# Training whilst on a vegan diet?



## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

Now my exams and dissertation are finished, I'm getting back into training for the Lakeland 50, a 50 mile fell run in July. I'll be running 5 times a week and doing weight in the gym 3 times a week and I don't want to lose too much muscle mass, which will be difficult with this type of event.

The tough component is the fact I have to complete a whole month on a strict vegan diet, which I've never done before. Just wondering if anyone has any tips of advice on how to get the appropriate nutrients, to sustain a healthy regime. I know some top athletes manage to do it, so it's possible, I just don't have a clue how!

Any input would be appreciated, cheers.


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## HLaB (30 Jan 2011)

I cant really advise and this example is vegetarian not vegan but Robert Millar (KoM) always said he was not vegetarian because of any ethical reason but because it could be processed easier; whether he also took nutrient supplements is anybody guess!


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## Ravenbait (30 Jan 2011)

There are some top Ironman triathletes who are vegan. Try googling "plant strong".

My top tip is nutritional yeast. The B vitamins are the hard ones to get. Marmite and nutritional yeast are your friends. Other than that, the only thing I missed (I was vegan for about a year for health reasons) was the texture of meat. We can't have nuts in the house because my partner's allergic so we ate a lot of tofu and it's just not chewy enough.

Sam


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## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

Thanks for the tips, the Plant Strong concept seems to be pretty sound. I like the fact it's designed around fueling the body, and not completely based on the animal rights, which is not why I'm doing it.

The thought of not eating meat is pretty scary to be honest, I tried it a week or so ago but was caught out by Fanta Orange, which was annoying. So now it's time to try again.

Marmite is a good tip, will be sure to include that in my diet plan. Luckily i love Tofu, so I'll be eating lots of that, along with lentils. I'll also be drinking whey protein shakes.

I'm slightly worried about not having fish for such a long time, and there aren't any supplements i can think of to replace the nutrients?

EDIT; Oh and Ravenbait, I remember you asking on a status of mine why I'm going vegan, it's mainly because of a bet, which is not only economic incentive but pride as well. I also want to see if i'm capable of coping, as although I've kept to strict diets before, I've always relied on meat as the foundation of my nutrition for the majority of meals.


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## Ravenbait (30 Jan 2011)

darkstar said:


> Thanks for the tips, the Plant Strong concept seems to be pretty sound. I like the fact it's designed around fueling the body, and not completely based on the animal rights, which is not why I'm doing it.
> 
> The thought of not eating meat is pretty scary to be honest, I tried it a week or so ago but was caught out by Fanta Orange, which was annoying. So now it's time to try again.
> 
> ...



Try getting hold of some cool oil. They usually have things like that in health food stores. There are plant versions of the Omega oils you get from fish.

Note that whey is from milk, so it's not vegan. You could go for soy instead. Avoid brown rice protein powder, it's rank. To be honest, you can get more than enough protein from pulses and there are proteins in wheat and fungus as well, so you are not going to go short.

Sam


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## Garz (30 Jan 2011)

Why are you on the vegan diet if your not doing it for the belief side may I ask?

Secondly fell running and distance/endurance events are not exactly appropriate for people who want to sustain muscle mass. Your body will strip down to a lean figure in design for these types of events as it won't want to be carrying excess.

In answer to your o/p you have done this by enquiring about supplements. For the conditions you have set out it is easier to just take supplements in tandem with your vegan diet. Take a few extra vitamins every other day (i.e. omega 3 if your not eating fish) but you should still maintain enough by eating fruits/veg and supplements.

Good luck with t he training, I completed a month on a veggie diet and found the last couple of weeks tough. I found the increasing amount of cheese and sugary foods on offer when eating out counteracted the 'healthy' aspect. It does take more planning and patience that it seems to stick to it properly.


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## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

The cool oil looks great, and I hadn't considered the whey protein issue. I typically drink a protein shake every other day, and a recovery shale on the others days. I'll have to look for an alternative, taste is not too much of an issue if the selection is short.

Oh and I edited the previous post with a explination of why i'm doing this.

Cheers for the tips.


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## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

Garz said:


> Why are you on the vegan diet if your not doing it for the belief side may I ask?
> 
> Secondly fell running and distance/endurance events are not exactly appropriate for people who want to sustain muscle mass. Your body will strip down to a lean figure in design for these types of events as it won't want to be carrying excess.
> 
> ...



I edited a previous post with the reason, it's partly a bet and also to prove to myself that I can do it.

The muscle issue will be a problem, I'm by no means stacked, but don't want to become to skinny, David Goggins is an inspiration when it comes to this, as he's an ultra-distance athlete and manages to sustain good strength and size.

I'll be buying vitamin tablets for the first time, Omega 3 is a must I think. Cheers for the tips and congrats on achieving a month without meat, last meal tonight had better be a good one i suppose!


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## Ravenbait (30 Jan 2011)

darkstar said:


> The cool oil looks great, and I hadn't considered the whey protein issue. I typically drink a protein shake every other day, and a recovery shale on the others days. I'll have to look for an alternative, taste is not too much of an issue if the selection is short.
> 
> Oh and I edited the previous post with a explination of why i'm doing this.
> 
> Cheers for the tips.



Taste is an issue with brown rice powder. I have an entire bag I wouldn't foist on my worst enemy.

Soy is fine. I typically use SIS Go, but that has carbs in it too, so you probably want to avoid it as a protein shake. Their Build is whey-based, IIRC. Get yourself down to myprotein.co.uk if you haven't already. I can give you my referrer code for a discount on your first order, if you like.

Vegan isn't as hard as people make out. I enjoyed it. We ate a lot of Asian cuisine, particularly Japanese temple cuisine, and Indian food is easily made vegan by replacing ghee with vegetable oil and avoiding paneer. I have a slight wheat intolerance and can't eat tomatoes or peppers, and we can't have nuts. So if we managed it you should be laughing!

Sam


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## Garz (30 Jan 2011)

darkstar said:


> I edited a previous post with the reason, it's partly a bet and also to prove to myself that I can do it.
> 
> The muscle issue will be a problem, I'm by no means stacked, but don't want to become to skinny, David Goggins is an inspiration when it comes to this, as he's an ultra-distance athlete and manages to sustain good strength and size.
> 
> I'll be buying vitamin tablets for the first time, Omega 3 is a must I think. Cheers for the tips and congrats on achieving a month without meat, last meal tonight had better be a good one i suppose!



I thought it may be a bet darkstar. Anyway I wish you the best on the training and the event!

I would definitely not worry about losing the muscle. I used to be young and wanted the mass but nowadays looking leaner is far better to me. It takes a long time to break down all the muscle if your not doing the crash way, so if your event is only a few months away see it as a good base to build upon again after the D-day.


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## montage (30 Jan 2011)

On a side not from the vegan thing....running 5 times a week for a 50 miler (assuming that at least some of these are long distance! ) is crossing swords with the angel of injury.


Back on the vegan thing, lots and lots and lots of nuts.






..edited for a type


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## Zoiders (30 Jan 2011)

Long distance running and a vegan diet sounds like a sure fire way of having a stream of liquid shoot down your leg during an event.


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## zoxed (30 Jan 2011)

darkstar said:


> I'm getting back into training for the Lakeland 50, a 50 mile fell run in July.



Changing diet and following a tough training program at the same time sounds like a bad idea to me (sorry !). As a vegan for over 15 years, and vegy since 1987 I do not think the vegan diet itself is a problem, but not everyone transitions in the same way !! You may want consider which of the 2 activities is most important to you !!
If you are worried about protein intake then I sometimes use Weider Soy 80+ protein powder with water, and I always take Veg 1 multi-vitamin tablets (direct from the Vegan Society online shop) but I do not know if I really need them (I consider them cheap insurance !).
You could also try asking your question on some vegan/sports forums.


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## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

montage said:


> On a side not from the vegan thing....running 5 times a week for a 50 miler (assuming that at least some of these are long distance! ) is crossing swords with the angel of injury.



Yes one of those is a hills session, one is an fartlek interval session. The longest session is currently 18 miles, I won't be going much longer than that very often for the next month, marathon distance maximum if i'm feeling healthy.


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## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

Zoiders said:


> Long distance running and a vegan diet sounds like a sure fire way of having a stream of liquid shoot down your leg during an event.



Lovely





I'll try and make sure that doesn't happen.


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## Zoiders (30 Jan 2011)

darkstar said:


> Lovely
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Getting the squits is known by product of endurance events.

It can be bad as it dehydrates you.


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## darkstar (30 Jan 2011)

zoxed said:


> Changing diet and following a tough training program at the same time sounds like a bad idea to me (sorry !). As a vegan for over 15 years, and vegy since 1987 I do not think the vegan diet itself is a problem, but not everyone transitions in the same way !! You may want consider which of the 2 activities is most important to you !!
> If you are worried about protein intake then I sometimes use Weider Soy 80+ protein powder with water, and I always take Veg 1 multi-vitamin tablets (direct from the Vegan Society online shop) but I do not know if I really need them (I consider them cheap insurance !).
> You could also try asking your question on some vegan/sports forums.



I've checked myself out with the Uni sport science nutritionists and they said I can pop in if I'm ever experiencing difficulty. If I ever feel the effects of it, I'll stop right away, without hesitation. The running is by far the more important aspect, though.

I should mention, I've been running for quite a while now, completed a few marathons, and the training for this event has been going on for a little while already.


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## darkstar (31 Jan 2011)

First day in and today my diet has been;

Two bowls of muesli, with chopped banana, blueberries and pumpkin seeds added. 

Marmite on toast and an apple

Bowl of red lentil soup

Stir-fry with pak choi, tofu, chili, garlic, onion, broccoli, mushrooms, and cashew nuts.

Walnuts, Raspberries and a banana

Drank nothing but water, will try and get in the habit of drinking fruit juice for the sugar, and coca cola when on a heavier training day. This is a light day as I've not been out for a run. Also need to get some supplements.


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## Yellow Fang (31 Jan 2011)

Isn't there a vegan runners club? I vaguely know a vegan who runs lots of marathons and ultras. She's a member of it.


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## Gandalf (12 Feb 2011)

Here are a couple of websites that I find useful

Vegan Fitness

Organic Athlete


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## darkstar (13 Feb 2011)

Gandalf said:


> Here are a couple of websites that I find useful
> 
> Vegan Fitness
> 
> Organic Athlete



Thanks very much I check them out.

I'm 2 weeks in now and I'm going through a tough patch, my swiss housmate has bought a fondu set back with him with swiss cheese and the rest of my house are having a cheese fondu which can't be put of due to expiration dates. So a load of mates are coming over and I won't be able to eat anything!

The running is going ok, it's when I swim I find I'm lacking energy. I used to alway get home and have a big portion of egg whites on toast with sausage after a long swim session, but stick to a salad and mushroom wrap with salsa and a load of fruit now. Which is fine, just not ideal.

I've lost a fair bit of weight already, so I'll be stopping as soon as the month is over, though I'll be keeping a number os meals veggie and the rise in fruit and veg intake has had noticeable effects on my skin and general well being.


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## zoxed (13 Feb 2011)

darkstar said:


> ... a big portion of egg whites on toast with sausage after a long swim session, but stick to a salad and mushroom wrap with salsa and a load of fruit now. Which is fine, just not ideal.



I am not a dietitian but it sounds like you are replacing a high protein/carb meal with a weight-loss snack ?! (I would guess you feel hungry again quite soon after the meal as it is mostly water ?)
If it not just before my main meal of the day I often follow a training session with bread and tofu sandwiches, seasoned with Marmite and washed down with plenty of water. Or a big bowl of muesli and OJ.



darkstar said:


> I've lost a fair bit of weight already, so I'll be stopping as soon as the month is over...



I would suggest that as long as your weight does not drop below a healthy level then loosing weight is not in itself a problem, although it may indicate that you diet needs tweaking.


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## darkstar (13 Feb 2011)

zoxed said:


> I am not a dietitian but it sounds like you are replacing a high protein/carb meal with a weight-loss snack ?! (I would guess you feel hungry again quite soon after the meal as it is mostly water ?)
> If it not just before my main meal of the day I often follow a training session with bread and tofu sandwiches, seasoned with Marmite and washed down with plenty of water. Or a big bowl of muesli and OJ.
> 
> 
> ...


I's been eating a bit more pasta recently to increase energy levels, but the weight loss is not something I want or need. I'm at a healthy weight and I'm losing muscle, which is not my aim. I have muesli with blueberries and soya milk every morning with 2 pieces of fruit and a glass of smoothie. A portion of nuts and a salad for first snack. Then something like a pitta bread filled with salad, salsa and some sort of cooked vegetable. Second snack is 2 portions of fruit, some nuts and a green juice. Main meal is usually pasta or cooked vegetables with rice etc. Final snack is a piece of fruit and a oat bar.


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## Jim_Noir (13 Feb 2011)

I'm Vegan and do a lot of long distance running. It's a total myth that you'll not have muscle mass, check out Mac Danzig trianing and eating.


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## darkstar (13 Feb 2011)

Jim_Noir said:


> I'm Vegan and do a lot of long distance running. It's a total myth that you'll not have muscle mass, check out Mac Danzig trianing and eating.



Oh I know it's possible the maintain muscle mass, but i'm fairly ignorant when it comes to the vegan diet and don't have a clue how to fuel myself. Money is also an issue being a student.


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## Jim_Noir (13 Feb 2011)

Peanut butter, the healthy gear not the sunpat or shop own gear... and use it for loads of stuff, saty sauce... bananna and then there is peanut butter and jelly time


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## Jim_Noir (13 Feb 2011)

Though, I will say I trained for a marathon back in Oct, and became lazy and didn't do any weights and did lose a bit of upper body mass... nothing really to do with diet... just ran and cycled loads and didn't do anything else!


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## zoxed (14 Feb 2011)

darkstar said:


> I'm at a healthy weight and I'm losing muscle, which is not my aim.



Sorry if the answer is obvious, but why do you think your weight-loss is from muscle loss ? Could it not be from liquid and/or fat loss ? I thought muscle atrophy was very slow ?


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## darkstar (14 Feb 2011)

zoxed said:


> Sorry if the answer is obvious, but why do you think your weight-loss is from muscle loss ? Could it not be from liquid and/or fat loss ? I thought muscle atrophy was very slow ?



Well last time I had it checked my body fat percentage was 8%, so I'd be surprised if i was losing much, and I've always though muscle is lost first naturally.


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## ttcycle (14 Feb 2011)

darkstar-I'm not vegan or veggie but know a fair amount about nutrition from the days I used to train.

The increase in veg and fruit will be really good for you as it's a good source of vitamins and minerals.

I'd echo what was posted above - your after training snack is not protein heavy enough.

Get some pulses in ie lentils or some kidney beans/butter beans (get dried as they're cheaper but also much nicer in texture- you just have to plan and soak them overnight if you want to use them over night- they do take longer to cook but have nicer 'bite' then tinned stuff) and tofu, peanut butter as a post training snack. What you're eating is healthy but in no way does it help you replace protein.


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## Jim_Noir (14 Feb 2011)

Peanut butter yummmmmmm 

My post long run dinner is a peanut butter stir fry... costs only about 2 quid to make....

As much mushrooms as you want... I used to use tofu too but to be honest the shrooms drown the taste of it.

Stir fry these bad boys with cashew nuts

In a put boil half a cup of water, add a splash of soy sauce, some dried chillies, garlic and Ginger.. when it’s boiled put in about three big blobs of peanut butter... let it melt then stick in to the wok... then add noodles.

There are two healthy peanut butter out there. peanut butter and co, is the best and only true vegan one there is... though it's expensive and I can only get it in one Tesco store. Then there is whole earth peanut butter, not really vegan if you are on the diet for ethical reasons (It has palm oil in it hence why we don’t touch it)... but since you are not then the whole earth stuff is fine, and can get it in most supermarkets.


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## darkstar (15 Feb 2011)

Thanks both of you, I've bought myself a pot of organic peanut butter, and I'll be sure to try out that recipe Jim.

Got a big pot of vegetable curry cooking at the moment, with mushrooms, Aubergine, Courgette, Butternut squash and chickpeas. Will eat it with brown rice, swam and weights today so a big portion


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## XmisterIS (17 Feb 2011)

There is absolutely no reason why you can't keep up your strength and fitness on a vegan diet. My diet isn't strictly vegan (I do eat fish and some meat), but I eat very little meat and I can't eat much dairy at all because of allergies. (I shouldn't eat any really, but I can't resist the occasional cheese on toast!) I cycle and go weight training and I don't have a problem maintaining strength.

Anyway, I digress. If you put together a nut (e.g. cashew) and a pulse (e.g. lentil), you make a complete protein. Also, plenty of chick peas, pumpkin seeds, etc, are excellent sources of complex carbs and protein. Eat that stuff with lots of fresh veg and a variety of grains - not just brown rice - that will get very boring! - try quinoa, millet, farika, etc. Also, fresh soya beans (you can get them in the frozen food section of the supermarket) are very tasty - just put them in boiling water, return them to the boil, then serve tossed in olive oil and a little soy sauce. They've got lots of protein and are generally excellent for you! Also, you can get vegan soy protein powder from health food shops - I take it with soya milk.


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## darkstar (18 Feb 2011)

Some great advice there mate, thanks. I'm gradually become more capable of providing a decent nutrition plan for myself, which is aided by the fact I have a bit more time now exams are over and more drive to make sure it's right. Today I've swum 2 miles, had lectures, now about to head off for a quick hour jog.

Days food has been;

Porridge (with soya milk) with 2 bananas and a slice of toast with peanut butter.

An apple, handful of mixed nuts and a oat bar.

Green juice (blended greens including spinach)

2 oranges, a pita bread filled with salad, cooked mushrooms, salsa and humous.

Brown rice and cooked vegetables with soy sauce. (I have this pre cooked in bulk and just microwave it)

Going to cook a pizza tonight, with mushrooms, olives, tomato sauce, fresh tomatoes, olive oil and pesto. With a side salad.

Then a few beers tonight to ruin it


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## Ravenbait (18 Feb 2011)

Do you use a juicer at all for your green juice, or just a blender? I've been wanting to do more juice but the juicers are either a total faff to clean or horrendously expensive.

Sam


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## darkstar (18 Feb 2011)

Just a blender, as a decent juicer seems to be quite expensive, and the pulp is all a bit messy and a faff.


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## darkstar (23 Feb 2011)

4 days are left and then the month is up. Up to this point, although I've struggles at times I've found it easier than I first thought I would. I think thats largely down to experimenting with different recipes and ingredients. Avocado has been a good addition to the diet, as it's high in natural fats and calories. I'm currently spending 2 hours in the pool 6 days a week, and running 5 days a week. Longest run comes in at 18 miles, and I feel good for the majority of the time. Still a long way off the Lakeland 50, but i feel like I've got more than enough time. Off road training will start soon.

I've given a lot of thought to how my diet will change after this month is completed, and I've decided I'm going to eat meat twice a week. Before i was literally eating meat everyday, which is just unnecessary and bad for digestion. I'll be eating Egg whites as it's an easy for of protein. Though the Soya milk shall be staying for the majority of my diet, but I won't object to consuming milk.

This weekend will be the toughest test, I'm heading back home and my mum will inevitably serve up the Sunday roast (the last day f the challenge!) and cakes will be readily available. I'm also running a marathon, which will make the temptations even stronger.

Thanks for all the advice throughout the thread, it's been a massive help.


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## ttcycle (4 Mar 2011)

Well done mate! Glad to hear it's had some positive impact on how you eat in the future.

BTW how did the weekend go with the roast etc?


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## darkstar (5 Mar 2011)

Thanks a lot mate, it's had a massive impact, 5 days after I finished the month meat just isn't a huge part of my diet anymore.

The weekend was difficult, going to the rugby with mates of mine, then into town after for a night out. They were all getting kebabs (hard to resist when drunk!), then the roast was OK, as there were loads of vegetables and vegetable gravy! I won't be full vegan/vegetarian but I'm certainly a lot closer!


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## ttcycle (5 Mar 2011)

Good stuff! SO I take it you made the whole month as a vegan then? It's very positive that it's enabled you to make some wiser choices about food in the long run!


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## darkstar (5 Mar 2011)

Yes, the month was completed successfully. It certainly became easier to manage as the month went on, but it was still difficult when going out for a meal (impossible in one case). And yeh I'm happy that it's had a lasting positive effect, and I encourage anyone to give it a go now!


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## montage (6 Mar 2011)

darkstar said:


> Yes, the month was completed successfully. It certainly became easier to manage as the month went on, but it was still difficult when going out for a meal (impossible in one case). And yeh I'm happy that it's had a lasting positive effect, and I encourage anyone to give it a go now!



After reading this I've changed my diet slightly. Less meat, more fish, and far more veg meals..... I've noticed a bit of a difference, but the large amounts of beer are more than likely outweighing the majority of positive effects. Not sure I can really be bothered to try going vegan though, I get bored enough of shopping for ingredients as it is and it seems a lot of effort.

Glad it all worked out for you!


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## darkstar (7 Mar 2011)

Nice one mate good to hear it's had an effect on you. The beer can, and always will be an issue, but I've never found it to be worth giving up, it's one of he good things in life. I just keep it to once or twice a week. Now I've got a half IM added to the lakeland 50 to train for, it'll be increasingly left out of the diet 

I usually can't be bothered to go shopping, and ASDA is only a 2 minute walk away. It's the hundreds of annoying people I hate, wading through them is not my idea of fun. You just need to get on with it though, but it sounds like your diet is fine as it is, so there's no need to change it too much.


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