# FFWD F6R vs Campag Bullet vs Mavic Carbon Pro



## bpsmith (28 Nov 2015)

Have narrowed down my choices to the above wheels. Has anyone any experience with any of them, that wouldn't mind sharing their findings?

Am kind of seeing them in the above order at present, after starting out with the Bullet's in mind.


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## Pro Tour Punditry (28 Nov 2015)

Immediate response would be Bullets, then FFWD then Mavics.


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## Citius (28 Nov 2015)

If you're looking for expensive, heavy wheels, then they all fit the bill...


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## bpsmith (28 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> If you're looking for expensive, heavy wheels, then they all fit the bill...


Useful as ever. 

How about adding some value by suggesting something else?


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## Citius (28 Nov 2015)

How about something lighter and cheaper? Or explaining what your intended use is? Better get your answer in quick before jowwy comes along and tells you to just buy wheels that make you happy.


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## bpsmith (28 Nov 2015)

The wheels are all 50-60mm aero wheels. I am aiming to gain and keep speed up on flat runs strangely enough.

Sadly aero, cheap and lighter don't add up to a real product as yet.


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## huwsparky (28 Nov 2015)

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPPX52CCL/planet-x-52mm-carbon-clincher-wheelset


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## bpsmith (28 Nov 2015)

huwsparky said:


> http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPPX52CCL/planet-x-52mm-carbon-clincher-wheelset


Good price, fair play. Prefer the look of the others though.


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## huwsparky (28 Nov 2015)

I think you've answered your own question. Buy the ones you prefer the look of in that case. Think PX also make them with no stickers on if that helps.


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## Citius (28 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Prefer the look of the others though.



In which case, nobody here can advise you.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> In which case, nobody here can advise you.


Unless, of course, somebody has experience of any of the 3 wheelsets and then answers the actual question I raised.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

But you've already said that appearance is important, so just buy the set (out of the three you've already posted) which you think looks the nicest.

There are cheap, light, aero wheels out there. The only variables are 'how cheap', 'how light' and 'how aero'.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> But you've already said that appearance is important, so just buy the set (out of the three you've already posted) which you think looks the nicest.
> 
> There are cheap, light, aero wheels out there. The only variables are 'how cheap', 'how light' and 'how aero'.


Looks are part of it for me, yes, but an answer from someone with experience would give me more to go on than looks alone.

Give an example of a smart looking cheap, light, aero wheel?


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## vickster (29 Nov 2015)

Define cheap and light


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Give an example of a smart looking cheap, light, aero wheel?



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/21mm-Widt...Matt-Wheel-Set-Basalt-Rim-Brake-/151627870434


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Do the wheels need to have alu rims? That's where the extra weight is coming from. Another consideration would be maintenance. Are replacement spokes and rims easily available for these wheels? I've got a set of Fulcrum 1's with quite worn brake tracks but there aren't any replacement rims out there so the wheels are unusable. Fulcrum will happily rebuild them, they won't sell the rims, for about the same price as brand new Zero's!! They also use 16/21 spoke count, meaning it is near impossible finding an alternative rim to rebuild the hubs with. 

I pointed this out to a friend recently who was interested in buying Zipp or Enve carbon clicnhers. Sure you can afford them in the sale but if you crack a rim, or damage it in anyway, can you afford to replace?? These days i tend to factor in service-ability too. I cracked my wheelsmith 38mm carbon tubular front wheel and had to get it replaced and rebuilt. Total cost was £218. It's an expense that you could do without but it is affordable. 

I will point out a few sites where you might find their wheels interesting. Do with as you please.........

Wheelsmith carbon Aero 38 - 50 -60

Wheelsmith 45 - 58 dimpled

Superstar components wheelbuilder page - customise your wheels by picking rims, spokes and hubs - currently 25% off until midnight. Serious value!! 

Note on Superstar: I specced C66 carbon rims (20/24) with sapim laser spokes and awesome DTSwiss 240 hubs, all for £554.99. Usual price of £740!! Bargain with serious hubs. I just bought Pacenti sl23's from them for a bargain price using this discount. 

If you are insistent on the wheels you listed then...............i'd favour the Mavic's. A mate has them and they are a little heavy but nice wheels. Well he likes them. He doesn't do hilly rides on them though.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/21mm-Widt...Matt-Wheel-Set-Basalt-Rim-Brake-/151627870434


Actually not bad looking, assuming it doesn't have Carbonzone randomly over hub and rim. Hardly that aero though?

I am not a fan of ordering from some unknown Chinese seller and waiting 6 weeks for delivery.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

vickster said:


> Define cheap and light


I assume that this is aimed at @Citius, as he started that line of discussion.


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## vickster (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> I assume that this is aimed at @Citius, as he started that line of discussion.


No, you  what's cheap and light for one might be expensive and heavy for another


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## Andrew_P (29 Nov 2015)

@Pedrosanchezo Is spot on with the service aspect also are the wheel available separately. I have had the same issue with a set of Fulcrum Zero's.

From now on its going to handbuilts for me, or at the very least a serviceable rim and or you buy just a back or a front replacement.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

vickster said:


> No, you  what's cheap and light for one might be expensive and heavy for another


I was led down that question path by the repeat offender which takes stuff off topic any time they can.

For me, I guess the acceptable weight to price trade off was the three that I listed. Out of the high street brands, they are where I am at. Don't think that I missed any? Just looking at those other links posted above. Wheelsmiths look nice so far.


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## vickster (29 Nov 2015)

I'd look for something less fugly...but then all carbon deep dish wheels are...especially for £1000, I'd want something appealing to the eye!


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> @Pedrosanchezo Is spot on with the service aspect also are the wheel available separately. I have had the same issue with a set of Fulcrum Zero's.
> 
> From now on its going to handbuilts for me, or at the very least a serviceable rim and or you buy just a back or a front replacement.



Servicability is a consideration if you plan on handing down your wheels to other family members in your will. For everyone else, wheels are a consumable commodity where good value can be had if you know where to look...


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

vickster said:


> I'd look for something less fugly...but then all carbon deep dish wheels are...especially for £1000, I'd want something appealing to the eye!


Clearly no Aero wheel of 50mm rim depth is going to suit you then. Who said anything about £1,000. I will be pay almost half that amount this long weekend.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Actually not bad looking, assuming it doesn't have Carbonzone randomly over hub and rim. Hardly that aero though?



38mm is probably the ideal compromise depth for 'real world' riding. Shallow enough to allow light weight, deep enough to provide some aero benefit.



bpsmith said:


> I am not a fan of ordering from some unknown Chinese seller and waiting 6 weeks for delivery.



Carbonzone is hardly an unknown seller. One of the longest-established Chinese sellers out there.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> 38mm is probably the ideal compromise depth for 'real world' riding. Shallow enough to allow light weight, deep enough to provide some aero benefit.
> 
> Carbonzone is hardly an unknown seller. One of the longest-established Chinese sellers out there.


I hear you, weight wise, but not a great benefit over my 26mm front and 30mm rear depth on my Zonda's.

Carbonzone have been a seller since 2010. Is 5 years the longest of all Chinese sellers of cycling kit?

Factor in customs and excise and not so cheap. What happens warranty wise?


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> I hear you, weight wise, but not a great benefit over my 26mm front and 30mm rear depth on my Zonda's



Aero benefit is pretty marginal in any case, regardless of depth. You have to weigh up the aero benefit you might or might not get against the pose factor you require.

If Carbonzone were just a bunch of crooks who never fulfilled their orders, there would be warnings about them all over cycle forums. But there aren't.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Aero benefit is pretty marginal in any case, regardless of depth. You have to weigh up the aero benefit you might or might not get against the pose factor you require.


Got to be more aero benefit with 50-60mm compared to 38mm.

Is it still pose factor, if it's for my own benefit rather than others? I want my bike to look appealing to my eyes. Not bothered what others think tbh.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Got to be more aero benefit with 50-60mm compared to 38mm.



Trivially, yes - but the (very marginal) gains are probably not worth the expense for someone who doesn't race. Which brings us back to the pose value. See below.



bpsmith said:


> Is it still pose factor, if it's for my own benefit rather than others?



Definitely. That's what posing is all about.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Servicability is a consideration if you plan on handing down your wheels to other family members in your will. For everyone else, wheels are a consumable commodity where good value can be had if you know where to look...


If you damage your rim then i'd suggest it's a big issue. Huge in fact as warranty won't cover it! Wasted money. If your hub fails then are the company you bought it from going to honour their warranty? Will it take 1 week or 6? 

Wheels can be considered consumables as much as a Specialized Venge can be. It's all down to perspective. I consider a wheelset of this worth not to be a consumable but an item than can be consistently fixed, replaced and rejuvenated. 

Hand built wheels come into their own in this regard. Especially if you pick hubs that will last a very long time. Then you can replace spokes and rims as much as you like. Even more so if you can build your own wheels.......


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Trivially, yes - but the (very marginal) gains are probably not worth the expense for someone who doesn't race. Which brings us back to the pose value. See below.
> 
> Definitely. That's what posing is all about.


So, yet again, you reckon there is no performance gain worth having.

My definition of posing must be different to yours. I see posing as openly showing off with what you have despite what you think of the object yourself. This inherently centres around what others think.

Personally, I am the opposite. I buy for what I feel or think and not bothered whether others like stuff.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

FWIW @bpsmith i find the 38mm carbon tubs i have to be the most versatile wheelset i own - in terms of performance, not practicality. 

On anything that isn't pan flat they would get me from A to B the fastest. 

I also bought the Zonda's btw, after my Fulcrum 1's were wearing, and they are an amazing wheelset for £230 - £240. As are the Pacenti Sl23's. The latter have a wider rim and are very impressive for the £££.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> FWIW @bpsmith i find the 38mm carbon tubs i have to be the most versatile wheelset i own - in terms of performance, not practicality.
> 
> On anything that isn't pan flat they would get me from A to B the fastest.
> 
> I also bought the Zonda's btw, after my Fulcrum 1's were wearing, and they are an amazing wheelset for £230 - £240. As are the Pacenti Sl23's. The latter have a wider rim and are very impressive for the £££.


So how do all of your wheels compare to the Zonda's? What sort of gains are we talking about? See, I knew there would finally be done value within the replies. Cheers!


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> So, yet again, you reckon there is no performance gain worth having.



Work it out yourself. Use the Cda data on http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsConcept_Page.html and enjoy...

If you're looking for someone to agree that buying deep sections is a fantastic idea for you, then that person is not me - unsurprisingly...


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Work it out yourself. Use the Cda data on http://www.analyticcycling.com/WheelsConcept_Page.html and enjoy...
> 
> If you're looking for someone to agree that buying deep sections is a fantastic idea for you, then that person is not me - unsurprisingly...


I wasn't looking for you, or anyone, else to agree. I was looking for someone with experience of the 3 wheels in question. It worst, was looking for someone to share their own Actual experience of aero wheels vs standard depth wheels. Not bothered about some article/study that proves only what the author wants. I thought you had grown out of such practice, but am disappointed. 

I am awaiting @Pedrosanchezo has to say about real world experiences. I regard that as a higher level, even if it is subjective, before you say that also.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Not bothered about some article/study that proves only what the author wants



You haven't even looked at it, have you? It's not an opinion article - and it doesn't prove or disprove anything - it is a series of scientific formulas which you can use to work out what your prospective gains might be. If speed gains are even remotely interesting to you, then it's probably the most useful link on this thread.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> If you damage your rim then i'd suggest it's a big issue. Huge in fact as warranty won't cover it! Wasted money. If your hub fails then are the company you bought it from going to honour their warranty? Will it take 1 week or 6?



Same for pretty much any wheels, factory-built or otherwise. At least most of the Chinese wheels are available as individual components - most of the hubs and spoke combinations they use are universally available from other vendors like DT, Sapim, Novatec, Joytech, etc...


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## Andrew_P (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> If Carbonzone were just a bunch of crooks who never fulfilled their orders, there would be warnings about them all over cycle forums. But there aren't.


What items have you bought from Carbonzone, or any other Chinese seller direct?


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> You haven't even looked at it, have you? It's not an opinion article - and it doesn't prove or disprove anything - it is a series of scientific formulas which you can use to work out what your prospective gains might be. If speed gains are even remotely interesting to you, then it's probably the most useful link on this thread.


I do believe that you pedalled that link in another thread a little while back. Recognised the URL and not going to read it again.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> What items have you bought from Carbonzone, or any other Chinese seller direct?



Wheels, frames, lights. All arrived within quoted timescales and were as advertised. Next question?


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> I do believe that you pedalled that link in another thread a little while back. Recognised the URL and not going to read it again.



What a bizarre thing to say. Obviously I can't make you read it. If you're serious about aero gains, then it's worth a read and worth doing the sums. If you're only interested in looking cool, then clearly that kind of enlightenment is not for you.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> What a bizarre thing to say. Obviously I can't make you read it. If you're serious about aero gains, then it's worth a read and worth doing the sums. If you're only interested in looking cool, then clearly that kind of enlightenment is not for you.


As stated, I have read it once. I remember it being based on a 20 year old study.

Out of interest, have you seen this very recent test?


View: http://youtu.be/pUdC3mrHcc8


Quite impressive, and hardly matches your figures.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> So how do all of your wheels compare to the Zonda's? What sort of gains are we talking about? See, I knew there would finally be done value within the replies. Cheers!


Honestly i think the Zondas are an amazing wheel for the money. Fulcrum 1's of 2010 were around 1550 grams and the Zondas are exactly that. Probably trickle down technology really. There isn't a huge difference between the likes of Zondas and Fulcrum Zeros. Weight and ceramic hubs. They are both aerodynamically similar so why pay double the price? 100 of so grams and better hubs. Both are a massive pain if you need to replace rims though. 

Something like Zondas compared to my 38mm carbon tubs. Well first off there is a quantifiable weight difference. They weigh under 1200 grams and they are aero. Put them on any bike and the difference in feel is instantly noticeable. They are quicker and they do climb better. It's not massive but then the pursuit of speed is more a combination of (dreaded phrase alert!) 'marginal gains'. Being carbon though they can crack! Hit a massive pothole at speed and you might do damage. More often than not though you will damage a spoke at worst. 

I've had 50mm carbon tubs too and i found they were actually slower of a lumpy ride. They are more aero on the flat but the reality is we live in the UK and not Australia - we have lumps, bumps and plenty of hills.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Quite impressive, and hardly matches your figures.



Firstly - they're not 'my' figures. But they are scientifically arrived at. Maybe those Zipps should be on your list? They sound completely awesome.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Same for pretty much any wheels, factory-built or otherwise. At least most of the Chinese wheels are available as individual components - most of the hubs and spoke combinations they use are universally available from other vendors like DT, Sapim, Novatec, Joytech, etc...


I suppose it comes down to 2 questions: Is the potential saving worth risking a warranty issue - in which case you have to ship back to them and have a lengthy wait on your hands? & do you feel as safe with your purchase as you would with the likes of Wheelsmith or similar wheel builders with a solid local reputation? If so why? 

There have been no issues? Look here to see one example of an unhappy customer. Or 2.........

I don't mind paying a bit extra for something that will last and most of all i don't need nagging doubts in my head whilst going down a hill at speed.


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## Spoked Wheels (29 Nov 2015)




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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Build quality is important, I agree. But where do you think Wheelsmith gets his carbon rims from?


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Build quality is important, I agree. But where do you think Wheelsmith gets his carbon rims from?


Gigantex.

As do Planet X and many many others. There is a reason for that! They are the leading brand for carbon rims.

A good builder won't do anything stupid like sell 20mm carbon clinchers that weigh 900 grams and sell to Tom, Dick and Harry. Before you even consider quality control from Carbozone, Denfu, Farsports, etc etc etc then you also have to consider the real world cycling experience these people have when selling these types of wheels on a whim.

As for personal experience i happen to know a rider who has delaminated chinese carbon clinchers twice on descents now. Both resulting in a blowout. More the fool he is should he go for a third.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> There have been no issues? Look here to see one example of an unhappy customer. Or 2.........



That link discusses carbon clinchers - which are a total abhorrence in any case. My link earlier was to a set of tubs, for good reason.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Gigantex.
> 
> As do Planet X and many many others. There is a reason for that! They are the leading brand for carbon wheels.
> 
> ...



Gigantex are not the only company capable of turning out decent rims. Once again, I am not talking about carbon clinchers - never have been. The issues with heat dissipation on those are well documented.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> That link discusses carbon clinchers - which are a total abhorrence in any case. My link earlier was to a set of tubs, for good reason.


My link is relevant to the OP who is interested in clinchers, judging by his initial 3 wheel choices. 

I too prefer tubs.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> Gigantex are not the only company capable of turning out decent rims. Once again, I am not talking about carbon clinchers - never have been. The issues with heat dissipation on those are well documented.


Clinchers or tubs. Doesn't matter. I am simply saying you won't see a a decent wheel builder selling anything other than wheels that they consider safe to ride in all conditions.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Clinchers or tubs. Doesn't matter. I am simply saying you won't see a a decent wheel builder selling anything other than wheels that they consider safe to ride in all conditions.



No argument there. But that doesn't mean that wheels from Carbonzone, Dengfu, etc are inherently less safe than any other. Most brands have their issues, Chinese or otherwise...


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Interesting couple of replies @Pedrosanchezo. Where I am, in South Wales, is rather lumpy but I also have some coastal areas that I can do TT's. Am considering trying this out next year tbh, hence the wheel interest.

Looking at Alu rimmed clinchers, as that is what I know and can afford. Got no experience of anything else, but do continue with regards to the benefits of tubs and carbon rims please.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

For flat TTs, then any deep section will do - clincher, tub, alu brake track or otherwise. Weight doesn't really matter, but aero does.

For general leisure riding, you don't need tubs and you don't need deep sections anyway.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> No argument there. But that doesn't mean that wheels from Carbonzone, Dengfu, etc are inherently less safe than any other. Most brands have their issues, Chinese or otherwise...


I had first hand experience with Dengfu where i was a member of the main (european) forum and ordered a frame. I was initially impressed with the products being sold etc but as i started asking, legit, questions regarding warranties etc they stopped me from posting and deleted any post i had made that would call in to question their product. All in all they were basically censoring the posts and only allowing positive posts to be printed. After many many weeks of f*ck ups a man with very bad English got in touch to say there had been a problem with the order and it would take a few more weeks. I asked for a refund, which i eventually got 3 weeks later. Lesson learned. That's before we talk about product quality. 

Each to their own but there are plenty of stories out there concerning defect products coming in from less renowned carbon fibre distributors.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

Like most things, buying Chinese is a compromise. You have to be prepared to take a hit if it goes wrong, because the process of sending it back to China (if that is even an option) is such a pain in the arse that it is probably not worth doing. The upside of that is the price you pay. You just have to weigh up the risks against the savings.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

My thoughts exactly. We have come to different conclusions after the risk assessment, but that is just fine.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

I couldn't justify the risk tbh.


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## Citius (29 Nov 2015)

bpsmith said:


> I couldn't justify the risk tbh.



A set of 1200g 38mm tubs for less than £300 - I think that's a pretty good risk. Especially if you know people already riding them...


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## Hacienda71 (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> I had first hand experience with Dengfu where i was a member of the main (european) forum and ordered a frame. I was initially impressed with the products being sold etc but as i started asking, legit, questions regarding warranties etc they stopped me from posting and deleted any post i had made that would call in to question their product. All in all they were basically censoring the posts and only allowing positive posts to be printed. After many many weeks of f*ck ups a man with very bad English got in touch to say there had been a problem with the order and it would take a few more weeks. I asked for a refund, which i eventually got 3 weeks later. Lesson learned. That's before we talk about product quality.
> 
> Each to their own but there are plenty of stories out there concerning defect products coming in from less renowned carbon fibre distributors.


I didn't know there was a Dengfu forum, have you got a link?


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## Andrew_P (29 Nov 2015)

I have bought 100's of thousands of products from China, by the 40ft HC container load. I wouldn't buy anything that had any risk to life or limb without employing my own QC on site and designing the product in house. Much like the major bike brands have if it is not their own manufacturing plant. Having dealt with China and seen what some suppliers are prepared to do to cut corners or make more profit I wouldn't risk putting my backside on an unbranded bought direct bike or parts. My view is somewhat tainted through experience though.


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## bpsmith (29 Nov 2015)

Citius said:


> A set of 1200g 38mm tubs for less than £300 - I think that's a pretty good risk. Especially if you know people already riding them...


Reading up a bit on tubs, I think that they aren't for me. Would rather stick with the quality race clinchers that I usually go for. Ok, clincher wheels will never match them for weight, clearly. As for the risk, as mentioned above, it's too much hassle if something goes wrong. Arguably, you can afford to buy another set for much the same total spend, but you just end up with another set waiting to go wrong potentially. I am sure that there are many people who don't have issues, but the nagging doubt would be too much for my brain to handle.


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## Pedrosanchezo (29 Nov 2015)

Hacienda71 said:


> I didn't know there was a Dengfu forum, have you got a link?


Apologies if that came across as Degfu having a forum. It is a forum, and site, where Chinese carbon is sold on the cheap. Dengfu are one of the main sellers. It looks amazing at first but i didn't like the censorship one bit. They kept all the posts where i said good things and deleted the rest. Very questionable behaviour. 

Velobuild

Velobuild forum


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## Hacienda71 (29 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> Apologies if that came across as Degfu having a forum. It is a forum, and site, where Chinese carbon is sold on the cheap. Dengfu are one of the main sellers. It looks amazing at first but i didn't like the censorship one bit. They kept all the posts where i said good things and deleted the rest. Very questionable behaviour.
> 
> Velobuild
> 
> Velobuild forum


Ah ok, I saw velobuild forum but relied on peer reviews on UK, Aussie and US forums and blogs when I got my frame and bought it direct rather than a group buy. A few people had commented on Velobuild being selective on what was being published, so I discounted it as being reliable.


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## Doyleyburger (30 Nov 2015)

Pedrosanchezo said:


> There isn't a huge difference between the likes of Zondas and Fulcrum Zeros. Weight and ceramic hubs. They are both aerodynamically similar so why pay double the price?


Glad this has been mentioned as I keep coming back to the Zonda's as a replacement for the stock Giant rims on my TCR.


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## bpsmith (3 Dec 2015)

I didn't buy any of the above over the weekend. The weight element kept bugging me, so decided to let it go.

Then, randomly, I found a great deal on these F4R Full Carbon Clinchers:







Lower weight than my Zonda's. 45mm depth and 23mm wide too. New school aero. Should arrive on Monday. Happy days!

Edit: Coming from Arnhem, hence Monday delivery. Always seem to find the best deals abroad these days.


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## bpsmith (3 Dec 2015)

Doyleyburger said:


> Glad this has been mentioned as I keep coming back to the Zonda's as a replacement for the stock Giant rims on my TCR.


My Zonda's were first bought to replace the stock wheels on my Defy. Made a huge difference to me.


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## Citius (3 Dec 2015)

Wow - a massive 45g lighter than a set of £180 Quattros


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## bpsmith (4 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Wow - a massive 45g lighter than a set of £180 Quattros


Think you'll find that they are 200g lighter than the Quattro's. Don't get the comparison to Quattro's anyway? They're 35mm deep, for a start, and have none of the features of the F4R's I have ordered.


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## huwsparky (4 Dec 2015)

What weight are they?


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## bonsaibilly (4 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Think you'll find that they are 200g lighter than the Quattro's. Don't get the comparison to Quattro's anyway? They're 35mm deep, for a start, and have none of the features of the F4R's I have ordered.



Shouldn't you be out training so that you can get the county TT record once the wheels arrive, instead of arguing about them on here?
BB


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## Citius (4 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Think you'll find that they are 200g lighter than the Quattro's. Don't get the comparison to Quattro's anyway? They're 35mm deep, for a start, and have none of the features of the F4R's I have ordered.



My mistake - the difference is 85g, not 45g. And to be fair, they are a full 10mm deeper, which makes all the difference (not). I use Quattros as a comparison because they are less than £200, they come in at 1725g and they will do 99% of the things which you have just bought the FFWDs for. Although the stickers are nicer, to be fair.


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## bpsmith (4 Dec 2015)

bonsaibilly said:


> Shouldn't you be out training so that you can get the county TT record once the wheels arrive, instead of arguing about them on here?
> BB


Indeed. Why am I wasting my time trying to reason with people on here?

Can't see the difficulty with subtracting 1,525g from 1,725g? Straight forward to me.


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## Citius (4 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Can't see the difficulty with subtracting 1,525g from 1,725g? Straight forward to me.



1640g according to the FFWD website.


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## bpsmith (4 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> 1640g according to the FFWD website.


1,525g actually weighed, according to site I ordered from. Will check my model with FFWD.


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## Citius (4 Dec 2015)

I think it depends on the hubs. Models with FFWD's own hubs are 1640. DT hubs come up less..


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## bonsaibilly (4 Dec 2015)

vrooom


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## bpsmith (6 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> 1640g according to the FFWD website.


Arrived this morning. You do the maths.


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## bonsaibilly (6 Dec 2015)

How are they staying upright?!


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## bpsmith (6 Dec 2015)

bonsaibilly said:


> How are they staying upright?!


Leaning against the box that they came in. What are you suggesting exactly?


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## bonsaibilly (6 Dec 2015)

I dunno, that something was taking some of the load I suppose. BB


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## bonsaibilly (6 Dec 2015)

Not that I understand anything about it.


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## bpsmith (6 Dec 2015)

FFS, just accept that they are around the 1,500g mark and be done with it.

I am more than happy with their weight, especially on a 45mm deep clincher. Nice aero benefits. No major issues in the wind and actually ended up lighter than my Zonda's. Perfect.

Looking forward to testing them out now, but Santa said not yet!


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## bonsaibilly (6 Dec 2015)

Is that because "Santa" has more gifts a coming of bike related ilk? Or is "he" scared you might come a croppa on the ice??,


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## bpsmith (6 Dec 2015)

They are being partly funded by the missus for Chrimbo, so I am not fitting them for a few weeks yet. 

Determined to get a ride on them over Christmas week though. Fingers crossed that the gritters aren't out!


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## bpsmith (27 Dec 2015)

Now tell me they don't look light and fast...


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## Andrew_P (27 Dec 2015)

Nice, would be better de-logo and seat needs levelling


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## bpsmith (27 Dec 2015)

Andrew_P said:


> Nice, would be better de-logo and seat needs levelling


Decals are under the clear coat. Really like them as they are, but we're all different.

Saddle is ever so slightly tipped forward deliberately. Not as much as photo suggests mind you, but thanks for pointing it out in case I hadn't been aware.


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## winjim (27 Dec 2015)

bpsmith said:


> Now tell me they don't look light and fast...
> 
> View attachment 114017


Whatever you think about the performance of them, they do look the business.


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## Citius (27 Dec 2015)

Nice to see a Bianchi that isn't celeste. Unfortunately, the shed is....


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## bpsmith (27 Dec 2015)

winjim said:


> Whatever you think about the performance of them, they do look the business.


Cheers!


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## winjim (27 Dec 2015)

Citius said:


> Nice to see a Bianchi that isn't celeste. Unfortunately, the shed is....


Nice touch with the cabling though. I would mention the groupset manufacturer, but since I sold my Bianchi I don't have to pretend to care about that any more.


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## bpsmith (27 Dec 2015)

winjim said:


> Nice touch with the cabling though. I would mention the groupset manufacturer, but since I sold my Bianchi I don't have to pretend to care about that any more.


Cabling was my addition a few months back.

I hear you on the group set, but then a Matte Black frame isn't exactly in the old skool Bianchistyle either. Quite like the fact that it's not following the norm tbh. Not seen another one around here, although obviously they must be out there.

I make up for it by wearing a Celesté long sleeve jersey in weather such as this.


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## bpsmith (28 Dec 2015)

Test ride of 33 miles today, in swirling crosswind. When the wind dropped the bike really wanted to stay above 20 mph. Swirling winds did catch the wheels more than the Zonda's, as expected, but not as much as the 58mm versions would have. Went well when facing completely into the wind when sheltered from the coast by houses.

Did some climbs too, into the wind and with a tailwind, once away from the coast. Certainly a great choice weightwise. Descending was amazing. Managed to get 7th place on a 1.3 mile 3.5% average descent on one segment with direct headwind. Not bad out of 595. Was slowed by traffic halfway, so KOM might have been close, as missed it by 10 secs. 30 secs faster than my best before that, and that time was with a tailwind.m

Overall, I am chuffed with my choice!


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## bpsmith (2 Jan 2016)

Second spin on the F4R's today. Unbelievable wheels. Chuffed to bits!

Far from my fittest, after barely any riding over past couple of months, Ali g with Christmas pounds.

Barely any wind and managed to be only 6 secs slower than a local segment that we all gun it on. My PB was at my peak in early Summer with significant tailwind. I wonder how long it will be before someone takes the 2016 KOM off me.


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## bonsaibilly (3 Jan 2016)

Probably well worth shelling out on then if they helped you to go slower than before!! BB


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

bonsaibilly said:


> Probably well worth shelling out on then if they helped you to go slower than before!! BB


You really can't understand the significance of getting so close to a PB, which was done at peak fitness with significant tailwind.

You really are a plonker it seems.


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## bonsaibilly (3 Jan 2016)

I must be. BB


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## Citius (3 Jan 2016)

Emporor's new clothes..


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## Justinslow (3 Jan 2016)

My superstar elite ultra 30's come in at 1510g with 30mm rims and cost £156.
I think there is a huge choice of wheels now that don't break the bank.
I take it you are using carbon specific brake pads? If it were me I'd take em off now and save them for the summer no point trashing them in filthy conditions, wet grit and brake pads mixed with carbon rims doesn't sound great. They do look very good though.
A mate of mine bought the bullets last year for somewhere in the region of £600 he hasn't beaten me in a TT yet


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

Justinslow said:


> My superstar elite ultra 30's come in at 1510g with 30mm rims and cost £156.
> I think there is a huge choice of wheels now that don't break the bank.
> I take it you are using carbon specific brake pads? If it were me I'd take em off now and save them for the summer no point trashing them in filthy conditions, wet grit and brake pads mixed with carbon rims doesn't sound great. They do look very good though.
> A mate of mine bought the bullets last year for somewhere in the region of £600 he hasn't beaten me in a TT yet


I have a set of Swissstop Carbon pads on there, yes. Thanks for questioning though, as I might age forgotten, or somebody may gain from that in future reading.

I have made 2 test rides, so far, without major rain or wet roads. My plan is now to clean the Bianchi and keep it for dry conditions. I have the Defy ready for wet weather from here on.

It's a fair point about how components perform compared to other components with other riders. Definitely no way to compare with multiple variables. Would be interesting for you to compare your own times with your Superstars, with your times using his Bullets though. Or likewise, his times on his Bullets with his times using your Superstars. Perhaps swap wheels to compare maybe?

It's interesting reading, when others try to impart their 'knowledge' on you when they have no experience of the kit they are commenting on. This isn't meant at you specifically, as you have a more balanced way of replying with your actual experiences educating your response, but more aimed towards others who comment but have clearly no experience of what they suggest the have 'knowledge' about.

Clearly, you are pleased with your purchase. I am pleased for you too. I have no reason to have any other emotion. I am also pleased with my purchase. Thank you for your comments on how they look also.


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## huwsparky (3 Jan 2016)

I'd love to know what the actual difference would be between aero and non aero wheels of the same weight say at @275w over a 10mile TT. Anyone hazard a guess? 10s maybe???


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## Citius (3 Jan 2016)

huwsparky said:


> I'd love to know what the actual difference would be between aero and non aero wheels of the same weight say at @275w over a 10mile TT. Anyone hazard a guess? 10s maybe???



The answers (or at least the theoretical ones) can be hypothesised here: http://www.analyticcycling.com/ - this is the website that bpsmith refuses to read


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

huwsparky said:


> I'd love to know what the actual difference would be between aero and non aero wheels of the same weight say at @275w over a 10mile TT. Anyone hazard a guess? 10s maybe???


I would be genuinely interested in that too. Ideally with the same hubs and spokes, but it will never happen unless someone knows a wheel builder prepared to build said wheels. Would also need perfect conditions and same rider in same form. Practically impossible?

GCN have a good video, that I posted previously, showing standard wheels vs Aero wheels of similar weight. Aero wheels have a weight of 1,810g, so hardly the lightest.Results are interesting.


View: http://youtu.be/pUdC3mrHcc8


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> The answers (or at least the theoretical ones) can be hypothesised here: http://www.analyticcycling.com/ - this is the website that bpsmith refuses to read


The website that I refused to read for a third time, as you know. 

You keep spouting it, albeit being rather old now too. What actual real life experience do you have? Just for once, feel free to share your knowledge on aero wheels that you have actually ridden?


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## Citius (3 Jan 2016)

bpsmith said:


> Just for once, feel free to share your knowledge on aero wheels that you have actually ridden?



You are assuming I am posting from a position of no knowledge. Why? Because you don't agree with it?


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> You are assuming I am posting from a position of no knowledge. Why? Because you don't agree with it?


No, because the lack of posts imparting any of this actual knowledge suggest this. How else are we to know what experience you have?


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## Citius (3 Jan 2016)

bpsmith said:


> No, because the lack of posts imparting any of this actual knowledge suggest this. How else are we to know what experience you have?



What precisely is it that you need to know?


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> What precisely is it that you need to know?


What aero wheels do you own and/or have ridden? What are your thoughts on them? What wheels and bike do you normally ride?


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## Citius (3 Jan 2016)

bpsmith said:


> What aero wheels do you own and/or have ridden? What are your thoughts on them? What wheels and bike do you normally ride?



How is that relevant to the wheels you have bought? I could make up any old answers and you would be none the wiser. All anyone can do is offer input based on the questions posed, and then justify that reasoning through a process of discussion. You are welcome to either accept or dismiss such arguments as you see fit. My own, personal, specific kit choices are utterly irrelevant.


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## bpsmith (3 Jan 2016)

Citius said:


> How is that relevant to the wheels you have bought? I could make up any old answers and you would be none the wiser. All anyone can do is offer input based on the questions posed, and then justify that reasoning through a process of discussion. You are welcome to either accept or dismiss such arguments as you see fit. My own, personal, specific kit choices are utterly irrelevant.


My questions were rhetorical. You clearly weren't going to answer. You aren't following your own advice and answering the questions posed or entering into real world discussion based on your experience. Hence, like others, I take your replies with a pinch of salt.


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## Citius (3 Jan 2016)

bpsmith said:


> You aren't following your own advice and answering the questions posed or entering into real world discussion based on your experience.



I am, actually. My real world experience is that deep section wheels are great for flat TTs. Far less useful in road races or crits. But I'm pretty sure I already said as much several pages ago.


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## Justinslow (3 Jan 2016)

bpsmith said:


> I have a set of Swissstop Carbon pads on there, yes. Thanks for questioning though, as I might age forgotten, or somebody may gain from that in future reading.
> 
> I have made 2 test rides, so far, without major rain or wet roads. My plan is now to clean the Bianchi and keep it for dry conditions. I have the Defy ready for wet weather from here on.
> 
> ...


It's a tricky one, I went from R501's to the superstars, yes they felt great, but I think I tried harder on them because I wanted them to feel better as much as anything. I certainly went quicker through the TT season, but I believe this was through a whole bunch of reasons, improved fitness as the season went on, acquisitions of a skin suit and a TT helmet, course knowledge, better pacing, like I said loads of reasons. That's not to say the wheels didn't help, I think they did, just probably not in a massive way some people expect.
My last TT on our clubs 10 course I posted a time 39 seconds quicker than my previous TT on that course a month previous using identical kit, I can't put that down to my wheels.........
I'm not criticising your wheels, I think everybody can buy what they want, I like the look of your wheels too! I guess I was like you when I got my wheels, I will probably do the same again when I try my Planet X deep section carbons and tubs I've bought for this season for the first time! So long as they make you want to ride your bike and bring a smile to your face then jobs a good un.
Everybody and I mean everybody, I know who's quick are quick for one reason and it isn't the kit that they ride or use! It's because they train bloody hard and don't give up!
But you know this already


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## huwsparky (3 Jan 2016)

bpsmith said:


> I would be genuinely interested in that too. Ideally with the same hubs and spokes, but it will never happen unless someone knows a wheel builder prepared to build said wheels. Would also need perfect conditions and same rider in same form. Practically impossible?
> 
> GCN have a good video, that I posted previously, showing standard wheels vs Aero wheels of similar weight. Aero wheels have a weight of 1,810g, so hardly the lightest.Results are interesting.
> 
> ...



Interesting video! One problem for me to make a comparison, he can make a lot more power than I can!!!


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## bpsmith (4 Jan 2016)

huwsparky said:


> Interesting video! One problem for me to make a comparison, he can make a lot more power than I can!!!


Me too!

Whilst the power output doesn't translate, the duration arguably does.


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## bpsmith (4 Jan 2016)

gam001 said:


> Good wheels them, I have the F6R with 240s hubs.
> Looks like you have FFWD hubs, which are 350 hubs rebadged, which are very similar to the 240s hubs, but have a slightly heavier hub-shell.
> Mine are still true 18 months on.
> They seem pretty rapid once you get them in the 20-25mph zone for fast training rides (struggle to keep them above 25mph on my road bike ), seem like my aluminium wheels under 20mph (just stiffer).
> ...


Yes, mine are the 350 rebranded hubs. Will check out YouTube, as you suggest. Not thought about maintenance yet, but j do like to be proactive on these things too.

The rim replacement is a great service IMHO. Hopefully a long way off yet.

As for the speeds, I too have found my effort easier with speeds above 20mph. Can sustain even higher speeds for longer. Ascending feels good, with the stiffness, but descending is even more noticeable. With a 70kg 175cm frame, I was finding myself pedalling hard downhill to keep up with the bigger guys who weren't pedalling. Much closer speeds now.


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