# Glasgow 20mph petition



## glasgowcyclist (12 Feb 2015)

Following the decision by Edinburgh to introduce a 20mph limit on 80% of the city's streets, Go-Bike started a petition to have Glasgow City Council introduce the same scheme here. GCC tried to scupper this as reported in The Herald a couple of days ago:

_The petition was due to go live by Friday but was stalled after staff in the roads department advised that establishing 20mph limits - as opposed to "zones" accompanied by traffic calming measures - required permission from Scottish Ministers. As a result, the group were told their petition was "not eligible".

However, when Transport Scotland pointed out that this was not in fact the case, the Land and Environmental Services revised their response and told the group on Friday that the petition "cannot be supported" because "not every road in Glasgow will be suitable for a 20mph limit".

The local authority added that it was already "working towards making all suitable residential roads mandatory 20mph zones or limits in line with its current resources"._​
They're a conniving bunch at GCC who are useless when it comes to making streets safer and encouraging healthier travel. So, if you are a resident of Glasgow and support the 20mph campaign, please sign it and spread the word.

https://www.glasgowconsult.co.uk/KMS/epetitions.aspx

The closing date is 7 March so there isn't much time left.

Thank you.

GC


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## AndyRM (12 Feb 2015)

As a former resident of Glasgow, I have signed. Thankfully I can remember my old postcode!


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## Bollo (12 Feb 2015)

If it does go anywhere, let's hope they remember to ask plod. The sorry saga of our 20mph limit is covered in this thread.....

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/winchesters-new-20mph-limit-not-enforceable.166469/

It's been in place for a few months now and has been roundly ignored by errr - everyone.


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Feb 2015)

AndyRM said:


> As a former resident of Glasgow, I have signed. Thankfully I can remember my old postcode!


Did this work then? I was not allowed to sign because I live just outside the boundary, across the road, actually.
Will try again with my old postcode, ta for that!


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## GlasgowGaryH (12 Feb 2015)

Bollo said:


> If it does go anywhere, let's hope they remember to ask plod. The sorry saga of our 20mph limit is covered in this thread.....
> 
> https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/winchesters-new-20mph-limit-not-enforceable.166469/
> 
> It's been in place for a few months now and has been roundly ignored by errr - everyone.



No chance of it working in Glasgow either


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## AndyRM (12 Feb 2015)

Pat "5mph" said:


> Did this work then? I was not allowed to sign because I live just outside the boundary, across the road, actually.
> Will try again with my old postcode, ta for that!



Yep. I used to live just off Byers road and it let me do it no problem.


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Mar 2015)

A correction to the stated closing date: it's 17 March so still time for those who haven't yet done so to sign it.

Only 183 signatures so far which I find both surprising and disappointing.

https://www.glasgowconsult.co.uk/kms/epetitions.aspx



GC


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## Pat "5mph" (12 Mar 2015)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Only 183 signatures so far which I find both surprising and disappointing.


That's very few! Maybe folks think it's a waste of time?
I have noticed that on some 20mph streets cars are still racing.
I signed, had to use an old address, 'cause I live across the road in South Lanarkshire


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## cardiac case (13 Mar 2015)

The trouble is, if you cut speeds in half, you get twice as much traffic.

Paul G


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## discominer (13 Mar 2015)

evidence?


cardiac case said:


> The trouble is, if you cut speeds in half, you get twice as much traffic.
> 
> Paul G


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## glenn forger (13 Mar 2015)

cardiac case said:


> The trouble is, if you cut speeds in half, you get twice as much traffic.
> 
> Paul G



Complete piffle.


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## Pat "5mph" (13 Mar 2015)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Only 183 signatures so far which I find both surprising and disappointing.


We discovered today that if you try to access the petition from a phone (we tries 3 different phones on 3 different networks) the link come up with " security certificate revoked, access denied, do you want to continue?"
Maybe this put people off signing.
You must also click on a verifying email link for your signature to be counted, it could be some missed out this step.


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## snorri (13 Mar 2015)

cardiac case said:


> The trouble is, if you cut speeds in half, you get twice as much traffic.



Trouble is?
The increase in traffic will be made up of people encouraged by the safer and cleaner environment to walk and cycle. As 20mph areas are invariably urban areas with retail businesses a higher throughput of people can only be a good thing.


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## Tin Pot (13 Mar 2015)

Disagree.

Speed is the least significant factor to be addressed. So many other things should be done instead.


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## glenn forger (13 Mar 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> Disagree.
> 
> Speed is the least significant factor to be addressed. So many other things should be done instead.



Speed is the single most common factor in fatal KSI. No other factor comes close. This is basic human body physics, we can survive a collision while running at full speed, above that speed the likelihood of death rises dramatically, that's why 20mph zones see reductions in KSI rates of up to 40%, that's why you will be unable to name any other road safety initiative that can achieve such a reduction.


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## glenn forger (13 Mar 2015)

*UK cities should have more 20mph speed zones, as they have cut road injuries by over 40% in London, a study claims.*

In particular the number of children killed or seriously injured has been halved over the past 15 years, the British Medical Journal reported.

The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine study estimates 20mph zones have the potential to prevent up to 700 casualties in London alone.

At 20mph, it is estimated only one in 40 pedestrians is killed in a crash.

This compares with a one in five chance for someone hit at 30mph.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8406569.stm


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## cardiac case (14 Mar 2015)

Sorry. Just a generalisation and only my opinion.

I work on the principle that if you travel at half the speed then you take twice as long to get to your destination.
If everyone spends twice as long to make their journey then at any one moment in time there's twice the traffic.


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## glenn forger (14 Mar 2015)

Average speed in London is 11mph. This means the higher speeds are simply drivers accelerating like idiots between junctions, queues, traffic lights. The BMJ and UCL both conducted research on this. The 20mph zones in Islington, Camden, City of London, Southwark and Hackney all saw a reduction in RTCs and injuries and NO rise in congestion or pollution.


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## Tin Pot (14 Mar 2015)

glenn forger said:


> Speed is the single most common factor in fatal KSI. No other factor comes close. This is basic human body physics, we can survive a collision while running at full speed, above that speed the likelihood of death rises dramatically, that's why 20mph zones see reductions in KSI rates of up to 40%, that's why you will be unable to name any other road safety initiative that can achieve such a reduction.



So actual number of collisions is irrelevant?

The argument against speed is the same as any simplistic approach to complex problems - appealing to intuition and yet fundamentally flawed.


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## Tin Pot (14 Mar 2015)

[QUOTE 3589609, member: 45"]That's what the apologists try to argue, but it's not true.[/QUOTE]
Apologists? Hah!

Apologising for what and or whom?


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## Tin Pot (15 Mar 2015)

[QUOTE 3590013, member: 45"]Speed apologists suggest that it's more complicated than inappropriate speed and then divert the discussion on to other factors, hoping that people will forget the going too fast bit.[/QUOTE]

You're not being clear on what it is you think that I'm apologising for, but I'm guessing you don't want to - so I'll leave it at that.


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## glenn forger (19 Mar 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> So actual number of collisions is irrelevant?
> 
> .



How do you work that out? Collisions are what's hurting people. Lower speeds reduce the number of KSI RTCs and so reduce the number of injuries. Pretty straightforward.

To put the dangerousness of speed into perspective, how many drivers care about or would notice a 2mph reduction in their average speed? Yet, averaged across the entire road network, a mere 2mph reduction in average speeds would prevent more than 200 deaths and 3,500 serious casualties a year.


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## Tin Pot (19 Mar 2015)

glenn forger said:


> How do you work that out? Collisions are what's hurting people. Lower speeds reduce the number of KSI RTCs and so reduce the number of injuries. Pretty straightforward.
> 
> To put the dangerousness of speed into perspective, how many drivers care about or would notice a 2mph reduction in their average speed? Yet, averaged across the entire road network, a mere 2mph reduction in average speeds would prevent more than 200 deaths and 3,500 serious casualties a year.


I think you misunderstood me. I was pointing out that reducing numbers of collisions could be more important than just the speed of vehicles as a counter to the argument for focussing only on speed limits.

And I think you're second paragraph alludes to the speed of collisions rather than average traffic speed?


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## glenn forger (19 Mar 2015)

Tin Pot said:


> I think you misunderstood me. I was pointing out that reducing numbers of collisions could be more important than just the speed of vehicles as a counter to the argument for focussing only on speed limits.
> 
> And I think you're second paragraph alludes to the speed of collisions rather than average traffic speed?



If you read my post carefully I think you'll begin to understand.


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## Tin Pot (20 Mar 2015)

Where is all this apologising you keep inferring?


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## Bad Company (30 Apr 2015)

The good people of Worthing got it right:-

http://20spointless.org.uk/worthing-herald-poll/

No apologising there.


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## glenn forger (1 May 2015)

That looks like an impartial website


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## Bad Company (1 May 2015)

glenn forger said:


> That looks like an impartial website



Impartial enough to win the vote.


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## Markymark (1 May 2015)

Bad Company said:


> Impartial enough to win the vote.


Sometimes idiots vote for the wrong thing....look at UKIP


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## glenn forger (1 May 2015)

Bad Company said:


> Impartial enough to win the vote.



If you have so much time on your hands that you hang around cycling websites promoting an idealogy that will see people get hurt it's not beyond the realms of possibility that others with your mindset will spam the survey. Your idealogical comrade Keith Peat has just received an admonishment from the Leicester newspaper who reported a cyclist hurt on the roads. Peat, who like you opposes road safety measures, posted to discourage anyone from helping the police. When hatred of cyclists gets that extreme you can see how surveys can be rigged.


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## glenn forger (1 May 2015)

(83% of 170 = 142 people who voted against. By comparison, the campaign has attracted over 1200 petition signatures in favour without really putting effort into collecting signatures.

As I've said before I challenge anyone who is against 20 mph limits to find just one road in Worthing where the majority of residents are against it. 

Strangely the anti-20 mph voices still haven't responded to this challenge!)


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## Bad Company (1 May 2015)

glenn forger said:


> (83% of 170 = 142 people who voted against. By comparison, the campaign has attracted over 1200 petition signatures in favour without really putting effort into collecting signatures.
> 
> As I've said before I challenge anyone who is against 20 mph limits to find just one road in Worthing where the majority of residents are against it.
> 
> Strangely the anti-20 mph voices still haven't responded to this challenge!)



The numbers in Worthing were:-


18,911 individual respondents voted


5796 (30.6%) individual respondents voted Yes


13,115 (69.4%) individual respondents voted No 

If you are right and the majority of residents wanted the 20 limit why did they not vote?


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## Drago (1 May 2015)

Ask the families of dead pedestrians and cyclists and see what they reckon.

As an occasional car/truck driver myself I can't see the problem with doing 20 instead of 30. So you're going a little slower, whoopee doo.


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## glasgowcyclist (12 May 2015)

Petitioners for the 20mph scheme in Glasgow made their presentation to the council today and "_were met with unanimous cross-party support_". 

The Go-Bike report goes on to say,
_"The petition is now to be passed to the Policy and Resources Committee and council staff have been asked to prepare details and a revised timescale for 20mph implementation, ie a timescale significantly shorter than the 40 years based on their current rate of progress."_​
Great news.


GC


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2015)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Petitioners for the 20mph scheme in Glasgow made their presentation to the council today and "_were met with unanimous cross-party support_".
> 
> The Go-Bike report goes on to say,
> _"The petition is now to be passed to the Policy and Resources Committee and council staff have been asked to prepare details and a revised timescale for 20mph implementation, ie a timescale significantly shorter than the 40 years based on their current rate of progress."_​
> ...


Yeah, around here, on the South Lanarkshire border, most side streets have already 20mph speed limit. Not all drivers observe it, but those streets are the ones I prefer to cycle on.


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## Markymark (12 May 2015)

Who cares how many politicians agree? Makes no odds until the police enforce it. 

Until you get their support its just metal circles with numbers on them.


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## Markymark (12 May 2015)

[QUOTE 3691532, member: 45"]No, it's not. Some people don't need to be forced to follow speed limits, and this has an effect on the rest of the traffic.[/QUOTE]
Got them splattered all over the roads here in London and makes no odds to what I see. Only place I see slowing are in bridges with cameras.


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## Pat "5mph" (12 May 2015)

0-markymark-0 said:


> Who cares how many politicians agree? Makes no odds until the police enforce it.
> 
> Until you get their support its just metal circles with numbers on them.


Me to the local shopkeeper bombing down the road in his car:
this street is 20mph, you know? 
him: I am late for work 
At least we can point it out to drivers ... while they run us over


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## Feastie (21 May 2015)

I always find this one weird because my personal experience of 20mph zones (I live in one of them in London) is that they actually feel a lot more dangerous to cycle in, I'm always glad to be out of mine. The speed bumps required are the real problem - people try to overtake you because they feel they should and then they remember about the speed bumps and I can't count the number of times I've had somebody accelerate in front of me and then suddenly brake. Or do some insane overtakes into the opposite lane, and often directly into oncoming traffic, just to get around me in the gaps between speed bumps. And the bumps themselves are a pain for *me* to cycle over, as they're pretty monstrous. To avoid them means risking being doored on one side or splatted by an angry overtaker on the other.

One person's experience isn't obviously the same as all this research, but if I moved somewhere else and we were having this debate, I wouldn't actually vote in favour of a 20mph zone either. Or if I did, it would have to be 20mph with cameras and not speed bumps. Just my opinion on it.


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## NorthernDave (27 May 2015)

Where I live has been a 20mph zone since 2000.
Despite being off the 'main' road its a busy area, with 3 high frequency bus routes and is a cut through between two main routes.
The speed limit is routinely ignored by virtually everyone. In fact I often feel like I'm the only person who even tries to stick to the limit.
So whilst more and more 20 mph zones are being introduced across the city it's a largely empty gesture as there are no resources from the police to mount any form of enforcement.


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## glenn forger (29 May 2015)

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ctually-work-london-brighton#comment-52962437


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## whosadam (7 Jul 2015)

Its clear that reducing the speed limit goes hand in hand with reducing road deaths and serious injuries.
But as has been made clear by everyone above - Getting drivers to slow down is hard.

I believe that safety for cyclists has to come from a wide range of angles.
But to start I feel it would be better having a mandatory cycle awareness training for motorists, Starting with HGV and other Commerical Vehicle drivers (including taxis!!!) before encompassing everyday drivers.

Many of the problems we encounter are because of drivers not understanding our position on the road, why we act in certain ways and certainly because they know not of how it feels to be squeezed or turned left on when they haven't got their indicators on. Empathy and Understanding is what we need to create between car drivers and bicycle riders!


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## LetMeEatCake (27 Oct 2015)

A bit of thread resurrection - got email to say that the petition had 'concluded'. Seems the council have agreed with the petition's aims and - hold on to your hats - have instructed the land department to submit a report on "how this could be resourced to assist in progressing the Council’s overarching vision for road safety." I'm pleased it's received positive attention from the council - but concerned that the idea might just be slowly swallowed up in bureaucratic sludge.


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