# Front Rack & Panniers



## Plax (7 Jul 2010)

Any recommendations for a front rack and panniers?
I wasn't thinking of spending an absurd amount given the amount of use they'll probably get. 

I take it that "universal" panniers means that they can be used front or back?

Front rack-wise I was thinking of this;
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/LifeLine_Alloy_Front_Rack/5360033788/

Pannier wise I'm not sure. At the rate I'm going I'll probably go yellow Orlieb front rollers to complement my existing rear yellow ones. A little voice in my head is saying is it worth it given the amount of use they'd get.

Cheers.


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## Crankarm (7 Jul 2010)

Yeah those front racks look cheap and cheerful ............. Just DON'T buy Blackburn front low loaders very poor design. The Rolls Royce of front racks are Tubus Ergos.

Well panniers, what price can you put on durability, functionality and quality?


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## Plax (7 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> Yeah those front racks look cheap and cheerful ............. Just DON'T buy Blackburn front low loaders very poor design. The Rolls Royce of front racks are Tubus Ergos.
> 
> Well panniers, what price can you put on durability, functionality and quality?



Indeed Crank. Buy cheap buy twice as they say. 
I'll not bother with the Blackburn rack then.


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## TheDoctor (7 Jul 2010)

That rack looks fine. I take it this is for the Galaxy, and it has the required braze-ons?
If you're not sure you'll use the front panniers much, I'd save a good few squids and go with these Altura panniers at just under 30 of your Earth pounds.
And yes, universal panniers can be used at either end of the bike.


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## Plax (7 Jul 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> That rack looks fine. I take it this is for the Galaxy, and it has the required braze-ons?
> If you're not sure you'll use the front panniers much, I'd save a good few squids and go with these Altura panniers at just under 30 of your Earth pounds.
> And yes, universal panniers can be used at either end of the bike.



Nice one, those look like just the thing.


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## HelenD123 (7 Jul 2010)

Universal means fits both left and right hand side doesn't it? I think my front racks are Blackburn ones and they are a sod to fit and not great with my Ortliebs. The only reason I have them is they were free!


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## TheDoctor (8 Jul 2010)

Oh!!
Helen, I have a horrible feeling you could be right. I'm sure I used universal ones on the front, but thinking back, that wasn't on a low-rider rack.
I wonder if Plax has ordered them yet?


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## steve52 (8 Jul 2010)

i would recomend the type that have a stabalizing bar linking the 2 sides, hindsight brings me to this conclusion, allways a usefull thing i wish i could have it first


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## andrew_s (8 Jul 2010)

Do they also attach to the inside of the fork blade? The photo doesn't make it apparent if they do. 

There's no loop over the wheel, so no attachment on the inside means a dodgy rack that would be prone to fatigue failure in the mountings and may allow the pannier to twist into the wheel.


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## Barbelier (8 Jul 2010)

I have to sort out some panniers for my LEJOG trip in September.

Anyone had any experience of the following?:

http://www.zyro.co.uk/brand/ALTURA/Panniers/id/ALFUS32.aspx
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Deuter_DS_Rack_Pack_Low_Rider_Panniers/5360034647/

I am leaning towards the Deuter because I have one of their rucksack and I think its excellent.


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## Plax (8 Jul 2010)

TheDoctor said:


> Oh!!
> Helen, I have a horrible feeling you could be right. I'm sure I used universal ones on the front, but thinking back, that wasn't on a low-rider rack.
> *I wonder if Plax has ordered them yet?*



Don't be silly, it takes me several days, if not weeks, to come to terms with parting with any significant sum of money. I'm still dithering.


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## Crankarm (8 Jul 2010)

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Altura_Arran_16_Universal_Pannier/5360029309/

Nice little panniers the Arrans although they are NOT waterproof needing the yellow covers which Altura supply plus the mounting hooks on the back of the panniers which go onto the rack are not the really good R&K that are on the Orkneys or other top panniers.

Yes the Blackburn front low loader racks are a bugger as the two rails for mounting the panniers converge to the front where they are welded together, meaning 1/2 the length of the rail cannot be used, as there simply is not enough space to get pannier hooks in. This is especially the case with Ortlieb pannier hooks which are fatter than R&K hooks. A real PITA. Plus they are a bugger to fit as well and have no cross over stay linking the two sides, although I have not had any trouble with mine which aren't linked, as I have taken a lot time to secure them so they are rock solid. But still.

I like the look of these cheapy low loaders from Axiom at CRC. No cross hoop but I think the mounting would be sufficiently strong not to need it. Can't work out if they are steel which would mean one could possibly have a front cross hoop to link them welded on.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=14340


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## Plax (8 Jul 2010)

I've seen theat Axiom one. I was put off by the way it attaches to the forks, as my forks have braze ons which I was thinking perhaps would get in the way?


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## Ticktockmy (10 Jul 2010)

Plax said:


> Any recommendations for a front rack and panniers?
> I wasn't thinking of spending an absurd amount given the amount of use they'll probably get.
> 
> I take it that "universal" panniers means that they can be used front or back?
> ...



I use Old man Mountain racks, as I have found them to be very strong and able to stand the wear and tear of longhaul touring. http://www.oldmanmountain.com the dealer in the UK is Carradice up north in Nelson. http://www.carradice.../categories/omm


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## Plax (10 Jul 2010)

Okay, I think I'm pretty much decided on the Lifeline front rack.

Still a bit undecided on the panniers. Quite keen on these though;
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Carradice_CarraDry_Universal_~_Front_Panniers_(pair)/5360050258/

Carradice CarraDry panniers. Anyone used them?


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## rualexander (10 Jul 2010)

andrew_s said:


> Do they also attach to the inside of the fork blade? The photo doesn't make it apparent if they do.
> 
> There's no loop over the wheel, so no attachment on the inside means a dodgy rack that would be prone to fatigue failure in the mountings and may allow the pannier to twist into the wheel.


I would avoid these 'Lifeline' low riders for this reason, especially on a cheap product, I would be very worried about them possibly twisting under load into the front wheel causing an accident.
Blackburn 'custom' low riders are a bit behind the times and their design is not ideally suited to modern panniers but they are still useable with Ortlieb Front Rollers if the hooks are positioned carefully, and they are secure from the possibility of twisting due to the bracing effect of the inner rail.


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## Crankarm (10 Jul 2010)

rualexander said:


> andrew_s said:
> 
> 
> > Do they also attach to the inside of the fork blade? The photo doesn't make it apparent if they do.
> ...



Very carefully indeed as the hooks are still a pain to get on the mounting rail as the Ortlieb hooks are slightly too wide for the narrow spacing between the rails of the rack which converge to a point at the front most edge. Plus Blackburn rails are 8-9mm thick so you have to use spacers in the hooks that Ortlieb provide which tend to drop out unlike R&K hooks or Vaude hooks. If you are planning purchasing Ortlieb panniers then you should buy the Tubus Ergo front low loader rack as it is the most suitable for Ortlieb pannier hooks.


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## willem (15 Jul 2010)

That rack with connecting loop is for fork blades with bolt holes that are through and through, as on many upmarket touring bikes. Use them on ordinary forks and you have a problem. As for panniers, I think Ortlieb are still the best buy, even though heavy. However, do you really need front paniers? Would it not be smarter to invest the money in lighter and more compact kit so you can do without front panniers? I have just come back from a tour in Norway, with gear to cope with freezing temperatures and driving rain, and I did not need front panniers. I think you only need front panniers if you carry some of the load for others (such as your children), or if you go to a third world country, and/or remote regions.
Willem


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## Plax (17 Jul 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. I've splashed out on yellow ortlieb front roller classic panniers. I've also opted for the Lifeline front rack. The reviews seemed favourable, and one review said they were fine with ortlieb's. I've just mounted them to the bike now and put the panniers on and it seems to be a decent enough piece of kit. The ortlieb panniers fit onto them fine. Just need a test ride now. Eventually I may well go with Crank's rec of the Tubus Ergo.



willem said:


> However, do you really need front paniers? Would it not be smarter to invest the money in lighter and more compact kit so you can do without front panniers? I have just come back from a tour in Norway, with gear to cope with freezing temperatures and driving rain, and I did not need front panniers. I think you only need front panniers if you carry some of the load for others (such as your children), or if you go to a third world country, and/or remote regions.
> Willem



Of course I need front panniers, I'm a girl. I mean where would I put my hairdryer? . I could probably get away without front panniers with what I want to do, but I've splashed the cash now. I like the thought of distributig the weight over the bike as last time the back end was very heavy and was a pain trying to open gates and stuff whilst trying to hold the bike upright. Also can separate out the stove away from the food, away from the clothes and so on easier now.


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## HelenD123 (17 Jul 2010)

My bike is definitely more balanced with front and back panniers and doesn't swing round so much and twist about when manoevering it like it did with just back panniers. Just don't fall into the trap of taking more stuff. I read on here a good tip to fit everything into your back panniers and then split the stuff between the four.


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## willem (17 Jul 2010)

My bike handles just fine with only rear panniers. That only changes when I load too much on the rear rack. 13 kg on the rear and 2 kg in a handle bar bag is fine. Having your heavy fuel bottle in a bottle cage under the downtube also helps. In Norway I had about 18 kg total, and 16 kg is about the maximum my bike will take just on the rear rack. It was still fine on level roads, but on very steep climbs the steering became rather light. But most times I do not need that much bad weather gear (in fact, I did not need it in Norway either). The next project is to lighten my load even further, to balance the bike better on those rare occasions that I do need to take this much bad weather gear, and to climb those mountains that much more easily.
Willem


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## Ben M (24 Jul 2010)

Hi everyone, sorry for a bit of a bump on an old thread but I have a question.

You slate the blackburn rack, saying that the sides aren't linked, does that mean that you aren't talking about this one for£34.99, you're talking about this one for £31.39 or have I mis-interpreted?

The panniers I am looking to buy are these.


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## Crankarm (24 Jul 2010)

The 1st link £34.99 are for forks without braze-ons. The 2nd link £31.99 are for forks with braze-ons which enable bolts to be screwed into the fork allowing mounting of the rack such that the top horizontal bars are either side the fork.

Wrt to you Carradry panniers fitting the Blackburn pannier rack, no idea, sorry. They do appear to use R&K hooks which tend to fit the 8mm Blackburn diameter tubing, as my Altura Orkney panniers do, although they might be too thick meaning they won't pass bewtween the converging top mounting rails.

As for Blackburn racks, they are generally crap as the welding is of such poor quality. I have had two racks break  .


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## Ben M (25 Jul 2010)

Crankarm said:


> The 1st link £34.99 are for forks without braze-ons. The 2nd link £31.99 are for forks with braze-ons which enable bolts to be screwed into the fork allowing mounting of the rack such that the top horizontal bars are either side the fork.
> 
> Wrt to you Carradry panniers fitting the Blackburn pannier rack, no idea, sorry. They do appear to use R&K hooks which tend to fit the 8mm Blackburn diameter tubing, as my Altura Orkney panniers do, although they might be too thick meaning they won't pass bewtween the converging top mounting rails.
> 
> As for Blackburn racks, they are generally crap as the welding is of such poor quality. I have had two racks break  .



Cheers, obviously my reading skills are weak when I'm tired!

I have a TorTec rack on the back of my road bike and have had it fairly heavily laden without any issues, but it would seem that they only do one front rack and it's a "for bikes with and without braze-ons" effort 

Do you have any recommendations for a rack for a bike with braze-ons under/ around £40 ?


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## Plax (26 Jul 2010)

Ben M said:


> Cheers, obviously my reading skills are weak when I'm tired!
> 
> I have a TorTec rack on the back of my road bike and have had it fairly heavily laden without any issues, but it would seem that they only do one front rack and it's a "for bikes with and without braze-ons" effort
> 
> Do you have any recommendations for a rack for a bike with braze-ons under/ around £40 ?



The Lifeline front rack I've bought seems pretty robust so far. Proper test this weekend so I can report back after if you'd like. They seem to have good reviews on the Wiggle site;
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/LifeLine_Alloy_Front_Rack/5360033788/


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## doog (26 Jul 2010)

I think I will buy some front panniers / rack just to tidy things up a bit. I end up with not only the tent on the rack but also my sleeping bag and mat in drybags plus flip flops etc and any other stuff that gets stuffed on there ,it all seems to get a bit top heavy and looks it. 

My panniers are 42 litres but once cooking gear is in one bag, clothes in the next its getting a bit crowded. Would be nice to stow the sleeping bag ,mat, tent pegs and poles,cooking gear away at the front and even some of the weight out....


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## HelenD123 (27 Jul 2010)

doog said:


> I think I will buy some front panniers / rack just to tidy things up a bit. I end up with not only the tent on the rack but also my sleeping bag and mat in drybags plus flip flops etc and any other stuff that gets stuffed on there ,it all seems to get a bit top heavy and looks it.
> 
> My panniers are 42 litres but once cooking gear is in one bag, clothes in the next its getting a bit crowded. Would be nice to stow the sleeping bag ,mat, tent pegs and poles,cooking gear away at the front and even some of the weight out....



If you have 20 litres worth of clothes you're taking too many. You should be able to cut that down and get at least your sleeping bag in the clothes pannier. If you need any tips I'd be happy to help.


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## willem (27 Jul 2010)

The aim is weight reduction, of course, but volume reduction is an important tool. The first thing to do is to leave home anything that you do not really need. This is cheap, but mentally very hard for many. The next step is to see if you already own lighteran dmore compact alternatives for what you do need. Weigh your clothes and you will discover that some shirts are far heavier than others. The next step is volume reduction, to get everything into two rear panniers - even empty lowriders plus rack weight about 2-2.5 kilo, and cost quite a bit of money. There are a few things that do not go into your paniers, so you do not need to worry about their volume: tent plus raingear. You do not want that wet stuff inside your bag, and it does not matter if they get wet. So how to reduce the volume of what goes inside the bags? Do not take more than one pair of trousers, to wear in the evenings. Only take the one pair of shoes that you are wearing, Avoid self inflating mattresses because they are too bulky. Instead take a Thermarest Neoair for the summer, or an Exped Synmat Basic if you need something warmer. Both of these will easily fit inside the panniers. Get a compact down sleeping bag. An expensive example would be a PHD Minimus 200 or 300 (an Alpkit Pipedream is a cheaper alternative). Get a compact cooking set. For solo use the Trangia 27 is very nice, and you can have the fuel bottle in a Bikebuddy on the bicycle frame. Some gas stoves come with even more compact pots, but those may be too small for real meals.
Even on my recent trip to Norway everything (including warm clothing and an extra warm sleeping bag) but the tent and the rain jacket fitted inside the two rear panniers (plus a bar bag). I was never cold or uncomfortable. Use the money you save by not buying a front rack and front panniers to reduce the volume of what has to go inside the panniers.
Willem


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## rich p (27 Jul 2010)

...or use front panniers and carry a few luxuries to make the trip more comfortable and less like an ordeal in minimal survival.

Each to his own!


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## willem (27 Jul 2010)

Sure, each to his own. On the other hand, lower weight also represents comfort. And in any case, using the 100+ pounds you save by not buying a front rack and front panniers to choose a lighter and more compact sleeping bag and mattress does not reduce your sleeping comfort. A Neoair or Synmat are eminently comfortable and thick (6.3 and 7.5 cm respectively) mattresses. 
Willem


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## adds21 (27 Jul 2010)

Plax said:


> The Lifeline front rack I've bought seems pretty robust so far. Proper test this weekend so I can report back after if you'd like. They seem to have good reviews on the Wiggle site;
> http://www.wiggle.co...ack/5360033788/



+1. I've recently gone for a pair of these, and they seem very good value.


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## rich p (27 Jul 2010)

I'm not having a go, Willem, and you're more often than not a worthy source of knowledge and information but I buy lightweight kit *and* take front panniers. I was just pointing out that there's more than one way to swing a cat.


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## willem (27 Jul 2010)

That is fine with me. I only wanted and want to point out that lightweight is a real possibility, and as far as I am concerned makes the actual cycling more pleasant - but I am getting on in age and need all the help I can get. I also honestly do not think I am lacking in comfort. I have a warm PHD sleeping bag for my solo trips and a warm and decadent duo sleeping bag for trips with my wife, a comfortable and warm Exped mattress, a totally reliable and roomy (but too low) Helsport Rondane tent (or a Hilleberg Nammatj 3 GT for camping with my wife), and a Trangia stove to cook real meals. I take one pair of decent trousers and an elegant shirt (and a PHD down vest for when it gets cold). I have a serious first aid kit, and enough tools to fix the most common problems with my bike. All of this fits inside two rear panniers. People do not, at least in my view, seem to realize how little they really need, and how recent technology has lightened what you do need to take. You can now have a sleep system for 1 kilo (a Neoair and a pretty warm PHD bag), a tent for just over 1 kilo (Vaude Power Lizard), a down vest for 150 grams, and a stove and pots for under 400 grams. Personally, I would find this Vaude tent too small to my taste, but alternatively at 1800 grams a Helsport Ringstind 2 is spacious enough for even the most demanding solo camper. Minimizing the volume of your sleep system is the key, I believe. Once you have done that, everything will quite easily fit into just two rear panniers. I have wriitten an essay in Dutch for first time cyclo tourists for the Dutch Cycle Touring club, with two alternative strategies (for two people), both traditional and lightweight: http://www.wereldfietser.nl/images/stories/2009/de eerste keer op fietsvakantie.pdf Interestingly both strategies cost about the same but the light weight version was less than half the weight of the more traditional strategy. Comfort was not at all compromised, and the quality of the lightweight gear was probably better. 
But of course, people must really do what they feel happiest with. I cannot wait to get on my bike again.
Willem


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## ufkacbln (27 Jul 2010)

Plax said:


> Any recommendations for a front rack and panniers?
> I wasn't thinking of spending an absurd amount given the amount of use they'll probably get.
> 
> I take it that "universal" panniers means that they can be used front or back?
> ...



Many years ago I bought a bar dale and cheap pair of the (short-lived) of the Karrimor Aquashield panniers. I wanted a matching front pair as well. So I contacted the company and asked if they stocked them......... The reply was "OOoooh you are a vain little thing aren't you"


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## Crankarm (27 Jul 2010)

Cunobelin said:


> Many years ago I bought a bar dale and cheap pair of the (short-lived) of the Karrimor Aquashield panniers. I wanted a matching front pair as well. *So I contacted the company and asked if they stocked them......... The reply was "OOoooh you are a vain little thing aren't you"
> *



And are they still trading?


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## HelenD123 (28 Jul 2010)

Willem - I'm really interested in those sleeping mats you mentioned. I'll have to look into them at the end of this trip. My sleeping bag also isn't quite warm enough so maybe I'll have to invest in that area too. You are right that the weight you are carrying has a bearing on the enjoyability of the tour.


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## willem (28 Jul 2010)

There are now three mattresses that improve significantly on the self inflating ones: the Thermarest Neoair, the Exped Synmat Basic and the Exped Downmat Pump. All three are much more comfortable. The difference is in their temperature ratings: the warmer the bigger and heavier they are. The smallest is the Thermarest Neoair, at 410 grams and a packed size of about 1 litre. It is a summer mattress, going down to perhaps 5 degrees above freezing. The next one is the Synmat Basic, going down to offcially something like 10 degrees below, but realistically perhaps a bit less (I sleep cold), it's packed size is larger than that of the Neoair, and its weight is 660 gram. That is still very good for a matress that will be fine under just about all circumstances a cyclo tourist wil encounter. If it gets any colder there will be ice and snow on the roads. Finally, the Exped Downmat Pump at 910 grams. This one is a bit bigger again (but still quite small and easily packed inside a pannier bag) but its insulation is good enough for really cold weather like minus 20 or colder. If you only travel in summer at lower altitudes the Neoair will be great. If you also travel in Spring or Autumn, or at higher altitudes, the Synmat Basic is the best all round mattress. It is also by far the cheapest mattress: about 60 pounds. The weight reduction was achieved by a somewhat simpler construction, but that also made it cheaper. It is the cheapest of these three mats, and I think for most people it will be the best buy.

As for sleeping bags, I like the PHD bags, but they are not cheap. Also they are a quite tight fit (but PHD will do a wider one if you ask them). They are beautifully made and an unbelievably small package. One way to extend the range of a sleeping bag would be to take a down vest or jacket and use it inside your bag on those few days when it gets really cold. The trick is to make clothing multifunctional: why not use something that keeps you warm in the evening to keep you warm at night as well? I now leave my 500 gram fleece at home, and only take my 150 gram vest. The vest also packs into a minute package.

Willem


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## Ticktockmy (28 Jul 2010)

I am a great believer in using front and rear panniers as it spreads the weight across the whole bike.

*Front left* has my lightweight cooking equipment and that days food.

*Front right* has my wet weather clothing, first aid kit plus extra water for cooking if needed,.

*Rear left* has my lightweight tent, sleeping mat, spare fuel for cooker

*Rear Right* has any food, and clothes and spare inner tubes and folding spare tyre.




Depending where I am going and what terrian, then I fit either a high or low loader rack on the front.


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## willem (28 Jul 2010)

I wanted to edit my last post to add some information on pillows, but the Cycle Chat system does not allow me to edit anything at the moment (why?), so here as a new post:
Exped have also just intporduced tw new pilows, an air pillow and a pilow with some syntehtic styuff as well. The air pillow is not only very light (85 grams and compact, but after a few nights I can honestly say it is the most comfortable camping pillow I have ever used. The foam pillow is supposed to be a bit warmer and even more comfortable, but also heavier . I have ordered one to try and compare.
Willem


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## doog (28 Jul 2010)

HelenD123 said:


> If you have 20 litres worth of clothes you're taking too many. You should be able to cut that down and get at least your sleeping bag in the clothes pannier. If you need any tips I'd be happy to help.





I welcome your suggestions Helen 

I basically had one pair of shorts, two T shirts, 2 pairs of pants / socks , spare cycling shirt,a micro towel, a small wash bag, a lightweight fleece and a small waterproof jacket in that pannier and it was stuffed. The other pannier had an f1 lite stove, lightweight pots/pan containing the stove,lighter etc, tent poles and pegs, a small packet of wet wipes, head torch, book, small clothes line and a few other odds and ends including small plastic containers with tea,sugar coffee and cream..... and it was stuffed.

My tent is on the rear rack, along with with a lightweight mat and lightweight sleeping bag both in dry bags....would really struggle to get the mat or sleeping bag in the clothing pannier

Basic setup is as attached photo that has done me several trips...reason for suggesting front panniers is that it would tidy things up abit and not feel so rear heavy on what is a pretty lightweight bike for touring purposes


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## HelenD123 (29 Jul 2010)

doog said:


> I welcome your suggestions Helen
> 
> I basically had one pair of shorts, two T shirts, 2 pairs of pants / socks , spare cycling shirt,a micro towel, a small wash bag, a lightweight fleece and a small waterproof jacket in that pannier and it was stuffed. The other pannier had an f1 lite stove, lightweight pots/pan containing the stove,lighter etc, tent poles and pegs, a small packet of wet wipes, head torch, book, small clothes line and a few other odds and ends including small plastic containers with tea,sugar coffee and cream..... and it was stuffed.
> 
> ...



Are you sure your rear panniers are 20 litres each? They look a lot smaller than mine.






My clothes are in the drier at the moment so I can't remember exactly what I have but it's certainly a lot more items than you have.


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## HelenD123 (29 Jul 2010)

willem said:


> I wanted to edit my last post to add some information on pillows, but the Cycle Chat system does not allow me to edit anything at the moment (why?), so here as a new post:
> Exped have also just intporduced tw new pilows, an air pillow and a pilow with some syntehtic styuff as well. The air pillow is not only very light (85 grams and compact, but after a few nights I can honestly say it is the most comfortable camping pillow I have ever used. The foam pillow is supposed to be a bit warmer and even more comfortable, but also heavier . I have ordered one to try and compare.
> Willem



I put my down jacket in a small pillowcase that came with a blow up pillow (which I hated). A couple of very cold nights it's been useful to whip the jacket out of the pillowcase and wear it!


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## doog (29 Jul 2010)

HelenD123 said:


> Are you sure your rear panniers are 20 litres each? They look a lot smaller than mine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are Altura Arrans 46 (not 42 as i stated) (having just checked) ..perhaps i need to stretch them a bit (with use



). The top flap doesnt seem big enough to pull down over the top of the pannier when its full , which i'm sure reduces capacity to well below that stated.


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## sgw (29 Jul 2010)

doog said:


> They are Altura Arrans 46 (not 42 as i stated) (having just checked) ..perhaps i need to stretch them a bit (with use
> 
> 
> 
> ). The top flap doesnt seem big enough to pull down over the top of the pannier when its full , which i'm sure reduces capacity to well below that stated.



Agreed. 

I find that not using the top pockets for anything thicker than a newspaper helps, but the flaps should still be longer,


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