# Garmin 705 or SatMap ?



## itisaboutthebike (2 Oct 2007)

Thinking about getting either the 705 or SatMap.

I know the Garmin 705 is not released yet, but does anyone have a Satmap ? IS it any good ? can you use it for training ?

Any info greatefully recieved !


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## itisaboutthebike (24 Oct 2007)

Well lots of people have read this - but no replies ! Oh dear !


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## john59 (25 Oct 2007)

http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modul...pic&t=53719&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=90

John


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## Rob S (8 Nov 2007)

itisaboutthebike said:


> Well lots of people have read this - but no replies ! Oh dear !



When you started the thread neither were released.....but Satmap is now and here's my review


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## Dormouse (8 Nov 2007)

SatMap review in latest Trail magazine. They sound keen on it apart from a rubber cover for USB port that keeps falling off. They also rave about the quality of the box that it comes in! See also Trail forum on countrywalking.co.uk.


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## andrew_s (9 Nov 2007)

What do you want out of it?

If you stick to roads and are just interested in getting to where you want and having a record of where you've been and how fast etc, the 705 is better.

If you go off road, or want to know about the area you are passing through, the Satmap is better.


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## itisaboutthebike (14 Nov 2007)

Thanks everyone.

Basically I want to be able to set a route (via tracklogs or whatever is the in-vogue routeplanner) download it to the device and follow the route - plus training stuff like speed/distance/HRM stuff etc.


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## will (17 Nov 2007)

*Heart Cadence Power*

It certainly depends what you want. The 705 also provides Heart, Cadence and even Power compatibility.


I don't think Sat Map does any of those. 

I love my edge 305 and will likely get the 705. As an aside for mapping I have used a Garmin etrex vista C (which for years has provided navigation and color mapping for a bike) its only drawback for me was no HRM/Cadence


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## jashburnham (20 Nov 2007)

will said:


> It certainly depends what you want. The 705 also provides Heart, Cadence and even Power compatibility.
> 
> 
> I don't think Sat Map does any of those.
> ...



+1 for the Edge. I have a 305 but will be getting a 705, quite annoyed that I bought a 305 now; clearly it was just a stopgap product, the 705 looks the real deal.


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## Peter (30 Dec 2007)

Does anyone have a release date for the Garmin 705? Was hoping to put it on my Xmas wishlist


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## skids (30 Dec 2007)

I was hoping to add one to my Christmas list too......

All I can find out is 'expected release Q1 2008'

So it's on my birthday list instead!


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## skids (17 Jan 2008)

I've just been advised that stock of the 705 is expected in 4 to 6 weeks.


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## jashburnham (18 Jan 2008)

Woo hoo, finally. Cannot wait to get my hands on one of these!


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## Peter (18 Jan 2008)

Fantastic - I've pre ordered, so hopefully will not have to wait much longer.
Better be worth it !!


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## itisaboutthebike (25 Feb 2008)

Has anyone got a Garmin 705 yet ?

Intersted to kno if it lives up the the hype !


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## yello (25 Feb 2008)

I'd find it difficult, personally, to justify the significant price difference between the 305 and 705. I have a 305 and it does everything I want. The 705, at twice the price, doesn't have twice the functionality for my purposes.


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## will (25 Feb 2008)

if you buy a 705 almost certainly hugely cheaper from the USA - the map prce is still pretty sick (hoping my old Garmin maps from Etrex Vista C will be compatible.

Garmin has been skinning europeans for ever. I have three garmin devices all bought on EBAY at savings of hundred of dollars each.


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## itisaboutthebike (26 Feb 2008)

Oh yes I know - I've just bought a brand new JAMIS Exile 631 singlepeed frame off Ebay from the US - $170 (plus shipiing of course) ! Its fantastic - just what I need for my 8 speed hubb gear commuter bike.

Yes I'll be looking at the US Ebay prices for the 705 when they appear.

Could be some good deals on a 305.

Is it possible to create a route on say tracklogs and download it to a 305 ? Or is this just possible on the newer 605/705 ?


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## yello (2 Mar 2008)

itisaboutthebike said:


> Is it possible to create a route on say tracklogs and download it to a 305 ?



In a word, yes. 

I use http://www.mapmyride.com/ to create the route, export it as a Edge course file (.crs) and upload it to the Edge. 

I reckon you're right; I wouldn't be surprised to see some decent deals on the 305 when the 705 is released.


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## itisaboutthebike (3 Apr 2008)

Anyone got a garmin 705 yet ?

If so how is it ?


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## Bollo (3 Apr 2008)

Yep, had mine for a day or two now with the Topo map of the UK. To do an in-depth review would get me the sack, but first impressions are:


*Good*
Build quality is great.
Unit is relatively easy to install and use.
Highly configurable
Extensive training info
On-road navigation is good with listed turns and road names (advantage over OS)
Despite the map quality (see below), defined routes are clear enough to be useful.
Interface with Garmin Connect is simple - GC is looking like a tidy tool, although its still early in its development.
Phone Support is good

*Indifferent*
Screen is a bit too small compared with satmap.
Displayed map quality is very ordinary when compared with OS - I wouldn't like to use it for off-road or hiking.

*Bad*
Forget auto-routing unless you want to ride your bike on the M3 - not an issue for me as I like to handcraft routes anyway.
Supporting software (MapSource, driver installation etc) is shocking! Get something like Tracklogs (my fav) or Memorymap if you're serious about creating routes.
Manuals - soft and hard copy are equally useless. Expect to become a regular on garmin forums.
Map installation is a pain (but good support solved this)


Also worth mentioning that I had a scare the first time I charged it. The battery indicator only showed the battery as half charged, despite 12hrs of charging. I did a full discharge, followed by a recharge and this seems to have solved the problem.

If anyone has any specific questions, list 'em here or PM me. No promises at the 'mo, but I'll do my best.


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## CopperBrompton (3 Apr 2008)

What issue do you have with Mapsource? For me, that is one of the greatest strengths of Garmin units - I find the software excellent.

I'm also surprised that the manual is 'useless' - Garmin manuals are usually very good.

Ben


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## CopperBrompton (3 Apr 2008)

What extra functionality does it offer?


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## Bollo (3 Apr 2008)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> What issue do you have with Mapsource? For me, that is one of the greatest strengths of Garmin units - I find the software excellent.
> 
> I'm also surprised that the manual is 'useless' - Garmin manuals are usually very good.
> 
> Ben



My real issues are with the map installation and the driver support for transferring data from the unit. I found mapsource functional but clunky when compared with third party mapping software, particularly tracklogs, which is generally very intuitive. I know with these things that you get used to doing things a certain way, so I'm not going to stick the boot right in.

I'll stand by by comments on the manual though. The full owner's manual feels more like the 'getting started' guide. Playing around with the unit, I've found a host of functions not even hinted at in the manual. For example, the whole section on map use covers one and a half A5 pages. There's no mention of the digital compass screen or the route guide screen and only two sentences on the elevation plot, neither of which mention that you can set the horizontal scale using the joystick. The manual appears better when describing the training functionality. I guess this is where they took stuff from the 205/305.


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## CopperBrompton (4 Apr 2008)

I'm surprised to hear the 705 is light on tracklogging, as you'd think that would be a key training need.

I don't need the fitness stuff, so I have the Vista HCx.


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## itisaboutthebike (4 Apr 2008)

Hi,
can you elaborate on what you mean about lap history ?

Presumably tou can download a route (from say tracklogs) and follow it ? I'm thinking Audax type stuff here.


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## Bollo (4 Apr 2008)

Nope, 705 logs tracks. The format is 'tcx' which Garmin Connect takes as is but you will have to convert to gpx if you want to download to tracklogs. Tracklogs doesn't seem to recognise the 705 as a device.

You can download a route from tracklogs, again as a gpx, but there are problems. Once on the 705, the tracklogs tracks sometimes don't co-locate with the vector roads and paths. This means that the directions are sometimes a bit skitty.

I'm still playing with all of this so there may be better ways of doing things.


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## skids (4 Apr 2008)

Hi Bollo,
Any pointers on the digital compass screen or the route guide screen (or maybe a link to a useful forum)?

I'm pretty pleased with mine (but agree some things could be better). I've found http://www.oe-files.de/oefiles/gmaps/tcx_to_kml_html helpful.


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## Bollo (4 Apr 2008)

skids said:


> Hi Bollo,
> Any pointers on the digital compass screen or the route guide screen (or maybe a link to a useful forum)?
> 
> I'm pretty pleased with mine (but agree some things could be better). I've found http://www.oe-files.de/oefiles/gmaps/tcx_to_kml_html helpful.



Hiya,

Not used the compass screen. The route guide screen is one of the screens that you cycle through using the mode button while you're navigating (set a 'where to'). I've not used it directly, I've just relied on the 705 flipping from one of the 'bike' screens as you approach a junction.

For converting the tcx files, I've used something called 'tcx experience', but I'm buggered if I can find the link!


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## confused (15 Apr 2008)

Just got myself a garmin 705 and am so far quite happy with its functionality as a cycle computer, HRM, data-logger, GPS recorder etc. (only been out with it twice so far though).

However - I didn't find any web reviews that mention what 'built-in basemap' map the 705 ships with so went ahead and took a gamble on the 705 (over the cheaper 305), and (unless I've missed something on a settings menu) it is pretty poor considering that it is designed for cyclists - so far as I can tell it has only A-Roads, Motorways and railway lines.


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## redfox (15 Apr 2008)

Basemaps are worse than no map. Major roads only drawn to a level of accuracy that would have made a 16th century cartographer blush and non-routeable to boot!

Your going to have to spend more money I am afraid!


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## Bollo (15 Apr 2008)

confused said:


> Just got myself a garmin 705 and am so far quite happy with its functionality as a cycle computer, HRM, data-logger, GPS recorder etc. (only been out with it twice so far though).
> 
> However - I didn't find any web reviews that mention what 'built-in basemap' map the 705 ships with so went ahead and took a gamble on the 705 (over the cheaper 305), and (unless I've missed something on a settings menu) it is pretty poor considering that it is designed for cyclists - so far as I can tell it has only A-Roads, Motorways and railway lines.



Yep, garmin are pretty coy about this. Luckily I found out before the unit arrived an bought myself the topo map. This gives you the routing etc. If you're just into road biking then I'd stick with one of the road-only map products rather than worry about the contours and feature info on the topo maps (they ain't that good anyways)

Also, the routing algorithm in the 705 isn't cycle specific, so it'll happily send me down the M3 to work. "Sorry officer, my bike computer said it was ok!". To create a cycle-friendly route, you'll need to get to grips with Garmin's MapSource application, which comes free with any map product or can be downloaded from the web site. This is worthy of an essay in itself, but to summarise you need to.......

Draw a 'route' with the autorouting enabled to fill in the gaps between waypoints.
If the autorouting chooses a way that you don't like, you can add further waypoints to force it.
Download the route to the 705
If the route is >20-30 miles, the 705 will report that the route has been truncated.
You look at the 705 route. It is clearly not right.
You consult the manual. Hahahaha you're funny, Bollo.
You consult the web.
You download a program called wingdb that will convert a Garmin Route to a Garmin Track
Copy the Garmin Track on to your 705
Now navigate according to the track. Easy!
To summarise, great hardware, shocking software.


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## redfox (16 Apr 2008)

Alternatively, you can use MapSource to draw a track rather than a route which avoids steps 2 to 8 on the above advice. (You might need to make the track editing toolbar visible from the view menu first).

The track design tools do not feature auto-routing, which is usually a good thing because auto-routing will increase the number of points in a track by several orders of magnitude - reducing the length of track that can be stored before you hit your GPS's limit.


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## Bollo (16 Apr 2008)

redfox said:


> Alternatively, you can use MapSource to draw a track rather than a route which avoids steps 2 to 8 on the above advice. (You might need to make the track editing toolbar visible from the view menu first).
> 
> The track design tools do not feature auto-routing, which is usually a good thing because auto-routing will increase the number of points in a track by several orders of magnitude - reducing the length of track that can be stored before you hit your GPS's limit.



You can, but the autorouting with routes on MapSource does have its uses, as it follows the roads faithfully, so all you have to do is click at the junctions. Converting a route to a track using wingdb is a pain in buttocks, but after you've done it once, you can usually do the same thing again in less than a minute. This is still a lot quicker than creating a reasonably accurate track by following the roads manually. Also, if you're using the topo maps and are colour-blind like me, its sometimes very difficult to make out the roads from contours and the other random hatchings on Mapsource at all, so autorouting helps with this. A user option to change feature colours? How 21st Century! Don't be silly.

As for the track limit, its pretty high on the 705 (50,000 points?). Windgb does a good job balancing the number of points with track accuracy, but you can always filter as well. Several orders of magnitude is a little OTT, my last route (45 miles on lots of fiddly unclassified roads) took 845 track points when converted using wingdb. I doubt you'd be able to draw the same route with 8 points.

From venturing on to the garmin forums, there sometimes seems to be a perverse pleasure in these 'features', as they make it all so 'complicated' and 'technical'. The 705, and more to the point Mapsource, are consumer products, and should behave consistently and predictably with the minimum of fuss. Mapsource is certainly more like prototype or research bit of code, where you're always fighting and working around impementation issues.

Ranty rant rant!


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## andrew_s (16 Apr 2008)

confused said:


> Just got myself a garmin 705 and am so far quite happy with its functionality as a cycle computer, HRM, data-logger, GPS recorder etc. (only been out with it twice so far though).
> 
> However - I didn't find any web reviews that mention what 'built-in basemap' map the 705 ships with so went ahead and took a gamble on the 705 (over the cheaper 305), and (unless I've missed something on a settings menu) it is pretty poor considering that it is designed for cyclists - so far as I can tell it has only A-Roads, Motorways and railway lines.



The built-in base map is fairly useless.

To get decent maps on screen, you have to pay extra for the mapping data.
Options are (with GPSW links):
City Navigator UK&Ireland on SD card £50
City Navigator Europe on SD card £80
Mapsource Europe Metroguide CD £113
Mapsource City Navigator Europe DVD £140
Mapsource Topo GB £150

The SD cards just plug in and give you the detailed and accurate maps that you want. They also allow auto-routing, so you can drive the pointer to a place, press the enter button, and get navigated there. It's also fairly simple to set up a route in a similar fashion (or at least it is on my 60CSx).
However, they aren't usable on your PC. You'd have to set up routes using an incarnation of google maps, memoryMap, or something.
The cards will almost certainly be copy-protected.

Mapsource Metroguide allows routes to be set up on the PC and downloaded onto the GPS. You can also download the maps onto you own micro-SD cards. However, although there is auto routing on the PC, there isn't on the GPS unless you get one of the applications that hack the data to allow it - google "metrogold".

Mapsource City Navigator allows auto routing on the PC, and on the GPS using data that's been downloaded onto SD card

Topo GB is as for City Navigator, but covers GB only, and gives extra background data in the form of contours, streams, some footpaths, areas of woodland. This is useful off road, but if you are on road it's just extra clutter that makes it harder to see where the roads are.

Licencing on Mapsource maps is that you can create as many SD cards as you want, but they will only work with 2 GPS units that you've registered with Garmin. 
What some people do is create the cards and sell the CDs on ebay so that the purchaser can use the 2nd GPS registration. If they then upgrade their own GPS, they have to buy another (up to date) copy of the mapsource data.

Auto routing means that you can create a route from a small number of well separated waypoints, and the GPS will navigate between them, so to go from Gloucester to Heathrow, I might have points at Sapperton, Cerney Wick, Hannington, Compton, Henley, White Waltham, Windsor, Horton and Heathrow, and then leave the GPS to pick the shortest route from point to point and direct me along it.
Without auto-routing, I'd have to put a point on every turn (at least), then follow the on-screen arrow at each junction.


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## CopperBrompton (17 Apr 2008)

Wow, sounds like the 705 isn't the device to get if you want to navigate. With the Vista HCx and City Navigator mapping, there isn't any of that nonsense, and Mapsource works beautifully.


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## Bollo (17 Apr 2008)

Once you've got used to the idea of the pfaff of designing routes, the 705 is great for navigation. Its mapsource that I have issues with.


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## itisaboutthebike (21 Apr 2008)

I think that one of the biggest drawbacks of the 705 - from the posts here - is that there isn't a dedicated 'bike mode' when you want to use to it to navigate somewhere ie if you're not careful you'll end up on a motorway (thats if I'm correct in what I'm interperting on some of the posts)

You'd have thought Garmin would have nailed that one for starters - perhaps they've realised and a 'fix' will come in a future firmware upgrade ?


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## CopperBrompton (21 Apr 2008)

Really? I love Mapsource - it's my biggest reason for sticking with Garmin GPS units. Under a minute to plot a fiddly 20-mile backroads route - what's not to love?

Ben


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## itisaboutthebike (21 Apr 2008)

No - I mean on the fly when you're on the bike.

I am incorrect ?


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## CopperBrompton (21 Apr 2008)

Mapsource is the PC software. If you have issues with on-the-fly use, then that's with the 705 itself. I've not used it, so don't know how it compares to other Garmins.

When the 705 is connected to your PC, you ought to be able to use Mapsource to set the preferences. Set small roads to maximum preference and highways to minimum, and it should generally then give sensible cycle routes (though it won't know about off-road options).


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## Bollo (23 Apr 2008)

Ben Lovejoy said:


> When the 705 is connected to your PC, you ought to be able to use Mapsource to set the preferences. Set small roads to maximum preference and highways to minimum, and it should generally then give sensible cycle routes (though it won't know about off-road options).



You can, but its hard work (setting roads and areas to avoid) and the results still seem to treat you as a very slow car, rather than as a bike. Its not helped by some of the options which are very Americanised (is the M3 an interstate highway between the states of Hampshire and Surrey? - whats a Collector Road?!?)

I don't believe full autorouting (i.e. just setting the start and end and letting the device do the rest) for cycling is doable anyway, as finding a safe enjoyable route that meets your needs relies either some local knowledge or a bit of research. I can think of some sections of A road that are fine for cycling and some local backroads that are evil racetracks.


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## CopperBrompton (23 Apr 2008)

Agreed - I generally plot cycle routes using Mapsource, but with those prefs set I find it usually gives pretty good routes if I decide to wander off-track and then want it to navigate me home.


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## itisaboutthebike (25 Apr 2008)

Crikey - I didn' think when I started this post it would have over 5,000 hits and 45 posts !

Just goes to show how much interest there is in these products.


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## skids (25 Apr 2008)

Another routing question (great advice on here BTW - thanks). I tried out the Mapsource Route / Convert to track malarkey today and it worked fine. Question I have is that when I follow a route I've set up on my etrex Venturethe instructions I get say turn right / left etc but the route instructions on the 705 say go East / West etc. Any ideas?


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## Bollo (25 Apr 2008)

skids said:


> Another routing question (great advice on here BTW - thanks). I tried out the Mapsource Route / Convert to track malarkey today and it worked fine. Question I have is that when I follow a route I've set up on my etrex Venturethe instructions I get say turn right / left etc but the route instructions on the 705 say go East / West etc. Any ideas?



Mine gives left and right turns. This is a bit of a long shot, but do you have the map Orientation (Settings->Map) set to 'North Up' rather than 'Track Up'?


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## skids (26 Apr 2008)

Thanks Bollo but I tried both. Looks like I've got it sorted though. I've created the route in Mapsource, downloaded the maps and waypoints to the Edge directly, saved the routes (outbound and inbound) to the SD card directly and it all seems fine (could the omission of the wingdb conversion be the remedy?). I've got a century ride to do tomorrow (half of it on roads I've never been on before) so it should give me a good chance to see if I've got things sorted at last (I'll be taking my etrex venture along in my saddlebag just in case).


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