# I'm a grinder!



## Stig-OT-Dump (29 Dec 2008)

I must have been good this year, Santa brought me a cadence sensor. 

Now I'm sad - my natural cadence seems to be well below the optimum values. I'm trying to concentrate on dropping a gear and spinning, but then I seem to lose pace. 

So does anyone have advice? How can I start spinning like a dervish and still rip up the miles? Or, am I stuck with mother nature's gifts while being cursed by Santa's?


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## Fab Foodie (30 Dec 2008)

Stig-OT-Dump said:


> I must have been good this year, Santa brought me a cadence sensor.
> 
> Now I'm sad - my natural cadence seems to be well below the optimum values. I'm trying to concentrate on dropping a gear and spinning, but then I seem to lose pace.
> 
> So does anyone have advice? How can I start spinning like a dervish and still rip up the miles? Or, am I stuck with mother nature's gifts while being cursed by Santa's?


And what's wrong with being a Grinder? Welcome to the club.
I think there has been a lot of bollocks talked about cadence, especially since Lance came along. A few bits gleaned from C+ suggests that recent research shows that people pedal most efficiently and effectively at their "natural" cadence. There may be good reason for this... we're not all designed and built the same so why should we pedal the same?

My own 25+ years of cycling have been at would would be described at Grinder cadence. I spent the first 2 years at my Cycling club (about 4 years ago) desperately trying to Spin like Lance with poor effect (everybody told me I should), one day I gave-up and slipped up a couple of cogs and lo and behold, I could now keep-up with the changes in pace much more easily and ascend the short sharp climbs much quicker with a quick honk. I suspect there are many of us out there who's natural pedaling style is more torque than revs, if it suits then use it, don't get bullied into having to use anybody else's cadence. Experiment by all means, but don't feel pressurised.


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## Young Un (30 Dec 2008)

I think I am a grinder aswell and I find that grinding is what suits me best - altough it may have just destroyed my knee

Steve


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## RedBike (30 Dec 2008)

I tend to spin on the flat but on hills for some reason I always end up mashing the gears up them.

The steeper the hill the more I mash/grind the gears, even if I have lower gears available to use.


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## dudi (2 Jan 2009)

what is the 'perfect' rpm? is it still 90?


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## andrew-the-tortoise (2 Jan 2009)

I tend to 'grind' up hills as well..


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## snorri (2 Jan 2009)

dudi said:


> what is the 'perfect' rpm? is it still 90?



That is the figure "they" quote. I can only attain that rpm by staying in the granny ring and sweating like an ox.


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## Fab Foodie (2 Jan 2009)

dudi said:


> what is the 'perfect' rpm? is it still 90?



No, the perfect rpm is what works for you after you've experimented with the options.


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## Ravenz (2 Jan 2009)

What cadence are you doing when 'grinding'? ... imo going down to 60 is no issue.. I think any slower tho' could possibly be detrimental in the long term for joints .. i.e. stressing them as opposed to creating overload to strengthen ligaments and tendons which have a poorer blood supply but help to stabilise those critical areas.


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## jimboalee (2 Jan 2009)

Fab Foodie is correct.

My story.
Back in the sixties and seventies, a tripple was very rare, and the small ring on a road race bike was usually 39. The big sprocket was 22 or 23 on a five block. If you needed any lower, you were considered a nancy.
My Pug has 38 x 23, and I have adapted to be a 'grinder'.
On the flat, a lot of the Solihull club spin along on the small ring while I pedal big gears slowly.
I have taken a lot of stick from the younguns, while the older chaps don't say anything.

Do what feels natural.


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## HLaB (2 Jan 2009)

My cadence sensor is fitted to my summer bike but I don't really pay too much attention to it. Looking back at my figures I average around 68rpm for leisure cycling (I like hills) but I don't like pedaling down hill that's bound to affect it. It rises slightly to 75rpm on average for flatter routes but even then I like freewheeling so I wouldn't pay much attention to it.


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## Joe24 (2 Jan 2009)

When im on the fixed i do whatever cadence i can. I cant just change gear when i start spinning fast, and if its a strong headwind, i cant keep the speed going because its strong then my cadence is going to drop.
I can spin fast aswell as grind a gear. Which is something i like
I found that if i went from grinding on a ride, to dropping it down a gear to spin more, then when it should be easier it just isnt and i lose speed, so i go back to grinding.


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## Will1985 (2 Jan 2009)

I'm a spinner at around 98-105rpm. I'll spin up short hills but inevitably it drops on the longer steeper inclines.

I find grinding can hurt my knee, but that may be due to an old injury which doesn't like lots of force put through it.


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## dudi (3 Jan 2009)

Fab Foodie said:


> No, the perfect rpm is what works for you after you've experimented with the options.



that's what i was inferring by the quotation points around 'perfect'


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## BentMikey (3 Jan 2009)

Will1985 said:


> I'm a spinner at around 98-105rpm. I'll spin up short hills but inevitably it drops on the longer steeper inclines.
> 
> I find grinding can hurt my knee, but that may be due to an old injury which doesn't like lots of force put through it.



I've noticed that I not only love spinning, but I'm noticeably faster on my recumbent at above 95rpm. OTOH I'm pretty happy rolling along on my fixed wheel at uber low rpm. That's only uphill though, as I ride 66", which seems to be a tiny gear compared to most on here.


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## spire (3 Jan 2009)

I thought 'optimum' cadence was 80-85??

Irrelevant to me; I'm a fellow grinder (about 60-65). "You pull big gears," some folk say condescendingly to me, then go quiet when I whizz past them up the hills!


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## Stig-OT-Dump (3 Jan 2009)

Ravenz said:


> What cadence are you doing when 'grinding'? ...



Last ride was 18 miles, net height gain just over 700' - average cadence 73, max 111. But, having looked at the graph of the data I was down to 60 much more than I was up to 80, in fact I only went above 80 a few times and only hit 100 twice (and that was with more than a few decent descents). I've got along way to go if I'm going to be able to go at around 90.

I'd like to be getting my cycling cadence close to my running cadence to ease transitions in duathlons, and to be honest my joints would probably benefit from a slight increase overall. 

I can't afford to buy a fixed to practice pedalling technique, but are there any other drills I should be doing? Or is it practice and conditioning?


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## Stig-OT-Dump (3 Jan 2009)

By the way, thanks for all the replies; they have provided some reassurance.
Stig


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## marinyork (3 Jan 2009)

I don't think there's anything insanely bad about 60rpm on a steep(ish) hill. Anything above about 8% and it can go completely out of the window to any value with me. 5% and below I can handle. I just try and work keeping a sane cadence on particular hills I do regularly and it's worked on all but 2 hills. Doing it right on a 14% hill is going to take a long time.

To my very low level of knowledge it sounds like you might be naturally suited to that rather than doing it totally wrong. I used to grind on completely flat bits at 35-50rpm and it barely changed for hills. I now have correct things and cycle 60 to 110rpm. Cycling in the vale of York recently it was a completely different experience doing 100rpm for mile after mile.


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## Ravenz (8 Jan 2009)

Stig-OT-Dump said:


> I can't afford to buy a fixed to practice pedalling technique, but are there any other drills I should be doing? Or is it practice and conditioning?



... plenty of cadence drills you can do : using a turbo trainer or stationary bike .. or attending one of my special Spinning classes 
again its all what suits the individual, but a higher cadence can stress joints less than a lower one . . I am just positioning the case for caution in anything excessive, of course!

As an aside, when I use the leg press machine in the gym and have substantial weight on it to develop power and strength for the upper legs and backside.. you sure can feel it in the knees after 6 reps or so.. no way would I want to really grind up an incline for minutes on end with that amount of stress.


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## BentMikey (9 Jan 2009)

marinyork said:


> I don't think there's anything insanely bad about 60rpm on a steep(ish) hill.



+1


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## Stig-OT-Dump (12 Feb 2009)

Well, it's 6 weeks later and after a lot of diligent concentration I'm finding that the numbers are rocketing skywards. I'm concentraing on pedalling in circles, using a smooth action and saving the mashing for the tatties. Now I'm normally sitting around 85 and getting up to 110.

I could probably do with getting a bike-mount for the Garmin 50 (anyone got one they don't want?) so I can see the figures and optimise my gear changing but...

WOW!!!!!

I am going faster AND easier. I'm making better use of the gears and I'm feeling stronger. I think it has also helped my CV system as my resting pulse has gone down to lower than it was this time last year. 

Good times.

Stig


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## Ravenz (13 Feb 2009)

Stig-OT-Dump said:


> Well, it's 6 weeks later and after a lot of diligent concentration I'm finding that the numbers are rocketing skywards. ..
> WOW!!!!!I am going faster AND easier. I'm making better use of the gears and I'm feeling stronger. I think it has also helped my CV system as my resting pulse has gone down to lower than it was this time last year.
> Stig



Well done.. !
could do with a few more enlightened converts!


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## jimboalee (13 Feb 2009)

Stig-OT-dump's experimentation has paid off.

I did mine years ago when cycle computers first hit the market.
I also had opportunity to use a motorcycle dynamometer to directly measure Power at various pedaling rpm.

I found my natural cadence for Pmax is 70 - 80. Above 85 and I feel like I'm wearing my hips out 

Its a personal thing and only the individual can do the hard work that is necessary


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## Tynan (19 Feb 2009)

I used to grind and knew no better, did what stig did, from reading on here when i first got here, tried it and persevered with it and it now feels very right and feels much better for my legs, gawd knows there's enough work for them without making it heavy work too


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## jimboalee (19 Feb 2009)

Repeat...

Speed is independent of gear ratio. It is relative to power.
Power is on a polynomial curve against speed.

Ride how you feel is comfortable.

I notice there is an article in today's comic that looks at 'pedaling styles', and how to improve.
A large piece of text, but a disclaimer within a coloured panel.

In one phrase... "Smooth rotations"..


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## col (19 Feb 2009)

I used to pedal slower in the bigger gears but find now I will drop to the middle cog on the front and keep my spin up but lose some speed on hills, unless im feeling strong, then I leave it and push harder to keep the spin speed up. In effect Im only really using two gears most of the time.


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## jimboalee (19 Feb 2009)

Just as a by-the-way.

I reduced the top ratio on my Sturmey commute bike by 5", from 73 to 68.

The first couple of trips I pedalled with a 'spinning' technique, keeping the speed I usually rode at lower revs.

After this last week's worth of commutes, I have found my cruising speed has reduced because I am pedalling at my 'natural' cadence, about 75 rpm.

My cruising speed is of course lower, but I can now climb the steep ones in top, resulting in a similar total time.

The bike is now a more pleasant ride all round.

I can't change the habit of a lifetime.


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## jimboalee (19 Feb 2009)

Addendum.

75 rpm on the Sturmey is 150 Watts at 14.5 mph.

On the old 22T sprocket, 14.5 mph ( 150 Watts ) was at 68 rpm - below my range.

75 rpm on the 22T sprocket was 16 mph for 180 Watts. I don't like keeping this up for an hour, twice a day.


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## alecstilleyedye (19 Feb 2009)

i think it's a matter of physiology. i spin low gears up hills. there are people i know (some of whom i regard as better cyclists than i) who cannot do that and so grind. ulrich was a great grinder, and armstrong didn't win 7 tours just because he was a spinner.

horses, as they say, for courses.


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## Ravenz (20 Feb 2009)

I am getting a little confused here now.... can we have a bit of clarity on 'grinding'

60 - 65 rpm on a hill is perfectly respectable if the gradient is lets say 12% + ???
below 60 .. is 'grinding' territory ??? 
70 ---75 ---80 + is 'spinning' up the hill... ???


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## jimboalee (20 Feb 2009)

RavenZ. 

Its comparative.

For me, 75 - 80 is natural. Below this is 'grinding', above this is 'spinning'.
For you, 85 - 90 might be natural. so below this will be grinding and above will be spinning.

Who decided what rpm was spinning and what rpm was grinding ?


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## Ravenz (20 Feb 2009)

jimboalee said:


> Who decided what rpm was spinning and what rpm was grinding ?



exactly...  who did and can they own up..?

to me tho.. there is a rhythm to 60 + or so on a decent hill incline ...
so *below* that actually looks like someone struggling.. e.g. going past the Cheshire View on Mow Cop ... 
80 and + does look 'blistering' ...using the check of the 2001 Alp d'Huez.. now the vid might be playing a little 'fast' on my DIVx player but not much so...

and Ulrich doesnt to my eye look like he is grinding either..


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## col (20 Feb 2009)

Im not sure of the spinning count, but for me if Im struggling and not speeding up Im grinding, if Im speeding up to a point where Im not really struggling and able to keep it going relatively easily Im spinning.


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## dellzeqq (20 Feb 2009)

does anybody have a link for a speed/revs/wheelsize chart?


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## Ravenz (20 Feb 2009)

dellzeqq said:


> does anybody have a link for a speed/revs/wheelsize chart?



this is nifty
http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/gears/gear_calculator.html


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## jimboalee (20 Feb 2009)

Machinehead is useful for calculating the speed vs cadence with his ratio sums,
but can you keep the revs in the long gears ????

You need to get on a turbo with power measurements (like Redbike's Tacx magic ) to see how much oomph you can muster, and how much oomph you can keep for an hour.

Then you need to estimate your coefficient of drag by freewheeling down a hill.

Then you can marry them all together and choose the gears that suit you.


There's another thread that talks about 50T rings and 11T sprockets. Is anyone who isn't a pro' able to keep 85 rpm for an hour in this gear? 30 miles !!
Probably not, its for downhilling ( or posing ).

If you can keep 200ish Watts for an hour, you could cruise along at 20 mph on a 53/17.

I ramble,,,,


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