# Etape Caledonia Sabotaged



## Isla Valassi (17 May 2009)

I know this is in the Etape thread but requires more prominence
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8054215.stm


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## Isla Valassi (17 May 2009)

The report states a number of riders had come off their bikes. It would be interesting to find out if this happened on a downhill stretch. If so, then the perpetrator(s) should be looking at an attempted murder charge.


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## longers (17 May 2009)

That is shocking !

It could easily have led to serious injuries.

Hope they find the culprit/s. Don't know how easy it will be but it'd be good if they do catch them.


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## fisha (17 May 2009)

I couldn't go this year, but think that its disgusting those actions and I would love to see someone hung out to dry over serious charges relating to it ... hopefully they will find then scum.


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## Crackle (17 May 2009)

That's grim news, unfortunately I don't think they'll find who did it. Same thing has been happening on a local shared use path for years here, someone doesn't like bikes on it. Police have still not found who's doing it. It's very difficult to spot someone doing something like that.


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

Very, very sad. Not only for cycling and the people who were taking part, but for the area as well.


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## LeeW (17 May 2009)

It happened from the bottom of the main hill, down the descent and around a loop at the bottom. After waiting at the top of the hill for about an hour, they had cleared the descent and also truncated the circuit by chopping out the 8 mile loop at the bottom of the descent.


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

So they placed the tacks in a place where it could cause the maximum amount of harm. 

Acts like this should be treated in the same way as any 'terrorist' attack.


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## PaulB (17 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> Acts like this should be treated in the same way as any 'terrorist' attack.



Perspective, please.


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

PaulB said:


> Perspective, please.



I have plenty of perspective. I don't mean that we should send armed police around to kill the perpetrators! Although... There are many different type of 'terrorism' and I'm suggesting that this is just at the other end of the spectrum.
This type of attack is motivated in the way suggested has similarities, i.e. targeting innocent victims, high probability of injury or perhaps death, failure to use political or diplomatic means to resolve it etc. It is possible that tourism in the area will also suffer as a result of this 'attack'. 

I just feel that the police should take this very seriously which I am sure, due to the publicity, they will.


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## yello (17 May 2009)

I'm just stunned that some idiot(s) would do such a thing. Someone could have gotten seriously hurt.


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

Just to add, I know terrorism isn't the right word, but it's the closest i could think of that relates to how I feel when people do this type of thing.


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## PaulB (17 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> I have plenty of perspective.



We're all annoyed mate, but to liken it to terrorism weakens our argument and makes us (you) look silly.

Sorry, just seen your newest post and yes. terrorism is the wrong word as you've aknowledged.


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

PaulB said:


> We're all annoyed mate, but to liken it to terrorism weakens our argument and makes us (you) look silly.
> 
> Sorry, just seen your newest post and yes. terrorism is the wrong word as you've aknowledged.




I suppose I'm just trying to say that it is an attack on a liberty. Anyway, this has side tracked enough.


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## HLaB (17 May 2009)

I was fuming  its maybe a bit over-dramatic but as far as I'm concerned its attempted murder  I was in a quite fast group going about 25mph downhill with a bend at the bottom when the front tyre blew I had a bit of a wobble that panicked others. Fortunately I was only struck once and held it but one of the blokes next to me was hit 5 times  and reading the bbc others were not so lucky.


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## numbnuts (17 May 2009)

It even made the news on ceefax


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## gavintc (17 May 2009)

My wife had a late start time and got to the bottom of the hill - schiehallion to find they had closed the route. She waited for about 90 mins before the ride was allowed over the hill and then she got a puncture on the descent. She was a little annoyed by it all. Chatting to people at the finish, it seems that a very few got through unscathed and most had mutiple puntures. Even when they were past the 'tacked' area, confidence was not high to push the pace up.


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## gavintc (17 May 2009)

I presume that in some of the highland villages, inbreeding must be a problem and the idiots will find something to amuse them.


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## snorri (17 May 2009)

gavintc said:


> I presume that in some of the highland villages, inbreeding must be a problem and the idiots will find something to amuse them.


Perhaps it is visitors to the area making comments like that that have led to todays incident.


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## gavintc (17 May 2009)

snorri said:


> Perhaps it is visitors to the area making comments like that that have led to todays incident.



Alright I was being facetious, but the anger at having the ride ruined by some idiots was apparent at the finish.


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## eldudino (17 May 2009)

I'm truly shocked that anyone would do anything like this. Completely disgusting.


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## dodgy (17 May 2009)

The worry now is that anti-cyclists who have seen just how effective a few buckets of carpet tacks can be might take to their local cycleways to cause some hassle. As Crackle said, it's happened around our way, the Wirral Way has been 'tacked' at least once. The local rangers told my wife they had 2 dogs in with tacks embedded in their paws  The ones that go*t* dropped around here were galvanised steel ones, so they won't even rust away.


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## Noodley (17 May 2009)

dodgy said:


> The ones that god dropped around here were galvanised steel ones, so they won't even rust away.




He's not a very benevolent god then is he?


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## dodgy (17 May 2009)

Well spotted


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## ACS (17 May 2009)

The direct action by a few 'locals' appears to have had the desired effect, maximum publicity for their cause, approximately 3500 disaffected participants and a massive shadow cast over the security of the event in the future. I understand a small (but misguided) part of the local community was campaigning against road closures so that the event could take place reasoning that the lack of access would hinder tourist accessing the area. How this can be reconciled with money spent locally by 3500 cyclist descending on the area beggars belief. 

By nature cyclist are conservative (note small ‘c’) in nature but I feel that we also have the right of protest or is that simply to radical?


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## arranandy (17 May 2009)

Once again the actions of a small idiotic minority has spoiled a great day for the majority. I am digusted by their behaviour and cannot believe their stupidity and potentially life-threatening actions.

I hope that this doesn't deter the organisers from running this event next year


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

If you were looking for a gesture to show the idiots that we don't bow to (I'm about to invent a new term here) 'playground terrorism' someone could always arrange a Critical Mass ride in the area....


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## ACS (17 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> If you were looking for a gesture to show the idiots that we don't bow to (I'm about to invent a new term here) 'playground terrorism' someone could always arrange a Critical Mass ride in the area....



Depending on the date (holiday pending) and to support the future of the this excellent event I'm in...........


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

satans budgie said:


> Depending on the date (holiday pending) I'm in...........



...oh, hold on a minute! I'm not organising it! Just planting a seed of an idea. I'm not sure if it is a good or a bad idea. We wouldn't want to upset the locals that currently support the idea. It's maybe worth debating though.


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## ACS (17 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> ...oh, hold on a minute! I'm not organising it! Just planting a seed of an idea. I'm not sure if it is a good or a bad idea. We wouldn't want to upset the locals that currently support the idea. It's maybe worth debating though.





Just the devil in me. I agree with you, debate is necessary but I bet your heart missed a beat


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

What would be a good idea would be to write to Etape Caledonia letting them know you would support them holding an event next year, and that you would be happy to take part in it. I am about to do just that. 

I was considering taking part next year, now I am determined. Anyone else?


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## ACS (17 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> What would be a good idea would be to write to Etape Caledonia letting them know you would support them holding an event next year, and that you would be happy to take part in it. I am about to do just that.
> 
> I was considering taking part next year, now I am determined. Anyone else?



Mags

Got an email or perhaps an open letter signed by CC members supporting the future of the event. I'm in for next year as well.


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## arranandy (17 May 2009)

magnatom said:


> What would be a good idea would be to write to Etape Caledonia letting them know you would support them holding an event next year, and that you would be happy to take part in it. I am about to do just that.
> 
> I was considering taking part next year, now I am determined. Anyone else?



I'm up for doing it next year as well. Hopefully get nearer the 4 hour mark than I was today


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

satans budgie said:


> Mags
> 
> Got an email or perhaps an open letter signed by CC members supporting the future of the event



I think numbers would make a difference, so the more individuals that send e-mails the better.

So if you are determined for EC 2010 to happen, write to the organisers offering your support. We can't let mindless idiots put us off.


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## magnatom (17 May 2009)

arranandy said:


> I'm up for doing it next year as well. Hopefully get nearer the 4 hour mark than I was today



I'd be happy with the 6 hour mark!


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## kennykool (17 May 2009)

As I have already said in another post..... I will NOT be doing the Etape next year!!!! Great event and brilliantly organised, however.... After speaking with a few of the IMG folks today, there is NOTHING they could have done to prevent this happening!

I honestly cannot see the event taking place next year and I am disgusted by this cos it means these morons have won!!!!

I have brought some of the tacs at home so I can show folks when I am telling the story!!!


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## Renard (17 May 2009)

From what I've heard there was a huge number of tacks so it seems that it must have been co-ordinated. I hope the Police are going to shake up the more vociferous amongst the protesters as some one must know something. Perhaps a pissed off local will shop whoever it was in after they suffer yet another puncture in their car because these tacks are going to be around for a while.


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## Renard (17 May 2009)

The other ironic thing is the roads were probably closed off for longer than was originally planned so the protesters scored an own goal on that front too.


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## Crankarm (18 May 2009)

The national radio networks and TV reported it but I'm sure it only made the nationals because it gives ammunition to cycle haters or shows cycling as being an inconvenience rather than as a genuine recreation, sport or means of transport. Many bulletins I heard throughout the day BBC included didn't even mention the fact it was a charity ride in supprt of MacMillan cancer, they just gave the impression that it was more selfish cyclists racing taking over and closing the roads and that stopping it by scattering tacks/nails in the road was some sort of light hearted prank and no harm done .


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## Alves (18 May 2009)

There's a significant and lasting safety problem for this public road and any motorcyclists using this road over the coming weeks.
These tacks will cause punctures to road users other than cyclists in the coming weeks before they are washed away.
I saw police motorbike riders inspecting their tyres very carefully that afternoon and looking rather annoyed.
I punctured twice but really enjoyed the 1st 2 hours and the final hour and will go back again if only to demonstrate my feelings on the matter.


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## mcd (18 May 2009)

*News!*

Just heard that evidence has come to light showing that the disruption to the event was organised, and carried out by more than one person. The plan was even disguised by a the codeword "Loch Lomond" - a loch many miles away from the nearby Loch Rannoch. Plans included an instruction that "you tack the high road and I'll tack the low road".


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## snorri (18 May 2009)

Yir jist a wee rascal mcd


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## kennykool (18 May 2009)

mcd said:


> Just heard that evidence has come to light showing that the disruption to the event was organised, and carried out by more than one person. The plan was even disguised by a the codeword "Loch Lomond" - a loch many miles away from the nearby Loch Rannoch. Plans included an instruction that "you tack the high road and I'll tack the low road".




Thats brilliant - just read it out to the guys in the office.

Thanks for bringing a smile to my face after such a horrible day yesterday


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## Etape Caledonia (18 May 2009)

*Official Statement*

*Etape Caledonia: *Sunday 17th May 2009​

*Official Statement from the Organisers of the Etape Caledonia*

As organisers of the Etape Caledonia we wanted to fully update everyone of exactly what happened at this year’s event – specifically regarding the course sabotage.

A large number of carpet tacks were scattered along sections of the course, by who we can only assume to be protestors of fact that it is a fully closed roads cycling event. This safety issue was highlighted by the lead group of cyclists experiencing punctures at a specific section 43 miles into the route. Subsequently hundreds of additional cyclists also received punctures as they approached the area.

As a result of safety concerns, in co-ordination with the local police and council, we implemented immediate safety contingencies. This included temporary stopping the race mid course while the roads were made as safe as possible. Once we were satisfied with the safety of the course the event was resumed. We are continuing to work with the local police and council to get to the bottom of what happened this year and ensure it won’t happen again.

As organisers of many mass participation events, we want to wholeheartedly thank every single competitor for their amazing attitude, patience and spirit. It was an inspiration.


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## Will1985 (18 May 2009)

Drivers need to get over the fact that they are going to experience a few hours of road closures. They are given plenty of warning to prepare by moving their car if they want to get out to church or whatever, but sheer bloody-mindedness means they would rather cause havoc on the day. As for the tacks, that is beyond belief and has no logic - I wonder if the perpetrators were intelligent enough to consider the possibility of locals getting punctures in the following weeks?!

I witnessed a similar attitude last year at the Birmingham Half Marathon - a woman had driven up from London to take her ageing mother out for lunch. Despite the fact she had a leaflet distributed 2 weeks previously listing all closure and opening times, she forced her way through the barriers and drove onto the course. Police soon put a stop to that game!


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## magnatom (18 May 2009)

Of course, another way to show that we will not be defeated by these idiots is to make sure any events in the area (and surrounding areas) are as busy as possible. The Trossachs Ton is not quite in the same area (further South), but a good turn out at this would send a message...


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## HLaB (18 May 2009)

The Local Paper (the Courier) head line of course is this and they've got quite a big article on it, it also concentrates on the benefits to the area in terms of tourism and the money raised for charity. The winning time 3h44m with p'tures


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## bonj2 (18 May 2009)

They should start by asking at shops that sell carpet tacks and looking at CCTV images from those shops.
Then they should interview the people that did and if they can't demonstrate a freshly laid carpet with those tacks used, they should be arrested.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for cyclists to demand evidence that CID are getting involved and not just let uniform write it off as an unsolveable crime.

And I don't think magnatom describing it as terrorism is out of order at all - it certainly does amount to terrorism. If protests at the G20 can be described as terrorism, then this certainly can be. If I was cycling down a road and there were carpet tacks causing cyclists to swerve and have punctures then I'd be terrified. I would be experiencing terror. That's terror that's been deliberately created, therefore it's terrorism. The perpetrators should be banged up for 42 days, that'll teach them.


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## Noodley (18 May 2009)

bonj said:


> They should start by asking at shops that sell carpet tacks and looking at CCTV images from those shops.
> Then they should interview the people that did...
> 
> The perpetrators should be banged up for 42 days, that'll teach them.



I am bonj...I am the law! 

Inspector bonj of Scotland Yard.


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## RSV_Ecosse (18 May 2009)

Karma folks, _karma_. 

Those responsible for this prize piece of idiocy will get "theirs" very shortly indeed.

I'm quietly confident of that.


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## HLaB (18 May 2009)

RSV_Ecosse said:


> I'm quietly confident of that.


You've got a Baseball Bat?


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## RSV_Ecosse (18 May 2009)

HLaB said:


> You've got a Baseball Bat?



LOL...!!!

No, just saying, thats all. What goes around comes around etc, etc.

To be honest, I don't think it would be difficult to eventually pinpoint those responsible. Smallish village community like that?. Word will eventually get around. The thing is that the Police won't put too much effort into tracing the culprits anyway, much busier with other pressing matters as we all know. Which is unfortunate.


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## JonoB (18 May 2009)

Nothing surprises me any more regarding the selfishness of our society. This just wouldn't happen in France.


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## Maverick75 (18 May 2009)

If you want to continue to support this event, and I for 1 think it deserves supporting even more now, entries for next year are now open at
https://www.clubsonline.com.au/even...=display_event_detail&EventID=2569&orgid=1966

My entry is in - riding at speed in a large peleton is one of the best experiences I've had on a bike. Even stood for 40mins at the top of the climb and a puncture didn't spoil it. Although it would have been better without those holdups.


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## magnatom (18 May 2009)

Maverick75 said:


> If you want to continue to support this event, and I for 1 think it deserves supporting even more now, entries for next year are now open at
> https://www.clubsonline.com.au/even...=display_event_detail&EventID=2569&orgid=1966
> 
> My entry is in - riding at speed in a large peleton is one of the best experiences I've had on a bike. Even stood for 40mins at the top of the climb and a puncture didn't spoil it. Although it would have been better without those holdups.




Excellent! I'll need to double check with the wife, but if she is ok with it, I'll be in!

I think this needs a new thread. I'll start it. Hope you don't mind.


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## snorri (18 May 2009)

It would be interesting to know which businesses have supported the ACRE organisation so that I could boycott these businesses when holidaying in Perth-shire, as I hope to do next month.
http://www.commentonline.co.uk/general/BattleContinuestoPreventMayClosedRoads.htm


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## RSV_Ecosse (18 May 2009)

How many members does ACRE have?.

I just Googled it and they have next to no web presence at all.

Do all three members of ACRE live in the same house without a telly, running water and most importantly, the internet?.


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## yello (18 May 2009)

Devil's advocate for a moment; do the roads need to be closed? Yes, I know it's great to be able to ride traffic free roads but is there a real danger from them not being closed?


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## magnatom (18 May 2009)

yello said:


> Devil's advocate for a moment; do the roads need to be closed? Yes, I know it's great to be able to ride traffic free roads but is there a real danger from them not being closed?




Having cycled in Pedal For Scotland which is not on closed roads and has a similar amount of participants (although in general a more recreational type of cyclist) I would say one of the downsides to the event is that it is not closed. A few drivers (not many) became very irritated and I saw a couple of flash points where cyclists and drivers got angry at each other. 

Roads can be closed for marathons on a routine basis for much longer periods of time, surely a few hours in a remote part of the country which benefits greatly from the even isn't much to ask?

(In 2007 65% of participants said that the best aspect of the race was that it was on closed roads)


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## ColinJ (18 May 2009)

yello said:


> Devil's advocate for a moment; do the roads need to be closed? Yes, I know it's great to be able to ride traffic free roads but is there a real danger from them not being closed?


I'd have thought that very quiet roads like those would be potentially _very_ dangerous for an event like that if kept open! On busy roads, everybody (with any sense of self-preservation) is watching out for traffic. If you haven't seen a car in the last hour it would be easy to think that you aren't going to see one coming towards you round the next blind bend either...


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## magnatom (18 May 2009)

Also remember part of the point of the race is to get a good time. This would be counter to safety if cars were in the mix, i.e. cyclists taking risks they would not normally take etc.


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## ferret fur (18 May 2009)

Also some of the roads are tiny. You could not squeeze that number of bikes past a car going in the opposite direction safely. Don't forget you have bunches of 50+ riders going at speed into tight bends. It is one of the sillier arguments for having this event with open roads: If they _were_ open you would be extremely stupid to drive down them.


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## HLaB (18 May 2009)

What springs to mind is that unfortunate death of the bloke doing a TT the other week, it reinforces the idea of mixing traffic and a race being a bad thing.


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## gavintc (18 May 2009)

Personally, I think that IMG should move their operation. What they sell is a guaranteed income for a market town. Look for a new town, a new route and run the same concept. I really think that the prats who put the tacks down will be back for more if the route is run again. In my opinion, the route could move over a range of routes with Pitlochry being used in 2-3 yrs time. The protesters believe they have a legal basis for the argument and will push this one quite hard. If the money income was removed from their area, I can guarantee, they will become persona non grata.


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## bigskelf (18 May 2009)

snorri said:


> It would be interesting to know which businesses have supported the ACRE organisation so that I could boycott these businesses when holidaying in Perth-shire, as I hope to do next month.
> http://www.commentonline.co.uk/general/BattleContinuestoPreventMayClosedRoads.htm


Turns out Mr Hounman He Of Acre and Keep Driving to Church Sacred group is the owner of Legends of Grandtully. Choccies and posh gifts etc. So guess who's never getting any of my custom :-)


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## Renard (18 May 2009)

gavintc said:


> Personally, I think that IMG should move their operation. What they sell is a guaranteed income for a market town. Look for a new town, a new route and run the same concept. I really think that the prats who put the tacks down will be back for more if the route is run again. In my opinion, the route could move over a range of routes with Pitlochry being used in 2-3 yrs time. The protesters believe they have a legal basis for the argument and will push this one quite hard. If the money income was removed from their area, I can guarantee, they will become persona non grata.



That's a good idea!


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## bigskelf (18 May 2009)

*Sheepish*

Guess I must be pretty annoyed, just posted for the first time after lurking for several months


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## eldudino (18 May 2009)

RSV_Ecosse said:


> How many members does ACRE have?.
> 
> I just Googled it and they have next to no web presence at all.
> 
> Do all three members of ACRE live in the same house without a telly, running water and most importantly, the internet?.



You could probably ask their head honcho, his email address is [removed] turns out they do have internet access after all...


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## Dayvo (18 May 2009)

bigskelf said:


> *Guess I must be pretty annoyed*, just posted for the first time after lurking for several months



What, for outing yourself and revealing your identity? 

Welcome to CC!  

It's time like this (the tack incidence) that cycling and cyclists have to stand up together and be counted.


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## bigskelf (18 May 2009)

Thanks.... more of a wannabe just now, getting back to the bike after several (cough.. twenty) years. But I do hope to be up for next years etape. I'm just south of Perth so almost a local and both annoyed and embarrassed.


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## Scoosh (18 May 2009)

During the first Etape Caledonia, I was a spectator near Aberfeldy. The other people at this place were 2 local (Aberfeldy) marshals, the uncle of the organiser and a man from visitscotland. It was a very interesting few hours, talking to local people and watching/encouraging the cyclists going past (about 55 miles).

The organiser himself had been to school in KinlochRannoch and, I think, later in Pitlochry. He wanted to do something to benefit the area and thought up the Etape Caledonia concept - knowing that, if it could be on closed roads, it would be a 'special event' in UK cycling. The timing of that first event was not brilliant, the date having been decided fairly late and 'noses were put out of joint'. 

Part of the problem is that Pitlochry and Aberfeldy have never had good relations with one another (Edinburgh/Glasgow comes to mind ) and don't talk very friendlily (?). The majority of the complaints were from the Aberfeldy area. The local couple understood both positions but could see the potential and "to close the roads for 6 hours each year (!) is worth it, in the long run". Visitscotland man was also pointing out that the benefit to the local community would not necessarily be felt that first year. It would be from the cyclists who came to the area for perhaps the first time, liked what they saw and would go back to their club, family etc and tell of the great area and return for a club training week, a family holiday, a weekend or whatever. It would only be a year or two down the line that the benefits/malfits (??) would be really experienced.

Some folk walked along from the local kirk and passed us with comments like "Well, we've just been to church" - and did I detect a slightly _smug _tone of voice ?  I've been to churches where the times of the services change quite often - and it's no big deal. For 1 day in the year, could you not have your service starting at 1430 ?

The roads are NOT closed all day - the signs being shown on the BBC news this evening clearly showed that the closure was for 4 hours (only). Statistics can tell us anything but apparently Perth and Kinross Council reckon the event is worth £440,000 to the local economy.

The independent economic assessment carried out on the 2008 event found:

• There were 2013 entrants, of which 1,702 participated in the event. There were an additional 2,592 spectators. (The 2007 figures showed 1,022 participants and 1,514 participants)
• 85% of these people were from outwith Perth and Kinross, of which 38% from were outwith Scotland (2007 figures: 80% and 20% respectively)
• 81% stayed overnight (2007 figure: 70%)
• A total of 4,294 visitors attracted a net economic impact of £416,885 for Perth and Kinross (2007 figure: £191,337) 
• 89% of visitors rated their visitor experience to Perth and Kinross as good or very good, and 84% said they were likely or very likely to return to the area outwith the event over the next three years
• 91% of spectators rated the Etape Caledonia as good/very good.

(full report here)

Note this too:

Ideas currently being discussed for the 2009 event include: 
• A new endurance hill climb for cyclists up Glen Quaich (the longest sustained hill climb in the UK)        

It is worthy of note that BBC Scotland, The Scotsman and The Herald newspapers, in all their reports about the 'tacking' incident, have described it as a "charity bike ride". I thnk the Polis will do the necessary work on this and bring the miscreants to justice - there is too much at stake for it to be put under the carpet.

Apologies for the long post but I think this is too good an event to be messed up by a few, who have legitimate concerns ... but are a bit, shall we say, narrow-minded ?


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## Scoosh (18 May 2009)

bigskelf said:


> I'm just south of Perth so almost a local and both annoyed and embarrassed.


I think that is the majority local feeling


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## rossh (18 May 2009)

bigskelf said:


> Turns out Mr Hounman He Of Acre and Keep Driving to Church Sacred group is the owner of Legends of Grandtully. Choccies and posh gifts etc. So guess who's never getting any of my custom :-)



Is this true? Ironically my group spent a small fortune in that place a couple of days before the race and we'd never have been anywhere near Grandtully if it wasn't for the Etape. I'm choking on one of their (very expensive) chocolates as I type ...


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## Noodley (18 May 2009)

rossh said:


> Is this true? ...



Yep, one of my clubmates and his wife almost went into his place last year until they saw a sign on the door proclaiming his opposition to the event. Another lost customer...


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## Crackle (18 May 2009)

rossh said:


> Is this true? Ironically my group spent a small fortune in that place a couple of days before the race and we'd never have been anywhere near Grandtully if it wasn't for the Etape. I'm choking on one of their (very expensive) chocolates as I type ...



You should post the rest back 

Sadly, after spending a few years in this type of community I don't find any of this surprising.


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## Fab Foodie (18 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Yep, one of my clubmates and his wife almost went into his place last year until they saw a sign on the door proclaiming his opposition to the event. Another lost customer...



I think we should go and lean 3,500 bicycles against his shop window...


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## bof (19 May 2009)

Spotted a follow up item on the local paper's site (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2009/05/19/newsstory13161718t0.asp) which has a section after some strong local condemnation which says:

"Meanwhile, an alternative view was offered by Eveline Bright from Fortingall, Aberfeldy, who said while the incident could not be condoned, she did not feel the event brought anything to areas outwith Pitlochry.

“Aberfeldy, Glen Lyon and other rural areas do not find any benefit, merely a considerable amount of concern,” she said.

“The roads in the area are closed for half of the day of the race, preventing those in the Glen Lyon, Fortingall and Keltneyburn areas from leaving their homes at all.

“We may not leave our homes for any essential items and, much more importantly, the whole community is prevented from attending the Sunday Christian services.

“I wonder if the roads would be closed and the residents ‘restrained’ if we were of other faiths or nationalities.

“I was under the impression that we were attempting to fight discrimination. Perhaps not if you are white and Christian and don’t cycle.” 

Truly pathetic BNP fodder!


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## just jim (19 May 2009)

“I was under the impression that we were attempting to fight discrimination. Perhaps not if you are white and Christian and don’t cycle.”

Arghhh!!!!

A decent candidate for spEak You’re bRanes


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## eldudino (19 May 2009)

bof said:


> “I was under the impression that we were attempting to fight discrimination. Perhaps not if you are white and Christian and don’t cycle.”



I'm not Christian so I can't be sure but I'm sure there's something about *tolerance* in the bible...


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## just jim (19 May 2009)

Well, I've signalled my disgust at this act of sabotage by...registering for 2010!

Anybody got a road bike they don't need?


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## bigskelf (19 May 2009)

*Glen Quaich*



scoosh said:


> • A new endurance hill climb for cyclists up Glen Quaich (the longest sustained hill climb in the UK)[/FONT]
> 
> I know the hill, several winters ago in hard packed snow, I got my 4x4 subaru stuck half way up. The scary bit was not that I couldn't go up, but the beast started to slide back under its own weight. Luckily another couple appeared just as it got dark and helped guide it back down the hill like a giant sledge. One of us inside to work the brakes when we got down off the steepest section and the other three nudging it in the right direction.
> Nearest and dearest still hasn't forgiven me for that little adventure


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## kellis10 (19 May 2009)

just jim said:


> Well, I've signalled my disgust at this act of sabotage by...registering for 2010!
> 
> Anybody got a road bike they don't need?



I totally agree the only way to make sure these idiots do'nt win is to the support the event again next year! 

The event slogan for Etape 2010 :- *DLTBGYD*


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## Maverick75 (19 May 2009)

Well, the Police have taken this seriously. Interesting to see what he has to say for himself in court and what links he has to ACRE
http://www.tayside.police.uk/newsitem.php?id=1665


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## RSV_Ecosse (19 May 2009)

Also on BBC News website :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8057084.stm



> *A 62-year-old man has been charged in connection with the sabotage of a cycle race in Highland Perthshire.*
> Carpet tacks were placed across sections of the Etape Caledonia route causing hundreds of cyclists to suffer punctures on Sunday.
> The 81-mile race around Pitlochry had to be halted for about an hour-and-a-half while the road at Innerhadden and Schiehallion was made safe.
> 
> ...


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## dodgy (19 May 2009)

I hope several hundred cyclists take the guy to court for the damage to tyres


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## rossh (19 May 2009)

Any lawyers on here? If found guilty can we bring a civil case for compensation? (1000 + inner tubes?)


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## RSV_Ecosse (19 May 2009)

Will also be interesting to see if this individual owns and runs a local business.


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## LeeW (19 May 2009)

As it spoiled my day, as well as the inner tubes, maybe we could also claim our entry fees and also travel costs?


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## kennykool (19 May 2009)

I am amazed - I never thought they'd catch anyone

Good job Tayside Police


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## Noodley (19 May 2009)

kennykool said:


> Good job Tayside Police



I shall pass it on to Mrs Noodley


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## LeeW (19 May 2009)

Pictures are now online at www.sportcam.net
I think they are overpriced though so wil not be buying any.


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## Christopher (19 May 2009)

Oooh the Tayside polis really nailed that guy!

_IGMC_

Anyone know the charge? Reckless Endangerment perhaps?


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## Alves (19 May 2009)

Wonderful news, I hope no one takes direct action against him (no, I mean it in all seriousness) and he takes a hit in court.
I think the local papers will be very critical indeed.


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## Noodley (19 May 2009)

Frustruck said:


> Oooh the Tayside polis really nailed that guy!
> 
> _IGMC_
> 
> Anyone know the charge? Reckless Endangerment perhaps?



I would imagine culpable and reckless conduct would figure...there are a few charges which could apply.


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## Etape Caledonia (19 May 2009)

*Etape Caledonia: Organisers Defiant in the Face of Adversity*

IMG, organisers of the Macmillan Cancer Support Etape Caledonia, are today defiant in the wake of a deliberate attempt by mindless vandals to endanger cyclists’ lives and wreak havoc with the event. Buoyed by an influx of messages from local residents, businesses, politicians and business organisations, IMG are determined to implement their plan to open entries immediately for the 2010 Etape Caledonia. 

IMG have already taken steps to meet with Tayside Police and Perth & Kinross Council leaders to ensure that there will be no repeat of yesterday’s incident next year. 

Jon Hazan, event director, said, “This is an important event for IMG and we are committed to ensuring it is a success, not only for our participants but for the local community.”

“We’ve been overwhelmed with messages from individuals and businesses who are, quite simply, appalled at what has happened on their doorstep, expressing their direct support for the event and encouraging us to return to the area in 2010. I can confirm that the actions of whoever is responsible will do nothing to deter us from returning to Highland Perthshire and strengthens our resolve to make the event a continuing success in 2010.”

Entries are now available for the 2010 Macmillan Cancer Support Etape Caledonia event at www.etapecaledonia.co.uk


The organisers were alerted to a major safety incident early on Sunday morning on a section of the closed road cycle challenge, requiring the event to be halted for 1 hour and 25 minutes. It was discovered that a large number of carpet tacks had been thrown along significant sections of the course and as a result of safety concerns the organisers, in co-ordination with the local police and council, implemented immediate safety contingencies. Once the organisers were satisfied with the safety of the course, the event was resumed. 

Expressing his view on the unwelcome incident, Tayside Joint Police Board Convener Ian Mackintosh said today: ‘‘The actions that led to the disruption and considerable inconvenience during the event are nothing short of contemptible.”

He continued, ‘‘Whilst I am appalled that anyone would act in such an irresponsible fashion and run the real risk of injuring large numbers of people, I was greatly heartened by the outcry that followed and the widespread condemnation directed at this dreadful behaviour.”

‘‘The Etape Caledonia is a true highlight on the sporting calendar that attracts thousands of competitors, as well as their friends and family, to one of the UK’s most stunning landscapes. The event and the many people that it draws to Perthshire are warmly received by the overwhelming majority of the local community.”

He concluded, ‘‘I would ask anyone with information that could assist enquiries to come forward and having spoken with the Deputy Chief Constable today I am confident that Tayside Police will work swiftly to identify those responsible and hold them to account. Furthermore, I would hope when those responsible are put in front of the court that a very strong line is taken.’’ 


Charity partner Macmillan Cancer Support, who had over 1000 fundraisers riding in the event, also expressed their support for the future of the event. Eleanor Whitfield, challenge events co-ordinator from Macmillan commented “Thanks to the effort and determination of 3,500 cyclists, Sunday’s 81-mile Macmillan Cancer Support Etape Caledonia was a huge success raising a staggering £250,000 for Macmillan Cancer Support.”

She continued, “Macmillan would like to say very big thank you to all the participants for their patience and camaraderie - despite the incident on the course, the mood remained positive throughout and disruption to both the enjoyment and fundraising was minimal. Team Macmillan are very much looking forward to Etape Caledonia 2010 when we hope to raise even more money for Macmillan to help provide vital support to people affected by cancer.” She continued. 

With police investigations still in progress, Tayside Police continue to follow a positive line of enquiry into what they describe as “reckless and irresponsible actions”. They are appealing to anyone who has any information that could assist the investigation to call Tayside Police on 0300 111 2222, or speak to any officer.

Councilor John Kellas, Perth & Kinross Council's Convener of Enterprise & Infrastructure, piled further condemnation on the incident in support of the event.

He said, "The entire Enterprise & Infrastructure Committee deplore this irresponsible and, frankly, dangerous behaviour. It is fortunate that no-one was injured as a result. We are all disgusted by this reckless act. We fully support Tayside Police in their efforts to track down whoever is responsible and encourage anyone with information to contact the Police.”

"I am pleased however that yesterday's incident did not prevent thousands of people from enjoying the Etape Caledonia, the community events that complemented it and what Highland Perthshire has to offer. Furthermore, it will not deter us, or the organisers, from our wider shared purpose - to deliver massive benefits to the local economy."

Mike Beale, President of Perthshire Chamber of Commerce, issued a statement on behalf of the many businesses in the area that have contacted them, also condemning the actions of the saboteurs. Mike commented:

“We have been contacted by many local businesses today expressing their dismay and anger that a single criminal act of such a mindless minority could take place in what is a most beautiful part of Scotland. I was fortunate to be at the event as a spectator and personally witnessed how mutually supportive the participants were of each other’s shared plight and their spirit in the face of adversity is much to be admired.”

“On behalf of the local business community I would urge the organisers not to be put off by the vandalism that this year’s event has experienced. They clearly have strong support from the local business community to continue growing an event that has a demonstrable and positive impact on Destination Perthshire.”


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## killiekosmos (19 May 2009)

It's good that local Chamber of Commerce condemns this. It helps show that the ACRE mob are an unrepresentative minority.

If the guilty party is identified I expect the locals to ostracise him. If he has a business I expect it will suffer badly. Many cyclists may seek to claim losses from him. Perhaps CTC may raise a 'class' action.


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## gavintc (19 May 2009)

killiekosmos said:


> It's good that local Chamber of Commerce condemns this. It helps show that the ACRE mob are an unrepresentative minority.
> 
> If the guilty party is identified I expect the locals to ostracise him. If he has a business I expect it will suffer badly. Many cyclists may seek to claim losses from him. Perhaps CTC may raise a 'class' action.



I am tempted to put a claim in. I will wait and see what develops with his criminal conviction. I 'presume' a claim through the small claims court would be possible.


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## gillan (20 May 2009)

Dear All

boy arrested is the Chair of the local Community Council

they are publicly accountable, albeit more to their own community, although I have written to them to let them know that my weekend camping trips may move this year and for confirmation if the Community Council feel the same way as their chair and what if any action will be taken against him by the Council

you may wish to do the same

RannochCommunityCouncil@pkc.gov.uk


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## dodgy (20 May 2009)

Good grief! It sounds like League of Gentlemen country up there! Are you local?


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## HLaB (20 May 2009)

gillan said:


> Dear All
> 
> boy arrested is the Chair of the local Community Council
> 
> ...


Hmmm, a local paper although it doesn't name names suggests:


> described as being from the Rannoch area


 and


> It is understood the accused has an active role in the everyday life of the local community.



Full Story


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## magnatom (20 May 2009)

Oh dear. How deep does the rabbit hole go?


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## snorri (20 May 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8059601.stm


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

gillan said:


> boy arrested is the Chair of the local Community Council



No surprise there. They're mostly full of the self serving, self-interested.


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## gillan (20 May 2009)

yup

and a church elder...

I can just imagine the fun in his house....


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## killiekosmos (20 May 2009)

More details in the Daily Ranger

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-sabotage-attack-on-bike-race-86908-21373683/

Alex Grosset, 62, was arrested at his home in the early hours of yesterday morning.

He is expected to appear before Perth Sheriff Court today to face reckless conduct charges relating to thedisruption of the Etape Caledonia event through Perthshire on Sunday.

Grosset is the chairman of the Rannoch and Tummel Community Council and a member of the local Rotary club.


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## rossh (20 May 2009)

The very frighteningly people at ACRE are defending him today as "a respectable Rannoch resident and Pitlochry businessman, a kirk elder, a member of Pitlochry Rotary Club, a community councillor and an activist in the community campaign for out-of-hours GP services in the area."

http://www.commentonline.co.uk/general/LocalCllrToDeselectatNextElection.htm

So maybe he's a great guy after all??

This Peter Hounam character is clearly ready to fight to he death over this one.


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## ferret fur (20 May 2009)

More to the point...He's a lawyer
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6328018.ece


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## dodgy (20 May 2009)

No way will he get a custodial sentence with all that previous good character evidence.


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## Noodley (20 May 2009)

He's on petition so being treated seriously.


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## bigskelf (20 May 2009)

*open trap*

Hmmmmn, think I smell a trap here. does the the term judas goat mean anything?
The "poor oppressed" acre people are now being abused and attacked by all the nasty arrogant cyclists. The individual involved will no doubt claim that he was driven to it.
I was a bit suspicious that acre had gone so quiet before the race. 

Jeez I'm beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist!

DLTBGYD... I think the best approach is to make the event a success and boycott any ACRE supporting business. But PLEASE lay off personal abuse or sending stuff to obvious targets. you are only playing their game.

excuse me, I need to go and replace the bacofoil covering on my my bike helmet


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## HJ (20 May 2009)

So here we have it Alex Grosset, 62, chairman of the Rannoch and Tummel Community Council and a church elder, from Bridge of Gaur, Pitlochry, has been charged with culpably and recklessly placing carpet tacks on the road. The charge states that the road was being used for a closed road cycle event and that Mr Grosset's actions caused damage to bicycles, *emergency service vehicles* and other associated vehicles.

An event which raised more that £250,000 for Macmillan Cancer Support. You would think such a pillar of society would behave better, bring back the birch...


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## papercorn2000 (20 May 2009)

gillan said:


> Dear All
> 
> boy arrested is the Chair of the local Community Council
> 
> ...



Good work Inspector Gillan! You could also post said address on Braveheart and the like and ensure plenty of outraged bluster from more than just myself!


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## ferret fur (20 May 2009)

Do you know, if you look around the internewt, the place is awash with stories about this: Perthshire must be agog at the moment. If you believe some of the stories the area makes the avearge episode of Casualty look mundane. People having strokes, epileptic fits, braking legs. It all seems to be happening! Then, every so often I think to myself. This is all about a few minor roads along which very few people live, being closed for a few hours on a Sunday morning outwith the main tourist season. Crazy.


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## gavintc (20 May 2009)

Hairy Jock said:


> So here we have it Alex Grosset, 62, chairman of the Rannoch and Tummel Community Council and a church elder, from Bridge of Gaur, Pitlochry, has been charged with culpably and recklessly placing carpet tacks on the road. The charge states that the road was being used for a closed road cycle event and that Mr Grosset's actions caused damage to bicycles, *emergency service vehicles* and other associated vehicles.
> 
> An event which raised more that £250,000 for Macmillan Cancer Support. You would think such a pillar of society would behave better, bring back the birch...



You really could not make this up. I often laugh at the ridiculous plot lines of TV programmes claiming that real life is never so remarkable. Well, here we have it. This is absolutely stunning; church, rotary, lawyer, council member. A real pillar or is pillock of society. As someone else has commented, the gossip in Pitlochry must be interesting.


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

So how did they track him down then, because I honestly didn't think they would, though I'm sure the local polis had a good idea who it was likely to have been but proving it..........


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## Noodley (20 May 2009)

Anyone know of a list of anti-event campaigners? My club runs a couple of events in Pitlochry/Rannoch areas and I would not like to support any business which was anti. 

I would like to think our 'usual' cafe stops were not included, but if they are then I feel some direct action might be called for.


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## adscrim (20 May 2009)

Hairy Jock said:


> So here we have it Alex Grosset, 62, chairman of the Rannoch and Tummel Community Council and a church elder, from Bridge of Gaur, Pitlochry, has been charged with culpably and recklessly placing carpet tacks on the road. The charge states that the road was being used for a closed road cycle event and that Mr Grosset's actions caused damage to bicycles, *emergency service vehicles* and other associated vehicles.
> 
> An event which raised more that £250,000 for Macmillan Cancer Support. You would think such a pillar of society would behave better, bring back the birch...



He's a personal injury lawyer by all accounts. If only I'd had the fore thought to fall of a ladder or trip over some tacks...


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## Fab Foodie (20 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> *So how did they track him down then*, because I honestly didn't think they would, though I'm sure the local polis had a good idea who it was likely to have been but proving it..........



Police tacktics no doubt, the perpetrator's certainly got a screw loose, but now they've nailed him I hope he gets hammered by the courts.


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> Police tacktics no doubt, the perpetrator's certainly got a screw loose, but now they've nailed him I hope he gets hammered by the courts.


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## rossh (20 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Anyone know of a list of anti-event campaigners? My club runs a couple of events in Pitlochry/Rannoch areas and I would not like to support any business which was anti.
> 
> I would like to think our 'usual' cafe stops were not included, but if they are then I feel some direct action might be called for.



I can think of at least one cafe / gift shop you might want to put on that list. More positively I would love to know which businesses are genuinely losing any money as a result of the Etape but NOT opposing it. I am sure cyclists would make a special effort to support these.


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## Noodley (20 May 2009)

rossh said:


> I can think of at least one cafe / gift shop you might want to put on that list.



Yes, *that* one is on my/our list.


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## LeeW (20 May 2009)

I wonder what (if any) punishment would be given if found guilty? How about 1 day in clink for each and every p*nct*r*?


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

Won't they all have helpful signs up saying they belong to ARSE or whatever?


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## Noodley (20 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> Won't they all have helpful signs up saying they belong to ARSE or whatever?



They might have tell-tale sticky bits on windows where ARSE stickers used to be...


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## killiekosmos (20 May 2009)

It's good to see many locals are actively seeking to support future events

http://www.cyclehighlandperthshire.com/home/etape-caledonia/support-hp-cycling.aspx

http://www.allmediascotland.com/med...munity_united_in_campaign_to_bring_back_etape

and this web site is run by Mr Hounam (our friendly ACRE member and local cafe owner - and ex ST journo)

http://www.commentonline.co.uk/


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

killiekosmos said:


> and this web site is run by Mr Hounam (our friendly ACRE member and local cafe owner - and ex ST journo)
> 
> http://www.commentonline.co.uk/





pffffttt! What cracking reporting. So ARSE has got 500 members has it. What they mean is they've got 500 names on a petition. 200 were foriegn visitor who didn't know what they were signing, 120 were the local tea/knitting/community groups who also didn't know what they were signing, 40 signed it because they sign everything, 120 signed it because they thought it was the petition to build a swimming pool and 20 actually signed it in full knowledge but half of them were married to each other.


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

Actually I particularly like this quote from ARSE. 

_“We wholeheartedly deplore what occurred. Any suggestion of direct action has been strongly discouraged at every meeting we have held"_

Oh right, so the subject came up at most meetings did it.


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## Noodley (20 May 2009)

Would it be strange to find out that the accused is a member of ACRE then....


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## Crackle (20 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Would it be strange to find out that the accused is a member of ACRE then....




So far I haven't read that but it wouldn't surprise me as the accused seems to be a member of everything. He didn't run the hardware shop as well did he?


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## alp1950 (20 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> So how did they track him down then, because I honestly didn't think they would, though I'm sure the local polis had a good idea who it was likely to have been but proving it..........



Second-hand information- but I heard speculation that that he bought the tacks in the local hardware store & was shopped by the owner.


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## ferret fur (21 May 2009)

I was told he'd been seen doing it by a local manning a feed staton & recognized. I'm sure it will all come out at the trial.


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## yello (21 May 2009)

I'm interested in just what punishment he'll receive. I'm not anticipating anything more than a 'naughty boy' bound over to keep the peace kind of thing. It'll be seen merely as a moment of madness given his local standing.


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## HLaB (21 May 2009)

Are you allowed to stand as politician (local councillor) if you have a criminal record, even if he escapes as likely  with just a fine ?


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## Noodley (21 May 2009)

HLaB said:


> ...even if he escapes as likely  with just a fine ?




Why do people do this? First it was 'the police will never catch the person responsible' and now it's 'he'll only get fined'. Wait to see what happens eh?

He is appearing on petition which means it is being viewed very seriously.


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## HLaB (21 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Why do people do this? First it was 'the police will never catch the person responsible' and now it's 'he'll only get fined'. Wait to see what happens eh?
> 
> He is appearing on petition which means it is being viewed very seriously.


Unfortunately past examples usually have this outcome; as you say its best to see what actually happens. I'm glad to see appearing on petition is a pretty serious thing, it should be.


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## yello (21 May 2009)

In my case, I think that because nobody was actually injured that this won't be judged particularly seriously. It's entirely possible that the beak will come to the view that it was 'just a few blow-outs' so no big thing... and the man is a fine and upstanding citizen. Taking off my cyclists hat, I can see where that pov comes from.


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## Noodley (21 May 2009)

HLaB said:


> I'm glad to see appearing on petition is a pretty serious thing, it should be.



In Scotland there is either a complaint which is held under Summary procedure which can be heard in a Justice of the Peace or a Sheriff Court; or there is a petition which is held under Solemn procedure, which means either Sheriff and Jury or the High Court, with greater sentencing options.


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## rossh (21 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Yes, *that* one is on my/our list.



They now have a "We Support Cyclists in Perthshire" message on their website which you can make of what you will.


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## dodgy (21 May 2009)

From: http://www.commentonline.co.uk/general/LocalCllrToDeselectatNextElection.htm



> He continued: “Now you have the cheek to insist we should give up our campaign and our complaint because the race has become enormous and is therefore a fait accompli.
> “You should appreciate that if the event was run *properly as a trial with participants starting over several hours*, as it was meant to be, there would be no problem having the race on open roads. ACRE *would help marshall such a trial* but fully in aid of* local interests not an interloper like Etape Caledonia*.”
> Concluding, Peter Hounam wrote: “There is an arrogant tone ...which I deplore. You represent the 500 plus people who back ACRE as much as anyone else but now we know where you stand - something it has been hitherto difficult to discern. I for one shall not be voting for you again.”



They really don't get it do they? The reason why so many cyclists head north for this event is because it is on closed roads! What they're proposing is tantamount to a time trial  And LOL at the interloper comment, that's the real problem isn't it? Those 'outsiders' B)

Tits.


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## namastebuzz (21 May 2009)

The interesting possibility that arises here is that if this chap is convicted it could leave the way open to those who suffered to raise civil actions against him.

People I know who were in the lead group would have had two damaged tyres, a few inner tubes and gas cylinders etc so £60 or £70 there each for starters.

If you factor in entry fees and cost of travel/camping you could work up to a tidy sum.

If EVERYBODY did this then he could face a very hefty bill indeed


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## Noodley (21 May 2009)

namastebuzz said:


> The interesting possibility that arises here is that if this chap is convicted it could leave the way open to those who suffered to raise civil actions against him.



Another legal point: there is no need for a conviction to raise a civil action. Criminal law requires proof 'beyond reasonable doubt' whereas civil law requires proof on the 'balance of probabilities'. Essentially less proof is required for civil cases.


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## namastebuzz (21 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Another legal point: there is no need for a conviction to raise a civil action. Criminal law requires proof 'beyond reasonable doubt' whereas civil law requires proof on the 'balance of probabilities'. Essentially less proof is required for civil cases.




Yes exactly, the point I was making means it's therefore a lot easier to go ahead with a civil case when the higher standard of proof has been reached in a criminal case - correct?


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## adscrim (21 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Another legal point: there is no need for a conviction to raise a civil action. Criminal law requires proof 'beyond reasonable doubt' whereas civil law requires proof on the 'balance of probabilities'. Essentially less proof is required for civil cases.




This surely means that if IMG were to not fill an assumed allocation of 3500 places, they could sue Mr Grosset for loss of revenue!

That, I would like to see (I'd like to see the roads full more).


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## Alves (21 May 2009)

namastebuzz said:


> The interesting possibility that arises here is that if this chap is convicted it could leave the way open to those who suffered to raise civil actions against him.
> People I know who were in the lead group would have had two damaged tyres, a few inner tubes and gas cylinders etc so £60 or £70 there each for starters.
> If EVERYBODY did this then he could face a very hefty bill indeed


How do you raise a civil action? I lost a front tyre, 2 inner tubes and shared out a pack of park glueless patches, cost £40.
What would be more interesting would be, if he made a gesture of a substantial donation to a cycling charity and cyclists agreed not to claim recompense.


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## Isla Valassi (22 May 2009)

Don't forget, emergency vehicles were also damaged. Pretty serious in itself.


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## Noodley (22 May 2009)

Isla Valassi said:


> Don't forget, emergency vehicles were also damaged. Pretty serious in itself.



2 motor cycles needed to be 'rescued' due to multiple punctures and a Traffic car had loads of tacks stuck in tyres.


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## Scoosh (22 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> 2 motor cycles needed to be 'rescued' due to multiple punctures and a Traffic car had loads of tacks stuck in tyres.


[adopts cynical tone]

Ah, now it's serious because motor vehicles (not just bicycles) are involved 



In truth, I don't believe this at all. I think the police and local authorities are dealing with this entirely properly and we will see a just decision.

When is he next up in court ?


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## Noodley (22 May 2009)

scoosh said:


> When is he next up in court ?



Bloody hell, do you think I have a crystal ball?! 

I could bore you to tears about legal times for diets but won't...suffice to say he'll be back before next years event.


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## andy_wrx (23 May 2009)

namastebuzz said:


> The interesting possibility that arises here is that if this chap is convicted it could leave the way open to those who suffered to raise civil actions against him.
> 
> People I know who were in the lead group would have had two damaged tyres, a few inner tubes and gas cylinders etc so £60 or £70 there each for starters.
> 
> ...





Alves said:


> How do you raise a civil action? I lost a front tyre, 2 inner tubes and shared out a pack of park glueless patches, cost £40.



Are you a member of CTC or BC or similar ?
- why not contact their legal aid dept and ask how they will help you claim for your loss and damages, in the same way as if you'd been in an accident with a car or wanted to claim against the council for crashing in a pothole ?

On BR, someone who is a CTC member says their legal aid dept is considering a class-action claim against this guy for the losses their members have suffered.


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## Scoosh (23 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Bloody hell, do you think I have a crystal ball?!


But of course 

I had been led to believe that the famous Noodley knew all things 

Is this an admission that *he doesn't* :?: :?: :?: 

In truth, I was wondering if he had been let out until a specific date - ie the court date. "Released (on bail) until xx date" type of report.


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## Will1985 (23 May 2009)

I wonder what would happen if a similar act was perpetrated in Monaco this weekend?!? It's a similar situation where the roads are closed for about 6 hours each on Thursday, Saturday and Sunday, once a year.


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## rossh (23 May 2009)

Will1985 said:


> I wonder what would happen if a similar act was perpetrated in Monaco this weekend?!? It's a similar situation where the roads are closed for about 6 hours each on Thursday, Saturday and Sunday, once a year.



I'm not against the Monaco Grand Prix, I just think it would be better if they had it on open roads.

PS Buy some gifts and chocolate.


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## gadgetmind (27 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Anyone know of a list of anti-event campaigners?



From what I read, no-one really seems to be anti-event, just anti the roads being closed for hours at a time. Various alternatives to closure were suggested, but all were rejected. I suspect they were rejected as the closed-road nature was part of the initial concept and no-one wanted to part with what they saw as their USP.

I'm a keen cyclist, and very much being cyclists rights. But I really do think it's important that everyone tries to understand the POV of others, and a key part of this is everyone being prepared to share key resources such as roads.

The locals seemed to be prepared to share their roads with cyclists, but the organisers of the event weren't prepared to share with locals and insisted on closure. What's so wrong about the tack incident is that it mostly affected those taking part in the event whereas it's the obstinacy of the event organisers that's driven the wedge between locals and cyclists.

Who knows where it will end? I hope that dialog over the coming year can find common ground and find a solution that works for all parties.

Ian


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## Waspie (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> The locals seemed to be prepared to share their roads with cyclists, but the organisers of the event weren't prepared to share with locals and insisted on closure.



I can understand why some people are irritated at the road closures but I find it difficult to see why the feelings go much further than irritation. The road I live is closed for 5 and a half hours this Sunday for the Edinburgh Marathon, I don't run in the marathon but I am quite happy to be a little inconvenienced so thousands of people can enjoy a great event. (I realise shutting a rural road is a little different from shutting urban roads)

I don't think closing a road for 4 hours in a year could really be seen as not 'sharing' the road. I'm sure roads are shut for longer over a year due to crashes etc.

Anyway, I'm not sure how safe it would be to keep the narrower roads open for motor vehicles given the volume of cyclists on some parts of the course the other week.


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## adscrim (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> But I really do think it's important that everyone tries to understand the POV of others, and a key part of this is everyone being prepared to share key resources such as roads.



I still don't understand why the closed road solution can't work for everyone. What is there that need to be done so badly on a specific day that can't be accomodated? Locals have 8-12 months notice of when the roads will be closed for half a day.

If emergency assistance was needed the road closure wouldn't stop it. I was passed easily by ambulances on two occassions and all those around me got out of the way in an appropriate manner.

Church services - parishioners could walk or cycle or indeed (as I believe happened at one church) the service could be moved to a later time.

Business losses - the event not only brings people into the area on the weekend, it brings them in weeks and months before the event. I myself passed through the area on my bike specifically becasue of the event, and stopped to eat in Aberfeldy. Our staff day out is at Highland Safari this year, after someone here was alerted to their presence at last years event.

Also, IMO, the event is too large to be held on open roads. Cars travelling in the same direction as the course would be forced to travel at the speed of the cyclist due to the number of them in the road leading to overtaking being largely unsafe. The likelyhood of this leading the dangerous overtaking is high and best avoided.


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## Crackle (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> From what I read, no-one really seems to be anti-event, just anti the roads being closed for hours at a time. Various alternatives to closure were suggested, but all were rejected. I suspect they were rejected as the closed-road nature was part of the initial concept and no-one wanted to part with what they saw as their USP.
> 
> I'm a keen cyclist, and very much being cyclists rights. But I really do think it's important that everyone tries to understand the POV of others, and a key part of this is everyone being prepared to share key resources such as roads.
> 
> ...



The solution is stay in for 3 or 4 hours. Where I lived in the highlands there was a yearly event on the one singletrack road, it was left open. A journey that took 20 mins took 2 hours with the event running. Only a moron would want to use the road at that time, far better to sit in the garden with a beer and watch it all go past. It's really not hard. I've no sympathy at all with that kind of local feeling, it's not like they're special or anything. Events happen everywhere, embrace them.


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## Waspie (27 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> Events happen everywhere, embrace them.



Couldn't agree more.

Except when they close the main road near my house on a Friday evening for a fancy dress parade and I'm faced with a two mile dash from the bus following a few post work beers.

There should be special contingency plans for forgetful drunk people with full bladders.


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## HLaB (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> The locals seemed to be prepared to share their roads with cyclists, but the organisers of the event weren't prepared to share with locals and insisted on closure.



Some of the roads could be shared but with 3,500 cyclists most of the roads would not be suitable. Its also 90% of the attraction of the event cyclist know they will be safer. There was a trajic article posted here recently where a TTrialer on open roads was knocked off his bike and killed.



adscrim said:


> Church services - parishioners could walk or cycle or indeed (as I believe happened at one church, the service could be moved.



I read one comment in a paper from one of the folks that lived along one of the closed roads, stating how good the Etape folk had treated her and her friends, running a special bus for them and treating them to breakfast in a hotel.


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## gillan (27 May 2009)

have acre (maybe facilitated by the Council?) not looked at experiences elsewhere i.e. mainland europe, where cycling events like close roads on a far more frequent basis

they could share experiences and learn way to acomodate the event with little disruption to their own lives and probably even a benefit (isn't this what 'twinning' was meant to acheive?)

i do have a slight beef with them (acre) insofar as the event is held on roads which are paid for by the taxpayer. Remote roads are far more expenisve to maintain for far fewer users. In effect a nice rural lifestyle is made affordable through the redistributive nature of the tax system

sometimes those that raise the taxes require some payback, e.g. a road closure order. If acre want an exclusive say as to what happens to the road, maybe they should pay for it themselves....

this is all that has happened here and only for 4 hours or so a year, with plenty of notice and to the benefit of up to £1m injection of money into the local economy


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## asterix (27 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> ..I've no sympathy at all with that kind of local feeling, it's not like they're special or anything. Events happen everywhere, embrace them.




Yup, having lived for many (many) years near York's racecourse we are well used to organising life around the hoards of racegoers, some drunken on racedays. It's all part of life's etc, and so forth.


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## Noodley (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> From what I read, no-one really seems to be anti-event, just anti the roads being closed for hours at a time.



That is the same as being anti-event. "Hours at a time" - surely you mean "for a few hours once a year"?


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## gadgetmind (27 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> That is the same as being anti-event



No, it really isn't. The local residents and businesses seem to have made it very clear that they are happy for the event to go ahead but want a few tweaks made. These tweaks would greatly reduce the negative social and economic impact of the event but wouldn't affect the enjoyment or fund raising aspects.

Take a look at the Great Yorkshire Bike Ride. Similar length, over 1500 people taking part, similar amounts (per head) raised for charity, but other road users aren't banned from the roads, so it receives pretty much universal support.

I don't live there, and have no intention of taking part, so I don't really have any great reason to pick "one side" or another. I just wish that the organisers would consider being a wee bit more understanding and flexible as there wouldn't really then be sides to pick.

Ian


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## Noodley (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> No, it really isn't. The local residents and businesses seem to have made it very clear that they are happy for the event to go ahead but want a few tweaks made.



Wrong again. A very few people who live locally are not happy - the majority are. The few cannot seem to get their head around the need for the roads to be closed for this event to be a success; as it would appear you can't. The USP of this event is closed roads. No closed roads = it's just not going to happen. So anti-closed roads = anti-event.


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## Noodley (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Take a look at the Great Yorkshire Bike Ride. Similar length, over 1500 people taking part, similar amounts (per head) raised for charity, but other road users aren't banned from the roads, so it receives pretty much universal support.



Okay I took a look. Not much similarity there at all really. 2000 less riders, organised by the CTC as a 'bike ride' not a sportive, from reading the 2008 report it would appear there were concerns raised about 2/3 riders riding abreast leadinf to impatience and potential accidents, plenty of alternative roads available....


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## gavintc (27 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Wrong again. A very few people who live locally are not happy - the majority are. The few cannot seem to get their head around the need for the roads to be closed for this event to be a success; as it would appear you can't. The USP of this event is closed roads. No closed roads = it's just not going to happen. So anti-closed roads = anti-event.




You are spot on Noodley. Some of route's roads are exceptionally narrow and would not take ONE car and ANY cyclists - single track with passing places. this event could not be run on the current roads without being a closed road event - just too dangerous.


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## rossh (27 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> These tweaks would greatly reduce the negative social and economic impact of the event but wouldn't affect the enjoyment or fund raising aspects.



Have to disagree. The chance of a car coming the opposite way would have reduced my enjoyment of the event. Sure, it would still have been a good day out but I would have to have ridden in a totally different way, sticking to the left and anticipating a car around every blind corner. You could argue that this is how we should have to ride but it doesn't change he fact that it's less enjoyable ...


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## gillan (27 May 2009)

"These tweaks would greatly reduce the negative social and economic impact of the event but wouldn't affect the enjoyment or fund raising aspects."

gadgetmind



there is a huge net economic gain to the area. Are you suggesting otherwise?What business are on the route and how much business do they do in that short 4-5 hour window on a May sunday morning?? must be pretty impressive

indeed so impressive to equal the probable £1m impact of this years event that with the income they must generate at other times of the year they should surely be moored off St Tropez, lunching with Berlusconi and having dinner with Abramovich

christ, pulling in those sorts of figures you would think they would need the holiday? 

ahh.....you mean a small economic loss to a few individuals which the Council have balanced against the far greater economic gain to the many....

would be a shame if the needs of so few were to impact on the well being of so many


social loss? would that be not being able to get to Church one sunday morning once a year....truelly tragic I grant you, but nothing an evening service couldn't sort out....besides, God isn't true

what about the social gain that another version of God seems to advocate on the Western Isles where nothing moves on a sunday?

come back when you're less confused...its an open and shut case


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## LeeW (27 May 2009)

If the roads were not closed, I would not have bothered going, and IHMO a good proportion of the other riders would not have bothered either.


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## gadgetmind (28 May 2009)

Well, looks like I'm in a minority with my view that this event could be better organised so as to avoid alientating the locals, so I guess I'd better just shut up!

But I do think that this kind of thing really does promote the idea that roads aren't for sharing, and that they are somehow to dangerous to be cycled on, both of which are completely contrary to what myself, many commuter cyclists and the CTC believe is the message that should be promoted.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (28 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> The few cannot seem to get their head around the need for the roads to be closed for this event to be a success; as it would appear you can't. The USP of this event is closed roads. No closed roads = it's just not going to happen. So anti-closed roads = anti-event.



It isn't a case of not being able to get my head around it, it's more than I can see both sides of the argument. Or at least I can up until the point that someone insists that it's essential that the roads be closed. Not only isn't it essential but it's being counter-productive. This event's so called USP is damaging its reputation and souring cyclist/local relationships.

I really do think that people should be prepared to go back to the drawing board on this one, decide what the goals are, and come up with a format that satisfies those goals and presents a reasonable compromise between those riding and those living in the area.

In the case of the current event, the tail seems to have wagged the dog and "The Roads Must Be Closed" seems to have been the underlying and unchangeable mantra.

Ian


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## Noodley (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Well, looks like I'm in a minority with my view that this event could be better organised so as to avoid alientating the locals, so I guess I'd better just shut up!
> 
> But I do think that this kind of thing really does promote the idea that roads aren't for sharing, and that they are somehow to dangerous to be cycled on, both of which are completely contrary to what myself, many commuter cyclists and the CTC believe is the message that should be promoted.
> 
> Ian



Roads are for sharing, but no necessarily all the time. A bit like ice-cream  Roads are fine for sharing when commuting, etc. But in this case it is a sportive event with a USP of closed roads. I cycle the same roads during audax events a few time every year and there is no need to close the roads due to the number of people involved (40 or so). But 3500 cyclists on country roads in a sportive is another matter all together. Not all cycling is the same. Not all roads are the same.

This event is not alienating "the locals". It has annoyed a very small number of people who live locally. I recall seeing a protest outside a council meeting and there were 5 protesters. And I think one of them just happened to be walking past at the time the photo was taken...there is no huge anti-event movement, just a small number of people who do not like not getting their own way.


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## MichaelM (28 May 2009)

gillan said:



> indeed so impressive to equal the probable £1m impact of this years event...



You'll have to excuse my affliction, but the first thing that springs to mind when I see figures like this being quoted is that for 3000 riders, that's around £333 per rider going into the local economy (that doesn't include the cost of getting there or the entrance fee).

Maybe you're right and I'm just being a tight arse but it seems a bit steep to me.

(nothing to do with closed/open roads I know -I'm all for closing the roads myself.)


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## Noodley (28 May 2009)

MichaelM said:


> I'm all for closing the roads myself.



So was the man with the tacks!


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## MichaelM (28 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> So was the man with the tacks!



Nice one


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## gadgetmind (28 May 2009)

I did enjoy the tack puns. Let's go back to the tack puns. :-)
Ian


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## adscrim (28 May 2009)

MichaelM said:


> You'll have to excuse my affliction, but the first thing that springs to mind when I see figures like this being quoted is that for 3000 riders, that's around £333 per rider going into the local economy



£1m may be a little on the high side but should still be fairly close to the mark. You need to remember that a large number of those taking part will have brought spectators with them and those spectators will pay for accomodation and meals for pretty much the whole weekend. I'm from Perth and a group of friends and family decided to come and see the finish/soak up the atmosphere. They spent easily £200 having lunch and mooching around the shops. We then all went to eat together in Dunkeld. That with the £50 I spent in escape route on the Saturday and I've reached the £300 mark without even staying in Pitlochry.


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## adscrim (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I did enjoy the tack puns. Let's go back to the tack puns. :-)
> Ian



I think you're missing the point!


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## rossh (28 May 2009)

MichaelM said:


> You'll have to excuse my affliction, but the first thing that springs to mind when I see figures like this being quoted is that for 3000 riders, that's around £333 per rider going into the local economy (that doesn't include the cost of getting there or the entrance fee).
> 
> Maybe you're right and I'm just being a tight arse but it seems a bit steep to me.
> 
> (nothing to do with closed/open roads I know -I'm all for closing the roads myself.)



Hmm, I can get to about £500 quite quickly for myself and one spectator:

Aberfeldy accommondation £220
Aberfeldy 2 x evening meals £120
Pitlochry 2 x lunches £40
Watermill Bookshop Aberfeldy £15
Escape Route Pitlochry £25
Coop Aberfeldy £25
L*****s of G*******y £25


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## Scoosh (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I don't live there, and have no intention of taking part, so I don't really have any great reason to pick "one side" or another. I just wish that the organisers would consider being a wee bit more understanding and flexible as there wouldn't really then be sides to pick.
> 
> Ian


With due respect, I think that you are lacking any knowledge of the local area. I have holidayed in Pitlochry more times than I can count, have driven, cycled or walked all of the Etape roads many times over.

- fabulous, quiet, peaceful area, with wonderful picnic spots right beside the lochs. Absolutely.
- 'single track road with passing places' (the sign at the roadside) ? Everywhere
- fast driving roads, where overtaking is easy ? NOT AT ALL

Quite simply put (and the point made by many others), this event can not be held in its present (sportive, timed) form unless the roads are closed. It would not be safe for the cyclists - NOR FOR THE LOCAL PEOPLE, who are probably unaware just how fast a modern bike, with fit rider, can go.

As I have said in previous posts:
- the root of this is 2 or 3 local communities not getting on with each other
- the 'value to the local community' figure is nearer £440,000, not £1M
- the number of protestors is very low, in relation to the population

It's not really about 'cylists' rights' or 'closed roads' - it's about democracy and lawful protest. The protestors claim that their voice is never listened to. Ring any bells, people of Britain ???


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## gadgetmind (28 May 2009)

scoosh said:


> this event can not be held in its present (sportive, timed) form unless the roads are closed.



I guess that's what happens when you choose the wrong format and then try and force the local environment and community to fit. Square pegs in round holes, etc.

Some flexibility regards format could keep everyone happy. But I doubt it will happen. :-(

Ian


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## MichaelM (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I guess that's what happens when you choose the wrong format and then try and force the local environment and community to fit. Square pegs in round holes, etc.
> 
> Some flexibility regards format could keep everyone happy. But I doubt it will happen. :-(
> 
> Ian



What sort of flexibility are you looking for?


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## Crackle (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I guess that's what happens when you choose the wrong format and then try and force the local environment and community to fit. Square pegs in round holes, etc.
> 
> Some flexibility regards format could keep everyone happy. But I doubt it will happen. :-(
> 
> Ian




Speaking from experience, there are quite a lot of square pegs living in these communities. You'd really have to live there to understand it. Whilst the majority of folks are very nice, the vociferous few tend to reign over everything, no flexibility in the world will accommodate them. It's their way or not on their highway


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## snorri (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Some flexibility regards format could keep everyone happy.


If you try to keep everyone happy someone's not going to like it.


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## gadgetmind (28 May 2009)

MichaelM said:


> What sort of flexibility are you looking for?



Personally, I'm not looking for any.

The good people of Perthshire would seem to want whatever level of flexibility is required to ensure that the roads aren't closed. Perhaps some flexibility modelled around what the many other UK events do to achieve their goals without having road closures as an absolute requirement. I believe they used staged starts to avoid congestion and they also encourage riders to be observation of and considerate to other road users.

I'll probably be riding 90 miles on Sunday, and we'll be using the magic of "car up!" to avoid inconveniencing other road users. We could ask the good people of the towns and villages we'll be passing through to close the roads for us, but this being Yorkshire, I reckon we'd get some pretty blunt responses!

Ian


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## yello (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> The good people of Perthshire would seem to want whatever level of flexibility is required to ensure that the roads aren't closed.



'No road closures' doesn't sound like a text book definition of flexibility to me. 

From what others have said, there are many good people of Perthshire who had no objection. If it's to be believed then many more than had an objection.

Sadly, with just about event there will be a level of disruption or inconvenience to someone. Whilst I recognise your desire to avoid that Ian, I just don't think it's possible. Someone will always complain. You must have experienced something along those lines at some time or other.


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## Crackle (28 May 2009)

Gadgetmind, have you ridden these singletrack roads? Where I lived there was some kind of Audax going through, probably about 30 riders strung out. It took me a good 10 minutes of nipping in and out of passing places to get past them. Luckily they had the courtesy to wait behind me when another car was coming and I had to wait, if they'd gone past I'd never have got past them, it's just impractical to try and do that past 3500 bikes. Even as a single cyclist on those roads cars have to wait in passing places you can't get a car and a bike past most of the time.


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## MichaelM (28 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> The good people of Perthshire would seem to want whatever level of flexibility is required to ensure that the roads aren't closed.
> 
> Ian



**** me that's funny.


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## gillan (28 May 2009)

scoosh

the value you quote £440 is based on last year's event which had approximatley half the number of participants

i merely doubled the amount to get £1m

gadgetmind

this is a bit like a planning application

there are often some people whio are adversley affected by a development, sometimes incredibly so e.g. quarry development near house. A Council needs to weight up the benefit of the development and for the wider society against the very localised impacts. In this case the impacts are to so few and so small and the gains that big that its actually, I belive the term is, a no-brainer


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## ferret fur (28 May 2009)

Gadgetmind: Quite frankly you really have to look at the detail to realize how obtuse some of the antis objections are: Let's start with the claim that they are 'imprisoned' in their houses with no sense that individuals could work around the 3-4 hours of road closure on a Sunday. The whole of Highland Perthshire being closed down for the weekend when a few small backroads are closed for a Sunday morning: The wide variety of medical ailments which prevented people getting to hospital on that particular morning including an ambulance which didn't arrive for *8 *hours when someone had a stroke. etc etc. 
I don't think that as a cyclist I have a right to impose my minority sport on an unwilling majority. Nor do I have a right to completely disrupt the lives of a small minority. However, as has been repeated above, the objectors are a small intransigent, bloody minded group who object purely because they want to get their own way. No matter what. They don't represent 'local opinion' nor are they willing to realistically compromise. In a way all this shows how 'terrorism' (in the loosest sense of the word, & by that I just mean taking direct action) is highly successful. Without being in possession of the facts, people end up thinking 'well, they must have a good reason for doing this'. They don't.


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## Scoosh (28 May 2009)

gillan said:


> scoosh
> 
> the value you quote £440 is based on last year's event which had approximatley half the number of participants
> 
> i merely doubled the amount to get £1m


No worries, now I understand  !

I was just trying to make sure we didn't end up with "cyclists' exaggeration syndrome" 


By the way, that hill I climbed on Sunday was at least 32%


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## HJ (28 May 2009)

scoosh said:


> By the way, that hill I climbed on Sunday was at least 32%



That'll be the one I passed you on...


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## Scoosh (28 May 2009)

Hairy Jock said:


> That'll be the one I passed you on...


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## Fab Foodie (28 May 2009)

MichaelM said:


> **** me that's funny.




You couldn't make it up...


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> Gadgetmind, have you ridden these singletrack roads?



I've ridden on a lot of singletrack roads, usually alone, but occasionally with a group of other cyclists. When a car comes from behind, you pull in and let them past. With 3500 cyclists this could be tricky which is why you probably need a staged start.

I'm sure the good people of Perthshire will understand that going might be slower than usual, but the choice they are being offered is this or being totally banned from the roads. Oh no, hang on, they aren't being offered a choice at all. :-(

By the way, how many similar events are there in the UK on an annual basis? Is there a list somewhere? It would be interesting to see how these other events solve these kinds of problems without causing such disruption.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

ferret fur said:


> I don't think that as a cyclist I have a right to impose my minority sport on an unwilling majority. Nor do I have a right to completely disrupt the lives of a small minority.



Yes, that's the way I see it too.

Ian


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## Noodley (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> With 3500 cyclists this could be tricky which is why you probably need a staged start.



Priceless! 

And FYI they do have staged start.


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## Noodley (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Yes, that's the way I see it too.



As I had said previously it is not an unwilling majority. It is an unwilling minority who are not used to not getting their own way. The majority of residents in Perthshire support this event.


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## Crackle (29 May 2009)

Gadgetmind, if you are not already a memeber of ACRE you should join. Here are some of the other members in a publicity shoot before the start of the Etape.


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## Will1985 (29 May 2009)

What's the difference between the Etape and a local marathon or half marathon? Absolutely nothing really - both experience closures for a similar amount of time, but runners get closed roads far more often. If you call cycling a minority sport, then what is marathon running? Remind me how many medals the athletics squad won in Beijing??

Gadgetmind - have you ever ridden a sportive? The groups thin out very quickly as it is, and a staged start would actually exacerbate the problem by prolonging the closures.

An Etape on open roads is just asking for trouble in so many ways. You'll have the chavs out harassing cyclists in one direction and oncoming 4x4s taking up the whole of a singletrack road causing everything to stop. I wouldn't pay to ride something like that.


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## rossh (29 May 2009)

Will1985 said:


> An Etape on open roads is just asking for trouble in so many ways. You'll have the chavs out harassing cyclists in one direction and oncoming 4x4s taking up the whole of a singletrack road causing everything to stop. I wouldn't pay to ride something like that.



The first one would certainly be a nightmare because you'd have the 15 members of ACRE and their pals driving up and down constantly to prove how much essential business they have been kept from in the past.


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## adscrim (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I'm sure the good people of Perthshire will understand that going might be slower than usual, but the choice they are being offered is this or being totally banned from the roads. Oh no, hang on, they aren't being offered a choice at all. :-(



They are being offered a choice. Wait a couple of hours or go about your business by foot or on bicycle.

Also, it worth noting that it is not the good people of Perthshire that are involved here. It's a very few of the grumpy bar stewards of Perthshire.


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## gillan (29 May 2009)

gadget

apply a modicum of logic

your approach would mean……

no tour de france

no giro, no vuelta, no roubaix

no London marathon, no new york marathon

no urban 10k fun runs

no road works

no rio carnival 

no notting hill carnival

no royal wedding celebrations (if you like that sort of thing), no diana funeral procession (probably much beloved of acre spokesperson)

I could go on but its rather tedious

All of the above require a degree of restriction of movement by those affected as we, as a society through our elected representatives, have decided that the sacrifice that a few need to make is less than the overall benefit of what necessitates the road closure in the first place

Its very simple………

As an aside, the road in question is very quiet. The ‘anti-democratic’ Council in question will go and clear it when there is heavy snow (admittedly less of an occurrence these days) or grit it when there is ice. This at a far higher cost than roads in more populated areas and at a cost which would be impossible for residents to manage on their own.. Do the residents of Perth complain about this? Not everyone has the right to do everything all of the time. This is how a ‘civilised’ society works

Please think before typing….


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> Gadgetmind, if you are not already a memeber of ACRE you should join.



I'm not in their area so don't really want to get involved.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

Will1985 said:


> If you call cycling a minority sport, then what is marathon running? Remind me how many medals the athletics squad won in Beijing??



If you're asking me, then don't bother. I have zero interest in sport.



> Gadgetmind - have you ever ridden a sportive?



Not yet, but I might join the Great Yorkshire Bike Ride one year. Dunno if it counts as a "sportive" - hard to find a definition of what one of these actually is.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

gillan said:


> Please think before typing….



I have been doing, thanks, and I still find myself in the position of being able to emphasis with the locals regards their access to the roads far more than others here seem to. I'm sure some of the locals would still regards me as some kind of pro-cycling nutter, and maybe the more extreme here think that I'm in some way anti-cycling. I guess that makes me a moderate. 

As it happens, I live very close to the route of the Leeds Marathon. Yes, it can be a pain, and some junctions are closed, but the vast majority of the roads are open and the joggers are paused at major junctions to allow traffic to pass. Signage is variable but was slightly better this year and overall the planning seems OK with the transport needs of non-competitiors being taken into consideration.

I'm sure that if the Leeds Marathon planners had gone into the planning process with their blinkers on, determined that every road should be closed entirely for the duration because that was the USP of the event, then things would be different.

Ian


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## adscrim (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I have been doing, thanks, and I still find myself in the position of being able to emphasis with the locals regards their access to the roads far more than others here seem to. I'm sure some of the locals would still regards me as some kind of pro-cycling nutter, and maybe the more extreme here think that I'm in some way anti-cycling. I guess that makes me a moderate.
> 
> As it happens, I live very close to the route of the Leeds Marathon. Yes, it can be a pain, and some junctions are closed, but the vast majority of the roads are open and the joggers are paused at major junctions to allow traffic to pass. Signage is variable but was slightly better this year and overall the planning seems OK with the transport needs of non-competitiors being taken into consideration.
> 
> ...




Ian

Are you aware that those against the event make up only a small percentage of the local population and that the roads are not closed entirely for the duration of the event?

Roads are closed in stages and are normally re-opened at a set time (based on maximum course completion time) to minimise the disruption. Also, the event starts at 7am so that the majority of the course will be re-open by noon. The longest any section of road is closed being 4 hrs.


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## adscrim (29 May 2009)

adscrim said:


> The longest any section of road is closed being 4 hrs.




Incidently, I believe the section of road where the accused tacker lives (I believe) is closed for 2hr 20m and re-opens before 10.


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## Noodley (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> ....determined that every road should be closed entirely for the duration because that was the USP of the event, then things would be different.



The road is not closed entirely for the duration. And the use of 'every road' gives the impression you think there is more than one!


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

adscrim said:


> Are you aware that those against the event make up only a small percentage of the local population



What do you mean by "those against the event"? The only objections I have seen have been to the road closures rather than to an event being held. In fact, those objecting to the closures seem to have gone out of their way to make it clear that they support the event and that they are even prepared to help out with it.

BTW, this issue is also being discussed on the CTC forum. As you might expect with it being a forum for keen cyclists, it has a strong bias against the interests of the locals, but there does seem to be a wee bit more balance than in the discussions here.

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24914

Ian


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> And the use of 'every road' gives the impression you think there is more than one!



If there is one road, and that road is closed, then every road is closed!

BTW, does anyone know for sure whether the closure is just to motor vehicles? Are the locals still free to cycle around if they so desire or is it a complete lock-down? I've seen conflicting statements on this one.

Ian


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## gillan (29 May 2009)

gadget

i've ridden it

its only marshaled at the junctions you could move about freely on bike even if you're not officially allowed to (although not sure on this

does seem funny to be talking of the road being 'closed' when it has the most people on it (by a country mile) all year....

It's a public road owned and paid for by the taxpayer

you are aware of that??


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## gillan (29 May 2009)

ps

how do you feel about the compulsory purchase system BTW?

surely an infringement to individual liberty to dwarf this issue?


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## adscrim (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> What do you mean by "those against the event"? The only objections I have seen have been to the road closures rather than to an event being held. In fact, those objecting to the closures seem to have gone out of their way to make it clear that they support the event and that they are even prepared to help out with it.



I mean those who wish to see the event changed. This is a closed road event. If you remove that from the equation it is no longer the same event. Therefore, if you are against the road closure you are against the event.


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## Noodley (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> As you might expect with it being a forum for keen cyclists, it has a strong bias against the interests of the locals...



You are not listening at all. And you appear to have put a considerably amount of effort into making your ill-informed views known for someone with little interest in sporting or Perthshire matters!


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## Noodley (29 May 2009)

adscrim said:


> I mean those who wish to see the event changed. This is a closed road event. If you remove that from the equation it is no longer the same event. Therefore, if you are against the road closure you are against the event.



He's been told that many times. He still does not appear to listen or to understand.

Maybe cos he and his mates all manage to move over and let the all important cars go past them all the time. Shared roads eh?


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## yello (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> there does seem to be a wee bit more balance than in the discussions here.



And by balance you mean people that will agree with you. It's clear that's not really going to happen. I think you've made your position clear - you empathise with those few locals that felt inconvenienced. That's fine, and I'm sure many people here would prefer that no-one was inconvenienced too. But that - as has been pointed out frequently - simply does not happen; ever. Have you anything else to say?


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

yello said:


> Have you anything else to say?



Probably not. I really don't seem to be making much progress in getting people here to see both sides of the issue, so why bother further?

Ian


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

adscrim said:


> Therefore, if you are against the road closure you are against the event.



No, you are simply against the event in the exact form that it's in now. If someone wants to take this and use it to brand someone else "anti-Etape" or "anti-cycling" then there's no way to effectively prevent that other than to point out that it's a serious distortion of the truth.

Remember, I'm very pro cycling. I make many trips by bicycle every day, rarely drive, and am a member of various local Cycling leisure/action groups. However, I don't get involved in things like Critical Mass as I think it does more harm than good. Cyclists need to "play nicely" with other people as doing the contrary really is counter-productive and turns people against cyclists.

Which is where this whole conversation started.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (29 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Maybe cos he and his mates all manage to move over and let the all important cars go past them all the time. Shared roads eh?



Yes, shared roads and consideration for others. I guess we could ride several abreast and block other traffic, but what would that really achieve? Is it really your view that we shouldn't move over? 

Ian


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## yello (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I really don't seem to be making much progress in getting people here to see both sides of the issue



I think you're wrong there. I think both sides are seen it's just that people here have decided differently to you.


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## yello (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Cyclists need to "play nicely" with other people as doing the contrary really is counter-productive and turns people against cyclists.



On open roads, I would agree with you. But I think you are confusing issues. We are talking here about a cycling event that has been sanctioned by the powers that be. It is clear that events of any kind inconvenience some people, always will. The issue is whether that's acceptable and under what circumstances.


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## gavintc (29 May 2009)

There are many many open road sportives held throughout UK. The ONLY reason Etape Caledonia gets more than a few hundred cyclists is simply because it is on a closed road. Lets be honest about this - Pitlochry is a long way for most to drive to The road used is very narrow, much narrower than normal roads on a sportive. I for one, would not enter this ride as an open road event. Indeed, I do not think the organisers would even consider it - it would be simply too dangerous. You cannot run cars and cyclists down this route at the same time. 

So, we get to the heart of the comments here. If you are not pro-closed road - you are anti-event.


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## Noodley (29 May 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Cyclists need to "play nicely" with other people as doing the contrary really is counter-productive and turns people against cyclists.



So are you saying all cyclists should do as we are told by a minority of people who do not want us to do something as it is an inconvenience to them? What about compulsory helmet wearing? Compulsory cycle paths? 

If you are willing to roll over then that's your choice. I play by the rules of the road. I am considerate to other road users. 

I still don't think you are listening very well to others: 

This event is only an event as it is run on a road which is closed for a period of time. There is no way it would be an event if the road was not closed. Not really promoting cycling then is it? 

If you cannot get your head round this you are not being very aware of a type of cycling beyond your type of cycling.


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## Mr Celine (29 May 2009)

The Jim Clark Rally was held on public roads around Duns last weekend.

Were roads closed to motor vehicles?
No. They were closed to *all* vehicles *and* pedestrians.

Did the closures last for 3 hours?
No. They lasted for up to 5 hours.

Were the roads just closed on Sunday?
No. They were closed on Friday, Saturday *and* Sunday.

Was it free for the public to watch this event?
Only if you live alongside the route.

Was anyone inconvenienced?
More people than were allegedly trapped in their homes in Perthshire.

Did anyone moan about it?
No. They either watch it, take part in it or just put up with it. Those inconvenienced know that this disruption is only once a year and helps to keep others in their community in business.


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## Steve Austin (30 May 2009)

I know i'm a cyclist and a fan of most sport, but i would be pleased as punch for any event to go past my house. who cares if the roads are closed for a day, there is more to life. 
Folk really need to put this into perspective, I mean how many days do you spend a whole day in your house without going anywhere? If the perps could just take a step back and realise this is a great event and worth a lot more to others than their petty minded attitudes.

If only I lived a bit closer as i would love to ride this event, just to show unity against those who object to it.


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## Fab Foodie (30 May 2009)

Steve Austin said:


> I know i'm a cyclist and a fan of most sport, but i would be pleased as punch for any event to go past my house. who cares if the roads are closed for a day, there is more to life.
> Folk really need to put this into perspective, I mean how many days do you spend a whole day in your house without going anywhere? If the perps could just take a step back and realise this is a great event and worth a lot more to others than their petty minded attitudes.
> 
> 
> ...


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## asterix (30 May 2009)

A while ago I rode the route that a TdF stage was to take a fortnight or so later. At the start of the road over Puy Mary the snow signs said it was shut. Since there was no snow anywhere else and my alternative was very long way round, I ignored the signs and carried on.

Nearing the pass an ever-increasing number of heavy lorries thundered by, carrying tarmac and when I finally reached the foot of Puy Mary I realised they were resurfacing the road all the way up to the summit. At the scene of operations it was like hell, the heat from tar, the demonic activity of those doing the work and the noise..

Fortunately I was able to get through, just but I have never seen roadworks being done at such a pace, almost entirely for a stage of the TdF. I reckon that road must have been shut for nearly 3 weeks.


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## Ranger (30 May 2009)

Mr Celine said:


> The Jim Clark Rally was held on public roads around Duns last weekend.
> 
> Were roads closed to motor vehicles?
> No. They were closed to *all* vehicles *and* pedestrians.
> ...



In my area we have T in the Park, also rural Perth and Kinross-shire (no such place as Perthshire I'll have you know) 

Road are closed Thursday night and do not reopen until Monday, those that are not closed are full of traffic meaning I can not really leave the house for 5 days. I don't get to see/hear any of it.

I cope by booking those days off work, getting in a stash of alcohol/snacks/dvd and spend it as a holiday with absolutely no way of doing diy or being descended on by relatives. 

It's great


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## MichaelM (30 May 2009)

Ranger said:


> In my area we have T in the Park, also rural Perth and Kinross-shire (no such place as Perthshire I'll have you know)
> 
> Road are closed Thursday night and do not reopen until Monday, those that are not closed are full of traffic meaning I can not really leave the house for 5 days. I don't get to see/hear any of it.
> 
> ...



I don't even get free tickets now that the Golf Ball has closed ! 

I think it's a fantastic event, more than happy to see the thousands of festival goers having a good time.

(For Tayside, read Kinross)


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## yello (30 May 2009)

asterix said:


> I have never seen roadworks being done at such a pace, almost entirely for a stage of the TdF. I reckon that road must have been shut for nearly 3 weeks.



Same around here last year. Aigurande (the start of a stage) town centre was the scene of road works for weeks! They ripped up the old road (and it was in good nick already, far better than a lot of the other roads around here!) and laid a velvet like bitumen replacement. It's heaven to ride on btw!

But cycling is the national sport in France and the attitudes couldn't be more different. In the sportive I road in last Saturday, marshals closed roads and junctions - they don't ask the locals, they just do it! It's bad luck if it inconveniences someone! I personally have only heard 2 complaints about it - both from ex-pat Brits!


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## Crackle (30 May 2009)

I did wonder how many ACRE members were from the area and how many were incomers.


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## Noodley (30 May 2009)

Crackle said:


> I did wonder how many ACRE members were from the area and how many were incomers.



I have only heard one ACRE member interviewed and he did not sound 'native', I could not place his accent but it was distinctly English rather than Scottish. Which is quite strange, given the anti-London anti-incomer tone of some of their publicity.... 

I'm sure there are loads of other 'incomers' very supportive of the event


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## Alves (30 May 2009)

Just back from a tour of the West (midge) Coast and visited my folks in Pitlochry on the way back (I grew up there and I'm a cyclist so I'm a little biased). The local rumour/gossip is that Mr Grosset is going to plead Not Guilty.
Presumably on the grounds that he didn't do it, it can't be proved or he was somehow mentally incapable or not of sound mind at the time.
This is going to be interesting.
I still plan to take a civil action against this man for the cost of 2 new inners, a packet of glueless patches and a new Michelin Krylion.
Still have to work out how, so if anyone knows, do share.


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## Noodley (30 May 2009)

Alves said:


> I still plan to take a civil action against this man for the cost of 2 new inners, a packet of glueless patches and a new Michelin Krylion.



Alves, no help re civil action but PC Plod was enquiring if any riders could provide details of damage etc to them. There was a thread started giving details:
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=35128

P.S. how were the toilets on the way down from Inverness?


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## Crackle (30 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> I'm sure there are loads of other 'incomers' very supportive of the event



I'm sure you're right, my views are probably a bit jaded.


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## Alves (31 May 2009)

Noodley said:


> Alves, no help re civil action but PC Plod was enquiring if any riders could provide details of damage etc to them. There was a thread started giving details:
> http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=35128
> 
> P.S. how were the toilets on the way down from Inverness?



Have replied to the PC.
PS The disabled toilets at Ralia are luxurious and used for a nice wash and water.
There is a good balcony which provides shelter but I didn't kip there in the end, gorgeous evening/dusk over Drumochter, killer head wind!


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## Steve Austin (31 May 2009)

Alves said:


> Just back from a tour of the West (midge) Coast and visited my folks in Pitlochry on the way back (I grew up there and I'm a cyclist so I'm a little biased). The local rumour/gossip is that Mr Grosset is going to plead Not Guilty.
> Presumably on the grounds that he didn't do it, it can't be proved or he was somehow mentally incapable or not of sound mind at the time.
> This is going to be interesting.
> I still plan to take a civil action against this man for the cost of 2 new inners, a packet of glueless patches and a new Michelin Krylion.
> Still have to work out how, so if anyone knows, do share.



you could take a small claim out against him
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/small_claims.htm

You will need to write to the person you are making a claim against first as it won't get anywhere in court without it. Of course, the defendant may deny any responsibility for any damage, and if so, it will be impossible to claim against him. Of course if he is charged, then he will have been held responsible and i can foresee many claims 

I'm happy to advise anyone anyone about this, if you want. PM would be better


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## snorri (31 May 2009)

Steve Austin said:


> you could take a small claim out against him
> http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/small_claims.htm
> I'm happy to advise anyone anyone about this, if you want. PM would be better


Well, that won't work for a start,English law does not apply.


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## Steve Austin (31 May 2009)

oops forgot about that


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## Steve Austin (31 May 2009)

here we go. the Scottish version
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/scotl...mall_claims_in_the_sheriff_court_scotland.htm

looks the same tbh


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## gavintc (31 May 2009)

I do not wish to deflate enthusiasm for the small claims system. However, I chatted this through with my brother (an Edinburgh lawyer). Apparently, the cost to make the claim will be about £35. He was also not certain whether the secondary costs (entry fee, accommodation) would be reasonable. I may still make a claim, as I think it is the principle rather than the actual financial benefit to me (actually my wife, as I did not ride). I will probably take a punt for a night's accommodation, entry fee and the inner tubes and see what happens. Of course, I will have to wait until someone has been successfully prosecuted and found guilty.


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## yello (31 May 2009)

gavintc said:


> Of course, I will have to wait until someone has been successfully prosecuted and found guilty.



Indeed. And if that does not happen with this guy (which is of course possible) I can hardly see MI6 being called into an investigation!


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## gadgetmind (2 Jun 2009)

Well, I'm feeling mightily chilled after the weekend. Some good riding in great weather with some very pleasant company. I did 100 miles total, though honesty forces me to admit that I didn't actually do a "century". A few miles on Saturday doing some shopping and then 96.5 miles on Sunday, but not too shoddy given that I was on my Brompton.

Anyway, I feel that the issues surrounding the Perthshire ride have probably been aired enough. There are clearly some *very* deeply held views on this matter and this is making it difficult to have an open discussion regards closed roads (!) without risking aggitiating someone, which has certainly never been my intention.

Ian


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## gillan (3 Jun 2009)

gadgetminded

the very deeply held views on display are from ACRE. These views relate to the needs of the (very)few outweighing the needs of the (very) many

the only deeply held views to be aired on this forum are that the needs of the many should normally outweigh the needs of the few

this is the fundamental issue and one which most societies tend to balance in the favour of the latter.....

We are all inconvenienced to some degree everyday so that others can go about their business. Its called living in a free society...

ACRE has produced no overriding reason as to why this basic principle should be overturned...can you?


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

gillan said:


> the very deeply held views on display are from ACRE.



There certainly seems to be a strength of feeling there (people get very defensive of their communities, as you might expect) but they do seem to have been prepared to engage in dialog. But the dialog never seemed to happen.



> the only deeply held views to be aired on this forum are that the needs of the many should normally outweigh the needs of the few



That's not how properly held planning consultations tend to work. Yes, you invite input from all parties, but you also weight this input based on how far away someone is from the area. So, if you complain about a planning application by your next door neighbour. it will be taken seriously. Object to a conservatory on a house 100 miles away, and it won't have the same affect.

Importantly, these issues are never judged purely on weight of numbers. And it's also worth noting that the outcome isn't usually a black and white thing. These issues don't have to be one side against another: they don't have to be played as a zero sum game. Everyone can benefit if a sensible compromise can be reached, and this means everyone has to be prepared to be flexible and to "give a little".

What I have personally found disturbing during this discussion is the view that the Perthshire cycling event can't be changed without being scrapped entirely.

BTW, the Great Yokshire Bike Ride is on in a couple of weeks and this weekend I was chatting to some people taking part. They reckon the numbers will be closer to 2000 this year, it's all on open roads, and this works very well as the event is carefully planned and organised.

What was also interesting was that everyone I spoke to was cycling to the starting point and then coming back by bus/cycle. This is nice to see as cycling events that actually encourage people to make long trips by car to/from the start have always caused me to raise a questioning eyebrow. I guess this is mostly a matter of setting the size of the event such that most people taking part can come from the local catchement area.

Ian


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## ferret fur (3 Jun 2009)

But gadgetmind, the event organisers 'have given a little' .. moving start times upping the average speed, changing the date, putting on the Abefeldy cycling festival so they don't miss out on the trade. The reason why some people are getting worked up is that they keep pointing out flaws in your argument which you completely avoid responding to. 

It isn't that the event will have to be scrapped entirely, but that it wouldn't be the same event. ie a high speed mass participation sportive. The Great Yorkshire Bike Ride is _nothing_ to do with a sportive. It is similar to the London Brighton or the Pedal For Scotland events. It doesn't feature large groups of riders who are pushing for a best time. It is like saying why does the London Marathon have to have closed roads? I have been a sponsored walk and they didn't need to close the roads.


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

> the event organisers 'have given a little' ..



That's all quite encouraging. Hopefully, the discussions over the next year will make further progress. But the organisers announcment straight after this year's event read a wee bit like, "We're doing it again next year and we'll be closing the roads again", though I might have read it wrong.



> The reason why some people are getting worked up is that they keep pointing out flaws in your arguemnt which you completely avoid responding to.



Some messages are quite long so there are times were I haven't commented on them point by point. Sorry if I missed something relevant.



ferret fur said:


> It isn't that the event will have to be scrapped entirely, but that it wouldn't be the same event. ie a high speed mass participation sportive.



I'm not sure you're right, but even if you are, does that actually matter? I raised the question some time ago regards whether the goals for the event had been agreed before the format was set in stone but I didn't see a response. As long as everyone has a good time, as long as plenty of money is raised for charity, then haven't the major goals been met?

As for "high speed" and "mass participation", these aspects can certainly be retained. Dunno about "sportive" - how do you define that?



> The Great Yorkshire Bike Ride is _nothing_ to do with a sportive.



If you say so, but it is mass participation, people can ride quickly if that's what they want, and it raises lots of money for charity.

BTW, I did find a pretty big list of "sportives" here -
http://www.cyclosport.org/events2009.aspx

If I have time this weekend, I'll check a few and see if they close any roads for them, but I doubt it.

Ian


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> If I have time this weekend, I'll check a few and see if they close any roads for them, but I doubt it.
> 
> Ian



Precisely, this is what makes the Etape Caledonia a bit special. But I think you know this.
I couldn't be arsed travelling all the way to Pitlochry to ride on open roads, I can do that anytime.


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

dodgy said:


> Precisely, this is what makes the Etape Caledonia a bit special. But I think you know this.



They claimed it was, "Britain's first closed road cycle race for the ordinary cylist", but the nature of "firsts" is both that people use creative language to be first at something and also that there can be others afterwards. So, best to check.



> I couldn't be arsed travelling all the way to Pitlochry to ride on open roads, I can do that anytime.



I don't know how far people travel to the many other sportives that take place in Britain. Some a fair distance, I'd guess. (And I'm pretty conflicted on how I feel about that.)

Ian


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2009)

I get the impression that you're not really reading any of the posts on here gadgetmind?


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## gillan (3 Jun 2009)

"_That's not how properly held planning consultations tend to work. Yes, you invite input from all parties, but you also weight this input based on how far away someone is from the area. So, if you complain about a planning application by your next door neighbour. it will be taken seriously. Object to a conservatory on a house 100 miles away, and it won't have the same affect.

Importantly, these issues are never judged purely on weight of numbers. And it's also worth noting that the outcome isn't usually a black and white thing. These issues don't have to be one side against another: they don't have to be played as a zero sum game. Everyone can benefit if a sensible compromise can be reached, and this means everyone has to be prepared to be flexible and to "give a little".

What I have personally found disturbing during this discussion is the view that the Perthshire cycling event can't be changed without being scrapped entirely."_

Gadget

you've maybe not done too much planning work..

next door neighbours who complain about planning applications are usually given less weight ...well they would complain woudn't they. It even has its own acronym you should be more than familiar with..I am only being _slightly_ facetious

objections to things be they planning applications or otherwise should be based on the facts. The facts are that a few perople can't drive their cars for a few hours on a sunday morning once a year and....eh....that's it. Blancing this inconvenience is that B+Bs across the area are full and that probably about 5000 people descend on the area and need fed and watered. This gain to the many (competitiors and local businesses) outweights that basic costs. ?lets also not forget the longer term economic benefits as competiotos return to the area for a holiday short break at other times of the year

with regards to compromise you can garantee that the organiers didn't want to force people to rgister on the saturday. The council would have made this a condition in order to maximise bed nights. Since its inception the route was altered (it did originally go via Kenmore), the start times are earlier to avoid further inconvenience and the speed have been increased.

so, other than reading about all the other events which seem to be sucessfully run with closed roads...

what are the substantive reasons as to why the event cannot be run in its current form? Even some bullet points would do???

anything?


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## yello (3 Jun 2009)

No, I reckon he thinks that if he keeps talking at us will give in! Like the kid that keeps saying 'why?'

It's so odd isn't it? I mean, gadgetminded does not seem to want to accept that we can see the pov of those (few) people who did not want the road closures - we simply disagree with them and so with him. That's the end of it really. It's not an entrenched position as such, it's just a situation where we've weighed the arguments and taken a decision.


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## Will1962 (3 Jun 2009)

Gadgetmind

Here is a list of the Sportives that are in Scotland, with the maximum number of participants allowed:

Drumlanrig Tearfund Challenge - 300
Bealach Beag Challenge - 600
Burns Coastal Challenge Sportive - 200
Skye Mor and Beag - 600
Cairngorm 100/50 - 600
The Radar Ride - 350
Edinburgh Sportive - 300
The Ken Laidlaw Scottish Borders Sportif - 500
Bealach Mor Challenge - 600
Tour of Tweeddale Cyclosportive - 200
Ullapool Mor/Beag - 600

As you can see, the biggest Scottish sportives only allow 600 participants (the Etape Caledonia has circa 3500 participants). If you ran the Eatpe on open roads, then you would be restricted to about 500-600. The main attraction for the most popular sportives is the challenge element (and that is why people are prepared to travel large distances to take part). The Etape Caledonia route falls well short on the challenge front compared with other sportives such as the Bealach Beag, Fred Whitton Challenge, Etape du Dales, etc.

People will travel to take part in the Etape Caledonia because of the closed roads. Take that away, and all you will be left with is a much smaller event with mostly local people taking part. The local economy would get very little benefit from such an event.

Will


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

dodgy said:


> I get the impression that you're not really reading any of the posts on here gadgetmind?



No, sorry, you're wrong there. I'm reading them all. I'm not agreeing with every part of every post, and in many of those cases I'm explaining why I disagree.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

gillan said:


> what are the substantive reasons as to why the event cannot be run in its current form? Even some bullet points would do???



Well, I think we've gone over them in quite a bit of detail already, but I'm happy to recap the major ones.

1) The large number of substantially similar events that run around the country on open roads very strongly suggest that closed roads are not an absolute requirement.
2) There is widespread local opposition both for a large number of practical reasons and because of the lack of meaningful dialogue on the road closure issue.
3) The local people have suggested other forms the event could take without significantly affecting the charitable or enjoyment aspects but these were rejected. I understand that this event is run by a commercial organisation and that any excess money (entry fees minus running costs) are not donated to charity. 

Ian


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

yello said:


> No, I reckon he thinks that if he keeps talking at us will give in!



Please don't tell me what I think. And let's not make this personal, please. 

And for the record, I don't want/expect anyone to "give in" because I don't see this as a discussion with two sides, one of whom will win and one of whom will lose.

Ian


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## yello (3 Jun 2009)

Then what are you hoping to achieve?


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> 1) The large number of substantially similar events that run around the country on open roads very strongly suggest that closed roads are not an absolute requirement.
> Ian



So these substantially similar events run around the country, how many riders do they attract? And what conclusions do you draw once you've compared the numbers?


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

Will1962 said:


> People will travel to take part in the Etape Caledonia because of the closed roads.



And people travel to other similar events even though the roads aren't closed. 



> all you will be left with is a much smaller event with mostly local people taking part.



I'm really not sure that the attendance impact would be that bad, but even if it was, is size really that critical? Why not cap the attendance based on what the roads can comfortably cope with while remaining open?

I guess it comes down (yet again) to people stating the goals. If your goals/parameters are -

1) The roads MUST be closed.
2) The event MUST be huge, far larger than any other in the country.
3) It MUST draw people from far and wide.
4) Resistance is futile (OK, this one isn't too serious. :-)

then you end up with the event as currently staged. (Yes, I wrote that list in a <cough> slightly biased way, feel free to tear it up and write your own)

Personally, I'd have a list like -
1) Do no harm. Enrich the local environment, financially and socially.
2) Raise money for charity, which includes donating excess entry fee money to charity.
3) Be as inclusive as possible regards the age, ethnicity, gender, financial status, fitness and ability level of those taking part.
4) Minimise the carbon footprint. Draw entrants as much as possible from local communities, arrange transport to increase the "catchment" area, arrange over-night camping for those cycling to the event.
5) Listen to feedback, accept criticism, be prepared to make changes, and avoid polarising opinion.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

dodgy said:


> So these substantially similar events run around the country, how many riders do they attract? And what conclusions do you draw once you've compared the numbers?



The conclusion I draw is that some people perhaps think that the success of an event can be measured on a linear scale with the number of participants as the only input parameter.

If you do everything you can to maximise numbers then there are going to be powerful negatives elsewhere in the system, as we've seen.

Ian


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> *The conclusion I draw is that some people perhaps think that the success of an event can be measured on a linear scale with the number of participants as the only input parameter*.
> 
> If you do everything you can to maximise numbers then there are going to be powerful negatives elsewhere in the system, as we've seen.
> 
> Ian



The participants care little of the success, they enter because they think "wow, I can take part on closed roads - that's unique and will be a great experience". They're not thinking, we need it to be successful so I'd better attend.

Where is the banging head against brick wall smiley?


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

yello said:


> Then what are you hoping to achieve?



Dunno. The discussion seemed to be lacking balance and there seemed to be a lot of negativity towards "the locals".

I guess I just wanted people to reflect that if a keen cyclist such as myself can see the "other side" of the argument then perhaps they also ought to give it some thought.

I think it's fair to say that I get the feeling that, for those left in this thread, it hasn't exactly worked. But maybe, given the strong feelings (sometimes powerfully worded and sometimes downright unpleasantly worded) there are a fair few people around who dare not express their views?

One wonders that the general population think on this issue? After all, this forum is a self-selecting audience of keen cyclists, which will introduce some bias.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

dodgy said:


> The participants care little of the successi



No, but the organisers do. And some people here quote attendance numbers like it's a game of top trumps.



> they enter because they think "wow, I can take part on closed roads - that's unique and will be a great experience"



And thousands of people take part in open road cycling events and find them a great experience.

Ian


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## Will1962 (3 Jun 2009)

The reason that we are mentioning numbers is that people like yourself claim that the event could be run on open roads - It clearly couldn't. It is very dishonest of ACRE to point to other sportives that are run on open roads, when they are clearly not comparing like with like.

The major benefit to the area is the number of people who participate, and the number of people who come along with them to lend support. Most people seem to be able to understand that - If you cannot, then there is no reasoning with you.

Will


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## gavintc (3 Jun 2009)

The numbers bring money. The other Scottish events have a pretty small impact to a town and are probably not contributing much to the economy. You would typically turn up on the morning, register, cycle and then drive home. Contribution to the local population - an ice cream and a can of coke (if you are lucky). Etape, forces us to stay overnight. I made a weekend of it and stayed 2 nights as we had such an excellent time last year. I have said it before, if this event was on the same route and open - it would dangerous, very dangerous. I do not think the organisers would even consider this route, it is just too narrow. 

Perhaps a different area would work and the event returns to Pitlochry every (say) 3-5 yrs having attempted other closed road routes. This would be a nightmare to organise, but arguably would keep some of the nimbys happier.


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

Will1962 said:


> people like yourself



Err, sorry? People like myself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I'm sure that a *wide* variety of people can sympathise with the locals as much as (or more so) than those behind the closed road nature of the event.

Ian


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## gadgetmind (3 Jun 2009)

gavintc said:


> Etape, forces us to stay overnight.



That part of it does bother me. I'm sure many people are in the position to scrape up the entry fee but perhaps can't afford an over-night stay.

Similarly the raised minimum speed that the closed road nature seems to have made necessary. It's excluding those who aren't confident they can't manage this speed, which may well exclude people more local to the event who might be interested to take part but aren't (yet?) strong cyclists.



> would keep some of the nimbys happier



It was comments like this that caused the hairs on the back of my neck to raise in the first place. :-(

Ian


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## gavintc (3 Jun 2009)

I suggest it depends on whether you rely on local income for your salary or whether someone else (state, pension fund) is paying. If you have a vested interest in the wealth of the area, I presume you will be quite happy to see new money coming in. If your salary is buttressed from the realities of the local economy then you take a more selfish view on local income generation. Personally, I think the etape is a force for good for Pitlochry and the local area.


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## yello (3 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I guess I just wanted people to reflect that if a keen cyclist such as myself can see the "other side" of the argument then perhaps they also ought to give it some thought.



I think most people do see the other side. I think they do recognise that locals WILL be inconvenienced by road closures. It's a fairly easy thing to imagine on a personal level so I don't suspect anyone is hiding from the fact or pretending otherwise. 

But as has been already said, such events will always inconvenience someone. And big events more so. If you're saying that one of the compromises that should have been made was to make it a smaller event then you are changing the nature of the event itself. That may not have interested the organisers and the event may not have happened. Who knows? We're in the world of 'what if'. 

The fact is that the decision was taken on balance, compromises were made on both sides. That people would be inconvenienced was accepted as part of the price to pay. I cannot say how that balance was reached, whether it was right or wrong but I do accept the decision was made by people in a better position to judge than you or I.

Now obviously we can all draw up wish lists of how we might like such things to be decided but we can't reverse engineer a situation to get an answer we like. I personally wouldn't take part in a discussion about how future events should be run (since I don't feel qualified to say) but as far as the Etape Caledonian 2009 is concerned, I'm happy to accept that it was a balanced decision taking into account the real inconveniences that would be caused to the local population. Further, I feel quite within reason to condemn that person (or persons) that decided that they didn't like the decision and decided to cover the road in tacks.


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## Will1962 (3 Jun 2009)

Following the sabotage of the Etape, it was discussed at great length in various newspaper forums. The overwhelming majority were highly critical of the anti-closed road brigade.

It is a fallacy to claim that the locals are against this event - it is only a (very vocal) small minority who are against it. Many people who were sceptical about the event when it was first announced have seen the benefits that it brings, and have got right behind it.

In Scotland we have a system of community councils. They have the responsibility to act as an interface between the local community and the council. Members are elected, and local councillors attend their meetings. The meetings are also open to members of the public, and is the forum for the community to raise their concerns with the elected councillors for the ward on all sorts of issues.

The Mid Atholl, Strathtay and Grandtully Community Council covers the area that is subjected to the longest road closures during the Etape Caledonia. It includes the business that the ACRE spokesperson runs in Grandtully. The minutes from their meetings from the last year are available online (http://www.grandtully.com/agendasandminutes.htm). If you read through them, you will see that they haven't even discussed the Etape Caledonia (they seem to be more concerned about blocked drains and red squirrel numbers, than roads being closed for a few hours on one day a year). If there was significant community opposition against the road closures then they would be discussing it.

Will


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## dodgy (3 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> No, but the organisers do. And some people here quote attendance numbers like it's a game of top trumps.



The point is, and I'm pretty sure this must have sunk it with you by now, is that the reason the numbers are high is because the *Etape Caledonia offers something that no other sportive can* - closed roads. That is why the numbers are high!




> And thousands of people take part in open road cycling events and find them a great experience.
> 
> Ian



I know this, but many more choose to ride the Etape Caledonia because...... Oh I give up.


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## mcd (4 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> But maybe, given the strong feelings (sometimes powerfully worded and sometimes downright unpleasantly worded) there are a fair few people around who dare not express their views?


If they dare not express their views, how do you know there are a "fair few"?

I don't think I've got much to add to what has already been said (sometimes repeatedly so) on this thread, but here are my thoughts on specific points raised:



gadgetmind said:


> 1) The large number of substantially similar events that run around the country on open roads very strongly suggest that closed roads are not an absolute requirement.


Depends on how much you generalise - on the grand scheme of things I would regard the larger events listed on another post as similar, but not substantially so. But only having taken part in the Etape Caledonia I can not make any more detailed comparison - I'll leave that to others that have taken part in more events.


gadgetmind said:


> 2) There is widespread local opposition both for a large number of practical reasons and because of the lack of meaningful dialogue on the road closure issue.


I understand that the opposition is a "vocal minority" rather than "widespread". In a democratic society these are two very different things.


gadgetmind said:


> 3) The local people have suggested other forms the event could take without significantly affecting the charitable or enjoyment aspects but these were rejected. I understand that this event is run by a commercial organisation and that any excess money (entry fees minus running costs) are not donated to charity.


Have the 'local people' organised such an event? If they have attempted to, but have had their attempts rejected, I'd be interested to know on what grounds (eg safety or lack of support). The fact that the entry fee has gone up implies that there is no 'excess money'. 



gadgetmind said:


> Personally, I'd have a list like -
> 1) Do no harm. Enrich the local environment, financially and socially.


Not aware of any real harm having been caused by people taking part - though if they have, I assume this will have been reported to the police and appropriate action taken. The larger the event, the greater the financial enrichment. Not sure what you have in mind regarding "social enrichment".


gadgetmind said:


> 2) Raise money for charity, which includes donating excess entry fee money to charity.


Again, the larger the event, the more money gets raised for charity.


gadgetmind said:


> 3) Be as inclusive as possible regards the age, ethnicity, gender, financial status, fitness and ability level of those taking part.


Not aware of any restrictions imposed by the organisers - except possibly for financial status (the cost of attending the event will exclude those who can not afford it) and ability level (as has been mentioned already, changes made to the event to reduce its impact have included increasing the minimum speed and abandoning a shorter route - both make the event less attractive to less fit cyclists)


gadgetmind said:


> 4) Minimise the carbon footprint. Draw entrants as much as possible from local communities, arrange transport to increase the "catchment" area, arrange over-night camping for those cycling to the event.


This somewhat conflicts with 1) financial enrichment - local people spending money local does not bring new money into the area, and 3) being as inclusive as possible. Arranging overnight camping would be something that would add to the event. It would be interesting to see how many people would take this up.


gadgetmind said:


> 5) Listen to feedback, accept criticism, be prepared to make changes, and avoid polarising opinion.


I think the organisers agree with you on this one as changes have been made which restrict the event. As for avoiding polarising opinion - you're not having much success with that on this thread.


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## gillan (4 Jun 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Well, I think we've gone over them in quite a bit of detail already, but I'm happy to recap the major ones.
> 
> 1) The large number of substantially similar events that run around the country on open roads very strongly suggest that closed roads are not an absolute requirement.
> 2) There is widespread local opposition both for a large number of practical reasons and because of the lack of meaningful dialogue on the road closure issue.
> ...



yup...

so not much then and nothing so substantive that would outweigh an approximate £1m injection into the locoal economy?

1)the events you list are not substantially similar, they have far fewer competitors. they will also bring problems of their own for locals i.e. cyclists and delays for drivers for a far longer period. The caledonia event, whilst stopping access for a short period returns the roaqds to normal far quicker

2) how widespread is the local oppostion? By definition it can't be that widespread as the vast majority affected benefit the most i.e. the more populated area near Pitlochry. Still any figures you have to support "widespread" would be appreciated

3) the locals are not event organisers. Some of them are even business people who seek to turn a profit. Perhaps we shouldn't ask too many questions about how ethically they operate and where they source their products from? Should they be forced to stop stocking Coke say because some guy who lives in Fearnan doesn't like Coke's approach to employment practices on the Indian sub-continent?


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## Alves (4 Jun 2009)

Ian, your persistence against every reasonable argument is remarkable and reminds me of the ACRE group's intransigence against overwhelming odds and superior arguments.
You don't live there, you have never ridden the event and I suspect never will.
I know the area well, I was born and brought up there and have ridden all 3 events, I have a stake in the event, a totally biased one but at least one that's based on some knowledge and experience.
Where are you coming from and what is your ulterior motive?
Being a devil's advocate is all very well but you're not doing it in a way that's credible.


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## asterix (4 Jun 2009)

> Ian,.. ..Where are you coming from and what is your ulterior motive?
> Being a devil's advocate is all very well but you're not doing it in a way that's credible.



That's what I wanted to know umpteen pages ago! It strikes me as odd if not obsessive.


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## just jim (6 Jun 2009)

Maybe he'll get back to us at some point....


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## HLaB (10 Jun 2009)

They just don't get it, the council sum it up well at the end.



> Aside from the fact that this aspect attracts people from all over the world to Perthshire, conducting this size of cycling event on open roads would be extremely dangerous on the roads in question.


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## Waspie (10 Jun 2009)

> “The closed roads on this route stop all traffic, resident and tourist, for several hours without any alternative routes over the bulk of the course.”


Several hours!!!!! Each year!!!!??


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## ferret fur (10 Jun 2009)

I note that the spokesman has remained anonymous


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## gadgetmind (3 Jul 2009)

Alves said:


> you have never ridden the event and I suspect never will.



Probably not. There's plenty of cycling I can do much closer to home. I did my first century last weekend. 



> Where are you coming from and what is your ulterior motive?



I don't have any motive other than what I've tried to convey in this thread. Whether the event goes ahead in its current form, gets modified to avoid alienating the local community, or gets cancelled altogether, makes close to zero direct difference to me.

But I am keen on the promotion cycling both as a form of transport and as a form of exercise that's open to everyone. I also work hard to try and break down the "us and them" mentality that some non-cyclists have to those who cycle (and I'm afraid to say, vice versa).

For the most part, organised cycling events further these goals (or are at least neutral) but this one seems to have failed rather spectacularly on all counts. And the indications are that everyone's positions are becoming even more entrenched and I really don't get the feeling that there's much chance of common ground being found.

Anyway, probably time to move on and concentrate on the positive rather than dwelling on unfortunate situations such as this.

Ian


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## adscrim (3 Jul 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> Anyway, probably time to move on and concentrate on the positive rather than dwelling on unfortunate fabrications such as this.
> 
> Ian


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## yello (3 Jul 2009)

gadgetmind said:


> I really don't get the feeling that there's much chance of common ground being found.


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## HJ (25 Aug 2009)

Well it was announced today that the organisers are beefing up security for next year's event to prevent any repeat of this year's sabotage.


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## JWallace (18 Sep 2009)

*Cycling `Nutters` sign up for the 2010 event*



HJ said:


> Well it was announced today that the organisers are beefing up security for next year's event to prevent any repeat of this year's sabotage.



Also a few of cyclings `nutters` have signed up for the 2010 drawn by the challange of conflict,they use their fists first and questions later,they like trouble,the bike comes second to them,more soon............

JW


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## Theseus (18 Sep 2009)

JWallace said:


> Also a few of cyclings `nutters` have signed up for the 2010 drawn by the challange of conflict,they use their fists first and questions later,they like trouble,the bike comes second to them,more soon............



... and your basis for this assertion is?


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## Scoosh (18 Sep 2009)

Touche said:


> ... and your basis for this assertion is?


He's the Leader of the Gang, obviously  .... looking for recruits


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## adscrim (18 Sep 2009)

scoosh said:


> He's the Leader of the Gang, obviously  .... looking for recruits



"Where's ya tool?"

"What faaaaackin tool?"

"You know, the little pliers you take on long rides to pull thorns out of tyres."


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## HJ (18 Sep 2009)

adscrim said:


> "Where's ya tool?"
> 
> "What faaaaackin tool?"
> 
> "You know, the little pliers you take on long rides to pull thorns carpet tacks out of tyres."



Corrected that for you...


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## Isla Valassi (7 Jan 2010)

Charges against accused dropped!

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/output/2...14353848t0.asp


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## viniga (7 Jan 2010)

Well that's sending the right message. Nothing to stop something similar this year, now not even the threat of jail.


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## adscrim (7 Jan 2010)

viniga said:


> Well that's sending the right message. Nothing to stop something similar this year, now not even the threat of jail.



http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Panaracer_Flataway_Tyre_Liner/5300003783/


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## kennykool (7 Jan 2010)

Ach did we not all think that this man was a smoke screen for the whole situation.

I mean firstly did we really believe that ANYTHING was going to happen to this man....a former Laywer, Counciller and church elder to boot. Secondaly did we really believe that this 62 year old man was able to place 10 miles of carpet tacs on the route - all by himself.

ACRE deny any involvement but its clear that they were instrumental in the tacs being laid.

Shocking outcome for what was quite a serious crime in my eyes

I hope they don't try any other stunts this year!!!!!


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## adscrim (7 Jan 2010)

What knock on affect does this have on a joint civil case? Are the public allowed access to police files to determine whether a civil case has a chance of success? Was the decision not to prosecute partially driven by the knowledge a conviction could open the floodgates for thousands of competitors claiming return of costs for a 'ruined' event (it wasn't ruined - I still had a great time).

I'm dissappointed by the whole thing but as Kenny says, what else was really expected!


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## viniga (7 Jan 2010)

adscrim said:


> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Panaracer_Flataway_Tyre_Liner/5300003783/



 Very good. Looking at the reviews i'm not convinced these would stop a carpet tack. Might deflect a few...

I'm sure my point is well taken - it's not possible to stop the sabotage and now it will be perceived that there is no legal deterrent[FONT=&quot].[/FONT] I've signed up this year (will be one of only two sportives I can do) and i'm pissed off.


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