running (may sound obvious). Although cycling gives you a cardio workout, you need to train your body to run. 



Ellis456 said:


> What lower muscles do you work different from cycling?, anyone know?. is it worth also dedicating a day for jogging or just stick to cycling?.


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## BrumJim (11 Aug 2011)

6 miles on Monday, but bad pain in the base of a foot, led to hobbling around that evening.
Felt a lot better in the morning, but still can feel it today, so no more running until Saturday morning at the earliest.
Then hope to commute home next week by running (6.3 miles)


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## colinr (15 Aug 2011)

I ran my first half marathon yesterday and can confirm that if you don't train properly, that race predictor isn't at all accurate!

Also, I need to work out a way of not eating anything for a long time before running that far, was very uncomfortable by the end.


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## Rob3rt (15 Aug 2011)

colinr said:


> I ran my first half marathon yesterday and can confirm that if you don't train properly, that race predictor isn't at all accurate!
> 
> Also, I need to work out a way of not eating anything for a long time before running that far, was very uncomfortable by the end.



What did you eat prior to the run?


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## colinr (15 Aug 2011)

Ate chilli and pasta about 7pm the night before, then nothing until a gel bar 5km into the run (would've been about 10.30). I'm thinking big lunch the day before and very light evening meal next time. Don't think I needed the gel either, water should be enough.


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## GrumpyGregry (15 Aug 2011)

My subjective, non-scientific, personal experience is that regular running (5km twice a week, 10km once) improves your climbing ability on a bike.

Half marathon in October then I'm going to find a 5km - 50km - 10km or similar dualthlon to have a crack at. Crack will be the operative word, I'm sure I will, on the second run. The 'mental' side of running is something I need to find an answer to.


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## BrumJim (15 Aug 2011)

Since I have started running my 6 mile commuting speed has improved. Last year - 19.7 mile/h maximum with the wind behind me. Last Friday - 20.7 mile/h with no wind at all.


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## Rob3rt (15 Aug 2011)

colinr said:


> Ate chilli and pasta about 7pm the night before, then nothing until a gel bar 5km into the run (would've been about 10.30). I'm thinking big lunch the day before and very light evening meal next time. Don't think I needed the gel either, water should be enough.



I dont see why this should be a problem, might be an isolated incident. I would eat a big pasta based meal the night before, then some porridge the morning of the race. Then gobble a jelly baby every 2-3 miles. I usually feel a bit tired toward the end of a long run like a half, but other than that, fine.


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## fimm (15 Aug 2011)

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
is quite good for predicting run times from other run times (with the usual disclaimer of "if you've done the training") - if I put my 1:42 half time in it predicts a 45 minute 10k, my actual 10k pb of 48 minutes predicts a 1:47 half (I would say the half times are a better indication of my running, it is a long time since I did a standalone 10k). It predicts a 3:35 marathon from my half time, which is interesting. 

Dualthons tend to be 10k - 40k - 5k, or 5k - 20k - 5k in my experience.

I tend to follow my boyfriend's habit of a bit meal the night before a race, then something very light like white rolls with jam/honey or croissants/pain au chocolate for breakfast, then 2 - 3 gels during the race for a half. If there's a bit of a placebo/mental aspect to using gels, I don't quite see the issue if it gets me round?


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## Rob3rt (15 Aug 2011)

fimm said:


> http://www.mcmillanr...gcalculator.htm
> is quite good for predicting run times from other run times (with the usual disclaimer of "if you've done the training") - if I put my 1:42 half time in it predicts a 45 minute 10k, my actual 10k pb of 48 minutes predicts a 1:47 half (I would say the half times are a better indication of my running, it is a long time since I did a standalone 10k). It predicts a 3:35 marathon from my half time, which is interesting.
> 
> Dualthons tend to be 10k - 40k - 5k, or 5k - 20k - 5k in my experience.
> ...



I agree in a race, but in training, not for me. Using gels too freely in training may create over reliance. I tend to carry something just in case but wont use it unless I have to, in a race, I wouldnt hesitate to pop a few gels down me.


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## colinr (15 Aug 2011)

> If there's a bit of a placebo/mental aspect to using gels, I don't quite see the issue if it gets me round?


 
That's absolutely fine, however I'm wondering if they're what caused my discomfort. Some running forums reckon it can be IBS but I don't believe that as it's only affected me a couple of times and I usually run within 5-6 hours of eating, had a 15 hour gap on this one.

Anyway, jelly babies are on the menu for next time (if there is a next time)

 


> My subjective, non-scientific, personal experience is that regular running (5km twice a week, 10km once) improves your climbing ability on a bike.


 
I'm inclined (ho ho) to agree. My theory is that running is a constant effort with suffering to match, so you get used to putting yourself through the inconvenience of pain. It's too easy to slow down on a bike when it gets harder, running doesn't really let you.


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## Rob3rt (15 Aug 2011)

Gel's can upset your stomach, you need to find ones that work for you. You can practice their use in training and see which ones work for you, but it might breed reliance on gels because to test them, you have to take them.

When I am running hard, eating something like a jelly baby makes me feel sick, I took one from the marshall at the Greater Manchester 10km and nearly threw up as I was approaching the finish. But usually on a half I'd be running under my threshold confortably enough to get one down me every couple of mile, too often and i feel sick. I tried every mile and about 8 miles in I felt sick.


On a bike you can freewheel every now and then, running you cant stop momentarily without coming to a halt, but you will slow down, in fact your brain will try to slow you down much more in advance of fatigue as a protection mechanism to avoid damage by making you feel uncomfortable when in fact you are safe for a good long while yet, you can overcome it and run through the pain and it will eventually subside (part of the advantage of hard interval efforts, they dont just work for the body, but also the mind) until real fatigue hits and the wheels start coming off


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## Pottsy (15 Aug 2011)

Seems odd to suffer with your stomach from what you've said - maybe some nervousness on the day?

For me, I will have a big pasta dinner the night before, regular breakfast (cereal and toast) in the morning but at least 3 hours before race time and a coffee to wake me up and get things, erm, moving. 

For a half marathon or less I don't need to eat at all during the run, maybe a sip or two of energy drink to help me in the last 2 or 3 miles. For a 10k I probably wouldn't even drink water unless it's very hot. 

It's good to practice whatever the routine you find works for you in your training. If it's a big run, same meals, get up the same time, run at the same time of day etc. Then there shouldn't be any surprises.


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## fimm (15 Aug 2011)

If I'm planning on using gels in a race, I'll make sure I use some in training running up to that race, so I know I won't have issues. I don't routinely use gels in training, though. I also agree that you can take too many gels/take them too close together - I've had stomach pain in the past from doing this. I think I only take 2 or 3 over a half marathon - I wouldn't bother with any nutrition at all, nor even water, for a 10k.


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## Rob3rt (15 Aug 2011)

A 10km race is run at just under threshold, anything going in is likely to come back out in my experience. I usually feel pretty rough at the end of a 5km or 10km. Whereas at the end of a half, I feel fatigued but not like death. Although it should be noted, the half's I have ran were just for the sake of it, not in a race, just long training runs. So maybe when im going race effort I'll be close to puking at the end 

I dont touch anything on a 10km, only took the jelly baby because it was been thrust out at me as I ran past and my impulse was to take it and eat it, lol.


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## VamP (15 Aug 2011)

colinr said:


> That's absolutely fine, however I'm wondering if they're what caused my *discomfort*.




Can you describe the symptoms?


I am a little horrified that you are not eating any breakfast on race day. I would get up at three in the morning if I had to, to make sure breakfast takes place. As Rob3rt says, porridge rules. You need to make sure that there are about three hours between breakfast and race start.

Gels can upset your stomach, so maybe that was the problem? It's hard to tell from your despription of the symptoms.

Personally, I would not eat anything on a half, and just take some water, and swill around my mouth and spit out again. I find any kind of a volume of anything in my stomach causes problems while running. Cycling I could eat a horse and still keep going


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## lulubel (15 Aug 2011)

Yes, not eating breakfast before a long run/race is a bad idea.

Everyone is different, so what you need to eat before, during and after a long race for recovery will be very much personal to you. What most runners do when training for a half or longer is use their long training runs to try out different fuelling methods, so they already know what works by the time they get to the race.

Like VamP, I can run a half without taking on energy during the race, as long as I've had a decent breakfast. I do need water, however, but only in small sips or it starts to make me feel queasy.


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## colinr (15 Aug 2011)

I've never had an issue with skipping breakfast, even with fairly intense exercise. I'm prone to cramps and stitches so tend to do better with a big meal the night before to carry me through.

As for symptoms, I was being polite, it was more or less runner's diarrhoea but without the 'results'. On reflection I think it was a) the gels - they've had the same effect before and b) this was the first run I've done that was significantly longer than an hour. So more practise and gels only for the bike.


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## BrumJim (15 Aug 2011)

One of the TdF riders was suffering stomach cramps from Energy Gels, IIRC, so that could be the cause.

Interesting, as I ride on Jelly Babies, and was planning on running on the same, even though running short pockets are smaller than cycling jersey ones. Could be something to consider.


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## lulubel (16 Aug 2011)

colinr said:


> I've never had an issue with skipping breakfast, even with fairly intense exercise.



Long runs are about duration rather than intensity. I'd certainly agree with leaving a long gap between food and a fast run.

But a lot of people do have problems with gels, so that would be the first thing to look at if your stomach's getting upset. The only thing is, if you struggle with taking on any form of energy during your runs, you may have to start eating breakfast just to have enough fuel in your body to get you through the run.


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## VamP (16 Aug 2011)

colinr said:


> I've never had an issue with skipping breakfast, even with fairly intense exercise. I'm prone to cramps and stitches so tend to do better with a big meal the night before to carry me through.
> 
> As for symptoms, I was being polite, it was more or less runner's diarrhoea but without the 'results'. On reflection I think it was a) the gels - they've had the same effect before and b) this was the first run I've done that was significantly longer than an hour. So more practise and gels only for the bike.




I'd agree with that assesment.

As for stitches and cramps, I too am a sufferer, and for a 10k or 5k I will make sure the gap between breakfast and race is longer than 3 hours, 5 hours would be ideal for me. That's because in these races, you're running flat out from the go. In a half (or full) the first 20 minutes is easing in, and even thereafter I rarely approach threshold speeds.

I do think that 15 hours is too long though, but if you have experimented and that is the only way you can prevent stitches, then you have to go with it.

Slamming in a gel just as you get up to speed on an empty stomach is asking for trouble though. How about a gel or energy drink an hour before the start - that might be worth experimenting with. Preferably in training rather then on race day.

As stated above everyone is different in this regard, my GF can eat a square meal 10 minutes before setting off on a 10k run, and still leave me trailing. Grrr, I hate her! Well obvioously I love her, but sometimes she could be a little less superhuman


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## VamP (16 Aug 2011)

BrumJim said:


> One of the TdF riders was suffering stomach cramps from Energy Gels, IIRC, so that could be the cause.
> 
> Interesting, as I ride on Jelly Babies, and was planning on running on the same, even though running short pockets are smaller than cycling jersey ones. Could be something to consider.




Experiment in training. 

I couldn't eat jelly babies while running, but others can.

The only time I take on food in a running race is in the full marathon, and that would be half a banana about 30-35km in. And I'll slow right down, or even walk as I eat it. And stay slow for another 5-10 minutes*


*That should be in past tense, as I resolved some time ago never to run another marathon again


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## colinr (16 Aug 2011)

It's like getting bike fit right though, make a small adjustment then spend an hour finding out if it worked or not


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## VamP (16 Aug 2011)

colinr said:


> It's like getting bike fit right though, make a small adjustment then spend an hour finding out if it worked or not



Tru dat.


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## Arsen Gere (16 Aug 2011)

I used to get cramps in triathlons going from the bike to the run. Mostly due to nerves from the start. I tried using 1/2 tea spoon of bicarb in water before I left the house after breakfast and this helped me.

I heard some years ago that Steve Cram used to take it before racing to help prevent lactic acid build up.


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## The Jogger (16 Aug 2011)

BrumJim said:


> One of the TdF riders was suffering stomach cramps from Energy Gels, IIRC, so that could be the cause.
> 
> Interesting, as I ride on Jelly Babies, and was planning on running on the same, even though running short pockets are smaller than cycling jersey ones. Could be something to consider.




If I need to bring fuel with me on a run, either jelly babies or something else to eat, I wear a cycling shirt and make use of the back pockets. Phone, jelly babies, does an excellent job and of course breathable.


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## VamP (18 Aug 2011)

Right, here's a new tangent!

GF and I have signed up for a duathlon in October. We both cycle, and we both run, so all seems good on that front. Nevertheless duathlons bring their own sets of challenges - namely transitions and mutually incompatible kits.

Any experienced dua- or tri- peeps wanna throw in their experience?


My current thinking is to stick to the knitting, throw flat pedals on the bike, and do the whole thing in running shoes. Clothes-wise, I'll see what running in my bib shorts feels like, and if that's pants (get it?  ), I'll cycle in running shorts. 

Am thinking no food, and just an energy drink on the bike.


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## Rob3rt (18 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> Right, here's a new tangent!
> 
> GF and I have signed up for a duathlon in October. We both cycle, and we both run, so all seems good on that front. Nevertheless duathlons bring their own sets of challenges - namely transitions and mutually incompatible kits.
> 
> ...



I've never done a duathlon or tri yet but am taking it on next year, and am about to join a tri club for next season, so I have done a fair bit of reading. From my reading and a bit of a play on the turbo I would say:

Buy a tri suit, they have a thin ass pad that will make bike more comfy but will not chafe when you run. 

Learn to set up your shoes on the bike and then put your feet into them whilst riding, basically shoes are already attached to pedals and you stand on the shoe to cycle off then as moving you put your feet in and tighten velcro.

Also either learn to undo all three straps on cycling shoes or buy tri shoes and learn to undo those whilst moving.

As you approach transition, freewheel, with one foot up, rip velco open, hold shoe, pull foot out then put it on top of the shoe, then pedal to keep momentum and then do the other foot. 

Buy those elastic laces with a toggle for tightening for your running shoes, in transition jump off, rack the bike and pull the shoes on and go go go!


Lots of youtube video's of how to transition.


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## fimm (18 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> Right, here's a new tangent!
> 
> GF and I have signed up for a duathlon in October. We both cycle, and we both run, so all seems good on that front. Nevertheless duathlons bring their own sets of challenges - namely transitions and mutually incompatible kits.
> 
> ...




I've done about a dozen duathlons and triathlons in the past 4 years, and so far I haven't bothered to learn the fast transition process that Rob3ert describes - I reckoned that I was slow enough that the extra minute or so saved by being really slick in transition wasn't worth the time spent learning how to do it. And it you try in a race without practicing first, you _will_ come a cropper, and probably waste more time than you would just stopping and changing your shoes. Anyway you do need tri-specific bike shoes to do this, and there's no point investing in those if you've got perfectly good cycling shoes untill you decide you're really serious. 

I do have tri-specific shoes, and speed laces in my trainers (those would be a relatively cheap thing to get) and I'm beginning to think that I really ought to learn the fast transition thing!

I would expect that most people would change their shoes for the bike in a duathlon. Cycling in trainers tends to say "newbie". It is your choice, though! How long is the one you've entered?

I did my first triathlons in a swimming costume, putting cycle shorts on after the swim and found that running 5km in cycling shorts was fine. I never bother to change my shorts if I'm running off the bike*. So I think you'll be fine wearing cycling shorts - but you are right to try it first! (These days I have trisuits).

*You should do some 'brick' sessions - ie cycle and then go for a run immediately afterwards. It is very useful to find out how weird your legs feel running off the bike. I don't recall doing any run to bike bricks when I was doing duathlon training.


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## Rob3rt (18 Aug 2011)

I imagine learning to transition properly is quite fun, because it adds a 4th discipline


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## VamP (18 Aug 2011)

I'm thinking running shoes on bike in this one, mainly because I don't really have the time to practice transitions, don't really know if duathlons are going to be my thing, so don't want to particularly invest in new kit, and am not concerned if others consider me a newbie. Especially if I can get a decent placing  . There's nothing I like better than beating peeps on TT bikes in time trials, with my road bike, and shoe straps flapping in the wind.  

The race we're doing is Sandy Balls, 5.5km run, 20 km bike, 5.5km run. The bike piece is relatively short, and I can't see trainers on bike costing me more in time than the time I'll save in transition.

If I catch the bug then I'll go all the way  

GF has flatly refused to spend any money on kit specifically for this race, saying she'll do the whole thing in her boarding shorts  and on flat pedals (no clips) off her commute hybrid. She'll probs still pannel me. 


Yeah, brick sessions. Agreed. I'm finding running and cycling in same day tough, never mind straight on top of each other.


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## Rob3rt (18 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> I'm thinking running shoes on bike in this one, mainly because I don't really have the time to practice transitions, don't really know if duathlons are going to be my thing, so don't want to particularly invest in new kit, and am not concerned if others consider me a newbie. Especially if I can get a decent placing  . There's nothing I like better than beating peeps on TT bikes in time trials, with my road bike, and shoe straps flapping in the wind.
> 
> The race we're doing is Sandy Balls, 5.5km run, 20 km bike, 5.5km run. The bike piece is relatively short, and I can't see trainers on bike costing me more in time than the time I'll save in transition.
> 
> ...



Try using some straps like re-strap maybe? They are easy to get in and out of, work well with running shoes (I find proper straps and clips a bit awkward in bigger trainers with laces) and are reasonably secure. I use them on my fixed because I like that bike to be a bit casual.


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## fimm (18 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> I'm thinking running shoes on bike in this one, mainly because I don't really have the time to practice transitions, don't really know if duathlons are going to be my thing, so don't want to particularly invest in new kit, and am not concerned if others consider me a newbie. Especially if I can get a decent placing  . There's nothing I like better than beating peeps on TT bikes in time trials, with my road bike, and shoe straps flapping in the wind.
> 
> The race we're doing is Sandy Balls, 5.5km run, 20 km bike, 5.5km run. The bike piece is relatively short, and I can't see trainers on bike costing me more in time than the time I'll save in transition.
> 
> ...



All that sounds reasonable to me. After posting earlier I went out for a lunchtime run and while I was out remembered a clubmate who is a strong swimmer and runner but new to cycling - she cycles in her trainers and is pretty fast over the whole race. 

(I remember once passing a plumpish bloke on a TT bike _going downhill_. I did think "there's no way I should be able to pass you..." I can't remember if that was the year I was on my MTB (in trainers) or after I got the road bike)

Another tip is to walk transition once you've racked your bike. Go to where you'll come in off the run, look for where your bike is (how many racks to the left/right? How many supports from the end? Any landmarks? (NOT other bikes as they may or may not be there when you get there!) and know what route you are going to take to get to it. Same with the Bike In point - this is harder as at most all you have to find is a pair of trainers, and in your case it will just be your racking spot - know where you have to go and how you're going to get there. 

Edited to add that for those distances I would go with just the energy drink on the bike and nothing else.


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## Arsen Gere (18 Aug 2011)

+1 for the walk round transition. There is nothing better for picking out newbies than a lost bike.

+1 for the energy drink only, its enough.

There are loads of people who get the bike off the rack, run to the mount point jump on and spend the next 100 yards fiddling with their shoes.

Make sure you remember to pick up the helmet first and the bike last on the way out and take the helmet off last on the way back after racking your bike. You don't want a penalty for mixing things up.

If you get the chance, go and watch a tri and you'll see all the mistakes people make. You get disoriented when you come out of the water and forget all kinds of stuff, like how to walk.

I use elastic laces in all my trainers now, I just tie them in a knot and curt the ends off. It drives me mad if I have normal laces flapping when I'm running. Who wants to losen their laces when they take their shoes off!


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## VamP (19 Aug 2011)

Look at all the multisporters coming out of the woodwork  


Thanks for the feedback, it more or less supports the assumptions I had made, so that's a relief.


I read on an American website that people mark their racking spot with a distinctive towel. Is that something that is allowed in UK events also?


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## Pottsy (19 Aug 2011)

My ex did a beginners tri a few years ago in Richmond Park with the swim in a local hotel leisure complex. She had no problem finding her bike after the swim as it was the only one left after she'd finished blow-drying her hair





I'm not suggesting this a s a good racing tactic though VamP.


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## VamP (19 Aug 2011)

Pottsy said:


> My ex did a beginners tri a few years ago in Richmond Park with the swim in a local hotel leisure complex. She had no problem finding her bike after the swim as it was the only one left after she'd finished blow-drying her hair
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 

I think I agree with you. Especially as there's no swimming in my event, and I got no hair


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## fimm (19 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> I read on an American website that people mark their racking spot with a distinctive towel. Is that something that is allowed in UK events also?



It is common to have a towel at your bike for after you've been swimming - I don't know if you'd get away with it for a duathlon though...

If you're looking for a UK based triathlon site/forum, I can recommend http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/


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## Rob3rt (19 Aug 2011)

fimm said:


> It is common to have a towel at your bike for after you've been swimming - I don't know if you'd get away with it for a duathlon though...
> 
> If you're looking for a UK based triathlon site/forum, I can recommend http://www.tritalk.co.uk/forums/



I signed up on there yesterday, will be using it more regular after my tight deadline is over on monday and I can relax and browse around and get to know the forum a bit. Hoping to get told straight if I'm absolutelly mental for considering signing up for IMUK 70.3 next june when it takes place 3 weeks after my 1st marathon and I also cannot swim well, so would have to learn and train hard over winter in the pool  I think I may be nuts but I am seriously considering it.


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## JonnyBlade (19 Aug 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Thinking, quite seriously now, about running the Birmingham Half Marathon in October.
> 
> So, I can ride 50 miles at a reasonable pace (top 20% of the last Sportive that I did), and have been up to 75 miles. I love the challenge of a good hill, and every day I do a 6 mile commute as fast as I can get away with - recently averaged 20.3, but that was a special route - straight and flat main road for the first half. So I'm happy that I'm reasonably fit.
> 
> ...



Take it slowly. You might think so but runners use very different muscle groups and whilst runners adapt well to cycles, it's not always the case the other way around. 
The most striking difference is the impact from running on knees, back, shoulders etc
It's something I would work towards quite gradually


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## Arsen Gere (19 Aug 2011)

@Rob3rt you might want to look at the Cleveland Steelman in July? and give yourself time to recover from the marathon. I find big races of any kind take about 2-3 weeks to get any speed back in my legs and then its a week or two to after that to get really moving again. Sprints I can do a week a part and a Sprint to Oly is ok but an Oly takes me a week or more to fully recover. 

Pack things tightly together and you will become more subject to injury.

Running is a pig for injuries its not like the bike where you have constrained movements.


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## Rob3rt (19 Aug 2011)

Arsen Gere said:


> @Rob3rt you might want to look at the Cleveland Steelman in July? and give yourself time to recover from the marathon. I find big races of any kind take about 2-3 weeks to get any speed back in my legs and then its a week or two to after that to get really moving again. Sprints I can do a week a part and a Sprint to Oly is ok but an Oly takes me a week or more to fully recover.
> 
> Pack things tightly together and you will become more subject to injury.
> 
> Running is a pig for injuries its not like the bike where you have constrained movements.



Yup, I'm well aware of the issues, but it is very tempting to risk it (although my rage level would be very high if I got a DNF having spent £210 on entry). That other event is interesting, but call this shallow if you like, I would prefer to complete a branded IM event. Although I suppose I could do that cleveland event this year and maye the official 70.3 or even full IM the year after.

BTW, I'm a more experienced runner than I am cyclist, I run a lot more than I do cycle  Cycling would be my 2nd sport.


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## JonnyBlade (19 Aug 2011)

Arsen Gere said:


> Running is a pig for injuries its not like the bike where you have constrained movements.




But that's dependant upon your style of training, the type of shoes you wear, how often you train, pre and post run dietary intake 

Many have integrated both sports excellently but they really are strange bed fellows


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## VamP (19 Aug 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> Yup, I'm well aware of the issues, but it is very tempting to risk it (although my rage level would be very high if I got a DNF having spent £210 on entry). That other event is interesting, but call this shallow if you like, I would prefer to complete a branded IM event. Although I suppose I could do that cleveland event this year and maye the official 70.3 or even full IM the year after.
> 
> BTW, I'm a more experienced runner than I am cyclist, I run a lot more than I do cycle  Cycling would be my 2nd sport.




That looks like a tough event.

Personally I find the marathon distance a killer, so my biggest concern would the recovery between your first marathon, and the 70.3. What about doing a marathon later this year, or earlier next, to gauge how it affects you and your recovery speed?

Good luck learning to swim


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## Rob3rt (19 Aug 2011)

VamP said:


> That looks like a tough event.
> 
> Personally I find the marathon distance a killer, so my biggest concern would the recovery between your first marathon, and the 70.3. What about doing a marathon later this year, or earlier next, to gauge how it affects you and your recovery speed?
> 
> Good luck learning to swim



Im already signed up for Greater Manchester Marathon and have a place, so this event it set in stone now. Unless you mean trying another this year? I'm hesitant to do this even though I think I would make the distance with 3 months training, because if I overdo it and end up not being able to to do either of my targets for next year due to injury that would be devastating. I need arrive at the marathon in good shape. Actually this was one of my drivers for doing some duathlon and tri training, to get training in, but to reduce injury risk by shifting some of the load to bike and swim training.


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## VamP (20 Aug 2011)

Rob3rt said:


> Im already signed up for Greater Manchester Marathon and have a place, so this event it set in stone now. Unless you mean trying another this year? I'm hesitant to do this even though I think I would make the distance with 3 months training, because if I overdo it and end up not being able to to do either of my targets for next year due to injury that would be devastating. I need arrive at the marathon in good shape. Actually this was one of my drivers for doing some duathlon and tri training, to get training in, but to reduce injury risk by shifting some of the load to bike and swim training.



Yeah that's what I meant, squeeze another marathon in ahead of the Greater Manchester.

Not even an official one, just run the marathon distance in training, and gauge your recovery from that. That gives you opt out if anything feels wrong.

Whatever you decide, good luck with it, worthy goals.


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## Ian 74 (20 Aug 2011)

My favorite 1/2 Ironman thingy is ," A Day in the Lakes", bloody good day out, swim in ulswater we had 2ft waves this year and last year it was so warm you could do it without wet suits. Cycle over Kirkstone and shap, then finish it of with a cross country/ a bit of felly half marathon. Magic. 

If that sounds a bit much the Cleveland Steelman is pretty flat flat flat, which is alright for speed but can be a little boring.

Good luck with your training and don't overdo the running, 2-3 times a week should be sufficient if you do loads of cycling.


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## fimm (22 Aug 2011)

I get the impression that "A Day in the Lakes" makes Ironman 70.3 UK look easy, though? And Ironman 70.3 UK has a tough bike course? I did Aberfeldy Middle yesterday - swim in Loch Tay (always cold, got a bit wavey for us slower swimmers yesterday), cycle round Loch Rannoch (nice flat course except you go out over a big hill near the beginning and come back over it towards the end), run along by the river (undulating is the word, I believe...)


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## Rob3rt (22 Aug 2011)

fimm said:


> I get the impression that "A Day in the Lakes" makes Ironman 70.3 UK look easy, though? And Ironman 70.3 UK has a tough bike course? I did Aberfeldy Middle yesterday - swim in Loch Tay (always cold, got a bit wavey for us slower swimmers yesterday), cycle round Loch Rannoch (nice flat course except you go out over a big hill near the beginning and come back over it towards the end), run along by the river (undulating is the word, I believe...)



Congrats on your race yesterday, what were your split times like?


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## Ian 74 (22 Aug 2011)

fimm said:


> I get the impression that "A Day in the Lakes" makes Ironman 70.3 UK look easy, though? And Ironman 70.3 UK has a tough bike course?
> I did Aberfeldy Middle yesterday - swim in Loch Tay (always cold, got a bit wavey for us slower swimmers yesterday), cycle round Loch Rannoch (nice flat course except you go out over a big hill near the beginning and come back over it towards the end), run along by the river (undulating is the word, I believe...)




First well done you looks like a great event and it sounds like you had a blast... Mentioning IM UK 70.3 as you did I thought I'd take the opportunity to get something off my chest.... Hrmmm here goes.


Sadly with IM prices the way they are I don't think I'll be doing wimbleball any time soon to compare the two. Just checked the web made me chuckle £210 man that takes the



p1ss, don't forget the £18 booking fee on top.... A Day in the Lakes £40 bosh, great day out tough, rewarding course in some of the most beautiful countryside in the UK...


I'm sure IM UK70.3 is a fab event, I just don't think it is geared towards us poor people. 

Any way sorry for having a rant it just annoys me.


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## fimm (23 Aug 2011)

Yes, with Ironman you pay a lot and you're paying for the brand and the experience so on. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. I think Aberfeldy was £80? I was pretty slow - I thought I was in the last dozen or so, but turn out to have been 25th ish from last - 47 minute swim, 3:40 bike, 2:05 run (8 minute T1 because I was really cold coming out of the water...) total time 6:44.


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## Ian 74 (23 Aug 2011)

fimm said:


> Yes, with Ironman you pay a lot and you're paying for the brand and the experience so on. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. I think Aberfeldy was £80? I was pretty slow - I thought I was in the last dozen or so, but turn out to have been 25th ish from last - 47 minute swim, 3:40 bike, 2:05 run (8 minute T1 because I was really cold coming out of the water...) total time 6:44.



£80 is a reasonable figure. Sounds like you enjoyed yourself and 25th ish from last ain't bad. I did the old man of coniston tri on a whim with no training and came LAST this year. I had an excellent day ended up doing 5 wainwrights instead of 4 but I was really pleased and proud to complete it in someways coming last was the icing on the cake. 8 and a bit hours all told, Truly brutal and I'll be back again next year but faster... Maybe, unless I get lazy again.


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## Rob3rt (6 Sep 2011)

Hows the training going BrumJim?


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## tsddave (6 Sep 2011)

I used to run alot.

Afew pointers:=


1) Get yourself fitted to some good quality running shoes. Dont trust the shops - read running magazines and running websites for the best information on your foot type and what makes of shoes are best for it.

2) Dont go any real distance in new shoes, especially not an event. Break them in for at least a months worth of running 1st.
This assumes you will run at least 3 times a week.

3) Take fluid and a light energy snack with you on your runs. Dont be afraid to wear a backpack either. This can contain a rain coat and other essentials for long runs

4) In training for an event get yourself on a good exercise plan to prepare yourself for an event. Dont rush things it will only end in tears.

5) Sleep proper hours , eat healthy and drink plenty of water throughout every day. It will make a world of difference to whatever sport you do.


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## BrumJim (6 Sep 2011)

8.5 miles last week, but for some reason didn't feel good, so was only doing 9 minute miles.
Gave blood this week, so reluctant to push this up again until next week. So planning a 7.5 miles with my training partner/minister tomorrow, and 8.5 again on Thursday home from work. With Parkrun on Saturday to finish the week off.

Legs hurting during and after running, but don't get worse during the run. Mostly at the bottom of calves at the back, and a slight hint of plantar fasciitis still remaining in the left foot.

Went cycling on Saturday - 60 miles and some serious climbing (1,400 ft on one climb, and two others in the 600ft region). Loved it, and nothing hurt. So suffering from "don't like running" syndrome at the moment. However Pubrunner on the same ride has seen me ascend these hills, and thinks that I should finish easily in 1hr 45mins. Like his confidence!!


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## Rob3rt (7 Sep 2011)

Are you trying to do all of your runs at the same longer distance? I think you might be better off doing something like

Tuesday - 3-5 mile
Wednesday - 4-6 mile
Friday - 3-5 mile
Sunday - Long run

You might also like to start doing some speedwork (now you have got some miles into your legs) on the wednesday and friday too, maybe tuesday 1km reps x 4 with 2 mins easy running in between (plus a 1 mile warm up and cooldown), and friday fartlekk or 30-30 reps.


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## BrumJim (7 Sep 2011)

Only three runs a week at the moment. One day is pushing hard (long and fast), one day is more gentle - 11 minute miles and 6+ miles in length, but more sociable, and Parkrun (Saturday) is speed work, but no reps. Might replace one of the longer runs with the proper speed work instead, although if I time Parkrun right I can make that 1 mile fast, 10 minutes rest, 5k fast, 5 minutes rest, 1 mile fast.

If I have a good long run this week, then might feel a lot better.


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## BrumJim (9 Sep 2011)

6.5 miles on Wednesday
9.5 miles on Thursday.

Lower calf left leg was complaining, otherwise it would have been 10.5 miles. Thought caution was the better option, especially as the last mile was downhill, so wasn't cheating to walk it instead. I'd done all the hard work.

Yes, much better. Back down to 8min 10s miles, except on uphill bits and where I stopped for a drink.


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## BrumJim (6 Oct 2011)

9 miles, at consistent 8 minute mile pace, and no pains at the end - just general muscle tiredness. And felt pretty good too at the end.

Feeling confident for 23rd now.


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## pubrunner (7 Oct 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Pubrunner on the same ride has seen me ascend these hills, and thinks that I should finish easily in 1hr 45mins. Like his confidence!!



A fair prediction, I feel ! 1hr 45mins is pretty much 'spot on' 8 minute mile pace !



BrumJim said:


> 9 miles, at *consistent 8 minute mile pace*, and no pains at the end - just general muscle tiredness. And felt pretty good too at the end.
> 
> Feeling confident for 23rd now.



Pace is the key; you should (imo) be aiming to do 8 minute miles *all* the way round. Consistent pace is the thing and if you can achieve that, your confidence will grow during the race. But don't worry if you get held up at the start and your 1st mile is 8.30. However, if you do a 7.30 1st mile, you'll almost certainly 'pay' for it later.

Best of luck ! . . . . . . . & enjoy it !


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## BrumJim (7 Oct 2011)

No 11583 and green wave. All looking very real, now.


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## BrumJim (7 Oct 2011)

pubrunner said:


> However, if you do a 7.30 1st mile, you'll almost certainly 'pay' for it later.



The tricky bit is that the first mile or two is downhill, so will definitely be fast. I've just got to make sure that it isn't too fast.


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## Glover Fan (11 Oct 2011)

Not as amazing as the posts above, but went for my first proper run since February after coming down with severe runners knee.

Done 3.8 miles in 33 minutes. Feel really good and the knee feels perfect. Hopefully combined with the cycling I should progress in both disciplines. But its baby steps for now. Not going to go too far too fast. Made that mistake before.


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## captainhastings (11 Oct 2011)

Just out of interest they say the glutes are very important in running as in they need to be well used so they fire I think my physio said so at least cycling is good for producing strong and fully functioning glutes ?


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## BrumJim (12 Oct 2011)

Glutes have not been a problem when running at all.
Calf muscles been giving me the most grief. On very long runs, the tops of my thighs start to complain.
Quads and glutes not even being hinting of strain.


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## captainhastings (12 Oct 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Glutes have not been a problem when running at all.
> Calf muscles been giving me the most grief. On very long runs, the tops of my thighs start to complain.
> Quads and glutes not even being hinting of strain.




My upper legs have been fine too but in the past I have had knee problems which according to the physio could have been caused by lazy glutes


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## Glover Fan (12 Oct 2011)

Got some DOMS today, but not as bad as when I have started running before. Aches in my quads. Strange because when I ran they didn't hurt at all, but my calfs were awful, but don't hurt today!


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## mr Mag00 (12 Oct 2011)

lower calf pain due to forefoot running transfer process.


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## BrumJim (21 Oct 2011)

OK, half marathon on Sunday.
I've really been enjoying the tapering. Would have preferred to have started it a bit earlier (say, June). Now for the hardcore bit - off the alcohol after tonight.
Weather forecast to be warm, but windy. Wind from the S/SW, so with us for the first half, against for the second. Not too sure how to deal with this - fight it for the first part, and recover for the second before the final 2 mile hill and 1 mile flat, or keep energy consumption constant, so starting off slowly, and picking up speed on the return.
Oh, and definitely going for a 1hr 45 time, Mr Pubrunner.


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## pepecat (23 Oct 2011)

How'd you go Jim? I was looking out for you on Mary Vale road, but must have missed you.


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## brockers (23 Oct 2011)

Slight hijack, but I think I've finally got this running lark sussed. It might be somewhere upthread, but somewhere someone said to go really slowly for the first five minutes. I tried that, and found my strides got much smaller, but it felt more natural. I've been midfoot running for the last year, but would still go off too fast, but by making my strides smaller and quicker I can go for longer without even breaking into a sweat. To go faster, I up my stride rate to about 4 per second but keeping the strides quite small with the result that I actually feel like a proper runner (sort of)! I guess it's like learning how to spin a higher but more supple and efficient cadence on a bike.


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## BrumJim (23 Oct 2011)

Sorry - was wearing a bright orange top, but no cycle helmet!

Did it in 1hr 46mins 11secs. Slightly disappointed that I didn't break the 1hr 45 barrier, but ran as hard as I could, and pleased with the result, especially since this was my first ever running event since 1990, and my longest ever by a factor of >4.


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## Willo (23 Oct 2011)

That's a v.decent time, well done.


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## Norry1 (23 Oct 2011)

Well done mate - good result.

Martin


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## BrumJim (23 Oct 2011)

And I came 2,388th out of 11,443. (2153rd male, and 317th out of those in their early 40s).


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## VamP (24 Oct 2011)

Good job, well done mate.

Got the bug?


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## BrumJim (28 Oct 2011)

NO!
Prefer cycling. Much prefer cycling.


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## Banjo (28 Oct 2011)

BrumJim said:


> Sorry - was wearing a bright orange top, but no cycle helmet!
> 
> Did it in 1hr 46mins 11secs. Slightly disappointed that I didn't break the 1hr 45 barrier, but ran as hard as I could, and pleased with the result, especially since this was my first ever running event since 1990, and my longest ever by a factor of >4.



Nice one Jim good time as well. Are you hanging up your running shoes now ?


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## BrumJim (5 Nov 2011)

Banjo said:


> Nice one Jim good time as well. Are you hanging up your running shoes now ?


Need a pair of slightly 2nd hand size 11's for a slight over-pronator?


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## BrumJim (7 Nov 2011)

OK, I'll finish this thread off with a summary of what I have learnt.

This won't tell you how to prepare and train for a half marathon. This is a cycling forum, and you are better getting such information of a running expert/forum. Here you will find information on foot striking, pronation, soft vs thin shoes, diet, IT band failures, training regime, cadence, mid-race fuelling, pace, targets. What it will tell you is what I think a cyclist starting to run needs to know. I have started with the following assumption:

1) You have done a Sportive or two of at least 50 miles You have come in (or close to) the top third for 50 miles, or in top half of 100 miles. Therefore you are reasonably fit (rather fit compared to general population), and understand such issues as cadence, food and water requirements pre, during and post event.

2) You have been on here for a while, and have read various threads recommending how to improve your cycling. And have taken them on board.

3) You are committed to running as good a time as you can reasonably expect. Its not about finishing, its about finishing well and enjoying it.

My advice therefore is:

1) Take advice from runners - either a trainer, expert, forum or running group.

2) Listen to your legs, not your heart/lungs. At the start, your cardio system will be able to do much more than your legs will. Don't push your legs to match them. Steadily increase running distances by no more than a mile each run, as for any normal person. If your lower legs or base of feet start to hurt, listen to them, and give them a rest.

3) You may suffer short calf muscles. Add extra exercises and stretches (I'd recommend doing this before running) to this part, e.g. standing toes on steps, or specific calf stretches.

4) Parkrun. Look it up, and use it as a training aid.

5) You'll probably love hills more than most runners, particularly when you get better, so use that as a strength.

6) Aim high. I did it in 1hr 45min 11s, from never having done any running before.


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