# Touring...or 'bikepacking'?



## Cathryn (6 Jan 2021)

This is a discussion that came out of my previous 'podcast' thread. I've noticed all the cool kids on Insta are talking about 'bikepacking' instead of 'touring' when they mean loading up their bikes and going on an overnight/longer trip. I'm intrigued.

Is it the same thing? Is it different? 

Is it an assumption that 'tourers' are predominantly older, less 'cool' and on more traditional bikes whereas 'bikepackers' are younger, hipper, riding gravel bikes and eschew panniers for some intriguing new rack-attaching bags? Is it an age thing? A kit thing? A bike thing? Or is it completely different?

I say this as a 45-year-old woman who is very content to call herself a 'tourer'*

* based on previous life before children/in my heart/on the numerous spreadsheets I've planned trips on since Lockdown 1.0


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

Blimey, this could be a can of worms 

I’m guilty of having a bike classed as a gravel bike that I load with frame bags, seat and handlebar bags. I would say that when bikepacking, it’s about a fun day out a roughing it a little, for an overnight or two in a bivvi and a tarp type set up, maybe more off road

I’m also guilty of having a tourer that has had panniers etc, loaded with more clothes, a full stove and a tent, more of a holiday than a night or two out and usually on a smoother surface.

I am also over 50 😩 so definitely not on trend 😂

there will be more people along with differing opinions but it’ll be fun.
Good thread hopefully


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## mudsticks (6 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> This is a discussion that came out of my previous 'podcast' thread. I've noticed all the cool kids on Insta are talking about 'bikepacking' instead of 'touring' when they mean loading up their bikes and going on an overnight/longer trip. I'm intrigued.
> 
> Is it the same thing? Is it different?
> 
> ...



i was quite innocently cycle touring - and camping (mostly wildly) along the way - 

- also as a forty something woman out on the west coast of Scotland, a little while back.

I'd set off as a 'touring cyclist' - _in my mind_ at least.

But somewhere along the way - a bearded gentleman on a gravel bike appraised my luggage clad bicycle and uttered the immortal words 

" I like your rig"

It was at that point that i may have been given the nod to join the bikepacking club - 

But i haven't _actually_ filled in the membership forms yet


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> i was quite innocently cycle touring - and camping (mostly wildly) along the way -
> 
> - also as a forty something woman out on the west coast of Scotland, a little while back.
> 
> ...



are you sure it was your bike he was referring to 😂


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## mudsticks (6 Jan 2021)

uphillstruggler said:


> are you sure it was your bike he was referring to 😂



_Pretty_ certain ..

Although, as we're _so often_ reminded - size isn't everything ...


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> _Pretty_ certain ..
> 
> Although, as we're _so often_ reminded - size isn't everything ...



thank goodness, I can only get 44mm tyres on mine


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## Cathryn (6 Jan 2021)

uphillstruggler said:


> I’m guilty of having a bike classed as a gravel bike that I load with frame bags, seat and handlebar bags. I would say that when bikepacking, it’s about a fun day out a roughing it a little, for an overnight or two in a bivvi and a tarp type set up, maybe more off road



So it could be a LENGTH thing? 

(Length OF TIME, obvs)


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## Eric Olthwaite (6 Jan 2021)

I went to "discos"
My children go to "clubs"

It's all good


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> So it could be a LENGTH thing?
> 
> (Length OF TIME, obvs)






Cathryn said:


> So it could be a LENGTH thing?
> 
> (Length OF TIME, obvs)



maybe length and technique (riding obvs)


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## Oldhippy (6 Jan 2021)

I am happy with my panniers and tourer.


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## Cathryn (6 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I am happy with my panniers and tourer.



Me too - my Thorn and Ortleibs make me VERY happy. I'm just curious.


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## mudsticks (6 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> So it could be a LENGTH thing?
> 
> (Length OF TIME, obvs)



i think, its like all of these things ..

If you have to _ask_ if you're doing the 'cooler' thing ...

Then the answer is most likely "N_o" _


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

Another term is a micro adventure, apparently that’s another trendy term that I’m too old to use


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## Oldhippy (6 Jan 2021)

Carridice front and back and a bulletproof Rayleigh Royal much updated through the years. I do currently have a hankering to get it powder coated in black.


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## Oldhippy (6 Jan 2021)

A micro adventure! A day out in my world.


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## Cathryn (6 Jan 2021)

I rather like 'Microadventure'. Alastair Humphreys wrote a fab book about it with great ideas. I did one once - when we lived in California, I picked my son up from school with the car all packed up, drove to the coast, we camped overnight, got up at 6, packed up and were back at school (and work) at 8.30. It was magic.


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> I rather like 'Microadventure'. Alastair Humphreys wrote a fab book about it with great ideas. I did one once - when we lived in California, I picked my son up from school with the car all packed up, drove to the coast, we camped overnight, got up at 6, packed up and were back at school (and work) at 8.30. It was magic.



i may be having a micro adventure this weekend, in the garden in my hammock with tarp and bivvi


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## mudsticks (6 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> A micro adventure! A day out in my world.



Its my understanding that a micro adventure is supposed to involve staying out for one night at least - but you don't have to go too far.

In present times of course it feels like an adventure just leaving the valley.

How our worlds have shrunk


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## Oldhippy (6 Jan 2021)

I did find it funny the other day, me panniers full of shopping, no helmet and my usual clothes overtaking uphill a young bloke on an all dancing and singing huge cogged thingy in the safety gear getting off to walk. Young people these days no gumption.


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## mudsticks (6 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> I rather like 'Microadventure'. Alastair Humphreys wrote a fab book about it with great ideas. I did one once - when we lived in California, I picked my son up from school with the car all packed up, drove to the coast, we camped overnight, got up at 6, packed up and were back at school (and work) at 8.30. It was magic.



Yes in 'normal' times we can get to the beach for a bivvy and a fire after work, and then be back on the farm by next morning in time to start early again next day..

Them were the days, hopefully not too long now..


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## uphillstruggler (6 Jan 2021)

My last ‘micro adventure’ set up


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## MichaelW2 (6 Jan 2021)

I used to bikepack before I could afford proper panniers, tent and stuff.


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## Jon62 (6 Jan 2021)

Bike packing always looks like bit of a bodge job to me, all those things strapped where they should not be.


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## currystomper (6 Jan 2021)

It seems that there is another name for the micro adventure: the so called over night, but under 24 hour = u24o, hmmm! I go to a camp site in an orchard that is about 30 miles away, its great in May. Leave after work, cycle to the the camp site surrounded by apple blossom and the cycle home, so I guess this is an u24o. But I wouldn't worry about the name, bike packing is just light weight camping in a new marketable form, some of the ideas are good and some are err not so good. The light weight and aero design mean it's nicer in windy conditions. I still used a rack with a bag and small fold out panniers. I use a roll on the handle bars, but that's a old idea. The main thing is to get out with whatever gear you have and enjoy. A short over night trip is a good way to start, even 5 miles to a camp site via a chippy can be a great head clearer!


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## mjr (6 Jan 2021)

"Bikepacking" is a motoring lobby attempt to rename cycle touring into something that reminds people of a derogatory term for homosexuals.


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## chriswoody (6 Jan 2021)

Bike packing is just one form of touring. By eschewing panniers and racks you can keep your kit and bike really lightweight. In turn the lighter weight allows more adventurous and off road touring to be undertaken or at least that's the origins of the idea and name.

Personally, I'm a massive fan of this approach, it's allowed me to ride off road in some amazing places that would have been too much with a more traditional set up.


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2021)

uphillstruggler said:


> Another term is a micro adventure, apparently that’s another trendy term that I’m too old to use



A single day or night trip!


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## Ming the Merciless (6 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> Bike packing is just one form of touring. By eschewing panniers and racks you can keep your kit and bike really lightweight. In turn the lighter weight allows more adventurous and off road touring to be undertaken or at least that's the origins of the idea and name.
> 
> Personally, I'm a massive fan of this approach, it's allowed me to ride off road in some amazing places that would have been too much with a more traditional set up.
> 
> View attachment 567626



How much does all that weigh? Doesn’t look very lightweight.


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## CanucksTraveller (6 Jan 2021)

Excellent question, and an excellent thread idea! 

I must be firmly in "tourer" territory now I think, I'm late 40s, steel bike, Ortliebs, and a bar bag. 






For what it's worth, I'm not convinced bikepacking is always all that much lighter than "touring" setup, I suspect the same weight is just jammed elsewhere on the bike in more, smaller bags. My bike handles just fine off road. 

I think bikepacking is possibly more of a mindset rather than anything else, the VW camper van and surfboard versus the proper motorhome maybe? Not sure. What's sure is that it's a very similar spirit.


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## mudsticks (6 Jan 2021)

CanucksTraveller said:


> Excellent question, and an excellent thread idea!
> 
> I must be firmly in "tourer" territory now I think, I'm late 40s, steel bike, Ortliebs, and a bar bag.
> 
> ...



I think it really depends doesn't it. 

I
The total surface area of 'baggage material' and associated strappage, of all the smaller bags don't weigh nothing. 

And it's a mindset in terms of what you take / feels necessary. 

I take (pretty much) the same gear for bike packing,, as for backpacking. 

Verging towards the gram weenie.. Without being stupid light. 

So even with tent sb, mat, stove, clothes food, etc etc, it doesn't add up to much more than 12 kg base weight. 

But I still tend to use skinny panniers, and have the tent on back rack. 

Rather than use 'strap ons'.. 

Partly because I know I'd get annoyed with all the fiddling about with the buckles and velcro attachments etc. 

Especially when I forget whats in which bag. 

Thing is - in today's wonderful modern world, you can mix and match, pick and choose, do a bit of both... 


Subvert the genre even. 

Post punk packing...


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## lane (6 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> So it could be a LENGTH thing?
> 
> (Length OF TIME, obvs)



I don't think so. Ultra endurance races would, I think, be viewed more bike packing than touring but is long (obviously). I think a lot of bike packing is short because people fit it in around busy lives, but doesn't have to be defined in that way.

Edit - great thread btw


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## lane (6 Jan 2021)

uphillstruggler said:


> Another term is a micro adventure, apparently that’s another trendy term that I’m too old to use



Think that's what I would have called a weekend away.


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## TheDoctor (7 Jan 2021)

I've toured with al sorts of set-ups. A rucksack bungied onto a rack on my first bike, a saddlebag on my Carbon Uberbike, a T-Bag on my Brompton, or a single pannier on my singlespeed. If what you want to do works for you, then it's right.
Unless it's riding from Carlisle to Newcastle on a Brompton, which I would not recommend. I was so tired I couldn't finish the second pint. Or the chocolate fudge cake, which is as close as I get to an existential crisis.


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

lane said:


> Think that's what I would have called a weekend away.



Yebbut what if you go on a Wednesday


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## Cathryn (7 Jan 2021)

I did some googling (in between watching the dramas in DC) and found this - some interesting points to think about. 

https://www.cyclingabout.com/touring-vs-bikepacking-bikes-actual-differences/

(Off to school now - looking forward to seeing people's thoughts later)


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## chriswoody (7 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> How much does all that weigh? Doesn’t look very lightweight.



I was waiting for someone to make that comment!  I had packed the rear bag quite badly that day and with the helmet perched on top, it does look unwieldy. I never weigh my kit, but with water and stove fuel included I would guess at about eight kilos. The problem is with it all spread out across the bike, it does look heavy, but trust me it's far from it.

Weight is a big consideration, looking at a traditional setup versus softbags some typical figures taken from another website:
Tubus Logo Rear Rack: 730 g
Tubus Tara Front Rack: 311 g
Ortlieb Back Roller Plus (pair): 70L 1680 g
Ortlieb Sport Roller (pair): 25L / 1590 g

So nearly 5 kg, before you have even started, my Topeak bags are:

Frontroller 8L 325g
Backroller 15L 565g
Midloader 6L 337g
Fuel Tank 0.75L 169g

So thats an all up weight of just under 1.4 kg before I've even started. Then I only have 30L of storage compared to 90L in a traditional setup, so I will invariably be much lighter, it just looks more cumbersome!

I know the invariable comeback is why? for me though the journey is important and by having a really light bike I was able to tackle some really technical and steep off-road terrain in Slovenia this summer. One day just South of Bovec, I met some traditional bike tourists on the road, then after a few kilometres I turned off and climbed to the top of Mount Stol, whilst they went the longer road route around the base. Both of us undoubtedly had a great time in our own respective ways, but bike choice and packing were certainly key in our route decisions. In all I travelled 420km and over 8000m of ascent in those 5 days, much of it on technical off-road and single track, not something I could have easily done on a heavier bike.

At the end of the day though, it's all bike touring, it's just using the term bikepacking is more descriptive of the actual touring style undertaken.


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## currystomper (7 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> I did some googling (in between watching the dramas in DC) and found this - some interesting points to think about.
> 
> https://www.cyclingabout.com/touring-vs-bikepacking-bikes-actual-differences/
> 
> (Off to school now - looking forward to seeing people's thoughts later)


Yup that pretty good, I would mention that you don't need a special bike either for most touring/bike packing cycles, but the more or further you go then they probably optimise the ride.

I converted a old mountain bike into a gravel/bike packing bike it's been great and a gravel bike is on my long term wish list. Also I think they make good sense as general first bikes as the cover a lot of types of cycling


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## chriswoody (7 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> I did some googling (in between watching the dramas in DC) and found this - some interesting points to think about.
> 
> https://www.cyclingabout.com/touring-vs-bikepacking-bikes-actual-differences/
> 
> (Off to school now - looking forward to seeing people's thoughts later)



Intriguing article, however, it seems to believe that it's the bike that makes it bikepacking, rather than the style of packing, which as @currystomper mentions, you don't need to do. When I first dipped my toes into this nefarious world I actually used my old Dawes Super Galaxy with a bunch of dry-bags strapped to it. I could just have easily used the old Ortleibs, however, with the route primarily off-road and some steep technical terrain in the mix, I took the option of a lighter load. My Current bike is the Kona Sutra LTD, which uses the same frame as the Kona Sutra touring bike. So I could easily bolt a rack to it and go the more traditional route instead if I so wanted. Fundamentally the premise of the article is wrong and not really addressing what bikepacking is, a much better perspective is here: 

https://bikepacking.com/gear/bikepacking-bags/panniers-vs-bikepacking-bags/


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## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> A micro adventure! A day out in my world.


I think a microadventure has to include a night away.
edit - said upthread as well I think.


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## mjr (7 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> So thats an all up weight of just under 1.4 kg before I've even started. Then I only have 30L of storage compared to 90L in a traditional setup, so I will invariably be much lighter, it just looks more cumbersome!


It not only looks more cumbersome, it is more cumbersome.

Rather than create a false dilemma by using Ortleib, you could use lighterweight bags on a rack. A transverse canvas saddlebag is 12 litres and 400g. A compression tail roll is 11 litres and 220g and a second could be stacked on if needed, and with a 750g rear rack, that's 34 litres for 1.6kg of bag and much more solidly fixed to the bike than most wagglers, plus easier to get stuff out of the saddlebag during the day, although personally, I'd go for a bar bag instead of the second roll, but that will be slightly smaller, slightly heavier and slightly easier access.


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## chriswoody (7 Jan 2021)

You could indeed use a rack, and there are some very lightweight racks out there that would do what you say and some folk do use them for bike packing, but they won't fit every bike though. 

However, having used this set up extensively this year I can tell you it is not cumbersome nor waggly. The stuff I need during the day is near to hand in the frame bag and all the bags stay on the bike during the whole trip, they just open like conventional roll top panniers to access the contents.


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

mjr said:


> It not only looks more cumbersome, it is more cumbersome.
> 
> Rather than create a false dilemma by using Ortleib, you could use lighterweight bags on a rack. A transverse canvas saddlebag is 12 litres and 400g. A compression tail roll is 11 litres and 220g and a second could be stacked on if needed, and with a 750g rear rack, that's 34 litres for 1.6kg of bag and much more solidly fixed to the bike than most wagglers, plus easier to get stuff out of the saddlebag during the day, although personally, I'd go for a bar bag instead of the second roll, but that will be slightly smaller, slightly heavier and slightly easier access.



Sounds a bit like my set up..
Sometimes.

Of course this whole debate is really just set up to play on our uncertainties, and encourage us to rethink our current practices.
Not necessarily a bad thing.

Nothing wrong with innovation and creative developments.

I for one am very happy with all the progress made in lightweight gear.

I quite regularly update things like sleeping mats for extra lightness with comfort, or invest in a new sleeping bags, if its warmer _and lighter. _

And am interested in anything that can make my trips, more comfortable, without adding weight - or even subtract it.

But ultimately its more important that you get out with whatever you do have, give it a go - that's the only way to find out what suits.

The investment can come later, once you've decided what's important to you.

We can call ourselves whatever we like


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## lane (7 Jan 2021)

My understanding has been that bike packing has two main claimed advantages, the bags themselves are lighter and the set up is more aerodynamic. I suspect there is something in this because it is the set up that top and very experienced ultra endurance racers use, so I suspect it is a faster set up. In my opinion it looks cooler as well. But I still use a traditional pannier set up myself because the bike packing set up looks a right faff, I would think it must take longer to get things out and put them away. So far my touring has been quite limited in duration (3 or 4 days) due to family and work commitments. I do credit card B&B stuff, with a pair of front roller Ortliebs on the back. I have quite a minimalist lightweight rack. I could be a bit more aero and lighter I expect, but since I am touring and not racing it really doesn't matter. 

My panniers keep stuff dry and i can remove them form the bike to take into a B&B easily and quickly.

Here is a photo of my and my friends bikes on a touring trip.


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## simongt (7 Jan 2021)

Two panniers vs. multi bikebags. Now which bag did I put my wallet / multitool / keys / phone in - ?


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## dodgy (7 Jan 2021)

No one talks about 'credit card touring' anymore. Eventually we'll ditch the latest cool word and go back to touring again.


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## Zanelad (7 Jan 2021)

A credit card, toothbrush (cut down, ovs) and wash your kit in the sink each night Jack Reacher style. What more do you need? 

Sorry dodgy, I must have been typing at the same time as you......


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## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

We had a related thread back in the summer. Happy to stand by what I wrote there:


matticus said:


> What do I think? Touring has had a big boost in popularity. The trend was led by the Ultra-racing crowd (e.g. Mike Hall RIP) - these folks adopted very light/flimsy bags (which makes some sense), and aero setups (which makes sense if you plan to average 18mph+ and you have a time limit or are racing).
> 
> Because ultra-racing is considered cooler than mere touring, the term "bike-packing" has been adopted by those wanting to tour and be cool. They tend to use the same style of luggage as the ultra-racers - just in case anyone accuses them of touring,


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## chriswoody (7 Jan 2021)

This theme of cumbersome and unwieldy seems to be coming through a lot. Let me give you an example of my latest overnighter the other week. The bike looked like this:







So when I arrived at the site, I unclipped two clips to release the red drybag which had my down jacket in. Then two more buckles and my front drybag drops out. In here was the tent, sleeping mat and inflatable pillow all rolled up tightly. Once all that was up, I then unclipped two more buckles in the rear pack and unrolled the end to reveal my sleeping bag, leaving the empty bag attached to my seatpost/saddle. Then I unzipped my middle bag to take out my pan/cooker/gas and popped a coffee on. 

I really don't consider any of the above to be any more of a faff than a traditional set up.

As for the wanting to be cool moniker, please give it a rest. I'm not trying to be cool, I just want to tour off-road in more remote terrain and this set up is much more suited to that approach than using racks and panniers. Yes it is touring, nobody is saying otherwise, but Bikepacking is just a more accurate way to describe it, because it's a combination of lightweight backpacking and bike touring.


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## lane (7 Jan 2021)

dodgy said:


> No one talks about 'credit card touring' anymore. Eventually we'll ditch the latest cool word and go back to touring again.



I just did, a couple of posts before!


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## dodgy (7 Jan 2021)

lane said:


> I just did, a couple of posts before!



I mean in the general sense, the various blogs, magazine articles and forum posts have moved onto bikepacking as it seems new, even though it isn't really. About 10 years ago you couldn't move for credit card touring articles.


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## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

I worry about older cyclists staying flexible: well the good news is, their hips/pelvis area should stay trim if they're swinging a leg over these bags twice a day:


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## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

dodgy said:


> I mean in the general sense, the various blogs, magazine articles and forum posts have moved onto bikepacking as it seems new, even though it isn't really. About 10 years ago you couldn't move for credit card touring articles.


Indeed. 
Marketing is about selling stuff. Luggage, new bikes, new clothing (yes - gravel shorts, gravel shoes etc!). So of course the media is full of this new sexy term. It was bound to knock "credit card touring" for six.

[Plus tbf credit-card doesn't cover camping out, so it was bound to be left out of this latest surge. Sorry![


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## chriswoody (7 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> I worry about older cyclists staying flexible: well the good news is, their hips/pelvis area should stay trim if they're swinging a leg over these bags twice a day:
> View attachment 567674



You know maybe you should stop being so narrow minded and talking crap and actually try things out rather than denigrating those of us who actually are open minded to give things a go.


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## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

Chris - get a sense of humour. You've gone completely off the rails with that post! 

(It's not even related to what I actually wrote - you've just let yourself be triggered.)


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Indeed.
> Marketing is about selling stuff. Luggage, new bikes, new clothing (yes - gravel shorts, gravel shoes etc!). So of course the media is full of this new sexy term. It was bound to knock "credit card touring" for six.
> 
> [Plus tbf credit-card doesn't cover camping out, so it was bound to be left out of this latest surge. Sorry![



So it is _all_ 'credit card' touring in a sense.

Only you just need to use that card upfront a bit more.

I'm probs a hybrid of all three, after a few nights out camping in the wilds, I'm more than happy to check book into some accomodation using my 'credi' (debit) card, and the power of t'internet. 

Booking. com has revolutionised my trips, I can turn up wherever, and if its pouring with rain, and I haven't had a shower for a few days, rather than hunker down in the woods being dripped on I can check myself into somewhere warm and dry..

-and wash and dry all my stuff in the en-suite..


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## lane (7 Jan 2021)

Camping hasn't really appealed to me, partly carrying extra weight and partly B&B whatever just seems like it is more comfortable. Also because my trips are quite limited the up front cost isn't really worth it. However I am aware that when I retire, if i want to do a fair bit more touring (which I do) it will probably need to be camping purely for financial reasons. 

I did do a little bit of cycle camping and backpacking in my teens and was fine with it then.


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## Oldhippy (7 Jan 2021)

Being a complete tart I have to take everything including the kitchen sink.


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## palinurus (7 Jan 2021)

I came across the term bikepacking in the early 80s when I checked this out of the school library! (term was used to describe pannier-based loaded touring). Now I associate the term with more lightweight -often wild- touring using seatpost/ frame bags.


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## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

@palinurus I think you've found the Rosetta Stone of this whole debate. Good work!


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## palinurus (7 Jan 2021)

palinurus said:


> I came across the term bikepacking in the early 80s when I checked this out of the school library! (term was used to describe pannier-based loaded touring). Now I associate the term with more lightweight -often wild- touring using seatpost/ frame bags.



Looking at that image I wish I out bikepacking now (maybe on a Jack Taylor instead of a Surly)


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Being a complete tart I have to take everything including the kitchen sink.



Being a bit of a lightweight - and the total opposite of 'domestic goddess' i prefer not to have to lug it all up all the hills


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I was waiting for someone to make that comment!  I had packed the rear bag quite badly that day and with the helmet perched on top, it does look unwieldy. I never weigh my kit, but with water and stove fuel included I would guess at about eight kilos. The problem is with it all spread out across the bike, it does look heavy, but trust me it's far from it.
> 
> Weight is a big consideration, looking at a traditional setup versus softbags some typical figures taken from another website:
> Tubus Logo Rear Rack: 730 g
> ...



You are not comparing like with like though. If you want to compare weights then you need to look at same carrying capacity. So your backpacking setup is 30l. So that would be

Fly classic rear rack 420g
2 x Altura vortex ultra light panniers 15l each - 520g total weight.

So same capacity as your setup and weighing 940g
Your setup weight 1396g

So with a traditional setup, you can save 446g in weight. Plus it’s a much simpler, waterproof, and better looking setup. If you care about the latter.


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## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2021)

I should add that because of the rack , you can also strap your tent on top. Thus freeing up space in the panniers. So in effect you have more carrying capacity for much less weight.


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## lane (7 Jan 2021)

I replaced my maybe 30 year old Karymore panniers with waterproof Ortliebs after this trip


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## chriswoody (7 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> You are not comparing like with like though. If you want to compare weights then you need to look at same carrying capacity. So your backpacking setup is 30l. So that would be
> 
> Fly classic rear rack 420g
> 2 x Altura vortex ultra light panniers 15l each - 520g total weight.
> ...



What I was attempting to do was compare a traditional touring set up with a more typical bike-packing setup rather than try to find the most ultralight set up using panniers. 

It is a valid point point though about those panniers though, it is a very light set up and compares very favourably to a bag only approach. Though it won't work for all bike types, especially some mountain bikes. I personally still prefer to have bags myself and have enjoyed using them this year, finding them neither wobbly or a faff.


----------



## palinurus (7 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> @palinurus I think you've found the Rosetta Stone of this whole debate. Good work!



Presumably from 'backpacking', the meaning of which has drifted since this book was published (1978) (from walking journeys, carrying camping equipment to meaning international low-budget travel often mixing tourism and work)


----------



## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

For me, most of these posts have taken the rational approach; it's all cycle-touring, but various names have been hung on various branches. And most of the branches have a lot of overlap! (between their leaves?)

Going back to Cathryn's post that triggered this:


Cathryn said:


> I've started listening to the Explore editions of the Cycling Podcast and I'm really enjoying them. I loved the episode with Timmy Mallett...may bring some brightness to your lockdown.
> https://thecyclingpodcast.com/explore


Some will say that TCP's approach is extreme, but for me it's quite typical, and they are playing to the gallery. Look at the blurb:



> Explore launched as a series looking at the world of bikepacking, endurance and ultra-endurance riding in late 2018.
> 
> Hosted by Lionel Birnie and Hannah Troop, with regular contributions from former Team Sky and Katusha-Alpecin pro rider Ian Boswell, Explore will cover everything from the hardest of the hardcore to gravel racing to adventures that simply enable a rider to see the world on two wheels.


Notice anything about their vocabulary?

Then look at the last two episodes; about 2h40 in total. Not 1 mention of the banned words. Now that includes an hour on Timmy Mallett (well known Ultra-race hipster - not!) who rode unsupported, by e-bike, from Hampshire-ish through France, then the Camino route*. About 30-40 mile days I think. Mostly in paid-for accommodation. Stopping most days to look at and paint things.
How would _you_, dear reader, describe that style of travel? 




> *In 2018, he rode the pilgrimage route to Santiago de Compostela and he wrote about the very personal reason for making the trip in his book Utterly Brilliant, which is part travelogue, part memoir.


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

palinurus said:


> Presumably from 'backpacking', the meaning of which has drifted since this book was published (1978) (from walking journeys, carrying camping equipment to meaning international low-budget travel often mixing tourism and work)



Words eh??

i used to do a lot more 'backpacking' of the hitchhiking about all over - on a budget and camping out - but rarely walking more than 8km fully loaded.

Whereas now i do far more lightweight 'backpacking' mainly through mountainous areas of Europe for days on end carrying all camping gear and food.

Of course we have the Americanisms of thru-hiking, or multiday hiking coming into that sphere too.

And before long it will all change again...


----------



## raleighnut (7 Jan 2021)

3 'touring' bikes here, a light one (Raleigh Equipe) a medium one (Ridgeback Adventure) and a heavy one also used to pull a trailer (Raleigh Outlander rigid MTB)


----------



## lane (7 Jan 2021)

This happens to be my favorite cycling book. I think it probably tells you where I stand.


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

I'm a cross-dresser 

I suppose I'd be classed a tourist but I probably cover too many miles/day at too fast a pace, which could put me in the bikepacker category. Although I do stop to look at the view etc., it's more about the riding and the exploring/adventure of new roads than visiting the attractions along the way. I prefer panniers or a traditional saddlebag (depending on the length of the trip). I have tried modern saddle packs/bike packing kit but found it a pain to get in and out of when on the road - so if I choose to ride with the Alpkit I add a traditional bar bag for items I may require en-route putting my overnight kit in the saddlepack. I haven't done a gravel overnighter (such as the badger divide) yet but when I do (not if  ) I'll use a traditional saddlebag.


----------



## TheDoctor (7 Jan 2021)

Must say, my default touring kit now is a Brompton M12R and 1.5 kg of T-Bag. Gives me 30l of luggage, which is more than I need for ten days, plus stuff on the rear rack if I need it, and allows me to travel on Eurostar, busses and anything else that takes my fancy.
That 15l Topeak bag looks good though.


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Must say, my default touring kit now is a Brompton M12R and 1.5 kg of T-Bag. Gives me 30l of luggage, which is more than I need for ten days, plus stuff on the rear rack if I need it, and allows me to travel on Eurostar, busses and anything else that takes my fancy.
> That 15l Topeak bag looks good though.



Excuse my ignorance but what's a T-bag? (I know the beverage and sexual 'urban slang' meaning)


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

Thanks @Dogtrousers


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> I'm a cross-dresser
> 
> I suppose I'd be classed a tourist but I probably cover too many miles/day at too fast a pace, which could put me in the bikepacker category. Although I do stop to look at the view etc., it's more about the riding and the exploring/adventure of new roads than visiting the attractions along the way. I prefer panniers or a traditional saddlebag (depending on the length of the trip). I have tried modern saddle packs/bike packing kit but found it a pain to get in and out of when on the road - so if I choose the Alpkit I use a traditional bar bag for items I may require en-route putting my overnight kit in the saddlepack. I haven't done a gravel overnighter (such as the badger divide) yet but when I do (not if  ) I'll use a traditional saddlebag.
> 
> ...


Me too







Although it appears to have been a 'laundry' day


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Me too
> 
> 
> View attachment 567726
> ...



Uig, Skye?


----------



## Chap sur le velo (7 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Being a complete tart I have to take everything including the kitchen sink.


Ooooh now that I want to see!


----------



## Oldhippy (7 Jan 2021)

I have collapsible bowl, solar shower, two man tent for one and love army surplus. I probably make the lightweight lovers cringe. Do like to be comfy and the extra weight is worth it.


----------



## Moodyman (7 Jan 2021)

I always thought bikepacking was more geared towards off road.


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> Uig, Skye?




Uhuh.. Off to catch the ferry to my favouritist Scottish Island Harris.. 

No offence to erstwhile residents of Lewis you understand..


----------



## matticus (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> I'm a cross-dresser


Please stick to the topic.



> I haven't done a gravel overnighter (such as *the badger divide*) yet but when I do (not if  ) I'll use a traditional saddlebag.


ooh - wassat then? (name rings a bell ... )


----------



## oldwheels (7 Jan 2021)

Nobody seems to have mentioned trailers yet. I started off with just a large saddlebag and we toured for up to a couple of weeks at a time with minimal gear and sometimes used hostels but often just stopped wherever we could find shelter and firewood. After I got married we went to panniers which were ex army haversacks and went for weekends away and also some two week tours.
Latterly I used a large Columbus trailer but then went to a BoB which took too much stuff but was easier for packing and used it in the Outer Isles and Orkney as well as mainland Scotland.
Bikepacking is to my mind just an expensive way to carry whatever you need.


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

Moodyman said:


> I always thought bikepacking was more geared towards off road.



Yes I think it is a bit more.. 

Although we have to go on roads now and then to get to the off-road bits.


----------



## oldwheels (7 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Uhuh.. Off to catch the ferry to my favouritist Scottish Island Harris..
> 
> No offence to erstwhile residents of Lewis you understand..


To be pedantic Harris is not really an island being firmly attached to Lewis by a steep hill to discourage you from heading north.


----------



## raleighnut (7 Jan 2021)

oldwheels said:


> Nobody seems to have mentioned trailers yet. I started off with just a large saddlebag and we toured for up to a couple of weeks at a time with minimal gear and sometimes used hostels but often just stopped wherever we could find shelter and firewood. After I got married we went to panniers which were ex army haversacks and went for weekends away and also some two week tours.
> Latterly I used a large Columbus trailer but then went to a BoB which took too much stuff but was easier for packing and used it in the Outer Isles and Orkney as well as mainland Scotland.
> Bikepacking is to my mind just an expensive way to carry whatever you need.


Err I refer you to post #70



raleighnut said:


> 3 'touring' bikes here, a light one (Raleigh Equipe) a medium one (Ridgeback Adventure) and a heavy one also used to pull a trailer (Raleigh Outlander rigid MTB)


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

oldwheels said:


> To be pedantic Harris is not really an island being firmly attached to Lewis by a steep hill to discourage you from heading north.




.. Everytime.. 

I know cos my absolute favouritist part is to be found on the bit that probs should be called Lewis, if there was any sense in arbitrary lines drawn on a map..


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Must say, my default touring kit now is a Brompton M12R and 1.5 kg of T-Bag. Gives me 30l of luggage, which is more than I need for ten days, plus stuff on the rear rack if I need it, and allows me to travel on Eurostar, busses and anything else that takes my fancy.
> That 15l Topeak bag looks good though.


what bag do you put on the brommie's rear rack?
(I have a 5 speed brommie and also an old front touring bag - they may have changed then design - but never used it.


----------



## Blue Hills (7 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I have collapsible bowl, solar shower, two man tent for one and love army surplus. I probably make the lightweight lovers cringe. Do like to be comfy and the extra weight is worth it.


pic please of your spurning of minimalism.


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

oldwheels said:


> Nobody seems to have mentioned trailers yet. I started off with just a large saddlebag and we toured for up to a couple of weeks at a time with minimal gear and sometimes used hostels but often just stopped wherever we could find shelter and firewood. After I got married we went to panniers which were ex army haversacks and went for weekends away and also some two week tours.
> Latterly I used a large Columbus trailer but then went to a BoB which took too much stuff but was easier for packing and used it in the Outer Isles and Orkney as well as mainland Scotland.
> Bikepacking is to my mind just an expensive way to carry whatever you need.




I used to transport children, and work stuff in trailers. 

So not having one feels more like 'holidays' 


but I think it might be time to get an ebike and trailer for utility use.. 

Seen a few folks holidaying with dogs in bike trailers.. I guess the hounds enjoy it.


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> .. Everytime..
> 
> I know cos my absolute favouritist part is to be found on the bit that probs should be called Lewis, if there was any sense in arbitrary lines drawn on a map..



Which is your favouritist bit? - I lived/worked in Stornoway for 21 years (now in D&G)


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Please stick to the topic.
> 
> 
> ooh - wassat then? (name rings a bell ... )


Bikepacking The 321km Badger Divide | Inverness to G... (outdoorsmagic.com)


----------



## TheDoctor (7 Jan 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> what bag do you put on the brommie's rear rack?
> (I have a 5 speed brommie and also an old front touring bag - they may have changed then design - but never used it.


I've used a rackpack, but now I'll just occasionally bungee stuff on. If there's anything overhanging the rack I tend to catch my heels on it.
I would remove the rack, except that on the back end, everything seems to be bolted to everything else and I'd never get the mudguard sitting straight again / the stop disk in the right place / the rear brake centered or some other damn thing!


----------



## Cycleops (7 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> I worry about older cyclists staying flexible: well the good news is, their hips/pelvis area should stay trim if they're swinging a leg over these bags twice a day:


I can get my leg over quite well enough thank you.


----------



## Cycleops (7 Jan 2021)

With all this talk of 'bike packing' I suppose it's no use asking if anyone has a Dawes Galaxy?


----------



## DRM (7 Jan 2021)

Bike packing, touring, both are just another name for sticking your nose into someone else’s town/city/woods overnight or longer and going home again.


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## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> Which is your favouritist bit? - I lived/worked in Stornoway for 21 years (now in D&G)



Yes I remember you saying that about Lewis long time back.. 

But I don't want to say favouritist place, in public.. 

Just in case it becomes a site of pilgrimage


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> Which is your favouritist bit? - I lived/worked in Stornoway for 21 years (now in D&G)



Although I fancy a wee tour of D&G.. So when I come to pick yr brains about that.. I might let slip


----------



## Cathryn (7 Jan 2021)

This is a great thread, so many interesting perspectives. It's making me want to go touring SO badly!!!


----------



## nickyboy (7 Jan 2021)

Bikepacking has been a godsend to me and some friends who are hopefully doing LEJOG this year

We don't own bikes that would accommodate a traditional pannier touring setup. Bikepacking equipment allows us to carry enough stuff on our bikes for several days. The added benefit is that it's more aerodynamic than panniers (in addition to also fitting on a bike which is probably a bit quicker than a traditional touring bike)

We are "touring" in that we are on a multiday adventure on our bikes. But bikepacking equipment has allowed it to happen. The fact we are not interested in camping means bikepacking gear will suffice for what we need to carry


----------



## Oldhippy (7 Jan 2021)

I will get around to laying the whole lot out around the trusty bike and taking pictures.


----------



## Cathryn (7 Jan 2021)

nickyboy said:


> (in addition to also fitting on a bike which is probably a bit quicker than a traditional touring bike)



Now, THIS bit interests me. It hadn't occurred to me that bike-packing kit would be an easy way to convert a road bike into a tourer (in some respects). Sounds obvious but I hadn't thought about that aspect of it.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Yebbut what if you go on a Wednesday



Wednesaway


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Booking. com has revolutionised my trips, I can turn up wherever, and if its pouring with rain, and I haven't had a shower for a few days, rather than hunker down in the woods being dripped on I can check myself into somewhere warm and dry..



Being able to book places that way mid tour is great isn’t it!


----------



## nickyboy (7 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> Now, THIS bit interests me. It hadn't occurred to me that bike-packing kit would be an easy way to convert a road bike into a tourer (in some respects). Sounds obvious but I hadn't thought about that aspect of it.


It's inevitably a compromise. It's hard to add much more than about 5-6kg of luggage using bikepacking equipment. So you're going to have to use B&Bs etc. By being fairly ruthless we have managed a practice pack for 5 nights (we are going home half way through a 10 day LEJOG) and this allows us to use our regular road bikes.


----------



## oldworld (7 Jan 2021)

During our lock down for 9 weeks in 2020 when we were banned from cycling I tortured myself by watch this guys travels.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqiYX6cqxQI9CqhH_kvHeOw.
He started in Alaska on a conventional touring bike with panniers but these days is on a fat bike bikepacking in South America.
If you watch his videos it's clear why for his type of exploring he's made the change.
I've seen most of his videos and what he puts himself and bikes through is incredible. 
If you do take a look start with him on his touring bike and you'll see why he's changed from touring bike to a bike packing machine.


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> Now, THIS bit interests me. It hadn't occurred to me that bike-packing kit would be an easy way to convert a road bike into a tourer (in some respects). Sounds obvious but I hadn't thought about that aspect of it.



For credit card tours there's also the option of the traditional saddlebag and barbag. Back in the 70s it was common to put a saddlebag on a road bike and head out on a hostelling weekend


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

oldworld said:


> During our lock down for 9 weeks in 2020 when we were banned from cycling I tortured myself by watch this guys travels.
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqiYX6cqxQI9CqhH_kvHeOw.
> He started in Alaska on a conventional touring bike with panniers but these days is on a fat bike bikepacking in South America.
> If you watch his videos it's clear why for his type of exploring he's made the change.
> ...



My brother-in-law 'tortures' me sending back pics of his long distance tours. He rode this from Vancouver to Mexico - mostly camping. He only has use of 1 arm, he shattered his brachial plexus in a motorbike accident years ago. Definitely a tourist. He takes his time and stops over places to absorb the culture (and recover strength in his good arm).


----------



## Cathryn (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> My brother-in-law handled this from Vancouver to Mexico - mostly camping. He only has use of 1 arm, he shattered his brachial plexus in a motorbike accident years ago. Definitely a tourist. He takes his time and stops over places to absorb the culture.
> 
> 
> View attachment 567771



Oh my word - I can barely indicate right!


----------



## hobo (7 Jan 2021)

My set up for
2 week off-road trip icamping n Australia


----------



## TheDoctor (7 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Wednesaway


Wednesaway wednesaway wednesaway wednesaway wednesaway wednesaway wednesaway 
In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the cyclist sleeps tonight...
(gets coat)


----------



## TheDoctor (7 Jan 2021)

Cycleops said:


> With all this talk of 'bike packing' I suppose it's no use asking if anyone has a Dawes Galaxy?


Paul Donahue handbuilt 531st, which is pretty close. My aim is to get it powder coated (possibly in celeste) 
and build it up in a retro style. Moustache bars and downtube levers, all the old-skool stuff. Except that means I'll have to fight with cantilever brakes. Again...



nickyboy said:


> ...in addition to also fitting on a bike which is probably a bit quicker than a traditional touring bike...


That. I did a few overnight tours on my carbon road bike, but a Topeak Backloader would have been a lot better than a Carradice Barley. And looked nowhere near as ridiculous.


----------



## uphillstruggler (7 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> Bikepacking The 321km Badger Divide | Inverness to G... (outdoorsmagic.com)



that looks interesting

I’m due on the Caledonian sleeper to Inverness to ride the Caledonian canal but that looks like a good addition


----------



## FaustoCoppi (7 Jan 2021)

Cyclo Camping...


----------



## FaustoCoppi (7 Jan 2021)




----------



## Oldhippy (7 Jan 2021)

I have those panniers.


----------



## Baldy (7 Jan 2021)

Well I have a touring bike with racks for four panniers.



But I mostly just use it like this.



I've also a Mountain bike.



Sometimes I mix up the bags just to be different.




But as I'm over sixth I can't be a Bikepacker as I'm no longer a "Real Rad Dude" what ever they are.


----------



## oldwheels (7 Jan 2021)

Waiting on the ferry at Uig with BoB.


----------



## oldwheels (7 Jan 2021)

raleighnut said:


> Err I refer you to post #70


Sorry speedreading is not a good idea sometimes.


----------



## FaustoCoppi (7 Jan 2021)

Fixed base day tripping. No more airplane rides for us anymore 😕


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2021)

FaustoCoppi said:


> View attachment 567792
> 
> 
> View attachment 567792



Sponsored by Carradice 😀


----------



## PaulSB (7 Jan 2021)

oldwheels said:


> To be pedantic Harris is not really an island being firmly attached to Lewis by a steep hill to discourage you from heading north.


That's a great climb.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (7 Jan 2021)

As to aero dynamics no more than 9 mins difference over 100km. Hardly worth worrying about on a road tour. In a race, fair enough.


----------



## PaulSB (7 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> Now, THIS bit interests me. It hadn't occurred to me that bike-packing kit would be an easy way to convert a road bike into a tourer (in some respects). Sounds obvious but I hadn't thought about that aspect of it.


I'm firmly in the credit card touring camp. Until Covid-19 struck myself and a buddy had a plan to ride to Nice for the start of the TdF. A three week trip.

I would have ridden my summer bike with a Restrap bag and a bar bag. Nothing else needed.


----------



## Juan Kog (7 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> I'm firmly in the credit card touring camp. Until Covid-19 struck myself and a buddy had a plan to ride to Nice for the start of the TdF. A three week trip.
> 
> I would have ridden my summer bike with a Restrap bag and a bar bag. Nothing else needed.


PaulSB you’re a mature gentleman velonaut . Bike packing NO. A Dawes Galaxy or Claud Butler Dalesman loaded with Carradice is more appropriate.


----------



## PaulSB (7 Jan 2021)

I find this a fascinating thread. I'm not sure I can aid the debate on a definition but it has lead me to think about how adaptable modern bikes can be.

I had to write off my tourer in January 2020. A month back I picked up my new bike, a Kinesis Tripster ATR V3. The way this bike is set up it ticks several boxes:

Winter bike
Gravel bike
Bike packing
Touring
Thinking it over I feel the difference in definition is simply the amount of baggage one chooses to carry. Bike packing is the minimalist credit card approach, I tend towards this, while a touring set up means carrying camping equipment etc.

Going back to my earlier comment about riding to Nice. I overlooked the need to carry a lot of water. This might have swung me to using panniers to carry a meal and water, both of which have proved important in the past.

The decision really depends on where one is riding.


----------



## PaulSB (7 Jan 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> PaulSB you’re a mature gentleman velonaut . Bike packing NO. A Dawes Galaxy or Claud Butler Dalesman loaded with Carradice is more appropriate.


But I can think young 😄😄😄


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

FaustoCoppi said:


> Fixed base day tripping. No more airplane rides for us anymore 😕
> View attachment 567801



Where is this please.. 
Pretty sure not Somerset.. 



Ming the Merciless said:


> As to aero dynamics no more than 9 mins difference over 100km. Hardly worth worrying about on a road tour. In a race, fair enough.



Expect yr right.. 
But hey it looks cool right?? 



PaulSB said:


> I find this a fascinating thread. I'm not sure I can aid the debate on a definition but it has lead me to think about how adaptable modern bikes can be.
> 
> I had to write off my tourer in January 2020. A month back I picked up my new bike, a Kinesis Tripster ATR V3. The way this bike is set up it ticks several boxes:
> 
> ...



I'd disagree that 'bikepacking' doesn't include camping. 

Some folks take superlight tarps and don't expect to be very well protected from the elements. 

Often no stove either.. How do they get going without tea?? 

Other of us take more kit.. 
But tending towards the lighter side. 

- basically all my lightweight hiking gear doubles up for bike packing/ touring. 

But the prime differentiation in many folks minds seems to be panniers versus strap ons.. 

I use a combination of the two. 
And ride a hybrid on tour, off and on road, for weeks at a time. 
So clearly very mixed up 

Maybe there needs to be a new 'third way' classification again - 

Ha - more marketing opportunities.


----------



## Moodyman (7 Jan 2021)

Cycleops said:


> With all this talk of 'bike packing' I suppose it's no use asking if anyone has a Dawes Galaxy?



I think anybody who hasn't got one, should buy one quick and hang it up in a dry room, and list it as a classic in about 20 years.


----------



## PaulSB (7 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Where is this please..
> Pretty sure not Somerset..
> 
> 
> ...


You should get in with a patent and copyright application ASAP.


----------



## iandg (7 Jan 2021)

Cycleops said:


> With all this talk of 'bike packing' I suppose it's no use asking if anyone has a Dawes Galaxy?



post #109 above


----------



## mudsticks (7 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> You should get in with a patent and copyright application ASAP.



Cyclecamping ? 

Bikebagging? 

Tentedtouring? 

I need a focus group...


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I will get around to laying the whole lot out around the trusty bike and taking pictures.


look forward to it. I may counter/challenge it with a horror pic of my own.


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> But I can think young 😄😄😄


well on the way to a unicycle I think.


----------



## nickyboy (8 Jan 2021)

This thread should be renamed

"Strap ons....yes or no for you?"

Suspect we may attract a fair bit of Google search traffic that way


----------



## PaulSB (8 Jan 2021)

nickyboy said:


> This thread should be renamed
> 
> "Strap ons....yes or no for you?"
> 
> Suspect we may attract a fair bit of Google search traffic that way


It would certainly bringing a new aspect to touring.......


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> I will get around to laying the whole lot out around the trusty bike and taking pictures.



For the full effect you have to do an ariel view and have yourself lying down by the bike too 


Ming the Merciless said:


> Being able to book places that way mid tour is great isn’t it!



It's ace, especially if you're abroad, and your language skills get exhausted quickly, going round looking for suitable places.

I've booked myself last minute online, into perfectly affordable accom , which turned out on arrival, to be pretty swank.

And been given a thoroughly warm welcome, despite dripping all over their highly polished floors.

I think hospitality, to the sodden cyclist is more instinctive in some countries. 



Baldy said:


> Well I have a touring bike with racks for four panniers.
> 
> View attachment 567795
> 
> ...



Oh you so can..
Or even dudess

Whether you want to be.

That's another matter 


nickyboy said:


> This thread should be renamed
> 
> "Strap ons....yes or no for you?"
> 
> Suspect we may attract a fair bit of Google search traffic that way



Would sir prefer the rack, or the strap- ons??

Or both...


----------



## bitsandbobs (8 Jan 2021)

An interesting set of pictures to blur the boundaries...

https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> An interesting set of pictures to blur the boundaries...
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/



Ace, followed, haven't come across that lot before.


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Ace, followed, haven't come across that lot before.


interesting pioneers, but I've been warned off their forum.


----------



## matticus (8 Jan 2021)

bitsandbobs said:


> An interesting set of pictures to blur the boundaries...
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/rsfarchive/


Is that the site with all the faked photos of cyclists crossing mountain passes 'n stuff, but without frame-bags, indexed gears or disc-brakes?

pffft - you can't fool me!


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Is that the site with all the faked photos of cyclists crossing mountain passes 'n stuff, but without frame-bags, indexed gears or disc-brakes?
> 
> pffft - you can't fool me!



They're fooling me 

Highly entertaining.. 

'specially the well pulled up red socks. 

I even vaguely remember hikers sporting such things, in a 'non ironic' fashion. 

I've got a lovely pair of 'darn tough' flowery knee length socks which do a similar job, of filling the gap. 

But in super modern merino 🌺🌸💮🏵️💮🌺🏵️


----------



## matticus (8 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> 'specially the well pulled up red socks.
> 
> I even vaguely remember hikers sporting such things, in a 'non ironic' fashion.


You might be aware that socks in the Pro-peleton were getting rapidly longer recently. UCI had to make a rule to limit them


----------



## chriswoody (8 Jan 2021)

The rough stuff fellowship are a really inspiring group, the original off-road pioneers. Here's a fantastic article of a meeting in 2019 recreating an iconic early ride using period bikes and clothing:

https://bikepacking.com/plog/wayfarer-centenary-weekend/

There was also a great article in the Guardian a short while back:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jun/13/break-the-cycle-britains-oldest-off-road-club

proving that not only is there nothing new in the world of cycling, but you really don't need all the modern technology if you have the attitude these folk had.


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> You might be aware that socks in the Pro-peleton were getting rapidly longer recently. UCI had to make a rule to limit them




Spoilsports...


----------



## Oldhippy (8 Jan 2021)

That is the greatest thing about a bicycle. Whilst new tech certainly makes things easier you can actually tour on anything. From old shoppers to the four grand carbon thingy.


----------



## matticus (8 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> The rough stuff fellowship are a really inspiring group, the original off-road pioneers. Here's a fantastic article of a meeting recreating an iconic early ride:
> 
> https://bikepacking.com/plog/wayfarer-centenary-weekend/


I was there!!!

It was organised by Jack Thurston (so I got the chance to meet him too  ) - see other threads his bikeshow.net podcasts.

Amazing weekend, best diverse mix of bikes+riders I have ever seen.


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> interesting pioneers, but I've been warned off their forum.



Oooh intrigue.. 

I'm desperate to join now. 

Just to find out what the deal is


----------



## FaustoCoppi (8 Jan 2021)

Mudsticks, perhaps we should start a ‘where in the world’ thread? 
FYI the picture was last February our annual winter week in the sun visiting the Canary Islands with either solos or tandem. This photo is on Fuerteventura, not really ‘sold’ as a cyclist destination, we’ve been twice to fuerteventura and it’s a brilliant place to ride. In fact all the islands are , all with quite different characteristics and topography.
Sadly not this year as sitting on an airplane with 200 other people is right off the agenda.
We might not even be doing our planned ferry to Santander then cycle camp home in May if the situation hasn’t improved, we had to cancel flight to Montpellier cycle back home in May last year... bl**dy virus 🦠 still, at least we can probably say it’s the longest lasting anything that has ever been ‘made in China’ 🇨🇳!


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

FaustoCoppi said:


> Mudsticks, perhaps we should start a ‘where in the world’ thread?
> FYI the picture was last February our annual winter week in the sun visiting the Canary Islands with either solos or tandem. This photo is on Fuerteventura, not really ‘sold’ as a cyclist destination, we’ve been twice to fuerteventura and it’s a brilliant place to ride. In fact all the islands are , all with quite different characteristics and topography.
> Sadly not this year as sitting on an airplane with 200 other people is right off the agenda.
> We might not even be doing our planned ferry to Santander then cycle camp home in May if the situation hasn’t improved, we had to cancel flight to Montpellier cycle back home in May last year... bl**dy virus 🦠 still, at least we can probably say it’s the longest lasting anything that has ever been ‘made in China’ 🇨🇳!



Yes maybe we should..

That looks great 

Did someone say 'ferry to Santander' 🙄






No need to fly, to get to fabulous touring destinations..

I must write up that trip sometime.

Met so many nice people along the way.


----------



## FaustoCoppi (8 Jan 2021)

It’s booked, we had to way earlier last year to ensure a cabin, whether or not we actually do it is now down to vaccine and how the dreaded B word pans out , travel insurance is going to play a big part too. We do have a couple of UK based fall back plans. But it’s France we really love cycling in, planning a route home on a day by day basis using old Michelin maps .


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

FaustoCoppi said:


> It’s booked, we had to way earlier last year to ensure a cabin, whether or not we actually do it is now down to vaccine and how the dreaded B word pans out , travel insurance is going to play a big part too. We do have a couple of UK based fall back plans. But it’s France we really love cycling in, planning a route home on a day by day basis using old Michelin maps .



Lovely.

But sad to have so many uncertainties.. Some built in. 

Others very much less so... 

Yes I booked my passage for October in early March.

I remember my son coming into the room while I was hovering over the 'pay and book ticket' button.

I was saying 'Shall I? Shan't I? ' to myself..

And he said - "Go on mum - just do it"

So I did

I might add, he had absolutely no idea what I was dithering over - but it's nice to have unconditionally encouraging people like that around isn't it??

Michelin paper maps are great, for planni g, and navigating..

Until it rains..


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Oooh intrigue..
> 
> I'm desperate to join now.
> 
> Just to find out what the deal is


Can't say.
Would be against the rules on here.
But nothing interesting.


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Can't say.
> Would be against the rules on here.
> But nothing interesting.



I meant overall really. 

I shall lurk on the 'gram for a little while first. 

Keep an eye out for nefarious business 

You can't be too careful nowadays..


----------



## oldwheels (8 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> That's a great climb.


In my case two foot gear engaged quite early on.


----------



## FaustoCoppi (8 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Sponsored by Carradice 😀


Simply the best, better than all the rest... 😄


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Jan 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> Can't say.
> Would be against the rules on here.
> But nothing interesting.



Did you say, you should stick to tarmac, then run away?


----------



## matticus (8 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Did you say, you should stick to tarmac, then run away?


He probably asked if there's a Strava group to join.


----------



## PaulSB (8 Jan 2021)

Blue Hills said:


> interesting pioneers, but I've been warned off their forum.


Really? I have a friend who rides with them from time to time. From what he says they're a harmless bunch.


----------



## Juan Kog (8 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> That is the greatest thing about a bicycle. Whilst new tech certainly makes things easier you can actually tour on anything. From old shoppers to the four grand carbon thingy.


No absolutely not true . You MUST have a Dawes Galaxy to cycle tour . Everyone knows that.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (8 Jan 2021)

PaulSB said:


> Really? I have a friend who rides with them from time to time. From what he says they're a harmless bunch.



I heard they were a bit rough 😬


----------



## FaustoCoppi (8 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Lovely.
> 
> But sad to have so many uncertainties.. Some built in.
> 
> ...


----------



## nickyboy (8 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> As to *aero dynamics* no more than 9 mins difference over 100km. Hardly worth worrying about on a road tour. In a race, *fair enough*.


Quality, almost missed that one


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

[/QUOTE
I need sheet 573 😉 

Sorry @FaustoCoppi 

i have it - but unwilling to relinquish - i'm not done with that part of the world just yet - not by a long shot ...


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I heard they were a bit rough 😬



Like the "Rough Ramblers" ? 

- Shameless 'Spaced' reference there..


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Did you say, you should stick to tarmac, then run away?


to clarify, I've never looked at it, let alone posted on it.
I was told certain things on a ride by a nice cchatter.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (8 Jan 2021)

I intensely dislike any topic that seeks to seperate or categorise people, especially in a cycling touring forum, however it's good to see this thread meandering along in a friendly tone. On other fora this exact topic has become as divisive as helmets or high viz discussions!

For anyone seeking inspiration not just for gear, but bikes as well, I recommend
https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=8000&v=4pL

Broken down by type (recumbents and trikes included! But no e-bikes - a long and painful story) and brand, as well as being international, it is a pictorial exploration of what other people use to tour.
If you come across an interesting picture it's easy enough to track down that person's adventures.

Years ago, for me, it was a great source of inspiration when the idea of packing up a bike and heading away was a terrifying (and incredibly expensive) prospect.😊


----------



## Cathryn (8 Jan 2021)

I LOVE Crazyguy - we have several trip reports on there and, every now and again, I go and reread them. Such a great place for inspiration.


----------



## Oldhippy (8 Jan 2021)

I do like his yearly 'Best touring bikes for xxx budget'.


----------



## Oldhippy (8 Jan 2021)

Slight divergence but still on topic. Cameras, with the advent of posh phones what people's thought on recording adventures? I don't do the social media thing and like to my photos get better over time but phone or proper camera? Which is best?


----------



## Blue Hills (8 Jan 2021)

Record less, experience more.
If you want to take pics, a cheap mobile is fine.


----------



## FaustoCoppi (8 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> [/QUOTE
> I need sheet 573 😉
> 
> Sorry @FaustoCoppi
> ...


I didn’t expect you to 😄 I’ll get one from a charity shop or t’internet!


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

I can't resist buying from Stanfords. 

You can probs buy cheaper, but they've got such a range, and you can look through all the places of fantasy that might be travelled through one day.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (8 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Slight divergence but still on topic. Cameras, with the advent of posh phones what people's thought on recording adventures? I don't do the social media thing and like to my photos get better over time but phone or proper camera? Which is best?


Probably worth starting a thread for this topic?
In any case, I use my cheapy Chinese Android phone and a simple point and click Lumix camera, chosen because it uses regular batteries.

I did invest in a bigger, better camera but between all the padding it needed and the sheer volume of it in my bar bag, I found it took up too much space and was really awkward to remove and repack, resulting in fewer shots. So I dropped it.

An advantage of using a phone for me is that the photos connect seamlessly with Strava/RWGPS for recording a day's ride.
Similarly, photos are automatically backed up to whatever online service I want, once I have wifi (not all cameras can do this).
Also, each photo is automatically "placed" by gps which is fantastic years after the time.
However, if you're using your phone a lot - navigation etc. then you may run into battery issues.
In bright sun the screen may be all but invisible.
The zoom function is probably not as good as a camera.
And a phone may not be as useful in foul weather.

Having said all that, I use the camera on my phone for all kinds of things other than taking "pictures" from photos of maps, wifi passwords, documents, passport, visas etc. Great to have on a phone. Once backed up, they will be accessible if I ever lose my phone.


----------



## mudsticks (8 Jan 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Slight divergence but still on topic. Cameras, with the advent of posh phones what people's thought on recording adventures? I don't do the social media thing and like to my photos get better over time but phone or proper camera? Which is best?



I mostly use my phone for pics when biking, I do have a nice compact digital too, but mostly just use that when hiking. 

I find it hard to stop so often to take photos when cycling anyway, so it doesn't seem worth the extra weight of a 'proper' camera. . 

I know some people use a go pro, but I'm not sure I can be bothered to learn how to use, one

Nor what I'd do with the film. 

I occasionally write up trips on my blog, but don't use u tube, or do strava.


----------



## HobbesOnTour (8 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> I LOVE Crazyguy - we have several trip reports on there and, every now and again, I go and reread them. Such a great place for inspiration.


Care to give us a linky?


----------



## Cathryn (8 Jan 2021)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Care to give us a linky?



This was our 'big' trip - we're starting to dream about recreating it in a few years when our son is a little older (he's just 11 now). 

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=2820&v=oa


----------



## iandg (9 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Oooh intrigue..
> 
> I'm desperate to join now.
> 
> Just to find out what the deal is



It's just a bit 'slow'


----------



## iandg (9 Jan 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> No absolutely not true . You MUST have a Dawes Galaxy to cycle tour . Everyone knows that.



Surly you mean a Long Haul Trucker?


----------



## chriswoody (9 Jan 2021)

I have a Dawes Super Galaxy, here it is on a mountain in bike packing, touring, whatever you want to call it mode!


----------



## Tripster (9 Jan 2021)

I like this thread. I always thought bikepacking was the yoof’s trendy name for ‘back-packing‘ on a bike. I now see it as touring but fast paced on any bike not necessarily a touring specific bike.
I recently bought a Mason and their ethos of ‘faster, Further’ supports this theory but they have bike packing bikes with multi mounting points, racks and designed for minimalist multi day rides. So their bikes are touring specific, but minimalist. 
Edit:Pic below is Josh Ibbett, Mason Sponsored cyclist with bikepacking ‘In-search-of’ bike


----------



## Cathryn (9 Jan 2021)

Tripster said:


> I like this thread. I always thought bikepacking was the yoof’s trendy name for ‘back-packing‘ on a bike. I now see it as touring but fast paced on any bike not necessarily a touring specific bike.
> I recently bought a Mason and their ethos of ‘faster, Further’ supports this theory but they have bike packing bikes with multi mounting points, racks and designed for minimalist multi day rides. So their bikes are touring specific, but minimalist. Pic below



May I congratulate you on the colour coordination!


----------



## Tripster (9 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> May I congratulate you on the colour coordination!


Ah, that’s not little old me...that’s Josh Ibbett the Transcontinental winner amongst other things and Mason sponsored cyclist


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> It's just a bit 'slow'



Ah that's OK, 

Speed isn't everything 

I'm highly inconsistent on the speed front anyway, some days it matters, others not so much. 

One reason why I'm probs best suited to going alone - 

That and the singing


----------



## iandg (9 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Ah that's OK,
> 
> Speed isn't everything
> 
> ...



Recent Topics


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> Recent Topics
> 
> View attachment 568018



Well they're probs all a bit busy out having adventures, aren't they.

I was only going to follow their IG account anyhow, not planning on trying to infiltrate 'the gang'


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Jan 2021)

lane said:


> I replaced my maybe 30 year old Karymore panniers with waterproof Ortliebs after this trip
> 
> View attachment 567683



I take it that’s a cycle track. We need more like that are joined up and go places


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Jan 2021)

I first heard bike packing in the way others have described it, back in the 80s.

Take back packing, as in carrying your home in a pack on your back on foot. Then instead of walking, use your bike and carry the pack on that. It was up in Scotland where bikes were being used to cut down the long walk on tracks from the road.

This was back in the 80s. Even without the packing bit, you’d often ride the bike along the land rover tracks. Hide the bike in some forestry somewhere or park it at a bothy. Go climb a mountain / hill on foot then return to your bike and ride back out or stop in the bothy overnight.

The use of bike packing to describe touring on road being a lot more recent.

Plus as the Rough Stuff Fellowship shows. People have been strapping stuff to their bikes for over 100 years and going on wild adventures. I remember reading the Rough Stuff Fellowship magazines at YHA back in the 80s as well.

What’s new is all the dedicated gear you can now get. But someone will probably point out that some of the stuff in the early 1900s was specially made!


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I first heard bike packing in the way others have described it, back in the 80s.
> 
> Take back packing, as in carrying your home in a pack on your back on foot. Then instead of walking use your bike and carry the pack on that. It was up in Scotland where bikes were being used to cut down the long walk on tracks from the road.
> 
> ...




Ah yes, that's the sort of thing I do.. 
Stash the bike and then go and do a hill, away from the bike sometimes. 

My alpkit 40 litre backpack is my tent bag on the rack in transit. But can hold enough for an overnight walking trip too. 


And then there's the hike n bike nutters, who instead of just leaving the bike hidden somewhere, will sling it over their shoulder and cart it up all sorts. 

I'd hasten to add - some of those 'nutters' are good freinds of mine


----------



## Fram (9 Jan 2021)

Bikepacking?


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Ah yes, that's the sort of thing I do..
> Stash the bike and then go and do a hill, away from the bike sometimes.
> 
> My alpkit 40 litre backpack is my tent bag on the rack in transit. But can hold enough for an overnight walking trip too.
> ...



It was a revelation when I first encountered it. It suddenly made the more remote routes accessible in a day. Plus it avoided a long trudge at the start or end of day to get to the more interesting mountain bits.


----------



## nickyboy (9 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I have a Dawes Super Galaxy, here it is on a mountain in bike packing, touring, whatever you want to call it mode!
> 
> View attachment 568014


That looks a lot like the setups we're going with on our regular road bikes for LEJOG this year. Nice to see you've eschewed mudguards to keep the clean lines of the bike 

I've spent about £60 on the bikepacking bags so it was a way cheaper option to try touring than getting a touring specific bike, panniers etc. If I love it I may invest at some point but we're just dipping our toes and we like our carbon road bikes too


----------



## Tripster (9 Jan 2021)

nickyboy said:


> That looks a lot like the setups we're going with on our regular road bikes for LEJOG this year. Nice to see you've eschewed mudguards to keep the clean lines of the bike
> 
> I've spent about £60 on the bikepacking bags so it was a way cheaper option to try touring than getting a touring specific bike, panniers etc. If I love it I may invest at some point but we're just dipping our toes and we like our carbon road bikes too


A future option  https://masoncycles.cc/shop/categories/bokeh-bikes


----------



## lane (9 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> I take it that’s a cycle track. We need more like that are joined up and go places



Agree but that's the Netherlands


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> It was a revelation when I first encountered it. It suddenly made the more remote routes accessible in a day. Plus it avoided a long trudge at the start or end of day to get to the more interesting mountain bits.



Yes I take your point, but as a sometimes slightly grumpy, solitude loving hill goer, it can be a bit annoying when there's cyclists riding all over our remote places. 

When we have slogged all day to get there on foot. 

There's so many more rideable land-rover tracks in the Highlands now. 

Grump over - I'm being a total hypocrite here anyway...


----------



## matticus (9 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I have a Dawes Super Galaxy, here it is on a mountain in bike packing, touring, whatever you want to call it mode!
> 
> View attachment 568014


Ah, the Brocken (did you see a spectre?)

Rode round the lower roads of the Harz mountains on my Germany trip. Route: View: https://ridewithgps.com/trips/82831
Quite welsh terrain, I thought in that section!

(https://audaxclub-sh.de/event/hbk_2022/ Audax: a form of touring not yet discussed here!)


----------



## chriswoody (9 Jan 2021)

I didn't see a spectre on this trip, the cloud was too dense sadly. I have seen one up on Crib Goch a few years ago though, quite a stunning sight. I documented my trip here:

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/bike-packing-up-the-highest-mountain-in-northern-germany.248443/

That looks like a nice loop through Northern Germany though.



nickyboy said:


> That looks a lot like the setups we're going with on our regular road bikes for LEJOG this year. Nice to see you've eschewed mudguards to keep the clean lines of the bike
> 
> I've spent about £60 on the bikepacking bags so it was a way cheaper option to try touring than getting a touring specific bike, panniers etc. If I love it I may invest at some point but we're just dipping our toes and we like our carbon road bikes too



That's what I find so great about these new bags that are being produced, they will allow folk to tour on bikes that are not traditional touring bikes. In the past it was all about hacking and bodging racks onto bikes with P-clips and the like, not impossible but no where as convenient as using dedicated bags. Modern compact frames also facilitate this bike packing approach much better than the old horizontal top tubed frames like my old Galaxy. You can see I've had to shoe-horn an old dry bag under the seat because there not enough seatpost showing to accommodate modern seatbags.

Like you, I was dipping my toes into the waters with the old Galaxy, that trip led me to go on and purchase my Kona, a dedicated off-road tourer and undertake more remote tours like my Slovenia trip.


----------



## matticus (9 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I didn't see a spectre on this trip, the cloud was too dense sadly. I have seen one up on Crib Goch a few years ago though, quite a stunning sight.


Wonderful 
(only ever seen partial glimpses myself. But I've seen a hell of a lot of cloud on mountain tops <hrumph>


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Jan 2021)

Always puzzles me riders who eschew mudguards on a multi day road tour. You will ride in the rain, you will get mud and water thrown onto your clothing. It will make you look like a badger. You will be forced to clean it that night or ride in dirty clothing next morning. Mudguards avoid all that faff.


----------



## Ming the Merciless (9 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Yes I take your point, but as a sometimes slightly grumpy, solitude loving hill goer, it can be a bit annoying when there's cyclists riding all over our remote places.
> 
> When we have slogged all day to get there on foot.
> 
> ...



That is just like the grump “I love being out in the mountains, and it’s great to see so many more out, but I wish they would all bugger off”


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> That is just like the grump “I love being out in the mountains, and it’s great to see so many more out, but I wish they would all bugger off”



Yes _exactly _like it - guilty as charged m'lud.

I'm always banging on about greater access, and inclusivity, bringing more people into 'The Great Outdors' because of all the benefits - ya de ta de ya..

But could they just please not be out n about at precisely the times when I am.. 

Such hypocrisy


----------



## matticus (9 Jan 2021)

The great Alfred Wainwright was much the same type of hypocrite


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> The great Alfred Wainwright was much the same type of hypocrite



I'm sure we would have been great chums... 

So long as we walked at least two miles apart from each other


----------



## chriswoody (9 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Always puzzles me riders who eschew mudguards on a multi day road tour. You will ride in the rain, you will get mud and water thrown onto your clothing. It will make you look like a badger. You will be forced to clean it that night or ride in dirty clothing next morning. Mudguards avoid all that faff.



I'm completely with you on that regard, however I need fat tires for the terrain I'm riding on and that sadly leaves no room for mudguards, or at least I've not found any that fit. The rear pack does offer quite a bit of protection though.


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I'm completely with you on that regard, however I need fat tires for the terrain I'm riding on and that sadly leaves no room for mudguards, or at least I've not found any that fit. The rear pack does offer quite a bit of protection though.



Same here all the stuff on the rear rack does the job. 

Plus I have a thin piece of plastic attached to top of rack which does for a lot of it. . 

Skinny crud catchers on front frame for catching worst of it from front wheel. 

Plus I can't go around looking all pristine anyhows. 

I've got a name to live up to


----------



## matticus (9 Jan 2021)

One useful aspect to the newly fashionable "gravel" bikes; they tend to have clearance (and sometimes even fittings) for big tyres AND guards.
(I say "big" - not crazy-big modern specialist MTB big, but pleeeeeenty big enough for mixed-surface adventures).

Of course they all come with discs, and increasingly with hidden cables. And have to be bought with decimal currency, I expect ... <grumble>


----------



## mudsticks (9 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> One useful aspect to the newly fashionable "gravel" bikes; they tend to have clearance (and sometimes even fittings) for big tyres AND guards.
> (I say "big" - not crazy-big modern specialist MTB big, but pleeeeeenty big enough for mixed-surface adventures).
> 
> Of course they all come with discs, and increasingly with hidden cables. And have to be bought with decimal currency, I expect ... <grumble>






Yeah right.. Hidden cables - I just don't trust em - no way of knowing what they're getting up to in there..

Have to say I quite like not having to change ground-down brake blocks every few hundred miles though..

No particular nostalgia for that job..


----------



## matticus (9 Jan 2021)

mudsticks said:


> Have to say I quite like not having to change ground-down brake blocks every few hundred miles though..


Well, now that someone has decided this is a Topic for Discussion :P ...

I've never worn blocks down quickly; in hindsight I'm convinced this is due to buying decent aftermarket blocks for all the bikes that actually get ridden far. And I have witnessed riders replacing disc pads numerous times on long rides, often leading to frustrated trips to bike shops and other shenanigans. So I do not think that is any clear advantage for d**c brakes. And before anyone mentions it - rims are a consumable, and they don't wear out very quickly!


----------



## FaustoCoppi (9 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I have a Dawes Super Galaxy, here it is on a mountain in bike packing, touring, whatever you want to call it mode!
> 
> View attachment 568014


Doesn’t look Brocken to me, looks perfectly serviceable 🤣


----------



## Brandane (9 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> This was our 'big' trip - we're starting to dream about recreating it in a few years when our son is a little older (he's just 11 now).
> 
> https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=2820&v=oa


Wow! That was a whole lot more interesting than the Arsenal v Newcastle game I was half watching until I clicked on your link .
It's got me thinking again of continental touring. Once this CV19 thing has lifted, and IF I can afford the post B-word travel insurance, I will have to get the ferry timetable and maps out 😄.


----------



## Cathryn (9 Jan 2021)

Brandane said:


> Wow! That was a whole lot more interesting than the Arsenal v Newcastle game I was half watching until I clicked on your link .
> It's got me thinking again of continental touring. Once this CV19 thing has lifted, and IF I can afford the post B-word travel insurance, I will have to get the ferry timetable and maps out 😄.


What a compliment, thank you! I skimmed through it last night and thought how young we were! It was such a great month.


----------



## Oldhippy (9 Jan 2021)

Great read thank you.


----------



## palinurus (9 Jan 2021)

palinurus said:


> I came across the term bikepacking in the early 80s when I checked this out of the school library!



Incidentally the school library was a great place. I went to what some parents referred to as the sink school. Volunteered in the library for a bit. I had a friend at school who hipped me on to all sorts of stuff- including the Tour on CH4, The Blackbyrds... we were both fascinated with those big art books in the section called 'oversize'- 'what have you got this time?' 'El Greco!'

Found him on Facebook recently and he'd posted about going to see Jim Davidson. Ah Well.


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## Juan Kog (10 Jan 2021)

iandg said:


> Surly you mean a Long Haul Trucker?


Are you a Troll trying to Steamroller me with your opinions ,that’s a bit on the Lowside . But I will Cross-Check first . After all I don’t want to be a Straggler and look like a Big Dummy.


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jan 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> Are you a Troll trying to Steamroller me with your opinions ,that’s a bit on the Lowside . But I will Cross-Check first . After all I don’t want to be a Straggler and look like a Big Dummy.



Steel yourself for the reply


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jan 2021)

chriswoody said:


> I'm completely with you on that regard, however I need fat tires for the terrain I'm riding on and that sadly leaves no room for mudguards, or at least I've not found any that fit. The rear pack does offer quite a bit of protection though.



Indeed but you missed the bit in my post that said on road tours. Thus excluding anything involving decent amounts of off road.


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## Juan Kog (10 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Steel yourself for the reply


I do Karate so don't Monkey with me , you might end up dealing with an Ogre on the Midnight Special. .
But as this is a very friendly forum , I suggest we meet at the Icecream Truck on Wednesday. .


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## Fram (10 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> This was our 'big' trip - we're starting to dream about recreating it in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lovely bike. My grand-daughter's called Liesl. Fram is my Thorn XTC. I found your trip some time back when "researching".


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## Ming the Merciless (10 Jan 2021)

Juan Kog said:


> I do Karate so don't Monkey with me , you might end up dealing with an Ogre on the Midnight Special. .
> But as this is a very friendly forum , I suggest we meet at the Icecream Truck on Wednesday. .



Don’t you go getting surly with me


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## Cathryn (11 Jan 2021)

Fram said:


> Lovely bike. My grand-daughter's called Liesl. Fram is my Thorn XTC. I found your trip some time back when "researching".


Oh that’s lovely! I hope my journal was helpful for your research. If our child had been a girl, she would have been named Liesl, it’s such a lovely name!! Your bike is gorgeous too. I can’t wait to tour this summer (I hope)


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## HobbesOnTour (19 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> This was our 'big' trip - we're starting to dream about recreating it in a few years when our son is a little older (he's just 11 now).
> 
> https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=2820&v=oa


Late, late reply but I'm really enjoying this! I'm rationing a few pages to peruse per day
Fantastic, descriptive writing and a few places are kicking the old memory organ into life.

Many thanks for sharing.


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## Cathryn (19 Jan 2021)

HobbesOnTour said:


> Late, late reply but I'm really enjoying this! I'm rationing a few pages to peruse per day
> Fantastic, descriptive writing and a few places are kicking the old memory organ into life.
> 
> Many thanks for sharing.


Thank you so much. I’m so glad it’s bringing a bit of joy in these grey days x


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## matticus (19 Jan 2021)

Just made me sadly nostalgic  

(You crossed my path through Switzerland - at Interlaken IIRC - but then went upto the Bond Villain resort, while I slogged over a couple of mountain passes!)


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## Cathryn (19 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Just made me sadly nostalgic
> 
> (You crossed my path through Switzerland - at Interlaken IIRC - but then went upto the Bond Villain resort, while I slogged over a couple of mountain passes!)



AND we took the train....such lightweights


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## Ming the Merciless (21 Jan 2021)

Bike packing in 1912


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## mjr (22 Jan 2021)

Source (with vintage sexism) seems to be https://triumphbicycles.wordpress.com/1912-royal-triumph-with-military-fittings/

The gun/umbrella carrier is cool but those brakes make me wince just thinking about them, given how iffy even modern calipers on steel rims can be as soon as they're wet.

Edit to add: 40" was the lowest gear offered! And I think I'm daft with 42" low here on the edge of the fens... And that front roll pack is supported by a substantial front rack, so is is still bike packing?


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## Ming the Merciless (22 Jan 2021)

mjr said:


> Source (with vintage sexism) seems to be https://triumphbicycles.wordpress.com/1912-royal-triumph-with-military-fittings/
> 
> The gun/umbrella carrier is cool but those brakes make me wince just thinking about them, given how iffy even modern calipers on steel rims can be as soon as they're wet.



Nah online bicycle museum is source


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## matticus (22 Jan 2021)

mjr said:


> Edit to add: 40" was the lowest gear offered! And I think I'm daft with 42" low here on the edge of the fens.


You watch - Fixie Backpacking, next big craze.


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## TheDoctor (24 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> You watch - Fixie Backpacking, next big craze.


Pfffft.
September 2014. Rode Stevenage - St Ives (the one near Huntingdon). Night in a hotel, pub with band. Next day, down the guided Busway to Cambridge for lunch, then back via Shelford, Fowlmere and Ashwell.
All on my Dynatech fixed. Although IIRC the leg from Cambridge was into the wind so I flipped the wheel - I have a 15T fixed and a 17T freewheel, for 69" or 61", That's on a 39T chainset and 700C, 24mm tyre.
Honestly, there's nothing new. Hells teeth, for a long while the Tour was done on fixed, although I'd hate to try it. Going round Provence on a Brompton felt daft enough.


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## matticus (24 Jan 2021)

TheDoctor said:


> Honestly, there's nothing new. Hells teeth, for a long while the Tour was done on fixed, although I'd hate to try it.


Well yes - I think that's what many people are saying here! 👍

EDIT; if the Grand Tours went back to fixed gears, that would sort out the top-tube crouch descenders. win-win.


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## DRM (24 Jan 2021)

https://pelotonmagazine.com/features/the-original-kings-of-gravel/
More evidence that there’s nothing new in cycling


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## HobbesOnTour (29 Jan 2021)

Cathryn said:


> This was our 'big' trip - we're starting to dream about recreating it in a few years when our son is a little older (he's just 11 now).
> 
> https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1mr&doc_id=2820&v=oa


I'm still enjoying my daily ration
As regards your son, I bought my trailer from a couple in Belgium who stopped touring when their 2 kids were babies but once grown a little, (the girl was nowhere near 11) they hired kid's e-bikes for tours.
No point in buying e-bikes for growing kids, they had their own panniers and while range may not be the full adult range they still covered decent distances.
I've seen more than a few family groups on my wanderings.


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## Cathryn (29 Jan 2021)

I can't tell you how happy it makes me that you're enjoying your daily ration of our trip  

Interesting point about renting an ebike for my son. That's a really good idea. But...he'd be so much faster than me....


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## andrew_s (29 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Bike packing in 1912
> 
> View attachment 570012


I think not. 2015, more like.

They hadn't invented the Canon 350D in 1912. Besides which I think both the bike and luggage would have been in a better state


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## Ming the Merciless (29 Jan 2021)

andrew_s said:


> I think not. 2015, more like.
> 
> They hadn't invented the Canon 350D in 1912. Besides which I think both the bike and luggage would have been in a better state



The bike and luggage are original 1912


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## andrew_s (29 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> The bike and luggage are original 1912


I didn't say they weren't, but the tour the photo was taken on was in 2000, by which time the bike had become tattier, and cameras had improved (2015 was an error)


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## matticus (30 Jan 2021)

Jeez.

I know nothing about cameras, but even *l* could tell the pic was more recent than 1912 😄

I doubt any deception was intended!


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## mercalia (30 Jan 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> The bike and luggage are original 1912



any one any idea whats in the roll on the front? looks like some firewood?!?


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## mercalia (30 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Jeez.
> 
> I know nothing about cameras, but even *l* could tell the pic was more recent than 1912 😄
> 
> I doubt any deception was intended!



havent you seen the film "back to the past"?


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## chriswoody (30 Jan 2021)

mercalia said:


> any one any idea whats in the roll on the front? looks like some firewood?!?



My guess is some kind of tent? It's kitted out as a military bike with a rifle and other military items. Loads of photos and info here:

https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/38387-2/?tax=date_tax&tid=142

sadly though, no exact details about what the military bits actually are. 

Some great extracts from the Triumph catalogue as well.


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## Ming the Merciless (30 Jan 2021)

matticus said:


> Jeez.
> 
> I know nothing about cameras, but even *l* could tell the pic was more recent than 1912 😄
> 
> I doubt any deception was intended!



Well of course , it is just showing that the backpacking luggage ideas aren’t new. You’d have to be a bit dim to think it was trying to say it was a photo from 1912. If anyone is concentrating on when the photo was taken, they are missing the point by a country mile. 😂


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## mjr (4 Feb 2021)

Ming the Merciless said:


> Well of course , it is just showing that the backpacking luggage ideas aren’t new. You’d have to be a bit dim to think it was trying to say it was a photo from 1912. If anyone is concentrating on when the photo was taken, they are missing the point by a country mile. 😂


Why? Where was it taken?


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## freiston (9 Feb 2021)

Well if folk aren't convinced by the military Triumph, how about this?


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## IaninSheffield (10 Feb 2021)

Dogtrousers said:


> The two on the right look like Watson and Holmes. Inspector Lestrade is probably one of the two on the left.


Think the fourth might be Mycroft.

Just looking again at the two on the left and their foot/pedal positions. How did they remain vertical for what might have been a long exposure (by current standards) photo?
Holmes ...?


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## matticus (10 Feb 2021)

IaninSheffield said:


> Just looking again at the two on the left and their foot/pedal positions. How did they remain vertical for what might have been a long exposure (by current standards) photo?
> Holmes ...?


Simply by leaning on each-other, my dear Watson!


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## matticus (10 Feb 2021)

(one can, of course, tell this by the tyre-tracks).


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## Lostagain (10 Feb 2021)

But Holmes, how did you know the mountains here were limestone? Sedimentary, my dear Watson.


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## iluvmybike (10 Feb 2021)

If you want to know how it has been done in the past then I recommend this book:

View: 
View: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rough-Stuff-Fellowship-Archive-Adventures-off-road/dp/0995488657/ref=asc_df_0995488657/


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## IaninSheffield (10 Feb 2021)

matticus said:


> Simply by leaning on each-other, my dear Watson!


Egad, how d'you do it Holmes?!

Actually, now you mention it, an even closer look suggests they might even be holding hands. Aw, bless.


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