# 'Handicap' road racing



## Sittingduck (2 Mar 2013)

Hi

If a race is described as this:

*Categories: *E/1/2/3/4
*BC Points: *Regional C+
*Distance: *30 miles (handicap)

What exactly does that mean? Does it mean that the 4th Cat's go off a minute or so before the 3rd Cat's and so on...
If so - then what happens? Assuming the groups all get passed by the next category, do the 4th Cat's race amongst themselves, just on the same roads or is it a free-for-all, after the headstart has been eaten up?

Cheers


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## ColinJ (2 Mar 2013)

I don't know, but I'd be a bit nervous having such a wide mix of experience and ability sharing the same stretch of road!


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## montage (2 Mar 2013)

I believe it is as you say, youths first, then 3rd/4ths, then E12 etc. There might be primes for the 3rds/4th to win (sprints for cash prizes).... but it tends to be first across the line wins, no special dispensations for being 4th cat etc - a free-for-all as you say. At least that is the layout of the handicap races near here that I was considering. the Elites usually win it, not surprisingly, though 30 miles is not far at all.... if you get some strong riders in the lower catagories it may be possible


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## screenman (3 Mar 2013)

It means the 4th cats will all start off at 30mph++ and blow in no time at all, it is always the same even.


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## Sittingduck (3 Mar 2013)

Cheers Monty - you have confirmed my suspicions. I suppose the next main question is... How far of a headstart will each Category be afforded? I'll have to do some further investigations before strategy planning can take place


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## montage (3 Mar 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Cheers Monty - you have confirmed my suspicions. I suppose the next main question is... How far of a headstart will each Category be afforded? I'll have to do some further investigations before strategy planning can take place


 
nowhere near enough


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## montage (3 Mar 2013)

try to find results/reports of the race in past years. You might as well enter though, it'll give you a race paced workout if nothing else and you can measure yourself against other cat 4s


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## Sittingduck (3 Mar 2013)

Yep - this is my thinking. Anything better than coming in last has to be a result.

Edited, after reading another thread.


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## oldroadman (4 Mar 2013)

montage said:


> I believe it is as you say, youths first, then 3rd/4ths, then E12 etc. There might be primes for the 3rds/4th to win (sprints for cash prizes).... but it tends to be first across the line wins, no special dispensations for being 4th cat etc - a free-for-all as you say. At least that is the layout of the handicap races near here that I was considering. the Elites usually win it, not surprisingly, though 30 miles is not far at all.... if you get some strong riders in the lower catagories it may be possible


 
You won't find youth riders (under 16) in there. Not allowed in road races.
The handicap formula is simple, warm up well, start close to 100%, ride properly (through and off at good pace), see what happens, if you get caufght hang on and contribute a little work. From waht I rememer in a 50 km race the gaps front to back will be anything up to 6 minutes, so the scratch riders have to work pretty hard. Although one or two races I have seen the limit lot just amble along and wait to get caught, hoping to sit in. This, happilly, almost never works!


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## Sittingduck (29 Apr 2013)

Ok, now I'm getting nervous because the event is this Thursday. What kind of extra avg speed do you reckon can be had from sitting in a draft of a bunch? I am hoping for perhaps 3mph or so. Based upon my solo recce of the course last week and recent investigation on Strava, I am going to be toast by the second lap if the group boost isn't considerable. Of course I will do my turns, providing there is a T&O situation...


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## montage (29 Apr 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Ok, now I'm getting nervous because the event is this Thursday. What kind of extra avg speed do you reckon can be had from sitting in a draft of a bunch? I am hoping for perhaps 3mph or so. Based upon my solo recce of the course last week and recent investigation on Strava, I am going to be toast by the second lap if the group boost isn't considerable. Of course I will do my turns, providing there is a T&O situation...


 
Cat 4 crits often tend to average 22-23mph ish, cat 3 25mph ish, and a cat 2 one I did on saturday was pretty much on 27mph. Rough guide as standards across different regions differ, courses differ and average speeds are not a great indicator of the speed of crits as they tend to be explosive. Also depends who rocks up on the day etc etc. The main difference with higher categories I find is the the speed at which they kick.

I can't put a speed on it, depends how many of you are working... you should be above time trial pace whilst on the front that is for sure.  There are three things going through my head in a break:
1. Whilst pulling - "got to bury it"
2. When pulled off the front and back on the paceline "jesus I'm shagged, I can't do another turn"
3. about 10-25 seconds before I am on the front again "actually I feel just about recovered to do one more turn"
...rinse and repeat.

Good luck!


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## Sittingduck (29 Apr 2013)

Ok, cheers Monty. I am kind of expecting 24-25mph rolling, although it's a RR not a closed circuit crit. Laps, nonetheless of just under 7 miles in length, with a nasty little hill 200m from the line. Should mess up the sprinters if it comes down to a bunch sprint. I don't think it will though.


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## rich p (30 Apr 2013)

I'm rooting for you Ducky. Tenner each way - don't let me down.


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## VamP (1 May 2013)

Average speeds are irrelevant really. It's the surges and accelerations, plus inexperience in pack riding that will be your undoing (or not). Only one way to get that experience though, so just go for it! Be predictable and watch out for numpties. Most of all have fun.

Is this one of the SERRL events?


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## Sittingduck (1 May 2013)

VamP said:


> Average speeds are irrelevant really. It's the surges and accelerations, plus inexperience in pack riding that will be your undoing (or not). Only one way to get that experience though, so just go for it! Be predictable and watch out for numpties. Most of all have fun.
> 
> Is this one of the SERRL events?


 
Cheers - My main aim is to stay out of trouble, and try not to finish last. Anything else will be a bonus 

It's a Surrey League Road Race. Part of the Handicap series that run all summer. I think the thing about being predictable is going to be key. I don't want to be one of those guys who is snarled at. Likewise I'll be on the lookout for unreliable wheels and try to keep away from them.


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## Crackle (1 May 2013)

rich p said:


> I'm rooting for you Ducky. Tenner each way - don't let me down.


3rd to last, 2nd to last, last?


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## Sittingduck (1 May 2013)

Very likely! Field is probably going to be full, with 80 riders. I just hope I get there early and get a place because last week folk got turned away. I don't know if any E or 1st Cat will ride but there will deffo be a whole bunch of 2nd and 3rd. It could be a learning experience


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## Andrew_P (1 May 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Very likely! Field is probably going to be full, with 80 riders. I just hope I get there early and get a place because last week folk got turned away. I don't know if any E or 1st Cat will ride but there will deffo be a whole bunch of 2nd and 3rd. It could be a learning experience


Hey good luck ducks, post up the Strava route so I can take a peek?!

I thought this looked like a fun entry in to a bit of mamil racing but me thinks it would be a bit much for a noob, might pop up to Palace Park and have a watch though


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## Sittingduck (1 May 2013)

Hi

Yes, I am thinking of giving Palace crits a bash at some point but from what I have heard, CP is brutal. It's quite technical and narrow too. I rode round the course there a few months back and it was bad enough having to dodge Grannies walking labradors on a Friday lunchtime, much less 100 nutters on road bikes. Infact the Info page at RiderHQ for the Paragon Crits mentions that is is for folk who have raced before... so prob worth going to watch as you mentioned and maybe ask one of the organisers?

The course Tomorrow is down by Charlwood and I have ridden the roads round there regularly but not the entire lap. So I did a recce on Thurs - you can see the loop about half way into this Strava ride, starts by Horley the goes uphill, over towards Norwood Hill then down into Charlwood and through to Povey Cross...


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## Andrew_P (1 May 2013)

Yeah I read that bit too, the 17 mile course appealed also it looked like the Cat 4 & 3 Raced separately..

Looks not bad a course as you say depends on how good the Cat 4's are, your first race?


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## Sittingduck (1 May 2013)

Yes my first race, so I am expecting to get shelled out of the back half way round the first lap. At least I know another bunch will soon be along, in the form of 3rd Cats, so maybe chance for a tow - for about 2 minutes anway before getting dropped again.

My understanding of Palace is that all groups are going round the same (fairly short and tight) circuit at the same time and the respective groups finish on a different set of laps. It's a bit up and down there too, so will be difficult to stay together but safe, I would think.


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## Sittingduck (2 May 2013)

Well that was knackering! 

Didn't finish last and didn't crash, so fairly happy. Our group got caught by the next two groups on the road right on the hill (bell lap) and the 3 of us got shelled out of the back and struggled to stay in touch, on the final lap. Very hard going and I was a little dissapointed that I blew up a bit tackling the short hill at the bell. A few came in after me and some were DNF, not sure of my placing but guessing something like 65th or so... time will tell.

Strava link here


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## themosquitoking (2 May 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Well that was knackering!
> 
> Didn't finish last and didn't crash, so fairly happy. Our group got caught by the next two groups on the road right on the hill (bell lap) and the 3 of us got shelled out of the back and struggled to stay in touch, on the final lap. Very hard going and I was a little dissapointed that I blew up a bit tackling the short hill at the bell. A few came in after me and some were DNF, not sure of my placing but guessing something like 65th or so... time will tell.
> 
> Strava link here


 
Holy crap, you averaged 23.something mph. That's god territory to me, good work.


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## Sittingduck (2 May 2013)

Hah - cheers but mainly through doing an organised chaingang for 3 laps worth. Some tactical errors made but it's all a good learning experience!


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## ianrauk (2 May 2013)

Well done Ducky.... can only get better.


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## Andrew_P (2 May 2013)

That not too shabby, I bet it is a lot about tactics as well as stamina/speed.


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## rich p (2 May 2013)

Bang goes my tenner, ya tosser


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## Sittingduck (2 May 2013)




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## Sittingduck (2 May 2013)

LOCO said:


> That not too shabby, I bet it is a lot about tactics as well as stamina/speed.


 
Definitely. A game of deceit, I reckon... have to make it look like you are doing as much work as possible while actually doing as little as you can get away with. I made some bad judgments and found myself off the front of our group more than once on the first 2 laps. The energy expended cost me dear, in the end. Oh well, all good fun!


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## Rob3rt (2 May 2013)

Nice one SD


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## Herzog (3 May 2013)

Well done. It's not alway the strongest who wins, but often the smartest (though if you don't have the legs to back up you brain, then you're in trouble).


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## Sittingduck (3 May 2013)

Yep cheers - I was definitely one of the dumbest


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## Andrew_P (3 May 2013)

What did handicapped mean?

Also looking through some of the other riders Strava account and comment it looks like there was a fair bit of team work going on, were you riding with a club or completely solo?


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## T.M.H.N.E.T (3 May 2013)

LOCO said:


> What did handicapped mean?
> 
> Also looking through some of the other riders Strava account and comment it looks like there was a fair bit of team work going on, were you riding with a club or completely solo?


 
Graded groups start at intervals.


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## Sittingduck (3 May 2013)

LOCO said:


> What did handicapped mean?
> 
> Also looking through some of the other riders Strava account and comment it looks like there was a fair bit of team work going on, were you riding with a club or completely solo?


 
As Netty has said - Handicap means the lower graded guys go first and after a minute or two the next group go who are in theory stronger, and so on. I got put in the second group and there were cat 3's in group one, last night so I think there was some randomness when they picked the groups. Our group worked really well together once we got organised which took perhaps half of the first lap. One guy got dropped within the first 500m and we caught a few stragglers from the first group somewhere on the second lap. By the end of lap 3 we still hadn't managed to catch group one and we got caught by the 3rd and 4th groups, which is where I got shelled out, as they smashed through us up the hill. Three of us worked together on the last lap but we couldn't quite get back to the main bunch. Caught a few going up the hill, which was just before the finish but really had nothing left in the legs by that point. Next time I will try to spend less time at the front during the early laps and hope I get put into the first group on the road, instead of group 2


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## Andrew_P (3 May 2013)

Nosing through some of the other riders Strava accounts (one appears quite frequently on some of my segments) most of them were running with power meters 

Also you were not that far off the average pace of the winner, well he was 25mph avg, but by his fastest lap was the last.


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## VamP (3 May 2013)

Handicap races are a bit of a strange beast, in as much that while it's in everyone's interest in all the groups to work together to either stay away, or catch up, what actually happens is that the less experienced groups, i.e. the early ones, do not work well together as everyone is trying to save their energy to be able to absorb the surge when the faster guys catch up. Which means that they always get caught 

Well done on your first race, i'd say it has gonne as well as you could have hoped for


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## Sittingduck (4 May 2013)

Results are in. I came 45th out of 60


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## rich p (4 May 2013)

Well done Ducky! Good first effort.


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## Andrew_P (4 May 2013)

Where did you come in Cat 4's?


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## Sittingduck (4 May 2013)

Well... we were spread all over the place because they didn't segregate 4th Cat's into the correct groups. For example Gp1 had 3rd Cats & 4th Cats in it and Gp2 (the one I was in) had at least one Cat 2, with God knows who else. Nevertheless, I came 9th out of 18 4th Cats on overall standings.


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## oldroadman (4 May 2013)

Where you finish in a category is only for your own interest, which is useful to place your progress/ability, but it's where you are in overall places that matters. As a first race to get round and placed anywhere is not bad. Regarding the comments about ending up off the front of your group early on, you were simply going through too hard. The idea is that the front rider pulls over and does a revolution or two 9at most) relaxing the pedal pressure, so slides back into the "down line and second rider in "up" line moves to the front, keeping a steady high speed. If it needs strong accelaration to go through, don't. The bloke who will not ease will soon get bored with front riding!
It's all part of the learning process. Ignore averages, road racing is a series of steady efforts, relaxed moments, flat out for a short period. Strava segment mean nothing in a race context. Head and legs must combine, then eventually you get better an results come.
Best of luck,keep trying, racing, and most of all, learning from the experienced guys. If anyone says they don't need or take notice of advice, or know it all, they are wrong. Even world champions have coaches, soigneurs, doctors, managers, and team mates, and the take notice and evaluate of every scrap of information that comes their way. Which is how the best stay the best.


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## Andrew_P (5 May 2013)

oldroadman said:


> <sniped>
> Best of luck,keep trying, racing, and most of all, learning from the experienced guys. If anyone says they don't need or take notice of advice, or know it all, they are wrong. Even world champions have coaches, soigneurs, doctors, managers, and team mates, and the take notice and evaluate of every scrap of information that comes their way. Which is how the best stay the best.


How long should you take the workload at the front, and do other riders actively try and avoid ever leading the group?


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## Sittingduck (6 May 2013)

LOCO said:


> How long should you take the workload at the front, and do other riders actively try and avoid ever leading the group?


 
I think it just depends and I am quite new to it but it seems that ideally the next guy will be coming through to the front as soon as you have slotted into the front and begun easing off, so only a few seconds. It depends a lot on the situation though and I'm clearly no expert! Practice makes perfect and all that...


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## themosquitoking (6 May 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> I think it just depends and I am quite new to it but it seems that ideally the next guy will be coming through to the front as soon as you have slotted into the front and begun easing off, so only a few seconds. It depends a lot on the situation though and I'm clearly no expert! Practice makes perfect and all that...


 
From what i've seen of the racing there is two ways they do it. What i call defensively, where the lead rider drops off and joins the back of the group or what i see as the more offensive option where the back rider accelerates to the front of the group to take their turn. I might have it all wrong but if i haven't good work on taking the harder option. Rule 5 compliant.


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## Sittingduck (6 May 2013)

It's more of a continually rotating pair of lines. The right one being faster and when the rider gets to the front of the line they swing across to the left line and come of the gas very slightly. When the rider reaches the back of the left line they swing across to the right line and pick up the pace again.


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## oldroadman (7 May 2013)

themosquitoking said:


> From what i've seen of the racing there is two ways they do it. What i call defensively, where the lead rider drops off and joins the back of the group or what i see as the more offensive option where the back rider accelerates to the front of the group to take their turn.* I might have it all wrong* but if i haven't good work on taking the harder option. Rule 5 compliant.


 
A bit, coming fast from the rear is only for attacks, you never do this unless you want to attack and split the group simply because they are not working well, it's too big, a sort-out is needed, you are on a wide road and about to join a narrow section where it's safer at the front. In a working group it's simply efficient to have the "up" line rolling past the "down" line, and which side that is depends on wind direction, so if there is a strong sidewind it naturally drops into echelon, always moving froward into the wind and coming back down protected. Much easier to do or see in a diagram than describe!


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## themosquitoking (7 May 2013)

oldroadman said:


> A bit, coming fast from the rear is only for attacks, you never do this unless you want to attack and split the group simply because they are not working well, it's too big, a sort-out is needed, you are on a wide road and about to join a narrow section where it's safer at the front. In a working group it's simply efficient to have the "up" line rolling past the "down" line, and which side that is depends on wind direction, so if there is a strong sidewind it naturally drops into echelon, always moving froward into the wind and coming back down protected. Much easier to do or see in a diagram than describe!


 
I think you described it pretty well, cheers fella.


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## Rob3rt (7 May 2013)

Video:


View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbqZCrqV_wE


Diagram/animation: Like this but instead of 1 rider going backwards, a whole line are.


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## VamP (7 May 2013)

Shall we start the ''ten reasons why you'll never see this in a 4th cat race'' thread?


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## Sittingduck (15 May 2013)

My second race is happening tomorrow evening, as part of the same series. Providing I feel ok on the day, I plan on riding and getting more experience. Must remember not to hammer it on the front and only do what I am required to do and nothing more. Shorter laps of just under 3 miles in this course and it's pan flat. Will suit the sprinters, so I am hoping that if (by some act of God) I get in the first group and we are able to stay away that there is a break in the last couple of laps - that ideally I will get into 

In reality I will most likely get my legs ripped off by lap #6 and the 2nd Cats will be through us well before the final lap or two!


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## rich p (15 May 2013)

Bang goes another tenner!
Good luck, Ducky


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## ianrauk (15 May 2013)

Yeah, good luck Ducky...
Knowing you all these years aan seeing how far you have come with this.... I am in awe man...really.


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## montage (15 May 2013)

Are there any non-handicap races near you that you can enter?


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## Sittingduck (15 May 2013)

Only available ones in the Surrey League (for 4th Cat) are closed circuit crits, or the Handicap series. If I ever make 3rd Cat then it opens up more possibilities, such as the longer weekend road races. Having marshalled at one of those it made me feel utterly drained just watching them. 60 - 70 miles is quite a long way to have to ride at such intensities. I thought about one of the circuit races but two things are putting me off: 1) Reports of bad riding and smash-ups 2) Not very easy for me to get to the venues (apart from Palace).

I think that the Handicap series is probably a good place to learn because being in the same field as lots of good riders will afford the opportunity to observe and pickup some tips


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## Sittingduck (16 May 2013)

Sorry Rich - but you can kiss goodbye to another tenner 

Excellent fun this evening and did as well as I could have hoped for. My gameplan went out of the window (again) on lap #1, as I had told myself to be disciplined and not do much work, save the legs for the later stages etc. So there's a 3 man break that goes half way round the first lap and guess who's in it  (technically it was a 2 man break and I rode across the gap). Our trio stayed away for a couple of laps or so before the remains of our assigned group reeled us in. We managed relatively decent through and off for the next 5 or 6 laps with only 1 or 2 passengers. It was the penultimate lap before we were caught by a massive peloton. Last 2 laps were really good fun and it was class being sucked along in a group of about 40 - 50 riders. Dunno about final position but finished somewhere in the main bunch and went past a few at the line. Perhaps 30-40 position, out of 60, at a guess...


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## rich p (16 May 2013)

Nice one Ducky. All part of the learning process!


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## VamP (17 May 2013)

Cyclopark in Kent, Hogg's Hill in Redbridge and Hillingdon in urm, Hillingdon are your best bets if you want to start earning some points.

There's the odd 3/4 cat road race, my Club is holding one this Sunday (Ashwell Primavera) and the Elveden Race series is an interesting addition this year, being a private road circuit around 3.7 miles, next race on June 8th.

I also do MK Bowl, and Lotus Hethel track mid week races, but those are a bit far from you.


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## Sittingduck (17 May 2013)

Yeah - I will probably try a 4th Cat only crit, at Cyclopark at some point. It's difficult for me to get to at the moment though and I am fearful of smash-ups on the closed circuit races. Last night was good fun and I'm not too bothered about picking up BC points, initially. Another option is Palace on a Tuesday night but I want to get more race experience before trying that, as it's very tight.

There are a couple of other options later in the year but for now I will stick to the handicaps and maybe the odd 10 mile TT 

Cheers


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## Andrew_P (17 May 2013)

Reckon I am a years worth of cycling away from even considering having a go lol, well done SD


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## ianrauk (17 May 2013)

LOCO said:


> Reckon I am a years worth of cycling away from even considering having a go lol, well done SD


 

I reckon I am a lifetime away from even considering having a go...


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## Andrew_P (17 May 2013)

ianrauk said:


> I reckon I am a lifetime away from even considering having a go...


Me too probably, but don't remove the hope and desire!


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## Sittingduck (17 May 2013)

Nonsense - just have a go but also have low expectations in terms of a result. I was targetting 59th (out of a field of 60) and my primary objective was to stay upright. Anything else is a bonus!


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## Andrew_P (17 May 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Nonsense - just have a go but also have low expectations in terms of a result. I was targetting 59th (out of a field of 60) and my primary objective was to stay upright. Anything else is a bonus!


Are there organised groups within each set off? Just strikes me that an organised group of 4-5 with a set out plan of who and when takes the front and for how long would be a lot better than second guessing what everyone was up to.


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## Sittingduck (17 May 2013)

The groups are about ten strong and the organisation of workload is up to the riders. Generally there will be one or two who are more keen to get things sorted. The race organisers will select the groupings at the start and call out numbers. You go to the road and form the group when your number is called. It's not pre-arranged as to the order of who is where, within the group though. Just have to see how it pans out and make tactical decisions based upon the situation. I made a couple of bad ones last night and a couple of good ones. That's all part of the fun, at least for me! There were folk who were unable to come through and do their turn on the front who just sat on the back of the group for many laps but everybody just got on with it. The stronger ones amonst us did some extra turns or longer stints on the front or formed a break, as mentioned earlier. It seems to be a balancing act between conserving energy for the (almost) inevitable catch by the peloton and giving yourself a fighting change of staying away by keeping a decent pace going.


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## oldroadman (18 May 2013)

Best learning process for a new rider, handicaps. Learn to do steady through and off, maintain pace without expending too much energy, and how to hang on when a faster group comes up. One thing though, no point whatsoever in "sprinting" for places below about 10 in the finish, as this is the most crashes can happen. Diving through for an "ego place" can be very dangerous for everyone around you as well as yourself, and make no friends. And as you get better, friends in the peloton are a good thing to have.
To avoid the 4th cat crashes, get to the front, the idiots who think they can ride and listen to no advice usually end up hanging on, and again avoid the sprint if there is no chance of a sensible placing. Best to sit back and roll in, that way you can pick your way past the debris safely if it all goes pear shaped.


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## Sittingduck (19 May 2013)

Provisional results are in. Looks like I came 32nd (of 60)... a small improvement on last time and I was more comfortable with everything this week, so quite happy.


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## ianrauk (19 May 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Provisional results are in. Looks like I came 32nd (of 60)... a small improvement on last time and I was more comfortable with everything this week, so quite happy.


 

Good stuff Bruv!
Onwards and upwards...


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## Sittingduck (19 May 2013)

Strava link, with a tasty final lap due to clinging onto the Peloton for dear life!
http://app.strava.com/activities/54576954#


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## oldroadman (19 May 2013)

Sittingduck said:


> Strava link, with a tasty final lap due to clinging onto the Peloton for dear life!
> http://app.strava.com/activities/54576954#


 Good stuff, every one you finish is a step up, eventually it will be nearer the front, and maybe in front one day..


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## Sittingduck (20 May 2013)

Yep cheers O.R.M. I am definitely going into these with low expectations. Happy to do as many of them as I can, this summer and learn the strategy


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## Sittingduck (20 May 2013)

User said:


> Sittingduck just out of interest, what age are you or what age group (if applicable) do you ride in...if and when I return to England, I do fancy having a go, but at 43 and not having seen any cat 3 - 4 racing or done any type of racing, I sometimes feel I might be getting too old to start tearing around the streets  yet I don't have the same misgivings about tri or duathlons which are other things I might consider giving a go ...


 
I turned 37 last week, so not really a spring chicken. Many of the guys I have seen so far aren't either, although the age range seems to be quite broad. In the races that I have tried so far, all ages are racing together apart from Juniors who are not allowed to race on open roads. There's a distinction between riders who are 40+ and they are classed as Vets. There are bonus point in the league for first Vet across the line, etc. Some other events are for Vets only but from what I can tell the majority are all bundled together. You should have a go, if you fancy it! I tried a cpl of TT's first (last Summer) to see how I might get on, with competative riding and am doing my first TT this year, tomorrow infact. They are ok but I find it hard to get excited about Time Trialing... I suppose everyone is into different things


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## Rob3rt (20 May 2013)

You see all sorts of ages, shapes and sizes at amateur races and sometimes (quite often) it is those who look the least likely that absolutely smash it!


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## Sittingduck (20 May 2013)

User said:


> cool, I just might give it a go, thanks for that and good luck with future races


 
Thank you - I think I may need it!


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