# I am confused about range on electric bikes and is it honest?



## RyanUK (7 Sep 2020)

Hello Everyone,

I am new to this forum, and a bit new to cycling in general. I was looking at electric bikes, and I found a huge disparity in the advertised range on bikes and I do not know what to make of it. I am based in the UK, and the current UK law is that electric bikes can be up to 250 Wh and go up to 15.5 mph. This is my understanding, is that if they had too much power, they would go into the sphere of motorcycle type of transport.

Anyway, I was looking at Swytch Bike conversion kit which advertises an expected range of 30 miles on its 250 Wh battery: https://prnt.sc/ud8w3r 

Then I looked at some of the purpose-built electric bikes from the cheap ones to the well known brands, and they were all quoting really high ranges compared to the Swytch Bikes. For example, the VanMoof S3 electric bike advertises 37-93 miles range (60-150km) with 504 Wh battery capacity. I can see that the Swytch has 250 Wh battery capacity so almost half of the VanMoof, and that is probably the main reason for the extra range. However, what I don't understand is that they are advertising the 504 Wh battery capacity to UK customers with UK prices, but when they sell it, will they be giving the UK customers the 504 Wh battery capacity or limit the battery capacity to 250 Wh?

Does anyone know if the ranges estimated by these companies is accurate or not? And is the range based on no pedalling at all or medium pedalling?

If anyone in the UK has bought a pre-built electric bike, can you let me know if it was restricted to 250 Wh or did you get a much higher capacity (technically illegal) but I have heard that many or some people have them!

Thank you.


----------



## Drago (8 Sep 2020)

My ebike is a legal 250W job. The battery is relatively low capacity and i am a heavy rider, but typically achieve 35 miles of assisted range. Of course, I can double that by switching it off when not necessary, using lower assist settings, or travelling beyond 15.5mpg and making my legs to all the work.

Certain things will affect range. Motor power, gearing, battery capacity, temperature, rider weight, riding style, and the manner in which the system is used. Bosch have a tange calculator on their website, but at best its guesswork. The variables are so numerous the only way you will ever really know for any given bike is to ride it a few hundred miles and see for yourself.

Illegal bikes are frowmed upon, and not popular in these parts. Right or wrong, their usage reflects badly on all cyclists. In addition, is it worth the grief of getting knocked off for lthe various document offences? Being had for no insurance is a particular kicker as it is also considered a dishonesty offence - itll show up on DBS checks so you san kiss goodbye to any job that requires one, and you'll struggle to get insurance of any type for years to come, and when you do you will be anally invaded for the quote.

If you want a speed pedelec - as they are known - do it properly. You can buy them already registered, or register one yourself, and ensure youve got the necessaty licence and insurance. Only a twit with utter contempt for those that share the road would consider driving any vehicle unlaefully.

PS - don't confuse battery capacity with motor output. You can have a gazillion Wh battery, but the electeonics regulate the output and as a result the motor may still provide a completely legal 250W power.


----------



## RyanUK (8 Sep 2020)

Hi Drago, thank you. What you say makes sense and I kind of understood most of that from reading various articles on e-bikes. However, as I explained I could not understand the huge disparity in the range quoted by ebike companies on their website. My best guess is that Swytch being a British company (although selling globally) is taking the cautious or realistic approach to their range estimates and that most companies are exaggerating things, often doubling the average, which hardly anyone is going to achieve. That is my best guess. I have sent an email to VanMoof asking them for an explanation. I haven't heard back yet. I basically asked them as a UK resident could I buy the 504 Wh ebike, and if not and it had to be limited to 250 Wh, then what would the estimated range of my 250 Wh Vanmoof ebike be? I hope they reply, it would be interesting to hear what they say.


----------



## Phaeton (8 Sep 2020)

I have a Cube MTB ebike, with a 250W motor & a 500aH battery, it has 4 assist settings, 5 if you include off, it also has a display showing 5 bar LED's for battery remaining, I can go out on a relatively 30 mile flat route with it on Economy assist & still come back with 4 bars, similarly I can go out on a hilly 20 mile route where I have used more assist & come back with 3 bars. It's one of those how long is a piece of string questions sorry, I believe I could easily get over 60 maybe even 80 miles of assist out of mine if used sparingly as I do.


----------



## welsh dragon (8 Sep 2020)

The ranges quoted are very much like the ranges quoted for electric cars. 

So much depends on the weight of the bike, the weight of the rider, the type of roads that you ride on IE flat or hilly. The speed that you go, the Amount of assistance that you use etc.

They are estimates only. There are so many variables, the bike manufacturers cannot give guarantees

Weather conditions can also be a factor. Very cold weather might drain the battery faster than warm weather


----------



## RyanUK (8 Sep 2020)

Phaeton said:


> I have a Cube MTB ebike, with a 250W motor & a 500aH battery, it has 4 assist settings, 5 if you include off, it also has a display showing 5 bar LED's for battery remaining, I can go out on a relatively 30 mile flat route with it on Economy assist & still come back with 4 bars, similarly I can go out on a hilly 20 mile route where I have used more assist & come back with 3 bars. It's one of those how long is a piece of string questions sorry, I believe I could easily get over 60 maybe even 80 miles of assist out of mine if used sparingly as I do.


How much did your Cube bike cost you? I went on their website, and I noticed that some of them weighed about 25 KG (135 KG structural weight). That seemed like a lot to me. They also seemed very expensive. I was seeing bikes in the price range of £4,000 to £8,000! 

But it did look like quality. But I know very little at this stage. I am considering getting the Swytch Bike kit, as it seems more affordable to me. Thanks.


----------



## Specialeyes (8 Sep 2020)

The UK limit is on the power of the motor, measured in watts (250), not the capacity of the battery expressed in Watt-Hours. Don't confuse watts with watt-hours.

_Broadly speaking_ you'd expect a 500Wh battery to keep going twice as long as a 250Wh battery, whatever the other factors (rider weight + power output, terrain, average speed, rolling resistance etc.) but no-one rides their bike like a robot in a lab.


----------



## mustang1 (8 Sep 2020)

Drago said:


> My ebike is a legal 250W job. The battery is relatively low capacity and i am a heavy rider, but typically achieve 35 miles of assisted range. Of course, I can double that by switching it off when not necessary, using lower assist settings, or travelling beyond 15.5mpg and making my legs to all the work.
> 
> Certain things will affect range. Motor power, gearing, battery capacity, temperature, rider weight, riding style, and the manner in which the system is used. Bosch have a tange calculator on their website, but at best its guesswork. The variables are so numerous the only way you will ever really know for any given bike is to ride it a few hundred miles and see for yourself.
> 
> ...



Which mode do you get 35 miles on (eco, medium, turbo etc) ?


----------



## Phaeton (8 Sep 2020)

RyanUK said:


> How much did your Cube bike cost you?


It cost just over £1600 they matched the Cycle to Work scheme price & I paid on card, from https://www.leisurewheels.co.uk/ it's https://www.cube.eu/en/2020/e-bikes...cube-acid-hybrid-one-500-29-bluenorange-2020/ weighs about 22Kg


----------



## TheDoctor (8 Sep 2020)

RyanUK said:


> ...I basically asked them as a UK resident *could I buy the 504 Wh ebike, and if not and it had to be limited to 250 Wh*, then what would the estimated range of my 250 Wh Vanmoof ebike be? I hope they reply, it would be interesting to hear what they say.


You're confusing two different things, I think.
The motor is limited to 250W power output. The battery capacity, in Wh, can be as big as you're prepared to pay for and carry about.
Range on ebikes is very variable. My cheap Ebay bike will do about 30k with some pedalling, but the time the chain broke and I was solely relying on the motor, I got about 15k out of the battery. As my commute was about 14k at the time, I was very nervous by the time I got to the end of my road!


----------



## RyanUK (8 Sep 2020)

TheDoctor said:


> You're confusing two different things, I think.
> The motor is limited to 250W power output. The battery capacity, in Wh, can be as big as you're prepared to pay for and carry about.
> Range on ebikes is very variable. My cheap Ebay bike will do about 30k with some pedalling, but the time the chain broke and I was solely relying on the motor, I got about 15k out of the battery. As my commute was about 14k at the time, I was very nervous by the time I got to the end of my road!


Yes, you are right. I was confusing Wh with W. Most of them are not very clear. I was trying to work out if the Swytch bike I want is good value for money compared to the off-the-shelf ebikes out there. I also didn't like the look or design of some of the ebikes out there and the ones I did like tended to be very expensive, or they didn't have the size I wanted. So, there was always one trade off or the other. Hence why I felt the swytch bike seemed liked a good deal. Thanks.


----------



## TheDoctor (8 Sep 2020)

No worries. I've been looking at Swytch myself, as the cheapest option to electrify my Brompton.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (8 Sep 2020)

Assuming that you go for a legal ebike for the UK - i.e. ROAD legal - if you don;t want to ride it on publics roads, cycle paths etc etc then anything is legal - then the motor almost certainly will be 250W
So the power is fixed - but the range, under ideal conditions - varies from make to make.
In my experience this is due to 
a) exaggeration from some manufacturers
b) efficency of the motor and drive train

I used to have a 180W (old regs) ebike with a battey of 14Ah after recelling which would do about 50 miles per charge. My current ebike is a Raleigh Motus with an 8Ah battery but it has the same sort of range - which I (based on naff all proper evidence) assume is due to a more efficent motor.

It looks as if the big companies are quite honest about range - assuming that you don't go up any hills and there is little or no wind and the road is reasonably smooth - and the weather is warm (which makes a big difference!!)
So my Motus can do 50 miles - which is actually a bit higher than I have seen quoted, in spite of me normally using Tour mode rather than Eco.
Other manufacturers seem to make claims that are more 'optimistic'!


----------



## Drago (8 Sep 2020)

mustang1 said:


> Which mode do you get 35 miles on (eco, medium, turbo etc) ?


Flicking between all 3, but mainly on medium.


----------



## CXRAndy (8 Sep 2020)

The Wattage hours W/h of the battery is a number to indicate how many Watts it can supply in one hour

eg 750W/h can supply 750W for 1 hour or 250Watts for 3 hours.

The example above easily works with a 250 Watt motor. If you were to use the full 250W you would ride for 3 hours, at 15 mph. A range of 45 miles.


In reality, you wont use 250W all the time so range will be increased if you put some effort in. 

250W motors are rated for continuous output. In reality they can put out much more in short bursts, 500-750W being possible.

I disagree with Drago, modified ebikes are common and are as safe as others. Its the rider that makes a device reckless. If you want a bit more power to get you up steep climbs where you live, so be it, or clamp max power to 150W to increase range that's ok too.


----------



## simon.r (8 Sep 2020)

Specialized Turbo Vado here, UK legal, 2019 model with the 500wH battery.

Real world range, using power as appropriate on an undulating route is about 50 miles.


----------



## lyn1 (9 Sep 2020)

We have 2 Canyon road bikes. The power has 3 settings, effectively low, medium, high. Riding constantly on low and at under 15 mph (other than downhill) we get 50 ish miles, which is what is advertised.


----------



## cougie uk (9 Sep 2020)

If you look up Roner Llewellyn's Fully Charged YouTube channel he converted his bike using Swytch a few weeks ago.


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Sep 2020)

simon.r said:


> Specialized Turbo Vado here, UK legal, 2019 model with the 500wH battery.
> 
> Real world range, using power as appropriate on an undulating route is about 50 miles.





lyn1 said:


> We have 2 Canyon road bikes. The power has 3 settings, effectively low, medium, high. Riding constantly on low and at under 15 mph (other than downhill) we get 50 ish miles, which is what is advertised.



This is what it boils down to, a 500wh battery on a full assist legal bike on a good day will get you 50 miles.

It matters not what bike you have, what type of motor you have, or what you paid for it.

My ludicrously expensive Riese and Muller with its Bosch crank drive will give about the same range as a hub drive Halford's cheapie.

More accurately, they will consume roughly the same amount of power.

The batteries on my bike are bigger than those on the Halfords bikes, but that's the only reason my bike goes further.

The light assist motors, such as the Fazua and Ebikemotion, as fitted on some roadie style bikes, will go further than 50 miles, but then so will the full assist bikes, such as the Bosch, when the wick is turned right down.


----------



## RichardB (7 Oct 2020)

Wisper 905 Classic. When I was commuting on it, I was using full assist all the time. I tend to use the assist to get speed up and then pedal like fury to keep at or above 15 mph. Also of course the helping hand going up hills (my commute was very hilly). Wisper quoted a range of 50-60 miles, from memory. Most days I covered 25-30 miles and had 3/5 or 4/5 lights left on the battery indicator, so I think the quoted range was fairly honest.

The Wisper has a twist throttle that will power the bike without pedalling, but it's fairly slow and I wouldn't try to cover any distance on it. I've only used it once on the road, when the chain slipped off and I needed to get out of the way of a tractor PDQ. I believe 2014 (the year of my bike) was the last year that these throttles were legal, but I could be wrong.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> Wisper 905 Classic. When I was commuting on it, I was using full assist all the time. I tend to use the assist to get speed up and then pedal like fury to keep at or above 15 mph. Also of course the helping hand going up hills (my commute was very hilly). Wisper quoted a range of 50-60 miles, from memory. Most days I covered 25-30 miles and had 3/5 or 4/5 lights left on the battery indicator, so I think the quoted range was fairly honest.
> 
> The Wisper has a twist throttle that will power the bike without pedalling, but it's fairly slow and I wouldn't try to cover any distance on it. I've only used it once on the road, when the chain slipped off and I needed to get out of the way of a tractor PDQ. I believe 2014 (the year of my bike) was the last year that these throttles were legal, but I could be wrong.


The switch over date for the regs was 2016
before that you could legally have a throttle (my Powacycle Salisbury had one) but the power was limited to 200W rather than the current (sorry) 250W
Ebikes manufactured before then can still be used because they get 'grandfather rights' - but they must stick to all the old regs - not just have an old ebike and put a 250W motor in it

As with all ebike regs - I do not think anyone has ever tried to properly test this in court - so $deity knows what would happen if you tried it - although how the cops would find out is uncertain - as is why they would bother


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (7 Oct 2020)

I have re-read my previous reply on here and I thought there was a point worth adding

I have had 2 hub drive ebikes - one is still my wife's - and both were/are at the lower end of the market. My own ebike has a Bosch centre drive. I find that on the cheapo hub drive the 'torque sensor' is either just a motion detector - or is not very sensitive. This has the effect that you can fool the system in kicking the motor up to full power by pedalling very gently with very little effort at all - hence the bike accelerates up and maintains a reasonable speed using pretty much only battery power.

However, on my Bosch system you can;t really fool it as easily - in other words it actually looks at the pressure you are putting on the pedals and the motor responds to that. So, if you ease off the effort then the motor does the same and you slow down - especially if you have the assistance level set low.

This results in the range for the Bosch system looking good compared to the cheap hub drive - but it gets this extra range my making me do more work and the motor less work.

I don;t know how more expensive hub drive systems work so they may be better - but that is how it has been on the hub drive systems I have seen.


----------



## Drago (7 Oct 2020)

Everything a manufacturer or retail claims is bunkum, from the MPG your car will achieve through to the sex appeal that Lynx body spray will bestow. Ebikes are no different, although they do smell nicer than Lynx.


----------



## RichardB (7 Oct 2020)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> The switch over date for the regs was 2016
> before that you could legally have a throttle (my Powacycle Salisbury had one) but the power was limited to 200W rather than the current (sorry) 250W
> Ebikes manufactured before then can still be used because they get 'grandfather rights' - but they must stick to all the old regs - not just have an old ebike and put a 250W motor in it
> 
> As with all ebike regs - I do not think anyone has ever tried to properly test this in court - so $deity knows what would happen if you tried it - although how the cops would find out is uncertain - as is why they would bother



My Wisper is 2014 manufacture and has a 250W motor. However, the power available to the twistgrip is nothing like as much (almost akin to the 'walking' mode my wife's Raleigh Motus had). Perhaps that is what is restricted.

As anyone who owns and rides an ebike probably knows more about them and the relevant regs than the average copper, I take your point about getting caught. There's a guy on Youtube who has put a (I think) 1300W motor in a mountain bike, which will do 30+ mph without pedalling. I suspect he will get caught one day, but a normal-looking, sensibly-ridden bike will be safe.



ebikeerwidnes said:


> I have re-read my previous reply on here and I thought there was a point worth adding
> 
> I have had 2 hub drive ebikes - one is still my wife's - and both were/are at the lower end of the market. My own ebike has a Bosch centre drive. I find that on the cheapo hub drive the 'torque sensor' is either just a motion detector - or is not very sensitive. This has the effect that you can fool the system in kicking the motor up to full power by pedalling very gently with very little effort at all - hence the bike accelerates up and maintains a reasonable speed using pretty much only battery power.
> 
> ...



I can compare the two. My Wisper has a 'motion sensor' hub drive and my wife's Motus had a torque sensor crank drive. The crank drive felt more natural, but I am used to the little surge of power you get with a hub drive and I quite like it. I am sure that crank drives are superior in many ways, but a significant disadvantage is that all the effort of the motor goes through the transmission. Clumsy or power-on gear changes will wear the transmission very rapidly. The hub motor is independent of the gears, so the wear on the sprockets and derailleur is no more than on a conventional bike. However, the hub motor doesn't benefit from the low gearing on a steep hill either, and can get close to stalling speed if the hill is really sharp. With a crank drive, the motor can spin faster and closer to its optimum rpm. Again, just my experience.

One other thing: my Wisper is a rear hub drive, but many hub drive bikes have the motor in the front wheel. That's effectively a two-wheel drive bike and should theoretically be much more sure-footed in the wet and snow. Possibly.


----------



## beastie (8 Oct 2020)

RyanUK said:


> Hi Drago, thank you. What you say makes sense and I kind of understood most of that from reading various articles on e-bikes. However, as I explained I could not understand the huge disparity in the range quoted by ebike companies on their website. My best guess is that Swytch being a British company (although selling globally) is taking the cautious or realistic approach to their range estimates and that most companies are exaggerating things, often doubling the average, which hardly anyone is going to achieve. That is my best guess. I have sent an email to VanMoof asking them for an explanation. I haven't heard back yet. I basically asked them as a UK resident could I buy the 504 Wh ebike, and if not and it had to be limited to 250 Wh, then what would the estimated range of my 250 Wh Vanmoof ebike be? I hope they reply, it would be interesting to hear what they say.


I have the 250W Swytch kit on my gravel bike ATM. I'm gonna pop a more detailed review later. 
1. It works, and so far after 1 month no worries. 9/10
2. It was very easy to fit, < 1H including putting on a tyre, disc rotor, fitting the kit and fettling. 9/10 
3. The battery range is IMO a generous estimate, but it is not massively off. 6/10
4. It looks a bit old fashioned with the bar mounted battery. 7/10
5. It cost £420ish, after duty and exchange rate. Very good value at this price. 9/10
6. It took an AGE to arrive, partly due to Covid, but it was 5 months late and then the pedal sensor was another 1month. 3/10
7. All my emails were answered promptly enough 7/10
I probably will buy a dedicated e-bike after this kit dies, but as a low cost entry to ebiking (and putting it on any bike) it's pretty good.


----------



## gzoom (9 Oct 2020)

Pale Rider said:


> This is what it boils down to, a 500wh battery on a full assist legal bike on a good day will get you 50 miles.........
> 
> ..........The light assist motors, such as the Fazua and Ebikemotion, as fitted on some roadie style bikes, will go further than 50 miles, but then so will the full assist bikes, such as the Bosch, when the wick is turned right down.



Surely its all dependent on the rider and effort you put in?

If I use the full assistance on the Fazua and stay below 15mph I recon I could drain the battery is less than 30 miles. But having 300watts on tap for an effort of 70watts (so near 400watts combined) equates to doing about as much exercise as sitting on the sofa having a beer!!

If I ride the Fazua as hard as I would my road bike am seeing a range of 100 miles, with average speeds of 17.5-18mph over rolling terrain, so barely slower than my road bike but with added 'comfort' features like mudguards, more relaxed geometry, fat tyres and disc brakes.

50 miles from 500wh battery seems vert low though. Maybe its because a 500wh battery eBike is so much heavier to ride without any motor input its simply too hard work for the rider?

My Fazua eBike at 16kg already feels very heavy to ride unassisted especially on inclines, a 20kg+ eBike must feel awful to handle without motor assistance?


----------



## simon.r (9 Oct 2020)

I’m sure there’s some resistance from the motor over 15.5mph on my Specialized. Anything over that speed on the flat is really quite hard work, even allowing for the 25kg weight of the bike.


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Oct 2020)

gzoom said:


> If I ride the Fazua as hard as I would my road bike am seeing a range of 100 miles, with average speeds of 17.5-18mph over rolling terrain,



I don't doubt it, but with that average your average battery use is zero, so you will get a long range.



gzoom said:


> 50 miles from 500wh battery seems vert low though.



If anything, it's slightly optimistic.

Have a play with the Bosch range assistant, which gives a realistic estimate for any road legal 'full assist' ebike.

Most of the roadie ebikes have much weaker motors, so with a light, fit rider they could give longer range.

At t'other end of the scale, there's a GCN emtb video of a ride in adverse conditions on the South Downs Way in which they flattened a 500wh battery in about 20 miles.

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/


----------



## RichardB (9 Oct 2020)

simon.r said:


> I’m sure there’s some resistance from the motor over 15.5mph on my Specialized. Anything over that speed on the flat is really quite hard work, even allowing for the 25kg weight of the bike.



Strange, that. Once I get the Wisper over 16 mph it absolutely flies. I find it as easy to keep up 16-17 mph on the flat as I do on any other bike. It doesn't feel like there is any resistance at all - apart from the massive weight, it rides like a decent bike.


----------



## simon.r (9 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> Strange, that. Once I get the Wisper over 16 mph it absolutely flies. I find it as easy to keep up 16-17 mph on the flat as I do on any other bike. It doesn't feel like there is any resistance at all - apart from the massive weight, it rides like a decent bike.



I vaguely recall reading something about some ebikes having motors that ‘disconnect’ at speeds over 15.5mph, which suggests that some don’t. Not an expert, so can’t add anything else I’m afraid.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (9 Oct 2020)

simon.r said:


> I vaguely recall reading something about some ebikes having motors that ‘disconnect’ at speeds over 15.5mph, which suggests that some don’t. Not an expert, so can’t add anything else I’m afraid.


In the Eu - and UK - the motor cut off speed is 15.5 mpg (it makes sence in kph) - so at that point the motor assist stops - and it is supposed to gradually wind down up to that point

Which is probably what you have heard about

Clearly it is possible to get hold of ebikes that have more powerful motors and a higher cut-off - but these are illegal on public road, tracks paths etc - and 'some people' modify their bike to increase the cut-off speed


----------



## Mike_P (9 Oct 2020)

Once its reached 15.5 whilst the motor stops assisting the weight of an ebike gives it a fair amount of momentum. The one thing that often tricks me is coming off a steep descent, where the ebike under its own weight had reached 25+ mph, only to go back up is judging what gear is appropriate for when the motor kicks back in some distance up the climb without spinning madly before it does.
In terms of battery life its often recommended not to fully charge nor not to fully discharge a battery which obviously effects range. Mine had dropped enough for the amber warning light to come on the control unit on Monday and I charged it up until four bars were solid and the fifth flashing on the battery's own indicator although when fitted back on the bike all five LEDs on the control unit lit. It's now done 30.9 miles with 2155ft of ascent and is showing two LEDs.


----------



## RichardB (9 Oct 2020)

simon.r said:


> I vaguely recall reading something about some ebikes having motors that ‘disconnect’ at speeds over 15.5mph, which suggests that some don’t. Not an expert, so can’t add anything else I’m afraid.



Mine is totally legal, i.e. it cuts out at 25 kph/15.5 mph. You can hear the motor cutting back as you go over 15 mph, and it's totally silent by 16 mph. It's just a nice, free-running bike with truly MASSIVE inertia once it's moving


----------



## jowwy (12 Oct 2020)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> In the Eu - and UK - the motor cut off speed is 15.5 mpg (it makes sence in kph) - so at that point the motor assist stops - *and it is supposed to gradually wind down up to that point*


never read anywhere where it states this.......all i have read is that it can assist upto 15.5mph


----------



## RichardB (12 Oct 2020)

jowwy said:


> never read anywhere where it states this.......all i have read is that it can assist upto 15.5mph



I think you're right. You can hear the motor on mine start to quieten at 15 mph and it's silent by 16 mph, so any cut-off of power is fairly quick but not sudden.


----------



## Drago (12 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> Strange, that. Once I get the Wisper over 16 mph it absolutely flies. I find it as easy to keep up 16-17 mph on the flat as I do on any other bike. It doesn't feel like there is any resistance at all - apart from the massive weight, it rides like a decent bike.


Same with my relatively mumdane Subway E. Its a weighty old lump but rolls very nively, so even with the motor off entirely its no chore. The combination of grip, steering and stability aces any one my conventional bikes and makes normally reckless twisty decents feel delightfully assured.


----------



## theboxers (12 Oct 2020)

My Cube Agree Hybrid runs the Fazua system. In standard form with, bottle cages, Cycliq lights front and back, Garmin Radar and head unit (1030), in size 56cm it weighed 15kg (checked when flying back from Spain). I have a recollection of it having a saddle bag on there as well, but I can't be sure.


RichardB said:


> I think you're right. You can hear the motor on mine start to quieten at 15 mph and it's silent by 16 mph, so any cut-off of power is fairly quick but not sudden.


Mine assists up to 25khm/15mph at which point there is a soft-ish cut off. It's not instant gone, at least to me, it's more of a roll off, all be it quite quickly over 2 to 3 seconds. The reverse happens when you fall below the limit. Although heavy by today's standards with regards to road bikes it does not feel dull without the assist running on 32mm tyres.

I currently weigh in at a small, for me, about 125kg (slowly getting smaller). Over the weight limit for the bike and wheels no doubt . But this is to show you how the bike runs for me.

I did a 75km ride with just shy of 1000m of climbing and arrived home with 40% battery. I try to only use the motor on hills I can't ride up. On the flat and upto about 6% I rarely use the assistance. I can carry a speed of >25kmh/15mph for a fair way on the flatter roads but once it starts to go up, even only 2%, that speed drops off. I can't recall exactly how much I used the motor but I only really had maybe 5-10km of road with sections higher than 6% and I only used the lowest power level I could get away with assist.

I want to get fitter and lose weight, it seems to be working , I set a PR on a 2km hill at the start of my ride without assist (the previous best was with assist ). So generally the way I use the motor is no assist for as long as I can get away with, then the lowest level I can get away with, . It doesn't make me much quicker, but it does mean I can ride for longer.

Whatever system you go for find the way it works best for you and make the most use of it, Oh and enjoy the zip along feeling


----------



## Mike_P (12 Oct 2020)

theboxers said:


> Mine assists up to 25khm/15mph


25kmh is 15.5mph


----------



## jowwy (12 Oct 2020)

theboxers said:


> My Cube Agree Hybrid runs the Fazua system. In standard form with, bottle cages, Cycliq lights front and back, Garmin Radar and head unit (1030), in size 56cm it weighed 15kg (checked when flying back from Spain). I have a recollection of it having a saddle bag on there as well, but I can't be sure.
> 
> Mine assists up to 25khm/15mph at which point there is a soft-ish cut off. It's not instant gone, at least to me, it's more of a roll off, all be it quite quickly over 2 to 3 seconds. The reverse happens when you fall below the limit. Although heavy by today's standards with regards to road bikes it does not feel dull without the assist running on 32mm tyres.
> 
> ...


How did you get the bike too and from Spain???


----------



## theboxers (12 Oct 2020)

jowwy said:


> How did you get the bike too and from Spain???


Easyjet in a Swift Carbon soft bike bag. The bags not cheap but it is well padded and comes with pad wraps for each tube, it only weighs about 5kg as well. I also made up 2 spacers to act as outers for the thru axels to keep the the forks and chainstays apart. More for my own sanity than any actual benefit I suspect


----------



## Saluki (12 Oct 2020)

Blokey got 128 miles using eco and occasionally turning off the electrical assist on a charge. He is around 115kg. Bike is a Moustache road bike.


----------



## jowwy (13 Oct 2020)

theboxers said:


> Easyjet in a Swift Carbon soft bike bag. The bags not cheap but it is well padded and comes with pad wraps for each tube, it only weighs about 5kg as well. I also made up 2 spacers to act as outers for the thru axels to keep the the forks and chainstays apart. More for my own sanity than any actual benefit I suspect


And they allow that size battery onboard the plane???


----------



## confusedcyclist (22 Oct 2020)

I enjoyed playing with this to see what kind of range you can expect under varied conditions.

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/


----------



## Stul (22 Oct 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> I enjoyed playing with this to see what kind of range you can expect under varied conditions.
> 
> https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/



I used this and it was bang on! When I got my Raleigh Centros the advertised range is 125 miles, but I accepted I was never going to get that, however a few months in and I am averaging around 90 miles range from a full charge. 

Again very dependent on hills/wind/weight etc. For most of my cycling (probably 95+%), I use "eco" mode and only use the higher settings for the steep hills.

One thing I find a complete waste of time is the "range" indication on the Bosch display. I went out for a ride the other day with a full battery (showing 95 mile range), and after 10miles it had dropped to 50 miles, at the end of the ride (about 25 miles), it was back up to 90 miles? I would rather just have a "percentage" left...(I know each of the 5 "bars" gives a range of between 16 and 24 miles).


----------



## RichardB (22 Oct 2020)

It's estimating your remaining range, based on your current power use and the remaining battery charge. So you go low power for a while, your apparent range increases. Many cars now do the same thing, based on current mpg and fuel remaining. Quite helpful in a car, but on a bike it's a case of the software being too clever for its own good. As you say, you want to know whether you will get home on what's left, not how far you might theoretically travel if x, y and z were to happen.


----------



## Pale Rider (23 Oct 2020)

confusedcyclist said:


> I enjoyed playing with this to see what kind of range you can expect under varied conditions.
> 
> https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/



I know you can't be arsed to read the thread.

Understandable - after all, it does run to as many as three pages.

But it was only on the previous page where I linked to the range assistant.


----------



## Drago (23 Oct 2020)

theboxers said:


> My Cube Agree Hybrid runs the Fazua system. In standard form with, bottle cages, Cycliq lights front and back, Garmin Radar and head unit (1030), in size 56cm it weighed 15kg (checked when flying back from Spain). I have a recollection of it having a saddle bag on there as well, but I can't be sure.
> 
> Mine assists up to 25khm/15mph at which point there is a soft-ish cut off. It's not instant gone, at least to me, it's more of a roll off, all be it quite quickly over 2 to 3 seconds. The reverse happens when you fall below the limit. Although heavy by today's standards with regards to road bikes it does not feel dull without the assist running on 32mm tyres.
> 
> ...


All well and good, but if, as you say, you only use the motor on the hills then large portions of your mileage will be without the motor, which makes the quoted mileage a bit questionable. 

If I only use the motor on the hills i can get 200+ miles out of mine, but in no way does that means it has 200+ miles of assisted range. That'd be like claiming your torch has this wonderful battery that lasts 10 years because you never use it.


----------



## CXRAndy (23 Oct 2020)

I reckon the recalculated range from lowering power assist is a good feature. Or its a seat of the pants guess from experience. 

My wife's bike doesn't have sufficient mileage to conclusively say what its definite range is. When we first got it setup, I fully charged the battery and she got to 90 miles before getting to dangerous level battery levels, so estimated 110 miles but we did baby the assist to see how far it would go.

This summer gone she got 46 miles from 85% charge on a total flat ride. She used assist all the time and gradually increased more assist as the ride extended. The battery went into shutdown 500 yds from home. I must admit my wife rode shotgun into lots of headwind, her bike could hold the speed. I only took over later on when she began to tire herself.


----------



## Pale Rider (23 Oct 2020)

Drago said:


> All well and good, but if, as you say, you only use the motor on the hills then large portions of your mileage will be without the motor, which makes the quoted mileage a bit questionable.
> 
> If I only use the motor on the hills i can get 200+ miles out of mine, but in no way does that means it has 200+ miles of assisted range. That'd be like claiming your torch has this wonderful battery that lasts 10 years because you never use it.



Quite so.

People use their bikes as they like, which is fine.

But range quotes with the motor switched off part of the time are largely meaningless, and could mislead someone new to ebikes.


----------



## Drago (23 Oct 2020)

Ive been playing a new game - keep the assist switched on, but try and keep pedalling fast enough that it doesnt dip below 15.5MPH so the motor doesn't engage. Serious improvements to my fitness, its good fun, and the 'range' im managing is impressive.


----------



## RichardB (23 Oct 2020)

Drago said:


> Ive been playing a new game - keep the assist switched on, but try and keep pedalling fast enough that it doesnt dip below 15.5MPH so the motor doesn't engage. Serious improvements to my fitness, its good fun, and the 'range' im managing is impressive.



It's a good game, one I played for 80% of the journey when I was commuting (the other 20% were hills where I needed all the help I could get). Basically, use the battery to get up to cruising altitude, and then pedal like **** to stop the motor kicking in. As you say, it gives you a good workout.


----------



## Phil Fouracre (24 Oct 2020)

Yup! It’s a great game, and, definitely trashes the ‘ebiking is no good for fitness’ argument :-)


----------



## gzoom (24 Oct 2020)

If you put the effort in eBikes make you just as hard as normal bike, and in some cases you end up working harder even when going up a hill!!


View: https://youtu.be/fBof7BL-mQQ


----------



## ColinJ (24 Oct 2020)

gzoom said:


> If you put the effort in eBikes make you just as hard as normal bike, and in some cases you end up working harder *even when going up a hill!!*


In the example in the video, that is because they chose an easy hill! I have seen enough ebikers on enough really hard hills (long, 20+%) to know that a motor can give a huge amount of help.


----------



## Nebulous (24 Oct 2020)

My wife has a cheapish Ebco front hub bike with a 320 wh battery. She has arthritis and couldn't do hills at all before we got the bike. Upper limit was about 36 miles. We did a ride around freezing one day and ran out at about 20 miles. I had to cycle back for the car and collect her. That left us with a real range anxiety, so we bought a spare 400wh battery. That is as much as we need, we've developed a slick method of changing the battery when needed and can manage 40-50 miles in any conditions with both of them. 

It has made a huge difference to her. Before she got the bike she could only do flat rides - canal footpaths, old railway lines etc. Now she'll try a hilly loop, and can hold on quite well on the hills. The 15.5 mph is a bit limiting. It would be helpful if that could be increased to 20.


----------



## Stul (25 Oct 2020)

..the problem with increasing the speed limit of the motor up to 20 mph is that it would hammer the battery even more so your range would be reduced...probably quite significantly....


----------



## Drago (26 Oct 2020)

ColinJ said:


> In the example in the video, that is because they chose an easy hill! I have seen enough ebikers on enough really hard hills (long, 20+%) to know that a motor can give a huge amount of help.


I'm 19 stone and a completely legal ebike makes a _biiggg_ difference on a good solid hill. A normal mortal some 5 or 6 stones lighter will haze zero problems if I don't.


----------



## ColinJ (26 Oct 2020)

Drago said:


> I'm 19 stone and a completely legal ebike makes a _biiggg_ difference on a good solid hill. A normal mortal some 5 or 6 stones lighter will haze zero problems if I don't.


I can't remember how fast the young woman said that she was going up the hill, but it was pretty much at the speed that the motor would be cutting out, in which case you just have a heavier bike! Only top pro-cyclists can go up 'proper' hills at 25 km/hr, and even then not on the steeper stuff.


----------



## RichardB (27 Oct 2020)

ColinJ said:


> I can't remember how fast the young woman said that she was going up the hill, but it was pretty much at the speed that the motor would be cutting out, in which case you just have a heavier bike! Only top pro-cyclists can go up 'proper' hills at 25 km/hr, and even then not on the steeper stuff.



Mine will do_ nowhere near_ its top speed up a hill (25 kph). I reckon that on hills where I can climb at 4-5 mph on a normal bike, the ebike will climb at 8-9 mph with the same effort from me. It's a big boost, obviously, but it's nothing like having a motor climbing all the hills for you.


----------



## ColinJ (27 Oct 2020)

RichardB said:


> Mine will do_ nowhere near_ its top speed up a hill (25 kph). I reckon that on hills where I can climb at 4-5 mph on a normal bike, the ebike will climb at 8-9 mph with the same effort from me. It's a big boost, obviously, but it's nothing like having a motor climbing all the hills for you.


That's what I was thinking... Having super-fit young riders hurtling up a modest climb is not a good test for an ebike. A much more realistic test would be to get a typical moderately fit middle-aged or elderly person riding more slowly up a steep climb!


----------



## theboxers (7 Nov 2020)

jowwy said:


> And they allow that size battery onboard the plane???


Sorry thought I had replied to this.

I flew Easyjet and my reading of the following web page

Easyjet Dangerous Goods

Came up with this

*Mobility aids* (e.g. wheelchairs)* powered by lithium ion batteries*, for use by passengers whose mobility is restricted by either a disability, their health or age, or a temporary mobility problem (e.g. broken leg).

*1.* Snip
*2.* Snip

*3.* Where the mobility aid is specifically designed to allow its battery(ies) to be removed by the user (e.g. collapsible):
a. The battery(ies) must be removed and carried in the passenger cabin;
b. The battery terminals must be protected from short circuit (by insulating the terminals, e.g. by taping over exposed terminals);
c. The battery must be protected from damage (e.g. by placing each battery in a protective pouch);
d. Removal of the battery from the mobility aid must be performed by following the instructions of the manufacturer or device owner;
*e. The battery must not exceed 300 Wh; and 
f. A maximum of one spare battery not exceeding 300 Wh or two spares not exceeding 160 Wh each may be carried.*

*4. *The pilot-in-command must be informed of the location of the lithium ion battery(ies);
*5.* It is recommended that passengers make advance arrangements with each operator.

I took this to mean I could carry my Fazua battery (252Wh) in the down tube cover in hand luggage without issue.



Drago said:


> All well and good, but if, as you say, you only use the motor on the hills then large portions of your mileage will be without the motor, which makes the quoted mileage a bit questionable.
> 
> If I only use the motor on the hills i can get 200+ miles out of mine, but in no way does that means it has 200+ miles of assisted range. That'd be like claiming your torch has this wonderful battery that lasts 10 years because you never use it.




My use case for the motor is Vertical gain not distance. I think I could get 1500m+ of gain (on anything over 6%). Which owing to my weight  is a best use for my electrical power.


----------



## jowwy (7 Nov 2020)

theboxers said:


> Sorry thought I had replied to this.
> 
> I flew Easyjet and my reading of the following web page
> 
> ...


That’s good, I forgot the fazua was a smaller battery


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (17 Nov 2020)

just an addition to the range discussion

Over the summer I started on a new route - about 20 miles total - sometimes more if I take the long way home
I could easily do the route twice with charge left over to spare

today I went out on half charge after having done the route (19 miles - must have cut a few corners???)

by the time I got near home the battery ran out of electric - on 20 miles

only differences where
a) temperature in ride - it was charged inside so 20 odd degrees C
b) it was left for a few days in between the 2 rides - normally I went out every day in the summer

I am assuming that the range will increase again when it warms up in spring

hope so - Bosch batteries are damn expensive


----------



## CXRAndy (19 Nov 2020)

Batteries aren't linear in their storage. Added to that, colder weather will run down faster. Time your charging to get to around 90% just before you leave and that will give you the best available range. The cells will be warm from charging and will hold some of the heat due to usage


----------



## RichardB (19 Nov 2020)

CXRAndy said:


> Batteries aren't linear in their storage.



Very true. My charger has two settings - 42V for a normal charge, and 37V for a periodic maintenance charge if the bike is out of use. I once mistakenly charged it at 37V before a journey to work. The commute was a 27-mile round trip, and normally I could easily do it on one charge with 2 out of 4 lights remaining at the end, i.e. half discharged approximately. From this, I would guesstimate a total range of about 50 miles, give or take. On this day, I made it as far as the final hill about a mile from home (a short 12%er) and it died. That was a range of about 26 miles - around half the total range, just by charging at about 12% lower voltage. Someone on the Pedelecs forum* exlained it in terms of the area under a graph or something similar which made sense at the time. But yes, batteries are not linear.

* recommended if you haven't been there

Edit: here's the Pedelecs post: https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/battery-39v-vs-42v.21153/post-265771


----------



## gzoom (20 Nov 2020)

I normally get 60 miles+ range out of my Fauza for the commute to work. Last few days, 20mph headwind all the way into work, means I'm seeing 30-40% battery usage in just 6 miles!!! Equating to a total range of sub 30 miles.

It appears just like my other EV, wind direction has a massive impact on range!!

But boy am I glad I have an eBike, on a normal bike I would have arrived into work sweating and smelling like the England first XV!!


----------

