# Judder Judder, how can I stop the front juddering under braking?



## flyingelephant (18 Oct 2008)

My cross bike is almost uncontrolable under front wheel braking. Toed in the front brakes, cleaned the rim, changed to frog legs, but still, I can hardly touch the brakes without loosing it. Help! How many other tricks are there to stop the juddering?


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## RedBike (18 Oct 2008)

Tighten the headset?


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## dan_bo (18 Oct 2008)

new fork?


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## RedBike (18 Oct 2008)

You could also try changing the length of the straddle wire. No idea why this helps but it seems to.


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## bonk man (18 Oct 2008)

Yeh, check the headset, my Van Nicholas was all over the place and juddery with a slightly lose headset.


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## kyuss (18 Oct 2008)

What wheels are you using? I had a similar problem on my old carbon frame when using Xero XCR-1. I could visibly see the fork vibrating back and forward under braking. Put my old mavics on and the problem disappeared.


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## Miz (29 Oct 2008)

What kind of cable hanger are you using ?

I experienced very bad judder with my carbon forks when I used a headset/steerer tube spacer mounted one.

Almost no/minimal judder since I changed the cable hanger to one that mounts at the fork crown.

I believe it's something to do with the length of the cable (i.e. too much) between the hanger and the straddle cable and/or where the straddle cable is fixed to the canti arms.
When the forks flex, the movement between these points changes and amplifies the braking - on/off effect, causing major judder.

I bought the crown mounted cable hanger at my lbs (brand is KF)
It's like a 6cm stalk that bolts through a hole on the centre of the fork crown (where the fork legs meet in the middle / where a road bike caliper brakes are bolted through).

Also, do all the tips mentioned above;- 
Ensure headset is not lose.
Brakes shoes and rims are clean/not overly worn or rough and the brake shoes are toed in correctly.


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## Miz (30 Oct 2008)

Hello again
Just looked up where I got the fork crown cable hanger advice from and thought I'd post the link on here for anyone who may be interested. 

http://www.forum.3peakscyclocross.org.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=299&KW=judder&PN=0&TPN=1


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## Pottsy (30 Oct 2008)

Heard a lot of this before about Specialized TriCross's. Is it one of these? If so it might be worth a search through the forum archives.


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## New Horizon (13 Nov 2008)

Carbon forks + cantilever brakes seems to lead to varying degrees of brake judder, as many Specialized Tricross owners found, and as I have found on my Van Nicholas. Its not as though manufacturers are not aware of this problem, yet they keep selling a potentially lethal combination. When it happens its extremely rapid and very frightening and I can see my carbon fork wobbling like a jelly. The accepted damage limitation measures seem to be as mentioned above ie get a fork crown cable hanger (Kona KF from dotbike in UK) and move to soft pads, ideally salmon Kool Stop MTB Pad V-type (also from dotbike). I'm in the process of doing just this so will report back when done.


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## mabeleliza (20 Nov 2008)

Hi, new to forum so excuse me if I dont keep to any protocols that may exist.

Interested to know if any of the above solved the original problem? Have a Specialized Tri-Cross and having just changed to a new pair of Shimano R550 Cantis am having the same problem.

Thanks,


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## Dave5N (20 Nov 2008)

Not convinced about the carbon fork explanation. We have two cross bikes with these no probs, as do most riders these days.

Check the headset, but also check the canti arms are mounted correctly and the wheel cones aren't loose.

TBH you'd have to see it to diagnose it, hard to find the right cause over the internet.


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## jpembroke (21 Nov 2008)

mabeleliza said:


> Hi, new to forum so excuse me if I dont keep to any protocols that may exist.
> 
> Interested to know if any of the above solved the original problem? Have a Specialized Tri-Cross and having just changed to a new pair of Shimano R550 Cantis am having the same problem.
> 
> Thanks,



The Tricross is a bit of a notorious judderer. Google it for more info. Consensus of opinion seems to point to the forks as the culprit. 

I too have a juddering issue on my 'cross bike. I recently changed my brakes from low profile Tektro Oryx to wide profile Tektro 520s. This has seen a marked improvement in terms of the juddering but I'm not sure if the stopping power is as good now. Anyway, changing to wide profile brakes does seem to improve things so may be worth a go. Warning though, there is a bit of an art to setting them up, especially those with peg mounted brake block e.g. Empella Frogglegs.


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## RedBike (21 Nov 2008)

I've got Specialised 'fat' carbon fork to my new Paul Milnes cross bike. It juddered like mad the first time I took it out. 

Tightening the headset, setting the brakes to toe-in etc didn't do anything but having the straddle wire really long worked a treat.


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## RedBike (23 Nov 2008)

Forget all about the lack of 'judder'. They judder terribly in the wet!


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## mabeleliza (3 Dec 2008)

The worst of the juddering seems to have subsided after 50 miles or so but my god that squeal in the wet - I'll try toe-ing them in over the weekend.


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## brodhurste (4 Jan 2009)

I bought a Tricross and also read loads about the front juddering - for this reason I refused to accept the 2009 model with cantis, I asked the shop to put Tektro mini-Vs which totally solved the problem - it was juddering on the test ride. Ditch the cantis, get Vs.


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## jpembroke (5 Jan 2009)

Tried Mini Vs and ditched them after a coupe of rides: no modulation and they have to be run so close to the rim that a) they rub if the rim is even slightly out of true,  you have to undo the cable to get the wheel out, and c) they have very little mud clearance so useless for racing. A good set of cantis is the only sensible answer for most cyclocrossers.


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## RedBike (5 Jan 2009)

To stop the bike juddering you need to set the yoke as high as possible. 

I wish I fully understood what is going on but it's all to do with resonance and the amount of cable between the hanger and the yoke.


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## Wigsie (6 Jan 2009)

Interesting post guys, I am pretty close to chosing a new bike and the tricross was very high up my shortlist, I will be getting the largest framesize and had heard tales of fork judder in the larger sizes but nothing to this magnitude.

I still like the tricross but confused as to whether the problem is fixable now, if so how easy is it to fix? why dont the LBS that recommend this bike tell you about it, or help you fix it before you purchase?


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## jpembroke (6 Jan 2009)

RedBike said:


> To stop the bike juddering you need to set the yoke as high as possible.
> 
> I wish I fully understood what is going on but it's all to do with resonance and the amount of cable between the hanger and the yoke.



It's all to do with mechanical advantage. When the yoke is set higher modulation increases but braking power decreases. When you lower the yoke the opposite happens. So, if you have a the yoke set close to the wheel you will have a more powerful - yet on/off - brake that is more likely to result in judder.


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## brodhurste (8 Jan 2009)

I really, really like my tricross - I don't have much experience of CX, have been 15 years an MTBer - very pleasantly suprised by excellent ride of the Tricross. Fork really soaks up the bumps. I agree with previous post about mini-Vs being a pain to remove tyre etc but I prefer this to brake judder. Grab one and go for a test ride - if it judders ask the shop for a solution and don't let them fob you off.


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## New Horizon (20 Jan 2009)

New Horizon said:


> Carbon forks + cantilever brakes seems to lead to varying degrees of brake judder, as many Specialized Tricross owners found, and as I have found on my Van Nicholas. Its not as though manufacturers are not aware of this problem, yet they keep selling a potentially lethal combination. When it happens its extremely rapid and very frightening and I can see my carbon fork wobbling like a jelly. The accepted damage limitation measures seem to be as mentioned above ie get a fork crown cable hanger (Kona KF from dotbike in UK) and move to soft pads, ideally salmon Kool Stop MTB Pad V-type (also from dotbike). I'm in the process of doing just this so will report back when done.



Done it and the problem is solved completely - I tried just the Kool Stops to start with but they squealed horrendously so I went back to the Shimano pads and altered the hanger arrangement. Added a JagWire in-line adjuster as there is no provision for adjustment on the hanger. Braking is more than acceptable. Why the manufacturers couldn't have worked that out is beyond me.


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## p3k4y (8 Jun 2009)

New Horizon said:


> Done it and the problem is solved completely - I tried just the Kool Stops to start with but they squealed horrendously so I went back to the Shimano pads and altered the hanger arrangement. Added a JagWire in-line adjuster as there is no provision for adjustment on the hanger. Braking is more than acceptable. Why the manufacturers couldn't have worked that out is beyond me.



Hi I am having the exact same problem myself with a 2009 Tricross Sport Triple. I have ordered myself a hanger based on yours (and others) experiences, is there any chance you could post a photo here of the fitted hanger so I have something to compare when I try mine?


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## fooeynet (13 Aug 2009)

*Specialized now selling their own front fork hanger*



p3k4y said:


> Hi I am having the exact same problem myself with a 2009 Tricross Sport Triple. I have ordered myself a hanger based on yours (and others) experiences, is there any chance you could post a photo here of the fitted hanger so I have something to compare when I try mine?



Anyone else notice that Specialized is now selling a front fork hanger themselves? I haven't seen it yet, but the manual is available on the website:
"The Specialized Tricross Fork Brake Hanger is designed to reduce front brake chatter."

http://cdn.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/pdf/manuals/IG0226_Tricross_Guide.pdf


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## peanut (13 Aug 2009)

flyingelephant said:


> My cross bike is almost uncontrolable under front wheel braking. Toed in the front brakes,



I thought that you toed them out ? 
Have you tried having them grip first from the back of the shoes ie the bit nearest the forks .? or is that what you meant


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## Miz (21 Aug 2009)

> I thought that you toed them out ?
> Have you tried having them grip first from the back of the shoes ie the bit nearest the forks .?



The above sounds incorrect.

The brake shoes need to be "toed in" i.e. the part of the brake shoe furthest from the fork needs to make contact with the rim first.

check "Pad Toeing" here: http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=19


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## peanut (21 Aug 2009)

yes I'm sure you are right for reducing brake pad squeal however the op was complaining about judder an all together different thing. I wondered if it might reduce the judder by having the rear of the brake pads touch first instead of the rear.In reality it is a tiny bit of toe less than one degree probably which will soon wear away.


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## mr-marty-martin (21 Aug 2009)

wots wrong with judder, juddery forks on a screeching cabon rim flying into a bend look so pro guys


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## papercorn2000 (24 Aug 2009)

Don't brake. It makes you go slower.


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## mattsccm (26 Aug 2009)

I does seem to be an adjustment thing. My tricross came with crap V's on and the first thing I did was stick some Cantis on. Only old LX things but no issue. Steering column mounted hanger. Long straddle wire. I use long pads coz they were free. no issues except the fork is horrid. So flaming stiff it transmitts every bump. anyone want to swap for a nice steel disc one?


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## iGaz (30 Aug 2009)

I ride a Dolan CX with Alpina carbon forks, Avid shorty 4's and Campagnolo Khamsin G3 wheels for offroad and Mavic Aksium Race take care of road duties. I have cheap nasty BBB brake pads and a Zoom head set mounted cable hanger. Brake levers are Campagnolo Veloce 10 speed ergo's with Tektro crosstops.

Believe it or not, I don't have any judderyness at all and very good brakes, must be lucky!!


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## peanut (28 Oct 2009)

ntvinh986 said:


> Hi all, I am a new member of forum. Would a newcomer be warmly welcome here? Good day you guys!!!



welcome ntvinh986.... nice catchy name that 

You might get more response if you post this message in the new members section 'Welcome Mat' rather than cyclo-cross. 
In the mean time if you have any cyclo-cross specific issues here is the place to post about them.


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## scotbiker (27 Feb 2010)

Is judder just a cantilever brake issue or does it happen to road bikes with carbon forks and caliper brakes as well?


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## Fab Foodie (27 Feb 2010)

Miz's solution is the one required for the Tricross. It's certainly worth a try.


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## Paul_Smith SRCC (7 Mar 2010)

p3k4y said:


> ...is there any chance you could post a photo here of the fitted hanger....?


’looks like this when fitted‘. The 'Uphanger' is distributed by 'Fisher Outdoor Leisure', a supplier who have accounts with the majority of UK bike shops, so should be readily available.



fooeynet said:


> Anyone else notice that Specialized is now selling a front fork hanger themselves? I haven't seen it yet...



I can confirm that the current Specialized Tricross does has their own version of an http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2775/4417830860_fa46df2f06_o.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2775/4417830860_fa46df2f06_o.jpg'Uphanger'

What Chris Juden, the technical editor of the 'CTC' had to say about reducing brake resonance with this set up _“The main cause of this problem is flex in the steerer tube, plus a contribution from the fork crown and the top few inches of fork blade. With the cable hanger at the top of that tube, any flex due to application of the brake tightens the cable and puts the brake on even harder. In moderation this is a very handy servo effect. In excess it causes judder. Changing to a design of cantilever with less mechanical advantage reduces the servo effect and may remove the judder, or not._
_The most effective and the cheapest solution is to re-locate the cable hanger to the fork crown, taking the flexible carbon steerer tube out of the loop. You need an "uphanger_"...

I have sold more '_Van Nicholas Amazon'_ and '_Specialized Tricross'_ bikes than I can remember, as such I normally flag this potential problem upto the rider before and after they take for a test ride as enough have mentioned the judder for it to be a valid concern. However most don't notice a problem at all, although I note with interest that those that have been riding for a while that have had fork judder seemed to have had more focus on the front brake that those that seemed to have used both frnt and rear brake more evenly. 

You can rest assured that the bicycle suppliers, Specialized included do receive feedback from their retailers, I repeat most don't notice fork Judder on the Tricross bikes, although enough did for us (and I dare so other retailers) to highlight this as an issue to Specialized; the 'Uphanger' being such an example of their response.

Paul_Smith
www.corridori.co.uk


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## pauldesjour (31 May 2010)

I have a very light Pro carbon cross fork on my Airborne Carpe Diem with Tektro Oryx Brakes and Spinergy SR3 wheels. Having tried everything (headset, brake pad toe in, etc etc) I found these brake pads.....*Ashima Ultralight* *ASAR71CU*...I cleaned the rims with brake disc cleaner, lightly sanded the pads and with 1mm of toe in the problem is completely cured. Have done about 400 miles so far with no judder/squealing....Got the pads from Bridgetown Cycles in Cannock... see http://www.btownbikes.com/ Hope this helps


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