# Are cheap bikes harder to ride



## Leemi1982 (15 Aug 2020)

Hi I have 2 bikes both Carreras yep Halfords bikes. ones a £250 hybrid and the others a £1000 Carrera Vengeance ebike Which I use all the time. I find my cheaper bike is pretty much redundant however on the rare occasion I go back on it and just to remind me how difficult it is to ride a manual living in a hilly area.

I often see people riding normal bikes around and think do I need a ebike is it because my manual bike is so cheap if I was to spend a little more on decent trek or giant, Specialized bike would I manage. 

I guess I like my ebike but still have a part of me that wants to ride a manual bike

I saw a couple pushing there bikes up a hill yesterday I don’t want to be that person I know my ebike can do it but would i manage on a decent manual bike. 

I’m not really a road bike type person always preferred hybrids or mountain bikes.


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## vickster (15 Aug 2020)

Leemi1982 said:


> Hi I have 2 bikes both Carreras yep Halfords bikes. ones a £250 hybrid and the others a £1000 Carrera Vengeance ebike Which I use all the time. I find my cheaper bike is pretty much redundant however on the rare occasion I go back on it and just to remind me how difficult it is to ride a manual living in a hilly area.
> 
> I often see people riding normal bikes around and think do I need a ebike is it because my manual bike is so cheap if I was to spend a little more on decent trek or giant, Specialized bike would I manage.
> 
> ...


May be nothing to do with the bike, but their fitness or health status more likely? Potentially coupled with poor gearing


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## Vantage (15 Aug 2020)

Ultimately, it's your willingness to put in the effort to get up the hills that holds you back. I'm the same...sort of. 
Whether your bike is a lump of iron or plastic carbon fibre you still have to pedal your own weight up the hill and that's likely to be far heavier than the bike. 
Some people love the pain of climbing and the feeling of conquering that hill through their own effort. Some love the simple joy of cycling whether it's aided or not. 
Doesn't really matter what you ride, as long as you do ride


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## CanucksTraveller (15 Aug 2020)

Carrera are perfectly good, serviceable bikes so you wouldn't find it night and day between say, an alu framed Shimano equipped Carrera hybrid versus say, an equivalent bike from Giant or Specialized. Both would be as easy to ride as each other, or as hard to ride as each other if it's hilly or the rider is unfit. 

If you go really, mega cheap the difference widens a touch, and it's more noticeable for a child; a small rider would find it easier to ride an alu Giant for example than something like a heavy steel Apollo or an ASDA 70 quid special. 

In your circumstances though, no. No real difference.


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## Leemi1982 (15 Aug 2020)

Ok thanks will stick to my ebike for now must be unfit☺️


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## vickster (15 Aug 2020)

Leemi1982 said:


> Ok thanks will stick to my ebike for now must be unfit☺


What’s the gearing? How much do you weigh, hills are always much harder for us on the heavy side


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## HMS_Dave (15 Aug 2020)

The difference is probably smaller than you think. The biggest weight of a bicycle is it's rider. The ability to climb hills is a lot to do with the rider although good gearing helps. I wouldn't get too caught up on weights unless you're planning on racing.


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## Arrowfoot (15 Aug 2020)

In my early days, I was advised by a good friend to change the stock wheels of my entry level aluminium bike. Changed it to the cheapest Fulcrum wheelset for about £200. Best decision ever, it was much lighter, moved smoothly and motivated me to push ahead. It was as different as chalk and cheese. Became fitter and less heavy as a result of the initial momentum.


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## 12boy (15 Aug 2020)

I ride for exercise and do a few errands. An inexpensive bike that fits, is properly tuned, and is geared to handle the terrain here is ok with me. However, unless on nonpaved roads or paths, heavy knobby tires do make a bike seem ungainly and slow.


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## Sharky (15 Aug 2020)

A cheap bike, provided the set up is the same and comfortable, will be no harder than a £10k machine. Bikes have gears , so when the legs can't cope with the wind or gradient, then you change to a lower gear. However, if you are riding in a group and they all have lighter, more expensive bikes with less rolling resistance, then to keep up the same speed as the others, will take more energy and thus will be harder.

So for solo riding you won't notice the difference - it will just take a bit longer.
Group riding will be harder.


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## cyberknight (15 Aug 2020)

Sharky said:


> A cheap bike, provided the set up is the same and comfortable, will be no harder than a £10k machine. Bikes have gears , so when the legs can't cope with the wind or gradient, then you change to a lower gear. However, if you are riding in a group and they all have lighter, more expensive bikes with less rolling resistance, then to keep up the same speed as the others, will take more energy and thus will be harder.
> 
> So for solo riding you won't notice the difference - it will just take a bit longer.
> Group riding will be harder.


I notice this at club rides, against my own PBs i am there still getting them but i turn up and they are on bikes 3 times the price i am working harder for the same speed . boardman team carbon vs mates bike trek emonda slr 6


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## Reynard (15 Aug 2020)

Fitness and gearing, definitely. 

I don't class myself as unfit - will quite happily ride a 30 mile round trip to visit friends etc. But I live out in the fens, and 30 miles on mostly flat (or at most gently rolling) roads is comfortable. Whereas the same distance on a hilly route (I love to ride in the Itchen Valley) is far, far harder, even with the right gearing, as I don't have hill legs. Sometimes I have to get off and walk. No shame in that. 

The one thing about bikes, is what people class as "cheap" and what they class as "expensive" is very much a sliding scale. Both my road bike and my hybrid were around £400 new. For some people, those would be classed as a very cheap bike, whereas others would think I've spent far too much. I'm also currently building up a rigid mountain bike from a £25 secondhand frame and forks.

As I cycle solo, I don't give a monkey's what other people think of my bikes. As long as my bikes put a smile on my face and I enjoy my rides, that's all that really matters.


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## wafter (15 Aug 2020)

When it comes to getting up hills the three most important factors are fitness, all-up weight and gearing. 

Obviously rider fitness has nowt to do with the bike, a boat-anchor of a bike won't help (cheaper usually means heavier) but an extra 5kg that might mean 50% extra on the mass of a bike only translates into about 6-7% factoring in rider weight and gear. Cheaper bikes also tend to have less versatile gearing (narrower range so you lose out at the bottom end), although hybrids and MTBs generally have lower gearing than road bikes so are probably more suited to going up steep hills, assuming the tyres are suitable for road use.

Ultimately if you're used to having another few hundred watts on tap from a motor, that's going to make far more of a difference than changing any of the above factors on a non-electric bike.


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## DRM (15 Aug 2020)

wafter said:


> When it comes to getting up hills the three most important factors are fitness, all-up weight and gearing.
> 
> Obviously rider fitness has nowt to do with the bike, a boat-anchor of a bike won't help (cheaper usually means heavier) but an extra 5kg that might mean 50% extra on the mass of a bike only translates into about 6-7% factoring in rider weight and gear. Cheaper bikes also tend to have less versatile gearing (narrower range so you lose out at the bottom end), although hybrids and MTBs generally have lower gearing than road bikes so are probably more suited to going up steep hills, assuming the tyres are suitable for road use.
> 
> Ultimately if you're used to having another few hundred watts on tap from a motor, that's going to make far more of a difference than changing any of the above factors on a non-electric bike.


This in spades, there's a steep climb on one of my loops, I've done it on an aluminium road bike with compact chain set & 11-28 Sora groupset, the 2 blokes in front of me were going up a lot easier than me on their 1x MTB's with a dinner plate sized cassette, however at the top on the level I left them way behind, it's like driving your car up a steep hill and letting it labour in 5th gear.


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## Blue Hills (15 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> Fitness and gearing, definitely.
> 
> I don't class myself as unfit - will quite happily ride a 30 mile round trip to visit friends etc. But I live out in the fens, and 30 miles on mostly flat (or at most gently rolling) roads is comfortable. Whereas the same distance on a hilly route (I love to ride in the Itchen Valley) is far, far harder, even with the right gearing, as I don't have hill legs. Sometimes I have to get off and walk. No shame in that.
> 
> ...


agree totally with your post, apart from the bit about the fens, which might give the impression that the flatness makes the rides easy. One of my most hellish rides (admittedly fully loaded) was across those hellish flatlands into the damn wind - I may never return. (or not going the same way)

edit - realise that I have used the same word twice in one sentence - bad style - but i plead forgiveness/understanding - it was hellish.


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Aug 2020)

Sorry what’s a manual bike? Never heard the term in 50 years of cycling. Something new in bike design I take it!


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## rogerzilla (15 Aug 2020)

However fit you are, there is some technique involved in climbing. Start the hill at a pace somewhat slower than you would naturally try to ride up it. It should feel as if you're not trying hard enough. All hills feel deceptively easy at the start but then you start to tire and, if you went off too fast, you'll have to slow to a crawl or even stop.

If you feel like you have spare energy about 2/3 of the way up, you can press on a little. But you'll rarely reach the top of a hill and wish you'd gone harder at it.


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## Reynard (15 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> agree totally with your post, apart from the bit about the fens, which might give the impression that the flatness makes the rides easy. One of my most hellish rides (admittedly fully loaded) was across those hellish flatlands into the damn wind - I may never return. (or not going the same way)
> 
> edit - realise that I have used the same word twice in one sentence - bad style - but i plead forgiveness/understanding - it was hellish.



Hmmm, good point. Maybe I should have said that it's a _*different*_ kind of difficult.

With the wind, you just find a comfortable (!) gear and just ride within yourself at a constant pace. There's no point fighting it, although sometimes I've been left wondering what the hell I'm actually doing out there on a bicycle.  Whereas hills, the hard bit for me comes from a) not being able to judge the gradient and gears simply because I'm not used to it, and b) having to constantly vary the pace and tempo as the gradient changes, which is what makes it so much more tiring.

Guess the reverse is true as well. It's all about what you're used to.

Heavens, the wind does as much damage to the peloton on the TdF on those ultra flat coastal stages as does the gradients in the mountains!


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## wafter (15 Aug 2020)

rogerzilla said:


> However fit you are, there is some technique involved in climbing. Start the hill at a pace somewhat slower than you would naturally try to ride up it. It should feel as if you're not trying hard enough. All hills feel deceptively easy at the start but then you start to tire and, if you went off too fast, you'll have to slow to a crawl or even stop.
> 
> If you feel like you have spare energy about 2/3 of the way up, you can press on a little. But you'll rarely reach the top of a hill and wish you'd gone harder at it.


Pacing is certainly key.. I could never do hills until I get a heart rate monitor which gave me a figure to maintain rather than speed, with which I evidently always aimed too high given what I was used to on the flat. The HRM is great as I can just tell myself that as long as I keep it at around 80% of max I'll get to the top of anything eventually


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## roubaixtuesday (15 Aug 2020)

cyberknight said:


> boardman team carbon vs mates bike trek emonda slr 6



The difference between these is negligible unless you're an elite professional athlete. It's you not the bike. Sorry. 

If it's any consolation (probably not...) I'm sure I'd be be slower than either of you, regardless of bike.


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## 12boy (16 Aug 2020)

Yesterday for a change of pace I enjoyed a short ride with some 10% grades on my Brompton which weighs about 25 lbs, I'd guess and a low gear of 36 gear inches. There was a sweet little crosswind to cool me off and the the climb had 3 blocks of flat and about 4 miles of climbing of 973 feet. This was an effort in some places but not too bad, although some lower gearing would have been nice. I have done that same ride ride in a headwind with that bike and it was so much harder and slower. I think of 20 mph headwinds as giving the opportunity to ride up hill on level ground. My point here is its not just weight, fitness and gearing... aerodynamics are important too, as an upright position can be a lot more work than bent over, so being to sustain a more aero position comfortanly can be useful.


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## ChrisEyles (16 Aug 2020)

Never ridden a properly expensive bike, but on the range of £100 - £500 bikes I've ridden, the biggest speed difference from kit alone seems to come from decent tyres, followed by comfortable/aero riding position (which needn't cost anything, though a lot of really cheap BSOs are designed around an upright riding posture). Much as I love them, adding panniers adds a noticeable amount of air resistance resulting in lower average speeds. 

Lighter wheels/frames feel nippier when accelerating which is nice, but I don't think they make a massive difference to my average speed for a given perceived level of effort. 

Generally I've been really pleased with Shimano gear from Altus through to Alivio, and even Tourney performs perfectly well (although occasionally I've found they can be trickier to set up). Going up the groupset hierarchy costs quite a lot for what I'd consider to be relatively small performance gains. 

Sorry I'm rambling... as others have mentioned, rider fitness is the key thing!


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## chris-suffolk (16 Aug 2020)

ChrisEyles said:


> ... the biggest speed difference from kit alone seems to come from decent tyres...
> 
> Lighter wheels/frames feel nippier when accelerating which is nice, but I don't think they make a massive difference to my average speed for a given perceived level of effort.



Yes, have to agree with both of these. Switching to lighter wheels, and better (lighter) tyres on my already reasonably light carbon road bike - I found it made about 1/2 to 3/4 of a gear difference and an average speed increase of about 2 mph for the same effort. Bike feels nicer to ride. Downside is cost, as none of this comes cheap!! 

As to hills, agree with above - find a gear that will get you to the top, and stay in it unless the gradient changes markedly up or down. Gradient marker posts (as found on most alpine climbs) also help, especially on a 10 mile 10% hill !! Great to count them off towards the top.


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## cyberknight (16 Aug 2020)

roubaixtuesday said:


> The difference between these is negligible unless you're an elite professional athlete. It's you not the bike. Sorry.
> 
> If it's any consolation (probably not...) I'm sure I'd be be slower than either of you, regardless of bike.


on the flipside when i ride my commuting bike im a good 2 mph slower average than my best bike .


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## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2020)

wafter said:


> When it comes to getting up hills the three most important factors are fitness, all-up weight and gearing.



The biggest one in my book is the standard of maintenance, not the price of the bike. I run a couple of what were very cheap bikes when new, an old Apollo MTB and a Puch 3-speed. There is no significant difference in the amount of effort needed to ride these bikes compared with my expensive when new bikes, so long as you compare like for like as regards the type of tyres fitted. 
However, my bikes are maintained so the things that need to be kept lubricated are lubricated, the wheel bearings are not over-tightened, the back wheels sit square in the frames and roll freely - not skewed to one side so they scrub, the brake blocks don't drag on the rims, and I don't ride around with half flat tyres. All these little things are the difference between a bike that rides easy and a bike that rides like a dog - and they have nothing at all to do with how much the bike cost when new.


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## Lozz360 (17 Aug 2020)

YukonBoy said:


> Sorry what’s a manual bike? Never heard the term in 50 years of cycling. Something new in bike design I take it!


I think the OP was referring to a manual bike being his/her non electric assist bike. A conventional bicycle in other words.


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## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2020)

I simply call the human powered variety proper bikes!


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## ChrisEyles (17 Aug 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I simply call the human powered variety proper bikes!



Yep! Now I feel very faintly non-PC 😂


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## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2020)

ChrisEyles said:


> Now I feel very faintly non-PC 😂



Don't worry about it. I'm completely non-PC, in fact more a_nti-PC_ - and it's a good feeling to have. 👍


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## swee'pea99 (17 Aug 2020)

Vantage said:


> Whether your bike is a lump of iron or plastic carbon fibre you still have to pedal your own weight up the hill and that's likely to be far heavier than the bike.





HMS_Dave said:


> The biggest weight of a bicycle is it's rider.


Makes good sense, but the odd thing is it just doesn't tally with the riding experience. The difference between my carbon & steel frames - both good - is probably 5kg or less, which you'd think would make not a lot of difference to the total weight: 80kg v 85kg maybe. But going uphill on the carbon is a _lot _easier than on the steel. I've never really understood it, but it definitely is the case. 

The only other thing I'd say is that while fitness is obviously the single most important factor, being in the right gear makes a helluva difference. When I see people struggling on a hill they're almost always in too high a gear. 'Spin don't grind', as they say - and they're right!


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## ChrisEyles (17 Aug 2020)

^^^
Agree with this, but I've always assumed it's mostly psychological. I certainly pedal harder on my road bike than my 1950s roadster, cause it's my "fast bike". 

I also find if I've got really low gears I crawl up hills in the lowest one I've got, whereas I'll get up a lot faster if I'm not given this option (obviously more tiring!).


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## Colin Grigson (17 Aug 2020)

My old (cheap) steel hybrid is definitely harder (as in more effort required to attain a similar speed regardless of gear selection) than my carbon road bike .... that seems to almost push itself along in comparison. I notice this much more into a stiff headwind.


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## Reynard (17 Aug 2020)

Colin Grigson said:


> My old (cheap) steel hybrid is definitely harder (as in more effort required to attain a similar speed regardless of gear selection) than my carbon road bike .... that seems to almost push itself along in comparison. I notice this much more into a stiff headwind.



Well, I certainly notice the difference between my 9 kg road bike and my 12 kg hybrid.

Both are alloy, although admittedly the latter is running with guards, rack and panniers. Mind, when I'm on the roadie, I *ride* whereas on the hybrid, unless I'm tight to catch a train, I *bimble* 

Although I am a slow cyclist, so the difference between riding and bimbling is, erm, marginal.


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## SkipdiverJohn (17 Aug 2020)

The differences in weight between high end steel and carbon fibre frames & forks is a lot less than people think.
The best steel frames money can buy (think Reynolds 753 or similar) weigh around 1,700g for the frame and around 600g for the fork, so about 2.3 kg or 5 lbs.
A half decent CF frame & forks might come in around 1.1 kg or 2.4 lbs.

Your weight saving is nothing like 5kg with carbon, otherwise the CF frame would have to weigh less than nothing. Any weight saving over and above around 2 1/2 lbs compared to high grade butted steel has got to come from the fitting of ultra lightweight parts & accessories elsewhere on the bike; wheels, seatposts, saddles, bottle cages, bars, cranks etc. It's not all coming from the frame.


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## Ming the Merciless (17 Aug 2020)

Lozz360 said:


> I think the OP was referring to a manual bike being his/her non electric assist bike. A conventional bicycle in other words.



Ah just a bike then, no prefix warranted.


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## xzenonuk (19 Aug 2020)

got a load of big hills around here and depending on where i am cycling there are a load on the way back, i usually go up the hills on the bike regardless of how slow i go just as long as i get up it, sometimes im too knackered or get chest pains then i have to walk up the odd big one, all good, still exercise 

got total burnt off by a old guy who whootled passed me on a leccy bike before up one of they hills and i just thought wow good for him 

my cheapo triban 500se had a nice difference when i upgraded the stock wheels, my old model rockrider 540 is my go to bike though as i have gained weight and the lower gearing is awesome for the mentioned evil hills.

if you want a decent but cheapish bike look up decathlon for something to go along side your leccy one


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## Mike Ayling (20 Aug 2020)

Leemi1982 said:


> Hi I have 2 bikes both Carreras yep Halfords bikes. ones a £250 hybrid and the others a £1000 Carrera Vengeance ebike Which I use all the time. I find my cheaper bike is pretty much redundant however on the rare occasion I go back on it and just to remind me how difficult it is to ride a manual living in a hilly area.
> 
> I often see people riding normal bikes around and think do I need a ebike is it because my manual bike is so cheap if I was to spend a little more on decent trek or giant, Specialized bike would I manage.
> 
> ...


I think people are missing the point in this thread.
Even if the OP had a 6,000 quid super light weight bike he would find it harder to ride up hill than on his ebike!

Mike


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## Tom B (20 Aug 2020)

Seems were comparing ebikes with cheap pedal only bikes. Of course the ebike will be easier to pedal, the extra weight may affect the handling.

I'm yet to find a hill I can't ride my standard bike up but could ride and ebike up. It's all about fitness. I'm not saying that in a bad way, but fitness is something that you build and takes time. When I started riding again my 12 mile commute was an epic that could only manage Tuesdays and Thursdays, then I managed Mondays Wednesdays and fridays, then each day. First it was hard work but as the fitness built and I cycled more and more it became easier and easier, now it's inconsequential it's just something I do that barely registers.

I do find the geometry of some really cheap bikes is uncomfortable, but my mate has a £1500 hybrid that feels horrible to me, like riding a deckchair, but it suits him and he hates my £500 clunker.

I was pondering a few days ago if one had an ebike and the battery lasted 50miles of a 100mile ride would completing the 100mile ride manually result in more of less calories burned than on a plain bike given you'd be lugging dead batteries around. Too many variables to ever calculate properly but amused me for a few hours.


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## Justinitus (20 Aug 2020)

Health and fitness of the rider will have the most noticeable effect. 
Bike setup is important too - correct saddle height (it’s usually higher than most novices think!), stack, reach etc makes for the most efficient peddling experience.
Bike weight will also play a part, especially rotational weight - so lighter wheels and tyres will help. 
And just as important is a properly maintained, lubed and adjusted bicycle - a rusty chain and rubbing brakes can only make turning those rusted seized pedals harder!


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## confusedcyclist (20 Aug 2020)

Leemi1982 said:


> I saw a couple pushing there bikes up a hill yesterday I don’t want to be that person


No one told me pushing was an option, why didn't I think of that


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## confusedcyclist (20 Aug 2020)

I don't know how long it took me to stop caring about how fast others were going, but once it sets in, it rarely comes back, for long anyway. Every now and then someone will come screaming past me, and I might have been away with the fairies, and the rude awakening inspires me to catch up and give chase. SCR forever, but I love my heavier bikes for their useful properties. I have to remind myself I had a light weight machine once, but I always preferred the bike with mudguards, rack, panniers & dynamo lighting system. I sold my racer in the end as it rarely came out, except for group rides. But when I ride in groups now, it's a social thing, and my mates don't mind waiting at the top of a climb, where the heavier bike always fairs worst. I'm rarely the slowest anyway as I have decent fitness from daily riding a lumpy steel framed commuter.


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## Blue Hills (20 Aug 2020)

Tom B said:


> I was pondering a few days ago if one had an ebike and the battery lasted 50miles of a 100mile ride would completing the 100mile ride manually result in more of less calories burned than on a plain bike given you'd be lugging dead batteries around. Too many variables to ever calculate properly but amused me for a few hours.


Good question - knowing my self and my talents in physics/maths/biology/anything vaguely scientific, I wouldn't myself spend more than 10 seconds contemplating it. But it is never-the- less a good question.
Maybe some of our more talented members can address it.
I am no weight weenie, carry lots of stuff that I _may _need on a ride, but there is surely nothing more like dead useless weight than a dead battery.


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## confusedcyclist (20 Aug 2020)

Tom B said:


> I was pondering a few days ago if one had an ebike and the battery lasted 50miles of a 100mile ride would completing the 100mile ride manually result in more of less calories burned than on a plain bike given you'd be lugging dead batteries around. Too many variables to ever calculate properly but amused me for a few hours.



Well, you'd be plain daft to set out on a 100 mile ride with a 50 mile range ebike! Certainly pushing an ebike up hill is no fun, but not a huge problem if your route is mostly flat with only a few short climbs. My ebike is about as heavy a proper gaslight piping roadster, which you don't really see many people climbing with for good reason! I've arrived within a mile of home with a battery at 4%, I thought I would make it, but to my surprise at the time, I learned the motor shuts off under 5% to keep the lights and power meter operating but no assistance. It's a steep 1 mile climb, and cobbled in parts. Not fun. If you fancy putting the theory to the test, strap a crate of beer to your back and get pedalling


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## matticus (20 Aug 2020)

50-mile climb followed by 50-mile descent might be OK.


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## Tom B (20 Aug 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> If you fancy putting the theory to the test, strap a crate of beer to your back and get pedalling



Are you buying?


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## Shropshire65LW (20 Aug 2020)

I’ve just gone from. Giant Anyroad to a £100 neglected hybrid .......it’s much nice to ride tho I am building to my spec gearing and components. Very Happy .
my bike is for pleasure and a bit of fitness , no rush to get anywhere nice easy gearIng Good components provided nice gear changes the only issue I have is a sore bum  some days
I guess the time will come for a electric one, I see the advantage of travelling more miles in a day 
seeing more places when and feeling a little more relaxed maybe .im guessing .
ibe no real experience with bikes only about 100 yards .it was nice to ride 
and intrigued me to what 30/50 Miles would feel like guess one day I’ll find out


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## Blue Hills (20 Aug 2020)

Shropshire65LW said:


> and intrigued me to what 30/50 Miles would feel like guess one day I’ll find out


keep pedalling under your own steam (as long as no health issues), gradually building up, and you will be there in no time.
The first bike I bought was in central london - i lived at the time maybe 12 miles out - the folk in the shop suggested i ride it home - at the time I thought them somewhat bonkers.


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## SkipdiverJohn (21 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I am no weight weenie, carry lots of stuff that I _may _need on a ride, but there is surely nothing more like dead useless weight than a dead battery.



The issue of how much energy you can cram into a given weight of battery or fuel tank is ultimately why electric cars are struggling to become a mass market product for long distance journeys. The amount of weight added by all the e-hardware on a bike is disproportionate to any benefit it gives, IMHO. Other than for short distance urban delivery duties, where you can have the bike equivalent of an electric milkfloat, I see regular e-bikes mainly as something marketed to people who don't really like the idea of cycling involving much physical effort.


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## Nomadski (23 Aug 2020)

Some people find ebikes really hard to stay upright on, right @themosquitoking ?


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## Mike Ayling (23 Aug 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> The issue of how much energy you can cram into a given weight of battery or fuel tank is ultimately why electric cars are struggling to become a mass market product for long distance journeys. The amount of weight added by all the e-hardware on a bike is disproportionate to any benefit it gives, IMHO. Other than for short distance urban delivery duties, where you can have the bike equivalent of an electric milkfloat, I see regular e-bikes mainly as something marketed to people who don't really like the idea of cycling involving much physical effort.


See my sig

Mike


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## Lovacott (23 Aug 2020)

Leemi1982 said:


> I saw a couple pushing there bikes up a hill yesterday I don’t want to be that person I know my ebike can do it but would i manage on a decent manual bike.



I have three very big and long hills on my work commute. When I started riding again (five months ago), I couldn't do any of them all the way up.

So I decided that each day, I would push myself as hard as I could and see how far I could get. 

After two weeks, I could do all of the hills in the granny gears but be exhausted, another two weeks and I was doing them a bit quicker and only feeling slightly puffed.

Five months in and my legs have turned into tree trunks.

It's amazing what riding a bike does for your body and fitness.


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## Lovacott (23 Aug 2020)

HMS_Dave said:


> The difference is probably smaller than you think. The biggest weight of a bicycle is it's rider. The ability to climb hills is a lot to do with the rider although good gearing helps. I wouldn't get too caught up on weights unless you're planning on racing.



The more I see written about bike weight, the less important it seems to be.

Because I do a cross country commute, I have to take a fair bit of gear with me. My work clothes, lunch, mobile, towel, spare parts and tools. I add on another kilo when I fill my 1 litre water bottle.

I then pop on my 14 1/2 stone body.

So I'm not about to spend £200 reducing the weight of my bike by 500 grams by installing a lighter weight groupset.

I 100% get it if you are a racing competitor (fine margins and all that).

But for us commuters?


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## SkipdiverJohn (23 Aug 2020)

Lovacott said:


> The more I see written about bike weight, the less important it seems to be.
> 
> Because I do a cross country commute, I have to take a fair bit of gear with me. My work clothes, lunch, mobile, towel, spare parts and tools. I add on another kilo when I fill my 1 litre water bottle.
> 
> ...



Bike weight does matter - up to a certain point. But the sort of weight-reduction obsession suffered by many cyclists is just silly, when you factor in how many pounds they have to spend to save a few hundred grams. It's not normally mere hundreds of pounds either, often thousands 
In extremis, say you decided to build a bike from bits of scaffold tube welded together. The thing would certainly be strong, but it would weigh so much that it would completely ruin the enjoyment of cycling.
If you then got on an old-school rod-braked 3-speed after riding the scaffold bike, you would think you were on a racer. So, in cycling, everything is relative to the alternatives, and also relative to the strength and size of the rider.
I weigh 200 lbs take, and I have a 3-speed Raleigh in my fleet that weighs 40 lbs, so the bike is 20% of my body weight. If I was a skinny 140 lb runner/fitness type, I would probably find riding a 40 lb bike hard going, as it would total almost 40% of my body weight. 
So, for the larger rider, so long as your weight is not just fat, the weight of the bike is less of a factor than it is for someone who is smaller and lighter.
It's well worth owning a reasonably light bike for fair weather leisure use, say something in the mid-high 20's of pounds range. I have a Reynolds steel job that weighs 26 lbs without tools and water, and it's great for riding just for fun. From a 40 lb bike down to 26 lbs is a big difference, and massively less effort on hills. My lightest bike is about 24 lbs, and the difference between that and the 26 lb one is barely worth talking about. So big, easy, and cheap weight savings can be worth having, but the incrementally small very expensive ones are way over-hyped IMHO.


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## confusedcyclist (27 Aug 2020)

In this industrialised world, where machines do nearly all our heavy labour, why are some people so afraid of putting in any extra effort? Inactivity is a disease! Some hardly get enough exercise as it is. Well said @SkipdiverJohn, couldn't have put it better myself. Do things that are difficult, if only for the health benefits and sense of achievement. This is not coming from a place of macho pride, it's just living and respecting what you already have.


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## Lovacott (27 Aug 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> In this industrialised world, where machines do nearly all our heavy labour, why are some people so afraid of putting in any extra effort? Inactivity is a disease! Do things that are difficult, if only for the health benefits and sense of achievement.



I can't exercise just for the sake of it. I can't be bothered with doing press ups or lifting weights.

But riding a bike is something I can incorporate into my daily routine by using it for commuting. The exercise has a purpose which is to get me from A to B.


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## Blue Hills (27 Aug 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> In this industrialised world, where machines do nearly all our heavy labour, why are some people so afraid of putting in any extra effort?


I think with SOME it's because they like showing off their machines.


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## confusedcyclist (27 Aug 2020)

Lovacott said:


> I can't exercise just for the sake of it. I can't be bothered with doing press ups or lifting weights.
> 
> But riding a bike is something I can incorporate into my daily routine by using it for commuting. The exercise has a purpose which is to get me from A to B.


Not an uncommon attitude, it's also why most people who don't get ANY exercise quit going to the gym after 2 weeks. We are hardwired to prefer the lazy approach (up to a point) as in a survival situation, any wasted calories could be the difference between life and death.

I find sticking with an exercise routine that is non-functional requires gargantuan volumes of motivation which I cannot sustain for more than a few months at a time. If only we could make the roads feel safer and ammodate more novices, we'd be much better off as a nation, through NHS savings alone, not to mention resources wasted on more roads, fuel, pollution, road deaths etc.


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## Reynard (27 Aug 2020)

Going to a gym or to exercise classes is so not me.  

I do miss being a member of a fencing club as like cycling, it's a sport I enjoy, but alas there is no longer a club nearby.

These days I get most of my exercise through cycling (whether for pleasure or just being out and about doing stuff), walking (I'm too tight to cough up for bus fares!) and keeping my solid fuel heating fed with logs. Hefting loppers, chain saw or log maul for an hour or two on a regular basis doesn't half give one a full body workout.


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## Blue Hills (27 Aug 2020)

Reynard said:


> walking (I'm too tight to cough up for bus fares!)


You are in luck - such is the government's dedication to improving public health that outside london, particularly in the north, they have been scrapping rural bus services for years.


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## Reynard (27 Aug 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> You are in luck - such is the government's dedication to improving public health that outside london, particularly in the north, they have been scrapping rural bus services for years.



Bus services out here in the boonies are pretty sketchy - it's five miles to a bus stop that's going to get me anywhere useful. But when I'm in an urban area e.g. Cambridge, London etc, I'll walk out of preference. Quite often it's quicker anyway.


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## SkipdiverJohn (28 Aug 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> In this industrialised world, where machines do nearly all our heavy labour, why are some people so afraid of putting in any extra effort?



I was once having a conversation along these lines with a female friend, concerning why women were prepared to tolerate dieting but not so willing to be more active and burn calories through exercise. 
The explanation I got, was along the lines that dieting didn't make you sweaty and smelly or mess up your hair, whereas strenuous exercise did. Don't underestimate the vanity/appearance factors, especially in the case of people who have jobs that require them to look presentable when they walk in the door.


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## RichardB (27 Sep 2020)

I have an ebike, a 10-speed road bike and a 'vintage' MTB. Although the two pushbikes have different gearing, layout and riding positions, they are broadly similar in the effort needed. One is faster on the flat, one is easier up hills, but similar. Both are a mile away from the effort needed on the ebike. It's night and day. (I tend to ride the ebike at maximum effort as I do with the others, so I still get a workout, but my average speeds are probably 50% better.) If the OP thinks that a better pushbike will be easier to ride and come close to the ease of an ebike, he's in for a disappointment.

However, I disagree with people who are snooty about ebikes and regard them as cheating, or only for the old and infirm. I hadn't cycled seriously for years, and wanted to start cycle commuting again. I could never have managed the commute on a conventional bike in the state of fitness I had then (13 hilly miles each way on poor rural roads). But on the ebike I could manage it easily and soon built up a level of fitness that meant I could start riding conventional bikes properly again, first for short distances and then for longer. I probably only use the ebike about 5% of the time now (mainly when there's a heavy load of shopping to do) but I wouldn't be without it because it is such massive fun.


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## Blue Hills (27 Sep 2020)

Not everyone rides ebikes like you though. I see a fair amount of folk purring along on them putting not a lot of work in. Many of these folk are a lot younger than me. Of course I don't know about the cycling of these folks drifting past me but i suspect many don't do much "physical" cycling at all and just go out for heavily powered shortish rides.


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## SkipdiverJohn (27 Sep 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> I see a fair amount of folk purring along on them putting not a lot of work in. Many of these folk are a lot younger than me. .



I see exactly the same thing myself. I've come to the conclusion that most e-bikes are not being ridden by people who actually need one to enable them to keep riding due to age or medical conditions. Most of them are clearly just being bought by people who are lazy and don't want cycling to involve any more physical exertion than absolutely necessary. That means in some cases, it will simply result in someone who already cycled anyway, reducing their activity level for the same mileage. It won't necessarily encourage riders to do more miles, or over tougher routes. That will depend if the individual is prepared to put some work in or they are just a slacker looking for, literally, an easy ride.


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## Eziemnaik (27 Sep 2020)

Cheap bikes are not harder to ride
But cheap components are definitely harder on my nerves....


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## Blue Hills (27 Sep 2020)

Eziemnaik said:


> Cheap bikes are not harder to ride
> But cheap components are definitely harder on my nerves....


luckily I don't think shimano does anything which is actually bad.


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## Eziemnaik (27 Sep 2020)

True that
Even tourney just works
Nevertheless there are still cheap headsets, cheap wheelsets, cheap screws loosing the thread, dirt cheap tyres which are deathtraps in the rain and my favourite are cheap inner tubes losing the air without an apparent reason


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## Lovacott (27 Sep 2020)

Leemi1982 said:


> Hi, I have 2 bikes. I often see people riding normal bikes around and think do I need a ebike



I really don't get the E Bike thing. I own and run a motorbike, car and I also cycle to work. The motorbike gets me there quickly, the car gets me there dry and the pushbike gives me a life experience I will never forget and keeps me fit.

What is it again that E bikes do?


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## rivers (27 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> What is it again that E bikes do?


Allows someone who for some reason needs a bit of assistance to ride a bike. My wife is a fulltime fitness instructor, so pretty fit in the grand scheme of things. But she rides an e-bike. It means she can cycle to work without putting added pressure on her body. It also means we can go on longer rides together without her struggling or being too tired. It basically enables her to ride a bike when she otherwise wouldn't.


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## RichardB (27 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> What is it again that E bikes do?



Gets people on two wheels who might otherwise be driving a car, with benefits in health, mental outlook, pollution, congestion.
Gives you a workout which is beneficial, if not as intense as conventional cycling.
Gives people a way to return to cycling when their fitness/the local topography may prevent normal cycling straight away.

Those are three from my own experience. I could also add:

Allowing those whose age or infirmity prevents them from conventional cycling to have the wonderful benefits of an afternoon out on two wheels - if you appreciate how wonderful cycling can be, you surely don't want to deny it to those people, do you?

I can't see why you are so negative, to be honest. Are they hurting you in some way by riding ebikes? Or do you have a moral objection to someone getting pleasure without the requisite pain? Live and let live.


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## Lovacott (28 Sep 2020)

RichardB said:


> Gets people on two wheels who might otherwise be driving a car, with benefits in health, mental outlook, pollution, congestion.
> Gives you a workout which is beneficial, if not as intense as conventional cycling.
> Gives people a way to return to cycling when their fitness/the local topography may prevent normal cycling straight away.



OK, I get that.

But the majority of E Bikes I've seen are being ridden by teenagers whose parents have more money than sense. The local cycle trail is a flat ex railway line some 18 miles in length and is an easy ride on even the cheapest Halfords bike. But this year, it was polluted with kids hooning along on battery power getting zero exercise benefit.


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## Lovacott (28 Sep 2020)

SkipdiverJohn said:


> I see exactly the same thing myself. I've come to the conclusion that most e-bikes are not being ridden by people who actually need one to enable them to keep riding due to age or medical conditions. Most of them are clearly just being bought by people who are lazy and don't want cycling to involve any more physical exertion than absolutely necessary. That means in some cases, it will simply result in someone who already cycled anyway, reducing their activity level for the same mileage.



There are a couple of hills I do each day which really test me and I know that if I had a switch on my bike to turbo me up them, I'd be pressing it.

But because I haven't got a switch, I have no choice but to puff and pant my way to the top. This in turn gives me a brilliant cardio workout and over time, the hills have got easier.


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## Blue Hills (28 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> There are a couple of hills I do each day which really test me and I know that if I had a switch on my bike to turbo me up them, I'd be pressing it.
> 
> But because I haven't got a switch, I have no choice but to puff and pant my way to the top. This in turn gives me a brilliant cardio workout and over time, the hills have got easier.


I was grinding up a steep lancashire hill recently, day ride but well loaded because of covid, two women sat in a car mid slope (not sure what that all about) gave me a friendly thumbs up encouragement/salute of respect. Further on some bloke significantly younger than me purred past on his ebike. I almost went back down the hill to check that they hadn't given him the salute as well.


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## Blue Hills (28 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> There are a couple of hills I do each day which really test me and I know that if I had a switch on my bike to turbo me up them, I'd be pressing it.
> 
> But because I haven't got a switch, I have no choice but to puff and pant my way to the top. This in turn gives me a brilliant cardio workout and over time, the hills have got easier.


and also, puffed out, you might grab the excuse of a pause/sit down on a bench/grassy knoll to eat a snack and admire the glory of the scenery and nature. To think about stuff/let your mind wander. The rhythm of life. I still mean to get back to the west of scotland and the isles on a loaded bike I sped through in a big car years ago. Many of these younger able bodied ebike riders are I think going to be similarly missing stuff as they float ever onwards.


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## Lovacott (28 Sep 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> and also, puffed out, you might grab the excuse of a pause/sit down on a bench/grassy knoll to eat a snack and admire the glory of the scenery and nature.



Fifteen minutes after leaving home in the morning, I take a five minute break at the top of the hardest hill I have on my route. I drink the best part of a litre of water and let my heart rate and breathing get back to somewhere near normal before setting off again. I've come to see it as quality time as the view from the top is amazing with wide stretching coastal and estuary views and Lundy Island rearing up from the Atlantic Ocean some 13 miles away. My daily stop has become one of lifes luxuries and I feel as though I've earned it.


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## RichardB (28 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> OK, I get that.
> 
> But the majority of E Bikes I've seen are being ridden by teenagers whose parents have more money than sense. The local cycle trail is a flat ex railway line some 18 miles in length and is an easy ride on even the cheapest Halfords bike. But this year, it was polluted with kids hooning along on battery power getting zero exercise benefit.



I get your frustration completely and I would feel the same. But to condemn a whole mode of transport because of the behaviour of a few youngsters doesn't make sense. It's like condemning all motorcyclists because a few kids ride illegal bikes round the housing estate. Personally, I love the feeling of busting a big hill on a conventional bike too, and enjoy the effort/reward thing more the fitter I get. But I still love my ebike for days when there is a lot of shopping, or I want to go a longer distance and the time is short. Horses for courses.

Also, not everybody wants to do strenuous exercise (and that is their choice), so the ebike still has massive potential for revolutionising short-distance/urban travel - it could be a literal car replacement for millions with the right support.


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## Lovacott (28 Sep 2020)

RichardB said:


> I get your frustration completely and I would feel the same. But to condemn a whole mode of transport because of the behaviour of a few youngsters doesn't make sense.



I am not condemning E Bikes, I just don't see the point of them (unless you can't ride a traditional bike for health reasons).

It's like going to a weight lifting session with a motor lifting 85% of the weight for you.


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## RichardB (28 Sep 2020)

Lovacott said:


> It's like going to a weight lifting session with a motor lifting 85% of the weight for you.



Nah, not buying that. With a weight lifting session, the only point is to lift weights. There is no other purpose. Having a motor to do half the work would, indeed, be pointless.

A cycle journey can have a multitude of purposes in addition to the fitness aspect. Visiting people, doing shopping, enjoying the outdoors, sightseeing, just whizzing along with the wind in your hair ... many reasons for a bike ride other than developing your quads and heart, good though that is.

As said above, I enjoy both. They are different, though similar, experiences. For most of my life I have had a car and a motorbike in the garage. Depending on the purpose of the journey, the weather and my mood, sometimes I would choose one and sometimes the other. I feel the same about having a road bike, an MTB and an ebike. All similar, all different enough to make it worth having all three.

I can see I won't convince you, so I will leave it there.


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## Lovacott (28 Sep 2020)

RichardB said:


> A cycle journey can have a multitude of purposes in addition to the fitness aspect. Visiting people, doing shopping, enjoying the outdoors, sightseeing, just whizzing along with the wind in your hair .



I have a motorbike for that.


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## Blue Hills (29 Sep 2020)

RichardB said:


> I get your frustration completely and I would feel the same. But to condemn a whole mode of transport because of the behaviour of a few youngsters doesn't make sense. It's like condemning all motorcyclists because a few kids ride illegal bikes round the housing estate. Personally, I love the feeling of busting a big hill on a conventional bike too, and enjoy the effort/reward thing more the fitter I get. But I still love my ebike for days when there is a lot of shopping, or I want to go a longer distance and the time is short. Horses for courses.
> 
> Also, not everybody wants to do strenuous exercise (and that is their choice), so the ebike still has massive potential for revolutionising short-distance/urban travel - it could be a literal car replacement for millions with the right support.


partial like - yes there is a very real potential for lots of cars to be dumped if folk can just free themselves. And more urban ebikes could also revolutionise many urban roads/change traffic management.

Out of interest, what's your ebike? (apologies if you have already said)


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## RichardB (29 Sep 2020)

Blue Hills said:


> Out of interest, what's your ebike? (apologies if you have already said)



It's a Wisper 905 Classic. Not very pretty, but effective. It's a genuine pedelec (assistance cuts out at 25kph, no power without pedalling, 250W max). It's had a hard life with me, but is holding up well. (Library image)


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