# sore knees



## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Are there any muscles inside your knee that can be fittened up like my thigh and calf muscles?

I am only using gears 1-7 on the small ring and everytime I try to go up to the middle ring, where it is harder to push, I get sore knees.

I have moved the seat up and forward, and it is not discomfort from the angle I dont think.

I have some loose cartilage and osteoarthritis in them both, and was wondering if this was being irritated, or if I continue and push through it, I could get my knees fitter. They grind on the inside when walking and going up stairs if I have been trying the middle ring again.

Can you get your knees fitter, or is this my limit? Been riding nearly 3 months, same distance and route everyday.


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## Keith Oates (16 Sep 2008)

I can't answer your question directly as I'm not a Doctor or medical person but I would think it's best if you consult a qualified sports Doctor or similar to get useful information. I hope that if you do that you will learn how to overcome the problem!!!!!!


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## Andy in Sig (16 Sep 2008)

I would think now that you have got yourself established as a cyclist i.e. you're body is used to doing your distance and your fitness levels have reached a new level, that maybe now is the proper time to go to a genuine specialist sports doctor or sports physio and get your riding position, physiological performance etc. properly assessed. It would be terrible if you would give yourself a chronic injury simply for want of modifying or improving something which you do.

I would have thought that your doctor would be happy to back such a move as the whole thing is geared to improving and maintaining your overall condition.

Did you take a look at suspension seat posts by the way?


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Andy - not bothered with a suspension seat post, I stand over the bumpy road bits, and when my gluteals start to cramp I use the downhills to stand and have a good stretch. I still cant pedal standing though, due to much needed ACL surgery, which I am avoiding, my knee wobbles and threatens to dislocate if I try pedalling, so I am leaving that out, and just sit to pedal again. Hinged brace rubs and is too uncomfortable and I stopped using that after the first week of cyclling. Just make sure I always stand on right leg for stopping and starting.

My original question, I think you have answered by saying get a "vet check". I still dont know if you can get your knees fitter though. How will the doc know if I am at my physical peak / capability? I am sure I have a long way to go if I am still only doing a short ride, although trying harder gears and getting there and back faster seems to me a way to keep improving. 

Everything I have read on hear makes me think I am a whimp for only staying on the small ring, and only doing 8mph. Surely that cant be the limit of my fitness!!!!


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## Globalti (16 Sep 2008)

Well, no.... but you could make the bike roll faster by judicious use of the gears while not stressing those knees. The secret is always keep in an easy gear and spin fairly fast, I believe you should be aiming at a cadence of around 80 full revolutions a minute. This means you won't be grinding and putting stress on your knees. 

Is your seat at the right height and angle? There's lots on the web about this.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Seat is definately correct now after much messing around! I think? My neighbour moved it forward and higher a few times, then I put it down a little as it was too difficult to get on. 

I was thinking of trying drop handle bars as I bend down on the steep hills and push hard, and it is easier on my back being rounded. I seem to have much more power this way. Will I need to build up arm muscles? When I lean forward, it is like riding the pony, I feel much more in balance and closer to the bike. Maybe I should ask my neighbour to try a set first.

My 21yr old daughter just moved out last week and left me her recumbant, household cycle. Could I build up fitness on this instead of having all these hills around me. 

I am sure I could go much further on the flat. (Sheffield hills). I just have to *get* to the flat which involves too many hills. Sold the car, so no help there.

What can I do on the recumbant? I seem to go for ages on there. Half an hour is nothing. Outside on the real bike I am taking 8-12 minutes to go one mile. *Are there any muscles in your knees?*


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## Globalti (16 Sep 2008)

I'm concerned to read that you lowered the seat. The correct height is when your bare heel just contacts the pedal at the bottom of its stroke with the leg relaxed, i.e. not stretched. If this means it's hard to get on the saddle, so be it; you are better off learning to mount the bike than riding around with the saddle too low, which will damage your knees.

Have you considered going into a bike shop (not Halfrauds) and asking for their advice?


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

I'm no expert but I speak as someone who has what in comparison is fairly minor trouble with knees.

As I understand it, there are no muscles in kness but there are tendons and cartilage. Put in laymans terms, stengthening the muscles around the knees will stretch the tendons and help stabilise the knee. 

For me, cycling is very good for this and cycling causes me few problems, whereas with something like football I have to be careful when kicking the ball. I still get knee pain and stiffness and for cycling I find it essential that I spin rather than grind. A cadence of 70 and above, ideally 80 or 90 puts far less strain on the knees.

I'd echo the advice above about seeing a specialist. They may well be able to give you leg excercises to develop muscles around the knee which will stabilise it more. I'd also read a lot more about positioning. It may be the recommended ideal is not something your knees can manage. I always found seat height, even minor adjustments, makes the most profound difference to my knee comfort.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Thanks everyone. I will take out my knee strengthening exercises I got from the physio for the ACL op. It was to strenghthen the muscles around the knees which becomes a natural stabiliser to avoid the ACL op. The exercises didnt work, as I had muscle wastage on my whole body and couldnt do the excercises very well anyway. 

I dont dare put the seat up any more as I can only stand on my right leg for getting on and off, and because of broken vertebrae and ruptured discs I cant swing my leg behind to get on. I use a mounting block to get on the pony who is less than 5 foot and put my leg over his head and slide down to get off! So you can see that mounting a bike gives me the same problems. I lean it away from me and put my foot through the middle then use the bad leg to push off with as I have to stand on the good one, and hop onto the seat once moving. Complicated, but works.

I will check the candence when I have someone with me that can either count or watch the clock, I cant do both.

The easier gears are great, but I just feel that I *should* be going up the gears. With most things in life I go further, faster, more strain etc, so that when you have to do what you need it is easier. Like riding 100 miles when you are practicing for 50. Then the 50 would be a breeze. Is my logic wrong for cycling?

Maybe it is just my obsession with trying to get better, and therefore overdoing things in my race against time. Of course there is no time limit or anything else pressurising me really, I just want to be able to do what everyone else does.

It would be much easier if I just stayed on the small ring and forgot about improving, but my head cant do that, although I have doubts about the body being able to do it as well. lol


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

PS. Would the NHS only send me to the normal physio, how can I get them to send me to a Sports Physio, or how much are they to pay private?


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

I just read some of your other posts: Deep respect for having the courage to do this in the face of so many physical troubles.

If I read it right you're making progress already. Which ring you're on doesn't really matter. There's a lot of overlap in cycling gears. So just by going on to the middle ring does not mean you are using a higher gear. Instead measure your progress by your time and by your stops and discomfort, I wouldn't worry about which gears. 

Under your circumstances I would concentrate much more on cadence and maybe buy a computer which has cadence on it. You then match your gears to your cadence. This will make you more effecient than just trying to mash gears around. If you want a rough idea now, count how many times your left knee comes up in the space of 15 seconds and multiply the result by 4.

There's a physio place near me, who you can see privately. They have people there who specialise in different areas of the body and in different techniques, including stuff like acupuncture. I think it's about £25/30 per session and I would try to get your doctor to refer you to one. Explaining first what you are trying to achieve out of it and why, in order to get referred to the right physio specialist.

Good luck and keep it up.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

I will concentrate on candence, I have a computer built into the front light, which I bought at Lidll special last month. It doesnt have candence, but has a stop watch. I dont think you can set it to stop after 15 seconds though. I will try putting an alarm on my mobile if you can do seconds, otherwise I will have to count a whole minute.

I find I get out of breath quicker when pedalling faster, so I could concentrate on that side of my fitness and forget about the muscles in the legs. I also have a heart rate monitor which I havent used for about a month, so I should have a look on that and see if I have improved there. I may be getting fitter on the inside, but just not seeing any improvement on the outside (muscle and knee ache).

Another problem of pedalling faster and going down hill, my feet keep flying off the pedals. I know the answer to that is those clips on your shoes and pedals, but I am worried about getting out of them quick enough to land on my good leg. If I land on the other one, I wont be walking for 3months never mind cycling, could put me back a year.

Can you get straps, like the recumbant one has, that would be easier to get out of?


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## Andy in Sig (16 Sep 2008)

If you're using all 1-7 gears in combination with the small ring, you are definitely doing neither yourself nor the chain any favours due to the loss of efficiency and wear on the chain when it is running almost diagonally from back to front. As a rule the smallest ring at the front should be used with the biggest 3-4 at the back, the middle ring with the middle 4 and the Big ring at the front with the smallest 3-4 at the back. This exploits gear overlap.

I still think you could do with one overall reference book to read during the long winter evenings which covers all aspects of the bike and cycling. My recommendation is Bicycle Technology by Rob van den Plas, although I'm sure other people would favour other books.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

PS. Will try cycling for 15 seconds one handed, cant do that yet, can only do a quick look at watch at the moment. That should keep me amused for a while!!!!


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Andy - I find that 1-4 on the middle ring is OK for the flat but change back to small ring and 2 or 3 at the back for the hills.

It is too hard to push off on the middle ring, if I am already going it is ok and it is less revolutions for the legs and not a strain. Should I be starting on the small ring and then changing to middle or should I learn to start with the middle ring?

Will definately get a book for winter as I want to learn more about maintenance as I am single (no men about to do it for me), like doing it myself anyway in case I have to sort out a problem away from home. There are lots of courses to go on in the south but none in the north.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Andy - are there any good online sites about general stuff not only maintenance.


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## jasper (16 Sep 2008)

As said before, don't be concerned about gears...use cadence as your guide. No matter what terrain, spin between 80-95 RPM, even uphill. Use your gears accordingly to maintain the revolutions. After a while you won't need to count, you will be able to judge the cadence. As a rule of thumb, if you are grinding the gears, change down as grinding will do your knees no favours.


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## Andy in Sig (16 Sep 2008)

Start off on the ring which feels comfortable i.e. your legs are like a car engine and you wouldn't start that in fourth gear, would you? Use gear combinations according to the same principle and I would suggest that in general terms it might be an idea on two consecutive days to stick to gentle gearing for each bit and on the third day go up by one in each situation, thus continuing your improvement and then the two easier days will allow for recovery and build up.

The Sheldon Brown website is regarded as the doyen of cycling websites. Just google that name. I'm a firm believer in having a book as, unlike a website, you can have it by you while you're fiddling with the bike. The one I recommended certainly boosted my fiddling confidence when I took up cycling and is still my first port of call for info.


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

I would suggest mini toe-clips like these. They stop your foot slipping off but are very easy to get in and out of. My wife uses similiar.

What Andy says is absolutely correct and a true understanding of gears does become necessary at some point, I was just thinking this might not be quite the right moment to worry about it, unless you've got chain rub going on.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Crackle - these look just like the ones for stirrups on a horse, but in that case they stop your foot going through the stirrup and getting stuck. they are similar to the ones on the recumbent bike, I think they will work well for stopping my foot going up or out and yes they are easy to get out of on a horse anyway. Down the shop on Saturday.

Checked the mobile, bike computer and HRM and cant set any of them for 15 seconds. Even if I set it for a minute, I have to exit my alarm setting function bang on time for a whole minute. Impossible. Will just get hold of one of the kids on the street later today and give the watch to them to shout "15", hope I am not too far away to hear.

Spent a lot of time on Sydney Sheldon when I first got the bike, may be time to go back there now and see what else I can find. BicycleTutor is my favourit for fixing things. I download and can then start and stop as many times as I want whilst doing something.

Thanks guys, will report back the candence thing later or tomorrow. Is there any way to divide the mile by the time and get a candence? Would only give average though not flat and hills seperately.


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## purplemoon (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> ... *I lean it away from me* and put my foot through the middle then use the bad leg to push off with as I have to stand on the good one, and hop onto the seat once moving. Complicated, but works.



I'm assuming you're mounting from the nearside, same as mounting a horse, but can't help wondering whether you're making it more difficult for yourself by leaning the bike _away_ from you. I also mount from the left (old habits die hard!) but I lean the bike _towards_ me so it's low enough to swing my right leg over the saddle then use the right pedal to move off and pull myself up onto the seat. 

Now to do this would mean standing on your left leg which you say is the one you have problems with, so I'm wondering whether it would be possible for you to mount from the offside, leaning the bike towards you and basically reversing the movements above so you pedal off with your left leg.

Hope I haven't confused you, it's much easier to show someone in person than describe in words


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> . Is there any way to divide the mile by the time and get a candence? Would only give average though not flat and hills seperately.



No but if you know what gear you are riding and what speed I can tell you your cadence.

At the risk of getting you lost here, the gear is determined by how many teeth are on the cogs (forgive me if you know this). So if your front ring is say 30 teeth and the rear cog you are using is 25, you are riding a 30x25 which gives you a gear of 31.25 inches (all gears are measured in inches). This is a very low or easy gear a gear of 100 would be at the other end of the spectum i.e. quite hard.

Anyway if when using this gear you are doing 7.5mph, then you are doing a cadence of 80rpm.

Knowing this information is the only way to calculate cadence without a computer.

What you do is count your teeth (if you don't know what they are), on each cog and make a chart i.e.

..............................*rear cogs*
.............................*12 15 17*
*Front chainrings 30* 66 53 11
........................*42* 92 74 65 etc....

By doing this, you get to see where gears overlap and get a feel for which gears you use most. You can see above that a 42x17 is the same gear as 30x12 but as Andy was saying the 30x12 is not a gear you'd use because it gives the chainline a rather severe angle and will probably rub on the front mech. So the ones in red might exist but be unusable. The gear chart also allows you to make calculations on your cadence.

It looks complex and awkward, I know but it slowly begins to unravel itself as you become familiar with the concepts and is a ultimately a very powerful tool.

If you do want to have a go at it I can let you have a spreadsheet I've set up which does all the calulation on your behalf once you enter the gears and speed.

Hope this doesn't confuse.


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## purplemoon (16 Sep 2008)

Ooooo I'd love the spreadsheet if you don't mind Crackle 

I've been following the gear thing and learning about cadence over the last few days and starting to get the hang of spinning rather than grinding but I don't actually know what my cadence is.

I've also experienced the chain rub and wondered if my gears were slightly out of alignment but now realise I'm using the wrong gears and doing the diagonal stretch thing 

Mine is a 24 speed (3x8) and I either use gears 1/5-8 or 2/1-3 and can manage around 12mph so guess I need to re-think how I use the gears


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

You have to pm me your e-mail address then as I can't send attachments via pm's


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## purplemoon (16 Sep 2008)

Done!


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

I'd like a copy of the spreadsheet too and will PM Crackle my address.

I'm a recumbent trike rider and I seem to find that I seem to be pedalling slower than most other cyclists I see, although going at the same speed. I tend not to push too hard on the pedals, if that makes sense, and change down early for the hills (my trike goes up hills like treacle). However if my legs are spinning too fast I find it uncomfortable. Is there any difference in cadence style for recumbents or am I just going about it wrong?


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

Auntie Helen: I don't have a table for your wheel size  

What is your trike, 20" wheels all around? If so I might be able to work it out.


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

Yep, 20" wheels all round, although I'm about to fit Big Apple tyres all round which I'm sure is good for an extra inch


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## Nick1979 (16 Sep 2008)

Really impressive progress KTurner!
The two more common causes of knee pain for new cyclists are a too slow cadence ("grinding") and a saddle too low. So you have to be especially careful with both.

* Cadence too low:
For most riders, 80 rpm (on the flat) is a minimum to be efficient and friendly to your knees. You should aim for 90-100 and be a true "spinner". Don't worry about being more out of breath with a faster cadence, it's actually because you are going faster! Pedalling fast is a habit to train, at the beginning you will find it awkward and tend to bounce on the saddle, but after some time it becomes natural.
You can use a cadence monitor but it's not too hard to count (for example 10s and multiply by 6, or 15 and multiply by 4). Using your speed and a chart might seem a bit complicated, but it's also a very good alternative (find a long straight bit of road and ride at a constant speed, noting which gear you are on). You only need to do that a few times to get a feel of what the cadence is, after that you will "know" at what cadence you pedal.

You raised a very good point by saying your feet fly out of the pedals when pedalling at high cadence. I honestly don't think it is possible to pedal at 90/100rpm on flat pedals. As you have certainly spent some time on this forum, I'm sure you already know the answer: clipless pedals. I know it tends to scare a lot of people but they are very very safe! Avoid the old style toe clips, they are either useless (if loose) or dangerous (if tight), SPD pedals on the lightest tension setting are VERY easy to get out, much easier than toe clips!

Having only one good leg for stopping on is not really an issue really. All clipless users (that I know at least!) have a favourite leg they always use for stopping: I always use my left one, and my right shoe stay clipped in from the beginning to the end of the ride. I just instinctively lean the bike a bit to the left (like you do I'm sure) when stopping and unclip my left foot, I think I have NEVER stopped on my right leg at all.
In addition, as your ride is hilly, you will develop muscles that are currently unused by pulling on the pedals (in addition to pushing): better for your knee, easier, and smoother pedalling!

* Saddle too low:
This is very important as well for your knees. I don't really know what advice to give you regarding you finding difficult to get on the bike but you have to find a way to have your saddle at the right height to avoid hurting your knees. I'm sure someone here can recommend a method to determine the right height (knee bent at 20 degrees when at the bottom of the pedal stroke? is it right?)

Don't worry too much about using 'wrong' gear combinations, even if it's not ideal, modern transmissions cope with this without any problem. Just try to avoid the 'extreme' combination (smallest ring with smallest cog) and you'll be fine, apart from this one, feel free to use all your gears, they are there for that!!


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## Scoosh (16 Sep 2008)

purplemoon said:


> Ooooo I'd love the spreadsheet if you don't mind Crackle


PM on the way !


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## Scoosh (16 Sep 2008)

Slightly off thread but sort of relevant.

*k turner* - I'm staggered at how far you have come in such a short time . You are so determined and so ready to follow guidance - CHAPEAU !

*Auntie Helen* - LOVE the avatar, brilliant and dead  !


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

e-mail away people - hope it makes sense.


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## purplemoon (16 Sep 2008)

Crackle said:


> e-mail away people - hope it makes sense.



It might help if you'd actually attached the file to the email


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

purplemoon said:


> It might help if you'd actually attached the file to the email




Sssshhhhh! I sent it again. 

Some people are fussy.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Crackle - I will PM you my email address. It would be easier and quicker than trying to ride with one hand while studying my watch!

Left leg is the bad one so I mount on the right hand side, offside, facing the bike, and the pavement edge helps me on the saddle. If there is no pavement, I just do one spin with the left leg and hop up, pulling the bike under me with my hands and counteract the righthand wobble by pulling the left hand quickly at the same time putting the right foot on ready to push quickly so I dont stop and fall over. May sound complicated, but I am used to falling and climbing on and off a moving pony. Got to get him to stand some day. 

I will sit on a cushion counting teeth tonight. My bike has 3 front gears and 7 back ones, if you can save me the counting. I am not sure I understand the colours in your example,but do understand you must not put a diagonal pull to avoid strain, so I stay in the middle four of the seven all the time and have started changing small and middle on the front.


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

Just got in from a nice hour's cycle ride where I diced with death a couple of times getting my stopwatch working. Not dicing with death with traffic (there's none around here) rather the inability I have (same for my husband) to look down/at the back tyre/at one's watch without veering off to the right. Anyway, with a few near misses on the right hand verge I discovered that my cadence seems to be about 62ish on the flat, 70ish on hills (not really steep hills, there were none of them on today's ride, hurrah).

That's clearly a lower cadence than everyone says is most efficient but it feels really comfortable for me. Is there a difference with trikes and the fact that I have smaller wheels or do I need to face the fact that my technique needs considerable improvement?

Thanks for the spreadsheet Crackle, I will study it now!


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Back from feeding deliquent ADHA pony in one piece.

Auntie Helen - isnt it easier to look at the front wheel than the back one?
Cant avoid the hills here, as I do the same route everyday, 8-12 minutes to do the mile there and 6-8 coming home. Wish it was the other way round I am not warmed up till I get there and those hills are murder at 6am. Are hills easier in a trike, I nearly bought one for stability but seem to be managing ok.

Crackle - well my batteries on light/computer are dead after only using it half a dozen times, but from previous rides I can judge the following: 9 to 11mph in small ring in front and 3 and 4 on back ring. Coming home on the flat using middle ring in front and 3 and 4 on back. On the flat I dont struggle with the middle ring, only when the hills are too steep then I do about 4-5mph on small ring with 2 or 3 on back. The numbers on the handles are up to 3 and 7, so 21 speed. Will you tell me how you work that out and I will get counting teeth after I have eaten. I teach computers so I will be fine on Excel formulas.

If I cant get it sorted, my ponys childsharer is back on Wednesday or Thursday from holiday and she can do the watch thing.


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## Nick1979 (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> My bike has 3 front gears and 7 back ones, if you can save me the counting. I am not sure I understand the colours in your example,but do understand you must not put a diagonal pull to avoid strain, so I stay in the middle four of the seven all the time and have started changing small and middle on the front.



Most of the time (on road bikes at least), there is a number on each sproket/chainring telling you how many teeth there are!

As I said before, don't worry too much about the diagonal pull. Try to avoid it for long period of time if you can be bothered but this is much less important than having the right gear to keep your cadence high/constant. Just use your gears, don't worry, you won't break anything


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> Auntie Helen - isnt it easier to look at the front wheel than the back one?


Front wheels, plural. I mean that I'm looking at the back wheel because perhaps I wonder if I've got a puncture or something, then I find myself swerving. I don't have a tendency to look at wheels per se, only when something significant might be happening!


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Nick1979 - THANKYOU SO MUCH for that info, I wont have to count now. I was planning on putting a dab of nailpolish to remember my starting point, and envisaging a nightmare trying not to get dizzy counting.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Auntie Helen - I could swear the trike in your picture has two at the back and one at the front, and I have the right glasses on.

Scoosh - thanks for the compliment earlier I have a reason of course or else I probably wouldnt be doing this.


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> Nick1979 - THANKYOU SO MUCH for that info, I wont have to count now. I was planning on putting a dab of nailpolish to remember my starting point, and envisaging a nightmare trying not to get dizzy counting.



Hopefully you can see the numbers but...... Most rear cassettes have a standard configuration. It might be enough to count the smallest and largest say 11-28. If it's a seven speed then this site (good old Sheldon), will give you most of the possible combos. So for instance the drop down list says for that range on a 7 speed it's likely to be 11-13-15-18-21-24-28.

As for your shifter indicators, they are merely that, an indication. They signify nothing about the gear you've chosen other than its relative place on the rear cassette/front chainring.

That said, it sound like you're riding a 26-30" gear which at 7-8 mph is a cadence of 80/90, which is perfectly respectable rhythm to aim for in all gears and terrains. If so, well done.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Oh wow, you have made me feel I am back in the land of the living, being at a respectable candence for a beginner. Six months ago I couldnt even climb the stairs in my house and slept in the lounge for a year. I still struggle now, but that is because my weight is on my feet. My mum doesnt understand how cycling can be no strain. Sitting on the pony is all bum and little leg work as well, I just need to keep him slow which is a constant battle. I only have weight through my legs when I stand up for a good stretch. So where is the spreadsheet and how do I do it myself?


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

Would anyone believe I forgot the attachment again 

I'm hoping it's self explanatory and it's also got some instructions on it. So have a look and any feedback appreciated as it was originally something I'd just put together for myself.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Thanks received. Will give you feed back tomorrow as a computor tutor and very beginner cycler, good mix.


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

I forgot to say that there are several tables. You obviously only need the one that matches your wheel and tyre sizes.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Glad you are still on. I have 700x40c not on the lists I have checked the back and front, not that they would be any different to each other. Not on your list or on the website list. Googled for other sites and cant find it. It is a halfrauds bike if that is any help. They did have spare tubes for me so it cant be that uncommon the bike is only 2 months old. ????? 

Found it on my headlight/computer booklet it is equivalent to a 2224 or 40-622 using windup torch and two pairs of glasses it is so small. one on my face and other one as magnifier.

Getting frustrated now!!!! Did you know when a blonde explodes you have strawberry jam all over the road/walls.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

PS on this site, which numbers go where? tyre size calculator.

http://www.tyresave.co.uk/tyresize.html


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

found it here: further down the list: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0307.htm

now what? am I back to counting teeth? or pulling them rather

taking my meds now wont be able to read in 20 mins. see all you brain boxes tomorrow.


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> Auntie Helen - I could swear the trike in your picture has two at the back and one at the front, and I have the right glasses on.


It's an optical illusion as it definitely has two at the front (well, the middle, my feet are at the front!). You can just see my hands holding the steering arms which are next to the front wheels.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Now that makes sense if the photo is from the back, I assumed it was from the front.


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

...so I have a huge mane of blonde hair covering my face?

Well it might be an idea, I suppose, but would make it a bit tricky seeing where I was going!

Here's the pic in more usual size.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Much better. I thought the black blob on your hair was your face in a motorbike style helmet, sorry for that, but as I said earlier I have two pairs of glasses one on my face and the other as a magnifier with a wind up torch. I am only 46 and still allowed to drive a car, they are big enough to see and the pony sees anything I cant when we are out (without glasses for safety reasons.)

Anyway now I know there are two blondes on here and I am sure the fellas love the bigger pic too. 

I think the sit up trikes have two at the back which probably confused me, but my daughters indoor recumbant is wider at the back than front come to think of it.

Is the black blob a headrest, I would get awful neck ache if it isnt.


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> found it here: further down the list: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0307.htm
> 
> now what? am I back to counting teeth? or pulling them rather
> 
> taking my meds now wont be able to read in 20 mins. see all you brain boxes tomorrow.



Change D7 to 28 and use the 2nd to last table. That'll be as near as dammit. You might want to just change the 700x32 to 700x40 as well just for your own reference.

Note to self to add a tyre chart on the spreadsheet


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Thanks Crackle glad you are back I was beginning to melt with all the stress and hot flushes. I have a few minutes of reading time left before I fall over so will have a play quickly.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Still need to count teeth as you have nine in the line and I only have seven on the right handle. ?

64 on small ring on 3rd back ring gives me 47 candence at 9 miles per hour and,
84 on middle ring on 3rd back ring gives me 36 candence

is this right? if I use the blue number it goes over 200 ?

been up since 4am so need some sleep now, tomorrows another day, cant be doing with this anymore tonight. 

sleep well.


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

What have you put in for the cogs rear and front or have you just left them at the default?

The blue number under the front chainring size is for putting in your cadence. The spreadsheet then displays the speed underneath the gear inches for the cadence you've put in. The actual cadence calculator is at the bottom.

42 => front chainring size
_80 => your proposed cadence rate for that gear_

So

....12
42 98
_*80*_ _23_

So that is saying for a gear of 42x12 (98 inches), pedalling at 80rpm, you will travel at 23mph.

Doesn't sound like you've quite got it set up right.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Left them at the default. I thought the tyre size alleviated the teeth counting. Sorry will go and check bike with torch and hope numbers are written on or count and try again.


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## Auntie Helen (16 Sep 2008)

k turner said:


> Is the black blob a headrest, I would get awful neck ache if it isnt.


Yes it is a headrest but I don't actually use it that much - mainly when zooming downhill to create a more streamlined shape or when sitting stationary at traffic lights. I find it's a bit too bouncy to lean my head against it whilst actually travelling alone the rather bumpy roads round here.


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## k turner (16 Sep 2008)

Sorry folks, my internet chucked me off for a while. Cant see the numbers on the cogs as there is plastic and metal in the way. I will try and source a chart to give it to me based on the gear mechanism type. Will not be able to count them either unless I use nailpolish and spin the chain.

Auntie Helen, I found the car headrest useless as well, too bouncy. Well night night for now all. Even my internet is trying to tell me it is overheating.


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## Crackle (16 Sep 2008)

K what bike do you have. We may be able to simplify this somewhat.


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## k turner (17 Sep 2008)

Apollo CX10 S from Halfrauds. The name on the gears is shimano tourney sis index on the back and the plastic cover on the long pedal thing is sr suntour. on the handle bars gripshear max.

Hope that gives you a good enough idea, is it standard stuff or are they using weird things to save money on build? in other words can I get parts if need be?

thanks so much for all this help I think it has been a challenge for both of us. lol


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## Crackle (17 Sep 2008)

Well I can't find any technical info on the CX10, so I'm afraid you'll have to count the teeth if you want to be absolutely precise. It's honestly not too bad to do.

Anyway looking at the info you've given me and the picture and style of bike, my guess is it's somehting like a 13-15-17-20-24-29-34 cassette with a 44/32/22 chainring.

This means you are roughly doing a cadence of 70-85 in the gears you say you are using.

For the purposes of the sore knees discussion, this is perfectly adequate and you should aim to keep that up.

Get those toe-clips, dig out those excercises, keep riding and at some point think about adding some small loops to begin to increase the distance - Good luck and well done so far


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## Andy in Sig (17 Sep 2008)

If you want to count the teeth on a cog, keep one finger on one of the pointy bits and move the other finger over all the others one at a time. Alternatively put a mark with a felt tipped pen under every fifth one and then tot them up. (One mark needs to be longer than the rest so you don't count it twice.)


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## Ludwig (17 Sep 2008)

If you ride very much on your toes you will not suffer any Knee soreness.


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## k turner (17 Sep 2008)

Crackle thanks for the info, will have a play with the spreadsheet again tonight.

Andy I have thought about increasing the distance, and with all these hills I can take the long way home which gives me an extra .3 of a mile which is nearly all flat, but going that way will also give me another hill. I did it twice this week in the evening but sticking to short route in the morning.

I was forced to go much further today as I had to get all my meds from the pharmacy and they wont deliver, so although it was not much further, it is down to the village, and UP UP UP home again.

So I will forget about increasing the gears and just keep doing this then. I will also start having short bursts on the in-house recumbant.

With regards to foot position, I should have asked months ago really, in the ponys stirrups I use toes and ball only so as not to get stuck with heel down stretching my calves. I assumed from watching the little girl that comes with me on her bike that I should use the middle/arch of my foot. Today in fact I did heels down to stretch them and realised that they would be shortening if I use toes and balls and didnt know which was best.

I am glad someone put me right on this, may find it easier now. Going to put the seat more forwards again, the last 2 days have been worse with it back. If I stay in the present set of gears for winter when it gets colder and my muscles and joints may hurt more, then in summer I can give increasing gears again. Better to be safe than sorry I suppose.

Once again, thanks all.


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## Auntie Helen (19 Sep 2008)

Well whilst husband was mending the 4 punctures we picked up yesterday between the two of us he also counted the chainring gear numbers and I plugged them into Crackle's spreadsheet.

Interestingly although Uncle James has a Trice Q too, his is three years older and the gearing is quite different. It turns out I have a higher highest and a lower lowest gear than him.

I've plugged in the cadence numbers at 80 and discover I should be hitting 25mph in my top gear when cycling with the correct cadence and I'm only getting about 20 at the moment so my cadence is clearly too low (which I knew anyway from timing it).

Armed with the spreadsheet duly filled in we're off on a 30 mile ride today together and we'll see how we do at a higher cadence. I do find I'm jiggling about more on the seat at that speed but I suppose I'll get used to it as someone said above.

Thanks again Crackle for the very helpful spreadsheet!


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## Crackle (19 Sep 2008)

Auntie Helen. If there's any differences in the figures on my spreadsheet and actual on the road readings, then it will be down to the tyre sizes entered on the spreadsheet. For your wheels I've taken the 20x1.7 tyre size as 19.7 inch diameter but depending on which tyres you have that value can be anything from 18.2 to 20.2, which could make a difference of @0.5mph either way on your cadence chart in your highest gears.

Now that you're familiar with it, you'll understand what I mean. To be 100% sure you need to check your tyres for the exact markings, preferrably the ISO markings i.e. 47-406 corresponds to the 19.7 in your spreadsheet. 

I had put this link in the spreadsheet but I hadn't made it clear, nor explained why it's important.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3802

It's a table of tyre sizes and size markings. As you can see there's a lot of potential confusion, so some careful looking at your tyres is needed. Hopefully they've got the ISO markings on them. If so use them.

It's because of the tyre nomenclature confusion that different gear inch calculation websites will give you different results. You think you've chosen the correct tyre size but in fact it's an American website so you haven't or vice versa.

Apologies that I didn't really make this clear before but I thought I'd better had now as you're using it as a calibration tool in a far more precise way than I'd ever bothered with myself. That's the perils of handing out things you've developed for yourself to others.


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## Auntie Helen (19 Sep 2008)

Ah, I'm not really using it REALLY properly as a calibration tool, more as a tool to help us get the hang of cadence and have more of an idea what we're doing. We've discovered that the trip computers are fairly dodgy anyway, having cycled side by side at the same speed and having readings 1mph different. But it all works together to give us an overall idea of how we're doing and I certainly need to increase my cadence.

I will check on the tyre site but I'm probably going to switch my Marathon Racers to some Big Apples shortly so it'll all have to change again!

Thanks again for doing it, Crackle.


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## Crackle (19 Sep 2008)

Auntie Helen said:


> Ah, I'm not really using it REALLY properly as a calibration tool, more as a tool to help us get the hang of cadence and have more of an idea what we're doing. *We've discovered that the trip computers are fairly dodgy anyway, having cycled side by side at the same speed and having readings 1mph different*. But it all works together to give us an overall idea of how we're doing and I certainly need to increase my cadence.
> 
> I will check on the tyre site but I'm probably going to switch my Marathon Racers to some Big Apples shortly so it'll all have to change again!
> 
> Thanks again for doing it, Crackle.



I can believe that but did you put the same tyre size in both and if so do you both have the same tyres?

On my mtn bike, I swopped the off-road to on road tyres but I forgot about changing the computer and didn't twig until I compared the speeds and time of previous rides and realized that despite my supposed better average speed I was still taking the same amount of time to do it. Then it clicked.

It's really essential to put the tyre sizes you have in. Put them in to small and your computer will over read, too big and it will under read and on a longer ride it will be significantly different.


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## purplemoon (19 Sep 2008)

Ok, been out for a ride this arvo and tested out the gearing and cadence 

My bike's gearing is 28/38/40 front and 11-13-15-18-21-24-28-32 rear.

I was using gears 2(38) and 5(18) which gives me a cadence of 80 and I covered 6.5 miles in 30 mins, stopping just a minute or two for a drink of water halfway, so your speed of 14.07 mph is pretty accurate too 

Oh, forgot to mention there was also a fairly steep bridge en route which I crossed twice without stopping or changing gear on the way up


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