# Another pedestrian injured by cyclist



## PK99 (28 Aug 2018)

More bad press.... pedestrian has life threatening injuries following hit and run by cyclist

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...list-hit-and-run-in-east-london-a3921976.html


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## Slick (28 Aug 2018)

Mmm, not good.


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## Milkfloat (29 Aug 2018)

After The Allison case I can see why they did not hang around and did a runner. I personally would not be able to do that and I hope the pedestrian recovers soon. I hope that more facts come to light quickly before the comments section of the media go into overdrive. It does look to be on a pedestrian crossing, for the cyclist’s sake I hope the lights were on green.


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## Beebo (29 Aug 2018)

He abandoned the bike a mile away. 
Sounds very dodgy to me, not the actions of your average cyclist. 
Police have recovered the bike so have some decent evidence.


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## raleighnut (29 Aug 2018)

Sad news.


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## Gary E (29 Aug 2018)

Too late - the anti-cyclist comments have started 
Once again, we all get judged on the actions of one person


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## MichaelW2 (29 Aug 2018)

Odd that the police have the bicycle but have not release make/model to the public.


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## PK99 (29 Aug 2018)

More info:

_His bicycle was later found abandoned a mile away in Approach Close. It has been recovered by police._

_Witnesses said she was hit by a man riding a dark red motorised “e-bike”. Police said a bicycle was recovered in nearby Approach Close and later confirmed it was battery-powered._

_Caleb Garba, 30, said: “Two cyclists were trying to dodge her but one hit her at the crossing. *He must have been going at some speed to do that much damage*. My colleague brought out towels for her and put her into the recovery position. Her breathing was really bad.”_

_He said other people helped the cyclist get to his feet. “He was bleeding from the head and dazed but only wanted to get out of there. He didn’t say anything and ran away. People were telling him to wait for the police and get treatment. They tried to stop him.”_

_Another witness, who did not want to be named, said : “I heard a big bang and saw a guy on a bike on the floor and a lady unresponsive, like she had been knocked out. Someone who saw the incident started talking to him. It looked rather confrontational... next minute he had gone.” The witness described the e-bike cyclist as wearing an orange or red jumper and jeans, but no helmet.* He added: “I’m sure the lights were red as it happened, so I can only assume she was crossing.”

*
_
Be interesting to learn if the e-bike in question was speed limited or had been modified. I see far too many e-bikes travelling, without pedalling, at far greater than the 25kph limit.

ref: https://www.ebiketuning.com/


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## mjr (29 Aug 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> After The Allison case I can see why they did not hang around and did a runner. I personally would not be able to do that and I hope the pedestrian recovers soon. I hope that more facts come to light quickly before the comments section of the media go into overdrive. It does look to be on a pedestrian crossing, for the cyclist’s sake I hope the lights were on green.


The light being green shouldn't matter much - you still shouldn't run people over and the red crossing light isn't binding on pedestrians - but I think fleeing the scene and the bike being abandoned nearby suggests strongly it may have been stolen. E-bikes surely have several parts on which are numbered and could be traced to the owner, so I hope they reported it stolen promptly (before the collision). I also wonder whether it had been derestricted, basically turning it into an illegal electric motorcycle, and so a thief stole more than they expected, which could have contributed to the collision. Time will tell.


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## T4tomo (29 Aug 2018)

Unrestricted ebikes (it may not have been unrestricted) have more in common with mopeds than cycles.

All to common now on London commuter scene are electric scooters and electric skateboards, which are an accident waiting (or not) to happen given their lack of braking prowess


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## Blue Hills (29 Aug 2018)

Saw someone on an electric stand up scooter with really small wheels going round the south circular the other day. Totally nuts when you consider pot holes/road problems, high centre of gravity and the number of hgvs on that road. Hope the pedestrian recovers.


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## jarlrmai (29 Aug 2018)

An unrestricted ebike is a motor vehicle not a bicycle, have to wait and see if it was unrestricted. But I've been wondering what would happen when someone got hit by one.


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## numbnuts (29 Aug 2018)

jarlrmai said:


> An unrestricted ebike is a motor vehicle not a bicycle, have to wait and see if it was unrestricted. But I've been wondering what would happen when someone got hit by one.


He would get the book thrown at him, no MOT, no tax, on insurance, and no helmet and that is just to start with, maybe that's why he did a runner.....and if it was going to be “trial by media” God help him.


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## jarlrmai (29 Aug 2018)

numbnuts said:


> He would get the book thrown at him, no MOT, no tax, on insurance, and no helmet and that is just to start with, maybe that's why he did a runner.....and if it was going to be “trial by media” God help him.



I'm more interested in how people would treat this like it was a 'cyclist' thing when it's really an 'electric motorbike' thing.


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## Drago (29 Aug 2018)

T4tomo said:


> Unrestricted ebikes (it may not have been unrestricted) have more in common with mopeds than cycles.



Not just in common with them. They _are_ smopeds or motorcycles, the final classification being determined by speed and weight. The legislation prevents them being readily switchable, so these muppets who fit a hidden full power switch under the seat are riding round on motor vehicles, even when switched to a legal power/speed output. These d***s are going to get them all banned without licence, insurance and number plates, and they'll ruin it for everyone.


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## numbnuts (30 Aug 2018)

The police have got someone


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## jarlrmai (30 Aug 2018)

Will we learn if it was unrestricted? He seems to have been charged under "furious driving" I thought that was for cyclists as in drivers get charged with careless/dangerous driving (isn't it what Charlie Alliston was charged with) If I hit someone and ran on an unregistered moped would I be charged with that?


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## Crankarm (31 Aug 2018)

Drago said:


> Not just in common with them. They _are_ smopeds or motorcycles, the final classification being determined by speed and weight. The legislation prevents them being readily switchable, so these muppets who fit a hidden full power switch under the seat are riding round on motor vehicles, even when switched to a legal power/speed output. These d***s are going to get them all banned without licence, insurance and number plates, and they'll ruin it for everyone.



Lets hope so. It is inevitable, not only to protect themselves from themselves but to protect everyone else from them.


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## Crankarm (31 Aug 2018)

I hope all traditional cyclists are not going to be tarred by association with this incident involving an E-bike which on the face of it seems to me like it had probably been stolen to be ridden like it was.


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## jarlrmai (31 Aug 2018)

It's already happening, if someone was to shoot someone with a bike shaped gun we'd probably cop it in the comment sections.


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## mjr (31 Aug 2018)

CCTV, apparently showing errors in previous eyewitness statements, in Murdoch's scum https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7136632/cctv-video-dalston-hit-run-bike-crash/


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## Drago (31 Aug 2018)

Difficult to be sure, but seems the poor lady may be at fault. That said, a bike pilot should be aware that peds do the damndest things and be riding within their ability to stop in case the worst should happen.

I guess we'll have to wait for the Bow Street Runners to finish their investigation and see if they release any details to the media before we'll really know.


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## mjr (31 Aug 2018)

Drago said:


> Difficult to be sure, but seems the poor lady may be at fault. That said, a bike pilot should be aware that peds do the damndest things and be riding within their ability to stop in case the worst should happen.


For that reason, I'd say it looks like both at fault. There is also fleeing the scene and possibly having a modified e-bike.


> I guess we'll have to wait for the Bow Street Runners to finish their investigation and see if they release any details to the media before we'll really know.


Amen, again.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (31 Aug 2018)

I keep getting tempted to sign up just so I can reply to some of the comments on these sites, but in the end know it's futile.
There are some really disturbed and angry people in this world.


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## Drago (31 Aug 2018)

To be fair even The Guardian have been bad of late for febrile comments by users. Something about newspapers that makes their readers become slavering loons. Youd think theyd have learned from a certain referendum in 2016 that calling people childish names makes them even more determined to do something you don't want them to do, but the message seems to have gone unheeded in tomes of all stripe.


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## jarlrmai (31 Aug 2018)

[QUOTE 5367243, member: 9609"]I doubt the speed of the bike was above 30, and if it had been a fully licenced motorbike and the rider had stayed at the scene then probably no offence committed (i totally agree with others that no mater what, and esp in a built up area drivers/rides should just be able to stop) the poor lady did appear to run out rather sharpish, I hope she makes a good recovery. Pity the lad had not stayed at the scene he would of had a lot more sympathy.

I guess the speed of these bikes will take people by surprise, a quick glance and you see a cyclist some distance away and think you have plenty of time, but not realising it could be travelling at the speed of a motorbike.[/QUOTE]

30 is almost double the legal motor cutoff speed for an ebike, a pro cyclist could probably get 30mph out of one without the motor.

If he was driving an unlimited ebike then he is as guilty as a person riding a bike with no brakes or an uninsured moped.

is there a mirror of the video that's on on The S**'s website?


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## lane (31 Aug 2018)

Drago said:


> Difficult to be sure, but seems the poor lady may be at fault. That said, a bike pilot should be aware that peds do the damndest things and be riding within their ability to stop in case the worst should happen.
> 
> I guess we'll have to wait for the Bow Street Runners to finish their investigation and see if they release any details to the media before we'll really know.



I thought the pedestrian was also partly at fault in the Allison case, but that didn't stop the cyclist involved going to prison due to an illegal bike. What would constitute the ability to stop in case the worst should happen - if someone steps out right in front of a cyclist I don't see how that is practicable? When driving, providing I am within the speed limit (allowing for the conditions) and my car is legal, I am paying attention and did my best to stop, if I hit a pedestrian who walked out in front of me my assumption is that I would not have liability. Does the same not apply to a cyclist?


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## jarlrmai (31 Aug 2018)

Legal grey areas "allowing for the conditions" could this include pedestrians on the pavement who could enter the roadway at anytime, no-one would assume so for cars but people bought it up a lot for the Alliston case, i.e. riding in a way to be able to cope with pedestrians who might just walk from the pavement straight in-front of you.


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## Drago (31 Aug 2018)

If it is an unlimited ebike he'll get knocked off for all the document offences, no insurance, presumably driving otherwise in accordance with a licence. Dangerous driving is an interesting one- a crime can be guilty of dangerous driving solely by the state of the vehicle, even if their actual driving itself is exemplary. *if* it is an ebike wound up to 11, but without the requisite standard of brakes, lighting, horn, even tyres with the requisite markings, the Fed's might try and persuade the CPS that it's DD by virtue of that alone.

But i know firet hand that these investigations are ballache that can drag on for months. Something as simple as finding a vehicle examiner who is qualified and certified to the evidential standard required for a prosecution is a serious nightmare (there are entire policing regions that do not have a single one), but hopefully the Met will have enough resources.

So many possibilities and permutations, we will see soon enough so guess.



jarlrmai said:


> Legal grey areas "allowing for the conditions" could this include pedestrians on the pavement who could enter the roadway at anytime, no-one would assume so for cars but people bought it up a lot for the Alliston case, i.e. riding in a way to be able to cope with pedestrians who might just walk from the pavement straight in-front of you.



It's unusual, but it does happen. I've known of a lady who knocked over a kiddie and a parent outside a school. She was not speeding, but successfully got knocked off for careless for travelling at a speed inappropriate to the conditions. The police make far more notice of that quirk than the public do, and the media do report upon it, but few read it and take any notice.


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## Phaeton (31 Aug 2018)

Why are we all assuming that it's an illegally de-restricted e-bike? Purely because he did a runner? 

From comparing his speed with the laden cyclist in front of him he didn't seem to be travelling 'that' quick, assume the other cyclist doing 8mph, he was doing 15mph looks about right. 

Caveat I'm not defending him, just asking like.


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## Drago (31 Aug 2018)

We're not assuming. No one so had said outright that it is while holding a bible. It is being discussed as a possibility.


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## lane (31 Aug 2018)

jarlrmai said:


> Legal grey areas "allowing for the conditions" could this include pedestrians on the pavement who could enter the roadway at anytime, no-one would assume so for cars but people bought it up a lot for the Alliston case, i.e. riding in a way to be able to cope with pedestrians who might just walk from the pavement straight in-front of you.



Double standards with cyclists held to a higher standard than motorists, which is clearly bonkers when considering relative consequences.


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## Milkfloat (31 Aug 2018)

A few interesting questions spring to mind after seeing the video:
1.) If the bike had been a car, would it have made the news and had the same level of vitriol against the driver?
2.) If the bike had been a car would the driver have been arrested?
3.) If the pedestrian had been a cyclist and the cyclist a car driver, would the car driver be getting a medal?
4.) Did the cyclist do a runner because he was worried about a lynching?
5.) If the bike was stolen AND not road legal could the cyclist mitigate by saying he did not know it was not road legal because it was his?


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## jarlrmai (31 Aug 2018)

Yeah mainly because he ran to be honest, also probably because we are interested in it from a "legal precedent" fashion especially in the light of the Alliston case.

There had been a lot of discussion when ebikes were generally new about what would happen if someone riding one, especially an unrestricted one hit someone, basically about how this would be thrown on the bonfire of "bad cyclists"


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## mjr (31 Aug 2018)

mjr said:


> For that reason, I'd say it looks like both at fault. There is also fleeing the scene and possibly having a modified e-bike.


I've been reminded on another forum that there's currently no legal requirement for a cyclist to remain at the scene, unlike motorists... but if the e-bike was modified, technically he might be an unlicensed motorist, which opens a can of worms.


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## Phaeton (31 Aug 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> A few interesting questions spring to mind after seeing the video:





Milkfloat said:


> 1.) If the bike had been a car, would it have made the news and had the same level of vitriol against the driver?


Nope


Milkfloat said:


> 2.) If the bike had been a car would the driver have been arrested?


If he failed to stay at the scene


Milkfloat said:


> 3.) If the pedestrian had been a cyclist and the cyclist a car driver, would the car driver be getting a medal?


Total ballcocks of a question


Milkfloat said:


> 4.) Did the cyclist do a runner because he was worried about a lynching?


Nope because he has no morals, see reply by @mjr lower, he actually has no legal obligation to stay, but in my mind he has a moral reason to stay.


Milkfloat said:


> 5.) If the bike was stolen AND not road legal could the cyclist mitigate by saying he did not know it was not road legal because it was his?


Ignorance is not a defence


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## User269 (31 Aug 2018)

No doubt the press et al will keep it in perspective and highlight the facts;

Each year;


Pedestrians killed by cyclists 2


Pedestrians seriously injured by cyclists 48



Pedestrians killed by motorists 388


Pedestrians seriously injured by motorists 5138


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## T4tomo (31 Aug 2018)

Taking fleeing the scene aside, the lad on the W bike hasn’t done much wrong, it’s a green light for him, he didn’t appear to be going particularly quickly, he’s in primary, not hugging the kerb, and the poor lady darts out in front of him and keeps going Into him. Not much sign of eveading action from either party, possibly neither saw each other until impact


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## MiK1138 (31 Aug 2018)

Ratbag Sun "The crash on Tuesday evening follows a NUMBER of fatal collisions between cyclists and pedestrians in recent years." then proceeds to list one, well I suppose 1 is a number


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## Nigel-YZ1 (31 Aug 2018)

MiK1138 said:


> Ratbag Sun "The crash on Tuesday evening follows a NUMBER of fatal collisions between cyclists and pedestrians in recent years." then proceeds to list one, well I suppose 1 is a number



Truth is always secondary to sales.
Anyway if they can tout any law changes they outrage anyone into, it will highlight 'the power of the press'... and increase sales.


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## fossyant (31 Aug 2018)

Cyclist hits pedestrian, rare, but front page news. Driver hits pedestrian/cyclist, very common, never mentioned. Unfortunately, any fall can result in severe injury. Punched to ground can kill. Getting hit by a car when you are only cycling at 13mph can snap your spine in two.


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## Blue Hills (31 Aug 2018)

mjr said:


> I've been reminded on another forum that there's currently no legal requirement for a cyclist to remain at the scene, unlike motorists...



Surprising/interesting. Can Drago enlighten us?

Haven't looked in detail at this case I admit, though is true that pedestrians quite often do the damnest things. Crossing Tower Bridge a couple of weeks ago a bloke ran out right in front of me. I jammed on the brakes as I screamed at him. He gave me a foul look as if I was over-reacting and should instead have reached for/tingled my bell. Then ran across the road through another line of traffic and with a look of triumph vaulted a barrier.

It is true that peds often don't seem to see cyclists. Not too sure what can be done about that.

Whatever the strict legalese situation, the chap was daft to scarper for sure.


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## Pale Rider (31 Aug 2018)

Hard to judge his speed, but he was cracking on a bit.

Faster than I reckon I would go in those conditions.

Also hard to see what type of bike it was.

Looks like it may have a large rear hub motor, which makes it a Specialized push bike that's been converted rather than a Specialized factory made ebike.

The conversion could be road legal or not, but the speed of the bike rather suggests to me it was derestricted and/or over powered.


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## MontyVeda (31 Aug 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> A few interesting questions spring to mind after seeing the video:
> 1.) If the bike had been a car, would it have made the news and had the same level of vitriol against the driver?
> 2.) If the bike had been a car would the driver have been arrested?
> ...


There was a hit and run last week in town. The driver has now been found and a young woman is still in hospital with serious injuries. Judging by the comments on the local facebook group, it's a definite yes to number one... and he has been arrested.


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## boydj (31 Aug 2018)

Pale Rider said:


> Hard to judge his speed, but he was cracking on a bit.
> 
> Faster than I reckon I would go in those conditions.
> 
> ...



Regardless of the speed he was doing, the lady gave him no chance to avoid her. She pretty well ran into him. I doubt the guy was thinking straight, between the adrenaline and the head knock that he appears to have taken, and that could be part of the reason why he walked off eventually.

No doubt if the bike is illegal he'll have the book thrown at him, but I think the blame lies mostly with the lady and the rider is fortunate there is CCTV of the incident.


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## Phaeton (31 Aug 2018)

boydj said:


> Regardless of the speed he was doing, the lady gave him no chance to avoid her. She pretty well ran into him. I doubt the guy was thinking straight, between the adrenaline and the head knock that he appears to have taken, and that could be part of the reason why he walked off eventually.


There can be no good reason why he walked away


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## mjr (1 Sep 2018)

Phaeton said:


> There can be no good reason why he walked away


Fear of getting lynched not good enough?


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## Phaeton (1 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> Fear of getting lynched not good enough?


No, if that was a fear then he would have dumped the bike, ran & gone straight to a Police station if he could find one open


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## Smudge (5 Sep 2018)

Having watched this vid he is travelling at a fair rate. As he has a mountain bike, which i would presume has low gearing, would he be able to pedal this speed over the supposed 15.5 mph motor cut out speed of legal Ebikes ?
Also, its highly suspicious he wanted to leave the scene and even more suspicious he wanted to take an unrideable, heavy Ebike with him. The weight of carrying it was probably what made him dump it.
I've watched this vid over and over again.... and it looks like an Ekit with a rear wheel hub motor has been fitted to this bike. From the small partial view i can see of this motor, it looks like its possibly a large diameter motor. Certainly larger than the legal 250W hub motors.


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## Phaeton (5 Sep 2018)

Any update on the ladies condition?


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## numbnuts (5 Sep 2018)

Phaeton said:


> Any update on the ladies condition?


I was only thinking of this yesterday, she is obviously still alive as she was on a life support machine and they don't keep them on there forever it is all gone very quiet, hope she makes a full recovery.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (5 Sep 2018)

With my cynical mode switched on - I'm thinking that either the bike was stolen or had an illegal mod so the tabloids have decided there's no mileage in stirring anti-cyclist hate.


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## Phaeton (5 Sep 2018)

numbnuts said:


> hope she makes a full recovery.


So do i


Nigel-YZ1 said:


> With my cynical mode switched on - I'm thinking that either the bike was stolen or had an illegal mod so the tabloids have decided there's no mileage in stirring anti-cyclist hate.


Think if it had an illegal mod they would have continued, more likely of uncertain origin


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## glasgowcyclist (5 Sep 2018)

Blue Hills said:


> Surprising/interesting. Can Drago enlighten us?



All there is is S168 RTA 1988 *Failure to give, or giving false, name and address in case of reckless or careless or inconsiderate driving or cycling.*

_Any of the following persons— 

(a) the driver of a mechanically propelled vehicle]who is alleged to have committed an offence under section 2 or 3 of this Act, or_

_(b) the rider of a cycle who is alleged to have committed an offence under section 28 or 29 of this Act [_dangerous or careless cycling respectively_], who refuses, on being so required by any person having reasonable ground for so requiring, to give his name or address, or gives a false name or address, is guilty of an offence. _​Edited to add: I note reports state the man was also arrested on suspicion of failing to stop and failing to report. I can't find any legislation where these obligations apply in collisions involving non-motorised vehicles so I can only presume that the e-bike falls into the category of motor vehicle because it is not compliant with the EAPC regulations.


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## Smudge (5 Sep 2018)

As i can see a partial view of what looks like a large rear hub motor..... I think there's a good chance the bike has been fitted with a powerful non road legal Ekit, maybe 1000w or possibly even higher wattage. I'm convinced its not a road legal 250w kit.
I suspect thats why he wanted to leave the scene and take the bike with him, to remove the evidence. 

If this turns out to be the case, then he'll have all sorts of charges thrown at him.


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## mustang1 (5 Sep 2018)

Milkfloat said:


> *After The Allison case I can see why they did not hang around and did a runner. I *personally would not be able to do that and I hope the pedestrian recovers soon. I hope that more facts come to light quickly before the comments section of the media go into overdrive. It does look to be on a pedestrian crossing, for the cyclist’s sake I hope the lights were on green.


what's the alison case?


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## Smudge (5 Sep 2018)

mustang1 said:


> what's the alison case?



https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian


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## mjr (5 Sep 2018)

Smudge said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian


...give or take a typo of his name...


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## mustang1 (5 Sep 2018)

Smudge said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian


Oh that guy .


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## mustang1 (5 Sep 2018)

fossyant said:


> Cyclist hits pedestrian, rare, but front page news. Driver hits pedestrian/cyclist, very common, never mentioned. Unfortunately, any fall can result in severe injury. Punched to ground can kill. Getting hit by a car when you are only cycling at 13mph can snap your spine in two.


Same thing as 
kill many = hero, 
kill one = murderer


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## mustang1 (5 Sep 2018)

boydj said:


> Regardless of the speed he was doing, the lady gave him no chance to avoid her. She pretty well ran into him. I doubt the guy was thinking straight, between the adrenaline and the head knock that he appears to have taken, and that could be part of the reason why he walked off eventually.
> 
> No doubt if the bike is illegal he'll have the book thrown at him, but I think the blame lies mostly with the lady and the rider is fortunate there is CCTV of the incident.



The headline should have been:

Numpty pedestrian seriously injures herself after running into cyclist and causes him injury. Pedestrian seriously in


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## jarlrmai (6 Sep 2018)

mustang1 said:


> The headline should have been:
> 
> Numpty pedestrian seriously injures herself after running into cyclist and causes him injury. Pedestrian seriously in



You're not helping here mate.


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## wheresthetorch (12 Sep 2018)

Sadly it's just been reported that the pedestrian has died. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45497026


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## glasgowcyclist (12 Sep 2018)

wheresthetorch said:


> Sadly it's just been reported that the pedestrian has died.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-45497026




Ah, that's awful.


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## mjr (12 Sep 2018)

Yes, it's awful. The reporting's very bad too.


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## T4tomo (12 Sep 2018)

I thought the BBC article was quite balanced. It identified Ebike vs regular and the fact the fact that only 3 of 400 odd ped deaths involved a cycle.


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## mjr (12 Sep 2018)

T4tomo said:


> I thought the BBC article was quite balanced. It identified Ebike vs regular and the fact the fact that only 3 of 400 odd ped deaths involved a cycle.


Then I think your compass has been tilted by how anti-cycling reporting usually is! It's biased because:
 it puts "hit-and-run" in the headline and calls it "a suspected hit-and-run" in the first paragraph when there's no such criminal offence for cycling;
 it says the walker was "struck by" the cyclist - something that they often refuse to do when a motorist hits a cyclist, preferring at best something like "cyclist killed in collision with van" (making the cyclist the lead actor and ignoring any driver's involvement);
 it makes no mention of the CCTV showing the walker crossing against the lights into the path of plainly-visible approaching cyclists;
 it mentions the barely-related Alliston case - so far, there's no official mention that the Specialized e-MTB wasn't road-legal IIRC;
 it perpetuates the myths that law becomes bad merely by being old and that dangerous driving is a good offence (despite the far higher numbers of motoring-caused deaths...);
 it mentions that only 3 of 400 odd walker deaths involved a cycle but doesn't mention what kills the overwhelming majority of walkers.
And that's just the obvious stuff.


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## Phaeton (12 Sep 2018)

T4tomo said:


> I thought the BBC article was quite balanced. It identified Ebike vs regular and the fact the fact that only 3 of 400 odd ped deaths involved a cycle.


Just to give it perspective I'm much in the same vein as yourself, didn't think it was that bad


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## numbnuts (12 Sep 2018)

Luckily the Mail is not allowing comments which makes a change
RIP to the lady


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## jarlrmai (12 Sep 2018)

Do we know yet if this was a legal eBike or not yet?


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## mjr (12 Sep 2018)

jarlrmai said:


> Do we know yet if this was a legal eBike or not yet?


NAFAIK. We now know it was a Specialized and they do at least make e-MTBs, so there's a chance it was legal... but it could have been modified, of course.


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## classic33 (12 Sep 2018)

mjr said:


> Then I think your compass has been tilted by how anti-cycling reporting usually is! It's biased because:
> it puts "hit-and-run" in the headline and calls it "a suspected hit-and-run" in the first paragraph when there's no such criminal offence for cycling;
> it says the walker was "struck by" the cyclist - something that they often refuse to do when a motorist hits a cyclist, preferring at best something like "cyclist killed in collision with van" (making the cyclist the lead actor and ignoring any driver's involvement);
> it makes no mention of the CCTV showing the walker crossing against the lights into the path of plainly-visible approaching cyclists;
> ...


A woman lies dead, the result of a hit and run, and you complain about how it's been worded. Have some respect for her and her family.


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## DaveReading (12 Sep 2018)

classic33 said:


> A woman lies dead, the result of a hit and run, and you complain about how it's been worded. Have some respect for her and her family.



I'd have thought that, given the outcome, it would be a pretty good idea to report the facts correctly.


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## Joey Shabadoo (13 Sep 2018)

A little bit of fag packet arithmetic says if he was doing 15mph and weighed approx 90kg with the bike weighing 23kg he hit her with a force of 2948N or 300kgf- that's pretty substantial and it's little wonder her injuries were so bad. 

If he were doing 20 mph, the impact would have been 3960N or 403 kgf.

To put that in perspective, a bullet hits with a force of 1218N or 124 kgf.

(somebody better with numbers may come along and correct this)


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## numbnuts (16 Sep 2018)

It looks like his bike may have been legal, I'm sure the papers would have said
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...green-trendy-week-claimed-British-victim.html


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## Smudge (16 Sep 2018)

numbnuts said:


> It looks like his bike may have been legal, I'm sure the papers would have said
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...green-trendy-week-claimed-British-victim.html



Maybe the press just dont know anything about his Ebike yet, so there isn't anything they can report about it yet. It seems strange to me that the police haven't said anything at all about this case since arresting this guy shortly after the incident.


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## classic33 (16 Sep 2018)

Smudge said:


> Maybe the press just dont know anything about his Ebike yet, so there isn't anything they can report about it yet. It seems strange to me that the police haven't said anything at all about this case since arresting this guy shortly after the incident.


The lady has since died.


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## Smudge (16 Sep 2018)

classic33 said:


> The lady has since died.



I've been aware of that since it was reported days ago.


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## classic33 (16 Sep 2018)

Smudge said:


> I've been aware of that since it was reported days ago.


The charge against the rider may change as a result, which might also explain why they've(police) have remained quiet. Other than trying to locate the rider and anyone who may have seen it happen.


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## Smudge (16 Sep 2018)

classic33 said:


> The charge against the rider may change as a result, which might also explain why they've(police) have remained quiet. Other than trying to locate the rider and anyone who may have seen it happen.



Yes any charges could change and have more added..... especially if they find evidence that the Ebike is not road legal.


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## NickWi (22 Oct 2019)

E-bike rider charged with causing death by dangerous driving with the prosecution asserting that the bicycle exceeded permitted power limits.
https://road.cc/content/news/267863...ed-causing-death-pedestrian-dangerous-driving

I do remember this incident being reported. It happened August 18 and from what I recall the pedestrian dashed onto a crossing without looking properly, the ebike was going quite fast, the rider not pedalling and the rider did a runner after hitting her. I'm sure it must have been discussed on this forum at the time, but I can't find the tread if it was. If anyone can find it, can you resurrect it so we keep continuity.

Whether the rider is proved guilty or not , it does show to those that want more power/speed and are prepared to fit dongles, more powerful motors, throttles etc; if/when the sh*t hits the fan the Police will use their resources to pursue the case.


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## derrick (22 Oct 2019)

NickWi said:


> E-bike rider charged with causing death by dangerous driving with the prosecution asserting that the bicycle exceeded permitted power limits.
> https://road.cc/content/news/267863...ed-causing-death-pedestrian-dangerous-driving
> 
> I do remember this incident being reported. It happened August 18 and from what I recall the pedestrian dashed onto a crossing without looking properly, the ebike was going quite fast, the rider not pedalling and the rider did a runner after hitting her. I'm sure it must have been discussed on this forum at the time, but I can't find the tread if it was. If anyone can find it, can you resurrect it so we keep continuity.
> ...


Be interesting to here from battery boy on this.


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## fossyant (22 Oct 2019)

It's an un-insured/taxed 'motorbike'.


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## Milkfloat (22 Oct 2019)

I remember the case too - and from the comments recall that the rider did not stand much of a chance in avoiding the pedestrian. Although they were going pretty fast, it was not a crazy speed, but probably inappropriate for an urban area. If they were not without a license, uninsured and untaxed and did not do a runner then I suspect it would be chalked up to just another accident, despite the skewed views of 'blame the cyclist' that prevails.


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## I like Skol (22 Oct 2019)

fossyant said:


> It's an un-insured/taxed 'motorbike'.


Hopefully a landmark case and support for the argument against the removal/reduction of restrictions for e-bikes (which I happen to agree with).

There are already more than enough people driving around unlicensed and uninsured without providing legitimisation for more of the same on super strength e-bikes!

"Nathan Rasiah, prosecuting, told the court: “In this case the evidence suggests it was travelling in excess of the road limit and the limit for the bike."
Makes you wonder just how fast the rider was travelling, 20+mph, 30+mph? I know the speed limit doesn't apply to a pedal cycle, but the vehicle in this case appears to fall well outside the definition of 'pedal cycle'. The speed and danger of using a powered vehicle is the reason licencing exists, so drivers can hopefully show that they have some restraint and concept of the dangers before they are let loose.....


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## derrick (22 Oct 2019)

Milkfloat said:


> I remember the case too - and from the comments recall that the rider did not stand much of a chance in avoiding the pedestrian. Although they were going pretty fast, it was not a crazy speed, _*but probably inappropriate for an urban area.*_ If they were not without a license, uninsured and untaxed and did not do a runner then I suspect it would be chalked up to just another accident, despite the skewed views of 'blame the cyclist' that prevails.


That says it all.


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## I like Skol (22 Oct 2019)

fossyant said:


> It's an un-insured/taxed 'motorbike'.


Actually Fossy, I think you are missing the point. It's an uninsured/unlicensed driver, the tax thing is irrelevant.


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## derrick (22 Oct 2019)

The sooner they start licencing these things the better.


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## Phaeton (22 Oct 2019)

derrick said:


> The sooner they start licencing these things the better.


Please sign here


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## gbb (22 Oct 2019)

Without prejudging any circumstances in the case, locally, for a while at least I used to see a fella on an ebike doing easy 30 mph, maybe more, it genuinely surprised me how much ground he was covering....silently. Anyone crossing the road absent mindedly hasn't got a chance of being pre warned and is going to get a hell of a hit off something travelling that fast. Stupidity, if nothing else, the brakes couldn't possibly be that effective at that speed.


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## Scaleyback (22 Oct 2019)

derrick said:


> The sooner they start licencing these things the better.



I read your post on a thread recently where a member was refused entry into the etape-loch-ness-2019 sportive because he wanted to ride an ebike. I think the mods have deleted this thread due to 'sniping' by you and others to the effect that ebikes on Sportives shouldn't be allowed. You said on this thread " I have nothing against ebikes" Your comments here and on many others threads I have read show me (and I hope many others) that you do indeed " have something against ebikes " I am thinking you feel a little 'threatened' by ebikes and consequently their riders. Bit sad really but you are not alone.


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## Milkfloat (22 Oct 2019)

gbb said:


> Without prejudging any circumstances in the case, locally, for a while at least I used to see a fella on an ebike doing easy 30 mph, maybe more, it genuinely surprised me how much ground he was covering....silently. Anyone crossing the road absent mindedly hasn't got a chance of being pre warned and is going to get a hell of a hit off something travelling that fast. Stupidity, if nothing else, the brakes couldn't possibly be that effective at that speed.



I would argue the same is true for electric cars, although the stopping distance is even higher. It is inappropriate speed that is the problem.


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## I like Skol (22 Oct 2019)

It isn't the speed itself that is the problem. I often exceed 30mph on my leg powered pedal cycle, in fact, on almost every ride. I'm also a driver with considerable and varied experience and I consider myself to have adequate road hazard awareness which transfers nicely to my cycling.
I'm not advocating that only drivers should be allowed to cycle or that all cyclists should be licensed. In the natural order of things, for a cyclist to reach higher speeds normally takes one of two things.

Fitness, which in turn infers a certain amount of experience on the rider, and an awareness of the speed due to the effort required to achieve it.
Plummeting down a big hill, which again usually makes the rider acutely aware of the speed and risks.
Sitting an untrained, unlicensed person on an ebike that can achieve 30mph on the flat with no or very little effort from the rider is a recipe for disaster. The person will have very little awareness of the speed they are picking up and the difficulty of stopping or turning in an emergency.
15mph is plenty (about as fast as you can run). And if you do go faster then you need to be very focused on the risks and act appropriately.


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## derrick (22 Oct 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I read your post on a thread recently where a member was refused entry into the etape-loch-ness-2019 sportive because he wanted to ride an ebike. I think the mods have deleted this thread due to 'sniping' by you and others to the effect that ebikes on Sportives shouldn't be allowed. You said on this thread " I have nothing against ebikes" Your comments here and on many others threads I have read show me (and I hope many others) that you do indeed " have something against ebikes " I am thinking you feel a little 'threatened' by ebikes and consequently their riders. Bit sad really but you are not alone.


I have no problem with ebikes. But not for sportives mixed with normal bikes.


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## Slick (22 Oct 2019)

derrick said:


> I have no problem with evokes. But not for sportives mixed with normal bikes.


Obviously tosh, perfectly reasonable to mix them both.


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## I like Skol (22 Oct 2019)

Let's not get distracted from the main point here. The family of the deceased has suffered a terrible and probably avoidable loss. Had the rider been cycling within the law I suspect Ms Cihan would have survived.


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## Slick (22 Oct 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Let's not get distracted from the main point here. The family of the deceased has suffered a terrible and probably avoidable loss. Had the rider been cycling within the law I suspect Ms Cihan would have survived.


Pretty much the crux of the matter.


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## fossyant (22 Oct 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Actually Fossy, I think you are missing the point. It's an uninsured/unlicensed driver, the tax thing is irrelevant.



Sort of what I meant.


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## Smudge (22 Oct 2019)

I remember this incident a year ago and at the time i posted on this forum that i believed the bike was a powerful non road legal ebike. The rider fled from the scene of the accident and tried to take his bike with him, which is suspicious in itself. He then dumped the bike and from the pics of it it looked like a large hub motor, bigger than the legal 250w ones.


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## Pale Rider (22 Oct 2019)

I like Skol said:


> Let's not get distracted from the main point here. The family of the deceased has suffered a terrible and probably avoidable loss. Had the rider been cycling within the law I suspect Ms Cihan would have survived.



Possibly, although a heavy ebike at 12 or 14mph could cause significant injury.


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## derrick (22 Oct 2019)

Scaleyback said:


> I read your post on a thread recently where a member was refused entry into the etape-loch-ness-2019 sportive because he wanted to ride an ebike. I think the mods have deleted this thread due to 'sniping' by you and others to the effect that ebikes on Sportives shouldn't be allowed. You said on this thread " I have nothing against ebikes" Your comments here and on many others threads I have read show me (and I hope many others) that you do indeed " have something against ebikes "* I am thinking you feel a little 'threatened' by ebikes and consequently their riders. Bit sad really* but you are not alone.


Can you explain being threatened by ebilkes. Why would I see them as a threat?


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## I like Skol (22 Oct 2019)

I'm not a slow rider. Just a couple of months ago, when riding home from work at 1am I collided with an intoxicated pedestrian that stepped from behind a parked vehicle straight into my path. I hit them at full speed with just a split second to react. I checked my GPS logs afterwards and I was travelling just under 20mph at the time. After discussing it we all walked/rode away from the incident relatively unscathed (though I bet he was sore when he woke/sobered up the next morning!)
Had I been barreling along near silently at 30+ mph on an ebike it could have been a very different outcome.
Leg power is fast enough and if they want to go faster then get a licence and insurance.


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## Pale Rider (22 Oct 2019)

derrick said:


> Can you explain being threatened by ebilkes. Why would I see them as a threat?



I wonder what an ebilke is

Electronic making off without payment?


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## Smudge (22 Oct 2019)

Here's the original thread from over a year ago about this incident.....

https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/another-pedestrian-injured-by-cyclist.239537/


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## NickWi (22 Oct 2019)

Okay, we've found the original thread. I've cut & paste the original statement to that thread. Can we carry on the discussion from there please.


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## I like Skol (22 Oct 2019)

@Moderators please can the threads be merged?


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## glasgowcyclist (22 Oct 2019)

derrick said:


> The sooner they start licencing these things the better.



They already require a licence, hence the various RTA charges.


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## Drago (22 Oct 2019)

These parts will get all ebike banned the way they carry on.


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## Smudge (22 Oct 2019)

If this does transpire to be a non road legal ebike, and i highly suspect it is, especially as the CPS have ok'd the charges of 'causing death while unlicensed and causing death while uninsured'..... then i hope if he's convicted that they give him the highest sentence possible. Mainly for the family of this poor woman that lost her life, but it will also hopefully put a strong message out about riding these non road legal ebikes.


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## Scaleyback (22 Oct 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> They already require a licence, hence the various RTA charges.



Hmm ! I don’t think derrick was referring to illegal ebikes, I think he means they should licence all ebikes.


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## icowden (22 Oct 2019)

mjr said:


> It puts "hit-and-run" in the headline and calls it "a suspected hit-and-run" in the first paragraph when there's no such criminal offence for cycling



To be fair to the journalist, there is no such criminal offence for vehicles either. The offence for vehicles is:-

*Fail to stop/report road accident (Revised 2017)*
Road Traffic Act 1988, s.170(4)

Hit and run is just a description. In addition the Act refers to the Driver of a "mechanically propelled vehicle". There is no stipulation that this cannot be an electric bike. It could be an interesting test case if the e-bike has been modified to be mechanically propelled (as was suggested in the article).


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## Pale Rider (23 Oct 2019)

glasgowcyclist said:


> They already require a licence, hence the various RTA charges.



The wording of the most serious death by dangerous charge is that 'you drove a mechanically propelled vehicle dangerously'.

'Mechanically propelled' for this purpose includes an electric motor.

There is no mention in that charge of the legality of the vehicle - that's covered elsewhere.

It seems to me that a rider of a legal ebike could be in line for death by dangerous if he knocked someone over and killed them.

What if the accident happened while the rider was riding above the cut off limit or freewheeling down hill.

Is the vehicle still 'mechanically propelled'?

A death by push cycling law was under consideration last year, but I don't think it's reached the statute books yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45154708


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## IanSmithCSE (23 Oct 2019)

Good morning,

There is a reason why the linked to site is not accepting comments, it is an ongoing case. :-)

I have flagged this for moderator's attention as posters need to be very careful what they say.

Bye

Ian


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## Drago (23 Oct 2019)

What is it about our culture that makes riding an internal combustion motorcycle without the requisite licence a naughty thing to do, but an electric powered motorcycle ok so long as you don't get caught?


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## Smudge (23 Oct 2019)

Drago said:


> What is it about our culture that makes riding an internal combustion motorcycle without the requisite licence a naughty thing to do, but an electric powered motorcycle ok so long as you don't get caught?



Many people seem to think that riding these illegal ebikes on the road, and other places that are used by the public, is perfectly acceptable. They will freely admit that they do this, because so far, there has been very little chance of being caught.


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## Phaeton (23 Oct 2019)

Smudge said:


> Many people seem to think that riding these illegal ebikes on the road, and other places that are used by the public, is perfectly acceptable. They will freely admit that they do this, because so far, there has been very little chance of being caught.


It's not just these ebikes is it, it seems to be all vehicles, I was going to pick the wife up on Sunday from her friends, i was in a 30mph zone when suddenly a car overtook 4-6 cars coming the other way, they must have been doing 60-70mph on my side of the road. They knew they could because there's nobody whose going to stop them, there's no Police on the road & very very few people would give chase & confront them.


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## Moderators (23 Oct 2019)

I like Skol said:


> @Moderators please can the threads be merged?


Now merged.


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