# cyclists - the not so good



## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

I've cycled in London, drove a car in London and now use a Vespa. I've done all three over the last 20 years primarily in West London and find the following:

- Cyclists take risks, NEVER look over their shoulder if they're overtaking a vehicle or another cyclist. As a motorcyclist this is drummed into you when you are doing your CBT of full bike test - it's called a lifesaver check. Why is this? 

http://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/the-5-elements-of-cbt/element-c/indicating-observation-osmpsl/

It surprises me that even a few cyclists don't do this.

- Drivers of cars are completely unaware, they just follow the road and rarely check mirrors. Undertaking a car is a risk. When I'm out on my bicycle I assume the drivers are the worst and never see me, but a lot of cyclists want to ride with the rights of the law in mind and nothing else. Insane.

- On a motorcycle we are inbetween everybody. 

What prompted me to sign up to this forum is a cyclist today going mental at me for going in a cycle box - it was empty apart from one other cyclist who was on the far left, and then a brompton rider comes in and stops directly infront of me. I was inbetween two vans with their wing mirrors next to me and the one on the right was edging forward, so I wanted to be able to get away in front of them as it was a squeeze there. I went forward and to the right of the brompton and he immediately started filming with his head cams- me , my girlfriend and then my number plate explaining how it was going to be a really bad day for me as he was going to report me. There was so much space in a 2 lane width cycle box. There are dicks in all walk of life but cyclists do attract them. 

When you go into a cycle box, if there's space to go the side of any motorcycles so they can get past you when the lights go green, it's much appreciated.

As an aside, I hope London continues to build cycle lanes. On any two wheels you see the cars queued up for miles on end and think how on earth are we still doing this in 2017


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)




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## I like Skol (14 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


>


 indeed!

The first rule of fight club is: You do not talk about fight club....


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## User32269 (14 Nov 2017)

You broke rule 178 of the highway code, for which you can get three points and a fine, on your motorbike. Yet all cyclists are knobs. OK.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> What prompted me to sign up to this forum is a cyclist today going mental at me for going in a cycle box



Welcome to Cyclechat!

You've made a great start by using your very first post to point out how you can't follow the Highway Code or Road Traffic Act and then lecture everyone else.

Well done!


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

I'm an advanced motorcyclist and a cycle trainer and I look over my shoulder so much I'm surprised my head doesn't fall off.

Before making sweeping and apocryphal generalisations about other road users you should double check before hitting 'submit' that you yourself aren't publicly describing how you were committing and offence and someone had a pop at you for it.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Motorcyclists kill more people than cyclists. Go preach to them as they are the ones killing people.

Motorcyclists speed and take risks. Why is this?

When you approach a cycle box it's there for the safety of cyclists. If motorcyclists are so desperate to get passed, obey the law, recognise our safety is more important than 5s of your time and get over yourselves.

Last time you were in your motorbike how many times did you break the law by speeding?

There are dicks in all walks of life but motorcyclists do attract them as they think they should be telling others how ride when they kill themselves and others more frequently.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

@Fraser1 should think himself lucky it wasn't Traffic Droid. A red card and a finger wagging is nasty stuff.


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## I like Skol (14 Nov 2017)

Actually Fraser, ignore all the usual suspects queuing up to have a pop at you. We all make mistakes which is fine as long as we learn from them.

Welcome to cyclechat, I hope your stay is long and enjoyable (I accidently wandered in about 7yrs ago ).


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

haha.. yeah I think he got out a clipboard at one point. I moved into the cycle box as I was crammed between two vans and didn't want to be knocked by their wing mirrors - I could have stayed stationary and let them, go but then there's the danger that cars behind would follow closely and I would be stuck in the middle of the road. the safest course of action was to move into a near empty cycle box, but this is indeed breaking rule 178 of the highway code!

I didn't say all cyclists are knobs.

I'm calm now - he did annoy me at the time. He seemed to be reveling in the situation.

anyway, serious question and not point scoring here:

Why do cyclists not to a lifesaver check - is there any reason??


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

How can one mistakenly filter through traffic and park 100+kg of motorised metal on a spot of road that its not entitled to be upon? Sounds like a series of deliberate actions to reach that goal, not a single careless mistake.

If you dont to get pinned between vehicles you should maintain your position in the queue, and not place yourself between vehicles.

And as many cyclists look properly as motorcyclists don't.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

I like Skol said:


> Actually Fraser, ignore all the usual suspects queuing up to have a pop at you. We all make mistakes which is fine as long as we learn from them.
> 
> Welcome to cyclechat, I hope your stay is long and enjoyable (I accidently wandered in about 7yrs ago ).





Drago said:


> I'm an advanced motorcyclist and a cycle trainer and I look over my shoulder so much I'm surprised my head doesn't fall off.
> 
> Before making sweeping and apocryphal generalisations about other road users you should double check before hitting 'submit' that you yourself aren't publicly describing how you were committing and offence and someone had a pop at you for it.



I've explained the reasons why I went into the cycle box, but fair enough rules are rules.

Drago - as a motorcyclist you must notice how many cyclists don't look over there shoulder? I commute everyday and they simply never do.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> How can one mistakenly filter through traffic and park 100+kg of motorised metal on a spot of road thatnits not entitled to be upon? Sounds like a series of deliberate actions to reach that goal, not a single careless mistake.



I wasn't filtering - i was inbetween 2 vans.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> anyway, serious question and not point scoring here:
> 
> Why do cyclists not to a lifesaver check - is there any reason??


Why do motorcyclists regularly break speeding laws knowing full well in increases the likelihood of their death and other road users?

Ps I always shoulder check. As does my wife. And my kids. We do it to watch out for stupid overtakes of cars and motorcyclists who are speeding and can't wait or understand what a cycle box is.


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## Arjimlad (14 Nov 2017)

"Why do cyclists not do a lifesaver check?" is like asking "Why do drivers drink & drive/use phones/kill people?"

Please get the generalisations out of your head. As a driver I'm not asked to explain/excuse the actions of other drivers, and as a cyclist it's not for me to explain/excuse the actions of other cyclists.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Why do cyclists not to a lifesaver check - is there any reason??



For the same reason most motorcyclists don't, I should think.

For the same reason motorcyclists unlawfully stop in cycle-only stop zones.

For the same reasons motorcyclists buy 200 BHP bikes and ride them twice a year, and never develop the skills and experience to properly manage such a machine.

For the same reason no motorcyclist in the history of the world, ever, has obeyed a speed limit (except for me).


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## Tim Hall (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> - Cyclists take risks, NEVER look over their shoulder if they're overtaking a vehicle or another cyclist.


Uh huh. "Never" is a fairly definite statement. You sure about that?


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> the safest course of action was to move into a near empty cycle box



Why did you put yourself in that compromised position? (if not to abuse the cycle only facility)



Fraser1 said:


> I didn't say all cyclists are knobs.



No-one said you did but you are taking an observation and applying it to all people who cycle.



Fraser1 said:


> Why do cyclists not to a lifesaver check



See what I mean?


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

Its like a form of anti-cycling tourettes. I didn't mean to...but I'm going to carry on doing so anyway.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> Why do motorcyclists regularly break speeding laws knowing full well in increases the likelihood of their death and other road users?
> 
> Ps I always shoulder check. As does my wife. And my kids. We do it to watch out for stupid overtakes of cars and motorcyclists who are speeding and can't wait or understand what a cycle box is.



No Marky, you do a lifesaver check if YOU are overtaking or turning left. I think you're confused here.

Ps - why would you do a lifesaver check in a cycle box?? You are stationary. Here's some more info on lifesaver checks so you can learn more about them:

http://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/the-5-elements-of-cbt/element-c/indicating-observation-osmpsl/


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## User32269 (14 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> No-one said you did but you are taking an observation and applying it to all people who cycle.


To be fair, I said he did. Sorry! Was using exaggeration to highlight my point. 

I hate seeing cyclists moving out in traffic without checking over their shoulder, but find it's a tiny minority who do this.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Why did you put yourself in that compromised position? (if not to abuse the cycle only facility)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a simple observation though, and you're taking it personally. When you commute back later, look and see how many look over their shoulder when they overtake.


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

Its like car drivers - how many of them indicate without actually looking? Most, as it happens, but certainly not all.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

odav said:


> To be fair, I said he did. Sorry! Was using exaggeration to highlight my point.
> 
> I hate seeing cyclists moving out in traffic without checking over their shoulder, but find it's a tiny minority who do this.



A tiny minority - you must be kidding odav. As I said to another poster - count up the checks over shoulder tonight.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> No Marky, you do a lifesaver check if YOU are overtaking or turning left. I think you're confused here.
> 
> Ps - why would you do a lifesaver check in a cycle box?? You are stationary. Here's some more info on lifesaver checks so you can learn more about them:
> 
> http://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/the-5-elements-of-cbt/element-c/indicating-observation-osmpsl/


I look all around the in cycleboxes fir impatient idiots that shouldn't be there.


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

Odd, I commute every day in London (admittedly not West London). I and many other cyclists do check over our shoulders. Some don't and I think they're silly.

Then again, there are many muppets in cars and on motorbikes as well; my favourite moment with a motorcyclist was one who decided he'd come into the cycle box, and position himself in the far right of it, then try and turn left across me when the lights changed. When I exclaimed 'what the fark', he promptly stopped during his manoeuvre, did the old 'caaaaaam onnn thennnn' routine, made a pathetic attempt to throw his head towards me, then rode off.

So there you go, w@nkers everywhere.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Arjimlad said:


> "Why do cyclists not do a lifesaver check?" is like asking "Why do drivers drink & drive/use phones/kill people?"
> 
> Please get the generalisations out of your head. As a driver I'm not asked to explain/excuse the actions of other drivers, and as a cyclist it's not for me to explain/excuse the actions of other cyclists.



I get the impression everybody on this forum thinks I'm personally attacking cyclists, I don't mean to be. I do however think there should be some kind of campaign to highlight the importance of checking over your shoulder on a push bike. I do not see many cyclists do it and it could save lives.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I look all around the in cycleboxes fir impatient idiots that shouldn't be there.



lol ok you got me there!

but pleased I passed on some good info to you on checking over your shoulder when YOU are overtaking, not when cars/ motorbikes are overtaking you. Glad I came on now to help and teach you this, it's very important


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Ps - why would you do a lifesaver check in a cycle box??



To look for any motorcyclists abusing the facility and about to skim me when the lights change?



Fraser1 said:


> It's a simple observation though, and you're taking it personally. When you commute back later, look and see how many look over their shoulder when they overtake.



I see the vast majority of cyclists doing proper checks.

Any chance of answering my question as to why you positioned yourself so badly?


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I get the impression everybody on this forum thinks I'm personally attacking cyclists, I don't mean to be. I do however think there should be some kind of campaign to highlight the importance of checking over your shoulder on a push bike. I do not see many cyclists do it and it could save lives.



No, what you've done is come here and make a ridiculous generalisation about cyclists which many of us, as people who ride bikes every day, know to be untrue. Your point isn't helped by the fact that going by your original post, your position was terrible (in between two vans) - I'd wager that people are less likely to take advice from someone who could clearly improve their own ability in riding their vehicle. 

You're welcome.


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## User32269 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> A tiny minority - you must be kidding odav. As I said to another poster - count up the checks over shoulder tonight.



I'm a bit busy tonight on my Brompton keeping the cycle boxes safe and free from villains.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

J1888 said:


> No, what you've done is come here and make a ridiculous generalisation about cyclists which many of us, as people who ride bikes every day, know to be untrue. Your point isn't helped by the fact that going by your original post, your position was terrible (in between two vans) - I'd wager that people are less likely to take advice from someone who could clearly improve their own ability in riding their vehicle.
> 
> You're welcome.


I'm sorry but that's just not true. I commute in London every day and cyclists doing a life saver check are very rare. 

I'm not sure what the you're welcome means.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> To look for any motorcyclists abusing the facility and about to skim me when the lights change?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok on a motorbike it's really not uncommon to sit between two vehicles at a traffic light. you take off ahead of them as motorbikes are quick off the mark, unless a cyclist parks directly infront of him in an empty cycle box.

As I've said, I could have stayed stationary but then traffic behind may have followed the vans very closely. I took the decision to move ahead and go into an empty cycle box contravening the highway code.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> lol ok you got me there!
> 
> but pleased I passed on some good info to you on checking over your shoulder when YOU are overtaking, not when cars/ motorbikes are overtaking you. Glad I came on now to help and teach you this, it's very important


No you didn't. I always check all around me all the time. 

Now please answer me this. Why do motorcyclists speed knowing full well it increases the chances of their and other road users likelihood of serious injury and death? And how often are you on motorbike forums telling them not to speed when they are far more likely to be killed than a cyclist?


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## Rooster1 (14 Nov 2017)

Thanks for pointing out that some cyclists are not sensible. I think that can also be said for the exact same percentage of vehicle owners.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> No you didn't. I always check all around me all the time.
> 
> Now please answer me this. Why do motorcyclists speed knowing full well it increases the chances of their and other road users likelihood of serious injury and death? And how often are you on motorbike forums telling them not to speed when they are far more likely to be killed than a cyclist?



Why would you ckeck around you "all the time"? That's dangerous

"Ps I always shoulder check. As does my wife. And my kids. We do it to watch out for stupid overtakes of cars and motorcyclists who are speeding and can't wait or understand what a cycle box is."

Why would you do this? Do you constantly look behind you whilst cars are passing you by? What a loony tunes sight you, your wife and kids must look - necks like owls


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Why would you ckeck around you "all the time"? That's dangerous
> 
> "Ps I always shoulder check. As does my wife. And my kids. We do it to watch out for stupid overtakes of cars and motorcyclists who are speeding and can't wait or understand what a cycle box is."
> 
> Why would you do this? Do you constantly look behind you whilst cars are passing you by? What a loony tunes sight you, your wife and kids must look - necks like owls


I check behind every 30s or so or if there's a motorbike behind because they can be twunts. And this conversation if proving me correct.

Now again. What about speeding motorbikes? What are you busy saying to them?


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I check behind every 30s or so or if there's a motorbike behind because they can be twunts. And this conversation if proving me correct.



Oh i see. do you have a timer that beeps to tell you when to look behind?


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

[QUOTE 5039825, member: 43827"]I am not trying to put words into Markymark's mouth, Lord knows no-one has his innate London bred mastery of eloquence, but any experienced cyclist would know that his reference to over-shoulder-checking would be taken as read to include overtaking and turning.[/QUOTE]

I would say if a cyclist is checking over his/ her shoulder, it means they _want _to overtake, not that they should be or are going to overtake.

You've brought up another excellent point though


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## FishFright (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Oh i see. do you have a timer that beeps to tell you when to look behind?



Snort, you know that feeling when every post just digs you a deeper hole ??

I do , I'm a bugger for it .


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## Rooster1 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Oh i see. do you have a timer that beeps to tell you when to look behind?



I do the same, it's easy and no you don't need a timer.


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## NickNick (14 Nov 2017)

I've cycled a lot over last year or so from Marylebone station to Wimbledon and vice versa and have never seen a noticeable number of cyclists not look over their shoulder when over taking/changing lane.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

FishFright said:


> Snort, you know that feeling when every post just digs you a deeper hole ??
> 
> I do , I'm a bugger for it .


you must be kidding, poor Markymark is having a mare this morning./ First of all he said he does a safety check when a car is going to overtake him and then he says he does safety checks on a 30 second timed basis.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Oh i see. do you have a timer that beeps to tell you when to look behind?


It's every now and again. 

Why don't you answer a question? Are the words tricky? Or can't you?


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## winjim (14 Nov 2017)

Admitting that you made a mistake in your road positioning so you felt you had to act against the highway code and encroach on the cycle box for your own safety, and then felt a bit aggrieved when a cyclist took exception to this, but you can see why they did and you will try to learn from this incident and not find yourself in such a position in the future...



...would have been fine.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Ok on a motorbike it's really not uncommon to sit between two vehicles at a traffic light. you take off ahead of them as motorbikes are quick off the mark, unless a cyclist parks directly infront of him in an empty cycle box.
> 
> As I've said, I could have stayed stationary but then traffic behind may have followed the vans very closely. I took the decision to move ahead and go into an empty cycle box contravening the highway code.



So you placed yourself in a dangerous position in the expectation that you'd be able to be "quick off the mark" from the lights beating the vans either side. It shows very poor roadcraft to do that, and some arrogance, to assume that the empty cycle box will remain clear for your benefit. As it turned out in your scenario, a legitimate user took up position in the box in such a way that you chose to illegally abuse a facility that is there for the protection of cyclists, not you.

How you can feel it appropriate to then join a cycling forum to berate a cyclist for properly using a bike box when you've done everything wrong in that episode is beyond me.

(I suppose there is the real possibility that you're enjoying yanking our collective chains and will fade away in a day or two.)


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

NickNick said:


> I've cycled a lot over last year or so from Marylebone station to Wimbledon and vice versa and have never seen a noticeable number of cyclists not look over their shoulder when over taking/changing lane.



It needs to be promoted. Why encourage reflective clothing, crash helmets and miss this important info out. Even experienced riders like Markymark don't understand the reasons for looking over a shoulder.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> First of all he said he does a safety check when a car is going to overtake him



What do you see wrong with that?


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## FishFright (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> you must be kidding, poor Markymark is having a mare this morning./ First of all he said he does a safety check when a car is going to overtake him and then he says he does safety checks on a 30 second timed basis.



Oh dear , me thinks someone took a wrong turning. In city traffic most of us do , even more so if we have mirrors. Now back to your illegal riding, do you consider the traffic laws to be optional as you look dead butch on your motorbike ?

Also some of the folk have _practical_ experience of law enforcement be a little bit careful.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> What do you see wrong with that?



What I see wrong is Markymark has no idea when or why you should look over your shoulder.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Bless, he's trying very hard but I don't think he's very bright.

Let me try again with shorter words.

Why on your broom broom do you go bigger number than mummy says you can?


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

FishFright said:


> Oh dear , me thinks someone took a wrong turning. In city traffic most of us do , even more so of we have mirrors. Now back to your illegal riding, do you consider the traffic laws to be optional as you look dead butch on your motorbike ?
> 
> Also some of the folk have _practical_ experience of law enforcement be a little bit careful.


haha. .. I would find it difficult to compete in the butch stakes around here


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## winjim (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> Bless, he's trying very hard but I don't think he's very bright.
> 
> Let me try again with shorter words.
> 
> Why on your broom broom do you go bigger number than mummy says you can?


He's a true nature's child.


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

I can't fathom that someone could be so daft, so I'm guessing that the OP is at it


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## Tim Hall (14 Nov 2017)

winjim said:


> He's a true nature's child.


Take the world in a love embrace.


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## FishFright (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> haha. .. I would find it difficult to compete in the butch stakes around here



Aww isnt't he cute ! Can we keep him ?


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> Bless, he's trying very hard but I don't think he's very bright.
> 
> Let me try again with shorter words.
> 
> Why on your broom broom do you go bigger number than mummy says you can?



yeah marky I've opened a topic on two things:

-consideration of motorcyclists waiting behind cycle boxes - can cyclists move to the side if there's space
- why do cyclists not look over their shoulder

If we bring up speeding, then of course we can do motorists using mobile phones, cyclists going through red lights and on and on.

you've not really contributed anything apart from your lack of knowledge on why/ when you should look over your shoulder.


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## NickNick (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> It needs to be promoted. Why encourage reflective clothing, crash helmets and miss this important info out. Even experienced riders like Markymark don't understand the reasons for looking over a shoulder.



You do realise there are multiple reasons for looking over your shoulder, one of which is to check the path is clear when changing lane/overtaking, another perfectly valid reason is to be generally aware of what is going on in your surroundings which is what Markymark was referring to, he quite clearly does both.

I can't think of a single instance in the last month where I've spotted a cyclist not use a shoulder check when required. Sure it does happen occasionally, but its really not the wide spread issue you claim it to be. Its a natural and pretty obvious safety protocol to follow, that the vast majority of cyclists do like e.g. not cycling on the wrong side of the road, hence us not feeling there is a need for widespread promotion/education campaigns on the matter.


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## User6179 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> Why on your broom broom do you go bigger number than mummy says you can?


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## Gary E (14 Nov 2017)

The mistake people make is to divide people in 2 groups - cyclists and drivers. 

When in fact they should divide them into conciderate road users and knobheads!

You'll find that there's a pretty good spread across both modes of transport!


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> What I see wrong is Markymark has no idea when or why you should look over your shoulder.



No, you specified a situation and I'm asking you what you see wrong with that.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

NickNick said:


> You do realise there are multiple reasons for looking over your shoulder, one of which is to check the path is clear when changing lane/overtaking, another perfectly valid reason is to be generally aware of what is going on in your surroundings which is what Markymark was referring to, he quite clearly does both.
> 
> I can't think of a single instance in the last month where I've spotted a cyclist not use a shoulder check when required. Sure it does happen occasionally, but its really not the wide spread issue you claim it to be. Its a natural and pretty obvious safety protocol to follow, that the vast majority of cyclists do like e.g. not cycling on the wrong side of the road, hence us not feeling there is a need for widespread promotion/education campaigns on the matter.



I never did the check whilst cycling, and then got it drilled into me whilst doing my CBT/ full license. That's why I was surprised that another poster who has an advanced motorbike never notices it. 

there's nothing wrong being aware of what's around you, although it's safer having wing mirrors to keep more of a check on things. Markymark does not clearly know when or why to look over your shoulder. He thinks it's for when cars are overtaking you.


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## Fraser1 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I never did the check whilst cycling, and then got it drilled into me whilst doing my CBT/ full license. That's why I was surprised that another poster who has an advanced motorbike never notices it.
> 
> there's nothing wrong being aware of what's around you, although it's safer having wing mirrors to keep more of a check on things. Markymark does not clearly know when or why to look over your shoulder. He thinks it's for when cars are overtaking you.



ok stay safe all, and Markymaprk pls remember to learn how to safety check


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## raleighnut (14 Nov 2017)

I'll be waiting for the apoplectic fit the OP has when a nice fixed penalty notice and some lovely points for his licence turn up, couple of weeks I reckon.


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> ok stay safe all, and Markymaprk pls remember to learn how to safety check


I'm smelling a flounce.


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## k_green (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> Markymark does not clearly know when or why to look over your shoulder. He thinks it's for when cars are overtaking you.



I look over my shoulder when cars are overtaking to see if they are being sensible in their positioning. If they're out wide, breathe a sigh of relief and keep an eye on the oncoming cars to ensure the overtaking car won't need to pull in suddenly. If they're passing very close, assess what I can do to make it safer for me (slow down, pull in, take primary etc).
Checking overtaking cars is very important to me, it's just part of acknowledging I'm vulnerable and need to have the best possible knowledge of my surroundings.


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## mjr (14 Nov 2017)

[QUOTE 5039902, member: 43827"]Disappears in a cloud of exhaust from the lights, wheels screeching........[/QUOTE]
No, there's too many cyclists in the advanced stop box in front of him who won't get out of the way of an obviously superior road user.


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## NickNick (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I never did the check whilst cycling, and then got it drilled into me whilst doing my CBT/ full license. That's why I was surprised that another poster who has an advanced motorbike never notices it.
> 
> there's nothing wrong being aware of what's around you, although it's safer having wing mirrors to keep more of a check on things. Markymark does not clearly know when or why to look over your shoulder. He thinks it's for when cars are overtaking you.



You might not have done, but no one has ever taught me to cycle on the roads yet I have always checked over my shoulder, as does every poster in this thread and the vast majority of cyclists. Not sure where Markymark has claimed to only look over his shoulder when cars overtake? You can do it for both reasons.


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## NickNick (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I'm smelling a flounce.



Its been a pretty poor example of drive by trolling.


----------



## Glow worm (14 Nov 2017)

NickNick said:


> Its been a pretty poor example of drive by trolling.



Pathetic flounce too!


----------



## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

NickNick said:


> Its been a pretty poor example of drive by trolling.


I think it was pretty good. 

1. I'm a cyclist too
2. Load of generalisations
3. Unwittingly mentioned their own law breaking
4. Failed to spot the inaccuracies and nonsense he spouts
5. Failed to spot the hypocrisy of his post
6. Dug and dug and dug his own hole
7. Failed to take on any points by people with more experience 
8. Showed their lack of understanding
9. Resorted to insults when they realised it wasn't going their wa
10. Flounce.


----------



## mjr (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I get the impression everybody on this forum thinks I'm personally attacking cyclists, I don't mean to be. I do however think there should be some kind of campaign to highlight the importance of checking over your shoulder on a push bike. I do not see many cyclists do it and it could save lives.


What, you mean like a training scheme that teaches looking over either shoulder at Level 1, doing a left-shoulder check before pulling in and a right-shoulder check before pulling out or turning right at Level 2 and carrying out "a left shoulder final check for undertaking traffic" and also "they should look over their left shoulder frequently" like @Markymark does at Level 3? You've never taken Bikeability, then?



Fraser1 said:


> Ok on a motorbike it's really not uncommon to sit between two vehicles at a traffic light. you take off ahead of them as motorbikes are quick off the mark, unless a cyclist parks directly infront of him in an empty cycle box.


No cyclist parks in a cycle box, do they? I've never seen a parking stand or anything to lock to in one.



Fraser1 said:


> As I've said, I could have stayed stationary but then traffic behind may have followed the vans very closely. I took the decision to move ahead and go into an empty cycle box contravening the highway code.


Not only contravening the highway code but committing an offence punishable by a fixed penalty notice. It's sadly rarely dished out in that situation but that's no excuse.


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## derrick (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I've cycled in London, drove a car in London and now use a Vespa. I've done all three over the last 20 years primarily in West London and find the following:
> 
> - Cyclists take risks, NEVER look over their shoulder if they're overtaking a vehicle or another cyclist. As a motorcyclist this is drummed into you when you are doing your CBT of full bike test - it's called a lifesaver check. Why is this?
> 
> ...



REALLY.
Now you know what we as cyclist are up against.


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## classic33 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> No Marky, you do a lifesaver check if YOU are overtaking or turning left. I think you're confused here.
> *
> Ps - why would you do a lifesaver check in a cycle box?? You are stationary. *Here's some more info on lifesaver checks so you can learn more about them:
> 
> http://begin-motorcycling.co.uk/the-5-elements-of-cbt/element-c/indicating-observation-osmpsl/


To establish eye contact with the drivers behind, to see which way the front wheels of the vehicles may be pointing, indicators if in use, assess the vehicle behind(bus/HGV, giving room to let them pass once on the move), volume of traffic behind.

No rear view mirror on my bikes.


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## NickNick (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I think it was pretty good.
> 
> 1. I'm a cyclist too
> 2. Load of generalisations
> ...



True its a good example in that sense, but I like to see a bit more creativity and suspense, if they're going to troll they should at least put the effort in to make it interesting.


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## Gary E (14 Nov 2017)

Well I for one have learned my lesson.
If it's good enough for a motorbike, it's good enough for me. I'm going to Halfords to buy a crapload of mirrors.
By this time tomorrow my bike will look like a Vespa at a mod convention


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## smutchin (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I get the impression everybody on this forum thinks I'm personally attacking cyclists, I don't mean to be.



You've signed up to a cycling forum for the sole purpose of lecturing some cyclists on the correct way to behave on the road. Well, thanks very much for taking the time to educate us poor fools, oh great wise master of the roads. 

Shut the door on your way out.


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## Profpointy (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I think it was pretty good.
> 
> 1. I'm a cyclist too
> 2. Load of generalisations
> ...



yebbutt nothing about road tax, nor "wobblin' abaat all over the place"


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## Welsh wheels (14 Nov 2017)

Man this will be good


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

Welsh wheels said:


> Man this will be good



I fear there'll be no further entertainment from him, his flame has fizzled out after less than two hours; much shorter than the couple of days I'd predicted.
How disappointing.


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## AndyRM (14 Nov 2017)

Check out these lifesavers...


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## Nigel-YZ1 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I get the impression everybody on this forum thinks I'm personally attacking cyclists, I don't mean to be. I do however think there should be some kind of campaign to highlight the importance of checking over your shoulder on a push bike. I do not see many cyclists do it and it could save lives.



Do be careful if you're allowing yourself to be sandwiched by vans. It does show a lack of awareness as to what's going on around you. I'd recommend taking the lane. You should never be in a situation where you see breaking laws as an escape route.
Yes you do come over as attacking cyclists. It all went a bit Mike Vandeman for a while


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## Jody (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> 1. I'm a cyclist too.



That line is becoming so tiresome.


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

Jody said:


> That line is becoming so tiresome.



*tyresome


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## Jody (14 Nov 2017)

J1888 said:


> *tyresome



https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tiresome

?


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

Jody said:


> https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tiresome
> 
> ?



Don't worry


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## pawl (14 Nov 2017)

AndyRM said:


> Check out these lifesavers...
> 
> View attachment 383083





Oh dear not a good idea. The next complaint will be from some plank riding no hands trying to open the packet


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## bonker (14 Nov 2017)

Very timely. I was on the CS7 last night at a set of red lights, a guy on a push bike was taking a photo of the cycle box in front of the lights. Half of it (and the end of cycle lane) was filled by a double decker bus and the small gap left was blocked by a motorbike. I managed to squeezed through and sat in front of them both before it dawned on me what the other push bike rider was doing. Apologies to the photographer if you are on this forum.

I wanted to get to the front to practice a trackstand but the lights changed. Oh and so as to not go off post, I do look over my shoulder, often, usually to see if there another flippin' motorbike in the bike lane.


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## Maenchi (14 Nov 2017)

..............never knew it had a name....but always done it....


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## Electric_Andy (14 Nov 2017)

Many people break the rules occasionally. You just happened to have been called out on it by a cyclist. Your second mistake was whinging about it online, and using exaggerated claims about others' behaviour to justify your own wrongdoings. And yes, you should be doing a lifesaver when (illegally) in a cycle box, because you are moving off from a stationary position. Remember your training?


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## Racing roadkill (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I've cycled in London, drove a car in London and now use a Vespa. I've done all three over the last 20 years primarily in West London and find the following:
> 
> - Cyclists take risks, NEVER look over their shoulder if they're overtaking a vehicle or another cyclist. As a motorcyclist this is drummed into you when you are doing your CBT of full bike test - it's called a lifesaver check. Why is this?
> 
> ...



I see you’re new here.


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## mustang1 (14 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> Motorcyclists kill more people than cyclists. Go preach to them as they are the ones killing people.
> 
> Motorcyclists speed and take risks. Why is this?
> 
> ...


Remind me not to get on the wrong side of you in an argument.


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## mustang1 (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> haha.. yeah I think he got out a clipboard at one point. I moved into the cycle box as I was crammed between two vans and didn't want to be knocked by their wing mirrors - I could have stayed stationary and let them, go but then there's the danger that cars behind would follow closely and I would be stuck in the middle of the road. the safest course of action was to move into a near empty cycle box, but this is indeed breaking rule 178 of the highway code!
> 
> I didn't say all cyclists are knobs.
> 
> ...



Possibly for same reason drivers don't do it: they are not trained to. 
As a young kid, my dad told me always donthe lifesaver check regardless of what your mode of transport is. I even end up doing this when I'm the passenger! I've also been sternly told (as a kid) that I should do this when opening car doors. Since I was trained to do this, so I train my kids to as well.


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## mustang1 (14 Nov 2017)

Actually these days I see motorcyclists riding in the bike lane (not a segregated bike lane, but the one on the road).

However they do make an attempt to get out of the way if they can't get through a narrow gap but a cyclist can. Well, they try.


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## glasgowcyclist (14 Nov 2017)

mustang1 said:


> my dad told me always donthe lifesaver check regardless of what your mode of transport is.



The lifesaver check is so ingrained in me that I even do it when pushing a trolley in the supermarket.


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## derrick (14 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The lifesaver check is so ingrained in me that I even do it when pushing a trolley in the supermarket.


There should be a test before you drive a super market trolley,


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

derrick said:


> There should be a test before you drive a super market trolley,


The only test is "Am I in Waitrose?"


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## jefmcg (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> ok stay safe all, and Markymaprk pls remember to learn how to safety check


Judges: you have to take off points. He flubbed the dismount.


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

jefmcg said:


> Judges: you have to take off points. He flubbed the dismount.



He was never even on the horse


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

User said:


> Do they have one in Barking?



Absolutement non! Imagine all the free coffee and newspaper scroungers there. They'd be as well just opening it as a free newsagents!


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

I don't know about you lot, but I miss Fraser.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> cyclists going through red lights and on and on.



You have by your own admission in your OP gone through a red light, so clearly you seem to think it is ok. I do not. Please try and respect the law and not put yourself and others in danger through your reckless actions.


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> You have by your own admission in your OP gone through a red light, so clearly you seem to think it is ok. I do not. Please try and respect the law and not put yourself and others in danger through your reckless actions.



He's gone dude, let it go. I know it's hard to come to terms with, but he's gone, like, really gone


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## jarlrmai (14 Nov 2017)

aww he's gone and I missed it.


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## smutchin (14 Nov 2017)

Just so his brief time with us wasn't entirely wasted, shall we consider what we might learn from this thread?

For me, it reinforces my belief that new members should not be allowed to start new threads until they've reached a certain post count. For their own good.


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## Ming the Merciless (14 Nov 2017)

What is a Vespa anyway, is it like a motorised wasp?


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## J1888 (14 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> What is a Vespa anyway, is it like a motorised wasp?



I thought it was a curry. Or a type of match.


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## smutchin (14 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> What is a Vespa anyway, is it like a motorised wasp?





J1888 said:


> I thought it was a curry. Or a type of match.



I thought it was a cocktail of gin, vodka and kina lillet...


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## jefmcg (14 Nov 2017)

smutchin said:


> I thought it was a cocktail of gin, vodka and kina lillet...


You're all wrong 

_Hush! Hush! Whisper who dares!
Christopher Robin is saying his prayers._


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## Firestorm (14 Nov 2017)

Vespa riders are not proper motorcyclists
Discuss......


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

I feed my V-Max on a diet of crushed Vespas when i can't afford to buy real food for it.


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## mustang1 (14 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> The lifesaver check is so ingrained in me that I even do it when pushing a trolley in the supermarket.


I know right! Ditto. But I even do it when I'm walking down the street!


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## Markymark (14 Nov 2017)

Firestorm said:


> Vespa riders are not proper motorcyclists
> Discuss......


There is no discussion.


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## raleighnut (14 Nov 2017)

[QUOTE 5040004, member: 43827"]Is that a euphemism?[/QUOTE]
He claims to be on a Vespa 200, of course it has 'fizzled out' I'm surprised it got to the bottom of the street.


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## jefmcg (14 Nov 2017)

J1888 said:


> He was never even on the horse


You've got the wrong event: he was riding a troll. Quite proficiently, at first.


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## jarlrmai (14 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> What is a Vespa anyway, is it like a motorised wasp?



I thought it was the baddy in Terrahawks


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## ORO (14 Nov 2017)

My 40 year old moped eats Vespa scooters for breakfast!


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## subaqua (14 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I would say if a cyclist is checking over his/ her shoulder, it means they _want _to overtake, not that they should be or are going to overtake.
> 
> You've brought up another excellent point though



I learned to ride a bicycle before I learned to drive . My initial driving instructor was astounded I did blind spot checks when moving off for the first time . 

Why do I do them ? because it’s what I was taught to do on cycling proficiency as a kid . I still do it now , some people call it muscle memory , it’s not it’s a neuro logical thing. I do it when walking . 

So you say “ never” I say you are utter wrong and I sense trolling afoot .


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## Drago (14 Nov 2017)

Vespa 200 = a 125 with 200 barrel and piston undeclared to the DVLA.


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## MarkF (14 Nov 2017)

Firestorm said:


> Vespa riders are not proper motorcyclists
> Discuss......



I have a proper motorcycle and 1962 Vespa, I commute on the motorbike because they are so wanky only a loser would want to steal it and be seen on one. The Vespa is for getting dressed up and good times. I use both in ASL's with never an issue from cyclists, but mostly (90%+ of the time) I stop further forward......because of cars in them. I don't make a big deal of things unless I am on my cycle, then I like to get to ride to the front, point at the (car covered) box, paddle backwards to the bumper and take my time at green.


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## generaldogsbody (15 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> I feed my V-Max on a diet of crushed Vespas when i can't afford to buy real food for it.


Iv'e got a vmax 1200 it's 94 in a 2001 frame,it's my nearly finished project.Also got a TDM 850 3vd, good old bike.


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## raleighnut (15 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> Vespa 200 = a 125 with 200 barrel and piston undeclared to the DVLA.


Probably.


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## subaqua (15 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I'm smelling a flounce.




Have you been to them hipster food shops again !


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## raleighnut (15 Nov 2017)

I hope @Fraser1 comes back or starts another thread, this one has been such fun.


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## winjim (15 Nov 2017)

raleighnut said:


> I hope @Fraser1 comes back or starts another thread, this one has been such fun.


It brightened up my morning.


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## Drago (15 Nov 2017)

generaldogsbody said:


> Iv'e got a vmax 1200 it's 94 in a 2001 frame,it's my nearly finished project.Also got a TDM 850 3vd, good old bike.



I've a '91 American Import 'Max, full grunt model, and a '91 FZR600 in Kosinski colours. Funny you mention the TDM, because I'm keeping my eyes peeled for an example of the closely related TRX to rebuild.

Here's a scooter rider in full control of their vehicle...


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## DaveReading (15 Nov 2017)

NickNick said:


> Its been a pretty poor example of drive by trolling.



Hmmm. Five more pages of posts after the OP has left the scene. I'd say that's pretty successful trolling.


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## Nigel-YZ1 (15 Nov 2017)

Oh well while we're waiting...

I rode a moped once.


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## Drago (15 Nov 2017)

DaveReading said:


> Hmmm. Five more pages of posts after the OP has left the scene. I'd say that's pretty successful trolling.



Damn good first effort for sure.


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## Firestorm (15 Nov 2017)

MarkF said:


> I have a proper motorcycle and 1962 Vespa, I commute on the motorbike because they are so wanky only a loser would want to steal it and be seen on one. The Vespa is for getting dressed up and good times. I use both in ASL's with never an issue from cyclists, but mostly (90%+ of the time) I stop further forward......because of cars in them. I don't make a big deal of things unless I am on my cycle, then I like to get to ride to the front, point at the (car covered) box, paddle backwards to the bumper and take my time at green.


Thats a vintage scooter, a completely different ball game to what I am sure was a modern twist and go in the op


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## Ming the Merciless (15 Nov 2017)

Nigel-YZ1 said:


> Oh well while we're waiting...
> 
> I rode a moped once.



That means you can also use "I'm a mopedist as well..." In any debate


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## Profpointy (15 Nov 2017)

Whilst we're on about two wheeled riding, wouldn't it be a good idea for cyclists do do a look over the shoulder before a manouever; a 'lifesaver" the motorcyclists call it


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## ianrauk (15 Nov 2017)

Shame I missed this thread when it first appeared as I really wanted to ask the OP why do the majority of motorcyclists feel entitled to use the cyclists only ASL


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## mjr (15 Nov 2017)

YukonBoy said:


> That means you can also use "I'm a mopedist as well..." In any debate


Isn't it "mopederast" then?


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## glasgowcyclist (15 Nov 2017)

mjr said:


> Isn't it "mopederast" then?



Bloody mopedant...


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## Profpointy (15 Nov 2017)

ianrauk said:


> Shame I missed this thread when it first appeared as I really wanted to ask the OP why do the majority of motorcyclists feel entitled to use the cyclists only ASL



Well since cyclists jump red lights they get a head start anyway.


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## generaldogsbody (15 Nov 2017)

Drago said:


> I've a '91 American Import 'Max, full grunt model, and a '91 FZR600 in Kosinski colours. Funny you mention the TDM, because I'm keeping my eyes peeled for an example of the closely related TRX to rebuild.
> 
> Here's a scooter rider in full control of their vehicle...
> 
> ...


Mine's a full power US import,it was unregistered.That's why i put it in a registered 2001 powder coated frame,had to replace the forks,carbs,fuel tank and exhaust.For what it's cost me,i could have bought one ready to ride.It's been fun thou,all those nice summer nights in my shed.


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## Lonestar (15 Nov 2017)

Profpointy said:


> Well since cyclists jump red lights they get a head start anyway.



I think you meant all cyclists,pal.

What happened to the OP? Did he flounce?


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## Drago (16 Nov 2017)

Flounced like John Inman in a Victoria sponge cookery class


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## User16625 (19 Nov 2017)

glasgowcyclist said:


> Welcome to Cyclechat!
> 
> You've made a great start by using your very first post to point out how you can't follow the Highway Code or Road Traffic Act and then lecture everyone else.
> 
> Well done!



Actually I think he has a fair point. Is it really so bad that he used one of those cycle box things? How was he posing a threat to cyclists that are next to him? 



Markymark said:


> Motorcyclists kill more people than cyclists. Go preach to them as they are the ones killing people.
> 
> Motorcyclists speed and take risks. Why is this?
> 
> ...



"recognise our safety is more important than 5s of your time". You might as well have said "recognise our safety is more important than yours". I was literally expecting you to say that while reading your post. 

"there are dicks in all walks of life but motorcyclists do attract them". I agree OPs statement with which you base that bit on was a bit condescending, but how is reciprocating it not a bad thing? 

There seems to be a significant increase in bitterness on this forum lately.


----------



## glasgowcyclist (20 Nov 2017)

RideLikeTheStig said:


> Actually I think he has a fair point.



He doesn't.

In summary: it's poor roadcraft, it's selfish, it's intimidating, it compromises the safety of legitimate users, and last but not least it's illegal.

It is to be discouraged at every opportunity so that the abuse of the facility doesn't become the norm.


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## Ajax Bay (20 Nov 2017)

Markymark said:


> I'm smelling a flounce.





Lonestar said:


> What happened to the OP?


The OP opened this thread at 10am Tuesday (his/her first post) and was last seen at 1150 Tuesday (Post #69 on this thread) which @Markymark immediately called out as a 'flounce'. Must have been a quiet morning in the London office.


DaveReading said:


> I'd say that's pretty successful trolling.





Drago said:


> Damn good first effort for sure.


----------



## Andy_R (20 Nov 2017)

User said:


> *Slaps @J1888 with a wet haddock*


What are you doing with a wet haddock on CC? Put it back in the fridge and go and wash your hands. And sanitise that keyboard while you're at it...


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## ChopperGav (21 Nov 2017)

Just for the record I commute by bike and I shoulder check (a lot) always when moving in the carriageway, overtaking slower traffic etc etc, so not all don't. I do however ride m/c's as well and had it drummed into me.


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## raleighnut (21 Nov 2017)

ChopperGav said:


> Just for the record I commute by bike and I shoulder check (a lot) always when moving in the carriageway, overtaking slower traffic etc etc, so not all don't. I do however ride m/c's as well and had it drummed into me.


I'd look behind a lot if I was wobbling up the road on one of those too.  Especially on the Mk 1s and yes I was there in the 70s, even had a mate with one of the 5speed ones.


----------



## Profpointy (21 Nov 2017)

ChopperGav said:


> Just for the record I commute by bike and I shoulder check (a lot) always when moving in the carriageway, overtaking slower traffic etc etc, so not all don't. I do however ride m/c's as well and had it drummed into me.



But we've just heard that cyclists never do that


----------



## ChopperGav (21 Nov 2017)

Profpointy said:


> But we've just heard that cyclists never do that


I must have been mistaken then, oops. 
Just to clarify I don't commute on the Chopper, well not that often.


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## Profpointy (21 Nov 2017)

ChopperGav said:


> I must have been mistaken then, oops.
> Just to clarify I don't commute on the Chopper, well not that often.



Pish taking aside, the lifesaver thing was drummed into me from motorcyle lessons as well and the extra discipline of observing greatly proved my car driving too.


----------



## raleighnut (21 Nov 2017)

ChopperGav said:


> I must have been mistaken then, oops.
> Just to clarify I don't commute on the Chopper, well not that often.


You'd have thigh muscles like Chris Boardman if you commuted on it regularly though.


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## ChopperGav (21 Nov 2017)

Profpointy said:


> Pish taking aside, the lifesaver thing was drummed into me from motorcyle lessons as well and the extra discipline of observing greatly proved my car driving too.


Exactly, I've always maintained that every road user should take a CBT and spend some time on a cycle, that way we might all start having a bit more respect for each other.


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## ChopperGav (21 Nov 2017)

raleighnut said:


> You'd have thigh muscles like Chris Boardman if you commuted on it regularly though.


My commute is too short for the Chopper to build up a head of steam so I only use it for sportive centuries.


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## Crankarm (23 Nov 2017)

Fraser1 said:


> I've explained the reasons why I went into the cycle box, but fair enough rules are rules.
> 
> Drago - as a motorcyclist you must notice how many cyclists don't look over there shoulder? I commute everyday and they simply never do.



I do.


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## confusedcyclist (24 Nov 2017)

We can spend the rest of the year going around the houses (hey, it's nearly Christmas!) about how some cyclists do dumb shoot, and some motorists do the exact same. Now I think we can all agree we have a responsibility to look out for ourselves, and more importantly the welfare of other road users, and this can be done by simply following the highway code and using the road courteously... now, if only I could find my copy of the highway code... oh forget it, lets have a mince pie.


----------

