# Nicole Cooke's retirement



## thom (14 Jan 2013)

What a rider she was ?! 
I loved her getting results back in the day when GB cycling was on the start of it's up.
Whatever the machinations and politics of being number 1 versus Lizzie Armitstead, she has set a fantastic marker for GB women road cyclists - a truely fantastic palmares.
I can't help feeling pretty sad that a 29 year old of this calibre is leaving the women's peloton.


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## smokeysmoo (14 Jan 2013)

""When Lance cries on Oprah later this week and she passes him the tissue, spare a thought for all those genuine people who walked away with no rewards - just shattered dreams. Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances".

Quality


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## tigger (14 Jan 2013)

Great rider. I'm still surprised that she is retiring at just 29.


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## black'n'yellow (14 Jan 2013)

thom said:


> I can't help feeling pretty sad that a 29 year old of this calibre is leaving the women's peloton.


 
Agreed - especially when you consider that Jeannie Longo was still winning races at 53. At 29 Nicole could potentially improve for another 10 years.

Hopefully she will take a couple of years out and then make a comeback...


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## Noodley (14 Jan 2013)

Good luck to her in whatever she does.

And just in case anyone thinks otherwise, Longo is a doper.


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## black'n'yellow (14 Jan 2013)

Noodley said:


> And just in case anyone thinks otherwise, Longo *is* a doper.


 
Allegedly. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. Unless you know different - in which case you had better tell the FFC...


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## BJH (14 Jan 2013)

I absolutely loved reading that link to her comments. Terrible shame that she is opting to retire but good on her for what she said, I do like people who come right off the fence loud and clear !


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## thom (14 Jan 2013)

Here's her statement on her website.
Wow - at 16 she won the Senior British Road Race Championship !
Well worth the read.


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## StuAff (14 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> Allegedly. Evidence and proof are not the same thing. Unless you know different - in which case you had better tell the FFC...


Well, her husband was arrested & charged with importing EPO....she missed three tests....
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11135/With-career-under-a-shadow-Longo-set-to-retire.aspx


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## black'n'yellow (14 Jan 2013)

StuAff said:


> Well, her husband was arrested & charged with importing EPO....she missed three tests....
> http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11135/With-career-under-a-shadow-Longo-set-to-retire.aspx


 
I know. That's evidence. But it ain't proof.


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## tigger (14 Jan 2013)

It's good evidence though innit?


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## black'n'yellow (14 Jan 2013)

tigger said:


> It's good evidence though innit?


 
Not good enough though, obviously.


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## shouldbeinbed (14 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> Not good enough though, obviously.


Give it a couple of years and Oprah will be calling her.

I'd like to see Cooke ride on but by the sound of her latest DS, she's not meeting their expectations, whether that is mental or physical is anyones guess, but her statement is pretty raw and doesn't sound like someone wanting to be in that world anymore.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Jan 2013)

tigger said:


> It's good evidence though innit?


Good enough for me! As supporting evidence, there's her defence of Armstrong (''leave us our dreams, leave us our greats'') and her counter-accusation that the French Federation had done all it could to make her lose the French championships and Olympic games by stopping her drug-dealing, husband-trainer from accompanying her at races. http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Longo-regrette-l-acharnement/322038.


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## thom (14 Jan 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Good enough for me! As supporting evidence, there's her defence of Armstrong (''leave us our dreams, leave us our greats'') and her counter-accusation that the French Federation had done all it could to make her lose the French championships and Olympic games by stopping her drug-dealing, husband-trainer from accompanying her at races. http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Longo-regrette-l-acharnement/322038.


Are you sure people are using drugs in cycling ? I thought it was normal in the cycling world for the over 50's to win the top competitions.


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## black'n'yellow (14 Jan 2013)

deptfordmarmoset said:


> Good enough for me!


 
But not good enough for the French legal system.


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## fozy tornip (14 Jan 2013)

I've huge respect for Nicole Cooke. Not just the UK's most successful ever road racing cyclist but a persuasive, informed, articulate voice for cycling as a personal transport alternative.
Comparing the feteing and celebrating and decorating of Wiggo with her own invisibility rather makes her point. Hope she finds some future role in cycling.


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## deptfordmarmoset (14 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> But not good enough for the French legal system.


True, but I think she got off on a technicality, namely that the FFC didn't observe the correct way of notifying her about her ''whereabouts'' obligations. 

Anyhow, sorry for going off topic. This should be Nicole's thread not Longgone's. I hope she finds a future role in cycling.


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## StuAff (14 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> But not good enough for the French legal system.


Case against the husband is ongoing, so that remains to be seen.


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## festival (14 Jan 2013)

I admire Cooke's career, she was a real champion and her win in the worlds was one of the best finishes I have seen in any race.
Her lengthy retirement statement was interesting to read and I got the impression she had plenty to get of her chest but what a shame she failed to name who was in the camper van.


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## raindog (15 Jan 2013)

Nicole on 5live - worth a listen
scroll across to 1hour 55minutes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01pw3p6
sad to see her go


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## rich p (15 Jan 2013)

She was a class act, a trendsetter and ploughed a lonely and unfashionable furrow for years without the massive BC support that some of them get nowadays.


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## PaulB (15 Jan 2013)

thom said:


> What a rider she was ?!
> I loved her getting results back in the day when GB cycling was on the start of it's up.
> Whatever the machinations and politics of being number 1 versus Lizzie Armitstead, she has set a fantastic marker for GB women road cyclists - a truely fantastic palmares.
> I can't help feeling pretty sad that a 29 year old of this calibre is leaving the women's peloton.


That's a brilliant piece by the great rider. I particularly liked her opinion on Tyler Hamilton which pretty much matches my own; why should he make massive amounts of money just by owning up to cheating? As used to be said of Richard Nixon 'Don't buy books by crooks.'


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## johnr (15 Jan 2013)

And a great inspiration to girls in sport: she was the first sportsperson my granddaughters knew the name of when they were tiny. Always a battler, she must have got thousands of girls and young women out on bikes. A very proud legacy which will be talked of for years.

Adieu and thank you, Nicole.


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## just jim (15 Jan 2013)

That was a powerful and compulsive interview, and she is right on target. Good luck for the future I say.


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## johnr (15 Jan 2013)

If there's a coup at the UCI she'd be a great person to head up women's cycling. I imagine though she's irritated too many blazer-boys at British Cycling over the years to get their backing.


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## oldroadman (15 Jan 2013)

johnr said:


> If there's a coup at the UCI she'd be a great person to head up women's cycling. I imagine though she's irritated too many blazer-boys at British Cycling over the years to get their backing.


Gret rider who is maybe not quite the super one of a year or two back, but still a danger in any race. Has been in a lot of teams, and some of the management/financials have been shocking (like certain men's teams!!), but no discussion on her attitude to "preparation", absolutely spot on there.
It may be a pity to go so early, but after 17 years of racing, probably that's mentally enough.
As for politics, that is another ball game altogether, but I'll say one thing, I know a few people at BC, and it's insulting to use the term "blazers" as a collective, there are good people there who are doing a decent and often unappreciated job. If you have a memory try and think back to where GB were in the mid 90's compared to today. Riders, coaches, officials, workers and the much maligned "blazers" shifted a disaster into what we have today.


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## tigger (15 Jan 2013)

johnr said:


> If there's a coup at the UCI she'd be a great person to head up women's cycling. I imagine though she's irritated too many blazer-boys at British Cycling over the years to get their backing.


 
Reading her website retirement page and seeing the Sky News interview, she didn't sound overly negative about BC to me, but rather pointed out how the structure and competition wasn't there for her at the beginning as a youth. In a couple of instances it seems BC reacted very swifty to the lobbying from her father and put races and procedures in place for Junior Women the following year.


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## screenman (15 Jan 2013)

fozy tornip said:


> I've huge respect for Nicole Cooke. Not just the UK's most successful ever road racing cyclist but a persuasive, informed, articulate voice for cycling as a personal transport alternative.
> Comparing the feteing and celebrating and decorating of Wiggo with her own invisibility rather makes her point. Hope she finds some future role in cycling.


 
Where does Beryl stand in your list?


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## Flying_Monkey (15 Jan 2013)

Nicole Cooke would make a great BC rep at the UCI - she'd really bust things up a bit where there really still is a predominance of 'blazers', the same way she used to bust up races at her best. Head down, charge and damn the consequences... I always loved watching Cooke even if tactically sometimes she just made you wince. A fantastic talent.


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## thom (15 Jan 2013)

*Nicole Cooke one of cycling's best of all time, says Shane Sutton*


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## festival (15 Jan 2013)

All credit to Cooke for her career and the statement is powerful. but IMO her argument is a little weak, in her own words she looked the other way,like all the rest when the dark side of the sport showed its face.
I tried to hint at this in my earlier post but nobody reacted, If she feels that strongly about it why not name names?


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## e-rider (15 Jan 2013)

tigger said:


> Great rider. I'm still surprised that she is retiring at just 29.


she hasn't won much recently, and for a rider that is used to winning everything, that is probably hard to deal with. As others have said she could have another 8 years.


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## resal (15 Jan 2013)

Absolutely superb statement. A fine read. I particularly liked a couple of journo's twitters - I've been to a fair few retirement press conference but that was the best one ever ! Yes - Nicole finishes where she started - on the attack. Where's that "how to move women's cycling forward" thread. I think we have the answer and we have the person who would move it on. BC rep at the UCI - Nicole Cooke.

Regarding another 8 years. Have any of you had to face redundancy or major dispute at work.? 4 times taking your teams to court ! About 4 times more than anyone should have to face in a lifetime. That is very wearing. No wonder she seemed off colour this last year.


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## black'n'yellow (15 Jan 2013)

resal said:


> Regarding another 8 years. Have any of you had to face redundancy or major dispute at work.? 4 times taking your teams to court ! About 4 times more than anyone should have to face in a lifetime. That is very wearing. No wonder she seemed off colour this last year.


 
Nobody said she should make a comeback as a pro. But I would expect to see her in Ajax colours mixing it up at Llandow sooner or later...


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## deptfordmarmoset (15 Jan 2013)

festival said:


> All credit to Cooke for her career and the statement is powerful. but IMO her argument is a little weak, in her own words she looked the other way,like all the rest when the dark side of the sport showed its face.
> I tried to hint at this in my earlier post but nobody reacted, If she feels that strongly about it why not name names?


To be fair, in one of the 5 Live interviews, she was asked about whether she would be prepared to name names. Her response was that her retirement day was not the time to be doing so but that she would be happy to in an enquiry. 

Shane Sutton's piece looks like a very strong job recommendation to me.


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## rich p (15 Jan 2013)

Naming names is tricky in this litigious age without back up of evidence. One of the reasons it took so long to nail that bastard Armstrong.


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## Flying_Monkey (15 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> Nobody said she should make a comeback as a pro. But I would expect to see her in Ajax colours mixing it up at Llandow sooner or later...


 
Hasn't she just said she's retiring from road cycling too? Maybe she'll go back to XC?


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## black'n'yellow (15 Jan 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Hasn't she just said she's retiring from road cycling too? Maybe she'll go back to XC?


 
Didn't see that, so I don't know. She'll be back though...


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## User169 (16 Jan 2013)

Not sure Armistead is doing herself any favours if her comments are reported correctly here..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/21036935


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## 400bhp (16 Jan 2013)

Delftse Post said:


> Not sure Armistead is doing herself any favours if her comments are reported correctly here..
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/21036935


 
:bangs head: really really disappointed with her.

They [many pro cyclists] just don't get it.


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## johnr (16 Jan 2013)

400bhp said:


> :bangs head: really really disappointed with her.
> 
> They [many pro cyclists] just don't get it.


 +1


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## Flying_Monkey (16 Jan 2013)

+2 - disappointing to hear this from Amistead. Just goes to show the difference between two fine cyclists, one of whom is prepared to speak out regardless of the consequences and one who would prefer to keep her head down and keep omerta. That former attitude on Cooke's part is perhaps what lost her a lot of friends in the sport and meant that she was never seen as a 'team-player' so she never really got the support of a dedicated team that her talent deserved. But it makes me admire her much more as a person.


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## resal (16 Jan 2013)

+3. Endorsing all of Flying Monkey's comments. There just isn't anything to like in that statement.


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## black'n'yellow (16 Jan 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> Just goes to show the difference between two fine cyclists, one of whom is prepared to speak out regardless of the consequences


 
What consequences? She's retiring. The other is still employed.


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## tigger (16 Jan 2013)

That's naive of Amitstead and also a throwback to the tensions between her and Cooke I think. Lacks a bit of maturity perhaps too? 

But perhaps, perhaps, things really have changed since Cooke started and Armitstead hasn't experienced these problems first hand. Perhaps as a young rider in the present she has a right to be defensive of past problems which may be genuinely anathema to her?


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## laurence (16 Jan 2013)

tigger said:


> That's naive of Amitstead and also a throwback to the tensions between her and Cooke I think. Lacks a bit of maturity perhaps too?
> 
> But perhaps, perhaps, things really have changed since Cooke started and Armitstead hasn't experienced these problems first hand. Perhaps as a young rider in the present she has a right to be defensive of past problems which may be genuinely anathema to her?


 
let's not forget that the press want a story... and all of them want the same one and ask the same questions... so a rider will have to answer that same question over and over... they want to talk about themselves and share their glory, not recycle the Armstrong myth time and time again. Cavendish gets grumpy with journos at the OPQS launch, Brad gets stroppy when constantly questioned on if he is clean. then the press go to town and sensationalise it.

rather than looking for a new story the press are flogging this one. it's tired journalism really.

TBH, Cooke stirred things up, as she always has done. she threw the live grenade in the room and walked away.

as much as i admired Cooke for her riding i also thought she was her own worse enemy. Given her or Judith Arndt to cheer, i'd go for Arndt, Nicole always rode for herself, even when she wasn't in a position to win. i found that attitude to be a bit offputting and could never warm to her.

Lizzie is entitled to her opinion. i didn't see anything terrible in the quotes, just a weariness of having to defend someone else. It's easy for Cooke to say those things as she's leaving.


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## resal (16 Jan 2013)

Laurence I have no idea how many times you have seen Cooke on the continent or with her teams, but I have spoken to her team mates and your assertion is totally unfounded. Particularly I remember Diana Zilute praising Cooke's unstinting efforts on her behalf and praising Nicole for setting her up for the win. At Raleigh I remember her setting up Priska Doppman on a couple of occasions. I did not speak to any of the riders that day but the lead out was obvious.

I recall that there has only ever been a single individual who has complained about Cooke riding for herself and talking about the press stirring things up, shoddy journalism by Cycling Weekly were blamed by the young lady concerned, for taking some off hand comments and blowing them up into a major story. Lizzi herself backtracked from those statements fairly rapidly but then found herself in a hole and then went forward again. It all looked very unseemly. I would have thought she might have learned from that experience that nothing is "off the record".


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## oldroadman (16 Jan 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> +2 - disappointing to hear this from Amistead. Just goes to show the difference between two fine cyclists, *one of whom is prepared to speak out regardless of the consequences and one who would prefer to keep her head down and keep omerta*. That former attitude on Cooke's part is perhaps what lost her a lot of friends in the sport and meant that she was never seen as a 'team-player' so she never really got the support of a dedicated team that her talent deserved. But it makes me admire her much more as a person.


 
Considering what was said in the retirement statement, first pro team and "medecine" in the house, why not speak out then - hardly fair to accuse Lizzie of "keeping the omerta" when Nicole says nothing until there is nothing to lose.
Things have changed and still are, cycling is a strange sport which is prepared to admit the past, clean up, and do it all in public. Hardly surprising that gets a few comments. Shame one or two other sports don't get the Kimmage treatment, he has interviewed plenty of top performers from other sports, and never a question about PEDs, which makes me wonder whether there still is a residual grudge with cycling.
I can't see Nicole getting along in the political scene, where a steady evolution seems to be the way things get done. Bull at a gate tactics usually get exactly what they might expect, closed doors, lack of credibility, and lost opportunities. As has been quoted before "politics is the art of the possible". Idealism is well and good, but reality is that sustainable progress is a steady process.


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## fozy tornip (16 Jan 2013)

screenman said:


> Where does Beryl stand in your list?


Undoubtedly a great talent. Loved her in The Killing of Sister George. Gave the definitive Connie Sachs in the 1979 Tinker, Tailor.. Tough act for Kathy Burke to follow: too tough.


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## resal (17 Jan 2013)

Lizzi on twitter - Last updated Wed 16 Jan 2013

UK
Lizzie Armitstead
Lance Armstrong
 
Probably shouldn't give the bullies the time of day but my opinion in my own words: what LA has done to the sport of cycling is unforgivable
From @L_ArmiTstead on Twitter: (about 2 hours ago)
Olympic medallist Lizzie Armitstead has slammed disgraced Tour De France winner Lance Armstrong on Twitter. She took to the social media site to brand his actions 'unforgivable'. Armstong was stripped of his seven Tour De France titles last year after being plagued by allegations of doping.
The Otley olympian anticipated negativity from supporters of Armstrong on the notoriously rowdy website and added: "I am happy the truth has come out for the good of cycling. I am not naive,* cycling is not 100% clean* but which sport is?
I am a part of a new generation of cyclists who compete honestly and quite rightly feel upset and disappointed that it is suddenly an expectation of me to be a politician. Cycling is a beautiful sport which I love... and * believe in everyone's right to an opinion"*_

Well there was me saying that Lizzi went one way, reversed and then went slow ahead forward again on her last little episode and now we have this ! Comedy gold ! Doesn't need more comment. Says it all by itself.

Oldroadman - Where did you get that one from ? At the end of the first season she has no wages because she did not take drugs and takes the team to court? A person who is easily capable of forcing change is in a tight spot and keeps quiet about the drugs! I can only find on record that a single BC rider had a bust up with BC management about Dave Millar being allowed to ride for GB. One voice against, the rest who are all yes monkeys. Your scenario is not likely. My take on that was that there was a lot more left unsaid than said in that statement. And as to not getting things done, it looks like she got quite a bit done and was very complimentary to BC about getting them to move on things she wanted moving. 

Talking of politicians. has Cookson made any response about how he can justify a minimum wage for blokes and not for women ? I have only seen that one pretty poor statement. (I see WADA and USADA have not endorsed his whitewash of Pat and Hein.)

And off topic a bit more - what did Millar do in Salzburg on his return? His behaviour on the final bend should have had him banned from ever riding in a GB rest again._


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## ufkacbln (17 Jan 2013)

rich p said:


> She was a class act, a trendsetter and ploughed a lonely and unfashionable furrow for years without the massive BC support that some of them get nowadays.


 

OMG -We agree!

From a historical point, one must wonder how much better she could have been with the same level of support and training as the present riders in "Team GB" have been given.



Shame the thread is again being diverted by the Armstrong obsession and unproven allegations again.


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## Flying_Monkey (18 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> unproven allegations


 
"You're not singing, you're not singing, you're not singing anymore..." Seriously, give it up. It's over.


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## thom (18 Jan 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> "You're not singing, you're not singing, you're not singing anymore..." Seriously, give it up. It's over.


Unfortunately nothing deters the wannabe gadflies of this forum.


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## ufkacbln (18 Jan 2013)

I look forward to substantiated proof as opposed to speculation that Longo is doping.


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## rich p (18 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> I look forward to substantiated proof as opposed to speculation that Longo is doping.


We were proved right about Armstrong so our track record is good. Whereas you...
...oh, never mind


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## ufkacbln (18 Jan 2013)

Whereas what?

You have been challenged to prove your misinterpretation previously and predictably ran and hid behind the cover of an ignore list...... and failed to prove your lies.


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Jan 2013)

I'm prepared to believe she's not doping. Now.


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## tigger (18 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> I look forward to substantiated proof as opposed to speculation that Longo is doping.



So come on, stick your cock on the block. Do you think she doped? It's a yes or no answer (like the beginning of the Lance interview)


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## StuAff (18 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> I look forward to substantiated proof as opposed to speculation that Longo is doping.


So, if her husband is convicted, would you believe it then?


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## ufkacbln (18 Jan 2013)

Note the word substantiated............. if her husband is convicted of supplying her with drugs than that would be substantiated evidence


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## deptfordmarmoset (18 Jan 2013)

Ok, put your unsubstantiated cock on the block, then.


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## black'n'yellow (18 Jan 2013)

Speaking as the bloke that started the Longo argument here.....for what it's worth, I think the balance of probability is that she was systematically doping for some years. But is it right to categorically call her a 'doper' today?? Technically, no. Which is why I reserve judgement on her, thus avoiding the 'lynch mob' mentality which seems popular here.

In that sense, I can see where cunobelin is coming from....probably...


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## Crackle (18 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> Speaking as the bloke that started the Longo argument here.....for what it's worth, I think the balance of probability is that she was systematically doping for some years. But is it right to categorically call her a 'doper' today?? Technically, no. Which is why I reserve judgement on her, thus avoiding the 'lynch mob' mentality which seems popular here.
> 
> In that sense, I can see where cunobelin is coming from....probably...


Popular here? Try The Clinic on Cyclingnews. We're positively liberals.


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## black'n'yellow (18 Jan 2013)

Crackle said:


> Popular here? Try The Clinic on Cyclingnews. We're positively liberals.


 
Future Publishing? - no thanks.


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## Crackle (18 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> Future Publishing? - no thanks.


Ah, you're a refugee from Future. That's how this forum took off.


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## rich p (18 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Whereas what?
> 
> You have been challenged to prove your misinterpretation previously and predictably ran and hid behind the cover of an ignore list...... and failed to prove your lies.


As usual I don't understand what you're blathering about but not to worry.


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## rich p (18 Jan 2013)

black'n'yellow said:


> Future Publishing? - no thanks.


Cyclingnews is Future Publishing?


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## Crackle (18 Jan 2013)

rich p said:


> Cyclingnews is Future Publishing?


It is. Scroll to bottom of page.


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## Crackle (18 Jan 2013)

Not this page


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## rich p (18 Jan 2013)

Crackle said:


> Not this page


Well, I'm damned.


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## ufkacbln (18 Jan 2013)

rich p said:


> As usual I don't understand what you're blathering about but not to worry.


 
Your usual avoidance?

It is really amazing how when you are asked to prove anything you feign being unable to understand

Rather sad really, but not unexpected....easier than actually facing up to reality?


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## Flying_Monkey (19 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Your usual avoidance?
> 
> It is really amazing how when you are asked to prove anything you feign being unable to understand
> 
> Rather sad really, but not unexpected....easier than actually facing up to reality?


 
You are ridiculous. Do stop it.

And the only reason why Longo hasn't been subjected to a proper investigation a la Armstrong is that no-one is any position of influence in either the UCI or WADA gives a monkeys about women's cycling. The same generalized sexism that keeps women's cycling in a secondary position ironically also allows someone like Longo to get away with quite clearly implausible feats - because the men in charge really don't care.


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## rich p (19 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Your usual avoidance?
> 
> It is really amazing how when you are asked to prove anything you feign being unable to understand
> 
> Rather sad really, but not unexpected....easier than actually facing up to reality?


Still obsessed with me and some historic posts! Flattering, as I said, but strangely worrying


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## ufkacbln (19 Jan 2013)

Simply a case of having standards.

Yours are evidently low


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## ufkacbln (19 Jan 2013)

Flying_Monkey said:


> You are ridiculous. Do stop it.
> 
> And the only reason why Longo hasn't been subjected to a proper investigation a la Armstrong is that no-one is any position of influence in either the UCI or WADA gives a monkeys about women's cycling. The same generalized sexism that keeps women's cycling in a secondary position ironically also allows someone like Longo to get away with quite clearly implausible feats - because the men in charge really don't care.


 
Translated as a "No" than?

The problem with that post Armstrong era is that accusations are being made without any substantiated evidence, merely by rumour, implication and suggestion. "No smoke without fire"



They may be true, they may not......... however what is needed is proof to take the case up formally


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## rich p (19 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Simply a case of having standards.
> 
> Yours are evidently low


Yet another typically constructive ad hominem


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## ufkacbln (19 Jan 2013)

rich p said:


> Yet another typically constructive ad hominem


Yep - I can sink to your standards.


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## rich p (19 Jan 2013)

Cunobellin, your stalking of me and constant harking back to some perceived slight is yet again derailing and spoiling another thread.
Can you, if not for my sake, for everyone else's, refrain from constant carping, personal criticism and stick to the topic with clear and concise points which can be debated in an adult way.


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## PaulB (19 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> Yep - I can sink to your standards.


 
This is why you were EXACTLY wrong in your assertions the other day that reckoned on the one hand we should be adult and not place anyone on ignore yet on the other hand to go and snitch to miss about Billy Stinky-bum. When you go on and on (and on and on and on and on) ad-infinitum to try and score precious points, it descends into a game of gobshite tennis. 

And this is my tuppenyworth and the last thing I'm saying on this particular issue in this particular thread.


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## ufkacbln (19 Jan 2013)

rich p said:


> Cunobellin, your stalking of me and constant harking back to some perceived slight is yet again derailing and spoiling another thread.
> Can you, if not for my sake, for everyone else's, refrain from constant carping, personal criticism and stick to the topic with clear and concise points which can be debated in an adult way.




You haven't really read this then?


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## rich p (19 Jan 2013)

rich p said:


> Cunobellin, your stalking of me and constant harking back to some perceived slight is yet again derailing and spoiling another thread.
> Can you, if not for my sake, for everyone else's, refrain from constant carping, personal criticism and stick to the topic with clear and concise points which can be debated in an adult way.





Cunobelin said:


> You haven't really read this then?


 
I take it that's a no, then?


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## ufkacbln (19 Jan 2013)

You really are not reading this thread are you?


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## rich p (19 Jan 2013)

Still no?


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## GrumpyGregry (19 Jan 2013)

iirc in the early 00's no one thought to query the performances of Genevieve Jeanson as she time trialled off the front of every race. Doper.

If someone's performance is too good to be true then it is to good to be clean.

There is no substantiated scientific proof Armstrong doped. We all know by his own admission that he did.

I don't need substantiated proof re Longo, merely the evidence of her extra-ordinary performances. To believe she was clean requires a total and utter suspension of my critical faculties to such a degree that even a current Armstrong fanboy might blush.

(In 2011 Tyler Hamilton was stripped of his Mount Washington record. At the same time, having admitted to having doped more or less throughout her career, so was Genevieve Jeanson. Guess who became the holder as a result? Jeannie Longo!)


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## dellzeqq (19 Jan 2013)

Cunobelin said:


> You haven't really read this then?


ffs. Ignore list time


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## LinchPin (19 Jan 2013)

Is there some sexual tension between "rich p" and "Cunobelin" or have I been watching too much "Take me out"?


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## raindog (19 Jan 2013)

GregCollins said:


> I don't need substantiated proof re Longo, merely the evidence of her extra-ordinary performances. To believe she was clean requires a total and utter suspension of my critical faculties to such a degree that even a current Armstrong fanboy might blush.


Mind you, going on that principle, maybe the extraordinary Beryl Burton was doping too.


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## lukesdad (19 Jan 2013)

raindog said:


> Mind you, going on that principle, maybe the extraordinary Beryl Burton was doping too.


 Nah you're allowed to pick and choose


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## deptfordmarmoset (19 Jan 2013)

raindog said:


> Mind you, going on that principle, maybe the extraordinary Beryl Burton was doping too.


Yes, the same thought had occurred to me too, but I was thinking about Kimmage's suspicions about Wiggins.

Though the case against Longo is circumstantial, there is no hard proof and she even got off after missing 3 whereabouts tests on a technicality. But given the longevity of her career, and the minor fact that her inseparable husband-trainer has admitted buying EPO, plus a couple of testimonies, I'm quite certain that she doped over many years.


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## lukesdad (19 Jan 2013)

Its these foreign Johnnies you've got to watch, you know the ones that don't play cricket ! No sense of fair play


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## dellzeqq (19 Jan 2013)

lukesdad said:


> Its these foreign Johnnies you've got to watch, you know the ones that don't play cricket ! No sense of fair play


there's something in that. Like 'cheating foreign footballers' in the Premiership. Or Australians sledging. Being British (and wearing a bowler hat) didn't keep Simpson on the straight and narrow.


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Jan 2013)

raindog said:


> Mind you, going on that principle, maybe the extraordinary Beryl Burton was doping too.


How many times did Charile get nicked then?


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## GrumpyGregry (20 Jan 2013)

2265363 said:


> Ask an Aussie about bodyline and British fair play.


Bodyline. Natural step in win-at-all-costs professional sports competition. Which rather misses the point of sport I'd say.


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## screenman (24 Jan 2013)

Just read the statement and must say I feel proud that my daughter in law got a nice mention.


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