# Is it too Highly Geared ?



## Illaveago (4 Mar 2021)

This may seem like a bit of a how long is a piece of string question?
I'm new to being a tandem owner and rider . My bike is an old Coventry Eagle Triple Ace Convertible Tandem . It has a Sturmey Archer 3 speed which at the moment is being operated by a Shimano friction shifter. The proper one has the cable stuck inside it at the moment .
I have done a couple of test rides of about 5 miles on it in tandem form riding solo. My pace seems to be similar to that of my steel racing bikes around 10 -12mph average speed . 
The other day I think I found the lowest gear, as I say it is a bit hit and miss. My cadence was slower than on my road bikes on the flat but on any gradient it slowed even more . The bike is fitted with a 46 tooth chainring . I don't know what the rear sprocket is.
My questions are. Would the input of another rider change things or would it remain the same as you would be carrying extra weight ? The second question is . Should the lower gear on the Sturmey Archer have given me a much higher cadence ?
To me it seems as though the chainring may be suited to the single rider set up .


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## Tigerbiten (6 Mar 2021)

You've 3 factors to take into account on a tandem.
You've around 2x the leg power, about 2x the weight but only 1.??x the wind resistance vs a standard bike.
So on the ........
Flat:-
With ~2x the power and only 1.??x the wind resistance you'll probably go an mph or two faster for the same power input from each rider.
Downhill:-
Which ~2x the weight and again only 1.??x the wind resistance you'll probably pick up speed faster and hit a higher top speed.
Uphill:-
With ~2x the power and ~2x the weight you'll climb around the same speed.
Until you run out of gears down.
Then you may well find it's very hard/impossible to pedal while out of the saddle for any extra power.

So with the limited range on a 3 speed hub it's a question of ....
Do you gear it up slightly to take advantage of the higher flat speed, but hill climbing will be harder.
Do you gear it down to make it easier to climb hills, but you'll spinout at a lower speed.
Or do you split the difference and keep the gearing balanced.

Luck ...........


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## Illaveago (6 Mar 2021)

Tigerbiten said:


> You've 3 factors to take into account on a tandem.
> You've around 2x the leg power, about 2x the weight but only 1.??x the wind resistance vs a standard bike.
> So on the ........
> Flat:-
> ...


Thanks .
As I say I'm new to this type of bike and I haven't yet tried it 2 up . My wife was the intended pillion and isn't that used to bikes. The new one she bought hasn't been ridden much . 
Going from my test rides I'm wondering If the bike was geared for single use being the main setup and as in their advert was converted into a tandem for the weekend . I was wondering if I changed the rear chainring for a 44 instead of a 46 it would lower the ratio just enough to make it a bit more rideable. It would make it easier for my wife to pedal . That is if she ever climbed aboard!
As I say it will be a new experience for the both of us . I'm wondering if it would be better to try it out with a more experienced rider on the back at first ?
There isn't any rush at the moment as there is still some work I need to do on the bike but I would like to try it at some time .


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## davidphilips (6 Mar 2021)

Bit of how long is a bit of string as you say, what may be a reasonable idea is wait until you get the gear shifter sorted and then try the tandem with your wife? theres the chance if you do change the gearing now and dont get it right then may have to change it perhaps back to the present gearing.
Know the old sayings dont fix some thing thats not broken. or dont look for problems? Good luck with the tandem and can you let us know how you get on.


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## Illaveago (6 Mar 2021)

I think one of my problems is trying to figure out in which way the gearing works . I haven't used a Sturmey Archer 3 speed before. I know that you stop pedalling when changing gear but as to how the gearing works is another matter . Does it gear up or down ? I've never contemplated it before. Just going by my couple of rides it seems as though first gear is about bearable one up without a headwind. 2nd or 3rd seem to be like overdrive . It is a puzzle as to how many years I have at the moment as it is a bit of a lottery. It's a "Ah that feels better" technique.
As for having too high a cadence when it comes to going down hill I'm very good at freewheeling . 
Swapping over a chainring either way wouldn't be too much of a problem , cotter pin out and either add or remove a few links .


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## figbat (6 Mar 2021)

The Sturmey Archer 3-speed gears up and down. The middle gear is direct drive, with the top gear overdriving and the bottom gear underdriving. The AW hub (the most common one) goes + 33% and -25%. For all you’ll ever need to know about them, look here.


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## mickle (6 Mar 2021)

Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs aren't ideal for tandem use, unless you're just cruising up and down a boardwalk. If you change the sprockets to give better hill climbing ability the torque generated by two riders will kill it. I know for sure that SA hubs are not rated for mountain bike use, so it's very unlikely that they are tandem rated.


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## figbat (6 Mar 2021)

mickle said:


> Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs aren't ideal for tandem use, unless you're just cruising up and down a boardwalk. If you change the sprockets to give better hill climbing ability the torque generated by two riders will kill it. I know for sure that SA hubs are not rated for mountain bike use, so it's very unlikely that they are tandem rated.


Yes - I’ve also seen it written that one shouldn’t even stand-up-pedal with a SA hub.


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## Chris S (6 Mar 2021)

I swapped the 19T sprocket on my Sturmey Archer 3-speed for a 21T one. It reduced the top gear from 84 inches to 76 inches and actually made it usable. 
I know that on conventional SA bikes the chainring must have at least twice as many teeth as the sprocket to prevent torque damage. It must also be at least this on a tandem with two people pedaling.


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## Chris S (6 Mar 2021)

figbat said:


> Yes - I’ve also seen it written that one shouldn’t even stand-up-pedal with a SA hub.


That's because they can slip into neutral and topple you over.


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## CXRAndy (6 Mar 2021)

Sheldon brown has internal hub gear calculator. This will help you understand ratios, speed, cadence etc.

Knowing what cadence you're capable of maintaining will also help the calculations to which gearing is best.

Do you have a cadence sensor?


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## figbat (6 Mar 2021)

Chris S said:


> That's because they can slip into neutral and topple you over.


My understanding, and experience, is that under load the gears will stay firmly engaged. If you try to shift whilst loaded the gear will stay engaged until you unload the hub, at which point it’ll shift as commanded. I thought the stand up advice was for the same reasons as mentioned above - the pawls in the hub won’t like the torque.


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## Tigerbiten (7 Mar 2021)

The risk is not all the pawls engage evenly and/or fully.
The more stress you put on the hub, the more likely this is to happen.
Eventually one of the pawls doesn't even engage.
The off centre forces are then enough the kill the hub.
But Brucey over on the CUK forum is the person to ask about all things IHG.

Some more useless info .......... 
With the right gearing the two 33% up steps of the hub will give you 3 optimal speeds, something like 9mph-12mph-16mph.
A old standard 53-40-30 road triple has the same 33% steps between the chainrings.
The old standard 14-16-18-21-24 5 block again has roughly the same 33% step between the 14-18-24 sprockets.
That is assuming you do have a 33% step between the gears.
SA did/do make other hubs with narrower/wider steps between their gears.

Luck .......


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## davidphilips (7 Mar 2021)

Just looking in my parts bin, have a new unused 13 teeth sa sprocket if any one can make use of it, will send free?


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## Chris S (7 Mar 2021)

figbat said:


> My understanding, and experience, is that under load the gears will stay firmly engaged. If you try to shift whilst loaded the gear will stay engaged until you unload the hub, at which point it’ll shift as commanded. I thought the stand up advice was for the same reasons as mentioned above - the pawls in the hub won’t like the torque.


That's what's supposed to happen in theory. In practice they slip even if the cable is only slightly out of adjustment.


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## byegad (7 Mar 2021)

Not tandem related, but 3 speed hub related.
When I lived in Durham City, I had a 3 speed bike. As Durham has several hills, there's more 'Geography' than area to fit it in, I found I rarely used top gear as I was freewheeling down the hills at speed, but needed a much lower bottom gear for climbing. So I changed the rear sprocket for the largest I could find and the front for a smaller one.
The net result was I had a top gear only just high enough for the flat and a bottom gear only just low enough for the hills.
I doubt that would suit a tandem, as in my limited experience, you can fairly bowl along on the flat.


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## Illaveago (7 Mar 2021)

At present it is running a 46 18 setup . I have ordered a 22 sprocket. 

I don't think we will be going great guns on it, my wife hasn't ridden for years so I expect we will just potter about .


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## Chris S (7 Mar 2021)

Illaveago said:


> At present it is running a 46 18 setup . I have ordered a 22 sprocket.
> 
> I don't think we will be going great guns on it, my wife hasn't ridden for years so I expect we will just potter about .


It will make a huge difference.
Your current gears are 50, 66 and 89 inches.
You will reduce them to 41, 54.3 and 72.5 inches.
Not only will you be able to use the top gear but you will be able to go up hills as well


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## Chris S (7 Mar 2021)

davidphilips said:


> Just looking in my parts bin, have a new unused 13 teeth sa sprocket if any one can make use of it, will send free?


Putting a 13T sprocket on a bike with a 46T chainring and 26" wheels will give a 92" middle gear!
They're normally only used on bikes with smaller wheels such as Bromptons. Somebody here might be able to make use of it.


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## SkipdiverJohn (12 Mar 2021)

Illaveago said:


> At present it is running a 46 18 setup . I have ordered a 22 sprocket.





Chris S said:


> It will make a huge difference.



Much more of a difference than I would want to make personally. It's all very well fine tuning ratios to optimise it, but a large change in gearing is going to fundamentally alter the way the bike feels to ride.
A tandem has the potential to really move on the flat. The bike weight won't be double a solo, as you don't have four wheels. Extra aerodynamic drag will be minimal if the second rider is smaller than the front one. I wouldn't gear it silly low myself, just a bit lower.


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## roubaixtuesday (12 Mar 2021)

Illaveago said:


> At present it is running a 46 18 setup . I have ordered a 22 sprocket.
> 
> I don't think we will be going great guns on it, my wife hasn't ridden for years so I expect we will just potter about .



According to later poster you'll have 41, 54, 73" gears or thereabouts. 

On our tandem we have a range of 17"-109"...

Tandems are *much* harder uphill IME, so I think you've got a good compromise there between spinning out on flat vs struggling uphill, but don't expect to get up hills of any length or steepness unless you've got the thighs of Fabien Cancellara.

Much more importantly, what brakes do you have and are they set up properly?


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## T4tomo (12 Mar 2021)

I've ridden tandems, and used to hub gears from a Brompton.

The intended 41, 54, 73 is not a bad starting point with what you've got (certainly more suited to a tandem than previous / current) given the limitation of a 3 speed standard SA hub.

You wouldn't want to do much more than pootling around on it though. setting aside the torque through a Hub gear issue, fundamentally you want a wide and varied gear choice on a tandem, because as stated they are much harder uphill than a solo bike, because its hard to time the "double the power" effort uphill and out of the saddle is not really an option, so tandem teams tend to drop into a low gear and twiddle up up a long climb. 41" is a bit high for twiddling, but you don't want much less that 72" for cruising along on the flat.

I would see how you get on with the 22 cog


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## Illaveago (13 Mar 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> According to later poster you'll have 41, 54, 73" gears or thereabouts.
> 
> On our tandem we have a range of 17"-109"...
> 
> ...


They are drum brakes. I stripped them dow and cleaned them , they seem to stop alright.


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## Illaveago (13 Mar 2021)

This is the bike in t






andem form.


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## roubaixtuesday (13 Mar 2021)

Illaveago said:


> This is the bike in t
> View attachment 578415
> 
> 
> andem form.



It's _convertible? _Fab.

Is that some sort of chain tensioner on the timing belt?

The back end looks a bit twisty from the mixte frame - not one for charging down hairpins on I suspect.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Illaveago (13 Mar 2021)

roubaixtuesday said:


> It's _convertible? _Fab.
> 
> Is that some sort of chain tensioner on the timing belt?
> 
> ...


Yes , it wasn't so I have taken a link out .
I haven't got used to the length or the extra width of the rear bars and cranks . Mind you I haven't ridden it very far yet .


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## biggs682 (17 Mar 2021)

I would love to see somebody pedal dancing on a tandem


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## SkipdiverJohn (18 Mar 2021)

biggs682 said:


> I would love to see somebody pedal dancing on a tandem



I'm not sure I would. The likely outcome of such antics is not going to be a pretty sight.


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## Tail End Charlie (24 Mar 2021)

biggs682 said:


> I would love to see somebody pedal dancing on a tandem


If you mean both riders standing up on the pedals at the same time, I've seen it. There's a very strong pairing who Audax round here on Peak District rides. They are very fast uphill, much faster than me (although that's not saying much) and it's a great sight to see when they power off. Synchronized pedalling!! (yeah I know it has to be but you can imagine there's no timing chain). I've tried it but too wobbly so my wife just stands up.


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## Aleman (6 Jun 2021)

On my Rohloff equipped tandem I have a 47/17 combo, but the Rohloff adds a 526% variance so I have something like 21 to 105 gear inches. Like all tandems it's a compromise as we spin out going downhill, and uphill yep really could do with an extra lower gear ... As if 14 isn't enough  To give you some idea it's geared similar to a 27 speed MTB.

We bought the Rohloff equipped Thorn as our old derailleur tandem (18 speed) just didn't have gearing low enough for hills, and no o real way to get any lower.

I think you have a tandem that is going to be great for flat work .,. But expect to push it uphills.


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