# The Kayak, Canoe and Small Boat thread.



## Drago (9 Jun 2021)

Exactly what it says in the tin.

Ive a cheap Riber sit on top that I never used at all last year due to t'lockdown keeping us local for exercise. Although the nearest landing point js barely 2 miles away by the time id got in a decent paddle up the canal I could have gone 20 or 25 miles.

Anyway, like the lead singer of Yes, our very own @numbnuts , Ive decided to get back into it. The Riber is going on ebay and im going to get something similar, but plusher - a bit bigger for me, more storage, a bit more buoyancy in hand (Im close to the limit on the Riber).

I can't eskimo roll or self extract when inverted due to mobikity issues in one arm and shoulder, so I stick with the sit on top. That suits me fine for the level of casual inland waterway bimbling in which I partake, although a little bit of inshore sea kayaking might be fun to try. With leg staps im properly connected and have easily as much control as I would in a conventional kayak.

So, come hither, and talk about fun on the water.


----------



## T4tomo (9 Jun 2021)

We're paddling down the Wye for a couple of days at the end of July all being well, 18/20 of us in double canoes I think - what ever the big open ones are called. Will report back, hope the weather is good.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (9 Jun 2021)

I keep meaning to get back in to kayaking and/or canoeing, as it's something I really enjoy, particularly on a nice still river. I haven't got back to it after taking a load of training that I had the opportunity to do, which I felt was really worthwhile.

I sail a bit in my little boat when time allows, mainly inland lakes and waterways.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (9 Jun 2021)

It doesn't have to be expensive.


----------



## ColinJ (9 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> So, come hither, and talk about fun on the water.


I should buy a kayak - I fancy rescuing drowning eagles...


----------



## Pale Rider (9 Jun 2021)

I accompanied the owner of my local bike shop for a bike/boat multi-modal commute.

Two of us set off from the shop on Bromptons to board his boat at Sunderland marina, tootle up the North Sea for a few miles to North Shields, then jump back on the bikes.

The wonder of it is we managed not to drop a Brompton in the water at one end or the other.

All good fun, but a nonsense as a commute, not least because it cost him £30 to park the boat near the shop for the day.


----------



## Milkfloat (9 Jun 2021)

I have 4 kayaks ( a couple commandeered by the kids) and two paddleboards and spend quite a lot of time on the water. I have the river Avon just 50 metres from my house so it is simple to pop out for a bit, I am also a BC Paddlesports Instructor which I tend to use mostly with the Sea Scouts. Paddleboarding has taken off massively since lockdown and this has really opened up the rivers to all sorts of people, on a warm weekend some parts of the river get really crowded. I would suggest a canoe if you have mobility problems and are larger than the average bear, you have a multitude of positions you can get into and don't have to get wet like a sit on top. I sold my family canoe at the beginning of lockdown because of storage issues and a lack of use. I am on the look out for a royalex canoe for solo paddling, but prices are still crazy.


----------



## Stephen Piper (9 Jun 2021)

I have acquired over the years: two open canoes, two SOTs, a sea kayak, two SUPs, an Orkney fishing boat and an Aquaglide (inflatable dinghy). That's almost as many boats as I have bikes. I once had a serious fishing habit (which was what the SOTs were mainly used for) but now paddling for paddling's sake is more the order of the day, which is why I eventually bought a 'proper' sea kayak, a couple of years ago. 
Just as cyclechat has led to me meeting some lovely people out on the road, so kayak fishing and canoeing has led to some truly memorable paddling trips, often with various internet based groups, such as: 'anglers afloat' and 'song of the paddle'. Now it seems lockdown is finally easing (fingers crossed), I hope to repeat some similar such things before I become too old and decrepit or some zombie plague throws a spanner in the works. (:


----------



## numbnuts (9 Jun 2021)

Stephen Piper said:


> I have acquired over the years: two open canoes, two SOTs, a sea kayak, two SUPs, an Orkney fishing boat and an Aquaglide (inflatable dinghy). That's almost as many boats as I have bikes. I once had a serious fishing habit (which was what the SOTs were mainly used for) but now paddling for paddling's sake is more the order of the day, which is why I eventually bought a 'proper' sea kayak, a couple of years ago.
> Just as cyclechat has led to me meeting some lovely people out on the road, so kayak fishing and canoeing has led to some truly memorable paddling trips, often with various internet based groups, such as: *'anglers afloat*' and 'song of the paddle'. Now it seems lockdown is finally easing (fingers crossed), I hope to repeat some similar such things before I become too old and decrepit or some zombie plague throws a spanner in the works. (:


I was on Anglers Afloat


----------



## chriswoody (9 Jun 2021)

Sea kayaking was a big passion of mine for several years. As well as day trips along the West coast of Cumbria i would go up to Scotland annually and paddle for several days, wild camping along the way. Below are some photos of a four day circumnavigation of Rassey and Rona, between Skye and the mainland.





















Since moving to Germany the sea couldn't be further away and the paddling dropped by the way side. Then last year we decided to buy an inflatable Kayak and stand up paddle board from Decathlon. I would love to get a canoe, but we have no space for storage, so the inflatable boats are perfect. We have a peaceful large river, just a few hundred metres from us and it's perfect for a paddle with the kids and dog in tow.











The boats are really good value for money and relatively easy to transport around. I'm also pondering getting a small transport trolley to eventually get the sea kayak back out and onto the river as well.


----------



## Drago (9 Jun 2021)

numbnuts said:


> I was on Anglers Afloat


Did they place the camera so the rod holder obscured your wedding vegetables from view?


----------



## numbnuts (9 Jun 2021)

View: https://youtu.be/yg6zPz1wPHg



Both my own design


----------



## Drago (9 Jun 2021)

Nice work Jon, they look very professional. Do they provide much thrust in use?


----------



## numbnuts (10 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Nice work Jon, they look very professional. Do they provide much thrust in use?


Yeah the first V sail is great for down wind sailing, the second one give a bit more across the wind, but without a keel you can flipped so you have to be careful.


----------



## Nigeyy (10 Jun 2021)

Funnily enough I just got two kayaks late last year. They'd been really hard to get but found some on sale (absolutely ghastly colour, but hey that's why they were available and on sale) and then got another 20% off using a promo code so they ended up being ridiculously cheap. I think a lot has to do with how much you think you'll get into it, and where you think you'll be paddling.

I realized I'd never be paddling in the ocean or doing white water rapids or anything above class 0.01 rapids. As such, a cheapie kayak was fine for me. I also realized I'm not going to be passionate about kayaking (Eskimo Roll is a dessert to me) and a gentle paddle down a shallow low current river or a pond or lake was all I wanted to do. I still put some flotation in the kayaks but I have to say for what I want from them, they are perfect. They are definitely not fast, but track pretty well.


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Pretty much the same as me Nigeyy. A gentle exploration of a river, lake or canal is all I desire.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (10 Jun 2021)

numbnuts said:


> Yeah the first V sail is great for down wind sailing, the second one give a bit more across the wind, but without a keel you can flipped so you have to be careful.



I'd considered something similar myself, and I was going to ask about the lack of a centre board when sailing close hauled or on a reach. I wondered about an adjustable skeg, but the position's liable to be wrong anyway. Sailing is a lot about balancing the various forces. My conclusion was that as it's about relaxing pleasure for me, if it got to the point I needed the help, I'd have wrapped up and gone to pub.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (10 Jun 2021)

numbnuts said:


> View: https://youtu.be/yg6zPz1wPHg
> 
> 
> 
> Both my own design




Quite ingenious. I've got this vision of you relaxing enjoying the back wind assisted ride out in to the sea, and then wondering to yourself at the wisdom when you turn to shore and have to paddle through that same headwind back. 

Dylan Winter does some interesting videos of him 'sailing' along rivers in a small boat. He times it with the tide, so he drifts along as far as he can, then waits for the tide to turn to drift back, using a little sail when the wind allows. It all looks very serene, although I imagine steering can be a bit of an issue with the relative lack of water flowing along the rudder.


----------



## Tenacious Sloth (10 Jun 2021)

I have an Old Town Camper 16ft canoe that I used to paddle with the kids on the Rivers Nene and Gt. Ouse.

It’s been parked up unused in my back garden for the last few years as I no longer have a car so no way to get it to the river.

Should really think about selling it as it’s a great canoe and should really be used.


----------



## Milkfloat (10 Jun 2021)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> I have an Old Town Camper 16ft canoe that I used to paddle with the kids on the Rivers Nene and Gt. Ouse.
> 
> It’s been parked up unused in my back garden for the last few years as I no longer have a car so no way to get it to the river.
> 
> Should really think about selling it as it’s a great canoe and should really be used.


I could be interested if you do decide to sell it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (10 Jun 2021)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> I have an Old Town Camper 16ft canoe that I used to paddle with the kids on the Rivers Nene and Gt. Ouse.
> 
> It’s been parked up unused in my back garden for the last few years as I no longer have a car so no way to get it to the river.
> 
> Should really think about selling it as it’s a great canoe and should really be used.


Now is the time - prices have never been higher.


----------



## Dave7 (10 Jun 2021)

For some years I had a SoT and enjoyed paddling around the Anglesey coast.
A small fishing rod allowed me catch Mackerel which I cooked on a BBQ on the beach......lovely.


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

I fancy doing Lands End to Scilly, but that may be a bit ambitious for a paddler of my humble calibre.


----------



## Tenacious Sloth (10 Jun 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Now is the time - prices have never been higher.



Anyone have any idea what a pair price would be for a used Old Own Camper 16 in Royalex Green In good condition?

I seem to remember it was over £1000 new when I bought it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (10 Jun 2021)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> Anyone have any idea what a pair price would be for a used Old Own Camper 16 in Royalex Green In good condition?
> 
> I seem to remember it was over £1000 new when I bought it.


If a genuine Royalex, then you'll be looking not a million miles away from what you paid I expect - Royalex is now a delisted material and has acquired rather mythical status. Create a Song of the Paddle profile and come over and ask the open question - you'll likely get some PMs with offers.


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Is the Song of the Paddle forum of any interest to kayakers?


----------



## Milkfloat (10 Jun 2021)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> Anyone have any idea what a pair price would be for a used Old Own Camper 16 in Royalex Green In good condition?
> 
> I seem to remember it was over £1000 new when I bought it.


If it were in really good condition, with no bumps, no major scrapes and with the wood well looked after I would expect £800. Stored outside, with battle and UV damage with wood needing some work and you can knock £300 off that easily.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (10 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Is the Song of the Paddle forum of any interest to kayakers?


No, not really - you want the UK Rivers Guide one for that mullarky:

https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/


----------



## Stephen Piper (10 Jun 2021)

I have been to SOTP social paddles which also had kayakers joining in. @Andre is a cycle chatter too.


----------



## numbnuts (10 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> I fancy doing Lands End to Scilly, but that may be a bit ambitious for a paddler of my humble calibre.


 
A few years ago some members from Angels Afloat went from Swanage to the Channel Isles for help the hero


----------



## Dave7 (10 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> I fancy doing Lands End to Scilly, but that may be a bit ambitious for a paddler of my humble calibre.


Before you go anywhere make sure you have mastered the knack of climbing back on after a wave knocks you off.


----------



## numbnuts (10 Jun 2021)

numbnuts said:


> A few years ago some members from Angels Afloat went from Swanage to the Channel Isles for help the hero


*Paddle from Swanage to Alderney on a sit-on-top*
https://thepaddlermag.com/2017/02/14/paddle-from-swanage-to-alderney-on-a-sit-on-top/


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> No, not really - you want the UK Rivers Guide one for that mullarky:
> 
> https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/


Thanks Boney (now we are brothers of the paddle I feel that I can first name you  )


----------



## numbnuts (10 Jun 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> No, not really - you want the UK Rivers Guide one for that mullarky:
> 
> https://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/


I use to be on that site,............................. and I just logged on


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Now registered.


----------



## T.M.H.N.E.T (10 Jun 2021)

Need to dig my paddleboard out now I've seen this


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Old kayak sold to a chap from the next village thanks to Mrs D's Felchbook ad.

New kayak ordered.

New one is nothing exciting, but with a 150kg payload capacity ives me a bit more freeboard and room for error than the 120kg of the Riber, as I was perilously close to that one.


----------



## Tenacious Sloth (10 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Old kayak sold to a chap from the next village thanks to Mrs D's Felchbook ad.
> 
> New kayak ordered.
> 
> New one is nothing exciting, but with a 150kg payload capacity ives me a bit more freeboard and room for error than the 120kg of the Riber, as I was perilously close to that one.



Which river will you use it on?


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Ouse, lovatt, Nene, tove, grand Union anal.


----------



## Tenacious Sloth (10 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Ouse, lovatt, Nene, tove, grand Union anal.


I’ve paddled the Ouse and the Nene, but my wife won’t let me try the Grand Union Anal.


----------



## ebikeerwidnes (10 Jun 2021)

Went on ebay based on looking at this thread

Cost of secondhand canoes and stuff it just silly at the moment!!!

Although I am tempted - the idea of a canoe with a sail and daggerboard plus a fishing rod sounds like my idea of heaven
well - almost - add a trailer to tow it to the river by ebike and I'm there!!!!


----------



## ClichéGuevara (10 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Went on ebay based on looking at this thread
> 
> Cost of secondhand canoes and stuff it just silly at the moment!!!
> 
> ...


----------



## The Rover (10 Jun 2021)

Are inflatables allowed….. we’ve used it on the Leeds/Liverpool canal loads and on Ullswater which was awesome. I’ve also got a sit on rigid kayak which has been lent to me on a more or less permanent basis, the owner just wants to use it once a year on a camping trip. 

Only issue is that I’ve been unable to get it into the roof of my VW T5 due to shoulder/collarbone injuries but I’m hoping to give it another go in the next week or so.


----------



## Drago (10 Jun 2021)

Inflateables definitely allowed. If it floats and can be paddled or oared then this is the thread for it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (10 Jun 2021)

ebikeerwidnes said:


> Went on ebay based on looking at this thread
> 
> Cost of secondhand canoes and stuff it just silly at the moment!!!


Seller's market it is!

But, looking on the bright side, the suppliers of boats haven't been profiteering, and have kept prices where they were. Mind you, it took me a year to get a boat from a US supplier, who have more business than they know what to do with.


----------



## kayakerles (10 Jun 2021)

So fun. I used to own 4 kayaks, one Hobie sit-on-top, 5m, two sit-ins, one tandem. All fun in different ways. I’ve paddled in the Pacific Ocean, lakes, gentle rivers. Switzerland, the Caribbean, and around the US. Everything from a 6.4m fiberglass single to a 2.4m blow-molded plastic kayak. All different in what you use them for and skill levels required, but all FUN!!

Here I am with my son, headed out to fun on a lake. Memories!







And my kitty, checking out our boat. 






One way or another... get out on the water if you can. It’s fun! But if you’re on a jet-ski, please watch out for kids, swimmers and kayakers!


----------



## Drago (11 Jun 2021)

Tenacious Sloth said:


> I’ve paddled the Ouse and the Nene, but my wife won’t let me try the Grand Union Anal.


But she might enjoy it! 

The Stoke Bruerne canal museum isn't far from Drago Towers and is well sign posted. Unfortuntely, some wag has carefully doctored all the signs to read "anal musuem". The carncil clean them up and almost immediately they're doctored again. It's gone on so long that the lodals now refer to the canal as the anal.


----------



## Drago (11 Jun 2021)

Just a thought. Do any of you carry radios when kayaking, particularly at sea? Mrs D tends to come to 'watch'when i go for a paddle (ie, sits in a comfy fonding chair reading mills and boon and eating sandwiches) and i use PMR445 for this, but at sea id probably want marine band channels for emergency use.


----------



## chriswoody (11 Jun 2021)

It was something I'd strongly considered and I can't remember why exactly I didn't. I have a memory of needing a license which I couldn't afford at the time? I'm not sure If I'm correct on that. Certainly a good idea though if you do have the pre-requisites. 

What I did have was an emergency bag. So three flares, (One I carried in my Bouancy aid) a paddle float (an inflatable bag that goes around the paddle blade so it acts as an outrigger for you to scramble back on board), a handheld pump, a few tools as well as denzo tape and cut up pieces of milk bottle carton. I also carried spare clothes and food, even on day trips. It's not a comprehensive list, but covers most of what I carried.

Most of the above was because I was in an enclosed cockpit sea kayak, paddling in remote areas with no back up, so I needed to be self sufficient. A sit on top wouldn't need some of the above, especially if your within easy swimming distance of the shore.


----------



## Baldy (11 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Just a thought. Do any of you carry radios when kayaking, particularly at sea? Mrs D tends to come to 'watch'when i go for a paddle (ie, sits in a comfy fonding chair reading mills and boon and eating sandwiches) and i use PMR445 for this, but at sea id probably want marine band channels for emergency use.


Yes I carry a marine band vhf, you do need a licence but you can do the test online these days, so no big deal. I also carry much the same kit as Chriswoody. I can roll my kayak and get back in solo. If I couldn't I'd not be going out on my own.


----------



## numbnuts (11 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Just a thought. Do any of you carry radios when kayaking, particularly at sea? Mrs D tends to come to 'watch'when i go for a paddle (ie, sits in a comfy fonding chair reading mills and boon and eating sandwiches) and i use PMR445 for this, but at sea id probably want marine band channels for emergency use.


Standard Horizon HX280E - call sign Yakdiver


----------



## Drago (11 Jun 2021)

Well, you need a licence to use marine band, but a person in distress does not require a licence to use any frequency. If you're only using it to monitor and not transmit, except in the case of a distress call, youre covered. Im my case Im a ham and have a legal 2M set, and I keep channel 16 programmed in for emergencies.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (11 Jun 2021)

We also use the latest technology. Can't be too safe on the mean streams of the Oxford Canal. Here we are:

https://images.app.goo.gl/7t3KPfLsPqjX3jWg6


----------



## ClichéGuevara (11 Jun 2021)




----------



## simongt (11 Jun 2021)

Used to have a touring kayak, but eventually sold it because - a - the only local club was only interested in playboat type kayaks or canoes, b - it's not wise to go river paddling solo, c - 90% + of rivers in England are privately owned , thus not accessible.


----------



## numbnuts (11 Jun 2021)

simongt said:


> Used to have a touring kayak, but eventually sold it because - a - the only local club was only interested in playboat type kayaks or canoes, b - it's not wise to go river paddling solo, c - 90% + of rivers in England are privately owned , thus not accessible.


Yes the two main rivers I have are the Itchen and the Test, some small parts of the Itchen you can paddle, but the Test is a big NO NO


----------



## Baldy (11 Jun 2021)

That's why I stick to the sea.


----------



## Stephen Piper (11 Jun 2021)

I have free access to three local waterways: The Tidal Stour from Sandwich to Fordwich (about 20 miles), Medway estuary up to Allington, River Rother to Bodiam, which is classed as tidal but there is a flood control and lock at Scotts Float, which makes most of the river a still water. and also the Royal military canal from West Hythe to Rye (and beyond). Membership of the BCU gives access to more of the Medway. And the local council control the Hythe section of the RM Canal, for which they demand you buy a licence to gain access. There are also other drainage waterways on the Marsh which are fun to explore. I treat all waterways with great respect as a steep bramble lined bank does not offer a quick exit from the water should you find yourself unable to self rescue after a capsize.


----------



## Drago (11 Jun 2021)

Stuff clubs. Apart from playing with my band, I don't need to chummy up to others to do what I want to do.

Fortunately, I too have a reasonable selection of local waterways, a watersport centre, and 4 local watersport lakes, so there is no shortage of opportunity for a casual paddle up my end.


----------



## Drago (11 Jun 2021)

The delightful Mrs D has bought me some new wetsuit boots and gloves from Decathlon.


----------



## Drago (13 Jun 2021)

Started work today on building the cradle to hang the yak from the garage roof. I need some more wood, which I will pick up on wednesday, bitmits coming along well.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (13 Jun 2021)

I have a cunning plan.

DIY packraft. That is all. Looks like fun 

ETA
Btw Drago, takes me ages to get wood these days too. Don't feel bad about it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (16 Jun 2021)

The lovely Mrs Bonefish pretending to do her bit yesterday in 17-6 of kevlar & carbon loveliness.

She was occasionally reminded that you have to actually put the paddle in the feckin' water


----------



## Stephen Piper (16 Jun 2021)

Azolla weed (never heard of it before), has made large stretches of the local canal unusable. People buy this invasive weed to use in their fish ponds and it is farmed for it's many useful properties, makes a great compost. I must have paddled through millions of quids worth of it, until I gave up and resorted to pulling it on the trolley along the footpath.


----------



## Drago (16 Jun 2021)

I've bought a new trolley that mounts in the scupper holes. That means I can invert it, mount it on thw scupper holes behind the seat and take it with me. Should make portage around locks a bit easier.

Getting impatient now waiting for my new ride.


----------



## numbnuts (16 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> I've bought a new *trolley that mounts in the scupper holes*. That means I can invert it, mount it on thw scupper holes behind the seat and take it with me. Should make portage around locks a bit easier.
> 
> Getting impatient now waiting for my new ride.


 
Sad tiding sorry, those scupper hole trolley leads to premature wear on the inside of the holes and can cause leaks in time.......how long it will take is another matter.


----------



## Drago (16 Jun 2021)

Thanks for the heads-up Jon. I hall keep a _very_ close eye on that.

As it happens, the new yak is only 21kg, which is piffling for an Adonis like myself. It may be that if I can get a good grip that isn't awkward I may not use it at all for portage.


----------



## Drago (22 Jun 2021)

Good news! My new yak has been dispatched, sjould be here in a day or so.


----------



## Drago (23 Jun 2021)

And British Canoeing membership renewed so I have a waterways licence.


----------



## Drago (24 Jun 2021)

New yak arrived and safely stashed in the rack I made. Fortunately I was generous with the size because its larger than the dimensions listed on their website.

Bit of a busy weekend as its Mini D's 10th birthday, so Ive pencilled in next wednesday for an inaugural paddle.


----------



## kayakerles (28 Jun 2021)

Looking forward to hearing you had a blast, Drago. Pics too. Nothing like the feeling of getting out on the water, one way or another. I always preferred a nice big lake with an island to set as my destination. Lazy rivers were fun too. Never tried rapids, but I bet I would have liked it. I previously had a Hobie SOT 14-footer, a couple of 8-foot sit ins for me and the Mrs. and a giant purple blow-molded plastic kayak we called “Moby Grape.” I rented a 21-foot single fiberglass ocean kayak to papal Lake Interlochen in Switzerland once. That thing was a beauty and cut through the water like a knife. But those are so expensive, never felt the need for a fiberglass one. All said, have a great time! keep us posted on your adventures.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (28 Jun 2021)

Real men have composite boats you know 

...mainly because they're getting older and arthritis will take a toll


----------



## kayakerles (28 Jun 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Real men have composite boats you know
> 
> ...mainly because they're getting older and arthritis will take a toll


The great thing about the blow-molded plastic kayaks was they were inexpensive, (8' for $300 when I bought them) and indestructible. When we would paddle out in the Winter, we would power-paddle them right up onto a concrete boat ramp and not hurt them. We didn't even have to get our feet wet. Same for launching...put it low on the ramp by the water and “scootch it” down until you were floating. Off you go. The bottoms didn't hold their shape as well as fiberglass ones, but they were certainly fun little toy boats. Scootching not recommended for nicer kayaks! Also fun for grandkids to splash around in when filled with water on land. Multipurpose vehicle!


----------



## Bonefish Blues (28 Jun 2021)

kayakerles said:


> The great thing about the blow-molded plastic kayaks was they were inexpensive, (8' for $300 when I bought them) and indestructible. When we would paddle out in the Winter, we would power-paddle them right up onto a concrete boat ramp and not hurt them. We didn't even have to get our feet wet. Same for launching...put it low on the ramp by the water and “scootch it” down until you were floating. Off you go. The bottoms didn't hold their shape as well as fiberglass ones, but they were certainly fun little toy boats. Scootching not recommended for nicer kayaks! Also fun for grandkids to splash around in when filled with water on land. Multipurpose vehicle!


I made sure I put some scratches on ours first time out  It's only a boat!


----------



## MichaelW2 (28 Jun 2021)

Oru seem to have expanded their lineup of origami corrugated plastic flatpacking canoes and kayaks. This solves the " How do I get my boat to the water" problem nicely.


----------



## kayakerles (29 Jun 2021)

By the time I put mine together, it would probably look like a swan!


----------



## Drago (29 Jun 2021)

kayakerles said:


> The great thing about the blow-molded plastic kayaks was they were inexpensive, (8' for $300 when I bought them) and indestructible. When we would paddle out in the Winter, we would power-paddle them right up onto a concrete boat ramp and not hurt them. We didn't even have to get our feet wet. Same for launching...put it low on the ramp by the water and “scootch it” down until you were floating. Off you go. The bottoms didn't hold their shape as well as fiberglass ones, but they were certainly fun little toy boats. Scootching not recommended for nicer kayaks! Also fun for grandkids to splash around in when filled with water on land. Multipurpose vehicle!


Indeedy, and my rotomoulded yak weighs only 21kg, so its very easy to manhandle onto the car roof or into storage at home.

If you manage to damage or deform one - which takes some doing - they'll usually ping back into shape on their own if left in the warm sun.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (29 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> Indeedy, and my rotomoulded yak weighs only 21kg, so its very easy to manhandle onto the car roof or into storage at home.
> 
> If you manage to damage or deform one - which takes some doing - they'll usually ping back into shape on their own if left in the warm sun.


Remarkably, we're even lighter than that - and can carry 4, their luggage, and a couple of bullocks.

(I made some of that up, but not the bit about the weight )


----------



## Drago (29 Jun 2021)

Right, all set for a paddle tomorrow. I cannae wait.


----------



## kayakerles (30 Jun 2021)

Have a good test run, pics if possible, but most of all have fun, be safe.


----------



## Drago (30 Jun 2021)

No go today, my oppo isn't feeling well. Could go on my own but i was loojing forward to seeing him, so we've resheduled. 

Of course, I didn't find out until Id lugged the thing out of the rack where it lives and almost had it on the roof of the car!


----------



## Drago (30 Jun 2021)

And back to bed it goes.


----------



## The Rover (30 Jun 2021)

We went SUP last weekend, well me and the boy, the wife prefers Kayak.
Its at a local activity centre, £12 for an hour, all kit included.
I “ may “ have pushed the boy in during a collision although I went in not long after.

Great fun and very lucky to have it so close to us.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Jun 2021)

Now SUPing I don't 'get', I have to confess


----------



## numbnuts (30 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> And back to bed it goes.
> 
> View attachment 596590


 
Sorry to be a pain, but the best way to store plastic kayaks is on their sides


----------



## Drago (30 Jun 2021)

Indeed, but im 6'4" and need to be able to walk under it which precludes that. Its well supported at 3 points and never gets warm where its stashed, somim reasonably happy.

And youre very polite John - youre one of the forum's few true gentleman, and would never be a pain.


----------



## numbnuts (30 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> And youre very polite John - youre one of the forum's few true gentleman, and would never be a pain.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Jun 2021)

Get a room the pair of you


----------



## Drago (30 Jun 2021)

Well, I am a big fan of Jon's work. Tales From Topographic Oceans is a masterpiece.


----------



## sheddy (30 Jun 2021)

Does anyone have a 13 foot SOT ?
I guess they're fairly swift.


----------



## numbnuts (30 Jun 2021)

sheddy said:


> Does anyone have a 13 foot SOT ?
> I guess they're fairly swift.


Yes, mine is 13 foot Ocean Kayak Prowler 13.
The longer the kayak the straighter it travels, some smaller ones in "open water" are a pain in the backside, yes you can put a rudder on them, but that does not make you a better paddler, and that's a fact


----------



## kayakerles (30 Jun 2021)

sheddy said:


> Does anyone have a 13 foot SOT ?
> I guess they're fairly swift.


About 20 years ago I had an early day Hobie SOT that I believe was 14 feet. It did not have as much buoyancy as most SOT kayaks do today, but it was narrow and cut the water like a knife. I was only 160 pounds at that time, so it was perfect. It had a small bit of storage on the rear end and that was about it. I loved that kayak. Of course it would not turn nearly as easily as one of my smaller 8 foot kayaks, But it could cover distance so easily. It rode pretty low to the water, so it was a wt ride, but could really move. It seems like today they want to make kayaks with enough buoyancy to support a very heavy paddler. That is fine, but it winds up making the kayaks wider and not as aquadynamic. A friend of mine just bought a Hobie kayak with the propellers underneath it, fishing rig, and all that. You could probably drive a car onto one of those and it would be stable. I think the kayak alone weighs something like 65 pounds. But that is a completely different animal. I will see what he says once he has used it for a bit and post something on it here. But light weight long kayaks are really fun. I think the simpler the better.


----------



## kayakerles (30 Jun 2021)

Drago said:


> And back to bed it goes.
> 
> View attachment 596590


Then story to be continued. We await with anticipation sharing your journey with you.


----------



## kayakerles (30 Jun 2021)

numbnuts said:


> Yes, mine is 13 foot Ocean Kayak Prowler 13.
> The longer the kayak the straighter it travels, some smaller ones in "open water" are a pain in the backside, yes you can put a rudder on them, but that does not make you a better paddler, and that's a fact


So true. A friend of mine and I rented some 21 foot single kayaks, not SOT‘s, but the kind you get into, in Switzerland. He had never kayaked before and I had for a long time. So he got the fiberglass one which also had a rudder on it, mine did not. Wow, talk about making wide turns! But I still had a blast anyway and still don’t prefer having a rudder. Silly, but it feels like cheating. On the way back in we were paddling into a light breeze and water was coming over the decks of both of our kayaks. Talk about cold water! Lake Interlochen is a glacier fed lake. That was some cold water! But such fun. And kayaking is 100% non-polluting. Clean fun.


----------



## kayakerles (30 Jun 2021)

The Rover said:


> We went SUP last weekend, well me and the boy, the wife prefers Kayak.
> Its at a local activity centre, £12 for an hour, all kit included.
> I “ may “ have pushed the boy in during a collision although I went in not long after.
> 
> ...


It looks like fun, and I would love to try it sometime. Glad you and your son had a blast. I grew up surfing waves on a 6‘1“ surfboard in New Jersey, here in the Sstates. I love speed and surfing fit that ticket. Not sure I would like SUPing as much, but anything on the water HAS to be fun. My wife loves kayaking too, but doesn't want to go “in” so SUPs would not appeal to her. To each his or her own choice I suppose. Fun pictures, keep them coming!


----------



## numbnuts (1 Jul 2021)

The best thing I found on a sea kayak was a adjustable drop down skeg, had one on my Point 65 Sea Cruiser, 17'4 and cut through the water like a knife.


----------



## Baldy (1 Jul 2021)

Kayaking on Loch Lomond last year.I 11https://youtu.be/oh_QnY3BAfU Well if I don't plug it no one will.


----------



## numbnuts (1 Jul 2021)

Nice 

View: https://youtu.be/oh_QnY3BAfU


----------



## Drago (1 Jul 2021)

numbnuts said:


> Nice
> 
> View: https://youtu.be/oh_QnY3BAfU



Ah, clearly the inspiration behind Close to the Edge.


----------



## Baldy (1 Jul 2021)

Close to the edge?


----------



## numbnuts (1 Jul 2021)

Baldy said:


> Close to the edge?



View: https://youtu.be/UBmUX74aME0
@Drago thinks I'm Jon Anderson from the Group Yes, but in fact I'm Richard Anderson has-been


----------



## sheddy (2 Jul 2021)

Today’s leisurely paddle to the pub saw ducks, duckings, swans, cygnets, swifts, rooks, warblers, a single buzzard and heron.


----------



## Drago (2 Jul 2021)

> View attachment 596810



Thats all the proof I need!


----------



## MrGrumpy (3 Jul 2021)

Went sailing for the first time with my neighbours. They share a boat , it was ace . Racing around the bridges on Wed night. Hope to get an invite again !


----------



## kayakerles (5 Jul 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> View attachment 597091
> 
> 
> View attachment 597092
> ...


Yes, sailing is one of the most enjoyable sports there is, in my opinion. Here is a pic of the Mrs. and I on our 16.5 foot Catalina pulling away from a friend on his 23 foot sailboat. When there are light winds, the smaller sailboat win! This was when we lived in Oklahoma. We sailed on an 89,000 square-foot lake called Lake Texoma. I think smaller boats are the most fun. They are more responsive and challenging to sail. My keel was a retractable piece of fiberglass, where are my friend's keel was 600 pounds of lead. On our boat, our bodies serve as ballast. I have also sailed a 21 foot boat in the Pacific ocean without a motor. Owned three little sailboats in my life… A 14 foot Daysailer, the 16.5 Catalina below, and a 16 foot cat boat.






Here is a pic of my daughter and I on our cat boat in a covered slip. Note the folding mast. Quite a cool feature. We only kept it in a slip for one year.Then we decided to just put down a concrete pad in our backyard and constructed an aluminum carport over it.






Sailing is great. Go every chance you get!


----------



## Colin Grigson (6 Jul 2021)

My children are out on the water at least 4 x per week training and racing at the weekends when possible … agree with ‘kayakerie’ above - sailing’s great


----------



## MrGrumpy (6 Jul 2021)

Really fancy joining the sailing club. Think my youngest would enjoy it.


----------



## Bonefish Blues (6 Jul 2021)

We're sticking our daughter in Sea Scouts so she can learn.


----------



## Milkfloat (6 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> We're sticking our daughter in Sea Scouts so she can learn.


A good choice, she will get a good grounding in all types of craft. The Sea Scouts will only be able to take her so far, if she gets really keen and wants to specialise in a particular craft then she would need to also join a club. Sea Scouts also do a large part of what normal ‘mud scouts’ do as well, so it is not every week spent on the water. Depending on the group, waiting lists can be long, our Beavers have a 3 to 4 year waiting list, that drops to about 18 months at Scout age.


----------



## kayakerles (6 Jul 2021)

Colin Grigson said:


> My children are out on the water at least 4 x per week training and racing at the weekends when possible … agree with ‘kayakerie’ above - sailing’s great
> View attachment 597578
> 
> 
> ...


Great looking sailing family you're bringing up there, Colin! I would love to have that boat in the top 2 pics. I hope your kids continue to have a blast. Starting young they are likely to stick with sailing for life, whether competitively or not. How great.


----------



## kayakerles (6 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> Right, all set for a paddle tomorrow. I cannae wait.


Drago, did you get your new kayak wet yet? Looking forward to your update.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (6 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> We're sticking our daughter in Sea Scouts so she can learn.


----------



## Drago (6 Jul 2021)

kayakerles said:


> Drago, did you get your new kayak wet yet? Looking forward to your update.


Sadly, no. Not been feeling brilliant. Soon as I improve a bit ill be out on the water with my box brownie.


----------



## Oldhippy (6 Jul 2021)

Love canoeing but not done so for ages. Aldi got inflatable ones in on Sunday but £40 seems very cheap! Other camping outdoor stuff from there has proved reliable however so might chance it.


----------



## kayakerles (7 Jul 2021)

Drago said:


> Sadly, no. Not been feeling brilliant. Soon as I improve a bit ill be out on the water with my box brownie.


Okay, 100% for you soon... the water will be there. 👍


----------



## Bonefish Blues (8 Jul 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Love canoeing but not done so for ages. Aldi got inflatable ones in on Sunday but £40 seems very cheap! Other camping outdoor stuff from there has proved reliable however so might chance it.


Better than nowt, but you can't get enough pressure into it to make it sufficiently rigid for effective paddling.


----------



## Oldhippy (8 Jul 2021)

That was my concern with an inflatable. On the upside it will fit on the bike trailer. I don't have storage space for a rigid canoe sadly.


----------



## numbnuts (8 Jul 2021)

Oldhippy said:


> Love canoeing but not done so for ages. Aldi got inflatable ones in on Sunday but £40 seems very cheap! Other camping outdoor stuff from there has proved reliable however so might chance it.


Please don't try putting it in the sea


Oldhippy said:


> That was my concern with an inflatable. On the upside it will fit on the bike trailer. I don't have storage space for a rigid canoe sadly.


Live in a flat here, so I have to rent a garage


----------



## Drago (8 Jul 2021)

The only inflatables worth the bother are the ones with dropstich construction. They inflate to be completely rigid. The downside is that you won't find one from the Middle at Lidl for a tenner.

https://bluewavekayaks.com/glider-drop-stitch-single-inflatable-kayak-red.html


----------



## MrGrumpy (13 Jul 2021)

Well up here on the shores of Loch Ness and I think I shall be purchasing a kayak. Even just a blow up one for calm waters will do for now.


Although it bloody deep


----------



## MrGrumpy (19 Jul 2021)

Soooooo sit on kayak or sit in ?


----------



## Drago (20 Jul 2021)

Depnds on what you want, any mobility issues, what youre using it for, all sorts of stuff.


----------



## MrGrumpy (20 Jul 2021)

My sons bought one for fishing. However I’m more about leisure . Can you get double ones ?


----------



## numbnuts (20 Jul 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> My sons bought one for fishing. However I’m more about leisure . Can you get double ones ?


Yes, but they are heavy....Oh there are two of you


----------



## Bonefish Blues (20 Jul 2021)

numbnuts said:


> Yes, but they are heavy....Oh there are two of you


Old paddling proverb it say. The number of times you paddle is directly proportional to the weight of your canoe.

True that.


----------



## MichaelW2 (20 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Now SUPing I don't 'get', I have to confess


The UK excels at Sitting Down sports. Anytime the athlete has to stand, those rascally Continentals, heavily sponsored Yanks or naturally quick African chaps have home advantage. We didnt build an empire standing on our own two feet.


----------



## ClichéGuevara (20 Jul 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Old paddling proverb it say. The number of times you paddle is directly proportional to the weight of your canoe.
> 
> True that.



Ah, but on my first go at kayaking, the instructor under-estimated my weight, and I quickly developed the skill of paddling underwater when it submerged, so the 'lighter' boat meant a lot more paddling for me.


----------



## Deafie (12 Aug 2021)

I just completed the 4 part kayaking basics course at Manhattan Kayak Company and am looking forward to exploring the waterways around here. Damn it's expensive though!!! Storage is the issue, I am looking at folding kayaks but not sure if they are worth the fuss


----------



## Bonefish Blues (12 Aug 2021)

Deafie said:


> I just completed the 4 part kayaking basics course at Manhattan Kayak Company and am looking forward to exploring the waterways around here. Damn it's expensive though!!! Storage is the issue, I am looking at folding kayaks but not sure if they are worth the fuss


Look at dropstitch inflatables, perhaps? Really very good indeed these days.


----------



## Deafie (12 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> Look at dropstitch inflatables, perhaps? Really very good indeed these days.


Will do. thanks


----------



## numbnuts (12 Aug 2021)

View: https://youtu.be/7erIBjX-epA



My sister and brother-in-law have bought this one, I'm dead against inflatables in the sea, but they say it is fantastic and nothing like the old ones at all.


----------



## MrGrumpy (12 Aug 2021)

Deafie said:


> I just completed the 4 part kayaking basics course at Manhattan Kayak Company and am looking forward to exploring the waterways around here. Damn it's expensive though!!! Storage is the issue, I am looking at folding kayaks but not sure if they are worth the fuss


How much was the course ?


----------



## chriswoody (12 Aug 2021)

numbnuts said:


> View: https://youtu.be/7erIBjX-epA
> 
> 
> 
> My sister and brother-in-law have bought this one, I'm dead against inflatables in the sea, but they say it is fantastic and nothing like the old ones at all.





The itiwit 3 is a fantastic inflatable kayak, solidly built and great value for money. The whole design is well thought out and the construction is really solid.

As you rightly say though, I really wouldn't be thinking of taking one too sea in the UK, unless it's a dead calm day and you have timed it perfectly for slack water and even then I really wouldn't recommend it. As can be see in the video thumbnail, the gunwhales are really high and as a consequence it's really susceptible to wind, along with a lot of rocker, meaning it handles like a cheap canoe more than a kayak. The width across the gunwhales is also quite large, so I struggle to get a good efficient paddle stroke in.

With taken the middle seat out of ours and whilst I do use my old sea kayak paddles, I do think it would be better suited to a good open canoe paddle. We use ours for messing around on lakes and the calm river by us.


----------



## presta (12 Aug 2021)

My kayak has been collecting dust in the garage for 33 years. I stopped paddling when my father died because I didn't have the time with all the work, and then never went back. I couldn't keep up with the others, even the children, so someone who got the short straw would have to hang back wet nursing me whilst the rest of the club disappeared into a dot on the horizon.


----------



## Deafie (12 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> How much was the course ?


The course was $302 with tax and tip which is reasonable, I feel. It's the long term costs that pucker me up. $200 a month to store a boat plus the cost of all the gear, then if I become a member, want to join scheduled trips etc etc. If it was an all in type of hobby I am sure that it is worth it but I would only be doing it now and then due to other commitments so the cost per hour on the water seem a little steep.

I am very cheap!


----------



## Milkfloat (12 Aug 2021)

$200 a month to stores a kayak/canoe, that is ridiculous. My club is £20 a year for your first boat and £15 each after. Then again, my club is not in Manhattan.


----------



## MasterDabber (14 Aug 2021)

I've just come across this thread so thought I'd pop in and say "hello".
I used to race kayaks quite seriously back in my early teens through to my early 20's. Both sprint and long distance. I raced in the UK and Europe.
I would do K1 ,K2 and K4
During the winter closed season I would occasionaly do some slaloms for fun. This was all back in the 60's.

It was great fun but hard work trying to train and hold down a job.
I've still got my last sprint K1. A Struer Hunter .A beautiful wood veneer piece of art. Weighed next to nothing, quite long, very narrow and unstable. You sat high up in it. Wooden paddles. No carbon fibre in those days.
https://www.struerkajak.com/products/k1-racing-hunter-1965-1968

I've also got an old slalom kayak plus a 3 metere fun boat. None of them used at the moment although I keep getting tempted. Not sure if I'd stay upright in the K1 though. Sorry for the ramble.


----------



## MrGrumpy (30 Aug 2021)

Show me your storage solutions for kayaks? Sons one is f….. huge . Was going to build a rack on the garden fence but tells me it might get stolen. So looks like it’s the garage . Was thinking of something on wheels so it can be moved around. Neighbour also gave me a hoist but it’s too heavy IMO abs that makes me deeply uncomfortable swinging that above head height !


----------



## Bonefish Blues (30 Aug 2021)

A couple of big, secure hooks in two convenient joists plus a loop F&R on the kayak, lift one end at a time is about as secure and low-tech as it needs be.


----------



## MasterDabber (30 Aug 2021)

Bonefish Blues said:


> A couple of big, secure hooks in two convenient joists plus a loop F&R on the kayak, lift one end at a time is about as secure and low-tech as it needs be.


That's pretty much what I do.


----------



## kayakerles (30 Aug 2021)

Deafie said:


> I just completed the 4 part kayaking basics course at Manhattan Kayak Company and am looking forward to exploring the waterways around here. Damn it's expensive though!!! Storage is the issue, I am looking at folding kayaks but not sure if they are worth the fuss


Greetings, fellow Manhattanite @deafie. I grew up on the Lower East Side, with all of my friends mostly living in Chelsea. I have been out of NYC for a long time now, and live right outside of Washington DC. I have owned four kayaks, (2 sit-in 8 foot kayaks, 1 14-foot tandem kayak, and 1 14- foot sit on top Hobie). But this was all when I was living near a lake in Oklahoma. My other water toys there were a 16 foot sailboat, and 2 windsurfers. All of these toys were stored for free in my backyard.

Suggestion: now that you are taking kayaking courses, no doubt you are totally psyched to get into the sport. However, our interests change. My suggestion is to do yourself a favor and rent a kayak for yourself 10 times before you commit to buying anything and worrying about storage, paying for storage in Manhattan, etc. You may be surprised to find it will take you a whole year before you will rent a kayak 10 times. Halfway through that timeframe you may decide you are happy enough with simply renting kayaks now and then instead of paying the hassle of owning one. You may find that storage places want to charge you by the year. In which case he will be paying for many months of the year when you will not kayak at all. Money thrown away. If you manage to go paddling 10 times in a couple of months and you are sure you want to do this on a regular basis, then you can start thinking seriously about ownership.

We have done the same thing with our automobile. Realizing that in the Washington DC area, like New York, you don’t necessarily need to own an automobile to be able to drive one if and when you want to. We have been without a vehicle now for over five years and don’t even miss it. We have Uber which we can use in a pinch, as well as a Zip car membership, and a regular hertz car rental place for when we need a vehicle for vacations. Why owned and pay upkeep, parts, taxes, etc., when you have a good public transportation? If I need a car, it is easy to get one, and it is usually a brand new vehicle with no worries. Problem solved!

Here are my wife and I twenty-one years ago on Lake Texoma back in Oklahoma. Good times. Notice the red sticker on my kayak? Even kayaks are considered boats in Oklahoma, They needed to be registered and taxed accordingly. Another thing you may have to consider in the state of New York. It may really not be worth the hassle in NYC, so much cheaper to just rent them now and then, hassle free. It could be quite a long time, YEARS, before you pay as much for rentals to equal the cost of owning one and storing it, paying registration fees, taxes, etc. whatever you decide, have fun paddling! It is such a relaxing sport. Great fun.


----------



## Milkfloat (30 Aug 2021)

MrGrumpy said:


> Show me your storage solutions for kayaks? Sons one is f….. huge . Was going to build a rack on the garden fence but tells me it might get stolen. So looks like it’s the garage . Was thinking of something on wheels so it can be moved around. Neighbour also gave me a hoist but it’s too heavy IMO abs that makes me deeply uncomfortable swinging that above head height !


I have my best kayak on a hoist in the garage, I can take a photo if you want. I keep the other 3 on a home made rack in the garden, it has a sloping ply roof and the whole thing is covered by a tarp. It is stored down the side of the house with a hidden gate that looks like the normal run of fence that I use for access.


----------



## MrGrumpy (30 Aug 2021)

I’ve got the hoist just not sure the joists run in my favour.


----------



## Baldy (30 Aug 2021)

The whitewater kayak is stood on end just out of shot to the left.


----------



## Drago (31 Aug 2021)

Mine is suspended in the garage roof in a cradle made from seatbelt webbing.


----------



## Stephen Piper (31 Aug 2021)

I use washing line pulleys to help hoist mine to the ceiling.


----------



## Drago (1 Sep 2021)

@numbnuts keeps his tethered at the jetty in his back garden.


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (24 Oct 2021)

An old photo, well May 2021

Aire & Calder Navigation Canal, by Kings Road Lock
(bottom of Foxholes Lane)
Altofts
(north-east of) Wakefield

I didn't ask if he was tow(_path_)-starting it, or whether it had a water-leak............








Looking towards my position, from the Lock
https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2974256


----------



## Richard A Thackeray (27 Nov 2022)

Open Day, next weekend

I pass this every working day, be it along the road, or via the (Aire & Calder Navigation) towpath & river (Calder) bank

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-63755670


----------



## Jameshow (27 Nov 2022)

Richard A Thackeray said:


> Open Day, next weekend
> 
> I pass this every working day, be it along the road, or via the (Aire & Calder Navigation) towpath & river (Calder) bank
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-63755670



Looks good, hope to go if free, might ride over via canal obviously!!


----------



## Jameshow (27 Nov 2022)

I fancy building one of these this winter! 

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthr...-two-sheet-rowboat-design-quot-Big-Guide-quot


----------

